# FR vs. SchH



## Kat LaPlante (May 17, 2009)

Would you share your knowledge with me in simple terms regarding the major differences between FR and Sch? I know nothing about FR and am new to SchH. What may be the draw towards either.


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## Michael Santana (Dec 31, 2007)

They're pretty much night and day. Honetly, a good way to see some of the differences is by looking through the Video Gallery here, or using Youtube.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

The most obvious differences between French Ring and Schutzhund are FR has no tracking, the decoy (helper) wears a full body suit, the dog can bite anywhere on the suit, the order of exercises is random, and when the team walks on the field they complete the entire routine all at once. Sch has the tracking, the decoy only wears a sleeve, and the trial is broken up into 3 portions, tracking, obedience, and protection. With each portion performed with a break between them.

The work of the dog is not as regimented in Ring as it is in Sch. The Ring dog can heel on the left or right, come/recall is any position near handler (front, side, between legs, sit, down, etc.), for the retrieve they just have to be within reaching distance in a sit. The emphasis is more on getting the job done correctly and less on how the job is done. There is still strict rules about exercises though. If you are supposed to say Fido-out-guard, and you just say Fido-out, it is points off. During the heeling if the dog isn't paying attention and you give an extra heel command, 0 for the exercise. If you are standing in the wrong spot for a jump, the judge waits until your allotted time for placement runs out, and you get 0 with no chance to attempt a jump. If you walk through the landing zone of a jump you haven't performed yet, 0. If you told the judge you recall with a whistle, and forget and recall with voice, points off. When heeling, if any portion of the end of the leash is sticking out of your hand, or lying on the dogs back, 0. Sch is more concerned with the dogs performing the exercise in a pretty specific pre-defined way. Every dog has to recall the same way (to the front). Speed and enthusiasm is judged. Precision is judged. It's not just about doing the job, it's about how the job is done. Some extra commands are allowed though for points off, but not a 0 (within reason). This "get the job done" vs "how they get the job done" attitude carries over into the protection also. In Ring an escort is any position close enough to the decoy to prevent an escape, same with the guard. In Sch the dog is expected to transport in a specific way, and also to guard in a specific way. In Ring the blind search consists of "find and bark" and then the dog does whatever it was trained to do to find the guy. Some circle the field, some run up the middle air scenting, some just randomly run around, etc. In Sch the dog is expected to search the blinds in a specific pattern, as directed by the handler. 

In a Ring competition, the dog walks on the field with no leash or collar, and except for the heel on leash does not wear a leash or collar the entire time. If the leash gets tight in the heel on leash, it's an automatic 0. No physical corrections, and limited verbal corrections are allowed. (I.e. you could say "bad dog", but you can't start yelling at the dog). Also, no food is allowed. A Sch dog wears a collar at all times, how much time they spend on vs off leash depends on the level they are trialing at. Although no big corrections are allowed, I've seen dogs with tight leashes, dogs receiving minor leash corrections, etc in the heeling who still earned passing scores. Praise is also allowed in Sch, but not to be overdone (similar to Ring). 

When a Ring dog comes out to compete, he/she does all three parts (obedience, agility, and bitework) then leaves the field. A Brevet can take 15 - 20 minutes, a Ring III will take 40 minutes to an hour. A Schutzhund obedience or protection routine takes 8-10 minutes.

There is a lot more stick work during the bitework in Ring, and the stick is a baton of split bamboo, or rattan tied together to make it flair and clatter. 10 or 15 hits during an attack is fairly normal, and some decoy work includes a lot more than that, I've counted up to 60 in some videos. The stick hits in Sch are delivered at a specific time and manner, with the same number of hits (2) each time. 

