# Easily identifiable temperament in pups?



## Gina Mezin (Mar 8, 2016)

Which temperament traits are easy to pick out amongst littermates and which take time to come out and are best guessed at by lineage? Just curious. I'm a newbie , not planning to ever breed myself, but am wondering how a good breeder matches puppies. I will be getting a Mal pup from an experienced breeder that I trust with this. I wonder if its easy to spot a pup that will get along well with other dogs and wonder about other traits as well. Also could someone explain pack drive to me? Thanks for your time!

Gina


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Imaging watching pups as watching a group of young preschoolers. Some kids are into everything and want to be in charge of everything. Some are shy and hang back to just watch. Others are participants until things get to rough and opt to leave the play group. Some watch until they see an opportunity to take advantage of the situation and then jump in. Watching puppies for traits is more than the work of a couple of minutes. I spent over 2 hours with the last litter I picked from before making my decision from the 4 males present. The one I finally selected was the smallest, scrawniest pup but there was a tenacity and level of energy that appealed to me. 

The best suggestion I can make is to spend time talking with the breeder and establish a relationship with them. Let them know what you are looking for (what's your ideal pup like) and the goals you have in mind. The breeder should be able to select a puppy where your personality and its will match. Nothing worse is handing a weak puppy to a strong personality or a strong puppy to a weak owner. The best teams balance each other. This is your first dog and you want the best but you will make a lot of mistakes - even with a good club behind you - and some pups handle these things better than others. The breeder should know which of his pups could be a good fit for a first time owner/handler. If you can you should also take a couple of trips over and spend time with the litter. Just sit in the corner and watch the dynamics. Discuss your observations with the breeder. You may find a puppy that actually picks you. If that happens, my suggestion is it to take that pup and run with it.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

from my experience i think it is wrong to think you can spot how well a pup will get along with other dogs when the pup is in the litter

what you are seeing in a litter is how siblings interact, which may or may not transfer to how the pups will get along with other dogs after they leave the litter
- but if you want a more definite answer i would say it can't be done 

- dogs relating to other dogs depends a lot on the handler. in my opinion, handling is as important a factor as the genetics

if you allow your pup to get in the face of other dogs it doesn't know, you may be asking for trouble. an adult dog you do not know can discipline your pup too strong, and that may affect your pup for a long time in terms of dog on dog behavior
- you have probably heard not to coddle it either, but that is easier said than done. it's too easy to treat your pup like a newborn helpless baby

furthermore, the people who "socialize the heck" out of pups VERY often do not take care of their pup when they do so. they do not show proper guidance and leadership, and they do not proactively step in when they should. they give other owners too much credibility for being able to handle their dog.
- then they complain that another dog attacked their poor puppy :-(
- i have heard this MANY many times from dog owners who have dogs that don't get along with other dogs. they blame it on the "other dog" or the "other owner" because they had NO clue how to properly socialize their own.
- then you get other owners who think their dog doesn't need to make friends with ANY other dogs because their dog is destined to be a personal protector. this attitude can be equally as stupid and also cause problems

my summary
1. protect your pups from other dogs but don't coddle it and shield it from other dog interactions
2. your target should be NEUTRALITY and self confidence for your dog
3.i still think the "group classes" you refer to are a bad way to start out unless you can control the other dogs around you...which is usually not possible
4. i feel even the most experienced breeder cannot pick this type of dog for you when it is in a litter.....because it is also VERY owner dependent
5. go to a shelter that has a litter and watch them interact...that might broaden your experience base too

i would like you to pass this opinion on to your breeder and hear what she says because i could be way off track ---- i'm a trainer, not a breeder


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

typical "meet and greet"

"Hi there; nice dog you have....soooo calm....is it friendly ? "
-- "SURE....my dog likes other dogs a lot.....your pup is soooo cute "

pup approaches eagerly ..... licking and wagging at the other dog .... life is wonderful 

(both owners start chatting to each other while watching their dogs)

&!^!%*....SNAP :-(((((

-- "OH, i'm sooo sorry....he never did THAT before "


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

When talk terms in dog training like pack drive. Just understand there is no clear cut definitions to a lot of these terms. A lot of language is loose generalizations to describe what we are seeing. So bare that in mind. Pack Drive is the loose term on how much a dog inherently is driven to be with, and work with the people and dogs in it's inner most circle. That's a real basic explanation. This can manifest itself in a million in and one ways and two dogs with good pack drive may show very different behaviors. But an example is my old female has good pack drive. She has a shallow appreciation for strangers and other dogs. But when it comes to her family she would bite you if you tried to restrain her from getting to me. But if I held her and you called her... she could care less about you. That's a little bit of an extreme example. But the dog does not really have a choice about this. The dog is driven to be with me. It's more than she just likes me. It's instinctual.

