# Area/Building searches w/ a laser pointer



## John-Ashley Hill (Jan 5, 2011)

Anyone have any experience with doing area/building searches with a laser pointer as a way to direct the dog to clear certain areas of a yard, building, etc. I have recently heard about this being done and wanted to know anyones thoughts on it.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

John-Ashley Hill said:


> Anyone have any experience with doing area/building searches with a laser pointer as a way to direct the dog to clear certain areas of a yard, building, etc. I have recently heard about this being done and wanted to know anyones thoughts on it.



Doesn't make sense to me. Generally a dog that chases a laser is headed for OCD. I think it would be to much of a distraction. 
Dogs gets a command to search then this "Obsession" pops up in front of it. :-k Not so much!


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## John-Ashley Hill (Jan 5, 2011)

The only thing I was thinking is that it could come in handy after the dog performs his search pattern to direct him to areas that he missed or that you weren't sure that he cleared that well. Then after he was dont you could use the laser to run him into a deep corner that he didnt clear or bushes etc. I understand the distraction if hes focused on it during the whole search. But sometimes when Renzo misses an area I cant always get him to understand where exaclty I'm wanting him to go with verbal/ hand commands. I would think that with a laser pointer you could get him to the exact area and while I have never tried this I would think that no matter how into chasing the laser Renzo was if I could use it to literally run him smack into a hiding suspect he would ditch the laser for a chance at a live bite( which he will take over any other game we play) I could be wrong,but used in this specific way it seems like it might be able to solve the problem of me being able to communicate exaclty where I want him to go if I feel he has missed an area. If not any ideas of how to improve on that? He knows hand signals and I can tell him "check back" and he will double back and recheck an area but if he didnt deep clear a corner when he "checks back" he just runs past it again or any other area that he misses or doesnt check well enough to satisfy me.


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## Pete Stevens (Dec 16, 2010)

We do it with our flashlights. Shine the light and give the search command. It works better well too.We don't leave the light on, just let the dog see where you want them to go. There was an article in Police K9 magazine about the laser pointer a couple of issues ago. See if you can get your hands on a copy. I can see a dog going nutty for the laser but if you start out with it in training, like having a decoy in the room where you pointed the laser to the threshold of the door so when he chases the laser, he sees the bad guy and then gets the idea of the game. Rinse, wash, repeat.


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Pete Stevens said:


> We do it with our flashlights. Shine the light and give the search command. It works better well too.We don't leave the light on, just let the dog see where you want them to go. There was an article in Police K9 magazine about the laser pointer a couple of issues ago. See if you can get your hands on a copy. I can see a dog going nutty for the laser but if you start out with it in training, like having a decoy in the room where you pointed the laser to the threshold of the door so when he chases the laser, he sees the bad guy and then gets the idea of the game. Rinse, wash, repeat.


I use the flashlight too and just pair it with a "check" command . Both my dogs caught on to it pretty quick . After awhile I didn't have to say anything most of the time .


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

I just incorporated the flashlight into my training searches inside a building . From cover if I saw my dog going towards a door to enter and search the room I would shine my light on the door just before he entered and said "check" when he entered "Good boy" . As he caught on I then started choosing areas doors(rooms) I wanted checked with the light . When they caught on to that I gradually shortened the amount of time I kept the light on to just a quick flash of the area I wanted checked . Then I worked it into outdoor searches and to vehicles I wanted checked as I stayed behind cover .


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Seriously ? Why have a dog ? Just shine your stupid flashlight in the corner. No need for a dog if you have a flashlight. 

This doesn't seem like brain surgery to me. 

I guess you could blind the guy hiding in the bushes that your dog missed and then you could get him. Or, you could train your dog to search properly.


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

John-Ashley Hill said:


> The only thing I was thinking is that it could come in handy after the dog performs his search pattern to direct him to areas that he missed or that you weren't sure that he cleared that well. Then after he was dont you could use the laser to run him into a deep corner that he didnt clear or bushes etc. I understand the distraction if hes focused on it during the whole search. But sometimes when Renzo misses an area I cant always get him to understand where exaclty I'm wanting him to go with verbal/ hand commands. I would think that with a laser pointer you could get him to the exact area and while I have never tried this I would think that no matter how into chasing the laser Renzo was if I could use it to literally run him smack into a hiding suspect he would ditch the laser for a chance at a live bite( which he will take over any other game we play) I could be wrong,but used in this specific way it seems like it might be able to solve the problem of me being able to communicate exaclty where I want him to go if I feel he has missed an area. If not any ideas of how to improve on that? He knows hand signals and I can tell him "check back" and he will double back and recheck an area but if he didnt deep clear a corner when he "checks back" he just runs past it again or any other area that he misses or doesnt check well enough to satisfy me.



I'm guilty of skimming this discussion . Jeff is right to a certain degree . I wouldn't be using the laser or flashlight as a tool to correct a situation where the dog missed or didn't check an area good enough . I would go back to the old fashion way of training a K9 to search correctly . For me it's in training and if my dog skipped an area he should have searched I calmly make the dog check that area . 

For instance if I'm checking a building and we are searching a long hallway with several doors and rooms on both sides , since I started his training on lead making him check each closed door or room with open door starting with the nearest one and clear in succession and have moved on to off lead searching where he shows he knows to check in the same order as I watch from cover , if he skips a room I calmy go get him and either go back on lead or by his collar and make him check(sniff) the closed door or check(search) the open room . If this doesn't help and his searching gets more inconsistant I'll go back on lead and start from the beginning . 

