# Working Pups in Pet Homes



## Howard Gaines III

Working puppies have higher drives and unique behaviors. For breeders who sell to pet homes, do you have something in your contract or have educated the buyer about redirection of these drives? Too often pet people want a loaded "gun," then can't handle the action/drives when the puppy is in the home. 

Small kids yelling and running set some puppies off, the dust mop for those who know what that tool is, and the morning paper left on the floor and now is the K-9 bathroom! Setting folks up for success, the right to sell or not sell to pet homes...:-k


----------



## mike suttle

Howard Gaines III said:


> Working puppies have higher drives and unique behaviors. For breeders who sell to pet homes, do you have something in your contract or have educated the buyer about redirection of these drives? Too often pet people want a loaded "gun," then can't handle the action/drives when the puppy is in the home.
> 
> Small kids yelling and running set some puppies off, the dust mop for those who know what that tool is, and the morning paper left on the floor and now is the K-9 bathroom! Setting folks up for success, the right to sell or not sell to pet homes...:-k


My contract only covers health and working guarantees. But I usually try to steer new working dog owners looking for a "pet" to consider another breeder. If they are hell bent on a puppy from us then I insist on picking the puppy for them, if there is one suited for them in a litter, and I make sure that if they have trouble with the puppy that I have the first right to get the dog back. I have actually gotten some very nice working dogs back at 10-12 months because they were too much for there owners. But ideally for the dog he goes into one family and lives to be 16 years old with them. To try to make sure that happens the new owners need to be fully aware of the breed you are selling, and how that breed behaves when it is an adult.


----------



## Mike Scheiber

Asko Von Der Lutter was sold/given to a pet home and returned to the breeder.


----------



## Don Turnipseed

The way I keep people at the right level of pup is
1) the pup has never been in the house before we go in to do the paperwork.
2) If the pup is going for a pet and is pet quality, the pup will be more subdued on its first time in the house and all is cool.
3)If the pup is a competition level pup, he will hit the floor running first time or not. The room is set up with all the flat surfaces having a covering, table cloth or something that is within the pups reach and everthing on the table is unbreakable. The stuff is unbreakable because the breakable stuff was broke long ago.The hard charger will have everything off every table in seconds. You can see the people looking at each other tinking of all the nice stuff the have adorning their tables. This is when you ask them if they think a "less wound up" pup might be better. 

As far as having unruly kids, I just tell them they have no busness with a dog till they get rid of the kid.


----------



## Gillian Schuler

Now that's good - get rid of the kid (or bring him up right).

Actually, I don't think you can make a clear cut between "working and pet dogs". Some people will have trouble with a lively pup from whatever side.

I have had a number of dogs - some you have to watch or crate, some are quiet in the house but crazy outside.

A pup (or a dog for that matter) is not "easy maintenance" 100% but, on the other hand not 100% unruly, just depends on how you "drag them up" in my mind.


----------



## Howard Gaines III

Gillian Schuler said:


> ...Actually, I don't think you can make a clear cut between "working and pet dogs". Some people will have trouble with a lively pup from whatever side...


Gillian, I think to some degree this is true, genetics are what they are. But if you have a lower drive, more laid back puppy, then it may be less of an issue for some folks. Some could never handle a stuffed animal. As a kid, I had a male BC that was soooooo laid back. But if something needed dialed up,Tweed was in it to win it! Fear nothing, even the dog catchers.


----------



## Dennis Jones

Don Turnipseed said:


> The way I keep people at the right level of pup is
> 1) the pup has never been in the house before we go in to do the paperwork.
> 2) If the pup is going for a pet and is pet quality, the pup will be more subdued on its first time in the house and all is cool.
> 3)If the pup is a competition level pup, he will hit the floor running first time or not. The room is set up with all the flat surfaces having a covering, table cloth or something that is within the pups reach and everthing on the table is unbreakable. The stuff is unbreakable because the breakable stuff was broke long ago.The hard charger will have everything off every table in seconds. You can see the people looking at each other tinking of all the nice stuff the have adorning their tables. This is when you ask them if they think a "less wound up" pup might be better.
> 
> As far as having unruly kids, I just tell them they have no busness with a dog till they get rid of the kid.


