# Building Confidence in udgement



## Ricardo Ashton (Jun 3, 2010)

Hi all. Just curious about what agitation techniques any of you all find effective in building confidence in a dog to be trained in PP. I find that the Koehler method does a great job of developing distrust to the general public, but it takes pretty long to complete. However the results are undeniable.


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

There are lots of ways to build confidence. Allowing the dog to overcome something that had been previously difficult, lack of eye contact by the helper, low angle entry by helper etc. Confidence should be built slowly and by degrees. Depending on the dog. If the dog is unsure about a threat your better off by starting the helper at a distance and slowly over time bringing him in closer as the dogs body language warrants. It depends on the dog being trained.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

confidence or mistrust?


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## Pete Stevens (Dec 16, 2010)

You are only as good as your helper. Low angles, blading,muzzle fights, and chase off's are all great but if your helper sucks..stay home. Personal Protection dogs are a high liabliity so I would take it very slow, lay a good solid foundation, and make sure your helper is on the same page you are. 

I'm a big fan of chase off's. The dog doesn't need to bite to win, merely let it win the battle and chasing off the threat is good. Sure, you need some bites and a good training plan but is not all about biting. I don't like the distrusting of the general public theory since that can lead to someone getting bit accidentally because the dog see the whole world as threat. Its more about having control. The dog should turn on when you tell it to. Not a big fan of PP dogs trained on passive helpers since that goes against the whole of idea of protecting against a threat. If they are passive, they are not a threat in the civilain world and you should use that passive time to flee the scene if you can.

Again, its a tool and an opinion so not everyone is going to agree.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Pete Stevens said:


> You are only as good as your helper. Low angles, blading,muzzle fights, and chase off's are all great but if your helper sucks..stay home. Personal Protection dogs are a high liabliity so I would take it very slow, lay a good solid foundation, and make sure your helper is on the same page you are.
> 
> I'm a big fan of chase off's. The dog doesn't need to bite to win, merely let it win the battle and chasing off the threat is good. Sure, you need some bites and a good training plan but is not all about biting. I don't like the distrusting of the general public theory since that can lead to someone getting bit accidentally because the dog see the whole world as threat. Its more about having control. The dog should turn on when you tell it to. Not a big fan of PP dogs trained on passive helpers since that goes against the whole of idea of protecting against a threat. If they are passive, they are not a threat in the civilain world and you should use that passive time to flee the scene if you can.
> 
> Again, its a tool and an opinion so not everyone is going to agree.


Hey Pete, good advice...but why no passive? Gotta test out the" turn on" and follow through...somehow without stimulation, or aggression...

In real life, not training, people that are dangerous are very often not very active or aggressive in their actions.


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## Ben Colbert (Mar 9, 2010)

Hey Joby,

In what situation would you (non LE) be able to have a dog bite a passive subject and not go to jail or be sued and have your dog put down?

Not being sarcastic, you know far more about PP than I do but I can not think of one.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Ben Colbert said:


> Hey Joby,
> 
> In what situation would you (non LE) be able to have a dog bite a passive subject and not go to jail or be sued and have your dog put down?
> 
> Not being sarcastic, you know far more about PP than I do but I can not think of one.


PSA has scenario's with bites on Passive decoys (or at least they did)
In real life someone could be real "passive" appearing while pointing a gun at you


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Ben Colbert said:


> Hey Joby,
> 
> In what situation would you (non LE) be able to have a dog bite a passive subject and not go to jail or be sued and have your dog put down?
> 
> Not being sarcastic, you know far more about PP than I do but I can not think of one.


My brother, who is in the National Guard and about 6'4" 240 lbs and former college football player, got robbed with a guy with a knife at an ATM who was totally passive. Walked up behind him and old him softly and calmly to give him his money or he was going to knife him. No obvious threat to most dogs. My brother thought he sounded like he could be on drugs, so he just gave him the $20 he had with him and left.


