# SchH - Hombre Haterproof Von Stan



## Lacey Vessell (Nov 18, 2006)

I posted a video here of Hombre at 4 months old and then again at a year old. Hombre is now *23 months* old. He's NOT my dog - he's Chico Stanford's although I do have a female from the same litter who's a handful and no where close to this level YET.

Obedience Training http://laceync.smugmug.com/Other/Hombre-in-VA-23-months-old/17963358_jcNbBk#1375764493_7TfMWpW

SchH3 Protection Training http://laceync.smugmug.com/Other/Hombre-in-VA-23-months-old/17963358_jcNbBk#1376015708_dhZdkZM



Disclaimer: I did not pick the music for the obedience video - Chico did


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## Anna Kasho (Jan 16, 2008)

So what's Hella up to lately?

My pc sucks, all your videos freeze and stutter when I try to view them 
Really neat to see the training progression, goofy pup has grown into an impressive dog.


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## Lacey Vessell (Nov 18, 2006)

Hi Anna,

Both Hella and Zane are always up to....no good. My health has been really bad for the last few months, but I train when I can...still can't travel out of state to train at Chico's Hope your crew is doing well.


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## Erica Boling (Jun 17, 2008)

Awesome videos and GORGEOUS dog! Thanks for sharing! Good to hear from you Lacey. So sorry that you've been having to deal with health issues.  I just posted a bunch of photos of Bacci on Hyves for you and also sent you a pm here on WDF.


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## Lacey Vessell (Nov 18, 2006)

Hi Erica, thanks for comments about Hombre. Congrats to you and Bacci (LDS) for obtaining your Brevet. You two did a *great job* with a score that reflects it = 98.9.


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## Molly Graf (Jul 20, 2006)

Nice dog - very sad to see the huge amount of pressure this dog is already working under at his very young age. No joy in the work, only fear and stress - very sad, but not surprising given the handler/trainer. Makes me sick to see it. Wish I hadn't watched, now de-motivated to train today - I'll just go play with my happy dogs and give them a nice day off.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Molly Graf said:


> Makes me sick to see it. Wish I hadn't watched, now de-motivated to train today -


Care to expound some...?


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## Molly Graf (Jul 20, 2006)

don't know how I could expound some more - the nice young dog is working without joy, he's completely squashed already - training under great stress and pressure - depressing and sad to see it. Expected with this handler/trainer, so I don't know why I even looked.


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## Erica Boling (Jun 17, 2008)

Thanks, Lacey! I still like to watch the video that you made of Zane growing up. It always makes me get all teary-eyed. Love that boy!


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

what about this dog? is he squashed?
http://www.chicostanford.com/AV-video-10.htm


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## Tammy St. Louis (Feb 17, 2010)

i would say both the dogs work well , but are not super happy , you can tell there is ALOT of compulsion used in their body language, 
not what i like to see in a dog, 
I like to see a dog that LIKES what its doing, and enjoys their time working with the handler, if not... whats the point, 
But if you have dogs so that you win and that s super important , you do what you have to , 
I am all for compulsion when needed, but i am also for taking the time with the dog, and getting what you want without alot of force, 
BUT then again , I have not competed in any bite work at this point, so i am a amature, but if i have to put that much complusion on my dog so it is forced to do the work , i dont want to do it , but thats me, and I AM NOT AT THE CHAMPIONSHIP shutzhund trials...


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## Molly Graf (Jul 20, 2006)

I don't have to watch the video since I have seen this trainer/handler and his dogs in person enough to know what I will see. In training or competition - yes the dogs are squashed. They are under pressure, not happy, not enjoying the work - they are working and yes they get the points because that is what they are being "trained" to get. Points. Yes Tammy you are right IMO - what is the point? The sport is just a sport. If you don't enjoy the sport then what is the point? It's all about getting the points, that's what the point is. The dog is pressured into perfection, everything is correct and the points come. Until the squashed dog finally quits and gives up because they are under so much pressure and stress that they finally can't work anymore. Then they all of a sudden "disappear" and the handler/trainer has a new one quickly being "trained". It's very sad. Fortunately most trainers don't train this way. Most dogs are joyful in their work - they enjoy the work, they have a good relationship with their handler, and it's all fun and rewarding for both dog and handler. Not so much fun and happiness for these dogs, so I am sad for them.

