# Sharpened Prong Collars ??



## maggie fraser

Leading on from a thread asking (in the ob forum) on where/how to acquire a sharpened prong collar, would someone care to share why and where these collars are used.

This thread is open for debate and discussion, unlike the last one.


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## Brian Anderson

Maggie I have never seen or used one myself. But if a regular prong collar isnt getting it done I cant imagine that a sharper one will do any better. In fact I can see where a sharp one could bring out bad things in certain dogs. The prong collar is one of the most mis used and mis understood tools out there. JMHO


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## maggie fraser

I've never seen one in use before, I did have a conversation with someone who told me they used one when they're ordinary prong wasn't being too effective. I didn't really pursue the conversation much and hadn't thought too much about it until this topic was raised here on the board.

I'll add, that same person was not a harsh trainer in my opinion, at least not in the time I did see them train. I've heard they are widely used in knpv?


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## maggie fraser

Brian Anderson said:


> Maggie I have never seen or used one myself. But if a regular prong collar isnt getting it done I cant imagine that a sharper one will do any better. In fact I can see where a sharp one could bring out bad things in certain dogs. The prong collar is one of the most mis used and mis understood tools out there. JMHO


Thanks for the input Brian, I was wondering if I was going to be having this discussion all by myself :smile:.


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## Thomas Barriano

When my prong corrections aren't effective I'd go to the next size smaller prongs. 
more prongs = more effective correction


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## maggie fraser

Thomas Barriano said:


> When my prong corrections aren't effective I'd go to the next size smaller prongs.
> more prongs = more effective correction


 
What about sharpened prongs?


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## Pete Stevens

Sharpened prong collars are not a good idea IMO. There is a difference between causing discomfort during a correction and intentionally causing an injury. Smaller prongs are the way to go. Like someone said before me, more prongs means more pinch. An e-collar might be helpful to get your point accross but I'd stay away from sharpening the prongs. We do a lot of things that the un-educated public sees are too harsh, but with some explaining most of them don't have issues. No explaining away the sharpened prongs.


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## maggie fraser

Are sharpened prongs a coy subject ? I'm interested in the fact I would suspect they would break the skin and allow in infection etc. maybe that's the idea....a swollen and infected neck so it hurts just that wee bit more maybe ?? Or maybe they don't break the skin, but the correction is of a higher level which is required ?

Either they're ok to use, or they're not? And if they're ok to use, they're ok to talk about ?

The silence is deafening!


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## maggie fraser

It appears folks with apparent experience haven't held back in offering pointers (pardon the pun) in how to achieve a sharpened prong, yet appear unwilling to engage in conversation in their use.

I'm aware it could perhaps be a sensitive issue for some, but I'm genuinely interested in it's application, and I'm sure others are too.


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## Gerry Grimwood

maggie fraser said:


> The silence is deafening!


Typically used in sports requiring "focused" obedience that can't be obtained otherwise by some. Also parking lot pep talks to amp up before protection....

I dunno, I'm just guessing.


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## maggie fraser

Gerry Grimwood said:


> Typically used in sports requiring "focused" obedience that can't be obtained otherwise by some. Also parking lot pep talks to amp up before protection....
> 
> I dunno, I'm just guessing.


I know of it's use in schH where the focus is on ob as you've said, but have heard that it is widely used, maybe even the norm in knpv.


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## Thomas Barriano

maggie fraser said:


> What about sharpened prongs?


Regular prongs have blunt ends. Some people think that making the ends pointed increases their effectiveness. I disagree and see NO need for them. More likely to cause injury then anything else.


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## Gerry Grimwood

maggie fraser said:


> I know of it's use in schH where the focus is on ob as you've said, but have heard that it is widely used, maybe even the norm in knpv.


I can't see how they would use it in KNPV, allegedly those dogs are so tough you'd have to have them in a branding chute when you applied the stim.


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## Peter Cavallaro

yep sharpened prong collars, international franchises selling e-collar courses for foundation training pets - more technolgy to compensate for sh*t trainers. i bet 10 years n your sports will all be banned.


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## maggie fraser

Thomas Barriano said:


> Regular prongs have blunt ends. Some people think that making the ends pointed increases their effectiveness. I disagree and see NO need for them. More likely to cause injury then anything else.


 
The people who have experience of them could perhaps elaborate for those of us who don't, after all many are here to discuss training.


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## maggie fraser

Peter Cavallaro said:


> yep sharpened prong collars, international franchises selling e-collar courses for foundation training pets - more technolgy to compensate for sh*t trainers. i bet 10 years n your sports will all be banned.


Pete, shut up! You're not helping this conversation. I'm looking to learn something if there is something to be learned.


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## Thomas Barriano

maggie fraser said:


> The people who have experience of them could perhaps elaborate for those of us who don't, after all many are here to discuss training.


Maybe, no one on the WDF uses sharpened prongs and you're wasting your time trying to stir up a discussion?


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## Ashley Campbell

Perhaps the lack of coming forward on their specific use is the fact that prong collars aren't exactly widely accepted in a lot of places to begin with, let alone a sharpened one? Aren't even blunt prongs banned in some areas? I think I read that about somewhere in Australia that they were but could be mistaken.

I haven't the slightest as to an answer for you though, I own a single very blunt prong collar (HS with big prongs) and it's more than enough to get my point across, so it mostly doesn't get used at all and I stick with the fursaver.


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## maggie fraser

Ashley Campbell said:


> Perhaps the lack of coming forward on their specific use is the fact that prong collars aren't exactly widely accepted in a lot of places to begin with, let alone a sharpened one? Aren't even blunt prongs banned in some areas? I think I read that about somewhere in Australia that they were but could be mistaken.


E collars aren't widely accepted in many places either, that's not the point. It doesn't stop discussion on this board does it? In fact if anything you may well get a colourful debate going. I haven't experience of ecollars, but I don't judge because I can begin to understand a little through the dialogue exchanged on this board.

Dialogue, discussion..... ??


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## Doug Zaga

QUOTE=maggie fraser;254179] would someone care to share why and where these collars are used.

This thread is open for debate and discussion, unlike the last one.[/QUOTE]

Hi Magster what size is your neck? :evil:


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## maggie fraser

Doug Zaga said:


> QUOTE=maggie fraser;254179] would someone care to share why and where these collars are used.
> 
> This thread is open for debate and discussion, unlike the last one.


Hi Magster what size is your neck? :evil:[/QUOTE]

Probably smaller than your thumb but bigger than your dick.


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## Jim Nash

Maggie , I'm with you , I'd like to know why someone would want to use one also. But with the one person wanting to use one on here not talking about it I don't think I want to know the answer anymore. In a way I think her silence speaks louder then words .


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## Doug Zaga

maggie fraser said:


> Hi Magster what size is your neck? :evil:


Probably smaller than your thumb but bigger than your dick.[/QUOTE]

:---) half truth Mags.. heard through the grapevine your neck is bigger than my Rotti"s ;-)


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## Ashley Campbell

maggie fraser said:


> E collars aren't widely accepted in many places either, that's not the point. It doesn't stop discussion on this board does it? In fact if anything you may well get a colourful debate going. I haven't experience of ecollars, but I don't judge because I can begin to understand a little through the dialogue exchanged on this board.
> 
> Dialogue, discussion..... ??