Then I would have to call myself and my kids the exception to your rule, my kids are directly involved in the care, feeding and training of my two working line shepherds. The only thing they don't do is poop duty.


----------



## Howard Gaines III

Yeah but Dennis, I don't think Don or anyone else is really saying to never let kids be exposed to animals. Shoot, that and sports are some of the BEST lesson bulders in life! Responsibility with the care and management of a living thing. Keep up the good work, and a poop shovel NEVER killed a person! Unless then fell face down in it. [-(


----------



## Dennis Jones

Howard Gaines III said:


> Yeah but Dennis, I don't think Don or anyone else is really saying to never let kids be exposed to animals. Shoot, that and sports are some of the BEST lesson bulders in life! Responsibility with the care and management of a living thing. Keep up the good work, and a poop shovel NEVER killed a person! Unless then fell face down in it. [-(


I think the "loaded gun" analogy is pretty close to right. If I were a working line breeder, and I had plans to become one and actualy got as far as getting two brood bitches, I would look for people that have had working line experience or at the very least LE or Mil experience and use the gun analogy with them. When I'm at the park and people ask me if my two UberHunds are good with kids, my response is "They're good with my kids, they'd probably eat yours":mrgreen:

Edit to add

If a person asks me "if they are good with kids" question that kinds tells me they don't plan to give them a lot of training


----------



## Anne Jones

I agree that most pet people are clueless when it comes to what 'working line' dogs need to keep them 'sound'. I have known several people over the last few years that got the lower end drive dogs from working line litters & have had serious problems with keeping these dogs challenged physically & mentally. They really had no idea what they were getting themselves into. I think that the breeders that sold the dogs to these people did a grave injustice to these dogs. 2 of these are GSDs & 1 is a field line lab. At least these dogs didn't have have serious aggression or domanance issues.


----------



## Dennis Jones

too bad you don't have to be a club member before you are allowed a working line dog. I was a Sch club member BEFORE I got my first one. I had an American line pos that I was working in obed and some agility which told them that I had a clue to what was going on. got a pup from another club member at a more than fair price been very happy with her.


----------



## Don Turnipseed

Howard Gaines III said:


> Yeah but Dennis, I don't think Don or anyone else is really saying to never let kids be exposed to animals. Shoot, that and sports are some of the BEST lesson bulders in life! Responsibility with the care and management of a living thing. Keep up the good work, and a poop shovel NEVER killed a person! Unless then fell face down in it. [-(


Actually, as I said, "unruly kids. The parents tell me the dog is for said kid to teach him/her some responsibility. Conversation ends there with me.


----------



## Dennis Jones

Don Turnipseed said:


> Actually, as I said, "unruly kids. The parents tell me the dog is for said kid to teach him/her some responsibility. Conversation ends there with me.


My dogs LOVE unruly children.....

They taste just like pork


----------



## Anna Kasho

Actually I think a working line dog makes a better "pet" than the usual purebred POS I see. They are smarter, more trainable, don't have weird neurotic issues, and I can do a lot more fun stuff with them. Win/win, for me. Then again, I might have a skewed perception of what makes a good pet when compared to the normal people. After my first pup, and when I got my first mal, I remember looking at other people's placid little puppies and wondering if there was something wrong with them, because these pups didn't DO ANYTHING. But I guess the average pet owner would want something not much more demanding than a stuffed toy?:twisted::lol:


----------



## Dennis Jones

Anna Kasho said:


> Actually I think a working line dog makes a better "pet" than the usual purebred POS I see. They are smarter, more trainable, don't have weird neurotic issues, and I can do a lot more fun stuff with them. Win/win, for me. Then again, I might have a skewed perception of what makes a good pet when compared to the normal people. After my first pup, and when I got my first mal, I remember looking at other people's placid little puppies and wondering if there was something wrong with them, because these pups didn't DO ANYTHING. But I guess the average pet owner would want something not much more demanding than a stuffed toy?:twisted::lol:


 
When I got mine I knew it was a full time hobby that I couldn't just throw in the closets like golf clubs when the time/money got a little short. What WAS a surprise to me was the "Sports Related Injuries" that most pet dog owners will hardly ever see.


