# Breeds no longer entering International Trials



## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

It is not all that long ago that in Swiss National Trials, I encountered Airedales, Rottweilers, Great Danes, Giant Schnauzers, Briards (Berger de Brie) Beaucerons (less) Boxers besides German Shepherds and Malinois.

A number of the breed Clubs here in Switzerland are against protection sports.

Internationally, I see Malinois and German Shepherds.

At one time we could assume that dogs that were being bred for sports had healthy limbs. 

Here in Switzerland, they have the 5R Trials, i.e. Rottweilers, Airedales, Boxers, Giant Schnauzers and - blow me - I've forgotten the 5th.

Their idea seems to be not to face the great competition. This will be the downfall of these breeds eventually. With less competition there is less need to breed dogs that will have the physical and mental stamina to succeed.

How is this in other countries?

Even buyers of these breeds may be faced with a physically less able breed???


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

look at all the breeds that are suffering due to the fact that there is no longer practical "work" for them. Therefore no reason to breed by selection for working traits.... but instead by "confirmation" or some other idiot means of grading one dog against another. Whenever a practical application is lost to time the breed that provided that service is soon to go downhill. 

I was recently looking for a heeler for a friend. He wanted a working example to help around his place. I was really surprised at how much trouble I had finding a nice working example. At one time I could find one in a couple calls. When the farming and ranching decreased so did the working examples and with it the reason to breed by selection.


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

"A number of the breed Clubs here in Switzerland are against protection sports."

when I read stuff like this I cringe. It demonstrates how backwards and bizarre humans can be.


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Gillian an interesting point to ponder. If the Swiss gov. decided that all bite sports were banned. How long would it take before a true hard core working dog could not be found? Its a topic near and dear to my heart and I have examined it for years. Its almost like evolution moving at breakneck speed.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Gillian Schuler said:


> It is not all that long ago that in Swiss National Trials, I encountered Airedales, Rottweilers, Great Danes, Giant Schnauzers, Briards (Berger de Brie) Beaucerons (less) Boxers besides German Shepherds and Malinois.
> 
> A number of the breed Clubs here in Switzerland are against protection sports.
> 
> ...


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

The 5th is the Dobermann


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Brian Anderson said:


> Gillian an interesting point to ponder. If the Swiss gov. decided that all bite sports were banned. How long would it take before a true hard core working dog could not be found? Its a topic near and dear to my heart and I have examined it for years. Its almost like evolution moving at breakneck speed.


 It's near and dear to my heart too. I would actually maybe like to change breeds. I have had Landseer, Briard, Fila Brasileiro and GSDs.

The Airedales in Germany are far further than those in Switzerland. The same goes for the Boxers. I bought both GSDs from Germany but there are one or two good breeders in Switzerland.

If I never wanted to enter trial sports again, I would still wish to have a healthy specimen!


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Gillian Schuler said:


> It's near and dear to my heart too. I would actually maybe like to change breeds. I have had Landseer, Briard, Fila Brasileiro and GSDs.
> 
> The Airedales in Germany are far further than those in Switzerland. The same goes for the Boxers. I bought both GSDs from Germany but there are one or two good breeders in Switzerland.
> 
> If I never wanted to enter trial sports again, I would still wish to have a healthy specimen!


I have also been watching the sporting dogs as (here in the US) hunting with dogs is becoming less and less attractive to certain groups and actually being outlawed in areas ( a topic I could really rant on but another day). I will be curious to see if after some time of no actual hunting using labs etc will it be before its near impossible to find a good working dog in that area.


