# Fair value of a fully trained PPD?



## fred karlsson

Lets use a 24 months old fully trained dog.

How many hrs is spent on training ?, use a realistic hourly cost inckluding sozializing.
Purchase cost of an untrained dog with potentiall ?
Cost of keeping it under training ?
Insurance, vet ?
etc etc ?

Also probability of not beeing able to convert the untrained dog into a PPD......


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## Thomas Barriano

fred karlsson said:


> Lets use a 24 months old fully trained dog.
> 
> How many hrs is spent on training ?, use a realistic hourly cost inckluding sozializing.
> Purchase cost of an untrained dog with potentiall ?
> Cost of keeping it under training ?
> Insurance, vet ?
> etc etc ?
> 
> Also probability of not beeing able to convert the untrained dog into a PPD......



Fred,

IMHO it is impossible to answer your question. The "value" of a PPD seems more dependent on the BS ability of the trainer/seller. With NO standards to compare the dogs with it is impossible to decide which PPD is a better deal.

If you need protection, buy a gun and learn how to use it.
If you have a problem using a gun then use a little common sense, avoid dangerous situations and pray a lot


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## Anne Vaini

I went to edit my response after some though about it, and left the edit window open too long!

This is what I ended up wanting to say: (Mods - can you delete previous post?) MOD NOTE: done!



fred karlsson said:


> Lets use a 24 months old fully trained dog.
> 
> How many hrs is spent on training ?, use a realistic hourly cost inckluding sozializing.
> Purchase cost of an untrained dog with potentiall ?
> Cost of keeping it under training ?
> Insurance, vet ?
> etc etc ?
> 
> Also probability of not beeing able to convert the untrained dog into a PPD......


Different venues, but some similarity here. I'm also looking at very specific dogs with high rates of wash-out. 10% wash out from breeding programs specifically for the purpose and when selected and raised by professional service dog trainers. 99(+)% wash out from second-hand dogs. I'm not making those numbers up... from studies I have forgotten the references to. 

I bring on untrained dogs from 6 weeks to 4 years. Many are rescues and free-to-good-home dogs. I've gotten good at selection testing and my washout rates is very low (since my washouts are often excellent Therapy Dog candidates which is the other part of what I do.) I get lucky, but I expect to pay $500 - $1000 for an untrained dog or puppy.

I allot 7 - 10 hours per week for training, although this is extremely easy to exceed. In this discipline, it is quite possible to document 8 - 9 hours of training for one dog in a one day. 

I don't have my broken down estimates in front of me, but for a 28 mo Service Dog, assuming a billing rate of $25/hr for training and $12.50/hr for administrative, and figuring just COST (not adding overhead and profit to everything) it is over $22,000.

If I am doing a board & train, a daily boarding fee applies. It is double for the first 90 days of board & train for a puppy or kennel dog. That covers "undocumented training" and extra handling for housetraining, etc.

I have been unsuccessful in finding insurance for an ALTERED dog. I can get coverage for an intact dog. ](*,)


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## Jeff Oehlsen

5,000 dollars


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## Butch Cappel

Fred,
I think Mr. Lou Castle answered our question in a previous post quote;

_Coming in quite a bit late on this and I know this is about PPD's but I think that the only significant difference between one and a PSD (Police Service Dog) should be that the latter must also know how to search for and find people.
_
That would be a pretty accurate description and a good way of setting a value for a good PPD. You would of course deduct some value for the training time for the, people finding and or dual purpose Detection/Patrol dog.

Most PSD trainers also train PPD. And it is true that PPD/PSD trainers don't participate in organized sports or their titles, their ability and integrity is usually measured by their time in business (I've been at it for thirty years or so)

You can also go to the K9 Pro Sports web page, www.k9ps.com and find a list of recognized trainers with their years of experience listed. If you just wanted to call and price shop or just ask some questions from people that rarely use the internet.

Of course you can always Google a trainers name these days and see what's been put on the web.

Good question, enjoy your PP posts. 

Butch Cappel
www.k9ps.com


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## fred karlsson

So the market cost for a PPD is 5000 - 25000 USD, large spread......


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## Gerry Grimwood

According to the information posted on Mike Suttles site, a true special forces type of dog is $10.000.00

* If * I was looking for a dog that had what it takes, I would look to someone like him. Now, whether or not he would sell a dog like that to someone for a PPD would be another question.

How much did you pay for the dog you have now Fred ?


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## fred karlsson

I paid 12,000 GBP + tax for my dog.


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## Gerry Grimwood

That's not bad if you got what you wanted, I'm on my 4th dog in 7 yrs and with the latest I think I have pretty much what I want.

At $2500 per pup total, it hasn't been cheap either.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

How much is that in Euro ??


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## Gerry Grimwood

13,910.41 EUR today.


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## Gerry Grimwood

19,614.79 usd


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Does that come with a trained rescue response team ??? If not, ouch.


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## Gerry Grimwood

Doesn't really matter, he spent 12,000 of his dollars which isn't bad if he got something decent.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

YES ! ! ! ! =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D>

Way to keep the price up. The PPD guys are all in the bathroom having a moment over that price. : )


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## Gerry Grimwood

LOL, I guess he could've bought a $10,000 USD dog from mike for 6,110.46 in pounds. Seems like a steal of a deal.

And no hand party involved.


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## Gerry Grimwood

Wait a minute, Fred I thought you are in Spain and you bought your dog from a person in the US, why did you pay in GBP ??

Ok, I saw you bought from the UK.


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## Chris McDonald

Lets see the videos!


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## mike suttle

Gerry Grimwood said:


> According to the information posted on Mike Suttles site, a true special forces type of dog is $10.000.00
> 
> *If *I was looking for a dog that had what it takes, I would look to someone like him. Now, whether or not he would sell a dog like that to someone for a PPD would be another question.
> 
> How much did you pay for the dog you have now Fred ?


I would NEVER, ever, EVER sell a true Special Forces type of dog to a pet / family / PP dog client.
Those two types of dogs are on opposite sides of the planet from each other.
I normally sell started "green" PPD prospects for around $5000-$6000 dollars depending on what the dog cost me of course.


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## fred karlsson

At first I thought it was expensive......now I think the dog was real value for money. After doing the math *realistically* you realize the amount of work and money thats gone into these dogs.


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## David Frost

Prices are a bear. Seems a green PSD dual purpose prospect is going for anywhere between 5 and 6 thousand. 

DFrost


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: I would NEVER, ever, EVER sell a true Special Forces type of dog to a pet / family / PP dog client.

What type is this ?? My buddies kid is in SF, and they asked if he wanted to get stationed at their new facility, but I have problems figuring what the heck they would need a dog for.


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## Al Curbow

Okay, lets have a business discussion, if you're earning your livelyhood selling dogs and you want to make money you sell any dog at the highest possible price to anyone as long as they have the cash, any other position is bullshit. That's how it really works. People make fun of Baden K9, they're raking it in, LOL. 

Seller " Oh, that one over there? Sorry, can't sell you that dog, he's a true Special Forces type dog" 

Buyer " how much?" LOL


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## Gary Garner

I consider my time spent, feeding, equipment etc as a hobby and don't really think of the costs.... some of my buddies play golf, others watch Soccer games and others do other hobbies that are more expensive - but are they as rewarding? (they probably think so, I don't)...

So the only real cost, and it doesn't feel like that was the initial price of Xena as a 10 week old pup, which was *£350*. ($578.50)(410.01 Euro)

All things considered, I think she was a bargain, eh? 8-[


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## mike suttle

Al Curbow said:


> Okay, lets have a business discussion, if you're earning your livelyhood selling dogs and you want to make money you sell any dog at the highest possible price to anyone as long as they have the cash, any other position is bullshit. That's how it really works. People make fun of Baden K9, they're raking it in, LOL.
> 
> Seller " Oh, that one over there? Sorry, can't sell you that dog, he's a true Special Forces type dog"
> 
> Buyer " how much?" LOL


Not exactly Al.
If you ask around I think you will find that many people have tried to buy dogs from me at prices higher than the intended customer pays, when I get a Customs dog, it goes to Customs, when I get a SF dog, it goes to SF. I have contractual obligations with agencies and I have to fill the quotas with dogs that pass the test.
if I sell a SF quality dog for $15,000 to someone else and it causes me to lose a contract becasue I did not fulfill the order what have I really gained?
I sell dogs that fit the description of what the customer wants, I dont even show them dogs that dont meet the description of what they told me they need.