----------



## Bob Scott

More important then if the pup is going to a working home or a pet home is the ability and activity level of the owner. 
Even when I'm past my prime for doing any sport with my dogs (not yet:grin: ) I'll always have a dog out of working lines, be it a herder or a terrier.


----------



## Dennis Jones

Bob Scott said:


> More important then if the pup is going to a working home or a pet home is the ability and activity level of the owner.
> Even when I'm past my prime for doing any sport with my dogs (not yet:grin: ) I'll always have a dog out of working lines, be it a herder or a terrier.


 
this is where the kids help out alot. I got a bad shoulder and cant throw like I use to and I sure as hell can't run


----------



## Bob Scott

Dennis Jones said:


> this is where the kids help out alot. I got a bad shoulder and cant throw like I use to and I sure as hell can't run


True!
Running grandkids are great for prey drive work. :-$ 
For me, I got one of those ball slingers.


----------



## Sue DiCero

We do the same as Mike. We have said no to people, based on what they are looking for and re-directed them.

And for the kid thing, Cara does help with the clean up stuff with the dogs, so she understands the work that goes into just the care aspect.

And she likes the work aspect; not ready to be a handler. She grabbed my camera at the WUSV and was looking though the lens and commenting on the fullness (or lack of) of the grips, the conflict looks, how the barking was (especially in the blind), etc. Very intent and asking what the judge normally looks for.

it was funny - she caught some things that adults around her did not catch.


----------



## leslie cassian

Before I got my Malinois, I had never owned anything but pet dogs. But I really wanted a Malinois and I wanted a working lines dog because I wanted a dog with a brain and the capacity to do the work he was bred for. The breeder I contacted initially told me he "bred too much dog for what I wanted" (active pet) and then a week or so later emailed saying he had a pup for me. Ronan was the little pup at the back of the pack, that I guess, the breeder thought wasn't going to be a good working dog.

When he was about 18 months old I realized he needed a job and I wanted to learn more and I joined a schutzhund club. 

My 'pet quality' Mal has tons of drive, is fun to train, is easy to live with and makes most other non-working dogs look boring. The club I train with likes him. He was a challenge, but I think that I have risen to that challenge and it's been a great ride. Schutzhund BH (2nd time) and AD this weekend. CKC obedience as well.

I guess what I'm saying is don't write off the pet homes, they may surprise you.


----------



## Harry Keely

I have to agree with Mike & Sue. Why even phantom the idea of putting a working pup into a pet home. That is just F***ing ludacris. We have tried it 3x's and 3 strikes your out and we are out of selling working dogs to a pet fringing home. As far as what Sue said about her daughter knowing more than most adults, I could not agree anymore with her. There is way to many people wanting malis and dutchies because of here say then get them and are like " which way did they go george ". These days to many idiots out there and anyone that breeds these dogs including myself need to be real careful to who gets them. Two of the three were a mali and dutchie adult and both got bitten in the first week of having them. While they were here both were in my house while finishing training with me, my wife a 3 year old son and never had a fringing problem with aggresion control. Never fringing again will I sell one of these breeds to a pet home. Well I'm done and now getting of my soap box. :-\"


----------



## Josh Smith

A lot of people on this forum lament the scarcity of good dogs capable of doing the work (whether that be sport or real life). I agree that most people who are used to a run of the mill pet dog would not be able to handle these dogs. But on the other hand responsible pet owners who discover the intelligence, health, and solid temperaments of these working breeds might want to adjust their lifestyles in order to own a better quality of dog.

Is there a need for more average people to understand and responsibly own these breeds in order to help prevent good quality working dogs from disappearing entirely?

It seems like the more people who understand and are comfortable with strong working dogs the better.


