# IPO; "pull back" vs "pushing"



## Gerald Guay

Having been away from Schutzhund for quite a long time and then spending the last 3 years in French Ring I was quite surprised to have the IPO club's TD putting all the bitework emphasize on building up the "pull back". 

Can anyone explain to me the logic behind this? Personally I find it ugly and it gives the appearance of the dog trying to steal the prey rather that fight the decoy.

Thanks.

GG


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## Hunter Allred

Personally... If you can train a dog topull hard you can train him to push just as hard. Both mine pulled because I started in IPO and didn't know it mattered. Upon switching to suit work I trained them to push. Me personally, I just what them to fight hard whether it's pushing or pulling


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## susan tuck

Many years ago, someone once told me in schH our dogs are to arrest/hold/stop, not punish, so our dogs are encouraged to counter, opposition reflex.


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## Bob Scott

One of my GSDs would push/pull to counter the helper/decoy movements. I've had one helper tell me he didn't like it because it could make the helper/decoy look bad. That never made a bit of sense to me. If they cant move the dog correctly how is that the dog's fault?!


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## Joby Becker

pull. sets bite, much less chance of shifting grip, or "chewing", and allows dogs to use body and weight to "oppose" the helpers movement since they are actively using their bodies to try to control or hinder the helpers movement while biting the sleeve.

If I hold a tug, and the dog pushes it into me, unless I am attempting to push it back into the dog, the dog is not "opposing" me.

If I hold a tug and the dog is pulling on it, he could be attempting to oppose me, or he could just be attempting to gain control of the tug, or attempting to take it from me.

if a dog is pulling just for the sake of "opposing" the actions of the person, what happens if the person pushes the tug straight into the dog? I would think that the dog would then try to "push" the tug back into the person, would it not?

like the drives, you will see "some" dogs "oppose" the helper straight on, if the helper is attempting to drive through the dog, and not just taking the dog for a ride leaving the dog to pull as the only option. some dogs will automatically shift if they can to "oppose" the helper by attempting to pull the sleeve out of position.


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## Paul Cipparone

I agree with both Joby & Susan , the job of the dog is to stop the aggressor , not go along for the ride. Today when the decoy does the escape routine , he often holds the sleeve out for the dog to bite , & the dogs hang on like a wet rag , in no way impeding the escape , ( just along for the ride ). 
I was entered in a schH11 trial in Ohio,many years ago, & the dog was sent on the long bite, picked the decoy up & shook the [email protected]#$ out of him not allowing him to drive. The judge said to me , he hasn't seen a dog fight the man like this in a long time, as he should control the decoy. 
His words to me were " to control the decoy is to control the judge"
Judges name was Wiegert from Germany. Ohio Hundesport club.


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## Hunter Allred

Paul Cipparone said:


> I agree with both Joby & Susan , the job of the dog is to stop the aggressor , not go along for the ride. Today when the decoy does the escape routine , he often holds the sleeve out for the dog to bite , & the dogs hang on like a wet rag , in no way impeding the escape , ( just along for the ride ).
> I was entered in a schH11 trial in Ohio,many years ago, & the dog was sent on the long bite, picked the decoy up & shook the [email protected]#$ out of him not allowing him to drive. The judge said to me , he hasn't seen a dog fight the man like this in a long time, as he should control the decoy.
> His words to me were " to control the decoy is to control the judge"
> Judges name was Wiegert from Germany. Ohio Hundesport club.


SchH11 is a whole different ballgame though \\/


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## Gerald Guay

Thanks everyone for your responses.

Joby your point of view makes so much sense thank you.

I also got a great reply through a PM. Hope the person adds his reply here.

Thanks again as my question has been answered.

GG


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## Paul Cipparone

I have taught all the dogs that have come to me for training, as well as my own to " fight the man (aggressor) . And to think when they pull the aggressors arm , leg , they will only come away with material the aggressor is wearing is a joke .Taught to bite correctly , they will break bone , & flesh. I have never heard of any would be aggressors to where hard sleeves under their jackets.


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## Howard Gaines III

In the wild, canines push into the prey and then pull back to take them down. The kill bite is in soft flesh...so why shouldn't a dog push into the sleeve and then pull back? Unless the helper can't stand up and is made to look bad by a better worker...the DOG! \\/


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## Marcel Winter

See many dogs in IPO pulling

KNPV people like and learn the dogs pushing bitework reason is police dog with a pushing civil bite is less damage as dog who is pulling.


