# finally getting my knpv pup



## Michael Murphy

picking up my pup from the airport in 2 hours dieing from excitement. can't wait to see her, never had a female before. she better have some drive [-o< 

Bloodlines;

BRN 16363

BRN 6004

any tips Alice B?


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## Dave Martin

Congrats Michael, hope she turns out well for you.

If you don't mind sharing, what kennel is she from?


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## Michael Murphy

*Kampftrieb kennels - chris jones*


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Congrats!!! Will be cool to watch her grow up. Looking forward to the pics and vids.

T


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## Alice Bezemer

Michael Murphy said:


> picking up my pup from the airport in 2 hours dieing from excitement. can't wait to see her, never had a female before. she better have some drive [-o<
> 
> Bloodlines;
> 
> BRN 16363
> 
> BRN 6004
> 
> any tips Alice B?


Jary x Beppie. Good lines in both dogs, Michael. 

Any tips from me? :lol: Why am I so special?

okay... tips....

I might have one for you... Set aside all preconceived notions about this pup, forget all about drive, nerves and whatever other words people love to use... Let it be a pup, let her grow up and have fun with her. Work with what she SHOWS you! Do not push or pull in order to get out of her what you feel SHOULD be there to begin with. She will show you what she is capable of if you give her the space to do so. Stepping into this pup thing with any notions of what drives she SHOULD have is the wrong way to go about things. You post shows you are already on the wrong path... She is from good lines, give her the chance to show you what she has and be smart and patient with that. 

I guess my best tip is : Don't be stupid with her! It is incredibly easy to ruin her if you stick to the wrong ideas of what you think she should be as opposed to what she really is. She will be, in a large part, what you make of her....


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## Matt Vandart

Cool!
Hope we get vids and pics!

^^^ Good advice right there ^^^

Good luck fella, mine has been an eye opener, you'll have fun dude!


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## patricia powers

" Set aside all preconceived notions about this pup, forget all about drive, nerves and whatever other words people love to use... Let it be a pup, let her grow up and have fun with her. Work with what she SHOWS you! Do not push or pull in order to get out of her what you feel SHOULD be there to begin with. She will show you what she is capable of if you give her the space to do so. Stepping into this pup thing with any notions of what drives she SHOULD have is the wrong way to go about things. "
that is good advice for anyone with a pup or young dog. 
pjp


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## Michael Murphy

Alice Bezemer said:


> Jary x Beppie. Good lines in both dogs, Michael.
> 
> Any tips from me? :lol: Why am I so special?
> 
> okay... tips....
> 
> I might have one for you... Set aside all preconceived notions about this pup, forget all about drive, nerves and whatever other words people love to use... Let it be a pup, let her grow up and have fun with her. Work with what she SHOWS you! Do not push or pull in order to get out of her what you feel SHOULD be there to begin with. She will show you what she is capable of if you give her the space to do so. Stepping into this pup thing with any notions of what drives she SHOULD have is the wrong way to go about things. You post shows you are already on the wrong path... She is from good lines, give her the chance to show you what she has and be smart and patient with that.
> 
> I guess my best tip is : Don't be stupid with her! It is incredibly easy to ruin her if you stick to the wrong ideas of what you think she should be as opposed to what she really is. She will be, in a large part, what you make of her....


thanks Alice, not pushing her at all , just treating her like a puppy and playing with some toys. ill wait untill 7 months like you say. 
anything the dutch like to do with a 9 week old puppy, other then tugging?


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## Michael Murphy

how old is your berry 2 pup Alice?


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## rick smith

i'm starting to get curious ... i know you are the type of guy who likes to do his homework in advance, rather than shoot from the hip 

so, are you planning on doing KNPV training, titling her and then selling her to LE Michael ?


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## rick smith

forgot to add .... CONGRATULATIONS !!

btw, what did she cost ?
(if that is an ok question and doesn't seem intrusive to you)

the breeder you referenced has a pretty impressive web site, so i'm thinking their prices might be steep with a breeding program full of world class dogs and semen collections, etc

i suppose any price is a good one if you get a good dog for your money


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## Alice Bezemer

Michael Murphy said:


> thanks Alice, not pushing her at all , just treating her like a puppy and playing with some toys. ill wait untill 7 months like you say.
> anything the dutch like to do with a 9 week old puppy, other then tugging?


We love to walk and feed them! :lol:

All kidding aside tho, everyone has a different approach to a pup. I like to just let the dog do its thing and use what he shows me, Robbie II likes to bark and loves to search, keeping it playfull I use that to do the bark on the box and small article search... Whatever you can let a pup do in play and have him enjoy is a huge bonus for the future. Just look at what your dog shows you, what he enjoys and use that in whatever training you plan to do but keep it fun and playfull so you will reap the benefits when he is older. 



Michael Murphy said:


> how old is your berry 2 pup Alice?


 5 months old today! Will post some shots of him on his topic if I can find it again


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## Sarah Platts

Michael Murphy said:


> thanks Alice, not pushing her at all , just treating her like a puppy and playing with some toys. ill wait untill 7 months like you say.
> anything the dutch like to do with a 9 week old puppy, other then tugging?


I know that I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer but missed the post where Alice said 7 months was the magic age. Dogs, like humans, can mature at different rates. My suggestion? Don't get hooked on things starting or occuring by or at a certain age.


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## Haz Othman

I thought bite sports where illegal in Australia..as well as critical thought..oops that must be somewhere else...


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## Michael Murphy

Selena, any tips or input on the bloodlines? , i know u know a bit


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## Matt Vandart

Haz Othman said:


> I thought bite sports where illegal in Australia..*as well as critical thought*..oops that must be somewhere else...


Bwahahahahaha! isn't that like the case in most parts of the world these days?


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## Michael Murphy

rick smith said:


> forgot to add .... CONGRATULATIONS !!
> 
> btw, what did she cost ?
> (if that is an ok question and doesn't seem intrusive to you)
> 
> the breeder you referenced has a pretty impressive web site, so i'm thinking their prices might be steep with a breeding program full of world class dogs and semen collections, etc
> 
> i suppose any price is a good one if you get a good dog for your money


yea very impressive website, one of the best breeder is Aus definately, also happens the sell at the cheapest prices, problem is it's very difficult to get him to sell you a pup, i think iv been waiting almost 4 years for a pup of him.


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## Michael Murphy

already have a question, the pup on the tug shakes her head like crazy, pulls a little then shakes to rip it out of my hand. let her shake and do what she wants or try to teach one of those calm bites by patting her etc?


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## Joby Becker

Michael Murphy said:


> already have a question, the pup on the tug shakes her head like crazy, pulls a little then shakes to rip it out of my hand. let her shake and do what she wants or try to teach one of those calm bites by patting her etc?


Is this the pup you are titling in KNPV?


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## Christopher Jones

Michael, Alice said it pretty well. You need to show her things and teach her what you want her to be. Look at things as learning experiences, not testing experiences. Try and look for things to make her stronger, not for things thay may undo her. Any flog can try and stress a pup out. Build her drive, build her confidence, build her bond and trust with you. Shes 9 weeks of age. Try and keep her social, also would be my advice. 
And take advice from people who know what they are talking about. Good general rule of thumb is avoid people who talk about tough dog this, tough dog that, yet they have no dog of value themselfs. Dont let anyone do stupid shit with your dog. While im sure you want her to protect you, you also owe it to her to protect her. 
If you take her to a sport club, and that would be what I recommend to you, dont talk her up. Egos abound in the dog world and you might get someone who might want to prove your wrong by taking it out on your dog. So no KNPV this, Jary that, better than German Shepherd this, keep it to yourself. Let others tell you how good your dog is. It sounds much better when others talk your dog up than when your doing it.


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## angelo sintubin

My training, it's about winning, little successes how small they are. Set it up that your pup always wins and want to come back for more, but dont give in to that. If you think its time to stop the training stop, let the pup hungry for more. Dont train untill they are tired or have no more interest in the training,games.
Play, have fun, take it to places. My first training on new locations are scouting it out with my dog and play. Nothing more.

Most important, find 1 very good helper for bitework, that you trust and stick with him. He will build your dog up, but it takes time. Remember little successes are the road to a big one.
Have fun with the pupp. Succes.


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## Michael Murphy

Christopher Jones said:


> Michael, Alice said it pretty well. You need to show her things and teach her what you want her to be. Look at things as learning experiences, not testing experiences. Try and look for things to make her stronger, not for things thay may undo her. Any flog can try and stress a pup out. Build her drive, build her confidence, build her bond and trust with you. Shes 9 weeks of age. Try and keep her social, also would be my advice.
> And take advice from people who know what they are talking about. Good general rule of thumb is avoid people who talk about tough dog this, tough dog that, yet they have no dog of value themselfs. Dont let anyone do stupid shit with your dog. While im sure you want her to protect you, you also owe it to her to protect her.
> If you take her to a sport club, and that would be what I recommend to you, dont talk her up. Egos abound in the dog world and you might get someone who might want to prove your wrong by taking it out on your dog. So no KNPV this, Jary that, better than German Shepherd this, keep it to yourself. Let others tell you how good your dog is. It sounds much better when others talk your dog up than when your doing it.


chris i think the puppy woke up :-o she is none stop biting like a freaking piranha, almost took my finger of today. She got startled by two things when i first brought her home but now shes not afraid of anything it seems. but im definately not pushing her or testing her, there is no way im going to ruin her, ill be patient. almost do you think i should expose her to the decoy asap or do you think waiting untill she finishes teething at around 7 months would be ok?
also when socialising do you let other ppl fondle your puppies? or just keep it so she can jump (actually bite there pants) on them and they cant touch her?


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## rick smith

re : "biting like a freaking piranha, almost took my finger of today."
.... if the age of the pup is what i think it is, either you have one helluva strong pup or you are .... never mind; you wouldn't get my point ](*,)

i'll wait for the vids and keep my distance 
... in the meantime all i will say is i sure wish you already had some basic understanding of the basic advice everyone has posted and actually had a training plan in your mind beyond seeing how much of the "lines" show up or don't show up in your KNPV puppy

i would have thought if you had waited four years to get this pup you would be a little more advanced now that the rubber is finally meeting the road. so far it reads more like an experiment

regardless, good luck

p.s. appreciate the details re: the "cheap" cost ... i've been looking at getting a dog from Au since it is a rabies free country and shipping to here is reasonable ... that helped me a lot


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## Matt Vandart

Christopher Jones said:


> Michael, Alice said it pretty well. You need to show her things and teach her what you want her to be. Look at things as learning experiences, not testing experiences. Try and look for things to make her stronger, not for things thay may undo her. Any flog can try and stress a pup out. Build her drive, build her confidence, build her bond and trust with you. *Shes 9 weeks of age. Try and keep her social, also would be my advice. *
> And take advice from people who know what they are talking about. Good general rule of thumb is avoid people who talk about tough dog this, tough dog that, yet they have no dog of value themselfs. *Dont let anyone do stupid shit with your dog.* While im sure you want her to protect you, you also owe it to her to protect her.
> If you take her to a sport club, and that would be what I recommend to you, dont talk her up. Egos abound in the dog world and you might get someone who might want to prove your wrong by taking it out on your dog. So no KNPV this, Jary that, better than German Shepherd this, keep it to yourself. Let others tell you how good your dog is. It sounds much better when others talk your dog up than when your doing it.


More awesome advice.


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## Michael Murphy

rick smith said:


> re : "biting like a freaking piranha, almost took my finger of today."
> .... if the age of the pup is what i think it is, either you have one helluva strong pup or you are .... never mind; you wouldn't get my point ](*,)
> 
> i'll wait for the vids and keep my distance
> ... in the meantime all i will say is i sure wish you already had some basic understanding of the basic advice everyone has posted and actually had a training plan in your mind beyond seeing how much of the "lines" show up or don't show up in your KNPV puppy
> 
> i would have thought if you had waited four years to get this pup you would be a little more advanced now that the rubber is finally meeting the road. so far it reads more like an experiment
> 
> regardless, good luck
> 
> p.s. appreciate the details re: the "cheap" cost ... i've been looking at getting a dog from Au since it is a rabies free country and shipping to here is reasonable ... that helped me a lot


i was obviously exagerating , but it dude hurt, and i dont hurt easy 8)
yea he sells for about half the price the rest of the country does.
if he uses that Danko semen he has u might want to consider at pup....


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## Tiago Fontes

Something else to keep in mind:

There are no super dogs... Try keeping your expectations in check and allow the dog proper time to develop. 

Have you found a club? If so, direct those questions at your training director, since he will be the one outlining the training of your dog...


Regards and good luck,

Tiago


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## Michael Murphy

Tiago Fontes said:


> Something else to keep in mind:
> 
> There are no super dogs... Try keeping your expectations in check and allow the dog proper time to develop.
> 
> Have you found a club? If so, direct those questions to your training director, since he will be the one outlining the training of your dog...
> 
> 
> Regards and good luck,
> 
> Tiago


i can only go to an ipo club in my area, but ill wait untill 7 months to avoid accidents during the teething period.


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## Tiago Fontes

Michael Murphy said:


> i can only go to an ipo club in my area, but ill wait untill 7 months to avoid accidents during the teething period.


 
There's a lot more to foundation than biting only... Take this advice, go to your club and start doing something (tracking, focus work and some easy biting with a helper who knows something). 

You will be under supervision and guidance. 


Regards


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## Guy Williams

Michael Murphy said:


> also when socialising do you let other ppl fondle your puppies? or just keep it so she can jump (actually bite there pants) on them and they cant touch her?


It depends how social you want your dog to be and how confident she already is.

I like my dogs to be what I call people neutral. Neither excited or phased by people, no matter how many, what size or shape they come in etc. I expose them to everyone and let some people touch. If the dog is confident then that is sufficent. If the dog is at all unsure I expose some more.

If i'm on track then the dog should be comfortable around people but not seeking them out but tolerant if they do touch.

As a rule of thumb I generally find me, my family, the vet and kennel staff is more than enough people for the dog to be happy being touched and everybody else is just there in the back ground.

I never stop socialising with other dogs and as long as they will ignore other dogs when we are working I am happy for them to play as much as they want in their own time.

If you want your dog to be more social than that then you can expose to more friendly people who pet and feed your dog and look for signs that she is seeking out attention from them.


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## susan tuck

Congratulations on your new pup, have fun!


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## Alice Bezemer

Tiago Fontes said:


> There's a lot more to foundation than biting only... Take this advice, go to your club and start doing something (tracking, focus work and some easy biting with a helper who knows something).
> 
> You will be under supervision and guidance.
> 
> 
> Regards


sound advice right there....

There is more to any sporting or protection venue than biting only. Stop focussing on biting only and look for the complete picture here. The dog will not be trained in bite alone. There is a vast programme to train for so start with that.... keep it short, sweet and fun. A bite here and there on the rag on puppy sleeve is oka...just don't overdo it. If she bites she bites! It doesn't mean all she has to do is bite tho. Robbie 2 bites and so far hes been at club 3 times a week doing the small stuff and some obediance..does he bite 3 times week? Fk no! He has bitten a rag and a sleeve... both 1 time.... hes been at club for almost 3 months tho.... 

keep the following rule in mind , Michael. 

" Just because you can doesn't mean you should. "


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## Connie Sutherland

Congratulations, Michael.



PS

I sure hope for the sake of the puppy that you're really reading the advice posted here and not just skimming and dismissing it. 
_
"There's a lot more to foundation than biting ... "_


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## Kevin Cyr

Christopher Jones said:


> Michael, Alice said it pretty well. You need to show her things and teach her what you want her to be. Look at things as learning experiences, not testing experiences. Try and look for things to make her stronger, not for things thay may undo her. Any flog can try and stress a pup out. Build her drive, build her confidence, build her bond and trust with you. Shes 9 weeks of age. Try and keep her social, also would be my advice.
> And take advice from people who know what they are talking about. Good general rule of thumb is avoid people who talk about tough dog this, tough dog that, yet they have no dog of value themselfs. Dont let anyone do stupid shit with your dog. While im sure you want her to protect you, you also owe it to her to protect her.
> If you take her to a sport club, and that would be what I recommend to you, dont talk her up. Egos abound in the dog world and you might get someone who might want to prove your wrong by taking it out on your dog. So no KNPV this, Jary that, better than German Shepherd this, keep it to yourself. Let others tell you how good your dog is. It sounds much better when others talk your dog up than when your doing it.


Too late Chris....have you read many of his threads....its all about the bloodline, KNPV training, ego/hype and of course biting.......


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## Christopher Jones

Kevin Cyr said:


> Too late Chris....have you read many of his threads....its all about the bloodline, KNPV training, ego/hype and of course biting.......


Yeah well hopefully he can move from questions and talking about this and that to actually training and doing now that he has his pup.


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## David Baker

Good thing youre not doing french ring. Those dudes will actually hurt your pup (within the rules) if they dont like you. FR decoys can be brutal and could give a shit ab your dog unless they like you. 

I think youre just really excited about your pup and even more excited about the bite portion of her training. Thats understandable. Just keep in mind that some people would like to make their own assessment of your dog rather than hear it from you of what she is "suppose" to be. Just keep that in mind. If a trainer sees something they dont like and more so that you wont like to hear, dont reply with anything about his bloodline or the bitch and sire. Just except it and try to improve her on that subject. Chances are, the person knows more than you do (i hope they would since theyre a trainer), which is expected and is what you want. Go into training like you are Daniel son, and they are Miyagi. 

cliff notes: Wax on, Wax off.

Enjoy your pup. Im excited for you and also excited to see your progress and growth with her.


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## Michael Murphy

Alice Bezemer said:


> sound advice right there....
> 
> There is more to any sporting or protection venue than biting only. Stop focussing on biting only and look for the complete picture here. The dog will not be trained in bite alone. There is a vast programme to train for so start with that.... keep it short, sweet and fun. A bite here and there on the rag on puppy sleeve is oka...just don't overdo it. If she bites she bites! It doesn't mean all she has to do is bite tho. Robbie 2 bites and so far hes been at club 3 times a week doing the small stuff and some obediance..does he bite 3 times week? Fk no! He has bitten a rag and a sleeve... both 1 time.... hes been at club for almost 3 months tho....
> 
> keep the following rule in mind , Michael.
> 
> " Just because you can doesn't mean you should. "


the only reason i focus on biting is cause i suck at training it, and cause my previous gsd didnt really have it. this pup definately has it, except sometimes she can get chewy on a bite (is that because on those occasions im not putting enough tension on the tug?, im only pulling very softly because i dont want to hurt her teeth)
obedience just requires repition
i will tak her to ipo club for tracking after she has had her second vaccination ( also is knpv tracking a lot different from Ipo tracking)
also my favourite think in knpv is object guard , can you start the introduction training of this excercise at 10 weeks or is she too young? i also have no idea how to train it :sad:


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## Michael Murphy

Christopher Jones said:


> Yeah well hopefully he can move from questions and talking about this and that to actually training and doing now that he has his pup.


trust me im doing. also chris do you think i should start doing some tug with a decoy or just tie her out and do it myself for now and then wait untill she is 7 months before i risk a decoy doing puppy bite sleeve etc with her, or is that too late?

ps very happy with the puppy ( and the bloodlines ) THANKS A LOT \\/


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## Michael Murphy

^ she makes my GSD look like a dud , she has about 10 times the drive he had. Also are you using a puppy sleeve with you pups and if so which one do you recommend?


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## Michael Murphy

Michael Murphy said:


> the only reason i focus on biting is cause i suck at training it, and cause my previous gsd didnt really have it. this pup definately has it, except sometimes she can get chewy on a bite (is that because on those occasions im not putting enough tension on the tug?, im only pulling very softly because i dont want to hurt her teeth)
> obedience just requires repition
> i will tak her to ipo club for tracking after she has had her second vaccination ( also is knpv tracking a lot different from Ipo tracking)
> also my favourite think in knpv is object guard , can you start the introduction training of this excercise at 10 weeks or is she too young? i also have no idea how to train it :sad:


Also Also, she doesnt pull on the tug a lot (she does pull but only some) she more likes to stay there and shake her head like she is possessed to pull it out of my hand, is this normal for knpv pups? what is your opinion on this?


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## Michael Murphy

i know im being a bit greed but i would REALLY like Austin , Mike and Dick/Selena to chime in too ( now that i finally got this knpv pup) , surely they would have some specific training advice [-o<


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## Michael Murphy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=buakL5yLxi0&feature=youtu.be see that puppy sleeve Austin is using, is it recommended i get one and start using (or is bite pillow , tug less risky? as i am worried i might hurt her teeth) . also is that the same sleeve his using when he does the bite work when the pup is much older?


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## Austin Porter

congrats on your pup..
That Elite K9 sleeve is super soft. The sleeve wont hurt the pups teeth.. poor, half ass work will though. My personal advice is this.. STOP watching vids and go find someone who can build up the pup. You have to understand what you are watching (the why behind the work) Doing puppy bite work is so much more than just playing tug/teaching the dog to bite.


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## Austin Porter

And.. Yes, I use that (or similar equipment) as long as I or my helpers can take the bites. I like thin, I like to feel the dog and I want the dog to feel me for sure. As a training decoy you are constantly taking in data/info from the dog. So.. the more I can feel and see from the dog the more productive I can make the work. But again, you have to know what you are looking at. That's just my take on it lol.. There people on WDF far more qualified than me that can probably give you a better answer but that's my .02


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## Austin Porter

Michael Murphy said:


> i know im being a bit greed but i would REALLY like Austin , Mike and Dick/Selena to chime in too ( now that i finally got this knpv pup) , surely they would have some specific training advice [-o<


 
hahaha lmao! Did you just mention my name next to Suttle and the van Leeuwen's...? Really?


