# Need a prognosis



## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Need a prognosis. The vet told a puppy buyer that the pup had a birth defect. More specifically a hole in his heart. Because of this, then pup would be short lived and expensive. I told them to return the pup and they said no because they were attached to it. I told them six mo ago to get a 2nd opinon before spending big bucks for echocardiograms or whatever the tests were. Question is, is this something that cures itself with time like some heart murmurs on the young? The vet seemed to be saying it was a death sentence.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I knew a dog that lived for several years with the same condition. It died running around in the back yard with the other dogs, but the dog was almost 4. 

The people just figured to let him be a dog until he passed, and never treated him different. He got tired quick, but never seemed to mind.

Probably not what you are looking for, but it was one puppy, and there were other litters and the problem never showed up in any of them.

Odd that you would have it, I have wondered how many recessives were so odd and rare, that the occurance would still show up. Got me thinking.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

How could they tell the heart had a hole in it without tests of some kind ??


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## Julie Ann Alvarez (Aug 4, 2007)

A small hole will some times close up as the dog gets older/bigger. A large one can be fatal (like Jeff stated). There is no way for the vet to see how large the hole is with out special equipment/tests. The vet may have heard a murmur only. 

Talk to some Boxer people about this. It is very common in Boxers and as I understand it they test & rate the murmur. Some are completely harmless.

I had a complete heart work up with echo last year before my big surgery. They found a small hole in my heart. Apparently it is really common in humans as well.

Aortic Stenosis develops as the dog’s heart grows, so assessing a young dog can be misleading. Many puppies have innocent murmurs, often referred to as ‘puppy murmurs’ or ‘flow murmurs’ - most disappear by about 16 weeks of age. Even if the puppy murmur persists there may be no cause for alarm so long as they are quiet - genuine "flow" murmurs are not associated with heart disease in the adult. On the other hand, a pup that is free of murmurs at 8 weeks of age, may develop a serious murmur by the time it is mature. A recent recommendation is to have dogs checked over 24 months old as murmurs have been found to develop only after sexual maturity. However, many cardiologists still test from 12 months. 

The best way to diagnose AS is to have an adult dog’s heart listened to by a cardiologist. The murmurs are graded – usually on a scale from 0-5, with 0 being a clear heart free of any murmur. Ideally a murmur will be investigated further using devices like Doppler to check on the cause and nature of the murmur and resulting changes in blood flow. 

The current recommendation is that a murmur of less than Grade 2 is unlikely to affect a dog’s quality of life and is acceptable for breeding. Re-testing of a Grade 0 or Grade 1 murmur is not normally required. 

Murmurs of Grade 2 or greater warrant further investigation through Doppler echocardiography


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

I'm curious about the diagnosis too. I understand hearing the blood turbulence, but I wonder how the vet knows from the sound that it's a hole between the pulmonary artery and the aorta rather than stenosis (of which I think there are a couple of different kinds). Maybe diagnosis was based on the most common puppy heart defect (which is the hole between the pulmonary artery and the aorta)? Maybe Maren will see this.

I think that so-called innocent murmurs usually resolve by 6 months, and you mentioned that this is at least a 6-month-old?


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Connie Sutherland said:


> I'm curious about the diagnosis too. I understand hearing the blood turbulence, but I wonder how the vet knows from the sound that it's a hole between the pulmonary artery and the aorta rather than stenosis (of which I think there are a couple of different kinds). Maybe diagnosis was based on the most common puppy heart defect (which is the hole between the pulmonary artery and the aorta)? Maybe Maren will see this.
> 
> I think that so-called innocent murmurs usually resolve by 6 months, and you mentioned that this is at least a 6-month-old?


I was typing while Julie was posting her much better response.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Vets are money grubbing lawyers. So, second opinion, and don't tell that guy he is second. : )


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## Julie Ann Alvarez (Aug 4, 2007)

http://www.marvistavet.com/html/subaortic_stenosis.html

This link might help you understand.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

When the pup was about 3 1/2 mo old is when he was checked. The vet recommended echos to see hiw bad it was. They did this and it was the voice of doom from the vet....so I would think the vet knew the size. The pup was born 11/27/08. Was tested at about 3 1/2 mo after they picked him up. This puts it at sometime in March they got the voice of doom message. In turn, I get to deal with it also. They people paid for all these tests and walla, as of last mo....the vet can't find this hole and the dog is healthy as a horse.....after they paid for all new tests. It's a miracle!!!! or is it? I keep telling people not to tell the present vet they are thinking about getting a second opinion ....but it seems to be a compulsion to do it anyway.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

CHEATER. you kept the best part for last. Nice one.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

So it was an "innocent" murmur all along? Excellent!


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> .... I keep telling people not to tell the present vet they are thinking about getting a second opinion .....


Or, more important, not to mention to the _second_ vet that s/he is a second opinion.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Yes, I am relieved Connie.....but still pretty suspicious about the whole deal.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Yes, I am relieved Connie.....but still pretty suspicious about the whole deal.


Suspicious as in you didn't/don't believe the prelim, or suspicious that it hasn't really resolved?


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

More so about the prelim and the fact that it was a complete change in as little as 4 mo.....but that is why I asked.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> CHEATER. you kept the best part for last. Nice one.


LMAO. I have found that full disclosure isn't always the best approach to get an answer. You knew it when you saw the second post.LOL


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Vets are money grubbing lawyers. So, second opinion, and don't tell that guy he is second. : )


Still ditto.


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