The Ring decoy has way more leeway in how they work the dogs in Ring, as long as they do not work the dogs above the level they are competing at. Some decoys use mainly agility, some use threatening manners, etc. Each dog is to be initially approached and worked in the same manner as all the other dogs at that level. But if the decoy sees a weakness in the dog, they are expected to exploit that weakness to their benefit, and work the dog in a manner which will exploit it as long as they are not causing physical harm to the dog. Their job is to find weaknesses, and steal points from the dog. The Sch decoy is supposed to work every dog in the exact same manner. They all bring their own individual style in terms of how they present a threat, their speed, etc but they aren't supposed to alter their style of work based on issues they see in a specific dog.

Except for the Brevet, the order of the obedience and bite exercises in Ring is drawn at random right before the dog in white comes out. The only set order is agility, obedience, bitework. The order and height of the jumps is up to the handler. The dog in white is a "practice dog". It gives all competitors a chance to see the order of the exercises, the work of the decoy, etc. It also allows the judge to work with the decoys for that level, and "fine tune" what they do and don't want to see done. In Sch the exercises are in a specific order every time. The dog has to jump the same height every time, the handler has no control over that.

In Ring he field layout is decided by the judge. They will decide where the long sit/down is done, the guard of object, the direction for the send away, the direction of each attack, what blind to hide the decoy in, etc. Now that there are no pits for the jumps, they can also decide where they want the jumps to be. In Sch the judge also decides where things will happen, but since the order of exercises is the same each time there is less variables for the judge to work with, and the layout of a Sch field is pretty similar from trial to trial.


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## Kat LaPlante (May 17, 2009)

Wow, thank you. Now from the overview you are giving me, I like the idea of Ring over Sch, this is due to the fact that I find precision a struggle and am a "get the job done right the first time" kind of person. I am all about the executive summarry. Although I am committed to sport with my dog, I am trying to figure out which dicipline. What drew you to ring? Why did you not choose SchH?


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Kadi is a great resource for this stuff.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a66KWLbmWb0 part 1/5
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=317k1URTPGk part 2/5
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W5iC1W9XZl4 part3/5
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=agUH45NK1LM part 4/5
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DoTKXgWpSyg part 5/5


I just started with a French Ring Club. Love it! 

For me, Ring is more challenging for me and the dog but I'm still going to do schH because there are simply more opportunities for trialing and training.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Kat LaPlante said:


> What drew you to ring? Why did you not choose SchH?


I'm like you, I'm just not that much into the precision. I started out in AKC obedience, and I remember spending hours and hours over the course of weeks and months of training sessions working on that perfect front, exactly straight, the dog in exactly the same spot each time, super close but not touching. And I have to admit I remember enjoying it, but I also only had 1 dog at the time. Later I went and checked out some Schutzhund clubs and was planning to start trialing in Sch, then I went to a Ring demo. And pretty much never looked back LOL I actually still do occasionally train/trial dogs in Schutzhund, but the Ring sports better fit my personality. I can appreciate the precision of Sch, but when it comes to my own dogs I just have a hard time caring if their front is a little crooked  And since I'm not focused on the competition end of if (ie the competition between me and the other competitors, I like the trialing part) I don't really care if I'm a little fish in a little pond, or a little fish in a great big ocean. If I wanted to be really competitive, I'd only be training 1 dog in 1 venue, and putting all my time/energy into that, vs 5 dogs in 5 venues LOL



> Kadi is a great resource for this stuff.


Thank you Chris.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

You will like ring much better I believe then schutzhund, theres no comparison to which one is more day to day life oriented. But alot of people like schutzhund too for its tracking. Its really up to you what you want to do with your dog. Me personally I believe in the closest thing to training the real thing with out getting the dog or person hurt. Thats why its called training.


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

one difference not mentioned. You need to have a decent dog for ring. In schH nearly anyone can title a shitter.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Schutzhund decoys don't wear bite suits.
Schutzhund decoys don't take planned leg bites.
Schutzhund handlers/dogs must do tracking to title, none in FR.


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## Kat LaPlante (May 17, 2009)

....and another fellow who obviously appreciates the "executive summary". Thanks Howard!


