# No More BS! Yes or NO



## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Lets get this on the record with a very simple up or down vote. Who thinks these untrained dogs are going to bite Dave and who doesn't.

You all know by now what my vote is. Yes they are going to bite the shit out of him.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Lee H Sternberg said:


> Lets get this on the record with a very simple up or down vote. Who thinks these untrained dogs are going to bite Dave and who doesn't.
> 
> You all know by now what my vote is. Yes they are going to bite the shit out of him.


What are the rules here? I'll give a definite answer.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

to be clear i think they will bite unless they don't bite then i think they won't...i think


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Dave Colborn said:


> What are the rules here? I'll give a definite answer.


No cumbersome rules! You are going to threaten Don any way you desire, any place within 5 miles of his house and his dogs are going to bite you.


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## Ben Colbert (Mar 9, 2010)

I thought the question want whether they would bite (all dogs will bite) but whether they would protect Don.


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## Dave Martin (Aug 11, 2010)

Lee H Sternberg said:


> Lets get this on the record with a very simple up or down vote. Who thinks these untrained dogs are going to bite Dave and who doesn't.


I really don't know one way or the other, which is why I'm very eager for this test to happen.

On the one hand, I'd like to think he will be bitten but I wonder if the bites won't be chewy, maybe the dog even pops off a few times when he gives them real pressure.

Then I wonder if the 'pressure' and aggression Dave will display before the dog engages may be enough for one or more of them to turn tail and get out of there before any contact is even made. We all know there are pet dogs that bite, be it through fear or whatever, but I remind myself these dogs have never learned to be confident fighting a man. But maybe if the dogs have it, they have it.. 

I think most would agree, dogs view humans much differently than game; so like everyone else, obviously I'm extremely curious to see these dogs' reactions to the proposed scenario(s) they'll be faced with.


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Dave Martin said:


> I really don't know one way or the other, which is why I'm very eager for this test to happen.
> 
> On the one hand, I'd like to think he will be bitten but I wonder if the bites won't be chewy, maybe the dog even pops off a few times when he gives them real pressure.
> 
> ...


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Ben Colbert said:


> I thought the question want whether they would bite (all dogs will bite) but whether they would protect Don.


I obviously mean bite to protect Don.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

i think the decoy should at least start off steady and build from there - any idiot can put a suit on and run at a dog screaming like a craked out banshee - proffesionalism guys - this is supposed to be educational not complete idiocy.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Lee. Good call. No more BS. 

They will not bite me in his house, they will not bite me by a mouse. They will not bite me in a car, they will not bite me near or far. Don will yell and they will scatter, bite suit or carharts it will not matter. 

Not with green eggs and ham is what I am sayin!!!

Just not going to happen. I think you should take bets more in terms of how many feet they are from me when they run, or if they even bark. O and OO on this roulette table is if the dogs don't even move towards me that's where the real money is. Let the betting begin. 



Just to be clear. I get to make as much noise as i want, can have my hands full, just can't hit the dogs.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

I say they do NOT protect. At most they might take a nip before they hide behind Dad. I like alternate breeds, but very few dogs are natural protectors. Also I'm not really sure if Don is part of their pack? It will be nice to see the question finally settled after a 100+ posts in at least three topics.


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## Doug Zaga (Mar 28, 2010)

Lee H Sternberg said:


> No cumbersome rules! You are going to threaten Don any way you desire, any place within 5 miles of his house and his dogs are going to bite you.


No.


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Thomas Barriano said:


> I say they do NOT protect. At most they might take a nip before they hide behind Dad. I like alternate breeds, but very few dogs are natural protectors. Also I'm not really sure if Don is part of their pack? It will be nice to see the question finally settled after a 100+ posts in at least three topics.


 
ditto


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## Randy Allen (Apr 18, 2008)

If we're talking a pack of dogs. I say it's a coin toss.
If we're talking one dog...... I vote dog shies.


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## Pete Stevens (Dec 16, 2010)

I gotta know...out of defense or aggression? I can get most dogs to bite me out of defense, a nip and run but full mouth and hold...not gonna happen.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Thomas Barriano said:


> I like alternate breeds, but *very few dogs are natural protectors*.


 
you might like them but obviously haven't had much to do with them.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

i'm itching to throw in my w.a.g., but i don't have the scenarios clear and i still don't have it straight how this will work ... but i thought i heard it was definitely only one dog that Don chose. i know he has a bunch and i thought they all kinda lived together right in front of his place in a pretty natural kinda setting, so i don''t know how/where the rest will be stowed away or put up during this test

thot there was gonna be a kinda carjack scene too, but i can't get an image of how that will work for dogs who usually ride in the back of a pick up in crates when they hit the road.....at least that's how i picture Don taking em out in a vehicle

i mentioned b4 my dog would probably not protect me if i was attacked, but he would be a lot more likely to do so if we were in a confined space like inside a car

i'm definitely itching to throw in my two yen but i still wanna read the ROE b4 i do 

not that it matters, but i think i could dress up like a mondio ring monster with streamers and sparklers and starter pistols flashing and run off a lot of dogs that had never seen it b4, but that's not exactly what is being tested is it ? or is it ?
i just keep getting confused 

i've always thought this is a test to see if Don's one dog steps up and aggressively puts "teeth on body" to protect him when he is getting attacked by Dave ... or doesn't protect, right ?

or is this just a "will he bite an intruder or not" scenario ?
i still think there is a big difference between a dog "guarding property" and one "protecting its owner"


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> you might like them but obviously haven't had much to do with them.


