# Why Would Anyone Own A GSD or Rott?



## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

I think back to the past decades when I owned GSD's and Rotts. I sweated all the potential health problems that went with the territory. I had plenty of health issues primarily with HD. I PTSed some descent dogs in my time.

Now that they "invented" Mals and Dutchies, who have very minimum health issues, I question why even more people don't go this route. There was no question in my mind when I investigated the rarity of many health issues with these breeds.

That said, there were other things that attracted me but that was a big one.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

All dog breeds have issues, pick your poison.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

*Re: Why Would Anyone Own A GSD or Rott?;We*

We've had well over dozen Rottweilers in our club none of which were BYB all parents were kored and breed surveyed there have been 2 that were dysplastic but went on to get Schutzhund III titles.
I cant count the German Shepherds we have had 2 that I recall were dysplastic 1 went on to Schutzhund III the other had to be put down. 
99'9% of these dogs parents were all pink papered.
We had a guy come to our club last winter with a very dysplastic mali "just saying"


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

lee, i go with GSD for a number of reasons.

first, when choosing a pup, i definitely look at OFA ratings in ancestors (because i've found that that's a good predictor--though not infallible--of a pup's hip health).

secondly--MOSTLY--i happen to love a GSD's ability to think through a problem and find a solution to it; a good GSD truly does apply their own "logic" to problem-solve, and, IME, it works quite well.

thirdly, i seriously do NOT want a dog that is OCD. thanks anyway, lol  my GSD has the drive to do the job i require of him (at 11 months old), but still hangs out with me (on my feet) as long as his needs for excercise/brain-work are met.

i think it's the "same-old, same-old": you choose the breed that fits your personality. i also have to say that i have owned an AWESOME rottie and dobie--if i could get those 2 back, i would in a heartbeat. and i have never had a mal/dutchie, so i have no comparison, though i love carol boche's Rock dog--but i couldn't live with him, lol. 

but the BEST dog i have ever owned was a GSDxRott bitch. paid $25.00 for her in 1979. big bucks for a mutt in those days...

so i'm rambling a bit, but i will never forget what a vet told me once, when i brought my GSD in with a 3" laceration across his ribs. i had the dog on the exam table, the vet appeared in the doorway, the dog fired up (not bad, just "who the he!! are you?"). i offered to muzzle said dog, the vet told me he could see the laceration just fine (from a good 6' away, right??), didn't need any treatment other than some antibiotics.

that vet said he would rather treat a dobie b/c they have an "off" switch, than a GSD "because they think too much".

needless to say (i hope), i NEVER went back to that practice, because the laceration DID need a few stitches.

the point is: i love my "thinking" dogs. vs a "reactive" dog. 

does that make sense? 

i DO NOT appreciate all the frickin' hair, BTW


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Its called selection. I've had GSDs most of my life and only one had health problems. That was a selection issue. With dogs, it comes down to selection and no breed is immune from problems. 


Terrasita


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## Andy Larrimore (Jan 8, 2008)

Is this thread for real or are we just looking to kill time?


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## Sherry Spivey (Sep 7, 2009)

That's a really silly statement. I have seen several Mals with health problems. I have seen lots of mutts with health issues. You are making a blanket statement. I am sure a Dutchie breeder will say our dogs don't have health issues and be happy to sell you a puppy. Popularity will take care of whatever superiority you may think there is.


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## Anne Pridemore (Mar 20, 2010)

Why would anyone not want a GSD? They are the perfect dog. Hands down. 

It is not about the breed, it is about stupid people buying poorly bred dogs because they want what they want NOW and CHEEP. 

You have tons of people spouting BS about "high-bred vigor" claiming that mutts are almost immune to serious health issues. Well in my Pack of purebred dogs I own one mutt - and he is alregic to everything, prone to skin and ear infections, and mildly displsic. The GSDs, Danes, Rotts, Dobie, and Mal are all 100% better health wise.

No one breed is better off than any other if you have a crap breeder selling pups.

Never under value the power of good slective breeding practices.


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

Andy Larrimore said:


> Is this thread for real or are we just looking to kill time?


has it occurred to you that lee may well be "killing time" considering where/what he's going thru right now?

let's consider this a genuine question, something to thnk about while he undergoes his chemo.

it could turn out to be quite an interesting thread. as long as it doesn't turn into a breed-bashing one that is.

so why do you have YOUR breed of choice, andy??


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## Anna Kasho (Jan 16, 2008)

I liked the GSD's brains. Well, the one that did have some brains... LOL My mals don't come close to Bandit's ability to think and problem solve. I did lose both GSDs to heath issues, they were badly bred, but it's not like I had any choice with getting them. I prefer my mals...

I will say, the mals win, hands down, when it comes to self inflicted injuries. Damn crazy dogs. Torn pads are a regular occurrence, the bitch had a tooth injury, the older male an ACL injury, all had various sorts of cuts, wounds, scrapes, bruises, the younger male had a hygroma on his elbow... and the list goes on!


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

I don't like GSDs. I'm warming up to them since I've had my Malinois but I'll always be partial to how a well bred rottweiler looks. I also love their temperament and think they are great family dogs. My Mali has a great temperament too but he's too high strung to be the perfect family dog.

A working dog is a whole other thing. I wouldn't get a rott again and it would be difficult for me to want a GSD after having this Mali around. I think it's easier to find a good working GSD without hip issues than it is to find a good rottweiler that will actually work. But for me, it's Mali here on out with perhaps a nice dutchie somewhere in the future if I were to have a 2nd working dog.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I got a GSD because Mals are stupid stupid dogs. I also just like a German Shepherd better as a breed. All of the breeds have problems, I would not say that Mals are any more healthy than the GSD, but just about all dogs are healthier than a Rott. LOL

I was discussing this with Esko's breeder, and he was saying how the GSD is getting more popular over there for sport. I see a lot of older handlers over there, and wonder if they just don't want to deal with Mals after a while.

The sad thing is that people NEED to go with the Mals, as the GSD and definately the Rott just don't have the percentages of success that the Mals do. I am one that would love to see that change, however when I hear a GSD that thinks its a Mal, I do cringe. Yuck.


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

ann schnerre said:


> has it occurred to you that lee may well be "killing time" considering where/what he's going thru right now?
> 
> let's consider this a genuine question, something to thnk about while he undergoes his chemo.
> 
> ...


