# Aggressive Dog



## Gloria Miller (Jul 22, 2010)

Hi. I'm owner-training a service dog and he's done well with all his obedience classes and task training. He's quite smart and loves to work for me. Recently I started his public access training and have encountred a problem. He was never socialized properly as a young puppy and when I got him I noticed he was aggressive at other dogs and small children, not a good sign for a service animal. I took him to dog parks frequently and as long as he's not on a leash there's no aggression with other dogs. He's playful and submissive. But put a leash on him and let him come upon another dog and he barks and lunges at it. He's been getting used to small children but lately he's been lunging at people for no reason. Store cashiers, people on the street, waitresses. I catch him with his prong collar and give him a correction but I'm afraid he's not going to stop this aggression. He doesn't bite people, he warns them to stay away. He doesn't like people putting their hands out to him or starimg at him. 

Yesterday I had him in a very crowded store with shopping carts and little children running around. He was wonderful. No problem. Then I went to dinner with a friend and he was under the table, well behaved. When it was time to leave, and standing at the cashier to pay, the waitress approached us and he lunged at her. It frightens people. I don't know if I should continue training him with a muzzle, or a gentle leader, the pinch-collar I"m using or what. If he can't be used for public access that will limit me although he'll still be an assistance dog at home for me. I never know when he's going to react to someone. 

I've met a trainer that thinks it might be terratorial aggression and protecting me. He's willing to take him on and evaluate him for a couple of weeks and will be using an e-collar, which I've heard so many horror stories about. He says they are fine if used properly. 

Is this a problem that could be corrected and allow him to continue Public Access Training for service dog work? He just doesn't take well to strangers. If he's met someone and spends some time with them then he's fine. Any comments, suggestions, advice?


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

I'm sure you will get lots of response to this thread! Hang on!\\/


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## Anna Kasho (Jan 16, 2008)

Gloria Miller said:


> He was never socialized properly as a young puppy and when I got him I noticed he was aggressive at other dogs and small children, not a good sign for a service animal. I took him to dog parks frequently and as long as he's not on a leash there's no aggression with other dogs. He's playful and submissive. But put a leash on him and let him come upon another dog and he barks and lunges at it. He's been getting used to small children but lately he's been lunging at people for no reason.


 
Why would you even decide to train this dog as a service animal, already knowing that he was aggressive to dogs and children? Why not start over with a different dog, properly selected for temperament. In my understanding, a service dog should be absolutely bombproof in ALL situations, not unstable or randomly lunging at strangers ..


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## John Campbell (Jul 25, 2010)

Well all you need to do is find a person who needs a service dog who also suffers from agoraphobia 

perfect fit


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Sometimes you cut your losses and get a dog that will do the job properly.

DFrost


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## Timothy Saunders (Mar 12, 2009)

I agree with Anna let this one go. The most important part of training dog is the ability to be open and honest about the animal you are training. If you make a mistake someone gets hurt and the dog gets put down. good luck


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

I agree that he is likely not the best dog for the job you want to do with him. However, I would bet that much of what looks like aggression to you is not really. If he is fine with other dogs when he is off leash, then what you are seeing when he is on leash is caused by the back pressure of the leash itself. When you pull him back, then he tries harder to go forward, if you let him go by just dropping the leash he will likely not follow through with any of his "aggression". Try it, and if he does bite someone then see the first sentence in my reply. LOL


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Owner - trainer dog ? What was it about the dog that you decided would make a good service dog ?


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## Gloria Miller (Jul 22, 2010)

Mike, that's exactly what happens when I drop the leash - no aggression. He wants to greet the other dog. Someone else told me perhaps it's the pinch collar causing the problem. What other collar could I try? I have a gentle leader but don't know if this will help. 

As far as why did I choose him. He was a rescue dog and started doing tasks for me around the house. He's such an incredibly fast learner and so smart. Today I taught him to retrieve the cordless telephone within about ten minutes. He never forgets a task he's learned and I don't think I'd get rid of him because his home tasks are so spot on that it would take a long time to teach another animal what he's learned. 

