# Next Step Antisocial Pup



## Lee H Sternberg

I didn't want to hijack Patricks Fiona thread but this kind of mirrors Patricks issues to some extent.

I have a very antisocial 9 month old female. I've spent months getting her to the point where we can go in public places without her reacting to people passing close by.

She used to bark, growl and want to bite anybody that came closer than 10 feet. That is cured. We can walk downtown where there's lots of close by pedestrian traffic with no negative events.

That is unless someone stares at her and tries to directly approach us. If that happens she is ready to fight.

This pup has had some bitework and does outstanding.

Yesterdays event in a Kmart parking lot went like this - I was walking her through the parking lot and past the entry doors. Many times I just stand next to the doors and let her observe. 

There were no issues until a man and women faced us from 10 foot away and started staring at her and admiring "the cute puppy" while trying to approach us. That was it! She didn't lunge but gave a loud warning growl. I have no doubt if they kept approaching she would have bitten them.

We've been working a lot on "watch me" but I can't have her staring at me all the time. I want to get her to the point where she can differentiate a real threat from a none threat.

Ideas?


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Get the obedience correct, and then you can correct for stupid stuff like lunging. 

I tend to skip that part and just crack them in the head and say no. For your situation, and the fact that I cannot see the dogs exact reaction, I would stick with the above formula.

I absolutely do not put up with this stuff, but that is just me. If the dog is ok environmentally, then to me it is just being an asshole, and I will not tolerate it period.


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## Michele McAtee

This is where, IMO, it gets to be a HUGE responsibility having a dog like you describe. 

Like you said, it's not real practical to have your pup staring at you constantly. However, like Jeff said, sticking with ob...if you are constantly aware of your dog/its reactions to the world, you can intervene with obedience, thus teaching the dog self control.

Breakthroughs like you describe with being able to be out in public are awesome, (been there! ). 

Are you training for PPD? I am curious to the answers you get here too, as was mentioned in Patrick's thread, it is *generally*, our responsibility to protect our dogs...(IE: if passerbys would stare at my dog and I thought I'd get a reaction from my dog, I'd put the dog in a sit, or watch me--not a PPD though) 

With a PPD, it's different ?...I'm thinking 9 months old is too soon for the dog to be able to make that decision (threat/no threat). You have to teach them to make that decision, right? I have no PPD training at all, but I'm thinking maturity plays a big role in training PPD's. 

and, in your circumstance at KMart, let's say YOU felt the people a threat....what then, let the dog off on them??? Not. Stick with ob.


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## Patrick Murray

Lee, as with Fiona, I think excellent obedience training will help with this. Obedience training is the foundation for everything else. When we teach obedience to a dog we're really teaching communication and the ability for them to understand what it is we expect from them. They're also learning to be subserviant to they're handler, their "Alpha". 

Maybe I didn't encounter this issue with my first working dog because I began obedience training pretty much from the get-go, meaning, 8 weeks of age. I didn't do that this time because the train of thought these days is to let the puppy do pretty much whatever and to hold off on formal obedience training so as not to diminish the puppy's drive and vigor. But, like everything else, there are usually "pros" and "cons" for doing or NOT doing something; in this case it might be a "con". 

There is a local playground with all sorts of things to climb, things that wobble, etc. During school hours :mrgreen: I'm going to take Fiona there and that is where I am going to teach the bulk of her basic obedience. I did that with my first dog and I think it's a great way to teach obedience because the dog is also learning agility (climb up, climb down, jump, etc.) and, most important, the dog is learning to communicate and work with you. She already has a rudimentary knowledge of "sit", "stay", "down" and "come". So now I'll take her to the park and, when she gets stressed about walking over something, I'll relieve that stress by asking her to "sit". I'll then, again, try to get her to complete the objective. If she still doesn't want to do it I'll ask her to sit again. I'll then take her off of the object and do something else. I will, of course, return to that objective later and continue trying to persuade her to complete it, but I will NOT force her to do it. When she becomes stressed I will ask her to "sit" or "down" in order to relieve the stress. Imagine when you were a little kid and you went to the diving board and you stared down at the water "far" below and then the anxiety began to build as you couldn't decide if you should jump or get the hell off that scary thing. Imagine, then, if at that moment you were asked to simply sit down and take a breather. You didn't jump but you didn't retreat. You get a chance to calm yourself. And, when you were asked to sit you weren't upset that you were asked to sit, it was a welcome relief! So that is using obedience to help relieve the stress of the situation. 

It's best if you can also find something where both your dog AND YOU climb the apparatus together. You want to have to move slowly to get through it, all the while talking to your dog. This promotes communication, trust, teamwork and bonding. Once you and your dog have really mastered these skills and have established trust and obedience, you'll be in a much stronger place in which to work on these other issues. It's tough to address issues (dog-aggression, dangerously unsocial to others) when I have not perfected with Fiona the most basic aspects of obedience and communication. 

So, we have our work to do and once we do it we can address and resolve some of these other issues. The problem isn't our dogs; it's us. We have to do our jobs and then the dogs will do theirs. Everything I just shared with you is exactly what I'm going to be doing after lunch today (I work from home) and every day, along with long walks with my son and controlled "socialization" (watching other dogs from 50 yards :mrgreen: and then, hopefully, moving in gradually over a period of time). I'll share what went right and what went wrong. Good luck Lee!


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## Lee H Sternberg

Michele McAtee said:


> This is where, IMO, it gets to be a HUGE responsibility having a dog like you describe.
> 
> Like you said, it's not real practical to have your pup staring at you constantly. However, like Jeff said, sticking with ob...if you are constantly aware of your dog/its reactions to the world, you can intervene with obedience, thus teaching the dog self control.
> 
> Breakthroughs like you describe with being able to be out in public are awesome, (been there! ).
> 
> Are you training for PPD? I am curious to the answers you get here too, as was mentioned in Patrick's thread, it is *generally*, our responsibility to protect our dogs...(IE: if passerbys would stare at my dog and I thought I'd get a reaction from my dog, I'd put the dog in a sit, or watch me--not a PPD though)
> 
> With a PPD, it's different ?...I'm thinking 9 months old is too soon for the dog to be able to make that decision (threat/no threat). You have to teach them to make that decision, right? I have no PPD training at all, but I'm thinking maturity plays a big role in training PPD's.
> 
> and, in your circumstance at KMart, let's say YOU felt the people a threat....what then, let the dog off on them??? Not. Stick with ob.



She is being trained as a PPD. Like you say that clouds the matter a bit.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

How the hell does it cloud anything???? Why is a dog making a decision????? THere is no decision by the dog, it bites when it is told to.

Please tell me who instilled this silliness into your brain pans that asshole behavior by a pup is allowable at all?????

What do you think will happen????

Punishing idiot behavior by (what could be) a nice pup thats a bit too sharp is not going to be ruined by explaining to the dog that she makes no decisions.

Walt Disney is killing me.


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## Howard Knauf

Patrick Murray said:


> Lee, as with Fiona, I think excellent obedience training will help with this. Obedience training is the foundation for everything else.