Using a light IMO to direct a dog to search a specific area is a good option to have . But using that light to correct an inconsistant search pattern isn't the best way to handle it .


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## Jerry Cudahy (Feb 18, 2010)

Dr. Andre Vandergeten is a pioneer in the use of Laser Beams in Detection Dog Training.

Agencies worldwide are now useing the Laser Beam Method to train dogs.


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## Pete Stevens (Dec 16, 2010)

Jeff- It isn't brain surgery but I don't know if you have ever cleared a building with a dog. Its not just release the pup and go home. There is a little more to it. Obviously, dogs use air current to find the odor of anyone inside. Odor travels inside buildings because of the vacuum effect of any holes leading to the outside have. So if the bad guy happens to be in a spot were the air current is pushing the scent cone of his odor away from anywhere the dog can his nose, the dog may not find him. I've been in a dark building search training scenario and had the dog alert on a room a couple of doors down from my location. The handler and the entry team will have to pass my location to get to the location where the dog is barking, clearing each area of threat as the work towards the alert location. Was the dog wrong? No, that was the spot where my odor was after traveing with the air movement. What if the dog doesn't locate any odor? It still has to be cleared by people. The handler is supposed to be the brains of the operation so we, the part of the team with thumbs, must go in and "clear to the corners". By being able to direct the dog into a room or area from a position of cover and letting them focus on the spot, they may get into the scent cone. If he does locate odor, great. If not, keep clearing. I've done hundreds, if not thousands of building searches with a dog. Each has their own set of challenges.

If a suspect is located you have another use of force option, the dog, at your disposal. If he gives up, really great. If he wants to disregard your verbal warnings, which are required by case law in most circumstances, and gets bit, go get a cup of coffeee and settle in for the mountains of paperwork.


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## John-Ashley Hill (Jan 5, 2011)

I agree, Jim, that a good search pattern should be the back bone of doing building searches. However, to be honest I don't get a chance to train him in this area as much as I'd like between trying to train on all the different tasks that Renzo performs as well as assisting narcotics, going to serve warrants, interdiction, and assisting anybody that calls for a dog, I am constantly trying to walk the line between training and utilization. Renzo does a pretty good search but is far from imperfect,so in a real life situation it would be useful but I understand the point about not relying on it but just using it as one option in your bag of tools.
Don't know about the buildings in stupid San Antonio there Jeff but our here in Ga have just more than four corners where you could just hit each one with your light, adjacent doorways and rooms, furniture, counter tops, and all kinds of other crazy stuff. If I was doing a search for fun or training I would go in and correct him but those pesky bad guys( who sometimes have guns )tend to keep me behind cover.


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## Rick Cadez Jr. (Dec 1, 2009)

During Building Searches we have used the flashlight to direct the K9 to " check " certain doors or areas also. It has been my experiance that the K9 picks up on the flashlight direction very quickly. I know during initial dark building search training the flashlight direction worked just as good as me walking right up to the door and pointing to it for the K9 to " check ".


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

John-Ashley Hill said:


> I agree, Jim, that a good search pattern should be the back bone of doing building searches. However, to be honest I don't get a chance to train him in this area as much as I'd like between trying to train on all the different tasks that Renzo performs as well as assisting narcotics, going to serve warrants, interdiction, and assisting anybody that calls for a dog, I am constantly trying to walk the line between training and utilization. Renzo does a pretty good search but is far from imperfect,so in a real life situation it would be useful but I understand the point about not relying on it but just using it as one option in your bag of tools.
> Don't know about the buildings in stupid San Antonio there Jeff but our here in Ga have just more than four corners where you could just hit each one with your light, adjacent doorways and rooms, furniture, counter tops, and all kinds of other crazy stuff. If I was doing a search for fun or training I would go in and correct him but those pesky bad guys( who sometimes have guns )tend to keep me behind cover.


John , we all have those multiple reponsibilities . I work a Patrol/Narc detection dog . On top of that I'm 1 of 4 SWAT K9's on our unit . An average shift for me is Buildings searches , a track or 2 , pick ups for wanted parties at houses , narc search of a vehicle , maybe of a house on a Wt or upon permission . Throw in the occassional article search , perimeter on high risk quick entry SWAT Wts. or a slow search in gas looking for a barricaded suspect and my plate is pretty full . I did the exact same thing with my first K9 too . 

This Feb. I have to prepare for my annual USPCA Narc. Detector Cert. on top of that I have 2 SWAT training days , also a day at the range shooting with the K9 , my monthly qualifications (OB , Bitework showing an out and recall) along with all of the other misc. things I have to train for in order to keep my K9 proficient . 

Obviously you have to triage in order of importance what you train for . 
For me and the things my K9 and I do it's important to have a good foundation in searching and using a flashlight as a crutch to make up for for deficiancies in my K9s searching pattern or behavior is not the best way to go .


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## Jim Duncan (Jan 19, 2009)

I have started using the laser to do directed searches with my dog in buildings and it is sweet. We are incorporating this into our training with our SWAT team. The flashlight is ok, but can really give away your position and I feel you lose a tactical advantage. I know special forces teams that use this laser technique with tremendous success. They can deploy their dogs at distances of several hundred yards to clear woods or houses. When you see it work in that capacity it is really terrific.

