# Stupid Problem



## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

I wrote about this once before and received suggestions.

When my male Dutchie is heeling I can't get him to raise his ears upright no matter what I've tried.

I hate when he has his ears pinned back against his head.

The second I stop and he sits, his ears immediately are upright.

My female's ears are erect all the time no matter what training exercise I do with her.

I tried all kinds of rewards to no avail.

Any new suggestions??


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

If his ears are upright on a sit - try going from there with one step and halt - reward - one step - reward, etc. and reward each time, then step it up to 2 steps, and so on. Do stationary right turns, left turns - take a side step and when he lines up - reward. Take exaggeratedly slow steps - maybe raise your knees and reward until you can eventually get him into a heeling round. I guess he feels your abjection facing his abjection. Finish when his ears are upright. 

I hate laid back ears - my older dog does this but is an SOB and tries the same trick on again.

The younger one has his ears up all the time but once told - obeys.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Lee H Sternberg said:


> I wrote about this once before and received suggestions.
> 
> When my male Dutchie is heeling I can't get him to raise his ears upright no matter what I've tried.
> 
> ...


Lee, is your dog very focused in heeling? A dog that is totally focused and high in drive (brain off) will have laid backs ears, a dog more alert will have upright ears (brain on). Watch courage test videos. The dogs come in hard and fast and their ears are laid back. When they get close to the decoy they slow and ears come up.

I'm inferring that your dog understand that when heeling, he will have to stop and sit before reward or a bite.

If I am right, training transports and mixing up your handling patterns will solve it.


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## Julie Kinsey (Feb 10, 2008)

Lee H Sternberg said:


> I wrote about this once before and received suggestions.
> 
> When my male Dutchie is heeling I can't get him to raise his ears upright no matter what I've tried.
> 
> ...


I suspect you have focused more reinforcement on the sit in heel than on the moving part, but have a similar experience I will share with you.

I have a young dog from the kennel who ended up with me due to the breeder's having had multiple back surgeries. She has some pretty severe faults along with some excellent qualities. One of the things I hate about her are her bat ears,, which are really undesirable in my breed. They weren't cropped when it became evident she wasn't going to be shown in the breed ring. I have taught her body part targeting, including her ears, and have also named the positions of ears up and ears back, which is the one I notice, draw attention to, and reinforce (with verbal bridging) whenever it happens. For the most part, except in (high) alert situations, she now tends to carry them back, making her look more like her breed and less like a small, naked coyote.

Here's a brief clip of Kayce teaching body parts to an Irish Setter:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZeDYOJORq8I&feature=related

Julie Kinsey


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Gillian Schuler said:


> If his ears are upright on a sit - try going from there with one step and halt - reward - one step - reward, etc. and reward each time, then step it up to 2 steps, and so on. Do stationary right turns, left turns - take a side step and when he lines up - reward. Take exaggeratedly slow steps - maybe raise your knees and reward until you can eventually get him into a heeling round. I guess he feels your abjection facing his abjection. Finish when his ears are upright.
> 
> I hate laid back ears - my older dog does this but is an SOB and tries the same trick on again.
> 
> The younger one has his ears up all the time but once told - obeys.


I have tried this but not to the extent you are talking about. I will get more patient with this to see if I can solve it this way.


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Anne Vaini said:


> Lee, is your dog very focused in heeling? A dog that is totally focused and high in drive (brain off) will have laid backs ears, a dog more alert will have upright ears (brain on). Watch courage test videos. The dogs come in hard and fast and their ears are laid back. When they get close to the decoy they slow and ears come up.
> 
> I'm inferring that your dog understand that when heeling, he will have to stop and sit before reward or a bite.
> 
> If I am right, training transports and mixing up your handling patterns will solve it.


This might be my fault. From the time he was 6 month old I threw lots of distractions at him on heel. Between "watch me" and tons of distractions with a young dog, it seems to me like he is concentrating too much on heel. When he sits it's his time too relax. Thank you for the thoughts.


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Julie Kinsey said:


> I suspect you have focused more reinforcement on the sit in heel than on the moving part, but have a similar experience I will share with you.
> 
> I have a young dog from the kennel who ended up with me due to the breeder's having had multiple back surgeries. She has some pretty severe faults along with some excellent qualities. One of the things I hate about her are her bat ears,, which are really undesirable in my breed. They weren't cropped when it became evident she wasn't going to be shown in the breed ring. I have taught her body part targeting, including her ears, and have also named the positions of ears up and ears back, which is the one I notice, draw attention to, and reinforce (with verbal bridging) whenever it happens. For the most part, except in (high) alert situations, she now tends to carry them back, making her look more like her breed and less like a small, naked coyote.
> 
> ...


Very interesting. If I can't cure this easy I will be naming body parts. Thanks.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Lee H Sternberg said:


> This might be my fault. From the time he was 6 month old I threw lots of distractions at him on heel. Between "watch me" and tons of distractions with a young dog, it seems to me like he is concentrating too much on heel. When he sits it's his time too relax. Thank you for the thoughts.