Thanks Ann. No worries Andy. It was both a killing time and genuine question. I'm sitting over here in Seattle at the start of a lonely weekend in a motel room. That is the killing time part.

I owned 3 of the 4 mentioned breeds. I had some health problems after doing the best research I could do with some of my Rotts and GSD's. I put a lot of love, time, effort and money into the ones I had to put down.

It hit me that I never even think about health issues with my Dutchies. Sure I understand that I am generalizing but Dutchies or Mals typically have fewer problems. I like that.


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Its called selection. I've had GSDs most of my life and only one had health problems. That was a selection issue. With dogs, it comes down to selection and no breed is immune from problems.
> 
> 
> Terrasita


Hi Terrasita - I understand that careful selection helps obtain a dog that doesn't have heath issues. I don't think selection alone can eliminate all concerns.

Your statement made me think of the owner of this forum and one of the mods who have GSD's with HD. I suspect they did research before choosing their GSD's.

I believe it is selection plus a bit of luck to end up with no health issues.


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## Guest (Jun 12, 2010)

Anne Pridemore said:


> Why would anyone not want a GSD? They are the perfect dog. Hands down.
> 
> It is not about the breed, it is about stupid people buying poorly bred dogs because they want what they want NOW and CHEEP.
> 
> ...


I think you mean "CHEAP"

and "HYBRID VIGOR"

=D> 

Thanks for the laugh.


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## AJ Johnson (May 1, 2010)

Everyone bashes the rotts health issues but the problem is you can not use current lines. If you want a good right health clear and you want them to work you need to go back in the lines way back t the 80's for the breed before all the back yard breeding started. I have a rott at 13 months that just tore his pads up last night doing obedience with a ball and I didnt even realize until I noticed the blood on my floor coming inside. His drive is insanely amazing and as I bring him up I will be sure to post vids. Im still crossing my fingers on his hips they pre-limbed excellent but time wll tell. I love my rotts and would never want to replace them. I have handled a GSD and Mal and just prefer the Mal I think GSD think too much IMO


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## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

IF GSD's where is healthy, it seems like it could down to preference, but since they are much. much less healthy as a whole, you better have a very strong preference to go with GSD's (like choosing dodge over toyota)



regarding the clear headed thing (there was a good thread a few months back about GSD/DS crosses and whether the DS gains anything from GSD blood), I have heard cops not like it, saying the GSD stopped and tried to go around the decoy (with a leaf blower + streamers) when the mal just went through it, but one trainer/breeder liked that in his car jack scenarios with the rear window down when the owner is outside and the dog has the windows up between him and the scenario, that GSD's could figure out they needed to go out the window behind them, and the mal's just had too much missile lock and didnt get it


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## Anne Pridemore (Mar 20, 2010)

Vin Chiu said:


> I think you mean "CHEAP"
> 
> and "HYBRID VIGOR"
> 
> ...


:lol: That will teach me to respond to things in the wee hours of the morning. Yikes.


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## Jim Engel (Nov 14, 2007)

Chris Michalek said:


> I ....I wouldn't get a rott again ........


I never was particularly enamored with the Rotties I saw in this
country, but in the middle 1980's I saw a few Rotties on Dutch
IPO fields that really made you take notice.

These were athletic, muscular dogs - kind of like Beaucerons on
steroids - that really were impressive working dogs.

I suppose the Rottweiler is for all practical purposes gone like most
of the other secondary breeds, but it saddens me to think of 
what might have been......


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## Guest (Jun 12, 2010)

Matt Grosch said:


> IF GSD's where is healthy, it seems like it could down to preference, but since they are much. much less healthy as a whole, you better have a very strong preference to go with GSD's (like choosing dodge over toyota)
> 
> 
> 
> regarding the clear headed thing (there was a good thread a few months back about GSD/DS crosses and whether the DS gains anything from GSD blood), I have heard cops not like it, saying the GSD stopped and tried to go around the decoy (with a leaf blower + streamers) when the mal just went through it, but one trainer/breeder liked that in his car jack scenarios with the rear window down when the owner is outside and the dog has the windows up between him and the scenario, that GSD's could figure out they needed to go out the window behind them, and the mal's just had too much missile lock and didnt get it



I don't know about that. All things being equal, ie. take one pup of each breed that perform equally well in an "intelligence" assessment with the fence test and couch test etc. and I'll take the Mali any day. If we are talking about the baseline intelligence of dog breeds, that is pretty up in the air guess work at best and so variable it is ridiculous to attempt to do. Dogs are individuals and you stand on quicksand in proclaiming one entire breed as "smarter" than another. Its silly. 

I think the sort of thing in the above quote can be attributed to a combination of inherent "intelligence" and a solid training foundation and exposure to problem solving scenarios as a pup. I'm not talking about walking the dog through the exact scenario either. I'm talking about fundamental problem solving. 

Maybe my Mali is just atypical but she can think with the best of them. Is it purely "genetic" that she can figure out problems? absolutely not. The way she was raised has played a hand in that but if she didn't possess the level of "intelligence" that allows her to problem solve, nothing I did as a handler would give her that ability. I think I have exposed her to enough crazy stuff without pressure that she comprehends that walls on 3 sides or even 4 sides of her does not mean she cannot find a way to escape and hit her target and reward whatever that might be. Usually a subject. 

Does she try to go through or over an obstacle to get to her goal? You effin bet your a$$ she does. But she is so fast that she can do that, fail and switch seamlessly to plan B and go around and still get there in plenty of time and she always has a plan B and a plan C. She's not the kind of dog that shuts down and whines when she gets stymied. She's not even what many of you guys would call a great Mali either so I really don't even get the whole intelligence argument. Maybe I'm just the idiot. 

If you like Rotts, (I do) then find the best dog you can from a breeder you trust that is not going to charge you 3K for a pup. Same goes for GSDs I guess.


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## Kirstyn Kerbo (Apr 3, 2010)

I think Rotts and GSDs have their bad health reputation because they are way more 'popular' among the general public...the avg joe doesn't know what a Mal or especially a DS is. 
Therefore...they have fallen into way more wrong hands. They get bred all the time without anyone thinking. My younger GSD actually came with his papers when he was given to us. He has some nice ScH3 dogs in his pedigree, through his sires line. He has a good temperment and is a solid dog but he has bad knees and he just turned 4. I really hate the AKC for the whole "if it has papers, its awesome and must be bred" CRAP. 

