# Malinois and Horses



## Eric Eschmann

I'm hoping for some tips to take the headache out of having my two Malinois around our horses. Although we keep them separated from the horses, the two Malinois are constantly wanting to harass the horses. They'll pace the fence of the pasture, barking at the horses or lunging at the fence anytime the horses are close. Through leash corrections and reminders with an e-collar, the dogs have learned to behave when I am in proximity. They will still pace the fence, but they will not bark when I am outside with them. I can call them away from the fence and they will obey. It is when I am not close by to supervise them that they choose to allow their prey drive to take over.

I have been managing the situation with bark collars and containment in crates but I'm really hoping for some suggestions to truly remedy the behavior rather than just manage the behavior. I had hoped that over time and through the constant corrections that they would eventally lose interset in the horses. That has not been the case.

Ideally the dogs would be able to be loose around the horses and ignore them. Ideally the dogs would not be chasing after the horses and trying to bite them. Ideally we would be able to ride the horses with the dogs loose and there would not be any agression. We are a long way from being ideal ](*,). I would be happy if the dogs while still separtated by the pasture fence could be left loose in the yard and without my presence not pay the horses in the pasture any mind. 

My entire acerage is securely fenced. I would prefer to leave the dogs loose, especially in my absence, but because the dogs constantly pace the pasture fence or go into the barn to harass the horses and keep up with their incessant barking when I am not there to stop them, the dogs spend much more time in their crates than I'd prefer.

Any suggestions to remedy the situation so I can have these Malinois ignore the horses will be much appreciated.


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## Walker Woods

Eric have you tried "Behavior Adjustment Training"? I have used this technique with a lot of success with dog and human aggressive dogs. It might help to focus on one dog at a time until you have your desired behavior.


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## jamie lind

Electric fence?


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## Matt Vandart

> Constant corrections


There is your problem.


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## Christopher Jones

You need to get Appie Kamps out to teach you it.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RXsfMu_IJWw


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## David Winners

IME, BAT works well for fearful behaviors, but not aggressive behaviors. The functional reward, in the case of aggression / play, is getting closer to the stimulus, not further away, which is counterproductive unless you are very good at reading the focus and excitement level of the dog. If fearful cases, the functional reward is avoidance, which is what you want in a fear biter, hence making the functional reward also the desired end state.

Since you are using an e-collar, I would recommend Lou Castle's crittering method, after proper e-collar conditioning (teaching the dog that his actions turn the collar on and off). I would not assume that because you have used the e-collar in training that the dog understands it as communication. http://www.loucastle.com/crittering This is a common sense approach to showing the dog what is acceptable behavior and what is not. 

JMHO


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## David Winners

Christopher Jones said:


> You need to get Appie Kamps out to teach you it.
> https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RXsfMu_IJWw


Adds a whole new dimension to the popular profession of horse thief.


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## Sarah Platts

Have you had these dogs since they were puppies? Have you raised them with the horses?
When the dogs are barking are the horses are there next to the fence and not out grazing across the field? If the horses are coming up and reacting with the dogs then you have self-rewarding behavior and the horses are instigating it as much as the dogs.

I'm also wondering if the dogs are bored and horse chasing is a nice outlet. What happens if you pen a dog up in the same stall or round pen with the horse. Does each accept the other without pinning ears back or trying to escape?


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## Meg O'Donovan

Sarah Platts said:


> Have you had these dogs since they were puppies? Have you raised them with the horses?
> When the dogs are barking are the horses are there next to the fence and not out grazing across the field? If the horses are coming up and reacting with the dogs then you have self-rewarding behavior and the horses are instigating it as much as the dogs.
> 
> I'm also wondering if the dogs are bored and horse chasing is a nice outlet. What happens if you pen a dog up in the same stall or round pen with the horse. Does each accept the other without pinning ears back or trying to escape?


I wondered about the age of the dogs also. 
Also how long has this barking/chasing being going on (weeks, months, years)?
If they've been "enjoying" this for some time, it will be more of a challenge to change the behavior. 
If each dog is separated from the other (kenneled out of sight/sound from the other) for a lengthy period, and then tested along the fence, only one dog at a time, what happens? (Hide so the dog thinks it is not being observed).

If you decide to enter the stall with the dog, please take only one dog at a time (and have the other confined far away, so it won't be distracting), and have a very sturdy collar/leash on the dog, a second person to help get you out if you need it, and the most mellow, least reactive horse you have. I don't want you to get kicked while assessing your dog's behavior. Same thing in the round pen, although more space means less pressure.

My dog didn't see a horse until I got her when she was almost 11 months. She, like most Malinois, has strong prey drive, and horses are prey animals, so I don't trust her not to hamstring one if unsupervised. I have socialized her with horses, sheep and chickens, but still don't trust her not to chase if the animal runs and she is left to her own impulses. Especially if she were bored rather than tired out from lots of work. So she is around them only when I am supervising. I don't want her getting kicked in the head either, which happens easily.


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## Meg O'Donovan

Christopher Jones said:


> You need to get Appie Kamps out to teach you it.
> https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RXsfMu_IJWw


Best dog & pony show I've seen. The Vanner horse and those little minis were so well-behaved, rock solid even with the barking at close proximity. Very cool.


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## David Baker

dont know if youre interested, but leerburg has a dvd about training your dog to behave around horses. might be worth a shot.


