# NASAR rubble



## Craig Snyder (May 7, 2012)

I'm wondering if anyone here has done the NASAR rubble test with a refind dog per the type III qualifications?

Some of the language in the standard isn't totally clear to me as to how a refind dog is evaluated on rubble.

Craig


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## Craig Snyder (May 7, 2012)

Ok, maybe since I'm new here I should ask this of the SAR folks here.

Are there any NASAR handlers or evaluators frequenting this forum? 

If not, what standards are most of the people here working with? FEMA? IRO? Country specific standards? 

Craig


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

This is different from NASCAR rubble, right?


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## Craig Snyder (May 7, 2012)

Thomas Barriano said:


> This is different from NASCAR rubble, right?


Yes. It is. 

Craig


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

I was done with NASAR when they misappropriated the K9 funds and grandfathered in evaluators who never actually certified in the disciplines they tested.

We still test for the various non dog certifications but thats it.

NAPWDA for most of our dog testing. We also do additional internal testing for longer trails, more complex area searches etc.

Not sure why anyone would work a recall refind dog on a rubble pile. Definitely for wilderness. But you were not looking for an opinion on that and I work a cadaver dog anyway. Our wilderness dogs are recall refind.

A couple of the SAR folks are at the cadaver seminar going on at the WCU FOREST right now. I did not answer before because our team is a Wilderness only team and does not do disaster.


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

You could try Konnie Hein, she sometimes posts here. However, she is not with the NASAR organization, so may not be familiar with the standard you speak of. She is a member of her state team and a FEMA team I think? I think she may be a FEMA evaluator as well.

I don't do disaster search, so can't help you.


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## Craig Snyder (May 7, 2012)

Nancy Jocoy said:


> I was done with NASAR when they misappropriated the K9 funds and grandfathered in evaluators who never actually certified in the disciplines they tested.
> 
> We still test for the various non dog certifications but thats it.
> 
> ...


Well, I'm still learning this stuff but as I understand the federal NIMS typing they are recognizing 4 levels of disaster dogs. Type I is what I think most of us consider the FEMA dogs working on the task forces. They work heavy rubble, multi-story collapses. They must be bark alert dogs and are approved for national and international deployment.
Type II dogs are basically the same but are for light industrial rubble, 1-2 story, and they must be bark alert dogs. Also approved for national and international deployment.
Type III can be bark alert or refind dogs. They are for non-industrial, light construction or wood frame. They are required to have a wilderness certification on 40 acres or more, (I.e. NASAR wilderness type III qualifies). They also do not have to complete the directional testing required of type I and II levels. They can be nationally or internationally deployed.
Type IV dogs have very little obedience and agility testing required. Are not deployable at all except for local response.

I believe the idea is that at any given disaster their are varying levels of damage. Local unit would be first responding. Type I, II, and III would be arriving later. I and II's being given tasks in the heavier, denser, construction. Type III's would be assigned areas with lighter construction such as residential areas, trailer parks, shanty towns, etc. 

So maybe for rural towns hit by tornados in the US Midwest, type III dogs might make the most sense since many subjects are tossed and deposited outside of their homes. I believe a few years ago one baby was found in a tree.

Even in a tsunami like Japan, much of the damage was in rural areas and residential areas. Much of the debris field was only a few feet high. Not much higher then deadfall in some logging areas I've been in.

In NO after Katrina most of the houses were intact, not collapsed. Many of the flood victims were outside as well, not necessarily trapped in debris. Wilderness air scent dogs can be just as effective in those types of things. We routinely train our wilderness dogs to do building searches since we do have a very urban area.

So a task force being dispatched might be better served by having a variety of I,II and III k9 teams. Not just all FEMA heavy rubble teams.

But, I'm still just learning. Hence why I'm asking questions.

Craig


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## julie allen (Dec 24, 2010)

I have hrd dogs, certified through USAR by FEMA standards. I'm not technically on TN task force 1, since FEMA doesn't deploy cadaver dogs yet. Working on a live find dog.

Anyway, the only reason I can see keeping them from having all the levels of dogs mentioned, is why bother? If you have a dog capable of type 1 certification, he can also work in other scenarios listed. 

Our certification was on heavy rubble, bark alert, dog doesnt leave source. We also went through wilderness, and water hrd detection.

The live find dogs I train with do specialize in rubble, but also work small buildings, rooms, etc. The wilderness dogs have different training.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

The NIMs ESF9 "buckets" were established not that far after 911 and in the same rush of funding and prepardeness that brought CERT teams. Most cerfication agencies quickly related their testing standards to the NIMs buckets so in that way it standardized things. 

NIMs also rolled out a draft standard on curriculm which, as best I can tell, has gone nowhere since it came out in 2006. The goal of THAT was to tell which training folks had to do various seach and rescue support functions.

