# Spay Muscle Loss & Incontinence



## Annamarie Somich (Jan 7, 2009)

I have a 3 year 4 month old female that was spayed 4 months ago when she was rehomed into a pet home. She was returned to me last month because she was "too rowdy and too much in your face on the couch that we are afraid of her". 

I have noticed even within the last month that Charlie has lost muscle in her neck and shoulder area. The muscle is still there in her rear, just not as tight. She has always had more muscle than the typical malinois - she really favors her grandfather Andries van Joefarm.

She gains weight very easily now and I have cut her food intake in half. She only gets fed during training.

This week she started experiencing incontinence. During training when she is excited and barking for engagement. It is enough that when we are at the training facility I have to wipe it up since there are other dogs around us. And when she sleeps at night, there is a spot on her bed.

I see on the internet that there is now a hormone replacement for female dogs. I have also thought about using an OTC progesterone cream on her. If anyone has any thoughts or info, I would greatly appreciate it. I will keep Charlie and expect her to live for another 10 years.

Needless to say, I will not spay another female again. I hope that my experience will help others with their decision making.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Annamarie Somich said:


> I have a 3 year 4 month old female that was spayed 4 months ago when she was rehomed into a pet home. She was returned to me last month because she was "too rowdy and too much in your face on the couch that we are afraid of her".
> 
> I have noticed even within the last month that Charlie has lost muscle in her neck and shoulder area. The muscle is still there in her rear, just not as tight. She has always had more muscle than the typical malinois - she really favors her grandfather Andries van Joefarm.
> 
> ...


Recently saw this with Khira--spayed at age 8. I had run out of the joint supplement I normally use nd the feed store that has it was 80 miles away so put her on Osteo Bi-Flex [glucosamine, chondroitin, MSM, Boswellia Hyaluronic Acid Vit C, Maganese] and the incontinence went away. Years ago, when I spayed Asta, she was on Pro Plan. I changed to a more natural kibble without all the junk in it and the incontinence went away. My friend says that the vets are now prescribing a drug that helps. I understand your theory but I'd be a little hesitant about hormone replacement.

T


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## Elaine Matthys (May 18, 2008)

My first thought wouldn't be incontinence, it would be UTI, because it's so soon after the spay and they are very common post-op. I would check for a UTI before trying hormones.


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

I would guess that if she was "too rowdy", she wasn't getting enough exercise, or the same kind of exercise as previously, which might also account for the muscle loss.

I spayed my three year old DS bitch in the spring. Haven't noticed any change in her, except that perhaps she is a little more cuddly than before. Other than that, she's the same crazy, annoying mutt as ever.


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## Karen M Wood (Jun 23, 2012)

I too would check for UTI because most of my females have been spayed sooner or later. And only 1 has suffered any issues. And she was spayed at 1.5 years old. And is now 10. Around 5 she started having incontinence issues. I use Proin 50 
http://www.1800petmeds.com/Proin-prod10304.html
with much success and only recently she has suffered a UTI. Causing her to leak huge puddle of urine in her sleep. Since the UTI cleared up. No more problems.
She has never been high energy, or hugely muscled as she was always a house pet. And now that she is 10 she shows lack of muscle, but not when she was younger. And she was always an agile dog, for being a big goofy bulldog.
I think your girl is bored and need some fun, maybe an agility home where she could run that "in your face energy" off on something fun? Or maybe someone that wants to do sports just for fun and not a title monger?
Best of luck getting her issue cleared up and finding her the right home.


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## Lynn Cheffins (Jul 11, 2006)

I have had alot of spayed bitches and not had any problems incontinence - I also would check for uti first before doing other drugs. I have never noticed a problem with muscling etc but mine have all been working sled dogs - they do have a tendency to hang on to the weight easier so you have to monitor intake and cut amounts


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

I have had several spayed bitches with no incontinence, too. 


