# Malinois, Belgian Ring & Conformation...trying once again



## Chris Daleo (Apr 22, 2010)

I had originally posted in conflict-free and got 2 replies, 1 which was mine. Maybe I'll get more here. I am hoping some Malinois folks can shed some light for me thanks!

Fairly new to forum, brand new to *Malinois* & the Ringsports. Wanted some feedback on a few observations. My import, Jaakan van de Haantjeshoek is just 5 months and progressing really well in obedience and bitework for BR. My background was Rottweilers & Schutzhund, which I still love, but the drive, intelligence and desire to please is something I've not seen before to this degree in the breed.

Curious as to why there are not more imports directly from Belgium? Is it similar to as I have heard with GSD, better working lines have been coming out of Czechoslavakia & Eastern Europe?

Somewhat understand the NVBK vs St. Huberts schism. Though does not seem to be as extreme as say the USRC where working & conformation are equally important as they follow ADRK style & ARC which is purely conformational or AKC type obedience. Conformationally, there is a huge difference as well. I don't see it as much in Mals. But I guess I am too much of a novice. Why isn't there more of an emphasis on balance of work/conformation?

Further is there a breed suitability test under any of the Ringsports, similar to Ztp, where temperament, demeanor, protection, hips & elbows & conformation are evaluated by judge?

Also curious as to why Belgian Ring isnt more popular in the states. It seems FR, then MR is gaining the most popularity, but none meet the level of SchH? I hope that can change. But as I have seen from some of the posts here, the politics, egos and personal attacks are prevalent as ever in dog world. My philosophy is "shut up & train, work with what you got, learn as much as you can and keep an open mind". Thanks in advance for your responses.


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Chris Daleo said:


> Curious as to why there are not more imports directly from Belgium? Is it similar to as I have heard with GSD, better working lines have been coming out of Czechoslavakia & Eastern Europe?


Hi Chris:
I know there are people on here with more experience importing Mals than me, so hopefully they'll speak up. One of my Mals is from the Czech republic, born in Czech but purchased from a Slovakian broker. For me, it was just a choice of company more or less, not necessarily because better working lines were to be found there. I had an "in" with the broker and figured I had a good chance of getting exactly what I wanted. Here's the dog's pedigree - same lines/names as you might find elsewhere in Europe:
http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/120590/Ernny Mi-Ji/



> Also curious as to why Belgian Ring isnt more popular in the states. It seems FR, then MR is gaining the most popularity, but none meet the level of SchH? I hope that can change. But as I have seen from some of the posts here, the politics, egos and personal attacks are prevalent as ever in dog world. My philosophy is "shut up & train, work with what you got, learn as much as you can and keep an open mind". Thanks in advance for your responses.


Where do you train for BR?


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## Chris Daleo (Apr 22, 2010)

Hi Konnie, my statement was misleading. I had heard there were better working lines of GSD in Czech/East EUR compared to GER and wondered if the same applied to Mals. If in general there are better Mal working lines outside of Belgium i.e., Netherlands, USA,or elsewhere etc.

I train with a club in Shohola PA. They trained with an NVBK guy originally from Belgium when they lived down in Brooklyn. He has since passed and the remaining club members moved from BK to PA.

When I was researching the sport and the breed, I met a club from Waterbury CT, who trains FR. They are very active and if not for being 2hrs from me, I would have joined. I like my club and the members. However, my concern with BR is there is nowhere to trial in the states. Perhaps I'm wrong, but from what I have seen, there is little to no mention of BR in this forum. My dog is 5 months and I have a way to go. But to put a year training BR and then have nowhere to trial seems counterintuitive. Although I am having fun and so is my dog. Maybe I travel to Belgium then


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Chris Daleo said:


> When I was researching the sport and the breed, I met a club from Waterbury CT, who trains FR. They are very active and if not for being 2hrs from me, I would have joined.


This is the club I belong to. You're welcome to come for a visit any time.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Chris Daleo said:


> Curious as to why there are not more imports directly from Belgium?