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## Haz Othman

Hey Mike I recently came off a dud too,so got a pup from nice lines had a lot of expectations of what she should be. Lets just say when she first got home and for the first two weeks I thought I had ended up with another dud. I was not happy with what I was seeing, and everything was set up for a return/replacement.
On the last day I took her out to the club and was told that perhaps I was being hasty. So I decided to see what she would be. I socialized the [email protected] out of her and took her everywhere, lots of play, confidence building etc. Within a month she did a 180, and started showing me a lot of what i wanted to see. Drive, confidence, hardness etc.
She is now sitting at 6 months, just got back from IPO this afternoon, she has only been about 4 times. She is on the decoy, barks like a big male, has nice grips/entries and so far is making me very happy. 

I think the internet is a great resource but sometimes you can get caught up in all the talk of bloodlines, drive, youtube etc. You expect a superhero to come out of the crate, and when your expectations arent met you jump to conclusions and take the first step to failing your new pup. 

Im not saying that my dog is perfect or that your dog isnt a superhero, or that at some point you shouldnt have some expectations. All Im saying is relax and let her be what she is going to be, build her up and dont forget to have FUN! 
Also, take her to the club talk to the veterens that know dogs and have been doing IPO or whatever sport for longer then you have been alive you will learn a bunch. 

Congrats on the pup.


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## brad robert

You are very lucky to get a pup of chris and i know of other guys with dutchies who would love a pup off him so have fun and look after her! 

Just play tug with your pup make sure she likes it so not to much at first and dont worry bout sleeves and stuff for now and use tugs of different material and let her have little wins when she has a super grip and get her use to being touched etc


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## Matt Vandart

Michael Murphy said:


> already have a question, the pup on the tug shakes her head like crazy, pulls a little then shakes to rip it out of my hand. let her shake and do what she wants or try to teach one of those calm bites by patting her etc?


That depends on what you want from her and what you are going to do with her. I like a calm bite and generally pick puppies which have a propensity to have a bite which is calm.

I'm not any of the people you want to get advice on like Alice and others you mentioned but here's a vid of Sali and how I developed her calm bite and grip. That not to say I don't let her/she doesn't rag stuff, just what I try to work towards. 
Anyway just in case you are interested.

7weeks, 6months then 10 months:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUbabG5t7i4

Obv not as good as Austins vid, but he is very lucky to have a bunch of mates that are helping him unlike my useless junky toss bags of buddies, lol. 
Also wish I had done more environmental shit like in that vid definately do that stuff.


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## Michael Murphy

Matt Vandart said:


> That depends on what you want from her and what you are going to do with her. I like a calm bite and generally pick puppies which have a propensity to have a bite which is calm.
> 
> I'm not any of the people you want to get advice on like Alice and others you mentioned but here's a vid of Sali and how I developed her calm bite and grip. That not to say I don't let her/she doesn't rag stuff, just what I try to work towards.
> Anyway just in case you are interested.
> 
> 7weeks, 6months then 10 months:
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUbabG5t7i4
> 
> Obv not as good as Austins vid, but he is very lucky to have a bunch of mates that are helping him unlike my useless junky toss bags of buddies, lol.
> Also wish I had done more environmental shit like in that vid definately do that stuff.


thanks that heaps good


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## Christopher Jones

Michael Murphy said:


> the only reason i focus on biting is cause i suck at training it, and cause my previous gsd didnt really have it. this pup definately has it, except sometimes she can get chewy on a bite (is that because on those occasions im not putting enough tension on the tug?, im only pulling very softly because i dont want to hurt her teeth)
> obedience just requires repition
> i will tak her to ipo club for tracking after she has had her second vaccination ( also is knpv tracking a lot different from Ipo tracking)
> also my favourite think in knpv is object guard , can you start the introduction training of this excercise at 10 weeks or is she too young? i also have no idea how to train it :sad:


Just be careful about over doing the actual biting part with her and pay more attention to building frustration with her to keep the drive high. Too much of a good thing can reduce your interest. Im sure if I started to pimp my services out to frustrated bikini models every night after a few weeks im proberbly gonna loose some interest. 8-[
95% frustration and drive building, 5% actual biting.
Dont read too much into puppy behaviours like growling or crazy biting/head shaking, as alot these behaviours dissapear as they age. Most of my pups will fly i to me and bite me pretty seriously if i piss them off too much at 8 weeks of age, but this doesnt carry over very much.


----------



## Tiago Fontes

The problem with his "non biting" GSD is probably that...not enough frustration or drive building. 

This is why I suggested him going to a club and have someone properly laying the foundation. 



Regards


----------



## Michael Murphy

Austin Porter said:


> congrats on your pup..
> That Elite K9 sleeve is super soft. The sleeve wont hurt the pups teeth.. poor, half ass work will though. My personal advice is this.. STOP watching vids and go find someone who can build up the pup. You have to understand what you are watching (the why behind the work) Doing puppy bite work is so much more than just playing tug/teaching the dog to bite.


http://www.elitek9.com/Young-Puppy-Sleeve/productinfo/B09/ is this the sleeve Austin? if so jute or synthetic?


----------



## Maureen A Osborn

Sundogs Gear has great softpuppy sleeves...but right now I would work on rag, keep it prey, and frustrate the pup....can never have too much drive, and like someone said, dont do so much that it gets boring....my friend I train with has a Berry II grandson, he has been named Hannibal Lecter, LOL, nice calm, full mouth bites....work on socialization and keep it all FUN. Also, its never to early to work on OB. FYI, my Arko Kikkert granddaughter is maturing just as i was told she would like the rest of the dogs of her lines....getting nice control, very little if any defensiveness, works in prey now, and really no" sharpness" to speak of now, smart as a whip, great OB....so I would keep in the back of my mind this pup's lines and genetics when training her. Good luck!


----------



## Austin Porter

Christopher Jones said:


> Just be careful about over doing the actual biting part with her and pay more attention to building frustration with her to keep the drive high. Too much of a good thing can reduce your interest. Im sure if I started to pimp my services out to frustrated bikini models every night after a few weeks im proberbly gonna loose some interest. 8-[
> 95% frustration and drive building, 5% actual biting.
> Dont read too much into puppy behaviours like growling or crazy biting/head shaking, as alot these behaviours dissapear as they age. Most of my pups will fly i to me and bite me pretty seriously if i piss them off too much at 8 weeks of age, but this doesnt carry over very much.


Good, important info here mike... Read up...^

Yes, that's the sleeve. The material is a personal preference, don't think it matters to much on that sleeve.


----------



## rick smith

i'm posting this not so much as feedback for Michael, but rather because i think it applies to any new dog
-----------------------------------
i don't think it is ever fair to train one dog differently based on what you might have screwed up with another dog, and Michael has already brought this up in regards to how he is treating his new pup. that is a bad way to train imo, and it has nothing to do with "learning from mistakes". it is comparing one dog to another. 
- plus, no one here knows any concrete details of his previous gsd, and therefore i think it is wrong to make any assumptions about any "perceived" deficiencies in his gsd and whether they were training mistakes or not

Michael : i don't really know what you are talking about re: "socializing", but i think you are looking at it wrong, and if you have read any of my posts regarding the "socialization" process, you would know why i think a LOT of people go about it all wrong 
- the connotation of the word itself lends it to being miss-applied. maybe it would be better to scrap the word completely and instead call it "reactivity desensitizing"

imo, people who claim their dog "doesn't have to like anyone", or are satisfied that their dog is never comfortable or relaxed in the presence of strangers are also applying "socializing" the wrong way.

- to me socializing is nothing more than maintaining CONTROL of your dog in public, and around new people, and in different environments
***and notice i haven't said ANYTHING about the dog's temperament, or "genetics". to me that shouldn't matter at all

- the dog should pay attention to YOU at all times and not other people around it...that's why you should be playing with your pup rather than allowing it to jump all over your friends...you've just had it a few days, right ? why does it already need to "meet people" ? if you think it does, i'm guessing it's just because you want to show off your new pup, and that would be a piss poor reason .... imo
**but also, i have no idea what kind of friends you have, or what you think is cool for the pup to do. and you may have friends who want to wrestle around with your pup. but those are NOT the kind of people i hang around when i'm working with a pup

- it's all about control and NON reactivity, NOT making it "social or unsocial", and not trying to change the genetic temperament it was born with.
- and it's easily measured. EVERY dog i work with that goes ape shit in public won't even give their owner more than a few seconds of eye contact, even when they are alone and not around ANY distractions ](*,)

- if a pup or dog lights up on people for no reason that is a control problem the handler must correct. it's not a socializing issue imo
- in a similar way, you as a handler should be able to take your dog up to anyone and allow a controlled interaction, but that doesn't mean they need to pet it or give it a hug, or give it a leg to chew on, or tug with it ... and if it won't do that without a reaction, you don't (yet) have enuff control over your dog

- if someone lets their pup come up and mug me and/or jump on me, or bite my clothes the pup will go down asap and sent back in the direction of the handler ... actually i don't care how old the dog is ... my reaction will be the same 
- that's just me .... ymmv of course

of course i agree the basic advice given here is no brainer stuff for most people, but it also makes me wonder if anyone feels the same way i do about the "socializing" thing, since it always comes up when people talk about "socializing" their pup or new dog


----------



## Matt Vandart

Making the dog neutral?


----------



## Marcel Winter

Be carefeull with your pup doing some bitework I have a KNPV Dutchie too he is now 5 months old I have only
done some bitework at 8 weeks old on a puppy sleeve his grip is good , I,m now waiting with teething until 7 or 8 months
and don,t let him bite be patient thats important and hope you gonna find a good helper.

Marcel


----------



## Connie Sutherland

Pretty much, Matt.

That is, I want my dogs to be tolerant of and pretty much indifferent to what may trigger reactivity in another dog ... strange dogs on the other side of the street, skateboards, men wearing hats, cars, noises ...

I want my dogs to have seen it all when they were young and to view it all as normal background.

"Socializing" doesn't mean meet-and-greets for me. 

JMO!



Wanted to highlight something from Haz's post that many are saying here:

_"Also, take her to the club talk to the veterens that know dogs and have been doing IPO or whatever sport for longer then you have been alive you will learn a bunch."_


----------



## Michael Murphy

Marcel Winter said:


> Be carefeull with your pup doing some bitework I have a KNPV Dutchie too he is now 5 months old I have only
> done some bitework at 8 weeks old on a puppy sleeve his grip is good , I,m now waiting with teething until 7 or 8 months
> and don,t let him bite be patient thats important and hope you gonna find a good helper.
> 
> Marcel


thanks Marcel,

are you including working with tugs and rags in bitework as well? are you doing frustration work or throwing a ball around at the moment? Also do you tie the pup out for most of the day and only engage with it during work time? cause at the moment im letting my pup stay with me all the time in the house and do watever, i think i might be being too affectionate as well :???:


----------



## rick smith

Matt
- what you posted is the RESULT
- i don't really care if the dog becomes neutral or not; i'm not trying to change its genetics

- what i started to explain very briefly was a totally different PROCESS for getting that result than what i have seen and read about "socializing" a dog, and why i think the word is misleading to begin with

getting the new dog "out and about" to meet the world and be exposed is often done before the owner has developed the minimum focus and control necessary and instead it becomes a test to see how close one can come before the dog "reacts", whether it's with people places or things.

i do NOT do it that way ... all i do is keep control of the dog when it is out so that the environment becomes secondary to its focus on me

hard to say it in words, but i'll give you the example i used to describe a test in my post.
- if the dog can't give you steady eye contact when you tell it to, in a familiar, conflict free area, i doubt you will have much success when any distraction is present, no matter how close or far away ... and vice versa 

iow, work more on control FIRST before ever taking the dog out, and this step is often overlooked. instead, people think the more the dog can absorb outside the better it gets "socialized". then they become a presenter and let the dog look all over the place. i do it the opposite way. i do MORE focus drills to keep the dog's eyes ears and nose from wandering when out. "I" bring the dog to people rather than allow the dog to approach people on its own terms, even if i think it is comfortable.
- with aggressive dogs this is necessary an a no brainer but it's just as effective for any type of dog 

"getting a neutral dog" is NOT the process i was starting to discuss, and there is a lot more to it, getting more control of your dog was the process 

- i only brought it up now cause the OP brought it up, by giving a typical example of what i don't recommend 

bottom line : your summary label was correct, but i'm talking about a totally different way to get there


----------



## rick smith

there are some simple ways to measure a dog regarding how well a dog is socialized in a public place.

zillions of ways but here's some simple stuff :
when you are out with the dog in public and have walked around a bit, find a bench or a place to sit down, plant your butt and chill out with the dog.
- don't give it a command - observe
- does it stay up in a stand, sit or lay down ?
- does it face you or the world ?
.... chances are it won't be facing you 
.... chances are it will sit in front of you, but facing the world 
- ask for E.C. - how quick and for how long do you get it ? (without a treat in your hand of course)
- now put it in a down facing you with its back to the world. will it stay in that position without turning around ? watch ear movements; is it looking your way but listening to what is behind it ? ... what (types and volume) noises will cause it to turn and look ?
- then start doing stuff with the dog requiring focus and see how it's body language changes
- then see if you can do the same stuff in different places and when walking, etc

iow, you can also do a lot of "socializing" by simply observing and sitting on your butt

these are simple and basic (but specific) first steps, but gotta walk b4 u run and it gives you a baseline to measure future progress for any dog with any level of reactivity, lack of focus and lack of control or great focus .... pup or adult
....then you know how much to raise the bar 

way different than just hitching it up and taking it out to "expose" it to the world....my way is to get it to IGNORE the world around it and i don't do it with lead pops, leave its, No's and other nagging physical corrections


----------



## Alice Bezemer

Michael Murphy said:


> thanks Marcel,
> 
> are you including working with tugs and rags in bitework as well? are you doing frustration work or throwing a ball around at the moment? Also do you tie the pup out for most of the day and only engage with it during work time? cause at the moment im letting my pup stay with me all the time in the house and do watever, i think i might be being too affectionate as well :???:


Stop making such a fuss about the pup and what it does or doesn't do, Michael! This pup isn't like your former dog and it isn't like your next dog. Treat this pup as the individual it is. Judge her on her character and not on what you have seen or experianced in other dogs! That is the surest way to **** her up. Look at your pup and I mean REALLY LOOK! What do you see? She is giving you all the information that you need you just have to be smart enough to see and use it! Get of off your ideas of drive and play and tug and ball, look at your pup and use what she gives you to your advantage. It really isn't all that hard if you just take the time and make an effort to do so. And please stop equating her to every and any other dog out there or you will never get shit done with her and she is destined to become another statistic of useless dog due to owner ignorance. BTW, there is nothing wrong with being affectionate with your dog, why on gods green earth would you think that that is wrong?

You seriously need to set aside all your ideas of what dogs are and how they work and start using some common sense, Michael. 

And yes... I am pretty miffed with you right now because you are getting excellent advice from a lot of people on this topis but in your mind you still seem to be stuck on a path of stupidity and are unwilling to revise your views of what a working dog is or should be.

Post a video of your pup and some pictures.


----------



## Michael Murphy

Alice Bezemer said:


> Stop making such a fuss about the pup and what it does or doesn't do, Michael! This pup isn't like your former dog and it isn't like your next dog. Treat this pup as the individual it is. Judge her on her character and not on what you have seen or experianced in other dogs! That is the surest way to **** her up. Look at your pup and I mean REALLY LOOK! What do you see? She is giving you all the information that you need you just have to be smart enough to see and use it! Get of off your ideas of drive and play and tug and ball, look at your pup and use what she gives you to your advantage. It really isn't all that hard if you just take the time and make an effort to do so. And please stop equating her to every and any other dog out there or you will never get shit done with her and she is destined to become another statistic of useless dog due to owner ignorance. BTW, there is nothing wrong with being affectionate with your dog, why on gods green earth would you think that that is wrong?
> 
> You seriously need to set aside all your ideas of what dogs are and how they work and start using some common sense, Michael.
> 
> And yes... I am pretty miffed with you right now because you are getting excellent advice from a lot of people on this topis but in your mind you still seem to be stuck on a path of stupidity and are unwilling to revise your views of what a working dog is or should be.
> 
> Post a video of your pup and some pictures.


the reason i ask about frustration, tug work, ball play etc is because she goes to be teething soon , so i want to know what i can do and cant do at this time.
the affection thing is because some ipo guy told me that you should only be patting your pup when its on a tug or sleeve or when doing obedience, otherwise you should leave her in a kennel or tie the pup out so that it stays high drive etc 
ill try post something tonight, if i get home before dark
Alice please give me a basic idea of what you do during the teething period with the pup, obedience and tracking only or some drive building too (and if so what?)
All i can see from the puppy at the moment is that it likes to bite a lot, im also trying to do a lot of environmental stuff, im taking her everywhere


----------



## Alice Bezemer

Michael Murphy said:


> the reason i ask about frustration, tug work, ball play etc is because she goes to be teething soon , so i want to know what i can do and cant do at this time.
> the affection thing is because some ipo guy told me that you should only be patting your pup when its on a tug or sleeve or when doing obedience, otherwise you should leave her in a kennel or tie the pup out so that it stays high drive etc
> ill try post something tonight, if i get home before dark
> Alice please give me a basic idea of what you do during the teething period with the pup, obedience and tracking only or some drive building too (and if so what?)
> All i can see from the puppy at the moment is that it likes to bite a lot, im also trying to do a lot of environmental stuff, im taking her everywhere


Its posted on the forum what I do but Michael you are completely missing the point here! What I do with MY pup is what my pup is ready for. He shows me he can handle what I do and thats what I work with. What I do with MY pup will not work for YOUR pup because they are completely different dogs! Thats is the one thing you constantly miss in this picture, your dog is your dog, you can not equate it to anyone elses dog since they are not the same. 

As for the IPO TWIT? Hes a TWIT, ignore him. Worst advice you could have ever gotten in your life and trust you to follow it! Its stupid advice, it has no bearing on anything and you should NOT follow it. You support your pup in anything it does, be it at home or on the field. Letting it figure out things for itself without any feedback or affection from its owner will only turn your dog into a problem with 4 legs. You IPO guy is an idiot.


----------



## Michael Murphy

Alice Bezemer said:


> Its posted on the forum what I do but Michael you are completely missing the point here! What I do with MY pup is what my pup is ready for. He shows me he can handle what I do and thats what I work with. What I do with MY pup will not work for YOUR pup because they are completely different dogs! Thats is the one thing you constantly miss in this picture, your dog is your dog, you can not equate it to anyone elses dog since they are not the same.
> 
> As for the IPO TWIT? Hes a TWIT, ignore him. Worst advice you could have ever gotten in your life and trust you to follow it! Its stupid advice, it has no bearing on anything and you should NOT follow it. You support your pup in anything it does, be it at home or on the field. Letting it figure out things for itself without any feedback or affection from its owner will only turn your dog into a problem with 4 legs. You IPO guy is an idiot.


trust me i get your point that all pups are different but there surely is some general guidelines to follow that are modified to suit the dog... SURELY


----------



## Alice Bezemer

Michael Murphy said:


> trust me i get your point that all pups are different but there surely is some general guidelines to follow that are modified to suit the dog... SURELY



General guidelines:

Look at your pup and use what she gives you to work with, keep it short and sweet in whatever you do so as not to take away the fun in it. Anything taught to the pup in play is a large bonus for the future since it means needing less pressure to get the dog to perform any required behaviour. This goes for any and every training aspect of the working dog. You can do any and everything with your pup but keep it short and sweet and fun for now. And yes the pup can bite but be smart about it, not to long, not to often. If teething then let her pick the bites herself. Having a dog on a puppy sleeve or rag is pressure and she will bite to please YOU, letting her bite her rags and toys by herself is pleasing herself, she can pick the moment to let go because of discomfort and she will not associate it with any training.


----------



## Marcel Winter

Michael Murphy said:


> thanks Marcel,
> 
> are you including working with tugs and rags in bitework as well? are you doing frustration work or throwing a ball around at the moment? Also do you tie the pup out for most of the day and only engage with it during work time? cause at the moment im letting my pup stay with me all the time in the house and do watever, i think i might be being too affectionate as well :???:



No I,m doing not frustration work and crazy things its important to let you,re dog a puppy , socializing
take him to train stations ,bus stations, go to many differnent places don,t let him play too long with other dogs
because the bones are sensitive, and let the pup sleep what he needs that in a bench. I see too many crazy videos of pups young age and many young dogs gonna destroyed take your time.

I,m only doing some tracking games,obdience, bark on the box,retrieving keys,metall and let him socialize and playing with other dogs. and go to a lot different places and some other training fields and only
let the pup watching. and make some fun.

