# Mal is afraid to heel



## Eric Hamilton (Jan 20, 2015)

Hi, everyone. I have a dual purpose narc/patrol Belgian Malinois. We went through the Illinois State Police K9 Academy a little over a year ago and have been on patrol since. I had a Dutchie that hated the world and was untrainable when I first started. I took him back to VLK and got Dano. We were three weeks behind in a 10 week course when I got him. The master trainer wasn't there on Fridays so troops that helped with training were in charge. This particular Friday was Dano's third day of the school and these guys were intending to be helpful and get him caught up on his obedience. They had me doing dynamic downs. I didn't know any better and went along with it. The dog almost shut down.

Since then, I have tried every trick in the book to get him to heel. He also won't go from a down to a sit. Ever. I've used the choke chain and pinch collar with soft and hard corrections, toy and food rewards, and a ton of praise and absolutely still can't get him to heel. He will circle me and come to my side but leans way out and doesn't want to be right by my side. I've tried inching my way to him and softly pulling him to me and even getting down and physically moving him to me by picking him up. He will not stay in a heel as we walk. He wants to pull ahead of me, even with a pinch on.

I'm desperate to fix these problems. I train with military working dog handlers and even the more experienced ones don't know how to fix him. Any help is greatly appreciated.


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## Jeremy White (Sep 23, 2016)

I'm sorry I can't help, but have you considered contacting VLK? They might be able to assist


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

welcome back 

really hard to help without seeing the problem (you/K9 together)
but for what it's worth, i've worked with a lot mwd handlers, so try and remember they are always 'handlers' but rarely 'trainers' 

after re-reading your earlier posts this part made me think it might be part of the problem 
....when you said : "I'm not a patient person. If I want something, I want it like yesterday"
...meaning you might need to back up farther than you think you need to back up rather than use a different tool ?

there's always a reason a handler can't keep a dog close to them, but i'd be wasting time making a list of things to try
- if he really is "afraid", you got big time problems that will spill over into other areas for sure, so i'd be focussed on that issue specifically

if you want help you'll probably eventually need to shoot some raw video of you working with him for a few minutes of warm up and then try to demo the problem and how you're working on it as of now and post to a trainer you respect and will listen to. or spend a few bucks on one with a track record

....or maybe you'll get lucky and someone will toss a tip you can copy that works like a charm 

good luck !


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

sorry, but probably shoulda included that i don't believe laying on OB if there is a fear issue involved will solve the problem even if you get compliance with the OB
....that's why i posted about making the fear issue a priority, especially for any kind of patrol work since your K9 is dual purpose

of course others don't agree with my opinion and feel the opposite is true ....different strokes, etc //LOL//


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

There are soooo many ways to fix this problem, but it is not fixable in one or two training sessions. I also agree with Rick that MWD folks are handlers and rarely trainers. That said, you can heel him next to a wall or fence. If he tries to move to your other side then wrap the lead around your left leg which basically gives him about one foot of lead and he'll be forced to stay in position. Since the usual rewards don't seem to work you'll have to begin with imposing your will (physically) to keep him in position. Do not get impatient. Do not hammer him. You'll probably have to wait him out to get back into position on his own and when he does you reward with high value item. Do not move until he's in position. If he surges forward, you stop. Rinse and repeat. I'd have him on the dead ring of the pinch to start. Go to the live ring if you have to. Reward him early (just a few steps at first) then stretch it out, then variable rewards.

Just an idea for a starting point without seeing the actual problem. I'm sure someone else will chime in as well.


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Not seeing the dog but just reading your post, I come away with 2 impressions. One is that this particular Mal is very sensitive. I'm wondering if your pressure/training approach initially was to hard and aggressive - coming off your untrainable dutchie - and the help trying to catch the dog up on his OB to fast and to strong-armed. This is borne out by your statement that the dog basically shut down. It was either to much, to fast, or to strong.

And second, the dog leaning away from you says you are part of his problem. Like those marriage pics where everyone says its a happy couple but the wife or hubby is leaning away from the other so the body language says there is trouble in paradise. 

I think this is a handler sensitive Mal that has some real negative associations built up to you. Because you are also impatient, you are compounding the problem by not giving enough time for the dog to develop some trust back on you because he remembers all those dynamic downs. So in essence, he got the crappy end of the training stick and it stuck with him. If this was my dog, I would cycle everything back to zero. Take a break from the problem, rebuilt the relationship, and then begin again with the basics. 