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## Jay Quinn (Apr 1, 2012)

Brian Anderson said:


> "A number of the breed Clubs here in Switzerland are against protection sports."
> 
> when I read stuff like this I cringe. It demonstrates how backwards and bizarre humans can be.


just about everywhere is against protection sports here... we have a few SchH clubs and even they are on the outer and against anything that's not SchH... i tried to join one and was kicked out when they found out i worked a street dog (NOT the dog i wanted to train with the club)... 

you get denied entry or kicked out of just about everywhere when people find out your dog has done any kind of bitework... hell in one state even playing tug with your dog is actually illegal... you're not allowed to teach your dog to "bite or grip any object being held or worn by a human" or words to that effect >_<

but that's completely OT... i do agree that it is very sad that the working functions of many breeds no longer exist and as such finding a working example is no longer possible  people suck...


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Jay Quinn said:


> just about everywhere is against protection sports here... we have a few SchH clubs and even they are on the outer and against anything that's not SchH... i tried to join one and was kicked out when they found out i worked a street dog (NOT the dog i wanted to train with the club)...
> 
> you get denied entry or kicked out of just about everywhere when people find out your dog has done any kind of bitework... hell in one state even playing tug with your dog is actually illegal... you're not allowed to teach your dog to "bite or grip any object being held or worn by a human" or words to that effect >_<
> 
> but that's completely OT... i do agree that it is very sad that the working functions of many breeds no longer exist and as such finding a working example is no longer possible  people suck...


Jay thats messed up on so many levels where do we start? Where are you located?


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## Jay Quinn (Apr 1, 2012)

Australia : (


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## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

If protection sports were made illegal in the states it would go underground. Consider that no where is it legal to fight dogs, and will bring hefty fines and jail time if discovered (as it should), yet those folks maintain their own prized bloodlines. If anything the internet has greatly assisted them


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

"dog fights" are legal in Japan 

...but it's not the type of dog fighting you are probably imagining 

haven't ever seen a vid on youtube but google Tosas and you can find refs to it


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## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

rick smith said:


> "dog fights" are legal in Japan
> 
> ...but it's not the type of dog fighting you are probably imagining
> 
> haven't ever seen a vid on youtube but google Tosas and you can find refs to it


I meant in the US. Felony everywhere here but dog fighting kennels still operate in great numbers


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## kerry engels (Nov 7, 2010)

Jay Quinn said:


> Australia : (


 
It seems that once you start giving up your Freedoms it becomes a slippery slope and more freedoms are lost.


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## Edward Weiss (Sep 19, 2011)

In Germany the KFT ( Club for Terriers) supports and maintains both local iPO trials as well as annual National Championship.
http://www.airedale-kft.de/Hundesport_News/Hundesport_News.html
Strong individual dogs enter the Mal/GSD dominated events and do well.
Eyk v Erikson placed 7 in FCI world championship about 5 years back,in a field of 100 entries.
Vast majority of these dogs are pretty tightly bred with working titles on both sides of pedigree going to the 60's and earlier.


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Hunter Allred said:


> If protection sports were made illegal in the states it would go underground. Consider that no where is it legal to fight dogs, and will bring hefty fines and jail time if discovered (as it should), yet those folks maintain their own prized bloodlines. If anything the internet has greatly assisted them


there is $$$ involved in fighting dogs. I havent seen them awarding checks at sporting trials ,,, just sayin. Over time of no real life testing... the line will become weak and eventually be just like all other back yard bred fighting dogs.


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## Gus Pineda (Jul 2, 2013)

Does Germany require IPO1 for dobermans, rottweilers, boxers, schnauzers, etc? Here in Mexico you do see some Dobermans and Rottweilers participating every now and then. In the local protection sport, you see mostly mals, but many GSD, Dutchies, pitbulls, and sometimes "rare" breeds like Australian Cattle dogs, Akita's, etc.


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

kerry engels said:


> It seems that once you start giving up your Freedoms it becomes a slippery slope and more freedoms are lost.


that slope seems to have gotten a lot slipperier ..


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## Kirsten Fitzgerald (May 23, 2014)

Brian Anderson said:


> that slope seems to have gotten a lot slipperier ..


 
Sure does. There is a thread running on a pedigree forum here in Australia that seems to explain why thats happening. 

