# Barking at the decoy



## Pedro Carneiro

Greetings mates,

My malinois is 10 months and is struggling with barking at the decoy during bitework. We wanted to start decoy finding and bark on discovery and his inability to bark is making it difficult. He shows excellent bitework but with all his prey drive and wanting desperately to bite he does not become vocal. They say it is something between the decoy and the dog and I cant do much about it. During tug he does not bark either and normally he only signals at home territorially. Today we worked on this by waiting for him to make signals and then rewarding with throwing the object but still no real bark, even though he was next to his litter mates doing everything appropriately (although not being the first day of their training regarding that aspect). After 15-20 minutes of trying my mentor advised me to chain the dog in the school to see if he gets frustrated enough to bark on his own and then do some bitework but I am not fond of the idea. Give me thoughts and opinions please!


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## rick smith

interesting observation .....

re: "My malinois is 10 months"
--keep that in mind

"and is struggling with barking at the decoy during bitework."
-- not descriptive enuff. you have not described the dog's basic temperament or the type of bite work you are doing .... for mondio like you avatar reads, or for something else ?

"We wanted to start decoy finding and bark on discovery and his inability to bark is making it difficult."
-- ditto ... see above

"He shows excellent bitework but with all his prey drive and wanting desperately to bite he does not become vocal."
-- not necessarily a problem for a 10 month old pup. maybe he has a LOT of confidence and is not easily frustrated or gets what he wants without having to work for it much  ... what reinforcement rate are you using ?

"They say it is something between the decoy and the dog and I cant do much about it."
-- but it's still YOUR problem, not the decoy or the dog 

"During tug he does not bark either"
-- probably your problem too ... i've known LOTS of dogs that don't bark "during tug" .... see above about the Xlnt bitework comment

"and normally he only signals at home territorially."
-- what is "signaling" ? body language or barking ? fear barking ? guard barking ? come and play with me barking ? ... what kind of "territory" does he own ? are you doing bite work there too ?

"Today we worked on this by waiting for him to make signals and then rewarding with throwing the object but still no real bark, even though he was next to his litter mates doing everything appropriately (although not being the first day of their training regarding that aspect)."
-- i can't visualize what you are saying here

"After 15-20 minutes of trying my mentor advised me to chain the dog in the school to see if he gets frustrated enough to bark on his own"
-- typical solution i have seen people do .. may work but often does not work. why leave the dog alone and try to get it to learn something by itself ? isn't that what he has an owner for ?

better to see it in action. we have had these discussions b4 ... did U read them ?
- i could ask you Q's like can u make the dog bark at home when it is with you, etc ... but that might not help either

i don't see this as a big problem like you and your mentor do. but i could see the possibility of screwing the dog up by forcing it to bark for the wrong reasons tho. plenty of other things you can work on with a ten month old pup

good luck even this probably doesn't help much


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## David Baker

you were right when you said that there is nothing that you can do about it. It is the decoy that molds him and has the choice to reward or not. Your decoy should only advance or even move once the dog has barked. The movement is the reward. The dog should be making your move with his vocalization. Decoy is frozen until he makes a noise, dog barks or even wines, then the decoy advances or moves, wait until he does it again, decoy advances, etc.. Had the same problem with mine until about a month or so ago. A good decoy can fix it. Also keep in mind, like Rick said, your dog is still young. He should have it by now but can still be a late bloomer. The bark always comes eventually with age. Only thing you can do is help speed up the process with a good decoy.


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## Joby Becker

I agree with both posts here, except that I have never owned a dog that I could not get barking myself.

If the prey is too strong, and the confidence or whatever, or lack of frustration is too high, distance usually helps this. I would tie dog out or kennel him, he would be barking that day, at least barking...maybe not close to the decoy, but barking for sure, if that was the issue, that the prey was super high.

And Rick was right, to vague, not enough info to get a mental picture...
shoot a video of what you guys are doing, and share it.


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## Brian Smith

I had the same problem when I began training with my 16 month old GSD. I began at home when feeding him, I would bring the food in and show it to him but he did not get it until he began barking. It took a minute or two before he gave a bark and I immediately gave him the food and praised him with the command I intended to use. I did this for a very short time and then brought it out to the training field. I put him in a harness and back tie and had the decoy enter the field. As others described, the decoy remained still until the dog barked. Initially he was rewarded with a bite for any noise. As it progressed the decoy withheld the bite for longer and longer periods before rewarding. It really didn't take too long for the dog to catch on. Building frustration until he can't contain himself is the object. You may need the decoy very close (but out of bite range) to begin with. Remember, the dog must learn that his alert causes the decoys movement. If the decoy moves to cause the alert then your working against yourself. 
While I'm not sure you need to begin at home as I did, I had a dog that felt no need to bark at the decoy and would tire himself out long before he thought about barking. Withholding his food bowl was instantly frustrating. Of course it probably helps that he was half starved when I got him.
Once more thing, when on the back tie, don't forget to give him your alert command and then wait.


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## Thomas Barriano

You can try the old Dildei fence method. Decoy is behind a 4 ft fence. Dog on harness and long line. Heavy Agitation, decoy hits the fence with the stick etc. The handler lets the dog drag him to the fence, decoy stays low so the dog can't go over the fence and then waits for the dog to get frustrated and bark. As soon as the dog gives the slightest bark. The decoy pops the sleeve over the fence for the dog to bite.


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## David Baker

Thomas Barriano said:


> You can try the old Dildei fence method. Decoy is behind a 4 ft fence. Dog on harness and long line. Heavy Agitation, decoy hits the fence with the stick etc. The handler lets the dog drag him to the fence, decoy stays low so the dog can't go over the fence and then waits for the dog to get frustrated and bark. As soon as the dog gives the slightest bark. The decoy pops the sleeve over the fence for the dog to bite.


this works as well. We've done it with a few dogs.


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## lannie dulin

I taught the bark and hold myself away from the decoy as an obedience exercise. I repeated "bark" while acting like a clown and holding a piece of food out. The dog offered the behaviors he knew (sitting, downing, spinning into heel). Eventually he got frustrated let out a little whimper. I marked it "yes" and gave the food. After repeating a few times I held out for a bark and got it. Then over time I held out for continuous barking. Then I added a "sit" to the command so the dog will sit while barking. Once he got that I transferred it on to the decoy. The decoy commanded "sit & bark" and gave the bite (this happened from the heel position). Lastly, I would command "revere" releasing the dog to the decoy from a heel position. Once there the decoy would command "sit & bark". Eventually, the dog would bark and hold when I command "revere" and the decoy would simply reward the behavior (this is the step we're currently working on).


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## David Baker

Lannie

I dont think he's trying to do a bark and hold. I think he wants his dog barking during agitation.


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## lannie dulin

David Baker said:


> Lannie
> 
> I dont think he's trying to do a bark and hold. I think he wants his dog barking during agitation.


I'd still say teach this behavior. It teaches the dog one more behavior to offer when it wants something. My female was never very vocal, but once she learned bark and hold she now is more vocal when working. 

I think in a dog that is not naturally vocal it teaches the dog it's okay to be be vocal and that in fact it will be rewarded.


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## Joby Becker

> We wanted to start decoy finding and bark on discovery


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## David Baker

guess i was wrong. Its happened once before. :twisted:


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## Peter Cho

lannie dulin said:


> I taught the bark and hold myself away from the decoy as an obedience exercise. I repeated "bark" while acting like a clown and holding a piece of food out. The dog offered the behaviors he knew (sitting, downing, spinning into heel). Eventually he got frustrated let out a little whimper. I marked it "yes" and gave the food. After repeating a few times I held out for a bark and got it. Then over time I held out for continuous barking. Then I added a "sit" to the command so the dog will sit while barking. Once he got that I transferred it on to the decoy. The decoy commanded "sit & bark" and gave the bite (this happened from the heel position). Lastly, I would command "revere" releasing the dog to the decoy from a heel position. Once there the decoy would command "sit & bark". Eventually, the dog would bark and hold when I command "revere" and the decoy would simply reward the behavior (this is the step we're currently working on).


