# Keep or Wash-Out?



## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

I'd post in the Service Dog area, but no one looks there. :lol:

I have a 3 yr old, intact male, purebred AKC lab, from Dakota Labs in South Dakota. Nice dog. Hoping to do Psychiatric Service Dog tasks for PTSD, plus scent detection. 

But he tends to be a sissy whiny dog. I'm used to better work ethic than this! He was raised in a pet home. I ignored him for a few weeks until he (mostly) quit whining about life in general.

Has anyone dealt with this? Is it worth working with (all other things being good)?

On a second note, he has a "play" retrieve - ***s around and plays with the retrieve object. Any ideas for fixing this and making it into a strict working retrieve and reward with a separate toy? I mean - besides the forced retrieve.


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## Timothy Saunders (Mar 12, 2009)

has he stopped the whining after you started paying attention to him again? I would teach him a quiet command with a little compulsion. I prefer a type of forced retrieve with e collar. it is not really as hard as a normal force retrieve. since you don't want that how about putting a string on the retrieve item and pulling it so he can't chew or he would lose it. forgot to ask if he chews the item if you give it to him and he is sitting still?


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Anne Vaini said:


> On a second note, he has a "play" retrieve - ***s around and plays with the retrieve object. Any ideas for fixing this and making it into a strict working retrieve and reward with a separate toy? I mean - besides the forced retrieve.


You can back-chain the retrieve, teaching the release into your hand as a separate component before stringing the whole command together. Reward that with a separate toy. You can start with the reward being something he likes better than the retrieve item.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Anne Vaini said:


> ... But he tends to be a sissy whiny dog. I'm used to better work ethic than this! He was raised in a pet home. I ignored him for a few weeks until he (mostly) quit whining about life in general.


"In general"? What situations trigger the whining?




Anne Vaini said:


> Is it worth working with (all other things being good)?


My vote is that he has been taught to whine and that he can be un-taught.


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Seems to me you already made your decision, just looking for someone else to tell you. Was raised as a pet, a few weeks and shows little confidence and whiny. You wanted a working dog right? Sh_t can him now while you haven't wasted that much time...


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

What do you know of his life before you got him. How long have you had him. How do you have work ethic if you haven't been raised to have work ethic. Raised as a pet meaning?? At most, housebroken, an occasional game of fetch and be able to hang out around the house without being a nuisance.

Terrasita


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Have never been around a lab that whines....barks yes, whine no....

What do you mean by "sissy" though? Is he spooky at stuff? 

And playing with the toy on retrieval, correct? That can be fixed, either with patience and teaching him to "hold" the item or you can use the e-collar, which Doug uses as a last resort only. 

Is he hard mouthed? Like chomps on stuff? or is he soft-mouthed, which is the desired trait? 

Doug says you can send him here and he will hunt him.....LOL


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Toss him in the dumpster.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Raised as a pet. Supposedly fetch-crazy as in will bark and bark to get someone to play fetch and they have to drag him away and force him to drink water. I saw the barking once in the presence of the previous owner. Not since.

He whines about the weather. He fusses about long sit stays. I think those are the main complaints right now.

Connie - I was thinking back chain also, but I have been unsuccessful encouraging him to "take" a non-toy retrieve item.

He's generally a good dog. No decisions yet.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

I can tell you what worked with the bouv. Get a bunch of non toy items and dump them in the floor. When he goes near one C/T. Continue upping the ante until he starts to touch, mouth, pick up, bring, etc. Gradually fade the number of items to one. I had problem with the back chaining method with Khira because she wanted to grab it, run off and chew it. After I had her picking things up and bringing them to my hand, I went to her taking it from my hand for the hold. As for the whining and such, maybe he misses his family and needs some time to adjust. 

Terrasita


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> I can tell you what worked with the bouv. Get a bunch of non toy items and dump them in the floor. When he goes near one C/T. Continue upping the ante until he starts to touch, mouth, pick up, bring, etc. Gradually fade the number of items to one. I had problem with the back chaining method with Khira because she wanted to grab it, run off and chew it. After I had her picking things up and bringing them to my hand, I went to her taking it from my hand for the hold. As for the whining and such, maybe he misses his family and needs some time to adjust.
> 
> Terrasita


That's pretty much how I do motivational retrieve except two things.

