# Breed trait differences,especially Rottweilers!



## Lalit Dukkipati (May 24, 2011)

A breed like rottweiler , I mean, some bloodlines , if especially, serious, have have been known to difficult to handle and manage . In the old days , many Rottweiler people used to describe their dogs as one family dogs , meaning , their dogs are not social to non-family . These dogs do not like to be touched by non-family , which includes judges who check their bite ( scissor bite confirmation) .Is that the product of environment or genetics.

Also , Rottweiler is described as handler-sensitive , meaning corrections . 

My other question is , are dogs from working lines from all breeds, in general similar in their traits or is it more the individual traits across all dogs and breeds.

I understand my question is not specific , but might lead to interpretations based on individual perception . Some might have experience with more than one breed in the working lines . They may be able to offer their insight here .

Regards,
Lalit


----------



## Lalit Dukkipati (May 24, 2011)

Lalit Dukkipati said:


> A breed like rottweiler , I mean, some bloodlines , if especially, serious, have have been known to difficult to handle and manage . In the old days , many Rottweiler people used to describe their dogs as one family dogs , meaning , their dogs are not social to non-family . These dogs do not like to be touched by non-family , which includes judges who check their bite ( scissor bite confirmation) .Is that the product of environment or genetics.
> 
> Also , Rottweiler is described as handler-sensitive , meaning corrections .
> 
> ...


Well to be more clear or specific , are there trait differences that appear in training and in temperament in molosser origin breeds and shepherd origin breeds ? 
Like certain breeds because of certain temperament or traits need different training approaches overall and not trying to generalise breeds . Certainly , it is known that within the same breed there are trait differences to a certain extent and also some similarity to some extent .


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

I think there are lots of dogs that dont want to be touched by strangers, of all breeds.

I also think that dogs are all different and some will require different approaches in the training for various reasons.


----------



## Lalit Dukkipati (May 24, 2011)

Understood about different training approaches depending on dogs . What about handler sensitivity to corrections like in breeds like Dogo Argentino and in some cases the rottweiler , I mean , the Dogos are supposedly tough in hunting ( I am talking about the good ones ) but sensitive to corrections from the owner. 
A dog that is game in hunting wild boar is sensitive to handler corrections . Would it be the drive, that makes the dog impervious to pain and fear during the hunt ?

Lalit


----------



## Doug Zaga (Mar 28, 2010)

Lalit,


I have a Rottweiler I imported from the Netherland. He has a working pedigree with Stephan von Kaisersteinbruch in his bottom half. He is independent, vocal, serious, possessive and if he does not like you, you will know it. Even though he is my house dog I have to watch and read him at all times with company, If he comes to you fine but don't force the meeting. An issue I had to be aware of when scanning his chip for his BH and when we begin IPO.


He does not deal nicely with inappropriate corrections and through my inexperience at 7 months old it became at tmes a physical confrontation between us which only created alot of conflict. Working with my current TD I have learned to work around those issues and stay mainly with R+ and R-. Ecollar is used and I had to stop using the prong for P+ because it just creates fight with me.


One of the serious mistake I made (never to repeat with next puppy) was not working enough in prey and letting him mature before expecting more. In protection, now at almost 4 years old, he works in aggression, and defense, not always best but his bite and strikes are hard and full.


He is my first working dog and he has taught me alot as well as the many good people who have worked with us.


He does like to work. He has high food drive, high drive for his tennis ball and medium drive for a ball on a string and tug. The lower drive for those toys are due to my stupid mistakes I made when he was young! 


What I have learned is I have to incorporate rewards in areas where we are trying to clean up issues or work on issues. He does so much better and I am not in a physical fight with and our bond has gotten much better... go figure!!!! :lol:


----------



## Lalit Dukkipati (May 24, 2011)

Know of a dog here that was the grandson of Ter waele posse whose father was Stephan von Kaisersteinbruch . His mother is Askija von Shambala and father is Bronco vom schloss hexental . 

Was great in prey , runs fast bites good , However , he has not so good nerves during stress , was average and very prey , Guess , I wouldn't know he got it from his mother Askija ( sister to Ambassador ) .

He could take corrections during training and be somewhat submissive but not hard enough for real work .

He had the drives , not so good nerves and a medium pain threshold . A gentleman Rottweiler , but not the brash rottweiler I would prefer .

Lalit




Doug Zaga said:


> Lalit,
> 
> 
> I have a Rottweiler I imported from the Netherland. He has a working pedigree with Stephan von Kaisersteinbruch in his bottom half. He is independent, vocal, serious, possessive and if he does not like you, you will know it. Even though he is my house dog I have to watch and read him at all times with company, If he comes to you fine but don't force the meeting. An issue I had to be aware of when scanning his chip for his BH and when we begin IPO.
> ...


----------



## Doug Zaga (Mar 28, 2010)

Awesome, nice to hear you have experience with some of the off spring although weak nerve not good!!!

Had a couple new helpers work him a few weeks ago my TD said they both flinched as he came into the blind when they put pressure on him. I think one helper said he came up at her face when she put pressure on him; pain.

