# Training video from 3-28-08



## Kevin Kinker (Dec 28, 2007)

Obedience and protection video's from this weekend training


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DWvOgUjqeV8


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SI3Rqzuj0F0


----------



## Bryan Colletti (Feb 16, 2007)

They look really good Kevin, very nice job. 

Bryan


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I'm going to be the devils advocate here and say what's wrong with this.
First and foremost, I personally would never use a small child as a part of any protection training.
Second. The dog was laying with his back to the child (watching someone for a cue?) up until the bad guy starts walking away with the child. 
JMHO!


----------



## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> I'm going to be the devils advocate here and say what's wrong with this.
> First and foremost, I personally would never use a small child as a part of any protection training.
> Second. The dog was laying with his back to the child (watching someone for a cue?) up until the bad guy starts walking away with the child.
> JMHO!


I agree with Bob. I know nothing about ppd or training I do however know a little bit about protection work. It looked to me like all the bites were offered except for the static and that looked rehearsed after the grip was made lots of pray was given and no threat or fight no pressure nada. 
This mite look good to MR and MRS Suburbia but were not a bunch of hay seeds here one smash over the head with a toaster and that dog would be gone.


----------



## Dennis Trzcinski (Jan 17, 2008)

Mike,
I guarantee you that if you hit this dog with a toaster he is not letting go. How do I know this because he has been hit over the head with several items to ensure that he does not let go. Also the dogs that I train are put under heavy pressure, more pressure than 90% of the working police k9 get in training. Also the dog attacked the subject in the park only after someone touches the child. The reason for this is because all the dogs have super obediance. As for feeding the the bite the problem in making a video is that it has to be made safe for the decoy and the child in this case. See the dog in this case is super clear and knows his job. Back to the decoy we chose to use a hidden sleeve to show that he will hit for real. The reason why he was "fed" the arm is because we did not want the dog to do a leg bite or back bite or inner arm bite where their was no protection. Now someone may say then use a bitesuit, then I would have someone say oh you are using a suit because the dog is equipment orientated. So basically when you try and show the dogs in a video you are damned if you do and damned if you dont.


----------



## Dennis Trzcinski (Jan 17, 2008)

Guys, 
Look the intention of the video is to get people thinking about what can be done with the dogs. So many people out their show videos of dogs on a field doing bitework. This video is for entertainment and to get potential clients too think. I will be the first to say that videos are very difficult to make, because they do look staged but how else do you keep everyone safe. I guarantee my clients that when they buy a dog from me that I show them that the dog does it. I go to their house at night and try and break in. I attack them in the park to have the dog protect. At Eisen Faust Kennels, I do real world training for the real world.
After all this I hope you guys enjoyed the videos atleast.


----------



## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Like I said this mite look great to MR & MRS Joe Suburbia. If your going to try impress some working dog trainers get a suit, some gardening tools, and canvas tarp and lets see someone who knows how to fight a dog show us what you got. The little skit you showed doesnt do it our Rat Terrier looks as nasty in our car your dog. 
I'm not saying your dogs cant or are not capable. Your video really didn't demonstrate much.


----------



## Bryan Colletti (Feb 16, 2007)

This is always the major problem with any Forum. There are those who chose to brave the tide and show themselves, their training, and their dogs. It is all out there for the world to see. Then there are those who sit home and critique. You can only show so much in a video. 

My guess is, Mike can only be impressed if the dog was shot at, blown up, skinned alive and then had the guts to bite your helper who would have to only wear a speedo. 

His post just reeks of macho nonsense. Be constructive, show us a video of what you like to see. Please show that test you find so compelling with the rakes, shovels, pitch forks and tarps. I will include them into all my future videos. I will also teach my dogs to lay seed too.

I eagerly await your video. Cant wait to see "The attack of the killer garden equipment guy". 

>>>>>.On a personal note, I like the video, as it shows the nerve strength of a dog. I mean really, how PREY not pray drive can be show in a tiny kitchen. Having known the dog as well, I can speak of his very diserible temperament and foundation training.

Regards,
Mr. Suburbia

Dont be shy now boys, lets see your videos.


----------



## Kevin Kinker (Dec 28, 2007)

I feel no need to respond to Mike because a phase in his first post shows everyone his confusion!!!!







Mike Scheiber said:


> I know nothing about ppd or training I do however know a little bit about protection work.


----------



## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

OK Brian in making my point got I got carried away but he went through all this elaborate skit but didnt show the dog I see nothing to gauge the dog. 
So you know the dog I don't Hell I'm a sport guy I really don't know anything about ppd this is what I see but. 
If a unbiased person would like to assess my assessment I would welcome it.


