# Focus 101 question



## shelle fenton (Sep 24, 2015)

I am training watch me. Using my trainers method:- dog in sit/start position, give command 'watch' dog takes a rapier fast look and looks away immediately. I am to mark the look, then reward by dropping the ball in my armpit for him. Great, keep practicing is the homework. And he's not getting it. the look is so dam fast! 

However, i have a behaviour similar to watch me, it goes like this.
Have the dog sit front, and i can do the housework, take out the bins, walk up to over him, come in close, back off at any angle, and the dog has 100% focus on watching me. He never looks away, anticipating any minute, i'll give him a command and release him. Same with down or stand position. 

I am having problems with being in sit start position to cue the behaviour. And wonder, is there something i can harness from example 2, that i can incorporate into eg.1 to help my dog get it.

(dog is not IPO trained, but 4 weeks into attending the club and training with me, house dog GSD, being used to teach me in IPO, whilst i await my pup.)


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Some dogs just aren't comfortable getting into a staring match with their owners. In the dog world it's a sign of a challenge. Try this...put a piece of hot dog in your mouth. Have him sit in front of you and let him smell another piece of hot dog in your right hand. Hold your fully outstretched hand out to the right and the dog will watch it. As soon as the dog looks at you with that WTF look, spit the hot dog in your mouth out to him. You should be able to time it right no matter how fast he is. Once he's figured out the game you can start changing your lure hand position but not until you've taught a verbal command for the exercise (watch me, look, focus etc....I use "focus").

Stretch the time out on the stare and lure position once the command is learned. Once he has it down you can mark with the word "Yes", then pay him with another reward. I think your dog is just confused by all this staring at him so you have to get it across to him that this isn't about domineering behavior...it's about a new exercise he needs to learn. Do it right and you'll have him watching you after just a few exercises.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Use what Howard has said above. 

"Load" the marker "yes" first.

You can sit in a chair, walk around, whatever is most comfortable for you and the dog. 

No matter when the dog looks at you say "yes" and give a reward.

This is nothing more then letting the dog know that your "yes" means reward. you don't need to add the "watch me" command until the dog understand the connection between the "yes" and the reward.

Once the dog truly understands this then teaching behaviors will start.

You may want to start with food rewards aka Howard because some dogs get to excited when they see a ball, tug, etc.

Rewarding with food also lets you keep things moving because you have to get the ball back.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

re: "I am training watch me. Using my trainers method:- dog in sit/start position, give command 'watch' dog takes a rapier fast look and looks away immediately. I am to mark the look, then reward by dropping the ball in my armpit for him. Great, keep practicing is the homework. And he's not getting it. the look is so dam fast! 

However, i have a behaviour similar to watch me, it goes like this.
Have the dog sit front, and i can do the housework, take out the bins, walk up to over him, come in close, back off at any angle, and the dog has 100% focus on watching me. He never looks away, anticipating any minute, i'll give him a command and release him. Same with down or stand position. 

I am having problems with being in sit start position to cue the behaviour. And wonder, is there something i can harness from example 2, that i can incorporate into eg.1 to help my dog get it.

(dog is not IPO trained, but 4 weeks into attending the club and training with me, house dog GSD, being used to teach me in IPO, whilst i await my pup.)

Shelle....
general observations :

1. if you were more descriptive or posted a vid it would be easier to analyze and compare the two situatiuons. 

2 one example gives a command followed by a reward; the second gives neither 
a) in the first example you state you give a command ‘watch’ … in the second, you don’t mention giving a command, but rather stated ‘have the dog sit front’. so i don’t know if this is a trained behavior or just something the dog “does” after you tell it to sit and it’s just waiting to get paid for doing it
b) in the first example you don’t state WHEN you reward, but imply that after a momentary look you drop the ball. if that is exactly what you are doing you should be happy becaue the dog WILL look … but you’re obviously not happy because you want a longer look 
- but you don’t discuss HOW you are training to get a longer duration of ‘look’. you can use markers for duration too, but you don’t mention using any, so i can’t assume your use of markers are the same as mine, etc (all marker training is not created equal)

3. you said the trainer wants you use a ball but you imply no ball is used at home ... why not, since you are using both examples to describe the 'look' behavior ? 

4. also, you might not be considering that looking at you in the house in a low distraction environment could be the reason the dog keeps looking at you longer vice only giving you a glance when you are in a higher distraction environment outdoors

5. you seem to be saying the first example is done at an IPO field, and I have to assume that ‘look’ is different, and requires the dog to be in a heel position next to you and hold its head up while it looks as opposed to simply watching you in your house from a sit position. most IPO trainers are trying to get a look AND a raised head at the same time while a dog is in a heel and that may be why you can’t get a longer duration. 