I agree you should teach a young pup to bark at all things he wants, not whine. Teach it away from the bark and hold situation. Dogs are situational learners. So teach it to bark for food, on command. Teach it that while playing tug (by the way, playing IS THE MOST IMPORTANT FUNDAMENTAL and difficult part of training a dog) that the STRONG bark makes the game begin or creates reward opporunities. crappy bark stops the game. negative punishment. operant conditioning. Dog controls game at all time. He initates all action.

If you do prey stuff in front of the helper and the decoy "commands" the dog, you get begging behaviour you see in tons of dogs, with high pitched voice and front paws balanced in the air. ugggg! This is highly undesirable. In my mind, a helper should never be a dogs' friend. 

By the time you get to the helper, the dog should know that the helper is no buddy and that there is a risk. That risk creates conflict whcih creates a more powerful bark. However, to engage the decoy, he must bark to reward. After bite, conflict stops. prelude to the smooth OUT transition. As soon as it Outs, then Conflict should skyrocket because helper is again dangerous, which makes dog SPIT the sleeve out to engage helper, which is in of it self a reward. No out issues.

I guess the bottom line is, you need a training helper to manage the barking. It is all sorta inter connected, beginning with play.


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## Matt Vandart

Is this bark and hold for sport?


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## rick smith

i usually take a different approach when Q's are posted about a problem someone is having ...

i guess it might help when a lot of people outline their training philosophy and post what they do when they train and what they think is important, etc. .... but i feel it might be better to get the OP's in these threads to give more details of SPECIFICALLY what THEY are doing, or not doing, and let them discover how to fix it themselves rather than try and get them to copy someone else's training philosophy, which imo is pretty hard to do after only reading a few of their posts

so far the problem has not been explained very well imo and chances are with a little more squeezing the solution might become obvious to the OP, since making a dog bark is rarely an extremely diff problem to overcome

my guess it's simply a typical case of going too fast too soon with a young dog, and one of the most common problems we are all guilty of at one time or another
- and often, when people start to realize that, they also realize they never had a well thought out training plan to begin with and instead were just "working their dog" with or without someone else mostly telling them what to do ](*,)
- so even if a solution to the barking is found by copying a suggestion that worked for someone else, will the overall plan change ? i think not, in many cases
- i have always found moving slower and building a better foundation results in more success over the long haul

just my .02


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## Matt Vandart

Dude, I have been getting around to making and writing down a training plan for years and years, I even learned that SMAF shiz to make it more efficient, ROFL.
I really don't help myself lol.
If it's for sport I don't see why the OP doesn't just capture it and put it on cue.
On the post above about b&h being trained in prey, I fell there is nothing wrong with doing this as a foundation.


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## lannie dulin

Matt Vandart said:


> Dude, I have been getting around to making and writing down a training plan for years and years, I even learned that SMAF shiz to make it more efficient, ROFL.
> I really don't help myself lol.
> If it's for sport I don't see why the OP doesn't just capture it and put it on cue.
> On the post above about b&h being trained in prey, I fell there is nothing wrong with doing this as a foundation.


My point exactly, mark the behavior and then transfer.


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## lannie dulin

rick smith said:


> i usually take a different approach when Q's are posted about a problem someone is having ...
> 
> i guess it might help when a lot of people outline their training philosophy and post what they do when they train and what they think is important, etc. .... but i feel it might be better to get the OP's in these threads to give more details of SPECIFICALLY what THEY are doing, or not doing, and let them discover how to fix it themselves rather than try and get them to copy someone else's training philosophy, which imo is pretty hard to do after only reading a few of their posts
> 
> so far the problem has not been explained very well imo and chances are with a little more squeezing the solution might become obvious to the OP, since making a dog bark is rarely an extremely diff problem to overcome
> 
> my guess it's simply a typical case of going too fast too soon with a young dog, and one of the most common problems we are all guilty of at one time or another
> - and often, when people start to realize that, they also realize they never had a well thought out training plan to begin with and instead were just "working their dog" with or without someone else mostly telling them what to do ](*,)
> - so even if a solution to the barking is found by copying a suggestion that worked for someone else, will the overall plan change ? i think not, in many cases
> - i have always found moving slower and building a better foundation results in more success over the long haul
> 
> just my .02


For that matter why even bother with a forum? Just auto reply to all threads "your question is better answered at the nearest ___________ (fill in dog sport that applies) club by a professional trainer that is able to lay hands on your dog". My point being if one is relying solely on a forum, that is silly. They should use it as a means of exploring and getting new ideas. I think most people with common sense and have used the internet for more than 5 minutes know that. Personally, it's not uncommon for me to get an idea from a forum, facebook group, or dvd and then show up with it to training and discuss it with my trainer. Sometimes he tells me "No, don't do that it will f*** your dog up" and sometimes he says "okay, let's try it". Sometimes the ideas pan out, and sometimes they don't.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Peter Cho said:


> By the time you get to the helper, the dog should know that the helper is no buddy and that there is a risk. *[How does he know the helper isn't his buddy and that there is a risk?]*
> 
> That risk creates conflict whcih creates a more powerful bark. However, to engage the decoy, he must bark to reward. After bite, conflict stops. prelude to the smooth OUT transition. As soon as it Outs, then Conflict should skyrocket because helper is again dangerous *What makes the helper dangerous in the dog's mind?]*, which makes dog SPIT the sleeve out to engage helper, which is in of it self a reward. No out issues.
> 
> I guess the bottom line is, you need a training helper to manage the barking. It is all sorta inter connected, beginning with play.


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## Christopher Smith

Matt Vandart said:


> On the post above about b&h being trained in prey, I fell there is nothing wrong with doing this as a foundation.


Because, for the reasons Peter pointed out above, it puts the dog in the wrong mindset for protection. 



Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## Terrasita Cuffie

lannie dulin said:


> My point exactly, mark the behavior and then transfer.


They make it harder because they don't want the prey bark. They want the dog to be "serious" about something that they first learned wasn't serious, often with the same person. Except Peter's group has a different approach. What complicates it and causes most of the issues is that a serious dog if he were in serious mode, wouldn't be doing all that yapping--completely unnatural so you are asking for to things that are mutually exclusive for the serious dog--barking and serious [aggression mode]. Talk about conflict, confusion and training against instinct--all fr the look and the points.


T


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## Christopher Smith

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> They make it harder because they don't want the prey bark. They want the dog to be "serious" about something that they first learned wasn't serious, often with the same person. Except Peter's group has a different approach. What complicates it and causes most of the issues is that a serious dog if he were in serious mode, wouldn't be doing all that yapping--completely unnatural so you are asking for to things that are mutually exclusive for the serious dog--barking and serious [aggression mode]. Talk about conflict, confusion and training against instinct--all fr the look and the points.


Talk about a lot of yapping...:roll:


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Christopher Smith said:


> Talk about a lot of yapping...:roll:



Ahhhh, the usual contribution.

