# Ball Rewarding



## Rob Maltese (Jan 8, 2014)

This may be the wrong place to post this or not, forgive me please. 

I'm looking to see if someone can point me in the right direction, or give me some training tips on using a ball on a string as a reward. I would like to be able to use something like *this*.

Axle will retrieve the ball to me about 75% of the time, I was wondering if someone could help me get this to 100% so I could use the ball as a reward as seen by many handlers.

This is a video of the ball in use.


----------



## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

Is that you in the 2nd video?


----------



## Rob Maltese (Jan 8, 2014)

Faisal Khan said:


> Is that you in the 2nd video?


I wish! Haha

That's Forrest Micke.


----------



## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

Well then post a vid of you and dog with ball! The dogs in video have a genetic inclination towards this type of training, without seeing your dog it is impossible to let you know what to do to get to that level.


----------



## Rob Maltese (Jan 8, 2014)

Faisal Khan said:


> Well then post a vid of you and dog with ball! The dogs in video have a genetic inclination towards this type of training, without seeing your dog it is impossible to let you know what to do to get to that level.


I've never tried a ball on rope with him but he tends to not always bring the chuck it ball back when we play... I'll try to get a video but usually we're training alone - I shall do my best!


----------



## Lisa Radcliffe (Jun 9, 2011)

Rob Maltese said:


> I've never tried a ball on rope with him but he tends to not always bring the chuck it ball back when we play... I'll try to get a video but usually we're training alone - I shall do my best!


Forrest Micke is awesome! I took a seminar a few years ago but it for sure takes time to train like he does with the ball and rope. I start my young puppies out with 2 ball I use the orange chuck it ball (large) once they build trust that you are not a taker! they bring it back every time, then I start using the ball and rope and just take the other away. You can bring it back every now and then if you need it. Once you start using it, it is not to hard to train like the video of Forrest. Lots of practice! Good luck-


----------



## Lisa Radcliffe (Jun 9, 2011)

Lisa Radcliffe said:


> Forrest Micke is awesome! I took a seminar a few years ago but it for sure takes time to train like he does with the ball and rope. I start my young puppies out with 2 ball I use the orange chuck it ball (large) once they build trust that you are not a taker! they bring it back every time, then I start using the ball and rope and just take the other away. You can bring it back every now and then if you need it. Once you start using it, it is not to hard to train like the video of Forrest. Lots of practice! Good luck-


I mean to say to REWARD like Forrest!


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Rob Maltese said:


> This may be the wrong place to post this or not, forgive me please.
> 
> I'm looking to see if someone can point me in the right direction, or give me some training tips on using a ball on a string as a reward. I would like to be able to use something like *this*.
> 
> ...



If the dog isn't bringing it back there could be a lot of reasons. 
Often the reward for a dog is the ball itself. If he already has the reward Why should he bring it back?

Toss the ball only a short distance AND have the dog on a lead.
There is what I call the area of influence. That means if the toss is far enough away then the dog is out of your area of influence. That opens up chances for more distractions and more chances to ignore you.
Does the dog have access to the ball all the time? The ball should be yours and the dog is "allowed" to play with it only WITH you.
STOP before the dog gets bored and decides he doesn't have to bring it back. 
Back chain the retrieve! To many toss and hope for the best. Back chaining the retrieve keeps you in control.
Does your dog like to tug? IMHO that's can be more attractive to many dogs.
The ball on a rope can have it's own set of problems when the dog realizes that it's easier to catch or carry by the rope. 
Does the dog get reward for the return? Is that reward more important then the ball itself?


----------



## Rob Maltese (Jan 8, 2014)

No the only time the dog has access is when we give him access, other then that no. I'm working with a new local trainer I will see if he can't give me a hand as well. In the mean time I shall get a chuckit ball on a rope and try as Bob described. One thing the trainer mentioned was to buy two of the same tugs and let the dog have the tug but show him that the tug your not interacting with is dead and no fun.


----------



## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

The most important question, how old is your dog.


----------



## Rob Maltese (Jan 8, 2014)

Matt Vandart said:


> The most important question, how old is your dog.


1.5 Years of age.


----------



## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Ok need a vid then please.

What other 'toys' have you used?


----------



## Rob Maltese (Jan 8, 2014)

Matt Vandart said:


> Ok need a vid then please.
> 
> What other 'toys' have you used?


Nothing really, we're just getting into using a tug but we're still working on that however personally I feel using a ball such as shown in the video would be much more easier for me.