1. Why do you start with multiple objects? Does it get you better/faster results that using one object? Does the finished dog question what object it is meant to retrieve?

2. Why do you start with non-toy objects?

I've used one object because it seems more obvious to the dog (environmental contrast). However, more objects could increase the frequency of the dog being rewarded... Is that the benefit?

I've started with toy items because the dog seems more likely to actually pick it up. Then switch to similar non-toy items and build from there. Do you see faster progress by skipping retrieval of toy items? 

I think I'll try using multiple retrieve items. Thanks for the suggestion!


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Anne Vaini said:


> That's pretty much how I do motivational retrieve except two things.
> 
> 1. Why do you start with multiple objects? Does it get you better/faster results that using one object? Does the finished dog question what object it is meant to retrieve?
> 
> ...


Good luck!!!

Terrasita


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

I'll try the multiple object and using toys at first to try to get a high rate of reinforcement. If he starts playing with, chewing, tossing or pouncing on retrieve items, I'll take out the toy items?

As far as the whining, I'm totally ignoring it. I have a feeling that he only whines when I'm home and that he is quiet when I'm gone. 

I was frustrated with him yesterday for fussing about holding a sit-stay after about 1-and-a-half hours. I guess not a ture sit-stay as his task is to lean on the handler. So he was resting his head on my leg the whole time.

One other note about the retrieve - he does release into the hand... It's just messy because he ****s around with it for a while first. Not chewy and stressed out. Just having WAY too much fun with the **** thing.

I'll report back. The retrieve is not a high priority task for this dog (thanksfully!). I've got to get going on scent detection.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

You have to take it piece by piece. I wouldn't take away for the mouthing if I'm shaping the pick up. If you have a high value enough reinforcer, he should really drop it w/ the marker. I might would add a release command later for the mouthy. Again, maybe. Khira could grab a dumbell and chew the end off in a blink. After going through the process, the possession became a non-issue. As for the whining. 1.5 hours???? Did you build the duration in increments? Boy, any dog would whine w/ 1.5 hours if you went to fast.

Terrasita


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## Randy Allen (Apr 18, 2008)

Anne,
How long have you had and been working with this dog that you're thinking about washing him out?


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

I'm in agreement with the "dump him" camp. I've learned over the years to work smarter rather than harder. I have respect for those that want to take on "fixer uppers", I just no longer have the patience nor the inclination.

DFrost


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Dumpster! Stop wasting your time!


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## Randy Allen (Apr 18, 2008)

A few weeks, does that mean 3, 5, 6, 10 weeks?
How hard is it to find good prospects for the job/s you have in mind for him?
How good a prospect is he?
Has he made any progress in 'the few weeks' you've had him?


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Anne Vaini said:


> I was frustrated with him yesterday for fussing about holding a sit-stay after about 1-and-a-half hours. I guess not a ture sit-stay as his task is to lean on the handler. So he was resting his head on my leg the whole time.


You're ****ing kidding right ??


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## Timothy Saunders (Mar 12, 2009)

i think you are right gerry. I hope that is a type o. i whine about sitting in a car listining to music for that long


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Randy Allen said:


> Anne,
> How long have you had and been working with this dog that you're thinking about washing him out?


I'm constantly thinking about washing a dog out. When I go to look at a dog it's like "What's wrong with this one?" :lol:He's been here 3 weeks. 2 weeks are evaluation/observation/letting him settle. The past (3rd) week is setting up routines for his tasks and getting into public access work.

As far as how good of a dog - his "hunt" or search drive is good. Maybe not crazy-extreme. but it is there and plenty to work with. He is attentive to people and has already alerted to one person having seizures (twice). Which is one of the reasons he interested me in the first place. He has a CGC - the first "leg" of a Service dog certification. He's totally dog-social without being doggie (whew!) and completely fine with cats, rabbits, and small children.

