# Old Dog Imprinting



## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

How many folks use or have used older more seasoned dogs for the imprinting work of puppies or young dogs? This is something I have done with Labs and is often done in our area. Venue and outcome found..


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## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

We never do that. We prefer a pup to be independent.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

When it comes to just the basic manners I've always used an older dog. Very little actual "training" is needed with the pup then.
Recall is just one time I use it. If a pup is running with an older dog I call the older dog and the pup automatically comes. 
Once the pup starts understanding the word I call the pup when it's by itself. 
Just one of the ways I start basic recall. The pup just picks it up without actual "training"
Letting a pup watch an older dog fetch can also build it's desire to do the same. 
Not rushing an open gate is another. The older dogs stop when I open the gate and the pup honors that buy holding back.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

I can remember taking them out to go potty with an older dog a time or two but other than that my puppies have very little interaction with the other dogs the first 6 months or so. I take them out and work with them individually. I don't want them dog dependent or focused either. 

Terrasita


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> I can remember taking them out to go potty with an older dog a time or two but other than that my puppies have very little interaction with the other dogs the first 6 months or so. I take them out and work with them individually. I don't want them dog dependent or focused either.
> 
> Terrasita


Same here. I did let the Fila run with the Briard when he was a pup but we soon saw the error of our ways. His respect for the Briard was "after you Sir" and if we called him whilst he was chasing around the woods, he'd run to the Briard and lay down by him. 

Must say though, these two could be in the car together without dividing board, could be left at home together and this for 13,5 years.

The second two had to be partly separated - age difference 14 months as above. No. 1 thought he could eliminate No. 2 (or looked as if he wanted to). 

We now have peace - it's not 100% but good enough. We separate them when we are out for lengthy periods. 

I take them out separately - have more fun this way and training is easier and each dog presents itself as it is and without being influenced by the other.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

When doing water work with Labs, like Bob said, it is the easiest teacher. No pressure and no real teaching.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

I have always used older dogs for teaching young dogs. I was asked recently how I could hunt the dogs that didn't want me to touch them. I didn't answer at the time but the answer is "older dogs". The young ones learn how to handle dangerous game, load up, and just about everything else from the older dogs. Most importantly, they learn how to behave with dogs from older dogs that already know. It has always seemed strange to me that many trainers don't want pups exposed to other dogs because "they start acting like dogs". They are dogs. All the old training methods were geared to training "dogs" I was under the impression that is why they called it "dog training". I mention this because most trainers I have sent dogs to wanted them at six weeks to minimized their assocciation with my other dogs simply because they are easier to train if they don't fully realize they are dogs. LOL


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## Lynn Cheffins (Jul 11, 2006)

I think pretty much always done with sled dogs - dog pick up the drill faster that way.


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## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

I suppose it may work for hunting or sled dogs as they work in a pack, but for ring it certainly is not good. 
I want a young dog to focus on me in stead of concentrating on another dog.


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## David Feliciano (Oct 31, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> When it comes to just the basic manners I've always used an older dog. Very little actual "training" is needed with the pup then.
> Recall is just one time I use it. If a pup is running with an older dog I call the older dog and the pup automatically comes.
> Once the pup starts understanding the word I call the pup when it's by itself.
> Just one of the ways I start basic recall. The pup just picks it up without actual "training"
> ...


I agree with Bob. NOTHING beats a sound bitch at teaching a pup some manners. I find this to be a rare quality in mali bitches though. Too many are either too easy going (let the pups do whatever) or too bitchy (squelch the pup). I'm not talking about puppies with the mother either. I mean running young dogs in a group with an older bitch.


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## Denise Gatlin (Dec 28, 2009)

Works well teaching pups herding and reading stock from older working dogs on ranches.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Martine,

That's it. They work with other dogs to accomplish the job. Ours work with the handler. Its not so that they won't be a dog and mine get along fine with other dogs. I set stock for trials and that generally calls for my dog to work the pens and often in the same pen with one of my club members aussies or BCs and they do just fine. I've seen stock dogs that grew up working with another dog and they become dependent and won't work without that other dog. Stock dogs are worked in groups or brace a lot of times but they don't have the dependence. Even with minimizing the involvement with the other dogs while I'm bonding with the puppy and raising it doesn't cause problems. 

