# Why dobermans are different. What do you think of this?



## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Saw this posted up on facebook, read it and thought some stuff.
What do you think of it?
Please don't bother saying 'dobermans are just shit' we are all aware of that opinion.

http://www.johnsoaresk9training.com/info/dobermanarticle.html


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## Paul Westall (Apr 27, 2012)

Interesting to me. I just read some of the stuff on his website and recommended it to a Dobie owner that I train with. His dog certainly is low prey drive compared to the Mals, but is improving in bitework. I'm curous to hear what he thought of it.


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## Dave Martin (Aug 11, 2010)

I think it's an excellent article that makes a lot of sense. The fact that John has successfully trained several Dobermans in the sport, and trained with dozens of Doberman handlers/breeders globally tells me he has the knowledge and experience to write such an article.

I've only been into dogsport for a few years so I cannot comment on how much the breed has declined in numbers, but I'd like to think there are still many handlers out there who recognize exactly what John explained and train their dogs accordingly.

It's always interesting to me when I read about how narrow minded so many training directors are when it comes to training off-breeds (as in, "you train _this_ way or your dog cant do it"). I must be extremely fortunate that all the people I've been lucky enough to train with over the years recognize every breed has unique traits that won't neccessarily benefit from the same style of training.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

makes perfect sense to me

addressing the protection side of it..pretty much sums up why I have been to lots of training sessions/groups and seen lots of off breed dogs that certain methods just do not work with. 

there is a whole package of traits that one can tap into.

if there is possession, and minor prey//use the "prey guarding" instincts, to both add more prey expressions into the dog, and promoting the pounce, as well as promoting his aggression, without confronting the dog directly and putting him into "self-defense" mode in a really stressful way, and build on the confidence in the striking.

If the prey is really lacking, and there is nothing to use for prey guarding, I use progressive mild defense, and lots of environmental stress, to raise the intensity and agression, and tap into the defensive side, using the envronment as much as possible to stress the dog, again so we dont have to directly confront the dogs. Lots of things... night time, surrounding, darkness, confinement, tie-out, whatever, can be used to keep stress to a minimum while tapping into those traits, to promote them, as well as promoting the pounce, and building on the prey.

Depends on the goals, as I mostly have done PP type training, but if the dog is decent, there is always something you can use to get rolling and channel into more prey, which then builds the defensive reponse over that prey, and to a point that it will be a usable drive to unload the stresses of the work.

with the offbreeds, for what I have been doing for a long time, the lack of prey has not been a huge issue, as long as there is confidence, defensive tendencies, aggression and goodish nerves. Without those, yer pretty much screwed. 

I have taken lots of offbreed dogs with a bunch of training in them (that got screwed), back to the tug sometimes or the pillow, to fix biting behaviors, and to free them up in thier heads. but doing that, in a way that works for that dog, which is not always just running around with it on a string, or trying to play with the dog..

rotties, all the "protection type" rarer molossers, boxers, dobies, can be very lacking in the prey area when compared to a herding dog. If you try to train them like most people work with younger herders, it usually just doesnt work. you have to add the intensity, and the striking through the defnsive and aggression first, then build on that.

I dont do SCH so I wont comment on that part of it. The article makes perfect sense, I agree and although I never put the thought into it to write an article about it, it pretty much describes the notion of working the dog in front of you...in a way that is effective for that dog. Which unfortunately requires the abiltiy to be able to read dogs, and use those other traits in the package effectively while still promoting the prey, which is not very difficult, but something that is not everyone is capable of doing.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

That was similar to my much shorter and less eloquent answer on another forum.
"In my experience dobermans often do better with 'dodgy PPD' methods than 'teach the rules through prey then add defense' "
By the way I am not slagging PPD here, that's where I come from, its the phrase I often hear coming from sport people, which is fine also.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Matt Vandart said:


> That was similar to my much shorter and less eloquent answer on another forum.
> "In my experience dobermans often do better with 'dodgy PPD' methods than 'teach the rules through prey then add defense' "
> By the way I am not slagging PPD here, that's where I come from, its the phrase I often hear coming from sport people, which is fine also.