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## Eric Eschmann

Thank you for the suggestions. To answer some of your questions and offer some clarification, one of the Mals is a 6.5 y.o. spayed female. She was first introduced to a horse a year ago when we moved to a larger piece of land so as to acquire the horses. The second Mal is a 14 month old neutered male. I received him when he was 8 months old and this was his first exposure to horses.

I will look into the Behavior Adjustment Training and Crittering. I am unfamiliar with both.

I don't think electric fence is the answer. I successfully keep the animals separated, so electricity isn't needed to accomplish the segregation. I'm not sure how constant corrections would be the problem? What I have done in that regard is to have the dogs on leash (6'-30') and I will correct them if they run towards the horses or jump up on the stall doors. I have used the e-collars to reinforce a recall if they are hesitant when I call them off of the fence line. As I mentioned in the original post, when I am in the yard with the dogs or in the barn with them, they do not harass the horses because they know I will not tolerate the behavior. If I've been inside the house for a while the dogs will start to run the fence line whether the horses are close or in the rear of the pasture.

For the most part, the horses ignore the dogs. There have been occasions where the horses will lean their head down over the stall door to sniff the dogs and the dogs will respond by trying to bite the horse's face. There was one occasion when the younger Mal got loose and started chasing after the horse. Both animals were running at full steam; the horse to get away and the dog to catch her. I called to the dog and he stopped his chase and returned to me, to my pleasant surprise and satisfaction.

Penning the dogs up together with the horse(s) would be a bad idea. I have had the dogs on leash, a horse will approach and the dogs will behave as long as I'm giving them the command to do so. If the horse leans down to sniff the dog, the dog strikes at the horse.

The younger dog is more harrassing of the horses, bothering them even when they are in their stalls. The older dog paces and barks at the fence line, but doesn't harrass the horses while they're confined to their stalls. If either dog sees the horse lie down or roll, the dog goes nuts.

Although I am sure chasing a horse is fun for a Mal, they do get a lot of exercise between 4 mile runs with me, chasing squirrels and playing in the pond.


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## Sarah Platts

Thanks for answering. I didn't know how your dogs reacted in close proximity or if it only occurred when the dogs felt safe to engage in the behavior. At this point I would not allow the dogs to roam at large. They lack farm manners with livestock. Do they behave the same if they are alone or only act out when they can feed off each other's behavior? Let them out as you work with the horses: lunging, riding, grooming, etc. take the dogs with you on trail rides. Try only working with one dog at a time to prevent packing behavior. Switch who you let out and who stays penned. Sometimes one, sometimes the other, sometimes both. Then begin a gradual time where they are out with the horses, while you duck around the corner of the barn, or into the house. In other words you are moving in and out of contact. Don't leave either of them alone long enough to get into mischief. Time your trips so the dog(s) never know when to expect you to show up. Sometimes it's a few seconds, some times it's minutes, but if you see them getting bad ideas immediately turn up on the scene. Do not allow them the opportunity to be naughty. Do not hesitate to pen up. It can very well be that, in spite of your best efforts, that one or both will need to be penned when you are not around.


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## Eric Eschmann

The younger Mal is loose only when I am outside with him to monitor his behavior. The older Mal I'll leave loose if the horses are in the stalls because the the older Mal doesn't harrass the horses in the stalls like the younger Mal will. If the horses are loose in the pasture I contain that Mal, too, so she doesn't pace the fence line. The two dogs will behave the same solo or as a pair.

Sarah: I've been following your plan, for the most part, but I often have to motivate myself to renew my efforts to be consistent and stay the course.


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## Howard Knauf

Have you tried muzzling a dog then go for a ride on your horse? Muzzle keeps the dog from injuring the horse and if he gets too close he may soon learn that big prey critters can hurt them if they decide to have a go at them. Yes I know that running a horse around a prey monster seems to be the wrong approach but in this case you become part of the tribe out for a jaunt and you can control pace. Only issue may be the horse spooking and injuring you. You could do the same but have someone come along with the dog tethered to an ATV for safety reasons. It's not unlike crating the dogs in the stable but the dogs get exercise and will hopefully come to ignore the horses or look at them as traveling companions.


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## Sarah Platts

Howard's idea has some merit but be careful. If your horse panics riders, even good riders, may run into serious problems. And you sure don't want your horses taking off through a fence. Board or wire can still give you some wicked vet bills. If you have someone else available that can serve as ground back-up it would be a good thing. It may take a very long time to change their mindset if that's possible at all. Also if you bring a puppy in, do not let it learn it's ground manners from the older dogs. It will just perpetuate your problem.


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## Eric Eschmann

Howard, good to hear from you. 
As far as having the dogs in close proximity to the horses in the manner you suggest, I feel the potential for disaster is too great. The last place I want myself or family to be if a horse responds out of fear is on that horse's back. I also do not want the dog(s) able to get in a vulnerable position with the horse. I have witnessed first hand one Rottie having his jaw broken from being kicked as he chased a horse. I also had a small, fast Mal that did hang out in the pasture with some previous horses. She was fine with them except when they laid down and rolled or if the took off running. If either happened, she'd give chase. On day she got caught up under the horse and that was the end. 

I'm fine with keeping the dogs and horses permanently separated, but I'd like the dogs to take their attention away from the horses rather than running up & down the fence barking non-stop when left to their own devices.


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## Howard Knauf

Will an invisible fence cure the problem? Only issue is if the dogs run through it. It'll have to be far enough from where the horses are kept because as you know distance is your friend here if you go this route. It's a PITA for sure but sometimes all you can do is all you can do, then you have to adjust to what you have or make major changes that you might not want to make.