As for trying to pick a puppy to see how well it will get along with others. I think at 8 weeks you can start to see somethings that could let you know if a dog is going to have some social skill at getting along with other dogs. Obviously there is no full proof way to know it's gonna be a sure thing. But you can see some things. Like if 2 pups are playing and one gets pissed and yaks at the other pup. If the pup that was getting to rough heeds the warning. I'd take that as a good sign the pup will have some capability at respecting boundries. And it doesn't have to be all out submission. If the puppy just moves on with it's day and finds something else to do. I'd take that. If the pups lights off and goes ape shit on the other puppy. That might be a sign that they are going to have a very strong personality and may not be respectful to others. Again, they are just pups and a lot happens in the next year or two. So nothing is guaranteed. And a lot of this is not going to be able to be explained over the internet. It takes a little experience and little bit of "dog sense" to kind of process what you are seeing. Just like everything in dog training. Reading dog behavior is kind ofa talent.... and not's really easily transfered by words.

I have introduced a lot of pups into my house, as well as older dogs. I have been pretty lucky. I don't know if it's something I do that I am not aware of or if it's just luck.I have had a pretty peaceful household with dogs coming and going. But Not one Puppy I have introduced has had a problem, and none of my dogs have. First, My dogs have good social behavior. They all know the boundries I set down. They are very clear. So when I introduce a puppy they have good role models. They older dogs also are allowed to teach the puppies the rules. I do not interfere too much. I think the older dogs are just as much a factor... if not more than the puppy. The puppy is going to be very pliable in terms of shaping it's personality. The older dogs are, who they are. 

When I do see problems in other households it's often the pup is isolated from the other dogs. Grows up for sometime with only child syndrome. Then the handler one day tries the great experiment and puts them together. 

One little thing I was taught early on in my dog training journey was the value of off leash walks with my pack. I cannot express how invaluable this tool is when introducing new puppies into my home. The first thing I do is load everyone up in the van....find a field and let everyone out. Now I cannot prove any of what I am about to say. But it's my theory why this is great way to introduce dogs to one another. First most fights happen when handlers let dogs out together and then just stare at them...waiting to see what happens. When you walk. the dogs attention is ever so slightly divided. There is no forced meeting. The puppy usually sticks close to me and my dogs go and do their thing. My dogs might come and check-in. Check out the guy for a minute...but they have more important business to attend to...like sniffing. Eventually the pup starts to want to see what the other dogs are doing...they start smelling what the other dogs are smelling. They still are not really interacting yet. But they are... Dogs if we set them all free.. would roam. They would walk. They would walk together as a pack. In fact it would take up the majority of their time. This also builds drive to be with the pack. Like all my dogs know to follow me. If I turn around and go back to the van. My dogs do too. Little Junior in all of his defenselessness probably will find it in his best interest to stick with the dogs and the guy who hasn't tried to eat him. So the little guy follows. I do this daily. Now, knock on wood.

I think most of the time when you treat your puppy normal without any crazy protocols for introduction and you have dogs with good social behavior. The puppy will easy be accepted and meld right in.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

i like your approach James...definitely one of the best ways to handle pups

when humans can stay out of the way, dogs will always learn how they fit in with each other. unfortunately most people don't have a boss and a nice balanced pack of role models that pups can hang with and learn from 
- the more you operate in an ever increasing urban environment the more non-dog owners you constantly have to deal with

i was also curious about the pack question....we've had lots of 'drive' discussions about most every drive that has ever been coined

- the ability to read dogs should always improve with experience, but i still come across people "who have been around dogs all their lives" and still can't read basic canine behavior 
- hope it doesn't take this too far off track, but why do you suppose that happens ??? does it take someone who can read dogs to teach others how to do it, or does it just "happen" ???


