# Mali / DS lines



## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Alot of us have been doing dutch & belgium lines malis & DS for a long time. Was curious to what people have seen outside the ordinary lines that are and have become very popular to all of us. Newbies are welcome to post as well to if they have enjoy some experiences or have seen a real eye catcher line.

Please dont refer to:
Rudie pegge, O.J.'s Cannibal x Kitty, Castor, Arko, Carlos, Iwan, Dingo, Endor, Jett, Wibo, Jary, Remco, Stone, Turcodos, Spike, Rambo, Boy, Tommy etc.... I think you get the picture folks.

I know I have listed all males with the exception of one female. We all seem to be into certain lines and am curious to what outside lines have produced and are of good gentics as well as strong workers that would be good to throw a nice loop into the mix of what we all are familiar with already.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Harry Keely said:


> Please dont refer to:
> Rudie pegge, O.J.'s Cannibal x Kitty, Castor, Arko, Carlos, Iwan, Dingo, Endor, Jett, Wibo, Jary, Remco, Stone, Turcodos, Spike, Rambo, Boy, Tommy etc.... I think you get the picture folks.


You've just about eliminated all the non registered dogs with that wide stroke, on the DS side anyway.


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## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

Isnt Chucky down from Tiesto (spl?)


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> You've just about eliminated all the non registered dogs with that wide stroke, on the DS side anyway.


I have a good bunch or have had a good bunch of those lines, I like them by all means. What I'm wanting to know is there any outside the box that people have here in the USA that can elaborate. I know the Dutch have a spectrum you can see that on their site. Just curious if we have all gotten comfortable with the above mention including myself or theres more to offer out there that is worth a shit you know what I'm saying.:grin:


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Harry Keely said:


> Alot of us have been doing dutch & belgium lines malis & DS for a long time. Was curious to what people have seen outside the ordinary lines that are and have become very popular to all of us. Newbies are welcome to post as well to if they have enjoy some experiences or have seen a real eye catcher line.
> 
> Please dont refer to:
> Rudie pegge, O.J.'s Cannibal x Kitty, Castor, Arko, Carlos, Iwan, Dingo, Endor, Jett, Wibo, Jary, Remco, Stone, Turcodos, Spike, Rambo, Boy, Tommy etc.... I think you get the picture folks.
> ...


Well, I haven't been doing this a long time, but I do know what I like/want in a dog. Once I find it, I really don't care where it came from, HOWEVER.....every line offers something unique and different, that is why people go back to it.
Don't know anything about OJ Cannibal x Kitty so it isn't that popular, however the rest of the above listed like Gerry said are in and around most popular lines all over the world now, whether its direct offspring or a few generations back. (Brindle or not...)
In order to get the marketing aspect of something or produce good dogs, for one you have to breed the shit out of your dog.....you have to have many offspring out there and producing good results in order to have some credibility one as a breeder and two for the dog. If he had two litters both good results, well thats just a few dogs, the numbers have to be greater for people to go to that line as well as if it is something they are looking for in there dog.

For instance, I like a harder dog and even hard headed...I have a dog from a line that is suppose to be that way, however she is not, she is super social and easy to train, workaholic! Of that litter and the many the stud produced she is probably less than 10% of the norm produced....Just because a dog/line has a tendancy to produce what your looking for doesn't always mean your gonna get it.

Another thing to, is the above mentioned dogs are male except for one.....there are many females that make or break the results, some more than others and some studs you can probably breed to a billy goat and get strong results! LOL

I have seen some Joe Farm dogs that I really liked years back and they are a well known breeder, but don't know enough about them that if I had a breeding program I want to go to those lines......O"Vitosha.......marketing tool for overpriced dogs, I have seen and the majority not impressed....However others are.....?? Lowenfals, Roten Faken, Lobsters Home, Vastenow.....Papered, not papered, striped or not striped.... They are out there, but are they producing enough dogs and sending them to the right places in order to build the resume/credibility and get their name/dog/kennel out there? 

Who knows? On this forum you have guys like Don T, Mike S, Daryl E, Dick & Selena and others who have a program going, they know what they like, they are successful and for the most part of what I can see are happy with what they produce. 

Yes, I am curious as well as others what would happen if you outcross or breed to a different line......but look at most police dogs today, we have no idea the lines (Could be two farm dogs, or two great bloodline dogs, or even brother and sister), but we don't care cuz they work and do a job. Again, they aren't breeding dogs so papers wouldn't matter anyway. 

Gotta remember where the dog is going as well, type of work, type of handler/trainer....many good dogs end up in the wrong hands and then get passed down the line as a shitter or washout because the trainer didn't know or understand the dog and where he came from (line) It's understanding it, your goals, and the end result to get there......

I like certain dogs and when I find a line or dog I like, I stick to it as long as its giving me the results I like....but always looking to find something special.........

I have seen probably 5-8 direct offspring of Django (BRN 4730) and don't know what kind of dog he is personally, but I really liked what I saw in his offspring! Don't know the females off hand, but every dog was really nice!

What are your goals of this thread, to buy something different? or not popular?


