# dna testing of working dogs



## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

lots of companies advertise they are able to provide a dna profile of breed mixes in your dog. i'm assuming some are legit and accurate in being able to list what breed composition you have.

... like for instance : 
were you curious what breeds are in your DS besides malinois .... or wanted to know what breeds are actually in your DP that your breeder might not be aware of ?

** fwiw my Q has nothing to do with doubting the credibility of reputable breeders

so....
1. anyone run a test on their dog to check what breed(s) they have ?? 
2. were you satisfied with the service ?

i'm curious whether or not you are a breeder or just an owner, so PM me if you have done such a test and don't want it posted publicly.

3. if you can comment on whether these tests are accurate when listing breed composition or just marketing hype, please base it on verifiable facts rather than opinion 

TIA


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

rick smith said:


> lots of companies advertise they are able to provide a dna profile of breed mixes in your dog. i'm assuming some are legit and accurate in being able to list what breed composition you have.


Breed, like race, is an artificial construct. There is no test that can determine the breed composition with any accuracy. There is a reason why all of those services require a picture of the dog. :wink:


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

I know a couple people that have had it done, one with a "purebred" dog and one with a hybrid.

both were inaccurate.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Snake Oil Salesman of the Year!


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## Robley Smith (Apr 20, 2012)

Everything I have heard or read says that they are very inaccurate in determining breed. They might be better at identification of a particular dog. I once read an article that talked about that in reference to finding out who's dog was pooing and not being picked up after..lol


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## Dana McMahan (Apr 5, 2006)

They are really inaccurate. Every client I have tells me some crazy combination of mixes they come up with. One dog came back as just "toy poodle" and it was a rescue dog but it looked like a purebred German Shepherd to me. When the client complained, the company requested a photo and then came up with German Shepherd. 

Another client said they did a DNA test and their dog was a "Brittany, Basenji, Rottweiler" mix. 

And I can't remember the exact breed but another was like a lab x female and it came back something really out there ... like "Labrador, Glen of Imaal Terrier" or some other really rare breed. I just can't imagine with how FEW of this rare breed there are in the country that it happened to have one hook up with a lab. 

I think their bogus personally.


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## Jami Craig (Jul 5, 2010)

My ACD of questionable lineage and I have won these at a few pet trick contests and for fun have taken quite a few of them (hey, they're free XD)


He's come back as....
100% Cattle Dog
Cattle Dog, Malinois, German Shepherd, Other
50% Cattle Dog, 50% Other
Cattle Dog, German Shepherd, Lab
German Shepherd, Cattle dog, bulldog
Chow, GSD, Akita

Dog in question...he's probably not purebred, but there's some serious inconsistencies there...
http://i790.photobucket.com/albums/yy189/Blitzava_Ryuk/IMG_4547.jpg

My AKC registered mal has come back as an akita as well XD


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## Marta Wajngarten (Jul 30, 2006)

Yup, majority of stories I have heard about these tests point to them being incredibly inaccurate and more of a money grab. 

That aside, most if not all of these companies don't even have a genetic profile listed for a Dutch Shepherd (they have to have a genetic profile of a breed cataloged in order to be able to recognize it as such and even then this is only as reliable as the size of the samples they collected to create that profile).... since you used that breed as an example


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Marta Wajngarten said:


> Yup, majority of stories I have heard about these tests point to them being incredibly inaccurate and more of a money grab.
> 
> That aside, most if not all of these companies don't even have a genetic profile listed for a Dutch Shepherd (they have to have a genetic profile of a breed cataloged in order to be able to recognize it as such and even then this is only as reliable as the size of the samples they collected to create that profile).... since you used that breed as an example


I imagine if they were to build a profile from 1000's of examples of various really really pure lines in each breed of dog, it could be done, but who knows how many dogs from each breed they use to consider a profile to be good enough..


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Joby Becker said:


> I know a couple people that have had it done, one with a "purebred" dog and one with a hybrid.
> 
> both were inaccurate.


I've talked with more then a couple of people that have had it done. All say the same thing.  "WTF"!


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## julie allen (Dec 24, 2010)

I have one ready to send on a dutch/mal. Wondering what it will show since they don't list ds on their breeds? 
(I didn't pay for this, a person wanting to prove the accuracy of known mixes asked me to do it)


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

DNA testing is OK to find out "who's your Daddy" but worthless for determining what breed a dog is.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

The Continental Kennel Club gave me a pedigree for my Dutch Shepherd for $10, a picture and two people saying "yup he's a Dutchie" ;-)


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## Amber Scott Dyer (Oct 30, 2006)

they're really good for people who are looking to prove their dog is not a pitbull or pit mix for insurance or liability purposes ----- 

because they never come back listed as pits. 

what kills me is that they always come back and tell you that there's a fairly rare breed in your standard mix - honestly, how many Kerry Blue Terriers are just running the street, indiscriminately siring litters?


