# on/off lead advantages



## fred karlsson

Hi

Since my dog is 100% off lead in my house and garden I have a question.

Is it better tactically to put him on lead as soon as a danger is evident ?

What would you do?

BR
FK


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## Edward Egan

What are you calling a danger?

It may become a signal to the dog.


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## Bob Scott

If you've got time to leash the dog when "danger is evident" then you should be reaching for a gun. JMHO!


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## Mike Scheiber

Bob Scott said:


> If you've got time to leash the dog when "danger is evident" then you should be reaching for a gun. JMHO!


Or run like a bastard
What the hell is the dog going to do tied up what his job I don't get the PPD crowd
Tactical advantage for fuk sakes just go get Soldier of Fortune rag and twist one off


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## Wayne Conrad

I think it all comes down to control. Just because the dog is off lead around the home does not mean you have control of the dog. Besides, if I have someone comming after me on my property the last thing I want to do is to get 6' from the bad guy. The other thing I have observed when dealing with criminals and the like. They are much braver when the dog is on lead rather then off !!!


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## David Frost

If you have control why would need a leash? tell the dog heel or stay and wait to see what happens. Of course I'm a believer the dog should not engage unless or until he's commanded to do so. 

DFrost


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## fred karlsson

When looking at videos and pictures of PPD in action they are most of the time on lead, when off lead the dog already attacked the decoy.


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## David Frost

fred karlsson said:


> When looking at videos and pictures of PPD in action they are most of the time on lead, when off lead the dog already attacked the decoy.


Perhaps they don't have enough control to be off leash in the presence of a decoy.

DFrost


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: Tactical advantage for fuk sakes just go get Soldier of Fortune rag and twist one off

KILLING ME ROTFLMAO


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## Gerry Grimwood

David Frost said:


> Perhaps they don't have enough control to be off leash in the presence of a decoy.
> 
> DFrost


I have a question regarding control, not defending Fred's point of view or questioning David's, just a question.

I'm going to use the video of Dick van Leeuwen and his dog Spike that was posted here, I know this was a Police dog and it was a training scenario..but when Dick brought him out of the car and approached the corner of that building, the dog was seriously lit up and you know that just by the sounds he was making.

Now, that person was on the other side of a vehicle about 100 ft away..I think if he wasn't leashed he would've just went for the guy, maybe he could've been called off but that's not the point.

Right or wrong, I think that's the way a dog should be especially if someone is claiming to have a Protection dog, but they seldom seem to have this...well, the ones that post the pictures anyway.

So, the question is...can you honestly expect to have a dog that is completely under your control at all times in any situation and still have an effective Protection dog ??


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## Kyle Sprag

"So, the question is...can you honestly expect to have a dog that is completely under your control at all times in any situation and still have an effective Protection dog ??"


I don't think you have an effective protection dog if is NOT under control at all times.


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## David Frost

Can't speak for protection dogs, but I can make any of our patrol dogs fire up like that. I don't like that though. Why not be in control. It would certainly depend on the situation but when trying to gain control of a situation, who needs to be yelling above a barking growling dog. Same when getting ready to do a building search, hard to make an announcement when the dog is doing all the "talking". My sidearm doesn't go off until I make, I don't think the dog should either.

DFrost


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## Gerry Grimwood

Kyle Sprag said:


> I don't think you have an effective protection dog if is NOT under control at all times.


Why wouldn't a dog that would fire up at a distance be equally if not more effective in this area ??

Sure, you'll have some false alarms but seriously aren't most of them false to begin with ? Wouldn't proactive be better than reactive if someone is worried about their safety ?


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## Jeff Oehlsen

You are taking a situation where the dog is in training, and is a HELL of a dog, (big big fan of this dog) and comparing it to a PP dog.

Stop, just stop. Some of the hardest hitting dogs I have EVER seen do not compare to Spike.

Use a different dog, as just the fact you are using a phenominal dog will lend weight to a stupid PP dog discussion.

Feel shame.

The dog should be under control, and if your life is in that kind of danger that you need to be afraid of people at a distance, get a gun and a permit and keep the dog with you so you don't accidently shoot it.

Stupid PP people and their out of control dogs. [-X[-X[-X


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## Kyle Sprag

Gerry Grimwood said:


> Why wouldn't a dog that would fire up at a distance be equally if not more effective in this area ??
> 
> Sure, you'll have some false alarms but seriously aren't most of them false to begin with ? Wouldn't proactive be better than reactive if someone is worried about their safety ?


Just because a dog fires up doesn't mean it is protective.

The handler should tell the dog when it is time to Fire up.

All My dogs know how to "fire up" with a word, even the pets.


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## Gerry Grimwood

I was just using that vid as a comparison of a dog that is ready to go vs how some people seem to believe their dog will lick the baby's face until someone shows a threat and then jump into action like a superhero or something.

Comparing that dog and some others to what is usually seen in PPD threads would be like comparing a peach to a boil on someones ass.

There may well be PPD's out there similar, but you will never hear about them in PPD threads.


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## Gerry Grimwood

Kyle Sprag said:


> All My dogs know how to "fire up" with a word, even the pets.


But, would the intent be the same and could they carry it out ?


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: There may well be PPD's out there similar, but you will never hear about them in PPD threads.

Really really doubt that. How many people would have something that extrordinary and not want to show it off ??

I cry bullshit that they are out there hidden. : )


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## Gerry Grimwood

Maybe I should have said, The people that may have these types of dogs would probably be more low key and have no reason to pump themselves up.


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## Kyle Sprag

Gerry Grimwood said:


> But, would the intent be the same and could they carry it out ?


 
I am not all that into the PP thing but I have had some that would and some that would not.


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## Chris McDonald

I don’t know too much about this but wouldn’t you guys who have and use patrol dogs rather take the lead off when sending for a bite if time allows? Does anyone know why you would put your dog on lead if “danger is evident”? 
Lots of logical, mature, experienced answers here, almost wish Lee and Elmo would chirp in.


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## Chris McDonald

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: There may well be PPD's out there similar, but you will never hear about them in PPD threads.
> 
> Really really doubt that. How many people would have something that extrordinary and not want to show it off ??
> 
> I cry bullshit that they are out there hidden. : )


Hey Jeff, I aint saying I am into the PPD thing my dog is a pet before anything else. Thanks to this forum I can really understand the gooeyness of 95 percent of the people who say they do the PP thing. And I aint saying I am delivering but what are you guys talking about talking about regarding this “extraordinary and not want to show it off” stuff? I am missing something. What would need to be seen to be considered extraordinary?


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## Jim Nash

It depends on the situation for me. Some scenes can be very hectic and make it hard for the dog to target correctly . I use about an 8'' street lead in case I have to send the dog . Even then I have to know the dog has the right target and in most cases I try to take the lead off if I can . I had a badguy get ahold of the street lead before on my first dog when he was new and the dog got thrown around pretty good . When the dog finally got a good hold of him the guy really regretted it .

Luckily my dog wasn't hurt and it taught this new young dog to really commit and hold on from then on . He was a much more serious dog from then on . The guys on the street would show up at the emergency room to see what the badguys looked like after that . He's been gone for 7 years now and people still talk about him .

I have my dog on lead going into MOST situations and prepare to send him off lead if needed . Building searches are done off lead and I also do off lead area searches but you have to believe the suspect is the only one in that area and still be able to direct the dog or call it back if there are innocent people in the search area .


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## fred karlsson

Will do more off lead protrection work since I am not likely to have time to get the dog on lead if a problem arises even though on lead is to prefer.

Any good situations to practise on lead?
would your dogs stay by your side an wait bait commando or go into "autopilote" protection mode if threated?


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## fred karlsson

should be "Any good situations to practise off lead?"


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## David Frost

fred karlsson said:


> should be "Any good situations to practise off lead?"


We have an exercise we call "false run". The dog is off leash, at the heel. the decoy charges the handler or he may run away from the handler. Basically he can do anything but touch the dog or the handler. The proper response is remain in the heel position. they may shake, bark, quiver, I've seen them back up an inch or so, salivate even saw one nip the handler on the knee, haha. They can not however, break position.

DFrost


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## Butch Cappel

The police dog video you mention is a good example of what your thinking about. The comparison to a police dog at the scene though is not applicable here because the officers will have benefit of weapons and lots of back up before the dog is even taken out of the car. As a civilian you are also much more restricted in your response, in some states worse than others. So learning the most effective tactics for the use of your dog is smart.

As for the gun enthusiasts I might mention that he didn't ask a gun question or even what is _your_ preferred method of self defense. He seems to be asking only about a tactical situation in which he might use his dog, so I think I'll stick to that.

As Mr. Nash has pointed out one reason for 'on leash' is to help target and focus a dog if faced with multiple attackers (common in home invasions) another reason I taught my K9 Teams and stressed to all my Personal Protection customers over the years is the one bullet theory.
(Whoops there I go talking about guns, sorta) 

If you have only one in the chamber you'ld best be sure when you use it, it may be your last chance. 

When working out tactical responses that may have to cover a broad range of situations I start with the mathematical possibilities and then lean to the side of caution. 

If in training your dog does clean crisp outs eight out of ten times. It would seem that if assaulted by two or more people if you sent your dog (firing your one bullet) you have an eighty percent chance of outing and recalling him, if the second assaulter continues on to attack you.

Now factor in the added stress and excitement of a fight that is now all about your dogs very survival, and he don't even know about the one that's behind him going after you. I will give this a an added ten percent risk factor. I now have a mathematical likelihood that if I need to call my dog back to me I will have a seventy percent chance of success.

Now lets say this dog is one of those real high flying American style biters and he nails the guy in the left arm pit, hanging high as the guy screams out in pain and either grabs the dogs collar with his free hand, or simply falls over and lands on the dog. This is not a situation conducive to crisp clean outs and a recall! Factor another twenty percent failure possibility.

Tactically you would now have a fifty-fifty chance your dog is coming back to stop the guy that is beating you about the head and shoulders, with conviction!

Do you want a fifty-fifty chance of survival? I'll stay on leash and get my odds back!

The missing equation for most that think they are doing PP training are these types of questions. I have tried for years to explain that PP training is as much about Tactics and *the dogs fighting skills after the bite* as they are about the basic "Sic em, Bite em, Out em" Your question is a great example of why.


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## Chris McDonald

Nice answers to read.


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## Tanith Wheeler

The only reason I would use a lead in this type of scenario would be to use the dog as a threat.

For example my garage is in a secluded location behind a few houses, one night 3 very large men were breaking into it - I heard the alarm go off, grabbed the dog on lead and went out there.
The presence of a barking, straining gsd on lead was enough to make them run off - the presence of a 20 year old woman would have done little.

