# Define Pack Drive



## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Define "pack drive." Is it important to you when selecting a dog? If so, when selecting a dog, how much weight do you give it compared to other drives?


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

I think this habit of adding the word "Drive" to every aspect of a dogs' life is getting out of hand. I've never heard the term "pack drive"...but given the context in which it is used, I would describe it (if there is such a thing) as social structure. I don't know that I would want a dog that is anti social.

Howard


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

A dog that wants to be with/work with people. A natural retrieve would be a big part of that.
I agree with Howard that :drive: is being split into to many hairs. 
If the pup is what you think a pup should be and ya likes it, take it! ;-)


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Well, blow me down with a feather:smile: 

http://k9deb.com/drives.htm

Here's a definition for something I didn't think existed. Petting your dog for no apparent reason is in my book "idle fingering" but in theirs it's increasing the "pack drive". I read it diagonally and even then it made me nearly:-&

My dogs aren't always compatible either, so one would have to go......

Did anyone try bringing up kids without Dr. Spock????


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> A dog that wants to be with/work with people. A natural retrieve would be a big part of that.
> I agree with Howard that :drive: is being split into to many hairs.
> If the pup is what you think a pup should be and ya likes it, take it! ;-)


I agree with you, but it's a term being thrown around a lot these days and I was hoping to spark an interesting discussion about it. I hear people talking about it, but haven't heard a definition I like.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

I'm glad the other Howard hit this...What is a pack drive? Never heard the term used. Who says you can't learn something new every day? Now, where is my screw DRIVER, I've got a living room to paint and cans to open, I said cans Dan not beer~\\/


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Gillian Schuler said:


> http://k9deb.com/drives.htm


 Hi Giilian,

This is asinine! Nothing like teaching people how to be submissive to a dog and hand over the leadership. If this type of garbage is considered current discussion of "Pack Drive" then it is a glaring reason for NOT discussing "Pack Drive". Do we really want to be associated with such drivel. Its an insult to everyone on this board.


Just because some wannabe puts something on the web, it does not hold weight amongst people who really know the truth. The best way to nip it in the bud is to let it die without fanfare. Just say No to pack drive discussions. There, I said it!

Konnie, Nothing against you at all. All questions are legitimate. Stick to the accepted drive terms (which some think are too many as it is) and you'll be fine.

BTW, This author also discusses defense drive. another faux pas. I wonder if her dogs' name is Daisey? (anyone catch that inuendo?) LOL

Howard


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Howard Knauf said:


> Hi Giilian,
> 
> This is asinine! Nothing like teaching people how to be submissive to a dog and hand over the leadership. If this type of garbage is considered current discussion of "Pack Drive" then it is a glaring reason for NOT discussing "Pack Drive". Do we really want to be associated with such drivel. Its an insult to everyone on this board.
> 
> ...


I agree that the article is nonsense. And no, concepts discussed in that ridiculous article have nothing to do with the current discussion of pack drive that I'm referring to.



> Konnie, Nothing against you at all. All questions are legitimate. Stick to the accepted drive terms (which some think are too many as it is) and you'll be fine.


I'm not offended at all. I was under the impression that pack drive was one of the accepted drive terms, but maybe I just hang with a different crowd.

Stolen from a friend's seminar on canine drives:
QUOTE:
canid pack drive is survival driven -

>behavioral synchronization for the collective good - unity and coordination are key (all rest at the same time, all have energy for the hunt)
>enables communication - regarding food, mating, social skills re vital daily functions
>allows for order within the pack - daily routines and exclusive rituals maintain a stable rank order (members of a pack reassure each other daily that nothing has changed, that stability is maintained - why fairness and consistency in training is so important)
>goal is development of bonds and cooperation amongst the members - recalling that all canid drives must further the species' survival, this development provides the best chance of successful hunting and the spreading of genes in the popluation's genetic pool
END QUOTE


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Konnie Hein said:


> I
> Stolen from a friend's seminar on canine drives:
> QUOTE:
> canid pack drive is survival driven -
> ...


