# Injured Helper = Strong Dog???



## Dana McMahan (Apr 5, 2006)

Just curious what everyone's opinion is on people who brag about their dog injuring helpers as if that makes their dog stronger. 

From a helper perspective, can't injuries happen just as often when dogs are mis-targeting, avoiding the pocket, etc. 

Does the ability to knock down helpers really show a strong dog?


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

no. an injured helper usually has little to do with a strong dog. it usually has to do with a mistake from the handler, or the decoy.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Dana Williams said:


> Just curious what everyone's opinion is on people who brag about their dog injuring helpers as if that makes their dog stronger.
> 
> From a helper perspective, can't injuries happen just as often when dogs are mis-targeting, avoiding the pocket, etc.
> 
> Does the ability to knock down helpers really show a strong dog?


A person bragging about there dog taking out helpers is a dick head and prolly a n00b doing stupid shit in there backyard.
If my dog were to take down a helper I'd let the helper tell the story and give my dog the kudos if there deserved.
Don't get me wrong I take pride in my dog dishing a nice shot just bad edicate to brag JMO


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

I agree with Mike, it's tacky as hell. There is no need for anyone to brag about this with their own dog. If the dog is that badass helpers will be talking about it enough. Most of the time when I have been injured by a dog, it's been been some type of unpredictable nervous dog doing some crazy avoidance shit. A dog taking down a helper can happen simply because of a misstep by the helper. And every helper in the world is going to have some missteps. 

Let's see the "take downs".


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## Drew Peirce (Nov 16, 2006)

Would this be considered an injury?


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I don't really like it that Buko takes the decoys down. There is too much chance of injury. I know he was sore after Nationals. I also know it happens. I think whoever you were talking to is not someone you should listen to, or train with. 

Kinda goes along the lines of gaines's "live bites" on the training field. Goof balls. [-X


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Drew Peirce said:


> Would this be considered an injury?


??? theres barely a mark....thats not an injury, that goes with being a decoy :lol:

ive seen my husband black and purple on a regular decoyday for him...nothing special about it...injury would be when the dog goes through the suit or when the decoy didnt suit up correctly before starting his decoy work...with an injury I would expect to atleast see blood and not a slow trickle either.

as to injured helper = strong dog...biggest bullshit statement If i ever seen one...

example: oktober 9th 2009 my dog casper did his PH1 trail and the decoy ended up in hospital with rather nasty damage to his leg and the inside of his knee...and yes casper is one of those dogs that comes to hurt you when your in the suit, wasnt the reason tho, decoy didnt suit up right and this was the result. he managed to get between the leather top and bottom half so casper could put his teeth to full use on the tendons and nerves of the decoys legs....


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## Drew Peirce (Nov 16, 2006)

My post, it was sarcasm......

But seriously, Alice, you rule!!!


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## Ellen Piepers (Nov 6, 2008)

Dana Williams said:


> Just curious what everyone's opinion is on people who brag about their dog injuring helpers as if that makes their dog stronger.


I think those people lack something in between their ears. Under certrain circumstances, knocking down the helper can just happen, also with a dog that's nothing special at all. Bragging about it or about injuring the decoy just shows how shortsighted and selfish these people are. Wait till their dog gets seriously injured in the process. Or the decoy, or the decoy gets seriously fed up with the handler for not training the dog properly.


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## Carmen van de Kamp (Apr 2, 2006)

That was you dog Alice and yes, he just should have put his suit on right....

As for hurting/injuring the decoy, most of it comes from dogs that try to avoid the impact and swing around the decoy, that can give shoulder, knee & back problems with the decoy. 
The bruses as on the picture are just normal (even worse, but that also depends on how easy you bruse and how hard the dog bites combined with how long after the bite you look for the bruses as Tim knows as his bruses from his visit here came when he was already back in the USA) I wouldn't call bruses injuries. 