T


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## Pedro Carneiro

Ok guys I am sorry for not being explicit enough and I promise to make clearer posts next time. 
First of, I appreciate all the feedback and I can relate with some answers you have put in here.
I will now try to cover gaps that you felt needed explaining.
-My dog is very confident, highly socialized, calmer than his litter mates and has not shown very dominant mindset towards the owners although alert of strangers when I demand. He has been worked since he was a puppy with a very specific mindset and my mentor has molded thousands of dogs (literally), this being one of his own litters. He has had a great score even this year in the world cup with great abilities as a decoy.
- His territorial behavior is an alert and vigilant posture followed up by some signal barking that I encourage when people are outside our fence or at night where he gets even more alert. It is not realted to any fear based issues at all. He has not proven to be a fearful dog but rather a confident calmer personality with huge prey.
- I am training specifically for mondioring. There is a specific exercise that consists of finding a hiding subject and barking on arrival without biting.
- The decoy tried hiding, freezing, moving rapidly to follow the dogs mind. He grunted but not barked but it was the first time that we asked specifically for that behavior. we focused on bite and grip development before so he associated decoy with biting and not barking. That is why we wanted to adress this issue. The dog was in frustration with his a large leather collar and tense leash.
-Our goal was to reward with bite and play once the dog barked (he would throw the biting pillow for me to play with the dog) once he had a strong bark. We first rewarded any slight signals.
-Regarding my training physolophy is mostly 100% positive. I have avoided any corrections to build his confidence and trust while building a strong relationship. He has not showed any behaviors that demanded a correction.

NOW, since yesterday I have been thinking hard on what situations my dog barked at and I challenged myself to train a bark on command that i wish to TRANSFER to other situations, eventually during bitework (in order to him have a clue on what to do, be possible to get him to bark, reward him accordingly and escalate into a strong desired bark). 
-I have put myself behind a fence with the dog on the other side. He barked strong I threw the tug and went playing to his side. My goal was to associate barking with biting (and I am aware it is play and not guard). 
- Today I was able to do the exercise without a fence. 
- I hope that my work will be able to give the dog a mindset of what to do. I felt he was clueless as to why he was not getting to bite and he just did not know what to do and I am trying to solve that issue.

I am aware that my post was severely lacking in context and I hope I was able to give you a clearer picture now. If any questions remain unanswered post them under and I will answer sap.


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## maggie fraser

Does he like his toy? Have you taught him to speak?


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## Pedro Carneiro

Yes that is exactly what I have been doing this week  He adores his toy.


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## maggie fraser

Pedro Carneiro said:


> Yes that is exactly what I have been doing this week  He adores his toy.


Is he speaking for his toy?


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## Pedro Carneiro

When commanded, yes.


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## maggie fraser

Pedro Carneiro said:


> When commanded, yes.


You're getting there then!


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## Pedro Carneiro

Thanks! I love words of encouragement


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Pedro Carneiro said:


> Thanks! I love words of encouragement


Ditch the command, let him offer the bark, mark,reward. Bark separate. Object find separate. Marry the two. Don't see why you have to link bite work to it at all--for an alert/find indication.

T


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## Pedro Carneiro

That is a good point. Interesting  thanks for the help! I needed to use the command because it was very hard to see him offer the bark. Maybe it is too soon for this dog but his brothers offer barking plenty. I have a different training philosophy than their owners who are more *old-school*. They have managed to raise more excited, anxious dogs and that is where their barking is coming from imo. Not real guarding instincts, not yet. My dog is trained positively with frequent rewards and I have focused much of his training time on his basic and advanced obedience. I think all the work that I have done made him not prow to bark since he just does not need to. I was careful to raise strong foundations and develop bonding. He was extensively socialized, able to work very well under distractions and is at ease with everything  That is a big bonus for him!


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Pedro Carneiro said:


> That is a good point. Interesting  thanks for the help! I needed to use the command because it was very hard to see him offer the bark. Maybe it is too soon for this dog but his brothers offer barking plenty. I have a different training philosophy than their owners who are more *old-school*. They have managed to raise more excited, anxious dogs and that is where their barking is coming from imo. Not real guarding instincts, not yet. My dog is trained positively with frequent rewards and I have focused much of his training time on his basic and advanced obedience. I think all the work that I have done made him not prow to bark since he just does not need to. I was careful to raise strong foundations and develop bonding. He was extensively socialized, able to work very well under distractions and is at ease with everything  That is a big bonus for him!



Sounds like you have done some nice work with him. Free shaping does take patience. Sometimes I make sure I have a chair. You can get barking alone by confusion over what's being shaped or "damnit I've done it enough so give me the frickin food." If I keep upping the criteria with my bouv, that'll get a kick ass bark and hold. She is pissed. But she has a angry frustration button, genetically. 

T


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## lannie dulin

Pedro Carneiro said:


> - I am training specifically for mondioring. There is a specific exercise that consists of finding a hiding subject and barking on arrival without biting.


Then teach it the way I described. This is perfect for sport purposes and is very close to ME's method.


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## Thomas Barriano

Pedro,

Your dog is a 10 month old Malinois and are you still training for Mondio? You don't need a search and bark until MR II. There are a LOT of other things you could be teaching instead of worrying about him barking. Don't sweat the small stuff


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Thomas Barriano said:


> Pedro,
> 
> Your dog is a 10 month old Malinois and are you still training for Mondio? You don't need a search and bark until MR II. There are a LOT of other things you could be teaching instead of worrying about him barking. Don't sweat the small stuff


Maybe he's into laying the foundation for the MR III dog.

T


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Maybe he's into laying the foundation for an MR III dog. Alice's puppy has a stand on the box and bark, if I'm remembering correctly and he isn't even 6 months old. 

T


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## rick smith

re "I needed to use the command because it was very hard to see him offer the bark. Maybe it is too soon for this dog but his brothers offer barking plenty. I have a different training philosophy than their owners who are more *old-school*. They have managed to raise more excited, anxious dogs and that is where their barking is coming from imo. Not real guarding instincts, not yet. My dog is trained positively with frequent rewards and I have focused much of his training time on his basic and advanced obedience. I think all the work that I have done made him not prow to bark since he just does not need to. I was careful to raise strong foundations and develop bonding. He was extensively socialized, able to work very well under distractions and is at ease with everything That is a big bonus for him!"

very interesting additional details ....


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## Thomas Barriano

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Maybe he's into laying the foundation for the MR III dog.
> 
> T


Maybe he's not?
I was giving advise to one person about one dog.
Pedro isn't Alice and Alice isn't training for Mondio.


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## rick smith

i'd still like to hear more about his signaling at home territorially and how that figures in with his extensive socialization, bonding and other foundation work


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## Paul R. Konschak

David Baker said:


> you were right when you said that there is nothing that you can do about it. It is the decoy that molds him and has the choice to reward or not. Your decoy should only advance or even move once the dog has barked. The movement is the reward. The dog should be making your move with his vocalization. Decoy is frozen until he makes a noise, dog barks or even wines, then the decoy advances or moves, wait until he does it again, decoy advances, etc.. Had the same problem with mine until about a month or so ago. A good decoy can fix it. Also keep in mind, like Rick said, your dog is still young. He should have it by now but can still be a late bloomer. The bark always comes eventually with age. Only thing you can do is help speed up the process with a good decoy.


I do not understand why the decoy would advance when the dog barks. I thought the goal of this was to make the dog feel dominant. The dog's barking should make the decoy move away.


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## Pedro Carneiro

Ok. First to answer Rick I have encouraged him to signal for strangers in the premises. He has shown that behavior and I have rewarded it with praise and incentive. He trains everywhere and among anyone and has great handler focus. People enter our home and when I say everything is fine, he presents himself with confidence and is friendly. He is wary at home, not aggressive. 
Regarding the decoy he is retreating to incentive bark and frustrate and advancing to reward with bite work.


