# Recovery supplements



## Tashauna Medrano

With the weather heating up and the humidity taking its toll I'm wondering if anyone has had any success with supplements like K9 GoDog or CPN Power Boost. I made the mistake of ordering K9 GoDog without reading the full ingredients list only to discover that it has Dimethylprimidinol sulfate (source of vitamin K) aka Menadione. There is a bit of controversy over this man made Vitamin K, so I will be returning the GoDog and possibly be purchasing the CPN Power Boost. I've looked at some of the other threads about this sort of thing and it looks like all the electrolyte hype is just what it seems to be, hype. The part I am interested in is the glycogen, so I was wondering if anyone has any idea if just supplementing glycogen in the dogs water would be enough for the dogs recovery if my dog already gets the other ingredients listed in Power Boost through her normal diet and supplements? Does the glycogen need any other ingredients for it to be absorbed and beneficial?


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## Maren Bell Jones

Are you doing agility?


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## Zakia Days

I've used K9 Go Dog in the past w/ not very noticeable result when working dogs in heat and/or humidity. The formula I used had a ton of carbohydrates in it. My assumption was that the carbs were where the dog would be getting its "second and third wind" or outlast its competitors during work. I've also had a few friends say it makes the dogs "run hot." My guess is it's supposed to allow the dog to give off heat and/or prevent overheating from blood vessel dilation and "blood thinning" (contains Ginko Biloba which can act as an anticoagulant; perhaps thats why the vit. K is necessary? Idk, I'm reaching here). All the while re-fueling the animal and providing whatever the heck all those other ingredients are supposed to provide. Dogs don't lose electrolytes in tremendous amounts from exercise as people do, so "hype" regarding electrolyte replacement in dogs is probably just that, "hype." I've learned that working the dog either early in the morning while there's still dew on the ground or late evening as the air cools is best. Plenty of rest in between and we're not usually too far from ice and/or water during these workouts. I've not seen a significant enough effect on my dogs performance from the "Go Dog." I usually carry sugar, honey, or just give them gatorade for a boost.


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## Tashauna Medrano

Yes. Agility, dock dogs (which isn't too strenuous until you have several waves in one day) and some disc dog. For conditioning we jog together and i ride my bike while she runs with me. She also gets a lot of swimming and she can do that all day without getting too hot but her muscle have to fatigue at some point. Sprints and hills really wear her out fast. Just in case the question come up her food is honest kitchen in the morning with her supplements, and orijen at night.


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## Tashauna Medrano

I like the honey idea. I've always carried honey in our hiking packs for a boost of energy so it makes sense for game day also.


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## Nancy Jocoy

Interesting.......I am actually looking to doing roadwork for the puppy next year to build aerobic endurance and use a high fat diet - perhaps coconut oil to supplement. He won't be actually working THIS summer on searches.

Right now I figure the retrieving we are doing only serves to build glycogen stores which would be good for these kinds of high burst competitions but not so for endurance -- wouldnt high speed and anaerobic be what you would want for thing slike agility?

I am skeptical of possible damage by electrolytes and not sure that carbs are what to supplement for endurance but might be for agility.

Of course the dog is expected to be outside all day to adapat to the climate.


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## Tashauna Medrano

I agree that things like retrieving are good for high burst energy sports. We play a lot of fetch to get her sprints in but she doesn't last very long. We jog because I believe the dog can't be conditioned for just fast burst energy. I think they need a good balance of both. Plus I don't want to do fast twitch muscle conditioning too many days in a row so easy pace jogs break up the week.


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## Peter Cavallaro

Its not hype. The sport/pet forums are based on hype, speak to people that earn big money one their dogs performance — they talk results not hype.


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## Connie Sutherland

Peter Cavallaro said:


> Its not hype. The sport/pet forums are based on hype, speak to people that earn big money one their dogs performance — they talk results not hype.


You mean people "who earn big money on their dogs' performance" can't be bought ... and couldn't possibly be hawking an expensive product for mere money?

Hmmm. I hadn't realized this.


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## Maren Bell Jones

I find just about all these products to be hype. As was pointed out, dogs just don't lose that much in electrolytes because they only perspire a little through their paw pass mostly. I have had my Malinois get quite tired after doing half a dozen extreme vertical jumps back to back, but not if we are doing big air since that's not how it is set up. Good conditioning is key for these short burst anaerobic sports.


