# Prong collar and e-collar



## Mark Sloan (Feb 28, 2008)

I was just wondering what the general consensus is among those who use prong and/or e-collars as to what age is appropriate to begin using each. Thank you.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Condition the dog to it as young as possible. A tiny pup can wear a prong. No need to attach a leash. A tiny pup can wear and ecollar or dummy collar. No need to use it.

If you condition the pup to the ecollar ALSO condition the pup to the transmitter!! :lol:


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

Mark Sloan said:


> I was just wondering what the general consensus is among those who use prong and/or e-collars as to what age is appropriate to begin using each. Thank you.


Depends on the pup and what you are looking to do with him/her


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## Mark Sloan (Feb 28, 2008)

I would use the prong for better control on walks at the moment. My current 6 month Mal is a hard dog with drive out tha a**. I've used the prong and e-collar on my 4 year old working German Shepherd; I just can't remember when I started.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Mark age is a number! For MOST young animals, I wouldn't use either. Once you go to the electric, your choice beyond that is very limited...

If you are dealing with a real pisser of a 9 month old, a fine prong would be the only other choice. Flat is where it's at!!!!!!


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## Michael Breton (Aug 25, 2008)

I put a puppy prong on at 7 weeks or so and just let them wear it. After a couple weeks I dead ring it and use it for walks, no corrections except behavior problems (like chewing on me or someone else).

My view is if they take small corrections, small being the key word there, they don't take offense later on in life. If you wait until they get bigger some dogs get flat out pissed about corrections or they shut down. Neither is a good scenario for a working dog.

I don't use an e-collar on puppies at all, but sometimes let them wear one just so they don't associate it with corrections as big dogs. I can't see why anyone would need an e-collar on a puppy except maybe to use the pager to get the pups attention. 

I have heard of using to to house break the pup, but never saw the need. Don't get me wrong I LOVE e-collars and use them all the time, just not on puppies. I LOVE prongs too and use them all the time even on pups. The whole teeth on the neck concept seems to really work well with puppies. I hate choke chains and fur savers as most people use them incorrectly and they are not as effective as the prong. They are banned at my training facility and everyone has to use a prong collar or go somewhere else. I'm not known for being politically correct. I have a friend who lost two Dobies to them when they got caught on a fence and strangled before he could get to them.

Michael


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## Mark Sloan (Feb 28, 2008)

I have been considering trying the prong on the Mal. I was just asking about the e-collar for down the road. I was thinking a year old would be a good round number for the e-collar.


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

starting with a prong at the age i start ob, around 8/9 mo. E- collar in regular training: when needed, usually not very early (15-18 mo.) Sometimes around the 7 mo, when they start having bananas in their earis with "come here" use it only once or twice, than they remember what "hier" is. That's the only command that they learn before the 8 mo.


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## Jeannie Helton (Aug 10, 2008)

Just thought I would share!  I'm going to be trying something new with my 1 year old. Thought you might like to hear for consideration.

I will be getting an e-collar here in a few weeks; the Tri-Tronics Sport Combo G3, which has an option for tone only (no stim) on the basic setting. I plan on using the e-collar right away, but ONLY the tone button. I want to use it as a bridge, especially for distance affirmation (long down, vorous, etc) I plan on putting a completely positive spin on the e-collar for my dog. Collar = reward (food/toy) So he will acclimate to the collar with no problems, and will actually get excited to wear the collar. We are, afterall, in the _training_ stage, so there really is no need for corrections at this point. Just shaping, learning, and LOTS of fun for getting things correct and in the right direction.

Then, later on down the road, like 6-9 months, when it becomes obvious that he KNOWS an exercise and is choosing to not do it, or break without being given a release, then I will begin to integrate the stim portion of the collar into my tone marker. 

But here comes the REALLY neat trick I learned from a training director in Canada: WATER! Comes the day that I will actually use the collar, I will put a little water on the dogs neck. Not where the contacts directly touch the neck of course; just a few inches below that. In that training session he will get the stim. I will intersperse some training sessions in the beginning without the water, and will not stim the dog. After a few sessions of "water on neck" = stim, the dog makes the association NOT with the e-collar itself being the culprit, but with the addition of the water on the neck. 

Then later, you can use just the water without the collar and the dog will pay attention to what he is doing, because the WATER causes the correction, not the e-collar.  

ADDITIONAL NOTE: Make sure that you DO NOT start water/stim corrections when it is raining though!!! lol

Hope that makes sense. Happy training and have fun with your little puppy!!!


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## Laura Bollschweiler (Apr 25, 2008)

Jeannie Helton said:


> Just thought I would share!  I'm going to be trying something new with my 1 year old. Thought you might like to hear for consideration.
> 
> I will be getting an e-collar here in a few weeks; the Tri-Tronics Sport Combo G3, which has an option for tone only (no stim) on the basic setting. I plan on using the e-collar right away, but ONLY the tone button


I didn't really read your post past this spot...but just wanted to say I have the Sport G3 and I'll be ditching it for a better model. I do like the ergonomic design of the remote, but that's its best feature. Oh, I do use the tone feature to check if it's operating. I'll hang on to it in case I need to train something that might feel it.

Again, I didn't read your post very well, there was something about water...so maybe this collar will be a good choice for you. I hope you've tried one before shelling out the bucks.

Laura


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## Pascale Breton (Aug 22, 2008)

I don't like that collar either. I use the Dogtra models which have a pager instead. The dog sometimes ignores the tone, but never the vibrator. A bit off topic, but anyone else have any opinion ? Maybe we need to start a new thread.

Also, I have tried the tricking the dog about the e-collar using lots of methods and the dog WILL figure it out. It also happens all the time in detector work when the reward comes from "GOD", not the trainer. The dog will catch you sooner or later. Instead we just show the dog the reward and let them earn it. They know how.

I try to make the e-collar neutral if possible. We use them for off lead bitework, call offs etc... after the dogs knows what is expected; the dog knows the possibility of a correction is there, but so is the possiblilty of a bite. It is up to the dog to decide which path to seek. Sometimes they choose wisely, sometimes not.

Now the dogs get amped by the collar, they know the possibilty of a bite is there and know how to avoid a correction. They will drive a stck shift for a bite!

