# studs that produce thick nerves?



## Michael Murphy (Nov 27, 2010)

knpv ( can throw in nvbk) malinois and dutch shepherd studs KNOWN FOR producing THICK nerves.
on a recent forum herd some dogs producing softer nerved dogs, also would'nt say my Jary berghorst daughter has very thick nerves, i would say average ( although she is still young.)
but i want to know where breeders go for thick nerves?
(not just dogs with good nerves in drive, but when not in drive)


----------



## Kevin Cyr (Dec 28, 2012)

Michael Murphy said:


> knpv ( can throw in nvbk) malinois and dutch shepherd studs KNOWN FOR producing THICK nerves.
> on a recent forum herd some dogs producing softer nerved dogs, also would'nt say my Jary berghorst daughter has very thick nerves, i would say average ( although she is still young.)
> but i want to know where breeders go for thick nerves?
> (not just dogs with good nerves in drive, but when not in drive)


A pups upbringing can make it nervy with some people or diminish some


----------



## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

Michael Murphy said:


> knpv ( can throw in nvbk) malinois and dutch shepherd studs KNOWN FOR producing THICK nerves.
> on a recent forum herd some dogs producing softer nerved dogs, also would'nt say my Jary berghorst daughter has very thick nerves, i would say average ( although she is still young.)
> but i want to know where breeders go for thick nerves?
> (not just dogs with good nerves in drive, but when not in drive)



What makes you say your pup doesnt have very thick nerves?


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Michael Murphy said:


> knpv ( can throw in nvbk) malinois and dutch shepherd studs KNOWN FOR producing THICK nerves.
> on a recent forum herd some dogs producing softer nerved dogs, also would'nt say my Jary berghorst daughter has very thick nerves, i would say average ( although she is still young.)
> but i want to know where breeders go for thick nerves?
> (not just dogs with good nerves in drive, but when not in drive)


thick nerves, soft? 
Biologically?
how are you measuring how thick or how soft they are?

what is more important the thickness or how hard they are? LOL


----------



## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Michael Murphy said:


> on a recent forum herd some dogs producing softer nerved dogs, also would'nt say my Jary berghorst daughter has very thick nerves, i would say average ( although she is still young.)
> 
> 
> (not just dogs with good nerves in drive, but when not in drive)


How are you making the determination on nerves with your bitch?

And how are you making a determination of strong nerves either in drive (and what drive would that be?) or out of drive?


----------



## Michael Murphy (Nov 27, 2010)

my bitch is young, she can just be a bit "sensitive" hard to explain, it could be that she is a female, i have only had male dogs which seem to be a bit more masculine

anyways, back to the studs discussion, thick nerves towards man and environmentally, the czech video shows some week nerved dogs when they get surprised , i know all you people on this forum know what im talking about :-x


----------



## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Michael Murphy said:


> my bitch is young, she can just be a bit "sensitive" hard to explain, it could be that she is a female, i have only had male dogs which seem to be a bit more masculine
> 
> anyways, back to the studs discussion, thick nerves towards man and environmentally, the czech video shows some week nerved dogs when they get surprised , i know all you people on this forum know what im talking about :-x


Explain what you mean by "sensitive". "Sensitive" to what? "Sensitive" in what situations?

I would also not catagorize a reaction in a surprising situation as "weak nerved". I've know plenty of dogs (and humans) that react evasively in a new and surprising situation but walk them through it and they don't react that way again. So give an example of what you classify as "thick" nerves and your expectations under what situations.


----------



## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Michael Murphy said:


> my bitch is young, she can just be a bit "sensitive" hard to explain,* it could be that she is a female, I have only had male dogs which seem to be a bit more masculine
> *
> anyways, back to the studs discussion, thick nerves towards man and environmentally, the czech video shows some week nerved dogs when they get surprised , i know all you people on this forum know what im talking about :-x


Explain this horseshit please.

You looking for a stupid dog?

Get an EBT, you will like one of those, it's hard to **** up EBT's they are what I think you are referring to as 'thick nerved' but then again they are not stupid


----------



## Kevin Cyr (Dec 28, 2012)

Michael Murphy said:


> my bitch is young, she can just be a bit "sensitive" hard to explain, it could be that she is a female, i have only had male dogs which seem to be a bit more masculine
> 
> anyways, back to the studs discussion, thick nerves towards man and environmentally, the czech video shows some week nerved dogs when they get surprised , i know all you people on this forum know what im talking about :-x



She would probably be a better dog raised by someone else...


----------



## Michael Murphy (Nov 27, 2010)

Matt Vandart said:


> Explain this horseshit please.
> 
> You looking for a stupid dog?
> 
> Get an EBT, you will like one of those, it's hard to **** up EBT's they are what I think you are referring to as 'thick nerved' but then again they are not stupid


mate your an idiot


----------



## Kevin Cyr (Dec 28, 2012)

Sarah Platts said:


> How are you making the determination on nerves with your bitch?
> 
> And how are you making a determination of strong nerves either in drive (and what drive would that be?) or out of drive?


Most dogs are tested in terms of drive, what they have or dont have.....but IMO that is the failure of most....what a dog will or wont do out of drive will tell its true character. In drive of course he will do it if he does it out of drive.

Ex: dog wont climb stairs on its own, hesitant....now throw a bite wurst or ball and hes up no problem

Well when working i cant have the dog in drive all the time to get it from point A to point B and get to where we are going and dog is gassed and cant work


----------



## Michael Murphy (Nov 27, 2010)

Kevin Cyr said:


> She would probably be a better dog raised by someone else...


i agree.


