# Bomb Dog converted to Bed Bug Detection



## Jerry Cudahy (Feb 18, 2010)

Just heard from a credible detection handler that he was going to convert the dog.

I told him he was nuts. That he was going to have many false hits. 

Anyone here with experience converting from bomb to a new type of detection.

:-o

I told him to forget that idea and simply train a new dog. Heck his bomb dog is real good at bombs and at 8+ years, 5 tours of Iraq and Afgan seems dumb to me.

Also, Is anyone here doing Bed Bug Detection. I would like to learn more about this type of work. Pls private me.

jc


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

It is highly not a smart move for the simple fact of what you said. There are some private contractors in the northeast that are security handlers that have converted narc to bomb. They are checking places of business that fall in to govt work.

I think its dumb as hell because you clear a building and spend alot of tax money for the cavalry to arrive and then you relize big ****ing oops becuase it was a marijuana seed. Real real dumb move on the part of any and all that try to dual purpose a dog for two different scent disciplines.[-X


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Changing a dog over who is nearing retirement? Why not just start with a new dog or maybe this doing IS retiring and he is going to use it to work out any kinks with his training? (But not actually work it.....I could see that.....)


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Odor is odor is odor, the method of how the dog responds is the key, not the odor at all......passive........and again, near retirement....why?


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## shawn murace (Feb 20, 2007)

At 8 years old I would try a new dog. What I would be concerned about is how an individual is going to treat for bed bugs or will they farm it out to a pest company. Bed bugs are a bitch


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## shawn murace (Feb 20, 2007)

Another thing to realize is that once the dog alerts on an odor it's usually easy to distinguish if it's bugs, dope or an explosive powder (usually ammo or a gun tucked in a closet). In the case of a bed bug dog, the dog will come into play after the initial visual inspection from the tech turns up nothing or if it's a re-inspect after the home has been treated. 

Even though the dog is trained in multiple scents the handler can distinguish with fair certainty what the dog is hitting on. My experience is in using converting I.E.D. dogs for bugs. I've never handled a drug dog but assume it can't be much different if the handler knows what to look for other than just the alert from the dog.


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## Tim Connell (Apr 17, 2010)

"Let's see, do I call the exterminator, or the EOD team?" 

This idea is amazingly silly. How do you know the dog isn't reverting to what it's done for years, and hit on an explosive odor that you can't readily see? I guess mattresses could contain bedbugs, or explosive devices.

I don't think that's a chance I'd be willing to take.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Jerry Cudahy said:


> Just heard from a credible detection handler that he was going to convert the dog.
> 
> I told him he was nuts. That he was going to have many false hits.
> 
> ...


Hey Jerry,

Maybe this is just something to do with a dog that's ready to retire from active military duty and needs a retirement job?
You miss explosives someone could get killed. You miss a bed bug some one may get bit?


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## shawn murace (Feb 20, 2007)

Tim Connell said:


> "Let's see, do I call the exterminator, or the EOD team?"
> 
> This idea is amazingly silly. How do you know the dog isn't reverting to what it's done for years, and hit on an explosive odor that you can't readily see? I guess mattresses could contain bedbugs, or explosive devices.
> 
> I don't think that's a chance I'd be willing to take.


As I've stated before, the handler can tell with pretty good certainty what the dog is hitting on. That's if the handler knows what he's doing or if he's just relying solely on an alert from the dog and calling the room active for "x" (bed bugs, explosives, etc.) with no follow up to substantiate. I would probably think that someone thats actively hiding or manufacturing explosives wouldn't be concerned with bed bugs though. I would be more concerned with a converted drug dog picking up residual odor as opposed to a bomb dog picking up an explosive one. Thats only because i'm assuming there's more folks hiding drugs than explosives.


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## Ted Efthymiadis (Apr 3, 2009)

Jody Butler said:


> Odor is odor is odor, the method of how the dog responds is the key, not the odor at all......passive........and again, near retirement....why?



Ever train any bedbug dogs??????

It's a whole other story.

