# Black Shepherds



## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Anyone have a link to QUALITY working GSDs that are black? I might go back to the GSD to see what I'm missing. Hard is fine, female is great, black and not bi-color, AKC, no show lines please.


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

vom haus ming---- if you want to go the import route. To be honest I have only seen one of his pups a INOX son, nice. I have heard alot of good things through the grapevine also


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## James Lechernich (Oct 20, 2009)

Gardefense, maybe? I've been looking at some different kennels and I think most of them are titled dogs/PSDs and mostly black.


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## Anne Pridemore (Mar 20, 2010)

Boorman Haus - female pups currently available.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

will fernandez said:


> vom haus ming---- if you want to go the import route. To be honest I have only seen one of his pups a INOX son, nice. I have heard alot of good things through the grapevine also


Here's Inox:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h-LiWzg-7NU


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

Buy this one, _pleeeease_. http://www.ehretgsd.com/pitch.html


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## Molly Graf (Jul 20, 2006)

I have two litters coming that will/should produce black puppies - as always, all parents are Schh titled AND worked regularly (for anyone to see for themselves), hip rated, conformation rated and most are breed surveyed. 

You can see on my website, the sire is V-Bandit v Wolfsheim Schh3,FH,KKl-1,a-normal HD/ED. The two females bred to him are SG-Upsy v Salztal-Hohe Schh2,KKl-2,a-normal (black) and Sequoiah v Gebirghaus Schh1.

Planned litter of Lea v Cap Arkona Schh2,KKl-1 bred to H'Doc v Rex Luypus Schh3,FH2,KKl-1 will also produce black puppies.

I also stand behind my puppies 100% - if one purchased for working doesn't work out for any reason (yes, any) I will refund or replace.

molly


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

Howard Gaines III said:


> black and not bi-color.


you're going to look at buying a GSD based on COLOR?? [-X ](*,)

please don't--if you're stuck on black, stay with your Bouvs.


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

I wouldn't refund _a damned thing_, you'd be stuck with her.  Or, maybe I could throw in her sister, too.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Daryl Ehret said:


> I wouldn't refund _a damned thing_, you'd be stuck with her.  Or, maybe I could throw in her sister, too.


Well now, that sounds like a fun Easter gift Daryl.


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

A gift to myself, really.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Daryl Ehret said:


> A gift to myself, really.


Daryl,

I guess I missed the back story. Pitch doesn't look like a bad young female? Why all the disrespect? ;-)


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

http://www.mysticalshepherds04.com/upcominglitters.htm


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Daryl,
> 
> I guess I missed the back story. Pitch doesn't look like a bad young female? Why all the disrespect? ;-)


Oh, she's a real asset to the working class of dog in several respects, but for one intolerable character flaw: some seriously incureable dog aggression. I've probably never so closely considered using the ecollar before, but have serious doubts it would be effective anyway. Other hard corrections haven't phased them. Anyway, not my ideal type of temperament, though an incident of early learning/experience may have worsened the situation. Pitch has probably endured the most pain and forgives the least.


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## John Piurkowsky (Feb 19, 2010)

I'll gladly second the recommendation to check out Molly Graf's Vom Eichenluft dogs. I've got several excellent dogs from her. I could also recommend Jenny White's http://www.blitzstrahlshepherds.com/ she produces some great dogs and she trains with Charleston Working Dog Club. That link is http://www.charlestonworkingdogclub.com/Home_Page.php


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

Guess you should've posted in the classifieds section, Howard.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Black is the most recessive of all the GSD colors. If someone is breeding just for that, it's no better then breeding for white GSDs. 
If they come up in a litter then I DO think they can be just as functional as any other color....well..:-k maybe not as good as a sable! :grin:


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

ann schnerre said:


> you're going to look at buying a GSD based on COLOR?? [-X ](*,)
> 
> please don't--if you're stuck on black, stay with your Bouvs.


