# Back to basics?



## Ashley Clark (Sep 8, 2017)

Our Australian Cattle Dog is 18 months or so old now. He's been working the goats since he was a year. Something I'm running into recently is that suddenly, nothing I do seems to phase him. Before, he was good about herding, would out and down on command, and left the horses alone. Recently, he has just stopped responding to commands around the livestock. Runs them the wrong way, biting them, leaving punctures, even dragged my smallest nanny down to the ground by a front leg and leaving a big puncture, and bit up two of the other nanny's legs. It's not herding, it's livestock harassment. The goats are reasonably compliant, for goats, and aren't challenging him, unfortunately, there is no way I can catch them other than using a dog when they get out. They just scatter like roaches with the light on. All this was within a single 30 minutes last week. After the goats were back where they belong, he decided he was going to chase after my horses.
I don't worry too much about the horses injury wise because I know the dog is going to get his stupid head kicked off by them, that's just more of a safety for him because he could easily be killed by one of them. I'd almost just let him get kicked in the head good and hard by one of them, except I know it wouldn't stop him. Kind of like chasing cars, he got smoked by a car a few months ago, gimped around for a few days, and was right back at it.

So, it's like he's in a trance with it, doesn't hear me at all (I know he does). He had good control before, and now is an out of control little ahole. I have a couple of ideas but wanted to bounce them off someone else for feedback. I've had plenty of ACD's and never one that just didn't care and did what it wanted. 
Not in any particular order after #1.
Idea 1 - back to basics. Obviously no more livestock work with him until he pulls his head out of his ass and listens to commands again. He's still fine away from the livestock with good obedience, but around the livestock, I got nothing but a dog with a blank stare.

Idea 2 - Longline - Back to the livestock on a longline where I have some control. I'm not thrilled with this idea in particular since he's biting them and I don't need to deal with more medical issues. Debating muzzling him for long-line sessions just for livestock safety. I have some consideration that this might frustrate him further.

Idea 3 - E-collar. I have one, I have no problem using it. Not sure if it'll "zap him back to reality" when he isn't listening, this is probably the hardest headed dog I've ever seen.

He's not an indoor pet or anything, I don't take him with me to feed, he's separated from the livestock any time he isn't working. Maybe that's an option too is to take him with me (on a leash) when I feed so he might learn that being around livestock doesn't always mean to herd them. I don't know, he'll probably just learn that if the leash is on he'll have to behave because he doesn't have a choice.

I'm welcome to any other ideas!


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

Welcome !

1. you’ve provided a great description of both your problems and some of the reasons why you are having them.
2. the ideas you have listed so far seem to back that up
3. usually i would say, “please post a video”, but because your post was so descriptive, i don’t need one. 

if you are willing to consider you may have caused a lot of the problems i would be glad to offer an alternative way to deal with the issues.

from my perspective, "back to basics" is on point, but if all that means to you is more control measures i doubt it will solve the problem, so i won’t suggest any more at this point in time and would be wasting your time if i did.


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Rick,

If you've got a suggestion then throw it out there. The OP gave a good description of her problem and needs help. She's here to learn, not prove to us what she knows, or doesn't know. It sounds to me that you know what to do to fix this dog. Throw her a bone will ya? 

Personally...I'd flood the dog by exposing it to more contact with the animals like feeding times etc like the OP considered. I'd also use the ecollar as well like she considered. It sounds as if she's got experience in herding dogs and this one is a hard case but she's willing to give it a fair chance.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

Howard (and the OP)
i read the post carefully... a few times ;-)
i'm not trying to make her prove anything about what she might know 
,,,and i'm not trying to be "cryptic" either 

i posted what i did for a reason and was trying to be careful about how i worded it


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

Howard ... and Ashley

i agree with flooding in many training situations. (and i know Matt hates it :razz
- but ONLY when you can control the dog 100% and prevent it from bailing or choosing another option

Ashley has already posted that this is probably NOT possible, therefore i would NOT choose it


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

Howard and Ashley

i have used Ecollars a LOT. like em. have a couple Dogtra's and an Einstein i don't need anymore 

one suggestion i would have offered is to use it to lay a foundation for a solid recall, since this dog DOESN"T have one right now, and if it's already been nailed by a car, the problem is CLEARLY NOT just with livestock 
- but i wouldn't throw it on and use it for a bigger hammer...as she has posted that she is considering
- now would i allow it near horses at this point in time. 
- now would i isolate it when not around livestock

- there is a LOT lacking right now in terms of her bond with the dog
- a LOT of mutual respect and trust is missing ... or was never there
- that has NOTHING to do with a herding issue and WILL NOT be fixed by an Ecollar or long line alone

that should give you both a teeny bit about where i'm coming from and that's as clear as i can get
- so cut/paste what isn't, but please don't put words in my mouth


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

Howard ... maybe Ashley 
your comment "throw her a bone will ya " got me thinking :lol::lol:

i can't remember EVER throwing a bone to any dog, so i doubt i will start with people //rotflmao//

- even with my own dog, who's going on 12, and he bit the hell outa me when i first met him many years ago 
- i still make him get up and at least get two feet airborne to get it from my hand. that was tricky when i was feeding him beef neck bones, but taught me a lot and paid dividends in my tugging 
- i think people might be surprised how even an aggressive dog can be conditioned to get a bone that way

done enuff posting on this thread...hope the OP comes back and weighs in

gonna shoot 2 dogs today
...with a Nikon //LOL//


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

The recall is definately NOT there. Back to basics on that one. Without that the rest is chaffe.