Then I have the one with the soft temperment and bad nerves who was put together great. Going on 8 and not a hitch in his step, he can go hiking for hours and still want to walk later. But if I took him to the conformation show in this country, I would get sneered at and treated horribly. He looks like a different breed. Go figure. I can't talk to much crap on his temperment, because he kept me from getting mugged one time. He may be afraid of vacuum cleaners, but a guy that comes out of nowhere darkness to do no good to a 16yo(at the time)...he appears to like them for lunch and dinner. That guy needed a change of pants, I garuntee(sp?) you(at the angle he approach, he did not see my dog...that and it was pretty dark, so he got a nice surprise). 

I love my GSDs, and will for sure own more in the future. But I really want to have a Dutchie as well...but who knows. :-\"

I have never owned a Mal, DS or Rottie so I can't say anything about them. I have a hell of an admiration for how Dutchies hit decoys. That is insane!
The grief I always catch about GSDs and Rotties is that they are not trustworthy because they are "used to biting people". How you can't trust them, blah blah blah. BS.


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## Margaret Wheeler (May 29, 2010)

Well one good reason that you might get a GSD is because someone like Michael Ellis advised you that a well bred working GSD would be a better dog for you considering that you are new to protection dogs and have a busy household with teenagers and their friends passing through and doing typically crazy, airheaded teenage things. 

Another might be that you found an outstanding working German Shepherd Breeder.

Another might be that you have talked to enough skilled experienced trainers, handlers and decoys who think it's just fine and dandy to do either French Ring or Mondio with a good working GSD.

I could come up with more reasons if you really want to know but I'm guessing you don't.

Just want to make a couple of points about this magic bullet, hybrid vigor. Having come from breeding and working two highly hybridized breeds I can tell you from experience that: first breeding healthy, functional dogs is a lot more dependent on the experience, knowledge, ethics and intelligence of the breeder than whatever percentage of inbreeding you decide is the magic number. Second whenever you work with highly highbridized breeds you significantly decrease the predictability of offspring. So, ok the problems there are obvious right? You buy a puppy because to you winning is everthing and the puppy's parents are WINNARS AND SO YOU KNOW THAT YOU ARE GOING TO PWN when good ol heterogeneity steps up bites you on the arse and says DENIED!


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Lee H Sternberg said:


> I think back to the past decades when I owned GSD's and Rotts. I sweated all the potential health problems that went with the territory. I had plenty of health issues primarily with HD. I PTSed some descent dogs in my time.
> 
> Now that they "invented" Mals and Dutchies, who have very minimum health issues, I question why even more people don't go this route. There was no question in my mind when I investigated the rarity of many health issues with these breeds.
> 
> That said, there were other things that attracted me but that was a big one.


 LEE! Go back and regroup...what is the point?!

All dogs and breeds have issues.

All trainers have issues.

The Mal and Dutchies aren't THE BREED. Finding the right breed and lines IS the issue, not the breed. 

Am I reading this thing wrong???????????????


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## Margaret Wheeler (May 29, 2010)

Howard Gaines III said:


> LEE! Go back and regroup...what is the point?!
> 
> All dogs and breeds have issues.
> 
> ...


 
No, but I think that you might still have the capacity to be surprised by arbitrary hardheadedness.*

*an admirable trait imo


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Howard, I think this is my point. I said the negative health issues with GSD's and Rotts weighed heavy on my decision to go the route that I chose.

I understand that health issues can show up in all breeds but there seem to be less problems with Mals or Dutchies.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Lee H Sternberg said:


> Howard, I think this is my point. I said the negative health issues with GSD's and Rotts weighed heavy on my decision to go the route that I chose.
> 
> I understand that health issues can show up in all breeds but there seem to be less problems with Mals or Dutchies.


 And with that I agree, as with the Bouvier. It all depnds upon the lines. Other than dogs, how's it going?????


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Howard Gaines III said:


> And with that I agree, as with the Bouvier. It all depnds upon the lines. Other than dogs, how's it going?????


I don't want to whine - not great. But we will leave that alone. This "killing time" helps a bunch. Thanks for asking, Howard.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Lee H Sternberg said:


> I don't want to whine - not great. But we will leave that alone. This "killing time" helps a bunch. Thanks for asking, Howard.


 Lee, I care so my door is always OPEN. Have a great weekend and I look forward to more of your posts....I think Bro! =;#-o


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Howard Gaines III said:


> Lee, I care so my door is always OPEN. Have a great weekend and I look forward to more of your posts....I think Bro! =;#-o


Howard, I knew the title to this thread was provocative. I intentionally didn't post it in the "Please Don't Hurt Me Anymore Zone (Conflict Free)" on this forum.

I expected to take some bashing. I can hack it!\\/


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## chris haynie (Sep 15, 2009)

keep your head up mr. sternberg. you cant kick cancer's ass if you get too bummed.


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## Ashley Campbell (Jun 21, 2009)

I wouldn't have a Rottweiler, simply for the fact I have yet to meet one I liked at all. Most of them have been assholes, and not in the "drivey" good way, more like wanting to eat you even though they know you well - poor breeding? You bet.

I wouldn't mind having a Mal though even though they are prone to having the same health problems as GSD's, just not as many of them tend to get it...OR...it's not reported as much because they aren't as popular of a breed. Just my thought on it. I do like the problem solving ability of the GSD. For instance, my GSD bitch is too smart for my own good. I lock her outside, she has learned (I have a split level house) to open the downstairs laundry room window, climb on the dryer, and hide down there so I don't notice her. Sneaky and smart.I don't want a dumb dog that will blast through any obstacle, I want the dog that goes "Ya know, I can walk around that"...


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Ashley Campbell said:


> I wouldn't have a Rottweiler, simply for the fact I have yet to meet one I liked at all. Most of them have been assholes, and not in the "drivey" good way, more like wanting to eat you even though they know you well - poor breeding? You bet.
> 
> I wouldn't mind having a Mal though even though they are prone to having the same health problems as GSD's, just not as many of them tend to get it...OR...it's not reported as much because they aren't as popular of a breed. Just my thought on it. I do like the problem solving ability of the GSD. For instance, my GSD bitch is too smart for my own good. I lock her outside, she has learned (I have a split level house) to open the downstairs laundry room window, climb on the dryer, and hide down there so I don't notice her. Sneaky and smart.I don't want a dumb dog that will blast through any obstacle, I want the dog that goes "Ya know, I can walk around that"...


