# Generalization / Correction Question



## Nancy Jocoy

Beau is 10 months and coming on in his training (cadaver) and has started working unknowns. No issues so far there but......

In the house (he is outside most of the day to be acclimatized to the weather, and inside in his crate at night) but when he comes in, he still wants to jump on everything - including our bed, which is off limits and always has been. Dragging him off of these things (or bringing him inside on lead) and redirecting is getting old and I have had enough. 

I think it is just a big game to him to see what he can get into and have me chasing after him etc. Maybe by paying attention to it at all fuels it. I do spend a lot of time with him during the day in short increments (I work from home)

I can't ALWAYS ensure stuff is cleared from tables and counters and that the bedroom door is shut. He is a pretty hard puppy and corrections don't seem to shut him down.

If I put a drag line an a prong on him and start correcting for these behaviors in my house...do you think it would impair his ability to do building searches elsewhere and jump all over the things forbidden in my house? If not, how should I fix it without setting him up to avoid these things elsewhere?

Grim has never done this stuff but can go into a strange building and walk all over the counter tops etc while not counter surfing in my house but I don't know how we got there; he was 2 when I got him. I would like to be able to chill out with this puppy off lead in my house without him being on a line or under a place command.


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## Joby Becker

> I can't ALWAYS ensure stuff is cleared from tables and counters


you could...LOL...
but i know what you mean..

Not sure about your field of work that much at all, or your dog.

But I would say there is definitely a "good" chance it "could" effect your work with him. If you are able to take him to alot of places to let him climb all over stuff, that seems like it would help the dog differentiate "work time" and rest time boundaries...

that being said, many people that have other types of "working" dogs do not keep their pups and young dogs in training, and even adults, running loose in their houses, expecting them to be model house dogs, for long periods because of the reasons you are concerned with...although I would think with adults it would be easier to do without having major negatives.

I am sure there are people that will say it can be done, and it can, with some people and some dogs, in some situations, but there are also plenty of dogs that have issues that were caused by the doing this.

I would think the place commands, or a "safe area" is the way to go...then you can correct for not complying with the commands given, in stead of correcting for behaviors that might be necessary for him to do later.


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## Gerald Dunn

sometimes a great working dog, does not a great house pet make.

I like that =D>


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## Joby Becker

I took that part out...LOL...did not want to get everyone riled up...and take away from this thread...


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## julie allen

I think you can teach him to stay off of furniture inside, yet still climb like a goat at other places. However, depending on the dog, and type of correction, could determine his reaction. 

I don't mind if mine sit in a chair or get on my bed, but I teach off when I don't want them there, and certain things are off limits period. Works well for me.

Example, I work 24 hour shifts, my 17 year old son cares for the dogs when I'm gone. Last night we had an issue with the gate, so he brings in the 20 month old and the 9 month old mals. In the house, no crates, and leaves a sonic bag with a burger and onion rings on the stove. Stays at his dads house. Both dogs met me at the door, with toys, not a thing amiss. Though they slept on the couches lol. 
Both dogs will happily jump on any object you ask, or they feel they should when working/training.


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## Nancy Jocoy

Actually now that Grim is retired and can chill inside most of the day he has become my housedog and it's kind of nice...though it can sometimes be annoying when he pushes balls at me while I am working. But he was always able to come in at night and chill with us while we just hung out.

Beau was not bought to be a pet - just wishful thinking about having it "both ways" though glad y'al don't think it is an utter failure if a working dog is not the so good in the house. At least he is housebroken.....Guess I will make him a master of the place command though - that one is going pretty well. Settles just fine in the crate, too.

Where it could be a problem is if he does not make the cut and winds up washed out - more of a risk with a puppy - but then you would not worry about the consequences of fixing it.

----------------

Ok Julie.....HOW did you get there?..........I don't think I would even trust Grim with me being gone and a bag of food on the counter.


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## Joby Becker

Nancy Jocoy said:


> Actually now that Grim is retired and can chill inside most of the day he has become my housedog and it's kind of nice...though it can sometimes be annoying when he pushes balls at me while I am working. But he was always able to come in at night and chill with us while we just hung out.
> 
> Beau was not bought to be a pet - just wishful thinking about having it "both ways" though glad y'al don't think it is an utter failure if a working dog is not the so good in the house. At least he is housebroken.....Guess I will make him a master of the place command though - that one is going pretty well. Settles just fine in the crate, too.
> 
> Where it could be a problem is if he does not make the cut and winds up washed out - more of a risk with a puppy - but then you would not worry about the consequences of fixing it.
> 
> ----------------
> 
> Ok Julie.....HOW did you get there?..........I don't think I would even trust Grim with me being gone and a bag of food on the counter.


just remember dogs are all different...and your dog is going to be expected to do this stuff everywhere, he is not gonna be a sport dog on a field. I think stopping of eating your food would not be as much of an issue as some of the other things, since he will not be allowed to eat food on the job anyhow will he?


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## Nancy Jocoy

Joby Becker said:


> just remember dogs are all different...and your dog is going to be expected to do this stuff everywhere, he is not gonna be a sport dog on a field. I think stopping of eating your food would not be as much of an issue as some of the other things, since he will not be allowed to eat food on the job anyhow will he?


No food. Actually food is set out as a distracter at some trainings.


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## Joby Becker

Nancy Jocoy said:


> No food. Actually food is set out as a distracter at some trainings.


again, not into your field at all, but I would guess that if you take the dog to training places now, and let him be a nut there, often, what you do at home "may not" have nearly as much influence, like say if you just hammered him at home for all this crap for 6 months , then after that, started training with him and expecting him to do it...

I think that way it would be more clear to the dog...

it really depends a lot on the dog, the relationship, how you do things, etc..
with some dogs it would not matter much, some it would matter a lot...depending...