The books differ on how common it is. So do vet sites.

http://www.ehow.com/about_6518222_spay-incontinence_.html
_"Most cases of incontinence have nothing to do with the spay surgery, so the vet will first rule out any other cause. Excess weight, excess water consumption, bladder stones and urinary tract disease can all cause incontinence to some degree, so the vet will analyze the dog's urine to ensure no bacteria or crystals are present and will likely run a blood chemistry panel to analyze kidney function and cell count. If everything else has been ruled out and all tests come back normal, spay incontinence can be the final diagnosis."
_

http://dogaware.com/articles/wdjincontinence.html
_" .... incontinence, which is defined as involuntary urination, is quite common in dogs, especially spayed females, where approximately one in five dogs (20 percent) is affected."_


But even the sources that say it's "not uncommon" also say that a UTI is the first thing to check.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

I think sometimes what you see in the literature has more to do with not having "cons" to spaying. Of mine, I've had two with incontinence and three without. I've only had one dog that had a UTI and that seemed to present differently than what you see with the incontinence. You do want to rule out the incontinence though. 

T


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## Kat Hunsecker (Oct 23, 2009)

Read through this thread here, might explain some things...:
http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f25/castration-vs-sterilisation-25495/

Excersize for body and brain are something that should be a must, it will help with some of the occuring problems and will help maintain a healthier dog. "Intelligenz games" etc...
Since most dogs stay immature with beeing castrated and act like they are still in puberty, emphasis on stress managemnt, social supportand lots of training are helpfull.
Diet wise you should reduce energy and fat levels. Good quality and easily digestible and good proteins (meat) should be use alnong with plant fibers to ensure a "full" somach without too much energie in it.
Make sure all Vtamins and minerals are present and adding Glucosamine and chondroiden will help.
Sometimes i have heared- i do not have expereince with it-yet, give the medication that strengthen the closing muscle (sorry don't know the name) for a while and it might go away...

Keep my fingers crossed you find something...


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Kat Hunsecker said:


> Read through this thread here, might explain some things...:
> http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f25/castration-vs-sterilisation-25495/
> 
> Since most dogs stay immature with beeing castrated and act like they are still in puberty, emphasis on stress managemnt, social supportand lots of training are helpfull.
> .


 
I would most definitely disagree with that. I dont think most dogs act like they are in puberty at all. My working dogs are all neutered and speyed and they are serious and hard working about what they do now they have matured (ages 3 ) and are very trustworthy working my sheep. They also have great focus when triialing in agility and obedience. My older dogs are well trained, well focused and left puberty behind a long time ago. 

I really dont know where these ideas come from sometimes. My dogs are more than capable of doing a hard days work without acting like idiots, and I rely on them to do so. My young working dogs eat a high energy working dog formula and are lean and nicely muscled, you can see them rippling as they work. One just has to match the energy consumption to the dogs requirements.

Now getting back to incontinence. I have one bitch with incontinence. She has been incontinent since she was a puppy (congenital incompetent sphincter). I left her unneutered to see if it helped but after her first heat she got pyometra so she had an emergency spay so I dont know if it would have helped.

Her incontinence is easily controlled - I use a syrup called Propalin which acts to improve the muscle tone and is not hormonally based. It acts in a way similar to the drug pseudo ephedrine, a commom drug taken for colds. She has been on this medication for 4 years since she was 10 weeks old and it has worked wonders with no side effects that I can see.

I have read that larger dogs are more susceptible to spay incontinence. Mine are all around 20 kg and never had a problem

I have heard stories of dogs with spey incontinence being able to improve by use of exercise to improve muscles in that region, but dont know the details. I think regular tail wagging was involved.

It is important to first determine if it is a UTI as has been mentioned.


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Kat Hunsecker said:


> Since most dogs stay immature with beeing castrated and act like they are still in puberty, emphasis on stress managemnt, social supportand lots of training are helpfull.
> ...


Stress management and social support what the heck is that? 

Just give a working bred dog the work and training it requires and you wont need that sort of stuff regardless of its castration status. My dogs love to work more than anything else in the world. The greatest stress reliever and muscle builder you could hope for. Dont know about the social stuff though, mine are very social and laidback when not working, but they would really prefer to work sheep if given the choice.