Terrasita


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Trials of any kind are not the same as actual field work. Dogs bred to do the work on a working ranch need no more than to be told what to do and they do it. The don't have to do it in any particular style that someone thinks looks pretty. They get the job done and don't do it for show. That is the bottom line. Tony McCallums dogs are an example and maybe he will chime in if he sees this thread. How are you going to go out and teach a young dog what he has to learn with wild range cattle. You can't unless you want to die. Same with hunting dangerous game. You just can't walk up to a wild hog and show the pup what to do. That is what the intensive breeding is for.....dogs that can do it without all the training with no one holding their hand. One dog is usually the leader but there comes a time, you have to give the young dog his head once he knows the job and he will learn to be the leader over other youg dogs naturally if he has any business out there in the first place.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Instinct and just pure guts is one aspect of any stock work. I began with working dogs to manage a small farm with 100+ head of sheep, a small herd of cattle and ducks over 40 acres. It includes cow/calf pairs ewes/lambs and rams. It can be moving 100+ or 1. This is the test for my dogs. When we bring in the wicked calves and one goes nuts and the dog moves in to handle it--that isn't done with commands. You are relying on that you have selected a sound dog and you have instilled in them to bring you the stock. I work dogs with instinctive guard. They are always looking out for me. Some of my friends say theirs don't have that and they don't move in to guard/protect them against crazy stock. When I lose a flock of sheep in a nine acre pasture and my bitch tracks them and brings them in--that isn't done with commands. I trial minimally. The kind of dog I like and work isn't the best at placement robotics. Tony has another job/purpose with its own tests. If you are working dogs in groups the dogs instinctively take up certain positions to get the job done and they honor each other. The dogs will learn the job and do it but you are training and seasoning that dog through the young years. A lot of its instinct and even their bond with you. There are basically five to six basic commands with stock [flank, stop, walk/back, recall, etc.] Some people will use an older dog to hold the stock for the puppy out in the pasture. Ranch/stock work has become more sophisticated. You have the old way of the dog figuring out the job and just doing it with very little interaction from the farmer or you shot it. Now, you have all sorts of trainers out there that put the started work on the dog for the rancher. Some of them are showing up at our seminars to refine the dogs and get more efficient work out of them. The old way got the job done but the new way can enhance it. Purpose will define what you need in a dog. There are no absolutes. Some jobs or purposes can do just fine with the dogs learning from dogs. Others require something different. My husband met a guy that stopped to talk about one of his cars. Somehow the conversation turned to "my wife works stock dogs." The guy had an ACD that managed his bulls. He was tickled to death when I started talking about what we trained in terms of being able to direct the work. He admitted that she got the job done but certain things would work alot better if he had some input into it. 

Terrasita


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

My observations are made from what I do and I am sure yours are also. I was going more by "I set stock for trials". I didn't realise you did this when you owned all these sheep and calves and had them on hand 24/7 to teach your dogs. 

I know for a fact that in fur trials, most of the top name dogs are crap in the field but, they have been bred for trials and have learned the game because the set up is always pretty much the same. In the field, it is never the same.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Don,

I live in the city. My 24/7 has been when I babysit the farm over a several day period. I have an outlet for my dogs that a lot of people dont. I trained them with doing all of the chores--feed, sort, chutes for doctoring, holding for doctoring, shedding them off, moving from pasture to pasture, load/unload trailers etc. I also break stock for trials and that has included cattle. I've had cows come off the trailer and think kill the handler and the dog. I've had three rams attack a dog and dealt with the mama cows. This is just the small farm setting and there are risks for you and the dog. Intervene at the wrong time and you get you and the dog nailed. For Tony, I'm sure this multiplied several notches. The trouble is the more I want to trial, the less I do with the breaking and chores with the trial dog. It ruins them for robotics. At this point, I'm not doing much with the cattle. I figure my bouv only has so many lives. She's a control freak with a lot of fight drive. Even well trained chore dogs are still accustomed to working with independence rather than put a paw here and put a paw there regardless of whether the sheep are technically out of control. I kept thinking as long as I worked my chore dog with the precision required for the trials that they could cross over. They could in ASCA and AHBA--not so with AKC. The big hats keep telling me I'm beating my head against the wall. Its two different things. One of the guys with bouvs uses her to manage 100+ head of commercial woolie ewes. After powering her down for AKC, she didn't return to the chores with the power she needed. Its the same with screwing down a dog used on cows for light sheep and what you get when you return to cattle. 

There is real work where you rely on training and response to command. Each venue has its own set of tests and requirements. The police officers rely on training and conditioning in all phases of the work. Its not just reliance on instinct. 