I would also speak with VLK about it. You may have to return him for a different dog or if you can learn to ease up, this may be the best dog you ever had.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

All good answers above, in particular about this being a handler sensitive dog and a stressed out dog isn't always able to work through a training issue if not handled properly. 

Maybe not a good match between the two of your but that's hard to say just from a post here.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

re : "They had me doing dynamic downs. I didn't know any better and went along with it. The dog almost shut down."
-- can you explain this in more detail ? my mental image is lacking 

re : "He also won't go from a down to a sit"
-- ditto. what DOES he do from the down ? 
example : if he won't pop up into a sit; not a prob. let him take a couple steps fwd and THEN sit him. seems like that could be an easy start to shape what you want
-- i doubt that he crawls and stay in a down when he moves and i doubt that he holds the down when move behind him, etc., but hard to get the mental image of the prob other than he doesn't repond to a verbal or physical prompt

re : the heeling...
sometimes it matters WHEN you do the reps for heeling. at what part of the training routine do you work on heeling ?
- before bite work when he's hyped ? when there are lots of other dogs working in the area; or solo ?
- if he's constantly surging; quick left turns thru his neck/shoulders might help .. or maybe get you tagged //LOL//

does the dog live with you and how much off duty time do you spend with it ?

yeah...more Q's than answers  sorry
...just can't visualise how much the K9 wants to work with you vice just work


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Going from a down to a sit

What "I" do is one of two things depending on the dog.

IF the dog has strong character then I may step into it and tap it's front feet with my foot.

When it sits up I then reward and praise it.

The other method is to lure it up with a treat or tug. When it sits up I reward and praise it.

The problem here is our collective training methods may not mesh with your trainer's and that can create issues with your trainer.

I concur with Rick on getting something on video so we get a better idea of what's going on.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

I read your post and skipped to this point, I want to see you working with your dog to show your dog exhibiting some of these behaviors. Separately, I'd like to see what he's like doing absolutely nothing but being in your presence. Can you do that?


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

BTW, how do you define untrainable? I mean, what does that look like to you?

Also, what is a dynamic down? A down in motion?

I've got to be missing something. I've read this three times now. Either the dog is unfit for the work or the solution is less complex than believed to be. Worst case scenario there's something anatomical impeding resolution (unlikely). 

Assuming he is fit (no nerve issues), I bet this could be fixed in 3 days, a week at most. I'd bet my Dutch on it. I'm not known around here for not keeping my word so let's see what you have going on there.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

this doesn't exactly speak highly of VLK either .... just sayin 

hope they are better in person than they are on TV ... a few of their shows were shown over here and i was underwhelmed
- hopefully it was just the editing for TV viewers

i'm also curious about the dynamic down drills ... 
problem with online threads is you can only draw mental pics from written words :-(


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

what i've read appears to (possibly) be an example (to some degree) of a lack of trust.

the degree isn't clear and my opinion probably won't be agreed with either 

but i'll ramble a bit more ...

the more "worst case" it is, the longer it will take to fix, but might be fixed faster if the handler looks at it this way and works on trust building rather than from an OB techniques p.o.v.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

no response yet, 
but if it really IS fear based, i'd wash the dog asap and complain that it was ever offered as a dual purpose psd candidate. THAT is the responsibility of the vendor to screen in advance even if the vendor tries to put the monkey (blame) on the handler's back

hope the OP sticks around 
has the potential to be an interesting thread


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

The problem with the "master trainer" (Hate that title) being gone and the "troops" stepping in to help is, most times, a bad idea. As previously stated, the dog may be handler soft or truly unsuitable for the job. You may have inadvertantly compromised your bond when "the troops" helped you. Without seeing a video we can't truly assess your problem. What you describe may be totally different from what is really going on.


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## Eric Hamilton (Jan 20, 2015)

I appreciate all of the input. I'll try to reply and clarify the issue tonight after I get off work.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Howard Knauf said:


> The problem with the "master trainer" (Hate that title) being gone and the "troops" stepping in to help is, most times, a bad idea. As previously stated, the dog may be handler soft or truly unsuitable for the job. You may have inadvertantly compromised your bond when "the troops" helped you. Without seeing a video we can't truly assess your problem. What you describe may be totally different from what is really going on.