Peter

I'm not sure what your point is?
I've been training and trialing Protection dogs for about 20 years
Mainly Dobermanns with an American bull dog, and Dutch Shepherd thrown in. I've also seen a lot of other peoples dogs.
A natural protector (with no training) is rare. I have a friend that trained Airedales for a rescue group. It's hard to find an airedale that will protect WITH training, much less with NONE.


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## Randy Allen (Apr 18, 2008)

Well, thats the thing isn't it Rick.
One can train almost any dog to any one, two or three scenerios given the time and right training regimine according the dog. They will bite.
But an open ended threat to property or handler? Few balanced dogs take it that personally.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Peter
> 
> I'm not sure what your point is?
> 
> my point is there have been natural protectors for centuries, even before ring sport was invented. good thing to or the human population might not have survived to the numbers it has, our pioneers relied on them. thought that was obvious - there are dogs outside of sport.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Thank's for the entertainment Lee

Dave Colborn said


> If he is above board though, and they are fear aggressive, I will put enough heat on them that they will be on the far side of the yard. I can do that without touching them. If they are fearful and commit enough to bite when they have room to run (if they even exist) then based on the test if they put teeth on me, they have succeeded. You and I both know this proves nothing, other than a dog will nip in the yard, but it will validate his feelings about his dogs, so good for him (if he exists).
> 
> I am still not clear on the rules, but also don't care as per my first sentence on this post. I hope Don is a stand up guy, but nothing would lead me to believe that from what I have seen thus far.


Dave I got to ask you what planet you live on. "If I am a stand up guy and the dogs are fear aggressive?" No one here has ever even heard me come close to implying the dogs are fear aggressive. They never bite out of fear. They are not aggressive at all unless warranted.They are social dominate dogs is what I have always said. You just go along making up your own stories....but they aren't going to help. You said something about running around barking at you. LOL The only time they will bark is if they are contained and can't get to what they want. When they are serious and loose, they don't bark, they don't growl, they don't posture....at least any time in the many years I have been around them. ''You still have no idea what is happening??? Rick knows pretty much what the deal is. lol Once more just for you....LISTEN UP. The fine details will be worked out if you ever *put up a date*. I will meet you and Ariel out at the far front gate. Ariel and I will walk in so she can video all these viscious trained dogs wanting her to pet them. Just to dispell some comments. Ariel and I will go up on the deck with Titan. You will give us about 15 min and go ahead and drive up to the inside gate. Enter the yard throwing a fit. As you get closer to the deck where Ariel AND MY GIRlFRIEND(of course just another precaution), can video what is happening, I will come out hollering and Titan can come also if he so chooses(he will lead the way more than likely). This is set up this way to show none of the dogs are in any way territorialy aggressive. You and I will engage and see if he runs to the far side of the yard son. If he is taken back for a second or two, we will stay engaged and I will fall down, still hollering at you. Titan is only 68 lbs and grabs everything by the face so watch yourself. Hs dad, Winchester was the same way. Don't know about Odin but he is Titan's son. Hopefully with a person he will be a bit different. 

The carjacking scenario is much like any others Odin is a big dog and I am going to keep him on a leash to keep him in the truck. You come up screaming and banging on the truck (without putting dents in it) and come up to the passenger window raising hell and I will try to keep hold of him, but, I will give him enough leash to get hold of you IF you stay close to the window.

This is about protection and not defense. In the yard, it is a huge yard and if Titan wants to cur, he has plenty of room to do it. Once again, the only thing about people that I have instilled for 25 years years in these dogs is that I will kick their butts for showing any aggression with people. I will not tolerate it and Dave was told this by several people on my board because it is common knowledge. Yet he keeps bringing up the possibility that the dogs are trained. Balanced dogs will protect, but, they are not game players.

I was thinking about taking ther collars off, but, it is the only way I can get them off when they don't bite.

KEEP IN MIND PEOPLE, THE ONLY TRAINING THESE DOGS HAVE HAD WHERE PEOPLE ARE CONCERNED IS *NOT* TO SHOW AGGRESSION TO PEOPLE. Dave is blowing smoke at you on that one again.

Now everything should be clear enough for everyone but Dave....but we haven't got a date yet.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Peter
> 
> I'm not sure what your point is?
> I've been training and trialing Protection dogs for about 20 years
> ...