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## Faisal Khan

When you get a live bite, better hope the dog does not pull!


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## Christopher Smith

A dog doing what it is trained to do for a sport has nothing to do with what a dog does naturally, in the wild or when working "for real". 

I teach my dogs to push/oppose not because it shows a lot on the sport field but because it creates a pushy more forward attitude in the dog overall.


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## Mark Herzog

Paul Cipparone said:


> I have taught all the dogs that have come to me for training, as well as my own to " fight the man (aggressor) . And to think when they pull the aggressors arm , leg , they will only come away with material the aggressor is wearing is a joke .Taught to bite correctly , they will break bone , & flesh. *I have never heard of any would be aggressors to where hard sleeves under their jackets*.


I have been told of instances where 'homemade sleeves' were being used if bangers knew dogs would be present at/used by their targets. Supposedly this was quite common a few years ago.

I did not see this personally but was told by someone who was familiar with this and who trained/deployed dogs there at the time. It was a few years ago, in the Chicago area.

Having said that, a street dog needs to "fight"... to me this means push/pull/whatever it takes. At times my dogs will pull and at other times they will push... they react to what the target is doing.

For a sport dog it's all about the sport you are working... you do whatever the sport expects... you work for points.


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## Howard Gaines III

Mark Herzog said:


> ...
> For a sport dog it's all about the sport you are working... you do whatever the sport expects... you work for points.


 I agree 100%, you teach the venue that you're working in. =D>


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## Paul Cipparone

Agreed , but not many bangers wear jocks, or upper leg protection. Big arteries in the upper leg areas, not to mention the family jewels.Most bad guys like to present the arm , oops if the dog is trained on the legs or crotch area.
Just an opinion, that i know works for real.


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## Indira Raichoudhury

Gerald Guay said:


> Having been away from Schutzhund for quite a long time and then spending the last 3 years in French Ring I was quite surprised to have the IPO club's TD putting all the bitework emphasize on building up the "pull back".
> 
> Can anyone explain to me the logic behind this? Personally I find it ugly and it gives the appearance of the dog trying to steal the prey rather that fight the decoy.
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> GG


Apologize in advance if this is not on point. Our club disbanded over this training issue and our President and VP (his wife) moved to near Denver to be near the High Plains Club trainer to avoid this exact issue. We had a trainer that was rewarding the dogs when they backed off the sleeve. He taught them to take steps back from the decoy before they got the bite. He said, "they have to learn to respect me." They never learned to actively guard and that the bark and hold was a way to control the decoy. Instead it became begging and performing for a bite. We did not obtain the kinds of dogs with high civil aggression at the expense all of us went to in order to have "performers" who may get points but in real life do not understand they control the man, his movement and they are to dominate the decoy/bad guy. As a single female with three high drive male working dogs, I had to make a choice to stop training (bad training) in order to preserve what my dogs were born with, and that is, an instinct to defend, to fight and to dominate when faced with a real threat. I don't want a dog that just performs without the mindset that he is going to win, he is in control and he will bring the fight to the man. Sadly, this training issue and the lack of trainers where I am means I have many thousands worth of dog that had their potential limited only by me just as guardian pets who will never get titled. However, they have stopped an armed fleeing felon and held a semi nude criminal in my yard for 25 minutes until the police arrived to arrest him. He dared not move, even knowing the police were on their way. The dogs brought the fight to him instead of backing off and "dancing" with him. For my own physical safety (I could not afford to move to Denver) I elected to stop that kind of training because I felt it detracted from the dogs' mindset and from the very reason I got these kinds of dogs in the first place.


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## Paul Cipparone

Here , Here , well said . Where i live we cannot carry guns , as i have said to many U.S. border guards , when i cross into the U.S. for competitions. " I say this is my gun ,you have yours on your hip" end of story.Best you find another trainer . Too many hack trainers out there.