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## Jim Delbridge

This is a basic obedience question. It relies on timing and consistency. Using a lead is a crutch that really only needs to be used if the dog gets into a mode of doing something just to test the rules. On my routine obedience walks, the dogs climb picnic tables, go through cars, go onto playground equipment, do slides, etc. at my behest. In the house, they can get on my futon in my office as its covered in horse blankets and there for them (or me on long nights with lots of death calls). When they go through the rest of the house, they are expected to be on off-lead obedience rules. There are four cats in the house (married to a vet who is a cat person) and this is more training to control prey drive. If a feral cat gets into their two acres, it will not live long.
The point is that as with most human/dog issues in households, the issue is with the human. The dog will live up to your expectations if you communicate them well, succinctly, and in a timely manner. This means you can correct when the dog is looking at the sofa not in mid-leap when it is too late. If you are slow, then you need the "OFF!" command to be delivered quickly. As with kids, one slip can take many many times to repair to convince the dog that you going, "ok, just this once." was indeed an exception and not the rule.
I have one cat that loves to stalk any of my dogs. He will come down from on high with all claws exposed and intends to plant them in the dog's back as a landing pad. He is fifteen and doesn't realize that one mis-step by one of my 80 pounders will cripple him or worse. My working dogs know I expect them to evade him without harm. My four year old is now at that grand point where I can park him at the open door of my office and he will stay there, but not allow any cats to enter. He will not pursue, but a smile and a growl gets his point across. Did I train him to explicitly do this? No. Did I continually make my desires known to him? Yes.

Timing, Consistency, and delivery is pretty much the key.

Oh, when I learned to vocally correct a dog efficiently, I also learned that it can move obnoxious humans a good six feet back as well. Since at the time I was teaching most of my female testers Aikido moves to use on their husbands, the verbal correction was met with great glee as well. It's a pitiful thing to have a man in his late 50's beg you not to teach his wife any more wristlocks even if he does promise to be more polite to her in the future.

And, my wife made me promise not to use the Jeapordy buzzer noise on her as she put it, "I am not a damn dog!"

(yea, but it worked great.....)


Jim


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## mel boschwitz

I think a lot of dogs will learn the difference, if you do as Joby said and work both areas as you go. 

That being said, I have hound proofed my house, and set things up so that it only takes me a few minutes to go from hound proof to regular dog proof (I can leave food on the counter when only my non working dogs are in the house. I cant even leave a piece of paper on the counter when the hounds come inside). Annoying, yes, but its not uncommon for me to come inside after feeding the horses to see my big male on the kitchen table (which is used only for doing paperwork, so its no biggie). But the other day when we ran a trail thru our city park with obvious multiple distractions at every turn, he left no doubt in my mind as to who the correct subject was when he climbed onto the slippery and shiny metal picnic table to tag the correct person.

I don't mind hound proofing my house so that I dont do anything that might limit them from being the best they can be.


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## Don Turnipseed

Nancy seems I recall "trying to explain" a simple way to do this some time back. You indignantly informed me that you, and everyone else had working dogs and knew how to handle pups in the house. I thank you for this thread. It tickles me that you can't do it. LOL Your dog is only nine mo.? The pups I have been showing have been sleeping in the house since four months uncrated. Matter of fact they stay at either the GF's house or mine uncrated They don't get on the furniture or go in the kitchen. Of course the yard will never be the same....have no idea where all the potted plants disappeared to because that is where they blow off steam, sleep on the sofa swing or the lawn chairs or their beds. Thank you again for this thread. I needed a good laugh. Want to see some pictures? LOL


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## Joby Becker

Don Turnipseed said:


> Nancy seems I recall "trying to explain" a simple way to do this some time back. You indignantly informed me that you, and everyone else had working dogs and knew how to handle pups in the house. I thank you for this thread. It tickles me that you can't do it. LOL Your dog is only nine mo.? The pups I have been showing have been sleeping in the house since four months uncrated. Matter of fact they stay at either the GF's house or mine uncrated They don't get on the furniture or go in the kitchen. Of course the yard will never be the same....have no idea where all the potted plants disappeared to because that is where they blow off steam, sleep on the sofa swing or the lawn chairs or their beds. Thank you again for this thread. I needed a good laugh. Want to see some pictures? LOL


Don, I want to see videos of the pups getting on the tables and on the couches...at your house or your GF's house when allowed to. Hide that toy of yours up on a counter and see if they will get up to it...

the issue here is not stopping the dogs from doing it, it is stopping them from doing it, and still retaining the abiltiy to having them do it, in a building with 100% commitment while working.


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## Nancy Jocoy

Well, Don. I had to go back and see what you said and what I said. Seems like I said I never had any trouble housebreaking a dog or getting them to stay on a pillow-I even said how did you get them to not do the other things -but all I ever got out of your posts was pictures of pups on pillows........

Thanks, Joby - you pegged the issue.


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## Don Turnipseed

Nancy, the thread you pooh pood would have explained it. The initial obedience is all done at the same time as the housebreaking which was explained. The dogs know which rooms are off limits, they are house broke, have a solid down sit and come all at the same time. If you understand the dynamics, it has no effect on behavior outside the house....but you have to understand it. This is why I pointed out that when they hit the door, nothing is sacred. As a matter of fact, I have to replace the cushions on the outside swing at the GF's because they ripped the fronts off of them. I passed over Joby's post but, he has trained as many cadaver dog as I have. Zero. The dogs sleep on the outside furniture even though they are not allowed on the furniture at any time in the house. Hell, they tear the outside furniture up if the cushions are not removed. Dogs are very capable of making distinctions.


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## Joby Becker

Don Turnipseed said:


> Nancy, the thread you pooh pooed would have explained it. The initial obedience is all done at the same time as the housebreaking which was explained. The dogs know which rooms are off limits, they are house broke, have a solid down sit and come mall at the same time. If you understand the dynamics, it has no effect on behavior outside the house....but you have to understand it. This is why I pointed out that when they hit the door, nothimng is sacred. As a matter of fact, I have to replace the cushions on the outside swing at the GF's because they ripped the fronts off of them. I passed over Joby's post but, he has trained as many cadaver dog as I have. Zero. The dogs sleep on the outside furniture even though they are not allowed on the furniture at any time in the house. Hell, they tear the outside furniture up if the cushions are not removed. Dogs are very capable of making distinctions.


Don I have seen many a young adult, or adult green dog candidates being tested for work, and it is clearly evident in many dogs that they have inhibitions doing certain things, because they were raised in a family household and had "household manners" training..

