# working dog+young kids+biting?



## Ryan Pulliam (Oct 11, 2010)

I have a 10 week old American Bandogge puppy that will be doing PSA. He likes to bite anything and everything especially when it moves. My 3 years old daughter loves him to death and always wants to play with him. The first few minutes are fine then he starts to get mouthy and I have to put him up. My fiance give me a hard time worried about her, I do not let him bite her but he is always on lead when playing with her and I am always right there but it is very very hard. How do you guys with kids or not handle this? I know the first solution is just to keep the two apart but thats hard with a young child.


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

I ran a daycare and had up to 4 dogs. It's not hard at all. People just seem to think dogs and kids should run together. Once you realize this isn't the case, you will put your dog in a kennel and keep both of them safe from eachother.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Keeping them apart is not really a good option. Being in the same household says there will be a time that they come into contact regardless of how carefull you are. Teach him biting your daughter is not an option ever, just like chewing the leg off the dining room table is not an option anytime. 10 weeks is a great time to do this.


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## Ryan Pulliam (Oct 11, 2010)

thats what i do know, just looking for another solution


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

I start my young pups in the house, once they get too big or exuberant they live outside until they are fully trained, mature and calm enough to finish their hosehold rules work. 

It all comes down to what you want out of the dog. If you aren't worried about smacking the drive out of him, by all means, keep him on the bed with you. If you want a working dog, your best bet is to treat him like a dog, not a second child or play pal for your kids. 

Some dogs can be raised inside with all of the restrictions that may entail, and work fine as adults but the majority aren't that forgiving. You will most likely crush some part of that dog, trying to make him gentle enough for a 3 year old to play with. In another few months, your pup will be bowlling for babies, unless he is really soft, shy or lazy.


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

apart from teaching your dog to not bite your daughter, teach your daughter the correct way to play with the dog ? its not a one way street to begin with...and be prepared for your daughter to get a few nips in the future...its a pup and it needs to learn not to bite....its a hit and miss situation in the begining....i agree with Don that you should teach the dog not to bite but there is always the danger that it wil happen...how much are you willing to risk ?

Me ? id keep the dog in the kennel and the kid in the house untill both are old and wise enough to be together...


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## Tommy O'Hanlon (Feb 21, 2008)

I'm with Michelle and Alice on this one


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## Ryan Pulliam (Oct 11, 2010)

He is not shy or soft but somewhat lazy until something is thrown or he sees the rage. But I will keep them apart for the most part. Thanks for the advice


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

I hope some of you did not thinki I was saying not to keep the dog and child separated. Of course, but they hyave to be around each ither to train the dog. I was saying toltally separating them is not a good idea.


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Ryan Pulliam said:


> thats what i do know, just looking for another solution



what solution do you want?


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Michelle Kehoe said:


> I start my young pups in the house, once they get too big or exuberant they live outside until they are fully trained, mature and calm enough to finish their hosehold rules work.
> 
> It all comes down to what you want out of the dog. If you aren't worried about smacking the drive out of him, by all means, keep him on the bed with you. If you want a working dog, your best bet is to treat him like a dog, not a second child or play pal for your kids.
> 
> Some dogs can be raised inside with all of the restrictions that may entail, and work fine as adults but the majority aren't that forgiving. You will most likely crush some part of that dog, trying to make him gentle enough for a 3 year old to play with. In another few months, your pup will be bowlling for babies, unless he is really soft, shy or lazy.


But if you are worried that you'll smack or crush the drive out of a dog for teaching him house rules and that teeth stay off the youngens, is that a dog you really want for work anyways...? :-k



Don Turnipseed said:


> I hope some of you did not thinki I was saying not to keep the dog and child separated. Of course, but they hyave to be around each ither to train the dog. I was saying toltally separating them is not a good idea.


Knowing kids and dogs, they will likely interact at some point, whether you want them to or not. Might as well set the ground rules ASAP, but with close supervision always. Call the presses, but I do agree with Don on this one. ;-)


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## Mike Lauer (Jul 26, 2009)

they can be taught the difference, my dog can bite decoys, but if he bites me he gets his ass kicked
it doesnt ruin his drive to bite decoys.

and its not hard to keep them apart, my dogs are never with my kids, ever
i know people with 4 dogs, all indoor dogs and none of them can be out together

its only difficult if you dont want to do it


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## Ryan Pulliam (Oct 11, 2010)

Their interaction will stay controlled and he bites me too. I have raised and trained many dogs just never a working dog and i am use to ending the biting in the beginning ASAP. I am just told to redirect the biting with a toy and not tell him no. This is new to me. But sometimes I can not even walk him because he is going after my legs and shoes none stop. I have put no training on him because I am told to let him be a pup till he is at least six months old.


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## Adi Ibrahimbegovic (Nov 21, 2008)

Well, there is training and then there is manners. Totaly different things.

I have a 4 year old boy and a working dog. They grew up together.

Well, kinda.

The dog was an outside dog for the most part until he was 15 months old and all the rules were firmly established.

I'd rather he demolished the lawn furniture (yes, he did), or water hoses (yes, he did that too), or chopped off the handle of my shovel (a few of them) etc... etc... then bruise a 2 year old kid.

It is a hard work, though, unless you really do pay attention and adjust your lifestyle to it.

The puppy will grow, so will the kid, and soon enough, this will all be a non issue, but to get there, yes, a bit of work is required.

It is not a one way street, teaching the dog manners is fine, but the kid needs to learn how to properly play with the dog too. Easier to keep them separate, thoguh for the most part and watch all interactions like a hawk.

Like you said, the first few minutes are fine. Well, that should be all you give them daily, so all they know is "fine", nothing that got out of control that required intervention.

Good, smart dogs learn to adapt, and he will grow relatively fast.

House manners have nothing to do with the work he will deal with later on, that's training, school, workplace. This is living with the pack.

Best of luck.



Ryan Pulliam said:


> Their interaction will stay controlled and he bites me too. I have raised and trained many dogs just never a working dog and i am use to ending the biting in the beginning ASAP. I am just told to redirect the biting with a toy and not tell him no. This is new to me. But sometimes I can not even walk him because he is going after my legs and shoes none stop. I have put no training on him because I am told to let him be a pup till he is at least six months old.


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Redirection is fine in some instances, but with a child....it would be a "stop that shit and never do it again" correction in my house. 
Of course teaching kids the "rules" of interacting with the dog is really important too.


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

yeah i would slap it out of them too.but i think letting the dog be fed by the child could help as long as the dog already knows how to behave for food(no jumping at the feeder being patient gets the reward)with your observation and if the dog gets out of line jam him


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> But if you are worried that you'll smack or crush the drive out of a dog for teaching him house rules and that teeth stay off the youngens, is that a dog you really want for work anyways...? :-k
> 
> No it's not Maren. But my type of dog and someone elses type of dog are 2 seperate issues. We aren't worrying about my dog, it's his pup. Aren't we talking bulldog here? Right there he is already working a handycap. My main issues are, I keep a nice house and my furniture isn't brandnew, but it still looks that way and I mean to keep it that way for as long as possible.
> 
> ...


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## Ashley Campbell (Jun 21, 2009)

Carol Boche said:


> Redirection is fine in some instances, but with a child....it would be a "stop that shit and never do it again" correction in my house.
> Of course teaching kids the "rules" of interacting with the dog is really important too.


^ This.
When I first got my GSD, my oldest child was 5ish. He was running in the house and she tackled him and nipped him in the shoulder.

Let's just say, she's NEVER done it again and that day I learned I can scruff a 40 lb dog with 1 arm - that's the only time I've ever really roughed her up and it got my point across. Granted, she's not good for work but I think that was a lost cause prior to having a "I nipped the kid and I met Jesus that day" moment.

My kids are now 7, 4, and 2. We have a new pup coming in December. The kids are good with the older dog and have learned what you can and can't do. Such as playing fetch is ok with the dog, trying to rip it's bat ears off is not ok - etc. I still supervise them closely when playing outside, indoors the dog is always right next to me anyway. The same will go for the puppy, supervised interaction at all times - saves the pup from being accidentally hurt by a well-meaning (or not) child, and saves the pup from getting a "come to Jesus" moment for screwing up with the kid.

They both kind of learn from this, such as if the kids get too rough and end up in time out for not playing nice, or the puppy ends up in time out for playing too rough with the kids.

ETA: Forgot to mention. Supervised interaction at all times means either when I'm not watching the pup it's in a crate/kennel, or tethered to me so I know what it's up to, the latter being more for house breaking than anything, normally the crate is the best option for me.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Adi said;
"Well, there is training and then there is manners. Totaly different things."

Big DITTO!


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> Adi said;
> "Well, there is training and then there is manners. Totaly different things."
> 
> Big DITTO!


And you achieve good manners how??? The tooth fairy?? It all requires training. One type of training is "boy were having fun". The other type of training isn't so fun until it is over and you and everyone else can enjoy having them around.


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Ryan Pulliam said:


> Their interaction will stay controlled and he bites me too. I have raised and trained many dogs just never a working dog and i am use to ending the biting in the beginning ASAP. I am just told to redirect the biting with a toy and not tell him no. This is new to me. But sometimes I can not even walk him because he is going after my legs and shoes none stop. I have put no training on him because I am told to let him be a pup till he is at least six months old.



letting the dog be a pup does not mean " feel free to bite the shit out of me and everyone/everything else "

if it is to be a workingdog as you call it then it will learn the difference between work and home....I let my dogs be pups and let them grow to a certain point, bite me ? ill kick your ass six weeks from sunday! redirect the biting ? what a crock! You dont want him to bite at the house and its that SIMPLE....teach him biting at the house and biting in you and your kids is a very big NO NO......the house is not work and at some point you will start to teach him to bite as a working dog and trust me if the dog has any sort of backbone he will understand the difference between the 2....with redirecting the bite you are not teaching him not to bite your kids or yourself, your just teaching him to bite something else, wanna take that risk with your 3 year old ? i doubt it! put a stop to it and use your head before your dog decides that he wants to redirect its bite to your 3 year olds arm or face.


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## Adi Ibrahimbegovic (Nov 21, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> And you achieve good manners how??? The tooth fairy?? It all requires training. One type of training is "boy were having fun". The other type of training isn't so fun until it is over and you and everyone else can enjoy having them around.


while you are right "in general" with your statement, you're splitting hairs now. you know what I meant. yes, teaching manners is kind of training as well, but manners around the house and training to retrieve the dumbell, track for articles and bite and out the sleeve ARE totaly different things and kinds of training.

I never liked the tooth fairy or those types of "fantasy" characters much, on an unrelated point.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

I do see your point Adi, although I see it all as training. I think what is different, is that one type of training is very positive, the other is mostly negative. One is getting the dog to do new stuff, the other is getting the dog not to do natural stuff. Also I was responding to Bob's post which makes it sound oversimplified.


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## Al Curbow (Mar 27, 2006)

It's training. This dog knows the deal http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YM8CvsRvIMI

I always shake my head when people can't teach simple manners, lol. I also know and see a nice PSD that is a part of the family when not at work. If you have a dog that will eat little kids kill it. If you can't train it simple manners and how to act get help or get rid of the dog. JMO


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Thanks for posting that clip Al. I was actually beginning to believe some of these high drive Mals and DS's couldn't be taught behave in the house. I have heard it so many times.


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## Michael Swetz (Jul 27, 2009)

Not to derail the thread, but I was curious. Which kennel did you get your dog from? I've seen the term "American Bandogge" applied to a ton of different mixes, what is yours?


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Alice Bezemer said:


> letting the dog be a pup does not mean " feel free to bite the shit out of me and everyone/everything else "
> 
> if it is to be a workingdog as you call it then it will learn the difference between work and home....I let my dogs be pups and let them grow to a certain point, bite me ? ill kick your ass six weeks from sunday! redirect the biting ? what a crock! You dont want him to bite at the house and its that SIMPLE....teach him biting at the house and biting in you and your kids is a very big NO NO......the house is not work and at some point you will start to teach him to bite as a working dog and trust me if the dog has any sort of backbone he will understand the difference between the 2....with redirecting the bite you are not teaching him not to bite your kids or yourself, your just teaching him to bite something else, wanna take that risk with your 3 year old ? i doubt it! put a stop to it and use your head before your dog decides that he wants to redirect its bite to your 3 year olds arm or face.


I agree here I have a 4 year old that has been raised around dutch line dogs titled to pups in the KNPV. Its important to teach the dog work is work and home is home as well you need to educate your children as well as your dog whats right and wrong. Yea there might be a little nip nip here and there and yea you kid migh end up face down in the dirt from them jumping on him but it all works itself out. I also have another baby coming on april third and we will teach her the same way we taught our son. And will re-teach the introduction to the dogs like we did with my son. Also let me say this I don't advise you to just let these type of dogs and children run together un supervised at all times, accidents can happen thats why you need to teach your kids and the dogs respect for each other as well as make sure your the boss. JMO


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## andreas broqvist (Jun 2, 2009)

A bulldog is not a mali. They do not have thos kind of rections and they are mutsh slower. So just teatsh the dog not to bite tha child and thats that.

Difrent lines difrent types. My oldes wuld nead to grow up with a kind to play nice. She plays with kids like she does with adults.
My other dog is greta with kids from the get go. Never neaded to teatsh her, She just tones everything down around kinds. I do not know I she wuld du this as a pup, Proobly not. But they get smarter as the gets older  

Im with Don. Do not separate them, let them grow up togetehr then you will trust you dog around your kids, Ofcaus you shuld not let them be alone. But let the be together.


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## Ryan Pulliam (Oct 11, 2010)

Michael Swetz said:


> Not to derail the thread, but I was curious. Which kennel did you get your dog from? I've seen the term "American Bandogge" applied to a ton of different mixes, what is yours?


He is out of a small breeder in VA, he was a gift from my fiance. She new I wanted an American Bandogge. They crossed Presa Canarios with true APBT's. I originally was interested in the Swinford type but I am very very happy with him. I mete with my PSA club and he was tested by our trainer (Greg Williams) who has titled many dogs I,II,III in PSA. He shows great potential for the breed.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Ryan Pulliam said:


> He is out of a small breeder in VA, he was a gift from my fiance. She new I wanted an American Bandogge. They crossed Presa Canarios with true APBT's. I originally was interested in the Swinford type but I am very very happy with him. I mete with my PSA club and he was tested by our trainer (Greg Williams) who has titled many dogs I,II,III in PSA. He shows great potential for the breed.


