# low self-preservation instinct



## ISH MOORE (Apr 29, 2009)

I'm referring to to a dog that reacts indifferently or impassively in the face of danger. Not Procreation. 

I know you can't train instincts into a dog, but is there any way you can enhance the dog to preform better on the field. 

in Schutzhund they call it dullness.


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## Anna Kasho (Jan 16, 2008)

Never heard of it described that way. When you say low self preservation instinct, the first image that springs to mind is my mal bailing off the roof to get his ball... :lol: 

Dull dog? As in, no prey drive, no defense?


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## ISH MOORE (Apr 29, 2009)

it has nothing to do with prey drive. the dog has very good prey drive. this dog is fearless not courageous. Most people think these are the same two things.

low self-preservation is where a dog will act indifferently or impassively in the face of danger because it does not recognize the danger.


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## Ted Efthymiadis (Apr 3, 2009)

ISH MOORE said:


> it has nothing to do with prey drive. the dog has very good prey drive. this dog is fearless not courageous. Most people think these are the same two things.
> 
> low self-preservation is where a dog will act indifferently or impassively in the face of danger because it does not recognize the danger.


Some dogs get locked in prey if defense is never worked, I have heard of a few dogs that are like this, and I own one. He's so confident in prey, that he doesn't even conceive a threat could be taking place even when a helper tries to scare the piss out of him to make him bite. He just looks at the helper like, are you are idiot?

I'm not sure if this is what you are talking about, but if it is, I assume the dog just doesn't associate bitwork with stress, rather is associates bitework with preybites, and good times with people he can trust.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Well, is the helper REALLY a danger? Is it his training helper? What do you want the dog to do and how would fear improve his performance? This is not to start any type of venue war but I have been trying to figure out what can schutzhund be a test for as far as natural traits in a dog. Sure, its drive, trainability, some level of confidence but does it really have anything to do with real danger? Again, just asking.

Terrasita


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## Kristina Senter (Apr 4, 2006)

I think I have seen a few examples of what you are referring to. I consider it a very high defensive threshhold. 
I've seen a couple of approaches...foremost, to intentionally inflict stress (pain) to the dog so that they are aware that there is a dangerous element to the person in front of them. I've seen it done with several police dogs with good success (dogs that were oblivious that they posessed any power beyond prey drive and would readily turn their backs to decoys, look to the handler for help, etc). Most helper's can't do this without shutting the dog down, however and ruining it forever. Me personally, I'm not into ruining dogs because they're not what I want them to be genetically. A sport dog really has no need/reason to believe that the helper presents any type of danger or stress. Overall, I can't see how it would improve the dogs performace in the first place?


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

ISH MOORE said:


> I'm referring to to a dog that reacts indifferently or impassively in the face of danger. Not Procreation.
> 
> I know you can't train instincts into a dog, but is there any way you can enhance the dog to preform better on the field.
> 
> in Schutzhund they call it dullness.


I am so completely confused. The only way I have heard "self-preservation instinct" is referring to 

1. A dog that eats non-food items, nearly killing itself
2. A dog that tried to run through a deck railing, injuring both shoulders
3. A two- year old trying to stick things into outlets.

I'm lost. :lol:


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

So what is it you are trying to figure out ?? I agree that it is a high defense threshold, but how did you figure the courage part ??

To even begin to help, there has to be a lot more information.


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

I would consider the apbt a dog with low self preservation instict that instict that in the face of a huge rival or total war the dog will not stop alot of good hunting dogs and terriers seem to have it as well.

Im sure when you see working military dogs or law enforcement dogs who die in the heat of apprehending a bad guy with stab or gunshot wounds who wont stop or let go that certainly is displaying that trait but trying to bring it out is probably something very hard to do if not impossible the dog either has it or he doesnt and you will not usually see it till its to late or you have a good eye for a dog the same goes for hunting dogs


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

brad robert said:


> Im sure when you see working military dogs or law enforcement dogs who die in the heat of apprehending a bad guy with stab or gunshot wounds who wont stop or let go that certainly is displaying that trait but trying to bring it out is probably something very hard to do if not impossible the dog either has it or he doesnt


I've never heard the term "self-preservation instinct" before. I agree a dog either has the drive to do those things mentioned above or it doesn't. If it doesn't it's simply removed from the program. By definition though, that's what I refer to as fight drive. Kind of a; when you open the can, you get it all, sort of thing. Defense to me is a term I leave to the sport folk. 

