# pedigreedatabase forum laugh GSD



## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

This actually comes from an Amlines poster. It is on the thread banana backed and anteater faced  --- I know people are stupid but THIS stupid? PDB is always good for a laugh! 

Maybe I am the stupid one for even getting involved in a thread over there...... 

"IMO I think it is very important to keep strong workinlines and it is trus that if you want them very agile they need a staighter front and less angulations..but *I think also tha it is very important to keep showline to make the more all round GSD for SAR-guide dogs-detection-herding-guard or protection etc.they are more suited because they have less drive and are easy to train*.

For me it is important to breed for temperament-health-good structure and good willing to work. But you have to know what king of work you want your dog to be excellent in and go breed for those caracteristics you want. If you need a herding dog..you don't want to much agressiveness just enough..If you want a dog for detection..you need not just a good nose..but a dog that naturally uses it..etc.."


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## Guest (Apr 7, 2009)

Funny....here's what I heard from someone, years before I had a dog. Even then it didn't sound quite right...

"Yeah, sure, the working-lines are easier to train, cuz they'll go all day and everything. It's just a matter of guiding them along with stuff they want to do anyway.

But the important thing about Schutzhund *[showlines implied]* is that you really need that good grip. Think about the liability with police, for instance if you have a dog which thrashes and mauls. No, you want a good, firm, calm grip. That's the important thing which [showline] schutzhund breedings bring."

Wtf?


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Nancy Jocoy said:


> *I think also tha it is very important to keep showline to make the more all round GSD for SAR-guide dogs-detection-herding-guard or protection etc.they are more suited because they have less drive and are easy to train*.


You set 'em straight, right?


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## todd pavlus (Apr 30, 2008)

:-s :-s That is laughable. The world is full of stupid people. My wife dragged me to a local dog show last week, and I wanted to strangle these people. I had to leave after being there an hour. These show people are crazier than a shit house rat:-o . The only entertaining part was watching these crazed women spitting treats out their mouth trying to get the dog to focus and heel. Oh, and the fruity guys prancing around practicing their walk while their dog drops a hot steamer in the middle of the floor, that was funny too:smile:


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Show line people sure are touchy...especially Am. show line people. It must be hard at the bottom of the ladder.:-o


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## Dan Long (Jan 10, 2008)

I don't know what is funnier, the point of the post or the actual grammar and spelling.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Konnie Hein said:


> You set 'em straight, right?


In regards to SAR
I left the other alone; figure I don't need to mess myself up talking about herding dogs and protection dogs about which I know enough to make a fool of myself.

My response.

July I will make my peace with you but do have to differe with you in terms of SAR candidates.

I have been in K9 Search and Rescue for about 10 years and have consistenly seen the lower drive and more angulated showlines types fail and regularly see the workingline dogs excel in this endeavor. Some of the German Showlines do pretty well, but the activity is dominanted by WL GSD, Labs, BC and other high drive herding dogs.

My own showlines x working lines cross did have more of a showline angulation and met the standard in terms of angles and dimensions quite well but was still too narrow in the chest [which I attribute to his being a cryptorchid who had very small testicles when they were removed at 2] was very awkward and did not have the endurance the WL dog did. His nerve was also poor, but the same can be said of certain dogs from all lines.

Drive, courage, and agility are all paramount for a SAR dog. A low drive dog *may* cut it in trailing but not for airscent or detection work IMO. My current working lines dog has fallen 12 feet into a drainage culvert only to climb out and get back to work. I know my other dog could not have scaled the loose rock / steep angles. The agile dog is needed to climb, jump over downed trees, crawl under logs. Same dog can trot for an entire day. I known mine has done it.

It is very easy to train a dog who will go through fire to get at a ball.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Dan Long said:


> I don't know what is funnier, the point of the post or the actual grammar and spelling.


