# Less then desireable temperaments in breeding...WWYD??



## Kristin Countryman (Oct 13, 2010)

I do not know if this is in the correct location feel free to move it if it is not...

I am curious, and have a question for breeders. I don't have this problem, but I have seen this problem, and would like to know what other would do.

What do you personally do when you have a litter of less then desireable temperaments? Do you keep the dogs? Cull the dogs? Spay/neuter/place? Do you feel comfortable placing in concern that it could be a potential liability? 

I am honestly curious to know what people of another breed other then my own (APBT) have to say, because I know the answer I would get from an upright APBT breeder...CULL.

Now I know no one intentionally breeds for improper temperament or weak nerves, but how do/would you handle the situation when one pops up, in one or more of the pups, and no amount a nuture is going to change this dogs hard wired nature???


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## Dave Martin (Aug 11, 2010)

Not a breeder but what exactly are you referring to as 'less than desirable temperament'? What are you seeing in the pups that worries you? (or is this hypothetical?) I would say there's an appropriate environment for most dogs, but nothing wrong with spaying/neuturing if they display flaws in their character.. JMHO


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## Kristin Countryman (Oct 13, 2010)

I am not a breeder. This is hypothetical so I don't have anything that I am seeing. But I am planning a litter this year and I want to know how breeders handle this situation, it has to pop up more often then people like to admit, and when it does what do people do to ensure they are producing/selling dogs of sound temperament. Just trying to start a discussion really to see what people think or may do. Your answer CAN be hypothetical as well, but I would perfer if this has been something someone has actually done. It 's always be easier to SAY what you would do then it is to actually follow through with it.

Anything you or any of you would consider less then desireable...such as fearfulness, inability to adjust to new environments well, shyness, weak nerves, extremely defensive behavior...

And I am not looking for way to be proactive about this I am curious to know what would be someones course of action if all temperament testing of parents, and necessary "proving" of the parents has been done prior to breeding, and all avenues of trying to properly socialize have been exhausted.


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## Tammy St. Louis (Feb 17, 2010)

I am not a breeder, ( bred 2 litters of schipperkes in my life ) but my hope would be minimum spay / neuter of ALL the pups in that litter and not to breed the parents again possibly or mimimum not that combination again 
my own experience is alot of breeders are kennel blind and dont see whats really going on in their breedings, there can be health or temperment flaws and they just try to breed maybe to a better dog, but the problem is still there and will keep popping up , i know its hard as a breeder to dump a dog in the breeding program because of a flaw but if more people did it , i think we would have some better dogs out there, if every breeder lets just one thing go , temperment, tail set, teeth , structure and so on, you end up with pups that have a little bit of everything wrong ..
My own experince with one of my am staffs, is i went to a well known breeder who was recommended to me , i met the mother of my dog, father was from russia so i could not meet him . mother seemed to have a nice temperment..
got my pup at 10 weeks he seemed pretty good, by 4 months i was contacting a behaviourist on his behaviours, i talked to the breeder of my concerns she offered me another pup , which i did not want at the time. 
i ended up with a severly dog aggressive ( common ) fearfull , insecure am staff, he is a dog that would bite a person ( never has ) i am super good at management for him ..dont put him in situations that would make it happen, 
all trainers and behaviour experts i talked to told me to put him down, he was a danger to society ,, 
over this time i talked alot to the breeder who was a very nice person, i neutered my dog, 
she told me none of the other pups had shown this behaviour, ( so i belived it and i understand that sometimes you can get a wonky pup even if you do the right things ) 
over time , i met some of the relatives of my dogs, who were almost all nervous dogs who could not handle pressure at all , scared of new flooring and such, breaking out in hives from nerves at a dog show , 
the breeder ended up breeding my dogs littermate sister, who i had a disagreement with her about, she said, the sister dog was nice and had good temperment , ( which i dont doubt) but because my dog was messed up my belief was she should have spayed the whole litter , not just my dog, 
anyways, as time goes on , i see the relatives of my dogs, the line is going to crap , and nobody seems to notice, or care, 
so thats my experience, 

my hope would be to at least spay / neuter the whole litter, and as for culling, sometimes these things dont pop up before the dog is gone from the litter,


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I prefer to cull the idiots that think they know about temperament. There are less of them, and they are in everyone else's business, so they will not be missed. HA HA

Of course you cull.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

I had a litter of big time barkers once. That's when I found out how inheritable the aimless barking was. I put 7 down and kept one that ended up being the 2007 Nat'l Master Fur dog. Battled that barking with him for years. Had another litter of neat pups that would line up for treats, get in their pen when told etc.....but you couldn't touch them. Gave a couple to a bear hunter and culled the rest. There are times you just have to cut your losses when you produce dogs that will never fit.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Kristin Countryman said:


> I am not a breeder. This is hypothetical so I don't have anything that I am seeing. But I am planning a litter this year and I want to know how breeders handle this situation, it has to pop up more often then people like to admit, and when it does what do people do to ensure they are producing/selling dogs of sound temperament. Just trying to start a discussion really to see what people think or may do. Your answer CAN be hypothetical as well, but I would perfer if this has been something someone has actually done. It 's always be easier to SAY what you would do then it is to actually follow through with it.
> 
> Anything you or any of you would consider less then desireable...such as fearfulness, inability to adjust to new environments well, shyness, weak nerves, extremely defensive behavior...
> 
> And I am not looking for way to be proactive about this I am curious to know what would be someones course of action if all temperament testing of parents, and necessary "proving" of the parents has been done prior to breeding, and all avenues of trying to properly socialize have been exhausted.


Kristin,

You are going to find that there are breeders who breed what you and anyone else for that matter consider less than desirable temperaments including genetic spooky fear or aggressive behavior that can't be altered with environmental nurturing. I've seen breeders place the spooky pup even after they themselves have spent a year with trying to socialize it etc., and then disaster. Personally if it can't be what I call a functional pet/companion, its cull or it doesn't leave my house. I wouldn't give it to someone else. It will come back to haunt you. Having rehabbed rescues that came out of some of the worse conditions into go anywhere and deal functional pets, feral type fear or spookiness is genetic. And you have to really delve deep to find out about the life of the parents in terms of their ability to deal outside of their typical surroundings. As far as what is a functional pet? They can function as a companion with their family without any aggression issues. Go out in public and not be a danger to anyone or to themselves because they can't handle it. I've heard of some nutso dog aggression that is sometimes labeled social aggression or dominance. For me that's a deal breaker. My dogs because of what I do have to be able to tolerate other dogs and I have multiple dogs. You have to look at your lifestyle situation and then ask all the right questions.


Terrasita


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## Kristin Countryman (Oct 13, 2010)

Tammy St. Louis said:


> I am not a breeder, ( bred 2 litters of schipperkes in my life ) but my hope would be minimum spay / neuter of ALL the pups in that litter and not to breed the parents again possibly or mimimum not that combination again
> my own experience is alot of breeders are kennel blind and dont see whats really going on in their breedings, there can be health or temperment flaws and they just try to breed maybe to a better dog, but the problem is still there and will keep popping up , i know its hard as a breeder to dump a dog in the breeding program because of a flaw but if more people did it , i think we would have some better dogs out there, if every breeder lets just one thing go , temperment, tail set, teeth , structure and so on, you end up with pups that have a little bit of everything wrong ..
> My own experince with one of my am staffs, is i went to a well known breeder who was recommended to me , i met the mother of my dog, father was from russia so i could not meet him . mother seemed to have a nice temperment..
> got my pup at 10 weeks he seemed pretty good, by 4 months i was contacting a behaviourist on his behaviours, i talked to the breeder of my concerns she offered me another pup , which i did not want at the time.
> ...


