# malinois or gsd personality



## milder batmusen (Jun 1, 2009)

hello you all 

to you that has experience with mals I have two gsd but Im considering getting a mal in the future I like the gsd personality very much think its a beutiful dog and a inteligent dog

I have heard alot about the mals both good and bad but what is the difference do you all think about the gsd and malis ?????

You dont have to write about the mals high drive I know that they have high drive but how are they different at home or whars different about them on the training field ecept they are highly driven ???

I heard that they are not so balanced as gsd and that they have tends to bite or nervy dogs if not socialiced well and many of them are not good with strangers or small children

I do know that there can be differecers in the different lines of mals if sommeone here knowa the difference on RING and KNPV or SCHH lines let me know;-)


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## Grant Cusworth (Feb 15, 2011)

I used to have a GSD, but switched to Mals to play in French Ring. 

The bottom line, it's all about the dog you get. As a generalized statement, i would agree, the GSD would be easier to live with. However, I currently live with 4 Mals. 1 is an absolute dream to live with. no destruction, no tearing the house apart just by getting from point A to point B. Extremely confident and stable. As long I'm around people may come and go as they please. If I'm not there... dont even knock... LOL. He's intact and as good as you could hope for (better than my GSD by far) He only went from kennel to field until he was about 7 mos old, no effort in socializing him at all... He is all genetics.

And I have the other end of the spectrum as well. Destroys walls just coming into the kitchen to see what's going on. Completely haywire with strangers and infrequent friends. Hurls himself into any situation without regard for own physical well being. 

Another retired RIII that's too old to care, but was destructive as a younger dog, and the last one is great in the house, but mean as a tick to anyone he comes across (in public or on our property, quite sharp and civil as hell). 

Good luck!

Grant 





milder batmusen said:


> hello you all
> 
> to you that has experience with mals I have two gsd but Im considering getting a mal in the future I like the gsd personality very much think its a beutiful dog and a inteligent dog
> 
> ...


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## Mo Earle (Mar 1, 2008)

over the years I have had 10 gsd's and 7 mals , besides other breeds -- of course all have their individual personalities- IMO Mals are easier to train for sport/ working dogs etc- you can start training a lot younger and they get it 8-[ ....GSD's were my first favorite breed, now my second and they seem to mature later IMO- what you can do with a 12 week old Mal...you may be waiting until your GSD is 6months to a year....as far as they are in the house- depends on the Mal, currently I have 3 Mals in the house that do fine( 2 from Logan Haus-one is a pup, one is 15 months, and another that is 8 years old) ....but I have 3 Mals in my kennels, that are like ever ready bunnies and NEVER settle down more than a few minutes-great on the field, fun to work, but they are like they are on speed or crack all the time....all of my GSD's would do really well in the house-can mellow out-easily when needed-and currently we have 2 GSD's in the house, my other GSD is in the kennel as he is super dog aggressive.
We have a Mal pup who loves attention....but my older Mals- I have one Mal, that is a ham, and loves attention from everyone-does great on the field, is certified bomb dog etc.... our other mals- are aloof to people- as pups they were socialized, bringing them to all kinds of places etc...but they are great with us- but don't look to strangers to be petted etc- so I think that depends on the individual dog.
I would say Mals are not for those new to the dog world.....but once you have them- it is hard to go back!\\/\\/


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

sounds like quite a few civil or sharp mals around???Is it nerves?


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## Mo Earle (Mar 1, 2008)

when asking about "nerves"- I guess the definition has to be clearer -
Is it nerves- meaning fearful, leary, not confident-looking for a way out of the situation...nerve bag
Is it nerves- meaning cautious, sizing up the situation, being safe for his own being....a smart animal/a true thinker

or because a dog is not a social butterfly- aloof, could care less about strangers petting him- maybe even be unfriendly,civil or sharp to those approaching- is that a good or bad thing or considered a nerve issue? or is it actually a dog that is more confident,protective, sizing up the situation and not focusing on equipment, but rather the man approaching.... ....the subject of "nerves" is 
almost an entire discussion in itself.:-k 

personally I like the dog that may be civil, sharp, and is able to size up the situation- using his "nerves" in a positive direction...and I have seen this in both the GSD and the Mal.....IMO I do not want a dog that is trying to look for a way out, fearful,leary, or submissive to those approaching-but have seen that in both breeds also.


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

yeah i agree way to many threads about nerves already and dont want to go there again either.but thanks for clarifying what you were saying.


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## Anna Kasho (Jan 16, 2008)

IMO, having had 2 GSD's and a whole bunch of mals... Mals are quicker to react, quicker to turn on (some never turn off), quicker to do almost anything, anytime. Often react without thinking, not like a good GSD is supposed to be. My "good" GSD was higher thresholds overall, good drive and aggression, but the amount of digging needed to get it out of him was often frustrating. The "bad" one was almost quick to react as a mal and aggressive, but about as boneheaded, no genius there. Both were hard / higher pain tolerance. My mals do anything first and faster, but more sensitive. That can be an individual thing, or depending on the lines, though.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I've only had two Mals. Didn't keep either one very long. In drive they were good enough dogs but not in drive and they were spooks. That's a HUGE negative in my book.
I know there are good ones, even great ones out there but to many years with terriers left me a bit crazy with the environmental issues I saw in the two I had.
One of my current GSDs is very handler soft. I can crush him with my voice and I tend to be to demanding with my dogs. Handler soft is something I don't care for but he's he's happy about life in general and a fun dog to be around. The other GSD is without a doubt the best dog (any breed or mix) I've ever owned.


