# Teaching Schutzhund tracking with a ball



## Lyn Chen (Jun 19, 2006)

Has anyone done this? I've heard of it before but wonder about the actual application.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

It's not uncommon. One drawback is a highly ball driven dog can often be hard to slow down because he knows the ball is waiting for him.


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

I put a tug at the end of the track for Lyka. The biggest problem I had at first was that she'd walk right past the tug looking for more food :lol: She has a hard time switching between drives. If she's all about the tug she will ignore food. When we started her I would feed her 1/2 her normal meals and she would eat her meal at the end of the track. Once she "got it" we switched her to tug.


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## Chris Wild (Jan 30, 2008)

It's one of those "depends on the dog" things.

It can create excess speed on the track, and a dog who doesn't maintain deep nose and methodical tracking because they're far more interested in getting to the end than in the track itself.

But it can also create a great motivator for a dog who is less interested in food.

We use this from time to time in training, especially if a dog is getting bored or we're adding length or making things more complicated and the dog could use some extra motivation. How often we do it depends on the dog and the circumstances, but I don't like to do it a lot for the reasons I mentioned.


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## Matthew Grubb (Nov 16, 2007)

I like toy rewards on tracks but it has to be a toy that stimulates the dog and encourages interaction with the handler. I like clipping a 10 foot line onto a tug and leave it at the end of the track with the line running the last 10 feet of the track to the tug. As the dog tracks up the line, I will grab the line and jerk the tug to “make it live”. The big dose of prey at the end combined with the tug interaction with the handler really builds drive for tracking.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

I use food at the end, after the food is eaten I give a sit command, Fuss,then throw the ball.


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## Frank Phillips (Jan 8, 2008)

I use the ball on the track. I do NOT put the ball at the end or or play with him at articles. This makes the drive down the track to the end and results in speed problems. I bury the balls with a bulb planter along the track, this way the drive is down INTO the track and the ball can be in any foot step along the way. Some tracks have 1 ball burried, some have 6, like everything, mix it up...... I do not allow him to get up and run around with the ball when he finds one. He comes to where a ball is burried, he digs it up, and then I have him down and let him keep the ball in the down..... Then I out him, give him some food and restart just like at the articles..... My dog is CRAZY for the ball and not that food motivated but incorporating the ball into the track has worked great. I will say that I could not have done this without a solid down. When I first tried it I let him get the ball and run around and then he was just TOO crazy. But when I down him on the track after he digs it up, his mind stays on tracking.....


Frank


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## Matthew Grubb (Nov 16, 2007)

Frank Phillips said:


> . I bury the balls with a bulb planter along the track, this way the drive is down INTO the track and the ball can be in any foot step along the way.


I like that idea!!!


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## Frank Phillips (Jan 8, 2008)

Matt

It worked great for my dog. I mix them up, I will bury a ball 3 feet after a corner, I can see when he smells the ball and it is never more then 1 foot print before the ball because it is burried......


Frank


Frank


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## Donna Rednour (Feb 12, 2008)

Frank Phillips said:


> I use the ball on the track. I do NOT put the ball at the end or or play with him at articles. This makes the drive down the track to the end and results in speed problems. I bury the balls with a bulb planter along the track, this way the drive is down INTO the track and the ball can be in any foot step along the way. Some tracks have 1 ball burried, some have 6, like everything, mix it up...... I do not allow him to get up and run around with the ball when he finds one. He comes to where a ball is burried, he digs it up, and then I have him down and let him keep the ball in the down..... Then I out him, give him some food and restart just like at the articles..... My dog is CRAZY for the ball and not that food motivated but incorporating the ball into the track has worked great. I will say that I could not have done this without a solid down. When I first tried it I let him get the ball and run around and then he was just TOO crazy. But when I down him on the track after he digs it up, his mind stays on tracking.....
> 
> 
> Frank


Wow Frank!! That's a lot of work!! How many people ask you what you're planting on that field?? Or tell you that balls won't grow in that soil... it's too acidic!!! Whatever trips the dog's trigger!!


