# Malinois VS Sheptastic's



## 2170 (Jan 10, 2008)

There was a huge debate that shephards are far more superior in all aspects than the Malinois. I am very curious to every ones thoughts on the subject. The guy I was talking to had been in SCH for over 10 years and says that in no way shape or form will the Mal every be on the same lever as the shep........ I look forward to your responces.


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Eric FAvetta said:


> There was a huge debate that shephards are far more superior in all aspects than the Malinois. I am very curious to every ones thoughts on the subject. The guy I was talking to had been in SCH for over 10 years and says that in no way shape or form will the Mal every be on the same lever as the shep........ I look forward to your responces.



I'm looking forward to the responses in this thread. I don't have my own opinion on the matter so I'll elucidate what I've been told.

Rottweiler = excellent trackers - fair/good OB - good protection
Malinois - fair tracker - excellent OB - excellent Protection
GSD - good tracker - good ob - good protection


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

The GSD is more superior in Health?....I don't think that the GSD Itself believes that.

I think your friend has made a subjective claim...he cannot prove it, and we cannot prove him wrong. It makes me wonder why...the Malinois is taking over as the premeire LE/military working dog....If thier is a dog superior to it? I think your friend may have a case of the uncle rico syndrome....Back in 1984 Uncle rico could thow a pig skin a quarter mile...and the GSD was the biggest bad ass on the block..

But not to be arrogant...one day the Malinois will be replaced by a more superior dog. It will just happen.


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

I would say it depends on the dog. There are always great dogs out there in either breed (and other breeds as well). 

I have both and Ajay is a Mal in a GSD body, however he is slower to mature when compared to my mals. Other than that, all the dogs I have here are excellent working dogs, regardless of breeds. 

Mals are more spastic than GSD's in general, but there are even exceptions to that rule.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Eric FAvetta said:


> There was a huge debate that shephards are far more superior in all aspects than the Malinois. I am very curious to every ones thoughts on the subject. The guy I was talking to had been in SCH for over 10 years and says that in no way shape or form will the Mal every be on the same lever as the shep........ I look forward to your responces.


 
I think your friends a good example of how Experience does not necassirly make people smarter. Generally when I hear someone bragging about that they have 30 years of training experience....what that means to me...they are using training methods from 30 years ago....30 years later they are still producing mediocre results...giving me substantial proof, those methods do not work.


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## Gary Garner (Jun 30, 2007)

I just think the gene pool seems to be richer at the moment for Malinois than GSDs...

Especially on the continent, France, Belgium, Germany, NL etc

I occasionally visit Germany and work with the Polizei and 8 out of 10 of their dogs are now Malis.

I think the physical capabilities, agility and longevity of the Mali is what holds it higher than the GSDs... (in general). Too often you see great GSDs that are done for by the time they reach 5 or 6.

The Mali and the GSD differ greatly in their training/learning styles and ages which they mature. There is an arguement that the Mali is always a bit nervy, a bit jumpy, never at rest. Whilst the GSD is more suited to a "think it through" sort of dealing with situations.

Having said all of that... I've seen some shit Malis. The problem with us here in the UK, is that many people think the Mali is made with golden fleece and it's some sort of SuperDog. Naivety and lack of experience with the breed in the UK is our downfall.

I'm lucky in that the GSD bitch I have, is built like a Mali. Has the speed and drive of a good Mali and I hope it means I get the best of both worlds.

I've no intention to change my breed of choice from GSD to Mali, knowing that there are still some great GSD bloodlines out there. But I wouldn't rule a Mali out.

I just want 12+ years with the Warrior Princess

I'm lucky in that


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## 2170 (Jan 10, 2008)

M first police dog for the Military was a shep, then I had a Mal and for the first time ever I felt like I had the world and the criminals by the balls. What an awsome tempeer willing to do anything and during training the shephard handlers would get upset because the mali guys were having so much fun with their dogs.. Mali by far top dog for right now. how many nvbk, knpv, nondio or ring sheps do u get. SCH in no longer a breed test. If you can teach a poodle the routine and to never ever ever ever deviate from that routine what would u get? A SCHIII!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Barrie Kirkland (Nov 6, 2007)

I think you are dead on with your opinion of the UK Mali Gary. I really like Malis have owned one & now handle a Black female GSD. 

On a personal level i need a very good tracker & searcher and to date havnt seen these traits coming through with the mali, thats not to say in the future i wont get one, if the opportunity came up to handle one operationally i would take it .


