# Hunt vs hunt tests



## Edward S Weiss (Aug 19, 2016)

Took Kasbah back in the field with the opening of bird hunt season.
As usual the whole spectum of upland guys in blaze orange were there with the big running dogs,mostly pointers a few setters and a sprinkling of spaniels.
Weather was balmy,but fields dense with thorns scrub bushes, small trees and huge areas of good cover. This is real different from hunt tests generally,flat level and scatteres with dizzied birds 50 to 100 yards apart.
Kas quickly figured what was going on,covered ground sans my whistle direction,put up 5 birds the first day,first two for us and the next 3 for a friend who wasn't having much luck.


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## Misty Wegner (May 22, 2015)

Way to go Kas!!


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

VERY nice!


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## Gerald Guay (Jun 15, 2010)

Nice Job. Thanks for posting news regarding your dog and Dales in general.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Sounds like a great way to spend the day.


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## Edward S Weiss (Aug 19, 2016)

It occured to me that there is a parallel between hunt tests and hunting where the former requires tight obedience,doing hunt like pantomines, points lost for minor obedience infractions and how "real hunting dogs" need to be reigned in to succeed.I was told by my dog having several years hunting I was at a disadvantage competeing in hunt tests. Reasons given include:
Dog would not be used to micromanagement the test required, ie the judge walking not far behind the dog,the birds close with limited escape ability after being dizzied in contrast to wild birds quick to flush and escape,very short relative distance to birds,patterned search and so on...
Seems as there is a parallel with VPG and "real police or protection" dogs.
Just as hard driving hunters may not make best "test takers" do the best VPG dogs make the best real service dogs? What does this mean re: breeding choices?
What does this say to breeding selection for working dogs?


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

Edward
glad to see you are enjoying Kasbah

sorry, but i'm not clear on some of the terms you have used

- what does "dizzied" mean ?
- does "test" mean evaluation for sport or trials potential or is it being used as a synonym for sport ?
- does "real hunting dogs" mean a dog that has not had formal training in a sport that mimics real life hunting ?
- how would you classify Kas ?

the term "working" has always had many meanings in the dog world. even the word "real" has a wide variety of interpretations 
some breeders are very specific on how they evaluate potential breeding stock. some just want to breed dogs that are easy to control. probably just depends on their end game

PSD's and most MWD's need to "hunt" in the sense that they must find catch and hold rather than find catch and kill that is required of other types of hunting dogs
- that's why i think all the different 'drive' terms have been used to describe canine behaviors when people consider them as "working dogs"


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Edward S Weiss said:


> What does this mean re: breeding choices? What does this say to breeding selection for working dogs?


It depends upon the breeder. Choices are made first and foremost by their established priorities, which most certainly include self interests.


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## Edward S Weiss (Aug 19, 2016)

In hunt tests birds are made temporarily "dizzy" by a positional technique,then placing them in undergrowth such that the bird does not run off or fly away before a test dog approaches to "flush" ie make the bird or make it fly.
Wild birds in a hunting situation have no such impairment,and are much more elusive.
I' m not critical of hunt tests or VPG but these are simulations which over time seem to drift further from the real life challenges hunting or police service dogs really face.
It has been a few years since I did VPG but many dogs that titled would not necesarily be police service dog quality. In a similiar fashion Hunt tests are fun ...
but.....


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I think even a top level VPG dog doesn't necessarily make it a great candidate for actual street work.

The character of the dog is critical because the VPG training today is so precise that you don't necessarily see the "real" dog in there and many VPG dogs aren't weaned off the sleeve as would be a street K9. Not all of course. 

IMHO I think the good ring dogs are probably close to the stree K9s simply because most of the different ring trails aren't as structured as the VPG dogs.

The dogs are exposed to more different looks in the protection phase. 

The excellent street K9 often doesn't have the precise "finishings" on it's obedience to do well in the trials.

That has absolutely NO indication that the dog isn't good on the street.

As to real hunting and trials I can only comment of earth work trials vs real earth work.