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

All the Denver Animal Control Officers can tell a pit bull or pit bull mix by sight? :-(


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Thomas Barriano said:


> DNA testing is OK to find out "who's your Daddy" but worthless for determining what breed a dog is.



That's the only legit reason I've ever seen for it. It's not common but not completely uncommon any more to breed a bitch to two different studs. That's easier then waiting to breed to a different stud and having to wait for the bitch to come in season again.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

They'd have to have some pretty fancy equipment to even get close and you can still have two different breeds that carry the same DNA sequencing. http://genome.cshlp.org/content/15/12/1706.full
I don't think they have gotten very far in breaking it down further. If anyone has an update, I'd be interested in seeing it.

T


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Of the people who tested, how many used the Wisdom Panel by Mars, Inc.?

Terrasita


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## Karen M Wood (Jun 23, 2012)

I myself have not used any of them. I have American Bulldogs and know they have all sorts of stuff hiding in the wood pile. 
But when i worked for the vet several of our clients did these test. One i remember very well was a female dog who's mother was a lab and father was a pit bull terrier.
She came back Borzoi, Retriever, Yorkie, Pekanese, Hound. Now we know without a doubt who the parents were, because the lady was the owner of the accidental litter.
Personally from what test i've seen they are all bunk.
It's one thing to send DNA of the mother, potential fathers and the puppies to sort out who belongs to who. But a random sampling of dog DNA? I think it's about as accuriate as sticking your hand in a bottle full of dog breed name on little bits of paper and selecting two or three.

What ever happened to phenotyping? Because it never ceases to amaze me when i see dogs that i'm 100% of what they are and the owner tell me they are something completly different. Like pet shelters: anything with short black hair is a lab, because pit bulls do not get adopted. Any thing fluffy is a chow, anything black and tan is a shepherd. Or anything small is a Chia.
I agree that they are little more then fancy Snake oil salesman. And who need to oil snakes anyway?
K


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Karen M Wood said:


> I myself have not used any of them. I have American Bulldogs and know they have all sorts of stuff hiding in the wood pile.


Hi Karen

My late female AB (Cathbodua ABA registered) was a long hair
(one of two in the litter) Maybe a St Bernard in her wood pile?


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Hi Karen
> 
> My late female AB (Cathbodua ABA registered) was a long hair
> (one of two in the litter) Maybe a St Bernard in her wood pile?



Possibly a Rott in there. They have been known to throw a coated dog now and then.


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## Karen M Wood (Jun 23, 2012)

When i did rescue i placed a litter of longcoats from a breeder who were out of screaming eagle lines. I also know that Art Parker just lost his long haired bulldog Hairy-it. Who was a hog catching fool. 
But there is a current scrap on the Johnson boards about people doing recent crosses with DDB, english bulldog, catahoula, ban dog, greyhound and of course pit bull terrier. It's such a huge mess i've given up finding any thing useful on that site. My little girl is rather "pitty" in looks and being a performance type i am not suprised. St B would not suprise me either. Do you have a pix of her? 









Little white girl with ear spot became this...


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

I've got a picture if I can figure how to post it? ;-)


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## Rachel M. Reams (Nov 29, 2012)

Karen, I think you got a luck dragon, not a dog...


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## Karen M Wood (Jun 23, 2012)

You know, you might be on to something there! I placed her as a puppy and the folks who kept in touch. She was a really great dog, loved the kids and was not dog aggressive. They lost her one X-mass when they went to Miami on a family visit and one of the kids left the front door open. She was struck by a car. 
The fluffy one with patches all the way to the right was placed here in town and he grew up to look a lot like a short coated St Beanard. They have since moved so i'm not sure how he turned out after 3 years old. Really cool bulldog, just looked funny.
Tom who was your dog out of? And you can IM me if you don't want to post it.
K


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## David Stucenski (Mar 29, 2008)

I did mine on my police K9, cause he looked like nothing I have ever seen. Well it was a blood test the vet did. She screens all of our police dogs and we a little friendly bet on his breed. It came back American Bulldog/GSD/Lab. He has the head and body of the AB. Pointy ears of the GSD and the web feet of a lab.(although he is not the best swimmer) and he is also the colors of a Mal. For me personally on "this" dog I would say they were right on and they did not require a picture. He is such a genetic mess my wife called him Frankenstein. So.......he is K9 Frankie!!!


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

I bet at least one of these "labs" doesn't have a single piece of lab equipment. They just look at the picture you provide and make up shit ;-)


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