I do understand the liability and that might stop me from taking him into public situations. I just wondered if anyone knew or had experience in breaking this aggression. Since it's something that's just started I thought it might be reversible. He's so excellent in all other areas of his training I don't want to replace him if at all possible. The trainer told me he'd tell me at the end of the two weeks if he would be a service dog, if he feels it's hopeless he'll tell me sooner.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

I don't give a damn what this dog can do as a service dog. It has no place in public access! The most worrisome porblem is that you cannot predict your dog's reaction to any circumstance.

Cut your losses now and get a STABLE, safe dog from a reputable breeder that produces service dogs.

Shelter dogs that pass service dog aptitude/selection testing performed by professional service dog trainers and are trained by professional service dog trainers have a 1% chance of becoming a service dog. (Ouch!) Dogs from breeders that breed specifically to produce service dogs, that pass the same aptitude/selection test and trained by professional service dog trainers have a 90% chance of becoming a service dog. (Wow!)

I have had exactly ONE rescue dog get certified. And he was a purebred, registered dog from a breeder that produces service dogs. I also have his littermate (purchased from the breeder) in training to be a service dog.

Can you put your dog in a sit-stay in a busy shopping mall and LEAVE the mall? Will your dog be there in the sit-stay when you come back - even if it gets mobbed by toddlers? 

No? Forget it. Get a real dog.




I know it sounds cold and harsh, but it is reality. I've been there. I recently retired and later had euthanized a 3 year old certified service dog that developed similar, but much less severe, behavior problems. I can kiss $20,000 good-bye. Whoops - double that since I had to replace the dog with another service dog for the handler. :-&

How much time and money are you willing to lose over this dog?!

ETA: 

P.S. Training a dog to retrieve something in 10 minutes is not a big deal!


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

This is the same problem that is seen in most dog sports, SAR and anything else involving dogs. People trying to fit the dog to the activity.
Listen to the many "start over with the right dog" suggestions here. 
They are not trying to insult you. Just passing on their expierience....honest!


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Bob Scott said:


> This is the same problem that is seen in most dog sports, SAR and anything else involving dogs. People trying to fit the dog to the activity.
> Listen to the many "start over with the right dog" suggestions here.
> They are not trying to insult you. Just passing on their expierience....honest!


Bob, that's good point that it is common and the discussion come up here frequently. 

What it comes down to is 2 schools of thought.

1) "This is the dog I have, I know I can't mean my goals, but we'll learn and have fun on the way. Someday I'll get a dog that can do this stuff for real."

2) "It's not fair to my dog to make it into something it is not. I will get a dog that can participate in the activities I want to train."

People starting out in WORKING dogs often fall into #1. They are usually completely blind to reality (and no offense, I started there too!). A classic example is a lady disabled by Parkinson's Disease and various other health problems who was convinced her "brilliant, sweet" dog would be the next Search & Rescue star. Never mind that the poor dog had ZERO drive, was morbidly obese to the point it could barely walk, and was lethargic. To me it was completely ridiculous, but to her it was perfectly realistic.

(There is a happy/sad ending to this story. The lady was killed in a car accident, her daughter donated the dog to me. After he lost 20+ pounds (!), his sweet personality came out. He is a certified therapy dog and works at a psychologist's office. His total lack of drive made his suitable for a job - just very, very different from what his owner had imagined.)

There are serious problems with trying to squeeze your dog into the service dog mold. You can be denied "reasonable accomodation" to use your service dog based on your service dog's behavior. If I owned a business and saw your dog lunge, your dog would not be coming back. Period. There is a lot of suspicion surrounding owner-trained service dogs. While it is completely legal, it is often used by people with a fake service dog. It puts BAD examples of service dogs out there that give everyone a bad name and threaten each disabled person's right to handle a service dog in public!

I know of a couple owner-trained service dogs that I did not work with the handler. One has bitten people - TWICE - while in stores! :-o Can you imagine?! The dog is 9+ years old, riddled with cancer, and the owner still has this poor old dog pulling his wheelchair around. While she GROWLS at people! 