Although I shouldn't, sometimes I will use the ChuckIT Launcher & ball as a reward by simply giving a command, marking and tossing the ball. Ax will run and get it but doesn't always return with it. Sometimes he will just go off on his own, lay down chomp on it/mouth it - I'll walk over he will jump up and get ready for another go, on the other hand there's times he will rush and get it, bring it back and drop it at my feet. At those times I mark it, heavy praise on the retrieve and continue on. 

I think what I will try is to put him on teh 15' lead, shorten my throws and reward the retrieve and attempt to back chain it. One issue I have with marking/rewarding with food is sometimes he tries to inhale the food and chokes/coughs then obviously becomes distracted via the treat that went flying out of his mouth he wanted. Part of this has to do with where I am rewarding (high where he has to tilt his head way up) which is my fault and I am working on fixing. 

I've met with Scott Beebe (not sure if y'all know him) to help with my training, the goal is to get the obedience on point both on and off leash with heavy distractions with his help, then consider a sport.


----------



## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Listen to your trainer. Too many cooks will spoil the pot.

Ask him about using a second ball to get the dog to come to you since he mentioned a second tug.

Ask him about restrained recalls also. Recall is your problem with the ball. If you start with recalls you are really getting to your minor point of contention with the dog.


Rob Maltese said:


> Nothing really, we're just getting into using a tug but we're still working on that however personally I feel using a ball such as shown in the video would be much more easier for me.
> 
> Although I shouldn't, sometimes I will use the ChuckIT Launcher & ball as a reward by simply giving a command, marking and tossing the ball. Ax will run and get it but doesn't always return with it. Sometimes he will just go off on his own, lay down chomp on it/mouth it - I'll walk over he will jump up and get ready for another go, on the other hand there's times he will rush and get it, bring it back and drop it at my feet. At those times I mark it, heavy praise on the retrieve and continue on.
> 
> ...


----------



## Rob Maltese (Jan 8, 2014)

Dave Colborn said:


> Listen to your trainer. Too many cooks will spoil the pot.
> 
> Ask him about using a second ball to get the dog to come to you since he mentioned a second tug.


Sounds like a plan Dave, thanks. I feel bad for him sometimes, I'm all over the map with what I want. :neutral:

I think I am set in stone with what I said last post about obedience down on & off leash (eCollar), then consider a sport.


----------



## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Dave has hit the nail on the head right there, sort his recall out first. Don't worry about the chuck it, I often use one training heeling and even bite work. Highly underestimated tool IMO


----------



## Rob Maltese (Jan 8, 2014)

Matt Vandart said:


> Dave has hit the nail on the head right there, sort his recall out first. Don't worry about the chuck it, I often use one training heeling and even bite work. Highly underestimated tool IMO


Hmm... well I don't recall him after he gets it if that makes sense - maybe that's my issue? I guess I've always rewarded him when he's returned teh ball, so I just sort of expect it? Haha well that would be my issue right there...


----------



## Denise King (May 31, 2009)

The people in my club use balls on a rope from Hallmark K-9. Easier to hang onto.


----------



## Rob Maltese (Jan 8, 2014)

Denise King said:


> The people in my club use balls on a rope from Hallmark K-9. Easier to hang onto.


Thanks Denise, I think the first goal is to get the dog to understand the ball as a reward & retrieve it appropriately then I can begin determining which is best for my application/dog.


----------



## Rob Maltese (Jan 8, 2014)

Still having some struggle getting the dog to return the ball to me, I think I was using a contaminated training area. I'll have to keep trying... 

If I use two balls, he will drop the ball in his mouth and come sprinting back to get the one in my hand. Any suggestions of getting the dog to return to me, with the ball.

His training with recall is more an emergency recall, if I call him - he drops whatever he has, or he is doing and comes directly to me and sits in front of me. That's my recall... I'm okay with this.


----------



## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

I don't know how big an area you are working in but would suggest moving to a small fenced area to give you more control and less distance to work over. If you can find a long fenced run type area or even the long hallway in your home. You will have more control over the dog's movements and it becomes a throw and retrieve exercise. For me, I would be using a clicker and interspersing food reward with throwing 2nd ball as reward for his fetching the ball to me. It will be a return to basic foundation groundwork and baby steps for a while.