This statement is only partially true. Yes, OB is a foundation and good building block...the finishing touch is the communication and leadership between, and by the handler. If you don't know how to read the dog, or know what he is telling you then you are lost. Too many times OB is fraught with force/compulsion and that is a poor foundation that will soon crumble.

I haven't seen the dog so I can only take an educated guess in what is going on. First...PP training is fine for young dogs but it has to be based in prey in the beginning. If you are putting too much defense work in this young dog then you are the one who is creating the problem. Dogs aren't born bad, people make them so.

Jeff makes a good point. The one problem I have with his fix is cracking the dog over the head. To me it is unfair to do this when the handler is the one who created the problem in the first place. If the dog is sharp, you have to be honest with yourself and accept that is the case. Work with what you've got and move forward. 

I had an exact copy of your dog but in a different breed. Using his prey drive to get over his social aggression worked fantastic. Once he was well socialized, only then did I start the work needed to turn him into a patrol dog.

Lee, get someone who knows their stuff to evaluate your dog honestly. Only then can you accept what you have and then taylor your training to the dog itself...not to what you want. If the two coincide then its a good thing. If they don't, get another prospect. JMO

Howard


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## Lee H Sternberg

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Get the obedience correct, and then you can correct for stupid stuff like lunging.
> 
> I tend to skip that part and just crack them in the head and say no. For your situation, and the fact that I cannot see the dogs exact reaction, I would stick with the above formula.
> 
> I absolutely do not put up with this stuff, but that is just me. If the dog is ok environmentally, then to me it is just being an asshole, and I will not tolerate it period.



The pups sire is out of Dick and Selena's bloodlines so I suspect my pup is predisposed to some of this aggression.

I, like Patrick, have gone very slow and easy with this pup's obedience. I started in very early with my male but he has a different temperament.

I have corrected with the pinch collar to no avail. The next event the same thing happens. She knows who is giving the correction so I detect no confusion.

It may be time for the ecollar.

In the meantime I will work hard on obedience.


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## Erik Berg

Something I ask myself when reading patricks and this thread, why is an"antisocial" dog something to strive for, a dog that will explode just by quick glance in it´s eyes, what good is this except more extra work have to be done with the dog? Apparently some likes and breeds such dogs, and that´s OK with me, but why do this antisocial and suspicious mind becomes an asset for a workingdog? It seems a dog that is social or just neutral to people will do the job with less effort and still remain effective in it´s job.
Is a dog that needs to attack it´s sorroundings and constantly being watched, wether it´s people or other animals, really a selfassured and courageous dog?


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## Howard Knauf

Erik Berg said:


> Is a dog that needs to attack it´s sorroundings and constantly being watched, wether it´s people or other animals, really a selfassured and courageous dog?


 Not necessarily. It's either genetically weak...or the owner created the problem. Either way, there's no excuse for that behavoir. If its the owner problem then there is a chance to fix it.


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## Michele McAtee

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> How the hell does it cloud anything???? Why is a dog making a decision????? THere is no decision by the dog, it bites when it is told to.
> 
> Please tell me who instilled this silliness into your brain pans that asshole behavior by a pup is allowable at all?????
> 
> What do you think will happen????
> 
> Punishing idiot behavior by (what could be) a nice pup thats a bit too sharp is not going to be ruined by explaining to the dog that she makes no decisions.
> 
> Walt Disney is killing me.


I prefaced earlier, I don't know much about PPD's. 
I thought *eventually* they are trained to make decisions (ie: if owner is knocked out unconcious, etc...) however, 9 months, is way young for that...

I am going to simply read this thread from here on out (IE: shut up and learn something!!! ...

Did deal with a serious dog for a year though...stayed on him with, like Howard said, prey (needed no extra work in defense!!!) and motivation.


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## Selena van Leeuwen

Why the he... would you want her to do that? She feels challenged with every direct look at her, she wants to dominate. Some things you can't do with this type of dog, a lot of "normal" every day things are solved with good ob, but like I mentioned before, take everything away and you've broken the dog to an extend she just be fur and no DOG any more. If you want that... take a lab or so.

@ Erik: no suspision, just a lot of dominance.


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## Lyn Chen

Erik Berg said:


> why do this antisocial and suspicious mind becomes an asset for a workingdog?
> 
> 
> 
> Why not? Easier to mold aggression not based on fear, then to try and bring it out in a dog that may not even have it at all. As long as the control is there.
Click to expand...


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## Howard Knauf

One must confirm that the aggression is not based on fear to mould the dog correctly. Fear based aggression makes for an unstable dog. Again, have the dog evaluated to determine where the aggression stems from.


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## Erik Berg

Lyn, just because the dog doesn´t see anyone as a potential threat to it´s dominance it doesn´t mean they lack confident aggression and courage, or do you mean every strong dog should not tolerate being around people without looking for a reason to bite?

I assume most dogs that are antisocial are so becasue some form of insecurity/fear that manifest itself in aggression when this insecurity is triggered. On the other hand, there is the dogs selena talks about that are very dominant and therefore not tolerate people. But why do they feel the need to act aggresively, if they don´t feel a certain suspicion about people in it´s surrounding? Some say the most confident and dominant dogs doesn´t feel the need to act aggresively around pepople and animals, because they are so sure of themself they know they will win a fight if needed, don´t know how much truth it´s in that statement thou.

But a dog that is more or less neutral to people and accept them seems to be most desired even among PSDs, at least in my corner of the world. They don´t need to love people or tolerate being "petted" in every possible way, but they should accept a normal person doing a eartatto check or similar without going crazy.


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## Jerry Lyda

For what it's worth: I just read last night in the 2004 Schutzhund mag.( the one with Wallace Payne on the cover) that pups learn social behavior up to 12 weeks old. Now I'm thinking and I know a lot of people do this is to seperate the pups when they are six weeks old. Them being seperated they learn no social behavior. I know this is generalized but worth some thought.


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## Lyn Chen

I don't mean that at all, but the fact is if the aggression is there and controllable, why *shouldn't* people want to use it? Doesn't mean the dog that's not like that can't be strong. Some people like it that way, some don't.

There are many forms of aggression. Yes, a truly confident dog naturally shouldn't light up with little things, and a truly dominant dog generally is the one in the pack that's not trying to bully or growl at other pack members. Being anti-social in itself could be caused by a number of things, and I don't always see it as insecurity. Some dogs love the fight and will look for any reason to challenge someone. Some dogs are socially aggressive, and have no desire to be friendly to those outside their pack, a trait stemming from way back in the wild. 

Again, I see it this way, if you can control it and the dog learns to control it, then fine, if the dog is so wound up and can't get anything but the aggression in his head no matter what you do, then there's something wrong.

The suspicion, isn't that what we WANT in our working dogs? Otherwise why are we in the Personal Protection thread?


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## Lee H Sternberg

Howard Knauf said:


> One must confirm that the aggression is not based on fear to mould the dog correctly. Fear based aggression makes for an unstable dog. Again, have the dog evaluated to determine where the aggression stems from.



