# Working progeny percentages



## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

In the two top working breeds, the German shepherd and the malinois it seems that the malinois litters usually have a higher percentage of their progeny suitable for protection work or shutzhund. Is there a reason for this?


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Yes Lee, there is a reason for it. David, here is how it works. The Mal for a long long time, was worth **** all. When a dog is worth **** all, every dipshit in the world is not going to be breeding them for the money. That is the safety net that the Mal was under for a long long time.

The GSD has been worth something for quite a while, and so it is in worse condition. It also has a "show line" which really screws up the numbers, and that is more popular than the working line. The Mals numbers are more towards the work currently.


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## andreas broqvist (Jun 2, 2009)

Still the GSDs are more comon than the Mali in "real" work, Police miletary.


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## jack van strien (Apr 9, 2009)

Andreas,maybe in your part of the world,not every where.


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

*mod note*

Joel H., Jeff O.: I deleted your post. Had nothing to do with this topic and I don't want to have to close another thread 'cause it is going the wrong way. The OP is a genuine WORKING DOG question, which this board is about, and I want to let this thread continue in a normal way.


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## andreas broqvist (Jun 2, 2009)

jack.
I ment overal in the world. But the Mali is geting bigger.
I know of several cuntrys that hasent use Malis as police dogs. But I thinkting they are geting bigger every wher now.
I think its changing fast now.


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## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

andreas broqvist said:


> jack.
> *I ment overal in the world.* But the Mali is geting bigger.
> I know of several cuntrys that hasent use Malis as police dogs. But I thinkting they are geting bigger every wher now.
> I think its changing fast now.



I guess then you are talking about a long time ago ;-)


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## andreas broqvist (Jun 2, 2009)

Naaa. The police officers taht I have talkt to and train to also talks about this. I se many malis in sweden. From what I se when im traning they are more than the GSDs, But I think they still are outnumberd. Not shore thug.

But Denmark, Uk, and som others have wery litle malis. Maby Im wrong, This is not any statistics, Just word of moth and what I se. Maby you guys have numbers and im totely wrong ?


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## Gerald Guay (Jun 15, 2010)

Popularity eventually dilutes the value of all breeds. 

At one time the poodle was one hell of a great hunting dog.

The Mal's turn will come and then we will be on to another "flavour of the day".


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

I think you have to look at the total number of dogs also, when looking at how many dogs are doing X. AKC is only putting rankings on their site now, but the last time they put actual numbers there were just under 1000 Malinois pups registered in one year, and almost 50,000 GSD. Even if we doubled the Malinois number to take into account the unregistered dogs (both Malinois and Malinois mixes) that's still less then 4% of the number of GSDs produced. And that's assuming all the GSD produced are AKC registered, which they aren't, the GSD numbers are probably quite a bit higher also.

I don't know how the numbers compare in other countries, I would think in Germany there would be way more GSD produced then Malinois. Not sure about France, Belgium, or Holland??

It's also worth mentioning that a higher percent of Malinois litters are bred with working in mind then GSDs. I'd estimate 2/3 of the Malinois litters in the US are bred with work in mind, maybe more. And that less then 1/2 of the GSD litters bred are for work. A GSD person may have a more solid number, but the show focused breeders seem to outnumber the working focused ones. In the working focused litters though, I think the %'s of pups that work is probably comparable to the Malinois litters, at least the GSD litters I see in my area.


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## Joel Heffsen (Jul 19, 2010)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> *mod note*
> 
> Joel H., Jeff O.: I deleted your post. Had nothing to do with this topic and I don't want to have to close another thread 'cause it is going the wrong way. The OP is a genuine WORKING DOG question, which this board is about, and I want to let this thread continue in a normal way.