Due to the laws in this country, we cannot own guns and certainly couldn't use them. People go to prision for hurting intruders and if I told my dog to bite someone, I would get arrested and the dog destroyed.


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## Jim Nash

What gets complicated in PPD talk is folks have different views of what they want in PPD and how they want to use that PPD . Even though some believe they have the only definition of what a PPD should be they are only letting their ego talk for them . As far as I know there is not 1 excepted standard or definition of what a PPD is or how it should be used .

As a Police Officer and having dealt with victims of robberies and other crimes I've found in most cases if you don't have a gun and only a dog then use it as a deterant and get out of there . Just my opinion .

I'll speak for myself but the major reason I (a PSD handler) give my opinion in PPD discussions is because I feel many PPD people have an unreal and usually unproven expectation of their dog . Having lots of experiance with real engagements I can tell you , you don't really know ( no matter how good or intimidating or hard your dog bites ) if it will do it for real and that can be dangerous for that dog owner and the dog if they are not prepared . 

I've seen plenty of dogs that will look aggresive at the end of a leash or even off leash and may even intially bite but once the badguy fights back the dog does what the handler should of been doing (IMO) and that's turn tail and run . I've heard too many people give an incidence where their dog looked intimidating and even attempted to bite someone and hear them say because of that they know their dog will fight to protect them . Maybe but to what degree ? Usually not too hard once the badguy fights back to protect himself from the dog . 

The first engagement for many PSD's is usually not that great . Just like in it's training it must build confidence and improve . Some are natural many are not . 

In the realworld if you find yourself and your dog in a dangerous situation and you have an avenue of escape take it . Don't let your unproven confidence in your dog get you in an even worse situation . If a PPD trainer tells you you have an unproven dog that will do it for real or tries to sell you one or tries to sell you in how they trained your dog that it would bite for real , I'd find a new trainer quick . 

Fred use you imagination on your training scenerios . I just hope in a real situation if you can avoid a full out confrontation with a badguy you do that instead . Sorry if I'm telling you something you already know . I've just seen some put themselves in bad spots because they thought they had a badass PPD and really didn't .


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## fred karlsson

Fantastic answers! 

This info is not to be found elsewhere. This forum is world class.

Thank you for sharing your experiences.


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## Stelios Sdrolias

a reliable recall and a flat collar with a handle would give you a slight advantage if you recognize the threat early enough.


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## fred karlsson

If you guys get tired of your job you can always start an *independent* company certifying and ranking PPD´s.


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## fred karlsson

Stelios Sdrolias said:


> a reliable recall and a flat collar with a handle would give you a slight advantage if you recognize the threat early enough.


 
would the dog wear it all the time?


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## Butch Cappel

Right on Mr. Nash, I teach the 'Exit Corridor' is the tactic of first choice for PP dog owners anticipating an assault situation. This is also another reason why your dog on a leash is desirable, With proper tactics in your exit, a leashed dog gives you a better chance of controlling your attackers.

Proper Exit with a dog on leash also gives you about a 7-9 foot safety zone the attacker has to cross to get to you. this will of course depend on the length of your leash.

I would also repeat what Mr Nash said about not really knowing if your dog will _really_ stop a man on the street no matter WHO the trainer was. Why do I say this? 

Again when working out a tactical strategy you do the measurable math factors and lean to the side of caution. If your dog has never been used on the street only two things can happen when you first ask them to fight for you; 1 They will bite and win 2. They will fold like an old pair of jeans. 

That gives you a mathematical possibility back to that old Fifty-fifty That aint good enough for this cowboy, not with your life on the line. Until your dog has done it take the mathematically more likely tactic use the Exit Corridor. With proper exit moves and a leashed dog I believe the success percentage goes up to 75% in an exit and if that fails you *still* have the "Sic em" option, Always nice to have a fifty-fifty hole card 

Oh and Mr. Karlsen you wrote; _"If you guys get tired of your job you can always start an independent company certifying and ranking PPD´s."_ can't speak for the others in this thread, but that's what I've been doing for twenty plus years now and I still learn something new all the time.

Butch Cappel
www.k9ps.com


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## fred karlsson

*a "flat collar with a handle flat collar with a handle"* 

Would not give you the " *7-9 foot safety zone the attacker has to cross to get to you*"

or?


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## Lee Robinson

Butch,

You make some excellent points. Having a decoy freeze in training to teach the out is great, but I wonder...since in the real world the only way an "attacker" would freeze would be if they passed out, why don't more TRIALS have decoys that are trying to flee while the dog is called out. Now, I say "flee" because if the attacker is still attacking we probably wouldn't want to call our dogs off, but if the attacker is trying to quit, should we not be able to out our dogs in order to prevent excessive use of force?

That said, I have never seen this done in a trial. All the trials I am aware of have a decoy that gives that nice "passed out" freeze while we out or dogs.

Interesting point. If nothing else, it would be nice to see this in a "multiple attack" scenerio...having the first decoy trying to flee (not fighting but trying to get away) while a second attacking decoy approaches the HANDLER (not the dog). 

That, IMO, would take great control. Thanks for the input. You bring a level of realistic thinking that I would like to see more often on these forums.


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## Kyle Sprag

Lee Robinson said:


> Butch,
> 
> You make some excellent points. Having a decoy freeze in training to teach the out is great, but I wonder...since in the real world the only way an "attacker" would freeze would be if they passed out, why don't more TRIALS have decoys that are trying to flee while the dog is called out. Now, I say "flee" because if the attacker is still attacking we probably wouldn't want to call our dogs off, but if the attacker is trying to quit, should we not be able to out our dogs in order to prevent excessive use of force?
> 
> That said, I have never seen this done in a trial. All the trials I am aware of have a decoy that gives that nice "passed out" freeze while we out or dogs.
> 
> Interesting point. If nothing else, it would be nice to see this in a "multiple attack" scenerio...having the first decoy trying to flee (not fighting but trying to get away) while a second attacking decoy approaches the HANDLER (not the dog).
> 
> That, IMO, would take great control. Thanks for the input. You bring a level of realistic thinking that I would like to see more often on these forums.


 
In Mondioring and French Ring the Decoy doesn't stop working the dog until the Out Command is Given by the Handler.

What trials have you seen and who is We?

There can and has been Multiple attack scenerios like you write in Mondoiring, in every trial at the Two and Three levels


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## Chris McDonald

Ha, Le is here, is this thread over? Or has it just begun? Whatever happens is gona be really stupid


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## Gerry Grimwood

The more I read about PPD's and the people that train them, the more confused I get.

For example Mr Cappel has for sale on his site a DVD titled " Personal Protection training without a decoy" Well, lots of people do some type of bitework training without a decoy but he further states this....

Quote from the site,

*If you understand and work your dog with this system, you will be able to go to any one willing to put on equipment and see your dog engage in a bite and more important, after the bite, a fight, that should control the bad guy (Notice I didn't say “grip” I did NOT want my Guard dogs to “grip”)*

So, the dog never has to see a decoy of any type other than maybe the owner and he will engage anybody ? Suddenly I want to believe in Santa Claus again.


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## Kyle Sprag

IMO the one true way to see what you got in Training if you don't have a variety of oportunities for live fight and bite is with a Muzzle, How the dog works on the loosing end of a muzzle fight is where it is at.


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## Jim Nash

While I agree muzzle training is a great tool to help prepare a dog . It's still a big jump Kyle . I've been helping with one of our new dogs on the street . We've been pushing this dog in muzzle , hidden sleeves and bitesuits . 

The dog has been doing good . Bites super hard and takes the fight to you in muzzle . I took it to him in several muzzle fights . He left me with a black eye , lumps and bruises everywhere . He had his first real engagement recently and it was horrible . I would have never guessed it seeing this dog in training . If it wasn't for how well he has done in training he'd be gone already . His probationary period may be up if he doesn't show a marked improvement quick .


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## David Frost

In spite of all we do, we just don't know until the feces hits the ocillating air handler.

DFrost


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## Chris McDonald

Fred, this is not of your question so I hope you don’t mind me asking Jim and the other guys this. Is there anything special that you look for a dog to do in a muzzle? I have heard that certain were dogs hit is good and bad when in a muzzle. I have worked my dog in a muzzle a few time when with more experienced guys. I have recently got a muzzle and plan on training with it here and there. Maybe one of these days I will start a thread. The times I have been with more experience people with muzzle work I concentrated my time on trying to learning the safety side of things for both the dog and decoy. In a few sentences what are some of the things you would tell someone with an inexperienced eye the dog is doing and why?


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## Jim Nash

It's a tough question because I have to see and know more about a dog before I can give a good opinion of them in muzzle work . Some good dogs don't take to the muzzle well and it effects how they work in muzzle . 

Took my current dog a VERY long time even to wear the muzzle . Muzzle work helped him alot and his first real running apprehension was text book muzzle work and not typical of how he hit sleeves or bitesuits . It was high tricep shoulder area and he drove his whole body into the suspect riding him down to the ground . 

Even with that payoff he isn't the dog I would show for a good example of muzzle work . He barks alot while fighting and striking the decoy . I would rather have him trying to bite while striking the decoy . Maybe he is but the bark is out of frustration.... I'm not sure . 

Now generally speaking the weak dogs I see usually hit the ankles or head along with joisting with the decoy . They are in and out , not continuely pushing the fight into the decoy . 

That said , if a dog doesn't do well in a muzzle it doesn't neccessarily mean the dog isn't a good PSD prospect . Like I said some dogs no matter how good they are in real engagements just don't do well with the muzzle .


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## Kyle Sprag

I think what it shows me is the dogs willingnes in a disadvantage or compromised position. The dog has two choices, quit or keep fighting. Not all that different than some of the training and situations Para-military put their trainees and recruits in.


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## Kadi Thingvall

Gerry Grimwood said:


> I was just using that vid as a comparison of a dog that is ready to go vs how some people seem to believe their dog will lick the baby's face until someone shows a threat and then jump into action like a superhero or something.


IMO if a dog is to be a good PPD it should be able to "lick the baby's face" then "jump into action". 99.9% of the time a PPD dog is just a family companion. If it can't hang out with the people it's supposed to protect, it won't be available to be of much use when the time comes. Obviously different people have different family situations, so a PPD being good with babies isn't a requirement in some situations, but you get the idea. 

The vast majority of PPDs go through their entire life not being required to do more then possibly bark at someone (something many people who sell PPDs bank on) but having a dog who can hang out then hit with 110% commitment when needed IMO isn't unrealistic.