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## Edward Weiss (Sep 19, 2011)

There are a number of standardized test that I have found useful including Volhard
http://www.workingdogs.com/testing_volhard.htm and aspects of the NAVHDA protocol for pups older than a few months.
Ive helped develop HWA tests http://www.huntingworkingairedales.com which incorporate these and was able to follow up to some extent the pups as they mature.
A lot depends on their upbringing but the old saw holds..
" Ya can tone a high dog down but ya cain't bring a low dog up."


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Edward Weiss said:


> There are a number of standardized test that I have found useful including Volhard
> http://www.workingdogs.com/testing_volhard.htm and aspects of the NAVHDA protocol for pups older than a few months.
> Ive helped develop HWA tests http://www.huntingworkingairedales.com which incorporate these and was able to follow up to some extent the pups as they mature.
> A lot depends on their upbringing but the old saw holds..
> " Ya can tone a high dog down but ya cain't bring a low dog up."


It is interesting the Volhard test I initially did that test on the the litter I whelped 6 years ago. I am in contact with 90% of the owners and have looked back on the test and what the pups are like as adults. Basically I'd say now that they compare favourably 75-80% correct compared to how they tested at 7.5 weeks old. Sure some a lot less and some have a higher percentile comparison speaking. 

As with all tests of this nature the Volhard test is again just a snap shot in time and shouldn't be treated like a sure thing. Some of the pups who tested highly ended up as mediocore adults and others who tested lower ended up being fire crackers. My own pup was not a super interactive puppy in the test but he is now a Ring 3 which required a lot of interactive training. The Volhard test said he wouldn't be a good dog for being interactive but as an adult he is, go figure. 

Sometimes you just have to go with what your gut tells you.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Geoff Empey said:


> I
> 
> Sometimes you just have to go with what your gut tells you.


I had a lot of advice from dog handlers in the first dog club I joined. This was years ago and the advice was sound. I attended one or two seminars in Germany given by down to earth Leistungshunde handlers. Elmar Mannes, Fritz Biehler, Ronny van den Berg. I followed their comments on the dogs they judged, my own included.

The dog world was ok until the turn of the century. There has been such a lot of rubbish printed since then. Everyone is trying to jump on the bandwagon. *Positive dog training* is the slogan for most dog trainers who are only out to earn money.

There is no way - in my mind - that one can bring up a dog on only positive training.

If you have ever watched dogs and their pups interact, you will know what I mean. 

My old Landseer was alive when I brought our Briard pup home. One weekend we looked after the pup's mother and all three were in the garden. Suddenly, both Landseer and pup's mother dived in on the pup and sent him running into the garage. It might have been to toughen him up or to remand him. I didn't see what happened from the beginning BUT I never would have interfered.

I am often heayvhanded but I have learned from reading my dogs that this is not the way to handle my little Giiant Schnauzer. I am not going to be soft with her but I am taking steps to ensure that her "biting attacks and answering back" do not go unattended. I have had correspondence with her breeder and her brother that she has kept is reacting similarly and we seem to be on the same page.

I think I could hit Enya over the head with a skillet and she would retaliate. But this is where reading the dog and reacting comes in. The more I used force, the more force she brought forward. I can only think that she notices that I am losing my position as her "boss" by losing my temper.

I have noticed slight improvements since I have changed my treatment of her.


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## Gina Mezin (Mar 8, 2016)

Cool preschooler analogy. I hope I get a chance to see the litter interact together. Sarah, you are on it. My breeder asked about my personality in the puppy application before she asked about what I wanted in a pup. I don't know how well I explained my own personality. I wasn't sure what to explain except that I like to do active things. I think I mentioned that I wasn't into an exacting sport like IPO, but liked to challenge myself by trying new activities. That may translate to a dog that is very environmentally stable and athletic (you'd want to see that in any Mal though) In my life, I have been competitive in people sports and am not a pushover, but mostly, I like to have family, friends and dogs accompany me on adventures. I'd like a dog that's confident to try different protection scenarios and daily activities. I like to challenge a dog athletically. The breeder did have a pretty extensive section about what I was looking for. I can't wait for the pups to be born and have an actual conversation with the breeder. Thanks Sarah.