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## Frank Phillips (Jan 8, 2008)

Hi Donna

I have actually had a women ask me what I was planting....ha ha ha... But it is not hard at all, it litterly take 5 second to dig the hole with a bulb planter and then drop the ball in and put about 1 to 1 1/2 inch over it, I also put the clump of dirt off to the side so that while he has the ball in the down, I refill the hole....My luck he would be running after the track and break his leg in a ball hole....But like you said, whatever motivates him....Troll got 98 in FH2 and NEVER had a ball on the track, but tons for food drive......


Frank


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## Donna Rednour (Feb 12, 2008)

Was wondering if it was Troll or your new guy? I've always had food motivated dogs so never had to get quite so creative!! Hope all is well with you Frank!


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

I just recently started sometimes having balls camoflauged with dirt/leaves on the track (I don't bury them). And I do reward with a little tug right on the track - it's a much higher reward than food, BUT I am using it because my dog had to be on the recieving end of a little major juju so, I'm bringing drives back up.


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## Michelle Kutelis (Sep 28, 2006)

I also use balls/tugs on the track, to motivate. I made the mistake of doing it once at the END of the track, now I have to put them back ON the track instead of the end, because I got that "nose up, fast" tracking at the end, rushing to get to his ball. 

So, as with anything, it's always a balance I think. 

Frank, I like your method of rewarding, and that is kinda of how I've been doing it, but I play for a minute before the down. Then I worried that downing on the track without an article might cause problems- have you ever had the dog try to down to GET his ball, instead of the food on the track?


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## Frank Phillips (Jan 8, 2008)

Hi Michelle

I tried playing with him for a minute when I firsat started this with him but then it was too hard to get his head back into the track, every dog is different of course so if a little play works, great! I just couldn't do it with Cayos.
No, he has never just downed on his own....I think because the ball is burried and he goes through the act of digging it up, he knows the difference.... If you want I have videos and I can post one on YouTube when I get home today and put the link here so you can see what I do....But to answer the question he NEVER gets his ball for laying down...He "FINDS" it and digs it up and then lays down with it... I like the burried because no matter which way the wind is blowing he doesn't smell the ball 10 ft away....I can see when he smells it and it is never more then one foot print before the ball...


Frank


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Frank: I would really like to see the videos. I may switch to burying them because I think if going through the act of digging them up brings up the drives then I wouldn't have to go through the playing and then repositioning, as well as the wind issues.


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## Frank Phillips (Jan 8, 2008)

Hi Susan

OK, I'll post one on YouTube tonight after work and put the link here....


Frank


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## Michelle Kutelis (Sep 28, 2006)

That does make sense, Frank. I would also love to see the video, so I'll look forward to the link. 

Thanks.


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## Frank Phillips (Jan 8, 2008)

OK Guys

Here is a link to track I did with Cayos last fall...This is just a training track and my friend really needs to learn how to film...LOL...But on thi strack I had 3 balls burried and for this one I had them all near the end of the track....I try to be very random on where they are burried.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rF8-u1SL5iQ


Frank


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## Julie Blanding (Mar 12, 2008)

That was pretty awesome Frank! Super intensity. So on the last 'treasure' it was in a container she he knew it was the end? or was there another reason for that?

He certainly seems to be enjoying himself. Nice work.

Julie


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## Michelle Kutelis (Sep 28, 2006)

Thank you, Frank.

Very interesting to watch. Was there food on the rest of the track? (Beyond what you tossed in front after the second ball). 

And what the heck was that green stuff he was walking through?  I sure hate the dirt out here.

I'm going to send you a PM.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Michelle Kutelis said:


> And what the heck was that green stuff he was walking through?


I have it on good authority it's called grass, but I wouldn't know myself. Other than dirt we have burnt brown scraggly stuff. 