For the breed??? What exactly do you take that to mean Ryan?


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## Ryan Pulliam (Oct 11, 2010)

Slower to mature, he shows as much drive and nerve as I have seen in GSD, Mali, and dutches. He just is not as wired as I have seen so of them and I like that. He is fairly calm in the house.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Sounds good then. :wink:


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## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

I'd never keep a kid and a dog in the house together.
Always keep yr kids separated from the dogs and there won't be a problem.


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## Ashley Campbell (Jun 21, 2009)

Martine Loots said:


> I'd never keep a kid and a dog in the house together.
> Always keep yr kids separated from the dogs and there won't be a problem.


Yeah, until the toddler walks out and unlocks the kennel and the dog has never been around it...

I believe it's much better that kids and dogs have a mutual respect for each other, rather than keeping them separated for life. Otherwise, it only takes 1 minor mistake (even as fast as a bathroom break) for a toddler to be severely injured and the dog in a world of shit because it was never allowed around kids.


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## Ryan Pulliam (Oct 11, 2010)

just took the pup for a walk and he was tearing up my hands and ankles so I decided, this is it. I had to jack him up multiple times and pin him down and he got the message for the most part. He seamed to have a new level of respect for me. I know it will not be the last time it will happen but since I have children and they must get along, and my fiance will not tolerate one mistake I have decided he has to learn some manners. After an hr out on the trail I brought him back to the house and pulled out his rag, he was all over it like normal just as intense as before. So I feel a hard dog with a lot of drive will not be deterred by teaching what he can and can't bite. At one point he went to bite my pants and stopped himself and bite a hanging tree limb. Redirecting only goes but so far may work in some dogs but not much for him, so he is learning manners.


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

niceto hear your having good results early and your doing the right thing teaching him what he can and cant bite it might even build more drive for his favourite toys to let out his drive


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Brad brings up a good point sometimes frustration in the dog can be your friend. Sometimes we do nothing but frustration work and never let them get a bite, if they do its alright but not getting it and when they do they bite that son of bitch hard and full and don't want to give it up. Just food for thought. Got to be careful though and now how to read your dog. To much can also become your enemy and the dog could take a piece of you for getting pissed to, so reading your pup / dog is a big importance in raising and imprinting a pup.


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## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

Ashley Campbell said:


> Yeah, until the toddler walks out and unlocks the kennel and the dog has never been around it...
> 
> I believe it's much better that kids and dogs have a mutual respect for each other, rather than keeping them separated for life. Otherwise, it only takes 1 minor mistake (even as fast as a bathroom break) for a toddler to be severely injured and the dog in a world of shit because it was never allowed around kids.


If this kind of accident is possible, this means there is something wrong with yr facilities. There should always be an extra barrier (locked fence) so kids can never get to the dogs, certainly if you have dangerous dogs.
I don't have kids but that is the way I see it being done with friends of outs who do.


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Ashley Campbell said:


> Yeah, until the toddler walks out and unlocks the kennel and the dog has never been around it...



Ok sorry to be a smartass here but thats why we can padlock the kennel! I dont have kids but even i have padlocks on my kennel in order to prevent this kind of thing from happening....

as for bathroombreaks while dog and child are playing ? no way! dog away and thats that....just because we feel its safe since they always play so nice and he such a trustworthy dog dont mean he wont bite even if in play...not a risk im willing to take

I do agree tho that seperating dog and child is not something desirable...they should be taught to interact with eachother and should learn mutual respect towards eachother. But at a very young age I would be extremely carefull on how to proceed in this since mostly the child often doesnt exactly understand what is being expected....


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

ok, I have a toddler (and a baby) and (at this moment) 15 dogs (2 from Carmen staying here while she's in the US) and 4 puppies.Dennis isn't allowed to go near the dogs. The dog runs are double secured. I have fencing with an extra door before the dog runs.If Dennis is outside it is always with me or Dick with him. I took him with me walking the dogs for the first time 2 wks ago (now 22 mo old), he on my arm, dogs loose and only with the dogs I know my ob on them is good enough (so not with Spike, Bor and Wibo). I take much precautions just to be safe, the interactions will increase when Dennis gets older but under supervision all of the time.


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## Ben Colbert (Mar 9, 2010)

Ryan Pulliam said:


> Slower to mature, he shows as much drive and nerve as I have seen in GSD, Mali, and dutches. He just is not as wired as I have seen so of them and I like that. He is fairly calm in the house.


I'd love to see a video of your dog.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

I do not have kids but I have worked with kids doing childcare for over 8 years for infants all the way up to 10 year olds. No matter the safeguards, just like guns, accidents can happen and kennels can be left unlocked, kennel panels or crates can fail, 3 and 4 year olds can get out of bed, and so on. Kind of like a kid accidentally finding their parent's gun, I suspect having them at least somewhat "acquainted" with the ground rules before such a meeting may take place, it would be best so they don't catch each other unawares. It'd probably best if the dog saw the child and thought, "oh yeah, this is that little human creature like thing that is not very good at petting me, but my master wants me to be extra gentle with...okay, no biggie" rather than "holy crap, I finally get to chase and bite that little prey like thing I've only seen through the fence, YES!"


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## Ashley Campbell (Jun 21, 2009)

Exactly that. My 4 year old climbed out of bed and over my 6 ft privacy fence, into my neighbors yard.
At 11 PM - I was in bed already; this was maybe 1-2 weeks ago.

They have 2 pitbulls, that are totally NOT friendly with adults they don't know, they frequently try to tear into me through the fence and have destroyed my fence in between the yards. Luckily, they were ok with my small child because the neighbor has children about the same age as well and the dogs are used to little kids. Even the neighbor, who brought my son back said he had no idea how he'd managed to get through the fence. 

You can't be everywhere at one time with kids, and they are fast! You might think "well if parents were watching their kids" but like with my kid, are you going to stand vigil all night long to make sure they stay in bed? I have to sleep sometime! Better the dog be acquainted and cool with the kid than to have never known it and rip it's face off.


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## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> It'd probably best if the dog saw the child and thought, "oh yeah, this is that little human creature like thing that is not very good at petting me, but my master wants me to be extra gentle with...okay, no biggie" rather than "holy crap, I finally get to chase and bite that little prey like thing I've only seen through the fence, YES!"


Depends on what kind of dogs you have. Our dogs are very 1 handler dogs and not friendly with anybody else so no question to bring them together with kids. 



Ashley Campbell said:


> You can't be everywhere at one time with kids, and they are fast! You might think "well if parents were watching their kids" but like with my kid, are you going to stand vigil all night long to make sure they stay in bed? I have to sleep sometime! Better the dog be acquainted and cool with the kid than to have never known it and rip it's face off.


Over here, like at Selena's, no way kids can get to the dogs. Double locked fence to get to the kennel area and locked kennels. So even if yr kid would have climbed out of bed, he wouldn't have managed to get to the dogs. 
So to answer yr question, no I wouldn't stay vigil all night long but no need for that since he couldn't get to the dogs anyway.
If you have a dominant type of dog it's not possible to get them acquainted and cool with kids without serious risk of accidents


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Ashley Campbell said:


> Exactly that. My 4 year old climbed out of bed and over my 6 ft privacy fence, into my neighbors yard.
> At 11 PM - I was in bed already; this was maybe 1-2 weeks ago.
> 
> They have 2 pitbulls, that are totally NOT friendly with adults they don't know, they frequently try to tear into me through the fence and have destroyed my fence in between the yards. Luckily, they were ok with my small child because the neighbor has children about the same age as well and the dogs are used to little kids. Even the neighbor, who brought my son back said he had no idea how he'd managed to get through the fence.
> ...


Ashley, set a lot of rat traps on the floor around your 4yr old's bed. When he gets up the noise will wake you up so it can't happen again. :grin:


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## Ashley Campbell (Jun 21, 2009)

Martine Loots said:


> If you have a dominant type of dog it's not possible to get them acquainted and cool with kids without serious risk of accidents


If you have a dog that is that "dominant" and you have children, and there is no way they can safely co-exist - you don't get or keep a dog like that if you're smart. You need to be prepared for accidents like that, and I wouldn't want to just hope that the dog isn't going to kill my child if the dog or kid escapes at 2 AM. So I'd go as far as to say if you have a dog that is a danger to children, either don't have children or don't have the dog - you think about your kids welfare first.

I don't care if they are locked down like Alcatraz, little kids can get into/out of ANYTHING. He had to have climbed OVER my fence, as I have padlocks on the gate and no keys for them anymore. How did he get out? He opened a window on the lower floor, popped a screen off of it, and climbed out, into the back yard, climbed over the privacy fence, and managed to get into the neighbors house.

Just an example of things you would never think a kid could do, but they shock and amaze you. I have tons of stories with that same kid, he's my terror and proof every day that "child proof" means nothing and adult proof means even less. Just proof for all of those that want this nasty "guard" dog in their yard and think a 6 ft fence is going to cut it - it's not.


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

:-#

Let's say I will agree to disagree with you Ashley


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## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

Ashley Campbell said:


> If you have a dog that is that "dominant" and you have children, and there is no way they can safely co-exist - you don't get or keep a dog like that if you're smart.


I know a lot of dominant alpha type of dogs. I've known them for many years and I haven't seen a single one that could be trusted around kids (I mean "really" trusted here and that isn't the same as "in control").
Nevertheless most of these people also have or had kids and they perfectly managed to keep them separarted. Haven't seen one single accident in all those years.
Accidents mostly happen if you start experimenting with kids & dogs co-existing together.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

I am going to disagree with Ashey also. Because a dog is aggressive in no way make it dominate.. My males are extremely dominate and anyones kid can go in the yards with any them unsupervised. I might agree with the term aggressive, territorial or any number of other terms but dominate isn't one of them.


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Martine Loots said:


> I know a lot of dominant alpha type of dogs. I've known them for many years and I haven't seen a single one that could be trusted around kids (I mean "really" trusted here and that isn't the same as "in control").
> Nevertheless most of these people also have or had kids and they perfectly managed to keep them separarted. Haven't seen one single accident in all those years.
> Accidents mostly happen if you start experimenting with kids & dogs co-existing together.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Martine Loots said:


> I know a lot of dominant alpha type of dogs. I've known them for many years and I haven't seen a single one that could be trusted around kids (I mean "really" trusted here and that isn't the same as "in control").
> Nevertheless most of these people also have or had kids and they perfectly managed to keep them separarted. Haven't seen one single accident in all those years.
> Accidents mostly happen if you start experimenting with kids & dogs co-existing together.


Very true I was raised with those types of dogs at the property with my parents and my son is 4 years old now and has yet to have a accident, and the one on the way will learn as well to who is and what is exceptable depending on the dog. Theres some that just like you said can't be trusted but are good dogs worth having and then theres some that are alright with direct control. But know reason not to have a good dog thats serious because you have children. Both are possible and both do happen and if theres a fal up and someone gets hurt its do to negligence of the parents / owners of the household and kennel.


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## Ashley Campbell (Jun 21, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> I am going to disagree with Ashey also. Because a dog is aggressive in no way make it dominate.. My males are extremely dominate and anyones kid can go in the yards with any them unsupervised. I might agree with the term aggressive, territorial or any number of other terms but dominate isn't one of them.



Disagree all you like, "dominant" was Martine's term, not mine - hence the quotation marks. Keep in mind, in the US, a dog that is dangerous to a child or can be constituted as such living in a home with children, can be charges for child endangerment. Trust me, they will prosecute for this - want more details on how this works, PM me...I've been here personally and it wasn't for anything the dog actually did either.

Call me stupid, but seems like the best bet is to have a well-rounded dog that can tolerate children around children and if you have children and a dog that can't be around them for whatever reason, then I hope you keep Cujo on lockdown so your kid gets to keep their face. I am not personally willing to take that kind of risk with my children - call me crazy, no damn dog is worth their life or well-being.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Regarding "dominance" and dog bites with children, I'm doing an externship right now with a well known veterinary behaviorist who is the president of the American College of Veterinary Behaviorists. We've had in several cases of aggression in dogs and incidents biting children (sometimes a child in the house, sometimes a neighbor child or a visiting child). I don't think being dominant has little or nothing to do with it as not a single one of the offending biters were what I'd describe as "dominant." They were all pretty much anxious and nervy fear biters. 

Dogs and kids are arguably never trustworthy. Though the definition of trustworthy is probably variable. That being said, it still seems better to have them introduced under control, especially when a pup is young so the pup learns the children are to be left alone, than have some sort of accident because the two are suddenly meeting under uncontrolled circumstances (a leash breaks, a kennel or crate or gate fails, whatever). Why have a dog for protection if you have to isolate the dog to the extent it could never protect you in your home because of the liability? Seems like it kind of defeats the point...?


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

I didn’t read the whole thing. Is this guy talking about biting or just mouthing? If it just mouthing I would think that would just need a little work to get out of the dog. If its biting kids put it in the freezer. What aint I getting here?


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

Ashley Campbell said:


> Disagree all you like, "dominant" was Martine's term, not mine - hence the quotation marks. Keep in mind, in the US, a dog that is dangerous to a child or can be constituted as such living in a home with children, can be charges for child endangerment. Trust me, they will prosecute for this - want more details on how this works, PM me...I've been here personally and it wasn't for anything the dog actually did either.
> 
> Call me stupid, but seems like the best bet is to have a well-rounded dog that can tolerate children around children and if you have children and a dog that can't be around them for whatever reason, then I hope you keep Cujo on lockdown so your kid gets to keep their face. I am not personally willing to take that kind of risk with my children - call me crazy, no damn dog is worth their life or well-being.


 
Problem with this is "what dogs are constituted as dangerous"? All dogs have teeth and all dogs can bite at anytime. They are still animals, they can knock kids over, jump on them, bump them accidentaly all causing harm to a child, whether maliciously/aggressive or not. How does the law figure one is an "accident" and another "endangerment"? Since a Chi dog can eat through a kids diaper, ripping genitals off while the parents slept, I would have to say any and all dogs are a danger to children. Or maybe just stupid parents are their biggest danger.


