# Best Livestock Guardian Breed



## Guest (Jun 1, 2009)

To those of you on working farms, what breed would you use to live with and guard your livestock and why?

I have been looking into Livestock guardian breeds and they are all HUGE. Anyone know of a medium sized breed that is suited for this work? 

I am not interested in a pet dog, but a dog that will live with/ guard the livestock and poultry 24/7.


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## Paul Fox (May 25, 2009)

Well any of the big breeds with title 'shepherd' will do the job as originally they would protect as well as herd.

Same with the Rotti, originally a cattle hurding dog with great guaring skills.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

The Pyrenees may be without much question one of the best. They eat and sleep with the sheep. NO other dogs may enter into the livestock area while they are there. Anything that doesn't belong is subject to .....


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## Kayla Barth (Apr 18, 2009)

Also the Anatolian shepherd is a good one too. My aunt had a horrible problem with her chickens getting killed so she went a bought Great white Prynese and all chicken deaths stopped. You couldn't get the damn dog to do shit during the day...that was the boxers job...but during the night it was on!!!


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

The farm where we do our herding training has Italian Maremma and is a awesome livestock guardian. She is getting out of breeding them and has a few young adults for sale at this time. http://www.eweniquefarm.com/ 

They might be to big for what you described size wise but they will get the job done as a purposeful livestock guardian. 

http://www.thebreedsofdogs.com/MAREMMA_SHEEPDOG.htm


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

We have a lot of goat and sheep ranchers around here. Mostly they use donkeys. I know that doesn't answer the dog question, but it is what's used around here.

DFrost


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

David Frost said:


> We have a lot of goat and sheep ranchers around here. Mostly they use donkeys. I know that doesn't answer the dog question, but it is what's used around here.
> 
> DFrost


Up here I see lots of Alpacas as well not any donkeys though.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

My friend just got a Pyr puppy for a guardian. Donkeys and llamas are also used. I hear you on the size. I see the Pyr puppy weekly and I swear he has doubled in size. Some of he Italian breeds are smaller. I think the Mudi and the Bergamasco have been used in the guard function. Not that easy to come by though. I think I'm most comfortable with the Pyr because they have been used so widely and I think you can really get what you need. My first herding corgi was an awesome alert and guard dog. At times I had issues with possums. I could leave Rory out and he would always alert with a certain bark that they were around. The possums got smart and wouldn't come ground level. They would stay in the trees and along the top of the fence. For a few nights I had to leave Rory in the duck pen. Rory was always my awesome stock dog. Historically, corgis kept their stock in [non fenced areas] and anything else out. Its really funny when I bring home new ducks. They're the same breed and look alike but the dogs know there are invaders. My GSDs and my corgis that I've worked have a strong sense of guard and protect what's mine, including livestock. Any of them that I have trained to higher levels of work, I could leave them in a pen with stock and go off somewhere. Rory was a natural tending dog. He always kept the lambs in a certain part of the yard away from perimeter fences and gates. He didn't run borders. He basically staked out a section he was comfortable with and kept them there. The lambs would graze and he laid under his favorite tree and at times looked like he was sleeping. However, if the lambs strayed, he was up and would calmly put them back and go back to his tree. We used to sit in the window and watch him. 

Generally, before picking a breed you have to decide what the potential predator is. That will dictate size. Also with raising a puppy, you run into issues like Sandra's Pyr puppy wanting to play with the ducks. Sandra put him in with the ewes and lambs to try to curtail playing. He's very interesting to watch. He's six months old and even though he is respectful of the ewes, he will put the flock in a certain place and keep them there. Its as if he is thinking, okay they are safe here. He then takes up guard position at the opening of it. Again, its great TV to watch how he works. He also has a really sweet temperment. 

Terrasita


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Coyote/pit cross. this is the best, as the other coyote's fall for it, and then it is over, the pit in it goes hog wild and slaughters coyotes by the thousands. :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin:


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## Guest (Jun 1, 2009)

Yeah, we had a donkey a couple of years ago that started going buckwild on the goats. He was great with people but he was trying to kill the goats he was supposed to be guarding. We had to get rid of him. Alpacas are awesome but we have, since that time, discovered that in addition to the foxes, coyotes, hawks and wolves, HUMANS are messing with our livestock/ poultry, trespassing on or land, cutting down trees, stealing animals etc. LE can't really do anything unless we catch them in the act, (which we have done, (put 2 in prison) but things keep happening.) 

Since my wife and I can't be out with the animals 24/7. We have been thinking about a livestock guardian that will live with the goats and chickens and be able to at least put some fear into something and someONE intent on doing the livestock harm. A guardian breed sounds great until I think about the fact that I will be worrying about the dog and probably end up sitting out in the barn with him all night anyways. :?: 

Also, we are in NY state so we need a dog that can handle the cold of winter. A GSD or Rottie isn't built for that kind of exposure and they are people oriented dogs that tend to thrive as part of the household. As foreign as the concept is to me, this dog won't be a house dog, so I was thinking of a true livestock guardian breed like the AS, Kangal, GP etc., not a herder. I guess I just need to look for a smaller dog in that category. 

I'll check out "ewenique" Thanks!


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Vin Chiu said:


> Yeah, we had a donkey a couple of years ago that started going buckwild on the goats. He was great with people but he was trying to kill the goats he was supposed to be guarding. !


That's unusual for donkeys, but for certain, you sure can't keep them after that. There was a time when a dog would start to attack the sheep, it was shot. Of course we wouldn't do that in our politically correct world. I pretty much believe in the old saying; You can't break and egg sucking dog.

