# Your preference in training...asking or telling the dog.



## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Ok so this has been in my mind since I became a member on WDF....

In buying or training dogs which has your preference ? When buying a dog would you prefer a dog that would do as you asked of it or would you prefer a dog that did as it was told ?

As a trainer in whatever sports you may be involved in whould you train the dog by asking ? coaching its behaviour in the direction you want it to go or would you demand its compliance ?

What I am getting at is this...I see it all more often around me, including on this forum, people training dogs by asking them to do things for them instead of telling them to do it regardless....which way do you think is a better working way and why ? Do you think your way is a more secure way to train the dog? and do you think it builds character or subtracts from it in some way ?

Im not starting this topic to stir any BS convo's on here so i would like to not see them occur (if it can be helped) Im trying to get an insight into both ways of training and why either would be beneficial in training and eventualy selling your dog.

Please lets keep the topic reasonable nice and clean 


I dont think I have to explain on which side I stand when it comes to asking versus telling...I will in a young dog ask it to do things for me but as soon as becomes clear it understands what i am asking from it there is no more asking i will demand regardless. For me in my view and experiance this will build a more secure and strong dog with a good character who can take what you throw at it...i dont think demanding subtracts anything as long as you keep your head on straight and look at the dog to start with...its all proportional to the dog infront of you and not to what you think should be right...no dog is the same after all. A dog that knows things are demanded from it will be less inclined to leave you hanging then a dog that is asked to do something for you....in my view asking leaves the dog a choice to do or not do what you ask...demanding leaves no room for the dog, it has to do or deal with the consequences.


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Alice Bezemer said:


> Ok so this has been in my mind since I became a member on WDF....
> 
> In buying or training dogs which has your preference ? When buying a dog would you prefer a dog that would do as you asked of it or would you prefer a dog that did as it was told ?
> 
> ...


It depends on what exercise it is and the individual dog. With my male I ask him to retrieve the object (his drive is excellent so he happily goes out after the object), yet I have to tell him to give it back to me as his drive is excellent and he is very possesive and is motivated by his own desires and not mine.


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## Mike Jones (Jan 22, 2009)

This is my opinion and I'm going to keep it short for now due to time constraints. A dog is an animal and you tell it what you want and your communication should be clear without conflict. You tell a dog what behavior you want it to perform. You cannot ask a dog to do anything because they cannot answer...LOL :-D 

Ok, on the serious side my dogs do not have a option to not perform they must perform. Asking a dog to do something gives them the option of performing or not performing or doing it their way versus your way. 

For example when I throw the dumbbell the dog must retrieve it and come back quickly and sit straight. He does not have the option of not picking up that dumbbell or sitting crooked because there are repercussions for non-performance.


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## Mike Lauer (Jul 26, 2009)

i guess i ask puppies while i lead them around with food, 
but I never ask a dog to do anything, i tell him and make him or all hell breaks loose
which is why i have so many problems with sensitive dogs


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Mike Lauer said:


> i guess i ask puppies


I'd agree with puppies as I try persuading them to learn with something that motivates and is fun, but as they are older I think I also agree with Alice about demanding the response. I really do my best to keep the learning phase fun and interesting without corrections. But then again I think about SCH and how trying to get tight turns and how it can be done with ball placement(asking) or quick pops. I think too much of a correction doing something like this would make the turns not so nice. I guess it's a finesse thing in SCH obedience to try and get a certain picture. Where as in many ring sports and KNPV it really doesn't matter how "pretty" they look doing it, just do it when I tell you to! Not to mention there is more biting in these sports so there seems to be other things to work on that are very demanding and need compliance immediately.


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Of coarse I'm not saying SCH isn't demanding nor a lack of compliance needed


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

I don't want to ask or tell. I want to allow. I want to train my dog and have him in the right state of mind so that he understands his job and is trying to do it. I just queue him when he is allowed to do his job.


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

After my dogs learn the behavior they are to do as told . 

Asking offers an option to chose not to do it . Kind of like the dispatchers at my job . I use to ask them to do something for me concerning a call I was going on because I thought it was the polite thing to do , until they started saying no . Now I just tell them to do it and it gets done no problems .


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## Mike Jones (Jan 22, 2009)

Jim Nash said:


> After my dogs learn the behavior they are to do as told .
> 
> Asking offers an option to chose not to do it . Kind of like the dispatchers at my job . I use to ask them to do something for me concerning a call I was going on because I thought it was the polite thing to do until they started saying no . Now I just tell them to do it and it gets done no problems .


