# "Open Carry" Gun States



## Patrick Murray (Mar 27, 2006)

I recently read an article about a guy who was arrested in Philadelphia for openly carrying his firearm. Apparently the arresting officer didn't know it was legal. Does anyone know if open-carry is in all of Pennsylvania? What other states is it in? What do you think of open-carry vs. concealed? Thanks.


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## Patrick Murray (Mar 27, 2006)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_carry_in_the_United_States

Ok, I googled "Open Carry States". This resource says California is an open-carry state in "rural" areas...CALIFORNIA! I can't believe. Do the liberals out there know that? Wow!


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## Jennifer Marshall (Dec 13, 2007)

My county in Oregon is open carry... the problem with open carry is that if someone becomes frightened by the fact that you have a firearm they can call the cops on you for "menacing." So hardly anybody carries openly... the only time it is common is up in the mountains during hunting season.


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## Summer Voth (Jan 20, 2008)

yes, PA is open carry..but grandma is likely to call the police on you if you open carry on your daily rounds.
Most people do not know PA is open carry, but it is so easy to get a concealed carry permit--it is just easier to do so then to have everyone calling the police on you:smile:

We just moved from PA and it took just a short while at the courthouse to obtain a CCP.


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## Matthew Grubb (Nov 16, 2007)

Philadelphia has a different open carry law than the remainder of the Commonwealth. In philly you must have a concealed carry license in order to open carry. In the rest of the state you can open carry at will. You CAN NOT open carry inside a vehicle without a concealed carry license.


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## Lori Gallo (May 16, 2011)

NH is open carry. Hardly anyone does though.


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## Patrick Murray (Mar 27, 2006)

Hey Matt, you're a cop, right? Do you ever actually see someone open-carry? Does it cause you to do a double-take? 

I guess it just shows how lacking I am on gun laws. I didn't realize people can open-carry. It sounds like it's worth the hassle though.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

I like guns, I like to shoot game animals and eat them.

I think most people in the States carry guns open or concealed to threaten other folks, you don't walk around town with a gun for hunting.

I don't think " the right to bear arms" is about hunting.


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## Summer Voth (Jan 20, 2008)

Thanks for clearing that up Matt! now I know...not that I will ever leave sunny AZ to come back to PA[-(


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

In Minnesota you can carry a gun if you are licensed , having what many term a " concealed carry permit " . The permit allows you to carry either concealed or in the open . 

Minnesota passed the law allowing the carrying of firearms only about 10 years ago . When it first came out it was a big deal in the local media but there was no explanation that permit holders could carry out in the open . 

Shortly after it was passed permit holders got together with the media and they did an undercover news episode having permit holders carry open at large public events where they knew there would be a large police presence . Some officers saw the guns , knew the new law and let them go about there day not stopping them others didn't and detained the parties til they clarified the parties ability to carry open . What the media didn't report was the large number of 911 calls about these parties from the general public , complaining about a person with a gun . Because most of the public back then and now still believe it is only lawful to carry a gun concealed . 

Now most officers know the "concealed carry law " but on the rare occassion a permit holder descides to carry in the open we still get a whole bunch "man with gun" calls . 

Here's a website about our law . 

http://apps.carryconcealed.net/legal/minnesota-ccw-state-laws.php


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

I am all for allowing folks to carry . But at least in Minnesota the government did a poor job of educating the public about permit holders being able to carry in the open . When someone carries in the open it upsets and scares many that see them resulting in alot of police calls . 

Overwhelmingly the permit holders are very responsible . I can only think of only a few incidents in the 10 plus years since it's been law where a permit holder has been recluse in there carrying or use of their weapon . 

BUT , experiance with those who chose to carry in the open are that they are attention seekers nothing more . JMO .


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Idaho is a open gun state.


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## jim kirkendall (Jan 31, 2009)

carrying concealed is the way to go.(with a chl) why tip the robbers and jackers!!You can not carry open in Texas yet!Long gun are a different story.You can have a weapon in your vehicle with out a license and same goes for your castle.


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Florida is currently open carry only if you are actively fishing or hunting...that includes within the city limits. There is now a big push for open carry without those stipulations. In the past couple months we've had rallies at the local parks where "fisherman" are carrying open and exercising their rights but they are also pushing for legislation for open carry anytime so these gatherings are political at this time.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Missouri is open carry but the state also says each city and county can decide if they want to allow it.
We have a great CC law but you can't carry open if you have a CCW.
I don't have anything against open carry but I see no need for it. "to me" it's a bit to Freudian to feel it necessary to walk around "flashing" a gun. It also gives the bad guy a huge advantage. He's not going to walk up and say give me your money, he's going to shoot you in the back and take your money AND gun.


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## Matthew Grubb (Nov 16, 2007)

Patrick Murray said:


> Hey Matt, you're a cop, right? Do you ever actually see someone open-carry? Does it cause you to do a double-take?
> 
> I guess it just shows how lacking I am on gun laws. I didn't realize people can open-carry. It sounds like it's worth the hassle though.