Not going to argue with you today, I'm not in the mood, it was just a suggestion. Don't get your panties in a twist over it.

That being said, there's probably a reason you can't just get on google and buy one pre-sharpened...


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## maggie fraser

Doug Zaga said:


> Probably smaller than your thumb but bigger than your dick.


:---) half truth Mags.. heard through the grapevine your neck is bigger than my Rotti"s ;-)[/QUOTE]

Do you use a sharpened prong Doug? And have you ever used one on a dog ??

There are many on here have I'm sure.....cat's got their tongue! Maybe they're scared of being judged? Or....maybe they don't like to let go of the magic in their secrets.


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## Doug Zaga

No Mags...


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## Kadi Thingvall

Thomas Barriano said:


> When my prong corrections aren't effective I'd go to the next size smaller prongs.


Compare the diameter of the metal pieces/wire used to make the prong in the smaller collars to the sized used in the larger collars. The next size smaller prongs don't just have more prongs to correct with, the diameter also does have an effect. Poke yourself with each of them, you'll feel the difference.

"Sharpening" a prong is one way to get the effect of the smaller collar while still having the strength of the larger collar. I like the effect I can get with the smaller prongs with some dogs, but have also had them bend and the collar fall off the dog during use. I'm not sure where it is anymore, but somewhere I have a prong collar I sharpened for this reason. The tips of each prong are still blunt, I didn't sharpen them into a needle point, but I did narrow them down to more closely mimic the diameter of the prong on the smaller collar. If I can find it I'll post a photo of it.


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## maggie fraser

Doug Zaga said:


> No Mags...


At your age, no extra stimulus required ?? Not even a little extra prick here and there ??


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## maggie fraser

Ashley Campbell said:


> Not going to argue with you today, I'm not in the mood, it was just a suggestion. Don't get your panties in a twist over it.
> 
> That being said, there's probably a reason you can't just get on google and buy one pre-sharpened...


 
It wasn't a very good suggestion was it then Ashley?? Anything else productive you'd like to add ???


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## Ashley Campbell

Kadi Thingvall said:


> Compare the diameter of the metal pieces/wire used to make the prong in the smaller collars to the sized used in the larger collars. The next size smaller prongs don't just have more prongs to correct with, the diameter also does have an effect. Poke yourself with each of them, you'll feel the difference.
> 
> "Sharpening" a prong is one way to get the effect of the smaller collar while still having the strength of the larger collar. I like the effect I can get with the smaller prongs with some dogs, but have also had them bend and the collar fall off the dog during use. I'm not sure where it is anymore, but somewhere I have a prong collar I sharpened for this reason. The tips of each prong are still blunt, I didn't sharpen them into a needle point, but I did narrow them down to more closely mimic the diameter of the prong on the smaller collar. If I can find it I'll post a photo of it.


So it's not exactly sharp, it's just thinned down to a smaller diameter then? Now that kind of makes sense vs having Freddy Kruger claws on a dog collar.



> It wasn't a very good suggestion was it then Ashley?? Anything else productive you'd like to add ???


Yep, I have plenty I'd like to add but it'd get me banned. Go have a drink and mellow out a little.


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## maggie fraser

Kadi Thingvall said:


> Compare the diameter of the metal pieces/wire used to make the prong in the smaller collars to the sized used in the larger collars. The next size smaller prongs don't just have more prongs to correct with, the diameter also does have an effect. Poke yourself with each of them, you'll feel the difference.
> 
> "Sharpening" a prong is one way to get the effect of the smaller collar while still having the strength of the larger collar. I like the effect I can get with the smaller prongs with some dogs, but have also had them bend and the collar fall off the dog during use. I'm not sure where it is anymore, but somewhere I have a prong collar I sharpened for this reason. The tips of each prong are still blunt, I didn't sharpen them into a needle point, but I did narrow them down to more closely mimic the diameter of the prong on the smaller collar. If I can find it I'll post a photo of it.


 
Thankyou Kadi, first pro response.

I'll add though, when folks speak of a sharpened prong, they're talking about sharpening the prongs into a point.


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## Doug Zaga

maggie fraser said:


> At your age, no extra stimulus required ?? Not even a little extra prick here and there ??


Awww Mags..the OLD jowels hanging keep you lonely at night your always worried about my pecker size and it's capabilities.... :mrgreen:


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## Kadi Thingvall

maggie fraser said:


> I'll add though, when folks speak of a sharpened prong, they're talking about sharpening the prongs into a point.


I'm sure they are. I've seen those collars, and yes, I used one a few times. But I didn't find that I got any better response with it than I did with the blunted ends, and it did do damage. 

I do think the theory holds true on why they work, narrowed but blunted or really sharpened. It's the smaller surface area on the skin that is getting more response from the dog, which IMO is part of why you can get more response going to the smaller collars vs the larger ones.


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## Chris McDonald

Kadi Thingvall said:


> Compare the diameter of the metal pieces/wire used to make the prong in the smaller collars to the sized used in the larger collars. The next size smaller prongs don't just have more prongs to correct with, the diameter also does have an effect. Poke yourself with each of them, you'll feel the difference.
> 
> "Sharpening" a prong is one way to get the effect of the smaller collar while still having the strength of the larger collar. I like the effect I can get with the smaller prongs with some dogs, but have also had them bend and the collar fall off the dog during use. I'm not sure where it is anymore, but somewhere I have a prong collar I sharpened for this reason. The tips of each prong are still blunt, I didn't sharpen them into a needle point, but I did narrow them down to more closely mimic the diameter of the prong on the smaller collar. If I can find it I'll post a photo of it.


 
Well this at least has a bit of logic to it. I guess anytime you thin things down you can say you are sharpening them. I just don’t know if this was what the person who originally asked was getting at. That being said this stuff should only be done by people who know what they are doing. I see every ding a ling wife in my neighborhood being towed by their lab with the pinch collar all tight.


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## maggie fraser

Do sharpened prong collars break the skin ?


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## Joby Becker

I have seen them used, and my guy was just talking with us after K9 training about walking on Venice beach CA years ago and having some lady pet the dog...He said the people were very freaked out to even see a dog in a prong collar period. And when the lady actually tried to take OFF his prong collar, she felt that the tips were sharpened and started screaming for the police...LOL..

He and his wife got in the truck and left...

He said he did it for the same reason as Kadi stated. The Police handlers were asking about them, he recommended trying the smaller prong collars first.

The ones I saw were not sharpened to needle points but were sharpened to a blunt point similar to a the sharpness of a very large nail.


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## Chris McDonald

Do shock collars hurt on your balls?


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## leslie cassian

Chris McDonald said:


> Do shock collars hurt on your balls?


Dunno Chris, don't have any, but if you'd like to find out I'll volunteer to test my collar on yours.


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## maggie fraser

Alice, Alice. where the F*** is Alice ? :mrgreen:

Talk to me Alice.


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## Doug Zaga

maggie fraser said:


> Alice, Alice. where the F*** is Alice ? :mrgreen:
> 
> Talk to me Alice.