But just to be a PITA...
http://148532_1595762406499_1009127987_1669460_2320190_n.jpg


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Ashley Campbell said:


> Disagree all you like, "dominant" was Martine's term, not mine - hence the quotation marks. Keep in mind, in the US, a dog that is dangerous to a child or can be constituted as such living in a home with children, can be charges for child endangerment. Trust me, they will prosecute for this - want more details on how this works, PM me...I've been here personally and it wasn't for anything the dog actually did either.
> 
> Call me stupid, but seems like the best bet is to have a well-rounded dog that can tolerate children around children and if you have children and a dog that can't be around them for whatever reason, then I hope you keep Cujo on lockdown so your kid gets to keep their face. I am not personally willing to take that kind of risk with my children - call me crazy, no damn dog is worth their life or well-being.


Ok, then I am disagreeing with the terminolgy that leads people to be wary of dominat dogs. Truly dominat dogs are normally non aggressive....until they have reason to be aggressive. They are the most stable dogs around.


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## Ashley Campbell (Jun 21, 2009)

Michelle Kehoe said:


> Problem with this is "what dogs are constituted as dangerous"? All dogs have teeth and all dogs can bite at anytime. They are still animals, they can knock kids over, jump on them, bump them accidentaly all causing harm to a child, whether maliciously/aggressive or not. How does the law figure one is an "accident" and another "endangerment"? Since a Chi dog can eat through a kids diaper, ripping genitals off while the parents slept, I would have to say any and all dogs are a danger to children. Or maybe just stupid parents are their biggest danger.
> 
> 
> But just to be a PITA...
> http://148532_1595762406499_1009127987_1669460_2320190_n.jpg


Your link didn't come up for me.  Your chance at being a pain in the ass failed, lol. I do remember a Dachshund that ate a babies penis off through a diaper while the parents slept though. Tragic. I do agree that dogs and kids need supervision together (read my other posts, we're not talking ****ing Lassie here). 

As for the endangerment thing, it depends - on my case, the dog breed had been banned where I lived and we were grandfathered in because we lived there prior to the ban. The cop said the dog growled at him (which I didn't hear, and this was a big friendly dumb dog) - thus being labeled "dangerous" and causing me to get 3 counts of child endangerment and arrested in my own damn house - all because the cops showed up over, and get this, a mandatory dog license check. Yes I was eventually cleared of the charges by the US attorneys office (happened on a military base) and a CPS investigation that lasted 60 days. FUN! not.

I'd be much more concerned with a dog that might freak out because it's never been around children and bites out of fear, agitation, prey, whatever - THAT is what I was getting at, not hyper dog plowed into the kid and skinned his knees - that's not behavior that warrants being kicked to the curb or meeting Jesus. That's a whole different ball game. Accidents happen, but it's just flat out brain-dead to keep around a dog that you know would show aggression or fear to a child if they ever had an accidental encounter. The idea that "it hasn't happened yet" is just #-othat is putting your kids in danger. 

What dog is so important that you would keep it even knowing it could potentially be aggressive/fearful of a child (especially if never introduced)? Maybe that's the "pet" person in me, but I don't care how great the dog is, if it can't be reasonable around children on a chance encounter (it doesn't have to LOVE kids, just be tolerant and not try to eat them) then it doesn't belong at my home and I have no use for an animal I have to keep under lock and keep 24/7 for the safety of my kids.

I just can't think of anything that is worth the risk. *shrug*

ETA: Please excuse this if it's not written clearly, I've been sick and hit the dr up today and they gave me some meds - writing clearly is obviously not something I can do on narcotic medications...


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

Sorry about the link. Hopefully this works. 

http://www.workingdogforum.com/gallery/showimage.php?i=3993&catid=member&imageuser=2452

I agree dogs and children should have a bonding time, the same as the rest of the family. I just think it should be done slowly, cautiously and 100% attended by adults. Not every dog or kid is a good canidate. My dogs don't live inside so it isn't an issue for me. 

The day I came home from the hospital, the first thing I did was go see my dogs. I let them out, I petted them, let them smell me and where I had been, then I introduced the baby to them through their kennels. Maybe twice a week I did this, daily of course the dogs smelled the baby on me when I worked them, fed them and such. 

The dog in the link got to meet my son with me holding the baby, unkenneled first. He's 4 yrs old and fully trained in Protection/OB. My younger dog never was with my son on the ground. I either held the baby or had him in a stroller on our walks. Both dogs wanted to see him but weren't pushy about it. They poke their nose at his feet and give a couple licks, then off again after their ball or to pee on a tree. Nobody jumped up on me to get a closer look, they treated him with the same "eh it's just you" attitude they give me. Neither of my dogs are hand sluts. 

A much as I love my dog, I still don't trust him with a small baby, unattended or full time in the house. There is just no way I could have the dog inside and go on about my day like I normally do. I'm constantly going in the garage to do laundry, in my room making the bed, out on the porch to feed the cats, to the kitchen for a glass of water. All while the baby is on the floor, with his toys or propped up on the couch. So I don't buy the crap, when people have inside dogs, that they are keeping an eye on things the whole time. 

The picture was from a couple days ago, my son is 4.5 months old and this was the first time I put him down with a dog free. I don't get these people who come home from the hospital and drop the carseat on the floor, baby and all with dogs running about.


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## Ryan Pulliam (Oct 11, 2010)

Chris McDonald said:


> I didn’t read the whole thing. Is this guy talking about biting or just mouthing? If it just mouthing I would think that would just need a little work to get out of the dog. If its biting kids put it in the freezer. What aint I getting here?


Just mouthing


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Michelle Kehoe said:


> Sorry about the link. Hopefully this works.
> 
> http://www.workingdogforum.com/gallery/showimage.php?i=3993&catid=member&imageuser=2452
> 
> ...


Very healthy and intelligent advice. Congratulations Michelle!


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

There obvious is a huge difference in culture how in the US is thought about kids and working dogs and how "we" think about it at this side of the pound.

No dog can be trusted with a kid. Not because of the dog, but because of the kids behavior.
The dominant dog "we" mean is the dog that will demand from everyone that "he rules the world".
If someone shows any doubt, he will immediately "confirm" his dominance.
These dogs don't except anyone questioning their status.

A kid can never be with a dog like this without the person supervising and controlling the dog. These dogs are "king" and decide who they let them approach or not.

I hope I have "drawn" a clear picture of what we mean by a dominant dog.

For us, no kid is coming near most of our working dogs before they can be taught how to behave near our dogs. So it is more a matter of training kids, than it is training dogs.
With some its possible under our supervision, so we can teach our kids how to behave.

With my older kids (25 and 22 years old) it also was never a problem. No way they could/may come near the kennels. They knew serious punishment would be expected....:razz:. 

Dick


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## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

Thanks Dick, AMEN to that.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Must be a breed difference. My dogs are top of the hierarchy regardless of any dog and they do enforce it. I have trouble picturing dominance transerring to human. My dogs are excellent with people, and think kids walk on water but in their world they will not tolerate dogs of the same status and will set things straight.


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Must be a breed difference. My dogs are top of the hierarchy regardless of any dog and they do enforce it. I have trouble picturing dominance transerring to human. My dogs are excellent with people, and think kids walk on water but in their world they will not tolerate dogs of the same status and will set things straight.


Maybe in your case, but others react the same and have mals, DS, GSD's and so on.
In my opinion, this difference in culture is also one of the reasons why the "breedingprogram" won't work (good enough) so far, and stil more and more dogs are imported from this side of the pound.

Dick


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## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

And, the way working dogs are viewed in the U.S. is probably moving even further in the wrong direction (this reminds me of the thread mike suttle made about the police being less interested in a patrol dogs)


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

There is a great variance of what a working dog is. Many people feel a working dog should also be a family pet, many do not. Their choice. What I think is crazy is that some people think if a working dog will bite a kid or a family member, or kill a puppy or is dog aggressive he should be put down....some dogs are not meant to be family pets...and they should not be purchased as such...


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Indeed...I admire dogs like Bas, while never seeing him work in person, because getting a FR3 and PSA 1, he's probably no slouch, but seems clear headed enough to not see the baby as a threat to his "dominance" or whatever. 

When I took my dog to the Kansas City Renaissance Festival about a month ago and a toddler snuck up behind us and literally poked him in the eye and he did nothing, all the titles or all the work he may get in the future mean nothing if there's a lawsuit and he gets PTS. I didn't get him as a formal "personal protection dog," but in my mind, what use is there of one if they can't be out with you in public and not gobble up everything in its path? Otherwise I'd just get a hyena or something. :wink: Clearly a small number of people do need a very intense, anti-social dog, which is fine. I'm just pretty darn happy with my relatively social, relatively clear headed sport dog who is no fire breather but not a push over either.


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

This threat is going nowhere. Everybody wants or has "Rintintin" :roll::roll:

We are really speaking-talking a different language.:?

Dick


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## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

I dont know, Im reading some of this stuff and I think some are pinpointing to one trait of dog and labeling it this or that when I really dont think its that simple.

Dominance alone will not make a dog stable or aggressive... I think that goes back into sharpness,nerves, thresholds...they are not mutually exclusive... personal opinion of course. 

t


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## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Clearly a small number of people do need a very intense, anti-social dog, which is fine. I'm just pretty darn happy with my relatively social, relatively clear headed sport dog who is no fire breather but not a push over either.


All depends on what you expect from a dog and if you are happy with your dog then this is perfect.

I don't take my dogs with me everywhere I go. For me they don't have to be social but they have to behave. I don't want them to show aggression but I wouldn't like it either if they were everybody's friend.
If they are good with me and with my husband that is fine. No need to make friends with other people.

They don't accept orders or interaction from other people so not from children either. This doesn't mean they will attack for no reason, but they feel higher in rank so they won't hesitate to confirm that.
And such a reaction could mean serious injury, especially to a small kid so we have to take our responsibility and make sure it cannot happen.


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## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> This threat is going nowhere. Everybody wants or has "Rintintin" :roll::roll:
> 
> We are really speaking-talking a different language.:?
> 
> Dick


Exactly. Rintintin is fantasy...
Some don't seem to understand that certain things just don't go together.

They want a strong character PPD BUT it also has to be a pet and behave like a teddy bear...
Has to attack without hesitation BUT has to take whatever a toddler may do with a smile...
:-?:-?:-?

Make your choice. You can't have it all.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Indeed...I admire dogs like Bas, while never seeing him work in person, because getting a FR3 and PSA 1, he's probably no slouch, but seems clear headed enough to not see the baby as a threat to his "dominance" or whatever.
> 
> When I took my dog to the Kansas City Renaissance Festival about a month ago and a toddler snuck up behind us and literally poked him in the eye and he did nothing, all the titles or all the work he may get in the future mean nothing if there's a lawsuit and he gets PTS. I didn't get him as a formal "personal protection dog," but in my mind, what use is there of one if they can't be out with you in public and not gobble up everything in its path? Otherwise I'd just get a hyena or something. :wink: Clearly a small number of people do need a very intense, anti-social dog, which is fine. I'm just pretty darn happy with my relatively social, relatively clear headed sport dog who is no fire breather but not a push over either.


good for you  it is good that you are happy with your dog...

and if the dog did bite the kid in that scenario? would it be a bad dog? should it be put down? or would the owner be a complete idiot? or would the parents of the toddler be idiots? or both?

It is lucky you have the dog you have, otherwise some idiot that let his toddler sneak up on another idiot that brought her dog to a public event and was not paying attention to her dog's surroundings, would have an injured child...and most likely the innocent dog would pay the price for human stupidity...


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

tracey delin said:


> I dont know, Im reading some of this stuff and I think some are pinpointing to one trait of dog and labeling it this or that when I really dont think its that simple.
> 
> Dominance alone will not make a dog stable or aggressive... I think that goes back into sharpness,nerves, thresholds...they are not mutually exclusive... personal opinion of course.
> 
> t


I think Tracey has a good point. Many things make up the whole dog. I could breed these dogs to be aggressive with people but, I don't want that . At the same time I wanted them to be ruthless with game. Pure aggression does not have to be sacrificed so the dogs can be social with man. It may be a little trickier since you breed the dog to be aggressive with people. I have to wonder if dogs could be bred that were openly aggressive with people and very tolerant of different species of animals. All in all, breeding aggressive dogs isn't hard, it is breeding them to know when to be aggressive that may be the challenge. Teaching them to recognize a threat? IYou can't train that. It is natural instinc that is trained out of many dogs.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> I think Tracey has a good point. Many things make up the whole dog. I could breed these dogs to be aggressive with people but, I don't want that . At the same time I wanted them to be ruthless with game. Pure aggression does not have to be sacrificed so the dogs can be social with man. It may be a little trickier since you breed the dog to be aggressive with people. I have to wonder if dogs could be bred that were openly aggressive with people and very tolerant of different species of animals. All in all, breeding aggressive dogs isn't hard, it is breeding them to know when to be aggressive that may be the challenge. Teaching them to recognize a threat? IYou can't train that. It is natural instinc that is trained out of many dogs.


can you easily breed dogs that know when not to be aggressive towards game? what if the game is not a threat?  just saying...


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Joby Becker said:


> good for you  it is good that you are happy with your dog...
> 
> and if the dog did bite the kid in that scenario? would it be a bad dog? should it be put down? or would the owner be a complete idiot? or would the parents of the toddler be idiots? or both?
> 
> It is lucky you have the dog you have, otherwise some idiot that let his toddler sneak up on another idiot that brought her dog to a public event and was not paying attention to her dog's surroundings, would have an injured child...and most likely the innocent dog would pay the price for human stupidity...


Indeed...in American society, we ask a lot of a dog that they been exceedingly tolerant of all sorts of weird human behavior, particularly from children but from adults as well. For my part, I had my dog on a short traffic lead and for the KC Ren Fest, they even have you register at the gate, show proof of vaccinations, and pay admission for your dog (which is kind of smart if you think about it...). We paid to have him be there and were following the rules. The child was apparently well in front of his parents as they took a good 5 seconds to show up as me and my husband were prying his hands off my dog. No apologies from the parents for letting the rug rat toddle around where he pleased and mauling my dog, of course.  I did reward Fawkes of course.