 
I am with Thomas, Dogs that have a natural to throw themselves in harms way solely motivated by love for thier handler is extremely rare. If this was prevelant dogs may not have survived to the masses they are in today.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

James Downey said:


> that have a natural to throw themselves in harms way solely motivated by love for thier handler is extremely rare.


livestock guardians willing go their own death to protect their own have done so for centuries that aint no myth either - same dogs will bond to about anything they are put through the process with - yes there is a process call it training if you want. 

none of it comes from "love" of anything as you say it is, simple artificial selection over generations.


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## Thomas Jones (Feb 4, 2011)

I got a dog that will naturally protect or at least he'll bite your ass and hold on if you F with me. He already has for you know it alls that believe a dog has to have training to do it. Anyone is welcome to come threaten me and see for yourself what he'll do. I without a doubt not be here if he hadn't saved my life that night the meth head broke in my house.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I keep wondering why the Airedale is being referred to as an "alternative" breed.

Apart from being the most fearless and robust breed tested during WWI+ II (especially inWWI) and used as messenger and rescue dog, he is still used as a Diensthund in Germany albeit not so often but still used.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3y9PE03ttFc

As you can see from the above (protection work in (2nd half) "he's summat to be reckoned with".


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> ''You still have no idea what is happening??? Rick knows pretty much what the deal is. lol Once more just for you....LISTEN UP.
> 
> As usual you pick things that don't matter and try to cloud the issue. I'll point that out once, clearly, and then Don, please say you are really sorry, and then tell us if they'll bite.
> 
> ...


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Gillian Schuler said:


> I keep wondering why the Airedale is being referred to as an "alternative" breed.
> 
> Apart from being the most fearless and robust breed tested during WWI+ II (especially inWWI) and used as messenger and rescue dog, he is still used as a Diensthund in Germany albeit not so often but still used.
> 
> ...




I have called a lot of dog alternative. To me, it is alternative to the mainstream. For me the mainstream of dogs that will do this are police dogs. I don't know who said it, but that is my definition. There are boxers doing police work in a few spots. They are not mainstream. Therefore, alternative breed.


That was a really pretty dog, nice heeling. 

Do you think Don's dogs will bite. That is what this thread is about. Not to be rude, just want to hear opinions as much as Lee does.


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## Ben Colbert (Mar 9, 2010)

Gillian Schuler said:


> I keep wondering why the Airedale is being referred to as an "alternative" breed.
> 
> Apart from being the most fearless and robust breed tested during WWI+ II (especially inWWI) and used as messenger and rescue dog, he is still used as a Diensthund in Germany albeit not so often but still used.
> 
> ...


That proves exactly why they are an "alternative" breed. The video was nice but if it was a Mal or GSD it would never be posted on this site as a brag. There are thousands of dogs from the big 3 that can do work like that and a handful of airedales.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Ben Colbert said:


> That proves exactly why they are an "alternative" breed. The video was nice but if it was a Mal or GSD it would never be posted on this site as a brag. There are thousands of dogs from the big 3 that can do work like that and a handful of airedales.



Pardon me for moderating Ben. But I'd like to keep this on topic. Trying to keep the extraneous stuff out so I can get a fair poll on who thinks they'll bite and who doesn't. I understand your answer and the question, and just ask that it be kept to a minimum.


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Dave, I totally agree with and support a POLL. I just have no idea how to do that. If one of the mods can create one and put these posts into it that would be great.

I have a hunch it might be too late.

I want to clear something up as far as being a supporter. I simply believe the dogs are going to bite. I had a little mutt terrier when I was a kid that was like the JRT that Bob Scott described in post 178 of the other thread. 

This mutt was substantially larger than a JRT but still pretty small. All our friends knew not to screw around with us if he was around because they would get bit. This little guy acted like a pro with full mouth and hang on from there on in, shaking and growling the whole time. A couple of my friend's parents complained to my parents after this little guy attacked their kid.

One of our other friends had a little Scottie that was almost as bad as our dog.

If it wasn't for those 2 dogs I would be voting with the rest of the crowd. If Don's dogs are anything like those 2 kid's dogs you might have your hands full.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Lee H Sternberg said:


> Dave, I totally agree with and support a POLL. I just have no idea how to do that. If one of the mods can create one and put these posts into it that would be great.
> 
> I have a hunch it might be too late.
> 
> ...



Got it Lee. I wasn't trying to say you were supporting anything other than the affirmative of they will bite. I disagree. Let me know what the odds are, and any side bets. lol


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Sorry for the OT post Dave but just wanted to clear things up.

Will the dog bite or not? I've not seen you in action and I've seen helpers that some dogs would think twice about biting just by the sheer mental force exuding.

Some dogs will bite if you attack them - not out of human / property protection - but will not allow anyone, even their handler, to injure them.

I don't know what Don's dogs are like but I think you will be the deciding factor.



Ask a postman :lol:


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Gillian Schuler said:


> Sorry for the OT post Dave but just wanted to clear things up.
> 
> Will the dog bite or not? I've not seen you in action and I've seen helpers that some dogs would think twice about biting just by the sheer mental force exuding.
> 
> ...