My dog is also trained on directed searches with hand and verbal signals. I can point to a door that he may have missed and have him check it before proceeding down a long hallway. With our SWAT team our primary role is covert clearing and we have traditionally done that on long line. I am going to add the directed off lead covert searches with laser and hand sgnals to our tool bag this week. The dogs role is to locate a hidden suspect and then is called back and the room is gassed and/or the team moves in. 

Jeff, you are missing quite a bit of what is done with dogs in LEO and Special forces teams, some may think it is almost rocket science. It would really open your eyes to see these guys with more control, focus and ability on their dogs than most National level Ring, Mondio or SchH competitors. Doing things that most people thought would be impossible. The laser training is very effective and very practical, IMHO.

Jim


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Jim Duncan said:


> I have started using the laser to do directed searches with my dog in buildings and it is sweet. We are incorporating this into our training with our SWAT team. The flashlight is ok, but can really give away your position and I feel you lose a tactical advantage. I know special forces teams that use this laser technique with tremendous success. They can deploy their dogs at distances of several hundred yards to clear woods or houses. When you see it work in that capacity it is really terrific.
> 
> My dog is also trained on directed searches with hand and verbal signals. I can point to a door that he may have missed and have him check it before proceeding down a long hallway. With our SWAT team our primary role is covert clearing and we have traditionally done that on long line. I am going to add the directed off lead covert searches with laser and hand sgnals to our tool bag this week. The dogs role is to locate a hidden suspect and then is called back and the room is gassed and/or the team moves in.
> 
> ...


I just saw this thread for the first time.
I will say that I have started using a laser to direct the dog to search areas from a long and safe distance away and it is working great. It can be used to direct him to search a suspisious car in a parking lot from 100 yards away, or even a particular building in a group of houses and buildings from a long distance for example. The laser is a great way to direct the dog past anything that you dont want him to waste time searching, and direct him to a starting point where he needs to begin his search. This can be a useful tool. I know some groups who are using this with great success downrange. This is done in the dark obviously, it is almost impossible to get the dog to work with a laser in daylight conditions.


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## Jim Duncan (Jan 19, 2009)

Hey Mike,
You are correct it is a very effective tool at night. It can be used indoors in the day time and green lasers are brighter than red. Outdoors in the daytime it is not very useful. I have used it with my dog for a while, just got the green light to add it to our SWAT training.

Jim


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

There is, without question, a tactical application for laser directed searches. One must also be conscious of laser sights on weapons and be ready to recall or command a dog to stay if the sights are activated. 

DFrost


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## Jim Duncan (Jan 19, 2009)

Hey David,
You are absolutely correct. The first thing I did was confirm that our SWAT team does not use Laser activated sights. Eight guys with Lasers downrage would certainly confuse the dog. The other option would have been to go to a different color, like green to distinguish it from the team if they are using red. I also use an Ecollar on my dog and the page / beep function serves as a recall. If I beep the collar the dog will return, this gives me the abilty to recall him down long hallways or in the woods with out giving away my position. 

One way the laser can be used with weapons mounted systems is that team members can move up and they can direct the dog, leaving the handler behind cover. This gives guys with a better view the ability to guide the dog, you can move and communicate having the dog still searching ahead of the team. This takes a very coordinated team and a lot of training. Then you can get really sophisicated with advanced communications on the dog, cameras etc. Naturally, that stuff is reserved for the big dollar teams, not our PD. 

Jim


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

I recently saw this done with a remote control helicopter. The small helicopter would hover over the area the dog was to search. Done during the day..I am sure it has its uses.


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## Jim Duncan (Jan 19, 2009)

will fernandez said:


> I recently saw this done with a remote control helicopter. The small helicopter would hover over the area the dog was to search. Done during the day..I am sure it has its uses.


 Pretty cool, I bet I can get my Sgt to spring for a remote control car, helicopter might be too fancy. 

I like the idea, thinking outside the box. Now, how do I incorporate that and who flies the helicopter? 


Jim


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

It was pretty neat, actually. They were able to do it from about 100 yards out. 
We got a bunch a guys on the dept that love to fly RC planes and copters-I am seriously thinking about hitting them up on some info just to see if I could do it.


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Jerry Cudahy said:


> Dr. Andre Vandergeten is a pioneer in the use of Laser Beams in Detection Dog Training.
> 
> Agencies worldwide are now useing the Laser Beam Method to train dogs.


 
http://video.yahoo.com/watch/8143120/21589195


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## Jim Duncan (Jan 19, 2009)

Chris,
We don't use it like that. Funny video.

Jim


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Id love to see a video of using the laser as you guys are saying. Id also like to see a video of a dog being worked with a radio on his back or neck. I goofed around with it but never put in the time needed, it looked like it could be fun. Made a little progress for the amount of time I put into it. 
 Have any of you used ever tried to use a laser for the dog to be able to pick the proper person to target for a bite? I think it should be able to be done but never put any time into it. 
As far as the camera on a dogs back, that is something else I would like to see a video of. I mean the actual video from the dogs back. That’s got to be one stabilized camera or something. I tried goofing around with it with a helmet cam once and it was a mess. Youtube has a lot of stuff but I cant find everything.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: It would really open your eyes to see these guys with more control, focus and ability on their dogs than most National level Ring, Mondio or SchH competitors.

Love to see that. I never seen anything even close to what you are talking about. Always willing to watch, just put up a link, or tell me where to go. 

I occasionally have seen an individuals dog that had that kind of control, but never in the numbers you are talking about.