----------



## David Ruby (Jul 21, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> what is more important the thickness or how hard they are? LOL


Joby, always taking conversations to new, unintended, and usually much more interesting places. 

-Cheers


----------



## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Kevin Cyr said:


> Most dogs are tested in terms of drive, what they have or dont have.....but IMO that is the failure of most....what a dog will or wont do out of drive will tell its true character. In drive of course he will do it if he does it out of drive.
> 
> Ex: dog wont climb stairs on its own, hesitant....now throw a bite wurst or ball and hes up no problem
> 
> Well when working i cant have the dog in drive all the time to get it from point A to point B and get to where we are going and dog is gassed and cant work


I know this is how YOU would classify it but the problem is not you but Michael. He's never been able to explain what HIS criteria is. He uses everyone else's examples but can't define it for himself in terms of his likes and dislikes. When someone can't do that then they don't know exactly what it is they want. When they don't know what they want, then it's a hot mess because they plow off in every direction, constantly changing, and not being consistant because they don't know how because they don't know what they want. As a result they screw up their dog, blame the dog, the breeding, the bloodlines, the kennel, the club, the helper, etc. They blame the forest for the trees and can't seem to look in the mirror and see the problem.


----------



## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Michael Murphy said:


> i have only had male dogs which seem to be a bit more masculine


In what way?


----------



## Kevin Cyr (Dec 28, 2012)

Gillian Schuler said:


> In what way?


Two testicles usually


----------



## Kevin Cyr (Dec 28, 2012)

Michael Murphy said:


> my bitch is young, she can just be a bit "sensitive" hard to explain, it could be that she is a female, i have only had male dogs which seem to be a bit more masculine
> 
> anyways, back to the studs discussion, thick nerves towards man and environmentally, the czech video shows some week nerved dogs when they get surprised , i know all you people on this forum know what im talking about :-x


I almost never know what the hell you're talking about


----------



## Catherine Gervin (Mar 12, 2012)

Matt Vandart;594634
Get an EBT said:


> this is good solid advice, because Bull Terriers are just fun tough dogs and i don't think you can easily sway them from being assuch, pretty hard to screw up...also, the ones i've met suffer idiots really well!


----------



## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

"Thick"

Let me think up a way to abuse this word in relation to the poster and or his question....

Nahhhh. Just to damn easy. [-(


----------



## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Michael Murphy said:


> mate your an idiot


I'm an idiot? From this statement?

Males are more masculine? WTF else are they going to be, camp? A homoerotic cabaret? lol, get that chip off your shoulder sons, I'm only ever trying to help.

Seriously get an EBT you will like it, preferably a male, a male with a big head and nerves as thick as a sequoia, excellent dogs, good dogs to learn how to train dogs. Why you think they put bull terrier into knpv malis and dutchies?


----------



## Haz Othman (Mar 25, 2013)

A puppy being somewhat reactive especially considering all the civil high drive dogs in the bloodline doesnt mean too much from my perspective.


----------



## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Alice Bezemer said:


> "Thick"
> 
> Let me think up a way to abuse this word in relation to the poster and or his question....
> 
> Nahhhh. Just to damn easy. [-(


please proceed :twisted:


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Alice Bezemer said:


> "Thick"
> 
> Let me think up a way to abuse this word in relation to the poster and or his question....
> 
> Nahhhh. Just to damn easy. [-(




That one word pretty much covers it huh! :wink:


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

I'm with Brian. Let it rip, Alice. I'm curious as to what nerve has to do with masculinity and how quality of nerve is dictated by sex but Alice might be on to something there.

T


----------



## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> I'm with Brian. Let it rip, Alice. I'm curious as to what nerve has to do with masculinity and how quality of nerve is dictated by sex but Alice might be on to something there.
> 
> T


It doesn't have anything to do with masculinity at all but thats another thing Michael will never understand. Females are prown to become whiny, its what they do at times, specialy when they go into heat. A female can be just as good if not better then a male but they come with a manual at times and that needs getting used to. They are often more level headed then a male but the only thing that keeps them back from what they actually are is the label of being female. 

Thick nerves..... What a concept :lol:

A dog is what it is due to the environment that it grows up with, it can be a nervefree pup growing up with the wrong handler and therefor turning into a nervebag, it can be a nervy lil fker that with the right upbringing can become a levelheaded and sober dog.

Michael needs to get of this stupid idea that genetics accounts for every damn thing in a dog. Genetics is a smidgen of the dogs make up, what the handler does after it leaves the litter will dictate the outcome in adulthood and no amount of genetics can save a dog from being raised by a **** up.


----------



## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Its believed you can have to thick of nerve. Dogs become very hard to stimulate in defence just don't see a lot as a threat.Thoughts?


----------



## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

brad robert said:


> Its believed you can have to thick of nerve. Dogs become very hard to stimulate in defence just don't see a lot as a threat.Thoughts?


That was what I was referring to as a stupid dog.
(Before I get jumped on, this comment along with the other reference to 'stupid dog' is tongue in cheek comment, although I have met some truly stupid dogs, mostly male dobermans)


----------



## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

i don't get the whole concept of thick or thin nerves so i can't comment on the topic 
-- but regarding this question :
"Its believed you can have to thick of nerve. Dogs become very hard to stimulate in defence just don't see a lot as a threat.Thoughts?"

assuming that :
1. you have a dog who likes to bite and fight
2. you are training for protection (controlled aggression; not protection related competition sports) 
describing a dog as being hard to "stimulate in defense" doesn't seem like that is describing a problem. sounds more like a very confident dog, which is what i would like

can you give real world examples of when this is a problem ?

of course this goes back to the "drive" definitions ....prey, play, fight, defense, etc etc
- but personally i would just want a dog who will engage when told and never perceive anything as a threat


----------



## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Alice Bezemer said:


> Michael needs to get [rid] of this stupid idea that genetics accounts for every damn thing in a dog. .......and no amount of genetics can save a dog from being raised by a .....


