# Picking a GSD stud



## Mark Connolly (Jun 19, 2006)

I have intentions on breeding my female GSD Tamara Aritar Bastet this spring. She will go for her OFA in March. Mara is a Tom z PS daughter and is everything we have ever wanted in a GSD bitch. She has extreme retrieve drive and hunt drive. She has strong prey with solid and calm grips. She shows decent defense but we have not had much pressure put to her yet. 

I am searching for a suitable stud and I'm open to any suggestions. I would like to add more defense. My breeding goals are geared towards developing healthy candidates for law enforcement and personal protection. 

Mara's pedigree....

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/505619.html


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Mark nice goals. How are dogs purchased from your local or state cops? Most agencies will not buy from private folks and make their purchases from K9 brokers in Europe. Also, for a dual purpose dog it BETTER have strong prey/hunt drives. This is used for narcotics detection. Few agencies buy a single purpose animal.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Since you are near me -- if you had an interest you could talk with Ted vande Woude at Queen City K9 about my dog Grim (he has used Grim as a stud but I don't know about the puppies other than he said they were good) ---- as a possible option. I am not jumping at the bit to breed him as he has not titles or koer but is working as a cadaver dog and would love to actually see what he produces. His picture is not a stack and he has filled out some since it was taken --he is missing the end of his tail due to an accident. I was actually planning some weekend when we are not working or training have Richard Shook (also nearby) evaluate him.

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/para.utkoma?fadir=460211&modir=505619

My hesitation is not knowing enough to make that assesment myself! Ted claims he was worked in defense but I only do scentwork and it would take some objective evaluation to see if he has the right stuff for *real* bitework. If nothing else looks like an interesting pedigree.


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## Chris Wild (Jan 30, 2008)

Howard Gaines III said:


> Mark nice goals. How are dogs purchased from your local or state cops? Most agencies will not buy from private folks and make their purchases from K9 brokers in Europe. Also, for a dual purpose dog it BETTER have strong prey/hunt drives. This is used for narcotics detection. Few agencies buy a single purpose animal.


Very true.

They also generally do not want puppies. They want older, green dogs with some foundation training and hip/elbow x-rays done. So providing dogs to PDs is generally going to mean keeping them and doing some training with them, not selling them as pups.

Many years ago we used to raise and imprint dogs for the MI state police. They would not even come look at the dogs until they were at least 8-10 months old, at which point they expected the pups to have been extensively socialized, a basic foundation in bitework and also be imprinted on various narcotic odors. 

Most other agencies we've dealt with expected much the same. One of the reasons we stopped doing it. We don't have huge kennel facilities to house a bunch of young dogs while they grow up, and I'd prefer to put time into my own dogs when it comes to training. Lots and lots of work, and most PDs (at least in this area) weren't willing to pay more $$ for a year old green dog with prelims and foundation training than the same dog could have been sold to a private individual for at 8 weeks old.

You may already know this or have contacts with PDs to place these dogs. But if you don't, these are some things to consider.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Sounds like we are on the same page! If you can get a basic puppy ready, 11 months old, keep the prey drive high and start basic bite work on a sleeve and bite suit, you can get $2,500 and up. I would rather sell to private people and know what my animals are doing. Looking good Chris!


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## Mark Connolly (Jun 19, 2006)

Nancy Jocoy said:


> Since you are near me -- if you had an interest you could talk with Ted vande Woude at Queen City K9 about my dog Grim (he has used Grim as a stud but I don't know about the puppies other than he said they were good) ---- as a possible option. I am not jumping at the bit to breed him as he has not titles or koer but is working as a cadaver dog and would love to actually see what he produces. His picture is not a stack and he has filled out some since it was taken --he is missing the end of his tail due to an accident. I was actually planning some weekend when we are not working or training have Richard Shook (also nearby) evaluate him.
> 
> http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/para.utkoma?fadir=460211&modir=505619
> 
> My hesitation is not knowing enough to make that assesment myself! Ted claims he was worked in defense but I only do scentwork and it would take some objective evaluation to see if he has the right stuff for *real* bitework. If nothing else looks like an interesting pedigree.