molly


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## Lacey Vessell (Nov 18, 2006)

Here we go again Molly....not enough that you talk your smack all over GSD Pedigree Database Forum anytime Chico's name is mentioned and have several log in names there to assist yourself. You have no clue Molly....just a personal vendetta against Chico. I spent almost 4 years training with Chico - not seeing him and his dogs from afar and talking smack. I've spent time with him and his wife who graciously opened their home to me and *you have no clue and are completely wrong concerning the relationship he has with his dogs on or off the field.* Out of respect for the owner of the forum and the moderators here I'll try to keep things civil ...go breed some more dogs Molly.

As stated before I have a female out of the same litter as Hombre (both videos are of one dog = Hombre). She definitely keeps me on my toes. Whereas most of my dogs want to please me while enjoying the work and pleasing themselves in the process kinda like an apprentice. Hella is more about pleasing herself while enjoying the work and if she happens to please me in the process then so be it...more of a parasite type on the training field. She's a strong level-headed bitch, but if she wants to do what she wants to do...she has no problem coming up the leash and letting me know it. If she is free outside and I walk outside, much like Hombre does to Chico ....she'll try and push and engage me to work (ie., run blinds, heeling, jumps etc) instead of just wanting to play...I can assure you that these dogs like to work. Those that know Chico, knows the lines and types of dogs he likes. I've had to rethink my teaching methods (obedience without conflict) because of the type of dog that she is. 

Hombre did not recently appear or is quickly being trained, as I personally have taken videos of Hombre since he was 4 weeks old .....he is a son of Huster x Hella (both of them are doing well and have not disappeared). Hustler is a 10x SchH3 (9 of those at higher level trials)- could be 25 times if Chico was into such things and showing at club trials. Chico purposely bred them so that he could have his next competition dog.


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## Molly Graf (Jul 20, 2006)

All anyone has to do is watch those videos - it is painfully obvious to anyone who knows anything about dogs' working in drive or under pressure. Very, very obvious this poor young dog is working under great pressure and stress. And it's very disheartening to see it. Watching any videos of his older dog working and you see the same picture, only with an older dog resigned to this "training method". Chico knows how to train his dogs with pain, pressure and fear for their lives. It's just unfortunate that he doesn't seem to know how to balance that pressure with play and reward to make a balanced dog that works because they want to. Other trainers who train with pressure do know how to balance - so watching their dogs work it isn't so obvious TO ANYONE WATCHING THE VIDEO. It's also a shame that people like you can't see the forest for the trees. I hope you aren't training your puppy with Chico. Maybe you can share a video? Would love to see your puppy's training in drive with motivation, to compare littermates being trained differently.

ps I have one logon on PDB, and have always had only one. There must be others with two eyeballs who can see for themselves how Chico trains  and I have known Chico for far longer than 4 years. Every trial, he's in the bushes "warming up" his dog for his time on the field - by making his dog scream. Pitiful and sad. I'll be sure to be carrying a video camera the next time I'm at a trial where Chico is competing. The last time all I could do is stand there and make myself visible to him until he stopped hurting his dog with so many people ignoring the screams. I also made a formal complaint to the RD, but unfortunately it seems that noone really cares about dogs being abused and mistreated in this sport - it's all about the points after all, who cares about the dogs.