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

I forgot to mention Sch judges the quality of the grip, Ring doesn't. Can't due to the nature of the decoy work.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

That was a great breakdown Kadi... FR sounds really cool, if I had any choice it would be FR as it is there are a whole three schH clubs in Scotland and a couple of working trials clubs and that is it, what reality training there is is a complete joke!

I'm not desperately competitive or precise either, just enjoy the training and involvement and a goal/standard to work toward, wish we had a FR club here.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Kat LaPlante said:


> What drew you to ring? Why did you not choose SchH?


The pure adrenalin of the bite-work in ringsport vs the choreograph of SchH. You've seen one 98-99 protection score in SchH and you've seen them all because guess what? They are all basically exactly the same. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mkOK49JYQSg Like this 9 Sch3 courage tests, the only dog any different than the other 8 is the last Malinois and it must've come from a ring background.  


VS the first 5 minutes of this vid showing attaque d'efface for FR http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m_7JQT6lcys&feature=related same basic setup of the courage test but never the same thing twice. 

I also like the idea the Ring is more about the dog where SchH is more about the handler as Chris pointed out. So there is less worrying about anal retentive positioning during OB. SchH tracking for me was a big turn off as I see it as a glorified OB exercise, that takes a long time to train properly. They look for something specific vs what a dog would/could do naturally. 

There is more emphasis on control during OB with SchH and less on bite as seen by handlers holding on to collars before the send the dog in the video. Where in Ring there is so much more control in the bite-work and it is all off leash. 

For me having a really driven Malinois 'Ringsport' is where the fun is.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Geoff Empey said:


> The pure adrenalin of the bite-work in ringsport vs the choreograph of SchH. You've seen one 98-99 protection score in SchH and you've seen them all because guess what? They are all basically exactly the same.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mkOK49JYQSg Like this 9 Sch3 courage tests, the only dog any different than the other 8 is the last Malinois and it must've come from a ring background.
> 
> ...


One thing I saw drastically different in those two videos was the hear of the dogs Geoff. French ring dogs judging from these two videos were the ring dogs had no remorse, went in fast and hard for the kill. Schutzhund dogs went in fast but almost threw the dam brakes on right before the bite, with the exception of the mal. Even the mal was not as hard a hitter though as the ring were. Thats why I told Her to go with ring instead of schutzhund. More powerful, real life and more heart no matter the breed. GSD in the ring video was 100 times nicer as well.


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## Michael Santana (Dec 31, 2007)

Harry Keely said:


> One thing I saw drastically different in those two videos was the hear of the dogs Geoff. French ring dogs judging from these two videos were the ring dogs had no remorse, went in fast and hard for the kill. Schutzhund dogs went in fast but almost threw the dam brakes on right before the bite, with the exception of the mal. Even the mal was not as hard a hitter though as the ring were. Thats why I told Her to go with ring instead of schutzhund. More powerful, real life and more heart no matter the breed. GSD in the ring video was 100 times nicer as well.


I agree, I think alot of that has to do with the upbringing. Ring seems to produce nicer entries. Ive seen some nice entries in schH too, seems to be a mal and dutchie thing though.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Michael Santana said:


> I agree, I think alot of that has to do with the upbringing. Ring seems to produce nicer entries. Ive seen some nice entries in schH too, seems to be a mal and dutchie thing though.


There's some crazy Schutzhund Shepherds out there, my previous and the one I have now bring it. Spend the time looking and you will find them here convenience is the norm in the US almost all the German Shepherd breeders in the US breed this way.


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## Michelle Knight (Dec 4, 2009)

Harry Keely said:


> One thing I saw drastically different in those two videos was the hear of the dogs Geoff. French ring dogs judging from these two videos were the ring dogs had no remorse, went in fast and hard for the kill. Schutzhund dogs went in fast but almost threw the dam brakes on right before the bite, with the exception of the mal. Even the mal was not as hard a hitter though as the ring were. Thats why I told Her to go with ring instead of schutzhund. More powerful, real life and more heart no matter the breed. GSD in the ring video was 100 times nicer as well.