 
Here is Alice...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eipuJPgHFZk


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## Christopher Smith

maggie fraser said:


> Are sharpened prongs a coy subject ?


Sort of. As you can see, it makes people that have never seen one, much less used one, pipe up with their ignorant notions. Who want's to get into that BS? 

Why is it that people who say that they don't know jack shit about something, seem compelled to write about it? If you don't know, just step away from the keyboard. 



> I'm interested in the fact I would suspect they would break the skin and allow in infection etc. maybe that's the idea....a swollen and infected neck so it hurts just that wee bit more maybe ?? Or maybe they don't break the skin, but the correction is of a higher level which is required ?


As Kadi pointed out the tips are not sharped enough to cause an injury. They are ground down to a narrower circumference so that they have the same effect as a smaller pinch.

Right now I'm training a Tibetan Mastiff that has a coat so long and thick that a normal pinch was getting the same effect as a fur saver. But the sharpened prongs are long and thin enough to give a correction. With this dog it's great. 

And of course it can be abused. But so can every other piece of training equipment. 



> Either they're ok to use, or they're not? And if they're ok to use, they're ok to talk about ?
> 
> The silence is deafening!


Some people don't sit at the computer all day. :wink:


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## Chris McDonald

Christopher Smith said:


> Sort of. As you can see, it makes people that have never seen one, much less used one, pipe up with their ignorant notions. Who want's to get into that BS?
> 
> Probably had something to do with the person who originally asked the questions lack of an explanation. Although some of you explained there may be a need for them if used properly, I am still not sure that was the original reason for the question and I am sure these can very easily be misused.


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## maggie fraser

"Some people don't sit at the computer all day. :wink:"


For someone who doesn't sit on the computer all day, you sure have a lot to say!

That was arrogant, patronising, and uncalled for.

eta; but we can play Chris if you really want to.


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## tracey schneider

Chris McDonald said:


> Christopher Smith said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sort of. As you can see, it makes people that have never seen one, much less used one, pipe up with their ignorant notions. Who want's to get into that BS?
> 
> Probably had something to do with the person who originally asked the questions lack of an explanation. Although some of you explained there may be a need for them if used properly, I am still not sure that was the original reason for the question and I am sure these can very easily be misused.
> 
> 
> 
> All anyone had to do.was send me a pm as stated. I have nothing to hide but fear of a poor explanation on my part. Is there anyone who.got a pm from me that thinks I'm out to hurt my dog or poke holes in his neck... feel free to speak up..... really. I asked if they could be purchased for the sole reason that I don't want to DIY wrong and injure my dog. Geez I've been more hurt by my dogs stepping on my foot than I've ever hurt one of them.
> 
> T
Click to expand...


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## tracey schneider

Chris and kadi thanks for posting....


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## Christopher Smith

Joby Becker said:


> I have seen them used, and my guy was just talking with us after K9 training about walking on Venice beach CA years ago and having some lady pet the dog...He said the people were very freaked out to even see a dog in a prong collar period. And when the lady actually tried to take OFF his prong collar, she felt that the tips were sharpened and started screaming for the police...LOL..


Freak incident. I lived in Venice for 20 years and always walk my dogs on pinch collars. I have never had a negative issue with anyone about it. Nor have any of my clients. At the most I have had inquiring question about the pinch collar and it's use. 

BTW, It's 65 degrees today with blue skies from the snow on the mountains to surf at the beach. \\/\\/

http://www.panoramablick.com/index.php?cam_id=818&kat_id=1112&nav_id=1108&action=showkat&lang=de

http://watchthewater.org/beach.cfm?bid=48


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## Christopher Smith

maggie fraser said:


> "Some people don't sit at the computer all day. :wink:"
> 
> 
> For someone who doesn't sit on the computer all day, you sure have a lot to say!
> 
> That was arrogant, patronising, and uncalled for.
> 
> eta; but we can play Chris if you really want to.


Sure, what do you want to play? You seem like the Dungeons and Dragons type to me.

But remember I can't play too much 'cause I don't sit at the computer all day.


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## maggie fraser

Christopher Smith said:


> Sure what do you want to play? You seem like the Dungeons and Dragons type to me.
> 
> But remember I can't play too much 'cause I don't sit at the computer all day.


Your input was one but not all on the use of sharpened prong. Do you think that what you have to say is the be all and end all.....you mention you've spent time around the world....yet you sound like someone who really hasn't gotten out much at all. Why is that ??

Thanks for YOur input and experience of a sharpened prong use....don't assume that's only how it is.....or you'll be sounding more ignorant than I.


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## Gerry Grimwood

Kadi Thingvall said:


> "Sharpening" a prong is one way to get the effect of the smaller collar while still having the strength of the larger collar. I like the effect I can get with the smaller prongs with some dogs, but have also had them bend and the collar fall off the dog during use.


The smaller 3 mm ones are abit spaghetti-ish but I think most sharpen for other reasons. Sharpening/turning down an average of 8 links..16 points 1 mm in diameter is too time consuming.


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## Christopher Smith

maggie fraser said:


> Your input was one but not all on the use of sharpened prong. Do you think that what you have to say is the be all and end all.....you mention you've spent time around the world....yet you sound like someone who really hasn't gotten out much at all. Why is that ??


Maybe I'm just plain stupid. What's your excuse? 



> Thanks for YOur input and experience of a sharpened prong use....don't assume that's only how it is.....or you'll be sounding more ignorant than I.


I'll have to work hard to reach the levels you have. But maybe with hard work and perseverance I can get there. Will you mentor me? I know you're always a few keystrokes away. :lol:


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## Joby Becker

Christopher Smith said:


> Freak incident. I lived in Venice for 20 years and always walk my dogs on pinch collars. I have never had a negative issue with anyone about it. Nor have any of my clients. At the most I have had inquiring question about the pinch collar and it's use.
> 
> BTW, It's 65 degrees today with blue skies from the snow on the mountains to surf at the beach. \\/\\/
> 
> http://www.panoramablick.com/index.php?cam_id=818&kat_id=1112&nav_id=1108&action=showkat&lang=de
> 
> http://watchthewater.org/beach.cfm?bid=48


That was a true story, not a shot at Cali.. I get the same treatment at petsmart with an ecollar and a muzzle.


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## maggie fraser

Christopher Smith said:


> Maybe I'm just plain stupid. What's your excuse?
> 
> I'll have to work hard to reach the levels you have. But maybe with hard work and perseverance I can get there. Will you mentor me? I know you're always a few keystrokes away. :lol:


My excuse is this; I have asked a pretty straight forward question, my experience is very limited, admittedly.

I haven't had much in the way of answers...you gave yours, thankyou....next?


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## Joby Becker




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## maggie fraser

Which one looks hand made of Joby's pics? The advice on here was diy, have a go yourself, not machine made and uniform.


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## Joby Becker

I cant find that online picture I saw of an old leather collar with 2-3 inch spikes like nails on the inside.

Schweikert makes a lather slip with sharpened spikes (the first picture)..

If I was going to need one I would get a large HS prong and sharpen the tips with a dremel or grinding wheel, then file the tips down some, so they were not too sharp.


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## maggie fraser

So why and when would you use it Joby? And does it break/bruise the skin if you have experience already?