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## Connie Sutherland

Here's what one vet says:

http://www.gshepherd.com/heat_stroke.htm

_
"Electrolyte replacement: Dogs do not lose enough electrolytes thru exercise to make a difference, but if the dog gets truly into heat stroke the physiology changes will make them necessary. BUT oral replacement at that point is futile, they need IV and lots of it."_


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## Betsie Janson

I have pedilyte on hand. I mix it with water during a hard workout.


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## Tashauna Medrano

My main concern isn't really electrolytes for the reasons already discussed on this thread, I'm more concerned with feeding the muscles. We've all felt the lactic acid build up after doing a hard fast exercise not to mention the soreness the next day. While I've never noticed that my dog was stiff the next day or limping in any fasion I have noticed decreased performance on subsequent trial days. I found this interesting blog about the products mentioned earlier. Granted it's just a blog and I have no idea what this persons background is it brought up some points that I had considered myself when looking in to these supplements. 

http://evolveanimalnutrition.blogspot.com/2011/12/hydration-supplements-for-working-dogs.html


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## Tashauna Medrano

After looking more closely the woman that wrote the article has a Ph.D in Nutritional Sciences (Canine Nutrition) so she should know what she is talking about.


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## Peter Cavallaro

I can say there is an observable difference when a dog is and isnt on électrolytes in the case of extreme physical exertion and dogs without will suffer, thats predictable and observable, not opinion, hype or rocket science.


Make no difference in a typical dog sport trial sch, ring...cos those dogs dont ever get to a level of exertion that would require it most likely from what i seen.


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## Betsie Janson

Traditionally, beef broth was used to these means, mixed with a porridge and/or whey and/or honey. Most of what I use pedialyte with water for is to encourage water intake, and provide a little glucose (honey works as well) and is a bit more isotonic than other hydration/performance drinks. I just find it easier packaging, and less hype than others. I guess you could bottle or by the little packs of honey as well. Encouraging good water intake will help prevent soreness later. I address glycogen replentishment by feeding a fat, carb and protein meal 2 hours after a hard workout. By then, the insulin should be up, which helps to "piggyback" the amino acids into the muscles. This is a technique used by mushers for optimal condition when racing. This meal is often a mix of broth, kibble, fat and protein. 

That article is 100% correct, which is why I don't use a lot of the canine labelled products. Just a light simple "sugar" to encourage maximum water intake, then I address the protein later. I also add quite a bit of water to every meal, to encourage even more water intake. I would rather provide a complete animal protein than any processed product in a drink or shake.


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## Betsie Janson

Also, following new theories and research, lactate actually helps to correct and extend muscle usage by serving as a direct and indirect fuel. Muscular acidosis to the extent of causing damage is based upon very old research on frog legs. New research has shown that lactate is misunderstood and needed fuel used indirectly for extended usage. I believe Brooks is the father of lactate and lactic acid research. Other research has found that pushing workouts into lactate thresholds has increased ultimate building and performance.

Most post workout "soreness" (2-3 days later) is actual cellular damage and inflammatory processes. Hence the need for rebuilding and increased amino acid intake. 
Lactic acid has an undeserved bad rap. We are seeing correlations in stress and exercise tests we are performing on equines here at the university. 


http://www.nytimes.com/2006/05/16/health/nutrition/16run.html


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## Tashauna Medrano

EXCELLENT article. Thank you for sharing that. Other than learning that lactic acid is a good thing it seems as though I should be doing more endurance work with my dog on a regular basis to build mitochondria and then prior to events I should be focusing short burst workouts. Did I read that correctly?


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## Nancy Jocoy

Let me ask you...this is an old (94) article that talks about both dogs and horses and optimal nutrition....Not an easy read having two very different critters in the same article but they talk a good bit about fat adaptation, the lack of artheresclerosis in both animals, and the efficiencies gained in buring fat instead of glycogen....particularly cleaner burn generating less heat, and less impact on blood pH.

Ok now we are talking endurance, not sprints...but even there they were seeing gains with fat adaptation.....

I am still slugging through this one (re-reading) but wonder about insights there. My own observation with Grim working in the South Carolina Summers was that 32% protein, 18% fat in the diet gave me a much more heat tolerant dog than lower protein and fat diets. ............ Part of why I really am wondering about a light coconut oil, hone, and meat snack during a long work period. 

