# HRD!Find-refind or alert only.....



## Kat Hunsecker (Oct 23, 2009)

.... what do you use and why?
Do you prefer alert, I.e. barking, laying etc. Or do you include the find refind?
Do you work on lead or of?


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

I've had dogs that have done all that.

For refinds: it's nice when the dog drops out of sight but when they go back they may not go back to the EXACT spot where they first indicated for. They may go back to the same general vicinity but that exact spot.

After some discussion on refinds with others, the other issue is I've seen the dog while doing a refind, fail to relocate the spot on the return for a variety of reasons. Some don't like the dog, because of this, leaving the location. 

For bark alert: works well in tricky footing areas where the dog may not have a good vantage to do a down or sit nor safe enough for a refind or is out of sight. Some don't like it because they say the dog will fringe to much and begin to bark while in odor but not necessarily at the source. I've seen some pinpoint well so it can go both ways. 

Sits and downs are fine but the dog may not perform due to a variety of reasons. Nothing wrong with either but dog may default to a new alert if necessary when they are unable to perform a down or sit.

Scratch alert: Easier for the dog to indicate the exact spot. Most dogs do a bit of exploratory digging anyway so it's easy to teach. Visually, it seems to make more of an impression on observers.

When it's all said and done, I like a dog that has both a passive and active alert system. A nice passive sit or down but an active paw swipe or scratch at the show me. This way, there is no property damage on the first alert but can ratchet up the response to show how serious the dog is about THIS spot and not another.

You need to be able to work the dog both on-lead and off-lead. So practice both.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

I would prefer a passive indication (sit or down) with a bark in case the dog gets out of sight. I have a simple passive indication. 

Both on lead and off lead because situations will require both.


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## Kat Hunsecker (Oct 23, 2009)

Thank you Sarah,
Thank you Nancy

You understood what I was asking for, I am not sure if I should teach both or not. 

She ranges far, but usually keeps eyesight range.
Barking I always found difficult, as the terrain can play many tricks with you... ;0
In her case unlikely to be used, she is not a barker...

We already go for on and off leash, You never know where you have to work...

the initial find is a standing and looking at it, not trained but natural, even occatiopnally some pawing. If I ask her to be more precise she will lay down and put the nose on it. But then I have to give a tug, or she will want to carry it ....

With her just getting started with the training, I want to make sure I don't have to reteach the behavior chain. so thanks for your input. As I only have to worry about the indication of her, and can built the refind if needed or not. 
We are back chaining so I have time to add behaviors before the final alert.... 
The refind is a concern for me, what if the terrain is big and her victim loyalty is great and she goes off and finds, but has no refind.... hope she will come get me? We were always big on a easily recognizable refind in area searches, this was a must for us if you worked off leash....
But I do understand the concern with the refind, if it is little traces, they will be harder to be refound.

what is your take on refinds, do your dogs do it? Or what happens when they are out of sight?


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

You get some ranging on HRD but a lot less I think than air scent live. And you will know when your dog ranges out that he is in odor by visual/auditory cues. Given the potential nature of HR (criminal, crime scene) most folks I know want their dog working more in visual range unless they hit odor. JMO.

Beau has offered a natural refind or will position himself where he can make eye contact and pull me in. I would greatly prefer a bark in those circumstances, but that is not a very common scenario...we tend to work our HR dogs during the daytime unlike the live find dogs.. The problem with just staying at source is finding your darned dog if you don't have an Astro or other radio collar.


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

I would start working on a the alert now. I don't really prefer the dog staring at the handler as an alert. Not to say I've not used that as a reason to investigate an area more but it would help to have more. Begin as you want to end. One thing about tacking on behaviors later is that, under stress or in unnatural situations, the dog reverts to the first learned behavior so take that under consideration. 

It is easy to add a refind onto a passive alert but again they tend to not go back to the exact spot they first marked with the down or sit. 

What I have found is that over time the dogs will learn to work closer to you for cadaver work and further out for live work. Practice looking for traces vs large. Some dogs like the tight close work, some don't. You want to give the dog freedom to work without being a micro-manager while still ensuring the area gets adequately covered. Both of you will find your middle ground.


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## Jim Delbridge (Jan 27, 2010)

Recall-refind tends to be more applicable to those dogs (handlers) that want a dog that does both live and recent dead. The dog tends to be trained in live first and already has a refind-recall, so why complicate issues. I don't particularly like this training, but it is popular around the US. I can see it more with trailing dogs being able to find their dead trail layer. I've trained multiple area search dog teams in "tissue only" so that they can work tornado damaged areas where someone might be unconscious but unresponsive and finding blood will be a bonus.

The down side to a recall-refind for an HRD-only dog is that it has to find the source twice and some sources are so hard to locate once that it just makes more sense for the dog to stay at source. I trained a down-stay on my second dog. She was so committed to source that finds often became a "find the dog to find the source." Because of that, I prefer a bark alert with a touch. This can get me into debates with trainers that prefer a passive alert, but I do way too many searches in heavy vegetation to worry about them. My dogs have no problem leaving me for scent and the last evaluator got to watch my dog alert to a high at about 80 yards away from me. He barked, climbed up the tree toward the source, then turned and resumed barking till I rewarded.

Your alert should be well thought out because I've suffered along with way too many handlers that changed alerts in a dog's career such that at testing they had to tell the evaluator all possible alerts. As a dog gets stressed, it often migrates to foundation or earlier training. One lady had to say, "primarily down, but could sit or bark." During that testing, the dog did all three and combinations of all. In court that is an open opportunity for the defense lawyer to screw with you.

Trackers are coming down in price, so a passive sit or down with a tracking collar could work if the dog's committment to source is solid. I prefer to go out in the field with minimal equipment because I just see it as something else to break. I've gone with some handlers with so much crap hanging on them to work the dog that they literally rattled as we went through the woods.

Ranging of dog in searching tends to be the result of the comfort zone of the handler. Most handlers want to watch their dog for hints from body posture changes. 

Jim


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## Kat Hunsecker (Oct 23, 2009)

Thank you, the alert will be a passive one, that's the one she offers and her first learned alert ever was laying for article indication.... she transferred that one herself and this is what I will stick with.... 

I was concerned as most of you pointed out about the refind....
as it poses either the chance of failure to relocate or a "lost handler" :mrgreen:

As I understood, most prefer alert only....


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