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## Kat Hunsecker (Oct 23, 2009)

Sara Waters said:


> Stress management and social support what the heck is that?
> 
> Just give a working bred dog the work and training it requires and you wont need that sort of stuff regardless of its castration status. My dogs love to work more than anything else in the world. The greatest stress reliever and muscle builder you could hope for. Dont know about the social stuff though, mine are very social and laidback when not working, but they would really prefer to work sheep if given the choice.


In regards to both of your quotes, I would suggest you go back and read the whole thread about Castration vs Serilisation. then you might know where these ideas might come from.
As I also mentioned training is helpfull, obviously this dog didn't get the required training since it was said to be "too rowdy and too much in your face on the couch that we are afraid of her". in a *pet home!!!*
and who says they can't be serious hard working dogs??? don't think i said that with one word.
As to the stress management... -i am not going to roll in the whole other thread again... besides that thread there is a the web where you can look up the interplay between oestrogen and cortisol....
Here is the link again:
http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBull...isation-25495/


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## Gina Pasieka (Apr 25, 2010)

I also agree about checking her for a UTI. The issue with incontinence and spaying usually occurs when they are spayed very young prior to going through 1 or 2 heat cycles. It sounds like your bitch should have gone through a few cycles prior to the spay considering her current age. I would agree that the muscle loss is secondary to the lack of exercise and not the spay. Progesterone would not help a dog with incontinence. Hormonal incontinence is controlled with estrogen. We don't take the use of estrogen supplementation lightly, as it can cause bone marrow issues. So once again, a urinalysis appears to the be the next logical step.


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Kat Hunsecker said:


> In regards to both of your quotes, I would suggest you go back and read the whole thread about Castration vs Serilisation. then you might know where these ideas might come from.
> As I also mentioned training is helpfull, obviously this dog didn't get the required training since it was said to be "too rowdy and too much in your face on the couch that we are afraid of her". in a *pet home!!!*
> and who says they can't be serious hard working dogs??? don't think i said that with one word.
> As to the stress management... -i am not going to roll in the whole other thread again... besides that thread there is a the web where you can look up the interplay between oestrogen and cortisol....
> ...


 
I know where they come from, I was being facetious, and I have already made the comment that I consider some of those studies are poorly constructed and analysed in the other thread.

You said most dogs that are castrated are immature and remain like they are still in puberty. 

Well I say from my experience that is complete rubbish. A good working dog appropriately worked and managed is just as good, well muscled and lean as any uncastrated dog in my experience. I know plenty of well balanced castrated sheepdogs and agility dogs that in no way resemble a dog going through puberty. Mine are all quite capable of switching off and completely relaxing when not working. They mature and puberty is left behind.


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

I will explain why I just dont take the conclusions of one study and broadbrush apply it. Having working in the field of agriculture for many years you see the results of a lot of research. Some goes on to be revolutionary many others turn out to be completely different results in the field and some is snake oil, looks convincing at first glance in the lab and many farmers buy in to it. Ask for the experimental details and large holes appear and it is rarely replicated in the field except by people who are convinced

If a piece of research seems like it could have application you then go out into the field and work with farmers who have wide range of experience and test it. It is amazing what can surface and hypothesis are often tweaked and re tested.

Your broadbrush statement that you made which covers nearly all castrated dogs does not hold true with my experience with over 40 castrated dogs of my own. If they were in continual puberty I dont have either the time or energy to deal with that. But as they are defintiely not, I can only conclude that the hypothesis needs further testing and refining to sort out the real effects of the cortisol oestrogen interaction and what some of the mitigating factors might be in some dogs.

Perhaps indeed there are certain situations where castration is not the best option for certain dogs. There need to be better recommendations rather than a broadbrush assumption that covers all dogs and all situations.


