# Civil?



## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Who came up with the term "civil" any way. I always thing of civilized and/or social politeness. How did it become to mean what it does [depending on who you ask] in bite work?
> 
> T


I don't know. 

And what DID it come to mean?

I used to think I understood what it meant, until I read an old thread on the definition of a civil dog. 

There was pretty big disagreement on whether the definition needed reference to equipment. That is, simply: would engage with no agitation from the helper (or bad guy).


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Connie Sutherland said:


> I don't know.
> 
> And what DID it come to mean?
> 
> ...


I would bet on it that it came from the German "Zivilbeissen" which is opposed to the "Sport Biting". "Zivil" in German meaning anything but sport :-k


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## Stefan Schaub (Sep 12, 2010)

Gillian Schuler said:


> I would bet on it that it came from the German "Zivilbeissen" which is opposed to the "Sport Biting". "Zivil" in German meaning anything but sport :-k


It means the dog bites with out any suit,hidden sleeve or what ever.he goes for that what he gets


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Ss we agree!!


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## Steve Estrada (Mar 6, 2011)

I agree with S&G. But let's confound it even more by defining it in a more narrow sense. So is a dog that bites someone civil? Or does a dog have to have training to be considered civil?


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Steve Estrada said:


> I agree with S&G. But let's confound it even more by defining it in a more narrow sense. So is a dog that bites someone civil? Or does a dog have to have training to be considered civil?


do dogs need training to bite?

I think this term is specific to bitework, and no need to confuse it with pet dogs. No equipment. civil response = civil dog. Civil response = bite or willingness to.

Confound this. how do you prove a dog is civil? Hidden sleeve is equipment. Muzzle is equipment? Does the dog have to have a live bite to be civil? I don't think so...


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

these may seem like stupid Q's, but :

aren't all confident dogs with good grips civil until they are taught to target equipment ? 

for a dog that will be used to fight humans, the human should always be the target, correct ?


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## Steve Estrada (Mar 6, 2011)

I agree Dave it pertains to working dogs. I do think their are suits that would prove a dog civil or not. In my experience you can usually tell if you're on the front end!


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## Steve Estrada (Mar 6, 2011)

P.S. Dave why do horses buck? Kind of like why do dogs bite...


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Steve Estrada said:


> I agree Dave it pertains to working dogs. I do think their are suits that would prove a dog civil or not. In my experience you can usually tell if you're on the front end!


Steve. I agree. but think about how stupid the term is in regards to how we judge it. We have made a term we *can't* prove in training.

You agree, no equipment and the dog will bite. But then you mention a suit. You have to do it PG county style, hire a bum for a bottle of MD 20/20. only way.


I agree with what you said though, Steve. Standing on the other end (after having seen dog bites) gives you a very good idea of what you are looking at.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Steve Estrada said:


> P.S. Dave why do horses buck? Kind of like why do dogs bite...


 
What are the circumstances with the horse, Steve? I can try and get you in to see Monte Roberts. He is a whiz with bucking and saddles and what not. I really don't get your question though.

And why do you think dogs bite?


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

rick smith said:


> aren't all confident dogs with good grips civil until they are taught to target equipment ?
> 
> for a dog that will be used to fight humans, the human should always be the target, correct ?


 
Rick, how would you know a grip was "good" if you hadn't seen it on equipment?


With younger dogs, you can train a lot of the behaviors without actually getting the dog to "target the human". IE you can work a leg dog on a tug, vertically to get the dog used to turning his head sideways to bite a leg. Is he really biting the man, or a tug? This is where the real or sporty arguement comes in and it has nothing to do with police dogs or sport dogs. Some police dogs and sport dogs can bite men. Some dogs can't. Some need training to do it. Some need more control than anything to tell them when it's appropriate.. 

This is where I think you may find out, if you are good, whether your dog bites and you have to teach him control, or whether you have to teach him to bite. Some people pick and some breedings lean to, a dog that will bite for real, with little or no training. Predisposed to bite what's in front of them, when threatened.


