# to trial or not to trial, that's the question?



## Annika Friberg (Mar 27, 2009)

The place where I go to herd has a ranch trial on New Year's Day - my trainer thinks I'm ready to participate on the started-level but I'm hesitant.

We're supposed to take 10 heads of sheep around parts of a started A course - the Y, the Z and the open pen. Ulfie can do all of that but has only done it with 5 when we've been training. 

Then take the 10 heads through three gates into another area - shouldn't be a problem, pen 5 - also not a problem

But then I have to take the five remaining ones through the maltese cross from two directions and I have only done that once: today. And only in one direction.

Then get the 5 that are penned out again and take the 10 back through the three gates to the first area. 

It's several new elements for us. And a longer course than we have ever done in the past. We have worked ten heads before - Ulfie finds it a bit intimidating but last time we did it, he handled it relatively well (he tends to dive more when there's more sheep funnily enough - maybe to assert himself).

Lots of people watching and my nerves will probably play tricks on me.

So what do I do? Do I wait (there are some training sessions that day as well for people who are not ready to trial)? Or do I just do my best and hope to get through the course?

There's nothing to loose really - except my dignity, my confidence, and maybe a couple of bones if things go really wrong. :?:


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## Tanith Wheeler (Jun 5, 2009)

You've answered your own question there... you'll probably never know if you're ready until you try.
However if you haven't practiced certain elements... herding is one of the few sports where failure can damage a dogs confidence. Could your dog handle that?


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

I'd say skip this one until you have more confidence in you and the dog. Have your trainer set up training ranch courses or work this one as training. Then after you are proficient, then trial with the next one. Get Ulf comfy and confident with sheep before trialing. More sheep, more pressure. Until he could handle the sheep's pressure more and didn't worrry about his ability to move/control them, I wouldn't really think about trialing. I may start my dogs as puppies but their first trials are when they are 3. I trial them then in all the started courses for ASCA, AHBA and AKC.

Terrasita


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

You have to do it sometime. Your trainer probably sees something you don't. 

Good luck with your decision, and I have never herded before. 

I have been around a bunch of people that think they aren't ready to trial, and they are. Don't let it be nerves that stop you, no matter what.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Annika

Go for it, especially if your trainer thinks you're ready.
The worse that happens is you don't pass and then it's a 
"learning experience" Nobody ever titled a dog from the sidelines. When and where will the trial be held and by who?


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Insay go ahead and give it a whirl or next time you will find another reason to not do it. No better way to find your weak spots, if there really are any, than jumping in and giving it a try. First time jitters.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

There's nothing to loose really - except my dignity said:


> Annika,
> 
> Its that bones part and the dog's future trialing mentality that we worry most about. What's the allotted time on the course and how reliable are Ulf's stops at the gate and with the sorts? I run some fairly difficult courses and I actually pulled my next level 3 run after my dog's stellar performance in one trial a few years ago. Why? A paw wrong and either me, the dog or both were toast. They were take the dog/handler out kinda sheep. It was waayyyy to stressful getting through the first run.
> 
> ...


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## Timothy Saunders (Mar 12, 2009)

If you have new elements that you haven't practiced I wouldn't do it. when You are trialling for the first time you normally make enough mistakes to help the dog fail even when the dog is good. a person with trial experience could at least help the dog some in the trial.(little cheats)


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Trust your trainer as she is the one watching you and the dog personally.


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

It also very much depends on the confidence your dogs has. A bad experience with bad sheep or things going wrong for a first time trial with some dogs can be damaging and take time to fix.

In our trialing system we have non point scoring trials where in novice you can invite an experienced handler in with you. We also have an encourage event session at trials where you can do the same.

My dogs are 15 months old and I am in no hurry to trial them, possibly will also wait till they are around 3 although I will probably take them in non point scoring novice and encourage trials where I can have the benefit of a top handler working with us through the course.

Do you have any events where this is an option? 

You know your dog and how he may react to certain things. Sheep are the wild card and sometimes you can get nice sheep, other times they definitely have the potential to do damage. Maybe make an assessment on the day and dont be afraid to ask to retire if things are going pear shaped to protect your dog.


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## Annika Friberg (Mar 27, 2009)

Thanks all for your input! 

To clarify (which I didn't do the first time around), it's just a jackpot fun trial so nothing too too serious. The sheep, judge and people around are all known entities. And the time is not an issue unless we want to win (but that's not what I'd aim for, just to get through the entire course without making a fool of ourselves).

Still, broken bones are always broken bones and more people than normal (normally, it's just us) means that my nerves might act up, however much I tell myself that it doesn't really matter. And I still haven't run that course.

Tanith, yes, part of why I'm asking myself is because I don't really want to set the dog up for failure particularly as things are going really well with him and herding. It's really not worth it if it would create stress for us both around future competition situations because of too much pressure too soon.

Terrasita, in 85-90% of the cases Ulf has a very good stop. I'm also not so worried about the gates - he know how to do those, we do them all the time, also with ten to twenty. However, ten sheep breaking for the draw is a situation where his stop is not foolproof: then he might swirl them or attempt to push them all back on top of me (a little too enthusiastically). And he might try to squeeze them through the obstacles if there are more of them than usual or I'm wound up.

Don, that's what I was thinking about it when I thought I might just go ahead and do it. It is, after all, a relatively small and "safe" event and good to find out something about competition nerves and weak spots compared to in a real trial with sheep and judges we don't know and more at stake. I learned a ton just from doing the HT (mostly about my nerves). And we could of course just withdraw if it felt like things were going radically wrong. So that's the other side of the argument.