Remaining off-topic comments deleted


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

I thiunk one thing that has to be looked at is the fact that many GSD's make decent pets and are bred as such. Unless everyone is blowing smoke, DS's and Mal's are just to keyed up for the pet world.....being something of a lit fuse all the time. Even the trainers say they have to be crated when they are not supervised in the house. If this is really true and not just something someone want to believe, they are not a hobby breeders dog and may well stay in working order for some time to come.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> I thiunk one thing that has to be looked at is the fact that many GSD's make decent pets and are bred as such. Unless everyone is blowing smoke, DS's and Mal's are just to keyed up for the pet world.....being something of a lit fuse all the time. Even the trainers say they have to be crated when they are not supervised in the house. If this is really true and not just something someone want to believe, they are not a hobby breeders dog and may well stay in working order for some time to come.


Don, that is true to my knowledge. There is very few if any that are left loose 24/7 in households. You be almost crazy to leave them loose unsupervised. Majority speaking with the exception of few is the gsd is a much more laid back dog in all traits, there for much more trusted and able to be loose. That being said once you step into a race car why go back to a old rusty.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

andreas broqvist said:


> Still the GSDs are more comon than the Mali in "real" work, Police miletary.


Your a funny man. Most places that I know of or have friends at that are still using GSD is for the simple fact of lawsuit and are kinda scared of the malis. Many more police and military, other agencies have switched to malis and now DS because of the longevity of the dogs health, stamina, workability, etc....


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## Adam Rawlings (Feb 27, 2009)

Harry Keely said:


> Your a funny man. Most places that I know of or have friends at that are still using GSD is for the simple fact of lawsuit and are kinda scared of the malis. Many more police and military, other agencies have switched to malis and now DS because of the longevity of the dogs health, stamina, workability, etc....


The RCMP switched back to GSD's and it wasn't because they were to much dog.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Adam Rawlings said:


> The RCMP switched back to GSD's and it wasn't because they were to much dog.


I don't doubt that at all. Alot of departments change back to one or the other, but theres politics involved for one reason or another. Thats all I say about that to avoid the thread from being locked.:-\"


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I'm not biased. I bought my GSDs because I'd trained in the GSD camp with my Briard and got to admire these "grey" GSDs from the working lines.

I like the Malinois, it was also a choice but I didn't know so many Malinois breeders as GSDs and, through my club, and because I became a member of the Swiss GSD Club, I got to know a number of breeders. I eventually bought my GSD from Germany though.

The working GSDs are, in my mind, not the type of dog I'd let out into the garden for hours on end without surveillance!

Some say the Malinois has the overhand by the police and this is probably true but not in all areas in Switzerland and Germany.

I find the Malinois, in general, friendlier and more sociable than the working GSDs. As to their usability by the police, there are areas where the GSD dominates and areas where the Malinois dominates. I have the feeling though, unfounded, of course, that the GSD number is increasing lately.

We have both at our club, GSDs and Malinois.


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## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> I thiunk one thing that has to be looked at is the fact that many GSD's make decent pets and are bred as such. Unless everyone is blowing smoke, DS's and Mal's are just to keyed up for the pet world.....being something of a lit fuse all the time. *Even the trainers say they have to be crated when they are not supervised in the house*. If this is really true and not just something someone want to believe, they are not a hobby breeders dog and may well stay in working order for some time to come.


I really don't get it why people say this...

A lot of mals live as pets over here. No need at all to crate them.
When my dogs retire they also come and live in the house. 
A'Tim had lived in a kennel all his life and he never was the easiest one to handle. But he came to live in the house without any problem. He was very laid back and never destroyed anything.
After he passed away, it's his son Fils now that lives in the house. Also had been living in a kennel all his life and very high drive dog. Again no problem at all.


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Adam Rawlings said:


> The RCMP switched back to GSD's and it wasn't because they were to much dog.


That is not entirely true, they try to select the GSD, however will accept others, but for the most part they have moved back to the GSD, talking with a few of their trainers, it has something to do with handlers as well. 

Note: They are very selective in their GSD's, I have seen a few of them and are really really nice.


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Harry Keely said:


> Your a funny man. Most places that I know of or have friends at that are still using GSD is for the simple fact of lawsuit and are kinda scared of the malis. Many more police and military, other agencies have switched to malis and now DS because of the longevity of the dogs health, stamina, workability, etc....