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## jim stevens (Jan 30, 2012)

I did something like that with my dog, wondered if she would bite without a sleeve. I had a real thick knee brace that I put on my right arm, under a sweatshirt, gave her a target and gave the go command. Fortunately she did a good out that time, hurt like a bastard, but didn't draw blood, she is only 14 months old. I guess that would be civil? Next time I'm going bum and M/D 2020


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

Good grips aren't required for civil. Civil is akin to delivering a message, not opening it and reading it. One of those Caucasian Ovcharka's could open you up real nice, sloppy grips and all.

Now, is there a difference between "civil" and "social aggression". Is social aggression constant, or just when necessary? Can a socially aggressive dog become "equipment oriented"?


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Daryl Ehret said:


> Good grips aren't required for civil. Civil is akin to delivering a message, not opening it and reading it. One of those Caucasian Ovcharka's could open you up real nice, sloppy grips and all.
> 
> Now, is there a difference between "civil" and "social aggression". Is social aggression constant, or just when necessary? Can a socially aggressive dog become "equipment oriented"?


 
I don't think Rick was suggesting that a good grip was required for a dog to be ciivil. Just asking a question.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Gillian Schuler said:


> I would bet on it that it came from the German "Zivilbeissen" which is opposed to the "Sport Biting". "Zivil" in German meaning anything but sport :-k


That's the best explanation I've ever heard. It makes so much more sense then the English usage of the word.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Dave Colborn said:


> What are the circumstances with the horse, Steve? I can try and get you in to see Monte Roberts. He is a whiz with bucking and saddles and what not. I really don't get your question though.
> 
> And why do you think dogs bite?


I was just re-reading his horse communication book a couple of months ago--Monty Roberts.

T


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Whilst searching for a translation of Zivilschutzhund as opposed to Sportschutzhund, I came across this interesting article from Guy Verschatze:

http://www.hexental.be/belringsport.htm

In most German speaking countries, the Zivlschutzhund begins his training as a Sportschutzhund, the higher, the better, guaranteeing obedience. The actual Zivilschutzhund begins afterwards with no helpers with bite sleeves, no club atmosphere, etc. It is also a warranty to prove that the dogs were not deliberately made "aggressive" (scharf).

The real training, to bite wherever and how he can begins, mostly in isolated areas where the dog has to fight the assailant and incapacitate him. The former training in sport is not a hindrance to the dog. 

In Schutzhundsport the handler learns to read his dog and assess his readiness to fight.


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## Steve Estrada (Mar 6, 2011)

Horses buck because they can same applies to dogs & biting.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> I was just re-reading his horse communication book a couple of months ago--Monty Roberts.
> 
> T


I watched his videos and trained a horse under saddle and rider. (not in his 30 min time frame) it's pretty neat stuff. get some enlightenment about how to get an animal to do what you want without even touching it.

I liked his style, as he acknowledges humans as predators, and horses see us as that. Doesn't try and overlook that in the training. Run a horse, and then give it a choice. Do what I want or run some more. It's funny how much they don't want to run after the first good experience. Successive approximation from nothing to saddle bridle and rider


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Dave Colborn said:


> .... You agree, no equipment and the dog will bite. ...


I can't tell if there is a consensus on which is central to the definition: engages in the absence of equipment, or engages in the absence of agitation from the bad guy/decoy.

What about equipment maybe being present but irrelevant? Was that what Stefan meant by _"he goes for that what he gets"_? Does it mean the dog targets without reference to any equipment that might be present? 

How does civil work with or compare with defense?


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Connie Sutherland said:


> I can't tell if there is a consensus on which is central to the definition: engages in the absence of equipment, or engages in the absence of agitation from the bad guy/decoy.
> 
> What about equipment maybe being present but irrelevant? Was that what Stefan meant by _"he goes for that what he gets"_? Does it mean the dog targets without reference to any equipment that might be present?
> 
> How does civil work with or compare with defense?



In my opinion the definition of a civil dog is one who will engage when there is no equipment, however I also believe most dogs when presented with a target, will quite naturally bite what is presented.

In my opinion a dog can be civil but hasn't necessarily been trained to engage a passive decoy, so to me, there are civil dogs who engage passive decoys and civil dogs that don't but will engage when the decoy moves either in defense or prey.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Connie Sutherland said:


> I can't tell if there is a consensus on which is central to the definition: engages in the absence of equipment, or engages in the absence of agitation from the bad guy/decoy.
> 
> What about equipment maybe being present but irrelevant? Was that what Stefan meant by _"he goes for that what he gets"_? Does it mean the dog targets without reference to any equipment that might be present?
> 
> How does civil work with or compare with defense?