Thank you for sharing the experience this is spot on with what I see happening alot as well. Maybe not exactly this way, but the same general "don't want to see the issue for what it is" problem. I believe in the very least spay/neuter/place...but in some situations I think hard culling is necessary and right.


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## Kristin Countryman (Oct 13, 2010)

Don Turnipseed said:


> There are times you just have to cut your losses when you produce dogs that will never fit.


Very true! Thanks for your input!!



Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Kristin,
> 
> You are going to find that there are breeders who breed what you and anyone else for that matter consider less than desirable temperaments including genetic spooky fear or aggressive behavior that can't be altered with environmental nurturing. I've seen breeders place the spooky pup even after they themselves have spent a year with trying to socialize it etc., and then disaster. Personally if it can't be what I call a functional pet/companion, its cull or it doesn't leave my house. I wouldn't give it to someone else. It will come back to haunt you. Having rehabbed rescues that came out of some of the worse conditions into go anywhere and deal functional pets, feral type fear or spookiness is genetic. And you have to really delve deep to find out about the life of the parents in terms of their ability to deal outside of their typical surroundings. As far as what is a functional pet? They can function as a companion with their family without any aggression issues. Go out in public and not be a danger to anyone or to themselves because they can't handle it. I've heard of some nutso dog aggression that is sometimes labeled social aggression or dominance. For me that's a deal breaker. My dogs because of what I do have to be able to tolerate other dogs and I have multiple dogs. You have to look at your lifestyle situation and then ask all the right questions.
> 
> ...


I know that kind of spookiness you are referring to...very unstable, accident waiting to happen IMO. I too have to have dogs that can at the very least tolerate each other and be civil in public.

Great post thank you for your input!


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I prefer to cull the idiots that think they know about temperament. There are less of them, and they are in everyone else's business, so they will not be missed. HA HA
> 
> Of course you cull.


Uh Huh!!


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Kristin Countryman said:


> ......because I know the answer I would get from an upright APBT breeder...CULL...........


guess I'm an uptight mal and beauce breeder then.:roll:


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Kristin Countryman said:


> I do not know if this is in the correct location feel free to move it if it is not...
> 
> I am curious, and have a question for breeders. I don't have this problem, but I have seen this problem, and would like to know what other would do.
> 
> ...


I do pup tests at 6 and 8 weeks..if pups fail..they ARE GONE...


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Round here any working dog that is remotely unsuitable or is not showing the right stuff very early on is shot. 

I have a young kelpie that fell into that category from my neighbour. She has great instincts but is quite timid and not enough force round difficult livestock so she was due to be shot, I took her and she is turning into an awesome agility dog albeit she is not the sort of dog I would normally like and I have had to work differently with her.


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## Ricardo Ashton (Jun 3, 2010)

I tend to agree with Don. But as a breeder, I look VERY carefully to look at the parents temps. and abilities to reproduce themselves before even settling on a stud for a dam. But if any of the offspring dont make the cut they are culled.
I had one mating a few years aback. A beautiful bitch & wonderful stud, and both were proven to copy their genetics. I thought this would be the litter to end all litters. Only one male, the runt, survived my screening process. If a progeny shows they won't be suitable from early on, it really best to cut your losses. But their are some advantages to rehoming other than PTS. Primarily, you can track the progress of the pup to see how it develops, if it might be worth a 2nd look down the road. JMHO


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## Tammy St. Louis (Feb 17, 2010)

so for all of you who test pups and if they fail kill them , what is the tests that you do , what do they intail ?


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## Ricardo Ashton (Jun 3, 2010)

I personally test for pain tolerance, separation anxiety, biddability, confidence, a few other details. To give a detailed description of what goes into screening would take a while.


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## Kristin Countryman (Oct 13, 2010)

Debbie Skinner said:


> guess I'm an uptight mal and beauce breeder then.:roll:


What's with the eyeroll? I said that because there aren't many "upright apbt breeders out there" 

What makes you "uptight" then?


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Kristin Countryman said:


> What's with the eyeroll? I said that because there aren't many "upright apbt breeders out there"
> 
> What makes you "uptight" then?


thought you meant uptight and it was a typo thus the eye rolling. Thought you were already judging and you didn't really want to know but just asking questions to stir things up.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Tammy St. Louis said:


> so for all of you who test pups and if they fail kill them , what is the tests that you do , what do they intail ?


I don't test them for anything. I work with them and make the decision according to what I see, if they are going to be able to live a decent life. In the case of the barking litter, the answer was no. Beautiful dogs but barked at nothing 24/7. The litter I couldn't touch....I got one that loved to be close to me but never closer than 5 feet. As an experiment I got her accustom to coming in the house and even sleeping on the bed to watch the effect. She never change even with 6 mo of close contact. I loved working with those pups and they were all smart. Very attentive to me.....but there was no way they were going to have a normal life and I refuse to dole pups out to people that think they are magicians when all they are going to do is make the dogs life miserable. I know everyone thinks they have the touch but I am not worried about what others think, I worry about the quality of life the dogs particular temperament is going to allow him to have.


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## Kristin Countryman (Oct 13, 2010)

Debbie Skinner said:


> thought you meant uptight and it was a typo thus the eye rolling. Thought you were already judging and you didn't really want to know but just asking questions to stir things up.


I can understand that, but I assure you I am not. I know what the answer would be if I asked this question on an apbt board...whether those people really practice what they preach or not that is what they would say. I wanted to know what the breeders of other working breeds had to say...

I really think if more breeders were more selective and culled many breeds would be in a much better place today so thank you for being so "uptight" ;-)


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## Kristin Countryman (Oct 13, 2010)

Don Turnipseed said:


> I don't test them for anything. I work with them and make the decision according to what I see, if they are going to be able to live a decent life. In the case of the barking litter, the answer was no. Beautiful dogs but barked at nothing 24/7. The litter I couldn't touch....I got one that loved to be close to me but never closer than 5 feet. As an experiment I got her accustom to coming in the house and even sleeping on the bed to watch the effect. She never change even with 6 mo of close contact. I loved working with those pups and they were all smart. Very attentive to me.....but there was no way they were going to have a normal life and I refuse to dole pups out to people that think they are magicians when all they are going to do is make the dogs life miserable. I know everyone thinks they have the touch but I am not worried about what others think, I worry about the quality of life the dogs particular temperament is going to allow him to have.



Yes and if they aren't going to make it with you then they more then likely will not make it elsewhere and will just end up in a shelter somewhere anyway, and will probably be PTS anyway so why not just nip it in the bud. How do you cull? Do you do it yourself? In the world we live in today can you just walk into the vet and ask them to put, what they might see as healthy sound animals, down if they do not fit into what you are trying to produce?


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Kristin Countryman said:


> Yes and if they aren't going to make it with you then they more then likely will not make it elsewhere and will just end up in a shelter somewhere anyway, and will probably be PTS anyway so why not just nip it in the bud. How do you cull? Do you do it yourself? In the world we live in today can you just walk into the vet and ask them to put, what they might see as healthy sound animals, down if they do not fit into what you are trying to produce?


