# Betsie Update Video



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

dog at 12 months.
Still more box training, some jumping and searching.
posting because I said I would update...from that other thread...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B7g-BbO-ln4&feature=plcp


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

She's coming along and I still like her. I don't know, maybe it's because he always sounds like he's pissed off at her. I figure somebody should like her, so why can't that be me 

Sometimes I after watching his videos I wonder how he must sound talking to his kids or saying something tender like I love you. It's like he's got a permanent wrestling voice.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> dog at 12 months.
> Still more box training, some jumping and searching.
> posting because I said I would update...from that other thread...
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B7g-BbO-ln4&feature=plcp


Seems calmer, yet double teamed and "concerned" about what they are going to do to her next especially leans over her and they are each on one side of her. Seems like you ought to be able to train this without so much conflict.

T


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## John Simpson (Jul 17, 2011)

Nice dog, still seems like the angry & abusive dad scenario & IMO deserves better treatment than she's getting.


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## Lisa Brazeau (May 6, 2010)

Couldn't agree more, John. That is pretty brutal shit. I'm not against adversives in training, but this looks pretty harsh and not the route I will/would take.


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## Timothy Saunders (Mar 12, 2009)

Lisa Brazeau said:


> Couldn't agree more, John. That is pretty brutal shit. I'm not against adversives in training, but this looks pretty harsh and not the route I will/would take.


While it is compulsive,its not brutal. She seems to be handling her training well and is becoming more clear


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

I was gonna ask what what so brutal? in this video, but didn't....but now I guess I am...


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Yeah, she's become used to the abuse. Look at the dog's response when he starts to touch her. She has the feel of being resigned to her fate. When they double team her she still kicks into survival mode. All this to stand on a box and bark. But then again they want that "look" of intensity. Maybe this is part of the psych game. I'm shocked that you can't get a feel or this dog's mental state or don't care because yippeeeee she's standing on the box and not trying to eat it. I guess the idea is that as long as she is strong enough to take it and they manage to get her to perform, its all good. You look at this type of training and think if its this bad on camera, what the hell are they doing off camera.

T


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## Doug Zaga (Mar 28, 2010)

Escape and Avoidance training. Electric, one collar a sharpened spike leather collar the other a wide flat leather collar. Does not seem to be much rewards when she does perform correctly but plenty of pressure.


Question regarding the training of Betsie, specifically her"gentics": 


Is this style training a must for her and her KNPV cert?
Trainer/handler is this their only method; Force, pressure, escape/avoidance to teach desired behavior?
What happens when she is older will there be stress built up over time to where she will be negatively affected in some way?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

1. nope not necessary
2. dont know
3 dont know

Doug. All I know is I like what I see in Boris, and he was trained by the same people, and originally came across the videos of Betsie while watching Boris vids and shared them, and will continue to do so if more become available.

I will say I have seen more electric things in watching the knpv vids than I ever have seen, have no idea how commonly they are used though.

electric collars
electric sleeves
electric hurdles
electric suits even 


T.
I never said I was happy about anything, I would not train a dog like this, but it does not strike any deep feelings in me personally. Dog looks to be coming along fine, and does not appear to look like a beaten down or abused dog to me...I have seen dogs look much worse at sch training very recently...

Just following the training of the dog. 

I do not profess to know what is in the dogs head, or how she feels. She does not strike me as looking like an abused dog when I watch her.

I am also not inclined to make a judgement on whether it is bad training or not, I dont train like this, that is all I can say.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

There's a terms war for you. What do abused dogs "look" like? Again, just because the dog has considerable hardness to deal and fight it, doesn't make it any less "brutal" or abusive. This isn't about venue. I know of a herding training who supposedly when pissed at the dog held him under water in a stock tank. Same abusive, brutal whatever adjective you want to give it. At some point you cross the line and it isn't just when you run the dog or it cowers in submission. I also don't buy that these are all necessary evils because of the venue, eventual LE purpose, dog's drives/hardness etc. Its like ohhhhhh we breed them so hard, so tough and so dominant that this is what we have to resort to to train them and we need them that hard, that tough so they can do the job.

T


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

If they still function at a high level through all of the stress of training..they are super dogs.......would take a pup from betsie in a heartbeat..