 
Agencies and other services have a different requirement than most, and is not always the reasons you mentioned. They all have to have the workability, the stamina, and the health. I have seen GSD just as fast and agile as a malinois, however like everything else in this country, marketing has made the malinois (Even the stripped and black one) more marketable and able to make more profit for others, thus, the training and breeding has been angled in that direction.

I work with alot of these agencies and yes the majority are malinois, one because when purchasing from vendors, they are more in abundance and more to choose from, and second, for the most part they are a smaller, and most of the time more agile dog for the applications these dogs are going to be doing. Its not only the work of odor detection, tracking and apprehension that factors into these decisions, its also infiltration and exfiltration methods, underground/tunnel ops, waterborne operations, urban enviorments and lifting and handing the dog from team member to team member up and through windows, attics, doorways, underneath objects, vehicles, etc. The list goes on.....the malinois if generally a smaller more agile dog. 

Yes, there are a nunmber of larger malinois and smaller GSD all with great agility, I am simply stating the percentages fall in the category of the malinois with numbers.


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## Adam Rawlings (Feb 27, 2009)

Jody Butler said:


> That is not entirely true, they try to select the GSD, however will accept others, but for the most part they have moved back to the GSD, talking with a few of their trainers, it has something to do with handlers as well.
> 
> Note: They are very selective in their GSD's, I have seen a few of them and are really nice.


That's also what I've been told. I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure they strictly use GSD now and don't have any Mals working in the field.


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Adam Rawlings said:


> That's also what I've been told. I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure they strictly use GSD now and don't have any Mals working in the field.


 
Could be, either way, the ones I seen have been super, and incredible trackers!


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Martine Loots said:


> I really don't get it why people say this...
> 
> A lot of mals live as pets over here. No need at all to crate them.
> When my dogs retire they also come and live in the house.
> ...


I don't understand why itmis said either Martine. I suspect, and have suspected all along, people don't know how to train a dog to be in the house. Especially unsupervised.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Harry Keely said:


> Don, that is true to my knowledge. There is very few if any that are left loose 24/7 in households. You be almost crazy to leave them loose unsupervised.


I guess I should tell Mac to get off the bed and out into the kennel. Well, I'm assuming he's on the bed, Cali might be hogging it all to herself. Or sharing it with Nexxus, I really don't know since I'm not home


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Turnipseed 
I thiunk one thing that has to be looked at is the fact that many GSD's make decent pets and are bred as such. Unless everyone is blowing smoke, DS's and Mal's are just to keyed up for the pet world.....being something of a lit fuse all the time. Even the trainers say they have to be crated when they are not supervised in the house. If this is really true and not just something someone want to believe, they are not a hobby breeders dog and may well stay in working order for some time to come.

I really don't get it why people say this...

Many of the dogs here are very different creatures from what you see there Martine. Many Many dogs are trained here that would get thrown off the field in Belgium. We need the numbers to be able to operate as a club.

That is one of the reasons that you see them make the sports easier here. They want people to have success. People do work hard with their shitters here, and many of them are such nice people, which is why we work their shitters. LOL

I would love to send a plane load of them over for you to see what happens here, and how butt hurt they get if you point out the dog is not really all that. : )


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Oluwatobi Odunuga said:


> In the two top working breeds, the German shepherd and the malinois it seems that the malinois litters usually have a higher percentage of their progeny suitable for protection work or shutzhund. Is there a reason for this?


 Maybe there is a "size counts" clause here! Pound for pound the Malinois is faster and just as good in many areas. Fewer Mals have made the show ranks and the gene pool isn't as messed with as the GS or other breeds. Also depending upon the lines and country of purchase the Malinois seems to be better across the board!


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Jody Butler said:


> That is not entirely true, they try to select the GSD, however will accept others, but for the most part they have moved back to the GSD, talking with a few of their trainers, it has something to do with handlers as well.
> 
> Note: They are very selective in their GSD's, I have seen a few of them and are really really nice.


