# Fixing the out



## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

I'm sure most people here have heard about this problem solving training for a dog that is having issues with the out. It's supposed to work on the toughest of dogs and uses no compulsion. It goes as follows.....

Have the helper use a tree or fixed object to secure himself for what can be a long ride. Send the dog on the sleeve and the helper goes 'Dead" until the dog lets go. When he does, an out command is given. Short OB is done, then the drill all over again. One more drill will round out the session.

The training is done for a week or two, 2-3 times a day, until the out is solid. The theory is that the dog will associate his action with the out command. Of course, his incentive is the praise and eventual play after the out.

The dog is left to himself during these drills with no input at all by the handler until the dog lets go. Once the out is solid, another decoy can be introduced for a bite reward and control/ direction work. It should progress from there wherein the decoy will eventually add movement and/or resistance during the bite to put the dog in drive before the out.

So, the question is has anyone tried this?. What were your experiences? and what do you think of this? I'm currently working with a GSD on this. I've never done it before but I've known about the drill. Just started today so it would be interesting to know your experiences and what I might expect. Thanks

Howard


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

Whenever I've heard of this method, there has always been an immediate reward (ie: regrip) after the out. Then you can repeat, or the sleeve (or tug) can be slipped to the dog after a short 'fight,' and the dog can either be choked off or out'ed away from the helper (if the dog will out, that is). 

This is pretty much an adaptation of Ivan Balabanov's method of teaching the out.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Sounds familiar - I do that concept with tug games. But here's the deal. If you screw up, the dog will out whenever the decoy stops moving.

Better to teach out with a tug before bringing it to the decoy, IMO.


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

What is the reason for no compulsion here? Sounds like instead of making a clear out responce, you'll get dogs popping off before the out as Anne says or not outing quick enough, making sure that decoy is done moving. Is this why I see so many dogs that can't or wont out at trial? I just don't get what real value this has, unless your dogs too soft to take a correction and in that case, it shouldn't even be on the field anyway. Now we can't even train with pressure?


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

The idea is to stay away from force and let the dog learn. I understand the concern about the dog dropping off the sleeve when the decoy goes limp but the advanced training from there is supposed to address that. It's backing up for sure but if its a major problem you have to go back a ways.

I don't totally agree with the idea. I understand the concept.but, Allowing the dog to dictate the training kinda bugs me.

Howard


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## Kris Finison (Nov 26, 2007)

I can't say I totally agree with it either.
I do think it's interesting that it's trying to push the dog in the direction that it will almost see the out as a portion of the obedience routine.
However, this will only work with dogs that REALLY love obedience. Typically in order to get a dog to like doing obedience you offer rewards, not more obedience.
I'll be curious to hear how it works, though. Especially how it starts to work when the decoy isn't required to freeze up for the out.


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

Anne Vaini said:


> the dog will out whenever the decoy stops moving


So, unless you're NOT training in SchH (and nothing was said about the particular sport being trained for in the OP), why is an automatic out a big deal?


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

I dunno but to me, it seems like it would cause problems not solve them and then you have to go back and fix instead of doing it right the first time.

I'd be there all freaking day with my dog, he wouldn't let go even if the guy was in a comma. He'll carry the sleeve or jacket all day with no person in it. 

How do you normally teach the out Howard? I choke my dogs off and say out when they release (we do this once out of maybe every 4 slips of the sleeve), then I move up to popping them with a pinch a couple times until they release, saying out when they do. I just started the other day saying out before I popped him and the third time we did it, he came off on his own without the pop. This was our first day back after no training in 2 weeks. 

The idea behind this method is never asking the dog more than once to out. No way, no how, he would out the first 100 times I asked him when in drive. He did know the word on the toy and would out at the truck with a sleeve. However of course that all went out the window in drive. Now he knows he can out quickly on his own at my word and will be rewarded with a quick rebite. I don't believe in nagging the dog or begging him to out. I only ask once period. Black and white to the dog. Do what your told, get the reward.

I think the decoy freezing up and playing the waiting game, the whole point would get lost in translation.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Michelle Kehoe said:


> I choke my dogs off and say out when they release (we do this once out of maybe every 4 slips of the sleeve), then I move up to popping them with a pinch a couple times until they release, saying out when they do. I just started the other day saying out before I popped him and the third time we did it, he came off on his own without the pop. This was our first day back after no training in 2 weeks.


Not directed toward me... but I couldn't resist. Here's my way, which I didn't invent and is not totally unique or something.

Starting when pup is young and playing tug, I hold the tug close in and stop moving it. I "imprint" the cue by saying it *just* as I see the pup is going to out. Then reward with rebite/tug etc. It's not long until the pup is happy to out. 

I taught this when my pup was 6 - 12 weeks old. When she was like 10 months old I corrected her once for a sloppy out. Her out is nice and clean with no stress. 

This way of teaching can is not stressful so it prevents problems like:

Chewing on the bite. Chewing on a hold. Chomping/hectic outs. Slow retrieve. Chewing on retrieve. 

Not all dogs can take a compulsion trained out. My dog certainly would not be able to. It's easy to screw up with compulsion and the consequences are hard to fix. 

I've watched a hundred or more hours of video of a trainer using the compulsion out. It seemed like 1/2 of those hours were spent on FIXING the problems caused by compulsion. Now the trainer's own dogs were FABULOUS. Just less experienced people that really screwed up their dogs.

So, if you're fabulous, go for it. If not, maybe try teaching the dog what you expect first before using compulsion.


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

The dog is a certified PSD. Automatic outs on a passive subject is undesireable in a find and bite dog (which this is). This dog has a fairly good out as it is but he's dirty on the out off lead and e collar is verbotten. The handler doesn't want to bring the compulsion any higher than what he uses now, and he would like to use less. I don't like using toys to do out work as a primary motivator for PSD out work unless its a last ditch effort. So I'm trying something different that hopefully makes everyone happy.

