# Real Dog vs Sports Dog : A Perspective



## James Degale

Go to Articles Link

http://www.vandebiezenhoeve.com/index_ENG.htm

Interview of : Pierre Wahlström 

Think about this: Some times we see real good service dogs in world championships etc that place high on the results lists, and sometimes we see competition dogs that does a good job in the military or police.

This should be a good proof that the statement “sport dog” or real dog”
is inaccurate and completely wrong! A good German shepherd is a dog for any breeding program,. This dog should be used, not the rest!!


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## David Frost

I agree a good dog is a good dog and is capable of doing many things. I'm not versed enough in schutzhund to say there are PSD participating and scoring well. From what I've seen in the trials I'm attended some of the routines would be difficult, certainly not impossible. From what I've gained from some of the "trainers" that specialize in PPD they go more for the nervy dogs that probably wouldn't make good PSD's. On the other hand, I've seen some dog in trial (PPD) that I would have put in my program in a heartbeat. From that I can only surmise..... it is certainly the dog.

DFrost


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## Daryl Ehret

"The GOOD dog, that we should/have to use in our breeding, has good fight drive, search abilities, _cooperative abilities and is environmentally strong_."

_The real_ "Golden Middle"


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## mike suttle

I make my living selling police dogs, and I compete in dog sports as well. So I hear all week long from police K-9 handlers who tell me how sport dogs are not as tough as real police dogs, then on weekends if I am at a dog sport trial somewhere I hear sport dog guys telling me how shitty most police dogs are.
I have seen sport dogs that are not tough, not real, and not serious........but trust me I have also seen plenty of police dogs that are not tough, not real, and not serious. I have also seen sport dogs that were extremely tough, real, and serious, and would make excellent police dogs.
Likewise I have seen excellent police dogs that could also make top level sport dogs.
A good dog is where you find it.
I used to travel all over the country in my K-9 equipment business and I had the chance to work hundreds of military and police dogs accross the USA. I hate to say it, but I have chased more police dogs out of buildings than sport dogs off the field for sure.
I will use some of my own dogs as examples:
Take Arko, Endor, or Orry. if you think they would not make super police dogs, you are wrong. However, show me a police department that can pay the price dogs of that caliber sell for?
it is no different than the super drivey field trial labs, they sell for $30,000 and up. Would they make good detection dogs? Most certainly would, but not many departments can pay that much for a single purpose detection dog. So my thoughts are that the best working dogs are not in the police departments, they are in the sport dog homes.


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## David Frost

You've made some very good points Mike. Many of us in the police business realize we are usually getting the top of the bottom of the barrel. No way can most departments pay the premium prices some of the dogs sell for.

Like you, I've seen some good ones and some bad ones on the police side of the fence.

DFrost


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## Matthew Grubb

mike suttle said:


> show me a police department that can pay the price dogs of that caliber sell for? quote]
> 
> I think most in the PSD area realize that the best European prospects never make it here… And the best US breedings cost way too much. The reality is that police departments right now are paying $6K to $7K for 12 to 18 month old green dogs. Good luck telling your boss that you want to buy a $15K dog because you like the breeding. :razz:


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## Gerry Grimwood

mike suttle said:


> So my thoughts are that the best working dogs are not in the police departments, they are in the sport dog homes.


I would hope that's only true because of the number of dogs involved in any sport vs police dogs, also it's easier for an individual to fork out 20k for a once in a lifetime purchase compared to a group that is buying consistently on a long term basis.


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## Matthew Grubb

Gerry... It's all about the money.


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## Gerry Grimwood

If it's about money, then sell pups. The RCMP sells washouts from their breeding program and they have a waiting list for neutered/spayed dogs that are preferred to go to a country home.

Half the people in North America would fondue and eat their dogs if they had the chance to own one from a police dog breeding :lol: 

Wouldn't take long to pay for itself that way, just need a good laywer to draw up a bulletproof waiver for purchasers.


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## mike suttle

It is not all about the money with me. In fact I give the washouts from my breeding program away for free. Some of my free washouts are working as police dogs now, they just did not work to my standard so I gave them away.


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## Matthew Grubb

No... I mean it's all about the money to the political entity.


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## mike suttle

Gerry Grimwood said:


> If it's about money, then sell pups. The RCMP sells washouts from their breeding program and they have a waiting list for neutered/spayed dogs that are preferred to go to a country home.
> 
> Half the people in North America would fondue and eat their dogs if they had the chance to own one from a police dog breeding :lol:
> 
> Wouldn't take long to pay for itself that way, just need a good laywer to draw up a bulletproof waiver for purchasers.


believe me, there is very little money to be made in selling puppies. When I factor in the costs that I have in each of my breeding dogs....(the many trips all over Europe testing potential breeding dogs, the shipping of the dogs, the cost of the dogs themselves which is usually more than the cost of my truck, all of the extensive health testing, the cost of our breeding facility, daily operations costs, dog food, vet care,payroll for the staff, and lets not forget the countless hours of time required to properly bring up the puppy correctly) I sell a puppy for about $1200-$1500 and it will be years before I break even on the cost I have in my breeding program.