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## Jim Duncan (Jan 19, 2009)

Jeff,
I assure you these guys and their dogs are out there. You might be able to see some of them at Mike's Suttle's place training occasionally. I know many of them think very highly of him. The guys I am referring to are very high end, very skilled and have great dogs. They are very impressive to say the least. I know I am impressed with them, their dogs and their training every time I see them. 

Jim


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I am not saying that they are not out there, but if they are that good, then someone has video. LOL


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Jim Duncan said:


> Jeff,
> I assure you these guys and their dogs are out there. You might be able to see some of them at Mike's Suttle's place training occasionally. I know many of them think very highly of him. The guys I am referring to are very high end, very skilled and have great dogs. They are very impressive to say the least. I know I am impressed with them, their dogs and their training every time I see them.
> 
> Jim


There are definately guys here from time to time training with us from some pretty high end groups who have super nice dogs, very good trainers working with them, and very good control on the dogs. Unfortunately public videos of these guys and their training is not allowed, and when they are training here most times the general public is also not allowed here. I know that sounds like a cheasy way out, but it is true. Im not saying they have more control over their dogs that the top sports people, but im saying they do shit with their dogs that is very difficult and yet still they maintain 100% off leash control out to a couple hundred yards and beyond in some cases.
I am well aware of the general steriotype that goes with most police K-9 and military working dog trainers, handlers, and dogs. But trust me, their are some VERY good ones out there. I have had the chance to be involved with some of their training, the selection of some of their dogs, and even the selection of one of their trainers, so I can tell you that in my honest opinion some of these are very good.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I will wait till I see this stuff. I have seen many great trainers work, and what their dogs can do. I have almost always been disappointed upon seeing "super secret magic dogs" trained by military or PD's. 

Mike, I know how bad a trainer you really are, so I am sure you are impressed. LOL Had to bust your balls on that one. Having off leash control at a couple hundred yards is child's play.

There is nothing that a dog can do that I have not seen, or trained is some fashion or the other. Super secret is goofy. We all know the trainers that they are learning from. : )

A well trained dog should not need to learn to follow a laser. At best it is a crutch.


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> A well trained dog should not need to learn to follow a laser. At best it is a crutch.


 For real? How is one more special ability for the dog to do its' job a crutch? I know that you poo poo a lot of things, and most times rightly so but, Surely even you can see the benefit to this exercise.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Why is the dog not searching that area ? They can hear heart beats from like 12 feet away through a wall, have noses 25,000 times better than ours, but you need a laser to show the dog where to work ??

Cops have to work within a system. I know that, and they know that, and I am sure that all training has to be documented, and the officer paid for, and there are budget concerns and all that. I feel that, trust me. I do a stupid sport and it crushes me financially, and logistically. Then, as an added bonus, the dog I am trialing likes to go out and make me look like I never taught him anything, ever. THEN, the guys I work with own their own business's and are busy as shit lately. I do know about this stuff.

If I was a cop, I would train that damn building search as often as I can, damn what anyone else says, and I would not say anything so as not to have to hear about gotta be paid, gotta document, whatever. 

I was in the Marine Corps. I was pretty damn good at what I did. If someone with half a brain wants to get you in a dark building, you are gotten. I never wanted to search buildings. **** em, let them get hungry or have to go to the bathroom. They will come out. : ) Based on that, if I have to show a dog, with the better hearing and the better nose where to search, that makes me nervous as ****. I know about buildings, and the currents and this and that, but the dog needs to work the shit out of buildings till HE knows how it works.


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

You make a fine argument but....this thread is about building searches AND area searches. Personally, I would think a dog trained with a laser would be more effective outside than inside. I know dogs are amazing, but they are still dogs. They have no clue about tactics and engagement protocol, they leave that to the humans. If a handler needs a specific area checked before another then that is the handler's call. The dog is a fantastic tool, unfortunately some act like tools sometimes.:grin:

Consider this...why do bird dog handlers use a whistle when the dog can clearly see the human and hear his voice?


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Because they don't want to yell into the wind all the time. Hurts your throat.


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

A well trained dog should not need to learn to follow a laser. At best it is a crutch.[/QUOTE]

It is nothing more than an extra tool in the tool box for its intended application. (Along with survivability of the Handler and Team)


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## Jerry Cudahy (Feb 18, 2010)

Chris McDonald said:


> http://video.yahoo.com/watch/8143120/21589195


dumb video, the beam could blind all humans and animals


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

I've said it earlier and I'll say it again . I agree with Jeff to a point in this . 

Above all else the dog should have a good search pattern without a light , lazer whatever and that's what should be worked on most . 

Having that ability with the light or lazer is good but shouldn't be used in such a way to make up for a dogs shortcomings in search work . If there are problems with a dog's search pattern the handler should step back and correct that not make up for it with some other tool . 

If the dog starts relying on a tool more then it's own natural abilities to do a good search there's a problem . That tool IMO should only be used occassionally .

I only bring this up because I was discussions this thread with another officer via PM where we were discussing the light or lazer becoming a crutch to make up for overly poor search work by the dog . 

This tools can be a good aid but we must becareful they not become a crutch .


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

No arguing with that. My acknowledgement of this exercise is the same as what Jim believes in. It's not a replacement for poor and lazy training/handling...it's a supportive tool that can enhance effectiveness and ensure a safer search if it needs to be used.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Oh C'MON, you guys just want to use the cool lasers. It is ok to admit that, I like lasers too. I like high powered flashlights as well.


