# Videos of Jeff & Muriel Searching at the 1st K9NW NACSW National Invitational



## Jeff McMahon (May 18, 2013)

Check out our videos on the K9NW blog. I used the Coach's Eye app to analyze the videos like a Monday night football game!

Learning From K9 Nose Work® NACSW™ National Invitational Video Part 1

Learning From K9 Nose Work® NACSW™ National Invitational Video Part 2

There will be one more post with two more videos (one is an already legendary search in a large garage with tons of water bottles - some filled with food - and toys as distractions), so keep an eye out on the blog.

Jeff


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

hey thanks for sharing the videos jeff 


are there any videos of just the runs themselves? without the analysis?

and link to legendary search video yet? hopefully that will be available without the analysis as well..


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## Jeff McMahon (May 18, 2013)

Joby Becker said:


> hey thanks for sharing the videos jeff
> 
> 
> are there any videos of just the runs themselves? without the analysis?
> ...


I have not gotten around to posting the raw search video footage, but at some point it'll get out there. The last two videos, including the "legendary" search are coming out today - with analysis. Also, in a few weeks I'll be posting video of my student, Kristie Cervantez with Jasper, the overall winner of the National Invitational, and hold your breath... it will have analysis! I'll leave it up to her to make raw footage available if she wants.

Thanks for the comment!

Jeff


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Joby Becker said:


> hopefully that will be available without the analysis as well..


 
Just turn off the speakers. You're like me and would rather form my own opinion. What they think is happening is not what I, as a neutral third party, see happening.


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## Peta Het (Feb 13, 2011)

Awesome videos Jeff. I saw them originally when you posted to the blog but it wouldnt let me comment. I really appreciate you posting the footage. Good stuff.


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## Jeff McMahon (May 18, 2013)

Sarah Platts said:


> Just turn off the speakers. You're like me and would rather form my own opinion. What they think is happening is not what I, as a neutral third party, see happening.


Yes, no volume is an easy solution to ridding the video of commentary. How about sharing your observations with everyone? That way we can all decide if we'd rather turn the volume off on you, as well :-D

Jeff


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## Jeff McMahon (May 18, 2013)

Peta Het said:


> Awesome videos Jeff. I saw them originally when you posted to the blog but it wouldnt let me comment. I really appreciate you posting the footage. Good stuff.


Thank you. It was a nice bonus to get footage to share.

Jeff


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Jeff McMahon said:


> Yes, no volume is an easy solution to ridding the video of commentary. How about sharing your observations with everyone? That way we can all decide if we'd rather turn the volume off on you, as well
> 
> Jeff


Sure, since you asked. IMO, they don't seem like anything special. Just typical detection type work. Dog seemed adequate to the task however all the pauses you did for the commentary broke up the flow of actually seeing the dog work from start to finish which is why some are asking for the raw footage. I like the way you explain how something you can't see or smell is behaving. Normally, I have to use the dog to find out this because what the odor is doing changes from minute to minute or even from dog to dog. Of course since you are doing the after-the-fact, Monday night quarterbacking thing, that's probably the answer.


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## Meg O'Donovan (Aug 20, 2012)

Sarah Platts said:


> I have to use the dog to find out this because what the odor is doing changes from minute to minute or even from dog to dog.


This is what makes following a dog following its nose so interesting to me. 

Makes me think of this old song:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yls60hHYyYE

I'm not a fan of computer illustration or wind turbines, but this video caught my wonder at the mystery and movement of invisible forces.


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Meg O'Donovan said:


> This is what makes following a dog following its nose so interesting to me.
> 
> I'm not a fan of computer illustration or wind turbines, but this video caught my wonder at the mystery and movement of invisible forces.


I have found watching fog to be the best visual teaching tool (smoke from a fire is a close second) because you can see the movement across a greater distance and in greater detail. Even with this, I see the dog working the odor different then I visually see it happening.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Jeff McMahon said:


> I have not gotten around to posting the raw search video footage, but at some point it'll get out there. The last two videos, including the "legendary" search are coming out today - with analysis. Also, in a few weeks I'll be posting video of my student, Kristie Cervantez with Jasper, the overall winner of the National Invitational, and hold your breath... it will have analysis! I'll leave it up to her to make raw footage available if she wants.
> 
> Thanks for the comment!
> 
> Jeff


Jeff, not everyone wants to see all the coaches analysis and hear your comments on it, the freezing and backing up footage and drawing all over it makes the video almost impossible to watch the dog itself, and actually takes away from it in my mind..you would be doing the dog a favor by also posting the raw footage, it would take literally a minute or two.. 