As written by others too, mostly it happens when the dog was not correctly learned an attack, his place where to bite and in the case the dog wants to avoid contact in his attack, with can not only hurt the decoy, but also the dog, think of broken K9's, muscle injuries etc.


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## Scott Williams (Aug 24, 2009)

One of my dogs seriously injured a decoy. It required surgery and months of rehab. I have been injured doing decoy work that required surgery and I have had dogs injured on me as a decoy. As a French friend so elequently stated "..it is sport contact." it is never the dogs fault if the dog is not biting skin IMO. I think most of the time injuries are a result of inexperience, poor timing or simply old age. Decoy and helper work is a young persons game. Only the best athletes can successfully extend a career into later years. Weekend warriors will be mercilessly beaten just like jumping into a full contact football game.


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## sam wilks (May 3, 2009)

I think you could be happy with a dog that has a strong grip and puts some pain to the helper. But many people think that its awesome to have a dog that is dirty. The shitty part of that is people who want to learn helper work and then meet up with someone like that who does long sends for the persons first time. For some reason they think its funny to watch someone who is just trying to learn be humiliated. When I first started I didnt know any better till I got my scalp tore open by a dirty dog with an a hole for a handler. Might have been someone Jeff O was referring to


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

sam wilks said:


> I think you could be happy with a dog that has a strong grip and puts some pain to the helper. But many people think that its awesome to have a dog that is dirty. The shitty part of that is people who want to learn helper work and then meet up with someone like that who does long sends for the persons first time. For some reason they think its funny to watch someone who is just trying to learn be humiliated. When I first started I didnt know any better till I got my scalp tore open by a dirty dog with an a hole for a handler. Might have been someone Jeff O was referring to


it would be interesting knowing the persons name that would send there dog long on a green decoy or would this be something that took place on jack ass


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Dog leveling a decoy could be bad for both involved depending how they land and hit the ground, Its cool to see happen from time to time but like already said wouldnt go around bragging about that shit. If the decoy brings it up well thats his choice but no reason as the handler to throw salt in the wound. I prefer my dog stay up on his own feet along with the decoy to me its just not worth the possible bills for a few second cool show. Its happens to the best of us but no reason to make it a regular occurence. JMO


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## Carmen van de Kamp (Apr 2, 2006)

No, not only at jackass, enough clubs where they do it like that....

Just also recently (2years ago) saw it at the club were my partner started training...a "kid" (23 years) came watching for the first time, they put him in a suit and send a 40 kilo dog from the end of the lane, so full distance, result, his ligements in his knees were torn


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## sam wilks (May 3, 2009)

Mike, the persons last name rhymes with paines and is mentiond by Jeff O :-$:-&:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Drew Peirce said:


> Would this be considered an injury?


no, just part of decoying...hahahahahah see know that Alice, Ellen and Carmen all reacting the same way :mrgreen:


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## andreas broqvist (Jun 2, 2009)

Its so wrekles to do a long send on a new decoy its not even funny. Yes you can get the guy hit to the ground if you think thats funny, But if he downt spin and the dogs go midweight the dog migh breake. Then they will blame it on the docoy the stupid ****er.

I ben taken down a cupple of time. Every time smal dogs with spesial tactis. One does a spin in tha escape. She bites hig up on the triceps and then just pulls her legs in and let sped and gravity do the stuff. Its like a judo throw. If you downt know she does that looks up your arm you will fal. No mater how big you are, shes under 50 pounds mali. 

I saw another mali do this on a film from som kind of ring seminar her on WDF to  It looks cool, but its more dangerus for the dog than the decoy.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: When I first started I didnt know any better till I got my scalp tore open by a dirty dog with an a hole for a handler. Might have been someone Jeff O was referring to

I really hate people that think that is funny. It was prevalent when I was a kid, and I guess some people still do it. I do not want a decoy that is afraid of the dog, and that is one way to insure that they have a bad memory of working a dog.


