# Non 'civil' PPD?



## Hoyt Yang (Dec 26, 2007)

I am not sure if this has been discussed in the forums here, but I'd like to know what everyone's opinion is about a dog's role as a personal protection dog, if there does not seem to be much, if any, civil aggression. 

I have an 11 month old mal that is confident with bitework in virtually every situation. He is extremely forward in bitework, and passes with flying colors regardless of the type of stress placed on him. With a bite suit or without, he pulls towards the helper once given the 'watch him' or 'attack' command. 

After a 3 week acclimation period with the muzzle, he did extremely well the first time on the muzzle attack. I was pleasantly surprised, since I was certain that he was fixated on the suit. On his third session with the muzzle, we've deployed multiple attackers on the handler- and again, excellent. We have since escalated to various scenarios a PPD may face in real life. In every situation, with a muzzle or hidden sleeve, he never hesitated and was flawless. I have also noted that his 'outs' are not as clean with the hidden sleeve, as with the body suit.

The problem? He NEVER shows aggression. The only time he will even BARK (and it's not even a solid bark, more like a high pitched whine) is when the decoy runs away from us and I have him on a leash. The only other time he barks, is late at night, when someone walks by the house. Even then, it's not an intense or angry bark- more like a few 'woofs', as in saying, who's there? I have never heard a growl, or a showing of teeth. In fact, unlike my other dogs, I WISH I CAN HEAR HIM BARK!

The dog definitely loves to engage with the bad guy- and in every situation, his confidence has grown. When the pool guy or gardener comes into the backyard (he is in his kennel), he will remain silent- and just stare.

I've had dogs that were confident like this dog, but would be barking and growling like crazy when someone came in the backyard. They had a very low threshold for aggression.. where this dog seems to NOT HAVE aggression at all.

I've heard of dogs locked in prey.. but this doesn't seem to fit this dog. He will pull towards the decoy even after the sleeve is slipped, or thrown to the side.

What type of drive is this dog displaying? And is this type of temperament suitable as a PPD? Has anyone known of dogs similar, and was there any solution in bringing out more display in civil aggression? Furthermore, is it necessary to bring out civil drive?

Any comments or suggestions are welcome!


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## Hoyt Yang (Dec 26, 2007)

Boy... just reviewed my post, it seems a bit confusing and incoherant. Must be the time (2 AM PST)! Please feel free to ask if there are parts unclear. I look forward to everyone's opinions!


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

I've met a bunch of dogs (some of which are proven PSD's), GSD, Mal, Dutchie, who don't have much of a "defensive threat display", but they will bite whatever/whoever you point at without hesitation. Some of them don't even realize they're in a "fight", they just wanna bite something and are very serious about wanting to bite.


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

yep, what Mike said..


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## Bryan Colletti (Feb 16, 2007)

Hoyt I will aggree with the non barking not being an issue, he is a very confident boy. My only concern is the fact that is still a "boy". You have a wonderful animal there, dont push too much on him. He is 11 months old. If you want to find a breaking point in him, you may end up doing just that

The straight up toughest meanest dog I train, will not bark, snarl, or growl. It is a waste of his energy, he just wants to go.

Be at peace,
Bryan


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## Justin Eimer (Oct 17, 2006)