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## Pete Stevens (Dec 16, 2010)

All valid points with a passive suspect but I'm think straight liability. Yes, passive suspects can rob you but I'm seeing the sue happy lawyers really going after you when your personal protection dog tags someone who isn't acting aggressive all and not armed. We in LE train with passive suspects but we also have to articulate why we deployed the dog and most of us have policies on deployments. Plus we also have the scope of employment protection as well. I'm just thinking in the civilian world, its straight owner responsibilty for dog bites. You may not face criminal charges if your local prosecutor is satisfied but in civil court you could loose everything. 

Some responses bring up very valid points which I suppose you could sacrifice your dog to give you time to get away. I'm not very fimilair with PP case law or training methods to be consistant with case law. Does PP training have scenarios to deploy on a fleeing suspect or is it strictly for protection of the handler? Are training records kept and is there a set of standards that the dog is to be judged by? I'm very interested in learning more about this. Probably should start my own thread instead of morphing this one.


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## Ben Colbert (Mar 9, 2010)

Thomas Barriano said:


> PSA has scenario's with bites on Passive decoys (or at least they did)
> In real life someone could be real "passive" appearing while pointing a gun at you


Fair enough


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## Adam Swilling (Feb 12, 2009)

We do chase off's but we don't start with much distance. To Joby's point, I want to test the turn on and follow through of the dog. I'll usually start behind the blind and come out on the dog. If the dog turns on, I'll go in closer a little at a time. If the dog shows strong forward aggression, I'll retreat while whining like a school kid. We call it the bully game. I come out with somewhat strong body posture and if the dog bows up strong I retreat. I don't use eye contact at this level. As far as PP dogs go though, I'm not going to spend a lot of time building confidence, at least in my own dogs. It either wants to bite or doesn't. If the dog is showing me avoidance or nerve issues in training, I'm damn sure not going to trust it to defend me when the chips are down. 

The best advice I can give as far as the legal side of things is make sure you know your local and state laws pertaining to this. The rule of thumb I use is treat the dog like a loaded gun. And odds are even if you're justified in letting the dog bite, you'll end up in court proving your case.


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## Timothy Saunders (Mar 12, 2009)

Pete Stevens said:


> All valid points with a passive suspect but I'm think straight liability. Yes, passive suspects can rob you but I'm seeing the sue happy lawyers really going after you when your personal protection dog tags someone who isn't acting aggressive all and not armed. We in LE train with passive suspects but we also have to articulate why we deployed the dog and most of us have policies on deployments. Plus we also have the scope of employment protection as well. I'm just thinking in the civilian world, its straight owner responsibilty for dog bites. You may not face criminal charges if your local prosecutor is satisfied but in civil court you could loose everything.
> 
> Some responses bring up very valid points which I suppose you could sacrifice your dog to give you time to get away. I'm not very fimilair with PP case law or training methods to be consistant with case law. Does PP training have scenarios to deploy on a fleeing suspect or is it strictly for protection of the handler? Are training records kept and is there a set of standards that the dog is to be judged by? I'm very interested in learning more about this. Probably should start my own thread instead of morphing this one.


 Hi Pete I am working on this with a friend and the prosecutors office in N.j. . We are in the beginning stages but right now the basis is the same as a civilian using a gun in self defense. immediate danger of yourself or others.. For LE a dog is considered mechanical force . for a civilian it is deadly.


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## Ricardo Ashton (Jun 3, 2010)

The reason for the topic was basically i have this dog who has been trained in PP,& he's pretty good at it. Always observant of his surroundings, ready & willing to hit a decoy. But for some reason he seems to be losing confidence in his judgement while he's off leash. He'll sometimes let the decoy come in to about 3 feet without a physical reaction except for a distrustful stare. Thats why I'm thinking his confidence in his judgment may be going thru some kind of change. 

