# K-9 Learning



## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

K-9 Learning
Levels of Learning​Puppies and young dogs can be taught without much harsh corrections/punishment if a few points are remembered. The handler must take the new lesson and link it to prior K-9 knowledge. Linking lessons helps the dog obtain success and the rewards (verbal, toy, or food) must be given in a timely manner. Mastery of the lesson is then tested and corrected, this is a proofing for understanding.

Just as children have attention spans of approximately one minute per age, a young dog or puppy cannot be expected to stay focused for extremely long periods of time. Rewards must be issued at an exact time and not seconds after the fact. Punishment is a MOST aggressive form of correction and if done in excess can kill drives.

Levels of Learning can go from a walk on a leash to a sit position. From the sit position to teaching the down/platz command. Expanded learning can then be changed to a down on motion. Again, training levels increase and time on task increases as the puppy matures and rewards make learning fun. \\/ 
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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

With puppies, it's all about building. I see very few instances where a puppy should be corrected/punished, admonished etc. First, I don't believe in corrections of any type for a behavior not yet learn; secondly I like puppies to be....... well, puppies.

DFrost


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

hey I want to point out that it's not always a great idea to teach the down from a sit position if you're into competition OB. Many of those dogs learn to sit and then dog thereby causes a loss in points.

I always teach the down before I teach the sit.


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## jay lyda (Apr 10, 2006)

David Frost said:


> I don't believe in corrections of any type for a behavior not yet learn


I feel the same way David. Excellent point.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

I have never come across any human or animal that didn't learn from a foundation of past experiences, levels of learning. Those who continue to do the same thing and get the same response and are looking for something different...:-k Erh, ah!

How can a puppy learn other than through natural ways? Some human corrections need to be done to "guide or shape" positive behaviors. This way you don't fix multiple wrongs or habits which are counter to your end result. A wolf will do a muzzle bite to correct a pup and a dog will do the same, it's still a correction of poor behavior.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

David Frost said:


> With puppies, it's all about building. I see very few instances where a puppy should be corrected/punished, admonished etc. First, I don't believe in corrections of any type for a behavior not yet learn; secondly I like puppies to be....... well, puppies.
> 
> DFrost


David aren't corrections just a guided method of learning? You wouldn't let a child touch a hot stove, you correct and guide it away from danger. As long as the correction isn't *punishment *because the lesson has not been understood and developed as a behavior. [-(


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

You tell a child "don't touch that, it's hot." You don't smack em accross the head or pinch their neck.


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## kim guidry (Jan 11, 2008)

So I guess an e-collar is out also for my son, huh? JK!!!






Mike Schoonbrood said:


> You tell a child "don't touch that, it's hot." You don't smack em accross the head or pinch their neck.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

I like to let puppies be puppies too. I just pretty much play with my dogs for the first year anyway!


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Howard Gaines III said:


> David aren't corrections just a guided method of learning? You wouldn't let a child touch a hot stove, you correct and guide it away from danger. As long as the correction isn't *punishment *because the lesson has not been understood and developed as a behavior. [-(


Again, it's the bugaboo about terminology. Technically, a correction is punishment of some form. I know what you mean though. We just view it differently. If a pup is biting me in play, I redirect or give the pup something he can bite. That's neither a correction or punishment, depending on what you prefer to call it. It's redirecting the behavior. The behavior isn't wrong. 

Same with the child, I'd redirect the behavior. If they touch it, they get a correction, but not from me. A child that isn't old enough to understand shouldn't be put in a position where they have the opportunity to touch the hot stove.

DFrost


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

OMG! Ok folks, call it what you want and I "think" we are speaking the same language. IMO a correction can be a redirection of poor/unwanted/bad behavior. A correction can be a minor physical adjustment as well. You don't beat a dog, kid, or old person if somethting unwanted happens. Have I left out any fell good groups here? F-ing sorry if I did. :twisted: 

Corrections with kids or K-9s are done to remove or modify the behavior you don't want. You would never let the kid touch the stove and be scared for life. "You dumb fuk, what were you thinking? Now look at you, third degree burns all over 90% of your body. Way to go! I guess you will learn now, you simple A$$!!!!" 