 I never took one to the vet so I am not sure what they would say. As for how? I close my eyes, wiggle my ears, turn around three times. When I open my eyes they are gone. Learned it from David Copperfield. :wink:


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## Ricardo Ashton (Jun 3, 2010)

More often than not culling is a DIY kinda thing, though I know a few vets that will do it with a little persuasion. I usually dont sell washouts as pets or give them away because of the same reasons you mentioned Kristin.
Some progeny that may not make the cut in your program, if given to someone with limited experience, can end up pretty badly. 
One thing I've learned by experience. A lot of people who claim they can handle a dog, have no idea what to do to control a confident, dominant 120lb male rottie.


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Kristin Countryman said:


> Yes and if they aren't going to make it with you then they more then likely will not make it elsewhere and will just end up in a shelter somewhere anyway, and will probably be PTS anyway so why not just nip it in the bud. How do you cull? Do you do it yourself? In the world we live in today can you just walk into the vet and ask them to put, what they might see as healthy sound animals, down if they do not fit into what you are trying to produce?


I do not know a vet around here that would assist in culling. It is a diy and something not discussed in great detail. Or, get with a mentor breeder to help you evaluate, etc. I wish there was a shot that would make the bad ones normal and at the same time sterilize them, but there isn't so we are stuck with culling. It's a sad necessity of breeding no matter what species are being bred.


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## Chris Jones II (Mar 20, 2011)

Tammy said:
"my own experience is alot of breeders are kennel blind and dont see whats really going on in their breedings, there can be health or temperment flaws and they just try to breed maybe to a better dog, but the problem is still there and will keep popping up , i know its hard as a breeder to dump a dog in the breeding program because of a flaw but if more people did it , i think we would have some better dogs out there, if every breeder lets just one thing go , temperment, tail set, teeth , structure and so on, you end up with pups that have a little bit of everything wrong ." 

Right on the money. From what I am seeing, another part of the problem is oftentimes breeders don't even see the problem as a problem and the dog with a horrible temperament is seen as "too much dog" for a shitty handler when it is really just poor temperament. Take the comment about the 120lb Rott for example. That's bullshit. The breed as a whole has gone down the crapper in the last 25-30 years. You can't just sit there and blame shitty owners for the downfall of a breed. The dogs were overproduced by enough idiot breeders that eventually the shit leaked back into the well. Now a days a good Rott is not easy to find. 

Many breeders can't even tell the difference between a dog that behaves badly and a dog with a bad temperament. Many actually breed for traits that make dangerous dogs. Then they just want to break even on the cost of having the litter so they sell them to anyone who has the cash, after maybe two go to actual working homes, and keep selling the ones that get returned for biting people, or being too much dog. It is always just dogs behaving badly due to poor upbringing, almost never because of a weak or wildly imbalanced temperament. God forbid a breeder produce a few shit dogs in a litter.


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## Kristin Countryman (Oct 13, 2010)

Ricardo Ashton said:


> More often than not culling is a DIY kinda thing, though I know a few vets that will do it with a little persuasion. I usually dont sell washouts as pets or give them away because of the same reasons you mentioned Kristin.
> Some progeny that may not make the cut in your program, if given to someone with limited experience, can end up pretty badly.
> One thing I've learned by experience. A lot of people who claim they can handle a dog, have no idea what to do to control a confident, dominant 120lb male rottie.


Kind of what I figured, but never done it myself so I didn't know...
I agree, I have only ever owned pit bulls so it is what I know, but regardless of what many bleeding heart rescuers will say, these dogs are not for everyone, as are many working breeds. So I hesitate at the thought of placing such an animal in the hands of someone who has never had experience, or cringes at the thought of possibly breaking up a dog fight, or may think LOVE will fix all it's problems. ](*,)



Chris Jones II said:


> Tammy said:
> "my own experience is alot of breeders are kennel blind and dont see whats really going on in their breedings, there can be health or temperment flaws and they just try to breed maybe to a better dog, but the problem is still there and will keep popping up , i know its hard as a breeder to dump a dog in the breeding program because of a flaw but if more people did it , i think we would have some better dogs out there, if every breeder lets just one thing go , temperment, tail set, teeth , structure and so on, you end up with pups that have a little bit of everything wrong ."
> 
> Right on the money. From what I am seeing, another part of the problem is oftentimes breeders don't even see the problem as a problem and the dog with a horrible temperament is seen as "too much dog" for a shitty handler when it is really just poor temperament. Take the comment about the 120lb Rott for example. That's bullshit. The breed as a whole has gone down the crapper in the last 25-30 years. You can't just sit there and blame shitty owners for the downfall of a breed. The dogs were overproduced by enough idiot breeders that eventually the shit leaked back into the well. Now a days a good Rott is not easy to find.
> ...


This is also a good point, as I have been in this situation. I co-owned a dog from a "well known, reputable " breeder that re-homed, a dog she had bred, with me to try to work. This dog did not work out for me in many many ways, and after 6 months of nothing, but issues he was re-homed yet again by the breeder. This dog did not have enough redeeming qualities to out weight his crappy ones and IMO should have been eliminated all together or at the very least from the gene pool rather then constantly re-homed. I feel the breeder should have recognized this dogs problems for what they were instead of being in denial about the situation. 

But at the same time I-owning this dog second hand- do not know if this was a product of poor up bringing by the original owner or poor breeding, there are certain things about this particular dog that made me feel it was more likely some combination of both...

I do also think there are times when a dog IS truly too much dog for someone, especially with some of the breeds we have here, and in that situation the dog probably would have all kinds of issues to work through, but maybe some breeders use this as an excuse far too often to take the focus off of the real issue at hand. Or maybe more time/care needs to be taken in selecting proper homes???


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Chris Jones II said:


> Tammy said:
> "my own experience is alot of breeders are kennel blind and dont see whats really going on in their breedings, there can be health or temperment flaws and they just try to breed maybe to a better dog, but the problem is still there and will keep popping up , i know its hard as a breeder to dump a dog in the breeding program because of a flaw but if more people did it , i think we would have some better dogs out there, if every breeder lets just one thing go , temperment, tail set, teeth , structure and so on, you end up with pups that have a little bit of everything wrong ."
> 
> Right on the money. From what I am seeing, another part of the problem is oftentimes breeders don't even see the problem as a problem and the dog with a horrible temperament is seen as "too much dog" for a shitty handler when it is really just poor temperament. Take the comment about the 120lb Rott for example. That's bullshit. The breed as a whole has gone down the crapper in the last 25-30 years. You can't just sit there and blame shitty owners for the downfall of a breed. The dogs were overproduced by enough idiot breeders that eventually the shit leaked back into the well. Now a days a good Rott is not easy to find.
> ...


Chris, I have seen an incredibly "experienced" breeder go the opposite way and give a pup away due to it was not going to be able to work and then the dog end up placing in the top 5 at the FCI worlds. No kennel blindness....Actually I thought they are completely honest with what they think they see in a dog.

I have also seen 2 other dogs whom were returned to breeders due to "undesirable traits" and the dogs also are fine and went on to place in the top 10 at the FCI worlds. Shit most of the good dogs I know were returns...and the breeders selling them could not see the potential in the dog at 8 weeks old.

I think there is always bias in the human mind, and we see what we precieve not what's really there. Everyone is guilty of this. 