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## susan tuck

Indira Raichoudhury said:


> Apologize in advance if this is not on point. Our club disbanded over this training issue and our President and VP (his wife) moved to near Denver to be near the High Plains Club trainer to avoid this exact issue. We had a trainer that was rewarding the dogs when they backed off the sleeve. He taught them to take steps back from the decoy before they got the bite. He said, "they have to learn to respect me." They never learned to actively guard and that the bark and hold was a way to control the decoy. Instead it became begging and performing for a bite. We did not obtain the kinds of dogs with high civil aggression at the expense all of us went to in order to have "performers" who may get points but in real life do not understand they control the man, his movement and they are to dominate the decoy/bad guy. As a single female with three high drive male working dogs, I had to make a choice to stop training (bad training) in order to preserve what my dogs were born with, and that is, an instinct to defend, to fight and to dominate when faced with a real threat. I don't want a dog that just performs without the mindset that he is going to win, he is in control and he will bring the fight to the man. Sadly, this training issue and the lack of trainers where I am means I have many thousands worth of dog that had their potential limited only by me just as guardian pets who will never get titled. However, they have stopped an armed fleeing felon and held a semi nude criminal in my yard for 25 minutes until the police arrived to arrest him. He dared not move, even knowing the police were on their way. The dogs brought the fight to him instead of backing off and "dancing" with him. For my own physical safety (I could not afford to move to Denver) I elected to stop that kind of training because I felt it detracted from the dogs' mindset and from the very reason I got these kinds of dogs in the first place.


A dog pulling/countering is not at all the same thing as a dog backing off, nor is it teaching a dog to "beg" or "dance" for the sleeve. I'm sorry for what you went through with your club, sounds like a real waste of time.


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## Christopher Smith

susan tuck said:


> A dog pulling/countering is not at all the same thing as a dog backing off, nor is it teaching a dog to "beg" or "dance" for the sleeve.


 I disagree with you on this. I think that at some level, most of the dogs pulling are backing off. They are avoiding contact and proximity to the helper. I understand that their are some very successful and talented people that train a dog to pull back and overall the dogs they train are confident. But a dog that is consistently is pulling? That comes from insecurity at some level. That's why you NEVER see a dog that lacks confidence pushing. They simply are not capable of it. I have never seen a dog go from pushing to coming off the sleeve in my life. But every single dog that I have ever seen run in a trial was pulling. 

I'm open to having my mind changed on this. If anyone has a video of a weak dog that was also a strong pushing dog I would like to see it.


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## Gerald Guay

Christopher Smith said:


> That's why you NEVER see a dog that lacks confidence pushing. They simply are not capable of it. I have never seen a dog go from pushing to coming off the sleeve in my life. But every single dog that I have ever seen run in a trial was pulling.


And that is why I stated in my original post that it "looks ugly". In some dogs there are short jerky movements, sometimes with the bite shifting to the front teeth, and the dog putting the greatest distance possible between himself and the decoy and pulling from there. "Ugly" for sure.

GG


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## Indira Raichoudhury

I know most of you are speaking of pulling or pushing on the bite as opposed to before getting the bite as a reaction to decoy movements. I guess I have no problem if the mindset of the dog is to control. However some decoys/trainers take it personally if the dog pushes them around and that is why our bad trainer situation arose. The downside to his training was as described AND both of my dogs responded to his efforts to get them to back off was to bite him in the chest and stomach off the equipment. Unfortunately, one of my dogs that was only 8 months old when he was doing this suddenly developed a chewy grip because he was torn between the sleeve and wanting to actually bite him off the sleeve. Armin Winkler wrote a great article, "Getting A Grip" about this http://www.schutzhundvillage.com/grip.html


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## Jerry Ross

I would suggest the best way to see if your dog is "fighting the bad guy" or playing tug of war for a rag is to simply have the decoy slip the sleeve off. I don't mean to offend anyone, but some of you need a wake up call regarding "what" your dog is really doing when he is on the sleeve.


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## jack van strien

Let us not forget we are talking about IPO and not about pp dogs or service dogs.
Imo a dog that pushes in IPO will lose points because he is chewing,if he is trying to get more bite or not it does not matter.The dog should have a dry bite.It is easier to teach a dog to pull this way,if he ever rebites he will lose the sleeve and game over.
You will have to practice to obtain the highest amount of points,if you don't like the rules then you will have to find another venue.
I do not believe it means the more your dog pulls the weaker he is because he is trying to get away from the decoy,he is playing the game according to what you tell him the rules are.