As regards the legal liabilities of owning/handling a PP dog in the event the dog attacks someone, we're all hopefully well aware of the legal ramifications, both criminal and civil. However that being said, my choice and right to own such a dog for the protection of my person and property is one I feel safe in exercising. ( BTW this is not the only PP dog in the house, my wife & daughter each have their own) If only for the fact I took the time to train my dog to do his job properly. By this I mean he was taught when to bite ,where to bite, and what to do after he has the perp in his grasp. He was taught to take the wrist that's raised,then lie down with it in his mouth & not let go,thus effectively stopping an attack and decreasing the risk of the perp running away after he's committed his crime. Only thing he's yet to finish learning is how to transport a prisoner, which is actually where his judgment is required most.(If the prisoner starts running, there's a small lag in reaction time, maybe decoy will get about 12-15' away before the chase begins.) And this is why i ask about building his confidence in his judgment, since a suspect should not be able to run away without the handler's permission. The dog should move to stop him immediately.


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## Pete Stevens (Dec 16, 2010)

If he is backing off when not on lead, maybe you could go with a long line and gradually let him out further away, eventually dropping it all together. Or go back to basics off lead and start very close and gradually work distance out.

In the People's Republic of California, our assualt with a deadly weapon laws also has in "force likely to cause great bodily injury" section. I've always argued that dogs are not guns and most case law supports it. But I can see someone getting charged with ADW for sending a dog in a non-selfdefense case.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Ricardo Ashton said:


> The reason for the topic was basically i have this dog who has been trained in PP,& he's pretty good at it. Always observant of his surroundings, ready & willing to hit a decoy. But for some reason he seems to be losing confidence in his judgement while he's off leash. He'll sometimes let the decoy come in to about 3 feet without a physical reaction except for a distrustful stare. Thats why I'm thinking his confidence in his judgment may be going thru some kind of change.


Just my opinion on the subject..everyone is different..

I think it is bad to rely on the judgement of the dog. What do you do if someone gets too close to you, that is not a threat and the dog bites?
A command should be enough to get him to bite at the appropriate time..
I personally think a PP is an extension of ME, by use of a leash outside the home or yard, unless dog is loose in the house or yard, then he ideally should attack any intruder into the property period. Unless under command/control from the owner. In the house the dog should be able to be commanded to chill, then to alert, guard, attack, whatever you choose on your command...and in my opinion should not bite just because someone is close..if someone gets close and the situation is not violent enough for dog to react on his own, then a command is used..and dog should engage on command.



Ricardo Ashton said:


> If only for the fact I took the time to train my dog to do his job properly. By this I mean he was taught when to bite ,where to bite, and what to do after he has the perp in his grasp. He was taught to take the wrist that's raised,then lie down with it in his mouth & not let go,thus effectively stopping an attack and decreasing the risk of the perp running away after he's committed his crime. Only thing he's yet to finish learning is how to transport a prisoner, which is actually where his judgment is required most.(If the prisoner starts running, there's a small lag in reaction time, maybe decoy will get about 12-15' away before the chase begins.)


I also have issues with this, again just my opinion.
When is he taught to bite? Actions? distance? commands?
And if he is taught to target the wrist of a raised hand, what if no wrist is rasied? or "perp" lifts arms out of reach?
I also would not want the dog to lay down, it would be very vulnerable, and to expect a dog to lay down in the middle of a real fight is unrealistic to me. People that get bit by a dog on the wrist may not just give up and lay down with dog holding them, unless made to or told to by a person.

I personally would have a guard, at a safe distance, the dog is ready to re-engage on command, or on movement...

In your "transport", is this when the dog bites or doesnt bite? Is it like a sport transport? I think transporting a "perp" is a bad idea as well for a PP dog, where are you transporting him to? Is dog transporting guy, or are you? In the home I would tell guy to lay down, or move him into a corner, and that is about as far as I would go, personally. And make a phone call...

If a guy is laying down as you say, and can actually get up and run 12-15 feet that is a real problem in my mind. Needs a lot of work, and where are you in all of this, is the dog expected to react on his own?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Ben,
I no longer view my dog as a PP/Guard dog, not the right living arrangement for it..but my dog will bite, if allowed or commanded to, that I am pretty sure of.

When I had my house...it was different..
My house was locked at all times, My yard was fenced and locked, my garage was locked. And I had dogs that were itching to engage someone, very territorial...

If I was to come home and find someone in my garage, I may very well have sent a dog in there. at the very least I would have had dog guard the only way out.