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## Kyle Sprag

Kadi Thingvall said:


> IMO if a dog is to be a good PPD it should be able to "lick the baby's face" then "jump into action". 99.9% of the time a PPD dog is just a family companion. If it can't hang out with the people it's supposed to protect, it won't be available to be of much use when the time comes. Obviously different people have different family situations, so a PPD being good with babies isn't a requirement in some situations, but you get the idea.
> 
> The vast majority of PPDs go through their entire life not being required to do more then possibly bark at someone (something many people who sell PPDs bank on) but having a dog who can hang out then hit with 110% commitment when needed IMO isn't unrealistic.


 
I would tend to agree, I have lived with 4 dogs that have had live bites that would fall into what you write.


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## fred karlsson

That is the defenition of a very expensive dog.........


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## Stelios Sdrolias

fred karlsson said:


> *a "flat collar with a handle flat collar with a handle"*
> 
> Would not give you the " *7-9 foot safety zone the attacker has to cross to get to you*"
> 
> or?


If I am not mistaken , the scenario you described had the dog off leash hanging around in the garden..
So the quickest way imo is for the dog to have a handle collar on, so you can have control of him and create a K9 Team in a short period of time.
This is the collar i had in mind








This collar can be on all the time (with small precautions)


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## Lee Robinson

Kyle Sprag said:


> In Mondioring and French Ring the Decoy doesn't stop working the dog until the Out Command is Given by the Handler.
> 
> What trials have you seen and who is We?
> 
> There can and has been Multiple attack scenerios like you write in Mondoiring, in every trial at the Two and Three levels


 
Kyle,

What I was describing was a trial where the decoy does NOT stop moving...either before or after the command. A lot of dogs will out on command once the decoy freezes. In Modio ring, is the decoy still allowed to struggle to get away (flee) once the out command is given?

I have never seen that in a trial...but I would certainly appreciate some video of something like that.

Chris, 

What part of my post to Butch did you find issue with?


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Do you have a single dog that can do that ??


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## Butch Cappel

Lee 
The active decoy 'out' is a tricky one as far as how to go about it in a trial scenario. On one hand you have to have the dog demonstrate they can do the command, and a decoy freezing works well for that in most disciplines. 

On the other hand if you are training a personal protection dog or a PSD there is another step to take. I think one big difference in the sports and what I will call a street dog, is the sports are looking for the dogs 'bite'. Street dogs you are training for the fight _after_ the initial bite.

The 'out' is also done slightly different. First I think you mentioned getting your dog to 'out' as you approach to remove your dog. Tactically that would only be done by Police. An officer is armed and has backup,and therefore is mathematically in the plus column when approaching a possibly dangerous (and really pissed off) suspect. 

Since this thread started on a tactical PP question (and you know I am a stickler for staying on topic) I'll address the 'out' in PP only and leave the PSD tactics to someone else. 

K9 PRO SPORTS does Personal Protection certification. There is no way to separate the dogs actions in a threatening situation from the handlers decision making at a stressful time, and give an accurate picture (read score sheet) to the competitor, so we have to include the handler in the "out" command. Each exercise was designed not only to see the dogs fighting style and ability but teach or test the handlers decision making. 

As I said _tactically _a police officer can approach a fight and be safer. For a PP handler in a street situation we teach distance is your first priority (remember the 7-9 foot rule?). You will lose points if you approach the decoy. Police do apprehensions, civilians do protection.

We have a six second fight after the bite which winds a lot of decoys. In real life when you add pain, shock, etc. a dog/man fight, is even more wearing on the human. If you are screaming out to the bad guy "I can get the dog off you, if you stand still!" You might be surprised how good there hearing becomes. 

So you are in a tactically safe position, and you order "Out" there is a good chance that the attacker will still be moving, even if he is just trying to put his palms together to pray for quicker relief. As that can happen on the street we do the same thing in K9PS. You will have decoys continues to move after the "out" command, how ever they will not now be aggressively fighting back or you would not have outed the dog in the first place. 

Not all trials have activity after the out command but that is because each trial is designed by the host club, so some do it that way, others do not, it is the hosts call, but we definitely like to continue movement after the "out" command.

And Jeff, Yes Lee does have dogs that will do that. Pretty dang tuff ones too!


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## Kyle Sprag

Lee Robinson said:


> Kyle,
> 
> What I was describing was a trial where the decoy does NOT stop moving...either before or after the command. A lot of dogs will out on command once the decoy freezes. In Modio ring, is the decoy still allowed to struggle to get away (flee) once the out command is given?
> 
> I have never seen that in a trial...but I would certainly appreciate some video of something like that.
> 
> Chris,
> 
> What part of my post to Butch did you find issue with?


What trial was that?

Some dogs are better bitters with Less pressure some better with more, it also has to do with training methods and expectations.

In Mondio Ring and French Ring the decoy stops fighting the dog once the Out command is given, if you don't want to get killed on points most dogs have to out on a Moving Decoy (escapes and face).

Watch any FR or MR high leve footage and you will see dogs doing that.

Also in PSA trials in the level 2 and 3 the dog must be able to out off a Moving, fighting and/or excaping decoy.



all in all not that big a deal!


----------



## Stelios Sdrolias

Having the dog "out" while the decoy is moving is not only worthless as an exercise it also shows how little you know about real street work.

Let's assume that the decoy has dropped a knife/gun a few steps away from the "fight scene"..by doing the exercise you describe ,you just give time and space for the bad guy to grab it and go Zorro on you and the dog..

If you find yourself in a situation that the dog has to fight ,your main concern should be to have the threat unable to move, and your dog and yourself as far away as possible after that


----------



## fred karlsson

Well tactically speaking it might not be worthless, I there are multiple attacker you might want the dog to come to your rescue even though bandit one is on the move.


----------



## Chris McDonald

Chris, 

What part of my post to Butch did you find issue with?[/quote]


No particular problem with your post to Butch, the comment was made regarding all your posts in general as a whole


----------



## Lee Robinson

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Do you have a single dog that can do that ??


We have dogs that will out on command, but I don't know if any of them would RELIABLY out on a decoy that is ACTIVELY struggling. I do know we have some that would not do it (as some of our dogs require a "choking out" even on a frozen decoy as they really want to battle a decoy...but I can't say that none of them would (although I do admittedly have my doubts that they would)...as even our dogs that will verbally out, I have always had my decoys "freeze" when we outed them. But, I think if one wants to measure true OB in work, it would be a good test...and it may be something worth testing in a competition that tests both control and reliability.


----------



## Gerry Grimwood

I for one would really like to see that in a video, I haven't seen many examples of these types of dogs doing protection work.


----------



## Lee Robinson

Kyle Sprag said:


> What trial was that?


Kyle, 

I was saying I have never seen a trial that fit that description. I am not saying they don't exist. I would certainly appreciate some footage of that if you have any or know of any. It would be interesting to view...and display an impressive level of contrrol if it is what I am describing.


----------



## Lee Robinson

Stelios Sdrolias said:


> Having the dog "out" while the decoy is moving is not only worthless as an exercise it also shows how little you know about real street work.
> 
> Let's assume that the decoy has dropped a knife/gun a few steps away from the "fight scene"..by doing the exercise you describe ,you just give time and space for the bad guy to grab it and go Zorro on you and the dog..
> 
> If you find yourself in a situation that the dog has to fight ,your main concern should be to have the threat unable to move, and your dog and yourself as far away as possible after that


Stelios,

If you actually read my post, you wouldn't make that ridiculous comment about "real street work" (by all means feel free to ask Butch...privately or publically...if you want to know how real my dogs are for street appication). What I said was if a dog could be VERBALLY outed by his handler you would see I mentioned it would be a testiment of control...and one that a person COULD use to prevent "excessive use of force"...however, Stelios...please note, I did NOT SAY that the dog should automatically out. If a dog would automatically out on a struggling decoy, then the dog is quitting...not outing. This would only be impressive to me if it was COMMANDED. Now, if there was a weapon available, only an idiot would out the dog. And, if the dog outed on a struggling decoy WITHOUT being commanded to do so, then IMO that would be a dog that was about to turn and run...and we both know neither of us would be interested in that. However, as Fred stated, it could be a benefit in the real world as well to have a dog that COULD VERBALLY out if one found them self in a situation dealing with multiple attackers.


----------



## Lee Robinson

Chris McDonald said:


> No particular problem with your post to Butch, the comment was made regarding all your posts in general as a whole


I have been informed that you are VERY knew to the concepts of training PP dogs, and have never trained a dog. Now, I don't know if this is true or not, but if so I wouldn't expect you to understand my views. However, true or not... Your posts suggest that you seem to be a follower rather than a thinker. Open you mind, accept the possibility, and then use logic, knowledge, and experience to dictate and reveal the truth. Do that, and you will then perhaps you can offer something worth saying instead of making pointless conversation hoping to win a few brownie points from some those that don't like my views. Regardless of if you agree with me or not...if you are going to post, why not post something worth reading?


----------



## Gerry Grimwood

You are one fast editor Lee :lol:


----------



## Mike Scheiber

Lee Robinson said:


> Stelios,
> 
> If you actually read my post, you wouldn't make that ridiculous comment about "real street work" (by all means feel free to ask Butch...privately or publically...if you want to know how real my dogs are for street appication). What I said was if a dog could be VERBALLY outed by his handler you would see I mentioned it would be a testiment of control...and one that a person COULD use to prevent "excessive use of force"...however, Stelios...please note, I did NOT SAY that the dog should automatically out. If a dog would automatically out on a struggling decoy, then the dog is quitting...not outing. This would only be impressive to me if it was COMMANDED. Now, if there was a weapon available, only an idiot would out the dog. And, if the dog outed on a struggling decoy WITHOUT being commanded to do so, then IMO that would be a dog that was about to turn and run...and we both know neither of us would be interested in that. However, as Fred stated, it could be a benefit in the real world as well to have a dog that COULD VERBALLY out if one found them self in a situation dealing with multiple attackers.


This sound like a script in the making for a Jackie Chan movie.


----------



## Kyle Sprag

Mike Scheiber said:


> This sound like a script in the making for a Jackie Chan movie.


 
me thinks you mean JACKOFF Chan! LOL:lol:


----------



## Lee Robinson

Gerry,

Some times not fast enough. In the post just above yours, I said "knew" when I meant "new." My 3 year old son, who is my pride and joy, some times distracts me while I write...and then when I come back later undistracted I realize made an oversight that needs correcting. One price of fatherhood, but a price that the benefits far outweigh.

Kyle, 

I am not being a smart ass...but I would like to see that type of video if you have or know of one.


