# Separation anxiety



## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

Not something you'd expect in a good working dog, right? Not something I'd expect from a dog that's had no issues for the last ten years, either, but seems that my Malinois is showing signs for the last few weeks. Trashing and shredding things, chewing boots - four so far, I come home from work to debris every night. 

I set up a camera to watch him yesterday and captured the 40 minutes after I left for work before the battery died. Restless, barking, shredding stuff in the kitchen. He's not a happy boy and I'm at a loss for what to do about it. 

He has never been crated in the house and I've had a full time job since he was six months old, so while that would solve the destruction issues, it won't help him.

He is healthy, active, no changes to diet, exercise, or daily routine, so not sure what has triggered this now. Vet checked and vax in November. 

Anyone had issues with older dogs developing separation anxiety? Suggestions on how to deal with it?


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Not sure if it relates but I would also get a thyroid check done. Do you have any other dogs in the house of is he a home-alone?


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

One other dog in the house - six year old DS. She's parked on my bed and barely looks up when I leave.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

as you already know, this is not a common problem

you've already looked at the obvious but since there definitely has been a change in his behavior all i could suggest is to expand the observation beyond what you have looked at so far, as well as expand on possible med causes like Sarah posted
examples :
- nothing has changed in his relationships with other people or other dogs in his life ?
- same Q for you too ... ?
- look at the other dog closely too
- look at any changes you make when you get home and react to what has happened when you were gone
- you might also consider ADDING something in the lifestyle that would have a positive effect on him when you are gone or do more before you leave that might make it easier for him to settle and crash before you leave, as in get up earlier and do something VERY fun that will tire him after he is left alone

if it's medical why would the dog want to mask the symptom when he is present with you ? that part puzzles me

i would not be trying to find out why it fits the separation anxiety label and spend more time investigating. even tho i realise you already know the dog inside and out since he's lived with you so long.
- i'm still hoping it's something you've missed; similar to "can't see the forest for the trees" analogy

keep us posted.... i'm afraid all we could do is ask more questions you will get tired of answering....


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

don't know how you live with your dogs but many people give their dogs pacifiers to chew on when they are alone...

- a long time chew toy recently "retired" ?

realize i'm grasping at straws but i'm a firm believer that there is always a reason behind any radical behavior change even if we can't immediately connect the dots


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

Thanks Rick. I'm grasping at straws, too. 

I really don't know where this is coming from either, unless it's been brewing for a while, and I'm only just seeing it now because he's added shredding things, rather than just barking and stressing. Watching the video was eye-opening. The pacing and barking continued for the whole time I was able to record. 

Next step is bloodwork, I think, to make sure nothing is amiss physically, though he seems as healthy as usual. 

I take the dogs for an off leash run every morning - at least half an hour, of ball playing and free running, then breakfast. This has been our routine for years. Some days I have added fun obedience to make his brain work, but hard to say if it's helping. 

Hearing loss has also been suggested, though he seems to be able to hear just fine. 

My last thought is senior dog and cognitive changes, though not sure how you determine or deal with that. 

Silly old dog. I do love him.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

maybe exercise the problem dog alone and make it more rigorous and mentally stimulating than the current routine ?

are the teeth and gums all in good shape ?
i've seen dogs start to stress and chew to add pressure and relieve pain from a tooth going bad
- he might not want to do that in front of you, and if it was really bad he would act differently
- there are some things my dog will do in private (lick his butt) but stop if he catches me looking at him //LOL//

do you have a yard or another secure place you could leave him to see if the behavior happens the same way when left alone for awhile ??

hope you have a good vet who can think outside the box


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

I would also look back to a couple of months previous to the behaviors coming out and see if anything changed. Just throwing things from outside the box: Do you see any signs of dementia type responses? Consider taking a head/sinus xray to see if anything is amiss there. Do a general bloodwork panel for shits and grins. Get some new toys or something for the dog to play with, etc.


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

Thanks Sarah and Rick for your ideas and suggestions. 

FWIW - no problem leaving him in the van. Both dogs spent the day there yesterday because he started to melt down before I even put my shoes on to leave for work, so I took them with me. He was not happy being left for a few hours at a friend's house a few weeks ago. I can't leave him in my yard - don't trust my neighbourhood or my fencing. 

