# Info on KNPV



## Greg Leavitt (Aug 31, 2006)

This is for Selena or anyone with experience with KNPV dogs. I am looking for more information on KNPV in general. I would like websites with videos artices ect. I am trying to explain to a local police dept why a dog with its foundation in KNPV would be better than Schutzhund. They have a high failue rate out of the dogs that they buy. Also Selena I am wondering what is the price that KNPV dogs go for? Like basic foundation work all the way to fully titled. Thanks Greg


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

on my site are vids of biting excercises under onze hollanders> spike or Robbie.

An explanation of excercises incl scoresheet is on the Von Christels´s site : http://members.atlantic.net/~vcristel/index.htm
and Seven pines site http://www.sevenpineskennel.com/ I believe. Score sheets maybe outdated, maximum score on PH1 is 440 nowadays (PH2 455).

I only know dutch prices for green dogs or fully trained dogs. I know that´s less than what a K9 centre will charge. A good dutch broker -in my eyes- is K9 midden nederland: http://www.k9dogcentre.com/


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## Greg Leavitt (Aug 31, 2006)

now dutch prices are much different then what they would charge an American is that right? what are the dutch prices for like a ph 1 and ph2 dogs?


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Greg Leavitt said:


> now dutch prices are much different then what they would charge an American is that right? what are the dutch prices for like a ph 1 and ph2 dogs?


For a good PH1 dog (with high points) about 4500 euro. 
Green dogs or dogs with (a bit) foundation varies from 500-2000 euro, depending how good they show.

PH2 and Obj. are usually trialed if the dog stays with his handler (competion, breeding, companion/pet).


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## Greg Leavitt (Aug 31, 2006)

I see on your website that you dont ship pups whats the reason for this? Also do you know of any ph1 dogs available? I would love to get one.


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## Renee Utley (Feb 6, 2007)

Greg,are they buying these dogs fully trained or are they purchasing adults simply with sport titles and no further training. I have several KNPV trained Dutch Shepherds and just picked up two Mals at the airport yesterday. BUT,the dog still must be thoroughly evaluated for police work


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## Greg Leavitt (Aug 31, 2006)

Renee please email me with details, local deptments are looking for dogs with bitework, that can be evaled and trained further to do patrol work. They were told that sch dogs would be good and I have recently been explaining why dogs with a knpv or ring or for that matter most sports would be better than sch. I personally want a knpv german shepherd to compete and do other sport and demos for police with. Greg

[email protected]


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Greg Leavitt said:


> I see on your website that you dont ship pups whats the reason for this? Also do you know of any ph1 dogs available? I would love to get one.


At the moment no, most PH1 dogs who will be sold are available after the spring trials in may, summertrial in juli or falltrial in october.

And we don´t ship puppies ´cause we want buyers to see the puppies in their own enviroment, shipping is a heavy experience for a little pup. And if they really, really want a pup of us, they will take this effort to travel to us:wink:


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## Renee Utley (Feb 6, 2007)

Well, good luck my friend finding a GSD capable of KNPV. Very,very few can hack it  . Get a Mal or a Dutchie   
I sell fully trained police service dogs. Nice dogs are very high overseas now. We are competing with a herd of folks for these nice dogs. For that reason,I rarely sell dogs unless fully trained. The days of picking up a nice titled dog for a reasonable amount are over. That is why I am breeding Mals,Dutchies and Labs. We Americans have got to STOP being dependent on Europe for our dogs. The shipping is sky high too. pardon the pun
I will email you privately and give you some suggestions though for folks that I know who will.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

I would check out Koos Hassing's Tiekerhook Kennel in the Netherlands for a GSD suitable for KNPV.


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

susan tuck said:


> I would check out Koos Hassing's Tiekerhook Kennel in the Netherlands for a GSD suitable for KNPV.


No Tiekerhook dogs in KNPV as far as I know, most GSD´s competing in KNPV are from ´t Heuske kennel at this moment.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

I can only attest to the shortage of good dogs and the high prices when you do find one. Good granny grunt, it's getting ridiculous. Renee is absolutely correct about regardless of what title a dog may have, it still must be evaluated for police work. 

DFrost


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

Selena, Jento van 't Heukske's mother was a Tiekerhook bitch, he is a KNPV dog.


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

www.adlerhorst.com they are in southern california. they usually have a few PH1's in stock. they average about $7500 US. also vohne liche in indiana keeps PH1's.