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga

How can something that is taught be sign of strong nerves? All the Dutch malis I've seen from knpv lines pull when doing IPO routines. And many knpv dogs pull on toys as puppies but are them conditioned to push in training. Also most Gsds in knpv push and they all have IPO pulling style parents. Pushing or pulling is a preference. More important factors would be the grip and dogs general behavior while biting. 
Personally if I had my dog on a bad guy in the dark I'd rather have him pill him to me than push and get killed trying to fight simeone three times his size.
A lot of pulling dogs take the sleeve back to the helper,how can that be a dig that is worried 

Just saying




Christopher Smith said:


> I disagree with you on this. I think that at some level, most of the dogs pulling are backing off. They are avoiding contact and proximity to the helper. I understand that their are some very successful and talented people that train a dog to pull back and overall the dogs they train are confident. But a dog that is consistently is pulling? That comes from insecurity at some level. That's why you NEVER see a dog that lacks confidence pushing. They simply are not capable of it. I have never seen a dog go from pushing to coming off the sleeve in my life. But every single dog that I have ever seen run in a trial was pulling.
> 
> I'm open to having my mind changed on this. If anyone has a video of a weak dog that was also a strong pushing dog I would like to see it.


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## jack van strien

Chris and Obi you are both right but maybe it does need a bit more explaining.In KNPV over the last decade or so there is a big push towards.... pushing.I agree with Chris that you will not often see a weak dog trying to get at the bones of the decoy because that is what pushing is all about imo.
This does not mean however that a dog who pulls for all he is worth is a weak dog.
In LE it is better to have a dog pulling because of obvious reasons i would think.
I do not really know why many people in KNPV now prefer a dog who pushes,it does not get you more points but the dog looks more serious?
If Chris's theory stands then would a pushing dog who is being overwhelmed by the decoy pull first before he will let go?
A pushing dog is a lot easier to work for a decoy but it hurts a hell of a lot more!!!
A dog attacking livestock(sheep) will pull first to slow the prey down and prefent from escaping and only after the prey is immobilized will resort to eating the beast.
A lot more to say and i look forward to seeing some more replies.


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## Christopher Smith

Oluwatobi Odunuga said:


> How can something that is taught be sign of strong nerves?


I don't know. I didn't say anything about "nerves".



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## Christopher Smith

jack van strien said:


> If Chris's theory stands then would a pushing dog who is being overwhelmed by the decoy pull first before he will let go?


1. Not a theory. It's a fact. 

2. Yes. When a dog that pushes runs they they start pulling first. 



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## Oluwatobi Odunuga

I meant proof that the dog wants to fight. That would imply that almost all nvbk dogs were fight driven and want to fight the man when in fact they could just be having fun. Just curious since most pushers do so due to conditioning. 




Christopher Smith said:


> I don't know. I didn't say anything about "nerves".
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## Daniel Lybbert

I have been thinking about this a fair bit lately. I got a dog when I started bit work he pulled like crazy. So much so I could barely stand up. It was hard to try and work him. I think he is a confident dog. He wasn't confident on the bite because he didn't know what to do or the game. I spent lots of time and he still doesn't push like a NVBK dog. His grip is set. When the decoy give up just a bit he will bite harder and bigger with a shake. He is still the same dog as before. But he is more confident in his work. I have a litter of puppies right now and I will train one to pull the decoy off his feet. It will be a pain to work when he is bigger. It will be cool to watch decoys struggle to keep on their feet. If they are struggling to keep their feet they wont be trying to beat my dog. 
I think a good dog can be taught to do anything.


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## jan becker

Hy all, i am from the Netherlands so forgive me the bad typing. The normal thing for a dog is to phus to make sure he has a good grip befor he /she can pull.
Talking about IPO whe need a strong and clean bite, thats why whe like pulling dogs so the have no chance to bite over and over again


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## Christopher Smith

Oluwatobi Odunuga said:


> I meant proof that the dog wants to fight. That would imply that almost all nvbk dogs were fight driven and want to fight the man when in fact they could just be having fun. Just curious since most pushers do so due to conditioning.


When did I say anything about fight? Maybe you could understand what I'm saying if you actually read what I wrote and didn't add your own interpretations.


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## Bob Scott

Jan Becker, please post a bit of information about yourself in the Member bio's forum here.

http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f20/



It's a a WDF requirement. 
Thanks
WDF Moderators


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## Howard Gaines III

Christopher Smith said:


> ... But a dog that is consistently is pulling? That comes from insecurity at some level. That's why you NEVER see a dog that lacks confidence pushing. They simply are not capable of it. I have never seen a dog go from pushing to coming off the sleeve in my life. But every single dog that I have ever seen run in a trial was pulling.
> 
> I'm open to having my mind changed on this. If anyone has a video of a weak dog that was also a strong pushing dog I would like to see it.