I really like the pager for recalling the dog when it can't see me. Not fair to nick the dog to get it's attention. Like throwing a rock at you to get you to look at me. It works, but doesn't seem fair. My Aussie knows first comes the page so come back cause second is not the page. If I have forward motion towards me there is never a correction.


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## Mo Earle (Mar 1, 2008)

Prong- 8 weeks, e-collar 5-6 months....although at this point, the pups aren't getting heavy corrections, they at this stage are being taught and given direction and guidance.


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## ben peron (Aug 19, 2008)

I own a Dogtra and two different Tri-tronics collars. One is an old style LR100 and my latest is the new Generation 3. I would not own a Dogtra again. I liked the Dogtra at first because it was lightweight and the transmitter was small and easy to hold. However, it soon became unreliable. One thing anyone needs in an e-collar is reliability. When I hit that button, I need it at that precise moment to send the correct messsage to my dog. The Dogtra often failed. The Tri-tronics never let me down. Also Stimulation is what got me sticking to Tri-Tronics. The stimulation is much smoother on the Tri-Tronics as opposed to the Dogtra. The best way to describe the Dogtra is that it is punchy and some of the older models are have a slight delay, which i tested on a meter for accuracy and it failed. Another feature that you have to consider is the dial as opposed to click setting. Consistency is what i want about when it comes to training.


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## Alegria Cebreco (Jul 25, 2007)

I use a martingale collar up until 5-6 months, then the prong comes out :twisted: . I dont use any corrections, its just easier to walk with a prong (yes, I use it as a "band aid"). I dont like to train the heel too young. OB I train all off leash (its alot easier to just add a leash later). Never used an e-collar. Might get one when my pup (9 months) gets older.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

wow prongs at early ages. What a bunch of weirdos. I just put a really good foundation of OB on the dog first in a place where I am not fighting distractions all the time.

I ****ing hate when I see people correcting dogs that obviously do not understand what is being asked of them, and I hate to see new people given ways to learn to correct first, wonder if you were wrong second, type train.

Behavioral issues I have no problems with giving a dog a crack in the butt, I just think too many people use compulsion as a crutch.

And, I just slap the thing on when I get to that point where I need to use corrections.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I'm on my second GSD with no choke, pinch, e-collar, physical correction whatsoever during training. I guess I just haven't figured out when to use them anymore. :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :twisted: :razz:


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> wow prongs at early ages. What a bunch of weirdos. I just put a really good foundation of OB on the dog first in a place where I am not fighting distractions all the time.
> 
> I ****ing hate when I see people correcting dogs that obviously do not understand what is being asked of them, and I hate to see new people given ways to learn to correct first, wonder if you were wrong second, type train.
> 
> ...


Jeff a good point, correcting first and training second=; and why do you need the prong? Bob how many tough dogs have you seen that might have needed a flat collar to get better training? I like the "canned" approach, one size fits all, one method for all dogs, and when all else fails with the little ones, prong the life out of them! RIGHT!=D>


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Water on the neck with an ecollar is an old trick from the old days, but it sure wasn't used to fool the dog into thinking the correction came from water! [-X 

I start using ecollars and pinch collar after the dog knows the exercize and when he is mature enough to handle stress and corrections. I don't start at any particular age, it's based on the maturity of the dog.


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## Alegria Cebreco (Jul 25, 2007)

Just because you use a prong does not mean you are correcting the dog. Honestly, I'm not going to walk down the street with a 65lb no manners pup. I dont teach the heel that early, and I dont want to fight with my dog nor pull a muscle in my arm. A prong allows my pup to be "free" but at the same time he isnt dragging me down the street.

I guess it comes down to what YOU want and what you expect.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: Just because you use a prong does not mean you are correcting the dog.

What are you, mental ?? How do you figure ??? Seriously, use the search function and find out the correct definition of correction. LOL


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## Mo Earle (Mar 1, 2008)

I agree with Alegria _"Just because you use a prong does not mean you are correcting the dog_"- 
to all the other "successful, mental weirdo trainers out there that understand this...carry on!

- although I begin applying these collars at a very young age-I also believe in teaching first...before giving a "correction"... the collars can be used in a way to give" guidance..".

...some trainers like to use treats-I don't when they're stomachs are full- they still need to do what I ask...
some like to use clickers or other markers...some like to use ecollars, prongs, chokes, flat collars, ...as long as the dogs are not being abused or unfairly treated....
doesn't make them wrong, or right, better or worse trainers....just different. IMO


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

OK goofball, if you are walking your dog and you are using a pinch, you are not correcting the dog ? ? ? ? ? ?

Let me ask you this, why is your relationship so terrible that you have to use this type of collar and "prepare" for it's use ? ? ? ? 

This is the kind of training that drives me nuts, it's like setting up for failure. Well, I won't get anything else right, so I will just go out and get a pinch and an e-collar.

I have a pain in the ass 5 month old puppy, and I have no problems with walking her. Maybe someday I will need a pinch, or e-collar, but not for basic shit like walking on a leash. 

As far as putting a pinch collar on the dog so they get used to it, well, lets just say I would toss the dog that needed that into the dumpster.

God, bad training and PPD people. Where do I sign up ??????? AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: the collars can be used in a way to give" guidance..".


Not trying to slam, but WHO THE **** TAUGHT YOU THIS SHIT ??????????????

Seriously, give a name, because that is a really stupid statement. That is like when people cannot figure out a positive negative, and how it relates to the stupid pinch collar when the idiots use it in bitework, and then cannot figure out why the dog needs such a hard correction in OB..........or they just get all proud because the dog is "hard".


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

yeah, you know, I've gotta say, I've never used a pinch on a pup for walking. I use the fur saver doubled back so it's dead. To me, handling a rambunctious big puppy is just part and parcel of what you gotta go through with a pup - it's part of the fun! When I do introduce the pinch after about a year, I keep a seperate line on it and use the line on the fursaver to control and just use the line on the pinch to give him a little pop when I want his attention.