Howard


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Michelle Kehoe said:


> How do you normally teach the out Howard? .



Depends on what I'm working with. With my pup I started with food, then switched to the tug shortly thereafter. With the Mali I had last year I used an e collar with very low stim, then a vibrate usually had him off he he didn't listen the first time. With fresh imports with out issues I'll start at the least level of force as possible by using different motivators to get the desired result. Some dogs just don't listen to anything other than a good crack with a pinch though.

Howard


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Howard,

I'd go for it. Let's say you do end up with an automatic out. It's really not that hard to fix *once the out is solid*. Dog outs prematurely and decoy pops the dog in the *ss with a foot or a stick or something. Best if you've got a good decoy that will do it just as the dog starts to THINK about outting. 

Nothing much to loose.


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

Anne Vaini;81970
So said:


> It's not me that's fabulous, just the dog. For what I want and need, a dog that can't take compulsion would be "shit canned" post hast. Baden will out all day long for his tug and I taught that the same way you did. We do tug outs every day durring OB. Dog on a bite who loves the fight, is a whole different ball game, your not going to sweet talk him out of it. My dogs father is just what Howard is describing with this topic dog. You can high stem e-collar him all day, he'll blow right through it. So for the most part I try to keep the corrections and compulsion to a minimum. I don't want to hit max threshold either and be in the same boat. Our way is do it and the reward will follow. The only time the dog wont get a rebite for an out, is in trial. Not a novel way to train by any means, I hear many do it this way as well.
> 
> Interesting theory Howard, let us know if it works. I'm sure it does with some dogs but like anything else isn't for all dogs accross the board.


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Before starting this post I had already done one training session. 

First bite...dog held on for about 8 minutes. Handler marked the out, recall 10 seconds of OB and praise, then rebite.

Second bite...lasted about 5 minutes. Dog became frustrated and bit deeper, howled and did all he could to force me to fight. Mark on the out, and recall. Praise, short OB then rebite.

Third bite....approx 3 min's then mark on the out.

So...the dog gets tired and the bite length is shorter. No secret there. Won't know till later if its working.

Howard


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## Mo Earle (Mar 1, 2008)

with my Hard head Hugo...this did NOT work--we had to change it up....let him have the bite, OUT him, which at first was a battle](*,)...he would resist both the prong and an ecollar correction just to stay on the bite:twisted:...but as sooooon as he let go, he was giving an immediate re-bite-that became his reward...no obedience,and once he caught on...he would let go immediately on command, and look for the rebite..which has made his OUT guards nice...we did "mark" the OUT with a excited response...and immediately directed him to re-bite...so bite out,bite out, bite out...it worked wonders!!! :grin:\\/also, in some of the "sports" if that is the direction you are going, some of the Decoys are not going to stop the fight which will make it hard for the dog to out on your command if you only train the way you described, and on others if your dog OUTS when the Decoy stops but before the Handler can command him to OUT...you will lose points there also. Mo


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I've seen the out with a rebite for reward done at our club. The dog is the sire to my pup. When he came to club he had been beaten, pinched, cattle prodded, choked out, you name it. Nothing phased him. He fought everything till he figured out that it ment another bite. 
At first I thought about the out when the fiight stopped but in the real world what are the odds of that happening. Also, that could be attented to later. 
FYI, the dog was later sold to a national level competitor who insisted in going back to the traditional training. The dog got one of his canine teeth knocked out for it and went back to fighting when he was corrected from either end.


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## Matthew Grubb (Nov 16, 2007)

Howard… I’ve dome this many times. It works but is hard on the decoy. Last time we did it….. 25 minutes for the first out and 37 for the second. Every muscle in my back was pulled. 

Here is a great article Bob Eden wrote on the “self out”: http://www.policek9.com/html/selfout.html


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## Ian Forbes (Oct 13, 2006)

Howard,

Like anything else, I'm sure it could be adapted to work for almost any dog.

-I don't think the dog will automatically out when a decoy stops moving - the cue should be the 'out' command, not the lack of movemement from the decoy.
-I don't see why you could not send the dog to a second decoy, as a reward for a good 'out' on the first one.

I'll be interested to see how you get on with the method.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

H-
Does the dog enjoy biting? Or does he view biting as a conflict that needs to just go away? If he bites and holds the sleeve forever, the "game/pressure" can't continue and the dog's problem is done. No more conflict to deal with... If the dog is happy biting, biting full, ears open and no real verbal pressure, he holds the sleeve w/o problems, then outs. When or how is he dirty? IE: Dog bites and then wants to bite all over the sleeve, it would be in conflict, too much pressue. If it bites to be dirty and tries to rebite, have the decoy walk off and give it no more bites. Bite one time, bite hard, bite full, and win. If it likes to bite, it would out to then get the chance to bite and fight some more. This one I like....:-k :mrgreen:


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Dog is solid, not nervy at all. Kinda rare for a show line PSD. Dirty out...leaves the sleeve/suit top and hits the leg on the way out before recall. Clear headed and enjoys the bite, no fear at all. I don't wan't to take a chance on ruining what we have so far and the more I think about this training, the more I'm not liking it. I believe its a wash and will try something else to clean the dog up. May have to buck the system and get out the ecollar.

Howard


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Ian Forbes said:


> Howard,
> 
> 
> -I don't see why you could not send the dog to a second decoy, as a reward for a good 'out' on the first one.
> ...


 Hi Ian, 

we've done plenty of this. He gets hectic and outs prematurely. Too much of a good thing. You can see his mind working but his eyes are wandering, not focused on task at hand with the 2 decoy drill. It starts out good but quickly goes to crap.