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## Khoi Pham (Apr 17, 2006)

I don't know crap about herding, but to decrease behavior like biting and chasing unwanted livestock should work with e-collar using Positive Punishment. I would not let him know that the correction is coming from you, in other words, don't say NO and zap him, find a level that he can feel the unpleasant of the electric, not so high that it would freak him out, when he is herding and biting hard, I guess that is not acceptable in herding, I would just hold the continuous button down until he stop the behavior then release the button. The key is letting him learn that this behavior is causing the unpleasant, stop doing it and you can still herd and satisfy your drive to herd, not letting him know that the punishment is coming from you, because he will learn that if you are not there, he will get away with biting and doing bad behavior, just let him learn that the behavior is causing the unpleasant itself.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

since you said the LGD stays with the goats, what does it do when the dog joins up ??
- do they get along ?
- does the LGD drive the dog off ?
- or does the LGD not stay with the goats all the time ?

why can't you work the problem in a more controlled way ? with ONE goat and the dog ?

i wouldn't slap on the Ecollar just yet.
- why would you want to let the dog loose on its own and hide somewhere with an Ecollar transmitter and take yourself out of the picture ?
- why would you want to condition the dog to avoid the goats ? the herders i've seen working are up close and personal with the goats and nipping at them never seemed to bother the handler. 
- if you're not there to direct the dog, he's being left alone and that is setting him up to fail. how does he know what to do if you're not giving the proper herding commands. is he supposed to know where the goats should go ?
- E-collars are great once you have properly conditioned the dog to them, but not as effective when used as a hammer. there are a zillion ways to start with it before you zap him while biting, but you haven't indicated you will be doing more than that with an Ecollar

since he has taken one down and caused med bills, he's PREDATING not just being "rough". that is a bigger problem and indicates a much higher drive level than rough housing. i'm sure you already know this since this isn't your first rodeo with ACD's 
- i have dog who predates and will easily power thru a VERY high Ecollar stim to get a tanuki (racoon dog in Japanese) 

you also said he's fine with the livestock and has good obedience. what does that mean specifically ? you should be doing OB with him near and around them while keeping control of him. again, maybe just with one or two, not the WHOLE group who scatter like roaches, which amps up his prey drive even more
- OB by itself is useless if it can't be transferred to the real world and your real world are the goats. in my opinion he needs his OB drills near AND around them

ill just mention the recall once more...i'd like to know why it's not in your toolbox, since if he had one this would be a NON-problem
- it's one of those tools that everyone agrees is important but is never mentioned when discussing a problem //lol//
- and one good way i can measure the bond between the dog and handler


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

There used to be a couple of good herding folks on the forum and hopefully one will surface. In the mean time…..

Me, I’m wondering a bit of what changed? Something has happened and only you may know what. Normally a dog doing well suddenly doesn’t go down the tubes without a reason. Especially, when he escalates to the point of seriously attacking livestock. The issue with going to and relying on an e-collar means you will have to keep it on the dog. Pretty much forever. Trust me, the dog will know how to toe the line wearing the e-collar but will take advantage of the fact when he is not. Khoi is right about the positive punishment angle. But I would to use it in conjunction with other methods.

I have never had an ACD nor trained a dog specifically to herd but have had livestock and have worked with dogs around livestock. I can’t speak for your goats but we have our sheep, cows, pigs, and even the chickens (and horses when we had them) all trained to come to a vocal call and whistle. “Here Sheep” Or “Come on Cows” along with a grain bucket shaking would result in a stampede to the barn lot. I’m not sure how big your fields are but we could whistle/call them up from 40-50 acres away. And everything came to the whistle call we used. Somehow I think you are relying too much on a dog and not taking advantage of a herbivore’s bottomless stomach. Anyway, back to the dog issue.

ACD’s were developed as a drover’s dog. They work by nipping the heels of cattle to move them along and some cows can be down right ornery. The dog had to be strong enough and aggressive enough to maintain control. The amount of pressure a dog can exert on a cow is different then the amount of pressure a dog can use on a goat. The animals’ behaviors are similar but not the same. I’m suspecting the dog is trying to deal with the goats the way it’s genetics dictate it would on a cow. Which could be too hard for a goat. And the more they question the dog the worse it gets. 

You’ve had ACDs before but have you used an ACD before in the same application you are using this dog in? Somehow I’m wondering if a border collie would suit the situation better. That the working manners of a BC may be more in line with this task of lifting and gathering goats than the ACD. 

I’m going to throw out some suggestions but do you have a good livestock herding trainer by you? If not right close, someone who knows someone that you can call? Its helps sometime when you can talk with someone versus typing the great American novel on the internet.

The first thing to consider is genetics with this particular dog’s line. It could be there is a genetic defect that is showing up due to the dog maturing into an adult. Call it bad nerves, call it being to mouthy, or aggressive but there’s something going on in this dog’s head. Have you called the breeder where you got this dog from and discussed this development with them? Good genetics make all the difference in some things. If you know anyone else that has gotten this guy’s dogs, I would make an effort to find one or two of them and see what their results have been. Ideally, from the same litter.

The next thing is to only work him on adult stock. No babies or young stock. Young stock (due to their herky, jerky movements) can excite the prey drive while the movements of adults won’t. I won’t introduce a dog to young stock until it’s matured up and controlled with adults. I’m not saying young dogs can’t work with young stock but if they are singling them out, I would pull the dog off of young stock for another 6-12 months. 

I don’t know how you originally trained him or if he came pre-trained and you just took over. If he came pre-trained, he’s figured out you lack the teeth to control his impulses and its became a free-for-all. If that’s the case then call up the guy who did the initial training and send him back for a tune-up. If it was you then I would go back to however you did the basic work. If this means a medium sized barn lot and a long line, then that’s what you do. I’m not a total fan of working a dog on a line with stock as there’s always one pigheaded fool that bolts between you and the dog and catches the line with a hoof. But I do work in a pen big enough to let the dog have room to work and the stock a place to get moved to BUT it’s small enough I can catch up and correct the dog physically if necessary. I’ve been know to carry a lunge whip when letting my dogs in with the stock. It’s not for the stock, it’s for control of the dog.

I do like the suggestion of putting him in a muzzle while around the stock. A nice basket one. You need to make sure it’s on correctly and tight enough. You don’t want it slipping off by accident. Because if your goats are like our sheep, after they got worked over by that dog pack, they will become even more flighty and run to escape the dog. Which makes the aggression toward the goats and the biting issue stronger.