 Ever watch two dominate puppies play for the ownership of a rag? What do they do? The untrained young ones PULL! How is that insecure? Being insecure has never entered any of my dogs minds and they push into the bite and pull, wanting to pull you to the ground.


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## Howard Gaines III

jan becker said:


> Hy all, i am from the Netherlands so forgive me the bad typing. The normal thing for a dog is to phus to make sure he has a good grip befor he /she can pull.
> Talking about IPO whe need a strong and clean bite, thats why whe like pulling dogs so the have no chance to bite over and over again



Jan this is true...one that pushes in goes into the sleeve or suit to optain a *full bite*.
Once the bite has been obtained, the pulling action is what controls, sets the teeth into the flesh, suit, or sleeve.
Nerve bags or poorly trained dogs will push and give piano or typewriter bites because the bite is not set deep.
I want to see a full, hard bite the first time in and a pulling action to own the decoy. How many weak nerve dogs enter full and hard to show ownership? I haven't seen or worked many...


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## Joby Becker

Howard Gaines III said:


> Ever watch two dominate puppies play for the ownership of a rag? What do they do? The untrained young ones PULL! How is that insecure? Being insecure has never entered any of my dogs minds and they push into the bite and pull, wanting to pull you to the ground.


the dominant puppy lets go of the rag and grabs the other puppy by the head.


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## Christopher Smith

Howard Gaines III said:


> Ever watch two dominate puppies play for the ownership of a rag? What do they do? The untrained young ones PULL! How is that insecure? Being insecure has never entered any of my dogs minds and they push into the bite and pull, wanting to pull you to the ground.


1. How a puppy plays with a sibling has nothing to do with how it performs on a sportfield. 

2. The puppies ARE insecure. They are worried the other dog is going to take the rag. 

3. You are very secure in your knowledge about what is going on in your dogs head. I hope I can be like you at some point.  

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## Christopher Smith

Joby Becker said:


> the dominant puppy lets go of the rag and grabs the other puppy by the head.


Exactly! 

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## Steve Strom

What does the other puppy do when he gets grabbed by the head? Does it matter?


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## Christopher Smith

Steve Strom said:


> What does the other puppy do when he gets grabbed by the head? Does it matter?


The pup I like is going to ignore the aggression from the other dog and walk calmly away with the rag.

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## Steve Strom

Christopher Smith said:


> The pup I like is going to ignore the aggression from the other dog and walk calmly away with the rag.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


 Cool. I chose wisely then.


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga

Christopher Smith said:


> When did I say anything about fight? Maybe you could understand what I'm saying if you actually read what I wrote and didn't add your own interpretations.


You said most pulling dogs were avoiding contact with the helper I thought that implied they didn't want to fight. I think you misunderstood my reaction. I'm just perplexed because I've seen many pullers in the traditional breeds that were confident dogs. But I think I'll let this One go.


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## Kadi Thingvall

Daniel Lybbert said:


> I have a litter of puppies right now and I will train one to pull the decoy off his feet. It will be a pain to work when he is bigger. It will be cool to watch decoys struggle to keep on their feet. If they are struggling to keep their feet they wont be trying to beat my dog.
> I think a good dog can be taught to do anything.


Years ago we had a GSD in our Ring club that we taught to pull. He was pretty much impossible for the decoy to work, he'd get a full bite between the ankle and knee, then pick up the foot and start pulling for all he was worth. It was all the decoy could do to just stay upright, since the dog was picking up the leg it was biting so the foot wasn't even on the ground half the time, and the decoy was just bouncing along on their other leg. Trying to really work the dog with any sort of pressure was very difficult. I don't think I'd want my dog to do it, but it sure was fun to watch and effective.


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## Tiago Fontes

Kadi Thingvall said:


> Years ago we had a GSD in our Ring club that we taught to pull. He was pretty much impossible for the decoy to work, he'd get a full bite between the ankle and knee, then pick up the foot and start pulling for all he was worth. It was all the decoy could do to just stay upright, since the dog was picking up the leg it was biting so the foot wasn't even on the ground half the time, and the decoy was just bouncing along on their other leg. Trying to really work the dog with any sort of pressure was very difficult. I don't think I'd want my dog to do it, but it sure was fun to watch and effective.



Effective street wise, if you're not worried about damage...


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## Daniel Lybbert

which dog was it Kadi? Also you have vids? I think it will be a real pia for me to keep training the dog but I think it may be a fun venture.