I have seen guys you are talking about. I am not that imposing as a decoy. I don't do trials, because I feel I would be too likely to slip into training.. This is a little different as I don't have to be consistent for several dogs, I just don't let his bite me.

I agree about this hinging on me, if they decide to get within biting distance.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Dave Colborn said:


> Don Turnipseed said:
> 
> 
> > ''You still have no idea what is happening??? Rick knows pretty much what the deal is. lol Once more just for you....LISTEN UP.
> ...


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Dave Colborn said:


> I have seen guys you are talking about. I am not that imposing as a decoy. I don't do trials, because I feel I would be too likely to slip into training.. This is a little different as I don't have to be consistent for several dogs, I just don't let his bite me.
> 
> I agree about this hinging on me, if they decide to get within biting distance.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

_I have seen guys you are talking about. I am not that imposing as a decoy. I don't do trials, because I feel I would be too likely to slip into training.. This is a little different as I don't have to be consistent for several dogs, I just don't let his bite me._

The guys I'm talking about are not only trial helpers. Trial helpers (licenced) have to obey to trial rules. I'm talking about helpers who can build up pups to reliable adult dog biters.

There are many good trial helpers but not many of the other sort.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Dave Colborn said:
> 
> 
> > I can assure you it will be done the way I said.
> ...


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Gillian Schuler said:


> _I have seen guys you are talking about. I am not that imposing as a decoy. I don't do trials, because I feel I would be too likely to slip into training.. This is a little different as I don't have to be consistent for several dogs, I just don't let his bite me._
> 
> The guys I'm talking about are not only trial helpers. Trial helpers (licenced) have to obey to trial rules. I'm talking about helpers who can build up pups to reliable adult dog biters.
> 
> There are many good trial helpers but not many of the other sort.


Exactly what I meant, though, Gillian. I am more of a training decoy. I fall into training. IE the goal is to help the dogs bite and teach them exercises, so I may relieve or press to make them bite better. This is what I can't do with Don's dogs if they get close enough. I have to just not let them bite.

I see where I was unclear. Did that make more sense?


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I get you!


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

No more BS? Nothing but BS!.. Between the two threads there has to be a few hundred posts over a week and STILL no date. Would someone else like to go challenge Dons Dog?


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Chris McDonald said:


> No more BS? Nothing but BS!.. Between the two threads there has to be a few hundred posts over a week and STILL no date. Would someone else like to go challenge Dons Dog?


You going to go do it chris? We can all meet in San Jose! We can talk about dutchies and what not.


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Hell I don’t really care enough if someone’s dog bites or not to get to involved in this. By the way I give it 70/30 that the dog does bite in some form. But we do need some more details…. Like a date! or not.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Chris McDonald said:


> Hell I don’t really care enough if someone’s dog bites or not to get to involved in this. By the way I give it 70/30 that the dog does bite in some form. But we do need some more details…. Like a date! or not.



Think I am balking Chris? I'll have a date shortly. It is contingent on flights, commitments. I can't just open my front door and say, welcome here don, let my dog bite you. It is a long trip, with some logistics.


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Dave Colborn said:


> Think I am balking Chris? I'll have a date shortly. It is contingent on flights, commitments. I can't just open my front door and say, welcome here don, let my dog bite you. It is a long trip, with some logistics.


I think you want to balk but will sub come to peer pressure. If you were really committed you would have a date by now. Its really not all to complicated of a trip


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Lee H Sternberg said:


> Lets get this on the record with a very simple up or down vote. Who thinks these untrained dogs are going to bite Dave and who doesn't.
> 
> You all know by now what my vote is. Yes they are going to bite the shit out of him.


I don't know Don's dogs, but if they are anything like a couple of jrts I've had and the bond is there, I think there is good chance they may bite...and mean it.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Chris McDonald said:


> I think you want to balk but will sub come to peer pressure. If you were really committed you would have a date by now. Its really not all to complicated of a trip


Oops. If you want to attempt to egg anyone, stick with Don. Gotta keep him motivated for this.

Got a date now. If you would have read ariels last post, you would have seen she was out of town all weekend and didn't have time to plan. Got time now!!


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Dave Colborn said:


> Oops. If you want to attempt to egg anyone, stick with Don. Gotta keep him motivated for this.
> 
> Got a date now. If you would have read ariels last post, you would have seen she was out of town all weekend and didn't have time to plan. Got time now!!


What do I got to egg Don for? I am pretty sure he gave dates that work for him? I don’t know if we got to keep him motivated? Just got to send him whisky


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Chris McDonald said:


> What do I got to egg Don for? I am pretty sure he gave dates that work for him? I don’t know if we got to keep him motivated? Just got to send him whisky


Short memory Dude. He balked when I said the word competition, then he came back in after much EGGING. Got to keep him motivated. 