Frank: Thank you so much! I am for sure going to be burying balls - in the dirt and burnt brown scraggly stuff.


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## Frank Phillips (Jan 8, 2008)

Julie

Yes, the end is always a tuperware container sealed with a ball in it...I don't end on articles. I don't want him to ever think the track ends until he gets to THAT container....Trial day it is over before he realizes he didn't get to the end yet.....

Michelle....and yes, it's called grass, but right now it looks all white, but you don't have that either.....

No, I have no food on the track at all.... There is a number of reason I like this metheod but one is it is most like trial day. I go to the track with no food scent on my hands, no balls on my person, no food in the scent pad, nothing, he just "knows" the balls are out there and it's time to find them....


Frank


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## Michelle Kutelis (Sep 28, 2006)

susan tuck said:


> I have it on good authority it's called grass, but I wouldn't know myself. Other than dirt we have burnt brown scraggly stuff.


You have burnt brown scraggly stuff! I'm envious. That's it I am driving down there...


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## Michelle Kutelis (Sep 28, 2006)

Frank Phillips said:


> Michelle....and yes, it's called grass, but right now it looks all white, but you don't have that either.....
> 
> No, I have no food on the track at all.... There is a number of reason I like this metheod but one is it is most like trial day. I go to the track with no food scent on my hands, no balls on my person, no food in the scent pad, nothing, he just "knows" the balls are out there and it's time to find them....



Oh I remember that white stuff. It does stick around a while, doesn't it? And SO hard to walk on. Lesson #1- never transplant a South Western desert girl at heart (New Mexico and Arizona) to New Hampshire in the middle of winter.

The other thing about the method you're using- is that if, on trail day, he gets his ball back once you're back at the car, it's all OK in his head.

BUT- you started with food, right? To get the behavior of checking the footprints, and the speed and head down?


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## Frank Phillips (Jan 8, 2008)

What are you guys worried about? The Nationals are in Texas this year on dirt...where the hell am I going to track on dirt.....


Frank


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## Frank Phillips (Jan 8, 2008)

Yup to imprint behaviour and,more importantly, I didn't have the control on him I have now...I never could have had him get to a ball and then get back to tracking a couple of years ago..

Frank


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## Michelle Kutelis (Sep 28, 2006)

Oh shoot- you are in trouble. Plow up some of your back yard? 

But I can't do Nationals, I have an alternate breed now.


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## Frank Phillips (Jan 8, 2008)

Well Then...You coming up north to the North Americans? That's on grass...if the snow melts by then....


Frank


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## Michelle Kutelis (Sep 28, 2006)

I wondered about the snow melting in time! I remember doing a SchH1 middle of May with Torro, and the snow had been melted for 2-3 weeks only.

My dog needs more tracking on grass before I attempt to fly him somewhere and enter a trial. Heck, he needs more tracking on dirt, too. Come to think of it, what am I doing sitting on the computer and not tracking?


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## Julie Blanding (Mar 12, 2008)

Frank Phillips said:


> Julie
> 
> Yes, the end is always a tuperware container sealed with a ball in it...I don't end on articles. I don't want him to ever think the track ends until he gets to THAT container....Trial day it is over before he realizes he didn't get to the end yet.....
> Frank


I understand. I use a can of sardines for the same reason. 
Nice job getting him to focus on the track after he finds the ball. I also use toys on the track when I think I need to up the drive. 

Thanks for posting the video. It was great to watch. That reminds me, I still have to make some videos for Anthony.. eep. I have last year's Regional protection of you and Cayos if you want it.. I'll burn a copy when I make Anthony's. *hides*

Julie

Michelle: I hate the snow, but I also hate dirt! I'm so hard to please.


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## Lynn Paplauskas (Mar 31, 2008)

I really appreciate you posting that video also... gives me something to think about. Thank you Frank.


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