# I just dont get it



## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

This might have been beating to death, but I got to ask. Please straighten me out as you feel. Some of you use the ball/ kong/ rag as a reward to help build that crazy crack head ball drive that many love so much in their dog. My father has one of these dogs, I’m almost embarrassed for the dog, he looks like he is on coke. Because you are scored and it is what the judges want (I think) in the event I can understand that for sch.… 
Hang in there I think I’m getting to the question(s). 
But, if you raise your dog with limited petting especially outside of your house, And the dog does what is asked of him, he will do it for as long as it takes and is not distracted from his job. And all the dog wants in return for a job well done such as finding the dope, is to hear “good find the dope” and get scratched on his head. 
(Finally first question) What is the benefit from making the dog look like a shaking crack head for a real job? Why would you want to carry a ball around all the time? To me it seems as if the dog is not working to actually complete a job, but is just a stupid dog being tricked into something to play with a ball. 
My dog is building great track record for finding the dope and when asked is excited as hell but not a crack head. He and my wife have trained with several police/ sheriff departments and the dog is always very successful, granted it is all been in controlled training situations. But a lot of the cops/ people want to see a whole dance and towel show afterwards. I don’t get why? My only conclusion is that the cops/ people feel better about themselves when they think there dog is in some crazy happy ass drive. I think it’s gotten to the point where people would rather there dog be less successful but look crazy doing it. 
The facility (no names let’s not even get into it) where my dog received his imprinting and basic training I was taught to approach things with at a pace that could be maintained all day or longer with minimal breaks for the dog. 
Is it harder or does it take more skill/time to get a dog to work for the sake of being told “good _fill in the blank_”? Wouldn’t you rather a dog that does his job to please his owner rather than getting to play with a ball? Wouldn’t this build a better bond between dog and owner? 
I really don’t know the exact question I am trying to get across but maybe someone here can figure out what I am trying to ask.
 I know most of you are going to roll your eyes at this and continue playing with your balls, I am not against it, whatever gets the job done but I just don’t understand why.
If you take a dog that could have been taught that crack head ball drive but it was never really taught or bought out during the dogs training (but he still has it in him, or does he?) is he less likely to be successful at what is asked of him? 
If a tree falls in the woods does it make a sound?


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## Al Curbow (Mar 27, 2006)

Drive is drive. If your dog has it he has it, you can't "make" a dog have drive. A dog with drive to get his toy is 10 bazillion times easier to train, it's more fun for the dog and the handler too, less compulsion needed, faster, etc. I feel sorry for dogs with no drive, they tend to get their asses kicked i think. I want my pup to be motivated to do what i ask, you use affection, another person uses food, another a tug, another a ball, they're all just rewards.

Petting is down the list as a reward for my dogs, My female - #1 food, 2 affection , 3 ball, My oldest male #1 ball, 2 ball and 3 the ball (hates to be petted too, lol), puppy #1 tug, 2 food, 3 ball. My point is, whatever is in the dog is just there. Guys at work will play keep away with my oldest, hell run till his tounge is a foot long, they'll finally give him the ball and he'll go drop it at one of their feet and stare at it till they pick it up and start screwing with him again, go figure. Don't be embarrassed for him, he LOVES it,


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Chris - 
I can't give answers as far as narc/bomb detection dogs go, but as a detection dog trainer for disaster search and rescue, I need my dogs to be in a heightened state of prey/hunt drive in order to work independently of me for a long duration. This will not occur if the dog is working solely in "social interaction" or pack drive, or whatever you want to call it when your dog is working just for praise. My dog must bypass an incredible level of distraction (food, animals, human remains, loud noises, other rescuers, etc.) in order to find what we are looking for, which is a trapped, live human being. He must do this without me being right behind him to tell him to ignore these distractions. Working in prey/hunt drive is the only way for my dog to accomplish this. My dogs can work in this drive for very long durations, just like wild dogs and wolves can work in prey/hunt drive to track and chase their food. Wolves can be kicked and bitten by their prey, yet they still pursue it because they are in prey drive.

This is where choosing a dog who is addicted to playing tug with his ball/rag/toy (or has high prey drive) comes in. Associating the act of finding with the game of tugging satisfies his drive, which is what motivates him to pursue his "quarry" - in my case, trapped humans. I am not "tricking" my dog at all. He simply knows what he must do in order to satisfy his drive. There's no trickery involved. 

