# Overloading in drive



## Jenny Thorp (Nov 8, 2008)

Looks like I've got one of those Dutchies that some of you have mentioned in the forum discussions.
Overloads in drive, becomes hectic and can not think. 
Corrections send him higher and have resulted in redirected aggression towards the handler ( he found out he's not the only one with a fight drive :-\" )
He is 1yr old. Training for SchH.

This has primarily been an issue in protection work. We've backed off on bitework and are working on control around the equipment/decoy etc. A dominant dog collar has helped him become functional. 
Tracking & OB have been enthusiastic but ok.
However, recently I'm seeing the starting signs of him building in drive during OB work at home. 
With as quickly as he built to overload in protection I'm concerned he's heading that way and would like to prevent that from happening if it's possable.

I'll be talking to the training group tomorrow to see what their thoughts are on correcting/controlling this issue before it gets out of hand but would welcome ideas/thoughts/discussion from you guys.

Thanks.


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

If you're teaching obedience with a tug reward, switch to something less stimulating, like food or a less attractive toy.


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## Stephanie Perrier (Feb 7, 2008)

Does he have an outlet? By this I mean does he know (or have you tried to teach him) how to contain, explode, contain, explode? With some dogs it's like trying to cover (correct) a boiling pot, eventually it will blow. The key is to provide a way to let some of that steam out. It may be contrary to a LOT of "methods", but with some dogs it really does work. For example, allowing them to bark at the handler upon release, or doing heel work with a high value toy on the ground. The dog sees it put down, so is building. Handler and dog heel AWAY from the toy, and at first after just a couple steps of nice (depending on your definition of nice), the dog is sent to get the toy and "kill it", be it tugging with it, or running around (dog on leash) shaking it, etc. They are then to out it on the ground (or to hand if you prefer) and the excercise is repeated. Obviously there are a few prerequisits: the dog must have some kind of out (or you will just build the drive and fight higher by "arguing" over the toy), some concept of heeling, and so on.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Stephanie Perrier said:


> Does he have an outlet? By this I mean does he know (or have you tried to teach him) how to contain, explode, contain, explode? With some dogs it's like trying to cover (correct) a boiling pot, eventually it will blow. The key is to provide a way to let some of that steam out. It may be contrary to a LOT of "methods", but with some dogs it really does work. For example, allowing them to bark at the handler upon release, or doing heel work with a high value toy on the ground. The dog sees it put down, so is building. Handler and dog heel AWAY from the toy, and at first after just a couple steps of nice (depending on your definition of nice), the dog is sent to get the toy and "kill it", be it tugging with it, or running around (dog on leash) shaking it, etc. They are then to out it on the ground (or to hand if you prefer) and the excercise is repeated. Obviously there are a few prerequisits: the dog must have some kind of out (or you will just build the drive and fight higher by "arguing" over the toy), some concept of heeling, and so on.


I put the toy on the ground a lot..and then FREE the dog to get to the toy after a good response..that is for OB though....


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Jenny Thorp said:


> Looks like I've got one of those Dutchies that some of you have mentioned in the forum discussions.
> Overloads in drive, becomes hectic and can not think.
> Corrections send him higher and have resulted in redirected aggression towards the handler ( he found out he's not the only one with a fight drive :-\" )
> He is 1yr old. Training for SchH.
> ...


E collar worked wonders for me, prong just creates more conflict (in the bite work that is ) prong works great for OB for me..


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

An e collar to prevent overload? Then you start developing quirky behaviors because you're 'not letting the steam out'.


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## Jonathan Katz (Jan 11, 2010)

Jenny Thorp said:


> Looks like I've got one of those Dutchies that some of you have mentioned in the forum discussions.
> Overloads in drive, becomes hectic and can not think.
> Corrections send him higher and have resulted in redirected aggression towards the handler ( he found out he's not the only one with a fight drive :-\" )
> He is 1yr old. Training for SchH.
> ...


I have a few question to understand the dog better:

Is he enjoying the fight? Or is this 100% displaced aggression?

When you fight back is it only till the point that he stop or is it also used to teach him a lesson?

Have you taught him to focus?

Do you own his eyes?

Does he get aroused when when you take out his prong collar? Not sexually, but mentally?

Is he trained with markers?

When given a toy, will he calm down with it or does he over load?

How is he on the bite?

Is he e-collar trained?


