# Is it just me



## Jonathan Hoffnagle (Dec 31, 2009)

or are all vets total morons? Worried my dog tore his acl in his right knee so I took him to a local VCA in Southwick MA. He has had Lyme/Anaplasma in the past so we put him on Doxy and Rimadyl for a few days to see if that would help clear him up but generally leaning in the direction that it was a torn acl. Well he is doing slightly better, not toeing, but still very light on the foot and that could just be from the meds. So the plan was for me to call on Monday with an update and to discuss a plan of action and schedule a time to get Xrays. Well I called Monday, 3 times, and no call back, screw you. My dog is in pain and you can't make a one minute phone call, please, you shouldn't be considered a doctor. Left that Vet and rescheduled for this morning at another local vet to get digital XRays. I got there and everyone was very helpful and the doctor extremely knowledgeable, much more so then the other. We decided to put him on an oral med(cant remember the name and it's upstairs) and keep an eye on him. The Doc and I are both on vacation next week and I could tell he was steering me away from getting an xray so I came out and said well shouldnt we get an xray so we know what the issue is and don't have to play a guessing game? Then the real story came out... "There is canine influenza in the building and I don't want to take your dog back there." Awesome. You mean back there, the place you just had me walk with my dog so you could watch. I called him out. Then they try selling me a flu shot, total BS. How about you tell me this before I make an appointment/ walk anywhere near your building. Totally unacceptable in my book. 

Let's hear your vet stories. 

Thanks for listening to the rant.


----------



## Ingrid Rosenquist (Mar 27, 2006)

No not all vets are total morons. There are bad and good just as in every profession. I have had only one crappy vet experience in my dog ownership years. More times than not my vet has gone over and beyond the call of duty. 

I think that corporate type clinics like VCA and Banfield do not always carry the quality of vets that individuals who demand more than the average pet owner want. It seems to be more of an "assemble line" type vet clinic with the focus on shots, spaying/neutering, etc.

With that said, a good friend of mine who went to an ivy league vet school and is a sharp vet recently moved to another state and is currently working for one of these corporate vet type clinics until she can get organized and buy her own clinic.

Sorry for your bad experience - it sucks when it happens. In my experience the vet literally had to seperate me from the vet tech I was so livid over the treatment of my dog at the clinic. I wrote a letter to the state licensing board to complain about the experience. I am sure it did nothing but at least it made me feel good venting ;-)


----------



## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jonathan Hoffnagle said:


> Let's hear your vet stories.


No, of course not all vets are morons. 

You're relatively new here and probably have not seen the zillion-page rants (with a core posting and reposting) about disappointment with vet service or cost. 

So I'll start this with my own vet story.

My vet is a huge plus in my life. I consider my vet to be in partnership with me to keep my dogs healthy and out of the vet's office. 

I also hope and expect the vet to make a decent income -- not just because of the huge educational cost, but because I want their office to have at least some of the latest-and-greatest diagnostic tools right there.

My vet respects my choices about minimal vaccination and raw feeding.

And my vet will always review with me any recommended diagnostic or treatment procedures with an eye to determining how best to get the results we want for what I can afford to spend.


But yes, as with the bad apples in any profession, it really sucks when it happens, especially since bad stuff is already happening and you have a sick/injured dog you're worrying about.


----------



## Jonathan Hoffnagle (Dec 31, 2009)

Yes of course not all vets are morons, just the ones I choose. Not as new as I seem, on here everyday many times, I just usually observe and keep my mouth shut.


----------



## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jonathan Hoffnagle said:


> Yes of course not all vets are morons, just the ones I choose.


One thing I've done when my old vet retired was to interview replacement vets. That is, I actually made appointments and showed up with my list of important-to-me topics.

Not sure it would have uncovered the screwups you ran into ( :-o ), but it can help a lot in choosing the vet you can work best with.


----------



## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Yes Jonathan, not all vets are morons. But, the fact is that 98% 0f them make the rest look bad. Most people, Connie not included, think their vet is doing a great job simply because they don't know what he is doing anyway. Not a clue. He could tell them the sky is falling and they would think he was right. When it comes to health these days, whether it is personal or for their dogs, people are led around like lambs going to slaughter. I got lots of stories but we have been there, done that.


