# When, Where, How To Properly Lift Up (Hang) Dog



## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

No joking around this time!

A recent thread caused me to think about the amount of times and what dog it was that I hanged in my 67 years.

It is not for the feint of heart depending on how long the incident is/was lasted. I NEVER treated it lightly and it had to be a mighty serious situation that I believed could put either me, the dog or others in a potential high jeopardy situation. 

I was able to count 3 different dogs that I resorted to lifting maybe a couple dozen times. There are different degrees of choking out a dog. These were/are VERY serious dogs. 

Obviously I tried every other training method I knew prior to considering hanging.

When do you think hanging a dog is appropriate if you believe it is ever appropriate.

What did the dog do that caused you to consider this type of compulsion?

How did you do the procedure?

Did it work?


----------



## patricia powers (Nov 14, 2010)

bernhard flinks used to tell about one of his dogs. the dog bit him in the thigh. he hung the dog till he passed out. he felt it was necessary to do this so the dog would understand that he had the power to end his life if he chose. just keep in mind, bernhard has dogs that most of us could never handle in the first place let alone train for service work or trial. i have never had a dog that required this sort of discipline & i wouldn't want one like that, but for those who handle those dogs, i see why they must have absolute control of the dog becomes a bully & a liability. one other thing he did mention was that this must be done without anger, without emotion----just matter of fact. pjp


----------



## Kevin Cyr (Dec 28, 2012)

patricia powers said:


> bernhard flinks used to tell about one of his dogs. the dog bit him in the thigh. he hung the dog till he passed out. he felt it was necessary to do this so the dog would understand that he had the power to end his life if he chose. just keep in mind, bernhard has dogs that most of us could never handle in the first place let alone train for service work or trial. i have never had a dog that required this sort of discipline & i wouldn't want one like that, but for those who handle those dogs, i see why they must have absolute control of the dog becomes a bully & a liability. one other thing he did mention was that this must be done without anger, without emotion----just matter of fact. pjp


 
What makes most of "us" not able to handle one of his dogs?


----------



## patricia powers (Nov 14, 2010)

well, take itor for example. the dog's original owner could not handle him. bernhard offered to buy the dog the first time he saw him. he said, " sell me the dog now or sell him to me after he bites someone." the lady declined, but later on agreed to sell him.....after he had infact bit someone. pjp


----------



## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

re: Bernard's approach
there are other ways to deal with aggressive dogs that have had live bites

anyway, hope this thread takes hold

i have hung lots of dogs. never hung one until it passed out. how many have ?

had a few "single event learning sessions" by hanging .. but very few

been bit due to hanging with a flat collar that was too loose and from a dog who bit thru the lead. seen a few other people bit while hanging their dog


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

patricia powers said:


> well, take itor for example. the dog's original owner could not handle him. bernhard offered to buy the dog the first time he saw him. he said, " sell me the dog now or sell him to me after he bites someone." the lady declined, but later on agreed to sell him.....after he had infact bit someone. pjp


wooooaaaaahhhh.


----------



## Kevin Cyr (Dec 28, 2012)

patricia powers said:


> well, take itor for example. the dog's original owner could not handle him. bernhard offered to buy the dog the first time he saw him. he said, " sell me the dog now or sell him to me after he bites someone." the lady declined, but later on agreed to sell him.....after he had infact bit someone. pjp


And still explain it to me as this happens all the time with pet dogs...


----------



## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

I don't think hanging is useful for more than stopping an attack, usually, but it can be single event learning. I have hung one or two til they passed out. The idea was generally accepted in the military, as mentioned, that you have to let the dog know you own him. I condone this only in the event that the dog is actively trying to bite you. Other than that, I don't think it has much use. The goal in training and handling should be to set training up to be safe for the dog, handler, and having the dog be calmer after the training.


----------



## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

and how does these Q's apply to your training philosophy for working with a dog specifically on an aggression problem who has had live bites ? (serious enuff that the bite required a med visit) ... would you train the same way regarding hanging ?