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## Gerry Grimwood

mike suttle said:


> believe me, there is very little money to be made in selling puppies. When I factor in the costs that I have in each of my breeding dogs....(the many trips all over Europe testing potential breeding dogs, the shipping of the dogs, the cost of the dogs themselves which is usually more than the cost of my truck, all of the extensive health testing, the cost of our breeding facility, daily operations costs, dog food, vet care, and lets not forget the countless hours of time required to properly bring up the puppy correctly) I sell a puppy for about $1200-$1500 and it will be years before I break even on the cost I have in my breeding program.


I was just giving a hypothetical Mike, some people import a dog and before it's out of the airport it's been bred three times, not really but you know what I mean, it doesn't take long to pay for a dog like that.


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## mike suttle

Gerry Grimwood said:


> I was just giving a hypothetical Mike, some people import a dog and before it's out of the airport it's been bred three times, not really but you know what I mean, it doesn't take long to pay for a dog like that.


Yes, I know what you mean. When I first got Arko I had a ton of people blowing my phone up wanting to breed to him. Then when they found out that I was actually testing the females before I let them breed to Arko, the calls really slowed down. If I would have just allowed Arko to breed to anything I would have paid for him in breeding money the first month I had him. But like I said in an earlier post, it is not all about the money with me, so I really test the females and turn down about 70% of them that want to breed to Arko.
That is why it is hard to make any money doing it, if you have really high standards then you turn down many females that come to breed to your stud, and in the process you turn down $1500 each time as well for stud fee. The same goes for our washouts from our puppy program......each dog we washout, we give away for free instead of selling it at a reduced price. I have seen many $2500 dogs sold from other people that are not as good as our free washouts.
I guess there could be more money in this business if there were no standards set by the breeders and trainers.


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## Michael Santana

mike suttle said:


> Yes, I know what you mean. When I first got Arko I had a ton of people blowing my phone up wanting to breed to him. Then when they found out that I was actually testing the females before I let them breed to Arko, the calls really slowed down. If I would have just allowed Arko to breed to anything I would have paid for him in breeding money the first month I had him. But like I said in an earlier post, it is not all about the money with me, so I really test the females and turn down about 70% of them that want to breed to Arko.
> That is why it is hard to make any money doing it, if you have really high standards then you turn down many females that come to breed to your stud, and in the process you turn down $1500 each time as well for stud fee. The same goes for our washouts from our puppy program......each dog we washout, we give away for free instead of selling it at a reduced price. I have seen many $2500 dogs sold from other people that are not as good as our free washouts.
> I guess there could be more money in this business if there were no standards set by the breeders and trainers.


I completely agree, you cannot call the Better Business Bureau and tell them someone sold you a piece of crap on a leash. Unfortunetly there are alot of BYB and people with half a sleeve and a whip turning out some pretty crappy dogs, but there will always be someone there to buy them. Standards not set in stone are hard to define, and even easier for someone to "mis-define"


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## Chris McDonald

Hey Mike, I would think the budget has a lot to do the police K9 team, I am sure there are exceptions to the rule but for the most part money helps. I know several police departments that have fairly high dollar dogs and many are in towns not that large. They had the best method I’ve seen for raising money, a public dog drive. Put it on the radio and the news paper and the money comes in. All you need are a few businesses to write a check for a few grand each and you’re good to go.


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## David Frost

Matthew Grubb said:


> mike suttle said:
> 
> 
> 
> show me a police department that can pay the price dogs of that caliber sell for? quote]
> 
> Good luck telling your boss that you want to buy a $15K dog because you like the breeding. :razz:
> 
> 
> 
> Ha ha, the phrase; turd in a punch bowl comes to mind. That's about how it would go over.
> 
> DFrost
Click to expand...


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## Mike Di Rago

I was a police handler for a few years here in Canada, and I can say that obtaining good dogs here has always been difficult and that the main source has been from sports people. Prices have climbed from 1500 in the 90's to 4,500-5000 at the present. The dogs we have obtained from the RCMP were dogs that didn't fit their standards for one reason or another. Some were young (less than 18 months old) and turned out fine when mature.
The problem here, and I suppose elsewhere, is the lack of coordination between serious breeders who could supply good dogs, and the fact that they can get more money from sport people who are looking for top competition dogs. 
I agree that money is the final problem and that breeders don't see long term as far as sharing the excellent genetic pool that is available. And this leads to certain larger police forces setting up their own breeding programs. But what happens to the smaller police forces is that they end up buying whatever is avaiable when they need it rather then having a consistent supplier.
Just my opinion
Mike


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## mike suttle

Chris McDonald said:


> Hey Mike, I would think the budget has a lot to do the police K9 team, I am sure there are exceptions to the rule but for the most part money helps. I know several police departments that have fairly high dollar dogs and many are in towns not that large. They had the best method I’ve seen for raising money, a public dog drive. Put it on the radio and the news paper and the money comes in. All you need are a few businesses to write a check for a few grand each and you’re good to go.


You are exactly right.The budget has EVERYTHING to do with a K-9 team. It really amazes me how some departments will tell me they can only pay $3000 for example for a green dual purpose dog. And they think that will get them a great quality dog, so they will go somewhere and buy that margianal dog and struggle for 7 years to make him better. When for a few thousand dollars more they would have gotten a dog with so much better nerves and drives, that could find more drugs, and capture more bad guys. In a 7 year period that means the better quality dog could have been bought for about 85 cents per day more than the budget priced dog cost them. 
For 85 cents per day I would rather have the better dog that I dont have to wonder about when it comes to a dangerous suspect in a dark warehouse late one night, but that is just me.
I would trade the cup of coffee and the doughnut ever night for the added cost of the better dog.