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## jamie lind

Howard Knauf said:


> Will an invisible fence cure the problem? Only issue is if the dogs run through it. It'll have to be far enough from where the horses are kept because as you know distance is your friend here if you go this route. It's a PITA for sure but sometimes all you can do is all you can do, then you have to adjust to what you have or make major changes that you might not want to make.


This is what I was thinking with the electric fence. Far enough back from the real fence to keep them from running the fence line. It's not a visible barrier might prevent the fence running.


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## rick smith

i doubt i could give you any advice without seeing the horses too and how you act together with them and how the horses treat the dogs, etc.

so, more Q's and observations :
- how do you use Ecollars ?
- what are you doing with the dogs besides protection and tracking ? do you do it around the horses ? you should be able to work the horses with the dogs respecting your space
- do the dogs herd the horses or just try and attack them ?
- how are the dogs when they have to stand off and you react with the horses ? will the dogs give you and the horses space ?
- looks like the dogs might respect you but not the horses. in a similar manner i have trained dogs to show respect for cats and leave them the heck alone by showing the dogs that cats belong to me and that they don't mess with my things. done the same with little kids around prey driven dogs too in parks where the kids play. so, how are your dogs around little kids playing soccer, etc. ? 
- or do you keep the dogs away from these environments because you can't trust the dogs to stay away from them too ?

- fwiw, i saw a Cesar show when he met the original horse whisperer guy and worked with him. interesting episode. the horse guy was very impressive

sorry this isn't much help but your description of how you manage doesn't give me much of a mental pic of what the problem is


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## Eric Eschmann

Invisible fence is not the way I'd prefer to go for several reasons, but it may end up being the best option.


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## rick smith

invisible fence is giving up, management and/or avoiding the problem through isolation.... very similar to crate training

i don't think you should throw in the towel just yet


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## Howard Knauf

rick smith said:


> invisible fence is giving up, management and/or avoiding the problem through isolation.... very similar to crate training
> 
> i don't think you should throw in the towel just yet


 Agreed. Though we would like to fix every negative behavoral issue in dogs there are some that just seem impossible. Dog aggression and food aggression are but just a couple. We have both seen numerous threads on these same aggression subjects and at times some dogs cannot be fully trusted even though the behavor is masked through training. My suggestion, Eric is to train each separately. Dealers choice. Use the trained dog to assist with the other. Much like one dog creating problems for others with their bad behavior, I think you can use good behavor to your advantage.


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## rick smith

for sure, i do realize all problems cannot be fixed to the level we'd like.

just saying that giving up is never an option for me.

a problem that can't be fixed certainly requires management. the less that can be fixed, the more that has to be managed. but that doesn't mean i would give up if the dog was mine and i was living with it. depending on how bad would dictate the priority i would give it

any progress is preferable, even if it isn't a lot; but that's just me and when physical barriers are set up it is easy to let them do the job and makes it easier to lose your motivation to address the problem head on. frustration sets in and overrules patience

i have worked with people that have said they wouldn't give up but their actions often didn't match up to their good intentions 
- path of least resistance is often the road of choice 

and this thread just came up yesterday and some good suggestions have been posted and i'm assuming these are not dogs that need to be turned over to another handler 

hope we get informed of what is actually tried and how it works .... or doesn't


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## Terrasita Cuffie

A couple of years ago, one of my club members got a new BC pup. When I asked how she was coming along, she said she didn't like her much. Her response to my why? was that the pup was obsessed with running down to the barn to the sheep.](*,)](*,) What self-respecting herding dog wouldn't want to be down at the barn with the sheep??? She said her others didn't. She didn't want to be bothered with the management of it--like leashes or a pen. She expected to have a herding dog running loose that wasn't interested in the sheep. Boggles my mind. As Rick indicated, I train mine that the stock are mine. The non-load and explode prey types I can leave with stock out of sight for considerable time and they don't work or harrass them. The GSDs would guard them. Part of my issues is making this about electronics and the other is two dogs packing up against the horses. There is a somewhat conflict situation between the dogs and horses that isn't always visible to the human eye. For instance from a herding dog standpoint, the horse leaning over it or walking up to it, is a challenge. I've had people contact me about training dogs to work horses as stock and I've said "no." If I'm going to correct a dog, its going to come from me not some buzzer . You'd do better turning them loose and then marching out having a come to jesus at the fence line than relying on electronics. As Rick said, they need to respect them as yours, as much on the fenceline as when you are in the barn. In one situation you are there to lead, and in another you are not. The couple of dogs that I've had around horses, didn't see them as "stock" and wasn't interested in them. Some herders work from horseback--especially with cattle. I think the dogs ignore the horses because they are on other stock. A lot of ranchers do work from the perspective that they are either smart enough to get it or they are expendable. It takes lot of time and a systematic approach to deal with the fenceline situation. Otherwise, build a different dog yard/paddock where they can't see the horses and load up. I'd pick a gorgeous day, have a knitting project [or a book ] and my comfortable chair--probably a couple of long lines. Then we would deal with the fenceline issues. I actually spent 5 hours in a pen with my bouvier and sheep to deal with a similar problem. You deal with it up close first, then work in the distance until you are finally out of sight. As someone else said, adding the collars may be more of adding to the problem not the solution--that and two dogs in a pack frenzy. 