DFrost


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## Guest (Jun 1, 2009)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Coyote/pit cross. this is the best, as the other coyote's fall for it, and then it is over, the pit in it goes hog wild and slaughters coyotes by the thousands. :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin:


LOL


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## Guest (Jun 1, 2009)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> My friend just got a Pyr puppy for a guardian. Donkeys and llamas are also used. I hear you on the size. I see the Pyr puppy weekly and I swear he has doubled in size. Some of he Italian breeds are smaller. I think the Mudi and the Bergamasco have been used in the guard function. Not that easy to come by though. I think I'm most comfortable with the Pyr because they have been used so widely and I think you can really get what you need. My first herding corgi was an awesome alert and guard dog. At times I had issues with possums. I could leave Rory out and he would always alert with a certain bark that they were around. The possums got smart and wouldn't come ground level. They would stay in the trees and along the top of the fence. For a few nights I had to leave Rory in the duck pen. Rory was always my awesome stock dog. Historically, corgis kept their stock in [non fenced areas] and anything else out. Its really funny when I bring home new ducks. They're the same breed and look alike but the dogs know there are invaders. My GSDs and my corgis that I've worked have a strong sense of guard and protect what's mine, including livestock. Any of them that I have trained to higher levels of work, I could leave them in a pen with stock and go off somewhere. Rory was a natural tending dog. He always kept the lambs in a certain part of the yard away from perimeter fences and gates. He didn't run borders. He basically staked out a section he was comfortable with and kept them there. The lambs would graze and he laid under his favorite tree and at times looked like he was sleeping. However, if the lambs strayed, he was up and would calmly put them back and go back to his tree. We used to sit in the window and watch him.
> 
> Generally, before picking a breed you have to decide what the potential predator is. That will dictate size. Also with raising a puppy, you run into issues like Sandra's Pyr puppy wanting to play with the ducks. Sandra put him in with the ewes and lambs to try to curtail playing. He's very interesting to watch. He's six months old and even though he is respectful of the ewes, he will put the flock in a certain place and keep them there. Its as if he is thinking, okay they are safe here. He then takes up guard position at the opening of it. Again, its great TV to watch how he works. He also has a really sweet temperment.
> 
> Terrasita


Thanks for the great post! As you will see, humans are one of the most offending predators here, so a corgi might not be my first choice, but I've always loved the breed, so I'll keep it in mind


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I think the system that the Maremma Abruzzen dogs have been put through is terrific. I heard once that people wanted to use them as Schutzhunde and am glad it didn't take on. Although it could have caused commotion. A good Schutzhund herding dog can be a good "Schutzhund".

David, I think that the donkey, although it can put fear into some animals, would have trouble following the sheep, fences, etc. and could easily become a victim , wolves, etc.

When I read about the Pyrennean Mountain Dogs, I think of the show dogs the've made of them here and cringe, the same with the Berger de Brie (Briard). I had one I took to IPO 3 but his "staring" and wanting to attack anything that wasn't a dog was strong, although relatively easy to control - replacement therapy, decoy instead of horses, cows, sheep, etc.

In our regions, the Bergamasker is often to be seen accompanying the Shepherd on his travels and the donkey carries his blankets, food, etc.

They pass by us once or twice a year and I love to watch them. My dogs have their noses in their air for what they leave behind so I avoid the forests for a day or two.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Vin Chiu said:


> Also, we are in NY state so we need a dog that can handle the cold of winter.
> 
> I'll check out "ewenique" Thanks!


Natalie's Maremmas are outside all the time and live with her sheep. We are less than 5 hours North of Ithaca. They are pretty darn serious dogs Vin, they look like big purdy Goldens but oh boy .. they sure are not. They will take care of 'all' predators 4 legged and 2. :wink:


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## Tammy McDowell (Dec 4, 2006)

I went to a herding seminar with a friend. The lady who held the seminar at her place had (if I remember correctly) Akbash's. Looked somewhat similar to a pyr. The dogs were chained up while we were there but none to happy to have us on their property at all.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Vin I've had some great corgis. It does get harder and harder though to find the read deal. If you have people involved I might check out the Anatolian or maybe the Kuvasz. I'm a little rusty on my LGD stuff. There is a site I ran across years ago that was totally dedicated to the different LGD breeds. The Pyrs are sweet and make noise I guess but I'll have see more of Sandra's to see if they really impress me as the take it to the matresses type. I think its that reliability of leaving them with the flock that you have to do the most research about. The Pyr seems to have the best reputation for that. I think Jeff's new LGD breed is pretty funny. Sandra has had an occasional problem with foxes but the big problem is neighboring dogs running her stock. David she's not real confident in her shooting abiities, or else there's a certain rottie that would be 6 feet under. He's gotten a couple of her ewes. A couple of weeks ago he got in but didn't do a lot of damage and she says the puppy rose to the occasion.

Terrasita


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I've also been watching the Pyr pup that Terrasita is talking about. Still a young pup but I like what I see with the relationship between the dog and sheep. it wa s bit to playfull with the ducks but the ewes have kept it in line with the lambs.
I hunted with my terriers at a farm that had a donkey as a sheep guardian. Woulda paid good money to see the coyote that took on that onry little bassid. Damn near ate a couple of the terriers. The farmer said he hadn't lost one lamb to coyotes in the two yrs since he got the donkey.
Jeff, I understand the attraction to the coyote cause you got Mals :-o but when did you become a bulldawg man? :lol: :lol:


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I really liked training pit bulls when I was younger. THey are fun as hell and really quick to learn. I DO not like them used for bitework, but that is my opinion. I have worked a bulldog and a pit that were training for MR. I have no problems helping out, but my opinion will not change with the APBT.

I really like the personality of the AB. They are big and clunky and have lots of personality, and I do like the breed.

In the 80's I watched the Rott get popular, and turn into a different dog than what I knew them to be. Since people do not learn from history, I try and show that the BS they are spreading is EXACTLY what it is, BS.

The same sort of mythical crap surrounded the Rott. The AB is a heartbreaker in the bite sports most of the time. There are a few that are out there doing their thing in sports, and I wish the people trialing them the best of luck always. Just because my opinion is different, does not mean that if you are working your ass off to accomplish something, I would not recognize the hard work and good training.