I agree 100%. I teach a dog a new behavior using motivation. Once the dog anticipates and really understands what I want, I then start correcting the dog's malfeasance. Performance in my book is a requirement not an option. If the dog is performing the command correctly than I reward that behavior with food, a toy or lots of praise (depending upon the situation) but, if the dog refuses to perform or does so incorrectly he gets a firm but fair correction. I never over correct or do so out of anger.=; 

The problem that a lot of people have is that they over do it and take the malfeasance personally. Once the dog performs the behavior correctly, I immediately reward the correct behavior by freeing him up with his ball. I always end my training on a good note because I want the last thing that my dog remembers is the correct behavior.

I don't believe that telling a dog to perform means that it done with force. I believe that telling a dog to perform set clear boundaries on what is acceptable.

EX: If you open the front door and you ask the dog to sit and does not feel like it that day and instead runs out the door and gets hit by a car; then I guess he made the choice to do so and now you have to buy a new dog. #-o


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

I don't really get this ask vs tell thing. I just need some clarification.

Let's say I say *sit* to my dog. How do you know if I am "asking" it or "telling" it to sit....if it sits? 

Are you talking about what I do if it DOESN'T follow a command? Because that is different to me.

Or, are you talking about the TONE of voice I use when I give a command? Quiet would be "asking", barking would be "telling"?

Or, are you saying that you employ a correction when you give a dog a command? For example, you say "sit" at the same time as pulling up on the pinch lets say, this way the dog has no choice as the correction is comming anyway?


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Jennifer Coulter said:


> I don't really get this ask vs tell thing. I just need some clarification.
> 
> Let's say I say *sit* to my dog. How do you know if I am "asking" it or "telling" it to sit....if it sits?
> 
> ...


For me it is a tone of voice thing that conveys to the dog either confidence or uncertainty in the handler. Because from my experiance most handlers I have helped in training ,the ones who give a command for a certain behavior in a calm no nonsence manner are usually more consistant in backing that command up if the dog refuses to do it . The handlers I see that give a command in a tone that sounds like they are asking a question are less likely to be consistant in enforcing that command if the dog refuses to do it and are the ones with dogs that are having more problems with the dog consistantly obeying commands . 

Lets face it most of the time tone of voice is conveying what we are really feeling . If the handler gives the command in a questioning manner the handler is usually conveying it's expectations at the time and that's " Are you going to do what I ask or not ? " . That usually shows the handlers has doubts and is uncertain . 

The flip side is the handlers I see giving commands in calm , clear authorative tone are usually showing there true feelings at the time in that they expect the dog to obey the command . Usually the handlers are certain because they have had consistancy in the past with correct behaviors from the dog when told to do something . 

Simply put in my experiance , the handlers I see that give a command in a questioning tone are projecting their uncertainty , in what the dog will do when asked and uncertainty in how they will handle the situation if the dog doesn't do what the handler wanted them to do .


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Jennifer Coulter said:


> I don't really get this ask vs tell thing. I just need some clarification.
> 
> Let's say I say *sit* to my dog. How do you know if I am "asking" it or "telling" it to sit....if it sits?
> 
> ...


Ok how to explain this lol...

First of trust me...tone of voice and bodylanguage show clearly what you are asking of or telling to your dog...make no mistake in that. When you go to the front door and say sit to your dog and it doesnt...do you then A) take the dog by the leash walk back and try again giving the sit command ? without correction but by lets say repeating the command...putting a hand on its but and pushing it down a bit or maybe say...ahwell to bad, better luck next time or do you B) say sit and if he doesnt you pop his collar or give him a nudge with your foot or basicly correct him physicly ?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

I say punch the dog in the the head,,and if you get bit it is because you are drunk  (DISCLAIMER: i AM DRUNK right now)


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## Tommy O'Hanlon (Feb 21, 2008)

teach the dog how to do what you and then it becomes black and white, its another reason not to start a pup to young because if you teach it a behaviour and it does not comply it might be too young to correct fully and you are then introducing the gambling habit into its head, i have an 8/9 month old pup at the minute who is quite possessive and i would love to teach it to "out" but in my opinion i can't as he would not be strong enough to take the necessary correction,
Tommy


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> I say punch the dog in the the head,,and if you get bit it is because you are drunk  (DISCLAIMER: i AM DRUNK right now)


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## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

Tommy O'Hanlon said:


> teach the dog how to do what you and then it becomes black and white, its another reason not to start a pup to young because if you teach it a behaviour and it does not comply it might be too young to correct fully and you are then introducing the gambling habit into its head, i have an 8/9 month old pup at the minute who is quite possessive and i would love to teach it to "out" but *in my opinion i can't as he would not be strong enough to take the necessary correction*,
> Tommy


We usually teach them the "out" on the suit between 6 and 8mths of age, so I don't see a problem if you build the correction the right way.