----------



## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

I am not going to take on a working dog for myself with real aggression problems towards the handler. Period. 



rick smith said:


> and how does these Q's apply to your training philosophy for working with a dog specifically on an aggression problem who has had live bites ? (serious enuff that the bite required a med visit) ... would you train the same way regarding hanging ?


----------



## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

I mentioned there are various degrees of lifting up a dog. I personally only did it 2 times to the point of passing out. 

98% of the time the point can be driven home in a far shorter period. 

Never did do it with a flat collar, Rick. You're a brave dude!


----------



## Mark Horne (Oct 12, 2006)

I've only done this a couple of times, not to my own dogs but its good practice for TWO people to be present, for the Handler's and dog's safety.

The most important element as this is an extreme "last resort" tactic is the timing.
You must re-create the situation which causes the issue with the dog already attached to the line, line over the tree etc. I stayed with Bernard last summer, not as a paying customer but as a friend so I've met and experienced his schutzhund dogs, and his old Police dog.
The example he gave was a female handler had a strong Mal, she would take it for a walk in the woods and by the time it was 2yrs old when she turned to walk back to the car the dog would nail her. The situation was re-created, in the same location with the lady wearing two covert sleeves for protection. The dog engaged her and it was hung, this usually needs to be done a few times depending on the dog.

I also had some recent experience of a friend who hung a very strong dog but "bottled it" towards the end, a common experience for those born with conscience and integrity the first time they attempt this correction, the "hanging" was carried out fully. Sadly the dog became stronger over the next 6 months and the results for the Handler was 5 days in hospital.

There are also certain actions to be carried out whilst the dog is hanging, shouting NO, putting your protected arm in his mouth trying to force another bite.
Last resort tactic, but very good of someone to raise it as a thread. 

Mark


----------



## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

re: "Never did do it with a flat collar, Rick. You're a brave dude!"

not brave Lee ... a stupid move on my part from a piss poorly planned session with a dog i should have evaluated better b4 working with it


----------



## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

What do you call this when you are trying to stop your dog from attacking another?

I am only 5 foot and two inches but when we were at the vets, another dog and its owner came out of the surgery - the dog growled at mine and mine was about to lurch when I jerked the lead upwards. It worked - he was on a fur saver.

Another time, I was chatting to a friend of mine who has a Mali, when she said "watch it". A woman with a GSD on a harness was trying to drag the dog back who was intent on attacking Buster. I did a quick rght turn and "hung him" until he "communicated" with me.

The Fila Brasileiro was more manageable. The dog he would always consider his opponent was further down the lane to the right and its owner let it stand on its hind legs and "utter the most foul abuse" lol.

I knew as I advanced that one more pace forward and the Fila would cross in front of me and I would be lost. So I punched him between the eyes and called him "Fuss". It worked.

If you are very small and your dog is too big to tuck under your arm, you have to think quickly.

I'm not saying I was always successful - but nearly always


----------



## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

My rules for my own dogs are, if they bite me with malice then I show you I'm more powerful. Never passed a dog out, but been close.

Only hanged two dogs that weren't mine. One redirected off the helper and came at me, it was purely to prevent myself from taking a bite and wasn't near passed out. The other was a foster that came at me in my living room. No leash, it was more of a rear naked choke for lack of any other option and a jujitsu background. He nearly passed out but didn't.


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I had one dog that I had to choke out 2-3 times. The problem was that he was just as crazy when he came to. He was seriously screwed in the head (temperamentally unsound) and never did really get to a point I could trust him around anyone other then immediate family. My daughtes were small at the time so basically his world was me. 
We came to a mutual agreement that I'd live with his snarly attitude and he wouldn't try to bite me any more. It worked because my kicking his ass did nothing but make him crazier then I knew he was. 
I still wouldn't trust him out in the world.
My JRT was also a nut case. Pick him up for a good scruffing and he turned into a runaway chain saw. With him I realized that it was stress that brought that out in him. He turned out to be very controlable with voice.