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Naaaah. I'ts just one more peice of equipment to get gigged on if you lose it.:mrgreen:


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## Jim Duncan (Jan 19, 2009)

Why didn't I just ask Jeff first? I forgot what an expert he must be on tactical building clearing or anything else related to working dogs. Jeff, thank you so much; from now on I'll check with you before making any decisions or changes. I could use your expertise with hard surface tracking, please let me know when you can do a seminar for our PD. 

Jeff, thanks for all you do and all the great info you share on the various forums.:-D

Jim


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

We use grenades and automatic rifles. Got any questions about that let me know. We never had any use for a dog. There were no penalties for the bad guys if they shot us. We were on foreign soil. 

A little different from what you do. I am sure that your police dept. has a long history like we do. 

Still waiting on the video of the world class training from military handlers and police that compare to the sport world.

Better yet, maybe I will take you up on your offer of doing a seminar for your PD. Love to see those call offs from 2 meters or less, love to see it all. I am ready when you are.


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> We use grenades and automatic rifles. Got any questions about that let me know. We never had any use for a dog. There were no penalties for the bad guys if they shot us. We were on foreign soil.
> 
> A little different from what you do. I am sure that your police dept. has a long history like we do.
> 
> ...


different applications for different folks. Times have changed since you were in Jeff.....


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Still waiting on the video of the world class training from military handlers and police that compare to the sport world.
> .


 Now Jeff, you know that Jody would send a PM to any specialty team officer that would post such a video.[-X. JK Jody:razz:

Seriously though. Why post such a video if military tactical type videos are verboten? You can ask all you want, don't mean you're going to get it. Also doesn't mean they aren't out there. Matter of fact...most would be critiqued after the training exercise and destroyed, or squirreled away so deep even Indian Jones couldn't find it.


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## Jim Duncan (Jan 19, 2009)

Yes, times have changed since Jeff was in. They no longer use muskets or meet at the Tun Tavern. 

Jim


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I can shoot one of those new fangled muskets pretty well. Got to sit for a while before I do, as I am too fat to get into proper position. Can't breathe right.

Nothing wrong with using grenades. Hard to shoot back when you are hamburger. Plus, think of how many would just give up if you used grenades once or twice. 

Too busy thinking about "public opinion" and well, it is not the publics opinion. Don't listen to the warning, get turned into mush. I guarantee it's effectiveness.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: Why post such a video if military tactical type videos are verboten?

OB is ob, control work is control work. Jim mentioned that they had control that would put the sport world to shame. No need for the super secret tactics, just show this control. Better yet, come on down to Texas, and I won't even video. Just watch, or maybe the fat kid puts on the suit and you can send them and I can see up close how much control you have.

Probably only be able to do a couple dogs before I would need a breather.


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: Why post such a video if military tactical type videos are verboten?
> 
> OB is ob, control work is control work. Jim mentioned that they had control that would put the sport world to shame. No need for the super secret tactics, just show this control. Better yet, come on down to Texas, and I won't even video. Just watch, or maybe the fat kid puts on the suit and you can send them and I can see up close how much control you have.
> 
> Probably only be able to do a couple dogs before I would need a breather.


 
I can't speak for anyone else, but if you swing through this area, you know how to get in touch...I sure as hell aint going to Texas though! 

If you do come, no need to bring a dog or suit, just bring comfortable shoes and water.....

I don't like to pick fights for a dog or compare who's is bigger, not my style, we all train and do different things for different reasons, its too easy to bash someone else cuz they do it differently or because its done on a nice grassy field in the middle of day, but I understand and respect that....as well as those who are in the ghetto or combat zone getting it done. BUT, if you like to compare things, I suggest you look at the team concept of everthing. The handler and dog in all that they do. Some dogs are great and handlers SUCK!! Or back asswards......they make it or break it together!


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

You LOVE Texas. It is nice and warm. We can go to lackland and watch them train and get pointers.


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> You LOVE Texas. It is nice and warm. We can go to lackland and watch them train and get pointers.



Isn't that where all the green dogs/green handlers or rental dogs/green handlers train?:lol: No wonder you're so pessimistic.=D>


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

consider this.............. It is 3 am in Kandahar, there is a team of "us good guys" staged on the edge of a known Taliban Village. We have some intel, but of course not enough. The eye in the sky tells us that the 4th hut from the West side and 3 rows of huts back from our current location has a vehicle parked next to it that is believed to be rigged with a large amount of explosives to be used at daylight in a downtown market bombing. All other huts and vehicles in the village have already been cleared several hours ago and this is the only vehicle that has entered the village since the last sweep was done. We only have one dog and we are running out of time. 
Would you prefer to use the laser trained dog that can be guided past all the previously cleared huts and vehicles and guided directly to the only vehicle that needs to be cleared?
Would you prefer to use a non laser trained dog and have him search every vehicle and hut in the village until he gets to the one we are unsure about?
Would you prefer to walk the dog through the village on leash and take him to the vehicle that contains 1000 lbs of explosives?

Dont pick about the scenario here, just ask yourself if there may be a time and place where a laser guided dog could be faster, safer, and more effective than a non laser guided dog.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Mike, I know how bad a trainer you really are, so I am sure you are impressed. LOL Had to bust your balls on that one. Having off leash control at a couple hundred yards is child's play.


First of all.....nowhere have I ever claimed to be a good trainer
Secondly, I am not easily impressed, and although I have been to many National events in a few different sports, in a few different countries, I have not really seen anything that is super amazing.
However I have seen some of our Nation's top barrel chested freedom fighters operate with their K-9s in different scenarios that were very impressive.
I am not talking about standard DOD dog teams here, this is another type of soldier, with another type of trainer, with another type of dog.
You can believe it or not, but the teams that are at the level I am talking about have their shit together, the dogs are clear, stable, under total control, very powerful and driven, and very directable.
The shit these guys do with a dog is a little different than guarding an Easter egg basket.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

I'd like to direct a question to the people involved in law enforcement.