Small world!
I'm good friends with Ted and I believe I met Grim when he still had him. He was young and a very nice sable with outstanding retrieve drive.

The pedigree does look interesting. Has Grim been certified for his cadaver work? I know you were looking to do this with NAPWDA some time ago.


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## Mark Connolly (Jun 19, 2006)

I'm well aware of what LE agencies are looking for. I did not mean to imply I would be selling agencies puppies.

I am looking to develop GSD's with the qualities I like in a police dog (dual-purpose). I would be keeping back a dog or two from a litter to raise and imprint. Making these dogs availalble to PD's or PP homes at a young green dog state.

I do have an occassional request for puppies bought by LEO's to be raised by themselves as possible future partners. Many of the small agencies in my area allow officers to purchase their own dogs and contract them with their agency. 
These same puppies would come back to us for weekly training sessions. It is a long process and takes a commited handler but some have been very successful.

By the way not all K9 vendors purchase titled or green dogs from Europe. It may be the most common way of doing business but for smaller vendors we work a little harder, longer, and make good bit less! 
I guess it is all in what you like to do and the satisfaction of putting dogs on the street that you know in and out.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

No, the NAPWDA test was canceled because the evaluator's family member had a heart attack ........... we are still planning on it ..........just trying to work out a date because Mickey (evaluator) is zinging all over the country doing workshops (she is now retired LE and on the road a LOT) -- there are not too many NAPWDA Master Trainers for cadaver --- she did think from seeing our team dogs they were ready for testing. We could try NNDDA and IPWDA but around here it seems NAPWDA and USPCA (who won't certify civilians) are the most recognized Police K9 agencies.

Grim has been around. Ted sold him to Dan Rieter of K9 BSD (Dan used him a "K9 Grim" a demo dog), but Dan had to keep Grim in a kennel in his garage because his other intact male did not relish the idea of having a 2nd intact male around and juggling dogs was not how he wanted to live with his dogs. Dan sold him to me basically for what he paid with him and a 30 day guarantee and I had two K9 LEOs evaluate him for me independentaly (one offered to take him if I did not) and we decided he was a "keeper".


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## Chris Jones (Jan 26, 2008)

Not sure but Mike Diehl's dog Erri might be a nice fit.
http://www.diehlspolicek9training.com/males.html
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/473094.html
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/para.utkoma?fadir=473094&modir=505619


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## Chris Jones (Jan 26, 2008)

There are also a nice selection of studs at http://www.caninebiotech.com/
you might want to check.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

May want to talk with folks about the lines ----- I have heard possible negative things with too much Grim z PS and any of these combos would be linebred on him, but am not sure of the details .... some of those discussions on von dom burgerland site.


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## Chris Wild (Jan 30, 2008)

Mike Deihl also owns Eick vd Berger Hochburg. A dog that is producing extreme prey drive and high levels of natural aggression in his progeny. Many of the pups I've seen have a definite edge to them, so he could be a good choice if you're looking to add more defense. Though I wouldn't breed a bitch with anything less than 100% sound nerves, both environmentally and in terms of ability to cap and control drive, to him.


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## Chris Jones (Jan 26, 2008)

Nancy Jocoy said:


> May want to talk with folks about the lines ----- I have heard possible negative things with too much Grim z PS and any of these combos would be linebred on him, but am not sure of the details .... some of those discussions on von dom burgerland site.


With this mating... http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/para.utkoma?fadir=473094&modir=505619
Grim would be back at 4,4-4. That might be far back enough to be ok. I've heard it was mainly closer than 4-4 that wasn't recommended on Grim. What do you think Nancy?


