# Picking a Puppy



## Dan Thi (Mar 26, 2017)

I wasn't quite sure where to post this...

I will be 'Picking' my puppy from a litter in a few weeks. I was wondering if you guys could give me some advice or tips on what to look for in a strong, confident, drive-y puppy?

I have expressed my desire for training in IPO/Schutzhund and I'm sure the breeder will have some good input for me. But any extra information I can have before going won't hurt!

I have last male pick of Litter A, with the option of choosing a puppy from Litter B (if a puppy from the second litter shows to have more potential?) Both parents, of both litters are CKC or AKC titled with similar builds and penn hip scores. 

So are there certain things I can check about how the puppy looks and behaves when I get there? (I'm sure the breeder has been keeping an eye on how the puppies have been acting.)


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

If the breeder has been doing it for a while they can best fit a puppy to an owner. 

Just don't go overboard on telling what your looking for. 

Pick of the litter means different things to different people. :wink:


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## Jeremy White (Sep 23, 2016)

I just got my second puppy. O told my contact what I was looking for and she relayed that to our breeder. He decided which puppy best fit my needs. He hit the nail on the head for me.


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

It would help if you have the opportunity to see other litters before your choice comes up. Puppies have personalities all their own. Even from the same dam and sire. I had pick of my breeder's litter for my last working dog. When I made my choice the breeder asked me why I chose that one. I outlined my reasons and the guy told me that no hunter would have selected that puppy because the puppy spent "to much time with me". But he showed lots of traits I liked. Inquisitive, timex-watch behavior (never stopped ticking) and willing to try new things and charge into stuff to see what it was all about. I ended up with a confident, cooperative partner.

Talk with the breeder, see if he can demonstrate puppy behaviors with another litter and how that can play into what you want to do with them. Then look at all the males of the A litter. Yes, you get the last pick but look at all of them. Select the one you would like to have and which one you would not want under any circumstances. Then see which one is left at the end. You could be surprised and end up with your primary pick. Or your worst one. If the worst one, then make the decision if you will wait for the next litter. Be aware that the next litter could end up all females or have only one or two males. The Lowest males of a high male litter may be better than a litter with no selection at all.


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## Dan Thi (Mar 26, 2017)

Thanks for the advice guys. Sarah good point, just as Bob said, pick of the litter can be something different to everyone - I may just get the boy I want! Litter B occurred at a similar time, so I would not be waiting if I chose that route. 
Jeremy, hopefully mine is just a good a match maker .

...The wait is killing me, I want him! haha.


I heard someone say to visit around feeding time? Is that something worth doing, or does it not make a huge difference?


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

if your talking about nursing off mom I'd say no.

That can be very stressful on mom and that can pass on to the pups.

Feeding all together may show what pup is top dog or the most submissive IN THAT LITTER but it really doesn't show a lot about out in the world.

I like to take each pup individually out to an area where they don't have the mom's or the littermates influence. 

Depends on the age of course. 

I've known most of the breeders I've gotten pups from in the past 30-40 yrs so I've had the advantage or being able to spend time watching the pups from 3-4 weeks on. 

I know what I'm looking for but in a new owner's case getting to know the breeder can be huge.


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## shelle fenton (Sep 24, 2015)

Ive now got my pup. Yes the waiting is agony. 2 and half years it took me to get this pup. 

Imagine: few kennels. Limited suitable breeders. Most pups, bred, when needed, sold before conceived. Getting a "choice" was not option, you were allocated a pup. It was then a yes/no thanks choice. My original "ideal, highest recommendations and titles, have bred a litter out of that bitch for 3 consecutive seasons. Perhaps other opinions of 'ethical' breeding are different to mine. Clearly the most famous malinois breeder in Australia, believes this is fine.


I set out, for a male malinois. I have a female gsd  

I learnt NOT to take anything a breeder tells me, as fact. I learnt the hard way. But im happy with my present pup so all good in the end.

I am in a position, of watching 4 of the pups develop as we all go to club. And whilst all the pups had all the total package for all 3 disciplines of IPO. They were only 50% of the 'team'. And the humans, have had a vastly different set of outcomes with each of their pups.