But back to the running with dogs and learning from dogs. At the end of the day, the BC folks can always turn their dogs loose to run with other BCs and frap for the frisbee. Most that I know live in kennels. But for the training and work and this includes the ranchers in the club, they train them as singles although they may work up to five dogs at a time. When they are working them as groups, they are even commanding them as singles. They do a lot of brainstorming to train them on different commands and whistles so they can work them together. AKC is arguably about style and show. AHBA is about getting the task done efficiently. I was in a ranch trial where a sheep with horns was running at me head high. I had left my dog further down the alleyway on a stay to take the pressure off while I wen to the gate. I stepped to the side and told her to speak to it which is my command for a grip. She came through to stop it just in time. The alley way was really narrow and I had no where to go. Don't be so sure its about pretty and style in stock dog trials and just someone trials doesn't mean they are limited to just that. I've seen dogs kicked unconscious and lame from taking a hit and that was in AKC. 

I think with work with dogs working in packs, as you all have mentioned with hunting and sledding, the dogs can pick up things from the other dogs. But for some other jobs/venues, you don't want the dog pack mentality.

T


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

T, I can definitely see your point and why people have different objectives with a dog or a group of dogs. I worked on a 5,000 acre cattle ranch for 17 years here but never worked with the cattle. I did watch the start young dogs here with older dogs but they were started on cattle and the older dogs always seemed to sense when the younger one was in over it's head and was there to handle things. These dogs are used to run the cattle out of the brush but, they are more docile that what Tony has. The herdsman's wife had a few sheep and was training her bouvier to herd. I was doing fabrication in the shop and herd her screaming to high heaven at there house. I rushed over there only to see the bouv rounding up her lambs and putting them in one place....rounding them up one piece at a time. Quite a mess and she lost several lambs that day. Could have avoided that with a well trained dog with the bouv at a younger age.

I can't have a dependent dog looking to me for instruction because he won't live long if he isn't paying attention to business.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> . Quite a mess and she lost several lambs that day. Could have avoided that with a well trained dog with the bouv at a younger age.
> 
> Uhhhh Don, I'm not sure with other dogs but this doesn't work with bouvs. If mine would have paid a bit of attention to my trained dogs she wouldn't have killed so many of my ducks when she was younger. She also didn't honor my older dogs because she was a ladder climber from day 1.
> 
> I can't have a dependent dog looking to me for instruction because he won't live long if he isn't paying attention to business.


Ditto. Its the same for me even with farm stock. I test the puppies for independence. I won't keep a handler dependent dog for stock work. If they are engaged with evil stock and they look back at me, they will take a hit. If they are so dependent and obedienced to death they won't be proactive to keep the stock from running off or worse keep them from running me over when I'm pouring feed. The handler can be a day late and dollar short for calling out commands and pay a huge price. I was taught very early not to intervene at the wrong time if my dog is engaged in a fight. If I screw up his timing, I can get him killed. Its hard to describe. Its a balance and very much a partnership with a seasoned dog. It took me a long time to realize I was selecting against what you see as the point dogs in AKC arena trials. 

T


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## Butch Cappel (Aug 12, 2007)

I started out watching Blue Tick hounds run ***** with a few pups tagging along to learn. I moved on to herding dogs, with experience, teaching young pups. After meeting Gotfried Dildei I used experienced dogs to help pups in bitework. Doug Deacon showed me how to even use it in Obedience. It always worked, I just like things that work.

I have heard people say they don't want their dogs to get to be around other dogs more than them, in case they get more focused on other dogs than on them. 

I always wondered, "if the pup looks to the older dog, more than the human, does that mean the other dog is a better pack leader than they are?"


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Butch Cappel said:


> I started out watching Blue Tick hounds run ***** with a few pups tagging along to learn. I moved on to herding dogs, with experience, teaching young pups. After meeting Gotfried Dildei I used experienced dogs to help pups in bitework. Doug Deacon showed me how to even use it in Obedience. It always worked, I just like things that work.
> 
> I have heard people say they don't want their dogs to get to be around other dogs more than them, in case they get more focused on other dogs than on them.
> 
> I always wondered, "if the pup looks to the older dog, more than the human, does that mean the other dog is a better pack leader than they are?"


You will never get accepted into the "click" thinking like that Butch.....or is that supposed to be clique???


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## Ben Colbert (Mar 9, 2010)

Don Turnipseed said:


> You will never get accepted into the "click" thinking like that Butch.....or is that supposed to be clique???


Why do you say that?


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Could be because Don thinks click and clique go together?? Or could just be plain and simple bad spelling again :-D:-D.