Howard


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## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

I’m not a fan of the method suggested by Mr. Eden. I've tried it and have seen quite a few others do so too. It can cause problems that take weeks to cure and by that time the out is gone again. 

References by this author to the Ecollar shows that he only knows how to use the tool as a novel way to cause pain to the dog. He talks about "eventually run[ning] out of levels to notch up that collar. The method I use with the Ecollar uses the tool at the level that the dog first feels it. High levels are almost never necessary. 

This author also shows that he doesn't know how to wean the dog off the Ecollar as he writes, " … you will NEVER have a guarantee of a clean call out unless that collar is on …" It's easy to do the weaning off, but I see no reason to do so with police dogs. Since a dog can, at anytime for many reasons disobey a command, having the Ecollar on him whenever he's working is an advantage in that you can always give him a reminder that obeying is not optional. 

This method requires "an agitator with a lot of saavy, know how, strength, stamina and who is a glutton for punishment." If you don't have a decoy like that, don't try this method. 

This method has the decoy ceasing all movement as soon as the dog bites. Yet we work hard to get our dogs to bite passive decoys because this may occur in the real world. This method has the dog stopping the bite without a command because the decoy has stopped moving and the dog gets tired. Doing this is counter to having the dog bite a passive decoy. It creates a problem in that the dog will probably self–out if the crook stops moving. I don't want a dog to release his bite until and unless he gets a command from the handler. 

This author tells us that he once had a dog bite a passive decoy for 47 minutes. He tells us why this works. "The dog eventually gets tired. The jaws get sore and he starts to wind down. I don’t care how tough your dog his, he will eventually wear himself out." Biting becomes painful. It hurts so the dog stops biting. I think it's a bad idea for a dog to form a painful association with biting. It's likely to carry over and cause more problems. We spend a lot of time getting the dog to take a full mouth bite and to hold on until he gets a release command. This method is completely counter to that work. 

This author says, "Keep things short, very quick and snappy, so that the obedience routine and subsequent ball snap are just as exciting, if not more exciting than his bite session." This method at some point has the chasing of a ball becoming more exciting to the dog than the bite. This will happen because you've made the bite something that the dog no longer enjoys. Now the association that's been made with the bite is one of pain. If you're working the dog on the street during this training, I think that you can imagine the consequences if you need him to bite a serious criminal while this training is going on. The author talks about this taking as long as two weeks to complete. Can you take your dog out of service for that long? 

This author says, "You will have a dog that loves to come off the bite as much as he goes on the bite because he has learned that it is painless, and fun because dad makes it just as exciting with the diversity of routines." 

The problem is that you've created an association of pain with the bite that may NEVER go away.


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Lou Castle said:


> The problem is that you've created an association of pain with the bite that may NEVER go away.


 And allowed the decoy to beat/win over the dog. Another taboo for PSDs. I've never been a real fan of this method but was willing to try it. Glad I've reconsidered as the negatives outweigh the positives.

Another thing that bugged me was that the toy became a reason to out. I've said it before...not a big fan of using a toy during bitework for PSDs or PPDs. I want the mindset to stay where it belongs, fighting the bad guy and not thinking of play. 

Shoulda went with my first instincts, eh? Live and learn.

Howard


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I only read page one, but jeez you people are out there with how to train out. 

Howard, I have heard of people using this method. For me, I try to figure out what the motivation is for the problem, ie was it taught badly, say......choking the dog until it outs LOL Or if the dog is just saying **** you.

I have used variations of this and it worked pretty well as long as I was the decoy. LOL


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I only read page one, but jeez you people are out there with how to train out.
> 
> Howard, I have heard of people using this method. For me, I try to figure out what the motivation is for the problem, ie was it taught badly, say......choking the dog until it outs LOL Or if the dog is just saying **** you.
> 
> I have used variations of this and it worked pretty well as long as I was the decoy. LOL


Ok Jeff how about you share with us how your club works the out? Many different ways and many different dogs.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Lou,
"This method has the decoy ceasing all movement as soon as the dog bites. Yet we work hard to get our dogs to bite passive decoys because this may occur in the real world. This method has the dog stopping the bite without a command because the decoy has stopped moving and the dog gets tired. Doing this is counter to having the dog bite a passive decoy. It creates a problem in that the dog will probably self–out if the crook stops moving. I don't want a dog to release his bite until and unless he gets a command from the handler."

You are right, this is why I don't want MY dog to "out" until I command it. The street dirtball stops fighting, the dog outs, the bad guy goes for a gun, a cop is killed or shot all to pieces...and the point is...when I say. Passive bite scenarios have excellent reasons for their use. Just because the bad guy is hooded up and walking away doesn't mean there isn't an issue to be addressed. The dog MUST bite in a passive mode; decoy standing, lying, sitting, or walking. The decoy doesn't need to be yelling their fool head off. The bad guy breaking into the home never knockes and annouces his intentions. Stealth. And when I get there and 911 is called, I MIGHT release my dog. Now, how do you dial "911?" :-k :mrgreen:


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Howard Knauf said:


> And allowed the decoy to beat/win over the dog. Another taboo for PSDs. I've never been a real fan of this method but was willing to try it. Glad I've reconsidered as the negatives outweigh the positives.
> 
> Another thing that bugged me was that the toy became a reason to out. I've said it before...not a big fan of using a toy during bitework for PSDs or PPDs. I want the mindset to stay where it belongs, fighting the bad guy and not thinking of play.
> 
> ...


Howard this is an excellent point, having the dog viewing the toy as part of a play mode. Will the bad guy "play" if the dog is nice? NOT! A few hard stick hits, using a whiffle ball bat or padded stick can have some dogs doing the sideways waddle. Anything to get away. Real PPDs or PSDs need to feel the power of a few body shots and how to counter with stronger bite action. If you ever had a boxing or karate lesson and the guy kicks you in the nuts, they keep sparring. Your job is to suck it up and kick butt back...I know! Bar fights don't stop if a drink has been tipped, if they do, someone tell me the bar and I'll pay the cover charge.