6. you also don’t mention whether you are also looking directly at the dog when you expect it to watch you during IPO training, but you clearly imply you are NOT looking at the dog when you are in the house (this discrepancy might be relevant to what Howard stated)

- are my assumptions off base ???
- do you want to learn different training techniques, or are you more focused on comparing the two examples you posted ???
- assuming you already discussed this with your trainer, what did they say when you described both situations and what was recommended ???


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## Larry Krohn (Nov 18, 2010)

shelle fenton said:


> I am training watch me. Using my trainers method:- dog in sit/start position, give command 'watch' dog takes a rapier fast look and looks away immediately. I am to mark the look, then reward by dropping the ball in my armpit for him. Great, keep practicing is the homework. And he's not getting it. the look is so dam fast!
> 
> However, i have a behaviour similar to watch me, it goes like this.
> Have the dog sit front, and i can do the housework, take out the bins, walk up to over him, come in close, back off at any angle, and the dog has 100% focus on watching me. He never looks away, anticipating any minute, i'll give him a command and release him. Same with down or stand position.
> ...


 Don't know if this will help but I teach look for the dog to look at me and watch it to look at another person or object. I use food to teach look and just mark eye contact

https://youtu.be/eVD67AvPNdU


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## Chip Blasiole (Jun 7, 2006)

I agree that you should use food. You need to use continuous reinforcement to teach the dog the behavior and you can't do that with a toy.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

without knowing the dog, i don't think anyone should categorically say "use xxxx" as a reward

for me, reward selection is determined based on many things and should be mixed up and shuffled ... combinations of verbal praise, treats or toys based on the complexity of the behavior being taught, motivation, environment, etc

- most people have forgotten how powerful verbal praise can be, and it's rarely mentioned anymore. for me, it is ALWAYS the reward i start with and never completely done away with even if i am using treats and toys

by the way...."continuous reinforcement" was mentioned ...
please explain more
was it meant as : feeding more than one treat in rapid succession to get duration ??
- if so, verbal praise can be used in a similar way


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

i should have described 'verbal praise' a little more

many people think they are using it but when i observe them they are not reading their dog, and just chatting with their dog with NO timing applied to the behavior being taught

- timing of ANY reward is ALWAYS critical and WAY too easy to forget when verbal praise (or verbal punishment) is being used
- we all tend to talk too much and too fast and when that happens verbals have less and less influence and the dog will start blowing it off as 'background noise' //LOL//


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## Chip Blasiole (Jun 7, 2006)

Continuous reinforcement is a schedule of reinforcement in which each performance is followed by the reinforcer. As long as the dog maintains eye contact, he get a small bite of good food. After the behavior is learned, you can go to intermittent reinforcement, which can involve food or a toy. Praise can be the marker. If a dog is very hungry and has strong food drive, food will be a much more effective reinforcer than praise.


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> Use what Howard has said above.
> 
> "Load" the marker "yes" first.
> 
> ...


 This is how I teach my dogs but then again, they don't have a problem looking me in the eyes. I suggested that the "Yes" be left out until the dog gets paid a few times due to her dog not giving her enough time to mark AND pay for the look. As you know, timing is everything and if she pays too late she can cause a problem. The physical reward can be omitted over time and other rewards ie: praise, toy etc can replace it. All good suggestions so far.


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## shelle fenton (Sep 24, 2015)

Thank you all for suggestions.

To clarify: my dog is what i call "marker trained". His marker is "yes" word. The reinforcement rate is continuous reinforcement. 
Prior to training, i charge my marker, no verbal cue, just when he looks, mark/reward/mark/reward etc etc. 

The look is fleeting, but its there. IF he is in start/sit position.

When i attended the club, and was demonstrating what progress/or lack of, i had made in 2 days, trainer advised what i knew, your dog is not eating on the field, too stimulating/distracting. Use a toy instead. 

And yes, this really slows it down, as i have to get the ball back off him, to drop it again as a reward. I use a 2nd ball to get 2 goes. But slow, and a lot slower than spitting food. And verbal praise. 

So as mentioned, if i hold the reward out and wait, the dog will look to me/mark/reward, not be looking at the food in my hand, or toy in my hand depending on what reinforcer i am using; food or toy. I use both. 