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Whats a long time? Aren't most of the dogs named still alive or just recently dead.
90% of the Malis to walk the soil here in the USofA are still alive and well prolly a bigger number for the Dutch.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Jody Butler said:


> Well, I haven't been doing this a long time, but I do know what I like/want in a dog. Once I find it, I really don't care where it came from, HOWEVER.....every line offers something unique and different, that is why people go back to it.
> Don't know anything about OJ Cannibal x Kitty so it isn't that popular, however the rest of the above listed like Gerry said are in and around most popular lines all over the world now, whether its direct offspring or a few generations back. (Brindle or not...)
> In order to get the marketing aspect of something or produce good dogs, for one you have to breed the shit out of your dog.....you have to have many offspring out there and producing good results in order to have some credibility one as a breeder and two for the dog. If he had two litters both good results, well thats just a few dogs, the numbers have to be greater for people to go to that line as well as if it is something they are looking for in there dog.
> 
> ...


Nope nothing different although I would if Something was that good that was proven & Popularity I can care less about like as you stated in your eyes that the cannibal x kitty isn't that popular for the fact that I own one of them so nope that isn't it. Like I said I like the dogs and lines that come from Mike.S & Dick & selena.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Mike Scheiber said:


> Whats a long time? Aren't most of the dogs named still alive or just recently dead.
> 90% of the Malis to walk the soil here in the USofA are still alive and well prolly a bigger number for the Dutch.


Long enough that they have a true understanding of the breed(s) which would vary obviously with each individual person ( no specific date on it ). Have own a good bit of them, have train with a good bit of them, have bred and raised them, If nothing else have own at least one for a number of years and lived / trained with it. Yes you are correct of the dogs named. understandable of them being 90%. Was looking to see what people like outside the norm if that was possible.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

I started this topic to see what is out there that is popular or un-popular, male or female, stripes or no stripes, black because thats just preference to go along with a good dog. Just figured I bring up a topic to get the balls rolling in peoples head to see what is out there that we as a whole might be missing on. Not trying to take away away from any of the original dogs listed for like I already mentioned I have owned or still do own those lines. Just looking to see what lines are out there that are great that we could maybe throw into a mix someday like Django. I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one that has thought about this, might be the only one typing about it though.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Harry Keely said:


> Long enough that they have a true understanding of the breed(s) which would vary obviously with each individual person ( no specific date on it ). Have own a good bit of them, have train with a good bit of them, have bred and raised them, If nothing else have own at least one for a number of years and lived / trained with it. Yes you are correct of the dogs named. understandable of them being 90%. Was looking to see what people like outside the norm if that was possible.


Not trying to break your balls or any one else for that matter but these dogs haven't been around here very long ware dose all the this dog knowledge and understanding come from. When did you get your first Dutch dog?


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Mike Scheiber said:


> Not trying to break your balls or any one else for that matter but these dogs haven't been around here very long ware dose all the this dog knowledge and understanding come from. When did you get your first Dutch dog?


Been screwing with these breeds for a good amount of years more so the mali for a good chunk of the beginning, Striped ones since I think 2000 early 2001 if I have my bearings right and have even owned a couple of GSD in that time span, but I'm no guru and will never put myself out there as one. I'm just a guy that has a breed that he knows he likes. Actually these dogs have been around for some time now but back then gentics as far as papers go were not that popular to know and you were lucky to get that. Not maybe the above mentioned but the breed as in mali and dutchie, belgium and dutch lines has. They just are showing up in greater numbers over the last 5 years or so from what I have seen. I'm sure Dick & Selena, Gerben and some others can tell you it has picked up drastically the USA buying dogs from them especially after 9/11/01, Just like all these contracts and Bomb Dogs have. alrighty lets get back on the original post here of what might be good out there that we are missing on as far as these dogs go.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Maybe I'm over stepping my bounds, maybe I'm not by asking this but this is a question for the big people in these breeds that have accounts or know people cross seas. I'm asking because I'm just a small number dog owner and have always been. Is there dogs that are excellent that are cross seas that are not willing to sell to the USA that maybe theres offspring off that if we wanted to get ( no punches intended ) just a question and maybe a stupid one to improve what we already have here that is considered top notch:-k?


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Harry Keely said:


> Alot of us have been doing dutch & belgium lines malis & DS for a long time. Was curious to what people have seen outside the ordinary lines that are and have become very popular to all of us. Newbies are welcome to post as well to if they have enjoy some experiences or have seen a real eye catcher line.
> 
> Please dont refer to:
> Rudie pegge, O.J.'s Cannibal x Kitty, Castor, Arko, Carlos, Iwan, Dingo, Endor, Jett, Wibo, Jary, .


Harry, do you have the pedigree info for the Cannibal and Kitty dogs? I would be interested to see if they go back on the same lines on the back end as the new dogs comming in.
Any video of them or offspring kickin around that you know of?
Thx


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

the names you mention have, if you go far enough, the same few anceisters , eg Eik, Robbie Hoogenboom.
A great few you mention have the same kind traits, I think you have mentioned the list for studs/lines wich inherite those traits. 
At this moment I really wouldn´t know an `outsider`, if you taken another bloodline there will be different traits, maybe they do their work as good as the studs you mention, but -personal preference- we don´t like the traits.


