# Stay Issue--Please Suggest



## Cindy Orr (Jul 8, 2009)

Looking for suggestions on how to stop a stay issue. My dog has been Open A 8 times, we have two legs. We lost 4 legs due to stay issue. He follows me out of the ring. Our last trial was a disaster. He did not drop, went down on the sit (first time) and followed me out on the down. We have not shown since February, and obviously will not be.

I am looking for suggestions. yes, he was proofed. Yes, he has been lots of places. When he was forced to break stays, to be corrected, is when the problems started. Prior to that, we did not have issues. He has had opposition reflex to pull him out. He has had pops on the collar. He has had someone feeding him. 

I have everything from basically correct the crap out of him, to don't correct him have someone feed him while in a stay. Somewhere in the middle there has to be a solution.

We were at a training workshop this past weekend. He did a stay in the ring, while someone else was working with their dog. A sit stay. He did not budge while they were working. BUT< the main trainer walked up to him and said "let's go" and he got right up. He has been proofed for it, but falls for it every time. Every time!! I went back and corrected put him back. Same thing happened again. I did the same thing. 3rd time, he bolted (he and this trainer had a little scuffle earlier, and I think he is scared of her now).....bolted across the ring, over a jump, right to me. I thought he was going to stay, because he just leaned away from her, but then took off. I was there to grab him, and put him back. I then moved him into a down. He had a prong on, I yelled "no" and popped him with the prong, and put him back...

So I am at a loss as to what to do. He did very well in Novice, was the Top Novice A dog for our breed last year. Did well at those open trials, not the scores I would have liked, but still well enough. Until the stay thing. 

The trainer yesterday who ran the worskshop says I have to let him know that him staying is a matter of life and death. That means I have to make my correction count. I must admit I am a little squeamish about doling out the "20 dollar corrections" as they are dubbed, yet, I do not think "putting a cookie on it" is going to help either. 

My dog I think feels stress. The problem is that is fine, but he still has to stay. 

All other training is fine. We are approaching proofing stage of utility. 

I should add that he was always solid on stays, which maybe is the problem. perhaps if he had messed around on stays, they could have been fixed and corrected long ago. I never thought I would have a stay problem.

Cindy Orr


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## Tammy St. Louis (Feb 17, 2010)

I would stop messing with all the proofing, I feel you may be screwing him up , he doesnt understand and is now confused and trying just to be with you 
i have had issues with my dogs going down on the sit stay out of sight and sitting on the down 

I usually fix this buy paying for a correction match and asking if the JUDGE can pull the dog up if it lyes down on a sit stay , not a huge correction, just pull him up , tell him no whatever , 

also go back to going back and giving treats for the proper behaviour, you go out of the ring the dog doesnt follow turn around tell him good and give him a treat, leave again, wit 30 sec go back give treat and so on 

your dog is stressed for sure , and i am sure you are also now, which wont help him 
i wouldnt correct the crap out of him unless you feel he is doing it just to be a jerk , which i do not get that feeling from your post, he seems unsure , 

not sure if you can go back into Novice C for a trail or 2 where your sits and downs are in sight and you will still have the same nervousness?


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## Cindy Orr (Jul 8, 2009)

Not a bad idea. We have not done Open yet in UKC, I could do Novice C in UKC (he has a U-CD as well as CD), but UKC has Novice C. Don't think I could go backwards in AKC, but I do have two other options (I think): Grad Novice and Wild Card Open. I would have to read the regs for Wild Card Open....not sure if they let you mess around with stays. UKC trials are far and few between here. I was hoping to use the ones in the fall to get his U-CDX, then stay in Open B while furthering utilit training.

I feel he is stressed. No, he is not the kind of dog to do things to be a jerk. He wants to please, and is very focused. I think his stress overrides his ability to stay. 

I don't think over correcting, or any further proofing is going to matter. To me he was set up to be corrected, which as a novice trainer, I thought I would have a "bomb proof" dog. He is my first dog doing this with. 

We are currently in a motivational stay class, where he gets a treat, and someone gives him a treat during the stay. 

I have two trainers, my regular one, then a nationaly known one. They are rather of the same mindset as far as stays. He needs to stay, no matter what, which of course I agree with, but one says he is stressed the other says he is not, that he has figured out that he can get up and follow me out. Both scoff at the motivational stay class.

*sigh*


Cindy Orr


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## Matthew Grubb (Nov 16, 2007)

In training (day to day stuff) how often do you call him to you out of the down?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

might be a good time to "think" about an e collar..


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Out of curiosity what breed is the dog ?


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

I'm a big fan of motivational training, but I think it is making your problem worse. Here's why - your dog is in a pattern of always getting food from a person in the ring. Someone in the ring.. he stays. No one in the ring, he thinks he won't get a reward, he leaves. The intent was to teach the dog rewards come away from you, but I guess your dog is too smart for that. 