I've been deciding between FR and ScH and based on this thread it's FR for me...now to find a club. \\/

Michelle


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## Sam Bishop (May 8, 2008)

The first bitesport trial I ever saw was Sch - I was SO impressed.....and then I saw ring.....:-o freakin' awesome!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Adam Rawlings (Feb 27, 2009)

Anyone know the name of the decoy in the red & white suit? Great work.


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## Richard Rutt (May 14, 2009)

Adam Rawlings said:


> Anyone know the name of the decoy in the red & white suit? Great work.


Fredo Beyer


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## Hans Akerbakk (Jul 1, 2008)

SchH one type of bite targeted outer forearm.
FR Decoys goal is keep from being bitten, and if bitten to try and pressure the dog off the bite, or put the dog in to fight drive so you can keep the dog in conflict with the owners commands.
FR decoy can apply 100% defensive pressure for entire fight.
FR Training decoys must teach dogs to read left and right handed human movments, and counter esquives , escapes, faints , how to counter mental pressure.
When you see a poor bite in FR this could be a great dog , but a excellent Decoy.


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## Chrystal Peters (Feb 17, 2008)

Hi Kat - I see you are from Alberta  There are a couple of FR trials in Alberta this year: one in Glenwood in July and one in Edmonton in September. There will also be a Mondio trial in Edmonton in June. Feel free to come out and see for yourself what the different ringsports are all about!


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## Carolyn Herle (Dec 29, 2009)

The seminar with Max in Glenwood should be a lot of fun plus good training. He is also a schutzhund helper so i worked my Bouviers with him the last time he was in Glenwood. I will try to get there this July.

Carolyn Herle





Chrystal Peters said:


> Hi Kat - I see you are from Alberta  There are a couple of FR trials in Alberta this year: one in Glenwood in July and one in Edmonton in September. There will also be a Mondio trial in Edmonton in June. Feel free to come out and see for yourself what the different ringsports are all about!


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## Hilde Van Durme (Feb 9, 2010)

French Ring has my preference above Shutzhund. 
More pressure towards the dogs from the decoy, a lot more anticipation asked from the dog since the decoy is unpredicable. Gives you a dog who is more alert, more agile if the dog is up to it of course


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

Doesn't it matter what breed you like as well? For example if you like GSD you go with shutzhund if you like French Ring you go with malinois.


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## Hilde Van Durme (Feb 9, 2010)

Ben Thompson said:


> Doesn't it matter what breed you like as well? For example if you like GSD you go with shutzhund if you like French Ring you go with malinois.


 
That depends on the dog. In general you'll see more GSD in Shutzhund and more Malinois in French Ring, Mondio and Belgian Ring but I have seen some pretty good GSD in French Ring also.


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## Ben Colbert (Mar 9, 2010)

Let me step up and be the one to defend schutzhund. Ring is cool looking I'll admit, but I enjoy the regiment of schutzhund. Schutzhund is an obedience exercise through and through. It takes not only a capable dog but a capable handler to take a dog to SCHIII. Does a one GSD getting a 98/98/98 look the same as another 98/98/98? Yep. But Schutzhund may be fun to watch but its not a spectator sport. I bet both GSD's were trained completely different and had completely different hang ups and issues. I've seen as many different problems with the send out as I've seen dogs and I've seen different solutions to each.

Is watching ring more fun than watching schutzhund? Hell yeah, but I'm not in it to watch.