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## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

As Selena already stated, a strong bloodline will produce uniformity. So if that line produces traits you like and dogs you'd like to have for yourself, then it wouldn't be very smart to go to other lines and get a completely different type of dog.

That's why we also prefer stick to our own lines. We know the type of dog thoroughly and know how to handle them.

Also there are very few dogs from Belgian lines in the US. 
KNPV and Belgian Ring have completely different goals. KNPV's goal is to produce good police dogs, train them and afterwards sell them, whereas Belgian ring people will keep the dog and compete, so it's much more likely you can buy a good KNPV dog then a good BR dog and hence the breeding stock from KNPV will be much bigger in the US.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

There are so many very significant dogs that were not mentioned in your list Harry. If someone here was looking to expand the gene pool, I would say take a look at some of these bloodlines.
I really like the lines from Berry Hogeling, Robbie Tinnemans, Arras Derks (more specifically his father Marko Derks), Rudy Janssen-his father Marko Janssen-and his father Bart Janssen.
What I really found intersting in your post is that you left out perhaps one of the most influential dogs, Duco II Seegers. 
There is a dog in Holland now (actually I have heard that he is in now in the Slovack somewhere) named Sawasdee. He is a tremendous producer that very few people know much about.
I have a couple offspring from him that are extreme dogs in every phase of the work.
We have females in our breeding program here that have all of the above listed dogs behind them, and I think they go well with the lines that harry listed in the beginning of this thread.


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## Ellen Piepers (Nov 6, 2008)

mike suttle said:


> There is a dog in Holland now (actually I have heard that he is in now in the Slovack somewhere) named Sawasdee. He is a tremendous producer that very few people know much about.


I've seen him taking his PH1 exam, very nice dog.


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## Zakia Days (Mar 13, 2009)

Harry Keely said:


> Alot of us have been doing dutch & belgium lines malis & DS for a long time. Was curious to what people have seen outside the ordinary lines that are and have become very popular to all of us. Newbies are welcome to post as well to if they have enjoy some experiences or have seen a real eye catcher line.
> 
> Please dont refer to:
> Rudie pegge, O.J.'s Cannibal x Kitty, Castor, Arko, Carlos, Iwan, Dingo, Endor, Jett, Wibo, Jary, Remco, Stone, Turcodos, Spike, Rambo, Boy, Tommy etc.... I think you get the picture folks.
> ...


Yeah dude! Someone mentioned already, how can you not mention Duco Seegers?! A few other kennels are Lenders, Forte Oranje, van Kemphuis, du Bois des Trembles, Calvaire aux Acacias, Nelly du Beaux Pupliers, de Loups Mutins, Muizenbos, Groetenhof, Heidewachter, Deux Pottois, Perle de Tourbiere, du Boscaille, de Noalliare, du Chemin des Plaines, and a few other kennels on the tip of my tongue that'll come back to me soon as I log off I'm sure. Pretty sure my spelling is off. There are two sport dutchies here in U.S. I really like: Titan des Crocs de L'Olympe FR III and Bas FR II???.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

very true and didn't mena nothing bad about putting Duco in there, have had that line but not currently, thats why I put etc... after Tommy to not disrespect or cause any harm if I forgot any particular dogs such as Duco.

Glad to see people putting insight on some dogs that are not mentioned at all or are rarely mentioned. I'm glad that Mike, Dick & selena, Martine are answering, for this is what I was hoping for. Looking to get some insight from folk that have dealt in quanity as well as quality to get a overall picture of what they think.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Zakia Days said:


> Yeah dude! Someone mentioned already, how can you not mention Duco Seegers?! A few other kennels are Lenders, Forte Oranje, van Kemphuis, du Bois des Trembles, Calvaire aux Acacias, Nelly du Beaux Pupliers, de Loups Mutins, Muizenbos, Groetenhof, Heidewachter, Deux Pottois, Perle de Tourbiere, du Boscaille, de Noalliare, du Chemin des Plaines, and a few other kennels on the tip of my tongue that'll come back to me soon as I log off I'm sure. Pretty sure my spelling is off. There are two sport dutchies here in U.S. I really like: Titan des Crocs de L'Olympe FR III and Bas FR II???.


I'm aware of most these Kennels but if you guys can be more specific of the dogs that you have owned or worked or have a good reliable inside on instead of the broad spectrum of a kennel.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Christopher Jones said:


> Harry, do you have the pedigree info for the Cannibal and Kitty dogs? I would be interested to see if they go back on the same lines on the back end as the new dogs comming in.
> Any video of them or offspring kickin around that you know of?
> Thx


Theres a few on here that have these lines from the one you are asking about. There are two mainly being used one being my Angel and Rick's Penny both here on the east coast as far as immediate offspring. As far as grandchildren theres are guessing around 40-50 GC's. Hill on here has one from Penny and Rick's dog. And another litter out of Angel of 10. two Grand daughters were bred this year, not sure on the litter sizes there in the north east, but have all been club level / ppd or working in a official capacity here in the USA and Carribean. I heard possibly of another Penny litter coming soon.