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## Mike Lauer (Jul 26, 2009)

some dogs obviously hit harder than others. I have caught gently 100 rotts and freight train 70# malis
if someone states their dog hits hard it may be that the dog hits hard
bragging about injuring a decoy would be dickish
but the same thing apply's to decoys that overwork dogs, if you think your so tuff take off the suit


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

sam wilks said:


> I think you could be happy with a dog that has a strong grip and puts some pain to the helper. But many people think that its awesome to have a dog that is dirty. The shitty part of that is people who want to learn helper work and then meet up with someone like that who does long sends for the persons first time. For some reason they think its funny to watch someone who is just trying to learn be humiliated. When I first started I didnt know any better till I got my scalp tore open by a dirty dog with an a hole for a handler. Might have been someone Jeff O was referring to





Mike Scheiber said:


> it would be interesting knowing the persons name that would send there dog long on a green decoy or would this be something that took place on jack ass





sam wilks said:


> Mike, the persons last name rhymes with paines and is mentiond by Jeff O :-$:-&:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:


I didn't see it so I'll ask Howard Gains did you send a dog long on a green helper/decoy if so could you explain what **** you were thinking


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

I remember when I first started out in KNPV that the club I was in at the time thought it funny to mess around with new aspiring decoys...

per example with one kid of 21 they explained to him how it worked and then the put a trial jacket on him without the leather and took a young dog and had him do bitepractice with the young dog...dog was about 10 months if i remember correctly...kid ended up in the ER filled with holes and bleeding like a MF, we got sent away from that club. We were just entering the training area that morning when this happend and we took the kid to the ER to get patched up and returned to the club to pick up our things coze we both didnt want to stay with a club that fks around like that....but when we got there hubby got out the car and got pissed of at some remark the headtrainer made about the kid being a crybaby so my husband basicly kicked the shit out of him and ended up in the policestation for assault. Ended up with a trip to court 3 months later a Hfl 750,- fine which would be around 350 euros now and a year of probation....didnt regret it one second tho.

Here's the thing tho....fking about with your decoy ? stupidest thing you can do, you cant train a dog all by your lonely ! you need a decoy its that simple...have some respect for the guys and galls that put on the decoy material and have the shit bitten out of them, they are doing it to help and dont have to, lets face it, without them we are well and truly ****ed!


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## Tanith Wheeler (Jun 5, 2009)

I think my '2nd' time decoying I was asked to let the dog take me down... supposedly it needed confidence building and I was too new (or stupid) to know how silly that was.

The dog got me on the floor shook me around for a sec - left the bite and went for my head. Several years of dog rescue experience was the only thing that saved me from a serious bite.

FYI - not a strong dog, a nervy one. And I haven't worn a suit since


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## Ben Colbert (Mar 9, 2010)

Tanith Wheeler said:


> I think my '2nd' time decoying I was asked to let the dog take me down... supposedly it needed confidence building and I was too new (or stupid) to know how silly that was.


I find this interesting. I've seen several helpers fall down on a good bite in order to build confidence. I guess the idea goes that it doesn't get much primal then knocking your opponent to the ground and taking what you want (the sleeve).

You don't agree?

Edit: Off course this is only done with handlers you can trust.


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Ben Colbert said:


> Edit: Off course this is only done with handlers you can trust.


and dogs you (can) trust. confidence building can only be done if you know what you're doing in the suit. Confidence building is not: just let the dog go...and let the decoy fall down his a$$


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## Pete Stevens (Dec 16, 2010)

Nothing funny about any injury, helper or dog. I've been tore up by some dogs while in the suit or muzzle fighting. That's just the price of doing business. The injuries I have had while doing helper work at a Schtzhund club were usually my fault and since its a sport, we really try to make sure the dogs don't get hurt. Not that doing police decoy training is trying to hurt a dog but we try to make it as real as possible without anyone getting hurt. In a sport, there is no need for that kind of build up. Police work is a different tory but we can achieve that goal without anyone getting hurt.

Usually the bragger is a complete a-hole and has no business being in the sport.