I think it's incredibly diffcult to use the behaviors of a pup as a solid indication of what a dog will be like when they are grown. Pups are a gamble...This is why there is market for green dogs. of course there are exceptions to the rule. Also, we can see somethings like the desire to chase, bite....but fear? Aggression? ....they are puppies. How many of you had unrealisitic fears as a child...the dark, clowns, that sort of thing. No one is holding it against you. Jeff was not always such rugged individual. believe it or not, he shit his pants and was scared of santa. Aggression? WTF. My kid slapped another a girl at daycare. Is that a good predictor he is going to be his wife when he is older?

Everyone seems to be able to pick out the shitters, and the good ones at 8 weeks old. I say BS. if that was true, you all would see my new puppy and hang your leashes up


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Kristin Countryman said:


> In the world we live in today can you just walk into the vet and ask them to put, what they might see as healthy sound animals, down if they do not fit into what you are trying to produce?


As a very soon to be vet, my answer is "depends..." If the dog/pup is happy, healthy, and would make a nice pet, no, I would not. They bred it, they need to take responsibility for it. Spaying/neutering and placing into a good pet home is fine and either reconsidering or not breeding that combo again, and the breeder could see how it develops. Besides, if a breeder claimed they had a high percentage of dogs who were superstars in either work or show, but it was just because they have to continually cull a large number of pups to get to that point, that's not really success, is it? 

If the dog/pup is extremely fearful, has really poor nerves, and could be a danger to people, then it becomes a quality of life and/or safety issue, and it would be easier to convince me. I told my own parents that I'd gladly put their own nervebag Vizsla down who was a fear biter from the get go.


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Kristin Countryman said:


> I really think if more breeders were more selective and culled many breeds would be in a much better place today so thank you for being so "uptight" ;-)


The other part of the equation here is the breeding stock. I know a breeder who claims she is very selective about temperament and she used to be very good about testing her dogs in other environments and I had a few good dogs from her. Then she got married to another breeder and got big with too many dogs and the problem is the dogs never get off her property so cant be tested outside familiar surroundings. 

I got a new dog from her and she was perfect with the family and people and dogs she knew but developed severe fear issues with strangers around 6 months old. It was nothing to do with her upbringing as she was well socialised and trained like all my other high drive working dogs and I have never had problems. I met several other ACDS from the same sire and they were similar. I rang the breeder and told her and she just said her sire was a beautiful natured dog. Yeah so was mine in familiar surroundings. She just couldnt handle the outside world very well. 

So she continuued breeding from this dog untill I think she got more complaints about fear aggressive pups and I noticed he is now gone from her program. I will never go near her as a breeder again. 

All the pup culling in the world wouldnt have fixed this situation. 

My neighbour has a fear aggressive working kelpie and when I met the mother I could see exactly why. Should never have been bred in the first place.


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

I think it would be ideal if a breeder would just selfishly keep every puppy and cull them as they mature. Do to limited space and time that is not always possible for everyone. If your goal is to produce outstanding dogs for yourself and you don't care about selling anything...it might be worth it. If a breeding produces 1 outstanding dog and the rest are crap. IMO that breeding was 100% success. The breeders just may never know that because they sold every pup to who knows where.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

I think breeders have to raise and keep their best for breeding. The breeder also needs to work the dogs in the venue that he markets them in or at least observe all stages of the training and development. Its interesting to me that breeders breed the puppies they couldn't sell and ones that they consider less than desirable for whatever reason. Culling later has its issues. How late? There's a litter on the WDF. I remember how they were described ast puppies in the whelping box and then how they were described as 6 month olds and now as adults. Some of the trait descriptions from baby puppy to adult are night and day---from desirable to undesirable in certain trait areas. I don't want to keep whole litters of puppies. You can't do them justice raising them. Maybe, once with the first litter just to get a baseline but not again. If its really so unpredictable that I have to wait until maturity to know what my dogs produce, then its time to start over.


Terrasita


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## Chris Jones II (Mar 20, 2011)

Ben Thompson said:


> I think it would be ideal if a breeder would just selfishly keep every puppy and cull them as they mature. Do to limited space and time that is not always possible for everyone. If your goal is to produce outstanding dogs for yourself and you don't care about selling anything...it might be worth it. If a breeding produces 1 outstanding dog and the rest are crap. IMO that breeding was 100% success. The breeders just may never know that because they sold every pup to who knows where.


True enough but what about the breeder that thinks his/her caca don't stink and no way a bad pup could come from a litter they produce. It happens with show and working breeders alike that the breeder won't take any responsibility when a puppy they thought was the beesknees turns out to be a nutcase fear-biter or a paperweight dud. They do know the pups are out there and they just don't care. Also, How can a kennel advertise a litter as "will do any work or sport" that doesn't even make any sense. 

@James Downey I agree with you, but I wa smore referring to adult dogs than puppies and the much higher incidence of less than functional or desirable temperaments compared to poor upbringing as precursor to an unprovoked or inappropriate bite/ attack.


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

Chris Jones II said:


> True enough but what about the breeder that thinks his/her caca don't stink and no way a bad pup could come from a litter they produce. It happens with show and working breeders alike that the breeder won't take any responsibility when a puppy they thought was the beesknees turns out to be a nutcase fear-biter or a paperweight dud. They do know the pups are out there and they just don't care. Also, How can a kennel advertise a litter as "will do any work or sport" that doesn't even make any sense.
> 
> @James Downey I agree with you, but I wa smore referring to adult dogs than puppies and the much higher incidence of less than functional or desirable temperaments compared to poor upbringing as precursor to an unprovoked or inappropriate bite/ attack.


 
I think the best dogs that compete at the highest levels are often times bought as grown dogs...one can make a more accurate judgement call.


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## Chris Jones II (Mar 20, 2011)

Ben Thompson said:


> I think the best dogs that compete at the highest levels are often times bought as grown dogs...one can make a more accurate judgement call.


That makes sense. Something I will keep in my thoughts as I choose a dog in the future.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: Jeff was not always such rugged individual. believe it or not, he shit his pants and was scared of santa.

Never from Santa. Figured that one out pretty early. There have been a few times where I was in a situation that I was pretty sure I was not going to make it. I was scared for about 20 seconds each time. I can assure you that at those moments, nothing was going to be coming out of that area. And nothing did for about a week afterwards.

Breeders are blind in a lot of ways. Sure, I remember when I was younger, I was way too ruthless when I culled. There might have been something really really good that I culled. Many times I culled because I only wanted 3 or 4 pups from that breeding. Never had only 3 or 4, usually 10 and up.

People can talk about culling all day long. However, when you go and there is this little creature that is here in this world only because of you, it is not so easy. It takes a lot more than you think to cull a litter. Ever try snapping a pups neck ? Better to smack it's head on the ground. 

Yes, that is what it takes. No, I cannot do that anymore. People just want their pups to get their own home, and their own person. 

Quote: It happens with show and working breeders alike that the breeder won't take any responsibility when a puppy they thought was the beesknees turns out to be a nutcase fear-biter or a paperweight dud.

