# The advancement of protection dogs.



## Reinier Geel (Apr 4, 2006)

How well are we doing in the advancement of Protection dogs? :?: 

Trying to understand this industry is at times like trying to make sense of mud pie. :!: 

Many have tried to form one body that will represent working dogs  (out side of the sports arena and context of course). This has been marginally and in some instances regionally successful. However, this is still no-mans land as far as what I am concerned (by not factoring in the Police and Military professionals that are well established)  On the civilian side where we still dont see any governing body for civilian used and trained dogs that know what they are talking about, why is that? 

Well I have my own theory. The main reason I suppose is that Trainers hate being described too  just like fishermen - everyone has his own secret recipe that works for him. That does not prescribe to uniformity with one code, rather just similarity. Had we prescribes a best practice for training that should be used long agoI think we would have been worse off, the main reason is that we follow many paths to reach the same and final objective and most of them are as inconsolable as water and fire when compared. There are just too many factors that play a role in getting to the final product.

Mostly the skilled and knowledgeable in this field has or had some military or police influence in my experience that guides them in their own training methodology. However without going out on a limb here and not discounting the sport dog fanatics, they have also been very successful.

The point is this, we comment on protection dog training as if it is set ideology  it is not, it is mostly ambiguous to a certain extent especially for new comers, for with any animal training we are just scratching the surface of what is deemed to be possible. Have we built a ceiling for our selves, or will we when we unite.

Is it not high time that we at least admit that this industry has become inconsolable due to the diversity we have to face amongst our selves?

The only up side is that we now have a tool (the internet that individualize us) to share the training, and experiences with. If it is true that unity is strength then why are we still acting as individuals?

How do we solve this problem and consolidate our pool of intellect to save and better the industry? :wink:


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## Andres Martin (May 19, 2006)

> How do we solve this problem and consolidate our pool of intellect to save and better the industry?


To a degree it already happens - as you well put it - via the Internet. It's very difficult for people with BIG egos to find commercial advantage through sharing however.


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## Woody Taylor (Mar 28, 2006)

Reinier Geel said:


> Is it not high time that we at least admit that this industry has become inconsolable due to the diversity we have to face amongst our selves?


You're being too generous, how about "the PPD industry sucks" because there is no code of ethics, no monitoring, abusive training for dogs unable to truly do the work, abusive training for dogs who could otherwise do the work, unscrupulous trainers, idiotic macho owners, placement of PPDs in situations where they have no place, no objective set of metrics to actually gauge the success of various PPD trainers, trainers too reliant on mysticism to cover up basic and commonsense training, PPD placement with owners who have no idea how to handle their dogs, no consistent guidelines on maintenance training, exotic breed specialists that distort what a PPD is and is supposed to be capable of, no real objective experiences of PPD application to benchmark success and failure in the real world, and did I mention that I the vast majority of people who own PPDs either have no need or no capability handling these animals? 

*I think it has very little to do with the wonderful diversity of trainers and their secret recipes.* I think it has a lot to do with money and crap training by unethical trainers and idiot owners.

I'll be out walking my Timbershepherd if someone needs me.


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## Greg Long (Mar 27, 2006)

Woody...you are the type that might indeed own a Timbershepherd. :wink:


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

What the heck is a timbershepherd? Is that Justin Timberlake's breeding program????


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## Woody Taylor (Mar 28, 2006)

Mike Schoonbrood said:


> What the heck is a timbershepherd? Is that Justin Timberlake's breeding program????


Wolf/shepherd hybrids that used to be marketed as the ultimate protection dog.

Greg...no...but your reponse is kind of my point.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Uh Huh...Czechoslovakian Wolf Dog?


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## Andres Martin (May 19, 2006)

Woody asked an unusually good question sometime back, regarding a "minimum" skill set that PPD trainers taught their "pupils". The only individual who answered the question specifically was yours truly. I expected a few more specific replies from some of our PPD trainer-posters...and got none. The thread petered out.

Back in prehistoria, Woody also asked about handler screening...to which he recieved a few philosophical answers. None practical. People generally answer questions that were NOT ASKED.

All this within an Internet forum where we "like" each other. Some of us have even met, and continued to like each other. We recently had an offer from down under made to someone that likes rusted trucks, relating to moving in together!

Even though the benefits of collaboration FAR outweigh its costs...it doesn't happen much...EVEN HERE!