Hoyt~
I tend to agree with what has already been said. I think that from the way you described the non-barking before a bite, is most likely that he was never required to bark for the bite. A lot of Mals (and other high drive working dogs) won't bark when they get all amped up. I have always preferred the bark before the bite (it's what I learned), so I have always required for the dogs I work to bark or they don't get the bite. I personally think that the civil display is the "warning", the "air raid horn" that lets the bad guy know that a big can of "whoop a$$" is about to be opened up if he does not depart the area/cease and desist." Sometimes the threat of violence works just as well as the actual use of violence, so I like for it to be a convincing threat. However, your dog is just a pup. He does sound like he is very confident and ready to rock and roll. You don't want to rush into anything that he can't handle. At the same time, if he is progressing nicely and not giving any indication that he is uncomfortable then keep it up. The reason that your dog gets more radical on the hidden sleeve, is most likely that it looks/feels different and awkward. Some dogs show confusion with this type of training, just as many dogs show confusion the first time they get a live bite. He will get over it. Just keep the pressure either non-exsistant or very limited until he shows a little more confidence on this type of training. Also remember, you can over do hidden sleeve work. It is really just a proof that you throw in there to see if your dog will engage a suspect/bad guy appearing to not be wearing any protective gear. All of that being said, I have known dogs that were very quiet under agitation, but that were quite determined to hurt the agitator and not play with him (Mike Turners dog Grim (GSD) is like that, but I have worked to get him to put on a display which is intended to end most confrontations without a bite). Your pup will probably be just fine if you don't push too hard or too fast. From what you have shared, your dog does not appear to be locked in prey. His warning to strangers may be nothing more than how he knows to communicate, "I'll bite your a$$ if you come onto my territory.", but "You don't have to know it until it happens.". :-D Sounds like a nice, confident, pup, with a neat personality. Be good to him. ~Justin


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Hoyt, Everything that has been posted to you on this , I agree with. You do have a nice dog. I too like to hear the dog bark and we train it the same way that Justin has indicated in his post.


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## Hoyt Yang (Dec 26, 2007)

I've always been taught too that the bark precedes the bite. And in the case of a PPD, threat display is nice to have before the dog actually has to attack. I certainly believe I have an excellent dog, and I am grateful to say the least! 

What I will do now is back up in my training, and work to have him bark in prey.. if it's possible. I believe once he learns that his bark has an effect and 'power' over the decoy (ie, his barks will get him closer to the fleeing decoy- thus enable him to bite), he should catch on. What I need is more time with an excellent decoy that can react in time to each and every 'bark.'

Thanks guys, for all the reassurance and excellent advise.


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## Hoyt Yang (Dec 26, 2007)

Justin, 

You mentioned Mike Turners dog as being similar, but you were able to get the dog to 'put on a display' without actually biting. Can you share some of the ways you were able to achieve this? Thanks in advance!


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## Bryan Colletti (Feb 16, 2007)

Careful what you wish for here. I personally finding barking nonsense. I do what I can to make a cap drive and protect his/her energy. Barking is a Schutzhund thing from the bark and hold. Some judges will judge you harshly for a lack of a vigorous bark. This is [email protected]$##% In some of the other sports where a dog is on the field for a very long time in the sun and humidity. You dont want him leaking drive everywhere, burning himself out waiting for a bite, especially at the size of your dog. Some dogs load themselves when barking too and dont think clearly.

Now if you look at it from a purely real world deployment point of view, barking gives away position.

Now, if you still really want the barking, it is easy enough. Manipulate him into teaching himself that a bark induces the decoy to come forward, more barking >>>>>>> move closer, to a bite. He may now never SHUT THE HELL UP LOL

Bryan









Hoyt Yang said:


> I've always been taught too that the bark precedes the bite. And in the case of a PPD, threat display is nice to have before the dog actually has to attack. I certainly believe I have an excellent dog, and I am grateful to say the least!
> 
> What I will do now is back up in my training, and work to have him bark in prey.. if it's possible. I believe once he learns that his bark has an effect and 'power' over the decoy (ie, his barks will get him closer to the fleeing decoy- thus enable him to bite), he should catch on. What I need is more time with an excellent decoy that can react in time to each and every 'bark.'
> 
> Thanks guys, for all the reassurance and excellent advise.


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## Bryan Colletti (Feb 16, 2007)

What I will do now is back up in my training, and work to have him bark in prey.. if it's possible. I believe once he learns that his bark has an effect and 'power' over the decoy (ie, his barks will get him closer to the fleeing decoy- thus enable him to bite), he should catch on. What I need is more time with an excellent decoy that can react in time to each and every 'bark.'

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I prefer to back up and do this in reverse. Tie the dog out, Decoy moves very slow or not at all ten or more yards out. This may take some time and patience. My old dog Bunk, took several minutes to make a decoy move. 