I,m lucky my pup is very calm and relax at home when I,m take him to the club he gonna switch he likes action

Marcel


----------



## Matt Vandart

rick smith said:


> Matt
> - what you posted is the RESULT
> - i don't really care if the dog becomes neutral or not; i'm not trying to change its genetics
> 
> - what i started to explain very briefly was a totally different PROCESS for getting that result than what i have seen and read about "socializing" a dog, and why i think the word is misleading to begin with
> 
> getting the new dog "out and about" to meet the world and be exposed is often done before the owner has developed the minimum focus and control necessary and instead it becomes a test to see how close one can come before the dog "reacts", whether it's with people places or things.
> 
> i do NOT do it that way ... all i do is keep control of the dog when it is out so that the environment becomes secondary to its focus on me
> 
> hard to say it in words, but i'll give you the example i used to describe a test in my post.
> - if the dog can't give you steady eye contact when you tell it to, in a familiar, conflict free area, i doubt you will have much success when any distraction is present, no matter how close or far away ... and vice versa
> 
> iow, work more on control FIRST before ever taking the dog out, and this step is often overlooked. instead, people think the more the dog can absorb outside the better it gets "socialized". then they become a presenter and let the dog look all over the place. i do it the opposite way. i do MORE focus drills to keep the dog's eyes ears and nose from wandering when out. "I" bring the dog to people rather than allow the dog to approach people on its own terms, even if i think it is comfortable.
> - with aggressive dogs this is necessary an a no brainer but it's just as effective for any type of dog
> 
> "getting a neutral dog" is NOT the process i was starting to discuss, and there is a lot more to it, getting more control of your dog was the process
> 
> - i only brought it up now cause the OP brought it up, by giving a typical example of what i don't recommend
> 
> bottom line : your summary label was correct, but i'm talking about a totally different way to get there


Chill Winston! lol

what I posted was a question, the clue is in the question mark at the end :mrgreen:
I ain't gonna argue with you dude, I implemented all your advice and that of others and now I have a fab time out and about with Sali.
Listen to this guy Micheal, lol, and the others, not just Alice (no offence Alice) there are plenty of people with the knowledge you need posting right now on this thread, take heed.
Also relax guy, that is the best thing you could do with your pup right now.


----------



## Michael Murphy

Marcel Winter said:


> No I,m doing not frustration work and crazy things its important to let you,re dog a puppy , socializing
> take him to train stations ,bus stations, go to many differnent places don,t let him play too long with other dogs
> because the bones are sensitive, and let the pup sleep what he needs that in a bench. I see too many crazy videos of pups young age and many young dogs gonna destroyed take your time.
> 
> I,m only doing some tracking games,obdience, bark on the box,retrieving keys,metall and let him socialize and playing with other dogs. and go to a lot different places and some other training fields and only
> let the pup watching. and make some fun.
> 
> I,m lucky my pup is very calm and relax at home when I,m take him to the club he gonna switch he likes action
> 
> Marcel


at what age do you start barking on box and how do you do it lol?
and at what age do ou take the pup to watch other dogs work and what benefits does the pup get from it?


----------



## Matt Vandart

Alice Bezemer said:


> General guidelines:
> 
> *Look at your pup and use what she gives you to work with*, keep it short and sweet in whatever you do so as not to take away the fun in it. Anything taught to the pup in play is a large bonus for the future since it means needing less pressure to get the dog to perform any required behaviour. This goes for any and every training aspect of the working dog. You can do any and everything with your pup but keep it short and sweet and fun for now. And yes the pup can bite but be smart about it, not to long, not to often. If teething then let her pick the bites herself. Having a dog on a puppy sleeve or rag is pressure and she will bite to please YOU, letting her bite her rags and toys by herself is pleasing herself, she can pick the moment to let go because of discomfort and she will not associate it with any training.


There is a chance that he isn't 'seeing anything' because that takes experience.
There have been plenty of posts of 'general guidelines' in this thread dude. I think there are three on this page alone.


----------



## Marcel Winter

Michael Murphy said:


> at what age do you start barking on box and how do you do it lol?
> and at what age do ou take the pup to watch other dogs work and what benefits does the pup get from it?



This puppy is very easy barker , I start with 3 monts playfull you need something he got crazy about
food, ball,keys you put it in your hands behind your back most of time the pup want that ball or food
and became to bark ,when he does you reward him quickly with the ball,food or keys whatever make it playfull not too long 1,2 barks 3 barks etc.and make a command . Not all the pups are easy barkers depends on the dog.But there are many different ways to learn.

When the pup understand the command barking I put him on the box when he doing well I reward him
this puppy of mine is crazy from the box and barking it,s easy to train also it depends on the puppy, and remember
always palyfull and have patient not today good then try tommorow again timng of good rewarding is important.

This pup was watching other dogs @ 10 weeks old but not too long , last saturday he was watching for 1 hour and put him in my car some rest later I put him again to the pole.

Good luck Marcel​


----------



## Marcel Winter

You can find him here:

www.bloedlijnen.nl/?=BRN22819


----------



## rick smith

Matt
Winston ????
tx for the concern for my BP, but it's fine ... don't misinterpret details for frustration //rotflmao//

Michael 
i can read you like a book 
i KNEW that box advice comment get another immediate question 
you remind me of a race horse with blinders 
i sure hope your pup doesn't lose a tooth prematurely 

this thread has everything i expected and i am in a REALLY good mood these days since i won the lottery (in a manner of speaking)

//rotflmao//


----------



## Michael Murphy

Marcel Winter said:


> This puppy is very easy barker , I start with 3 monts playfull you need something he got crazy about
> food, ball,keys you put it in your hands behind your back most of time the pup want that ball or food
> and became to bark ,when he does you reward him quickly with the ball,food or keys whatever make it playfull not too long 1,2 barks 3 barks etc.and make a command . Not all the pups are easy barkers depends on the dog.But there are many different ways to learn.
> 
> When the pup understand the command barking I put him on the box when he doing well I reward him
> this puppy of mine is crazy from the box and barking it,s easy to train also it depends on the puppy, and remember
> always palyfull and have patient not today good then try tommorow again timng of good rewarding is important.
> 
> This pup was watching other dogs @ 10 weeks old but not too long , last saturday he was watching for 1 hour and put him in my car some rest later I put him again to the pole.
> 
> Good luck Marcel​


thanks Marcel, thats exactly the information i was looking for! 

also what exactly do you believe the pup learns from watching other dogs?


----------



## Michael Murphy

Marcel Winter said:


> You can find him here:
> 
> www.bloedlijnen.nl/?=BRN22819


very interesting lines, i recognise the rambo, tommy, rocky , breston massop but not much of the others. that rudo looks interesting.


----------



## Michael Murphy

also are you drawn more to a certain line ?


----------



## David Baker

rick smith said:


> Matt
> Winston ????
> tx for the concern for my BP, but it's fine ... don't misinterpret details for frustration //rotflmao//
> 
> Michael
> *i can read you like a book *
> *i KNEW that box advice comment get another immediate question*
> you remind me of a race horse with blinders
> i sure hope your pup doesn't lose a tooth prematurely
> 
> this thread has everything i expected and i am in a REALLY good mood these days since i won the lottery (in a manner of speaking)
> 
> //rotflmao//


 
LoL, you took the words out of my mouth. hahha, as soon as I read the post about the box, I said to myself "here we go" lol. Can't blame the guy. He's excited. I hope Michael didn't miss my post a couple pages back. 

Michael, 
As far as "at what age should I do this, or do that" goes, you don't need to ask that here. You need to ask that question at whatever club or kennel you decide to train at. As long as they are a reputable trainer that isn't an idiot. B/c regardless if we see a video here or there, the trainer will be there with the dog a lot longer than a video and could probably catch some things that your pup does that you cannot see in a video. Questions about HOW to train something would be appropriate to ask on a message board, but going along with what Alice said, one would need to literally have eyes on the dog and actually know dogs to be able to determine when something should be taught. 90% of your questions need to be answered by a trainer. And damn, you JUST got the puppy. Enjoy playing with the puppy just like you would if it were a non working dog, b/c ITS STILL A PUPPY. Ya know? You don't have to play with an agenda right now. During that play, she will show you some things about herself. Capitalize on those things at a later time.


----------



## Alice Bezemer

8-[


----------



## Catherine Gervin

Alice Bezemer said:


> 8-[


does anybody here read Gary Larson's "Far Side" books? there's one comic of a guy sitting at a dinner table with a hook replacing one of his hands and beside the table is a Grizzly eating out of a gigantic dog dish. the caption says something approximating "So we have two rules--she don't climb up on the bed at night, and I don't take her food bowl away 'til she's done eating" and it's fair to say that i am totally butchering the perfection of the wording, but this actual photo made me think of it and laugh before my second cup of coffee.
on another matter, i feel staggering empathy for the OP because you see all these incredible videos on YouTube of 10 week old Mals splitting atoms and taking down crime rings--those Indian gentlemen posted a few weeks back who train anti-terrorism dogs, with the various feats accomplished at various ages...it was INCREDIBLE and you can easily get sucked into that "my dog can do all of that and this" fever pitch. for some reason i am immune to that competitive horn tooting in regards to my little girl because i can see her whole life filled with social and academic pressures and feel no need to start inundating her with those firing squads now, at four and a half years. when i finally got my GSD and saw all these astounding Mal puppies and their fast track performances i did get jealous--my puppy was 4 1/2 months old, but i had just brought her home. was i really that far behind? would we ever catch up? should we start on a sleeve or obedience drilling? thank goodness i had a very amused breeder to tell me what revealed itself to be obvious after he said it--that i had a German Shepherd, and they mature very differently than Malinois, and that i had just gotten my puppy, there was no hurry, i had the entire rest of her life to work with her. i realize this guy just got his dream Malinois and he's understandably chomping at the bit, but he has lots and lots of time, and being patient is something that puppy can feel and will be all the better for, i'm sure.


----------



## Alice Bezemer

Video's and Photographs of Million dollar pups are the worst thing out there. They show a single moment in time that does not represent the truth of what the pup is. One simply takes the best shot, the most interesting one, the fiercest one and posts it but the thing is, the other 99.99 % of the time is completely absent in that shot or video. It tells you absolutely nothing! It just makes a good showing and that is all. 

Do not be fooled by what you see other pups do on youtube or photobucket. Its a snapshot and not a complete picture.....People often forget that no one willingly posts their problems and mistakes on any sort of media for the world to look at and trust me they have a lot more of that then the 1.06 minutes of a pup biting the rag or puppysleeve.

Get of the idea that your dog has to look like what you have seen somewhere else, it has to look like what she is, not represent the idea of what you think she should look like.

As for the picture posted? It made me think of Michael :lol: If he keeps equating his pup to things he sees elsewhere I fear that this is the sort of picture he will get for his future.


----------



## Catherine Gervin

Alice Bezemer said:


> Video's and Photographs of Million dollar pups are the worst thing out there. They show a single moment in time that does not represent the truth of what the pup is. One simply takes the best shot, the most interesting one, the fiercest one and posts it but the thing is, the other 99.99 % of the time is completely absent in that shot or video. It tells you absolutely nothing! It just makes a good showing and that is all.
> 
> Do not be fooled by what you see other pups do on youtube or photobucket. Its a snapshot and not a complete picture.....People often forget that no one willingly posts their problems and mistakes on any sort of media for the world to look at and trust me they have a lot more of that then the 1.06 minutes of a pup biting the rag or puppysleeve.
> 
> Get of the idea that your dog has to look like what you have seen somewhere else, it has to look like what she is, not represent the idea of what you think she should look like.
> 
> As for the picture posted? It made me think of Michael :lol: If he keeps equating his pup to things he sees elsewhere I fear that this is the sort of picture he will get for his future.


it is kind of you to point out that there are probably hundreds of missteps en route to those blips of perfection--mostly i just figure those dogs are in more capable hands than my dog is...i've had a Corgi, a Labrador, and a Pit Bull and those are the only dogs of my own that i've ever trained. my girl has a novice at the other end of her leash, so it is certainly going to take us longer to get where we're going, but i am SUPER excited to receive some training classes for Christmas. thank goodness for the experienced dog people!!


----------



## Haz Othman

Lol Alice.
Incidentally what Mike said about the IPO guy is not uncommon. At my club the TD often says the best IPO dogs are the ones that live in a run and only come out for IPO. Several at the club practise this and I know its common in other parts of the IPO community. I will never do that simply because I want more from the dog then IPO but its nothing new to hear.



Alice Bezemer said:


> 8-[


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

I'm about like Alice reading this. You say you understand that they are different but you don't seem to be grasping that its about reading the pup in front of you. Besides that, you have Chris Jones as the breeder. He breeds them, raises them and works them. Are other comments really needed given that resource. Forget the comparisons and other dogs/puppies and study the one in front of you and try to make the right choices. The rest is just penis measuring--totally unproductive.

T


----------



## Matt Vandart

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> I'm about like Alice reading this. You say you understand that they are different but you don't seem to be grasping that its about reading the pup in front of you. Besides that, you have Chris Jones as the breeder. He breeds them, raises them and works them. Are other comments really needed given that resource. Forget the comparisons and other dogs/puppies and study the one in front of you and try to make the right choices. *The rest is just penis measuring*--totally unproductive.
> 
> T


Bwahahahahahahaha! AWESOME!


----------



## maggie fraser

Does your new knpv pup have a name yet ?


----------



## Marcel Winter

Michael Murphy said:


> thanks Marcel, thats exactly the information i was looking for!
> 
> also what exactly do you believe the pup learns from watching other dogs?



I let him look the bitework exercises stick attack,bicycle, gunshot etc I like to see how he react
yo all this action the young dogs get some strong drives to the helper also it make the dogs some stronger all this time at the pole.


----------



## Alex McDonald

Congrats on the pup Michael! 

Hope you are taking all this great info on board.
My biggest recommendation to you would be to join a club ASAP.

have fun with her!


----------



## Maureen A Osborn

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> I'm about like Alice reading this. You say you understand that they are different but you don't seem to be grasping that its about reading the pup in front of you. Besides that, you have Chris Jones as the breeder. He breeds them, raises them and works them. Are other comments really needed given that resource. Forget the comparisons and other dogs/puppies and study the one in front of you and try to make the right choices. The rest is just penis measuring--totally unproductive.
> 
> T


 YEP, one of the best things in this thread!


----------



## susan tuck

Guys just tell him congrats on the pup, and move on, if you haven't figured it out by now, Michael only wants input from a few members and politely but studiously ignores everyone else.
:roll:


----------



## Maureen A Osborn

Michael, this guy wrote one of the training books I have, he trains police dogs in the Netherlands

http://dickstaal.com/

I also highly recommend Michael Ellis stuff.


----------



## Joby Becker

if you have no clue what you should be doing, or what you ARE doing, dont know why you are doing it, don;'t know why you should or shouldnt do it, then dont do it.

then even if you are pretty sure know what needs to be done, but you havent a clue how to actually do it, don't do it.

8 weeks 8 months or 2 years....unless you are competititve time table or looking to sell the dog as a young adult, doesn't matter all that much.

Slow Moe is just about 10 months, hasn't seen a suit or a sleeve yet...well not true I did SHOW her some sleeves..


----------



## Michael Murphy

susan tuck said:


> Guys just tell him congrats on the pup, and move on, if you haven't figured it out by now, Michael only wants input from a few members and politely but studiously ignores everyone else.
> :roll:


thats not fair, i only singled out ppl that have knpv experience cause thats the bloodlines the pup is from, if i had a bitch out of pike i would have been asking tiago etc 
i appreciate all advice


----------



## susan tuck

Michael Murphy said:


> thats not fair, i only singled out ppl that have knpv experience cause thats the bloodlines the pup is from, if i had a bitch out of pike i would have been asking tiago etc
> i appreciate all advice


I did say you were polite about it! I wouldn't have mentioned it if I hadn't noticed a trend based on most of your other threads. But it's OK, who you choose to acknowledge or ignore is completely your own prerogative.


----------



## Zakia Days

Alice Bezemer said:


> Jary x Beppie. Good lines in both dogs, Michael.
> 
> Any tips from me? :lol: Why am I so special?
> 
> okay... tips....
> 
> I might have one for you... Set aside all preconceived notions about this pup, forget all about drive, nerves and whatever other words people love to use... Let it be a pup, let her grow up and have fun with her. Work with what she SHOWS you! Do not push or pull in order to get out of her what you feel SHOULD be there to begin with. She will show you what she is capable of if you give her the space to do so. Stepping into this pup thing with any notions of what drives she SHOULD have is the wrong way to go about things. You post shows you are already on the wrong path... She is from good lines, give her the chance to show you what she has and be smart and patient with that.
> 
> I guess my best tip is : Don't be stupid with her! It is incredibly easy to ruin her if you stick to the wrong ideas of what you think she should be as opposed to what she really is. She will be, in a large part, what you make of her....


 
I didn't read all the posts here, cuz I don't have the time, but man do I second this notion!!!! :mrgreen:


----------



## Connie Sutherland

Michael Murphy said:


> thats not fair, *i only singled out ppl that have knpv experience cause thats the bloodlines the pup is from* ...


And then you ignore them too?

Because that's what I see in your replies.



This is what people (the ones you ignore and the ones you ignore even more) are trying hard to tell you:

_"90% of your questions need to be answered by a trainer. And damn, you JUST got the puppy. Enjoy playing with the puppy just like you would if it were a non working dog, b/c ITS STILL A PUPPY. Ya know? You don't have to play with an agenda right now. During that play, she will show you some things about herself. Capitalize on those things at a later time."
_

_"Set aside all preconceived notions about this pup, forget all about drive, nerves and whatever other words people love to use... Let it be a pup, let her grow up and have fun with her. Work with what she SHOWS you! Do not push or pull in order to get out of her what you feel SHOULD be there to begin with. She will show you what she is capable of if you give her the space to do so. Stepping into this pup thing with any notions of what drives she SHOULD have is the wrong way to go about things. Your post shows you are already on the wrong path... She is from good lines, give her the chance to show you what she has and be smart and patient with that. ... I guess my best tip is : Don't be stupid with her! It is incredibly easy to ruin her if you stick to the wrong ideas of what you think she should be as opposed to what she really is."
_
_
"... take her to a sport club, and that would be what I recommend to you"_


You have a chance right now to show a whole lot of people that you can learn.

I believe that everyone wants you to prove them wrong about this: _"Your post shows you are already on the wrong path."_


----------



## David Baker

^ "like button"


----------



## rick smith

since Michael has always been just a "bit" preoccupied with "lines", here is a suggestion that should fit in perfectly so he can find out for himself :

1. list everything you should expect to "see" based on your research of this pup's KNPV lines. i KNOW you have thoroughly researched both pedigrees 
2. stick it in an envelope and forget about it, but stow it for safe keeping
3. delete the word KNPV when referring to you pup
4. tell us about your experiences as you raise it and ask questions about what you see .... some raw video every now and them would help
5. in three years open up the envelope and see how it describes your 3yr old

have a blast and enjoy the ride


----------



## Austin Porter

rick smith said:


> since Michael has always been just a "bit" preoccupied with "lines", here is a suggestion that should fit in perfectly so he can find out for himself :
> 
> 1. list everything you should expect to "see" based on your research of this pup's KNPV lines. i KNOW you have thoroughly researched both pedigrees
> 2. stick it in an envelope and forget about it, but stow it for safe keeping
> 3. delete the word KNPV when referring to you pup
> 4. tell us about your experiences as you raise it and ask questions about what you see .... some raw video every now and them would help
> 5. in three years open up the envelope and see how it describes your 3yr old
> 
> have a blast and enjoy the ride


 
Well said Rick.


----------



## Matt Vandart

rick smith said:


> since Michael has always been just a "bit" preoccupied with "lines", here is a suggestion that should fit in perfectly so he can find out for himself :
> 
> 1. list everything you should expect to "see" based on your research of this pup's KNPV lines. i KNOW you have thoroughly researched both pedigrees
> 2. stick it in an envelope and forget about it, but stow it for safe keeping
> 3. delete the word KNPV when referring to you pup
> 4. tell us about your experiences as you raise it and ask questions about what you see .... some raw video every now and them would help
> 5. *in three years open up the envelope and see how it describes your 3yr old *
> have a blast and enjoy the ride


and have a good old chuckle at yourself at the same time....


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

Christopher Jones said:


> Michael, Alice said it pretty well. You need to show her things and teach her what you want her to be. Look at things as learning experiences, not testing experiences. Try and look for things to make her stronger, not for things thay may undo her. Any flog can try and stress a pup out. Build her drive, build her confidence, build her bond and trust with you. Shes 9 weeks of age. Try and keep her social, also would be my advice.
> And take advice from people who know what they are talking about. Good general rule of thumb is avoid people who talk about tough dog this, tough dog that, yet they have no dog of value themselfs. Dont let anyone do stupid shit with your dog. While im sure you want her to protect you, you also owe it to her to protect her.
> If you take her to a sport club, and that would be what I recommend to you, dont talk her up. Egos abound in the dog world and you might get someone who might want to prove your wrong by taking it out on your dog. So no KNPV this, Jary that, better than German Shepherd this, keep it to yourself. Let others tell you how good your dog is. It sounds much better when others talk your dog up than when your doing it.


Paste this on the refrigerator--especially the part about bad ass dog syndrome. 9 weeks old, within 24 hours off the plane??? and shaking on a tug---who cares. It has three years of growing and phasing to do. Don't freak out and think everything that shows up is going to be something for life. All I'd care about right now is 1) house breaking, loading on my marker and getting beyond the phase of where I have to take it out at 6:00 a.m.; 2) foundation obedience; 3) walking on a leash and 4) see experience the world and social neutrality/tolerance/non-reactivity, whatever buzz word you want to use. My guess is that it is bred to bite and that is going to be the last thing I need to concern myself with. I'd spend my time asking Chris his opinion regarding expected developmental phases. He picked the puppy and he's bred the dogs/lines and knows something of the sire/dam, I'm assuming. I don't care about lines and one or two dogs. If you have to ask about the head shaking, that tells me you don't have a feel for her and shouldn't be doing anything with tug and bite work. Don't even touch the bite work/tug aspect of it until you find the right person who knows how to develop/read a DOG--not KNPV, NBVK, IPO, yada, yada, yada. 

Now on the puppy selecting vein and from a breeder perspective, I'd be curious in what Chris saw in the puppy. Also, I think someone asked but in my skimming, never saw a response, did you buy this puppy to develop for a particular sport? If so, what.