Work him away and with the stock but you control it. The other thing is you might not be working him enough. This breed is a hardcore working breed, some of this biting and chasing could be because he’s bored and when let out he’s after a bit of fun. You might want to consider taking the dog out when you do chores. One thing the German herding guys do is tether the dog to them. The dog is on a leash (tied to the guy’s waist) and that dog goes where he goes and does what he does. The dog isn’t running around but he’s restrained and encounters are structured.

The long story short is that you have to back this dog up and get control of the situation. You can't allow this dog to savage the stock and if this means some strong armed measures then that's may where you have to go.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I agree with Howard on the recall needs serious work and Kohi on his comments.

I think a dog that spends the day running hard after stock should never wear a muzzle unless it has the room for open mouth, heavy breathing. 

Most don't give the dog the room for all the heavy breathing required of the dog.

I don't think I would call the dog off with the collar but certainly for the biting. 

Get the recall solid by building distractions away from work the stock until the dog" response is solid. 

That gives you a bit of room to learn the collar and the dog's reactions to the collar. 

Some dogs will just get fired up when zapped with the collar.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

a properly fitted muzzle that's gonna be worn for EXTENDED periods should ABSOLUTELY have enough room for a dog to pant and cool down. it should also be able to drink water while wearing it. a lot of muzzles won't allow that and a lot of dogs aren't conditioned properly and won't drink while wearing one. both are bad
- clear plastic perforated jafcos with a hole enlarged for the tongue will work fine for your use. i've used them on many dogs and i've tried 3-4 other types and always went back to the jafcos
- in fact a jafco modified this way will be ideal for a herder who is allowed some nipping 

different story if you are only using them for a few minutes of bite work


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## Gina Mezin (Mar 8, 2016)

Interesting discussion. Maybe the OP found a herding forum. The BC from top working lines that I had as a kid was beyond my ability to train to recall. He wasnt a biting dog though. He loved to train with me as long as it was in a way he liked it. I think I had a bonding issue now that I'm learning about that. I think back then, I needed, and still need to learn about applying postive punishment. My ACD/BC adolecent is a handful in a lot of ways. Just like the BC of my youth, she is very quick to obey when she is having a great time. I'm trying to work on building our relationship first and formost and giving a correction when she blows me off (part of the relationship) And, yes, she loves to bite and wants to herd/bite Kibo. Sadly, I haven't taken her to my obedience/bitework class as of yet, but we stay busy. Seems herding dogs love controlling stock and dodging blows/correction from stock and handlers that don't have the upper hand (Me included!).


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Clarification: the muzzle was to be worn during the stock training periods. Not indefinitely. A good basket muzzle will allow for some heavy breathing during the time specifically spent training. It's a short gap method to prevent stock abuse while dealing with stock abuse. E-collars only go so far and you sure don't want to become dependent on one to enforce proper behavior.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

since it appears we are only talking to each other.....

re : "Clarification: the muzzle was to be worn during the stock training periods. Not indefinitely. A good basket muzzle will allow for some heavy breathing during the time specifically spent training. It's a short gap method to prevent stock abuse while dealing with stock abuse. E-collars only go so far and you sure don't want to become dependent on one to enforce proper behavior."
-- noted

if you recall my many posts regarding muzzles, you know i use them a LOT for many different reasons. and require anyone i train with to condition their dog to wearing one. meaning the dog will doze off while wearing one. i want a dog to react to a muzzle the same way they react to putting on a collar...with indifference
- i won't repeat all the benefits i have found for using them, but that's the main reason i want one that can be worn for extended periods and for sure i never want a dog associating 'anything' when a muzzle goes on, and i don't want the muzzle to cue any behavior
- i hate to see a dog rub the ground, or their handler, or try to shake it off. and that is what i see all the time when an unconditioned dog gets muzzled. that is a non issue when it's part of basic foundation work, so i'll stick to what works for me over the years
- and it has never been challenging to do. even for new dog owners

that's my clarification ... ymmv


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## Ashley Clark (Sep 8, 2017)

No, I didn't wander off, if you can imagine, I'm pretty busy having livestock! I'm going to attempt to address most of the posts here, but excuse me if I miss some since the thread blew up 2 pages over night.

Ok, so it was a lot to read, we'll start with the recall. The dog has a solid recall away from the livestock. The car incident was accidental, nobody called him off, basically he was out with my husband who was busy digging through his truck and the dog took off after a car without him noticing. Accidents happen. Luckily for the dog, our road is mostly slow moving traffic, so bumps and bruises. 

I've never worked an ACD around goats. I grew up on a ranch, and we used them for large livestock, so there is that. Goats aren't like sheep and cattle, (well, most cattle) they tend to be a bit more aggressive, whereas sheep will run in a flock, goats have no problem scattering like roaches on a dog, or turning and butting a dog. I've never had one get that aggressive with any livestock that was compliant. I guess that's where I'm a bit lost because at the time of the goats getting abused, they were compliant and moving away from him. I'd have no issue with it if the dog is showing he's the boss by biting livestock that isn't complying.
Horses are, and have always been, off limits to herding. No reason for it since my horses think I'm the great food God and literally stand at the gate and call to me as soon as I leave my house. I'm back to working on him to realize that is not something you are allowed to chase, because there's no need for it, and eventually he's going to get his head kicked off for it. I know that's a reality, since one horse runs from him, the other stands and kicks at him and won't move, and the third will turn and chase the dog while striking at him. 

All my goats are adults, my "little" nanny isn't going to get any bigger (pygmy goats, about the size of the dog), they are new additions from last week, and skittish. That will get better with time, but the bottomless stomach (i.e. shaking a bucket of feed which is my go-to for catching anything that doesn't want to be caught) doesn't quite apply yet. Dog applies because where they got out isn't fenced and they can get in the road...they are too fast for me to run after in an open area, I can catch them easily enough in the pen. Long story short, they slipped by me at the gate and got out into the fenced pasture for the horses. Due to their small size, they can easily slip through the horse pasture and into the yard and road.

Recall with distractions is a good point. It needs to be the animal distraction, because like with cars he'll stop dead in his tracks if I call him off...not so for the livestock. That's where I think a long line comes into play because I can reel him back in if the recall fails.