I know plenty of people who train narc dogs who fail terribly at training bedbug dogs....

Some of those dogs are switching over from Narc, and some are Green dogs.

Bedbugs are a different game altogether, I won't go into the specs because it would take too much time.

Getting a dog to hit on bugs is not an issue, getting them to be reliable is ..... very very hard.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I recently saw on the news about bed bug dog training is becomming one of the new scams. Like anything that works for a buck there are a ton of idiots and down right thieves that are taking advantage of it.
Not a knock on the real deal. It's just that it's growing in the sham world.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Bob Scott said:


> I recently saw on the news about bed bug dog training is becomming one of the new scams. Like anything that works for a buck there are a ton of idiots and down right thieves that are taking advantage of it.
> Not a knock on the real deal. It's just that it's growing in the sham world.


Oh its become pretty big business in all the tenant buildings in NYC, which is pretty much every building there. I grew up with alot of NYC folk I wouldn't doubt if there was some scamming going on there. Bob don't you know everybody in NY is a salesman LOL, all jokes aside though it has become very very big business in NY and probally every other heavy suburb and city.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Harry Keely said:


> Oh its become pretty big business in all the tenant buildings in NYC, which is pretty much every building there. I grew up with alot of NYC folk I wouldn't doubt if there was some scamming going on there. Bob don't you know everybody in NY is a salesman LOL, all jokes aside though it has become very very big business in NY and probally every other heavy suburb and city.



When I saw this on the news it was a subline to one of the major hotels in the downtown area that had a problem with the critters.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Bob Scott said:


> When I saw this on the news it was a subline to one of the major hotels in the downtown area that had a problem with the critters.


Good point never even thought about all the private and big corp chain hotels. Yea I do believe that the biggest demand for contracts in the future will not be govt but will be private in house contracts for critters.:-\"


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## Ted Efthymiadis (Apr 3, 2009)

Harry Keely said:


> Oh its become pretty big business in all the tenant buildings in NYC, which is pretty much every building there. I grew up with alot of NYC folk I wouldn't doubt if there was some scamming going on there. Bob don't you know everybody in NY is a salesman LOL, all jokes aside though it has become very very big business in NY and probally every other heavy suburb and city.


The only problem is, there is very few k9's and handler who can actually do the job with a good hit rate. 
Not to mention the lack of associations that can test the dogs to standards.... 

I could easily put some cocaine on the inside of a training can, with two bugs inside the can, take a video of the dog alerting on the "bedbugs" and post it on the internet and make $500 an hour. 

I know plenty of handler who are supposed to be the best of the best, and their dogs have a terrible hit rate.

I really hope someone steps up and starts something legit to test dogs!


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: I recently saw on the news about bed bug dog training is becomming one of the new scams

Ever see some of the videos of drug dogs working ? LOL Shamtastic !

THere is a good one in this video.

http://www.hulu.com/watch/192901/cops-probable-cause?c=Reality-and-Game-Shows#s-p1-so-i0

"Probably right here by the drivers side door"


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

Shysters everywhere I look


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: I recently saw on the news about bed bug dog training is becomming one of the new scams
> 
> Ever see some of the videos of drug dogs working ? LOL Shamtastic !
> 
> ...


I was riding in a car with a girl (fellow dog person) about 5 yrs ago.

She got pulled over, about 2 am after drinking a little, and got out and took something out of the console, walked to the trunk, opened it, and put it in there, (grabbed a jacket out of the trunk at the same time) The police were parked right behind us. It was plainly obvious to me, at the time I was scared it was narcotics or something. Because she was scared shytless.

They asked if they could search the car, she said no...

The K9 was called out.
In the mean time, the officer saw the girls open beer bottle in the car as well...
They brought the K9 to the car. All around the car, inside and out (due to probable cause of open beer), The dog NEVER indicated on anything, after an amazing 5-7 minute search!!!!

They let her go with a warning...after she passed a sobriety test and breathalyzer. 