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## Christopher Smith

Joby Becker said:


> That was a true story, not a shot at Cali.


 Cool. Just wanted put it out there that that's not the norm in my experience. 

I'm also being the a-hole and wanted to rub it in about the weather. :wink:


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## Christopher Smith

maggie fraser said:


> My excuse is this; I have asked a pretty straight forward question, my experience is very limited, admittedly.
> 
> I haven't had much in the way of answers...you gave yours, thankyou....next?


AAwwww....You don't want to play anymore? Did your 20 sided dice roll under your Bay City Rollers boxed set?


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## Joby Becker

Christopher Smith said:


> Cool. Just wanted put it out there that that's not the norm in my experience.
> 
> I'm also being the a-hole and wanted to rub it in about the weather. :wink:


yeah all the rain just froze overnight, we had detours galore today, tons of accidents and my GF fell on the porch steps and hurt her butt...

She came home from work and told me that her Butt hurt...I told her if she stopped sticking things in there it wouldn't hurt so much


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## maggie fraser

Christopher Smith said:


> AAwwww....You don't want to play anymore? Did you 20 sided dice roll under your Bay City Rollers boxed set?


 
I'll play alright if you've got an interesting enough game....you're surely hanging about your computer, time to play but not time to talk huh? .


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## Jerry Cudahy

Joby Becker said:


>


Yikes, they are all chockers


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## maggie fraser

Wot's a chocker? Canadian slang ??


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## maggie fraser

Christopher Smith said:


> AAwwww....You don't want to play anymore? Did your 20 sided dice roll under your Bay City Rollers boxed set?


You're absolutely right, I was thinking of sapping out but have thought better of it. You know, the manager of the Bay City Rollers was recently done for paedophilia? Young boys....he's in jail now.


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## Joby Becker

maggie fraser said:


> So why and when would you use it Joby? And does it break/bruise the skin if you have experience already?


I personally have never had to use one.

I have seen them used to control, hard to control dogs. I have seen them used on dogs with long hair and thick coats that needed something more than a regular pinch to get effective corrections.

I have also seen them used for heeling work..

I imagine if the dog ran to the end of the leash they could break the skin, or if dog was strung up, or choked real hard with them. I have seen some that were sharper than others.

I have never seen one puncture a dogs neck. Most of the time I saw them used, it took very moderate corrections, not strong ones...they got the dogs attention with light taps..


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## Mike Scheiber

Chris McDonald said:


> Do shock collars hurt on your balls?


How about that video of your boys you posted some time back with the e-collars thats worth another round WDF Jack Ass style


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## Pete Stevens

I've had people complain about the prong collars but those are usually the same people who don't think we should send dogs out to search for bad guys because they might get hurt. The nylon covers help some folks feel better about using them. I just go out and train. 

I've only seen one sharpened prong collar and I didn't see any greater effect than a regular blunt end.


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## Patty Pignataro

I used one 25 years ago before e-collars were popular.
Big super hard rottie that wouldnt out.
The prongs were sharpened like some one else said not as sharp as a big nail point. We had to do some pretty serious corrections and never broke the skin. Also not every single prong was sharpened. The smaller collars with more prongs flattened and were useless.
By the way it did work and the dog was not harmed and never cryed when corrected , it what was needed to get thru to her in drive.
I thought it was pretty much a antique training tool at this stage of the game.


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## Mike Scheiber

maggie fraser said:


> Leading on from a thread asking (in the ob forum) on where/how to acquire a sharpened prong collar, would someone care to share why and where these collars are used.
> 
> This thread is open for debate and discussion, unlike the last one.


I made mine and I used it on my Rottweiler for a force retrieve. One of my training partners is/was using it tracking keeping it very loose on the dog neck using 2 lines and when the dog changes speed the sharp one gets used with a small amount of tension dog slows down tension comes off.
Most times when tracking a tight line will cause the dog to pull harder the sharpen pinch doesn't need much tension to have a effect, this subtle correction shouldn't interrupt the dogs concentration and can even make the dog go deeper in concentration. You then transition this to your tracking line and in a emergency you have it to.............:wink:


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## Joby Becker

Patty Pignataro said:


> I used one 25 years ago before e-collars were popular.
> Big super hard rottie that wouldnt out.
> The prongs were sharpened like some one else said not as sharp as a big nail point. We had to do some pretty serious corrections and never broke the skin. Also not every single prong was sharpened. The smaller collars with more prongs flattened and were useless.
> By the way it did work and the dog was not harmed and never cryed when corrected , it what was needed to get thru to her in drive.
> I thought it was pretty much a antique training tool at this stage of the game.


Just to clarify I meant a BIG nail, usually BIG nails have blunted tips to avoid splitting boards. I have seen very sharp nails as well, should have clarified..


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## will fernandez

How many of you find that after a while of using the prong to try to reduce drives all it does is increase them? For examaple from using to out the dog... now he bites harder? Just asking..


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## Joby Becker

will fernandez said:


> How many of you find that after a while of using the prong to try to reduce drives all it does is increase them? For examaple from using to out the dog... now he bites harder? Just asking..


Since I missed the whole out for tug deal..dog is too old now...the tug is now invisible with decoy present.

doesnt work well on bite for me, prong works if decoy pulls dog into the bite. if it is just me correcting dog, makes things real messy. E collar is another thing that is working for now....

use prong for calloff..
use prong for recall in presence of decoy...
used prong to deter dog aggression worked well, but maybe too harshly.

It works just as well as ecollar for me for most things, as long s dog is not on the bite, but overall it is safer to use ecollar, have not had dog come at me on the ecollar yet, [-o< have had her come at me a few times with the prong...


----------



## Selena van Leeuwen

Its an old tool in the toolbox over "here".....
Suprised you "there" in "E-collarland" are so shocked about it......

I'm using them most of the time in some stage of training.
I'm sharpening them myself and they are real pointy. And yes they sometimes may dammage the dog in his neck.... Its always used in the "must-fase" and not in the "learning-fase". If used right, its a good tool to put/keep pressure with almost non/very little bodymovement/yerking.

Altough "ïf used right", counts for every tool. I don't want to see some people use THE button on an E-collar.....(sometimes the tool of a lazy trainer......)

Dick


----------



## Alice Bezemer

for fooks sake people....anyone ever heard of a TIMEDIFFERENCE !!!! we do tend to sleep when the other half of the world is of running their mouths making stupid assumptions on things they know sweet **** all about....

there now that Ive ranted Ill go on and do as asked of...

YES they are used here, matter of fact I have a shitload of them in different shapes and sizes for whatever purpose that I might need them at any time...are they sharp ? owyeah! I make sure they are....as Dick already mentioned they are an old tool in the toolbox that will be used if needed and not used if not needed...they sometimes damage the skin. I have never used them in the learning fase of a dogs training, they are used solely for the more stuborn dogs in the "must do" fase of training...the great benefit of this tool is the fact that the with very little presure you can get a lot accomplished from the dog...you dont YERK the collar or hang the dog with it, you dont choke it ior drag him around by it....

its also used with dogs with very tight fur.