That was kind of my and Ashley's point though, that no matter how you try to separate dogs and do what you can to prevent it, less than ideal interactions happen, like in a fairly crowded large event. Since me and Fawkes compete in dock diving, it's a very similar atmosphere: TONS of people (some of them occasionally even drunk and many not at all dog savvy), kids, other dogs, loud music, lots of tight places. So yeah, I do need my dog to be social and stable enough to adjus to a similar environment so it will make a bad scenario less likely to happen. I teach bite prevention presentations for kids with Elsa my Rottweiler and every time a child asks to pet my dogs, I thank both the kid for asking and their parents for teaching them that. :smile:


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

You´re right, we won´t do that with our dogs.

I had the same upbringing as Dicks kids, I would have had an a$$whooping for not listening if I would have come near the dogs without my parents present.
I still am careful with dog(s) of others, I keep a distance, while I read the dog before I aproach (or not). It is taught so well as a kid, it comes natural.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

> Indeed...in American society, we ask a lot of a dog that they been exceedingly tolerant of all sorts of weird human behavior, particularly from children but from adults as well.


I agree that we ask that of pets, and dogs that are going to be allowed to interact with strangers, out in the public...but we don not ask that of ALL dogs, I do not judge other people on how social their animals are, as long as they properly handle and contain them.



> That was kind of my and Ashley's point though, that no matter how you try to separate dogs and do what you can to prevent it, less than ideal interactions happen, like in a fairly crowded large event.


If I had a dog that was not very social, and not controllable, I as most people would not bring them to a large crowded event, to intermix with the large crowd of people...IF I did attend a large event, such as a dog event..I would however be very aware of my surroundings, my eyes are on my dog, and its immediate surroundings, when I am in public.



> I do need my dog to be social and stable enough to adjus to a similar environment so it will make a bad scenario less likely to happen. I teach bite prevention presentations for kids with Elsa my Rottweiler and every time a child asks to pet my dogs, I thank both the kid for asking and their parents for teaching them that....


That is what you demand of your dog, it is not a requirement for other people...would you classify Elsa as a working dog? or a working breed of dog?

This is the difference, some people require that their "working" dogs be social and tolerate crap from people. Some people have "working pets", others do not. Some people have what they consider working dogs that are not required to tolerate crap from people and kids, especially in a home setting...and have dogs that will NOT do well in these situations, but because they are not put in these environments, this has no bearing on their status as working animals.

The problem usually occurs when people get dogs that are too much for them to properly judge or handle and put the dogs into these "pet" type situations...it is not a dog problem it is a people problem...

for the record, my dog is a fairly social animal, and does interact with my GF, her teenage kids, and out adult friends...but there are also many scenarios that would end up in someone getting bitten if I was not careful and smart about interactions. I do not allow anyone to attempt to try to take anything away from the dog, or go near her if she has something on the ground, such as a toy, or bone or whatever...I do not allow the kids to take the dog for walks, strangers to manhandle the dog, or act creepy around her...and I do not let strange children pet the dog..... she is not what I would consider a true dominant dog, or an agressive dog persay, but if she was, I would be fine...by adjusting her exposure to certain things...


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## Alison Grubb (Nov 18, 2009)

I think it really just comes down to knowing your dog. If it's not the type of dog to deal well with kids pulling on it and being a general annoyance then you don't put it in situations like a renaissance fair or whatever or expect it to coexist with children in the home. This does not make the dog a bad dog imo.

Of my two dogs, the Pit Bull is the one who deals well with kids. If I want to take a dog to a BBQ or a football game or fireworks or whatever, he is the one I bring. If I am looking to have a different kind of fun with my dog, I grab the Mal. I can appreciate both sides of the coin.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Joby Becker said:


> I agree that we ask that of pets, and dogs that are going to be allowed to interact with strangers, out in the public...but we don not ask that of ALL dogs, I do not judge other people on how social their animals are, as long as they properly handle and contain them.
> 
> 
> If I had a dog that was not very social, and not controllable, I as most people would not bring them to a large crowded event, to intermix with the large crowd of people...IF I did attend a large event, such as a dog event..I would however be very aware of my surroundings, my eyes are on my dog, and its immediate surroundings, when I am in public.


Yeah, as would I. I respect people that understand that their dog is not dog park or bring along to Petco material.



> That is what you demand of your dog, it is not a requirement for other people...would you classify Elsa as a working dog? or a working breed of dog?


She's a certified therapy dog and a great herding dog (for a newbie to herding like me), so both. 




> This is the difference, some people require that their "working" dogs be social and tolerate crap from people. Some people have "working pets", others do not. Some people have what they consider working dogs that are not required to tolerate crap from people and kids, especially in a home setting...and have dogs that will NOT do well in these situations, but because they are not put in these environments, this has no bearing on their status as working animals.
> 
> The problem usually occurs when people get dogs that are too much for them to properly judge or handle and put the dogs into these "pet" type situations...it is not a dog problem it is a people problem...
> 
> for the record, my dog is a fairly social animal, and does interact with my GF, her teenage kids, and out adult friends...but there are also many scenarios that would end up in someone getting bitten if I was not careful and smart about interactions. I do not allow anyone to attempt to try to take anything away from the dog, or go near her if she has something on the ground, such as a toy, or bone or whatever...I do not allow the kids to take the dog for walks, strangers to manhandle the dog, or act creepy around her...and I do not let strange children pet the dog..... she is not what I would consider a true dominant dog, or an agressive dog persay, but if she was, I would be fine...by adjusting her exposure to certain things...


Yeah, it depends a lot on what your goals for the dog are, of course. Being able to read them and understand their limitations is invaluable. I just can personally appreciate a good clear headed dog that is aloof to social. The Rottie is a social butterfly, the female Mal is social, and the male Mal is selectively social, which works just fine for my needs. I need for them to be stable in public, which all three are. Sounds like your girl is just what you need too.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

like I said the category of "working dogs" is very broad...especially when it comes to what is expected of them, and desired from them...

what pisses me off more than show breeders, are working dog people that say if a dog will bite a kid, or perhaps kill a puppy, that it should be put down...


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## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> can you easily breed dogs that know when not to be aggressive towards game? what if the game is not a threat?  just saying...


IM not sure if this is what you are asking but Ive heard of more than one hunting/ farm dog that knows the difference between the farm animals and game/ strays.... but I guess what do you mean by "know"... naturally? or trained? or either?

t


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

tracey delin said:


> IM not sure if this is what you are asking but Ive heard of more than one hunting/ farm dog that knows the difference between the farm animals and game/ strays.... but I guess what do you mean by "know"... naturally? or trained? or either?
> 
> t


it was just making a point, Don answered it, you have to train them off of trash game..and what if the game is not a threat, can you breed dogs that will not engage it ??? dogs that will only engage threatening game? how easy is that???LOL...
just pointing out that it is apples and oranges....


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## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

yeah breed for dogs low in prey and high in defense that dont really want to engage \\/


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

tracey delin said:


> yeah breed for dogs low in prey and high in defense that dont really want to engage \\/


got me there....
 this whole thread doesnt make sense to me anyhow....

breeding for traits that make a dog capable of engaging, fighting, and dominating humans, often creates dogs that are not easily kept as pets, or around kids...just saying.

not even comparable to hunting dogs in any way...or "working pets"

this type of work is slightly different than playing games, and helping people with their emotions.


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## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

havent many people been around dogs that were very social but also very tough and serious when working?


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## Ashley Campbell (Jun 21, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> got me there....
> this whole thread doesnt make sense to me anyhow....
> 
> breeding for traits that make a dog capable of engaging, fighting, and dominating humans, often creates dogs that are not easily kept as pets, or around kids...just saying.


Yep, and all I'm saying is buying a dog that isn't easily kept as a pet or around children, when you have a bunch of kids in your home is none too bright. 

But I give up. I'm done with this because it's going in circles at this point, lol.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Ashley Campbell said:


> Yep, and all I'm saying is buying a dog that isn't easily kept as a pet or around children, when you have a bunch of kids in your home is none too bright.
> 
> But I give up. I'm done with this because it's going in circles at this point, lol.


True...if the dogs are to be kept in the home with small kids..I agree 100%


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Matt Grosch said:


> havent many people been around dogs that were very social but also very tough and serious when working?


sure. 

and also many that were not very social, and many others that are social that I still would not have around toddlers...

BUT BACK TO THE TOPIC...

judging the OP's puppy breeding which is showline UKC presa canario and "REAL" APBT, I would have no issues letting the dog around my child, I personally would not let puppy around small children that much until he is done teething, due to sharp puppy teeth. But that being said I would think this puppy should be able to be raised in a family setting without much difficulty if pup is taught proper manners...

I have owned many presa, and most presa are very social and not people dominant, especially these days..not so much in the early 90's and a REAL APBT is very safe with children in my experience.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

tracey delin said:


> IM not sure if this is what you are asking but Ive heard of more than one hunting/ farm dog that knows the difference between the farm animals and game/ strays.... but I guess what do you mean by "know"... naturally? or trained? or either?
> 
> t



My dogs won't hurt a lesser dog but they won't give a dominate dog a pass unless it submits. I think it would be tough to breed a high prey dog to not kill game that runs. They can be around the family cat because it doesn't run. When it runs, they chase but they seem to understand it is all in fun then. Dogs tolerate their cats but will kill thye neighbors cat with one stroke.


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> This threat is going nowhere. Everybody wants or has "Rintintin" :roll::roll:
> 
> We are really speaking-talking a different language.:?
> 
> Dick



Amen to that!

a workingdog is a workindog...its not a pet to start with, you buy it with the intent to have it work for and with you and not to play around with and to have it chase your kids around the yard....its not the dog that needs to be trained to understand this...its the owners hellbent on turning it into a family pet! 

more often then not this combination does not mix and distaster strikes with vengeance only to have the dog receive the full blame of the situation and it more often then not gets put down as being a "bad dog" which SUCKS since its the owners that are at fault here and not the dog....

now a shitload of people are going to hate my guts and disagree with me on this and i really dont care to be honest but the thing is...its a DOG ! its not a human, it doesnt share our human traits, desires and emotions and it sure as shit dont think as we do...it acts according to its nature! You all can jump up and down and say differently but at the end of the day this discusion may go on and on untill hell freezes over and the facts will still be the same whether you like em or not...

If you want a pet then buy a pet and not a workingdog to start with...make up your mind on what you want!

a dog does not simply like kids or people or other dogs just because we want it to...this does NOT a bad dog make....

I see all these people that say " bite my kid, bite my wife, bite whoever and im putting it down" but lets be honest here....who's the blame ? and dont say THE DOG !!! coze he just does what comes natural....it is so very easy to blame the dog rather then to look at our own stupidity and to look at where we might have been at fault here.....

Have any of us ( i have) wondered what kinds of shit a dog has to deal with day to day ? how it has to accept all sorts of stuff that we throw at it ? how it always has to be perfectly behaved and nice and cuddly and fluffy ? Fk that...not every dog is the same! buy a dog ? then deal with the DOG and all the things that go allong with having him as either a pet or a working dog but for fks sake dont expect the impossible here...and if it does something that you dont like then dont point at the dog first, take a good look at yourself first and think what you might have done wrong before shifting blame.

There's no such thing as a bad dog, theres only idiot owners! And if I offended anyone with this reply then so be it! Im tired of all the pussyfootin around when it comes to dogs and their behaviour and if they might be dominant or mean or vicious or whatever!

>!<


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Looks like it is you and me in the penalty box Alice. :grin:


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

+1 penalty box here.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> There obvious is a huge difference in culture how in the US is thought about kids and working dogs and how "we" think about it at this side of the pound.
> 
> No dog can be trusted with a kid. Not because of the dog, but because of the kids behavior.
> The dominant dog "we" mean is the dog that will demand from everyone that "he rules the world".
> ...





Martine Loots said:


> Thanks Dick, AMEN to that.





Alice Bezemer said:


> Amen to that!
> 
> a workingdog is a workindog...its not a pet to start with, you buy it with the intent to have it work for and with you and not to play around with and to have it chase your kids around the yard....its not the dog that needs to be trained to understand this...its the owners hellbent on turning it into a family pet!
> 
> ...


whooo God Dam I like the way you think, Girl if I wasn't married I slap my mother with a butter biscuit ( sorry thats a southern saying I here down here in the sticks ). Oh yea and by the way **** is spelled this way not FK.=D>=D>=D>


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## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

Alice Bezemer said:


> the dog receive the full blame of the situation and it more often then not gets put down as being a "bad dog" which SUCKS since its the owners that are at fault here and not the dog....
> 
> I see all these people that say " bite my kid, bite my wife, bite whoever and im putting it down" but lets be honest here....who's the blame ? and dont say THE DOG !!! coze he just does what comes natural....*it is so very easy to blame the dog rather then to look at our own stupidity and to look at where we might have been at fault here.....*
> 
> ..and if it does something that you dont like then dont point at the dog first, *take a good look at yourself first and think what you might have done wrong* before shifting blame.>!<


Goodness, I am not offended, I agree with the above =D>... although I dont agree that there are no bad dogs [-(, in many cases, the all too knowing owners TAUGHT the dog the behavior they deem "bad".... yet they cant or dont want to see that?:-#

t


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Looks like it is you and me in the penalty box Alice.


Thats ok as long as you bring the Bud ! Besides...the penaltybox is a fun place to be 



Harry Keely said:


> whooo God Dam I like the way you think, Girl if I wasn't married I slap my mother with a butter biscuit ( sorry thats a southern saying I here down here in the sticks ). Oh yea and by the way **** is spelled this way not FK.=D>=D>=D>


LOL well if I wasnt married iddddd ehmmmm slap my mother with a 10 ton gravel trailer ! hell id slap her free of charge







and FK still looks better then **** lol...i dont like stars


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

Matt Grosch said:


> havent many people been around dogs that were very social but also very tough and serious when working?