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Eric FAvetta said:


> M first police dog for the Military was a shep, then I had a Mal and for the first time ever I felt like I had the world and the criminals by the balls. What an awsome tempeer willing to do anything and during training the shephard handlers would get upset because the mali guys were having so much fun with their dogs.. Mali by far top dog for right now. how many nvbk, knpv, nondio or ring sheps do u get. SCH in no longer a breed test. If you can teach a poodle the routine and to never ever ever ever deviate from that routine what would u get? A SCHIII!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


And if you don't know the difference between a poodle doing Schutzhund and a good Shepherd doing Schutzhund or a Mal for that matter good luck solder.
Again Schutzhund doesn't by any means qualify a dog to be bread worthy. However if you understand Schutzhund and understand dogs and what is going on in front of you Schutzhund can open quite a large window to peek in and see who the dog is.
Now I appreciate and admire the Mal hell we have one of the top 3 dog's in the country in the club and I watch in awh I wouldn't enjoy owning one or training one just not my kind of dog.
So my vote is for the West German working lines German Shepherd  with a little dash of DDR


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## Courtney Guthrie (Oct 30, 2007)

I personally own a GSD that is really supposed to be a Mal. He is nuts...slower in learning than a Mal but still quicker than a lot of GSD's I've seen. 

I would own either breed as both have excellent atributes. I do think that they are Excellent at some things not just Good......Like every breed in each breed the individual dogs differ.........Give me a good dog and I'll be happy no matter what working breed! 

Courtney


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## jason farrish (Jul 18, 2008)

Im sorry poster but your friend is, how can I say this without being offensive, repugnantly ignorant. As a breed the Malinois is light years ahead of the GSD in all aspects, there are however outstanding examples of the GSD that are the equals or superiors to most malinois but these are exceptions to the rule.

Again your friend may be insane, consider enrolling him in some kind of cult deconditioning program.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Although I'm not a fan of Mals I have no problem acknowledging that the "average" Mal has more agility and speed then the "average" GSD. Nerves/environmental issues are another matter, on "average"!
If there were enough GSD's like Gary's Xena then the Mals would become extinct!  :-#
JMHO of course! :grin: :grin: ;-)


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## Guest (Jan 9, 2009)

Seeing for myself GSDs with great brains with bodies that can't keep up...it's kind of turning into a personally observable trend. I'm even trying to be conservative and keep other people's anecdotes out of it.

Eh.

Thank goodness for all that radiography. God save the Queen.

:|


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

As I think about this argument...Subjective as it maybe.

Each breed has one blaring fault

Malinois-- Nerve issues. No doubt I see many more maliois that are edgy,and weird about things. I also see Malinois that appear to be on the surface to be big bad asses only to be quick to come up the leash. I would also lump hecticness into this category

GSD-- Health. Obviously hip problems. And the conformation of the dog seems to have very little utilitarian use.

Now the assets these dogs have I think we all are already aware of. So choosing either breed based on thier assets is just a matter of personal taste. And when I see great representation of either breed, I can appreciate it for being just that. And I like the Malinois...the personality of this dog compliments my personality

So when it comes down to it. What makes me believe the Malinois is superior? That it's handicap of nerves can be circumvented on a few levels. First I can find a Malinois that does not have nerve issues fairly easily...I have seen enough Malinois that are a little nervous, but have enough drive to overcome it's nerve problem. And if all else should fail the dog most likely will be able to sold to a person whom wishes to use the dog in a non-protection sport.

With the GSD...If a dog has health issues...What do you do with that? there is not much you can do. The game is pretty much over. You can't work em'...Can't sell em.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Probably living in Europe makes me think differently, especially about the GSDs but I'm only talking about the working lines.

Hips - no big problem and as X-raying spines is being done as well as hips and elbows, maybe this will be improved over time.

I have two very healthy specimens, one with excellent hips and elbows - spine not x-rayed. Drive very intense and focused whatever the work. He's big. but with good strong bones and he's muscly and back that you could place a tray on easily and he's fast.

The other one is the same height but lighter and looks like a Mali and is as "crazy" as one but very talented and one day we'll find the key to put him through all his paces. Hee's only still in his crate.

Why am I telling you this? It's because if you take your time and ask questions in the right places, you can find extremely good GSDS. One comes from Haus Pixner and one comes down from Ahron Rose. There are a good number of GSD kennels in Switzerland, Germany and elsewhere. There are obviously a lot of bad ones just as there are bad Malinois producers.

I chose a GSD but had I chosen a Malinois I would have done my homework in the same way. There are extremely good Malinois breeders around, and I would not have worried about getting one with just drive and nothing else. 

I see both breeds in training - a girl I know well at my local club has a Malinois I would not have hesitated tzo take - good nerves, drive, friendly, etc. Let's hope he's healthy but she also has a 6-yr old Mal and a 15 yr. old Mal as well.

