# Prison Dogs...no out??



## Karen Havins (Apr 22, 2012)

So, in addition to kids and dogs, hubby and I do some gaming, total nerds, I know...

Someone in game started discussing her brothers dog with whom she lives with. 
She was bragging about this dog who works in a prison in California not having an out. 
He bites and won't let go....

I know my own thoughts on this...but since I haven't been around prison guard dogs, maybe I am missing something....Is there ANY reason that a dog should not have an out?

We'll ignore the fact that she threw in there that once you teach an out then the 'bad' guy could tell the dog to out...or that this is also a narcotics/bomb dog....and the TOP DOG in the state of california...etc etc...lol

Any reason for no outs?


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

A narcotics/bomb? Really really a bad combination. I've read the standards for CA and they do have an out. Maybe the prison system is exempt, I don't know. I would think it is not a good idea though.

DFrost


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## Karen Havins (Apr 22, 2012)

I just can't imagine a scenario where you wouldn't want your dog to out!


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I could. 

If someone molested me and my dog held on until help came, I would embrace it.

Sorry off topic, it's about prison dogs.


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## Karen Havins (Apr 22, 2012)

But isn't that the normal course of training? Dog stays put on the guy until he's told to out?


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

They're often called extraction dogs. You've got a prisoner barricaded in his cell. Send in the dog on a long line. Drag out the dog with the prisoner attached and choke off the dog. Better then trying to subdue/control them in a confined area. I heard a story years ago about one prisoner who stripped naked and soaped himself to make it more difficult to control him. Sent in the dog and the dog bit something no guy wants bitten


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

What? his forefinger?


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Gillian Schuler said:


> What? his forefinger?


Probably about the size of it, but this was hanging between his legs OUCH


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Prison is a place for bad people and lots of them. If something breaks out and you and your dog goes in there is no time to be nice. Dog will bite and take care of this man while the officer can subdue another. You don't want that dog to turn loose until all is safe. The dogs man will have to wait till the officer is safe. There may be more than two prisoners that have to be dealt with. Plus the prisoners will respect that dog much more. The more he eats the more respect is earned. LOL


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## Brett Bowen (May 2, 2011)

I can see not having a good clean out in that situation, as you want him a little rough around the edges and a little loose. He's going up against determined people with nothing to loose. BUT the dog better have a reasonable out, otherwise I think they are risking a violation of civil rights suit.


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## Mark Horne (Oct 12, 2006)

An out is a legitimate tactical option for a Prison Dog or even a Police K9. If you are dealing with a crowd and you need to withdraw as there is a risk to your life or to buy time by advancing and withdrawing whilst other units out flank the subjects.
I would argue that you would want a good “OUT”.

However in the UK our general Police K9’s must not bite anyone who is standing still or acting passively, this is the national standard. Likewise we also have Tactical Firearms Dogs or Passive Attack Dogs, these are trained to bite passive persons but deploy exclusively with the SWAT Teams.
We also use “Tag & Drag” where the dog bites and doesn’t let go. The dog is on a 50ft line and the SWAT team drag the dog (and subject) back to hard cover or as we say within sticking distance (big stick).

In Europe the French GIGN or Germany’s GSG9 use these dogs but the Handlers carry bite bars, basically they look like a screwdriver that when placed in the back of the dog’s mouth cause a gagging reflex enabling the Handler to drag the dog away. This has been developed to address counter K9 methods used by some east European gangs.

We’ve had a lot of success lately by leaving the dog “on” the subject and handcuffing him in situ, the most common injuries to officers occur when the dog outs and re-targets an officer, the injuries are severe. Occasionally the dog goes for a second bite on the subject; this causes more panic and confusion something you don’t need when armed officers are dealing with scrotes.

The Special Forces Dogs, like the SEAL Teams don’t out either, they normally wear e-collars. Imagine dealing with suicide bombers and the range of tactical options the team may employ.

Hope this helps.

Mark


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## Chris Salopek (Oct 7, 2011)

Hopefully I can clear up some misconceptions: 

None of the prison dogs in California are trained for patrol/bite work. We all run single purpose detection dogs. Half of the dogs in our unit also are trained to detect contraband (cell phones and tobacco) along with narcotics. We never (at least in the 18 years I’ve worked for the Department) have had and any dogs that do patrol/bite work or used for cell extractions. 

Having said that, there may be Counties that utilize K-9’s for such things in their respective jails. I’ve never heard of it, but it’s a big State. 

Hope that clears things up.

Stay Safe,
Chris


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## Brett Bowen (May 2, 2011)

Mark Horne said:


> However in the UK our general Police K9’s must not bite anyone who is standing still or acting passively, this is the national standard.


That's interesting. So how do you handle the guys who are hiding in the bushes from the dog standing still when they are tracking or search for them?


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Not a LEO or K9 handler but my issue with this whole thing is the gal "bragging" about the dog not having an out. Let that get out to the public and heads will roll. For good reason IMHO. If the no out is correct or not correct for any real life situation it's not a bragging issue!
I realize it's her brother's dog but did she pick up on that by herself or parroting her brother? :-k:-k Just a thought!


