# Age for picking working prospect puppies



## Julie Ann Alvarez (Aug 4, 2007)

I was reading the Long Woods Board (thanks to Jeff of reminding me of that board). They have an article about picking Schutzhund puppy prospects.

I sent it to my club list. Which started a discussion which has 2 very different POV. That of the breeders and that of the buyers. 

I would like the breeders and buyers to both chime in.

What age do you do your picks and why? 

What age do you send out or bring home your puppies? 

Julie


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Julie Ann Alvarez said:


> I was reading the Long Woods Board (thanks to Jeff of reminding me of that board). They have an article about picking Schutzhund puppy prospects.
> 
> I sent it to my club list. Which started a discussion which has 2 very different POV. That of the breeders and that of the buyers.
> 
> ...


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Julie Ann Alvarez said:


> What age do you do your picks and why?
> * In a perfect world, start evaluating / watching the litter at three weeks, once or twice a week.*
> 
> What age do you send out or bring home your puppies?
> ...


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## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

If my own litter than I watch all the time but 5 wks is the first "big test" that give me a really good idea as to how things are going and usually it is right on. I like a dog to come in at 7-8wks.

t


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I'd have to say 7-8 weeks. I'd not get one before here even if I wanted.

I had luck in my last dog, a Briard, in that I saw him from the first day on and knew he was the fastet to the teat. 

I could go each day and I put the whole litter through various tests I thought out - going from one ground to another, acoustics such as the barbecue bellows, blowing on empty beer bottles, throwing bones into the litter and watching who came out the winner.

This dog was admired by many a working GSD breeder such as Leipheimer Moor, etc. and Fritz Biehler commended us both at a seminar.

I have since bought two GSDS and I don't think any one would commend us. The dogs are ok but I'm still working out what make these two tick!! I got them both at 7-8 weeks old.

On the other hand, I imported a Landseer from England at 12 weeks, and this, apart from his "Stuff you, I know where I stand" attidude, was a great dog but I would not recommend 12 weeks. The pup is fairly convinced of his qualities and can put a first time owner in his place if he doesn't watch.


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

In our own litters we can see character developments which indicates clearly the character when adult. Definatly choosing happens at 7 wks when the puppy are picked up. We choose definate at the day before the other pups are picked, but usually stay with the (unofficial) pick we made at 5 wks


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Julie Ann Alvarez said:


> I was reading the Long Woods Board (thanks to Jeff of reminding me of that board). They have an article about picking Schutzhund puppy prospects.
> 
> I sent it to my club list. Which started a discussion which has 2 very different POV. That of the breeders and that of the buyers.
> 
> ...


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## Mike Di Rago (Jan 9, 2009)

Julie,
As far as selection. I think that starting at 8 weeks gives a good indication.
Here is a link I think gives a good idea. It is from the Czech university of life science and the study was ''Testing GSDs to assess chances of certification in police''
.
http://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...serid=10&md5=b762f20df97ddc0b1f38399d6de4d770

Mike


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## Anna Kasho (Jan 16, 2008)

If I had the choice, I'd like to get a puppy at 6 weeks - it would give me more of a window to imprint basic behaviors I would want them to fall back on later as an adult. I think some foundation behaviors can be learned by the pup at a very early age, and will be better retained that way.

However, with the current shipping regulations, I got my mals as pups at about 8 weeks old, and it's worked out very well. They did come with more pre-set behaviors, and I do wish I had a little more time to teach them stuff - but no problems either way.

I have heard arguments for both sides, that keeping the pups longer gives the breeder more time to evaluate the litter and each pup, and teaches pups social skills and manners - and that keeping the pups in a pack makes them more doggy and less people oriented, and inhibits drives in the weaker pups.

Interestingly enough, I read an older dog book from like the 50's or 60's that recommended taking pups as soon as weaned, at 5 weeks, for the optimal bond to people. I don't remember what the reasoning behind that statement might have been. I would have to find that book again and see.


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

Mike Di Rago said:


> Julie,
> Here is a link I think gives a good idea. It is from the Czech university of life science and the study was ''Testing GSDs to assess chances of certification in police''
> .
> http://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...serid=10&md5=b762f20df97ddc0b1f38399d6de4d770
> ...


 You have to pay to read it.


