# Healthy sources of fat



## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

I currently feed all 4 of my dogs a raw diet. The diet is generally as follows: main source of RMBs is chicken frames (includes the necks). The added muscle meat is a variety of species (mostly wild game), but is mainly venison. I add organs from mainly beef or turkey and also feed tripe on a daily basis. Eggs are given 3 times a week. I add blueberries often as well. I also add salmon oil and Vit E.

What are safe sources of fat to add to this for weight gain? My dogs all seem to have lost a little weight over the winter - I assume from burning more calories in the cold temps. I thought about adding just more food in general, but the diet I'm feeding seems rather lean to me too. Would adding a higher fat ground beef be OK?


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

Should be. You could also give them more eggs. There's a good bit of fat, protein, and omega 3's in eggs.


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

In the winter I add a little bit of ground beef fat to my dogs meals (1x per day). Does not bulk them up, but allows them to maintain. I do not feed meat with a ton of fat on it usually so it works out okay and I have never had any issues. 

The meat locker is happy to grind up their trimming or cuts they do not want, so it is not pure fat, there is some added meat in there as well.


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## Dan Long (Jan 10, 2008)

Hog fat! I use pork shoulders and they usually have a good layer of fat on the outside as well as good marbling inside. 

Higher fat ground beef is good too. I like the stuff in the 5# tubes that is the 73/27 ratio. 

That is a pretty lean diet you are giving if you are using a lot of venison. Chicken frames are pretty lean even with the skin on. 

It'd be easy enough to just feed them a bit more, but I think adding some good fat in the diet will be better in the long run. Even when it gets warm out and they aren't burning as much fuel to stay warm, fat is a good source of energy for them.


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## Christen Adkins (Nov 27, 2006)

Good suggestions. I second the higher fat ground beef and pork shoulders.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Konnie Hein said:


> Would adding a higher fat ground beef be OK?


Yeah it is ok, I feed my dog medium ground from time to time in the winter. As you already know though it doesn't clean teeth so they still need some bones. 

Quick question do your chicken carcasses include the skin? As that is where a lot of fat is for chicken. 

The ground chicken carcasses I get do not have the skin or little skin. My dog gets 2-3 small eggs a week as well as Salmon oil and my supplier has 40lb bags of fish parts for $13 So I add that too in a ratio of 1-8 with the chicken. I have been adding about a tablespoon of Canola oil every day to my mixture since I've started her on RAW and even though it is a vegetable based oil. IMHO fat is fat.


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

My chicken carcasses mostly include the skin. I say that because some of them are stripped of most of the skin. The vast majority of them include the skin. 

I'll add the higher fat ground beef or beef/pork fat as recommended. I think that will give me the most bang for my buck. Good suggestions, folks. Thanks!

My team vet told me the latest and greatest recommendation for a fat source for working dogs was corn oil. I can't quite wrap my brain around that.


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

I was just thinking of how much I wish I had this problem - not enough fat in my diet so that I was losing weight. 

Maybe I'll just set out a fifth bowl for myself and fill it with what they're eating. :grin:


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Konnie Hein said:


> Maybe I'll just set out a fifth bowl for myself and fill it with what they're eating. :grin:


HAHA..me too!!

Oh wait....NO TRIPE for me though..the dogs can have my share of that sh*t...:-& :-& :-&


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Funny thing about fat and dogs, my 7.5 mo old pup is on raw and average fat content is less that 20% probably around 15 but I have a hard time keeping him slim. He's almost 70 lbs right now, which is abit high for his breed I think, I don't add any extra fat.

http://www.workingdogforum.com/gallery/showimage.php?i=1179&c=10

He looks abit heavy to me, he eats 30 ounces of food daily split into two feedings.


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Gerry, 

It might be the way he is standing in that picture....do you have one of him standing without being "scrunched" up with his neck stretched out like that?......he is a beauty. I love his coat the way it shines. 

I really do not worry about a couple extra pounds on a pup or growing dog like that.....

He does not look fat to me, maybe a pound or two, but like I said, it may be the pic.


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## todd pavlus (Apr 30, 2008)

Love the dog Gerry, where did you get him? Also I feed my dog about the same as you except he is a very lean 90lbs. Maybe 2-3 % his body weight. So if my math is right yours would be 25-26 oz. So if you think he is heavy just cut back a little:smile:


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

I have a local commercial raw food sponsor and I recently got a copy of the feed analysis. I was very surprised at the low amounts of fat in the premade raw products I have been feeding.

There are a variety of protein sources and they are all between 6%-10% fat (depending on the protien source). I expected them to be higher, not sure why.

I look at the bag of Orijen I have (emerge kibble I keep in my truck) and it has 18% fat listed. Seems like a big difference doesn't it? Way less protien in my raw food as well.

I also feed stuff the dog has to chew, buffulo tail, turkey necks and duck necks from the same provider and venison I provide myself. All are quite lean.

My dog does seem to loose some weight in the winter, I have tried up the amount of the higher fat foods in relation to the leaner ones for the season.