T


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## maggie fraser

I think Howard mentioned about including the horses as part of the tribe, I would agree with this, it is what I am accustomed to seeing in this part of the world, other parts too. It's tricky though when not having raised them as pups, I do not mean raising them alongside horses as pups necessarily.

I took on an eleven month old gsd (an addition to my three other dogs, none of whom had been exposed much to horses as youngsters, but who gelled very quickly to having horses as neighbours), she had high prey drive, no previous education, zero manners, we called her Party Brain .

She got into the paddock not long after we got her and learned the hard way, fortunately she had robust constitution and no lasting adverse effect. Can I ask how well you know your horses, and how good is your control/ob off leash, and the relationship you have with the dogs? Also, how close proximity are the horses to your house/yard? Do your dogs live/spend much time in the house at all? Do you do stuff about your place with your dogs hanging out with you? How long has it been since you have moved to this larger place?


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## Kadi Thingvall

The longer the dogs are allowed to run the fence or otherwise chase the horses, the harder this will be to fix. And while you are fixing it, if the dogs are running the fence, you aren't fixing it. The dogs need to learn that the horses are off limits, period. And if they are off limits part of the time (when you are around) and it's a free for all the rest of the time, they will never be truly trustworthy.

Their behavior, based on your description, sounds like it's both prey and fear based. The horses trigger their prey drive, but also scare them. Building their confidence, along with laying down the rules, around the horses can allow them to be more relaxed around them.

I have introduced Malinois of all ages to horses, and the system/rules were the same for all of them. I used dog savy horses with good ground manners, who also knew the rules (dogs are to be ignored/tolerated/friendly towards, not to be stomped on sight) and brought the dogs around. These horses would tolerate a neutral dog walking under them but will defend themselves if needed. We started with calm situations, dog tied outside the pen while I clean it, the horse is eating, I am grooming it, etc. Doing some basic obedience in the area between the pens with horses doing horsey things in each pen. That type of thing. Any attempts by the dog to be stupid were corrected, immediately. Any calm behavior was rewarded. Dog making the right choice (looking at a horse, then deciding to look away and focus on something else) was rewarded. Then we progressed to the dog being in the same area as the horse without a barrier (in the pen, at a tie post, etc). Dog either tied to me, tied to a fence, or if I thought it was ready loose with a tab on. Once that was good we'd go for walks with someone leading the horse and someone handling the dog. These walks progressed to jogs, little lead rope lounging, etc. Next we go and repeat the process by the arena where horses are walking, trotting, cantering, etc. Then 1 person on a horse, 1 person working the dog, and we work close to each other. And finally a trail ride. Multiple people and horses, and 1 dog unless there are other already trained dogs. Having them along can help if the dog being trained is friendly because he/she will have something else to do (go chase rabbits or just run and play with the other dogs) But that way you have multiple people keeping an eye on the 1 dog being trained, plus extra people in case something does happen. At this point either have electric on the dog, or each rider carries a long dressage whip, and the horses are used to it being waved around, so they can reach the dog without dismounting if it even thinks about getting stupid.

With some of my dogs, generally the ones with more herding experience, this entire process went really fast. As in a day or two and we are trail riding. And these dogs tended to have a true "horses aren't something I work, so I'll just ignore them" attitude. With others it took longer and was more a case of "I'm not allowed to harrass the horse, doing so brings down the wrath of God, so I will go find something else to do like chase rabbits". This did eventually turn into less actual in the horses.

The big thing though is that my dogs were never allowed to chase the horses, even outside of the pen, while this training was going on. If they had been it would have just set the training back. Afterwards it's up to you, depending on your dog. My sister's Terv (long haired working Malinois) ran the outside of the fence all the time when she was lounging her horse or riding in an arena, but was an angel when he was actually around the horses, totally trustworthy. I didn't allow my dogs to do that because frankly I found it annoying.


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## Matt Vandart

Eric Eschmann said:


> Thank you for the suggestions. To answer some of your questions and offer some clarification, one of the Mals is a 6.5 y.o. spayed female. She was first introduced to a horse a year ago when we moved to a larger piece of land so as to acquire the horses. The second Mal is a 14 month old neutered male. I received him when he was 8 months old and this was his first exposure to horses.
> 
> I will look into the Behavior Adjustment Training and Crittering. I am unfamiliar with both.
> 
> I don't think electric fence is the answer. I successfully keep the animals separated, so electricity isn't needed to accomplish the segregation. I'm *not sure how constant corrections would be the problem?* What I have done in that regard is to have the dogs on leash (6'-30') and I will correct them if they run towards the horses or jump up on the stall doors. I have used the e-collars to reinforce a recall if they are hesitant when I call them off of the fence line. As I mentioned in the original post, when I am in the yard with the dogs or in the barn with them, they do not harass the horses because they know I will not tolerate the behavior. If I've been inside the house for a while the dogs will start to run the fence line whether the horses are close or in the rear of the pasture.
> 
> For the most part, the horses ignore the dogs. There have been occasions where the horses will lean their head down over the stall door to sniff the dogs and the dogs will respond by trying to bite the horse's face. There was one occasion when the younger Mal got loose and started chasing after the horse. Both animals were running at full steam; the horse to get away and the dog to catch her. I called to the dog and he stopped his chase and returned to me, to my pleasant surprise and satisfaction.
> 
> Penning the dogs up together with the horse(s) would be a bad idea. I have had the dogs on leash, a horse will approach and the dogs will behave as long as I'm giving them the command to do so. If the horse leans down to sniff the dog, the dog strikes at the horse.
> 
> The younger dog is more harrassing of the horses, bothering them even when they are in their stalls. The older dog paces and barks at the fence line, but doesn't harrass the horses while they're confined to their stalls. If either dog sees the horse lie down or roll, the dog goes nuts.
> 
> Although I am sure chasing a horse is fun for a Mal, they do get a lot of exercise between 4 mile runs with me, chasing squirrels and playing in the pond.