It's long but I'm wondering what sort of dogs some of you have come across


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Both breeds are outstanding. They both have their own place and for different reasons. Saying that one breed is better than the other is like saying ALL Pit Bulls are bad. "It's not the breed it's the deed." Purpose equals breed.

Will, I never said that. lol


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## R Janssen (Jul 25, 2008)

The X Malinois/Dutchie has beaten the GSD time after time on every ground.

Even in Schutzhund where the GSD has a cult status, the current champion is a Mal if i remember right.?
To give you a impression how many GSD's did there exam for the KNPV in my province : exacly 1 out of 50 dogs...

My advice, don't take the advice from your friend to serious...


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## Gary Garner (Jun 30, 2007)

rene_limburg said:


> The X Malinois/Dutchie has beaten the GSD time after time on every ground.
> 
> Even in Schutzhund where the GSD has a cult status, the current champion is a Mal if i remember right.?
> To give you a impression how many GSD's did there exam for the KNPV in my province : exacly 1 out of 50 dogs...
> ...


I liked the link. Some great pictures.....

I have a friend/acquainatance here in teh UK that trains KNPV with his dog. He's been out to Holland many times and recently competed (with his Malinois). 

I quite like KNPV.


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## R Janssen (Jul 25, 2008)

Gary Garner said:


> I liked the link. Some great pictures.....
> 
> I have a friend/acquainatance here in teh UK that trains KNPV with his dog. He's been out to Holland many times and recently competed (with his Malinois).
> 
> I quite like KNPV.


Here are 2 site's that you will enjoy.

http://www.pakwerk.nl/
http://www.digidogs.nl/ ---> foto archief

The KNPV is indeed nice, but i'm not to objective i think. 
But there is a lot of knowledge over here so i can understand why he takes the effort to make the trip.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

I think Gary's dog Xena is an good example of what people wish their GSD was like, in terms of enthusiasm and speed. To sustain that level past 3 or 4 years is rare for that breed, also in my opinion, she is doing what she does for the pure joy of it and doesn't have a mean bone in her body.

You can't compare GSD's to Mals, XMals, Dutchies or XDutchies because they are too different. People have their own preferences and trying to figure out which one is best will eventually just turn into a big tit pull (not to be confused with pit bull) which is another breed that has it's good and bad points.


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> I think Gary's dog Xena is an good example of what people wish their GSD was like, in terms of enthusiasm and speed. To sustain that level past 3 or 4 years is rare for that breed, also in my opinion, she is doing what she does for the pure joy of it and doesn't have a mean bone in her body.
> 
> You can't compare GSD's to Mals, XMals, Dutchies or XDutchies because they are too different. People have their own preferences and trying to figure out which one is best will eventually just turn into a big tit pull (not to be confused with pit bull) which is another breed that has it's good and bad points.


I think you can compare when making a decision on what direction you want to go. But that's where it ends. They each have different attributes. There is no one best for everything dog.


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## Melody Greba (Oct 4, 2007)

I'm going to jump in here on this one.
I have an exteme driven gsd-Pike grandson and I have an extreme working mal-Nelton grandson.
Even extreme driven gsds are not like mals. My gsd is highly reactive, my mal is not. My mal has acquired more than what my gsd can, in work but not the sport, and my mal obtained the working skills at a faster and more efficient rate....Mal has a larger vocabulary and with clear training, understands exactly his mission. But my gsd is not only Highly Loyal but more well balanced in other ways and strives to please me. 
GSD-Excellent natural tracker, Very good obedience and Very Strong Protection but, thinking in drive is a problem.
Mal thinks that sch tracking is a mindless activity, obedience excellent, protection excellent.
Mal due to is his self-control in reactivity, can think in high drive for the most part.
I enjoy them both, and each are equal and opposite to each other.


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## Will Kline (Jan 10, 2008)

Jerry Lyda said:


> Both breeds are outstanding. They both have their own place and for different reasons. Saying that one breed is better than the other is like saying ALL Pit Bulls are bad. "It's not the breed it's the deed." Purpose equals breed.
> 
> Will, I never said that. lol


Ahhhh Jerry....I have to admit that just reading your post made me laugh at first and then almost brought a tear to my eye!  ;-)  

I have to admit that whilst I prefer Malis I have also seen a few good GSDs that make me think "well how about that!"

No matter the breed, there will *ALWAYS* be the consideration of how well it fits your personality! Above all, that is the deal maker, because it could be a real monster and the dog that many lust over but it could STILL make your life miserable!