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Tim Martens said:


> www.adlerhorst.com they are in southern california. they usually have a few PH1's in stock. they average about $7500 US. also vohne liche in indiana keeps PH1's.


For whatever its worth, I bought a dog from Vohne Liche a few years ago (Riot - the one in my avatar photo). I also know someone who deals with him on a regular basis. She finds him to be very fair and honest. IME - Ken is a nice guy to do business with. At the time I bought Riot, Ken's prices were comparable to other well-known importers/brokers.


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## steve gossmeyer (Jan 9, 2007)

ken does have some nic dogs one of the police k9s i am working with is from him. the only thing i would say is that the department that has this dog looked at like 150 dogs before they got him.


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## steve gossmeyer (Jan 9, 2007)

my only thing greg and not to be an ass but how are you gonna tell a police department about how one dog sport is better than the other if you know nothing about it. im not tryin to bust on anyone. but i would do some research first.


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## Greg Leavitt (Aug 31, 2006)

well the chief is my uncle and it was while we were watching boxing drinking beer in my living room. pretty casual, i basically thru it out there and he said well get me more info.


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## steve gossmeyer (Jan 9, 2007)

ah ok i was just curious.


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

Konnie Hein said:


> Tim Martens said:
> 
> 
> > www.adlerhorst.com they are in southern california. they usually have a few PH1's in stock. they average about $7500 US. also vohne liche in indiana keeps PH1's.
> ...


gregg tawney bought all of the dogs on his department from vohne liche and i believe he had a pleasant experience (gregg did not get his dog from them and one dog came from another department, so i guess that means he bought 4 or 5 there). i know he got some nice dogs. he also said they did have a VERY large selection (100+ although not all PH1's of course)...


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## Al Curbow (Mar 27, 2006)

Knpv is just a sport like Asr or ring or Sch. Sport is sport. An awesome dog can do any sport OR job you train it in, so don't fall into that nonsense of one sport over another, they're what you make of it.


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Tim Martens said:


> he also said they did have a VERY large selection (100+ although not all PH1's of course)...


Their kennel is huge. And, they get new dogs all the time so the odds of finding what you need are pretty good. At the time I bought my dog, he also offered a great guarantee that couldn't be matched by anybody else I looked at.

I also think they are really good to their dogs. That matters to me. I won't cater to a business that treats their dogs like dirt. 

In addition to the pointy-eared types, they also sell single purpose detection dogs (both green and trained) of the retriever variety.

http://www.vohneliche.com/main.htm

Just out of curiousity, I wonder what they charge these days for a green single-purpose detection prospect. If anybody knows, please PM me.


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## Robert Blok (Jul 26, 2006)

Konnie Hein said:


> For whatever its worth, I bought a dog from Vohne Liche a few years ago (Riot - the one in my avatar photo). I also know someone who deals with him on a regular basis. She finds him to be very fair and honest. IME - Ken is a nice guy to do business with. At the time I bought Riot, Ken's prices were comparable to other well-known importers/brokers.


Konnie I second that, Ken is used for the purchase of dogs for our Sheriffs K9 Departments and has been excellent to deal with and delivered as promised.
Also good to use him for workshops.

Robert


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## Phil Dodson (Apr 4, 2006)

I have a good friend a new trainer for a local PD going through his trainers course as I write this. He is ecstatic over the dog he is working and calls me each day advising the outstanding quality of the prospects on site!


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## Gregg Tawney (Apr 4, 2006)

I went to Von Liche for three days and tested about 40 dogs. We wound up with four good ones. We had a short time to get five dogs and found that they had a pretty big selection. They were very accomadating and let us take the dogs off site for testing. 

But with any broker, it is buyer beware. They are in the business of making money and the bottom line is if you dont know what your are looking at then they are not going to tell you NOT to buy a particular dog. 

I have also purchased dogs from Adlerhorst in Southern California. Dave Reaver is also a good broker and has a gaurantee that if you want to return the dog within the first year for any reason he will give you a replacement. As a matter of fact the dog we selected was a return from another department after four months of training because of "handler aggression". He had bitten the handler a few times and they were not willing to deal with it. He is a ph1 and he went to one of our experienced handlers and they are doing very well together. The thing I liked about Reaver was that he was very upfront that the dog had been returned and why. He gave us the number of the old handler so we could talk to him personally. He did not try to hide the dogs history like I think many brokers would do in a similar situation. 