The real intent was to be able to deploy many teams across state lines in incidents like Katrina. Both the WTC and Katrina saw self-deployments and massive influxes of K9 groups completely unprepared for what they were doing.

Since then, many states have developed SUSAR teams that specifically train for local disaster and usually do wilderness on the side. That is a major focus of their training. They have their own testing and standards. 

To me, unless you are routinely training on rubble and under disaster conditions, certification under any standard would not mean so much, particularly with NASAR (did they ever put an expiration date on their certifications like everyone else?). 

And if you were not FEMA or SUSAR, when THEY arrive on scene you will be asked to leave or, do non disaster work. We were all told that point blank at a joint training we attended with our local CERT (TEEX-Wide Area Search)--even our Nationally Certified Cadaver dogs who test on rubble through NAPWDA cannot do recovery work if FEMA has the site.

In a tornado or local flood you may be a first responder but I doubt any certificate is going to be part of the decision process for the local emergency folks under those conditions. Obviously if we are talking ropes or swiftwater no go. All our agencies request documentation on the reqisite IS courses though. May be different in your locale?

JMO.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

I don't believe NIMS says anything about obedience requirements relative to their levels. Where is this info (maybe it is something new? )

ADDED: organizations like NAPWDA and IPWDA have added obedience testing to the routine for all offlead dogs based on issues evaluators found with "volunteer" dogs being out of control.

They are not looking for precision competition obedience but the NAPWDA test is pretty comprehensive. You don't pass obedience, you don't test. 

[trying to push towards a cert with my puppy in September but won't feel like a failure if he does not pass it (HRD) at 14 months old-I mainly want to get him to the seminar to see what we need to work up for the January test since several dogs in our state need to re-certify then.]


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## Jennifer Michelson (Sep 20, 2006)

NASAR is not popular in my neck of the woods. I am in NJ and on the SUSAR team (equivalent to FEMA, but state sponsored). SUSAR has type II and type I dogs. Type I is the advanced level. Both levels are deployable in SUSAR. I believe only type I dogs are deployable in FEMA. 

What agency would deploy dogs certified under NASAR or IPWDA for disaster?


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## Craig Snyder (May 7, 2012)

Well, as I understand it, it's not necessarily the agency you certify under. NIMS is simply a designation for typing of resources. So IF they actually inventory and track state resources, they should be classified according to NIMS. It doesn't matter if it is NASAR, a state agency, IRO, etc... What matters is that the particular agency is recognized that their standards meet or exceed the requirements of the NIMS type. This is no different than the fire side where a PRO board Firefighter 1 or FF2 is expected to meet certain requirements according to NIMS. But the certification is done by numerous state, national and local fire schools.

To the best of my knowledge, only FEMA evaluates type I disaster dogs and FEMA task teams only use type I.

NASAR specifically states their testing standards meet the NIMS requirements for type II and III dogs. They do not test type I. 

As far as why would anyone use anything but a type I dog the problem is that their are not many type I dogs available and most are assigned to Task teams. The FEMA teams take time to deploy. SUSAR teams are quicker but not all states have them. I don't think PA has more than the eight or so dogs assigned to FEMA PA-1. I understand that team is struggling for resources. 

Not all areas have access to good, safe rubble piles to work on. Makeshift piles, demolition sites, etc... are the best they can get for training. Safe, multistory rubble piles needed for training type I dogs are not around everywhere.

Philly would probably be more dependent on the Jersey SUSAR and FEMA teams if they had a major downtown incident since PA's dog are mostly centered around Harrisburg where PA-1 deploys from. Pittsburgh is even farther away from Harrisburg.

Anyway, thanks for the comments. O

Craig


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## Craig Snyder (May 7, 2012)

As a reference, here are the NASAR standards.

I'm not advocating these standard over any other. I'm just trying to understand them and how and where they are used.

http://www.nasar.org/files/canine/CCP_2010_revised_6.30.11.pdf

The disaster dog requirements start on page 33.

Craig


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

I imagine most are familiar with NASAR standards. I got my SAR Tech II in 2000. Have taken ADSAR, MLPI, and guess I could take SAR Tech I, now that am a DOT First Responder.......but it would just be another peice of paper that really doesn't mean too much.

Maybe the K9 Section can regain the lost confidence of the SAR community but most of the founding members walked out and formed NSDA after the mess. And NSDA has its own bickering issues, but at least they put on training seminars........

LOL, just looked at the SAR I requirements...still have to have a quarter for a phone call ......At least you don't have to have a condom for an improvised water bottle anymore.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

I think, for you, the bottom line is if your team uses NASAR and local agencies respect it then that is what you test to. I would simply contact an evaluator in that discipline with your questions.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Listen, getting ready to head out for a day of training........NOT saying the NASAR certifications are meaningless; they hold no meaning to the folks who deploy us so they are meaningless for us if we have the requisite skills. 