The dog in my pic is not really social, he is what I call tollerant or neutral. He's not the dog that goes looking for attention, not even from me. He rarely comes to me for attention, unless I have his equipment in hand. He's 100% stable in social situations though. He's the dog I would take in public. He is a very tough dog and I have never seen him back down to any threat, but also he is not a dog that goes looking for a fight.

I never expect 1 dog to be able to accept every situation. So having more than 1, I used to pick who will actually behave and or enjoy the situation I am headed into publicly. Some dogs I take when I am avoiding people, another when I feel like strolling the pet stores, on a Sunday afternoon, with the kids.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Alice Bezemer said:


> Amen to that!
> 
> a workingdog is a workindog...its not a pet to start with, you buy it with the intent to have it work for and with you and not to play around with and to have it chase your kids around the yard....its not the dog that needs to be trained to understand this...its the owners hellbent on turning it into a family pet!


I agree with the rest for the most part, but what if you got the dog so that its job in life is to protect the family? Not sure about Europeans, but most Americans have a vague idea that they got a dog "for protection." Whether that means they want a watch dog who barks or a manstopper is highly variable, of course. But how can it protect the family from a break in or protect you when you run errands if the dog is so unstable and unsocial that you have it locked in a kennel or the backyard at all times except when you take it out to work it for the day then it gets marched straight back in the kennel? Why not just get a gun instead? Upkeep is cheaper and it's easier to clean! :mrgreen:


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> My dogs won't hurt a lesser dog but they won't give a dominate dog a pass unless it submits. I think it would be tough to breed a high prey dog to not kill game that runs. They can be around the family cat because it doesn't run. When it runs, they chase but they seem to understand it is all in fun then. Dogs tolerate their cats but will kill thye neighbors cat with one stroke.


What Don says above, is what I have experienced with all of my dogs so far. I however can't let them kill my neighbors cats and stay one step ahead of the dog when I am out. I give them a firm no when we are out walking and I see a cat. They listen and we continue on our way. My cats are a different story, it's like a game I think. Sometimes the cats run, other times they don't. The dogs wont kill them eitherway. Neighborhood cats aren't stupid enough to jump my fence anymore.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> I agree with the rest for the most part, but what if you got the dog so that its job in life is to protect the family? Not sure about Europeans, but most Americans have a vague idea that they got a dog "for protection." Whether that means they want a watch dog who barks or a manstopper is highly variable, of course. But how can it protect the family from a break in or protect you when you run errands if the dog is so unstable and unsocial that you have it locked in a kennel or the backyard at all times except when you take it out to work it for the day then it gets marched straight back in the kennel? Why not just get a gun instead? Upkeep is cheaper and it's easier to clean! :mrgreen:


Then you get a breed like mine that doesn't have to be taught to protect. They just do it. :wink:


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Alice Bezemer said:


> Thats ok as long as you bring the Bud ! Besides...the penaltybox is a fun place to be
> 
> 
> 
> ...


:lol::-\":lol:


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Then you get a breed like mine that doesn't have to be taught to protect. They just do it. :wink:


Malinois do not need to be taught how to protect so much as they need to be taught when to protect. And more importantly, when not to. And do share how you know for sure your dogs would protect. I could have a FR 3, MR 3, PSA 3, Sch 3, etc etc, dog and I still don't know I'd claim that I know they'd protect me. Did enough martial arts to know not to brag that I could take so and so, particularly in an unknown situation. O


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

I can say one thing its not a breed thing its a individual dog thing, have tested a good bit of dogs from differing breeds and few would bite without a sleeve presentation or a suit on, more so the sleeve happy doggies to not engage. People think because the dogs hitting the end of a line that it wants the man ahhhhhh don't think so its doing that out of prey and play. Suit dogs have there fixations too. Even to much muzzle work can create a head bunter with no teeth. Sleeve is a good starting point then moving onto a suit then adding a muzzle into and also with some hidden equipment its still not a 100% guarantee. You don't know 100% till that dog has had the chance to taste blood. Not saying that some dogs won't latch on to ya but I have seen some of these so called bad ass that bite in the flight / fight mode that people have said my dog will bite a equipment piece I know my dog will bite for real. Once again don't think so. All you can do is train to raise the chances of a bite being given if needed but don't always count your chickens before they hatch.jmo


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## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> I agree with the rest for the most part, but what if you got the dog so that its job in life is to protect the family? Not sure about Europeans, but most Americans have a vague idea that they got a dog "for protection." Whether that means they want a watch dog who barks or a manstopper is highly variable, of course. But how can it protect the family from a break in or protect you when you run errands if the dog is so unstable and unsocial that you have it locked in a kennel or the backyard at all times except when you take it out to work it for the day then it gets marched straight back in the kennel? Why not just get a gun instead? Upkeep is cheaper and it's easier to clean! :mrgreen:



I agree, when americans do something its usually for the end goal, even if they often get it wrong. But guns are for personal defense, martial arts are for a real fight should it happen, and dogs are for family protection.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Malinois do not need to be taught how to protect so much as they need to be taught when to protect. And more importantly, when not to. And do share how you know for sure your dogs would protect. I could have a FR 3, MR 3, PSA 3, Sch 3, etc etc, dog and I still don't know I'd claim that I know they'd protect me. Did enough martial arts to know not to brag that I could take so and so, particularly in an unknown situation. O


Like leading a lamb to the slaughter.Of course you don't know if any of the sport dogs will protect you. You claim that is why your into sport dogs anyway....you really don't want them for protection. But you really do fantasize about them protecting you regardless of what you say. People with sport dogs can't accept the fact that some breeds traits are to be protective. They are known for it. Yet, you belive non of them will. Gotta wonder where they got the reputation. I have posted several incidents involving my dogs and they almost all involved different dogs so I am not going to repeat them. Several of those incident the dogs scared me as all I could get hold of was the hair on their backs. In no incident did anyone care to challenge the dogs. Getting severly hurt does deter the dogs because they have all been hurt. There are breeds that are naturally protective and they can read a situation vbery well as long as they are not trained to what people people perceive they should act like. The old saying applies here. Some people just have to fix something that ain't broke until it is.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Then you get a breed like mine that doesn't have to be taught to protect. They just do it. :wink:


Don, we have come full circle now to our first interactions on here, when you made this exact statement. you love to stir the pot..this I know, I do too 

It all depends on your definition of PROTECT. 

There are scenarios that can be set up to TEST the likelyhood that a dog will protect a person (by biting a person and fighting if person does not run away) or not, these tests are especially accurate in my opinion for dogs that have never done bitework, never have bitten hidden equipment, or have never seen a bitesuit...because they have never bitten equipment and therefore do not realize they are biting equipment, they believe they are actually biting and hurting a man.

Anytime you care to prove that your dogs will protect you without any training, I will do my best to set it up...and no, no one I know will perform the test with no equipment on, before you make that a requirement...

I have owned, have heard of, and seen dogs that will bite to protect with no training, but they are not nearly as common as one might think, regardless of the breed in question


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## Alison Grubb (Nov 18, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> Don, we have come full circle now to our first interactions on here, when you made this exact statement. you love to stir the pot..this I know, I do too
> 
> It all depends on your definition of PROTECT.
> 
> ...


Just want to let you boys know that video will be required.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Alison Grubb said:


> Just want to let you boys know that video will be required.


I am not going to CA, so it wouldn't be me..I would love the chance to get out there, and would love to visit Don's yard and see his dogs, and have a drink or two with him, and go hunting and all that, and would love the chance to test the dogs. I do like Don, we talk on the phone every now and again, now that he has the old Magic Jack...

But I am pretty sure with all the resources at my fingertips I could find someone in his area to meet him, if he wanted to test his theories out.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Isn't this what I set up when we first started. LOL. Acually, in the context of my reply to Maren, If we make the confrontation realistic, you can do it without a suit....as long as you act like statue when the dogs intervene. They won't hurt you unless you persist. The will siot 2" in front opf you and stare a hole through you.....daring you to move. With these dogs, If you hurt them it will just piss them off and trigger them. I have had two incidents where the dogs were sitting in front of people guarding like that.

In all fairness, would I expect any airedale to do it that is being bred these days??....Not a chance. Like most breeds they are not even close to what they became known for. They are pretty much pet dogs.
I do suspect when the day comes this little German pup will take it to you but where he draws the line I don't know. I suspect he has a much shorter trigger. Start another thread. Like how did many of the breeds known to be fealess family protector get the reputation if they wouldn't protect like sport folks believe? Has it been breed out of most of them??


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Like leading a lamb to the slaughter.Of course you don't know if any of the sport dogs will protect you. You claim that is why your into sport dogs anyway....you really don't want them for protection. But you really do fantasize about them protecting you regardless of what you say. People with sport dogs can't accept the fact that some breeds traits are to be protective. They are known for it. Yet, you belive non of them will. Gotta wonder where they got the reputation. I have posted several incidents involving my dogs and they almost all involved different dogs so I am not going to repeat them. Several of those incident the dogs scared me as all I could get hold of was the hair on their backs. In no incident did anyone care to challenge the dogs. Getting severly hurt does deter the dogs because they have all been hurt. There are breeds that are naturally protective and they can read a situation vbery well as long as they are not trained to what people people perceive they should act like. The old saying applies here. Some people just have to fix something that ain't broke until it is


Wait...I claim what about what now? Are the voices in your head of what I say especially talkative lately? Yes, please tell me why I am into sport dogs. :lol: I can't quite get past that part...


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Wait...I claim what about what now? Are the voices in your head of what I say especially talkative lately? Yes, please tell me why I am into sport dogs. :lol: I can't quite get past that part...


What is PSA??


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

A protection sport organization?


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> A protection sport organization?


So, you like mean dogs then ??


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

I like protection sport like I like martial arts. But it's still a sport. The further along in martial arts you get, the more you realize what you don't know. Thus making it unwise to assume your training is going to cover your butt in all situations. Same with training the dogs in a protection sport. It'd be great for the dogs to defend me if it came down to it, sure. But I am not betting the farm on it any more than I'm betting for my experience in martial arts to. Never will know quite what will go down until it actually does, so no sense bragging how "real" one's dogs are as it could be a fatal mistake.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> I like protection sport like I like martial arts. But it's still a sport. The further along in martial arts you get, the more you realize what you don't know. Thus making it unwise to assume your training is going to cover your butt in all situations. Same with training the dogs in a protection sport. It'd be great for the dogs to defend me if it came down to it, sure. But I am not betting the farm on it any more than I'm betting for my experience in martial arts to. Never will know quite what will go down until it actually does, so no sense bragging how "real" one's dogs are as it could be a fatal mistake.


My dog will take you down...unless you freeze like a statue, then he will stare you down..almost like he's daring you to move :lol:

http://i881.photobucket.com/albums/ac13/ggrimwood/killa.jpg


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Oh, you got a frother too? You may want to check him for the hydrophoby. ;-) One of my decoys is already complaining that his car is left with a bunch of my dog's saliva after practicing the car jacking scenario from the flying spit.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> I like protection sport like I like martial arts. But it's still a sport. The further along in martial arts you get, the more you realize what you don't know. Thus making it unwise to assume your training is going to cover your butt in all situations. Same with training the dogs in a protection sport. It'd be great for the dogs to defend me if it came down to it, sure. But I am not betting the farm on it any more than I'm betting for my experience in martial arts to. Never will know quite what will go down until it actually does, so no sense bragging how "real" one's dogs are as it could be a fatal mistake.


Is that a strawman argument??? LOL

Only if your dogs cur. So what if they do in a fake scenario. It is going to have to be pretty realistic to trigger my dogs. Don't know if it will work in a made up situatiion. These dogs work on instinct so we will have to make it real because they are not game players.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Is that a strawman argument??? LOL
> 
> Only if your dogs cur. So what if they do in a fake scenario. It is going to have to be pretty realistic to trigger my dogs. Don't know if it will work in a made up situatiion. These dogs work on instinct so we will have to make it real because they are not game players.


Lets see the video :lol:

I stole that line, but it suits the post.


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

I agree with the line stealer


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

I always like a good challenge. Had a lot of them. My going to the nationals was because the national breed club challenged me to bring the dogs and run them against "the best in the breed". Set the highest standard in their 22 year history at that challenge. I am game. Let's get it on.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Is that a strawman argument??? LOL
> 
> Only if your dogs cur. So what if they do in a fake scenario. It is going to have to be pretty realistic to trigger my dogs. Don't know if it will work in a made up situatiion. These dogs work on instinct so we will have to make it real because they are not game players.


That only sounds like every "well, MY dogs are soooo much realer than YOUR sport dogs" post in the PPD section since, well...ever. :lol::lol::lol: Indeed, post that video of your awesome serious non-game playing protection airedales.


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

Looking forward to this. The airedale has peaked my interest as of late.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Now that is a strawman argument/diversion. Your the one that jumped on my comment about getting one of my dogs that is a natural protector and calling itm BS. My dogs have been bred for an entirely different pupose. I have had to stop them from hurting people several times and I know when these dogs are serious.. You call bullshit and I say bring it on and you make me out to be the bad guy. LOL. There are dogs out there that are natural protectors and they work on instinct. These dogs are bred for different things than yours are.

I will tell you a true story. I tried to get a doctor, that lives close to where Carol and Jeff had the last event, to take his dog, one of mine, over there. He even called Carol I believe. I wanted people to get an idea of what I talk about. The doctor, was afraid some of the dogs there may have more aggression than sense and decided against taking the dog. A nationally known professional retriever trainer trained this dog for birds. He gave the Dr. a long lesson on how to read the dog so nobody, or their dogs got hurt. This trainer has trained a number of my dogs.


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Don Turnipseed said:


> I will tell you a true story. I tried to get a doctor, that lives close to where Carol and Jeff had the last event, to take his dog, one of mine, over there. He even called Carol I believe. I wanted people to get an idea of what I talk about. The doctor, was afraid some of the dogs there may have more aggression than sense and decided against taking the dog. A nationally known professional retriever trainer trained this dog for birds. He gave the Dr. a long lesson on how to read the dog so nobody, or their dogs got hurt. This trainer has trained a number of my dogs.