Lol the whiskey


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Just don’t call it a competition and everything will be good


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Once again, the only thing about people that I have instilled for 25 years years in these dogs is that I will kick their butts for showing any aggression with people. I will not tolerate it and Dave was told this by several people on my board because it is common knowledge....
> 
> KEEP IN MIND PEOPLE, THE ONLY TRAINING THESE DOGS HAVE HAD WHERE PEOPLE ARE CONCERNED IS *NOT* TO SHOW AGGRESSION TO PEOPLE.


If this is true, it becomes less and likely that they will do more than bark. Though I'd still want to read exactly how it will be set up.

For the carjacking bit, Dave can set it up just like the PSA 1 handler attack on motorist. It is described as such in the PSA rule book. Obviously obedience certain parts won't apply, but the set up would work fine.



> 2. Handler Attack on Motorist (Guard/Return):
> Upon the steward’s signal, the team shall approach the car heeling on leash with an open driver’s door and the handler shall place the dog in a stay on the front seat. The door shall be left open. The handler shall proceed to the rear of the vehicle, and appear to work on opening the trunk. A decoy shall approach the handler from hiding from the rear of the vehicle and engage in a brief conversation. The dog must stay inside the car and not come out early. On the steward’s command the decoy shall attack the handler, and the dog must come to defend the handler immediately, and convincingly. The decoy may flee or attack the dog. Once the dog engages the decoy, the decoy shall drive the dog, and upon
> command of the steward, shall stop the attack, and the handler shall be asked to out his dog. The dog shall out on the handler’s command, and perform either an out and guard, or out and return. If the dog guards, the handler shall approach and pick his dog up on the signal of the steward, and the exercise shall be terminated once the dog heels away for a short distance. If the dog returns, the exercise shall be complete when the dog returns to heel position. Upon pick-up or return, the handler shall attach the leash. The handler may attach the leash on the dog in the guard.


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Chris McDonald said:


> What do I got to egg Don for? I am pretty sure he gave dates that work for him? I don’t know if we got to keep him motivated? Just got to send him whisky


I you are into sending booze I could use some descent RUM!


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> For the carjacking bit, Dave can set it up just like the PSA 1 handler attack on motorist. It is described as such in the PSA rule book. Obviously obedience certain parts won't apply, but the set up would work fine.


That scenario sounds reasonable and is something I would be interested in seeing incorporated into the vehicle test. I'd expect that for obvious reasons that the last part couldn't be executed but the rest I think can be.


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> If this is true, it becomes less and likely that they will do more than bark. Though I'd still want to read exactly how it will be set up.
> 
> For the carjacking bit, Dave can set it up just like the PSA 1 handler attack on motorist. It is described as such in the PSA rule book. Obviously obedience certain parts won't apply, but the set up would work fine.


I don't think he cared much if they they wanted to bite his what was going to be his future EX's or you for that matter!:razz:

BTW that was a low blow you hit him with about multi marriages on the other thread.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Lee H Sternberg said:


> I don't think he cared much if they they wanted to bite his what was going to be his future EX's or you for that matter!:razz:
> 
> BTW that was a low blow you hit him with about multi marriages on the other thread.


Lee. There are a lot of low blows thrown. Myself included. They should all stop, but getting everyone on that page is hard. Good luck though. I appreciate that you and nicole are trying to keep it a fun and learning event. That is the way it should be.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Nicole Stark said:


> That scenario sounds reasonable and is something I would be interested in seeing incorporated into the vehicle test. I'd expect that for obvious reasons that the last part couldn't be executed but the rest I think can be.


Well, on that note, an modified attack on handler from the PSA 1 might work too. Don walks with his dog, I attack from hiding but to the front of the team. He could just drop the leash when I start the action. Good rules for both to pull from, and he did say he didn't care where the testing was, but ariel could set that one up on his property pretty easy.


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Dave Colborn said:


> Lee. There are a lot of low blows thrown. Myself included. They should all stop, but getting everyone on that page is hard. Good luck though. I appreciate that you and nicole are trying to keep it a fun and learning event. That is the way it should be.


This CAN be a blast and something we could all learn a little something from.\\/


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Dave Colborn said:


> Well, on that note, an modified attack on handler from the PSA 1 might work too.


I don't know a lot about PSA but from what little I have seen the scenarios do appear to be a good initial structure to work within. I also would like to see more than just two dogs tested. Why? No reason other than curiosity.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Nicole Stark said:


> I don't know a lot about PSA but from what little I have seen the scenarios do appear to be a good initial structure to work within. I also would like to see more than just two dogs tested. Why? No reason other than curiosity.



I am up for it. I would like to see an airedale trail a man too. Don has control of that, if he's interested. If we can find one social enough, Ariel can handle and I can run.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Dave Colborn said:


> I am up for it. I would like to see an airedale trail a man too. Don has control of that, if he's interested. If we can find one social enough, Ariel can handle and I can run.


That would be interesting to see. Above all, if I had one wish I would like to see his dogs doing what he breeds them to do. I doubt there would be time for that but it would be something I would enjoy watching.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Nicole Stark said:


> That would be interesting to see. Above all, if I had one wish I would like to see his dogs doing what he breeds them to do. I doubt there would be time for that but it would be something I would enjoy watching.


