# PTSD & Cars



## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

So many apologies in advance if this is too pet oriented for you all, but I'm fresh out of ideas concerning Strider my Aussie mix and I need different perspectives.

About two years ago, I was rear ended while turning into the parking lot outside my favorite trail head. I had Zoso, Strider, and a foster dog with me and my Saturn was totaled. However, all the dogs were fine...physically at least. Well, now I have a Chevy Impala with a bigger back seat and ever since, Strider has been nervous (and understandably so) and won't relax in the car. Even during a 5 hour car trip (if I drive up to my parents' house), he will not usually lie down in the back seat like the other dogs. It's gotten to the point where he stays in a half sit half standing bracing position as if he's waiting for us to go get hit from behind again. Sometimes this causes him to defecate because he is in a bit of a squatting position and I guess it just relaxes his bowels. He'll do it whether he's loose in the back or in a crate and it can be on a ride for just 5 minutes. We can take him potty beforehand and he won't need to go, but sometimes he'll still go in the car just because he'll assume that position. He just refuses to lie down and just squats and tongue flicks and salivates. He does it in my husband's Camry when he drives, but no accidents like with me (I drive the dogs around much more though).

Suffice it to say that even though I know it isn't this fault and I can't really scold him, this is getting highly annoying. Normally for my clients I'd suggest counter conditioning and that sort of thing by taking very short trips and that sort of thing, which I've done. He just refuses to relax. Short of buying a big SUV or station wagon and having him loose in the back (which I can't do), any ideas? I should sue the idiot girl who rear ended me for post traumatic stress disorder. :roll:


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Is there room for a crate?


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Have you tried just hanging out in the car without driving anywhere?


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Drugs, just use drugs.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Drugs, just use drugs.


It's not good to drive under the influence.


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Drugs, just use drugs.


 
Sedatives! I second that motion...


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## Al Curbow (Mar 27, 2006)

Did you try having someone in the backseat with him and make him lay down to see if it continues?


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Is there room for a crate?





Maren Bell Jones said:


> He'll do it whether he's loose in the back or in a crate and it can be on a ride for just 5 minutes.


So yeah...even bought a bigger crate (an XL instead of a L) for the ride home from the vet (he had a check up today) thinking maybe he needed a little more floor space. Yup, pooped in that one too. 

He can be in the car when it's not moving just fine. He hops up there no problem when it is time to go somewhere and if I have to run errands and have them wait in the car (it being cool enough to do so, of course), he's fine. No whining, barking, salivating, etc. The car in motion, even just a little bit, is the trigger. He adopts the bracing posture, starts to tongue flick and lick, pant, and salivates. No whining though at least. I'd prefer not to have to sedate him because we take several trips a week to the trails, especially during the summer, and it seems not right to sedate a dog for a 5 minute car ride.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Al Curbow said:


> Did you try having someone in the backseat with him and make him lay down to see if it continues?



That seems like a plan.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

I haven't had anyone sit in the backseat with him, but my husband will sit in the front seat turned around and I'll be driving and he'll still do it.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

He was probably looking out the back window when it happened, and no, I cannot imagine sitting in the back and getting shit on.

DRUGS!


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## Ian Forbes (Oct 13, 2006)

Sounds to me that he is commenting on your driving prowess - ever thought of letting him take the wheel?

Seriously, is there anything he really likes (food, chew toy, bones) that would distract/relax him while in the car??


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

Have someone wear a rubber suit or a giant full body condom like in naked gun, and sit in the back seat with him and force him to down. Don't let him practice that stupidity or it will continue to be a habbit for him. Don't try to comfort him, its just like any fear based reaction from a dog "aww its a good boy, you're damn right to be scared because I'm gonna plow into someone any minute now, good boy for bracing yourself already! you're the smart one" :lol:

The shitting IMO is less to do with the squatting and more to do with fear, but I could be wrong. But dogs tend to poop out of fear, if he's scared of the car ride then that would be a likely explanation. So have somone force him to down and don't praise until he's down and calm.


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

If you don't want to use _drugs_....for the dog  :wink:......there are several natural products you can try first.