+2


----------



## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

Alice Bezemer said:


> Michael needs to get of this stupid idea that genetics accounts for every damn thing in a dog. Genetics is a smidgen of the dogs make up, what the handler does after it leaves the litter will dictate the outcome in adulthood and no amount of genetics can save a dog from being raised by a **** up.


Doesnt he supposedly have a dutchie pup from solid lines? 

Sometimes I wish I was closer to take a look at his GSD...but sometimes, I am glad not to be! LOL


----------



## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Tiago Fontes said:


> Doesnt he supposedly have a dutchie pup from solid lines?
> 
> Sometimes I wish I was closer to take a look at his GSD...but sometimes, I am glad not to be! LOL


he did get a pup:

picking up my pup from the airport in 2 hours dieing from excitement. can't wait to see her, never had a female before.* she better have some drive* [-o< 

Bloodlines;

BRN 16363

BRN 6004

The highlighting is mine but knew when I saw that phrase that Mic was already setting himself up for disappointment and I made a bet with myself that this female was going to go the way of his GSD.


----------



## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Welcome to the produce of 

BRN 16363

BRN 6004

I do hope that BRN...... will fulfull your expectations :grin:


----------



## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

So how many times have you taken her out to the IPO club?
The only advice to you Michael is you will never learn about character, drives, nerves etc unless you work your dogs, build them up and see how they mature. Its kinda like going onto MMA forums and asking about this and that, but unless you get into the cage yourself you will never learn anything or truely understand whats what.


----------



## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Gillian Schuler said:


> Welcome to the produce of
> 
> BRN 16363
> 
> ...


this is the orginal thread. He was given lots of good info

http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f30/finally-getting-my-knpv-pup-33794/

But it seems like he's on the hunt again for a new dog. One more "thick". Whatever that means. I suggest the next one should a Pet Rock (egads, I couldn't help myself)..... or a gerbil.


----------



## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Christopher Jones said:


> So how many times have you taken her out to the IPO club?
> The only advice to you Michael is you will never learn about character, drives, nerves etc unless you work your dogs, build them up and see how they mature. Its kinda like going onto MMA forums and asking about this and that, but unless you get into the cage yourself you will never learn anything or truely understand whats what.


I agree .. I have had many many epic fails and I am sure more to come. BUT that is how we learn! Unless we are lucky and have some folks around who dont mind sharing tidbits ... and are willing to learn


----------



## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Kevin Cyr said:


> I almost never know what the hell you're talking about


I had to re read it a few times but get the jist of it. We have all seen females that appear outwardly to be male like in their build, character or whatever. I think that his masculine point. Or I could be wrong too lol


----------



## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

Christopher Jones said:


> So how many times have you taken her out to the IPO club?
> The only advice to you Michael is you will never learn about character, drives, nerves etc unless you work your dogs, build them up and see how they mature. Its kinda like going onto MMA forums and asking about this and that, but unless you get into the cage yourself you will never learn anything or truely understand whats what.


This is very wise advice. I hope he follows it...

Michael Murphy, I really thought you would work your dog more and type less.


----------



## Michael Murphy (Nov 27, 2010)

Christopher Jones said:


> So how many times have you taken her out to the IPO club?
> The only advice to you Michael is you will never learn about character, drives, nerves etc unless you work your dogs, build them up and see how they mature. Its kinda like going onto MMA forums and asking about this and that, but unless you get into the cage yourself you will never learn anything or truely understand whats what.


mate i like her a lot, i have some personal stuff going on so have not been able to take her. her drive is excellent, does not take a lot to trigger her into biting everything that moves (including myself). i said her nerves are good but i would not say she was absolutely unshakeable , and i did say she was very young so probably not right to make an assessment at all on her nerves. "sensitive" was probably the wrong choice of words, more passive towards myself but again she is just a pup.

the main point of the thread was studs that breeders would look for to strengthen the nerves in there breedings, the question came to mind cause on another thread some people where disappointed in the nerve strength in there van leeuwen line pups, which i assumed was a line known for thick nerves if anything. i also herd from some people that arko could produce weaker nerves, not always but enough to be noticed.

so now im curious, which lines produce the most solid nerves consistently in a litter, django (down from duco), berry 2, etc, ( those are the two most bred lines at the moment.)


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

what do you mean by "nerves" exactly?


----------



## Kevin Cyr (Dec 28, 2012)

Michael Murphy said:


> mate i like her a lot, i have some personal stuff going on so have not been able to take her. her drive is excellent, does not take a lot to trigger her into biting everything that moves (including myself). i said her nerves are good but i would not say she was absolutely unshakeable , and i did say she was very young so probably not right to make an assessment at all on her nerves. "sensitive" was probably the wrong choice of words, more passive towards myself but again she is just a pup.
> 
> the main point of the thread was studs that breeders would look for to strengthen the nerves in there breedings, the question came to mind cause on another thread some people where disappointed in the nerve strength in there van leeuwen line pups, which i assumed was a line known for thick nerves if anything. i also herd from some people that arko could produce weaker nerves, not always but enough to be noticed.
> 
> so now im curious, which lines produce the most solid nerves consistently in a litter, django (down from duco), berry 2, etc, ( those are the two most bred lines at the moment.)