I feel the reason most people wont admit or discuss using it is the overwhelming backlash it will get from the people who see such a collar and immediatly jump to stupid ignorant conslusions for themselves when in fact they have absolutly no clue what it is, how its used, or what they are talking about. 

Ive seen people call it retard(t)ed, ignorant, stupid, useless...hell I have even seen one person go out on a limb and immediatly condemn the users of such materials by saying its compensation for shit trainers....obviously an authority on dogtraining there....

Now most if not all people on here are going to cry abuse and evil trainers and bad dogowners and whatever else the hell they can come up with but the simple fact remains that they dont know how and what...and im going to say, cry away all you like, most are not willing to look any further then their own frontdoor to begin with so who the hell am I to try and change their mind huh ?

BTW: any tool can become a cluster ****up in the wrong hands, dont make assumptions when you dont have all the facts to begin with.


----------



## Alice Bezemer

will fernandez said:


> How many of you find that after a while of using the prong to try to reduce drives all it does is increase them? For examaple from using to out the dog... now he bites harder? Just asking..



Not meaning to be offensive but if that happens someone is using the prong the wrong way and keeping tention on it constantly which will give you this sort of behaviour....the dog will get used to the tention of the prongs on the throat and simply accept it as normal when infact there should never be tention on the leash when using the prong, you shouldnt be correcting the dog, the dog should correct itself.


----------



## Mike Scheiber

will fernandez said:


> How many of you find that after a while of using the prong to try to reduce drives all it does is increase them? For examaple from using to out the dog... now he bites harder? Just asking..


Helmut Raiser was one of the first to show Americans how to use pain as a tool not just as a compliance method so........................


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## Jerry Cudahy

will fernandez said:


> How many of you find that after a while of using the prong to try to reduce drives all it does is increase them? For examaple from using to out the dog... now he bites harder? Just asking..


 Yep can work that way. Only a small number of dogs respond this way.

It is a Turbo Boost on hgh end fighters.

A lot of these type of dogs will respond this way even if a flat collar is used.

More pain more boost


----------



## Jerry Cudahy

maggie fraser said:


> Wot's a chocker? Canadian slang ??


http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/chocker


----------



## Jerry Cudahy

Jerry Cudahy said:


> Yep can work that way. Only a small number of dogs respond this way.
> 
> It is a Turbo Boost on hgh end fighters.
> 
> A lot of these type of dogs will respond this way even if a flat collar is used.
> 
> More pain more boost


It is also a situation, that the dog might turn back on the handler. This is for advanced trainers to apply knowing the variable outcomes.


----------



## tracey schneider

Nice responses from those who have the experience. Definitely a few key points have been hit on for my reasoning in considering its use. I have ONE dog I am considering using it on. If and more than likely, when, I get one, it will have specific uses and not for everything. Im hoping it could benefit us where the e-collar is lacking in the high drive states by adding a touch of “personal” to it. I have also considered its use in areas of ob or tracking (not so much tracking) where for me (a female not so strong handler) can get a good correction without an exaggeration of physical effort. Where I can get a good correction in and neither of us changes position or loses stride. Calm and smooth and personal. 

t


----------



## Anita Griffing

Kadi had an excellent response. If anyone does sharpen a prong, it is best (IMO) to
do only one prong per set in a zig-zag pattern so as not to puncture anything. You have 
one blunt prong so as not to pierce anything. No matter what the tool if the dog is scoring well, 
and is obedient, and looks good then bravo. =D>
Anita


----------



## Alison Grubb

I have not personally used a sharpened prong collar though I know people who have and I have seen them used. I have yet to be worried by any of the applications that I have observed.

For whatever it is worth, I have seen Tracey and her dogs training several times. She is a very fair handler and I have never seen her do anything that caused me concern for the dogs. Her dogs are happy workers both on and off the field. I'm almost positive that I know exactly which dog she is thinking about using the sharpened prong on and I honestly think it is worth a try. Quite honestly, I am dang happy to see a bulldog who is not sensitive to the handler or the correction. I wish there were more like him out there. He's on a real short list of ABs that I really like.

As for the way people around here like to stir up drama under the guise of asking for an education - it's pretty amusing. It's not hard to see what your agenda is or where your bias lies.


----------



## Rina Rivamonte

Alison Grubb said:


> As for the way people around here like to stir up drama under the guise of asking for an education - it's pretty amusing. It's not hard to see what your agenda is or where your bias lies.


Whatever the intention Im glad it got asked. If you skim pass the bs you do learn something (at least I did).

Sent from my Droid 2 using Tapatalk


----------



## maggie fraser

Alison Grubb said:


> As for the way people around here like to stir up drama under the guise of asking for an education - it's pretty amusing. It's not hard to see what your agenda is or where your bias lies.


I'll assume that was intended for me. My approach was a little provocative I'll admit that, I suppose I got a little irked when the topic was originally posted but was not open for conversation. As for my agenda and where my bias lies, you are incorrect on your assumptions.

Ecollars are no different to sharpened prongs as far as I am concerned, I have no experience nor an opinion of either but I do enjoy to follow conversation on their application. it gives a lot of insight. 

A more tactful approach may have been in order, somehow I doubt I would have gotten much response though.

Thanks to those experienced posters for their frank and open responses.


----------



## Jerry Cudahy

I have a question for Tracey, who brought up the sharpened pinch.

Has she ever concidered a dazzer as a tool to try ?


----------



## Selena van Leeuwen

@ Jerry, what's a dazzer?

Dick answerd already: yes, I use sharpened prong in some stages of training.
will see if I can take a pic of the prongs we've.


----------



## will fernandez

replace D with T and drop a Z


----------



## tracey schneider

Jerry Cudahy said:


> I have a question for Tracey, who brought up the sharpened pinch.
> 
> Has she ever concidered a dazzer as a tool to try ?


Dont even know what it is lol... What is it?

t


----------



## tracey schneider

Alison Grubb said:


> I have not personally used a sharpened prong collar though I know people who have and I have seen them used. I have yet to be worried by any of the applications that I have observed.
> 
> For whatever it is worth, I have seen Tracey and her dogs training several times. She is a very fair handler and I have never seen her do anything that caused me concern for the dogs. Her dogs are happy workers both on and off the field. I'm almost positive that I know exactly which dog she is thinking about using the sharpened prong on and I honestly think it is worth a try. Quite honestly, I am dang happy to see a bulldog who is not sensitive to the handler or the correction. I wish there were more like him out there. He's on a real short list of ABs that I really like.
> 
> As for the way people around here like to stir up drama under the guise of asking for an education - it's pretty amusing. It's not hard to see what your agenda is or where your bias lies.


Thanks Alison, I appreciate that . The thought of me trying to hurt my dogs is almost funny... I LOVE my dogs! Im thinking there is way less conflict in a single good correction then a bunch of over exaggerated nagging corrections... each dog is different in how that is interpreted.... and yes you are 100% accurate on which dog  

t


----------



## Jerry Cudahy

tracey delin said:


> Dont even know what it is lol... What is it?
> 
> t


Ultra Sonic Device, costs about $35 and will out almost any dog off a bite. It has many uses. You can even repell a dog attack with one.

At one time the U.S. Postal Service issued to carriers instead of chemical.