*Rescue Remedy

*Ultra Calm biscuits from Drs. Foster & Smith (the only thing is that a canister doesn't last long because you have to give several biscuits at a time)

*PetCalm

This website has several products, as well: Only Natural Pet Store


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

for lack of any other bright ideas, i tend to agree w/Al and Mike. could be a long haul tho. start out w/Strider in his crate w/someone back there, "down", increase "down" time b/f you even put the car in drive...go slow, slow slow. i think it would be fair to correct for breaking the down, and perhaps at the beginning of the training, do use drugs. you too if you need to! just don't drive!!


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Ian, he is not highly food motivated, so even when I use a high priority food reward to try to get him to lie down like hotdog or cheese, he'll mouth it and spit it out because of the state of anxiety he is in. 

Mike, I know all too well not to comfort him. I'm generally a fairly good behaviorist if I don't say so myself.  However, this is just stumping me. He's not exactly squatting like when dogs normally are about to poop. It's more of a bracing posture. The front legs are a bit splayed out and locked and the back legs are tucked but locked. Like if you've had a dog on a leash that doesn't want to go somewhere and pulls back against you instead of moving forwards. It's like he doesn't want to go flying forward or something (not that I blame him after getting rear ended).

Ann, he's a very soft dog who does not take corrections well (takes a while to recover from even a light to moderate correction) and will not take food rewards after being corrected, so I think I'll try to make it as low key as possible.

Kristen, thanks for the product ideas. In addition, someone suggested a calming cap (made by Premier): http://www.premier.com/pages.cfm?id=188 as they are apparently helpful for trips to the vet and car rides and other stressful things. I've also tried Sniffers, which are training treats that have some sort of calming herbs for calm and focus during training exercises. Doesn't seem to really help.

All I am really glad is the raw diet makes his poop fairly hard (or a little powdery) so when it does happen, I usually just have to take the blanket out of the car and give it a good shake and throw it in the wash. So at least it's not liquid...


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Rescue Remedy has a few ingredients that might actually work, but it's one of those 1 part per fifty zillion (as in zero parts, IMO) things.

The thing is, it's largely alcohol.

I may be wrong, but I think maybe a shot of Schnapps would be similar and cheaper.

Again, many people swear by the stuff, and I am open-minded....... I've just never REALLY seen homeopathic stuff work. (Herbal, yes, absolutely .... but in parts-per-million that don't require 11 decimal places).

JMO. :>)


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

I've used rescue remedy in the past as a human, it kinda helps when you're under alot of stress and anxiety but never tried it on animals.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Rescue remedy is usually touted by people that have a dog come in to a new situation a little nervous, then they put the dog on the stuff and magically 5 days later, the dog isn't nervous anymore. 

A long way of saying it is crap.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Rescue remedy is usually touted by people that have a dog come in to a new situation a little nervous, then they put the dog on the stuff and magically 5 days later, the dog isn't nervous anymore.
> 
> A long way of saying it is crap.


Well, that's kinda what I was saying, except you left out the part about the alcohol. :lol:


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Mike Schoonbrood said:


> I've used rescue remedy in the past as a human, it kinda helps when you're under alot of stress and anxiety but never tried it on animals.


It doesn't count when you knock it back with a boilermaker chaser.


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

It, along with the other products, was just a suggestion, Connie. RR _does_ work for Gypsy and thunderstorms (which she is only anxious about if she's in the house - if she's out IN it, she's just fine...go figure), but it could just be the alcohol, as you said. \\/ :lol:

I don't know that that calming cap would help, because he isn't anxious about the surroundings, but hey, you could try it, I guess. Nothing ventured, nothing gained! 

What about using a clicker? Start by clicking him for jumping into the car, for example, and then for lying down in the back seat, and then practice down-stays in the back seat with the rear door open and the engine off, and then down-stays in the back seat with the rear door closed, and then with the engine on, etc. I don't know if it would work, or not, but again, it's a suggestion.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Kristen Cabe said:


> It, along with the other products, was just a suggestion, Connie.


Hey, I was nice about it! Talk to Jeff! :lol:

My daughter swears by it for my typical-Border-Terrier granddog when he has to go to the vet, so what do I know? I'm just saying that there's nothing in it in any more than one part-per-zillion except alcohol.

I remain (kind of) open-minded, however.


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Hey, I was nice about it! Talk to Jeff! :lol:



I try not to, if I can get away with it!  :lol:


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## Lynn Cheffins (Jul 11, 2006)

A few suggestions - 
1. -get a smaller crate, not a larger one - it needs to be a little confining. (You could try using your XL crate and put a very calm, non scrappy dog in with him,also)

2. - don't use a blanket in the bottom - use a rubber mat or a stiff piece of carpet or something the dogs toes can grip on, also cover the crate.