I agree with the fact that there are good dogs in all sports but for police work, I still prefer to buy dogs from the KNPV program if possible. I have found that the sport is closer related to actual police work then most other sports. The awsome entries on the attacks are a nice bonus too!


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## Gregg Tawney (Apr 4, 2006)

Konnie - 

The prices last April were as follows:

1- Titled dog (ph1) was about $7800
2 -Dogs with some bitework were $5000 to $6000. These dogs usually have some bitework and an understanding of some obedience. 

They had some dogs that they were training. It think for a dog that was trained dual purpose was something like $9500 or so. I think that was a ph1 that was also started in narcotics. 

Depending on the training the prices ranged a bit but these were the ball park prices.


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## Doug Wendling (Apr 1, 2006)

Here is a small breeder, but successful with the GSD's in KNPV.
http://www.k9gardefense.com/german.html

Doug


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Have you gotten a dog from them???


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## Doug Wendling (Apr 1, 2006)

Jeff
Who are you asking? If it is me, yes I have.

Doug


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Yes, Mr. non specific strikes again. I was just curious as to how you liked them and so on. Thanks!


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

i would assume he likes them since he posted the link here and because the website lists him as their american contact.....


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Jesus Tim, they stick you on traffic detail or something? : P


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## Greg Leavitt (Aug 31, 2006)

I agree with Gregg T the dogs with a KNPV background have done better than sch dogs I have seen, in fact one of the best dual purpose dogs I have ever seen was a knpv dog out of the tiekerhook lines.


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Tim Martens said:


> i would assume he likes them since he posted the link here and because the website lists him as their american contact.....


hahahahah you could be dutch, did ya know that?

But...Doug can you name me dogs of Jan´s line who earned a KNPV certificate, ´cause I don´t know any.


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## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

I don't think it makes any difference at all what sport a dog has a background in. I don't think it makes any difference what vendor he comes from. The only thing that's important is how he performs when he's tested. 

http://www.uwsp.edu/psych/dog/LA/castle1.htm


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## Scott Dunmore (May 5, 2006)

Lou,
That seems like a very demanding test. What % of decent level sport dogs do you think would pass? Also, I would say a good few PSD that I've seen would struggle with some sections of it.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

<<<The only thing that's important is how he performs when he's tested.>>>

And all God's dog trainers say Amen.

Papers are pretty, performance is what counts.

DFrost


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

lou and david,

i don't think anyone in this thread is advocating the plugging in of a titled dog into a PSD program simply because of the title. ALL dogs regardless of PH1, SchH1, FR1, etc, should be tested by the PD's trainer for suitability. again, i don't think anyone is saying anything different. 

now let's look at some other points. first, i think what the gregs were saying is that when starting with a dog in a new handler course, the PH1's are ahead of the curve compared to SchH dogs. the PH1 routine is much closer to the PSD training they will receive than the ScH1 routine is. one aspect of this that gets overlooked because it's probably not that big of a deal is the swim in the PH1 routine. having gone to several water training seminars, i have seen quite a few SchH dogs want NOTHING to do with the water. by the end of the seminar, most were able to gain SOME comfort, but one dog in particular that i remember still was majorly high stepping in the water. overall, i would say there is less "re-training" needed or breaking their sport routine in a PH1 versus a SchH1.

so should we only be getting green dogs? since we get our dogs from holland, i would say, let's take a look at the dutch. how many of these diamonds in the rough that would pass lou's test, would wind up in a K9 center, having been overlooked by some of the best sport trainers in the world? not many i would think. i would think that most of these dogs would have been identified and already working in a sport. 

i have said that with my dog (IPO1), i wish that i could have gotten him without that title or with a PH1 title. it was nice that i didn't have to do a whole lot to get his obedience pretty crisp and he had some idea how to track/trail, but other than that, the title was pretty worthless to me. his sleeve fixation has been a constant battle. while suit fixation can happen, from what i've seen, it is much easier to transfer that fixation to the man than a sleeve fixation is...


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Tim, I don't disagree. My comment about "papers" was not derogatory towards those that have papers. In the same context, papers don't make a dog. As for wanting a dog that has ob before you start training, that's all well and good. I'll take trained dogs, if I can find them in patrol or detection work. That's not always possible. The reality is, sometimes you have to pick dogs from those that are available, with no prior training. I'm not going to say a vendor in the good ole U.S. of A would misrepresent a dog, but I'll still test something before I buy it, regardless of how much or how little training a dog may have been. In many programs, with law enforcement as you are well aware, handlers take the dog that is given them. The buck stops at my desk however, when the dogs don't work, or aren't worth the money that's paid. As you may have noticed, the price of dogs is a tad more than it was just 5 years ago. No one, at least not in my area, has an unlimited budget nor do they have unlimited training time. We do what we can, with what we get, from what is available. That's why, at least in my program, selection is absolutely critical.