Here is Penny's Pedigre : http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/dogs/dutch_shepherd/pedigree/714977.html
Here is Angel Pedigree & Pic : http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/dogs/dutch_shepherd/pedigree/947140.html


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Ellen Piepers said:


> I've seen him taking his PH1 exam, very nice dog.


What did you like and what did you not like if any, Do you have the dogs bloodline number if there is one.


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Harry Keely said:


> Theres a few on here that have these lines from the one you are asking about. There are two mainly being used one being my Angel and Rick's Penny both here on the east coast as far as immediate offspring. As far as grandchildren theres are guessing around 40-50 GC's. Hill on here has one from Penny and Rick's dog. And another litter out of Angel of 10. two Grand daughters were bred this year, not sure on the litter sizes there in the north east, but have all been club level / ppd or working in a official capacity here in the USA and Carribean. I heard possibly of another Penny litter coming soon.
> 
> Here is Penny's Pedigre : http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/dogs/dutch_shepherd/pedigree/714977.html
> Here is Angel Pedigree & Pic : http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/dogs/dutch_shepherd/pedigree/947140.html


 
Is the Atos in the pedegree the Atos from Dian SanLorenzo-Rick Wolterbeek (von Christels kennels, Florida)?

Dick)


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> Is the Atos in the pedegree the Atos from Dian SanLorenzo-Rick Wolterbeek (von Christels kennels, Florida)?
> 
> Dick)


I honestly don't know so don't want to say yes and don't want to say no, I will try to find out though? Who is Dian? Is Rick up in the Illinois area or if not where is he now?


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

New question folks, Out of the lines mentioned what offspring have reproduced and are workers ( male or females ), Please be specific with names of the dogs and who they are out of. If you know a bunch you don't have to obviously mention all of them, but ones that have stuck in your head because they were that nice.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> Is the Atos in the pedegree the Atos from Dian SanLorenzo-Rick Wolterbeek (von Christels kennels, Florida)?
> 
> Dick)


Dick & selena I know you don't own the dogs but how is Bunker, Zero & Pablo as producers?


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## Candy Eggert (Oct 28, 2008)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> Is the Atos in the pedegree the Atos from Dian SanLorenzo-Rick Wolterbeek (von Christels kennels, Florida)?
> 
> Dick)


Yes!


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Sounds like someone is doing research for a breeding program....


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Harry Keely said:


> Dick & selena I know you don't own the dogs but how is Bunker, Zero & Pablo as producers?


We don't own them, same last name, no relative. Bunker is a good producer, we used him as the stud on Tessa, litter is due september 27th.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Candy Eggert said:


> Yes!


Can you elaborate on that yes, and can you and Dick / Selena talk about the good and bad qualities of Atos please. Thanks in advance.\\/


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Harry Keely said:


> Who is Dian? Is Rick up in the Illinois area or if not where is he now?


Dian is the ex of Rik. As far as I remember it was IL, but Rik is on this board, shoot him a PM to know for sure.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Jody Butler said:


> Sounds like someone is doing research for a breeding program....


No reason for research for the fact of the lines being proven to produce and Angel & Penny being nice dogs for the female gender. My litter consisted of ten pups 3 boys & 7 girls, born Oct. 12,2010. All three boys have gone to a official working place, and 4 girls to official places. 1 girl was sold to be used for SCH, 1 girl for PSA or SCH they were undecided, one that went for PPD. I keep in touch with everybody in this litter and as of right now knock on wood they are all excelling some off course faster than others. She was bred to a Very large and strong Rudie Pegge son that is owned by people doing the breed for a very,very long time which originated from Tony Guzman out of Miami.


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Thanks Candy. 

Atos is out of Van Leeuwen's Robbie (founder of our bloodline) and Tijger Schaamhart, bloedlijnen.nl; brn 1932


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> Dian is the ex of Rik. As far as I remember it was IL, but Rik is on this board, shoot him a PM to know for sure.


What can you tell me about Atos good, bad and indifferent.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> Thanks Candy.
> 
> Atos is out of Van Leeuwen's Robbie (founder of our bloodline) and Tijger Schaamhart, bloedlijnen.nl; brn 1932


Nice combo just looked at it, Thanks for the heads up and appreciate the info, like you said we are never to old to learn new stuff. Some people seem to think otherwise though and look down for wanting to learn and be open minded to new ideas to improve what is already in place. Like I said thankyou very much so for the info.


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Harry Keely said:


> Dick / Selena talk about the good and bad qualities of Atos please. Thanks in advance.\\/


Hard attack, big dog (70 cm, 50 kg), if you google on von christel kennel there is a still an very old website online with pics and video. 
I know Dian did some PSA/though dog trials with him. Also know that Rik had some fun using Atos for seminars/decoy training:mrgreen::mrgreen: a lot of ippons for Atos.