As I understand it and from conversations held with, in particular, a Military dog handler, one who bought in the dogs for the Army, the loose term from Stefan "he goes for what he gets" holds true.

After the initial training in Schutzhundsport, the dog goes into a training where dog club training cannot compete. It is forbidden in Germany, Switzerland, Austria, etc. to train dogs in this manner, apart from those involved in Military and Police institutions. 

You may exclaim that the Schutzhundsport trial doesn't tax the dog enough but an experienced handler can watch his dog developing and become aware of what he can bring to the table.

To further progress in police and military circles, it requires a dog with sound nerves and the willingness to take up the fight. That is why I find that any undersleeve arms etc. will be ignored by the dog because of his extreme desire to fight and win.

In conclusion, after schutzhund training, the helper threw away the sleeve and told me to send my Briard. He leapt up to the throat of the helper (who caught him neatly.) My Briard was a good Schutzhund dog but certainly not what I would call police / military material.

The friend we knew in the Army had a GSD that would bite anything. We were once witness to his biting efforts. Our friend pointed to a lamp post and ordered him to bite - he did. This dog bit everything he was told to. I never followed his progress but I have often thought about the method of training .........


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

i may be way off track here, but i don't think it's always so black and white, and altho some may disagree, i don't think being civil is necessarily always training/equipment related 

a first hand example : a dog i worked with for weeks would generally bite anyone that came into its space, but i never considered it a fear biter. my def of a fear biter is a dog who will snap and/or bite to get a reaction and when the person reacts the dog will release and back up, and often it will be in retreat mode even before it bites. it will almost never grip and never move IN to the person. this dog would GRIP, not bite, and try and drive the person back and NOT release. the more fight it felt the more it would drive. this dog reportedly had some training by a person who does work for the police (K9) academy when it was brought to him by the pet owner, but i never saw it being "trained", so i will say it never saw equipment and was never taught to target a sleeve, etc. more likely the "trainer" had tried to break the dog down, since it started out in life as "home protection"....pet. it didn't work, and i came into the picture much later. to me it was CIVIL, and i didn't try and waste time to speculate why. i worked with it with hidden equip and i could never get it to lose interest and out simply by freezing. i could also back up a bit and raise a forearm and that would NOT trigger a bite. same with giving it a leg. and it would not go for my torso when it was muzzled. so i will say it had no "equip bias" ... and the police wouldn't accept it because they don't use dobes, and it was eventually killed. so maybe in some cases, civil could mean aggressive to humans. but either way you can't remove aggression when you are discussing "civil" ....

of course i'm assuming most people here are referring to much more stable working dogs that have had bitework training, not aggressive dog cases. once a dog has been conditioned to grip sleeves it will always bite sleeves, and the sleeve is the preferred target. often just the movement to quickly raise/present a forearm will get a bite even if the person is not wearing the sleeve because the dog has been conditioned to the movement as well as the visual cue from the equipment ...... trainers don't do this for obvious reasons, but try it yourself if you doubt this, and be safe of course  so a dog who grips like this is NOT showing any signs of being civil imo, even though the "equipment" is not there. to me it is still (mild sport related) agitation even tho the person may not be giving the dog any other threat postures. this level dog would not be considered civil to me at all. 
- bitework is never live bite training (without equipment) unless you are way over the top and warped .... duh 
- so it shouldn't be overlooked that usually standard bite training has the (padded) helper running away or toward the dog, and is usually showing other body postures (waving a sleeve, gun, stick slapping, whip cracking, visually threatening; whatever) ..... these are all additional cues to let the dog know it can/should engage. i consider this a part of the "equipment image. so i think it would also apply when triggering a prey bite and not related to being civil
- but if you stood a helper with only hidden leg/arm/torso protection (NOT a full suit) at a distance away from the dog, who remained a statue and didn't MOVE a muscle after you sent the dog, i submit that the helper would probably NOT get a bite from the dog described above. and the dog might even show some confusion. an IPO dog might go into a semi-B/H. But i say a civil dog would grip the helper without any hesitation and not slow down a bit when it was coming in. so to me it seems to be logical that "civil" would be a desired temperament for PSD/MWD work, and this might be one way to test for it