A good Rottweiler is not a nice dog not going to even trying to discuss what is good temperament I will say you better be very creative and a excellent dog trainer to make polished Schutzhund with a monster Rottweiler.
I started with this breed over 20 years ago in the second 1/2 of there rise in popularity when there were still lotso powerful dogs coming from Europe lotso people had no clue as to what they were getting into or what to do with them.


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## Guest (Jun 12, 2010)

It's a moot point if we're discounting, what everyone would agree, are the obviously crap representatives of either.

I'm split down the middle.

But I'll give a plug for the GSD since I currently own one.

The best brains I've ever seen were in GSDs. The most perfectly balanced aggression coupled with calm grumpy dominance toward adults, an "internal" non-manic, drive. Good with kids. Good in the house. Demonstrably "loyal" to his one and only owner (not simply a whore to reinforcement). Very classic and awesome traits. This a dog you would never EVER observe recalling to the wrong person, just because that wrong person happens to be the first human-shaped thing on the field which the dog sees. Sorry mals, I've seen that more than once....umm...._more than twice. _Enough to be a trend. Pigeon brained reactivity sometimes. Yikes. Blazing entry, full grip, out like a VCR ejector...and he runs back to some other random guy on the field. Sweet Jesus.... :lol:


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## Guest (Jun 13, 2010)

GSDs are #2 with popularity. Just above the Golden Retriever.

How many of those are from working lines? Not many, per capita.

Mals are #87 or something.

How many of those are from show lines? Probably not many.

Like I said, summarily discount the crap off the top, and there are fewer disturbances in the force.


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## Ashley Campbell (Jun 21, 2009)

I might have to retract one of my previous statements here...my new dog made one hell of a liar out of me. I have a 2nd story deck on my house, it's about a good 8 foot drop from the top of the rail to the ground...IT HAS STAIRS...and my dumbass male GSD saw me throw a tennis ball over the side (where usually my bitch will race down the stairs to get it) and jumped over the side...so much for the whole brains and thinking things through statement.

"Ya know, you could have used the stairs" - ](*,)

That goes right along with the "Huh, my dog's NEVER done that before..."


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: Blazing entry, full grip, out like a VCR ejector...and he runs back to some other random guy on the field. Sweet Jesus.... 

GSD's have this "wrong guy" affliction as well.


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## Guest (Jun 13, 2010)

Stop lying to make friends.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Have you ever seen me try and make friends ?? Better to tell people to piss off, works better too. : )


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## Guest (Jun 13, 2010)

You're adopted (your mother never told you), over-weight, nobody likes you, and GSDs simply don't do that.

Harsh truths you need to face. Now.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I actually am adopted, from the Cradle, I am fat, not just overweight, and I have 6 friends. They all know that about the GSD. The GSD that doesn't do that is..... well ....... you know, a shitter.

Did you kill Stacey or some shit ?? Where the **** has he been ?


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## Margaret Wheeler (May 29, 2010)

Steven Lepic said:


> The best brains I've ever seen were in GSDs. The most perfectly balanced aggression coupled with calm grumpy dominance toward adults, an "internal" non-manic, drive. Good with kids. Good in the house. Demonstrably "loyal" to his one and only owner (not simply a whore to reinforcement). Very classic and awesome traits.


 

That's some nice writing right there, Steve. Got me a little misty eyed. Thanks!


I hope I'm not fooling myself, but I'm thinking you just described my young fella, or at least what he's going to be in another year or so.


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## Guest (Jun 13, 2010)

Lies, Jeff. How do you sleep at night?

Stacy went off his meds and went on a bender. Not that he even remembers these episodes, so I'm not sure what exactly he's doing. He only recalls a vague blur of blood, feces and semen.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I actually am adopted, from the Cradle, I am fat, not just overweight, and I have 6 friends.


You have at least 7 friends :razz:


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Stacey went off on a tour of gayness in a drunken blur again. Well, what can you do, gayaholics anonymous can only help those who want to help themselves.

Quote: Lies, Jeff. How do you sleep at night?

I don't, I sleep during the day.

Quote: You have at least 7 friends 

No, I used both hands to count, both times I came up with 6. LOL


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> No, I used both hands to count, both times I came up with 6. LOL


We don't want to know what you do to count to 21


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## Guest (Jun 13, 2010)

Who said anything about gayness?

Most of those fluids were his own.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: Who said anything about gayness?

Most of those fluids were his own.

Geez, Lepic, Stacey's forehead has got to be bleeding from the shots you are throwing. LOL

Quote: We don't want to know what you do to count to 21 

That is just a matter of taking off a SHOE Thomas, a SHOE ! ! ! ! !


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: We don't want to know what you do to count to 21
> 
> That is just a matter of taking off a SHOE Thomas, a SHOE ! ! ! ! !


Jeff,

You really can't count, can you?
Taking off both shoes will only get you to 20


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

No, I can't. That is why I train dogs, no need to count.


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## Ashley Campbell (Jun 21, 2009)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Jeff,
> 
> You really can't count, can you?
> Taking off both shoes will only get you to 20


Unless you're from Arkansas or Alabama (or just plain inbred)...then you can count to 22 with fingers and toes.


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## Tammy St. Louis (Feb 17, 2010)

>>>Quote: You have at least 7 friends 

No, I used both hands to count, both times I came up with 6. LOL

and apparentally ( from what you told me in the growl class thread ) is 2 of those freinds are retarded..


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

The tards passed from health issues. So, they are not counted.


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

I've had GSD's for 18 yrs, never had HD in any. Personally have known well bred Mals with hip and back problems. Just the luck of the draw.


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## Erin Suggett (Nov 17, 2007)

I have two Mals at the moment and have had a few prior to these two. GREAT breed!

However, I also had a GSD for 13 wonderful years. The GSD was my partner for 7 years in armed security patrol work. Incredible, incredible dog! A true worker at heart. I can tell you at this moment, no matter how many Mals or other breeds that I may have in the future, there will be no other dog that could ever come close to being what my GSD was. That dog had EVERYTHING all wrapped up into one amazing package. He was frighteningly intelligent and undoubtedly loyal. Truly incredible dog. Knock-on-wood, I never had one health issue with my GSD..._not one_. Unfortunately, I can't say the same for some of the Mals that I have had. But I don't blame that on the breed. That would be unfair and unreal. Just as it would be to blame something back on the GSD. 