----------



## Matt Hammond

Without control you have nothing. Weather it is on or off leash. PPD are to me nothing more then a green dog. Trained right they are your best line of defence, not trained they are nothing more then a kid killer and law suit waiting to happen. Most PPD trainers lack control because they can't train control, or have someone telling them they should not. Sport dogs weather you like them or not will defend you, are under control, will out on command, will call off a bite, and are realible. PPD dogs are none of the above and hyped up for higher re-sell.


----------



## Kyle Sprag

Lee Robinson said:


> Gerry,
> 
> Some times not fast enough. In the post just above yours, I said "knew" when I meant "new." My 3 year old son, who is my pride and joy, some times distracts me while I write...and then when I come back later undistracted I realize made an oversight that needs correcting. One price of fatherhood, but a price that the benefits far outweigh.
> 
> Kyle,
> 
> I am not being a smart ass...but I would like to see that type of video if you have or know of one.


 
What video do you mean and of what?


----------



## Lee Robinson

Kyle Sprag said:


> In Mondio Ring and French Ring the decoy stops fighting the dog once the Out command is given, if you don't want to get killed on points most dogs have to out on a Moving Decoy (escapes and face).
> 
> Watch any FR or MR high leve footage and you will see dogs doing that.
> 
> Also in PSA trials in the level 2 and 3 the dog must be able to out off a Moving, fighting and/or excaping decoy.
> 
> all in all not that big a deal!


The dog outing at a verbal command while a decoy is still fighting and/or escaping.


----------



## Lee Robinson

Matt Hammond said:


> Without control you have nothing. Weather it is on or off leash. PPD are to me nothing more then a green dog. Trained right they are your best line of defence, not trained they are nothing more then a kid killer and law suit waiting to happen. Most PPD trainers lack control because they can't train control, or have someone telling them they should not. Sport dogs weather you like them or not will defend you, are under control, will out on command, will call off a bite, and are realible. PPD dogs are none of the above and hyped up for higher re-sell.


I am not going to disagree with you Matt...but, IMO, the key word to your statement above is... "MOST."

I say this because again, I think a lot of stability comes from solid nerves, high pack instinct, a lack of rank drive, and high pain tollerances. This helps a dog, even a PP dog, be safe around children and those they know and trust. A companion guardian type of PP dog isn't the same as what most PP trainers are used to. They are about games or score cards, but stability...and must first "do no harm." After all, what good is a PP dog if you can't trust that it is safe to have it with you and those you love. Here is my boy, who again is my pride and joy, spending a little fun time with his "buddy."










Here is Conner's buddy (Chimera's Preacher-Man) also be tested by Roger Abshire of USK9 and observed by the Madison K9 Police head trainer, Chris P.



















And also by Johnny Courville...










And Wade Ford,


----------



## Lee Robinson

CORRECTION...that should say "They are *NOT* about games or score cards, but stability...and must first "do no harm." 

Also, it could also be said while a number of sport dogs can CERTAINLY be PP dogs, there are ALSO some that do not have what it takes. Generalizations may generally be true, but there are exceptions as well...exceptions to "both sides of the coin."


----------



## Jim Nash

Lee , I just can't get enough of those impressive pictures and videos of on-lead bites that you have posted on this site over and over and over again .

Please , please post more .


----------



## Stelios Sdrolias

Lee,
I do not have to ask anyone about your dogs..I already know about them.
You have absolutely no clue when it comes to real life protection ,because you have never had a single hour of patrol under your belt.You are not qualified to do so.

Now,if i am not mistaken it is not me that is getting ridiculed on this board..we can always have a nice little poll.


----------



## Chris McDonald

...if you are going to post, why not post something worth reading?[/quote]

There is a few of us on this board that post stuff not worth reading


----------



## Chris McDonald

This tread was going well for a while


----------



## Lee Robinson

Stelios Sdrolias said:


> Lee,
> I do not have to ask anyone about your dogs..I already know about them.
> You have absolutely no clue when it comes to real life protection ,because you have never had a single hour of patrol under your belt.You are not qualified to do so.
> 
> Now,if i am not mistaken it is not me that is getting ridiculed on this board..we can always have a nice little poll.


Stelios, I do have dogs that are used in patrol and sentry work. Some have proven successful where many others have failed.

Boards are clickish, and the nonsense comes from one such click composed of a small, but repetitive, few.


----------



## Gillian Schuler

Jim Nash said:

"Luckily my dog wasn't hurt and it taught this new young dog to really commit and hold on from then on . He was a much more serious dog from then on . The guys on the street would show up at the emergency room to see what the badguys looked like after that . He's been gone for 7 years now and people still talk about him ."

Isn't this the keyword, on or off leash?

How many PPD handlers get to know what their dog is worth and how many PPD dogs get to experience this to make them into such dogs?


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen

Where ?? Specifically ?? I am not making fun of you, I am just curious as to if any of the hundreds of mutts you have flooded the planet with are worth feeding.......OK, sorry, I did end up making fun of you.

Loved your PM to Chris. I remember how little you know/knew and you wouldn't shut up either, so really, it is funny that you would give that advice.

The video was an 8 month old female that you were using to much defense on.


----------



## Stelios Sdrolias

Chris McDonald said:


> This tread was going well for a while



Untill Lee started advertising again..and giving opinions on matters he doesn't know anything about .


Lee,if your dogs do sentry and/or patrol work,then it is good for them..but you still do not have a single hour of patrol work under your belt.
So spare us the advice on "scenarios" you have only seen in drawings or talked about.


----------



## Kyle Sprag

Lee wrote: "The dog outing at a verbal command while a decoy is still fighting and/or escaping."

If you would read the rules and go outside your backyard to train and/or trial in the upper levels of Ring or PSA you would see that this is a must.

Like I wrote: Not a big deal


I think what gets you in trouble is your insistance of commenting on things with a strong opinion you have NO EXPERIENCE in or with. Which is almost EVERYTHING about dogs with the exception of Breeding, feeding and poor bites on a lead or post w/logging chain, in defense.

In the last couple of months you have:

Tried to tell Sport people how it is done, you have done NOTHING in the area of Sport

Tried to tell PSD people how it is done, you have done NOTHING in the area of PSD work

Tried to tell Security people how it is done, you have done NOTHING in the area of Security

Tried to tell MWD people how it is done, you have done NOTHING in the area of MWD work

Tried to tell scemt work people how it is done, you have done NOTHING in the area of Sent work



Again, I ask, what HAVE you done? What Trials HAVE you seen to offer such an opinion on the subject?


----------



## Thomas Barriano

"Boards are clickish, and the nonsense comes from one such click composed of a small, but repetitive, few."

Or on some boards, most of the nonsense comes from ONE individual.


----------



## Chris McDonald

Kyle Sprag said:


> Lee wrote: "The dog outing at a verbal command while a decoy is still fighting and/or escaping."
> 
> If you would read the rules and go outside your backyard to train and/or trial in the upper levels of Ring or PSA you would see that this is a must.
> 
> Like I wrote: Not a big deal
> 
> 
> I think what gets you in trouble is your insistance of commenting on things with a strong opinion you have NO EXPERIENCE in or with. Which is almost EVERYTHING about dogs with the exception of Breeding, feeding and poor bites on a lead or post w/logging chain, in defense.
> 
> In the last couple of months you have:
> 
> Tried to tell Sport people how it is done, you have done NOTHING in the area of Sport
> 
> Tried to tell PSD people how it is done, you have done NOTHING in the area of PSD work
> 
> Tried to tell Security people how it is done, you have done NOTHING in the area of Security
> 
> Tried to tell MWD people how it is done, you have done NOTHING in the area of MWD work
> 
> Tried to tell scemt work people how it is done, you have done NOTHING in the area of Sent work
> 
> 
> 
> Again, I ask, what HAVE you done? What Trials HAVE you seen to offer such an opinion on the subject?


You know when you put it like this I almost got to give the guy credit; ignorance is bliss or something like that


----------



## Lee Robinson

KS, ask you to post a video showing a decoy FIGHTING to pressure OR FIGHTING to get away while the dog is commanded to out...and instead of providing one, you just give lip service.

Stellios, you say it would be pointless for a street dog to out on command, but yet you give no reason as to why. Instead you just give lip service.

Chris, you have done nothing but lip service.

Thomas used to be someone I would see giving lip service, but then I found a video of his "protection" work and since it is obvious he has no clue he has now been placed on my ignore list. Here is that video of Thomas's dog in case you missed it. http://www.chimerakennels.com/ThomasBungeesleevefixated.wmv

MEANWHILE, I have posted information that is actually on topic, besides this post. The few people that make negative remarks...Chris, KS, Thomas, and Stellois...have never met me or my dogs...and have not addressed any of my comments with a countering idea. Now...actions speak louder than words. If you want to attack my ideas...fine, but then do that. Post a reason as to why my idea is wrong...and whhen you do that be prepaired to prove your point with logic, reason, and experience...something Thomas was never able to do.


----------



## maggie fraser

Lee, have you ever considered telling someone who actually gives a toss? Oh, and can I get a dingaling pm too... never had one before, would really love it if you were my first....8-[ :grin:

btw, I know nuthin about dogs or training, I only come here for the info by normal dog folks oh... and for the crack too!! :grin:


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## Gerry Grimwood

Lee Robinson said:


> Now...actions speak louder than words.


Or text,that's why I'd like you to post a video of what you consider proper PPD behaviour while doing protection.


----------



## Lee Robinson

KS, I asked you to post a video showing a decoy FIGHTING to pressure OR FIGHTING to get away while the dog is commanded to out...and instead of providing one, you just give lip service. For about 5 or 6 years now we have been waiting for you to post your video of your dog taking stick hits and decoy pressure on a slick wet and unstable surface showing that your dog would engage a threat, and then go back to the man when the equipment was slipped...and still even though you agreed to do that if I would do it...you have not done it yet, despite the fact that I did it the first weekend after your request was made, as that was the soonest I could get together with a decoy. Here is that video. http://www.chimerakennels.com/protectioninboat.wmv So, since you didn't honor that video, I didn't ask you to post a video of YOUR dog this time...as you have proven to be unreliable. So, instead, I asked if you could point to someone elses...yet still, you instead just give lip service. There is no need for that nonsense. Just put up a video that shows what you were talking about. I would appreciate seeing it. 