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## rick smith

the more i read the more it seems like you have a nearly perfect dog that would be the envy of many dog owners.
- i was assuming signaling meant barking but i guess i was wrong and you were referring to body language and posturing

i believe you also mentioned you were training with the best mondio team in your country. that would seem like you have an excellent resource to work with close at hand

fwiw, i have seen a few dogs personally that were not very vocal (mwd's) but that didn't prevent them from being great dogs that the other handlers were jealous of


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## Pedro Carneiro

Thanks Rick! I am training with the best but from time to time I doubt myself lol . Likewise I like to always have a critical non biased view on things and that is why I am here!


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## Thomas Barriano

Paul R. Konschak said:


> I do not understand why the decoy would advance when the dog barks. I thought the goal of this was to make the dog feel dominant. The dog's barking should make the decoy move away.


It depends, some like to teach the dog that their barking makes the man go away. Others like to teach that the barking brings the reward bite closer. I kind of like to start with the going away but move to the barking bringing the reward bite ASAP


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## Matt Vandart

Christopher Smith said:


> Because, for the reasons Peter pointed out above, it puts the dog in the wrong mindset for protection.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Er..........change his mindset later by applying pressure?


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## Christopher Smith

Matt Vandart said:


> Er..........change his mindset later by applying pressure?


So you mean train the dog wrong and then make stress on the dog to correct your mistake? Yeah...that's not my style. 

The problem with what you are saying is that dogs revert to their foundation when they run into problems. And if your dogs foundation in protection is that it's a fun game of obedience for tug-o-war , what happens when he has a problem in protection? I want my dogs foundation for the protection to be aggression so when he has problems he believes that his aggression will be the solution, not making obedience. 

I also think that I see a pattern here. It seems advocates of obedience barking have never trained and titled a dog.


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## Paul R. Konschak

Peter Cho said:


> By the time you get to the helper, the dog should know that the helper is no buddy and that there is a risk. That risk creates conflict whcih creates a more powerful bark. However, to engage the decoy, he must bark to reward. After bite, conflict stops. prelude to the smooth OUT transition. As soon as it Outs, then Conflict should skyrocket because helper is again dangerous, which makes dog SPIT the sleeve out to engage helper, which is in of it self a reward. No out issues.


How would you explain a dog that has been trained in this way not outing?


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Or maybe they believe "sport protection" is bark, bite obedience exercises anyway. I keep wondering if you all have aggression meter gauges or something. 

T


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## Christopher Smith

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Or maybe they believe "sport protection" is bark, bite obedience exercises anyway. I keep wondering if you all have aggression meter gauges or something.
> 
> T


Yes lots of people that don't have much experience think that. No problem. Funny thing about IPO, you can't take the keyboard on the trial field and the truth is exposed.

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## Joby Becker

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> They make it harder because they don't want the prey bark. They want the dog to be "serious" about something that they first learned wasn't serious, often with the same person. Except Peter's group has a different approach. What complicates it and causes most of the issues is that a serious dog if he were in serious mode, wouldn't be doing all that yapping--completely unnatural so you are asking for to things that are mutually exclusive for the serious dog--barking and serious [aggression mode]. Talk about conflict, confusion and training against instinct--all fr the look and the points.
> T


a serious dog in serious mode will yap like that if they are trained to contain themselves and refrain from biting under certain circumstances when coupled with yapping training.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Joby Becker said:


> a serious dog in serious mode will yap like that if they are trained to contain themselves and refrain from biting under certain circumstances when coupled with yapping training.


yep, frustration yapping.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Christopher Smith said:


> Yes lots of people that don't have much experience think that. No problem. Funny thing about IPO, you can't take the keyboard on the trial field and the truth is exposed.
> 
> Maybe its that non-sport, not trained to yap, experience. But this is the usual fall back position when this issue is raised. What truth, pray tell is exposed on the IPO trial field? Anything other than training? ag·gres·sion [uh-gresh-uhn] Show IPA
> noun
> 1.
> the action of a state in violating by force the rights of another state, particularly its territorial rights; an unprovoked offensive, attack, invasion, or the like: The army is prepared to stop any foreign aggression.
> 2.
> any offensive action, attack, or procedure; an inroad or encroachment: an aggression upon one's rights.
> 3.
> the practice of making assaults or attacks; offensive action in general.
> 4.
> Psychiatry. overt or suppressed hostility, either innate or resulting from continued frustration and directed outward or against oneself.
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## Christopher Smith

You have mastered the easy part of the sport...big talk. But now comes the hard part. The part that you will never do. The part that takes sweat, hard work and talent. Haul your ass away from the keyboard and find out what the truth is. Is that so hard for you to do? You can yapp-yapp, yelp and screech, but until you walk the centerline with that dog at your side all of your theories are farts in the wind. Once you get out there and pass all three phases you will know the truth. 




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## Terrasita Cuffie

Christopher Smith said:


> You have mastered the easy part of the sport...big talk. But now comes the hard part. The part that you will never do. The part that takes sweat, hard work and talent. Haul your ass away from the keyboard and find out what the truth is. Is that so hard for you to do? You can yapp-yapp, yelp and screech, but until you walk the centerline with that dog at your side all of your theories are farts in the wind. Once you get out there and pass all three phases you will know the truth.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App



Typical bullshit answer. Frustration or innate? Behind the keyboard, how can we tell? When I get there the truth I'll know is that I managed to train certain overt responses in the dog that the the rules prescribe--like continuous barking. This isn't about the blood and sweat that goes along with training any dog for any sport or the denigration of IPO. You have your little yaps about obedience barking but when asked how you ascertain its anything but obedience, you claim the high and mighty throne of experience and then come the little snarls. Walking your so called center line has nothing to do with the question of proving a dog's state of mind when he is barking at a decoy--knowing nothing else about him.

T


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## Matt Vandart

Um, isn't sport like IPO a temperament test for breeding working dogs?
If so how come every LE handler and MWD Handler I have met/know trains in Prey/play first then puts pressure on later?
Surely the test is to breed dogs that these people will want to train?
Wouldn't they be looking for a dog that could be trained to do a proper B&H the way they do it, not a dog that needs to be pressured from day one, or not tested out the way they train it.
What if that dog wouldn't have done the exercise if you had tried prey/play first? 
How will you know?
How will you know the dog isn't just nuts?
Genuine questions by the way, I'm interested. 

It would seem that your logic is flawed by the fact that when they/I have pressure put on them, i.e they face a problem, they don't revert to their foundation but rather get defensive (show aggression whatever that actually means) and start barking for real (if the decoy is any use of course)
Respect to yourself for you achievements in sport, seriously, but training really isn't a one way only thing I find there are, as they say many ways to skin a cat, or get a dog to bark


----------



## Gillian Schuler

Matt Vandart said:


> Um, isn't sport like IPO a temperament test for breeding working dogs?
> If so how come every LE handler and MWD Handler I have met/know trains in Prey/play first then puts pressure on later?
> Surely the test is to breed dogs that these people will want to train?
> Wouldn't they be looking for a dog that could be trained to do a proper B&H the way they do it, not a dog that needs to be pressured from day one, or not tested out the way they train it.
> What if that dog wouldn't have done the exercise if you had tried prey/play first?
> How will you know?
> How will you know the dog isn't just nuts?
> Genuine questions by the way, I'm interested.
> 
> It would seem that your logic is flawed by the fact that when they/I have pressure put on them, i.e they face a problem, they don't revert to their foundation but rather get defensive (show aggression whatever that actually means) and start barking for real (if the decoy is any use of course)
> Respect to yourself for you achievements in sport, seriously, but training really isn't a one way only thing I find there are, as they say many ways to skin a cat, or get a dog to bark


To answer your first question:

IPO in my mind is no temperament test for breeding dogs. Most European breeders (I hope) don't see it as this and breed the typeof dog that wouldn't gain many points today.

One indication that the dog is serious could be that he sits in front of the decoy, not on the sleeve side.