Well, his GF has a camera. Maybe we can see more of his stuff now.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

The date is great Dave, make your arrangements. Just walked in and don't want to hold you up son.

Nicole, on the car jacking scenario, what is this? It is really no different than having the dog on the deck. It all takes place out of the car?? LOL This is what I love about these games. They are so realistic. The dog hasn't been in a car in years and won't stay in the car with the door open. So let's proceed from there. When Ed did this at Marens club, he was in the car with the dog on leash. The carjacker approached the car and Ed wasn'r holding the leash. The carjacker ended up on the ground with the dog trying to eat him. Why is this scenario all outside of the car? Not much different than what we are going to do in the yard.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Nicole, Here is the proposed plan for the house. One change. Titan will be released AFTER Dave and I have started the confrontation. Otherwise, it will construed as something other than protection.

"I will meet you and Ariel out at the far front gate. Ariel and I will walk in so she can video all these viscious trained dogs wanting her to pet them. Just to dispell some comments. Ariel and I will go up on the deck with Titan. You will give us about 15 min and go ahead and drive up to the inside gate. Enter the yard throwing a fit. As you get closer to the deck where Ariel AND MY GIRlFRIEND(of course just another precaution), can video what is happening, I will come out hollering and Titan can come also if he so chooses(he will lead the way more than likely). This is set up this way to show none of the dogs are in any way territorialy aggressive. You and I will engage and see if he runs to the far side of the yard son. If he is taken back for a second or two, we will stay engaged and I will fall down, still hollering at you."


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> The dog hasn't been in a car in years and won't stay in the car with the door open.


Ok, so that's a no. Fair enough. They're your dogs Don. Do what you want. I really don't need to be reminded about what these games are about. But I guarantee that your banter will go further with someone else on those points. That said, I'll leave those details to you guys to figure out. To the comment above, my last sentence still applies.


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## Dale Flyer (Jul 10, 2009)

"It's hard to find an airedale that will protect WITH training, much less with NONE."

Hmmm Should be an interesting day.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> The date is great Dave, make your arrangements. Just walked in and don't want to hold you up son.
> 
> Nicole, on the car jacking scenario, what is this? It is really no different than having the dog on the deck. It all takes place out of the car?? LOL This is what I love about these games. They are so realistic. The dog hasn't been in a car in years and won't stay in the car with the door open. So let's proceed from there. When Ed did this at Marens club, he was in the car with the dog on leash. The carjacker approached the car and Ed wasn'r holding the leash. The carjacker ended up on the ground with the dog trying to eat him. Why is this scenario all outside of the car? Not much different than what we are going to do in the yard.



OK. PSA one car jack. Read the rules. See if that is good for you.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

My dogs are not going to be off leash by any roads. Maybe we should just go out to the boondocks where he can be off leash and Dave can approach and accost me by the car, by the road, by a tree. Just not much of a car jacking scenario if the car has nothing to do with it except the dog getting out of it.

I just got in from work and am going to fix lunch and give the dogs their chicken. Need some suggestions. Be back in a while.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Nicole, Here is the proposed plan for the house. One change. Titan will be released AFTER Dave and I have started the confrontation. Otherwise, it will construed as something other than protection.
> 
> "I will meet you and Ariel out at the far front gate. Ariel and I will walk in so she can video all these viscious trained dogs wanting her to pet them. Just to dispell some comments. Ariel and I will go up on the deck with Titan. You will give us about 15 min and go ahead and drive up to the inside gate. Enter the yard throwing a fit. As you get closer to the deck where Ariel AND MY GIRlFRIEND(of course just another precaution), can video what is happening, I will come out hollering and Titan can come also if he so chooses(he will lead the way more than likely). This is set up this way to show none of the dogs are in any way territorialy aggressive. You and I will engage and see if he runs to the far side of the yard son. If he is taken back for a second or two, we will stay engaged and I will fall down, still hollering at you."


Don. Sounds good. Will your GF release the dog off the porch? When the dog is released you and I are done, and I am going to face the dog fight him and go from there. If you intend for me to fight both of you, say so now.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

I think I recognise that dale. LOL


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> My dogs are not going to be off leash by any roads. Maybe we should just go out to the boondocks where he can be off leash and Dave can approach and accost me by the car, by the road, by a tree. Just not much of a car jacking scenario if the car has nothing to do with it except the dog getting out of it.
> 
> I just got in from work and am going to fix lunch and give the dogs their chicken. Need some suggestions. Be back in a while.



PSA PDC would actually be better. There is no gunfire. Dog is on leash. You hold him in the car on a flat collar or harness with a leash. 

The scenario they were talking about simulates a motorist changing a tire by the side of the road. What I am talking about is a car jack. Just like a PSA PDC should work well. IF you slip the leash, just get out and pick it up.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> I think I recognise that dale. LOL



I think I recognize Tom Rose's field! :lol:


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Dale. You have to post a bio and use your name. Not saying you aren't Dale Flyer, just seems unlikely.






