# Accidental breeding's?



## Sarah Best

I was lurking on another dog related forum, and saw an argument between to people about responsible breeders and accidental litters. One person said that no responsible breeder would ever have an "Oops" breeding and the other one said yes every breeder has at least one "oops" breeding the their time of breeding. The person saying that even responsible breeders can have accidental litters described it like this _"When a breeder has an oops litter it just means that while they were being let out of something a male got ahold of her an oops litter for a breeder may be a dual-sired litter or it may just simply not be the male she wanted to breed the female to" . _Since im no breeder i cant comment on this, but for those of you who are breeders have you ever had an accidental breeding?


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## eric squires

Ooops litters happen, we have a a female who lives in the house with us on light tan tile flloors, so the moment she come into heat we see the blood droplets and separate her from the males, however at 7 yrs old her cycles have changed and instead of every 6 mth cycles, she will now come into heat as early as 4 mths, i think from deer meat well fed diet, anyway, so last heat the first thing i noticed was her tied to my male, ugh!, no blood ever, we kept her separate and hoped no pups, day 63 she whelps one female pup, Uno is the pups name, so oops litter happen


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## Niomi Smith

I'm not a breeder but the breeder that I bought my Leonberger from had an oops litter her dogs first heat after I got my pup from her.

She wasn't going to breed any of her females on that particular heat - so she kept the males completely seperated. So while the females were out - she has fenced pens each a few acres - the males were kept inside. Then she would crate the males while rotating the females back inside, then let the males out. Well, her big male decided that he wanted to breed, so he learned to open the door (he had never done this in two years of owning him). He got out into one of the yards with one of the females. When the breeder came down and saw the door open she was really confused, she went out to find the two tied.

I think anytime you have males and females, intact, under the same roof and you are trying to control the breeding, you are bound to have an oops or two.


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## Don Turnipseed

Theres that responsible breeder thing again. They have as many accidental litters as anyone....they just don't tell because they think that makes them appear less responsible.


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## Sara Waters

I would say that it shouldnt happen often, but it does happen. My working bred BC is from an oops mating. A young unproven male from excellent lines as his sire. He is turning out to be a very nice dog albeit high drive and a real handful.

The breeder is responsible and stands by all her pups throughout their lives and goes out of her way to be helpful. Very different form some other breeders I have dealt with in the past. So am not going to hold an accidental litter against her.


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## Don Turnipseed

I had one a couple of years ago. Full bro/sis. Gave one of the males to a guy that does depredation work for a living. He called last week and said the dog was a killing machine and really easy to work with and train. There were 9 pups and the people love them all, but, not a cross I would have done or repeat simpley because there just isn't enough room to work left out of those crosses. The only thing that makes the rest of us less than responsible is that we own up to our mistakes rather than lie about them. 

Dogs can be ingenious when they want to breed. I came home one day and a 13 1/2' X 7' kennel was gone but the bitch was in the yard with the male I was going to breed her to anyway. I went back to the yard to see whyere the kennel was and it was 30' to 40' down the hill butted up against the outer fence. Once she got iot butted up something had to give and she sprung the door in at the bottom. Had to weld a stp on the door frame and drive cent stakes in around the kennel. Now that it was well anchord, the next dog just pulled on the fencing until the ties holding it down came of the bottom and then walked out.


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## Ashley Campbell

I have about 12 more days until I confirm if our big OOPS happened or not.
Neutered the male dog Sept 3rd. Bitch came in heat Sept. 4th - according to my calendar, quite early as she wasn't due to come in until November.

Didn't think anything of neutered dog going out with bitch in heat. Way wrong answer. According to the vet, male dogs are still fertile for a couple of weeks up to 30 or more days.
We'll see if we get anything, she has gained some weight and has other signs. So I admit, I'm a dumbass. Shit happens.

All that "responsible breeder" stuff is just...well, an overbearing bunch of crap as far as I"m concerned. Titles don't make the dog, but ot hear these "responsible breeder" advocates, anything less than a CH titled dog with every health test known to man is a "BYB".