When we got back to her house, she asked me to grab a box from under MY seat!!!!, which contained a small amount of weed, and about 50 roaches, as she popped the trunk and retrieved several ounces of weed in a couple bags...

That was the longest search I have ever heard of for a passenger car, I am quite sure the police were aware of what she did in the trunk..At the time I working with police dogs, and I was glad she (we) did not get in trouble, and at the same time extremely disappointed in the abilities of the K9 team, and the police in general, on that particular stop...sweet with as taste of bitterness. 


I am glad they did not just "say" the dog indicated. I am not positive she wouldn't have tried to blame me for what was under the passenger seat, needless to say I never rode in her car again after that.

It was a sad example of a detection dog team.

I don't know anything about bed bugs, but I did work for a guy that was training dogs to indicate on termites, and the success rate was very good, in terms of false positives, never heard of any in the field...I do not know how many termite infestations were missed, however..


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

So, the smell of bugs is stronger than the smell of pot ??


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> So, the smell of bugs is stronger than the smell of pot ??


My normal answer to a handler, with a question such as that, would be: test it. You won't know until you test it. My guess would be, however, pot would be stronger. 
The example Joby gave has some real problems from the sound of it. From the "probable cause", the dog being put inside the vehicle, to the officers not searching if they thought they had probable cause. Rookies with a bad dog I reckon.

DFrost


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

I doubt that Gerry. From what I smelled of it, ANY dog with a nose and good training should have hit on that car...it was really sad, that is the longest search I have heard of for a single car. and NOTHING...


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Is there some kind of formula I can use then ?? Like..she used 50 roaches for approx how much pot ??

Do they have to be alive or what ?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> Is there some kind of formula I can use then ?? Like..she used 50 roaches for approx how much pot ??
> 
> Do they have to be alive or what ?


What??

LOL...ok got ya...
roaches as in what is left of a "joint" after someone smokes it (burnt smelly pot) not bugs..:roll::roll::roll:


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Joby Becker said:


> What??
> 
> LOL...ok got ya...
> roaches as in what is left of a "joint" after someone smokes it (burnt smelly pot) not bugs..:roll::roll::roll:


I was just pullin your leg.


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> I was just pullin your leg.


Even I knew Gerry knows what a roach is .


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> I was just pullin your leg.


I figured it, fitting for a bug related thread though...


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Jim Nash said:


> Even I knew Gerry knows what a roach is .


unless the 70's slipped past him...


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Jim,
You have a lot of experience with K9's.

I have some, a few months here a year there...

I swear that dog was in and around the car for at least 6 minutes.... ever seen anything like that for a passenger car? I think the police KNEW what was up, and the dog team just failed...and they were reaching...for straws..I am not naive, I KNEW SOMETHING WAS UP, just glad it was only weed. She got out of the car and put something in the trunk, while the police were behind us..RIGHT IN FRONT OF THEM...I am sure they knew what was upo too. She grabbed a jacket out of the trunk as she hid the weed.. for a lame attempt at fooling the police..

I could never be a cop, because I would have SAID the dog indicated...LOL. and therefore would be a dirty cop...but it would have paid off...

we were both on the sidelines, talking back and forth how crappy the search was..she thought she was busted for sure..

I honestly never saw anything like it..it was bittersweet to me...happy the girl or ME didn't get in trouble, but greatly disappointed in the performance..I almost wrote an anonymous letter to that department.


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Joby Becker said:


> Jim,
> You have a lot of experience with K9's.
> 
> I have some, a few months here a year there...
> ...



Not going to comment on your deal because I don't know the whole story . I will give you my experiance with vehicle searches and Narc. detector work . I have trained many detection dogs and am a USPCA certified detector dog trainer . But I will admit searching for badguys is what I like to do most and Narc detection work is a distant 2nd . 


First off nothing is worth losing your job or going to prison for . Usually if you are aware enough and follow some very basic steps in investigating you can develope enough to legally search a vehicle . Many times just having a good technique in interviewing , you can get permission from the driver to search . I have very rarely been turned down when asking permission to search . 