Stellios, you say it would be pointless for a street dog to out on command, but yet you give no reason as to why. Instead you just give lip service. Perhaps you are still upset because the few people that have seen both your dogs and my dogs have decided to work with me instead of you. Well, that's your problem, and something you should get over. I understand your idle Lucero has also ditched you despite your butt kissing. Not to mention, you don't even know how your dogs are bred. Here is more on Stellios's song and dance that exposes some of his lies by showing himself contradicting himself on how his dogs are bred...essentially admitting he himself doesn't even know... http://molosserdogs.com/e107_plugins/forum/forum_viewtopic.php?47815.0 

You also say "Lee's advertising" when let's not fail to notice...I posted a comment about Butch's statement...nothing more, and nothing less. That is until someone essentially mentioned that most "PP dogs" aren't safe around kids as right or wrong, which is something that should be clarified with PROOF, instead of lip service that there are some PP dogs out there that are good with kids. That is why we have videos and photos of such.

Chris, you have done nothing but lip service...and you don't know what to even agree or disagree with...which is why you stick to posting about people instead of conversation on the topic. You find it safer to make nonsense personal attacks instead of posting something about training...because you don't know anything about training...and you don't want to be exposed. So, instead you post about people hoping no one will know your an idiot.

Thomas used to be someone I would see giving lip service, but then I found a video of his "protection" work and since it is obvious he has no clue he has now been placed on my ignore list. Here is that video of Thomas's dog in case you missed it. http://www.chimerakennels.com/ThomasBungeesleevefixated.wmv

MEANWHILE, I have posted information that is actually on topic, besides this post. The few people that make negative remarks...Chris, KS, Thomas, and Stellois...have never met me or my dogs...and have not addressed any of my comments with a countering idea. Now...actions speak louder than words. *If you want to attack my ideas...fine, but then do that. Post a reason as to why my idea is wrong...and when you do that be prepaired to prove your point with logic, reason, and experience...or better yet, proof*...something Thomas was never able to do. Anything else is lip service.


----------



## Kyle Sprag

No Lee, 

Your so called "information" is an Opinion, based on nothing more than ASSumption and NO first hand experience.


Like I wrote, get out of your yard and go to some real training or watch some trials and you will see what you ask for.


----------



## Gerry Grimwood

Lee Robinson said:


> http://www.chimerakennels.com/protectioninboat.wmv


The guy in that video walks up and shoves the _ sleeve _ in the dogs mouth. What does that prove ?


----------



## Lee Robinson

Gerry Grimwood said:


> Or text,that's why I'd like you to post a video of what you consider proper PPD behaviour while doing protection.


Gerry, 

That video wasn't a response to your request. It was just a reminder to KS about his "challenge" to see a dog willing to engage on a slick wet unstable surface and being willing to reingage after the equipment is slipped...which can all be seen in the video, as well as stability after the work. KS agreed to do a similiar video 5 or 6 years ago, and to date he still has not done so. No biggie.

That said, there are many videos on our website. Some are better than others. However, instead of me telling you what I like...let me ask you, if you have something in mind...by all means make a request. I don't mind recieving reasonable video requests. It wouldn't be the first. I say "reasonable" because someone like KS or Thomas might say something stupid like...lets see one jump out of a helicopter into a flaming building and save a child from flames, catch a bullet with his teeth, and also catching and handcuff a criminal. You never know what an unreasonable person will request. Reasonable requests though...hey, by all means...tell me what you would like to see.


----------



## Kyle Sprag

Lee Robinson said:


> KS, I asked you to post a video showing a decoy FIGHTING to pressure OR FIGHTING to get away while the dog is commanded to out...and instead of providing one, you just give lip service. For about 5 or 6 years now we have been waiting for you to post your video of your dog taking stick hits and decoy pressure on a slick wet and unstable surface showing that your dog would engage a threat, and then go back to the man when the equipment was slipped...and still even though you agreed to do that if I would do it...you have not done it yet, despite the fact that I did it the first weekend after your request was made, as that was the soonest I could get together with a decoy. Here is that video. http://www.chimerakennels.com/protectioninboat.wmv So, since you didn't honor that video, I didn't ask you to post a video of YOUR dog this time...as you have proven to be unreliable. So, instead, I asked if you could point to someone elses...yet still, you instead just give lip service. There is no need for that nonsense. Just put up a video that shows what you were talking about. I would appreciate seeing it.
> 
> Stellios, you say it would be pointless for a street dog to out on command, but yet you give no reason as to why. Instead you just give lip service. Perhaps you are still upset because the few people that have seen both your dogs and my dogs have decided to work with me instead of you. Well, that's your problem, and something you should get over. I understand your idle Lucero has also ditched you despite your butt kissing. Not to mention, you don't even know how your dogs are bred. Here is more on Stellios's song and dance that exposes some of his lies by showing himself contradicting himself on how his dogs are bred...essentially admitting he himself doesn't even know... http://molosserdogs.com/e107_plugins/forum/forum_viewtopic.php?47815.0
> 
> You also say "Lee's advertising" when let's not fail to notice...I posted a comment about Butch's statement...nothing more, and nothing less. That is until someone essentially mentioned that most "PP dogs" aren't safe around kids as right or wrong, which is something that should be clarified with PROOF, instead of lip service that there are some PP dogs out there that are good with kids. That is why we have videos and photos of such.
> 
> Chris, you have done nothing but lip service...and you don't know what to even agree or disagree with...which is why you stick to posting about people instead of conversation on the topic. You find it safer to make nonsense personal attacks instead of posting something about training...because you don't know anything about training...and you don't want to be exposed. So, instead you post about people hoping no one will know your an idiot.
> 
> Thomas used to be someone I would see giving lip service, but then I found a video of his "protection" work and since it is obvious he has no clue he has now been placed on my ignore list. Here is that video of Thomas's dog in case you missed it. http://www.chimerakennels.com/ThomasBungeesleevefixated.wmv
> 
> MEANWHILE, I have posted information that is actually on topic, besides this post. The few people that make negative remarks...Chris, KS, Thomas, and Stellois...have never met me or my dogs...and have not addressed any of my comments with a countering idea. Now...actions speak louder than words. *If you want to attack my ideas...fine, but then do that. Post a reason as to why my idea is wrong...and when you do that be prepaired to prove your point with logic, reason, and experience*...something Thomas was never able to do. Anything else is lip service.


 
Good GOD! You are one Sick Puppy,

The lies, stories and BS, MORPH with every passing day.

You really need to get a new act!


BTW you forgot to accuse Stelios of trying to Hack your Paypal account from Holland.......LOL :lol::lol::lol:


Your Ideas? Well your ASSumptions about certian requirements of training and trialing in certain sports are simply WRONG! in FR on the search and escort there are 5 bites and outs in Level 3 on that ONE exercise, if your dog is not outing on command when the decoy is still moving it is too late and is costing you Major Points.

I don't need to show some Back Yard Wantabe what I am talking about, get out and see for yourself.


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: 
Thomas used to be someone I would see giving lip service, but then I found a video of his "protection" work and since it is obvious he has no clue he has now been placed on my ignore list. Here is that video of Thomas's dog in case you missed it. http://www.chimerakennels.com/Thomas...evefixated.wmv

Thats Thomas's dog ?? Are you sure ??


----------



## Gerry Grimwood

I already asked you to show a live bite but you declined.

How about a 50 yrd sendout on a guy wearing a suit running towards the dog screaming as loud as he can ?


----------



## Thomas Barriano

*Avoidance list*



Lee Robinson said:


> Thomas used to be someone I would see giving lip service, but then I found a video of his "protection" work and since it is obvious he has no clue he has now been placed on my ignore list. Here is that video of Thomas's dog in case you missed it. http://www.chimerakennels.com/ThomasBungeesleevefixated.wmv
> 
> Isn't it amusing that a wannabee who gives unwanted and unsolicited advise on the list and through PM's. Who has yet to post a video of bite obedience or a decent out . Has yet to title a dog in ANYTHING. Has yet to breed a dog that has ever titled in anything, is criticizing people who have.
> 
> Isn't it amusing that ever since he placed me in his
> avoidance (opps I mean ignore LOL) list he persists in posting
> videos of my dogs. I think obsessed may be an appropriate
> term. It is even more amusing when he edits and distorts
> MY video to attempt to prove some kind of point. The video of the Dutch Shepherd is a TRAINING video of a SPORT dog.
> I never said Belatucadrus wasn't sleeve focused. This was the
> first time he had been on a bungee cord and we were working on strike and grip NOT outing or man focus.
> 
> FYI: Lee didn't "find" my video. I posted it on You tube and he STOLE it and plays it on Real time. I also posted a pointer
> on another list and LEE crossposted without permission.
> 
> paraphrasing: Those who can, DO. Those that can't ,become
> teachers and pollute working dog Forums with self serving nonsense


----------



## Kyle Sprag

Lee Robinson said:


> Gerry,
> 
> That video wasn't a response to your request. It was just a reminder to KS about his "challenge" to see a dog willing to engage on a slick wet unstable surface and being willing to reingage after the equipment is slipped...which can all be seen in the video, as well as stability after the work.
> 
> That said, there are many videos on our website. Some are better than others. However, instead of me telling you what I like...let me ask you, if you have something in mind...by all means make a request. I don't mind recieving reasonable video requests. It wouldn't be the first. I say "reasonable" because someone like KS or Thomas might say something stupid like...lets see one jump out of a helicopter into a flaming building and save a child from flames, catch a bullet with his teeth, and also catching and handcuff a criminal. You never know what an unreasonable person will request. Reasonable requests though...hey, by all means...tell me what you would like to see.


 
LOL, OK,

I don't want any more pain from laughing at any more of your pitifull edited video,

All I want you to do with your VAST superior training knowledge is Title one of you dogs to Level 1 in FR, MR or PSA.

Should be simple enough for someone like you with all thows Mad Skilz and Genetic Material to work with. :-\":-\"


----------



## Thomas Barriano

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote:
> Thomas used to be someone I would see giving lip service, but then I found a video of his "protection" work and since it is obvious he has no clue he has now been placed on my ignore list. Here is that video of Thomas's dog in case you missed it. http://www.chimerakennels.com/Thomas...evefixated.wmv
> 
> Thats Thomas's dog ?? Are you sure ??


Jeff.

That' s my Dutch Shepherd Belatucadrus. I know you've only seen me with Dobermanns :=)


----------



## Lee Robinson

KS, More lip service. I said it would be good to see in a competition. Meanwhile, instead of responding with an agreement or a disagreement on that...you post what...nonsense and nonsense. BTW, what is it that you do or a living again?


----------



## Kyle Sprag

Lee Robinson said:


> KS, More lip service. I said it would be good to see in a competition. Meanwhile, instead of responding with an agreement or a disagreement on that...you post what...nonsense and nonsense. BTW, what is it that you do or a living again?


 
Lee, I am telling you it IS done all the time in training and trials in those sports.