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## Molly Graf (Jul 20, 2006)

His dogs don't "disappear"? Then what in the world happened to all of the previous dogs he competed before Hustler? Hmmmmm? are they old dogs now, sleeping on his couch in his home, enjoying the good old dog life? Or, are they DEAD, of unknown causes - no they didn't get hit by cars, no they didn't live to old age and get put to sleep, no they didn't get sold or given away..... what happens to the dogs that finally give out and give up? Inquiring minds want to know.... where ARE the dogs that Chico competes, after he is "done with them" (or they are done with him)


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## Lacey Vessell (Nov 18, 2006)

Here's a video of my heart dog.....Zane (Like A Hurricane Chayym Chaviv) that Chico helped me train. 

http://laceync.smugmug.com/Like-A-H...ym-Chaviv/10913487_Kb7P9#834395468_N8kFs-A-LB


Please also feel free to look at the other albums (pictures/videos) on my site - might give you an insight of how I care for my dogs on and off the field. I can see the forest thru the trees - which is why I pointed out you have a personal vendetta against Chico for years now....


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## Tammy St. Louis (Feb 17, 2010)

well I dont know who Chico is at all! never heard of this person, and I dont know YOU either, but i would say as a person just watching the videos , YOU train differently that the other guy,, YOU seem to have a better relationship with YOUR dog than him , your dog Looks very happy in the work . so i can only assume , you use less compulsion than him? he can help you train your dog , but what you do on your own has this dog working for you great, you can read your dog probably very well and probably use more rewards than the other man..I think your dog looked great really,, congrats to you ,, thats the type of happy dog i like to see, the first bit of Ob it looked a little stressed but through the rest of the video , dog looked happy!


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

The couple of times I have run into Chico he has always been very helpful to me. Molly I have a lot of respect for your accomplishments. I just don't like to see anyone besmirched who isn't here to defend himself, and since Chico is not a member of this forum, it's not right and it's not fair. 

For those of you who want to judge a man by a couple of videos......seriously????

Just let this go guys, let sleeping dogs lie.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Lacey Vessell said:


> Here's a video of my heart dog.....Zane (Like A Hurricane Chayym Chaviv) that Chico helped me train.
> 
> http://laceync.smugmug.com/Like-A-H...ym-Chaviv/10913487_Kb7P9#834395468_N8kFs-A-LB
> 
> ...


 
Zane looks great!


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## Tammy St. Louis (Feb 17, 2010)

>>>For those of you who want to judge a man by a couple of videos......seriously????

i am not judging the man , like i said i dont know him from a hole in the ground, but if you put videos on here, people will judge , thats how it goes, its just a opinion,, take it or leave it


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Has Sch ever really been about the dog ??


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> Has Sch ever really been about the dog ??


Yes, and it still is for most people.


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## Molly Graf (Jul 20, 2006)

Chico has helped me out in training in the past too. I know people he has trained with and helped train. Many many years of knowing Chico - he can be very helpful indeed. And he's very knowledgeable. Just keep training and getting help from knowledgeable people, but don't give them your dog for training, and don't use any methods that you are not comfortable with - and you can do just fine. I trained with another trainer known to be " not nice" to his dogs. Lots of pressure, lots of force, lots of stress, lots of pain for the dog. These trainers simply didn't train me or my dog in that manner. I wouldn't have allowed it, but they didn't offer it and so the training was excellent and I got a lot out of it. I wouldn't want to be their own dog though, and I would never ever sell a dog to that kind of trainer, not for any amount of money.

Kudos to the dogs who come through the training and handling by these sorts of trainers and still work, still continue trying to please, still compete for years before they completely fall apart. These are very very good dogs indeed to be able to handle this amount of stress and pressure for any length of time let alone every day for years.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Tammy St. Louis said:


> >>>For those of you who want to judge a man by a couple of videos......seriously????
> 
> i am not judging the man , like i said i dont know him from a hole in the ground, but if you put videos on here, people will judge , thats how it goes, its just a opinion,, take it or leave it


Hi Tammy, I apologize. I realize you weren't judging the man per se, just what you saw on the videos. After I added that sentence I regretted it, but unfortunately it was too late to edit it out. #-o


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## Lacey Vessell (Nov 18, 2006)

Thanks Susan and Tammy for your comments about Zane. Tammy, what your looking at in reference to the beginning of the video and actually throughout the video is Zane reading me - he was not his animated happy correct self because I was not my normal self. Normally, I am nervous right before stepping onto the field...once I take that first step it's just me and my dog and I'm fine, but not this time for some reason my mind went blank, my mouth went dry and I was a nerve bag throughout - Zane read this in me. 