I realize the risks of letting a dog bite, but if I made the decision, you can be damn sure I would lie if I had to, to minimize the risk to me...

If said guy was in garage, and dog went in and attacked, then story becomes, I went in garage and guy had a pipe wrench (or anything else in garage) and came at me...

Anyone who enters my home is fair game in my book, violent or not...and regardless of what happened, the story would either be he had some type of weapon in his hand (even if I had to provide one), or that the dog reacted on its own in an instant and it could not be avoided.

If in the yard, same thing, dog did it on its own...

Not saying that would protect me from law suits or prosecution...but that is what I would do...

I have had dogs bite a few people in the past, and all have been allowed to leave on their own, and were gone before police showed up....none have filed charges or tried to sue...in one instance, mutiple people were trying to break into my house, one with a baseball bat, another with a billy club... I came out the back with dog on leash, and snuck up on them... and a couple people got bit, they all ran away..better than shooting someone I thought...people that are criminals, usually will not run to the cops if they got injured committing a crime, it does happen I realize....


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

A very active alert, from a dog that wants to bite, is best for me, unless the guy is an expert decoy or drugged out of his mind, most people are not anxious to test out a large, lunging, snarling dog at the end of a leash that is trying its best to take the fight to them....or enter a gate when a dog is chewing on it trying to get to out to attack, or enter a home with a dog chewing on the door knob, trying to open the door, or in the window showing his ugly face...

Some people like the dog to passively wait for the entry, I can see that too..but if I trained that way, it would only be to wait until guy came in the house, not wait for him to come in and then do something violent...


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

I know many politicians and the media make it sound as if people are being sued left and right, but do any of you PERSONALLY know of anyone that has been sued for more than their insurance covered?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Christopher Smith said:


> I know many politicians and the media make it sound as if people are being sued left and right, but do any of you PERSONALLY know of anyone that has been sued for more than their insurance covered?


I have a friend that was sued...his insurance did not cover it because the guy fell on the other side of the fence...he just settled for under 10,000, had to pay it himself...

I do not know anyone that has been sued other than him, and his dog did not even bite anyone...

I do know 5 people including myself, that have had dogs that have bitten people, *none* have been sued, or arrested...a couple of them had to go through the animal control BS...


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## Timothy Saunders (Mar 12, 2009)

Christopher Smith said:


> I know many politicians and the media make it sound as if people are being sued left and right, but do any of you PERSONALLY know of anyone that has been sued for more than their insurance covered?


its not that you get sue for more than the insurance will pay(they always settle) . you just can't get insurance again.(at a decent price).

If you are really in danger you are not thinking about those things. that how you know you did the right thing. if you thought about getting sued you are not in danger.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Timothy Saunders said:


> its not that you get sue for more than the insurance will pay(they always settle) . you just can't get insurance again.(at a decent price).


Here in CA they won't raise your insurance over a dog bite. They will exclude the dog from further coverage. I keep a rider on my insurance for under $300 that covers my dogs. That's with them knowing that they are "trained to attack". 

But back to my point, very few people, if anyone, is coming out of pocket for dog bites if they have insurance.


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## Ricardo Ashton (Jun 3, 2010)

Joby, to asnwer your questions, if someone is going to get close to me there is always the chance they're gonna get bit. My dogs are with me 24/7 365. I work from home and i dont have or want random visitors so if you have to get close to me, i'll have to approach you while he's in a sit. He knows how to "chill" if i say its ok, but he'll still keep an eye on whoever is around. He also knows how to go to work on command w/out an issue. A PP dog w/out an off switch is kinda counter productive in certain aspects.
My dogs are trained to respond to physical cues, an arm raised towards me, suddenly rushing towards me, suddenly lifting a tshirt or opening a jacket, and rapidly reaching a hand behind the back. 

