# What's it going to take?



## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

What's it going to take to get the AKC to change THEIR position? Dog titles earned from the EU are not placed on pedigree information, they do however like DNA registered animals. They need new gene pool stock to improve old lines...

So when are they ever going to get their act together? This information is AS important as the other information that they do post. Playing in the working dog venue is something new to them, and I'll bet it will be just another area that they screw up.


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Howard Gaines III said:


> What's it going to take to get the AKC to change THEIR position? Dog titles earned from the EU are not placed on pedigree information, they do however like DNA registered animals. They need new gene pool stock to improve old lines...
> 
> So when are they ever going to get their act together? This information is AS important as the other information that they do post. Playing in the working dog venue is something new to them, and I'll bet it will be just another area that they screw up.



You probably need to get on Oprah to get it done.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Howard, I do not think there is a chance in hell of this happening. There are still way too many myths surrounding the work that we do that are perpetuated still to this day.

Money is in the showdogs. I cannot, and I would challenge anyone, as I want to know to come up with ten working dogs that were imported to this country at a cost of over a hundred thousand dollars.

I have heard at least twice as many as that of showdogs. (GSD)

The working dog people would have to make a major effort to infiltrate, for lack of a better word the AKC infrastructure, and make major changes in what the people are told over and over about what we do.

Even THEN I do not think it would work, as they would just find us out, and isolate, and then remove. They are better at politics, and have "old money" behind them.

There was a letter from the president that Jerry Lydia posted a while back about the loss of funds and AKC being "the gold standard" Bla Bla Bla.

I am not sure that even if we made a huge effort, we would get anything for our effort.

It would be cool to invite him to this forum and see if he would come on and go head to head with us on this subject. LOL

Oh, I forgot, **** piss shit ****tard and poop.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Here is a link to that infamous letter. The ****tard even seems to be lamenting the fact that Macy's doesn't sell puppies anymore! 
http://www.akc.org/about/chairmans_report/2008.cfm?page=9


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

First Shizzle and now ****tard. AWESOME.


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## Vivianne Herrero (May 20, 2009)

Howard Gaines III said:


> Playing in the working dog venue is something new to them, and I'll bet it will be just another area that they screw up.


A-efing-men! It's the money they are interested in not legitimizing the venue. Hell, I have yet to hear of an AKC club that even offers training for a working title. Why not? Bunch of political bullshit if you ask me. :roll:


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> First Shizzle and now ****tard. AWESOME.


Oh I won't appologize for ****tard, that's definetely age appropriate and as a matter of fact, one of my most favorite words - thanks for sharing it!!!! :-D


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

I just read the above linked letter. I also sent that ****tard a short letter informing him that they will continue to decline as they should until they get their heads removed from their backside, because of their focus of only breeding dogs for show to the point of causing many health issues, in the name of beauty.
I thought I was lacking writting skills until I read that letter. Is English his second lauguage?](*,) ](*,) ](*,)


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

I know it’s in fun to bash the AKC, and I’m all for that when they are in the wrong, but I think you are placing the blame on the wrong organization. The problems you are griping about are problems with the breed clubs not the AKC. If you don’t like it, maybe you could join the breed club and work to change it. The breed clubs of the individual breeds are the ones that controls what the breeding criteria for a breed is and what is on a pedigree. And is any breeder that knows their stuff really making breeding choices based on the titles on a pedigree?

I think if we really want to help the AKC types to see the light we have to stop beating them up. We have been doing that for decades and it doesn’t seem to work. A few years ago the AWMA board invited the American Belgian Malinois Club Board to come out to the AWMA IPO championships. They came to the trial meet the dogs and handlers and left with a completely different view of our dogs and what we do with them. They found out that our dogs are not insanely aggressive and most could be approached. They found out that the handlers are normal folks (with a few exceptions:-\"). And they found that most of our dogs fit the standard and some have very good conformation. It was a great way for us to find out about each other and now the AWMA has good communication with them and have collaborated on a few projects. And best of all few of them have started to work their dogs in IPO and ring. 

And while we are on this subject, can anyone tell me how the AKC can ruin a breed when the AKC does not breed dogs? I hear this over and over again and I just don’t get it. It’s the breed club that sets the standard for the breed. The breeders do the breedings and place pups. The conformation and performance judges are brought in by the hosting club. The only thing the AKC does is paper work. And from what I have experienced they do a decent job of it.