----------



## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

_"When it comes to health these days, whether it is personal or for their dogs, [some] people are led around like lambs going to slaughter."_

I couldn't agree more. I think some folks are more comfortable in the role of order-follower, placing themselves (and dogs) completely and blindly in the hands of the medical professional. 

That doesn't work for me. So the partnership aspect is one of the factors the "interview" touches on. :lol:


----------



## Gina Pasieka (Apr 25, 2010)

The vet bashing bulls**t really gets old. There are crappy people in every profession. You can't just look in the phone book and expect that the closest and cheapest vet is going to be good. I travel further for good sushi, why not do the same for my dog? Most of us have devoted our lives to this profession...this is not a job...but just like dog sport...a life style choice. If you suspect your dog has an orthopedic issue, why not request a referral to a surgeon? Get the best information straight from the horses mouth. Partial tears are difficult to diagnose and radiographs will show arthritic changes or fluid within the joint, but you can not see the ligament...so an orthopedic surgeon, especially in an athlete, is the best course of action. Hopefully this will be nothing that some cage rest and NSAIDs can't fix [-o<


----------



## Jonathan Hoffnagle (Dec 31, 2009)

They were surgeons.. I don't know not telling patients there is influenza all over the building is absolutlely absurd. Close the thread I was just heated earlier.


----------



## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

*I am sorry but I just couldnt resist....at least I thought it was funny...oh the irony*



*Are e-mail and on-line activities subject to laws relating to defamation?
*Yes, laws relating to *defamation* are applicable to e-mail and other online activities. For example, if a person commits libel against you through e-mail or other on-line activities, the publisher, and any re-publisher, of the offensive statement can be held accountable for damages. This is why it is wise to be careful about anything you write in an e-mail message or online chat room. If the victim is harmed by your action, you can be held liable for his or her losses.
If you think you've been defamed by false information passed on by a computer channel, or worry about whether you can make an aggressive advertising claim, it might be worth talking to a qualified lawyer.

http://www.lawinfo.com/fuseaction/Cl...ategoryid/1162


----------



## Jonathan Hoffnagle (Dec 31, 2009)

Never said a name my friend


----------



## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Gina Pasieka said:


> *The vet bashing bulls**t really gets old. *



I'll say.


----------



## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

VCA is a large company....I think its called trade libel...but I am far from a lawyer....I am sorry but I just found it funny


----------



## Melissa Thom (Jun 21, 2011)

Connie Sutherland said:


> I'll say.



It is but it also is a common frustration. I think the profession suffers from lack of customer feedback and reliable followup from both sides. A vet needs to know when they screwed up because a learning experience will save other animals. Taking the dog home and having it die because of a bad diagnosis without telling anyone does no one any good, just like having a vet with a reckless and unnecessary policy does nothing if you don't inform them that it's a bad policy and as a result you won't be giving them any of your money. Depending on the office you will see different kinds of feedback to owner resistance. The ones that will hear out your complaint or concern are usually the ones worth your time.


----------



## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

I'm with you that I think it's crucial to inform the vet and staff (and any other professional who you are withdrawing your business from) as to the reason(s), calmly and in detail.


----------



## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Melissa Thom said:


> It is but it also is a common frustration. I think the profession suffers from lack of customer feedback and reliable followup from both sides. A vet needs to know when they screwed up because a learning experience will save other animals.


I don't know about this. I don't know a single human physician who calls their patients back personally to discuss lab test results that come back or checks in after a surgery or emergency goes home. Maybe those physicians are out there, but almost every vet I know will do important call backs themselves. I'm setting up my own practice. What would be your suggestions for how to facilitate this?



> Taking the dog home and having it die because of a bad diagnosis without telling anyone does no one any good, just like having a vet with a reckless and unnecessary policy does nothing if you don't inform them that it's a bad policy and as a result you won't be giving them any of your money. Depending on the office you will see different kinds of feedback to owner resistance. The ones that will hear out your complaint or concern are usually the ones worth your time.


So what kind of reckless and unnecessary policy do you mean? I don't know any vets who don't want to learn from their mistakes. 