Your comment on whether the decoy is any use is legitimate.

IPO is often won by the neatest obedience routine. 

The only other thing that could sway this would be the tracking. Some trainers train for the worst conditions. They drop (not place) the articles, they track at high altitudes, low altitudes, bad weather, etc. In fact they train their dogs to track, not just follow footsteps. They give them the worst possible tracking conditions they can find and definately let them search without any help. I read that someone puts food at the corners!!


----------



## Joby Becker

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> yep, frustration yapping.


yes frustration yapping is part of the mix for sure, frustration is in the mix of things that are sources of aggression that the dog uses, and that are used in training.


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## Matt Vandart

Thank you Gillian


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## Christopher Smith

Matt Vandart said:


> Um, isn't sport like IPO a temperament test for breeding working dogs?
> If so how come every LE handler and MWD Handler I have met/know trains in Prey/play first then puts pressure on later?
> Surely the test is to breed dogs that these people will want to train?
> Wouldn't they be looking for a dog that could be trained to do a proper B&H the way they do it, not a dog that needs to be pressured from day one, or not tested out the way they train it.
> What if that dog wouldn't have done the exercise if you had tried prey/play first?
> How will you know?
> How will you know the dog isn't just nuts?
> Genuine questions by the way, I'm interested.
> 
> It would seem that your logic is flawed by the fact that when they/I have pressure put on them, i.e they face a problem, they don't revert to their foundation but rather get defensive (show aggression whatever that actually means) and start barking for real (if the decoy is any use of course)
> Respect to yourself for you achievements in sport, seriously, but training really isn't a one way only thing I find there are, as they say many ways to skin a cat, or get a dog to bark



It's part of a temperament test for me, but not all of it.

Maybe you have not meet the right MWD and LE handlers? Or maybe you don't see them training dogs in the early stages of protection because they don't raise the dogs themselves. If you know of some that do raise them themselves please tell me who they are, I would love to hear about their program and how it's structured. But anyway what they do has nothing to do with what I do anyway. 

I hope you can see the irony of you questioning my logic with a logical fallacy. So if you have not seen something it doesn't exists? But anyway maybe you are not capable of showing the dogs something that exposes them. Or maybe you work with exceptionally strong dogs. Also, because you have never done it, you don't understand that much of the pressure a sport dog has does not come from the decoy, especially at the top levels of the sport. How much do you think the exacting control of sport might make a dog stressed? How much does traveling in a plane, hotels etc stress a dog? How does that stress affect what is seen on the field? You gotta walk the center line to find out. 

Yes there are many ways to skin a cat. But there is only one first place tier on a podium.

Also I didn't use the word defensive at all. You did. And if you train the dogs as you describe I would expect them to have a "defensive" reaction when the shit hits the fan. I don't want a defensive reaction.


----------



## Matt Vandart

Christopher Smith said:


> It's part of a temperament test for me, but not all of it.
> 
> Maybe you have not meet the right MWD and LE handlers? Or maybe you don't see them training dogs in the early stages of protection because they don't raise the dogs themselves. If you know of some that do raise them themselves please tell me who they are, I would love to hear about their program and how it's structured. But anyway what they do has nothing to do with what I do anyway.
> 
> *I rekon you could contact any UK K9 section yourself and find out. I know two personally very well. Their dogs have been working for nearly 6 years and 7 respectively, had many operational bites and building searches for the bad guy. Very good at their jobs. Both trained with a ball and a tug. As far as I know pretty much if not all Police dogs in the UK are raised by their handler at least, dunno about MWD I can ask never thought to before.*
> 
> I hope you can see the irony of you questioning my logic with a logical fallacy. So if you have not seen something it doesn't exists? But anyway maybe you are not capable of showing the dogs something that exposes them. Or maybe you work with exceptionally strong dogs. Also, because you have never done it, you don't understand that much of the pressure a sport dog has does not come from the decoy, especially at the top levels of the sport. How much do you think the exacting control of sport might make a dog stressed? How much does traveling in a plane, hotels etc stress a dog? How does that stress affect what is seen on the field? You gotta walk the center line to find out.
> 
> *I am well aware that pressure comes from the handler as well but unfortunately I have yet to handle a soft dog so I can't relate to that much at all or even understand what the hell you are pointing this out for.
> Ref. Travelling stress:
> AS far as I can tell many pet dogs do alot of the above as far as hotels and planes and long journeys go and deal with it just fine IMO I know mine do.
> As for exacting control of sport, that bit made me chuckle a bit..... sorry, I can see exactly where you are coming from here, however, how about, I train my dog with a ball and relieve it of all that stress?
> .......and leave the points and podium spaces to you cos personally I'm not bothered for third party opinions of my dog at this point in my life, If it works it works and that is good enough for me, I'm looking to train my dog for a job, not after points for it's accuracy in training and the beautiful choreographed picture it presents.
> When I get into that I'm sure I will understand exactly what you are saying, especially if you actually explain it for us.
> Each to their own I say and like I said respect and Kudos to you for achieving this.*
> 
> Yes there are many ways to skin a cat. But there is only one first place tier on a podium.
> 
> Also I didn't use the word defensive at all. You did. And if you train the dogs as you describe I would expect them to have a "defensive" reaction when the shit hits the fan. I don't want a defensive reaction.
> 
> *You're talking semantics here fella.*


Look dude I don't wanna make you defensive, which is what appears to be happening here, I am genuinely interested in your methodology. I grew up watching plenty of dogs trained the way I think you are alluding too, and saw the, IMO, unnecessary pressure put on dogs when I (and it would seem independently many others) could see another way. I say alluding too because you havn't actually described in any detail what on earth you are talking about. It's all vagaries and questions. You and a few others seem to love answering questions with questions. Please just spit it out and stop being cryptic, I was never any good add crosswords.
What is your training method?




IMO if a dog folds after training it's foundation with a ball and pressure is applied, then it doesn't have the minerals and should be washed out with no regrets. It wasn't good enough and should not be used to breed from, get it neutered and teach it agility or fly-ball or something.
*If it does cope well then this is a good prospect because it has shown it can deal with unexpected stress in a situation where it expects none*

Anyway that's enough of my babble, could you actually please explain, step by step, how you train a dog to carry out the B&H in IPO and the reasoning behind it.
Thank you, I genuinely do appreciate it, you could (and quite likely do) have information I am lacking I would like to learn from.


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## Gillian Schuler

*I am well aware that pressure comes from the handler as well but unfortunately I have yet to handle a soft dog so I can't relate to that much at all or even understand what the hell you are pointing this out for.*

The pressure that comes from the handler should not influence a good dog.


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## Matt Vandart

Gillian Schuler said:


> *I am well aware that pressure comes from the handler as well but unfortunately I have yet to handle a soft dog so I can't relate to that much at all or even understand what the hell you are pointing this out for.*
> 
> The pressure that comes from the handler should not influence a good dog.



My point exactly.


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## Gillian Schuler

Matt Vandart said:


> My point exactly.


One's influence cannot make a strong dog weaker or a weak dog stronger.

Cling to your thoughts that the IPO Trial is a temperament test for certain breeds. Whatever you think over the pond.

Many breeders, especiallly in Germany, breed dogs not only for sports but for Police and Army. 

Germany has Anti-Terrorist dogs - come on folks - wake up!! These are not always bred from "Anti-Terrorist dog kennels".


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## David Winners

MWDs are not trained to bark and hold. When you send your dog, it's just below firing your weapon. There's no guarding the guy. He gets bit or shot.

MWDs are not trained to bite using a Kong or tug. They are challenged and if they don't fight, they become single purpose dogs, at least at VLK.