I do not know of anyone that is raising dogs for "work" that tries to houseproof them by extinguishing behaviors...they may have a place, such as your pillow to have the dog stay on, but not everyone wants to it that way...ask any police dog trainer if they want the dogs they are selecting to be "houseproofed"...I imagine detection dogs, other than PSD are looked at the same way...

pull out the video camera and shoot some video of the pups roaming freely in the house and climbing on the furniture, when you let them, hide the toy, let them climb all over shit and find it in 100% drive and confidence... I am guessing they will not do it...


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## Jim Delbridge

I think Don just needs a narc dog team to search his house as an example of what narcotics dogs are expected to do on a search. Nothing like seeing a highly trained malinois kicking all the items off the counter in its pursuit of scent to get the point across about the difference between trained working dog and house pet.

Don doesn't understand the concept of intelligent disobedience. He just wants the dogs in his house to follow his house rules at all times.

Jim


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## julie allen

Nancy, just use the house as a place to behave, and everywhere else they get to jump and climb. We use outdoor and indoor places, so they have furniture as well. They learn the difference in "home" and everywhere else.

Honestly, I was surprised the pup didn't eat the food, as she was in for ten hours with zero supervision. We spend do much time outdoors running, playing, and training, they have learned when they come inside to settle. It hasnt affected them anywhere else.

As I said, they are allowed on some furniture, but obey the off command. I really didn't have to use much more than "no" and praise when the would jump off. Or a toy , whatever. 

The pup had a serious desire to chew shoes, and I'm not much on puppy proofing the house. Imo, they need manners. So just consistent "no" when she went for shoes, and praise when she grabbed a toy. 

These two really want to please. Not lacking drive by any means. Raven wouldnt give a shit about pleasing you, lol, and liked to chew walls, ( and doors, shoes, window blinds, buckets of rat poison) so constant supervision was needed with her. Though she wasn't raised inside.


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## Don Turnipseed

Joby, I am not sure why I am answering this post but you are talking nonsense. Yes, many dogs have inhibitions. Many always will. You are talking about extinguishing behaviors. Where? How? None of what you are conjuring up in your mind is fact. Because one or two rooms in the house are off limits to the pups, does not keep them from roaming freely through any other room. Not getting on the furniture in the house does not stop them from getting on the outside furniture. Not tearing shit up in the house does not inhoibit or distinguish anything if done right. Most do not refer to it as extinguishing behaviors, most refer to it as training. What you are talking about has no place here. Nancy, a working dog person, owns this dog. It isn't a two or three year old dogs that has been hammered with obedience to the point it "should have" developed these inhhibitions you refer to. When a dog with a true working mentality is put on a job, the dog knows to do what it takes and does it. You know, the dog does it or he doesn't. If you have to let the dog run roughshod through life, and your house, destroying everthing along the way for fear of scarring the dogs psychy....,you got the wrong dog. Plain and simple. I don't claim to be a trainer, but I have been training dogs for a long time. Because I make them reliable in not chasing stock(live animals that run), in no way impedes their desire to hunt or chase other animals. They distinguish the difference. Amazing isn't it? Same with furniture or anything else.


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## Don Turnipseed

julie allen said:


> Nancy, just use the house as a place to behave, and everywhere else they get to jump and climb. We use outdoor and indoor places, so they have furniture as well. They learn the difference in "home" and everywhere else.
> 
> Honestly, I was surprised the pup didn't eat the food, as she was in for ten hours with zero supervision. We spend do much time outdoors running, playing, and training, they have learned when they come inside to settle. It hasnt affected them anywhere else.
> 
> As I said, they are allowed on some furniture, but obey the off command. I really didn't have to use much more than "no" and praise when the would jump off. Or a toy , whatever.
> 
> The pup had a serious desire to chew shoes, and I'm not much on puppy proofing the house. Imo, they need manners. So just consistent "no" when she went for shoes, and praise when she grabbed a toy.
> 
> These two really want to please. Not lacking drive by any means. Raven wouldnt give a shit about pleasing you, lol, and liked to chew walls, ( and doors, shoes, window blinds, buckets of rat poison) so constant supervision was needed with her. Though she wasn't raised inside.


Thank you Julie. It is really that simple.


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## Nancy Jocoy

Julie, Mel, Jim - thanks for the insights. 

Don - if you go back and read your threads you will see I actually asked that question then. You never actually gave an answer to that point.


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## Don Turnipseed

Nancy Jocoy said:


> Julie, Mel, Jim - thanks for the insights.
> 
> Don - if you go back and read your threads you will see I actually asked that question then. You never actually gave an answer to that point.


Maybe not Nancy. I may have just given up at that point.....but I have explained it in other threads if not that one. I hope you are capable of sorting the wheat from the chaffe. Think about this....if I stock break the dogs from running livestock, it does not stop them from hunting animals. Another thing to remember(probably to late for some things with your dog) if a dog does something once and gets by with it....he will always do it again.


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## Jim Delbridge

Don Turnipseed said:


> . Another thing to remember(probably to late for some things with your dog) if a dog does something once and gets by with it....he will always do it again.


 
Sorry Don, but this is the attitude that gets dogs shot instead of re-trained. I did say if the handler allows a dog to do something once or twice that it would take repeated corrections to convince the dog that the human was sadly mistaken the first time. This simply means the trainer/handler has to be premeditated in their training to allow the dog to think it has the opportunity again so that a correction can be communicated at just the right time. 



Jim


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## Connie Sutherland

Don Turnipseed said:


> .... if a dog does something once and gets by with it....he will always do it again.


Wow. I have to say with Jim that this a pretty broad brush stroke. 

This would mean that I had never (that NO ONE had ever) re-trained a dog whose owner had allowed the dog to do things that needed not to be allowed. What the heck?

Re-training is actually what a lot of people have to do with dogs .... and they DO.