----------



## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

now that we've all passed along our sea stories, let's get to the thread questions :razz:
---- "When, Where, How To Properly Lift Up ?"

for me
- without thinking too deep
WHEN : 
1. if a dog is coming at me and i think it intends to bite 
2. rarely as a redirection for unwanted behavior

WHERE :
....anywhere (not sure what this Q means)

HOW :
grab lead slightly higher than the dog's muzzle and slowly but quickly lift up as straight as possible and slightly to the rear which pinches the airway better. stop when the front feet are airborne and see if that is enuff. (at this point in my life i can't lift a big dog clear of the ground for very long and don't see much need for it anyway). all dogs will eventually give up and settle. patience is the key and often forgotten in the heat of the moment. i don't consider this fighting the dog at all, i consider it taking away options. and i try and NOT walk the dog around. my thinking is the less steps it can take the less options it feels that it has and the quicker it will give up. and when i put it down i try and walk the dog away quickly and not stay in one place. if it is an an aggressive dog i plan on it trying to bite when it lands and am ready to repeat the drill. if it will walk i consider it successful. will always end it with a walk or a trot with the dog

for me this is easier said than done. if it's a piece of cake for others, tell me how you learned and where i've got it wrong 

- what i would like to hear is what can go wrong and how do you react when it does


----------



## David Winners (Apr 4, 2012)

Rick, this method can certainly work, but leaves the dog more freedom to move. When possible I will use my hand on the collar instead of using the leash. I can pull the dog's feet off the ground and control it's head with my body. The twist you can put on the collar with your hand is pretty effective. I know it seems like it puts the dog's mouth close to you, but they have a hard time biting from the side IME.

This is something I learned getting the ball back from possessive dogs who will fight you for their ball, but has translated a few times to HA dogs. Getting to the collar can be tricky though if the dog has your left hand in his mouth  When this has been successful for me is when the dog is in heel position and has bit my leg. There is a bit of a learning curve to manipulating the collar into good position, but when you get it right, it really works, even with a flat collar. No air, right now.

Here is a picture. Not after a bite put the principle is the same. 

She was in the middle of learning to out and decided to stick when the reporter was there taking pictures.


----------



## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

I could be wrong on this but i think people forget the initial lift will usually ramp up the dog and they will fight harder, and without much patience the handler will just start joining the fight and it escalates from there

with a dog that doesn't want to comply i've had to switch hands and that is where it gets hard for me.
i also think that it is not just the air being taken away that controls the dog as it has often been argued to me. to me it's more of a control drill and if you let the dog keep jumping it will obviously stay in the fight longer and that's why i try to move it rearward if at all


----------



## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

David
i understand and use a collar lift also for a lot of things so i can see how that also falls into the category of lifting

it is definitely more effective for a lot of things but hard to get right in an aggression situation where you might not get a second chance to regrip b4 getting bitten


----------



## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

maybe splitting hairs here, but i feel there is a difference in selecting the type of compulsion when you are "teaching", vice controlling unwanted bad behavior
...even tho the dog isn't make the same distinction //lol//


----------



## David Winners (Apr 4, 2012)

I would argue that the amount of twist you put on the collar would vary the correction quite a bit, leaving you a bit of control over what the dog is feeling, especially on a thinner collar up under the ears.

I have done this after a bite, not before. If a dog is just getting shitty and I think we might go, I will use the leash to lift the dog to get it to ramp down, as you described. I just find it more advantageous if you can get the dog pinned up against you instead of flailing on the leash.


----------



## David Winners (Apr 4, 2012)

rick smith said:


> maybe splitting hairs here, but i feel there is a difference in selecting the type of compulsion when you are "teaching", vice controlling unwanted bad behavior
> ...even tho the dog isn't make the same distinction //lol//


I don't really understand what you are referring to here. 

If it was the fact that Fama was learning to out, this wasn't a training situation but an impromptu photo shoot with a combat camera reporter. I just needed my ball back 

I taught the out with a tug and transferred it to the ball using very few corrections. It took a bit though because we still had to train and operate in the mean time.