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## Britney Pelletier

Christopher Smith said:


> I disagree with you on this. I think that at some level, most of the dogs pulling are backing off. They are avoiding contact and proximity to the helper. I understand that their are some very successful and talented people that train a dog to pull back and overall the dogs they train are confident. *But a dog that is consistently is pulling? That comes from insecurity at some level. That's why you NEVER see a dog that lacks confidence pushing. They simply are not capable of it. I have never seen a dog go from pushing to coming off the sleeve in my life. *But every single dog that I have ever seen run in a trial was pulling.
> 
> I'm open to having my mind changed on this. If anyone has a video of a weak dog that was also a strong pushing dog I would like to see it.


Too good not to quote!! 

God bless you, Chris.. If I have said this once, I've said it 1000 times.


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## Kadi Thingvall

Daniel Lybbert said:


> which dog was it Kadi? Also you have vids? I think it will be a real pia for me to keep training the dog but I think it may be a fun venture.


I'd have to go through my old seminar videos and see if there is any of him, this was almost 20 years ago when we couldn't just pull out a phone or pocket camera and video training :lol: 

His name was Flip or Thor or something like that, I can't remember. All I remember was he was a medium sized GSD, with the "Dobe markings". Mainly black but with light tan or silver on the legs, eyebrows, etc. He wasn't a huge dog, but he was a strong sucker, and once he started pulling you were done, I never saw a decoy work him that could plant their foot solidly enough to counter his pull. I don't remember if he titled, if he did it was Brevet/FRI.


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## Kadi Thingvall

Christopher Smith said:


> That's why you NEVER see a dog that lacks confidence pushing. They simply are not capable of it. I have never seen a dog go from pushing to coming off the sleeve in my life. But every single dog that I have ever seen run in a trial was pulling.
> 
> I'm open to having my mind changed on this. If anyone has a video of a weak dog that was also a strong pushing dog I would like to see it.


I have seen dogs trained to push, some with electric and some with other methods, that I didn't consider particularly strong dogs. I wouldn't call them completely crappers, but they weren't strong. IMO definitely chase-able in the right situation.

I do agree that there was usually a transition moment though between pushing and coming off the bite where they flipped to pulling. I remember testing an NVBK titled dog that was here in the US as a police dog for possible stud, at the time of the test the handler said he had over 15 live bites. He was a pusher on the bite also, until my decoy chased him. I'd have to check the video to see if he went from push to pull to off or just push to gone, it was fast when it happened. I won't post the video though, found out after the fact the handler didn't have the departments permission to be training with us.

While I hate the look of pulling, it's just been ingrained in my head that it's one foot out the door for the dog, I have seen dogs that pulled that were strong. At least we threw everything we could think of at the dog and they never showed any hesitation or signs they might bail. And I've seen lots of dogs taught that pulling is the best way to beat the decoy, sometimes on purpose and sometimes on accident. So while I prefer pushing, I don't think it's black and white that pushing always means strong and pulling means weak.


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## Christopher Smith

Kadi Thingvall said:


> ....I don't think it's black and white that pushing always means strong and pulling means weak.


Nor do I, that and if you go back and read what I said you will find that I said there are dogs that are confident and pulling. What I am talking about is the pulling behavior is sparked, begins, is rooted, in insecurity. 

I think the problem people are having with this is that they are interpreting what I'm saying as "Your dog that pulls is a piece of shit." And that's not what I'm saying. 


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## Christopher Smith

Oh yeah.... But I'm am absolutely saying that weak dogs CAN'T push. They can be taught to push as long as they feel strong. But the second the heat comes so does the pulling. 

Kadi, do you remember the bloodlines of the police dog you were talking about above?

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## Kadi Thingvall

Christopher Smith said:


> Nor do I, that and if you go back and read what I said you will find that I said there are dogs that are confident and pulling. What I am talking about is the pulling behavior is sparked, begins, is rooted, in insecurity. http://www.petguide.com/mobile


LOL After I clicked "post" I thought "Chris is going to think my comment is directly related to his post"  The first paragraph was, after that I started to wander off on a tangent and was responding in general to the entire thread.

The dog was NVBK lines, I'd have to go look up the pedigree but I know the top side was Muizenbos.


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## Christopher Smith

Lol..no problem. That's what is thought. My reply was a general reply too. We know what we are up too

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## Britney Pelletier

Christopher Smith said:


> Kadi, do you remember the bloodlines of the police dog you were talking about above?