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## rick smith

Don:
re: "if a dog does something once and gets by with it....he will always do it again"

maybe, maybe not 

one reason i "met" my current dog was because he had bitten multiple people requiring sutures....was only doing an eval and not even considering keeping him

so, the very first day i saw him he nailed me good on the forearm and took a nice big chunk with him. i could drink sake outa that hole for over a month til it filled in (aka: NOT a "nip")

i did absolutely NOTHING and actually acted as if he hadn't even touched me....
..ended up keeping him and i've had him over two and a half years now ... no further bites on me

of course i didn't "let" him bite me, and i felt pretty stoopid at the time, but i deliberately did NOTHING to correct THAT bite or show him at THAT time it was not acceptable

f/f to now for an example of this (extinguished) behavior :
- i can walk up behind him when he's laying down crunching up a big beef neck bone, reach over his head and pull it right out of his mouth ... and he'd just look up at me til i gave it back to him, without raising up

- guess all i'm saying is imo, there is more than one way to deal with bad habits, even tho this example probably has nothing to do with the thread ....... so sorry to butt in


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## Joby Becker

Connie Sutherland said:


> Wow. I have to say with Jim that this a pretty broad brush stroke.
> 
> This would mean that I had never (that NO ONE had ever) re-trained a dog whose owner had allowed the dog to do things that needed not to be allowed. What the heck?
> 
> Re-training is actually what a lot of people have to do with dogs .... and they DO.


yes, it is impossible to change anything that the dog has done once and gotten away with...

this is why behavioral modification, and OB training are a total scam, they dont work at all, and the trainers are all con artists...

a dog that is dirty in the blind can never be fixed, cause he got away with it before... etc. etc....

a dog that is allowed to walk into rooms, get on furniture, or get off his pillow, even only once..can never be trained to stay out of those rooms, off of that funriture, or to stay in place on his pillow....no matter how much training...

the only thing I know about dogs in that regard is once they run from threatening human, they usually will run again...


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## Don Turnipseed

Jim Delbridge said:


> Sorry Don, but this is the attitude that gets dogs shot instead of re-trained. I did say if the handler allows a dog to do something once or twice that it would take repeated corrections to convince the dog that the human was sadly mistaken the first time. This simply means the trainer/handler has to be premeditated in their training to allow the dog to think it has the opportunity again so that a correction can be communicated at just the right time.
> 
> 
> 
> Jim


I suppose you are referring to the comment about Nancy's dog. If the dog does something once and is corrected, he may do it another time or two but, if corrected, will stop. Where I said it may be too late for Nancy's dog at this point is the fact no one has sat on the dog yet to stop the behavior, doubt if they will now and it is now going to require a lot more sitting on the dog than it would have. Agreed? People generally create their own problems with a dog. Raise em in the house and let em pee(have accidents) they think it is A OK. Rough house with pups in the house that is where they rough house I could go on but there is no point. A lot (most)of this simple stuff is corrected by just handling them right as pups....instead it becomes a major job.


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## Don Turnipseed

Jim Delbridge said:


> Sorry Don, but this is the attitude that gets dogs shot instead of re-trained. I did say if the handler allows a dog to do something once or twice that it would take repeated corrections to convince the dog that the human was sadly mistaken the first time. This simply means the trainer/handler has to be premeditated in their training to allow the dog to think it has the opportunity again so that a correction can be communicated at just the right time.
> 
> 
> 
> Jim


Aside from the first point Jim, you thinking is really antiquated. If they can't correct the dog, they sure can't shoot em. It is the new world Jim.


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## Kat Hunsecker

It is training, or helping them understanding the rules!

Dog indeed understand rules!!!
What they do in our absence with food or a ball on the table is beside the point. some dogs accept that rule and some dogs have more determinatioon than others. Put it up or live with the loss!
A working dog in the house is possible. A dog that has to be able to climb everything is possible in the house . 
Thing is, dogs understand rules. They do know indeed when it is part of the game to get on and into everything.

I would not focus on how to correct or leash this dog; or teather it someplace. I would focus on educating him what is a productive thing to do. And when I teach him correctly,I need not worry about his confidence beeing crushed.
Indeed if i cannot correct a dog without crushing his temperament, i am not sure if it has the nerves for the job. a well rounded dog understands that sometimes in life there is things i am not allowed to do.
And reading your post I am wondering what this dog is beeing trained for. Judging by the ability to climb a lot of things he is going to be a rubble dog?
A Rubble dog needs to be able to be directed and stopped/ called off in an instant. and this needs Obedience, absolut Obedience. And this is best traint through consistent, steady training, that includes do's and don'ts . 

Behaving is absolutly necessary. 
A dog should obey because it respects you, not because there is a leash on it or it is affraid of you. 
You said this dogs seems to do it because it is some sort of game for him... it could be because he thinks he can, - or he just doesn't know- or he just does it because he can get a rise out of you... 

Training, consitent and positive. This is all just educating your dog in good manners. Not crushing his spirit... Staying of the furniture inside will not make the dog climb a pile outside- unless your methods are that far off that making him understand manners is crushing his working spirit.


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## Joby Becker

Kat Hunsecker said:


> It is training, or helping them understanding the rules!
> 
> Dog indeed understand rules!!!
> What they do in our absence with food or a ball on the table is beside the point. some dogs accept that rule and some dogs have more determinatioon than others. Put it up or live with the loss!
> A working dog in the house is possible. A dog that has to be able to climb everything is possible in the house .
> Thing is, dogs understand rules. They do know indeed when it is part of the game to get on and into everything.
> 
> I would not focus on how to correct or leash this dog; or teather it someplace. I would focus on educating him what is a productive thing to do. And when I teach him correctly,I need not worry about his confidence beeing crushed.
> Indeed if i cannot correct a dog without crushing his temperament, i am not sure if it has the nerves for the job. a well rounded dog understands that sometimes in life there is things i am not allowed to do.
> And reading your post I am wondering what this dog is beeing trained for. Judging by the ability to climb a lot of things he is going to be a rubble dog?
> A Rubble dog needs to be able to be directed and stopped/ called off in an instant. and this needs Obedience, absolut Obedience. And this is best traint through consistent, steady training, that includes do's and don'ts .
> 
> Behaving is absolutly necessary.
> A dog should obey because it respects you, not because there is a leash on it or it is affraid of you.
> You said this dogs seems to do it because it is some sort of game for him... it could be because he thinks he can, - or he just doesn't know- or he just does it because he can get a rise out of you...
> 
> Training, consitent and positive. This is all just educating your dog in good manners. Not crushing his spirit... Staying of the furniture inside will not make the dog climb a pile outside- unless your methods are that far off that making him understand manners is crushing his working spirit.


good post...unless it all goes bad..