Wish I could tell you I was a famous doctor but I'm just a K9 Cop! \\/ I have only see it once... a guy in Starbucks OC'ing. It freaks people out and they call 911 about a "Man with a gun" and it gets messy after that. OC is a protected activity and is here to stay... weather America is ready for it as a whole is another question.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> I think most people in the States carry guns open or concealed to threaten other folks


](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

mike suttle said:


> ](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)



God catch Mike!
In Missouri if you have a CCW and even hint at threatening someone or start flashing it around your going to loose your right to the CCW.
I would think most CCW laws would be similar.
OC or CC, if you threaten someone with a firearm your ass is grass and the legal system is the lawn mower!


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

mike suttle said:


> ](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)


 
You can’t blame him his country brainwashed him from when he was young. In NJ there are so many rules to just getting your guns to the range you can’t keep up. Guns locked in cases placed in the trunk, ammo in the cabin. Sign in at the range, sign out at the range. Its written so you can’t comply. Only getting worse. Trying to figure out what is legal and what is not is just designed to tire you out so you don’t buy anything. I live in a communist state. 
 The bad boys in Newark just walk around with a pistol in their hand like it’s no big deal. Only the bad carry and it just aint worth the time to bust them.


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> I don't think " the right to bear arms" is about hunting.


Your right its not


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Bob Scott said:


> God catch Mike!
> In Missouri if you have a CCW and even hint at threatening someone or start flashing it around your going to loose your right to the CCW.
> I would think most CCW laws would be similar.
> OC or CC, if you threaten someone with a firearm your ass is grass and the legal system is the lawn mower!


Why do you carry then ??


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> Why do you carry then ??



Old habit from my old neighborhood, plus my son and I go to the range quite often. Sport shooting!
I don't carry that often since I moved 4 yrs ago.
No one but family and a few friends even knew I did. I had no reason or desire to make it known. That's were all the bs gets started when someone feels the need to be showing it off. 
It's a tool, not a toy! :wink:


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> Why do you carry then ??


I can not answer for everyone, but these are my thoughts.

I carry a gun because in my country and in my state I have the right to do so, not because I want to scare people, and not because I am scared myself, but rather to ensure the safety of myself, my family, and others around me.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Not that it matters, but I don't believe you. You carry a gun because it makes you feel safe.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

I actually was replying to Bob, but you confirmed what I said Mike.

I'm not trying to argue with you guys about this, just how I see it that's all.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> I actually was replying to Bob, but you confirmed what I said Mike.
> 
> I'm not trying to argue with you guys about this, just how I see it that's all.



Great to live in a country where you can say that you disagree isn't it!! That's one right I believe Mike and I would shoot someone to keep. :grin: :wink:


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## Brian McQuain (Oct 21, 2009)

Bob Scott said:


> Great to live in a country where you can say that you disagree isn't it!! That's one right I believe Mike and I would shoot someone to keep. :grin: :wink:


 
Im on your team. The only people who know (and now everyone here knows) I carry are my wife and the jackass up in Reno who thought he could break into my truck and jack me with a knife. Whoops. Its not there to show off or to scare people. I value my life and my wife's life above the parasite criminals who ARE armed to show off, scare people, and cause harm.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Bob Scott said:


> Great to live in a country where you can say that you disagree isn't it!! That's one right I believe Mike and I would shoot someone to keep. :grin: :wink:


Yes it is. Do you think I should be thanking you for that ?


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> Yes it is. Do you think I should be thanking you for that ?



Don't know why but you have the right to do so if you wish.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Sneaky focker, you got me there


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

:grin: :grin: :grin: My job is done here!


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## Pete Stevens (Dec 16, 2010)

Yes California is an open carry State but the weapon can not be loaded. You can have mags reay to go but not loaded in the mag well or round in the chamber. I know, its just as messed up as our Marijuana laws that no one can figure out and change every week. I'm very progun, pro- open carry and so are the majority of my coworkers. The laws in California allow for a peace officer to inspect any firearm in public. All of my experieces with the open carry folks have been pretty good. I'm polite to them and I have a interest in there guns. Some of them are very nice and respect the laws. Some are in it for shock value. Yes, the man with a gun call come in and we all go running towards the scene because just don't now what we are facing.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Personally, I think anyone that carries open carries is doing nothing more than saying; "hey, look what I've got". It's the ultimate "mine is bigger than yours" argument. There are of course exceptions, when hunting, on duty law enforcement, riding "the range" etc. I've carried a gun both on and off duty for more years than I care to remember. If I'm off-duty, chances are I'm armed. You'd never know it to look at me though. 

DFrost


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

I read about the guy almost getting shot by the dumb ass police in Philly about open carry. Turns out the cops didnt know the law they were meant to enforce, and as per standard opperating procedure they threw some trumped up charges on him when he posted the audio of it on youtube.
http://www.foxbusiness.com/on-air/s...arass-threaten-shoot-man-legally-carrying-gun

Lets see if the cops who threatened to shoot an innocent man get sacked.