Don't underestimate the stress of travel, change in routine, strange smells and environment. Altitude changes mess with dogs. Yes, pets do it all the time. They don't have to do the work. Fly to the middle east and find bombs sometime. You get boots on ground with your bad ass bomb dog and it can't find it's own feet. That's why there's a mandatory 30 day acclamation period and validation test before you can work.

David Winners


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## Matt Vandart

Awesome, thank you for that information of your experience. 
We are not discussing biting but B&H that's great you guys just teach them to bite for out in the warzone, I am referring to dogs used in a base not far from me for the gatehouse, are these not MWD's?
As a side note, do you use a ball/tug at all in training or are you saying you don't use them at all?
For anything?

Been to the middle east, but not to find bombs, rather to rebuild things after they got bombed.

Thanks.


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## Matt Vandart

By the way just in case people are mistaken, I have come here to learn not to enforce my ego/thinking on anyone or piss people off, I know this stuff can get a bit confused by the nature of a type written forum.


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## Guy Williams

I do all my foundation work in prey with balls and tuggers. I do all the training of my own dogs on myself before the dog ever sees a helper.

My dogs learn to yap and bark for a toy. They then learn to yap and bark at the helper for a toy.

Then the game starts to get a bit more intense.

There is a specific phase where the dog is made to feel defensive. Whether this is caused by environmental factors, physical force from the helper or strange (to the dog) electrical items depends on the dog, but it is a phase all the dogs need to go through. They need to learn that aggression is the tool of choice when they feel like that.

The aim is to make dogs that rarely feel like that but the job being what it is, that state of mind will always come at some stage in the dogs career. It is important that the dog knows how to deal with it. 

Having come through this stage of training the dogs are as serious as any dog I have seen. They most definately do not revert back to the yapping under pressure and they know how to cope when they find themselves subjected to a new level of pressure.

I know this methodology makes some peoples hair curl but it works for me. It is indeed just one way to skin a cat but in terms of cat skinning I find it to be a very humane method.


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## Joby Becker

everybody should also keep in mind the varying characters/traits of the dogs being trained..some dogs will perform differently, even if the same training techniques are used.

certain types of dogs will be able to do certain things that others will not, and will be able to be trained in manners that might not be good for other dogs. 

for instance if you have a dog that is easy to ignite, has loads of aggression and likes to fight, training this dog in a certain manner may be fine for it...whereas you train another dog that is different, with the same methods..the end result may be much different or not too impressive.


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## Keith Jenkins

Even in sport a dog is going to see the boogey man at some point if it ever ventures off it's home field. They need to know how to deal with it.


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## Lisa Radcliffe

Christopher Smith said:


> So you mean train the dog wrong and then make stress on the dog to correct your mistake? Yeah...that's not my style.
> 
> The problem with what you are saying is that dogs revert to their foundation when they run into problems. And if your dogs foundation in protection is that it's a fun game of obedience for tug-o-war , what happens when he has a problem in protection? I want my dogs foundation for the protection to be aggression so when he has problems he believes that his aggression will be the solution, not making obedience.
> 
> I also think that I see a pattern here. It seems advocates of obedience barking have never trained and titled a dog.


What about genetics? dogs that bring aggression on from a ball or tug game and take that very serious? you don't think that foundation can carry over to bite work ? and these dogs will not trade up with a decoy for a ball either- sorry off thread here- but I have to train a lot by myself for foundation stuff and see no problem later on if the dog has the right stuff in the first place but in my mind I see prey aggression as a serious drive-


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## Christopher Smith

> I rekon you could contact any UK K9 section yourself and find out. I know two personally very well. Their dogs have been working for nearly 6 years and 7 respectively, had many operational bites and building searches for the bad guy. Very good at their jobs. Both trained with a ball and a tug. As far as I know pretty much if not all Police dogs in the UK are raised by their handler at least, dunno about MWD I can ask never thought to before.


Two people living in one small country is not a big enough sample to form a knowledgeable opinion, IMO. 


> I am well aware that pressure comes from the handler as well but unfortunately I have yet to handle a soft dog so I can't relate to that much at all or even understand what the hell you are pointing this out for.


 I don’t know what you are aware of, that’s why I pointed it out. And once again you are showing that you don’t have a decent understanding of sport. Most sport people are dedicated to the dog that they have. They don’t want to get rid of the dog because it has a problem so they train through the problems. Do you think that by training through the problems one might learn to do things that those that get rid of the dog do not? 
Further, even the hardest dogs show stress. Stress doesn’t always exhibit itself in huge bombastic ways. Stress can be very subtle. It might be that the dog bumps a little more in the heeling or chews the dumbbell slightly. Maybe he outs a bit too soon or too late. Anyone one of those things can be the difference between the podium and going home empty handed. So are you open to the idea that maybe sport handlers are training their eye to see small changes in the dog’s behavior? And perhaps, because their eye is trained differently than yours, they might see things that you miss?


> .......and leave the points and podium spaces to you cos personally I'm not bothered for third party opinions of my dog at this point in my life, If it works it works and that is good enough for me, I'm looking to train my dog for a job, not after points for its accuracy in training and the beautiful choreographed picture it presents.


 That’s cool. But since this thread is about sport training and sport largely is about the points, why are you giving advice about it? Maybe because you don’t care about the points you fail to give that due consideration? Do you think that’s possible?



> You're talking semantics here fella.


 I know it might seem like semantics to you but, I believe, that that is due to your lack of understanding. Let me start you down a path you might not have considered. Defense is fight, flight or freeze. These three components are inseparable. When you work a dog in defense you might get fight but you also get flight and freeze. Also defense is a reaction. The decoy does something and the dog reacts. When working in defense the decoy is the aggressor and the dog gets weak and/or defensive. 
Aggression on the other hand is offensive. The dog creates it and brings it to the decoy. He feels is bark is so impressive to the helper that he believes he can fight with his voice. The dog feels that he is in control of the decoy at all times. He feels stressed he knows that his aggression (biting, barking, opposing) will make the decoy weaker. 

And no, I can’t give you a step by step guide to how I train. That’s like asking a doctor something like how do you make sick people well. Or an artist how does he create a work of art. There is no paint by numbers.
I’m not getting defensive or angry. I’m just annoyed by people that think they know how to train for sport that have never done it. I feel like a Vietnam veteran listing to people talk about the war like experts just because they saw Apocalypse Now and Full Metal Jacket on Blu-ray. But if you really want to learn what I do, I will gladly host you my home for a we can train as much as like.


----------



## Lisa Radcliffe

Joby Becker said:


> everybody should also keep in mind the varying characters/traits of the dogs being trained..some dogs will perform differently, even if the same training techniques are used.
> 
> certain types of dogs will be able to do certain things that others will not, and will be able to be trained in manners that might not be good for other dogs.
> 
> for instance if you have a dog that is easy to ignite, has loads of aggression and likes to fight, training this dog in a certain manner may be fine for it...whereas you train another dog that is different, with the same methods..the end result may be much different or not too impressive.


Good post! had I read on to see it I would not have posted on the earlier quote by Chris-


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## Keith Jenkins

Did anyone else feel a shift in the force?....I'm starting to actually like Christopher. :-o


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## rick smith

maybe it's trivial or already well known, but i've heard the "fight, flight, etc" analogy used a LOT

i do NOT agree the "fight" part is so easy to recognize and VERY much depends on the type of pressure put on the dog. which is why some people mess up dogs and some people make them stronger when they apply pressure

a dog gets pressured and chooses aggression. i'm fine with that.
but to say that aggression is "fight" is often a stretch imo

imo it's not a given.... i've seen too many weak dogs react to pressure with aggression and it isn't fighting, except maybe to get the hell out of dodge or get the boogeyman off its back //lol//

release the pressure too fast with a weak dog and all you condition is a fear biter 
...rinse and repeat a lot, and you have a stronger fear biter 

is this only a rookie mistake that would never happen with a seasoned trainer ? maybe 

i'm just saying there is a little more involved in the process that might get overlooked or taken for granted sometimes

correct me if i'm wrong or overthinking ... i often am 

my .02


----------



## Thomas Barriano

Keith Jenkins said:


> Did anyone else feel a shift in the force?....I'm starting to actually like Christopher. :-o


+1

I agree. It may be time to start a "I'm starting to agree with Christopher Smith" 12 step program?