I've done booth with the same terriers. 

The earth work trials are a timed even so getting down that 30ft tunnel and any sort of "work" on the dog's part will qualify it for the earth dog titles. 

That's a 9inch x 9 inch man made tunnel.

In the natural earth work the dog often has to dig and squeeze through roots in order to get up to the quarry and I've had dogs locate under ground 30 -40 feet from the entrance and anywhere from 2-3 feet below ground up to 7-8 ft below ground. 

A natural tunnel is rarely larger then 6in diameter and can narrow and open up into a number of different chambers.

It may take 5 -10 mins to find the quarry. Not just beating the 30 sec time limit in a trial. 

Not all but I've seen excellent, natural earth working dogs slow down a bit in a trial tunnel simply because they know what's in front of them and it's never a caged rat. 

Some trials have what's called a super earth that is longer with many turns, blind ends, water traps, areas the dogs have to dig through, you name it.

"Generally" the natural hunters do better at this.


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## Edward S Weiss (Aug 19, 2016)

In view of above thought I'd share a letter I recieved from Jim Engel,that speaks to the deviation from real,that tests of all types are subject to over time.

"United Schutzhund Clubs of America
A message from our President:
(Originally written in May 2014 - slight revision with recent FCI development.)
With recent developments regarding the removal of stick hits in the 2017 FCI Championship, great conversation, concern, and debate has taken place. What has also surfaced from this is the question of USCA's dependence and reliance on the European rules for our breed test.
When Schutzhund first came to America, we needed assistance with training, rules, methods, philosophies, etc. Over the last 40 years, our country has made great strides in all of these areas. USCA has grown - our helpers, tracklayers, competitors, judges, and members have all learned and have become, in many ways, pioneers at what they do.
I don't advocate any kind of declaration of independence or cessation from the guidance Europe provides; there has been considerable time and effort expended to standardize the rules of IPO around the world - in many ways this was a great step. However, if these rules ever threaten the core of what we do to test our dogs to ensure breed worthiness, we have an obligation to our breed to question and where necessary, deviate. I will always work to ensure that we have a healthy relationship with our European partners, rooted in cooperation and mutual respect. In return, they will respect our right to make variances where we feel necessary.
Schutzhund (IPO) has evolved to become an excellent hobby, pastime, international sport.however, at its core, and what we should always remember, is that it is a breed test for our dogs. Without that foundation and purpose, then removing stick hits, balanced aggression, biting, courage tests, all becomes more likely and the eventual conclusion.
To that end, I hope to ease everyone's minds about the future of our German Shepherd Dog. It is the driving force behind every decision that I (we) make. Let me be very clear. Under the current administration, and so long as I have a voice within the organization, we will never: * Eliminate biting;
* Eliminate the courage test;
* Eliminate stick hits;
* Eliminate the value placed on strong, demanding, aggressive barking.
Thanks to each of you for your continued efforts for this organization.
Jim Alloway
USCA President
[email protected]"


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Very interesting article.

The fact is the word Schutzhund is now frowned upon simply because it means protection dog.

That term no longer sits well with the public so PC arises it's head.

The attack out of the blind no longer exists in the Schutzhund/IPO test.

Why? Because the GSDCA show world no longer puts emphasis on that test not ot mention to many show dogs were getting run off the field during that test. 

Like it or not the WDA is controlled by the GSDCA when it comes to votes on issues that arise in the organization. 

USA isn't much different.

Fortunately there are still serious breeders that will not let the breed become the same dogs that do their flying trot around the ring.

I've been to (watch) two GSDCA Sieger shows at Purina Farms outside St. Louis. 

In order to show or receive a Sieger title the dog mus go through a protection phase. 

It's a joke. Of the 150 or so dogs entered there were maybe 5-6 of these SCH III dogs that I would take home. 

Some wouldn't engage the helper. Some wouldn't stay in grip when the helper applied any pressure on the dogs. You name it the dogs were a joke. 

Those out there like you Ed are the people that keep a breed doing what it was bred to do.