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

David Frost said:


> Personally, I think anyone that carries open carries is doing nothing more than saying; "hey, look what I've got". It's the ultimate "mine is bigger than yours" argument. There are of course exceptions, when hunting, on duty law enforcement, riding "the range" etc. I've carried a gun both on and off duty for more years than I care to remember. If I'm off-duty, chances are I'm armed. You'd never know it to look at me though.
> 
> DFrost


From what I understand, and I could be wrong, open carry is what was considered honerable in the old days and concealed carry was looked down upon as someone being decepetive. So it was your right to carry in full view, but illegal to carry concealed? Thats why to have to get a licence to CC and not to open carry?
Its been awhile since I read into it but.


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## Jim Duncan (Jan 19, 2009)

Christopher Jones said:


> From what I understand, and I could be wrong, open carry is what was considered honerable in the old days and concealed carry was looked down upon as someone being decepetive. So it was your right to carry in full view, but illegal to carry concealed? Thats why to have to get a licence to CC and not to open carry?
> Its been awhile since I read into it but.


LMAO. We have open carry in my city and the drug dealers, bloods and crips that open carry are the most honorable of all of our criminals. The reason they open carry is because they don't have a CCP and aren't felons yet. We have a small park that was popular ro "hang out" in at night. We would get shots fired calls all the time and respond to find 30 guys in the park and about half were "suddenly" doing an open carry of their firearms. All you need to do is park and get out of the car and watch the shirts get dropped back over their holster. It is a $100 fine, but I would take the gun and send it off for all kinds of forensic tests that take about 9 months to come back. When the guns weren't claimed I would have them sent off for destruction. 

IMO, this isn't the old west and there is no need to open carry in an urban environment. We get guns and dope every day. It is incredibly easy to get a Concealed Carry Permit in my city. IME, law abiding citizens aren't doing open carry. Most people with any common sense do not want to advertise they are carrying a gun.

JMO.

Jim


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## John Dickinson (Apr 28, 2011)

This is a good site for carry info. It replaced the packing.org site that shut down.

http://www.usacarry.com/


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## catherine hardigan (Oct 12, 2009)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> I like guns, I like to shoot game animals and eat them.
> 
> I think most people in the States carry guns open or concealed to threaten other folks, you don't walk around town with a gun for hunting.
> 
> I don't think " the right to bear arms" is about hunting.


You're right in many ways. The second amendment is mostly an anachronism, but it's likely here to stay.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

I live in one of California's open carry counties. It is no big deal one way are another. It is easy to get a CC permit here largely because the response time for LE is just over an hour. I took the test a number of years ago and have the certificate but they raised the fee from $67 every 5 years to $170+ for 2 years. Never paid the fee because it just isn't that big a deal. Here rifles are carried in the window of the truck. Everyone has guns.


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## Brian McQuain (Oct 21, 2009)

Christopher Jones said:


> I read about the guy almost getting shot by the dumb ass police in Philly about open carry. Turns out the cops didnt know the law they were meant to enforce, and as per standard opperating procedure they threw some trumped up charges on him when he posted the audio of it on youtube.
> http://www.foxbusiness.com/on-air/s...arass-threaten-shoot-man-legally-carrying-gun
> 
> Lets see if the cops who threatened to shoot an innocent man get sacked.


 

Why didn’t the moron carrying the recorder and the pistol just comply with the police? Sounds like he was looking for this situation to happen. I personally would’ve just done what the officers asked, and the whole situation would’ve been squared away a heck of a lot faster. Where I live, like Don, firearms are everywhere. We are a tiny town with mostly ranchers, and 4 guns stores, yet I hardly ever see anyone open carry. You know they are probably carrying, but like most said already, it just attracts too much attention to open carry. I remember when I was in high school, a bunch of friends and I would walk down the street to “the sand pits” with shotguns slung over our shoulders to hunt quail, chukar, rabbits, ect , and the neighbors would pop their heads out only to ask what we were hunting and wish us good luck.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

catherine hardigan said:


> You're right in many ways. The second amendment is mostly an anachronism, but it's likely here to stay.


Really sorry you feel that way, not sure what country you live in but I'll bet there is room for you in Canada if you dont agreee with the 2nd amendment here in the USA.


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## Ashley Campbell (Jun 21, 2009)

Colorado is an open carry state. I do not have a CCW (didn't want to pay for it then have the Army move us again and have it not transfer as they are not transferrable to some states and aren't cheap)

What I like is Colorado has extended castle law. A gun in my car concealed say in the glove compartment is not considered "concealed" as if I had it on my body.

So no, I don't generally open carry unless I"m out hiking and may have a need to protect myself - from wild creatures or people as the case may be. Generally, I do have it on me, but leave it in the glove box. I'd rather have it and not need it, than need it and not have it. In the event I'm pulled over for a traffic violation, I just tell them that I do have it and it's location in the car and let them instruct me on how they want to handle it. Back home in AZ, I'd just put it on the dashboard in plain view and keep my hands away from it so they don't get nervous. Win/win

From what I understand, Arizona just went to a similar law that Vermont has. No CCW required for concealed carry. You can still get a CCW if you want to avoid the whole background check when buying a weapon, but for basic carry, you can carry concealed without it legally.


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## Adi Ibrahimbegovic (Nov 21, 2008)

Texas is not open carry, just CHL, and I prefer it that way.