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## Thomas Barriano

Eight month old male DS and eleven month old female DS. Neither showed any interest in the other and no sign that they'd tied. The wife noticed the female getting a little thick in the middle and I made a vet appointment for three day later to check things out. The next day I hear a squealing coming from under a old van parked in the drive way. The female had dropped the first of seven puppies. I got her into a basement closet to deliver the other six.


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## Sara Waters

Ashley Campbell said:


> All that "responsible breeder" stuff is just...well, an overbearing bunch of crap as far as I"m concerned. Titles don't make the dog, but ot hear these "responsible breeder" advocates, anything less than a CH titled dog with every health test known to man is a "BYB".


With my working dogs I generally like to know that the parents are good workers with good natural intincts. I like to see how they work and what their style is. I like to know that the breeder knows their stuff when they plan matings.

I also like to know if there are health issues in the lines. I think some health testing is essential. My breeder lost an entire litter to TNS last year so she got all her breeding dogs tested for it. PRA is another essential one in cattle dogs that causes maximimum heartache if not tested for, and so on. I have an elbow dysplastic dog and it is now transpiring that quite a few of a similar breeding are ED as well. 

When it comes down to it I just like to know the breeder knows what they are talking about and has definite goals in place and is working their dogs and has a good understanding of genetic health risks of the particular breed and has some screening process in place.


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## Ashley Campbell

And? That's YOUR idea of a "responsible" breeder - my thoughts on it differs. I like to see some health testing, but I'm not nearly naive enough to think just because neither parent has HD that none of the pups can have it.
I could give a rat's ass less about conformation titles (aka, the CH title example) but don't you know if you buy from someone who doesn't conformation title their dogs, you're "lining the pockets of a BYB" or whatever load of horse shit those freaks try to sell you.


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## Sara Waters

Ashley Campbell said:


> And? That's YOUR idea of a "responsible" breeder - my thoughts on it differs. I like to see some health testing, but I'm not nearly naive enough to think just because neither parent has HD that none of the pups can have it.
> I could give a rat's ass less about conformation titles (aka, the CH title example) but don't you know if you buy from someone who doesn't conformation title their dogs, you're "lining the pockets of a BYB" or whatever load of horse shit those freaks try to sell you.


My dogs are working bred sheepdogs. They are not allowed to compete in comformation as they are not kennel club registered, they are registered on working registers. The kennel clubs do not recognise them as Border Collies and kelpies despite their very long pedigrees. I dont give a rats about conformation titles either. 

I am not naive about dysplasia either and know that tesitng is certainly not a guarantee, but it is proven you can decrease the incident by both testing and keeping tabs on your pups. Heck my ED dogs sisters are still in the breeders breeding program and that line is producing dysplastic pups, although the breeder denies it. Blames the owners.


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## eric squires

The possibility of an accidental breeding is why when we got into dutch shepherds we sold our dobermans, we didn't want any oops dutchermans.  we have had males break thru windows to get to bitches in heat, often we have to crate our male dutches in aluminum crates in our vehicles when our bitches are at peak heat cycle to make sure no accidents occur


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## Ashley Campbell

Sara Waters said:


> My dogs are working bred sheepdogs. They are not allowed to compete in comformation as they are not kennel club registered, they are registered on working registers. The kennel clubs do not recognise them as Border Collies and kelpies despite their very long pedigrees. I dont give a rats about conformation titles either.
> 
> .


Then by a lot of those nuts logic, you buy from a BYB (or are one) since they are un-registered with the kennel club specific breed club and not conformation titled parents.

That's the point there, what one persons idea of "reputable" is not another's. 

For instance, I prefer GSD's. I don't care about health testing beyond hips and elbows. I don't want to see conformation titles because I could care less if the father was VA1 or SG, I won't buy on a contract or co-ownership, and I won't buy a pup with limited registration. That's my personal preference. (and has already been hashed out in another thread so I'm not getting into that diatribe again)

Does that mean any pup I get is from a terrible "BYB"? Not to me, but according to a lot of the show dog folks, I must buy from a terrible breeder that will sell on full registration without a contract, and that must mean they don't care where their pups go, and blah blah blah blah...you get the drift.

We're speculating that I have an oops litter on the way? Does that make me a "back yard breeder"? 