They do not hurt the dog in any manner but is only usefull at very close contact to the dog.


----------



## Jerry Cudahy

Here is a link I quickly found that shows one and a quick description.

http://www.harps.hu/termekek/dazzer_en.htm


----------



## Jerry Cudahy

will fernandez said:


> replace D with T and drop a Z


Ouch, that one hurts. That is good cop humour.


----------



## Jim Nash

Alison Grubb said:


> I have not personally used a sharpened prong collar though I know people who have and I have seen them used. I have yet to be worried by any of the applications that I have observed.
> 
> For whatever it is worth, I have seen Tracey and her dogs training several times. She is a very fair handler and I have never seen her do anything that caused me concern for the dogs. Her dogs are happy workers both on and off the field. I'm almost positive that I know exactly which dog she is thinking about using the sharpened prong on and I honestly think it is worth a try. Quite honestly, I am dang happy to see a bulldog who is not sensitive to the handler or the correction. I wish there were more like him out there. He's on a real short list of ABs that I really like.
> 
> As for the way people around here like to stir up drama under the guise of asking for an education - it's pretty amusing. It's not hard to see what your agenda is or where your bias lies.




Allison , no agenda here . I use prong collars along with many other things to train with . Never heard of sharpened prong collars being used before and wanted to know more about them . All the answers given seem acceptable to me .

This whole thing could of been avoided had Tracy just answered some simple questions in the first place instead of going into avoidance wanting to take it to PMs . Just answer the question this is a forum about working dogs and their training and it was an actual subject about dog training for once .

As far as I'm concerned if you are so nervous about something getting too contraversial don't ask the question on a public forum to begin with . Tracy wanting to handle this via PM is even weaker then posting in the No Conflict Zone . 

I learn alot when I ask questions and if you avoid them you're damn right I will push to get them answered . Don't like it grow as set .


----------



## tracey schneider

For the record, I actually thought it quite funny and entertaining, as Im sure others did as well, I had an evil grin on my face all night lol. I agree you can learn more by questioning but I asked a question about where to purchase equipment... that was the topic of MY thread. I hesitated in responding because I didnt feel I could answer the question better than someone who has actually used it and didnt want to put out misinformation on public message board for an already controversial topic. [-X

t


----------



## tracey schneider

Jerry Cudahy said:


> Here is a link I quickly found that shows one and a quick description.
> 
> http://www.harps.hu/termekek/dazzer_en.htm


The link didnt work for me but I found others... now that is an interesting concept I have never seen before... have you used it for obedience or know anyone that has? How quickly do the dogs make the connection? Im not sure it would work for what Im trying to do? but tell us more if you will.

t


----------



## Jim Nash

tracey delin said:


> For the record, I actually thought it quite funny and entertaining, as Im sure others did as well, I had an evil grin on my face all night lol. I agree you can learn more by questioning but I asked a question about where to purchase equipment... that was the topic of MY thread. I hesitated in responding because I didnt feel I could answer the question better than someone who has actually used it and didnt want to put out misinformation on public message board for an already controversial topic. [-X
> 
> t


But you thought it was a good idea to ask a question on a "controversial" subject then run and hide once , god forbid , questions got asked .

When all was said and done it wasn't all that contraversial to me . You just wimped out and let others handle something that turned out to be very simple .


----------



## eric squires

I have a Ultrasonic device very similar to the Dazer. It does not work for all dogs, some of my dogs it bothers and some could care less. I was issued one to carry as a tool for my job. I have found that it is hit or miss as to it's effectiveness. This is based on using it on many dogs of all breeds. It works best on thiner nerved dogs.


----------



## Tracey Hughes

Hi Tracey-

Have you ever thought of trying a cable collar? Or something similar.

It has helped me gain control on a SchH 3 GSD male I got when he was 4 years old. Been using it for 5 mos now and have gotten farther with it then I did in an entire year using prong and e collar. I will be working Ellie on it our next session to clean up her outs.

The cable(or you might be able to use a choke chain or nylon choke, if the dog isn’t the type to grab it and bite through!) reduces the dog’s drive level making them much easier to control. 

A prong, sharpened or otherwise most often just adds more drive into the mix, in reality the prong is more of a stimulation to harder and/or higher drive dogs.


----------



## Thomas Barriano

Where can I buy an electrified sharpened prong collar with the 
Taser option?


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen

Dazzer. I have had dogs bite me anyway. Absof U c k ing useless.

I found this thread to be amusing, I loved the start off sentence, "I have never used one" AAAAAAAAAAAAAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA

Or, how about this good one, "I used one, but saw no difference" AAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

You sharpen a prong, after having botched using the regular, and the dog doesn't notice, you need lessons on how to sharpen things.

Maggie needs to go back to her pet forums, and quit thinking about stuff that is over her head.

This is the nice version of what I was going to write. Don't make me stop the car.


----------



## Jerry Cudahy

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Dazzer. I have had dogs bite me anyway. Absof U c k ing useless.
> 
> I found this thread to be amusing, I loved the start off sentence, "I have never used one" AAAAAAAAAAAAAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA
> 
> Or, how about this good one, "I used one, but saw no difference" AAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
> 
> You sharpen a prong, after having botched using the regular, and the dog doesn't notice, you need lessons on how to sharpen things.
> 
> Maggie needs to go back to her pet forums, and quit thinking about stuff that is over her head.
> 
> This is the nice version of what I was going to write. Don't make me stop the car.


 Oprah is never going to let you on the show.

btw, how far along are you ??


----------



## Gerry Grimwood

Jerry Cudahy said:


> Here is a link I quickly found that shows one and a quick description.
> 
> http://www.harps.hu/termekek/dazzer_en.htm


Those things don't work, they're like those pagers they try to sell old people on tv that are supposed to alert somebody if they're hurt or whatever...nobody hears anything :lol:


----------



## Mike Scheiber

Thomas Barriano said:


> Where can I buy an electrified sharpened prong collar with the
> Taser option?


What the hell do you need such a thing for them thin skinned Dobermans welt up from mosquito bites :smile:
Shit you got to be careful when you flank them that you could tear off a leg :lol:


----------



## Thomas Barriano

Mike Scheiber said:


> What the hell do you need such a thing for them thin skinned Dobermans welt up from mosquito bites :smile:
> Shit you got to be careful when you flank them that you could tear off a leg :lol:



Mike,

The sharpened electrified prong collar with the Taser option is for Gwrgenau my GSD


----------



## will fernandez

Jerry Cudahy said:


> Ouch, that one hurts. That is good cop humour.


 
I thought it was another "tart or tard" thing-


----------



## Mike Scheiber

Thomas Barriano said:


> Mike,
> 
> The sharpened electrified prong collar with the Taser option is for Gwrgenau my GSD


Never mind then carry on


----------



## Kristina Senter

Joby Becker said:


>


I'm curious where you found this pic, Joby?
I have a collar identical to this. Well, almost. It's an antique and it's flipped the other way with the spikes turning out, away from the dog. It was a common flock guarding dog collar, worn to offer protection from wolf/dog attacks. It's extremely hard for a person to grab, too. I bought it because I love antique dog collars, but have actually put it one one of my older dogs once to self-correct a pup I had that loved playing roughly by grabbing her neck. It was very effective, lol. Im wondering if the pic above is not just a mis-represented collar of the same function?