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

From what I understand they blame each other. When one group is asked about the reason they breed a certain way, they blame the other.

Who wrights the standards? From what I know it's the UKC/AKC.

Who interpets the standards? The AKC/UKC at shows and clubs for breeding.

That's how I understand it, but I could be wrong.

Does the USCA demand breeders to create butt draggers?


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Why would anyone give a shit about what an Org like the AKC thinks or does ??

Do they have free t-shirts ??


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## Keith Jenkins (Jun 6, 2007)

Christopher Smith said:


> I know it’s in fun to bash the AKC, and I’m all for that when they are in the wrong, but I think you are placing the blame on the wrong organization. The problems you are griping about are problems with the breed clubs not the AKC. If you don’t like it, maybe you could join the breed club and work to change it. The breed clubs of the individual breeds are the ones that controls what the breeding criteria for a breed is and what is on a pedigree. And is any breeder that knows their stuff really making breeding choices based on the titles on a pedigree?
> 
> I think if we really want to help the AKC types to see the light we have to stop beating them up. We have been doing that for decades and it doesn’t seem to work. A few years ago the AWMA board invited the American Belgian Malinois Club Board to come out to the AWMA IPO championships. They came to the trial meet the dogs and handlers and left with a completely different view of our dogs and what we do with them. They found out that our dogs are not insanely aggressive and most could be approached. They found out that the handlers are normal folks (with a few exceptions:-\"). And they found that most of our dogs fit the standard and some have very good conformation. It was a great way for us to find out about each other and now the AWMA has good communication with them and have collaborated on a few projects. And best of all few of them have started to work their dogs in IPO and ring.
> 
> And while we are on this subject, can anyone tell me how the AKC can ruin a breed when the AKC does not breed dogs? I hear this over and over again and I just don’t get it. It’s the breed club that sets the standard for the breed. The breeders do the breedings and place pups. The conformation and performance judges are brought in by the hosting club. The only thing the AKC does is paper work. And from what I have experienced they do a decent job of it.


I'll be the first one to admit that the AKC can do some stupid things at times but they are also the ones footing the bill whenever BSL etc. raises it's ugly head somewhere. You're absolutely correct, it's not the AKC breeding dogs. The breed clubs write the standards and the AKC in most cases accepts them. It shouldn't require the AKC or FCI or whomever to make people do the right thing when it comes to breeding. I'd be willing to bet good money that most everyone on this board residing in the US that has a dog is AKC registered. The AKC has the Working Dog Sport program in place for a select few breeds. Hopefully it will be voted on permanently this year and when it does perhaps more breeds will get on board. It's an uphill battle because none of the current entities want to acknowledge the program. That's ok though, when it becomes permanent the AKC can ask the FCI to accept their version, which is almost mirror image of the current IPO/VPG rules.


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> Why would anyone give a shit about what an Org like the AKC thinks or does ??
> 
> Do they have free t-shirts ??


Well I care because they are spineless and are appearently the main force in the deteriation of many breeds. Then I guess the breeding organizations are second, as they are willingly breeding for top placement in shows over the health of the breed they are breeding, for bragging rights and cash. To hell with the health of the breed.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Edward Egan said:


> Well I care because they are spineless and are appearently the main force in the deteriation of many breeds. Then I guess the breeding organizations are second, as they are willingly breeding for top placement in shows over the health of the breed they are breeding, for bragging rights and cash. To hell with the health of the breed.


Then you would only be guilty by association.


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

The breeding clubs write the standards and the AKC/UKC adopts them???
Seems backwards to me. But what do I know.


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> Then you would only be guilty by association.


I don't give a **** that I'm guilty or not!!!!!!
I just want to understand who is to blame when a ****ing show dog that just won the latest show can't even breath right, or it's skull is too small for it's brain, or it's butt has drag marks and would run if someone said boo to loud!!!