T


----------



## Kevin Cyr

Connie Sutherland said:


> And then you ignore them too?
> 
> Because that's what I see in your replies.
> 
> 
> 
> This is what people (the ones you ignore and the ones you ignore even more) are trying hard to tell you:
> 
> _"90% of your questions need to be answered by a trainer. And damn, you JUST got the puppy. Enjoy playing with the puppy just like you would if it were a non working dog, b/c ITS STILL A PUPPY. Ya know? You don't have to play with an agenda right now. During that play, she will show you some things about herself. Capitalize on those things at a later time."_
> 
> 
> _"Set aside all preconceived notions about this pup, forget all about drive, nerves and whatever other words people love to use... Let it be a pup, let her grow up and have fun with her. Work with what she SHOWS you! Do not push or pull in order to get out of her what you feel SHOULD be there to begin with. She will show you what she is capable of if you give her the space to do so. Stepping into this pup thing with any notions of what drives she SHOULD have is the wrong way to go about things. Your post shows you are already on the wrong path... She is from good lines, give her the chance to show you what she has and be smart and patient with that. ... I guess my best tip is : Don't be stupid with her! It is incredibly easy to ruin her if you stick to the wrong ideas of what you think she should be as opposed to what she really is."_
> 
> 
> _"... take her to a sport club, and that would be what I recommend to you"_
> 
> 
> You have a chance right now to show a whole lot of people that you can learn.
> 
> I believe that everyone wants you to prove them wrong about this: _"Your post shows you are already on the wrong path."_


 
they say its never too late....I say IT IS TOO LATE! should of got a pup with the unknown background of lines, etc.....KNVP this and that has ruined his mind....and his pup already


----------



## Michael Murphy

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Paste this on the refrigerator--especially the part about bad ass dog syndrome. 9 weeks old, within 24 hours off the plane??? and shaking on a tug---who cares. It has three years of growing and phasing to do. Don't freak out and think everything that shows up is going to be something for life. All I'd care about right now is 1) house breaking, loading on my marker and getting beyond the phase of where I have to take it out at 6:00 a.m.; 2) foundation obedience; 3) walking on a leash and 4) see experience the world and social neutrality/tolerance/non-reactivity, whatever buzz word you want to use. My guess is that it is bred to bite and that is going to be the last thing I need to concern myself with. I'd spend my time asking Chris his opinion regarding expected developmental phases. He picked the puppy and he's bred the dogs/lines and knows something of the sire/dam, I'm assuming. I don't care about lines and one or two dogs. If you have to ask about the head shaking, that tells me you don't have a feel for her and shouldn't be doing anything with tug and bite work. Don't even touch the bite work/tug aspect of it until you find the right person who knows how to develop/read a DOG--not KNPV, NBVK, IPO, yada, yada, yada.
> 
> *Now on the puppy selecting vein and from a breeder perspective, I'd be curious in what Chris saw in the puppy. Also, I think someone asked but in my skimming, never saw a response, did you buy this puppy to develop for a particular sport? If so, what.
> *
> T


yea i want the answer too, i got it over the phone but things are understood clearer when you can read them

not for a particular sport, just like a hobby dog that i can teach obedience, tracking, box guard, bite on suit and hidden sleeve, and muzzle work, well thats the plan anyways
kind of like ipo, knpv and nvbk mixed together


----------



## rick smith

it is hard not to relate all dogs to each other, and if you think you made a mistake with one it is hard not to keep that in the back of your mind when dealing with the next one since we are, after all, the sum of our experiences.

i'm sure this is a factor at play and it's easy just to say "view all pups as a blank page", etc

but imo, usually the problem is not having the right tools and dog reading skills to begin with. regardless of what the pup or dog is bringing to the table, being able to read dogs correctly to get the most out of them is an acquired skill that takes time. most people are too busy "training" and don't spend enuff time "reading" ](*,)

of course if you get lucky and have someone more skillful than yourself to work with, it happens faster

i remember reading here of people who were basically by themselves trying to develop their dog and had a lot of problems.
- try and surround yourself with professionals and lean from them. hopefully on a face to face basis since a bird in the hand is worth fifteen "online" 
- "joining a club" is great advice IF the club is worth a shit and not just a "club"

but there is certainly nothing wrong in DETAILING your problems online and asking for advice. 
** what i usually read is a lack of those details, and then denial of the handler problem while the dog is getting blamed ](*,)


----------



## rick smith

when i first meet someone i might be training with, i NEVER grab the lead and start doing stuff with their pup or dog, even if they are flailing around trying to get their dog to do something 

and WELL over half the people i meet up with don't even know how to play with their dog in an interactive way. you might think this would never happen but i see it ALL the time, and i am NOT just talking about little ankle biter pets

great example :
a navy family (both american) has a couple chesapeake bay retrievers ... litter mate males ... cool dogs, but totally out of control and had ZERO respect for either owner
- when i asked them to show me how they played :
- out came the ball ... tossed 50yds to let them charge off and fight for who would get it first ... 
- that was all they ever did regarding "interactive play", and they were totally happy with it ](*,)
- they had NEVER worked with either dog on a one to one basis and they wondered why their dogs wouldn't listen to them and constantly "gave them the finger" (owner's description)

and of course, they had "been around dogs all their life" ](*,)](*,)


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

Michael Murphy said:


> yea i want the answer too, i got it over the phone but things are understood clearer when you can read them
> 
> not for a particular sport, just like a hobby dog that i can teach obedience, tracking, box guard, bite on suit and hidden sleeve, and muzzle work, well thats the plan anyways
> kind of like ipo, knpv and nvbk mixed together


Its hard for me to envision you mixing those together but sounds like you just want to play around with different protection sport concepts. I hope you didn't buy a pup and have the breeder ship it to you and you didn't have the utmost clear understanding of why he picked that particular puppy for you. Like I said, I was just sorta curious but sounds like you ought to shoot Chris a private email for general guidance stuff on raising the puppy given what he saw in the whelping box and what you want to do. The breeder can only do so much. Old school was that if you weren't going to train bite work correctly through completion with all the control elements, don't start it. Hope you have the local talent for that.

T


----------



## Michael Murphy




----------



## Michael Murphy

i tried to post some photos of my pup here but failed, if your curious how the pup looks like i posted it in the photos section of forum under jary bergorst daughter


----------



## Alice Bezemer

Michael Murphy said:


> i tried to post some photos of my pup here but failed, if your curious how the pup looks like i posted it in the photos section of forum under jary bergorst daughter


She's a cute looking thing. Very nice pup you have there Michael.


----------



## Gillian Schuler

rick smith said:


> it is hard not to relate all dogs to each other, and if you think you made a mistake with one it is hard not to keep that in the back of your mind when dealing with the next one since we are, after all, the sum of our experiences.
> 
> i'm sure this is a factor at play and it's easy just to say "view all pups as a blank page", etc
> 
> but imo, usually the problem is not having the right tools and dog reading skills to begin with. regardless of what the pup or dog is bringing to the table, being able to read dogs correctly to get the most out of them is an acquired skill that takes time. most people are too busy "training" and don't spend enuff time "reading" ](*,)
> 
> of course if you get lucky and have someone more skillful than yourself to work with, it happens faster
> 
> i remember reading here of people who were basically by themselves trying to develop their dog and had a lot of problems.
> - try and surround yourself with professionals and lean from them. hopefully on a face to face basis since a bird in the hand is worth fifteen "online"
> - "joining a club" is great advice IF the club is worth a shit and not just a "club"
> 
> but there is certainly nothing wrong in DETAILING your problems online and asking for advice.
> ** what i usually read is a lack of those details, and then denial of the handler problem while the dog is getting blamed ](*,)


I don't think that even the right tools are so important. What you say about reading the pup / dog is all important.

Very often this can be done without someone experienced to help you. YOU own the pup and you can observe its behaviour.

If you are thinking of buying a pup, most of you will have read about breeds, sports, et. Or not??

The difference being, the pup / dog is a living creature and deserves more research.
Most perople don't buy a car or a house without checking out the wheres and the wherefores - so why not with a pup / dog.


----------



## Matt Vandart

There you go Michael, seriously cute pup!
We want videos! lol
No seriously vids would be epic.....


----------



## Meg O'Donovan

She's a beaut. Take good care of her and she'll take care of you.


----------



## rick smith

i understand what you saying Gillian, but i happen to think the ability to read a dog correctly is an essential tool unless the dog was just bred to lick faces and lay on laps.

and you can't buy that tool online or at a PetSmart and i don't think anyone should take it for granted that it comes as part of the bonding process either 

maybe the heavy compulsion types would not agree on this point and think it is irrelevant ?


----------



## Matt Vandart

So maybe he will learn with this dog? Probably pretty quickly I would guess.


----------



## Hunter Allred

Christopher Jones said:


> Just be careful about over doing the actual biting part with her and pay more attention to building frustration with her to keep the drive high. Too much of a good thing can reduce your interest. Im sure if I started to pimp my services out to frustrated bikini models every night after a few weeks im proberbly gonna loose some interest. 8-[
> 95% frustration and drive building, 5% actual biting.
> Dont read too much into puppy behaviours like growling or crazy biting/head shaking, as alot these behaviours dissapear as they age. Most of my pups will fly i to me and bite me pretty seriously if i piss them off too much at 8 weeks of age, but this doesnt carry over very much.


I agree with what you said... but, while you can exhaust some drives, like prey, others cannot be exhausted, like defense... I think that natural selection would show us sex drive to be unexhaustable as well... Therefore, I don't think you'd start turning down bikini models :-$


----------



## Christopher Jones

Defense can be exausted. Thats when those defensive dogs go into avoidence.


----------



## Charles Corbitt

Chris can you educate me on the defense drive exhaustion. Helmut Raiser (Der Schutzhund) said in his book that Defense Drive is the one drive that cannot be exhausted, if the dog is in true defense drive he is in a fight for his life. Maybe I misunderstand the meaning of exhaustion in your statement as the increase of pressure while in defense drive to trigger avoidance. Which is one thing you should never do in training.
Thanks


----------



## Joby Becker

the instinct to protect ones self (defense drive) does not exhaust, once the methods the dog is using are not successful he will find a successful behavior for him that negates the threat or whatever, which could be turning tail and running to safety..

so in that regard the dogs defense drive does not exhaust, he still has the desire to "defend" himself...

What happens is his attempts to use force and active behaviors in defense exhaust...he thenmay choose other behaviors that work for him..

I'm not answering for Chris here, but I dont think he is talking about dogs bailing in training because of bad training.


----------



## Charles Corbitt

Thanks Joby, that makes sense to me.


----------



## Christopher Jones

So let me get this straight? People think all dogs that are working in pure defense will fight to their death? That the fight/flight response does not come in the equation and a dog with little courage and suspect nerves will continue to fight until he is basically dead game?


----------



## Connie Sutherland

Christopher Jones said:


> So let me get this straight? People think all dogs that are working in pure defense will fight to their death? That the fight/flight response does not come in the equation and a dog with little courage and suspect nerves will continue to fight until he is basically dead game?



Well, Joby said in #116, a couple of posts up, that _"he will find a successful behavior for him that negates the threat or whatever, which could be turning tail and running to safety."
_


----------



## Maureen A Osborn

Christopher Jones said:


> So let me get this straight? People think all dogs that are working in pure defense will fight to their death? That the fight/flight response does not come in the equation and a dog with little courage and suspect nerves will continue to fight until he is basically dead game?


From my having dogos, which are bred to hunt and fight large,dangerous game...they must stay in the fight, even if mortally wounded...that is not something that can be taught, and it is not defense, it is the pure drive of wanting to overcome and defeat and dominate its adversary...one might call it that forward aggression that some of the herders have, esp those from lines of Arko Kikkert....its not defense at all, it is the drive to overpower and dominate at any cost. A dog fighting in pure defense is like what joby said, and it wont be able to maintain that amount of stress for an extended period of time, whereas it will do whatever it takes to make that stressor stop, let it be tuck tail and run or kill its adversary...but it is not doing so like a true forward aggressive dog would be fighting for, it would be fighting for survival, not to dominate and overpower (if that makes sense).

I know in training, however, that one can teach a dog to work through the stresses of defense drive by switching back to prey, etc...but I know from having dogos, that one cannot test for that "heart" or "game" except in the woods...not sure if it is the same with these lines of work being discussed here. INterested in hearing others thoughts on this.


----------



## Joby Becker

Christopher Jones said:


> So let me get this straight? People think all dogs that are working in pure defense will fight to their death? That the fight/flight response does not come in the equation and a dog with little courage and suspect nerves will continue to fight until he is basically dead game?


not me...flight is very possible defense reaction, especially if other behaviors fail to remove the source of defensive stimulus, if you are talking about self preservation.


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## Christopher Smith

Maureen A Osborn said:


> ....its not defense at all, it is the drive to overpower and dominate at any cost.


It sounds like what I call aggression.


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## rick smith

rather than further defining the "drive", another perspective...??

make an assumption that "defensive drive" is only a split second decision the dog makes when pressured and discuss the subject in terms of pressure and the effect on the dog
as in :
- how it can build up the dog
- how it can **** up a dog
etc etc


----------



## Joby Becker

rick smith said:


> rather than further defining the "drive", another perspective...??
> 
> make an assumption that "defensive drive" is only a split second decision the dog makes when pressured and discuss the subject in terms of pressure and the effect on the dog
> as in :
> - how it can build up the dog
> - how it can **** up a dog
> etc etc


are we talking in training? or for real? (addition) although I suppose if a dog is in straight SELF defense, he views it as real....carry on, sorry for the interruption


----------



## Michael Murphy

Maureen A Osborn said:


> From my having dogos, which are bred to hunt and fight large,dangerous game...they must stay in the fight, even if mortally wounded...that is not something that can be taught, and it is not defense, it is the pure drive of wanting to overcome and defeat and dominate its adversary...one might call it that forward aggression that some of the herders have, esp those from lines of Arko Kikkert....its not defense at all, it is the drive to overpower and dominate at any cost. A dog fighting in pure defense is like what joby said, and it wont be able to maintain that amount of stress for an extended period of time, whereas it will do whatever it takes to make that stressor stop, let it be tuck tail and run or kill its adversary...but it is not doing so like a true forward aggressive dog would be fighting for, it would be fighting for survival, not to dominate and overpower (if that makes sense).
> 
> I know in training, however, that one can teach a dog to work through the stresses of defense drive by switching back to prey, etc...but I know from having dogos, that one cannot test for that "heart" or "game" except in the woods...not sure if it is the same with these lines of work being discussed here. INterested in hearing others thoughts on this.


Maureen,
how does your dutch shepherd (assuming out of arko?) compare to you bull breeds (from photos assuming you have a american bulldog and a dogo?)
comparing bite work, guarding instinct and hunt drive ( not obedience, assuming the dutchy has quicker sharper obedience , as it was bred for this reason)
also when it comes to american bulldogs do the boar hunting lines differ from the lines being bred (by the minority) for sport work


----------



## Christopher Jones

Joby Becker said:


> not me...flight is very possible defense reaction, especially if other behaviors fail to remove the source of defensive stimulus, if you are talking about self preservation.


I agree. The instinct for survival and self preservation are of course not going to extinguish, unless your one of those cookee animals like Lemmings or Dolphins and Whales who basically commit suicide. However that is quite different to thinking a dog biting through defense isnt going to quit if he doesnt like his chances of winning.


----------



## Maureen A Osborn

Yea Chris, some call it aggression, some call it fight drive (which I prefer, since some mislabel all aggression as fear based, when it isnt always the case). 
Michael, hmm, lets see, besides much easier to teach OB to....DS vs bully breeds....DS aggression is directed at manthe bullies I have had its towards 4 leggeds (even though there are quite a few AB lines out there that are man aggressive, my AB was not, but would bite a sleeve for fun.) My bullies see the sleeve or the suit as pretty much a game in prey...although my male dogo did show me while out in Pittsburgh hotel that he would defend me against an oncoming drunken person at night, at end of leash tail up and growling, did not have to bite, guy took that pretty seriously and backed off. Both have high hunt drives, but again for different things....DS will hunt for ball or tug when my bullies could care less...but if there was a mouse, squirrel, rabbit, etc, they were looking for, they dont give up...my AB bout ripped the gutter off my house when a chipmunk went up and hid in it. I have heard of some AB lines being able to do both true man work and hunting, but I have not personallty seen it. I have one dogo female that is aggressive towards people, but it is fear based. She does not like new people, or new surroundings, is very uncomfortable and does not recover at all from the stressors, no matter how much desensitizing I did.


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## Michael Murphy

just did my last rag biting session with my bitch, she will start teething soon, so im going to leave the tugging untill that stops.
progress so far, she bites awesome (full grip) really hard, does not like it when u try get her off, starts growling and shaking her head cause she knows she might lose it, if im holding her collar with one hand and the rag in another to build frustration she will turn and bite me ( pretty hard) to make me let go, i was so close to smacking her in the head 
im trying to build her ball drive, if it stops rolling before she is close to it, she loses interest and comes back, but in her defense i only threw the ball around like 3 times so far, will start working on that.
she is really smart so obedience is coming easy ( smartest dog i have had since my cattle dog, still trying to decide which one is smarter)

might be a stupid question but she is a puller , i want her to be a pusher, how and when do u start training this?

also walking her is a bitch, she wants to chase every freaking car , im worried shes going to hurt herself, hits the end of the leash and freakish speeds for a 3 month old puppy


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## Michael Murphy

also i think i know how to describe knpv malinois to ppl that havent owned one now, well my jary berghorst daughter anyway,
if you crossed a pitbull, greyhound and a cat = my female

bites/drives like a pitbull
body like a greyhound ( really really flexible spine, nice long legs ( love the fact that the back legs are so much longer then the front, no curve back like a gsd) slim build)
moves , climbs, jumps like a cat

also at 12 weeks she was 6.6 kg, what size do you all think she will end up?


----------



## Joby Becker

Michael Murphy said:


> just did my last rag biting session with my bitch, she will start teething soon, so im going to leave the tugging untill that stops.
> progress so far, she bites awesome (full grip) really hard, does not like it when u try get her off, starts growling and shaking her head cause she knows she might lose it, if im holding her collar with one hand and the rag in another to build frustration she will turn and bite me ( pretty hard) to make me let go, i was so close to smacking her in the head
> im trying to build her ball drive, if it stops rolling before she is close to it, she loses interest and comes back, but in her defense i only threw the ball around like 3 times so far, will start working on that.
> she is really smart so obedience is coming easy ( smartest dog i have had since my cattle dog, still trying to decide which one is smarter)
> 
> might be a stupid question but she is a puller , i want her to be a pusher, how and when do u start training this?
> 
> also walking her is a bitch, she wants to chase every freaking car , im worried shes going to hurt herself, hits the end of the leash and freakish speeds for a 3 month old puppy


how are you trying to get her off of toys?

use a shorter leash if pup is hitting end of leash that hard, lol...

stop encouraging pulling, and start encouraging pushing if that is what you want.


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## Christopher Jones

Michael, the best videos of what to do with young pups are in my mind the ones that are put up by Jao and Martine with their own dogs. Watch as many of those as you can. 
As Joby said, start rewarding the behavior that you want to see (pushing) and she will learn to do it more. Normally you would start by moving backwards so the pup has to move forward to keep biting, and you progress it from there.


----------



## Matt Vandart

6.6kg is slightly lighter than my 12 week old mal bitch.
Chris, could you link to one of these vid please? Are they on YouTube, I'm interested to see.


----------



## Michael Murphy

Christopher Jones said:


> Michael, the best videos of what to do with young pups are in my mind the ones that are put up by Jao and Martine with their own dogs. Watch as many of those as you can.
> As Joby said, start rewarding the behavior that you want to see (pushing) and she will learn to do it more. Normally you would start by moving backwards so the pup has to move forward to keep biting, and you progress it from there.


 
moving backwards, so simple , cant believe it never came to mind


----------



## Michael Murphy

Joby Becker said:


> how are you trying to get her off of toys?
> 
> use a shorter leash if pup is hitting end of leash that hard, lol...
> 
> stop encouraging pulling, and start encouraging pushing if that is what you want.


i get her off the toy by either distracting her (usually with another toy) or choking her off sometimes (but not always, i also do fake choke offs so she doesnt just let go when i pull her collar, austin taught me that)
i also like to try open her mouth with my hands a bit, not to try and take it off her but i find this actually makes her bite down harder and shake her head and growl a bit, which i like :roll: ( rarely tho, not all the time)
actually trying to get her off my pants is actually a lot harder, she actually starts coughing and almost passes out before she lets go (when i choke her off)

there is a huge difference between this pup and my gsd, at 3 months this pup has the same drive and energy level my gsd had at 18 months


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## Christopher Jones

Matt Vandart said:


> 6.6kg is slightly lighter than my 12 week old mal bitch.
> Chris, could you link to one of these vid please? Are they on YouTube, I'm interested to see.


http://m.youtube.com/user/workingmalinois
This is their channel.


----------



## Christopher Jones

Michael Murphy said:


> there is a huge difference between this pup and my gsd, at 3 months this pup has the same drive and energy level my gsd had at 18 months


After hearing what you said about your 18 months old GSD I would have hoped she had alot more drive than him, even at 3 months of age. Lol


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## rick smith

Michael
curious here

why do you pull her mouth open a bit with your hands, and why do you like the head shaking and growling when you do it ??
- without seeing it, that would seem like adding conflict and getting a negative response from the pup while doing so


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## Michael Murphy

rick smith said:


> Michael
> curious here
> 
> why do you pull her mouth open a bit with your hands, and why do you like the head shaking and growling when you do it ??
> - without seeing it, that would seem like adding conflict and getting a negative response from the pup while doing so


i dont actually open the mouth at all, i just make it seem like i am (mainly just touch around her mouth) i noticed when i do it she bites even harder, the shaking is what she does to win the tug quicker if she thinks she might lose it. all in all seems like it builds more drive and a harder bite, i have never done it before just noticed by accident
the only time i opened her mouth was a couple of times when she was about 10 weeks when she kept hooking on to my mother and wouldnt let go, she broke her skin a few times, lucky she had some thick jeans on.