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## mike suttle

Mike Di Rago said:


> I was a police handler for a few years here in Canada, and I can say that obtaining good dogs here has always been difficult and that the main source has been from sports people. Prices have climbed from 1500 in the 90's to 4,500-5000 at the present. The dogs we have obtained from the RCMP were dogs that didn't fit their standards for one reason or another. Some were young (less than 18 months old) and turned out fine when mature.
> The problem here, and I suppose elsewhere, is the lack of coordination between serious breeders who could supply good dogs, and the fact that they can get more money from sport people who are looking for top competition dogs.
> I agree that money is the final problem and that breeders don't see long term as far as sharing the excellent genetic pool that is available. And this leads to certain larger police forces setting up their own breeding programs. But what happens to the smaller police forces is that they end up buying whatever is avaiable when they need it rather then having a consistent supplier.
> Just my opinion
> Mike


One HUGE problem that I see when departments try to start there own breeding program is this.............THEY HAVE NO IDEA HOW TO BREED OR RAISE WORKING DOGS!!!
I have seen this fail miserably many times with departments, in fact, almost everytime.
They think that because John has a great male GSD (likely from unknown bloodlines) and Steve has a great female GSD (also likely from unknown lines) that they will breed those two dogs and majically get 8 puppies that work just like there parents. First of all, even good trainers and handlers usually only have experience with starting with a 14-18 month old dog, so they have no clue how to properly bring up a litter or puppies, and secondly they have no understanding of bloodlines and what lines work well together and what lines are a train wreck. So if John breeds his Czech male with Steves West German female for example, those puppies are destined for failure even in the hands of Ivan Balabanov, and since the guys raising them will likely be a little less skilled than Ivan, well, you can see how this can turn into a disaster quickly.


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## Emilio Rodriguez

I don't think it's the dogs that cost the money. It's the people in between the dog and the buyer that jack up the price. Meaning if you had a knowledgeable person going to one of the not so rich European countries where labor is cheap they could find all kinds of dogs at a very reasonable price. Good dogs are not created by fancy breeding programs, good dogs are created in environments where they are really needed and used.

But it's understandable, everyone has to make a living. I'm just against the idea that I must pay that kind of money for a good dog. The best dog I ever knew was given away to a kennel then sold to my friend for $200. My current dog was also given away free to a friend then I bought it for $1500 just because I knew I wanted him. I'll wager that there are dogs in US that are regularly destroyed/given away to shelters that would make good PSD. Dogs that show the kind of drive necessary for police and protection work are systematically destroyed in this country. I don't know the numbers of dogs required within a year's time by departments in the US, I imagine the number to be high. As such consistently going about it the way I described is probably not feasible for a department but it is feasible for an individual.

I'm not criticizing too much the status quo, it is what it is for a reason. But at least it should be true that if the system works well that all departments and and private buyers who paid high prices have good dogs.


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## mike suttle

Emilio Rodriguez said:


> I don't think it's the dogs that cost the money. It's the people in between the dog and the buyer that jack up the price. Meaning if you had a knowledgeable person going to one of the not so rich European countries where labor is cheap they could find all kinds of dogs at a very reasonable price. Good dogs are not created by fancy breeding programs, good dogs are created in environments where they are really needed and used.
> 
> But it's understandable, everyone has to make a living. I'm just against the idea that I must pay that kind of money for a good dog. The best dog I ever knew was given away to a kennel then sold to my friend for $200. My current dog was also given away free to a friend then I bought it for $1500 just because I knew I wanted him. I'll wager that there are dogs in US that are regularly destroyed/given away to shelters that would make good PSD. Dogs that show the kind of drive necessary for police and protection work are systematically destroyed in this country. I don't know the numbers of dogs required within a year's time by departments in the US, I imagine the number to be high. As such consistently going about it the way I described is probably not feasible for a department but it is feasible for an individual.
> 
> I'm not criticizing too much the status quo, it is what it is for a reason. But at least it should be true that if the system works well that all departments and and private buyers who paid high prices have good dogs.


The problem is that now even the not so rich European countries have figured out that they can get big prices for good dogs, so they are not nearly as cheap as they were even a few years ago.
Plus shipping prices are going up all the time and the Customs broker fees are as well, and so are the crate prices.
To ship a dog from Europe now can cost over $1000. (vet health check, x rays, crate, shipping company pick up fees, actual shipping, Customs broker fees and taxes, etc)
Not to mention that I live 4 hours from the nearest International airport, so for me to drive to get a dog at the airport costs me $120 in gas plus about 10 hours of my time.


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## Michael Santana

mike suttle said:


> The problem is that now even the not so rich European countries have figured out that they can get big prices for good dogs, so they are not nearly as cheap as they were even a few years ago.
> Plus shipping prices are going up all the time and the Customs broker fees are as well, and so are the crate prices.
> To ship a dog from Europe now can cost over $1000. (vet health check, x rays, crate, shipping company pick up fees, actual shipping, Customs broker fees and taxes, etc)
> Not to mention that I live 4 hours from the nearest International airport, so for me to drive to get a dog at the airport costs me $120 in gas plus about 10 hours of my time.