What I might do is to go out in the morning and see how we feel on that particular day. We might even be able to do a practice session right before which would give me a chance perhaps to run the course or at least the parts that I'm not too sure about and then make the decision.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

I'm not a trial junkie in any venue really, but one thing to think about is that you really don't want to set your dog up for failure. They'll know it if you send them into a situation they can't handle. I think you want to send your dog into a trial thinking he/she's going to kick butt and take names like no big thing. It's also a situation where they can start bad habits. It's one thing to be nervous when you can do it, but just need to get up the nerve, but another to be unprepared. I've been told to enter a trial when I probably shouldn't have. Not much fun watching the dog struggle cause they just didn't have experience, even in a pretty friendly venue like dock diving. Someone has a great signature (can't remember who, sorry) that says "train hard, trial easy." That's good advice. Have fun if you do try it and you'll learn something either way. :smile: But if it is just kind of a fun event, go for it.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Annika Friberg said:


> Thanks all for your input!
> 
> To clarify (which I didn't do the first time around), it's just a jackpot fun trial so nothing too too serious. The sheep, judge and people around are all known entities. And the time is not an issue unless we want to win (but that's not what I'd aim for, just to get through the entire course without making a fool of ourselves).
> 
> ...


I know this is a gigantic leap from the test classes. But if you took your time and thought of it as an assessment, it might not be a bad thing to do. But still if the dog feeds at all to the handler nerves and there are elements not familiar to you and the dog as a team, I'd wait after using this one as a practice. He's YOUNG and I'd school him along some before doing stuff like this. 

On another note, why would ten sheep be booking toward the draw out of the dog's control. Dogs do know when it hasn't gone right and when you don't have a plan. I'll readily admit that I'm cautious and I don't like going in unprepared. These days I not only train for doing it right but how do we salvage it if it goes wrong.

T


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

The only way to control your nerves is to buck up and jump in. If you don't, it doesn't matter if your first trial is two years from now, you will still be a nervous wreck. Personally, I never worry if the dog can handle different situations, if the dog is meant to trial, the dog will do fine. Your trainer is the one you should be listening to because the trainer knows the dog through experience. If the trainer says the dog is ready for this, it probably is because if it isn't, the dog isn't going to make the trainer look any to good either Good luck.


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## Annika Friberg (Mar 27, 2009)

> On another note, why would ten sheep be booking toward the draw out of the dog's control.


I think it happens because either I loose focus on the sheep and focus too much on the dog (common newbie mistake, right) or because he goes off contact - and going off contact either happens because I shut him down too much or because of distance, but also because he tends to turn on and off. I think, like we've talked about before that he is a bit spoiled by these sticky sheep so when they're not so sticky anymore, he's caught off guard.

There are also times when he decides to swirl them just for fun (he gets bored with walking) and they decide that I'm not a particularly safe person to stick with.

Sara, this is an event kind of like that in that it's a fun trial - though I can't bring an experienced handler in with me but I do think that the judge who is local and whom we've met might step in and help out in a tricky situation - that's something I could go and find out on the day itself though.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Annika,

This is what I'm concerned about. I think you have been trial training and not fundamentals training. Ulf needs to know how to control livestock and you need to learn how and when to back off controlling him. You guys don't have the mental part of it down right in training. Get rid of the gimme sheep and take him out for walkabouts where he is responsible for the sheep and you just walk and turn without saying anyting to him. Only when my dogs are proficient at doing this do I begin the control work on them. He has to learn through trial and error where to be to achieve balance and control of his stock. You can't tell him everything and place him on coordinates. Some trainers get off on downing and stopping the dog. Meanwhile, you don't have a dog that really controls his stock. You are either relying on drop and drift or gimme sheep that will follow the handler regardless. 

If he is running hot and cold in training and doing displacement behaviors/shutting down, I certainly wouldn't trial him until I had that problem licked. Trial pressures will only make it worse. 

T


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

I have to agree with T on the over-control. I have seen so many dogs screwed up totally because the handler can't keep quiet. If you taight the dog the job, keep quiet and let them do it or they seldom become really proficient. When I went to the field nationals I had never even been a bystander at a field trial. My dogs had never been around multitudes of people and dogs. Odin was running the fir track when, about halfway through, the tracking judge turned to me and commented that I was the only person he had ever tracked with that wasn't constantly telling the dog what to do. He noted that I hadn't said a word since we started. I simply told him I couldn't smell or see the track and the dog has done this many times. You have to leave some things up the instinct the dog was bred for or you will always just have a trained dog. The dog probably knows just what to be done and the handler just confuses the situation by shouting orders. I still thini you should give it a shot and let the dog do it's job. Tell him what you want done and then be quiet. He will do or he won't. The dog will surprize you.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Trial training and control can really screw with things. I found this out working a dog for a title for someone else. He was screwed down with the control a tad early in his training for the trial. One of my favorite judges shook her finger at me for that. You have to keep it in balance. For his next training session, I said to hell with the rote training. He was rearing to go and bolted at the gate. I could've downed and scolded. He has a gorgeous snappy lie down in drive/motion. But that wasn't going to get the sheep back and I wasn't going to get them. Meanwhile the sheep took off for the other end with him in pursuit. I yelled out to him that since he was so rearing to go and made them bolt I expected him to bring them back. The spectators were a little surprised when I turned my back to finish getting the big gate opened. I hadn't "trained" him for a distance outrun and gather and he could have screwed it up royally. He ran straight at first and then at some point he kicked himself out and around and got the entire group. As they got within 30 feet of the gate, he put the breaks on. I closed the gate, brought him in and sent him down the alleyway to pen them in the round pen. He hadn't been trained for that alley way either which can be disaster for some. He was having a ball. I am known for letting a dog figure it out. I don't care if there's splits or he runs tight, etc. If the dog has instinctive gather, he will work to figure out how to put them back together. After doing this, he won't let them or cause a split again. I make it his responsibility not me saying put a paw here and put a paw there. Dogs don't like chaos. Split sheep are chaos. Nor do I think they like to have "fun." Herding dogs want order and control.

T


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

I would definitely agree with the above. I have gone from trying to control my young hot head to just doing miles of walking without saying much at all. It is amazing what a difference it is starting to make. I love watching him start to make good decisions about where he should be and where to break out himself and also what to do if he splits them and the sheep decide to go in different directions. His instincts are all there he just has to figure out how best to use them.

I went to a training day some months ago and an experienced handler and sheep farmer there told me to just let him figure it out and that a well bred dog shouldnt need to be trained in what comes naturally, you are better off letting them figure a lot of it out.