Why do you bother to try to explain what you do ?? Is it required ? It's not like anybody's gonna benefit from what you say..99% of people like me are just trying to get their dog to sit :lol:

Why bother ??


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> I'd like to direct a question to the people involved in law enforcement.
> 
> Why do you bother to try to explain what you do ?? Is it required ? It's not like anybody's gonna benefit from what you say..99% of people like me are just trying to get their dog to sit :lol:
> 
> Why bother ??


Gerry, I know you and I have had some disagreements on this board. But that may be the most logical voice of reason I have read.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

I said a long time ago, on this forum; anything beyond sinking the teeth to the gumline and hanging on is nothing more than my dick is bigger than yours. Law enforcement doesn't have the edge on anyone when it comes to dog training. On occasion however, the results can be more satisfying than a trophy. Except for the trial whores (as some in my line of work are known) these dogs may "trial" on a daily basis. Mistakes -- you betcha -- the occasional up fu**, no question - you tube is full of them. From my perspective however, there are still a few trainers out there, in law enforcement that do a pretty decent job with dogs from the top of the bottom of the barrel and little time to do it. 

DFrost


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I don't think law enforcement needs lasers. Call me crazy. If you need lasers in kandahar then by all means. Bob criminal is not the taliban.


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## Jim Duncan (Jan 19, 2009)

*The shit these guys do with a dog is a little different than guarding an Easter egg basket.*

That sums it up pretty well. Thanks for the laugh.


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I don't think law enforcement needs lasers. Call me crazy. If you need lasers in kandahar then by all means. Bob criminal is not the taliban.



Don't get on your heels now, that would be very un Jeff-like:mrgreen: You're bursting my bubble.





> The shit these guys do with a dog is a little different than guarding an Easter egg basket. Today 09:11 PM


 That's funny right there.

Hey Grimmy...I agree with you.


Jim, you beat me to it.


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## Dwyras Brown (Nov 21, 2008)

Jeff, maybe Bob Criminal is a Timothy McVeigh or Ted Kazinsky. Would you like to walk in with your dog or send him in with laser assistance? Just something to think about.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I can send a .308 round through his brain pan. He wants to be behind a wall, I have no problem with a .50 cal fitting his brain pan nicely.

Yes Howard, you are right, I want to make fun of the need for lasers when they cannot teach the dog to search correctly. Duncan still has yet to impress me with his LEO world class/can do anything the really high level guys do video that just doesn't exist.

Guard the easter basket was pretty good, however, since you yourself have admitted that you are not a trainer, and ( doesn't mean I hate you brother ) but why would I be interested in hearing someone that doesn't trains opinion of training ? Think about that. You tell me about a weapon, I will listen, you tell me about a motorcycle, I will listen, the basic quality of a dog, I will listen, training ?? What are you nuts ??

I hate the GOD DAMN basket as much as you probably think you do, and you too Duncan. However, you train a dog to do it and then maybe you can talk about training. Do it without anyone telling you how, just figure out a game plan and let me know how that works out for you. I can make it even harder, don't use any corrections. 

****ing lasers. Good grief you are retards.

Like that better Howard ?? : )


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

You could use the laser to find the wooden dowel (oobject)l with your scent during a mondio trial.


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## Drew Peirce (Nov 16, 2006)

Finally, a thread that delivers......


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## Jim Duncan (Jan 19, 2009)

will fernandez said:


> You could use the laser to find the wooden dowel (oobject)l with your scent during a mondio trial.


LMAO, very funny. 

Jeff, I know I'm not as good a trainer as you, but my dog remains in a down or will heel off lead with gunfire. The other thing a laser may help you with is teaching your dog not to run away or return to the handler during the long down with gunfire. The whole excuse of "I couldn't find a blank gun to practice" is lame. You live in Texas; just borrow one of your neighbors guns....Get the one with the laser sight. Maybe you'll find a good use for the laser then. :lol:

You have no experience with what this thread was about and as usual have derailed what was a good topic. Again, I find it to be useless and futile to discuss anything with you. I suppose some people find you interesting, some think you have some knowledge. I think you have them fooled. I can't fathom why anyone would think you have anything worhtwhile to share? I guess I missed that one intelligent thread of yours.


Jim


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Yet He and I are out there competing. Right out there where everyone can see. You make claims that LEO dogs can compete with the best in the world, and I think you are a flat out goofball for thinking anything of the sort.

Let me refresh your memory of what some of the best in the world look like. Here is one of my favorites

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x9s62o_ulko-a-brive-finale-ring-2009_sport

The balls on you to flat out lie and think that you or anyone else in the US LEO world can train a dog to do this. We have Mondio trials coming up. The nationals is next month. Since you think that LEO has all this control and can compete with the best in the world, then sign up and lets see it.

No lasers are allowed, the dog has to actually find the guy.

Your dog would melt like butter if you even tried to compete at the world level. 

Of course, since I know nothing about nothing, you should be able to show me up no problem. 

The offer still stands, you can come down to the seminar and show me your great training. I will catch your dog for you. We can do the call off. You let your dog chase me, and see if you can call him off at 2 meters. 