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

ok, this is JMO. and keep in mind i'll be "attempting" to train Ike for Sch titles. I personally like different aspects of both Sch and ring sports. 

i see Sch as the "dressage" of dog sports: precision is all. as ben c. stated, it's about OB mostly. i do NOT think "if you've seen one, you've seen them all". we've all seen ( think) the videos of the sieger protection routine which was not only ludicrous, but sad as well. let's not even talk about that.

in a given Sch trial, or two, or three, watching any given dog on any given day, with any given judge--they are all different (same in ring i think). and i think in both sports, anyone who's been watching can appreciate the difference.

i love the challenges that ring dogs have to work through, if it was up to me, Ike would try first at ringsport--but i have the opportunities i have. i would LOVE to have a dog someday that would excel at both (not in THIS lifetime), even at club level. 

ben t., keep in mind that Sch IS ultimately a test for GSD breeding potential--not Mals/Rotts/etc. not that it's so great these days in some venues...as far as breeding value. makes me sad that dogs that can only trot (?) around a ring actually title as Sch3. but that's another, well-chewed, discussion.


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## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

Hilde Van Durme said:


> That depends on the dog. In general you'll see more GSD in Shutzhund and more Malinois in French Ring, Mondio and Belgian Ring but I have seen some pretty good GSD in French Ring also.




dont mals dominate schutzund?


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

Matt Grosch said:


> dont mals dominate schutzund?


Maybe, maybe not. I was just looking at the SC Sch Regional championship scores. A Mal took 1st, HIT, etc., but 2nd and 3rd were GSD's.

The 2010 Working Dog Championship so far has one Mali, and about 10 GSD's entered. Will keep an eye on that one.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Matt Grosch said:


> dont mals dominate schutzund?


In whos world?
There are a very small hand full of people her in the US that can trial the same Mali consistently through the dogs career at a championship level with out detonation. Can you name 3 handlers that have remained on top of the heap for the last five years with the same dog.


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## Ben Colbert (Mar 9, 2010)

Why is it that Mali's "detonate"?


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Ben Colbert said:


> Why is it that Mali's "detonate"?


My guess is most dont know how to train them. Dunno? Its just my observation


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## Ben Colbert (Mar 9, 2010)

You made this comment and I sincerely don't now what it means. What does detonate mean? Are you just saying that from what you've seen GSD's last longer in the sport?


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

When you look at the FCI's and DVG Meisters for example where all breeds are represented normally 80% of the top ten are Malis, usually the first five being Malis. However most GSD's tend to only trial in the GSD events such as WUSV and BSP etc from what I have seen.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Ben Colbert said:


> What does detonate mean?


Break a part of the training that they arnt able to fix.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Ben Colbert said:


> Are you just saying that from what you've seen GSD's last longer in the sport?


GSD's I dont think there wound as tight and prolly more forgiving and easier to repair when mistakes are made.


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## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

all Ivan B's mals in the top schutzhund spots?


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Mike Scheiber said:


> In whos world?
> There are a very small hand full of people her in the US that can trial the same Mali consistently through the dogs career at a championship level with out detonation. Can you name 3 handlers that have remained on top of the heap for the last five years with the same dog.





Matt Grosch said:


> all Ivan B's mals in the top schutzhund spots?


Back to my OP yup Ivan is one I wouldn't say all, hes been playing with the show dog for the last couple of years. Rock's a nice dog he'll be kicking some ass with him in years to come.


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## Hilde Van Durme (Feb 9, 2010)

Mike Scheiber said:


> GSD's I dont think there wound as tight and prolly more forgiving and easier to repair when mistakes are made.


The attraction of watching a Malinois at work in any ring sport is just the fact that it can be very explosive, at least thats what I like to see. Such very high driven dogs can be more open to injuries if the handler doesn't watch out. 

Said that, such explosions you rarely find in Shutzhund where its not necessary for the dog to show that, there its more about executing a high definition program of obedience and the precision of the bite.

Having said that in general, I say in general, I think a GSD will alway's work better in Shutzhund but not necesarely in Ring whilest a Malinois can do both perfectly. Don't shoot me off on this...

But I would never do both together, it confuses the dog too much. What I do see is that some IPO Malinois when they get their IPO 3 switch to Mondio and thats a very good choice of the handler.