I think only when we have done many miles more walking will I think about going further with his trial training.


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## Tony McCallum (May 26, 2009)

Lets say someone buys the place next door, it has a new set of yards etc for your dog, you get 10 sheep dropped of there (up to now you only had 5) You have to go over and work the sheep, what do you do ?
You do the best you can ! 
If you go about a trial properly , the dog does not know it is a trial. It is just another job, it doesnt know it is being judged , or even what the job is . If you do the best you can , work with the dog , you will go how you go, your attitide is the only thing that tells the dog he failed, so that is up to you.
My grandfather once told me , if you want your boomerang to come back, first you have to throw it.
Git er done , is my advice and enjoy it Tony


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## Annika Friberg (Mar 27, 2009)

Good advice, all of it - on why to trial and why not to, and on keeping quiet and walking more.

Not that I'm much wiser on what to do but I will certainly see if we can do more walking and to try to keep quieter in training. 

I absolutely like control so trying to over-control a situation will be part of anything I do and any challenges to come to terms with


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Tony McCallum said:


> Lets say someone buys the place next door, it has a new set of yards etc for your dog, you get 10 sheep dropped of there (up to now you only had 5) You have to go over and work the sheep, what do you do ?
> You do the best you can !
> If you go about a trial properly , the dog does not know it is a trial. It is just another job, it doesnt know it is being judged , or even what the job is . If you do the best you can , work with the dog , you will go how you go, your attitide is the only thing that tells the dog he failed, so that is up to you.
> My grandfather once told me , if you want your boomerang to come back, first you have to throw it.
> Git er done , is my advice and enjoy it Tony


Tony, interestingly enough that is almost exactly what happened to me. I have 5 dog broke sheep that I use on my young dogs to start. I got another 5 out of another flock and had to get them to my training flock and paddock. I got them separated off with a more experienced dog and decided to use one of my more reliable young dogs to move them across. The sheep challenged her and she ran for home and when I got her back she just chased and then fled again. She is rock solid on my usual dog broke sheep I use although I know she is a timid dog. She wasnt ready for new sheep and the new situation. I think I have actually set her back quite substantially and will need to do a lot more work with her. 

I got my other youngster who has nerves of steel and is he did a reasonable job I must say and wasnt put off at all.

Ones attitude in a trial situation can be vastly different from a normal situation - you have nerves, new sheep and a judge and spectators. One of my agility dogs has never performed as well in a trial as she does at home. She is a soft sensitive dog and the whole thing freaks her slightly and it has taken a lot longer to get her there than my extroverted dogs. Lots of proofing.

I think you need to be sure that you and the dog are ready and be prepared to withdraw if things are going pearshaped. I agree you have to start somewhere but with sheep probably not in the deep end. Annika and her dog could well be ready to give it a go. I cant judge from here.

Annika - with the walking, I walk around a big paddock changing directions and observe my dogs. I have been using the above mentioned un dog broke sheep with my BC as they dont run to me like my dog broke sheep. They have presented an interesting challenge for him as I walk off and they dont follow so he has to figure it out. I have noticed that he increasingly able to find the sweet spot. He is also starting to working wider and more calmly and uses his speed appropriately and is starting to break out more and doesnt high speed slice as much. I do steady him occasionaly but I have noticed without me shouting flanking commands he is actually learning to gage it himself and is making good decisions on his own, always bringing the flock towards me, despite them wanting to run from me. His instincts for sheep are better than mine! and his confidence is growing in his ability to read them without me shouting in his ear. I softly say good boy when he makes a good decision and finds the sweet spot.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Are soft, sensitive dogs and dogs that are scared of sheep usually used in herding?


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Joby Becker said:


> Are soft, sensitive dogs and dogs that are scared of sheep usually used in herding?


They are generally not a good choice, which is why I have this little dog. Her previous owner a top trialer couldnt be bothered. She is only 12 months old and has come on in leaps and bounds on the sheep she knows well. Shame really as she has so much natural understanding of where she needs to be in relation to the sheep and me, beautiful to watch on the sheep she knows and is from top working lines. 

Still, like any good dog it generally has to be the whole package and her temperament lets her down. There may still be hope with time and age, will persevere a while longer, otherwise she is doing okay with her agility training - very fast and agile.


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## Annika Friberg (Mar 27, 2009)

> Annika - with the walking, I walk around a big paddock changing directions and observe my dogs. I have been using the above mentioned un dog broke sheep with my BC as they dont run to me like my dog broke sheep. They have presented an interesting challenge for him as I walk off and they dont follow so he has to figure it out. I have noticed that he increasingly able to find the sweet spot. He is also starting to working wider and more calmly and uses his speed appropriately and is starting to break out more and doesnt high speed slice as much. I do steady him occasionaly but I have noticed without me shouting flanking commands he is actually learning to gage it himself and is making good decisions on his own, always bringing the flock towards me, despite them wanting to run from me. His instincts for sheep are better than mine! and his confidence is growing in his ability to read them without me shouting in his ear. I softly say good boy when he makes a good decision and finds the sweet spot.


Makes total sense.

The two things my dog seems to want to do when he is given no directions is first, he wants to stop them entirely. He goes to the head and stops them all....also when I keep moving. My trainer thought it was a control thing with him - as a little guy, he prefers that they stand completely still. 

Also, if we walk and they string out (which they occasionally do if we work ten), he wants to dive towards the middle of the string and split them.

Terrasita, I understand the idea of the dog wanting control but what happens is this - for him, walking along a fence seems to build frustration. Then he either dives from the rear or he stops them from the front. He always want to turn them around and he protests if he has to walk far in one direction (at least on a fence with these sheep) (by far, I mean further than half of the PT arena).

Probably, moving around in a larger pasture with more turns and both on and off the fence would take care of some of that and maybe bring home the idea that we should be able to move them in ALL directions and cover more ground.