 Well written text. Makes a fine point for the reasons that dogs desire to be pack animals. To attach the drive label to it though is somewhat of a jump on the bandwagon IMO. I suppose if I wanted to make a name for myself then I could justify a dogs' ball licking drive by writing, and expressing myself in a well educated manner so that anyone could see my point of view.

Not bashing your friends knowledge and experience here at all. Just expressing my view on how easy it is to attach the term "drive" to every aspect of K9 life. The above ball licking comment is just an extreme example in how things would eventually get out of hand, its not meant to be facetious or to degrade you and your friend.

Howard


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Wether it's really a drive or not, "pack drive" is an often used term that IMO has become a fairly standard term in the dog world. Maybe because "pack drive" is a little more descriptive they saying "pack attitude"  I'm not even sure what other label you might come up with, maybe "biddable" or "eager to please"? Or maybe just because people tend to describe everything using the label "drive" when talking about dogs, whether it is or isn't. prey drive, toy drive, food drive, ball drive, defense drive, fight drive, etc.

I would define it as a dogs desire to work for and with it's handler. IE a dog with a really high "pack drive" is the type of dog who will do anything you ask, 110% every time, just because you asked them to. They are just has excited about your praise or interacting with you as they are a toy, food, etc as a reward. A dog with low pack drive is independant, self serving, really could care less about what you want and only works when they feel like it. They may also want "proof" of the reward before they will work, and won't just do something on the hopes of getting a reward.


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## David Scholes (Jul 12, 2008)

Howard Knauf said:


> Not bashing your friends knowledge and experience here at all. Just expressing my view on how easy it is to attach the term "drive" to every aspect of K9 life. The above ball licking comment is just an extreme example in how things would eventually get out of hand, its not meant to be facetious or to degrade you and your friend.


My opinion is this is a drive or an instinct that we just take for granted with dogs.

In looking at other species, for example horses, it is the herding instinct and need to connect to another herd member for safety, that allows us to connect with and build trust with a horse to where it will allow you on it's back and form a bond with it's rider. Also a herd bound horse who won't go anywhere without another horse, is just a horse that has not developed trust & confidence in the rider. This is the drive that the supposed horse wispers tap into.

If a dog has no desire to be part of a pack, it will be more difficult to train and less forgiving of any corrections. If there is no driving need to fit in there will be no connection with the handler. For most dogs the instinct is so strong there should be no need for drive development. Just something you tap into. A dog without pack drive might as well be a cat :lol: .


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

David Scholes said:


> For most dogs the instinct is so strong there should be no need for drive development. Just something you tap into. A dog without pack drive might as well be a cat :lol: .


 Good post, David. The above quote is very important IMO when it comes to identifying drives in a dog. When I think of a dogs' different drives, I think of certain inherent qualities that we have available that we do want to develop and nurture for our own needs. If we have to develop an anti social dog then we are starting with a losing prospect.

Howard


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Howard Knauf said:


> I suppose if I wanted to make a name for myself then I could justify a dogs' ball licking drive by writing, and expressing myself in a well educated manner so that anyone could see my point of view.


Is that what people are talking about when they talk about "ball drive???" Sheesh, and all this time I thought people were referring to a dog's desire to chase a ball, not lick them! :lol: 



> Not bashing your friends knowledge and experience here at all. Just expressing my view on how easy it is to attach the term "drive" to every aspect of K9 life. The above ball licking comment is just an extreme example in how things would eventually get out of hand, its not meant to be facetious or to degrade you and your friend.
> 
> Howard


Thanks, Howard. I appreciate your input. I asked for opinions, and I value yours. 

No need to worry about hurting my feelings or making me feel degraded. I'm pretty tough, I can handle it! (goes to room to cry on pillow for hours)


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## Lyn Chen (Jun 19, 2006)

Question for the pack drive people. My dog who is biddable, extremely willing to please, goes nuts for praise, well when I correct him, he looks at me and stops. My other dog who is stubborn, totally the opposite definition of 'pack drive', if my voice is even just a little bit upset, even if it's not AT him, will crawl towards me, place his head on my lap, and moan his feelings out.