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## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

Howard Knauf said:


> And allowed the decoy to beat/win over the dog. Another taboo for PSDs.


Great point Howard. 



Howard Knauf said:


> Another thing that bugged me was that the toy became a reason to out. … I want the mindset to stay where it belongs, fighting the bad guy and not thinking of play.


Another great observation. Teaching the dog that play is what comes after an out takes him out of a combat drive (no matter which one he's in) and puts him into play drive. I prefer to use a method that keeps him in combat.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Matthew Grubb said:


> Howard… I’ve dome this many times. It works but is hard on the decoy. Last time we did it….. 25 minutes for the first out and 37 for the second. Every muscle in my back was pulled.
> 
> Here is a great article Bob Eden wrote on the “self out”: http://www.policek9.com/html/selfout.html


I watched this done* last year (it was a success). As Bob said:


Bob Scott said:


> He fought everything till he figured out that it me[a]nt another bite ....


It was that Bob Eden article that the TD was using, in fact.

ETA: *PSD


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## Butch Cappel (Aug 12, 2007)

The wear em out ‘Out’ technique never caught on and I think for good reason. I first encountered it in the early nineties when Bob Eden used it in his K9 International Police seminars. I trial tested it in my guard dog company 

We tried about a dozen dogs with this method and achieved about four dogs with good outs. Those were only in training. In the excitement and stress of an actual apprehension I think one dog was ever really reliable.

It is a time consuming technique, and I found that after most decoys work it a few times, with a really high drive dog, they prefer picking their nose with a claw hammer to working this technique.

One of the ‘tricks’ I found efficient on our patrol dogs was teaching the out when we had worked them with a higher degree of defense. When working defensively, instead of prey driven, the dogs were instinctively more likely to rebite for a more devastating hold on the threat. 

You can use this instinctive tendency, to teach the out in a street dog, and the extra stimulation and excitement of the apprehension will help with the out, plus you get less bite inhibition as is common after hard corrections with a prong or e-collar.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I'm not really sure if the dog is doing it because it's "wearing out". The dog I'm talking about did a rebite that lasted almost as long as the original bite. 
I would think it's more that the dog isn't getting the satisfaction after hbeing on the sleeve so long.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

The technique I've seen and it may be what some are talking about. After the dog bites, the handler basically hangs the dog until it spits out the sleeve. Lead or collar, the dog or puppy is off the ground in what amounts to a vertical choke hold...I think this causes conflict at both ends of the lead. Conflict with the decoy and now the dog has a handler choking the life out of it from the rear. 

A good "out" in the puppy stage should be one were the puppy holds the sleeve and enjoys the fruit of its labor, then expels it. The command "Out!" is given with high, light, praise. The game quickly begins again.
I have done a technique with older puppies and dogs, the animal facing the decoy and at the heel position. The head is held up with the right hand and the left hand pushes in on the left rib cage. Command the "out" and go again. Little conflict here.

So at what stage in the foundation work are you seeing conflict with the "out?" I think this would be helpful information for new folks, to see the early issues rather than trying to fix what many cannot. It would be helpful to me to know if some issues are breed based or just poor training. How say the group?! :-k


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## Barrie Kirkland (Nov 6, 2007)

Interesting topic this as everyone has ther own take on it due to experience.

my PD is great and leaves on command and recalls with ease. However my sport dog a bulldog the matter is somewhat different. From a young age he would OUT on toys tugs etc immediately. 

However when introduced to a helper , he isnt keen to out. The sleeve is slipped and he will out crisply. So over time & experience i have come to the conclusion its the fight he wants , the sleeve win is second to the fight.

The dog is comfortable on the bite and just fights with all his might, to the extent there isn no helper i have ever seen that can fully control him. I think with the bulldogs casue they are strong they can pull helpers about so the sleeve never goes dead hence he believes the fight is still on. 

With regard E-collars can i say they dont work on some bulldogs they just fight through it , this couple with the higher pain threshold they have. So i had to use repetition & conditioning to work through the out problem.

With the AB your fighting against genetic they were breed to hold & not let go , also to work very independent of the handler. On the up side you will never run him haha. Oh herders are a dream to work in comparison haha


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Barrie where did you get your bullfrog? Ooops :mrgreen: 
Yep, bred to bite and hold, this is one reason they MUST be taught good techniques and targeting at an early age. I have seen a handful and most never made the grade. Can't broad-brush the breed on what I've seen. Some have great nerves and others are no good. So, where did your dog come from? Have you done any livestock testing with it? Calf barns or yearlings?


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## Barrie Kirkland (Nov 6, 2007)

He came from Germany imported to the UK, he is taller & athletic than most you will see. I agree with your opinion there is no consistency throughout the breed hence they all look different. In protection he works nice his targetting is spot on and now his OB is good, thats down to patience as all AB dont target well from the start they tend to nip the cuff.

I can say in protection he is harder than herders & will take far more punishment, of course thats the achilles heel of the breed. I also do hidden persons with him for something different which is fun as he is very intimidating haha

I stopped him from going near livestock, if i hadnt i would have had a real problem. Until there are generations of the breed bred for purpose sport ot service you will never see consistency, of course by then they wont be bulldogs they will be something else


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

Howard Gaines III said:


> The technique I've seen and it may be what some are talking about. After the dog bites, the handler basically hangs the dog until it spits out the sleeve. Lead or collar, the dog or puppy is off the ground in what amounts to a vertical choke hold...I think this causes conflict at both ends of the lead. Conflict with the decoy and now the dog has a handler choking the life out of it from the rear.
> 
> A good "out" in the puppy stage should be one were the puppy holds the sleeve and enjoys the fruit of its labor, then expels it. The command "Out!" is given with high, light, praise. The game quickly begins again.
> I have done a technique with older puppies and dogs, the animal facing the decoy and at the heel position. The head is held up with the right hand and the left hand pushes in on the left rib cage. Command the "out" and go again. Little conflict here.
> ...