There are actually a lot of people that import dogs from Belgium. There are also people that import NVBK lines via France. For example, a couple of my dogs are French imports, but are Belgian lines. There are also people though that prefer the French lines or the KNPV dogs, so you'll see a lot of importing from those countries to. But there are also many lines already here in the US. So if someone wants a pup from a certain bloodline, if they are just looking for that line and not a pup from a specific dog from that line, they can find it right here in the US and skip the hassles of importing. They can also see the parents of their pup more easily, and many times (not always) if there is a problem with the dog it's easier to deal with contract gaurantees if the person is in the same country.



> Is it similar to as I have heard with GSD, better working lines have been coming out of Czechoslavakia & Eastern Europe?


IMO the best Malinois in Europe come from France, Belgium and Holland. That doesn't mean you won't find good ones in Czechoslavakia, Germany, etc but the foundation of the breed is in the 3 countries I mentioned/



> Somewhat understand the NVBK vs St. Huberts schism. Though does not seem to be as extreme as say the USRC where working & conformation are equally important as they follow ADRK style & ARC which is purely conformational or AKC type obedience. Conformationally, there is a huge difference as well. I don't see it as much in Mals. But I guess I am too much of a novice. Why isn't there more of an emphasis on balance of work/conformation?


I'm not sure I understand your question. You mention that you don't see as much difference in Malinois as you do in say Rotts, but then ask why their isn't more of an emphasis on the balance of work/conformation? Look at the breeds who do proclaim to have an emphasis on the balance of work and conformation. The Rott, GSD, etc Or more recently the Border Collie. There is a huge difference between their showline and their working line. Has that focus really helped the breeds in terms of being a working dog? For the most part, in Malinois the focus is still on the working end of things. It's like the working BC, they are all bred for work, but they are all recognizable as BC's to. The working Malinois is bred for work, and for the most part is recognizable as a Malinois. There is a focus in the Malinois on conformation, but it's not conformation as defined by the show ring. It's conformation as defined by the work. The structure neccessary to be an excellent working dog. 



> Further is there a breed suitability test under any of the Ringsports, similar to Ztp, where temperament, demeanor, protection, hips & elbows & conformation are evaluated by judge?


There is a Korung for the Malinois, that is done in Germany. That is the only BST type test that I'm aware of. There has been talk of one being created in the US by the AWMA, but it has never gone past the talking stage that I'm aware of. 



> Also curious as to why Belgian Ring isnt more popular in the states. It seems FR, then MR is gaining the most popularity, but none meet the level of SchH? I hope that can change.


Schutzhund was here first, and really got a foothold in this country. Plus its a GSD sport, and the GSD, Rott, Dobe, etc were popular in the US long before the Malinois gained a foothold, and are still WAY more popular. Schutzhund is still the biggest in part because it's so much more accessible. I live in an area that is fairly strong for Ring, and there are still only 3 clubs within a 2 hour drive of me, and at least 15 Schutzhund clubs. The Ringsports are open to all breeds, but the reality is that Schutzhund is still more "friendly" to the GSD, Rott, Dobe, etc which are MUCH larger breeds then the Malinois. AKC hasn't published the numbers the last couple years, at least not that I can find, but there were around 1000 Malinois registered per year last time they did. Compared to over 20,000 GSD. I don't thinik the Ringsports will ever be as popular in the US as Schutzhund, they may grow, but they won't overtake Schutzhund.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Chris Daleo said:


> Curious as to why there are not more imports directly from Belgium?


I don't buy from Belgium because I can find dogs that I like right here in the US. Why would I spend $1500 more? 





> Is it similar to as I have heard with GSD, better working lines have been coming out of Czechoslavakia & Eastern Europe?


What is "better"? I don't see the eastern Europeans doing much winning in any sport. 


> Why isn't there more of an emphasis on balance of work/conformation?


Because form follows function. And another word for "balance" is compromise, and I don't want a dog that was bred for anything but the work. 



> Further is there a breed suitability test under any of the Ringsports, similar to Ztp, where temperament, demeanor, protection, hips & elbows & conformation are evaluated by judge?


Not that I know of, but there is the DMC korung. They will do it in a suit if requested. 



> Also curious as to why Belgian Ring isnt more popular in the states. It seems FR, then MR is gaining the most popularity, but none meet the level of SchH?