----------



## Joby Becker

Kristina Senter said:


> I'm curious where you found this pic, Joby?
> I have a collar identical to this. Well, almost. It's an antique and it's flipped the other way with the spikes turning out, away from the dog. It was a common flock guarding dog collar, worn to offer protection from wolf/dog attacks. It's extremely hard for a person to grab, too. I bought it because I love antique dog collars, but have actually put it one one of my older dogs once to self-correct a pup I had that loved playing roughly by grabbing her neck. It was very effective, lol. Im wondering if the pic above is not just a mis-represented collar of the same function?


I googled sharpened correction collar images. "I think" this was random pic, do not remember what the link was to. I most likely is used the other way and this is how the pic was taken...

the other 2 were advertised for sale..that one I thought might get a smile out of someone..


----------



## Nicole Stark

The prongs look like wire staples, actually like the big ones used for cables. I imagine it would be pretty useful on a LGD or similar dog in that environment. I thought about something like that for bear out my way since I'm on the rivers a lot. But lets be real it's not the black bear that I am worried about and the brownies would just munch up my dog and pay no attention to that stupid collar.


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

tracey delin said:


> Nice responses from those who have the experience. Definitely a few key points have been hit on for my reasoning in considering its use. I have ONE dog I am considering using it on. If and more than likely, when, I get one, it will have specific uses and not for everything. Im hoping it could benefit us where the e-collar is lacking in the high drive states by adding a touch of “personal” to it. I have also considered its use in areas of ob or tracking (not so much tracking) where for me (a female not so strong handler) can get a good correction without an exaggeration of physical effort. Where I can get a good correction in and neither of us changes position or loses stride. Calm and smooth and personal.
> 
> t


I'm curious how is the "e-collar lacking in the high drive states?"

Terrasita


----------



## Gillian Schuler

When we were allowed to use prong collars, the ones which were not sharpened were deemed to cause far more damage to the dog's neck because until the dog really took any notice of it, you had to pull it pretty strongly, thereby causing inner damage.

The advantage of the sharpened prongs is that it is probably an unpleasant sensation for the dog, but not damaging. My Briard had practically no undercoat and all it took was a slight tug to gain his attention. I checked his neck after using it initially but could not find any damage.

We had this subject once on another forum and I told an "unbeliever" to try it on his arm. The coward tried it on his brother's arm and drew blood and I was badnamed for it!!

I sure would prefer to feel a slight prick as opposed to a yank with a blunt prong!

I tried on the e-collar on my thigh - apart from the initial "jump" because I didn't know when the chap was going to press the button, I didn't feel much at all.

Both devices are preferable to constantly yanking the choke chain.


----------



## tracey schneider

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> I'm curious how is the "e-collar lacking in the high drive states?"
> 
> Terrasita


In some situations (not all) its like someone is poking him with a stick in the neck, he may tilt his head for a second but then continues on with what he was doing... I think the lack of "personal" is part of that. 

t


----------



## Jerry Cudahy

tracey delin said:


> In some situations (not all) its like someone is poking him with a stick in the neck, he may tilt his head for a second but then continues on with what he was doing... I think the lack of "personal" is part of that.
> 
> t


What type of ecollar do you use? They can be boosted to a higher stim level if the unit is from a quality manufacturer.

It is as easy as a trip to Radio Shack ....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resistor


----------



## tracey schneider

Gillian Schuler said:


> I sure would prefer to feel a slight prick as opposed to a yank with a blunt prong!
> 
> I tried on the e-collar on my thigh - apart from the initial "jump" because I didn't know when the chap was going to press the button, I didn't feel much at all.
> 
> Both devices are preferable to constantly yanking the choke chain.



this is what Im thinking...... thank you.


----------



## tracey schneider

Jerry Cudahy said:


> What type of ecollar do you use? They can be boosted to a higher stim level if the unit is from a quality manufacturer.
> 
> It is as easy as a trip to Radio Shack ....
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resistor



dogtra 1900 ncp... but I cant help but think adding the "personal" touch of the prong will get into his bulldog brain a little better...


----------



## Jerry Cudahy

tracey delin said:


> dogtra 1900 ncp... but I cant help but think adding the "personal" touch of the prong will get into his bulldog brain a little better...


OK, now this is easy. The Dobbs who own Dogtra are two of the very nicest people you could ever meet. In fact they have a backround that includes a team member on the U.S Sch World Team.

Phone them and tell them your problem with levels and I bet you get invited to their training farm.

Another expert that you might try and locate is Brian Mowrey.

Dada. enjoy


----------



## Gillian Schuler

In conclusion, I'd just like to say that without the aids of prong and e-collar, our dogs are more heavily manhandled than before, I'm speaking from my own experience.

Try "controlling" a 45 kilo GSD that's main concern is to get to the helper asap!! There are no positive methods for me in this (or I don't know of them). the prong would have checked him. The dog pushed, I pushed back - it wasn't a pretty scene for the onlooker but not brutal. The helper berated me, his wife said that was "terrible" but two weeks later she turned up with a Rottweiler and delivered the same scene. My, how I told the helper that there was no difference and all he said was " Ja, ja, die spinnen alle halt". In other words "They're all crazy"!! 

Some dogs can be trained positively always, some to a certain age and at some stage, a prong or e-collar would be beneficial but we are faced with a 2-year trial "stop" if found out.


----------



## maggie fraser

Gillian Schuler said:


> In conclusion, I'd just like to say that without the aids of prong and e-collar, our dogs are more heavily manhandled than before, I'm speaking from my own experience.
> 
> Try "controlling" a 45 kilo GSD that's main concern is to get to the helper asap!! There are no positive methods for me in this (or I don't know of them). the prong would have checked him. The dog pushed, I pushed back - it wasn't a pretty scene for the onlooker but not brutal. The helper berated me, his wife said that was "terrible" but two weeks later she turned up with a Rottweiler and delivered the same scene. My, how I told the helper that there was no difference and all he said was " Ja, ja, die spinnen alle halt". In other words "They're all crazy"!!
> 
> Some dogs can be trained positively always, some to a certain age and at some stage, a prong or e-collar would be beneficial but we are faced with a 2-year trial "stop" if found out.


What is your reference Gillian ? Was there discussion in here on the pros and cons of motivational training....if there was I missed it. What do you mean about a 2-year "stop" if found out ? If you're using an e collar and /or prong collar in Switzerland?


Or do you mean....lower the profile and don't raise the subject?


----------



## Joby Becker

not to get in the middle of you two ladies....but...

I think Gillian is saying that the sharpened pinch and use of pinch and ecollar in general is more humane for a difficult animal than the methods they have to use now legally.

If they are found to be using these "terrible tools" they will suffer a penalty, at least that is how I read it...


----------



## maggie fraser

Joby Becker said:


> not to get in the middle of you two ladies....but...
> 
> I think Gillian is saying that the sharpened pinch and use of pinch and ecollar in general is more humane for a difficult animal than the methods they have to use now legally.
> 
> If they are found to be using these "terrible tools" they will suffer a penalty, at least that is how I read it...