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

Even though i don't really like malis i think there is a lot stereotyping of the breed. Super nuts bla bla bla. I agree they are very high in drive and some may be a bit crazy but i think there are also many mals esp dutch lines that have an on/off switch and can behave well in the home.
The same sterotyping is done for the GSD, as if all GSDs are medium drive, soft dogs. I think too many people have owned show lines, half baked working lines and assume all GSDs are like that. I strongly believe that both breeds are the best all round working breeds. I choose GSDs over malinois not becaues they are better but i just prefer them. There are several malis and GSDs in police work, shutzhund and almost every working avenue there is.
I think many people are switching to malis because they are faster, more agile and all this is because they are smaller in size. That is not to say GSDs are couch potatoes, GSDs do the jumps in french ring, even rotties do, malis just seem to do it with a little more ease.:wink:
The best breeders of both breeds appreciate both breeds. There are GSDs in knpv and there are malis in IPO. Both are great breeds, individual temperament must also be considered.

JMO


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

RE-trainability differences... stereotype, or just plain fact?


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## milder batmusen (Jun 1, 2009)

thanks all off you for your opinion.

what I have noticed is when there not i drive many seem nervy and they seem to react with bite, more nervy than gsd.

I do know that many choose the mals because of the high drives and that they are agile and fast but if I want to get one I want something with stable nervs not a dogs that is nervous when not in drive or a dogs that bites his way out of pressure. and a dog that can handle seeing other things than the training field.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

like "what is the best dog food", this thread may go forever...
you've "heard a lot" about both and now you will "read a lot" about both, from other people's experiences with both, but it all boils down to what YOU want the dog for. then find a breeder who has references you can check who will pick a pup suited for your purpose and then try like hell to develop its potential. with any luck and if you have the basic skills you'll do fine, but if the dog has problems you'll still love it and rationalize its problems away and still like it ... unless you're the type that dumps a dog if it gets too hard to handle ... that happens too frequently with both breeds


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## milder batmusen (Jun 1, 2009)

rick smith said:


> like "what is the best dog food", this thread may go forever...
> you've "heard a lot" about both and now you will "read a lot" about both, from other people's experiences with both, but it all boils down to what YOU want the dog for. then find a breeder who has references you can check who will pick a pup suited for your purpose and then try like hell to develop its potential. with any luck and if you have the basic skills you'll do fine, but if the dog has problems you'll still love it and rationalize its problems away and still like it ... unless you're the type that dumps a dog if it gets too hard to handle ... that happens too frequently with both breeds


Yes but I still think that in Denmark a good mal is hard to find:wink:

I am not the type to dump the dog because it gets hard but I will dump a nervy dog that cant handle every day life or if he is the type that bites before he thinks or if the dog does not like small children I dont like nervous dogs that are afraid of many things.

but youre right when time is right I will go a visit breeders and search about the different mali lines 

I do know that I like the big ones and the dogs with a big head and the red brown color with black marks. I do know that color is not important I like this one alot


http://www.joefarm.be/website/dutch/dekreu/eskoh.html


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

milder batmusen said:


> I do know that I like the big ones and the dogs with a big head and the red brown color with black marks. I do know that color is not important I like this one alot



Milder, I think the GSD is the right dog for you. They have bigger heads than Malinois, there are some very red ones and they have more black markings.


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## milder batmusen (Jun 1, 2009)

Christopher Smith said:


> Milder, I think the GSD is the right dog for you. They have bigger heads than Malinois, there are some very red ones and they have more black markings.


he he he:razz:

Im not going to get rid of my gsd but I was considering getting a mali a the time I have my gsd as well, so Im not going to choose one breed from another


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Don't you just love the cross culture humour ? :lol:


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## milder batmusen (Jun 1, 2009)

no not always this cross is difficult to understamd sometimes :lol:


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## milder batmusen (Jun 1, 2009)

I just love this one 

http://www.arrackshome.nl/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=8&Itemid=19&lang=en


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

milder batmusen said:


> no not always this cross is difficult to understamd sometimes :lol:


Funny as from where I'm sitting :lol:.


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## milder batmusen (Jun 1, 2009)

maggie fraser said:


> Funny as from where I'm sitting :lol:.



Im sure you think its very funny:lol:


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

milder batmusen said:


> Im sure you think its very funny:lol:


I do I do :lol::lol:


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

milder batmusen said:


> thanks all off you for your opinion.
> 
> what I have noticed is when there not i drive many seem nervy and they seem to react with bite, more nervy than gsd.
> 
> I do know that many choose the mals because of the high drives and that they are agile and fast but if I want to get one I want something with stable nervs not a dogs that is nervous when not in drive or a dogs that bites his way out of pressure. and a dog that can handle seeing other things than the training field.


I don't know how far sweden is from where you are but blacknecks are very good breeders, their dogs are balanced. If you can import, i think KNPV lines will be great, most of the KNPV malis i have seen here in thailand are great on the training fild and cal in the house. We have one mali. probably french line that goes bersek in the kennel, jumps about 5 feet in the air repeatedly. Like i said not all malis are nuts, you can try blacknecks www.blacknecks.com, there is a kennel in the S (MASON'S MALINOIS) that uses blackneck dogs anf=d they are great also.