That sucks.


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## Jim Nash

Years ago we used to take donated dogs for our yearly Patrol Dog classes. Big media campaigne to get them every year . We would look through the pounds and Humane Societies also .

We would look at about 100 to 200 dogs just to get 12-15 for that years class . That doesn't count the dogs we washed over the phone . Every year it got harder and harder to find dogs that could do the work and it wasn't cost effective after awhile .

Now we have 2 vendors (current and retire Police Officers /both ex K9)
that go over to Europe to get dogs . I think we are now paying about $7,000 per dog . But the price also depends on the dog . These vendors are not getting rich either . 

The new proplem I see is that the demand is so great for dogs in Europe that not only is the price going up but it is getting harder to get a dog older then 18 months old . Most of the dogs now are younger and we must slow some training down until they mature .


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## mike suttle

Jim Nash said:


> Years ago we used to take donated dogs for our yearly Patrol Dog classes. Big media campaigne to get them every year . We would look through the pounds and Humane Societies also .
> 
> We would look at about 100 to 200 dogs just to get 12-15 for that years class . That doesn't count the dogs we washed over the phone . Every year it got harder and harder to find dogs that could do the work and it wasn't cost effective after awhile .
> 
> Now we have 2 vendors (current and retire Police Officers /both ex K9)
> that go over to Europe to get dogs . I think we are now paying about $7,000 per dog . But the price also depends on the dog . These vendors are not getting rich either .
> 
> The new proplem I see is that the demand is so great for dogs in Europe that not only is the price going up but it is getting harder to get a dog older then 18 months old . Most of the dogs now are younger and we must slow some training down until they mature .


Jim is obviously a man that has a true understanding of the way the police dog vendor game works. His post is 100% accurate in every way.


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## Emilio Rodriguez

mike suttle said:


> The problem is that now even the not so rich European countries have figured out that they can get big prices for good dogs, so they are not nearly as cheap as they were even a few years ago.


True but probably just means one needs to look for a country that others have not converged on. Where communication is limited by yet another language barrier. Dog fanciers exist in all countries. For rottweilers my friend has had good luck in Serbia and Croatia.

If I was into it I would set up shop in south or central America. Labor and upkeep would be minimal. The environment culturally speaking is one conducive to producing strong dogs without hindrance. The only initial problem would be breeding stock. If I was a GSD guy...


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## Matthew Grubb

Jim Nash said:


> but it is getting harder to get a dog older then 18 months old . Most of the dogs now are younger and we must slow some training down until they mature .


Were starting to see 12 and 13 month old Shepherds pop up more and more…. They are still puppies!!!!


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## Jim Nash

Same here Matt and I agree . I'm wondering when the bottom is going to fall out on supplying dogs for PSD work here .


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## Jim Nash

Emilio stated ; 

" True but probably just means one needs to look for a country that others have not converged on. Where communication is limited by yet another language barrier. Dog fanciers exist in all countries. For rottweilers my friend has had good luck in Serbia and Croatia. "

If you can find a place let me know . If you think vendors haven't been looking all over the place for dogs you would be wrong . We have dogs (all different breeds) from Holland , Belgium , Russia , all over the Czech. Republic (countries I can't spell ) , Germany , France , on and on . 

As for Rotts we've used them here in the past and they don't hold up to the cold very well . We still train them for prisons sometimes . That's it . We need dogs with a good coat for the winters . 

I spoke with an ex Police/Military K9 guy from Bosnia and it sounds like there GSD's are huge and lower in drive then what we look for .


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## mike suttle

Jim Nash said:


> Emilio stated ;
> 
> " True but probably just means one needs to look for a country that others have not converged on. Where communication is limited by yet another language barrier. Dog fanciers exist in all countries. For rottweilers my friend has had good luck in Serbia and Croatia. "
> 
> If you can find a place let me know . If you think vendors haven't been looking all over the place for dogs you would be wrong . We have dogs (all different breeds) from Holland , Belgium , Russia , all over the Czech. Republic (countries I can't spell ) , Germany , France , on and on .
> 
> As for Rotts we've used them here in the past and they don't hold up to the cold very well . We still train them for prisons sometimes . That's it . We need dogs with a good coat for the winters .
> 
> I spoke with an ex Police/Military K9 guy from Bosnia and it sounds like there GSD's are huge and lower in drive then what we look for .


You are correct Jim. I spent a lot of time in the US Marines traveling all over the World to countries I can not spell and I always made it my #1 priority to search out the working dog folks in each of those countries, what I saw was less than impressive usually. I have seen many different breeds used in different countries, and this is the bottom line: there is a reason that most of the World who understands working dogs uses three breeds of dogs, and they originate from the same part of the World.


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## Emilio Rodriguez

It's not like you don't get crappy dogs from Germany and elsewhere. It all depends on who you have dealings with.


Jim Nash said:


> As for Rotts we've used them here in the past and they don't hold up to the cold very well.