Now you may find that for a dog to bring down a man by going into a down is unrealistic, but to each his own. He is with me 24/7 so its not like he is going to have to take a severe beating in a disadvantageous position while i run for help. He is there to help me and i him subdue an assailant.
The transport aspect is almost exactly like sport tranporting. The perp is told to go to a location & the dog follows him guarding all the way. No biting is allowed while the perp is submissive, hands down at his sides walking. If he runs the dog gets another bite.
Yes I know this is an issue. About 60% of the time he responds well if the decoy takes off. I've thought of trying using the command to get him to chase immediately, but i prefer him to know how to do it on his own, trusting his training & instinct.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Ricardo Ashton said:


> Joby, to asnwer your questions, if someone is going to get close to me there is always the chance they're gonna get bit. My dogs are with me 24/7 365. I work from home and i dont have or want random visitors so if you have to get close to me, i'll have to approach you while he's in a sit. He knows how to "chill" if i say its ok, but he'll still keep an eye on whoever is around. He also knows how to go to work on command w/out an issue. A PP dog w/out an off switch is kinda counter productive in certain aspects.
> My dogs are trained to respond to physical cues, an arm raised towards me, suddenly rushing towards me, suddenly lifting a tshirt or opening a jacket, and rapidly reaching a hand behind the back.
> 
> Now you may find that for a dog to bring down a man by going into a down is unrealistic, but to each his own. He is with me 24/7 so its not like he is going to have to take a severe beating in a disadvantageous position while i run for help. He is there to help me and i him subdue an assailant.
> ...


ok cool...it's your dog...I assume the only target is not the wrist then...correct? I would probably have the guy kick the dog as he goes to escape sometimes...or just flat out attack the dog instead of running away..or set it up where the guy charges back to you and fights with you that may help. and also would restrain dog so he does not get the bite if he is not fast enough...any of these, all of these, should make him more attentive and faster...and make it more serious for him...


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## Ricardo Ashton (Jun 3, 2010)

Joby I think you're onto something. I'll try reinforcing his distrust and delaying the bite. So if he really wants release he can't hesitate. Also the decoy i'm working with told me he saw this type of thing in one other dog, a Dobe. He said it turned out that the dog got fed up of working the sleeve & bitesuit. When it came to the time for live bites & real application he worked like a dream. Let me see how this turns out. Thanks for the ideas.


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## Peter Cho (Apr 21, 2010)

Well, here is how I see it. I see no correlation between confidence and mistrust. Confidence is what makes a PP dog. Mistrust, in my opinion, is highly undesirable in a real PP trained dog.

I will clarify. Automatic mistrust of people is HIGHLY undesirable. This is a junk yard dog, not a pp dog.

I am positive, the way Mr Koehler trained his dogs had more finess to get the results he did. It seems rather crude now, just from his book. Although a classic.

I like a super confident dog that turns ON on command. Period. I don't want him to react himself. EVER. The dog's judgement is never as good as the handler. If the dog's is better, then the owner should never have a pp dog. 

PSA at leve II does indeed have a passive bite. This is very hard to train since there is no cue. However, as stated above, the dog bites on command in perfect direction of the handler. That is the goal, isn't it? Bite in total and complete control of the HANDLER....not the dog. Dog never decides, unless DIRECT attack, as in the car jacking scenario. LOL, I remember sitting and holding a gun for the passive bite in a trial, talking nicely to the handler to give me his money. Porter, PSA III did not buy it. What a dog he was!

Building confidence......that is a huge topic. I prefer to look at *pedigree* and make sure there are no chicken sh##s in the mix. After that, the *pup never ever loses* and you set it up so he always comes out on top. Praise him/her for being a dink......after a year or so......you can start formal OB. Then you see how much real nerves and stress tolerane it has. 

Now, here is the difference between a pet and a dog being groomed for protection work. Personally, i teach my pups that _it can over power even me_................._*when doing the right things*_......like biting deeper, harder, pulling back harder....remember, you are the decoy when playing with your pup. I get stronger if it bites are poor or the bites are chewey. Do that EVERY day, twice a day, with great acting, you get confidence. Sure, you get a super pushy, pugnatious little prick, but that is what you want, until formal OB comes. By then, this conditioning is imprinted in its little brain. 