What else do you want me to say?

Yes, it IS good to see


You first posted that it was NOT done.


----------



## Thomas Barriano

*Requests*



Lee Robinson said:


> Gerry,
> 
> I don't mind recieving reasonable video requests. It wouldn't be the first. I say "reasonable" because someone like KS or Thomas might say something stupid like...lets see one jump out of a helicopter into a flaming building
> 
> >I'm not at all in seeing any dog do this, but...........
> >I wouldn't mind seeing YOU give it a try LOL
> 
> Reasonable requests though...hey, by all means...tell me what you would like to see.


What makes you think anyone wants to see you OR your
dogs doing anything? If you want to advertise than try
paying for it.


----------



## Lee Robinson

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote:
> Thomas used to be someone I would see giving lip service, but then I found a video of his "protection" work and since it is obvious he has no clue he has now been placed on my ignore list. Here is that video of Thomas's dog in case you missed it. http://www.chimerakennels.com/Thomas...evefixated.wmv
> 
> Thats Thomas's dog ?? Are you sure ??


Yes, I am sure. That is ONE of his dogs. What type of decoy tries to get the dog to focus on the man after he slips the sleeve while the dog is tied on a bungee and not able to get in close enough to get the dog's respect? And, what kind of handler sits there and watches this happen without getting up to put a solid line on the dog?

But, perhaps you are used to seeing his Dobies. Here is his some more of his "protection" work with one of his dobies. He gave me permission to use this video when he denied that the dog displayed avoidance...when the decoy stepped on his dog's toe. He also denied his dog fearing the stick. As you can see in the videos, Thomas is working with some "great" decoys there. ROTFLO. =D>

http://www.chimerakennels.com/Thomasdobie.wmv


----------



## Lee Robinson

Kyle Sprag said:


> Lee, I am telling you it IS done all the time in training and trials in those sports.
> 
> What else do you want me to say?
> 
> Yes, it IS good to see
> 
> You first posted that it was NOT done.


You need to go back and read my post. Oh, you didn't answer my other question. What is it you do for a living again? :-\"


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen

Your Dutchie was about 3-4 months old when I saw him last. Maybe one time when he was older, not sure.


----------



## fred karlsson

I go back once in a while and look at the answers in my tread.............

I am amazed about how much you insult each other. why?

3 pages of shit....... I guess it's like the old saying " a dog is not better than its owner"

Question: how should I use a PPD
Answer: Run and get your M16 and kill anybody in 1 mile reach

Question: What happends if my dog bite someone?
answer: I will lose my house , job and family

The truth is probably that some that someone that can train a good PPD is not the same person that needs one.............but thats already slagged off in my previous thread "should I buy a PPD?"

can´t say more than 80% of all the advice were 100% wrong.

Still worth posting questions because deep in all shit lays some really good advice.


----------



## Thomas Barriano

*Pathetic Loser*



Lee Robinson said:


> Yes, I am sure. That is ONE of his dogs. What type of decoy tries to get the dog to focus on the man after he slips the sleeve while the dog is tied on a bungee and not able to get in close enough to get the dog's respect? And, what kind of handler sits there and watches this happen without getting up to put a solid line on the dog?
> 
> But, perhaps you are used to seeing his Dobies. Here is his some more of his "protection" work with one of his dobies. He gave me permission to use this video when he denied that the dog displayed avoidance...when the decoy stepped on his dog's toe. He also denied his dog fearing the stick. As you can see in the videos, Thomas is working with some "great" decoys there. ROTFLO. =D>
> 
> http://www.chimerakennels.com/Thomasdobie.wmv



Do YOU seriously think that an edited, distorted 10 second video clip excerpted from 600+ minutes of video proves anything? LMAO

Does ANYONE think that a backyard decoy who isn't certified
by anybody should be criticizing National level decoys?


----------



## Kyle Sprag

Lee Robinson said:


> You need to go back and read my post. Oh, you didn't answer my other question. What is it you do for a living again? :-\"


 
I manage things.


----------



## Chris McDonald

fred karlsson said:


> I go back once in a while and look at the answers in my tread.............
> 
> I am amazed about how much you insult each other. why?
> 
> 3 pages of shit....... I guess it's like the old saying " a dog is not better than its owner"
> 
> Question: how should I use a PPD
> Answer: Run and get your M16 and kill anybody in 1 mile reach
> 
> Question: What happends if my dog bite someone?
> answer: I will lose my house , job and family
> 
> The truth is probably that some that someone that can train a good PPD is not the same person that needs one.............but thats already slagged off in my previous thread "should I buy a PPD?"
> 
> can´t say more than 80% of all the advice were 100% wrong.
> 
> Still worth posting questions because deep in all shit lays some really good advice.


It would be way to easy to just get good advice without some shit mixed in.


----------



## Chris McDonald

He lee can you post the boat video again I just can’t get enough of it?


----------



## Gerry Grimwood

Chris McDonald said:


> He lee can you post the boat video again I just can’t get enough of it?


I need more cowbell.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Mie9hhQTUM


----------



## Connie Sutherland

Gerry Grimwood said:


> I need more cowbell.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Mie9hhQTUM



HAHAHAHAHAHA!

I love the cowbell routine.

'Course, I love Christopher Walken, anyway.


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen

Fred, you are in Spain. WHat are the laws regarding the use of a PPD there ???


----------



## Chris McDonald

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Fred, you are in Spain. WHat are the laws regarding the use of a PPD there ???


This is an interesting question, although I don’t even know the laws here. 
I guess I don’t need to; I never plan on having my dog bite someone for a personal protection reason. My dogs a pet that I goof around with, I went 38 years without ever needing a dog to bite someone, I am pretty sure I can go 38 more.
But it’s still an interesting question


----------



## Chris McDonald

Gerry Grimwood said:


> I need more cowbell.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Mie9hhQTUM


 
I never understood how these guys could do something like that without laughing. How do you keep a serious face on and do that?


----------



## Thomas Barriano

*Does anyone "really" need a dog to bite someone?*



Chris McDonald said:


> This is an interesting question, although I don’t even know the laws here.
> I guess I don’t need to; I never plan on having my dog bite someone for a personal protection reason. My dogs a pet that I goof around with, I went 38 years without ever needing a dog to bite someone, I am pretty sure I can go 38 more.
> But it’s still an interesting question



Hey Chris,

I've gone 62 years and lived in dozens of States and a couple of Foreign countries and never had an occasion to need a dog to bite anyone either.


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: Does ANYONE think that a backyard decoy who isn't certified
by anybody should be criticizing National level decoys?

Yes, except for Lee. Sometimes you guys all act like these guys are spectacular. Lets face it, Winkler went out there one year, and scared the pants off a lot of dogs, then the familiar faces came back.

Other than Lee, I think that Joe average SHOULD question these people. Not all of them are all that.


----------



## Mike Scheiber

*Re: Does anyone "really" need a dog to bite someone?*



Thomas Barriano said:


> Hey Chris,
> 
> I've gone 62 years and lived in dozens of States and a couple of Foreign countries and never had an occasion to need a dog to bite anyone either.


 My old Schutzhund III Rottweiler nailed a guy and it was deemed justifiable but he was still put on probation. It was a huge hassle going through all the bullshit of a dog biting someone in Minneapolis and god forbid the authorities would find out he was bite trained in Schutzhund my neighbors then and now still don't know what I do with my dog.
The guy was stranger, drunk, and acting stupid and he got what he deserved.
However there was no personal danger to my self or my wife. I didn't put the dog on him nor did I try to stop the dog it was sort of like nature weeding out the stupid.
So no there hasn't EVER been a time that I needed to sig my dog on someone.
I sawed off a shotgun once for home security but I couldnt tell you where it is rite now might still be laying in the garage:lol: Think I'm going to see if I can find it.


----------



## Thomas Barriano

*Re: Does anyone "really" need a dog to bite someone?*



Mike Scheiber said:


> I sawed off a shotgun once for home security but I couldnt tell you where it is rite now might still be laying in the garage:lol: Think I'm going to see if I can find it.


Mike,

If I were you I'd find it ASAP and destroy it. Sawed off
Shotguns are in the same category as illegally converted
full auto machine guns :-(


----------



## David Ruby

Chris McDonald said:


> I never understood how these guys could do something like that without laughing. How do you keep a serious face on and do that?


They can't, at least not always. Check out Jimmy Fallon. He's pretty much biting his lip the whole time to keep from cracking up.

That clip is pretty priceless.

-Cheers


----------



## David Ruby

*Re: Does anyone "really" need a dog to bite someone?*



Thomas Barriano said:


> Mike,
> 
> If I were you I'd find it ASAP and destroy it. Sawed off
> Shotguns are in the same category as illegally converted
> full auto machine guns :-(


Yeah, believe it or not, a regular shotgun will probably @#$% somebody up pretty well on its own. Thomas has a point though. It's one of those things where if somebody stole it or if you ever had to use it, there would undoubtedly be legal ramifications. And yeah, if you tag somebody with an unmodified shotgun once or twice, they're probably going down pretty quick anyway.

-Cheers


----------



## Mike Scheiber

*Re: Does anyone "really" need a dog to bite someone?*



Thomas Barriano said:


> Mike,
> 
> If I were you I'd find it ASAP and destroy it. Sawed off
> Shotguns are in the same category as illegally converted
> full auto machine guns :-(


I found it, its junk now rusted solid must have goten wet. It was a old shitty cheep Stevens pump that was rusty to begin with and it was legal 18" barrel if I remember rite.
I sprayed down with WD-40 I'll have to give it a try tomorrow or it maybe off to the bottom of the Mississippi.


----------



## Chris McDonald

*Re: Does anyone "really" need a dog to bite someone?*



Thomas Barriano said:


> Hey Chris,
> 
> I've gone 62 years and lived in dozens of States and a couple of Foreign countries and never had an occasion to need a dog to bite anyone either.


It’s still fun to play though. There are a lot of areas of this world where real dogs are really real and really used to protect stuff and places in really bad places, and really bite the shit out of people. I sometimes wondered why there are not more of these really real dog owners on this site. I came to two conclusions, one that if you really need real dogs to truly protect you and your stuff your probably not one to be bitch chatting on some silly chat room. Or two they live in an area of the world that doesn’t have electric never mind internet. I think this is the reason there are so few videos of real dogs really biting trespassers for real. No electric to run all the cameras hung up


----------



## Lee Robinson

*Re: Does anyone "really" need a dog to bite someone?*

*How about getting back on topic...which was PP dogs on/off leash...and a dog outing on a struggling decoy.*

Stellios states,


> "_Having the dog "out" while the decoy is moving is not only worthless as an exercise it also shows how little you know about real street work. Let's assume that the decoy has dropped a knife/gun a few steps away from the "fight scene"..by doing the exercise you describe ,you just give time and space for the bad guy to grab it and go Zorro on you and the dog.." _


This statement addresses YOUR lack of knowledge of PP work on the street. If there is no weapon, *I see nothing wrong with a handler being about to out his dog on an attacker struggling to FLEE*. Be it because it is time to "go" or be it because the attacker is struggling to FLEE and you are dealing with another attacker that you could use assistence with.