Well, poster was French Canadian. I have seen far worse by people having English as their first language. I can't say my own writing would always pass an editorial inspection.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

If anyone wants to know why the German Show Lines are in almost the same boat as the American Show Lines one needs look no further than the comments posted on the PDB thread regarding the Irish Seiger Show. The OP was questioning the high placement of a dog that failed his courage test - or SHOULD have failed his courage test (I'm not sure which). In any case, everyone agreed the dog did a horrible job, did not engage. HOWEVER the show line folk jumped all over the OP wondering what his motives were for questioning the "greatness" of this fine dog. They were awe inspiring in their ability to find excuses for the dog, such as the following:

".........Scales of Justice i must ask what you have against this dog? Like why state on this site that{ what are the people from the GSA doing promoting this dog that failed the courage test?????? }Stop talkin crap my friend if you work with dogs you will know that everydog has a bad day and there is a chance 9 times out of 10 they could fail and the whole world promotes a dog Zamp v Thermodos who failed the same way all those years ago and did come back but anybody who went to the sieger show after that new that his owners were also extremely nervous when he did come back the next year and he was also not outstanding so if you have nothing better to do than just slate a dog for failing the biteing go slate every dog that has ever failed. The 2 VA females from Fichtenschlag and the Va 1 Xara vom Agilolfinger to name just a few should we also fail to promote these animals? Crawl back into your hole little man,...." 

9 times out of 10 they could fail???? AHAHHAHHAHA!!!!! BITEWORK??????? I GUESS THEY DON'T NEED NO STINKING BITEWORK!!!! NO ****ING WONDER!!!!!

I forgot we are supposed to add a link when we quote. For those who want to read the whole sordid sorry and sad thread for themselves: http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/bulletins_read/291642.html#291711


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Nancy Jocoy said:


> It is very easy to train a dog who will go through fire to get at a ball.


I know people in SAR (including disaster SAR) who actually look for medium to low drive dogs. I'm sure you've run across them too, Nancy. It's also been mentioned on this discussion forum when I've brought up the characteristics I look for in a disaster SAR dog, so I know it's not uncommon. And I've seen these folks train their medium drive dogs. Talk about training uphill! It takes them 2+ years of training to barely pass the basic certification test. Yep, lower drive for sure = easier to train. :roll: At a minimum, it's a huge waste of time and money! Sure, the dog might fit more easily into their home life (because they're looking for a house pet that will double as a SAR dog), but that's absolutely NOT the point of a SAR dog. This is probably my biggest pet peeve...

I've also found that there's no convincing these folks otherwise. They are delusional.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Konnie Hein said:


> I know people in SAR (including disaster SAR) who actually look for medium to low drive dogs. I'm sure you've run across them too, Nancy. It's also been mentioned on this discussion forum when I've brought up the characteristics I look for in a disaster SAR dog, so I know it's not uncommon. And I've seen these folks train their medium drive dogs. Talk about training uphill! It takes them 2+ years of training to barely pass the basic certification test. Yep, lower drive for sure = easier to train. :roll: At a minimum, it's a huge waste of time and money! Sure, the dog might fit more easily into their home life (because they're looking for a house pet that will double as a SAR dog), but that's absolutely NOT the point of a SAR dog. This is probably my biggest pet peeve...
> 
> I've also found that there's no convincing these folks otherwise. They are delusional.


I have had some pleasant surprises in terms of drive level in some of the dogs. There are some dogs on our team I would not have considered the first time I saw them, but these dogs have good handlers, get the job done, and have made honest to God finds [and isn't that what matters]. 

But having worked with a food dog [who was a good little dog] vs a ball dog - I don't think I want anything less than the ball freak.

I have yet do see a dog get anywhere that did not have a realistic structure and some level of nerve strength.


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Nancy:
Sure, finding people is of primary importance. However, in the big picture, time and money figure in to the equation as well. My TF has no desire to finance a handler for years while they muddle through the training with a med/low drive dog. In my experience, lower drive dogs + the average handler = longer training time to achieve certification. All other things equal, the faster a dog reaches certification, the better. 

