# Prong collar and E-collar



## Jonathan Katz (Jan 11, 2010)

If you have a prong collar and e-collar on your dog, which one goes on top? And Why?

I have heard many opinions on this topic and I would like to hear the opinions of WDF people. Thanx!


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Not sure what your question is on top? on top of what? 
My dog wares the pinch the proper way tight and high on his neck ware it meets his head the electric is next with the receiver away from my leg and his fur saver
Sorry cant vote my dog always wares both even on trial day


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## Jonathan Katz (Jan 11, 2010)

Sorry, I am referring to neck position. And you answered the question.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

I keep the metal collar below the receiver so it won't interfere or short the e-collar.


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## Scott Williams (Aug 24, 2009)

Are you referring to the neck, waist or tail? LOL!


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## Jonathan Katz (Jan 11, 2010)

Scott Williams said:


> Are you referring to the neck, waist or tail? LOL!


LOL!


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## Lloyd Kasakoff (Jun 15, 2008)

You have to open up your mind to new possibilities. 

Why not both? 

I don't mean a prong AND an e-collar - I mean above AND below. 

See?


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## Jonathan Katz (Jan 11, 2010)

Lloyd Kasakoff said:


> You have to open up your mind to new possibilities.
> 
> Why not both?
> 
> ...


Very interesting! What would be the reason for 2 prong collars?


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Jonathan Katz said:


> Very interesting! What would be the reason for 2 prong collars?


My first guess would be Alzheimer's.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Nicole Stark said:


> My first guess would be Alzheimer's.


:lol:


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

I never use an electric training collar but if I did I think I would put it under the prong. Im just thinking the if there was a collar above the prong collar it might interfere with a prong correction? But what the hell do I know; I was an ass and over corrected my first dog when I first got him 3 or 4 years ago… now I just have to look at him with a frown on my face and its all he needs. Not bragging about it, just putting it out there for others to learn. You way better off going light especially on a Mr. Sensitivity kind of dog.


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## Earl Dunn (Jul 21, 2010)

I always put the prong collar the highest up on the neck and then any collar under it. Especially when pairing it with an ecollar. I find that if you have the prong under the ecollar and need to correct using the prong, it tends to drive the contact points of the ecollar into the neck causing further discomfort.


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## Margaret Wheeler (May 29, 2010)

Lloyd Kasakoff said:


> You have to open up your mind to new possibilities.
> 
> Why not both?
> 
> ...





Jonathan Katz said:


> Very interesting! What would be the reason for 2 prong collars?


Simultaneous Decoy/Handler Corrections er well "simultaneous" isn't quite the right word, but you know what I mean right?


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## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

I voted wrong by accident... make it 5 for ecollar on top..... and subtract from prong on top O

I want the e-collar at the most sensitive point, when I m using an e, the prong is hardly used ....it can go below...


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## Jonathan Katz (Jan 11, 2010)

Margaret Wheeler said:


> Simultaneous Decoy/Handler Corrections er well "simultaneous" isn't quite the right word, but you know what I mean right?


Are you saying string the dog out? If so shouldn't one prong collar be facing the decoy. I hate decoy corrections! I don't allow anyone to correct my dog other than me.


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## Jonathan Katz (Jan 11, 2010)

I use an ecollar as my primary tool for correction. IMO the primary correction tool should be as high up on the dogs neck as possible. Also I don't like my prong collar to be touching any other collar on the dogs neck. I find it can muffle the strength of the correction.


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## Lloyd Kasakoff (Jun 15, 2008)

Jonathan Katz said:


> I don't allow anyone to correct my dog other than me.


Well, Jonathan, you're lucky. Some dogs must just be terrors, and need a very special amount of correction from both handler *and* decoy. Or perhaps they *really* need to get the message from the handler. 

Some handlers see pronging and e-collaring as a very positive experience for the dog - so the dog in the picture must be a *very* positive dog! 

To me, you have to be clairvoyant or read the decoy's mind so the correction is properly applied when 2 people have to be in synch to deal with 2 e-collars. But as others have said, the way the collars are pointed in the picture, they're both for the handler, it would appear.

I get off cheap; I have shepherds, which means my dogs are lumbering and just not that drivey. I hung up my e-collar a few months ago.

Perhaps the handler can chime in and tell us why 3 collars are neccesary for her dog?


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## Candy Eggert (Oct 28, 2008)

When I attended a Bart Bellon seminar, he says for dogs still in training the pinch goes high up on the neck near the ears and the e-collar below it. He uses both at the same time...little pop on the pinch and stim paired together.

After the dog is fairly reliable in the training the e-collar goes on first and then the pinch lower down. I don't remember his reasoning...maybe I've never gotten that far in training :-\":lol:


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## marta wade (Apr 17, 2008)

Candy, you beat me to it. Maybe we were at the same seminar. I know I entered the room with my Dutch with pinch up high and e-collar below and he was commenting that he liked when the collar you are actively using or using more is on top. He thought I did it on purpose. I just put the collar where it fit, no reason behind it!