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Rocl saod:

_once a dog has been conditioned to grip sleeves it will always bite sleeves, and the sleeve is the preferred target. often just the movement to quickly raise/present a forearm will get a bite even if the person is not wearing the sleeve because the dog has been conditioned to the movement as well as the visual cue from the equipment ._

I don't agree to that.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

re: "Our friend pointed to a lamp post and ordered him to bite - he did."

that is a ridiculous way to show off ... no wonder he was in the Army  ... Navy guys would only demo that with something that wouldn't chip teeth, like maybe a traffic cone :evil:


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

The civil dog willingly bites with no training but The dog trained to bite may not be civil.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Wow this got convoluted. 

Civil. Dog that will bite without equipment present. 

Passive bite. A dog that will bite a passive subject. 

Lamp post. Don't bite. Break teeth.

Defense. Dogs reaction to a threat. Fight, Flight, or displacement. (Defense not bad, all dogs have it)

Ricks example of an aggressive dog case (probably trained to be aggressive from the sound of it) and by virtue of that, not an aggression case, just a case of bad training that he has to deal with. Just my opine rick, as I have never seen the dog. 

Passive bites are generally a trained behavior. A statue or someone under a tarp, under a desk, in a tree, can all trained. If you are smart, so you don't see it in the field and have an AW shit moment, you train it first.. How many of us have seen dogs scared shitless from a statue that surprises them??? No movement is scary (Hence why you don't move much when you are trying to threaten [Defense] a dog) 

If you teach dogs from the beginning, barking makes movement, it is much easier to transition a dog from biting a moving decoy to a passive one. IE picture all your backtie work from an early age with the decoy on the floor, to start with. or a chair, or under a tarp. (VS. standing up with a padded shutzhund stick, making the same movements) If you have gotten the dog to bark and bite comfortably on the back tie, usually they will transfer into this easily. Then, you can condition a dog to bark at a passive guy, in any configuration, on the backtie, while you are working on the dogs grip, strike, targeting, control, etc.. 

Don't stand in front of the dog waving a stick because you saw someone with an accent do it (or anything else for that matter). You should always be listening for the content of what the accent laden one is telling/showing you, and not focusing on the cool way it sounds coming out of their mouths.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

rick smith said:


> - but if you stood a helper with only hidden leg/arm/torso protection (NOT a full suit) at a distance away from the dog, who remained a statue and didn't MOVE a muscle after you sent the dog, i submit that the helper would probably NOT get a bite from the dog described above. and the dog might even show some confusion. an IPO dog might go into a semi-B/H. But i say a civil dog would grip the helper without any hesitation and not slow down a bit when it was coming in. so to me it seems to be logical that "civil" would be a desired temperament for PSD/MWD work, and this might be one way to test for it


I dont know many people that would do this to try to test true civility in a dog. if the helper does not move a muscle, who is to say where the dog may bite him? say he has a sleeve on, and the dog bites his gut?

one way to judge if a dog is civil could be that the dog goes under the sleeve and tried to chew your nuts off in training...not saying that would be a requirement, or even deisrable, but certainly would be an indicator that the dog might be civil, at least in my mind


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## Steve Estrada (Mar 6, 2011)

Bob Scott said:


> The civil dog willingly bites with no training but The dog trained to bite may not be civil.


I agree as that has been my experience, it's a no brainier for the true civil dog whereas the trained dog responds to what it has been taught.....JMHO


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Steve Estrada said:


> I agree as that has been my experience, it's a no brainier for the true civil dog whereas the trained dog responds to what it has been taught.....JMHO


 
so you and bob think that a dog being civil is genetic...hmmmm


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Dave Colborn said:


> Wow this got convoluted.
> 
> Civil. Dog that will bite without equipment present.
> 
> Passive bite. A dog that will bite a passive subject.



Then the definition of civil has nothing in it about "the dog will bite without agitation from the bitee" (or decoy)? Passive bite is another thing?

I know I keep bringing this up. I've read and heard these long discussions where many of the participants cited this (engaging without requiring decoy agitation) as equal to or greater than "without equipment present" in importance, and in fact then branched off to say "equipment heck. A civil dog ignores equipment if it's there, 'taking what he can 
get' " (I think Stefan was saying).