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## Mike Lauer (Jul 26, 2009)

I think "we" as a sport do a wonderful job avoiding injury booth to the dogs and helpers
consider other contact sports like football, mma, or even non contact sports like basketball. There are much more injuries percapita


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Ben Colbert said:


> I find this interesting. I've seen several helpers fall down on a good bite in order to build confidence. I guess the idea goes that it doesn't get much primal then knocking your opponent to the ground and taking what you want (the sleeve).
> 
> You don't agree?
> 
> Edit: Off course this is only done with handlers you can trust.


When using a sleeve I can't think of a reason to have a dog KNOCK you down on a send, on purpose, it can and does happen but, Proper catches will negate a dog's ability to knock a person down, and repeated impacts will cause most dogs to start to "gather" or slow down right before they launch, to avoid the impact, you see this a lot.

"Going to the ground" after the bite has occured can be beneficial to build confidence. With a dog you know and trust, 

Suitwork is another animal, Some dogs just have a knack for taking people down...if you know you are gonna go down, DON"T fight it, just go down in a safe manner and protect yourself afterwards. 

We do a good deal of "going to the ground" stuff with suit or sleeve after the bite, it's a dog by dog basis....

My dog has only knocked down a guy a couple times, sometimes with a new or different decoy, she decides to forget the targets, and goes center mass high on the back or front, very recklessly. 

Our Sch. helper will take my dog down to the ground in a suit, but knows the dog well and there is a good deal of trust, but not enough trust to go to the ground in a sleeve..dog can be dirty at times.

we do go down on short sends on the suit sometimes, on line, but it is always after the impact, and usually down on a knee...


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## Tanith Wheeler (Jun 5, 2009)

I do agree that knocking down the helper - 'winning the game' - will build confidence with some dogs, but it won't make a good dog out of a mediocre one. It is something that experienced decoys should do I think.

My male takes great pleasure in knocking helpers onto the floor, he hits pretty hard and just seems to have the knack of putting people on their butt. But as he is only trained on sleeve bites, he won't adjust his grip somewhere dangerous.

He did once bite a decoy, the sleeve slipped and he got the guys arm. He let go straight away but left impressive teethmarks.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Tanith Wheeler said:


> I do agree that knocking down the helper - 'winning the game' - will build confidence with some dogs, but it won't make a good dog out of a mediocre one. It is something that experienced decoys should do I think.
> 
> My male takes great pleasure in knocking helpers onto the floor, he hits pretty hard and just seems to have the knack of putting people on their butt. But as he is only trained on sleeve bites, he won't adjust his grip somewhere dangerous.
> 
> He did once bite a decoy, the sleeve slipped and he got the guys arm. He let go straight away but left impressive teethmarks.


Does he go through the guys, or take them down on the catch? 

Most sleeve dogs that I have seen take guys out are fast and stay dead center, and do not really launch, they come up at the last possible moment at high speed, are hard to read, and use their front paws to self absorb...

I am not sure if you can train a dog to be like this, I think most of them are just like that, and yes they do get satisfaction from knocking a guy over, but these types of dogs are not so common I don't think, and I doubt the training makes that much of difference, they just do what they do...I doubt that confidence building plays any big part in the picture.


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## Mario Fernandez (Jun 21, 2008)

At times a good dog will take down an experience helpers/decoys. 

Injuries for dogs or helpers/decoys can happen at any time its a contact activity we do and part of the job. Injuries that can be prevented ie..handler or out of control job or better yet inexperience helper getting to cocky... chalk it up as a a lesson learned. Been hurt, been bit, through experience now I know not to let certain handler handle the line, don't get to fancy and abide by the KISS rule.

Letting a dog knocked down is not just a confidence builder.. which we do with some young dogs. 