I have seen so much bad training and raising over the years I cannot tell you all the stories in one sitting. The odds of getting the right person for your pup is not very good. Too many people are full of shit. EVERYONE is a dog trainer. LOL

That bad training, or the moron that has to constantly "test" his puppy with loud noises, excessive pressure in tug work claiming that it is "all prey" because he/she read that somewhere, could that not be a contributing factor ? Dogs read body language very well. Too many people see the one out of every 1000 pups on youtube that is really nice and start comparing their dog to that pup. They want to "test" their pup to see if it can stack up. No way that could cause any problems.

Then when the pup doesn't stack up, they send it back. The pup goes to a new owner, and the new owner has had pups before, and goofs with the pup, and the pup doesn't see all the baggage that the previous insecure nightmare had, and goes on to do really well. We see that here and there. Then you have the people that DO get a really nice pup, and either don't work it, or push it way beyond what it is capable of, and the dog breaks down in it's head. Now it is a nervebag, fear biter bla bla bla. Maybe they never take it anywhere, or listen to some moron that tells them that their dog should not be touched by other people if it is going to do bitework. Many combinations of stupidity contribute as well as yes, breeders sometimes get screwed up dogs, and are blind to the fact that the dog should never have left the whelping box alive.

I have seen a dog pop up here and there in working GSD pedigrees, Jello or some shit like that. I look at that dogs work and think, what the hell were they thinking, but then you look at the dogs down the line, and was his genetics just totally lost in the mix ? You have to remember that you are rolling million sided dice every time you breed. The Czechs do the same damn thing here and there. You see a show dog in the mix.

I don't see too many breeders here producing all that and a bag of chips, and I bust their balls about it. But the truth of the matter is that many times the owners are shit. You add the two together and ????????

Lastly, there are many people that cannot see what is right in front of them. Many people are like this, either they think that the pup is all that, and he is not, or they think that the pup is crap, and they are the ones at critical points in the dogs life that are screwing it up. Too many people could not read a dog if it was in english.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: Jeff was not always such rugged individual. believe it or not, he shit his pants and was scared of santa.
> 
> Never from Santa. Figured that one out pretty early. There have been a few times where I was in a situation that I was pretty sure I was not going to make it. I was scared for about 20 seconds each time. I can assure you that at those moments, nothing was going to be coming out of that area. And nothing did for about a week afterwards.
> 
> ...


 
REALLY like this side of the coin. 


T


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## Chris Jones II (Mar 20, 2011)

That makes a lot of sense Jeff, although I would definitely say that there are more ****tards breeding dogs than owners buying puppies and screwing them up. You seem to feel the balance is leaning toward the opposite direction. I don't know. The pups we have raised, with the exception of 2 fear biters we had to put down, have been stellar farm dogs and pets. My parents running what was an open pastoral farm at the time, we could not have dogs on the premises who would bite people so they had to go. All those pups were from working farm stock unadvertised unpapered, just good working dogs all around. From what I absorbed through my lifetime, it is really difficult to mess up a dog, even a BC. A dog with a solid temperament will just be a good dog despite all the stuff that can happen on a working farm, heavy machinery, animals screaming, kids roughhousing, strangers doing strange shit to the pups. I mean it is super loud and scary around a farm sometimes.

The fear biters we had were just wrong from the git go. Couldn't touch them without getting dogbit which is not a trait a working farm dog can survive with. And they didn't.

From a few stray emails I've gotten it seems there are dogs like that being produced and breeders are like "well, yeah, no shit, it's a working dog" don't let people touch the dog, don't let kids near the pup and you're an idiot if you let kids near the dog as an adult". Owners are getting screwed by breeders promising solid temperaments and dogs that can do any work then defining "solid temperament" as "super aggressive or fear biter" pick your poison. I'm sorry, to be a working dog a dog has to pass a temperament test. If the dog is a nutcase "nervebag" or whatever, then it necessarily cannot be a working dog unless the handler suppresses the undesirable behavior by force which is just masking it. 

The fact that breeders are not taking responsibility for their dogs based on how a puppy acts?? I call bullshit. "Well it was a good puppy when I sent it to so and so, but they messed it up so they can deal with it." BS. You have to be a ****ing idiot trying to ruin a dog to mess it up THAT badly. And a stable dog will still come out on top in the end. The "shitter" dog will always be a shitter dog or whatever it's called. JME. 

I can't live with a dog like that. Is that what I should expect from a working dog and working dog breeders these days? If so I'm not interested.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Chris,

I think you're right on a lot of points. My dad said the same thing---if it was genetically sound, you can bring it back. I certainly saw this with at least three rescues I can think of. However, that said, I've seen dogs ruined with some crazy stuff. As you said take that same dog and put him in the right hands, you might be able to turn him around if he had it genetically. However, I think breeding and genetics can only go so far especially for a "purpose" dog. You won't turn him into a fear biting nutcase [maybe] but bad upbringing and training can ruin him for the intended purpose. I see both sides. I see dogs offered for sale that wouldn't leave my house. It has to have certain minimums for me to declare it safe and be able to function as a pet/companion. If it doesn't have that, then it can't leave here. I know a breeder who tried to place a genetic spook after keeping it for a year and a half. It was a disaster. It was unfair to the people and they were very upset and just as unfair to the dog. I'd have to leave the risky and experimental breedings to someone else. I failed culling. I put down a rage syndrome dog at 6 months. Took me a couple of months to do it and I cried buckets. A lot of people are impatient and won't wait out a puppy. One of the best dogs I've owned I got at 9 months because the breeders thought he had fallen apart. I just thought he was staging. At 14 months, he proved me right. People don't have patience to work a puppy and/or let him mature. And if the TD or seminar person doesn't like him---out he goes. Like I said, there are two sides.

T


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## Chris Jones II (Mar 20, 2011)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Chris,
> However, I think breeding and genetics can only go so far especially for a "purpose" dog. You won't turn him into a fear biting nutcase [maybe] but bad upbringing and training can ruin him for the intended purpose.
> T


That makes sense but I was referring to the futility of changing temperament more than training influences on specific working abilities or behavior or whatever. Sounds logical to me.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Im figure gentics is abouit 35% ajnd the environment is about 65% in how a dog turns out. Geneics determines what a dog "can" be, the environment he is raised in determines what he "will" be


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: That makes a lot of sense Jeff, although I would definitely say that there are more ****tards breeding dogs than owners buying puppies and screwing them up.

There are fuktards on both sides, but by far it is the owners that foul things up. I am not talking about a dog that is genetically screwed up here.

Quote: The fear biters we had were just wrong from the git go.

Yet you kept them. I would have sent them back immediately. That is where breeders have figured out the stupidity of the general public. They "love" their furbabies and would never give up such a wonderful puppy. However, wonderful is not what they have at all. Shit is shit, and it is never wonderful. People tell me how great their dog is, but then list off, 30 exemptions to that. Great dogs do not have exemptions. I have taken peoples dogs from them to "train" and given them a pup to watch for me. It takes a few days, but that is when they realize that their dog is shit.

Goes back to people cannot see what is in front of them. Denial is not healthy, and admitting denial does not make you better.

Quote: I'm sorry, to be a working dog a dog has to pass a temperament test.

No, not really, not when the tester is not qualified. This is like how some people can look at the piano, and just play it. There are people out there that just will never ever play a piano. EVER. Most people that are in dogs are not going to get it. They will always need an instructor. ALWAYS.

You find people who are qualified, and I am all for it. That is how it starts, the people that start this shit are qualified, but then they show bob, who shows mary, who shows jim, who shows betty and so on. In the end, the results are piss poor. I know people that give classes to pass a temperament test, and it works. The testers cannot see the difference between the trained behavior, and what the dog is.