That is a dog that never had the right temperament to be a service dog, the was forced into the work by a "blind" owner, and is _clearly living a wonderful life_. (sarcasm).

Gloria - a different collar is not going to fix your dog, make it stable or suitable for the work of being a service dog. 

Task training is not big deal. Really. Especially for the mobility set of tasks which it sounds like you are training. (retrieving, turn on lights, opening doors, etc) These are EASY to train for any average dog with average desire to play tug, play fetch, and eat. There is no magic to service dog training, except the difficulty of finding a totally stable, confident dog.

Performing tasks is what fits the_ legal _description of a service dog. Finding a dog with the right temperament is what makes a service dog SAFE, and truly helpful.

This service dog thing is supposed to IMPROVE your life, not make it stressful and complicated!

ETA: I forgot to also say that if you decide to hang onto this dog anyway, you'll be denied a service dog in the future as I don't know of any programs that will place a service dog into a home with an existing dog. Even if you decide to train another dog, DO NOT keep this dog around. Dogs learn from each other and a new dog could begin to express the same problem behaviors. It's not worth the risk!


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## Dave Cartier (Dec 2, 2009)

As Anne and others have given you sound advise, I can only emphasize the importance of having a "bomb-proof" service dog. You owe it to all the future genuine service dogs in training.

I have seen too many people *pretend *to have a service dog to get special privileges only to be kicked out of establishments or airports because their so called service dog was showing aggressive behavior.

Do not make a bad impression for those who actually are training, and in need of a service dog.


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## Tammy St. Louis (Feb 17, 2010)

If you do decide to keep this dog and go against the advise here , please muzzle him in public , for everyones saftey ,... you dont want to be resposible for a bite on someone, 
better safe than sorry


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Anne, I started in SAR with a dog that I spent a great deal of time selecting for because of seeing to many of the other type.
IF that other type of dog is used as a learning curve and no thought to put it in service I can applaud that.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Get rid of that dog, cut your losses and go back to plan A instead of trying to pick up mid stream. The dog is a hazard from what your telling us.


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## Ted Efthymiadis (Apr 3, 2009)

Gloria Miller said:


> Hi. I'm owner-training a service dog and he's done well with all his obedience classes and task training. He's quite smart and loves to work for me. Recently I started his public access training and have encountred a problem. He was never socialized properly as a young puppy and when I got him I noticed he was aggressive at other dogs and small children, not a good sign for a service animal. I took him to dog parks frequently and as long as he's not on a leash there's no aggression with other dogs. He's playful and submissive. But put a leash on him and let him come upon another dog and he barks and lunges at it. He's been getting used to small children but lately he's been lunging at people for no reason. Store cashiers, people on the street, waitresses. I catch him with his prong collar and give him a correction but I'm afraid he's not going to stop this aggression. He doesn't bite people, he warns them to stay away. He doesn't like people putting their hands out to him or starimg at him.
> 
> Yesterday I had him in a very crowded store with shopping carts and little children running around. He was wonderful. No problem. Then I went to dinner with a friend and he was under the table, well behaved. When it was time to leave, and standing at the cashier to pay, the waitress approached us and he lunged at her. It frightens people. I don't know if I should continue training him with a muzzle, or a gentle leader, the pinch-collar I"m using or what. If he can't be used for public access that will limit me although he'll still be an assistance dog at home for me. I never know when he's going to react to someone.
> 
> ...



Step one. Get that dog out of public............

Step two find a trainer who has trained more sever cases than this one, with great success.

If you don't have access to one...... that dog will never be rehabbed.

We do this kind of stuff all the time, it can be done... with the right trainer.

I have a dog right now who was a 100% total rehab. So it can be done, I do it a few times a month.

But for peoples safety, get him out of public for goodness sake.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Ted Efthymiadis said:


> Step one. Get that dog out of public............
> 
> Step two find a trainer who has trained more sever cases than this one, with great success.
> 
> ...


Ted, I never said the dog could not be rehabbed. I used to work with aggressive dogs and it does sound like something that can be improved to live out a happy life as a pet - and not in public!