----------



## Alice Bezemer

Michael Murphy said:


> i dont actually open the mouth at all, i just make it seem like i am (mainly just touch around her mouth) i noticed when i do it she bites even harder, the shaking is what she does to win the tug quicker if she thinks she might lose it. all in all seems like it builds more drive and a harder bite, i have never done it before just noticed by accident
> the only time i opened her mouth was a couple of times when she was about 10 weeks when she kept hooking on to my mother and wouldnt let go, she broke her skin a few times, lucky she had some thick jeans on.


Choke her off at 3 months old? You do NOT choke off a pup at 3 months age Michael! Or do you want her to create health issues in the future? If you want her to have Laryngeal paralasys when she grows up then by all means...choke away! I am by NO means a softhanded trainer and am quite willing and capable to use hard measures to get a pup to do what I want or what is needed... and I am not talking pussy slaps here. Do the crime, pay the time! And they pay HARD in this house. But I NEVER do STUPID things... You tho? I just want to choke you off that pup right now and find it a good sensible owner that wont ruin the poor thing....

You want her to release an object or get her of the bite then you stick your finger into her cheek and her cheek into her back mollars and she wil let go pretty quick. You do this while giving the command OUT! Do this several times and she will start outing for you in a timely fashion and on command. Do not fiddle around with your fingers around her mouth because she will at some point let go of whatever she is holding and get you on the fingers (serves you right as well!) 

Now, lets play a game and see if you have any common sense?

Lets say your dog bites a rag. You **** around in her mouth area with your fingers and she growls and starts shaking the rag.

What does this do for her?

a. creates more drive and will to bite.
b. creates frustration and anger.

Next question. Regardless of what option you choose do you think that this is:

a. a good thing
b. a bad thing

last question...

Why do you think it is a Good or Bad thing?


Be carefull what you wish for Michael, you may get it, be unable to deal with it or handle it and have to find a new for it that has to clean up all the mistakes you made in your insidious quest for "That Beast of a Dog."


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## David Baker

Alice Bezemer said:


> Choke her off at 3 months old? You do NOT choke off a pup at 3 months age Michael! Or do you want her to create health issues in the future? If you want her to have Laryngeal paralasys when she grows up then by all means...choke away! I am by NO means a softhanded trainer and am quite willing and capable to use hard measures to get a pup to do what I want or what is needed... and I am not talking pussy slaps here. Do the crime, pay the time! And they pay HARD in this house. But I NEVER do STUPID things... *You tho? I just want to choke you off that pup right now and find it a good sensible owner that wont ruin the poor thing....*
> 
> You want her to release an object or get her of the bite then you stick your finger into her cheek and her cheek into her back mollars and she wil let go pretty quick. You do this while giving the command OUT! Do this several times and she will start outing for you in a timely fashion and on command. Do not fiddle around with your fingers around her mouth because she will at some point let go of whatever she is holding and get you on the fingers (serves you right as well!)
> 
> Now, lets play a game and see if you have any common sense?
> 
> Lets say your dog bites a rag. You **** around in her mouth area with your fingers and she growls and starts shaking the rag.
> 
> What does this do for her?
> 
> a. creates more drive and will to bite.
> b. creates frustration and anger.
> 
> Next question. Regardless of what option you choose do you think that this is:
> 
> a. a good thing
> b. a bad thing
> 
> last question...
> 
> Why do you think it is a Good or Bad thing?
> 
> 
> Be carefull what you wish for Michael, you may get it, be unable to deal with it or handle it and have to find a new for it that has to clean up all the mistakes you made in your insidious quest for "That Beast of a Dog."


 
Ok, that actually made me laugh out loud, sitting in my office by myself. LoL.


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## David Ruby

Michael, why don't you just go to your local club? There is a local SchH/IPO club in your city if I read correctly. They can teach you this stuff and more in short order. I am not saying this as some Internet Expert, however there are some pretty apparent mistakes you are making. All somebody on the Internet can do is read what you are doing, deconstruct it based on limited information, process it, tell you what they have/would do, and hope that A) nothing was lost along the way in the communication, which seems unlikely, and B) both parties know what they are talking about & describing, and C) that you actually take the advice and incorporate it correctly, if at all. Because, if there is any miscommunication, poor advice (in general, or to your situation), or misapplication of said advice, you could just be compounding a problem that a decent trainer with a basic framework of knowledge could show you and clear up for you in a couple of minutes. At absolute best, getting advice from a forum about this is pretty much reactive advice. Through a curtain. Time-delayed.

One example to sort of illustrate my point: getting the dog off the bite. I think at this stage most would view rag work as play and building drive/frustration/excitement. The dog is three months old. You want to make this a blast for the dog. When you are choking the dog off the rag or prying the jaws open, unless you have a plan and know what you are doing (and I would argue waiting until the dog is old enough) is pretty much punishing good behavior. I mean, you want the dog to bite solidly, correct? At this point, what I have seen done is you play tug a/o let the dog have the toy as long as they are biting correctly. You might have a string on it and tug at it so the dog does not just lay down and chew on it, you might keep slight tension or steal it when the dog gets lazy with the bite, then once you have it either give another bite or put it away to build frustration and excitement where the dog is anticipating when you will get the toy again. Instead of rewarding the good biting by letting the dog play and then taking the toy away when it loosens the grip or gets chewy or whatever and redirecting that to something else positive (e.g. excitement for the toy that you channel into another great bite or into frustration you can use later). Even if you just out it like Alice said, what do you do next? How do you use that? When do you out the dog, how do you channel that into a positive with rewarding them, getting into the next bite, etc.? It is not just knowing how to out your pup, it is the whole process of knowing why you are doing it, how, when, and making sure you are doing it as well and conflict-free as possible. And if your dog is biting your mom's jeans or whatever, it helps to sort of know what you are going to do, even if it's pushing the cheeks into the molars, you still want to maybe plan so you can give the dog an option other than just chasing mom's jeans or chewing on her ankles. It could be something as simple as give your mom a tug or treats to interact with the dog. Or something else. That's where your trainer can give you a plan and see how your dog is reacting to this stuff.

I am not even saying you should take this advice and just go use it. Some of that is reading the dog and knowing when the dot is ready for another bite, when it is ready to leave them wanting a little more, and it helps to have somebody watch to make sure you are moving enough, being exciting, the timing to make sure you are rewarding and letting the dog win as they are pushing instead of pulling. Sure, it is not brain science, however it is something I suspect helps to get right the first time. Plus, if your trainer has a different strategy and a good reason for doing something different, you want to do what they are telling you, sooner than later, and not just hope I am really, really good at dog training over the Internet; maybe somebody is, probably not me. But really, it helps to know what you are doing, why you are doing it, and what to do if something happens you do not expect. A good trainer will do wonders. Yes, videos of Jao and Martine Loots, Michael Ellis, Ivan B., or anybody else are likely all amazing. I would still argue they are inferior to a knowledgeable trainer giving you immediate feedback on what you are doing (right or wrong) and teaching you the basics.

-Cheers


----------



## Hunter Allred

Michael Murphy said:


> moving backwards, so simple , cant believe it never came to mind


I decided to change my male from pulling, to pushing (prefered in PSA). Here is a short video of what we did to start to reverse my male from pulling to pushing. I keep tension on him once he's got the reward, the reward is moving away (in this case, a helper), and I give slack briefly... if he pushes into the reward, he wins (brand new helper, but I'd prefer a "big party" whenever he pushed... make it a big deal). You can do the same thing with a toy. Its worked great for us.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G389D3UyGyk


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## David Baker

Hunter Allred said:


> I decided to change my male from pulling, to pushing (prefered in PSA). Here is a short video of what we did to start to reverse my male from pulling to pushing. I keep tension on him once he's got the reward, the reward is moving away (in this case, a helper), and I give slack briefly... if he pushes into the reward, he wins (brand new helper, but I'd prefer a "big party" whenever he pushed... make it a big deal). You can do the same thing with a toy. Its worked great for us.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G389D3UyGyk




Very similar to what im doing with Major


https://www.dropbox.com/s/oofskoq0z0gh3wm/20131109_115409.mp4


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## Matt Vandart

Dude, if you want her to bite harder you are better off closing her 'lips' as in her flews over her teeth and teaching her to breath through her nose, but leave that till she is on a puppy sleeve. You can feel the dogs jaws close when it realises it can breath through it's nose when biting.

Also, thanks chris :mrgreen:


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## maggie fraser

Christopher Jones, what on earth were you thinking about


----------



## Joby Becker

other youtube user channels.
*
lovesivo*: 195 videos

example video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ds7QR1MBlQA
*
smackk9*: 107 videos

example video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iuhh2BHjSp4

*Harm Weijers*: 19 videos
example:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gJe8f7LfLTs


----------



## Connie Sutherland

*"Michael, why don't you just go to your local club? There is a local SchH/IPO club in your city if I read correctly. They can teach you this stuff and more in short order. I am not saying this as some Internet Expert, however there are some pretty apparent mistakes you are making."*

(from post #141)


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## maggie fraser

'Terminology is dominated by those who manage what they do not understand'.

Murphy's Law


----------



## Christopher Smith

Puppy videos are nothing but doggie porn. Fun to watch but pretty useless without seeing the whole program and how the dogs work as adults.

There are tons of good puppies but very few good adults. If you want to have fun use the search features on this forum and find puppy videos from 4 or 5 years ago. Where are they now? And if you want to move that fun into the realm of absolute hilarity start asking some of those people what happened to that kickass puppy. And if you want me to have a fricken aneurysm ask them why the hell they are telling you how to raise your pup! :what: 

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## Christopher Jones

maggie fraser said:


> Christopher Jones, what on earth were you thinking about


If i sold pups to only those people who i rate or think they have the same ability and experience as myself in this country I would only sell to maybe 5 people. Im not a person who breeds for an income, and dont breed often, but if i have a litter to get something for myself i also have to find homes for the ones i dont want to keep.
Michael is young and keen. He doesnt have alot of knowedgable people around him, but i have no doubt he will go to local IPO club with her. He can move from asking 20 questions about bloodlines and genepools and knpv vs ring vs ipo etc and actually learn how to train and work with a dog. He also has no interest in breeding her and has agreed to desex her when she is older. 
I think she will turn out fine. Plus he has Alice to bitch slap him over the net with responses to his questions. I think he secretly has a crush on Alice


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## maggie fraser

Wot's an aneurysm? A wee burst of excitement?


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## maggie fraser

Christopher Jones said:


> If i sold pups to only those people who i rate or think they have the same ability and experience as myself in this country I would only sell to maybe 5 people. Im not a person who breeds for an income, and dont breed often, but if i have a litter to get something for myself i also have to find homes for the ones i dont want to keep.
> Michael is young and keen. He doesnt have alot of knowedgable people around him, but i have no doubt he will go to local IPO club with her. He can move from asking 20 questions about bloodlines and genepools and knpv vs ring vs ipo etc and actually learn how to train and work with a dog. He also has no interest in breeding her and has agreed to desex her when she is older.
> I think she will turn out fine. Plus he has Alice to bitch slap him over the net with responses to his questions. I think he secretly has a crush on Alice


Hey, I understand that Chris, but a joke is a joke (murphy's law). He ain't even taking it from Alice, young as he is, what hope is there? I think you're pretty optimistic and.... you didn't think about us poor wdf readers did you? did you?


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## David Ruby

Christopher Smith said:


> Puppy videos are nothing but doggie porn. Fun to watch but pretty useless without seeing the whole program and how the dogs work as adults.
> 
> There are tons of good puppies but very few good adults. If you want to have fun use the search features on this forum and find puppy videos from 4 or 5 years ago. Where are they now? And if you want to move that fun into the realm of absolute hilarity start asking some of those people what happened to that kickass puppy. And if you want me to have a fricken aneurysm ask them why the hell they are telling you how to raise your pup! :what:


There is truth to that. However...

Isn't the easy answer just look at puppy videos and training from people who have had success, and work your way back? Start with somebody like Michael Ellis, Ivan Balabanov, Martine Loots, or any of the people or dogs that have had success in whatever venue you are looking at, and then check out their videos, training, whatever.

Also, in this case isn't it sort of about training and the foundation? You do not have to be Yoshitsugu Yamashita or Ronda Rousey to give somebody the basics of an arm bar, or even how to do jump rope or circuit training for conditioning work. So I would not inherently disregard the training if it were solid just because the dog did not become a champion, provided it is solid and was the same for a dud as it was for a stud. Genetics plays a role in that as much as training, the handler, etc. Which I am sure you are well aware of. I am just saying, looking at somebody who knows what they are doing and is accomplished could be a step up in answering some of his questions. It is not that hard to see who is knocking them dead at SchH III, FR3, MR3, BR1, KNPV PH1/PH2, PSA, or finding somebody doing solid protection work by whatever definition you are looking for, then tracking down training videos or emailing them for thoughts on their program and what he might utilize from it.

I actually largely agree with your bigger point. I just think there are easy ways to look at those puppy training videos, especially ones by reputable people who know what they are doing and explain things, and get something of value from it. Of course, I am also the one saying I have learned more from actually training with people who explained the whole program, explained what they were doing, why they were doing it, taught me to read my dog (as well as watching others read their own dogs, successfully or otherwise), and helped me deconstruct their training and reconstruct it in my mind.

-Cheers


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## maggie fraser

Aye, but watching all those vids for someone who has no clue just adds to overwhelming No Clue, oh, and lots of terminology too! You're all just encouraging him  it kind of sends out the wrong signals.


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## Christopher Jones

maggie fraser said:


> Aye, but watching all those vids for someone who has no clue just adds to overwhelming No Clue, oh, and lots of terminology too! You're all just encouraging him  it kind of sends out the wrong signals.


I cant say I was thinking about the WDF peeps when I gave him a pup lol. But it hasnt been all bad. When was the last time Alice had this much attention from a young guy? ; )
If Michael watches a video of Jao and Martine working a young 12 week old pup he should notice that they are professional, calm and not doing anything stupid with their dogs. Its more to see the picture of good training rather than learning how to or even copying what they are doing.


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## maggie fraser

Christopher Jones said:


> I cant say I was thinking about the WDF peeps when I gave him a pup lol. But it hasnt been all bad. When was the last time Alice had this much attention from a young guy? ; )
> If Michael watches a video of Jao and Martine working a young 12 week old pup he should notice that they are professional, calm and not doing anything stupid with their dogs. Its more to see the picture of good training rather than learning how to or even copying what they are doing.


Why on earth would you assume that given the evidence here? Too much sun??


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## Christopher Jones

maggie fraser said:


> Why on earth would you assume that given the evidence here? Too much sun??


Time will tell. And just cos you havent seen the sun in 9 months....


----------



## Christopher Smith

David Ruby said:


> There is truth to that. However...
> 
> Isn't the easy answer just look at puppy videos and training from people who have had success, and work your way back? Start with somebody like Michael Ellis, Ivan Balabanov, Martine Loots, or any of the people or dogs that have had success in whatever venue you are looking at, and then check out their videos, training, whatever.
> 
> Also, in this case isn't it sort of about training and the foundation? You do not have to be Yoshitsugu Yamashita or Ronda Rousey to give somebody the basics of an arm bar, or even how to do jump rope or circuit training for conditioning work. So I would not inherently disregard the training if it were solid just because the dog did not become a champion, provided it is solid and was the same for a dud as it was for a stud. Genetics plays a role in that as much as training, the handler, etc. Which I am sure you are well aware of. I am just saying, looking at somebody who knows what they are doing and is accomplished could be a step up in answering some of his questions. It is not that hard to see who is knocking them dead at SchH III, FR3, MR3, BR1, KNPV PH1/PH2, PSA, or finding somebody doing solid protection work by whatever definition you are looking for, then tracking down training videos or emailing them for thoughts on their program and what he might utilize from it.
> 
> I actually largely agree with your bigger point. I just think there are easy ways to look at those puppy training videos, especially ones by reputable people who know what they are doing and explain things, and get something of value from it. Of course, I am also the one saying I have learned more from actually training with people who explained the whole program, explained what they were doing, why they were doing it, taught me to read my dog (as well as watching others read their own dogs, successfully or otherwise), and helped me deconstruct their training and reconstruct it in my mind.
> 
> -Cheers


Like I said it's fun but you can't learn to train a dog by watching it. How do you define success? Have you seen a dog that Martine or Mike trained or are you judging by some other critera?

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## David Ruby

Christopher Smith said:


> Like I said it's fun but you can't learn to train a dog by watching it. How do you define success? Have you seen a dog that Martine or Mike trained or are you judging by some other critera?http://www.petguide.com/mobile


Martine I was just basing on her success which I pretty much know from reading about and videos of A'Tim and just perusing the list of accomplishments from her handling dogs. She was an easy example because Christopher mentioned her, and I have heard enough about her and A'Tim. Michael Elllis, I have seen him training people, watched him compete with Pi, and think highly of the man. His training makes sense to me, and I think he has a way with people as well as dogs.

Success? That's sticky. Or crystal clear.  What context? Sport? It can be anything from Nationals to club trials (in which case, the scores & trial results are pretty easy to fine) to just a dog that fits your criteria. For a working family dog, a personal protection, street dog, not to mention a Police K9 or the like? That gets a bit more subjective since different people/jobs/departments/handlers/etc. look for different things. If you want a family dog to go hunting and have fun at the local dog club, your definition of success is probably different than if you are looking to get your SchH/Ring 3, and compete at a national/international level.

The reason I would argue the point you can learn to train a dog by watching, at least to a point, is people have learned skills from videos, or at least say they have. I am not saying that means you should use it solely as the way you learn to train dogs, just that you do not have to go very far to find people who have found videos from Michael Ellis and Ivan Balabanov (and assuredly others, those are just the two most common I have seen cited) very helpful in demonstrating certain skillsets. You are still learning something, aren't you? I think we are basically agreeing, just mincing words or degrees on a few things, and probably both think Michael (or anybody else) should just find a solid trainer to teach them this stuff and make sure they are implementing it correctly.

-Cheers


----------



## rick smith

more off topic, but anyone else wondered about this ?

examples of learning by watching :

1. what do most of the people who beg for Cesar Millan to come and save their "protective and aggressive" dog first tell him when he walks in the door ?
....how they watch his show like a religion and have never missed an episode \\/

2. now that there must be millions of youtube videos shown all over the world, and people have built up a home collection of dvd's, is the world gradually being filled with more capable dog owners ???

don't know how it applies to kids in school these days cause mine are old, but is the audio/visual media "training" revolution having a "hands on" impact or is it just entertainment ?

from what i've seen it only helps those who grow up using a game controller in their hands ](*,)


----------



## Alice Bezemer

Christopher Jones said:


> If i sold pups to only those people who i rate or think they have the same ability and experience as myself in this country I would only sell to maybe 5 people. Im not a person who breeds for an income, and dont breed often, but if i have a litter to get something for myself i also have to find homes for the ones i dont want to keep.
> Michael is young and keen. He doesnt have alot of knowedgable people around him, but i have no doubt he will go to local IPO club with her. He can move from asking 20 questions about bloodlines and genepools and knpv vs ring vs ipo etc and actually learn how to train and work with a dog. He also has no interest in breeding her and has agreed to desex her when she is older.
> I think she will turn out fine. Plus he has Alice to bitch slap him over the net with responses to his questions. I think he secretly has a crush on Alice


I agree with Chris here, why not sell a pup to a beginning dog owner. You can not vet everyone that wants a dog and he has agreed to desex her when older so I am hopeful that Michael with have some of the advice given stuck in his brain somewhere and that he applies it.

As for you Chris J? My god man, did you have to ruin a perfectly good nights sleep with that crush remark? Well played Sir.... well played. Consider yourself put on notice for that one.... 

*adds a strike too Chris's name*


----------



## rick smith

If i was a breeder i would be "very selective" who i sold pups to, if they were the type who could do lay some serious hurt on people. i don't think this litter was being bred as social SAR dogs, and if they were, i'm damn sure Michael would have had NO interest in one

1. i can tell in five minutes if a buyer has any dog sense
2. i could hang with them for a lot longer and still not know how they were planning raise it
3. but once they took it it would NOT be my responsibility who it might **** up a year or two later. hell, the dog could bark in a child's face while playing and give the kid a lifetime phobia of dogs without ever touching the kid...that wouldn't be my responsibility either ](*,)

Michael's age has little to do with the equation. if he wants to learn, he will. with a little effort there is always someone around who knows more about dogs than you do.
- if he had wanted to post vids and ask for help he would've done that too
- he's already comparing it to his gsd and that sucks
- he's said it is teaching itself and that sucks
- he's made some comments without thinking out about choking off his pup and sticking his fingers in its mouth and how much he liked the reaction, and that sucks
- he's also made some previous remarks about how he isn't wild about the IPO crowd over there so i don't see him jumping on that opportunity, and if he had cared about an "IPO dog" i'm sure he would have been able to find one. he didn't
- if he had really wanted to get over to Holland and learn about KNPV style training, he probably woulda found a way to do it

i figure the dog will certainly be able to handle some mis-handling as compared to some poorly bred "whatever" breed. i also figure it will get bigger and nail him a few times when it has a full set of teeth. how he handles that will probably determine how the dog matures, but i'm not worried about him or the bitch at all 

but more than anything else, he handles constructive criticism well ... rolls off his back like a duck :neutral:

yeah, lotta "mind reading" going on here ... a skill i picked up courtesy of Uncle Sam, and i think i'm still pretty good at it 

and all my opinions, but unlike A-holes, i have a lot of them


----------



## David Ruby

Hey Rick,



rick smith said:


> more off topic, but anyone else wondered about this ?
> 
> examples of learning by watching :
> 
> 1. what do most of the people who beg for Cesar Millan to come and save their "protective and aggressive" dog first tell him when he walks in the door ?
> ....how they watch his show like a religion and have never missed an episode \\/
> 
> 2. now that there must be millions of youtube videos shown all over the world, and people have built up a home collection of dvd's, is the world gradually being filled with more capable dog owners ???
> 
> don't know how it applies to kids in school these days cause mine are old, but is the audio/visual media "training" revolution having a "hands on" impact or is it just entertainment ?
> 
> from what i've seen it only helps those who grow up using a game controller in their hands ](*,)


Two things:

1) There was actually research done showing there is an educational component to A/V media. However, in doing an activity there is certainly a kinesthetic component and I am fairly sure most are not saying, in public schools or dog training, it should be the only tool. I certainly hope not. Although at large you have a point, in part because...