Dale Flyer said:


> "It's hard to find an airedale that will protect WITH training, much less with NONE."
> 
> Hmmm Should be an interesting day.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Don. 

I am getting ready to buy tickets. Send me your address.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Dave Colborn said:


> Don.
> 
> I am getting ready to buy tickets. Send me your address.


*mod edit*

You will need directions which I will send after I eat. The address is almost a half mi from road 200. Give me an hour or so and I will give directions from the valley.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> You will need directions which I will send after I eat. The address is almost a half mi from road 200. Give me an hour or so and I will give directions from the valley.


I map quested it.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Lee H Sternberg said:


> BTW that was a low blow you hit him with about multi marriages on the other thread.


Awww...I apologize if I hurt his feelings or made him cry, how about that? 

Anyways, for the folks who haven't seen the one I suggested in PSA, the reason I suggested that one because if it was like the PDC or PSA 1 carjacking, the dog is stays in the car and can't really run away if they have the option because they are on leash. For the motorist one in the PSA 1, your dog has to make the choice to come out of the car to your aid or the dog can still not engage or come off the bite once they get out of the car when the decoy shows the dog some pressure. In addition, the carjacking is *really* difficult to film or take photos of unless the dog really knows what they are doing since they don't tend to come very far out of the car. Here's what it looks like for those who haven't seen it (the decoy engages in a few words calmly at first with the handler behind the car and then attacks the handler, at which point the dog is supposed to go):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9VPdVt9HDVs

And you don't have to set it identically, just similar. Like dog in bed of truck and has to jump out to handler at the front of the truck or whatever if you prefer. If the dog is going to protect, it should not matter if in the truck or in the bed or wherever.


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Awww...I apologize if I hurt his feelings or made him cry, how about that?
> 
> Anyways, for the folks who haven't seen the one I suggested in PSA, the reason I suggested that one because if it was like the PDC or PSA 1 carjacking, the dog is stays in the car and can't really run away if they have the option because they are on leash. For the motorist one in the PSA 1, your dog has to make the choice to come out of the car to your aid or the dog can still not engage or come off the bite once they get out of the car when the decoy shows the dog some pressure. In addition, the carjacking is *really* difficult to film or take photos of unless the dog really knows what they are doing since they don't tend to come very far out of the car. Here's what it looks like for those who haven't seen it (the decoy engages in a few words calmly at first with the handler behind the car and then attacks the handler, at which point the dog is supposed to go):
> 
> ...



I'm guessing he feels much better now!


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## mike finn (Jan 5, 2011)

Lee H Sternberg said:


> Lets get this on the record with a very simple up or down vote. Who thinks these untrained dogs are going to bite Dave and who doesn't.
> 
> You all know by now what my vote is. Yes they are going to bite the shit out of him.


 I dont think this thing will ever happen. And if it does they will still disagree about the outcome on some sort of technecalities. 
If it does happen, I think he will get bit. maybe not extremely hard but nipped at least. I also think this guy will be able to back the dog down. That is my guess. But Don knows his dogs so I could be very wrong. I am very interested in seeing how this turns out.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Gillian Schuler said:


> I keep wondering why the Airedale is being referred to as an "alternative" breed.
> 
> Apart from being the most fearless and robust breed tested during WWI+ II (especially inWWI) and used as messenger and rescue dog, he is still used as a Diensthund in Germany albeit not so often but still used.
> 
> ...


 
haha we are testing the oldest most used, most proven breed (actual service) - becuase its an unproven alternative breeed - thats funny


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

If the dog bites and needs to be choked off, I will for surely be the first to eat crow.

I think my guess is about the same as Mike Finn's.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

I have seen off breed natural protectors that would certainly bite and take pressure without training. The dogs I am talking about have been bred for those traits though, I do not think that Don's dogs are those type of dogs..


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

has anyone thought of what background music for the soundtrack to this - could we get video of the combatants in a pre and post fight interview, i say get hot models to introduce each of Dons dogs to Dave.


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## Dale Flyer (Jul 10, 2009)

Dave you are right, Dale Fyler is a nom de plume. 
Dale will cease posting. 
Good luck with your test of those big Airedaes


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Dale Flyer said:


> Dave you are right, Dale Fyler is a nom de plume.
> Dale will cease posting.
> Good luck with your test of those big Airedaes


Dude. Be a part of it. I liked the pics you posted!!! Just be you!!!


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Joby Becker said:


> I have seen off breed natural protectors that would certainly bite and take pressure without training. The dogs I am talking about have been bred for those traits though, I do not think that Don's dogs are those type of dogs..