Nonetheless, both breeds are amazing in their own individual rights.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Glutton for punishment


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

After the Briard who was "easy" once I knew how, to train to IPO 3 - he just wanted to work and for me, although if someone else had offered him a more interesting training programme, guess he'd have scarpered, I had the choice between GSDs, Malinois, Giant Schnauzers and Bouvs, in roughly that order. 

One judge said a Malinois would suit me, but, having trained in GSD Clubs and seen my first working line GSDs, I was practically won over, but not quite. In the end the GSD won, Giant Schnazer and Bouviers fell out because of being used to a Sheperd in the end. Malinois fell out simply because I knew nothing about the breeders and coudn't envisage much help.

I^d only seen show GSDs before and was fascinated by the lithe, athletic and wolfish looking animals who just wanted to work, not as unselfishly as the Briard, but even so ....

As for frighteining intelligence - I haven't come across it yet in canines :-$


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## James Degale (Jan 9, 2009)

*The choice of dog depends on the JOB!
*
If it requires sitting around for hours doing nothing, and it is not socially accpetable for the dog to be whining, destroying the cage, a downright nuisance barker trying to get you to do something with it 

nor is it professionally or socially accetable for you to be whipping out a ball to play crazy chase/tug games or pacing endlessly annoying the hell out of you and those around

or a young family that maybe doesn't have the time or space or frankly energy in this busy modern world to deal with a high drive maniac 

but 

needs a dog that can fire up nicely and quickly...then its the ROTTWEILER!!!*

IF you need a senseless dog to play footsie SPORT at breakneck speed with a poncy french guy in a colorful suit then Mali is your dog! 

The GSD is a nice all rounder
*


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

James, if you visit German speaking countries, don't call it "footsie" sport, it could embarrass the ladies at least!!


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

GSD for me, smart on the uptake, keen to please, stimulating, and a good all rounder.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Are GSD folks living in a fantasy, travailing through time and space and living in an alternate reality that only they can see? 


I'm glad that your dogs never got sick and were still able to leap skyscrapers in a single bound on their 15th birthday, but the stats tell another story. 

19% of GSDs evaluated by OFA have bad hips. Malinois have 5.5%, Rotts 20.3% and Dutchies 6.2%. 

19.3% of GSDs have bad elbows according to OFA. 10.1% of Malinois. 40.4% of Rotts

6.3% of GSDs have thyroid problems according to OFA. 1.9% of Malinois.

i could go on, but I know things like facts and numbers give some of you headaches. But the point is clear, although all dogs have health issues German Shepherds have more than Malinois. 

Now on the the fairytale that GSDs are the best "all-arounders" or "jack of all trades". All I have is one simple question. Why is it that in *EVERY SINGLE VENUE *where the two breeds go head to head the Malinois wins? \\/


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## David Feliciano (Oct 31, 2008)

Seriously, GSD owners need to hop back into their DeLoreans


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## Amy Swaby (Jul 16, 2008)

Christopher Smith said:


> Why is it that in *EVERY SINGLE VENUE *where the two breeds go head to head the Malinois wins? \\/


You must be looking at very select venues in only a few countries if you think this is fact. Also Really REALLY? Did you entirely miss the whole working vs show thing everyone else mentioned in this thread? 

How many mals were tested vs gsd and rottweilers?
How many mals are show lines?
How many of the gsd's and rottweilers are show lines?

When you can answer this then maybe you'd understand you can't just use straight statistics from OFA to back you claims for a discussion on working dogs. 

Btw I'll help you out 
rottweilers tested 90125
gsds tested 97930
malinois tested 2218

Gee really you think they found more hd dogs with GSD and Rottweilers? 

Oh and even if the same number were tested, these statistics would still ONLY be relevant in a discussion about the breed as an entity, not the breed in sports. When i look and see byb's selling all their akc fugs... well lets say I haven't seen malinois puppies up on the board at the vet for sale yet. If i look at the lines I look at for working rottweilers? Most have close to nil puppies produced with hip or elbow problems. So unless you're a complete idiot when looking for working dogs...


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Great Amy, they have nice hips and elbows but still cannot work. The OFA numbers are ****ed anyway, I doubt many people are sending in their bad hip x-rays to OFA to state the obvious.

I bred some really nice Rotts, and would love a time machine to see if they would do ring. I am pretty sure that they would, but would they be in the running for the podium ? Not sure. I am pretty sure they would get too hot and control would be a huge factor.

The fact that you busted out "show" and "working" so easily tells me how bad things have gotten.


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## David Feliciano (Oct 31, 2008)

Amy Swaby said:


> Btw I'll help you out
> rottweilers tested 90125
> gsds tested 97930
> malinois tested 2218
> ...


^^^^^ obviously doesn't understand percentages let alone statistical analysis!!! What percentage of GSD's in the country do you think that 90125 represents? What about the 2218 malinois? It would not surprise me to find out that 2218 malinois represents a larger portion of the total number in the US than 90125 GSDs!

Also, LMFAO @ working rottweilers being separated from show rottweilers.


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

I'm going to throw one more thing out. There are plenty of working GSD's, Mals, recently Dutchies and some Rotts on the forum. 

Think of how many Mals or Dutchies you heard about with HD. Now think again how many handlers on this forum have reported owning GSD's with HD.

It isn't even close!


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## Anne Pridemore (Mar 20, 2010)

David Feliciano said:


> Seriously, GSD owners need to hop back into their DeLoreans


I'll be happy to stay in the 80s with great dogs, low gas prices, and fairly stable economy. 

Mals are just GSDs on PCP anyway - it's great to love drug addicts. The drug of choice- bite sleeve. :lol:


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

Now on the the fairytale that GSDs are the best "all-arounders" or "jack of all trades". All I have is one simple question. Why is it that in [B said:


> EVERY SINGLE VENUE [/B]where the two breeds go head to head the Malinois wins? \\/


The USCA 2010 WDC had 5 GSD's 1st-5th before the first Mal.


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Edward Egan said:


> The USCA 2010 WDC had 5 GSD's 1st-5th before the first Mal.


FIX:lol:


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Edward Egan said:


> The USCA 2010 WDC had 5 GSD's 1st-5th before the first Mal.