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## Mike Di Rago (Jan 9, 2009)

Kristen,
I didn't when i got it if you are interrested let me know i'll send you a copy.
Mike


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

I think it might be a little 'over my head.' I was lost at the formulas.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

I watch a litter from the day it's born. Around 4-5 weeks I usually have a favorite or two, and at 7-8 weeks (when I let them go to their new homes) 99% of the time that pup is still my favorite, and the one I keep. Once in awhile I will have a pup who is a 'sleeper', at 4-5 weeks they aren't showing me anything negative (scared of things, overly submissive, etc) but they aren't really showing me a lot of positives either. They are "just there" But at 7-8 weeks they have woken up and are showing me what I want to see. I've kept a few of those pups also. And this is one reason I do like to wait to make a pick until the 7-8 week mark, because I might have overlooked that "sleeper" who turned out to be a super adult if I'd picked at 5-6 weeks.

As far as going to homes, I usually send them off between 7-8 weeks. If someone wants a pup earlier I'll discuss it with them on a case by case basis, but it will depend on why they want the pup earlier, what their experience is raising pups, etc. Some people have some very valid reasons why they want them younger, but if the reason is "well I read in a book that ..." forget it. 

So much of it depends on what the breeder is doing with the pups though. If the breeder isn't doing anything with them, they are just being raised in a kennel with only their food dishes and littermates to keep them occupied, then get them out of there early. I saw a litter recently at about 5 weeks who had just been raised in the whelping box, with very limited time out of it, no toys in there, etc. Not very impressive pups. However, once the breeder moved them into a larger pen, started interacting with them more, gave them toys and other things to play on/with/etc, started taking them outside for extended periods of time, etc by 8 weeks they looked like a very nice litter of pups.


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

In December 2007, president Bush signed into law as a means to rapid the advancement of science, that full texts of the articles will be publicly available and searchable online in PubMed Central and other participating depositories no later than 12 months after publication in a journal.

Here's an alternate link to the study mentioned...

Testing German shepherd puppies to assess their chances of certification

and another interesting study...

Evaluation of the Campbell test and the influence of age, sex, breed, and coat color on puppy behavioral responses


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

I have mine picked at about 4 weeks and never change my mind because they goe through phases at times but will always revert to what they were born with when under stress. I pick them before they have had a lot of exposure to the environment. At eight weeks they may all appear to be the same but they are not but the differences may be slight.


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## Alex Corral (Jul 10, 2007)

Mike, Kadi and Don, have you guys ever kept pups from your litter past... say 10-12 weeks for more evaluation? And did you notice any other changes than from they were 6-8 weeks? What is the reason most info says to keep pups til at least 7 weeks? Is that for pet dogs, IE the whole bite inhibition, etc etc. Does not matter as much for working, sport dogs?

Thanks,
Alex


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

here in HOlland it is required by law puppies has to stay with the litter/mother till 7 wks.
I have my females as long as possible with the litter, I start weaning around 4 wks and from 5-5.5 wks mum is only in the evenings/night with the pups.

I have females who correct and females who don't correct (biteinhibition) and from both the puppies bite without a problem (see puppy section for vids of my current litters). Litters are now 6.2 and 6.5 wks and the females were till yesterday at night with the pups....


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Alex Corral said:


> Mike, Kadi and Don, have you guys ever kept pups from your litter past... say 10-12 weeks for more evaluation? And did you notice any other changes than from they were 6-8 weeks? What is the reason most info says to keep pups til at least 7 weeks? Is that for pet dogs, IE the whole bite inhibition, etc etc. Does not matter as much for working, sport dogs?
> 
> Thanks,
> Alex


I keep a few puppies from every litter back until they are around 14 months old. There are some litters who mature faster or slower than average, but usually the puppy that I like the best at 4-5 weeks old is the puppy that I like the best at 7-8 weeks, and also usually the puppy that I like the best at 10-12 weeks. Of course there are many factors that determine the way a puppy matures and develops. I have kept litters with their mothers until 8 weeks of age in the past. Now I wean them very early and separate them from each other much sooner than I used to do. Most breeders keep litters together with the mother due to convience and lack of kennel space. It is much easier to keep them all together for 8 weeks and then sell them. I separate them early before they begin to fight with each and before any of them get pushed around really badly or become submissive. Every breeder has their own way of raising puppies and I am not trying to imply that one method is better than the next method, I am only telling you what we do to help us pick the puppies that we want to keep in our program for future adult green dog sales.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

mike suttle said:


> I am only telling you what we do to help us pick the puppies that we want to keep in our program for future adult green dog sales.


Which is what most of the PSD trainers I know are looking for.