Howard, given your experience, is there a training/handling protocol that is in place to well, I don't know any other way to say this but basically protect the investment (dog) from misuse/damage, etc? Maybe that sounds a little out there but most of us don't want other people subjecting us or our dogs to things that could potentially send them to a place of no return.

Understood, that there are some dogs impervious to inept handling or harmful treatment (not suggesting that's what happened here) but largely most dogs are not. Surely, the brokers cannot be the ones to solely shoulder the burden should a dog "wash out" and need to be returned because of something that happened after the fact. That said, I'd certainly hope that no one would ever pair one up with a dog unfit for the job. 

Maybe there's more support/structure within this process than I realize. But if not, then I must ask why not. Equipment issues and control is important so where do the dogs fit into this?


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Nicole Stark said:


> Howard, given your experience, is there a training/handling protocol that is in place to well, I don't know any other way to say this but basically protect the investment (dog) from misuse/damage, etc? Maybe that sounds a little out there but most of us don't want other people subjecting us or our dogs to things that could potentially send them to a place of no return.
> 
> Understood, that there are some dogs impervious to inept handling or harmful treatment (not suggesting that's what happened here) but largely most dogs are not. Surely, the brokers cannot be the ones to solely shoulder the burden should a dog "wash out" and need to be returned because of something that happened after the fact. That said, I'd certainly hope that no one would ever pair one up with a dog unfit for the job.
> 
> Maybe there's more support/structure within this process than I realize. But if not, then I must ask why not. Equipment issues and control is important so where do the dogs fit into this?



Here's the problem....training dogs is very subjective. This is why we, nor any other agency can create an SOP and put it on paper when an agency tries to get accredited. Because there is an infinate number of variables, there's only one thing that two trainers can agree on, and that's what the third trainer is doing wrong. The agency puts 100% faith in the "professionals" when it comes to sourcing and training a working dog. Now, in the K9 circle there are those that know the score and who they can really trust. When it comes to the vendor shouldering the burden of a washout....well, that's why they give a guarantee (usually 1 year on health, and 2 years on performance...YMMV).


Ref to unsuitable dogs being sold to police/military...it happens. More than you think. I can't tell you how many dogs I've tested that were for sale but shouldn't be police dogs. This is why it's imperative that the person in charge of the K9 unit know what the hell they are doing...or can trust someone who is knowledgeable and trustworthy.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

Tx for posting that Howard.

a lot of people think that just because a K9 is a PSD or MWD it is the best of the best. reality is different; some are much better than others and the great ones stand out. some don't work as long as we think they should. sometimes a change in handlers solves an issue.
- think i already related this before, but one of the best dogs we had was a very smallish GSD. our two Japanese handlers have small dutch shepherds. big is not always better....fire in the gut is 

i don't see the sourcing side for mwd's, but i can see how it's hard for a PSD vendor to build up credibility in the LE world. unfortunately in our new world, demand outstripped supply and that will only mean a reduction in quality ... too easy to breed more and get less :-(

but i'm a dreamer ... i still hold vendors to the same standard as a breeder and that is VERY high. i'm a strong believer that they should be the one to evaluate the potential for PSD work even tho the individual department or agency needs to know what they are getting before they buy

- at least in LE you will find out if the dog WILL perform on the street when it needs to. 
- not as much in the MWD world (for patrol work). very few get tested for real 

but what really scares me are the PPD vendors.
- the average PPD will NEVER be tested. training can be done with smoke and mirrors and from looking websites ... for people who think the more it costs the better it must be :-(((((

not as much in the MWD world (patrol work). very few get tested for real


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Well said Howard. 

When someone asks me to help them pick out a puppy or dog (I don't do LEO K9s) I will always tell them this is what "I" see in the pup or dog.

I know what I could do with what I like in a dog or pup but that, more often then not, will have nothing to do with how that dog or pup will be raised outside my control.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

green dogs (not pups) can and should be screened and evalauted properly before being sold to either LE or DOD/FED buyers and i don't think it's rocket science since in these cases the specific end product should be CRYSTAL CLEAR to both parties

buyers need to know what they are getting and "buyers should be aware" is germane.

with that said, not all purchases will go as planned. i still say the vendor has the primary responsibility and they won't stay in business long if they sell very many dogs who wash out ... no matter what the reasons are or who is responsible

further off topic and has nothing to do with a dog afraid to heel //LOL//

hope the OP gets us back on topic and clears things up when he gets a chance
.....i'm 'forecasting' he doesn't think the dog has nerve issues and is just too amped to pay attention and stay at his hip....sure hope it's nothing more serious than that


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Good post, Howard. The other issue is matching a dog to a handler. An overbearing handler can create as many problems with a good dog as a weak handler can if matched with the wrong personality of dog. There's the thought of "Oh, you are a dog handler...... here's your dog" and expecting the relationship to work is overly ambitious. Yes, in a perfect world that's how folks think it should work but rarely does. Just like there are good trainers, there are bad ones. The same thing for dog handlers. 