They also have their own breeding program to support so they will always have GSD's.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> I guess I should tell Mac to get off the bed and out into the kennel. Well, I'm assuming he's on the bed, Cali might be hogging it all to herself. Or sharing it with Nexxus, I really don't know since I'm not home


And his son Fawkes adopting a similiar pose after a swim at the lake at less than a year old.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Jody Butler said:


> Agencies and other services have a different requirement than most, and is not always the reasons you mentioned. They all have to have the workability, the stamina, and the health. I have seen GSD just as fast and agile as a malinois, however like everything else in this country, marketing has made the malinois (Even the stripped and black one) more marketable and able to make more profit for others, thus, the training and breeding has been angled in that direction.
> 
> I work with alot of these agencies and yes the majority are malinois, one because when purchasing from vendors, they are more in abundance and more to choose from, and second, for the most part they are a smaller, and most of the time more agile dog for the applications these dogs are going to be doing. Its not only the work of odor detection, tracking and apprehension that factors into these decisions, its also infiltration and exfiltration methods, underground/tunnel ops, waterborne operations, urban enviorments and lifting and handing the dog from team member to team member up and through windows, attics, doorways, underneath objects, vehicles, etc. The list goes on.....the malinois if generally a smaller more agile dog.
> 
> Yes, there are a nunmber of larger malinois and smaller GSD all with great agility, I am simply stating the percentages fall in the category of the malinois with numbers.


I agree Jody they are out there, just few and far in between compared to the Mali / DS no matter the color as long as they work.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> And his son Fawkes adopting a similiar pose after a swim at the lake at less than a year old.


I think people take shit to heart way to much in general ( No disrespect ), thats great that you can leave your malis loose all the time. Ours are loose when we are around and crated or in a kennel when we are not ( I guess its a preference thing ). Plus some can be left loose and some can't and that is fact.:grin:


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Harry Keely said:


> Don, that is true to my knowledge. *There is very few if any that are left loose 24/7 in households. You be almost crazy to leave them loose unsupervised.* Majority speaking with the exception of few is the gsd is a much more laid back dog in all traits, there for much more trusted and able to be loose. That being said once you step into a race car why go back to a old rusty.


Harry, those were the lines I was thinking of. Without getting into another long and drawn out discussion on crating working dogs, mine are usually fine out, especially if they get enough exercise. I don't keep all four dogs out at the same time together though unattended. I wouldn't risk it with the female Mal and the female Rottweiler, who are frenemies, to not get into it with each other.


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

Hi all,
Its been very interesting to hear so many opinions. I'm a real novice in this area, that's why i posted anyway. Permit me to say that i think training methods may have a part to play in this issue. The malinois comes from three countries -Belgium, france and holland. Although belgium seems to be the 'bithplace'. The thing is these countries have their own dogsports like shutzhund which are supposed to be used to select their stock. In my opinion these sports are tougher on the dog than shutzhund. Even though there are stict prey dogs in every sport i feel shutzhund is the biggest culprit. Thank God for kennels like anrebri, jinop, tiekerhook etc that still select for real working dogs as max v stephanitz wanted. Many of these kennels do civil work for their shutzhund dogs so that they are not just worked in prey. I know very few US kennels that do that. Being more of a GSD fan than malinois i prefer to see GSDs in police units, military bases ,SAR organizations etc. In my opinion i think every breeding dog-male or female should be able to pass a decent protection test and be a decent tracking dog. A female should be able to at least do PSA work. Males should be extreme dogs in my opinion. We can never ever run out of pet quality dogs so we should not be worrying about that, plus many working dog make ideal pets.
Sorry for the long post i hope i made a little sense ans somebody can correct me if i am wrong. 

Kindest regards.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Harry, those were the lines I was thinking of. Without getting into another long and drawn out discussion on crating working dogs, mine are usually fine out, especially if they get enough exercise. I don't keep all four dogs out at the same time together though unattended. I wouldn't risk it with the female Mal and the female Rottweiler, who are frenemies, to not get into it with each other.


Gotcha Maren


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