I have worked with a few SAR people who claim their dogs work just for praise. My opinion on these dogs was that they were easily distracted and too dependent on their handlers for direction. I question whether some of them were "working" for the entire duration of the search at all. Perhaps there are exceptions to the rule, but I have yet to see one.

Question:
Let's just say that it's payday at work. Your boss comes into your office and says, "Gee, Chris, I've been thinking about this whole paycheck thing and it just doesn't work for me. From now on, I'm just gonna tell you what a hell of a job you've been doing each week. Gold star for you this week, buddy!" 

How long would _you_ continue to work for this guy??? :wink:


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Drive is drive? I guess that is one of my questions. My dog will willingly do drug searches all day long and seem to be enjoying the challenge of the work. Looks forward to doing it, Likes getting in the truck and jumps out knowing what he is expected to do when he sees what going on. But is not a spas, I have never had a problem with him not searching or doing what was asked within reason. Now, where he came from did not work for that crazy crack head ball drive. Several times the dog and I did play with a rag after a find and I did notice he started to get a little more crack head like. So I wonder how much of that crazy looking drive is taught, and if it really improves success of a find? I wonder if my dog was trained/ taught that crazy drive from a pup if he would be like that. The training facility he came from certainly had what I would consider high drive dogs that would go all day but still did not have that sch look, I don’t think they wanted that look. Is that the genetics of the training or both? Is it good or bad? I believe like anything else as long as the job gets done successfully – does it really matter? 
 As I said in the past I have only been goofing around with this type of dog stuff for a short amount of time. I am starting to think that there is no science to it, just an art with different results.


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Chris,

Say you are burried in an avalanche. You have about 15 minutes until you are dead and it took a while for a rescuer to get on scene.

1)Do you want the dog looking for you that is highly motivated in a "crack head" kinda way to find you (and presumably the the rag I have tricked him into thinking you have)?

2)Or do you want the dog that is fueled by the desire to get a nice pat on the head from it's handler and working because of the great bond they have developed on obsticle courses and training camps?

The reason that the Police and SAR handlers in our area choose dog # 1 is not because they like to see "dance and towel shows", it is because it is what produces a better search dog with better range, capable of working through difficult distractions, in harsh conditions for a longer periods of time, and motivated for a lifetime of it.

I could go on and on and on but let me know what you are unclear about so I don't waste anyone's time........


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## Khoi Pham (Apr 17, 2006)

Drive is everything, it can overcome many flaws in the dog, there are no pressure or stress when you are doing drug search, but for sport, the dog have alot more stress, stress from doing OB while decoy is distracting, stress from pressuring from decoy, stress from tracking... so if you can build the drive to the highest of that dog is capable of, then it will help the dog going through some of the stress, the drive for the ball or a bite must be high so that the dog will think about it more and work toward that instead of worrying or stress about something else.
Go to my website and look at Blacky's obedience video, you will see that decoy distraction is high, the dog wants to bite the decoy bad, but he must do OB, now that will stress the dog, if his drive is not high for the ball and if he doesn't have high drive for the reward, he will brake OB and bite the decoys, imho, drive is everything.


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Jennifer Coulter said:


> The reason that the Police and SAR handlers in our area choose dog # 1 is not because they like to see "dance and towel shows", it is because it is what produces a better search dog with better range, capable of working through difficult distractions, in harsh conditions for a longer periods of time, and motivated for a lifetime of it.
> 
> I could go on and on and on but let me know what you are unclear about so I don't waste anyone's time........


I think that pretty much sums it up! Good post, Jennifer!


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Konnie Hein said:


> Chris -
> I can't give answers as far as narc/bomb detection dogs go, but as a detection dog trainer for disaster search and rescue, I need my dogs to be in a heightened state of prey/hunt drive in order to work independently of me for a long duration. This will not occur if the dog is working solely in "social interaction" or pack drive, or whatever you want to call it when your dog is working just for praise. My dog must bypass an incredible level of distraction (food, animals, human remains, loud noises, other rescuers, etc.) in order to find what we are looking for, which is a trapped, live human being. He must do this without me being right behind him to tell him to ignore these distractions. Working in prey/hunt drive is the only way for my dog to accomplish this. My dogs can work in this drive for very long durations, just like wild dogs and wolves can work in prey/hunt drive to track and chase their food. Wolves can be kicked and bitten by their prey, yet they still pursue it because they are in prey drive.
> 
> This is where choosing a dog who is addicted to playing tug with his ball/rag/toy (or has high prey drive) comes in. Associating the act of finding with the game of tugging satisfies his drive, which is what motivates him to pursue his "quarry" - in my case, trapped humans. I am not "tricking" my dog at all. He simply knows what he must do in order to satisfy his drive. There's no trickery involved.
> ...