"sometimes a great working dog, does not a great house pet make."


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## Don Turnipseed

Connie Sutherland said:


> Wow. I have to say with Jim that this a pretty broad brush stroke.
> 
> This would mean that I had never (that NO ONE had ever) re-trained a dog whose owner had allowed the dog to do things that needed not to be allowed. What the heck?
> 
> Re-training is actually what a lot of people have to do with dogs .... and they DO.


Does a picture have to be painted for everyone here? Yes, the dog will do it again if not corrected. The longer the dog does it without correction, the more TRAINING it is going to take to stop the behavior. Or, IF YOU DON'T LIKE THE BEHAVIOR, CORRECT IT THE FIRST TIME....NOT AT 9 MO. 

Today is your turn Connie :grin:


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## Joby Becker

Don Turnipseed said:


> Does a picture have to be painted for everyone here? Yes, the dog will do it again if not corrected. The longer the dog does it without correction, the more TRAINING it is going to take to stop the behavior. Or, IF YOU DON'T LIKE THE BEHAVIOR, CORRECT IT THE FIRST TIME....NOT AT 9 MO.
> 
> Today is your turn Connie :grin:


nice back peddle Don...
_".... if a dog does something once and gets by with it....he will always do it again."_


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## Connie Sutherland

Don Turnipseed said:


> Does a picture have to be painted for everyone here? Yes, the dog will do it again if not corrected. The longer the dog does it without correction, the more TRAINING it is going to take to stop the behavior. Or, IF YOU DON'T LIKE THE BEHAVIOR, CORRECT IT THE FIRST TIME....NOT AT 9 MO.
> 
> Today is your turn Connie :grin:



OK! My turn. I almost forgot about Pick on Me Friday. :lol:

_"if a dog does something once and gets by with it....he will always do it again." 
_
That's a direct quote. Cut and pasted. 



_"the dog will do it again if not corrected. The longer the dog does it without correction, the more TRAINING it is going to take to stop the behavior." 
_

I agree! :lol:


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## Peter Cavallaro

So if you train a dog to bite phone books in protection should you correct it if it starts chewing up phone books when yr just chilling in the house???


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## Sara Waters

I have 2 young working dogs that were not raised as pups by me. I got them when they were around 8-9 months and they had been kept in outside runs, like many sheepdogs.

It really didnt take too long to sort them out inside. I used a combination of crates and allowing them only on certain bits of furniture. I also closed areas of the house I didnt want them to gain access to and now they never venture in there. My kelpie was the ultimate counter surfer at first if there was food around. She is very athletic and can leap on to anything with ease. I was just patient, made sure there wasnt food around, taught her to go immediately to her crate and generally spent a bit of time teaching them manners in the house. They are now very reliable and if at any time they get a bit active I either put them outside or send them to their crates. They just know if they want to stay free ranging in the house there are certain codes of behaviour they need to follow. 

My very active BC can be a bit of a handful but he also knows that he goes straight into his crate if he pushes too many boundaries and is happy chill in his crate. I have all their crates in the house.

My old cattle dog always slept on the end of my bed, but since we moved to the farm she gets too intimate with sheep poo and I dont allow her on my bed anymore, 
didnt take long for her to get the message and she now sleeps in her own doggy bed.


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## Ariel Peldunas

Don Turnipseed said:


> Joby, I am not sure why I am answering this post but you are talking nonsense. Yes, many dogs have inhibitions. Many always will. You are talking about extinguishing behaviors. Where? How? None of what you are conjuring up in your mind is fact. Because one or two rooms in the house are off limits to the pups, does not keep them from roaming freely through any other room. Not getting on the furniture in the house does not stop them from getting on the outside furniture. Not tearing shit up in the house does not inhoibit or distinguish anything if done right. Most do not refer to it as extinguishing behaviors, most refer to it as training. What you are talking about has no place here. Nancy, a working dog person, owns this dog. It isn't a two or three year old dogs that has been hammered with obedience to the point it "should have" developed these inhhibitions you refer to. When a dog with a true working mentality is put on a job, the dog knows to do what it takes and does it. You know, the dog does it or he doesn't. If you have to let the dog run roughshod through life, and your house, destroying everthing along the way for fear of scarring the dogs psychy....,you got the wrong dog. Plain and simple. I don't claim to be a trainer, but I have been training dogs for a long time. Because I make them reliable in not chasing stock(live animals that run), in no way impedes their desire to hunt or chase other animals. They distinguish the difference. Amazing isn't it? Same with furniture or anything else.


Don,

Have you ever trained a dog that's required to go into someone's home and search, without inhibition, and be willing to jump and climb on/over anything in order to follow scent?

It's not as simple as you make it out to be. Some dogs can make the distinction between when they are allowed to be unruly in a home and when they are not. Others do not make that distinction as easily and will have obvious inhibitions. You seem to believe the dog matters not, only the training. I disagree. And I would put a lot more faith in your opinion if you had experience working such dogs.


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## Don Turnipseed

Ariel Peldunas said:


> Don,
> 
> Have you ever trained a dog that's required to go into someone's home and search, without inhibition, and be willing to jump and climb on/over anything in order to follow scent?
> 
> It's not as simple as you make it out to be. Some dogs can make the distinction between when they are allowed to be unruly in a home and when they are not. Others do not make that distinction as easily and will have obvious inhibitions. You seem to believe the dog matters not, only the training. I disagree. And I would put a lot more faith in your opinion if you had experience working such dogs.


Areil, first, you have to understand dogs. Go back and read Kat's post. Kat is on the mark! I would have more faith in your opinion also if you realized dogs can distinguish between real and a game. Also, it is that simple if the dog is actually up to the work and not depending on nothing but training.


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## Nicole Stark

Nancy, my snipe isn't raised in the house but she is permitted to be loose in my cabin. Last summer I distinctly remember her racing into the house and God only knows how she realized there was something on an end table to drink as fast as she did but it was like made a beeline for a cup of orange juice and just started drinking out of it like it was a bowl of water I had put out for her. So, we had a talk about that. 