If I ask him to hold them, he will do it but he will bark the whole time - and it's not a holding bark, he knows now that he can hold them quietly. It is that insistent "throw the ball! NOW!" bark. When we start moving again, he might dive and it seems to me to be a reaction to being still for too long.


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Annika Friberg said:


> Makes total sense.
> 
> The two things my dog seems to want to do when he is given no directions is first, he wants to stop them entirely. He goes to the head and stops them all....also when I keep moving. My trainer thought it was a control thing with him - as a little guy, he prefers that they stand completely still.
> 
> ...


My boy would also stop them and then stare at them, I just kept walking and finally he got them moving. He still sticks occassionally but is getting much better. I work 10 most of the time and I find if I keep moving in twists and turns he has started rather than diving and slicing to work out wider. Especially as 5 are trying to follow me and 5 are trying to make off in the other direction. You just have to experiment a bit.

I also started working mine along the fence with similar results to what you are describing. I was having to micromanage more than I wanted. When I start driving I will probably work up a laneway. For now the big paddock and walking is working well.

Covering ground is no problem for my long legged BC - It is me that has to walk very fast!

I havent got a solution for the barking - mine are silent workers. My boy will hold sheep very nicely but really at the moment lots of walking, trying to get a good foundation of the basics and develop his natural intincts is the main plan and hopefully the rest will follow.


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## Tony McCallum (May 26, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> Are soft, sensitive dogs and dogs that are scared of sheep usually used in herding?


 Joby they shouldnt be , but are.
You can only know if a dog can handle something if you do it. You can over analyze all you want, but someday you have to do it to find out.
A dog need not know anything is different at a trial if you do not make it so, if at home something seems too much for the dog you stop doing it, no different at the trial. It is only your attitude that makes it so. Really going from one number of sheep to another , or sheep you dont know, or the fact that a Judge is watching should not matter a hill of beans to a working dog. Do your best in preparation of the dog , as you see fit, but you need to push the envelope some day if you want to know what your dog is made of. I certainly dont think it has to be a trial, but you have to push towards your goal , and extend the dog. You cant find its potential if you exist inside a safety net, and if they are not suited then they are not suited.
Tony


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## Kerry Foose (Feb 20, 2010)

I agree with Tony, work is work and the trialing part shouldn't matter. If you want to push yourself and partner with your dog you should take every opportunity you can get to do so...otherwise how will you ever know.
I am a chips fall where they may type of person and I use my dogs in a real way here on my farm, and at neighboring farms, so we have opportunity to have home sheep advantage, but recently I have pushed myself and my dogs to take them to the stock yards and on loading strange sheep. I am glad I threw caution out the window, because my Jack dog has proven to me that he can when the chips are down. He is my right hand man and I would have never known it unless I gave him that chance to show me.
For instance, he had never seen cows before, and my neighbor had an emergency over the summer and I went over to do chores and her cows were out. I sent Jack and he drove them to me and stood his ground with a recalcitrant Holstein with a calf.. he put pressure on her at the right time and turned her through the gate without me saying a word (mostly because I didn't know what to say at that point, lol)
But in the end, I have utter trust in him. I trialed for the first time this past summer, I was a bit nervous, but he was not bothered in the least. The stock was something he had never seen before and he worked very differently and I had to adjust quickly to make it work for me. So you see, the trial isnt the thing that makes you nervous it is the different stock and the challenges they present. so good luck and get video!!!! :razz:
Kerry and the corgi crew
NEPA


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Joby Becker said:


> Are soft, sensitive dogs and dogs that are scared of sheep usually used in herding?


Some of the competition only herders like a very handler sensitive dog because they are easy to manipulate in the pens. 
It's not had to determine who the "real" dogs are but that doesn't always equate to scoring points in some venues of competition. 
Nothing worse then seeing a dog getting punked by stock!


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

I also like to test my dog but not initially in a trial situation. I now know that my BC could take most likely whatever was thrown at him, but I also know it could destroy the confidence of my little kelpie and I need to test and proof her a lot further. 

I like to know I have tested them and myself under real pressure in different situations on different stock before I trial with them They are formost my working dogs at home so I am in no hurry personally and I like to prepare them well. They are young and there are years ahead of them. 

Good luck Annika on whatever you decide!


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Bob Scott said:


> Some of the competition only herders like a very handler sensitive dog because they are easy to manipulate in the pens.
> It's not had to determine who the "real" dogs are but that doesn't always equate to scoring points in some venues of competition.
> Nothing worse then seeing a dog getting punked by stock!


Some of the real old timer stockmen say that the increasing popularity of trials and breeding for dogs that win trials is leading to the reduction in quality of the real working sheepdog.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Sara Waters said:


> Some of the real old timer stockmen say that the increasing popularity of trials and breeding for dogs that win trials is leading to the reduction in quality of the real working sheepdog.



Same thing with the GSD and breeding to top Schutzhund scoring dogs. The score is as much about good training as it is the dog. 
If a person knows what they are looking at you can still see the "real" GSD on the sport field.


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## Tony McCallum (May 26, 2009)

l think in herding trials , like a lot of other fields, it gets more about breeding trainability than ability.
Real stockmen do not have the inclination or time to put in training to cover gaps in ability.
It isnt the trials that ruin dogs , just like it isnt the AKC that has bred ability out of a lot of dogs. It comes down to the individual every time, what they select for, what are their goals and finally if they even have a clue what a real stock dog is.
Titles become a sales pitch, rather than the need to do a hard days work. Others compete for fun and there is no need to have a really useful dog for a social outing. This is where the danger lies in people starting to see a crossover between Herding Trials and selection for real working dogs. The good dogs can do trials for sure, but it is not where you would look for stock dogs. People who use the type of dog you want in a working situation and actually "need" that dog to work is the place to go.
People who play with a dog on x amount of sheep , in x arena on weekends , and will do whatever it takes , for however long to gain a title , they can undo years of working breeding. If they are led to believe that their dog is now a representative of the working dog and promote them as such.
True stockmen wont be misled, but as this trend spreads it has a way of oozing into working breeds.
Trialing is a game people play and should be viewed as just that, if it gets too tough for your dog walk off, no harm , no foul. There is still food on the plate that night, no stock go untreated or miss a sale. It is what it is.
regards Tony


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## Annika Friberg (Mar 27, 2009)

Well, I did "wimp out" of trialing in the end but I went out at lunch and got to do a short training session with Billy Pickel (who also thought I would have been ready to do the trial - he saw us work a month or so ago - and yelled at me for not going through with it). Next time.