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## Mark Horne (Oct 12, 2006)

We track for missing persons, Alzeihmers Patients etc so not biting can be very useful.
Persons concealed in wardrobes, behind objects etc are a Bark & Hold, unless they are they the Tactical Dogs which nail them straight away. If someone is standing still or laying down the dog will generally Bark & Hold, this is not 100%, nothing is with dogs and they might just smash them up.

Much of our training and guidleines is around Humand Rights, your version of the constitution, excuse my ignornance. A key ingredient is proportionality, an example might be a youth who is breaking into cars and stealing radios, he runs away on seeing the Police, realises the dog has been sent after him and stops to surrender, or freezes in a state of panic. Is it proportional to inflict grievious bodily harm on him "at this point". Of course its not, what if it the wrong lad, another youth running off because he's out really late. Those involved in policing will tell you the laws of coincidence are surreal in our world.

Recently we were searching gardens following a Burglary at 0430am, the dog was off the lead quartering, two gardens along an old boy who was going fishing had sneaked into the garden for a crafty ***, just out of our line of sight, he saw the dog, froze, dog did a Bark & Hold, crisis averted.

That said, those experienced with dogs will know that dogs don't always Stand Off, and its a big challenge especially with seasoned K9's as they they don't like standing off. Our dogs have to re-licence to a national standard annually, we aren't allowed to use fur savers, so don't even mention pinch or e-collars.
Its very hard sometimes, imagine a 5yr old tasty street dog, he does a Stand Off on a passive person, that person then kicks him in the face, after this the dog just nails everyone without barking and opts out of the Stand Off.
It ain't easy... but thats dogs and reality...LOL

Mark


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

The question was should the dog have an out. I agree the dog should engage and remain engaged until commanded to do something different. I think Mark made a very good point when he said; " An out is a legitimate tactical option for a Prison Dog or even a Police K9. If you are dealing with a crowd and you need to withdraw as there is a risk to your life or to buy time by advancing and withdrawing whilst other units out flank the subjects."

I do disagree with the notion a dog should not engage a motionless or non-aggressive subject. The out should be part of the training. Tactically, hands-on, with the dog still engaged may be the best course in some situation, but certainly not all. 

DFrost


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

break stick...


Sent from my SCH-I510 using Tapatalk 2


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## Steve Estrada (Mar 6, 2011)

Bob Scott said:


> Not a LEO or K9 handler but my issue with this whole thing is the gal "bragging" about the dog not having an out. Let that get out to the public and heads will roll. For good reason IMHO. If the no out is correct or not correct for any real life situation it's not a bragging issue!
> I realize it's her brother's dog but did she pick up on that by herself or parroting her brother? :-k:-k Just a thought!


Boy are you right on as I live in CA & it's off the charts on the warm fuzzies. Being a litigious state is a constant joke but too true. Our Senators would have all the men skipping around. I'm very serious saying I'm looking to move but it's tough leaving the climate in So. Cal. Our LE's carry a huge book on all the crap they have to contend with, K-9 guys even more so....8)


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

"On the 8th day the earth tilted and everything loose fell into California". 

 Did I say that with my outloud voice? :-# :-$ ;-)


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## Brett Bowen (May 2, 2011)

When you talk about proportionality we have similar concept here just called reasonableness. Just comes down to was the force used (whether it's hands on, spray, taser, k9, deadly force, whatever it is) reasonable under circumstances known to the officer at the time? I just found it interesting that you essentially have a golf bag of dogs to choose from for the situation. 

to be back on topic, I think you need to have an out that doesn't require choking the dog off, taser's, etc. 



Mark Horne said:


> We track for missing persons, Alzeihmers Patients etc so not biting can be very useful.
> Persons concealed in wardrobes, behind objects etc are a Bark & Hold, unless they are they the Tactical Dogs which nail them straight away. If someone is standing still or laying down the dog will generally Bark & Hold, this is not 100%, nothing is with dogs and they might just smash them up.
> 
> Much of our training and guidleines is around Humand Rights, your version of the constitution, excuse my ignornance. A key ingredient is proportionality, an example might be a youth who is breaking into cars and stealing radios, he runs away on seeing the Police, realises the dog has been sent after him and stops to surrender, or freezes in a state of panic. Is it proportional to inflict grievious bodily harm on him "at this point". Of course its not, what if it the wrong lad, another youth running off because he's out really late. Those involved in policing will tell you the laws of coincidence are surreal in our world.
> ...


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## Karen Havins (Apr 22, 2012)

I appreciate all the answers, seems like this gal was probably full of shit, but the good thing is that I learned some neat things on the thread!


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## Tim Connell (Apr 17, 2010)

Maybe "not having an out" means the expert handler of the super duper "Spot the Prison Wonder Dog" can't teach, or can't enforce the "OUT" 

As for the combination narc/bomb dog stuff...there's your indication of lack of knowledge right there.