I stopped trying to measure stuff like this a looong time ago.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Sounds to me like you are either misreading the level of pack drive the second dog has (they are more biddable then you realize) or the dog is TOTALLY reading you LOL As in "when she gets angry, if I do this then I won't get in trouble" It's not about you, it's about them trying to avoid getting into trouble.


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## Lyn Chen (Jun 19, 2006)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> Sounds to me like you are either misreading the level of pack drive the second dog has (they are more biddable then you realize) or the dog is TOTALLY reading you LOL As in "when she gets angry, if I do this then I won't get in trouble" It's not about you, it's about them trying to avoid getting into trouble.


It's the first one (I ignore any attempts to placate me when I'm mad  ), but this is why I don't like the term 'pack drive' as people define it...the second dog is actually more in-tune to me, you could argue he is more biddable. While he lacks that dazed, happy look that people see and immediately coo over because it shows such bond between dog and handler and he is difficult to train with things he finds pointless, he pays attention to me and what I do more than my other dogs. 

It seems like what a lot of people see as pack driven is actually a more submissive or softer dog.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Howard Knauf said:


> Hi Giilian,
> 
> This is asinine! Nothing like teaching people how to be submissive to a dog and hand over the leadership. If this type of garbage is considered current discussion of "Pack Drive" then it is a glaring reason for NOT discussing "Pack Drive". Do we really want to be associated with such drivel. Its an insult to everyone on this board.
> 
> Howard


Hey Howard, I know it's assinine - sorry if it's "driving" you mad - wasn't my intention.... 

I think that each dog has a certain potential. By observing it's reactions to various situations I can judge which and how strong / weak it's "drives" are which makes for easier living and greatly assists training. What I call it doesn't really matter - it's what I see that's important.


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Gillian Schuler said:


> What I call it doesn't really matter - it's what I see that's important.


Good point.


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## Will Kline (Jan 10, 2008)

PACK DRIVE??? 

Isn't that when all those weird "cheese heads" from Wisconsin get together and drive to a winter football game? :?


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Will Kline said:


> PACK DRIVE???
> 
> Isn't that when all those weird "cheese heads" from Wisconsin get together and drive to a winter football game? :?


Will were you ever a soccer goalie? Maybe head damage on a post corner? Too much time in the sun? Umn...\\/


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## Amy Swaby (Jul 16, 2008)

I have a VHS from the 70's that refers to "pack drive" so i don;t see how this term is new at all. -shrugs- JMO


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Hi Amy,

Apparently it didn't catch on in the 70s, and is only being revisited publicly now. I'm sure there are other terms I haven't heard but given the recent popularity of recognizing and defining drives in a dog one would think that if pack drive were considered legitimate, more advanced trainers would have hawked the notion already. Just sayin....

Howard


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## marta wade (Apr 17, 2008)

As a more of a newbie than experienced I am curious what "drives" do the experience people feel are real drives. My understanding of a drive is something in the dog that links to survival. I understood that many drives can be used in training but some are just drives of survival. Would the following be all real drives in dogs

prey
food
sex
fight

I did think pack was one of survial but if Pack is not a drive are there other drives not listed? I would think toy/play is really under Prey drive. 
Marta


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Well, I knew someone would ask this sooner or later. You can add "Hunt" to the list as well.

Howard


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Howard Knauf said:


> Well, I knew someone would ask this sooner or later. You can add "Hunt" to the list as well.
> 
> Howard


Howard to Howard are you there?
Isn't the hunt and prey drive almost one in the same? The line that seperates the two is so fine...Herding is a refined drive from the prey drive, the willingness to chase things. Herding is the controlled movement and fetching of livestock or other targeted animals.
Sex drive is close to the pray drive, you hope to score! Hoping for things not seen...\\/ [-o<


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Oh boy, this is gonna turn into one of those threads where we go on and on debating what is a "drive" and what is not.