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## Kat Hunsecker (Oct 23, 2009)

Sara Waters said:


> I will explain why I just dont take the conclusions of one study and broadbrush apply it.(...)broadbrush assumption that covers all dogs and all situations.


But you broadbrush from 40 dogs you owned to all others??? so studies are bogus???
I agree studies can be one sided and inacurate... If these scientists the Vet and the behaviorist are so off in their findings... can you show me other scientific evidence that these symptoms never are a result of castration??
and the puberty thing ...well look at the brain developement and hormones and their relation. not every dog is obnoctious and to an extrem displaying puberty. but you rob developement of the brain if you remove the source of necessary hormones... how extreme pberty is and where the dog gets hindered through castration in developent it is pending on the individual. and no it does not mean they cannot have a working career.
I very much agree, that all other options like UTI need to be explored before... but it might be something that dog has to cope with...and finding best ways to manage an removal of an intact organ is a good thing. It is an very massive intrution on the body regardless. 

Trying to find the source of this dogs incontinence and muscle loss is priority, and I hope this dog will find a good management plan.


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Kat Hunsecker said:


> But you broadbrush from 40 dogs you owned to all others??? so studies are bogus???
> I agree studies can be one sided and inacurate... If these scientists the Vet and the behaviorist are so off in their findings... can you show me other scientific evidence that these symptoms never are a result of castration??
> and the puberty thing ...well look at the brain developement and hormones and their relation. not every dog is obnoctious and to an extrem displaying puberty. but you rob developement of the brain if you remove the source of necessary hormones... how extreme pberty is and where the dog gets hindered through castration in developent it is pending on the individual. and no it does not mean they cannot have a working career.
> I very much agree, that all other options like UTI need to be explored before... but it might be something that dog has to cope with...and finding best ways to manage an removal of an intact organ is a good thing. It is an very massive intrution on the body regardless.
> ...


No I dont broadbrush that my 40 dogs apply to all other dogs - you didnt read what I said. I said that it would cause me to question the findings about " nearly all dogs" and ask more questions for example about whether some dogs were more at risk than others and what role does enviroment, diet, training, work structure, breed and genetics play in the application of these findings.

I dont jump and say oh a 3 yo dog was speyed 4 months ago so its boistourous behavior must be because speyed dogs behave like they are in puberty. There are just so many factors involved

If you can find me full details and experimental design and analysis of the study I would like to look through it. I would not take one study, read the summary and believe it is correct. From what I have seen over the years not all research is good research, there are agendas, biases, poor experiemntal design. Being a vet, behaviourist, scientist does not automatically mean that research is good, I have worked for a science and research organisation and know this to be true.

We tend to scan the internet for studies that support what we believe without ctitically evaluating them.

I believe that spey incontinence is indeed a risk of speying. 

Behavioural problems for me are up in the air. A puppy speyed at 8 weeks could have a very different profile to one speyed at 6 months or 3 yo. I know people with over the top bitches that they cant manage and believe that speying will fix the problems and settle the bitch. I dont believe that either, but it could influence a study if that dog were included in it. It may have had the problem before it was castrated.

I also dont belive castration is a major invasion, mine recovered form it as quickly as from a lanced abcess.


A friend of mine is being treated for Melanoma. He told me about a new treatment. At first glance it looked promising but only in a portion of the patients maybe 40-50%. 

When they investigated further they found that people without a particular gene responded 0% of the time and people with the gene had a very high level of response which gave a very different perspective to indvidual patients. Unfortunately my friend doesnt have the gene.


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Kat I guess what I am trying to convey is that of course there could well be some concerns with the loss of the endocrine system, but I would like to see the research laid bare. The dogs, the people, the breeds the ages of spey, the type of statistical analysis used and the variables accounted for, the assessment criteria, was it double blind etc and all what is for most people boring stuff that leads to the discussion, conclusions and summary. I am much more interested in inspecting the origins of the summary before I actually believe the summary and conclusions as fact.

