# At what age does scent change..



## Misty Wegner (May 22, 2015)

OK.. So we all know a hot track is usually the easiest to follow.. As the track ages it can become more difficult until finally there is no scent to follow. Different circumstances can cause scent to break down faster or slower... 

Because finding subjects (let alone good ones) to hide is so difficult, working aged tracks is hard (I would prefer having subject there as scent pool, live find reward, etc). Doing an HRD long or even 3hr long is possible on occasion, but my question is there a point where a say 6hr track laid in the sun at 80°F is similar to say a 12hr aged track? I know there is pronounced way to be sure and the variables can swing things one way or the other. Old the state of decomp of cells/odor come to a point where age doesn't make a difference? 

Hope I'm making sense in my questions...


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## Misty Wegner (May 22, 2015)

Really? No one has an opinion or experienced guesstimate? I've tried looking on the Internet but haven't found anything.. Opinions on what is considered a cold track and how long a hot track stays hot vary too..


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

I have some information on this but none of it is committed to memory. What I do have is in a box and not accessible at this time.


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## Misty Wegner (May 22, 2015)

Well that's not helpful, lol!


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)




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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Misty Wegner said:


> Well that's not helpful, lol!


Nope. I thought it was better than no response at all though. Which sucks. 

This board has 10,000+ members. I think zombies have killed off 83.98% of them. 

2.29% have died of natural causes or have been banned. 

The others forgot their passwords.

Some visit but are like the weirdos that come to a party that stand in the corner staring at everybody and then leave quietly (they might come back with a knife, you never know).

Sometimes the cops show up and break up the party or educate the young people and make us want to grow up and be cops too someday. 

Oh and don't forget those that only sign on to send or receive PMs but never contribute anything worthwhile but to a chosen few. They're usually elitist, ego minded, shit talkers :twisted:

Then you got the people who are here for a specific purpose, whether it's for entertainment or learning/teaching. Look at what Matt just did (I think he stole one of my books). And now you know the rest of the story. See how helpful I can be?


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## Mike Di Rago (Jan 9, 2009)

Misty,
The best resource I have read about this is Glen Johnson's book ''tracking dog theory and methode''.
He gives a breakdown of the factors that affect the ''track picture'' and he explains how he comes to those approximations.
Hope this helps a bit.
I still have my copy if you need more info

Mike


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

There are so many factors - I don't think you can plug into a computer and come up with a calculation - you just train for as many different combinations of variables as possible.

FWIW I don't think a hot trail is always the easiest. Scent is everywhere and easier to loose. Dog is working higher. An older trail that has settled a little is nicer to work.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

I agree older trails don't overwhelm the dog with scent and help with concentration. 
The extract photo's are from the book mentioned, I just didn't have time to do any more, don't have it now sorry, I have 13 one day old pups to contend with.


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## Misty Wegner (May 22, 2015)

Matt - wonderful! Thank you  

Mike - I will check out the old thanks! 

Nancy - I do agree about a settled semi aged track being more straightforward.. But I've seen dogs who can run a hot track, but give it an hour and they are at a loss.. Huh.. My question is hard to answer I know... I'm asking because if there is a way to run a track at 3 or 6hrs that resembles a 12hr + track, awesome! My pup who runs on hot to 2hr old tracks becomes very methodical and a steady jog at 12hr old tracks... Haven't run anything older yet.. 

Nicole - you had me cracking up! I appreciate the response be it helpful or not  the humor made my day )


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## Misty Wegner (May 22, 2015)

Have fun with the pups Matt!


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

It's not fun at the moment, havn't slept in 36 hours.
dogs which run well on hot tracks but not older ones have been started on hot tracks IMO, I start my dogs on aged tracks even puppies, they are perfectly capable, it's us who have useless noses.

By the way, I am no expert on anything about dogs, least of all SAR


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## Misty Wegner (May 22, 2015)

I started my girl on hot tracks... I think most do, be it a runaway or not. Mine was a person my pup liked, but it was a semi blind track about 200ft with 2 turns. Both pups took to it like it was a job they've had for years; Areli ran it.. I started doing slightly aged trails (like 15min) then jumped to a 6hr aged, then a 12hr aged, lol.. I knew she knew her job.. She hunkered down and worked like it was nothing, albeit more slowly, Yay.. 

The dogs I've seen unable to work an aged track have been FST trained.. Not that I think FST trained dogs can't work an aged track, I know they can. Just the ones I've seen unable to have been trained that way.


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## mel boschwitz (Apr 23, 2010)

There's just so many variables that change the scent picture. Rural, urban, weather, vehicle contamination etc that hot tracks vary I think. In general I feel like under an hour is "hot". 