He has had a behavioral change. My husband has been down in TX for the last month and the dog obviously misses him; not trying to anthropomorphize here but that's what it looks like. There's been other things, but they aren't worth mentioning since it's "pet problems" (i.e. house soiling and the dog has been well housetrained for the better part of a year, stuff like that). He is bonded to my husband more so than me, but my husband is still "in training" for working with the herding dog, he's a lab guy that likes to hunt with his dogs. When I say he's not a pet, he is allowed in the house in the evenings or if it's raining and such. I work him until he's tired in the mornings (fetch, frisbee, tug), just to take the edge off. ACD's are pretty hyper dogs. Just not a pet in the sense that most people think of a pet. 
While I love my animals, they all have a job to do as well. 

Genetics, this dog came to us at 5 weeks. Long story short, one of my friends works for animal control, and he came off a farmers property who surrendered the whole litter. I know the farmer personally, his health is poor due to Hep C and diabetes and just felt he couldn't take care of them anymore. No papers or anything. Small community and whatnot, the rest of the litter went to a rescue, I just got first pic since I know the ACO. This farmers dogs are good, and used for cattle. The farmer used to have a good breeding program, but due to his health he had an over abundance of "oops" litters. Basically, he turned all his dogs out together to make feeding them easier on him, and things got way out of control fast. My ACO friend said she thinks there is 100+ dogs out there, all ACD's. 
Training: Basic OB, not with livestock around. Outside of being around them, dog knows all the basics, down, stay, plus others for directional control (left, right, etc) The last six months he's been working the livestock without the biting and brain-dead issues. I could call him off, direct, etc. My guess is the reward chasing after livestock is greater than the reward he gets for doing as he's told. He's very food motivated, but the tennis ball and tug toy were the holy grail. I use them for positive reinforcement for good behavior (i.e. down-stay, release, immediate favorite toy). 

The LGD - LGD is a 6 month old pup. Lives with the goats. She's still learning what's what. Six months is too early to expect too much from her, other than barking at stuff that doesn't belong. She gets along fine with the ACD, they're pretty good buddies. She isn't bonded in with the newer goats yet, she's bonded up well with the bigger goats (full sized dairy goats) and is getting more used to the new ones. She spent a day away when I added to my herd because she growled and chased the new goats off (not her goats) but is now used to them. 
The LGD wasn't there with the goats when this transpired. I was actually taking her to the vet for her rabies vaccine and she was in my truck. I can't say how she'd react to that, since she wasn't there. 

Muzzling - just for work around the stock, not a permanent fixture outside of working with them. The thought on that is to ease off of using it as a crutch where he learns that biting the livestock is not acceptable. Basically, so he can't bite them while I get more focus out of him, and eventually take it off when he's a bit more trustworthy. 


Goats aren't like sheep. They have more "fight" in the fight or flight response. If backed into a corner they will certainly defend themselves, not try to run from the dog. They are more intelligent than sheep by far, which has it's downsides because they are excellent escape artists.

I think desensitizing him by taking him out with me when I feed (on a leash) and doing some basic OB around the critters might help. I mention the e-collar because I do have it, I have used it on other dogs, just for a reality check that "no means no right now, not when you feel like it" - mostly aversion. It's an option, but more of a last ditch effort. 

Rehoming him isn't an option, my husband loves the little ahole dearly. I rather like him too. It's either training, or he's not allowed around the livestock. I have debated getting a border collie, but I've had a couple of those growing up (my parents have about 8 or 9 dogs, a Catahoula, border collies, and 2 GSD's - personally love the Catahoula but she's older than dirt) and they are a bit too hyper for my taste. My first dog was an ACD and a great dog, very responsive, loyal, just all around the best dog I've ever had, but she's long gone, it'll be 15 years next week. 

I think I got most of it, I tried to answer everyone's questions and touch on some of the comments.


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Ashley Clark said:


> He has had a behavioral change. My husband has been down in TX for the last month and the dog obviously misses him; not trying to anthropomorphize here but that's what it looks like. There's been other things, but they aren't worth mentioning since it's "pet problems" (i.e. house soiling and the dog has been well housetrained for the better part of a year, stuff like that). He is bonded to my husband more so than me, but my husband is still "in training" for working with the herding dog, he's a lab guy that likes to hunt with his dogs. When I say he's not a pet, he is allowed in the house in the evenings or if it's raining and such. I work him until he's tired in the mornings (fetch, frisbee, tug), just to take the edge off. ACD's are pretty hyper dogs. Just not a pet in the sense that most people think of a pet.
> While I love my animals, they all have a job to do as well.


This could be your trigger. Even "Pet problems" are part of the big picture because its all aberrant behavior and outside what, up to this point, has been normal.

A LGD at 6 months is still puppy and I'm not sure how he what he would have done as the ACD is suppose to be there. A member of the household unlike a strange dog or coyote.

I will think on the rest.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

Tx Ashley.....hope my responses to your are easy to see 


No, I didn't wander off, 
——— good. easy way for us not to think u bailed is to post a one liner….”busy on the farm; will get back to you when i can”. my time is mostly taken up with photography these days, but i did read over your response a few times, and tried to give my response a review…..i cut/paste to try and be clear….hope you do the same

Ok, so it was a lot to read,
——— hope thta’s a good thing. if it’s too much just let us know. i put some srious thought into this but it’s still “quick and dirty” //rotflmao//


we'll start with the recall. The dog has a solid recall away from the livestock.
——— great. use it


The car incident was accidental, nobody called him off, basically he was out with my husband who was busy digging through his truck and the dog took off after a car without him noticing. Accidents happen. Luckily for the dog, our road is mostly slow moving traffic, so bumps and bruises. 
——— so what have you done to wean him off cars ??