----------



## Mark Horne (Oct 12, 2006)

It's an incredible challenge to train an animal to make decisions on when to use force and how much to use, and distinguish between a threat and coincidence.

I've worked alongside professional bodyguards who would struggle with these decisions.

Mark


----------



## Bryan Colletti (Feb 16, 2007)

Mark makes a few very good points.

Now Mike: Here is my thoughts on how to evaluate a video someone on this forum posts. I'm not the moderator here, however, your first email was just plain silly. Folks who are brave enough on this list to post a video of their dogs and trainers, I respect a ton. You really leave yourself {your ass} out there. Honestly, there is only so much you can show on video's. 

I would much prefer a question about the dogs character, if there is something you have not seen in the video.

Do you really expect a person to smash his dog over the head with a toaster for your personal enjoyment? I imagine the video might be sent to Law Enforcement for animal cruelity. The best a person can show in a video like that one is first off, character. Is the dog stable and not acting nervous or ancy. YES HE IS QUITE STABLE. Does the dog committ wisely and with full confidence? YES no hesitation. Do you hear or see any signs of a lack of confidence or weakness, even from your sport world exposure? I will tell you this, this particular dog can excell in any sport. The fact is, his character and limitless training ability offers far more for a trainer than just a sport field. It is not much of a surprise given his pedigree.

I have had so many internet dog folks ask me to video tape this and that, only because I do make videos from time to time. Well, my answer is, if you want to pay for production costs of a video, I will happily make them if the request is reasonable. However, I know what I am looking at and looking for, and can see alot in a video, more so than the average nut. I can tell you this dog has no handler issues, he simply never asks questions, never turns around to ask if it is ok to do what he just did. He explodes into a bite. Is this dog ideal for everyone or every family. No but there are certainly needs for dogs highly trained and socialized like him. 

In my opinion, sport world is NO longer a test of character, but just an opening chapter into a dogs book of character. Because there is hardly a sport out there that tests for this sort of thing anymore.

I will also provide this little diddy for you. I have been lucky enough to see, handle and train some real true nasty dogs in my day. Many of which a toaster or rake over the head is nothing. However, I would not feel comfortable with a child around these dogs. In a nutshell this dog has a few very special qualities.

Good day and happy training Mike,

Bryan


----------



## Dennis Trzcinski (Jan 17, 2008)

Mike,
This is the problem with someone who does sport dogs not PPD dogs. Any dog can be taught to show aggression in a car, and I believe that your terrier does show more aggression. But consider this If I train a 80# shepherd to show that much aggression in an $100,000 mercedes, what do you think the car will look like after one week. Now the other side is this how well will your terrier protect you and your vehicle!!!!!Regarding your critique about the garden tools and tarps.....Once again consider this, the dog in the video has endured a lot of pressure, now can I say that I took a rake, or pitch fork to him and the answer would be this NO. I will tell you why this male against an intruder will give your family enough time to get out of the house, enough time to call the police, and enough time to get your gun. If the dog is killed and the family is safe then was it worth it!!!!!! Now can I take a rake to this dog and test him, yes but what good is a dog to me or a potential client if he is dead or missing an eye just to prove training!!!!. I stand behind my dogs 100%, I will not sell a dog that I would not trust in my home protecting my wife and kids.


----------



## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Dennis Trzcinski said:


> Mike,
> This is the problem with someone who does sport dogs not PPD dogs. Any dog can be taught to show aggression in a car, and I believe that your terrier does show more aggression. But consider this If I train a 80# shepherd to show that much aggression in an $100,000 mercedes, what do you think the car will look like after one week. Now the other side is this how well will your terrier protect you and your vehicle!!!!!Regarding your critique about the garden tools and tarps.....Once again consider this, the dog in the video has endured a lot of pressure, now can I say that I took a rake, or pitch fork to him and the answer would be this NO. I will tell you why this male against an intruder will give your family enough time to get out of the house, enough time to call the police, and enough time to get your gun. If the dog is killed and the family is safe then was it worth it!!!!!! Now can I take a rake to this dog and test him, yes but what good is a dog to me or a potential client if he is dead or missing an eye just to prove training!!!!. I stand behind my dogs 100%, I will not sell a dog that I would not trust in my home protecting my wife and kids.