In general though, working dog people don't always understand that the vast, vast majority of pet people don't know really basic stuff and they honestly don't even care they don't know. The important thing for working dog folks to remember is don't go in with a chip on your shoulder. Your vet probably doesn't share your enthusiasm for your sport or understand all the particulars of working and performance dogs and their needs, but that's purely a numbers thing. There are many equine vets out there who only do sport and performance horses. There are very few canine vets who do the same. Just keep an open mind, don't get defensive, and treat vets that you can work with well. And spread the word. We appreciate good word of mouth. 8) :mrgreen:


----------



## Melissa Thom (Jun 21, 2011)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> I don't know about this. I don't know a single human physician who calls their patients back personally to discuss lab test results that come back or checks in after a surgery or emergency goes home. Maybe those physicians are out there, but almost every vet I know will do important call backs themselves. I'm setting up my own practice. What would be your suggestions for how to facilitate this?


Maybe it's a regional thing, most of my doctors do call me in a couple weeks when I get new meds or at least have their PA or nurse call me if it's anything beyond routine physical or blood draws. Even my dentists call me after fillings and extractions to make sure I'm alright. I have never had a vet callback. Ever, about anything besides coming back in to pick up a dog, this including test results. I usually have to call them for the results of things like brucellosis testing or bloodwork. I usually have to pry when I ask how soon will I know if this is working or not, with the exception of my current vet. I'm not asking for them to be my best friend but I do want to be able to ask the simple question like "is this much pain normal?" 



Maren Bell Jones said:


> So what kind of reckless and unnecessary policy do you mean? I don't know any vets who don't want to learn from their mistakes.


Among the things I fired my last vet for I dropped in to get a quote for having a neuter done on a 7lb normal, perfectly healthy 18 month old dog who they had seen before. I was quoted $230+ (I admit I gagged.) I asked what would be included for that price tag. Overnight stay without anyone on staff, rabies vaccine, kennel cough vaccine, and the neuter. I stated I had got him a rabies vaccine at a clinic 2 months prior. She told me their office would not accept rabies shots done out of office and it would need to be redone. I asked what exactly about taking off his testicles would require a kennel cough shot? She told me it was their policy for all surgical patients but they would be happy to give him these shots the day of the surgery. He would need to stay overnight again, by their policy. I informed her exactly what I thought of these policies and I described it as dangerous, stupid, and certainly not about patient welfare. 

A couple weeks ago I had a breeder acquaintance of mine post on facebook that a very young dog of hers (10 months old) had been feeling under the weather, she took it to the vet for what she thought was a bunch of routine tests, and while in vet's office the dog suddenly shrieked, went grey, and died in the vet tech's hands. While the vet tech and vet on duty did everything they could do to bring her back it was to no avail, the dog was dead. There was a brief talk about finding answers via necropsy but the vet who was there simply told her that she thought it was either an aneurism or a cardiac event and odds are they would find no cause. So she took her little dog's body home to bury it. That night after posting that story a friend of hers who was a vet in a neighboring town called her, asked her to bring the dog to her for a necropsy so she perhaps would find answers. Turned out according to the vet from her point of view most likely when they urine tapped this poor dog they overshot and tore her aorta. Essentially the poor dog bled to death internally as a result. With these findings she called to the first vet to inform them of what most likely killed her dog. This news did not go over well, was not received well, no apology, just denial that they could possibly do such a thing, and anger that she would have the necropsy done without informing them before hand. According to her version of things she wasn't angry, she didn't ask for anything, she was just giving back information. 

I hope that most vets would want answers even if those answers might be inconvenient and maybe a little embarassing. 



Maren Bell Jones said:


> In general though, working dog people don't always understand that the vast, vast majority of pet people don't know really basic stuff and they  honestly don't even care they don't know. The important thing for working dog folks to remember is don't go in with a chip on your shoulder. Your vet probably doesn't share your enthusiasm for your sport or understand all the particulars of working and performance dogs and their needs, but that's purely a numbers thing. There are many equine vets out there who only do sport and performance horses. There are very few canine vets who do the same. Just keep an open mind, don't get defensive, and treat vets that you can work with well. And spread the word. We appreciate good word of mouth.