----------



## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

agree on the collar twisting bennies 

wasn't referring to the pics or you David ... it was a generic comment

some people teach outs with lots of physical compulsion that often isn't needed and some people like to hang dogs for the slightest "disagreement"

more like being heavy handed versus using your head and staying calm

hard to put in words, but to me there is a diff


----------



## David Winners (Apr 4, 2012)

I understand and agree.

I try and work around direct confrontation when possible. Sometimes it happens though, especially when time is a factor and you are working a lot of unfamiliar dogs.


----------



## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

I have to agree WHEN the dog bites or tries to bite the handler. This is the ONLY time that it is acceptable in my book. Otherwise all you're doing is getting upset and you then have lost control.

Leaders lead...others follow. Challenge to the "pack leadership" is not cool! :twisted:


----------



## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

rick smith said:


> now that we've all passed along our sea stories, let's get to the thread questions :razz:
> ---- "When, Where, How To Properly Lift Up ?"
> 
> for me
> ...


Where - I was interested if anyone has done this in publicly with non knowledgeable dog people and if there were any repercussions. 

When I did on the busy intersection I got a couple of shout from cars passing by plus plenty of dirty looks.


----------



## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

To add, if I get a redirected bite because I or part of me was in the wrong place or wrong time, or spoor target at a tug, I don't hang for that.


----------



## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Only properly hung one dog in my life (as in till he started fading), Bob the Bull terrier, I had to because he was in the process of killing another of our Bull terriers, when I hung him he still had the other EBT in his gob and wasn't letting go, it was hard work, Bob was a big old fella and the other EBT wasn't small either. That was after I hit him over the head with a shovel ](*,) (didn't have a break stick handy at the time) and TBH I would have just ended up getting bit in this particular scenario.
Used the collar and twist as David described. TBH I shit myself as his bite was the hardest I have ever seen and didn't want him redirecting to my hand or leg so hanging till limp was the only option. As soon as he started fading and dropped the other EBT I got him away from it and as soon as he came to he was on it again trying to get at it.
He didn't trust me after that if I am honest, so I sold him to an EBT breeder friend of mine, very sad about that he was a lovely otherwise.
Not a fan of hanging, but if someone is in danger,including yourself, you gotta do it (i.e nothing else will stop the dog) wherever you are and whatever other people think.
Problem is most idiots think that what they are seeing is what has caused the behaviour in the first place i.e you are an abusive trainer.


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Matt Vandart said:


> Only properly hung one dog in my life (as in till he started fading), Bob the Bull terrier, I had to because he was in the process of killing another of our Bull terriers, when I hung him he still had the other EBT in his gob and wasn't letting go, it was hard work, Bob was a big old fella and the other EBT wasn't small either. That was after I hit him over the head with a shovel ](*,) (didn't have a break stick handy at the time) and TBH I would have just ended up getting bit in this particular scenario.
> Used the collar and twist as David described. TBH I shit myself as his bite was the hardest I have ever seen and didn't want him redirecting to my hand or leg so hanging till limp was the only option. As soon as he started fading and dropped the other EBT I got him away from it and as soon as he came to he was on it again trying to get at it.
> He didn't trust me after that if I am honest, so I sold him to an EBT breeder friend of mine, very sad about that he was a lovely otherwise.
> Not a fan of hanging, but if someone is in danger,including yourself, you gotta do it (i.e nothing else will stop the dog) wherever you are and whatever other people think.
> Problem is most idiots think that what they are seeing is what has caused the behaviour in the first place i.e you are an abusive trainer.


you sold him because HE didnt trust YOU? because you strung him up?


----------



## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

Some strong dogs tough it out and go limp knowing you will let up, if you don't then the 2nd fight comes, this one is hard as the dog now fears for his life, better be physically in control or ER visit is likely, keep up the pressure and dog will pass out. For these dogs you could let up just before the pass out phase after the 2nd fight and typically all is cool for several sessions afterwards.