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Will echo Shelle, don't totally take the breeder at their word unless you have a long term relationship with them. The old adage: let the buyer beware, applies here. The breeder of wmy orking dog #6 flat out lied to me on numerous occasions. Yes, I got a nice dog but things would have been less stressful if I had been told the truth straight out. The breeder's initial pick for me didn't pass my puppy tests. They had gushed on and on about how this was the perfect pick. When I pointed out the faults and moved my selection to the remaining males, then they switched over to how my new pick was the most awesome, spectacular pup. When I ran into allergy issues with the pup, they blamed me for it. I asked about genetic history and was assured of zero issues. I started digging and found out this particular breeding line was "well known" for it. But when I was asking about this kennel (before I bought the pup) and this breeding line I was not made aware of any problems. After I bought the pup, then I started getting the stories. I did all due diligence but was let down by the other breeder folks I was going to for verification.

Personally, I like to spend some time just sitting off to one side watching the group dynamics. Who's the aggressive one, who's the laid back one, who wanders off to investigate, etc. Then I take the one I like off to one side to see how they are by themselves. I listen to the breeder but I tend to pick the one my gut-check likes.


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## Dan Thi (Mar 26, 2017)

Bob, not nursing from the mother, but actually eating Raw. (I'm not sure if they have been weed off their moths yet, I did not ask.) They will be 5 weeks when I meet them for the first time. I suppose to see how they act, and to see who is more drive'y' for food.

I had basically called and emailed every CC breeder within like a 150Mile Radius of me. Some breeders were reluctant to spend very much time talking, other had a quick chat, some refused to send me papers, others acted like they had PennHip papers and then sent me preliminary tests. This breeder spent a good 20 minutes chatting with me on the phone and made sure I had all my questions answered. I asked for test results and was given pictures of both testing, family trees and other information in an email right after the phone call. 
(I even spoke to a different breeder who was asking an Extra $1000, for puppies that were born ~10oz heavier than the others.) 

I was told the pups begin to show their temperaments around 5 weeks and then even more so at 8 weeks. (That seems about right to me.)

Shelle wow did you have a wait! Yeah, handler knowledge is imo. the larger of the two aspects. (Like the diet part of diet and exercise haha.)

As far as puppy behaviour, what are some good things to search for?
- A puppy who seems confident
- One that is Not Afraid of random noises (Clapping, jiggling keys)
- Is not afraid to wander and investigate
- Is attentive to his owner (the breeder)
- How he acts with his littler mates, is he pushy, being pushed, sitting off at the side, in the middle of the pack?
- See how the puppy acts alone, with you? Is he okay alone, is he winey whimpering to find his pack, does he struggle to get away from you if you pick him up? Is he exploring, maybe biting your shoes or pants or trees by you?


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Dan, there's lots of posts and threads on this topics. The thing is what works for one might be a nightmare for another person. As Sarah pointed out then there's "that" side of things where the breeder is concerned, which is particularly pervasive in the molosser world. Deception.

It seems to me that the motivation behind most people who work with those types of dogs often appear to be in direct conflict with the long term wellbeing of the breed. 

Unfortunately, I don't have any advice for you other than that and good luck.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Get a puppy who is breeding for themselves.


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## Dan Thi (Mar 26, 2017)

Thanks Nicole, I appreciates everyones advice. Sarah's experience with her breeder was rather unfortunate and it is sad people are dishonest or lack sincerity. Withholding facts can be just as bad as lying. At least it worked out in the end for you Sarah! 

Right Matt, so much less to worry about haha.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Dan, what Matt said is dead on. Finding a breeder that breeds for himself first is a treasure. 

I was thinking about something… Strong, confident, "drivey" in one breed might translate into something entirely different in another breed. I got that in my mastiff. The dog wasn't good for sport but is an exceptionally well rounded hunting dog and impressive with scent oriented work. I mention this because I didn't get what I wanted - I got what I needed. Unless you are buying from a legitimate (as in verifiable) sport/working oriented breeder, be prepared for this as a possible outcome.