First I will apologize for my untactful way I responded. I probably would not have responded at all if the promotional stuff would have not been added to the video. You all may know what this dog is all about I don't. Your not seeing it from my point of view. I see someone passing off a dog as a ppd doing what I would consider some simple rehearsed skits. 
Now what I would consider exhibiting the dog and his character would be some muzzle work. Give the dog some fight from the bad guy also let the dog exhibit some fight show what he is really made of. Put on a suit and fight the dog do some environmental stuff drag him through the swing set or down the slide grab some sand or rocks throw it act like someone trying to fight him off.
I stand behind my assessment I see nothing but some guys playing around with a dog that bites passing it off as ppd.


----------



## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

"I stand behind my assessment I see nothing but some guys playing around with a dog that bites passing it off as ppd."


I've never seen a full on PPD doing their job, but I would like you to post a video that you believe to be a true representation of how they should perform.


----------



## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> "I stand behind my assessment I see nothing but some guys playing around with a dog that bites passing it off as ppd."
> 
> 
> I've never seen a full on PPD doing their job, but I would like you to post a video that you believe to be a true representation of how they should perform.


Come on you quote the last sentence in my post NO I don't have any video I tried to give some examples what may offer some different dimensions of the dog than what was presented on the video. 
Is my mention of being a sport guy really throwing every one of you off as to what my perception is of the video. 
OK maybe someone else that doesnt know this dog or the trainer's could give a better and less abrasive assessment of the video. I don't think I can be this far off the mark on my assessment of the video I rechecked my post and I'm not using Japanese translation eather.


----------



## Bryan Colletti (Feb 16, 2007)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oj1xTVcysVo

Sato facing a true threatening decoy and using a muzzle 


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6TWzvsZQ6KM

Sato doing some Schutzhund work.


For God Sake's Mike, it is just a video of a dog, if you dont like, no big deal.

I appreciate your thoughts, thanks.
Bryan


----------



## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Bryan For God Sake's Mike said:


> Thank you for posting the first video something like this is what I was talking about and trying to explain. Again thank you I was looking for away out of this thread I stuck my nose where it doesn't belong. I'm out


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I was the first to respond to the video. 
I'll stand by my comment about never using a small child in bite training/demo.
Just an observation. Different people will train in different ways. 
I would not use children in any form of bite training.


----------



## Alegria Cebreco (Jul 25, 2007)

Bob, what about families who have children. I would want everyone to fully understand and be comfortable around the dog. Know what it is capable of ect. I wouldnt consider this "training" (as I agree children can get hurt in the process of _training_ a dog to bite) but more so testing. The dog obviously has lots of self-control and its not like he's never seen a sleeve, or in the step of drive/ grip building. JMO


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Algeria, I would never leave any child alone with a strong dog. Hardly any dog for that matter. My grandkids and my GSDs get along fantastically but I would still never leave them alone together. My JRT is a no brainer. The kids would get bit. For that reason a protection dog shouldn't be left in a position to make any decision about a child's safety. I don't care what level of training it's had. That's iressponsible on the parents part.


----------



## Matthew Grubb (Nov 16, 2007)

Mark Horne said:


> It's an incredible challenge to train an animal to make decisions on when to use force and how much to use, and distinguish between a threat and coincidence.


 
If you are teaching a dog to bite someone any time they touch a child, there is no decision making or differentiating between threat and coincidence. You are teaching contact=bite…. Fine until another kid comes to ride the slide board at the park.


----------



## Kevin Kinker (Dec 28, 2007)

I can not beleive all the responses for a video!!! I beleive all the responses are coming about this video because so many people do not train for the *real world* such as Eisen Faust Kennels. As Dennis had said most other videos are on the field or in a very private setting. 

As for using the child I think it is vital in PPD work especially if the dog is going to a family. Such scenarios are never played out in training unless the dog is 110%. The dog in this video lives with three kids 1,4,9 yrs old. 

The best part is the dog performed the job with 110% sucess and we never had to do any run throughs or re-takes. One shot one video 
( that is sucess )

All E.F dogs will protect with 110% confidence and are 110% under contol. If you don't have that level of control than all you have is a dog that bites. 

I think the people that are so against this video just don't have the level of confidence and contol in their dogs as they see here. 

*REAL WORLD TRAINING FOR REAL DOGS*

Just my two cents


----------



## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Kevin Kinker said:


> If you don't have that level of control than all you have is a dog that bites.


So, would this be a bad thing for a "protection dog" ??


----------



## Kevin Kinker (Dec 28, 2007)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> So, would this be a bad thing for a "protection dog" ??


To answer this question I would consider such dog a guard dog!! This would what you would find in a junk yard, car lot security,ect..


----------