DFrost


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## Eros Kopliku (Jan 30, 2008)

ISH MOORE said:


> it has nothing to do with prey drive. the dog has very good prey drive. this dog is fearless not courageous. Most people think these are the same two things.
> 
> low self-preservation is where a dog will act indifferently or impassively in the face of danger because it does not recognize the danger.


In _Schutzhund: Theory and Training Methods_, Barwig and Hilliard explain this difference between oblivion to fear and courage.


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

I think youre right david it probably is more along the lines of fight drive but i have heard bulldog people talk of there dogs low levels of self preservation but not so much calling it a "instinct" just tough as hell.

Can someone expand on what hilliard wrote in his book because that seems to make sense if a dog cant recognize something weather its a threat or whatever it cant react to it.I would guess this is genetics through selective breeding.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Another thought, ignoring a threat can also be "whistling in the dark". Fear, but without the usual reaction. A kind of; if I ignore it, it will go away. If it gets closer or more threatening, then I'll react differently.

DFrost


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

So without all the information we need, my guess is this dog has high thresholds and avoidance issues when pressed in the work.

Sounds like a bulldog. What part of this breed was EVER supposed to bite man again ??? #-o How many have been shot over the years to make SURE the breed was man safe ???


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## greg wilson (Mar 17, 2009)

Perception of threat is usually decreased when we increase the dog's drive to bite a man, and/or other animals. We make use of this in agitation to raise the confidence level of a dog that wouldn't otherwise be able to confront a challenge from a man at a certain point in his development. The drive to bite becomes high and the dog no longer perceives threat from the man. If you're training a protection dog this shouldn't be overdone (especially with some breeds who are genetically predisposed) otherwise the dog will get locked in prey. You have to put defense back into the training to attain the right balance because the dog must perceive the man as dangerous prey. This is the only way the dog will gain the edge that comes from knowing that he needs to finish off his opponent not just bite and hang on. Putting defense into a dog that went too far into prey due to the wrong approach in agitation or genetics can be tricky sometimes and is where the most talented and experienced agitators are required.

Threat awareness with such a dog can be achieved by playing around with the factors that make up agitation. Everything is done civil, no protective gear or any gear associated with agitation ie. stick, whip. Muzzle can be a useful tool if the dog is conditioned so as not perceive it as part of training. Different locations and decoys, more than one decoy. Different atmosphere ie. secluded area and night time. Behind a fence or another barrier is useful. Doing a session on the dog's territory ie. kennel, house or car. However with dogs who have a tendency to be in prey this only works once LOL You constantly have to change situations to the point you have to wonder if it's worth it. The best situation that will bring out the edge in a strong dog that is hard to bring out defensively is a real situation. The energy of such a situation is very hard to duplicate even with very good teamwork between a talented decoy and handler. But, just because a strong dog is slow to show a deadly serious edge in agitation doesn't mean he will not rise to the occasion when he's really needed. Bear in mind I'm not talking about a dog here that's simply locked in prey. I'm talking about a dog that has a lot of balls but is just hard to bring out in defense. Of course it's understandable that most people require a sharper dog as there's a lot of value is in the deterrent factor.

Some dog breeds are prone to threat quickly becoming irrelevant to them when in drive. Those dogs are simply genetically predisposed to get locked in a type of prey when it comes to certain kinds of action. They are even genetically predisposed as to the kind of prey animal for which they will develop the strongest drive. This is taken to the ultimate extreme with the fighting APBT. Here's an example of a small pup discovering the drive http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=54518796 By contrast there are dogs who's drive to bite a man can be increased but they remain sensitive to threat and can be shut down if a little too much pressure is put on them.

Some dogs even when in high in drive are still clear headed and capable of problem solving. This comes with experience and translates into fighting strategy in the case of the fighting APBT. It is a clear indication that the dog senses threat and adapts, but doesn't show the classic signs of defensive behavior. By contrast a simple example of a dog whose prey drive is stronger than his self preservation, but who is not thinking clearly, is the dog that would chase a moving vehicle to bite at the tires disregarding the possibility of getting injured in the process. Or a as previously mentioned a dog that will jump off a high place chasing a ball. Worse yet the dog that survives such an experience many times doesn't learn from it. The correction happens too late as the dog is maxed out in drive.


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