I just like stomping all over the egos of the spreaders of the BS. If they were more realistic, not unlike the Dobermann people, who are happy with the stuffed toys they are producing, and believing in the mythology, then the AB might have a chance to do better at sport.

But NOOOOOOoooooooo, instead of focusing on what is important, they just keep crossing in this breed and that breed and more whatnot, and have a few F1's that do better, but then back to the same thing.

Kind of like the Donovan Pincher. LOL


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Kind of like the Donovan Pincher. LOL


I have to agree with that. I was not impressed.

DFrost


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

I have a friend that raises sheep, cattle and horses. He has an Akbash for predator control. Foxes, coyotes, and wolves are common in the area he lives in and bears also, as he is not far from the local dump. Last summer he added a second Akbash after seeing his dog almost get taken out by wolves during the winter.

Neat dog. When I first saw him, he was a half grown pup and seemed really spooky. Last time I saw him, he had really come into his own and was doing his job. Definitely aloof, but no longer untouchable and stayed close to my friend and I while I got the tour of the farm. 

Surprisingly athletic for such a big lumbering dog - I watched him fly across a field and clear a fence with effortless grace to go check something out. 

Size matters. A smaller dog just wouldn't be able to take on the predators that this dog can.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

In my area the breed of choice for sheep and goats is the Great Pyrenese by an overwhelming number. I actually went to a local farm this afternoon who has two and the big male was pretty serious about not letting me in the barn lot to visit the farmer who was bottle feeding a newborn calf.
We have a big problems with Coyotes here, but nothing else really bothers our livestock. The Great Pyrenese works good here for the local farmers.


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## Craig Wood (Dec 9, 2008)

Gillian Schuler said:


> David, I think that the donkey, although it can put fear into some animals, would have trouble following the sheep, fences, etc. and could easily become a victim , wolves, etc..


This may change your mind
http://www.doesntsuck.com/archives/002310.html


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

that vid's been around for a few years, and there's some controversy about it--seems the cougar may have already been dead when the photo's were shot.

at any rate, i would go with a donkey any day--they will kill (or at least give it a damn good try) anything messing with the herd. i think you may've gotten an aberrant donkey if it was trying to kill the goats. at any rate, the down-side is, i don't think they'll take on a human that's poaching.

i have nothing else to add....


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

The good thing is, we don't have wolves, just lots of coyotes and stray dogs. I've seen donkeys run off dogs, there isn't any quit in them. I know the neighbors sure aren't missing any goats or sheep. 

DFrost


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## Twila Leierer (Jun 2, 2009)

We've had a Great Pyr x possible Anatolian for a couple of years. She's awesome at night, but unless the other dogs bark during the day, she snoozes. Whenever we have people over with other dogs to train dogs on herding sheep, she has to be put somewhere secure. She doesn't mind our dogs but she won't allow outside dogs to mess with her sheep.


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## Guest (Jun 4, 2009)

The Akbash seems like a cool dog. Cute, like a big ole protective Lab. GP seems to the breed of choice. Still doing my research but this thread has been helpful. We had 2 gorgeous stray Dobes come make a ruckus on the farm yesterday morning. Good thing we spotted them before they got at the goats and chickens, but they seemed pretty respectful of the fences. We tried to coax them in to us, but they were so aloof and having too much fun to be bothered by humans. We trailed them through our property and eventually corralled them away from our grumpy old gun slinging farmer neighbors cows and they disappeared. Makes me even more aware that a good livestock guardian would be a nice addition.


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

Here is a much smaller breed of dog that can be shown any job a thinker like a GSD, able to make decisions on their own and not above biting a person to keep the job done. At least mine wasn't. Love, love, love the breed and hope to have more someday. They are not registerable, so not corrupted by $ hungry breeders as of yet. Mine went with me everywhere, protected me and seemed to train herself. I had rabbits and chickens and this dog was safe to be on the ground with them and fierce enough to protect them, herdy enough to keep them where they needed to be even outside of our property. Probably not a good defence against wolves but anything else it can handle. Very tough, healthy dogs. We weren't big on vets back then but I don't recall her every being sick until she got cancer at 13.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_Shepherd


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## Meena Moitra (Jul 11, 2008)

Akbash.
A dear friend of mine who is big on the herding group found the instincts and primal nature of his Akbash to be incredible. I met Blanche and although large, not huge. She would only eat food on the ground, went a dug holes to sleep in, when given choices. Very protective and aloof. Certainly a dog bred to do one thing, protect the flock.
Read up on them, think you'll be very impressed. I don't know where Blanche came from but it was in the USA.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Michelle Kehoe said:


> Here is a much smaller breed of dog that can be shown any job a thinker like a GSD, able to make decisions on their own and not above biting a person to keep the job done. At least mine wasn't. Love, love, love the breed and hope to have more someday. They are not registerable, so not corrupted by $ hungry breeders as of yet. Mine went with me everywhere, protected me and seemed to train herself. I had rabbits and chickens and this dog was safe to be on the ground with them and fierce enough to protect them, herdy enough to keep them where they needed to be even outside of our property. Probably not a good defence against wolves but anything else it can handle. Very tough, healthy dogs. We weren't big on vets back then but I don't recall her every being sick until she got cancer at 13.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_Shepherd


As the article stated the English Shepherd is also reffered to as an old fashon farm collie. They weren't an uncommon dog when I was a kid. We just called them drop eared farm collies.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

From my understanding the Akbash is just a white Anatolian.


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## Meena Moitra (Jul 11, 2008)

No, although both are Turkish guardian dogs, they are different. Check them out... Quite fascinating. 
The Akbash is a very primitve/primal dog and very good at doing what it was bred to do.
The whole thing about slicing the ears off and the badge of honor, the wolf collar, is intense stuff - for this American in Napa Valley. But if a person wants a dog to keep the flock safe against pressures of nature, way to go.