Hydration - yes, I feed kibble now and I soak it so that my dogs hardly drink water. And I will flabor up there water with some crumbled up food to get them to drink before work. 



http://jn.nutrition.org/content/124/12_Suppl/2745S.long


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## Joby Becker

I have used K9POWER (super fuel, and peakgrow) products with good results in the past. 

I also have used Canine Red Cell. Most people use if for anemic dogs only, but some people use it for performance. I had used it for a few dogs in the past, and I swear it made the dogs more crazy (in a good way). It does contain selenium, so it is important to give correct amounts.


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## Betsie Janson

This article might be a bit easier to get through with a similar message:
http://jn.nutrition.org/content/128/12/2686S.full

Kronfeld's ideas in sled dog research are what led to the popular Atkin's diets in humans (not his intention mind you). He also revolutionized the sport (nutritionally) and brought home prepared and balanced meals to light instead of straight kibble diets. This led to years and years of research, honing and fine tuning nutrient balances and as of late, micronutrient research. 
I did a write up a bit ago, summarizing average sled dog and sight hound performance diets. I also wrote several comparative reports in regards to home prepared and kibble diets (yes, I am a bit of a nutrition geek). In racing form, sled dogs will consume up to 50-60% fat, and between 9-12,000+ kcal a day. Protein outside of kibble (kibble is usually 30% protein or above) in usually red meat with a high organ content. 

You are correct in increasing fat. I still feed carbohydrates for a fast boost, but I rely mostly on fat for the bulk of my "energy" feeding. Dogs can't truly "carb load" like us, but you can make sure there is glucose actively available. I reserve protein for what it is needed for, amino acid pool replenishing. Gluconeogenesis is far too expensive of a process to rely on it for energy. 
I am still amazed at the numbers of working people that turn down an inexpensive raw red meat source for being "too fatty," when they have a hard keeper Malinois or GSD that they dump tons of groceries into a day.
I hope this answers or confirms something, as I didn't really see a question lol.


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## Nancy Jocoy

Betsie Janson said:


> This article might be a bit easier to get through with a similar message:
> http://jn.nutrition.org/content/128/12/2686S.full


Much easier to read! Thanks.


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## Tashauna Medrano

O Much easier to read although i'm not sure I understood all of it I think I got the jist of it.


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## Betsie Janson

If something confuses you, I can try to explain it a bit better.


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## Craig Snyder

Betsie Janson said:


> This article might be a bit easier to get through with a similar message:
> http://jn.nutrition.org/content/128/12/2686S.full


Thanks for the article Betsie. I enjoyed it greatly! There's a good chance that I'll be relooking at my dog's diet as a result. This should be an important read for all the SAR dog handlers. A 2-4 hr wilderness task in heat can be very taxing on the dogs and I've always been more concerend with hyperthermia and heat exhaustion/stroke.

Changing the dogs daily diet might be help that. 

A question I'm not sure is answered in the article: If I want to give me dog field treates while working a task, or a snack at some point, would a high fat snack be more benefical than a say a carb snack or a hihg protein snack? What would be most easily converted for the dog's immediate use without causing a higher metabolic rates to digest and process the food.

I've been a fan of honey packs myself for both me and the dog while in the field.

Craig


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## Tashauna Medrano

After reading the article much more carefully and looking up some definitions I got a good grasp on this. Thanks. Really great article. 

I do have another question though. In people ( know I shouldn't be comparing to people but it's my only frame of reference) it is believed that you can train to have either more fast or slow twitch muscles. Is the same true for dogs?


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## Craig Snyder

Tashauna Medrano said:


> I do have another question though. In people ( know I shouldn't be comparing to people but it's my only frame of reference) it is believed that you can train to have either more fast or slow twitch muscles. Is the same true for dogs?


I'm sure the vets can weigh in on this but if i remember from my animal physiology and anatomy classes some eons ago, you can not increase fast or slow twitch muscles. You can only enhance and build muscle. You can't actually add muscle or change the type of muscle you are born with. So the trick is to make the most of what you have! That's not to say you can't greatly improve and develop the capability of, for instance, your slow twitch muscles. That's really what all training and conditioning is all about. 