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## Gina Mezin (Mar 8, 2016)

Interesting opinion Rick. I do hope to run that by the breeder. In checking out her site, it looks like she tries to breed dogs that are social with people and dogs which interests me. But as you mentioned, it may have much more to do with how she socializes and trains. I will ask and pass it on, but it may take a while. Many of her males and almost all of her females are neutral or social with other dogs even of the same sex. One or two of her favorites that she bred weren't though. The parents of the litter I like and another Spring litter are described as social with people and dogs. I agree with you and I prefer a more neutral but confident attitude around dogs we dont know. I don't trust the average dog owner on the street to handle their dog right and protect my puppy, but just like you said, am not going to hide my pup or cause my pup to be unduly nervous. At least that's my goal. Like your points.


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## Gina Mezin (Mar 8, 2016)

James, thanks so much for sharing your experiences. I like the off leash pack walk idea. Will do and often. I liked your examples of what could probably be gleaned from littermates interactions. I haven't gotten a chance to see too many litters for any period of time, but would love to if i get the chance. Thanks for explaining pack drive


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## Gina Mezin (Mar 8, 2016)

Edward, appreciate your links! Thanks for sharing your testing experience Geoff. 75-80 % is pretty good accuracy. But then some people just have experience and develop a sense for it like you did for your pup. I'm sure it takes training to do the tests objectively and understand what you are really observing also.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

James, excellent post!

As for looking at a litter, if I see one shy/spooky pup I'll walk away from the whole litter. 

Maybe something happened to that pup and maybe there's a spooky gene lurking in that litter. 

I don't want to find out down the line. I went through that with two Mals and that has probably burned me for ever looking at Mals again. I know, my bad! :lol: 

I also believe that what a good breeder or a skilled trainer sees in a litter of pups doesn't necessarily mean that's what the pup will be as an adult. 

That has a ton to do with how that pup is raised and trained.

I've never been disappointed in any dog I've selected as a pup but I can't say that for a couple I haven't selected myself.


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## Gina Mezin (Mar 8, 2016)

Bob, that's a high but good standard. I want to be firm like that also because of Mals I've known too. Probably wouldn't be strong enough if only one pup was shy, dont know. Thanks for sharing.

Gina


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Geoff Empey said:


> Sometimes you just have to go with what your gut tells you.


Amen.

Separately, Gillian "easy does it". Remember that saying… and with consistent / fair handling, I think you will find quite an alliance and balance with your little Giant Schnauzer.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Gina Mezin said:


> I'm sure it takes training to do the tests objectively and understand what you are really observing also.


I really wouldn't consider a Volhard test a 'test' like I was saying it is a snap shot in time. It isn't infallible by any means, far from it. 

I have a talented training friend who was given a Mali puppy to help because it was very spooky to the point where the breeder thought the pup should be euthanized. My friend was able to bring out a super confident social working dog after a couple of months. This dog is still in my opinion an awesome animal but it came from a really shaky start. So it goes to show you that the environment that it is raised in has a big bearing on what the dog can be.


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## jack van strien (Apr 9, 2009)

Picking a pup can be done but is very very difficult,you need to see the pups everyday for about two months to get a little feeling.
If you go see a litter and hope to pick a good pup you may as well pick the color you like.
The strongest most dominant pup chased all of the others away from the food bowl and he there for ate too much and now has cramps and is feeling bad,he looks bad.Would you pick him?
You need to see them all of the time and then it is still like Rick says.
Gina there is no way a breeder can pick a pup for you either,you say yourself how difficult it is to describe your own character.How would a breeder now?
I have a theory about great breeders and great trainers,they are mostly the same people.


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## Gina Mezin (Mar 8, 2016)

Jack, LOVE your theory. Ok, so as long as the litter and individual pup are not spooky and my breeder is well respected, I have no real worries and there's not much I can do BUT TRAIN. The breeder is really into matching her pups, so that "may" help, but she doesn't know me well yet. Maybe, she stays flexible, so when she meets me she's open to change. I'm not going to worry guys. Thanks so much for the comments 
Gina


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## Gina Mezin (Mar 8, 2016)

Geoff, nice to hear about that turn around!