I think the tests and BOK are well written.


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## Jennifer Michelson (Sep 20, 2006)

Craig--my question was really: if you are certified with a disaster certification (from an non government organization), who is going to deploy you in a disaster? I guess I am asking what is the value of the certification? I think you are paying to take the test with NASAR? Is your team affiliated with an organization that responds to disaster scenes (that would not deploy a wilderness dog to that scene)? 

I have no idea how that would work.

FEMA is not the only agency to certify Type I dogs. Susar does as well. The test is the same and, for SUSAR, we can be evaluated by fema or susar evaluators. The test is the same. A type II dog in the susar system is the same as a dog who has passed its FSA in the fema system. I dont know if a fema/susar designated type 1 dog is the same as a NIMS type 1 dog.


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## Jim Delbridge (Jan 27, 2010)

The crux of it is what does the agencies in your area require for you to be considered a viable source. For collapsed structure, many states are now looking to their USAR teams which often are made up of metro fire fighters and/or policemen with dogs often donated to them. SUSAR teams often do not train for situations like tornadoes nor leave the comfort zone of their metro areas, so a disaster out in the rural area will probably be under your state emergency management agency. Find out who they are in your area/states and ask them what certfications they require of you and your dog. In Oklahoma, most first responders are expected to get a SAR Tech II on themselves, but after June 1st, new NASAR dog certs will not be respected. There are multiple reasons for this decision and it wasn't mine to make so I won't go into the whys. One of those making the decision used to be a NASAR BOD member....

Jim Delbridge


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## Craig Snyder (May 7, 2012)

As i understand it SUSAR in Pa is the PA-1 task force team and they only deploy Type I and type II dogs that are FEMA evaluated. PA-1 is broken up into 9 regional areas with SE PA covered by Company 2. What I haven't found out is what the regional companies are actually comprised of.

For any locallized emergency (flood, tornado, etc..) it is strictly up to all the indiivdual local LE and Fire departments what they want to have deployed. My understanding is they can ask for a SUSAR response that would be made up of elements of PA-1. The issue is at what stage do they ask for this assistance and who/how do they ask? It is supposed to go through the local EOC's to the state EOC's as I understand it.

Since Pa has well over 2000 fire companies and closse to the same number of LE's, I don't see any consistency. So on a localized tornado touch down, (which in PA is unsual to start with and while it does happen, the damage is nothing compared to the midwest monsters), with maybe less than half-dozen buildings involved, I doubt you'll see a state response. Flooding can be more of an issue and type III dogs and general airscent dogs can be of value in those.

It's mostly a matter of trying to educate the departments that there are K9 resources out there to help them. But they have no clue what certs are required, if any, who has good ones, who doesn't. What teams to call in, etc.. It's kind of a wild west thing still.

There is no state agency that certifies USAR K9's other than via PA-1 to the best of my knowledge. With only 8 dogs and it looks like 6 handlers as of Oct 2011 to cover the state that seems a tad light to me for a state the size of PA. (BTW: please don't think I'm slighting these folks, the dogs and handlers are dedicated and simply amazing).

It seems that some type III dogs handled by local wilderness teams could help if there was a sanctioning authority in PA for them. Let the FEMA/SUSAR teams handle the heavy stuff. But it seems like we are overlooking some very good local resources.

My thoughts to doing type III NASAR is primarily
1) a personal challenge for me and my K9 partner. 
2) to learn more personally
3) to maybe try to influence the process in PA and find a way to organize additional K9 resources for USAR under some type of governing body.

I do this because I love training. And while it would be nice to be able use my K9 somewhere and somehow, that's not why I do it. As in firefighting, I never wish anything bad on people. But on the other hand one of the worse things is to be able to help but you have to stand by and watch because you don't have the right person say you can. 

Also, even if I can't personally commit to a FEMA task team, but I want to train and learn more about USAR, just exactly what other cert or standard should I work towards? Aren't the NIMS ones I should use as a guide? Regardless of how certifies them.

With no offense at all to the Jersey folks here, it appears you are certifying to your own state standards. PA only utilizes FEMA standards. Does NJ use FEMA evaluators or state evaluators? Are the dogs typed according to NIMS? If I tell my fire chief to request a NJ state SUSAR K9 how do I know that is equiv. to a PA-1 type I or type II K9? The last FEMA roster I saw showed no NJ FEMA K9's.

I don't believe the PA SAR council has requirements or standards that address USAR. Primarily just wilderness and tracking. USAR is considered just PA-1.

