# Importance of bite development is the differ venues?



## Meng Xiong (Jan 21, 2009)

With a short background in Schutzhund, I know there is a lot of time developing a calm full hard bite.

How important is this in the other venues (ring, KNPV, pp, ppd)? and even if bite development to the degree of schutzhund is not required what about teaching a dog to bite hard all of the time regardless of full or shallow bite?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Meng Xiong said:


> With a short background in Schutzhund, I know there is a lot of time developing a calm full hard bite.
> 
> How important is this in the other venues (ring, KNPV, pp, ppd)? and even if bite development to the degree of schutzhund is not required what about teaching a dog to bite hard all of the time regardless of full or shallow bite?


I think everyone for the most part PREFERS that the dog bites as full as possible.

I also think you can surely have a FULL bite that is NOT "calm", not in the SCH sense anyhow...

for PP it does not really matter, IMO, if the dog bites a guy for real, he is not gonna be critiquing whether it was full mouth or 3/4 mouth or even 1/2 mouth.

In a couple sports at least, the decoy does not offer much while on the bite in the way of pressure, is pretty passive, and in those sports most want to see active fighting from the dog, and the dog to keep pushing his grip.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&NR=1&v=5I9vgOx9xFM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LoxMIcmoeVE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BXuGxNQUlIQ&feature=plcp


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## Meng Xiong (Jan 21, 2009)

For PP, sure no one is judging, but wouldn't you agree that theres merit in training a PP to bite full and hard anyway?

and of course theres the genetic component to biting, but even then, do you think that training can help shape how a dog bites?


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## Meng Xiong (Jan 21, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&NR=1&v=5I9vgOx9xFM
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LoxMIcmoeVE


Yup, I understand theres the active aggression component, but surely even these guys are developing the bite when the dog is at a young age by use of a tie out or someone holding the dog back, then once, the dog is biting to satisfactory, the dog would be allowed to be sent out on a long/short bite, right?

I can't say I know much of anything outside of Sch, but after watching the other video of the 6month old mal being sent out with what appeared to me to be shallow bites, I wasn't sure if that was just typical pp work.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Meng Xiong said:


> For PP, sure no one is judging, but wouldn't you agree that theres merit in training a PP to bite full and hard anyway?
> 
> and of course theres the genetic component to biting, but even then, do you think that training can help shape how a dog bites?


yes training can shape biting, yes I agree as full and hard as possible given the situation, and the dog.

You are now talking about full and hard, and less about calm..

Watch those videos, full grips...but calm grips?


also keep in mind that dogs grips can change under certain circumstances especially when you cross into the realm of biting for real as well.


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## Meng Xiong (Jan 21, 2009)

My initial post states what i've seen in Sch as "calm full hard" grips, but my initial question asks about general bite development and biting hard in other venues. 

I was taught that when setting the bite, regardless of calm or full, I should pull hard to help teach to the dog to grip or bite harder so that he dosn't lose the sleeve. 
I was wondering other folks train this way in other venues.


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## Brett Bowen (May 2, 2011)

I know we train like you say above with setting the grip. A counter is added later to help teach the dog to dig in if he doesn't get a full grip the first time. 

I've also seen a leather rag used build the dog up to the point where even if you pull with all you have they don't let go and the rag doesn't slip out of their mouth. Sure teaches the dog to clamp down hard or they loose it.

Oh I think a lot of it depends on preference. I like to see a dog a little more active on the bite rather than just clamped on and calm. That's just me.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Meng Xiong said:


> Yup, I understand theres the active aggression component, but surely even these guys are developing the bite when the dog is at a young age by use of a tie out or someone holding the dog back, then once, the dog is biting to satisfactory, the dog would be allowed to be sent out on a long/short bite, right?
> 
> I can't say I know much of anything outside of Sch, but after watching the other video of the 6month old mal being sent out with what appeared to me to be shallow bites, I wasn't sure if that was just typical pp work.


not typical in my mind, but not uncommon either in pp work. If it was me, I would be working on better gripping techniques personally with that dog, I didnt see it as too much too soon, just basically ignoring the grip work for the most part.

there are other considerations as well, consideration of what the dog is actually biting, have to compare a typical SCH type bite bar sleeve to the belgian style sleeves and suit work..and what behaviors the dog is to ideally exhibit.. A dog with a great gripping behavior in NVBK or KNPV might not be so great for SCH.