3. - put the dog in the crate and if he soils it - take him out, clean it up and then put him back in the crate and keep driving - if he soils it again - take him out and repeat. If he has been drooling alot - offer him a small amt of water(too much he might barf) and put him back in the crate and start driving again. The trip has to be long enough that he exhausts himself a bit and eventually falls asleep(you hope) or at least calms down and lays down on his own, so think long boring road trip, not a trip to the park.

4. don't put him in the crate unless he is tongue-dragging-the-ground tired.(and probably "empty" )

5. move the crate - if it is usually on the passenger side of the vehicle put it on the drivers side,etc

6. go for your drive at night- visually alot less going than daytime

7. don't say anything to him while he is in the crate - no commands nothing

7. repeat every day

not a behaviorist or dog trainer but I put on mega road miles travelling with dogs and this usually does the trick

(when you return from your trip absolutely exhausted from driving all day and smelling of dog p**p you can have a large swig of "Rescue Remedy" for yourself:smile:-or something similar .....)


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Great suggestions, Lynn.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Thanks Lynn! I was thinking he would be better with a larger crate as he seems to do a little better in a situation where the back end is flat, like if we visit my parents and happen to have him ride in my father's old Suburban or my brother's Explorer. I think he thinks he's just going to go flying forward and the back end of an SUV or a station wagon maybe feels more stable because he can get a better grip than on a car seat.

Unfortunately, it's just not practical to buy an SUV, van, or wagon just for the dogs at the moment with gas prices what they are and us trying to save to buy a house a little bit more out in the country. We had given some thought to buying a truck, but I think the house is the bigger priority. And this doesn't happen every single time, either. Like sometimes he'll go months without doing it and then he'll do it two or three times in one week. So far, I think the overwhelming verdict is to take lots of drugs...for me! However, we will probably end up giving him to my husband's parents this summer anyways (not because of this) because they absolutely love him and have been wanting a dog for a long time. They've threatened to kidnap him many times (mostly in jest). They never really take any sorts of road trips much and they have a big park right down the street. We'll see...


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

would you ask an easier question next time, like I do????


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Not topic related I suppose, but that Jeff Oehlsen guy can make a person smile even if they had dog poop in their mouth.


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## Pauline Michels (Sep 1, 2006)

Uh oh....more and more of us are starting to see through all that Jeff-tough-guy stuff. I was even thinking I'd like to have a cold one at his bar if it wasn't so far away.


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

Pauline Michels said:


> Uh oh....more and more of us are starting to see through all that Jeff-tough-guy stuff. I was even thinking I'd like to have a cold one at his bar if it wasn't so far away.


only if he doesn't know who I am. But it definitely could be fun to go in "incognito" and ask him what he really thinks about dog sports....like wear a pitbull or bouvier or border collie pin or 20...


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I would bust you out pretty much the minute you walked into the bar.

Don't ever believe that you can get all the dog fur off.

Sad thing is, people always get disapointed when they find out that I am that guy. Just happen to be funny at the same time.

Now drug the stupid dog or give him to your parents. I swear, until you get a real dog, you may have to be punished. Go to your room.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Don't ever believe that you can get all the dog fur off....


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Now drug the stupid dog or give him to your parents. I swear, until you get a real dog, you may have to be punished. Go to your room.


[-X Now now, Jeff, I'm not a subordinate female and not even hubby can get away with telling me to go to my room. It's usually the other way around. :twisted: 

Go figure, I am resistant to having to drug my dog for a 5 minute car trip to the trails 3-4 (or more) times a week. Gawd, I'll make a terrible veterinary behaviorist. Instead of prescribing expensive meds, I might just *gasp* recommend training and exercise.  Of course, that will require "work" on the part of the client and all...and we all know how well that will go over.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

You are probably not destined for greatness.......unless you get a TV show.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> You are probably not destined for greatness.......unless you get a TV show.



And Jeff could be the sidekick! (Think Ed McMahon.)