You stay silent, decoy silent and unanimated. Frustration in your dog's mind will make do things to push this along. Eventually a bark or whine, any sound should be praised by YOU Hoyt and as well by animated forward movement by the decoy. If he barks only once, then have your decoy come to five yards and repeat the borning very slow posturing. Next sound out of the dog, shall then produce tons of praise from you and a quick run bye sleeve bite, slip it and have him carry it off the field and put him up. ONE BITE!

Be clear with your decoy before Stan even comes out, script it perfectly, be intuitive about the situation, seeing what problems your decoy may cause or how he might react to a prolonged period of being stared down by Stan with no barking. 

I also prefer to use a blind here, because sometimes quickly hiding behind can produce more frustration in Stan. 

The Whole idea to teach Stan to train himself. Stan needs to realize and he will catch on quickly that "Shoot, I barked and brought him closer to me, let's try that again!" The trick is a savy high spirited decoy who can act and sell this lesson to Stan. If you would like to buy a ticket and come here, we can do it)

Bryan


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## Bryan Colletti (Feb 16, 2007)

I should also mention, this is not a mental defense from the decoy. He must have eye contact during his unemotional side to side slow walk with periods of stopping or hiding behind the blind. He should look completely disinterested in STAN and look down at the ground or away.

Only when that magical moment happens that Stan calls out, "HEY YOU" with a bark, does the decoy come alive with tons of prey movement, and you come alive as well with praise. Nothing worse for a puppy or young dog then a boring decoy.

>>>>>>>>>>>>

Also important: YOU Hoyt must remain unemotional as Stan is trying to figure this out. If you act concerned or too encouraging, he will keep depending on you for further cues. NO GOOD. YOU NEVER WANT A DOG ASKING QUESTIONS.

If in confusion Stan turns to you for help, just look straight ahead ignore him, and have the decoy make a subtle attentional getting sound each time Stan looks to you, a little light whip or clatter stick sound will do. 

Video tape this 

Be at peace,
Bryan


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

> threat display is nice to have before the dog actually has to attack


Its nice...... but honestly, the dogs that would scare me the most (if I wasnt wearing any protection equipment), is the dog that's straining at the end of the line snapping his teeth at me :lol:


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## Bryan Colletti (Feb 16, 2007)

Mike Schoonbrood said:


> Its nice...... but honestly, the dogs that would scare me the most (if I wasnt wearing any protection equipment), is the dog that's straining at the end of the line snapping his teeth at me :lol:




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vu9W-QdyNJ8

Mike, this is the dog you describe, he stares right through me {no barking} he just froths at the mouth like Pavlov waiting to extract my spline or something. As you can clearly see here too, I purposely give him multiple bite areas and he dont care at all, then when he outs, he keeps cheap shotting me in the nuts {which for you young decoy, where a cup!} He is not big, but he means it!

Be at peace Bryan


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## Hoyt Yang (Dec 26, 2007)

Thanks Bryan- I will try what you described. I really like the part where you mentioned that I need to let the dog 'figure it out.'


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## Justin Eimer (Oct 17, 2006)

Okay, now that your question to me was answered by Bryan, I will respond. I thought that we were talking about PPD. Barking for no reason is a waste of energy. Barking while in a tactical position will give your position away and thus throw tactical out the window. How tactical do you have to be Hoyt? I did not know that citizens lay in wait for their attackers in a tactical position (the sarcasm is not directed towards you). Your PPD will have to defend you or your family, or your home, business, or vehicle when you are not with him. A show of force is often better than actually using force. Most individuals will not attempt to proceed with bad intentions when challenged/met with the threat of canine force. In police work, when an out of control suspect is being apprehended after a pursuit or other high risk/high stress situation, do you want the suspect to hear the dog or not hear him? Often times that bark is the deciding factor of whether or not the suspect is going to capitulate with or without a struggle. If you want your dog to bark, it can be done through training. If you want a tactical SWAT type dog that keeps quiet, then don't change anything. You asked about PPD. Sometimes it's better to not have your dog engage anyone if it is not absolutely neccessary. Especially in a personal protection role (liability). Like I said earlier, the threat of a bite is often just as effective. That's why cops point guns, and yell in a firm and commanding manner and threaten to shoot in some instances. It is called violence of action. It is a psychological advantage over a threat/adversary. It is used by law enforcement and the military and not by mistake but by design. The same is true with the dog. I can understand where Mike Schoonbrood is coming from, but he is an experienced dog person/decoy. Not many people are and they can't read the dog, but a menacing bark transends in all languages. Just my humble opinion. I never said that you need to have the dog bark. Your dog is what he is. You may be able to alter his behavior through training to cater to what you want. I would be more than happy to give advice which ever way that you decide to go. I have read most of what Bryan has written in regards to teaching the dog to bark. I don't see any problem with his method. I think that most people train it very similarly. There are several little tricks that can be implemented, but none of them are secret or rocket science. Hope this helps. ~Justin