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

I am not really qualified to make a reply - there are folks on von domuburgerland who have done a 3-3, and a 3-4 so asking them about the outcome may be good. the concern was hips and ears. I may go on tonight and ask in a generic sense - I would certainly like to know.

Deanna Thompson of Black Ice has Grim's sibling** (Tascha v Lindenhall) from a prior breeding and is using her in her breeding program. I had wanted to talk with her before I did anything with Grim.

I have been just reading along because it is not top in my mind to get into breeding .......... but he has a lot of what I have found hard to find in a GSD.

**the names are ALL over the place - no litter naming conventions here! I know the guy who produced Grim was in Florida and repeated a successful breeding done in Czechoslovakia. WIll Fetz originally owned Deanna's dog. I also think the guy who did this breeding is is more of an ASR folk.........There is also a third repeat of the litter that I know about.


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## Chris Jones (Jan 26, 2008)

Chris Wild said:


> Mike Deihl also owns Eick vd Berger Hochburg. A dog that is producing extreme prey drive and high levels of natural aggression in his progeny. Many of the pups I've seen have a definite edge to them, so he could be a good choice if you're looking to add more defense. Though I wouldn't breed a bitch with anything less than 100% sound nerves, both environmentally and in terms of ability to cap and control drive, to him.


Using Eick would make the breeding an out cross and the results may be more of a toss up from what I understand. Correct me if I'm wrong.


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## Chris Wild (Jan 30, 2008)

Chris Jones said:


> Using Eick would make the breeding an out cross and the results may be more of a toss up from what I understand. Correct me if I'm wrong.


Yes, an outcross can produce more inconsistency amongst pups than line-breeding. But that's not a hard and fast rule. What breeders shouldn't do is linebreed just to linebreed solely for the hope of increasing consistency, or linebreed on famous dogs because they're famous dogs. Every dog has strengths and weaknesses, and linebreeding will magnify the likelihood of both in the pups. Never do it without thorough understanding of what the dog being linebred upon brings to the mix. Make sure you really want those things, and that the increased chances of getting his weaknesses are compensated for elsewhere in the pedigree. 

Also, some sires and dams are very genetically dominant and will throw themselves strongly into their progeny, even without linebreeding. The same goes for linebreeding on certain dogs. Some were so weak in genetic contribution that a close linebreeding on them won't have much effect, others were so strong and consistent in what they produced that they can still have an impact several generations later, even without being linebred upon.

I've had 2 outcross breedings that produced uncanny consistency between pups, so much so that you'd think there must be tight linebreeding to have produced that result when in fact there is none. The most inconsistent litter I've ever bred, with pups all over the place in terms of working ablity, was also the most closely linebred litter I've ever done. So while linebreeding can be a valuable tool, it's far from a sure thing in terms of consistent results. It really depends on the individual dogs involved and what they throw.


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## Chris Jones (Jan 26, 2008)

My girl is an out cross too. So far things seem ok.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

I even gather some of the outcome depends on where in the pedigree (e.g., male tail line of the female used or other tail lines) certain dogs are has an impact.

Personally I like the idea of mixing the workinglines up -- it seems genetically healthier to have that level of diversity -- but would sure want some one on one work with someone who really knew the lines and would really want to know both dogs.

It seems very complex. A lot of these Czech dogs are so damned nice! I hope we (dog people in general) don't muck it up.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Chris Jones said:


> My girl is an out cross too. So far things seem ok.


Mine is also an outcross but the lines are still all Eastern European with, of course, the DDR part going back to some WGR showlines.


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## Chris Wild (Jan 30, 2008)

Nancy Jocoy said:


> Mine is also an outcross but the lines are still all Eastern European with, of course, the DDR part going back to some WGR showlines.


And that's another thing to consider regarding linebreeding and outcrossing. Linebreeding can be a good tool to bring consistency in type, and it's the one used most often when creating new breeds of dogs, and is the root of many splits in type within breeds. But it's not as important when breeding dogs of similar type and pedigree. 