Quote: 
The fact that breeders are not taking responsibility for their dogs based on how a puppy acts?? I call bullshit. "Well it was a good puppy when I sent it to so and so, but they messed it up so they can deal with it." BS. You have to be a ****ing idiot trying to ruin a dog to mess it up THAT badly. And a stable dog will still come out on top in the end. The "shitter" dog will always be a shitter dog or whatever it's called. JME

I sell you a dog it is yours. Do you bring the car back to the dealer when you smash the front end in and tell me it was poorly made ?? No, then why would I ?

People do not want to take responsibility for themselves, they want others to blame when they are idiots. I have had people bring back dogs because they wanted a strong working dog, and then 18 months later, want their money back, as they really just want a pet. I have already spent the money, and quite frankly could give a shit what you want at this point.

It was not as if they showed up, we talked for 30 seconds and they took off. They were told what the dog was going to be, and what they had to do. Now the dog has put the brother in law in the hospital, because they did not do ANYTHING that I told them to do............... and lets face it, it is their dog, and not mine.

Guarantees. This bullshit came about to sell dogs. You should see the look on peoples faces when I tell them I am not guaranteeing shit. They ask about hips, as someone told them something about that, but they cannot remember. I tell them that I will guarantee that the pups have good hips, but at 4 times the price.

You are going to take a lot of risk when you buy a puppy. It is the way it is. Once I sell that dog to you, it is yours. I have no problem replacing a pup if you can prove without a doubt that the HD was genetic. If I never hear from you, and two, three years later, you want to "send" me a radiograph, you can get ****ed. If I am in contact, and you are seeing things and do the right thing the whole time, I am getting you another pup.

And when I tell you that there are many many idiots in dogs, and YES, YES, they are that stupid, I am not kidding. Call any breeder and ask about puppy calls that they remember being a nightmare. It is most of the calls you get. Nearly all really.

Quote: 
I think you're right on a lot of points. My dad said the same thing---if it was genetically sound, you can bring it back.

Broken is broken. You miss those critical times when the dog has to be socialized and you are ****ed, genetics or not. You push too hard during a fear period, you are ****ed.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Out of curiosity........what is a fear period and when is it supposed to be. Is it something I should know and be aware of?


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

_"Guarantees. This bullshit came about to sell dogs. You should see the look on peoples faces when I tell them I am not guaranteeing shit. They ask about hips, as someone told them something about that, but they cannot remember. I tell them that I will guarantee that the pups have good hips, but at 4 times the price."_

Maybe it is a selling point, but it's been my experience that many puppy buyers never follow through and do the health checks. The health information on puppies in each litter is important for me to have as I want to know as soon as possible how the litter is healthwise to make future breeding decisions. 

I want the puppy buyers to check their dog's hips, elbows especially and eyes (in order of importance) by the time they are 2yrs rather than here about some problem when fido starts limping at 5-6 yrs old and the vet x-rays then. I actually was a big fan of GDC at Davis (now closed) that would certify starting at 12 months as in that way, I could get the info about dogs even faster. I've never had a good or excellent 12 mos old hip not pass at 24 mos.

If there is a better way to get the owners to do the health checks, I'm all ears. Paying for it won't really work as I always tell people to shop the x-ray prices at vets and/or go to clinics. My vet charges $95 now for hips and $50 for elbows, but I've heard of some outrages prices paid if you don't shop and ask ahead of time...I'm not going to pay an outragous vet bill if someone pays $400 or so for X-rays for example. I guess I could raise the puppy price by $150 or to include the eyes at a clinic ($30) up to $180.00 and give it back when they get their health checks done. But, even with my guarantee of a replacement puppy, I don't get that many folks to do the health checks for me so... 

Example of varying vet prices: I had to shop like crazy just lately to get teeth capped on Bexter just recently and got quoted in CA by 3 different vets $9500-$5500 for the same work...pretty big spread. I asked the vet at UC Davis why such a big difference in prices here vs France and she honestly told me "it's what people are willing to pay for vet care here" ](*,)

excuse the tangent, but this is from one small breeder's perspective... I think the thread has taking on a life of it's own already though.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

I guarantee mine and have never had any issues. When I'm buying for me, the guarantee means you'll stand behind your product and you believe in it. I'm not interested in a clause that says you'll replace the dog if I give it back. I'm not giving it back. Down the road when I need dog again then the replacement may come in handy. What's more important is that the breeder has done the work---x-rayed/OFA'd the dogs on both ends. Sorry, not an A Stamp program fan. I've had one dysplastic dog--all four extremities. None since because I'm been emphatic about OFA pedigrees.

T


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> I guarantee mine and have never had any issues. When I'm buying for me, the guarantee means you'll stand behind your product and you believe in it. I'm not interested in a clause that says you'll replace the dog if I give it back. I'm not giving it back. Down the road when I need dog again then the replacement may come in handy. What's more important is that the breeder has done the work---x-rayed/OFA'd the dogs on both ends. Sorry, not an A Stamp program fan. I've had one dysplastic dog--all four extremities. None since because I'm been emphatic about OFA pedigrees.
> 
> T


I don't believe in requiring someone to give back their dog that they are attached to, but just give proof of the defect in question for me is good. I'll take a dog back if someone doesn't want to keep. Replacement guarentee for me doesn't mean one gives a dog back. Guess I didn't specify that, but now I have. Oh and Dys-A in France is like OFA passing (could be Exc, Good, Fair) and Dys-B is borderline. Not sure how A-stamp in Germany compares. I look at the family and sibs.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Out of curiosity........what is a fear period and when is it supposed to be. Is it something I should know and be aware of?



Don, if you look very close you'll find a "NO FEAR" birthmark on the forehead of all working bred terriers.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Don, I am sure that your dogs have it, they just probably start a fight. That should sound familiar. HA HA

Debbie, I am even smaller than you, and you have been around probably since I was breeding Rotts, or real close to that, so HA HA you are old.

You are right about puppy owners not getting health checks. Many have overweight pups and or feed crap food or any one of many reasons other than genetics that a dog can get HD.

When someone cares about their dog, and are at least in contact with me, I have no problem getting them a pup. For the new people, guarantee means that the dog will not have these problems. They are not in listening mode when you are explaining HD things. They are in puppy mode.

Most of us have read the forums where the person is trashing a breeder, and then actual questions about how the dog was brought up are asked and the person goes melt down. To me, you bought the dog, ****ed up, and now want a reprieve from responsibility. I had people send me x-rays that didn't have the dogs name, or even breed on them wanting a replacement pup. 

The people that actually care, are going to be in touch, sending videos of training, and those people are going to get taken care of.

I am not as nice as you. You got that puppy back with the legs all screwed up and underweight, I cannot deal with that. I am not that nice. That is another thread entirely. LOL


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Debbie Skinner said:


> I don't believe in requiring someone to give back their dog that they are attached to, but just give proof of the defect in question for me is good. I'll take a dog back if someone doesn't want to keep. Replacement guarentee for me doesn't mean one gives a dog back. Guess I didn't specify that, but now I have. Oh and Dys-A in France is like OFA passing (could be Exc, Good, Fair) and Dys-B is borderline. Not sure how A-stamp in Germany compares. I look at the family and sibs.