BR is never going to be a big sport in the US, IMO. Schutzhund has to much of a head start and is breed requirement for the German breeds. BR is also a dog sport that is only really accessible to the Malinois because other breeds can't do it very easily. 



> But as I have seen from some of the posts here, the politics, egos and personal attacks are prevalent as ever in dog world.


Of course! Everywhere you have people you have that stuff. Why should dog sport be any different? You might as well ask people to stop breathing.


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## Chris Daleo (Apr 22, 2010)

I'm not sure I understand your question. You mention that you don't see as much difference in Malinois as you do in say Rotts, but then ask why their isn't more of an emphasis on the balance of work/conformation? 

Thanks Kadi. What I meant was I see/have seen a huge difference in both working ability and conformation to with Rotts registered in the USRC and for that matter ARV which follow ADRK standards compared with ARC which follows AKC standards. Preferring the ADRK standards myself. I have noticed, as well you point out with GSD's as well. In my novice opinion haven't seen as much of a visible difference between FCI vs. NVBK Malinois. I am speaking more working ability, as it doesn't appear either has as much of an emphasis on conformation. But is the general sentiment of working dog folks that FCI is comparable AKC showlines and NVBK is more work oriented? I am saying I don't see that in my limited experience.


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## David Ruby (Jul 21, 2009)

This might be kind of relevant and a bit helpful. I just watched the links not long ago, but Michael Ellis describes the differences in the various dog sports and the dogs they help develop. It sounds like Mondio Ring is kind of a compromise between Belgian and French Ring. Which might help you in that you could maybe crosstrain easier (e.g. train/support Belgian Ring, which sounds like a lot of fun, but also train toward a Mondio or French Ring title as well), if you were so inclined.

Anyway, here are the links to the forum topics alongside the free Leerburg-hosted videos on Youtube.:

Michael Ellis on Belgian Ring:
http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f30/michael-ellis-bel-ring-their-dogs-15401/

Michael Ellis on Mondio Ring:
http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f30/mike-ellis-mondio-ring-ring-15402/

I _thought_ there was one for SchH/IPO and one for French Ring, but I couldn't find them, and there is a two-parter on KNPV (the dogs and the sport). I think any of them would be here if anywhere:
http://www.youtube.com/user/leerburg

If nothing else, it might be of interest to you, help explain the lack of strict confirmation between the lines, and why that might not be such a bad thing. It was fun & interesting to me to hear the explanations and the what's and why's behind the sports and the dogs.

-Cheers


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## Chris Daleo (Apr 22, 2010)

Granted, you could find the lines you want in the US and it is easier than traveling or relying on internet or video from another country. BTW I inquired about a litter of de Barriques as well during my quest, I had heard good things about the kennel, but never got a call back.

I see your point regarding BR, but why does FR & MR seem infinitely more popular? Isn't MR supposed to be the most difficult dog sport? and is BR that difficult that only Malinois can do it?

I disagree with balance being another word for compromise. Balance is balance...yin-yang. Your preference for a dog bred only for work is your preference and thats cool. I would agree that form could follow function. I guess coming from USRC world, albeit 7+yrs ago (when tails were still docked), the goal, at times obfuscated by egos and BS as I pointed out, was to always strive for balance of form & function. Hence the BST, conformation & working trials. I purchased my dog with the notion of working with him and enjoying him. If some one wants to breed to him, because he works well and his hips/elbows are clear, I would like to know that he conforms to the breed standard physically as well. I'm not talking a show dog, simply conformation to the breed standard by whatever recognized authority we choose to follow. Should work come first? Yes. Thanks.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Chris Daleo said:


> But is the general sentiment of working dog folks that FCI is comparable AKC showlines and NVBK is more work oriented?


No, that's not the general sentiment. Which is probably why you are confused. To compete in FR in France a dog has to have an FCI pedigee. Same for competing at the higher levels (national/worlds) in Schutzhund in most countries. For BR (NVBK style) an FCI pedigree isn't required. 

There is also less of a division between the NVBK Malinois and the FCI Malinois then you may think, since NVBK dogs find their way into FCI pedigrees on a regular basis.