So going back to the VLK dog, one thing I was wondering is who matched this dog to this guy? Who made the selection? Because if the first was to much, did they select one that was much less in hopes it would work out?


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

When I had my K9 import business I spent a week with my main source from Romania. I made sure that he knew exactly what I wanted. Before each dog was shipped over here I had my guy send lots and lots of video of the subject dog being put through the paces. This guy was the 2013 Mondio Ring champion decoy. Now, being a high ranking decoy he knew how to turn a dog on but that's not what I wanted from him.I asked him to do certain things to ensure I was getting what I wanted. It was a great relationship and out of about 3 dozen dogs he sent over I only downgraded one from a PSD candidate to a PPD candidate. The difference in cost is substantial so it was good business to get it right the first time. Plus, I didn't sell a dog I wouldn't work myself! This was the reputation I wanted. Not all vendors are so anal when it comes to this business. I'm still LEO so I didn't risk missing a meal but this was supposed to be a retirement gig.

And yes, matching dog to handler is a recipe for success.


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

what is the handler's experience with dogs? is this your first dog (other than the dutchie)?

reason for asking: this may just not be the right fit (handler/dog). if this is your second or third dog (not including the dutchie) and you're a heavy handed handler, this clearly isn't the dog for you. if this is your first dog, you can adapt and use way more motivational methods than compulsive as it obviously isn't good for this dog. keep in mind, there are very few "always" and "nevers" in dog training. every dog is unique and has different needs. a lot of times a dog that is overly handler sensitive, will also be weak on a street bite when the suspect takes the fight to the dog. again, not always. some handler sensitivity is usually ok, but not to the extent that you're describing. 

getting back on track...for reference, i'm currently looking for my 4th K9. my first dog was on the softer end of the spectrum. my second dog a bit harder. my last dog required a heavy hand (especially when he was younger) and pretty much couldn't be shut down. i worked with him for 10 years. as such, my preference in my next dog is very little to no handler sensitivity. not that i couldn't learn to ease up, it would just be easier for me as i'm used to working a certain type of dog. for you, you need to decide if you are capable of being the handler this dog needs (and if it's worth it).


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

What is it you do that you are looking for a dog? I thought from the stick in your hand that you must be with British police or something. Color guard perhaps?


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

that would be a decoy from KNPV. i'm sure you've heard of it? well, perhaps not...


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Perhaps being facetious suits me


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

:-\":-\":-\":-\":-\":-\":-\":-\"


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

Bob
what does that emoji mean ?
seen it before
but this WDF list doesn't show me the defs....sometimes my typing gets morphed into an emoji even if i choose not to pick one :-((((

i only use a few 'cause i have no clue what some are supposed to express 
- can you sum it up in a word ? i might add it to my list 

for what it's worth, i don't think all emojis convey a clear message either so i'd rather stick to long winded sarcastic sentences if i am trying to get an emotion across, but stuff like WTF? work just as well for me


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Rick, emojis are my term for the smilies next to box you type in to make a post.

Also in that box is a [More].

click on that and it will bring up more smilies and a description of each. 

Sarcasm does have it's place but with the few active members we have now I'd hope we'd let things go a bit and just enjoy the posts.:grin: :wink:


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Rick they serve as symbolic mood/tone inferences and at times in place of humor. The one Bob used follows a few purposes. 

1. I agree and ain't saying nothing.
2. A tone of mischief as I told you so, or this is amusing "watch what happens next."
3. If you can't say anything good, then don't say anything at all.
4. Calling people on their bullshit or in response to something stated that is obvious. Like if the shoe fits… 

There's a few others but I just put up the post about the missing F/V and men presumably lost at sea or departed. I'm bushed and am going to crash.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

I havn't read all the posts but it sounds like you have a bonding issue. Sort that out first. Play engagement games etc.


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