----------



## Harry Keely

Josh theres nothing wrong with it at all. But in my own opinion people need to better educate themselves than just having to much money and going out and buying on a whim a hard GSD, Mali or Dutchie for that matter. I personally here to many of these stories myself so I can only imagine how many others out there are experiencing this. It would make better sense to go and see these dogs work and go to different kennels to see the parents demeanors first. I totally agree with the more people that understand and are comfortable with these strong dogs the longer the strengths will continue to prevail. Lets make sure as buyers and purchasers of these dogs that we understand what we are getting in to or are selling to do to. There are alot of good dogs that have been put down for one reason or another for the simple fact that they were to good of a dog for their new handler. Or they get bounced around from place to place because instead of understanding them and learning there body language people say f**k it I'm getting reid of this dam dog. Thats not right to the dog either!!!




Josh Smith said:


> A lot of people on this forum lament the scarcity of good dogs capable of doing the work (whether that be sport or real life). I agree that most people who are used to a run of the mill pet dog would not be able to handle these dogs. But on the other hand responsible pet owners who discover the intelligence, health, and solid temperaments of these working breeds might want to adjust their lifestyles in order to own a better quality of dog.
> 
> Is there a need for more average people to understand and responsibly own these breeds in order to help prevent good quality working dogs from disappearing entirely?
> 
> It seems like the more people who understand and are comfortable with strong working dogs the better.


----------



## Dennis Jones

Harry Keely said:


> I have to agree with Mike & Sue. Why even phantom the idea of putting a working pup into a pet home. That is just F***ing ludacris. We have tried it 3x's and 3 strikes your out and we are out of selling working dogs to a pet fringing home. As far as what Sue said about her daughter knowing more than most adults, I could not agree anymore with her. There is way to many people wanting malis and dutchies because of here say then get them and are like " which way did they go george ". These days to many idiots out there and anyone that breeds these dogs including myself need to be real careful to who gets them. Two of the three were a mali and dutchie adult and both got bitten in the first week of having them. While they were here both were in my house while finishing training with me, my wife a 3 year old son and never had a fringing problem with aggresion control. Never fringing again will I sell one of these breeds to a pet home. Well I'm done and now getting of my soap box. :-\"


 
Don't think I'd want a Dutchie or a Mali. They all remind me of Hannibal Lector:twisted:


----------



## Harry Keely

GSD's fall into working class dogs to. Look at Mike Suttles present and past GSD's. There probally harder and better than most peoples mali's or dutchies. Same rule applies to hard stricken GSD too.:-k




Dennis Jones said:


> Don't think I'd want a Dutchie or a Mali. They all remind me of Hannibal Lector:twisted:


----------



## Dennis Jones

Harry Keely said:


> GSD's fall into working class dogs to. Look at Mike Suttles present and past GSD's. There probally harder and better than most peoples mali's or dutchies. Same rule applies to hard stricken GSD too.:-k


 
Oh I know that, I just like giving the Mali and Dutchies ppl a hard time;-)


----------



## Sue DiCero

Cara does not really know more, but she sees what is going on and asks. Not clouded by perception; her world is black and white. 

Dog bits full or not. (can you see airspace).
Dog barks continously or not.

I talked to someone this past weekend. He wanted an "active dog". After talking to him, he was not ready to have a dog, active, working or pet. Just getting out of grad school, REALLLLLLY wanted a dog. We talked about schedule (what he would give up, gave examples of what I went through) and maybe taking time to get settled in his new job, schedule and enjoy being out of school (late 20s).


----------



## Howard Gaines III

Bob Scott said:


> For me, I got one of those ball slingers.


 Dumb question, so why don't you just get the hernia repair???!!!:mrgreen:](*,)


----------



## Howard Gaines III

Josh Smith said:


> Is there a need for more average people to understand and responsibly own these breeds in order to help prevent good quality working dogs from disappearing entirely?
> 
> It seems like the more people who understand and are comfortable with strong working dogs the better.