First thing to do is to break this pattern. The intermittent rewards during the stay are not working right now. So move to reward FROM YOU at the end of the stay. Deliver rewards AWAY from you (throw reward to dog). Use random, intermittent reward schedules. Mix it up!

Video tape and look for patterns. People fall into traps. I get bored and don't train stays longer than 30 seconds. Guess what - my dogs won't stay longer than 30 seconds unless I consciously work to break my pattern. A lot of people fall into the trap of continuous praise during a stay. One of my clients praises her dog every 4-6 seconds - guess what! - her dog won't do ANY behavior for longer than 6 seconds.

Unfortunately, your dog has started to break stays - self rewarding. Yelling, placing, going back to pop the leash are all TERRIBLE timing and only work to stress out the dog and create conflict in the stay. 

I vote for an ecollar to fix the damage done.

I'm also unclear what you are doing to release him from the stay. That is the most crucial part of stay training, and the part people tend to screw up. Moving to mechanical communication (clicker and e collar) to make communication clear while you retrain yourself is the way to go.


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## Cindy Orr (Jul 8, 2009)

Great, more questions....we can maybe get a solution.

First, he is a Bernese Mtn. Dog, will turn three in August. He had two CD's by the time he was two, did very well, started in Open in NOvember, so just a little past two. He also trains for draftwork as well. So he is on the younger side for this, plus he is training for utility. We also did some tracking, but it did not go as well as I thought. I think he kept looking for too much feedback from me, but who knows.

Second, we do use an ecollar sometiems, for certain things (has dramatically improved heeling), he knows what it means, how to turn it off, etc. I would not be against using it for stays, not sure how. 

Third, I do not know what that means calling him out of a down??? Someone asked that, and I do not understand the question. 

He is not a hard dog, not a soft dog. Just right in my opinion. He works methodically, learns fast, can take a correction, but maybe not a big correction. He is big -- of course---but he is not a lab that can take whatever you dish out and keep on smiling.

Question: isn't unfair to have a dog in a sit stay, and have someone else come along and try to get him out, by saying come on doggy, let's go???? That will never happen in the ring, nor will I ever leave him in a stay somwehre where that could happen. Now if I have him in a stay, and someone comes wanting to pet him, he must stay. 
Cindy


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## Cindy Orr (Jul 8, 2009)

I release him, by returning to heel position, quietly praising him, then saying"OK". 

Again, I am not against the ecollar, at all, so how I do it? 

I think too much stress and confusion has been put on him as well with stays. He probably thinks, gee I stay, and something bad happens. 

I think something new and "fresh" needs to happen, something that will not create more stress, but yes communicate to him, that even if he does feel stressed about me leaving, he has a job to do, and that any stress must not override that job. 

So, for those recommending ecollar, how would I set it up? Unless he is being tricked in a horrible fashion, he does not break stays. You can throw balls, call commands, throw food, etc. I work my other dog in front of him, (that will sometiems cause him to break, but I do not know how fair that is to correct? Might be fair? Maybe an ecollar froma distance would work?).

I am working on using more me, and less food in my training. 

I think my computer is breaking, so I may not get back to this today. Its flashing red! 

Cindy


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Cindy Orr said:


> Question: isn't unfair to have a dog in a sit stay, and have someone else come along and try to get him out, by saying come on doggy, let's go???? That will never happen in the ring, nor will I ever leave him in a stay somwehre where that could happen. Now if I have him in a stay, and someone comes wanting to pet him, he must stay.
> Cindy


IMHO it is not unfair. maybe if your goal is just to pass in the ring, in your chosen venue, and you don't want a SOLID stay.

I wouldn't be happy until the dog ignored ANYONE's attempt to break his position... I like to pull on a long line to try to get the dog to break the command MYSELF , that may be a little unfair to some because its ME doing it, but I do it without giving a release command or a new position command, so the dog is expected to stay, period...
I also like to toss food (hotdog, cheese) around and near and have dog ignore it. 

E-collar is one good way, there are others... Koehler for one. I like the ecollar, the timing is much easier. Didn't catch if it is a sit or a down...but if it's a down, I'd train the dog to keep its head on the ground, doesn't look happy and pretty, but works for keeping downs.


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## Cindy Orr (Jul 8, 2009)

He will stay while food is thrown around him, he will stay while his food is 3 feet, or under him, while the other dog eats. As far as proofing, he falls for someone walking away with him every time. Every time!!! 

I do want a solid stay, I want to go on with him, provided he makes it through utility--or open for that matter!!!. Not OTCH, but OM, UDX (well, we would give it a shot anyway), but can not even consider it till this stay thing gets under control.

