# Question on Kennel construction



## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Hey got a question and taking a shot in the dark. Have a client asking us to build a outdoor kennel out of expanded flat or standard metal. I know the construction of it just needing to know if anybody has ever used this for a kennel. Also wanting to know the upside and downside of it. Never built kennels out of this material before. I personally think like I told the customer it might cut a dogs paws or teeth getting stuck in it. Any help would be greatly appreciated or peoples thoughts. I told the gentleman I would research this construction and let him know if I would or would not build this for him. Me personally am leaning towards not doing it. Maybe you guys can give insight in good reason to build it.:-k


PLEASE SHOOT AWAY FOLKS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Forgot to mention foy you that are not familiar with expanded metal. Expanded metal is what you see on the floor of utility trailers. Sorry, please shoot away.


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

With the diamond mesh looking stuff? Can you post a pic? If so, I'd be a bit worried about toes and nails getting stuck in it, when they jump up on it. One of my dipshits got his foot caught and twisted in his $600 powder coated ubber kennel, so I guess nothing is full proof. =D>


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## eric squires (Oct 16, 2008)

They make a plastic coated type. I have seen it used in crate flooring. I believe it is USDA approved for small animal flooring. I have used the uncoated type as hog flooring and it was pretty rough so i understand your concern. For a hot weather enviroment i can see where a floor design like this might be useful.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)




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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

I had dog boxes for SUV's built, using expanded metal on the sides and top. Never on the floor. For the floor we used rubber mat covered plywood and screwed the cage to the plywood. Our outdoor kennels are made of commercial grade double knuckle chain-link.

DFrost


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

yea not crazy about this but told the guy I would give a couple days of planning and research and let him know something.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

David Frost said:


> I had dog boxes for SUV's built, using expanded metal on the sides and top. Never on the floor. For the floor we used rubber mat covered plywood and screwed the cage to the plywood. Our outdoor kennels are made of commercial grade double knuckle chain-link.
> 
> DFrost


would not be used for a floor. just walls like a magnum or chain link type set up. Dont know what the guy is using for a floor. Trying to get him to spend some money and build european kennels. will see though. I am not really wanting to do this job and if it turns out o be a bad idea I will try to steer him in a different direction or just won't take the job.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

David Frost said:


> I had dog boxes for SUV's built, using expanded metal on the sides and top. Never on the floor. For the floor we used rubber mat covered plywood and screwed the cage to the plywood. Our outdoor kennels are made of commercial grade double knuckle chain-link.
> 
> DFrost


David how did the dogs make out with the expanded metal ( paws,teeth,muzzles ). did the metal flex and bend to much from the knocking around.


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## Lynn Cheffins (Jul 11, 2006)

I've used expanded metal on dog box doors - it is best to have it to the diamonds are sideways (like your link picture) - if you put it the other way they tend to catch toenails if they scratch at it.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

I have never used it for kennels but used to have a welding shop. There is raised expanded and flattened expanded. Either can be pretty sharp in the inside edges. The smaller stuff will more likely catch toes and stuff so I would stay with the larger diamonds. You are going to have to look at it up close before buying it and make a judgement call.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

I have had a aluminum and steel shop for a number of years and have messed with a good bit of expanded metal, but only for trailers never a outdoor kennel , Diamonds come in 1/2 " and 3/4 " within the USA and do come bigger but gets alot more expensive if not buying in Mexico.](*,)


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

We have recently used it for one puppy pen because when we replaced the perimeter fencing with wrought iron, we needed to put something on the section was the one side of the puppy pen because puppies would slip through the bars of the new fencing. 

We've raised one litter so far in it so the jury is still out. I know what I don't like for pups are the X-pens as the pups will bite the bars and get their mouths stuck. I won't know what I think about the puppy pen for some time though. 

For adults, I would recommend bars like the European style kennels. There is a good reason when the French and Belg and Dutch use these kennels for the working dogs as working dogs will find a way to hurt themselves and destroy their teeth. It's as if it's their mission in life so make it hard for them.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Debbie Skinner said:


> We have recently used it for one puppy pen because when we replaced the perimeter fencing with wrought iron, we needed to put something on the section was the one side of the puppy pen because puppies would slip through the bars of the new fencing.
> 
> We've raised one litter so far in it so the jury is still out. I know what I don't like for pups are the X-pens as the pups will bite the bars and get their mouths stuck. I won't know what I think about the puppy pen for some time though.
> 
> For adults, I would recommend bars like the European style kennels. There is a good reason when the French and Belg and Dutch use these kennels for the working dogs as working dogs will find a way to hurt themselves and destroy their teeth. It's as if it's their mission in life so make it hard for them.