Good answer, and I can see that SARs stuff being a long day/ night then day again compared too many other dog jobs. I’m not looking for the exception to the rule, if there is a rule. When I tell my dog to find the dope he certainly goes in to a heightened state, I don’t know if it is the state you are looking for. So your saying that if you took one of those dogs that tested as you liked for ball/tug drive but did not use ball/tug drive as a reward he would not be as successful just working for the bond or praise. I have done some man tracking with him and he goes like hell on the seek command each and every time and has never received anything but “good seek” and some petting upon the find. 
I get where you’re going with the payday thing, I do have many people who work for my company and praise does go along way when it is earned. Don’t get me wrong praise without pay won’t get you far in this world because we all have to put food on the table but we all like to hear “good job”. It certainly does make a big difference 
 My point is my dog gets feed no matter what, lucky bastard, but he has to work for praise and he seems to enjoy it.


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Jennifer Coulter said:


> Chris,
> 
> Say you are burried in an avalanche. You have about 15 minutes until you are dead and it took a while for a rescuer to get on scene.
> 
> ...


So you’re saying the crack head will make the find faster, than what looks to be a dog that is working but not shaking and going crazy? If you did not play tug games with your dog from here on out and just praised him do you think his performance would diminish? 
I don’t want to be stuck in an avalanche, keep me out of that


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Chris McDonald said:


> My dog will willingly do drug searches all day long and seem to be enjoying the challenge of the work.


I've never seen any dog that enjoys and stays focused on any repetitive task for that length of time. That seems like OCD to me.


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Khoi Pham said:


> Drive is everything, it can overcome many flaws in the dog, there are no pressure or stress when you are doing drug search, but for sport, the dog have alot more stress, stress from doing OB while decoy is distracting, stress from pressuring from decoy, stress from tracking... so if you can build the drive to the highest of that dog is capable of, then it will help the dog going through some of the stress, the drive for the ball or a bite must be high so that the dog will think about it more and work toward that instead of worrying or stress about something else.
> Go to my website and look at Blacky's obedience video, you will see that decoy distraction is high, the dog wants to bite the decoy bad, but he must do OB, now that will stress the dog, if his drive is not high for the ball and if he doesn't have high drive for the reward, he will brake OB and bite the decoys, imho, drive is everything.


 
My dog is placed under stress during a drug search; there is often gun fire or a surprise hostile attack on the handler during the search. After the event the dog is expected to get right back to searching when he is told it is OK and told to do so. Even with the man with the gun hovering over the handler


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> I've never seen any dog that enjoys and stays focused on any repetitive task for that length of time. That seems like OCD to me.


 
I miss represented things, there were breaks during the day, but there were still many long days. One of these days I will have to video tape a few search and see what you guys think. 
Thanks for the answers


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Chris:
At 6 years of age, my USAR dog might very well work his heart out for the rest of his life without any reward at the end of the search. It's now a trained pattern. That's all he knows about life because I pretty much restricted everything else. He's not even a house dog. He's brainwashed. And at this point, just the mere sight of my USAR uniform and other cues kick him into drive. He is a very high prey drive dog - loves to tug and retrieve - and all of his training centered around utilizing that drive. However, I'm not sure at which point he would lose motivation to search if he didn't get his reward on a regular basis. I have no idea what would happen, but I sure as heck am not going to risk somebody's life to find out, know what I mean? 

And, perhaps I could have trained him to find people just by using praise. He certainly likes that a lot and I do praise him while he's tugging with his reward toy with the "victim" in training. However, utilizing his drive made training _so_ much faster and easier. And, like I said before, the SAR dogs I've seen who supposedly work just for praise were not within my standard for an acceptable SAR dog. So, my opinion and training style are based on what I've seen and learned over the past 10 years. Your experiences might be altogether different. 

How was your dog originally trained for detection work and man-tracking? You alluded to the use of a rag for tugging with the detection work. Was he partially trained when you got him?


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## Khoi Pham (Apr 17, 2006)

Chris McDonald said:


> My dog is placed under stress during a drug search; there is often gun fire or a surprise hostile attack on the handler during the search. After the event the dog is expected to get right back to searching when he is told it is OK and told to do so. Even with the man with the gun hovering over the handler


Well that is great, you have a nice dog.