Conditioning is also not just improving the muscles to be more capable, but to condition your whole body to be better. I.e. professional athletes are not only great becasue of increased muscle, but because they have increased lung capacity, trained their movements to be as efficient as possible to use as little energy as needed, extended their strides, reduced fat to minimum levesl, increased heart pumping capaicity to deliver more blood and hence energy to the muscles, etc. etc. Balanced training is important.

Of course I'm sure there are exceptions and with advances in modern medicine, maybe anything is possible. But for most practical purposes, you can't increase the amount of any given muscle, just it's abilities. You're born with all you're going to get. It's why careful breeding programs can really improve performance and are so important.

Craig


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## Peter Cavallaro

You cant add muscle, surely that is contrary to the obvious evidence???? Did i misread?


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## Craig Snyder

Peter Cavallaro said:


> You cant add muscle, surely that is contrary to the obvious evidence???? Did i misread?


No, you didn't mis read. You can add length and thickness to existing fibers but you can't add fibers as I understand it.

http://www.unm.edu/~lkravitz/Article folder/musclesgrowLK.html

The above article explains some of this. How as muscle fiber is damaged, repair cells basically join to the fiber and strengthen it, are integrated into it and increase its size. But you don't actually get new muscle fibers with their own nerves and control capability.


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## Craig Snyder

Peter Cavallaro said:


> You cant add muscle, surely that is contrary to the obvious evidence???? Did i misread?


I meant to add this into the above post but got timed out.

In her last question she asked if you can influence or change the numbers of slow twitch and fast twitch muscles. That would be a no. But you can do training that tends to build and condition one in favor of the other. Hence the vast physical difference between say a cross-country runner and a competitive weight lifter. And why some people just don't have genes to be x- country runner or a football player. If you could add muscle, theoretically, anyone could build enough muscle to be a heavyweight weight lifter. But you can't.


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## Peter Cavallaro

,C raig i stlll think this is intuitivey incorrect, farmers get paid in muscle meat, you can measure yr own muscle mass and start a weight program and increase yr muscle mass. 

Sure everyone has a genetic limit on how much and what type of muscle but you can gain measurable mass difference???


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## Tashauna Medrano

Craig I totally agree with what you are saying. But I find it interesting that if we can train our dogs muscles to use one type of muscle more than the other than will that change the way we feed the muscles. The article that Betsie posted mentions that slow twitch and fast twitch burn fat and carbohydrates differently. While I can't change the ratio of muscle fiber I can change the size so does that change how I would need to fuel those muscles. I know i'm not asking a very clear question but hopefully you will understand what i'm trying to say.


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## Craig Snyder

Peter Cavallaro said:


> ,C raig i stlll think this is intuitivey incorrect, farmers get paid in muscle meat, you can measure yr own muscle mass and start a weight program and increase yr muscle mass.
> 
> Sure everyone has a genetic limit on how much and what type of muscle but you can gain measurable mass difference???


Sure, you DO gain measurable muscle mass. Think of it in terms of pillars holding up a roof. Let's say your not allowed to add any more pillars. But nothing prevents you from reinforcing the existing ones by adding newer materials or adding to the pillars thickness and density. Eventually you can't add any more thickness, or make the material stronger. If you run electric through the pillars, you can only have so many electric lines. Muscles are similar in that you only have a set number of nerves serving the muscle fibers and controlling them. As you build the muscle fiber mass, you still only have the same amount of nerves serving that fiber. You can't add muscle fibers cause you can't add nerves to serve them and control them. Nerves grow an regenerate very, very slowly.


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## Peter Cavallaro

Ok got it.


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## Craig Snyder

Tashauna Medrano said:


> Craig I totally agree with what you are saying. But I find it interesting that if we can train our dogs muscles to use one type of muscle more than the other than will that change the way we feed the muscles. The article that Betsie posted mentions that slow twitch and fast twitch burn fat and carbohydrates differently. While I can't change the ratio of muscle fiber I can change the size so does that change how I would need to fuel those muscles. I know i'm not asking a very clear question but hopefully you will understand what i'm trying to say.


That's a way different question. I think Betsies article addressed it to an extent. The sled dogs benefitted from a higher fat content, (>50%) diet during their events. But the grey hounds didn't. 

So maybe during a weekend to two week deployment of SAR teams, handlers maybe should consider increasing fat content for them. But unless the dog is use to that type of diet a change could be terrible for them. But maybe just some additional fats might be helpful. I don't know. It's something to think about. 