On topic: Once the dogs know the exercise, they aren't asked but told to do it


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## Tommy O'Hanlon (Feb 21, 2008)

Martine would be very interested to know how you go about teaching the out as i am very cautious about doing it at a young age but at the same time it would be nice to do when they are younger so the big fight might not happen so to speak
thanks
Tommy


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## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

Tommy O'Hanlon said:


> Martine would be very interested to know how you go about teaching the out as i am very cautious about doing it at a young age but at the same time it would be nice to do when they are younger so the big fight might not happen so to speak
> thanks
> Tommy


First we work with a tug as a reward. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jLlTb71tcas

Next stage the dog gets a leather collar around his belly (to make him get used to the belly collar)
We continue with the tug as a reward.

After a few trainings, we attach a long line to that collar and it goes between the back legs while he's biting. We call him out and at the same time, someone (standing behind the dog at the end of the line) gives a short hard pull to that line so he "flies out" and then he immediately gets his reward.
Next stage is the belly ecollar.


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## Tommy O'Hanlon (Feb 21, 2008)

Martine thank you very much, your time and expertise is much appreciated, love the idea of the leather collar round the belly would never have thought of it in a millon years! Re the tug to get him to out it do you just choke him off it until he gets the idea and what sort of age do you guys introduce the belly collar and do you teach ecollar work before the belly collar? Sorry for all the questions
thanks
Tommy


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> I say punch the dog in the the head,,and if you get bit it is because you are drunk  (DISCLAIMER: i AM DRUNK right now)


\
I always assume that your drunk Joby.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

I shoot first and ask later, If that doesn't work I do what Joby recommends. If that doesn't work last resort is helicopter the dog ten times or so. Then bring him back in the house and put him in time out in a dark closet.

Sorry Alice for my outburst, proceed :wink:


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## Jeff Threadgill (Jun 9, 2010)

I tell my dog, don't ask. 

Like the other morning I told him to go get the paper, he did, however he chewed the shit out of it before he got back with it. So I said ok, and sat down with my coffee and acted like nothing happened. I win. Jerk!


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Jeff Threadgill said:


> I tell my dog, don't ask.
> 
> Like the other morning I told him to go get the paper, he did, however he chewed the shit out of it before he got back with it. So I said ok, and sat down with my coffee and acted like nothing happened. I win. Jerk!


That's how the clicker trainers "win". :grin:


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## Ashley Campbell (Jun 21, 2009)

Well, thinking about it, my dogs get told what to do. I don't ask. If my male tries to run out the front door when I'm coming in with a load of groceries, I tell him back...if he doesn't back up, he gets shoved/booted back inside the door - depending on how full my arms are. If he tries to drag me on the leash, he gets told to heel, if he doesn't, there are consequences. So yeah, I pretty much tell them and they have to answer for it if they don't oblige.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Seems to me that a command is a command ... not a question.

I use marker training. It's a method for teaching a new behavior. Marker training does not in itself rule out either proofing for distractions and venue, etc., or correcting if necessary.

It's kind of strange how "markers," "clickers," and "no corrections" are often so mixed up together, no matter what the actual trainer may say or do. Some folks use markers and no corrections, but "marker training" doesn't _mean_ "no corrections" or "no proofing." MHO, of course. :lol:




It's hard to picture Jeff T. training a retrieve (with markers or not) that results in a chewed-up retrieve item, delivered after the dog has thoroughly enjoyed it under the porch and is now tired of it. :lol: 

"Here. I don't like this raggedy old item any more. Give me something new to chew on."


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Christopher Smith said:


> .... I always assume that your drunk Joby.



:lol: :lol:


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Ashley Campbell said:


> Well, thinking about it, my dogs get told what to do. I don't ask. If my male tries to run out the front door when I'm coming in with a load of groceries, I tell him back...if he doesn't back up, he gets shoved/booted back inside the door - depending on how full my arms are. If he tries to drag me on the leash, he gets told to heel, if he doesn't, there are consequences. So yeah, I pretty much tell them and they have to answer for it if they don't oblige.



Sounds about right. :lol:

I train and then proof and then require compliance.


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## Lynn Cheffins (Jul 11, 2006)

ask 
insist
compell


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## Jeff Threadgill (Jun 9, 2010)

Basically I think the way it shakes out is this.