After all, I know nothing, so someone like you whose dog can hold a down under gunfire should be able to do a call off like that, hell, you are LEO and they can compete with the best in the world. You should be able to smoke someone like me easy.

Then we can do the easter egg basket, except in Mondio it can be almost anything. My dog botched that last year, so you should be able to do it easy. After all, you have that LEO world famous control.

Something smells like bullshit Jim, wait, yes, yes, it is coming from your post. The work is all fine and dandy till the control is asked for. Lets see how bad your dog melts under actual control. Hell, you can use a laser for the easter egg basket if you want. You can even use commands if you want. I bet I make you and your dog look like idiots.


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## Jim Duncan (Jan 19, 2009)

Jeff,
Did I hit a nerve? Is it a touchy subject the gunfire comment? Since you are so sensitive about it I erased the rest of what I was going to say regarding your dog breaking the down and running for cover. Well, he find couldn't the dowell with your scent but he sure found you when he bolted. Didn't he? 

My comment about the high end guys training and their dogs were not LEO's guys. Just another thing you misunderstood, comprehension is a bitch isn't it?

Jeff, I realize you get some inane satisfaction over arguing about things that you clearly don't understand. You simply argue to hear yourself ramble. Thanks for the witty dialogue, it had a few good laughs. Thank you for being you, your really something special. ](*,)


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## Jim Duncan (Jan 19, 2009)

*The offer still stands, you can come down to the seminar and show me your great training. I will catch your dog for you. We can do the call off. You let your dog chase me, and see if you can call him off at 2 meters. 
*
Ohhhhh, I just saw that....Now I am really LMAO. You are offering to catch my dog, good god man you'll break a hip. You can barely walk you old geezer. I saw the video of you trying to catch that puppy going over the jump, there is no way in hell I'd let you catch my dog. 

Maybe if you triple up on the Geritol and Advil you could try to run a little. When was the last time you caught a dog? 

Again thanks for the laugh, your awesome. I am just catching on to your dry sense of humor, I think I like it.

Jim


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Hit a nerve ? Do you really think that my ego is attached to my dog ? 

I guess you can't show up because you are busy. That is ok, we will have another seminar soon enough.

I know I am old, but I have seen LEO people in the suit. I thought it was a video for some sort of dress up at the retard home, but no, they were doing the amazing and difficult tricep catch or the forearm catch, or the standing still and get knocked down catch....... if you can call it that. I can do all of those still. 

So don't be a little quitter, come on down. Your dogs are supposed to be able to handle old guys like me no problem. 

Or, just maybe, it is the control issue that you are afraid of ?? Afraid your dog will look like a little *** and I will be the one making him look that way ?? Assumption is the mother of all ****ups Jim, so maybe, just maybe the old fat guy knows a thing or two about dogs and can make your dog look stupid. You never know Jim, us sport guys that know nothing are pretty tricky.

So c'mon down and have some fun with us. I will take it easy on your dog, and give him the rewar....... I mean super cool tricep bite he is used to. I will only make him look a little stupid. 

We are going to have big fires and meat. How can you resist ? Plus, we will send you home with a nice video of your dog getting ****ed by a old fat sport guy and a nice bottle of advil for the constant headache of knowing I got you good. : )


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Yes Howard, you are right, I want to make fun of the need for lasers when they cannot teach the dog to search correctly. Duncan still has yet to impress me with his LEO world class/can do anything the really high level guys do video that just doesn't exist.


 We are on the same page then.\\/ And don't hold your breath for the video. LEOs are directed to destroy them once reviewed.



> I hate the GOD DAMN basket as much as you probably think you do,


 Maybe if you got in the spirit and wore an Easter bonnet then



> Like that better Howard ?? : )


Yes, thank you very much.


Oh crap! This thread has gone the way of the us vs them again. I hate when that happen!

The goals for the two are completely different. I dont know why this argument keeps occurring. LEOs have shown they can do sport work with their dogs. Many do and there was even a series on TV. I know, I know...here comes the argument over which sport is better now.

I have to say..I saw Kristina Senter's dog (Gator I think) and Will's dog last year at the gathering. Gator was Awesome! I would proudly serve with Kristina/Gator on the street (providing she was a good cop also) without reservation. Kristina is a great handler. Will's dog was right up there with the other top dogs which was pretty good as his dog is fairly new if I remember correctly.

There's one good way to put this all to rest...show up in Georgia this year.

Regarding the call off at 2 meters....Wayne Dodge was agitating my dog with no equipment. The leather leash broke at the clasp and my boy recalled from about 10 feet away after being whipped into a frenzy. Surprised the shit out of me. I'm sure Wayne was happy too but I'm sure his skill probably would have saved him. 

My boy may be my Roscoe's son, but he is no Roscoe. He's a bit more defensive than I like but he is what he is. His training also wasn't/hasn't been as intense as what my patrol dogs got either. That being said...the 2-3 meter call off was real world and not pre trained. if that's the measure of a good dog then I'll take it. In reality..my screaming like a horrified little girl is what probably did it for me and Wayne.:-o


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Ya got to try the call off when the decoy is running away. That is the special fun part.

What is that Dodge kid up to ? I saw him working that Senter/Stacey pup giving a good demonstration of a dog that just isn't scared of you, and what it looks like to try and get the teeth thing going.

If I thought that wearing a bonnet would have made teaching the stupid stupid basket easier, you are damn skippy I would wear one. It is a lot easier with Esko this time, but that first time with Buko I had a lot of moments where I wanted to kick things.