No Joby, I will admit, they have not been selected for excess "ball drive". Or anything as scientifc as that. They have all been selected for nothing more than confidence. They just grab bears and hogs by the face....nothing as fearsome as a man. They stay in the fight to the end and I piece them back together when we get home. You know....4 or 5 broken ribs, punctured stomachs. Getting thrown 8' in the air....just little things you know. I am not sure if it is the pain or the need to dominate that drives them.....but I don't think they will be any different with a person that fights back and seems to be a threat.


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> If the dog bites and needs to be choked off, I will for surely be the first to eat crow.
> 
> I think my guess is about the same as Mike Finn's.


Better start setting the table.\\/


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> but I don't *think* they will be any different with a person that fights back and seems to be a threat.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> No Joby, I will admit, they have not been selected for excess "ball drive". Or anything as scientifc as that. They have all been selected for nothing more than confidence. They just grab bears and hogs by the face....nothing as fearsome as a man. They stay in the fight to the end and I piece them back together when we get home. You know....4 or 5 broken ribs, punctured stomachs. Getting thrown 8' in the air....just little things you know. I am not sure if it is the pain or the need to dominate that drives them.....but I don't think they will be any different with a person that fights back and seems to be a threat.


I have worked TONS (literally if you go by weight) of dogs that were bred to fight animals, including many dogs used as successful catch dogs... that had TONS of issues biting a man...

I think you will finally see what I was trying to tell you about the mental hurdle that prevents most dogs from engaging a man like they do an animal...could be wrong...

Like I said I will be the first to eat crow if it goes like you think it will...should be an eye opener for all involved....either way...

how many dogs you gonna test? 1,2,3, 10? I would hope more than 1 or 2..test out the whole yard...best thing is you do not use your dogs for manwork, so if the dogs are slightly mentally damaged for manwork, it won't set you back for your purposes with them...

how are you preparing them for testing? just curious...a shovel works good


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Joby Becker said:


> I have worked TONS (literally if you go by weight) of dogs that were bred to fight animals, including many dogs used as successful catch dogs... that had TONS of issues biting a man...
> 
> I think you will finally see what I was trying to tell you about the mental hurdle that prevents most dogs from engaging a man like they do an animal...could be wrong...
> 
> ...


I am not doing anything to prepare them for this. What for? I still don't want them to think it is ok to be aggressive with people.

This will prove what if my dogs protect? That my dogs protect. If they don't, it proves they didn't. It doesn't prove they would be good at sport work without a trainer that was up to it. It doesn't prove that someone elses dogs will bite, but, it doesn't prove they won't either. Joby, they really have tons of catch dogs in the Chicago area? I never would have guessed that.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Yes Dave, I think they will bite. Not much different than you *thinking* they won't is there. Oh, but I know these dogs pretty well, you have never seen one.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

C'mon, lighten up folks. One could be forgiven for thinking there is a degree of anxiety being demonstrated over this. Don, if you don't want Dave to come, just say so and we can all go to bed. :smile:


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Dave, take Hwy 99 south to Madera. Take the Cleveland exit take Cleveland ave east to Hwy 145/Yosemite ave. Turn left on Hwy 145 and continue east to Hwy 41. Turn left on Hwy 41 and go north to Rd. 200/O'Neil's Rd. Stay on Rd 200 until you see a large white cross in front of Hillside Baptist Church. When you see the cross, it is about 200yds to Rocky Rd. Make a left on Rocky Rd and go up about 1/4 mile until you come to a hrd left turen. DO NOT MAKE THE LEFT TURN! That is my gate right in front of you. Has a faded yellow No Trespassing/ Keep Out sign on each side of the gate. That is where I will meet you. No one has ever found it using map quest.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Yes Dave, I think they will bite. Not much different than you *thinking* they won't is there. Oh, but I know these dogs pretty well, you have never seen one.



No difference at all until we are done. Neither one of us is on the fence though. That's a good thing.


I have been giving you a bunch of shit Don off and on and it was in the interest of doing this. At this point I believe it'll get done with no more bullshit. Hopefully we can do some training with a couple on or off camera after the testing is done. Now that this is a sure deal (I have tickets) I want to make the most of it. If you care to do it, Don, you have two folks coming that are willing to give an honest opinion. If you don't wish to do that for all the shit I've given you, I understand.

That was me being as humble as I am going to be.


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## Ariel Peldunas (Oct 18, 2008)

Dave Colborn said:


> No difference at all until we are done. Neither one of us is on the fence though. That's a good thing.
> 
> 
> I have been giving you a bunch of shit Don off and on and it was in the interest of doing this. At this point I believe it'll get done with no more bullshit. Hopefully we can do some training with a couple on or off camera after the testing is done. Now that this is a sure deal (I have tickets) I want to make the most of it. If you care to do it, Don, you have two folks coming that are willing to give an honest opinion. If you don't wish to do that for all the shit I've given you, I understand.
> ...


I'd certainly like to make the most of this trip, as well. It's certainly an expensive adventure for the sake of some people feeling the need to prove they are going to put up rather than shut up. It would be nice to actually have something productive come out of it. I know I'll at least appreciate watching the test, but maybe if we could all learn something if we could swallow some of our pride.


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