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## Timothy Saunders (Mar 12, 2009)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> I also don't buy that these are all necessary evils because of the venue, eventual LE purpose, dog's drives/hardness etc. Its like ohhhhhh we breed them so hard, so tough and so dominant that this is what we have to resort to to train them and we need them that hard, that tough so they can do the job.
> 
> T


 this is the same discussion we had about Koleher. When your life could depend on a dog that is that hard you could buy it. That is why we go to Europe to get dogs . They separate the wheat from the chaff. You can bet that soon Betsie will not be a dog that will bite people by mistake when she is in drive.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Timothy Saunders said:


> this is the same discussion we had about Koleher. When your life could depend on a dog that is that hard you could buy it. That is why we go to Europe to get dogs . They separate the wheat from the chaff. You can bet that soon Betsie will not be a dog that will bite people by mistake when she is in drive.


Personally, this line of thought makes more sense if they are testing that hardness against decoy interaction as opposed to the person that feeds it. Somehow I find it hard to think in terms of relying on a dog that has been raised and perservered against the hand that feeds it. Why should they give a shit whether your life is on the line? They could just as soon bite you in defense as the next person. Really, how does this play out? Hardness and the need for it is not the issue. 

T


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## Lynn Cheffins (Jul 11, 2006)

Well I didn't see anything abusive but I don't get the constantly bawling in the parade ground voice at the dog all the time - there is a language barrier there and I don't know what is being said but it seemed like alot of repeated commands at one point (where the dog is lying by the little ditch thing). 

The dog could have stayed on the little box thing easier instead of sliding around like a cow on ice if someone would clip the darn daggers of toenails on her - geesh made my clipper hand twitch just looking at them...


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> There's a terms war for you. What do abused dogs "look" like? Again, just because the dog has considerable hardness to deal and fight it, doesn't make it any less "brutal" or abusive. This isn't about venue. I know of a herding training who supposedly when pissed at the dog held him under water in a stock tank. Same abusive, brutal whatever adjective you want to give it. At some point you cross the line and it isn't just when you run the dog or it cowers in submission. I also don't buy that these are all necessary evils because of the venue, eventual LE purpose, dog's drives/hardness etc. Its like ohhhhhh we breed them so hard, so tough and so dominant that this is what we have to resort to to train them and we need them that hard, that tough so they can do the job.
> 
> T


T. I recently posted a thread of about 35 videos of box training. There are obviously plenty of different ways to train it.

getting pissed and dunking a dog under water in a stock tank is far more harsh that what I see in this video, I have seen sch trainers drag dogs over hurdles while forcing them to hold a dumbell, that was far more harsh than what I see in this video. I see nothing even close to being over the line is this particular video.

The dog is (in my opinion only) being "double teamed" in this video, as you put it...each guy tries to pull the dog off the box, and one guy is popping the collar for barking. This popping of the collar is done in other venues by other trainers as well, very popular in schutzhund. The dog is also being corrected for trying to snap at the "helper" who is trying to stroke her.

I dont remember anyone ever saying this HAS to be trained this way, ever. Your interpretations of why the training is done like that may in fact be accurate, but I really cannot really agree or disagree, because I do not know, or pretend to know. I can only comment on what I see in the video, I am not inside the mind of the trainers or the dog.

I personally do not see this dog biting its handler in defense, I would also bet money that the dog would protect its owner vigorously.

Whatever the opinions are on the methods, they surely do seem to be working to me, dogs shows a considerable change in behaviors from the last video from in a fairly short amount of time, and looks to be coming along on schedule, I can say that from the looks of what is being done, the dog is not being allowed to make many errors, and it should know what to do, and how to do it.


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## Britney Pelletier (Mar 5, 2009)

will fernandez said:


> If they still function at a high level through all of the stress of training..they are super dogs.......would take a pup from betsie in a heartbeat..


Agreed!


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

I do think that watching dogs being trained using certain methods can really show someone alot more about the individual characteristics that make up the dogs character package, than others.

for instance, if all I saw was videos of this dog being trained with markers and rewards only based training, I would know far far less about the dog, in my mind. even though all I have to judge the dog by are these short videos.


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## Bart Karmich (Jul 16, 2010)

This dog looks like she's having a blast. I guess she'll come to love the work, as long as the rest of her life is complete crap by comparison.


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## Zakia Days (Mar 13, 2009)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Yeah, she's become used to the abuse. Look at the dog's response when he starts to touch her. She has the feel of being resigned to her fate. When they double team her she still kicks into survival mode. All this to stand on a box and bark. But then again they want that "look" of intensity. Maybe this is part of the psych game. I'm shocked that you can't get a feel or this dog's mental state or don't care because yippeeeee she's standing on the box and not trying to eat it. I guess the idea is that as long as she is strong enough to take it and they manage to get her to perform, its all good. You look at this type of training and think if its this bad on camera, what the hell are they doing off camera.
> 
> T