I've never worked an ACD around goats. I grew up on a ranch, and we used them for large livestock, so there is that. Goats aren't like sheep and cattle, (well, most cattle) they tend to be a bit more aggressive, whereas sheep will run in a flock, goats have no problem scattering like roaches on a dog, or turning and butting a dog. I've never had one get that aggressive with any livestock that was compliant. I guess that's where I'm a bit lost because at the time of the goats getting abused, they were compliant and moving away from him. I'd have no issue with it if the dog is showing he's the boss by biting livestock that isn't complying.
———— good point….perhaps he has been unconsciously conditioned to do this based on your past experiences with other dogs and other farm animals ??


Recall with distractions is a good point. It needs to be the animal distraction, 
——— (see above) not just a good point. a necessity. a recall of ANY kind HAS to be taught with distractions or you haven’t trained a recall and that’s why i disagree that it is solid. you don’t EVER teach a recall PROPERLY without distractions. because a recall is ONLY needed when there ARE distractions or it’s just a cute pet trick. a common misunderstanding by everyone who thinks they have taught one

That's where I think a long line comes into play because I can reel him back in if the recall fails.
——— short answer is NO, that is not how you teach a recall at all. it’s just one SMALL part of the long process that often requires more than one person to train it

He has had a behavioral change. My husband has been down in TX for the last month and the dog obviously misses him; not trying to anthropomorphize here but that's what it looks like. There's been other things, but they aren't worth mentioning since it's "pet problems" (i.e. house soiling and the dog has been well housetrained for the better part of a year, stuff like that). He is bonded to my husband more so than me, but my husband is still "in training" for working with the herding dog, he's a lab guy that likes to hunt with his dogs. When I say he's not a pet, he is allowed in the house in the evenings or if it's raining and such.
———— similar to probs i’ve had with Navy families where one is out of the picture, but glad you realize a bond is relevant here. but you haven’t said whether your def is the same as mine. i say this because i have heard a “bond” described MANY different ways. how do you define it ??

I work him until he's tired in the mornings (fetch, frisbee, tug), just to take the edge off. 
———— i disagree. that is NOT "working a dog", especially a WORKING dog. it’s simply allowing a dog to self satisfy and play with you. it’s NOT work at all for this kind of a dog.. truly WORKING him will require a lot more mental stimulation and should also include a higher level of seriousness. you could throw him on a treadmill at high speed for 30 min and that will make him crash, but it will do NOTHING about building the bond you need to build with him. when he gets his wind back he will have the SAME issues and the bond will not have been strengthened

they all have a job to do as well. 
————— fine …. agree ….so make him do his job and enjoy it in the process. that is WORKING HIM. his herding work can be broken down into many different drills that will make him start listening, and you can maintain control and safety at the same time. STOP accusing him of being brain dead and instead try and read him better and find out why he doesn’t respect what you say to him. meanwhile, you can and of course SHOULD lower the conflict level in these drills and build a foundation, not just rinse and repeat the same herding problem with a stronger long line, or Ecollar, or muzzle him. that will just condition a strong dog to power thru the nagging and hassling from you and get stronger

Genetics, this dog came to us at 5 weeks. ……..My ACO friend said she thinks there is 100+ dogs out there, all ACD’s.
———— tx for the background

Training: Basic OB, not with livestock around. Outside of being around them, dog knows all the basics, down, stay, plus others for directional control (left, right, etc) The last six months he's been working the livestock without the biting and brain-dead issues. I could call him off, direct, etc. My guess is the reward chasing after livestock is greater than the reward he gets for doing as he's told. 
————— this is getting to the heart of the problem
1. you’ve already confirmed that basic OB without livestock is USELESS in the real world. it’s no diff than begging b4 you serve him his meals, or sitting up for a cookie. OB IS ONLY USEFUL IF IT IS RELIABLE IN THE REAL WORLD. if it isn’t it taught there, you have probably completetd less than 50% of his obedience training requirements. ESPECIALLY FOR A WORKING DOG. why people fail to realize this has mystified me for decades. “OUT” should mean OUT whether it’s a drumstick, tug or goat leg he’s gripping !!!!!! if you only teach it with a tug, that is probably all he will out
2. why haven’t you started with ONE goat until he’s solid ? probably because you never considered a real training plan and instead just started “working him” //lol// i would consider that your fault as much as his for what he is doing now. more imagination and preplanning required here

He’s very food motivated, but the tennis ball and tug toy were the holy grail. I use them for positive reinforcement for good behavior (i.e. down-stay, release, immediate favorite toy).
———— you should also include physical praise from YOU. YOU need to be rewarding for him as much as the ball. another type of praise that has all but disappeared in this new age of ball driven training styles 

The LGD - LGD is a 6 month old pup. Lives with the goats. She's still learning what's what. Six months is too early to expect too much from her, other than barking at stuff that doesn't belong. She gets along fine with the ACD, they're pretty good buddies. She isn't bonded in with the newer goats yet, she's bonded up well with the bigger goats (full sized dairy goats) and is getting more used to the new ones. She spent a day away when I added to my herd because she growled and chased the new goats off (not her goats) but is now used to them. 
The LGD wasn't there with the goats when this transpired. I was actually taking her to the vet for her rabies vaccine and she was in my truck. I can't say how she'd react to that, since she wasn't there.
———— if it is a real LGD it WILL react and that is why i was curious to what extent it would. just being buddies is not the full picture if they are truly working dogs. he might just help you with your problem if he thinks your asshole is really trying to attack HIS goats. if you’re separating them that might not be the best option. i think they should be able to work together too. ofetn ,ther are behaviors that dogs can teach to other dogs better than people can !