 One better Josh, anyone owning a working breed AND WORKING the dog in some venue. Owning and doing nothing with it other than to say you have one is a joke. It's like folks who call me with BCs and cry b/c their dog has lots of drive and no outlet...go figure!!!!!!!!!!!](*,)


----------



## David Frost

Howard Gaines III said:


> It's like folks who call me with BCs and cry b/c their dog has lots of drive and no outlet...go figure!!!!!!!!!!!](*,)


I attended, as an observer, a herding demonstration. The woman giving the demo was using three border collies. It was impressive to watch them work. During a question and answer session, a woman asked if they make good pets. The woman doing the demon, quickly and aggressively said; Hell no. I applauded her answer. ha ha. I think it's no accident Mals are starting to show up in rescues in larger numbers.

DFrost


----------



## leslie cassian

So for all of you breeding working dogs, who seem to think that no working breed dog is suitable for a 'pet' home, what happens to your washouts? Do you place them in non working homes?


----------



## Gillian Schuler

Good question! They don't even have to be "washouts". Some breeders over here advertise "to working homes only" but if anyone were to offer more than the asking price, some might be persuaded.

Some very good longstanding breeders won't have trouble because they count sport, police, military, etc. to their clients and don't need to sell to pet homes but the good or new breeder may have to face keeping part of the litter or selling to non-working dog home. If they check out the would be owners, and advise them properly it could work.

Most of us started off as pet owners or not?


----------



## Howard Gaines III

leslie cassian said:


> So for all of you breeding working dogs, who seem to think that no working breed dog is suitable for a 'pet' home, what happens to your washouts? Do you place them in non working homes?


 I NEVER have washouts! Never had one returned, and never had an issue with pet or working homes, because I screen* REAL* close!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Remember, my name, my kennel name, and every litter going out with each and every pup says something about what I am doing. It takes the same amount of energy to say something good as it does to say something bad. The bad always seems to fall out of folks mouth the fastest...


----------



## Julia Norton VMD

I was curious what percentage of working puppies are washouts, in a great litter or for ex a more average working breeding. I sensibly passed on a very strong breeding when I went looking for active pet/obed /tracking prospect. I am not hardcore, just a hobby but grew up w chessies and rottweilers. Bought from a more midlevel breeding and got a lot of drive and trainiblity(great) but the nerves of a show line(and yes she is half east/west working line bicolor). Do you think breeders mistakenly think sending the soft/weak pup to a pet home is good option. We are currently discussing rehoming her due to both her tail chasing and fear issues which likely preclude her success n obed. She has recently decided she is terrified of visitors to the house which is not great w visiting children. I think people forget that more stable dogs are needed in family homes not less. However I do agree that very strong dogs do not belong in most homes. I just had a lovely client bring an 11 month rottie male into the clinic to look at the skin. Dog was bought over from S america but I believe is from direct German lines. Very friendly until he wasn't. Scariest thing I ever saw. Jumped off the floor at passing tech and tried to grab her shoulder, on the way out the door attempted to attack an innocent bystander standing w the his back to the dog. Rec 2 working dog trainers but owner lives next to a school and I think this will not end well.


----------



## Steve Strom

I wouldnt call that a strong dog Julia.


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

So, the spaying didn't work for the tail chasing and now she is fearful of visitors when she wasn't before? How old is she now? You wanted her for competition obedience? Where is the breeder in all this and is it his/her contention that they sold you the softer/weaker dog. Drive + trainability + nervy does not equal obedience competition prospect. As far as rehome, how do you do that. Someone wants a nervy, fearful dog that spins and chases her tail?

Terrasita


----------



## Gerry Grimwood

We've all seen dogs from Boston Terriers/JRt's to the oversized Mastiff types doing bitework.

Are they really working dogs ? They're doing the "work" aren't they ?

Does a dog going out 2,3,4 or even 5 days a week for an hour or two to bite a sleeve qualify as a working dog if the rest of it's life consists of sitting in a kennel ?

I like farm dogs.