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Does anyone know what methods those crazy Germans used during wwII? I understand things have progressed but they were supposed to have some great dogs. I just can’t picture SS troops playing rag tag


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Jennifer Coulter said:


> Chris,
> 
> Say you are burried in an avalanche. You have about 15 minutes until you are dead and it took a while for a rescuer to get on scene.
> 
> ...


 

Hey Jen, whats wrong with your dogs ears they fold over? Aren’t they supposed to stand up? \\/:-\"


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Chris McDonald said:


> Does anyone know what methods those crazy Germans used during wwII? I understand things have progressed but they were supposed to have some great dogs. I just can’t picture SS troops playing rag tag


Are you ****ing kidding, 

I didn't put in any asterisks either.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Different dogs are motivated by different things. If your dog is motivated enough by just praise to do drug searches all day, then a good trainer/handler could probably get that "crazy crack head Sch obedience" out of him if they wanted to, using praise. It's less about what the reward is and more about how much drive the dog has for the reward, and then what the handler does with that drive. But like previously mentioned, certain drives will work better for certain jobs.


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## Chad Byerly (Jun 24, 2008)

My first reaction was shock as well Gerry, when I read about the SS troops' dogs. On that subject, well, desired behaviors were reinforced, much like other war dogs (conquistadors, etc.). Gruesome and ugly, while also likely tender and mundane, and yes I'm sure that nazi handlers gave dogs treats and play and affection. They were humans with canines. Aweful and normal.

As far as your main subject, 

If your dog likes to tug and retrieve (and eat) more than anything (I like this kind of dog), and you don't take advantage of letting them access that thrill with you and in their work... then they'll just access it at other times and it's a missed opportunity for best reinforcers.

Also, I'm impressed by what alot of agility people train with their crazy high drive performance dogs who can turn on, and turn off. I think these self control exercises and games would probably help many of the bouncing off the walls working dogs (and sport dogs), who don't have an "off switch". But the great K9s I've met tend to be calm when not working, and quick to be "on" for work.


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Konnie Hein said:


> Chris:
> At 6 years of age, my USAR dog might very well work his heart out for the rest of his life without any reward at the end of the search. It's now a trained pattern. That's all he knows about life because I pretty much restricted everything else. He's not even a house dog. He's brainwashed. And at this point, just the mere sight of my USAR uniform and other cues kick him into drive. He is a very high prey drive dog - loves to tug and retrieve - and all of his training centered around utilizing that drive. However, I'm not sure at which point he would lose motivation to search if he didn't get his reward on a regular basis. I have no idea what would happen, but I sure as heck am not going to risk somebody's life to find out, know what I mean?
> 
> And, perhaps I could have trained him to find people just by using praise. He certainly likes that a lot and I do praise him while he's tugging with his reward toy with the "victim" in training. However, utilizing his drive made training _so_ much faster and easier. And, like I said before, the SAR dogs I've seen who supposedly work just for praise were not within my standard for an acceptable SAR dog. So, my opinion and training style are based on what I've seen and learned over the past 10 years. Your experiences might be altogether different.
> ...


I personally don’t have enough experience to say I have experience. Yes he was trained when I got him. The facility he came from has been training with praise only for 35 years. I may be miss stating things here …. When I say praise only… I mean as a reward… they certainly do corrections with a prong. There are no corrections used in scent work ever though 
As I said my father’s dog is what would be considered a high drive sch dog. He’s on crack for the ball. Other than sch he has no additional training. My dog has been completely brain washed (as you say) for a scratch o the head. If I am on the couch and he walks over he will be very, very antsy have some of that lab like dance, licking my hand and pawing me. All I have to do is rest my hand on his head and he stops and sits there. As soon I remove my hand it starts all over again. It’s all he wants. I can skip feeding him for a day place his food in front of him and he would still rather get scratched. When I got him I was instructed on how he worked for praise and told not to give him any unless he completed an asked task, especially outside. I am by no-means saying he would be capable of doing what a lot of what you need. But I wonder how much my lack of handler skills play into effect. I am hoping to go and get some training at one of their other facilities for 7 days this winter. 7 days isn’t much but it all helps


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Chad Byerly said:


> My first reaction was shock as well Gerry, when I read about the SS troops' dogs. On that subject, well, desired behaviors were reinforced, much like other war dogs (conquistadors, etc.). Gruesome and ugly, while also likely tender and mundane, and yes I'm sure that nazi handlers gave dogs treats and play and affection. They were humans with canines. Aweful and normal.
> 
> As far as your main subject,
> 
> ...