I don't think the diet is that important to building or conditioning for a specific muscle type (within reason, they of course need the nutrients to rebuild any muscle of course during training). I think the diet comes more in play at the time immediately before and during the event so the right fuel is available in maximum quantities during the event to supply the necessary fuel for the muscles and to recover from the event. At the time of the event, you can only fuel what is there.

A lot of trainers for people will do the most intense training months before an event. Then back off to a lower level to allow the muscles to be 100% repaired before the event. I would suspect that for certain dog events that might work as well. It's hard for SAR dogs cause you don't have scheduled events really. 

But for agility dogs, and ring dogs, maybe it would be best to train the hard physical stuff a few months in advance. Then in the 3-4 weeks prior to the event back off to just a few runs a week to let the dog really rest and repair their muscles fully so they are at full peak for the event. We've never competed in agility at high enough levels to really care that much. So it's just a theory for me.


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## Bob Scott

Connie, correct me if I'm wrong but adding to much fat if the dog doesn't need it or use it can create pancreas problems.


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## Maren Bell Jones

I have posted this before and hope it is of help. I believe that for almost all of our sports, conditioning is a much more important factor than following a particular nutritional strategy. Most of our sports and activities follow closer on the spectrum towards using glucose not fat a la greyhound racing rather than long distance fat oxidation of dog sled racing. For an agility dog or Schutzhund dog, a 50%+ fat diet is not even close to necessary.

http://workingdogdoc.blogspot.com/2011/07/canine-performance-nutrition-overview.html


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## Craig Snyder

Maren Bell Jones said:


> I have posted this before and hope it is of help. I believe that for almost all of our sports, conditioning is a much more important factor than following a particular nutritional strategy. Most of our sports and activities follow closer on the spectrum towards using glucose not fat a la greyhound racing rather than long distance fat oxidation of dog sled racing. For an agility dog or Schutzhund dog, a 50%+ fat diet is not even close to necessary.
> 
> http://workingdogdoc.blogspot.com/2011/07/canine-performance-nutrition-overview.html


Totally agree. Where would you place a SAR dog on deployment? Wouldn't you consider that more of an endurance thing more akin to the sledders? 

I still think that hydration is probably way more important than anything else however. I think over heating is probably my biggest concern as far as hindering performance. Not necessarily nutrition in the field.


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## Maren Bell Jones

I am saying this as a non-SAR person and have only watched urban dogs work the rubble piles at the Missouri Task Force 1 training center (which is about 5 minutes from my house) and not done it myself, but you could arguably divide it into urban, wilderness, avalanche, water, and so on. With the changes in terrain would bring different challenges. But it would probably fit more on the aerobic side, especially if the dogs were deployed for multiple days at a time for an urban setting for large scale disasters. Perhaps closest to hunting dogs who go on multiple day trips, but less running but more climbing would be my guess. So I'd go with a pretty calorie dense food for those dogs (like 400+ kcal/cup, decently high protein and fat, but not as much as a sled dog diet).


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## Nancy Jocoy

On the wilderness SAR dog, absolutely - aerobic and probably much less than a sled dog, probably less than actual herding, but right there with bird dogs. I would say the typical pace is a steady trot unless they hit odor then they break into a run. 
When they are actively working odor though I don't think they are as efficient at cooling themselves...I think it depends on the mode they are working (scanning vs detailing or on a trail)

Honestly, most are NOT doing this on a daily basis so the dogs must be kept in condition using other means to approximate....

One thing different than police dogs is most SAR dogs I have seen don't have the luxury of an A/C container during downtme. Probably better for acclimitization but harder for recovery. But handlers also have the luxury of forcing the dogs to take breaks, something I would imagine is harder for LE to justify...Kind of hard to do if an airscent dog is hot on a scent though, which sometimes can carry significant distances, particularly in mountainous terrain.

Some hounds seem to have more heat tolerance and endurance...they even breed coonhounds into bloodhounds down here in part for the heat tolerance and I have heard catahoulas are amazing in that regard (heat).

Perhaps the difference from a sport dog though is some lack of ability to say no on working the dog in the middle of a hot day. We have, however, restricted work on midday on a hot day because it is a terribly inefficient way to use the dogs and the dogs are just one tool - dusk to dawn is prime time for many reasons. But muggy southern nights can still be brutal.


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## Louise Jollyman

Just a couple of random thoughts:

We use K9 Go Dog, but use it more for getting the dogs to drink, than for any specific nutritional benefit.