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> As the article stated the English Shepherd is also reffered to as an old fashon farm collie. They weren't an uncommon dog when I was a kid. We just called them drop eared farm collies.


Guess the sought after AKC reg by most folks has practicly dropped them off the earth these days. I hear most breeders have waiting lists a mile long.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Craig Wood said:


> This may change your mind
> http://www.doesntsuck.com/archives/002310.html


 
Sure did, our donkeys wouldn't be able to frighten a poodle!


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## David Scholes (Jul 12, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> From my understanding the Akbash is just a white Anatolian.


I believe you are essentially correct. I used to own an Anatolian so read up on them extensively. The Turks didn't breed for color (other than what would blend with the livestock) and there is a lot of variation in appearance of the Turkish guardians.

Western importers just picked the look and type they liked and labeled the white ones Akbash and the colored ones Anatolian. They created their standards and registered as different breeds.


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## David Scholes (Jul 12, 2008)

Meena Moitra said:


> No, although both are Turkish guardian dogs, they are different. Check them out... Quite fascinating.
> The Akbash is a very primitve/primal dog and very good at doing what it was bred to do.
> The whole thing about slicing the ears off and the badge of honor, the wolf collar, is intense stuff - for this American in Napa Valley. But if a person wants a dog to keep the flock safe against pressures of nature, way to go.


I've seen photos of fawn colored turkish (or nearby country) dogs looking very much like my anatolian except with the sliced ears and wolf collar. (somebody posted / linked them on this site about 6 months ago, I think with Saluki pics). From my experience an anatolian can be VERY primitive/primal and have a mind of their own yet very protective and gentle with the young livestock. However, if a young one dies they are lunch.


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## Connie Losee (Sep 16, 2009)

I would think some of the genuine livestock guardian breeds like a Pyranese could handle your cold. There are even some that are fuzzier. There is some mountain breed that looks like a gigantic pomeranian, it is so long-haired and fuzzy and it's supposed to be awesome as a guardian.

We plan to provide a movable shelter for the dog out with the livestock for rain/sun protection, but we understand the dog will probably ignore it and sleep on the ground anyway.

Connie


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## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

Isnt a Queensland supposed to be one of the best, and medium sized like he was looking for?





Also, with all the huge dogs mentioned, did anyone bring up a caucasian (or central asian) ovtcharka?


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## Sarah ten Bensel (Mar 16, 2008)

I know of two shepherders here. One has Akbash that are very serious, very serious. The other had Kuvaszk. Didn't these huge flock guarders work in tandem with the smaller herding dogs. I think I heard the Pyrennes Shepherd worked closely with the Great Pyr to move and protect the flock.


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## Maddy Freemont (Sep 16, 2009)

Geez, guys, is there some reason why the GSD is NOT a serious contender here? I know NY is cold but isn't the GSD built to take that on as well? The double coat... and so on.

?


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## Adi Ibrahimbegovic (Nov 21, 2008)

Fromyour original postand stating what you want, this dog might fit the bill: http://www.bhtornjak.com/en/ 

Bosnian Tornjak, a great watchdog and a livestock guardian, with calm, confident and even demeanor. A very sturdy built and strong dog.

Growing up there, I have never seen a fight, but I have seen bloody wolf corpses laying in the snow in the morning that the dog supposedlygot in fight with and killed.

The downfall is he is kind of a bigger dog, maybe 130-140 lbs,but he doesn't eat much and requires very little maintenance.

He is very trainable, but is a one trick pony - train to watch sheep and livestock, be a guard and alert dog on the farm... but that is it, from what I remember.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Maddy Freemont said:


> Geez, guys, is there some reason why the GSD is NOT a serious contender here? I know NY is cold but isn't the GSD built to take that on as well? The double coat... and so on.
> 
> ?


I would think it's because there is a world of difference in the job descriptions between livestock guardians and herders.


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

I wouldn't use whatever breed these MT ranchers had, before the wolves killed them. They lost 26 sheep in July, and another 120 in August!!
http://www.mtstandard.com/articles/2009/08/28/area/hjjajbhchghbjc.txt

I don't think it matters what breed you have, unless there's a lot of them. Because several, or thirty wolves in a given pack is always going to have the upper hand.

Also, the right genetics, conditioning, and training would go a long way for an _effective_ livestock guardian, no matter the breed.



> Dogs are normally fearful of wolves. Both James Rennie and Theodore Roosevelt wrote how even dogs which enthusiastically confront bears and large cats will hesitate to approach wolves. [10][8] According to the Encyclopédie, dogs used in a wolf hunt are typically veteran animals, as younger hunting dogs would be intimidated by the wolf's scent. [4] However, dogs can be taught to overcome their fear if habituated to it at an early age. As pups, Russian wolfhounds are sometimes introduced to captured live wolves, and are trained to grab them behind the ears in order to avoid being injured by the wolf’s teeth.[11] A similar practise was recorded in the USA by John James Audubon, who wrote how wolves caught in a pit trap would be hamstrung and given to a dog pack in order to condition the dogs into losing their fear.[12]
> 
> Dogs typically do not readily eat wolf curée (entrails). The Encyclopédie specifies that the curée had to be prepared in a special way in order for the dogs to accept it. The carcass would be skinned, gutted and decapitated, with the entrails placed in an oven. After roasting, the entrails would be mixed with breadcrumbs and placed in a cauldron of boiling water. In winter, they would then be mixed with 3-4 lbs of fat, while in summer, two or three bucketloads of milk and flour was applied. After soaking, the entrails would be placed on a sheet of cloth and taken to the dogs whilst still warm.[4]
> 
> ~wikipedia


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## Brad Anderson (Nov 29, 2008)

The Sarplaninac is a great guardian, a great LGD, and tends to be a little smaller than many of the LGD. they are also fit for NY winters...










http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/sarplaninac.htm

Wikipedia says they should be 30" and above, but that is not my understanding of the size of the breed (and its not what the link above states), but I could be incorrect.