KS states,


> "_Also in PSA trials in the level 2 and 3 the dog must be able to out off a Moving, fighting and/or excaping decoy."_


Well, KS...that proves that either YOU or PSA...one or the other does not know PP work. *I would not out a PP dog when dealing with a "FIGHTING" decoy*. Do you even realize what you wrote?* This is supposed to be a PP topic. If there is a threat, a PP dog should stay in the battle*. Even if there are multiple attackers I wouldn't out a PP dog unless the threat was over. Perhaps it would be cool to see a dog out on a STRUGGLING DECOY that was trying to FLEE...but a steet worthy PP dog should not out on a FIGHTING/threatening decoy. If you disagree...well, you miss the point of a PP dog.

Now, this addresses YOUR lack of knowledge of PP work in street applications.


----------



## Kyle Sprag

I don't know where you came up with this but if you compete in something you train the dog for what is needed for the specific venue. In competition there are Rules set to evaluate the training and the character of the dog. The specific "street" application IMO would need to evaluated on a case by case basis. Not all Black and White.

If you say the dog should be outed off a decoy fighting and/or fleeing the answer is maybe, I am sure someone can come up with a scenario where this may be needed.

If you say the dog shoudl NOT be outed off a decoy fighting and/or fleeing the answer is maybe, I am sure someone can come up with a scenario where this may be prudent.

To add, teaching/training/maintaining these behaviors all have their pros and cons.


----------



## Lee Robinson

Well...this is a PP thread, not a competition thread. I can see how outing a dog on an aggitator struggling to FLEE could be beneficial, but I don't see any realistic street situation where outing a dog on a FIGHTING attacker that was close enough to be a threat would be a wise decision..as it is unlikely in the REAL WORLD that a PP dog would be used 100 yards down range. On that note, in the future...let's stay on topic and perhaps things will be more clear...as apparently you are now conceding to say you actually didn't have any significant disagreement with me when it comes to PP work on the street...although given the nonsense posted within this thread that would be difficult to conclude.


----------



## Chris McDonald

Lee Robinson said:


> Well...this is a PP thread, not a competition thread. So, in the future...let's stay on topic and perhaps things will be more clear...as apparently you are now conceding to say you actually didn't have any significant disagreement with me when it comes to PP work on the street...although given the nonsense posted within this thread that would be difficult to conclude.


 
What a Dick


----------



## Gerry Grimwood

What about that video ??


----------



## Kyle Sprag

Lee Robinson said:


> Well...this is a PP thread, not a competition thread. So, in the future...let's stay on topic and perhaps things will be more clear...as apparently you are now conceding to say you actually didn't have any significant disagreement with me when it comes to PP work on the street...although given the nonsense posted within this thread that would be difficult to conclude.


I guess I neither agree nor dis-agree, IMO it would depend on the specific example as to what I believe to be true. That is what makes it an opinion.


----------



## Thomas Barriano

*Struggling Decoy*



Lee Robinson said:


> *
> 
> Well, KS...that proves that either YOU or PSA...one or the other does not know PP work. I would not out a PP dog when dealing with a "FIGHTING" decoy. Do you even realize what you wrote? This is supposed to be a PP topic. If there is a threat, a PP dog should stay in the battle. Even if there are multiple attackers I wouldn't out a PP dog unless the threat was over. Perhaps it would be cool to see a dog out on a STRUGGLING DECOY that was trying to FLEE...but a steet worthy PP dog should not out on a FIGHTING/threatening decoy. If you disagree...well, you miss the point of a PP dog.
> 
> 
> ROTFLMFAO Mr Wannabe saying that KS or PSA (I guess you mean everyone in PSA?) don't know about PP work?
> 2FNFunE.
> IF you has any kind of experience or understanding of training You'd realize that it is up to the handler to decide
> when a dog outs and that a properly trained dog, sport, police or PP should out on either a passive OR a struggling
> decoy.*


----------



## Lee Robinson

KS, just remember...some times when a handler gets knocked out from behind, his "opinion" may not matter, but what his dog will do on the street certainly might.

Anyway, hopefully we can turn a stone and keep it about the dogs in the future.

Gerry, There is a video of Preacher-Man on my website doing a 50 yard send with a decoy acting like you asked. Go there and view it if you wish. OR, you can be more specific and I will see what we can do. Again though, the topic shouldn't be about me. The pictures I posted were only given as an EXAMPLE of one dog that is both a PP dog and safe with kids...and, he has been tested by some of the top police K9 trainers in the country.


----------



## Gerry Grimwood

If this is the link, it doesn't work for me.

http://www.chimerakennels.com/PreacherMansfirstsendfirstsuit.wmv


----------



## Chris McDonald

Gerry Grimwood said:


> If this is the link, it doesn't work for me.
> 
> http://www.chimerakennels.com/PreacherMansfirstsendfirstsuit.wmv


 
whats it take you back to the boat?


----------



## Stelios Sdrolias

Never did i say it is worthless for a dog to out on command.
I said that the request you had (seeing a dog out while the threat is still fighting) is worthless as an exercise and it shows how little you know on street protection.

It seems that you just do bitework with your dogs just to put some pictures up..you are absolutely clueless on PP. If you do not train for the worst case scenarios,dont train at all..

I gave my opinion to Fred Karlsson..so the lip service is on your account.

epilogue

Lee said " but I don't see any realistic street situation where outing a dog on a FIGHTING attacker that was close enough to be a threat would be a wise decision.."

Earlier Lee said "but I don't know if any of them would RELIABLY out on a decoy that is ACTIVELY struggling."

I rest my case..


----------



## Kadi Thingvall

IMO a good protection dog should do what it's told, when it's told. Especially when it comes to the "out". 

Assuming your PPD is one of those rare ones that actually does have to bite to protect some day. What if in the multiple attacker scenario that "attacker" is someone who was actually trying to come to your aid and in the heat of things the dog bit them? You'd better hope your dog will out of a struggling person, since very few people with a decent biting dog attached to them are going to be able to hold perfectly still, or even be willing to in the heat of things, their natural reaction will be to fight the dog or try to flee. And the dog won't do you much good against the real attacker(s) if it's to busy chewing on the one person trying to help you out.

IMO there is a much higher likelyhood of a PPD dog being in a situation where it bites, or attempts to bite, the wrong person during the course of it's life then the right one. That being the case, how much control the owner has is what will prevent (call off) or limit (immediate "out") the amount of damage done to an innocent person.


----------



## Connie Sutherland

You should post more often.


----------



## Butch Cappel

Kadi,

you can "_what if"_ any topic to infinity, but if you have a practical tactical plan you will be prepared for the likely situation, and way ahead for the really unlikely things. But!

if you were at the start of this thread it was about PP tactics. I stated then that we teach Tactics to the handler as much as fighting techniques to the dog. The first thing you do tactically is keep that dog _on leash_ for several reasons that I will not write up again, but in the case you mentioned, if you had followed proper tactical instructions your scenario can't happen. 

Of course there is no way to address every facet of a persons imagination
so we plan for the probable and hope it covers all possibles, which it may not, but I do have a mathematical advantage that way.


----------



## Kadi Thingvall

Butch, 

After 14 pages, the conversation has morphed into multiple topics, it's the nature of a discussion board. IMO the OP got a number of good answers to his initial 'on vs off leash' question. 

However, my statement "a good protection dog should do what it's told, when it's told. " applies even to the original question. A leash shouldn't be required to control a good PPD, it should be trained well enough to do as its told, so on leash or off shouldn't matter. They are dogs, they make mistakes, may not be 100% in all situations, but if your dog doesn't have solid off leash obedience, then IMO it's not a "finished PPD".


----------



## fred karlsson

In Spain´all dog owners got an insurance 100k-250k euro if the dog would bite or kill someone. If your dog would bite someone severaly outside your property walls there could be a problem. If someone gets hurt during a robbery not much would happen.


----------



## Konnie Hein

@ Kadi


Connie Sutherland said:


> You should post more often.


Ditto!


----------



## Butch Cappel

Kadi, 
Agreed _ "a good protection dog should do what it's told", _

Agreed _"should be trained well enough to do as its told, so on leash or off shouldn't matter."_

Agreed. _"They are dogs, they make mistakes, may not be 100% in all situations"_

I certainly can't claim to be 100% in all situations either, maybe you can? My dog who can only be as good as I have made him isn't 100% either. Which is all about why I have a plan with tactics that cover all those potential mistakes. Without those tactics I increase the likelihood of a mistake becoming a fatal incident. 

Disagree _the conversation has morphed into multiple topics, it's the nature of a discussion board._ 
I think it would be more accurate to say "it's the nature of _this_ message board. 

But the original post was one of the few I have ever seen that addressed the tactical side of a PP dog so I thought it important. Few people that think they do PP training or trialing understand proper handling and decision making is as important as the bite work, maybe more.


----------



## Mike Scheiber

Kadi Thingvall said:


> However, my statement "a good protection dog should do what it's told, when it's told. " applies even to the original question. A leash shouldn't be required to control a good PPD, it should be trained well enough to do as its told, so on leash or off shouldn't matter. They are dogs, they make mistakes, may not be 100% in all situations, but if your dog doesn't have solid off leash obedience, then IMO it's not a "finished PPD".


The statement's above should be in the intro of the kinder garden training manual of PPD's


----------



## Kadi Thingvall

Butch Cappel said:


> I certainly can't claim to be 100% in all situations either, maybe you can?


Did I say that? I don't recall saying that.



> Disagree _the conversation has morphed into multiple topics, it's the nature of a discussion board._
> I think it would be more accurate to say "it's the nature of _this_ message board.


It's the nature of every message board I have ever particpated in, especially ones that have threads that go on for longer then 8-10 posts.



> But the original post was one of the few I have ever seen that addressed the tactical side of a PP dog so I thought it important. Few people that think they do PP training or trialing understand proper handling and decision making is as important as the bite work, maybe more.