DFrost


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

agreed....


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## Gregg Tawney (Apr 4, 2006)

Lou Castle said:


> I don't think it makes any difference at all what sport a dog has a background in. I don't think it makes any difference what vendor he comes from. The only thing that's important is how he performs when he's tested.
> 
> 
> Lou, I am assuming that you do more then a tie out. I used to do that test also.
> ...


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

What about Belgium ring dogs???


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## Gregg Tawney (Apr 4, 2006)

Jeff, 

Well. It may not be a fair critique because the Belgian Ring dogs that I have seen were super sporty and I had never tested one for police work. In Northern California, you typically dont see any Ring sport dogs that are doing police work. I have worked probably hundreds of police dogs but never one with a Belgian Ring background. I dont think I have worked enough of them to make an educated statement on that one........ 

What has been your experience there?


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

No real experience with BR dogs. I have not had a chance to work one. I always go back to what the dog is.

It is something that I would like to do someday. Unfortunately I have this dang ring revolution to deal with.

I am not sure how many BR dogs are here in the states to begin with.


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## Gregg Tawney (Apr 4, 2006)

I agree with you on "what the dog is" but I think if you look at different sports you find that some sports tolerate weaker dogs then some others. By doing this they repopulate their sport with offspring that perpetuates less then spectacular drive and courage.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

So the Sch GSD's are out of it completely with that statement. I have seen some completely useless dogs bred because they were point dogs.

At least in ring, this hasn't been the case till recently.


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## Gregg Tawney (Apr 4, 2006)

I would not say they are out of it......but it is a hell of a lot harder to find a good one nowadays......

I agree. The dog with the highest points at the end of the day does not equate to the best dog.......We see this in police dog trials all the time. The top point dog sometimes has just enough drive to hold on the bite throughout the trial, releases quickly and calls off clean because his drive is easily harnessed. Slow to the bite but completes everything with just enough enthusiasm. 

It is so refreshing when a good dog is also the high point dog for the day.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

If I just keep bitching enough, maybe we can raise the standards high enough.

I get sick of breeders selling trash as "beginners" dogs. Too bad they do not recognize the basic facts..........their stud dogs are weak trash.


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## Erik Berg (Apr 11, 2006)

Just curious, the many police/armydogs that US buys from Europe, are these dogs bought just because they have a IPO or KNPV-title, or are they evaluated in Europe for servicework, hopefully by an honest person, before they are send to US?


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Erik Berg said:


> Just curious, the many police/armydogs that US buys from Europe, are these dogs bought just because they have a IPO or KNPV-title, or are they evaluated in Europe for servicework, hopefully by an honest person, before they are send to US?


In truth, I would believe the military is getting what no one else wants, the police by spending a few more dollars may get just a step up from that. At one time, I can't speak for the military now, but they did have their own buyers over there, looking for specific behaviors. The buyers were instructors from the dog school.

DFrost


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

David Frost said:


> In truth, I would believe the military is getting what no one else wants, the police by spending a few more dollars may get just a step up from that.


In Holland usually the dogs are sold abroad if they are considered not good enough to be a working policedog overhere. The ones who probably will not earn their PH 1 ´cause their character isn´t good enough or with a lot of trainingsproblems.Or the ones with little points on the certificate. 

The ones who are considered here to be good dogs mostly only will be sold if the price is much more than the dutch will pay.


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

Erik Berg said:


> Just curious, the many police/armydogs that US buys from Europe, are these dogs bought just because they have a IPO or KNPV-title, or are they evaluated in Europe for servicework, hopefully by an honest person, before they are send to US?


generally, the way it works in my neck of the woods is that the importer evaluates the dogs at the k9 centers and takes back here what they like, title or no title. obviously a titled dog costs more. then when they get them back over here, the various police departments also evaluate what was brought back and the expense of the title is passed on to the police departments. the guy we go through is not a huge importer. he generally knows what we're looking for in a dog and we trust him, but he'll still bring a few dogs for us to look at.


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