Anyway, Billy's comment is that Ulfie has good work ethics, a good stop and wide flanks which he needs to work on more, and that we need to work off the fence and walk around in the open, preferably with a much larger group (15) because he is learning to balance the stock to the fence. That's probably also why I lose the sheep at times.

So that's what we're doing next (apart from working on outruns).


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Tony McCallum said:


> l think in herding trials , like a lot of other fields, it gets more about breeding trainability than ability.
> Real stockmen do not have the inclination or time to put in training to cover gaps in ability.
> It isnt the trials that ruin dogs , just like it isnt the AKC that has bred ability out of a lot of dogs. It comes down to the individual every time, what they select for, what are their goals and finally if they even have a clue what a real stock dog is.
> regards Tony


I have just been reading a book on the working sheepdog by Australian stockman Tully Williams and it really is a good read on all the principles of selecting, breeding and training the real working sheepdog.


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Annika Friberg said:


> Well, I did "wimp out" of trialing in the end but I went out at lunch and got to do a short training session with Billy Pickel (who also thought I would have been ready to do the trial - he saw us work a month or so ago - and yelled at me for not going through with it). Next time.
> 
> Anyway, Billy's comment is that Ulfie has good work ethics, a good stop and wide flanks which he needs to work on more, and that we need to work off the fence and walk around in the open, preferably with a much larger group (15) because he is learning to balance the stock to the fence. That's probably also why I lose the sheep at times.
> 
> So that's what we're doing next (apart from working on outruns).


Sounds like you gained a whole lot more insight into your training and you and Ulfie will be ready to go into the next trial with confidence! Nice to get comments and help from an experienced person who can assess both you and your dog.

I know what you mean about outruns, my youngsters natural tendency is to run straight toward them and then kick really wide before he gets to them. He seems to know the point at which he will spook them and breaks out wide at that point. Mind you I havent really done much work yet in that department.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Annika,

That's what Sara and I have been trying to say---get out in the open for the walkabouts--it instills balance and cover. But we don't give direction to the dog. We just walk and turn. They all want to shut them down at the heads in the beginning. I didn't realize that you were working on the fence. For me and mine--no work on the fence until the dog is proficient out in the open--you'll have a dog that doesn't balance because one side is taken care of for him. For Ulf work on being comfy in the pocket [pressure] would be next on the list. I like at least ten sheep for walk abouts--20-50 is even better. 

I'm kinda like Tony in that the trialing is sort of a game especially depending on which system you are trialing in and the variance in facility sheep. Joby, for sure the sensitive soft dog is what AKC produces because of panic/run sheep that you see at most trials. There's so much emphasis on stopping the dog and not engaging in an arena that isn't big enough for the dog to control them naturally, it isn't a game for a really keen drivey dog until they are really mature in their work. Most people don't want to wait for that. They want the titles and will do just about anything to get them and they want them NOW. I tell them that I don't trial the dog until he's three and don't expect him really up to the advanced work until he' s about five and they look at me like I've grown two heads. In herding more often than not, the hard drivey dog is frowned upon. The sacred cow is the dog that readily moves off pressure and in huge increments. I had a clinician recently tell me that he pretty much plans on having the dog's herding championship with two years of work. Now granted, the dog lives with him and he works it every day and has all the different types of stock to progress it through. Later that same champion level dog gets run off the field by a duck. More questioning and you find out that yes he's worked different breeds of dogs but they were all of the sof mushy type, not the true breed representative. 

I think you have to decided upon goals and how you want to train. There seems to be the titlle to title approach and then striving for and building the finished dog. If you ultimately want an advanced level trial dog then you have to start building that from day one. With the farm chores, I've always done them in a way that didn't contradict what I would need on the trial field because I do trial. Tony's point of view that it shouldn't be any different does make you wonder whether what you thought was trained in the dog really was. Khaldi sure performed much better this fall without me finding zen at the post. I think certain things are finally trained regardless of stock/condtions. I started training for when it went wrong and with different types of stock and with me in different positions on the field and finally even with me in different frames of mind. This has been three years in making mostly because I don't want a point and shoot robot trial dog. I didn't know how specific a dog could be until I really nuckled down and started to look at Khaldi. She can be trained to do something on a spot on the field and won't have it anywhere else unless you have put it there. There are some dogs that interpret any obedience as don't mentally engage/work the stock and they go where you tell them to go. Meanwhile, they really aren't working the stock. Khaldi once I got the obedience had fallen into that. Sooooooo, back to the drawing board to get her to do both simultaneously. 


Too many people don't look at the WHY of what's going on with the dog. Ultimately a lot of it turns on the dog's overall confidence with the stock and they aren't addressing it in training. Second, dogs do protest due to frustration. I used to gauge my sessions with Rory regarding how many times he barked at me. It took a while for me to see that I was asking him to do sooooo many things that were stock WRONG and he knew it---hence the barking. Handlers like "heavy" sheep. The dog's interpretation is that the sheep aren't moving off their pressure. It makes the dog ante up the force. This is why I like honest, non panic stricken sheep. I don't want them to panic and run but I do want them to honor the dogs pressure.