Nope, they were ****ing in my living room, no backyard included when she got nailed. 

But to say that "reputable" breeders never have oopsies...I call bullshit.


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## Sara Waters

Having an accidental litter doesnt make one a BYB. Not having a kennel club registered dog doesnt make you a BYB.

A BYB is one that breeds indiscriminantly without a good knowledge of what they are trying to breed for, has no idea about the genetic problems their breed may have, and once their pups have gone have no further interest in them etc etc.

No I dont breed dogs myself - I buy from working dog breeders who have done the hard work and breed the type of working dog I am looking for. I know what I am looking for and that is all that counts for me personally with regards to choice of breeder. Have made a few mistakes along the way though and learnt from them. Conformation titles mean nothing in the world of the working BC an Kelpie


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## Selena van Leeuwen

haven´t got an oops litter, won´t say it won´t ever could happen, but try to prevent it.
I don´t have any dogs loose in the house or on the property, all dogs go out seperatly, that reduces the chance on accidental matings a lot.


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## mike suttle

I am planning my first "accidental breeding" right now. With Carlos to Reza (Wibo X Anne daughter). Should happen this Friday. Ron (Dutch guy) and Stephan (French guy), the two trainers who work here with me have said how crazy I am for planning this breeding. So I joked with them and said it would happen "accidentally" that way if the litter was too crazy I would have an excuse. LOL


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## Thomas Barriano

eric squires said:


> The possibility of an accidental breeding is why when we got into dutch shepherds we sold our dobermans, we didn't want any oops dutchermans.  we have had males break thru windows to get to bitches in heat, often we have to crate our male dutches in aluminum crates in our vehicles when our bitches are at peak heat cycle to make sure no accidents occur


Dutchermans was a possibility too. My Dobermann male also had access to the DS female. An accidental breeding of young DS was bad enough. A litter of Dutchermans would have been a whole nother situation


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## Harry Keely

mike suttle said:


> I am planning my first "accidental breeding" right now. With Carlos to Reza (Wibo X Anne daughter). Should happen this Friday. Ron (Dutch guy) and Stephan (French guy), the two trainers who work here with me have said how crazy I am for planning this breeding. So I joked with them and said it would happen "accidentally" that way if the litter was too crazy I would have an excuse. LOL


Should be a nice oops, Mike didn't that dog come from Remco in Holland if I am not mistaking. Hes got some nice dogs. Just figured I throw my .02 cents in. Anyways good luck Mike with that breeding I know of several pups in Holland and one or two here that are all doing really nice from what I understand.


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## Harry Keely

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> haven´t got an oops litter, won´t say it won´t ever could happen, but try to prevent it.
> I don´t have any dogs loose in the house or on the property, all dogs go out seperatly, that reduces the chance on accidental matings a lot.


I'm along the same controlled atmosphere as Selena in being one out at a time. The rest are locked up.


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## Harry Keely

Accidental breedings are ACCIDENTS thats why its written that way, I haven't had one either but yes its possible, hopely not knock on wood. No reason to beat people up over it because hopley they are telling the truth that it was a accident and probally are already embarrased over it.

At the same time if it is a accident don't go charging a arm and a leg which I have seen before too. But you should charge only what it cost to feed, vet the pups divided by the amount of pups. Still make sure they still get imprinted though and exposures and suck it up and chalk it up to a lesson learned.JMO of what I would do if I got hit with a accidental breeding.


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## Ashley Campbell

Harry Keely said:


> At the same time if it is a accident don't go charging a arm and a leg which I have seen before too. But you should charge only what it cost to feed, vet the pups divided by the amount of pups. Still make sure they still get imprinted though and exposures and suck it up and chalk it up to a lesson learned.JMO of what I would do if I got hit with a accidental breeding.


Exactly that. I've figured in the costs minus anything big and extra and that's all I'm going to charge - feeding, shots, microchips, health certs - though I have friends out of state that want pups for pets so I'm cutting them a deal since they're going to pay for shipping of more than one (I did a buy one get one free and don't pay my gas to the airport an hour and a half away deal, lol) and these are people I know are good owners. It's worth taking a bit of loss to me to know the people they'll go to.