While I was not fond of the "double team," I don't think there is much "abuse" going on. The dog must learn to stay on the box, so as she is barking at her handler she is bouncing towards him. I think the other guy is pulling/correcting her back on the box, so that she doesn't come off. The dog must stay on the box/evidence, so that it can not be taken or removed from where it is found. She looks very "civil" and does not appear to want to be touched by the guy who is not her handler (not sure why they are doing this), but for some reason they don't want her biting him. Technically the dog is not supposed to allow anyone near her or the object, so she should respond that way when he touches her. Only handler is to release the dog from guarding the object. I agree with those who say the dog responds well to both the pressure and the training. If she can take it now her graduation to a police service should be a walk in the park.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Zakia Days said:


> Technically the dog is not supposed to allow anyone near her or the object, so she should respond that way when he touches her. Only handler is to release the dog from guarding the object.


Zakia, this is not a guarding exercise by definition, it is simply a search, find, and bark exercise. guarding is not a requirement.

other than that I agree.


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## Zakia Days (Mar 13, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> Zakia, this is not a guarding exercise by definition, it is simply a search, find, and bark exercise. guarding is not a requirement.
> 
> other than that I agree.


Selena, I think clarified the purpose of the exercise in another thread, and when I visited Holland, I was told the same. The dog is to search for and find evidence (object) that is possibly linked to crime scene. He/she must "guard" it against passersby, the perp, the decoy, a small child, etc. until he/she is released by the handler (investigator). So I presume the "purpose" of the training is an object (evidence) guard. I believe the evidence to be admissable in court situations in some cases, so yes. It is an object (evidence) guard by definition. Unless there's abother definition. Please correct me any knpv person from Holland if I am incorrect.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Zakia Days said:


> Selena, I think clarified the purpose of the exercise in another thread, and when I visited Holland, I was told the same. The dog is to search for and find evidence (object) that is possibly linked to crime scene. He/she must "guard" it against passersby, the perp, the decoy, a small child, etc. until he/she is released by the handler (investigator). So I presume the "purpose" of the training is an object (evidence) guard. I believe the evidence to be admissable in court situations in some cases, so yes. It is an object (evidence) guard by definition. Unless there's abother definition. Please correct me any knpv person from Holland if I am incorrect.


will wait for more info, although both Ellen Piepers and Rik Wolterbeek already addressed it in the thread that James D. posted about Lucas on the box. 

Both said find, bark, no aggression needed.

In the other thread about same dog as in this thread, Selena explained how they train it, did not mention anything about guarding, but maybe just did not mention that part of it.

In the training videos that I have been collecting, some of the people training it certainly are encouraging a guarding type behavior. And some of the dogs I am sure may view it in their minds as something to be guarded.... but I am pretty sure it is not necessary to the exercise.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Joby, maybe this is a given but I expect that the end result (whether or not aggression is evident) depends upon the dog being worked and the personal training style of the handler.

I've thought about my own dog and how I might train this exercise. I contemplated that if I worked with what came most naturally to her she'd most likely end up presenting a guarding type behavior. In her, possession appears to dominate an otherwise generic prey relationship. Thus, it would be more viable to channel the training, which would likely result in the expression of any associated behaviors representing the more dominant drive. If I were to guess it would most likely come through as aggression.

Just a hunch. I've never trained this exercise so there's really no basis to what I said other than what my gut tells me.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Nicole Stark said:


> Joby, maybe this is a given but I expect that the end result (whether or not aggression is evident) depends upon the dog being worked and the personal training style of the handler.
> 
> I've thought about my own dog and how I might train this exercise. I contemplated that if I worked with what came most naturally to her she'd most likely end up presenting a guarding type behavior. In her, possession appears to dominate an otherwise generic prey relationship. Thus, it would be more viable to channel the training, which would likely result in the expression of any associated behaviors representing the more dominant drive. If I were to guess it would most likely come through as aggression.
> 
> Just a hunch. I've never trained this exercise so there's really no basis to what I said other than what my gut tells me.


sounds right to me... just another opportunity to act a fool, at least that is how my dog acted, even just playing around with something similar.

I know it seems like I am fixated on such a simple thing, but it is really interesting to me.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Your "fixations" get people thinking. We all don't have to agree with one another (heaven forbid :lol: ) But the thinking is all about learning. I hope I never stop doing that!


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## Zakia Days (Mar 13, 2009)

Oh. Ok. I guess its more of a "hey I've found something over here. Come get it!" as opposed to "hey I've found something and no one better touch it until the boss says so." So then he/she is not guarding evidence ( object), just looking for it. Ok. Gotcha.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Zakia Days said:


> Oh. Ok. I guess its more of a "hey I've found something over here. Come get it!" as opposed to "hey I've found something and no one better touch it until the boss says so." So then he/she is not guarding evidence ( object), just looking for it. Ok. Gotcha.