Its ur raising or lack of; not the dog or lines............


----------



## Michael Murphy (Nov 27, 2010)

Kevin Cyr said:


> Its ur raising or lack of; not the dog or lines............



Originally Posted by Michael Murphy View Post
what was wrong with them, drive? nerves? aggression?
"All I will say is I expected alot more and it may of been based on other things. In a range of 12 to 15 dogs of that line, they were very much the same. They all lacked hunt to do basic odor work but had decent retrieve. Not clear headed and were very reactive. Nervy for some Im sure. They would bite, but nothing special by any means. They also couldnt put two things together when training got tougher or added pieces. For example they understood bite decoy....they understood building search....they understood gunfire....they understood pressure.......BUT put two of these things together or add an envioremental piece "outside of drive" and crumbled.

This was various trainers with different styles as well as myself young and adult.

Just my experiences"

^ is the above not what you posted recently. i thought line does not matter and it is all in the raising?


----------



## Lindsay Janes (Aug 9, 2007)

What is "thick nerves?" Wouldn't you mind to clarify it?


----------



## Michael Murphy (Nov 27, 2010)

Why are you discussing the lines of the dog as a important variable in that thread hay? what you suddenly develop alzheimers on my thread


----------



## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Michael, do you get why people are stressing working with your dog, getting your dog to your club? And why they have been for a VERY LONG time?

And why the comments about "working with your dog more and typing less" pop up?

This advice is the advice you (and your dog) need.


----------



## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Michael Murphy said:


> Why are you discussing the lines of the dog as a important variable in that thread hay? what you suddenly develop alzheimers on my thread


I swear to the sweet and almighty whatever that you need to be knocked around a bit until you develop some common damn sense! As for the Alzheimers? That would probably be you since YOU never reply to a damn question asked of you but that is most probably due to lack of your common sense...

Why don't you simply shut up, read and listen, work your damn dog as you were told a gazillion times already, reply to the questions that were asked and pipe the hell down a bit before mouthing of at people who have a shitload more common sense in their little toe then you will ever have in your entire frikkin body!

My god, you piss me off kid.... People on this forum bend over bloody backwards to try and help you out and all you do is sit there stroking off like a damn know it all. Get your head out of your ass, use whatever you have up there in that noggin of yours and use it to learn something instead of being a snotty punk and maybe people will take you seriously and be more open to helping you out when you have a question or need help. And improve your BLOODY GRAMMAR AND SPELLING!

Their (person) /There (over fking THERE)

and HAY is for bleedin horses you doofus!


----------



## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

A small interlude before returning to our regular programming... :lol:



wiggle wiggle wiggle 

http://youtu.be/hiP14ED28CA

andddd back to topic


----------



## Kevin Cyr (Dec 28, 2012)

Michael Murphy said:


> Originally Posted by Michael Murphy View Post
> what was wrong with them, drive? nerves? aggression?
> "All I will say is I expected alot more and it may of been based on other things. In a range of 12 to 15 dogs of that line, they were very much the same. They all lacked hunt to do basic odor work but had decent retrieve. Not clear headed and were very reactive. Nervy for some Im sure. They would bite, but nothing special by any means. They also couldnt put two things together when training got tougher or added pieces. For example they understood bite decoy....they understood building search....they understood gunfire....they understood pressure.......BUT put two of these things together or add an envioremental piece "outside of drive" and crumbled.
> 
> ...


Just as in everything you do you dont read carefully, you only read what you want.....multiple of dogs various trainers and styles.....lack of hunt for example is there or its not, you can improve some but it has it or not...
I dont even know why I replied to an idiot who doesnt listen


----------



## Haz Othman (Mar 25, 2013)

If you dont know what your doing with foundation bitework, you can screw up the pups grips majorly through improper work and to much to fast. This can also affect striking etc. Trust me..I know. You need to get out to the club.


----------



## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Michael Murphy said:


> mate i like her a lot, i have some personal stuff going on so have not been able to take her.


Hmmm, isn't this the same thing you said about why you weren't taking your GSD to a club? I think that time you said school was interferring with your ability to get to some real on-scene assistance. I think everyone here has personal stuff going on. I think the difference is some let it stop them..... and some don't. 

She's got to be a rising 8-9 months old puppy and while young you should have some good foundation work on her. All you seem to care about is her biting and the ability to stay into a fight. How's her tracking going? How about shooting some vid? How about some updated pics of the two of you? How's her OB? How about a vid of that work?


----------



## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Alice Bezemer said:


> A small interlude before returning to our regular programming... :lol:
> 
> MORE MORE MORE!! (you just do it so good )
> 
> ...


----------



## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

alice bezemer said:


> a small interlude before returning to our regular programming... :lol:
> 
> More more more!! (you just do it so good )
> 
> ...


more more


----------



## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Michael I would not say that Arko was known for weak nerves, infact nerves is something i think he added. But i would also say that not every pup is a clone or as good as the top ones. There will always be pups in a litter who arent high level. If you breed Arko (or any good stud dog) to a shit nerved female there will most likely be some nervy pups. Look at the breedings Van Hoek did with Arko. These were absolutely amazing combos. Dogs like my Boy, Drews Boy etc. This is because Gerard v Hoek is a top of the food chain breeder. He had strong bitches from a line he liked that produced consistantly and bred it to a super strong dog in Arko and ill be stuffed if they werent good dogs.