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## Woody Taylor (Mar 28, 2006)

Andres Martin said:


> We recently had an offer from down under made to someone that likes rusted trucks, relating to moving in together!


Somebody wants to move into Greg's ugly trailers? Did he tell them about the dogs on top of them?

The PPD industry is too corrupt and the impact of its outputs...i.e., the dogs themselves...too difficult to measure to really legitimize itself.


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## Andres Martin (May 19, 2006)

Twenty years ago, when I used to try to sneak up on people in the night...my absolute worst nightmare were our local PPDs. Small to medium sized, Darwin style breeding and selection process, fed tortillas and whatever THEY could hunt, "trained" to guard by virtue of their extraordinary bond with their owners, who underfed them, kicked them frequently, etc.

It was very difficult to overcome that line of defenses undetected - to say the least.

Mongrel dogs fascinate me. Versatile hunters of everything from iguanas to deer. Easy family dogs. They are insurmountable as PPDs.

No one teaches them anything. There is no "drive building". They delineate their owner's terrirritory perfectly, and hold it. They are not trained to be PPDs. They simply "are". How? Why?


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## Woody Taylor (Mar 28, 2006)

Andres Martin said:


> No one teaches them anything. There is no "drive building". They delineate their owner's terrirritory perfectly, and hold it. They are not trained to be PPDs. They simply "are". How? Why?


Are you asking, or is that a loaded question? Just wondering, seriously.


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## Andres Martin (May 19, 2006)

Either way...I'm asking! :lol: :lol: 

It's an honest question...
There's a lot in that kind of man-dog relationship that's "outside" the upper classes in the dog world's radar screen, IMO.

By the way, regarding the rusted trucks thing...the actual "suggestion" was the following...


> Hey Greg, you wouldn't want to come and live with me for a while would you? I have a horse too \/ kissy, kissy


I may have used a small bit of editorial freedom...but not much!


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

woody--if you need some fresh genetics for your wolves, i saw an ad in the paper here today for 8 wk old wolf cubs--only $300  

sorry OT.....


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## Woody Taylor (Mar 28, 2006)

Actually, here's a challenge for any of you a bit bored on our national holiday today. Google "protection dogs." Tell me which of the top 15-20 google returns look "legit" to you. Then compare that with the % of sites with pictures of their ferocious dogs in front of exotic sportscars. Then compare that with the % of sites with pictures of their dogs in front of exotic sportscars, with either a baby or a scantily-clad woman (with the 80's haircut) posing on the hood somewhere on their site. 

I bet you those three numbers are within 5% of each other.

Corrupt industry. Why?


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## Woody Taylor (Mar 28, 2006)

ann freier said:


> woody--if you need some fresh genetics for your wolves, i saw an ad in the paper here today for 8 wk old wolf cubs--only $300
> 
> sorry OT.....


Those are from my stock. Buy them before they run away.


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## Simon Mellick (Oct 31, 2006)

The $50,000 dog from protectiondogs.com seemed like a much better deal before I did the math... I'd much rather have 166 wolf cubs.


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## Woody Taylor (Mar 28, 2006)

Simon Mellick said:


> The $50,000 dog from protectiondogs.com seemed like a much better deal before I did the math... I'd much rather have 166 wolf cubs.


For $50K, interestingly enough, they throw in the 80s model stretched across the Diablo.

Edited to say, "or the baby." That's the Level VX protection package.


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## Erik Berg (Apr 11, 2006)

Is there really an "industry" when it comes to civilian PP-dogs? Most dogs that are protectiontrained are either doing some form of sportwork or are working in the servicesector like police/security, at least in my corner of the world. Training a dog in protection if you are not going to compete or have it in your job is quite controversial here, I guess due to all people who thinks it cool to have an angry,snarling dog at the lead


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## Woody Taylor (Mar 28, 2006)

Erik Berg said:


> Is there really an "industry" when it comes to civilian PP-dogs? Most dogs that are protectiontrained are either doing some form of sportwork or are working in the servicesector like police/security, at least in my corner of the world. Training a dog in protection if you are not going to compete or have it in your job is quite controversial here, I guess due to all people who thinks it cool to have an angry,snarling dog at the lead


HeeHoHo, yes, things are a bit different out here in the States.