I get what Terrasita says about not wanting the dog to function as a pack when she works the stock with them I think. Otherwise, I've found pups learn much quicker from the older dogs, I've never found pups as they became mature to be less focused on me because of it (gsds), quite the opposite. Regarding those who think their dogs who may become dog dependant if allowed to be a dog, I would think that could depend on whether the dog was not so independant to start with, or nothing much exciting going on with the handler, no ?


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Maggie, I don't think that the 2nd dog, as he gets older, will be less inclined to work with you, but as a rule, dog to dog when they are young and you have a "2" on the back of your t-shirt.

In our household, we are the bosses (at least we think we are)!! but dog will always interact with dog before interacting with a human. As far as I see, this is normal, but I do not want it.

It may cause more problems, dog to dog, but the dog to human element is better, as I see it.

I do know, that where we had our caravan in Wales on a farm, the young dog was coupled, literally, to an older experienced dog and this was how they did it.

The fox hound, JRT hound "Aufzucht" (?) is totally different from Sport dogs, police, service dogs etc. I know of an extremely competent dog handler whose seminar I visited who kept his pup away from other dogs, apart from the occasional interaction with a bitch and this was Walter Kreipl, a German handler who understood dogs well.

I guess if you want a dog to work "solely" for you, you will be his sparring partner and no dog or handler will replace you.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Gillian Schuler said:


> Same here. I did let the Fila run with the Briard when he was a pup but we soon saw the error of our ways. His respect for the Briard was "after you Sir" and if we called him whilst he was chasing around the woods, he'd run to the Briard and lay down by him.
> 
> Must say though, these two could be in the car together without dividing board, could be left at home together and this for 13,5 years.
> 
> ...


No. 2 suffers as a rule - No. 1 is not a problem


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## Butch Cappel (Aug 12, 2007)

Let's see Don,
I think it would be a"click" if the group had Positive only talk, followed with well timed liver-wurst sandwiches.

It would be a "clique" it there were several Frenchmen involved, or maybe just bad spelling as Maggie said. 

You could avoid confusion if I were not accepted by the "bunch"? There I go getting off topic, hope the bunch don't mind.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Huh! Me no understand! Even in English???


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## Butch Cappel (Aug 12, 2007)

Don says I wont be accepted by the
_Click _I refer to it as in "_click_er training" you know, like all positive........ lots of liver treats and all rewards. So a group of people that are a "click" are......? Oh well, Might have been a bit of a stretch.

Surely you understand the French group Clique? Except I think the Frenchman would pronounce it Cleekay, No?


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

_Cleekay, No?_

Non, Cleeek!


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Might have to be a dogman to understand the humor. Maybe not.


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## Butch Cappel (Aug 12, 2007)

Non Cleek! Love it!

Made my Day! Thanks I'll get on topic from here out...... I promise. Well, at least I'm pretty sure I will, probably.

Your starting some good stuff lately Don.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

maggie fraser said:


> Could be because Don thinks click and clique go together?? Or could just be plain and simple bad spelling again :-D:-D.
> 
> I get what Terrasita says about not wanting the dog to function as a pack when she works the stock with them I think. Otherwise, I've found pups learn much quicker from the older dogs, I've never found pups as they became mature to be less focused on me because of it (gsds), quite the opposite. Regarding those who think their dogs who may become dog dependant if allowed to be a dog, I would think that could depend on whether the dog was not so independant to start with, or nothing much exciting going on with the handler, no ?


Maggie,

Its really not that deep. My dogs mutually coexist but are primarily focused to me. They go out together are loose in the house together. Its rare for them to play with each other. There is a period of time when I raise the puppy that it has scheduled time with the adults and I've even picked certain adults to let them out in the yard with when I start doing that. If they are gonna model, let it be the strongest dog. The first few months though, its just kinda me and the puppy. They learn dog pack manners and they get LOTS of socialiazation out and about each week. I pick club members and friends dogs for them to be around on lead. I do my training in open air markets, stores, petsmart--anywhere I can get in with a dog. The finished product isn't dog aggressive and basically ignores dogs out in public. 


Its not a fear of the dog being dog dependent if you let it be a dog---whatever that is. I'll give a couple of examples. Khira's littermate went to those puppy classes. For 8 weeks, he went to frolic with other puppies. Then out socializing as a young dog, always allowed to play and engage dogs. As he moved to adulthood, this turned to wanting to dominate other dogs. Enter dog competitions. Yep you guessed it---interacting with other dogs. Not cute when it weighs 85 pounds and you have paid your entry fee. It has been a PITA his entire life and something she always has to work with. At 22 months, I walked Khira into a level 4 obedience class to heel in mill fashion with a group of dogs; do sits and downs with a group of dogs and while others were being recalled, off lead recalls with her and she ignored them. She can meet and greet but won't tolerate dominance vibes. 