I'll stick with Gillian's quote on this one:
_"What I call it doesn't really matter - it's what I see that's important."_

That being said, does anybody like a dog who has low pack drive (or whatever you want to call it)?


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

How much a dog wants to interact with the person or persons it lives with.

It is nice, but I have a co dependant dog as it is, and I am not so used to it. It is nice in some ways, as he is not so likely to run off and leave me.

Over all for me it is just part of the picture.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I would take a dog with low pack drive, especially with todays sorta clingy dogs. LOL It would have to bring it though, as that is number one for me.....well mostly. LOL


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

H-III,

I consider the two different, and separately. The stimulous to chase prey is immediate. The drive to hunt for something unknown...or unseen prior to the hunt is very desireable especially if doing any kind of serious work like bombs, drugs, accellerants or SAR. A high prey drive dog may very well be low in hunt drive. That type of dog I wouldn't work on the street.

Howard


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

Jeff just because a dog has pack drive doesn't mean the dog has to be needy. Mine sure as shit isn't codependant. My breeder talked about pack drive with me 2 years ago, not a new catch phrase. He said he expected high pack drive with that litter and he was correct. It took some time for it to come out (about 10 months of age). My dog was quite the independant a hole, that gave me the finger there for awhile, worked for a bribe/himself only in the beggining. Once I added corrections, he started cooperating, he will practically kill himslef to get it right and needs very little correction now, verbal que is usually enough. My breeder describbed pack menatilty as, "a huge erge to please his handler and a very close bond and in tune with 1 person above all others". That descpription fits my dog to a T. With his degree of independence, without the pack drive, I would be screwed. I think I would be stuck in that place where if the ball or toy wasn't present, he wouldn't work for me.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Howard Knauf said:


> H-III,
> 
> I consider the two different, and separately. The stimulous to chase prey is immediate. The drive to hunt for something unknown...or unseen prior to the hunt is very desireable especially if doing any kind of serious work like bombs, drugs, accellerants or SAR. A high prey drive dog may very well be low in hunt drive. That type of dog I wouldn't work on the street.
> 
> Howard


Ditto with Howard!
I've saw a number of very high level prey dogs wash out of SAR because of the lack of hunt drive. 
Prey is the desire to chase! That's based on a visual stimulus. 
Hunt is the desire to keep searching even if the prey isn't in view.


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Well, this "expert" says there are only three drives - Pack, Prey and Defense.
http://www.ehow.com/video_2321094_understand-dog-drives.html


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Hi Konnie,

I watched the video. I've not heard of this expert...then again, there are a lot of experts in dog training that I've never heard of. The problem is, who determines a trainers' expertise? Dog training is so subjective that it is impossible to clearly define perameters without those perameters being questioned. Much like the current threads on the Koehler methods which was the bible at the time, they are being questioned now.

So...This training expert made a lot of good sense in his video but there were several points in which I disagree with him. Now, I do not consider myself an "Expert" (even though one local court does) so I can still concede that for every trainer there is a different idealogical thinking process for each individual trainer.

The neat thing about these forums is that we can all express our individual training thoughts and hope to further our knowledge base daily so that one day we may all become experts.

Howard


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Bob Scott said:


> Ditto with Howard!
> I've saw a number of very high level prey dogs wash out of SAR because of the lack of hunt drive.
> Prey is the desire to chase! That's based on a visual stimulus.
> Hunt is the desire to keep searching even if the prey isn't in view.


I guess this should be a new thread, but going back to my waterfowl hunting days and Lab training, how much importance do you then place on the* retrieve*? I have always felt that any breed of dog that wants to retrieve is a dog that wants to please. The logic is as follows: It moves in a prey mode, shifts to a hunt mode, and finally returns to the handler to give up the thing IT found.