LOTS of dogs do better with dodgy PPD methods. 
I find that humerous as well, if a good PPD guy does it, it is "dodgy" to some people, no matter the skill level or the outcome, if a good well versed sport trainer does it, or police dog trainer does it, it is awesome methodology to use... :roll:


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## Steve Burger (Jan 2, 2009)

Personally I don't agree with much of it. In our system the dogs are trained using the same methods. The only differences between individual dogs would be in correction threshold levels and how the dog may be approached given its individual temperament in protection. But this has to do more with the individual dog rather than because of the breed. For example if the individual dog is high prey high nerve, then there would be more conflict in the work. If the dog is high in conflict and lower level of prey, then we would work more in prey. 

I think the biggest downfall of the Doberman breed is Doberman owners. This article plays right into the Doberman owner mentality, that their dogs are different, special and must be treated differently because of this. In my opinion it also serves those professionals who a lot of Doberman people seem to be drawn to that there dogs are special and must be treated as such. Face it the job of a professional trainer is to get clients. So you get low expectations, and candy-ass training. Everything is in prey in protection work. For that matter some of the same type of training (high prey attraction) with herding breeds including mali's (and really much of the training out there kind of fits this mold) produces dogs that are pretty empty, especially in guarding phases.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Steve Burger said:


> Personally I don't agree with much of it. In our system the dogs are trained using the same methods. The only differences between individual dogs would be in correction threshold levels and how the dog may be approached given its individual temperament in protection. But this has to do more with the individual dog rather than because of the breed. For example if the individual dog is high prey high nerve, then there would be more conflict in the work. If the dog is high in conflict and lower level of prey, then we would work more in prey.
> 
> I think the biggest downfall of the Doberman breed is Doberman owners. This article plays right into the Doberman owner mentality, that their dogs are different, special and must be treated differently because of this. In my opinion it also serves those professionals who a lot of Doberman people seem to be drawn to that there dogs are special and must be treated as such. Face it the job of a professional trainer is to get clients. So you get low expectations, and candy-ass training. Everything is in prey in protection work. For that matter some of the same type of training (high prey attraction) with herding breeds including mali's (and really much of the training out there kind of fits this mold) produces dogs that are pretty empty, especially in guarding phases.


personally Steve. and I mean to put it lightly. the system YOU train with, IS NOT the normal IPO system, or sport sytem..that I see all season long at various clubs//

Your system appears to work with the Herder breeds in a fashion that mimics what is required to also get offbreeds working correctly.

You introduce biting in a serious fashion with a helper on equipment, and do the lighter stuff with the handler.

I am NOT a sport guy and DO NOT have access to TOP LEVEL sport system training, but have been around plenty of sport, and it does not really compare on average to what you guys are doing,...

the way that you guys do your progression actually (whether it is inline with TOP sport or not) IS in line with how proficeint PP and PSD trainers do it..

in a concise sentence, your system is NOT the average sport club type system..which I am quite sure you should agree with. (if I am wrong then I have misread everything you have ever posted)


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## Steve Burger (Jan 2, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> personally Steve. and I mean to put it lightly. the system YOU train with, IS NOT the normal IPO system, or sport sytem..that I see all season long at various clubs//
> 
> Your system appears to work with the Herder breeds in a fashion that mimics what is required to also get offbreeds working correctly.
> 
> ...


 I agree with you. I still don't agree with John's overall assessment and will leave it at that.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Steve Burger said:


> I agree with you. I still don't agree with John's overall assessment and will leave it at that.


WHAT HE IS SAYING IS THAT THE TYPICAL DOBEREMAN NEEDS TRAINING LIKE YOU GUYS DO..

and I will leave it at that..


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## travis raghib (Sep 7, 2012)

Matt Vandart said:


> Saw this posted up on facebook, read it and thought some stuff.
> What do you think of it?
> Please don't bother saying 'dobermans are just shit' we are all aware of that opinion.
> 
> http://www.johnsoaresk9training.com/info/dobermanarticle.html


This all sounds spot on with what I've experienced with my dog as of thus far and all the advice my breeder gave me. The parts about the mastiff and territorial guarding seem especially true.