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## jack van strien

I know the going prices for a certified KNPV dog,there is a difference between a good dog and a really good street dog.The price the handler gets is nowhere near the real value,most good dogs are already reserved by the police or army.
In Holland the training of police dogs is mostly done by ordinairy people or as the americans like to say, civilians.
The sport is to get your dog certified and then you sell and start all over again.It is a lot of work and you spend a lot of time driving also.It is more than a hobby, for most it is a lifestyle.I think if all the hours of training would have to be paid for the dogs would be worth their weight in gold.Imo if you spend money for a trained dog and you are actually safer then the price is not important.My dogs now only serve as an alarm,i have a poodle who yaps at anything but when the malinois join in the lights go on.


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## James Degale

Unless you have a group to train and are reasonably clued up about dogs and then you have little chance of putting some serious training into a pup or young dog at a bargain price.

Lets think about it, cost of pup, vet bills, insurance, feeding. Manpower say costed at £20/ per one and half hours, running a training facility, electricity, grounds maintainence, tax. It all adds up. 

For most people who are not into dogs in a serious way then paying for a PPD is worth it. If you are a busy professional or businessman with a family life, time is money. Do you want to spend every weekend in the rain and mud when you can be doing family activities in your precious weekends or working overtime? I don't see problem in paying a professional to buy a quality product, provided it is a quality product of course. I cannot build a fridge and have limited knowledge on how to fix my car. If I could I would. But this is life I have to pay to get these things done, I don't see the problem with people paying to get a professionally trained PPD, if that is your requirement.


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## Gary Garner

James Degale said:


> For most people who are not into dogs in a serious way then paying for a PPD is worth it. If you are a busy professional or businessman with a family life, time is money. Do you want to spend every weekend in the rain and mud when you can be doing family activities in your precious weekends or working overtime? I don't see problem in paying a professional to buy a quality product, provided it is a quality product of course. I cannot build a fridge and have limited knowledge on how to fix my car. If I could I would. But this is life I have to pay to get these things done, I don't see the problem with people paying to get a professionally trained PPD, if that is your requirement.


I agree with all your points James... but I'd like to add that IMHO a PPD is like a car. Without servicing, you'll find it unreliable.

Continuous training is the key, or else your PPD will devalue with each month, let alone year.


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## James Degale

Gary Garner said:


> Without servicing, you'll find it unreliable.
> 
> Continuous training is the key, or else your PPD will devalue with each month, let alone year.


Agreed, I think continuous training would be ideal. But it depends on the dog and the job. Basic ability should always be there, if you got the right makeup in the first place and the dog knows its job.


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## Howard Gaines III

Forget the videos, I'm have a circus moment and can't stop...:twisted:8)


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## David Frost

jack van strien said:


> I know the going prices for a certified KNPV dog,there is a difference between a good dog and a really good street dog.The price the handler gets is nowhere near the real value,most good dogs are already reserved by the police or army.
> In Holland the training of police dogs is mostly done by ordinairy people or as the americans like to say, civilians.
> The sport is to get your dog certified and then you sell and start all over again.It is a lot of work and you spend a lot of time driving also.It is more than a hobby, for most it is a lifestyle.I think if all the hours of training would have to be paid for the dogs would be worth their weight in gold.Imo if you spend money for a trained dog and you are actually safer then the price is not important.My dogs now only serve as an alarm,i have a poodle who yaps at anything but when the malinois join in the lights go on.


Very well said and perhaps one of the most misunderstood parts of the equation. It's why I say most of the dogs available through U.S. vendors are the top of the bottom of the barrel. 

DFrost


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## Thomas Barriano

Al Curbow said:


> Okay, lets have a business discussion, if you're earning your livelyhood selling dogs and you want to make money you sell any dog at the highest possible price to anyone as long as they have the cash, any other position is bullshit. That's how it really works. People make fun of Baden K9, they're raking it in, LOL.
> 
> Seller " Oh, that one over there? Sorry, can't sell you that dog, he's a true Special Forces type dog"
> 
> Buyer " how much?" LOL


Al

That reminds me to the story of the guy goes to a well known
breeder. He is shown a nice GSD and is told this is a very nice club level dog I'll take $2500 for him. Potential (unexperienced) buyer says "no I want a podium dog"
Breeder goes back into the kennel, comes back out with the
very same dog with a different color collar. Says "this is my best dog, sure to be a podium dog with the right trainer, but I need to get $3,500 for him" Buyer pulls out his
checkbook 
Sometimes you get what you pay for
Sometimes you make a dog into what you want depending on what you paid for him
Something like the Pygmalion effect


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## Kristina Senter

IMO, it depends greatly on the needs of the buyer. 
The more complex their needs= the more training needed or more time/money finding a dog suited specifically for them may = higher price. 

A completely green or weak handler that needs a manstopper (rape victim with a dangerous ex, for example) will need both a special dog and a lot of hours of handler training. Finding the right dog that is good with young kids, good with other intact males, with livestock or small pets, etc, before you even get into training *may* mean a different price. 

An "alert dog" may truly be all someone wants and needs for a "protection dog" and a barker that does not need to back himself up is cheap. A REALLY bad neighborhood and the need for a dog willing to fight, to clear a house before entry, food refusal trained, etc. will be a different ballgame.


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## fred karlsson

" think if all the hours of training would have to be paid for the dogs would be worth their weight in gold.Imo if you spend money for a trained dog and you are actually safer then the price is not important. "

A share your opinion........The likelyhood that the people that can train a good PPD and the people that need one is the same is very slim, hence the price.


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## Chris McDonald

fred karlsson said:


> " think if all the hours of training would have to be paid for the dogs would be worth their weight in gold.Imo if you spend money for a trained dog and you are actually safer then the price is not important. "
> 
> A share your opinion........The likelyhood that the people that can train a good PPD and the people that need one is the same is very slim, hence the price.


As some said here in a roundabout way, its worth what someone will pay. I really don’t know if many dog breeders/ trainers are “rolling in it”. If it is your true source of income I would think there is a lot to cover, and a lot of headaches after the sale. I would think people must think they are entitled to unlimited phone support for life once they get a dog from you. I have come to a conclusion long ago about what many think to be “cool jobs” and that is there tuff to make money at. A retired guy who opens a bait and tackle shop and to keep him busy is going to be tough to compete with. Taking care of and training anything for a year costs a lot if the time is put in. I can very easily see how big money needs to be charged to keep the lights on. For whatever the reason the dog hobbyist thinks the prices are ridicules, but they do not have to put food on the table with the time they spent training. From what little I have seen most people who buy these expensive dogs don’t spend nearly enough time learning basic handler skills and in most cases no time on maintenance work. 
I also know of local trainers who get dogs from wherever get it to bite and out on a sleeve in a few sessions and sell a $3000.00 protection trained dog.
Freed I would like to see a website of where you got your dog if possible. I would also like to see a few video clips of you and your dog. Many of us are still learning and making mistakes just post it and “f” everybody. 
I got a some video on one of my cameras that I can’t get on my wife’s apple, its not recognizing it for some reason. But when I do get it on there I will be posting a goony goofball video and I am looking forward to the rude comments. If you don’t have people telling you you’re a retart you’re not trying hard enough.