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## Woody Taylor (Mar 28, 2006)

Besides, Erik, what you are describing potentially involves commitment and exercise on the part of the owner. What the hell is your problem, anyway? :lol:


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Woody Taylor said:


> Reinier Geel said:
> 
> 
> > Is it not high time that we at least admit that this industry has become inconsolable due to the diversity we have to face amongst our selves?
> ...


Woody, I do believe you've been reading my mind. (that must have been a wierd trip) Your comment relative "lot to do with money" etc etc, is in, my opinion not only prophetic, but dead on target. I've been reading the threads about dogs, handler committment ad nauseum. What it truly boils down to are trainers that, as long as they are being paid, will train whatever they are asked to do, to minimum standards, (which probably means it scares the hell of out of the unknowing).

DFrost


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

You know, so few people (at least here in the states) have any need for this type of dog. I'm sure they are purchased more to boost the ego (look at me, I'm so important I need a guard dog), than any sort of true reality. I wonder how often they really have to defend or protect their owners. I would be surprised if there is any continuation of the training, so after a few years how much of those special skills would be retained?


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## Greg Long (Mar 27, 2006)

I actually agree with you Woody on some of those points.  

I dont like to hear people use the term "personal protection dog".It implies that the dog will always work and defend the person's home and property and the owner/handler doesnt have to do anything but maybe say "sic em".These people who think this need a reality check.

To me any "good" dog worth his salt from one of the so called protection breeds should at least be a preliminary line of defense for their owners with or without training.Many mongrel dogs will defend their territory and their people even when the people treat them badly just like Andres says.Hell,some of those mutts will defend 10 times better than a highly trained PPD.So a GSD or Dutchie should be 100 times better right?They arent so why not??Many are worse.In my part of the country the idea of a "PPD" is silly.Most dogs around here put up enough of a show to deter even a ballsy thief.Most of the dogs here are heelers or heeler mixes.I damn sure know several that will eat you alive if you mess with the owner's feed truck that they are usually found in the back of.
Most of my own dogs are from sport bloodlines.My favorite dog however is backyard bred and has no papers.He seems smarter and he handles stress better.

The type of dog I personally prefer is the kind most of you wouldnt even think was trainable.I am moving farther and farther away from structured training programs and methods.I am trying to just build a good strong stable dog.Then again I dont have a website with a girl in a bikini in front of a sportscar and Im not trying to make a fortune pushing PPDs.


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## Andres Martin (May 19, 2006)

> Mongrels delineate their owner's terrirritory perfectly, and hold it. They are not trained to be PPDs. They simply "are". How? Why?





> What is the "minimum" skill set that PPD trainers teach their "pupils".





> Message from Bree...
> 
> 
> > Hey Greg, you wouldn't want to come and live with me for a while would you? I have a horse too kissy, kissy


Well???


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## Greg Long (Mar 27, 2006)

Mongrels delineate their owner's terrirritory perfectly, and hold it. They are not trained to be PPDs. They simply "are". How? Why?

Survival.They know that their owners offer them a better chance for survival than if they were out on there own.Because they were born and raised in a harsher environment and because their genetics are more natural and not dictated by stupid humans,their natural survival instincts are more defined.In a nutshell they react more naturally to territorial threats becuause it hasnt been genetically altered by people.

What is the "minimum" skill set that PPD trainers teach their "pupils".

Im not a pro but Ill try to answer.I would say they just teach basic obed and make sure the client has a working knowledge of the commands.Once they think the client is fairly capable of controlling the dog then thats it...time is money after all.
A good PPD trainer would follow up and include the owner in the maintenance training and make sure the owner can control the dog in different environments and under stress.The last part is by far the most important part.The client/owner must have some dedication beyond writing the check.

As far as regulating PPD standards, I think we have more work to do (and more to worry about) educating a basically ignorant public on how to handle aggression problems with their own pets.If we dont then we may be banned from even owning a protection breed much less training one for PP. 

Hey Greg, you wouldn't want to come and live with me for a while would you? I have a horse too kissy, kissy 

Ha ha...Ive been known to work for tequila but not "kissy kissy".I do get some strange offers though..


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## Andres Martin (May 19, 2006)

Hey Greg, what do you teach the PPDs you sell?


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## Al Curbow (Mar 27, 2006)

To me its a simple thing. It's all the dog, you can't train heart.............