Also have to look at the types of countering preferred by different people. Most Sch people that I know want the dogs pulling on the sleeve. To get a really solid "calm" grip and then pull. Pulling will keep dogs energy on using his body more to counter or "work the helper" and not so much on his mouth/grip being used, it keeps the grip calmer.. 
working dogs against tieouts and applying heavy amounts of back pressure can for sure encourage dogs to try to pull the sleeve. The other sports seem to like the active use of the mouth more.

I dont think most of those guys in some of those other sports use tieouts much in training, unless dogs are tied out and watching stuff. most of what I see is dog is brought to the decoy for the most part, not the other way around..there is a use of leash pressure and collar pressure, and physical pressing, both in forms of backpressure and forward pressure. but FAR LESS backpressure than what you see in typical SCH type grip work. Strong full grips are rewarded by the decoy moving, wiggling, showing submission, feigning pain, and lots of praise and petting etc....there is little of trying to pull dogs off the grips from what I see.

disclaimer, just my opinions, not an expert in any type of sport work.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Meng Xiong said:


> For PP, sure no one is judging, but wouldn't you agree that theres merit in training a PP to bite full and hard anyway?
> 
> and of course theres the genetic component to biting, but even then, do you think that training can help shape how a dog bites?


For sure genetics has a component to any dogs biting, yes training will build a dogs bite and shapes how it does bite for sure. For example when I've helped my FR mentor at seminars so many of the seminar dogs even if a dog has great cardio, they always seem to gas early when they are biting. Just because they have fitness, the muscles that they have to use to clamp and hold a grip are always always under worked. They still may want to bite but you will see the grip start to falter and get chewy. Sometimes very quickly I may add. 

Hard is better than full .. <Oh crap I can't believe I just wrote that!> :lol: A dog can have a full bite but if it is just a sleeve sucker it sure isn't hard. I hate that. Many dogs get rewarded for doing just that and are lazy clampers. It just makes for a pretty picture on Facebook! LOL! 

In our French Ring group we do train for a hard pushing grip. There really isn't anything aesthetic about FR grips. We just want the dog to grab and close its mouth as fast and hard on whatever it can get. We still in training push the dogs to reach for the bone and feel it though. 

So we do a lot of bungee and back pressure while pumping the dog on the harness whilst building grips and the related entries. That in itself promotes the forceful pressure that we want to secure a fast moving and athletic decoy.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Meng Xiong said:


> My initial post states what i've seen in Sch as "calm full hard" grips, but my initial question asks about general bite development and biting hard in other venues.
> 
> I was taught that when setting the bite, regardless of calm or full, I should pull hard to help teach to the dog to grip or bite harder so that he dosn't lose the sleeve.
> I was wondering other folks train this way in other venues.


Pulling hard so that the dog won't lose the sleeve just reinforces that backward hump that doesn't promote a full grip in itself as the dog is then just trying to win the sleeve. 

In our FR group we have back pressure for sure, but the dog is never moving back when it gets rewarded. You pump the dog on the bite so it can push forward and then the handler reapplies the back pressure. It's also not super forceful super man pressure either. For example when we are doing bungee work. We use 3 different weight bungees that will have a back pressure of 20 through 60 lbs these weights are light enough and yet hard enough for 45lb Malinois to 90 lb GSDs. Depending on what we are working on.


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## Meng Xiong (Jan 21, 2009)

Lots of great replies!



Geoff Empey said:


> So we do a lot of bungee and back pressure while pumping the dog on the harness whilst building grips and the related entries. That in itself promotes the forceful pressure that we want to secure a fast moving and athletic decoy.