It's not fear based. The dog was evaluated and worked all summer by a retired well known, internationally recognized, respected PPD trainer. In fact he told me if I ever decided to sell her his check book was ready.


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## Selena van Leeuwen

[-X [-X You'll send her to me, if you want to get rid of her :mrgreen:


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## Erik Berg

A social dog that has an inborn level of aggression and defence could easily learn to be suspicious and serious when needed, it´s just a simple trainingissue. I bet most PSDs that have a few encounters on the street learn that when in duty not all people are nice to them, and therefore don´t act like a labrador when in duty.


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## Howard Knauf

Erik Berg said:


> I bet most PSDs that have a few encounters on the street learn that when in duty not all people are nice to them, and therefore don´t act like a labrador when in duty.


 True statement but, there is no reason for them to be lunging or showing all sorts of aggressive body language in a normal setting. I love a nasty dog as much as the next guy, but not only are they a pain in the ass, they are a liability as well. Control the social aggression and channel it to situations that need it.

An ideal dog to me is one that can be among the masses without fear of a bad bite, but can read a person enough to determine when to focus, and yes, aggress on them if need be.

True story.....I'm in our local airport doing bomb sweeps with people all around. While the dog is resting between searches a lady walks up and engages in conversation. My dog is quite relaxed and she comments on such. All of the sudden he alerts on one specific man amoungst about 50 people walking by. She is surprised at his actions and I see right away who the dog has targeted. The lady is clueless so I explain to her what is going on. The man my dog targeted is carrying a very heavy shoulder bag and it has changed his natural walking posture as opposed to everyone else in the area. The lady sees what I have pointed out and is extremely surprised at the dogs' discriminative nature to be suspicious of humans acting out of the ordinary. She went away impressed, and I once again continued to have confidence in my dog.

Now, given the above scenario, and the fact that the dog has had numerous real street bites...why would I want a dog to be going balistic over every human in the area? Talk about a bad impression. Criminal are much like dogs in that they exihibit specific predatorial body clues. A well balanced dog should be able to pick the fly sh## out of the pepper when doing PP work. Anything less is a lawsuit waiting to happen.

Suppose this same lady turns out to be some real hottie and I'm distracted. An antisocial and aggressive dog in public would have had me explaining to my supervisor what the hell happened when the PD is served with a lawsuit. Just sayin'

Howard


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## Lee H Sternberg

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> [-X [-X You'll send her to me, if you want to get rid of her :mrgreen:



I love this dog, Selena. She is with me to stay.:smile: It's a challenge to do right by her. She keeps me thinking what the hell do I do now.:???:


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## Michele McAtee

Howard Knauf said:


> The lady sees what I have pointed out and is extremely surprised at the dogs' discriminative nature to be suspicious of humans acting out of the ordinary. She went away impressed, and I once again continued to have confidence in my dog.



This scenario is exactly what I was driving at when I stated:



Michele McAtee said:


> With a PPD, it's different ?...I'm thinking 9 months old is too soon for the dog to be able to make that decision (threat/no threat). You have to teach them to make that decision, right? I have no PPD training at all, but I'm thinking maturity plays a big role in training PPD's.


So Howard, it seems (proper) training and maturity, combined with natural instinct is what allows for the dog to discriminate like you described?


(I know I said I was going to shut up, but there is an opportunity for some light bulb action,(even if it is a "duh", I'm jumping in! lol)


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## Howard Knauf

Michele McAtee said:


> So Howard, it seems (proper) training and maturity, combined with natural instinct is what allows for the dog to discriminate like you described?



Yep. And experience. Tough to get the experience when whilst doing so in public the dog is always looking for a fight. Maybe Jeff had it right the first time...crack the dog over the head. JK

Howard


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## Jeff Oehlsen

As with everything, corrections are an art form. There is always a reason I do what I do, and with my amazing inability to type even a bit faster than snails, I left out a lot of what else I would do with the pup.

When I say that I would crack the dog in the head, I am not kidding, but the after is most important. I am looking to get the dog to look at me. I need the dog to understand that I do not approve, but also that I am the one deciding. When the dog looks, I am going to attract the dog, and start babbling on about what a good dog for a second. I do not know how to tell what I would do exactly with your dog, but I know what to do with my dog. I am not often verbally challenged, but this one I go off of feel for what the dog is doing.

I absolutly disagree with a pinch for this kind of stuff.....big suprise, I rarely use one, but I will shake a pup till snot bubble come out if it thinks it is going to ignore me, and continue to act retarded.

A ppd is of no use if you cannot take it safely out into the world. Kind of like a dog on a chain in the backyard. I have not broken a pup of anything except asshole behavior, and I have yet to see this fail. I have had extremely civil dogs in the past, and was able to handle them in public with no problem.


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## Lee H Sternberg

Thanks Jeff I appreciate the advice. I need to figure out exactly how to handle a correction when she breaks the "watch me" command.

I will try it with out the pinch collar.

Could you be more specific in how you "shake the snot" out of the dog.:lol:


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Don't stop until bubbles show, otherwise it is as written. LOL


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## ann schnerre

all i can add if it's worth anything, is that the best dog i ever had, i busted her in the head, with my fist, when she chose to ignore me. she was an EXTREMELY hard dog--she took it and then looked at me like "OK, now what?"

i have never had another dog like her, and have never had to bust another dog in the head to get their attention. this is probably really politically incorrect to admit to in this day and age, but it worked for this particular dog; she lived with me til she died at 15 yrs old, and i could call her off anything even in the midst of a charge for a squirrel (her life-long ambition). 

pont is: sometimes they need a head-bust, sometimes the old throw-chain, sometimes they don't. you only know if you're on the ground with the dog. but OB is ALWAYS the base.


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## william mcneil

Lee,
I would continue to take the dog to strange places, but in stead of having the dog sitting watching you, do some OB, with food or toy, redirect the dogs attention to you and maybe start at a distance away from people and as the dog gets comfortable get closer. This will teach the dog to ignore people and pay attention to you.When the dog is focused on something other than strange people his confidence will grow and strange people will not be an issue. It work for me many times. Hope this helps.

Will M.


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## Gerry Grimwood

Or, you could make that Pshtttt sound and hold up one of them there Cesar Millan laser hands :razz:


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## Jeff Oehlsen

I think what has happened is that there are just more piss weak dogs out there that don't need a correction, and when someone gets a dog with a Hemi the silly shit doesn't work anymore.

Lets face it, Milans bs hand thing just tells the dog that it is going to get a punch in the head. too bad they don't show that part.


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## Gerry Grimwood

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Lets face it, Milans bs hand thing just tells the dog that it is going to get a punch in the head. too bad they don't show that part.


So that's why they lay down on their side and freeze, I always thought it was a spiritual connection and not a right hook. :wink:


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## Bob Scott

Gerry Grimwood said:


> So that's why they lay down on their side and freeze, I always thought it was a spiritual connection and not a right hook. :wink:


Note the blue tongue when said dog is laying on it's side. :grin:


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Can you imagine if he or the network had the balls to show the truth??? It would do the world a lot of good.