He sired different litters in von Christels kennel and in FL surroundings. He moved to the USA around 1995, after obtaining PH1 and OBj certificate here in Holland.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> Hard attack, big dog (70 cm, 50 kg), if you google on von christel kennel there is a still an very old website online with pics and video.
> I know Dian did some PSA/though dog trials with him. Also know that Rik had some fun using Atos for seminars/decoy training:mrgreen::mrgreen: a lot of ippons for Atos.
> 
> He sired different litters in von Christels kennel and in FL surroundings. He moved to the USA around 1995, after obtaining PH1 and OBj certificate here in Holland.


Once again much appreciated, What other dogs do you guys see outside of your immediate family that are not known here to well that are strong dogs all around?


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Really don't know.

At this moment all/mosl x DS studs/litters in Holland (on bloedlijnen.nl) are related to our dogs (Robbie/Rocky) or Castor or Arras/Rudie Pegge. 
x DS in Germany are mainly from MR Bunker (Tommy son/Rocky grandson) and Arras/Rudie Pegge.
Not many x DS in Belgium, a few from our breedings and a kennel(van het ittertal) who shows x DS to get confirmation and later FCI pedigree. They also use the named bloodlines.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> Really don't know.
> 
> At this moment all/mosl x DS studs/litters in Holland (on bloedlijnen.nl) are related to our dogs (Robbie/Rocky) or Castor or Arras/Rudie Pegge.
> x DS in Germany are mainly from MR Bunker (Tommy son/Rocky grandson) and Arras/Rudie Pegge.
> Not many x DS in Belgium, a few from our breedings and a kennel(van het ittertal) who shows x DS to get confirmation and later FCI pedigree. They also use the named bloodlines.


Gotcha, appreciate your insight, have noticed to a good extent myself from looking on the bloodline site. Just curious if there were any outsiders you would use or consider using if you were wanting to. i have enjoyed the info and conversation and your open truthful opinions / facts. Hopely we can't get some other insight from some of the others, like we have gotten from you.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Rik is in IL...we are going to hopefully train together sometime soon I think....


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## Candy Eggert (Oct 28, 2008)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> Thanks Candy.
> 
> Atos is out of Van Leeuwen's Robbie (founder of our bloodline) and Tijger Schaamhart, bloedlijnen.nl; brn 1932


You're welcome Selena ;-) My first exposure to Dutchies was from Diane (when she was competing), either with Atos or his son. At the time I had heard very little about Dutchies but just to hear Diane talk, well, you could easily become a fan


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## Greg Whelehan (Dec 1, 2008)

Harry Keely said:


> No reason for research for the fact of the lines being proven to produce and Angel & Penny being nice dogs for the female gender. My litter consisted of ten pups 3 boys & 7 girls, born Oct. 12,2010. All three boys have gone to a official working place, and 4 girls to official places. 1 girl was sold to be used for SCH, 1 girl for PSA or SCH they were undecided, one that went for PPD. I keep in touch with everybody in this litter and as of right now knock on wood they are all excelling some off course faster than others. She was bred to a Very large and strong Rudie Pegge son that is owned by people doing the breed for a very,very long time which originated from Tony Guzman out of Miami.


Harry:
What dogs do you currently have in your breeding program.... I mean kennel? What's their pedigrees? Any videos of your dogs training yet? I'd love to see them.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Greg Whelehan said:


> Harry:
> What dogs do you currently have in your breeding program.... I mean kennel? What's their pedigrees? Any videos of your dogs training yet? I'd love to see them.


I have three at my house, two I'm playing with and ones 9 thats here thats retired out living the rest of his life being that hes been here since 8 weeks old, there either loose,crated or in a outdoor kennel. Don't have time for a breeding program Greg. Have done very,very few breedings for I have a business and family to keep healthy during this wonderful economic time. Plus the chance of a relocation for me and the wife in the next year or so trying to get down to two. Their pedigrees consist of Dutch lines. Told you and everybody else when I have video available I will post it, but not a big priority for me to be honest. Now back on topic of what dogs are out there to breed to. Angel ( pedigree is on this thread ) is nice the two boys are either to old or two young to satisfy breeding at this time so not going to waste peoples time. 

You got some nice dogs how are they doing and are they in your eyes breeders / workers?


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Harry Keely said:


> I have three at my house, two I'm playing with and ones 9 thats here thats retired out living the rest of his life being that hes been here since 8 weeks old, there either loose,crated or in a outdoor kennel. Don't have time for a breeding program Greg. Have done very,very few breedings for I have a business and family to keep healthy during this wonderful economic time. Plus the chance of a relocation for me and the wife in the next year or so trying to get down to two. Their pedigrees consist of Dutch lines. Told you and everybody else when I have video available I will post it, but not a big priority for me to be honest. Now back on topic of what dogs are out there to breed to. Angel ( pedigree is on this thread ) is nice the two boys are either to old or two young to satisfy breeding at this time so not going to waste peoples time.
> 
> You got some nice dogs how are they doing and are they in your eyes breeders / workers?


Now Greg's got Video!! Hmmm.....I would say they are workers most definately, love the videos....but they are his dogs and he can comment.

I looked at Angel's pedigree, really doesn't say much, do you know anything further? 