Terrasita


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Annika,
> 
> I'm kinda like Tony in that the trialing is sort of a game especially depending on which system you are trialing in and the variance in facility sheep. Joby, for sure the sensitive soft dog is what AKC produces because of panic/run sheep that you see at most trials. There's so much emphasis on stopping the dog and not engaging in an arena that isn't big enough for the dog to control them naturally, it isn't a game for a really keen drivey dog until they are really mature in their work. Most people don't want to wait for that. They want the titles and will do just about anything to get them and they want them NOW. I tell them that I don't trial the dog until he's three and don't expect him really up to the advanced work until he' s about five and they look at me like I've grown two heads. In herding more often than not, the hard drivey dog is frowned upon. The sacred cow is the dog that readily moves off pressure and in huge increments. I had a clinician recently tell me that he pretty much plans on having the dog's herding championship with two years of work. Now granted, the dog lives with him and he works it every day and has all the different types of stock to progress it through. Later that same champion level dog gets run off the field by a duck. More questioning and you find out that yes he's worked different breeds of dogs but they were all of the sof mushy type, not the true breed representative.
> Terrasita


My young BC is an example of a hard drivey dog and at 15 months old I have no plans to start trialing him until he is about 3 I would think. It will be interesting to see what type of trial dog he makes but he is making a great farm dog. Yesterday I had to move my new and rather wild ewe and ram flock to another paddock about a mile across a big open wheat paddock bordered by thick unfenced scrub. 

I decided to use this young dog. He was great ,got the mob through the gate and picked up anyone that made a bolt for the bush. Got challenged numerous times by the ram at the back where he was but held his nerve and kept them moving toward me. He found the pressure point each time and kept them coming. I noticed he worked out exactly how to keep the pressure on the ram and keep him moving. There were a number of bolts for the bush but he was fast and responded instantly. By the time we got to the other paddock everyone was behaving and he was very much in control and I had hardly uttered a word. 

Those paddocks walks have been the making of this dog - not me. I am better off keeping my mouth shout LOL. But he did respond instantly to me sending him out on the one occassion when he missed a breakway pair of ewes that made it into the bush.

I did think he was going to be way to full on but the walking is giving him a matuirty that amazes me.

I aim eventually to trial in the working sheepdog association trials- Putting 3 sheep around an obstacle course, yarding and utility. I am quite sure at this point it would be a total circus! not that he would care! He has a lot of maturing to do for sure. 

Someone commented to me the other day that they didnt like his mother when she competed in trials because she was way to drivey. But at home on 3000 sheep she is a tireless and competent worker. 

My young kelpie is a much easier dog to handle, but I dont trust her ability to keep her cool and the pressure on when it is needed - I can see her also being run off by a duck LOL!

Time will tell and for this novice dog and somewhat novice handler! But I always want my dog to be working stock and not a point and shoot dog!

Terrasita, your post are very informative.


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## Annika Friberg (Mar 27, 2009)

> I know what you mean about outruns, my youngsters natural tendency is to run straight toward them and then kick really wide before he gets to them. He seems to know the point at which he will spook them and breaks out wide at that point. Mind you I havent really done much work yet in that department.


We only just started a month or two ago. Ulfie comes in too tight in outruns, splits them and ends up losing them all - he does much better however if there are some visual markers (cones or standing pens) to move around. But he also tends to understand the whole exercise as circling them, getting them all bolting towards me and then disconnecting and waiting well outside of the flight zone - he doesn't lift them and hold them towards me because they've got it figured out and run to me when he comes around (unless he comes in too tight). Perhaps this would also improve by working on balance, rating and flanking.

I don't have access to any other than these quite heavy sheep that we're working but I'm thinking that if we move around in the open, I can change directions when he starts turning off because he figures they'll follow me anyway.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Sara Waters said:


> My young BC is an example of a hard drivey dog and at 15 months old I have no plans to start trialing him until he is about 3 I would think. It will be interesting to see what type of trial dog he makes but he is making a great farm dog. Yesterday I had to move my new and rather wild ewe and ram flock to another paddock about a mile across a big open wheat paddock bordered by thick unfenced scrub.
> 
> I decided to use this young dog. He was great ,got the mob through the gate and picked up anyone that made a bolt for the bush. Got challenged numerous times by the ram at the back where he was but held his nerve and kept them moving toward me. He found the pressure point each time and kept them coming. I noticed he worked out exactly how to keep the pressure on the ram and keep him moving. There were a number of bolts for the bush but he was fast and responded instantly. By the time we got to the other paddock everyone was behaving and he was very much in control and I had hardly uttered a word.
> 
> ...


Sara,

Your 15 month old sounds like mine at that age. I love what I read about the yard trials. AHBA ranch is similar to that which is why its my favorite. I've had a couple of hard drivey dogs that taught me the ropes and saved my butt. These days if I hit a wall its because I'm rushing things and forgetting those lessons. Your dog's mother is also ideal to me and its as you said, the more we select for trials that don't mimic real working tasks/conditions, the less we will have in the dogs. On the one hand from a trialing perspective I think my walkabout builds obsessive like cover in my dogs so when the light fright sheep are running the right way on the AKC course, my dog still knows they are out of control and wants cover and control and fights me saying let them go. It took me a long time to realize for the first couple of years of their working lives I put that default there. Yet, I'll probably start my next dog the same way because I can't stand for a dog to lose livestock and I'm not going to steer a fetch line, etc. And nooooo, I'd be the first to tell you that obedience isn't the number 1 priority when I'm working a dog. As for the trials, it can be a good 2-30 minutes and we are in the ribbons or it can be a bad 2-4 minutes and I call my run. You have to keep it in perspective. 

Like your dog, mine were fabulous at the farm---clean precise and always watching out for me. They hated the point and shoot venue. My last dog I pulled only needing one more leg for her HX. I decided it was just plain unfair to her. I never worked her like that. She loved the AHBA ranch and arena work--it made sense to her and was just like the stuff we did at the farm. 

I think your pasture work and jobs are the way to go with your youngster. I haven't figured out a short cut to this with that type of dog and with maturity they come into their partnership with the handler and ability to control their reactivity. I don't believe in correction and lying them down. I'd rather give them the work. There's an Australian--Greg Prince. Look at the 10 things he likes to build in a dog and you'll find outun like #8 or 9. 