> I see your point regarding BR, but why does FR & MR seem infinitely more popular?


Because they were here first. There are a limited number of people in the US interested in the protection sports. Each year some leave, and some new ones come into the sport. But the overall numbers stay the same, or are actually declining. With some fluctuation between the sports themselves with people leaving one sport to go play in another. And that's the people doing the sports, the number of people in that group willing and able to start new clubs, introduce a new sport, etc are even smaller. Getting a foothold in the US for a new sport is very difficult.



> Isn't MR supposed to be the most difficult dog sport? and is BR that difficult that only Malinois can do it?


Depends on who you talk to LOL Personally I think FR is more difficult then MR. But many MR people will tell you that their sport is more difficult  And BR people will probably tell you their's is the hardest sport. Each tests for many of the same qualities, but each also tests for some different qualities then the other. If your dog is missing a quality the sport specifically tests for, then that sport is going to be the hardest, at least for that dog.

The Malinois has been tailored around the Ringsports, the same way the GSD and other German breeds have been tailored around Schutzhund. It's not that other breeds can't, but it is more difficult for them.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Chris Daleo said:


> I disagree with balance being another word for compromise. Balance is balance...yin-yang.


Balance is definitely compromise. You have to compromise in one area, to gain in another, to achieve the balance. Compromise is not a dirty word, working only breedings can involve compromises also (using a dog with good but not great grips because it has exceptional character, drives, etc, using a dog with good but not exceptional stucture because he's got the grips, character, drives, etc)
But when people are using a dog with good but not great grips because he's got little ears with the perfect earset, dark pigment, the right eye color, etc compromise can become a dirty word, at least from a working standpoint.



> I would like to know that he conforms to the breed standard physically as well. I'm not talking a show dog, simply conformation to the breed standard by whatever recognized authority we choose to follow.


The majority of working Malinois do conform to the breed standard. They may not look like the show dogs, but they do conform to the standard. Maybe not perfectly, no dog is without faults, but they aren't DQ'd.

I think part of your confusion on the Malinois stems from you coming from Rotts. Not just another breed, but a German breed. The German's have a very different system for evaluating their dogs then the French, Belgians, and Dutch. And the Malinois primarly come from those other countries. The German Malinois do work within a system that is closer to what you are used to. But the German Malinos aren't what most people think of when they think "Malinois".


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## David Ruby (Jul 21, 2009)

Chris Daleo said:


> If some one wants to breed to him, because he works well and his hips/elbows are clear, I would like to know that he conforms to the breed standard physically as well. I'm not talking a show dog, simply conformation to the breed standard by whatever recognized authority we choose to follow. Should work come first? Yes. Thanks.


The problem with that would seem to be two-fold.

First, isn't the breed standard something put in place to maintain the dog more-or-less as the vision of their peak? Really, in a working dog the test (sport, hunting, Iditarod, police work, etc.) kind of _is_ that standard. If it can do the work, it's breed-appropriate. I don't even own a Malinois, but some BS kennel club enforced standard seems like a travesty. I really don't believe in some "recognized authority" in stuff like this so much as a breeder whose dogs of whatever breed are healthy and able to perform whatever job I need them to.

Second, where is the balance between form and function that would not exist by just letting the function determine the form? If we start looking at form-first, we end up with the Showline German Shepherd, English Bulldog, "Pit Bulls" that look like they've been over-inflated, and just an assumption they can be healthy workers like their forefathers because they meet some standard. The notion we need to homogenize animals into some strict uniform appearance seems largely counter-productive. Unless you are referring to a balance of different abilities (e.g. strength, speed, agility, endurance, bite, etc., etc.).

However, what would be your take if your dog is a world beater, great worker, awesome temperament, etc., etc., but has some less-than ideal confirmation issue that would not ever effect anything in the real world but would kill him in a dog show? I am just curious where your parameters lie, not trying to attack them even if I do disagree with them.