There is absolutely no need whatsoever to have a gun in plain view in a city. What's the point, I don't see any? "Look what I got"? I am one bad mo fo, I got a gun strapped to my waist? Please.

You don't need any kind of anything in Texas to have a gun in your car or to have a gun in your house. To carry it with you outside of your car and house, you need a CHL. I think it is a reasonable law and most people with CHL, currently between 200k and 300k are normal, sane, law abiding citizens.

CHL is not that easy to get here in Texas, a mandatory class for a full day with a certified instructor, passing grade at the range actualy shooting your gun, plus passing a written test, fingerprinting and sending the finger prints to law enforcement.

Then, wait 3 months and you will get your CHL. Then, repeat the same thing after 4 (or 5, not sure) years.


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## Brian McQuain (Oct 21, 2009)

catherine hardigan said:


> The second amendment is mostly an anachronism, but it's likely here to stay.


Wow. What an ignorant statement.


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## catherine hardigan (Oct 12, 2009)

mike suttle said:


> Really sorry you feel that way, not sure what country you live in but I'll bet there is room for you in Canada if you dont agreee with the 2nd amendment here in the USA.


I don't have a problem with responsible gun ownership; I have a problem when people trot out the second amendment as their only means of defending it. If you want public gun ownership to stick around you have to be able make an intelligent, fact-based argument to preserve it, and this is something most gun owners don't bother to do.

And if I wanted to avoid guns I wouldn't move to Canada... they have tons of them up there.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Delaware has an open carry, but you are also restricted as to the places you can go, open or concealed! Also, I would contact the AG's office for this type of issue and not a forum. Who needs a felony charge?!


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## Brian McQuain (Oct 21, 2009)

catherine hardigan said:


> I don't have a problem with responsible gun ownership; I have a problem when people trot out the second amendment as their only means of defending it. If you want public gun ownership to stick around you have to be able make an intelligent, fact-based argument to preserve it, and this is something most gun owners don't bother to do.


 
I think Chris Matthews thought the same way when he attempted to make a gun totin' demonstrator look like a fool on his show. I would say the majority of gun owners do have intelligent, fact-based arguments, not the other way around.


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

catherine hardigan said:


> I don't have a problem with responsible gun ownership; I have a problem when people trot out the second amendment as their only means of defending it. If you want public gun ownership to stick around you have to be able make an intelligent, fact-based argument to preserve it, and this is something most gun owners don't bother to do.
> 
> And if I wanted to avoid guns I wouldn't move to Canada... they have tons of them up there.


Civillians can no longer own handguns in Canada. Plus their are many restrictions on types of guns that can be owned.


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## catherine hardigan (Oct 12, 2009)

Ben Thompson said:


> Civillians can no longer own handguns in Canada. Plus their are many restrictions on types of guns that can be owned.


Make it neutral Switzerland then, where men of military age are required to have a gun as a part of their service.


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## James Idi (Apr 19, 2009)

Virginia has / had open carry, and we never had issues in the rural areas. I wouldn't open carry in pretty much any urban / suburban area though, simply because urban culture almost automatically associates firearms with criminal / hostile intent unless a uniform and badge are part of the package.

Much like the ignorant who would call the cops about trainers "abusing" their dogs with a (insert dog sport helper stick of choice), there are many ignorant individuals who would call the cops simply because they saw a "man with a gun!!!!!!!!!". It's not worth the potential hassle.

Concealed carry is the way to go.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

catherine hardigan said:


> Make it neutral Switzerland then, where men of military age are required to have a gun as a part of their service.


Catherine, maybe the pro gun and 2nd Amendment folks could use you as their poster girl and just let you make their case. First you say guns are everywhere in Canada, which is far from factual. Then you go to Switzerland....which just,proves guns are good. I haven't looked this up but I would be willing to bet, since everyone has guns, the crime rate is low. Real low. Much lower than those that don't have guns. Seems when guns are taken away, the citizenry feels vulnerable and guns are replaced with semi trained dogs. Gerry has two I believe. If we lose our guns here in the US, working dogs, as in dogs trained to bite, will be one of the most popular things going. It is about feeling secure.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

We have no guns here as such in the UK, according to wikipedia...

The United Kingdom has one of the lowest rates of gun homicides in the world. The overall homicide rate is also low. In England and Wales (the most populous part of the United Kingdom) the rate is below the EU average, about four times lower than that of the United States but on almost the same level as in Canada.[1] Its police officers do not routinely carry a firearm, and both the public and the police prefer this to continue.[2]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_the_United_Kingdom

I'm happy we don't have guns here, I find them very intimidating indeed. I also wouldn't say personal protection dogs or dogs trained to bite are big here either, quite the contrary, lots of laws pertaining to dogs which bite whether on your own property or not.

I wouldn't say I feel insecure.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

That's just homicides Maggie. You say it is about 4 times lowr than the US. What is the population difference....more than 4 times maybe?


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## Brian McQuain (Oct 21, 2009)

So there are no guns in the UK, but there are still gun related crimes in the UK? Weird.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Brian McQuain said:


> So there are no guns in the UK, but there are still gun related crimes in the UK? Weird.