I've worked with 2 handlers that had questionable service dogs similar to what has been described. Both handlers pushed their dogs far beyond the dogs abilities. In both cases there were near-bite incidences and bother dogs were euthanized. 

The dog has a decent chance of living out a good life as a pet somewhere. But be a service dog?? Heck no!


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

This might be one of my favorite posts ever! It might be the only one that I actually read from the beginning to the end. It just kept getting better. I would like to quote my favorite line out of the post but almost every line is great. 
This sounds like a service dog trained by Lee for a blind person


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

How hard is it to get a dog with a decent temperment? Not even asking for rock solid bomb proof in every situation, but just a dog that is friendly and social and reasonably well balanced. Have I just been lucky in that every dog I've owned (other than the retired security dog) has been safe in public? I've dragged my dogs all over the place, especially when I lived in Toronto - on public transit - buses and streetcars and subways, through parks, down busy streets and sat at cafes and patios and never had an issue with my dog lunging at people, except maybe in delight and enthusiasm for petting, never had to worry that my dogs would react negatively to a random stranger or odd looking person, been able to encourage children, even the shy ones to say hello to my dogs and make a positive impression on them. 

I get that the OP, having come so far with the dog that she rescued does not want to give up on him, but I don't get trying to make a dog work at something he clearly doesn't have an aptitude or correct temperment for. I also think that rehoming or euthanising the dog is much easier as an abstract concept than a reality.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

I have to agree. The more I work around dogs, the more likely I am to say "Get another dog" than try to fix something that is broken. 

Every child out there deserves better. A service dog is placed in positions a pet dog would neve have to face.


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## Megan Berry (Jul 19, 2010)

Ok, so I totally agree with everything posted about the dog not being suitable for service work, but the issues the dog has have me wondering...

You said the dog ONLY lunges on the leash? And that you use a prong? Is the prong/leash your only 'control'? If so, could your nervousness be flowing down-leash? My thought is you could be unintentionally be tensing up on the leash, and 'correcting'. The dog associates the pain with the person/dog in front of him, and gets aggressive. you drop the leash, releasing the tension, and the pain stopps, causing the dog to relax.

is this way off base, trainers? I'm just trying to figure out the pattern... :???:


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Megan Berry said:


> Ok, so I totally agree with everything posted about the dog not being suitable for service work, but the issues the dog has have me wondering...
> 
> You said the dog ONLY lunges on the leash? And that you use a prong? Is the prong/leash your only 'control'? If so, could your nervousness be flowing down-leash? My thought is you could be unintentionally be tensing up on the leash, and 'correcting'. The dog associates the pain with the person/dog in front of him, and gets aggressive. you drop the leash, releasing the tension, and the pain stopps, causing the dog to relax.
> 
> is this way off base, trainers? I'm just trying to figure out the pattern... :???:


Even if, and especially if that is the case, it doesn't change general concensus of "don't work this dog." There are public access situations, not to mention symptoms of a various disabilities and medication side effects that would cause a person to consciously or not tighten the lead.

The scary stuff is when there isn't a pattern.


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## Megan Berry (Jul 19, 2010)

Oh, I completely agree he should not be worked! I'm more so curious about his possibly 'reactive' behavior from a pet aspect. Asistance training aside, could his behavior be attributed to unconsious handler error? Just the overreaction of a possibly handler-sensitive dog? I'm curious to know if the same behavior would be present if he were wearing a normal collar?

like I said, I know he should NOT be taken any further with the assistance training, this is just a behavior question!