Don aus der Espanstatte x Ter Waele Zand son.


----------



## Lalit Dukkipati (May 24, 2011)

The one I know of was out of Bronco vom Schloss hexental / Askija von shambala . Bronco's father was Ter waele Posse and his mother was Uschi vom schloss hexental . whose was out of Igor Muthmannsdorf/Queeny vom schloss hexental . 


Here is Bronco's mother Uschi's pedigree https://www.pedigreedatabase.com/rottweiler/dog.html?id=1777457-uschi-vom-schloss-hexental



Doug Zaga said:


> Awesome, nice to hear you have experience with some of the off spring although weak nerve not good!!!
> 
> Don aus der Espanstatte x Ter Waele Zand son.


----------



## Doug Zaga (Mar 28, 2010)

Did you ever see or work TW Posse, Don, or Ben vom Langen Grund?


----------



## Lalit Dukkipati (May 24, 2011)

Doug Zaga said:


> Did you ever see or work TW Posse, Don, or Ben vom Langen Grund?


No , I haven't seen Ter waele posse or Ben . What is ben's pedigree ?

And the dog I mentioned is now 8 years old , has full grips and hard bites and not exactly a wuss . He's got mild mistrust , not so friendly , and definitely not dog agressive and definitely could be titled for IPO . 

Just not a dog hard enough for real life . May be , for some people he might be a hard dog , if they are not experienced enough . Just seen Ben Vom langen Grund's pedigree . May be he is very good , His pedigree is not my liking . One dog very far away Kai wildberger schloss and another dog Endy Kurpalz I prefer . But others , not so much .


----------



## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Lalit Dukkipati said:


> Understood about different training approaches depending on dogs . What about handler sensitivity to corrections like in breeds like Dogo Argentino and in some cases the rottweiler , I mean , the Dogos are supposedly tough in hunting ( I am talking about the good ones ) but sensitive to corrections from the owner.
> A dog that is game in hunting wild boar is sensitive to handler corrections . Would it be the drive, that makes the dog impervious to pain and fear during the hunt ?
> 
> Lalit


That is interesting.

We had a Fila Brasileiro that was handler sensitive and as most Molossers that are dragged up properly, very obedient to their owners but* only* their owners! A harsh word from a stranger can put their back up.

The Fila was imported to hunt the wild boar in Europe.

I don't know much about the Dogo Argentino but here in Europe the Rottweiler does not belong to the Molosser Breed Club.

I have had a lot to do with Rottweilers here in Switzerland. We've visited Temperance Testing, watched them in trials. My friends had a Rottweiler Kennel.

I have something very unscientific to say: there are Rottweilers that are very peaceful but not suitable for protection work. There are Rottweilers that have done good protection work here in Switzerland.

However, sadly, they are not represented greatly in Europe.


----------



## Lalit Dukkipati (May 24, 2011)

Heard that Switzerland had the mos working lines in Rottweilers and the breeders are not so advertised .

Holzbrunneli is a good kennel in Switzerland . When i am looking for a good Rottweiler , i am looking for one that do well in patrol work with a lot of hardness .




Gillian Schuler said:


> That is interesting.
> 
> We had a Fila Brasileiro that was handler sensitive and as most Molossers that are dragged up properly, very obedient to their owners but* only* their owners! A harsh word from a stranger can put their back up.
> 
> ...


----------



## Lalit Dukkipati (May 24, 2011)

Rottweilers do not belong to molosser breed club . Thought they come molosser classification FCI standard .

But then, that's FCI , I guess . Some people call ( very few ) Rottweiler a German Bandog . 

The rottweiler show people breed a mastiff type looking Rottweiler .

Lalit




Gillian Schuler said:


> That is interesting.
> 
> We had a Fila Brasileiro that was handler sensitive and as most Molossers that are dragged up properly, very obedient to their owners but* only* their owners! A harsh word from a stranger can put their back up.
> 
> ...


----------



## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Lalit,

I watched Dagmar Beständig in training in Zürich with Iron Haus Diethelm. Dagmar is a very good trainer and the dog was one of the best I have seen in ages - lithe, eager. The breeder of our GSDS worked him and he came on like a house on fire.

He was 4th in 2009 out of 52 compeitiors from 17 countries

In 2008 he was 16th in Holland. Dagmar couldn't throw the dumbell over the A-frame correctly and he missed the 5th place by losing 15 points on this exercise.

Dagmar is an extremely good dog trainer. I see she still has contact to Rosmarie Bach from Germany, another girl I personally watced in training.

Have a look at her website. I'm sure she can speak English:

http://www.dogtrainingzvu.ch/index.html


----------



## Lalit Dukkipati (May 24, 2011)

Hello Gillian,

This Iron , is he a bred by a swiss kennel ? I would like to know his pedigree . Will try and look for it . But , thanks for mentioning this dog to me . I am always on the prowl for a good rottweiler .