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## Keith Jenkins (Jun 6, 2007)

Steve Burger said:


> Personally I don't agree with much of it. In our system the dogs are trained using the same methods. The only differences between individual dogs would be in correction threshold levels and how the dog may be approached given its individual temperament in protection. But this has to do more with the individual dog rather than because of the breed. For example if the individual dog is high prey high nerve, then there would be more conflict in the work. If the dog is high in conflict and lower level of prey, then we would work more in prey.
> 
> I think the biggest downfall of the Doberman breed is Doberman owners. This article plays right into the Doberman owner mentality, that their dogs are different, special and must be treated differently because of this. In my opinion it also serves those professionals who a lot of Doberman people seem to be drawn to that there dogs are special and must be treated as such. Face it the job of a professional trainer is to get clients. So you get low expectations, and candy-ass training. Everything is in prey in protection work. For that matter some of the same type of training (high prey attraction) with herding breeds including mali's (and really much of the training out there kind of fits this mold) produces dogs that are pretty empty, especially in guarding phases.


Spot on!...This is the same bullcrap a great many Rottweiler owners buy also...oh they have to be worked like this or that...bullshit...


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

In remembering the Dobes when I was a kid (50s) they were serious BA dogs. Rarely did one see a friendly or even a social Dobe in those days. You stayed away from them if you didn't know them. Even if you knew them and you weren't family you still left them alone.
The comparison of the Dobe with the terrier makes sense since the Dobe has a fair amount of terrier in it's back ground. The word Pincer actually means terrier.
With any dog the breeding for a more "social" dog for the pet/family trade has mellowed/ruined a lot of breeds.
The terriers have probably changed the least temperament wise simply because their ****you all attitude is still valued even in the show ring. I've often said if you bred a 60 lb JRT you'd have a Mal with a No Fear attitude and no environmental issues.


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## Lisa Radcliffe (Jun 9, 2011)

I read the article several years ago and what I took away from it was John Soares view about the problems the Dobermann's have in a club that is a one size fits all! The way I see it the problem is not the Dobermann or any other "off breed" it's TD/Helpers who can not read dogs let alone know what one breed brings that is different than another. Even worse are the ones who let these people train dogs in protection that should not be out on the field because their dog is not cut out for it. I though he was right on about the Dobermann, I did not get the impression he thought they needed "special" training just someone who knows how to read a dog. If he was in my area I would be thrilled to have someone like him to train with!


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## Wendy Schmitt (Apr 29, 2009)

I disagree with this article. The issue is John has spent 99% of his time working with one bloodline, a Euro show line that are dogs from Ray Carlisle. So while I think John is a knowledgeable guy he has had almost no involvement in working line Dobes which have a much different Temperment than the show lines......something we can see in many breeds.

Wendy Schmitt
Www.landgrafk9.com


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## Steve Burger (Jan 2, 2009)

Wendy Schmitt said:


> I disagree with this article. The issue is John has spent 99% of his time working with one bloodline, a Euro show line that are dogs from Ray Carlisle. So while I think John is a knowledgeable guy he has had almost no involvement in working line Dobes which have a much different Temperment than the show lines......something we can see in many breeds.
> 
> Wendy Schmitt
> Www.landgrafk9.com


 Actually I was thinking the same thing but did not know much of the history with Soare's work with Dobermann's beyond seeing the video of the Cara dog he worked several years back.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Bob Scott said:


> In remembering the Dobes when I was a kid (50s) they were serious BA dogs. Rarely did one see a friendly or even a social Dobe in those days. You stayed away from them if you didn't know them. Even if you knew them and you weren't family you still left them alone.
> The comparison of the Dobe with the terrier makes sense since the Dobe has a fair amount of terrier in it's back ground. The word Pincer actually means terrier.
> With any dog the breeding for a more "social" dog for the pet/family trade has mellowed/ruined a lot of breeds.
> The terriers have probably changed the least temperament wise simply because their ****you all attitude is still valued even in the show ring. *I've often said if you bred a 60 lb JRT you'd have a Mal with a No Fear attitude and no environmental issues.*


Pitts and staffs?