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Ya got to try the call off when the decoy is running away. That is the special fun part.
> 
> What is that Dodge kid up to ? I saw him working that Senter/Stacey pup giving a good demonstration of a dog that just isn't scared of you, and what it looks like to try and get the teeth thing going.
> 
> If I thought that wearing a bonnet would have made teaching the stupid stupid basket easier, you are damn skippy I would wear one. It is a lot easier with Esko this time, but that first time with Buko I had a lot of moments where I wanted to kick things.


 So it's harder in prey drive?

I very rarely see Wayne but he obviously stays busy.

Maybe an Easter Bunny suit too.:mrgreen:=D>

Probably not the same but...me and one of our Narc guys was fighting a drug dealer from out of county one night. This guy already broke another officer's jaw and was intent on doing the same to us..he was a big boy too.

I release the dog with the remote from the car and just feet before he gets to us the bad guy picks up the narc ofc and shields himself with him. I'm the only one in uniform, the bad guy and narc ofc are both black and wearing black clothing. The dog calls out with maybe less than a meter to go before contact. Needles to say I was pretty happy. Bad guy hits the dirt like a Nancy boy and starts screaming he gives up. He ain't afraid of cops and all thier cool little tools that can hurt him but is terrified of the dog. Puss.


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Howard Knauf said:


> So it's harder in prey drive?
> 
> I very rarely see Wayne but he obviously stays busy.
> 
> ...


 
Wayne is good he can really bring the heat!!


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Lets have fun with this video. Shall we ? After all, world class LEO should have something to say.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uM62JdjZ_Rk&feature=related

Better get out the lasers.


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Three moron talking heads. That one is beneath you Jeff. If you actually believe that BS then you are a lost cause. If anyone should know better, it's you.

Get something worth debating...not some MTV teenybopper propaganda show.

"Like wow dude. Dogs can't find drugs. You cops are scammin innocent dopers. I know cause I saw it on TYT." 

Jeff, get some sleep and start over in the morning.:mrgreen:


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Did you read the article they are talking about ? It is referenced there with a link.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

I saw a youtube and went on a canine discussion board, I am now an expert. ha ha.

Court presentation; Dog was used to sniff 164 vehicles. The dog responded on 25 of the 164 vehicles. Drugs were found in 23 of the 25 vehicles the dog responded on. 23 of 25 is 92%. I'm not even making excuses for the 2 of the 25 vehicles the dog responded on where no drugs were found. 

The courts have said the response of a well trained drug detector dog could be used as probable cause under certain circumstances. One of those circumstances is a vehicle traveling on public highways. If you understand the meaning of probable cause, I ask you. Does 92 out of a 100 meet the requirement of probable cause? 

Keep in mind these weren't training exercises. There were vehicles, traveling on public roads, pulled over by a law enforcement officer for various offenses. The dog was either summoned or on scene, dog handlers are also Troopers and make traffic stops. The dog conducted a sniff of the vehicle on the side of the road. 


The training for this dog was also presented. During this reporting period, the dog was subjected to 140 training aids (all single blind). the dog gave a positive, unassisted response to 140 training aids, (100%). The dog had no false or unproductive responses during this period of training. 

Training data is included to give a complete view of the dogs proficiency.
It's not smoke and mirrors.

DFrost


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## Chuck Zang (May 12, 2010)

The main problem with the discussion panel's analysis is that they appeared to misunderstand the difference between a scan(Sniff) and a search. That is how they came up with the bogus accuracy percentage. Either that or they are ascerting that there are drugs in every vehicle and the dogs only found them 23 times- I think, I couldn't watch the entire video the stupidity was too painful. "It's a dog. Dogs don't know what drugs are..."


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Agreed. People see videos such as that, then try to substantiate their discussion. It shows their ignorance as well. At any rate, we attempt to educate those that want to learn. Those that don't want to learn really don't matter anyway. Facts just get in their way. 

DFrost


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

David Frost said:


> Agreed. People see videos such as that, then try to substantiate their discussion. It shows their ignorance as well. At any rate, we attempt to educate those that want to learn. Those that don't want to learn really don't matter anyway. Facts just get in their way.
> 
> DFrost



Thanks David. I didn't have the energy. Imagine...dopers complaining because a drug dog is ineffective. What a laugh


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I thought the video was pretty funny. I have no idea if the guy in the middle there is just retarded, or playing a part.


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

I'll go with retarded...and ignorant, moronic, stupido, brain dead, etc.

He should be arrested for mopery, dopery, skulduggery and public ugly. Can't believe he gets paid to say such stupid shit. The other two? Well, clueless to say the least.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I have watched a bunch of their videos. This is the first time I have seen the retard. The other guy I would invite to come out with my friends and I as he has a pretty interesting view on some stuff. I would love to see how he handled that, and besides, having everyone agree with you all the time is retarded. 

I have not watched their stuff in a long time, and this looked like they were playing more to youtubers than the stuff I watched before.


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Lets have fun with this video. Shall we ? After all, world class LEO should have something to say.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uM62JdjZ_Rk&feature=related
> 
> Better get out the lasers.


This is based on the horribly written news article we talked about here 

http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f38/drug-dogs-wrong-more-often-than-right-18590/

right ?


The biggest problem I got with this youtube thing is it's their job to make funny , clever and sometimes thought provoking talk about the news of the day . I get it ,this article regardless about how well written or accurrate it is still provides plenty of material for their gig . 

The problem was it was none of that . They couldn't even be funny . At least be funny !


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