I have never hung my dog but I pull up on the collar, his feet are still on the ground. My dog also hasn't shown any signs of conflict, never warry of going right back at the decoy. However I did get some avoidance when I would approach my dog in the early stages because I had taken things from him as a pup and he didn't want to be taken from the bite. I noticed this and stopped doing it at home.(Always play 2 ball or tug with your pup, trade him toys until he gets the out)(Also the reason I don't like pups living in the house unless you are super diligent about trading him for your socks, shoes and anything else he decides to get into) Avoidance went away, the choking didn't faze him a bit. Of course everything was a slip in the beggining.(I'm lucky as hell my dog is very forgiving and recovers quickly from anything I screw up. No doubt I can attribute that to his GSD blood. No doubt if he was a bully breed, I'd need to shoot him in the head and start over, Dutchie, he would have eaten me already and Mal...eh we won't even go there)

I also don't see any difference in pulling head up and poking in the ribs, it's still an uncomfortable distraction, held until a release takes place. I know French Ringers that put their hand under the flank and pull the dog butt up and head down until they out, whatever the technique or whatever name you give it, it's still a shock factor or uncomfortable deal for the dog and that's why he outs. Again, whatever works for whatever dog. You can't say I do it this way and it's the right way. Another way may work just as well for another dog and your way completely ignored. 

I just worked the out again last night with my dog and he's still doing great, no conflict. The first 2 times I popped at the same time I said out, he released with no problem (no need to keep popping multiple times) 3rd time said out slightly before, I didn't pop yet and he came off, sat, waited for his rebite.(when I say pop, I don't mean take his head off. I give a mild correction as if I'm working OB at home) I'm lucky my dogs a quick study and very willing to please, not into fighting me tooth and nail, so we wont have to go with higher stem anytime soon and hopefully ever. TD caught me not popping the dog and said don't pull that again. If he didn't out, I'd be showing him he has the option to not out, we don't want that. Sure some of you will say that's unfair to the dog but it will save him countless hourse of relearning down the road and me countless trials not passing because he wont out in 3 commands. Dog doesn't seem to give a crap about the pop, he's happy because he understands the rebite is coming.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: Ok Jeff how about you share with us how your club works the out? Many different ways and many different dogs.

I do not belong to a club, but from what I hear the club that I train with uses the Mike Ellis approach. None of them have to lift the dog to get it to out.

Lets start here.

Quote: .(I'm lucky as hell my dog is very forgiving and recovers quickly from anything I screw up. No doubt I can attribute that to his GSD blood. No doubt if he was a bully breed, I'd need to shoot him in the head and start over, Dutchie, he would have eaten me already and Mal...eh we won't even go there)

wow, I just love how stupid this statement is. I am basking in the warmth of it.

Quote: I have never hung my dog but I pull up on the collar, his feet are still on the ground. My dog also hasn't shown any signs of conflict,

So where does the command come in ????? Just curious, as you have no conflict.......with the decoy.

Quote: I just worked the out again last night with my dog and he's still doing great, no conflict. The first 2 times I popped at the same time I said out, he released with no problem (no need to keep popping multiple times) 

So magically without conflict your dog outs from a correction. I can see that you have explained in detail to your dog exactly what he needs to know. The fun part is that your TD sounds about as brilliant LOL Poor guy, I would hate to have you describing training if you were in my club.

Quote: I know French Ringers that put their hand under the flank and pull the dog butt up and head down until they out,

What absolute moron told you this ?????? Never ever done that one, but then again, unlike you, I know how to train the out so I don't need to do these things. By the way, my puppy outs at 5 months and all I have to do is ask, wonder what the **** your dogs problem is LOL

Quote: TD caught me not popping the dog and said don't pull that again. If he didn't out, I'd be showing him he has the option to not out, we don't want that. Sure some of you will say that's unfair to the dog but it will save him countless hourse of relearning down the road and me countless trials not passing because he wont out in 3 commands.

Gods honest truth, that is the most retarded thing I have ever heard, it really insults retards everywhere.

Do me a favor, find a Mike Ellis seminar and just go learn the correct way to train a dog, and some better definitions. He is a really good trainer, and a much nicer guy than me.


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

And again...Jeff has allot to say, yet little to offer. Maybe I'm not the best at explaining it but it works for me and my dog. Still waiting to hear how your alll knowing ass does it....

So fun to try and have a civil discussion about training.

I'm also sure my TD has done more than you ever will Jeff. Instead of running his mouth , he just does it.


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## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

Barrie Kirkland said:


> With regard E-collars can i say they dont work on some bulldogs they just fight through it , this couple with the higher pain threshold they have.


The way that I use the Ecollar has nothing to do with "pain thresholds or "fighting through it." It's used where the dog first feels it. Rarely is there need to go any higher. It's NOT just a different way to cause discomfort to get the dog to release. 

I have never found a breed or an individual that an Ecollar doesn't work on. 



Barrie Kirkland said:


> So i had to use repetition & conditioning to work through the out problem.


Using an Ecollar involves "repetition & conditioning" as well.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: I'm also sure my TD has done more than you ever will Jeff. Instead of running his mouth , he just does it.

I really feel bad that you are representing him as badly as you are. It reads that he is clueless.

By the way, my dog outs just fine. Are you sure he has done more than I have ????? Kinda tricky there. LOL


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

Jeff, your dogs a llttle older than mine and already trialed. I hope to hell he outs. We just started working the out seriously on my dog 6 sessions ago. Still waiting on your wisdom....