As far as the long line, we have done lots of work, I put him in a stay, tug the line as I am walking away, go 30 feet away, tug on it every now and again to pull him out. He stays. He has opposition reflex down pat! My trainer and I have spent whole training sessions going different places working on stays this way. 

I think ecollar can very easily work. Here is one place he breaks, and I never know how to handle, other than to put him back, with a loud firm stay command: when i am working the other dog, and he gets a ton of big physical praise, rather than food, that will cause the Berner to break. I could probably use this to my advantage????

I have tried to incorporate stay into our every day life, where stay means stay till I tell you. 

Cindy Orr


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

_I have tried to incorporate stay into our every day life, where stay means stay till I tell you. _

How do you try to achieve this, where do you do it, what is it that you do and how often/regularly do you do it ?


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

It is more fair to the dog to correct every failure - no matter the consequence. Inconsistency = confusion = stress = failures = corrections = stress = shutting down.

What is the point of tugging on a long line, other than to make you feel good? I see how you can convince yourself that the dog has learned to stay, but from the dog's perspective it is a different behavior. I don't think it was "wrong" or "bad" to train it. I don't see how _from the dog's point of view_ it has anything to do with the rest of your stay training.


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## Cindy Orr (Jul 8, 2009)

I guess just trying to make him break only to be corrected is what bothered me about the opposition reflex stuff in the beginning.

Back to the having somene walk up to him with a let's go doggy or some such thing...is it fair, if it is a trainer that has handled him before, and he "respects" if you will???? Is it fair to have a family member do that? Don't I want him listening to family members (even if I am the one to tell him stay?)?? first and foremost he is our family dog...Say he is in a sit stay, and I tell my son to go over and tell him down, and he downs, (I have done this, and corrected him for it)...is that really fair??? Does that not lead to confusion for the dog? When we did this, I did repeat it till he stayed then praised the heck out of him.

That is where it all gets hazy for me. But again, this is my first dog, and I have people (on like a breed working group) who supposedly never correct their dogs (to the point of not even putting them on a coupler for brace draft work, because heaven forbid one pull and "accidentally" correct the other) to correct the crap, and not much in between.


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## Cindy Orr (Jul 8, 2009)

Oh, no idea what the point of tugging on the long line was, someone had asked... Just something I was told to do, in class, to make sure as I walk away he does not follow because I am tugging--I guess back to the whole "lets go doggy" type thing, and because he was following me out of the ring....Not to make me feel good (was not sure how to take that). 

Maggie had asked how I use stays in every day life, well, maybe not every day (in that I do not do it everyday)...except for staying for his two meals, staying while I walk out the door, staying till I tell him getting out of the car. Stuff like that. I was trying to do it more, with more things, but honestly from about beginning of March till our workshop this weekend (with Connie Cleveland), I lost interest, or I should say I was very demotivated/disheartened, because of the stay issue. I know it is not an easy thing to fix, I know it will take time, but the biggest thing is I could do all sorts of stuff, and go back in the ring, a few months from now, and have it happen again. 

Cindy Orr


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

If it is a family pet it should listen to family members, of course. It would be confusing to have to people giving conflicting commands to the dog, if it is a trainer that you see all the time and handles the dog all the time, and the dog respects him/her, that can be confusing too....

I am the only one who really "commands" the dog. If in a down, she will ignore my gf and her kids..my commands always supercede theirs, but this is not a real "family" dog....she likes what they do for her, but does not have a strong bond with them. its really hard to say, some dogs listen better than others, and seem to get it...easier...

no one here knows all your earlier work. so its hard to give advice. we don't know you or your dog, 

all this stuff is not your real problem though...your problem is her leaving the position in a controlled setting, with YOU commanding her. work on that, I'd say don't let a person who also commands the dog to "walk" her out of the down..use a stranger to the dog...or just concentrate on reinforcing the down when YOU leave...I still say ecollar could help you out, if used right.

A funny thing happened at the park today I went out and worked on the down...
I had dog in a long down, about 3 minutes or so, I was about 50 yards away, hiding behind a fence, the dog of course was staring at the point at which i went behind the fence, waiting for me...I was about 20 yards over to the right of that point. 

A track team or something started doing drills about 50 yards from the dog in the middle of the down. she held it nicely...until the coach blew his damn whistle. then the dog came flying over, came around the fence and went into the finish...I wasn't sure whether to be happy or pissed, so I was just happy... whistle recalls are not practical in every situation obviously...


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Cindy Orr said:


> Back to the having somene walk up to him with a let's go doggy or some such thing...is it fair, if it is a trainer that has handled him before, and he "respects" if you will???? Is it fair to have a family member do that? Don't I want him listening to family members (even if I am the one to tell him stay?)?? first and foremost he is our family dog...Say he is in a sit stay, and I tell my son to go over and tell him down, and he downs, (I have done this, and corrected him for it)...is that really fair??? Does that not lead to confusion for the dog? When we did this, I did repeat it till he stayed then praised the heck out of him.