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Gloria Miller said:


> Hi. I'm owner-training a service dog and he's done well with all his obedience classes and task training. He's quite smart and loves to work for me. Recently I started his public access training and have encountred a problem. He was never socialized properly as a young puppy and when I got him I noticed he was aggressive at other dogs and small children, not a good sign for a service animal. I took him to dog parks frequently and as long as he's not on a leash there's no aggression with other dogs. He's playful and submissive. But put a leash on him and let him come upon another dog and he barks and lunges at it. He's been getting used to small children but lately he's been lunging at people for no reason. Store cashiers, people on the street, waitresses. I catch him with his prong collar and give him a correction but I'm afraid he's not going to stop this aggression. He doesn't bite people, he warns them to stay away. He doesn't like people putting their hands out to him or starimg at him.
> 
> Yesterday I had him in a very crowded store with shopping carts and little children running around. He was wonderful. No problem. Then I went to dinner with a friend and he was under the table, well behaved. When it was time to leave, and standing at the cashier to pay, the waitress approached us and he lunged at her. It frightens people. I don't know if I should continue training him with a muzzle, or a gentle leader, the pinch-collar I"m using or what. If he can't be used for public access that will limit me although he'll still be an assistance dog at home for me. I never know when he's going to react to someone.
> 
> ...


is this serious...the first sign of aggression with dogs or people should exclude him from service dog work.


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## Jo Radley (Jun 19, 2010)

Hi Gloria

What sort of dog is he and how old is he? How long have you had him? What methods have you used to teach control? What equipment does the dog wear? What disabilities do you have?

Jo


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## Gloria Miller (Jul 22, 2010)

Sorry I haven't responded. I was called away out of town for a few days. 

I appreciate all your suggestions. Jo, he's a labrador. I've had him since he was very young, a few weeks old and he's a year now. My disability is mobility. I'd hoped to use him for bracing and balance with a harness and handle. We haven't been able to begin physical work yet because of his young age. Although he shows some natural tendencies to assiist me. 

If he's unsuitable as a service dog he''ll remain an in-home assistance dog because his tasks are that good. 

Megan, you've described him to a T. That's exactly how he reacts and now I think I'm putting some fear into the leash when we approach small children or men with hats. I probably tighten the pincher prematurely and he might be reacting. I'm reading Feisty Fido by Pat McConnell and so much applies to my dog. I'm just getting to the 'watch me' chapter but that's what I've been doing to distract him when approaching strange dogs and people. Most of the time it works. It's the other times that worry me. When he was younger I used a harness and he was sociable to everyone but as he got more powerful I swtched to the prong on the advice of his obedience trainer. It was to have better control for me. We had group classes and he seemed to develop this lunging, along with all the other dogs in the class, because they were never allowed to mingle with each other. They all always remained on a leash and took turns lunging at each other. The last day of class I suggested that we all drop the leashes and see what happens, of course, they all romped and played with each other like old friends. 

We frequent three different large dog parks and he's never had an incident with a child or other dog. As soon as we enter and I take off his leash he's running with the pack. When there is a fight with other dogs he's an observer on the outer ring or he'll run to my side. He avoids trouble. He'll play with other owners and kids, even lettinig them hug him. This is what is so confusing. And since it's so soon in his training I really hoped that there was some hope to correct it without washing him out as a service animal. Right now I've stopped taking him to the parks. I'm too fearful of someone getting bit, although as yet, he's never bitten anyone. 
I'm still planning on sending him to doggy bootcamp and see what this trainer says. I may have to keep him as a home helper but I do plan on keeping him. This dog and I are bonded and I'd never euthanize him. He's one of three dogs I own.


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## Tiffany Geisen (Nov 4, 2008)

Gloria Miller said:


> We had group classes and he seemed to develop this lunging, along with all the other dogs in the class, because they were never allowed to mingle with each other. They all always remained on a leash and took turns lunging at each other. The last day of class I suggested that we all drop the leashes and see what happens, of course, they all romped and played with each other like old friends.



Am i the only one wondering what kind of trainer runs a group class that by the end of it all dogs are lunging on the leash? And why would you continue to go to this class if all the dogs begin to exhibit the same bad behaviors?

And if you have had him since he was very young why did you not socialize him properly knowing you wanted to make a service dog out of him? And I agree Ann teaching a dog a retrieve task is quite simple. My ring dog learned to retrieve beers and throw away empties consistently in one evening...lol


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

I am not sure any dog destined for service work (and assuming he is now a wash) should be playing at a dog park anyway. Is this common?