Joby not all dogs slow down. Some come with an reckless abandonment. You get a dog that knows it can knock down a helper it can be an issue ie secondary Ob and out issue. When it happens in a trial you now must set the dog up and replicate the trial scenario again.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Mario Fernandez said:


> don't get to fancy and abide by the KISS rule.
> 
> Letting a dog knocked down is not just a confidence builder.. which we do with some young dogs.
> 
> Joby not all dogs slow down. Some come with an reckless abandonment. You get a dog that knows it can knock down a helper it can be an issue ie secondary Ob and out issue. When it happens in a trial you now must set the dog up and replicate the trial scenario again.


Mario, I did say most, in the big scope of things, I stand by that...Did not say all..
in your judgement,would you say, in this type of dog, this a thing that is more often built by confidence building through knockdowns, or more often the dog is just reckless and wants to knock the guy down, that it is just his style...


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## Dominique Domogala (Nov 16, 2010)

most decoy injuries are due the fact that the decoy isn't experienced enough , or don't knows the dog .
it always can happen by accident and then im not proud of it . because there aren't so many decoys out there and if they get injured and they might loose there interest in what they are doing .

i had it a couple of times . went to a club and there was a green decoy . so i didn't want to do long attacks . but with the search and transport the decoy tried to make a run but wasn't fast enough and my dog bite him in his fingers . it was so embarrassing for me . the guy put on his suit for me a (stranger ) to help me with my dog . and my dog bites his fingers . the guy couldn't get to work the next day . 

so nothing to be proud of .


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Dana Williams said:


> Just curious what everyone's opinion is on people who brag about their dog injuring helpers as if that makes their dog stronger.
> 
> From a helper perspective, can't injuries happen just as often when dogs are mis-targeting, avoiding the pocket, etc.
> 
> Does the ability to knock down helpers really show a strong dog?


 A strong dog could cause this, but WHY would you want any helper/decoy injured? Folks are hard to get, hard to keep, and harder to train! IMO more injuries are from simple mishaps, the skilled decoy trying NOT to hurt the dog and over reacting or thinking faster than they can move.

Strong dogs stay in the fight or on the bite surface. While taking the helper down may look as impressive as the great flying catch, caution is the word! Helpers who are hurt should have the handler get into their space as fast as possible to prevent any further injuries...JMO


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Howard Gaines III said:


> A strong dog could cause this, but WHY would you want any helper/decoy injured? Folks are hard to get, hard to keep, and harder to train! IMO more injuries are from simple mishaps, the skilled decoy trying NOT to hurt the dog and over reacting or thinking faster than they can move.
> 
> Strong dogs stay in the fight or on the bite surface. While taking the helper down may look as impressive as the great flying catch, caution is the word! Helpers who are hurt should have the handler get into their space as fast as possible to prevent any further injuries...JMO


Howard, a member here posted an incident involving YOU as the handler...any comments?


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> Howard, a member here posted an incident involving YOU as the handler...any comments?


Here it is
Originally Posted by *sam wilks*  
_I think you could be happy with a dog that has a strong grip and puts some pain to the helper. But many people think that its awesome to have a dog that is dirty. The shitty part of that is people who want to learn helper work and then meet up with someone like that who does long sends for the persons first time. For some reason they think its funny to watch someone who is just trying to learn be humiliated. When I first started I didnt know any better till I got my scalp tore open by a dirty dog with an a hole for a handler. Might have been someone Jeff O was referring to







_
Quote:
Originally Posted by *Mike Scheiber*  
_it would be interesting knowing the persons name that would send there dog long on a green decoy or would this be something that took place on jack ass_

Quote:
Originally Posted by *sam wilks*  
_Mike, the persons last name rhymes with paines and is mentiond by Jeff O













































































_

I didn't see it so I'll ask Howard Gains did you send a dog long on a green helper/decoy if so could you explain what **** you were thinking __________________