For me, that is fair game. BUT I train dogs to only respond to one person, and ignoring other people trying to pet, love, hug, kiss, pet etc is standard. (I train service dogs.) Then again, in WI, telling a service dog what to do without having the handler's permission is a felony! Not something we have to deal with much, but try to prepare the dogs for it just in case.

You need to decide what it is going to be and stick with it. Either the dog listens to commands from everyone, or only you. Choose one and stick with it. If you choose the dog listens to other people, STOP your trainer from failing your dog.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Cindy Orr said:


> Looking for suggestions on how to stop a stay issue. My dog has been Open A 8 times, we have two legs. We lost 4 legs due to stay issue. He *follows me out of the ring*. Our last trial was a disaster. He did not drop, went down on the sit (first time) and followed me out on the down. We have not shown since February, and obviously will not be....
> 
> We were at a training workshop this past weekend. He did a stay in the ring, while someone else was working with their dog. A sit stay. He did not budge while they were working. BUT< the main trainer walked up to him and said "let's go" and he got right up. He has been proofed for it, but falls for it every time. Every time!! I went back and corrected put him back. Same thing happened again. I did the same thing. 3rd time, he bolted (he and this trainer had a little scuffle earlier, and I think he is scared of her now).....bolted across the ring, over a jump, *right to me*. I thought he was going to stay, because he just leaned away from her, but then took off. I was there to grab him, and put him back. I then moved him into a down. He had a prong on, I yelled "no" and popped him with the prong, and put him back...


Cindy, I'm not a 100% positive trainer (nor am I a particularly good one), but to me, correcting a dog for coming TO YOU of its own volition in a crowded ring is a bad idea. In fact, I think you should thank your dog for coming to you instead of bolting out of the ring! Now, if the dog bolts out of the ring to go chase other dogs or whatever, that's probably fine to use correction, but it seems like it could lead to a ton of dog/handler conflict and problems with the recall later. Any time a dog comes to you of its own volition, it's not ideal if you want the down stay, but it's a whole lot better than bolting. If the dog starts to follow you out, you simply need to build up the three Ds: distance, duration, and distraction. Do not work on any more than one thing at a time as it's not fair to the dog. I'd start with duration and have the dog work on the required time before working on distance from you. Then when you are training above and beyond the level of distance and duration required, then you can add in distraction. 

So to start from scratch, have the dog down and stay. Build up duration from 1 second to 3 to 5, 10, etc until you get to say 5 minutes with the dog right next to you, with a mark (if you're using marker/clicker training) for each bit as you build duration. Next build distance by starting again from scratch. Start right next to the dog, mark, treat, step away six inches. Return slowly and calmly to the dog, mark, treat, calming praise. Step away 12 inches. Return slowly and calmly, mark, treat, etc. Work up until you're past where you need to be. If you need to start being out of sight, simply step on the other side of a wall in another room and build up duration that way. Then and only then add distraction. 

If the dog breaks, just give a no reward marker, grab the dog and put it back in its spot. No harsh correction, just replace him. Again to me, correcting a dog for *coming to you* may create conflict later on with the recall. I will respectfully disagree with Anne on throwing the reward to the dog for two reasons. One, because my aim sucks and I could see the dog jumping to get the treat that was poorly thrown. :wink: Two, a down stay should be a mentally calm activity to the dog whereas something like a recall should be mentally exciting. I like me being right next to the dog giving the reward calmly in my hand while the dog is on the ground.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Cindy, we just had a discussion that covered this very thing. Obedience ring and treats. You said the dog will keep the down stay with treats. The problem is you can't give treats in and obedience ring. I am not a trainer, but have seen this type of problem before since with holding the treats is used as a correction it causes a lot of confusion for the dog when suddenly the dog has completed so many exercises correctly and received nothing in return only when in the ring.