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> Are you ****ing kidding,
> 
> I didn't put in any asterisks either.


No


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

***MOD DELETE *** like Baden they were dead serious but look where it got them.


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## Chad Byerly (Jun 24, 2008)

http://www.workingservicedogs.com/workingdogspictures.html


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

I have 2 big dumb GSD's here. They are always happy. They are happy with praise, happier with food, happiest for a ball.

I could train them to perform happily with a combination of praise and correction. They are pretty soft. But I don't need the prong, and they are even happier doing it, when there is a ball involved. I don't know what crack does to a dog, but they certainly get into position a lot quicker, run a lot faster on the recall, slam their body to the ground a lot quicker on the down, and are far more persistent when searching, when there is a ball involved.

Can they be trained without it? Well, don't know enough about detection to say if they could do that purely based on me telling them "good boy," but certainly everything else could be trained without a ball, if I was willing to sacrifice speed on the recall, speed on positioning, speed on the down, and overall consistency.

I watched a trainer a while ago working a dog on the down in motion. The dog didn't perform adequately so the handler goes and "hides" a long stick behind his back to whack the dog with if the speed wasn't fast enough. The dog saw the stick, and suddenly performed. It took a threat of punishment for the dog to perform, and the dog knew when the stick was not and when the stick was present, altering its behavior based on what the dog thought the consequence was going to be. The down made the dog duck his head. Did he perform? Well. Yeah, after he saw a threat. I'd rather the dog want to perform the down in hopes that there is always a reward, rather than thinking "can I get away with not doing it this time?"

How people train their dogs is up to them, I don't really care. Some people are embarrassed to walk down the street with a dog that pulls on the leash, or embarrassed of owning a dog that jumps up. Apparently people are also embarrassed of a dog that enjoys playing with a ball!? Go figure. And other people enjoy seeing their dog enjoy themselves, don't care what the neighbors think if the dog pulls on the leash, don't feel embarrassed of having a jumpy dog, because they know that as soon as they tell the dog to heel, the dog heels. If they tell the dog not to jump, the dog won't jump, and they allow the dog to enjoy playing with toys if that's what makes them happy.

It often sounds more like an ego problem than a discussion on dog training when people start questioning why you would want a dog to be happy in their work. I stopped caring about how people train a long time ago, as long as they are happy with their dog and I am happy with mine. Praise vs. Reward discussions are rarely created with the intent to change ones training ideas, they are simply a way for people to announce their opinions under the guise of a question


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Chris McDonald said:


> As I said my father’s dog is what would be considered a high drive sch dog. He’s on crack for the ball. Other than sch he has no additional training.


I thought one of "that places" biggest marketing points was that they had NO sport lines in their dogs, just many many generations of nothing but "working dogs"? Sounds like your dogs father was a sport dog though.


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Sorry I forgot the quote 
No shock intended on the question… none at all.


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Chris,

Your dog works for praise/petting/interaction as it is the best reward that has ever been offered. You think that the dog is working because you asked it to, but it simply working for a reward like the rest of our dogs. 

Your dog has never had the opportunity to be rewarded with food, toys, tugs. Who knows what MAY have been if your dog had had this opportunity to make those associations from the beginging. Dogs CAN learn to love this at an older age too, sometimes the results are not what they would have been if you started early especially if the dog has been corrected for that kind of "fun" in its past. Like was taught that tugging is bad or chasing a ball will result in a correction for example.


I don't know if I am going to say this right but people often use prey and food rewards because they are more basic or primal on the scale of instinctual behaviors that have helped the dog (and it's ancestors) to stay alive all these years. Dogs have been selevtively bred to enjoy praise and petting for sure, but a dog can live with out it. They can't live without eating (and by extention hunting, chasing and killing) So some people feel that the more basic a drive you can tap into the more reliable it would be as a motivator. Your dog does get some of this.....it get's to hunt. That can be a very basic drive that a dog can learn to enjoy and find reinforcing. Difference is that my dog gets to "kill" (rag the crap out of something) at the end of the hunt. Makes the hunt even MORE reinforcing.