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## Tanith Wheeler (Jun 5, 2009)

```
Does he go through the guys, or take them down on the catch? 

Most sleeve dogs that I have seen take guys out are fast and stay dead center, and do not really launch, they come up at the last possible moment at high speed, are hard to read, and use their front paws to self absorb...

I am not sure if you can train a dog to be like this, I think most of them are just like that, and yes they do get satisfaction from knocking a guy over, but these types of dogs are not so common I don't think, and I doubt the training makes that much of difference, they just do what they do...I doubt that confidence building plays any big part in the picture.
```
He tends to do it when I send him after a running target, he's a big gsd and tends to run at the sleeve with no regard for the impact or safety - or if the decoy had irritated him in some way, like a stick attack


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## Adam Swilling (Feb 12, 2009)

Here's another point. The vast majority of green helpers feel like they have something to prove; their young and full of piss and vinegar and THINK they can handle a dog on a long attack. I may be playing devil's advocate a little, but the first thing I learned about decoy work, before I ever caught a dog, was get the ego the hell out of the way. I won't even let a cocky helper touch my dogs. More than likely the dog will end up injured due to the helper not wanting to be "beaten" by the dog. But that is usually inexperienced helpers I see that in. As for myself, if it's a dog I've never seen before, I will not do a long attack. I don't know that dog and that dog does not know me. I'm not risking injury to either of us.If it's a dog I've seen and know its tendancies, I'll do it. I learned the old slow way of decoy work. Nothing but short frontal and side bites for months. Distance was added gradually, and all done in the best interest of myself and the dog. Every time I've went down unintentionally, it was my mistake; a poor catch, my footwork was wrong, etc. A dog knocking down a decoy shows me nothing about the dog, personally. I am guaging the committment of the dog to get to the bite and how it fights when it gets there.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Tanith Wheeler said:


> Does he go through the guys, or take them down on the catch?
> 
> Most sleeve dogs that I have seen take guys out are fast and stay dead center, and do not really launch, they come up at the last possible moment at high speed, are hard to read, and use their front paws to self absorb...
> 
> ...


fixed it


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## Timothy Saunders (Mar 12, 2009)

Dana Williams said:


> Just curious what everyone's opinion is on people who brag about their dog injuring helpers as if that makes their dog stronger.
> 
> From a helper perspective, can't injuries happen just as often when dogs are mis-targeting, avoiding the pocket, etc.
> 
> Does the ability to knock down helpers really show a strong dog?


I don't know if it makes him strong but I think a dog that consistently knocks down decoy has very good commitment to the bite and a kind of recklessness .


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Joby Becker said:


> Howard, a member here posted an incident involving YOU as the handler...any comments?


 Joby...thanks. I haven't been on here in a long time and haven't seen this, in fact I know sam as a former club member.

Folks who have seen me work my male Bouvier des Flandres KNOW I take safegards with this dog and with new helpers. Safeguards which include and not limited to: release of liability forms, lots of verbals and hands on demos with me decoying, and newbies catching on SHORT sends and with long lines. When we do K-9 demos, we take many safegaurds for public safety with all dogs. 

Sam never had his head ripped off or the scalp laid open, he did get his crew cut scraped good and with no flowing blood or stitches needed, he didn't keep his balance and fell dog with the dog attached to his back on the bite suit, poor mechanics on his part. If you catch long enough, you get bit.The dog redirected to his head. The second he was down, I was on top of him and covered him with my body covering his face. The dog isn't dirty, his sees everything as a fight, not a sleeve happy critter or sport dog. Sam continued to catch for quite a while after that.

Long sends on untrained or unskilled folks isn't a smart move. Those who see me work my dogs know I am a very careful handler. Bite sleeve and suit "outs" aren't choke offs or lift offs. I use a verbal, one command and the dog complies. When I was tested through the DVG, safety and many reminders of what could happen were addressed to me, I also pass this good information alone when others want to try the decoy venue. Decoying isn't a risk free venue. When you choose to work on hard or strong, nonsport dogs, the risks do increase.

Sam had promise in this area, he and others have been told the risks involved, staying vertical and paying attention are but a few of the things one should remember each time you suit up for dog work. I have had MANY close calls and some training bites. The only thing I can add, come out and see for yourself or talk with our club members...secrets we don't have...