DFrost


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

With litters I've breed, I'm holding them as soon as the sac is off. I was taught to do a structural eval when they are wet. Every day I hold each one individually for a few minutes and I start introducing them to different parts of the house about 3 weeks--i.e. when all senses are available to them. 5 1/2 weeks after their first shot, we start taking them outside to potty and explore. I do what amounts to what is described as the neuro stuff. Three weeks is my first big assessment. I do another one again at 5 weeks and the final is at 7 weeks when I test them on some type of stock. I start feeding them about 3-31/2 weeks and don't start taking mom away for extended periods until about 5 1/2 weeks. With this formula whether I'm breeding or buying, I've never been wrong about that puppy growing into an adult that I like for whatever purpose. By 5 weeks in my litters, I've known who my personal pick is. Pet homes get them about 10 weeks and they are leash and crate broke and sleep through the night. If I had a trainer that wanted them at 7 weeks which is when I want mine, I'd let them go that early.

Terrasita


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

A pretty gray area in my opinion, I don't have an age-rule for deciding. Whatever stage along the way separates them from my needs. A lot of things are clearly seen very early, but I've experienced dramatic changes (better or worse) very late.

Oftentimes, I've witheld dogs to 4 months or 8 to 12 months, and whether or not I retain it, becomes a matter of what the dog can offer in relationship to the other dogs I have. That's not to say it's necessarily unworthy as an addition, as what it offers may just be "redundant".

Not only does this allow me a significant time period to analyze first-hand how a new breeding has produced, but also reveals how much or how little, the impact of the environment I've provided has affected them.

As a buyer of a pup, I'd be quite happy to have 'em at 5 weeks, and a full 8 is wonderful with the appropriate breeder. As a seller, I've occasionally let them go at 7 weeks, but usually 8.

But overall, you may have roughly equal fortune between buying pups vs. buying adults. The big picture shouldn't be lost through the focus of what time to wean or age to select. No magical results will come of that alone.


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## Julie Ann Alvarez (Aug 4, 2007)

Thanks everyone. I was curious. Many of the buyers "test" mandate a specific age. Personally I think for me it would depend on the litter and if I could evaluate the litter (more than once if needed). 

Being close to the breeder makes it much easier. I have seen some pups sent up from very reputable working kennels that were either super ugly or flawed with poor nerve. I would probably only buy from a breeder I know personally regardless of the guarantee. I would also try to get a local SchH club TD to help me with my pick and pay him/her if necessary. 

With my AB Lasher we brought him home at 5 weeks. He was weaned and a terror. My husband picked him out. My puppy test for him was putting in the bathtub (he was covered in shit & lived on a wild boar farm). He played tug while being sprayed with a hose. I really liked that and will always compare pups to that.

With Havok I wasn't as sure. There were 3 very nice pups that I was drawn to, they had equal drive & grips on the rag but the others were too independant for me). I couldn't bring him home anyway because we were going on vacation. He was 9 weeks when he actually came to live with us. He was huge like a bear cub. I never had that cute puppy stage with him. I did put him in the bathtub and did the same test. Hose in the face and he was fighting the water, tugging the wash rag and not bugged at all.

With one of my AB pups. A friend and I tested an entire litter away from home with the Vollard test. We each kept a pup. By the time my female had her first heat cycle she got very weird and started showing poor nerve. She eventually went back to the breeder. The test did not prove anything, but I managed to waste an entire day playing with 8 week old pups.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Julie Ann Alvarez said:


> ...Many of the buyers "test" mandate a specific age. Personally I think for me it would depend on the litter and if I could evaluate the litter (more than once if needed). .


I 100% agree with you on this statement. More than once IS the right answer. As the puppy develops, you see different sides of its genetics. I have seen what could be a top pick one day, change to the 2 or 3 position w/in a week. Biggest or first born is nothing in my book. 

I know of breeders whose puppy yards are full of items to taste, climb, and crawl into...these things and others help bring the breeding out early...IMO!:-k


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## Mike Di Rago (Jan 9, 2009)

I have never been a breeder and the only experience I have is with the puppy rearing program our force had.
From what I have seen in the past, I think the longer you have the better of course, but when comparing pups from the same litter I noticed that the imprinting phase was very important. Many pups either developed well or failed to do so regardless of how we evaluated them at 8 weeks coming from the breeder. This is why I believe in a structured imprinting phase ( you know the till 16 weeks) not just ''take them everywhere'' but actually have a plan according to what you will end up doing with your dog.
This is why I think the 8 weeks is a good period to get them home as they are ready to start pretty well on everything.
Mike