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

must ve missed it where someone said Arko throws weak nerves.

I did not see many offspring but I didnt notice any nerve issues. 

let us not forget that there is also the other half of the equation which may have even a bigger influence on some of the things that people may attribute to "nerves"

the female that produced the eggs, and who reared the puppies.....


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Michael
The comment about "the breeding was done to strengthen the nerves" is a bit scary to me. 
Weak nerves, thin nerves, whatever you want to call it is a big issue for me. 
If I see one nervy pup, sire or dam when I look at a litter I walk away.


----------



## David Winners (Apr 4, 2012)

LOL... personal stuff going on...

I just moved back from Korea, moved the family to Oklahoma, lived in a hotel for over a week finding a house, started a new job... Still worked the dogs everyday. In fact, I work the dogs instead of reading the forums. I get up an hour early to get some training and grooming in in the morning, so I guess I work dogs instead of sleep.

Wanna-be owners piss me off. They always have an excuse. You seem to like the idea of training dogs far more than the reality of it. It's not uncommon.


----------



## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

david winners said:


> lol... Personal stuff going on...
> 
> I just moved back from korea, moved the family to oklahoma, lived in a hotel for over a week finding a house, started a new job... Still worked the dogs everyday. In fact, i work the dogs instead of reading the forums. I get up an hour early to get some training and grooming in in the morning, so i guess i work dogs instead of sleep.
> 
> Wanna-be owners piss me off. They always have an excuse. You seem to like the idea of training dogs far more than the reality of it. It's not uncommon.



bingo.


----------



## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Christopher Jones said:


> Michael I would not say that Arko was known for weak nerves, infact nerves is something i think he added. But i would also say that not every pup is a clone or as good as the top ones. There will always be pups in a litter who arent high level. If you breed Arko (or any good stud dog) to a shit nerved female there will most likely be some nervy pups. Look at the breedings Van Hoek did with Arko. These were absolutely amazing combos. Dogs like my Boy, Drews Boy etc. This is because Gerard v Hoek is a top of the food chain breeder. He had strong bitches from a line he liked that produced consistantly and bred it to a super strong dog in Arko and ill be stuffed if they werent good dogs.


I have an Arko son here and anyones welcome to check his nerve.... just have yours ready when that happens :twisted:


----------



## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Brian Anderson said:


> I have an Arko son here and anyones welcome to check his nerve.... just have yours ready when that happens :twisted:



Make a video of him walking down a busy street and I can see all I need to see about his nerves.


----------



## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Christopher Smith said:


> Make a video of him walking down a busy street and I can see all I need to see about his nerves.


^^ I like this ^^


----------



## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Christopher Smith said:


> Make a video of him walking down a busy street and I can see all I need to see about his nerves.


I will have him out this weekend Chris .. not sure how many busy streets I will be around but I will try to do that. I will look on my other computer but I have a video of him riding the shopping cart train at Sams ... hes an idiot of the highest order LOL


----------



## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

David Winners said:


> LOL... personal stuff going on...
> 
> I just moved back from Korea, moved the family to Oklahoma, lived in a hotel for over a week finding a house, started a new job... Still worked the dogs everyday. In fact, I work the dogs instead of reading the forums. I get up an hour early to get some training and grooming in in the morning, so I guess I work dogs instead of sleep.
> 
> Wanna-be owners piss me off. They always have an excuse. You seem to like the idea of training dogs far more than the reality of it. It's not uncommon.


Korea to Oklahoma ... can we say CULTURE SHOCK lol


----------



## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Brian Anderson said:


> I will have him out this weekend Chris .. not sure how many busy streets I will be around but I will try to do that. I will look on my other computer but I have a video of him riding the shopping cart train at Sams ... hes an idiot of the highest order LOL


Man you gotta get that vid up!


----------



## Catherine Gervin (Mar 12, 2012)

somebody make sure this guy never has children!


----------



## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Catherine Gervin said:


> somebody make sure this guy never has children!


I think that's why he's got dogs.....

But it got me to thinking of him as a dog training exercise. When a dog is starved for attention, any attention - even negative attention - is still attention. The negative feedback is still feedback and thus encourages the stupidity to continue.


----------



## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Sarah Platts said:


> I think that's why he's got dogs.....
> 
> But it got me to thinking of him as a dog training exercise. When a dog is starved for attention, any attention - even negative attention - is still attention. The negative feedback is still feedback and thus encourages the stupidity to continue.


amazing how similiar humans and dogs behavior really is... the more we know about dogs and their behavior ... the more we understand about our own


----------



## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

Matt Vandart said:


> Man you gotta get that vid up!


I'm also curious about it!


----------



## Doug Zaga (Mar 28, 2010)

Alice Bezemer said:


> I swear to the sweet and almighty whatever that you need to be knocked around a bit until you develop some common damn sense! As for the Alzheimers? That would probably be you since YOU never reply to a damn question asked of you but that is most probably due to lack of your common sense...
> 
> Why don't you simply shut up, read and listen, work your damn dog as you were told a gazillion times already, reply to the questions that were asked and pipe the hell down a bit before mouthing of at people who have a shitload more common sense in their little toe then you will ever have in your entire frikkin body!
> 
> ...