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## Anna Kasho (Jan 16, 2008)

For some dogs the e-collar works great - it lets them know exactly when they broke the exercise, and exactly when they go back to doing it correctly. I have one who just wouldn't do well with verbal or leash corrections, once I added the e-collar (low low continuous) things sudenly became very clear to him, and stress level went down. That bit of negative feedback is just what he needed for everything to make sense. We had the same deal with breaking positions - now he knows what he is supposed to do, and he is much happier.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Cindy, I'm not a 100% positive trainer (nor am I a particularly good one), but to me, correcting a dog for coming TO YOU of its own volition in a crowded ring is a bad idea. In fact, I think you should thank your dog for coming to you instead of bolting out of the ring! Now, if the dog bolts out of the ring to go chase other dogs or whatever, that's probably fine to use correction, but it seems like it could lead to a ton of dog/handler conflict and problems with the recall later. Any time a dog comes to you of its own volition, it's not ideal if you want the down stay, but it's a whole lot better than bolting. If the dog starts to follow you out, you simply need to build up the three Ds: distance, duration, and distraction. Do not work on any more than one thing at a time as it's not fair to the dog. I'd start with duration and have the dog work on the required time before working on distance from you. Then when you are training above and beyond the level of distance and duration required, then you can add in distraction.
> 
> So to start from scratch, have the dog down and stay. Build up duration from 1 second to 3 to 5, 10, etc until you get to say 5 minutes with the dog right next to you, with a mark (if you're using marker/clicker training) for each bit as you build duration. Next build distance by starting again from scratch. Start right next to the dog, mark, treat, step away six inches. Return slowly and calmly to the dog, mark, treat, calming praise. Step away 12 inches. Return slowly and calmly, mark, treat, etc. Work up until you're past where you need to be. If you need to start being out of sight, simply step on the other side of a wall in another room and build up duration that way. Then and only then add distraction.
> 
> If the dog breaks, just give a no reward marker, grab the dog and put it back in its spot. No harsh correction, just replace him. Again to me, correcting a dog for *coming to you* may create conflict later on with the recall. I will respectfully disagree with Anne on throwing the reward to the dog for two reasons. One, because my aim sucks and I could see the dog jumping to get the treat that was poorly thrown. :wink: Two, a down stay should be a mentally calm activity to the dog whereas something like a recall should be mentally exciting. I like me being right next to the dog giving the reward calmly in my hand while the dog is on the ground.


good advice if you want to do it 100% positive....if........


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Anna Kasho said:


> For some dogs the e-collar works great - it lets them know exactly when they broke the exercise, and exactly when they go back to doing it correctly. I have one who just wouldn't do well with verbal or leash corrections, once I added the e-collar (low low continuous) things sudenly became very clear to him, and stress level went down. That bit of negative feedback is just what he needed for everything to make sense. We had the same deal with breaking positions - now he knows what he is supposed to do, and he is much happier.


good advice...i use vibrate for positive marker....low level negative. sometimes even higher levels, I have never had any issues with the recall work in regards to the conflict point. but I got a pretty tough dog LOL


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

Do you always train at the same location?

I didn't read all of the replys, maybe someone mentioned this allready.

I'd start over, in a unknown field with knowone else around, no stress or distractions. I'd also use an e-collar. You timing has to be percise.
I'd also only attempt one command (maybe even using a different command/lauguage if your rules permit) until it's solid. I'd also start out with small distances. Walk 5 feet, dog still in down, ya, throw a party. I'd also skip the returning to the dog for awhile. Give the down, walk 5 feet look to see if he's still in a down, then use your release command, and jump for joy. Extend distance slowly.
When the above is solid (after several sessions), move to the next excersise, same as above.

When you are sure he understands the commands, then add some distractions at a distance and increase slowly.

Finally after all exercises are good. Move back to your normal field, again only one of the exersizes per training session and start out at 5 feet same as above, until solid, then move onto the next.

It sounds like to me the dog is confused, which produces stress. He follows you to releave that stress, which he get's corrected for, which adds stress. I think you need to remove the confusion and stress.

Eddie


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Cindy, re-reading your first post, been in the ring 8 times and lost 4 legs due to the stay. That is 50% right there. This tells me the dog doesn't really need correction because it isn't at a level it would be considered actually trained for competition. My advice would be to start at the begining on the sit and down stay and train the dog. If you need some pointers call Dan at Elite Dog Training. On a bet he trained and English pointer for comp obedience and I believe it is still the high pointing EP. His number is 410-770-9789.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> I will respectfully disagree with Anne on throwing the reward to the dog for two reasons. One, because my aim sucks and I could see the dog jumping to get the treat that was poorly thrown. :wink: Two, a down stay should be a mentally calm activity to the dog whereas something like a recall should be mentally exciting. I like me being right next to the dog giving the reward calmly in my hand while the dog is on the ground.


Yup - I don't like the down to be mentally calm. I like to train stays in drive. Yes, sometimes I have a problem with a dog that goes high into drive on a down stay - but that's OK with me. I just leave it in a down for 1/2 hour or so until it is a little less exciting. 

It depends on what you are training for and what you want it to look like. I'm not training for trialing, but for a willing, cheerful appearance. But maybe I will get around to doing some competition OB with him someday. ?? I might change my tune then.