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

FWIW, susan that's exactly what i did w/Brix when he was 8-9 mo old, for going to fair and football games, i simply double-lined/collared him, worked the lines like double reins: the choke chain for normal stuff, a twitch on the prong for attention/correction. and a "twitch" is all i ever had to use. one finger, twitch, he attended to me, we went on. worked like a charm!

and Brix made a LOT of friends at football games, maybe not so many w/carnies (i wouldn't let them get friendly w/him). but the double-line, double-collar worked well for us.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Exactly! I just hold off a little longer than most. Recently there was a thread about obedience and grip sport dogs, something about should you or shouldn't you introduce ob before grip work. I wait, but not because I am worried about inhibiting the dog too much or anything like that. I just REALLY like the antics of crazy ass, high drive pups. I figure they are only young once, so I like to let puppies be puppies. I probably let them get away with a lot more than most, I am a little nuts that way, but they make me laugh. Of course, I am not dealing with a bunch of pups at once and I am retired, so I have the luxury of time that many don't have. The other reason is for me, it's easier to start serious training once they have matured a little. I'm not saying it's better or worse either way, this is just what works and is easiest for me.

P.S. I'm a Dogtra fan too.


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## Alegria Cebreco (Jul 25, 2007)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: Just because you use a prong does not mean you are correcting the dog.
> 
> What are you, mental ?? How do you figure ??? Seriously, use the search function and find out the correct definition of correction. LOL


_*I*_ am NOT correcting the dog. Its a safety issue to me, I rather have my dog self correct than have him run out in the street and get hit by a car or see a squirrel or something and dart at it. Like I said, I refuse to fight with my dog. And I will not struggle on a fursaver (that I double back too) having my dog gagging. Nor will I resort to a choke chain. Not once I have yanked the collar and dont intend to. I clearly stated in my previous post that I do use the prong as a band aid, until I am ready to start OB. Why make life difficult? The prong is a tool, nothing more. Prong does not equal correction by handler.

Like I said it comes down to what you want, and i would like to have a nice walk allowing my dog to sniff and explore without putting pressure on him or making him gag. That's how I do things, and thankfully us humans where given the right to choose. And that does not make me "mental" as I am entitled to my opinion and just because my view is different than yours does not make me wrong.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Howard III said;
" Bob how many tough dogs have you seen that might have needed a flat collar to get better training? I like the "canned" approach, one size fits all, one method for all dogs, and when all else fails with the little ones, prong the life out of them! RIGHT!=D>" 

I've seen a few "uncontrolable monsters" that have turned to nice working dogs once they realize they aren't going to have to fight the handler and the helper at the same time. 
Same with a few dogs that have came to us with the comments "Ya really gotta really put your thumb on this guy or you'll get bit". No doubt there are a few of those out there but, IMHO, most are the result of temperment issues or poor training. 
90% of training should be a leadership issue, not a control issue! 
AGAIN, my disclaimer. 
YES!!! There are many, many exceptionally well trained dogs out there that have been very well trained with the pinch, e-collar, etc when in the right hands. I just think the majority of "trainers" are controlling dogs, not training them. That's in bite work, AKC, UKC, whatever. JMHO!


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## Alegria Cebreco (Jul 25, 2007)

I openly admitted that I am just "controlling my dog". And stated I TRAIN off leash. All I have to say to my pup is "hey" and he stops but I already explained, a walk is a leisure activity, not training to me. I want him to walk and sniff every fire hydrant his little heart desires.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Alegria if you're training a pup to walk with you, how can you then saw you use the prong to "self correct?" I fully understand what you are saying, but re-read what Jeff and Bob have said. I put a prong on a 5 year old Giant Schnauzer and the second it was on, NO STUPID behavior. But that is a trained dog, we're talking puppy here.

Other point before my PB goes up, how can you correct what you haven't trained? If the puppy understands "Hey" and is an a$$ when you walk it, you haven't taught it a thing. Either the instruction is wrong or the instructor...name the pick. It can't be the puppy because it is the vessel that is taking the knowledge!

To my way of thinking, and Ive been wrong once in my life I think, you need to bond with the animal, to set the pack relationship and understanding of who and whose the puppy works for in that household. Prongs are a step before electric. How can you justify it if you are a skilled trainer? I think Jeff and Bob are throwing out the knowledge on this one. IMO.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I will openly admit that when on a leash and not under a command of some sort my dogs will drag my a$$ all over the place. That's because I rarely use a leash other then going from the car to the training field or to the vets. I don't take my dogs for walks on a leash.
My home training is on my front or side yard (corner house). My neighbors can't understand how my dogs ignore dog walkers, bicycles, kids, bunnies, squirrels, etc when I'm training or just doing yard work. That's all developed as puppies with imprinting. I make myself more interesting then the distractions. 
One point of control I do put on my JRT Pete at the vets is when his teeth are examined. I place MY finger in Pete's mouth while the vet checks it out. He wouldn't dare close it then.........although I think the little bassid would really like to. :-o :grin:


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## Alegria Cebreco (Jul 25, 2007)

Howard, again I HAVE NOT TRAINED THE HEEL. Nor am I putting forth that impression. I dont WANT to give my dog a command. I could care less if he wants to walk in front of me, or sniff a mailbox, but I dont want to get dragged down. I dont WANT to put control over my dog on a LEISURELY walk. He gets to have freedom and at the same time I dont get dragged down the street. 

And why am I getting called out, when almost everyone else in this thread use prongs as well. But I was honest saying I use it as a crutch until I start OB.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I personelly don't have a problem if people use a prong for either training or just to control the dog on walks. I haven't used one for over 5 yrs but would have no problem doing so if I thought it was needed. 
That's just a choice, nothing more!
I think some of this discussion came down to the usual semantics that are always found in dog training discussions. 
Do what works for you!


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## Alegria Cebreco (Jul 25, 2007)

Bob, I would have to agree with you!!! I'll be honest, is the prong necessary? No, but I dont have the patience to stop everytime he pulls or tunr the other way, or walk for a mile with treats in my hands. I'm a very impatient person, and I would probably cause more stress to my dog if I took the other routes. It keeps me calm, and keeps him relaxed. And we are both able to enjoy our exercise.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Prong, no prong, food reward, however it's done...each person has THEIR own way of doing. Called out?? Just folks expressing opinions, nothing more. The fun part of being on a forum. There is a right place for self corection and a wrong place. For bite work, I would never use it and let the decoy take the whooping. In tracking it is okay to a point. With a young puppy it is fine too. It all boils down to what you want and what you are training for.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: And that does not make me "mental" as I am entitled to my opinion and just because my view is different than yours does not make me wrong.