I have been in a scientific organisation dealing with the opposing research on GM crops and climate change and it has left me somewhat jaded about the way a lot of research is manipulated to suit a purpose, both conciously and subconciously

I have had a dog (an unspeyed bitch at the time) diagnosed with dominance aggression by a behaviourist with a doctorate at a university and suggested perfecting the alpha roll as a method of fixing her. I thought that cant be right and indeed she was correctly diagnosed with fear aggression - by a very experienced hands on trainer. Some academics (not all by a long shot) can sometimes live in lala land and I dread to think what his assessments would have been like in a research project.

I have indeed changed my pattern of neutering - I now do my dogs at about 22-24 months and bitches up to 12 months, rather than both at 6 months. I do this not because my experience has shown me any problems with 6 month castrating but because I recognise that the endocrine system plays a role in early skeltal development. I would still consider however that a poorly structured heavy entire dog is going to be at greater risk of cruciate problems than a well structured light castrated dog.


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## Kat Hunsecker (Oct 23, 2009)

Well , ok we are getting closer now...
some studies are provided in the other thread, as ell as some info on the behavioral side of the influences of the endocrine system...so if you want to do further research, go ahead. The start is all there. Besides the book, there are studies listed. and they are easy to google- as i did. granted with some you will run into language issues. but it is all there...
It does not only play a role in the skeletal area... i encourage you to look into it...


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Kat Hunsecker said:


> Well , ok we are getting closer now...
> some studies are provided in the other thread, as ell as some info on the behavioral side of the influences of the endocrine system...so if you want to do further research, go ahead. The start is all there. Besides the book, there are studies listed. and they are easy to google- as i did. granted with some you will run into language issues. but it is all there...
> It does not only play a role in the skeletal area... i encourage you to look into it...


 
I have had a look as I said before at the links and never found what I need- the explicit experimental details. I see the discussions the summaries but not what I am looking for. A lot of it is a collection of surveys and discussion of results of surveys and trials. 

So based on my own experience and the experience of many others I trial with and am friends with over the years, which include several specialist vets who do a lot of referral surgery, I continue to believe that there are more important considerations like genetics, diet and environment that play more major roles on the health and behaviour of dogs. I also believe there are probably breed differences with it being more important in some breeds than others, but have never seen anything truly definitive. How important is all this to a working BC? so far in my dogs not very, they are more at risk at being killed by wild dogs if they were not neutered.

I am seeing a long time friend who is a specialist referral vet for 30 years with an excelent reputation, in a few weeks so will ask him more. I know he neuters his own dogs.


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

I just find it very hard to buy into the said behavioural effects when I have never witnessed it. I have seen a lot of entire dogs dropped off in rescue with severe behavioural problems and I have seen behavioural problems that seem to be common in lines of dogs, which is a genetic component and I wouldnt go near those lines. 

I have seen behavioural problems in dogs that were never socialised or trained properly regardless of castration status. My mum has an ex breeding bitch, entire that came to her with many behavioral problems associated with being in a kennel all her life.

I have seldom seen problems in dogs from good lines, that have been well trained regardless of the castration status. That is what really makes me question how those trials were designed and assessed and untill I find those experiemental designs, and I have looked,I remain in the dark.


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Kat -The sort of details I am looking for - sample number and how many times the trial was replicated. If there were a number of people involved in assessment and taking samples, were the dogs randomly allocated across the people and was their castration status unknown by the sampler or behavioral assesor. So ideally the dogs would be completely randomly allocated by an outside manager and no one involved in the trial would know their castration status to avoid subjective bias creeping in. This happens beleive me, have been guilty of it myself, so best not to know.

How were the dogs selected and sourced, and was thought given to their original background, breed,diet and weight to try and make the comparisons as unbiased by previous history as possible, could be important if the sample size and replication was small

So how much effort was put in the design to minimise the effect of all factors other than what they were wanting to assess. The other interesting information would be how they made their behavioural assessments - what tests did they put the dogs through.

