# Pushing in tug work



## Ted White (May 2, 2006)

Interesting comments in the Bitework section about getting a pup to "push" during "tug" work.

Also interesting thoughts from from Jeff in that thread to get in with some experienced people asap, not when the dog is 9 months old. That's my current scramble.

Seleena was kind enough to ask Dick about his thoughts on encouraging this:

QUOTE: "If you're playing with the sleeve, slowly move backworths. Puppy doesn´t want to loose the sleeve and will push, when pushing, puppy may win the sleeve.

If puppy is pulling, never EVER let the puppy win the sleeve, you will reinforce the pulling. If puppy is pulling, slowly go backwards untill puppy pushes, let puppy win the sleeve. "

This was a real lightbulb for me. I am not doing this currently, but it sure makes sense. Does anyone else work with young pups this way?


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

I did it with Jessie, and it does work to encourage pushing, but her bite was never that strong. I don't know if it was just _her_, or if it was a result of never playing 'tug' with her. For me, it was a bit of a pain, because I was constantly having to keep moving back/away from her to keep her engaged, instead of being able to go back and forth and pull and push the tug or whatever, and backtie work was difficult, too, because she'd choke herself off trying to push into the bite.

Jak has a strong bite, and was encouraged to pull, but if I do the walking backwards thing with him, he will counter and push in some.


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

Thats along the lines of what I do with my pups.

Lyka is a puller though.


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## Ted White (May 2, 2006)

Interesting. Haven't seen this (or at least I'm not remembering) on the "videos."

Is it safe to say that pushing is more desirable than pulling for PP work?


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

I was never convinced about the pushing thing until I felt a dog that pushed. Now I don't understand pulling, but in Sch they like a dog that holds on or pulls, because a pushing dog looks chewy on the sleeve as he slightly opens his mouth to dig in deeper.

In PP, a dog that pushes is more likely to bite the bad guys limb and not just bite and tug on the clothing, and it hurts like heck LOL.


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## Ted White (May 2, 2006)

Well there you have it. I'm switching gears to reward pushing.


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Mike Schoonbrood said:


> I was never convinced about the pushing thing until I felt a dog that pushed. Now I don't understand pulling, but in Sch they like a dog that holds on or pulls, because a pushing dog looks chewy on the sleeve as he slightly opens his mouth to dig in deeper.
> 
> In PP, a dog that pushes is more likely to bite the bad guys limb and not just bite and tug on the clothing, and it hurts like heck LOL.


only for sore for a day or 3 ;-) :lol: 

@ kirsten, while encouraging puppy to pull we learn the command "vast".
Vast (litterly translated: hold on) means: get/bite it/him and push bite. 
We work a lot on the way of biting and keep on doing it through all traininglife. 
Dogs also learn-in a later stage- that if you get hurt (hit or beaten), put your anger in your pushbite.

Mike and Tim knows (and felt) which effect that gives in a bite :mrgreen:


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## Johan Dekinder (Sep 17, 2007)

Here in Belgium (and guess in most other countries) Schutz/IPO-people go for "pull". A "pusher" in Schutz will always lose valuable points, always.
Ring, Mondio, PP, Police, all prefer "pushers"..


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## Ted White (May 2, 2006)

Good clarification, Johan. Since I'm looking for PP work, I've moved on to pushing. 

I'm glad I read this in another thread.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Interesting comments. If the puppy is pulling on the tug and doesn't have a full bite, do you dead prey the tug? Will it counter by rebiting? How much stress is it under from the handler and decoy?


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

We do a lot of countering with puppies if they get a shallow bite. Depends on the pup whether the tug goes dead. We put no stress on puppies until they show a willingness to take it. That, again, depends on the pup.


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## Hoyt Yang (Dec 26, 2007)

I've always thought that this was genetic, and it's interesting to learn that it can be taught to the young dog as this thread suggests. My current malinois is the only dog I've had that actually 'pushes' in for a deeper bite. I have a video of him in the 'video gallery section,' and it shows him constantly pushing forward for a deeper bite. What's interesting is that during tug work, he will actually 'hug' and latch on to my front leg with both paws while pushing into the tug. I encourage it by giving some resistance and then backing up everytime I feel him pushing in deeper. The tug is all the way back in his rear molars at this point, and I can feel him putting alot of pressure on it. Since I wasn't the initial person to teach the dog this, I will have to ask his breeder if this was taught to him, or if this is natural/genetic.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

A deap bite can very well be genetic. Stress can destroy it though. It can also be taught, if not in the genes, but will fall apart faster under stress.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

I agree Bob...stress in young puppies can kill drive. Yes, in many cases I have found that it can be genetic, the willingness to go after things in prey, like a Lab picks up objects and carries them.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

The push can also be genetic or taught. Sport often dictates which is desirable. Schutzhund wants the pull. Ring wants the push. (generalizing)


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Lost my train of thought! Young senior period of duh!!!!

We do alot of puppy training and do so through the teething period. Their gums bleed when they eat and naturally check out new things with their mouth. But you don't withhold food because of it. Bite work and targeting are no different. You just don't yank and crank on young teeth. Any training director who does that really doesn't have a clue. 

Stress on anything can shut down natural drives, conversely, any type of praise can build them to Superman levels.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Agreed on the teething period. The strike can still be worked on without the pulling. I have seen a few pups that are sensitive to even refusing a hard strike during teething, but it's rare.


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

@ Hoyt, a big part is genetic, but you can learn a natural puller to push (even when they're older) and a natural pusher to pull :wink: by reinforcing the wanted behaviour.


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## Will Kline (Jan 10, 2008)

> We do alot of puppy training and do so through the teething period. Their gums bleed when they eat and naturally check out new things with their mouth. But you don't withhold food because of it. Bite work and targeting are no different. You just don't yank and crank on young teeth. Any training director who does that really doesn't have a clue.


Very well said Howard!


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Thanks Will and welcome to the "pack!" Hope to see great things from you and learn from the posts.


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## Catalina Valencia (Feb 20, 2008)

Then how can I know if a pup is a natural pusher or puller?


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Catalina Valencia said:


> Then how can I know if a pup is a natural pusher or puller?



As the naming implies one dog would fight the tug and pull by usually hunkering down and arching its back and repeating the pulling motion on the tug. 

The pusher in its fight for the tug will try to swallow the tug and keeps moving forward into the tug sometimes trying to regrip to get more of the tug into its mouth. 

Most young dogs are pullers at first and find out that they can push into the tug or suit comes out during confidence building exercises. A dog that pushes uses its energy more efficiently from what I see.


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Geoff Empey said:


> As the naming implies one dog would fight the tug and pull by usually hunkering down and arching its back and repeating the pulling motion on the tug.
> 
> The pusher in its fight for the tug will try to swallow the tug and keeps moving forward into the tug sometimes trying to regrip to get more of the tug into its mouth.
> 
> Most young dogs are pullers at first and *find out that they can push into the tug or suit comes out during confidence building exercises*. A dog that pushes uses its energy more efficiently from what I see.


Not always.. Dushi came here when she was 7 wks old, never did biting games. First time she saw a puppysleeve was at our garden, when she was arrived 15 min before, she bit and pushed inmediatly (same for her brother). Some dogs just do it naturally...a great part is genatically, at least from our dogs. 
I see even the puppies here, tomorrow 4 wks, who pushes when they're playing with eachother.


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