For our SAR dogs we strongly encourage everyone to have dogs that are "dog neutral" as we don't need a dog at work to be thinking about playing with a stray dog no matter how friendly - I would think that would also be important for a service dog.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

not normal to have them play at a dog park no, and not normal to take them to group classes where they can lunge at eachother...


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Leash Aggression

It's not the end of the world. It does not make the dog "ruined" forever. It does not make the dog unworkdable for the rest of it's of life. it could, but it's not an automatic death sentence. 

I suggest checking out some stuff on leash aggression by Dr. Patricia McConnel. 


And to everyone else. I have a question. How's letting fear dominate your decision making process been working out for you?


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## Gloria Miller (Jul 22, 2010)

Thanks James, I'm reading her book now and it's all falling into place. When my out of town guests leave today I'm going to start some training per her book. I'm not giving up on this dog until after he's evaluated and I've tried this new technique.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Nancy Jocoy said:


> I am not sure any dog destined for service work (and assuming he is now a wash) should be playing at a dog park anyway. Is this common?
> 
> For our SAR dogs we strongly encourage everyone to have dogs that are "dog neutral" as we don't need a dog at work to be thinking about playing with a stray dog no matter how friendly - I would think that would also be important for a service dog.


I don't think so, of course "anything goes" for owner-trained dogs. Owner trained dogs fail my certification test for 1) soliciting attention from children and 2) not being neutral to other dogs.

Besides the obvious problems with service dogs not being neutral to other dogs, there is also a public health concern of a service dog being exposed to zoonotic disease at a dog park and then transmitting it to the public. There is the worry of the dog being injured at a dog park and being unable to work. (This can have huge consequences in itself.)

I train psychiatric service dogs and they don't get "time off" like a mobility dog that is only used to perform specific behaviors like retrieving and opening doors. The psychiatric service dog must alert the handler to physical and behavioral changes - changes in the handler's heart rate, or respiration rate, for example. The dog can't do its job while it is distracted by playing with other dogs.

Service dogs get a lot of physical exercise and mental stimulation. A service dogs burns 20% more energy than a pet dog. They are on the go constantly - often working 16 hoiur days. They get daily training to reinforce the tasks they know and to learn new tasks. They get constant human interaction.

There is no benefit in taking a service dog to a dog park and it is ceratinly not worth the risk!

If any of the service dogs I train is in a dog park, I have the legal right to repossess the dog.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Gloria Miller said:


> Thanks James, I'm reading her book now and it's all falling into place. When my out of town guests leave today I'm going to start some training per her book. I'm not giving up on this dog until after he's evaluated and I've tried this new technique.


Can I just say I think this is a bad, bad, very bad idea? (And only because of your goal to have this be a service dog?)

Thresholds are fluid. Yes, you can work with a dog and move the threshold one way or another. And then you pat yourself on the back with your "fixed" dog. Stop training. And the threshold begins to move back. Until one day, something awful happens and you're trying to figure out what possessed your dog.

You really want to make an already unpredictable behavior even MORE unpredictable?

](*,)

If you were talking about a pet dog, I'd say "Yes! Absolutely! Go for it!" But this isn't a pet dog we're talking about. 

You're not just risking the safety of yourself or your family. You're risking the safety of other people! And you're risking the right for every disabled person to train or handle a service dog.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

James Downey said:


> And to everyone else. I have a question. How's letting fear dominate your decision making process been working out for you?


I prefer to call it a base of knowledge grounded firmly in scientific study, and a sense of social responsibility.

How is it working for me?

Great! Happy, stable service dogs saving lives. Can't get much better than that.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Megan Berry said:


> Oh, I completely agree he should not be worked! I'm more so curious about his possibly 'reactive' behavior from a pet aspect. Asistance training aside, could his behavior be attributed to unconsious handler error? Just the overreaction of a possibly handler-sensitive dog? I'm curious to know if the same behavior would be present if he were wearing a normal collar?
> 
> like I said, I know he should NOT be taken any further with the assistance training, this is just a behavior question!


From a behavior aspect, it has really good potential for rehab (for a pet). The dog has way too much equipment on for a start. I assume there is too much tension.