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## Greg Long (Mar 27, 2006)

I dont think I have ever said that I sell PPDs.I occasionally sell a dog or two as a pet and I have had several dogs here that eventually ended up in LE.I dont have enough confidence in most people's handling skills or their responsibility to sell a dog as a PPD.

What I teach my dogs is mostly taking direction via voice and body influence.They already know everything else.Then its just a matter of being clear as to what you want the dog to df course you have to practice some protection type scenarios usually involving putting both handler and dog under a considerable amount of stress.Biting is the easy part once you open up that part of the dog's personality.Stabilization is probably the most important thing for a PPD.For the handler, the most important thing is being aware of and reading the dog.The dog will tell you if hes going to bite beforehand.He will also tell you many other things like someone approaching outside your visual range.Its the handler's responsibility to keep a line of communication open with the dog at all times.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Andres Martin said:


> Twenty years ago, when I used to try to sneak up on people in the night...my absolute worst nightmare were our local PPDs. Small to medium sized, Darwin style breeding and selection process, fed tortillas and whatever THEY could hunt, "trained" to guard by virtue of their extraordinary bond with their owners, who underfed them, kicked them frequently, etc.
> 
> It was very difficult to overcome that line of defenses undetected - to say the least.
> 
> ...


When my nephew was in on the initial invasion of Iraq, his recon group said it was darn near imposasible to get a sniper into the towns without being seen by all the half feral dogs in the neighborhood. 
They each had their own little piece of territory and would sound of at the slightest disturbance.


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## Reinier Geel (Apr 4, 2006)

Very insightful and very interesting comments, the one thing that popped up was that most of the PPD trainers saw an remarkable difference between training bloodlines and mongrals  I know I am going off the point here  but why do you think this is? :wink: 

The other factor we can not discard is that no one will do this type of training for the love of the JOB  hell, it is hard workso what would be a fair margin to measure this aspect by?.... :idea: 

Then again, how will we rogue elements  with no or grey hair - convince the public that the Mark vx package is not the real thing either, and what other options do they have?
:|


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## Bree McQuilty (Feb 10, 2007)

> Quote:
> Message from Bree...Quote:
> Hey Greg, you wouldn't want to come and live with me for a while would you? I have a horse too kissy, kissy
> 
> ...


Andre, there was no kissy kissy. It was a joke in case you'd missed it. I thank you for pissing my husband off.[/quote]


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## Bree McQuilty (Feb 10, 2007)

And I happen to like rusty trucks AND dogs!!!! :lol:


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## Reinier Geel (Apr 4, 2006)

AHHHHH  woman :lol:  they never know when to stop, thanks Bee you have just killed a thread :x (i could have sworn that this is why they have private mail.???) this is just the reason why I dont bother posting anymore, every thread gets hijacked with idol chat. :twisted: :twisted:


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## Woody Taylor (Mar 28, 2006)

Bree's comments and/or her gender had nothing to do with this thread not going anywhere. Promise.


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## Andres Martin (May 19, 2006)

> remarkable difference between training bloodlines and mongrals


Reiner...there is nothing like nature's incredible challenges (Darwin) to determine what works and what doesn't. Mongrel dogs are a product of that. They are extraordinarily insightful animals. I have a cousin that took one from a litter when the pup was 6 weeks old, fed him properly...the dog grew to about 55 lbs and is hilariously funny, will do anything, is totally healthy, uses his nose like you wouldn't believe, and bites well to boot. He is the only dog I know that gooses people more than my dog.

When man walks in and tries to manipulate natural production, due to his own limitations, he will focus on fewer things than nature does...to the detriment of the "whole".

For me...a good PPD must know the world well, and be able to function in it in a very stable manner. There must be an uncanny understanding between the dog and myself, and I must only be a "bit" concerned that he'll bite someone he's not supposed to. Kids are off limits.

This in my view, comes FAR more from farm dogs than sport dogs. I can't help but wonder what happens to a dog's innate abilities (in the ample sense of the words) after 10 generations of breeding KENNELED dogs, who's evaluation has mostly been on trial fields.

Regarding price...I own a US$1,500 guitar. Is it too expensive? I really like how it sounds. My boat is pretty expensive too. I have invested COUNTLESS hours interacting with my dog. How much would I sell him for? I know he's amazing with my kids and great with kids in general; fine with all other animals; water; all surfaces; sociable; good obedience; good agility; bites well; tracks well; detects well; he's not bad to look at; healthy; "normal" hips and elbows; and funny as hell. His only problem is that he says "hello" with his nose up the crotch. How much is he worth the day his alert barking dissuades a rapist from entering MY house?