You took the words out of my mouth PLEASE STAY AWAY


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## Molly Graf (Jul 20, 2006)

Right - noone should breed just for black (or any other) color - but black does happen LOL - the litters I mentioned in my post - Bandit is sable with black recessive, Upsy is black - Sequoiah is sable with black recessive, Doc is black - Lea is black/tan with black recessive. I have never bred black to black, mainly because I don't want a whole litter of blacks, and also I wouldn't want anyone thinking I may be breeding just for color, even though the two black dogs might be great matches for each other, despite the color! LOLOLOL

molly


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

Hey, isn't that kind of similar to selecting for "only german" titles?


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

For working dog people, ya'll sure do care a lot about what other working dog people think your dog looks like. But what do I know? I just have my red and rangy possum dogs. :lol:


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

I was considering getting Pitch and training her to attack white people.
I figured I might even get to star in a made for TV movie.
Then I remembered I'm white and gave up in the idea VBG


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## James Lechernich (Oct 20, 2009)

Thomas Barriano said:


> I was considering getting Pitch and training her to attack white people.
> I figured I might even get to star in a made for TV movie.
> Then I remembered I'm white and gave up in the idea VBG


Wait for it...


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

I did actually rent that movie from Netflix and watched it tonight. It was...interesting.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Lets not start this again folks!


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## James Lechernich (Oct 20, 2009)

Bob Scott said:


> Lets not start this again folks!


Alright Bob. Better make my previous post a little shorter then! ;-)


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> Lets not start this again folks!


OK, forget about any mention of Race.
I just noticed I'm now listed as a "Senior Member".
I don't think any mention of a members age should be allowed either.


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

damn I have been a member since may of 2006 - why am I not a senior member......I feel left out


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## James Lechernich (Oct 20, 2009)

will fernandez said:


> damn I have been a member since may of 2006 - why am I not a senior member......I feel left out


You haven't been blabby enough, obviously. 







Get to work!


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

ann schnerre said:


> you're going to look at buying a GSD based on COLOR?? [-X ](*,)
> 
> please don't--if you're stuck on black, stay with your Bouvs.


 Ann I'm NOT buying based on color alone, color is one of the things that I want. Like it being female, having a sound temperament, AKC registerable, WORKING lines, breed quality, full registeration, no co-ownership, not spayed, no shitters, proper bite alignment, not cowhocked, not a fear biter or handler aggressive, potty trained at 6 weeks if a puppy...did I leave anything out? LOL


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

I think that the breeding of any dog should be done to improve the lines of that breed, or to continue those quality lines. Bouviers don't all come in BLACK! 

I like dark red and black, I want working lines and not show. I remember a guy several years ago tried to tell me that white Border Collies could herd sheep, something about the sheep not respecting the dog. Funny, my female Split had a white mother and Skye worked sheep just fine on the farm. =D>

Just thing about going back to the German Shepherd...still like those big Bouvs! 8-[


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## kevin holford (Apr 11, 2009)

Slap yourself... If you want a black pointy eared black dog- Get a Scotty!


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

I thought they put YOUR type of people on the PA front line....during the 1700 Indian Wars, arrow targets! Guess some of the gene pool is still kick'n...and to think the PA license plate said, "Yous gota friend in PA" or some such sillyness as that!!!!!!

AND don't f-up that Bouvier puppy. There's a Clause that can hurt you...Santa Clause!!!!! :mrgreen::twisted:

Get a Scottie....RIGHT...a small g#y guy in a plaid skirt! I should have checked my VOICE MAIL closer the first time you called....friend!!!!!!! LOL been landscaping and keeping evil sheep from doing harm to the flowers and locals...


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## Anne Pridemore (Mar 20, 2010)

Potty trained at 6 weeks........ 

I'm sorry but maybe you shouldn't even own a working dog. Pups should not leave mom till at least 8 weeks, tho I will not take one before 12 weeks. Much less demanding a fully house trained puppy at 6 weeks. 