Edward,

Maybe it has something to do with USCA being a GSD breed club.
Where most members own GSD's and they now discourage alternate breeds by listing them as "mixed" unless them obtain their scorebooks from their own breed club? Nah that can't be it 
I almost hesitate to mention that Mike Diehl (the WDC Champion) came in SECOND to a Malinois at the AWDF All Breed
Championship 
Some might even suggest that the Malinois people throw the WDC and don't try as hard, for fear that UScA will ban alternate breeds like they did when they started winning the UScA Nationals. ;-0


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Christopher Smith said:


> Now on the the fairytale that GSDs are the best "all-arounders" or "jack of all trades". All I have is one simple question. Why is it that in *EVERY SINGLE VENUE *where the two breeds go head to head the Malinois wins? \\/


There is a difference between a venue and a trial. Of course you can find trials where GSDs win. But overall Malinois get higher scores on average than GSDs doing schutzhund. And that's when you only count "workingline" dogs. If we add in showlines.........

Shall we talk about French Ring?

How about agility?

Care to pontificate about how GSDs are beating Malinois in the obedience ring?

I've never seen a GSD find a truffle, but I've seen a Malinois do it!

Come on what do ya got!?! Are the GSDs sitting around resting their bad elbows on their bad hips? :razz:


It's just too much fun to mess with people that have an emotional attachment to a breed:twisted:


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

So, the GSD has more incidence of HD than some others..big woop.

If you don't check your dog could be perfect, whatever the breed and maybe your vet or radioligist may be biased.

I will always defer to Don's train of thought..if the dog can do it, it must be ok. Whether working through discomfort or not, I wouldn't waste time interpreting it until it becomes a problem.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Edward Egan said:


> The USCA 2010 WDC had 5 GSD's 1st-5th before the first Mal.


True but the average Malinois score was higher than the average GSD score. \\/

That event also lacked the top 5 Malinois in the country because it was held so near to the Malinois World Championship. It's the same circumstance as this years AWDF. 

But look with your own eyes. This is a 100pts at the FMBB

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eFEl2hyOONU
And this is 100pts at the WUSV
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KRwAWVIHDJI
That escape bite gets full points?:-\"


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> So, the GSD has more incidence of HD than some others..big woop.


Unless your the guy gettin' wooped on.:wink:


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## Adam Rawlings (Feb 27, 2009)

This is turning into "my breed is better than yours". LMAO


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

Christopher Smith said:


> True but the average Malinois score was higher than the average GSD score. \\/


You can spin it however you like. The true remains! The first Mal was 6th. Thus you previous statement was incorrect.:lol:


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## Guest (Jun 14, 2010)

People can own whatever the hell breed they want. Who cares? A lot of what we hear and read about breeds of dog is a sack of stinking bullshit anyway. We all like certain things, we're all different and we can choose whatever we damn well please. :-\"


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

ann schnerre said:


> it could turn out to be quite an interesting thread. as long as it doesn't turn into a breed-bashing one that is.
> 
> so why do you have YOUR breed of choice, andy??


i don't think andy ever responded, did he?

and the thread is going just where i thought it might....oh well, it was good for a while.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

It is not bashing so much is it is a lack of real experience with large numbers of dogs, and our pandering to bullshit money tanks like the OFA.

We bring up the ONE trial, or the ONE dog. That is a lot of fun to do. I would love to reach back in time and grab one of my old Rotts as a pup and see if I could get to ring three with it.

THis thread does not really confront the real issue, which is how we go about our business in the dog world. We as a whole do not pay attention to many of the things we need to, I am guilty as the rest of you, but I do try and push people to think about the impact things have.

I bust on gimme trials, but no one really cares. They would rather have the title than keep the sport correct, and the dogs that pass correct.

The breeds like the Rotts are really hard to come by, and they were ever really good at sport as a whole. Their mindset is not one of playing a game, not the strong ones at least.

The GSD is plagued with folks that want the "Legend" but not the dog. I am not sure what the actual numbers are, but considering that there are maybe 4 or 5 thousand people that work dogs, that sure leaves a LOT of room for dogs that behave more like stuffed toys than dogs.

THEN you have the whole problem with trying to promote the sport and the irrational fear that if we tell people what we are doing, the house of cards will fall. What a giant piece of crap that thought process is.

THEN because we hide this shit like it is our own personal life savings, we truly limit the GOOD training and GOOD knowledge that many have gathered over the years. People are out there REALLY believing that punishing a dog will destroy his spirit, because for every ONE time that something that we do gets published, we have some idiot on TV explaining how damaging it is to a dogs psyche to punish it for mauling children.

We allow this shit to happen to us, to our breeds, and then we talk about it on threads like this that ONLY we will read. 

Kinda sounds like our deal with all these idiot politicians we have hired. We like to bitch about them too. ](*,)


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Edward Egan said:


> You can spin it however you like. The true remains! The first Mal was 6th. Thus you previous statement was incorrect.:lol:


Thus you can't read.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I bust on gimme trials, but no one really cares.


I think no one cares when YOU bust on trials because they feel like that's just your shtick. Anyone can sit behind the keyboard, throwing back a few cold ones, and "bust" on shit. When they see you actually getting in there and doing something to stop those trials maybe that could change.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Do tell. What would your plan be ??


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

ann schnerre said:


> i don't think andy ever responded, did he?
> 
> and the thread is going just where i thought it might....oh well, it was good for a while.


Hey Ann - I guess I'm not the only one "killing time". We have about 8 pages of it now.


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## Erik Berg (Apr 11, 2006)

If a person likes the GSD more they are naturally going to choose one before a mali. In the GSD breed as a whole HD is pretty common, around 25-30% if I look at the numbers of X-rayed GSDs here in sweden where X-raying is done in large numbers, probably more so than other countries.

On the other hand, how many GSDs can´t be worked because they have HD C or even worse, the numbers of severe HD is not so high and if you select a pup from the right lines I would say you have a good chance to avoid HD/ED-problems.

Other than that it´s apples and oranges, I don´t know if the best SCH-mals are so much better than the best SCH GSDs, that many mals may have some more speed is probably not an importenat issue for many of those that have GSDs in policework or other venues, even if it may look good on the sportfield and get you high points.


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Eric - I would say those figures are pretty straight numbers and parallel my personal experience. I don't like those odds.