----------



## Christopher Smith

Lisa Radcliffe said:


> What about genetics? dogs that bring aggression on from a ball or tug game and take that very serious? you don't think that foundation can carry over to bite work ? and these dogs will not trade up with a decoy for a ball either- sorry off thread here- but I have to train a lot by myself for foundation stuff and see no problem later on if the dog has the right stuff in the first place but in my mind I see prey aggression as a serious drive-


I think that genetics plays a huge role. You can't do the stuff that I'm talking about with aggression if the genetics are not there. But what the dog does genetically is not necessarily what gets us the points on trial day. So we need shape what the dog brings to the table to suit our needs. My concern about training like you describe is that the dogs natural genetics will not be what I need to get the points. So for instance, how do you know that your dogs genetics won't lead him to bite the helper in the face? Unless you train with aggression you won't know until it happens. Once again, why train the dog without aggression only to have to train it with aggression later on? In your instance, you don't have access to a helper and you are doing things the best that you can. I admire and support that 100%, but don't fool yourself into thinking that it's the best way to do things.


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## Christopher Smith

Keith Jenkins said:


> Did anyone else feel a shift in the force?....I'm starting to actually like Christopher. :-o


You have always liked me. Maybe you didn't know it....but you did. :razz:


----------



## Christopher Smith

Guy Williams said:


> I do all my foundation work in prey with balls and tuggers. I do all the training of my own dogs on myself before the dog ever sees a helper.
> 
> My dogs learn to yap and bark for a toy. They then learn to yap and bark at the helper for a toy.
> 
> Then the game starts to get a bit more intense.
> 
> There is a specific phase where the dog is made to feel defensive. Whether this is caused by environmental factors, physical force from the helper or strange (to the dog) electrical items depends on the dog, but it is a phase all the dogs need to go through. They need to learn that aggression is the tool of choice when they feel like that.
> 
> The aim is to make dogs that rarely feel like that but the job being what it is, that state of mind will always come at some stage in the dogs career. It is important that the dog knows how to deal with it.
> 
> Having come through this stage of training the dogs are as serious as any dog I have seen. They most definately do not revert back to the yapping under pressure and they know how to cope when they find themselves subjected to a new level of pressure.
> 
> I know this methodology makes some peoples hair curl but it works for me. It is indeed just one way to skin a cat but in terms of cat skinning I find it to be a very humane method.


What kind of scores are you getting on trial day? Videos?


----------



## Christopher Smith

Matt Vandart said:


> By the way just in case people are mistaken, I have come here to learn not to enforce my ego/thinking on anyone or piss people off, I know this stuff can get a bit confused by the nature of a type written forum.


I never thought otherwise.8)


----------



## Joby Becker

rick smith said:


> maybe it's trivial or already well known, but i've heard the "fight, flight, etc" analogy used a LOT
> 
> i do NOT agree the "fight" part is so easy to recognize and VERY much depends on the type of pressure put on the dog. which is why some people mess up dogs and some people make them stronger when they apply pressure
> 
> a dog gets pressured and chooses aggression. i'm fine with that.
> but to say that aggression is "fight" is often a stretch imo
> 
> imo it's not a given.... i've seen too many weak dogs react to pressure with aggression and it isn't fighting, except maybe to get the hell out of dodge or get the boogeyman off its back //lol//
> 
> release the pressure too fast with a weak dog and all you condition is a fear biter
> ...rinse and repeat a lot, and you have a stronger fear biter
> 
> is this only a rookie mistake that would never happen with a seasoned trainer ? maybe
> 
> i'm just saying there is a little more involved in the process that might get overlooked or taken for granted sometimes
> 
> correct me if i'm wrong or overthinking ... i often am
> 
> my .02


The first day the dog I currently have saw a sleeve, is also the first day she saw a guy that raised an object an postured/eye contact in a threatening manner from a safe distance while kenneled, the dog almost made it over he top of the kennel to engage him, literally exploded LOL.... at 9 months, with no prior training, seriously no prior training. The same day the dog was biting the sleeve full and hard after that, and grabbed the helpers bare arm when he raised the stick... From that day on the dog will attempt to forcibly engage a person that makes it known that they are giving the dog a reason to, on her own, and that includes me. Some dogs just really like to fight stuff, sometimes its animals, sometimes its people, sometimes its both....

SLow Moe is now almost 10 months and is still a goofy pup...time will tell what she is about in this area of character.


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## jamie lind

Joby Becker said:


> The first day the dog I currently have saw a sleeve, is also the first day she saw a guy that raised an object an postured/eye contact in a threatening manner from a safe distance while kenneled, the dog almost made it over he top of the kennel to engage him, literally exploded LOL.... at 9 months, with no prior training, seriously no prior training. The same day the dog was biting the sleeve full and hard after that, and grabbed the helpers bare arm when he raised the stick... From that day on the dog will attempt to forcibly engage a person that makes it known that they are giving the dog a reason to, on her own, and that includes me. Some dogs just really like to fight stuff, sometimes its animals, sometimes its people, sometimes its both....
> 
> SLow Moe is now almost 10 months and is still a goofy pup...time will tell what she is about in this area of character.


And what was her bark like?


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## Matt Vandart

That was a cool reply Chris, except for the bit about me giving advice, if you look over my post's you will see I have mostly asked questions and given my opinion on what I think would work.
I know pretty much bog all about sport training.
As for coming and training with you, that would be really cool because I train pretty much on my own here, unfortunately I can't realistically take you up on that offer unless I win the lottery, if you're in Europe some time then maybe it could happen


----------



## Lisa Radcliffe

Christopher Smith said:


> I think that genetics plays a huge role. You can't do the stuff that I'm talking about with aggression if the genetics are not there. But what the dog does genetically is not necessarily what gets us the points on trial day. So we need shape what the dog brings to the table to suit our needs. My concern about training like you describe is that the dogs natural genetics will not be what I need to get the points. So for instance, how do you know that your dogs genetics won't lead him to bite the helper in the face? Unless you train with aggression you won't know until it happens. Once again, why train the dog without aggression only to have to train it with aggression later on? In your instance, you don't have access to a helper and you are doing things the best that you can. I admire and support that 100%, but don't fool yourself into thinking that it's the best way to do things.


I am talking about puppy/young dog foundation training, not the same as when training with a helper/decoy. I never said without aggression? just different levels of it. Thank you for your support! I agree 100% that training alone is not the best way to do things  I start with the best genetics and do the best I can and have never seen a problem in the training once on a helper/decoy using a ball, tug, bite wedge or sleeve as my dogs know when it is me not the helper!


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## Christopher Smith

Lisa Radcliffe said:


> I am talking about puppy/young dog foundation training, not the same as when training with a helper/decoy. I never said without aggression? just different levels of it.


Oh.. see what you are saying. Cool. Sorry I missed that.


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## Matt Vandart

I thought we were all talking about puppy/young dog foundation??
Oh dear, now I am confused


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## Christopher Smith

Matt Vandart said:


> I thought we were all talking about puppy/young dog foundation??
> Oh dear, now I am confused


We were. 