I have seen that type of thing be used as a cue for dogs in trials.........hmmmmmmmm maybe I should do that with shithead.:smile:


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## Bob Scott

From what I've heard he wants to show more of how he actually works. It's the producers that fear the consequences of that with the general (furbaby) public.
He has made the effort in a few shows to explain the use of both the pinch and the e-collar.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

I wanted to crack my dog in the head with both. LOL


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## Lee H Sternberg

william mcneil said:


> Lee,
> I would continue to take the dog to strange places, but in stead of having the dog sitting watching you, do some OB, with food or toy, redirect the dogs attention to you and maybe start at a distance away from people and as the dog gets comfortable get closer. This will teach the dog to ignore people and pay attention to you.When the dog is focused on something other than strange people his confidence will grow and strange people will not be an issue. It work for me many times. Hope this helps.
> 
> Will M.


Thanks, Will - I'm doing all of your suggestions on almost a daily basis. It is all helping. Some of this behavior may resolve itself with maturity.

I watch her body language closely during these events. As I indicated in my OP, she can now deal with strangers very close by. 

The issue now is more of a direct contact thing. Stares or direct approaches by strangers is when she attempts to get dominant. Even stares from farther away than 5 or 10 feet are not a issue. I can walk her past strangers 1 foot away without any problems unless the stranger starts fawning over her.

If someone invades our "space" she is ready to fight. As I indicated before it is all forward motion. The ears are up and forward, the head held high, hackles up and moving towards the directly towards the fight.


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## Lee H Sternberg

There are some gradual attitude changes taking place with this female's antisocial behavior. A couple of weeks ago she went up to a neighbor lady I was conversing with and sniffed her fingers. That was the first time she ever did anything like that.

All the neighbors know my dogs and understand both the males social and the females antisocial temperaments.

Sunday I was in the front yard with my 2 dogs off leash. A couple of neighbor men were BSing across the street. I walked over and started to speak with them like I have done many times before.

What normally take place is my male wades into the middle of the group looking for attention. My female usually stays outside the circle calmly doing her own thing ignoring every but me.

Much to everyone's surprise she followed the male right into the small group and began sniffing hands. As this was taking place I asked the neighbors not to stare or attempt to pet her. I wanted to eliminate any potential she might have regarding a challenge or need for dominant behavior.

Now that I'm doing OB with the female I just recently started allowing them both together off leash in the front yard. I consider this kind of a "monkey see, monkey do" event. She watched the male charge right in a few times and then followed him into the group. 

My next step will be to see how she acts without the male making the first move. I will leave the male in the back yard for this experiment. This is a good weekend for it because neighbors will be outside hanging Christmas lights.


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## Selena van Leeuwen

Difference is that she can-may choose now ;-) in the situations you describe, told you before that forcing social behaviour wouldn´t work. Her choosing for contact is from her initiative and is different.


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## Lee H Sternberg

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> Difference is that she can-may choose now ;-) in the situations you describe, told you before that forcing social behaviour wouldn´t work. Her choosing for contact is from her initiative and is different.


Understood!


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## Mo Earle

Hi Lee, just saw your topic and wanted to add, when Hugo,my little crazy mal, was approx. 9 or 10 months old, he was like that with strangers. I had taken him to a local dog trial, so he would get exposure to the sounds etc, during a break I had him out, you know, socialize the cute puppy-so I thought too...a very well known dog person approached us, Hugo was sitting in a heel position, seemed fine, and all of a sudden went off on this person like a crazed animal-#-o luckily this person is VERY well versed in dogs,dog training etc and did not get bit..and a few months later after a lot more obedience training etc,really watching his body language and working with that, Hugo got his Brevet in FR, we have done a lot of different venues since then, and he has been a blast-he tolerates people very well now -he will allow others to touch him, but he is not the big ham looking for affection...so don't give up, keep up your obedience work, bite training. Mo


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## Patrick Murray

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> Difference is that she can-may choose now ;-) in the situations you describe, told you before that forcing social behaviour wouldn´t work. Her choosing for contact is from her initiative and is different.


That's been EXACTLY my experience with my anti-social pup, Fiona, who will be, by the way, one year old tomorrow (11/26). When strangers approach Fiona she typically becomes defensive and often will growl. Conversely, when allowed to, Fiona will peacefully approach a neutral acting person, sniff and accept petting. Some dogs don't do well with forced socialization. In some cases it's better to let the dog initiate any socialization on their terms. At least that's been my experience with Fiona.


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## Lee H Sternberg

Mo Earle said:


> Hi Lee, just saw your topic and wanted to add, when Hugo,my little crazy mal, was approx. 9 or 10 months old, he was like that with strangers. I had taken him to a local dog trial, so he would get exposure to the sounds etc, during a break I had him out, you know, socialize the cute puppy-so I thought too...a very well known dog person approached us, Hugo was sitting in a heel position, seemed fine, and all of a sudden went off on this person like a crazed animal-#-o luckily this person is VERY well versed in dogs,dog training etc and did not get bit..and a few months later after a lot more obedience training etc,really watching his body language and working with that, Hugo got his Brevet in FR, we have done a lot of different venues since then, and he has been a blast-he tolerates people very well now -he will allow others to touch him, but he is not the big ham looking for affection...so don't give up, keep up your obedience work, bite training. Mo


Thanks Mo, I've worked with this female since she was 7 weeks old. There is no turning back now for me or her.


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## Mo Earle

I understand that, I got Hugo at 6 weeks old- and wouldn't sell him for ALL the money in the world!! 
Have a Happy Turkey day!


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## Lee H Sternberg

You too Mo and everyone else! :razz:


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Glad to see your work is paying off.


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## Lee H Sternberg

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Glad to see your work is paying off.


Thanks, it's slow but sure. Kinda hard for someone like me who looks for quick results. A little maturity is helping her too.


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## Anna Kasho

Lee H Sternberg said:


> Thanks, it's slow but sure. Kinda hard for someone like me who looks for quick results. A little maturity is helping her too.


 
Hey Lee, you are definitely not alone - my mal, Cyko, also went through a maybe-too-sharp aggressive phase starting at 4-5 months and again at around 10-12 months, which resolved with maturity. Actually he was not as extreme as your female, but I thought it was really interesting to read your description of her body language, etc. He did the same thing, hair up, tail up, full eye contact, charge forward. When I described it to diffrerent people the opinions were all over the place, from nervous fear-biter(but why charge forward at the threat at a distance) to too-dominant-aggressive (he is actually a "naturally" submissive dog in everyday life). 

He grew out of it. Or, at least, he's gotten more self-assured and learned that most everyday situations are no threat and do not require such a huge waste of energy. He is more of a social dog though.

I would be very curious to know what changes you see when your female is in heat. More aggresive, or more confident and calmer?


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## Lee H Sternberg

Hi Anna - I had all those same opinions too. In the beginning I was confused myself. I never had a dog that was so extreme. I had a lot of help and advice right from the start. The breeder, Selena and Mike Schoonbrood understand the lines. The sire is a van Leeuwen dog.

It wasn't long before I knew her temperament wasn't fear motivated. Part of my confusion was created because she is a female. 