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## milder batmusen (Jun 1, 2009)

Oluwatobi Odunuga said:


> I don't know how far sweden is from where you are but blacknecks are very good breeders, their dogs are balanced. If you can import, i think KNPV lines will be great, most of the KNPV malis i have seen here in thailand are great on the training fild and cal in the house. We have one mali. probably french line that goes bersek in the kennel, jumps about 5 feet in the air repeatedly. Like i said not all malis are nuts, you can try blacknecks www.blacknecks.com, there is a kennel in the S (MASON'S MALINOIS) that uses blackneck dogs anf=d they are great also.


I have been looking at blackneck kennel and like what I se, and sweden is a country that is not that far from us in Denmark:razz:


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## Martin Koops (Oct 15, 2009)

Since your in Denmark should be relatively easy to go see the DMC Korung (German Malinois club) should give you a wide cross section of the Malinois breed. The more examples of the breed you see the better informed you'll be in deciding if the breed is for you.


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

daneskjold malinois


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## milder batmusen (Jun 1, 2009)

will fernandez said:


> daneskjold malinois


Yes I know daneskjold malinois 
and I have seen both good dogs and dogs with high drives but not with stable nervs


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

No one has remarked on my particular question: _is it more truth than just stereotype, to compare their differences in difficulty to RE-LEARN a task?_ I've never raised and trained a mal, so don't really know. If you can't hardly reteach a mal anything, that seems to me to be a MAJOR difference between them.


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

Daryl Ehret said:


> No one has remarked on my particular question: _is it more truth than just stereotype, to compare their differences in difficulty to RE-LEARN a task?_ I've never raised and trained a mal, so don't really know. If you can't hardly reteach a mal anything, that seems to me to be a MAJOR difference between them.



I think a lot of the behavoir observed from Malis especially the dutch lines is more from the nurturing and not just genetics. I see a lot of similarities between KNPV malis and GSDs.

http://www.youtube.com/user/JeffOehlsen#p/f/47/X5KIYeOKiBA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IYlEkqX5xDI&feature=feedu


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y8RrD1QlPXI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XmXptLJ_EtU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KPIAkUuKspM

Same crazy drive that is 'typical' of malis.


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## milder batmusen (Jun 1, 2009)

Oluwatobi Odunuga said:


> I think a lot of the behavoir observed from Malis especially the dutch lines is more from the nurturing and not just genetics. I see a lot of similarities between KNPV malis and GSDs.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/user/JeffOehlsen#p/f/47/X5KIYeOKiBA
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IYlEkqX5xDI&feature=feedu


I like the gsd but cant seem to find a pedigree on him:-k

do you know where I can find the pedigree


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Daryl Ehret said:


> No one has remarked on my particular question: _is it more truth than just stereotype, to compare their differences in difficulty to RE-LEARN a task?_ I've never raised and trained a mal, so don't really know. If you can't hardly reteach a mal anything, that seems to me to be a MAJOR difference between them.


It's a stereotype. I think the problem comes when people try to retrain Malinois like they would a GSD. IME, you can use ham fisted compulsion to retrain a GSD. For example, if you want to change your finish from a flip to a go-around with a GSD you can jerk on the dog when he tries to flip and guide him with the correction collar into the go-around and he'll learn it within a few sessions. But if you try that with a Malinois they are more likely to connect the correction to something else and get spun up and crazy. And when they get confused and spun up, that's when handlers get bit. 

But if you are a smart handler Malinois are VERY easy to to retrain. Just look at how many of them are titled in different sports.


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## milder batmusen (Jun 1, 2009)

Christopher Smith said:


> It's a stereotype. I think the problem comes when people try to retrain Malinois like they would a GSD. IME, you can use ham fisted compulsion to retrain a GSD. For example, if you want to change your finish from a flip to a go-around with a GSD you can jerk on the dog when he tries to flip and guide him with the correction collar into the go-around and he'll learn it within a few sessions. But if you try that with a Malinois they are more likely to connect the correction to something else and get spun up and crazy. And when they get confused and spun up, *that's when handlers get bit.*
> 
> But if you are a smart handler Malinois are VERY easy to to retrain. Just look at how many of them are titled in different sports.



I have heard that often that the malinois bites his handler in frustration is that typically

We had one in our training field when the dog got frustraited he bites his handler I would say that is not a balanced dog


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

milder batmusen said:


> I have heard that often that the malinois bites his handler in frustration is that typically


Yes, if you don't understand Malinois or get stupid with them, they might bite you. 



> We had one in our training field when the dog got frustraited he bites his handler I would say that is not a balanced dog


You could be right. Have you ever asked the handler why his dog bites him?


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## Jackie Lockard (Oct 20, 2009)

I most certainly agree with Chris. Most GSDs can take hard handling. With a Malinois you need to know how to work with your dog or you'll wind up hurt. Simple as that.

I second Daneskjold. There's one in our club and he's a dam good dog. Aggressive as hell and I wouldn't get one with the intention of having a housepet. I've also heard several national level trial helpers recommending them as well. I've heard they're having a few litters this year.