Put the dog on a slip collar on longline. Train the beginning of attention, the beginning of recall, then start adding in the distraction: people. Seeing a person is the cue for the dog to come to heel and continue in attention heeling. It's this fun, easy game and not a big deal.

It's a beautiful solution. Not perfect. It won't make a dog sound and stable, but it gives you really solid management. This is work with moving thresholds, so while it can work well, if the handler doesn't have a solid grasp on what and whay, and isn't skilled at reading his/her dog, there will be future problems.

Sorry for so many posts in a row! I've been away since with being frustrated with the non-dog discussion on the board recently and I wanted to respond to several different things separately!


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## Jo Radley (Jun 19, 2010)

A lot of dogs go through a major fear period around 1 year old. At this stage they need confidence building, that the things they have suddenly found a bit scary are actually safe. Working a dog on a prong collar may build an association between some situations and pain. If you can't control him on a collar wouldn't you be better on a headcollar? This is starting to sound much more like poor dog training than a bad dog. 

I can't comment on the books as I don't know them. In the UK we have the Association of Pet Dog Trainers who use kind, fair and effective methods. Is there a similar organisation where you live? It may also be worthwhile testing his eyes. 

An example of how dogs can change during this period: I have a high drive, very bold working GSD. At around 1 year old she saw a dog poo bin which she had passed several times a week for the last eight months. Suddenly, on that day, it became a scary monster and for 3 weeks she would whine and bark as we passed it, clearly very afraid. I IGNORED her behaviour and after a couple of weeks she just went up to it, sniffed it and decided it was quite ok again. This dog is extremely bold in day to day life and during that short period it was the only thing she reacted to. I made sure I was careful with her during that time and she has grown into a very confident dog.
Jo


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## Gloria Miller (Jul 22, 2010)

As far as I can remember this is how this whole thing started. He was with me on vacation. He'd been doing wonderful in the heavy pedestrian traffic in a busy tourist district. He'd been in a few shops, had dinner in a restaurant and all went perfectly fine. We were going down the street, I'm in a scooter and we were sitting and waiting for the rest of our party to catch up to us and a man sitting on a bench was staring at him. My dog was just sitting at a heel next to my scooter and this man commented on what a beautiful dog he is. He made small talk and then as he was asking me if it was okay to pet him and I was about to say no, the man practically lunged off the bench, crouched, right into the dog's face. And my dog jumped...at him. He didn't bite him but he was definately upset by this guy...who was wearing a hat. The next day I was removing him from my van and as we started down a sidewalk a pitbull on a retractable leash...fully extended, charged at him. He was up on his hind legs while I was trying to get him into a U--turn. The owner realized it wasn't funny and pulled the dog away. Since then, if he's startled by someone from behind him or approaching him fast he gets snarly. Whether he was to continue in SD training or not I'd like to get him over this behavior if possible. The trainer I'm thinking of working with will take him on a jogging path that is full of foot traffic, bikes, dogs, horses and kids. He said they'd encounter everything on this narrow path and it's a good way to get his reaction because he can see all this traffic coming at him. I've bought a gentle leader collar and also a soft muzzle. I haven't used either one yet. I'm also starting to apply the suggestions in the Fiesty Fido manual...using a 'watch' command to distract him when coming upon other dogs. He's already had a pretty solid 'watch me' command from his obedience classes, so it's working pretty well in our in-home training. We just need to get out and practice it in public. And of course, changing trainers.


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## Gloria Miller (Jul 22, 2010)

As far as the dog park issue, this is where I'm able to get the open, off-leash areas to train my dog. These are forest preserves that require a license and vet certificate for admittance. Children under ten are not permitted. One park includes a training pond for dogs only. It's not like I'm taking him out on the street to pick up trash as a stunt for the public. I would think that is far more dangerous for a dog's health. I'm uncertain how you all socialized your dogs without interacting with other dogs? I realize that owner-trainers aren't worth a grain of salt but I've got two pet dogs that could pass any Public Access Test on a bad day, and call them service dogs, as there is NO CERTIFICATION test required.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Gloria - what state are you in? In WI, what that guy did is harassing a service dog. If you knew who he was you could press charges and recoup ALL of your training costs since that incident AND if you wash out your dog, pay for a new dogs and all of the training to get it up to the point where this dog is.