It is not hard to post the raw footage, and why in the hell would a person (your student, which point out...kudos to you!!! yay) not want to show their dog working , without your play by play, people could see the dog, without being distracted by you..

Are you the same Jeff that is handling the dog? If so, do you always refer to yourself in the 3rd person?

is this about the dog, or about you?


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## Jeff McMahon (May 18, 2013)

Sarah Platts said:


> Sure, since you asked. IMO, they don't seem like anything special. Just typical detection type work. Dog seemed adequate to the task however all the pauses you did for the commentary broke up the flow of actually seeing the dog work from start to finish which is why some are asking for the raw footage. I like the way you explain how something you can't see or smell is behaving. Normally, I have to use the dog to find out this because what the odor is doing changes from minute to minute or even from dog to dog. Of course since you are doing the after-the-fact, Monday night quarterbacking thing, that's probably the answer.


That is what I asked for. I guess if you do listen to the commentary, there's very little I say is special about my searches (although, within the context of the sport, searches at the national competition were different and exciting to a lot of people) and plenty of things I point out where I go wrong as a handler. Perhaps the part that's special is a throw-away rescue dog with extreme fear/anxiety issues doing a complete 180 in just a few years through learning to do 'typical detection type work' to a level where she can fly across the country and do her work at some strange location with 100 different things going on that would have put her into pancake mode before - and do well enough to earn some placements.

As for the armchair QB'ing, the commentary & analysis is based off of watching my dog work the odor as we were searching; watching the video just gives me a third party view of what I experienced. As you point out, the movement of odor is affected by numerous variables that are constantly changing. Still, we can get a pretty good idea of what is generally happening from watching a dog work, and even better from watching many dogs. Often, even over the course of a day, many different dogs will work the same hide in a very similar way. It's not always as if the odor is doing some kind of cirque du soliel show every five minutes.

Like I said before, I'll try to get the raw footage out there, too. But, the point of the video with analysis was to give people who enjoy the sport some insight into what my dog and I were doing in the searches, and many people seemed to find it useful.

Thanks for sharing your opinion,

Jeff


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## Jeff McMahon (May 18, 2013)

Joby Becker said:


> Jeff, not everyone wants to see all the coaches analysis and hear your comments on it, the freezing and backing up footage and drawing all over it makes the video almost impossible to watch the dog itself, and actually takes away from it in my mind..you would be doing the dog a favor by also posting the raw footage, it would take literally a minute or two..
> 
> It is not hard to post the raw footage, and why in the hell would a person (your student, which point out...kudos to you!!! yay) not want to show their dog working , without your play by play, people could see the dog, without being distracted by you..
> 
> ...


At this point it's not really a discussion anymore, you're just bagging on me... I am handling my dog in the videos. I don't refer to myself in the third person, except for maybe in the title of this thread, which seems appropriate. My student (and I am proud of her and her dog, not sure why that is something to be mocked) asked me to comment on her video and post it - I'm sure it will be very different than when I commented on my own searches. If you knew me at all, you would know I'm nothing close to an "it's all about me" type, but if that's how you see it...

A friend suggested I join this forum for some helpful and interesting discussion and info. I'll take some of that please.

Jeff


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Jeff McMahon said:


> At this point it's not really a discussion anymore, you're just bagging on me... I am handling my dog in the videos. I don't refer to myself in the third person, except for maybe in the title of this thread, which seems appropriate. My student (and I am proud of her and her dog, not sure why that is something to be mocked) asked me to comment on her video and post it - I'm sure it will be very different than when I commented on my own searches. If you knew me at all, you would know I'm nothing close to an "it's all about me" type, but if that's how you see it...
> 
> A friend suggested I join this forum for some helpful and interesting discussion and info. I'll take some of that please.
> 
> Jeff



Jeff congrats on your performance at the trial.

I personally have never heard of anyone calling thier own dogs performance "legendary", but if it was legendary, it was legendary, to each his own.