After years of owning GSD's I found myself in a state of paranoia every time I got a new pup. I was always wondering if I was going to beat the odds.

Finally I decided, screw this and looked for a alternative breed.

I have not looked back since. I enjoyed owning both GSD's and Rotts. I just don't want to put up with those health concerns any more.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Those are interesting thoughts there Lee. I've had a few gsds now and have experienced my fair share of health issues with them, enough for me to consider changing my breed of choice. I've been entertaining the thought of another breed, mainly Mal but will probably come back round to gsd, only with more thorough research beforehand to minimise the odds.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Never owned a GSD, it's just not a breed that has interested me. For one thing, my favorite GSDs remind me of Malinois, so why not get a Malinois  I did own a Rott many years ago, one of the best ones I've ever seen actually. I got him from my sister, who is a big Rott fan, but was getting out of the protection sports (tired of the politics) and this was a serious working dog, she didn't want to keep him as a pet. Although a very cool dog, and one that I think could have done quite well in Ring, I ended up selling him after maybe 9 months, it's just not my breed. He was a medium sized male, around 82 lbs, very athletic, but still to bulky for my tastes. I like "buff" dogs, but in a smaller package (45 lb pitty package). He was also a sharp/dominant dog, excellent with family, including kids, but would nail a stranger for just reaching to pet him. Wasn't a liability I wanted to deal with, not when he wasn't "my breed". You couldn't have bought him from me if he'd been a Dobe, and worked like he did, I'd have dealt with the sharpness.

The smartest dog I've ever owned is Cali, one of my Malinois. Not only does she learn fast, but she problem solves exceptionally well also. Her mother is the same way. The second smartest was actually a Boxer I owned years ago named Margot. She may have even been as smart as Cali, but since she was gone long before Cali arrived, I never got to compare them side by side.

One thing I haven't seen mentioned is longevity. Dobes were my first love, but I ended up leaving the breed due to the health issues, and the difficulty in finding one that was both healthy and worked. I've seen some nice ones though, so maybe someday ... Although Malinois can get any health issue any other breed can get, they do get them in much smaller percentages. And they live longer. Cali's mom Ping is 16 and still going for 3-4 walks a day, 2+ miles each. Vision is still pretty good, her owner thinks her hearing is going but I think it's selective hearing LOL I'll never believe she can't hear, if she can be at one end of the house and come running because the refrigerator door at the other end of the house was opened \\/ Cali just turned 11 and is still going strong, she's got some wear and tear from slamming decoys, but she just spent all day yesterday working as the setout dog for a herding trial in 90 degree weather, so she's not ready to retire to a couch just yet. 14, 15, 16 are not unusual for Malinois, most of the working ones that I know that died before 14 were put down because of results of the damage done to their body over they years from working, not because of "old age" things (organ failure, cancer, etc)


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## David Ruby (Jul 21, 2009)

Question for Lee (and, well, anybody else who reads this );

I think at least part of the process for at least some (maybe most?) pick a type of dog at least in part based on which one has a temperament that seems like a good fit, either for their personality, family/kennel situation, quirky preferences, etc. I know, Captain Obvious. Still, the old-schoolers seem to really like the German Shepherd mind.

Coming from German Shepherds & Rottweilers how did you like the Dutchie personality/quirks at first, and how was your adjustment?

Part of why I ask is:

1) To help you kill time (you're welcome :-D), and;

2) Maybe I'm just lucky or weird, but I've liked most of the Malinois I've got to see work a/o hang out with. It may be the dogs, their training, etc., but there are some that seem to be able to work, then have manners enough to chill out and at least not vibrate and hyperventilate when they're not working (usually, they just kind of hang out, maybe chew on a toy, or just lay down on their own or in a down stay). It seems like some Dutch Shepherd breeders (at least stateside) either see the Dutchie as, or are breeding them toward, sort of a what-the-German-Shepherd-used-to-or-should-be type of dog.

I'm still learning, and never owned a Malinois, so maybe I don't get to have an opinion on them yet. At this point though, and m it's just because I'm missing out on what it took to get them there from pup to finished product, or just line-dependent or something, however most of the ones I've been around I have liked and I think I'd enjoy having one. I know there are some that match more-or-less the uncontained energy (one in particular is a cool dog, nice worker, but definitely has a great need to have all that drive and energy directed, still liked him, but if I brought him home my wife would shoot ME and give the dog back), and I've seen some of the same dogs I thought were cool mentioned above when they come out of the kennel and really need to burn off some energy that kind of blew me away at first.

Still, after getting to train with Mal folk for a while and occasionally hanging out with them (the dogs, and the people obviously), I like the breed thus far more than I thought I would. If my experience was just of dogs that couldn't ever relax, or were handler aggressive, or had legit OCD problems where they chewed their tail off and wore their footpads down, or were extreme even for the breed, I might feel a bit different. The ones I've met have largely been quite a bit more composed (and admittedly very well-trained).

-Cheers


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Hi David - I believe that GSD's or Rotts actually fit MY TEMPERAMENT better than Mals or Dutchies. I took a long time deciding to take the plunge. I knew what I was getting into and decided, because I'm retired, I could handle the action that these breeds desire. I am well aware that most people choosing Mals or Dutchies aren't retired but that's why I made the personal decision.

You mentioned your wife. My wife is going nuts trying to deal with these dogs while I am gone. She is lost on how to handle them and totally ineffective. They know it and are making her pay a heavy price. They are not getting much exercise so there is a lot of pent up energy. I finally told her yesterday to put the ecollars on and use the vibrate button to gain some control.

On the flip side she never had a problem with my Rott if I was absent a few days. My Rott had a whole different mindset. I believe any of my GSD's would be the same way.

Please understand that I'm talking about my dogs and a wife who doesn't have a clue about pack structure. My Dutchies need firm control or they will run you over.


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## David Ruby (Jul 21, 2009)

Lee H Sternberg said:


> Hi David - I believe that GSD's or Rotts actually fit MY TEMPERAMENT better than Mals or Dutchies. I took a long time deciding to take the plunge. I knew what I was getting into and decided, because I'm retired, I could handle the action that these breeds desire. I am well aware that most people choosing Mals or Dutchies aren't retired but that's why I made the personal decision.
> 
> You mentioned your wife. My wife is going nuts trying to deal with these dogs while I am gone. She is lost on how to handle them and totally ineffective. They know it and are making her pay a heavy price. They are not getting much exercise so there is a lot of pent up energy. I finally told her yesterday to put the ecollars on and use the vibrate button to gain some control.
> 
> ...