Lalit


Gillian Schuler said:


> Lalit,
> 
> I watched Dagmar Beständig in training in Zürich with Iron Haus Diethelm. Dagmar is a very good trainer and the dog was one of the best I have seen in ages - lithe, eager. The breeder of our GSDS worked him and he came on like a hause on fire.
> 
> He was 4th in


----------



## Martin Koops (Oct 15, 2009)

Hi Lalit,
You can check out Iron on "working dog eu", just type his name in the dog search screen.

Good site you can often find a lot of details on siblings and offspring as well.


----------



## Lalit Dukkipati (May 24, 2011)

Martin Koops said:


> Hi Lalit,
> You can check out Iron on "working dog eu", just type his name in the dog search screen.
> 
> Good site you can often find a lot of details on siblings and offspring as well.



Hello Martin,
Did try and find out the Iron Haus Diethelm on the website . I know of this website from a long time .However when I type this dog's name , a golden retriever comes up .

Lalit


----------



## Martin Koops (Oct 15, 2009)

looked him up worked fine. Did you get on to the universal-dog eu site by mistake?

Nice compact Rotty 63cm/44kg


----------



## Lalit Dukkipati (May 24, 2011)

Martin Koops said:


> looked him up worked fine. Did you get on to the universal-dog eu site by mistake?
> 
> Nice compact Rotty 63cm/44kg


Thanks martin found him. I do not know many dogs in the pedigree . Only know Maik vom Holzbrunneli Roy hause Neubrand and Greif vom oberhausener Norden . do not know the Dam's side of dogs. Maik is a very good dog .

Lalit


----------



## Martin Koops (Oct 15, 2009)

Some nice dogs back in the pedigree Aki, Arri and Anton.


----------



## Lalit Dukkipati (May 24, 2011)

Martin Koops said:


> Some nice dogs back in the pedigree Aki, Arri and Anton.


Yes Martin ,
I agree , but they are way too far in the pedigree . For me , the best bet is the sire and dam of the dog and what are they like as in serious .
And not the titles . I use the pedigree only to determine the sire and dam's parents and health .

Do not like the dogs to weigh no more than 45 kg and not too big a head not too big bones . To me 45 kg is ideal to work and not get so overheated and a 9 cm muzzle to breathe effectively . 

Lalit


----------



## Martin Koops (Oct 15, 2009)

I agree, l like lighter Rottweiler's myself 40-45kg male is my ideal.

My first female Rotty's were 34-38kg in the 1980's plenty of speed and endurance.

Now I've gone over to Malinois.


----------



## Maureen A Osborn (Feb 12, 2010)

Yes, Dogo Argentinos are dominant, but also can handler sensitive(some more than others)....a bad mix for people that don't know how to work a dog like this. However, due to poor breeding practices, I have seen the whole spectrum of temperaments in the dogo, even pups from the same litter. People are wanting them more for pets, show, and $$$ instead of keeping them true to hunting/working. I have since gone over to the Dutch Shepherd KNPV lines.


----------



## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Dagmar Beständig was in our Training Group in Zürich. The helper was the breeder of both our GSDS. He was a very dominant helper and knew exactly what each dog needed. So he put Iron on a bungee line for a while.The dog was the same age as my GSD but slightly behind in protection work.

However, Dagmar was a very good handler and Iron was one of the best Rottweilers I have seen but unfortunately the Rottweilers both in Switzerland and International tend to compete just in Rottweiler circles.

They have a Swiss "5 R Championship" each year, i.e. Rottweilers, Great Schnauzers, Boxers, Dobermanns and Airdales.

This "inner circle" in my mind will only decrease the quality of all these breeds.


----------



## Lalit Dukkipati (May 24, 2011)

Gillian Schuler said:


> Dagmar Beständig was in our Training Group in Zürich. The helper was the breeder of both our GSDS. He was a very dominant helper and knew exactly what each dog needed. So he put Iron on a bungee line for a while.The dog was the same age as my GSD but slightly behind in protection work.
> 
> However, Dagmar was a very good handler and Iron was one of the best Rottweilers I have seen but unfortunately the Rottweilers both in Switzerland and International tend to compete just in Rottweiler circles.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the info . Switzerland is supposed to have the most working lines in Rottweilers . Their breeders , not so commercial . 

From hearsay , internationally in IPO , have some thoughts that the Rottweiler needs different helper work , compared to Malinois or may be GSD to some extent .

Some working rottweiler handlers are of the opinion that the IPO style helper work doesn't suit the Rottweiler and hence lose points .


----------



## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I don't think this is the problem. Our helper was used to Rottweilers. We visited a club near to Rottweil where there were a number of Rottweilers. As I tried to calm my GSD, they were outside the fence, trying to motivate their Rotteilers by letting them watch the GSDs work.

A good handler can handle many breeds.

I think this is a Rottweiler breeder/ handler problem.

I have to ask where can the Rottweilers work in sport?

We have a few Rottweilers with the Police force.


----------



## Lalit Dukkipati (May 24, 2011)

Gillian Schuler said:


> I don't think this is the problem. Our helper was used to Rottweilers. We visited a club near to Rottweil where there were a number of Rottweilers. As I tried to calm my GSD, they were outside the fence, trying to motivate their Rotteilers by letting them watch the GSDs work.
> 
> A good handler can handle many breeds.
> 
> ...