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Then the definition of civil has nothing in it about "the dog will bite without agitation from the bitee" (or decoy)? Passive bite is another thing?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The dog will bite without equipment. 

Passive bites are just training another exercise. If a dog bites, it isn't a big issue to train a passive bite. A dog can be genetically predisposed to bite without equipment, which you find out (guess until real bites) when testing or training, or it can be taught. usually, tho, equipment orientation is taught more than a dog being taught to be civil. Think about it. The dog always gets a bite on equipment, so why should he want to engage a naked dude. This is where it takes some talent to train a dog to bite a man, without putting cues to bite equipment in.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Dave Colborn said:


> The dog will bite without equipment.
> 
> Passive bites are just training another exercise. If a dog bites, it isn't a big issue to train a passive bite. A dog can be genetically predisposed to bite without equipment, which you find out (guess until real bites) when testing or training, or it can be taught. usually, tho, equipment orientation is taught more than a dog being taught to be civil. *Think about it.* The dog always gets a bite on equipment, so why should he want to engage a naked dude. This is where it takes some talent to train a dog to bite a man, without putting cues to bite equipment in.


I AM thinking about it. It's breaking my brain, ever since you rightly pointed out that this a trait that can't really be proved. :lol:

I see, though, I think. This is the part that is almost impossible to prove but also central to the definition: the no-equipment-needed part.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Connie Sutherland said:


> I AM thinking about it. It's breaking my brain, ever since you rightly pointed out that this a trait that can't really be proved. :lol:
> 
> I see, though, I think. This is the part that is almost impossible to prove but also central to the definition: the no-equipment-needed part.


 

Don't break your head, Connie. Use your words....lol. It can be proved....


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Dave Colborn said:


> Don't break your head, Connie. Use your words....lol. It can be proved....


Use my words? With my indoor voice? :lol:


Here's your words:
_
Confound this. how do you prove a dog is civil? Hidden sleeve is equipment. Muzzle is equipment? Does the dog have to have a live bite to be civil? I don't think so..._


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## Steve Estrada (Mar 6, 2011)

Dave Colborn said:


> so you and bob think that a dog being civil is genetic...hmmmm


Definitely believe its genetic. For example I left a female in Belgium for training prior to being bred with very experienced trainer. She only wanted him, throw the sleeve, throw a party, it was game on if you threatened. No she wasn't trained that way & every decoy I worked her with always asked if I had control!!! Finally got her to bite & stay on the sleeve but crack the whip & she was going to bite you.
I can't answer for Bob so this my experience. I won't keep a dog that won't bite you appropriately :-\"


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Steve Estrada said:


> Definitely believe its genetic. For example I left a female in Belgium for training prior to being bred with very experienced trainer. She only wanted him, throw the sleeve, throw a party, it was game on if you threatened. No she wasn't trained that way & every decoy I worked her with always asked if I had control!!! Finally got her to bite & stay on the sleeve but crack the whip & she was going to bite you.
> I can't answer for Bob so this my experience. I won't keep a dog that won't bite you appropriately :-\"


 
Command vs. instinct.
Careful Steve. We could have Journey #2:wink:


T


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Use my words? With my indoor voice? :lol:
> 
> 
> Here's your words:
> ...


Still don't break your head. You contribute too much.


I DO believe you can test a dog and be reasonably sure he'll bite in like circumstances. It goes back to what steve estrada said about being able to tell when you are on the other end. If you know what you are looking at, you have a good idea about whether a dog will bite or not, as a helper. 

Every time you deploy your dog for a bite, it's an individual trial, though. Train train train, and you will still encounter a situation where a dog might not bite. There is no "my dog will bite" in every instance. So, I think with that thought, you can say a dog is very civil. has a good civil response, and be as sure of him biting as you could without saying he was civil. Which, then ruins the definition. Back to the board....