So as not to derail the thread http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f30/rottweilers-weather-tolerance-10340/


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## Erik Berg

I spoked to a person who visited the police, or if it was the military, in argentina, they had much riesenschnazuers, and didn´t understand why the rest of the world didn´t used them for service. On the other hand, their only job was being angry on a leash without controll, so in a way they filled their function, but would not be suited as a dual purpose PSD with the demands wanted here, doing very long track/searchwork for example.


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## Jim Nash

Emilio , 

If it's that easy do it . It sounds like you could be a very rich man selling the great dogs that are out there just waiting to be found . There's alot of people out there waiting for them .


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## Emilio Rodriguez

My point from the beginning was that as an individual looking for a good dog I don't feel I need to pay those prices. The moment you're trying to supply the kind of demand for PSD I gather from Mike's and other's posts I'm sure you're going to run into problems using any kind of search and procurement system. This is the reason there's a lack of good dogs for PSD professed by Mike Suttle and others.

Keep in mind this thread is in the protection section not in the PSD section and the discussion started out comparing sport dogs to "real" dogs. My dog is not a PSD but it's a real dog and a real good dog. Not everything has to boil down to PSD as the ultimate selection criteria fo a dog. My point again is that an individual can put as much resources as they want to find that dog, unlike a police departement that will only go so far. BTW going prices for "good" dogs in the private sector are astronomical compared to some of the prices that were mentioned in this thread. An individual in America has the possibility to go further than a state run department in most endeavors be they dogs, self defense training, firearms and training, training driving a vehicle, you name it. An individual is also not limited to certain breeds due to the need to present a public image. There's just so much more to choose from.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

His underwear is brown, he wears the fart king crown.

That is what I have to say to this.


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## James Degale

Yes why has my thread been hijacked, eh, lol.

A good point Pierre made was an average dog can be made excellent by outstanding training. As part of his job, he is in a unique position to assess young green dogs from his own breeding and sometimes as he says the super dog does not reproduce which suggests the genetics were average but training was superb. It would be fantastic to be able to get such first hand knowledge of a dog's progeny.


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## Jim Nash

Emilio , 

That's the thing about talking to you . I never know where you are coming from . You preach more than anything else . Very little "real" information coming from you . I was going to ask about your definition of "real" but instead I think I'll just add you to my ignore list . 

Jeff stated;

" His underwear is brown, he wears the fart king crown.

That is what I have to say to this. "

For some reason I got more out of that then anything I read from Emilio . Thanks Jeff .


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Nature tends to go back to average. That is why reading a dog is fundamental. There are plenty of dogs out there that have really good training, but are not that much of a dog. We have had threads on this in the past about the B&H being a shaped exercise, and hiding what a dog really is.

Knowing the training of the dog is very important. I have had dogs in the past that made me look very good. I currently have a dog that makes me look like an idiot.

I know when I was a kid, I really like the dog that won. I was told 8 million times that you want to look at the dogs around 20th place, and then go find the really good trainer, that can only get this place with his dog. This is the dog you get a puppy from.

I am sure right now, Buko could get 20th out of 4 easily enough. LOL


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## Emilio Rodriguez

Jim Nash said:


> Emilio ,
> 
> That's the thing about talking to you . I never know where you are coming from . You preach more than anything else . Very little "real" information coming from you . I was going to ask about your definition of "real" but instead I think I'll just add you to my ignore list .
> 
> Jeff stated;
> 
> " His underwear is brown, he wears the fart king crown.
> 
> That is what I have to say to this. "
> 
> For some reason I got more out of that then anything I read from Emilio . Thanks Jeff .


Jeez you have your panties in a bunch. I don't blame you though after I called you out on that stupid shit about rottweilers non handling the cold well. I understand you just like to regurgitate things you hear from other people just as smart as yourself. But why did you have to go and quote him?

Disgruntled again is JeffO,
been so long without gettin' laid..
I feel for you bro,
only getting some after you get paid..


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## todd pavlus

Emilio Rodriguez said:


> Jeez you have your panties in a bunch. I don't blame you though after I called you out on that stupid shit about rottweilers non handling the cold well. I understand you just like to regurgitate things you hear from other people just as smart as yourself. But why did you have to go and quote him?
> 
> Disgruntled again is JeffO,
> been so long without gettin' laid..
> I feel for you bro,
> only getting some after you get paid..


Now we can add poet to the list of his talents:-o


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## Gerry Grimwood

todd pavlus said:


> Now we can add poet to the list of his talents:-o


Urine, urine like ammonia..

Someday I'd like to own ya.


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## mike suttle

Emilio Rodriguez said:


> It's not like you don't get crappy dogs from Germany and elsewhere. It all depends on who you have dealings with.So as not to derail the thread http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f30/rottweilers-weather-tolerance-10340/


My experience with Rottweilers has not been their inability to handle cold weather, it has been their inability to handle pressure from the man chasing them off the field or out of the building.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: Disgruntled again is JeffO,
been so long without gettin' laid..
I feel for you bro,
only getting some after you get paid..

Sure if she is hot enough. But then again, you live in Fla, the retard capitol of the world.

I enjoyed my time there, simply because the girls are not fat hogs, and are hot. The bonus is that they are dumber than anyone can possibly imagine. 


Kinda like you.