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Adam Swilling said:


> ... As for myself, if it's a dog I've never seen before, I will not do a long attack. I don't know that dog and that dog does not know me. I'm not risking injury to either of us.If it's a dog I've seen and know its tendancies, I'll do it. I learned the old slow way of decoy work. Nothing but short frontal and side bites for months. Distance was added gradually, and all done in the best interest of myself and the dog. Every time I've went down unintentionally, it was my mistake; a poor catch, my footwork was wrong, etc. A dog knocking down a decoy shows me nothing about the dog, personally. I am guaging the committment of the dog to get to the bite and how it fights when it gets there.


 AGREE: Adam this is a strong point for ANYONE, if you haven't seen the dog work, work SHORT.
Decoys going down are many times a product of decoy balance, or better spoken a lack of balance. Some dogs have an ability to trip or twist you up. 
AGREE: It is often about decoy footwork. 
Going to the ground helps to build young dogs, the helper/decoy and handler must work together to help prevent dog, handler, or helper injuries. I think strong dogs are predictable, weak nerve dogs aren't and can roll over or under the sleeve or suit to go about getting the decoy in "another" manner.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

*Rumors and Gossip*

One thing that hasn't been talked about in detail is the gossip and rumors that happen after an incident. A couple of years ago my SchH III Doberman was training for a MR Face attack.
The decoy lost his footing and my dog nailed him in the chin as he as getting up (he was over her face). He finished working her before we even knew he'd been bitten. He had to go to the ER and get 14 stitches. NO problem with the decoy who said accidents happen and if you decoy you're going to get bit. The big deal was the BS rumors started by other people. Some who weren't even there, about my dog being a face biter :-( 
Dubhesa had a close H&B but was always clean. The next trial the decoy couldn't/wouldn't stand still and every time he moved Dubheasa wanted to bark and guard instead of recalling or outing and zeroed the exercise.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

We had an accident this year...

A very stong nerved sch dog grabbed the top of a guys head during suit work, he tried to stay on his feet instead of going down, got twisted and fell on top of the dog, the dog had a grass stain on the top of his head...
as the guy sat up the dog grabbed the top of his head.

This dog is one of the safest dogs in the group to work, seasoned SCH, sleeve sure. Just don't fall on him and crush him off the bite and roll the wrong way..I have been taken down by him a few times on back bites, but if you just go down, he stays on the back...

I felt bad about the whole deal, but he took it well...and it was not my call or my dog..


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## Jim Cook (Mar 17, 2010)

One bad catch can end a dog's or decoy's career. After retiring my first schH3 dog due to a neck injury suffered by a bad catch by a cocky helper, I'm very cautious now. I like having a hard hitting dog, but it comes with it's risks.

I see no reason to do long sends on a hard hitting reckless dog, once he knows technique. The dog is going to stick the long bite, so why risk injury to the dog or decoy. Even with a great helper, mistakes happen. My competition dog only sees long bites during trials, and even then I cross my fingers every time I send him. Same with my Patrol dog. I see no reason to risk it for my gratification, the dog is just as happy with a shorter bite, and he is much safer IMO.

It's a contact sport, regardless. It's all fun and games till someone gets hurt.


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## sam wilks (May 3, 2009)

no secrets in a club that changes its members like i change my socks?:-?
the dog was attached on his back, how did my head get bit?[-( My scalp was tore up and yes I continued catching dogs which I still do, what can I say i am a high drive helper\\/ Not even gonna bother arguing just thought i would add that so I dont look like a dumbass


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Howard Gaines III said:


> Joby...thanks. I haven't been on here in a long time and haven't seen this, in fact I know sam as a former club member.
> 
> Folks who have seen me work my male Bouvier des Flandres KNOW I take safegards with this dog and with new helpers. Safeguards which include and not limited to: release of liability forms, lots of verbals and hands on demos with me decoying, and newbies catching on SHORT sends and with long lines. When we do K-9 demos, we take many safegaurds for public safety with all dogs.
> 
> ...