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

milder batmusen said:


> I like the gsd but cant seem to find a pedigree on him:-k
> 
> do you know where I can find the pedigree


The first dog is Lubeck von der mahler meister

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=627896

Second dog is a leon staatsmacht son

http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/929211/Flexi-van-Brandevoort

JMO you'll find so many varieites of both breeds, best thing is to talk with many people in sport, k9 etc and let them know wxactly you want. If you want a medium drive and assume all GSDs are like that you may be disappointed and if you think all malis are 'maligators' u may end up with a very 'normal' dog.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

It's like comparing apples to pears!!

I've trained with GSDs and Malinois and it isn't so much the dog as the trainer, but then why wouldn't it be? Why refer to the Mali's sensitivity? Why say you can't start work with a GSD before six months?

Why not ask the handler why he doesn't adapt to the dog? Because in most cases the 2-leggeds are lacking in every sense.

This stupid comparison of one or two dogs that each of us have known won't help anyone but, brainwork will!!!


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## Shade Whitesel (Aug 18, 2010)

Stereotypically, it is just a difference between a "reactive" breed and a non reactive one. (Of course, you'll have various personality differences in each individual dog.) 
My mali goes reactive and over threshold much more quickly than the gsds. Since I like to train when he's under threshold, I haven't gotten as much training in his first 6 months as I did with my gsds. 
I'm finding that with the reactive breeds, they benefit from more information in training, yes, no, rather than with my gsd's where I can mainly dispense with the no and allow them to figure it out for themselves. Just interesting training differences, doesn't mean one is smarter or not, or that one needs heavy handling or not. 
it is apples to oranges, at least with the ones that I have!


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## milder batmusen (Jun 1, 2009)

Christopher Smith said:


> Yes, if you don't understand Malinois or get stupid with them, they might bite you.
> 
> 
> 
> You could be right. Have you ever asked the handler why his dog bites him?


He says that the dog is very sensitive and reactive and he is a dog that has been trained wrong #-o



Jackie Lockard said:


> I most certainly agree with Chris. Most GSDs can take hard handling. With a Malinois you need to know how to work with your dog or you'll wind up hurt. Simple as that.
> 
> *I second Daneskjold. There's one in our club and he's a dam good dog. Aggressive as hell and I wouldn't get one with the intention of having a housepet. *I've also heard several national level trial helpers recommending them as well. I've heard they're having a few litters this year.


Im not interested in a aggresive dog or a dog that can work live outside the training field has to be a dog that can be with kids and take him many places without him biting his way out of something he does not like.O


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## milder batmusen (Jun 1, 2009)

Oluwatobi Odunuga said:


> The first dog is Lubeck von der mahler meister
> 
> http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=627896
> 
> ...


no I know these two dogs I mean this dohttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y8RrD1QlPXIg


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

milder batmusen said:


> no I know these two dogs I mean this dohttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y8RrD1QlPXIg


have you tried asking the people that posted the video of the dog? that is where I would start...


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## milder batmusen (Jun 1, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> have you tried asking the people that posted the video of the dog? that is where I would start...




no but maybe I will do that,I have never seen the video until you put in the post


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## Chris Jones II (Mar 20, 2011)

milder batmusen said:


> Im not interested in a aggresive dog or a dog that can work live outside the training field has to be a dog that can be with kids and take him many places without him biting his way out of something he does not like.O


This is an interesting thread for a newb! It seems to be a general vibe that a Malinois is not a dog that will make a good family dog and sporting or working dog the way that a Retriever or GSD might, especially with kids or teenagers coming in and out of the house, friends and family visiting and such. 

I know that is a broad statement but someone's chances of finding a well rounded Malinois seem lower than finding a well rounded GSD, right? If a Malinois will bite someone for accidentally bumping him or stepping on his tail for, instance, is that typical for the breed? In my mind that does not make for a dog that can be trusted around normal, everyday, non-dog savvy people. Is that an unfair statement? If my girlfriends parents come over and pet the Malinois is he going to bite them? 

If I got a Malinois would I have to put him in a kennel every time someone came over to avoid a law suit and is kenneling dogs when guests come over par for the course and something that you suggest for any working dog in the first place? Do you let your working dogs go anywhere near your kids?


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Depends on the Malinois...that being said, if you're a newb, they are in general not a good "newb" breed. A good GSD would probably be more your speed. Both of my Mals are social to selectively social. My male does best if you let him approach you and then he wants petting. Otherwise he'll prefer to ignore most people. I had strangers feed him umpteenth treats when he was a pup but he's still not more than selectively social, which is fine. The thing I would worry with any working dog, not just Mals, are not so much the kids themselves (because you can hopefully train both your kids and your dog to coexist with supervision), but if the kids brought over friends and there was play fighting or rough housing. My male in particular may not see that as play to someone else "attacking his" child.


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

milder batmusen said:


> hello you all
> 
> to you that has experience with mals I have two gsd but Im considering getting a mal in the future I like the gsd personality very much think its a beutiful dog and a inteligent dog
> 
> ...


how does a DS fair in this discussion...


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## Gina Pasieka (Apr 25, 2010)

milder batmusen said:


> I just love this one
> 
> http://www.arrackshome.nl/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=8&Itemid=19&lang=en


This line is very environmentally stable and has great nerves. They are also the best looking mals I have ever seen, however they can show some handler aggression.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Chris Jones II said:


> This is an interesting thread for a newb! It seems to be a general vibe that a Malinois is not a dog that will make a good family dog and sporting or working dog the way that a Retriever or GSD might, especially with kids or teenagers coming in and out of the house, friends and family visiting and such.