When buying working dogs, I like a puppy that will search for tossed keys, pick them up, OWN them, and bring them back to me. I had a male Bouvier puppy from this breeding that did it and at 7-8 weeks of age showed some interesting possibilities. I kept a female instead. Some dogs don't like metal in their mouth, metalic taste I guess. The drive to hunt for the keys, the flash and sound are things that I want to see puppies checking out. The retrieve...


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Howard Knauf said:


> Hi Konnie,
> 
> I watched the video. I've not heard of this expert...then again, there are a lot of experts in dog training that I've never heard of. The problem is, who determines a trainers' expertise? Dog training is so subjective that it is impossible to clearly define perameters without those perameters being questioned. Much like the current threads on the Koehler methods which was the bible at the time, they are being questioned now.
> 
> ...


Howard: 
I was totally joking about the expert thing. I've never heard of the guy either. I just did a google search and came up with his video. I was trying to be funny


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## Rod Roberts (Nov 7, 2007)

Its all a bit complicated and sickly for me I thought they were just dogs?
here's a link http://landofpuregold.com/personality.htm


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## Will Kline (Jan 10, 2008)

Howard Gaines III said:


> Will were you ever a soccer goalie? Maybe head damage on a post corner? Too much time in the sun? Umn...\\/


No, but I DID stay at a Holiday Inn Express lastnight!  =P~ :-\"


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Hi Konnie,

If there was an emoticon here that depicted something going right over my head I'd use it.:-\"

Howard


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Howard Knauf said:


> Hi Konnie,
> 
> If there was an emoticon here that depicted something going right over my head I'd use it.:-\"
> 
> Howard


I had to search for the emoticon with the tongue sticking out. Found it here:
http://www.clipartof.com/new/emoticons/4.html

I like this one:


and this one:


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

OK. Those are just as good. Made me laugh.

Howard


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Off topic but, it appears I ate the tug. Surprise!=D>


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Howard Knauf said:


> Off topic but, it appears I ate the tug. Surprise!=D>


Does that mean you have high tug drive? Or is that high food drive? I'm confused


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Don't poke at the gator, Konnie.[-X I might get ignorant on ya.


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

I just threw this word into an e-mail with Konnie last week. 

I was thinking of it kind of in terms of the words that Konnie copied from a seminar, not any of the links people posted.

I think of it very differently than biddability. (which could be a whole other thread because sometimes I really wonder if that even exists the way people romanticize it)

My dog is not what I would consider biddable (though some might). He hates to be petted, and is not a shmoozy codependent. But yet I still used that descripter of pack drive when having a conversation about searching. I don't even know why. I was thinking about teamwork (the dog and I) in the hunt. Like a pack hunting together.


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Howard Knauf said:


> Don't poke at the gator, Konnie.[-X I might get ignorant on ya.


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Jennifer Coulter said:


> I just threw this word into an e-mail with Konnie last week.
> 
> I was thinking of it kind of in terms of the words that Konnie copied from a seminar, not any of the links people posted.
> 
> ...


I know a few search dogs that don't have great hunt drive who work for their handlers despite that lack of drive. I always thought these dogs were working well due to pack drive. They seemed to work just because that's what their handler wanted. They weren't what I would classify as great searchers, and I'm not sure how they would perform during long-term searching, but they did OK enough to pass the evaluations.

From the videos you've posted of your dog, Jennifer, I think there's something more at work than just pack drive, but I'm no expert (not like that guy from e-how!).

Hmmm...biddability. Another word that needs defining. I've known 2 Malinois and a fair number of Border Collies that I felt were very biddable. They needed very little direction and formal obedience (if any) to get the job done.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Konnie Hein said:


> I know a few search dogs that don't have great hunt drive who work for their handlers despite that lack of drive. I always thought these dogs were working well due to pack drive. They seemed to work just because that's what their handler wanted. They weren't what I would classify as great searchers, and I'm not sure how they would perform during long-term searching, but they did OK enough to pass the evaluations.
> 
> From the videos you've posted of your dog, Jennifer, I think there's something more at work than just pack drive, but I'm no expert (not like that guy from e-how!).
> 
> Hmmm...biddability. Another word that needs defining. I've known 2 Malinois and a fair number of Border Collies that I felt were very biddable. They needed very little direction and formal obedience (if any) to get the job done.