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## Chip Blasiole

Emilio,
I don't know anything about your dog or your training of him other than that you focus on PP. Do you think your dog has the forwardness, hunt drive and independence to perform well in a building search type of scenario, where the dog has to work off leash, out of sight of the handler and engage a passive suspect strongly. My biased perception against PP dogs is that they are overly defensive and aren't inclined to work away from the handler as well, especially when the handler is out of sight. An exception might be when the dog is showing territorial aggression in his own fenced yard. I'm not saying your dog isn't capable of a strong building search apprehension, but am just curious.


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## mike suttle

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: Disgruntled again is JeffO,
> been so long without gettin' laid..
> I feel for you bro,
> only getting some after you get paid..
> 
> Sure if she is hot enough. But then again, you live in Fla, the retard capitol of the world.
> 
> I enjoyed my time there, simply because the girls are not fat hogs, and are hot. The bonus is that they are dumber than anyone can possibly imagine.
> 
> 
> Kinda like you.


Dude, you live in Texas now....perhaps the only state in the USA with more hot girls than Florida :razz: 
I had to import my wife from Florida. She was just dumb enough to marry a dog guy from WV.


+


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Hot Texas girls are looking for the free ride.

Cash, gas, or ass, no one rides for free !!! LOL


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## Emilio Rodriguez

Chip, I'll put it this way; I never did any bite development with my dog, nor increase his desire to go hunt the decoy. All I did up to now is try to make him bark with which I had a hell of time, he's all offense. I'm just not concerned about that other stuff because I know it's there. I'll put up a vid some time.


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## Julie Ann Alvarez

Emilio Rodriguez said:


> Chip, I'll put it this way; I never did any bite development with my dog, nor increase his desire to go hunt the decoy. All I did up to now is try to make him bark with which I had a hell of time, he's all offense. I'm just not concerned about that other stuff because I know it's there. I'll put up a vid some time.


Emilo I am curious how you know "it's there" if you haven't tapped anything yet :-k ?

Thanks,

Julie


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## Jim Nash

Julie , 

Emilio does nothing but come on here and spout stuff he thinks he knows with nothing to back up why he believes the things he does . You will get nothing close to an answer with any substance . He's got a pet that he trains using old heavily defensive training methods. He believes he's invented something new and others just can't comprehend his genius . He's got an unproven dog yet he knows it's a "real" dog . 

Good Luck though .


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Ahhh yes, the old "tapping" theory. I use it with women. : )


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## Courtney Guthrie

I agree with Julie. How do you know what you got if you haven't "tapped" into anything yet? It's like a car, how do you know how fast it'll really go, if you haven't opened it up all the way? 

Courtney


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## Matthew Grubb

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Ahhh yes, the old "tapping" theory. I use it with women. : )


My wife uses the “tapping” theory with my wallet. :-$


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## Bob Scott

Jeff, that's tapping, not tapeing! 
Duct tape works with only so many wimmins! :roll:


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## Dwyras Brown

Duct tape has lots of uses. I saw Jeff's doll all covered in duct tape. Had Buko doing the object guard.


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## jim kirkendall

Now we are getting somewhere.Yep ,there is a difference in a police dog and a personal protection dog.I DO want them defensive and don't require them to do building searches. I also do not want them going very far to get a bite.I want them around me period.Personally I agree with the premise that that the dog is 1/3 breeding,1/3 feeding, and 1/3 training.In the livestocl show biz there are lots of champions made by superior feeding programs. cows,hogs, sheep!Another perspective I have on puppies is this. If u really have a high standard on what you think a dog should do(police dog for example) you are lucky to get 2 pups from a litter that will really do the deal.I have experienced all of this in the **** dog world over a long period of time and to a lesser extinct in protection/police dogs.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

I have had a lot of weird requests from women over the years, but no duct tape. Would of weirded me out a lot less than some.:-o :-o :-o


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## Jim Nash

Jim K. stated ;


" Now we are getting somewhere.Yep ,there is a difference in a police dog and a personal protection dog.I DO want them defensive and don't require them to do building searches. "


Jim K. , I understand that there is no requirement to doing building searches or having the dog far away from the handler for a PPD . But my question with most PPD folks is why wouldn't you want a more confident dog by starting off with more of a foundation in prey and confidence building instead of pushing the dog into defense so quickly . The more confident they are the better they will perform when they are needed to protect you .

Many PSD handlers ( I hope most ) do alot of confidence building to prepare their dogs for going out searching and confronting a badguy . If the dogs not confident it will avoid finding the suspect . If done right and the dog is confident this also gives us a better dog if it's called on to protect the handler .

I'm not saying PPD handlers should work on searches away from their handlers , I'm just wondering why they don't do more (more , I know most do some in prey initially, just not as much as PSD's) foundation work starting in prey , working their way up more gradually to defense and confidence building .

To me when I hear some PPD folks talking about having a defensive dog I think they are just taking a short cut in training and are impressed with the way their dogs look in defense at the end of their leash . Most dogs even PSD's have more confidence near their handlers why not build and prepare a dog to work even better when called upon ?

I just want to add I'm not making a blanket statement about all PPD trainers .