Hopefully there are enough breeders out there like you Ed that will keep the excellent all around working qualities in the different working breeds be they herders, Police K9s, hunting dogs, you name it.

End of rant!


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

putting the politics aside for a moment ...

flying around blinds without without looking is almost the same as trotting around a show ring

"protection" testing by definition should require a threat to the handler that requires a dog to protect

biting has nothing to do with protection and will always be judged subjectively depending on the bite sport being judged. in fact they don't even want to call it "biting" ... the purists want to refer to it as a "grip" 

barking has little to do with protection.  whether the bark is judged to be aggressive or not is ALWAYS subjective if it isn't paired with a bite

desensitizing a dog to being hit with a stick has nothing to do with testing protection either

my current dog is a perfect example
- it can and has destroyed a variety of tugs; even when attached to a body part
- it can and does bark so loud you feel the air pressure on your face
- i can hit it with a stick
....but in no way shape or form would i consider it a "protection dog”

HOWEVER
i certainly consider him a very "real dog”

i feel strongly we should all get over trying to compare bite sports with psd/mwd jobs in regards to saying one is “REAL” and the other is not.

KNPV, FRENCH RING, MONDIO RING, IPO, PSA and all the other bite sports are just that. At the highest levels they are all difficult and different while being the same……dog sports involving biting, but they are not “protection” sports like so many wish they were

the hard core who think the sports are getting "watered down" are often the same people who try and profess loudly that they are tests of "protection". 
- sorry, but they can't have their cake and eat it too
- ANY sport is a watered down version of real life

my vote for which sport most closely relates to protection is PSA with KNPV coming in second.....then the ring sports followed closely behind
IPO has always been last
- but i consider them all to be REAL sports with REAL dogs and a FAR cry from the show ring (which i don't consider as a sport)

but it doesn't matter ... it's just my opinion; which certainly doesn't matter either //ROTFLMAO//


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

wish the SAR crowd would invent a SAR related dog sport. they already have nose work sports. i'm sure it could be done. 

then we could argue if the sport SAR dogs were real SAR dogs and how the breeding related to each type //LOL//


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

the precision control require in sports like PSA and French Ring require many hours of training.

i've spoken with Ring breeders that have trained world champions. They told me the dogs that can't cut it at high levels are the ones they sell to police organizations.

that makes sense to me since psd work may not require that level of control
...BUT...
- if PSD K9 handlers had enough time to devote to more precise control (call offs, outing, etc), i think it would reduce the number of handling problems in public that get blasted all over on youtube vids.

sure, there are K9 handlers that do NOT want their K9 to crisply out with a verbal (and prefer a "tactical out") unless it's re-cert time 
- i can agree with that in principle.
- but otoh, focus on more precise control would probably reduce the number of bad press vids that get posted on youtube, and that would help boost the K9 police community's image in the direction it should be portrayed.

by the way, it's not as much of a problem in the MWD world since MWD handlers operate in a more "handler friendly" environment : on military bases with controlled access and in restricted areas where J Q citizen rights are limited 

wish this thread could migrate back to how it all relates to breeding. that topic interests me more than talking about "protection" sports and "real" dogs


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

so Edward
based on your experience

do you think working dog breeders should test and develop natural instincts first and then train the control aspect later, or vice versa ?

do you think breeders should also be trainers and compete in the sport that most closely resembles their dog's genetics ?

if there are any breeders lurking, feel free to offer your viewpoints on the subject regardless of the type work you do
- hate it when we talk about breeding and no breeders participate :-(


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## Edward S Weiss (Aug 19, 2016)

There are many motivations involved with breeders and they are not mutually exclusive....money,desire for recognition,love of their breed,pride in accomplishment...etc
For functional dogs...work...hunt etc...motivation and drive is everything.
As was told to me many moons ago "ya can handle a high dawg down,but forgit bringing a low dawg up!