Try doing some positive reinforcement of incompatible behaviour like 80% positive to 20% correction at least.
Constant corrections are probably just building up the stress/tension.


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## Catherine Gervin

without knowing how to stop dogs from harassing horses i do know a good friend who used geese to stop the daughter-in-law's gorgeous Rotti from attacking her Arabians. the dog grew up on the horse farm and was allowed to roam at large all day, never any problems until foaling time in his third year of life, and then HUGE problems. protective mares and vulnerable--and very expensive--babies and miles and miles of pastureland and this very sizeable intact male would run the fences from a distance until he found a baby who wasn't glued to its' momma's side and he would duck in and attack it. once he actually got a hold of one and roughed it up quite badly before the mare came in and stomped the dog. this serious beating he took did not dissuade him, but the husband of the horse breeder very badly wanted to shoot the dog. not train it. not rehome it. shoot it. Jeannie didn't say anything, she just made the daughter-in-law confine the dog for a week while she strung the two nursery paddoks with mesh fencing and went out to purchase young geese. she bought one adult gander to mind them and put them into the mesh-fenced pastures. the Rotti couldn't get in without struggling with the second fencing and this brought the gander's attention, and then they'd make a huge commotion of hissing and barking and turmoil. Jeannie's husband said this was even worse--and sure, it really was--but in a little over a month Jeannie took down a swath of the mesh fence and right away the dog came sneaking in to chase either the confined mares and foals, who were seemingly more tempting because they were all in closer together AND had been unavailable for awhile, or to just chase the geese. the gander attacked him immediately and the dog was completely overwhelmed--this was a great big dog, no protection training, really no training at all, probably just bored and eager, but the gander totally kicked his ass. the bird chased the dog allllll over the two pastures and the dog couldn't find that hole in the second fencing right away so he was confined and terrified and attacked for many minutes. they made so much noise--the dog squealing and yelping, the bird raging and hissing, the mares screaming threats whenever they bumbled too close to the babies--that we all came out of the house to watch this craziness and nobody could seem to do much of anything but laugh. once the dog escaped the goose--and he actually followed Dresden, the Rotti, beyond his escape from the fenced paddok of doom until the dog managed to tear into the feed shed by jumping through an open window. the gander paced around the little structure like a shark circling a diver in a cage, grumbling, but eventually he left off.
Jeannie took down all the mesh fencing that next day and that dog never went near any of the pasture fencing ever again, because all those geese patrolled the inside where the horses were.
this might not do much for you with two dogs on your hands--and besides, who said you wanted to get any geese--but it was a novel solution that worked very well! i can still barely believe what i saw-- a beautiful, beefy Rottweiler, a dog who kept people in their cars if they tried to set one toe in the drive way while his owners weren't home, running for his life from a bird.


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## Howard Knauf

Kadi....Good post.

Catherine...One of my PSDs was chased down by a goose in a local recreation park at night. Funniest thing I ever saw. He had ZERO animal aggression but when he went to investigate an occupied nesting sight he got a hell of a surprise! He couldn't get back into the car fast enough! The goose almost went in right behind him. The worst part is when I tried to keep the bird from going into the car it turned its attention to me. I got a feel for what the dog went through.


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## Eric Eschmann

A lot of good suggestions have been offered. Thank you. The video on Crittering that I was linked to was very interesting. I will give that a try, although I am skeptical of my ability to create the perfect scenarios for optimum conditioning. One of the issues that I have had is dependability with e-collar corrections, something that is paramount with the Crittering approach. I use Dogtra collars and I make an effort to be sure the probes are against the skin, but there are times I go to give a stim and there is not the slightest reaction from the dog, then the next time without me having made any adjustments, the electricity connects. :-?

I have had some of the "Come to Jesus" meetings with the dogs when supervising their behavior. I believe it has been these stern corrections coupled with my positive reinforcement of their actions when they demonstrate the control that I desire for them behaving when I am present or even in sight. It is when I am not present that they have no regard for how I want them to behave, which gets back to the management aspect.

I am in agreement with working just one dog at a time around the horses. When I am actually doing structured training, I do it one dog at a time. I am outside a lot (when I'm home) and the dogs will be loose hanging out with me. If one or both wander over to check out the horses rather than choosing to hang with me or at least away from the horses, they get corrected or crated depending on how they're behaving.

We have had these horses for less than a year. The horses are used to dogs, but nice ones. The horses, if given the opportunity, will walk over to the dogs and put their noses down to sniff the dogs. No bueno!

The pasture makes up the back third of the property and the fence runs from from side property line to the other. If you'd like to know more about the layout of the house, etc. PM me and I'll give you the address so you can check it out on Google Earth. When the dogs are in front of the house, the horses are not an issue. If I do give up (which I'm not ready to, yet) an invisible fence keeping the dogs in front of the house may be the answer, but that leads to other management issues that I'd rather not address with everything from feeding the dogs to loading them up in the truck, which happens behind where the invisible fence would be. For now, the invisible fence is off of the table while I renew my efforts to instill control in the dogs that sticks even when I am not by them.