Was wondering something....is this common practice for the dog to go for the head/face area when a helper/decoy falls? was this a young dog being held by a leash or was the dog set loose on a certain amount of ft away from the helper/decoy...you say its not a sleeve happy/sports dog so is it safe to asume the dog had no reall experiance at all ? Im thinking here that inexperianced helper/decoy + dog that bites where the hell it can = ****up in the making? not trying to be judgefull here but thats what i read into it. you say risks increase when choosing to work nonsports hard strong dogs, I agree with that however they shouldnt increase so dramaticly that helpers/decoys get hurt or wounded to the point that blood is involved and skindamage is done.

as for the whole comment, when you catch long enough, you get bit, what a crock of shit that is....you do not start working long untill you are totaly and utterly sure that the dog will do what he has to do and nothing else, be it a green decoy or one with experiance...it just does not work that way. there is no need for bites out of the ordinary when doing decoy work, when that happens is is mostly handler ****up and no one elses, means the handler wasnt smart enough to use his head.....I dont care how many people say that the decoy can take it, or the decoy was cockey or whatever...its still the handlers choice to either send or not send the dog so I dont feel it is right to blame a decoy/helper for handler idiocy.

JMO


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: Some who weren't even there, about my dog being a face biter

Du was a "neck" biter. LOL I have no scars on my face, from Du, not ever. Never worried about Du, although she could be naughty if she thought that barking in the face was working out for her....... and then the no return.

Howard, you are calling them training bites now ? I remember when those were "live" bites according to you.

Alice, Howards dogs are "real". See what we have to deal with in the states ? "real" dogs will bite your head if you fall down. LOL


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Alice Bezemer said:


> as for the whole comment, when you catch long enough, you get bit, what a crock of shit that is....


I think it depends on the sport. In KNPV I wouldn't think accidental bites would be common for reasons other then handler error, or a dog not ready to be doing what it's doing, due to the nature of the targeting and decoy work.

But in a sport like French Ring, it is going to happen eventually. It's just the nature of the sport. You have a decoy trying to esquive the dog or otherwise keep them off the bite, you have a dog trying to counter the decoys moves and obtain the bite, there are going to be times when the dog is aiming for something, the decoy is moving, and an exposed body part gets bit instead of the suit. I don't know any FR decoy, who has been doing it for any length of time, who hasn't at some point been bit. Usually in the hand, but occasionally in the neck.


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> I think it depends on the sport. In KNPV I wouldn't think accidental bites would be common for reasons other then handler error, or a dog not ready to be doing what it's doing, due to the nature of the targeting and decoy work.
> 
> But in a sport like French Ring, it is going to happen eventually. It's just the nature of the sport. You have a decoy trying to esquive the dog or otherwise keep them off the bite, you have a dog trying to counter the decoys moves and obtain the bite, there are going to be times when the dog is aiming for something, the decoy is moving, and an exposed body part gets bit instead of the suit. I don't know any FR decoy, who has been doing it for any length of time, who hasn't at some point been bit. Usually in the hand, but occasionally in the neck.


I wholeheartedly agree with you on that, I just felt that the way the actual statement was used was a copout if you get what i mean 

Like saying...HEY its OK, it happens deal with it...which I dont agree with...then again i dont agree with much so maybe im being stubborn again :lol:


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: Some who weren't even there, about my dog being a face biter
> 
> Du was a "neck" biter. LOL I have no scars on my face, from Du, not ever. Never worried about Du, although she could be naughty if she thought that barking in the face was working out for her....... and then the no return.



Jeff,

Du wasn't a face biter, she was actually a chin biter (one time) and a neck scraper 
She only drew blood with Kevin when he forgot she was an
upper body dog and didn't lift the barrage quick enough. She was trying to avoid biting his face when she had no other target and scraped the side of his neck with her teeth. She did love getting decoys to flinch by barking in their faces


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