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## Anne Pridemore (Mar 20, 2010)

Sit stay - the longest I will leave a dog in this command is 20 min. Any more seems cruel to me. The correction for breaking stay comes by the hand of god. I don't do sport, I train for real life. If my dog in real life broke a stay he could be hit by a car or other life ending tragedies. I never feel bad about a hard correction for breaking stay, I would rather the dog stay through compulsion than be dead because of my squeamishness.

Following other handlers off a stay - NO. I do not allow my dogs to break stay, EVER. If I say stay it means stay. People may come and pet them, walk up and give them treats (that I approve of course), talk to them- whatever. But for NO reason should MY dog follow another handler out of his stay. My training group even proofs our dogs on this by trying to lead or coax each others' dogs out of stays.

Now as I said I don't compete in sport, I look at all training issues from a real world view. In the real world walking off with a stranger or breaking stay can get a dog killed. I love my dogs too much to put them in that kind of risk.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Anne Pridemore said:


> Sit stay - the longest I will leave a dog in this command is 20 min. Any more seems cruel to me. The correction for breaking stay comes by the hand of god. I don't do sport, I train for real life. If my dog in real life broke a stay he could be hit by a car or other life ending tragedies. I never feel bad about a hard correction for breaking stay, I would rather the dog stay through compulsion than be dead because of my squeamishness.
> 
> Following other handlers off a stay - NO. I do not allow my dogs to break stay, EVER. If I say stay it means stay. People may come and pet them, walk up and give them treats (that I approve of course), talk to them- whatever. But for NO reason should MY dog follow another handler out of his stay. My training group even proofs our dogs on this by trying to lead or coax each others' dogs out of stays.
> 
> Now as I said I don't compete in sport, I look at all training issues from a real world view. In the real world walking off with a stranger or breaking stay can get a dog killed. I love my dogs too much to put them in that kind of risk.


Awesome description Anne. I agree with your "real world view."

I disagree on a long stay being "cruel." Longest stay I've had a dog in was 4 hours during a chemistry lab. Fun training environment. Tons of noise, bustle, me leaving the room and/or working out of sight. And d*mn good motivation for me to make sure that the stay was rock solid with hazardous chemicals around! _*That's my real world.*_ My dog could never pass an OB trial, but I can put him in a stay in a crowded shopping mall and leave. He will be there when I come back -- with a crowd around him, LOL.


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## Anne Pridemore (Mar 20, 2010)

Anne Vaini said:


> I disagree on a long stay being "cruel."


I don't think a long stay is cruel, just a long sit stay. It stresses the joints to much (IMO) to be in a sit stay for a long time. If I want a long stay I will always leave the dog in a down stay. Currently my star pupil is up to 30 min down stay with me out of sight, and with me in sight however long the extended Return of the King was. :lol:


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

The down for my dogs is chill time. 
I also see nothing benifcial with someone else rewarding the dog. You should return "RANDOMLY" and reward with a treat or scratch his ear. Alternate the ear scratch and the treat and wean the treat till your just giving the ear scratch. on the head. 
You need to do a lot of put throughs/mock trials/matches, whatever you cal them there. The difference between a training scenario and a real trial are night and day. The dog needs to do both.
Again, the method isn't as important as consistency. You can't treat in a real trial anymore then you can correct.
BOTH methods can create a "ring wise" dog. It learns you can't treat/correct if you don't do either correctly. 
When my dog Thunder got the first leg to his CDX he never had a correction and during the long down the Terv next to him got up and layed down in front of him with it's tail wagging in Thunder's face. That dog fllunked of course. Thunder took first place out of 12 dogs in that class.
I would also follow up on Mathews question again. How often do you call the dog out of a down stay?


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Anne Vaini said:


> Yup - I don't like the down to be mentally calm. I like to train stays in drive. Yes, sometimes I have a problem with a dog that goes high into drive on a down stay - but that's OK with me. I just leave it in a down for 1/2 hour or so until it is a little less exciting.
> 
> It depends on what you are training for and what you want it to look like. I'm not training for trialing, but for a willing, cheerful appearance. But maybe I will get around to doing some competition OB with him someday. ?? I might change my tune then.


I train my dogs for a calm down stay because the dogs I train in my therapy dog group class have to pass the 3 minute separation for the CGC and many of them can't handle it unless they are in a calm down stay cause they'll whine or otherwise vocalize too much. Giving them a mental job to do for the 3 minutes helps a TON. I love teaching the down itself in drive (helps for the in motion exercises in protection sport obedience as well as a good down in herding for the stop cue), but the stay itself is calm. Fawkes and my old dog Zoso both like to try to army crawl, so it's just easiest if they're mentally calm and not in drive.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Joby Becker said:


> good advice if you want to do it 100% positive....if........