Because the dogs would run the fence if I wasn't present, they are crated when I am not watching them to prevent a free for all. Having to crate them in my absence is what I am trying to get past.

Kadi seems to have it down. I wish it came to me as easy as she lays it out. If Kadi were my neighbor I'd certainly be hitting her up for some hands on help with this. I am grateful for that outline.

The corrections I give may not be as "constant" as I have made them appear in that once the dog starts acting the fool, the dog is corrected and put away. I certainly endeavor to be consistent, but the corrections are not constant because the dogs are not allowed constant access to the fence line and I have become much more conscientious about watching the dogs when they are enjoying their freedom from the crates.


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## maggie fraser

I think Kadi has nailed it in her post, and I don't really have much to add after that. You could do with some hands on help from someone with her kind of experience and knowledge, I don't think you're achieving a whole lot by the sounds of it with your correction training or your approach. Sorry I can't offer much more than that.


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## rick smith

re: "I make an effort to be sure the probes are against the skin, but there are times I go to give a stim and there is not the slightest reaction from the dog, then the next time without me having made any adjustments, the electricity connects."
- imo handler error. don't blame electricity  

"I have had some of the "Come to Jesus" meetings with the dogs when supervising their behavior."
--- imo these should be EXTREMELY rare occasions; otherwise you will condition another problem over time

"I believe it has been these stern corrections coupled with my positive reinforcement of their actions when they demonstrate the control that I desire for them behaving when I am present or even in sight. It is when I am not present that they have no regard for how I want them to behave, which gets back to the management aspect."
--- are you restating your problem ?? the problem is NOT a management problem ... it's that your training has been ineffective and not proofed 

"I am in agreement with working just one dog at a time around the horses. When I am actually doing structured training, I do it one dog at a time."
--- fine, but there are behaviors and basic manners that need to be trained when ALL dogs are present, otherwise they feed off each other and affect each other differently than when they are handled separately. i have had 100's of multi dog owners who show me how great they are individually and how quickly that goes out the window when together. just a guess, but i think this will apply in your dog/horse work too

"I am outside a lot (when I'm home) and the dogs will be loose hanging out with me. If one or both wander over to check out the horses rather than choosing to hang with me or at least away from the horses, they get corrected or crated depending on how they're behaving."
--- this has nothing to do with training and should not be considered training. it is waiting for something to happen and than reacting to it. which makes it useless, imo 

"We have had these horses for less than a year. The horses are used to dogs, but nice ones."
--- looks like you are taking sides //lol//

"The horses, if given the opportunity, will walk over to the dogs and put their noses down to sniff the dogs. No bueno!"
--- maybe the horses need some training too ? //lol// (this has already been mentioned)

"When the dogs are in front of the house, the horses are not an issue."
--- of course  and somewhat irrelevant

".......while I renew my efforts to instill control in the dogs that sticks even when I am not by them."
--- good ... but you need a different plan than what you have been doing, not more effort

Because the dogs would run the fence if I wasn't present, they are crated when I am not watching them to prevent a free for all. 
--- management

"Kadi seems to have it down. I wish it came to me as easy as she lays it out. If Kadi were my neighbor I'd certainly be hitting her up for some hands on help with this. I am grateful for that outline."
--- what you are missing is that you need a PLAN other than crate or correct bad behavior. THAT is why it isn't coming easy 

"The corrections I give may not be as "constant" as I have made them appear in that once the dog starts acting the fool, the dog is corrected and put away."
--- see above 

"I certainly endeavor to be consistent, but the corrections are not constant because the dogs are not allowed constant access to the fence line and I have become much more conscientious about watching the dogs when they are enjoying their freedom from the crates."
--- see above again 

Kadi gave you some specifics which could be a good basis for a plan, but based on what you have written i don't think you understand what a plan really is. you just think you need more "effort" and have not yet understood why your previous methods haven't.
--- as for me, i would like it if you gave this some thought and ruffed up a plan and submitted it here where others could help you massage it. 

of course that has never happened since i've been a member, but there's always a first time 

good luck

p.s. laff all you want at Cesar, but i think you could learn something by watching the episode i referred to. it would not be a waste of time and at least you could see a trainer who REALLY understands horses, and you have some of those


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## David Winners

I'm kind of surprised no one thinks the Lou Castle Crittering training is a good idea. Anyone care to elaborate on why?

Is is because Lou drives you crazy with his multi-quote responses?

...Kind of like the one Rick just posted  LOL


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## Kadi Thingvall

David Winners said:


> I'm kind of surprised no one thinks the Lou Castle Crittering training is a good idea. Anyone care to elaborate on why?


I don't have an opinion on it one way or another, I've never taken the time to read it (or watch, is it a video?) I suspect I'm not the only person in this thread in that situation.


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## rick smith

Lou's crittering technique looks like it would very effective and i would bet money it works
- i will PAY money to see a set of vids done by a WDF member following his step by step plan exactly as it was written 
- but since it is methodical and takes time, that will prevent most people from ever trying it. or others will skip a few steps and say it didn't work for them 

- if it ain't in three lines they don't have time; the world has switched to tweeting 
- books will disappear in a few years and start gaining antique value, so don't throw em out


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## Howard Knauf

I've used Lou's method on our Black Lab explosives dog that had an aggression issue with anything on wheels. One 30 min training session and you could drive a golf cart full speed by the dog withing a few feet and the dog would ignore it. Some maintenance training was done during the following 2 months and problem solved. I've also used it on dog aggression and on dogs that chase cats, squirrels and any other manner of critter. The Lab was the best exercise to video because it was picture perfect but generally we don't video our training sessions. I'd love to have it now.