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## kellie pulido (Apr 24, 2007)

I think what Lynn suggested was the best answer.The smaller the crate the better,with something firm in the bottom that gives the dog some grip,and maybe cover it up too.And the person who handles the dog the most could sit in the back with him too.I know my little malinois would not shut up in his crate no matter what you did,what did help some was crating him next to my big solid gsd who doesn't get freaked by anything, it was almost the same concept as the race horses and their little mascots.


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## Al Curbow (Mar 27, 2006)

If it was my dog , i'd have my wife drive and i'd sit in the back and make the lay down, drive a short ways, get out and reward, repeat, repeat, repeat, blah blah blah, simple, that's it, no behaviorist needed. I'd fix it before i would give the dog away to someone (unless it was my inlaws, lol)


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> You are probably not destined for greatness.......unless you get a TV show.


Funny you should mention that, Jeff. Absolutely dead serious: about two months ago, I got an e-mail from a head of a production company (they've done shows like Hogan Knows Best, Cribs, and True Life) asking if I want to be a host on a show that they were billing as "like Nanny 911, but with dogs." I was thinking, erm, Dog Whisperer anyone? Anyways, I never did respond back. I made the mistake of telling my mother about that (she was a model in the 1970s and always dreamed of being an actress) and she couldn't believe I didn't respond back. Ah well,that coulda been my big break. :smile: Too bad I don't have Cesar Millan's flashy white teeth and hot bod that looks great in a wet suit. Ah well...


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

You must be mental. Send them a response and I will be your stupid sidekick. 


Man what were you thinking????


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

*thinks to self* 

Vet school...have my own show...vet school...have my own show...

Yeah, I must be mental!


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Yeah, thought processes requiring effort, or smile at the camera, and pick up big check. STILL MENTAL.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

I was going to offer some advice on what I would do in this situation but have decided to refrain. It is more than obvious that drug dependency has gone past the "have to only phase of human consumption" to the answer to everything. Besides, I figure it is one of Marens rescue dogs so what if it has some baggage. It should be expected. Yes, less than stable dogs shit when scared, thus the phrase, "scaring the shit out of them."


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Yes, I will offer some advice. Put the dog in the front seat but cover the seat with a blanket first. Get plenty of air freshener. AND, Next time you teach a dog to sit, make sure he understands what you want.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

I agree with the posts about either making the dog lay down, putting him in a small covered crate, or even trying the front seat.

I'd add to that peppermint oil. Some people swear by it, and use it on their dog who have problems with gunfire, storms, etc etc. You can dab it on their pads so they don't have to eat it. A google search should find some websites about what type to buy, amount to use, etc.

Sometimes different types of crates also work, plastic vs wire. Finally, if you throw a couple handfuls of wood shavings into the crate it will make any accidents MUCH easier to clean up, just tilt and dump into the garbage can. If they are cedar shavings it also helps cover up any odor.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Don, you're correct, he was a shelter dog (my first, in fact) but he did not exhibit this behavior before we got rear ended back in 2005. And, as I've said before, he does not do it every time. He can go several months without doing it, especially considering they take car rides 3-4+ times a week. There is not a specific trigger that will cause him to do it (like a sudden stop or something) other than the car in motion. In the car=fine. In the car with motion, even at low speeds=not fine. And as I've also said before, he's not squatting like he's got to go. He's bracing his legs like if you have a dog that doesn't want to go somewhere and is pulling back against a leash. And yes, he does know how to sit, thanks. :roll:

Kadi, as he's raw fed, the mess is actually very easy to clean up. I have an old blanket in the back seat and all it needs is a shake out and toss in the washer if it is bad off beyond what I can do a quick spray with Nature's Miracle. Having a ferret, two rats, and two snakes, wood shavings are more of a mess than anything and can be a real PITA to vacuum up if they get out of the crate. He really dislikes sitting in the front seat and it's more dangerous anyways, so I'll stick with the back, probably without the crate as it doesn't seem to help (even the one I have with fewer ventilation holes and less visability).


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

We had a drug dog, a four year old female, black labrador. It had been working on the road for 2 years. One evening, while the Trooper was running the dog around a vehicle on the I road, the dog was struck by a car driven by a drunk. Neither the dog nor the Trooper were seriously injured. The dog, however, would not work along side the road. She was very good in buildings, she even did well in parking lots. Bring her to the side of the road though and instant stress. Mouth open, breathing heavily and staring at traffic. I had to retire her. The handler kept her because the kids had fallen in love with her, the handler is now working a Mal.

DFrost


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