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## Steve Burger (Jan 2, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> WHAT HE IS SAYING IS THAT THE TYPICAL DOBEREMAN NEEDS TRAINING LIKE YOU GUYS DO..
> 
> and I will leave it at that..


 One look at the picture of the dog he is working (as a helper) wearing a stupid harness will tell you he does not train like we do. A good friend was watching a pre-trial training session with him working a bunch of Doberman's.The friend trained at our club for several years and is a National level helper. He was quite explicit that John does not train like we do.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

i gotta agree with Steve's assessment and what Wendy threw in helps connect the dots even easier

imo, the key to a good protection dog is the ability to make it want to bite and FIGHT humans while still being able to control it.
- the Lance Collins method seems to use use this concept even tho it is for a sport and not for real life. they build dogs that want to fight people with intensity, and of course to do this you have to push the dog to WANT to do it, regardless if you are building on prey or defensive drives

of course prey drive is often used but often overrated ... it is only an instinctual "remnant" left over when canines NEEDED it and that has long since faded since they became DOGS rather than predators. plus, prey drive is nothing more than the hard wired instinct to chase a moving object to gain the advantage. gotta catch it before you can kill it .... duh //lol//
.... an EASY example to see how over rated it is would be to watch cats of all sizes. MANY times if the prey freezes, the cat will lose interest and not have a clue what to do next  

for herders it seems like an even more no-brainer --- a full deep locked on bite would get that dog culled, correct ?

for me it's simple. it's the fire in the gut that makes a good predator, and the same goes for dogs if you truly want to develop them as a protection tool, or a serious IPO sport dog.
build up THAT ingredient and you get a good one, which is why tapping into defense is usually required

- i've always assumed the doberman movie was the start of the slippery slope that made them family companion dogs and really messed with their gene bank. don't know a lot about mastiffs, but over here if you mess too much with Tosas as if they were a prey driven breed, you usually end up getting bit and they start to really enjoy their "corrections" //lol//

regarding the bite .. go back and watch wild canines ... do they all have deep calm full bites ? you must be smoking good stuff if you believe that  
... they grab nip tear slash and bite, repeatedly, til the prey drops ... because that's how they hunt game
- it's only the human that has developed a need for a deep calm full bite, and i never knew dobes were bred for half bites 
- but who cares ? any truly aggressive dog can do a LOT of human damage with multiple bites; they don't need to lock on when they fight

so how about fight ?? again ..... also human bred. stupid and senseless "drive" for almost all wild predators. intimidation and posturing is usually preferred. again, look at cats. although male lions will kill the rival for a takeover, they will only do it as a last resort because of the risks involved

what i'm trying to say is that when we train a dog for serious protection work, we are constantly trying to tap into primal genetic instincts that are buried deep, if they are even still there at all. 
- first, we bred out those drives to make them dogs and then we try to reverse the evolutionary process and REtrain them to be predators again. always been amazing to me that we can ever do it successfully, which is why i like dogs 

- also just as amazing is how we have NEVER been able to do it with cats even tho we consider them "domestic" too ... which is why i like them just as much 

of course many of the so called "off breeds" seem to have lost a lot of prey drive ... no biggy ... use what they bring to the table and build on it ... the end result can be the same as a ball crazy herder if the training is adapted to the dog

that's my nickel


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## Lisa Radcliffe (Jun 9, 2011)

Wendy Schmitt said:


> I disagree with this article. The issue is John has spent 99% of his time working with one bloodline, a Euro show line that are dogs from Ray Carlisle. So while I think John is a knowledgeable guy he has had almost no involvement in working line Dobes which have a much different Temperment than the show lines......something we can see in many breeds.
> 
> Wendy Schmitt
> http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/Www.landgrafk9.com


Interesting Wendy, could you clarify what part you disagree with? I myself have no idea what kind of Dobermanns John has experience with, but from what I read in the article ( I read again tonight) he talks about understanding the breeds responsible for the creation of the Dobermann ( not euro show/or working line but the Dobermann. and how they are Aggression/Defense based breed and different from the "herders" I think I have a good idea of working line dobes and how they are different than the Euro/show just do not see it in this article.


