# Directing building search with light/ laser



## Nick Hrycaj (Mar 30, 2014)

I cannot remember where but I once saw an advertisement for a class teaching using a laser light to direct a dog through a building search. I have seen dogs go crazy for laser pointers as a play thing but never seen them used as a useful tool in real life. Anyone use this type of method, been to that type of training?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Nick Hrycaj said:


> I cannot remember where but I once saw an advertisement for a class teaching using a laser light to direct a dog through a building search. I have seen dogs go crazy for laser pointers as a play thing but never seen them used as a useful tool in real life. Anyone use this type of method, been to that type of training?


http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f18/area-building-searches-w-laser-pointer-18815/


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## Nick Hrycaj (Mar 30, 2014)

Right on, thanks. Where'd all those contributors go? Haz has a point after all that numbers are down and feedback has suffered


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

All but three of them are still members. One of the guys made a good point about trying to get people to understand the need or purpose in what they (cops) do by arguing with people who don't understand or do the job. 

I got some if my best information from some of the guys that posted on that thread. I spoke to a number of them about their participation on the forum after it dwindled away. Most stopped for the reason noted above. Or in other words people just talking out of their asses with no experience or actual understanding about what they were yammering on about. They got tired of it and lost interest in the forum.

Course a lot of the better stuff was posted nearly five years ago. People's priorities and needs change. And I guess too, that maybe Facebook has taken over the world. I really couldn't say for sure on that. I don't have a Facebook account as I refuse to be sucked into allowing that type of useless shit into my life. The WDF offers enough diversity for my needs, though I'd sure like to see it liven up.

Keep posting. It might serve as a much needed impetus to resurface some of our officers and military members that used to post more frequently.


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## Matthew Grubb (Nov 16, 2007)

Neat idea but I don't think I would teach it. More and more officers are using lasers on their pistols and rifles now... too much potential for confusion.


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## Haz Othman (Mar 25, 2013)

Nicole Stark said:


> All but three of them are still members. One of the guys made a good point about trying to get people to understand the need or purpose in what they (cops) do by arguing with people who don't understand or do the job.
> 
> I got some if my best information from some of the guys that posted on that thread. I spoke to a number of them about their participation on the forum after it dwindled away. Most stopped for the reason noted above. Or in other words people just talking out of their asses with no experience or actual understanding about what they were yammering on about. They got tired of it and lost interest in the forum.
> 
> ...


Nicole everyone claims that..the reality is theres no one here that pisses them off/ amuses them enough to keep them coming back.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Well I didn't want to point out the obvious but now that you have I guess I have to say +1 or whatever lame ass trendy shit grown adults find themselves drawn to do these days. 

Haz why not become that special someone? You know become the asshole everyone loves to hate. Or if it suits you better develop yourself to become more interesting or amusing. For example, start by changing your signature tag and replace dust with aliens.


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## Haz Othman (Mar 25, 2013)

Sorry dont have it in me , takes a special someone with lots of anger and time.


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## Rob Maltese (Jan 8, 2014)

Matthew Grubb said:


> Neat idea but I don't think I would teach it. More and more officers are using lasers on their pistols and rifles now... too much potential for confusion.


I think if more people understood what the K9 was doing and why using a laser would be an issue then guys at least at my department eould switch to lights rather then lasers.


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## Matthew Grubb (Nov 16, 2007)

Rob Maltese said:


> I think if more people understood what the K9 was doing and why using a laser would be an issue then guys at least at my department eould switch to lights rather then lasers.


Asking the department to change so that the dog can perform better(questionably) building searches will be the brick wall that you will hit. Officer safety vs. efficiency.

The thing you get into with building search.... there is what you train vs. what you do on the street. At times the two are very much at odds with one another.


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## Nick Hrycaj (Mar 30, 2014)

Matt I fully agree that what we are presented on the street is sometimes different from training but I try to always follow the adage of practicing like I play. Nobody uses weapon mounted lasers in my county but I wouldn't deploy without having run tens or hundreds of practice times with the dog guiding laser.