Set the camera up again this morning. I'll see what it recorded later today. It's just a cheap little video camera and it seems to run out of battery midmorning, but I'll try and upload some video if you're interested.


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

I don't need to see the vid but it sounds like his fixation on you has increased with age. By being in the van, he knows that he goes where you are going and even though left for hours will be coming back to the van. Maybe just an old age thing?


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

This is going to sound stupid but I always tell my dogs goodbye when I leave the house in the morning. Even if they are sleeping, I walk around to each one to give them a pet on the head and whisper in their ear to be a good boy. *If* I don't then I usually come home to a form of destruction involving the trashcans. So saying "goodbye" seems a simple solution. 

You might also want to give one of your worn t-shirts to the dog to *have* until you get home. Or something else that smells strong of yours? Make them up a special place and give them something to take care of or guard for you?


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

I have a good bye ritual, too, lol. Week day mornings always follow the same pattern - last chance to pee and a cookie for them, then upstairs so I can shower and dress for work, then I leave. They are both usually on my bed and before I go downstairs, I kiss their heads and tell them I love them. 

They have run of the house while I'm at work. There are chew toys accessible. 

Fosters are easy - do as much as I can in the time I have with them, and crate to minimize damage. My own weirdo dog... I suspect there is no simple solution to this.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Leslie, do you suspect this behavior was something taking place for quite some time (not the tearing up part but the other)? Do you have a kennel and if so, do you feel that he may settle if denned up?

I'd be interested in seeing the video. Not that this applies to him, but I said before that with high energy dogs I have observed with some of them too much or a certain type of stimulation can produce unwanted behaviors.

The pacing and barking would have me concerned. First for all of the obvious reasons but I think that stuff like that if allowed to persist can create a perfect storm for long term/permanent behavioral changes that may be difficult to stop.

I tend to try and approach problems in the most simple manner possible which is why I suggested seeing what he might do if crated. Might be that he settles and that's that. The medical issues I agree with and think would be my next direction to go in.

The mastiff was like the perfect house guest for years until I got the Dutch and would occasionally take off on the 4 wheeler with her and leave the mastiff behind. Then I'd return to a tipped trashcan with shredded debris. If I left the Dutch there and traveled alone, no problem. So now I relocate the trashcan if I need or choose to exercise the Dutch and leave the mastiff behind.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Try going through your 'good by routine" somewhat earlier then just leave with no big fanfare after you've spent a little time and ignoring them completely. 

If your starting to stress as you do the routine the dog could very well be feeding off that.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

I think could maybe an old dog thing.... insecure. One of the hazards living so closely with an intense dog.
Has he any old injuries or conditions that may benefit from some pain relief ? Gabapentin works a treat for taking the edge right off and settling those nerves right down.....dealing with a similar issue right now myself... and not for the first time. My guy's been on it for three months or so now he's kind of starting to wake up a bit more so I'm trying to figure that out, hopefully he's going to continue to cope...


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

Long time no hear ... nice to know you are still alive and kicking Maggie !

Gabapentin/Neurontin
I am very VERY familiar with this drug as it's used for humans but not nearly as familiar with the uses it has also started being prescribed for canines....so this thread will go WAY off topic if i said any more other than :
-----"CAUTION!"


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Thanks Rick! 

Some vets here are prescribing it for neurological type pain, apparently it works in synergy with anti inflammatories allowing a reduced dosage, in my case, metacam. I'm still kind of experimenting, a very welcome side effect of this drug has been the settling of his nerves him still being a tad hyper and prone to anxiety if left regularly. Whereas I was coming in to a stressed and agitated dog, lately I have come in to a relaxed sleepy eyed dog who I've caught on the hop. Long may it continue... )


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Hey Maggie, nice to see you! Hope all is well. It sounds like your dog might be exhibiting (or did) similar behaviors that Leslie's dog is. Interesting discussion, there's not a lot of a discussion on older dog issues and this one in particular might be beneficial to others as well.