Uhhhh, yeah, it does. 

As far as getting "called out" thats what more experienced people do to people with little to no experience. That is why you joined the forum, to learn. To learn, you first have to recognize that most of us did the same stupid shit you are doing right now, and have found that it is counterproductive in the long run, and if we are willing to tell you this for free, then maybe you should stop being so sensitive, and listen.

Self correction is still YOU CORRECTING YOUR DOG. How hard is that to get ? ? ? :lol: 

I would still like to hear about the "guiding".


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## Alegria Cebreco (Jul 25, 2007)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: And that does not make me "mental" as I am entitled to my opinion and just because my view is different than yours does not make me wrong.
> 
> Uhhhh, yeah, it does.
> 
> ...


So if I tether my dog up, and lets say a squirrell runs by and he lunges out causing him to flip (causing more pain than a prong does), I'm still correcting him?? Or is the tree correcting him? There is no way he SELF corrected? 

I'm not going to argue, I was honest unlike many people (cause if anyone tells you there is a reason for a prong other than a crutch for training they are WRONG, and how many people said they use a prong??!!). I am NOT wrong, sorry. I do what works for me. Advice can be taken and appreciated but everyone has to learn from their own experience. This is the way thats working for me right now. Maybe when I gain more "experience" my view will change.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Alegria Cebreco said:


> Just because you use a prong does not mean you are correcting the dog.


Well, yes, it does. However, that doesn't mean that Jeff's "reply" is in any way appropriate.


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## Jeannie Helton (Aug 10, 2008)

Alegria Cebreco said:


> Just because you use a prong does not mean you are correcting the dog.


You are absolutely correct!!!! If your dog is pulling on the prong collar, whether it be just pulling you to check things out, or the ever-popular "self-correction" ... if you have not actually trained your dog to do what you are asking (walk on a loose leash,) then no, you are not correcting the dog. _You are nagging on the dog and basically being unfair to the dog._ IMO

Part of the fun of owning a sport dog puppy is the roudy "LET'S GO" attitude they have that you later shape into their training regimine for some exciting work. If you keep nagging on your dog, you either break down the ever-important communication that you need to develop with your dog, or far worse, you squash your dog's drive. The second part is harder to repair than the first. 

again...all my opinion and nothing more. :smile:


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## Alegria Cebreco (Jul 25, 2007)

Jeannie Helton said:


> You are absolutely correct!!!! If your dog is pulling on the prong collar, whether it be just pulling you to check things out, or the ever-popular "self-correction" ... if you have not actually trained your dog to do what you are asking (walk on a loose leash,) then no, you are not correcting the dog. _You are nagging on the dog and basically being unfair to the dog._ IMO
> 
> Part of the fun of owning a sport dog puppy is the roudy "LET'S GO" attitude they have that you later shape into their training regimine for some exciting work. If you keep nagging on your dog, you either break down the ever-important communication that you need to develop with your dog, or far worse, you squash your dog's drive. The second part is harder to repair than the first.
> 
> again...all my opinion and nothing more. :smile:



LOL, I DID NOT TRAIN THE HEEL YET!!!! Is that statement so hard to comprehend?? So would it be better to have his gagging on a flat collar, or yanking him with the infamous choke chain. 

All I have to say is easy and he stops, and I'm NOT going to set my dog up to fail but making him walk miles to a command that he barely knows because I havent taught it to him YET. 

Good Lord, I see what happens when your honest. :roll:


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Alegria Cebreco said:


> Good Lord, I see what happens when your honest. :roll:


Well, one thing that happens, whether you are honest or not, is that some posters are genetically programmed to reply abrasively. #-o 

But another thing is that lots of valuable discussion sometimes ensues. ;-)


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Honestly, I bought this from Jeff :lol: 

Of course I'm joking he just sold me the plans to build it.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3028/2823656188_f1e913c5de.jpg?v=0


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## Mo Earle (Mar 1, 2008)

> I would still like to hear about the "guiding".


No,:-$ can't do it, because no matter how I explain what I am doing, and in my opinion.."guiding" my dog, not correcting...Jeff is going to cause his blood pressure to sky rocket and yell at me#-o..and he'll have to use more of the * * expressions...Oso I will just accept his being "mental compliment",:-o and know he doesn't like my way of training....:razz: :razz: but he always makes the posts fun reading.....IMO Mo


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Mo Earle said:


> No,:-$ can't do it, because no matter how I explain what I am doing, and in my opinion.."guiding" my dog, not correcting...Jeff is going to cause his blood pressure to sky rocket and yell at me#-o..and he'll have to use more of the * * expressions...Oso I will just accept his being "mental compliment",:-o and know he doesn't like my way of training....:razz: :razz: but he always makes the posts fun reading.....IMO Mo


OH MO, what are you doing??? Guiding is correcting because you are changing the course of the animal. =;


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## liz shulman (Aug 28, 2008)

Howard Gaines III said:


> OH MO, what are you doing??? Guiding is correcting because you are changing the course of the animal. =;


If I hold a liver treat in front of my dog's nose and move it so that the dog follows, I am guiding the dog and changing his course, but I am not correcting. :roll:


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

liz shulman said:


> If I hold a liver treat in front of my dog's nose and move it so that the dog follows, I am guiding the dog and changing his course, but I am not correcting. :roll:


Or you could be rewarding with "wait time" or feeding and afraid of having your fingers snapped! Silly YOU!


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: Maybe when I gain more "experience" my view will change.


Uhhhh, yeah, that was the point I am making. Another view that will change if you ever get out of the retard stage with working dogs is the "taking a dog for a walk" .

You don't have to listen to anything I say, or anything that anyone says. Just remember that most of the advice given here is just regurgitated, and not very often actual experience. 

So again, IF YOU THE OWNER PUTS A PRONG COLLAR AND A LEASH ON A DOG, THEN YES MOE, YOU ARE CORRECTING THE DOG.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: 
Quote:
I would still like to hear about the "guiding". 
No,







can't do it, because no matter how I explain what I am doing, and in my opinion.."guiding" my dog, not correcting...Jeff is going to cause his blood pressure to sky rocket and yell at me







..and he'll have to use more of the * * expressions...







so I will just accept his being "mental compliment",







and know he doesn't like my way of training....














but he always makes the posts fun reading.....IMO Mo


Talk about personality misread. If you think any of you cause my blood pressure to rise you seriously do not know me at all. I am usually laughing at how dumb some of the "answers" to problems are. Besides, you know good and well your "guiding" shit will just be more cannon fodder in this discussion for me. I am amazed at the simple answers that are escaping you prong people in response to my "blood pressure" fits.


So, HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

"Most of the advise given here is just regurgitated, and not very often actual experience". (Jeff)

Speak for yourself, buddy! I think that may be true on various other forums, but I really doubt it on this one. Most people here are experienced, this is not their first time at the rodeo, either in sport or real world training. Anyway, you can usually tell when people are "regurgitating" because they all repeat the same thing pretty much word for word, and I don't see too much of that on this board.


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## Al Curbow (Mar 27, 2006)

I never heard of a prong on a 7 or 8 wk old puppy! Holy crap.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Al Curbow said:


> I never heard of a prong on a 7 or 8 wk old puppy! Holy crap.


me neither Al, me neither.


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## Al Curbow (Mar 27, 2006)

Doesn't it make you feel sorry for the puppies that end up in these homes though?


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

I just can't figure the purpose of a pinch on a pup. There is no reason to get a pup acclimated to wearing a pinch, and you sure shouldn't be actually using one on a young pup. I don't get it. :-?


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## Alegria Cebreco (Jul 25, 2007)

Jeff, I will not argue with you. Its rediculous and childish if you ask me. Calling someone a "retard" will not gain you any respect at least not by me...:-o


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: Jeff, I will not argue with you. Its rediculous and childish if you ask me. Calling someone a "retard" will not gain you any respect at least not by me...









Sorry dude, but really, like I give a **** about your opinion of me. LOL If I said it to you in person you would be laughing with me.......unless your really a tard. never thought of that. I figured you could type and all.....


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: Speak for yourself, buddy! I think that may be true on various other forums, but I really doubt it on this one.

Uhhhhh, from the answers given and asked ? ? ? ? seriously now.


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

C'mon now kids, play nice. Nobody's a retard without a doctors note.

Prong on an 8 week puppy? We've all seen it. I believe those guys don't post here anymore, since their dogs fell off the scaffolding. Who knew.. dogs and mountain goats are not the same thing afterall.

Guiding with a prong is still correcting. It is giving the dog a picture of "do what I am supposed to do or discomfort ensues," worse yet, not only that, but discomfort is part of the learning process for the dog because he doesn't know what you're guiding him to do yet.

Self correcting is just semantics. It doesn't matter where the correction comes from, the correction is present. Whether my arm moves or not isn't really relevant. And if the dog thinks a tree is correcting him and gets scared of the tree then go figure out that problem  Or if the dog is a real nervebag he'll try and get away from the tree and self correct himself again until he craps all over the place


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Maybe that is why dog people here are so sensitive, they have super self correcting dogs LOL


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Mike Schoonbrood said:


> Prong on an 8 week puppy? We've all seen it. I believe those guys don't post here anymore, since their dogs fell off the scaffolding. Who knew.. dogs and mountain goats are not the same thing afterall.


Oh yeah, I remember those umm errrr discussions.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Al Curbow said:


> Doesn't it make you feel sorry for the puppies that end up in these homes though?


Yes. So does the whole idea of "corrections" for something that has not yet been trained. 

I don't even particularly mean this thread.


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## Alegria Cebreco (Jul 25, 2007)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Sorry dude, but really, like I give a **** about your opinion of me. LOL If I said it to you in person you would be laughing with me.......unless your really a tard. never thought of that. I figured you could type and all.....


No you really shouldnt give a damn about my opinion but you should care enough about yourself not to be a complete immature ass...yeah I probably would have laughed along with you, but over the internet the context of which that statement was made was missed...


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

What is it with people and Pit mixes? I got another phone call the other day from a girl with a Pit/Lab mix. At four months of age, she wants to do obedience and use a prong collar. When asked her goal for this thing, she replied, "I want a strong personal protection dog." =; 

Of the well bred Pit Bull Terriers I've seen, the vast majority have been very people friendly and dog aggressive or "interested." If you add the Lab to the mix, friendly is as friendly does...I don't see this as a strong PPD in my book. I know there are always examples the other way. How hard can a four month old be?


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

It's funny you mention that, Howard. I've never said anything because it's not like I am a very knowledgable person when it comes to Pits, but I have also noticed that the Pits I do know are very good with people. I have known a few in schutzhund and they have all been very friendly and stable with people.

As far as PPDs go, I know nothing about PPDs so I'm not saying they don't make excellent PPDs. I'm just talking about what I wonder is perhaps an unfair reputation as a dangerous dog breed, based on my limited and anectdotal experience.

Sorry for veering off topic, back to your regularly scheduled program.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Pits are mixes - no less - no more.

That they are human friendly comes from the fact that they are put into the "pit" to fight with other dogs and must be taken out by their handlers. They could, at the worst be dog aggressive. Trouble is, they can't be controlled by the FCI or whatever as they are not a "breed". I hate the fact that they should be forbidden - we should eliminate the handlers. If we eliminate pit bulls from a country, the next breed can be on the way to replace them.

My first experience of dog vs child fight was with a darling little Cocker Spaniel in Kindergaren:-({|= These dogs look sooooo beautiful when they are pups but they are not "first time owner" dogs in my opinion. 

Actually, why should a dog be family friendly? It's up to the family to train the kids to accept that the pup is an animal in the first place. 

Mich kotzt es an!!!! no translation


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## Guest (Sep 5, 2008)

> Mich kotzt es an!!!!


What's this about puking?


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Steven,

Puking is an automatic reaction to some of the posts here - thank you for the translation but feel free to puke at my "Ergüsse" Gotcha oder nicht??

Gill


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Gillian all dogs are mixes. The Pit Bull Terrier is one that the fools have and abuse the hell out of them. I think public whippings for any form of dog fighting should take place. Then let the dog piss on the owner and allow the salt to work the wound! JMO, humble as it may be!!!


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Howard,

The pit bulls can't be controlled under the rules of the FCI. That's why banning the"Pit Bull" *breed* is ludicrous.....