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

I personally dont agree with what John had written. Im not going to try and argue training methods with John as he is a far better trainer than I am. Their issues are genetic and are only going to be fixed through selcective breeding by serious people. And there is just not enough of those in the breed.


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## Lisa Radcliffe (Jun 9, 2011)

Christopher Jones said:


> I personally dont agree with what John had written. Im not going to try and argue training methods with John as he is a far better trainer than I am. Their issues are genetic and are only going to be fixed through selcective breeding by serious people. And there is just not enough of those in the breed.


You are right the issues with the Dobermann and other working breeds can only be fixed through selective breeding by serious people and there are a handful of those! and they do not do it for money either-


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Steve Burger said:


> One look at the picture of the dog he is working (as a helper) wearing a stupid harness will tell you he does not train like we do. A good friend was watching a pre-trial training session with him working a bunch of Doberman's.The friend trained at our club for several years and is a National level helper. He was quite explicit that John does not train like we do.


I dont know shit about John Soares. or how he trains. I did see him on the comfy control harness commercials.

My only interest in the article was the differences in the expressions of certain traits on average for certain types of dogs. and the writings on the terrier types and mastiff types and what I have seen in the dobermans...seems spot on. 

all I was saying was that most of these types of dogs will do much better with the type of training that I " think " you guys are doing, based on your and other peoples writings and few videos that I have come accross. ANd that many of those types of dogs will not do very well with people that are not skilled at reading the dogs and tapping into the other traits.

It was a compliment to what you guys are doing, and a statement that all dogs can benefit from that type of work, but also that many dogs that are not of the herding dog type mentality, NEED that type of work.

That was all I was saying..

I was not intending to compare how John Soares trains the dogs compared to you guys, just what was laid out as a basic description of various dog types and how they differ, that is what I was going for, many many people have big problems working with certain types of dogs that differ from the working herder lines...I dont think you guys would have those problems, based on what I think I know about what you guys do, and the skill level that is present.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

I met John ten years ago at the first DPCA WDS pilot trial in Colorado Springs and then again in 2006 and 2008. Based on watching him compete and watching him work my Dobermanns and others. You can do a LOT worse then following his training advise with a Dobermann. The facts are he has taken "showy" Dobermann lines and competed with them at the Dobermann world Championship. He also won the 2012 AWDF Championship with a 100 96 96 292 with his Malinois, so he's not a one breed trainer either. I admit some Dobermann owners make excuses for their dogs BUT I don't buy the Lance Colins one size fits all
breeds training philosophy either.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Matt Vandart said:


> Pitts and staffs?


I've had more then half a dozen different terrier breeds. The little bassids for the most part. As far as the larger ones I had one Pit, one White Bull and two Kerry Blues over the years.


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## Steve Burger (Jan 2, 2009)

Thomas Barriano said:


> I admit some Dobermann owners make excuses for their dogs BUT I don't buy the Lance Colins one size fits all
> breeds training philosophy either.


 The LC system works for any working dog. However I doubt if you will ever see any teaching helper with as many levels of sensitivity for the needs of the individual dog as Lance Collins. So that is a bit of the balancing act. There is a reason that in the 5 days that Jogi Zank trained with our club he was never farther than 10' away from Lance when he was working dogs in protection. 

Nobody is saying that John Soares is anything less than an excellent trainer. The proof is in the pudding. Now does that mean I want the results I see in his dogs in protection..no (well the technical correctness, sure) but he is undeniably a great bitesports handler and trainer.


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## Amber Scott Dyer (Oct 30, 2006)

My dobermann girl was very tough. I didn't do anything different with her than we did with the mals and gsds in the club, and she was great. I think that a really great trainer can definitely take a substandard dog to the high levels of competition- what I don't understand is why they bother. I'm a crappy trainer, and my dogs had to do well in spite of me :grin:

Course - she died of cancer at five years old... which is why I haven't got another one yet.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> In remembering the Dobes when I was a kid (50s) they were serious BA dogs. Rarely did one see a friendly or even a social Dobe in those days. You stayed away from them if you didn't know them. Even if you knew them and you weren't family you still left them alone.
> The comparison of the Dobe with the terrier makes sense since the Dobe has a fair amount of terrier in it's back ground. The word Pincer actually means terrier.
> With any dog the breeding for a more "social" dog for the pet/family trade has mellowed/ruined a lot of breeds.
> The terriers have probably changed the least temperament wise simply because their ****you all attitude is still valued even in the show ring. I've often said if you bred a 60 lb JRT you'd have a Mal with a No Fear attitude and no environmental issues.