2) How many with these YouTube clips or videos are actually taking one cohesive plan as a whole (not just a few ~2 minute clips pasted together) and using the whole program. I do not think just seeing the successes or the finished product really counts, any more than learning to lift weights from watching Arnold Schwarzenegger or Ronnie Coleman when you should be reading Starting Strength or hiring a trainer at the gym to learn squats and deadlifts. So while I would argue videos CAN be effective, I would also argue there are some pretty severe caveats to that. I mean, you can take the best videos in the world and still implement them incorrectly.



rick smith said:


> but more than anything else, he handles constructive criticism well ... rolls off his back like a duck :neutral:




-Cheers


----------



## Michael Murphy

Alice Bezemer said:


> I agree with Chris here, why not sell a pup to a beginning dog owner. You can not vet everyone that wants a dog and he has agreed to desex her when older so I am hopeful that Michael with have some of the advice given stuck in his brain somewhere and that he applies it.
> 
> As for you Chris J? My god man, did you have to ruin a perfectly good nights sleep with that crush remark? Well played Sir.... well played. Consider yourself put on notice for that one....
> 
> *adds a strike too Chris's name*


no but seriously if we were the same age ......
do you have a daughter my age that also has an interest in working dogs


----------



## Alice Bezemer

Michael Murphy said:


> no but seriously if we were the same age ......
> do you have a daughter my age that also has an interest in working dogs


:-o go away Michael! :lol:


----------



## Tiago Fontes

alice bezemer said:


> :-o go away michael! :lol:




lmao!


----------



## Matt Vandart

rick smith said:


> more off topic, but anyone else wondered about this ?
> 
> examples of learning by watching :
> 
> 1. what do most of the people who beg for Cesar Millan to come and save their "protective and aggressive" dog first tell him when he walks in the door ?
> ....how they watch his show like a religion and have never missed an episode \\/
> 
> *2. now that there must be millions of youtube videos shown all over the world, and people have built up a home collection of dvd's, is the world gradually being filled with more capable dog owners ???*
> 
> don't know how it applies to kids in school these days cause mine are old, but is the audio/visual media "training" revolution having a "hands on" impact or is it just entertainment ?
> 
> from what i've seen it only helps those who grow up using a game controller in their hands ](*,)


No because certainly the vast majority of them are dogshite.


----------



## rick smith

yeah, i'm sure the majority of youtube clips are pretty much worthless

but how about my Cesar comment ?
in japan people don't watch the net to learn about dog training except maybe for some entertainment value. if they want a dog trained, they seek out a trainer. that has been my experience, and that holds true even for people with pets

but ever since the CM show has been shown here, i do know people watch it a lot if they have a dog because they tell me and ask about the show.
and still, they never apply even the most basic stuff he talks about and preaches. stuff that ANYONE could correct in a session or two. and those who have said they tried to copy his way still bring a dog who is usually worse than they started out with

i look at the show as a trainer, but also with an open mind as if i never owned a dog. the simple problems pet people have should be a piece of cake to correct after watching him do it over and over and over. 
- so why can't they, and why does it often make the problem worse ?

.... forget the fact it is a TV program and highly edited, etc

- is it because they just copy a "technique" they might see him do and not apply the "PL" thing across the board 24/7 ? 
- if that is the case, it might confirm that :
1. people only see and hear what they want to see/hear, and their "selective" eyes and ears don't prompt them to make home lifestyle changes about how they handle their dog ?
2. or that people cannot learn from watching someone else ?
3. or that NO training can be successful without first establishing the correct bond with the dog and showing it "how to learn" b4 u try and teach it anything or prevent bad behavior ?

i go for #3. 
- from my experience, for any (bad) behavior related issue, it all depends on what they do with their dog AFTER a training session, or, what i can show them rather quickly that they might even be able to copy, goes right out the window

- and i happen to feel that this also applies to working dog training because dogs certainly don't stop learning from their handlers when the lead comes off and they are "put up". dogs are just not that smart, imo
- maybe this might not apply so much to a working dog that spends most of the time kenneled, but i think it does apply to one who lives in a home environment, and especially when you start talking about "drive" issues

if you don't believe this, next time you see a friend with their dog, just make up some silly excuse and ask them to teach their dog something new next time you see them with their dog. 
- anything simple that their dog hasn't done before. then watch how they "teach" it. it will tell you a LOT

disclaimer :
i'm not trying to turn the thread into "bonding" rant either


----------



## Matt Vandart

CM has success because he reads dogs well and is pinpoint accurate with his timing and correction.
the average person reads like a mudskipper and are out with timing in a really bad way, like 10 seconds +

I don't like his shit because of his use of induced helplessness. All the other stuff he says does is good.


----------



## David Baker

Alice Bezemer said:


> :-o go away Michael! :lol:


hahahahahaha....


----------



## Michael Murphy

rick smith said:


> If i was a breeder i would be "very selective" who i sold pups to, if they were the type who could do lay some serious hurt on people. *i don't think this litter was being bred as social SAR dogs, and if they were, i'm damn sure Michael would have had NO interest in one
> *
> 1. i can tell in five minutes if a buyer has any dog sense
> 2. i could hang with them for a lot longer and still not know how they were planning raise it
> 3. but once they took it it would NOT be my responsibility who it might **** up a year or two later. hell, the dog could bark in a child's face while playing and give the kid a lifetime phobia of dogs without ever touching the kid...that wouldn't be my responsibility either ](*,)
> 
> Michael's age has little to do with the equation. if he wants to learn, he will. with a little effort there is always someone around who knows more about dogs than you do.
> - if he had wanted to post vids and ask for help he would've done that too
> - he's already comparing it to his gsd and that sucks
> - he's said it is teaching itself and that sucks
> - he's made some comments without thinking out about choking off his pup and sticking his fingers in its mouth and how much he liked the reaction, and that sucks
> - he's also made some previous remarks about how he isn't wild about the IPO crowd over there so i don't see him jumping on that opportunity, and if he had cared about an "IPO dog" i'm sure he would have been able to find one. he didn't
> - if he had really wanted to get over to Holland and learn about KNPV style training, he probably woulda found a way to do it
> 
> i figure the dog will certainly be able to handle some mis-handling as compared to some poorly bred "whatever" breed. i also figure it will get bigger and nail him a few times when it has a full set of teeth. how he handles that will probably determine how the dog matures, but i'm not worried about him or the bitch at all
> 
> but more than anything else, he handles constructive criticism well ... rolls off his back like a duck :neutral:
> 
> yeah, lotta "mind reading" going on here ... a skill i picked up courtesy of Uncle Sam, and i think i'm still pretty good at it
> 
> and all my opinions, but unlike A-holes, i have a lot of them


i think it depends which side the pup takes after, i know the mothers side with arko, tommy and bono produce some aggression but i have a feeling jary berghorst produces more social high drive dogs. i know its way to early but so far she is very social


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## Matt Vandart

Keep her that way then


----------



## Christopher Jones

Michael Murphy said:


> i think it depends which side the pup takes after, i know the mothers side with arko, tommy and bono produce some aggression but i have a feeling jary berghorst produces more social high drive dogs. i know its way to early but so far she is very social


Social is good Michael.


----------



## Michael Murphy

Christopher Jones said:


> Social is good Michael.


yea i want her to be social, especially at this age, anything else would suggest some nerves, i was just saying what i think the different lines in the pedigree bring in terms of character


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

why is it aggression vs. social?


----------



## Joby Becker

social is good. you pobably dont want a real asshole for your first dog of that nature.


----------



## Alice Bezemer

Michael Murphy said:


> yea i want her to be social, especially at this age, anything else would suggest some nerves, i was just saying what i think the different lines in the pedigree bring in terms of character


Do you even read your own posts, Michael? Social when pup but it would seem it doesn't really matter to you if she is social as an adult? BTW, let me enlighten you... Just because a dog is or can be an asshole doesn't mean its anything to do with nerves. 

Step of the idea that a mean bastard on your leash might be a better, stronger or more impressive dog. You want a social dog, one that is easy to go around with, one that doesn't snap or growl at everything. One that is there when you need it! I would say that especially you NEED a social dog because anything else in your hands is a recipe for trouble and bloodshed and most of that blood will belong to yourself. 

I have had assholes in my kennels and I have no problem with a dog being an asshole. It is what it is but trust me when you walk the bastard or want to sell it or when the asshole feels the need to show his character its not all that ****ing funny! Assholes are work, they keep you awake and on your toes constantly!


----------



## Matt Vandart

Alice Bezemer said:


> Do you even read your own posts, Michael? Social when pup but it would seem it doesn't really matter to you if she is social as an adult? BTW, let me enlighten you... Just because a dog is or can be an asshole doesn't mean its anything to do with nerves.
> 
> Step of the idea that a mean bastard on your leash might be a better, stronger or more impressive dog. You want a social dog, one that is easy to go around with, one that doesn't snap or growl at everything. One that is there when you need it! I would say that especially you NEED a social dog because anything else in your hands is a recipe for trouble and bloodshed and most of that blood will belong to yourself.
> 
> I have had assholes in my kennels and I have no problem with a dog being an asshole. It is what it is but trust me when you walk the bastard or want to sell it or when the asshole feels the need to show his character its not all that ****ing funny! Assholes are work, they keep you awake and on your toes constantly!


Oh god tell me about it, lol, ****ing PIA stress inducing ARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGHH!


----------



## Kevin Cyr

Michael Murphy said:


> yea i want her to be social, especially at this age, anything else would suggest some nerves, i was just saying what i think the different lines in the pedigree bring in terms of character


At this age?? So you dont want social as an adult? You shouldnt be allowed to own a dog, yiur absolutely freakin clueless. Realistically her lines in either side may or may not bring crap to what you want but your interaction training and upbringing will determine more of what she will become. God help you.


----------



## Gillian Schuler

_Do you even read your own posts, Michael? Social when pup but it would seem it doesn't really matter to you if she is social as an adult? BTW, let me enlighten you... Just because a dog is or can be an asshole doesn't mean its anything to do with nerves. _

_You're always ahead of me Alice but couldn't agree more._

Maybe we are lucky over here in Europe - I'm not bragging.

However, these are things we learnt at the dog club when we first started training or followed up on at seminars.

However there is so much literature on the Net regarding the behaviour of a dog that I wonder why some handlers don't avail themselves of it.


----------



## Christopher Smith

Gillian Schuler said:


> Maybe we are lucky over here in Europe - I'm not bragging.


I have heard just as much dumb stuff come from Europeans. The only luck you have is that they are not posting on this forum.


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Lee H Sternberg

Alice Bezemer said:


> Do you even read your own posts, Michael? Social when pup but it would seem it doesn't really matter to you if she is social as an adult? BTW, let me enlighten you... Just because a dog is or can be an asshole doesn't mean its anything to do with nerves.
> 
> Step of the idea that a mean bastard on your leash might be a better, stronger or more impressive dog. You want a social dog, one that is easy to go around with, one that doesn't snap or growl at everything. One that is there when you need it! I would say that especially you NEED a social dog because anything else in your hands is a recipe for trouble and bloodshed and most of that blood will belong to yourself.
> 
> I have had assholes in my kennels and I have no problem with a dog being an asshole. It is what it is but trust me when you walk the bastard or want to sell it or when the asshole feels the need to show his character its not all that ****ing funny! Assholes are work, they keep you awake and on your toes constantly!


Alice, you are right on target with that whole post. Your last sentence pegged my feelings exactly. You might remember I have one asshole right from puupyhood one and one that was social in the beginning but has evolved in the other direction. I've heard so much BS about a asshole must have nerve issues that I just laugh and don't even get involved in the discussion any more.


----------



## maggie fraser

Christopher Smith said:


> I have heard just as much dumb stuff come from Europeans. The only luck you have is that they are not posting on this forum.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


 
This thread is utter unabashed, uninhibited, poetic dumb. And hey, not American, or even European dumb... a new breed of dumb!


----------



## Gillian Schuler

Christopher Smith said:


> I have heard just as much dumb stuff come from Europeans. The only luck you have is that they are not posting on this forum.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


What on earth have you got against Europeans?

I see you don't extend it to the canine world!!


----------



## Joby Becker

maggie fraser said:


> This thread is utter unabashed, uninhibited, poetic dumb. And hey, not American, or even European dumb... a new breed of dumb!


Ozzy Dumb!


----------



## Matt Vandart

Bwahahahahahahah!


----------



## maggie fraser

Joby Becker said:


> Ozzy Dumb!




An Englishman wanted to become an Irishman, so he visited a doctor to find out how to go about this. "Well" said the doctor, "this is a very delicate operation and there is a lot that can go wrong. I will have to remove half your brain". "That's OK" said the Englishman. "I've always wanted to be Irish and I'm prepared to take the risk".

The operation went ahead but the Englishman woke to find a look of horror on the face of the doctor. "I'm so terribly sorry!!" the doctor said. "Instead of removing half the brain, I've taken the whole brain out". The patient replied, "No worries, mate!!"


----------



## susan tuck

Gillian Schuler said:


> What on earth have you got against Europeans?
> 
> I see you don't extend it to the canine world!!


Why would you think he has something against Europeans?

He said "I have heard *just as much* dumb stuff come from Europeans", he *didn't* say "I have heard *more* dumb stuff come from Europeans". 

Surely you would agree, it's s a true statement, every single continent on the face of the earth has more than it's fair share of people making dumb statements, especially when it comes to dogs??!


----------



## Gillian Schuler

susan tuck said:


> Why would you think he has something against Europeans?
> 
> He said "I have heard *just as much* dumb stuff come from Europeans", he *didn't* say "I have heard *more* dumb stuff come from Europeans".
> 
> Surely you would agree, it's s a true statement, every single continent on the face of the earth has more than it's fair share of people making dumb statements, especially when it comes to dogs??!


I was replying to a post neither you nor Christopher Smith wrote. 

Forget it.


----------



## maggie fraser

Gillian Schuler said:


> I was replying to a post neither you nor Christopher Smith wrote.
> 
> Forget it.


Gillian, my being European (for now) , let me see if I can explain...

I think they were both appreciating just how much the European sentiment expressed here, is so devoid of a patronising and condescending air. I don't think they appreciate just how much some Europeans partake of a wee gargle at the weekends :^o:-&


----------



## Alice Bezemer

:lol:

anddddd ofcourse the drive poster is blissfully silent after his stunning European comment.....

I wonder which female is going to jump on me now to come to his rescue? :lol: :lol: :lol:


----------



## Christopher Smith

Gillian Schuler said:


> What on earth have you got against Europeans?
> 
> I see you don't extend it to the canine world!!


I don't have anything against Europeans as a whole. I do have problems with Europeans, such as yourself, that make backhanded negative comments about places they have never been to especially my country. You consistently do this and I find it ignorant and annoying. 

I know that lots of Americans like to buy into the European dogs and training are better. But some of us have been to Europe and know that that's not the truth.


----------



## Christopher Jones

Please everyone, this threads really about me, and maybe Michaels pup, so can we please keep it that way. No need to bring Europeans into this. 
Thank you 
And Maggie, if you came to live in Australia at least your skin would be nice and brown as opposed to that pale blue colour you get with the adsence of sun in Scotland :twisted:


----------



## Alice Bezemer

Christopher Jones said:


> Please everyone, this threads really about me, and maybe Michaels pup, so can we please keep it that way. No need to bring Europeans into this.
> Thank you
> And Maggie, if you came to live in Australia at least your skin would be nice and brown as opposed to that pale blue colour you get with the adsence of sun in Scotland :twisted:


It willnae help Christopher... ex Dalkeith here and after all those years I am still a nice Scotland tan :lol: Granted, the Netherlands is not the sunniest or warmest place to be but Scotland blood seems to easily defeat any rays of sun to make us look even more pale then we already are.


----------



## Christopher Jones

Alice Bezemer said:


> It willnae help Christopher... ex Dalkeith here and after all those years I am still a nice Scotland tan :lol: Granted, the Netherlands is not the sunniest or warmest place to be but Scotland blood seems to easily defeat any rays of sun to make us look even more pale then we already are.


I reminds me of a Billy Connelly line. He said he always tells people to visit Scotland as its so beautiful there. Then when people come back he says "So how did you like it?" and they reply " its really pretty there but it rained the whole time we were there" Billy then says "Its fukiin Scotland, its always raining"


----------



## Michael Murphy

all i really wanted is for someone to confirm whether i was right about jary producing more social dogs then an arko or tommy :roll:


----------



## Tiago Fontes

Christopher Smith said:


> I know that lots of Americans like to buy into the European dogs and training are better. But some of us have been to Europe and know that that's not the truth.



Some information:

http://www.wusv2013.org/documentstest/pdf/WUSVresultsendteam0011.pdf WUSV 2013

http://gallery.mailchimp.com/7229c52c6f10bafe7b8dfc003/files/2012_WUSV_Results_Final_Team.pdf WUSV 2012 


http://chienplus.com/wusv2011/ WUSV 2011 


http://www.jaquenetta.com/gsd show results 2010/WUSV Weltmeisterschaft Results 2010.pdf WUSV 2010 


Want me to start looking for Mondioring results? lol


----------



## Lee H Sternberg

Michael Murphy said:


> all i really wanted is for someone to confirm whether i was right about jary producing more social dogs then an arko or tommy :roll:


And look what you accomplished......a TURF WAR!:razz::razz::razz::razz::razz::razz:


----------



## Christopher Jones

Michael Murphy said:


> all i really wanted is for someone to confirm whether i was right about jary producing more social dogs then an arko or tommy :roll:


Jary does produce serious police dogs. While he might seem to produce dogs that also are better points dogs than Tommy or Arko, he doesnt tend to throw as much handler dominance as Tommy or Arko. He produces alot of hard attackers with fast entries. Also quite healthy dogs.


----------



## Christopher Smith

Michael Murphy said:


> all i really wanted is for someone to confirm whether i was right about jary producing more social dogs then an arko or tommy :roll:


Here is the answer to almost every question you have ever asked on this forum... 

*SOMETIMES*.​
Refer back to this post every time you have a question and save yourself some time.


----------



## Christopher Smith

Tiago Fontes said:


> Some information:
> 
> http://www.wusv2013.org/documentstest/pdf/WUSVresultsendteam0011.pdf WUSV 2013
> 
> http://gallery.mailchimp.com/7229c52c6f10bafe7b8dfc003/files/2012_WUSV_Results_Final_Team.pdf WUSV 2012
> 
> 
> http://chienplus.com/wusv2011/ WUSV 2011
> 
> 
> http://www.jaquenetta.com/gsd show results 2010/WUSV Weltmeisterschaft Results 2010.pdf WUSV 2010
> 
> 
> Want me to start looking for Mondioring results? lol


Hey that's great Tiago! Why don't you spell it out for everyone?  I'm sure you, having all of experience of having never done the sport, have a lot of insight to share. So please put some of that knowledge to use. Explain why you put those results here.


----------



## Christopher Smith

Oh yeah...you can throw mondio in there too.

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----------



## Tiago Fontes

Christopher Smith said:


> Hey that's great Tiago! Why don't you spell it out for everyone?  I'm sure you, having all of experience of having never done the sport, have a lot of insight to share. So please put some of that knowledge to use. Explain why you put those results here.



lol...

I was just checking results to try and find evidence of: 

"I know that lots of Americans like to buy into the European dogs and training are better. But some of us have been to Europe and know that that's not the truth."



Regards


----------



## Christopher Smith

Tiago Fontes said:


> lol...
> 
> I was just checking results to try and find evidence of:
> 
> "I know that lots of Americans like to buy into the European dogs and training are better. But some of us have been to Europe and know that that's not the truth."
> 
> 
> 
> Regards


Yeah.... that's what I thought. 

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----------



## Gillian Schuler

Christopher Smith said:


> I don't have anything against Europeans as a whole. I do have problems with Europeans, such as yourself, that make backhanded negative comments about places they have never been to especially my country. You consistently do this and I find it ignorant and annoying.
> 
> I know that lots of Americans like to buy into the European dogs and training are better. But some of us have been to Europe and know that that's not the truth.


Sorry about upsetting op's post but the above is a downright lie. I have never made backhanded, negative comments about your country.


----------



## Alice Bezemer

Gillian Schuler said:


> Sorry about upsetting op's post but the above is a downright lie. I have never made backhanded, negative comments about your country.