T


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Annika Friberg said:


> We only just started a month or two ago. Ulfie comes in too tight in outruns, splits them and ends up losing them all - he does much better however if there are some visual markers (cones or standing pens) to move around. But he also tends to understand the whole exercise as circling them, getting them all bolting towards me and then disconnecting and waiting well outside of the flight zone - he doesn't lift them and hold them towards me because they've got it figured out and run to me when he comes around (unless he comes in too tight). Perhaps this would also improve by working on balance, rating and flanking.
> 
> I don't have access to any other than these quite heavy sheep that we're working but I'm thinking that if we move around in the open, I can change directions when he starts turning off because he figures they'll follow me anyway.


 
Annika,

Where are the sheep. Where are you standing. Where does Ulfie start from and what's the distance between the dog and the sheep? My guess is the reason he doesn't lift them and hold them towards you is that he was corrected and stopped behind them??? Have you started on a walk up/drive?

I don't think he's turning off because the sheep are committed to you. He doesn't know how to speed change and work at the same time. 

T


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Sara,
> 
> I think your pasture work and jobs are the way to go with your youngster. I haven't figured out a short cut to this with that type of dog and with maturity they come into their partnership with the handler and ability to control their reactivity. I don't believe in correction and lying them down. I'd rather give them the work. There's an Australian--Greg Prince. Look at the 10 things he likes to build in a dog and you'll find outun like #8 or 9.
> 
> T


Yes Geg Prince and his dog Princess Di were on the Australian team in the 2010 Austrlian supreme against New Zealand. The 2011 test is being held in my state so am really looking forward to watching these gurus. I know Stefan Cross also on the team is passionate about maintaining trialing dogs that produce a good farm working dogs.

I also dont lie my BC down, decided wrongly or rightly it wasnt the right way to go for my BC. He does better on his feet and working out his speed and where he needs to be for the moment. I dont think there is a shortcut - not for me at least.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Sara,

I don't know if I've mentioned or not but if you can get a hold of a good set of training ducks that fetch, drive, flock, they are worth their weight in gold for teaching rate and calmly holding pressure. The ducks have meant alot for my training and the dogs transfer the duck work to sheep and cattle.

You'll have to let me know what you think of the trials and different dog/handler teams.

T


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Annika Friberg said:


> We only just started a month or two ago. Ulfie comes in too tight in outruns, splits them and ends up losing them all - he does much better however if there are some visual markers (cones or standing pens) to move around. But he also tends to understand the whole exercise as circling them, getting them all bolting towards me and then disconnecting and waiting well outside of the flight zone - he doesn't lift them and hold them towards me because they've got it figured out and run to me when he comes around (unless he comes in too tight). Perhaps this would also improve by working on balance, rating and flanking.
> 
> I don't have access to any other than these quite heavy sheep that we're working but I'm thinking that if we move around in the open, I can change directions when he starts turning off because he figures they'll follow me anyway.


I have a similar problem with my young kelpie. Too tight and splits losing them!. She is very different to my BC and has a lie down which I didnt actually teach her but if I say wait she drops instantly. I use this to teach her a big square out run. If she was coming in too tight I would lie her down/stop her at that point and flick her out wider each time. It didnt take long before she realised what I wanted and now does a nice wide outrun. Dont know if it is the way to go but it worked for her.

The only concerns I have is that she never kicked out naturally like my BC, I have had to train it, so if I dont give her the commands I know she will come in tight at this point in her training, wheras I know my BC will widen naturally in response to his instincts without me saying anything.

My dog broke sheep do the same and run to me fast. But again the walking has helped a lot. I must say I have been enjoying using un dog broke sheep on my BC but I dont think my kelpie is ready yet.

I wonder if putting some feed or something down might hold your sheep longer from running to you. I have done that occassionally with mine.

My BC is learning to control his speed by the walking exercises. He still can be a bit naughty if the sheep are running towards me but it is improving so much.


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Sara,
> 
> I don't know if I've mentioned or not but if you can get a hold of a good set of training ducks that fetch, drive, flock, they are worth their weight in gold for teaching rate and calmly holding pressure. The ducks have meant alot for my training and the dogs transfer the duck work to sheep and cattle.
> 
> ...


Hadnt thought of Ducks or even where to get them, will have to ask around. I can see how they could be very useful!

The Australian Supreme is in September at one of our big Agricultural shows at Dowerin. It should be fantastic watching these handlers!

Just saw in my latest sheepdog newsletter that they are preparing a DVD of the Australian SupremeTrans Tasman test and all the interstate challenges and finals. Might see if I can order a copy.


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## Annika Friberg (Mar 27, 2009)

> Where are the sheep. Where are you standing. Where does Ulfie start from and what's the distance between the dog and the sheep? My guess is the reason he doesn't lift them and hold them towards you is that he was corrected and stopped behind them??? Have you started on a walk up/drive?
> 
> I don't think he's turning off because the sheep are committed to you. He doesn't know how to speed change and work at the same time.


You could well be right - about correcting and stopping. The outrun was taught with a stop at 12 o'clock from me, with the stock in a small standing pen. He did NOT like the idea of walking up to the standing pen.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Annika Friberg said:


> You could well be right - about correcting and stopping. The outrun was taught with a stop at 12 o'clock from me, with the stock in a small standing pen. He did NOT like the idea of walking up to the standing pen.


 
Its because the drop pen with sheep in it is a death trap. Watch his HT video. He uses a bark to make the stock move away from him to relieve the pressure they put on him. No way to do that with that drop pen. He is not comfortable with the idea of calm lift which is why its falling apart. Also, you have to keep developing the distance of the outrun, generally. The stop on the top side can create a lot of conflict. I know its classic training but some dogs don't understand it--they just think it means don't work/engage.

T


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## Annika Friberg (Mar 27, 2009)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Its because the drop pen with sheep in it is a death trap. Watch his HT video. He uses a bark to make the stock move away from him to relieve the pressure they put on him. No way to do that with that drop pen. He is not comfortable with the idea of calm lift which is why its falling apart. Also, you have to keep developing the distance of the outrun, generally. The stop on the top side can create a lot of conflict. I know its classic training but some dogs don't understand it--they just think it means don't work/engage.
> 
> T


So if I put some cones out and had him come around them for the outrun (for distance), then never put a stop on him but encouraged him to walk up as soon as he had reached the 11 or 12 o'clock, would that make it easier for him to comprehend?