If I start going to NW trials, maybe I will hear about how legendary it was. 

I truly have genuine interest in K9 Nosework, which is why I requested copies that were not narrated with all the extras. 

I could not sit through all of freeze frame, video backing up and replaying, with illustrating and voiceover on your vids, and I am not alone in this. 

Many people prefer to watch the dogs work in real time without distractions.

I asked for originals and your response was worded in a not so helpful way, stating that you will be posting more videos that are all cut up and really hard to watch IMO, and that the raw footage will get out there "at some point"...

In much less time that it takes to edit the shortest video you posted, you could have posted the raw footage for all of them. 

This board is good board, for discussing video and being helpful. I asked for your help with the videos, and your response was less than helpful. Even stating that another person may only want your narrated versions posted, which makes no sense to me. Hopefully when you post more videos, you can be more helpful and post the raw footage as well.

The videos are almost an hour and a half in total, for about 30 mintues of the dog actually working. 

I am sure that some people are very interseted in all the extras, and it is good of you to narrate your take on them, would have been better if Morgan Freeman or Mike Rowe could have done it though.  I know you are doing it to be helpful and explain things.

Some people including myself would rather just watch the dog work.

My responses were made because of your reactions to people expressing a desire to see the dog working without all the extras. 

Since you don't seem to keen on doing it, I repacked them myself, so I could watch them. Might as well share them now.

For anyone else wanting to see the runs straight through, and the videos without all the extras, almost an hour shorter in total, here they are....Feel free to ask Jeff questions about them, as he can answer them, I am sure. Although it may be wise to sit and watch his narrated versions first, as they may clear up your questions.

Here are the videos of Muriel and Jeff working at the K9 Nosework National Invitational. Congrats Jeff, nice work.

The Moat
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DaOLynsU-iE

The Moat Forklift
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JnPDvVM9F5M

Lily Pad 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-_SC1sDsyNg

Lily Pad 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HmBm23e8yFE

Large Int Warehouse
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aSH00BZPtLk

Warehouse
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08umvJcvKRs

Small Warehouse/Vehicles
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EmWZbQWX8mE

Exterior with Equipment
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-_UQanFJtM

Interior Tables
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ui_6eWB-2n8

And last but not least..

The "Legendary" bottle search in Garage 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sGyQlNZW1x0


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## Jeff McMahon (May 18, 2013)

Joby Becker said:


> Jeff congrats on your performance at the trial.
> 
> I personally have never heard of anyone calling thier own dogs performance "legendary", but if it was legendary, it was legendary, to each his own.


I was not referring to the performance in the search, I was referring to that search set-up. 12 great dogs ran that search and I wouldn't call any of us legendary, but the search set-up was like nothing any of us had run before and it was widely talked about within the sport as a 'legendary search' before I labeled it that... again, I'd never call anything my dog or myself does 'legendary'. Sorry if that's how it appeared.

Glad you could cut the videos to your liking. I still will post raw footage, just because I don't do it at your command doesn't mean I'm not going to.

I think we both have been reading each other's comments with a little bias. It's easy to do on the internet. My priority was to release the videos with the analysis for the K9NW blog for people who wanted to see them that way, yours was to see raw footage. By the way, your original comment was not hiding the opinion of the analyzed videos you've since more colorfully shared, so I don't know why you're surprised that I replied in a similar manner.

Once I do put the raw footage up, or using your cuts, I really would appreciate actual feedback on the performances.

Thanks,

Jeff


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Jeff McMahon said:


> I was not referring to the performance in the search, I was referring to that search set-up. 12 great dogs ran that search and I wouldn't call any of us legendary, but the search set-up was like nothing any of us had run before and it was widely talked about within the sport as a 'legendary search' before I labeled it that... again, I'd never call anything my dog or myself does 'legendary'. Sorry if that's how it appeared.
> 
> Glad you could cut the videos to your liking. I still will post raw footage, just because I don't do it at your command doesn't mean I'm not going to.
> 
> ...


Jeff, as stated above, my feedback is good job at the trial, congratulations nice handling and nice work.


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## Meg O'Donovan (Aug 20, 2012)

Is the "legendary" of the last scenario due to the many bottles and toys scattered on the floor, the size of the area, and/or what else? I'm curious to know how the search problems are made more challenging in nosework. Are other confounding odors introduced? Yummy foods hidden to sabotage?