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## georgia estes (Nov 3, 2009)

hmm I've wondered this too. I have a dog that has and will bite anyone and anything, passive or not, equipment or not, won't take the suit or sleeve as a reward, will drop it and bite the guy immediately and with conviction however I do not know if he's 'civil' or just so overloaded with drive that he will bite you, me, or the above mentioned lamp post at the drop of a hat. However I do not consider him 'social' as he does not want to be touched, he won't come up to you and wag his tail, he will ignore you, move too fast and he will bite you. At what point does it switch from 'I have a shit ton of drive to bite and I will bite anything' to 'I'm civil'. Is that the same thing? :-k


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Dave Colborn said:


> so you and bob think that a dog being civil is genetic...hmmmm




I believe most dogs can be taught to bite. The dog that willingly bites is civil. Where the BIG difference comes to play is the willingness to stay with the bite/fight. 
Many dogs will nip as did the one GSD in the video. I believe that was a situation where the dog was cornered. When it had the chance it ran. Can that dog be trained to be a home or PPD? Not one I would put any confidence in for doing anything other then a distraction long enough to get armed. To much like the dog barking inside the fence. Chances are you walk in and the dog moves off. 
In this sense I look at a civil dog as a dog that would give a "punishing" bite with no training. The nipper shows me fear. Of course it can possibly be a dog with a natural bite inhibition/controlled bite.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Bob Scott said:


> I believe most dogs can be taught to bite. The dog that willingly bites is civil. Where the BIG difference comes to play is the willingness to stay with the bite/fight.
> Many dogs will nip as did the one GSD in the video. I believe that was a situation where the dog was cornered. When it had the chance it ran. Can that dog be trained to be a home or PPD? Not one I would put any confidence in for doing anything other then a distraction long enough to get armed. To much like the dog barking inside the fence. Chances are you walk in and the dog moves off.
> In this sense I look at a civil dog as a dog that would give a "punishing" bite with no training. The nipper shows me fear. Of course it can possibly be a dog with a natural bite inhibition/controlled bite.


So a civil dog has to be genetic and untrained? Where in the world of dogs would this ever occur?


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

georgia estes said:


> hmm I've wondered this too. I have a dog that has and will bite anyone and anything, passive or not, equipment or not, won't take the suit or sleeve as a reward, will drop it and bite the guy immediately and with conviction however I do not know if he's 'civil' or just so overloaded with drive that he will bite you, me, or the above mentioned lamp post at the drop of a hat. However I do not consider him 'social' as he does not want to be touched, he won't come up to you and wag his tail, he will ignore you, move too fast and he will bite you. At what point does it switch from 'I have a shit ton of drive to bite and I will bite anything' to 'I'm civil'. Is that the same thing? :-k


Sounds like a a dog with a low defensive threshold. Defense = Fight, Flight, or displacement. He is choosing to fight. 

Civil. sure. no equipment and biting.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Dave Colborn said:


> So a civil dog has to be genetic and untrained? Where in the world of dogs would this ever occur?



I think it's more natural for some dogs from pups on up to bite with no training. How is this not genetic? 
Pets, for the most part have that bred out of them because much of todays society "need" for calm, non agressive dogs that will put up with anyone under any situation. 
Working dog breeders (good ones) bust their buns to keep that quality (gene) in their dogs.
Did the good breeders such as Dick and Selena, get their dogs by accident or did they breed for the qualities their dogs have?!!! 
Many dogs can be trained to bite but some just need the desire to bite put under control with proper training.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Bob Scott said:


> I think it's more natural for some dogs from pups on up to bite with no training. How is this not genetic?
> Pets, for the most part have that bred out of them because much of todays society "need" for calm, non agressive dogs that will put up with anyone under any situation.
> Working dog breeders (good ones) bust their buns to keep that quality (gene) in their dogs.
> Did the good breeders such as Dick and Selena, get their dogs by accident or did they breed for the qualities their dogs have?!!!
> Many dogs can be trained to bite but some just need the desire to bite put under control with proper training.


My specific question was where in the world would a dog ever give a punishing bite without training... I woul think that is as hard to test as a "real" bite with equipment.

I understand some dogs are more predisposed to bite than others.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

what is civil?

if I pound on your front door, barge in and then confront you and/or your dog and he bites me, is that what we mean by civil?

Is civil dog judged on a reaction of defending himself or his territory or his owner?

or are we saying if I walk up to you sitting on a park bench reading a magazine and tell my dog to bite you, or allow him to bite you on his own, and he bites...

what is civil again?