As for pissing on the owner - off topic - but a friend of mine in the club bought his first Rottweiler - great dog but not "sharp" enough for Edgar. Edgar does "Sendaway", Clay goes, fairly slowly, comes back, Edgar swears, sends him off again, Clay goes, comes back to him and pisses all over the top of Edgar's rubber boots.

Gill RAOFL - loses friend!!!


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## Anna Kasho (Jan 16, 2008)

Howard Gaines III said:


> What is it with people and Pit mixes? I got another phone call the other day from a girl with a Pit/Lab mix. At four months of age, she wants to do obedience and use a prong collar. When asked her goal for this thing, she replied, "I want a strong personal protection dog." =;
> 
> Of the well bred Pit Bull Terriers I've seen, the vast majority have been very people friendly and dog aggressive or "interested." If you add the Lab to the mix, friendly is as friendly does...I don't see this as a strong PPD in my book. I know there are always examples the other way. How hard can a four month old be?


Heh. My first dog ever was a pit/lab mix. Her first owners wanted to have her PTS after she nearly killed their other dog. She was a "liability dog" and aggressive, defensive, although never actually trained for protection or anything like that. Whenever she was watching a person or another dog, when she'd get alert (precursor to aggressing) she'd get this little wrinkle in her forehead. At that point, a little pop with a chokechain and an OB command would snap her out of it right away.

The only time I fitted a prong on her, she immediately wrinkled up and stayed that way. I never tried it again...


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

Mike Schoonbrood said:


> Guiding with a prong is still correcting. It is giving the dog a picture of "do what I am supposed to do or discomfort ensues," worse yet, not only that, but discomfort is part of the learning process for the dog because he doesn't know what you're guiding him to do yet.
> 
> Self correcting is just semantics. It doesn't matter where the correction comes from, the correction is present. Whether my arm moves or not isn't really relevant. And if the dog thinks a tree is correcting him and gets scared of the tree then go figure out that problem  Or if the dog is a real nervebag he'll try and get away from the tree and self correct himself again until he craps all over the place


mike-- you are, as usual (d**m it) exactly correct: when "socializing" Brix with 2 lines on him, and using the prong line only as an "attention-getting" device in a distraction-heavy environment, it worked just fine. 

so now we get into "semantics" (my favorite ).

it could be argued (and i wouldn't disagree) that a twitch on the prong line to re-direct his attention to "Boss-Mom" is indeed a correction. because he "forgot" that i was "god". and, as a young guy (9 mo) he didn't know "what" i was "guiding" him to at that point. BUT, at that point it didn't MATTER "what" i was guiding him to--what mattered was that he learned to check with me before he focussed on something else.

oh--and i would really feel for a dog who was traumatized by a "self-correcting tree"--what would he pee on in the woods??


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## Alegria Cebreco (Jul 25, 2007)

ann freier said:


> oh--and i would really feel for a dog who was traumatized by a "self-correcting tree"--what would he pee on in the woods??


Are they allowed to pee, Jeff?? Or is that detrimemtal to their training too?? :-k


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Heres to the dipshits that have never competed trying to question basic things. =D> =D> =D> 

Quote: it could be argued (and i wouldn't disagree) that a twitch on the prong line to re-direct his attention to "Boss-Mom" is indeed a correction. because he "forgot" that i was "god". and, as a young guy (9 mo) he didn't know "what" i was "guiding" him to at that point.

Wait till you have to do off leash stuff and he figures out you cannot "guide" him. You have never been ignored until you have been ignored by a dog that is sick of your bullshit guideing. Wait till the prong has been desensitized to the point that you just about have to flip the dog to make a correction that he recognizes.......... *** personal attack mod deleted ***


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Wait till the prong has been desensitized to the point that you just about have to flip the dog to make a correction that he recognizes.


That one hit pretty close to home, actually a direct hit. I'm going to go get RETARD put on my hat now.


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Nah, that just means you are one of only 10% with a real dog Gerry[-X\\/


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

I showed Tiko a prong collar today for the first time. He took it in his mouth and ran off with it :roll:


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

No Lee, he's been conditioned to it somewhat.


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## Mo Earle (Mar 1, 2008)

_



Heres to the dipshits that have never competed trying to question basic things. =D> =D> =D> 

Quote: it could be argued (and i wouldn't disagree) that a twitch on the prong line to re-direct his attention to "Boss-Mom" is indeed a correction. because he "forgot" that i was "god". and, as a young guy (9 mo) he didn't know "what" i was "guiding" him to at that point.

Wait till you have to do off leash stuff and he figures out you cannot "guide" him. You have never been ignored until you have been ignored by a dog that is sick of your bullshit guideing. Wait till the prong has been desensitized to the point that you just about have to flip the dog to make a correction that he recognizes... *** personal attack mod deleted ***

Click to expand...

_
 
It seems, with these kind of responses, This subject is getting a little out of hand - and this post, actually looks like it would fit very well on other forums. I can't be considered a "dipshit" I guess, because I do compete, but I am one of them that was referred to as "mental" or "retard" etc as ... I am also one of those people that choose to use a prong, I also use an e-collar, and I know those who prefer to give treats or click etc, don't like these methods. I can only assure you I do not abuse my dogs and I DO compete-even though my dogs have been trained with these methods.

....I have competed my dogs-Chico in PSA, NVBK, Hugo- FR Brevet, ASR EL,L1, - APPDA EL,L1, NVBK, K9prosports...Tango FR Brevet, ASR EL,1 and 2, K9Prosports, APPDA EL, Tora- ASR EL....the point being - I do compete my dogs, off leash of course, and I do use the prong in training. I have placed the prong on young pups -if you don't know how it is used without giving them a correction-no need to criticize it, I can assure you these pups are not abused, hurt, injured....etc I can also assure you, when I am using a prong on a pup, it is so he gets used to having the collar on, and when I say guiding- you can put a steady smooth tension on the collar to "guide" the dog into positon,(for ex.teaching positons, or guiding them up the A-frame) as you could with a flat collar, without a Snap, pop,twitch, yank...correction....I would never use it to be harsh with a pup, or an adult dog for that matter- it IS another tool in my training box, and yes, some pups are a little hard headed than others-but we are still in "teaching" mode, not correction. 