In my state seeing an open container of alcohol in plainview means I can look anywhere inside the passenger compartment that may conceal other containers of liquor . Underneathe seats are a common spot . If I find drugs during the search then it opens up any area in the vehicle that might contain drugs to be searched . 

I am very aware of furtive movements , mostly for my safety and also because they many times are attempts to conceal a crime . I have found lots of guns , drugs , stolen items , etc. . Pretty basic stuff on vehicle stops . It's actually pretty comical sometimes how obvious people can be when they are trying to be sneaky . 

MJ is a VERY easy odor for the dog to hit on most of the time . The other odors can more difficult . IMO.

Both of my K9 partners have made some really good finds on vehicle searches from a single syringe , a small ziplock baggy with only residue , a couple of pounds of meth , to 100 lbs of MJ . They all have passed their certifications easily and searching vehicles is part of that certification . 

With that said real life searches can be more difficult then many people think . Odors can flow through a vehicle in weird ways . I won't go in to detail for obvious reasons . It's nice having a dog check everywhere on it's own but that doesn't happen all the time and the handler is the second part of the equation and at times must direct the dog to search areas . I have no doubt that once my partner is in narcotic odor that he will alert . It's getting him in the odor at times that can be the tough part . Interior vehicle searches can be tough especially for big dog like my 80lb. GSD . We are a team and for the most part I help him the best by staying out of his way and letting him work but there are times I may have to direct him to get him in the scent cone . 

I know it's an internet kind of thing to lead others to believe the writer is perfect but I will admit that I'm sure I have missed drugs and it bugs the crapout of me , but that's reality . I've had great dogs and having a Narc detector K9 searching greatly increases the chances of finding concealed drugs but none of them are perfect . 

It's not easy living with that nagging feeling we missed something and knowing the subjects of the search were probably having the same conversation about us that you have had about those officers but one thing I do know is experiance has shown me that eventually they will get caught so risking my freedom and career just isn't worth it . 

On the flip side of your story when I first started training my first K9 partner on narcotic odor I used my hunting Lab to contaminate rooms . I would rub his nose on areas , take his paws and have him scratch up surfaces and just let him run around . 

Out of curiousity I started training him in narc detection and he caught on very fast . Later I gave him to my brother . Years later my brother gets ahold of me and tells my the dog had alerted , out of the blue , to a purse belonging to a women he had had over , that contained a small amount of MJ . Dogs are amazing just not perfect . Same goes for cops .


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## shawn murace (Feb 20, 2007)

Ted Efthymiadis said:


> I really hope someone steps up and starts something legit to test dogs!


There's an outfit in Southern Pines NC that will be coming out with testing protocol. Right now there's a place in Arkansas (I'm too lazy to search) that does it. The big entomologist group that does the certifications is more of a circus than anything else.
Unfortunately anyone can make a dog sit and have it look impressive to a potential customer. Especially when they're desperate to get the bugs gone.

I believe the scammers will weed themselves out though.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I have to say that if a dog misses pot, although kinda silly, I could care less. If the dog misses meth, that would make me angry if I really thought that it was there. I am not a fan of drug use, but have seen some real damage done by meth and the "other" drugs. 

I have been told by guys that I know that they will go over a vehicle even if the dog has went over it. Just so that they can be sure.


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I have to say that if a dog misses pot, although kinda silly, I could care less. If the dog misses meth, that would make me angry if I really thought that it was there. I am not a fan of drug use, but have seen some real damage done by meth and the "other" drugs.
> 
> I have been told by guys that I know that they will go over a vehicle even if the dog has went over it. Just so that they can be sure.



When I get called to do a search of a vehicle , when I'm done and haven't had an alert , I inform the Officers and always tell them to search the vehicle themselves . I often help out too . We do this on SWAT searches too for people also .