The situation where he is going to get them is similar to the HT in that they're over almost in a corner, by the draw so I suspect that that makes him feel the pressure of the two fences more as well.

I probably also need to not panic in that situation because when he comes around and sets five sheep stampeding towards me, more often than not, I'll yell out for him to stop and then he will obviously go elsewhere since that seems to be what I want.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Annika Friberg said:


> So if I put some cones out and had him come around them for the outrun (for distance), then never put a stop on him but encouraged him to walk up as soon as he had reached the 11 or 12 o'clock, would that make it easier for him to comprehend?
> 
> The situation where he is going to get them is similar to the HT in that they're over almost in a corner, by the draw so I suspect that that makes him feel the pressure of the two fences more as well.
> 
> I probably also need to not panic in that situation because when he comes around and sets five sheep stampeding towards me, more often than not, I'll yell out for him to stop and then he will obviously go elsewhere since that seems to be what I want.


The little ones are prone to interpreting handler interference as don't work at all. Outrun, lift, fetch--3 elements taught separately. To train an outrun, you wouldn't send him into fence pressure and stock pressure. He can't get outside the pressure on the side or deep for a lift. Corner and fence work is something separate altogether. Your panic causes stress and conflict. You need to learn how to just move out the way of sheep coming towards you. As I've said, this is why more and more I like doing the foundation work with ducks--no getting run over and usually no defense avoidance with the dog unless the handler forces them into it. This is where I'm headed next with my cardigan Ferris. We did alot of pasture walkabouts with ducks w/ Bob's dog Thunder--no fences. I already know Ferris is comfy in the pocket and with fence & corner pressure so I can now move forward with some of the HS trial elements. If he wasn't I'd work on his confidence with contact with the sheep before trying to do anything. Its the foundation for all the other work.


Terrasita


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Annika Friberg said:


> So if I put some cones out and had him come around them for the outrun (for distance), then never put a stop on him but encouraged him to walk up as soon as he had reached the 11 or 12 o'clock, would that make it easier for him to comprehend?
> 
> The situation where he is going to get them is similar to the HT in that they're over almost in a corner, by the draw so I suspect that that makes him feel the pressure of the two fences more as well.
> 
> I probably also need to not panic in that situation because when he comes around and sets five sheep stampeding towards me, more often than not, I'll yell out for him to stop and then he will obviously go elsewhere since that seems to be what I want.


 
Annika,

Before moving to setting up outruns, I'd like to see him control and balance first--i.e. the walkabout with you saying and doing nothing. Until I see that the dog has that, I don't move on to trial elements. Also, as I asked are you trying to send hiim from your side initially and from what distance? As he is committed to going around, you should be moving backwards not standing still waiting to pick at the dog. If you move, you will draw the sheep and take both your handler pressure and the sheep pressure off the dog. He needs pressure relief. He can only take pressure in small doses initially. Your frontal pressure on him and need to command is constant pressure. From a handler standpoint, you have to learn, pressure on and pressure off. Too much pressure and you shut him down into avoidance.


Terrasita


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

As T said, the ducks for a walkabout were huge for me. It's much easier to see the whole picture in front of you. Also Thunder puts pressure on stock just walking in a pen and with his strong, natural desire to keep the stock on me I've taken some beatings with sheep. In the beginning I figured I could just toss their fuzzy butts aside if they came at me hard. WRONG! :lol: 
The ducks are slow enough that Thunder had to slow down in order to work them. Not so with sheep. Initially he would run them right past.....or through me then would break fast in order to keep them to me when they passed me up.
The ducks helped slow him down considerably to where he had to think a bit more. 
As I said they made it much easier for me to see the whole picture and have time to react. 
Can't beat the walkabout for settling a dog.


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

With teaching the outrun to my kelpie, I did a version of what Aled Owen suggested in his DVD. I started out at a shortish distance from my sheep with my backs to them facing my kelpie who was on a stay. 

I would move slightly to the opposite side of the one I was sending her out on. I would start to send her and where she started to come in, I would stop her and cast her out again from that position, moving my body to put some pressure on her and flicking her out with the piece of poly pipe I use. I didnt stop her at the top as by the time she got there I had recast her a couple of times and she came in well onto the sheep. I was pretty calm with her, really showing her what I wanted. She caught on pretty quickly and does a very nice cast, with good positioning.

I was able to increase her distance form the sheep rapidly, but I always cast her facing her with my back to the sheep untill she really got the right shape happening and then I started casting her facing the sheep.

The walkabout has been very benficial to my BC who was a terror for coming in at the head like a speeding bullet with my sheep running towards me like speeding bullets. He really started to get it, aided by a very truculant ram who would stand his ground and challenge. That slowed my BC right down and made him think twice about racing in as it wasnt working. That really taught him to position himself well and apply the right pressure to the ram, who will comply if worked correctly. Normally I doubt one would use a truclent ram but he was just what my hothead BC needed! It made him experiment with the pressure points without any help from me. It was very interesting to watch. He went from a head to head butting confrontation with the ram to actually figuring out how best to move him.

I was thinking about the ducks - do they need water to swim in? It is as dry as a desert where I live, we had just 4 inches of rain this year, everything is parched and dry and there are no ponds or waterholes.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Sara,

Your outrun training is classic. I stand as close to the sheep as possible to make sure doggie can't run straight. The from the side position comes much later. Bruce Fogt has great diagrams in his book and likes to get the top correct before moving to the side position. Makes a lotta sense with establishing get to the proper lift point first. That triangle formation worked really well for Bob's dog Thunder. Also, movement toward the sheep not the dog is what gets them wider. 

My ducks have a pool I run water in during the summer and now I carry out a bucket a day.

T


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

How many ducks do you recommend?


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Sara,

Just to train with, 3-5. You want drakes--no females. Don't get Runners. My breeds of choice are Khaki Campbells [nice egg layers if you wanna keep a couple of the girls] and Call Ducks.

Terrasita


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