Lee,

Yeah, for me personally, family impacts my decisions. My current dog is perfect for where I'm at now. If I ever get a Mal or Dutchie, it would either have to be the right one, or my wife might get more into the dog stuff depending how my current one develops. I'm lucky in that she knows & likes the person I've trained under, and she's meeting the other one I'm training under on Wednesday, so maybe she takes an interest.

I also have ulterior motives (not in a bad way) of getting my daughter into dogs. Not pushing her or anything, but exposing her to being around dogs, seeing how training goes, and if she decides to take an interest in it, great! If my wife a/o daughter end up getting more actively involved in dogs and it's not like they couldn't control the dogs if I wasn't around, then I think it would be a fun challenge. If they both decided to remain willfully clueless, yeah, I would probably just admire the Belgian & Dutch Shepherds from across the training field (or whatever) and stick with something not as "busy." At this point, it's something that's just kind of fun to talk about.

I'm probably just stupid, but I like the quirks about dogs. Granted, I also like my easy-as-pie dog, she's great, and I see working with her as a partnership. But she is going to be a LOT slower than a Mal or GSD. Even then, that has its own sort of quirks. It's just fun to learn and work through this stuff. For me, a Mal just seems like it would be a different sort of challenge. It might also make a hell of a lot more sense for Mondio. :???: There is a reason I've got the dog I have not though, so it works for me.

Honestly though, I DO like the Malinois though. They are cool dogs. I mean, the Bulldog reflects more of what I'm like in a lot of ways. And I could obviously find Mali's (or, well, ANY working breed) that would be too much for me to handle, or even just more than I'd want to squeeze into my current situation. But that's life. Still, there are some that I've hung with that I'd straight-up like to throw in my car and take home and make obstacles or drive out to a park and do fun stuff with. I'm pretty flexible though. As long as I had a decent bond with a dog and some idea how to make them work and satisfy their needs and do something fun with them (that's why I've got my great trainers \\/) there aren't many dogs I don't like. Dogs are just fun to have around and do stuff with.

Best wishes to you and your wife though. Yeah, I could see how that could be a pain for her. Maybe once this is all done, you two can laugh and there might be a fun story or two that comes out of it. I find the stories where the dogs mess with you are much funnier some time after they happen and not so much when you're in the middle of dealing with them.

Well, take care of yourself and keep busy. Hopefully this killed some time in your day. 

-Cheers


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

I hope she finds humor in it someday, David. Right now she wants to kill me and the dogs.:smile::smile:


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## David Ruby (Jul 21, 2009)

Lee H Sternberg said:


> I hope she finds humor in it someday, David. Right now she wants to kill me and the dogs.:smile::smile:


Time makes most things funny. Like my last dog, loves me, my wife never gave him a chance. He pissed on her side of the bed. I can tell you she found NO humor in that WHAT SO EVER. Now? Well, at least I can laugh about it.  She kind of sardonically laughs about it, and we worked through it. I can tell you that took some time for her to be able to joke about though. Good times.

At some point, once things have cooled off and you've gotten past whatever issues you're having with them, I think you just kind of have to look at the dogs, think "you stupid @#$%s", and laugh about it.

-Cheers


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## Guest (Jun 14, 2010)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> It is not bashing so much is it is a lack of real experience with large numbers of dogs, and our pandering to bullshit money tanks like the OFA.
> 
> We bring up the ONE trial, or the ONE dog. That is a lot of fun to do. I would love to reach back in time and grab one of my old Rotts as a pup and see if I could get to ring three with it.
> 
> ...


I think its more that noone in the real world cares about dog sports and most don't even know they exist. John and Jane Citizen think the Westminster Dog Show is dog sports. The average GSD will never see a field or a proper heel. And who on TV says that punishing dogs is bad? Really, I'm curious because we don't have a TV and all I hear about is Cesar Millan and he is all about dominance theory and punishment. Everyone seems to love him. CHhht biatch!

The concept of training dogs to "bite people" is not only foreign but inflammatory to most people. They see the obedience as you teaching the dog to guard you as if that is the precursor to a dog biting them and their children, not a decoy in a padded suit. I see a TV series in this actually. 

What exactly are the real issues you think are being ignored?


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

My first GSD, Thunder, was chosen partly based on having a couple of great GSD/x dogs growing up and when my kids were growing up. By 6-7 months old Thunder was my all time #1 dog and still is. 
I always will have a weak spot for the terriers. Probably have another some day.
Had two Mals. Neither for very long. I know there are some great ones out there but my two were shitters unless there drive carried them. 
Had a Saint Bernard, Weimar, Spitz (American Eskimo today) 5-6 different terrier breeds and a shitload of mixbreeds. Still have to put the GSD on top for a great all round dog. 
I haven't had less then 2-3 dogs at a time during most of my life.
I didn't find any of the breeds any easier to train (each dog was different in spite of breed) but the GSDs and GSD crosses just seemed to connect with me in a different way.
Terriers fit my younger temperment better. =P~ :twisted:


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## Margaret Wheeler (May 29, 2010)

Bob Scott said:


> My first GSD, Thunder, was chosen partly based on having a couple of great GSD/x dogs growing up and when my kids were growing up. By 6-7 months old Thunder was my all time #1 dog and still is.
> I always will have a weak spot for the terriers. Probably have another some day.
> Had two Mals. Neither for very long. I know there are some great ones out there but my two were shitters unless there drive carried them.
> Had a Saint Bernard, Weimar, Spitz (American Eskimo today) 5-6 different terrier breeds and a shitload of mixbreeds. Still have to put the GSD on top for a great all round dog.
> ...


haha 
I really love the terriers too Bob.I wish that I had found them when i was younger and skipped all the rodeo and eventing. I love trialling with working border collies more than anything I've ever done but don't like border collies as much as terriers. 

This young GSD i have now is a grand fellow and I'm hoping that when and if I'm able to get going in ring that he'll fill the hole in my heart left by some of my favorite terriers. I do have to say that Bob Solimini's wee dog Stitch (wee in stature only!) reminds me of my favorite terrier. Well, excpet that Stitch has a great out and well I couldn't beat my Fergus off quarry. The only way he left it is if we killed it or pulled him off.:smile:


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