-Cheers


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## Chris Daleo (Apr 22, 2010)

Agreed, ADRK style of evaluation is vastly different than French, Belgian, etc. Come on; BMW, Mercedes, Audi; Germans might know something about engineering and grading quality. I know apples & oranges...just being goofy. I'd appreciate any links to Belgian or French evaluation metrics.
So in my pea brain, let's say you have an import Rott pup from out of von Burgthann or Schwaiger Wappen lines or any good old working German lines. You are a USRC member and begin showing the dog all over the US. The dog consistently is V(vorzuglich/excellent) rated in early conformation shows. It begins foundation training for SchH and shows great prey drive, fearlessness, pure joy of the work. The dog matures,excels and continues placing V-1, V-2 in youth and then adult conformation shows. In the meantime he passes his BH, AD and BST under internationally recognized and sanctioned Kormeisters. He then starts scoring well under various SchH USA & DVG judges on the SchH field and scores high 90's in protection and obedience and becomes a consistent high performer on the tracking field able to go for his FH. He is Xrayed and happens to be OFA good in hips/elbows, IMO this a balanced dog, there is no compromise because the genetics and the envrionment have contributed & the breed standards in place for both work & conformation put forth by the ADRK and followed by the USRC helped come to this balance. Curious as to why it seems that you can't have both in Mals, or it is perceived a compromise. I like the work, I want the dog to work. I don't want to see them go the way of most GSD & Rotts in AKC show lines. Their function was established and the form followed, they defined it and tried to keep to its standard, but function faded. I understand its like having a Ferrari with a 4 cylinder in it & some may rather have the beater with the v-12 twin turbo under the hood. I guess its preference. For me I guess I like to have my cake and eat it too.
To Davids point, should this dog have a slight break in the croup, or his eye color is b3 vs. b2, causing him to now be rated SG (sehr gut/very good) instead of V, but still put helpers on their asses...I would breed him. So for a guy like Chris who is interested in the work, wouldn't care if he is SG and would still breed. But maybe some ARC member who is interested in bringing more working lines into their breeding program would pass on breeding with the SG dog with high working scores and go for the opposite. However, if it was a DQ conformational fault or hips/elbows were bad, no matter how good the work was, I would not breed him. 
Re: form follows function. If the form is the standard based on what the function determined, so be it, thats fine. I'm saying just make it the standard and follow it. Thanks for all the responses this time.


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## David Ruby (Jul 21, 2009)

Chris Daleo said:


> Agreed, ADRK style of evaluation is vastly different than French, Belgian, etc. Come on; BMW, Mercedes, Audi; Germans might know something about engineering and grading quality. I know apples & oranges...just being goofy. I'd appreciate any links to Belgian or French evaluation metrics.


Touche'! We can all appreciate goofy.

As for Belgian & French equivalents . . . They both have arguably better beer, Belgian beer is the best, the food's a toss up (all three are great), and France is known for its wine although German Gewurztraminer is one of my favorites. Oh . . . You meant for dogs didn't you? #-o



> Their function was established and the form followed, they defined it and tried to keep to its standard, but function faded. I understand its like having a Ferrari with a 4 cylinder in it & some may rather have the beater with the v-12 twin turbo under the hood. I guess its preference. For me I guess I like to have my cake and eat it too.


Yeah, in this case I'd rather have, maybe not a beater, but the V-12 Twin Turbo and the outside (spotless cherry finish or non-descript sleeper) really isn't as important. Of course, if the wheels are falling off . . .



> To Davids point, should this dog have a slight break in the croup, or his eye color is b3 vs. b2, causing him to now be rated SG (sehr gut/very good) instead of V, but still put helpers on their asses...I would breed him. So for a guy like Chris who is interested in the work, wouldn't care if he is SG and would still breed. But maybe some ARC member who is interested in bringing more working lines into their breeding program would pass on breeding with the SG dog with high working scores and go for the opposite. However, if it was a DQ conformational fault or hips/elbows were bad, no matter how good the work was, I would not breed him.
> Re: form follows function. If the form is the standard based on what the function determined, so be it, thats fine. I'm saying just make it the standard and follow it. Thanks for all the responses this time.