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

i think by now civil has pretty well been defined, and a few different levels have been provided 

the Q i have is : is it desirable ?

since some people like to brag about it, and others downplay or hide it, but, the answer, (i hope), would still be yes, IF "civil" is needed for its job, or it's a serious sport dog and rarely taken in public, where it should be on lead, under control, and not allowed to interact with people it doesn't know. i also hope pet owners would understand that pets can be civil too; not all dogs bite from fear. some pets mellow with age; but not all 

- and i still feel i could get ANY dog on the planet to bite me in a few minutes if i really tried //lol//


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

rick smith said:


> *- and i still feel i could get ANY dog on the planet to bite me in a few minutes if i really tried //lol*//


due to physical limitations in training, I am not the best decoy around..but I have to agree with this statement.. except I would say almost not ANY. depending on what was done that is...I have owned super confident dogs that a guy physically threatening and trying to hurt to dog, where it took a dirty experienced guy more than a few minutes (abput 20 mintues) to get the dog to react..dog was double flanked...smiling and saying hi to the guy..dog was tough as nails...and everbodies pal, and felt almost zero pain, in they way most people try to pain test dogs anyways...or try to intimidate them...not so funny part was his littermate killed a woman..he however took whips, flanks, pinches, strikes, eyes, posture...all in stride...without reacting, but it was in a group setting in daylight, on neutral ground..

so IF I get bit, is the dog civil?

regardless if it take a minor threat and retreat building to get that bite?


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> due to physical limitations in training, I am not the best decoy around..but I have to agree with this statement.. except I would say almost not ANY. depending on what was done that is...I have owned super confident dogs that a guy physically threatening and trying to hurt to dog, where it took a dirty experienced guy more than a few minutes (abput 20 mintues) to get the dog to react..dog was double flanked...smiling and saying hi to the guy..dog was tough as nails...and everbodies pal, and felt almost zero pain, in they way most people try to pain test dogs anyways...or try to intimidate them...not so funny part was his littermate killed a woman..he however took whips, flanks, pinches, strikes, eyes, posture...all in stride...without reacting, but it was in a group setting in daylight, on neutral ground..
> 
> so IF I get bit, is the dog civil?
> 
> regardless if it take a minor threat and retreat building to get that bite?


No one has really defined civil yet.. that's the problem.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

Joby's Q: 
"so IF I get bit, is the dog civil?"
no, not by any means !! ... just being a bit sarcastic 
,,,,but if you fuk with a dog enuff, you sure might be able to make them civil 

was trying to say that a civil pet dog is a dog with a problem that needs work, not praise, and for sure not denial or management 
.... and that a lot of "working dogs" are also pets too 

just sayin civil dogs are confident but not necessarily friendly dogs that like to bite people no matter what they are wearing or waving, and often fight them after they bite 

how about mine ?? //lol//


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

rick smith said:


> Joby's Q:
> "so IF I get bit, is the dog civil?"
> no, not by any means !! ... just being a bit sarcastic
> ,,,,but if you fuk with a dog enuff, you sure might be able to make them civil
> ...


so civil dogs are confident? you sure?

I might be inclined to agree that a civil dog might "like" to bite someone....we might be getting closer here..


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

yep for me - to be civil it must be confident; other wise a fear biter, which is how you can get any old dog to bite humans ; take away the confidence, fear takes over and it either runs .... or bites 
... only when it learns to like it and gets its confidence back does it become civil to humans ... fear biters will always run first if that option is open
- don't we agree on that either ?? //lol//

you wanna know how to create a civil dog that didn't have it genetically ?
see above 
....or also "trained" using defense threshold terminology

maybe the next chapter will be :
can dogs become animal civil ?? //lol//
nope... we already got a term for that 
Vick could probably explain it well 

sorry...not much patience these days ....think i'll stop training dogs and just be a dog walker; then i can just listen to my Iphone music and not have a care in the world and still get paid


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## Dan Bowman (Nov 8, 2012)

In the simplest sense a civil or strong civil dog is one that will engage a man without the normal indicators associated with bitework being present, such as protective gear, whip or stick, or certain conventional decoy behavior/movement.