 
Debbie,

I wasn't implying that you did. Some do. I don't require that you give mine back either. I look for the homes that are going to be committed to the dog for its life. I'll take any of mine back and if the certifying agency says there is a genetic defect, that's enough. 

T


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Don, I am sure that your dogs have it, they just probably start a fight. That should sound familiar. HA HA
> 
> Debbie, I am even smaller than you, and you have been around probably since I was breeding Rotts, or real close to that, so HA HA you are old.
> 
> ...


I'm not as vocal on a forum for sure about the situation. But, I wan't all that "nice" :twisted: 

Hey, Drako is the poster child of how it's hard to screw up character. He's a star detection dog even with his very bad start.


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> ....Debbie, I am even smaller than you, and you have been around probably since I was breeding Rotts, or real close to that, so HA HA you are old......


I believe small is a disadvantage not advantage when collecting health information and evaluating as there's less information to interpret. Just meant even though it's harder for a smaller breeder like me to draw conclusions for the data, I feel it's important to get the health info back. Not saying that dogs cannot be ruined through neglect including horrible upraising and nutrition..yes, Drako's adult structure is a prime example. However, I haven't heard of problems with hips, elbows and believe he's sound. He is narrow in the chest, has the crooked legs and somewhat flat feet from the rickets and confinement.

Drako's page: http://www.pawsnclaws.us/drako_ped.htm


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: I'm not as vocal on a forum for sure about the situation. But, I wan't all that "nice" 

Did you take a pipe to his head ?? Have his knees smashed with a sledge ?? ANY of the classics ?? At least the power drill to his feet. Right ??? : )


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: I'm not as vocal on a forum for sure about the situation. But, I wan't all that "nice"
> 
> Did you take a pipe to his head ?? Have his knees smashed with a sledge ?? ANY of the classics ?? At least the power drill to his feet. Right ??? : )


You can't bait me to talk on that subject


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Yes, yes I can. I think it should be legal for a breeder to beat someone like this with a lead pipe.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nat...18_months_in_prison_for_starving_his_dog.html

The dog had plant matter in his stomach.

Are you kidding me ? Scumbags want guarantees ? Prove your worth it, and maybe. 

That cop is lucky it was not one of mine. I would blow torch his feet. Let him feel pain the rest of his ****ing life.


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Read that story yesterday as a fb friend posted the link. HORRIBLE!

Pix of the starved mal.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I have been hungry. Not sorta or kinda, but truly hungry. 

I would hurt that guy without hesitation. Yes, yes, I would go to jail you do something like that to a dog that I bred.

I may cull and what not, but no way that guy would go through life unscathed. I want to hit him with a pipe as it is. Then you see this same thing over and over and over on this and that channel and you hear of the scumbag that allowed all those dogs that were not even his to starve to death in his care.

Yeah, I got a guarantee for you.


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Here's a pix of a young Beauceron female that I received back from a different "trainer". I'll say I've gotten dogs back in worse condition overall from "trainers" rather than pet folks.


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

here's the pix


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I have been hungry. Not sorta or kinda, but truly hungry.
> 
> I would hurt that guy without hesitation. Yes, yes, I would go to jail you do something like that to a dog that I bred.
> 
> ...


If you breed dogs for any length of time, this will happen to a dog you've bred or sold. Probably has and you just never heard about it sad to say. There are bad people out there and some are very good at hiding their true character. I've talked to many breeders of various dog breeds, and other animals and most of us have these stories and we all screen and do our best to put our animals in good homes.


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## Chris Jones II (Mar 20, 2011)

@ Jeff

As I said, no we did not keep the "wrong" dogs, they took the long dirt nap.

I can respect what you wrote. It seems like at the very least you are honest about the shit you breed and expect an educated consumer. However, again, we have had a lot of dogs come through as pups and about these fear periods; a stable dog is just going to be able to deal with what gets thrown at him, excessive and abusive BS extremes aside. You can't mess up a good dog that easily!! Most pet owners, (and yes most of us on here are pet owners no matter how hard you think your dog from hell is,) are not out there doing that kind of sadistic stupid garbagio to the dogs they buy. We always treat our dogs like family. They contribute and they get a fresh chicken and a warm place to lay their heads. 

I'm going to meet a local guy about a shitter dog tomorrow. He has a gorgeous Mal bitch he wants me to see as an example of a genetic fear-biter. From the uneditted videos he's shown me of the dog a year ago this dog is truly a wackjob but also trained out her hoohoo. He has two other Mals both younger adolescents purchased at 9 weeks and 3 pitt bulls for comparison. It will be cool to see both ends of the spectrum in one place.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

It has happened, and it was long ago, and I don't talk about it. I remember what happened to those people. Bad things happen to people all the time.

I am sure there were some that I missed, just like you and every other breeder doesn't get all the info.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

No, it is not easy to mess up a dog, however, many do in spite of that. 

By definition people who have animals are pet owners.

Then there are the many who have really nice dogs and do nothing with them, won't sell them, won't breed them, and then wonder why the US cannot produce like EU. LOL

This is a country of collectors.


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> No, it is not easy to mess up a dog, however, many do in spite of that.
> 
> By definition people who have animals are pet owners.
> 
> ...


I know you jest However..for fun I ask..

So my chickens, rabbits, sheep are pets? I don't put pets on the bbq :-D

I believe the US can and does produce just as good as Europe and just a badly as well.

"don't do anything with them".. how do you define this?

"collector" so if you or I own a few great cars, dogs and a horses and don't let anyone else drive, use or ride, but have them for our pleasure..is that wrong? 

btw, I don't let people eat off my plate either.


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Watching hbo together is that doing nothing?


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Dog is delicious on the barbque. 

Quote: 
I believe the US can and does produce just as good as Europe and just a badly as well.

Ok, where are all the dogs ?

Quote: "collector" so if you or I own a few great cars, dogs and a horses and don't let anyone else drive, use or ride, but have them for our pleasure..is that wrong?

We have been bringing in dogs for how long, and you are right, people buy them just to have them. That way they can be the expert, that way they can be the big shot. LOL How is that working out for us ?


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Dog is delicious on the barbque.
> 
> Quote:
> I believe the US can and does produce just as good as Europe and just a badly as well.
> ...


I think part of the problem is the size of our country combined with the smallness of the working dog community. I don't know the answer, I think there's problems to find good malinois in Europe too..more so than 10-15 years ago. There is more demand now worldwide.

A couple things that I've experienced in 20 years is that it is a "hassle" to stud a dog out for several reasons and many people do not want to do it. As a breeder, I've stood dogs for stud for about 20 yrs and dealt with the usual things such as loss of time, sometimes helping with transporting the female, dealing with breeders misrepresenting their females attributes, a lot of time on the phone, the "blame game" if there are no pups or the pups aren't "all that" and helping to promote the litter, worrying if the pups are in good homes, etc. Again all part of it. 

However, I've experienced several times that when I was interested in using a stud dog by breeder(s) then suddenly the "dog is not available"..
sometimes there isn't enough reciprication imo. 

I don't think the average owner would want to stud their dog. However, it would be good if more breeders worked together. I've always offered dogs at stud and continue to. Actually have stud dog page on my site. The only dog at the moment that I own that isn't is D'Only and he just turned 2 years old and I wanted to see what he'd throw first. Bexter was just used last week. Dexter used last month in France as well.

I personally like what I'm producing in mals now better than 10 years ago.