Sorry for the 20 question, I just need more info without seeing the dog.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Daryl Ehret said:


> An e collar to prevent overload? Then you start developing quirky behaviors because you're 'not letting the steam out'.


the steam gets let out when the dog complies...to cap and reward.. ...without the conflict on the corrective collar attached to the leash, less conflict with the handler..works the best for me and my dog...in bite work anyhow...

what are your ideas? maybe we can all learn something here...


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

My male Mal doesn't get overloaded in bitework (yet?), but he does in herding. He gets so crazy excited for the sheep, he will just not think and will not learn, even under heavy compulsion. While I am currently focusing more on my Rottweiler for herding at the moment because her working life isn't going to be much longer as she's nearly 11, but what worked best is working the negative punishment aspect of operant conditioning. Simply taking out the emotion and the heavy compulsion and removing him from the work and either sitting in the crate or elsewhere until the attitude is better and by giving this its own cue ("game over" is what we use). This is difficult in a large training group as it takes some time and your TD and decoy have to be on board. But for my dog, it was less confrontational and more effective since unless your dog is able to actually engage the brain cells, they're probably not going to learn. May or may not work for your guy, but it was less frustrating for me and less stressful for him.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Over loads in drive. Is this possible ? Maybe you are looking at frustration, and an inability to deal with it.


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## Jenny Thorp (Nov 8, 2008)

Hi Jonathan,
I don't mind a bunch of questions. Hopefully the answers will be helpful to all trying to give me some feedback. I've answered in bold below each of your questions 



Jonathan Katz said:


> I have a few question to understand the dog better:
> 
> Is he enjoying the fight? Or is this 100% displaced aggression?
> *He likes to fight but in this situation I feel it's more of a frustration reaction. Displaced aggression ? maybe.*
> ...


*That's ok. He's also VERY vocal when 'loaded' if that has any influence on potential helpful answers. High pitched barking.*
*Also appears more focussed on the decoy than the equipment. Starting to out the sleeve on his own after a brief run and fire up on the decoy regardless of what the decoy is doing.*

Thankyou all for the assorted discussion & input.


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

Joby Becker said:


> the steam gets let out when the dog complies...to cap and reward.. ...without the conflict on the corrective collar attached to the leash, less conflict with the handler..works the best for me and my dog...in bite work anyhow...
> 
> what are your ideas? maybe we can all learn something here...


I'm not sure. Easier to do than explain. It sounds like a situation where I would change the intent of the excercises for a while, by rewarding for _focus_ and _self restraint_. I'd reward at very short intervals to begin with, for eye contact and 'wait', gradually increasing the time increment for the reward, verbally marking for feedback in that duration of time. The reward for these is a catch-item, not a tug, and the dog needs to be able to eventually read the most subtle and briefest flickers of body language that you exhibit, because the catching of the reward itself gets more difficult (faster, tougher angles/elevation). When the dog's paying the utmost attention it can and is poised to react, it doesn't have the luxury of swirling around in an overexcited or frustrated mind. This is all for the sake of developing a set of behaviors that make the more complex obedience excercises easier to train.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Daryl Ehret said:


> I'm not sure. Easier to do than explain. It sounds like a situation where I would change the intent of the excercises for a while, by rewarding for _focus_ and _self restraint_. I'd reward at very short intervals to begin with, for eye contact and 'wait', gradually increasing the time increment for the reward, verbally marking for feedback in that duration of time. The reward for these is a catch-item, not a tug, and the dog needs to be able to eventually read the most subtle and briefest flickers of body language that you exhibit, because the catching of the reward itself gets more difficult (faster, tougher angles/elevation). When the dog's paying the utmost attention it can and is poised to react, it doesn't have the luxury of swirling around in an overexcited or frustrated mind. This is all for the sake of developing a set of behaviors that make the more complex obedience excercises easier to train.


Daryl...great explanation...I think this is on the right track, might do the trick especially avoiding the tugging...for a bit...for OB stuff with this type of dog, will keep confict down..my dog is simliar to what is described here....i do use an ecollar as well but train this way for ob, for her it appears the problems occur during corrections, which is why I suggested possible e collar use, which should bring handler conflict way down...


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## Stephanie Perrier (Feb 7, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> I put the toy on the ground a lot..and then FREE the dog to get to the toy after a good response..that is for OB though....


And does he get as high in OB? And do you get the strong, good, happy, focused, intense but contained response right away?
If yes, then transfer the idea to protection. Sleeve is on the ground. Helper is passive, even back to the dog if need be. Neither sleeve nor helper become animated until he is calm and focused (be it on you or them, but he is "contained". When he is contained, the marker is given, helper and sleeve become animated. Do your work, out, repeat. Everything jacks up, then calms, then jacks, then calms. You may even want to back step to a tug for this work at first, to provide a "transition" that is a bit less loaded. Then work on the sleeve. Put a cue to the containment if you want (watch, easy, whatever) and a cue to the loading (your marker word kinda becomes that really).