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Oh please, the AKC is nothing but a registration organization who's sole goal is to register more dogs ergo make more bank. Nothing really wrong with that, but they sure as hell don't have my interests at heart. Call a spade a spade, they really don't give a shit about dogs, other than figuring out ways to make money off of them. I find it laughable and telling that the jackass who wrote the letter is crying because department stores don't sell puppies anymore. The greedy ****TARD probably is busy trying to figure out how to lure puppy mill $$s away from the questionable pet registries the puppy mill breeders use when they know their breed stock isn't registered itself. Give me a damn break. bunch of tacky ass losers.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: I know it’s in fun to bash the AKC, and I’m all for that when they are in the wrong, but I think you are placing the blame on the wrong organization. The problems you are griping about are problems with the breed clubs not the AKC. If you don’t like it, maybe you could join the breed club and work to change it. The breed clubs of the individual breeds are the ones that controls what the breeding criteria for a breed is and what is on a pedigree

If the AKC did something they would all toe the line. This cute little "its the clubs problems" is complete crap. They all eat from the AKC trough.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

“Do something” like what Jeff? Are you saying that you *want* the AKC to dictate what breeders do? 
Come on Jeff; let’s hear some answers instead of contrived bluster and BS.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

What is so contrived about it ?? Maybe something has changed since I was a kid.

Who appoints judges ?? Is it the breed club ?? Who controls a judge that was putting up the types of dogs that eventually became the dogs we see today ??

What the judge is looking for is what the breeders are going to try and produce.

Are the breed clubs doing anything to control these people ??? The AKC ???? 

Not so much bluster Chris, as while they do not directly control the breeds, they do control who gets to judge and what twisted standard that judge is using.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

AKC or ANY breed club/show is controlled by politics. 
Whe a top handler or breeder puts up something outside standards, and wins because of "connections", people want to breed to that "winner". 
"Outside standards' is nothing more then a judgement call as long as it isn't a DQ fault or not allowed.
I don't fault the regestering organization for the downfall of any breed. It's the parent club, the breeders and the judges that are all equally at fault.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Right, but how many of them would go against the AKC if it stood up and recognized that what was showing was not the same breed anymore ??

I am curious to see who thinks the breed clubs would stand up to the AKC ??

Since the AKC appoints judges, what do you think would happen if Chris went through the judges program, and I went through the judges program, and we started putting up dogs that were structurally sound, and had working titles ??

How long would it be before the AKC sent us a nice letter saying thanks, but no thanks ???


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

The breed clubs would quit hiring that judge way before the AKC got involved. :lol: :wink: 
The AKC is all about registeration and putting on money making events. The parent clubs decide the standards and abuse them as needed. That's not the AKCs job.
It's like saying why doesn't the AKC shut down puppy mils? More often then not that's the job og the individual States AG Dept. IF the AKC gets complaints for the people they look into this and often fine and suspend the offender. Doesn't mean they will stop collecting money for crooked registrations but if they aren't aware, they don't care!


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I might add that don't think the AKC isn't sweating over getting new breeds to jump on their wagon. 
Pure bred dogs are a luxury to most folks and the AKC is loosing registration right and left now because of the economy. So many "new" breeds are going under their own registration as opposed to going with AKC now.
Look at all the :roll: Labradoodles, Puggles, and all the other so called "designer" dogs. Don't thing the AKC isn't!
I understand the UKC, a supposedly "working" dog organization, is sucking up a lot of those shitters.
The AKC doesn't decide if a BC that has a CH in front of it's name should be tossed. It's the BCCA!
The AKC didn't stop the Parson Russel Terrier folks from changing the JRT's standards from the original JRTCGB (British) and the JRTCA (American). It was non working people (with money and numbers) that voted to become AKC show folks.
The JRTCA folks forced, through legal action, the Parson folks to change the name to avoid confusion from the working dogs. Same thing in GB with the show Parson dogs. The parent clubs control all this bs, not the AKC!


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

susan tuck said:


> Oh please, the AKC is nothing but a registration organization who's sole goal is to register more dogs ergo make more bank. Nothing really wrong with that, but they sure as hell don't have my interests at heart. Call a spade a spade, they really don't give a shit about dogs, other than figuring out ways to make money off of them. I find it laughable and telling that the jackass who wrote the letter is crying because department stores don't sell puppies anymore. The greedy ****TARD probably is busy trying to figure out how to lure puppy mill $$s away from the questionable pet registries the puppy mill breeders use when they know their breed stock isn't registered itself. Give me a damn break. bunch of tacky ass losers.


OH MY Susan...fire in your wire! I LIKE!!!
Keith does offer a solid point, the AKC is the only group that I know which is busting information out there on BSL. I often get stuff from the Delaware Legisative Laison. If it weren't for him, I would almost be clueless on upcoming sneaky a$$ actions...


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Yes Bob and this is the very reason the American Border Collie Association was fighting with the AKC over their attempts to bring in the working collie...and LOST! He who has the biggest cash cow wins! If there were another registry out there that ONLY dealt with working dogs and did so posting EU titles and US earned ones, how many would jump ship and give the AKC the open finger? Not many I'll bet...