Most if not all of us know that Gillian.  No worries. Ignore the poster of the ignorant words. He only posts them because he doesn't have a genuine, educated or even well thought out post to put out there. We can't actually expect him to contribute to anything on this forum with a well thought out comment now can we... It is what he does, as soon as he is clueless for an actual educated and well thought out comment or reply he resorts to being a pillock... More power to him! :lol:


----------



## maggie fraser

As serious as this thread is; let's face it, when it comes to dog training and football (that's soccer to you big fat americans) the Europeans have it in the bag. Now, as they (Europeans except for german and swiss)  are generally good communicators, the issue we're having here is one simply of a cross of wires and language/culture misinterpretation. :lol:

Lighten up folks, there's plenty enough entertainment from the get go on this thread, we should all embrace diversity, maybe even the Australians too, maybe..


----------



## rick smith

"M" must be lovin the epic length, but i feel his thread ran out of keepers about eight thousand five hundred views ago ..... ](*,)


----------



## Christopher Jones

maggie fraser said:


> As serious as this thread is; let's face it, when it comes to dog training and football (that's soccer to you big fat americans) the Europeans have it in the bag. Now, as they (Europeans except for german and swiss)  are generally good communicators, the issue we're having here is one simply of a cross of wires and language/culture misinterpretation. :lol:
> 
> Lighten up folks, there's plenty enough entertainment from the get go on this thread, we should all embrace diversity, maybe even the Australians too, maybe..


Nah, we dont want another immigration wave from the UK again. Please dont embrace us Maggie. And can you take back the Irish travellers that are currently ripping off old people with dodgy tarmac driveways? Thx.


----------



## Chris McDonald

You guys talking about a** hole dogs.. the more I learn the more it I see how much the dog is a mirror of its handler


----------



## maggie fraser

Christopher Jones said:


> Nah, we dont want another immigration wave from the UK again. Please dont embrace us Maggie. And can you take back the Irish travellers that are currently ripping off old people with dodgy tarmac driveways? Thx.


Ah, we're gonna hug the shit out of you now, just wait till you see the Bulgarian variety, bit of a hysteric happening over here right now prior to jan 1, already getting the boats fuelled up.


----------



## Michael Murphy

Christopher Jones said:


> Jary does produce *serious* police dogs. While he might seem to produce dogs that also are better points dogs than Tommy or Arko, he doesnt tend to throw as much handler dominance as Tommy or Arko. He produces alot of hard attackers with fast entries. Also quite healthy dogs.


whats the definition of serious here?


----------



## susan tuck

Alice Bezemer said:


> Most if not all of us know that Gillian.  No worries. Ignore the poster of the ignorant words. He only posts them because he doesn't have a genuine, educated or even well thought out post to put out there. We can't actually expect him to contribute to anything on this forum with a well thought out comment now can we... It is what he does, as soon as he is clueless for an actual educated and well thought out comment or reply he resorts to being a pillock... More power to him! :lol:


I haven't seen Gillian make back handed comments about this country, but on the other hand you don't know Christopher either, and I do know him. He is very well spoken and educated, and also has made many good contributions to this forum. Just because you may disagree with him doesn't lessen his contributions. In person he is someone who is always helpful and is extremely knowledgeably about dogs and sport.

Your above post is no better than his, Alice.


----------



## Alice Bezemer

susan tuck said:


> I haven't seen Gillian make back handed comments about this country, but on the other hand you don't know Christopher either, and I do know him. *He is very well spoken and educated, *and also has made many good contributions to this forum. Just because you may disagree with him doesn't lessen his contributions. In person he is someone who is always helpful and is extremely knowledgeably about dogs and sport.
> 
> Your above post is no better than his, Alice.


What a shame he doesn't display these qualities on the forum in his replies... All that I have seen from his is snarky pilock replies, arrogance, moodswings galore and a general lack of any kind of character. 

I know my post is no better then his, I posted it for a reason tho and you illustrated my point perfectly, Susan. 

The very sad thing is tho, I have read his posts, and even agree with a few of them. He does in fact has a lot to contribute to this forum and has had many a valid point... Sad fact is tho that I would never be able to actually agree with him on any topic since any reply directed at him in way of talking workingdogs get turns into a snark fest! It even makes me bow out of many a topic and I suspect I am not the only one. Knowing that he sits there in wait, ready to pounce and act like a pillock. It is one thing, Susan, to be knowledgeable about something, it is an other to act like a prick each and every time you feel like it just because you feel you have a right to do so. 

Act like a prick and eventually someone will certainly start treating you like one....


----------



## Lee H Sternberg

maggie fraser said:


> As serious as this thread is; let's face it, when it comes to dog training and football (that's soccer to you big fat americans) the Europeans have it in the bag. Now, as they (Europeans except for german and swiss)  are generally good communicators, the issue we're having here is one simply of a cross of wires and language/culture misinterpretation. :lol:
> 
> Lighten up folks, there's plenty enough entertainment from the get go on this thread, we should all embrace diversity, maybe even the Australians too, maybe..


Lets start another fight, Maggie. 

Soccer is for PUSSIES who can't play real football.:razz:


----------



## Christopher Smith

Alice Bezemer said:


> What a shame he doesn't display these qualities on the forum in his replies... All that I have seen from his is snarky pilock replies, arrogance, moodswings galore and a general lack of any kind of character.


But then it's turned into....



> The very sad thing is tho, I have read his posts, and even agree with a few of them. He does in fact has a lot to contribute to this forum and has had many a valid point... .


So which one is it? It can't be both ways.:razz:

I've notice that the people touting the euro superiority in training have never been to the US so how do you base your conclusions? *ESPECIALLY WHEN NONE OF THEM HAS EVER TRAINED IN THE US.* The only info they have to base your conclusions on is trial results. And that's were they done goofed. 

In the US there are approximately 5,000 people doing IPO, per the AWDF. In comparison the VDH claims about 110,000 doing IPO. Mind you that is just the number in Germany. I don't have the numbers for other European countries but I think it's a fair underestimation to add another 50,000. So for our purposes here today lets say there are 160,000 people doing IPO in Europe. That's 5,000 vs 160,000. 

When you milk a cow the milk separates and the cream floats to the top. The more milk you have the more cream you have. Europe has more milk so they have more cream/top notch trainers than the US. This is simple to see, but only the simple minded stop there. Sometimes you have a line of cows that produce higher quality milk and thus they produce a higher percentage of cream. That's what the US is doing in IPO. Looking at the numbers alone, there should be no way that an American should ever do well in international competition. Yet we are there. That's because the overall *average* dog trainer is better here in the US than in Europe.

Also you have to take into account where the international competitions are held. Traveling on an airplane across the Atlantic for takes a toll on both dogs and handler. I just got an earful from a European friend about how hard it was to travel to the US to do the WUSV. He said he never though it could take so much out of a dog and he never really considered the disadvantage non European handlers were at. But the trial results don't point that out do they?

Lastly, we have to look at who is running the trials. Did everyone forget when they the Germans screwed over Ivan Balabanov at the FMBB and got banned from competition for a year? Do you really think that was a one off thing and that politics don't influence scores?

Anecdotally, I have been to a lot of European clubs. And the training ON AVERAGE is simply not as high. Sure there is some of the best cream I have ever seen at those clubs, no doubt about it. But on average I think the US has better trainers than Europe. 

So let's not just look at the surface. Let's shine the lights into the dark corners. Any one of you that wants to come and see American training I welcome you. I will set up a tour for you in any part of the country. I will even find places for you to stay for free or cheap. I will loan you a car in the Los Angeles area. I will do everything I can to show you what we are doing here. Then feel free to form opinions. But until you come here and see for yourself you are only speaking from ignorance. 

Prick out.


----------



## Tiago Fontes

Christopher Smith said:


> But then it's turned into....
> 
> 
> 
> So which one is it? It can't be both ways.:razz:
> 
> I've notice that the people touting the euro superiority in training have never been to the US so how do you base your conclusions? *ESPECIALLY WHEN NONE OF THEM HAS EVER TRAINED IN THE US.* The only info they have to base your conclusions on is trial results. And that's were they done goofed.
> 
> In the US there are approximately 5,000 people doing IPO, per the AWDF. In comparison the VDH claims about 110,000 doing IPO. Mind you that is just the number in Germany. I don't have the numbers for other European countries but I think it's a fair underestimation to add another 50,000. So for our purposes here today lets say there are 160,000 people doing IPO in Europe. That's 5,000 vs 160,000.
> 
> When you milk a cow the milk separates and the cream floats to the top. The more milk you have the more cream you have. Europe has more milk so they have more cream/top notch trainers than the US. This is simple to see, but only the simple minded stop there. Sometimes you have a line of cows that produce higher quality milk and thus they produce a higher percentage of cream. That's what the US is doing in IPO. Looking at the numbers alone, there should be no way that an American should ever do well in international competition. Yet we are there. That's because the overall *average* dog trainer is better here in the US than in Europe.
> 
> Also you have to take into account where the international competitions are held. Traveling on an airplane across the Atlantic for takes a toll on both dogs and handler. I just got an earful from a European friend about how hard it was to travel to the US to do the WUSV. He said he never though it could take so much out of a dog and he never really considered the disadvantage non European handlers were at. But the trial results don't point that out do they?
> 
> Lastly, we have to look at who is running the trials. Did everyone forget when they the Germans screwed over Ivan Balabanov at the FMBB and got banned from competition for a year? Do you really think that was a one off thing and that politics don't influence scores?
> 
> Anecdotally, I have been to a lot of European clubs. And the training ON AVERAGE is simply not as high. Sure there is some of the best cream I have ever seen at those clubs, no doubt about it. But on average I think the US has better trainers than Europe.
> 
> So let's not just look at the surface. Let's shine the lights into the dark corners. Any one of you that wants to come and see American training I welcome you. I will set up a tour for you in any part of the country. I will even find places for you to stay for free or cheap. I will loan you a car in the Los Angeles area. I will do everything I can to show you what we are doing here. Then feel free to form opinions. But until you come here and see for yourself you are only speaking from ignorance.
> 
> Prick out.



I've been there, Christopher. There is no dog culture in the US. If you want to see TRUE dog culture, go to Holland, Belgium, Germany... With true dog culture and tradition, there are more trainers available, more handlers, more dogs, more techniques, more diversity...more obstacles to overcome. With more obstacles to overcome, trainers get more exposure to different tricks, different dogs and as a consequence, become better. 

I disagree with your views.


----------



## Christopher Smith

Tiago Fontes said:


> I've been there, Christopher. There is no dog culture in the US. If you want to see TRUE dog culture, go to Holland, Belgium, Germany...
> 
> I disagree with your views.


I have been to all of those countries. Where did you go in the US? What clubs did you visit?


----------



## Tiago Fontes

Christopher Smith said:


> I have been to all of those countries. Where did you go in the US? What clubs did you visit?


I have been to 18 states and seen enough. I am not going to publicly post names of clubs or people I have been with, especially in a thread like this. One thing is for sure, I have been very well treated, always.

Hope that's clear.


----------



## Gillian Schuler

Christopher, you are avoiding the issue.

On the one hand, I admire your loyalty to your fellow dog handlers but on the other hand, you have not brought one concrete fact as to why US dog trainers are better than those in Europe or Scandinavia. 


Such comments as “travelling on an aeroplane across the Atlantic” could also apply to SAR dogs who are afterwards expected to “give of their best” to search out injured or corpses.

If a dog cannot cope with this, he cannot cope with the task given afterwards, be this sport or otherwise. 

I must honestly say, as regards dog sports, my loyalty is to myself. I buy my dog where I find it best, be this Switzerland or Germany. Three of my dogs I bought in Germany, one in Switzerland and one in England. One has to have an open mind.

Some of our judges in Switzerland and Germany have judged at WUSV trials. I know some of them personally.

Some of our club members have taken part in WUSV trials, also in the US. One of our club members was the Judge in protection in the US one or two years ago. I know him personally. 

Do you really think that an international judge cannot see beyond the performance of the dog through to the training?

You say that I have backhanded and negatively consistently made comments about your country. 

I would ask you to retract this as it is not true. 

What is true with you?


----------



## Frank La Fauci

Hi all,
Let’s all have a group hug and stop this negativity.. after all we are all working dog lovers!! BUT I have to say this FIRST Australia have the best dogs and trainers in the world. (JOKE)
 Wishing you all a merry Christmas and happy new year!!!!!


----------



## Gillian Schuler

Hi

Wouldn't be a bad idea!!

I for one will second this. It's time to call a truce. 

All who second this too, sign in the next post [-o<


----------



## Frank La Fauci

Finally I have my pup HOOT HOOT


----------



## Christopher Jones

Christopher Smith said:


> But then it's turned into....
> 
> 
> 
> So which one is it? It can't be both ways.:razz:
> 
> I've notice that the people touting the euro superiority in training have never been to the US so how do you base your conclusions? *ESPECIALLY WHEN NONE OF THEM HAS EVER TRAINED IN THE US.* The only info they have to base your conclusions on is trial results. And that's were they done goofed.
> 
> In the US there are approximately 5,000 people doing IPO, per the AWDF. In comparison the VDH claims about 110,000 doing IPO. Mind you that is just the number in Germany. I don't have the numbers for other European countries but I think it's a fair underestimation to add another 50,000. So for our purposes here today lets say there are 160,000 people doing IPO in Europe. That's 5,000 vs 160,000.
> 
> When you milk a cow the milk separates and the cream floats to the top. The more milk you have the more cream you have. Europe has more milk so they have more cream/top notch trainers than the US. This is simple to see, but only the simple minded stop there. Sometimes you have a line of cows that produce higher quality milk and thus they produce a higher percentage of cream. That's what the US is doing in IPO. Looking at the numbers alone, there should be no way that an American should ever do well in international competition. Yet we are there. That's because the overall *average* dog trainer is better here in the US than in Europe.
> 
> Also you have to take into account where the international competitions are held. Traveling on an airplane across the Atlantic for takes a toll on both dogs and handler. I just got an earful from a European friend about how hard it was to travel to the US to do the WUSV. He said he never though it could take so much out of a dog and he never really considered the disadvantage non European handlers were at. But the trial results don't point that out do they?
> 
> Lastly, we have to look at who is running the trials. Did everyone forget when they the Germans screwed over Ivan Balabanov at the FMBB and got banned from competition for a year? Do you really think that was a one off thing and that politics don't influence scores?
> 
> Anecdotally, I have been to a lot of European clubs. And the training ON AVERAGE is simply not as high. Sure there is some of the best cream I have ever seen at those clubs, no doubt about it. But on average I think the US has better trainers than Europe.
> 
> So let's not just look at the surface. Let's shine the lights into the dark corners. Any one of you that wants to come and see American training I welcome you. I will set up a tour for you in any part of the country. I will even find places for you to stay for free or cheap. I will loan you a car in the Los Angeles area. I will do everything I can to show you what we are doing here. Then feel free to form opinions. But until you come here and see for yourself you are only speaking from ignorance.
> 
> Prick out.


You can say the USA punches above its weight, but anyone could say that. Here in Australia we have about 30 people, maybe, who actively train in IPO. One person, who was a normal trainer here and not more sucessful than anyone else here in IPO, took his Australian bred, trained and owned dog to Germany to trial. He ended winning the biggest state trial in Germany and qualified for the DVG Meistershaft. He beat out some 1200 dogs. Now pound for pound that would put Australia above the US or even Germany. Now in reality we dont compare at all, but we can make a case, how foolish it might be, that we do.
Japan won the Worlds once i recall and i think they have one club and about 5 club members. But they did it with a titled and imported dog from Belgium.
Now no one is going to say by default that Japan has better trainers than Europe or even the US.
When i look at US teams there are a number who have bought and compete with titled dogs imported from Europe. In fact most of your training knowedge, and all your breeding stock goes back to Europe, as does everyones. In 20 years time you guys, and us over here, will still be importing dogs and bringing trainers over for seminars. 
As it stands dogsport in Europe is more than IPO. Its French Ring, NVBK, Mondio, KNPV as well. There is no one in the states that competes at any real high level at those sports. 
Sure you can be proud of the dogs and trainers kicking around in your country but dont see something thats not there. And for the record, my country is no shining light.


----------



## Christopher Jones

Michael Murphy said:


> whats the definition of serious here?


I would have thought the word serious would have been pretty self explanitory.
If a dog like Jary is bitting you Michael, trust me, you would think shit was getting pretty serious. Stop listening to nuff nuffs over there in NSW about what serious dogs are. Few would know.
You need to forget everything you have been told and start learning from scratch.
Have you been to the club yet?


----------



## Connie Sutherland

A truce would be awesome! 8)



Here's a quote .... maybe it could be a path back to the thread. (Just a thought!  )

_"You need to forget everything you have been told and start learning from scratch. Have you been to the club yet?"_


----------



## Christopher Smith

Christopher Jones said:


> You can say the USA punches above its weight, but anyone could say that. Here in Australia we have about 30 people, maybe, who actively train in IPO. One person, who was a normal trainer here and not more sucessful than anyone else here in IPO, took his Australian bred, trained and owned dog to Germany to trial. He ended winning the biggest state trial in Germany and qualified for the DVG Meistershaft. He beat out some 1200 dogs. Now pound for pound that would put Australia above the US or even Germany. Now in reality we dont compare at all, but we can make a case, how foolish it might be, that we do.
> Japan won the Worlds once i recall and i think they have one club and about 5 club members. But they did it with a titled and imported dog from Belgium.
> Now no one is going to say by default that Japan has better trainers than Europe or even the US.
> When i look at US teams there are a number who have bought and compete with titled dogs imported from Europe. In fact most of your training knowedge, and all your breeding stock goes back to Europe, as does everyones. In 20 years time you guys, and us over here, will still be importing dogs and bringing trainers over for seminars.
> As it stands dogsport in Europe is more than IPO. Its French Ring, NVBK, Mondio, KNPV as well. There is no one in the states that competes at any real high level at those sports.
> Sure you can be proud of the dogs and trainers kicking around in your country but dont see something thats not there. And for the record, my country is no shining light.




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----------



## Christopher Smith

Christopher Jones said:


> You can say the USA punches above its weight, but anyone could say that. Here in Australia we have about 30 people, maybe, who actively train in IPO. One person, who was a normal trainer here and not more sucessful than anyone else here in IPO, took his Australian bred, trained and owned dog to Germany to trial. He ended winning the biggest state trial in Germany and qualified for the DVG Meistershaft. He beat out some 1200 dogs. Now pound for pound that would put Australia above the US or even Germany. Now in reality we dont compare at all, but we can make a case, how foolish it might be, that we do.
> Japan won the Worlds once i recall and i think they have one club and about 5 club members. But they did it with a titled and imported dog from Belgium.
> Now no one is going to say by default that Japan has better trainers than Europe or even the US.
> When i look at US teams there are a number who have bought and compete with titled dogs imported from Europe. In fact most of your training knowedge, and all your breeding stock goes back to Europe, as does everyones. In 20 years time you guys, and us over here, will still be importing dogs and bringing trainers over for seminars.
> As it stands dogsport in Europe is more than IPO. Its French Ring, NVBK, Mondio, KNPV as well. There is no one in the states that competes at any real high level at those sports.
> Sure you can be proud of the dogs and trainers kicking around in your country but dont see something thats not there. And for the record, my country is no shining light.


Do you think that the guys winning in Europe are all raising the dogs that they train? What's the difference between a German buying an 18 month old dog and an American? Remember that we are talking about training. 

Every country that a breed didn't originate in is working with imports. 

You are wrong about Japan's number of clubs and handlers. Check your research.

Lastly Australia winning a national trial once is much different than Americans winning year after year. One is an anomaly. Many is a pattern.

KNPV and NVBK are not available in the US. If we are taking them into consideration why not PSA and AWD? No Europeans have ever achived those titles, so they suck right? 

Christopher have you ever been to the US and trained?



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----------



## David Baker

boy did this thread take a turn. Went from trying to make sure Michael Murphy doesn't F up his pup, to a internet WWIII. LoL.. A good read, none the less.


----------



## Christopher Jones

Christopher Jones said:


> You can say the USA punches above its weight, but anyone could say that. Here in Australia we have about 30 people, maybe, who actively train in IPO. One person, who was a normal trainer here and not more sucessful than anyone else here in IPO, took his Australian bred, trained and owned dog to Germany to trial. He ended winning the biggest state trial in Germany and qualified for the DVG Meistershaft. He beat out some 1200 dogs. Now pound for pound that would put Australia above the US or even Germany. Now in reality we dont compare at all, but we can make a case, how foolish it might be, that we do.
> Japan won the Worlds once i recall and i think they have one club and about 5 club members. But they did it with a titled and imported dog from Belgium.
> Now no one is going to say by default that Japan has better trainers than Europe or even the US.
> When i look at US teams there are a number who have bought and compete with titled dogs imported from Europe. In fact most of your training knowedge, and all your breeding stock goes back to Europe, as does everyones. In 20 years time you guys, and us over here, will still be importing dogs and bringing trainers over for seminars.
> As it stands dogsport in Europe is more than IPO. Its French Ring, NVBK, Mondio, KNPV as well. There is no one in the states that competes at any real high level at those sports.
> Sure you can be proud of the dogs and trainers kicking around in your country but dont see something thats not there. And for the record, my country is no shining light.


I unfortunately havent been to the states, and nor am I trying to disrespect the achievements that the IPO people have achieved. There is another issue you need to bare in mind. Lets consider GSDs and Schutzhund for an example. The standard between the BSP and the WUSV needs to be addressed when assessing what an achievement is worth. The standard and quality if dog and training in the BSP is far higher than a WUSV field. Outside the top Germans and Belgians the standard drops of big time when you get to the minnow countries like Korea, Canada, Agentina etc, where as the BSP bats far deeper. So much so that alot of Germans care more about the BSP than the WUSV and most of the best Germans dont go to the WUSV. 
Its great that you are proud of your countries dog sport community, but its a big call to say that the USA has better trainers than Europe.