Hello Gillian,
Appreciate your response . 
A good handler can handle many breeds

I was told about IPO style of helper work is not suitable for the Rottweiler Oliver Neubrand of Germany and a few other people who seem to think the same . 

I think this is a Rottweiler breeder/ handler problem

I do not know firsthand to comment on this . But definitely , a breeder problem as Rottweiler breeders lean towards conformation . Do not know about the handlers skills . 


I have to ask where can the Rottweilers work in sport?

I am not knowledgeable about sport , except , that I read an interview where an Austrian working Rottweiler person commented that rottweilers are not suited for schutzhund and that one should not make attempts to change the breed for Schutzhund . This person's name eludes me now .


We have a few Rottweilers with the Police force.

This is most encouraging and gives hope to me that I will find a very good rottweiler in my lifetime .

Lalit


----------



## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

was told about IPO style of helper work is not suitable for the Rottweiler Oliver Neubrand of Germany and a few other people who seem to think the same . 

I only know that from our group some went to Oliver Neubrand to train but their dogs had already been worked by our helper and had no problems. They said he was good. On his website it seems he goes in for a lot of showing. The philosophy of bitework is not mentioned.

What I wonder is the statement that Helpers with "IPO Style" are not suitable for Rottweilers.

Our helpers work the dogs to bite first and foremost, regardless of whether they are intended for IPO, Swiss Trials, Army, Police, etc. This comes later.

I am at a loss as to understand the statement about IPO Style.


----------



## Lalit Dukkipati (May 24, 2011)

Hello Gillian ,
Oliver Neubrand at present likes show dogs more as they sell better ,

About IPO style helper work , I am not downplaying IPO helper work . It is just that they say that Rottweilers do not have a lot of drive to work them . 
They need to feel a need to bite ( Lazy biters) . Again , this will be better explained by people with experience with both breeds . I do not have vast experience to discuss this . And may be I am wrong . 

Hope , I did not give the impression of downplaying IPO or mals and GSDs . They are great dogs and on the average much better than the Rottweilers . IPO is a great sport and they have excellent helpers.

Regards,
Lalit 




Gillian Schuler said:


> was told about IPO style of helper work is not suitable for the Rottweiler Oliver Neubrand of Germany and a few other people who seem to think the same .
> 
> I only know that from our group some went to Oliver Neubrand to train but their dogs had already been worked by our helper and had no problems. They said he was good. On his website it seems he goes in for a lot of showing. The philosophy of bitework is not mentioned.
> 
> ...


----------



## Lalit Dukkipati (May 24, 2011)

Here's an interview with Oliver Neubrand 

http://www.tinafinn.net/tiedostot/TRM_The_Rottweiler_today.pdf


Lalit



Lalit Dukkipati said:


> Hello Gillian ,
> Oliver Neubrand at present likes show dogs more as they sell better ,
> 
> About IPO style helper work , I am not downplaying IPO helper work . It is just that they say that Rottweilers do not have a lot of drive to work them .
> ...


----------



## Keith Jenkins (Jun 6, 2007)

Lalit Dukkipati said:


> Hello Gillian ,
> Oliver Neubrand at present likes show dogs more as they sell better ,
> 
> About IPO style helper work , I am not downplaying IPO helper work . It is just that they say that Rottweilers do not have a lot of drive to work them .
> ...


What a load of shit.


----------



## Lalit Dukkipati (May 24, 2011)

Keith Jenkins said:


> What a load of shit.


can you enlighten " what's the load of shit " here .


----------



## Lalit Dukkipati (May 24, 2011)

Lalit Dukkipati said:


> can you enlighten " what's the load of shit " here .


I do not claim I am right . Just thoughts and a discussion I was having with Gillian . As I was told that in her country there are some good rottweilers . 
I would appreciate if you show me the error of my statements . I believe that you have a valid reason for disagreeing with me . Perhaps , If my statements are incorrect and if I had offended you , you have my apologies , I only wrote what I heard from some IPO people .

I am a Rottweiler enthusiast myself . My statements do not encompass all rottweilers . I am speaking in general . There are more show rottweilers in numbers .As a breed, Rottweiler is different than Malinois or GSD . The malinois is highly excitable and drivey from my observations of what we have here . A rottweiler is calmer . I have seen only a couple of good rottweilers here . 

Overall , in the present day ,I felt that there are more working lines Malis followed by GSD and then other breeds . I didn't want to start a breed fight by starting this thread .

Lalit


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

If anyone has a disagreement in someone's post then explain why you feel that way. 
"What a load of shit" doesn't cut it!


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Lalit Dukkipati said:


> Hello Gillian ,
> About IPO style helper work , I am not downplaying IPO helper work . It is just that they say that Rottweilers do not have a lot of drive to work them.
> 
> *What is IPO style Helper work, and how is it not right for Rottweilers?*
> ...