Over all he is healthy and has the energy I require so I don't sweat it too much.

I would say if the dogs are not keeping weight on, you should also just feed more food as well as upping a little fat.


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## Tina Rempel (Feb 13, 2008)

Great question, I was thinking of asking a similar question.  Sooooo, as another source of fat does anybody add a bit of lard to their diets? Nice clean fat.....


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Not all dogs need a 30/20 ratio in their food, if they are in the Iditarod or Yukon quest they need this and more but most dogs that get out once or twice a week to train it's just too many calories in and not enough out.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

todd pavlus said:


> So if my math is right yours would be 25-26 oz. So if you think he is heavy just cut back a little:smile:


I don't count the veggies or offal or occasional egg and shit so I might be low on my estimate.


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> Not all dogs need a 30/20 ratio in their food, if they are in the Iditarod or Yukon quest they need this and more but most dogs that get out once or twice a week to train it's just too many calories in and not enough out.


I do however have to feed my dog about the same amount you feed your dog (almost 2 lbs a day) and my dog is only 42 lbs.

Your dogs are really cute. I am close enough to come and steal 'em sometime. Would they come with me if I brought food?


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Jennifer Coulter said:


> Your dogs are really cute. I am close enough to come and steal 'em sometime. Would they come with me if I brought food?


I'm sure they would dump me for you in a heartbeat, heli rides and all that exciting stuff makes me seem like a tumor :lol:


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Konnie Hein said:


> I currently feed all 4 of my dogs a raw diet. The diet is generally as follows: main source of RMBs is chicken frames (includes the necks). The added muscle meat is a variety of species (mostly wild game), but is mainly venison. I add organs from mainly beef or turkey and also feed tripe on a daily basis. Eggs are given 3 times a week. I add blueberries often as well. I also add salmon oil and Vit E.
> 
> What are safe sources of fat to add to this for weight gain? My dogs all seem to have lost a little weight over the winter - I assume from burning more calories in the cold temps. I thought about adding just more food in general, but the diet I'm feeding seems rather lean to me too. Would adding a higher fat ground beef be OK?


 
Dog do burn more calories in the winter. To put a few extra Lbs on them. I do not think you need to feed more fat. If you just feed more food it does not have to be fat. they will burn the Carbs, then fat, then protien. Whatever fat is not used for energy will be stored. Just up the amount of meat, the fat will store itself.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Konnie, a really helpful tool is the USDA's online resource where you can look up a pretty detailed nutrient list of a ton of different kinds of foods. 

http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/search/

The values for chicken won't include the bones since we don't tend to eat them, but for example, type in "raw chicken" in the box and it will give you a bunch of options.

So like for example, ifyou were feeding chicken necks, in 100 g of chicken necks (raw chicken necks with skin), it gives you these values (looks like averages of 8 samples):

Energy 297 kcal
Total lipid (fat) 26.24 g

And you can compare that to an equal amount (say another 100 g) of another kind of meat, like dark meat with skin. Or turkey, vension, rabbit, etc. They even have a few values for grass-fed bison and beef. Very cool!


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> I'm sure they would dump me for you in a heartbeat, heli rides and all that exciting stuff makes me seem like a tumor :lol:



shhhhhhh, my dogs will think I am a tumor too (OMG that made me laugh).....


Jennifer, bring your heli when you come and play....better yet, bring some of this big exploding thingy's (LOL) we have some old junk semis I wanna get rid of...that and make a pond for some dock diving. :-D :-D :-D :-D


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Konnie, a really helpful tool is the USDA's online resource where you can look up a pretty detailed nutrient list of a ton of different kinds of foods.
> 
> http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/search/


Thanks for this! This is great! You know I'll be spending the next several hours calculating the values for my dogs' diets... :smile:


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

James Downey said:


> Dog do burn more calories in the winter. To put a few extra Lbs on them. I do not think you need to feed more fat. If you just feed more food it does not have to be fat. they will burn the Carbs, then fat, then protien. Whatever fat is not used for energy will be stored. Just up the amount of meat, the fat will store itself.


I need to do more reading of some papers my team vet recently sent to me. These papers address how much protein and fat are suitable for canine athletes. 

According to a chart in one of the papers, the intermediate athlete (low to moderate duration and frequency), which is what I consider most of my dogs to be, the values of the diet should generally be as follows:

Energy Density: 4.0-5.0 kkcal ME/g DM
Fat: 15-30% fat DM or 30-55% of calories from fat
Protein: 22-32% protein DM or 20-25% of calories from protein

(from The Canine Athlete, by Toll and Reynolds)

Also according to this paper, "the only practical means of significantly increasing the energy density of a food is to increase its fat concentration." It goes on to describe the benefits of increasing fat in the diet of the canine athlete. It looks to be good reading, but I haven't read through it all yet.

I'll have to calculate the values for the diet I'm feeding, but just an overall glance leads me to believe I'm not feeding enough fat. The game meat I feed is incredibly lean.