Geoff,

What exactly do you mean by "pumping" the dog? 

Also, i've read a couple of times where people mention 'training the dog to find the arm/leg in the suit.' 
How is that typically taught?


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## Bart Karmich (Jul 16, 2010)

Training methods vary, but the rules are explicit.

Schutzhund is the only venue that values a "calm" bite. In my mind it's a totally arbitrary value. In other words, calmness really has no virtue other than that's what the rules say. Probably the rule makers figured it suggests confidence in the dog, but that's a stupid assumption.

I understand Belgian ring to have the most strict criteria regarding grip and biting quality. The fullness of the grip is important, and calmness is not desireable. The dog must push, not pull. This grip style is sought after for KNPV and French ring even though there may not be points for it per se. Nobody in any venue outside Schutzhund wants a calm grip, and nobody wants the dog to pull away.

I don't believe the grip is judged as critically in French ring. By the rules, the speed of the bite is the only thing that matters, but an incomplete grip has a better chance of coming off.

The motivation for the bite is another thing.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Bart's post #13 is bang on I won't quote it but his information is correct. I whole heartedly agree with his post. 



Meng Xiong said:


> What exactly do you mean by "pumping" the dog?
> 
> Also, i've read a couple of times where people mention 'training the dog to find the arm/leg in the suit.'
> How is that typically taught?





> 'training the dog to find the arm/leg in the suit.'


It really is first by genetics and how the dog is put together in it's head. We have a female Mal in our group that actually cries, whines and makes all sort of noise if she doesn't have that. She will push and push and when she feels that bone or she can't get anymore suit in her mouth the noise stops. It is pretty amazing to see really. 

We use 'the pump' to get the dog to push and this is where the training decoy marks the correct behaviour with encouragement and prey movement. The dog is on a harness and when the dog is on the bite the back pressure is varied. You may have seen videos of FR dogs and the handlers are always saying "tak tak tak" that is when the harness back pressure is less which allows the dog to 'push' into the decoy and equipment. Once the dog readjusts and pushes for a fuller grip the back pressure is heavier and the training decoy is more animated with his voice and prey movement as the reward for the dog pushing forward. 

Like this .. 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lyUGf9Lr2pQ&feature=relmfu


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Often times the full grip is genetic. It can be taught, but a dog under stress can easily revert to what is natural for the dog. 
The genetic full grip can also be efd up with improper training.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Meng Xiong said:


> Also, i've read a couple of times where people mention 'training the dog to find the arm/leg in the suit.'
> How is that typically taught?


this is good start 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n--9JMVMB-w&feature=plcp

or you can do it yourself, from the comfort of your own chair! 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UNMe9lqabGA


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## andreas broqvist (Jun 2, 2009)

We use à harnes to, but only with à lesh/cord that ither the owner ore à helper holds. The dog get to work forward "chasing" the decoy à bit. When he lunges we stop the dog just befor he can get the bite, this way we bild frustration. Mabe 3 misses and then he gets the decoy. 
This is mostly used in the begining. After that I feel you can build more frustration with just OB. Have the dog sitt by you Side and the decoy makes sort bursts, escapes and sutch without the dog geting him. 3-4 escapes without letning the dog go usaly makes him absolutly explode on the 5


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

i have said before and still believe that developing a "sport grip" is counter to the genetics of a basic, aggressive, genetic canine bite.
in sport, or protection, you do NOT want a dog to lose grip and come off the decoy or suspect, so trying to encourage them to dig in deeper, or "push" as it is usually referred to, is the training goal. actually coming off is no biggy as long as the dog gets right back on the target, except if you are working for points. if the bite is deep to begin with, more jaw pressure and more teeth are securing the item, but they have to bite b4 they can "grip"

with that said, a canine who aggressively grabs REAL prey wants to get as big a piece of the pie as they can and then rip it off the prey.....they don't "eat in place" and they don't deal a death bite by clamping on til the prey is dead... why is of course why they then PULL not push ! in fact whether they prey is dead or not is secondary, which is easy to see if you watch hyenas and wild dogs feasting on a live animal

basic canine biting "genetics" as i see it but no one ever agrees with me


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

interesting subject to me ...
one thing i don't get is how to get a deeper grip by pumping or making the dog "push"... it would seem to me a dog would have to regrip to get any deeper, which i don't think you want to see, correct ?

or maybe what i'm is, isn't it the initial bite that will determine how deep the grip is going to be ??