Muzzling - just for work around the stock, not a permanent fixture outside of working with them. The thought on that is to ease off of using it as a crutch where he learns that biting the livestock is not acceptable. Basically, so he can't bite them while I get more focus out of him, and eventually take it off when he's a bit more trustworthy. 
———— i’ve already given you some very good reasons that took me over a decade to learn so you should already know i don’t consider them crutches at all. anyhow…...your dog, your tools, so i’m done throwing those bones out //LOL//

I think desensitizing him by taking him out with me when I feed (on a leash) and doing some basic OB around the critters might help.
———- good to see you are accepting that you might be a part of the problem, but you are mostly just stating a truism. you need to make a real PLAN with specific goals and targets. otherwise it tends to be like “working” him with frisbees and playing fetch and not really “work”. “desensitizing and counterconditing" are just feel good words that everyone agrees with. you need more imagination and planning and i think there are members here who would be glad to help you with both if you provide feedback. you express yourself well so that shouldn’t be hard. when i worked with dolphins we had three ring binders 3inches thick of short simple training drills. you don’t need that, and in the age of Iphones it’s WAY easier to plan your training

I mention the e-collar because I do have it, I have used it on other dogs, just for a reality check that "no means no right now, not when you feel like it" - mostly aversion. It's an option, but more of a last ditch effort. 
———— maybe u are now considering iot a last ditch effort, but that wan’t the way it came across to me the first time you listed it. but i agree there is a TON of things you can do if you actually make a plan to rebuild the foundation from teh ground up. and don’t expect overnight success unless you are a Mexican named Cesar //lol//

Rehoming him isn't an option, my husband loves the little ahole dearly. I rather like him too. It's either training, or he's not allowed around the livestock. I have debated getting a border collie, but I've had a couple of those growing up (my parents have about 8 or 9 dogs, a Catahoula, border collies, and 2 GSD's - personally love the Catahoula but she's older than dirt) and they are a bit too hyper for my taste. My first dog was an ACD and a great dog, very responsive, loyal, just all around the best dog I've ever had, but she's long gone, it'll be 15 years next week. 
————— don’t judge dogs based on your past dogs !!!!! make THIS dog the best u ever had because he will require you to work harder and you will have accomplished more and be more proud of him !!

I think I got most of it, I tried to answer everyone's questions and touch on some of the comments.
————— you got most of it. i don’t think you are really committed yet to making big changes, but hope that changes. we, at least for me, are only here to try and HELP and will spend a lot opf our personal time to do just that. i bust my ass for my customers and i expect them to reciprocate. i’ve had hundreds of clients who are still close long after we finished training


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

i still feel the way you are able to describe what's going on in words doesn't require a video from me to throw out some basic guidance. i appreciate you taking the time to do it. that's what's great about the 'net. 

but if you do decide to go with an Ecollar i would want to see you and the dog together : the good bad and the ugly, before i would sign off on Ecollar work. others obviously don't agree, but for me, it's too easy to abuse that tool and it seems like you have LOTS of other work you can do before you fall back on electric

and don't be discouraged that you and your husband don't have the same level of bonding. i've done enough work with families to know that will ALWAYS be true. yours can always be built up too !

keep on truckin and check back when you can


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## Ashley Clark (Sep 8, 2017)

It doesn't bother me that the dog is bonded to him, it's his dog. The LGD is "mine" ish, I wasn't planning on getting her but got her dropped in my lap. She likes me pretty well so there's that. 

Sorry I don't feel it's necessary to give a reason as to why I didn't come back for the better part of a day. This is a forum, not work, I don't "answer" to anyone, I am an adult with work to be done. That's just how it is.

I'm a bit lost on your post. You say no recall has been taught, except prior to this last incident, he had a solid recall. He's young, there's a backslide in there - this happens with horses as well and you start over re-training it, maybe lowering the conditions (i.e. a horse that bites the bit and runs with you, go back to a smaller area where they can't get up that kind of momentum and work on the stop, because they can't get up momentum, you have the better odds). 

So, let me clarify a bit. Basic OB without livestock. You train obedience before adding in distractions. Then add distractions, such as cars ( which he eyeballs but no longer chases) and livestock, etc. To me, it's a building up process. I don't see how you're going to just start in OB with the distractions and expect a positive outcome. You need some kind of foundation, which the dog has, and still presents, just not when he can go endlessly reward himself by chasing and chewing up my livestock.

This is more of a "why is my previously reliable dog suddenly backsliding so far, and has added in new unwanted behavior". Now how do I correct this? 

Now, explain to me why I would put a young 6 month old LGD out to learn bad behaviors from the ACD? Seems like that's adding fuel to a fire. She's young, and the bad habits that the ACD has developed are not something I want in her - especially considering her purpose will be to protect the livestock, not tear it up.

Typical dog forum, this is why I didn't go to a herding forum, especially since most of them are geared to herding trials, which I have zero interest in, and not real life application. Tear apart any verbiage you like without asking for clarification. I had so much to reply to, I'm sure I missed clarifying some things. Then having someone tell you that you aren't committed to changing it...right, I love vet bills from my goats being torn up, I have no motivation to change, that's not why I'm here at all.  If I didn't have any motivation to correct the issue, I wouldn't ask about it on a dog forum and come up with ideas on correcting it. Rick, you remind me very much of these horse "trainers" that sell DVD's. A lot of up buff on it, with the ending solution to all your problems are on my DVD, just $49.99+ SH

I think I'm done here.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

why i said this in my FIRST post :

"if you are willing to consider you may have caused a lot of the problems i would be glad to offer an alternative way to deal with the issues.
......from my perspective, "back to basics" is on point, but if all that means to you is more control measures i doubt it will solve the problem, so i won’t suggest any more at this point in time and would be wasting your time if i did."

instead you did exactly the opposite and restated that you just want some more control measures since your pup has recently decided to blow you off rather than consider some different perspectives

treat the symptoms or remove the cause by rebuilding your foundation...your call

- i gave many specifics that have helped well over a hundred clients, i don't sell dvds :twisted:

plus, you have put a few words in my mouth that were never there even after i specifically requested you cut/paste

TRULY sorry for wasting your time and mine. 
i won't post anymore if that will help but i stand by the advice i have given you


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

NOT for Ashley....please disregard

REread the thread
*really sorry......*a TOTAL misread on my part
i thought i took enuff time to understand where the OP was coming from and assumed she had a much more open mind

i rushed thru it because i really don't have that much time these days. bad idea

i'll focus on my studio work but if a thread gets going that is someone seeking help and it's a two way thread, don't be surprised if i jump in a day late and a dollar short :-|

hope she chills and comes back. the kind of thread that many on here can help with even if herding is not their expertise. if she was more concerned with herding techniques, "T" might have answered a call up from some of her buds //lol//


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Boy, did this take the 'left turn at Albuquerque' in a hurry.