One of the guys on the old post called the laser training a cop out for better training of methodical building search. I disagree with that from a real world standpoint that not every area or bldg is the same so there will always be deployments that present new factors to the dog vs what the trainer or handler thought of in traing.

I saw some brad smith skidds stuff that advocates the long line so maybe that's a good bridge to keep the dog in a specific area longer to encourage a re-search or obedience to hand signals to check certain areas.

Outside of anthropomorphism, I feel dogs do really read between the lines sometimes and see what we want, therefore making a hand signal/ flashlight guide combo a successful hint even without prior training.

Who has info on a dog's vision ability? They really color blind? Depth perception? Are they just cueing off motion with light or laser?...


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

According to my Steven Lindsey book and internet browsing, dogs are not colorblind. Early tests in the 20th century concluded that dogs may have the basic ability to discriminate color but merely reacted to the brightness factor. 
Later research is showing that dogs are dichromatic and can discern colors in the blue-yellow spectrum but not the red-green one. In those cases, I’m guessing that the dogs are using “brightness” as a guide which laser light can certainly provide even though lasers are either red or green in color.
The eyes, set toward the front of the head, give a sharp and wide field of binocular vision which overlap of 40-60 degrees between the right and left eyes giving good depth perception which can vary based on the breed eye position. Since dogs lack full binocular vision their best depth perception is narrowed to what is directly in front of them. However depth perception can still be achieved by turning the head so that objects are moving at different speeds with regard to one another and so get an idea of relative distances and the depth between them. Other things that help is foreground and background contrasts, contour lines, size and scales of associated objects, linear, overlapping, and vertical location within the field of vision.
What I found most interesting is that dogs can be nearsighted or farsighted (just as in humans). One study found that 63% of the rotties and 53% of the GSDs tested were myopic or nearsighted.


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## Nick Hrycaj (Mar 30, 2014)

Sarah, very informative! Sorry you had to do the leg work. I got carried away thinking out loud in my post, coulda looked that stuff up myself on the Internet.


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Nick Hrycaj said:


> Sarah, very informative! Sorry you had to do the leg work. I got carried away thinking out loud in my post, coulda looked that stuff up myself on the Internet.


No worries, I learned something while I was researching this. Never realized how many dogs have a problem with farsightedness. Maybe that's why so many are driven by the chase. They "see" the motion better than they can see the actual item. Could be why so many small prey animals freeze when they think they are in danger. "If I don't move, they can't see me...." Appearently there is some truth to this.


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## Guy Williams (Jun 26, 2012)

We occasionally get the military using our training venues and they used lasers to move the dogs around on a search. They started by shining it on a ball and then gradually moved the ball further away so the dog used the laser to locate the ball. Then they moved it on to people in search. I initially liked the idea and we started practicing as I could see some use for it. The firearms officers pointed out that the red lasers they have on their weapons may cause some confusion. We switched to a green laser. Then we lost interest in the whole thing. It has come back into my mind recently as I was thinking about laser guided attack dogs. I'm not sure how much use there might be for it but i love things that use gadgets. Any one ever heard or used such a method or am I still sleep deprived?


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Matthew Grubb said:


> Asking the department to change so that the dog can perform better(questionably) building searches will be the brick wall that you will hit. Officer safety vs. efficiency.
> 
> The thing you get into with building search.... there is what you train vs. what you do on the street. At times the two are very much at odds with one another.


 Just train the exercise and do it. Ask for forgiveness later. It's just another tool eh? Did a building search the other night in an industrial area. I've taught my dog to target search with a flashlight blip. I used it in that building on two doors. The dog searched the rest of the building fine. It's called a K9 team for a reason. Right?


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Guy, I'm glad you posted this because I have been wondering about Nick's original question since he posted it. The original dialogue on a similar topic is nearly 4 years old and I wondered what, if any, new developments have surfaced regarding using this approach and if so, has it been found to be effective. Or are there more downsides to it than appreciable applications of such.