In a deeper sense a civil dog is one that understands intuitively, or has come to understand through agitation, that the man (and by this I mean the presence of the man or his energy of you want to get metaphysical) is the source of threat, and that to extinguish this threat the man must be destroyed. In the context of dogs that I assume we are all interested in, the dog would have to also feel that it's capable of destroying the man, and will probably derive satisfaction in doing so.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Dan Bowman said:


> In the simplest sense a civil or strong civil dog is one that will engage a man without the normal indicators associated with bitework being present, such as protective gear, whip or stick, or certain conventional decoy behavior/movement.
> 
> In a deeper sense a civil dog is one that understands intuitively, or has come to understand through agitation, that the man (and by this I mean the presence of the man or his energy of you want to get metaphysical) is the source of threat, and that to extinguish this threat the man must be destroyed. In the context of dogs that I assume we are all interested in, the dog would have to also feel that it's capable of destroying the man, and will probably derive satisfaction in doing so.


Deep. . . .and I like--especially the intuitive part because for me its instinctual instead of scenario taught or I prefer that the dog have it instinctively.

T


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Deep. . . .and I like--especially the intuitive part because for me its instinctual instead of scenario taught or I prefer that the dog have it instinctively.
> 
> T


so do most of us, we just add training on top of that.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Civil=Civilian...K-9s used in the '60s during the riots across America. :-k


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## Steve Estrada (Mar 6, 2011)

Howard Gaines III said:


> Civil=Civilian...K-9s used in the '60s during the riots across America. :-k


The 60's almost ruined as killed dog sports & if you watch some videos of that era you'll understand why;" misused"! I know it still happens with a much lesser degree. LE officers are much smarter & better trained than in some instances of the past. JMHO


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## Alison Grubb (Nov 18, 2009)

Dan Bowman said:


> In the simplest sense a civil or strong civil dog is one that will engage a man without the normal indicators associated with bitework being present, such as protective gear, whip or stick, or certain conventional decoy behavior/movement.
> 
> In a deeper sense a civil dog is one that understands intuitively, or has come to understand through agitation, that the man (and by this I mean the presence of the man or his energy of you want to get metaphysical) is the source of threat, and that to extinguish this threat the man must be destroyed. In the context of dogs that I assume we are all interested in, the dog would have to also feel that it's capable of destroying the man, and will probably derive satisfaction in doing so.


I think this is the best definition provided so far. I also happen to agree with it.

IMO civil has nothing to do with lack of agitation or threat. If I have a dog that interprets the mere presence of an non-threatening individual as worthy of an aggressive response (and I have had a dog like that) I become concerned about the overall stability of the animal. It's not surprising that that same dog demonstrated fear/nerve issues to me on a number of occasions so I think those things are at least correlated to one another. 

I do think that a civil dog will react with no equipment or cues that are being carried over from training. But I also think that in training, through watching the dog develop and grow, one can come to know or at least have an idea about whether or not dog is likely to have that civil edge. I have a dog that I posted a training video here of quite a while ago and in that discussion I expressed my (and my trainers' and decoys') opinion that the dog would bite for real. Months later the dog proved that I was right when I was harassed by a severely drunk or otherwise impaired man in my very dark front yard at 2:30 in the morning. Said dog can also go to bonfires, street fairs, hang out in a room full of people, etc and not act weird or try to bite anybody. That's where the intuition comes in I think. I'm not claiming that my dog is the perfect civil dog or anything, but to me he is an example of what has been discussed here.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Steve Estrada said:


> The 60's almost ruined as killed dog sports & if you watch some videos of that era you'll understand why;" misused"! I know it still happens with a much lesser degree. LE officers are much smarter & better trained than in some instances of the past. JMHO


 I have to agree Steve. And general working dog training has become *better* on all fronts. Think about the types of dogs which were imported then and the green as grass handlers who used them. Then add to this the 1960's training programs used in LE and the military. 

Training today is much better; dog sports are a sport, like martial arts. They have a different uses, playing fields, and legal standards for "Joe Six-Pack." This doesn't say that the venues are weak or worthless, I know some are, but how the dogs are used today makes the sport or PPD areas all the more of a TARGET for hate groups and the misguided people who might be focused on them!

The very reason each of us is a SELLSPERSON, to the general public and public officials, how we train and use our working dogs. :grin:


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