I'm going to start by adding beef fat, which is the easiest thing for me to get. I'll keep y'all posted.


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

I finished reading the above article today (actually it is Chapter 10 of Small Animal Clinical Nutrition). Overall it is a good article that I would recommend to anybody. However, I found the following quotes to be interesting, and felt it was more proof that veterinary books and articles are geared towards commercial dog foods and against home made diets (aka brainwashing of vet students):

"Fortunately, most homemade rations for canine athletes use a commerical dry dog food as a base..."

"Because many elite canine athletes are fed homemade foods containing meat and animal by-products of variable quality, the safety of these foods should always be evaluated. Some raw meat sources contain abundant bacteria and bacterial toxins. These materials may pose a health hazard for the people that care for these animals and for the athletes themselves."

There is no mention of the possible bacteria and other harmful substances found in commercial diets. Interesting.


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## Christen Adkins (Nov 27, 2006)

I was looking over a couple articles yesterday and came across this older one about working dog diets, mainly about fats and proteins. It's a little more raw-geared.

http://www.b-naturals.com/newsletter/working-dog-diets/

Apologies if it's been posted before.


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## Meng Xiong (Jan 21, 2009)

James Downey said:


> Dog do burn more calories in the winter. To put a few extra Lbs on them. I do not think you need to feed more fat. If you just feed more food it does not have to be fat. they will burn the Carbs, then fat, then protien. Whatever fat is not used for energy will be stored. Just up the amount of meat, the fat will store itself.


Yes, my understanding is that fat is metabolized first.

I'd also just upping the total calories.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Konnie Hein said:


> ... There is no mention of the possible bacteria and other harmful substances found in commercial diets. Interesting.


Apparently the many and varied recalls (and deaths) have not been publicized on their planet. :lol:


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Jennifer Coulter said:


> I have a local commercial raw food sponsor and I recently got a copy of the feed analysis. I was very surprised at the low amounts of fat in the premade raw products I have been feeding.
> 
> There are a variety of protein sources and they are all between 6%-10% fat (depending on the protien source). I expected them to be higher, not sure why.
> 
> I look at the bag of Orijen I have (emerge kibble I keep in my truck) and it has 18% fat listed. Seems like a big difference doesn't it? Way less protien in my raw food as well..


Is the percentage so different due to the water content of the raw?


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

You really can't make meaningful comparisons between macronutrients in fresh and kibble without doing a dry matter conversion. Or I can't, anyway. :lol:


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Connie Sutherland said:


> You really can't make meaningful comparisons between macronutrients in fresh and kibble without doing a dry matter conversion. Or I can't, anyway. :lol:


Yes, the conversion is pretty simple, but basically your raw or home cooked diet is going to look more similar in terms of just straight numbers to canned food than to dry. So Konnie, for example:




> The most accurate means of doing this is to convert the guarantees for both products to a dry matter basis. The percentage of dry matter of the product is equal to 100% minus the percentage of moisture guaranteed on the label. A dry food is approximately 88-90% dry matter, while a canned food is only about 22-25% dry matter. To convert a nutrient guarantee to a dry matter basis, the percent guarantee should be divided by the percentage of the dry matter, then multiplied by 100. For example, a canned food guarantees 8% crude protein and 75% moisture (or 25% dry matter), while a dry food contains 27% crude protein and 10% moisture (or 90% dry matter). Which has more protein, the dry or canned? Calculating the dry matter protein of both, the canned contains 32% crude protein on a dry matter basis (8/25 X 100 = 32), while the dry has only 30% on a dry matter basis (27/90 X 100 = 30). Thus, although it looks like the dry has a lot more protein, when the water is counted out, the canned actually has a little more. An easier way is to remember that the amount of dry matter in the dry food is about four times the amount in a canned product. To compare guarantees between a dry and canned food, multiply the guarantees for the canned food times four first.​ It is especially important to look at the moisture guarantee for canned foods, even when comparing a canned food with another canned. Under AAFCO regulations, the maximum percentage moisture content for a pet food is 78%, except for products labeled as a "stew," "in sauce," "in gravy," or similar terms. The extra water gives the product the qualities needed to have the appropriate texture and fluidity. Some of these exempted products have been found to contain as much as 87.5% moisture. This doesn't sound like much difference until the dry matter contents are compared. For example, a product with a guarantee of 87.5% moisture contains 12.5% dry matter, only half as much as a product with a 75% moisture guarantee (25% dry matter).​


From: http://www.fda.gov/cvm/petlabel.htm


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Connie Sutherland said:


> You really can't make meaningful comparisons between macronutrients in fresh and kibble without doing a dry matter conversion. Or I can't, anyway. :lol:


Yes, Lynn sent me some infor via PM about this as well. 

My info has the nutients listed from the raw food in a deydrated form but they are not percentages.....then it has a listing in percentages "as fed", ie with all the moisture. I have to do a bit of research to figure all this out.....


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