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## David Winners (Apr 4, 2012)

Jeff, you ask for people's time in reviewing your videos and sharing their opinions, and then respond in a defensive and offensive manner. IMHO, not the best way to receive constructive criticism or inspire professional trainers to offer their advice.

Thanks to Joby for repacking the videos. It's far easier to see the flow of the search in real time.



Here is my take on the videos:

You and your dog seem to be having a good time. That's good! The dog seems to know odor, and successfully found some hides.



I did see some things that IMHO, could use work.

You have no systematic search pattern, which makes the search very inefficient. The dog would repeatedly check the same areas, instead of constantly looking for new productive areas. There is a fine balance between the handler directing the search and the dog following it's nose, and this balance is not present in your searches. The dog is just roaming, hoping to stumble upon odor.

Free scanning in an area is a fine way to begin a search, but when the dog is just roaming, searching the same areas over and over again, you are wasting time, and allowing the dog to waffle over the decision to respond. You are also putting yourself at risk of missing an area. Search patterns can be developed in training that will allow free scanning, but will also maximize efficiency.

The dog does not drive to odor and stick. Several times the dog was on odor and left it.

The dog does not final crisply and with confidence. 

Your lack of leash handling skills lead to distractions during the search, by pulling on the dog, or taking the dog's attention away from the search to avoid the leash.

There is no search pattern for vehicles. A good team can complete an exterior search of a semi truck and trailer in less than a minute. If I was searching the moat area, I would have started on the downwind flank, and searched each vehicle completely before moving onto the next vehicle. If the dog turns upwind on odor, I would follow and allow the dog to investigate. The moment the dog disregards the area, I would move back and continue our search pattern.

About the "legendary" search. It may have been out of the ordinary for the group of teams there. Working teams encounter far more difficult search conditions on a regular basis. The gauntlet search at the K9 Olympics is in an area about the same size as that warehouse. There are 10 hides. The area is filled with distractors, including cages with live chickens in them, toys, food, urine and feces. The area is full of boxes, furniture, appliances, kennels and jugs. I'm looking for a picture of the event, but I think they are all on my other hard drive at home. It looks like an episode of hoarders. Teams have 2 minutes to find as many hides as possible. Some teams find all 10.

I'm not trying to take away from what you have accomplished. I'm glad you are out there having fun with your dog.


If you expect help from people, some humility and tact may go a long way. I know that I have already spent quite some time and considerable bandwidth reviewing video and preparing training advice for you, but your attitude has changed my mind and I'm no longer interested.


Good luck Jeff. Maybe I'll see you at a trial sometime.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

David Winners said:


> Jeff, you ask for people's time in reviewing your videos and sharing their opinions, and then respond in a defensive and offensive manner. IMHO, not the best way to receive constructive criticism or inspire professional trainers to offer their advice.
> 
> Thanks to Joby for repacking the videos. It's far easier to see the flow of the search in real time.
> 
> ...


Thanks for your input David. 

I got the sense of some of the same impressions myself, but am not very knowledgable about scentwork, or the rules of K9 NW, so I was not going to say much more than good job.

I sent off the videos to a close friend of mine to reiview before he leaves for Afghanistan for his second year of EDD handling over there. Hopefully he will give me detailed critique.


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## Jeff McMahon (May 18, 2013)

David Winners said:


> Jeff, you ask for people's time in reviewing your videos and sharing their opinions, and then respond in a defensive and offensive manner. IMHO, not the best way to receive constructive criticism or inspire professional trainers to offer their advice.


Hey David - I think Joby and I reached an understanding regarding the back & forth.

I welcome actual criticism of the performance. I agree with all of your criticism and hope to continuing working on all of the areas we are lacking.

Thanks for checking out the videos. I will again say sorry to the folks out there who do not want to view the videos in their edited state with commentary. Maybe you'll take a look at Joby's cuts or wait and check back when I post raw footage. 