Absolutely there's a wide range of dogs who are suitable for SAR. However, there is definitely a lower limit when it comes to drive levels, at least that's my experience. FEMA recently developed an evaluation process for green dogs. It selects for higher drive dogs (with good nerve strength). It's not mandatory yet, but it's a good guideline to ensure that the TFs don't spend taxpayer dollars and waste time (= $) on dogs who take years to certify or may never certify. 

I'm always amazed when I run into a search group that doesn't have a selection test or green dog evaluation. Pretty much anybody can bring Buddy the Lab or GSD out and start training. At least that's the case here in this state. What does that say about the goals of the group?

And, I totally agree with you about structure and nerve. Those things come first for sure, followed by drive (for me).


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

We evaluate the dogs after a handler has gone through an evaluation period, but if the dog does not have obvious major problems give them a chance. 

If it is clear the dog is not going to work out, we do have a sit down talk and everyone comes into it knowing the team is not going to waste resources on an unsuitable dog and that the expectation is the either get another dog or serve the team in some other manner.

Of course we are spending neither taxpayer money nor time. But enough gets to be enough at some point in time.


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Our group has a spring assessment course every year. All suitable breeds incuding mutts are accepted. Course is not on snow. Green dogs between the ages of 6 months-2 yrs of age are evaluated for drive. No previous training needed.

You either:
1) get invited to a winter course with your dog (and given a bunch of info on how to progress until then, people and instructors to work with)

or

2) get told that you fit the handler profile and we would like you to stay involved, but your dog is not up to snuff and you need to get a new one

or

3) get told that neither you nor your dog meet the assessment requirments and it was nice to meet you.


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

GSD showline that sucks........ to SAR entry requirements in only 2 pages of posts. This could be a new record. =D> 
I read that forum and wow the have all the excuses down. :lol: 

My GSD showline did his first Long Bite last night. The decoy is still in ICU, ha,ha, not really but it was most impressive. So I can't go to UK and kick butt because he's a long hair, O'well, they loose. I can't wait to kick some working dog butt though!\\/
Oh, and his butt doesn't drag on the ground either, so he wouldn't score well in that regard either.


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Edward Egan said:


> GSD showline that sucks........ to SAR entry requirements in only 2 pages of posts. This could be a new record. =D>
> I read that forum and wow the have all the excuses down. :lol:
> 
> My GSD showline did his first Long Bite last night. The decoy is still in ICU, ha,ha, not really but it was most impressive. So I can't go to UK and kick butt because he's a long hair, O'well, they loose. I can't wait to kick some working dog butt though!\\/
> Oh, and his butt doesn't drag on the ground either, so he wouldn't score well in that regard either.


I thought Nancy brought it up at least partially because they said that SAR dogs did not need to be high drive dogs so our posts must be at least SOMEWHAT related to the op   I was trying to say I don't care what the dog's pedigree is as long as it can do the work. 

Also unrelated to the op, I have seen a couple patrol dogs out of the RCMP kennel with long hair now! So cute until they are chasing you down and biting you I suppose :mrgreen: :wink:


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Well it is the Amlines we were mainly "bashing" as the OP on that thread was a German Showlines lady going to American shows. But I have had too many Showlines folks tell me a lower drive dog was needed for SAR which is wrong.


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## Sarah Atlas (Dec 15, 2008)

I agree with Konnie. Having been imvolved with Disaster for 9 +years I have always had high drive working line dogs. Yes, they are a pain to live with but urban dogs and i believe detector dogs for that matter are required to work tirelessly and ignore all distractions. One time my older dog, Tango became impalled on rebar, heard him yelp and continued to work. (He was in an area that was not safe for me transverse). Give me a tough Checz dog from boarder patrol lines anytime. I will adjust my living situation for any dog that can do the job. Believe me I already have.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

One of those crazy Czech dogs is they way I went and will go next time around until I have to downsize. When I got him as an adult we had LE who trains detector dogs throw the metal pipes, and do all kinds of tests with toys in odd places, hiding things etc. And nothing phases him at all so I do, personally, think that is important.