Zakia, I think in the mind of some of those dogs, you are 100% correct on what you previously stated. Many of them certainly do appear to be guarding the object.

was just talking about the parameters of the exercise, what is actually required.


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## Daniel Lybbert (Nov 23, 2010)

I think what is required and what a handler requires can be 2 different things. If I was doing it I would want a gaurd. 
I sure never saw any abuse. She definatly worked well. Proof is in the pudding. If the results are there, there is no argument.
Do people think you can make a dog harder more resiliant by handleing dogs abit rough?


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

will fernandez said:


> If they still function at a high level through all of the stress of training..they are super dogs.......would take a pup from betsie in a heartbeat..


Agree 100%. Also I see nothing abusive in her training. If a dog can handle stress in training like this, the dog can handle other stress outside of training.


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## Daniel Lybbert (Nov 23, 2010)

a little off topic but what does everyone think of the way the retrieve is trained?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DdiaMjXgkis&feature=relmfu


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Abusive...maybe. Depends on who is watching. Tough dog working with a tough decoy, I get that. But can someone explain why they want to bring so much conflict and stress _from the handler_?


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

he's no different from any other trainer that has been using strict compulsion for years with strong dogs ... that's all he knows so he won't change and neither will most compulsive trainers 
... because it works and works fast
especially if the dog can handle it ... most wouldn't tolerate that level ... who knows, maybe that makes him prouder of his dogs and his sole purpose is to weed out weak dogs that won't make strong PSD's 
(but i'd be curious where the wash outs end up)

bottom line for me is who really cares ?

what IS poor training technique is when he keeps yelling out the same command over and over just to get the PUP over a short hurdle and narrow ditch while using a long line .... that is suck ass training in most anyone's book 

if you think the dog is enjoying that type of training i WOULD argue the point and explain why the pup clearly shows that she isn't....but that would degrade the thread to a behavior level which compulsive trainers rarely feel a need to discuss .... they are results oriented


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## jamie lind (Feb 19, 2009)

rick smith said:


> what IS poor training technique is when he keeps yelling out the same command over and over just to get the PUP over a short hurdle and narrow ditch while using a long line .... that is suck ass training in most anyone's book


i dont think hes yelling any command to get the pup over. its to keep him from coming over. the pup comes over on his own when allowed to. then again i dont speak the language.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

jamie ... i never said the pup wouldn't jump the hurdle or clear the ditch, or that he was too hyper trying to jump and needed more control commands ... not the point i was trying to make at all  ... to me it makes no difference to me what language he was using and no, i don't understand that language either
...anyway....doesn't really matter what i think about someone else's methods, so i probably shouldn't have posted in the first place 
my suck ass is another's kick ass //lol//


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Abusive...maybe. Depends on who is watching. Tough dog working with a tough decoy, I get that. But can someone explain why they want to bring so much conflict and stress _from the handler_?


I cant answer that question obviously, because I am not in their heads.

All I can say if a dog can handle that type of training, and get certified and work effectively, it says alot about the quality of the dog itself (to me anyhow). 

again I cant speak for anyone, but I can imagine it going a long way to identifying a dog that can hold up to and perform under almost any training style used in a program, could be useful information to some people.

I remember Mike S. making a comment on a thread comparing SCH to KNPV, I am not saying he is an expert on the KNPV, but certainly knows a fair amount about it, I would guess. Even though I am sure not everyone trains like these guys do, the comment does have some overall validity in this thread I think, even if just in a general sense.



> "I know the end result often does not look flashy, but if you would see the thousands of hours put into training, the stress on the dogs, and the two years of preparation to get the dog ready, then you would be amazed that the dog still has anything left at the end."


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## jamie lind (Feb 19, 2009)

so what was the point? i thought he was reminding a young dog to stay that didnt want to. was it the fact that he was yelling? he seems to yell every command.


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## jamie lind (Feb 19, 2009)

rick smith said:


> what IS poor training technique is when he keeps yelling out the same command over and over just to get the PUP over a short hurdle and narrow ditch while using a long line .... that is suck ass training in most anyone's book


im really trying to figure out what you thought was wrong about the jumping. its the one time in the video that i see little if any compulsion. yet you point it out as bad training.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

jamie lind said:


> so what was the point? i thought he was reminding a young dog to stay that didnt want to. was it the fact that he was yelling? he seems to yell every command.


I dont know LOL. I am confused myself..
asking me or Rick? or who...

I personally would not say whether the training sucked or was great.

if the dog performs the exercise, I would say the training was effective for that exercise, if the actions translate into other areas, like the rest of all the other exercises and real life stuff, I would also say the training was effective.