There is another thread going on now talking about KNPV differences.......just because the dog works, doesn't mean it is good for breeding in my eyes and sometimes even if the dog isn't the best worker but has the character I am looking for I will try it. Some lines are easy to train and score high in trial with whatever sport and others score lousy if at all. I beleive someone said once before I want a dog that is extremem in ALL areas for breeding so if he only gives me 50% at breeding it will be better than most. 

there are a number of super nice dogs I have seen, and probably know the lines, however what good is it, unless I have seen consistency in the line with proven results...

Not busting your balls on your litter, but here is how I think, you had all the pups go to working homes of some nature.....congrads on that and good looking out for the welfare of the pups not to mention for future results....as of right now, they are less than a year, regardless of the trainer they are with, without past proven results on your female and/or male, there is no good or bad yet other than they are in working homes and anyone and everyone does that and uses that as marketing. 

Now in a couple years all the dogs are working well, health and work maintains and you see some consistency within the litter and if this is the type of dog you want/like, then you have something, right now, its nothing, nothing proven, first breeding. Not a bad thing, but in my eyes thats what it is. 

Some people like what they have in temperment, drive and character but will outcross sometimes to get size in their lines, hence the Great Dane and Pit Bulls overseas.....I saw a dog last week thats grandfather was straight pitbull and this was a malinois that looked like a malinois on steroids....now in a few years breeding back to malinois, it may taper off, but that breeder may or may not have got what he wanted who knows.....

oh yeah this thread is about what lines other than the common right.......well there was this dog named focker.........


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Jody Butler said:


> Now Greg's got Video!! Hmmm.....I would say they are workers most definately, love the videos....but they are his dogs and he can comment.
> 
> I looked at Angel's pedigree, really doesn't say much, do you know anything further?
> 
> ...


Nope don't have more on her nor does anybody else to my knowledge with the exception of what Dick & Selena added to Atos which was nice of them. But those lines tied to other lines have produce nice to great additions of all levels of club and higher so far.

As far as what your saying yes I agree 100% with everything, no busting balls taken, If you make sense in which you do then please speak your mind, this is a open forum. All I'm just trying to do is broaden the minds of all including myself on what will and what won't help keep the DS & Mali Strong by maybe introducing new dogs. We should all keep a open mind to what to add to what exist thats great already you know.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Greg Whelehan said:


> Harry:
> What dogs do you currently have in your breeding program.... I mean kennel? What's their pedigrees? Any videos of your dogs training yet? I'd love to see them.


For all of you that have been waiting for my under cover breeding program HAHAHAHA\\/:mrgreen:, nothing special but this is what I have you might like or might not folks but here ya go. Just found these videos of some of the pups. Enjoy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9eVqEKtn7E
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pU1nravzO60
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VvnYqJ8VLC0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SovmWXox3X0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8aAoWyMdrWY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V5w3xo977MY


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## Rik Wolterbeek (Jul 19, 2009)

Harry Keely said:


> I honestly don't know so don't want to say yes and don't want to say no, I will try to find out though? Who is Dian? Is Rick up in the Illinois area or if not where is he now?


Dianne lives in FL and out of the dogs and I live in IL. You should know Harry I PM'ed you a couple times in the past when you were advertising your Seminar I think in the begining of this year

Rik Wolterbeek


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## Rik Wolterbeek (Jul 19, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> Rik is in IL...we are going to hopefully train together sometime soon I think....


Joby, we are having a Schutzhund open day in Leland IL on August 29. You and everybody interested is more than welcome. 

Rik Wolterbeek, 815 713 7000


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Rik Wolterbeek said:


> Dianne lives in FL and out of the dogs and I live in IL. You should know Harry I PM'ed you a couple times in the past when you were advertising your Seminar I think in the begining of this year
> 
> Rik Wolterbeek


Yea kinda of remember, sorry about that Rik if someone never got back to you. We had a bunch of emails go out and I guess you weren't the only one that didn't recieve a email back for one reason or another wheter being a typo in the email adress or just for some reason never got one. We ended up post poning it and still have not come up with a date for the future or if we are even going to hold one. Two of the guys ended up taking contracts out of country and there not sure if there even going to move back to the area or not. If it does break free though we or I will get in touch with all the people that showed interest for wanting in or maybe helping if need be. Other than I have no excuse and apologize in advance.


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

One popular line of Malinois in the KNPV is the Boy and Robbie Beckhaus. I havent seen anything of them myself.
Another line of strong dogs is Breston Massop.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Christopher Jones said:


> One popular line of Malinois in the KNPV is the Boy and Robbie Beckhaus. I havent seen anything of them myself.
> Another line of strong dogs is Breston Massop.


Yea Boy and Robbie Backhaus are nice dogs, Boy was the one I was refering ot in the very beginning. I think Greg from Upsatek-9 has had Boy Progeny.

Breston I have heard of and know nothing about other than hes passed but was a nice dog, reconize a few dogs in his pedigree. Did you ever get to see him in real life or in videos Chris? Do you know if he was a good reproducer of himself?


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Harry Keely said:


> Yea Boy and Robbie Backhaus are nice dogs, Boy was the one I was refering ot in the very beginning. I think Greg from Upsatek-9 has had Boy Progeny.