Kennels...

http://www.sharakennel.net/index.html
http://www.sharplaninec.com/

----


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## Adi Ibrahimbegovic (Nov 21, 2008)

Yes, that is true. Sarplaninac is very much a "cousin" of Bosnian Tornjak, as they are in the vicinity and same geographic region, Balkans, maybe 300 or 400 miles apart. They are good dogs.



Brad Anderson said:


> The Sarplaninac is a great guardian, a great LGD, and tends to be a little smaller than many of the LGD. they are also fit for NY winters...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Maddy Freemont (Sep 16, 2009)

susan tuck said:


> I would think it's because there is a world of difference in the job descriptions between livestock guardians and herders.


 
Yep, there is... but the GSD is a "shepherd" dog and not a "herding" dog precisely because it was meant to PROTECT as well as DIRECT livestock- even in the absence of human beings. This mandate was the very essence of the breed.

(It just turned out that the GSD was very good at other tasks and was whisked into military and police work in short order and then for seeing eye dogs... and the rest is history.)

As for size, the GSD has become "Americanized" (i.e. super-sized) but the original breed standard was 60-70lbs for the female and 75-85lbs for the male. It is still possible to obtain GSDs in this size range. They have great lung capacity and can range for extensive distances every day. They are crazily protective and vicious. They naturally herd. Their coats are such that they are meant to live outdoors with a basic shelter for night in the extremes of winter. They can be taught to keep livestock within certain boundaries in the absence of fencing. 

I defer to the perhaps more experienced handlers on this forum; I am curious why the GSD hasn't been forwarded on this thread...


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Maddy,

GSDs probably haven't been mentioned because of the jack of all trades aspects. The traditional LGD has no other function and lives with the flock. You don't hear as much about the GSD engaging in fights with other animals. Having raised/trained two GSDs with livestock, I can tell you that they do have instinctual guard and like an LGD if you leave them with the flock they will contain them in a cerain place and certainly wouldn't allow someone to walk off with one. I had a corgi that was the same way. I could leave him with sheep and he would keep them in a certain place. It was amazing how he naturally kept them away from gates and the perimeter fencing. Corgis historically kept their stock in and others out. Rory always alerted to what he considered a predator and would for sure take something on in defense of what he was guarding. The thing about the GSD and corgi is that I think the guard is an extension of their relationship with me. They guard what is mine until I return whether its livestock, my kid, house car or just an object with my scent. Traditionally, the LGDs didn't have as much of a relationship with the humans. Most people say that if you don't raise them as a part of the flock then you lose the guard. That's not true of a GSD. 

Terrasita


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Maddy Freemont said:


> Yep, there is... but the GSD is a "shepherd" dog and not a "herding" dog precisely because it was meant to PROTECT as well as DIRECT livestock- even in the absence of human beings. This mandate was the very essence of the breed.
> 
> (It just turned out that the GSD was very good at other tasks and was whisked into military and police work in short order and then for seeing eye dogs... and the rest is history.)
> 
> ...


Pretty much all of us GSD people who frequent this board either imported their working line dogs, bought from those who breed European working line dogs, or are European working line GSD breeders, so you are preaching to the choir with regards to what a GSD is supposed to look like and do.

Do you know of anyone using GSDs as Livestock Guardians?

Very early on in the developement of the breed Stephanitz convinced PDs and the military to use the GSD because he realized farming/ranching was on the decline which he felt would have otherwise led to the extinction of the breed.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I would be curious if the GSDs instinct to control the flock might overcome the desire to control the preditor if the human shepherd was present. 
Preditor panics the stock, GSD goes into herding drive unless it has a scent or visual with the preditor. 
The LGD is more apt to respond to the cause of the panic.
example;
The farm I train herding at has a Great Pyr as a LGD. He was in the large duck pen last Sunday. The ducks started squawking and the dog ran by them and went to the fence the ducks were facing. 
This falls in place with what Terrasita commented on about the GSD having more of a connection with people. This Pyr is "ok" with people but has already proven himself by keeping the local Rotty and it's pack from messing anymore with the sheep and no more ducks lost to fox.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Plus don't most of the Livestock Guardian breeds have very low prey drive? Our working line GSDs are specifically bred for high prey drives, which I think might be a problem.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

UUhhhhhh, I think the GSD will go for the predator and even more so if I'm there. Teva for sure was always guarding whatever stock I left her with and wouldn't let another dog near them. We never encountered any other type of predator for me to see how she would respond. Remember the old HGH had a protection phase. What if the shepherd was attacked for his purse. Even with sheep present, Teva--GSD was going to look out after me. Rory taught me this early on. When I first started him, he could never be lose with a flock, else he would go into prey drive. So one day I walk through with my two year old and with Rory on a line. There might have been maybe 40 sheep off at a distance feeding. We walked past at an angle toward the gate. Outta nowhere, a ewe decided that she would make it for the same gate running dead straight toward my son. Reaching for my son I had dropped Rory's line and thought, oh hell, he's gonna run sheep all over. Boy was I wrong. He took a flying leap at the ewe gripping at the neck and hanging on for a few seconds. When he came off and hit the ground the ewe ran back to the flock and he stood between them and me and the kid. He then called off. This was the day that I decided that he wasn't just cute. He was a "real" dog; i.e. GSD-like. Defense of the handler, for sure will over ride the desire to move livestock function. A judge told me that she was a little apprehensive about her first judging assignment for the GSDCA. She had never seen police dogs work. She said she came away with a new respect for the breed. She said what was obvious was how the GSD was ALWAYS trying to take care of his handler. 

One of the things that concerns me is whether in the name of sport and so much emphasis on prey and more is better that we are losing some of the innate guard traits.