Nobody is stopping you from discussing tactics. You respond to posts as you see fit, and I'll respond as I see fit. IMO all the tactical discussions in the world will have very limited value if the dog has to remain on leash to stay under control, since you just cut your tatical options in half, or more. In addition, the OP's question was a very generic "should I put my dog on leash?". And my response is, "not if you have solid off leash control". To get more specific about when he should and shouldn't put a leash on, we'd have to know what level of control the OP has on the dogs, otherwise it's all "what ifs"


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen

You can have all the PPD tactics in the world. Someone with the tiniest amount of training will just wait for your dumb ass to leave the dog at home.

Someone with a decent amount of training will just take the dog out.

If someone is coming after you, really coming after you, a dog is absolutley worthless.

If you are looking to decrease your odds of the random theft or rape, then a dog might be of some use.

Trust me on this, a REAL bad guy comes for you, your done.

This is why PPD people love to discuss this. They are talking to suckers all the time. They are talking to believers. I love the idea of Butch talking tactics. That shit cracks me up.

Civilians are lazy, the lack attention to detail, and have been sold a crock of shit with this PPD idea. It is a scam. You have been sold a bill of goods. Because even if your dog was the greatest action hero alive, if there is a good enough reason for you to need all this protection, you are gonna **** up.

THe average person will take the same route to work, will not look around or pay any attention when they walk out the door. They won't even look out a window first to see what is out there.

They still will put themselves in situations over and over and over that the "bad guy" will get them.

If the "bad guy" doesn't appear for a week or two, it gets worse. They get even sloppier. : )

Tactically, civilians are clueless. They really have no idea of what a REAL bad guy will do to get the job done.

And in conclusion, come on, what is it that you are doing that requires more than common sense ??
However, PPD's are a great way to make money. LOL


----------



## fred karlsson

99,99% of people do not have paid hit men or a navy seals team after them...........a dog is not the first or last line of defence when it comes to protection. Discussing other effective means of protection would be very stupid in a forum.

If you have experienced a break in when your kids and wife is home you start to think what you could have done better and how to improve if it happens again. You do not bring out a sawed off shotgun and start spraying led around........beleave me.

A PPD is a perfect compliment when it comes to home security, anyone who dissagree with that probably got a shit dog.


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen

Or, here in the states, we just don't want to deal with the criminal sueing us for getting bit by the dog.

Speaking of shit dogs, do you have any video of this PP dog of yours ??? LOL


----------



## Chris McDonald

Id like to see video, I always like to see video….. no more row boat video though… enough row boat video


----------



## Gerry Grimwood

I've given up on seeing videos of these PPD's, I haven't seen one that looks any better than really bad sport training.

I like how most of the dogs lose all interest when the decoy gets about 10-20 ft away, what would you do if the guy just stood out there and beaned you with rocks ??


----------



## David Ruby

Just for the sake of discussion . . .



Jeff Oehlsen said:


> You can have all the PPD tactics in the world. Someone with the tiniest amount of training will just wait for your dumb ass to leave the dog at home.


Fortunately, most criminals aren't that smart. The Meredith Emerson case shows one example where a woman was attacked, and ultimately murdered, with a Black Lab in tow. She almost got away with martial arts training, and a dog trained to bite _could_ have made a difference, in this case a very big difference in all likelyhood. There are a few other cases; Mary Vincent, a famous hitchhiker who had her forearms cut off and left for dead, used Neos (I believe they were protection trained, pretty sure on that but not 100%) for PP/deterrents. Apparently some people are turned off by double forearm amputees, but I believe most of those were criminals of opportunity and perverts who just bothered he, not people out to get her or stalkers who were trained to take out a house full of Neapolitan Mastiffs.

Then there was the guy who tried to rob a restaurant (yeah, apparently he'd seen Pulp Fiction too) full of police officers:
http://gazettextra.com/news/2009/aug/11/-duty-police-thwart-robbery-attempt/

So the average thug isn't exactly Ivy League material.



> Someone with a decent amount of training will just take the dog out.
> 
> If someone is coming after you, really coming after you, a dog is absolutley worthless.
> 
> If you are looking to decrease your odds of the random theft or rape, then a dog might be of some use.
> 
> Trust me on this, a REAL bad guy comes for you, your done.


I can't disagree with that. On one hand, I think you're right. If somebody sends somebody with training after you, you are pretty much done. I don't think anybody, if they stop and think about it, is getting a PPD just in case somebody sends a SWAT team or professional hitman after them. On the other hand, I think PPDs are effective as a deterrent, and there are people that have either been saved by PPDs in real life, or they're all total BSers (some maybe, but I've talked to a few that I believe are legit).

I have read stories of people who were stalked and attacked and had their dog poisoned. In some regard, that in and of itself is a layer of security if you notice somebody tries taking out your dog(s).



> Civilians are lazy, the lack attention to detail, and have been sold a crock of shit with this PPD idea. It is a scam. You have been sold a bill of goods. Because even if your dog was the greatest action hero alive, if there is a good enough reason for you to need all this protection, you are gonna **** up.
> 
> THe average person will take the same route to work, will not look around or pay any attention when they walk out the door. They won't even look out a window first to see what is out there.
> 
> They still will put themselves in situations over and over and over that the "bad guy" will get them.
> 
> If the "bad guy" doesn't appear for a week or two, it gets worse. They get even sloppier. : )
> 
> Tactically, civilians are clueless. They really have no idea of what a REAL bad guy will do to get the job done.


I'd agree with all of this.

I still believe there can be value in a PPD. I also think of it as almost a why-not situation if you are training a dog for bitework anyway. Why not make it as realistic as possible and plan for what-ifs? I know of at least some who train PPDs (and sport dogs for that matter) and have talked to and researched what happens when criminals attack or you get car jacked or how people react when police send dogs to apprehend, or when dogs are used in security work. This, combined with a social and environmental awareness about all of the stuff you described and being smart about where you go and what you do are all important.

Of course, you are right. Most undoubtedly don't do the other stuff so its value is greatly diminished.



> And in conclusion, come on, what is it that you are doing that requires more than common sense ??
> However, PPD's are a great way to make money. LOL


There are millions of possible scenarios. However, without common sense, the dog's probably worthless in virtually all of them. Just a guess. I've also talked to a few police (current and former) who have, or have had, PP dogs (two were GSD guys, the other actually has Bandogs believe it or not), and the seemed to have common sense and PP dogs at home.

As for PPDs being a great way to make money . . . Yeah, it does have a reputation doesn't it?

-Cheers


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## Alegria Cebreco

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Tactically, civilians are clueless. They really have no idea of what a REAL bad guy will do to get the job done.


I know exactly what a "real" bad guy is capable of which is why I would NEVER leave my safety in the hands (or paws in this case) of my dog, or any "high class" PPD. Its a living animal and can be killed instanstly with little effort. Doesnt take a rocket scienctist or even your neighborhood crackhead to figure that out :roll:

If someone is coming at you and is willing to come through a dog ACTING agressive, obviously you have something they want and I can almost gurantee they arent going to let a dog stop them or are prepared to deal with the dog (with some form of a weapon). But thats just the way my brain works.


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## Lou Castle

Coming in quite a bit late on this and I know this is about PPD's but I think that the only significant difference between one and a PSD (Police Service Dog) should be that the latter must also know how to search for and find people. 

I despise the term "tactical out" where a K-9 handler approaches a suspect that his dog is fighting, grabs the leash or collar and "takes the dog off strong." Usually that means that the dog is choked off the bite because he won't verbally out. Can someone show me where the good tactics are in that move? The handler who, if possible, should have been behind cover/concealment when he sent the dog, now has to leave that relative position of advantage and expose himself to whatever weapon (or empty hand) the suspect has. He has to approach within arm's length (or leash length) to get his dog off the suspect. HOW IS THIS "TACTICAL?" It seems to me that being "tactical" would have the handler calling off the dog while staying behind his position of advantage. 

Anyone working either a PPD or a PSD should be able to out the dog with a verbal command from a distance while the fight between the dog and the suspect is still in progress. This is not just a matter of safety for the handler but for the dog as well. As to not outing a dog "until the threat is over …" If a crook has dropped a weapon and while he's fighting the dog he's able to get to it, I'm going to out the dog and take action myself. 

Danger to PSD's comes not only from crooks but also from police officers who are afraid of them. If your dog accidentally bites one of these guys I can pretty much guarantee that he's NOT going to stand quietly while you give the out command. He's going to be dancing around trying to get the dog off him and perhaps even aggressively fighting the dog. If you can't get him to out while the fight is still going on, that officer may teach your dog the looooooong down himself. 

I firmly believe that a properly selected, properly trained and properly handled PSD (and this applies to PPD's as well) should be on a leash during two periods. The first is training. The second is during crowd control (not too likely for the PPD, but it could happen). Anything else takes away from the safety of both the dog and the handler. 

One last comment. People keep talking about having a dog on leash gives the handler control. I don't think so. It gives _restraint. _ *Control *is, I think, something else altogether.


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## Jerry Lyda

Gerry Grimwood said:


> I've given up on seeing videos of these PPD's, I haven't seen one that looks any better than really bad sport training.
> 
> I like how most of the dogs lose all interest when the decoy gets about 10-20 ft away, what would you do if the guy just stood out there and beaned you with rocks ??


The way you see it is that ALL PPD is crap? I'll agree that most are but why in God's name do ALL PPD trainers get the same wrap? I get tired of all this. It's like saying that all Mals are dogs that go off the deep end or all GSD are crap because of their type. Give me a break, literaly.


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## Gerry Grimwood

When I said These PPD's I meant the ones in this thread, specifically these Mastiff types.

Page 6 of this topic,quote from me..

I for one would really like to see that in a video, I haven't seen many examples of these types of dogs doing protection work.

This topic is just too long now..


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## David Frost

Lou Castle said:


> I despise the term "tactical out" where a K-9 handler approaches a suspect that his dog is fighting, grabs the leash or collar and "takes the dog off strong." Usually that means that the dog is choked off the bite because he won't verbally out.
> .


You just can't keep a secret can ya....... ha ha.

DFrost


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## Jennifer Coulter

Jerry Lyda said:


> The way you see it is that ALL PPD is crap? I'll agree that most are but why in God's name do ALL PPD trainers get the same wrap? I get tired of all this. It's like saying that all Mals are dogs that go off the deep end or all GSD are crap because of their type. Give me a break, literaly.


At least you are not a SAR dog handler:mrgreen::mrgreen:](*,)](*,):roll:


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## Jerry Lyda

Sorry Gerry, my bad.


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## Lou Castle

David Frost said:


> You just can't keep a secret can ya....... ha ha.


That was supposed to be a secret? Crap! Nobody told me!


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