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## Chris McDonald

Gary Garner said:


> I consider my time spent, feeding, equipment etc as a hobby and don't really think of the costs.... some of my buddies play golf, others watch Soccer games and others do other hobbies that are more expensive - but are they as rewarding? (they probably think so, I don't)...
> 
> So the only real cost, and it doesn't feel like that was the initial price of Xena as a 10 week old pup, which was *£350*. ($578.50)(410.01 Euro)
> 
> All things considered, I think she was a bargain, eh? 8-[


Gary you and your dog are in your own category. Nobody needs you rubbing it in bragging about what a bargain you got! 
And I’m with you on the hobby thing; I spent a good bit on a trained dog that has kept me busy when I want to be and a good pet the rest of the time. Overall it was a lot cheaper than a boat or something and more convenient to use at this stage of life. My first priority was not a protection dog it was a hobby, but it’s nice to have a deterrent in the window when I spend time away from home. 
I am not big on having a sharp quick dog around and I don’t, I would have been fine with a dog that had no bite work at all. I don’t think guys like Jeff feel they even need a deterrent. Many of us know where he is coming from, before I had a wife and two daughters I would sleep with every window and door wide open and not think about a thing. Hell my friends would just walk in anytime make noise down stairs and crash and I wouldn’t get up to see what was going on. The deterrent just came with the hobby.


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## Gary Garner

Chris McDonald said:


> Gary you and your dog are in your own category. Nobody needs you rubbing it in bragging about what a bargain you got!


Oh, but I think they do.:-s In these times of recession, 'credit crunch' and worldwide financial insecurities - it's nice to know that not everything good in life costs a fortune.:razz:

Besides, I'm a northern man and we don't like parting with too much in the way of cash[-(
...call it 'careful with money'.:-k


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## Chris McDonald

Gary Garner said:


> Oh, but I think they do.:-s In these times of recession, 'credit crunch' and worldwide financial insecurities - it's nice to know that not everything good in life costs a fortune.:razz:
> 
> Besides, I'm a northern man and we don't like parting with too much in the way of cash[-(
> ...call it 'careful with money'.:-k


 
You guys are impressive. You can’t put a price on the enjoyment you get out of your dog. like I said about you in the past “wife and dog missing… reward for dog”


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## mike suttle

David Frost said:


> Very well said and perhaps one of the most misunderstood parts of the equation. It's why I say most of the dogs available through U.S. vendors are the top of the bottom of the barrel.
> 
> DFrost


You are correct. For us to get the great dogs we have to be willing to pay more than the police in Holland are paying. Sometimes we have to pay a lot more becasue for the folks who train and title their dogs it is a matter of personal pride to be able to say that they titled their dog and then it was selected and bought by the police there.
You have KNPV titled dogs, and then you have KNPV titled dogs who are real street worthy police dogs. The police in Holland are now paying about 4500 Euros for the best dogs, sometimes a handler will find a really super dog and he will add another 500-1000 Euros from his pocket to the price his department will pay just to make sure he can get the dog to use as his police dog.
That means that a great police dog titled in KNPV can sell to the police in Holland for up to 5500 Euros (about $7700 USD). SO if I buy that dog I have to pay at least $7700 pllus about $1200 for shipping, crate, Customs broker fees, travel to the airport, etc. That means that the great KNPV titled dogs can cost me about $8900 to get to my door. I can buy KNPV titled dogs much cheaper, but those are the ones the police dont want, so they are also the ones that I dont care to buy either.


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## Ian Forbes

Gary Garner said:


> Oh, but I think they do.:-s In these times of recession, 'credit crunch' and worldwide financial insecurities - it's nice to know that not everything good in life costs a fortune.:razz:
> 
> *Besides, I'm a northern man and we don't like parting with too much in the way of cash[-(*
> *...call it 'careful with money'*.:-k


Yorkshiremen....like Scots, only without the generosity!


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## R Janssen

Mike, Just out of curiosity, how many of the KNPV certified dogs can you place at L.E. homes.?


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## Chris McDonald

Ian Forbes said:


> Yorkshiremen....like Scots, only without the generosity!


This is funny


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## jack van strien

Mike,
Sometimes the police dont buy dogs because they are too difficult to handle and very high maintenance training wise.I have seen some great dogs being turned down because of this.Some old school dogs are oneman dogs and demand for them is not that great.A friend of mine always ended up with difficult dogs and after he got them certified he often had a hard time selling them and some ended up in junkyards.Also dogs with broken teeth are not in great demand but can be perfect working dogs.


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## fred karlsson

Had hard time following the line of thought for a while, starting out with a pure GSD or like wise from Check rep. is not the same as the average dog from a shelter. 

I guess it´s like the old saying "garbage in garbage out"

Come on selling a fully trained PPD for 5000K usd...................does any one in this forum beleave that?


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## Gerry Grimwood

fred karlsson said:


> Come on selling a fully trained PPD for 5000K usd...................does any one in this forum beleave that?


Considering the fact that most PPD's never are tested...yes.


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## Gillian Schuler

What would interest me, is what the "continual training" of a PPD exists of?? 

If you have to train a dog to be a PPD, I guess the training never stops for obvious reasons.

When we talked about PPD dogs earlier on this forum, the general opinion was (which I wholeheartedly share), the dog brings it to the table.

What sort of contrinual training does the "natural" PPD that brings it to the table look like. If the dog naturally brings it to the table, I would assume finess exercises, i.e. biting exercise, as only so can you train the muscles needed for this.

So here, the provocational sentence:

If a dog's got it, it's got it, and only old age will cause problems?????


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## Kadi Thingvall

fred karlsson said:


> Come on selling a fully trained PPD for 5000K usd...................does any one in this forum beleave that?


Depends on what you consider a "fully trained PPD" but sure, I've seen dogs that I would consider a fully trained PPD sell for less then that.


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## Debbie Skinner

This site has been up for quite awhile. Check out the Titan - Protection dog $85K-$125K
http://www.lifestylepets.com/


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## Anne Jones

Hurry, Hurry, HURRY.....Buy a Titan Ultimate for only $125,000.....

There's a SUCKER born every minute !!!!! I wonder if they EVER really sell one of those things?


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## Connie Sutherland

Anne Jones said:


> Hurry, Hurry, HURRY.....Buy a Titan Ultimate for only $125,000.....
> 
> There's a SUCKER born every minute !!!!! I wonder if they EVER really sell one of those things?



They have close-out specials. You can grab a $125K dog for under $100K when the new models come out!


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## fred karlsson

there are 12 in my area.........


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## Jeff Oehlsen

PT Barnum still has his dick in your ass.

20,000.

I want to see a video of this dog working with you. I also want to see if I can see ol' PT slapping your ass as his ghost walks behind you.


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## Sheldon Little

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> PT Barnum still has his dick in your ass.
> 
> 20,000.
> 
> I want to see a video of this dog working with you. I also want to see if I can see ol' PT slapping your ass as his ghost walks behind you.


As much as I usually dissagree with "trash talking" I can't agree more with this. 20,000? OUCH. Even state side, I'll see some amazing imports  that are less than half that. Euro line US born dogs are even less and will do what ever you want to train into them. As for the titan 125K, thats sad that someone is trying to take advantage of stupid people willing to pay that much. Wait is there any one that dumb?


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## Gillian Schuler

If there is, my guess is they won't be admitting it now:mrgreen::mrgreen::mrgreen:


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## Gerry Grimwood

fred karlsson said:


> there are 12 in my area.........


Probably all have Phillipino nannys as well, ya gotta go big or go home when it comes to status symbols.


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## Sheldon Little

So buy a 1500-5000 green dog, train it, throw a Coach collar on it, and bam! $20,000-$125K... you're rich and made someone else look like a jack ass.


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## Chris McDonald

If you do some simple math of someone raising a dog from a puppy, feeding it, boarding and training it till it’s a year or a year and a half old there is a lot involved. From the trying to make ends meet side you would have to charge a lot of money. I spent more than I ever thought I would on a mutt then I spent more to learn how to play with the mutt. My total is well under 20g for the dog and training and to me it was worth it. I understand you can join a weekend club and learn for less, but my schedule doesn’t allow for it and it cost more to learn around a schedule that I want. In the process the dog also became imprinted and trained on 4 drugs for the fun of it. I did this as a hobby for myself. It was still much cheaper than a boat or a car as a hobby and less of a pain in the ass. All my training money did not go to the place that I got my dog from but also to local trainers. The only thing I would want different is for my dog to be 50 pounds instead of the 70 +/- that he is (maybe the next one), I still got to weigh him. But I would rather a bigger dog that fits the family better than a smaller one that does not work. I had the dog for about two years and if you don’t make it a hobby and take time to learn what you can, you’re really not doing any justice for the money you spent. That’s OK too I don’t care what anyone does with their money. Once a dog has a foundation and the owner understands it is fairly easy for the owner to teach the dog new tricks, it’s that foundation that is important and id just rather get a dog with one in it. 
Agility, protection, multiple targets, muzzle work, clearing your house 1st floor 2n floor, basement etc., should be in any expensive trained dog. I think the harder part is for the owner to learn the skills needed to maintain and better the dog over time. 