Sometimes I do a whole routine without any rewards....sometimes I reward everything he does correctly or every few steps. I do correct, once they learn. I don't believe that there is a cookie cutter method in training a dog....the type of training is dependent upon the type of dog (not talking breeds here). I personally have 5 working dogs - each one of them are different in the type and amount of rewarding/praises needed to perform at a certain level or just being a dog at home and each one of them are different in the amount or type of correction needed for when they do something undesirable on or off the field. The police dogs I worked throughout my military and civilian career in Law Enforcement were the same - some were what I personally call handler soft after a certain time period and others were just tolerant and biddable to a point much like Hella appears to be. 

When Zane is tracking and giving it his undivided attention....his tail is down and the tip is either to the left or slightly tucked = looks like I have no relationship with him and I used some heavy compulsion...nothing could be further from the truth. That is just the way he is when he is tracking...if his tail is up and wagging at a trial or during training- I'm in trouble because he's not tracking (concentrating). Those that trained with me everyday....knew that is just the way Zane tracks because they KNOW I've used very little corrections in teaching and training tracking with him, but those that might see a video of him might perceive that I'm using a lot of force or compulsion. It's all about perception.


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## Tammy St. Louis (Feb 17, 2010)

i agree with all you said, , i didnt see any issue in tracking with him , dogs look differnt doing differnet skills


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Lacey Vessell said:


> When Zane is tracking and giving it his undivided attention....his tail is down and the tip is either to the left or slightly tucked = looks like I have no relationship with him and I used some heavy compulsion...nothing could be further from the truth. That is just the way he is when he is tracking...if his tail is up and wagging at a trial or during training- I'm in trouble because he's not tracking (concentrating). Those that trained with me everyday....knew that is just the way Zane tracks because they KNOW I've used very little corrections in teaching and training tracking with him, but those that might see a video of him might perceive that I'm using a lot of force or compulsion. It's all about perception.


Oh I so totally get this. Mine is the same way. During OB I do use compulsion, and my dog has happy OB, tail up, ears up, very nice picture! During tracking his tail is not exactly tucked, but just as you describe, it's definitely down, and I use very little compulsion in tracking, and I know my dog likes to go tracking, I know this because he's all happy and excited when we walk to our track. I think you nailed it, it's the way they concentrate. Little bit frustrating but I figure if that's the worst of my tracking problems then I better not worry about it!


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## Laura Bollschweiler (Apr 25, 2008)

I can't watch the videos on my iPhone. But I was there at the USA nationals on Iowa to hear the obedience judge critique chico's performance. That was one of my most favorite critiques I've heard. 

I wonder how the same performance would score after the new rules go into effect. According to the message from the director of judges (hmm) the new rules place more emphasis on more of a happy, free, natural behavior. 

Laura


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## Molly Graf (Jul 20, 2006)

I would like to hear what the judge said in that obedience critique - care to share?


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## Sandra King (Mar 29, 2011)

Molly Graf said:


> Nice dog - very sad to see the huge amount of pressure this dog is already working under at his very young age. No joy in the work, only fear and stress - very sad, but not surprising given the handler/trainer. Makes me sick to see it. Wish I hadn't watched, now de-motivated to train today - I'll just go play with my happy dogs and give them a nice day off.


I thought the same thing. Especially during the retrieving part...somebody take that damn "Tacker" out of his hands! ](*,)


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## manny rose (Jun 3, 2010)