The other issue is that she is a soft dog with me and the family. Verbal corrections is all it takes to get her to respond with any type obedience. She was doing off leash obedience much sooner than my male. She doesn't like me to even raise my voice.

It all changes with bitework or strangers. It's like working with a entirely different dog. I took her to the car wash yesterday and she wanted to kill the guy spraying off the car. My male reacts to that kind of stuff in the car too, but with her, I can feel the difference. 

I can't explain it. You have to live with a dog like this and experience it. That's where the liability lies. I take that very seriously.

It will be interesting to see what happens when she goes into heat and after that it's over. I will keep everyone posted.


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## Lee H Sternberg

I'm getting ready to work on the dog aggression this little bitch displays any time another dog gets within 20 feet of us.

I plan on standing outside our local pet stores that have lots of dog traffic on weekends.

My desire is to be able to pass close by other animals without mine lighting up like a firecracker.

I have control with "watch me" and obedience until we get within approx. 20 feet. After that all hell breaks loose.

She is a year old now so I think it's time tackle this issue.

My first inclination is to use a ecollar. I have one on her when we are in public in case she tries to get stupid with any pedestrians. She is very responsive to the ecollar pager unless it comes to another close by dog. It's the same thing with obedience exercises. I don't have issues any more instructing her to sit or down next to another person but all bets are off with another dog that invades her space.

I can't set myself up staging a planned encounter with another dog. I already tried that and she is wise to it. I had a trainer bring out 3 different dogs. She sensed what was taking place and we couldn't gets a reaction after the first time.

So I feel I have to go with "chance" encounters. My gut feel is I might be able to fix this with a few reasonably strong stims.

Does anyone have additional thoughts on this aggravating problem.


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## Selena van Leeuwen

It's all in the package....it is part of her personality, why work on it?

I have 7 of these dogs, you gotta love them :mrgreen: It means to have eyes everywhere with strange dogs or people, knowing your dogs and their body language and good ob. It also means you can't take them to town of dogparcs or such. If I have would wanted that I get a pug or a lab retriever (not meaning to be offensive to the lab or pug owners).


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## Lee H Sternberg

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> It's all in the package....it is part of her personality, why work on it?
> 
> I have 7 of these dogs, you gotta love them :mrgreen: It means to have eyes everywhere with strange dogs or people, knowing your dogs and their body language and good ob. It also means you can't take them to town of dogparcs or such. If I have would wanted that I get a pug or a lab retriever (not meaning to be offensive to the lab or pug owners).


Maybe "work on it" was the wrong wording. I know she will always have a dog aggressive temperament. I would never take her to dog parks. 

I do want her to be able to pass relatively by another dog without going totally nuts. I was considering the ecollar to encourage her to focus on me during a encounter with another dog.

I've been working hard on obedience. She does fine with the exception of another dog invading what she considers her space.

I tried every other method I can think of to create focus in that circumstance.


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## Selena van Leeuwen

Don't expect her to ignore totally another dog (esp. a female) in her personal space, certainly not when she's in heat (if you think she antisocial now to another female, wait for her heat :mrgreen: ) or pregnant. 

You can reach the phase she will do a good heel with another dog on 4-5 m or so. Low stim/pager and reward (food/ball/tug) will do the trick.


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## Lee H Sternberg

I was hoping for 2 meters (6 feet) but if 4-5m is all I can hope for, so be it. :smile:


----------



## Emilio Rodriguez

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Get the obedience correct, and then you can correct for stupid stuff like lunging.
> 
> I tend to skip that part and just crack them in the head and say no. For your situation, and the fact that I cannot see the dogs exact reaction, I would stick with the above formula.
> 
> I absolutely do not put up with this stuff, but that is just me. If the dog is ok environmentally, then to me it is just being an asshole, and I will not tolerate it period.





Jeff Oehlsen said:


> As with everything, corrections are an art form. There is always a reason I do what I do, and with my amazing inability to type even a bit faster than snails, I left out a lot of what else I would do with the pup.
> 
> When I say that I would crack the dog in the head, I am not kidding, but the after is most important. I am looking to get the dog to look at me. I need the dog to understand that I do not approve, but also that I am the one deciding. When the dog looks, I am going to attract the dog, and start babbling on about what a good dog for a second. I do not know how to tell what I would do exactly with your dog, but I know what to do with my dog. I am not often verbally challenged, but this one I go off of feel for what the dog is doing.
> 
> I absolutly disagree with a pinch for this kind of stuff.....big suprise, I rarely use one, but I will shake a pup till snot bubble come out if it thinks it is going to ignore me, and continue to act retarded.
> 
> A ppd is of no use if you cannot take it safely out into the world. Kind of like a dog on a chain in the backyard. I have not broken a pup of anything except asshole behavior, and I have yet to see this fail. I have had extremely civil dogs in the past, and was able to handle them in public with no problem.


^^^ I agree for the most part and that would be my first approach but there are other considerations.

This wouldn't work nearly as well or not at all with a dog that's doing it out of fear, but this doesn't seem to be the case here. The dog is making a decision, it's capable of making another decision (not to do it) if you give it incentive.

I do think doing obedience first is safer. It gives the dog a job/something to focus on. As it is she's looking for things to do and focusing on people's gestures. A heel command with you stopping and the dog sitting at heel for a long time giving it a chance to forget that it's still at heel and making a move then correcting it.

I don't like the prong either for certain things. For dealing with a pup or my own dog that I know will not turn on me I like to use a very physical correction that is obvious to the dog it's coming from me, my face, my hands.

Eventually the dog will need to be corrected for this without being under the influence of an obedience command. It is still within the boundaries of obedience though because it's on leash and that in itself has rules.

This should work well and you'll know very fast if it does. But it also may not work well and then you know that the issue was fear. If the dog was making a decision to react this way and it's mind is not clouded by fear then it will work.

I also do what you do except by the entrance to publix. Sometimes I feel that I'm setting up the dog too much and almost provoking a bad reaction from it. You have to be very sure about what you expect from the dog when you do this. Like Jeff said it's simply not tolerated but you have to really believe this. If you don't and have doubts deep down that maybe you're killing the dog's temperament or something it will transmit through to the dog and your actions will not be finite.

With all that said I've experienced dogs that have a very strong drive for one thing or another. For example the desire to grab a small dog. When this is combined with intelligence the result can be a dog that is very very difficult to break from the behavior. The dog know that you don't approve and for the most part will be under control, but then comes a time when the desire is so strong that it does it anyways. Sort of the "You can kill me later but I'll do it now" mentality. You really have to start it with your dog to find out which way it will go. The earlier you start it the better chance you have of getting this behavior under control.

I don't think this changes the core of the dog with a strong dog. You'll probably always have to be careful. A muzzle will be a good buffer and allow you to relax and then switch yourself to correction mode when necessary otherwise your tension may affect the dog.

In the end though it's a dog whose genetics call for that behavior. In some cultures a dog is not meant to draw the kind of stupid attention it receives in north America. A look from a stranger is bad news so the dog acts preemptively. If you don't want a dog like this then you shouldn't have gotten it and to a degree it's unfair to change it with hard corrections. Maybe where you're going with it you'll find her natural behavior more acceptable. But in the US the bottom line is it's either corrections or the dog gets left at home.