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Do a search as I have talked about this on this board extensively. 

if you want to do another search, just go to general conversation and read my post on Bukos first trial. He was not ready, and I knew it, I just went for myself. "hope" is something that you should not be counting on when trialing. Otherwise you get to have a lot of fun stories, which is good for me, as the journey is the fun part, the other part is making fun of how serious people take themselves. Loook at my dog, look at my dog bla bla bla. Like anyone cares, to me it's like baby pics. All I am thinking is oh great, your breeding. More tards the world doesn't need.:lol: :lol: :lol: 

You have to understand that I am not going to change, and I will always point out stupid shit no matter what the cost to myself. If I lose a place to train for having an opinion, or because someone took themselves to seriously, and I laugh at them for it, so be it. So when I am making fun of you for choking a dog as a way of teaching the out on a board that I have been on for a long time, it is probably not nearly as personal as you would hope it would be. 

Soooooooo, use the search function, as I know there are threads on teaching the out, and seriously look into visiting Mike's seminars. Oh sure, I know it is scary, but he is a really nice guy, and not all that far from you I think. GOT to be better than teaching the out by choking the dog off of shit. GOtta figure you think I am an idiot, and I didn't even touch my dog to teach the out..........later we had issues, oh sure, but thats just when we are both drunk and silly.


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## Lisa Maze (Mar 30, 2007)

Hi Michelle, 

I didn't pick your thread because I disagreed with it but because it set up the perfect outline for some points I wanted to add to the discussion.

Lisa



Michelle Kehoe said:


> I have never hung my dog but I pull up on the collar, his feet are still on the ground.
> 
> Basically, this is a mini, handler oriented version of the technique described by the "OP". The point being all fun stops after the out. I think this technique is appropriate with young dogs we are still building drive in as the pup fatigues and must drop the sleeve as he cannot use his feet to help him hold it or drop it to the ground to get a better grip on it. By the time my pup is an older adolescent (over 9 months), I want him to do a "victory' lap, come into heel and sit and release the sleeve as soon as I ask for it. If I cannot ask for and get the sleeve the dog is not ready to out the sleeve on the decoy.
> 
> ...


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

Lisa beautiful post, I actually like how you broke it down with mine. This is what I'd like to see more of. Loved the "precious" anallogy. That IS my dog. If left up to him, he would take it and go lay down to coddle his toy. The food trade didn't even work, had to be another ball that was the same and then I switched it to a tug.


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## Barrie Kirkland (Nov 6, 2007)

Lou Castle said:


> The way that I use the Ecollar has nothing to do with "pain thresholds or "fighting through it." It's used where the dog first feels it. Rarely is there need to go any higher. It's NOT just a different way to cause discomfort to get the dog to release.
> 
> I have never found a breed or an individual that an Ecollar doesn't work on.
> 
> ...


 
Lou, i dont feel confident enough in my own abilties to use the collar correctly, that i have no issue in saying openly. I know & understand what your saying. Its just that i have found other methods to circumvent the issue. Its like everyone would say i wish you were here to see it


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## Matthew Grubb (Nov 16, 2007)

There is no magic cure for out issues that works on every dog. I think the most important issue is to figure out why the dog isn’t outing and then come up with a consistent plan for addressing the cause.
Is it an obedience issue?
Is it a possessiveness issue?
Is it poor initial or current training?
Is it prior abuse for not outing? (These suck to fix)
I’m sure there are other reasons for not outing, but these are the ones I see most frequently. Once you figure out the cause, then you have to figure out what works for that particular dog. Once you figure out what works, you need to look at what you can change in your training regiment to re-enforce your success.


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## Butch Cappel (Aug 12, 2007)

Short, Sweet, straight to the point!
Logical, informative, well written!
No insults, no demeaning remarks!

Damn, Mr. Grubb! I could get used to posts like that! 
Great post!


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## Chris Duhon (May 24, 2007)

I'v seen the method Howard spoke of but in my rehlm have not seen it successful, the dogs started auto outting when the suspect goes dead. Plus we do dead man bites also to make sure they bite a motionless person. This is obviously a problem for our PSD's. 

My current Police Service dog, Vito is an extremely high strung Mal. He outs good with toys but when it comes to biting equipment he used to out right refuse and was willing to take it to the handler if neccessary. What I did to fix it, and it seemed to have worked very well. He has always outted on the first or second command to out while on a live suspect bite. At times it looked really sporty, but hey whatever. 

We backtied him to a post while on a harness. The harness was kind of important, as choking some extremely high drive mals tend to make the hold on more. Hooked up 2 prong collars each connected to a seperate long 20ft line. I stayed nearby so he could receive the commands from me, and he was fed a bite from a decoy. When it was time to release he was told once and then the guys out on the long lines would tune him up. At first he outted but only because he wanted me. I stood there (cause he couldn't get to me) and immediately gave him the command Auff (down) which was followed a split second after the command with pressure from the long line guys. As soon as he complied with my down command I'd tell him Stellen and the decoy comes in for the bite. After the second time of that he has never given me a problem since. We did this before I ever got a bite with him on the street. When I got my first bite with him, it was beautiful, no loss of drive, very vocal (before the bite), but when I commanded him to out, he spit it out. I was shocked that he would out so clean on a live bite. The next day to test it and see we put him back on equipment and the out was again very, very clean. 

To reward him for outting on a live bite, I give him his PVC and let him take it back to the car and lavish in the patrol car with his pipe for a few minutes alone. 
God I love this dog, he is the absolute best Mal I have ever laid eyes on. This dog is the poster child for Malinois. I'm going to miss him. I turn him over to his new handler next week so I can start on the suppression team. :roll: (thats not me rolling my eyes, it's me holding back the tears.[-(


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Hi Chris,

I did something similar with this dog a while back. Only 1 long line though. I was behind the handler so the dog couldn't see me give the correction, it only came when he refused to out. It worked OK for a while. Think I'll try two prongs next time. The handler wants to keep compulsion to a minimum but we may not have a choice.