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## Jhun Brioso (Dec 28, 2009)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> The most obvious differences between French Ring and Schutzhund are FR has no tracking, the decoy (helper) wears a full body suit, the dog can bite anywhere on the suit, the order of exercises is random, and when the team walks on the field they complete the entire routine all at once. Sch has the tracking, the decoy only wears a sleeve, and the trial is broken up into 3 portions, tracking, obedience, and protection. With each portion performed with a break between them.
> 
> The work of the dog is not as regimented in Ring as it is in Sch. The Ring dog can heel on the left or right, come/recall is any position near handler (front, side, between legs, sit, down, etc.), for the retrieve they just have to be within reaching distance in a sit. The emphasis is more on getting the job done correctly and less on how the job is done. There is still strict rules about exercises though. If you are supposed to say Fido-out-guard, and you just say Fido-out, it is points off. During the heeling if the dog isn't paying attention and you give an extra heel command, 0 for the exercise. If you are standing in the wrong spot for a jump, the judge waits until your allotted time for placement runs out, and you get 0 with no chance to attempt a jump. If you walk through the landing zone of a jump you haven't performed yet, 0. If you told the judge you recall with a whistle, and forget and recall with voice, points off. When heeling, if any portion of the end of the leash is sticking out of your hand, or lying on the dogs back, 0. Sch is more concerned with the dogs performing the exercise in a pretty specific pre-defined way. Every dog has to recall the same way (to the front). Speed and enthusiasm is judged. Precision is judged. It's not just about doing the job, it's about how the job is done. Some extra commands are allowed though for points off, but not a 0 (within reason). This "get the job done" vs "how they get the job done" attitude carries over into the protection also. In Ring an escort is any position close enough to the decoy to prevent an escape, same with the guard. In Sch the dog is expected to transport in a specific way, and also to guard in a specific way. In Ring the blind search consists of "find and bark" and then the dog does whatever it was trained to do to find the guy. Some circle the field, some run up the middle air scenting, some just randomly run around, etc. In Sch the dog is expected to search the blinds in a specific pattern, as directed by the handler.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the explanation Kadi.. 

OFF TOPIC: I have a pup out of OSLO & ORPHEE's Daughter. The name of the pups dam is Torly des ombres valeureux. Oslo is once with you right?


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

ben t., keep in mind that Sch IS ultimately a test for GSD breeding potential--not Mals/Rotts/etc. not that it's so great these days in some venues...as far as breeding value. makes me sad that dogs that can only trot (?) around a ring actually title as Sch3. but that's another, well-chewed, discussion.[/quote]


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I think you should all take a travel in time into 2010!

For a number of years, the SchH trial has not been an evaluation trial as to the dog's potential.

Most of the Europeans, Germans, Swiss, Austrian, etc. admit it.

What will it take for the GSD fans on the other side of the ditch to admit it?


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## Hilde Van Durme (Feb 9, 2010)

Gillian Schuler said:


> I think you should all take a travel in time into 2010!
> 
> For a number of years, the SchH trial has not been an evaluation trial as to the dog's potential.
> 
> ...


 
My eyes are wide open when I came to the DR. In Belgium I rarely came in contact with GSD but here they are very popular...as guarddog :-&. Some people paid a lot of money for a dog who has no drive at all, frequently had the wrong training in his first 8 months by some malafide buyers/breeders and when they see me working with my Malinois...they want their dog to do that also and I cannot explain to them that its either made impossible by the training they already had or either that they have bought themselves a dog which has totally no potential at all...hard to explain that in a tactfull manner...


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## David Feliciano (Oct 31, 2008)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> In a Ring competition, the dog walks on the field with no leash or collar, and except for the heel on leash does not wear a leash or collar the entire time. If the leash gets tight in the heel on leash, it's an automatic 0. No physical corrections, and limited verbal corrections are allowed. (I.e. you could say "bad dog", but you can't start yelling at the dog). Also, no food is allowed. A Sch dog wears a collar at all times, how much time they spend on vs off leash depends on the level they are trialing at. Although no big corrections are allowed, I've seen dogs with tight leashes, dogs receiving minor leash corrections, etc in the heeling who still earned passing scores. Praise is also allowed in Sch, but not to be overdone (similar to Ring).