Sounds like either way you will have a puppy soon. BTW, I know you mentioned male but keep your mind open if the right female stands out to you. Impressive working bitches are really something else to see particularly if there's an expression of masculine attributes in them.


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## Dan Thi (Mar 26, 2017)

I agree with that, there is a different level of dedication and attention to detail when you do things for yourself.

You look at kijiji and it's filled with the complete opposite - cash-crops and backyard breeders.

Hmm.. that's interesting. I haven't really thought about getting a female, as I've most usually been with males in the past.

I guess everything is on the table right now, time will tell what lies ahead! I'll Keep you guys updated.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I've had males for the most part in my many dog but I agree with Nicole.

Getting a really good female can be fantastic.

I believe studies have been done and a female that is delivered right after a male and right before another male can be attributed to that "expression of masculine attributes" that Nicole mentioned.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Nicole Stark said:


> Dan, what Matt said is dead on. Finding a breeder that breeds for himself first is a treasure.
> 
> I was thinking about something… Strong, confident, "drivey" in one breed might translate into something entirely different in another breed. I got that in my mastiff. The dog wasn't good for sport but is an exceptionally well rounded hunting dog and impressive with scent oriented work. I mention this because I didn't get what I wanted - I got what I needed. Unless you are buying from a legitimate (as in verifiable) sport/working oriented breeder, be prepared for this as a possible outcome.
> 
> *Sounds like either way you will have a puppy soon. BTW, I know you mentioned male but keep your mind open if the right female stands out to you. Impressive working bitches are really something else to see particularly if there's an expression of masculine attributes in them.*


They are also more important in the bigger picture, it's my number one motivator as a "breeder" the very reason I used Tilly for one litter and Sali for the next is because they are both very strong females with masculine attributes but have suitable female traits to be "female", I'm pretty sure I could have used any old male within reason and the pups would have turned out suitable for work. 

Re:breeders who lie about their dogs/pups.
I don't understand why people do this, it will always bite them on the ass eventually.


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

Both of my dogs were picked for me by their breeders. For my Mal, I was given a choice of one male pup, (I wanted a female), take him or leave him. I have no idea if I would have picked a different pup from his litter, they all looked identical, and seemed very alike in temperament - a scrambling, swirling mass of puppies. I liked the adult dogs the breeder showed me, and hoped that was typical of what I could expect my pup to become. 

I had a better idea of what I wanted with my Dutchie, but I still bought her sight unseen from Logan Haus. I talked to Mike, told him what I wanted - capable of schutzhund, social, not handler hard, not from dog aggressive lines, and female. He picked the litter and the pup for me. Because of where she came from and his reputation, I expected a solid, stable temperament on top of that. Would I have picked a different pup if I'd had a choice? Who knows. 

When looking at dogs, sometimes for me, it's hard to quantify exactly why I like one dog over another. I think sometimes its best to just go with your gut and just pick the one that you really like.


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## Dan Thi (Mar 26, 2017)

Matt Vandart said:


> Re:breeders who lie about their dogs/pups.
> I don't understand why people do this, it will always bite them on the ass eventually.


IKR, it's the 'make a quick buck' mindset. Make as much money as fast as possible and without regard towards your results, versus, making less money but priding yourself in your work. (I never quite understood how someone can proudly put their name on a kennel, portray themselves are responsible, yet be the complete opposite.)

Leslie did you have a prior background with Mike, or did you decide to just trust him?
Ps. Are you a member of the Y.R.Schutz.Club.? I feel like I might have met you there...(haha sorry, names take me a little while to get.) Hopefully I can come out again soon, I had a great time chatting with you guys!


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Matt Vandart said:


> Re:breeders who lie about their dogs/pups.
> I don't understand why people do this, it will always bite them on the ass eventually.


The breed warden contacted me about this kennel on another habit of theirs. I forwarded them all the email traffic on THAT problem and the mis-information over the allergy issue. I don't know what happened but that kennel is no longer advertised and is "taking a break" from breeding although they are still listed as members of the organization.


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

Dan, I had no prior relationship with Mike, though he used to post here quite a bit. Almost everything I had heard about him was positive and he guaranteed the working ability and health of his dogs. 