Do you think all we have are law abiding citizens like ?


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## catherine hardigan (Oct 12, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Catherine, maybe the pro gun and 2nd Amendment folks could use you as their poster girl and just let you make their case. First you say guns are everywhere in Canada, which is far from factual. Then you go to Switzerland....which just,proves guns are good. I haven't looked this up but I would be willing to bet, since everyone has guns, the crime rate is low. Real low. Much lower than those that don't have guns. Seems when guns are taken away, the citizenry feels vulnerable and guns are replaced with semi trained dogs. Gerry has two I believe. If we lose our guns here in the US, working dogs, as in dogs trained to bite, will be one of the most popular things going. It is about feeling secure.


My point was that living in a country with high rates of gun ownership doesn't bother me. 

But here's a question for you:

Canada, Finland, Norway, Switzerland and probably several other countries all have similarly high rates of gun ownership (around 30% of households), yet their violent crime rates, including those involving guns, are drastically lower than here in the States. Why do you think that is? Clearly lots of guns don't equate more crimes, nor do they really prevent those crimes from happening. So what are those countries doing differently, or what do they have that we don't?


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## Brian McQuain (Oct 21, 2009)

Interesting article: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/1566715.stm


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

There are about 5 times the people here and god only knows how many guns....and you only have 4 times less homicides with no guns?? You need to get a better argument Maggie. Put your head together with Catherine.


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## Brian McQuain (Oct 21, 2009)

maggie fraser said:


> Do you think all we have are law abiding citizens like ?


 
Nope.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> That's just homicides Maggie. You say it is about 4 times lowr than the US. What is the population difference....more than 4 times maybe?


I dunno Don, I think they are talking in relative averages.

If there are firearms involved in any crime here, it is big news, and from what I recall has often been drug related. I've never seen or known of a civilian with a gun here.

Funnily enough a guy not so far away from here was murdered last year, he had been shot, by an eastern European immigrant.


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Brian McQuain said:


> Why didn’t the moron carrying the recorder and the pistol just comply with the police? Sounds like he was looking for this situation to happen. I personally would’ve just done what the officers asked, and the whole situation would’ve been squared away a heck of a lot faster. .


I think I saw something like that on TV once.
Oh yeah this was it
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4rtwb34Pd1k


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## catherine hardigan (Oct 12, 2009)

You have to look at the rates, Don. The rates are in terms of number of guns per size of population, or number of homicides per population etc. These numbers account for those differences in population size as they are expressed essentially as percents.


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

For anyone who thinks Guns = Murder please read this.
Get some facts and figures before you talk.
http://www.fraserinstitute.org/WorkArea/DownloadAsset.aspx?id=4075


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> There are about 5 times the people here and god only knows how many guns....and you only have 4 times less homicides with no guns?? You need to get a better argument Maggie. Put your head together with Catherine.


 
No need to get snotty Don.

I just stumbled across this http://www.gun-control-network.org/INS1210.htm gives more specific numbers for you. Apparently 58 gun homicides in GB 2010, half of them in London.

I've never read this link or anything like it before. Like I said, I'm happy with how things are here.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

IS there a button my computer that can make this thread invisible? I have just about bitten my tounge completely off here!!!


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## Brian McQuain (Oct 21, 2009)

http://montego.roughwheelers.com/gun_cam.html


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

maggie fraser said:


> No need to get snotty Don.
> 
> I just stumbled across this http://www.gun-control-network.org/INS1210.htm gives more specific numbers for you. Apparently 58 gun homicides in GB 2010, half of them in London.
> 
> I've never read this link or anything like it before. Like I said, I'm happy with how things are here.


Maggie, I am not getting snotty....just stating the facts....maybe with a touch of sarcasm. LOL


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Maggie, I am not getting snotty....just stating the facts....maybe with a touch of sarcasm. LOL


That's just what we call snotty Don LOL

Have you looked at the figures yet ? LOL


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## James Idi (Apr 19, 2009)

An excellent example of contrasting approaches to firearms in the U.S. is the state of Vermont, and the city of Washington, D.C.. Vermont allows the unlicensed concealed and open carry of handguns by all citizens legally entitled to own a firearm throughout the state.

Vermont population 2009: 621K
Vermont homicides 2009: 7 total
0 by firearms
7 by other methods

Washington D.C. has had some of the strictest laws barring citizens from legally possessing and carrying firearms for decades, and yet they are always among the highest per-capita murder rate areas in the nation.

D.C. population 2009: 599K
D.C. homicides 2009: 144 total
113 by firearms
31 by other means

FBI UCR for 2009 source: http://www2.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2009/data/table_20.html

Laws restricting firearms FAIL MISERABLY to prevent homicides in the nations capitol, and yet, pretty much total freedom to own and CARRY firearms resulted in ZERO firearm homicides in the state of Vermont.

Why?

Because firearms are NOT responsible for crime, humans are. Period.

Fortunately, there are still places here in the U.S. that believe in freedom of the individual, and do not pass laws infringing on individual rights due to the few idiots in our ranks.