I think that most evaluations can often be a "trained" response. There has to be something to test the dog but a good eye for dogs can still find a good dog. Like any good sport dog, a good trainer can bring out the best of what's there but that doesn't make it a "real" dog. Same with a SAR dog. I saw to many "certifyed" dogs that shouldn't be. 
Hunting just because it's a biddable dog is something that would make me a bit leary in a real world situation. That "hunt drive", obsession with finding something/someone, whatever we want to call it is what makes the "real" dogs.


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## Mike charatin (Apr 9, 2008)

Would you consider pack drive to be the same as rank as all diffrent ranks in the pack act diffrently?


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Pack drive is the willingness/desire to work with the "pack".
Rank is the desire to run the show and a willingness to use power to get it. 
Both can be looked at as leadership or lack there of.


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Bob Scott said:


> Hunting just because it's a biddable dog is something that would make me a bit leary in a real world situation. That "hunt drive", obsession with finding something/someone, whatever we want to call it is what makes the "real" dogs.


I concure!


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> I think that most evaluations can often be a "trained" response. There has to be something to test the dog but a good eye for dogs can still find a good dog. Like any good sport dog, a good trainer can bring out the best of what's there but that doesn't make it a "real" dog. Same with a SAR dog. I saw to many "certifyed" dogs that shouldn't be.
> Hunting just because it's a biddable dog is something that would make me a bit leary in a real world situation. That "hunt drive", obsession with finding something/someone, whatever we want to call it is what makes the "real" dogs.


Agreed!


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## Mike charatin (Apr 9, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> Pack drive is the willingness/desire to work with the "pack".
> Rank is the desire to run the show and a willingness to use power to get it.
> Both can be looked at as leadership or lack there of.


I think we are on the same page. I think that the strong ones alpha/ beta have to work with the pack more than lets say omega. I also think that when it comes to physical work as in the hunt and kill the lower ranking ones would be a little less than the leaders becouse of there statis. After all they eat last. This is an attemt to get some feed back and maybe belongs in another catogory.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I would also say that to many people blame their lack of control on a dog as having an Alpha dog is mostly bs. Lack of leadership doesn't make a dog alpha. It just lets the dog run the show. There are very few true Alpha dogs. JMHO!


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

I agree, Bob. Can't tell you how many times people tell me that their dog was/is an alpha male. At that point all I hear is blah blah blah!

Howard


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Konnie Hein said:


> Does that mean you have high tug drive? Or is that high food drive? I'm confused


Needed fiber in his diet I'll bet! There is an easier method...=;


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Bob Scott said:


> I would also say that to many people blame their lack of control on a dog as having an Alpha dog is mostly bs. Lack of leadership doesn't make a dog alpha. It just lets the dog run the show. There are very few true Alpha dogs. JMHO!


Bob and I'll bet the farm that they have Alpha kids too! Lead, follow, or get out of the way...=;


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Howard Gaines III said:


> Bob and I'll bet the farm that they have Alpha kids too! Lead, follow, or get out of the way...=;


My 23 yr old son is always asking me where all this motivational crap was when he was being raised. 
Course alpha momma always kept me from doing to much Koehler  training with him. :grin: :grin:


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Howard Gaines III said:


> Bob and I'll bet the farm that they have Alpha kids too! Lead, follow, or get out of the way...=;


Hey - stop talking about my pet dog training clients that way!!


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Konnie Hein said:


> Hey - stop talking about my pet dog training clients that way!!