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## Jaana Aadamsoo (Dec 5, 2008)

I have heard a claim that 50% of GSDs are idiots and 75% of Mals are impossible to live with but a good Mal is better than a good GSD any day. I think it shouldn´t be taken too seriously though O


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## Tom Moorcroft (Aug 27, 2008)

As I mentioned in another thread on a similar topic, I'm addicted to Mals. 

#1 - Their personality suits mine - probably the most important thing when selecting a working _partner_, at least to me.

#2 - If my dog jumps 8-10 feet down to the ground, I prefer he not get injured and be able to continue working. Heck, I want him to enjoy the ride! I guess if I had a GSD, he wouldn't have jumped from such a high place. Hence, I refer us back to #1.

#3 - Mals, at least mine, have ridiculous amounts of energy and even when their "off" and "relaxing," yeah right :twisted: . And, yes, can be quite reactive and hectic. Some people think this is a fault, I call it FUN! (and occasionally a bit painful) Again, back to #1.

#4 - Health - really no need to rehash what's already been said. But, in disaster work we start the actual training between 12-24 months of age and depending upon dog, handler, method of training and other circumstances, it can take 1.5-3 years to have a dog trained to an advanced level and be solid in his work. So, we're now at 2.5-5 years old. Personally, I want to have a dog that will have as long a working life as possible. There are good GSDs in this regard, but currently seem harder to find and much more expensive than a healthy Mal that can do disaster work. I have many friends who work GSDs in disaster, they do awesome work and make my list of dogs who I certify are allowed to come looking for me if I'm stuck under a collapsed structure. Believe it on not, this is a hard list to get on 8) Again, #1 - my personal preference. 

Superiority seems to be very subjective. Even if there is substantial evidence that one breed is better than another for a particular task, it boils down to the handler. For me, I probably will never be as effective a GSD handler as a Mal handler because of my personality and my personal preference.


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## Gary Garner (Jun 30, 2007)

Jaana Aadamsoo said:


> a good Mal is better than a good GSD any day


I might have to beg to differ on that one  =;


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## Jaana Aadamsoo (Dec 5, 2008)

Not going to argue- it is just what I have heard from people that know better than me. We here have mostly crappy GSDs and no mal has ever done any IPO or VPG in the country and dobermanns rule the sports so I wouldn´t really know.


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## Gary Garner (Jun 30, 2007)

Jaana Aadamsoo said:


> Not going to argue- it is just what I have heard from people that know better than me.


Wasn't going to argue, friend. We're just discussing things, like mates around a table with a good drink 

I'm just lucky that I've got a GSD that's as fast as most Malis. The video on my signature line shows what I mean.

But I'm lucky, I know, to have such an animal. I think the gene pool to choose from, is just richer for Malis than GSDs. You have to hunt less and research less to get what you want.

I wouldn't rule out a Mali in future. I like them a lot. After training with Xena now, I've really got the taste for fast, high drive, high flying dogs. I'd hate to go back to something slow and sedate.

I would, however, try to find it in the GSD world first, but if I couldn't I'd look at a Mali.


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Gary...

You just are lucky enough to have a Mal in a GSD body...LOL

I think there are great attributes to each breed, but you have to look for it and choose carefully. 

That and it really depends on the handlers preference for whatever breed. 

Not sure you can compare the two really closely as they are pretty different. 

I absolutely love ALL of my dogs, and it is for different reasons on each individual dog, although the work ethic is the same. 

Max the Bloodhound makes me laugh when he is so intent on trail that he runs into things....

Rock the Dutchie keeps me trying to outsmart him as he seems to anticipate (correctly) my every move....

Jesea the Mal keeps me on my game to remember to pay attention to the dog on the tug, and not the person I am talking to....or I get wounds that bleed profusely

Ajay the GSD is a hell of a tracking dog and is helping me learn tracking vs trailing, that and he is a big goofball so he makes me shake my head and giggle a lot

Nikki the Mal keeps people in their cars when they pull up.....barking with a tennis ball in her mouth.....wouldn't hurt a fly, just wants someone, anyone to throw the ball

and then there is Marley the Lab....dumb as a post, but keeps our freezer full of pheasants....YUMMY!!!

All different, but when asked to work, they get er done. 

(no to mention all have good physical structures and are very athletic and the tests on all came back good)


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Carol Boche said:


> Gary...
> You just are lucky enough to have a Mal in a GSD body...LOl


:-s Looks to me like he has a nice GSD


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Mike Scheiber said:


> :-s Looks to me like he has a nice GSD



Yes he does....I agree. 

That was my sad attempt at a joke.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Carol Boche said:


> Yes he does....I agree.
> 
> That was my sad attempt at a joke.


Oh:lol::wink:


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