X10 Alice. And of course he runs away again without answering the questions! :-({|=


----------



## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Doug Zaga said:


> X10 Alice. And of course he runs away again without answering the questions! :-({|=


I was hopin for the knockin around myself LOL


----------



## Derek Milliken (Apr 19, 2009)

Personal stuff?
I'm not going through any more than anyone else is. 
But my decoy, he's getting married next week, he's buying a house in 2 weeks, his fiancé is graduating before the end of this month, and the house they're buying is a fixer-upper, so they're bringing in contractors for quotes before they even own the place. 
He texts me this morning, says he'll be about an hour late to training cause there are suit fittings for the wedding. 
Guess what, 1 hour and 3 minutes late. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Michael Murphy said:


> mate i like her a lot, i have some personal stuff going on so have not been able to take her. her drive is excellent, does not take a lot to trigger her into biting everything that moves (including myself). i said her nerves are good but i would not say she was absolutely unshakeable , and i did say she was very young so probably not right to make an assessment at all on her nerves. "sensitive" was probably the wrong choice of words, more passive towards myself but again she is just a pup.
> 
> the main point of the thread was studs that breeders would look for to strengthen the nerves in there breedings, the question came to mind cause on another thread some people where disappointed in the nerve strength in there van leeuwen line pups, which i assumed was a line known for thick nerves if anything. i also herd from some people that arko could produce weaker nerves, not always but enough to be noticed.
> 
> so now im curious, which lines produce the most solid nerves consistently in a litter, django (down from duco), berry 2, etc, ( those are the two most bred lines at the moment.)


Personal stuff? You dare and sit there saying you have personal stuff? My god kid.. What is this infamous personal stuff you speak of? Ran out of tissues and lotion? The really sad thing of this all is that you own yet another dog that will get "Fubared" and the dog will be blamed for it as you are already showing in your posts. 

You should grow the hell up and take some responsibility for your actions in stead of sitting on a forum... You do not have time to sit on any ****ing forums and ask idiot questions... You have personal stuff going on, remember? 

You got a nice pup from a good breeder and what did you do? Sweet **** ALL! You are a player, Michael.... You are not a dog person... You are not a dog trainer... You are a wannabe boastfull kid who doesn't seem to care about dogs but about the reputation that goes allong with the training of working dogs.... You want to pound on your chest and get attention when you boast about your mean and vicious dog from thick nerved bloodlines that that are made of concrete and adamantium. You want people to talk about you and your fierce dogs and guess what? You have succeeded in that one wish. You are being talked about... not for the great trainer you are or the excellent things you do with your dogs but the sad specimen that you have become and the fact that you will never EVER get the working dog world and or its dogs. 

Quit the excuses! Personal stuff? Everyone on this forum has personal stuff to deal with and guess what? They still manage to deal with their dogs, work them, train them, treat them right...

Its something that is to expected when you live and breathe... life gets in the way while you make other plans and you deal with it. Its called being an adult, Michael.

Hell! After more then 40 surgeries I am still here and on the field making an effort to still work the dogs I own and helping out others and I still have quite the number of surgeries in my future to look forward to, life is going to suck much more for me as I grow older but that sure as **** isn't going to stop me. I'm not going to walk away from my responsibilities and let things slide, I am going to work with what I have and make the very best of it. You think you have personal stuff? My husband just got fired from his job of 27 years due to the company going bankrupt, no advance warning or signs, just a simple "grab your shit and be of the company grounds before the curators take over, btw your not getting paid or backpaid for the last few months that you worked." Trust me, thats personal stuff at its ****ing best and life is really REALLY hard right now but we manage it the best we can and deal with it and STILL OWN UP TO OUR RESPONSIBILITIES. How about you start doing the ****ing same kid.... No more bloody excuses, no more BS questions, no more running from answering questions and for ****s sake, be honest for a change.


----------



## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

Alice Bezemer said:


> You think you have personal stuff? My husband just got fired from his job of 27 years due to the company going bankrupt, no advance warning or signs, just a simple "grab your shit and be of the company grounds before the curators take over, btw your not getting paid or backpaid for the last few months that you worked." Trust me, thats personal stuff at its ****ing best and life is really REALLY hard right now but we manage it the best we can and deal with it and STILL OWN UP TO OUR RESPONSIBILITIES.


I'm sorry to hear this. That really sucks... 

Speaking about "personal stuff" going on, although it is not a personal occurance, due to my job, I have a client going through a divorce who's soon to be ex-wife has already set his house on fire, vandalized his cars and a few other things. Plus I am working on trying to save some companies who are full of debt and almost closing doors, plus some criminal and some tax fraud cases... I get home at night and work comes with me. 

Guess what I do to relax at 10 pm? Call my buddies and arrange a training session. 

Easier to sleep after being out working the dogs.


----------



## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Alice,

I'm sorry you are going through bad times. We've had bad times, too, but also good times. At the moment the bad times are outweighing the good times.

Working and trialling with dogs has provided a necessary and welcoming safety net to stop us from going under. Working with dogs or any animals can be therapeutic. It doesn't change the overall situation but it can bring a "welcome relief" into a world full of worries.

Here's to better times!