----------



## Rob Maltese (Jan 8, 2014)

Sarah Platts said:


> I don't know how big an area you are working in but would suggest moving to a small fenced area to give you more control and less distance to work over. If you can find a long fenced run type area or even the long hallway in your home. You will have more control over the dog's movements and it becomes a throw and retrieve exercise. For me, I would be using a clicker and interspersing food reward with throwing 2nd ball as reward for his fetching the ball to me. It will be a return to basic foundation groundwork and baby steps for a while.


I will have to try this approach, I might be over thinking this for sure... I just hope it still stays fun for him... Ya know?


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Rob it is VERY SIMPLE to shoot a video of you working with your dog, by yourself.

Set camera up on a tripod.. fencepost, chair, cooler, bucket, car hood, or whatever, make sure camera is turned on, check and adjust the field of view, making sure it is wide enough to film the area you intend to be in, then press RECORD.


----------



## Rob Maltese (Jan 8, 2014)

Joby Becker said:


> Rob it is VERY SIMPLE to shoot a video of you working with your dog, by yourself.
> 
> Set camera up on a tripod.. fencepost, chair, cooler, bucket, car hood, or whatever, make sure camera is turned on, check and adjust the field of view, making sure it is wide enough to film the area you intend to be in, then press RECORD.


And if one doesn't have a video recorded lol

I'm technologically advanced, just don't have all the equipment. I'm wishing I had someone local who's also into the similar style of training.


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Rob Maltese said:


> And if one doesn't have a video recorded lol
> 
> I'm technologically advanced, just don't have all the equipment. I'm wishing I had someone local who's also into the similar style of training.


ah, a camera IS required to do this of course... 

video is very helpful to see what you, the dog, etc are doing. and it takes relying on your perception out of the picture..

why do you feel the dog is not returning the ball to you?


----------



## Rob Maltese (Jan 8, 2014)

Joby Becker said:


> ah, a camera IS required to do this of course...
> 
> video is very helpful to see what you, the dog, etc are doing. and it takes relying on your perception out of the picture..
> 
> why do you feel the dog is not returning the ball to you?


That's a tough question to answer, his out is fantastic. I never have to ask twice unless it's on tug and he's really engaged. I think he doesn't re engage me with the ball because maybe he doesn't think he'll get it back however he always gets it back, although I require a command before I give it to him? Maybe my sessions are too long?


----------



## Rob Maltese (Jan 8, 2014)

Giving it more thought, I do think my sessions are too long and that's why he's taking it and just trying to go lay down and avoid me wanting to work him more... I am wanting to push him too much in hopes to make him tired to avoid disobedience we've had in the past due to his energy levels. 

This is nothing more besides handler error, I will change this and create more fun and enjoyable sessions. Today opened my eyes and made me re-evaluate my efforts... 

What I did today, which caused me to open my eyes. First we went for a off leash walk around the local park (very very minor distractions, did some fun recall work). We went into the ball field (controlled environment, fenced in) and did some heeling work, rewarded with the tug and began letting him "win" and using my second tug (it's destroyed, need a new one) to try to show Axle that the tug in his current possession, wasn't as fun as the one I had in my hands (suggestion from the trainer I'm working with). First two - three times I did this, Ax came running back and trying to get the tug in my hand. I showed excitement and enthusiasm as well as he did. After about 3 times, he ran away - didn't want anything to do with my tug in hand no matter which one it was.

I think if I shorten down to 2-3 returns then go into something else it will be smarter, or just stop training all together and go into a walk/hike then wait 20-30 minutes and try again?


I hope all this made sense.


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

You said "trying to get the tug in my hand".
Does the dog ever win the tug? 
If he stops at three times they let him win the tug at two times. Build off that. 
Put the tug on a flirt pole to bring up his prey to catch the tug. Of course if it isn't there then you can't bring it up beyond his capacity/genetics.


----------



## Rob Maltese (Jan 8, 2014)

Bob Scott said:


> You said "trying to get the tug in my hand".
> Does the dog ever win the tug?
> If he stops at three times they let him win the tug at two times. Build off that.
> Put the tug on a flirt pole to bring up his prey to catch the tug. Of course if it isn't there then you can't bring it up beyond his capacity/genetics.


When he wins the tug, he takes off with it - is this bad? Is this allowed? Should I have to go get it from him or be exciting and try to get him to bring it to me? 

As for the prey drive to catch the tug, I've put toys on a flirt pole before...he smartens up and tries to come up on the rope lol


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

It all still boils down to the dog not returning with the ball, tug, whatever. You need an absolute solid recall, a solid hold and a solid out before you can expect any sort of consistent return to hand.
Right now your just tossing and hoping. That has nothing to do with training.


----------