Ashley, Some feel that in the age of instant information that a response is immediate. Some folks have the time to constantly look at info, others only do it on a periodic basis as their life allows. So take things with a grain of salt. Let some comments roll off our back. We are not at your farm. Some don't understand why the OP doesn't immediately drop everything and post a reply. I try to not get on the internet but once a day or so because it's a huge time sucker. Time I could spend doing something more productive. 

Anyway, No one is saying to get rid of your ACD. Thanks for the info on his background. I suspect the majority of the issues your encountering has to do with your husband being away. I know my dogs only respond to women (much to my Dad's eternal chagrin). 

Let Rick's attitude wash off a bit but he made some good points. I suspect your dog is acting out due to the absence of your husband, much like a toddler that's unhappy. I support a return to basics and spending some time with this dog much the way, I suspect, your husband did. He goes with you on rounds and trips for the farm chores. Treat him much like the way you would with a new puppy. Reestablish the basic ground work and OB drills. Don't go all yank and crank on him but praise when he is right and make him want to work with you, not against you. You know the dog knows this stuff so back to basics and treat him the way you did when he was young. Black and White, no Gray. Praise and a body rub for a correctly executed task. 

My nephew's 4-H project goats were much larger than yours. We had more problems with the sheep finding holes in the fencing than the goats did. Now the goats would climb on anything in the world but didn't spend much time angling to stage an escape. I would re-do this dog's foundation work on stock. I would begin with just a couple of head and practice with him on those few. If you have additional people there ( a responsible child can shake a grain bucket as well as an adult) then I would walk out with the dog while he is doing the gather. Reinforce the rules. The fact that the goats scatter and don't pack up the way that cows and sheep do can be causing some frustration on the dog's part as, genetically, what he is normally used on do clump up and not scatter to the wind.

No issues with the LGD being out that young as they are suppose to be introduced with the stock under their charge as soon as possible. The only thing is what may happen when you send the ACD to gather and the other takes it as a threat to the herd. You really need to be moving the goats with the LGD present so that both learn their respective responsibilities and the desired outcome. AKA: this particular dog (The ACD) is doing what he suppose to do but similar behaviors by a nonresident dog is unacceptable. Just being out there with the ACD tethered to you or on a long line will help establish this. 

I don't think your issues are unsolvable but will probably take a little effort on your part. Please check in from time to time and let me know how he's doing. Good Luck


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

> Long story short, they slipped by me at the gate and got out into the fenced pasture for the horses. Due to their small size, they can easily slip through the horse pasture and into the yard and road.


Does he grip them when in the pen?

Rick, stop scaring people off all the time will you ffs, this forum is dead already.

I had this problem with Sali with goats some of you may remember, she's a shithead too.
I also have a similar problem with Rosie, she gets very ramped up around the herding stock, where she didn't before.
I am currently sitting in a corner of the pen with a book making her down and remain calm and also making her heel into the pen and out of it. 

I'm gonna hassle Terrasita to come and read this thread I think.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

"I'm gonna hassle Terrasita to come and read this thread I think".


Best idea yet! 

Tell her I miss her!


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## Meg O'Donovan (Aug 20, 2012)

Matt Vandart said:


> Does he grip them when in the pen?
> 
> Rick, stop scaring people off all the time will you ffs, this forum is dead already.
> 
> ...


While you are enjoying your book, is there livestock in the same corral (pen) or none? Just curious. How old is Rosie now? Could this "overdrive" be attributed to hormones and bursts of stupid adolescent behavior (dog's)?
And I agree. Rick, stop hassling newcomers; I thought you were retiring to start a photography business or something?


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## Meg O'Donovan (Aug 20, 2012)

Sara Waters, who used to participate on this forum, had/has? working ACDs on a property in Australia. Message her through WorkingDogForum and see if she responds/can contribute based on her real-life experience.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

Meg....

for what it's worth, i don't "hassle" posters and no Matt, i did NOT scare the OP off. there was NO fear in that person.
you need to actually READ what i post and anything that you disagree with should be referenced by what i said that you didn't agree with.

i post straightforward and keep on topic.
the main problem is that too many people are not willing to accept that sometimes a different perspective is a GOOD thing , as well as accepting that THEY are also contributing to the issue they want fixed.

to give a quick suggestion without much detail is not always gonna solve a problem.

what cracks me up is that most of you rarely question other people's suggestions but LOVE to jump on my "attitude" rather than the actual suggestions that i POSTED 
- i was pleasantly surprised that Sarah, although she prefaced her remark by saying the OP should ignore my "attitude", actually agreed that some of my suggestions i posted might help the OP 

the use of "electric" in this thread is aother good example. not many agreed that was it was a good idea at this point in her training but few would disagree directly....because Khoi posted it 

Meg
re : "photography....or something".....another great example that you didn't really read what i posted feel the need to make a half assed reference to it :twisted:

there are MANY reasons why this forum has died out....I am not a major reason. lost of people PM me and agree with a LOT of what i post. they just choose to not do it publicly. that's their call

people who actually know me and work with me never have a problem with my "attitude" and MANY have said my attitude is a big reason they have actually learned things and enjoy my approach to teaching. 

bottom line : NOTHING on here will make me change the way i post. i post like i talk. always been a straight shooter and always will be


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

My photography studio is coming along nicely by the way. hard work but fun.....just like dogs

- i do mostly portrait photography. the key to being a good portrait shooter is making the customer relax and feel comfortable rather than "pose" them and dictate what you want. the photographer's attitude is VERY important

a lot of my customers have never sat for a studio session. if i was a snarky arrogant asshole i wouldn't be getting much business. and my dog experience has come in handy when shooting their pets with them


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## Misty Wegner (May 22, 2015)

Rick, I think because you type like you would speak, and text doesn't translate with intonation and facial expressions, people can take the straightforward approach as abrasive - even when it is not intentional.