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

I agree with Justin. A PPD's main role IMO is to avoid the situation by acting as a deterrant. And a dog barking with a good show of teeth is more of a deterrant then a dog who is silent. The average person can't even tell that Muffin is being a jerk when he approaches a dog with tail straight up in the air, hackles up and a stiffness to his gait, they think he just wants to be friendly and play. But a dog barking like crazy they immediately think is aggressive, even when that dog actually does just want to play. 

I don't think barking is a requirement to being a PPD, ie it's possible for the dog to do the job, but I do think a PPD who won't bark is limited and there is greater liability in terms of possible court cases from a bite.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Not a PPD fan here but, IMHO, 99% of most people's needs can be fulfilled with a good threat display dog. 
With that 1% that truely need the dog, display isn't important, it's the dog's ability to do the job.
Dog barks/threats, owner shoots......if it gets that far! :wink:


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Hoyt,
We have a female Malinois that trains here and it has the same "problem." Sometimes it seems to get prey locked but it sounds like you have a nice one for sale! :wink:


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## Hoyt Yang (Dec 26, 2007)

Kadi, 

It's always nice to hear your opinion on things. I've actually gave alot of thought to what you mentioned regarding the preference of having Cali in a dark alley vs Ebo. Ebo was a much stronger dog. But he was so confident, that he didn't find things threatening enough for him to show aggression- thus he would not do as good of a job in scaring away the bad guy. It's almost as if he didn't want to scare the bad guy away, at the risk of losing the opportunity to fight. Cali, on the otherhand, would immediately show aggression at the first sign of someone 'suspicious.' 

As you've suggested, I'm trying to get Stan to at least bark for his prey-- and thus far, it's been a bit more of a challenge than I have originally thought. It's just that he is SO FOCUSED on biting, that he could care less about barking. All his energy is focused in pulling forward and hoping that I'd release him. Maybe we can meet in Riverside, so that I can show you Stan in person. On a sidenote, how did training go today?


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## Hoyt Yang (Dec 26, 2007)

Justin Eimer said:


> Okay, now that your question to me was answered by Bryan, I will respond. I thought that we were talking about PPD. Barking for no reason is a waste of energy. Barking while in a tactical position will give your position away and thus throw tactical out the window. How tactical do you have to be Hoyt? I did not know that citizens lay in wait for their attackers in a tactical position (the sarcasm is not directed towards you). Your PPD will have to defend you or your family, or your home, business, or vehicle when you are not with him. A show of force is often better than actually using force. Most individuals will not attempt to proceed with bad intentions when challenged/met with the threat of canine force. In police work, when an out of control suspect is being apprehended after a pursuit or other high risk/high stress situation, do you want the suspect to hear the dog or not hear him? Often times that bark is the deciding factor of whether or not the suspect is going to capitulate with or without a struggle. If you want your dog to bark, it can be done through training. If you want a tactical SWAT type dog that keeps quiet, then don't change anything. You asked about PPD. Sometimes it's better to not have your dog engage anyone if it is not absolutely neccessary. Especially in a personal protection role (liability). Like I said earlier, the threat of a bite is often just as effective. That's why cops point guns, and yell in a firm and commanding manner and threaten to shoot in some instances. It is called violence of action. It is a psychological advantage over a threat/adversary. It is used by law enforcement and the military and not by mistake but by design. The same is true with the dog. I can understand where Mike Schoonbrood is coming from, but he is an experienced dog person/decoy. Not many people are and they can't read the dog, but a menacing bark transends in all languages. Just my humble opinion. I never said that you need to have the dog bark. Your dog is what he is. You may be able to alter his behavior through training to cater to what you want. I would be more than happy to give advice which ever way that you decide to go. I have read most of what Bryan has written in regards to teaching the dog to bark. I don't see any problem with his method. I think that most people train it very similarly. There are several little tricks that can be implemented, but none of them are secret or rocket science. Hope this helps. ~Justin