This board is full of mostly dog collectors, and whining ass people. This thread was to show the dogs training and working abilities, and then some whiny broad turns this into a i dont like the way chico trains his dogs.... People can train their dog yes dog it is not a child any responsible way they want. Some train more compulsion some more motivational and some balance the two, but as long as the dog is healthyand performs the work i think whiny little broads which could mean men also should keep personal stuff off a dog TRAINING FORUM. I dont understand why you are worried where his past dogs sleep or where they are if he has competed succesfully with his dogs amd trained many others and is probably training dogs as you whine. It is a sport and about points so that is the point do what YOU decide to do to train YOUR dog to a higher level! I dont know either of you but it would be a shame if he had a world more of accompishments than you and you sit here and down talk people who actually compete at the levels that you wamt to. This board is less about dog training and more about peoples personal problems. I dont contribute much and dontcare to. Too many people with theirnose stuck to the sky. To those who are on here that train their dogs im sorry i even posted this, its just this board has turned into the cani e lounge section not the working dog forum just look at all the recenttopics going on forever about nothing . Peace


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## manny rose (Jun 3, 2010)

One last thing, i understand jeff o now because People like molly are the reason sch is gay...its a joke idont think sch is gay just a lot of people in the sport needto tighten their belts! Peace


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## Justen Haynes (Dec 1, 2010)

Well said Manny. Those videos are actually taken of Chico at my club. I think Chico is a very fair and knowledgeable trainer. He has his methods and they work...OBVIOUSLY. Bottom line is he is competing at national and world events while you whiners are sitting around talking smack. Prove him wrong and go out there and beat him....good luck...lol.


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## Tammy St. Louis (Feb 17, 2010)

>>> Prove him wrong and go out there and beat him....good luck...lol.

I dont need to beat him , or my dogs to prove anything to anyone, I have had alot of success with my own dogs in all of the events i choose to enter them in , and we have a great relationship.. thats all I need. my dogs all excel in everything i do with them , and that is fine with me..
You can train how you want, i just said what i observed from the video , again, i have no idea who this person is, nor do i care, i like to see a happy working dog. thats all .


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Justen Haynes said:


> Prove him wrong and go out there and beat him....good luck...lol.


If who beats who is the criteria for who's right and wrong.....I think you done goofed.


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## Justen Haynes (Dec 1, 2010)

lol..wasn't saying that. His dog does not look scared of him. He has a good relationship with him and he is eager to work with him. To compete at the level that this man competes at you have to have everything perfect. All I am saying is that his goal is to compete at high levels and he is doing very well at it. Leave the man alone and go mind your own business.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Lacey Vessell said:


> Thanks Susan and Tammy for your comments about Zane. Tammy, what your looking at in reference to the beginning of the video and actually throughout the video is Zane reading me - he was not his animated happy correct self because I was not my normal self. Normally, I am nervous right before stepping onto the field...once I take that first step it's just me and my dog and I'm fine, but not this time for some reason my mind went blank, my mouth went dry and I was a nerve bag throughout - Zane read this in me.
> QUOTE]
> 
> Same here. With my old dog, when I got nervous, he sort of held me up and got us through, as if to say "no worries, I got you, take it easy", but my current dog almost steps to the side and looks at me like "don't know you, don't want to know you, be sure & let me know when Sue comes back", so we end up a disjointed mess, he with no drive, looking beat, as if he is in trouble, and me with no rhythm, an uncoordinated dufus, totally sucks. I hate when I get like that, so stupid.


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## Lacey Vessell (Nov 18, 2006)

I was asked if I was sorry I posted the videos here - the answer is  no. What you see here are two videos of training. What you don't see is the amount of time, patience, days, weeks and months of teaching and the numerous videos previously (which are on his site) starting when Hombre was 4 weeks old and the* teaching* that was started then...with clicker and food....ball rewards etc. Most here (to include myself) are just starting or are still in the teaching phase with a dog this age, most don't have the type of dog that Hombre is either. 

There are very few* if any high level trainers/handlers in any venue*, that will show you their dog from puppy to young adult etc and their methods used in teaching, training and proofing. Most either buy a young dog already trained not titled though (no one gets to see how that went), or they show you only* what they want you to believe* is the way they train their dogs for higher level competition. 

Chico does not visit forums...he does not have the time. He spends 7 days a week and most if not all day with his dogs....and no, not all of his time is spent training them either. Anyone that truly knows him...or has been around him for years.....would know that he does not put on heirs or try to hide who he is or what he is about at home or anywhere else. 