----------



## Nicole Stark

Me? I consider any dog that has a "job" to do, a working dog. Those that are trained in to perform I consider sport dogs. Something in-between would be a dog like my own, it doesn't have a job to do per se but she is very active and it's a hell of a lot of work to do what she does, she's not biddable enough for sport but she's capable of many things that sport or job committed dogs do. 

I prefer my dogs to be well rounded, I speculate most people do to some extent. Indeed, sport dogs are a lot of fun and the effort put into sport can easily yield a practical application in real life. This is largely why I don't degrade specific sports or even a particular dog or breed of ones choosing. I have a sincere appreciation for all of it.


----------



## Don Turnipseed

When I think working bred, I do not break it into specific areas like biting. Many working bred dogs simply have a high energy level that, many times drive a pet level owner nuts. True working bred dogs need to work and that takes more time than a pet person wants to invest normaly. If they aren't worked, they will find things to amuse themselves because laying around the house 24/7 doesn't cut it.


----------



## Gerry Grimwood

I agree with both of you.

I am biased obviously, but I don't think because I'm not involved in any sport means my dog will suffer.

I like my dog because he's healthy and lively, I don't want a calm submissive dog.


----------



## Howard Gaines III

I can't say "any" job makes them a worker. There must be was to have the dog use both the body and mind, to problem solve and to burn up that energy. I keep going back to the BCs, many folks cannot or will not allow a dog to use the full level of its breeding. Like the guy who takes his Lab out and throws 2 bumpers and calls it a day, lazy a$$.

The dog needs to think; stockdogs do more than run, they out think the critter they are working. Patrol dogs are operating in a different mode, bird/water dogs use different skills. If the dog has too much drive and the pet home can't give a proper outlet for the energy, I think that spells issues for them down the road...like giving a 15 year old kid a super fast racer, won't last a month.


----------



## Guest

Sure, a drivey dog must have a way to burn off that energy but a lot of what's being described in this thread is plain old *poor* training.


----------



## Gillian Schuler

Both my dogs are from "working lines" as opposed to "show lines" and I train with them, but at the moment not so frequently. 

I still expect them to behave in the house even if they're not fully "worn out". Gee Gods, they're not nervy nutters.

If they can't behave , they're crated.


----------



## Kat LaPlante

Don Turnipseed said:


> The way I keep people at the right level of pup is
> 1) the pup has never been in the house before we go in to do the paperwork.
> 2) If the pup is going for a pet and is pet quality, the pup will be more subdued on its first time in the house and all is cool.
> 3)If the pup is a competition level pup, he will hit the floor running first time or not. The room is set up with all the flat surfaces having a covering, table cloth or something that is within the pups reach and everthing on the table is unbreakable. The stuff is unbreakable because the breakable stuff was broke long ago.The hard charger will have everything off every table in seconds. You can see the people looking at each other tinking of all the nice stuff the have adorning their tables. This is when you ask them if they think a "less wound up" pup might be better.
> 
> As far as having unruly kids, I just tell them they have no busness with a dog till they get rid of the kid.


HA HA!! In my business I entertain alot at home, my husband says, "don't you think you should have nicer furniture for our guests?" to which I reply, "the rips have been tacked, the stains covered with the good end of the area rug, this guys got another year of chewing, and the pup will be here in 6 months!, the new stuff will just look like this stuff. Let's save the money and just get a 3rd dog."8-[


----------



## Kat LaPlante

Howard Gaines III said:


> Yeah but Dennis, I don't think Don or anyone else is really saying to never let kids be exposed to animals. Shoot, that and sports are some of the BEST lesson bulders in life! Responsibility with the care and management of a living thing. Keep up the good work, and a poop shovel NEVER killed a person! Unless then fell face down in it. [-(


My boys are 3 and 5 and they are lucky enough to have had an extremely high drive dog around every second of their lives, they clean up poop, they tie the dog to the wagon and he takes them for a very scary ride, they take part in the feeding and the care and the vet appts. the only thing I will continue to shelter them from is the final journey. Mine is a working dog and they have learned to understand and respect that moment when he goes from loyal protector to prey driven monster.


----------



## Howard Gaines III

Kat, you hiring those kids out?


----------