Kadi, have you ever heard the phrase "there are no leashes in schutzhund"? For levels 1-3 in, obedience and protection, the leash comes off at the gate before you step onto the field and does not go back on until the end of the routine. I wasn't aware that verbal corrections were allowed in French Ring. In schutzhund you would be dismissed for using an irregular command if you were to say "bad dog". In fact you would be dismissed for much less such as telling the dog to out if he bites in the blind. 

I'm not sure where you saw dogs being corrected in the heeling as the heeling for all levels of schutzhund obedience is "free heeling" and by definition off leash. You may be referring to a BH which is not a schutzhund title but rather a companion dog test required to enter a schutzhund competition. IPO does not require a B


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## Hilde Van Durme (Feb 9, 2010)

David Feliciano said:


> Kadi, have you ever heard the phrase "there are no leashes in schutzhund"? For levels 1-3 in, obedience and protection, the leash comes off at the gate before you step onto the field and does not go back on until the end of the routine. I wasn't aware that verbal corrections were allowed in French Ring. In schutzhund you would be dismissed for using an irregular command if you were to say "bad dog". In fact you would be dismissed for much less such as telling the dog to out if he bites in the blind.
> 
> I'm not sure where you saw dogs being corrected in the heeling as the heeling for all levels of schutzhund obedience is "free heeling" and by definition off leash. You may be referring to a BH which is not a schutzhund title but rather a companion dog test required to enter a schutzhund competition. *IPO does not require a B*


 
To my knowledgde you cannot enter IPO 1 before passing the BH test?
As the same for Mondio or French Ring, first brevet and then you can enter level 1
What verbal commands are concirned, I do not believe that in any program it is permitted to talk to your dog when doing the heeling exercise. In French Ring you go to your startpoint with your dog given the command of your choise and at the point of the judge you start with exactly that same commando and after that...silence or 0 points.


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## Virginia Rulli (Jan 26, 2009)

No, you are not required to pass the brevet in Mondioring in order to compete for level 1. You can start at MR 1 if you choose. In French Ring it is different I believe? Please correct me if I'm wrong.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Virginia Rulli said:


> No, you are not required to pass the brevet in Mondioring in order to compete for level 1. You can start at MR 1 if you choose. In French Ring it is different I believe? Please correct me if I'm wrong.


Yes you need a Brevet before a lvl 1 in FR. You also require a CSAU temperament test, but if you have a BH that is not required.


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## Hilde Van Durme (Feb 9, 2010)

Sorry, my mistake then. No brevet required for Mondio but yes for French Ring.


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## David Feliciano (Oct 31, 2008)

Hilde Van Durme said:


> To my knowledgde you cannot enter IPO 1 before passing the BH test?
> As the same for Mondio or French Ring, first brevet and then you can enter level 1
> What verbal commands are concirned, I do not believe that in any program it is permitted to talk to your dog when doing the heeling exercise. In French Ring you go to your startpoint with your dog given the command of your choise and at the point of the judge you start with exactly that same commando and after that...silence or 0 points.


That is up to the organization holding the IPO trial. There is nothing in the IPO rules that states a BH is required for IPO 1.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

David Feliciano said:


> That is up to the organization holding the IPO trial. There is nothing in the IPO rules that states a BH is required for IPO 1.


True. Germany states a BH is required before entering IPO 1, FH, Agility, Obedience, etc. In Switzerland it is not a requirement before entering any of our trials, be they IPO or national trials.


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## Hilde Van Durme (Feb 9, 2010)

In Belgium its also required to succeed in a BH test before you can start your IPO 1, thaught it was an International requirement but it seems to differ from country to country.


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