Tammy, although we may not see eye to eye in reference to the videos...I respect the fact that you have a right to your unbiased opinion....it's those that proclaim that they know the man, have known him for years = have not trained with him but have seen him only at trials and only from a distance for at least the last 10 years....that I personally have a problem with and hope to meet again...... so we can speak face to face. I found out first hand how easy it is for people to sit behind their computers and spew lies out of jealousy, vendetta, greed or because they just don't have a life....in an attempt to ruin someones name - when I rescued the current doberman I now have = Ascomannis Ingo. When I was in the presence of some of these same people at a Doberman Trial recently....not one of them had the balls to approach me in person -it's much easier to sit behind a computer and talk smack then to confront the person face to face = cowards. 

Susan....Misery loves company....I'm glad I'm not alone


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Carol Luke said:


> quote deleted


 
Did you report it or did everyone just stand around and watch?


Terrasita


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Carol Luke said:


> quote deleted


SO wait, you are saying that this guy Chico, who obviously is experienced with the sport of Sch..was at a trial, in public, out in the open, on the field, in blind #6, ......[did this] , for all to see? 

I cry major bullshyt....

who the hell are you?


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Carol Luke said:


> quote deleted


#1 Accusations like this, right or wrong, can lead to serious consequences, in particular if you didn't report or record it.

#2 This is one helluva first post.
Please go to the Member's bio forum and give us some information about yourself if you expect to continue posting on the WDF. Training experience, clubs you may belong to, area where you live, goals, etc.

Bob Scott
WDF Moderator


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

The mods want to modify the original Bio request in this instance.

Carol Luke, please PM a mod with a bio. Thank you.



WDF Mods


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## Dave Martin (Aug 11, 2010)

First of all, I would've thought anyone who has been around a significant amount of sport dogs could watch these videos and know for themselves how much compulsion has been used in the dog's training..

While I personally don't believe it's right for anyone to attack someone's training methods on a public forum that the person isn't a member of, I think some people on here need to remember this IS a public forum where people are entitled to express their views on matters like this, regardless if you may agree or disagree.

I have met this trainer on a couple occassions and he's a nice guy. I don't particularly care for the demeanor his dogs have when working, but who am I to talk sh*t if I haven't accomplished what he has? I'll be damned if they don't work and work well (when I say work, I mean perform the commands they are given with speed and precision). Say all the negative things you want about him, but IMO you only have a legitimate place in saying something if you're training YOUR dog(s) with more motivational methods and are achieving near the same, or better, results. Personally if I ever reach the point where I'm very successful training and my dogs all look happy, eager and confident in their work and it's clear we have a great relationship, I'll be the first to undermine the yank-and-crank methods when asked about them. But if I'm talking sh*t before I have reached that point, I'd certainly expect to be labeled a jackass.

Again though, public forum intended to stir up public opinion so I wouldn't have expected any less if *I *posted this..


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## Chris Jones II (Mar 20, 2011)

manny rose said:


> This board is full of mostly dog collectors, and whining ass people. This thread was to show the dogs training and working abilities, and then some whiny broad turns this into a i dont like the way chico trains his dogs.... People can train their dog yes dog it is not a child any responsible way they want. Some train more compulsion some more motivational and some balance the two, but as long as the dog is healthyand performs the work i think whiny little broads which could mean men also should keep personal stuff off a dog TRAINING FORUM. I dont understand why you are worried where his past dogs sleep or where they are if he has competed succesfully with his dogs amd trained many others and is probably training dogs as you whine. It is a sport and about points so that is the point do what YOU decide to do to train YOUR dog to a higher level! I dont know either of you but it would be a shame if he had a world more of accompishments than you and you sit here and down talk people who actually compete at the levels that you wamt to. This board is less about dog training and more about peoples personal problems. I dont contribute much and dontcare to. Too many people with theirnose stuck to the sky. To those who are on here that train their dogs im sorry i even posted this, its just this board has turned into the cani e lounge section not the working dog forum just look at all the recenttopics going on forever about nothing . Peace


Is misogyny so well entrenched on this board that calling a woman "some whiny broad" with such disdain gets no remarks? I wonder what it is about the men in dog sport and most of the women for that matter that allow this kind of behavior without even the slightest hint of criticism? I find the level of rampant misogyny and homophobia on this board to be absolutely appalling. 