Without rambling on about what can and can't be done I guess I wanted to just say that outside of the cabin this dog seems to want to get up on everything, benches that are deliberately cluttered so plenty of things go flying when she gets up there, fridges, tables, exercise equipment, yard tools, barrels, sleds, I could go on.

Yet, when she comes into the cabin, instead of giving her a reason to search I give her the ball so she has it. Course she likes to roam about with it too which is fine until I grow tired of that. Then, I'll grab a handful of food and sit myself someplace. She positions herself nearby and settles in waiting attentively for me to toss her a piece at a time. She'll hang out like that for quite a long time if I let her.

But I won't leave her unattended. I've left her to do as she pleases a bit too much for that and know she's an eater of all things interesting. I am sure she'd resort to shredding. Well, you know about the value of shredding so we can't have any of that.


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## Ariel Peldunas

Don Turnipseed said:


> Areil, first, you have to understand dogs. Go back and read Kat's post. Kat is on the mark! I would have more faith in your opinion also if you realized dogs can distinguish between real and a game. Also, it is that simple if the dog is actually up to the work and not depending on nothing but training.


Again, Don, it's possible with some dogs and not so much with others and also depends a lot on how the trainer communicates with the dogs. I don't disagree with Kat, but I also don't think it's an absolute that every working dog can be trained to stay off the furniture and be calm in the house at one time yet search with enthusiasm and reckless abandon in another house at another time. Dogs certainly do understand rules, but they are also easily confused when the rules change and it's not entirely clear how or why. Consistency is one of the most important aspects of training a dog that is absolutely clear headed and confident and understands what's expected of him.

I would certainly be interested in entertaining a discussion about the best way to have a working dog double as a suitable house dog with people who have some intelligent input, but I don't believe you have a true understanding of exactly what a stellar detection dog looks like and how they are expected to perform ...let alone have any experience training or working with one. It's not as simple as expecting the dogs to behave in your home but allowing them to do anything they want once they cross the threshold into the outside world. 

You failed to answer my last question, but I already know you've not trained anything other than some basic obedience/house manners and allowed you dogs to express their natural desire to hunt prey. Nevertheless, I have another question ...how would your pups/dogs that have house manners behave in a completely new home? Would they jump and climb on furniture and explore new areas without hesitation or would their manners in your home/your girlfriend's home carry over?


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## Sara Waters

Ariel Peldunas said:


> Nevertheless, I have another question ...how would your pups/dogs that have house manners behave in a completely new home? Would they jump and climb on furniture and explore new areas without hesitation or would their manners in your home/your girlfriend's home carry over?


This is an interesting question and I know it is adressed to Don but this is my experience with my working dogs. My young working dogs know how to behave in my house and they learnt very quickly how to behave in my mothers house. However if I was to let them loose in a strange house it is anyones guess. I dont believe they would jump on everything because despite being agility dogs and also sheep dogs that jump on an off the back of utes and back sheep and everything else outside as they have learnt that in the house furniture is off limits unless specified.

Certainly when they first visited mums house in the city they ran around sniffing and exploring but didnt jump on any furniture and are incredibly well behaved, same when I have taken them away and stayed in a rented cabin. They didnt show any inclination to jump on everything.

However they are not detection dogs. 

They seem to be able to distinquish agility equipment and outside things they jump on (including out door furniture) from inside a house. I just expect them to behave inside and they know it, but I expect if I gave them the go ahead that they would run riot. They would be sailing on and off furniture with delight, I know if I play with them inside they know exactly how far I will let them go. LOL 

I think with my dogs the consistency lies in their ability to read me. I try and be very consistent in the way I handle them. Agility and herding training is very good for enforcing this. I try and be very aware of the body language and signals that I use when working and living with my dogs and how they respond to them.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Nancy Jocoy said:


> Beau is 10 months and coming on in his training (cadaver) and has started working unknowns. No issues so far there but......
> 
> In the house (he is outside most of the day to be acclimatized to the weather, and inside in his crate at night) but when he comes in, he still wants to jump on everything - including our bed, which is off limits and always has been. Dragging him off of these things (or bringing him inside on lead) and redirecting is getting old and I have had enough.
> 
> I think it is just a big game to him to see what he can get into and have me chasing after him etc. Maybe by paying attention to it at all fuels it. I do spend a lot of time with him during the day in short increments (I work from home)
> 
> I can't ALWAYS ensure stuff is cleared from tables and counters and that the bedroom door is shut. He is a pretty hard puppy and corrections don't seem to shut him down.
> 
> If I put a drag line an a prong on him and start correcting for these behaviors in my house...do you think it would impair his ability to do building searches elsewhere and jump all over the things forbidden in my house? If not, how should I fix it without setting him up to avoid these things elsewhere?
> 
> Grim has never done this stuff but can go into a strange building and walk all over the counter tops etc while not counter surfing in my house but I don't know how we got there; he was 2 when I got him. I would like to be able to chill out with this puppy off lead in my house without him being on a line or under a place command.


 
What's wrong with an alternative behavior like down stay your butt where I plant you. You've been wrestling with this since he was a baby puppy. If you are training the buildings I don't see why house requirements would kill drive. 


T


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Jim Delbridge said:


> Sorry Don, but this is the attitude that gets dogs shot instead of re-trained. I did say if the handler allows a dog to do something once or twice that it would take repeated corrections to convince the dog that the human was sadly mistaken the first time. This simply means the trainer/handler has to be premeditated in their training to allow the dog to think it has the opportunity again so that a correction can be communicated at just the right time.
> 
> 
> 
> Jim


I think its a relationship issue. Nancy has to ask herself can she be the leader this dog needs. He's been billed as somewhat hard to correction strong confident dog. It seems as if he doesn't believe who buys the dog food. I don't think you have to really resort to corrections. I'd have a lead on him in the house he would down his behind where I put him. I do this all the time while I'm cooking, watching TV on the computer etc. My puppies don't run in the house jumping on things. Had them out on the deck for the first time yesterday and there was Rhemy sitting in one of the deck chairs thinking he was going to pull the cushion off of it while I was grooming the other one. No generalization there at all.