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## drew sterner (Aug 26, 2011)

Tim Connell said:


> Maybe "not having an out" means the expert handler of the super duper "Spot the Prison Wonder Dog" can't teach, or can't enforce the "OUT"
> 
> As for the combination narc/bomb dog stuff...there's your indication of lack of knowledge right there.



nail on the head, in my experience in teaching and helping to train police and military canines, the handlers and their "trainers" simply do not know how to train the dog to have an out. I cant tell you how many officers tell me they get the dog to out just enough to pass certification and all bites on the street will be a take off. They also tell me how they will never need an out in real life situations.... I just ](*,)


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Bob Scott said:


> Not a LEO or K9 handler but my issue with this whole thing is the gal "bragging" about the dog not having an out. Let that get out to the public and heads will roll. For good reason IMHO. If the no out is correct or not correct for any real life situation it's not a bragging issue!
> I realize it's her brother's dog but did she pick up on that by herself or parroting her brother? :-k:-k Just a thought!


Its all relative Bob, people are all different, of course I wasn;t there but look at it like this...Maybe the person just mentioned that the dog doesnt out. And then a conversation ensued involving Karen, who can't ever see a situation who can't imagine a situation where someone might not want the dog to out, and it went from there... Maybe the person was not really BRAGGING about it, but just talking about it...I have had a small amount of experience with cell extraction dogs, and a clean "out" was not something that was expected while being used for the purpose of extracting or dealing with difficult prisoners, that does not mean that thy didnt train an out at all, it just meant that they did not really use it for what they were doing with the dog. I have heard the exact same thing said by people that used dogs for that purpose, that the dog doesnt out...I did not see that as "bragging", I saw it as a statement about the dog. Again I wasnt there, but maybe Karen's impression was swayed by her inability to imagine any situation where someone might not want the dog to out.

I have been guilty of saying things like that myself..

I have said more than once, if a guy breaks in my house and is trying to assault of kill me, and the dog attacks him, I couldn't care less if the dog outs or not on command or not. An out would not be what I was worried about.

The dog I have now has a reasonable out, not 100% crisp and clean on every bite, but reasonable enough. If the dog was biting and fighting a violent person in the home, for real, who knoss if the dog would out, wont know unless that happens, all I can say is if the dog stays in the fight, that is far more important to me than if the dog outs really crisp on command.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Karen Havins said:


> I appreciate all the answers, seems like this gal was probably full of shit, but the good thing is that I learned some neat things on the thread!


she might not be full of shit, that the dog doesnt out when he is used for working, because it is not required for whoever is using him. She might be full of shit that the dog does that type of work though.

Find out, let us know...


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## julie allen (Dec 24, 2010)

Mark, Wth is a "crafty ***"??


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

julie allen said:


> Mark, Wth is a "crafty ***"??


"When ones sneaks off to have a cigarette unnoticed. Used especially when one is not supposed to be smoking but does anyway."

Nothing to do with sexual orientation ;-)


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## Keith Jenkins (Jun 6, 2007)

Everyone realizes the self restraint I'm using at this moment in time not to comment to that.... :-\" I mean you leave the candy on the table someone has got to take it...


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Thomas Barriano said:


> "When ones sneaks off to have a cigarette unnoticed. Used especially when one is not supposed to be smoking but does anyway."
> 
> Nothing to do with sexual orientation ;-)



Man your old! :lol:;-)

The term actually goes way back and it's original use is a small piece of smouldering wood on a fire. Something of that sort anyhow. 
I do remember being at my old aunts house as a kid when she would slip down in the cellar to "smoke a ***". :twisted:;-)


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> Man your old! :lol:;-)
> 
> The term actually goes way back and it's original use is a small piece of smouldering wood on a fire. Something of that sort anyhow.
> I do remember being at my old aunts house as a kid when she would slip down in the cellar to "smoke a ***". :twisted:;-)


Mark Horne is a Brit and the term "crafty ***" is current British Slang. Gotta love google ;-)

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1516089/Crafty-***-patient-is-burned-to-death.html

Don't smoke when you've just been treated with an inflammable gel


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## john axe (Sep 24, 2011)

All the full service dogs in the IL Dept of Corrections had a good out. i always stressed control, control , control. our unit was separate from the prisons. the handlers traveled to a different prison every day. i retired 5 years ago after 26 years most as head trainer. the new trainer was doing a excellent job. due to budget cuts the unit was shut down after 30 + years. have to remember, people like to talk about the dogs and sometimes the stories are out there. lol


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## Steve Estrada (Mar 6, 2011)

john axe said:


> All the full service dogs in the IL Dept of Corrections had a good out. i always stressed control, control , control. our unit was separate from the prisons. the handlers traveled to a different prison every day. i retired 5 years ago after 26 years most as head trainer. the new trainer was doing a excellent job. due to budget cuts the unit was shut down after 30 + years. have to remember, people like to talk about the dogs and sometimes the stories are out there. lol


Especially amongst PD's it's always mine is bigger & better. :lol:


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Steve Estrada said:


> Especially amongst PD's it's always mine is bigger & better. :lol:



It's quite impossible to narrow that down to any one group of trainers. :lol::lol:


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

I prefer smaller- medium dogs........


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