*To me, that is confidence.......going back to the foundations of the pup's imprinting*. fight harder when pressure comes. it can never loose. 

jmo


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## Ricardo Ashton (Jun 3, 2010)

Peter,you may not see a co-relation between confidence & distrust, but its there none the less. The thing is a PP dog should not trust every tom,dick& jenny he sees, simply because that would be counter-productive to his work. After a while of working & training a dog in different situations,the dog should be able to discern to a degree who's a threat and who isn't. This is where confidence in judgment comes into play.
Now you say youlike a super confident dog that goes to work on command,has a solid bite,outs on command & theres nothing wrong with that. But a dog who cannot observe and discern a threat in a PP scenario is only going to be partially effective.
Confidence in bite work is relatively simple to achieve witha good helper once you have a good prospect to work with. But developing a dogs confidence in his ability to discern a threat among the innocents is a bit more difficult.
For example, lets say you're walking down a street with about 50 people on either sidewalk. Street isnt too crowded. In the distance there's a man who looks highly suspect. A PP dog should be able to see the same man & make at least a similar observation. Not go after the man because of his looks(thats a lawsuit waiting to happen), but to observe him and see if he does anything that an assailant would do. Thats the purpose of developement of the dogs judgment, for him to be observant and ready to react to a threat with or without a command. Because a PP dog that will only react solely on command will not in all situations be totally reliable. JMHO


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Peter Cho said:


> Well, here is how I see it. I see no correlation between confidence and mistrust. Confidence is what makes a PP dog. Mistrust, in my opinion, is highly undesirable in a real PP trained dog.


It really depends on the household dynamics and lifestyle, but tend to agree with you for a family with multiple handlers.


Peter Cho said:


> I will clarify. Automatic mistrust of people is HIGHLY undesirable. This is a junk yard dog, not a pp dog.


Again depends on situation, and function. If dog is expected to guard or protect stuff on its own, it has to have mistrust.
A dog that is territorial, socially aggressive, dominant, CAN be a junkyard dog, or can be a well trained protection dog, if effective Obedience and Control are used...obviously more of a liability than a social dog, but has its place....


Peter Cho said:


> I like a super confident dog that turns ON on command. Period. I don't want him to react himself. EVER. The dog's judgement is never as good as the handler. If the dog's is better, then the owner should never have a pp dog.


I agree if I am present, and handling the dog, but if I am not present, or am asleep in my bed, I would expect dog to react on it's own...


Peter Cho said:


> PSA at leve II does indeed have a passive bite. This is very hard to train since there is no cue. However, as stated above, the dog bites on command in perfect direction of the handler. That is the goal, isn't it? Bite in total and complete control of the HANDLER....not the dog. Dog never decides, unless DIRECT attack, as in the car jacking scenario. LOL, I remember sitting and holding a gun for the passive bite in a trial, talking nicely to the handler to give me his money. Porter, PSA III did not buy it. What a dog he was!


PSA is a sport, a PP dog can be a sport dog, but does not have to be..
Training a dog to bite a person, any person, passive or active, is not really difficult if the dog likes to bite, and sees a bitesuit. I would say hidden equipment and muzzle work is much more telling, than a dog biting a suit or sleeve, I think PSA is great, don't get me wrong, but it is a sport, but a dog biting a passive decoy in a suit, in psa is not really all that impressive...especially from a psa 3 dog, that should be a given....


Peter Cho said:


> Building confidence......that is a huge topic. I prefer to look at *pedigree* and make sure there are no chicken sh##s in the mix. After that, the *pup never ever loses* and you set it up so he always comes out on top. Praise him/her for being a dink......after a year or so......you can start formal OB. Then you see how much real nerves and stress tolerane it has...


It is not really neccessary to have a pedigree on a dog to be used for protection, but it can help.. PP dogs are not neccessarily like sport dogs. high prey is not needed in a pp dog for the most part, PP does not need high degree of formal obedience neccessarily, main goal should be control. I would test the nerves and stress tolerance in fighting agitators that intend to hurt the dog, not by doing obedience..that is just me though...sport dogs are rarely ever "tested", as it can effect thier performance on the sport field if they are hurt.