Gill


----------



## Catherine Gervin (Mar 12, 2012)

Alice, can your husband not sue over the stolen back wages? isn't wrongful termination and the lack of explanation and severance pay and the cheating of dutiful employee of their back wages totally against the law? at the VERY LEAST, isn't there someone/a few people whose path you could cross and inexplicably deck them in their faces? you could wear a ski mask and some crazy-homeless-person trench coat? that is some terrible stuff happening to you and your family for no reason whatsoever--i'm really sorry to hear it.
as for ditching doggie responsibilities, they are actually my most favorite things to do on Earth and it doesn't matter how crazy the day gets, how bedraggled i feel, or how sick or injured i get--my dog expects that she will get her exercise and attention and why did i even get a dog if i'm not going to take good care of her? that's not to imply that sometimes she isn't getting her second walk in the dark or that it doesn't take an hour to get properly clothed to go out in godawful weather but she's always a happy girl to go with me. those rare occasions when i get to take the dog out all by myself, and that means i can walk as far and as fast as i want to, rather than the pace it takes a little girl to walk the 2 1/2-3 miles, well those times are my favorite ever. my husband's feelings aren't even hurt by that anymore.


----------



## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Catherine is right. I'm 'way to gentle with my posts. But how can anyone top Alice for telling it like it is? 

Alice, you have a way about you that makes my feet find the ground pretty fast. Too bad the lesson is wasted on some....](*,)

When I grow up, I want to be just like you =D>


----------



## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Brian Anderson said:


> I will have him out this weekend Chris .. not sure how many busy streets I will be around but I will try to do that. I will look on my other computer but I have a video of him riding the shopping cart train at Sams ... hes an idiot of the highest order LOL


You don't get it. The dog in a shopping cart only shows something if the dog has big problems. Just walk him around the Sam's Club parking lot without saying or doing anything. Just walk.


----------



## kerry engels (Nov 7, 2010)

Alice Bezemer said:


> Personal stuff? You dare and sit there saying you have personal stuff? My god kid.. What is this infamous personal stuff you speak of? Ran out of tissues and lotion? The really sad thing of this all is that you own yet another dog that will get "Fubared" and the dog will be blamed for it as you are already showing in your posts.
> 
> You should grow the hell up and take some responsibility for your actions in stead of sitting on a forum... You do not have time to sit on any ****ing forums and ask idiot questions... You have personal stuff going on, remember?
> 
> ...


I really like this Alice chick, the world could use more honesty and straight shooters like her. =D> =D>


----------



## Catherine Gervin (Mar 12, 2012)

Sarah Platts said:


> Catherine is right. I'm 'way to gentle with my posts. But how can anyone top Alice for telling it like it is?
> 
> Alice, you have a way about you that makes my feet find the ground pretty fast. Too bad the lesson is wasted on some....](*,)
> 
> When I grow up, I want to be just like you =D>


i just thought for that for the one "artificial post" where that guy said women can't be dog trainers you let him off easy...you are a seriously accomplished trainer and Alice sounds to be a seriously accomplished trainer and there are several other ladies who post on here with great advice and accumulated accolades and i was surprised that you never rose to the occasion of tooting your own horn whatsoever. didn't mean that you are a softie in your responses, just refreshingly surprised by your unnecessary modesty!


----------



## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Tiago Fontes said:


> I'm sorry to hear this. That really sucks...
> 
> Speaking about "personal stuff" going on, although it is not a personal occurance, due to my job, I have a client going through a divorce who's soon to be ex-wife has already set his house on fire, vandalized his cars and a few other things. Plus I am working on trying to save some companies who are full of debt and almost closing doors, plus some criminal and some tax fraud cases... I get home at night and work comes with me.
> 
> ...


Yup! dogs settle your mind and give you perspective again. Whenever shit tends to crawl up on me I just grab Caylinn or Robbie and do some work. it never fails to settle me down and give me some hard needed focus again. Dogs are kinda brilliant like that


----------



## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Gillian Schuler said:


> Alice,
> 
> I'm sorry you are going through bad times. We've had bad times, too, but also good times. At the moment the bad times are outweighing the good times.
> 
> ...



Life can be a real bastard sometimes but we deal with it as it comes and we don't use it as an excuse. Sure it sucks right now but it willnae always suck so I just muddle on like everyone else in the world and wait for better times. Here's tae better times indeed, Gill! May they arive soon for all of us


----------



## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Catherine Gervin said:


> Alice, can your husband not sue over the stolen back wages? isn't wrongful termination and the lack of explanation and severance pay and the cheating of dutiful employee of their back wages totally against the law? at the VERY LEAST, isn't there someone/a few people whose path you could cross and inexplicably deck them in their faces? you could wear a ski mask and some crazy-homeless-person trench coat? that is some terrible stuff happening to you and your family for no reason whatsoever--i'm really sorry to hear it.
> as for ditching doggie responsibilities, they are actually my most favorite things to do on Earth and it doesn't matter how crazy the day gets, how bedraggled i feel, or how sick or injured i get--my dog expects that she will get her exercise and attention and why did i even get a dog if i'm not going to take good care of her? that's not to imply that sometimes she isn't getting her second walk in the dark or that it doesn't take an hour to get properly clothed to go out in godawful weather but she's always a happy girl to go with me. those rare occasions when i get to take the dog out all by myself, and that means i can walk as far and as fast as i want to, rather than the pace it takes a little girl to walk the 2 1/2-3 miles, well those times are my favorite ever. my husband's feelings aren't even hurt by that anymore.