Oh I realize and I do endeavor to be a good client to the vets I do use because to me they are worth their weight in gold. I do expect a level of competence on their part and also to speak with me like I am a human being who is coming to them either for a service, like surgery or to answer questions. Like when I asked the question of couple years ago of why is my dog's poop grey like concrete and goopy first thing in the morning? It took two vets to get the answer but an answer was found after process of elimination with keeping me informed of why we were taking the diagnostic path we were. I have been to some vets who would probably tell me well the dog doesn't look distressed, come back when he is, or simply handed me a bottle of antibiotics and a suggested a bag of Rx diet and sent me on my way. Happily I had the vet I did who was comfortable after eliminating the most common things to suggest going to a specialist to have further diagnostics done. Worth every penny I spent on them both.


----------



## Ingrid Rosenquist (Mar 27, 2006)

Melissa Thom said:


> Maybe it's a regional thing, most of my doctors do call me in a couple weeks when I get new meds or at least have their PA or nurse call me if it's anything beyond routine physical or blood draws. Even my dentists call me after fillings and extractions to make sure I'm alright. I have never had a vet callback. Ever, about anything besides coming back in to pick up a dog, this including test results. I usually have to call them for the results of things like brucellosis testing or bloodwork. I usually have to pry when I ask how soon will I know if this is working or not, with the exception of my current vet. I'm not asking for them to be my best friend but I do want to be able to ask the simple question like "is this much pain normal?"


Maybe it is a regional thing with vets as well. My vet not only calls me with results but regularly calls to see how any of my dogs are doing a few weeks after they have been in for treatment of issues. He also has come in on vacation time to personally treat one of my dogs instead of leaving it to one of the other 5 vets in the practice. These are just a couple of examples of the services my vet gives me. 

Aside from my one bad experience at a clinic in which I had to bring my dog to due to an emergency, I have never had an issue with my regular vets but I also interview all of the vets I have had before utilizing their services and having previously worked in the vet field (albeit not as a vet) I am an educated client. I expect a certain level of service and competency and have never had an issue getting awesome vets that pass my "screening" process.


----------



## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I left my vet after a number of years. The clinic grew too large, each time we went, we saw another vet.

I must say in their defence that the operation of the Briard for torsion was fantastic. Even if the "old man" didn't want to believe what it was, his son performed a magnificent surgery. We only had to wait 20 minutes until they were set to operate and the dog recovered completely.

However, I tested a vet that I had read about in the local newspaper as being the best with regard to performance/price ratio.

I knew the vet personally (his wife came to our schutzhund club) and I tested him by taking the dogs for their 2-yearly injections necessary for crossing the borders. I told him the dog had been diagnosed by a University Clinic for HD, although HD free at 2 years, and he said, that's not only HD, that's his spine that's causing problems. He showed me how when he placed the dog's leg backward so that the paw was inverted, the dog had trouble in releasing it.

This vet diagnosed many a problem before he x-rayed. He can sniff out a kidney deficiency, detected an abscess on one of our dog's nails which apparently is extremely painful and would not always be detected as such. 

In short, even if he makes a mistake one day and I suffer the consequences, I will stick with him.


----------



## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Melissa Thom said:


> Maybe it's a regional thing, most of my doctors do call me in a couple weeks when I get new meds or at least have their PA or nurse call me if it's anything beyond routine physical or blood draws. Even my dentists call me after fillings and extractions to make sure I'm alright. I have never had a vet callback. Ever, about anything besides coming back in to pick up a dog, this including test results. I usually have to call them for the results of things like brucellosis testing or bloodwork. I usually have to pry when I ask how soon will I know if this is working or not, with the exception of my current vet. I'm not asking for them to be my best friend but I do want to be able to ask the simple question like "is this much pain normal?"


I guess it must be a difference in practice philosophy and communication, which is too bad. I'd go elsewhere to be honest. 

In vet school, our clinicians would actually grade us on how well we communicated with clients, including checking the medical record logs to make sure we called clients back and followed up several days to weeks down the road (often after we had rotated off that service). For hospitalized animals (surgery, in the ICU, etc), we were required to call them at least once if not twice a day for updates as students and the doctors themselves would also often call them personally as well. I'm fortunate to have been pretty healthy except for a bad back, but never had an MD do a call back on any test results, radiology, etc. Was always the PA or nurse. Which is fine I guess, but clients really do appreciate call backs by their own vets. Just about everywhere I've been, the vet does it themselves unless it is a pretty minor thing (heartworm test was negative, feeling okay after vaccines, etc). 