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## jim kirkendall

U bring up good points for sure. Actually my last doberman would do a mini-search when I returned to the hse from a walk. i would give her a "go see' command" and she would look all around the yard.Also it is true that it might be a shortcut .I'm going to be open minded about it cause I am allways looking to improve.I do think with a good decoy,putting the dog in defense does not make them less confident. thanks


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## Dwyras Brown

Jim Nash, I guess I'm lucky. I train my dog the same as our patrol K9's, but with less focus on chsing apprehension. I can let my dog loose to do a search and I do it a lot at home to make sure noone is inside when I return. I have the dog do this because I have him as protection for my wife and family. She's 5'2" (midget compared to my 6'3") and is afraid of guns. I live pretty close to the border and have 3 minor children. I want to make sure the place is safe for them, so I train my dogs to have a lot of fight and to protect my family, not to chase a running person. Every one knows California is the land of the lawsuit, suit I don't want my dog chasing anyone.

I start my dogs in prey and work them up to defense gradually. I'm lucky enough to have friends who are still active police k9 handlers and trainers, so I keep my traininng close to what I know. But it is still a PPD not a police K9.


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## Jim Nash

Dwyras ,

You are not the type of PPD trainer I was referring to . I was talking about the PPD trainers that move to pushing their dogs into defense quickly in their training skipping many of the confidence building and performance building steps that starting in prey can give them . 

I also shouldn't put this type of heavily defensive training on PPD trainers only . I just seem to see a higher percentage of them training this way then in sport or PSD's .

I agree there is a difference between PPD's and PSD's . PSD's need to be very confident if we expect them to go out and actually find someone that they know could hurt them . This confidence building however will also payoff with a more confident dog coming to save my behind if I need him to protect me .


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## Bob Scott

Jim Nash said:


> Dwyras ,
> 
> You are not the type of PPD trainer I was referring to . I was talking about the PPD trainers that move to pushing their dogs into defense quickly in their training skipping many of the confidence building and performance building steps that starting in prey can give them .
> 
> I also shouldn't put this type of heavily defensive training on PPD trainers only . I just seem to see a higher percentage of them training this way then in sport or PSD's .
> 
> I agree there is a difference between PPD's and PSD's . PSD's need to be very confident if we expect them to go out and actually find someone that they know could hurt them . This confidence building however will also payoff with a more confident dog coming to save my behind if I need him to protect me .


The dog trained with heavy, early defence will often bail if the opportunity arises. 
Defence by itself is "I gotta bite or get hurt". 
Help the dog want to fight, enjoy the fight, not just HAVE to fight!
Just because a dog is standing in front of you snarling and lunging doesn't mean it wants to be there.


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## James Degale

Jim Nash said:


> Jim K. stated ;
> 
> 
> I'm not saying PPD handlers should work on searches away from their handlers , I'm just wondering why they don't do more (more , I know most do some in prey initially, just not as much as PSD's) foundation work starting in prey , working their way up more gradually to defense and confidence building .
> 
> To me when I hear some PPD folks talking about having a defensive dog I think they are just taking a short cut in training and are impressed with the way their dogs look in defense at the end of their leash . Most dogs even PSD's have more confidence near their handlers why not build and prepare a dog to work even better when called upon ?
> 
> I just want to add I'm not making a blanket statement about all PPD trainers .


Yes, you are making a blanket statement. Of course the foundation is loads of prey, then fight and confidence building on the helper. What did you think?! Defense is put in when the dog is mature, confident in the bite and in different scenarios, even then you build that up gradually. The difference with PPD is that training is focussed on handler protection which not as easy as the layman, sport trainer thinks. Doesn't mean that the dog isn't or cannot be trained to do other things too!!


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## Jim Nash

James Degale stated;

" Yes, you are making a blanket statement. Of course the foundation is loads of prey, then fight and confidence building on the helper. What did you think?! Defense is put in when the dog is mature, confident in the bite and in different scenarios, even then you build that up gradually. The difference with PPD is that training is focussed on handler protection which not as easy as the layman, sport trainer thinks. Doesn't mean that it isn't or cannot be trained to do other things too!! "

James , I'm sorry you feel that way . I encourage you to reread all of my posts in this discussion . 

You sound alot different then many(not all) PPD handlers I have spoke with .


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## Michael Santana

Once a dog is in defense, Its fight or flight. In tranining you make it stay there, so it has to fight. In the "real" world a dog with no confidence has no reason to stay there. Alot would probably stay, but would you really want that risk? Why not give him a healthier balance?


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## Jerry Lyda

Not many will stay.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Just another thing to think about, I have seen many many people not recognize dogs going into defense when they "thought" they were "all prey". Defense is what the dog decides it is, and not what the "helper" decides it is.

I have seen many many trainers do some seriously terrible "defense work" and you can see all the holes they are putting into the dog. Once you do this, you can cover it up, but it is always there.

If you are confused about this, for all the PP people that think that FR is all prey, go and look at the video I posted.


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## Kadi Thingvall

LOL I will never forget the time I took one of my dogs to a new club. Just wanted to show him a new field, new helper, work on the barking, etc. I told the decoy "only do prey work, no defense on this dog at all". He goes behind the blind, then peeks out, hissing at the dog, and slowly starts to come out of the blind completely frontal and "stalking" him, hissing at him. I said "wait, whoa, what are you doing, I said no defense, prey only" and he looks at me and says "I am doing prey only". ](*,) ](*,) 

I told him to give my dog a fast bite on the tug that was laying on the ground, and off to the car we went.