Sure GSDs are smart dogs, and I'm sure some may pick it up that fast. But you clearly have no idea about buying a puppy at all, much less a working quality GSD.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

"Get a Scottie"! :lol:
DAMN! Howard wants to herd sheep. Not butcher em cause some nastly little dog took one to many bites outa them.
Anne, I know many working people that get their pups at 6 weeks. Myself included. 
Do I expect them to be house broken then, no. I'll give them a couple of weeks longer.;-)
WAY to much can be done with a pup in that 6-12 week time period. 
By 12 weeks they will know sit, down, come, basic position on heeling and they WILL be house broke. JMHO of course! ;-)


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## Anne Pridemore (Mar 20, 2010)

Bob Scott said:


> WAY to much can be done with a pup in that 6-12 week time period.
> By 12 weeks they will know sit, down, come, basic position on heeling and they WILL be house broke. JMHO of course! ;-)


Best dog I own stayed with his litter/dam till 12 weeks. He was house trained by the breeder, not that I care I could have done it. But his social skills are 100 times better than the pups I got younger. He never tried to nip, nor was he excessively mouthy as a pup. But when given the correct thing to bite (like the tug for example) he bites and holds until told to give.

He has never had many of the common behavior issues most pups have. In talking with other dog owners and a handfull of breeders, others have seen the same results as I have with the pup being with the litter longer. I will gladly be 6 weeks slower in training for the advantage of a stable puppy.

Also JMO based on my experiance.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Anne Pridemore said:


> Potty trained at 6 weeks........
> 
> I'm sorry but maybe you shouldn't even own a working dog. Pups should not leave mom till at least 8 weeks, tho I will not take one before 12 weeks. Much less demanding a fully house trained puppy at 6 weeks.
> 
> Sure GSDs are smart dogs, and I'm sure some may pick it up that fast. But you clearly have no idea about buying a puppy at all, much less a working quality GSD.


Anne - that is very much debatable. I will not take a pup older than 6 weeks, for very good reasons based on scientific research and my experiences. The last puppy I raised I got at just over 5 weeks.

At 6 weeks old, I can shape a puppy to be exactly what I want it to be. I can teach a puppy at least a foundation for everything it needs to know as an adult.

Once you get to 12 weeks old, you've lost most of the dog's learning opportunity for a lifetime. No breeder - no matter how responsible - can match what I can do to socialize and train a very young puppy. A puppy sitting in a kennel with dam and littermates is poorly prepared for training, IMO.

Insults to members - not appreciated.

Curious as to what the "social skills" and "common behavior problems most pups have." Please, tell us!


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Anne Pridemore said:


> Best dog I own stayed with his litter/dam till 12 weeks. He was house trained by the breeder, not that I care I could have done it. But his social skills are 100 times better than the pups I got younger. He never tried to nip, nor was he excessively mouthy as a pup. But when given the correct thing to bite (like the tug for example) he bites and holds until told to give.
> 
> He has never had many of the common behavior issues most pups have. In talking with other dog owners and a handfull of breeders, others have seen the same results as I have with the pup being with the litter longer. I will gladly be 6 weeks slower in training for the advantage of a stable puppy.
> 
> Also JMO based on my experiance.


The majority of German Shepherd breeders I know like to keep the pups for 7 or 8 weeks for social skills proper rank definition. Breeder is also able to get a better read on the puppies


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Mike Scheiber said:


> The majority of German Shepherd breeders I know like to keep the pups for 7 or 8 weeks for social skills proper rank definition. Breeder is also able to get a better read on the puppies


What social skills exactly? 

Pack rank is fluid up to 8 weeks - your point is invalid. (But a very strong reason for taking a pup before 12 weeks.)

Not every breeder is able to get a better read on the puppies. It's all relative.


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## Anne Pridemore (Mar 20, 2010)

Dog social behavior and biting issues. 

Perhaps as educated dog owners you don't see the issues because you know what your doing with your working dogs. But all the pet owners I work with to slolve biteing and dog aggression have almost all gotten pups around 6 weeks old. 