If I don't end up with pups from it, awesome, but if I do, at least 4 already have good pet homes and probably one more.

That's another thing, I hate when people have an accidental litter and then say "oh but we were planning a breeding anyway with these two" - doesn't sound like much of an accident to me. I tried to prevent mine with a costly vet bill to have dudes nuts cut off and I still failed...that's gotta be Murphy's Law.


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## Don Turnipseed

I see no reason to give the dogs from an accidental breeding away. I had an accidental breeding of a full bro/sis and they were great pups. I wouldn't have bred a full bro/sis on purpose but both dogs are very active participants in my breeding today. Both are very good dogs. On the other hand, I got a 10 gen female back a few years ago because the owner died. Her boyfriend had the dog with his dale afterwards and he was murdered. No one knew the dog was bred when I took her back. I met the sire when I picked the female up and also knew the breeders of the sire. Since the breeding was not with my dogs and I don't care for the dog she bred to, I unloaded a litter of 12 with no papers. To each his own. Maybe when I breed this German pup I should double the price because the dogs behind him are all titled? I won't but it is much the same thing in reverse. Much has to do with the situation....if the breeder is in the habit of keepiung a bunch of crappers around and one got lucky, then yes, unload the pups for cost. If they keep only good dogs around, pups are like going to be good.


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## Selena van Leeuwen

mike suttle said:


> I am planning my first "accidental breeding" right now. With Carlos to Reza (Wibo X Anne daughter). Should happen this Friday. Ron (Dutch guy) and Stephan (French guy), the two trainers who work here with me have said how crazy I am for planning this breeding. So I joked with them and said it would happen "accidentally" that way if the litter was too crazy I would have an excuse. LOL


 You probably get a very nice litter, we did Wibo x Dushi (Grietje x Wibo) last year, and the litter Megan & Scott Bays are having on the ground is also father/daughter over Wibo (Wibo x Hedwig (Anne x Wibo).


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## Selena van Leeuwen

Harry Keely said:


> Should be a nice oops, Mike didn't that dog come from Remco in Holland if I am not mistaking.


 Correct, we sale all our pups with a contract (so we can have the first option to buy them back), I think Remco forgot that...'cause Reza was in America before we even heard she was for sale.:evil:


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## Harry Keely

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> Correct, we sale all our pups with a contract (so we can have the first option to buy them back), I think Remco forgot that...'cause Reza was in America before we even heard she was for sale.:evil:


Sorry was just asking and was trying to compliment the breeding, wasn't aware of the whole contract scenario, apologize in advance for possibility of casuing headaches for any of you. My bad.


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## mike suttle

I was also not aware of any contract between Dick and Selena and Remco. Reza is a very nice little dog with excellent hunt and retrieve drive, and super nerves. I am happy to have her here, but I feel bad now that I know she was suppose to go back to the Van Leeuwen's.
I have heard that her litter from Iwan (Arko brother) was very good. So it is good to know that she produces well with Arko bloodlines, and I think she will also produce well with Carlos.


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## Gerry Grimwood

mike suttle said:


> I am happy to have her here, but I feel bad now that I know she was suppose to go back to the Van Leeuwen's.


You could take the high road and send her back home.


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## mike suttle

Gerry Grimwood said:


> You could take the high road and send her back home.


Yes, I could. And I would be happy to do so as long as I could get all of my money back for her. And the litter from her and Carlos.


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## Harry Keely

mike suttle said:


> I was also not aware of any contract between Dick and Selena and Remco. Reza is a very nice little dog with excellent hunt and retrieve drive, and super nerves. I am happy to have her here, but I feel bad now that I know she was suppose to go back to the Van Leeuwen's.
> I have heard that her litter from Iwan (Arko brother) was very good. So it is good to know that she produces well with Arko bloodlines, and I think she will also produce well with Carlos.


Mike, yea from what I understand that Iwan as well as Arko produce superb dogs, I have heard that they are some of the top producers from Castor that Castor has produced. Your breeding should be a nice one with some strong strong genetics. Once again I meant no harm in asking my earlier questions. Once again my apologies if any are needed.