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## Guy Williams

Christopher Smith said:


> I know it might seem like semantics to you but, I believe, that that is due to your lack of understanding. Let me start you down a path you might not have considered. Defense is fight, flight or freeze. These three components are inseparable. When you work a dog in defense you might get fight but you also get flight and freeze. Also defense is a reaction. The decoy does something and the dog reacts. When working in defense the decoy is the aggressor and the dog gets weak and/or defensive.
> Aggression on the other hand is offensive. The dog creates it and brings it to the decoy. He feels is bark is so impressive to the helper that he believes he can fight with his voice. The dog feels that he is in control of the decoy at all times. He feels stressed he knows that his aggression (biting, barking, opposing) will make the decoy weaker.


Now I am talking semantics but I often feel dog trainers are often talking about the same thing but using different language to describe it.

Here is how I try and make sense of it all.

Fear is a state of mind which leads to what we tend to know as fight , flight or (not seen that often in dogs) freeze.

The fight element is aggression - a drive aimed at eliminating competition (competition being anything that poses a threat to the health and welfare of the dog - Roger Abrantes).

What I refer to as working the dog in defence is more descriptively, pushing the dog close to his upper threshold - the point where he would abandon aggression as his tool of choice and resort to plan B - run away.

Through training it is possible to raise the upper threshold for any given threat, but more importantly the dog learns that aggression is the best/only tool of choice.

Through a good foundation of learning what to do in prey drive, experiencing winning in the face of increasing threat and learning that aggression is definately the tool for choice when the dog feels close to being overwhelmed, the dog develops what I like to call fight drive. It isn't a drive but it describes a dog that is working well within his comfort zone and is seeking out and enjoying agonistic encounters. Just like a trained fighter etc.

I will post some training vids when I get a chance as I know it's good to see what people actually produce. It's not particularly relevant to this post but this youtube clip shows my last dog in action. He is the Mali.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5-qZtwBKvFo


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## Christopher Smith

Interesting clip. What is motivating the dog to bark?

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## Guy Williams

Christopher Smith said:


> Interesting clip. What is motivating the dog to bark?
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Good question. He wasn't defensive as he goes low,fast and gutteral? is that a word? and he hackles from head to tail. I don't get a sense he wanted them to go away.

If he got close enough he lunged to bite and had several bites that night. I assume it was trained response to the situation/frustration. 

Although his bark was a bit yappy at this stage (it is always a bit tinny sounding) he had been out for 30 minutes. He barked almost continually. I think he perceived the threat but it was well within his comfort zone. I would like to think it is fight drive - the desire to mix it up. Although he barks to remove the threat when defensive he also barks to make it happen in prey and less threatening situations.

How about you?What do you thnk is motivating the bark?


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## Matt Vandart

Lisa Radcliffe said:


> I am talking about puppy/young dog foundation training, not the same as when training with a helper/decoy. I never said without aggression? just different levels of it. Thank you for your support! I agree 100% that training alone is not the best way to do things  I start with the best genetics and do the best I can and have never seen a problem in the training once on a helper/decoy using a ball, tug, bite wedge or sleeve as my dogs know when it is me not the helper!


Ok cool, so how is this different to what I posted?

Edit: Right I see the confusion now didn't read the OP properly.


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## Joby Becker

Guy Williams said:


> Good question. He wasn't defensive as he goes low,fast and gutteral? is that a word? and he hackles from head to tail. I don't get a sense he wanted them to go away.
> 
> If he got close enough he lunged to bite and had several bites that night. I assume it was trained response to the situation/frustration.
> 
> Although his bark was a bit yappy at this stage (it is always a bit tinny sounding) he had been out for 30 minutes. He barked almost continually. I think he perceived the threat but it was well within his comfort zone. I would like to think it is fight drive - the desire to mix it up. Although he barks to remove the threat when defensive he also barks to make it happen in prey and less threatening situations.
> 
> How about you?What do you thnk is motivating the bark?


Thanks for sharing that video..I found it interesting as well....

Is the barking encouraged or trained for in that situation? Did you give some type of alert command?

Is that something just personal with those 2 dogs or do those dogs work like that with all the time with other dogs near by?


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## rick smith

yes a very interesting video. wish the lighting was a little better

Q - would he have stayed next to you if you stopped restraining him, or was that being done to keep his "motivation" up ? (staying away from the "D" word for the time being)

Q - were the bites you were referring to done while on lead or off ?

Q - do you encourage the constant bark in these situations to act as a crowd deterrent

...and yes i realize it is not easy to keep any level of psd in control in with that type of crowd distraction, etc


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## rick smith

fwiw, i realize my Q's may come across as critical, but since there was so much chaos i just couldn't see whether you guys were trying to maintain some type of perimeter, or trying to move the crowd, or if you had just gotten swallowed up and were just trying to keep the crowds off you in a self defense mode.

my Q's were to try and put some perspective (for me) on how the teams were operating with their dogs


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## Christopher Smith

Guy Williams said:


> How about you?What do you thnk is motivating the bark?


I don't know. There is not enough info for me to hazard a guess.


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## David Winners

Matt Vandart said:


> Awesome, thank you for that information of your experience.
> We are not discussing biting but B&H that's great you guys just teach them to bite for out in the warzone, I am referring to dogs used in a base not far from me for the gatehouse, are these not MWD's?
> As a side note, do you use a ball/tug at all in training or are you saying you don't use them at all?
> For anything?
> 
> Been to the middle east, but not to find bombs, rather to rebuild things after they got bombed.
> 
> Thanks.


Tugs, Kongs and balls are used a lot in detection and obedience. Some handlers use them later in bite work as well. The dogs I have seen trained have no preliminary tug or prey work done before defensive training starts. Other MWDs may have been trained differently, as my experience is not at the main school.

The dogs you saw at the gate could have been MWDs. Most ECP teams are civilian contractors. AMK9 had the ECP contract for Afghanistan the last I knew. I am not familiar with how they train their dogs.

Mr. Harris could likely expound on their training.

David Winners


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## Guy Williams

rick smith said:


> fwiw, i realize my Q's may come across as critical, but since there was so much chaos i just couldn't see whether you guys were trying to maintain some type of perimeter, or trying to move the crowd, or if you had just gotten swallowed up and were just trying to keep the crowds off you in a self defense mode.
> 
> my Q's were to try and put some perspective (for me) on how the teams were operating with their dogs


They are trained to bark at a crowd as a deterrent. Operationally they are sometimes used to hold a line but are most effective when on the move, driving the crowd back. 

There is a command to get them going but most of the dogs just pick up on the situation and bark on their own. They will bite anything that comes close enough.

In this clip several riot vans are blocked in on all sides. Thee 2 dogs cleared the road ahead up to this point where the few who are left sit down on the barricade (they know we wont use force if they are passive).
The crowd start to regroup behind us so we pull back. The cowd rush forward and my dog bites someone pulling a bin back into the road. as the crowd start hitting and kicking me the other dog handler comes to my aid. In the chaos his dog bites me. The dogs don't fight as the clip suggests.

They are always on the lead. If I let him off I think it would depend what was happening as to what he would do. If there was an obvious target I think he would go and attach himself to them. If not he would probably bark and look confused and then bite someone. He is a mali after all - thats his default.


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## Matt Vandart

David Winners said:


> Tugs, Kongs and balls are used a lot in detection and obedience. Some handlers use them later in bite work as well. The dogs I have seen trained have no preliminary tug or prey work done before defensive training starts. Other MWDs may have been trained differently, as my experience is not at the main school.
> 
> The dogs you saw at the gate could have been MWDs. Most ECP teams are civilian contractors. AMK9 had the ECP contract for Afghanistan the last I knew. I am not familiar with how they train their dogs.
> 
> Mr. Harris could likely expound on their training.
> 
> David Winners


Cool, thanks!


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