Can you give me a link that takes me to what I am looking for. Thanks


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## Kat Hunsecker (Oct 23, 2009)

I get what you are saying...
Of course there are breed specific traits and genetics involved, but I do not buy eitehr that castrating is as easy on the critters then everybody believes.... Facts are found and shown. 
not only in regards to incontinence but the whole system...

studies are not fool proof. 
Unfortunatly I just found the compact summary, not sure if you can find those online in complete order... some websites you can purchase the studie and findings...
but I am not paying for these... LOL

See i allready have a different base of opinion, since I grew up with a whole different mentality towards this subject and some facts were just known a long time. By the Vets i knew, and Castration was not a comon thing, you dealt with the natural things and and if then you only if really needed sterilized. 
For me it is a lot of comon knowledge we knew for years, but recently underlined with more findings and even more facts and further going ...


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Kat Hunsecker said:


> I get what you are saying...
> Of course there are breed specific traits and genetics involved, but I do not buy eitehr that castrating is as easy on the critters then everybody believes.... Facts are found and shown.
> not only in regards to incontinence but the whole system...
> 
> ...


Yes I think difference in experiences definitely influences how we view things. My parents certainly started with unneutered dogs as sterilisation wasnt common where my parents origins are (My parents are from Europe). Their first bitch went through so many phantom pregnancies and other problems that they decided to spey her and things were just much better for her, and they speyed ever since. 

Our first male was unneutered as it wasnt common to castrate males but we lived on a farm and he was a just one of those males that spends all his time trying to get to the many females in the area. A visiting child let him out and he was shot and killed. 

So from that point on everything was castrated and we never really had any health, behaviour, weight problems or ortopedic problems so it is what I grew up with. Nice healthy, well behaved dogs all of them, mostly nicely structured so we avoided too many ortho type problems. 

We had lots of horses too and the males were all castrated as handling stallions are not for kids really.

But I do realise that research points to certain things. I just find it hard to find the studies I want to see how it was all done because I know there are so many variables, so I can satisfy myself. That is just the scientist in me. I guess one does have to pay for the detail. I will ask my vet friends as they get the latest vet journals and the full edition of the research papers.

I think I would perhaps do it differently if I lived in a different environment and had a large breed dog or one of those breeds that seems to be at a higher risk of certain diseases like osteosarcoma or cruciate problems or spey incontinence

Or if I thought that castration was doing a lot more damage to the breeds I have, but it just hasnt been my experience. A wild dog will do way more damage if they are attracted in. I try and keep them fit, lean, good diet and well trained. I do a lot with them.


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## Karen M Wood (Jun 23, 2012)

Kat, i was wondering. Have you personally owned a spayed or neutered dog yourself? 
Since your from part of the world where this is fairly uncommon.
I've had both. And i have only had one dog with a spay incontience. But i have had males who were monocryptorcid, false pregencies, no pyos thank goodness. And i've done my altering of pets after they have a chance to mature a bit. 
I don't care about studies, what is your personal experience.
Karen

_

Part II is over here:
_
http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f25/neuter-not-continued-25632/#post368518


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## Kat Hunsecker (Oct 23, 2009)

Moved here: http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f25/neuter-not-continued-25632/#post368518


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Moved here: http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f25/neuter-not-continued-25632/#post368518


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## Kat Hunsecker (Oct 23, 2009)

Moved here:

http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f25/neuter-not-continued-25632/#post368518


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Kat said:
_
On the other hand I am quite curious, if the thread starter had found somethng more out about her dog, and if she is getting someplace...._


Me too. Annamarie, any update?


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## Annamarie Somich (Jan 7, 2009)

I watched this thread turn into a neuter/spay debate and stepped aside for a while.

My update: thanks for folks helping me to not overreact to the spay. A lot of my focus in the wrong area was that I was still perturbed for getting the dog returned to me. If I were to have kept her, I would not have had her spayed. 

I took Charlie to the vet and ruled out a UTI. At the same time, I have been more diligent about taking her out to use the bathroom on regular intervals and actually writing it down - I just don't wait to let her tell me. I make sure that she uses the bathroom before we do something active. So no more little puddles and no more wet spots on bedding.