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## Matt Vandart

rick smith said:


> Lou's crittering technique looks like it would very effective and i would bet money it works
> - i will PAY money to see a set of vids done by a WDF member following his step by step plan exactly as it was written
> - but since it is methodical and takes time, that will prevent most people from ever trying it. or others will skip a few steps and say it didn't work for them
> 
> - if it ain't in three lines they don't have time; the world has switched to tweeting
> - books will disappear in a few years and start gaining antique value, so don't throw em out



Link me up and I'll do it


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## Howard Knauf

http://www.loucastle.com/crittering


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## Christopher Jones

Howard Knauf said:


> Kadi....Good post.
> 
> Catherine...One of my PSDs was chased down by a goose in a local recreation park at night. Funniest thing I ever saw. He had ZERO animal aggression but when he went to investigate an occupied nesting sight he got a hell of a surprise! He couldn't get back into the car fast enough! The goose almost went in right behind him. The worst part is when I tried to keep the bird from going into the car it turned its attention to me. I got a feel for what the dog went through.


The mental image of a police k9 and a hardened Cop both running through a park been chased by a goose, trying to get to the saftey of their squad car is quite funny.


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## Howard Knauf

Christopher Jones said:


> The mental image of a police k9 and a hardened Cop both running through a park been chased by a goose, trying to get to the saftey of their squad car is quite funny.



Yea, I was laughing my ass off at the dog until the whole scenario landed in my lap. After some fancy footwork and a slam of a car door, only then did I laugh....after looking around to see if anyone saw it.8)


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## David Winners

rick smith said:


> - i will PAY money to see a set of vids done by a WDF member following his step by step plan exactly as it was written


Challenge accepted :thumbup:

No money necessary. I've been thinking of running a dog, start to finish, through his program. I work with enough shelter dogs to try it out. It will have to wait till I get home, but I think it would be interesting. I'll find a problem child with some drive.

I have used a lot of low level stim escape training in past so I'm pretty well versed in its application. 

It would give me a chance to have Lou critique my training too.

David Winners


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## Matt Vandart

thanks howard


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## catherine hardigan

I grew up riding horses and boarded at a barn that allowed people to bring their dogs. They didn't even have to be on a leash. However, those dogs had to follow the rules: Stay out of the arena, don't shit in the barn, get along with the other dogs, leave the cats alone, leave people alone, and ignore the horses. Most dogs did fine, and that included a couple German Shepherds, a BC, a JRT, and various mongrels.

Dogs who couldn't get along were, of course, banned. Nobody had any problem with a dog getting trampled or kicked... if they couldn't learn to stay out of the way then too bad. Also, any dog that bothered a horse got the shit beat out of it.

I guess that would be my advice: If you aren't capable of teaching your dogs to have manners around stock, then let your horses kick some sense into your dogs for you. If you don't have bossy horses then beat their asses yourself. Put that leather boot and riding crop to use.


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## maggie fraser

catherine hardigan said:


> I grew up riding horses and boarded at a barn that allowed people to bring their dogs. They didn't even have to be on a leash. However, those dogs had to follow the rules: Stay out of the arena, don't shit in the barn, get along with the other dogs, leave the cats alone, leave people alone, and ignore the horses. Most dogs did fine, and that included a couple German Shepherds, a BC, a JRT, and various mongrels.
> 
> Dogs who couldn't get along were, of course, banned. Nobody had any problem with a dog getting trampled or kicked... if they couldn't learn to stay out of the way then too bad. Also, any dog that bothered a horse got the shit beat out of it.
> 
> I guess that would be my advice: If you aren't capable of teaching your dogs to have manners around stock, then let your horses kick some sense into your dogs for you. If you don't have bossy horses then beat their asses yourself. Put that leather boot and riding crop to use.


+1 :lol::lol:

GSD's, JRT's have been a very common sight around here amongst horses, very common. Those dogs learn how to be cool because they are given the opportunity and allowed to be dogs and work it out for themselves, the animals get to know each other. Dogs and horses can get along very well indeed.
Maybe what the op needs is an experienced horse person as opposed to a dog trainer.


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## Eric Eschmann

catherine hardigan said:


> If you aren't capable of teaching your dogs to have manners around stock, then let your horses kick some sense into your dogs for you. If you don't have bossy horses then beat their asses yourself. Put that leather boot and riding crop to use.


I have witnessed first hand one Rottie having his jaw broken from being kicked as he chased a horse. I also had a small, fast Mal that did hang out in the pasture with some previous horses. She was fine with them except when they laid down and rolled or if the horse(s) took off running. If either happened, she'd give chase. One day she got caught up under the horse and that was the end. 

When I am present the dogs will behave around the horses unless the horse is right on top of them, so a boot or riding crop isn't needed then. The hurdle is to get the dogs to the point that they'll ignore the horses in my absence.


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## Kat Hunsecker

Are the dogs always behind a fence or on leash, when you encounter the horses? Can they get away from the horses, or do you make them stay?

My dogs and horses pick on each other when there is a fence between them. But all do chores with me and do not bother the horses. and I made sure you don't. but they are too of leash, and with that can avoid the horses from coming to close. Then they kind of coexist together without chasing or bothering.
The first dog I took horseback with me was on leash, on the horse. she tried to bite at the nose while riding. A couple times of telling her no, in a firm way and correcting her cured this. And after a mile or so behaving going off leash was not an issue anymore. Very fast she figured out that riding is fun, and the problem solved itself.