*If you were a smart/wise parent, this would NEVER happen. Aggressive corrections can take place. Now, take the kid out and replace it with a dog/puppy.*

Punishment is the harshest form of a correction. You might have to spank a kids butt (old skool) but I can tell you from first hand experience, a wise youth will think twice before stepping onto the "stupid step" again! You might take the driver's license away and that's punishment, you might keep their happy little butt home for 4 weeks and not allow friends over...that's punishment. Corrections can be verbals or paraverbals and have a weaker purpose/scope or outcome as a step below the punishment level. 

I have said this before, people who beat the hell out of their dogs do it because they have the physical and mental ability to do it. It sure as hell doesn't make it right/correct/okay or any other freaking term you wish to affix to it! :twisted: :mrgreen: 

Like my daddy said, "When you're right, you're right and when you're wrong, it's seldom!" [-(


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

8-[ Be scared for life..........isn't that the idea?


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Howard, I thought we were having a discussion. If it weren't for different ideas, we could have a "mutual admiration society". It seems you're offended if someone offers a different perspective than yours. Perhaps you aren't but that's the way it comes across to me. If it will help settle your cheerios a little better, just let me say; Geez Howard, you're right. Had you not posted that I'd have remained ignorant. From now on I'll just read your edicts, you assume I'm in total agreement and the others won't have to see just how little I really do know.

DFrost


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Chris Michalek said:


> hey I want to point out that it's not always a great idea to teach the down from a sit position if you're into competition OB. Many of those dogs learn to sit and then dog thereby causes a loss in points.
> 
> I always teach the down before I teach the sit.


Chris on that you are correct; but most folks even those here, aren't doing national Schuzhund stuff. The regular pet owner is best served, IMO, to do the down from the sit position. This builds on prior skills and knowledge, it works from a base that both dog and handler understand.

If everyone were doing national or regional Schutzhund many things would happen. It would be a poor turn out as many would NEVER get past the BH. Most K-9 handlers are themself, undisciplined. If you tell someone training starts at 9:00...I'll bet a thousand dollars someone will show up late! 

Even this forum is a little misleading, "*Working Dog Forum*" and we have folks who have never owned, titled, or trained a working dog, solely cat owners with a few. There are folks here who could never even handle a hard working/sporting dog. Give them a hard KNPV dog and they would crap all over themself. "Well, I'll just 'reason' with this dog." Right! The first thing to happen is they would have "Fluffy" locked around their neck doing the old "Help me somebody" number. 

In the big picture, there are sport and working folks here and then there are those who are working dog wishers. They think they could deal with a tough dog, the truth is a tough dog would be having a field day with their white collar jock! 8-[ Me, I'm happy having the Border Collies and Bouviers that give me a reason to train on Sunday and get up in the morning! \\/


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

David Frost said:


> Howard, I thought we were having a discussion. If it weren't for different ideas, we could have a "mutual admiration society". It seems you're offended if someone offers a different perspective than yours. Perhaps you aren't but that's the way it comes across to me. If it will help settle your cheerios a little better, just let me say; Geez Howard, you're right. Had you not posted that I'd have remained ignorant. From now on I'll just read your edicts, you assume I'm in total agreement and the others won't have to see just how little I really do know.
> 
> DFrost


David not at all. You and others here have seen more and done more and are humble at times to keep from bragging. On many things addressed here we are on the same page, even if spoken a little off the wall. I've got no axe to grind with you, enjoy your positions and opinions+/-. Offended...never! Remember, I teach high school kids for a living, if I were thin in the skin, I would be dead by now! XXXOOO :mrgreen: 

You don't need to play to anything with me. Good, bad, or other David we are all still on the same team, I hope.