IF you can be 100% certain that one single incident caused the behavior and there is no weak or unstable temperament, then there's a better chance of rehabilitating / solivng the problem. HOWEVER, my opionion on aggression in a servic dog / potential service dog is "one strike you're out."



> It's not like I'm taking him out on the street to pick up trash as a stunt for the public.


Not sure if this is a direct jab at me or a coincidence. :lol: http://volumeone.org/magazine/articles/227/No_Need_to_Fear_Trash_Dog_Is_Here.html And for the record I DID NOT say the last line that she "quoted" me. #-o

Socializing without dog interaction is easy. Do everything you would normally do except don't allow your dog to sniff or touch anouther dog for any reason. It's all about training a dog to focus on the job, not on the environment.

DO NOT, DO NOT flood your dog by exposing him to heavy traffic. Start in controlled situations. Thresholds. That's all it is.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

*Trash Dogs*



Anne Vaini said:


> Not sure if this is a direct jab at me or a coincidence. :lol: http://volumeone.org/magazine/articles/227/No_Need_to_Fear_Trash_Dog_Is_Here.html And for the record I DID NOT say the last line that she "quoted" me. #-o


Hi Anne

Fred Hassens' pit bull Maddie was picking up trash in Las Vegas
as a "publicity stunt" 10+ years ago. Is that where you got the idea for your dog?


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## Gloria Miller (Jul 22, 2010)

*Re: Trash Dogs*

This happened in Wisconsin Dells as a matter of fact.


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## Gloria Miller (Jul 22, 2010)

*Re: Trash Dogs*

I didn't read this article about you before but I'm kinda surprised that you allow a service animal to pick up after other people. My dog will pick up trash that I accidentally drop on the ground...but it's my trash and his task. I'd be very worried what might be in someone else's garbage. Unless this is a task that's mitigating your disability in some way I can see many disturbinig circumstances for this dog. I'm glad to hear you don't feed a service animal beer, that would be unconscienable. May I ask what your method of training is and where you learned your profession?


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

We did the trash thing while she was in training. It did WONDERS for her retrieve. She had issues with carrying objects before we started it. It was intially a training exercise, but we got a lot of attention for it and it became a media stunt too. Very convenient. :lol: It was also good for her "Leave it" command because there were a lot of things I wouldn't let her retrieve. We were mostly picking up empty cigarette packs. (Heaven forbid!  ) We only did the trash gig as long as it benefitted her training. (I don't have time to waste!) She was never a service dog for me - she was a dual-purpose service dog for a lady in a wheelchair. 

I have a wide background in training styles and methods. I would focus on a particular style, apprentice under a trainer, attend seminars, etc until I fully understood the pros and cons of each method. I'm a holistic trainer, so it is crucial that I can use the most appropriate method for an individual dog/handler team, and for the specific behavior that we are training. I primarily use "clicker training."

I used to train stunt dogs as my passion. A couple years ago I had a moment where I was like "if I can train a dog to stand on it's front legs, I can definitely train a dog to retrieve and open doors!" I already was familiar with disability and service dogs laws, had already trained a service dog for myself, and had worked with owner-trained service dogs. It was just moment when I realized I should stop using my dog training skills to inflate my ego and brag on myself, and should start using my skills to make other people' lives better. After a year or two, I started focusing on one type of service dog for a narrow range of disabilities.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

*Re: Trash Dogs*



Thomas Barriano said:


> Hi Anne
> 
> Fred Hassens' pit bull Maddie was picking up trash in Las Vegas
> as a "publicity stunt" 10+ years ago. Is that where you got the idea for your dog?


I knew I wasn't the first one to do it. 6-ish years ago I saw a no name trainer did it with a pit. I just googled to try to find that video and see who it was, but all I can find is me and Emma. That got reposted all across the pit bull communities and it all over the place now. :S I never thought it would end up online. :shrug:


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