So while I understand everyone saying it's what's your local authorities recognize, I think there is a big gap in PA. We have PA-1 and their 8 dogss for anything REALLY big, but at for the medium to small size reponses, there is little to no oversight on local resources and SAR teams for them.

Craig


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## Craig Snyder (May 7, 2012)

Nancy Jocoy said:


> To me, unless you are routinely training on rubble and under disaster conditions, certification under any standard would not mean so much, particularly with NASAR (did they ever put an expiration date on their certifications like everyone else?).


The standards I have read for NASAR specify two years.

Craig Snyder


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## Craig Snyder (May 7, 2012)

Nancy Jocoy said:


> I don't believe NIMS says anything about obedience requirements relative to their levels. Where is this info (maybe it is something new? )
> 
> ADDED: organizations like NAPWDA and IPWDA have added obedience testing to the routine for all offlead dogs based on issues evaluators found with "volunteer" dogs being out of control.
> 
> They are not looking for precision competition obedience but the NAPWDA test is pretty comprehensive. You don't pass obedience, you don't test.


NASAR also has similar obedience testing in their standards.

Craig


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Craig Snyder said:


> So while I understand everyone saying it's what's your local authorities recognize, I think there is a big gap in PA. We have PA-1 and their 8 dogss for anything REALLY big, but at for the medium to small size reponses, there is little to no oversight on local resources and SAR teams for them.
> 
> Craig


That is correct, and NIMS never intended to reach that far. When it first came out the goal was for interagency large scale responses across state lines, not the little local stuff. SWGDOG has probably done more to drive the standardization of certification standards for the various disciplines than has NIMS but most folks still drop their resources in the NIMS buckets. 

It is the same most places - some states have SAR councils and others don't even have that. Of course in our state there is no requirement for police K9's to be certified, let alone SAR dogs, nor is there any SAR council. 

But the teams work pretty well together to ensure that the goal of the mission is not lost and if we can't supply a needed resource on a call we will ask the Sherrif in charge to give us permission to call the right resource. Our team and those we call out require certifications and we won't touch a cadaver dog that is not certified through a police agency.

So we have been called in to calls in NC and GA and have brought in folks from both states on calls we get, all with knowledge of the responding agency.....

Fire and EMS are tangential to the effort here, where it is all under the Sherrif.

Honestly, you should know and train with your local resources for the smaller searches. Actually working with them is probably of more value than any piece of paper, even though the paper is necessary.


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## Jennifer Michelson (Sep 20, 2006)

I thought Pa was a FEMA team not a SUSAR team. There are FEMA (federal) teams and SUSAR (state urban sar) teams (sometimes both in the same state, I think). Susar was developed from fema and has the same exact tests for the dogs (except that susar has developed cadaver standards and will deploy cadaver dogs and fema does not). We test to SUSAR standards (which are the same as FEMA for k9s). We test the same way and can take a test anywhere a SUSAR k9 test is held. We (NJTF1)generally hold 1 test per year and other states send their teams to test. We have sent handlers to other states, and evaluators from NJTF1 have gone to other states to evaluate those TFs tests. I have tested under FEMA and SUSAR evaluators. We are equivalent because it was designed that way--so we can all play in the same sandbox.


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## Jennifer Michelson (Sep 20, 2006)

If Konnie stops by she is probably the best to explain. She has many more years than I do in the system and is on 2 teams--1 SUSAR and 1 FEMA, so understands the differences better than me.

Basically--I am on a wilderness team and the USAR team. I test to what they tell me to so I can deploy as needed.

For hrd especially, I am tempted to test through IPWDA or NAPWDA...but those certs wont get me anything more than the certs I get from my team....I only deploy through either team.


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## Jennifer Michelson (Sep 20, 2006)

I looked quickly at the NASAR type II & III test. It looks like a slightly modified FEMA/SUSAR type II test. 

I havent read the IPWDA disaster test, but was told they adopted the SUSAR/FEMA test as well.


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## Craig Snyder (May 7, 2012)

Jennifer Michelson said:


> I thought Pa was a FEMA team not a SUSAR team. There are FEMA (federal) teams and SUSAR (state urban sar) teams (sometimes both in the same state, I think).


 
To see how PA is divided up check this link: http://www.pa-tf1.com/regional.htm

From what I can see, there are 230 roster people making up the regional teams. I believe the admin/training/etc are coordinated, so all members meet both FEMA task force requirements and state requirements. No duplication basically. The members of the regional teams along with a few others not on the regional teams can than make up the 210 member FEMA team. So it looks like to me that the PA-TF1 can dispatch the various regional elements as needed to deal with state USAR needs. There is a graphic towards the bottom of the page outlining that here: http://www.pa-tf1.com/about.htm

I'll definitely look more into and try to find out what local regional teams are about.

Craig


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