Sorry, too sick and fuzzy headed to give a run down now and likely couldn't anyway . Its not a short explanation, but it basicaly comes down to how the K.Cs constitution and rules were written.

Hendric Gommer, a Dutch Law proffessor came up with a theory of how human organizations mimic biological law. So applying biological law to orgaizations in writing their constitution and rules can maximise success, or ensure they fail. Seems the K.Cs did the later.

The end result will be to take dogs out of the community because its a double closed system. Dogs are bred NOT to meet our needs, but the K.Cs and their own definitions can only narrow endlessly because they have ruled against their own foundations.


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

I think there is a reason that herding breeds have dominated over the last 100 years. That's not to say there can't be the occasional off breed that kicks the whole clubs ass figuratively speaking.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Kirsten Fitzgerald said:


> Sure does. There is a thread running on a pedigree forum here in Australia that seems to explain why thats happening.
> 
> Sorry, too sick and fuzzy headed to give a run down now and likely couldn't anyway . Its not a short explanation, but it basicaly comes down to how the K.Cs constitution and rules were written.
> 
> ...


I don't understand. Does your KC breed dogs?


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## Kirsten Fitzgerald (May 23, 2014)

Christopher Smith said:


> I don't understand. Does your KC breed dogs?


 I'm talking the international K.Cs that most nations are signatory to.

You would likely have to read the whole thing to follow, but I guess in a nutshell, Where did domestic dogs come from?
How were the breeds created?

By people breeding for their own situations, their own needs and to suit their own environments /purpose.

In other words, domestic dogs and the resulting breeds were developed by "backyard breeders" The K.Cs saw a chance to improve on that with the pedigree system, And it s a good one.
But by ruling members are not permitted to cross breed, they ruled against their foundations and anything outside of the K.Cs. Which will be discouraged.

Its no longer just about improvement, it now about pedigrees


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## Kirsten Fitzgerald (May 23, 2014)

Kirsten Fitzgerald said:


> I'm talking the international K.Cs that most nations are signatory to.
> 
> You would likely have to read the whole thing to follow, but I guess in a nutshell, Where did domestic dogs come from?
> How were the breeds created?
> ...


P.C probs, wont let me edit. 

So the pedigree is the 1st thing needed to be considered improvement, but the criteria for improvement comes only from within the K.Cs, not the environment ( you and me) Requirements outside of the K.Cs are no longer considered legitimate and are discouraged.
Because you can't separate yourself from your own environment, the criteria within the K.Cs becomes ever more restrictive and narrow in whats acceptable.

Theres no free flow of information between the organization and the environment that gave rise to it. Its considered antagonistic to the the organizations goals.


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## Kirsten Fitzgerald (May 23, 2014)

Kirsten Fitzgerald said:


> P.C probs, wont let me edit.
> 
> So the pedigree is the 1st thing needed to be considered improvement, but the criteria for improvement comes only from within the K.Cs, not the environment ( you and me) Requirements outside of the K.Cs are no longer considered legitimate and are discouraged.
> Because you can't separate yourself from your own environment, the criteria within the K.Cs becomes ever more restrictive and narrow in whats acceptable.
> ...


Sorry for the multiple posts.

If you read guidlines for writing a successful constitution, its recomended you don't rule outside of your charter. The theory is based on biological laws, like in cell growth and organization. A ruling out side of your charter is considered a ruling against your environment.

Since dogs that will be inelligible for registration have nothing to do with the pedigree system, thats just what happened. A ruling against everything outside of the K.Cs charter.
They can no longer be defined solely on their charter, but must be defined AGAINST their environment 1st. What they are not. What they exclude. And as long as there is an environment to exsist in, that list can only ever narrow


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## Kirsten Fitzgerald (May 23, 2014)

Hense the split between working and show line, instead of allowing for the variety of needs in the environment. And now increasingly discouraging the working sports.


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