There are some alarm systems that sell for over US$10,000. Try to get an alarm system to fetch a ball for your 6 yr. old child. Good dogs should be expensive...IMO.


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

So Andres your dog isn't from sport lines and kennel breeding?


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## Andres Martin (May 19, 2006)

Of course he is. You and I are RELATED! (Can you post some recent pictures of Lyka, where one could see her structure, and close ups?) The fact of the matter is that nowadays...sport dogs are like the "only parking spot" available. Either you take it, or you don't park! Searching for dogs is also very time consuming.

Also, it's not only about the dog...but how it's raised.

Twenty-some-thing years ago, I went to Europe a few times and brought back a few "farm" dogs - full of "piss and vinegar", super cheap. The results were NOT good because the dogs were very hard to handle for the "average" handler. I chose dogs that I thought were great, without taking into account with whom the dogs would END UP. The dogs were fabulous though. They were amazing with their families.

As Reiner wrote, handlers need to have a propensity towards violence of the reciprocal kind, to like a tough, independent, full of drive dog.

Mike, do you disagree with my points, which are that Nature's selection process - for dogs - is worthy of careful scrutiny? That the man-dog relationship observed with mongrels is worthy of the same? That mongrels are amazing PPDs with NO training? That fully trained, good dogs should be expensive?

BTW, I notice you have an auto-fix for the "L - y - k - a" misspellers. Good for you!


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

I don't believe that quality sport stock is inferior to a mongrel, but I do know what you're talking about. Our family dog in the middle east, bought from a small indian pet store in the downtown market was supposed to be a GSD n turned out to be some kinda mutt. She was full of piss n vinegar, naturally protective, wanted to bite strangers in the ankles, very agile etc. A cool all around dog that had zero training, but I wouldn't trust her to defend under the type of stress that quality sport lines are capable of working thru.


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## Andres Martin (May 19, 2006)

The only way you can trust a dog to defend under heavy stress is if you've adequately tested the dog. It has nothing to do with lines.

More on point, what do you think of the questions I raised in my prior post?


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## Greg Long (Mar 27, 2006)

> I don't believe that quality sport stock is inferior to a mongrel,
> 
> 
> > Perhaps I havent seen any "quality" sport stock.Maybe we should define a mongrel.
> ...


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## Greg Long (Mar 27, 2006)

> I don't believe that quality sport stock is inferior to a mongrel,
> 
> 
> > Perhaps I havent seen any "quality" sport stock.Maybe we should define a mongrel.
> ...


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## Reinier Geel (Apr 4, 2006)

Yes, the fact of the matter is that you have no clue what you are buying into imo  with any dog for that matter no matter what his breeding. However I will say this much, with breeders you at least have some margin of measure, hips for one  as they sell mature dogs as well  and you can test the parents for the traits you are looking for. I have no interest in all the titles and bloodlines; I am only concerned with what is in front of me.

Down here, we have big gene pools and upmarket breeders  so we are pretty much open to choose that way. 

I have trained them all, and have found that you get the same anomaly in both groups, so the myth is busted as far as what I am concerned  they are both trainable and good sources, it is back to luck, keen observation and Murphy to better the odds.


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

> of course I need to see a quality sport dog I guess


Unless I'm missing something, I'd say that all your non-mutt dogs come from sport lines. Do your dogs suck too?


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## Greg Long (Mar 27, 2006)

I have a couple of dogs right now that would probably do well at sport.They arent nearly as capable in the excersises I do as my BYB shepherd who, if he is from sport lines, is several generations back..I have no idea cause hes not papered.The same holds true with dogs Ive had in the past.The sportier the dog the less tolerance they have for stress.

I agree with Reinier that it depends on the dog in front of you.

I also agree with Andres that you cant trust any dog unless you test it accordingly but I do believe that there are certain lines or at least certain indentifiable types of dogs that are much more suited for real world tasks than the type of dog usually selected for sport.


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## Woody Taylor (Mar 28, 2006)

Greg Long said:


> I do believe that there are certain lines or at least certain indentifiable types of dogs that are much more suited for real world tasks than the type of dog usually selected for sport.