Thanks for the post Justin, a PM was sent.


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## Chris Duhon (May 24, 2007)

Hoyt, You have excellent advise that have been given, so need to elaborate, however, I'd like to underline, the fact that your awesome Mal is a VERY YOUNG dog. Your putting alot of pressure on him at a young age. What I would suggest is now you know from what you described he is an extremely strong dog, back up and build even more confidence, by putting him in some pretty easy situations for a while. That will take the stress off of him and I think will give even more of a boost of confidence and maturity growth.

When we get awesome dogs like that we tend to throw the book at'em because well, they make it so easy for us to do O 

I had a puppy I bought at 10weeks old from Justin Eimer here on the board. By the time that puppy was 5mo old, he was at full obedience, doing long sends, call offs, long downs, sends on Mondioring and Belgian Ring type of stuff. By the time he was 8mo old he was doing the full belgian Ring routine complete with object guard, and also object guard with the muzzle on unsuited decoy. Justin Eimer can vouch on this, young boy was amazing He was the youngest dog to title ever in ASR (personal Protection program) and did it with an excellent rating his first time out at 10mo (was ready long before that had to wait for a trial). This was waaaaay to fast. I had to relieve alot of stress and start doing alot more confidence building, and basically backed up off him. I knew he could do it, so there was no more sense in burning him out or beating his confidence down. When they take everything you throw at them it's hard and you tend to want to just keep giving them more. DON'T slow down and make yourself remember he's a puppy even though he wants to think he's older than he is, LOL!

That boy who was starting to loose his confidence from the harsh training at such a young age, was bounced back and stronger than ever, and is now a Police Service dog in Hendersonville, North Carolina, doing an AWESOME job as a dual purpose for the last 2yrs. Slow down with him.


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## Hoyt Yang (Dec 26, 2007)

Thanks for the advice Chris. I am certainly planning to back up his training, and setting up more prey oriented bites. I can see that all the 'stress' of bitework done in a civil manner is making it no longer comfortable for him to go out on leisurely walks. He is constantly suspicious, and checks out anyone who may suddenly turn into the 'boogie man.' But the experience today was good, since he is learning that there are plenty of normal people out there, and towards the end of the 1 hour walk, he started to ignore joggers or people walking by.


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## Justin Eimer (Oct 17, 2006)

Chris~ 
Great advice advice my friend. Hard to believe that it has been that long. I have spoken to Hoyt off the board and have provided him with some additional information. I think that he will definitely take his time so as not to goof anything with what sounds like a really nice PPD prospect. I hope all is well at the PD and with Penny and the kids at home. Bud was an exceptional dog and you're right, sometimes we tend to push way to hard when they are so receptive. Have you spoken to his handler lately? ~Justin 




Chris Duhon said:


> Hoyt, You have excellent advise that have been given, so need to elaborate, however, I'd like to underline, the fact that your awesome Mal is a VERY YOUNG dog. Your putting alot of pressure on him at a young age. What I would suggest is now you know from what you described he is an extremely strong dog, back up and build even more confidence, by putting him in some pretty easy situations for a while. That will take the stress off of him and I think will give even more of a boost of confidence and maturity growth.
> 
> When we get awesome dogs like that we tend to throw the book at'em because well, they make it so easy for us to do O
> 
> ...


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