Ricardo Ashton said:


> Peter,you may not see a co-relation between confidence & distrust, but its there none the less. The thing is a PP dog should not trust every tom,dick& jenny he sees, simply because that would be counter-productive to his work. After a while of working & training a dog in different situations,the dog should be able to discern to a degree who's a threat and who isn't. This is where confidence in judgment comes into play.
> 
> Now you say youlike a super confident dog that goes to work on command,has a solid bite,outs on command & theres nothing wrong with that. But a dog who cannot observe and discern a threat in a PP scenario is only going to be partially effective.


I think relying on a dog to recognize a threat when there is not an obvious threat is unrealistic. If the dog is untrusting, he will eye everyone as a possible threat, which he should if that is the goal, the engagement comes from cues in training, and would come from some sort of cue in real life. What type of scenarios are you talkign about where the dog would have to discern a threat? just curious


Ricardo Ashton said:


> For example, lets say you're walking down a street with about 50 people on either sidewalk. Street isnt too crowded. In the distance there's a man who looks highly suspect. A PP dog should be able to see the same man & make at least a similar observation. Not go after the man because of his looks(thats a lawsuit waiting to happen), but to observe him and see if he does anything that an assailant would do. Thats the purpose of developement of the dogs judgment, for him to be observant and ready to react to a threat with or without a command. Because a PP dog that will only react solely on command will not in all situations be totally reliable. JMHO


A pp dog that is untrusting should be ready to engage anyone, not pick out someone that looks highly suspect. What does a highly suspect person look like??? and if dog is picking out people by their looks, he might miss the real threat, which did not look like a threat..what would a threat be, in your example, that would warrant the dog to react on his own? i would want my dog to be observant to everyone around me, not specific people...I would think any good PP dog would react if someone actually assaulted the handler. in what other situations would you want a dog to engage on its own, on a sidewalk with 50 people on it?


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## Peter Cho (Apr 21, 2010)

Jobe said. "but it is a sport, but a dog biting a passive decoy in a suit, in psa is not really all that impressive...especially from a psa 3 dog, that should be a given...."

Well, I will agree to disagree with you Jobe. To me, that is THE most impressive thing in PSA, imo.
Absolulte control and what it took, as a trainer and handler team, to accomplish that control. I see the quality of training and the clarit of the dog. Amazing.
That is why they only do it partially in PSA II and definitely in the III. 

I do see PSA, ring, and sch as a "trainer" sport. PP is practicality at its core. 

Ricardo, 

All I am saying is, when you talk to some lawyers of the client (executives mainly), control of the dog is a HUGE issue. Pre and post sales. And especially after a bite, as a trainer of the dog, you better show that dog is not a lose cannon.......*reacting on its own*.........especially if it has been shown to be trained in bitework, no matter how little it has had that form of training. 

So, going back to the original post. In real life, not in the movies, where nobody goes to court for a dog bite, do you think a judge is going to like a dog that is instantly mistrustful and shows aggression with no provocation? I will answer that one from real life. NO. 

I think mistrust works best for very naive pet dogs that clients want to act as an alarm dog or warning dog, with no bite work. 

PP is all aobut a dog that is WITH a client, alot, in public places especailly. So, do I want a dog that is mistrustful of everyone?


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I've just skimmed through the posts (as usual) but quite honestly wonder how one can "build confidence" into a dog, i.e. any dog??

The only way in my mind, is to select an outgoing pup from a good breeder. It's possible. 

The dog has to be A1 physically, so that you know that there will be no complications that you cannot fathom why he is maybe refuisng exercises.

The pup must be left to overcome his own fears, and here the work is probably often too complicated for many a handler.

What's not there in the first place, i.e. confident nature, natural distrust (dogs often "sense" danger before humans do), then it is not worth the bother.

Qiuite honestly, if I have to "tell" my dog to bite when I'm endangered, then......

Luckily, I have had and have dogs that I felt / feel I could / can place "my confidence" in them.They were and are normally "drugged up dogs", but selected for health, temperament and outgoingness, and were / are various breeds.

Before you start to comment, I am aware that faced with a gunner, we would have no chance.


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