While the different types of working line GSDs may have their differences, they are still far more similar than dissimilar. And far more similar to one another than to a German show line or an American shepherd. And while they may not seem closely related at first glance at a pedigree, go back a few generations and they are. The DDR dogs were a subset of German dogs, who shared the same recent ancestors as the dogs that didn't get trapped in communist East Germany. And the modern Czech dogs were in turn heavily influenced by the DDR dogs. Make it back a few generations, and you see the same dogs over and over again in the pedigrees of all of them, regardless of what type of GSD the dog is considered to be today.


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## Chris Jones (Jan 26, 2008)

Genetics is a crazy topic. I'm new to studying the genetics of the German Shepherd but find it very fascinating. I just recently required a copy of the book The German Shepherd Dog: A Genetic History and I have been slowly trying to digest that in bits and pieces.

BTW: sorry for hijacking the thread Mark.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Some of that goes back to the question I have seen here and there as to how "creative" or not the Czechs were with their studbooks .......... that is innuendo that other breeds "may have been" brought into the mix.

Now is that true or not? Dutchies, Maliniois? whatever? I don't have a clue other than the wolf experiments by PS but the word was that these hybrids did not make it back into the Czech GSD lines.


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

It is rumored by good sources, nothing I can add to that though.

Chris Wild:


> I've had 2 outcross breedings that produced uncanny consistency between pups, so much so that you'd think there must be tight linebreeding to have produced that result when in fact there is none.


On a similar note, I had 3 outcross breedings from the same breeding pair, that on their third breeding were very consistent, not so much in the first two.


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## Trish Campbell (Nov 28, 2006)

Hi Mark 
She's a pretty girl 

Do you have other traits that you would like to bring in besides bringing in more defense? 
Are you wanting to stick with Czech lines or would consider west german lines? I think the more specific you can be, the more it will help you in your search for what would cross best with her. There are alot of very good males in this country..also depends on how far you want to travel, fly, drive, etc...Since she's young and this is her first breeding, if it were me, I'd look for a male that has some progeny on the ground that you can look at, and get a good feel for what's being produced. I've used Kway Posthorn SchH3, KKL-1, an Asko Lutter son a few times, really low ZW, seems to be consistently producing very good working prospects-his brother Ken also is doing well in Germany. I've used him with 2 very different females, I see his traits strongly in all 3 of my litters-swallow the sleeve, intense, very intelligent, trainable dogs, rock solid nerves...Dennis Johnson has Zeno I think near you...I know his previous owner in Belgium..that would bring in Crok, also he's an OFA excellent male, KKL-1, solid black male with titled, OFA'd progeny. Eick was already mentioned-I have a bitch related to him through Fedor Karthago...I also like Xwaldo Antverpa..lots of aggression in there with Nessel, has Lord, Orry..again a SchH3, National Level dog, KKL-1..also was a working k9 I believe..he's in Cinncinatti. Those are some males I like, but my tastes, maybe not yours  You have some other good males in your neck of the woods too. I know when I start looking at males, I talk to as many people as I can to get a really good feel for the dog.


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## Jack Martin (Feb 12, 2008)

Trish Campbell said:


> ...Dennis Johnson has Zeno I think near you...I know his previous owner in Belgium..that would bring in Crok, also he's an OFA excellent male, KKL-1, solid black male with titled, OFA'd progeny. Eick was already mentioned-I have a bitch related to him through Fedor Karthago....


 
I have a 3 1/2 year old bitch out of _Zeno de Renaudloup _and have seen many of his progeny.He is a pretty hard dog and throws a lot of his characteristics on to his progeny.My girl is a top female and I will be competing at the regionals this month with her.There is also a brother to Eich here in NC by the name of Eros.I have heard that he was actually a better trained dog than Eich but I am just going on hear say.He is at Brewers Kennel I believe.IMO I would stay close to home with a good stud on your first litter to keep things simple.


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