Have the women on this board been instilled with so much self loathing that they can allow this kind of language and sentiment without so much as a word? All the men on here should be ashamed of themselves for the level of woman-hate that percolates in most threads. The gay haters should be ashamed of themselves for being ignorant and bigoted. 

I've never been on a forum with members that expressed so much hate for themselves or their fellow human beings. 

As people who love dogs and think about how to train them I'd think we could be better as a community than the average prejudiced, bigoted, uneducated prick.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Chris Jones II said:


> Is misogyny so well entrenched on this board that calling a woman "some whiny broad" with such disdain gets no remarks? I wonder what it is about the men in dog sport and most of the women for that matter that allow this kind of behavior without even the slightest hint of criticism? I find the level of rampant misogyny and homophobia on this board to be absolutely appalling.
> 
> Have the women on this board been instilled with so much self loathing that they can allow this kind of language and sentiment without so much as a word? All the men on here should be ashamed of themselves for the level of woman-hate that percolates in most threads. The gay haters should be ashamed of themselves for being ignorant and bigoted.
> 
> ...


Is that you David Felliciano?


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## Dave Martin (Aug 11, 2010)

Chris Jones II said:


> *All* the men on here should be ashamed of themselves for the level of woman-hate that percolates in most threads. The gay haters should be ashamed of themselves for being ignorant and bigoted.


Relax guy, and read what you're writing before you post it.. I'm sure the majority of men here have never put down women or gay people on this board.

If you have specific people you have issues with and want to send them PMs then go for it. Nonsense like that usually gets ignored because those of us that are mature and level-headed rather focus on the topic at hand then waste time and energy writing rants like yours, which undoubtedly accomplish nothing whatsoever.


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## Keith Jenkins (Jun 6, 2007)

Regardless of level the end cannot justify the means in the sport. 2012 rules changes thank God hopefully will no longer reward a dog that while correct in an exercise is diminished in attitude.


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## Chris Jones II (Mar 20, 2011)

Dave Martin said:


> Relax guy, and read what you're writing before you post it.. I'm sure the majority of men here have never put down women or gay people on this board.
> 
> If you have specific people you have issues with and want to send them PMs then go for it. Nonsense like that usually gets ignored because those of us that are mature and level-headed rather focus on the topic at hand then waste time and energy writing rants like yours, which undoubtedly accomplish nothing whatsoever.


I'm relaxed. My point is that the men on here don't say anything to stop the misogyny from those individuals. And the gay hate comes from both sides. Guilt by ambivalence. What would you think of the person who sat there and laughed, did nothing while someone else was accosted and beat up by a bunch of bored thugs? A coward? An Ahole? Maybe you'd call him smart, who knows? If people stop gay bashing and woman hating then my "ranting" has accomplished more than the sum of all your posts combined "guy".

And I'm not suggesting we all sing kumbaya and get along. I'm only asking for some mutual respect where it is due. THe most disrespectful characters seem to be dropping like flies and it is cool to see the forum cutting the extraneous bits.


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## Dave Martin (Aug 11, 2010)

Chris Jones II said:


> If people stop gay bashing and woman hating then my "ranting" has accomplished more than the sum of all your posts combined "guy".


Your heart seems to be in the right place so all I'll say is good luck with that.


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## Shade Whitesel (Aug 18, 2010)

It is a public forum so people can express their opinions about the videos of people training their dog. Whether they see compulsion, pressure, etc... and say whether they don't like it or not. This is a video of how well trained this young dog is, he's very correct and in my opinion also shows a very unhappy and pressured attitude. Whether this holds up in trial after trial, only time will tell. 
According to the last couple of National's I've seen and participated in, you can have the correctness and the happy attitude and get good scores as well. There are plenty of people at Nationals showing a different "picture" so the comment that you need this video's "picture" to compete at a National level is completely false. It's just one way to get there....