But still as soon as there is a fence, she will pick on them and bark at them. Frist dash out of the house is iffy since she straight line charges them, usually stops at the fence though. But her daughter had learned the same behavior when the fence was involved. But she overshot it and went in the pasture, got kicked. and on top of that chewed out, bad day for her , that lasted for quite some time.

But again on rides and doing chores totally different.
I might spilt them two up for training being around horses. Get good obedience off leash, and make sure that the dogs know the horses are your and precious to you. and also the horses need to know that the dogs are precious to you also!

As Cathrine said, there needs to be rules in the stable. The horses don't kick the dogs and the other way round....


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## Ben Thompson

I don't think I would expect a dog with good drives to be alone with livestock. Polite around them yeah but alone with them ...I don't think I trust any dog that much.


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## Bob Scott

There are some excellent high drive dogs doing herding and in HGH (German style herding) the dog is left with the stock to keep it contained in a given area without the shepherd present.


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## Eric Eschmann

A big "Thank You" to Howard for his efforts in attempting to help me get over this hurdle with the dogs. We tried some things and Howard made some good suggestions for the future. The dogs have improved a lot since I first posted this thread, but they still cannot be trusted if I am not around. ](*,)


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## rick smith

nice that you checked back in, but wouldn't it benefit more members if you specifically posted what you have done that worked and what you have done that hasn't ?

i think i remember Howard posted about the "Lou C" Ecollar method to stop crittering that worked well for him. was that what you tried ? if so, give some details and others might be able to see how problems came up
- from what i know of the LC system, it requires a very precise set of steps and cautions that if you cut corners you might not get the results you want


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## Joby Becker

Howard Knauf said:


> Yea, I was laughing my ass off at the dog until the whole scenario landed in my lap. After some fancy footwork and a slam of a car door, only then did I laugh....after looking around to see if anyone saw it.8)


I was at a hotel in TN... a bunch of geese were in the parking lot...I tossed some ice cubes their way thinking they might like them..they charged me...

I thought they were bluffing and playin chicken with me, until they broke into my comfort zone, I ran back into the room, and they wouldve came right in there I am sure of it...I barely made it out of that scrape alive


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## Howard Knauf

rick smith said:


> i think i remember Howard posted about the "Lou C" Ecollar method to stop crittering that worked well for him. was that what you tried ? if so, give some details and others might be able to see how problems came up
> - from what i know of the LC system, it requires a very precise set of steps and cautions that if you cut corners you might not get the results you want


Thanks Eric.

Rick...I did in fact use the LC method. I've used it succassfully at least a dozen times but this is a hard nut to crack. Right from the git go I could tell that the dog I worked with was very collar wise. I took Eric out of the equation and worked with his dog solo mere minutes after meeting the dog. I wanted the dog to "screw up" as it were so that I can get to the task of modifying the behavior. With Eric present the dog was a gentleman so It was just me, the dog and a couple of horses.

In short order I could see the dog looking back to check me. The LC method requires that once the dog targets or looks at the undesired object then a slight constant stim is applied while the handler walks the other direction, pulling the dog back on a flat collar. No verbal commands are given. When eye contact is broken and the dog moves away from the object the stim is released. This dog knows what an ecollar is and how the correction comes. It became obvious right away given that he kept looking back at me to check my position and where I was looking. If he saw me looking out of the corner of my eye he would comply after checking me. If he didn't see me looking at him I had the opportunity to give the stim.

As per LC's protocol I started at a distance and slowly worked my way in. At one point in the training I had the dog sitting next to the corral with a horse running inside. There was little interest in looking at the horse and absolutely no chasing whatsoever. It was interesting that there was no barking, whining or whimpering from this dog when near the object of his desire. He appeared to have only a slight amount of stress from a stranger working with him. Mostly a little panting and a shake now and then.

We took a ten minute break and did some more work. We went to the corral and the dog was being pretty good. When the horse was released from the corral it ran to the stable. This triggered a response from the dog and an opportunity for me to administer stim. I then worked toward the stable and as we got closer to the one horse, the dog went into avoidance of the horse by positioning me between the two. BTW, these horses are very dog friendly and during the initial work they kept following us around. After only a couple of stims in the beginning the dog was actually trying to get away from the horses as they approached.

I can understand Eric's frustration. The only thing different in today's training as opposed to what has already been done is the human holding the lead. In the past when I've used this method I was working with dogs that were ecollar virgins. Not so in this case. The dogs are collar smart and know from whence the stim comes. So, either someone else needs to try the ecollar that has much more experience than myself, or another method needs to be discovered. At this point in time I suggested that Eric NOT use high stim as personally, I only use that for emergencies.

We discussed another method that may work. I think it's in a post on this thread.


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## Bob Scott

+1 for the e-collar in this situation. 
The electric fence will do nothing for a stock aggressive do other then contain it. That can lead to building drive through frustration.
Containment is brought on by the dog only when it gets close to the fence. It teaches the dog to stay away from the fence. It wont keep the dog from obsessing on the horse if he can still see it. He just learns the fence will keep him from the chase.
The e-collar, as Howard said, is used every time the dog even looks towards the horse. The dog will learn to ignore the horse. 
Bring that e-fence trained dog close to a horse in the pasture and see how it reacts. :wink:
Starting with a pup I would go with kadi's methods.


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