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## Catalina Valencia (Feb 20, 2008)

David Frost said:


> With puppies, it's all about building. I see very few instances where a puppy should be corrected/punished, admonished etc. First, I don't believe in corrections of any type for a behavior not yet learn; secondly I like puppies to be....... well, puppies.
> 
> DFrost


I'm with David, because when I first readed the paragraph I was thinking in formal training. I think education and to behave nicely and do all that stuff you can correlat with kids it needs a degree of corrections. How much it depends on the handler and the dog without falling in abuse, but it's needed because of the safety of the pup (or the kid) and for your own sanity living with one.

But when it comes to formal training, exercises, either way for sport, work or to show the tricks for the friends then in a pup it's a lot more about building in the sense David described above and the pup thinking that training is the best game ever.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I have no problems with mild correction on puppys over manners, but as David said, "A child that isn't old enough to understand shouldn't be put in a position to touch a hot stove". As for actual "training", I've found that physical correction isn't needed if the dog is brought up correctly. 
I'm proving that to myself now after almost 50 yrs of "correcting".
As for the term "punishment", that's correction that has gone overboard. JMHO! :grin:


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## Matthew Grubb (Nov 16, 2007)

Bob Scott said:


> II've found that physical correction isn't needed if the dog is brought up correctly.


Combine that statement and the theory that dogs revert to their initial training during high stress and you have an outstanding topic for a book!


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Monkey see, monkey do....We have always taken young Labs and allowed them to watch the older ones do water work and collect bumpers. The "pond elders" show the kids how it is done. The same thing is done with respect to bite work. All of our protection prospect puppies get crated to the "safe" side of the training field fence. There they can watch and bark as they see the wild action taking place. I think this is a safe way to intoduce young puppies to the world of chop and chew! :-k


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Hi Howard

We do this in a similar manner - however, we don't crate the pups. We have them on a long lead, handler remains quiet (if "it" can) or tie them up to a post if "it" can't.

Leaving it tied to a post, you see what you are going to get, maybe. The pup is on it's own, not crated, therefore not "protected". 

The big dogs have no interest in the minors - they have one goal - "get him" and "him" is "Mr. Decoy 2008":mrgreen: 

What would you think are, apart from the obvious (injuries) the benefits from crating?

Gillian


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Matthew Grubb said:


> Combine that statement and the theory that dogs revert to their initial training during high stress and you have an outstanding topic for a book!


That would make a fascinating study....for some young person. :wink:


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Howard Gaines III said:


> Even this forum is a little misleading, "*Working Dog Forum*" and we have folks who have never owned, titled, or trained a working dog, solely cat owners with a few. There are folks here who could never even handle a hard working/sporting dog. Give them a hard KNPV dog and they would crap all over themself. "Well, I'll just 'reason' with this dog." Right! The first thing to happen is they would have "Fluffy" locked around their neck doing the old "Help me somebody" number.
> 
> In the big picture, there are sport and working folks here and then there are those who are working dog wishers. They think they could deal with a tough dog, the truth is a tough dog would be having a field day with their white collar jock! 8-[ Me, I'm happy having the Border Collies and Bouviers that give me a reason to train on Sunday and get up in the morning! \\/


Oh Howard...it is sooooo great that you are here to share your wisdom with all the peons. Think of all you have to teach the "working dog wishers"!

You of course have nothing at all to learn.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Jennifer Coulter said:


> Oh Howard...it is sooooo great that you are here to share your wisdom with all the peons. Think of all you have to teach the "working dog wishers"!
> 
> You of course have nothing at all to learn.


And you Jennifer? You speak volumes about yourself! :mrgreen:


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Gillian Schuler said:


> Hi Howard
> 
> We do this in a similar manner - however, we don't crate the pups. We have them on a long lead, handler remains quiet (if "it" can) or tie them up to a post if "it" can't.
> 
> ...


Gillian we keep them crated for the liability issues. The "what ifs" are the major factor. Some handlers or new folks who come out for assessments may not have great leash control. A dog aggressive animal could then run over and rip into a puppy which is tied out. The front of the crate also limits what the puppy can see...action out front! \\/


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Howard - I see\\/ 

Gillian


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