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Stephanie Perrier said:


> And does he get as high in OB? And do you get the strong, good, happy, focused, intense but contained response right away?
> If yes, then transfer the idea to protection. Sleeve is on the ground. Helper is passive, even back to the dog if need be. Neither sleeve nor helper become animated until he is calm and focused (be it on you or them, but he is "contained". When he is contained, the marker is given, helper and sleeve become animated. Do your work, out, repeat. Everything jacks up, then calms, then jacks, then calms. You may even want to back step to a tug for this work at first, to provide a "transition" that is a bit less loaded. Then work on the sleeve. Put a cue to the containment if you want (watch, easy, whatever) and a cue to the loading (your marker word kinda becomes that really).


yes it works great for the OB...

I wont be doing bite-work for a few months...(for other reasons)... i am going to work on OB, and tracking exclusively, I am hoping to be able to do this more with the bitework,after a few months of focus work. I am pretty sure it's not gonna be 123 easy lol...and will still use the e collar some I am sure. I should work out fine..in fact it HAS to work LOL...anyway I slice it I see corrections being used in conjunction with the other stuff...unless I just drag her off the field with no bites. 
I don't think my decoy is going to work the dog with just a tug :evil: ever though...for this dog it is not all about the tug,sleeve etc. it would not be safe to just use a tug imho, but I'll run it by him  the dog will attack passive guy with back turned, with no equipment. 
the pass auf is a contained (to position) but very active alert. LEAVE IT is more used for total containment, and I definitely do not own her eyes, on the bite work field..a few months of good focus and OB work and other NON bitework, should do the situation some good...


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

Joby Becker said:


> Daryl...great explanation...I think this is on the right track, might do the trick especially avoiding the tugging...for a bit...for OB stuff with this type of dog, will keep confict down..my dog is simliar to what is described here....i do use an ecollar as well but train this way for ob, for her it appears the problems occur during corrections, which is why I suggested possible e collar use, which should bring handler conflict way down...


I guess I get "handler conflict" with Ozzy. He's two yrs. old, and only just recently starting to pay good attention and develop control of his excitement. Few days ago, I had to knee him in the face for coming up at me for the toy, and his whole inner mouth instantly turned bright red with all the blood. But after that, he sat waiting and looking with a big happy smile, though I had to put him up so he could heal. I don't understand e collar use very well, I've never used one. Not sure I would, if my intent was to clear the dog's thoughts, and direct their awareness to their surroundings instead of internally.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Daryl Ehret said:


> I guess I get "handler conflict" with Ozzy. He's two yrs. old, and only just recently starting to pay good attention and develop control of his excitement. Few days ago, I had to knee him in the face for coming up at me for the toy, and his whole inner mouth instantly turned bright red with all the blood. But after that, he sat waiting and looking with a big happy smile, though I had to put him up so he could heal. I don't understand e collar use very well, I've never used one. Not sure I would, if my intent was to clear the dog's thoughts, and direct their awareness to their surroundings instead of internally.


I have used the knees, and a few punches as well..occasionally followed by a few choke outs when the physical means prompted a RESPONSE from the dog. not always a big happy smile after those, but most likely a totally different type of dog...
I do not use the collar on any real high power most of the time it is very low. and not all the time...


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## Diana Abel (Aug 31, 2009)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Over loads in drive. Is this possible ? Maybe you are looking at frustration, and an inability to deal with it.


I was thinking the same thing Jeff. (About the bite work part) I had something similar happen with my youngster. He would come back on me & nail me immediately after I outed him. Nothing but frustration on his part. Before it got to be a 'Problem", the decoy made sure he redirected him the second he outed. He will still try & sneak in a grab every once in awhile, but he seems to be growing out of it.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Stephanie Perrier said:


> , easy, whatever) and a cue to the loading (your marker word kinda becomes that really).


 
Stephanie, I'm assuming you mean the implicit release that happens with the marker but could you expand on how the marker becomes the cue to the loading.