----------



## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Faisal Khan said:


> Some strong dogs tough it out and go limp knowing you will let up, if you don't then the 2nd fight comes, this one is hard as the dog now fears for his life, better be physically in control or ER visit is likely, keep up the pressure and dog will pass out. For these dogs you could let up just before the pass out phase after the 2nd fight and typically all is cool for several sessions afterwards.


 Those are dogs that haven't been properly strung up I think. I've done it once to a Mali I owned that had severe dog aggression. Hung him up until he passed out and shit himself. Had to because he would redirect on me if I was easy on him. After that he was a gentleman even while walking through a kennel full of dogs.

I've worked with a lot of aggressive pet dogs and only been bitten a few times. The worse was a Bull Mastiff that just needed some obedience but the owner failed to tell me the dog had already bitten a barn hand for walking too close to a toy the dog left in the high grass the guy had no clue was there. When that dog had my elbow in his mouth I hung him up. Well, I tried anyway. I'm 6-2 and he looked me right in the eyes. It was a scary time. Thought I was going to end up dog food.


----------



## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

Very possible Howard.


----------



## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

Interesting note above about trust. When I've hung a dog it's always been emotionless, calm, but firm, usually with some command repeated until complied to in a calm voice. I also pin the dog against something or hold then in a guard if in the ground so the cannot thrash or try and freak out. Just a "calm down, stop fighting me and comply, or take a nap with a side of headache". For anyone who has themselves been choked out can probably agree, it does have a calming effect as you approach the blackout, and is not what I'd describe as pain per se


----------



## jack van strien (Apr 9, 2009)

Any more stories about dogs that did not react well to being hung up?
Would just like to know what happened in bad cases.


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I lifted at the collar and twisted. This was ONLY when the dog tried to bite me.The dog would go out but if I was close it would immediately come after me when it regained consciousness. That was only about 5-10 seconds. and he was definitely glassy eyes and tongue hanging out. 
He was the only dog I owned that I felt was truly a psycho. 
The mother (mixed breed) abandoned them at 4wks and I raised him with a litter mate.


----------



## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Dave Colborn said:


> I don't think hanging is useful for more than stopping an attack, usually, but it can be single event learning. I have hung one or two til they passed out. The idea was generally accepted in the military, as mentioned, that you have to let the dog know you own him. I condone this only in the event that the dog is actively trying to bite you. Other than that, I don't think it has much use. The goal in training and handling should be to set training up to be safe for the dog, handler, and having the dog be calmer after the training.


What is the difference between hanging a dog until they give up the fight, either trying to bite you or trying to attack another person, animal, etc. and hanging it until it passes out? Both ways you win?


----------



## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

my worst case involving hanging was with a fairly small dog. black shiba; about 25lbs, 4 yr old intact male owned by 2 MD's who loved it to death because it was a great looking dog, despite the fact that it was horribly food aggressive and MANY handling aggression issues. they had never been able to even brush it. you could lay a washcloth on its head and it would come at you snarling. they had sent it off for 4 months with a police trainer who would not allow them to visit or see the dog during the boarding. came back worse. also escaped from their yard a few times. it was never dog aggressive and actually very doggy. would play with other dogs better than with humans. i took it easy on the dog for a week or so and pretty much stopped all the food aggression, but it would still only allow itself to be handled on it's terms. i started using a half inch flat choke collar on it. i got it to not bite a brush in front of its face but it would go nuts when you started brushing it. i would hang it with the front paws off the ground and sometimes it took more than 10 minutes suspended before it ran out of gas; jumping, snarling, shrieking and barking the whole time. watching it do this made me think this is how a wild animal caught in a snare might react. this went on for a 4-5 weeks when i boarded it but the hang time eventually decreased bit by bit until a sharp upward correction snapped it out of it. 
- but during all this time i never choked the dog out and that is one reason why i don't feel a choke out is always necessary and you can still own the dog using less extreme measures if you put the time into it. 
- but i will admit there were a few times when i got REALLY pissed off at the dog, lost my temper and just put it up and left it. whether that had anything to do with making this take longer is anyone's guess. but overall the dog got to the point where it could be wiped off, brushed and you could use a blower on it. and it was fine out in public. strangers could meet it and give it treats, etc