All the drives but just really fat?


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## Greg Long (Mar 27, 2006)

All 43 drives.. :wink:


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

Greg where do you get your dogs from?


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## Greg Long (Mar 27, 2006)

Well I cant give out all my sources but they are from sport lines mostly.My Dutchie is line bred on Van Leeuwens stock.My Czech male is a Doksy Bady Ron grandson on the bottom.I consider him mostly sport lines.My Mali pup is Kukays Quatro and some other KNPV stuff.He is definitely sport lines.My Female Czech is also from some sport lines but she is a somewhat different type of dog.A little closer to what I like.She is an Urxi Z Bs daughter and a Tom Z Ps granddaughter.I dont consider any of them to be really great dogs but then again it could be the handler..  .
I dont think that I will pay much for any dog I get in the future.I have just as good a chance of finding a good dog on farm somewhere.Besides people try to give me dogs all the time.I had a guy give me a Leerburg bitch once after he paid 1600.00 for her.Most of the time when I inquire about a litter, the breeder will want to give me a pup to train or give me a really good deal.Dogs are cheap but good dogs are hard to find whether its from a big time breeder or farmer Brown.Im just playing the odds in my favor.Besides the only way to consistently have really good dogs is to breed them.


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## Greg Long (Mar 27, 2006)

Reinier,what do you consider to be training bloodlines?Do you find any differences in so called "sport" lines compared to dogs from a more questionable background?


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## Reinier Geel (Apr 4, 2006)

Hell yes, most of the sport lines are 100% energy and very little lights on (they dont seem to have much of a personality when compare to run of the mill breeding)  you do get the odd exception I know -, I will say this for them - they train fast, but are not stable around people like my mongrel, if any one just moves too fast, the dog will grab him and they dont seem to calm down, up and down, panting wanting play or run, etc.., too mush to handle in a street situation. They will even take care of the owner/ handler from time to time, just to remind him, they can, and will bite. Its like being a crocodile handler; you never know when you are going to get bitten. No thanks, mostly Mals shows this behaviour, great dog to train, and they will carry on forever, excellent for sport, detection, agility and tracking  but just too much electricity for my liking to train and handle in attack work, so guys love it, well I dont.

No give me a Rott, Great Dane, GSD and my Favourite the Boerboel and I am happy, you can read them, and they are consistent, I just buy them from any breeder that just breeds them, no preferences  they dont have as much energy and the lights are on  well this is just what I like  in a PPD, a more stable dog that I can have around friends and family, that will take the abuse of children and still be able to take on any man if need be.
:wink:


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## Andres Martin (May 19, 2006)

Reiner...I've had only Mals (now a Dutchie) IN my house and working; with my kids, in piñatas, at schools, working amongst cattle, pigs, other dogs, cats, etc., etc., etc. for over 25 years.

The first one I bought was an adult who was very hyper and unstable. He became very stable - lights on upstairs - but it wasn't easy. I might point out that a good ass-wuppin' does wonders every once in a while. Does the phrase, "Knock some sense into him", ring a bell?

I would never have any other kind of dog in my house. AND...you couldn't pay me enough to take a Rottie...or worse yet...a Great Dane. A Boerboel? Only if you threw in a herd of Wildebeest to feed it.

I used to respect you...

:lol: :lol: :lol: I wish I could see your face...


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## Woody Taylor (Mar 28, 2006)

Andres Martin said:


> I wish I could see your face...


:lol: Just went to a darker shade of green and his ears curled in. :wink:


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## Reinier Geel (Apr 4, 2006)

IF being honest is the crime I am accused off then so be it, I am not changing my opinion to be part of any ideology I dont share in  we are talking about PPDs here, not police dogs, or patrol dogs etc, people need to be informed, and they need to make informed decisions so dont take this personal Andres.

Just because i am not promoting you favourite breed  I have seen and trained Mals plenty, I raised three pups, and are very fond of them, I paid top dollars for a great specimen and he was one of a kind, I can safely say I know the breed well  on the front page off my book I am holding one of my pups - and they are all hot dogs, anyone that owns one will tell you  even the most timed have the temperament of a Boarder collie  in other words they are very active  and in your own words hard to get the dogs lights on, by cooling down the dog with lots of effort  they are very easy to train imo.