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

rick smith said:


> i have said before and still believe that developing a "sport grip" is counter to the genetics of a basic, aggressive, genetic canine bite.
> in sport, or protection, you do NOT want a dog to lose grip and come off the decoy or suspect, so trying to encourage them to dig in deeper, or "push" as it is usually referred to, is the training goal. actually coming off is no biggy as long as the dog gets right back on the target, except if you are working for points. if the bite is deep to begin with, more jaw pressure and more teeth are securing the item, but they have to bite b4 they can "grip"
> 
> with that said, a canine who aggressively grabs REAL prey wants to get as big a piece of the pie as they can and then rip it off the prey.....they don't "eat in place" and they don't deal a death bite by clamping on til the prey is dead... why is of course why they then PULL not push ! in fact whether they prey is dead or not is secondary, which is easy to see if you watch hyenas and wild dogs feasting on a live animal
> ...


Rick. here you go again with the wild animals. Domestic dogs are not wild animals. Many are BRED to FIGHT and/or KILL, and need no training. They are not like wild dogs, they are more like big cats in that regard.

I have seen dogs deliver death bites to animals, even animals larger than themselves...without training. for some dogs it is instinct to go for head or neck, for others it is a learning process, how to kill effectively.

And no I am not saying that most dogs want to deliver a death bite on a person, although some do, and some have done it. I know, we bred one that did.

That dog was not "trained" to bite, or kill.

It was allowed to run in a farm setting and became the leader of a small "pack"... started out killing chickens, rabbits, and squirrels, then moved up to goats and sheep, which it killed by brutal neck bite, before being moved into highrise apartment building, and allowed to kill a person.

I have worked MANY adult dogs that have a full genetic aggressive grip that is pushing, that did not try to tear anything off, and did not have any bite training. They bit aggressively and push and shake for control of and to injure whatever they are biting, not to try to tear a chunk off and eat it. Some of those I imagine, if I offered them my neck, they would garb that to, and shake the piss out of it.

There are plenty of dogs that have killed smaller boars, and other game with "death bites"... ever seen a terrier hunt?

Ever seen 6 week old puppies that have no training, bite full and NOT pull? I have.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

Joby,

first of all i am not the one who starts the "genetics" threads of what is genetic and what isn't.
but when it gets stated as "genetic" i may differ, and when i do i try and back it up with the normal canine evolution of the behavior being discussed. nothing wrong with that is there ?

you then bring up the exceptions to the norm. nothing wrong with that either !
it may be true that you can create new genetics over 15-20 generations of very careful selected breeding, but i think the jury is still out on whether it can be confirmed as a new part of the dna structure

i accept and believe that there are exceptions, and believe all the personal experience you have had are also true, but why would the exceptions you bring up than prove that the evolution of the behavior as i explain it is wrong ? i don't get that part of your logic.

in terms of the "death blows" to chickens and from terriers etc. IF the prey is much smaller in proportion to the canine, of COURSE the killing method is different. on here, we are usually talking about dogs gripping (human) prey proportionally much larger than themselves and that is where the bite/grip genetics comes into play ... pushing or pulling, etc

re: "Ever seen 6 week old puppies that have no training, bite full and NOT pull?"
yes and no.
yes i have seen VERY young pups who will have very full bites and bite/grip with full jaw pressure and clamp down and not let go as if their life depended on it. but no, never seen them push thru the object once pressure was relieved. they always pulled it back to them. any pushing appeared to be the result of some pressure applied by the holder of the object, as in a rag or a rag on a FP, which is how i usually see pups played with and worked. showing this "pushing" grip against a stationary object (anchored, padded cat scratching post, etc) would be even more impressive !
so, YES, i would LOVE to see any video to the contrary, because that would truly be an indicator of a deep pushing "GENETIC" grip.
...just make sure it is a YOUNG pup and it is not showing any trained behavior here