Whatever the motivator for the dog it must be used correctly. If you are using praise and pets for rewards, they must not be used for nothing (like you have been instructed). Perhaps you even have levels of praise/petting. For example does your dog get the same praise for finding dope as for a good downstay? Shouldn't if your priority is finding dope. I use lots of rewards praise/food/tugs in my training. But I ensure that NOTHING in life is as rewarding for my dog as searching and the rag reward he receives. The highest value reward (for your dog) must be saved for it's most important work.

If you are ACTUALLY interested in learning more about using toys as motivators and seeing what the difference could look like in your dog's motivation to do all kinds of things, I would suggest you skip the trip to the Phillippenes or Niagra Falls and take a different kind of course to expand your knowledge. You could probably get some good suggestions here. You might just "get it"!


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> I thought one of "that places" biggest marketing points was that they had NO sport lines in their dogs, just many many generations of nothing but "working dogs"? Sounds like your dogs father was a sport dog though.


Its not my dogs father,,, it’s my father’s dog that is sch. My dog is from “that place”. Lets please try and keep “that place” of this thread. I am just asking what I think is a legit question… I in no way am looking for a pissing match. My father’s dog is from Germany with one of those long names I can’t say.


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Chris McDonald said:


> Hey Jen, whats wrong with your dogs ears they fold over? Aren’t they supposed to stand up? \\/:-\"



Don't let the cute fluffy exterior fool you Chris. [-X He is "BADEN" serious about his work :lol: 

Sometimes when the wind blows just right.....


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> *** MOD DELETE ****like Baden they were dead serious but look where it got them.


Gerry your way out of line, if I got offended I would be over your comment. I have many close Jewish friends, personal and work related. For you to make this comment from what I asked is out of control. EDIT


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

For ****s sake, Chris, you have a dutchie right ??? Everyone likes a different look in a dog. I saw a dutchie at this FR trial last week, and the dog just went about his business. Never looked happy or unhappy, just did the work.

THis is the thing with dogs. What you start with, is what you get used to, and if it was a good dog, you will look for THAT dog again.

When I first started Mondio, I used to look at the Mals and wonder what was wrong with them.

I think that a lot of newer people that have dealt with Mals, will just not understand how your dog can work all day. LOL

I wonder how long some dogs that are all pumped up would be able to work, but with Mondio, you don't really find out.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Uhhh, I only read the first page....well some of it. Not so sure I wanted to post where they are (( DELETED reference to another post.))

And to think how many of you ****wads get mad when I use the word ****. Now you can see how ****ed I think you guys are, getting mad over an acronym.

Again, I am sorry I posted on this thread. I am offended.


MOD NOTE: No edit of this post, per se; deleted reference to edited post by another member


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Jennifer Coulter said:


> Chris,
> 
> Your dog works for praise/petting/interaction as it is the best reward that has ever been offered. You think that the dog is working because you asked it to, but it simply working for a reward like the rest of our dogs.
> 
> ...


Nice answer(s) Jen. As far as the trip I’m hoping to head down to Costa for a week with me and the dog, and then my wife and kids will be coming down for a week vacation. I am looking forward to it. I am not going just for the dog training, I want to look at some dirt for sale, so I am killing a few birds with one stone. With that being said, the vast amount of training the dog and I have done is with the towel trainers, I am 10 hours from Canada. You are right I do need to see all sides of training. If I only experienced one sided training I would not be making this post. Now in total I may have seen maybe a dozen tug drive dogs work, labs, mals, I think I have the only dutch in the area. My dutch runs mid pack in the drive look when compared to all the tug dogs. I think some of the tug dogs just suck, and they would suck no matter how they were trained (some are great) and should not be there but are due to budget restraints. So far, I think the more experienced instructors I have worked with are impressed. And they are the ones that want to bring more of the crazy out in him. My dog bangs out the finds I am not convinced making him look as if he has more drive will make him any better. His searches are very energetic and positive. 
 I am in no way experienced but general observation when I am around other dogs at both “that place” and the local “government dogs” … in my opinion the crowd of dogs and handlers at “that place” kicks ass. If my daughters were lost in the woods I know who I would rather look for them. It’s not to say that there is not “government dogs” that are superior it is just what I witnessed so far in general. I would love to watch you and your team train.. it certainly may help me “get it” 
Now to flip it around I would be interested what you would think if you went to “that place” for a few days (oo my god). I might be very wrong but I don’t think you will find it as you think you will. Im not saying it will switch you over to the dark side. But you might be a little impressed? 
Thanks for the input, it was helpful


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Uhhh, I only read the first page....well some of it. Not so sure I wanted to post where they are using ** DELETED **
> 
> And to think how many of you ****wads get mad when I use the word ****. Now you can see how ****ed I think you guys are, getting mad over an acronym.
> 
> Again, I am sorry I posted on this thread. I am offended.