Harry Keely said:


> Breston I have heard of and know nothing about other than hes passed but was a nice dog, reconize a few dogs in his pedigree. Did you ever get to see him in real life or in videos Chris? Do you know if he was a good reproducer of himself?




Oh, I thought you were refering to my Boy.....\\/ Just joking.
I havent seen any video of Breston, but I have spoken to Massop about him. 
This is what Massop said.

"In 1995 I bought Bongo’s father Breston. At the time he was 2 years old and 6 other handlers tried to manage him. He was extremely tough and most of the training we did with two nylon lines, some electric and some bull whip work. I couldn’t sell him after the certification because all officers were afraid."
"I moved for one year ago so I let the old 14 year Breston in the ground at Vierhouten my former living place. Breston’s father Billy was also 14 years"

Breston is good blood for sure. He was bred alot to Rambo daughers and produced a male called Bongo. Bongo was extremely strong, big and good looking. I tried to buy semen from Bongo when he was ten years old but Massop wasnt so willing to do it. My friend here in Australia has a Bongo daughter which he is very happy with. There are also so very good males in the litter.


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Christopher Jones said:


> Oh, I thought you were refering to my Boy.....\\/ Just joking.
> I havent seen any video of Breston, but I have spoken to Massop about him.
> This is what Massop said.
> 
> ...


I know/knew Breston and Bongo very well. Breston could make certificat becaue of the club Alois (Massop) was traning at that moment. The club from Jan Langemaat (who I know very well). They know how to handle tough dogs. And train, as you guys call that, "old school", like I do. We also appriciate the same kind of dogs. Jan also trained with Selena's father at the time he had Rambo.Jan had Sjakie, a brother (other liter) from Breston. 
Our female Donna ( X-Mal) is out of those bloolines.

Bongo was trained by a man called Flip Pijpers. Also a strong dog. And like Alois told. They made the combi Breston and Sjakie a lot with Rambo females. One of the good producing females was Kiki from Jan Langemaat. (Also the grandmother from Arko and Ringo)

Also a line of dogs producing "real" policedogs, more than the "sporty" kind.

Dick


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## Ellen Piepers (Nov 6, 2008)

Harry Keely said:


> What did you like and what did you not like if any, Do you have the dogs bloodline number if there is one.


BRN 10033. Strong dog, strong presence. Great attacks. We know the handler, he's not the softest of handlers... There's some offspring in our area.


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> I know/knew Breston and Bongo very well. Breston could make certificat becaue of the club Alois (Massop) was traning at that moment. The club from Jan Langemaat (who I know very well). They know how to handle tough dogs. And train, as you guys call that, "old school", like I do. We also appriciate the same kind of dogs. Jan also trained with Selena's father at the time he had Rambo.Jan had Sjakie, a brother (other liter) from Breston.
> Our female Donna ( X-Mal) is out of those bloolines.
> 
> Bongo was trained by a man called Flip Pijpers. Also a strong dog. And like Alois told. They made the combi Breston and Sjakie a lot with Rambo females. One of the good producing females was Kiki from Jan Langemaat. (Also the grandmother from Arko and Ringo)
> ...


Langemaat has had some strong dogs for sure, and alot of the dogs from these lines of Massop and Langemaat are very good looking dogs as well. 
I also heard good things of Dino te Pas, who also is a Breston and Rambo grandson.
It looks like Breston x Rambo is a good cross.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Christopher Jones said:


> Oh, I thought you were refering to my Boy.....\\/ Just joking.
> I havent seen any video of Breston, but I have spoken to Massop about him.
> This is what Massop said.
> 
> ...


Yea how is your Boy doing speaking off dogs, still working hard for ya. Hows his progeny doing so far even though they are young.

If those bloodlines ever come around sounds like it would be nice for you to get semen off of to have those lines again.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Ellen Piepers said:


> BRN 10033. Strong dog, strong presence. Great attacks. We know the handler, he's not the softest of handlers... There's some offspring in our area.


Cool, thanks just looked at it, nice lines, what do the offspring look like and how old are they?


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## Ellen Piepers (Nov 6, 2008)

Harry Keely said:


> Cool, thanks just looked at it, nice lines, what do the offspring look like and how old are they?


If you check the children on www.bloedlijnen.nl (select tab "Kinderen"), you can see 3. Next week we'll be attending a competetion of an association of knpv-clubs in our area (Kring) and I expect some of the owners to be there too. I'll ask around for you, if I get the chance.


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Harry Keely said:


> Yea how is your Boy doing speaking off dogs, still working hard for ya. Hows his progeny doing so far even though they are young.
> 
> If those bloodlines ever come around sounds like it would be nice for you to get semen off of to have those lines again.


Boys doing good. Havent done any training since he snapped his k9, but I should start again with him soon. Im very happy with his pups as well.

I am going through the process of collecting semen from a couple of new dogs in Holland, so I hope all goes well. I dont want to mention any names, due to the fact that most stuff ends up going pear shaped when I even think of talking about it. 

