# KNPV Long attacks



## Alex Scott (Jun 16, 2013)

I don't know the intricacies of the KNPV rules and I have no intention of finding them out. 

I watch videos and it seems a majority of KNPV Long Attacks involve the dog engaging on a decoy who is running away... 

I don't think any judgments can be made about strength when the decoy is running away on long attacks. To often I have seen dogs that look great when the helper is running away but its a different story when the helper holds ground and faces the dog. 

Are there many attacks where the helper is still facing the dog?


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Alex Scott said:


> I don't know the intricacies of the KNPV rules and I have no intention of finding them out.
> 
> I watch videos and it seems a majority of KNPV Long Attacks involve the dog engaging on a decoy who is running away...
> 
> ...


Face/stick attack is the hardest attack since its the decoy coming at the dog as he screams and also getting the stick hit from shoulder to ass. This is the most important attack scenario in trials. If the dog does not pass this test he will not be allowed to continue the trial. 

For PH1 the stick/face attack is the only attack with the decoy facing the dog and running into the dog. The bike attack is from the back on the leg, the throw attack is from the back on the arm or leg, the recall is on the back and no biting is allowed (obviously) and the fake attack is a non attack scenario where the picture of the face attack is given without the decoy moving into the dog and throwing away the stick and the dog is to guard the decoy and not bite. 

There is also the object guard where the dog is facing the decoy before the decoy tries to remove the object. 

I will say this, you do not have any interests in finding out the intricacies of the program but you do have a judgement on the program. Get to know what the program is about so you can form a better judgement on the program and the dogs that are participating.  

I do agree however that a back attack is not putting as much pressure on a dog as a front attack does.


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Alex Scott said:


> I don't know the intricacies of the KNPV rules and I have no intention of finding them out.
> 
> I watch videos and it seems a majority of KNPV Long Attacks involve the dog engaging on a decoy who is running away...
> 
> ...


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## Alex Scott (Jun 16, 2013)

Alice Bezemer said:


> Face/stick attack is the hardest attack since its the decoy coming at the dog as he screams and also getting the stick hit from shoulder to ass. This is the most important attack scenario in trials. If the dog does not pass this test he will not be allowed to continue the trial.
> 
> For PH1 the stick/face attack is the only attack with the decoy facing the dog and running into the dog. The bike attack is from the back on the leg, the throw attack is from the back on the arm or leg, the recall is on the back and no biting is allowed (obviously) and the fake attack is a non attack scenario where the picture of the face attack is given without the decoy moving into the dog and throwing away the stick and the dog is to guard the decoy and not bite.
> 
> ...


Hi Alice, 

My response is in two parts. 

1- Back attacks 
2 - Response to your backhanded comments

1 ) Thanks for that explanation. The 'back attack' attack puts almost no pressure on the dog. Recently, when we were working on courage tests, I saw a dog that hit like a train when the helper was running away, crazy launch. But on the long attack when the helper was still, facing the dog, forget slowing down, this thing almost came to a complete stop, then jumped. Plenty of dogs look fantastic doing courage tests Glisnik style but its not the same when you do it properly. 

2) It's no wonder this forum is considered trolly, almost everyone is a culprit is varying degrees and you are another example. I train IPO and I don't have all the intricacies of that figured out, no one does or there would be consistent 100 point performances in all phases. Hence, IPO is where my focus will be on the forceable future. 

I am able to make a judgment a dog sport as I train in dog sport. Those in the KNPV chose to display 'back attacks' with the most regularity on the tape. I have seen the exercise with the stick you speak of but seldom in comparison. Sure, there are people like you who more about the topic than I do. But as a fellow dog sporter I can make judgments. 

I am thinking there may be an issue with the image that your sport projects that makes fellow dog sporters into thinking that 'back attacks' which put limited pressure on the dog are what the KNPV is about. At the same time, there is a lot of talk on the internet about how strong KNPV dogs are but it sure is hard to see through all these back attacks. Hence why I started the thread.


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## Alex Scott (Jun 16, 2013)

Christopher Jones said:


> Alex Scott said:
> 
> 
> > I don't know the intricacies of the KNPV rules and I have no intention of finding them out.
> ...


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## Marcel Winter (Mar 29, 2013)

Alex Scott said:


> Hi Alice,
> 
> My response is in two parts.
> 
> ...



Maybe you looking to many videos for judging KNPV it will be better for you if you visting Holland one day doing some decoy work for a while than we 
can talk serious to each other.:razz:


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## jack van strien (Apr 9, 2009)

Alex you have no idea what you are talking about!
It takes a lot of commitment on the dogs part to even go the 100 meter distance to engage a helper.
The face attack has changed a bit over the years but the pressure is still there.
The face attack is the most important excersize of all and if the dog fails also the handler and even the whole club loses face.But if the dog passes this test what else would you want the dog to prove?

Going back to dogs being sold ,a lot of great dogs are staying in Holland and are spoken for already by the Dutch Police or Army.People are always scouting for good dogs and agreements are made before they are certified.
Almost all of the KNPV members are doing it as a hobby only,if they were to charge the actual cost of training the dog, the prices would more than double .
On the other hand, agood friend of mine only buys problem dogs from other handlers.Most of these dogs have already had a few owners but he has no problem with difficult dogs.
He does not even bother teaching the recall,all he wants is to get a certificate so he can sell the dog.

It is interesting to see this thread has many views but not many opinions so far,i hope we will get some more input.


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Alex Scott said:


> Hi Alice,
> 
> My response is in two parts.
> 
> ...


Let me try and be as gentle and sweet as possible in my reply to you....