When your corrections came, were they just steady pressure or were they snap corrections?

Sucks you giving up Vito. At least you can keep tabs on him.

Howard


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## Chris Duhon (May 24, 2007)

They were snap corrections. This dog would hold on to something until he blacked out and went to sleep if you kept constant pressure such as choking out. He would just go black before giving it up. Strong Snap corrections are what worked for him.


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Thanks a lot.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Chris on your passive bites, do you do seated and standing bite scenarios? Or do you do no agitation walk aways?


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## Chris Duhon (May 24, 2007)

> Sucks you giving up Vito. At least you can keep tabs on him.


Yeah, I know. The good thing is he's going back to a guy that had him before me, and the guy and I are really good friends. We were in the Same Battalion in the 82nd Airborne Division back at Bragg, but he got out years ago and came home to get on the PD. I have already started calling myself "Uncle" Chris to Vito instead of DAD  The name us handlers use when around the other handlers dogs. I'll definately be back in K9, I didn't think I'd miss it this much and I haven't even left just yet. I feel like Vito knows, When we get close to the house at the end of shift, he amps it up, and starts turning circles and barking and will scratch on the cage cause he wants out, when I let him out, he runs tail wagging to his favorite pole to take a leak on, and when I open the door he runs inside and slides down the tiled hallway to a stop and then scurry back the living room and run in circles jumping on the couch, then into the kitchen to a sliding stop and then down the hall to the bathroom to the toilet for a drink :wink: Now he seems to come in kinda depressed looking. He's amped on the job, but it's a 180 when we get home. He use to force my kids to play with him by obnoxiously using his head to push them or throw their hand to say rub me do something, now he just lays there by them quiet. oh, well let me stop now, I could talk about this dog forever. The job change looks good on paper but somehow I feel like I'm making a mistake. :-k Oh well

Let me know if yall do the two prong line how it turns out. On an additional note as I'm sure you already know alot of the outting problem could be lack of respect for the Handler, this method helps clear up some of those pack leader issues also. For instance Vito will try himself on a weak handler and will attempt to take over as leader, therefore when you say out, he laughs at you. This was a safeway for me to inflict some who's boss medicine on him. He's a take orders from one person kinda dog, so he is still like that with my supervisor for instance who can handle him some, but not like I. Vito's very first handler he's been with 3 to include the guy he's going back to. Vito's first handler, who now works for our S.O. as a handler tried to tell him to sit one day, as I was jumping up into the back of a trailer on a semi for Narc training. Francis was already back there, well I sent Vito in first and told him to stay, but he was ready to go get his find, so he danced around and I'm trying to get into the back of the trailer, Francis thinking well he use to be my dog, I'll tell him to Auff, he does in a loud and commanding voice and what does Vito do, Pause, Stare him right in the eyes and commences to sounding like Cujo. As I jump in the back it's like he snapped back to the real world and looked at me all happy go lucky, like I wasn't suppose to see what he just did. Of course I just ignored it and we moved on. Oh, Damn, there I go again, more stories on Vito. Oh, I'm done ;-)


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

You can't use e-collars? "Out" none <buzz> oh great job sparkie...


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

> You can't use e-collars? "Out" none <buzz> oh great job sparkie...


Nope. Real pisser aint it?




> I have already started calling myself "Uncle" Chris to Vito instead of DAD


 We do the same (except different name of course) 



> Vito's first handler, who now works for our S.O. as a handler tried to tell him to sit one day....I'll tell him to Auff, he does in a loud and commanding voice and what does Vito do, Pause, Stare him right in the eyes and commences to sounding like Cujo.


 My first dog used to harass one of our handlers...he was always showing his teeth to him and grabbing him on the ass every time he had a chance. Some dogs are great at reading character and/or fear. If I threw the leash to him with the dog attatched he would run. LOL.

BTW, I thought Vito was the dog you trained from a pup and he was your personal dog. I guess I'm all confused with the musical handler thing going on.

Howard


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## Chris Duhon (May 24, 2007)

Howard Gaines III said:


> Chris on your passive bites, do you do seated and standing bite scenarios? Or do you do no agitation walk aways?


Howard, on the passive bites we mostly under a house (Louisiana ALOT of homes are off ground) bites where the suspect lays still and refuses to move, or say a word, just play dead. Then the handler gives the command bite, but for safety reasons we feed the dog into the bite with leash to make sure he is going to get a safe bite area. We do vehicle bites, where the guy sits in the car none responsive to any orders and not moving, we send the dog in through the passenger side window while the guy in the suit has his hands on the steering wheel, that way the dog encounters his arm before his face. I'v seen passive bites where the decoy walks away slowly and calmly, I personally don't do em, and don't personally think they test a dogs willingness to bite a passive decoy. The fact that the guy is walking away from the dog envokes a certain level of prey drive in my point of view. So we train as if they guy is dead, that is absolutely motionless and as less prey driven as possible, though the suit will still envoke some prey, but it's as close IMO as you can get. I have sent Vito on a passive suspect under a house who hunkered in a corner and refused to come out. He was in a ball sitting upright with his arms wrapped around his legs watching everything but not moving or saying a word. It's rare that you get a totally passive suspect though. even this guy I'm talking about moved a little as Vito got really close to him. 

We can use ecollars, but with Vito he was ruined by his first handler with the ecollar, a novice dog guy and handler who didn't have any instruction on how to use it, he was frying him. When you put it on him, his ears lay back and his tail stops wagging. I want OB with maximum performance and enthusiasm. With the prong collars, he stays amped but listens.
So I don't use the ecollar with him



> BTW, I thought Vito was the dog you trained from a pup and he was your personal dog. I guess I'm all confused with the musical handler thing going on.