They are dogs , if you don't get them in the scent cone they have no odor to hit on . Rooms in buildings behave different making it difficult at times to locate or pinpoint where a suspect is hiding . Some rooms exhale sending scent out of the room for the dog to find , some rooms inhale(a draft that draws air into the room) making it tough for the dog . The rooms draft can reverse if the heat or air conditioning comes on or off . 

I've set up hides knowing the scent movement in a building where I could get the dogs to bark at a wall directly across from the hide . The dogs didn't screw up they were doing the right thing and hitting on where the human odor was the strongest . 

Vehicles can have similar drafts , plus just alot of confined areas for you dog to need to put his head into in oder to get into scent . 

Herion and opium are pretty easy . Crack and coke right behind that . But Meth I have seen more dogs have problems with then any other drug . Regardless of the odor though in some situations it can be tougher then most people think .


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## Jerry Cudahy (Feb 18, 2010)

http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/12/01/new.york.bed.bugs/index.html?hpt=T2


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I recently saw a program that showed exterminators using heat to kill bed bugs. One of the reasons is because of the over use of insecticides aka the program.
It seemed to be very effective.


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## Jerry Cudahy (Feb 18, 2010)

Bed Bugs have a " Drive" Heat triggers that Drive, The little buggers are attracted to human and animal body heat. It is how they find their blood meal.

Genetics/drives plays an important part in why the heat kill method works.

Like moths attracted to a flame.

The bed bugs are cooked because of the food drive.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Jerry Cudahy said:


> Bed Bugs have a " Drive" Heat triggers that Drive, The little buggers are attracted to human and animal body heat. It is how they find their blood meal.
> 
> Genetics/drives plays an important part in why the heat kill method works.
> 
> ...



Heat....add clickers! :-k -k ....... I'm going to start a business called "The Pied Piper Of bedbugs" 
Clicker train a few hard, dominant, alpha leader type bedbugs to come to the sound of a pin coming out of a WP grenade. The rest will follow! :wink:
!!Problem solved!! :-D


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

High Speed Alert?

Supposedly, a drug dog is along the Interstate on an unrelated case and
"alerts" on another car speeding by. Car is pulled over up the road for speeding and drugs are found. What do you all think? Some people have said they might believe pot but not cocaine or anything else.
If this were possible it would make drug detection easier


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

Hypothetical but I could see it playing out like this-Dog is out of car-car speeds by-dog shows a noticable change in behavoir as car drives by. Car is pulled over for speeding-officer smells what is obviously marijuana-searches car finds drugs.

as far as an "alert" it would be highly doubtful. JMHO


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

I can easily think of three or four really good arguments against such a thing happening. If I can think of them a good defense lawyer would have no problem. On the other hand, I have seen the "mobile" detection vans. Although, personally, I'm a bit skeptical, I've always wanted to build on and try it. 

DFrost


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Is this on the dog's training log as a trained or even an observed and recorded behavior? :-k [-X
Just a civilian observation!


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

David Frost said:


> I can easily think of three or four really good arguments against such a thing happening. If I can think of them a good defense lawyer would have no problem. On the other hand, I have seen the "mobile" detection vans. Although, personally, I'm a bit skeptical, I've always wanted to build on and try it.
> 
> DFrost


David,

It was just an anecdotal story. The car was pulled over for speeding and the drugs were found by other means (smell or ?)
I don't think a 75 MPH "alert" would work as probable cause to
stop anyone.
This reminds me of the supposed new technique they're using to avoid heat fatigue with dogs. Supposedly they suck some air out of the interior of cars crossing the border and catch it in a filter. The dog sits in an air condition room and they have the dog sniff the filters. It the dog indicates they pull the car out of line.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

I have a friend that is testing a machine that straps on the dogs head like gas mask,sort of...like a muzzle...it is fed by a tube that goes to a backpack for the handler, which contains a high powered vaccum, that has a intake hose/wand...the system cuts the velocity down to a flow level that is workable for the dog, through the use of filters. The dog does not have to search. only smell and indicate...I have seen it used in training , and it did work for those training sessions...

I thought it was pretty cool..probably shouldnt have said anything about it LOL..now that I think about it...


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