If I need to artificially age a trail, i will have someone lay it on a 4 wheeler, bike, etc. Anything that moves faster and spreads scent farther so that less is hitting the ground in a steady manner. I find my dogs work those trails slower, like they are working an older trail. An hour aged feels more like a few hours. I play with some car trails too.


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Talk to a cop and a hot track could be 10 minutes. Push the age to 30 minutes could be pushing it for a patrol dog and by the time its 60 minutes old most patrol cops won't touch it. For a SAR person, a hot track could be 12-24 hours or even up to 3 days. Their cold track may not start for a week or more. 

What I have found is that the faster you start mixing up the ages of the trails 30 minutes now, 2 days there, 1 hour here the more flexible the dog nose is. If you only work trails of a certain age range then that's all the dog knows to work. IF you ever see a list of the chemicals and lipids that drip off a human and then look at the forms they change and degrade to then if the dog has never smelt it before, then they treat it as a new smell. You have to expose them to the full range of trail age much like you expose the dog to the full range of human decomp (from fresh dead to bare bones)


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## Misty Wegner (May 22, 2015)

I agree! Variance in training makes for a solid dog and handler who can read their dog... Still, I'm curious as to how much change is actually occurring within the time periods. A cold wet environment is going to allow for a more successful long term track then one in a hot dry climate... So if a track is laid in the sun in 85f heat and one is laid in the shade in 60f heat, would the sunny track show 'aging' by a third faster of the shady track? 

Conditions change constantly and scent is blown and lands distances away from the actual track. Components of the track in the sun could hypothetically show aging due to being heated and dry that portions of the track in shade and/or near moisture may not...


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Misty Wegner said:


> A cold wet environment is going to allow for a more successful long term track then one in a hot dry climate... So if a track is laid in the sun in 85f heat and one is laid in the shade in 60f heat, would the sunny track show 'aging' by a third faster of the shady track?


A word of caution. Do not fall into the trap of making assumptions. We *assume* a cold, wet environment trail lasts longer. We *assume* a hot, dry environment wipes it out faster. Don't assume what the dog can or cannot do until you actually drop the dog on the track. Let the dog tell you what it can and cannot do. I've seen lots of experienced dogs get flummoxed by a trail that should have been a cakewalk. Some of my strongest trails have been under hot and/or dry conditions and a few of my worst ones in wet. I've had one dog sail through a track while another acted like it was lost. Same track, both experienced dogs but one got it and the other didn't.

We really don't know how long scent lasts. It's pretty durable stuff.


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## Misty Wegner (May 22, 2015)

You are right, Sarah. Generalizing for convenience sake while typing off my phone. Each and every track each and every time can have different results. I think what makes scent so interesting is that we don't know or understand the components that the dogs pick up or how long they last.. Sure, we have certain ideas of sebum, rafts, personal odors (deodorant etc.. And I am over simplifying) etc, but how the dog interprets them, why some dogs seem to be able to hone in and find scent when another cannot - aged or not.. Interesting stuff, imho. 

My generalization is because I am hoping to find a way to age a track faster without the actual aging, lol... The faster laid track was suggested, laying it in the sun I would (assume) likely to age the breakdown of cells faster, etc... Trying to get a subject to lay my track and be available 12-24hrs later is hard... So I'm trying to 'cheat' if possible... Just so I can do more longer aged tracks... Lol.. I'm bad..


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Misty Wegner said:


> Trying to get a subject to lay my track and be available 12-24hrs later is hard... So I'm trying to 'cheat' if possible... Just so I can do more longer aged tracks... Lol.. I'm bad..


Forget about reinserting the subject. If your goal is to see if the dog can work an aged trail you do not need a subject at the end to prove that. If you go to my Gus thread there is a aged track I videoed where there was no subject at the end. Instead what I was documenting was 1) the dog working a trail of that age, 2) getting the experience, and 3) see how close it matched the subject's path. I don't need a subject at the end to show those things.

Have the subject lay your trail and then tell them to not come back. You can let that trail age for hours, days, weeks, and then go run at your convenience


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Nicole Stark said:


> Nope. I thought it was better than no response at all though. Which sucks.
> 
> This board has 10,000+ members. I think zombies have killed off 83.98% of them.
> 
> ...




I'm here for the Mod salary...............:-k..................:-k..............:-o..........*Wait!...... :-o DAMN! *

8-[ Never mind!  ](*,)  ](*,)  ](*,)  ](*,)  ](*,)


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## Misty Wegner (May 22, 2015)

Bwaaahaaahaa


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