So again, i then added the verbal cue "watch me", he looks on hearing it. Its fleeting, but he's looking. 

My dog is not very food driven. I have to not feed for 24hrs to get the sort of interest other dogs get immediately. He's 8yrs, and never ever been motivated by food. When i was using food reward demo for trainer, his behaviour was typical. Eats first few times, then takes and spits, then doesnt take it at all. 
Simply put, food is not a reinforcer for "this" dog it seems. 

Over 8yrs, this has played out thus:
i stopped trying to use food, and moved to verbal praise mid exercise and jackpot rewards at end of training with toy/or when he's been extra good at something, moving onto intermittent reinforcement so he never knows when the reward is coming, just that it will come, after 1 rep, 2 or 8 reps. 
Ive never shaped speed or duration of a behaviour, other than stay command. 

Perhaps its my timing. And a video will show if this is/is not the case. I will try to upload a video. And will be asking trainer on Sunday at our meet up. 
As in a week, i have practiced this daily x 2 in evenings with him. And i really dont see any progress. Same fleeting look. 

So back to basics. I have success. He will look. 10/10 times.
How do i get him to keep looking at me from this position. 
I can get him to look at me non stop when he anticipates something is going to happen that he will enjoy. Look at me and hold the gaze for longer than a nano second is where i am at. 
I base that on:
a) if i hold food out/toy out at arms length, he looks to me, not the reward.
b) when i say "watch me" he looks at me straight away. 

So issue is, he immediately breaks eye contact, from this position of start only. Any other position, he'll gaze for ages at me, waiting for something to happen. I want a longer duration of gaze.


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

Lots of good advice, but I'll throw my two cents in. 

Start a little further up the chain, instead of at the end. 
You have the duration of the look from 'any other position', so begin there, and move yourself into the start position beside him. Will he keep looking? Mark and reward. If not, move as close to start position as you can while maintaining eye contact and reward that and build from there. 

Just a thought - have you inadvertently marked the quick look away, rather than the look, so he thinks that's the exercise?


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Good advice by Leslie. You have to break the chain so to speak. There are certain cues to your dog that he has learned over time that he gets to do certain exercises. If sitting in front of you is a cue to do something else then he will revert to that. Unfortunately, starting at a heel position, then moving to a finish position is something he will understand as a specific exercise and may never revert to watching you on command from a finish position. You'll be teaching him a whole new exercise that ENDS with you in the finish position but never STARTS with you there. It's definately worth a shot for sure though. Maybe I'm giving him too much credit. Try Leslie's advice first, then you may have to go with a negative reinforcer like the e-collar such as was posted in the video above. If you go with the e-collar you can remove it later but you have to get through the dog's mental roadblock first.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

1. load and use a marker for duration
*don't just give a 'no' and expect the dog to know what is correct alternative. repeat the command once, OR give them a simpler command you KNOW they know. 
** but be careful not too give too many 'no's or the 'no' will lose its power and you will become a nag and you will get blown off 
or
2. start with the basic routine for getting any dog to hold eye contact : hold the treat between your eyes. get the look. start to move the food away from centerline and when eyes follows the food, give it a NO. VERY quickly it will start holding the eye contact. apply this technique to other positions in different situations. 
.... if they want to eat, they will "get it" quickly 

or do both


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Shelle, I'll add that "continuous reinforcement" is also something that has to be weaned off of properly or the dog will be no steadier in holding a position then it would with a simple treat per marker. 

This would follow what Howard said about certain cues the dog looks for.

You have to also look for cues from the dog to know it's going to break.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

very interesting thread !

- it seems to be drawing out different interpretations of what "markers" mean and how they fit various training systems and philosophies.
- even the selection of rewards and options to use Ecollar, etc 

was discussing the same things yesterday with a customer who is teaching a guard position (dog between legs) and many of the same options were being brought up that have been brought up in this thread

what has your trainer been saying about the suggestions listed here ?


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

breaking a behavior into chains usually involves a behavior that involves movement. 
i don't see how a look involves that kind of movement. if you have taught a look the dog should give it whether it is moving or not, correct ?
it should just mean look until i give another command to NOT look, correct ?
getting into a start position and teaching the dog the look needs to be held even when one step is taken might be the next stage i would teach the duration of the look
- as in teaching a focused heel, IPO style

i have seen many dogs that will "look", but when they do, they STOP when they look

for some reason, i keep thinking this dog thinks a look is a static command and has not been taught that it needs to be held when moving
- .... of course without seeing the dog hard to say, so maybe i'm way off here 

what says the OP ????