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## Lindsay Janes (Aug 9, 2007)

I know this sounds very silly and stupid....... Maybe checking yourself out to the doctor office too. Sometimes dogs are sensitive to the changes of their owner's body chemistry or hormones. I noticed that my dogs are super sensitive to the change in my hormones. I have to be aware of how I am feeling and what energy I am transforming to the dogs. Some behaviors you don't expect to see are showing up for no reasons. 

If its pure separation anxiety, then you can always practice and reward calm behaviors. Like putting on and taking off your shoes repeatedly to desensitize her anxiety. Same method as a therapist working with patient who has a phobia of spider.


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

Lindsay Janes said:


> I know this sounds very silly and stupid....... Maybe checking yourself out to the doctor office too. Sometimes dogs are sensitive to the changes of their owner's body chemistry or hormones.


Not silly or stupid at all, quite insightful, really, and may apply here. That is something I had not considered at all.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

i was following Lindsay's thought process when i said ;
"- same Q for you too ... ?"

we always think it's the dog who is changing when it is sometimes Us who are changing
- i had a stage with my own dog when i went thru some frustrating challenges that caused him to react differently almost to the point of shutting down
...when i first started getting him less reactive to other dogs it frustrated the hell out of me and i started getting heavy handed. used to remove him from training sessions too early and "put him up". when i finally figured out is was ME who couldn't handle things, not him, we both started making progress 

typical "blame the dog first" syndrome ](*,)

no matter how quickly we say that we know "shit travels down the lead, we are all probably guilty of not following our own advice at some point in time.

i'm not sure i agree they can smell the differences in our hormone levels, but if they can actually sniff cancer cells i might have to change my opinion

i know their senses are highly developed ... too bad we just can't ask them and get a straight answer //LOL//


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

just made me think of advice i've given to many dog owners.

Laff all you want.....but if you want to learn how to read dogs and handle them better, start working with cats too. they put up up with a LOT less heavy handling and take a LOT more finesse than canines !!!


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Cheers Nicole, hope all is well with you too!

I think dogs sense all manner of different energy you give off, and trying to trick an old dog who probably has studied you inside out is a waste of time. I think it can be a useful thing in order to consider something may be going on with oneself, as a form of feedback if you like, but you stiill have the dog behaviour to address unless of course you plan on changing yourself if you can... I say check out the gabapentin if you can....

Rick you're hitting way off topic.... ))


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

That's the Maggie we all know and love! :grin: :wink:


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

Vet appointment scheduled to do blood tests and discuss medication. If it turns up anything, or not, I'll let you know. Thanks, all, for your input on this.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

if the vet leans towards meds you might also wanna research melatonin as a first step

general vets usually don't know much about it cause it's a cheap, natural supplement sold over the counter

i've used it on a few dogs, but never had a vet here in Japan (4-5) who knew about it


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

I'm leaning towards meds. I'm hoping my vet is on side with that approach, if blood work doesn't show any issues. 

I don't think this is a management issue. It's pretty clear from the videos I recorded that he's not a bored, under-exercised dog who just needs a bit more exercise and stimulation, but is a senior dog showing clear signs of stress and anxiety when I leave, despite no changes from a routine that's been working for him, and my other dog, for years. Short of quitting my job to stay home, which I would happily do if someone wants to fund that, I'm not sure there's much more I can do to "manage" him. 

I will check out melatonin. Cheap, over the counter, might be worth a try.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> That's the Maggie we all know and love! :grin: :wink:


Cheers Bob, hope you're well 

Gabapentin is very cheap too, only it requires a prescription from vet. Hope you get something sorted out soon.. 

Melatonin is sounding interesting Rick..


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

Blood tests are normal. 

Picked up a calming supplement. I don't have a lot of faith in it working, but I'm willing to give it a try. Also picked up some metacam and I will see if making him more physically comfortable helps him to be more mentally comfortable and less stressed.

Gabapentin was also suggested in addition to the NSAID as a possibility in the future. 

Melatonin was not recommended, though I will keep it in mind.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Glad to hear his blood work is fine. Keep us posted!