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## Molly Graf (Jul 20, 2006)

Right, Shade. All anyone has to do is look at MOST dogs - as in, all except for a very small number of obviously pressure-trained unhappy dogs - doing VERY WELL in the sport - and you will see that the comments are incorrect. You DO NOT need this amount of pressure, stress and fear installed in the dog to be correct and get the points. But don't listen to me - I've only been on one World Team, only earned the bronze, silver, gold and Master's Gold sports medal by training/titling 5 (now more) of my own-bred and trained/titled dogs. Only competed in 25 or so National-level events. Nothing like the accomplishments of Mr. Stanford, I know. But my dogs enjoy the sport as much as I do, and show their happy attitude and motivation to work in training and in trial. Points or no points, that's what I want in my dogs and my sport. I have no interest in killing my dogs' spirit (or killing my dog literally) for the sake of points. If that sort of training ever became "the only way" then bye-bye Schutzhund, for me. I'll do agility or search/rescue instead. But I think this pressure-training is soon to be going bye-bye instead. I sure hope the new rules are enforced and trainers that kill their dogs for the sake of points find another way to spend their time.
But see for yourself, just watch some videos or attend a high-level competition. Watch the winning dogs (and you won't see trainers with pressure-trained dogs standing on those podiums) - in fact, watch the top winning dogs in the WUSV or BSP and see how happy motivated dogs can in fact get the winning points.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Chris Jones II said:


> I'm relaxed. My point is that the men on here don't say anything to stop the misogyny from those individuals. And the gay hate comes from both sides. Guilt by ambivalence. What would you think of the person who sat there and laughed, did nothing while someone else was accosted and beat up by a bunch of bored thugs? A coward? An Ahole? Maybe you'd call him smart, who knows? If people stop gay bashing and woman hating then my "ranting" has accomplished more than the sum of all your posts combined "guy".
> 
> And I'm not suggesting we all sing kumbaya and get along. I'm only asking for some mutual respect where it is due. THe most disrespectful characters seem to be dropping like flies and it is cool to see the forum cutting the extraneous bits.


 
Well since he claimed it applied to men [I assumed hetero and ****], I gave it the sexist pass. Anyway, interesting to now have a debate on how the look of the dog reflects the training method utilized. I don't think you can assume one way or the other. Nor do I think the end [trial points] really justifies the means. In the name of competition, how far can it go. If you saw someone being cruel to an animal, what did you do about it. I hope more than tell anyone you come into contact with to not train with that person. Did you file a protest or complaint at the event? Any organization ought to have rules in effect which prohibit certain actions on the trial grounds during an event. Thinking of venues that specifically prohibit certain collars, a cattle prod is pretty damn creative. But the difference between a cattle prod and an e-collar is what? Once you allow compulsion/pain, how much is considered too much. You can get a thousand different responses to that question. Before you allege cruelty, that definition ought to be highly specific and not just based on the animal's look or demeanor. If you ever worked a dog that internalizes, he can "look" like you beat him senseless depending on how the handler is feeling and the handler is a cookie trainer. I don't kjnow the individual in question from Adam and tried watching the videos [kept freezing] and all I sw was a dog that might have some conflict on the retrieve, especially the presentation but that doesn't mean the handler was cruel. There's all sorts of compulsion stuff I don't like, but would I define it as cruel? There's alot of escape training out there. Cruel? Or do you define cruelty only in terms of how the animal looks while he is performing the exercise?


Terrasita


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

My only bitch is this.

They are HIS dogs. 
I think people should worry about their own dogs.

I don't see any laws that require a dog to be happy.

I have seen some pretty brutal training methods for the retrieves.

Some dogs say fukk you, some trainers do not accept that from their dogs.

No one is saying that dogs HAVE to be trained in a certain way to be successful, if some people train much differently, and their dogs are happier to do obedience, good for them..

If the rules have changed, and dogs have to be happy, trainers that do not have happy dogs will not do well, and they will change what they are doing if they want to still be successful.


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