Depends alot on how the dog was bred, raised and trained..




> I know that is a broad statement but someone's chances of finding a well rounded Malinois seem lower than finding a well rounded GSD, right? If a Malinois will bite someone for accidentally bumping him or stepping on his tail for, instance, is that typical for the breed? In my mind that does not make for a dog that can be trusted around normal, everyday, non-dog savvy people. Is that an unfair statement? If my girlfriends parents come over and pet the Malinois is he going to bite them?


again...depends on above factors. 



> [If I got a Malinois would I have to put him in a kennel every time someone came over to avoid a law suit and is kenneling dogs when guests come over par for the course and something that you suggest for any working dog in the first place? Do you let your working dogs go anywhere near your kids?


refer to above...
some are fine with guests, some are not, just as in other breeds. 

No one has said anything close to your assumptions, so where are you getting them from?

Dogs within any breed type are variable. 

I would never recommend a Mal for a first working type dog, period. 

I look at the malinois as a trainer's dog first and foremost, but that is just my opinion. On average a breed that is bred to do some sort of biting and fighting of humans, they are not retrievers...

Take this thread for instance. The hypocrisy of it. 

The OP is looking at dogs and asking questions about mals and gsd from KNPV lines, a program where the primary goal is to breed Police, Military, and security dogs, yet states she she needs a dog that will be fine and trustable around *strangers* and *small children*, and most likely the dog would be expected to live in a multidog household on top of the other requirements...last I heard, none of these are goals of the KNPV breeding strategy. (could be wrong here, of course)

Some dogs may be fine in the household setting with lots of kids and strangers around, and other dogs...some won't, just as in any breed.

In my mind you don't look for a family pet type dog, from breeders that are trying to produce strong police type dogs. If you got the right dog, and are a good responsible trainer and handler, and are smart and responsible it could happen sure...but you don't buy a dog bred for Police type work with the goal of having it be fine with strangers in your home, and to cuddle up with your kids and their friends, and play with your other dogs....that just don't seem real bright to me....again could be way off base here with the logic of it all....


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Jody Butler said:


> how does a DS fair in this discussion...


they have stripes?


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> they have stripes?


[-X:-$


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

ok ok...

They are the perfect middle ground between the GSD and the Mal....(at least that is what I hear)


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

milder batmusen said:


> no but maybe I will do that,I have never seen the video until you put in the post


I never posted any videos in this post....


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

quotes from Max von Stephanitz....

'The characteristics of the shepherd dog,home protection dog and police dog are the same:
ie.joy in work,devotion to duty and to master,mistrust and sharpness against strange and irregular things,docility and obedience,teachableness and quickness to understand,and in addition immunity to weather,uncommonly acute senses with gifts for retrieving and seeking,assisted by his special gait which leaves nothing unnoticed and unsought.'

*'The motto for work on man,of any and every description is firstly,Obedience,secondly,Obedience and thirdly,lastly and always,Obedience.'*

'The protection dog must be sharp,but this sharpness must be disciplined by training,turned in the right direction and conditioned by the most perfect obedience.'

'Training must give us dogs of the right sharpness,* produced by intelligent keeping,careful training,purposeful schooling which completes the work of the breeder.'*

guy is rolling over in his grave most likely....


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## Chris Jones II (Mar 20, 2011)

Joby Becker said:


> Depends alot on how the dog was bred, raised and trained..
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Fair enough. Although I suppose I was reading between the lines and interpreting things that were not being said. Noone flat out said a Malinois will maul the typical spazzy kids but from what has been said about the reactivity and prey drive of a typical Malinois it can be inferred, no? If as you say *"you don't buy a dog bred for Police type work with the goal of having it be fine with strangers in your home, and to cuddle up with your kids and their friends, and play with your other dogs."* Then I think my interpretations of what has been implied are fair. I'm just trying to learn and I do that best by asking lots of questions. I wasn't trying to imply anything about anything. I was interpreting.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Chris Jones II said:


> Fair enough. Although I suppose I was reading between the lines and interpreting things that were not being said. Noone flat out said a Malinois will maul the typical spazzy kids but from what has been said about the reactivity and prey drive of a typical Malinois it can be inferred, no? If as you say *"you don't buy a dog bred for Police type work with the goal of having it be fine with strangers in your home, and to cuddle up with your kids and their friends, and play with your other dogs."* Then I think my interpretations of what has been implied are fair. I'm just trying to learn and I do that best by asking lots of questions. I wasn't trying to imply anything about anything. I was interpreting.


wasn't baggin on you, just seemed like it,,,sorry....

I was more reffering to a certain type of dogs, from one program...not any particular breed...and the logic of looking in that program for a family dog, great with kids and strangers and great with other dogs...

In my mind I see the Mal as a breed..being bred for the most part first as a working dog, sport or police, and a family dog second. Not the other way around...NOT a dog that just anyone with an interest should expect to fit into the parameters given in this post...