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## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

Not having ever met the man, but it sounds like he is saying that because up top is more sensitive.... so it only makes sense to put the collar you are "actively" using or relying on at the most sensitive point... just a guess of course :-#


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## marta wade (Apr 17, 2008)

Yes, that was definately what he was saying. I was just so new to it all and found it funny that he was commenting this is how you put it on when my dog came out...


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## Candy Eggert (Oct 28, 2008)

marta wade said:


> Candy, you beat me to it. Maybe we were at the same seminar. I know I entered the room with my Dutch with pinch up high and e-collar below and he was commenting that he liked when the collar you are actively using or using more is on top. He thought I did it on purpose. I just put the collar where it fit, no reason behind it!


One of us has a very good memory and the other not so much (me). LOL Yes, we were both at the same seminar Marta. And I do remember Bart commenting on how he uses the positioning...maybe you were the poster child for the demo  Was a GREAT seminar and lots of fun to boot!!


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Margaret Wheeler said:


> Simultaneous Decoy/Handler Corrections er well "simultaneous" isn't quite the right word, but you know what I mean right?


I've seen dual prongs used on back ties as well. I took a picture of it being used like that on a Dobe once. I didn't know it at the time but when I checked it out later it looked like the neck was about to snap. Kinda gross.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Jonathan Katz said:


> Very interesting! What would be the reason for 2 prong collars?


I use two prongs on the dog when I'm using decoy corrections. One collar is facing forward and the other is facing back. When I use the e-collar too it looks like the dog pictured above.


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## Margaret Wheeler (May 29, 2010)

Jonathan Katz said:


> Are you saying string the dog out? If so shouldn't one prong collar be facing the decoy. I hate decoy corrections! I don't allow anyone to correct my dog other than me.


 
Who said anything about stringing a dog out? Do you always go angry emo when a person makes a remark that doesn't mesh perfectly with your personal world view?

Even in my short time in this stuff, it's apparent to me that many dogs respect (even like) their training decoys as much their handler. So, a good correction or reward from such a decoy can be just as effective as a correction or reward from the handler.


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## Laura Bollschweiler (Apr 25, 2008)

Candy Eggert said:


> One of us has a very good memory and the other not so much (me). LOL Yes, we were both at the same seminar Marta. And I do remember Bart commenting on how he uses the positioning...maybe you were the poster child for the demo  Was a GREAT seminar and lots of fun to boot!!


Hey, I was there too!  I remember him saying what Marta said, active collar up high.

Laura


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## Jonathan Katz (Jan 11, 2010)

Margaret Wheeler said:


> Who said anything about stringing a dog out? Do you always go angry emo when a person makes a remark that doesn't mesh perfectly with your personal world view?
> 
> Even in my short time in this stuff, it's apparent to me that many dogs respect (even like) their training decoys as much their handler. So, a good correction or reward from such a decoy can be just as effective as a correction or reward from the handler.


Angry emo? OK?

I guess this is a sour subject? 

I you give a correction from the front and back at the same time, is this not stringing a dog out? If you are not doing this, than why 2 prong collars? Can't your decoy just grab the dogs leash and correct him?

I am happy you like decoy correction! Just because I stated that I HATE them, doesn't mean that I am trying to get you to hate them too. It was a statement! Get over it! I'm sure you will live!


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Jonathan Katz said:


> Are you saying string the dog out? If so shouldn't one prong collar be facing the decoy. I hate decoy corrections! I don't allow anyone to correct my dog other than me.





Margaret Wheeler said:


> Even in my short time in this stuff, it's apparent to me that many dogs respect (even like) their training decoys as much their handler. So, a good correction or reward from such a decoy can be just as effective as a correction or reward from the handler.


Aproching 20 years of training Schutzhund dogs I bow down to a training helper that can help me train my dog and take my dog on the biggest rollercoaster ride of his life time after time after time.
Here is a example if you start seeing "out" troubles believe me correcting backward or electric ain't going to fix it with a strong dog a good helper can correct in to the sleeve and pay the dog in a split second clean fast no conflict, aus bam bam bite, aus bam bam bite, aus bam bite, aus bite aus bite.
I can do nothing but laugh my ass off at some of the stupid ****s banging on dogs day after day after day with electric and long lines come trial day DQ.
Unless your a cop this this is smart sport training. 
Sport is fake army boys and girls.:lol:


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## Jonathan Katz (Jan 11, 2010)

Mike Scheiber said:


> Aproching 20 years of training Schutzhund dogs I bow down to a training helper that can help me train my dog and take my dog on the biggest rollercoaster ride of his life time after time after time.
> Here is a example if you start seeing out troubles believe me correcting backward or electric ain't going to fix it with a strong dog a good helper can correct in to the sleeve and pay the dog in a split second clean fast no conflict aus bam bam bite, aus bam bam bite, aus bam bite, aus bite aus bite.
> I can do nothing but laugh my ass off at some of the stupid ****s banging on dogs day after day after day with electric and long lines come trial day DQ.
> Unless your a cop this this is smart training.
> Sport is fake army boys and girls.:lol:


I know a lot of people are going to get upset with my statement. IMO If a dog has outing issues, it is the handlers fault for not teaching the behavior properly. Out should be no different than any other behavior. I can not believe that people teach their dogs Out on a decoy. Out should be taught away from any decoy conflict. If you have problems getting things away from your, than he is probably going to have Outing issues. JMO 

People can say that I have never worked with any big tough dogs, but that is their opinion.