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

CONTINUOUS rates of reinforcement 
or FIXED rates of reinforcement
?????
that's why i asked for clarification
i feel there is a difference

i do not agree that a dog has to be weaned off of continuous reinforcement to increase duration of behavior if the reinforcer is not a primary and communication to the animal is clear

on the other hand i DO agree if you reinforce any behavior on a fixed, 1:1 rate, you DO have to either "wean" or shift to a variable rate or random rate and not stick on a fixed rate

when using markers with marine mammals we adhered to precise preplanned reinforcement schedules and we used terms like reps and sets. i have always felt that this should be applied to dogs too
- it adds clarity and keeps it simple for the animal involved

and its very simple for humans to plan and execute this way once the “muscle memory” is there //LOL//


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Shelle,

Lets approach this from a different angle. You say the dog is IPO trained? You also say that the dog will watch you from the front position at home? It's when you are on the field that he blows you off, right? So the question is...what does he get to do on the field from a front position on the field that he is anticipating that prevents him from staying focused on you? It's obviously a distraction on the field that has to be overcome? If he does it at home he needs to do it under distraction. So the real problem is not that he needs to be taught the exercise, it's that he needs to be taught to focus under distraction. It's a whole nother animal.


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## shelle fenton (Sep 24, 2015)

ok, video is currently bening uploaded to my photobucket. Its taking ages, because i live in Australia, where internet speeds, are slower than underdeveloped countries. So hang in there you lucky americans with touch speed internet. 

Once you see what is occurring, that's when the suggestions become more meaningful.

I have to leave for work, and leave the video uploading to photobucket, its should finish uploading there in about 2hrs. So then i'll post the link to photobucket account.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

rick smith said:


> i should have described 'verbal praise' a little more
> 
> many people think they are using it but when i observe them they are not reading their dog, and just chatting with their dog with NO timing applied to the behavior being taught
> 
> ...



I agree with this. 

I have started using verbal praise and pats alot more these days, rather than food and toys


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Relative to the dog of course.

More then a calm "good" my younger GSD can't control his excitement when praised to much.

He's one of those dogs that would work for praise and a simple scratch behind the ear.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

re : "More then a calm "good" my younger GSD can't control his excitement when praised to much."
.....agreed !

my main point was that verbal praise and punishment sound easy ... on paper 

but i think this tool is often forgotten in our modern age of treats, toys, prongs chokers and Ecollars, and I see both types of verbals used improperly
...and used improperly both in timing and intensity, 
.... and you just gave a good example on the intensity side

I usually have to suggest that people try it first and not go straight to the other rewards, and then I have to explain that it is a tool in training 
...and, like any tool, it has to be applied with the right intensity and with proper timing
--- and that part doesn't come easy for a lot of people I work with 

the more I can stress using marker words, the less of a problem it becomes

or maybe it's just a pet owner problem ?


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## shelle fenton (Sep 24, 2015)

rick smith said:


> without knowing the dog, i don't think anyone should categorically say "use xxxx" as a reward
> 
> for me, reward selection is determined based on many things and should be mixed up and shuffled ... combinations of verbal praise, treats or toys based on the complexity of the behavior being taught, motivation, environment, etc
> 
> ...



Rick, ive just read this entire thread over again, and notice my error.
forget i used the term continuous reinforcement. 
I"ll describe what i mean, you can add the term and educate me as the correct term please.
I reward every occurance of the desired behaviour. So if the dog is doing 10 goes (reps?) at looking at me, it gets 10 food rewards.

When i phase continuous reinforcement, i generally, switch to random reinforcement schedule, that is random, unpredictable, but generally more likely i will pay, with verbal praise, than i wont averages.


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## shelle fenton (Sep 24, 2015)

leslie cassian said:


> Lots of good advice, but I'll throw my two cents in.
> 
> Start a little further up the chain, instead of at the end.
> You have the duration of the look from 'any other position', so begin there, and move yourself into the start position beside him. Will he keep looking? Mark and reward. If not, move as close to start position as you can while maintaining eye contact and reward that and build from there.
> ...



YES YES YES!
This is what i was searching for, a bridge. Will he keep looking, even when i arrive in start position? YES!
So i'll back up to the point where he is in sit position, i am out in front or behind, it doesnt matter, he's focused on me, walking toward and into the start position. All the while he is looking right at my face. He's 100% on this, even in distracting duck herds passing by during practice this morning. 