Terrasita


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> UUhhhhhh, I think the GSD will go for the predator and even more so if I'm there. Teva for sure was always guarding whatever stock I left her with and wouldn't let another dog near them. We never encountered any other type of predator for me to see how she would respond. Remember the old HGH had a protection phase. What if the shepherd was attacked for his purse. Even with sheep present, Teva--GSD was going to look out after me. Rory taught me this early on. When I first started him, he could never be lose with a flock, else he would go into prey drive. So one day I walk through with my two year old and with Rory on a line. There might have been maybe 40 sheep off at a distance feeding. We walked past at an angle toward the gate. Outta nowhere, a ewe decided that she would make it for the same gate running dead straight toward my son. Reaching for my son I had dropped Rory's line and thought, oh hell, he's gonna run sheep all over. Boy was I wrong. He took a flying leap at the ewe gripping at the neck and hanging on for a few seconds. When he came off and hit the ground the ewe ran back to the flock and he stood between them and me and the kid. He then called off. This was the day that I decided that he wasn't just cute. He was a "real" dog; i.e. GSD-like. Defense of the handler, for sure will over ride the desire to move livestock function. A judge told me that she was a little apprehensive about her first judging assignment for the GSDCA. She had never seen police dogs work. She said she came away with a new respect for the breed. She said what was obvious was how the GSD was ALWAYS trying to take care of his handler.
> 
> One of the things that concerns me is whether in the name of sport and so much emphasis on prey and more is better that we are losing some of the innate guard traits.
> 
> Terrasita


That's the shepherd being attacked for his purse and the ewe comming after you and your son. 
Without a connection to the stock in the same manner as has the LGD, would you expect the same results? They prey in the GSD may also carry it to far away from the flock as opposed to the LGD sticking with the flock. 
Interesting thoughts!
Besides! If I start carrying a purse...well...Thunder would probably bite me himself!


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Actually, yes. Remember what I've said about the object guard. Its instinct. I've left dogs [GSD and corgi] ALONE with the stock. They contain them the same way the LGD does. Watch the Pyr Thunderfoot. When he's worried, he will contain them where he is guarding the opening. The sheep can't leave unless they get past him and nothing can get to the sheep unless they get past him first. Its the same with a GSD or my corgi for that matter. Remember, if its the dog's flock, prey drive really isn't part of the equation. Its not about "prey" with the stock dog. Its about control. The dog with his OWN flock has control. Everyone knows everyone and each has its respective role. The dog has CONTROL of the flock---mental as well as physical. There is a working relationship. When you are training on someone else's sheep or at a trial, the dog does not have that relationship with the stock and has to try to get it. Its a total different ball game. This is why I say trialing really isn't an accurate test. You are missing one important factor---the dog's working relationship with the stock. Although prey is an element of the herding function, there are others and those others will overide prey for the sake of prey. If you have prey drive overriding guard, then you have to ask yourself whether you have gone overboard in the prey drive department. Again, this is my concern with so much emphasis on prey. For instance, my most prey triggered dog has no sense of guarding them and I wouldn't think of leaving her with stock at this stage of the game, although as she matures, it seems to be getting better. She does guard me however so she's forgiven. 

For me the difference with the LGD is that it is not a jack of all trades. As was stated before, the GSD is also a herder. It can gather and otherwise control movement of the stock and with a working relationship with his handler. Also different from the LGD, I think the GSD has a social need to be with and work with his handler. For the LGDs and what I've read about them, I was most comfortable with the Pyr because it seemed to be the most amenable to having a relationship with [albeit limited] with a person, yet just as flock devoted. There was also tons more written about the Pyr.

Terrasita


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Well said!
I do remember Thunderfoot (Pyr) the day we watched him keep the sheep in that one corner. Any attempt they tried to walk off and a simple step in their direction from Thunderfoot and all was calm again. He was definately containing them as opposed to just guarding them.
I again bow to my mentor! :-D :wink:


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

What I wonder, is if a LGB can work as a team with another, herding dog such as a BC, without attempting to defend the flock from the herder's presence?


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## Brad Anderson (Nov 29, 2008)

Daryl Ehret said:


> What I wonder, is if a LGB can work as a team with another, herding dog such as a BC, without attempting to defend the flock from the herder's presence?


As long as the LGD see the BC as part of their "family" or "flock" I don't think there would be an issue.

It is an interesting question tho, especially when you consider BCs use FAPs and Predatory Sequences to mimic the movement of a predator, which basically scares the livestock away from them (and in the direction the BC is moving them). This (Predatory Sequences) is one of the things LGD naturally watch for and react to (and LGD have been bred away from this behavior), so it's an interesting equation when you combine the 2.

Here on our ranch I have noticed our LGD scent things more than anything, they notice a threat by it's smell long before the other dogs do (excluding one of our Shikoku Ken who is an amazing predator). So, I would bet that they would not react (aggressively) toward the BC even when it is in a FAP as the LGD would not have been alerted of a different smell.

This becomes particularly obvious with raptor, many times our hunting breeds (Shikoku Ken and Kai Ken) will see an Eagle or Hawk a good 30 seconds before our LGD do - but our LGD react to the other dogs interest in the bird and so move to investigate. So that brings up another question, would the movement on the flock caused by a BC put the LGD on alert and create an issue?

(I am not a sheep owner so I really have no idea, do sheep farmers/ranchers remove their LGD when the BC are out?)

A few times I have seen Blue, our Cane Corso, go into a herding/stalking behavior toward a rabbit (or other animal) while the LGD are out there - which is a very similar pattern the BC uses for herding - and the LGD just ignore him. They are incredibly in-tuned to their surroundings.

----

As for the GSD, I don't own one and never have, but I know a lot about the Cane Corso and dogs like the KBD (Karelian Bear Dog). Both breeds have large prey drives (the KBD has a HUGE prey drive) and both breeds have been used in a "farm dog" role in the past - with one of those roles being to protect live stock. Knowing that, and knowing how trainable and smart the GSD is, I am sure they would work as an LGD if trained properly.