Jeff


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## Jeff McMahon (May 18, 2013)

David Winners said:


> About the "legendary" search. It may have been out of the ordinary for the group of teams there. Working teams encounter far more difficult search conditions on a regular basis. The gauntlet search at the K9 Olympics is in an area about the same size as that warehouse. There are 10 hides. The area is filled with distractors, including cages with live chickens in them, toys, food, urine and feces. The area is full of boxes, furniture, appliances, kennels and jugs. I'm looking for a picture of the event, but I think they are all on my other hard drive at home. It looks like an episode of hoarders. Teams have 2 minutes to find as many hides as possible. Some teams find all 10.
> 
> I'm not trying to take away from what you have accomplished. I'm glad you are out there having fun with your dog.


You've got a fine point here, David. Perhaps for this forum it wasn't appropriate to describe the search as "legendary". Within the sport it would be similar to the gauntlet search you describe - larger area, more distractions (for us it's food, toys, animal scents, etc), more hides, and less time than a typical search.

Certainly, working teams accomplish way more than our pet dogs, and under far more challenging conditions. It provides much for us to admire, with the reality being that my dog and many other pet dogs in K9NW may never work to that level.

It's very true we had fun doing these searches, and we have improved since we started, but still a long way to go.

Jeff


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## Jeff McMahon (May 18, 2013)

Meg O'Donovan said:


> Is the "legendary" of the last scenario due to the many bottles and toys scattered on the floor, the size of the area, and/or what else? I'm curious to know how the search problems are made more challenging in nosework. Are other confounding odors introduced? Yummy foods hidden to sabotage?


Within the sport, this was a first of it's kind for searches. The typical search has maybe 2-4 toy/food distractions present. There were easily 40+ distractors throughout the area. The size of the area, the number of hides to find, and the time allotted were all more challenging than any search we'd done before. All distractors are put in to confound the dog - toys with slobber, food, animals smells, etc.

As I've since realized, obviously not a legendary search in the working dog world! Still, something unusual and challenging in the sport.

Jeff


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## Jeff McMahon (May 18, 2013)

For anyone who would like to see the raw footage of some searches my dog and I did at the first NACSW National Invitational, they are all up on youtube. Here's a link to one, the rest should pop up on the side bar:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ud9GDazdp_I

More videos of another team at the National Invitational are coming next week - they will be posted with raw footage first, then some coach's eye commentary directly following, should make it easier to watch in whatever way you prefer.

Thanks to all who took an interest in the videos and gave opinions and feedback. Apologies to Joby Becker and others who wanted only the raw footage, and whom I may have misunderstood and responded to with sarcasm.

I'm excited to continue learning from everyone on the forum and sharing useful info whenever I can.

Jeff


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

thanks, looking forward to some more videos. Speaking for me, I like the raw ones. This is because I can pretty much read a dog and like to see the work flow uninterrupted. But if working with folks who are new to scent work (which I think is a big part of your clientel) and trying to learn to read a dog then I can understand the commentary because they may not be able to see the trees for the forest.

But I think it would benefit your students also to see it in both formats. Either by viewing the commentary first so they know what to look for and then seeing it in real time or seeing it in real time and then bouncing it off your commentary to see what they may have gotten right and what they missed. Eventually they need to learn to read a dog in real time and raw footage gives them that opportunity.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Looked like some nice work. It takes a lot to get where you have with your dog. I couldnt watch all of the videos due to a slow connnection. You should be proud of what you two accomplished.

Keep working at it and fix what you feel you need to. I appreciate the look at the sport and their set up for this event.


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## Jeff McMahon (May 18, 2013)

Dave Colborn said:


> Looked like some nice work. It takes a lot to get where you have with your dog. I couldnt watch all of the videos due to a slow connnection. You should be proud of what you two accomplished.
> 
> Keep working at it and fix what you feel you need to. I appreciate the look at the sport and their set up for this event.


Thanks Dave. I've been reading up on some detection threads here on WDF and finding lots of very interesting info which I'm sure will help improve my handling and my dog's training. I've really enjoyed some of Mike Suttle's videos training LHK dogs using food reward. My dog has zero toy drive, food is her thing. Now, she also has zero superior genetics and would not cut it as a working dog - unless every mal, gsd, lab... chicken on the planet suddenly disappeared and humanity were left with no other choice - so certain styles of training would need serious modification to yield a positive result with her, but I'm willing to seriously modify if it seems like it would help us. 

If you know of any forum members whose posts I should pay special attention to for top notch detection related info, I'd appreciate it.

Thanks,

Jeff


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