This is the sort of plan i desired, and advice i hoped was doable. And you seem to think it is. Can you expand on how i might break this down for him. n dumb it down for me a little please


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## shelle fenton (Sep 24, 2015)

Howard Knauf said:


> Shelle,
> 
> Lets approach this from a different angle. You say the dog is IPO trained? You also say that the dog will watch you from the front position at home? It's when you are on the field that he blows you off, right? So the question is...what does he get to do on the field from a front position on the field that he is anticipating that prevents him from staying focused on you? It's obviously a distraction on the field that has to be overcome? If he does it at home he needs to do it under distraction. So the real problem is not that he needs to be taught the exercise, it's that he needs to be taught to focus under distraction. It's a whole nother animal.


hi Howard, I dont say my dog is IPO trained. I say my 8yr old pet GSD house dog/best mate, is on his 5th attendance at a Schutzhund Training Club that i have joined. I am getting a belgium mal pup in april to do this training with, then my 8yr old can go back to house dog jobs again. 

What does he get to do on the field from a front position? nothing much, unless you call bite work front position. He's only been a few times, so i think your original belief that my dog was IPO trained, is what led to this question perhaps. 

I was interested in what you said about, its that he needs to be taught to focus under distraction. Its a whole other animal. Yes, this is where we are at, he so far, has not done anything, he doesnt do at home well.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

If the reward is of a high enough value then the properly marker trained dog shouldn't be looking away. He should be trying to burn a hole in your eyes with his eyes to get that reward. 

That includes bite work when the reward is the bite itself.

The club I belonged to didn't allow physical corrections of any kind.

To a high drive dog the loss of reward can be as serious to the dog as a correction.

With heeling it's a matter of taking just one step and reward the dog for attention. Build off of that one step.


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## shelle fenton (Sep 24, 2015)

Bob Scott said:


> If the reward is of a high enough value then the properly marker trained dog shouldn't be looking away. He should be trying to burn a hole in your eyes with his eyes to get that reward.
> 
> That includes bite work when the reward is the bite itself.
> 
> ...


Are you suggesting skipping the emphasis on the correct start, and moving that 1st step?


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

shelle fenton said:


> (dog is not IPO trained, but 4 weeks into attending the club and training with me, house dog GSD, being used to teach me in IPO, whilst i await my pup.)


 I misread your post apparently. Missed the word "not". My bad.

Try the advice given so far. If not successfull then we'll spitball some more and come up with another plan.


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## shelle fenton (Sep 24, 2015)

Australia's internet speed:
download 5 mbps
uplodad 0.6 mbps

Above is the reason ive been unsuccessful in uploading the video. 
Wonderful country, its just circa 1950's, in so many ways which is part of its charm, and challenge.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

shelle fenton said:


> Are you suggesting skipping the emphasis on the correct start, and moving that 1st step?



Not at all. That "correct start" is a big part of the foundation to heeling.

What I was saying is the value of the reward is one of the keys to marker training. 

The other important aspects of it are the same as any training. Timing, consistency, understanding the dog's mind just to mention a few.

Knowing your not using the reward as a bribe is huge in marker training just as unfair corrections are wrong in correction training.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

Shelle
re : "I"ll describe what i mean, you can add the term and educate me as the correct term please.
I reward every occurance of the desired behaviour. So if the dog is doing 10 goes (reps?) at looking at me, it gets 10 food rewards.

When i phase continuous reinforcement, i generally, switch to random reinforcement schedule, that is random, unpredictable, but generally more likely i will pay, with verbal praise, than i wont averages.”

i’ll expand a bit but really don’t want to get lost in the weeds regarding the use of rewards since i don’t think that is your primary concern with the dog you have been referring to
1. terms are not very important to me. the actual techniques used and the system they are applied with is all that matters to me. meaning, lots of people do tell me they use markers, but i still feel “markers” has become a very general term these days and they are applied in LOTS of different ways 
2. “bribes” have been mentioned, and always gets mentioned when treats are used as rewards, but that word too is also hard to describe without seeing it happen, so glad you are still working on getting some vid posted. 