Thats the problem Debbie its for a adult, which I agree with you on al the chances, Have tried to offer a built european style to him but don't know if he will take it or not. If they were pups I wouldn't worry to much about it either.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

I was a machinist and welder for the US Govt for a few years. And I did a lot of the welding for the Signature K-9 crates and free standing kennels early on. I worked with expanded metal some on a few Govt projects. I love the many uses of the stuff, but in my opinion it is not well suited for dog kennels. Their is a safety issue with it I think. Their are sharp edges and the diamond shape tapers down to be able to trap toes. Depending on how your clients dog behaves in a kennel I guess. But I will tell you that I would never put one of our dogs in kennel made from expanded metal.
Unless you have a lot of braces in it, it will also bend out really bad if the dog pushes off of it a lot like some of our dogs tend to do. Pushing off of it will also really increase the odds of it catching a toe.
The other issue that I see with almost every type of mild steel is that it will rust. Even if it is powder coated it will still rust and within a couple years it will look like hell. Unless you use Stainless steel (obviously not cost effective). I have used almost every type of kennel made just to test drive one of them before pullling the trigger on 40 of them.
What I have found is that their is no better kennel made in the US for the money than Mason Kennels.
Go with their 9 gauge 1" or 1 1/2" square mesh and you will never have any problems with injury, with rust, or with failure. I have seen Mason fence panels that are 35 years old and still look new. In my kennel alone I have had over 600 dogs pass through here and not one dog has injured himself on the fence, to include no broken teeth. With some of the other fence panels I have used I have had dogs open the latches, break their legs, break their teeth, cut themselves, get injured from fence fighting with another dog, those kennels have rusted, have broken loose, and now look terrible after a couple years. I only use those for baby puppies now.
This is my opinion.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Got some decent responses here people keep them coming


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Two things...RUST and it could be a point of contact for a nail to get hung up and snapped off!!!!!!!


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

We used to do all the welding and fabrication at the Fresno zoo. Interesting work for sure and there is some stuff that is available such as really heavy hardware cloth. It is heavy metal rods woven like chain link but it is only available through specialty houses. The use the really heavy version on things like rock crushing plants and shakers. The mesh determines the size of rock. Too expensive to be building kennels with but they can't get their toes caught in it.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> We used to do all the welding and fabrication at the Fresno zoo. Interesting work for sure and there is some stuff that is available such as really heavy hardware cloth. It is heavy metal rods woven like chain link but it is only available through specialty houses. The use the really heavy version on things like rock crushing plants and shakers. The mesh determines the size of rock. Too expensive to be building kennels with but they can't get their toes caught in it.


Don Actually was thinking about that stuff, I see it on the side of I-40 going through the gorge on the way to TN. Thanks for the info on pricing I had a feeling that it was expensive. Thanks for saving me time on researching where to find it.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

As far as rust, general maintenance is generally required to keep most things in good order. A wire brush and a can of rustoleum is normal all that is necessary to keep things in good order and give them a longer life......much easier to maintain something than to let it go and have to replace it. Like younhave to do with your vehicles, houses, lawns, boats. Kennels are no different.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> As far as rust, general maintenance is generally required to keep most things in good order. A wire brush and a can of rustoleum is normal all that is necessary to keep things in good order and give them a longer life......much easier to maintain something than to let it go and have to replace it. Like younhave to do with your vehicles, houses, lawns, boats. Kennels are no different.


 That depends on the type of kennel I guess. My dad has some mason kennels that are over 30 years old and they have never been touched with anything other than water everyday. They still look new.
My Mason panels are only a few years old, but I have never touched them either, except for bleaching them everyday and spraying them off quickly. They look new still also. if you put bleach on a steel kennel that is powder coated, you can watch it rust in front of your eyes.
I prefer to use kennels that dont require any maintance, that way I can put all my maintance efforts into things that have to have it, like my vehicles, my house, the lawnmower, etc.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I would not use it. too sharp, to bendy, and it does get out of shape. I wouldn't put my name on it.


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

It's simple, dogs safety at all times and would you use it? If so, go for it, if not, suggest other things for him/her. Maybe there is something more cost effective. I have seen that stuff when pushed or pressure applied would splinter like would, very fine metals and or crack all together. I used it on the sled dog box on the back of my truck years ago and after a few cut noses, I just took it out and kept an empty hole! LOL Of course its a little different, but you get the point.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Mike, my problem with chainlink is it makes easy climbing for the dogs. Not saying that mason chain link isn't good, have a friend in CT that loves that crap but he has had to go to the extra expense of putting toppers on all of them to keep in his dogs. Thats why I prefer the european styles that have no cross members built out of aluminum ( wont rust but does oxidize ). Right now I'm using kennels that are similar to magnums but are not powdercoated instead are hot dipped. My three buddies have had them for a number of years now and have had no rust issues, although I will admit because I have them to now that the latch systems are crap, I hate them so am trying to come up with a new latch system or modify them for the dop locl latches that are on the magnums. Don't know though and still to be decided.