I'd be interested to know, too.. also, if there is video, that would be awesome!

Like Chris said, virtually any dog can be TAUGHT to push, but their genetics come out under pressure, regardless... and it doesn't take much. 

I have seen so many dogs we've tested that people wanted to sell to us as green dogs that have a foundation in pulling run, I lost count a long time ago.. they ran because they were pulling and moving away from the helper to begin with (on a sleeve) and a little bit of pressure, either environmentally or from the helper, is all it takes to bugger them right off the grip.

Edited to say that I also personally know some super super strong confident dogs that have been taught to totally drop their weight and pull, but they are certainly not the majority.


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## Steve Burger

We teach pulling with a large tug long before they ever see a helper. We want pulling ingrained from the beginning with an 8 week old puppy. It is the foundation for everything we do. It is nearly impossible to shift the grip if the dog is actively pulling. Like has been said earlier this also transfers over to hindering/stopping the helper. 

Bark..bite..pull..carry..out..bark...bite...pull..carry..out repeat.As a puppy.


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## Sue DiCero

We had one dog that would hit and drop, block the helper. Natural. Had one helper fall back over dog (over neck and back), because of it. Helper OK, dog needed little chiro,.....


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## Steve Burger

Steve Burger said:


> We teach pulling with a large tug long before they ever see a helper. We want pulling ingrained from the beginning with an 8 week old puppy. It is the foundation for everything we do. It is nearly impossible to shift the grip if the dog is actively pulling. Like has been said earlier this also transfers over to hindering/stopping the helper.
> 
> Bark..bite..pull..carry..out..bark...bite...pull..carry..out repeat.As a puppy.


 Oophs handler error. I forgot the ultra-important hold before the out!


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## Kadi Thingvall

Kadi Thingvall said:


> I remember testing an NVBK titled dog that was here in the US as a police dog for possible stud, at the time of the test the handler said he had over 15 live bites. He was a pusher on the bite also, until my decoy chased him. I'd have to check the video to see if he went from push to pull to off or just push to gone, it was fast when it happened.* I won't post the video though,* found out after the fact the handler didn't have the departments permission to be training with us.





Britney Pelletier said:


> I'd be interested to know, too.. also, if there is video, that would be awesome!


He was Muizenbos on the top and a variety of NVBK stuff on the bottom.


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## Howard Gaines III

Steve Burger said:


> We teach pulling with a large tug long before they ever see a helper. We want pulling ingrained from the beginning with an 8 week old puppy. It is the foundation for everything we do. It is nearly impossible to shift the grip if the dog is actively pulling. Like has been said earlier this also transfers over to hindering/stopping the helper.
> 
> Bark..bite..pull..carry..out..bark...bite...pull..carry..out repeat.As a puppy.


 Steve I agree but when the pup pushed into the tug, you also allowed it to win because it was trying to get more or a fuller bite?


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## Eric Read

you guys haven't figured out that some people drink Pepsi and some People drink Coke? There is so much more going on than pushing and pulling.


oh yeah, green dogs are for sale for a reason  Think about it. When you're in the business of selling stuff, lesser is frequently tried to be passed of as more. It's hardly unique to dogs. Dog brokers aren't in the business of hanging onto "inventory" if they can find a buyer, they're selling.


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## Christopher Smith

Eric Read said:


> There is so much more going on than pushing and pulling.


And how has anything said here, by anyone, excluded that?


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## Hunter Allred

I'm going to teach my next dog to rapidly pull then push then pull. That will make for a dog that controls the decoy lol


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## Tiago Fontes

Hunter Allred said:


> I'm going to teach my next dog to rapidly pull then push then pull. That will make for a dog that controls the decoy lol


lol...your dog is gonna turn the decoy into his own b*tch...


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## Britney Pelletier

Eric Read said:


> you guys haven't figured out that some people drink Pepsi and some People drink Coke? There is so much more going on than pushing and pulling.
> 
> 
> oh yeah, green dogs are for sale for a reason  Think about it. When you're in the business of selling stuff, lesser is frequently tried to be passed of as more. It's hardly unique to dogs. Dog brokers aren't in the business of hanging onto "inventory" if they can find a buyer, they're selling.


I literally have no idea what this has to do with the discussion.

Care to elaborate?


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## Howard Gaines III

Britney Pelletier said:


> I literally have no idea what this has to do with the discussion.
> 
> Care to elaborate?


 LOL as so often happens with the forum...:-k


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