Finally- we should be discussing the subject, even though we disagree, you don't really have to be slamming with the name calling- it may not be your style,and you may hate that others train this way and maybe you don't have to learn new techniques maybe you are an expert- but some of us are open to hearing others opinions and learning things,no matter how long we have been dealing, and working with dogs and some of us even open to taking constructive criticism..but calling someone a "dipshit" because they don't compete, or other names because they don't train to your standards...it would seem to me you are on the wrong forum! Because up to this point, this forum has been able to keep above the rest.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Mo off topic, how's the weather down there. We got slapped Saturday with 1 1/2" of rain and training this morning. Keeping the conversation "wet."  [-X


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

QUOTE Wait till you have to do off leash stuff and he figures out you cannot "guide" him. You have never been ignored until you have been ignored by a dog that is sick of your bullshit guideing. Wait till the prong has been desensitized to the point that you just about have to flip the dog to make a correction that he recognizes.......... *** same mod edit of quoted text as original text *** .UNQUOTE

My post is not addressed to anyone in particular, but the above is pretty damn close to reality.

All the tools were not made to just keep the dog always in check or to take the stress out of walkies. There are so many things you can do to make sure the pup remembers you are calling the shots. Most people put the dog on the lead until they get to the woods, fields, etc. and then let it off. No wonder it pulls like a steam train to get there.

Not only in bitework, there are dogs that often don't notice that they're on the prong - there's no need to de-sensitize them. 

First prong, then e-collar and then what??


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

The methods and tools are less important then the user's ability to underestand what makes the dog tick!


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Mo Earle said:


> ... I am also one of those people that choose to use a prong, I also use an e-collar, and I know those who prefer to give treats or click etc, don't like these methods. ....


I am not speaking for anyone else, but my opinion is that marker training does not prohibit corrections.  Marker training is a way to teach a behavior. Corrections, if needed, are a later stage in the process.

Corrections given without having taught the command or behavior, though -- for me, that takes the "correction" out of the "correction" definition. I think that much of the thread has had that theme of foundation work coming before any kind of correction.....


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Mo Earle said:


> .... even though we disagree, you don't really have to be slamming with the name calling- it may not be your style,and you may hate that others train this way and maybe you don't have to learn new techniques maybe you are an expert- but some of us are open to hearing others opinions and learning things,no matter how long we have been dealing, and working with dogs and some of us even open to taking constructive criticism..but calling someone a "dipshit" because they don't compete, or other names because they don't train to your standards...it would seem to me you are on the wrong forum!... .


Agreed. 100%.

If the mods see it, they will edit out personal attacks.

*I *certainly will. Unfortunately, I can't read every posts as it happens. I do work right near the computer for several hours every day, though, and I do see PMs very promptly. I'd much rather edit out posts with gratuitous attacks than to have to read the flame wars that sometimes result.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

With me it's not about liking or disliking a certain method. It's about choice. I've probably used just about any method you can think of including a few I probably wouldn't admit to today.
I would have no problem using a pinch, e-collar, physical correction if I felt it was necessary. I just haven't found that in a while now. 
That's just my choice! Not a condemnation of another's choices of training method. 
My only criticism of ANY training method, even food, treat, etc, is the insistance of to many people that the other's way doesn't work .


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## Mo Earle (Mar 1, 2008)

off the subject...Howard we finally saw some sun today..actually a lot, but it was hot and HUMID for training..we got a lot of rain from Hanna..but our weatherman said we weren't supposed to:-o...our field is still under water from Fay- so we have been going to our second club field in town-can't stop training-due to a lot of water!! and it looks like Hurricane Ike is a gutterball on the" Florida pennisula bowling alley".... so far it looks like a miss for us!!! -but is aiming for someone in the gulf...:-(as long as it doesn't do an about face-maybe we can start drying out !

Back to the forum- you moderator's do an awesome job, and I am glad I am able to be part of it. because of all of the forums, this is my favorite and it is a GREAT forum... thanks!! Mo


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Heres to the dipshits that have never competed trying to question basic things. =D> =D> =D>
> 
> Quote: it could be argued (and i wouldn't disagree) that a twitch on the prong line to re-direct his attention to "Boss-Mom" is indeed a correction. because he "forgot" that i was "god". and, as a young guy (9 mo) he didn't know "what" i was "guiding" him to at that point.
> 
> Wait till you have to do off leash stuff and he figures out you cannot "guide" him. You have never been ignored until you have been ignored by a dog that is sick of your bullshit guideing. Wait till the prong has been desensitized to the point that you just about have to flip the dog to make a correction that he recognizes.......... *** personal attack mod deleted ***


 
well, here's MY bottom line: 1) my experiment in working 2 lines with a young dog is moot at this point, as the dog has gone missing. anyone wants to chew my butt for that, feel free--i've already been there in my own mind. and worse than anyone here can call me out on it. 2) i've found that (surprise) a dog doesn't know how long the line on them is--can we say "Koehler" here? and i figured THAT out before i ever even heard of bill k. 3) jeff, i'm a "dipshit" in that i have always had rescue/shelter dogs in the past; i've never had a desire to compete in dogsports. however, i have always required my dogs to behave and at the least, exhibit basic OB. 

and finally, what's so different in "de-sensitizing" a dog to the prong vs the e-collar? the dog figures out that you can't "stim" him when he doesn't have it on?? remember--i'm talking about a YOUNG dog in my "training" scenario.

and truly--if you can give me ANY training advice that's better than what i learn from trial and error-i'll take it.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Ok [ ] obviously all you could really post to was the dipshit thing, and obviously, I was calling you a dipshit as I was being restrained from further harming you........or maybe not. If that is all that it takes to get you to go into coniptions, I guess that would explain all the super low level titles as well, as I said before, none of you are getting anywhere, and then you want to argue with me about how your training method is just rocking the brevet..............really ??? really ? ? ? ? How about a score to that bad boy ???????

Quote: -if you don't know how it is used without giving them a correction-no need to criticize it, I can assure you these pups are not abused, hurt, injured....etc I can also assure you, when I am using a prong on a pup, it is so he gets used to having the collar on, and when I say guiding- you can put a steady smooth tension on the collar to "guide" the dog into positon,(for ex.teaching positons, or guiding them up the A-frame) as you could with a flat collar, without a Snap, pop,twitch, yank...correction....I would never use it to be harsh with a pup, or an adult dog for that matter- it IS another tool in my training box, and yes, some pups are a little hard headed than others-but we are still in "teaching" mode, not correction. 