Like I said, if the dog just bolted out of the ring to go mess with other dogs or otherwise be distracted, I would certainly entertain a physical correction for this (or correct myself thinking that my dog was up to the PhD challenge level of a busy obedience ring but may only be at the middle school level). But if the dog is coming up to the handler, without seeing video, that makes me agree with Eddie that the the dog is confused and stressed and is coming to the handler for clarification because they don't quite get it. I don't think physical correction is going to help this. No reward marker, replacing the dog, and reinforcing/rewarding what you actually want while taking the level of distraction, duration, and distance down again and building it back up over repetition is going to likely be more clear in the dog's head.


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## jack van strien (Apr 9, 2009)

I used to hammer a piece of steel with and ring on top into the ground and ran a very thin long line through it,as soon as the dog wants to break you can correct and it is *impossible *for the dog to leave.
Anyone can hold the string ,i think you have to teach your dog *he can not leave* instead of giving him the oppertunity to leave.Imo you will have to start from scratch,a big part of it by now can also be your mindset when you are in the ring and leave your dog,he feels you are nervous.
When he is tied up like this you can walk away from him smiling because you also know he can not break the downstay.
Will he stay at home?


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

What Jack says is what we did and do. Sometimes when you're walking away from the dog you might be giving him signals as you're wondering "will he, won't he". Jack's method, done from the beginning is one of the best methods because the dog is not left in a grey zone. But, has to be done slowly for it to succeed.

What Anne Pridemore said is also correct. One of my dogs broke the down stay during training after 3 years of not doing so and came towards me. I won't tell you what I did but I made it unpleasant for him to come to me. I don't believe in all this slush about if he breaks it voluntarily and comes to you. This will certainly never cure it. The dog came to me when I called him even after this incident. It's hard to see into dogs' heads sometimes and so just giving them clear signals "no I don't want that" or yes that's how I want it" has to suffice.

Maybe go back to the beginning, no treats, just 100% down stay, secured as above and introduce the person who wants to heel him away. Start off with strange, maybe and move on to known persons. In any case, no-one should be able to walk off with your dog unless you tell him it is ok to go with them. I even had to tell my Landseer he had to go wih OH for a walk if I couldn't :lol: Ben didn't want to leave me and Toni didn't want the exercise - no mean feat!


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## Cindy Orr (Jul 8, 2009)

Gilllian, do you have a Landseer now? I had a Landseer, actually his 3 year death anniversary is in a few days. I also had a black Newfoundland at the same time, she died 7 days after the Landseer.

I currently have a black Newfoundland. He is 3. Training him has been a challenge, but he is getting there. Sweet dog. 

I love Newfies! Don't think I'll ever be without one. 

Cindy Orr


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## Mary Buck (Apr 7, 2010)

Any proofing you do should be to build up the dog's confidence and not undermine it. Stays are a confidence issue...you seem to have done a fine job of teaching your dog he can't win or be right.

Like everyone said...start over...be it with cookies or ecollar. Be fair. Stop letting other people **** with him on the stays..its between you and him. 

For dogs that have a big confidence issue you can sometimes start over and put them on a platform (table or rug..whatever) Something that helps anchor them. 

Good luck....stays screw up alot of UDX or OTCH plans. 

Whatever you are doing now..its sure not working...best training advice I ever got was to put away the shovel and stop digging the same hole.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Mary Buck said:


> Whatever you are doing now..its sure not working...best training advice I ever got was to put away the shovel and stop digging the same hole.


I love it.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Cindy,

I only had one Landseer and he was one helluva dog but not a Schutzhund. He'd have nabbed anyone who tried to threaten me but he passed working trials 1 and failed working trials 2 for not going after the helper but guarding me. He passed his guarding an article discipline with 100%

A lot of these Landseers and Newfoundlands as well as Molossers have not been bred to chase but to guard making them totally unsuitable for Schutzhund but admirable for guarding.

We had a Fila and it is known that the Fila was used in Brazil to stop the slaves from escaping so he had a natural tendency to stop the slave but not to bite him hard. An injured slave is of no use.

I wouldn't have a Landseer again because I have no fatih in the Clubs in Europe or England. They just want to produce show dogs, unfortunately but, apart from Schutzhund, it is a great dog to train with, SAR, Tracking, etc. and, not to forget the Water Trials which we have a number of in Switzerland.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

I was out training today and thinking on this.

Why not isolate the "stay" part of the command from the position. Since the dog has learned to break the position...

So start by training a stand stay. You've trained the stand for examination. So train the stand stay to the intensity/duration/distraction that you need the other stays to be at for trial. This eliminates all of your baggage and problems you have now.

Once you get clarity, success and build up confidence in your dog, THEN try it in a different position (sit, down) and see what you get.