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## catherine hardigan (Oct 12, 2009)

James Idi said:


> An excellent example of contrasting approaches to firearms in the U.S. is the state of Vermont, and the city of Washington, D.C.. Vermont allows the unlicensed concealed and open carry of handguns by all citizens legally entitled to own a firearm throughout the state.
> 
> Vermont population 2009: 621K
> Vermont homicides 2009: 7 total
> ...


Be careful not to confuse a correlation for causality... I learned that the hard way in several multivariate statistics classes. It's pretty easy to show correlations between two completely unrelated events, and I think it has been abused by both pro and anti gun proponents.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

mike suttle said:


> IS there a button my computer that can make this thread invisible? I have just about bitten my tounge completely off here!!!


Alt/F4


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Catherine, you stated earlier that the pro gun people never could come up with and facts. They always come up with fact and if you find youself making comparisons of one lax place to a strict place, the answer is always the same. Less crime where the majority of people have guns. What James is illustrating is fact. To counter, your trying to baffle with bullshit. That is the way it always happens when you have no supportive facts.


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## Pete Stevens (Dec 16, 2010)

I've been in law enforcement for 21 years and so far have never been to a accidental shooting of a child. I have been to numerous child pool drowings. I work in a city with a population of over 240,000 so it isn't a huge city but it ain't no hick town either. I also work very close to the border with Mexico. Everyone has heard or read about the violence there. Most of it involving firearms and guns are illegal in Mexico.


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## catherine hardigan (Oct 12, 2009)

Don, what James wrote was not fact but correlation, and his personal conclusions based on that correlation. There is a BIG difference. 

I'll assume that most people have never taken multivariate statistics (it sucks), so I'll just list hard, factual numbers:

If you look at Vermont in particular it is not exactly representative of the country as a whole. For example, Vermont has fewer than 700,000 people in the whole state (there are more people living in Detroit). It is 96% white, as opposed to the US as a whole which is about 80% white (not very diverse). Vermont has a roughly 9% poverty rate compared to the national average of 15%, and it's unemployment rate is 6% while the national average is around 9%. Bernie Sanders, one of their Senators, describes himself as a "democratic socialist."

Let's compare these numbers with Washington DC. Washington has a population of 600,000 in 61.4 square miles (that's 9,378 people per square mile). According to the census the city is 54% African American, 40.6% white, 3.2% Asian, and .4% American Indian... pretty darn diverse. DC has a poverty rate of 16.9% and an unemployment rate of about 10%. As an aside, about 1/3 of Washington DC residents are functionally illiterate, while only 7% of people in Vermont are. I realize that "functional illiteracy" is a metric, but it is one that is commonly used.

Where would you rather live? Where do you think the overall quality of life is higher? Do you really think these things have nothing to do with crime rates?

If you really want me to play devil's advocate and argue against public gun ownership I can... but I'd rather not hurt any feelings. And like I said, the guns aren't causing the crimes (and probably not preventing them either), it's more likely the socio-economic stratification that our country turns a blind eye to.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

:-k Ban guns!

:-k Ban pitbulls

:-k Is it really the gun or the dog that needs banning?
Seems like back in the depression era there was an attempt to ban booze. 
Was it the booze or the ban that put criminals in such powerful, dangerous positions?

It's an oldie but goodie;
"When guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns!


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Australia had a massive crackdown on gun laws in 1995 after the Pt Arthur Massacre (35 shot dead). They banned all Semi Auto's, pump action shotguns and brought in strict licencing and manditory safes. Pistols are avaiable still but you must be the member of a gun club and dio club shoots a certain amount of times a year to keep your licence. 
Prior to 1995 we had the same gun rights as the USA. 
There has been NO decrease on average per population stats after the gun control measures came in. And nearly all gun crime is commited by unlicened people with unregistered guns. Alot of politicans admit they gun controls were too harsh and only law abiding citizens have been hurt by them.
In New Zealand they have very liberal gun laws similar to the USA, and NZ is no more violent that Australia is.
Now even though it has been a failed experiment here, there is a snow balls chance in hell of them going back to where they were prior to 1995.
Learn from our **** up.


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

Maybe instead of using a gun to defend themselves the anti-gun crowd could quote a statistic from "wikipedia" on why the bad guy shouldn't actually go through with the crime. I'm sure that will work.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Christopher Jones said:


> Australia had a massive crackdown on gun laws in 1995 after the Pt Arthur Massacre (35 shot dead). They banned all Semi Auto's, pump action shotguns and brought in strict licencing and manditory safes. Pistols are avaiable still but you must be the member of a gun club and dio club shoots a certain amount of times a year to keep your licence.
> Prior to 1995 we had the same gun rights as the USA.
> There has been NO decrease on average per population stats after the gun control measures came in. And nearly all gun crime is commited by unlicened people with unregistered guns. Alot of politicans admit they gun controls were too harsh and only law abiding citizens have been hurt by them.
> In New Zealand they have very liberal gun laws similar to the USA, and NZ is no more violent that Australia is.
> ...