So the uneducated person ruins the dog. All power to you if you can raise a 5 week old to be what you want. I would reather work with a more developed puppy.

I'll bow out of this thread, sorry for the insult to the OP. Good luck in finding a puppy.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Anne Vaini said:


> Once you get to 12 weeks old, you've lost most of the dog's learning opportunity for a lifetime.


Intentional hijack - But, what does this mean? What is a learning opportunity and how does age dictate that it's lost for a lifetime?


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Well, I don't think ALL is lost after12 weeks but I'm a stickler for Day 49. If you told me 6 weeks or 8 weeks, I'll take 6. In my lifetime of dogs, the dogs I got past Day 49 had some issue. My Day 49 dogs that I selected myself---exactly what I wanted. The dog that I had with the most dog-to-dog issues, I got at 12 weeks. It is all relative. You get a 10-12 week old that I whelped, its sociaized, leash broke, crate trained/sleeping separatate at night and on a housebreaking schedule. Not everyone does that. I get a GSD puppy on Friday, by Monday morning its on a schedule and knows that it potty's outside. Pet people can ruin a puppy at any age and not all breeders are equal. If you watch a bitch raise a litter, the doggie education is about 5-7 weeks. Maybe by 12 weeks they've outgrown hanging off your pants leg but that depends on the drives of the dog. Khira is 6 and can still load up and want to bite SOMETHING. Puppy age at acquisition is not going to save the person who has no training/rearing skills. The good breeder selects the right person for the right dog and gets them through the process. 

Terrasita


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

Howard Gaines III said:


> ...black and not bi-color...


i do apologize howard--this part of your OP, and the title of the thread led me to believe you were basing a potential purchase on color, with other criteria of course, but the "color" requirement seemed pretty clear to me.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Nicole Stark said:


> Intentional hijack - But, what does this mean? What is a learning opportunity and how does age dictate that it's lost for a lifetime?


I don't have my text with me (anyone else have the Handbook of Applied Dog Behavior and Training vol. 1 ?)


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Ah you are talking fundamentals, not necessarily the capacity to learn relative to training opportunities. That's what I was trying to understand. I'm following now. Carry on!


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

What are you looking for Anne?
I have the book.
I can only say that any pup that I've selected has turned out exctly as I saw when testing.
Can they change? Of course, but I see that more as a nuturing thing then nature.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Bob Scott said:


> "Get a Scottie"! :lol:
> DAMN! Howard wants to herd sheep. Not butcher em cause some nastly little dog took one to many bites outa them.
> Anne, I know many working people that get their pups at 6 weeks. Myself included.
> Do I expect them to be house broken then, no. I'll give them a couple of weeks longer.;-)
> ...


If anyone thinks that I am really thinking a 6 week old should be potty trained...you haven't got a clue!!!!! HUMOR FOLKS!!!! At 7 weeks, they better have defense and be able to handle stick hits...Bob are you seeing the ABUSE I'm taking here? This is down right painful...:-#


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

*Not a problem Ann!!!* 

Ahhhh the 49 day theory....Much has been written and tested on this topic. I want them at 7 weeks or 49 days. Responsible breeds can see behaviors forming at 4-5 weeks. In that time frame, the buyer can be given better choices. For folks who think it isn't true, do some homework.


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## Adi Ibrahimbegovic (Nov 21, 2008)

Erri Blatenskeho Zamku, currently handled by Mike Diehl from Indiana. One of excellent black GSDs around.


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

'spensive, I bet.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

If i was looking for a black pup, I'd wait and see who Dean breeds Vienna von der Sägmühle to after Mark finishes competing with her this year. Mark and Vienna took 5th place at the 2009 USA GSD Schutzhund Championship. This is one super bitch, and worth waiting for. She is an Olex daughter. Last night Mark had her out and was working ob then protection with her. She is quick and hard, as nice a bitch as I've ever seen.