I don't understand this and need clarity. You have a dog that has been trained to fetch ducks. Got that part. The guy did not want to go because he was afraid of the other dogs at the seminar? He had to be given a lesson by the retriever trainer on how to keep his dog from attacking people or dogs?


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Now that is a strawman argument/diversion. Your the one that jumped on my comment about getting one of my dogs that is a natural protector and calling itm BS. My dogs have been bred for an entirely different pupose. I have had to stop them from hurting people several times and I know when these dogs are serious.. You call bullshit and I say bring it on and you make me out to be the bad guy. LOL. There are dogs out there that are natural protectors and they work on instinct. These dogs are bred for different things than yours are.


My problem with your comment is that you could call any Chihuahua who barks and snarls and likely will bite (if it ever leaves its mistress's handbag) a "natural protector." However, that being said, I really doubt the number of dogs that are naturally protective that would actually engage and continue to stay engaged on a decoy with very heavy pressure. I was at the Gathering last spring and man, those decoys put some very experienced and talented teams through the ringer in terms of pressure on the dog. Not a single one aced every single scenario. I am really doubtful an untrained dog, no matter what it was bred for or its natural abilities, would fare any better.



> I will tell you a true story. I tried to get a doctor, that lives close to where Carol and Jeff had the last event, to take his dog, one of mine, over there. He even called Carol I believe. I wanted people to get an idea of what I talk about. The doctor, was afraid some of the dogs there may have more aggression than sense and decided against taking the dog. A nationally known professional retriever trainer trained this dog for birds. He gave the Dr. a long lesson on how to read the dog so nobody, or their dogs got hurt. This trainer has trained a number of my dogs.


What was the point of this story?


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> You´re right, we won´t do that with our dogs.
> 
> I had the same upbringing as Dicks kids, I would have had an a$$whooping for not listening if I would have come near the dogs without my parents present.
> I still am careful with dog(s) of others, I keep a distance, while I read the dog before I aproach (or not). It is taught so well as a kid, it comes natural.



As did I and my children and now their children. Teasing a dog has always been and will continue to be a reason for a good ass whipping.
My youngest grandchild got his finger pinched (not aggressively) by the dog next door. He (grandchild) got spanked for sticking his finger through the fence.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> That only sounds like every "well, MY dogs are soooo much realer than YOUR sport dogs" post in the PPD section since, well...ever. :lol::lol::lol: Indeed, post that video of your awesome serious non-game playing protection airedales.


They not protection airedales Maren, they are protective. These are not sport dogs. They have all been severly injured and don't stop. They don't get to win every time. Most have never been inside of a house. There is electric wires all over this yard. Looks like a power station. They are there for a reason that obviously escapes you. And you are making a fool out of youself again.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Jennifer Coulter said:


> I don't understand this and need clarity. You have a dog that has been trained to fetch ducks. Got that part. The guy did not want to go because he was afraid of the other dogs at the seminar? He had to be given a lesson by the retriever trainer on how to keep his dog from attacking people or dogs?


He wouldn't take the dog there because to many of the sport dogs show aggression. As I have said, these dogs won't tolerate other dogs that show aggression to them. He simply thought it was a bad idea.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> My problem with your comment is that you could call any Chihuahua who barks and snarls and likely will bite (if it ever leaves its mistress's handbag) a "natural protector." However, that being said, I really doubt the number of dogs that are naturally protective that would actually engage and continue to stay engaged on a decoy with very heavy pressure. I was at the Gathering last spring and man, those decoys put some very experienced and talented teams through the ringer in terms of pressure on the dog. Not a single one aced every single scenario. I am really doubtful an untrained dog, no matter what it was bred for or its natural abilities, would fare any better.
> 
> What was the point of this story?


Your problem is anything I say Maren. Aside from that, I wouln't expect the dogs to do well in every scenario. None will out, none will do obedience. But, they are protective which is what ewe were talking about so why are you trying to confuse the issue??? Another strawman tactic?


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Any one wants to contiue this off topic discussion will have to start a new thread.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> They not protection airedales Maren, they are protective. These are not sport dogs. They have all been severly injured and don't stop. They don't get to win every time. Most have never been inside of a house. There is electric wires all over this yard. Looks like a power station. They are there for a reason that obviously escapes you. And you are making a fool out of youself again.


*yawn* Video. Do it. Cause we all want to see the airedales that naturally shoot fireballs from their eyes and bolts of lightning from their arses engaging a man. Every third thread in the PPD section is from someone with an offbreed with anything from livestock guardian breeds to hunting mastiffs saying how naturally protective they are. Yet no police force uses them. Why is that? :-k It takes several years of build up and training to finish a dog. An untrained dog, regardless of its genetics, will more than likely not understand it needs to engage and keep engaging despite really heavy pressure, and it will likely cave. I'm sure there are exceptions, but they would be exceeding rare.

And OMG, they've never been in a house and you have to keep them apart using hot wire!?!? Cause OMG, THAT'S SO HARDCORE! :roll: Goats often need hotwire to keep them from escaping and most goats live outside. Not impressive, sorry...


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Your problem is anything I say Maren. Aside from that, I wouln't expect the dogs to do well in every scenario. None will out, none will do obedience. But, they are protective which is what ewe were talking about so why are you trying to confuse the issue??? Another strawman tactic?


My problem is that you speak out of your ass and that you get all defensive when called on it. :lol: Your say your dogs are "protective." What does that mean to you exactly? They bark or maybe lunge at strangers? So does the Bassett hound that lives next door to me.  That they may or may not go after someone threatening? How do you know? And how do you know they will engage and stay engaged? You don't, do you? I don't know if my dogs will either, but then again I don't go on and on about how mine are natural BAMFs either. Start a new thread if you like...


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## Anna Kasho (Jan 16, 2008)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> My problem is that you speak out of your ass and that you get all defensive when called on it. :lol: Your say your dogs are "protective." What does that mean to you exactly? They bark or maybe lunge at strangers? So does the Bassett hound that lives next door to me.  That they may or may not go after someone threatening? How do you know? And how do you know they will engage and stay engaged? You don't, do you? I don't know if my dogs will either, but then again I don't go on and on about how mine are natural BAMFs either. Start a new thread if you like...


I think you already know, kinda... :lol:
http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f16/bad-guy-0-dog-1-a-7940/index2.html#post84626

And I think Don's posted about a couple "oh shit" moments when his dogs went after somebody.

I too would love to see video (and actually surprised that no one has tried to test Don's dogs, as argumentative as everyone has been about it) but until I see actual proof to the contrary, my money is on the airedales. :lol:8-[


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> I agree with the rest for the most part, but what if you got the dog so that its job in life is to protect the family? Not sure about Europeans, but most Americans have a vague idea that they got a dog "for protection." Whether that means they want a watch dog who barks or a manstopper is highly variable, of course. But how can it protect the family from a break in or protect you when you run errands if the dog is so unstable and unsocial that you have it locked in a kennel or the backyard at all times except when you take it out to work it for the day then it gets marched straight back in the kennel? Why not just get a gun instead? Upkeep is cheaper and it's easier to clean! :mrgreen:





> Then you get a breed like mine that doesn't have to be taught to protect. They just do it.
> 
> 
> > And to think, you have made a fool out of yourself for numerous pages just because of this answer because you don't have a clue about what you are talking about. You don't have any understanding of the difference breeding makes outside of thinking you do. These are terriers....they hunt to kill, not for the fun of it. When it comes to people they are very forgiving but when triggered, they will hurt you. I have had them going out the window of the truck after people in an incident of road rage and it was everything I could do top hang onto the hair on their backs. I know when these dogs are serious. The guy ran to his car when he saw them coming out the window. That was on the edge of a hwy in a service station. totally foreign element for these dogs but, the guy was yelling at me because I told him to go fk himself. You would do yourself a service to quit while people still think education makes all the difference.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

My 3 dogs from that trio were composed of an old male husky/Rottweiler mix that I still own who is fearful, the male Mal/GSD who I have since sold and who was a wash from Schutzhund (so his reaction wasn't surprising), and my current male Mal who was something like 14-15 months old with no protection training on him at the time. That's kind of the point though...my dog Fawkes genetically "has it," but since he was both quite young and had no training at that point, he had little or no reaction to a drunk stranger when being handled by my husband. I think now that he's about 3.5 years old and now has had some protection training on him, he'd act a bit different.  But then again, I simply don't know unless I was to test him in a real life scenario. Which is why I must stay pretty self deprecating on the matter as I'd rather be pleasantly surprised rather than painfully disappointed. :lol: Having not started bitework until he was 3, I think he's coming along okay, but I still don't talk smack about how awesome my dog is as a firebreather. :smile:


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

I told a story in the hunting section recently about a dog that jump a pup of mine in Id in a trail ride. I left part opf the story out. But for Maren, the pup killed the dog in less time than iot took the owner to get off his horse top stop it. The pups have not learned to control themselves yet and fatalies uisually involve older dogs jumping my pups. I have mentioned the 6 1/2 mo old that killed an 85lb male dobe in about 15 second. The dobe was a dog killer. The older dogs just take contol and make rotties and the rest submit. Like I said Maren, these are not sport dogs. They have been bred for 25 years to do what they do. A little knowkedge is a dangerous thing Maren, and you are one dangerous person. Here is a story I just remembered. Sold Pistol Pete to a lady up in the mopuntainms above Sonora. Big male and he loved her grandkids. When the kids visited, they set up a tent and slept down by the pond. She went to check on them and opened the flap on the tent and the dog took her down. Luckily the dog realized you it was befor he really hurt her. Scared the lady so bad they got rid of him....but no one messed with those kids. You still think you know more about these dogs than I do Maren.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> My 3 dogs from that trio were composed of an old male husky/Rottweiler mix that I still own who is fearful, the male Mal/GSD who I have since sold and who was a wash from Schutzhund (so his reaction wasn't surprising), and my current male Mal who was something like 14-15 months old with no protection training on him at the time. That's kind of the point though...my dog Fawkes genetically "has it," but since he was both quite young and had no training at that point, he had little or no reaction to a drunk stranger when being handled by my husband. I think now that he's about 3.5 years old and now has had some protection training on him, he'd act a bit different.  But then again, I simply don't know unless I was to test him in a real life scenario. Which is why I must stay pretty self deprecating on the matter as I'd rather be pleasantly surprised rather than painfully disappointed. :lol: Having not started bitework until he was 3, I think he's coming along okay, but I still don't talk smack about how awesome my dog is as a firebreather. :smile:


No, you just talk smack about everthing you don't really know. You don't talk smack about your dogs because you know, down deep, what you have. Most people really do.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> > Then you get a breed like mine that doesn't have to be taught to protect. They just do it.
> >
> >
> > > And to think, you have made a fool out of yourself for numerous pages just because of this answer because you don't have a clue about what you are talking about. You don't have any understanding of the difference breeding makes outside of thinking you do. These are terriers....they hunt to kill, not for the fun of it. When it comes to people they are very forgiving but when triggered, they will hurt you. I have had them going out the window of the truck after people in an incident of road rage and it was everything I could do top hang onto the hair on their backs. I know when these dogs are serious. The guy ran to his car when he saw them coming out the window. That was on the edge of a hwy in a service station. totally foreign element for these dogs but, the guy was yelling at me because I told him to go fk himself. You would do yourself a service to quit while people still think education makes all the difference.
> > ...


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> No, you just talk smack about everthing you don't really know. You don't talk smack about your dogs because you know, down deep, what you have. Most people really do.


Wait a second, I am the one who talks smack about something I don't really know? Yes, because it turns out you've got total mastery at the motivational/marker training thing. :lol: And even if I had the "best" (whatever that means...) dog on the planet, I would not feel the need to do so. Not how I roll.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Wait a second, I am the one who talks smack about something I don't really know? Yes, because it turns out you've got total mastery at the motivational/marker training thing. :lol: And even if I had the "best" (whatever that means...) dog on the planet, I would not feel the need to do so. Not how I roll.


And to think all I said was" you need to get a dog like mine that is naurally protective."

Your unabashed ignorance just leaves me shaking my head.


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## Al Curbow (Mar 27, 2006)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> Maybe in your case, but others react the same and have mals, DS, GSD's and so on.
> In my opinion, this difference in culture is also one of the reasons why the "breedingprogram" won't work (good enough) so far, and stil more and more dogs are imported from this side of the pound.
> 
> Dick


Dick, from reading some of your posts I get the feeling that you don't have full control over your dogs? Is that why they can't be around people? Does to much control break them down? I'm curious why the culture has anything to do with it, it's an obedience thing. I'm in charge NOT my dogs, that's why we're top of the food chain. If my dog feels so insecure that it needs to bite or kill a little kid I would simply kill the dog. A dog that needs to kill a kid has a temperament/ confidence problem,


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Don Turnipseed said:


> He wouldn't take the dog there because to many of the sport dogs show aggression. As I have said, these dogs won't tolerate other dogs that show aggression to them. He simply thought it was a bad idea.


Ahh..okay, it was more about possible dog aggression then?


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## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

I thought the general idea was that they are dogs with much higher levels of drive, dominance, aggression, etc...and that puts them outside of the control you can expect with a most working dogs


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

I am saying the Dr. wasn't comfortable because he didn't know if dogs may be loose etc etc. He saw it as looking for trouble. Personally, I would have taken the dog.










The dog in this picture. What do you see? You see a dog that has the genetics to bite....not protect. Has to be taught when to protect. This particular dog has fear written all over it's face and that is why it is putting on the dog so to speak. Without training, the only thing this dog is going to protect is itself. The leash is slack, The dog has no intention of aggressing. If the handler took that slack leash of and move the dog would exit the drivers side. It really doesn't matter that the owner rationalizes that this is only the second time they have done this scenario ....the dog is scared. With enough repetitions the dog may get comfortable enough with this one scenario so it isn't so obvious. If the dog was genuinely protective, it would be coming through the window. There is a big difference in a dog that is genetically wired to bite and one that is wired to protect. You can try to teach a dog when to protect that is genetically prone to bite as in the german and dutch breeds. You don't have to teach a protective dog to protect. The latter has the discretion to get the job done without biting or biting if it is the only way. Go back and look at that picture and tell me I am wrong.