Mike how big are the diamonds on your Masons? Do they come with smaller holes?


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I would not use it. too sharp, to bendy, and it does get out of shape. I wouldn't put my name on it.


 
Jeff I will not make it most likely and am trying to talk the guy out of it, or will probally turn the job down.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Jody Butler said:


> It's simple, dogs safety at all times and would you use it? If so, go for it, if not, suggest other things for him/her. Maybe there is something more cost effective. I have seen that stuff when pushed or pressure applied would splinter like would, very fine metals and or crack all together. I used it on the sled dog box on the back of my truck years ago and after a few cut noses, I just took it out and kept an empty hole! LOL Of course its a little different, but you get the point.


You know me dude I would not put any of my dogs into a death warrant or a never ending vet visit. Been trying to talk the guy into a european. I'm not worry about the cost because hes paying for it. Appreciate the heads up on it with your experience with it Jody. Yea the shit would defently require extra support and structure. I told the guy all of this but hes dam thick headed and insist on it. Maybe hes got a pussy ass dog LOL. Dont know though so I guess i shouldn't make that assumption but still not a practical build.


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

I took some photos of my different kennels. For the boarding kennel where I also used to house a lot of imported dogs when I was doing that more, I have heavy duty bar style kennels with solid dividers. The front doors and side panels happen to be aluminum panels as I got a great deal on some used ones. We had to put galvanized steel sheets bolted to the divider panels as dogs could stand on their hind legs to attempt to fence fight and bite each others front toes! Solid divider panels are the best imo. The front and back round bar panels are galvanized steel. If you have lose dogs around the kennels or a lot of people coming and going someone could get bit through the bars though.

I'm not really perfectly satisfied with my latches. I love the door feeders, sleeping platforms. I don't care for the newer smaller kennels with the solid corregated galv. steel panels as they are more difficult to clean.

Square tubing (wrought iron) is more difficult to clean (steam clean) as well, but is more decorative and good for my personal dogs. 

I want galvanized or powder-coated steel for any kennels that are used heavily. For the fence we just paint the panels.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Dogs NEED to be kept inside so they feel warm and safe...no kennels! :^o


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Howard Gaines III said:


> Dogs NEED to be kept inside so they feel warm and safe...no kennels! :^o


And the shame of it all! Check out the poor little kitties (photos below) out in the cold SoCal winter! :-({|=

At least the dobie (boarding dog) has an igloo with bed and platform with blankets :smile:

Here is a photo too of my puppy pen where I'm trying the diamond expando metal for the first time. So far no problems, again just a puppy pen to keep them from going through the front fencing. Time will tell.


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## Lynn Cheffins (Jul 11, 2006)

nice kennel set-ups!


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

I have had 3 or 4 chain link kennels sitting out in the yard for years now and they don't have a spot of rust on them yet if that's what ya want. Of course I have to leave the doors open or the dogs bow them in or strip. I welded a bar across one once to keep them from bowing the bottom of the door. When I cam home the dog had pulled the kennel 30 to 40 ft across the yard until it came up against the fence and wouldn't go an farther. This is a 13'L x 7 1/2' w x 6' kennel. I moved the kennel back to where it belonged and drove cememt stakes around it. Since the kennel was now stationary, the dog coulkd pull as hard as he wanted and stripped the wire off of one end. I decided they worked great as long as the door was left open.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Debbie, awesome set up, I mean very nice kennels. I need to one of thesedays take time to build them for myself (european) instead of buying other peoples stuff. Fat chance of having time to myself though LOL. You defently have one of the nicest set ups though thats for sure.

Don, problem with chainlink is it flex to much and then the dogs work it right off the frame and onto the ground. Never had masons though and maybe the heavier gauge prevents that but would like to hear back from mike to see how the chainlink is attached to the frame and what he is using or a top.

Still need though to try to talk this fool into letting me build him a kennel out of a different type of material though otherwise from everybodys comments and might thoughts were already in place before everybody else responses to not do this job. If hes persistent then I guess I will be telling the guy to take a walk and find somebody else to slice and dice his dog for him.

Would like to still see some pics and comments from everybody though because I still plan on adding two additional kennels to my personal set up.


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