I would not classify effective training as suck ass personally, I would also not say it was kick ass...I would just say it worked.



Daniel Lybbert said:


> a little off topic but what does everyone think of the way the retrieve is trained?
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DdiaMjXgkis&feature=relmfu


looks like it will work Daniel, to me anyhow.


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## jamie lind (Feb 19, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> I dont know LOL. I am confused myself..
> asking me or Rick? or who...


i was asking rick. when someone says the training sucked i wonder what part they thought sucked. maybe he thought it all sucked. im guessing he doesnt like the compulsion which is fine but then he points out the jumps which confused me.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

jamie lind said:


> he seems to yell every command.


I've never met Ad but I have corresponded with him and reviewed other videos that show how he works with different dogs. I do understand some Dutch and I know that his voice sounds like that even when he's praising/encouraging them. Frankly, I don't see it as my place to comment on his or anyone's training that didn't put up the video here to begin with. Or rather, I prefer to not publicly engage in discussions of that nature. Sometimes I break that rule, but if I can help it I won't participate in them.

What I want/wanted to know about concerning Betsie or any of his other dogs, I asked him about directly to receive an answer.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

jamie lind said:


> i was asking rick. when someone says the training sucked i wonder what part they thought sucked. maybe he thought it all sucked. im guessing he doesnt like the compulsion which is fine but then he points out the jumps which confused me.


I think it is safe to say that Rick thinks that the overall training of the dog sucks in general, I think anyhow, dont really want to put words in his mouth but do feel comfortable saying that.


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## jamie lind (Feb 19, 2009)

Nicole Stark said:


> I've never met Ad but I have corresponded with him and reviewed other videos that show how he works with different dogs. I do understand some Dutch and I know that his voice sounds like that even when he's praising/encouraging them. Frankly, I don't see it as my place to comment on his or anyone's training that didn't put up the video here to begin with. Or rather, I prefer to not publicly engage in discussions of that nature. Sometimes I break that rule, but if I can help it I won't participate in them.
> 
> What I want/wanted to know about concerning Betsie or any of his other dogs, I asked him about directly to receive an answer.


that wasnt meant to be a negative comment. just a statement.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

jamie lind said:


> that wasnt meant to be a negative comment. just a statement.


Nor mine to you. I was only addressing you on the yelling aspect but I did explain (more in a generalized sense) why I wasn't interested in saying anything else. If you read further up, I said the same thing about it and kidded a little about it. In one of the posts I also jokingly referred to him as having a permanent pro wrestling voice. He sounds like a Dutch Mr T.

I could just envision Mr T yelling, "I pity the fool who won't retrieve me a copper pipe!"


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

sorry...delete my "judgement" on the hurdle/ditch training ....

i shoulda just ended my post with the first part because that's what i had strong feelings about :
"he's no different from any other trainer that has been using strict compulsion for years with strong dogs ... that's all he knows so he won't change and neither will most compulsive trainers 
... because it works and works fast
especially if the dog can handle it ... most wouldn't tolerate that level ... who knows, maybe that makes him prouder of his dogs and his sole purpose is to weed out weak dogs that won't make strong PSD's 
(but i'd be curious where the wash outs end up)
....... bottom line for me is who really cares ?"
////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

but i do think what is considered suck ass for some is kick ass for others ....... i have just spent three WEEKS getting a dog non reactive to SEEING a lead coming without snarling and getting defensive and snapping rather than doing it with smoke and mirrors and redirection .... anyone who watched the whole process would probably consider it suck ass and tell me it should have been done in three minutes if i was a good trainer 
.....what do i care ? //lol//


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

is this the same Betsie ?
.... got her ears up //lol//
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&v=eYwNRuAR1HU&NR=1


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

New video,

learning stick attack. 12 months. Handler is decoy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IUAjQP7BY8c&feature=plcp


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

latest vid 
i liked it ...
only about 50 secs with a stick but i liked her grip throughout .... likes to bite and hold and they haven't made her out much ... dirty little pup bitch at this point


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

rick smith said:


> latest vid
> i liked it ...
> only about 50 secs with a stick but i liked her grip throughout .... likes to bite and hold and they haven't made her out much ... dirty little pup bitch at this point


"dirty"?

edited...nevermind I get what you are saying


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## kenneth roth (Jul 29, 2010)

Joby Becker said:


> I was gonna ask what what so brutal? in this video, but didn't....but now I guess I am...


 
I just see extra corrections being done to the dog nothing else


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Sometimes corrections especially prong "corrections" are stimulating for the dogs?


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