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

rick smith said:


> interesting subject to me ...
> one thing i don't get is how to get a deeper grip by pumping or making the dog "push"... it would seem to me a dog would have to regrip to get any deeper, which i don't think you want to see, correct ?
> 
> or maybe what i'm is, isn't it the initial bite that will determine how deep the grip is going to be ??


some dogs counter to get as deep a grip as possible then pull...pulling first, dog cannot get deeper grip. Some dogs counter, get the deep grip, then push and try to get more, with MANY of them this is natural style to them, not everyone MAKES the dog push, they just make it more effective.

I think you are assuming SCH bite is only "sport" bite here. In SCH, deep intial strong bite is almost imperitive, there is little opportunity for the dog to adjust its grip, due to helper running and dragging, or driving the dog. Dogs usually pull to set the grip in as deep as they get. Shifting grip is not as good as calm stationary grip. That is the only sport where an active grip is not desired by most people.

In most cases a dog will hold whatever bite he has, until he has a chance to counter and get a much better bite in general, even in SCH sometimes the dog gets a chance, sometimes they dont. In ring, they hold on to what they have, and take more if they can. In KNPV and NVBK same thing, except dog has easier opportunity to do so. IN those sports there is also little to no pressure, or fight given to the dog after he bites, the dog is expected to bring the fight, by actively working his bite. If it was only about the intial bite, what would the dog do then? just pull on the suit? some dogs are not happy at all just biting the suit.

Most all people dont not want a dog that just holds what he has, if he can get more, I think, and in my opinion, most DOGS do not want to do this either, at least strong dogs with good biting behaviors. There are also the motivations of the dog to consider, what he wants out of it...When you get into some of the suitwork, it is not about biting the suit, it is about biting the bones of the decoy for lack of a better term (thanks Geoff), filling there entire mouth, and trying for more. And some suits have alot of give, or material which is some cases prevents the great initial strike.

It is great for the dog and the person if the dog gets that intitial strike to stop at the back of his jawbones, but if that doesnt happen some dogs will certainly try to get it to that point. 

One thing to also consider is a dog that is biting with the back of his mouth is usually biting much harder, the canines are for holding, the molars are for crushing, the front mouth is for tearing (as to your other thread) When dogs crush sleeves and/or bruise bones or cause muscle damage to decoys, it is not with the canines usually, although that certainly can happen as well.

here is pic of sleeve bite after my dog is happy. The pressure is not on the canines..









All I can say is that my dog has done this without much encouragement at all, in fact attempting to discourage it really makes her want it more.

she has from day one tried to fill her mouth, and more than a few times has bled from the very back of her mouth behind where the molars end , from rubbing it raw on the equipment.

I could show you all kinds of vids to illustrate it from the web, but I can just show you my dog. not great quality vid, but plainly shows what I am talking about here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQafyCFfSJk

might as well post the other vids too, what the hell, not the greatest dog on the planet, but I am happy with how she bites for sure.

this is very early in her suit biting career.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4dEcIif5q8E
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dpwAdTR7o6w

First time on leg(s)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=caxbFC3H6ls

and the goofiest video of all...it is a game the dog likes to play, this was when she was about 18 months, I did this sometimes instead of playing "tug".. looks pretty goofy I know, and is more about the dog fighting against me, than the grip, but I still challenge anyone to try this with a dog thats like to pull, or a dog that does not want shit stuffed as far back in their mouth as it can go.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SW2AIXq89IQ&feature=plcp


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

rick smith said:


> Joby,
> 
> first of all i am not the one who starts the "genetics" threads of what is genetic and what isn't.
> but when it gets stated as "genetic" i may differ, and when i do i try and back it up with the normal canine evolution of the behavior being discussed. nothing wrong with that is there ?
> ...