Also, what differences, if any, did you note when changing from red to green?


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## Matthew Grubb (Nov 16, 2007)

Guy Williams said:


> We occasionally get the military using our training venues and they used lasers to move the dogs around on a search. They started by shining it on a ball and then gradually moved the ball further away so the dog used the laser to locate the ball. Then they moved it on to people in search. I initially liked the idea and we started practicing as I could see some use for it. The firearms officers pointed out that the red lasers they have on their weapons may cause some confusion. We switched to a green laser. Then we lost interest in the whole thing. It has come back into my mind recently as I was thinking about laser guided attack dogs. I'm not sure how much use there might be for it but i love things that use gadgets. Any one ever heard or used such a method or am I still sleep deprived?


Never heard of it but the cool thing about dog training is that you can do whatever floats your boat and to heck with everyone else! lol

I can think of a ton of "tactical" applications where choosing a "target" for the dog via laser would be a major plus.


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## Matthew Grubb (Nov 16, 2007)

Howard Knauf said:


> Just train the exercise and do it. Ask for forgiveness later. It's just another tool eh? Did a building search the other night in an industrial area. I've taught my dog to target search with a flashlight blip. I used it in that building on two doors. The dog searched the rest of the building fine. It's called a K9 team for a reason. Right?


We are big on directed search.. but do so with hand signals. 

Someone mentioned long lines... we don't use them. We spend a lot of time on patterning our building searches. We will also spend major amounts of time working the down and having a search team move all over and around the dog.


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Matthew Grubb said:


> We are big on directed search.. but do so with hand signals.
> 
> Someone mentioned long lines... we don't use them. We spend a lot of time on patterning our building searches. We will also spend major amounts of time working the down and having a search team move all over and around the dog.


 Funny you should mention these two things. My dog will work with hand signals but in a dark building it's difficult sometimes. Impossible if the dog can't see you.

I attended a tactical K9 school a few years ago and we used the long line in a SWAT stack. It was interesting. Last night I broke out the long line in a building for the first time with this particular dog. We create a stack and searched the building on lead in increments. The dog was downed after each section was searched the we crept up to him to continue the search. It was my boy's first time doing this on line and if I had to grade him I'd give him a "C". Not too bad for his first time. You could see the confusion at first but at the end he did a bit better. I used the light to make sure he hit every door in the search if he missed one. We don't have a dedicated SWAT dog and depend on out patrol dogs so to assist the entry team now and then. It's good that the dog has seen the exercise before actually doing it for real.


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## Nick Hrycaj (Mar 30, 2014)

Matt, How do you teach a patterned building search without a long line?


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## Matthew Grubb (Nov 16, 2007)

Nick Hrycaj said:


> Matt, How do you teach a patterned building search without a long line?


When we focus on patterning in training I will set up the search in a long hall with a ton of doors on both sides. We will always set up the first bite behind the first door. The second bite will be behind the second door on the opposite side....and so on. The end result will be a dog that learns to work the door seams all the way down the hall, one after the other.

Were three weeks into a basic class now.... when we start patterning with the dogs I will video tape some of it and post it.


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## Matthew Grubb (Nov 16, 2007)

Howard Knauf said:


> Funny you should mention these two things. My dog will work with hand signals but in a dark building it's difficult sometimes. Impossible if the dog can't see you.
> 
> I attended a tactical K9 school a few years ago and we used the long line in a SWAT stack. It was interesting. Last night I broke out the long line in a building for the first time with this particular dog. We create a stack and searched the building on lead in increments. The dog was downed after each section was searched the we crept up to him to continue the search. It was my boy's first time doing this on line and if I had to grade him I'd give him a "C". Not too bad for his first time. You could see the confusion at first but at the end he did a bit better. I used the light to make sure he hit every door in the search if he missed one. We don't have a dedicated SWAT dog and depend on out patrol dogs so to assist the entry team now and then. It's good that the dog has seen the exercise before actually doing it for real.