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Howard Gaines III said:


> Yes Bob and this is the very reason the American Border Collie Association was fighting with the AKC over their attempts to bring in the working collie...and LOST!



What did they lose?


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## kristin tresidder (Oct 23, 2008)

Howard Gaines III said:


> What's it going to take to get the AKC to change THEIR position?


 
breed parent clubs petitioning for it. just as seeking recognition for anything from a new title to the possibility of opening stud books, AKC sanctioned parent clubs need to ask for it. if there is enough of a movement, enough support, things can happen. a perfect example is the opening of the basenji stud books to african dogs; or the recognition of the AKC working dog sport (now, the value of that venue is a whole 'nother conversation) the bouvier des flandres, doberman pinschers, german shepherd dogs, & rottweilers' parent clubs organized enough to propose and get approval for this new title. the AKC site says:

"_The American Kennel Club® Board of Directors has granted the request of four *Parent Clubs* to approve the Working Dog Sport (WDS), effective January 1, 2007_... _Each of the breeds involved in such activities have shared a long and valued history that attests to *the need for breeders to use these selection methods as the best possible means for breeding animals that maintain those specific breed characteristics.* In this regard, the AKC has fostered this tradition and has instituted and supported specialized competitive activities to further breed functions and the clubs that sponsor them._

_There are many examples that demonstrate that these trials are used to ensure that the desirable instincts and physical characteristics of a breed are maintained through its breeding program. __*For many of these breeds, the desirable qualities include the physical and mental abilities needed to perform scent and protection work while maintaining a high level of control and a strong degree of obedience.*_

_It is exactly this combination of qualities that have been used for the past 100 years to maintain the most desired characteristics of mental and physical soundness, courage, reliability and service in the dogs that participate in the sport._ "

at some point, someone cared enough to begin trying to stress the importance of working ability in these breeds, and was able to drive that message enough to get enough voting individuals across breeds to rally behind them, to then get the parent clubs to take up the gauntlet and drop it at AKC's feet. 

the GSD is the #3 breed according to AKC registration stats. if enough GSD owners who are also members of the parent club were vocal enough to force it as an issue, then it would become an issue that the parent club cared about. if the parent club of a breed that important (read major revenue generating) petitioned for anything - including inclusion of foreign titles, i would imagine some people in AKC would pay attention. now imagine if the GSD, (#3) the doberman, (#18 ) the rottweiler, (#14) the bouvier, (#81) the malinois (#77) and any other 'working' breeds, like say, the boxer (#6) and so on's parent clubs all banded together to make demands. people at AKC would have no choice but to pay attention! they may not like what the clubs are saying, but they'd have to listen...

but, in order to get there, first you have to make the individual fanciers and breeders care. therein lies the root of canine evils - not with the organization that registers the litters, but with the lone person out there deciding what's important to them, and then making long term gene pool choices with each breeding they do.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Actually, I think a big part of the problem is AKC has no competition, they can do as they please (or as little as they please) because FCI does not recognize any other registration organization in this country.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

There is good money in an all breed registry, and some good bribes to the right folks at the FCI would be about all it would take to get them to recognize a different registry.

Who has money though ???


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Howard Gaines III said:


> Yes Bob and this is the very reason the American Border Collie Association was fighting with the AKC over their attempts to bring in the working collie...and LOST! He who has the biggest cash cow wins! If there were another registry out there that ONLY dealt with working dogs and did so posting EU titles and US earned ones, how many would jump ship and give the AKC the open finger? Not many I'll bet...


 
The ABCA (thanks for the correction howard) fought a LONG fight. I recall that the BC was in the miscelanious (sp) class for a very long time before the show side had enough power and money to win. 
It was just about the same time the Austrailian Shepherd got AKC recognition.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

And now the show BC looks like an Aussie.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

No they look like the Rough Collie/Lassie with long flowing hair and pretty little eyes and a working ability that may be bred down,if not out, of them. Yep, the AKC NEEDED the stud books full of new listings and about 25% have played into the hand. Purests have not. It is some VERY bad blood!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

25% went to the AKC and now nobody can can find a working BC?


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> And now the show BC looks like an Aussie.


And a tri colored show Aussie looks like a frickin Bernese Mountail Dog.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Will it even end??????????????????????????


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