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Edward S Weiss said:


> There are many motivations involved with breeders and they are not mutually exclusive....money,desire for recognition,love of their breed,pride in accomplishment...etc
> For functional dogs...work...hunt etc...motivation and drive is everything.
> As was told to me many moons ago "ya can handle a high dawg down,but forgit bringing a low dawg up!


Simple and to the point! 

The bite sports are compared simply because they are the offshoot of the "real world" K9s.

The bird dog trials are an offshoot of real world bird hunting.

Terrier den trails are an offshoot of natural earthwork.

The AKC competition OB dog was developed by those that wanted to promote a well behaved family pet. 

It turned into a show of precision and a competitive sport because of those that wanted more.

I've often said that I would rather have a good truck dog then a high level sport dog.

I had a Nationally ranked dog in AKC OB in the 80s but I'd be first to say he wouldn't be worth a crap if he wasn't a dog I could enjoy taking anywhere and everywhere under my total voice control. 

I've see many of those "sport" dogs from numerous different dog sports that would still swipe the turkey off the table if given the chance yet perform brilliantly on the competition field. 

To ME that's not even a good dog. 

Obviously things are different today and I don't know to many that would argue that but it's impossible to not compare them simply because most all the dogs sports are offshoots of the real world work a dog is trained to or required to perform.


Often watered down and formalized at best but still enjoyment for those who choose to participate.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

breeding dogs is simple

breeding good dogs is not simple

improving breeds is not simple. if it was, all breeds would be getting better. high drive mals are one example

i hold breeders to much higher standards than owners

breeders who participate in the sport that matches the genetics of their breed of choice have always been the best breeders in my book

motivation and drive is certainly a factor but for me it's not everything. balance is usually what makes a potentially good dog great.
too many "high drive" mals become problem dogs, but this happens to other breeds too. JRT's, setters, cockers come to mind

ime, the higher the drive, the more handling expertise is required by the owner whether they participate in a sport or not


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

we all know breeders breed for a variety of reasons....

re: "Just as hard driving hunters may not make best "test takers" do the best VPG dogs make the best real service dogs? What does this mean re: breeding choices?
What does this say to breeding selection for working dogs?"

I thought these were the Q's being discussed

that's why i asked what now drives Ed's breeding choices and how he feels about breeders, etc
- sorry to have digressed with my rant about what constitutes a "real dog" and how i don't feel protection sports test "protection", etc etc

but as it relates to Kasbah i am curious if he now feels a hunting breed should be allowed to hunt before control is trained rather than train hunt simulations in the hopes that the dog will later be able to hunt for real. i'm not really talking about how good a pet it might make, as in the "truck dog" analogy. we would all like a dog we can live with at home as well as allow it to do "its thing" when out in the field. that's where balance plays a big part

regarding VPG and PSD work, i think it's a bit of apples and oranges, and this has been documented here before. not all sport dogs make good psd's, but some do. it's a wash....really depends a lot more on the ability of the trainer and their training goals rather than if one venue helps the other one
- but there are VERY few breeders who breed specifically for PSD work. even KNPV breeders seem to be straying from that goal :-(
- lots of brokers though, and i think the majority are driven by profit margins or alternative buyers looking for "personal protection dogs" .... neither are wholesome reasons :-(

interesting topic for me, but i don't breed so i wish breeders would participate.

i'm probably wrong but still hope this forum isn't as dead as it seems


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## Edward S Weiss (Aug 19, 2016)

From a practical point of view,hunting Kasbah before trialing her was an error.
Lots of test requirements are best learned without a different set of pre learned behavior that "hunting" in large non confined spaces where there may be miles instead of yards between birds.
Kasbah was also an unconventional choice in some ways as her background was 100% either VPG and or Police Service. See below
http://en.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/1038602/Kasbah-vom-Treffenwald

What became apparent to me there is a confluence of canine drives that at least in some lines of Airedales that can be channeled in what would seem very different venues.
There is a lot going on I'm still trying to understand.
Kas loves all my buddies,will grab them with her front paws for a hug.
This is the same dog at 11 months who explained to a guy pan handling my wife including grabbing her sleeve he needed toback off Pronto.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I will add that ALL of the 6 different terrier breeds I've owned be they show, hunting, sport, whatever were expected to be good "truck dogs". 