No I started off using Neeka my personal dog that I sold to the PD for a $1 but then they fired Vito's handler and gave me Vito and told me to take Neeka back, they know I was going to replace her soon anyways, (she was my baby). So then I got Vito. Now that I'm going to the suppression team Vito is going back to the handler I got him from. So it'll be familar territory for him. I'm going to be in the K9 (reserves) sorta speak. All 3 handlers live outside the city limits except for me, so when they need emergency K9 I'm on call for that with my dog Fontaine D'or Neeka.


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Thanks for the clarification, Chris.




> on the passive bites we mostly under a house (Louisiana ALOT of homes are off ground) bites where the suspect lays still and refuses to move, or say a word, just play dead. Then the handler gives the command bite, but for safety reasons we feed the dog into the bite with leash to make sure he is going to get a safe bite area.


 These are fun. Its like fishin for bad guys. Most of ours are done under portable classrooms or vehicles.



> It's rare that you get a totally passive suspect though. even this guy I'm talking about moved a little as Vito got really close to him.


 The vast majority of my bites were passive. At least 90% anyway. In Fact, I find it hard to remember even one that wasn't passive. Must be something in the water...that, or its too damn hot to run very far down here.

Howard


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Chris and Howard how do the courts view your passive bites? Do they require the use of "other" measures before the dog is deployed? Are you guys using shank proof vests? Maybe not with the heat. Chris, I've seen guys ruin dogs with electric and every move the dog makes is like it is walking on eggshells. Has your Mal responded to the other training methods better but slower?


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

We're required to give the guy an opportunity if we in fact see him before the dog gets to him. Usually they are so well hidden that the dog gets to them before we do. We use 15 foot tracking leads so the dog is always there before us and being so well hidden is a definate negative for the bad guy. It's a lesson they don't forget. I've had hidden suspects call out to me just before the dog got there because they knew what would happen if they didn't.

The city to the South of us use B&H dogs, ours are F&B dogs. One guy I got hiding in a brush choked ditch said he saw us coming. When I asked him why he didn't give up he said he was hoping the dog would miss him, and if he didn't he would give up when the dog started barking. Bad mistake...obviously he has been found before by a B&H dog and thought they all did that. I told him that in our city we cut the dog's vocal chords (Gotta have some fun) so he better go back to where he's from if he didn't want to get bit again. LOL Criminals are so gullible.

The courts have no issue with a passive bite on criminals. If one occurrs on an innocent person then there is civil recourse.

Howard


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## Chris Duhon (May 24, 2007)

Howard, a passive bite is treated just as a runaway or hostile bite. We first have to announce *IF POSSIBLE AND WILL NOT CAUSE A SAFETY CONCERN FOR THE OFFICER* Police K9 come out or you will be bit by the dog. We say that twice and allow for a response. If the suspect gives up we cannot send the dog, if he refuses to be taken into custody and it's a felony refusing orders from the Officers will warrant you to be bit. If you say flee from Officers in a vehicle pursuit and you ditch the car and run under a house and just lay there refusing to do or say anything, you will be bit. They have not regulated passive bites. 

As for Vito He's not ruined at all as far as performance or anything. He's not handler shy or soft at all. In fact if you get to soft with him, he WILL attempt to take advantage of you, he is a very, very strong headed and dominant dog. Sometimes Officers want to pet him and I'll let them, because I want him to associate the uniform as a familiar good thing, instead he grabs them around the waist and starts humping them and when they try to back away, he shows teeth and growl :lol: :lol: I crack up!! They just stand still like WTF do I do :-o 
The only time he powers down a bit is when you strap an ecollar on him. He responded very well to my traditional training minus the ecollar with no loss of drive.


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Chris Duhon said:


> Sometimes Officers want to pet him and I'll let them, because I want him to associate the uniform as a familiar good thing, instead he grabs them around the waist and starts humping them and when they try to back away, he shows teeth and growl :lol: :lol: I crack up!! They just stand still like WTF do I do :-o


 Now, thats funny right there!:razz:


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## Barrie Kirkland (Nov 6, 2007)

Update on my dog OUT has been fixed. I always believe things when i see them, i saw it and its fixed.

One mans doing and i bow to his abiltiy


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Chris this is funny..."Sometimes Officers want to pet him and I'll let them, because I want him to associate the uniform as a familiar good thing, *instead he grabs them around the waist and starts humping them and when they try to back away, he shows teeth and growl*














I crack up!! They just stand still like WTF do I do







"

If they ask again, "What do I do?" You need to simply say, "Light a smoke and let him finish. When he's done, give him the cigarette."  #-o Get that on video. Thanks for sharing, too funny!


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## Chris Duhon (May 24, 2007)

I had one officer tell me get this dog off, I'm going to charge him with lewd acts in public and sexual battery, I said, Ok, I'm going to call him back to me, but you have take him into custody yourself, LMAO!!


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Yea...you can charge him with Mopery, Dopery, Skulduggery and Public Ugly as well. (Maybe not Public Ugly..I hear he's real handsome!!):lol:


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## Chris Duhon (May 24, 2007)

Yeah, my boy is a good looking dude, thats why we were good together, LOL! Here's a pick of him, thats still on a website. scroll down and look for Vito under the sold dogs

http://www.usk9.com/dogsforsale.html


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## Chad Byerly (Jun 24, 2008)

If someone already linked to this, sorry for repeating. The method I'm familiar with which seems to be what was talked about at the beginning of this thread can be read here:

http://www.policek9.com/html/selfout.html


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## Chad Byerly (Jun 24, 2008)

Ooops. I just read Matthew Grubb linked to Eden's article earlier...


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