The analysis of whether the predisposition to behave like this is indicative of a weakness somewhere else is debatable and a whole other issue.

I wonder about one last thing. You know of course that just being on leash is a way of making the dog more territorial, same like putting it in a car or tying it to a post. Avenue of escape is blocked, stress levels rise and the dog is much more likely to behave aggressively. I wonder how your dog would do in those situations if it was off leash. You could probably set up a safe situation with the dog off leash and wearing a muzzle. Make sure the dog is neutral to the muzzle by having it wear the muzzle on and off around the house for a week before you do this. When you bring the dog into the situation for the first time and its wearing a muzzle try to do it off leash the whole time.


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## Lee H Sternberg

Emilio - I'm pretty much following most of you suggestions. I try do try to go slowly with her. It is working. She's come a long way since hanging off the back of a park bench trying to bite everyone passing by.

I'm fairly certain I'm not conveying any of my own personal stress to her. Since my initial shock of just how extreme she is, I haven't been personally stressed. 

The territorial leash comment you had towards the end of your post is very interesting. I can BS with a neighbor out front with her off leash. She will ignore the neighbor and play very close by. Three different times she approached different neighbors, sniffed their hands and then continued with what she was doing.

The mentality in C.R. is entirely different towards dogs. When I would walk my Rott in a strange town, people would grab their kids and cross the street to a different sidewalk.

Thanks


----------



## Christopher Jones

I had a Dobermann male from good lines and as a pup he showed alot of defence and suspision of strangers. He was very sharp towards strangers. At about 9 months of age we did some strong bitework training. He was at the end of the lead and bite first time. He had enough courage and drive to commit to the bite from a civil decoy. Anyways, after about 3 sessions he was a different dog. He was scared of no-one and his confidence went through the roof. He also wasnt worried anyone walking past or at a distance. 
To this day I have never seen a more civil, sharp and dangerous dog than him. He was a two person dog and would never accept another person to be part of his pack. He was indifferent to strangers with no interest in affection from people outside of me and my gf. He was 100% stable with us, he had good nerves, strong drives, extreme aggression and huge pain tollerance. I never heard him yelp and his tail never lowered.
But, he was a dog that when he was young he didnt know how to react with strangers and wasnt sure what the deal was, but once he learnt that he could take out anyone, he didnt need to worry about strangers. However, he never lost his quick trigger and blind aggression.


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## Gillian Schuler

Well, now I know I've got an anti-social dog:mrgreen: 
Selena's post I can identify with.

Jeff's, I can sign. Whatever type of dog I have, if they're on the leash, lunging, growling or whatever, I get narked. I don't need to question why they're doing it. It doesn't need long discussions on what would be better. It just needs stopping "at the double" with whatever means you have. It doesn't have to pain the dog, although there are some nutheads that need a sledge hammer - but who's got one when out?

I once faced a dog who was on the leash, on its hind legs ready to attack, with it's owner just holding the lead safely because he was a large man. My Fila looked across at him and I knew if I took a step he'd lunge so I knocked him between the eyes with my fist - hurt me more than him - but he remembered who was at the end of HIS lead and looked up at me so all I needed to do was say "Fuss" and carry on walking. It's no good talking to a dog as long as he's fixated on another dog - he can't hear you.

I actually don't think he needs praise or kibble when he "comes down from the trip" . Can be dangerous - can mean to him - Oh! good, I can lunge again.

Lee, you know your dog so only you can communicate with it.


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## Lee H Sternberg

Christopher Jones said:


> I had a Dobermann male from good lines and as a pup he showed alot of defence and suspision of strangers. He was very sharp towards strangers. At about 9 months of age we did some strong bitework training. He was at the end of the lead and bite first time. He had enough courage and drive to commit to the bite from a civil decoy. Anyways, after about 3 sessions he was a different dog. He was scared of no-one and his confidence went through the roof. He also wasnt worried anyone walking past or at a distance.
> To this day I have never seen a more civil, sharp and dangerous dog than him. He was a two person dog and would never accept another person to be part of his pack. He was indifferent to strangers with no interest in affection from people outside of me and my gf. He was 100% stable with us, he had good nerves, strong drives, extreme aggression and huge pain tollerance. I never heard him yelp and his tail never lowered.
> But, he was a dog that when he was young he didnt know how to react with strangers and wasnt sure what the deal was, but once he learnt that he could take out anyone, he didnt need to worry about strangers. However, he never lost his quick trigger and blind aggression.


My dog has did bitework all last summer and we are preparing to begin again after the snow is off the ground. Bitework is her joy in life. For a pup she is very calm, clear headed and totally focused on the decoy.

Similar to your Doberman, she is very stable in her pack. She adores my seven year old son and is very gentle.

I detect no lack of confidence with strangers. If anything the opposite is the case.


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## Lee H Sternberg

Gillian Schuler said:


> Well, now I know I've got an anti-social dog:mrgreen:
> Selena's post I can identify with.
> 
> Jeff's, I can sign. Whatever type of dog I have, if they're on the leash, lunging, growling or whatever, I get narked. I don't need to question why they're doing it. It doesn't need long discussions on what would be better. It just needs stopping "at the double" with whatever means you have. It doesn't have to pain the dog, although there are some nutheads that need a sledge hammer - but who's got one when out?
> 
> I once faced a dog who was on the leash, on its hind legs ready to attack, with it's owner just holding the lead safely because he was a large man. My Fila looked across at him and I knew if I took a step he'd lunge so I knocked him between the eyes with my fist - hurt me more than him - but he remembered who was at the end of HIS lead and looked up at me so all I needed to do was say "Fuss" and carry on walking. It's no good talking to a dog as long as he's fixated on another dog - he can't hear you.
> 
> I actually don't think he needs praise or kibble when he "comes down from the trip" . Can be dangerous - can mean to him - Oh! good, I can lunge again.
> 
> Lee, you know your dog so only you can communicate with it.


I don't "baby" her. I am trying to go as easy as possible with her until after another heat or two. All my efforts seem to be working slowly but surely.

A case in point occurred last weekend. She is not just antisocial but dog aggressive. The neighbor's dog got out when her kid opened their front dog. I was in the front yard with my unleashed female.

Before I knew what was going on my dog was across the street before the other dog even got out of her yard. The other dog was making a beeline for my female.

My dog got in the first bite before I called her back to me.

Holy crap, much to my surprise she stopped and came back to my side. 

I had my ecollar transmitter ready for a stim. I never needed it. :smile:

It is soooo nice to see the fruits of your labor directly pay off.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Lee,

It seems you're taking a lot of risks with this dog having it off lead. The way you've described her I wouldn't be surprised if one day she says to he** w/ the e-collar. Here she got a bite in before you called her back. This seems to be the type of dog that you must always think ahead and micromanage to prevent disaster [unjustified bite]. I would be very concerned about the potential for liability; especially since you know her propensities and you are training her in bite work. My rule of thumb is always be in control of the dog's head [and teeth]; which means a leashed attached to me and I don't care how much training I've put into the dog. 