I would say it's pretty hard to find a dog with enough drive to do the scent detection work, plus calm enough to go into stores, and have great house manners too. At this point, he does fit the LEGAL description for a Service Dog, although he is FAR from my standards.

Gerry - he didn't whine over the long sit-stay. He was figgety though. (He whines at my back door when he is in the fenced yard. More so if HE thinks it is cold.) The long sit-stays like that are an essential task. He's got to get used to it. He does better doing the same task in a stand-stay and will hold it until he falls over asleep, but in the situation, there wasn't space for him to stand comfortably.

Is he a fixer-upper...? I don't know. He does what he was taught. I guess every dog raised in a pet home is a bit of a fixer-upper for a while.


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## Randy Allen (Apr 18, 2008)

I'll have to demure to others that deal with the services you're training for and the investment required. 
To me though the idea of washing out a dog that has only known one life for 3 years seems a might premature after just 3 weeks.

Consider, how would you counsel a person that had just taken one of your dogs if they were having minor issues of (perhaps) acclimation at 3 weeks?


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

The dogs still not gone?


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Dog is here - to stay. He has turned out to be the best dog I've trained yet. I'm really pleased with him. He is my personal Service Dog. (Please send comments/questions about that to PM.)

He is the perfect mix of clingy and independent for me. A more handler sensitive dog would crack. I've seen that a lot in the terriers.) He can hang out and do his own thing, but reliably perform alerts aso. When needed, he is a frickin' velcro dog. Which is perfect and necessary for two of his tasks.

I'm still not thrilled that he'll slip out of a sitstay too soon. He needs to hold a sitstay to perform deep pressure therapy, often for an hour continuously. He is improving and at least doesn't WHINE anymore!

So YAY! \\/


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## charles Turner (Mar 2, 2009)

Anne Vaini said:


> I'd post in the Service Dog area, but no one looks there. :lol:
> 
> I have a 3 yr old, intact male, purebred AKC lab, from Dakota Labs in South Dakota. Nice dog. Hoping to do Psychiatric Service Dog tasks for PTSD, plus scent detection.
> 
> ...


 I vote too wash out, unless you have nothing better to do, then work with him more.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Anne Vaini said:


> I'd post in the Service Dog area, but no one looks there. :lol:
> 
> I have a 3 yr old, intact male, purebred AKC lab, from Dakota Labs in South Dakota. Nice dog. Hoping to do Psychiatric Service Dog tasks for PTSD, plus scent detection.
> 
> ...


Why are you going to keep a dog with those problems, Not to sound mean or nothing but ged rid of him and place him in a home with a family again and let him be just a dog again. No point in trying to make him a working dog. Sorry just my opinion.


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

This is a high energy pet only, flush him and get a working dog now, before you regret it and get all attached............well, he's been there this long, I think you already did......[-X


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Did you guys read the post? :? 

I posted an update to state that the whining is gone and that he is a SUPER dog. 

It has been about 2 months and his public access is flawless and the tasks he has been trained are super. My certification test is one of the hardest out there, so I am really excited to test him when he has all of his training hours logged in. (Maybe another 6 weeks?). 

He is working as a Psychiatric Service Dog, and his task list does not require retrieving (yet). Although his retrieve is infinitely improved by doing drive building / tug foundations.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Well done Anne. You just never know do you.


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## David Ruby (Jul 21, 2009)

I'd definitely wash him ou . . . Oh, wait a minute. . .



Anne Vaini said:


> Dog is here - to stay. He has turned out to be the best dog I've trained yet. I'm really pleased with him. He is my personal Service Dog. (Please send comments/questions about that to PM.)
> 
> He is the perfect mix of clingy and independent for me. A more handler sensitive dog would crack. I've seen that a lot in the terriers.) He can hang out and do his own thing, but reliably perform alerts aso. When needed, he is a frickin' velcro dog. Which is perfect and necessary for two of his tasks.
> 
> ...


Cool! I'm glad you gave him a chance. Given time, I suspect a lot of dogs can do much more that we initially think. At least I've heard stories that have led me to believe so. I'm glad it turned out for you (and for your dog). That's really cool to hear.

-Cheers


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