Do you think the Malinois quality is going down in the USA? 

Or do you mean other breeds? For sure the Beaucerons are "lost" here and in Europe as a working dog. 20 years ago I could import half a dozen fr titled Beauces if I wanted to each year..now normally I don't find one good one for sale each year..actually it's been "zero" for several years now and they are using a couple of my dogs. That shows desperation in the breed as I don't have the "answer" for fixing the beauceron for sure...just a couple ideas.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

The size of our country, and the lack of cooperation definately make it interesting. 

People need to be a bit more autonomous when it comes to breeding. 

I also wonder, that right now, there is a good percentage of stronger dogs going to US agencies.

I know it is a hassle to go get a bitch from the airport, then hope she is nice to you, which most of the time, way back when, I had no problems. But too many people just buy a great stud dog, breed it to their own dogs, and everyone else can take a flying leap.

People that are new, look at the dogs that are competing and then, because they are over all not that strong, have a better opinion of their own dogs. LOL What I see many times, is good training, and average dogs when I go and compete. Buko does not help out the cause for a stronger dog, as he likes to go buck wild. LOL

I do think that we have sort of hit a plateau, the dogs are at least this good, and that is it. I see a lot of training problems as well, but almost everyone is in the same deep dark cavern when it comes to decoys and what not. 

The odd breeds I think are screwed. 

I don't think we are going down in quality, as much as we are not getting better. I would love to see the US produce a dog that everyone is saying, Damn, I need to get a breeding off of that dog. Instead, we import the next one. HA HA

It is hard, as so many people just have a lessor definition of drives than what I do.


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> .....I also wonder, that right now, there is a good percentage of stronger dogs going to US agencies....
> 
> I know it is a hassle to go get a bitch from the airport, then hope she is nice to you, which most of the time, way back when, I had no problems. But too many people just buy a great stud dog, breed it to their own dogs, and everyone else can take a flying leap........


Of course a lot of the harder dogs go to agencies. I can tell you why. I've sold puppies and they came back because "too hard" or change of circumstance for the owner (moving, job loss..). I work the young adult a bit (and never get bit by the dog). Then I try and try and try to place it in a sport home...well, comes back..too hard..won't play with the kids and uses the "yorkie" as a chew toy, etc, etc. Then I throw up my hands and sell the dog for double to an agency that appreciates the dog. No more headaches and long conversations on why after a few days of ownership if you hammer on the dog, he bites, etc.. Downside is that the genetics go into the "abyss". If I didn't spend all my $$ on "fixing teeth" haha, I'd collect on the different dogs before hand..but, then again my luck has been mostly bad when trying a.i. breedings so there you go.

Going to the airport such as LAX is a pain in the *ss and not just a hassle...way beyond. It takes Ron 3 1/2 hours to get home from there on a Friday night. For me, the owner of the bitch can get it to me. I sure can get on a plane with my female and rent a car on the other end and get to the stud dog so I think it's possible for others. 

I don't just want drive but character too because w/o both they can't do a real job such as police work.

Who is doing that? Where is the great stud dog that is not available here in the States? If it's really great I'll go and see if they'll change their minds...given it's a mal or a beauce.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

The real question is where is the great stud dog ? : )

Van den Huevel is a closed kennel, Barriques was closed, and then there are the kennels that I have called that if the bitch isn't plated in gold................

It has been a while since I looked at kennels, most of the time, they have nothing I would want to breed to, or if they have something I would like to buy, when given more information, the dog has thresholds that I don't like.

Look at the 7 people here that actually show video of their dogs working. Not many are out there that have enough faith in their dog to show it's work, or, more likely, they know that the dog is just training, and not really that strong.

Who do you look at to breed to here in the states ??


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> The real question is where is the great stud dog ? : )
> 
> Van den Huevel is a closed kennel, Barriques was closed, and then there are the kennels that I have called that if the bitch isn't plated in gold................
> 
> ...


Last week asked the owner of Nierlenders Carl and was told he wasn't standing at stud. I don't know why. He's used my dog before, but it could be that he has an agreement with the original owner or something and the dog is older. I really liked a NVBK police k9 (cat 2) Muizenbos (sp?), but the dog had no libido (that was a couple years back). I know, Stephanie's dog wasn't when I asked, but she wanted to see what he threw before standing him and maybe is now. When she wanted to use Bexter, I said yes. Ahh..yes, Barrique's were not available when I asked a few years back. Mike Ellis makes his dogs available if I would need to use one of them. He's used my dogs a few times and good to work with. Master was available inbetween trialing and they were good to work with. The trainer and owner are very busy so a person would have to be responsible for their own female, transportantion, but this is normal. I'm planning to use Dexter on my double Saida (Zodt) this next year when he comes back from France. Also, I have friends looking hard for an exceptional dog for working and breeding and this will be an option for the future. A friend has a really nice ipo male import but older and we may use him for a breeding pending fertility check. Nice dog and nice producer in Europe.

Some people get frustrated with me because I don't sell female pups for breeding at this time. However, I'm holding 1-2 back with friends from the couple litters I produce each year. It's important for a breeder to keep and evaluate dogs for the future and that's what I've been doing as the foundation is in the females. 

Being a breeder of cats, I'm used to closed catteries as that's pretty standard for fear of disease:-&. But, it's much rarer with breeders of dogs. Again it does involve extra work and responsibility, headache for the stud owner.

had to google the first kennel you mentioned..gsd..that's why I didn't recognize it. They have a big stud dog page. Maybe I missed it, but I don't see that they don't offer their dogs for breeding?

Right now, with Ron working out of the area during the week, it would be hard to go "above and beyond" and cater to bitch owners that want me to house, breed, transport. Bexter is at Tim Welch's and he has another trainer working with him as well and so the dog is available.

I wasn't able to come up with much of a list really, but I think that's because everyone is so spread out and there are dogs around that are available and I just don't know about them.


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## Petra Dabezic (May 23, 2011)

Maybe some of the nice ones are hiding in plain sight. Who wants to breed to Fido from California (for 3 paternal generations already) when you can draw more attention with Rex du Recént Impört?


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Petra Dabezic said:


> Maybe some of the nice ones are hiding in plain sight. Who wants to breed to Fido from California (for 3 paternal generations already) when you can draw more attention with Rex du Recént Impört?


Agree on that one as I have a ton more inquiries about my Belg import Dexter than his California born sons. With the sons, there is so much more information such as being able to see the sibs and 1/2 sibs and so on. But, there is that lure of "import" always. I especially had more interest when I exported him back to France to be titled...guess when he comes back he's a double import or is it triple.. :lol:


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

My mal litter combos 

Dexter x Orly 2006 ** import stud used **

Dexter x Saida 2006 ** import stud used **
(see bottom of Saida page)
Dexter x Orly 2006 ** import stud used **

Bexter x Saida 2007 ** CA stud used **

Blitz x Breeze 2008 (singleton) ** CA stud used **
D'Une des Ombres Valeureux

Blitz x Breeze 2009 ** CA stud used **

Master x Saida 2009 (singleton) ** import stud used **
D'Only des Ombres Valeureux

Master x Saida 2009 ** import stud used **

D'Only x Cadence 2010	** CA stud used **

D'Only x Bambi 2010 ** CA stud used **

D'Only x Cadence 2011 ** CA stud used **

I like the CA boys! :-\"


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