----------



## Lalit Dukkipati (May 24, 2011)

Hello Joby,
As I had first clarified in my earllier posts , I do not have any experience with IPO . As I was not sure about it , I had posted to know if I was right or wrong .
In bitework of what we did over here , some Rottweilers ( may be less drive ) did not bite so well , unless , the decoy had to make them serious . The Malis on the other hand , were driven and bit hard . The term "lazy" was not implied in a derogatory sense . I felt that Rottweilers needed more of a challenge from the decoy . 

Again , I am only speaking of my experience which is not at par with abroad . Not in the least , I was starting to state undeniable truths about what I do not have experience with .


I had a couple conversations and read about a few IPO people in Europe , saying that IPO helper work was not very favorable for the Rottweiler on the basis of points . Oliver Neubrand whose interview I posted made a reference of this at least . Please read the interview of the link I posted above .

Helmut Raiser in one of his interviews ( world of K9 ) , made a similar point like that in comparing GSDs and Mals and also compared Rottweilers to this effect . Especially , he mentions that Rottweilers are not so fast and want to rebite ( as they are heavier ) and not as super drivey like a Malinois who come over and over again in prey drive . And that the sport of IPO ( he was talking of Germany ) was influenced by mali people of recent ( when the malinois came into IPO scene ) . He also said that the Mali people deserved that credit as they worked hard to influence with their type of dog .

Finally , I am a nobody in the training scene , and I was only writing my posts to find out . I may write like an ignoramus but not out of arrogance and attention seeking behaviors .

Regards,
Lalit


----------



## Keith Jenkins (Jun 6, 2007)

Bob Scott said:


> If anyone has a disagreement in someone's post then explain why you feel that way.
> "What a load of shit" doesn't cut it!


Nothing personal Bob but it simply is a load of shit. I didn't realize there was a rule on the forum we had to qualify a statement. As I am a Rottweiler owner and schutzhund competitor I presumed my objection was obvious.


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Stating that and giving examples would have been adequate!
I've also seen some excellent Rotts. Member Dave Martin's Kingston is a fine example.


----------



## Lalit Dukkipati (May 24, 2011)

This is what Oliver Neubrand , the Rottweiler breeder/Trainer wrote :


THE WORKING ROTTWEILER
The demands on today’s working Rottweiler are far and many. It should be faster, it should be more correct and it should appear more upbeat when working, it could also have better sense of courage; in too many cases judging works against our breed as the qualities that Rottweiler has to offer in dog sports go unappreciated. So then what are the qualities that a Rottweiler can compete in dog sports against his lighter and faster counterparts with? I’d say first and foremost it is his nerves. Rottweiler by nature is a very steady and self-confident dog with a strong mind, calm appearance and generally a good food drive. Once a handler finds the key to turning those qualities into his advantage the Rottweiler will rock! He will have exact exercises in obedience and strong guarding, full hard grips and dominating work in protection and an intense calm tracking.
Our problem on the other hand is the obvious; speed and not least his plain old physical size. When you think about it, a 50kg Rottweiler has to be in an excellent physical condition to stand the heat and physical strain of trialling in a mid summer heat in black fur. No matter how good a Rottweiler is, it will never be as fast as the Malinois or the GSD. In today’s trials where speed seems to be just about the most desired quality, the Rottweiler does not stand a chance even when he gives all that he’s got. For the sake of the Schutzhund sport and, of course, the Rottweiler, judging should take into consideration differences in breeds. In many all-breed trials helper work has been changing from what it should be (in accordance with the rules) to a style more suitable for the modern working breeds such as the Malinois. With differences in breeds as opposite to each other as the Rottweiler and Malinois it is obvious that the Rottweiler will suffer in the hands of this new way of helper work.
Rottweiler is a serious dog that needs serious, clear helper work in order to function at full capacity; the threat and pressure has to be “real” for a Rottweiler to respond. When a helper moves to the side instead of directly towards and over the dog in re-attack, the Rottweiler may not take him seriously and as a result he will lose points in trial. Or in driving the dog the way that Rottweiler uses his whole body to fight against pressure does not earn him the points the way that another breed may earn just for holding on to the sleeve with a full bite while running alongside the helper. Many other such examples can be seen taking place at all-breed trials. We will either have to start training our Rotties in a new way to keep up with these changes or as in too many cases switch to another breed to gain success in dog sports. We have already lost many talented handlers to other breeds and that is a shame as I am convinced that the working qualities of the Rottweiler still do exist!


----------



## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Lalit Dukkipati said:


> This is what Oliver Neubrand , the Rottweiler breeder/Trainer wrote :
> 
> 
> THE WORKING ROTTWEILER
> ...


Oliver needs to call the whaaa-bulance and get the hell out if here. The problem with Rottweilers is everything. From the breeding to the training. From the showing to the breed testing, it's all a mess. Every year their standards fall. Rottweiler folks need to look in the mirror and own the problems they have created.

Save all the "my Rottweiler is good" BS. I know of some really nice ones too. I'm talking about the breed overall.


----------



## Keith Jenkins (Jun 6, 2007)

Lalit Dukkipati said:


> This is what Oliver Neubrand , the Rottweiler breeder/Trainer wrote :
> 
> 
> THE WORKING ROTTWEILER
> ...


