# Mixed Breed Bandogs



## UncleBen (Sep 3, 2021)

Any opinions on the following crossbreeds
Bred using arteficial insemination with a large breed female and smaller breed male

-APBT gamebred x caucasian shepherd (working line)
-Patterdale (working line) x Fila Brasileiro (working line)
-Mixes with dogs these combinations and KNPV bloodline Malinois or Canarian bloodline Presa Canario.

How would the mixes do as personal protection or guard dog??


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## nik123 (Aug 23, 2021)

UncleBen said:


> Any opinions on the following crossbreeds
> Bred using arteficial insemination with a large breed female and smaller breed male
> 
> -APBT gamebred x caucasian shepherd (working line)
> ...


Dogs function through instincts inherited from wolfs (protect teritory, protect pack ,stalk prey, chase ,kill ,dismember and feed). We have shaped breeds by manipulating these instincts- toning some down and exaggerating the others according to our needs. In a way like cars have engine that drives them and brakes with which we control the engine.
Mixing breeds with similar traits will give predictable results, while mixing dogs with oposite traits might give you race car with faulty brakes.
Caucassians are livestock guardians-very human agressive, territorial, not very trainable or biddable. On the other side they have low hunting instict and are relatively indifferent to environmental stimulation outside its territory or in non threatening situations. 
Pit bull is oposite to that. Not overly bound to its territory, not too human agressive , strong chase -pounce instinct and exagerrated kill drive.
You could get dogs that are liability for unprovoked human attacks with strong kill instict factor.
Same with other combination. Fila does have hunt drive but kill drive has been removed.
KNPV Mals ang Dutchies have already been outcrossed with Pitbulls and other breeds and absorbed what they had to offer to a great extent.
You could possibly get good results if you had high quality specimens of all these breeds, produce number of litters and cull everything you dont like.


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## UncleBen (Sep 3, 2021)

nik123 said:


> Dogs function through instincts inherited from wolfs (protect teritory, protect pack ,stalk prey, chase ,kill ,dismember and feed). We have shaped breeds by manipulating these instincts- toning some down and exaggerating the others according to our needs. In a way like cars have engine that drives them and brakes with which we control the engine.
> Mixing breeds with similar traits will give predictable results, while mixing dogs with oposite traits might give you race car with faulty brakes.
> Caucassians are livestock guardians-very human agressive, territorial, not very trainable or biddable. On the other side they have low hunting instict and are relatively indifferent to environmental stimulation outside its territory or in non threatening situations.
> Pit bull is oposite to that. Not overly bound to its territory, not too human agressive , strong chase -pounce instinct and exagerrated kill drive.
> ...


Couldn't agree more,
Not all the pups would have the desired traits, they might have undesired traits from both breeds, so the pick from the litter is important.
And of course I would go for the best specimens of the breed.😉


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## nicolaibolverk (12 mo ago)

I like yourideas


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## Kirsten Fitzgerald (May 23, 2014)

My experience with Personal Protection Dogs says its less about the breeds than the individual dogs chosen.

With cross breeding, yes there can be a very wide range of diversity in traits displayed, but as long as selection for desired traits are consistent across breeds, Those traits at least should attain reliability, though NOT predictability or consistency in their manifestation. 

Culling can be lessened if the claim of specific trait selection can be substantiated, and is then demonstrated reliable. 
Learning to 'read' and assess pups accurately is then aimed more at matching pups to homes suitable, based on the _other _traits in evidence to buyers experience and needs.


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## Omerhaus (Mar 18, 2021)

Kirsten Fitzgerald said:


> My experience with Personal Protection Dogs says its less about the breeds than the individual dogs chosen.
> 
> With cross breeding, yes there can be a very wide range of diversity in traits displayed, but as long as selection for desired traits are consistent across breeds, Those traits at least should attain reliability, though NOT predictability or consistency in their manifestation.
> 
> ...





UncleBen said:


> Any opinions on the following crossbreeds
> Bred using arteficial insemination with a large breed female and smaller breed male
> 
> -APBT gamebred x caucasian shepherd (working line)
> ...


A guard dog and a PP have very different traits.