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Now that is a strawman argument/diversion. Your the one that jumped on my comment about getting one of my dogs that is a natural protector and calling itm BS. My dogs have been bred for an entirely different pupose. I have had to stop them from hurting people several times and I know when these dogs are serious.. You call bullshit and I say bring it on and you make me out to be the bad guy. LOL. There are dogs out there that are natural protectors and they work on instinct. These dogs are bred for different things than yours are.
> 
> I will tell you a true story. I tried to get a doctor, that lives close to where Carol and Jeff had the last event, to take his dog, one of mine, over there. He even called Carol I believe. I wanted people to get an idea of what I talk about. The doctor, was afraid some of the dogs there may have more aggression than sense and decided against taking the dog. A nationally known professional retriever trainer trained this dog for birds. He gave the Dr. a long lesson on how to read the dog so nobody, or their dogs got hurt. This trainer has trained a number of my dogs.



Has the good Doctor ever heard of a leash ?


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## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

^^ Don, not sure if its exactly what you are talking about, but the protection/vs working dog issue is what switched me over from all the 'guard' breeds to the herders.

There was a time when I thought a presa from red star, or a bandog from stock or lucero (not to mention the various AB's, cane corso's, etc, etc, etc) were the ultimate protector, but the more I found out (including talking with all of them and eventually passing on the opportunity of getting a pup from them), the more it seemed like all hype. It turned out they are usually not capable of working at all, and where likely to get run by a traniner and/or end up cowering behind their owner.

So my #1 goal was a dog that would not back down and get run (and if I got a pup, a breed and line that would produce a higher % of pups able to work), and that is with GSD's, Mals, and Dutchies. I agree that most must be taught to protect, but what guard/protection breeds are you talking about that are naturals?

All Ive seen is that everything from presas to caucasian ovtcharka's is fear/sharpness if anything and cant be counted on. Seems like a rottie would be the most legit for that type, but will also work


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> I am saying the Dr. wasn't comfortable because he didn't know if dogs may be loose etc etc. He saw it as looking for trouble. Personally, I would have taken the dog.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Uh, for this exercise, we do not want the dog to come out of the window. They lose full points for the scenario if they do as it's likely a combination of protection of the handler and the property, not how well you can send em and "sic em." That's part of the sport and that's why it's called "training." You have to be in control of the dog because dogs don't always make the best decisions on their own left to their own devices.  The car jacking scenario can be difficult for a lot of dogs because it's going to be inherently more defense than prey driven and some would argue all defensive drive comes from fear. I don't think she was "scared" though. A bit unsure, yes, but scared, no. She wouldn't come forward at all and she'd stay right next to me on the driver's side tail tucked if she was, knowing her as I do. For all practical purposes though, regardless of the emotional state of the dog, anyone who is going to stick their hand in that car window even after a threat display from my little 48 lbs manstopper (haha) is likely going to need to be turned aside with a gun.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Matt, I am not referring to any particular breed. What I was getting at, which pretty much encompasses all breed that are used, there is a misconception of what protection vs protective is. No one breeds for protective dogs, no one. They breed for protection dogs. Protection for civil work, protective for sport work. Selenas dog are bred for protection(wired to bite) Non of the dogs bred for this are safe around kids. Protective dogs are a whole different ball game, they will die to protect the kids. No way they would harm one. Over the years, the meaning of the terminology has been lost on everyone. 

Dick and Selenas dogs are protection dogs. Think about this scenario, You have 4 people in front of you. Two mean you harm. Selenas dogs do protect and they will bite all 4 people. You have been well protected but you have two innocent casualties. Same scenario with a very protective dog with no training. He protects you because to him, the sun raises and sets on you, he instinctively takes down the to that mean to harm you. They can read people.

The picture Maren posted, Don't quote me as I am not interested enough to go back and get an exact quote. I believe she said the dog had the genes to protect. It does not. It has the genes to bite, not for being protective. Judging from the look in the dogs eyes, even biting will be on a wish and a prayer and it will be to protect itself if cornered....or if run through each possible scenario until it is comfortable enough to pass.

Hope that explains my perspective.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

The dog is scared Maren. Look at the posturing it is doing and has no intention of coming out the window. You could take the leash off that dog and it wouldn't come out the window. Look at the dogs eyes. Thanks for posting the picture anyway. You won't find a serious dog doing what that dog is doing. He would at least be trying to get to the window and they don't posture like that unless you are actually holding them back with the leash....the leash would never be slack like that.
Go ahead and ask for opinions because I am not going to debate you again. Any novice can see what is going on.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> \
> The picture Maren posted, Don't quote me as I am not interested enough to go back and get an exact quote. *I believe she said the dog had the genes to protect.* It does not. It has the genes to bite, not for being protective. Judging from the look in the dogs eyes, even biting will be on a wish and a prayer and it will be to protect itself if cornered....or if run through each possible scenario until it is comfortable enough to pass.
> 
> Hope that explains my perspective.


I said no such thing. The dog in the picture is my rescue female, hence why I keep calling her HER. Try to keep up. I don't know her genetic background and she started bitework when she was 5 years old. My male dog's father was a police dog and a highly titled sport dog as was his mother. I was likely referring to that. That particular picture is actually her opening her mouth right before she bit the bite wedge the decoy has. So while she's no super star, she does bite, I can assure you. 

And with that, I'm off to go train a double training session and won't be back til tonight, woo hoo!


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Put some pictures of Faulks up doing his thing.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

The original posters dog which caused the concern has pit in it which is a protective dog and notorioulsy good with kids. Can't comment on the other half of the breeding. With crosses it is up for grabs.

Another breed of dog that is known for being naturally protective is the Cheasapeake Bay retriever. ...and they do bite also.

Just happened to think of that while havinmg breakfast. Now I am going out to work in the dogs yards also. LOL But, I do take breaks and will be back in off and on.


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Al Curbow said:


> Dick, from reading some of your posts I get the feeling that you don't have full control over your dogs? Is that why they can't be around people? Does to much control break them down? I'm curious why the culture has anything to do with it, it's an obedience thing. I'm in charge NOT my dogs, that's why we're top of the food chain. If my dog feels so insecure that it needs to bite or kill a little kid I would simply kill the dog. A dog that needs to kill a kid has a temperament/ confidence problem,


You are right. I'm not in control, but that is why i'm a shitty trainer with shitty dogs and without any result.:?

Dick


ps

Oh yeah, I forgot. You are the best, with the best dogs and the best results, my sensei.....


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## Tommy O'Hanlon (Feb 21, 2008)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> You are right. I'm not in control, but that is why i'm a shitty trainer with shitty dogs and without any result.:?
> 
> Dick
> 
> ...


Great stuff, i love a Dutchman with a sense of humour!!!!!!!!!!

I was brought up on a farm if i went to the cows when i was young i got my arse kicked, same happened with my kids and i see the same happening with my grand kids, the only problem with common sense is it;s not common
Tommy


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Al Curbow said:


> Dick, from reading some of your posts I get the feeling that you don't have full control over your dogs? Is that why they can't be around people? Does to much control break them down? I'm curious why the culture has anything to do with it, it's an obedience thing. I'm in charge NOT my dogs, that's why we're top of the food chain. If my dog feels so insecure that it needs to bite or kill a little kid I would simply kill the dog. A dog that needs to kill a kid has a temperament/ confidence problem,


Now i know this was directed at Dick and Its not my place to reply but fk it.....it aint ever stopped me before and it wont stop me now.

Since when is a dog that shows character insecure ? Just since a dog will bite or kill does not make it insecure one bit...Your post makes me wonder if you even know what a dog is to begin with but thats a whole other can of beans now isnt it....btw where did you come up with the whole kidkilling idea ? I thought we were talking about PREVENTING problems and using our brains when it came to the interaction between child and dog? must be me huh....just becoze some people dont want to risk their kids does not mean they automaticly have a kidkiller at home it just means they have brains and they are using them instead of trying to perhaps force something before its time. 

And now im going to be a real bitch and speak my personal piece on the culture difference that I also see when it comes to training and breeding and working dogs over here and in the USA...now im not trying to be offensive but this is what I see...people running around ordering DVD's from leerburg and balabanov and Eillis and whoever else seems to be the moments foremost authority on dogs...and i see people asking about books on how to do whatever with their dog and i see people making the extreme effort of trying to follow the rules of these dogs and be HUMANE with the dogs, now come over here and try and find one of those dvd's or books or guru's for that matter ? you will be hardpressed to find one...we do not use books and dvd'd to tell us how to raise, treat and train our dogs, we look at the dog in question and deal accordingly...no book needed...we deal with our dog as if its a DOG, so not in the HUMANE sence of the word since the word itself says it all HUMAN(E) you can not treat a dog as a human orbring human traits in to it and i see a lot of that happening anyway and the dog is worse of for it in my eyes.....we treat the dog for what it is....

now lots of folks are going to take offense at my mentioning of using books and dvd's but its not intended...this is not always a bad thing but its not the ONLY way to raise and train a good workingdog....reading a book or watching a dvd does not per definition a good dog or handler make...people focus to much on what the book/dvd says anin the meantime they forget to look at their dog coze " the book told em so" 

and now feel free to get angry and tell me im Im an idiot that dont know what she's talking about


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

Excellent post, Alice


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Alice Bezemer said:


> and now feel free to get angry and tell me im Im an idiot that dont know what she's talking about


You DON"T know what you are talking about. You're a stupid European who likes the "killerdogs", remember.....:razz:;-)

Dick


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Heck Alice, that was a good post. I never read a dog book in my life. I have tried but when I read the absolute bullsh!t that is in them I just put them on the shelf. Are we having fun in that penalty box yet??


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

selena van leeuwen said:


> you don"t know what you are talking about. You're a stupid european who likes the "killerdogs", remember.....:razz:;-)
> 
> dick


lmao


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

You know whats funny I read how people want these hard ass dogs and call me and I'm sure others on here and then get them and say Oh I didn't think the dog wasnt going to be that and then pussy out and kill the dog or give it away to a shelter or rescue or something of that sort. Its gotten old, folks if you want a normal dog then buy one, if you want a good hard working dog than take the precautions or stay out of the game. Its got nothing to do with ****ed up nerves or some shit like that, it has to do with you being a ****ed up handler and owner. Get your shit together as a owner and you won't have issues hell I was raised around these so called kid killers still here, my son is 4 hes still here, got a baby on the way in april she'll still be here. Its called reponsibility and brains those two together will work wonders, try it some dam time.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> You DON"T know what you are talking about. You're a stupid European who likes the "killerdogs", remember.....:razz:;-)
> 
> Dick


Hey if people call wanting to give them back get in touch with me I take them and feed my kids to them HAHAHA.;-)


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> You DON"T know what you are talking about. You're a stupid European who likes the "killerdogs", remember.....:razz:;-)
> 
> Dick


who me ? ******* whistles innocently*******

I like my dogs well behaved if you please (tries not to choke on that particular comment)

and ofcourse i dont know what im talking about! Im a woman and im a blond to boot !


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Alice Bezemer said:


> Now i know this was directed at Dick and Its not my place to reply but fk it.....it aint ever stopped me before and it wont stop me now.
> 
> Since when is a dog that shows character insecure ? Just since a dog will bite or kill does not make it insecure one bit...Your post makes me wonder if you even know what a dog is to begin with but thats a whole other can of beans now isnt it....btw where did you come up with the whole kidkilling idea ? I thought we were talking about PREVENTING problems and using our brains when it came to the interaction between child and dog? must be me huh....just becoze some people dont want to risk their kids does not mean they automaticly have a kidkiller at home it just means they have brains and they are using them instead of trying to perhaps force something before its time.
> 
> ...


Firstly, I don't have any objection to keeping kids and dogs however one judges it works for them and their animal.

On the subject of books and dvd's...we are at a real disadvantage over here with HUGE geographical distances between places, and not having the great dog culture you enjoy. There is no one with a malinois within a 3 hour drive of me let alone any kind of trainer. So alas, I have gotten plenty of ideas from books, dvd's, WDF and have a better trained dog because of it. Not to say I don't make up my own mind about how I will proceed according to what I think is right for me and the dog...I am nobody's bitch LOL.

You can just go down to the club and pick the brains of generations of dog handlers who all know the dogs and lines they are working with in a way most here will never know. You can look at a dog and say "that impresses me" and you will know how they got to that result. I may have that luxury with some types of search work, but not so with ob and bitework as I just don't have the access to kind of stuff.

I would say that you too have your gurus. I know a dutch fellow I know keeps telling me to buy Dick Staal's book as an example.

I totally get what you are saying in your post though.


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Are we having fun in that penalty box yet??



By the looks of it we aint ever getting out either LOL....you bringin more Bud lite ? im thirsty!


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## lynn oliver (May 30, 2010)

I asked a question about books, I never suggested they would be my only point of reference! I have kept dogs for over 30yrs have never had a problem with agression, had Dobes, mongrels JRs now got Dobe,GSD and JR. I don't practice pack theory or for that matter any theory, I use my instincts and I have dogs that suit me and my family. They live in harmony with kids, cats , a miserable parrot and chickens free range in my garden, they just have to get on and they do. Is that just luck? I always want to increase my knowledge and hope I will always be learning in a variety of ways. I attend a club every week and I attend as many seminars as possible, I consider myself a novice and I am keen to pick up information, but the working dog world is often a hostile place! Books and DVDs are not so judgemental, I suppose I want to put words and sense to my instincts.
Best wishes Lynn


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Alrighty folks you want the perfect situation heres a good one for you to watch in this you get the whole package tied up into one prefect companion.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8avOiTUcD4Y


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

LOL the trunk monkey ! ill have the burglar retrieval system please !

saves me from locking a killerdog in the trunk every day


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Great Harry. That kept me lughing more than some of these threads. Love iot when the monkey hgeld up that donut


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## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Heck Alice, that was a good post. I never read a dog book in my life. I have tried but when I read the absolute bullsh!t that is in them I just put them on the shelf. Are we having fun in that penalty box yet??