:lol: :lol: :lol: You can teach the ignorant but ya can't fix stupid! ;-)


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> :lol: :lol: :lol: You can teach the ignorant but ya can't fix stupid! ;-)


Honestly though, lately I've been blessed with some good clients who pick up on things pretty quick. Lucky me! (lucky dogs, too)


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Nothing more frustrating then seeing a dog with really nice potential and owners that will never get it. 
The owners that "get it" often go on to another/ better dog.


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

My dog has more potential than I do, and I'm not upset about it.


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## Lyn Chen (Jun 19, 2006)

Well, since we're on this subject, what do you guys think of social aggression...is it part of pack drive?


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Lyn Chen said:


> Well, since we're on this subject, what do you guys think of social aggression...is it part of pack drive?


ADHD? More info


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

Here's some definitions of the two, as others have described...



> 2.4. Pack Drive
> 
> We know that dogs are highly social animals, just like their wolf ancestors. They naturally want to be part of a group or pack. As with all drives, dogs vary greatly as to degree of pack drive. A dog who is independent and aloof even with his own family would be considered to be low in pack drive. A more social dog who can't stand to be left out of anything the humans are doing would be higher in pack drive.
> 
> ...





> Social aggression
> 
> Social aggression is the only type of aggression that can be categorized as active aggression. Even though the term active aggression is used frequently, it really only applies here. The reason social aggression is called active aggression is because it really does not require any specific action as a trigger stimulus. Social aggression serves two purposes of biological significance. One is ensuring the even distribution of a species across a given territory by repelling equally strong individuals. And the other is to establish and maintain order in social units such as a pack. Social aggression is always directed at the individual's own kind. In the breeds that were created for police and military service, selection took place that expanded the direction of social aggression to also included the dog's adopted kind, humans. As an example of contrast, in the dog fighting breeds, selection took place to ensure that the social aggression would not include humans.
> 
> ...


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

An extended comparison from Armin Winkler...



> Mistrust
> 
> I am putting mistrust as part of the defensive drive points. The reason for this is that aside from socially aggressive dogs, we can also have mistrusting active defensive dogs who appear to be almost the same thing. Naturally, the other forms of defensive reactions occur as well, since they are triggered by the same stimulus. But only the active defensive dogs will appear like a socially aggressive dog. To a certain degree this form of re-active aggression does fall under the aspects of social behaviors. Mistrust of strangers is what will lead to the worry that may trigger the defensive response in the dog, no matter what the response may be. The difference between this and social aggression is the following: the socially aggressive dog, as I see it, is not really in defense drive. He treats strangers with aggression, period. I'm sure trust plays a role here but is not a deciding factor. As I mentioned under social aggression, the aggressive response does not stop (if left uncontrolled) until integration occurs. But a mistrusting defensive dog will stop reacting defensive towards the person as soon as the threat of mistrust is neutralized. Once this is done such dogs can be social towards people they would have met with aggression before.


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## Lyn Chen (Jun 19, 2006)

From what Daryl quoted:

_They were that the dogs show mistrust and aggression against strangers and that they are very devoted and loyal with the family and very loving with children. To me this combination of qualities stem from a very strong closed pack oriented social behavior. That means loyalty and devotion to members in the pack and aggression against all outsiders, even those belonging to the same species._

Hence why I was asking if anyone else thought social aggression was an extension of a very pack-driven dog. And why I earlier posted that I don't think pack drive has as much to do with what people view as 'biddability', since biddability could just mean a softer dog overall. The second dog I mentioned earlier is socially aggressive, as well as being very caring and literally non-aggressive to anyone he thinks is 'in' the pack (i.e. to him people and dogs who have lived with us, he does not care much even for friends he sees often if they don't live with us). The other dog will cease aggression or discomfort if shown that the stranger is friendly after all. 

I have heard active aggression mentioned both as prey (versus defence, reactive) and as social aggression, and a dog with the so-called fight drive is a dog with prey+pack drive (or, social aggression). 

Howard, it isn't ADHD at all but a different view of looking at things, and as you see, I didn't come up with it.


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