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## Angie Schmidt (Dec 5, 2007)

I think the most important thing is that you really like the puppy you get. If the breeder matches puppies with new owners, she should give a choice of at least 2 puppies and explain the differences between the two.

One test is very important to me, pick the puppy that does not hesitate to follow you in an area it has never seen before. If the pup likes you right away and trusts you enough, it will be easier for you to train.

It is not a bad thing if a breeder suggests a puppy for inexperienced working home. My husband does that for inexperienced home but for experienced home, he will let the buyer pick their puppy.


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## Gina Mezin (Mar 8, 2016)

Gillian, thanks again. You bring balance to every discussion. As you know, I have little real, working type training experience, but have studied my own dogs and other peoples' with great interest for years. It is possible I have been too hard handed, like you, and am open to change, but I went with my gut and my dogs overall have been resilient. My first strange post about "ruining a working pup" was all about me seeking information about whether melding positive training with other methods might bring "balance", (oh no, not a Cesar word, sorry Matt) or harm. I wanted to know about bad practices that are still around. I've seen from my first Schutzhund guest experiences how much positive reinforcement and great timing accomplish. I am VERY impressed with what skilled behaviorism can do. Of course, it has to go along with some, or better yet, a lot of good reading of a dog. I do think many of the trainers on here could train a killer whale, a guinea pig, or even a bird though. I hope to rise to your level or at least a lot higher than I am. I do think "dog sense" is separate from behaviorism though. I'm sure trainers that use a ton of positive reinforcement can't really be great without understanding the nature of the species that they are training and using that to their advantage too. Also, I'm sure that there must be times for negative reinforcement, even if they are few, and other types of reinforcement. Again, I have NOT spent much time in the trenches, so am very ready to expand my horizons. I'm not watching Cesar, but you guys have made me curious now about damaging things. I will not watch that Victoria nut though. My intuition about her says, "run." I will stick with Ellis, and everyone's recommendations, to get a foundation before I start with my group. I do like to hear that some of you are open to certain things a pack is good for though. Thanks for the continued teaching!! Sorry, this went off topic. I was just wanting to finish up on what Gillian brought up.

Gina


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## Gina Mezin (Mar 8, 2016)

Interesting Angie. I would love to have two pups considered and be able to discuss pros and cons. I will ask the breeder about that. Also, I won't leave without loving that pup that goes with me for sure. The following in a strange area makes sense too. Thank you!


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## Gina Mezin (Mar 8, 2016)

So I don't go off topic anymore, thought I'd share that James totally understood, or guessed correctly about what I meant about "messing up a puppy" from my other post. I'm good now and won't need to complicate myself with understanding training philosophies I'm not ready for. Thanks for everyones patience on that. We can call that post over unless you really want to comment. Sorry-Back to this one, if anyone has more to add.


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## Gina Mezin (Mar 8, 2016)

Meant to say, other "thread" , not post. Oops


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Gina, 

The general rule is the thread owner - the person who starts the thread - can pretty much take the topic where they will. Or allow it to go wherever. We try to stay on the general topic but, as you are finding out, answering one question can bring up others that relate to your topic but aren't specific to what was asked. Sometimes this is not a bad thing as other stuff comes up you never thought of before. The moderators are here to make sure we don't break out the iron knuckles on each other but if someone posts something that you feel is rude, you also have the right to tell the poster to knock it off and to take their comments or contentious discussion to their own thread.


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## Gina Mezin (Mar 8, 2016)

Thanks for the explanation Sarah. I kind of thought that, but I tend to apologize a bit much


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Good explanation by Sarah.

I can also say that, as a moderator, I'm as prone as anyone here when it comes to side tracking a post.  :grin:

Another thing on looking for traits in puppies.

I firmly believe that a pup with a natural retrieve, regardless of soft hard or in between temperament, will be more apt to being compliant to obedience. 

I think the natural retrieve shows a more willingness to working with a human since it's the genetic left over of bringing home food for the pups in our wild canines. 