If I wanted to give a backhanded response then I would have said something along the lines of 

"Are you trying to overtake Michael Murphy in the stupid question department?" 

but I didn't do that. I decided to tell you which exercises there were and to tell you that you should also look into the program itself before making a judgement on it....

You do not wish to take in the intracacies of the sports so there is no way you can accurately know the hows and whats of the sports, the dogs or the character they have to show to pass each and every exercise.... and yes your stupid question proves that. 

Yep, thats me being backhanded now... I just thought I'd point it out to you in case you missed that part. 

[-X


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Alex Scott said:


> Christopher Jones said:
> 
> 
> > Maybe you should read it again.
> ...


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## Michael Murphy (Nov 27, 2010)

Alice Bezemer said:


> Let me try and be as gentle and sweet as possible in my reply to you....
> 
> If I wanted to give a backhanded response then I would have said something along the lines of
> 
> ...


i have thick skin and a thick D as well


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

Christopher posted the most direct answer yet, and to see the reason why all you have to do is REread the first line in your post :
"I don't know the intricacies of the KNPV rules and I have no intention of finding them out."
... in addition to expressing a good degree of laziness, it's downright RUDE when you finish the post by asking a WHY question ](*,)

agree it might be interesting to discuss the pros/cons of the various KNPV send outs, but NOT to someone who states up front that they have no intention of finding them out for themselves

also one who thinks there is such a thing as a stupid question and this fits my criteria to a tee
- please don't call this backhanded too .... consider it direct, and if you are willing to apologize for being a bit rude i'd consider that a good start


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## Mark Herzog (Aug 22, 2013)

Alex Scott said:


> I don't know the intricacies of the KNPV rules and I have no intention of finding them out.
> 
> I watch videos and it seems a majority of KNPV Long Attacks involve the dog engaging on a decoy who is running away...
> 
> ...


I've read and re-read this post several times... I've also read all of the responses twice. I'd like to make two comments:

1 - I didn't find the original post in any way offensive. He made no attack on KNPV (at least not that I saw in that first post) and simply said he wasn't looking to learn the intricacies of KNPV (fair enough)... He asked a simple question: _Are there many attacks where the helper is still facing the dog?_ All that was needed was a simple answer: *Yes there are.*

2 - It seemed that the KNPV people took immediate offence to the question and assumed it was an attack on KNPV in general. As an outsider so to speak, I personally didn't read it that way and even on subsequent re-reads I can't see that interpretation. The animosity (from the OP) came later as a reply to Alice and Christopher's comments. This seems to happen a lot on this Forum... Certainly not isolated to KNPV... We all seem guilty of it at one time or another. It's unfortunate because it really does detract from the exchange of ideas and information.


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## Austin Porter (Oct 14, 2011)

I think the knpv stick attack is the most impressive "test of courage" of all dog sports. PSA is up there to because of the distractions. I'm not a dog sport guy but I can appreciate all the hard work that goes into getting a dog trial ready. On a side note... I bet most knpv dogs could handle the IPO courage test with a little target work. I'm not sure you could make say the same for a dog going from IPO to knpv. Just my .02

http://youtu.be/VBsWQYLMnw4


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## Marcel Winter (Mar 29, 2013)

Austin Porter said:


> I think the knpv stick attack is the most impressive "test of courage" of all dog sports. PSA is up there to because of the distractions. I'm not a dog sport guy but I can appreciate all the hard work that goes into getting a dog trial ready. On a side note... I bet most knpv dogs could handle the IPO courage test with a little target work. I'm not sure you could make say the same for a dog going from IPO to knpv. Just my .02
> 
> http://youtu.be/VBsWQYLMnw4


 I think this one is better with Ivo is more training.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-6Ig0mItj0o


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Actually I took no offense and explained the exercises in knpv as well as suggest that getting info on the intracacies of knpv would give a better understanding. There was absolutely nothing backhanded or sarcastic about my reply and I even agreed in part with his view. 

Hell! I even posted a frikkin winky emo for him!

If he then decides to feel offended and post an idiot reply I will oblige him and treat him accordingly.....





Mark Herzog said:


> I've read and re-read this post several times... I've also read all of the responses twice. I'd like to make two comments:
> 
> 1 - I didn't find the original post in any way offensive. He made no attack on KNPV (at least not that I saw in that first post) and simply said he wasn't looking to learn the intricacies of KNPV (fair enough)... He asked a simple question: _Are there many attacks where the helper is still facing the dog?_ All that was needed was a simple answer: *Yes there are.*
> 
> 2 - It seemed that the KNPV people took immediate offence to the question and assumed it was an attack on KNPV in general. As an outsider so to speak, I personally didn't read it that way and even on subsequent re-reads I can't see that interpretation. The animosity (from the OP) came later as a reply to Alice and Christopher's comments. This seems to happen a lot on this Forum... Certainly not isolated to KNPV... We all seem guilty of it at one time or another. It's unfortunate because it really does detract from the exchange of ideas and information.


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## Austin Porter (Oct 14, 2011)

Yes sir... That was good stuff Marcel! I think Berry II even makes an appearance in that one lol


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## Sander Meegdes (Aug 26, 2013)

Alex Scott said:


> I don't know the intricacies of the KNPV rules and I have no intention of finding them out.
> 
> I watch videos and it seems a majority of KNPV Long Attacks involve the dog engaging on a decoy who is running away...
> 
> ...


*Yes there are*

When the decoy is running away you test a high drive dog on his obedience to stay with you till he gets the command "stellen". So in all aspects those exercises are hard to learn and requires alot of dedication and time.

Anymore questions just send me a PM.


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