I wonder if they would be as protective as a Mastiff breed tho (or a molosser-type breed)? I am sure GSD can be very protective, but I wonder if they are as dedicated to it as a Mastiff or LGD - I mean our LGD and CC are really into guarding things - they LOVE to guard. Our CO seem to get a "high" off protecting our property.

Do you think a GSD get this type of pleasure from guarding?

----


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

Guarding property and person, yes. Livestock, I've not had the opportunity to experience. They definitely can get a high from keeping the livestock in orderly fashion, however.


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## Adi Ibrahimbegovic (Nov 21, 2008)

Yeah, get a "man purse" , like real men do... Ha ha ha. Or, one of those dorky clip on belts around the waist, like Pat from SNL...



Bob Scott said:


> Besides! If I start carrying a purse...well...Thunder would probably bite me himself!


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## Guest (Oct 23, 2009)

Sarplaninacs seem like an interesting dog. I like. 

I wouldn't put a GSD through NY winters. We're not antarctica, but the working GSDs I've seen get very cold when wet in winter temps. When they are working they are fine, but once they load int the truck they're shivering like crazy. I can't put a dog through that. It will have a nice spot in the barn and run-ins of course, but it will still need to be very weather resistant. I think we'll wait out this winter and introduce a LGD in the spring.


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## Maddy Freemont (Sep 16, 2009)

All really good input on the GSD angle, guys. I love it!!!


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

I was discussing yesterday, the Komondor, where an older couple had attained theirs from the U.S. Sheep Breeding Experiment station at Duboise, ID.

They mentioned how the government run program was specifically attempting to isolate a strain that were defensive of the livestock toward predators, but would stay with the stock, rather than persue the predator, leaving the flock unguarded. To test this, they would release coyotes (which they also bred) into the large fenced grazing area, with the sheep and the dogs. Also interesting, the Komondor pups were grown with the flock and nursed on the ewes.

Every breed I suppose could be further divided and selected for it's specialized talents and characteristics within the breed. For example, some gsd's are good for this or that, but not the other, and so on. "Specialized breeding" is great for achieving consistent results that excell in a particular line of work, but sometimes loss of important traits can occur with overselection.

I also inquired further about mixing breeds to work cooperatively together, and the Komondor worked well with their black & white border collies (whom they viewed as part of their flock). They would be in the middle of the group of sheep, and be stirred with the group in the direction as the border collie would direct. But, if they were to put another unknown black & white dog at the helm, the Komondor would instantly know it was a strange dog, and not allow it near the flock.

GSD's can appearantly be protective of their flocks (depends on the dog), and might be a good all-round choice for a dog that can herd, tend, and protect the flock, without involving multiple dogs of differing breeds.


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## Christopher Fox (Dec 24, 2009)

> I have been looking into Livestock guardian breeds and they are all HUGE. Anyone know of a medium sized breed that is suited for this work?


Know of any medium size dogs you would put your money on against a wolf? Even one those smaller European ones? How about a medium sized dog against a big coyote? I haven't looked, so I do not know if any breeders have been working on creating a mid size LGD, but LGD's are not new dogs. Been around centuries. Point being, they _had_ to big, else one would lose their sheep to wolves, bears, feral dog packs and humans.

Don't send a boy to do a man's job and don't send a terrier sized dog, despite their courage, to do a mastiff sized dogs job.

What are you guarding against? Coyotes are very capable of killing a mid sized dog.

Where are you at? I know for a _fact_ wolves have been as far south in Colorado as I-70 for a few years now, and I would bet there are a few already in the Weiminuche, or real close. If you are in the Rocky Mountains region, you need a mastiff sized dog.

I grew up around a Pyr and now have a great 10 y.o. knucklehead who was the result of the forbidden ranch love between a Pyr and a Border Collie, all working lines in both dogs. First, I will say, that just like with any working dog, a _real_ Pyr is not what one usually sees after decades of AKC ruin. Big dogs, but atheltic and relatively long lived and healthy.

Secondly, I think there is more than one breed that fills this role, but they are all pretty much the same, from the Pyrenees Mountains to Turkey. Maybe some differecnes on personality, but not drastically different ones, and they are all going to be about the same size and mastiff derivatives. All depends upon the size of the local predators.

But, I vote the Pyr, one of the reasons being is you will probably have an easier time finding more reputable and established breeders. Another reason is that although I am sure other LGD's might exhibit the same tendancies, but a good Pyr is one of the most nocturnal dogs around - no good to be sleeping when the predators are working, eh?

I can verify this from experience as well as all pretenses of the Border Collie in my dog disappear at night. He turns into a different dog, his demeanor much more serious and his focus defintiely shifts from the things around him that are normal and common (me, other dogs, etc.) to those that are external - he is actively looking for threats at night. And *The Barking* begins. Hours of it at times, depending upon what he hears, and Pyrs hear *alot*.

LGD's are big. They need to be. They are also healthy and athletic for their size. They also tend to eat less, pound for pound. A working husky needs a whole bunch more food, pound for pound for sure, then does a Pyr. Probably not just pound for pound either. In my book, a good LGD is _very_ territorial, nocturnal, noisy, hairy (preferably with some mats for protection around the neck), cannot be housed with another intact male LGD, doesn't give two shits, in general, about people (the owner people, meaning their lives are not any less fullfilled if you are not around). And yes, it has to be big enough to kill a coyote, which needs a mastiff to avoid serious injury.

Don't expect to do much obedience training on an LGD. Let me rephrase that, you can spend all the time you want trying to obedience train a LGD, but there is a point of diminishing returns where you start wasting your time. Also, don't expect an intact male LGD to hang out in a small fenced in area, and don't think a 6' will stop a 100#+ LGD.

Find a good working Pyr breeder, follow their advice to a tee on how to actually make it an LGD when you get it back and go to sleep at night to the soothing barks of your pyr.


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

My aunt and uncle own a Pyr, but it was hit by a car and had to have surgery on it's legs, so I don't know what it's natural speed can be. Is a Pyr fast enough to contend with wolves?