The company was declared bankrupt and that was that. Luckily the backpay will be paid in part for 13 weeks back by the unemployment agency and they will pay backrupcy payment as well but they take their sweet time in doing so. First payment takes atleast 6 weeks and then they pay with a total of 6 weeks severance pay but since you don't get paid to begin with you end up 2 to 3 months behind on all payments and the state pretty much tells you "tough shit" Then there is the problem of it taking up to 6 months for the backrupcy desk to check all payments and to decide what they will and will not pay. They have refused payment of days built up in last 3 years. Hubby had 93 days that he built up due to extreme overtime each week and he simply never had a chance to take a few days off and now they refuse to pay those days, added to that there is about 520 hours of overtime... also not getting paid! Travelcosts for work 4 months... Nope, not getting that either! Now hubby gets unemployment which is 75 % for 2 months and then drops to 70% but all that is calculated on bare wages since they refuse to add all the benefits he had with his job.... Pretty much it means we lose about 50 percent income after taxes 

It is what it is, cannae change it so we will have to figure out how to float this boat and make it happen. Does it suck? It sure as shit does! Will not change my views on things tho. I refuse to sit in a corner and say "Life's a bitch!" Aint happening ever. Not going to use it as an excuse to shuck my responsibilities or take the easy way out. Not going to blame the entire world for this since its not their problem but mine to deal with and deal with it I will. My hubby and I will work our dogs, do our damndest to keep things afloat and see what tomorrow brings. All is not lost, it just got a bit harder for a while. Guess the dogs are in for a treat since they will just get worked more often then they are used to :lol:


----------



## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Sarah Platts said:


> Catherine is right. I'm 'way to gentle with my posts. But how can anyone top Alice for telling it like it is?
> 
> Alice, you have a way about you that makes my feet find the ground pretty fast. Too bad the lesson is wasted on some....](*,)
> 
> When I grow up, I want to be just like you =D>


:lol: 

Ask my husband if he can handle 2 wimins like me in the world :lol:

I think I can hear him screaming in fear already :mrgreen:


----------



## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

kerry engels said:


> I really like this Alice chick, the world could use more honesty and straight shooters like her. =D> =D>


Get to know me for real and you might want to revisit your views :lol:

My problem, and it is a problem, is that I refuse to mince words or play nice so people like me or agree with me...

There is a reason I always warn people to not ask me questions but most seem to be suckers for punishment :lol:

I am not going to lie or beat around the bush for any reason. I don't care if you are my best friend or worst enemy. I will give my opinion or answer a question if its asked and in most cases it will not be something you want to hear :lol:

Other side tho? I'm a Scot, I'm perfect....


----------



## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

Alice Bezemer said:


> Other side tho? I'm a Scot, I'm perfect....


You're nasty...thats what you are! LOL


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Hard times are character builders and Alice, being the character you are you are now my new hero!


----------



## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

The vast majority of really good dog trainers are female end of.......


----------



## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Matt Vandart said:


> The vast majority of really good dog trainers are female end of.......


thats no shit!


----------



## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Alice Bezemer said:


> Get to know me for real and you might want to revisit your views :lol:
> 
> My problem, and it is a problem, is that I refuse to mince words or play nice so people like me or agree with me...
> 
> ...


All of my friends are in your face, can be loud, say WTF they think and dont give a poop what anyone says or thinks... I LOVE my friends because I never have to wonder where I stand. Shy quiet mousy types make me suspicious lol


----------



## Frank La Fauci (Jun 29, 2012)

Michael. look up this new breeder of KNPV dogs. Looks like he will be breeding top KNPV Dutch Shepherds, in Australia.


http://www.knpvdutchshepherds.com/


----------



## Catherine Gervin (Mar 12, 2012)

Frank La Fauci said:


> Michael. look up this new breeder of KNPV dogs. Looks like he will be breeding top KNPV Dutch Shepherds, in Australia.
> 
> 
> http://www.knpvdutchshepherds.com/


i have looked at this site before--Tommy is to die for!!! 
other than that, i don't think there is an issue of Nature here, i think his problems sound like Nurture, to me


----------



## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Catherine Gervin said:


> i have looked at this site before--Tommy is to die for!!!
> other than that, i don't think there is an issue of Nature here, i think his problems sound like Nurture, to me


that probably why Tommy is in a TON of dogs lol


----------



## Michael Murphy (Nov 27, 2010)

Frank La Fauci said:


> Michael. look up this new breeder of KNPV dogs. Looks like he will be breeding top KNPV Dutch Shepherds, in Australia.
> 
> 
> http://www.knpvdutchshepherds.com/



im very happy with my pup, not looking for another one. question was just to gain knowledge on van leeuwen lines, django and berry 2


----------



## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

"NOTE: This is the exact opposite of how you should breed. No wonder, so many working canine breeds are absolutely pathetic. Thank God for euthanasia."

Lol


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Frank La Fauci said:


> Michael. look up this new breeder of KNPV dogs. Looks like he will be breeding top KNPV Dutch Shepherds, in Australia.
> 
> 
> http://www.knpvdutchshepherds.com/


my old female is on there... 
not sure why though honestly..


----------



## Meg O'Donovan (Aug 20, 2012)

Joby Becker said:


> my old female is on there...
> not sure why though honestly..


Looking through the pages on their males and females is a bit confusing. They list a lot of other people's dogs. Please correct me if I am wrong, but when I look through all those lists, it seems that they have one female (Lilo) and some frozen sperm. It would be clearer/more transparent if they put all the "ancestors" and "relatives" into a separate category, and so as to not be confused with dogs they actually own. Under the category of Breeding Program, it says two breedings are planned for this next year and gives the studs', but not the bitch's name. Are both those litters coming from Lilo? If so, is it usual to breed two litters a year from a bitch?


----------



## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

everybody is a "breeder" and they all have the best, the strongest, the hardest hitting blah blah blah ,,,, bullshit! Who wants to wager on how long ole boys website lasts?


----------