T


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## Bob Scott

If it was in SAR, Schutzhund, AKC OB, whatever! I never looked at house manners as something that made any difference in the dog's working or competition training.
My daughter had a Pit that jumped all over everyone that entered their house. I never put up with it and taught the dog to sit before I pet it. The dog would come flying across the room into a sliding sit position right in front of me..but it STILL jumped all over everyone else because it knew what it could and couldn't get away with. 
House manners are just that. Nothing more or less.


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## Kat Hunsecker

Hello,
I will say there is always exceptions to the rules, but I lived sucessfully with several working dogs in the house. At one point I had three females in the house, one of them a detection dog. But they understood the rules of the house. Especially the narc dog, she was awsome, you could turn her lose in the area, house room, where she had to search and she would do what it takes, on or of lead. - still understanding at home things are a bit different.

There are benefits on having a working dog in the kennel instead, but even then I do expect rules and basic manners.

Fortunate or unfortunate I was and still am presented with very strong dogs, determined and strong willed. For the most part I was able to reach the manners through just introducing/ raising them in the house. I know they are going 24/7 100 miles an hour, some seem to have no off switch.
But beeing paitent and calm, redirecting and giving them something to do, explaining the rules- worked for me- just fine.

One thing that gets forgotten very often is, that rules and reeinforcement of them, gives security to most social animals. It builds trust and confidence. Builds a relationship- and we all know that this is vital to a good work ethic.


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## Nancy Jocoy

I appreciate all the insights and have some new proactive ideas to engage him in the house in a bit more to sculpt what I want without too much compulsion but still being firm. 

Fortunately I have never encouraged playing in the house and I think some of this is his way to continue the game from outside. Dragging him off the bed is probably fun for him. So I will give him other opportunities to earn his toy in the house and make getting on the bed boring.

We are in an obedience class now that I have down the basics and he is actually the "star" in the class and very engaged with me there. 

So its not all bad - he is a quick learn and our outside behaviors are all great. It is when I try to sit down for a few minutes or he is not directly supervised that he starts looking for things to do, and I think "place" will be good in that respect because it does not require constant engagement on my part..

My assessment of him will be skewed as well. I am not used to extreme dogs and he is probably not extreme but simply a solid confident and hard puppy which is probably what most of you have. He has definiltey been favorably reviewed by two police Master Trainers and some other K9 officers.

He is definltely a bit more of a handful than my first working lines West German female, and Grim who is Czech (but he was two when I got him with a lot of foundation training completed)


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## Sara Waters

Nancy Jocoy said:


> I appreciate all the insights and have some new proactive ideas to engage him in the house in a bit more to sculpt what I want without too much compulsion but still being firm.
> 
> Fortunately I have never encouraged playing in the house and I think some of this is his way to continue the game from outside. Dragging him off the bed is probably fun for him. So I will give him other opportunities to earn his toy in the house and make getting on the bed boring.
> 
> We are in an obedience class now that I have down the basics and he is actually the "star" in the class and very engaged with me there.
> 
> So its not all bad - he is a quick learn and our outside behaviors are all great. It is when I try to sit down for a few minutes or he is not directly supervised that he starts looking for things to do, and I think "place" will be good in that respect because it does not require constant engagement on my part..
> 
> My assessment of him will be skewed as well. I am not used to extreme dogs and he is probably not extreme but simply a solid confident and hard puppy which is probably what most of you have. He has definiltey been favorably reviewed by two police Master Trainers and some other K9 officers.
> 
> He is definltely a bit more of a handful than my first working lines West German female, and Grim who is Czech (but he was two when I got him with a lot of foundation training completed)


My young BC sounds similar and is what I would call a real handful. He is super confident and very high energy and active and would like to be on the go all the time and looking for things to do which usually involves going completely feral. 

However I have taught him that as soon as I disengage so does he. He either relaxes or he goes into his crate where he will chill out. He knows when we are going to work or train from my body language and voice and he immediately goes into work mode. He has learnt to switch off when nothing interesting is happening. I do ocassionally play with him in the house but I can get him to switch from a tug maniac to chilled dog very quickly these days.

I have trained him to recognise when we are working and when we are relaxing. I use "that'l do" and he will disengage immediately, even from sheep albeit slightly reluctantly LOL. 

In an agility trial - he is not a dog you want to get excited and hyped up before going into the ring or he would be completely feral. I keep him nice and calm and focussed untill I get him onto the start line. My signal from him to go is enough to unleash what I need from him. These dogs have plenty of what you need when working and teaching them to switch off in no ways diminishes their desire to work and perform. I find it develops more focus and teamwork.


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## Don Turnipseed

Kat said


> One thing that gets forgotten very often is, that rules and reeinforcement of them, gives security to most social animals. It builds trust and confidence. Builds a relationship- and we all know that this is vital to a good work ethic.


Bingo!!! Nothing like being able to let the dog in and not have to spend the rest of the day saying No! to this and No! to that. Start em off right when they are young and you can enjoy them their whole life. Just let them be puppies until they are six(very popular these days) months....and you will pay dearly.

As far as crushing their drive. Won't happen with a dog that is suited to working. I trained Jack with Koehler. Slip the choker on the dog, he was in work mode and near perfect. Didn't even need the leash. Take the choker off and he he could blow you off as well as any dog. Consistency is what it takes.


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## Kat Hunsecker

That six month puppy thing is mis understood, too . Mine get to stay puppies for longer than that, but it does not mean that I will not take advantage of their eagerness to explore and learn, I call it playing around. Others might call it differently. But what happens in the first year is all great fun, not work and not every day..
but it all helps development and making them smarter. Best stuff us learned in play. That applies for limits and rules. All games have rules.. great learning.


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## Joby Becker

Don Turnipseed said:


> I trained Jack with Koehler. Slip the choker on the dog, he was in work mode and near perfect. Didn't even need the leash. Take the choker off and he he could blow you off as well as any dog. Consistency is what it takes.


then you did not train Jack correctly using the Koehler methods, Koehler methods are used still in a lot of arenas successfully, where a dog is not allowed to wear a choke collar.