 
I agree with you Jeff, can someone please take that post out? I really don’t want to be affiliated with anyone thinking that was where I was heading!!!! 
I cant wait till you come to NJ and tell me how bad I suck and me and my dog are pieces of s***. I am really looking forward to it.. really! Ill see you in the spring


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## Chad Byerly (Jun 24, 2008)

I'm glad the moderator took out the tug statement. I read the author's intent as infusing some real life horror related to who many of the German dogs were really guarding and attacking, alongside their SS handlers. But it was offensive. I think deleting it was appropriate.



Chad Byerly said:


> http://www.workingservicedogs.com/workingdogspictures.html


To be clear, I posted this link, because it's oddly related (breeder/trainer of dog in thread, who's owner brings up WWII German dogs..). To me, this page from one of Baden's sites looks more like reverence for Hitler. Like neonazi pinups, from 'Hitler Beat'.:-&

I'd expect Stephanitz there, or Most, or other dogs owned by famous Germans. That would be expected, and appropriate. Ya know.


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Chris,

It sounds to me like you have a nice dog. You are correct that there are nice dogs and crappy dogs no matter the method of training. 

I personally would go to a place like B***n and see what they are up to and see how the dogs work. Tell you what, if you put in a word for me I would visit them in Canada next November. I am quite sure that they are NOT interested in me comming to watch them train and see the kennels, but I could be wrong. 

You on the other hand are welcome to watch me train anytime, for free. You may have to spend some time in a cold dark hole in the snow, but I know that you abhore the "manicured lawn" type conditions to work dogs in so I know you will LOVE IT;-)


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

How people train their dogs is up to them, I don't really care. Some people are embarrassed to walk down the street with a dog that pulls on the leash, or embarrassed of owning a dog that jumps up. Apparently people are also embarrassed of a dog that enjoys playing with a ball!? Go figure. And other people enjoy seeing their dog enjoy themselves, don't care what the neighbors think if the dog pulls on the leash, don't feel embarrassed of having a jumpy dog, because they know that as soon as they tell the dog to heel, the dog heels. If they tell the dog not to jump, the dog won't jump, and they allow the dog to enjoy playing with toys if that's what makes them happy.

It often sounds more like an ego problem than a discussion on dog training when people start questioning why you would want a dog to be happy in their work. I stopped caring about how people train a long time ago, as long as they are happy with their dog and I am happy with mine. Praise vs. Reward discussions are rarely created with the intent to change ones training ideas, they are simply a way for people to announce their opinions under the guise of a question [/quote]

Mike, Good answer, but I don’t think my thoughts come out in type too clearly all the time, maybe I need to use more of those yellow head things. When I spend time with the crazy sch dog after a few hours I can’t help but look at him, shake my head and laugh. He’s a cool dog and fun to play with but after a while I can’t help but laugh at him….. dude here is your ball just go.. Be happy. I don’t know if the word “embarrassed” for him/me fits the bill, but it what I came up with. As for my dog as long as he is not under some form of stress while training he looks happy to me. He looks stressed when he is stressed. I understand your point on the ego/opinions under disguise of a question. Maybe your right, but I thought to myself my reason for asking was whether or not I should use a towel if someone recommends it after a find. After reading a few of the opinions from people who I have no idea are, or what if any skill they have, In the future if someone recommends I play tug after a find I think I’m gona wiggle my way out of it. As long as I am happy with the performance and he makes the find I’m good with it. Maybe I was just trying to justify my thought to myself, and.. hey it worked. 
And like usual I attracted at least one crazy person 
Thanks


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Chad Byerly said:


> http://www.workingservicedogs.com/workingdogspictures.html


Whats your point?


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## Lyn Chen (Jun 19, 2006)

Detection work and related things aside, I do feel there is something wrong with the idea some people get that you have to give the dog a reward or he's expecting a reward all the time. Once I was told by a Schutzhund trainer that my dog has to learn to play with different kinds of toys just in case I didn't have the one he liked on hand! Dogs follow instinctively. If they like you, and they understand you, they'll be happy to obey you. That is the biggest difference between a dog and any other animal on the planet...that's why we like them so much.

That said, I don't see anything wrong with letting the dog enjoy life a little.