I calmed down and thought about the exercise that Charlie was getting before I got her back. She was in a home with a swimming pool and swimming daily until mid November. Of course, that's when her rowdy behavior picked up in the pet home. My exercise program is a lot of running in open fields - I don't have a pool. So I think that's why her back leg muscle has stayed the same but her chest/shoulders have reduced a little. 

I do see a more laid back attitude with her now in my house. She is still territorial and I have to watch her with strangers around my property. I did some bitework with her before Xmas and she is still very serious with the decoy - ready to leave the equipment and bite the person. Well I ended up taking her to a rally ob class. And low and behold, her schH foundation came thru and we have found our place. I'm the one who makes the mistakes going thru the course! So we will do that - it's fun and keeps me on my feet. The course is timed, so that adds some pressure. I have my sights on taking her to nationals. Charlie is extremely social and will have no problem walking thru crowds of people and dogs at AKC events.

Thanks for your help.


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## Karen M Wood (Jun 23, 2012)

Best of luck with her!
Rally is fun and maybe if you have time she could get into agility? There is some smoking fast Mals in agility around here. Enjoy training.
Karen


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## Annamarie Somich (Jan 7, 2009)

I am doing agility with Charlie's daughter Abby with Rachel Long here in Houston. Rachel is an AKC Agility judge and is from England. She has such a positive way to approach training. She really knows the herding breeds. Our little class is full of dynamo border collies and Australian shepherds and 2 Irish setters. All of the dogs are fast and are requiring distance control - the class is full of serious folks and Rachel even has her new competition pup in there. Rachel was already starting us on crosses in the beginner class. Since the dogs and the handlers are so similar, she is customizing it for fast dogs/slow handlers. So the class is progressing faster than normal. But I am learning another aspect of how dogs think and how to anticipate what they will do. It is really helping my handling across the board.

Rachel offers a rally ob class, so I signed Charlie up. Rachel has a friend who is judging at the first Rally Nationals in OK this Spring, who stopped by to visit her and set up our course last week. The stations looked easy enough and the course really flowed along. There was a reg jump and a broad jump. The broad jump was placed to where it tempted the dogs as we came around next to it at the end of the course. There was a statue distraction next to the figure 8. There was even a stand in motion, recall to front and then finish. And I still get dizzy with all of the 270 and 360 turns, especially to the left - they have to be small, but not too small to where the dog sits. And walk around your dog 3 times. I have a new appreciation for rally.

I already have plans to start Charlie in Agility. Thank goodness Rachel offers discounts for multiple dogs.


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

I am glad you sorted through things and are now having fun with her.

I have 2 dogs I trained for obedience, untill agility and herding took up most of my time. I thought I would dust off my obedience trained dogs and take them for their first outing in Rally O in about 4 weeks time.

Glad to hear that it sounds like fun. I have to train on my own so hopefully our debut is not a complete debacle LOL. My OB dogs were actually quite good at obedience and trained to open standard so it will be me that lets then down probably by forgetting what the signs mean, which side I have to enter and the turns.


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## Annamarie Somich (Jan 7, 2009)

I have printed off rally signs and put them in plastic covers and bought floral stands for them to practice at home. I have also printed off flashcards to where I can memorize and not have to stop and figure things out. I am holding myself to schH stds under a time constraint. It is keeping me on my toes. Even though I walk the course at class, I still can't remember it when it comes time to go thru it. Charlie just follows along with my mistakes. Right now it is hard to walk the course and look smooth and as tho I know what I'm doing.

The rally class that I'm taking consists of 2 variations of the same basic course each night. It is up to each person to do their bread and butter training at home during the week. It has agility and conformation folks in it. I am starting to write the course down in a notebook. I need to start watching some trials and documenting the courses. From my understanding, it's pretty easy to get a title. If you want to be in the top 10%, then there is some competition. This is the first year for rally to be at nationals, it should be interesting to see what the standard level of competition will be.


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