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## Don Turnipseed

You truly are a moron Joby, get a job. Jack was trained correctly, not that you would know. Go back and find the thread, did the method until he was what I wanted to live with, not to a competition level. The same Koehler trainer that can leave his dog outside the store went through it step by step with me. You know, the one that leaves his dog in front of the store you are always making fun of. Of course you can't leave your dogs like that because you don't know how to train obedience. You make fun of whole litters of pups on a bed all the time.....then want to know how to do it. Get a life. LOL Last response for you Joby, I figure I just wasted the amount of time it took to answer you this time.


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## Don Turnipseed

Kat Hunsecker said:


> That six month puppy thing is mis understood, too . Mine get to stay puppies for longer than that, but it does not mean that I will not take advantage of their eagerness to explore and learn, I call it playing around. Others might call it differently. But what happens in the first year is all great fun, not work and not every day..
> but it all helps development and making them smarter. Best stuff us learned in play. That applies for limits and rules. All games have rules.. great learning.


As do mine Kat, I bring them in for very short duration to start with.....all at the same time. Start putting them out one by one as they let me know they are ready. I figure they should learn to communicate with me as well as me with them. They kind of set the time they are in.


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## Joby Becker

Don Turnipseed said:


> Of course you can't leave your dogs like that because you don't know how to train obedience.


Don I have been training Obedience for almost 20 yrs.

Mostly for Protection dogs, and for household pets. 100's of dogs. 
Have had dogs loose in my house for almost all of those years.

This dog is not kept loose in the house 24 hours a day because My GF has cats, and I dont want the cats to end up dead. This is not because the dog cannot be controlled if the cats are out and about, it is because the dog was not raised around cats, and would like to kill them, and I would rather not have that happen.

Even so, she is currently snoring on the couch, and has been out in the house since I woke up 5 hours ago...

the only things I have to worry about when she is loose is that she may decide to try to get a hold of some sort of training toy or equipment, made of fabric or leather usually, and shred it, if I am not paying attention and have stuff laying out.. or that some stranger may decide to walk in our front door unexpectedly (which has happened 3 times already) and might possibly be bitten, because the dog is a very CIVIL dog and will bite someone for real. When you have dogs that might be inclined to bite someone, it is generally a very good idea to have good obedience and control of them.


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## Connie Sutherland

_"I trained Jack with Koehler. Slip the choker on the dog, he was in work mode and near perfect. Didn't even need the leash. Take the choker off and he he could blow you off as well as any dog. Consistency is what it takes."
_

Actually, you are describing a training error. A big one.

You know how you you've talked about how using food rewards means "you always have to have food for the dog to obey commands" (which is completely incorrect)? 

You are describing a dog who always has to have the choker on for the dog to obey commands.

As many people here have replied in response to the inaccurate statement about using food to train meaning you always need food to get compliance, that would indicate bad training. Just like a collar-wise dog indicates bad training.

No matter what anyone's opinions of Koehler might be, he would not have ended up with a collar-wise dog.


JMO!


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## Connie Sutherland

_ " .... Koehler methods are used still in a lot of arenas successfully, where a dog is not allowed to wear a choke collar."_


'Zackly. 

A collar-wise dog (or, in fact, a dog whose owner "has to have food rewards" in order to ensure compliance after training with food) is not properly trained.


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## Don Turnipseed

Time to draw pictures once again.

I said "could" blow me off as well as any dog. Jack was a very well mannered dog and seldom blew me off....thus..the could.

Also Connie

I said


> did the method until he was what I wanted to live with, not to a competition level.


Which was what 5 or 6 weeks. Yes, yes, yes, if I wanted a competition obedience dog I would have done the whole thing....which since neither of you are apparently that familiar with Koehler.....goes completely through off leash totally. The collar wouldn't make a bit of difference at that point. 

The point being made was about a dog knows when it is working or not working. In this instance, and at this point with Jack, the collar was his que. Training did not diminish work in any way.....which is what many are alluding to.



And I give my dogs treats all the time....but NEVER as a reward.


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## Sara Waters

In my mind what Don is describing about the collar has nothing to do with Khoeler. It is simply an association that the dog has made.

I just have to pick up my stock stick and my BC immediately switches into stock mode. I can say "that'll do" and he realises it aint going to happen, but for the most I only pick up my stick when we are going to work stock, because it suits me. 

The only time I put on their agility collars on is when we are going agility trialing and my smart BC has cottoned on to this. It actually works well for him as he seems to mentally prepare himself and is all business by the time we get to the trialing ground. If it had a negative effect then I would have to approach the situation differently. My other dogs dont seem to notice either way.

As to expectations from very young dogs, I think that one has to be realistic. I like them to have the time to mature both physically and mentally while building a good working relationship with me with foundation work and having fun. If you have a confident dog with a great work ethic to start with it is always easier, even if they are a handful. 

Again I use my BC as an example. He has at the age of 2 1/2 has started really clicking into place with me. He is starting to nail his agility runs taking out a state title which caught me totally by surprise and he has also starting to think a lot more when working stock and to trust me more. I put it down to the time taken to build a shared handling system to handle his speed and a developing relationship built on trust and his increasing maturity.


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## Amy Hisaoka

My SAR GSD stays outside, she is a tornado in the house, and not becasue she is ill mannered, I have two toddlers, and a puppy and two toddlers is a tornado with or without training. She knows her commands, but has a play drive through the roof, and a tail that will leave bruises.


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## Gillian Schuler

Connie Sutherland said:


> _"I trained Jack with Koehler. Slip the choker on the dog, he was in work mode and near perfect. Didn't even need the leash. Take the choker off and he he could blow you off as well as any dog. Consistency is what it takes."_
> 
> 
> Actually, you are describing a training error. A big one.
> 
> You know how you you've talked about how using food rewards means "you always have to have food for the dog to obey commands" (which is completely incorrect)?
> 
> You are describing a dog who always has to have the choker on for the dog to obey commands.
> 
> As many people here have replied in response to the inaccurate statement about using food to train meaning you always need food to get compliance, that would indicate bad training. Just like a collar-wise dog indicates bad training.
> 
> No matter what anyone's opinions of Koehler might be, he would not have ended up with a collar-wise dog.
> 
> 
> JMO!


Extremely well described - unfortunately probably not more will not follow suit.


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