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## Margaret Wheeler (May 29, 2010)

Jonathan Katz said:


> Angry emo? OK?
> 
> I guess this is a sour subject?
> 
> ...


 
I'm happy if you're happy Jon! I like the way you turned this thing around: you've mastered a form of female argument that even my sister-in-law ( a true master) would envy!


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## Jonathan Katz (Jan 11, 2010)

Margaret Wheeler said:


> I'm happy if you're happy Jon! I like the way you turned this thing around: you've mastered a form of female argument that even my sister-in-law ( a true master) would envy!


Thanx Margaret!


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Jonathan Katz said:


> I know a lot of people are going to get upset with my statement. IMO If a dog has outing issues, it is the handlers fault for not teaching the behavior properly. Out should be no different than any other behavior. I can not believe that people teach their dogs Out on a decoy. Out should be taught away from any decoy conflict. If you have problems getting things away from your, than he is probably going to have Outing issues. JMO
> 
> People can say that I have never worked with any big tough dogs, but that is their opinion.


We have trained deep into 100's of Schutzhund dogs through the years many roads to Rome we have taken no out troubles here we are well versed with just about every method imaginable from the Flint Stones to Mamby Pamby and use them all.


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## Margaret Wheeler (May 29, 2010)

Mike Scheiber said:


> Aproching 20 years of training Schutzhund dogs I bow down to a training helper that can help me train my dog and take my dog on the biggest rollercoaster ride of his life time after time after time.
> Here is a example if you start seeing "out" troubles believe me correcting backward or electric ain't going to fix it with a strong dog a good helper can correct in to the sleeve and pay the dog in a split second clean fast no conflict, aus bam bam bite, aus bam bam bite, aus bam bite, aus bite aus bite.
> I can do nothing but laugh my ass off at some of the stupid ****s banging on dogs day after day after day with electric and long lines come trial day DQ.
> Unless your a cop this this is smart sport training.
> Sport is fake army boys and girls.:lol:


Thanks Mike! 
The one time I've seen two collars used was for anticipation in defense of handler: intensely drivey dog who after much effort from his highly competent handler just didn't want to wait for the formalities to come to a close. And the dog was NOT strung up.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Margaret Wheeler said:


> Thanks Mike!
> The one time I've seen two collars used was for anticipation in defense of handler: intensely drivey dog who after much effort from his highly competent handler just didn't want to wait for the formalities to come to a close. And the dog was NOT strung up.


I used two on my Rottweiler for force retrieve one sharpened one not the final product was beautiful he would return sit in front and have this low growl with his little stump wiggling I would out the dumbbell he would bounce super high into a swing finish and be in over drive!!! 
God he had smoking retrieves.


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## Maureen A Osborn (Feb 12, 2010)

OK, since no one has addressed it, I think someone needs to point out WHY a prong or choke should be above an e-collar. I always learned when you have full control of a dog's head you will have control of the dog....and you do that by having the collar as high up on the neck as you can go, right behind the ears...you can basically steer your dog in any direction you want it to go by turning it's head in that direction. YOu can turn the dog's head and keep it from staring at another dog, change direction, etc. Having the e-collar above the other collar doesn;t allow you to do that. I have been able to control dogs that weigh even more than I do with a thin show choke right up behind their ears with no problems.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Maureen A Osborn said:


> OK, since no one has addressed it, I think someone needs to point out WHY a prong or choke should be above an e-collar. I always learned when you have full control of a dog's head you will have control of the dog....and you do that by having the collar as high up on the neck as you can go, right behind the ears...you can basically steer your dog in any direction you want it to go by turning it's head in that direction. YOu can turn the dog's head and keep it from staring at another dog, change direction, etc. Having the e-collar above the other collar doesn;t allow you to do that. I have been able to control dogs that weigh even more than I do with a thin show choke right up behind their ears with no problems.


I would be interested in knowing also but I doubt that it realy matters much the way I use it has worked worked for 10s of thousands of of dogs around the world so for now I'll just carry on.


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## Maureen A Osborn (Feb 12, 2010)

Hey Mike, FYI....it's spelled "WEAR" not ware like warehouse.


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## Gloria Miller (Jul 22, 2010)

I'm not a trainer but two trainers have told me to keep the pincher higher than the e-collar. One told me that a pincher worn lower on the dog's neck could puncture it's trachea if it got a very hard pop. I don't know the truth. It is merely an explanation I'm passing along. The other trainer said I'd have better control of his head movements if it were worn high on the neck.


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

using a prong or pincollar in the WRONG way can open a whole lot of problems for you, trachea paralasis/spasms to name but one...not something you would want to have happen to your dog..hence the ecollar goes on the throat and the prong/pinch goes up behind the ears.


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## Gloria Miller (Jul 22, 2010)

That's exactly what I was told Alice and I"m using them like that everyday. Sometimes the pincher slips down below the e-collar so I'm adjusting it a lot though.


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