The key factors would be socialization, and obedience, and the AMOUNT of training and time put into molding the dog to fit that role. Easier said than done, and not for people that are not prepared to do the training, and remain vigilant to the fact that they have a dog bred to bite for the most part...

these days a lot of people think if a dog shows aggression at times, or is reactive, or sharp in anyway...that the dog has nerve issues or is unstable..it could also be that those dogs should not have been selected to be pets running with strangers and kids...

there are plenty of breeders that are not breeding for police type dogs out there, and are most likely plenty that are breeding for more family type dogs as well...

choose from breeders that are breeding what you are looking for, and keep in mind they are not retrievers...

that was kinda what I was trying to say...


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## milder batmusen (Jun 1, 2009)

Jody Butler said:


> how does a DS fair in this discussion...


what do you mean???

If you mean the dutchies I like them alot maybe more than mals but weh have not got anyone here,maybe a few of the showlines but not working lines 



Gina Pasieka said:


> This line is very environmentally stable and has great nerves. They are also the best looking mals I have ever seen, however they can show some handler aggression.


Yes I like him to:wink:


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## milder batmusen (Jun 1, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> I never posted any videos in this post....




sorry a writing fault:---)


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## Jackie Lockard (Oct 20, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> I look at the malinois as a trainer's dog first and foremost.


I like that way of putting it. I think I'll use that when I'm out'n'about and people "want one" of my "handsome dog" no matter how much I tell them they're not for fricking pets.


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

The Mali is just way too varied through its bloodlines to sterotype them. You can sterotype them in their bloodlines more.
There are big differences between the unregistered KNPV malis v's the IPO pedigreed ones. The French dogs are different to the KNPV ones. The NVBK dogs are different to both IPO pedigreed ones, the French and the KNPV ones.

The difference between a Duco2 line bred KNPV dog and an Stoned linebred IPO dog are MASSIVE.


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

milder batmusen said:


> no I know these two dogs I mean this dohttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y8RrD1QlPXIg



Milder unfortunately that link isn't working at my end again. If you mean arie van eyk, the dog in the KNPV video that came in to the room choking, its from von der hornutte lines i guess. I think you can mail the guys at smacck9 or http://www.luykensdogsite.nl/


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

more MAX...

on breeding of GSD, 

On breeding:

'The dog bred as a business is no longer bred for his service to the breed,but for his market value.

The direction of the breed then is dictated by the desires of the market,usually Novices to the breed,who know nor care nothing of the weal or woes of the breed,know nothing of the value or aptitude for work.'

'The breeder on a small scale,one who works with 1 or 2 bitches is the most suitable breeder for service dogs because he can care for his breeding animals and their progeny to such an extent that he can produce strong,sound animals that can be trained.'

'The more we emphasise the social and civil importance of Service Dog breeding,the easier it will be for all true friends of the breed to keep it sound...it will then be stripped of all that has grown through Indifference,Ignorance,Vanity,the Obsession for 'sport' and Greed for Money.'


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> quotes from Max von Stephanitz....
> 
> 
> 'Training must give us dogs of the right sharpness,* produced by intelligent keeping,careful training,purposeful schooling which completes the work of the breeder.'*
> ...


More Max for you Joby....

Pg. 283 - "Whenever the dog is kept in an enclosed kennel - in order to keep him from doing any harm, or even not to suffer any harm, on account of his high monetary value, - he will not only degenerate physically, becoming stiff, sluggish and lazy, but will also become mentally torpid, and lose all his sharpness and vim....the dog who is kept in the kennel...is no better than a beast caged for show...Thus, kenneled dogs are liable, not only to become dull, but even mentally weak and mad; many of them acquire a craze for purposeless actions...Unfortunately these harmful consequences of kennel confinement do not show themselves all at once..."

Pg 452 - "We then once more arrive at the conclusion: work is an indispensable necessity for the shepherd dog; but kennel keeping will be a curse for him mentally and physically."

Pg 453 - "I have already spoken sufficiently, in Chapters 2 and 3, of the curse of kennel keeping in relation to the soul of the dog, and of its dangers for the breed, but as we have also seen, keeping in a kennel is anything but a blessing for physical development as well."


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## milder batmusen (Jun 1, 2009)

Christopher Jones said:


> The Mali is just way too varied through its bloodlines to sterotype them. You can sterotype them in their bloodlines more.
> There are big differences between the unregistered KNPV malis v's the IPO pedigreed ones. The French dogs are different to the KNPV ones. The NVBK dogs are different to both IPO pedigreed ones, the French and the KNPV ones.
> 
> The difference between a Duco2 line bred KNPV dog and an Stoned linebred IPO dog are MASSIVE.


Yea Im sure that youre right here in Denmark Ive have noge seen much good from the french lines many of them seems very aggresive towards other people even the family , seem very protective towards the owner and very sensitive if he training is not done right the dogs seems very reactive and will bite the ones that the dog misunderstand.

Yes I think that that is much truth to that the mals are very highly driven dogs but many of them dont have the nervs to handle their high drives:neutral:



Oluwatobi Odunuga said:


> Milder unfortunately that link isn't working at my end again. If you mean* arie van eyk*, the dog in the KNPV video that came in to the room choking, its from von der hornutte lines i guess. I think you can mail the guys at smacck9 or http://www.luykensdogsite.nl/



yes thats the dog I mean 
he looks good:mrgreen:


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

milder batmusen said:


> Yea Im sure that youre right here in Denmark Ive have noge seen much good from the french lines many of them seems very aggresive towards other people even the family , seem very protective towards the owner and very sensitive if he training is not done right the dogs seems very reactive and will bite the ones that the dog misunderstand.
> 
> Yes I think that that is much truth to that the mals are very highly driven dogs* but many of them dont have the nervs to handle their high drives*:neutral:
> 
> ...


some dogs have great nerves and are aggressive and protective, and may not be good with a family...it is not always nerves...