Hey Chris, sounds like you should move to Vermont. LOL


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## Jeff Wright (Mar 10, 2011)

I just refuse to argue with gun haters anymore.
I had one guy debate me just the other day at a party about the Second Amendment.
Had to point out that there was no more arguing, The Supreme Court Settled it in Heller last year.
Game Over.


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## jeremy anderson (Mar 19, 2010)

I live in Mesa/Phx. Arizona (Urban). We don't have to have a ccw to carry concealed here. We don't even have to have a licence. As long as your legal & the weapon is legal it's ok. 
I carry mine on the motorcycle outside of my shirt & under my shirt other times. I check my pistol with the bartender at the bar or leave it in my glove box if I drive.
The cops don't bother you about it. Criminals are going to have guns no matter how strict the laws are. 
If someone was going to rob a store & saw half of the customers with pistols on there hips he's probably gonna think twice about it.
If you make it illegal for law abiding citizens to carry then only the criminals are going to have the guns

I don't carry it because i'm scared, or to look like a tough guy, I carry it because I can. I would rather have it & not need it than need it & not have it ;-)


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## Brian McQuain (Oct 21, 2009)

jeremy anderson said:


> I don't carry it because i'm scared, or to look like a tough guy, I carry it because I can. I would rather have it & not need it than need it & not have it ;-)


Kinda like a spare tire. Or a fire extinguisher.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Brian McQuain said:


> Kinda like a spare tire. Or a fire extinguisher.


Or an extra kidney.


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> Or an extra kidney.


What about an extra nipple?


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Christopher Jones said:


> What about an extra nipple?


You might find a compatible person that needs your extra kidney. I don't think there would be any interest in your extra nipple, but I've never been to Australia so ???????


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

catherine hardigan said:


> My point was that living in a country with high rates of gun ownership doesn't bother me.
> 
> But here's a question for you:
> 
> Canada, Finland, Norway, Switzerland and probably several other countries all have similarly high rates of gun ownership (around 30% of households), yet their violent crime rates, including those involving guns, are drastically lower than here in the States. Why do you think that is? Clearly lots of guns don't equate more crimes, nor do they really prevent those crimes from happening. So what are those countries doing differently, or what do they have that we don't?


 
Ill guess less immigration and diversity of the people and leave it at that


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## Brian McQuain (Oct 21, 2009)

Christopher Jones said:


> What about an extra nipple?


 
Weird Aussies


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Christopher Jones said:


> What about an extra nipple?


Ya, I thought it was a gift as well...apparently the chicks don't dig it


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Intersting article . We don't have many incidents like this around here . I've only heard of about 3 others like this in the 20 years I've been a cop . 

http://www.startribune.com/local/minneapolis/122227464.html


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

Mr Jones is your real name Francisco Scaramanga?


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Lame, I had to google that, and I watched the damn movie a couple of weeks ago.


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## Thomas Jones (Feb 4, 2011)

you can open carry in AL but you cant have it in a vehicle without a permit so if you carry you have to walk everywhere


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## Patrick Murray (Mar 27, 2006)

This is a follow up to the initial article that stirred my interest. As I indicated earlier, I didn't know it was legal to walk around with a gun on your hip, not that I was necessarily opposed to it. I've just never seen it before and I know it would alarm me to see someone walking around with a gun in full sight. I think some parts of the country are cool with it (Montana, etc.) but others, say Philadelphia, might want to ammend their laws. The guy in this article was looking to create a stir and he got it although he could have been shot. I agree with the notion here that guns should be concealed. I think most people automatically think that someone walking around with a gun in plain sight is about to cause big trouble. There's no need for that. 

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/201...lice-say-wont-look-way-open-carry-gun-owners/

*After Altercation, Philadelphia Police Say They Won't Look the Other Way on Open-Carry Gun Owners*

By Stephen Clark
Published May 21, 2011
| FoxNews.com

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http://www.foxnews.com/politics/201...ice-say-wont-look-way-open-carry-gun-owners/#Text Size http://www.foxnews.com/politics/201...ice-say-wont-look-way-open-carry-gun-owners/#









Mark Fiorino
Mark Fiorino, a suburban Philadelphia IT worker, is in legal trouble after posting to YouTube an audiotape of his encounter with Philadelphia police over his unconcealed handgun. 

With a shocking altercation between Philadelphia police and a 25-year-old IT worker putting the spotlight back on open-carry gun laws, local authorities are warning gun owners that they will be "inconvenienced" if they carry unconcealed handguns in the city.
Lt. Raymond Evers, a spokesman for the city police, told FoxNews.com that gun owners who open carry, which is legal in the city, may be asked to lay on the ground until officers feel safe while they check permits.
"Philadelphia, in certain areas, is very dangerous," he said. "There's a lot of gun violence." Several officers have been killed in the line of duty in the past three years, local authorities say.
The warning comes after Mark Fiorino, a suburban Philadelphia IT worker, posted an audiotape to YouTube of his tense, 45-minute encounter with police in February over his exposed handgun. The video went viral and captured national attention.
After Fiorino released the audiotape, he was charged with disorderly conduct and reckless endangerment. He now faces up to two years in prison.