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Jennifer Coulter said:


> Chris,
> 
> It sounds to me like you have a nice dog. You are correct that there are nice dogs and crappy dogs no matter the method of training.
> 
> ...


I think your right you aint going to be watching, you and your dog will be doing some form of a training exercises. I am sure they will let you go about it anyway you want. When I was there they did not force their methods upon people. there were people from far away as well as locals with their house pets. I think the locals just thought it was like one of those doggy day cares for two hour or two class they took. 
As for that cold dark hole in the snow. Can’t you do that snow training in Florida or something? Maybe use beach sand instead of snow? With an umbrella in my drink.
 Actually it would be neat to see… maybe next vacation.


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## Al Curbow (Mar 27, 2006)

Chris, i re-read this thread and i kind of don't understand what you're saying. Are you saying the dog should just work with no reward and the dog should not be drivey or animated? Can you get a video up of your dog working?


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Al Curbow said:


> Chris, i re-read this thread and i kind of don't understand what you're saying. Are you saying the dog should just work with no reward and the dog should not be drivey or animated? Can you get a video up of your dog working?


No that’s not what I am saying or asking… I had a few questions that I don’t think I got out of my pea brain right. And yes I am going to try to get a video of a few of his searches; I will try and work on it this weekend. 
I think one of my question is – if you have a dog that was never necessarily raised to build up that crazy ball type drive but does display a very eager consistent drive when asked to work, would you use training techniques to try and build up what looks to be a more eager hyper drive look. If so is there a point that it comes counterproductive? Can it cause a dog to tire itself out if it is expected to work for long periods of time? It just seems many people love that hyper drive. Im not very experienced but I like my dog a step or two below hyper drive. Does this mean he may be less productive? Or is the hyper drive more for looks? 
I think that’s what I’m asking


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Al Curbow said:


> Chris, i re-read this thread and i kind of don't understand what you're saying. Are you saying the dog should just work with no reward and the dog should not be drivey or animated? Can you get a video up of your dog working?


Al, I posted these links on here before, its all I got right now. There me goofing around with the dog. Your gona have to be pretty board to sit through these home videos. I will get some video of him doing searches soon. 
[FONT='Arial','sans-serif']http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5fIDK-Xsp_c[/FONT][FONT='Times New Roman','serif'][/FONT]
[FONT='Arial','sans-serif']http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XBNcE2uyugs[/FONT][FONT='Times New Roman','serif'][/FONT]
[FONT='Times New Roman','serif'][FONT='Arial','sans-serif']http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PhrRUMmLss4[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT='Times New Roman','serif'][FONT='Arial','sans-serif']http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iA6uCdYhm0w[/FONT][/FONT]


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## Al Curbow (Mar 27, 2006)

Nice dog Chris, cool how he went up the wall, all of mine would run around, lol. I guess what i'm not understanding is the "building" part, the pup i have here now just came loaded as a puppy, fun crazy drivey pup no building necessary! Ball? yehaw! stick? yes! blade of grass? Wahoo! tug, suit, sleeve, hose, all the same thing, it's just drive.


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Chris McDonald said:


> No that’s not what I am saying or asking… I had a few questions that I don’t think I got out of my pea brain right. And yes I am going to try to get a video of a few of his searches; I will try and work on it this weekend.
> I think one of my question is – if you have a dog that was never necessarily raised to build up that crazy ball type drive but does display a very eager consistent drive when asked to work, would you use training techniques to try and build up what looks to be a more eager hyper drive look. If so is there a point that it comes counterproductive? Can it cause a dog to tire itself out if it is expected to work for long periods of time? It just seems many people love that hyper drive. Im not very experienced but I like my dog a step or two below hyper drive. Does this mean he may be less productive? Or is the hyper drive more for looks?
> I think that’s what I’m asking


IMO - "hyper" drive is not necessarily a desirable thing. I've worked with a few dogs that I would consider to be very high drive, yet not hyper about it. They are persistent in their work, and do not waste a lot of energy in needless, hyperactive behaviors. They have decent "off switches" as well. My husband's now deceased Labrador would be one of those dogs. He was also a very serious dog and had bitten several people in his lifetime. Would have made a great protection dog, but was a darn good searcher.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Mods are getting PMs: Apparently one member responded sarcastically to offensive posts by another member, and the meant-to-be-sarcastic message was in turn perceived (by many, I may add, in view of how many posts and PMs it generated) as offensive itself.

e.t.a. The thread is closed. Any threads with posts on that kind of sub-topic will also be closed.


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