Terrasita


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## Stephanie Perrier (Feb 7, 2008)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Stephanie, I'm assuming you mean the implicit release that happens with the marker but could you expand on how the marker becomes the cue to the loading.
> 
> Terrasita


I suppose cue would be the wrong word. Essentially the marker is the dogs permission to load. Many have a "cue" word to load the dog, not sure this dog needs one. Simple permission and the dog will load himself  Either way though, the word/release/cue becomes the signal the dog can load. Theoretically you could take it one step further, give your marker then a cue, but chances are before you even get the first syllable out of the cue the dog will be loading anyhow. With a dog who isn't one to self load that quickly, you could use your marker, then your cue to load, though really in the situation, the dog will learn fast that the marker/release predicts the cue and the dog would load automatically.

" I don't think my decoy is going to work the dog with just a tug :evil: ever though...for this dog it is not all about the tug,sleeve etc. it would not be safe to just use a tug imho, but I'll run it by him "

Ha this is obviously done with safety precautions, but really the helper doesn't have to have the dog anywhere near his body when teaching this. I should clarify I am talking a large tug here, similar to what some use to initially teach leg bites in ring, not a little tug you would use in OB  Often 2 to 3 feet long, the helper can be a good bit back from the dogs teeth.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Stephanie Perrier said:


> I suppose cue would be the wrong word. Essentially the marker is the dogs permission to load. Many have a "cue" word to load the dog, not sure this dog needs one. Simple permission and the dog will load himself  Either way though, the word/release/cue becomes the signal the dog can load. Theoretically you could take it one step further, give your marker then a cue, but chances are before you even get the first syllable out of the cue the dog will be loading anyhow. With a dog who isn't one to self load that quickly, you could use your marker, then your cue to load, though really in the situation, the dog will learn fast that the marker/release predicts the cue and the dog would load automatically.
> 
> 
> Okay, this is essentially what I've been doing with the bouv. I think in terms of the marker as the release. But its happening as you say. The marker really becomes the release from the controlled state of mind and with that release, there's a momentary explode. Ya gotta load before you explode. Next comes a cue of some sort from me. What I've been able to get is longer "controlled states" assuming I'm watching what I'm doing and don't work it too long.
> ...


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Stephanie Perrier said:


> Often 2 to 3 feet long, the helper can be a good bit back from the dogs teeth.


online no problems...off leash i doubt it will happen...


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## Stephanie Perrier (Feb 7, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> online no problems...off leash i doubt it will happen...


You don't want him off line anyhow at first, can't really teach containement to an easily over stimulated dog off line  And really with a dog that does go that high, as you said, tug off leash isn't really safe (heck, initially even sleeve work off leash isn't safe LOL)


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## Jonathan Katz (Jan 11, 2010)

Jenny Thorp said:


> Hi Jonathan,
> I don't mind a bunch of questions. Hopefully the answers will be helpful to all trying to give me some feedback. I've answered in bold below each of your questions
> 
> 
> ...


I personally hate having to fight with dogs. If I have to fight I'm not having fun training. At the first sign of a dog wanting to fight with me I remove his air. The second he gives up he gets his air back.

I think a prong collar can be this dogs worse enemy, because it sounds like it only builds drive as apposed to killing drive.

An ecollar can be this dogs best friend. Teaching him to think in drive instead of loosing his marbles in overdrive.

Find some one you respect that trains with an ecollar. Ask them to explain their method they use with their dogs and why. Then watch them do ecollar training with a dog. From there, have them coach you with your dog.

There is no need for him to wear the dead collar for any period of time. Put it on him and train him. IMO The people that try so hard not to ecollar condition their dogs are the ones that end up having collar wise dogs. Just teach him to turn off low stim by responding to commands. No need for force at all!

Staying away from bite work until you can change the 95% focus to 100% in what ever position he is in. (heel,front,stay....)

Try letting him play with interactive toys, you can even feed him at of them. All just to work out problem solving equations.

Once you have 100% focus, start doing bites for obedience and slipping him the sleeve for release. I would use a lot of cradling to calm him and help him release mental energy through his oral fixation. Cradle him like when you pick up a puppy and hold them close to the body until they stop squirming and then praise the calmness.

Once again it is very hard to help with a dog I have not seen, but I hope I could be of help. You have got some good advice from people here. Try to see what works and where does the problem come from.


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## Mike Lauer (Jul 26, 2009)

that sounds like all mali puppies i have seen
patients and age, he is only 1 you said
is he your first mali?
i am on my first mali and i have to learn to train all over again since i came from a high threshold GSD
they are like night and day

i cant tell you if the patient approach will work, give me another year then maybe


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## Steven Stroupes (Apr 3, 2009)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Over loads in drive. Is this possible ? Maybe you are looking at frustration and an inability to deal with it.


I was thinking the exact same thing.


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