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## eric squires (Oct 16, 2008)

I had a Maremma for years with the last flock of sheep. He was a super dog. Very protective of the all the livestock and property. He was so devoted that when i sold the flock i made sure the buyers took the dog with them. The farm was in an area with a high bear and coyote population and i never had a problem with predation. He also saved many lambs at birth by licking and cleaning them as the mothers had their next lambs. I lambed outside in WV in Jan and never lost lambs to the elements. I also worked border collies on the flock while he was guarding and had no problems with him understanding that it was ok. I would recommend one and will have another again when i have livestock.


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## Katalin Bodzsár (Nov 18, 2009)

I planning to keep sheep in the future, for guardian I think I will choose Kuvasz. They are excellent guardian dog and for me they got good character, not agressive killers like Kangals... But for me the show-style is not Kuvasz! this is real kuvasz:








Here the wolves are realy rare, illegal hunters shot them. The dog need to protect the folk from human... Since we was with my Beauce on a herding camp in a conservation area, we slept in tents not too far from the sheep, in the morning we heard strange noises, and when we went to look we found a sheep head and near to they shed the sheep's bowels... no comment...


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

Vin Chiu said:


> Sarplaninacs seem like an interesting dog. I like.
> 
> I wouldn't put a GSD through NY winters. We're not antarctica, but the working GSDs I've seen get very cold when wet in winter temps. When they are working they are fine, but once they load int the truck they're shivering like crazy. I can't put a dog through that. It will have a nice spot in the barn and run-ins of course, but it will still need to be very weather resistant. I think we'll wait out this winter and introduce a LGD in the spring.


I used to live in upstate New York a long time ago. I company I worked for at the time used attack trained german shepherds to guard the premises at night. They slept in kennels during the day but they had no problems with the cold.


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## Carlos Machado (Dec 28, 2008)

The Cao de Fila de Sao Miguel (Saint Miguel dog F.C.I.)(Azores cattle dog) can handle the cold and have been used as livestock guardians for more than 500 years uninterrupted with the added bonus of also herding very well and guarding anything 19 to 24inch 60 to 90LB. They are descendant from an old Portugese LGD the Rafeiro do Alentejo (Alentejo Shepherd dog) similar to middle eastern LGD I posted Info in my intro http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f20/hi-rare-breed-edmonton-ab-canada-12862/ the Estrella Mountain dog looks and functions like the Sarplaninacs.
Here is a forum post about a guy who replaced an Akbash with Azores cattle dogs in Ontario Canada they stay outside all the time loose http://forums.oodmag.com/showthread.php?t=3268 or here 
http://forums.oodmag.com/forumdisplay.php?f=22&order=desc&page=8 under coyotes and coyote killers you may have to sign in to read it.


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## Maria Janota (Sep 24, 2009)

Are they popular in Canada? Haven`t seen one in Poland, I`m curious what they are, but I`m also suspicious when there is a small gene pool and (as often) breeding for hair color and texture. Is the Canadian standard similar to the FCI`s http://klubmolosow.pl/wzorce/miguel_en.pdf ?


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## Carlos Machado (Dec 28, 2008)

They aren't popular anywhere but the breeder I got mine from has been breeding for 10 years he was born on the Island and raises beef cattle, Dreamteam kennels has been breding for many years also just one litter a year they work their dogs in protection, So does Paul Cipparone of http://wellingtonk9.com/ he has been on three outdoor life network shows showing obedience protection and cattle herding (1) Ultimate dogs (2) Highly trainable (3) personal protection. They are bred and remain with the cows year around in Finland this site has some good info http://www.autodefe.net/engtie.html they are also bred in France, is been awhile since I was looking they are few and far between. The gene pool may not be huge but much larger than many of our modern reconstructed show breeds origins like the Rottweiler Engish/Italian/French/German mastiffs, german shepherds,boxers most any modern breed has had more bottlenecking than this breed which has been selected by poor farmer for centuries to protect the farm from Invades or thieves and work livestock and anything else the farmer may need those that didn't earn their keep weren't kept as pets only the strongest survived there was some exchange of blood with the passing ships as mentioned in my intro post above. The color was probable based on rivalry between two Islands in the Azores one not excepting brindle the cao de Fila de Terceira from the third island inhabited which is almost extinct while one the first Island of Sao Miguel bred only brindle's they came from the same gene pool with different crosses of the Rafeiro do Alentejo bred true to type but still crossed on occasion producing solid red colored dogs the first generation kind of like the mals & dutchie crosses the color determines what breed they are recognized as, the dutch population of dutch shepherds is about the same as the Portuguese population of the Cao de Fila de Sao Miguel and most likely related because the dutch had settled in the Azores when it was found which could explain the dutchies coat & color. The Azores cattle dog is long lived about 15 years with no known health problems probable due to the very limited or no care the dogs received by the poor farmers who only breed them for work until very recently. There is only one standard the Portuguese standard that was translated for FCI recognition and they are the only registries.


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## Maria Janota (Sep 24, 2009)

Seems like nice dogs, the fact that they`re smaller then the rest of molosses might be good for health problems. 
Exept this


Carlos Machado said:


> The Azores cattle dog is long lived about 15 years with no known health problems


reminds me when my dog was diagnosed with an elbow dispasia the existence of this disease wasn`t known to majority of CAO breeders here (and isn`t known in Central Asia i suppose).

I saw them on youtube today, herding cows - are they more prey driven then typical LGD?


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## Carlos Machado (Dec 28, 2008)

Ya I shouldn't have used this quote "The Azores cattle dog is long lived about 15 years with no known health problems" it is repeated on most of the sites giving descriptions of the Saint Miguel cattle dog most of the time it's the exact same info I should have said "they are long lived with few health problems".
They are smaller because dogs larger than 24inchs would have a much harder time getting out of the way of a back kick or horns of a bull and for speed. They are a unique breed functioning as a LGD, herder & guard a truly capable breed.


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