Terrasita


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## Lee H Sternberg

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Lee,
> 
> It seems you're taking a lot of risks with this dog having it off lead. The way you've described her I wouldn't be surprised if one day she says to he** w/ the e-collar. Here she got a bite in before you called her back. This seems to be the type of dog that you must always think ahead and micromanage to prevent disaster [unjustified bite]. I would be very concerned about the potential for liability; especially since you know her propensities and you are training her in bite work. My rule of thumb is always be in control of the dog's head [and teeth]; which means a leashed attached to me and I don't care how much training I've put into the dog.
> 
> Terrasita


This was a dog bite, not a human. I know this dog. She crumbles with just a ecollar page. If I stim her even at 30 on a Dogtra 1700, that goes up to 127, she goes into total avoidance. I have it set on 60 if I'm in a public place.

She knows all my human neighbors and goes up to them, mingles with them and sniffs their hands regularly. My neighbors on all 3 sides are dog people and know this dog. In fact they have assisted me with her early socialization.

In ANY OTHER PUBLIC PLACE I am responsible enough to leash her AT ALL TIMES with the ecollar transmitter in my hand.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Hhhhhmmmm, I've been following the threads on the dutchies---interesting breed and maybe I'm just overly impressed with their hardness, social agression, dominance, etc. I didn't mean to insinuate that you were not responsible. I've heard of dogs [bouviers mostly] very e-collar responsive as young dogs, just as you describe yours. Then low and behold one day they start blowing right through them. The other side of the coin is the dog that is as social as it gets as a young dog and really becomes more anti--social with maturity. I wouldn't write in stone that she is safe around the neighbors. She's seems to be tolerating them. I have a hard time believing she will see them as part of the pack or training scenarios forever. First unpredictable behavior that she sees as offensive and may end up as a bite--another personal experience scenario. My own dogs have been as social as a golden retriever as young dog and completely aloof [not fear--don't care about affection and interaction with strangers] in adulthood. 

As for "just" a dog bite. That happened to me once. I walked my two GSDs twice a day when I was in school. There was an old lady with a little scruffy dog named Penny who she walked on what looked like a 30 foot line. I always just went the other way to avoid Penny's yapping and straining at the line. Well one day they appear out of nowhere. My two dogs were in heel position [left & right]. Penny ran at us and took a flying leap towards Tasha; who caught her by the neck like one of her squeaky toys. It took 20 minutes to get Tasha to let that frickin dog go. Fortunately, Penny wasn't dead but had a tear in her ear. I felt sorry for the little old lady. Boy was that wrong. What looked like the entire municipal police force showed up. Someone had phoned in "GSD attacks kid." To make matters worse, the little old lady's son was the Captain of the municipal police force. I got the ticket and despite witness statements that my dogs were leashed and compeltely under voice command [should've had a trained out]. I spent months arguing with the prosecuting attorney. His claim---"little dogs don't attack big dogs." And of course there was that lovely police escort I had all summer every time I left the apartment with the dogs. 

I understand you feel you have a certain comfort level amongst your neighbors but what if they have guests or visiting kids who don't know the dog and the rules concerning the dog and they just appear without warning. I guess it was reading "before I knew it..." Reading Selena's and other's statements regarding the breed and certain dogs, they strike me as very serious and requiring the utmost management. I figure she's only 12-14 months old and you haven't begun to see what she is ultimately going to be. I was not equating this to a human bite. Around here if dog bites another dog, its getting to be just as serious depending on the context. 

Its been very interesting and informative to read about her's and Fiona's development. Didn't mean to sound chastising. I was just remembering some of my own disasters.

Terrasita


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## Gerry Grimwood

Lee H Sternberg said:


> I know this dog. She crumbles with just a ecollar page.


Ouch, I would rethink the protection dog scenario if this was the case. Did you mean to say this ??


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## Michele McAtee

Lee H Sternberg said:


> Before I knew what was going on my dog was across the street before the other dog even got out of her yard. The other dog was making a beeline for my female.
> 
> My dog got in the first bite before I called her back to me.
> 
> 
> 
> How did you not know what was going on, yet
> 
> 1. see your dog across the street
> 2. that the other dog was not out of her yard
> 3. the other dog was beelining, and
> 4. that your dog got the first bite in
> 
> all before you had a chance to call her back?
> 
> Please be safe(er) with this dog.
Click to expand...


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: This wouldn't work nearly as well or not at all with a dog that's doing it out of fear

Why in the **** would I own a dog like that ???? LOL That dog would not be worked with, it would be sent back, or PTS. I have enough problems in life, I am not going to add to it with a shitter.


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## Lee H Sternberg

Gerry Grimwood said:


> Ouch, I would rethink the protection dog scenario if this was the case. Did you mean to say this ??



I meant that statement. I rarely even use the pager anymore. The stim is just a insurance policy. A harsh word and a occasional light flat collar leash pop is all it takes with her.

She is handler soft. She knows exactly where a ecollar page comes from.

Now, take her out of her pack and she is a entirely different dog. She's been worked by three different decoys who all agree blah, blah, blah.

That's why it has been difficult for me to understand and deal with her. She is a complex female.

She will play gently for hours with my 7 year old son. Take her to town and I have a whole different dog. I don't want to use all those over used descriptions but as she's matured I see a confident dominant bitch developing right in front of my eyes.

Three people two of which you know told me that was how it was going to evolve. The third is Balu, my trainer. I trust in the fact that he knows. If you are interested type jcbalu.com. This man knows her first hand and he knows dogs.


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## Lee H Sternberg

Michele McAtee said:


> Lee H Sternberg said:
> 
> 
> 
> Before I knew what was going on my dog was across the street before the other dog even got out of her yard. The other dog was making a beeline for my female.
> 
> My dog got in the first bite before I called her back to me.
> 
> 
> 
> How did you not know what was going on, yet
> 
> 1. see your dog across the street
> 2. that the other dog was not out of her yard
> 3. the other dog was beelining, and
> 4. that your dog got the first bite in
> 
> all before you had a chance to call her back?
> 
> Please be safe(er) with this dog.
> 
> 
> 
> This whole scenario took seconds. I didn't know the neighbors dog was out until the beeline towards my dog.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


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## Gerry Grimwood

I've never owned a female so maybe I'm just talking out of my ass, I wish you all the best with her in the future.


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## Lee H Sternberg

Hi Terrasita - I didn't take it as chastising. I do understand that everyone has honest concerns. I am with this dog 24/7. I am pretty much retired now and spend hours with these dogs. They are not kenneled. They are with me or in the fenced rear yard.

I never had to use the stim button on the ecollar for aggression. I only use the pager for animal aggression training occasionally in on walks or standing in front of Petco where I take her for training. It's a great spot because there is a lot of dog traffic.

I've gotten very good at "reading" this dog's body language. The only time she is off leash is in my front yard. There are kids there often playing with my son. If there are any kids around other than my own she is back on a leash or put away.