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## nicolaibolverk (12 mo ago)

I have been breeding hybrid home defense/area exclusion dogs for years. originaly to keep mmyself in dogs of a quality and fierceness that I couldn't afford to buy, and progressing to desireing to improve said dogs thru stratigeic cross breedoing , thentesting/selection followed by inbreeding to fix traits. I find that you can find suitable breeding material by takin in easy biting or dominant confident alpha types whose owners couldn't control them. In those days I'd soon find out if the dog would fight beside me, or engage tresspassers/thieves.
I was inspired by by the men who made the dogo , and the presa , and guys who built the co..
I always thought dogs should be aloyt more formidable and aggressive than what I had seen( !`and my dad had gsds, my aunt had dobys).. my early ideas involved "perfectt breed " mixs , and quick solutions generatig final product in f1..
as it turned out, you can also use the practical method outlined above. 
I think there's pups on hoobly that's f1 cross co x Camelot working pit if your looking totry themixthe mix .
if i were closer geographically I'd give one a chance to earn a place in thepack.
I have inmycurrent young adults I have a mix of apbt(heavy eli), blue heeler, greatdane , and neo; and I would be hard pressed to find better dogs to exclude strangers from my land. After producing this crop by half sibling inbreeding i wanted new blood that wouldn't water down there temperment. temperament. for the first time in fifteen years i purchased a dog, a 6 month old presa canario(rucaden/ ironbull/linea m).i also cosidered a abull and a fila but didn't want to import one, and hard confisent and healthy filas are only produced by a handfuhandful of breadersdomestic)y. In the end the presas physique offered more survivability to combas t traumas, and I went with that.

I want to see that paterdale x fila....talk about temperament !


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## Kirsten Fitzgerald (May 23, 2014)

Omerhaus said:


> A guard dog and a PP have very different traits.


Could you expand on that?

I don't see the two as mutually exclusive in any way, though situation/requirements will vary and dogs used exclusively for guard duties may have little other expectation placed in them.


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## Omerhaus (Mar 18, 2021)

Kirsten Fitzgerald said:


> Could you expand on that?
> 
> I don't see the two as mutually exclusive in any way, though situation/requirements will vary and dogs used exclusively for guard duties may have little other expectation placed in them.


A guard dog/perimeter dog/property protection dog does not need the discernment that a PP dog needs. They typically do their job when the handler is not present. They basically need high aggression and good enough nerves to fight a person. A PP needs to be social enough that he can safely be around other people, even off leash and remain neutral unless commanded to bite or recognized a true threat and reacts, while still having aggression and very good nerves. To me two very different type of dogs with really good PP dogs having many more desirable traits than a guard dog. I see both having limited utility due to being neutralized by a gun. A PP dog might buy you a little time to arm yourself if you’re not armed. I believe robotic “dogs” that are armed and can be remotely activated to fire will replace many military/police dogs except for scent work, at least for a while.


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## Kirsten Fitzgerald (May 23, 2014)

Yes, I see the separation of tasks in your description and agree a P.P needs many more desirable traits.
The description of P.P/guard dog could be misleading if the Personal Protection aspect is only in guarding the area from trespass.

Thank you @Omerhaus. A distinction worth making.

A good P.P dog though, could double as guard dog. At least my own have in that no one but family or friends with that status were permitted access to the house or yard without invitation for each. Warning was given to visitors until I got there. I could talk over the fence with no aggression shown, unless the person tried to enter with out that invitation. If the person entered the yard on invitation, again no aggression unless given. Walking to the house, The dogs would keep visitors out of there too, If I either shut the door or asked visitors to stay out.
These dogs served multiple functions on our farm including live stock protection when stock were close to the house and yarded. Vermin control and more.
Guns are much less a problem here in those scenarios, and a robotic dog would give far less utility than a great P.P dog in the right situation for its abilities of response!

So perhaps stick to guard dog description, or P.P only, if that distinction plays a major part in selection.


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## Omerhaus (Mar 18, 2021)

Kirsten Fitzgerald said:


> Yes, I see the separation of tasks in your description and agree a P.P needs many more desirable traits.
> The description of P.P/guard dog could be misleading if the Personal Protection aspect is only in guarding the area from trespass.
> 
> Thank you @Omerhaus. A distinction worth making.
> ...


I don’t disagree with anything you are saying, I’d say a good PP dog or even certain sport dogs can display territorial aggression that is very convincing and can be backed up. I make a distinction between territorial aggression and barrier aggression with the later largely being posturing with no intent. Dogs used specifically as guard dogs are/were typically dropped of at a business at closing time and would bite or prevent trespassers and only their handlers could pick them up the next morning. I don’t think there is a large market for those dogs anymore due to technology and liability issues. I was referring to robotic dogs likely being used increasingly in LE and the military due to them being more of a non civilian deterrent.


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