While Nuebrand certainly has bred some nice dogs I don't blame the sport or the judging. This is the kind of thinking that will never allow the breed to make any in-roads back into the mainstream of working sports. That and hiding out in the breed specific events which Rottweiler owners are notorious for doing.

A good working dog is a good working dog regardless of breed. Same can be said of a bad working dog is a bad working dog regardless of breed. There are plenty of shitters in the other breeds. 

While I agree that a 100lb Rottie will never perform as fast as a 65lb Mallie that is simply a matter of physics not judging. I seen many cases that Rottweilers close to the same weight as a GSD or Mallie (there are some Mallies out there you can throw a saddle on) are just as quick and correct is correct when it comes to the work. That 50kg weight used as an example can be place solely on the shoulders of the show folks and I will add that is probably a light number.


----------



## Lalit Dukkipati (May 24, 2011)

Well , I am typing down here , Helmut's own words in his interview . A lot of members may already know about this . 

Helmut Raiser : *Take the international helper work today, the <violin Schutzdienst> is typically created for Malinois, when you make this type of helper work for a Rottweiler who is not so fast, heavy and wants to dominate the fight and wants to re-bite, the point of view will be that first he must have fuller bite in the first place and hold a full calm bite in the fight and at the end. So in this type of work no chance for a dog that works in aggression,all chance for fast,light dog in prey.
*


----------



## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Lalit Dukkipati said:


> Well , I am typing down here , Helmut's own words in his interview . A lot of members may already know about this .
> 
> Helmut Raiser : *Take the international helper work today, the <violin Schutzdienst> is typically created for Malinois, when you make this type of helper work for a Rottweiler who is not so fast, heavy and wants to dominate the fight and wants to re-bite, the point of view will be that first he must have fuller bite in the first place and hold a full calm bite in the fight and at the end. So in this type of work no chance for a dog that works in aggression,all chance for fast,light dog in prey.
> *



Helmut is wrong. Where are Rottweilers doing international trials? Nowhere! They never really have. Even at the hight of Rottweiler popularity there were only a few dogs every year at the international trials. 

On top of that he says that the helperwork is created for Malinois? He has to be kidding! The FCI working commission is dominated by GSD people. The GSDs get way more titles than Malinois. So how was the helperwork created for the Malinois? Who did it? They just can't accept the fact that they have made the exact same mistakes with the GSD that Rottweiler folks have made with their breed. The only difference is that the GSD has a larger pool of dogs so the decay is moving slower. Give it another 15-20 years and the GSD will be only slightly better than the the Rottweiler is today. 

Meanwhile the GSD folks will make excuses, change the rules to give them advantages, and will continue to watch the decline of the breed and blame it on everyone but the man in the mirror.


----------



## Keith Jenkins (Jun 6, 2007)

Christopher Smith said:


> Helmut is wrong. Where are Rottweilers doing international trials? Nowhere! They never really have. Even at the hight of Rottweiler popularity there were only a few dogs every year at the international trials.
> 
> On top of that he says that the helperwork is created for Malinois? He has to be kidding! The FCI working commission is dominated by GSD people. The GSDs get way more titles than Malinois. So how was the helperwork created for the Malinois? Who did it? They just can't accept the fact that they have made the exact same mistakes with the GSD that Rottweiler folks have made with their breed. The only difference is that the GSD has a larger pool of dogs so the decay is moving slower. Give it another 15-20 years and the GSD will be only slightly better than the the Rottweiler is today.
> 
> Meanwhile the GSD folks will make excuses, change the rules to give them advantages, and will continue to watch the decline of the breed and blame it on everyone but the man in the mirror.


True there never has been any great numbers competing at bigger all breed events even 25 years ago. 

The Mallie people at least for the time being don't seem to be catering to the show people. Most people I know who work Mals could give a tinker's damn about shows and barely care if the dog has paperwork...lol. 

The Rottweiler mantra of best of both world's (show/work) has been and will continue to be the limiting factor for any true resurgence of working ability.


----------



## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Keith Jenkins said:


> The Rottweiler mantra of best of both world's (show/work) has been and will continue to be the limiting factor for any true resurgence of working ability.


I don't understand why so few people seem to be able understand that. When you make show requirements part of the breedtest requirements you are going to make problems. Then you take the show dogs and put them in the same club as the working dogs? That's crazy.


----------



## Lalit Dukkipati (May 24, 2011)

Even though , and even if only occasionally there might be or would be good representatives in most protection breeds . However , I feel that to some extent breed trait differences in Mal , working line Bouvier , working line Riesenschnauzer , working line rottweiler and even for that matter in the GSD and Mal too .

Helmut Raiser is a knowledgeable man and so is Oliver Neubrand ,even though. he breeds the so-called total rottweiler ( for the market ) . I agree and feel that Oliver is breeding more show now . That doesn't mean , he doesn't know the breed as the Neubrand family was breeding before Oliver stepped into active breeeding of Rottweilers. 

Both Helmut Raiser and Oliver Neubrand would definitely understand their own respective breed traits and evaluate their breed on that basis in training . They do not have a need to exaggerate and make excuses about why their breeds are not up to par . 