I guess I view it a little differently. I can see the form being standardized to the extent that some things will predict longevity (e.g. how the feet are formed or the body shape), and generally might be accepted on. As far as confirmation faults, I am much more inclined to be less picky as a dog buyer (I am not a dog breeder though). Bad hips & elbows and the like fall in my mind more in the health spectrum rather than confirmation. However, something like a floppy ear or too much of a certain color or slightly too large or small, or even a dog that just looked "ugly" but otherwise exemplified the breed and its job or niche? I can deal with that. I'm also more of a Bulldog guy, and the whole confirmation thing really kills you there. You also get stuff like roach-backed German Shepherds and confirmation guys swearing they totally meet the standards, and I suppose they do. That said, if I'm going to err I'd rather err on the function and health side of things, so I'll genuinely take a healthy ugly dog over a conformationally correct one all else being equal.

Nothing against pretty dogs, but I've just grown up around mutts and gotten sick of people abiding by confirmation and erring on the side of what's prettier or more impressive and ignoring the spirit in which were written in. If you have a dog with both, great. I just don't prioritize a dog as being better based on confirmation. Maybe I just like ugly dogs.  It _is_ pretty sad to hear breeders say they have people decline on a working dog that is a better dog in every way because they think another dog is prettier looking despite that having nothing to do with the purpose behind the breed and seem to be purely aesthetic.

-Cheers


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Chris Daleo said:


> So in my pea brain, let's say you have an import Rott pup from out of von Burgthann or Schwaiger Wappen lines or any good old working German lines. You are a USRC member and begin showing the dog all over the US. The dog consistently is V(vorzuglich/excellent) rated in early conformation shows. It begins foundation training for SchH and shows great prey drive, fearlessness, pure joy of the work. The dog matures,excels and continues placing V-1, V-2 in youth and then adult conformation shows. In the meantime he passes his BH, AD and BST under internationally recognized and sanctioned Kormeisters. He then starts scoring well under various SchH USA & DVG judges on the SchH field and scores high 90's in protection and obedience and becomes a consistent high performer on the tracking field able to go for his FH. He is Xrayed and happens to be OFA good in hips/elbows, IMO this a balanced dog, there is no compromise because the genetics and the envrionment have contributed & the breed standards in place for both work & conformation put forth by the ADRK and followed by the USRC helped come to this balance.


First, how many of these Rott's exist? Is this the norm for the breed, or is this the exception to the norm? If it's the exception to the norm, why is that? If breeding to the criteria the Rott breeders are using only occasionally produces dogs like you describe, then how successful are those criteria in maintaining the breed? 

Now, I want the dog to not just excel in Schutzhund, but since we are actually talking about Malinois I want the dog to also excel in one or more of the Ringsports. Are these criteria producing dogs that can do that? Not just occasionally, since flukes are always possible. But on a consistent basis? How many Malinois, bred to the German standard, are out there excelling in Ringsports? Very few, if any. And the ones I'm aware of (doing well, but not world winners) are only 1-2 generations from Ringsport breedings, they aren't many generations deep of breeding on the German criteria. If the German style of breeding starts to produce Malinois that can still excel in the Ringsports, after many generations of German criteria breeding, then it might be worth re-evaluating that program's ability to work.



> Curious as to why it seems that you can't have both in Mals, or it is perceived a compromise.


I think you can, on a small scale. In that there are working dogs who are also very pretty. But you have to have the option to compromise, and that is where some of these criteria won't work. If every dog you use for breeding must meet the type of criteria you outlined above, it's been proven in other breeds that the overall working quality of the breed will suffer. Because it's the working quality, that not as obvious as eye color, ear set, pigment, etc criteria, that will be compromised on. 

Look at some of the big name stud dogs in the history of the Malinois. How many of them fit the "picture" that the conformation world, the world that gives V1 ratings, has in mind? Very very few, if any. So let's toss those stud dogs out of the gene pool, they never should have been bred because they wouldn't get a V1, V2, etc conformation rating. Some of them wouldn't have even gotten an SG. Now where is the breed at? 



> I like the work, I want the dog to work.


And now you have a Malinois. Why not another Rott? If you can find the type of dog for the work in the Rott world that you want, why get a Malinois? Unless you can't find the type of dog you want? And if you can't, why can't you?