As to the advice given, I think the vast majority of the time it is very good and spot on.. But as with all things in life, we have to be willing to look through the things that hit us wrong and still glean the good out of it..It is a lesson that serves us well in life..

I haven't done herding, however, I did have a GSD a few years back that was a herder through and through - but he bordered on the ACD side, being very tough and nippy... Unfortunately, I only had horses, and he was blinkin' fast. It did require a different bonding aspect with him, leashing him to me for a few weeks, an e- collar towards the end (he ignored the shocks in the beginning) of training, watching him and stopping thoughts before they became actions, and over time, keeping my spidey sense always present.

He got to about 98% trustworthy with horses, but I was always on guard and aware of his actions. If he 'disappeared' for a bit while I was giving a lesson or working a horse, I made sure I found him before daydreaming became a nightmare..

Probably not much information in this, but a shared experience of 'herders from hell.' Good luck OP I am sure this can be resolved


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

actually there were a lotta keepers in that thread. i really liked the idea of 'planting' in the pen with a book and the dog.

that is precisely what i was referring to about dealing with the issue at a low level of conflict and condition the pen action so it becomes part of the normal background rather than a stimulus. "correcting 'til compliance" may be required, but it's never my first choice.

it's actually applicable for dealing with a variety of issues beyond herding, and i always stay optimistic that there are still lurkers who are reading who can benefit regardless of how the OP accepts/rejects the suggestions posted.

my writing style has also been a product of something i learned from a VERY wise old Navy admiral (Chauncey Hoffman). he was a huge proponent of the "simple english" style of writing and the George Bernard Shaw philosophy  i've posted about this story before and how he had a huge impact on my life in so many positive ways.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Rick I havn't got a problem with your attitude, neither have I a problem with your advice mostly (on the forum not just this topic) the OP was the one that got pissed with you. It's not the first time you have made "demands" and accused people of "disapearing because they don't have the balls to deal with the problem" and pissed an OP off.
The forum is not dead because of you and no one is saying that, the forum is dead for its own reasons, i.e facebook.
Rubbing new posters up the wrong way will not help matters. 

Yes there are ducks in the pen.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TgU65DHVgJ0


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Thanks Matt! Having spent the most of my life with terriers/terrier mixes and GSDs/GSD mixes I've actually though a lot about the ACD simply because they have the attitude of both GSD and terrier.

Strong protective instincts with the fire and intensity of the terriers.

Neither breed belongs in the hands of a green dog person without a ton of support and guidance from a experienced and responsible trainer.


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Seems the OP was serious when she said she was done here. Ya gotta love a person who is serious. Just don't take her lightly if she threatens suicide. Seen thousands who threaten it but only a handful who do it.


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## Ashley Clark (Sep 8, 2017)

Alright, just got a chance to really come back and read through this. Again, busy farm, and it won't stop f'ing raining here, so it's a swamp, and well...problems associated with your property being under water. It's just me here the last month, since DH is away at a military school in TX. Spare time is a luxury, but I got enough of a break in the rain today to knock out the disasters.

I like the sit in the pen idea, I'm not adverse to giving that a try. I'm not going to say it'll work, because I do have some goats that think I'm awesome and have to get all up in my business, which might be a bit close to the dog. 

To answer someones question, yes he bit in the pen. Basically "herded" them in and when they ran in, ran after them in the pen and that's when the little nanny got bit. Luckily, small enough area I could snatch him up off her. Not the case when they are out of the penned area, since they have acres to run, and there's no way I can keep up. It's a tough cause to convince them the bucket of food you have is better than green pasture.

I have been taking him out to feed with me. The goat pen isn't something he can get in to with the gate closed, so it's been off-leash. No problems, stays right with me, doesn't give them a second glance. He's listening just like he should be, so outside of doing his job, he's fine. 

I think there was some miscommunication here. The dog does not get to work them daily, as they are currently penned. We have coyote problems and all 4 are coming up on kidding (babies). One within the month. The LGD isn't a reliable protector yet (nor would I expect her to be as young as she is) and I can't afford to lose babies to predators. Once the LGD is reliable, then we can do turn out and collect them in at the end of the day. Honestly, I don't need help with that since even the new ones are coming to the "Holy Bucket" of feed easily. They needed more time to warm up, but can't have them running loose on the road either. We are working on more fencing to keep them in for pasturing, and he'll probably get to work more when that time comes. 

Also, the one who mentioned a child in the family with 4H goats, I have some that size as well, 150 or so lbs dairy goats. The big ones are notorious for squeezing through the fence and climbing over the gate, they also can spring over shorter fences like deer. Agile creatures. 

On the other topic, Rick may have had some good ideas. Would be nice if they weren't covered completely in BS. 
You talk about military (assuming Navy) so you know the acronym KISS. No need to be verbose if you want to be "straight to the point." Not everyone has the time to try to pick out the potentially useful information out of a diatribe of "it's your fault". Thank you for the newsflash, I had no idea that something in my training was lacking before you mentioned it approximately 4 times. =D>

DH is due home sometime tonight from his military school. We'll see if there's a behavior shift when he gets home. I'm not so sure it was a trigger for him to be a little asshole, because DH is gone frequently due to work, so it isn't uncommon for him to be gone for a month or longer at a time. I guess time will tell.


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## Gina Mezin (Mar 8, 2016)

Like the video Matt! Loving my ACD/BC. Much more fiery than the first one I owned as a kid. She has a lot of control over how she bites. She would rather give a quick bite on the tug and run off for me to throw it, but learned very fast to do a full and longer bite. She gets a little more bored with repitituon than the Mal and is somewhat pig headed when she thinks I'm asking her to do something she can't understand immediately. I have to be a little more creative. She loves to play or eat anything though and is crazy physical bouncing of of anything in her way.


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

BaaaHaaaaHaaaa! Great Post, Ashley! You sure hit that nail on the head.

We had good luck with running some electric wire to create escape proof fencing. We have a good charger that has a very respectable shock on it. They hit it once and won't hit it again. Cheap to install and might help deter the Yotes.

Matt's video was extremely educational.


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