Sometimes you have to step backwards a few times to be able to walk forwards.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Something I forgot to mention that is very basic to training, in particular any stay commands.
To many try and add distance and time to fast and/or at the same time.
When you add time, shorten the distance. When you add distance, shorten the time. 
By putting the dog on a down and then you walking out of the ring you've taught the dog it can leave when it feels like it. Your correction may be comming way to late for the dog to even know what it's being corrected for. That creates HUGE confusion in the dog.


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## Cindy Orr (Jul 8, 2009)

Thanks guys, great ideas! I wil try some of that, once my dog recovers....the two dogs had a huge fight yesterday, I guess over a bone So, the dog in question, the Berner, his ears got messed up by the Newfs. He is now missing a tip, and the other ear has a rip, and a piece missing as well. I am quite upset. He had to be put under to fix them, and should be home tomorrow. I tried to bring him home this morning, and he kept shaking his head so much, within two minutes of being home, I was going to get the crate out of the car, he freed all the bandages, and popped the stitches. More bloodshed. *sigh*our house is on the market and we have an open house tomorrow! 

Anyways....training will resume once his ears are better, though this will sound awful, I had to put him on stay yesterday at the vets, to keep him from splattering/dripping more blood around. Looked liek a crime scene. 

Yes, I agree, he needs to be shown that he is right, and not be set up to fail so much.

So, I would have laughted at the thought of a Newf doing Schutzhund, because my Newf has such a soft mouth, but evidently no bit inhibition in a fight. He had not a scratch on him. 

They have never fought before. HOpefully they never will again, they are both neutered.

Cindy Orr


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Cindy Orr said:


> HOpefully they never will again ...



That's your responsibility. No "hopefully" about it. Not to jump on you, but "hopefully" isn't the POV you want to have about this. JMO, of course.


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## Cindy Orr (Jul 8, 2009)

Yes, poor maintenance on my part, and an important lesson to learn: even if both dogs are known as "gentle giants" they are still DOGS. I do keep lots of rules in the house, because we also have 3 children. I should have been smarter about having one valuable giant dog bone laying around. So, no more unsupervised dog bones. 

The Newfoundland in particular is the calmest sweetest dog you would ever meet. Shocking that he did that to the other dogs ears. In such an incredibly short time frame. He has such a soft mouth. 

Cindy Orr


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Ear blood spray on the walls is the worst! 50-50 vinegar and water solution will clean it off easy.  

I am surprised your vet put stitches in a dog's ear. I had a pit bull puppy that tore her ear. I was UPSET because I did not want a pit that looked like it had a fight scar! My vet would not do anything about it. Told me there wasn't enough blood supply to the ears to support healing. ??


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## Tamara McIntosh (Jul 14, 2009)

jack van strien said:


> I used to hammer a piece of steel with and ring on top into the ground and ran a very thin long line through it,as soon as the dog wants to break you can correct and it is *impossible *for the dog to leave.
> Anyone can hold the string ,i think you have to teach your dog *he can not leave* instead of giving him the oppertunity to leave.Imo you will have to start from scratch,a big part of it by now can also be your mindset when you are in the ring and leave your dog,he feels you are nervous.
> When he is tied up like this you can walk away from him smiling because you also know he can not break the downstay.


Hi Cindy,

I completely concur with Jack. 

I had a stay issue with my dog that started out innocently enough.... He was young and in a stay with a very rowdy intact male boxer next to him, with a mental midget handler.. whom decided to go wrestle with the dog during the stay. My dog was looking rather interested, so I called him back to me. BIG MISTAKE!!! That one instance built a behaviour in him, that if he got the least bit unhappy with being down he would run right back to me.

What followed was a TON of corrections with a pinch and NONE of it worked, it made it much worse! The more he got corrected the more determined he became to get back to me (aparently a safe zone no matter what I did).

I finally did what Jack recommends, except that he was tied to things... trees, benches, fences, etc. We would take him to the park with us and my son, and just tie him up and leave him. Just on a flat leather collar and a 6 foot around whatever was close. If he got up, I would give a verbal correction and he'd lay down again.

From there I would push a tie out stake into the ground and attach him on a short line to it. And then do yard work or gardening, or train my other dogs.

No emotion, no anger, usually no talking to him either. He learnt patience and self control. Kids can scoot by him on skateboards or rollerblades or bikes and he is fine. Kids screamin' and running around and he is fine.

When I took him off the line, I started back slowly. Lots of stays with me there but walking around, talking to people, walking away and then back again, and worked him back up again. If he moved/got up, I would have people very calmly and quietly and gently put him back into position.

I don't think a stay should be stressful and I think they should be restful and not a place where the dog is worried about correction. Yes they have to stay but a relaxed dog will stay a whole lot more solid and longer than a dog looking around to see whom is gonna beat his ass next.

Tamara McIntosh


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