Concentrating? Or zoned out? :lol: I'd love to see video of the behavior and different training things you try. 

I think that in any case, cinching up your definition of the behavior to include the ears will work. Capture it, mark and reward. How you get the dog to offer the behavior so that you can capture it is the trick.


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Anne Vaini said:


> Concentrating? Or zoned out? :lol: I'd love to see video of the behavior and different training things you try.
> 
> I think that in any case, cinching up your definition of the behavior to include the ears will work. Capture it, mark and reward. How you get the dog to offer the behavior so that you can capture it is the trick.


Concentrating I'm sure. I think I do too many quick maneuvers for him to be zoned out.


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Gillian - I tried. Starting from a sit I can't even lift my foot to take the first step. As soon as I lift my foot the ears go back. I tried from a stand, same thing. 

I'll try a few more times. ](*,)


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## Julie Ann Alvarez (Aug 4, 2007)

Lee just curious how he was tought to heel? Did you use food or toys- pinch etc?

I also would like to see a video clip. Just so I can see your body language as well as the dog.

Julie


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## Mo Earle (Mar 1, 2008)

_"Lee, is your dog very focused in heeling? A dog that is *totally focused and high in drive (brain off) will have laid backs ears, a dog more alert will have upright ears (brain on)*. Watch courage test videos. The dogs *come in hard and fast and their ears are laid back*. When they get* close to the decoy they slow and ears come up.*_"

Lee, I think Anne explained this perfectly....I would also ask yourself now...why is the dog so focused-is he anticipating a correction...does he HATE heeling #-o#-o....simple solution....try making it fun, change pace, change direction, do quick stops, starts, lots of praise, mix it up-bet you will see a change...see if you can jog that doggies brain...and using Anne's analogy...when the dog is coming closer to the decoy-the ears come up...WHY?...well, they are about to have the time of their life..they are going to get to bite...and that is something FUN.... so now do the same with your heeling...do not make it ho hum, I got to heel again, if I don't my neck is going to get cranked and he is going to say..fooos, heel, blah blah blah...think like a dog!! and now go make it fun!! Mo


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Julie Ann Alvarez said:


> Lee just curious how he was tought to heel? Did you use food or toys- pinch etc?
> 
> I also would like to see a video clip. Just so I can see your body language as well as the dog.
> 
> Julie


I will see what I can do about a video. I'm still stone age with computer stuff. He was trained with everything, pinch, ecollar and motivational. I haven't used much compulsion for a long time now. 

This boy had a ecollar on at 6 months due to "happy" handler aggression. By that I mean he thought biting my ass was a blast. That's been over for a long time.

His only compulsion for months on heel exercise has been a occasional ecollar page for failing to watch me.

I used mostly food rewards for months. Trying to get the ears up I used toys, balls and even a whistle.


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Mo - I think he enjoys going places. He is a social butterfly. We do heel exercises all over town. I rarely do heel exercises at home. I will try to liven it up. He always jumps out of the truck raring to go.


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## Emilio Rodriguez (Jan 16, 2009)

Lee, when you say the dog has his ears back when heeling do you mean during a short training session on a field or a lengthy walk everywhere?


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Emilio Rodriguez said:


> Lee, when you say the dog has his ears back when heeling do you mean during a short training session on a field or a lengthy walk everywhere?


It's amazing that you brought that up. That was one of the things I was going to try. We haven't been on a long walk for a long time.

We've had a tough winter, 9-10 feet of snow with very few thaws.That made excuses easy. All the trails around the lake still have lots of snow, sidewalks not shoveled blah, blah.

It's been Chuck It ball playing and short heel sessions in the street for a long time now. 

I am ready for a lengthy walk to see his reaction.


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Hi Lee,

Just for giggles, get a mouse "squeaker". The kind you find for hunting predators to bring them in when they get close, but not close enough. Its a very small item, about the size of a golf ball. Do the heel work and squeak it one time. When the ears go up you can mark it. The squeaker is small enough to fit in the mouth. 

The sound the squeaker makes really turns on a predator. The predator uses its ears when no other sense is utilized. The ears will go up to figure out where the noise is coming from. Use a different cadence on the squeaker to keep the dog focused on waiting for the interesting sound. Hopefully the dog will relax a bit with the slicked back ears. Just a thought if the long walks don't work.