The most extreme that I've seen is my friend's aussie pack. Get the dog away from home and the pack and she checks out. 

My dogs do learn from each other. There are things like the GSDs always open doors. In the beginning, the corgis were left out. The corgis learned that when the GSD opened the door, they could run underneath them and get in too. Ingrid and Tasha taught everyone to hate the evil neigbor Ms. Wallace after she cussed out hubby when he asked her not to let her dogs crap on our fenceline. Till the day she moved away and years after Ingrid and Tasha had died of old age, my entire house would go into full alert when she left her house for the walks at 9 & 5. 

I've had farmers ask me how to get a dog to work as a single when they have always worked in pairs. Usually, one was more confident than the other. The more confident one dies or something else happens and the other won't work at all without it. Now what? That's dependence you don't need. 

I just think in terms of setting the bond and relationship between me and the dog first, before it starts hanging out with the other dogs and for trialing and out and about in public, my dogs don't need to think they're supposed to engage other dogs. 

Terrasita


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Terrasita

"I've had farmers ask me how to get a dog to work as a single when they have always worked in pairs. Usually, one was more confident than the other. The more confident one dies or something else happens and the other won't work at all without it. Now what? That's dependence you don't need". 


I've experienced similar to that above, but I had reckoned that dog to be more of a dependant type, although no doubt he developed more so this way. I've never experienced my dogs being less focused on me although they have socialised in the manner you have described above regarding a more one on one.

Besides, the more advanced one becomes in the work and training and venue too obviously, then I accept what you are saying, I can see the pitfalls.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Butch Cappel said:


> ...
> I always wondered, "if the pup looks to the older dog, more than the human, does that mean the other dog is a better pack leader than they are?"


 Just a better teacher! JMO


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

I don't know. Older dogs use corrections and they never give treats! But hey the pups learn fast. Kind of makes one wonder how those old dogs do that without clickers and treats. I mean, if people are going to accept the dominance theory and swear by being the top dog, why doesn't that carry over to correcting the pups and no treats. Older dogs don't do it.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> I don't know. Older dogs use corrections and they never give treats! But hey the pups learn fast. Kind of makes one wonder how those old dogs do that without clickers and treats. I mean, if people are going to accept the dominance theory and swear by being the top dog, why doesn't that carry over to correcting the pups and no treats. Older dogs don't do it.



Most humans aren't as consistent as an older dog. Doesn't matter what method is used.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Just a question of natural progression Bob. LOL Seems if being part of the pack is gospel, possibly the pack is onto something with their strict discipline and no reward. But hey, that is probably just to easy.....and anyone can do it. LOL


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## Butch Cappel (Aug 12, 2007)

I hate to make things simple but it just sort of seems a dog communicating with a dog will always be understood better than a human talking to a dog. Has nothing to do with consistency or discipline, the dog just understands Doglish much better than English. 

All seemed to agree that dogs learn quickly from other dogs, but some felt a downside to that technique was that dogs then were more attentive to other dogs and cared less about the human. 

It just seemed to me that was a pack leader problem and not a "teaching" issue. My dogs definitely understand each other a little clearer than they do me, but that has no bearing on how they respond when I say some thing to them, my dogs are at my side and oblivious to the other dogs. 
To answer the OP, dogs teaching dogs is effective in most peoples experience. If there are other issues they are human problems, not a technique problem.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Butch Cappel said:


> I hate to make things simple but it just sort of seems a dog communicating with a dog will always be understood better than a human talking to a dog. Has nothing to do with consistency or discipline, the dog just understands Doglish much better than English.
> 
> All seemed to agree that dogs learn quickly from other dogs, but some felt a downside to that technique was that dogs then were more attentive to other dogs and cared less about the human.
> 
> ...



I agree with the pack leader issue as opposed to a "teaching" issue thing. 
My two male,6 yr old and 3 yr old intact GSDs spent the first 7-8 months in the house with me. They are now kenneled together with no issues. 
I've rarely had less then 3-4 dogs in the past 40-50 yrs and they always ran together. I only had two dogs in that many yrs that were trouble makers and it was more $#!+ temperment then anything else.
I've also never had the problem of one dog bonding to another more then to me. That's been with multiple house dogs and/or multiple yard dogs running together.


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