These Sch 3 dogs for 100g? There is no justifying, 

Fred I still want to see the video, Love to see what a dogs got. Set up the webcam


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## Sheldon Little

Wait so if isn't an import it's garbage and is from the pound??? Interesting concept since I imagine there are very few if any dogs working for people on this forum from the pound.

This kind of reminds me of Jaguars (the cars) of years past: pretty and expensive but will spend half the time you own it in the mechanics garage. Now in NO way am I saying imported dog are bad because that is the opposite from the truth. But a Honda from the same era will last longer than the Jag. Just because you spent more doesn't mean you received more. I can think of a hand full of dogs that cost their handlers a fraction of what a $20,000+ dog cost that are just as if not more impressive.

Sure you can say your dog was expensive, but did you get what you payed for when compared to other options?


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## Connie Sutherland

Sheldon Little said:


> ... I imagine there are very few if any dogs working for people on this forum from the pound. ...



Few, maybe -- but definitely some, including PSDs.




P.S. If you include service dogs, such as Hearing, Seeing, Seizure-Alert, etc., then there's more than a few.


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## Chris McDonald

Connie Sutherland said:


> Few, maybe -- but definitely some, including PSDs.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P.S. If you include service dogs, such as Hearing, Seeing, Seizure-Alert, etc., then there's more than a few.


So you’re saying blind people get the bottom of the bucket? :?::smile:


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## Kyle Sprag

Kadi Thingvall said:


> Depends on what you consider a "fully trained PPD" but sure, I've seen dogs that I would consider a fully trained PPD sell for less then that.


 
I have had 4 Malionis ranging from ages 3 to 7 yeas of age that I would consider a trained PPD that I or someone purchased for much less than 5K US.

Two were ex PSD with KNVP PH1 with live bites

One was a KNPV line PSA 1 with live bites

One was a French line dog


----------



## Gerry Grimwood

Kyle Sprag said:


> I have had 4 Malionis ranging from ages 3 to 7 yeas of age that I would consider a trained PPD that I or someone purchased for much less than 5K US.
> 
> Two were ex PSD with KNVP PH1 with live bites
> 
> One was a KNPV line PSA 1 with live bites
> 
> One was a French line dog


Look what you could get for them.............. http://www.protectiondogs.com/personal_and_executive_protection_dogs_for_sale.shtml

The top 3 Mals are the most expensive, boggles the mind.


----------



## Kyle Sprag

Gerry Grimwood said:


> Look what you could get for them.............. http://www.protectiondogs.com/personal_and_executive_protection_dogs_for_sale.shtml
> 
> The top 3 Mals are the most expensive, boggles the mind.


 
LOL, yeh some people have more money than brains.

I had a friend many years ago that wanted to sell me his Long Hair DS that was a real nice dog. Titled PSA 1 at 13 months old for around 3K. 6 months later he sold him to some wealthy goof for 12K. The guy with THRILLED with the dog but a couple years later forgot him in his Hummer in the summer time and killed the dog. 

Same guy has since gone through a couple of other dogs he paid in the 8K to 10K range. One thing though, these were/are ALL very good dogs.


----------



## Sheldon Little

Connie Sutherland said:


> Few, maybe -- but definitely some, including PSDs.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P.S. If you include service dogs, such as Hearing, Seeing, Seizure-Alert, etc., then there's more than a few.


 That's very true and I have seen a Mal from the pound get picked up by a local trainer and sold as a police prospect, but I never ended up keeping tabs to see if he made it. Last I saw he was a pretty decent dog that had some great potential. I guess I put my foot in my mouth with that earlier post. 

As for the service dogs, great point. That didn't even cross my mind with all the PPD/PSD talk.


----------



## Bob Scott

PPD for sale!
I've got a bargan basement, one eyed, deaf, gimpy, 12 yr old JRT that will bite the ass off of dragon. 
4-5 good yrs left. I'll let him go for $19.95 but you'll have to come get him. I'm afraid to get close enough to put a collar on him. Not good for families with kids, dogs, cats, old folks, friends, enimies, or any live 
adult human beings.
Put a 12 ft fence, with razor wire (to keep the dog from going over the top) around your house and turn him loose. 
Included in the purchase is a free slingshot to feed the little psyco little bassid!
P.S.
You also have to remove a dead dragon from my yard. Damn dog wont let me get near it! 
:-k Great OG! :wink:


----------



## Chris McDonald

Kyle Sprag said:


> I have had 4 Malionis ranging from ages 3 to 7 yeas of age that I would consider a trained PPD that I or someone purchased for much less than 5K US.
> 
> Two were ex PSD with KNVP PH1 with live bites
> 
> One was a KNPV line PSA 1 with live bites
> 
> One was a French line dog


 
You got to realize it’s your industry, you’re in the dog world, and you got the connections. Its kind of like what a mechanic charges a buddy who is kind of a mechanic, Compared to someone who just needs work done on their car. Plus you friend trained his dog as a hobby not as a profit making venture. If in one thread the talk is that second rate green dogs are 7g how is out of the question that a trained dog cost more?


----------



## Kyle Sprag

Chris McDonald said:


> You got to realize it’s your industry, you’re in the dog world, and you got the connections. Its kind of like what a mechanic charges a buddy who is kind of a mechanic, Compared to someone who just needs work done on their car. Plus you friend trained his dog as a hobby not as a profit making venture. If in one thread the talk is that second rate green dogs are 7g how is out of the question that a trained dog cost more?


I don't think I would call it "my industry", good dogs come and go from a lot of different sources. I like to think I know what I am looking at to a certain level and have friends that can do that as well. I do believe 7K for a "second rate green dog" is silly.


My mental picture is that if someone tells me they paid 3k to 5K for a nice young dog they got a OK deal if the dog meets their expectations.


----------



## fred karlsson

Since many in the forum does not value their time in USD I would like to rephrase the question: How long does it take to train a PPD worthy its name and from what age would you start?


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen

What are you, mental ?? There are at least 500 posts on that very subject.

Show me a video of your dog working so I can see how I am "devalueing"
my training.

I have a feeling that my dog is getting more valuable by the second.

That would be a cool thread. We get a video of Freddy's dog, and then we show a video of our dogs, and then we get a value system going.


----------



## Sheldon Little

I don't think this should be a "who's dog is better" thing, but more who got a better bang for their buck. I know that a person who drops $20,000+ doesn't know much about dogs or they wouldn't get taken to the cleaners like that. But it is interesting seeing dogs that aren't from famous lines, but turn out to be amazing working dogs. I do want to see the video though... just to see what $20,000 looks like and we can compare.


----------



## Chris McDonald

Sheldon I don’t think this about whose dog is better. I think everyone agrees that a skilled person can take the right dog out of the pound work with him and have a great dog for real cheap. But if good dogs are so cheap why are the police paying 6 or 7g for a green dog that was not wanted by anyone oversees? Then the dog and handler have to go through training. I have seen a few of these green dogs and I would not pay $7,000 for them before or after the training. But due to budget reasons the cops got to keep it. So how is a dog that should be capable of doing almost everything a cop k9 can do (in theory) and still be good with the family not worth a few bucks? I have not been around maybe 20 police dogs most of them cost a good deal of money some were good, many aren’t worth 2 cents as a police dog or a pet…. I still don’t know if was a shity dog or a shity owner. If you click around online you can find “trained” drug dogs for as low as $3,000.00. I don’t know if they are any better or worse than a $7,000.00 import that needs many hours of training. Many of you guys have better connections than me to get what you want. When I look at the selection and work needed to make my dog do what he does, I’ll gladly pay what I did. What the hell was the question again; I forgot what I was trying to get at……….. I kind of think the term personal protection dog is a bit goofy and over used. In the countries/ places people really may need them I don’t know how effective they are? It kind of makes no sense that if someone want to kill you, they will be to nice to your dogs? I would think you would need to have at least 7 dogs and that’s only if the bad guy has a 6 shooter. What the hell am I talking about?.. My dog is a family pet that can do fun stuff.