> Among the things I fired my last vet for I dropped in to get a quote for having a neuter done on a 7lb normal, perfectly healthy 18 month old dog who they had seen before. I was quoted $230+ (I admit I gagged.) I asked what would be included for that price tag. Overnight stay without anyone on staff, rabies vaccine, kennel cough vaccine, and the neuter. I stated I had got him a rabies vaccine at a clinic 2 months prior. She told me their office would not accept rabies shots done out of office and it would need to be redone. I asked what exactly about taking off his testicles would require a kennel cough shot? She told me it was their policy for all surgical patients but they would be happy to give him these shots the day of the surgery. He would need to stay overnight again, by their policy. I informed her exactly what I thought of these policies and I described it as dangerous, stupid, and certainly not about patient welfare.
> 
> A couple weeks ago I had a breeder acquaintance of mine post on facebook that a very young dog of hers (10 months old) had been feeling under the weather, she took it to the vet for what she thought was a bunch of routine tests, and while in vet's office the dog suddenly shrieked, went grey, and died in the vet tech's hands. While the vet tech and vet on duty did everything they could do to bring her back it was to no avail, the dog was dead. There was a brief talk about finding answers via necropsy but the vet who was there simply told her that she thought it was either an aneurism or a cardiac event and odds are they would find no cause. So she took her little dog's body home to bury it. That night after posting that story a friend of hers who was a vet in a neighboring town called her, asked her to bring the dog to her for a necropsy so she perhaps would find answers. Turned out according to the vet from her point of view most likely when they urine tapped this poor dog they overshot and tore her aorta. Essentially the poor dog bled to death internally as a result. With these findings she called to the first vet to inform them of what most likely killed her dog. This news did not go over well, was not received well, no apology, just denial that they could possibly do such a thing, and anger that she would have the necropsy done without informing them before hand. According to her version of things she wasn't angry, she didn't ask for anything, she was just giving back information.
> 
> I hope that most vets would want answers even if those answers might be inconvenient and maybe a little embarassing.


Is this the same vet that you use? Again, I'd go elsewhere. Most studies have found that when things go south on accident, clients are often simply looking for a simple apology. Most clients are reasonable enough to realize that vets are human and make mistakes or that accidents happen. But it doesn't help if we can't learn about them. As far as the neutering/vaccinating thing, some clinics do indeed have policies that not everyone agrees with. If you have them explain the policy and it doesn't sound reasonable, by all means, go elsewhere. On prices, it's a more difficult thing. Prices on surgery can varying tremendously by region and by demand. Some vets don't want to surgeries much, so price themselves up. Others have special training and high quality monitoring, IV fluids, anesthesia, etc, so price themselves up. Others are the only show in town, so they price themselves up.



> Oh I realize and I do endeavor to be a good client to the vets I do use because to me they are worth their weight in gold. I do expect a level of competence on their part and also to speak with me like I am a human being who is coming to them either for a service, like surgery or to answer questions. Like when I asked the question of couple years ago of why is my dog's poop grey like concrete and goopy first thing in the morning? It took two vets to get the answer but an answer was found after process of elimination with keeping me informed of why we were taking the diagnostic path we were. I have been to some vets who would probably tell me well the dog doesn't look distressed, come back when he is, or simply handed me a bottle of antibiotics and a suggested a bag of Rx diet and sent me on my way. Happily I had the vet I did who was comfortable after eliminating the most common things to suggest going to a specialist to have further diagnostics done. Worth every penny I spent on them both.


Good deal.  Thanks for sharing, it helps me. Doing a house call practice is pretty client focused, so I like to hear this stuff.


----------



## Melissa Thom (Jun 21, 2011)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Is this the same vet that you use? Again, I'd go elsewhere. Most studies have found that when things go south on accident, clients are often simply looking for a simple apology. Most clients are reasonable enough to realize that vets are human and make mistakes or that accidents happen. But it doesn't help if we can't learn about them. As far as the neutering/vaccinating thing, some clinics do indeed have policies that not everyone agrees with. If you have them explain the policy and it doesn't sound reasonable, by all means, go elsewhere. On prices, it's a more difficult thing. Prices on surgery can varying tremendously by region and by demand. Some vets don't want to surgeries much, so price themselves up. Others have special training and high quality monitoring, IV fluids, anesthesia, etc, so price themselves up. Others are the only show in town, so they price themselves up.