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Alex Corral said:


> Mike, Kadi and Don, have you guys ever kept pups from your litter past... say 10-12 weeks for more evaluation? And did you notice any other changes than from they were 6-8 weeks? What is the reason most info says to keep pups til at least 7 weeks? Is that for pet dogs, IE the whole bite inhibition, etc etc. Does not matter as much for working, sport dogs?
> 
> Thanks,
> Alex


I keep something from most of my litters, sometimes just to raise up and really see what the litter produced (first hand experience is better than long distance reports from a buyer). Sometimes I hold back a couple of pups to raise up and then place one later, it just depends. Usually though the pup I like at an early age is the pup I like later in life. Some lines are a little slower to mature then others, and sometimes pups just go weird at teething and never really come out of it, but overall what I've seen as a pup is what I see as an adult in terms of structure and nerve. The only thing I've seen change is drive, I've seen some crazy pups mature to be average at best drive wise, and some pretty laid back pups mature to be very high drive adults. That's when knowing your lines really comes into play.


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## kristin tresidder (Oct 23, 2008)

Howard Gaines III said:


> More than once IS the right answer. As the puppy develops, you see different sides of its genetics. I have seen what could be a top pick one day, change to the 2 or 3 position w/in a week.


i have seen this too - in my own two litters, and in watching many others develop over the last 9 years. it always amazes me when a breeder picks a pup the day it's born, and somehow, that pup stays "first pick" ever after. they must have better eyes than i do...



Howard Gaines III said:


> I know of breeders whose puppy yards are full of items to taste, climb, and crawl into...these things and others help bring the breeding out early...IMO!:-k


 
we used pup-sized obstacles in a 10x30 pen that the pups had free range over - platforms, mini-a-frames, a 6' long dark tunnel (think ditch drainage) and so on. it was really interesting to watch who would master the obstacles first, who would be hesitant on them, which pups played "king of the hill" keeping everyone off of their newly won high ground, who would climb right back up if they fell off, and so on... of course, they all get there eventually, but i like to see who gets there first, and continues to improve as they age.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Kristin for my upcoming BOuvier litter, I plan on using play sand, tires, and tree branches in a play area. The san is something easy to dig in and still keeps them clean, the tires are safe to climb on, and the tree branches they can chew on and explore with their mouth. The hardest thing is to keep the fecal matter off or out of stuff. And lots of metal pans and plates!!!!


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Alex, I don't breed for bitework per se, but I can see where weaning the mom early would be beneficial. For years I have kept one female and one male out of every new cross but I never change my mind even though they go through stages where I find myself second guessing. I don't change because I have found that first impressions are based on the dog and not the environment. I don't want to see what any training or exposure the the environment produces. I want to see what the dogs produce. I pick about 4 weeks give or take a couple of days either way but is when I see them starting to venture out of the whelping box. I don't handle the pups to socialize(condition) them until after I have evaluated them as I want as close to the raw material as possible. The most confident come right to me anyway because they have heard my voice. Maybe a few more will come to me in a day or two or three and so on. They do have to come to me as I won't go to them. I have a problem with waiting till they are 7 or 8 weeks because if find this is where I want to second guess because they are all so much alike it is hard to say they are not all equal....but I know they are not. The first ones and the most confident will always be just that....but now it isn't so apparent at 8 weeks. The small differences aren't really critical in many cases but, in a dog to be used in a competative venue, it does make a difference. I just took a trainer from MD to the airport this morning. He called a few weeks ago and told me he wanted a dog to do competative obedience with and he wanted one that could get perfect or near perfect scores. I told him at the time I had a 4 week old that could do it. He arrived Tuesday and I brought his pup in the house for the first time. Slick floors and all his feet were moving when I set him down with his tail stright up. Next I brought the closest to him and he froze for about 30 seconds and then started around checking things out but, tail was only half way up. Each was pup took progressively longer to adapt. All four of these pups would appear the same in the yard. Yesterday we took the top two to the lake for their first water experience. Walked them out to where they couldn't touch and let them go. Both did grat for a first swimm the the second's tail was down for the first 2 15 yard laps. Third lap it was up. The first choice pups tail never went down. The difference between first and second in competition. The two swim pictures are the #1 pup(7 weeks old). The two pups running are coming down a slope that is not to much off of a 45 degree angle. They were 5 1/2 weeks then.


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## Alex Corral (Jul 10, 2007)

Thanks for that explanation Don! Makes it much easier for a newbie like me to understand. :-D


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