She does not consider the neighbor men part of her pack. Through the months they assisted me working up close with people (them) she doesn't consider pack members.

I think she has made spectacular progress from the time she stared at 7 weeks old hanging off the side of a park bench barking and trying to bite people passing by. I remained diligent throughout. I hope that is why she never has bitten anyone but the trainer. That would not have happened if I was standing there vwith some stranger.

I've been a open book and described events with this dog a honest as I possibly could. I needed some helpful suggesstions trying to deal with this hellion. Most everyone, including some people not on this forum, has been great. I have a thick skin and find it easy to blow off the aggitators. Other than a few everyone has helped me a lot.

Frankly, I never owned a dog like her and would have been somewhat lost without help. :-D


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## Lee H Sternberg

Gerry Grimwood said:


> I've never owned a female so maybe I'm just talking out of my ass, I wish you all the best with her in the future.


Me neither. Gerry. My male is soooo much easier to "read". I can't "read" my wife much of the time either. :-D

I'm not insinuating that I own her. I think she owns me.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Haha, nice save--regarding the wife. Lee, our intense dog is our now soon to be13 year old bouvier, Thor. He's been pretty mellow since about Age 5-6 but as a young dog the house rule was tight security. You could take him anywhere--not the type to lunge or growl but he could care less about anyone outside our household---except kids--adores them. Stupid stuff like a guy walking up and reaching over me full frontal while I was sitting down, could set him off. A platz from me and down he would go instantly but I ALWAYS had to watch him. He was definitely higher suspicion and all foward aggression. Once triggered, nothing barrier-wise was going to stop him. There was the three hundred dollar windshield on the SUV and he ran head on straight through the chain link fence in different places of course. That was mind blowing. Until him, I thought I had a handle on the tough intense dog. He has been an awesome dog but definitely high maintenance.

Please keep up the updates.


Terrasita


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## Michele McAtee

Lee H Sternberg said:


> This whole scenario took seconds. I didn't know the neighbors dog was out until the beeline towards my dog.


I know these situations happen in seconds. Faster than that it seems. It still sucks that your dog attacked another dog. You can do better. FWIW, I am glad you are dedicated to getting it right.


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## Gillian Schuler

Michelle, it's clear he can do better. So can anyone else whose dog attacked another dog. Own up, whose dog has bitten another dog????????

But, I'm all for keeping the ball low.

It's not all that long ago that such occurences would have been settled (unknown to others) between bitten dog owner and culprit's owner. No big deal.

I'm not condoning. I'm just saying that in the dog world, these things happen. They shouldn't, as you say, but they do. There is no PERFECT DOG OWNERSHIP.

I don't know how many times we had cases like this, my dogs were attacked, my dogs bit others. But, no critic was forthcoming. We tended to think, ok. dogs will be dogs. The main thing is, the bitten dog receives treatment - the owner of the other dog pays for it. No big deal?? 

I also tend to differentiate between dog bites dog and dog bites human. Here, it's not so simple.


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## Lee H Sternberg

Gillian Schuler said:


> Michelle, it's clear he can do better. So can anyone else whose dog attacked another dog. Own up, whose dog has bitten another dog????????
> 
> But, I'm all for keeping the ball low.
> 
> It's not all that long ago that such occurences would have been settled (unknown to others) between bitten dog owner and culprit's owner. No big deal.
> 
> I'm not condoning. I'm just saying that in the dog world, these things happen. They shouldn't, as you say, but they do. There is no PERFECT DOG OWNERSHIP.
> 
> I don't know how many times we had cases like this, my dogs were attacked, my dogs bit others. But, no critic was forthcoming. We tended to think, ok. dogs will be dogs. The main thing is, the bitten dog receives treatment - the owner of the other dog pays for it. No big deal??
> 
> I also tend to differentiate between dog bites dog and dog bites human. Here, it's not so simple.


Please understand this dog was charging my dog. I used the phrase "beeline". My dog in turn charged the other dog and got in ONE bite before I was able to handle the situation. 

There was nothing to it. No damage, no marks, no blood, no big deal. It was over in a couple of seconds.


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## Michele McAtee

Ok, will fess up.

I was a bit "charged" lets say because literally, my new girl was attacked at club not 4 hours before I read Lee's situation and responded. Screwy deal, you know the ones. S#%& does happen. Every day.

I think we can ALL do better-DOH! We are training dogs.


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## Gillian Schuler

Lee, lighten up, I'm on your side. GOT IT?? That's why I said dog ownership will always have risks. 

C'mon, nobody's perfect, think about car accidents. we're all good drivers, but it happens, FGS.

Michelle, glad of the "fess up". It's true, we can alll do better but, either you keep your dog in a golden cage or you face the elements and take the consequences. The alternative is creeping around at midnight, hoping Mrs SoandSo isn't around with her aggressive pooch!

I'm the last one to criticise - my copy book has been blotted many a time.


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## Lee H Sternberg

Gillian Schuler said:


> Lee, lighten up, I'm on your side. GOT IT?? That's why I said dog ownership will always have risks.
> 
> C'mon, nobody's perfect, think about car accidents. we're all good drivers, but it happens, FGS.
> 
> Michelle, glad of the "fess up". It's true, we can alll do better but, either you keep your dog in a golden cage or you face the elements and take the consequences. The alternative is creeping around at midnight, hoping Mrs SoandSo isn't around with her aggressive pooch!
> 
> I'm the last one to criticise - my copy book has been blotted many a time.



Hey Gillian I understood your post. All is well! I understood you were on my side.:grin:

I don't get hostile over this kind of thing. I'm working hard to get it right.


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## Gillian Schuler

Lee, I know where you're coming from. I have an extremely territorial dog. Outside the property, he's ok but inside he's very fierce. Outside he's better but still needs control. He's a terrific working dog, very intense in protection, a bull in a china shop in obedience but fortunately, a very natural and good tracker.

I tend to go with the theory, what you've got, you've got and have to handle it. It's not always easy but achievable. No dog leaves the homestead here alive. Not even the two-leggeds, husband included :-D


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## Lee H Sternberg

OK Michele, lets see if you like this better! :smile:

Both of my dogs were in my driveway doing some off leash obedience exercises. The neighbors dog got loose AGAIN and came charging across the street. The neighbor and his kid are screaming at this, for the most part, untrained mutt.

This time I saw the event unfolding. I put both my dogs on "sit".

The neighbor bunch catches up with their dog as it got to the edge of my driveway and they herd it back across the street, screaming all the way.

My dogs sit there calmly watching this whole event until my neighbors herd their dog into their back yard.

I praise profusely and continue our OB exercises.=D>

Not bad, I think, for a dog aggressive female. :smile:


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## Michele McAtee

Lee H Sternberg said:


> OK Michele, lets see if you like this better! :smile:
> 
> Both of my dogs were in my driveway doing some off leash obedience exercises. The neighbors dog got loose AGAIN and came charging across the street.


Lee, I told you you can do better...at that point is when you release your dog to get lunch. 

Seriously though, Excellent news. Built in neighborhood distraction. Nice work.


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