- regarding the way you described how you reward, pay, or reinforce, etc :

1. personnaly i NEVER give ten rewards for ten consecutive “correct reps”. not even when i am first starting out with a new behavior. for me, that is too repetitious and for me, it is repetition of the same reward schedule that creates “bribery” (for lack of a better word)
- iow, i don’t think a dog is really “thinking” much if they do something ten times in rapid succession. and for me, i want the dog to REALLY think and respond to what i’m trying to get it to do, so if i’m lucky enuff to get a correct response for a new behavior on three consecutive reps, i am a happy camper and will STOP that set and quickly switch to another command. often the dog will just repeat the previous beahvior  that tells me it has stopped thinking, and is just being robotic //lol//
- i also think that rewarding too many successive reps allows the behavior to get sloppy and starts to condition bad habits. they may not look blatant, but they often won’t be as precise as what i am looking for, and this can be for something as simple as a “down”

2. using that many continuous rewards in a row can also make the session turn into a feeding session rather than a set of training reps. bottom line for me is i want to use continuous reinforcement (rewarding every correct response) as little as possible. i often won't even use a treat for each successive correct response. that's why i referred to verbal praise being forgotten sometimes

3. lastly, i don’t go from continous to random. i transition from continuous to different, fixed variable rates and then EVENTUALLY go to random. meaning i go thru the reward schedules a lot slower than other people do, and view it in terms of a specific number of reps and sets. if that sounds too detailed and anal, sorry, but i just tend to train at a slower rate than others might train when they use markers.
- i rationalize that by feeling the behavior will be more solid, precise and reliable when done that way and less proofing will be required later. and since i am NOT all “all positive" trainer, positive punishment will be MUCH clearer when it’s necessary, and less of it will be required 

4. and unless the dog is lucky enough to be born with tons of motivation to work, i can get better motivation this way by using less sets and more breaks (the philosophy of quitting when the dog wants more, etc etc)

hope that wasn’t getting down in the weeds too much, but that’s the best i can do as far as explaining my perspective //lol//

you’re obviously doing a lot of things well with your dog since you are satisfied with it most of the time. i  would still recommend you make sure you are on the same page with your IPO trainer and not using a different system when you are not on the IPO field, because that will make it harder for your dog, and i have had personal experience with exactly this type of situation


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## shelle fenton (Sep 24, 2015)

thanks Rick, for all the weeds. And this makes things clear for me. 
IPO is like learning a different language. and as Im the only one using english commands, quite literally!

i was able to demonstrate to my trainer 2 things:
Behaviour A: Dog sat in start position, looking at me when given cue "watch me". And how he then looks away.
Behaviour B: whee dog is in sit stay, and i walk in front, around to side, come from behind, and the dog is glued to me, stand over him like some mondeo ring dude, and as was described; boring holes into my eyes.

My trainer has advised sagely: For this 8 yr old pet dog, that's fine, i can shape the behaviour. But when I start training my pup, i will be expected to go the long way around, to lay a solid foundation in readiness for the layers i will add to that foundation later. So i am excused from taking the long route, but letting me know im being lazy.
thankyou for taking the time to explain.

Not sure if you guys can remember the beginning days of your own training. Its awfully confusing at times lol


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## Jeffrey Eggenberger (Jan 3, 2013)

rick smith said:


> Shelle
> 
> 1. terms are not very important to me. the actual techniques used and the system they are applied with is all that matters to me. meaning, lots of people do tell me they use markers, but i still feel “markers” has become a very general term these days and they are applied in LOTS of different ways



"Markers" are at the very heart of the training. Operant conditioning. Pavlov discovered that a marker, (ringing a bell) when it precedes a reward, (food) creates a reaction in the Dog (or any animal) equal to the food or reward. It is involuntary. How can you use Markers in a general way? Seems fairly absolute to me.


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

shelle fenton said:


> My trainer has advised sagely: For this 8 yr old pet dog, that's fine, i can shape the behaviour. But when I start training my pup, i will be expected to go the long way around, to lay a solid foundation in readiness for the layers i will add to that foundation later. So i am excused from taking the long route, but letting me know im being lazy.
> thankyou for taking the time to explain.
> 
> Not sure if you guys can remember the beginning days of your own training. Its awfully confusing at times lol


I remember the beginning. 

You're not being lazy. There's a huge learning curve in training for any dog sport and sometimes you have to accept the limitations of your dog, especially when you are starting out with an eight year old pet. Be gentle with yourself, as well. You are new to this, and with anything new, what comes easily and naturally to those more experienced is still awkward and unnatural to you. 

With my first dog, I did a lot of things wrong and there came a point when trying to fix what I had created (chewy dumb bells, for example) was just going to cause other issues, so I just accepted that I would lose points on the trial field in that exercise and kept training. In the end, we do this for fun, not to beat ourselves and our dogs up for our mistakes and shortcomings. 

Plus everything you think you learned from your first dog, will totally go out the window when you start training your next dog, who will be completely different.


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