But, I am still not sure those crazy drives are always necessary for a trailing dogs. I have just seen some really nice trailing dogs that give a rats ass about a ball or a tug. I think you could put hounds in that class. Once they are on a scent nothing deters them. So I guess that is what I am saying.

The other thing I mull around with is how do you find a dog [or make a dog] slow and methodical for real detail work? For example shallow graves, disarticulated --- certainly some questions I have for our upcoming seminar. 

Some dogs are more naturally detail oriented and methodical and some are wild ass crazy. Sometimes the only thing I can do to really detail an area that has very small scent sources is use a lead and control a tight search pattern. Certainly something we need to work on. I can detail by targeting objects [e.g., a car or a building and they do get the pattern after repetition] but it is hard to detail a large patch of ground that way.


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Edward Egan said:


> GSD showline that sucks........ to SAR entry requirements in only 2 pages of posts. This could be a new record. =D>
> I read that forum and wow the have all the excuses down. :lol:
> 
> My GSD showline did his first Long Bite last night. The decoy is still in ICU, ha,ha, not really but it was most impressive. So I can't go to UK and kick butt because he's a long hair, O'well, they loose. I can't wait to kick some working dog butt though!\\/
> Oh, and his butt doesn't drag on the ground either, so he wouldn't score well in that regard either.


Well, Edward, if you haven't figured out that it's all about me, then you've got a lot to learn... 

My first SAR dog was a West German show line female. I'm not about to repeat that experience, but once I got the hang of it, she was a good working dog. Her structure wasn't horrible. I'll have to dig up some pics.


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Nancy Jocoy said:


> The other thing I mull around with is how do you find a dog [or make a dog] slow and methodical for real detail work? For example shallow graves, disarticulated --- certainly some questions I have for our upcoming seminar.
> .


Let us know what the answers are from the seminar instructors. I'm curious to hear what they say. Who are the instructors again?


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Andy Rebmann, Marcia Koenig, and some folks they are bringing. I think Andy may be getting close to ending the seminar circuit; they are greatly limiting time on these now.

I believe class is limited to either nationally certified teams, folks who had already attended their seminar, or accepted with video of dog and letter on team letterhead. We are hosting and wanted focus on some of the old [like more than 8 or 9 years] stuff we get. I don't think an ad ever went out and there was a waiting list for it.

Anyway, this is mainly a seminar on strategies and scenarios than it is things like alerts, reading your dog, etc.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I doubt I'll ever be able to get a show dog title on my SAR trained, SchHIII, CDX, (UD to come) TT, CGC, and now training in herding, Thunder. 
I'm so ****ing depressed that he doesn't have enough angulation!


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

For Konnie, 

If someone wanted to try out who did not have a dog, will you still test them and let them get a dog later?

We encourage people NOT to go out and get a dog first if they don't have one they want to try because we want to evaluate the dog or puppy they are going to select before they get it if they already have it. It is also good to know if it is really what they expected etc before they get this wild and crazy dog.


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Nancy:
Absolutely. I actually would prefer that people join our team without a dog. The chances of any dog having the correct temperament to do disaster work isn't high, let alone a dog initially purchased as a pet. And sometimes, the less they know about dog training, the better. Sometimes it's easier to start with a blank slate, depending on the person.

I don't make it easy for people to join our state USAR team either (I'm the canine coordinator and my husband is the search team manager). I'm looking for a very specific type of person - people with an incredible amount of dedication, ability to work well within a team, and no ego issues. That's why we only have 4 canine search specialists (me included) after being in existance for 5 years. My goal is to eventually have 6, but I'm in no hurry. I'm looking for quality, not quantity.


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