----------



## Kyle Sprag

"But if good dogs are so cheap why are the police paying 6 or 7g for a green dog that was not wanted by anyone oversees?"

I don't think there is the damand overseas, nor to I think you can't import a very good dog for a decent price.

What makes you thing a police department knows what they are looking at when purchasing a dog? Some are very good many others not.


----------



## fred karlsson

Jeff you and your dogs are not worth a penny, you spent a life time on these pages posting you do not beleave a dog (let a lone you own) would even bite a fully masked burgluar kidnapping your kids in the middle of the night.................no wonder you value them less than a pedegree cat. Then you piss your self like a GSD in shame when ever a K9 officer tell you off 

Oh, by the way why are you not posting a video evidence of your dogs chewing up a decoy in your home.............might it be your 1000 post bitching about law sutes........ pathetic.


----------



## Chris McDonald

Kyle Sprag said:


> "But if good dogs are so cheap why are the police paying 6 or 7g for a green dog that was not wanted by anyone oversees?"
> 
> I don't think there is the damand overseas, nor to I think you can't import a very good dog for a decent price.
> 
> What makes you thing a police department knows what they are looking at when purchasing a dog? Some are very good many others not.


Your right many have way less knowledge than guys like you, but they are paying 6 or 7 grand. They’re paying it hoping to improve their chances of having a good finished dog. But that is certainly not the case all the time, and then there stuck trying to make a police k9 out of the dog for 10 years. I do think that you can get a better fully trained dog for half that cost. I can’t. A skilled guy might be better checking the local pound every once in a while than getting a green import. I don’t know where the hell I am going with this, but all I can say is I am content paying what I did for my dog. I am not a big spender flashy kind of guy at all and I thought long and hard before I dropped that kind of money. It wasn’t much more than a green import but he had a good bit more training and more importantly fit the family life. I did see the $30,000+ dogs but could not make the math make since. My dog probably does not have what you would be looking for in a dog, I think he is more laid back than what you need for your high end sports. As you know he was not bread to be a sports dog. But when you have limited contacts and knowledge sometimes you need to spend a few more bucks making you an easy target to get ripped off. I would still like a little Dutch shepherd and I will do what I did last time over again. I might be able to get the dog a bit younger and with some less training under its belt and a few bucks cheaper because I can now add bits and pieces and have fun doing it. If I got a dog from the same place as last time and understand its foundation I can teach house/ building searches, steep up the agility etc. maybe not to the point of winning a ribbon but to the point of having a good time and getting some satisfaction out of it. Maybe someday not in the near future I will be able to screw one up from a puppy. I paid what I thought was a fair number for the amount of money and time was put into the dog by someone trying to put food on the table with their dogs. I actually think it was a very fair price for what I got compared to others I have seen. My dog does not have some family history of ribbon winners, and your really gona laugh when I tell you I never had his hips and elbows x-rayed. I might just for the fun on it one day. I have a good time comparing the differences in my dog and my father’s dog that has the whole sport family tree thing going, I posted his tree and would like to hear if people think there good lines or not just so I can learn a bit. There totally different dogs in many ways 
Damit Fred show the video


----------



## fred karlsson

sport dogs are not PPD.......they are smarter than their owners, why protect them.


----------



## Chris McDonald

fred karlsson said:


> Jeff you and your dogs are not worth a penny, you spent a life time on these pages posting you do not beleave a dog (let a lone you own) would even bite a fully masked burgluar kidnapping your kids in the middle of the night.................no wonder you value them less than a pedegree cat. Then you piss your self like a GSD in shame when ever a K9 officer tell you off
> 
> Oh, by the way why are you not posting a video evidence of your dogs chewing up a decoy in your home.............might it be your 1000 post bitching about law sutes........ pathetic.


 
You don’t have to show bite work, show a house search without a bite. Show some obedience and control just show something aint nothing wrong with that. And I think Jeff is right many dogs won’t bite. I think you can increase the chances with specific training and it’s a lot of maintenance. You might be surprised if someone walked in your house with a hidden sleeve and a mask on only to have nothing happen. Personally I would not want my dog to bite; some dum scumbag who is taking my TV, they can have what is in my house. Of course if it’s my family getting dragged out I would want any help I can get. But mathematically this is so unlikely it’s not worth the responsibility of having a sharp dog around.


----------



## fred karlsson

" You might be surprised if someone walked in your house with a hidden sleeve and a mask on only to have nothing happen"

Tried it once so far and my dog nailed him.........going to try it again in a months time, if he lets them in licking and walking my kids out the door I will put him to sleep. you sports guys dont get it........I do not play for ribbons and points.


----------



## Chris McDonald

So you want your dog to tag anything that walks in your house without your introduction? I know it can be done it’s just not what I would want


----------



## Kyle Sprag

fred karlsson said:


> " You might be surprised if someone walked in your house with a hidden sleeve and a mask on only to have nothing happen"
> 
> Tried it once so far and my dog nailed him.........going to try it again in a months time, if he lets them in licking and walking my kids out the door I will put him to sleep. you sports guys dont get it........I do not play for ribbons and points.


 
Well, if all the guy walked in with was a Hidden Sleeve and didn't leave in an Ambulance, you don't have what I would call a PP dog. [-X


----------



## Chris McDonald

Kyle Sprag said:


> Well, if all the guy walked in with was a Hidden Sleeve and didn't leave in an Ambulance, you don't have what I would call a PP dog. [-X


 
It’s a good point, you got one of these silly bite and hold dogs?


----------



## fred karlsson

Yes, but he would probably not do it to people well known to us, but at least it would narrow the search.


----------



## Gerry Grimwood

fred karlsson said:


> Tried it once so far and my dog nailed him.........going to try it again in a months time, if he lets them in licking and walking my kids out the door I will put him to sleep. you sports guys dont get it........I do not play for ribbons and points.


From Mar 29/09 to Aug 29/09 you have changed from a person asking about the benefits of owning a PPD to someone that doesn't play for ribbons or points.

Seems kinda silly doesn't it ??


----------



## Kyle Sprag

Chris McDonald said:


> It’s a good point, you got one of these silly bite and hold dogs?


I don't think it a question of Bite and Hold if it is working but if the dog is being Tested to the extent that some claim the dog Should NOT stay just on a Hidden Sleeve. JMO

I had a experienced decoy atempt to correct a dog I had by the collar, the dog had complete control of the situation but came off and the guy damn near lost the use of his hand. He ended up buying the dog from me a year or so later.


----------



## fred karlsson

From Mar 29/09 to Aug 29/09 you have changed from a person asking about the benefits of owning a PPD to someone that doesn't play for ribbons or points.

Seems kinda silly doesn't it ??


Quite simple, by reading the forum headings.


----------



## Dwyras Brown

Fair value is what the buyer wants to pay plain and simple. You have rich guys like Shaq who pay $25,000 and more for a dog. He could probably get it for a lot less, just for advertising rights. But he wants to pay $25,ooo why argue with him. A smrt person would just take the money and give him the dog. The money doesn't matter to him or a lot of other rich people. Its just like the people who pay $2,000 for a f&%@ing lap dog. It's what they want to pay.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: Oh, by the way why are you not posting a video evidence of your dogs chewing up a decoy in your home.............might it be your 1000 post bitching about law sutes........ pathetic.

So, you did the deadly hidden sleeve test. How did the dog know which arm to bite ?? LOL

Here is your basic problem. You know absolutely nothing at all about the training of dogs either basic OB, or the work that goes into training a dog to protect someone.

You are quoting someone else, and badly I might add.

I do not have enough knowledge in the history of spain to discuss various times places or wars, so I do not do it. LOL

It is just goofy to think that you did not get ****ed in this deal for 20 ****ing thousand dollars.

Just show me a video, one video of your dog working and protecting you.