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> some dogs have great nerves and are aggressive and protective, and may not be good with a family...it is not always nerves...


 
Highly specialised or bad breeding you mean ? :-D


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> some dogs have great nerves and are aggressive and protective, and may not be good with a family...it is not always nerves...


If it isn't nerves Joby, what is it ? Family and young kids ?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

could be dominance...might be social aggression...dog could have possession issues...or just not have much respect for some people...

are those traits associated with nerves?


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

Joby Becker said:


> could be dominance...might be social aggression...dog could have possession issues...or just not have much respect for some people...
> 
> are those traits associated with nerves?


Joby is right. If you live alone there's no problem with a dog that is dominant, very possesive of his toy etc but in a family with toddlers and young kids you can't always assume that the dog won't exhibit these xtics bcos its just a kid. I think there are many dutchies that will be great family dogs, they have that on/off switch and i bet there are also malis like that, different individuals in each breed.


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## Jhun Brioso (Dec 28, 2009)

I kinda agree with you Joby & tobi..


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## Chris Jones II (Mar 20, 2011)

maggie fraser said:


> If it isn't nerves Joby, what is it ? Family and young kids ?


From what I have heard these kinds of aggressive acts toward the owner, family, friends strangers ie. not during protection work, are almost always associated with fear and anxiety also referred to as "nerves."

social dominance = nerves
possession issues = very clearly nerves

dominance aggression = misnomer a dominant dog does not tend to show aggression.

is that wrong?


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Hi Chris,

I cannot see that possession issues are tantamount to nerve issues.

Can you be more expliciit?

Gill


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## Ashley Campbell (Jun 21, 2009)

I see possession issues with being insecure. I can see how that would be considered nerves, if a dog is nervous about me taking it's toy/bone/whatever away then it has a sort of fear that it won't get the item back.

Just my take on it though.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Chris Jones II said:


> From what I have heard these kinds of aggressive acts toward the owner, family, friends strangers ie. not during protection work, are almost always associated with fear and anxiety also referred to as "nerves."
> 
> social dominance = nerves
> possession issues = very clearly nerves
> ...


I think it is both right and wrong...there are many types of dogs, bred for different traits...

Problems like you describe in the first sentences can be associated with fear and anxiety, and nerves and most usually probably are with most dogs. But not all dogs.

I do not agree that social aggression and possessiveness are a nerve issue at all, I also think a "dominant" dog (subjectional term) can show aggression if not trained and handled properly.

Example...

take a strong dog from serious working lines.

this dog has no type of nerve issues in a classical sense. The dog is great in any environment, is not jumpy or spooky, has no problems with slippery floors. He works like a machine, and dominates his training agititators, brings the fight, stays in the fight regardless of close gunfire, being struck, hurt, the whole ball of wax, hunts for his toy well under all type of circumstances. 

This dog also has "dominant" traits...and it also has a degree of social(dominance in your words)aggression and possession, and is territorial..all of which can result in aggression, all of which are in my mind are
character traits nothing to do with nerves..

The same dog, is sold twice...

First to a person that has never trained or handled this type of dog...
Dog tests owner, owner does not address the situation properly, and does not know how to train or handle this type of dog. he treats it like any other pet dog he has owned...he is not equipped to handle this dog.

Anything could happen, the dog could attack him, his wife, his kids, his neighbor..could bite a visitor that comes on "his" turf. Dog could try to bite anyone that tries to reach out and pet him..might pop off at a park and go after someone for a mulitude of reasons.

Dog is not anxious or fearful of anything, he is the boss, he in not interested in being friendly with strangers, he is possessive of his things and is territorial...and has no respect for his owner..

Something bad happens, maybe many bad things happen...owner gets scared of the dog, thinks it is a nutcase and takes dog to put it down....

In the vets office is a guy that just put his 13 yr old working dog down..He strikes up conversation with the guy there to kill this crazy nutty dog he bought...Guy offers to buy the dog from its owner, does the deal and takes the dog home..

He is a person who has handled and trained many dogs of this nature. 
Dog may test him, but after the intial bonding period, never shows any real aggression to him, or open aggression towards anyone in public. Dog can interact with guys wife, kids and visitors to a degree, never bites anyone. Dog never bites any one because he is not allowed to, he never shows aggression in public..his new owner knows the dog well and handles the dog well and has control of the dog. He also does not do certain things with the dog that he is aware may cause conflict with the dog, or put dog in position where something bad could happen...Dog lives to be 13 without incident...


Would you say above dog has nerve problems? I would not. 

I would not say that the dog has *any* problems, I would say that it was a terrible idea to sell it to the first idiot who bought him.

there are many instances where a dog may show aggression outside of protection work that have nothing to do with nerves..

Go to any major breeders facility that breed sport or police type dogs that post here, walk in the place, open a kennel, and try to pet one of the stud dogs. Many, probably most of those dogs would probably try to eat you alive, and none of them probably have nerve issues.