Then most Mals are lightweights as well, very few big ones, they are smaller than GSDd in general, there are better dogs always, breed is a personal preference just like deodorant and aftershave  and hay  sorry I hurt your feelings bro, it was not personal  do you want a hug - :wink: .

This is not just about Mals but other breeds like the Alaskan malamute and Busier as well; they are all live wiresnot good in civilian hands.

We are talking about training them for civilians here, not military or police :idea:  my opinion would differ on that score. I am just not convinced that they will make good as PPD for civilians as a preferred breed  and this is not a rule or a guideline, just my observation and opinion.

Here Mals are few and in-between as well, you have to hunt far and wide to get a good Mal, maybe this is why I am not convinced.

This is my point the Human Factor - in PPD training, this is just the proof of it, throw three trainers in one room, and you will get three widely divers opinions on breed and temperament. I say if it works for you good, if it doest try and try again until you succeed :wink:


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## Reinier Geel (Apr 4, 2006)

Woody Taylor said:


> Andres Martin said:
> 
> 
> > I wish I could see your face...
> ...


And he elevated some twenty feet off the floor before dropping a friend on his head so that the "lights can go on" ha ha ha ha :wink:


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## Andres Martin (May 19, 2006)

Thanks...now with the switch in the "on" position, let me share the good things about Rotties, Great Danes and Boerboels as PPDs:

1) If the dog bites the owner, the owner won't suffer much.
2) Maintenance is high, and so will make the owner more motivated to work hard.
3) The breeds are ugly, and deter intruders just by their appearance.
4) If the owner gets hungry, there's a lot of dog to eat!!!

Yeah...I'll take a hug, sure, why not! If I'm ever in your neck of the woods, I'll make good on your offer.

:lol: :lol: 

Regarding Mals for PPD use in inexperienced hands...you are absolutely correct. Not an appropriate breed, in general...IMO.


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## Reinier Geel (Apr 4, 2006)

Ha ha ha :lol:  LOL :lol:  you have me on my back, now take that ugly mutt (MAL) off me!!!!

I will remember your advice it seems sound - "Knock (drop) some sense into him", does ring a bell?


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## Greg Long (Mar 27, 2006)

The way you both desribe Mals makes me wonder what a farmer in the time of the beginnings of the breed would have done with such an animal.I fully believe they would cull it.Now I know there isnt a big herd of wooly sheep around every corner that needs herding but I dont think the breed was always as unmanagable to the common citizen.Now I cant prove that through personal experience but it makes sense to me.There are still Mals who are calm and managable and very good workers and protectors although few and far between.I have even seen a few with some of these qualities in the past but I passed them over because at the time I was looking for drive drive drive.If I could do it over again I would have scooped them up in a heartbeat.This way the Mals are thought to be like today is not natural behavior for any dog....well maybe a lab :roll: .True you can "make the lights come on" through dilligent training and handling sometimes.
I have personally seen some very good mals and Ive seen a bunch that werent.My heart will always be with the GSD though.They seem to have some quality the others dont.There are many many now that arent fit for a family protection dog.Mainly because of poor health but also because of unmanagable drives.This excuse of "he just needs a job" is getting very old IMO.Certainly they are much better with a good amount of mental stimulation but that goes for any dog.A good dog is CALM , STABLE, SERIOUS and HEALTHY I really dont care what breed you are talking about.


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

Want my friends great dane? She'll scare the fedex guy but she's scared of the big yellow beach ball, pumpkins, the big blue ladder in the back yard, the new master bathroom after a house addition, her own food cans, etc etc etc.


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## Andres Martin (May 19, 2006)

Dogs don't just...grow up calm, serious and stable, do they?

You ever see that documentary re bull elephants growing up without adult bull elephants...and how they always went around knocking off rhinos? I don't mean knocking up...although perhaps they tried.

Same with dogs, I think. PPD, PSD, or whatever...you need to "team" up.

I don't think it's LUCK that all the dogs I have owned have been calm, serious, stable and healthy. Please don't burst my bubble. I want to think I had something to do with it!

Greg, Is there any chance that the Mals you saw were already adults? If so, the likelihood of them being raised "right" is high.

When you write, "they just need a job"...I must add that many dogs don't only need a job...they need a bunch of exercise. It's not a simple excuse. An active, bored, leaderless, disengaged, independent dog...is a pain in the ass.