[-X[-X[-X Im sorry I have to laugh at this lol.... ummm Koehler??? ring any bells??? Havent you stated here that you have the books, read the books, and trained the last dog posting updates in a thread on this board going by the directions in the book??? or maybe it was just "something" like that lol :-o:-o :-s:-s :-$:-$ :-k:-k :twisted::twisted:

just curious :-#

t


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

tracey delin said:


> [-X[-X[-X Im sorry I have to laugh at this lol.... ummm Koehler??? ring any bells??? Havent you stated here that you have the books, read the books, and trained the last dog posting updates in a thread on this board going by the directions in the book??? or maybe it was just "something" like that lol :-o:-o :-s:-s :-$:-$ :-k:-k :twisted::twisted:
> 
> just curious :-#
> 
> t


I do have the books, I have tried to read them several times with no success. The trainer sent me lesson plans for what I was doing and they reduced the book down to a couple of pages. I am going to try to read the first book as far as what is pertinent and continue Jacks training. I did read the first two chapters. I have 3 books do to no knowing they were all different. I have the novice, open, and tracking. I have never even opened the second 2. I think I did mention Dan was walking me through it in the first Koehler thread.


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

Don where do you live in CA again? I may wanna take a trip one of these days to come look at your dogs and setup.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Here is what I worked off of Tracy. This is lesson 3. This is what he gives to his classes. No, I didn't do the required reading at the end of each lesson. LOL I just wanted to test the method some to see how the dogs reacted actually. I don't like training.

Do not worry about the heeling post.


Dan's Elite Dog Training Lesson # 3

Discipline

Sit Stay - Hold left hand in front of dog's nose,give command "stay" and pivot directly in front of and facing the dog, then pivot back into place. Leave on RIGHT foot.

HEELING POST

Use a pole for a heeling post for a dog that heels wide. 

EXERCISE FINISH 

After completing any exercise, take one heeling step forward. Then praise the dog. 
(This is called "exercise finished".) Use the "heel" command and insist on the automatic sit. 

STAND

1, place right hand on the leash close to collar, while reaching over dog under flank area of the dog and raising up into a stand position with left arm. When dog is in the standing position pet on the shoulders. Correct if he moves. No verbal command for two days. 

Days one and two

1,Dogs should be corrected if they don't sit automatically upon a halt. No verbal command!
2,Practice "sit stay" ,stand in front of the dog for "ten seconds, one step and twenty seconds two steps" 
3,Continue heeling and heeling post.
4,Practice "stand", complete stand with "exorcize finish" NEVER let the dog sit from the stand until you complete the finish. 

Days three and four
1,"sit stay" 3 steps 30 seconds 4 steps forty seconds. Loose leash on stay, correct as needed. Remember to circle counter clockwise. 
2, Continue all phases of heeling work.
3,Give dog the stand command. 

Days five and six
1, sit stay one minute. Let family pet. Family may not use the dogs name as they pet the dog! If he moves correct!
3, Dog should stand for one minute.

NEXT CLASS ; dog should do a one minute sit stay at six feet, one minute stand, automatic sit,heeling should be more polished and dog should be sitting straight. 

Bibliography; 1 Read pp 71-87 and pp 105 - 113. 
2, practice WITHOUT dog; a, sit corrections -p 67 b teach sit stay p.78 c correct sit stay- p.82 d stand p 105

Sincerely,
Dan Salb
Dan's Elite Dog Training
Easton MD.
(410)770-9789 www.danselitedogtraining.com


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## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

I honestly REALLY dont give a hoot but just for funnies.... how is it that you KNOW you are doing Koehler and not Dans interpretation of Koehler? 

t


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Training by numbers  

The link to Dans website doesn't seem to work.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

tracey delin said:


> I honestly REALLY dont give a hoot but just for funnies.... how is it that you KNOW you are doing Koehler and not Dans interpretation of Koehler?
> 
> t


Because I did muddle through a few of the chapters as I said anf his teacher is Tony Anchata, who worked woth Bill Koehler and took over Bill's buisiness after Bill died. Tony lives a few hours from here and if Dan gets out here this year, we will probably go visit him. It is ashamed I don't enjoy training. Met Tom Rose a few years ago and he put one of my dogs through a tracking test. Did good according to him but, not being familiar with that type of tracking I wasn't impressed with what I saw.


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

i like what was posted early on withhold food and with that i would train focus and reward him for staying focused under different distractions building over time to the level you require.

i had a rott with similiar issues and this worked a treat but i was firm when the dog didnt focus on me(have a word to cue him) and looked away i would walk away as he looked away and he did not eat simple after a few days they catch on very fast and my dog would not dare look away as rotts are very smart and calculating. have a picture in your mind of what you want and use the methods to attain it.

start off small then when you are more confident he will focus on you for say half a min. i started having people call him gentlly to start with and would reward when he looked back at me eventually they dont want to look away they want the food.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Jennifer Coulter said:


> Firstly, I don't have any objection to keeping kids and dogs however one judges it works for them and their animal.
> 
> On the subject of books and dvd's...we are at a real disadvantage over here with HUGE geographical distances between places, and not having the great dog culture you enjoy. There is no one with a malinois within a 3 hour drive of me let alone any kind of trainer. So alas, I have gotten plenty of ideas from books, dvd's, WDF and have a better trained dog because of it. Not to say I don't make up my own mind about how I will proceed according to what I think is right for me and the dog...I am nobody's bitch LOL.
> 
> ...


OMG, yes, totally! Is it sad that I'm intentionally looking for jobs that are sorta near a decent PSA or ring sport club? Cause driving two hours each way to train for protection sport and nearly an hour each way for herding is getting old (and making me broker than I already am just for gas money!). ](*,) We worked dogs until nearly 11 PM and I didn't get back home until nearly 1 AM. Thank goodness the behaviorist I'm doing an externship with is out of town this week so I can have tomorrow off to sleep in a little! 

Don, I was incidentally going to see if I could get some video of my dogs today since it's been a while, but I was the only one who could show up (besides our decoy) to our more video friendly club today, so no one could take any (I don't have a tripod). Video isn't done so much at the other club I trained at tonight, which is not an uncommon thing. Maybe another time...


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Alice Bezemer said:


> LOL the trunk monkey ! ill have the burglar retrieval system please !
> 
> saves me from locking a killerdog in the trunk every day





Don Turnipseed said:


> Great Harry. That kept me lughing more than some of these threads. Love iot when the monkey hgeld up that donut


Maybe some of these folks will be better of with a monkey then a kid killer, so I figure I throw a iron in the fire to give some folks some options:lol:


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## Tommy O'Hanlon (Feb 21, 2008)

Harry love the trunk monkey had tears rolling down my face, i want the last one
Tommy


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Don, I was incidentally going to see if I could get some video of my dogs today since it's been a while, but I was the only one who could show up (besides our decoy) to our more video friendly club today, so no one could take any (I don't have a tripod). Video isn't done so much at the other club I trained at tonight, which is not an uncommon thing. Maybe another time...




Don't waste your time Maren. You just keep bullshitting your way through life. You put that picture up because you thought it was impressive because you were totally oblivious to what that picture showed. I told you what was happening, as in the dog was scared to death and wanted no where near that window or perp. You, in the state of shock, said the dog wasn't supposed to go out the window Maren, I haven never seen these events. Never been to one. I can still figure out the the leash is there to keep the dog from going out the window....but the damned dog is supposed top at least show the desire and try. Anyone that has been around hard dogs will tell you the same thing. Next you defend your picture with... it was taken right before the bite. Your a real rib tickler Maren, you don't know scared dogs bite. I don't even have to see it. It was a quick warning bite at best ...telling the decoy "you better get away from me and leave me alone". What was it you said. ? Something like the dog bites but you didn't know if it would do it again or if it would actually hold. LMAO Of course you know. If that dog bit it, released immediatly and you know exactly what the dog will do. They say a picture is worth a thousand words. They are... and this one says you know squat about dogs. Now you say you will post a vid. Do yourself a favor kid, get someone to look at it first and tell you what is going on.

I do think you bullshit your way through life Maren. You justify the crap you talk with stories to substantiate your expertise. You said you get paid for consultations, basically, to help people work out problems with their own dogs while your own dogs kill a another at your house, which you denied as long as you could. And also, since it was you, was merely an unfortunate accident.

More recently you wanted to give a post in this thread more creadence so you have worked in child care for 8 long years. You added validity to the fact you know all about hunting because you hunted with you brothers and Ashley just pointed out that you don't split the rib cage in the field. More BS. Get a life besides hounding me Maren. You don't even know how good dogs act because you are a rescue dog person.
I am hoping you have enough sense to just leave it alone now but I seriously doubt you have that much common sense.


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## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

no dog is as dangerous as a chimpanzee, they are nothing but godless killing machines


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

You'd be way more interesting and fruitful to debate with if your reading comprehension wasn't composed of filling any gaps with whatever fiction comes into your head. Have you gotten checked out for dementia cause your habit of making stuff up that I say or don't say is cause for legitimate concern. Or perhaps should go back to your Cliff notes version of Koehler since you can't even muddle through the real thing. Which I did do when I was probably 12 or 13 no problem cause, well, it ain't exactly Dostoyevsky.... :lol::lol::lol:


-I don't go deer hunting with my brothers (where did this one even come from?). But I do know enough that you certainly can split the ribcage if you want to remove the heart, lungs, etc. in the field if you're not interested in a trophy. It's a bit safer than blindly reaching up into the chest through the diaphragm with a knife and cutting them out by the thoracic inlet with a knife where it's hard to see and feel.
-I have indeed worked at a church in town since 2002 doing childcare for infants to up to 10 years old
-I haven't had a paid consult in about 3-4 years (don't have the time). It was for common pet problems, not sport training. 
-one of my dogs killed a foster dog because my husband left him out and that's horrible, but a dog from your breeding killed another dog and you act like it's a badge of honor about how tough and serious they are? :-k
-you keep saying I look foolish, but you don't even know what the exercise entails. :lol: If you had actually trained in PSA, the car jacking exercise is probably more similar to a defense of the object where it holds its ground, not straining like at the end of the leash trying to launch after the decoy out of the car. It's supposed to stay put and hold its ground, bark until the decoy makes the move for the car, THEN it bites inside the car or right by the window frame while the decoy puts pressure on it. Some dogs will put their paws on the edge of the window, but you're not really supposed to be hanging on for dear life while the dog is trying to drag you out through the window after the guy. Here's a even a video of even an AIREDALE doing the PDC carjacking: :lol:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Td7jxWDTgPs

Speaking of video, one of our decoys finished his editing of the recent video from the same session from where the picture comes from. His musical choice is kind of err...interesting and I honestly don't know the rest of the dogs in the video very well to comment on them. The photo where the bite came from was not quite the same sequence but whatever. 1:53-2:07. She's back tied to the back window frame, I'm not holding onto her. This is my honest evaluation of what I see: I don't see a scared dog, I seen an unsure dog that lacks confidence from experience. Her tail is stiff wagging and out behind her, not tucked. She's not hackling and she's at the frame of the window with an upright posture, not straining but not actively going into avoidance either. Her facial expression looks pretty unsure. Her ears and eyes flicked back to me a few times like "uh, is this alright?" Not surprising for that being the second time she's done it. More experience will bring confidence in the scenario. Is she a maneater? Nah, but would she deter most folks from sticking their hands inside my car? I'd suspect so.

Fawkes is also in this video he put together at about 2:28, though it doesn't show a bite. This is probably his fourth session in the car. He looks a bit more confident that she does (but not perfect, his ears kind of go back and forth a time or two too), but his first session or two actually looked worse than hers as he was really confused what to do. And no, he's not actually barking at Rook, just looks that way from the editing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3X0srsdGADI


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Matt Grosch said:


> no dog is as dangerous as a chimpanzee, they are nothing but godless killing machines


 
:lol::lol::lol: Was just a option:-$


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

This has been my favourite post of this whole thread..





Ryan Pulliam said:


> Just mouthing


 
Ryan, have you taken all this advice on board, and are you clearer on a way forward  ?


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Michelle Kehoe said:


> Don where do you live in CA again? I may wanna take a trip one of these days to come look at your dogs and setup.


Geograhic center of Ca, Michelle. About 40 miles East of Fresno and 30 mi out of Yosemite. Sorry I didn't see this post. Would love to have you. A good time might be if Joby can actually arrange someone to come by and test the dogs s to see if they will actually bite, and to say I told you so. LOL You maybe can do the video....if they bite of course. Actually, I was looking for Joby's post when I found this one. Where are you at?


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3X0srsdGADI


Forgot to add, there's another pretty nice dog whose handler started coming out recently. He is an imported and trained Czech GSD is about all I know about him though. Not sure what his titles are, if any. I believe he used to train with Bob's club? Anyways, he's doing the car jacking scenario for the first time ever at 1:03. Note the slack leash on the back tie and the uncertainty. It'll come. That's why it's called training, after all. 

Don, I incidentally don't really care if your dogs do or don't bite somebody. If they do, that's fine. If they don't, that's fine too. It's more the assertive yet unproven claims about how hardcore and serious protectors they are that are problematic. ;-) 

Example: The UPS guy literally just delivered a package to my front door a few minutes ago and accidentally opened the door about a foot when knocking. All I heard was a low "oh shit..." and Fawkes roaring after him towards the front door. So probably a good thing that he got the door closed as fast as he did. I had Fawkes into a down stay while I opened the door and signed for the package. The poor guy's face was white as a sheet and all he said was "that dog has got some teeth!" That, however, does not make me claim my dog is uber hardcore and super serious either. If he actually DOES protect me from a real situation from a real intruder trying to hurt me, I might make that claim. Maybe. But that's most of the point of having these kinds of dogs as a deterrent so they won't have to.


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## Al Curbow (Mar 27, 2006)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> You are right. I'm not in control, but that is why i'm a shitty trainer with shitty dogs and without any result.:?
> 
> Dick
> 
> ...



Dick,
I'm not sure of the reason for the defensive answer, I didn't mean to offend. I'm just saying that if a dog can't be around people and not bite without a command it's a training issue or a nerve problem.

I also think the distorted view we ( the general we) have of each others cultures may prevent any useful discourse by your answer. I notice some people think that if something is far away and unreachable it's mysterious and must be better, I'll never understand that phenomonon.


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