Tell the breeder they can wait in the house while you want to look at thier dogs...

try to approach one in the exercise yard...and take it's toy out of it's mouth, or eyescrew him, give him a hug, wrestle with him, try to take it's food, or pet him while they are eating...slap a leash on him and try to do some ob with him, put him in the front seat of your car with you and yell at him or smack him if he barks at people while your driving, or starts eating your seat...throw a ball for him, if he doesnt want to give it to you, just take it out of his mouth...

better yet have your wife or kids try some of these things...
see where I am going with this? 

none of these things have anything to do with protection work.
Any one of these things can put you at serious risk. If you got bitten, would that be a problem with the dog? I think not...if you got bitten would it be because of a nerve issue ? I think not...

Difference is the breeder is not gonna let you do any of these things most likely, because they know their animals and know how to properly handle them, and how to introduce them to strangers, they know what might set the dog off, and don't put their dog in situations that might result in you being bitten.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Ashley Campbell said:


> I see possession issues with being insecure. I can see how that would be considered nerves, if a dog is nervous about me taking it's toy/bone/whatever away then it has a sort of fear that it won't get the item back.
> 
> Just my take on it though.


could be...probably is in most cases...but chew on this one for a while (maybe a bit anthropomorphic)..

I move in with you to help babysit LOL..you know I am a big softie and are not scared of me, you are not a weak person, you do not easily get nervous or anxious..you are confident and strong willed...

you eat your favorite food every day at noon...I have prepared your food for you because you are tired from the rugrats...and I am trying to make your life easier...

you are about to pick up the fork and eat this delicious meal, I reach over, take the plate and start eating it..gtell you I made it so I am gonna eat it..you might react aggressively to that. are you nervous? are you fearful? are you anxious...

the next day at noon, I make your favorite food again...
you are about to put the fork in it, I reach over and attempt to take the food. you may react aggressively before I have a chance to take it this time...are you nervous, fearful, or anxious? 

so I was not able to grab your plate and eat it all up, I then tell you I am only going to take a few bites of it and you should just give it to me, and I will give it right back...and try to take it from you. nervous? fearful? anxious.

Or this one..I buy you a brand new big screen TV when I move in...

Everyday you like to watch your dvr shows. You turn on tv, start watching the show. I grab remote out of your hand and change the channel, and say I bought the tv and dont want to watch that crap..are you nervous? fearful? anxious? aggressive?

The next day I just tell you to give me the remote cause I want to watch something real quick, and explain your shows are on the dvr and you can watch them in a little bit...so I try to take the remote, cause I did buy the TV for you after all..are you nervous? you do not give me remote you tell me to Fukk off..you dont want to give it to me...I try to take remote. are you aggressive? are you nervous anxious fearful? I told you you can have remote back after my show...

this is BS example I know...but think about it...if you were a different type of person you might be fearful or anxious or you might just tell me to fukk off and fight me it I tried to take your stuff... 

If I was a different type of person and wanted to try some or your food, or wanted to pause your show and approached it differently you might just let me....or you still might not...

so I agree somewhat. If I punched you in the face and took your food, you might not try to stop me from taking it, 

or if I took it, took one bite and gave it back, you might not get aggressive...might be annoyed but might submit to me taking it.

all of these scenarios would be influenced by how much mutual respect we had between us. and my approach of getting your food or your remote away from you, over a period of time..and might not not have anything to do with you being insecure...what if it was one of your kids trying to take your food or the remote, or your husband..would you be nervous? fearful?anxious? maybe.maybe not


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## Ashley Campbell (Jun 21, 2009)

LMAO, that makes sense Joby. However, being married twice has taught me 2 valuable things. 
1. Give up the remote, it's not worth fighting over - just let them have it
2. Kids mooch your food all the time, you get where you don't care. 

On a serious note, I get where you're coming from. Again goes back to individuality. Some dogs might react out of nervousness/fear/insecurity some may just say "**** you, this is mine".


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## milder batmusen (Jun 1, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> some dogs have great nerves and are aggressive and protective, and may not be good with a family...it is not always nerves...


I aggree but of the dogs Ive have seen are genetical not good dogs and nerv bags


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Ashley Campbell said:


> LMAO, that makes sense Joby. However, being married twice has taught me 2 valuable things.
> 1. Give up the remote, it's not worth fighting over - just let them have it
> 2. Kids mooch your food all the time, you get where you don't care.
> 
> On a serious note, I get where you're coming from. Again goes back to individuality. Some dogs might react out of nervousness/fear/insecurity some may just say "**** you, this is mine".


I think it was kinda out there, but had some value....I agree 100%.

most dogs will be just like you with the remote and food with your family...they submit easily ...some don't for one reason or another...


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

milder batmusen said:


> I aggree but of the dogs Ive have seen are genetical not good dogs and nerv bags


not surprising...there are a lot out there.


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## milder batmusen (Jun 1, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> not surprising...there are a lot out there.



I do know:razz:


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## Chris Jones II (Mar 20, 2011)

Hey Joby-

Thanks for sharing your POV. I'm going to read and nosh on it for a bit. I do see what you mean though.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Chris Jones II said:


> Hey Joby-
> 
> Thanks for sharing your POV. I'm going to read and nosh on it for a bit. I do see what you mean though.


no biggie..glad to be able to run my big mouth some...


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