We began feeding extra fat to our dogs in England to increase their energy levels and it definitely worked, in the UK, it was possible to get goose fat in a container at the supermarket and add 2 spoonfuls to the dog's normal food, they were on a raw diet which was lower in fat than some of the higher octane kibbles. I have seen the same benefits using the higher protein grain free type kibbles.

Here in the US I have not found such a convenient way of adding extra fat, I have added olive oil but I think it is better to add animal origin fat, just not sure if there is a way to buy it here.

As far as heat tolerance, all the dogs I have had that have arrived in TX before 12 weeks have handled the heat well, the only dog I worry about was born in England and spent his first year there, his heat tolerance is much lower than the others.


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## Maren Bell Jones

Nancy, I hear you on the heat thing. Last year when trialing for the Schutzhund WH, it was literally 104 F degrees when we did obedience. Definitely affected just about everybody's performance. I used to not train when it gets that hot in the summer. Now I know you have to train in it sometimes because you might have to trial in it. But I know you SAR folks have it tougher!


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## Nancy Jocoy

I sure wish they would simply put LARD into dog food here instead of canola oil and flaxseed - both of the latter two can go rancid along with creating carcinogenic byproducts, and saturated fats are much more stable And some dogs don't take well to flax which is in the vast majority of "premium" foods. The chicken fat I get. Linoleic acid (omega 6) *is* an essential amino acide so you definitely need *some* in the diet. 

Canola is about all GMO and I have heard some concerns on potential issues with it. I do believe virgin coconut oil is a good, rapidly metabolized, medicum chain tryiglyceride for adding to food as an energy supplement.


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## Maren Bell Jones

I did a diet consult with an extremely...ermmm..."special" client not too long ago who wanted a raw diet balanced for her. She's a raw foodist for herself, even eating raw chicken and beef, not just sushi.  *ewwww...* Anyways, the diet we came up with had to have a source of omega 6, so the default is usually corn, vegetable, or canola oil. She didn't want any of those, so after doing some consultation with one of the board certified veterinary nutritionists, I found out organic walnut oil can be used as it has a similar profile, but with being non-GMO for those who are so inclined.


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## Nancy Jocoy

So your *ewww* client did not want to eat chicken fat and bacon grease eh? Those are high in linoleic. So is natural peanut butter, pecans, pistachios......all she has to do is eat nuts I would think!


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## Tracy Wessel

I have used K9 Vertex and K9 PowerBoost with marked results. I begin using in the Spring, adding PowerChow to their meal daily. I carry the PowerBoost (recovery aid) in my radio harness and give them a few licks after which they have their drink. I do not add it to the water, as some dogs don't seem to want to drink the water with that in there. But they've always been happy to have a lick from the jar. 

The biggest change I see is in heat tolerance. I know several law enforcement official that use the Lakse Kronch Pemmikan Bars

In any case, the difference between using these and not using them has been the difference in a day of work versus a struggle to keep going on a very hot day.

As for feeding, I tried adding fat when my Groen just wouldn't gain weight. It didn't help. I have access to fresh meat right at butcher time, including plenty of fat off cows. What put the weight on my dog (and better energy) was lean meats from elk, deer, sheep and goat. More natural selection I would say also.


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## Maren Bell Jones

Nancy Jocoy said:


> So your *ewww* client did not want to eat chicken fat and bacon grease eh? Those are high in linoleic. So is natural peanut butter, pecans, pistachios......all she has to do is eat nuts I would think!


Sorry, was typing that with my phone. Should have said "who wanted a raw diet balanced for her dogs" not just for her. She actually did want to know if she should feed raw walnuts to her dogs instead of the oil and I suggested that would be great...if her dogs were rodents. Otherwise, probably best to go with the oil. ;-)


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## Zakia Days

I believe my dogs did not respond significantly to the Super Fuel or Go Dog because I already feed a diet rich in most of the things those products carry. I also always increase fat when doing winter conditioning and provide it in summer as well. People that feed a not so "high octane" kibble or raw feed, would probably see more of a response to the products. For some reason I like the CPN VERTEX formula better. I'm sure I did see some benefit with thatformula a few years ago. At the time I was feeding kibble. I rotated it into the a few times a week. I also break down and use it in the off season if for some reason they do something strenuous.


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