Of course , they may have their biases, sometimes, like everybody else , but they do not need to stretch them too far, considering their life's work and reputation .

To conclude, despite whatever opposition Helmut Raiser has in the GSD and Sport world , he is a man that is not afraid to speak honestly what he feels and perceives as facts . He never downplayed the malinois or its breeders.

This is only my opinion , and request not to be taken any other way .

Regards,
Lalit


----------



## Keith Jenkins (Jun 6, 2007)

Wow and they walk on water also!


----------



## Paul Cipparone (Feb 13, 2011)

Lalit , titled several Rotts, some were more driven than others, good noses, high in trial overall & high tracking.Handlers need tot find out what works for their particular dog.I have worked with off the wall Rotts,crazy toy drives , food motivation , just need to apply yourself as a handler.
Paul C.


----------



## Lalit Dukkipati (May 24, 2011)

Hello Paul.
Appreciate your reply I did not talk about handler deficiencies or my expertise as a handler or of the Rottweiler . I merely beought a certain aspect of breed trait differences and some or at least two well known personalities thoughts on to the forum .

I try and be humble in my posts , but I do have experience with certain breeds as a handler ( not the best ) but I hope I did not make it look like I am talking without experience . Have seen a few strong dogs . 

I do agree a lot of people have a lot more experience on this forum and I am sure you have dealt and trained with more dogs than I ever did in my life . I do understand what you wrote about handler proficiency . Honestly I respect your experience as a handler .What I write below is not directed at you . 

But unlike some( not referring to you and not a lot many others on the forum) , I do not have a need to be sarcastic (unprovoked sarcasm) for a harmless remark on the forum just because they do not agree with my thoughts . I do not have a problem with anybody's thoughts even if they do not go with mine , but sarcasm will never get anybody anywhere , except, will only reflect on themselves . 
Regards




Paul Cipparone said:


> Lalit , titled several Rotts, some were more driven than others, good noses, high in trial overall & high tracking.Handlers need tot find out what works for their particular dog.I have worked with off the wall Rotts,crazy toy drives , food motivation , just need to apply yourself as a handler.
> Paul C.


----------



## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Passive aggression is better than sarcasm?


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Christopher Smith said:


> Passive aggression is better than sarcasm?


in dogs..like a passive guard.

I dont like sarcastic dogs


----------



## Lalit Dukkipati (May 24, 2011)

Christopher Smith said:


> Passive aggression is better than sarcasm?


Well , according to sociologists , passive aggression is sarcasm . :-D . Or some people even refer to it as " dirty fighting " colloquially .


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Lalit Dukkipati said:


> Well , according to sociologists , passive aggression is sarcasm . :-D . Or some people even refer to it as " dirty fighting " colloquially .


nah...sarcasm can be humorous, 

or in another form, with more malicious intent , a tool that can be used by passive aggressive people.


----------



## Lalit Dukkipati (May 24, 2011)

Joby Becker said:


> nah...sarcasm can be humorous,
> 
> or in another form, with more malicious intent , a tool that can be used by passive aggressive people.


Maybe you are right , that sarcasm can be humorous for most people . To each his own , I guess . I like sarcastic dogs , though , my Bouvier is very sarcastic and on occasion was hard to train . Sarcastic dogs are a little challenge for me . But that's just me .

I do not prefer to use too much sarcasm on people I hardly know or never met or on the internet . In person , if I know someone I may use harmless sarcasm as good humor . 

Most definitely, I would not be an internet bully .:grin:

Regards,
Lalit


----------



## Keith Jenkins (Jun 6, 2007)

My grandpa always used to say if you didn't get your feelings hurt once in a while you wouldn't know what they were for....

Since you don't like sarcasm how about this?...I don't necessarily equate someone speaking with a foreign accent as automatically being the gospel. Was that clear enough? While you, Nuebrand and Raiser are certainly entitled to your opinions so am I and I'm not going to cry a river and try an blame a sport on the inability of a Rottweiler to perform at a V level. If i walk on the trial field and my dog bolos I'm not going to make the excuse that the mean old judge had it out for my dog because he was a Rottweiler.


----------



## Lalit Dukkipati (May 24, 2011)

Keith Jenkins said:


> My grandpa always used to say if you didn't get your feelings hurt once in a while you wouldn't know what they were for....
> 
> Since you don't like sarcasm how about this?...I don't necessarily equate someone speaking with a foreign accent as automatically being the gospel. Was that clear enough? While you, Nuebrand and Raiser are certainly entitled to your opinions so am I and I'm not going to cry a river and try an blame a sport on the inability of a Rottweiler to perform at a V level. If i walk on the trial field and my dog bolos I'm not going to make the excuse that the mean old judge had it out for my dog because he was a Rottweiler.


Never asked you to agree with me or Raiser just because someone has a foreign accent . You have every right to have your own opinion just as much anyone . I do not have a problem with your opinion . 