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## Michael Santana

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Just another thing to think about, I have seen many many people not recognize dogs going into defense when they "thought" they were "all prey". Defense is what the dog decides it is, and not what the "helper" decides it is.


Perfectly stated.


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## Jerry Lyda

Jeff, we have seen videos just recently haven't we. Now what was that trainers name?


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## James Degale

Every dog reacts differently to cues and pressure depending on experience, maturity, training, nerve and threshold. Sometimes it is appropriate to test the dog on a new helper in prey or defense, depends on the dog and where you are at in training and what you are planning to achieve.

In training, a trainer should start with the ideal performance in mind, a dog that is confident, happy in its work, and wants to dominate the helper, wants to win. 

You do not say I want to train prey for 10 minutes then defense another 10 minutes. In reality defense, fight and prey is all intermingled and a good helper makes adjustments quickly. You read the dog and react and work it in order to develop it into the ideal you have in your mind. You are planning ahead for the next 5 to10 sessions, not deciding what to do on the day.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

The mighty duck man, of course.


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## Kadi Thingvall

James Degale said:


> Every dog reacts differently to cues and pressure depending on experience, maturity, training, nerve and threshold. Sometimes it is appropriate to test the dog on a new helper in prey or defense, depends on the dog and where you are at in training and what you are planning to achieve.
> 
> In training, a trainer should start with the ideal performance in mind, a dog that is confident, happy in its work, and wants to dominate the helper, wants to win.


I agree with the first part of your post about how different dogs react to cues/pressure, but disagree with this part.



> You do not say I want to train prey for 10 minutes then defense another 10 minutes. In reality defense, fight and prey is all intermingled and a good helper makes adjustments quickly. You read the dog and react and work it in order to develop it into the ideal you have in your mind. You are planning ahead for the next 5 to10 sessions, not deciding what to do on the day.


I have a game plan in mind when I'm training that takes the future into account, but I also most definitely do decide what to do "on the day". Each training session is looked at individually, the overall game plan is based on the individual day. Just like I don't work on every single skill every single training session, but may focus on just a few in a given session, I may not focus on every drive. And depending on the dog, where it's at in the training, what I'm working on or hoping to achieve I definitely will tell a decoy "prey work only today" or "lets do some prey work, then end with some defensive stuff". The drives can be intermingled when the dog is working, but a good helper can also read the dog and keep them in one drive the entire time. Now generally we don't even talk about drives in training, we just work the dog, but if I take a dog out and tell a helper "prey work only" then I expect to see the dog kept in prey the entire time, if the helper can't do that, I don't want them working the dog. I'm not taking into account dogs that are so defensive just the presence of the helper puts them into defense, since I wouldn't keep a dog like that.


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## Al Curbow

It's all the dog,


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## James Degale

Kadi, I hate typing. You are saying what I mean, just a lot clearer. 

The absolute key is reading the dog and knowing where you are going to end up with him 2-3 years down the line.


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## vincent demaio

mike suttle said:


> The problem is that now even the not so rich European countries have figured out that they can get big prices for good dogs, so they are not nearly as cheap as they were even a few years ago.
> Plus shipping prices are going up all the time and the Customs broker fees are as well, and so are the crate prices.
> To ship a dog from Europe now can cost over $1000. (vet health check, x rays, crate, shipping company pick up fees, actual shipping, Customs broker fees and taxes, etc)
> Not to mention that I live 4 hours from the nearest International airport, so for me to drive to get a dog at the airport costs me $120 in gas plus about 10 hours of my time.


i dont know much about police dogs,or sport dogs for that matter..the guy i bought my mali pup from sells alot of police..he was very helpful and spebt countlees hours on the phone with me before i got my pup..again i dont know if the dogs are good..im just a newbie..the guys name is mike winstead..of absolute k-9 in georgia..so if people are looking for police dogs maybe he might be good to try...again im a newbie..i might be wrong


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## Jeff Oehlsen

How much does a police go for now days ???


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## Mike Scheiber

This was a good thread I read all 8 pages some classic Emilio god I miss that guy I keep thinking he may reincarnate him self and return one day. 
Lazy boring night in Minneapolis


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## Lee Robinson

If you have been exposed to enough dogs in each arena, we all know there are good PP dogs out there, good sport dogs out there, and good patrol dogs out there. If exposed to enough, we also know there is junk out there in each of these arenas as well.


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## milder batmusen

James Degale said:


> Go to Articles Link
> 
> http://www.vandebiezenhoeve.com/index_ENG.htm
> 
> Interview of : Pierre Wahlström
> 
> Think about this: Some times we see real good service dogs in world championships etc that place high on the results lists, and sometimes we see competition dogs that does a good job in the military or police.
> 
> *This should be a good proof that the statement “sport dog” or real dog”
> is inaccurate and completely wrong! A good German shepherd is a dog for any breeding program,. This dog should be used, not the rest!!
> *
> I totally agree but I rarely se a good dog that can do it all even it is IPO,KNPV,RING,POLICEWORK search and rescue work
> 
> that is the kind of dog im looking for at versitile dog that has the drive to do it all
> 
> I just dont see it that much


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