We do a lot of long line work in general so our dogs are use to dragging them around all the time. We don't use them in building search though. I have been toying with the idea of combining the down with a silent whistle for some fun stealthy search stuff.... just need to stop being lazy and try it. Perhaps I will do so with my Yorkie. He is my experimental dog I try everything with before we go live with our PSD's :mrgreen:


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## Nick Hrycaj (Mar 30, 2014)

I understand the concept as explained but a video would be good stuff


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Matthew Grubb said:


> We do a lot of long line work in general so our dogs are use to dragging them around all the time. We don't use them in building search though. I have been toying with the idea of combining the down with a silent whistle for some fun stealthy search stuff.... just need to stop being lazy and try it. Perhaps I will do so with my Yorkie. He is my experimental dog I try everything with before we go live with our PSD's :mrgreen:


 I use the long line a lot outdoors of course. Indoors it is a pain especially if there is a lot of things to get hung up on. The silent whistle is a novel idea. Some use the ecollar to do the same. I'd like to see a video on the whistle deal if/when you get to it.


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## Matthew Grubb (Nov 16, 2007)

Howard Knauf said:


> I use the long line a lot outdoors of course. Indoors it is a pain especially if there is a lot of things to get hung up on. The silent whistle is a novel idea. Some use the ecollar to do the same. I'd like to see a video on the whistle deal if/when you get to it.


We just finished week three with the new knuckle heads. I will have to start taking some video next week. I'll make a new thread on this.


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## Jim Duncan (Jan 19, 2009)

Interesting thread. I still use the Laser for guided searches in certain situations. There may be times when you want to clear one room before another and the pattern the dog is trained in needs to be quickly modified. For example 4 way intersections and we want to go a certain direction, opposing rooms and I want to clear the room on the left before the room on the right. The dog may not be in odor but wants to go to the right. The laser has advantages for directed searches, covert searches in the dark. 

My dog has a very good foundation and training in building searches. He will do a very methodical search off lead and will check each room and door seam on his own. We do use long lines for clearing with our SWAT team, that long line offers some advantages as well. I have also been to the Skidds / Cats school. Some very good info presented there. While there are some tactical reasons and advantages to use a long line, there are some disadvantages too. My dog will go left or right and check rooms by hand signal, but that isn't effective in the dark. The flashlight technique works, but it has drawbacks as well. 

I find the laser has a lot of advantages in the dark with out most of the disadvantages. I train it and I use it when it is appropriate, our SWAT guys love it. It is not a tool to make up for poor building searches by a dog, rather it is a more advanced building search technique after a very strong, methodical foundation has been taught. 

JMO FWIW

Jim


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Laser pointer work 2nd session for target odor. The laser and the odor were paired up on one other session earlier today. Working out the alert as we go.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jASVy3ENXos&list=UU2qZ6PJgHCCrWudCncq4r8A


Please don't use this as a guide on how to train searching with a laser. I am building some cues in that will make it a reliable party trick, but not a reliable for searching in the "real" world. Pardon my shaky presentations as well. 

Also a big thanks to a hard worker...


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## Matthew Grubb (Nov 16, 2007)

Dave Colborn said:


> Laser pointer work 2nd session for target odor. The laser and the odor were paired up on one other session earlier today. Working out the alert as we go.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Haha!! loved it!! Next use the laser to teach that boxer to get you beer from the fridge!!


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

That's a Boxer. They will drink the beer then lie and tell you the fridge was empty. :-o


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Dave Colborn said:


> Laser pointer work 2nd session for target odor. The laser and the odor were paired up on one other session earlier today. Working out the alert as we go.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jASVy3ENXos&list=UU2qZ6PJgHCCrWudCncq4r8A


Say there fella, word on the street is your looking for superheros. 