Look at it this way. You can say I am an asshole, and a **********, and a jerkoff all you want, but one thing you cannot say is that I do not know what I am talking about when it comes to training dogs. Well, you can, but you would be dead wrong, which brings me to my point.

If you show us a video of your dog working, at least you will have some for real people, with real experience telling you what is up.

I do not want to see your children, or anyones children hurt, kidnapped or any stupid shit like that. Childhood is for runnning amok, and monkeybars and swings and shit like that.

Show the video, and we will be able to tell you. It is not like it is just me on this board, there are others that will tell you what you want to see.

I don't want to buy a gun with a weak firing pin, and find out....Oooops, shit don't work right.


----------



## Gary Garner

I have to agree that videos of dogs working help everyone...

Post up a video Fred, of your dog doing any sort of man work. Even if it's a an overt sleeve - anything will do. So perhaps some people can confirm what you've got or perhaps suggest ways that you could better your dog. Training and improvement are the key to dog training and PP work is no different.

Perhaps I put up more videos than most, and put myself (and Xena) in the firing line for criticism, but I also learn so much from people's views and opinions of what they see in my training. It's like having several hundred people with you on the field. Someone will see something that you can better or tweak for perfection. If someone busts your balls unnecessarily, ignore their comments and concentrate on the ones you think are constructive..

So go for it Fred...post some videos and lets all learn, including you mate.

Regards and respect.

Gary


----------



## Chris McDonald

Gary Garner said:


> I have to agree that videos of dogs working help everyone...
> 
> Post up a video Fred, of your dog doing any sort of man work. Even if it's a an overt sleeve - anything will do. So perhaps some people can confirm what you've got or perhaps suggest ways that you could better your dog. Training and improvement are the key to dog training and PP work is no different.
> 
> Perhaps I put up more videos than most, and put myself (and Xena) in the firing line for criticism, but I also learn so much from people's views and opinions of what they see in my training. It's like having several hundred people with you on the field. Someone will see something that you can better or tweak for perfection. If someone busts your balls unnecessarily, ignore their comments and concentrate on the ones you think are constructive..
> 
> So go for it Fred...post some videos and lets all learn, including you mate.
> 
> Regards and respect.
> 
> Gary


Go ahead Gary tell everyone how your great dog was $500 bucks. We all want to hear it again! :lol:


----------



## Gary Garner

Chris McDonald said:


> Go ahead Gary tell everyone how your great dog was $500 bucks. We all want to hear it again! :lol:


#-o I can't mention my bargain :-\":-#
There is a 'credit crunch' recession, you know....
:mrgreen:


----------



## Gillian Schuler

You can't take this for Gospel, but roughly speaking a police dog training takes 2-3 years for the most versatile type of police dog, i.e. Schutzhund, as this includes tracking, searching, etc. Drug dogs, 12 months in comparison. The "rough" price is 7-10 000 Euros, i.e. 10 000 Euros = 14 000 USD.Annual testing trials round up this packet. I guess however they're not for sale but this is what I'd be spending my money on if they were and one who'd already had some practice for real!!!!!


----------



## Dan Long

This is a little OT, but earlier in the thread it was mentioned how, in order to get a top line KNPV type dog, that you'd have to outbid the Dutch police. The Netherlands is a tiny country- just how many great dogs do they need and how often are they being replaced if it's near impossible to get a top line pick of the litter type dog outside of the country? 

I'd be interested in seeing a vid of Fred's dog as well. It'd give me something to compare my $600 pet to.


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: 
You can't take this for Gospel, but roughly speaking a police dog training takes 2-3 years for the most versatile type of police dog, i.e. Schutzhund, as this includes tracking, searching, etc. Drug dogs, 12 months in comparison. The "rough" price is 7-10 000 Euros, i.e. 10 000 Euros = 14 000 USD.Annual testing trials round up this packet. I guess however they're not for sale but this is what I'd be spending my money on if they were and one who'd already had some practice for real!!!!!

And beautifully trained by morons that have trouble teaching a ****ing stay. =D>=D>=D>=D>=D>=D>

IF the dog was trained within an inch of his life by one of the best in the world, starting as a puppy, then there is a possibility that the dog might be worth half the money Fred payed.

THen there are the talentless ****s that charge 8000 dollars for a green dog that the PD falls for and buys.

In the past I was willing to let some dogs go that were suitable for police work for the puppy price, and they were well trained dogs. They must of been former military supply specialists, as they past them up, and bought dogs that knew nothing, and when I trained with them 6 months later, I would not have given a wooden nickel for the dogs.

I did sell the dogs, and they got great homes doing something else.

The world is crazy....right ???


----------



## fred karlsson

ok, lets see if I can get something on tape for you to bitch about. Will be a while though.


----------



## Gerry Grimwood

fred karlsson said:


> ok, lets see if I can get something on tape for you to bitch about. Will be a while though.


Why ?? Do you have to train for it :razz:


----------



## Gary Garner

fred karlsson said:


> ok, lets see if I can get something on tape for you to bitch about. Will be a while though.


I'm sure nobody will bitch Fred.. That's not the spirit of this place....

Post a video, of substantial length and who knows...perhaps you and your dog might benefit from any insights that are given.

Gary


----------



## fred karlsson

I have no decoy, except from my mother in law that is


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen

Suit her up, and get to filming.

Make sure she knows the secret word, have her repeat GACK GACK GACK as loud as she can.


----------



## Gerry Grimwood

fred karlsson said:


> Tried it once so far and my dog nailed him.........going to try it again in a months time, if he lets them in licking and walking my kids out the door I will put him to sleep. you sports guys dont get it........I do not play for ribbons and points.


Can't you get this guy again ??


----------



## Chris McDonald

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Suit her up, and get to filming.
> 
> Make sure she knows the secret word, have her repeat GACK GACK GACK as loud as she can.


 
No suits for mother in-laws


----------



## Chris McDonald

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote:
> You can't take this for Gospel, but roughly speaking a police dog training takes 2-3 years for the most versatile type of police dog, i.e. Schutzhund, as this includes tracking, searching, etc. Drug dogs, 12 months in comparison. The "rough" price is 7-10 000 Euros, i.e. 10 000 Euros = 14 000 USD.Annual testing trials round up this packet. I guess however they're not for sale but this is what I'd be spending my money on if they were and one who'd already had some practice for real!!!!!
> 
> And beautifully trained by morons that have trouble teaching a ****ing stay. =D>=D>=D>=D>=D>=D>
> 
> IF the dog was trained within an inch of his life by one of the best in the world, starting as a puppy, then there is a possibility that the dog might be worth half the money Fred payed.
> 
> THen there are the talentless ****s that charge 8000 dollars for a green dog that the PD falls for and buys.
> 
> In the past I was willing to let some dogs go that were suitable for police work for the puppy price, and they were well trained dogs. They must of been former military supply specialists, as they past them up, and bought dogs that knew nothing, and when I trained with them 6 months later, I would not have given a wooden nickel for the dogs.
> 
> I did sell the dogs, and they got great homes doing something else.
> 
> The world is crazy....right ???


What do you figure your knowledge and time is worth on the open market, about a $0.25 per hour or what?


----------



## Howard Gaines III

*The Netherlands is a tiny country- just how many great dogs do they need and how often are they being replaced if it's near impossible to get a top line pick of the litter type dog outside of the country? 
*
They have sex bars and "other" activities in this country...policing the activities might take the best dogs in the world. Now, about window shopping!!!


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: What do you figure your knowledge and time is worth on the open market, about a $0.25 per hour or what?

Couple of long lines, couple of leashes, and 4 collars. : )


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## Chris McDonald

Always a smart ass answer :-D


----------



## fred karlsson

Where can I find the videos of PPD working posted by members?


----------



## Jerry Lyda

I put some on but just where I don't remember. I put them up to show my input on police dogs attacking the man on the bottom of a fight even if it was his handler. Maybe someone can tell us where.


----------



## Bob Scott

here's one Jerry. Not sure if it's THE one though.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JxB-_8VbIA8&feature=email


----------



## Sheldon Little

fred karlsson said:


> Where can I find the videos of PPD working posted by members?


try down by my signature...