> I don't want to see them go the way of most GSD & Rotts in AKC show lines. Their function was established and the form followed, they defined it and tried to keep to its standard, but function faded.


Implementing German standards for breeding will not keep the Malinois from going "the way of most GSD & Rotts in AKC show lines". Continuing to breed the Malinois based on working criteria will.

I like a good Rott, GSD, Dobe, Boxer, etc. Actually I LOVE a good Dobe or Boxer  But look at what those breeds have become. Just for sake of discussion lets throw out any dogs bred outside of the German standards. The German show dogs are bred to the German standard, how are they as working dogs? In the working world they breed dogs to the German standard, but people are also posting on a regular basis about having to find the right judge that will give a V rating to a working dog. Or using SG dogs for breeding, etc. So even when breeding within the criteria outlined for the breed, there is a lot of "wiggling" going on in each camp to try to meet those criteria. Midnight trials for show lines, handpicked judges to get conformation ratings on working lines, etc. 

And almost every person in each of those breeds that I talk to, talks about the difference between the working and show lines, the damage being done to the breed, etc. Yet this is a topic that rarely comes up in the Malinois.


Final thought, your new pup. I know some of the dogs in the pedigree, not personally but they are dogs I have researched, and your pup wouldn't exist if the German criteria for breeding had been applied to the breedings. Dogs without xrays, no titles, wouldn't go higher then SG in a conformation ring (if that), incorrect pedigrees, etc. If you want Malinois to be bred like Rott's, why did you purchase the pup you purchased?


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## Chris Daleo (Apr 22, 2010)

I have been out of Rottworld far too long to comment on the current state. However, when involved I would say that for most part quite a few did exist and for true working Rott fans, that was the goal. There are always exceptions, of course. As was the wiggling BS you mention as well. Believe me I have seen the dark side of Rott world as well and part of the reason I looked at another breed to answer your "Why a Malinois" questions. A huge amount of importing from good working German lines and the conformation was just there as I saw it, as well the working ability. Was there shitters? of course.
By no means am I saying the German way is the only way. Nor do I want Mals bred like Rotts. Perhaps it doesn't make sense at all. Just really curious why either the Belgians or the NVBK or whomever wouldn't implement something similar. I get it, work ability is foremost and I'm fine with that. Its not Rott world its Malinois world now. But at what point does one draw the line? I have seen some posts on here where there are Dutch/Mal crosses being bred. Is that just to get a super working dog for ringsport? What does that do to the respective breeds?
I don't want Mals to be bred like Rotts, thats a bit presumptuous. My question was a "WHY"? not a "This is the way it should be done." If it came across that way it wasn't my intent. From my experience in Rott world USRC/ADRK not ARC/AKC, for the most part form & function went hand in hand. Many former GSD folks who were tired of what happened to their breed got into Rotties and the USRC/ARDK just for that reason. Maybe now Rottie folks are getting into Mals for the same? Here's one.
I purchased my pup on my own, combination of timing, instinct and research on a number of kennels. Of course I was concerned and skeptical of foreign breeders who don't offer health guarantees and aren't as apt to xray dogs. I was impressed by the working lines produced out of the kennel and hopefully the dog works out and is healthy, so far so good. Only time will tell.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Chris Daleo said:


> I have seen some posts on here where there are Dutch/Mal crosses being bred. Is that just to get a super working dog for ringsport? What does that do to the respective breeds?


Most of the Dutch/Mal crosses are bred for KNPV, police, military and personal protection. Not many, at least of the fawn colored dogs, end up in Ringsport. I believe most of the brindle dogs in Ringsport in the US do come from KNPV lines. So the breedings are done to get a super working dog, but not for Ringsport. At least not the fawn dogs.

As to what it does to the respective breeds, IMO at least for the Malinois, nothing. Because I don't consider them to be Malinois, but a mix breed. It's not a popular opinion with some people, but if a GSD x Malinois isn't a Malinois, then I don't understand why a DS x Malinois would be, just because it's fawn with a black mask. There are lots of mix breeds (talking in general, not the DS/Mal crosses) out there that look like Malinois, doesn't mean they are.


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