If you have to guide a pup up the A frame, that might explain a few things. I also think that heavy handed training that needs a pinch to "guide" a puppy is absolutely dipshit training. You have to remember there are what, 500 to a thousand people reading this forum, and you think that I am going to leave something as worthless as guiding up an A-frame with a pinch alone ? ? ? ? If your puppy needs steady, smooth tension to go up the A-frame, he needs the steady, smooth application of the green needle.

I can imagine having pups that are a little hard headed, as they are struggling to get that stupid collar off their neck.

I think [people who "correct" without a foundation] are abusing dogs, and THAT is why I post. Don't even try and say that you are not correcting dogs hard. All because you were not taught how to put a foundation on a puppy, and Butch Cappell told you you could put a pinch on a puppy. Ever thought that they were a bit hard headed cause that pinch on their neck sucked and they had no idea what you wanted ? ? ? Pain causes "hard headed" hate to tell you.

So until [those people] stop the abuse, the dipshit stands. I know the end result of how [they] train, and [they] cannot, nor will not try and say otherwise, as [they] know I am right.

[I CALL IT] ABUSING DOGS.


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## Mo Earle (Mar 1, 2008)

[QUOTE_]"I guess that would explain all the super low level titles as well, as I said before, none of you are getting anywhere, and then you want to argue with me about how your training method is just rocking the brevet..............really ??? really ? ? ? ? How about a score to that bad boy ??????_[/quote]"

the score for my Brevets- Hugo de Bonilla- was an 88.5 first time out, for Tango de la Valle de Goliath- was an 85.0 first time out- you can google the rest of my "low level titles"- 

want a share a few of your high level titles?

next: _



Butch Cappell told you you could put a pinch on a puppy[/QUOT

Click to expand...

_


> E]. Have to say, Butch did not tell me to put a pinch on a puppy- but I have participated in K9 prosports in the past, and would do again in the future.
> 
> You are entitled to your opinion- I actually enjoy reading them, how many forums are you on by the way...lots I know.....I can only tell you, I do not and am not abusive, harsh, heavy handed to my pups or my adult dogs as a matter of fact- so believe what you like- train how you like, and maybe one day we will cross paths when I am going for yet another "low level" title in your opinion.
> ....Mo:smile:


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

jeff--i'm really not quite sure who you are responding to; it seems you're responding in part to me and my 2-line 9 mo old training and then to Mo's response also. 

funny in a way, b/c you say "someone" (not clear) is having a conitption fit.... 

i guess i'm exempt due to the fact that i don't go for any level of titles. YEAH!!!!


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

QUOTE: the score for my Brevets- Hugo de Bonilla- was an 88.5 first time out, for Tango de la Valle de Goliath- was an 85.0 first time out- you can google the rest of my "low level titles"- 

want a share a few of your high level titles?


I had quite a few Sch 3's back in the day, although at this point in life I do not look at them as high level titles, as I look at the sport as pretty much a joke. Kind of like trialing a Mal in the sport........

What was the reason for not continueing on????????


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## Mo Earle (Mar 1, 2008)

_"the score for my Brevets- Hugo de Bonilla- was an 88.5 first time out, for Tango de la Valle de Goliath- was an 85.0 first time out- you can google the rest of my "low level titles"- 

*want a share a few of your high level titles? no high levels- Hugo FR-brevet, did dog in white FR 1, Nvbk, K9prosport, ASR 1 and APPDA 1...Chico PSA 1 and Tora ASR EL, Tango FR Brevet -and he was handled by Keith in ASR 1,2, APDDA EL, and in K9pro sport he did the entire program.( I can get you the scores, but I am sure no one is really interested) 
*

*I had quite a few Sch 3's back in the day, although at this point in life I do not look at them as high level titles, as I look at the sport as pretty much a joke. Kind of like trialing a Mal in the sport........
**I don't know enough about Sch. to comment, but went to a Sch. 3 event? at the POLO club in Fla, and let's say after watching, was not interested enough to try it. 

Why don't you trial your Mal?...especially if you already know the program and what is expected...now you have a Ferrari...instead of a mercedes...go for it!!  * 

 *What was the reason for not continueing on???????? hmmmm......I guess .....like a jack of all trades, master of none-- maybe in some eyes- I am trying to learn as much as I can. I have always enjoyed obedience, I like teaching dogs to do drug searches....agility stuff....I like getting into the bite suit when I can, as far as the sport venues....ASR- was great, but at this point is on Hiatus, APPDA -no comment.... . French Ring- I love, I just don't know if Hugo is really good enough to do the entire program- I had been told by some of the Ringers, Hugo wants to fight for real, ??? which causes him a problem in the program...I have been working his jumps,his guards, his basket, his OUTs, ... and would really like to try him again in FR- but ?? There hasn't been any more PSA or K9 prosport or NVBK stuff going on around here...
Tora- she is good, very good when she wants to be, but gets distracted with puppies, or toys...and Chico I have retired- except for "fun bites" on our field....anyway... So that is some of the reason I have not continued...but I train every day I am not at work. (I have 11 total, that keep me busy)...and to keep it on subject...and not just about myself and my dogs....all are trained with ecollars and prongs or flat collars, or fur savers...or none...depends on what I am doing at the time....Mo
*_


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote : *Why don't you trial your Mal?...especially if you already know the program and what is expected...now you have a Ferrari...instead of a mercedes...go for it!! *


Are you asking me if I am going to trial Buko in Sch ? ? ? THe answer would be OH **** NO. I am planning on trialing in Colorado for my two, and then in New Mexico for my two.....or if he doesn't show his ass, then my three. If he just completely shows his ass, there is a trial here, and then I think that there is a trial in Hutto in January.

I am not sure what to expect, as I know he can do real well. I think the first two trials may be the last ones he totally loses it at some point......but who knows.

I know that if he goes out and does what he normally (now) does, I will have my three this year.


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## Ann Putegnat (Mar 11, 2008)

Good luck! I hope he does. The three is such an elusive title! Go Buko!
Ann


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