Howard


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## Emilio Rodriguez (Jan 16, 2009)

Lee, I almost never obedience train my dog in the same location. My training consists of walking wherever I normally walk with the dog. Sometimes when I want to practice with the dog I drive somewhere different, take the dog out of the car, go for a walk in a completely new area doing obedience exercises as I go and then back to the car and home. Part of the training is many free breaks where he gets to sniff stuff and pee. Then back to heeling and sit, down, stay etc. Just the practical stuff. I too don't like the ears back. The dog looks uptight with the ears back. However I don't care about the ears forward. I want the dog to appear relaxed/neutral almost bored. When he's faced with a strong distraction the ears go plenty forward but I still have the obedience.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Lee H Sternberg said:


> I will see what I can do about a video. I'm still stone age with computer stuff. He was trained with everything, pinch, ecollar and motivational. I haven't used much compulsion for a long time now.
> 
> This boy had a ecollar on at 6 months due to "happy" handler aggression. By that I mean he thought biting my ass was a blast. That's been over for a long time.
> 
> ...


Hey, I've been here too and not proud of the fact.

The dog has either been psychologically or physically dominated too much at a young age, maybe both.


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

I would do obedience through protection. Always seems to perk up the attitude of the flat looking OB dogs. May do the same for his ears.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Good point about the long walks. Take time out to just enjoy the walks. No commands, no corrections! Just have a good time!
To much training can bore the dog.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Lee H Sternberg said:


> Gillian - I tried. Starting from a sit I can't even lift my foot to take the first step. As soon as I lift my foot the ears go back. I tried from a stand, same thing.
> 
> I'll try a few more times. ](*,)


Peg him to the clothes line by his ears overnight..........

Seriously, you could of course, do the eye contact on the spot with him in heeling position. When you say heel and he looks up reward him (Howard K's idea of a mouse "squeak" is good for this). Just do this 3-4 times maybe and then release him with a ball, kong or whatever and tug or play with him. I would also tug with him before you start "heeling" to get him into the mood.

You can speed up the process by doing it 2-3 times a day. Sometimes doing it in the house or back yard will help or before you take him outside or out of the kennel.

Once this "works" maybe move your right foot and twist to the right slightly, and so on until you can make a right turn

Sometimes if compulsion is used, it's stopped before it's worked, leaving the dog in no man's land. A pinch collar can be useful to make him look up and reward immediately.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

This Is What You Are Worried About, And Will Waste Good Training Time On ????????

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaahahahahahahhaahahahahhahahahahahahahahaha


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Thanks everyone for these suggestions. I have a lot of ideas to try. Please understand the ear issue only happens with heel exercises.

His ears are erect with all other obedience.

I was going to just forget the whole ear thing. I decided to give it one last effort and open a thread on it.

I never expected as much help as I received.

Maybe everyone is so sick of hearing about my antisocial female they jumped all over this.:lol:

I will let everyone know how a did after a couple of weeks.


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> This Is What You Are Worried About, And Will Waste Good Training Time On ????????
> 
> Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaahahahahahahhaahahahahhahahahahahahahahaha



Like I said Jeff, it's been a long winter. CABIN FEVER!:smile:


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I don't miss snow at all. Not even the slightest bit.


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I don't miss snow at all. Not even the slightest bit.


It will all be over for me in June. I will be swimming at a quiet beach and sipping "cool ones" with these dogs. Maybe the pinned back ears will help keep the beach sand out! :smile:


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Nice, they keep up this foolishness with taking away our right to own a dog, and I am considering joining you.


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Nice, they keep up this foolishness with taking away our right to own a dog, and I am considering joining you.


PETA would get laughed right out of that country. \\/


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Lee H Sternberg said:


> PETA would get laughed right out of that country. \\/


Might be a good source of raw for your dog's Lee! :-o :wink:


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> Might be a good source of raw for your dog's Lee! :-o :wink:



I rather get PETA started pissing and moaning about the age old local tradition of poisoning unchained dogs on garbage collection day. That would make them real popular.

Everyone in the cities chains their dogs up so they don't get poisoned getting into trash. People don't care much for cleaning up trash once it's set out. There are no garbage disposals and no one puts toilet paper in the small septic systems.

Strays don't last long there.


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## Mo Earle (Mar 1, 2008)

_"People don't care much for cleaning up trash once it's set out. There are no garbage disposals and no one puts toilet paper in the small septic systems."

_sounds great-:-#


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Mo Earle said:


> _"People don't care much for cleaning up trash once it's set out. There are no garbage disposals and no one puts toilet paper in the small septic systems."
> 
> _sounds great-:-#


Hard to believe isn't it. There are no sewer systems, even in large cities. The lots are postage stamp size and can't handle TP because the septic systems are so small. The hotels etc have larger system so the is no need to do that.

There is always a waste paper basket next to the toilet for guess what?

When we have visitors from there we always explain there is no need to do that here. :razz:

Sometimes they forget. Old habits die hard. :roll:


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## Emilio Rodriguez (Jan 16, 2009)

I know exactly what you're talking about. Do they ask you for newspaper too? LOL


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Newspaper leaves ink stains.


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Emilio Rodriguez said:


> I know exactly what you're talking about. Do they ask you for newspaper too? LOL


No, but my in laws GROOVE on all the advertising inserts when they are here.\\/


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