Dogs have no reason beside animal instinct. I tell them what I want. They deliver by rewarding them. Whatever they are doing they are looking for the payoff. I'f Dekx indicates half ass on a drug search, I don't pay him and we re-do it. When we do building searches, they will start barking before they find the decoy they are expecting the decoy to jump out and they don't have. To really search. He doesn't get "paid" with the bite. Dogs have the ability to "know what's next especially during training , but if I ask him to find the suspect, he will take the short cut. After he don't get the reward they learn they have to actually find the guy. I tell them what I want with a reward to confirm it. A dog will Chase a ball with instinct, to bring it back is human influence. 

We put hamburgers and different food and toys on tracks, however he knows that at the end his reward will be greater than that momentary reward. And I would put my foot in his ass lmao.

Basically I tell the dog what i want, and reward the compliance.


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Martine Loots said:


> First we work with a tug as a reward.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jLlTb71tcas
> 
> ...


Martine is that technique using the tug to teach the out initially a common thing where you are ? Are there any criticisms about it in your training circles ? 

There is alot of criticism about that technique in PSD training circles over here . I'm not one of the critics . 

I find it interesting that some of those over here that think it will harm a PSD candidate if trained intitially to out like that may actually have a dog with foundational work in the out using that training .


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## jack van strien (Apr 9, 2009)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d1X55b6t-UM
Does this say anything about voice control?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

that is voice control..probably no bitework involved, but the same drive level...
impressive..
(not drunk)


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## David Ruby (Jul 21, 2009)

I was thinking about this dog & handler David Hartwig and Skidboot (I forget their names until I saw it on one of the related videos, but the guy's been on Letterman and a ton of other stuff).



jack van strien said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d1X55b6t-UM
> Does this say anything about voice control?



Personally, I guess I "tell" the dog to do something, but I try to approach it from (or strive to reach) a partnership level. I just say what I want them to do firm enough or with their name in front of said command so they know I'm not just chatting with my wife or something and that it's an actual command, then they do it. Ultimately, the dog is going to do it, it is just a matter of making it worth it to the dog. I guess I view it as sort of laying out the rules and the consequences/rewards so they (for lack of a better word) come to the conclusion it's just better to do it since they get the reward faster (praise, food, toy, whatever) and I'm just going to keep correcting or making them do it until they get it right. Still, the way I was taught was to get it across to the dog that they realize they are going to have to do it eventually, just that it's both something positive when they do it and that really it's just easier for them to just do it in the first place. I'm not sure if that's more shaping behavior or just berating the dog and badgering them until they do it. Wow, I sound like my wife. :-\"

Granted, with some of the dogs some of you have I am sure I'd probably have to do things differently, and I am not pretending to be some super accomplished guy. I will say that I do tend to prefer dogs that, even if stubborn, ultimately like to work with you rather than a hard headed dog that constantly tells you "F-off, make me" when you tell them to do something. So I have learned to "tell" dogs to do things, but more of how you tell your buddy to do something. It's not pleading with the dog, it's not barking orders. They are still dogs but I try (and with the dogs I've been around and prefer, with a clear set of rules, rewards, and expectations, thus far it's worked) to have a casual yet firm & expectant relationship. Kind of like how I do with my daughter in a way (sans correction collars).

I DO think there is something I could learn by watching David & Skidboot. Maybe it just speaks to how I view dogs, and I am not sure if David H. was _asking_ or _telling_ Skidboot what to do, but that really is the kind of relationship and atmosphere I strive to achieve with a dog.

-Cheers

P.S. For what it's worth, my wife asks my dog to do everything. It's annoying. She listens to me (my dog, not my wife), but she'll sometimes ignore my wife. With my wife though, it's totally the pitiful "it'd be awful nice if you did this, but really, we both know I don't care all _that_ much." Then when she really wants the dog to "Sit" or "Down" she gets mad that the dog doesn't always do it. Not sure if I'm _telling_ the dog more, just that our relationship is built differently and the expectations are not quite the same. With me, the dog knows I won't ask her to do something unless I really want her to do it, and it has to be pretty clear to both of us. Nothing special, but it is funny to see the same dog react to the same command differently in the same house from two different people she lives with.


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## Shade Whitesel (Aug 18, 2010)

I like Christopher Smith's answer, "I allow". If my dog is in the right drive, I have the right motivation, or I have conditioned a delayed reward enough for the right motivation, He does it anyway. I've just taught him the green light of when to do whichever behavior and then it's just a matter of proofing distractions. 
For my dogs it's not a matter of asking or telling, it's when do they get to do what they what to do anyway. In bitework and obedience anyway. Chasing the cat might be a different example. But even then, it's don't chase the cat,chase your ball instead. So you could consider that telling if you wanted, but I might call it channelling.