----------



## Drew Peirce

Nice work sheldon


----------



## Sheldon Little

Drew Peirce said:


> Nice work sheldon


thanks drew


----------



## Sheldon Little

Phheww it's been a while since this thread has been used. Still want to see $20K working.


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## fred karlsson

showing video Naro ripping decoys apart would be legal suicide.........anyone thinking A1K9 supply shit dogs are free to visit www.a1k9.com premises in wales. That is if you would like a real dog that is.


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen

Or, showing your dog doing a half assed job would be forum suicide. 

You are a follower for sure. Let me guess the guy told you not to show video. LOL


----------



## Chris McDonald

I’d love to see video of anything it doesn’t have to be of your dog “ripping decoys apart”. Although I have never seen a decoy get “ripped apart” it would be interesting to see. What else does the dog do? Perimeter search? Interior search? Agility? Take a video of anything. The website says it takes about 8 weeks to make a dog trained as a protection dog. They must be real good at training dogs


----------



## Gerry Grimwood

fred karlsson said:


> showing video Naro ripping decoys apart would be legal suicide..........


Thank you Fred, that will keep me laughing all week end.


----------



## Sheldon Little

How is ripping decoys apart legal suicide? Do your decoys not wear any gear? Or does your dog have lasers that shoot out of it's eyes? (hey for 20K that better come standard) I'm just very confused and now I NEED to see this dog working just to sort things out.


----------



## Mike Lauer

*Dr. Evil voice*
all I asked for was sharks with lasers in their head
can someone throw me a bone here


----------



## Sheldon Little

Haha Mike.... thats all I could think of after typing that. Hey what weekend is the Sun Dog trial again?


----------



## Chris McDonald

Fred, Just post a few videos of the dog doing anything. Its your dog you like it who cares what anyone says. You cant ever please guys like Jeff anyway. You could post a video of your dog changing a car tire and Jeff will tell you he’s doing it wrong… bad nerves when he jacked the car up, bad grip on the jack and didn’t out with the lug wrench right.


----------



## Sheldon Little

fred karlsson said:


> That is if you would like a real dog that is.


You really like digging your self into a hole of d-bagness. You won't show a video of your dog working yet you talk it up to be some dog that no one in their right mind could possibly decoy. So there is one more point that you have no idea what you are talking about. Then you make points that you dog is the most amazing dog in the world and that everyone else on this forums dogs are garbage. Remember these are people who's lives are based on training working dogs. You are not at a PetsMart beginner training session here bud. You are the one that bought a dog that already was traind... so what do you possibly know about working dog besides what some salesman pitched at you and you read out of their broucure.

This is not the place to act like you are hot sh*t when you clearly know nothing. I know when I am talking to someone that knows clearly more than me, and you know what I *don't* do when I come across people like that... bad mouth their dogs and talk mine up. Why? Because then you look like a no nothing prick.


----------



## Gary Garner

Chris McDonald said:


> Fred, Just post a few videos of the dog doing anything.


Yes, Fred..please..post anything.. Us guys just want to see your dog in motion.. 



Chris McDonald said:


> You cant ever please guys like Jeff anyway. You could post a video of your dog changing a car tire and Jeff will tell you he’s doing it wrong…


I'll have to beg to differ on that... Jeff likes many dogs.. He just likes the really good ones...that's all..O:mrgreen:


----------



## fred karlsson

Just replied to a question why I have not posted any Youtube videos. Was not me that started the scare of suing if a dog bite an intruder, good point though, did not think of it at first.

Further it is not probable that the same person that got the skill to train a PPD would be the one that need one.

Most advice I have gotten when I asked if I should buy a PPD were complete bullshit. It is worth it though since I got very good advice when asking for tactics in a previous lead.

To bad you can´t ask questions if you do not post videos! you should put it in large capitals before signing up.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Chickenshit, you got ****ed and are afraid to post your prancy pony dog. Piss off.


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## Al Curbow

Don't sweat it Fred, there's a few others that talk a good game but refuse to put up a video, LOL.


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## fred karlsson

Jeff

You must be a true Idiot thinking you can sell 100's of dogs to families as PPD that did not do what they are suposed to do. Tested? what the F*** do you think moron? the dogs go thru all kind of cenarious, inckluding school runs, etc, etc

The dogs A1K9 supply are true PPD, do not know how they do it (do not really care either). 

Do not know what you do with your dogs since you distrust them to perform when they should, or like you said "crash" when needed.


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## Chris McDonald

I'll have to beg to differ on that... Jeff likes many dogs.. He just likes the really good ones...that's all..O:mrgreen:[/quote]


You got me… I kind of have a problem using the term “many” though, but OK. Your dog can’t change a tire, can it?


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: Jeff

You must be a true Idiot thinking you can sell 100's of dogs to families as PPD that did not do what they are suposed to do. Tested? what the F*** do you think moron? the dogs go thru all kind of cenarious, inckluding school runs, etc, etc

I am not the idiot that paid 20 grand for a dog that I am too ashamed to show video of working. 

I am not 3 years into the dog training thing like 90% of the people on here. I have worked with enough people over the years to know how this shit works. I thought it would be good to see your dog working so that maybe we could help, but you are too busy writing bullshit like your dog is gonna rip a decoy up.

Have you ever seen your dog work ??

Quote: 
Do not know what you do with your dogs since you distrust them to perform when they should, or like you said "crash" when needed.

I do Mondio ring.

I have faith in God, murphy's law, and the fact that assumption is the mother of all **** ups.

Whether or not my dogs will do anything or not does not concern me, they might, they might not, I don't care. If I were to live in a neighborhood where I felt imminent danger, I would simply move.

Here is a video of the idiot dog working on the B&H. He figured out that it was a good idea to just run in and bite somewhere along the line, so that is what we were working on.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jn6nyfU9hGw

You tell me if he would bite "for real". LOL I could give a shit less.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: Your dog can’t change a tire, can it?

Don't start, Gary will teach her that. I am sure he would figure a way to show her. : )


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## Chris McDonald

Fred if you bought the dog you had to think it was worth the money? Then someplace you tell everyone how much you paid. A few things are screwy here, why if you really feel you need a protection dog would you be stupid enough to go around and brag about how much you spent on one. I am willing to bet more than half the members on this site could steal the dog from your yard while the dog is “protecting” your children. How much would that suck? 

 I said it before, if someone wants to spend big money on a dog good for them, I could care less. When you get done adding things up if someone wants to make a sole living off of training and selling dogs I think they do need to charge more than most would think is reasonable. That being said what made you decide that this dog/ trainer were worth that kind of money? Does it just have basic bite work and great control? Is it trained in food avoidance? Black powder detection? Can it climb a ladder? Ride a bike? 
As of now I do have to agree that you are in the chicken shit category and digging deeper 
What made you spend the money? What made you think it was worth it?


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## Gerry Grimwood

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jn6nyfU9hGw
> 
> You tell me if he would bite "for real". LOL I could give a shit less.


Hahaha, the elbow to the person running the camera is just what I would expect from Jeff.


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## Chris McDonald

Gerry Grimwood said:


> Hahaha, the elbow to the person running the camera is just what I would expect from Jeff.


His dog is hanging from a pecker and the camera man gets elbowed. The Groin shot? that’s not even funny. No wonder he cant find decoys


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## Gerry Grimwood

Chris McDonald said:


> His dog is hanging from a pecker and the camera man gets elbowed. The Groin shot? that’s not even funny. No wonder he cant find decoys


You've lost your sense of adventure Chris


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## fred karlsson

Anyone with knowledge can steel or kill a dog, just wear a sleev and knife the dog. (probably on youtube how to do that as well) 

I never said my dog got superpowers just that my money is on that he would engage rather than run.

Never bragged about what I paid just anwered a question and then tried to find out what a fair value of a PPD is, whats wrong with that?

My PPD is part of my family protection not the last line of defence.


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## Chris McDonald

Gerry Grimwood said:


> You've lost your sense of adventure Chris


 
But, It was a groin shot……. You had dogs hang from your groin? How many at once? How am I gona convince the 18-year olds its just another part of training? There is so much to do and learn with dogs!