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

glad everything is normal. Maybe he will smooth out in a couple more weeks.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

did the vet go over the details of the bloodwork ?
what were the GLU, GLOB, CHOL levels ?
they can all be stress related ... maybe within "normal" specs but can also be early indicators of a problem

did the vet request the dog be fasted before drawing blood ?
I'm sure you know the results of laboratory tests may be influenced by a recent meal...just saying....

As you probably also know, sometimes laboratory tests need to be repeated to evaluate trends, which may provide more information than measurements of a single test. 

what other exams besides blood work ?

granted, a "calming" drug or supp 'may' give you some desired results, but i'm always a bit hesitant to start treating a symptom with drugs when the cause is still unknown.

of course i'm getting in the weeds, but if the problem was obvious you would already be dealing with it instead of just observing symptoms


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

No, I was just told the blood tests didn't indicate any problems.

I could do a lot more if I had the resources, but I am limited in just how much I can do. That visit was $400... a good chunk of my paycheque, so unless there is some pressing or obvious need, I am not going to be pursuing further tests. 

I honestly don't think I'm going to be able to pin down why now my dog is stressed and acting out when I leave for work, given there have never been issues before, and that my other dog is not similarly affected. I think like Maggie suggested, it's an old dog thing. Right now, I'm good with symptom relief.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

i can imagine how frustrating this must be

i'm no expert on the SA syndrome, but the dogs that i have worked with whose owners who were explaining the behaviors as separation anxiety were trying to find ways to escape their enclosures in addition to the barking...to the point of real destruction. they didn't just spin around and bark...they wanted OUT

also, why are you connecting the shredding as a sign of SA ?
i've seen MANY dogs who did that for a wide variety of reasons. most were under-exercised and/or under-stimulated mentally. not saying it's either; just saying it might be and it and you can't rule it out unless a MAJOR change in both occurred with no change in the behavior....obviously it would require some seriously more rigorous play/work/training or whatever....not just a few extra laps around the block ;-)

another suggestion
- have you taught the dog any new behaviors lately ?
- the extra effort it will take by both you and the dog might help
- old dogs can definitely learn new tricks

i would not give up on a med problem just yet.....i've had a few dogs who had normal "bloodwork" done who were later diagnosed with a med issue

lots of other tests can be done
-- of course they all cost money, and i realise it never grows on a tree in the backyard 

by the way...maybe i missed it .... how old is the dog ?
i've had NO experience with senior dog dementia or read about a connection with old age bringing on the symptoms you have been describing

last but not least...
if it truly IS sep anxiety, i'd like to hear specifically how others have dealt with the issue and gotten positive results

keep your head up !!


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

FOUR HUNDRED bucks for a visit for bloodwork ???
wow

Japan is not as expensive as i thought


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

Separation anxiety seems as good a description as any. 

He will be 11 in May. If you saw him in the park, you'd never guess he's a senior dog, aside from the grey face. 

I think the shredding is stress related based on what I saw on the video. When he's in the picture, his body language is all stress - tail down, mouth open and pulled back, random barking, pacing. He goes repeatedly to the back door, where I leave in the morning. He stopped to howl. I have never, ever seen him howl. These are not normal at home behaviours for him. When he grabs something to shred, it's for a short time and then he moves on. He's not settling in for a good chew. 

I am reluctant to increase his exercise - he is not 100% sound and has not been for some time. Wear and tear catches up with all of us, so I am trying to find the balance with enough exercise to keep him happy, not so much I break him down. Depending on where I go in the morning, I have started doing fun obedience to work his brain. 

Yup - $400 between the tests, call fee, meds and tax.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

i'd still try to teach him some new stuff...doesn't have to require a lot of physical exertion ... just getting him to think and work the braincells
- he's happy being with you so he should still enjoy the learning experience and trying to please you, etc
- who cares if it doesn't cure the bad stuff ... it will still give him some new challenges to conquer and nothing wrong with that imo

my dog is over ten and he just learned how to cross his paws when he was laying down....my training assistant did it as a training exercise. to practise luring skills.....took a few days to get him to nail it, and it's just a cute doggie trick but he had to think when there were other commands given in rapid succession during the proofing stages

use it or lose it might apply


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