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## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

Tommy O'Hanlon said:


> Martine thank you very much, your time and expertise is much appreciated, love the idea of the leather collar round the belly would never have thought of it in a millon years! Re the tug to get him to out it do you just choke him off it until he gets the idea and what sort of age do you guys introduce the belly collar and do you teach ecollar work before the belly collar? Sorry for all the questions
> thanks
> Tommy


Your dog has to know the tug and like it a lot. Then, when he's biting and you want him to "out", you hold the tug so he can see it and at the same time you call him off and the decoy stops working. When he lets go and takes the tug, you praise him and you play with him.
Then you make him used to a leather collar around his waist (without using it) for a few trainings.
When the dog is very at ease when biting (not earlier) you attach the long line and let someone pull it when you call him off (decoy stops working). When he lets go you praise him and let him bite the tug.
Then you move to the next stage which is the belly collar. Important is that he knows his reward (tug) very wel so immediately after the punishment he knows that he did the right thing.

There is no real "age" on which to introduce the belly collar. You have to observe your dog. It should be done when he's mature enough and for some dogs this means 6 months (exceptional) for others it means 12 months. Important is that your dog is at ease and confident in his work before moving to the next stage. As long as a dog doesn't feel at ease, it's too early because it could break his confidence.



Jim Nash said:


> *Martine is that technique using the tug to teach the out initially a common thing where you are *? Are there any criticisms about it in your training circles ?
> 
> There is alot of criticism about that technique in PSD training circles over here . I'm not one of the critics .
> 
> I find it interesting that some of those over here that think it will harm a PSD candidate if trained intitially to out like that may actually have a dog with foundational work in the out using that training .


It's a common technique over here, yes.
But you should take into account that this is not the way the out is "taught". It's a basic method to guide the pup to the stage where real pressure will be applied.
When building a pup, it will out for his tug in the initial stage of the training but very soon this won't be enough anymore. The decoy will be a much bigger reward then any kind of tug and then the time has come to apply real pressure. BUT the importance of that basic building with the tug is that at the moment you punish, you can immediately redirect the dog to the reward he got to know initially.

I can understand the criticism of the PSD trainers and I would agree with them if a dog could be trained all the way only using the tug reward. Because this would mean it was a soft dog. A strong dog needs more but the fact he knows that reward will help you a lot when you have to apply real pressure at a later stage of the training.


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Martine Loots said:


> Your dog has to know the tug and like it a lot. Then, when he's biting and you want him to "out", you hold the tug so he can see it and at the same time you call him off and the decoy stops working. When he lets go and takes the tug, you praise him and you play with him.
> Then you make him used to a leather collar around his waist (without using it) for a few trainings.
> When the dog is very at ease when biting (not earlier) you attach the long line and let someone pull it when you call him off (decoy stops working). When he lets go you praise him and let him bite the tug.
> Then you move to the next stage which is the belly collar. Important is that he knows his reward (tug) very wel so immediately after the punishment he knows that he did the right thing.
> ...



Nope , they aren't trained all the way using the tug . Just to start for the same reason you just stated plus I think it is the first steps in teaching the out . It's worked well since the PSD candidates we are getting are much younger then years ago due to the demand for them . So we have time to start it off like this . 

That's my feeling also if you progress in training with lots of presure and the dog is coming off the decoy for a tug or toy , you have the wrong dog . But it works out great in the beginning and leads to less work down the road since they know what out means buy that time . We just need to proof it in the later stages .


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## Tommy O'Hanlon (Feb 21, 2008)

Thank you Martine


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## Mo Earle (Mar 1, 2008)

make your message/lesson clear to the dog, you aren't asking really or telling, first you are teaching - think like a dog, give clear message black and white, and find what works for your dog to understand what you are trying to achieve- make the dog believe it wants to do the particular exercise or task...then life is easier for both.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

"Asking" my dogs to do something is like "asking" my grandkids " Would you Pick up your toys please"?!
It may be a question and they have the choice to comply or refuse but the consequences of punishment or with holding reward is a result of that choice.
Am I ever really "asking"? ;-)


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## jack van strien (Apr 9, 2009)

Very wise answer Bob,only old folks know this secret.
This is what you could call dominant behaviour,i think?


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Jack, I'm just a nice old granpa! :twisted: O:-\"


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## Kerry Foose (Feb 20, 2010)

I say both.
I can quietly ask for a "quiet" and get it.
or I can tell/yell STFU and that works too!:lol:


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