Raiser ( he is not a Rottweiler person ) Neubrand ( yes he is , but only pointed out a breed trait difference being taken into consideration ) . Also , I am not a fan of Neubrand kennel dogs (Sporty show dogs) even though they may have bred some strong dogs a long time ago . Only was trying to say , he knows the breed . I was acknowledging his breed knowledge , even though his breeding motivations are different than a working rottweiler person's needs . 

And Raiser , he's not even a Rottweiler enthusiast . He just pointed out the breed traits like low thresholds in a certain breed and he used the Rottweiler to compare as an example . Certainly , that is not any downplay of any breed and the sport or an excuse for lack of perfomance of the GSD or the Rottweiler . They didn't have a problem with mean old judges and only expressed their views about taking into account of the breed traits while judging . 

The Malinois may be is somewhat more closer to his breed GSD genetically than the Rottweiler .
I am only speaking of breed trait differences . The KNPV , NVBK and IPO all have good dogs and to some extent their respective sports influence their breeding .

To conclude , nobody can have any problem with your opinion or anyone else's as everybody is an individual with their thoughts.

Regards,
Lalit


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Lalit, I dont think anyone bullied you or even much said anything about what you actually said.

For example, lets say I took a quote from a Rottweiler forum and posted it here...

something like this:
*
"Keith Jenkins says this, (insert whatever you like in here, or link to discussion)..."*

Then you say:

*"That is complete and utter bullshit, bullshit I tell you! "*

I can't imagine feeling slighted in the least, on a personal level, because you failed to agree with the opinions of Keith ande thought they were wrong.

I would assume that you did not agree with Keith's opinion that I posted, not that you were bullying me.

This is interesting thread for study.

You expressed the opinions of other people, and some people disagreed with those opinions.

what went wrong?

who said what that offended who?

who is a bully?


----------



## Keith Jenkins (Jun 6, 2007)

I never commented until you brought up Nuebrand and his interview where he pretty much wants to blame the sport and the helpers because the Rottweiler can't compete with Mals and GSDs on the big stage. To me that's an piss poor excuse and I don't care how long he's been around. When that didn't work then you threw Raiser in the mix, I guess you figured his name would carry more weight. I worked with the guy who translated the book Der Schutzhund for like 4-5 years so I know all about his credentials.

My point is the sport is not asking the Rottweiler owner to do any exercise that any other breed is not required to do.


----------



## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> nah...sarcasm can be humorous,


----------



## Amy Swaby (Jul 16, 2008)

For working I like the Hexental kennel
http://hexental.be/
I've always liked his dogs. As for the working rottweiler I simply think it's a lack of understanding how to get what you want from certain dogs. I have no want nor need to compete at an international level, I'm not the kind of person that's targeted towards period. 

Does my dog perform? Yes, is it the level to which i expect and need? Yes

I trully believe too many peope are caught up in "well if there are no -insert breed- competing internationally then why bother" Because for some people it's the sport that draws them and for others it's a specific love of the BREED itself. I really can't understand however how many times this topic comes up and how the same arguments happen every single time. 

Simple if you love the sport that's cool if you love a certain breed that's also cool. I myself love the rottweiler and I've never had a problem finding dogs that perform. It's simply a matter of not being lazy and doing your groundwork to find a breeder producing dogs you'll enjoy. I mean I live in Savannah GA it's not like we're the height of sort/working dog breeding down here. The Bahamas where I'm from, even less so.


----------



## Amy Swaby (Jul 16, 2008)

Also as a side note lets not confuse sarcasm for being facetious. 

http://thecommonparlance.blogspot.com/2007/10/facetious-v-sarcastic.html


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Amy Swaby said:


> Also as a side note lets not confuse sarcasm for being facetious.
> 
> http://thecommonparlance.blogspot.com/2007/10/facetious-v-sarcastic.html


yes..  LOL

http://jackiewasjustwondering.blogspot.com/2011/01/sarcasm-guide-for-passive-aggressive.html


----------



## Lalit Dukkipati (May 24, 2011)

Alls right , I didn't say somebody bullied me . I said I wouldn't like to be an internet bully .If you feel that I implied that someone's being a bully , that's your opinion . I used the word " bully" in general .


As for getting something out of dogs , I am pretty aware of that and that is a different topic and I am pretty sure I understand the dogs I worked or trained at least .

If you do not feel that my interpretation of the posts were correct , again, that is your perception . I do not mind or won't say that it is wrong . 

If you do not feel that what i wrote is misguided thinking , I am cool with that and even willing to apologise if that makes it appropriate.

If you feel I am being silly , that's all right too . May be I am . 

I would like to end this here as I am of the minority opinion here and do not exactly prefer to be ganged upon on the account of me being silly or being a misguided soul .



Lalit









Joby Becker said:


> Lalit, I dont think anyone bullied you or even much said anything about what you actually said.
> 
> For example, lets say I took a quote from a Rottweiler forum and posted it here...
> 
> ...


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Lalit,

I dont disagree with your opinions at all, I did not see where you gave any real opinion on the subject that lead to the disagreements. You said you read this, and heard that...but did not give your own opinion.

I agree with all of the opinions you have stated as your own on the subject.

cheers


----------