I agree with you Bob.

Doberman, Airedale, Rottweiler, Giant Schnauzer, Briard, etc. were not considered "off breeds" at least not on this side of the pond in the 1980-1990s.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Bob Scott said:


> In remembering the Dobes when I was a kid (50s) they were serious BA dogs. Rarely did one see a friendly or even a social Dobe in those days. You stayed away from them if you didn't know them. Even if you knew them and you weren't family you still left them alone.
> The comparison of the Dobe with the terrier makes sense since the Dobe has a fair amount of terrier in it's back ground. The word Pincer actually means terrier.
> With any dog the breeding for a more "social" dog for the pet/family trade has mellowed/ruined a lot of breeds.
> The terriers have probably changed the least temperament wise simply because their ****you all attitude is still valued even in the show ring. I've often said if you bred a 60 lb JRT you'd have a Mal with a No Fear attitude and no environmental issues.


The fact that most terriers have their working traits directed more towards fur has kept that in there moreso.

The breeds that have more of a focus on people, breeding trends have certainly taken their toll.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Joby Becker said:


> The fact that most terriers have their working traits directed more towards fur has kept that in there moreso.
> 
> The breeds that have more of a focus on people, breeding trends have certainly taken their toll.




That's a fair statement. Even many of the show line dogs will happily dispatch a rat with ease like they had done it all their lives. I think they will happily go after anything in front of them that moves if not taught control.


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## Edward Weiss (Sep 19, 2011)

The Airedales I have had train pretty much as standard Herding type but for one difference.
They growl and shake when they bite. The growling is just part of the package,they will grab a bumper shake and growl,the same with a tug,sleeve or suit. I know it is in some breeds seen as insecurity .Growl and shake is for terriers happiness.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

I concur with this


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Edward Weiss said:


> The Airedales I have had train pretty much as standard Herding type but for one difference.
> They growl and shake when they bite. The growling is just part of the package,they will grab a bumper shake and growl,the same with a tug,sleeve or suit. I know it is in some breeds seen as insecurity .Growl and shake is for terriers happiness.



I can't recall any of mine that didn't shake the crap out of anything they got their mouth on. That includes one for real human bite my JRT had when my son's "friend" got to rough and put my son down hard on his back. 
I had to pry the little bassid off the kid's quad muscle and the dog wanted to go back in when I finally got him off. 
The bills were worth it though. :twisted: 
I've never looked at the shake on a bite as a negative.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

why is shaking while gripping seen as a measure of insecurity ?
what breeds ?

do some people think it means the dog wants to release their grip and not "stay in the fight" ??
... or could it be that the dog just thinks that piece of meat is useless until it is broken off and in their mouth ?

i can hold a drumstick and my dog will usually crunch it down in stages to my fingers. but if he's really hungry he will give it a shake and break it free ... but either way he seems pretty secure about the whole routine //lol//


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

With hunt terriers I've always seen the shake as setting the teeth in deeper, trying to break the critters back or to keep the critter moving to avoid their teeth. Similar to picking up a copperhead by the tail and shaking it to keep it from climbing it's own body in order to bite you. If it's fear I sure as hell wouldn't be picking up a Copperhead in the first place.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

I think it is more of the vocalizations that are seen by people as nerviness.
not so much the shaking, many people do not like that shaking behavior/countering for certain reasons depending on what they are doing, but I dont think many people attribute the shaking to nerves, could be wrong though, happens quite often..mayber someone that thinks shaking is due to thinner or poor nerves will speak up..


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## Jennifer Thornton (Dec 12, 2010)

If shaking is seen as weakness....I must have a weak dog


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