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## Laura Bollschweiler (Apr 25, 2008)

susan tuck said:


> If i was looking for a black pup, I'd wait and see who Dean breeds Vienna von der Sägmühle to after Mark finishes competing with her this year. Mark and Vienna took 5th place at the 2009 USA GSD Schutzhund Championship. This is one super bitch, and worth waiting for. She is an Olex daughter. Last night Mark had her out and was working ob then protection with her. She is quick and hard, as nice a bitch as I've ever seen.


But does she produce well? She's had two litters to two different males. They should be at least two, maybe three years old now.

Laura


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

I think the oldest is just over 2 maybe? Nicholas zur Bindenburg from the breeding with Boston Kevin's Gismo Mohnwiese. There's a bunch of videos of this pup on you tube. This one from a Bernhard Flinks seminar http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vx6jTkgCSW0

And look here's one with Bernard teaching this pup the send out. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wfl-EYNdFFg&feature=related 

I do think this pup was recently sold.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

susan tuck said:


> If i was looking for a black pup, I'd wait and see who Dean breeds Vienna von der Sägmühle to after Mark finishes competing with her this year. Mark and Vienna took 5th place at the 2009 USA GSD Schutzhund Championship. This is one super bitch, and worth waiting for. She is an Olex daughter. Last night Mark had her out and was working ob then protection with her. She is quick and hard, as nice a bitch as I've ever seen.


I to was talking to Dean about Vienna  and was going to do some snooping to see what she has produced. She impressed me at the Nationals. 
I'm personally not a fan of the blacks often not all they seem to be slitter boned foxy heads but hay I'm all about a worker


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Mike Scheiber said:


> I to was talking to Dean about Vienna  and was going to do some snooping to see what she has produced. She impressed me at the Nationals.
> I'm personally not a fan of the blacks often not all they seem to be slitter boned foxy heads but hay I'm all about a worker


Me neither, my favorites are good ole working line traditional grey dogs.


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

Mike Scheiber said:


> I'm personally not a fan of the blacks often not all they seem to be slitter boned foxy heads but hay I'm all about a worker


 
that's exactly how i feel about them as well, though i have, in the past couple of years, seen some with good bone and substance.

marsha's pup in the flinks videos above, IS a NICE pup. she was trying to work him with a bad knee (hers, not his), and couldn't work him well because she couldn't post him well. but he had PLENTY of drive--i liked him, FWIW.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

ann schnerre said:


> that's exactly how i feel about them as well, though i have, in the past couple of years, seen some with good bone and substance.
> 
> marsha's pup in the flinks videos above, IS a NICE pup. she was trying to work him with a bad knee (hers, not his), and couldn't work him well because she couldn't post him well. but he had PLENTY of drive--i liked him, FWIW.


Isn't that why she was selling him - her bad knee? I think he looks like a real nice pup too.


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

i don't know why she's selling him, TBH--haven't asked her. but at that seminar, she actually left a day early b/c she couldn't tolerate the pressure on that knee--and that boy could hit the end of the line HARD.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

ann schnerre said:


> i don't know why she's selling him, TBH--haven't asked her. but at that seminar, she actually left a day early b/c she couldn't tolerate the pressure on that knee--and that boy could hit the end of the line HARD.


Ware is the dog


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

susan tuck said:


> I think the oldest is just over 2 maybe? Nicholas zur Bindenburg from the breeding with Boston Kevin's Gismo Mohnwiese. There's a bunch of videos of this pup on you tube. This one from a Bernhard Flinks seminar http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vx6jTkgCSW0
> 
> And look here's one with Bernard teaching this pup the send out. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wfl-EYNdFFg&feature=related
> 
> I do think this pup was recently sold.


 
Mike: Here is where he was:
http://www.traumwolfen.com/nicho.html


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

I see there's a black Paska granddaughter for sale advertised on PDB:

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/classifieds/97406.html

Paska Saltzalblick
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/126254.html


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

Conneforde lines tend to be black I think.


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