----------



## Kevin Cyr

David Baker said:


> boy did this thread take a turn. Went from trying to make sure Michael Murphy doesn't F up his pup, to a internet WWIII. LoL.. A good read, none the less.


don't worry he will **** her up


----------



## Katie Finlay

Kevin Cyr said:


> don't worry he will **** her up


*snort*


----------



## Doug Zaga

David Baker said:


> boy did this thread take a turn. Went from trying to make sure Michael Murphy doesn't F up his pup, to a internet WWIII. LoL.. A good read, none the less.


Yup!


----------



## Bob Scott

Lets get back on track.
These "my pecker is bigger then your pecker" get old fast!
This hasn't been about training help/suggestions in some time.


----------



## jamie lind

Bob Scott said:


> Lets get back on track.
> These "my pecker is bigger then your pecker" get old fast!
> This hasn't been about training help/suggestions in some time.


The only people that say that, are people with small peckers.  I think Cuba has the best dogs. Go Cuba.


----------



## Doug Zaga

Bob Scott said:


> Lets get back on track.
> These "*my pecker is bigger then your pecker*" get old fast!


 

Yeah, Alice and Maggie? :mrgreen:


----------



## Alice Bezemer

Doug Zaga said:


> Yeah, Alice and Maggie? :mrgreen:


My dog is a pecker, does that count? :lol:

BTW, have to insert this last bit and then I will leave it alone and fall in line with the "truce" folks.

This forum does not evolve around IPO alone, it is a forum of working dogs in all its venues and variations. Not one single person on this topic said anything about Europeans doing a better job at training or breeding or whatever.... All have a training that they enjoy and all are proud of their individual achievements in their sports. People like to think along about problems that are encountered during their sports and this should not be exclusive to one sports venue only! I as KNPV fan have issues that an IPO fan might have the perfect solution for! Someone in PPD might have problems that someone in Mondio might have a perfect solution for. Stop being so damn territorial about who does what, when and where! 

This topic was never about who is the best in what and why, it is not about americans being better or worse, germans being better or worse, europeans being better or worse... Everyone tries to get the best results with their dogs regardless of whatever venue they persue, they are proud of their achievement, however lacking they might appear to be in other peoples eyes. RESPECT! Stop seing everything as an attack and maybe topics would not get blown out of proportions to begin with. Respect what others try to achieve and respect people for having an opinion that doesn't always suit everyone but be respectful about it instead of lashing out and pointing fingers. **** statelines and countries, **** which country is better of more experianced... Celebrate the fact that all of these countries around the world have one thing in common, the love of working dogs in all its different shapes, forms, and sizes...

Christopher S.... I know I can't have it both ways but I can hope can't I?

I'm too damn old for schoolyard games.... You have many valid points and good posts, I just never speak to them as I do not want to get you breathing down my neck in anger again over some sort of slight that I am yet to find out what it is. You do not own the working dog world all by yourself, there are others that play in that sandbox as well. Hows about letting them have a say sometimes instead of jumping on them? Its easy to talk down to people or be demeaning, its a lot harder to treat them as fellow workingdog lovers and trainers and give them respect... its worth a shot tho, it might amaze you at how well it would be received and how much positive feedback you might get.

Its just an idea...


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## Gillian Schuler

Alice Bezemer said:


> My dog is a pecker, does that count? :lol:
> 
> BTW, have to insert this last bit and then I will leave it alone and fall in line with the "truce" folks.
> 
> This forum does not evolve around IPO alone, it is a forum of working dogs in all its venues and variations. Not one single person on this topic said anything about Europeans doing a better job at training or breeding or whatever.... All have a training that they enjoy and all are proud of their individual achievements in their sports. People like to think along about problems that are encountered during their sports and this should not be exclusive to one sports venue only! I as KNPV fan have issues that an IPO fan might have the perfect solution for! Someone in PPD might have problems that someone in Mondio might have a perfect solution for. Stop being so damn territorial about who does what, when and where!
> 
> This topic was never about who is the best in what and why, it is not about americans being better or worse, germans being better or worse, europeans being better or worse... Everyone tries to get the best results with their dogs regardless of whatever venue they persue, they are proud of their achievement, however lacking they might appear to be in other peoples eyes. RESPECT! Stop seing everything as an attack and maybe topics would not get blown out of proportions to begin with. Respect what others try to achieve and respect people for having an opinion that doesn't always suit everyone but be respectful about it instead of lashing out and pointing fingers. **** statelines and countries, **** which country is better of more experianced... Celebrate the fact that all of these countries around the world have one thing in common, the love of working dogs in all its different shapes, forms, and sizes...
> 
> Christopher S.... I know I can't have it both ways but I can hope can't I?
> 
> I'm too damn old for schoolyard games.... You have many valid points and good posts, I just never speak to them as I do not want to get you breathing down my neck in anger again over some sort of slight that I am yet to find out what it is. You do not own the working dog world all by yourself, there are others that play in that sandbox as well. Hows about letting them have a say sometimes instead of jumping on them? Its easy to talk down to people or be demeaning, its a lot harder to treat them as fellow workingdog lovers and trainers and give them respect... its worth a shot tho, it might amaze you at how well it would be received and how much positive feedback you might get.
> 
> *Its just an idea*...


But a very good one. Let's hope it sticks because it's not much fun coming on here otherwise.

I agree with all you say above.


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## maggie fraser

Lee H Sternberg said:


> Lets start another fight, Maggie.
> 
> Soccer is for PUSSIES who can't play real football.:razz:


Soccer is for those who are a few hundred years behind. :razz:

'Tis the season of good will, you'll need to pick a fight on another thread Lee.


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## Meg O'Donovan

+1 for interdisciplinary learning and crosscultural goodwill.


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## Joby Becker

videos Michael?


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## Alice Bezemer

Joby Becker said:


> videos Michael?


And you made me spit coffee over my keyboard! Thank you, Joby! :lol:


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## Matt Vandart

Yes! Videos!

C'mon I wanna wanna see this puppy play!


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## Lee H Sternberg

maggie fraser said:


> Soccer is for those who are a few hundred years behind. :razz:
> 
> 'Tis the season of good will, you'll need to pick a fight on another thread Lee.


I chose this one because it's the first descent flame war in a long time.\\/ 

Bob is getting pissed so lock up time is coming soon.:sad:


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## David Baker

I doubt mikey responds to the video requests. History has shown us that he only responds to the posts that sound like something he WANTS to hear. Thats why he ignored 99% of the good advice, and only acknowledged the posts that "told him how to do something." No need to keep hitting the refresh button, awaiting michaels videos. LoL

Carry on.


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## John Wolf

On the whole U.S. versus Europe thing. I look at it a little differently. I grew up wrestling (real wrestling...not the fake stuff). Two of the international powers of the sport are U.S. and Iran. They have two completely different styles that try to accomplish the same thing. American wrestlers are some of the most hard working and athletic people in the sport, and that is basically how they win, by wearing down their opponent or just being a better athlete. On the other hand, the Iranians are masters at technique. They win with their precision.

Now back to dog training, I have gone over to Germany and there is good training and bad just like here, but I also got some very different perspectives on some behaviors. I had a top-level trainer (not naming names) also say that the Obedience done is US is better than that of Germans, but, in his opinion, our tracking was not as good. 

I think you have to get over the issue of training being better anywhere, it is just different and I think we could all learn from each other. Kumbaya! hahaha


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## Christopher Jones

I think before people can say that American trainers are better than European then the US is going to need to stand up on their own two feet more. When I look at the 2013 USA WUSV team every dog was imported from Europe and the majority of them, most likely all of them, were trained and titled in Europe by Europeans before they were sold to the USA. 
By contrast top European trainers will tend not to buy and sell pups to compete with but will source a really nice 12-18 month old green dog with good hips and elbows to train up and compete with.
Thats what makes Ivan B stand out in that he breeds his own competition dogs and trials them. But Ivan doesnt really count as an American as the last time he competed he was representing Hungry, a European country .


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## John Wolf

I think you have a skewed understanding of the situation. Of all the dogs that I know of that have competed in the last few years in the WUSV, FMBB, FCI there are only 2 that I know were trained and titled in Europe before coming here. If there are more, I am just unaware of that. The top trainers I know in America either raise pups or buy 12-18 month old green dogs as you stated the Europeans do.


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## Thomas Barriano

Christopher Jones said:


> Thats what makes Ivan B stand out in that he breeds his own competition dogs and trials them. But Ivan doesnt really count as an American as the last time he competed he was representing Hungry, a European country .


Chris,

Ivan has represented Bulgaria, his birthplace.
Gabor Szilasi is the American Resident that has represented Hungary


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## Christopher Jones

John Wolf said:


> I think you have a skewed understanding of the situation. Of all the dogs that I know of that have competed in the last few years in the WUSV, FMBB, FCI there are only 2 that I know were trained and titled in Europe before coming here. If there are more, I am just unaware of that. The top trainers I know in America either raise pups or buy 12-18 month old green dogs as you stated the Europeans do.


That may be changing now to more HOT dogs in US teams. I just know how many titled dogs get sold to the US as competition dogs and historically how many top Euro dogs would represent the US at world level. I looked at the FCIs just then and saw that one of Tim Stacys bred Malis got 9th at the worlds. How cools that. Its good to see that. Ivan has showed yhat when you put the work in US kennel names can be held up against the Euro kennels. 
Im not trying to put shit on the US teams, im from Oz and we havent done shit of any note so its not a us vs them thing. But as a hobby/industry we do rely and feed off the European dogs and trainers.


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## Christopher Jones

Thomas Barriano said:


> Chris,
> 
> Ivan has represented Bulgaria, his birthplace.
> Gabor Szilasi is the American Resident that has represented Hungary


Yep your right.


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## Michael Murphy

Joby Becker said:


> videos Michael?


i think she is teething right now so i dont want to do tug work which she is very good at,

but im having another issue with her, she is not intersted in a ball at all, im so lost as what to do,i stuffed up by throwing a ball and then using that to distract her to get back into the house because she always tried to run in with me, and i think thats why when i throw the ball or even tug away she doesnt go after it ](*,) argh


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## Kevin Cyr

Michael Murphy said:


> i think she is teething right now so i dont want to do tug work which she is very good at,
> 
> but im having another issue with her, she is not intersted in a ball at all, im so lost as what to do,i stuffed up by throwing a ball and then using that to distract her to get back into the house because she always tried to run in with me, and i think thats why when i throw the ball or even tug away she doesnt go after it ](*,) argh


how is she good at it?


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## David Baker

You have associated the ball with something she doesn't like, i.e. being left outside. Never use something you want the dog to do, for something they dont like. Michael, you are going to ruin a potentially good dog. GO TO THE SCHH CLUB AND LET THEM TEACH YOU. Whenever you are not there, dont do anything training related b/c you dont know what youre doing. Until you do, as the saying goes, "leave it to the professionals." You need to just feed her, keep her warm, clean and safe. Thats it. Otherwise, youre going to do something else wrong and screw her up for good. 

Hell, maybe you need to screw her up. Trial by fire. Maybe you will learn from the mistakes and do better on the next dog. Idk. If you dont listen to the advice that people are giving you here, idk how youre going to listen to anyone else. 

Im sorry if i seem like a prick b/c im really not. Its just like a car guy seeing some kid grind the gears of a classic car or sports car, and they wont listen when he tries to tell the kid how to shift gears properly. The kid keeps on grinding and grinding but wonders why the clutch keeps slipping?? ITS B/C YOU DONT KNOW HOW TO DRIVE THE CAR, KID!

You get what im saying?


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## Bob Scott

Michael, I would also have to add the "Go to a club" suggestion. 
It's to easy for both sides of a "discussion" to misread what's being said. Then again, it's sometimes way to clear. ](*,):lol: :wink:


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## Tiago Fontes

Michael Murphy said:


> i think she is teething right now so i dont want to do tug work which she is very good at,
> 
> but im having another issue with her, she is not intersted in a ball at all, im so lost as what to do,i stuffed up by throwing a ball and then using that to distract her to get back into the house because she always tried to run in with me, and i think thats why when i throw the ball or even tug away she doesnt go after it ](*,) argh



How about a video of your "non biting GSD"? Pretty sure you're making the same mistakes with this pup that you did with the GSD. 

How old is the GSD?


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## Matt Vandart

FCUK the bitework vids show us some OB or just play?


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## Chris McDonald

Michael Murphy said:


> i think she is teething right now so i dont want to do tug work which she is very good at,
> 
> but im having another issue with her, she is not intersted in a ball at all, im so lost as what to do,i stuffed up by throwing a ball and then using that to distract her to get back into the house because she always tried to run in with me, and i think thats why when i throw the ball or even tug away she doesnt go after it ](*,) argh


 
This is awesome! How many times do you think you could trick the pup before it outsmarts you? The dog mirrors the owner and douche bag screams out loud in dogs… it’s a learned trait almost always.


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## Michael Murphy

David Baker said:


> You have associated the ball with something she doesn't like, i.e. being left outside. Never use something you want the dog to do, for something they dont like. Michael, you are going to ruin a potentially good dog. GO TO THE SCHH CLUB AND LET THEM TEACH YOU. Whenever you are not there, dont do anything training related b/c you dont know what youre doing. Until you do, as the saying goes, "leave it to the professionals." You need to just feed her, keep her warm, clean and safe. Thats it. Otherwise, youre going to do something else wrong and screw her up for good.
> 
> Hell, maybe you need to screw her up. Trial by fire. Maybe you will learn from the mistakes and do better on the next dog. Idk. If you dont listen to the advice that people are giving you here, idk how youre going to listen to anyone else.
> 
> Im sorry if i seem like a prick b/c im really not. Its just like a car guy seeing some kid grind the gears of a classic car or sports car, and they wont listen when he tries to tell the kid how to shift gears properly. The kid keeps on grinding and grinding but wonders why the clutch keeps slipping?? ITS B/C YOU DONT KNOW HOW TO DRIVE THE CAR, KID!
> 
> You get what im saying?


i know i know i wasnt suppose to but sometimes you get in a bad mood and do stupid shit, i do know what im doing in some things , i have owned dogs before.......
ill start going to the club at 7 months, the club closest to me is a 1.5 hour drive


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## David Baker

ok.. 7 months. Until then, DONT DO SHIT with that puppy. Feed, clean, and keep her warm. Give her toys to play with but don't do any training based play b/c you don't know what youre doing. Just b/c you've had dogs before, doesn't mean you've had working dogs or plan to train them.


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## Tiago Fontes

Michael Murphy said:


> i know i know i wasnt suppose to but sometimes you get in a bad mood and do stupid shit, i do know what im doing in some things , i have owned dogs before.......
> ill start going to the club at 7 months, the club closest to me is a 1.5 hour drive



Dude, let's see a video of you playing with the dogs...both GSD and Dutchie/Mali.


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## David Winners

Why not take the pup to the club a couple of times to get you started on the right path. 6 hours of driving now may save you 300 later. Even just having some experienced people show you proper play, luring, and interaction would help a lot. They can then watch you play and give you pointers on what you are doing right / wrong.

It's what I would do if I were in your situation.

David Winners


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## Michael Murphy

Tiago Fontes said:


> Dude, let's see a video of you playing with the dogs...both GSD and Dutchie/Mali.


i sold the gsd to a good home, i dont have anybody that will help me and i tried holding the camera and playing at the same time, it was not very good :roll:


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## Tiago Fontes

Michael Murphy said:


> i sold the gsd to a good home, i dont have anybody that will help me and i tried holding the camera and playing at the same time, it was not very good :roll:


Ok...

Just remember something: 

There is always something happening with you...Learn from this pattern and quit making excuses. 

Join the schH club, before you start doing anything. Until then, do as David Baker suggested.


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## Joby Becker

David Winners said:


> Why not take the pup to the club a couple of times to get you started on the right path. 6 hours of driving now may save you 300 later. Even just having some experienced people show you proper play, luring, and interaction would help a lot. They can then watch you play and give you pointers on what you are doing right / wrong.
> 
> It's what I would do if I were in your situation.
> 
> David Winners


it is very possible that a club is not the best option for learning about the type of things that can screw a dog up at the home...might be great might not be...

Michael, club or no club...you need to find 1 or 2 people that you can socialize with, spend time with, and make friends with, that know how to raise dogs properly and do foundation work with them, as well a do a little training... get a new best friend, one that knows something about working dogs. 

*It is true that reading 1000's of pages of stuff about dogs, watching 1000's of videos etc. does not help much if you cant actually apply any of the concepts or methods into what you are doing.*



just let pup be a pup...dont worry about bite work at all for now is my advice... not like you are going to be competing to win the championship with this dog from the sounds of it, considering your abilities, and lack of help in your area.

A dog of the breeding you have, if it is good should have very little problems doing bitework, whenever it is started, whether that be at 6 weeks, or 6 months, or 2 years of age.. it is very possible that the first time you get the dog with someone that knows what they are doing, that the dog will do great on its own, without you having to do much of anything yourself.

Slow Moe is now 11 months of age... I have not done any real bitework with her at all, I used a flirt pole a couple times to shoot that video I posted in the summer, and that is it.

My adult, did nothing with until 9-10 months of age. literally nothing...kennel dog...

sure you might lose out on some things, but the dog will be better off with doing nothing much in the way of work, if compared to you doing a bunch of things poorly with her.

play with the pup,,,take the pup to as many places as you can without causing negative experiences for it...teach it to like being active, climbing on stuff, jumping on stuff, and being with you having fun...that is what my suggestion is...work on a little OB, nothing super formal, unless you know what you are doing...use informal commands that will be different from what you will use when you start your formal commands, so you have a clean slate to use with new commands..

my advice, from a dog dude that does not compete in dogsports...


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## rick smith

i really can't figure out why so many people have bent over backwards to help someone who doesn't reciprocate...that REALLY puzzles me

i will NEVER give up on a dog but i know when to give up on their owners

Joby just made some good points too on the club aspect

but ANYONE, regardless of their previous dog experience, can get someone to use a cell phone camera and video them playing with a puppy in a few different settings, especially if you throw in a steak or a beer or a few bucks, and get some very good advice from a few people here who might still be willing to take the time to write it up.
- if that happens he WILL be helped and probably learn some better ways to play with a pup

* others may not agree, but i DO think you can learn a lot about a handler by watching them interact with a puppy, and to me that is a basic starting point in any training plan

maybe others will feel differently, but i don't get any images of what he posts about the pup anymore based on all the other things he has written in the past that don't add up, are not consistent, or clouded by what he has previously written about his gsd and can no longer be seen ](*,)](*,)

no comment on the mal vs rotty PPD post .... it's the holiday season


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## Alice Bezemer

I think Michael needs to just let the pup do its thing and stop worrying about making mistakes. His trying to prevent making mistakes is making it so that he will actually start making mistakes a lot more often.

Let me clue you in on a big secret Michael... We all make mistakes with our dogs. No matter how many years of training we have under our belts and how experianced we might be, we all make mistakes, small ones, big ones, stupid ones! Every new pup is a new challenge and it brings with it a nice new can of trouble for you to deal with. 

Do not let emotions cloud your vision, do not let frustration guide your actions! That is the best advice to give right now. Let her grow up and play and do things and in 7 months time go to that club and see what is what and how they can help you. Most mistakes can be fixed with some work Michael but let me try and imprint on you the fact that stupid can not be fixed! Mistakes made out of shear stupidity are mistakes that are hard to fix, not due to the dog but due to the owner. You need to adjust your views and start being smart here, do not expect your pup to do it for you. Let her be and raise her as a nice dog should be raised. If she bites now, she will bite in 7 months time as well. Stop worrying about drives and shit, they are not important. She has drive and will bite, thats all you need to know so now just let her grow up and wait for the time when you have someone with a good eye and experiance to fall back on and help you out.


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## Haz Othman

You can put the camera on a chair or ledge, then do your thing in view. I shoot all my vids like that. Show us the pup!


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## Meg O'Donovan

Michael Murphy said:


> i know i know i wasnt suppose to but sometimes you get in a bad mood and do stupid shit, i do know what im doing in some things , i have owned dogs before.......
> ill start going to the club at 7 months, the club closest to me is a 1.5 hour drive


Make the trip as a gift to your dogs. 1.5 hours drive is nothing. I do that round trip (3 hours) 2-3 times each week, at night, over snowy mountain passes, -20 degrees Celcius, white knuckle most of the way home due to ice and semi-trucks. I do it so my kids can train in winter at an indoor range with a good coach (they are on teams to compete in target-shooting at the national level). 

Michael, surely you will do this for your pup. It is well worth the effort. It will be good for the dog and you. You will meet some supportive people who will help you and your dog to become even better than you would alone. Your dog and you will be socialized. You will have a chance to observe and be observed. It will be win-win all the way round. All it takes is for you to find out which day they train, and go. With the amount of time you spend on this forum, take some of that time and get in a vehicle and go do it. It will probably be a lot more fun for you too. 

Don't sit around making excuses or delaying. Just find out the next time they meet and go. 

Great advice I received when I was young: _Don't listen to what they say. See what they do. 

*Michael, Just Do It.*_


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## Christopher Jones

Michael, stop talking.....its a trap.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

on which end?


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## Matt Vandart

.......Eh?


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## Sarah Platts

Hey, Michael, How about posting some videos of your pup? You guys should be rocking and it would be nice to see how things are progressing.


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