"The police department and assistant district attorney are coming after me, in my opinion, to make an example of me because I stood up to them and exposed them for their lack of knowledge," Fiorino said, who called the trial "absolutely inappropriate and a waste of taxpayer money."
Fiorino said he did nothing reckless, nor did he endanger anyone's life.
"I had a gun pointed at my chest," he said.
Only seven states ban the practice of openly carrying guns, and Pennsylvania isn't one of them, according to OpenCarry.org, which advocates gun rights. In Philadelphia, a permit is required to carry handguns openly. But on Feb. 13 a police sergeant who was unaware of the law -- which dates back to at least 1996 when the state Supreme Court referenced it in an unrelated ruling -- stopped Fiorino, who was walking to an auto parts shop in Northeast Philadelphia with a gun on his hip.
Sgt. Michael Dougherty can be heard yelling out to Fiorino as "Junior," and asking him to show his hands as Fiorino protests having a gun pointed at his chest, prompting Dougherty to call for backup.
Dougherty grows increasingly agitated as Fiorino offers to show his permit when he is ordered to get on his knees, causing Dougherty to threaten to shoot if he makes a move. Dougherty then unleashed a string of profanities as the two argued over the legality of open carry.
"Do you know you can't openly carry here in Philadelphia?" Dougherty yells.
"Yes, you can, if you have a license to carry firearms," Fiorino responds."It's Directive 137. It's your own internal directive."
When several other officers arrive, Fiorino is forced to the ground as he tries to explain that he's not breaking the law.
"Shut the f---- up!" Dougherty yells.
Police found the recorder while searching Fiorino's pockets. Officers eventually released him after speaking to the department's lawyer and being told that he was within his legal rights.
Police Commissioner Charles Ramsey took issue with Dougherty's language and his lack of knowledge about the law during the altercation, Evers said, but not with the stop itself.
Evers, who has been an officer for nearly 20 years, said "very rarely do people open carry in Philadelphia." But he added he wasn't make excuses.
"We weren't as up on that crime code as we should have been," he said, adding that officers are being re-educated on open carry in response to the incident.
Dougherty is facing disciplinary action pending the outcome of an internal affairs investigation, Evers said.
Fiorino's trial is scheduled to begin in July and the district attorney's office emphasizes that Fiorino's response to the police, not his gun rights, are at issue.
"This office respects and upholds the rights of a citizen to lawfully carry a firearm," Tasha Jamerson, a spokeswoman for the district attorney's office, said in a statement emailed to FoxNews.com. "The permit to carry a concealed weapon, however, does not mean that a permitholder can abuse that right by refusing to cooperate with police."
Jamerson said Fiorino "allegedly became belligerent and hostile" when police officers "were legally attempting to investigate a potential crime."
But Fiorino's attorney, Joseph Valvo, said the case is larger than Fiorino.
"It's my position that this entire prosecution is an effort by Philadelphia authorities to send a message to legitimate gun owners that open carry as a practice is not welcome in Philadelphia despite the fact that it's constitutionally protected behavior and that's offensive to me as a citizen and as a lawyer," Valvo said.
Gun rights advocates say they're are also offended.
John Pierce, a co-founder of OpenCarry.org said, Philadelphia police have sent a clear message to gun owners that will chill their rights to openly carry.
"Even if it's legal, we can punish you financially and by disruptions in your life," he said.
But the district attorney's office dismissed as "ludicrous" claims it is seeking retaliation or trying to send a message.
"This office only charges people with offenses that we think we can prosecute," Jamerson said in an interview with FoxNews.com. "We just don't willy-nilly charge a person with a crime as retaliation for an incident."
The February incident wasn't the first time Philadelphia police officers have confronted Fiorino about his unconcealed gun. Since July, he has been stopped twice and he has had an audio recorder on him each time in case a cop is having a bad day or doesn't understand the law, he said.
His handgun was confiscated once for five months, but neither occasion escalated like the third encounter.
Fiorino said he studied Pennsylvania law for a year before he started openly carrying a gun. He said he carries the gun openly because some of his friends have been held up at gunpoint and he's not willing to allow himself to be helpless.
Police spokesman Evers said Fiorino appears to be inviting trouble from the law by "surreptitiously" recording his encounters with police.
"If you put everything together, it was more than him walking down the street to go to an auto parts store -- without a jacket in the middle of winter," Evers said.
But Fiorino denies that he was looking for trouble.
"How many times does a convenience store need to be robbed to be justified in putting up a security system?" he said.




Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/201...look-way-open-carry-gun-owners/#ixzz1N16Lw86X


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## Thomas Jones (Feb 4, 2011)

Ain't he the guy that goes around and tries to set cops up for lawsuits by getting them to do the wrong thing. I'm on a phone and didn't read everything you just posted but I noticed the name. 

You also have to put yourself in the cops shoes though. Your going up to a person you know has a gun readily accessible and can be loaded in a split second. I mean that could really turn into a bad situation with 2 clashing attitudes


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## Patrick Murray (Mar 27, 2006)

I absolutely agree with you, Thomas.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Comes down to which is best. A gun holstered in plain sight ....or a gun being locked and loaded in the guys hand inside a coat pocket that has bad intentions.


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