 
There's nothing to get in the middle of Joby! And i'm not disagreeing or agreeing....was just looking for the relevance. 


We have clubs here which subscribe to their use (prongs) and ones which don't (but use them anyway), I understand it's a problem.


----------



## Joby Becker

maggie fraser said:


> There's nothing to get in the middle of Joby!


dammit!!!!!!;-);-)


----------



## maggie fraser

Joby Becker said:


> dammit!!!!!!;-);-)


Nice try!


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: 
We have clubs here which subscribe to their use (prongs) and ones which don't (but use them anyway), I understand it's a problem.

Why is it a problem ?


----------



## maggie fraser

_Why is it a problem ?_

Ignorance ?? Difference in values and culture ?? Mass rule ??


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen

So there very likely isn't really a problem at all.


----------



## maggie fraser

Not when you keep it to yourself .

This is a working dog board, why should some feel so defensive on their methods when there are others openly discussed on here which are on a par? Cultural difference ??


----------



## Ashley Campbell

That's what I was going for originally - maybe things like a sharpened prong aren't a LEGAL thing everywhere - I used a different term such as socially acceptable but that might be it also. Maybe, when you stick your real name on a forum, that most of the time has your location, you're opening yourself up to a world of hurt by admitting ownership/use of such an item. Some of the knee-jerk reactions to it could be detrimental to some trainers on here that might own or use one but not want to share because it's bad for business to admit that to these furbaby lovers?

Then again, I think it was reasonably explained on their purpose and you're enjoying beating a dead horse. Just another tool in the tool box.


----------



## Alice Bezemer

maggie fraser said:


> Not when you keep it to yourself .
> 
> This is a working dog board, why should some feel so defensive on their methods when there are others openly discussed on here which are on a par? Cultural difference ??



assumptions mostly is what i think...people tend to judge what they dont know or understand, I already mentioned earlier the fact that several people jumped to conclusions based on nothing at all but ignorance and sometimes its just not worth it to try and explain the reasoning behind something or the why, how and what based on statements that where already made beforehand.

and ofcourse theres the "omg your hurting fluffy" people who immediatly cry wolf due to ofcourse total and utter ignorance of whatever is being talked about...it gets tiring and very very old and then nobody even bothers explaining anymore coze they dont want the bullshit that comes along with it


----------



## maggie fraser

Ashley Campbell said:


> Then again, I think it was reasonably explained on their purpose and you're enjoying beating a dead horse. Just another tool in the tool box.


I'm answering a question (if indeed your post is directed at me),.....and you're sounding like a very good parrot.


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## Doug Zaga

Alice Bezemer said:


> and ofcourse theres the "omg your hurting fluffy" people who immediatly cry wolf due to ofcourse total and utter ignorance of whatever is being talked about...it gets tiring and very very old and then nobody even bothers explaining anymore coze they dont want the bullshit that comes along with it


...Fluffy is the problem!


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## Alice Bezemer

Doug Zaga said:


> ...Fluffy is the problem!


nope fluffy aint the problem 

its the dumbfk holding fluffy's leash that is the pain in the ass :lol:


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## Doug Zaga

I may try one of the small sharpened prong collars on my wife's persian cats...fluffy!


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## Mo Earle

not used one myself, but in one of the clubs I trained in the past, a VERY sharpened prong was used at times by a very experienced and successful handler- definately need to have the experience to use it like any other tool correctly- so the dog is taught, but not injured-I personally cannot see myself using one, I would probably end up ripping the dogs neck open or ripping the poor dogs head off....so I personally would move to the smaller prong if needed first.


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## Mike Scheiber

Are there still allot of people still banging on dogs to get them to do stuff


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## Ashley Campbell

maggie fraser said:


> I'm answering a question (if indeed your post is directed at me),.....and you're sounding like a very good parrot.


"tool in the toolbox" is a good explanation - at least I don't sound like a broken record on "why is nobody responding to me, wahhh" 

I just put it into a context I can understand. I use a bicycle chain mechanical hackamore on my horse - because he's an asshole and I don't enjoy going through fences at top speed. Certainly can be misused and is not a tool for every horse though. Certainly could be considered a "cruel" tool in the box if misused.


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## Bob Scott

Alice Bezemer said:


> nope fluffy aint the problem
> 
> its the dumbfk holding fluffy's leash that is the pain in the ass :lol:



My response to anyone that says they're dog is stupid.
Nothing wrong with the dog. It's the turd stuck on the other end of the leash that's causing the problems. :wink:


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## Selena van Leeuwen

Bob Scott said:


> My response to anyone that says they're dog is stupid.
> Nothing wrong with the dog. It's the turd stuck on the other end of the leash that's causing the problems. :wink:


Thats Oh so very true.
The "stupid dog won't do it" sentence is always used by the handler with lack of skills or/and knowledge about (their) dogs. (and without a mirror to look in now and then....:mrgreen

Confronting a handler by taking over the dog and show the dog CAN do it is the most confronting statement that the dog isn't the problem but indeed the other end of the leash. 

It worked fine with the hardheaded handlers at the force....

Dick


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## Gillian Schuler

Joby Becker said:


> not to get in the middle of you two ladies....but...
> 
> I think Gillian is saying that the sharpened pinch and use of pinch and ecollar in general is more humane for a difficult animal than the methods they have to use now legally.
> 
> If they are found to be using these "terrible tools" they will suffer a penalty, at least that is how I read it...


Correct!! I read in our official magazine that someone had been banned from dog sports for two years for using the prong - guess someone photographed or videoed him or her.


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## Gillian Schuler

Part of the reason e-collars and prongs (sharpened or not) were banned here is that a number of "big guys" used to boast that their dogs were so tough they could only train them with prong and e-collar.

I still maintain the sharpened prongs cause less harm than the blunt ones. I think they x-rayed a dog and found internal injuries to the throat which are far worse than the occasional scratch. Just because you can't see injuries doesn't mean they are not there.

How quickly do dogs react to blunt prongs? I guess not so quickly, so handlers go on pulling heavily until they do. With the sharpened prong it doesn't need a heavy tug. Of course you have to loosen the lead after the tug but this is elementary.


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## Daniel Lybbert

This thread got me thinking. Im going to the shop to sharpen my pinch collar up.
My wife has had shoulder surgery 6 times and just got bit in the opposite hand. She cant correct him very good. This might make life a little easier on her at the moment.


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## Bob Scott

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> Thats Oh so very true.
> The "stupid dog won't do it" sentence is always used by the handler with lack of skills or/and knowledge about (their) dogs. (and without a mirror to look in now and then....:mrgreen
> 
> Confronting a handler by taking over the dog and show the dog CAN do it is the most confronting statement that the dog isn't the problem but indeed the other end of the leash.
> 
> It worked fine with the hardheaded handlers at the force....
> 
> Dick



Dick, 
Years ago when I taught pet obedience classes I would take the worst dog in class on the first night and show how it could sit or do whatever I wanted in just a few trys. 
The dogs may be an ass at home but in my class it didn't know me enough to give me any trouble. 
It never failed to impress the "turds". :grin:
I don't think I'd care to do that with one of yours. :lol: :wink:


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