If the breed is less active...the requirements are less, obviously.

Seriously, the less commercial the breed, the higher the likelihood that the individuals will be healthy, happy and "smart".

When we talk about advancement of PPDs, we need to talk about breeding first. The characteristics for a PPD differ from those of a pure sport dog, much like the Porsche Cayenne differs from a F-1. IMO, there should be breeding for "PPD", they should cost a lot of money, be trained only by scrupulous, able people...and sold only to wealthy, intelligent, able handlers...with a small propensity towards violence. :wink:


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## Al Curbow (Mar 27, 2006)

Reinier, you were kidding about the great dane thing, right?


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## Greg Long (Mar 27, 2006)

> Dogs don't just...grow up calm, serious and stable, do they?


I think some do.Genetics go hand in hand with training IMO.



> PPD, PSD, or whatever...you need to "team" up.


I totally agree!But again I think good breeding goes hand in hand with the success of the team and how far you can go. 



> I don't think it's LUCK that all the dogs I have owned have been calm, serious, stable and healthy. Please don't burst my bubble. I want to think I had something to do with it!


You did have alot to do with it but not everything :wink: I dont think you can take an unmanagable Mal and make it calm and stable all the time.




> Greg, Is there any chance that the Mals you saw were already adults? If so, the likelihood of them being raised "right" is high.


The mals I saw that were the best were adults and pups.Good genetics and good training......  



> When you write, "they just need a job"...I must add that many dogs don't only need a job...they need a bunch of exercise. It's not a simple excuse. An active, bored, leaderless, disengaged, independent dog...is a pain in the ass.


I agree but I hear alot that the reason the dog is a nutcase is that the dog just needs a job.Sure he needs a job but it isnt the only reason.It has to do with the dogs genetics and the owners attitude.



> If the breed is less active...the requirements are less, obviously


I would edit that to say "if the DOG is less active".  



> Seriously, the less commercial the breed, the higher the likelihood that the individuals will be healthy, happy and "smart".


I agree fully.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

I saw it, Andre!!! :lol: (hephalump documentary)


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## Reinier Geel (Apr 4, 2006)

Al Curbow said:


> Reinier, you were kidding about the great dane thing, right?


No Joking  I trained three for one customer - and i know am going to get into trouble again  but I always joked with her that they are as thick as concrete - you have to work them very gently when they grow up, very sensitive giants. However, when they mature around two three years old. Where they show a very high protection drive - and you just home it and let me tell you - Napoleon used them he had a whole brigade of fighting dogs - including Great Danes and Boerboel - i believe....so yes very much trainable I assure you. Great at obedience and distance controlI love them :wink:


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

Great at obedience because they yelp n panic if you correct em on a flat collar :lol: My friends always said their GD was slow at obedience because when you say "sit" it has to go from her head to her butt n it takes a while. I say sit n tug on her collar n her butt slams the ground. I say down n she's down faster than a malinois... but her head goes sideways because she's worried that, god forbid,, I touch her flat collar again :roll:

Im sure there's better great danes out there but I've seen about a handful n they're all sissies


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## Greg Long (Mar 27, 2006)

Im thinking of getting a Pitt Bull to protect my GSDs,Mals and Dutchies.


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## Andy Andrews (May 9, 2006)

Greg Long said:


> Im thinking of getting a Pitt Bull to protect my GSDs,Mals and Dutchies.




Finally seeing the light, aren't you? :lol: 




Andy.


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## Greg Long (Mar 27, 2006)

Do they have any working Pitts in South Africa?


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## Mark Busby (Feb 15, 2007)

This was a entertaining read, albeit off topic at times...

I like to think about what dogs were truly like hundreds of years ago, back in a day before training methodology had developed into ego. These "farm dogs" either functioned in their intended diverse jobs or were eliminated from the program. A natural selection :wink: 

8)


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## Reinier Geel (Apr 4, 2006)

Greg Long said:


> Do they have any working Pitts in South Africa?


 Well yes Greg, and we have Mac Donalds as well :wink: - (Joke), you mean those dogs with brick heads and no pain threshold you mean they call them pitts - plenty of them, I have just not ever seen them working as police or military dogs yet. Yes, they are trained as PPDs herevery-very few though, not nice in class, they are like crocks, you never know when they are going to take out the next dognot my favourite dog to train.


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