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## Gerry Grimwood

mike suttle said:


> Yes, I could. And I would be happy to do so as long as I could get all of my money back for her. And the litter from her and Carlos.


I once bought a GSD pup with that "send it back to us if it doesn't suit you" clause..I did and to this day I haven't received any money back, they did tell me a new home was found for the pup/cull :lol:

I should've just shot the damn thing.


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## Harry Keely

Gerry Grimwood said:


> I once bought a GSD pup with that "send it back to us if it doesn't suit you" clause..I did and to this day I haven't received any money back, they did tell me a new home was found for the pup/cull :lol:
> 
> I should've just shot the damn thing.


I have that in my own contract that I reserve first dibs if the dog is to be sold and also reserve the right to turn down re purchasing as well. Sometimes you send a good dog out and get a ****ing messed up dog back, not always but sometimes. Of course I offer a fair dollar depending on many different points some being age, how long the dog has been there, what condition the dog is in, also where the dogs training is at that time etc.........


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## mike suttle

Gerry Grimwood said:


> I once bought a GSD pup with that "send it back to us if it doesn't suit you" clause..I did and to this day I haven't received any money back, they did tell me a new home was found for the pup/cull :lol:
> 
> I should've just shot the damn thing.


Yes, but this is different. I really like Reza and she is a dog worth owning and breeding to. So, I will not take a loss of money to give her up, but I would ship her back to the Van Leeuwan's as long as I got my money back for her. But I would prefer to keep her here of course because she is an excellent little dog.


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## Selena van Leeuwen

@ Mike: you couldn't know (now you do, and you know a dog is bred/sold by us, do me a favor and shoot me an e-mail if you're intrested in buying one). I'm pretty sure you have paid A LOT more than I would have done/would/could.I think you did a good buy, but I would have really liked it to know that she was for sale 'cause if I decide not to buy them back, I at least want know where "my puppies" end up BEFORE they are sold. Now I know, and that is the most important to [email protected] Harry, no harm done.


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## Martine Loots

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> haven´t got an oops litter, won´t say it won´t ever could happen, but try to prevent it.
> I don´t have any dogs loose in the house or on the property, all dogs go out seperatly, that reduces the chance on accidental matings a lot.


Exactly. I couldn't imagine an "oops litter" to happen.
It's not that hard to keep dogs separated.


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## Sarah ten Bensel

A friend of mine got a pup from an "oops" litter. Boykin Spaniel. Bummer was that two males got to the female during the cycle. One male was a third generation line on the female and the other male was a full brother. Its a small gene pool. They had to test the puppies DNA to see which pup had which sire. The one pup was the full bro/sis, the rest from the other sire. Sadly that pup developed several "recessive" breed-specific problems: epilepsy, allergies, hypothyroid, liver disease and died young. This also a very well-reputed breeder with field proven dogs. I guess it showed what was in the lines however, but the female was "culled" by being spayed. The other pups had minimal health problems. But I think the Boykin has a puny gene pool. I think they added an American Water Spaniel outcross in there eventually. It happens.


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## Wawashkashi Tashi

Sarah Best said:


> Since im no breeder i cant comment on this, but for those of you who are breeders have you ever had an accidental breeding?


Haha.. I love the opportunity to tell this story! :-\"
A "show breeder" I know got a working dog for PP, & had him kenneled in a chain link run. We had said he needed to be in a welded kennel plus the latches *really needed* to be locked, but it didn't happen. There was a perimeter fence around the yard that the kennels were in, as well as the person's garden. One day they decide that since they are going to be out gardening right near the kennels to keep an eye on her, it's ok to put a bitch in heat out there for some fresh air.
So the clever & _highly-motivated _working male figures out the latch on his kennel & sneakily "breaks" the bitch out of her's, then sneaks her past the person gardening to go open the yard gate & get into the side yard where he can have some privacy to have his way with the bitch! By the time the person realized there had been a break-out they were tied! 2 months later, 8 puppies! :-o
It was most definitely accidental & sure, it *could* have been avoided, but the person honestly didn't expect that level of conniving behavior from the male! Where there's a will, there's a way!


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