I think you are looking at the term "pushing" different than what most people view it as, in regards to talking about grip. it is not about pushing its body forward, or pushing the object forward, it is about pushing its own mouth forward until it is full as opposed to biting and pulling on something, it does not have to push something with much force, just push enough to fill its mouth, and NOT pull.. that may be were the disconnect is.

as far as your other portion I was also talking about large game, not just chickens. You are the one that brought up wild dogs and hyenas biting animals, which I agree has little to do with bitework. In that respect bitework itself is not natural and cannot be compared to anything that wild canids would do...so you are right, BREEDING and TRAINING dogs to bite humans, goes against nature. 

The reason I bring it up, is that there is NO comparsion to be made, the dogs we are talking about are not just like every other dog that humans domesticated or other wild canid out there, it IS in the DNA..they are selectively bred to do certain things. 

And also. The type of dogs that many people have that do this stuff, ARE THE EXCEPTIONS, if one is looking at the dog population as a whole.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

rick smith said:


> interesting subject to me ...
> one thing i don't get is how to get a deeper grip by pumping or making the dog "push"... it would seem to me a dog would have to regrip to get any deeper, which i don't think you want to see, correct ?
> 
> or maybe what i'm is, isn't it the initial bite that will determine how deep the grip is going to be ??


In the sport I choose to train and compete in French Ring the decoy in trial never just gives the bite and is always moving. So the dog may or may not get a full bite on the initial entry. The gets what it gets and clamps down hard. It is correct to have the dog adjust it's grip fuller and deeper but not change it's grip. 

In my training group we train for full bite always. So 'The Pump' for the dogs always reinforces for them to move into the decoy if there is no back pressure. 

For example: In trial, maybe the dog is only holding on by 2 canines and the decoy spins the dog and the dog never gets to readjust, though when the dog gets put down and the decoy changes the pressure tactic the dog can then push further into the decoy as there is no tension.



Joby Becker said:


> I think you are looking at the term "pushing" different than what most people view it as, in regards to talking about grip. it is not about pushing its body forward, or pushing the object forward, it is about pushing its own mouth forward until it is full as opposed to biting and pulling on something, it does not have to push something with much force, just push enough to fill its mouth, and NOT pull.. that may be were the disconnect is.


Yeah it is about the dog not moving back or slipping on the grip just that forward momentum to fill the mouth. It's all measured in mm or fractions of an inch really. It sure isn't as exaggerated as many think.


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## Bart Karmich (Jul 16, 2010)

rick smith said:


> basic canine biting "genetics" as i see it but no one ever agrees with me


 
You are probably right and that may be why the pushing grips appear to be a recessive trait that is easily lost if it is not very rigorously selected for.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

wrong link disregard


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## Mario Fernandez (Jun 21, 2008)

Interesting tread. Any of you notice while on the bite/grip the way the dog breaths.Weather they breath through their nose or their mouth. Some dogs natural can not maintain a full grip as they are mouth breathers.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Mario Fernandez said:


> Interesting tread. Any of you notice while on the bite/grip the way the dog breaths.Weather they breath through their nose or their mouth. Some dogs natural can not maintain a full grip as they are mouth breathers.


I did notice this right away in my dog, she was a mouthbreather for a bit.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

I think that the idea that IPO dogs are not taught to push is not very accurate. Many are pushers. But there is no way for the dog to push in a trial. 

Personally I do IPO and don't have a preference either way; push or pull. Both have advantages and disadvantages. I let the dog do what it does and use my skills as a helper to make the dog the best pusher or puller possible. IME, a dog that is a natural pusher and encouraged to be the best pusher he can be will be a better dog than a pusher that you try to turn into a puller, or the other way around. 

Ideally I want the dog to oppose. Whatever the helper does they try to do the opposite.


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