For ME this also applies to excellent manners around people and live stock. 

Most were typical zany, off the wall terriers but it was never a problem keeping them under my control

Would any of them protect? All the terriers were excellent alarm dogs. A couple of them showed a strong desire to engage. One JRT actually went after a friend of my son because they were horsing around and son's friend was getting to rough.

The dog gripped the kid on the quad and son had to pry his dog off the kids leg. 

As mentioned a Protection dog can cover a lot of meaning.

My SCH III GSD did a very nice job on the sport field.

Even as a 7 month old pup he attempted to go after a vagrant that approached my van in a parking lot.

I was sitting in a parking lot, in the front seat, door open when the vagrant walked up to the van and the dog came over the top of my lap snarling at the guy.

Would he have engaged?? Who knows but his helper and a few other helpers told me they liked his serious attitude.

He never allowed anyone near the car, the yard or house without me. 

FOR ME that's all I ever required of a "protection dog". That and a CCW.

Most ANY dog can be taught to bite. It's the character of the dog and good training that keeps the dog in the fight.

As Ed does, I've always worked to have a dog that could be trained in multiple venues. I believe both the GSD and the Dale can fit that description in spades. 

A few of my small terriers also fit the "Multiple venue"easily.


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## Gerald Guay (Jun 15, 2010)

Ed said:



> From a practical point of view,hunting Kasbah before trialing her was an error.


At one time I had GWP and Pudelpointers and we trained and trialed NAVHDA. Everything required to pass the NAVHDA tests served us well and made them better hunting dogs in the field


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## Edward S Weiss (Aug 19, 2016)

I can see that,the difference I believe is the nature of NAVHDA,that is focused on producing Hunting dogs from their early Hunting instinct tests and encouragement of field ability in more advanced tests and its influence on breeding.
Saw smiliar effects produced in Drahthaars from their registry.
Airedales in AKC are relegated to the Upland flushing test which is basically a spaniel test where the dog casts right and left in a tight pattern which is not a feasible method for large areas of cover.
Looking to do retriever stuff, but again AKC does not admit Airedales.:
We have HRC ( Hunt to retrive) and a few Airedales are doing reall well...hope to give it a shot.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

It's the actual breed clubs that determine what is eligible to compete in the different venues.

I think they just don't want to be shown up by a "different" breed. :lol::wink:

AKC herding is very structured but the AHBA is much more realistic and the dog doesn't get penalized for correct use of it's mouth. 

GO FOR IT on the HRC!


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## Edward S Weiss (Aug 19, 2016)

Last week brought a a friend,the Airedales really dig into dense cover that a lot of the big running "pointy" dogs avoid.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Rougher coat, rougher attitude for going in the rough.:wink:

Ed, not sure if I've asked this before but do you run into any particular issues getting a soft mouth retrieve with the Dales?


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## Edward S Weiss (Aug 19, 2016)

Pretty astute question,and it was the basis of flunking my first try at Master Hunter.
As I mentioned the birds in the test are dizzied so a hard driving dog will catch them on the ground or pull them out of the air as they take flight.
Kas brought the pheasant back as if it was sleeping,intact no blood but deceased.
To stop this I had her retrieve bumpers that were modified by my me to be unpleasant to squeeze tightly with command "Easy".
Initial duck water retrieves were worse,she thought of them as aquatic snacks.
Had to think about this, used a long line,with short retrieves and a collar jerk "NO" fixed it. An ecollar would have been easier but I worried it would just terminate the entire water retrieve.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

The "oldtime" retriever trainers would make a retriever dummy with nails pointing outwards. 

My Kerry Blue hated feathers so much that he only retrieved birds by the beak or feet but he would shred anything with fur on it. 

Embarrassing yes but I never even thought about trialing him. Just did it because.


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