Another dog who did get some breedings, but was one ugly mother ****er, was Laron Roelofs. 
Pecco Pegge was a big influence on the KNPV dogs, where he got around 200-300 breedings. I wouldnt double up too close on Pecco, but a little brings something to the table.
Theres Jack Puts bloodlines, which I dont know too much about, but there is a number of titled generations of his dogs. Maybe Dick might know a little more about them?


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

A mali who´s getting popular as stud is Berry II from Bert Lamers brn 13062. 

Don´t know the dog or have seen him work, but have heard good stories.


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> A mali who´s getting popular as stud is Berry II from Bert Lamers brn 13062.
> 
> Don´t know the dog or have seen him work, but have heard good stories.


Hes got a tonn of breedings. Apparently he has a litter brother with an FCI pedigree....:-$


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## todd pavlus (Apr 30, 2008)

Harry Keely said:


> Yea Boy and Robbie Backhaus are nice dogs, Boy was the one I was refering ot in the very beginning. I think Greg from Upsatek-9 has had Boy Progeny.


I believe Boy just recently had to be PTS. Ben who is a member of the forum has a 
Backhaus dog he got from Greg. In training for FR. Nice dog. Still very young


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## Ellen Piepers (Nov 6, 2008)

We bred a Berry II litter end 2008 and kept a male (other male stayed in our knpv club, a female in our village). Not the easiest of dogs, very powerfull grip. Social dogs generally speaking, but don't accept being treated unjustly. Very good nose too, but grandfather on mother's side is GSD so that might have to do with it. Have seen other good offspring in the area too.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Yea I have seen Berry II alot on the bloodline site doing alot of breedings, Also like some of Mr. Puts dogs like luc,boy & Kira. I have heard that this produces nices dogs.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

todd pavlus said:


> I believe Boy just recently had to be PTS. Ben who is a member of the forum has a
> Backhaus dog he got from Greg. In training for FR. Nice dog. Still very young


Yea I thought he had one, do you see these lines from seeing what you can see in person being something of some substantial in the future even though the dog is young, is he showing promise Todd?


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Christopher Jones said:


> Boys doing good. Havent done any training since he snapped his k9, but I should start again with him soon. Im very happy with his pups as well.
> 
> I am going through the process of collecting semen from a couple of new dogs in Holland, so I hope all goes well. I dont want to mention any names, due to the fact that most stuff ends up going pear shaped when I even think of talking about it.
> 
> ...


Glad his pups are working out so far, thats always a good thing to here. I can understand not wanting to mention names one bit. Just taliking in general here but I think some people get on here just to try to make others try to feel like somethings wrong when everything is right to make them justufy what they have done right on this forum. So you got my respect in wanting to keep things under wrap.


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## todd pavlus (Apr 30, 2008)

Harry Keely said:


> Yea I thought he had one, do you see these lines from seeing what you can see in person being something of some substantial in the future even though the dog is young, is he showing promise Todd?


Genetically the dog is nice. He would excell in any working environment. He is showing good progress in the sport chosen which is FR. There is a great mix of different KNPV line dogs at Upstate K9.


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## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> Really don't know.
> 
> At this moment all/mosl x DS studs/litters in Holland (on bloedlijnen.nl) are related to our dogs (Robbie/Rocky) or Castor or Arras/Rudie Pegge.
> x DS in Germany are mainly from MR Bunker (Tommy son/Rocky grandson) and Arras/Rudie Pegge.
> Not many x DS in Belgium, a few from our breedings and a kennel(van het ittertal) who shows x DS to get confirmation and later FCI pedigree. They also use the named bloodlines.




Castor de goot?


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

todd pavlus said:


> Genetically the dog is nice. He would excell in any working environment. He is showing good progress in the sport chosen which is FR. There is a great mix of different KNPV line dogs at Upstate K9.


Yea Greg has some nice dogs, been to the website a time or two.


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Matt Grosch said:


> Castor de goot?


 Castor de Groot indeed,also father of Arko/Ringo.


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## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> Castor de Groot indeed,also father of Arko/Ringo.




interesting, when I was talking to a Dutch police Lt I told him my dog was castor lines, he said there were many dogs named castor and didnt know which one, but it sounds like de goot may be 'the' castor, next time we will be able to talk more in depth


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## Loring Cox (Sep 6, 2008)

Castor de Groot is the sire of my partner. He is also in his dam side. Isn't your dog from MS? If so, that should be the same Castor.


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## Ben Haley (Nov 30, 2008)

I would be interested to know more about the langemaat lines ie jacques and sjakie etc if anyone has any further information on these dogs or the type of dogs they produced it would be appreciated


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Ben Haley said:


> I would be interested to know more about the langemaat lines ie jacques and sjakie etc if anyone has any further information on these dogs or the type of dogs they produced it would be appreciated


 hard, tough dogs, big. Jan prefers same dogs as Rambo/Breston bloodlines


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Matt Grosch said:


> interesting, when I was talking to a Dutch police Lt I told him my dog was castor lines, he said there were many dogs named castor and didnt know which one, but it sounds like de goot may be 'the' castor, next time we will be able to talk more in depth


Castor is a common name. 
But was the lt only a handler or also a trainer/breeder? That depends if it comes to bloodline knowledge.


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