Nice job and damn that was funny. I see you got one of those talker cats. I had one that would climb curtains and drag herself along stairs upside down when I played heavy metal but it had to be loud. Cats are curious creatures. :razz:


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Mystery men. (I guessed but had to check first)

Fuzzball yowls at me first thing in the morning and follows me until I go look at his food. Full or empty, he wants me to look. He is trying to teach me the joys of routine. 



Nicole Stark said:


> Say there fella, word on the street is your looking for superheros.
> 
> Nice job and damn that was funny. I see you got one of those talker cats. I had one that would climb curtains and drag herself along stairs upside down when I played heavy metal but it had to be loud. Cats are curious creatures. :razz:


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Nick.

Sorry to hijack ever so slightly. I do find it odd that in the whole other thread and this one there is no video of a dog working with a laser. Seems like it would be a really useful technique with predictable drawbacks. 



Any vids....anyone???


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## Nick Hrycaj (Mar 30, 2014)

I come to learn. I don't like cats but learned they are more 'trainable' than I ever knew. Hijack excused. I did chuckle when the suspense ended and the test subject was revealed haha

One worry reference main topic is the availability of lasers and the chance someone else could interfere (on accident or intentional). I don't see the chances being high but I heard that argument against English commands, similar concept here


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Nothing like a little levity to keep things fun and remind us of one of the reasons we're here. Thanks Dave.

My daughter just picked up a really cool cat from the pound a couple weeks ago. He and the Chihuahua wear each other out playing stalk and chase. Really fun to watch and get a cheap laugh.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I love watching cats. Beautiful movement but I'm to much of a control freak with my dogs. When I say "Here" all cats do it flip you the tail (finger) with a "maybe later" look. 

I do believe they are more trainable then even many cat owners think. I just don't want to do it.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Dave Colborn said:


> Nick.
> 
> Sorry to hijack ever so slightly. I do find it odd that in the whole other thread and this one there is no video of a dog working with a laser. Seems like it would be a really useful technique with predictable drawbacks.
> 
> Any vids....anyone???


I assume you meant in the context originally asked? If not, take a look below. The others (tactical), I expect would be harder to come by for various reasons.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxEjZnrzLF8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CArLtiTXHSk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2MaRFuFPOSk - something a bit different.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Nicole, context yes. I was going for the specific context of follow laser then use nose or bite. 

The below stuff is cool pet stuff, just like my cat. not knocking it. Just like my cat, though, they are following and not doing anything else. Although the more I do it with my cat, the quicker he is hunting for his nip when he gets to where I shut the laser off. He is definitely conflicted about which is better, the laser or the nip. I am sure that nip and laser together, laser would win for chasing vs. hunting nip which is undesirable. 



I wonder if, since dogs learn better in context, if the laser pointer could be the context to make searching in new areas or with distractions easier. Laser being a cue to "use your nose here" just like a hand presenting or casting the dog or a search command or send out command.

Imagine if you could cast a dog for a track with a laser from cover..... Lots of good applications





Nicole Stark said:


> I assume you meant in the context originally asked? If not, take a look below. The others (tactical), I expect would be harder to come by for various reasons.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxEjZnrzLF8
> 
> ...


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## Oldk9man (Feb 20, 2021)

Nick Hrycaj said:


> I cannot remember where but I once saw an advertisement for a class teaching using a laser light to direct a dog through a building search. I have seen dogs go crazy for laser pointers as a play thing but never seen them used as a useful tool in real life. Anyone use this type of method, been to that type of training?


Yes I have trained a lot of combat dogs that we trained using the laser as a directional tool. I never used it in a play mode (just having the dogs chase it). I used it to get the dogs to go to certain areas looking for armed/hidden combatants or to areas to start explosive detection. I found that the green colored laser worked best. Also, just directing the laser on one small spot the dogs did not seem to pick upon as well as say a figure 8 type pattern. It also works best starting the dog outside and “lazing” on the downwind side of an easy hide (odor or decoy) that is out of sight from the starting point. Quick and fun finds = easier and quicker results


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