Wasn't me you met, lol. I'm not a member of a club any more. Right now, both my dogs are retired (8 yrs and 12 yrs) and I'm not yet ready to take on a pup and start over. One day, maybe. 

Ontario Regionals are this weekend at Capital City SC. I'd like to go, but probably won't be able to.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Bob Scott said:


> I've had males for the most part in my many dog but I agree with Nicole.
> 
> Getting a really good female can be fantastic.
> 
> *I believe studies have been done and a female that is delivered right after a male and right before another male can be attributed to that "expression of masculine attributes" that Nicole mentioned.*


That is very interesting


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

leslie cassian said:


> Both of my dogs were picked for me by their breeders. For my Mal, I was given a choice of one male pup, (I wanted a female), take him or leave him. I have no idea if I would have picked a different pup from his litter, they all looked identical, and seemed very alike in temperament - a scrambling, swirling mass of puppies. I liked the adult dogs the breeder showed me, and hoped that was typical of what I could expect my pup to become.
> 
> *I had a better idea of what I wanted with my Dutchie, but I still bought her sight unseen from Logan Haus. I talked to Mike, told him what I wanted - capable of schutzhund, social, not handler hard, not from dog aggressive lines, and female. He picked the litter and the pup for me. Because of where she came from and his reputation, I expected a solid, stable temperament on top of that. Would I have picked a different pup if I'd had a choice? Who knows.*
> 
> When looking at dogs, sometimes for me, it's hard to quantify exactly why I like one dog over another. I think sometimes its best to just go with your gut and just pick the one that you really like.


Sorry to seem ignorant Leslie but is that what you got?


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

Matt, yes, I got what I asked for. I didn't do as much with her as I should have, but did get a BH. Her bitework was good, she has a good attitude for work, and is fine with dogs and people. She's a bit quirky and weird at times, and not as cuddly as I would have liked, but otherwise a good dog.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Hey Leslie if you are looking for cuddly, how about I send you the snipe? She'll give you cuddly and whiplash all at the same time. It's a thing of beauty I tell ya!


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

I've gotten better at dodging the face smashers after a few black eyes and a nose that has felt like it was broken. You can keep your snipe. 

My princess is all over my boyfriend and will climb over me to give him kisses, but slinks off to her room if I want to hug her. She's a weirdo for sure.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

I had a cat that did that. Bitch.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I've never personally met Mike Suttle but I've had many conversations with him both here and other places.

I do know a couple of people that have gotten puppies from Mike and I can say he's got excellent dogs.

I have no doubt in my mind that he could select a puppy/dog to fit anyone.

Many of then may be more dog then most want or maybe can handle but owning one from Mike would be a dream for me and I've trained dogs since I was a kid in the 50s. 

His training methods are also the best Operate Conditioning can offer.

His use of marker training with pups is amazing.

Lots of his videos on YOUTUBE.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

leslie cassian said:


> Matt, yes, I got what I asked for. I didn't do as much with her as I should have, but did get a BH. Her bitework was good, she has a good attitude for work, and is fine with dogs and people. She's a bit quirky and weird at times, and not as cuddly as I would have liked, but otherwise a good dog.


That is excellent 

Bob yes, that's why I asked.


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## Dan Thi (Mar 26, 2017)

I owe you guys at least one pic don't I? 
(It wasn't me in the picture, so I blurred out the background.)
But here's my boy! @~5weeks.


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Nice. Big even at 5 weeks.


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## Dan Thi (Mar 26, 2017)

Haha yeah he's pretty dense lol, his body is like a hippo hehe. I'm expecting him to be a 130lb'er. His mother was 125lb and father was 145lb, I believe he takes after his mother. 

We took him out of his pen with all his litter-mates and he was exploring head up butt wagging. He was in front of his mother and some other adults (they were behind a fence) and he went sniffed and wagged his butt, and even though they were barking he still trotted over to me when I called him. (It did take some extreme enthusiasm though, the dogs were rather distracting.) He's already been exposed to lots of handling and gun fire so thats a great start.


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## Gina Mezin (Mar 8, 2016)

Loving the coloring Dan. Thanks for sharing. Enjoy!


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