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## Gerry Grimwood

Chris McDonald said:


> How am I gona convince the 18-year olds its just another part of training?


Tell them it will make it bigger.


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## Chris McDonald

Gerry Grimwood said:


> Tell them it will make it bigger.


That’s great….


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Or wear a cup puss boy. Trust me, if the dog was hanging off his "pecker" the whole thing would be different.

I elbowed someone ?? That was my GF. Although it might have been a cheap shot, as she is constantly filming her shitter Daschund, Livie.


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## jack van strien

Fred,
Am i getting this right?Are you afraid of being seued if your ppd bites an intruder?:-k


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## Sheldon Little

From the sounds of things he is also afraid to be sued if his dog bites a decoy. :roll:


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## Bob Scott

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: Your dog can’t change a tire, can it?
> 
> Don't start, Gary will teach her that. I am sure he would figure a way to show her. : )


Let Xena change a tire on an old Chrisler. left side had left handed lug nuts, right side had right hand.
Bet it would take her another :-k 5-10 mins to figure it out. :lol:;-)


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## Brian Jones

I have seen from $3,500 to over $30,000 for one dog plus initial training. It all depends on where you are at and if they think you hold a government contract. LOL.


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## Chris McDonald

Bob Scott said:


> Let Xena change a tire on an old Chrisler. left side had left handed lug nuts, right side had right hand.
> Bet it would take her another :-k 5-10 mins to figure it out. :lol:;-)


 
And when you do this stuff you always have some ass that goes “leftey loosey – righty tighty” and that just screws you up more. So don’t be saying that when you train the dog, just let him work through it! 
And maybe they spin the other way where Gary is, I think the water in the toilet bowls spin in the other direction in other parts of the world. Maybe the lug nuts do to? Ill just stop here because I don’t want to get to scientific on you people.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

I had a 1969 Dodge Charger. I really did not know about the stupid threads going the wrong way. There were no cell phones back then, and finally some farmer stopped and told me the deal.


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## Thomas Barriano

*for anyone keeping score Zena 1 Jeff 0 *



Bob Scott said:


> Let Xena change a tire on an old Chrysler. left side had left handed lug nuts, right side had right hand.
> Bet it would take her another :-k 5-10 mins to figure it out. :lol:;-)


Bob,

I guess that makes Xena smarter then Jeff. He needed a farmer to come along to tell him how to loosen the lug nuts on his 69 Dodge Charger


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## Bob Scott

Hell, I jumped up and down on one of the old X handle tire irons (60s Plymouth) till my uncle came out of the house and gave me a kick in the ass. Musta been connected to my brain cause I got it right next time. :grin:  
Xena is smarter then Jeff? Is that even a question? :lol::lol::lol:;-)


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## Dan Long

Chris McDonald said:


> Fred if you bought the dog you had to think it was worth the money? Then someplace you tell everyone how much you paid. A few things are screwy here, why if you really feel you need a protection dog would you be stupid enough to go around and brag about how much you spent on one. I am willing to bet more than half the members on this site could steal the dog from your yard while the dog is “protecting” your children. How much would that suck?
> 
> I said it before, if someone wants to spend big money on a dog good for them, I could care less. When you get done adding things up if someone wants to make a sole living off of training and selling dogs I think they do need to charge more than most would think is reasonable. That being said what made you decide that this dog/ trainer were worth that kind of money? Does it just have basic bite work and great control? Is it trained in food avoidance? Black powder detection? Can it climb a ladder? Ride a bike?
> As of now I do have to agree that you are in the chicken shit category and digging deeper
> What made you spend the money? What made you think it was worth it?


For the $$ spent, it better have food avoidance training. 

I can answer the last 2 questions- because he can and he wanted a status symbol PPD like all his friends, and it was worth it because the guy who sold it to him told him so.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: Xena is smarter then Jeff? Is that even a question?

Since I got you by about 90 points.............she makes you look like a tard. HA HA

I can do this all day.


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## chris haynie

so for all his smack talking has the OP posted a video yet?

i did a quick youtube search and i found a bunch of vids from members here. most of them, excpet jeffs nut biting dog, were awesome. jeff that nut biter you got is kind of scary. you're a sick dude. i like it.


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## Sheldon Little

chris haynie said:


> jeff that nut biter you got is kind of scary. you're a sick dude. i like it.


Agreed


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## Chris McDonald

Dan Long said:


> For the $$ spent, it better have food avoidance training.
> 
> I would like to know what the dog can do? Does it have just basic bite work of a SCH 1 dog, or can it do more advanced man work and other cool useless stuff?


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## Sheldon Little

So far all this Fred fella has been able to inform us on is that the dog was almost $20K and it bites. I'd like some more info since I doubt we'll ever see a video of it working.


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## Bob Scott

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: Xena is smarter then Jeff? Is that even a question?
> 
> Since I got you by about 90 points.............she makes you look like a tard. HA HA
> 
> I can do this all day.


Hell, my own dogs make me look like a "tard" and I don't think even Thunder is at her level. Close though. ;-)


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## fred karlsson

"I can answer the last 2 questions- because he can and he wanted a status symbol PPD like all his friends, and it was worth it because the guy who sold it to him told him so."

You are dead on, looking to buy another. only criteria is that it should be over 5kg...so you can not smack it aginst a lampost once it committed to a bite.

LOL


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## Kat LaPlante

Gerry Grimwood said:


> Look what you could get for them.............. http://www.protectiondogs.com/personal_and_executive_protection_dogs_for_sale.shtml
> 
> The top 3 Mals are the most expensive, boggles the mind.


Are these dogs worth the money? I love this part of the sales pitch... " The barking communicates to the parents or a caretaker that...."

Caretaker.....WTHeck???


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## Matt Hammond

to me the price of dogs are getting out of hand. Some folks sell green dogs for $1500 and other sell them for $8500. Some folks sell fully trained Dual purpose dogs for $6500 and others for $15,000. It will not be long until the whole dog world gets regulated if we do not do it ourselves. Kennels that sell dogs for $30k + are asking for trouble. and Most will buckle in the line of fire. I know first hand one kennel in SC that buys Sch1 GSD brings them in shots a video of the dog and then sells it for $30k or more. That to me is criminal, but there is a sucker born everyday and he finds all of them.

Most PPDs are nothing more then suped up sport dogs wil over the top OB. You can argue all day but that is a fact. 90% of folks buying PPDs will never use them so the OB better be tip top to justify the ass raping you gave the client. 

I asked two things when someone calls for a dog, what is your need and what is your want. Do you "need" or just want it. Most just want it. So I take one of our police prospects polish up the OB and there you go a nice fully functional PPD. Complete with call offs and bark and holds. 

The people that sell dogs to folks and tell them they will subdue weapons and bite and release are just making the problem worse in my mind.


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## Al Curbow

It's all relative though. After thinking about this, if i could clone my Marek and have him back, i'd pay the asking price...whatever it was


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Kind of a different issue, though I think if you went out and looked all over the place, you would find another dog like him, it just might take you ten years of continual searching.


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## Matt Hammond

Everyone has lost great dogs, and as much as we would love to have them back we never will. I guess that is what makes them great. I try not to compare the new to the old. Let the good ones live on thru stories and memories this will allow the new ones to create their one place.


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## Hoyt Yang

Didn't read through all the posts- but I think a PP dog is worth what someone is willing to pay. I've seen very average, albeit good looking dogs go for north of 50k, to what I think EXCELLENT DOGS go for much much less than that. Seems like 'sports' dogs are more restricted in pricing compared to PP dogs. If I were solely in the business of selling dogs, I would certainly concentrate on 'customized PP dogs.'


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## Curtis McHail

20 grand for a dog with no titles of any kind to improve the value of his semen = Highway Robbery...unless the dog came with a grenade launcher, 2 AR-15's an a couple Kimber Custom II's with a year supply of ammo...


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## Sheldon Little

Curtis McHail said:


> 20 grand for a dog with no titles of any kind to improve the value of his semen = Highway Robbery...unless the dog came with a grenade launcher, 2 AR-15's an a couple Kimber Custom II's with a year supply of ammo...


#-o Worth every penny


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