:-o Now I started it! 8-[ :wink:


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## Gina Mezin (Mar 8, 2016)

Will be trying to get one with natural retrieve. I've heard that too and seen it on tests. Thanks.

Gina


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Nicole Stark said:


> Amen.
> 
> Separately, Gillian "easy does it". Remember that saying… and with consistent / fair handling, I think you will find quite an alliance and balance with your little Giant Schnauzer.


It's already bearing fruit. I don't consider myself as an unfair handler but I realize I was "raging" and this is no way to treat a pup or a dog as they soon check out the fact that you are losing control.

Thanks Nicole.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

jack van strien said:


> Gina there is no way a breeder can pick a pup for you either,you say yourself how difficult it is to describe your own character.How would a breeder now?
> I have a theory about great breeders and great trainers,they are mostly the same people.


I can't agree to this in whole. Good breeders see the pups every day and are in a position to judge their characters. 

If they can't, they obviously haven't spent time with the pups or are just eager to sell each and every one.

My Briard breeder was not very experienced but I asked her nearly every day for a description of the 3 male pups who came in question. From her description and my own observations, I was able to pick out a friendly, outgoing and energetic pup, ideal for sport.


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## Gina Mezin (Mar 8, 2016)

Thanks Gillian. The breeder says that she will communicate with me about the pups. First she will let me know that the female is in heat and been bred, then, when the pups are born she will describe what she is seeing and run it by me. She says she will communicate back and forth by email with updates and keep asking what i'm looking for. I will make sure this happens


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## shelle fenton (Sep 24, 2015)

James Downey said:


> One little thing I was taught early on in my dog training journey was the value of off leash walks with my pack. I cannot express how invaluable this tool is when introducing new puppies into my home. The first thing I do is load everyone up in the van....find a field and let everyone out. Now I cannot prove any of what I am about to say. But it's my theory why this is great way to introduce dogs to one another. First most fights happen when handlers let dogs out together and then just stare at them...waiting to see what happens. When you walk. the dogs attention is ever so slightly divided. There is no forced meeting. The puppy usually sticks close to me and my dogs go and do their thing. My dogs might come and check-in. Check out the guy for a minute...but they have more important business to attend to...like sniffing. Eventually the pup starts to want to see what the other dogs are doing...they start smelling what the other dogs are smelling. They still are not really interacting yet. But they are... Dogs if we set them all free.. would roam. They would walk. They would walk together as a pack. In fact it would take up the majority of their time. This also builds drive to be with the pack. Like all my dogs know to follow me. If I turn around and go back to the van. My dogs do too. Little Junior in all of his defenselessness probably will find it in his best interest to stick with the dogs and the guy who hasn't tried to eat him. So the little guy follows. I do this daily. Now, knock on wood.


I could not agree more! Daily, we walk out together here. As a child, i would accompany my grandfather on such walks. Who extolled the virtue of this behaviour for increasing the pack drive in pups, establishing the bond between pup and entire pack, with clear demo of your leadership from other higher ranking dogs than the pup. Wonderful lessons, naturally, from older dogs. No force, no pressure. Plenty of great role modelling. 
He called this "walking out". Its was always off leash. And my dogs constantly check in with me, so too learns the pup. 

On these walks, we pass deer, roos, wombats, ducks, geese etc. As the pack do not hunt, nor does the pup. The older dogs teaching the puppy, we do not chase these, we just notice and carry on. Fantastic training.
As the pup rarely will leave our pack, in presence of predators/prey, it is conditioned for neutral response to livestock daily, and i dont really have to do much at all

Ive been watching some ******* dude, raising and training a malinois litter. And whilst some pups, appear more hesitant, less confident. He does exactly the same training with those pups, just slower, with more reps. By the time the litter was 10 weeks old, you could not tell the difference! or identify which of the pups was the so called, 'weaker nerved' one.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Gina Mezin said:


> Will be trying to get one with natural retrieve. I've heard that too and seen it on tests. Thanks.


Of the 8 pups in my litter only 2 retrieved naturally, the rest just turned and attacked the tester they were Malinois after all including the boy I kept. He has a beautiful retrieve now fwiw.