Nope, Not my vet- thank goodness. Honestly my vet is a big dork in a scientist kind of way. I can't imagine a dog dying on him and *not* looking if he could to see what caused it. The intellectual curiosity is part of the reason I like him. 

I agree on the surgical price thing. If we had been talking laser surgery, full blood panel, and some new fangled whatever. I might have gone with it if it weren't for the vaccine policy of requiring a second rabies shot within two months of getting one which makes not a lick of sense.


----------



## Gina Pasieka (Apr 25, 2010)

The "we require vaccines to be in the hospital" thing is such nonsense since they give the vaccines on the same day. That vaccine is not active while the dog is in the hospital, so it is not doing anything to protect the dog nor the other patients in the hospital. I would explain that to the person on the phone. They should then require you to come in 2 weeks prior for the vaccine. I can't imagine that they would require that they gave another vaccine if you had proof of current vaccination. That is inexcusable and I would run...not walk..out of that office.


----------



## Kelly Godwin (Jul 25, 2011)

Jonathan Hoffnagle said:


> or are all vets total morons? Worried my dog tore his acl in his right knee so I took him to a local VCA in Southwick MA. He has had Lyme/Anaplasma in the past so we put him on Doxy and Rimadyl for a few days to see if that would help clear him up but generally leaning in the direction that it was a torn acl. Well he is doing slightly better, not toeing, but still very light on the foot and that could just be from the meds. So the plan was for me to call on Monday with an update and to discuss a plan of action and schedule a time to get Xrays. Well I called Monday, 3 times, and no call back, screw you. My dog is in pain and you can't make a one minute phone call, please, you shouldn't be considered a doctor. Left that Vet and rescheduled for this morning at another local vet to get digital XRays. I got there and everyone was very helpful and the doctor extremely knowledgeable, much more so then the other. We decided to put him on an oral med(cant remember the name and it's upstairs) and keep an eye on him. The Doc and I are both on vacation next week and I could tell he was steering me away from getting an xray so I came out and said well shouldnt we get an xray so we know what the issue is and don't have to play a guessing game? Then the real story came out... "There is canine influenza in the building and I don't want to take your dog back there." Awesome. You mean back there, the place you just had me walk with my dog so you could watch. I called him out. Then they try selling me a flu shot, total BS. How about you tell me this before I make an appointment/ walk anywhere near your building. Totally unacceptable in my book.
> 
> Let's hear your vet stories.
> 
> Thanks for listening to the rant.


Is it just you? Yes.

Of course you are going to run into moron vets just as you will run into morons in any profession. That does not mean you paint the whole profession with a broad brush of negativity.


----------



## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Gina Pasieka said:


> The "we require vaccines to be in the hospital" thing is such nonsense since they give the vaccines on the same day. That vaccine is not active while the dog is in the hospital, so it is not doing anything to protect the dog nor the other patients in the hospital. I would explain that to the person on the phone. They should then require you to come in 2 weeks prior for the vaccine. I can't imagine that they would require that they gave another vaccine if you had proof of current vaccination. That is inexcusable and I would run...not walk..out of that office.



And the giving of a second rabies vaccine several weeks or months afterwards is not the normal protocol. Seems rather strange to me...I also am not fond of doing surgery and giving vaccinations the same day. I understand in certain circumstances, it is unavoidable (feral cats where you only get one shot to catch them), but not ideal...


----------



## Jonathan Hoffnagle (Dec 31, 2009)

double post


----------



## Jonathan Hoffnagle (Dec 31, 2009)

Kelly, keep reading--- "Yes of course not all vets are morons" and "Close the thread I was just heated earlier." Also seems to be this is a common thread theme so no, it's not just me. But how about you continue with the way the thread is currently heading, a good one, and not go back to the beginning since the "broad brush of negativity, " has clearly been covered? You People!  But welcome to WDF I look forward to post #5, lot's of knowledge on this board, I suggest you sit back, listen, and take notes as I usually do.

Glad this thread turned into something decent anyway.


----------