bottom line : police trainers said it was genetic, but never said what they had tried. i think all they did was toughen up the dog since i saw it as a very confident, dominant dog with no fear issues whatsoever.
- the couple were satisfied with the training results after i boarded it, but the husband was still afraid of the dog and never groomed it. i told them i thought the dog was safe but if they ever decided to have kids i would want to board the dog again and check it out. i still see them and ask them to bring the dog by some time. they never have, and say it's "fine", but i have no way of knowing that for sure 

of course this was no mal/gsd/DS working dog in a program with a time limit that would have had to be washed out if it didn't come around faster, but it was by no means just a "weak ass, pet-only dog either", so that's why i'm listing the story here. it learned to bite hard on a tug and had a pretty good grip for its size


----------



## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Joby Becker said:


> you sold him because HE didnt trust YOU? because you strung him up?


Yup, he had a full on case of learned helplessness after that I think, he moved slowly all the time, he wasn't happy. I don't think he linked the hanging to what he was doing, either that or he liked fighting so much he was pissed with me for stopping him.


----------



## Catherine Gervin (Mar 12, 2012)

Hunter Allred said:


> No leash, it was more of a rear naked choke for lack of any other option and a jujitsu background. He nearly passed out but didn't.


it's pretty cool to find out that jujitsu works on more than just people!


----------



## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

Catherine Gervin said:


> it's pretty cool to find out that jujitsu works on more than just people!


Oh yeah... and it is highly recommended to do it from your guard position on the bottom...lol

All you gotta do is place the dog inbetween your legs, if he gets too rowdy, bring him closer to chest/face/neck area... Should be very effective! 

Please dont try this at home...lol


----------



## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

re: "Some strong dogs tough it out and go limp knowing you will let up,"

for sure. 
- ive dealt with some dogs who played possum 
- that's one reason why i move out quickly with the dog. i think it helps get the point across that it's OVER and we are "moving on" to bigger and better things 
- i always say i think dogs are not very good at multi-tasking


----------



## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

Catherine Gervin said:


> it's pretty cool to find out that jujitsu works on more than just people!


Oh hell yeah. When I wrestle my own dogs a for fun I'm heavily leaning on jujitsu lol. I'm 135lbs... 90lb dog requires me to lol


----------



## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

Tiago Fontes said:


> Oh yeah... and it is highly recommended to do it from your guard position on the bottom...lol
> 
> All you gotta do is place the dog inbetween your legs, if he gets too rowdy, bring him closer to chest/face/neck area... Should be very effective!
> 
> Please dont try this at home...lol


It's a shift of strategy. Instead of controlling the arms, you control the head lol. Otherwise no different. All about leverage. And just like with people, you are *safer* keeping the aggressor very close and denying them the space to make a kick/punch/bite


----------



## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

Hunter Allred said:


> It's a shift of strategy. Instead of controlling the arms, you control the head lol. Otherwise no different. All about leverage. And just like with people, you are *safer* keeping the aggressor very close and denying them the space to make a kick/punch/bite


Thats fine. Though, I wouldnt try it with a pissed off dog...lol

But thats just me.


----------



## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

Tiago Fontes said:


> Thats fine. Though, I wouldnt try it with a pissed off dog...lol
> 
> But thats just me.


Well I've never wanted to try it either lol. It's more of a working with the tools available when the situation arises type of thing


----------



## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

A collar lift isn't the same thing in my book as hanging one.

It seems to me that if you have to do a collar lift all the time, isn't the underlying issue, poor training or disrespect of the handler?

Requiring the OUT on the ball, sleeve, or suit is a command. Understand high drives...but it looks to me like we put the dog in a position. We ask it to hit the field in high drive against the helper, then put it in higher avoidance to release the item under handler command. 

Now there's a fight on the front end and a battle at the rear. So why then do so many dogs have bite/release issues? :-k](*,)


----------