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## Gina Mezin (Mar 8, 2016)

Thanks Shelle. Thanks Geoff. Will keep that in mind


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## Gina Mezin (Mar 8, 2016)

So, I found out that Kadi is having ANOTHER Spring litter. I didn't remember seeing it listed before. I emailed her about it and she emailed me back. I asked if I could put a deposit down for them both and she said I could. Of course, with my "puppy fever" I keep running things through my head wondering if I did right asking to be put on both. I think I did. 

You all have advised me that so much is in raising the pup. You have given warnings about shy pups and overestimating or underestimating a pup. Going along with that, I thought the more pups the better verses choosing the bloodline that looks best. Unfortunately, one breeding has been done and the other not yet. Who knows what the age differences will be.

So Kadi thinks the NOT bred yet litter may be better for me and so do I, but thinks the other could be ok too. I don't want to miss out on that second litter, but in theory, I will really have equal access to both. Hope so. Gotta trust here.

The already started litter has a mother import from KNRP lines and Kadi's sire from some generations back. Both have had pups before and the mother has offspring used by the police. She is supposed to be inbred some, but then I'm still thinking there will be some size and better health possibilities due to that fact that the male and female are very genetically different. Some on here love KNRP too. The sire is supposed to have extreme drives in all areas, even pack drive. That kind of made me think again, but Kadi does not think its a no go for me. Both parents are supposed to have great grips and be great for SPORT (not exactly what I'm doing). But she says that PPD could probably be brought out of them and that they are suitable for police work.

Litter two is with Ares. She used to post a lot about him, and trails with him now, FRIII and cross trained. He seems super cool. This litter is all about Kadi's blood lines way back (a little inbred). She says this litter should have more edge and should be more suspicious. The pups may like to show teeth and be more of a deterrent for PPD. I do think "some" suspicion is good. 

Thanks for reading this, some may not be into me talking about bloodlines when I know nothing about them I've just got the puppy fever.

So, I told her, put me on both, but that I'm really excited about the Ares litter, but want her to have a bigger pool of choices. Would be great to have a choice from both litters I think. Then, I'd just go by gut. I also mentioned that she'd be able to choose better for me when she learns more about my personality. So I AM trusting her, just thought I'd share and her comments if this interests you at all. Oh, last thing, the female from the KNRP litter is a co own. My thoughts there are that she won't know these pups as well and that the exposure to environments could be different. Seriously trying not to over think and just be happy with any non shy puppy she and I both like for me.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Gina, time is an interesting thing and has a way of changing our desires in a lot of unexpected ways. 

I joined the WDF looking for a breeder of Dutch lined dogs (generalizing here). This was not something I could find in Alaska and at the time there were pockets of contract oriented programs (large and small), private owners who usually didn't need to advertise their litters. The WDF was good to me in that regard. It exposed me to a lot of people I would have never had the privilege of encountering - some eventually became friends.

It took about 18 months to get a pup and all I have to say is am glad, very glad, that I did not get the type of pup I originally set out to get. In the end, I got exactly what I needed. Good luck to you. Time is your friend, and options are good companions for a friend.


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## Gina Mezin (Mar 8, 2016)

Thanks Nicole!


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## Angie Schmidt (Dec 5, 2007)

One suggestion. I know that the sires/males can look impressive and exciting but learn about the dams. The female is the one that raises the puppies and imprints her behaviors on them. Dam is most important.


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## Gina Mezin (Mar 8, 2016)

Thanks Angie!


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I agree with Angie.

The physical connection the mother has carrying the pups will have a big influence on the pups temperament both good and bad. 

She can transmit her nerves, clear head, whatever. 

As a kid I recall old time hunters talking about this and I believe it is the beginning of the nature part of nature vs nurture. 

Maybe true, maybe not but I've always been a believer in it.


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## Gina Mezin (Mar 8, 2016)

Thanks. First time mothers can be good though right? Just depends?


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Absolutely but if the mom is clear headed and mature enough for breeding then nature will take over.


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## shelle fenton (Sep 24, 2015)

Defense in temperament? Surely not so easy to define in a pup? Please share your thoughts for a newbie.

As this wont develop till the dog is 18 months or so. Are there indicators early on. e.g. very confident! 
For those of you with these dogs, could you tell earlier when they were immature?


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