# Toughest/Best Dog Sport...



## Clarence Pierre (Jun 15, 2013)

Please give your opinion on the toughtest dog sport and why you feel it is so.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

high level agility competition looks pretty tough to me.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> high level agility competition looks pretty tough to me.


All the sports are tough at a high level


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Christopher Smith said:


> All the sports are tough at a high level


that is true.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Christopher Smith said:


> All the sports are tough at a high level



+1
Entry level is just that. Most dogs and most people can do entry level on most any dog "sport" be it obedience of some sort of bite work. 
At the upper levels are where the wannabees are separated. 
Even simple, basic obedience is loaded with people that get it done but never go beyond that "basic" level. 
I've seen people that have trained for years and never got that HIT (High In Trial) score. 
My brother did that in his first ever OB trial and with a terrier. ](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,):lol:


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

I always considered nvbk and french ring to be the harder of the bite sports it takes real endurance and work ethic and nerve to get thru.But like others have said its all hard at top and takes great trainers.


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## Billie Fletcher (May 13, 2013)

I agree, I think they're all pretty tough at the top level... If they weren't, well then everyone would be good at them  

I do particularly enjoy watching agility at the highest levels, boy those European girls can run  

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DsQDN-ovZ6I


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## Tony Hahn (May 28, 2011)

Billie Fletcher said:


> ...........................................
> 
> I do particularly enjoy watching agility at the highest levels, boy those European girls can run
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DsQDN-ovZ6I


I watched a video the other day that was linked to show how "European" handling was different. I barely noticed anything the dog did..............


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## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

Canine freestyle. Or maybe I've just got two left feet. I'd struggle even at entry level competitions.


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## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

Billie Fletcher said:


> I agree, I think they're all pretty tough at the top level... If they weren't, well then everyone would be good at them
> 
> I do particularly enjoy watching agility at the highest levels, boy those European girls can run
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DsQDN-ovZ6I


Boy those European girls can run backwards.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Billie Fletcher said:


> I agree, I think they're all pretty tough at the top level... If they weren't, well then everyone would be good at them
> 
> I do particularly enjoy watching agility at the highest levels, boy those European girls can run
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DsQDN-ovZ6I


That looks damn near impossible


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## Paul Cipparone (Feb 13, 2011)

French Ring , dog has to work away from the handler ( at times out of site) @ long distances with more threat.Many penalties for handler help, under 2 judges ( the decoy logs changes of bite , transfers if un- noticed by the judge, no bites are given( the old way , when French Ring was done in the past, now decoys fall easily, rewarding with full points). As you can understand i'm not happy at the way the 120 + year sport has been watered down.
For an example , IPO , escape bite , sleeve is presented by decoy . The old way was decoy ( bad guy ) ran in a normal fashion , arms moving in a normal runnig manner , dog had to actually catch the decoy , by coming along side & slightly ahead to get a bite on the sleeve, now it's held horizontally for the dog to bite , actually somewhat behind the decoy.
Paul C.


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## Billie Fletcher (May 13, 2013)

Tony Hahn said:


> I watched a video the other day that was linked to show how "European" handling was different. I barely noticed anything the dog did..............


Not on DT by any chance?


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## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

Billie Fletcher said:


> I agree, I think they're all pretty tough at the top level... If they weren't, well then everyone would be good at them
> 
> I do particularly enjoy watching agility at the highest levels, boy those European girls can run
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DsQDN-ovZ6I


I'll be darned! that was beyond super. Half the US population need to become handlers at this sport and we will solve obesity!


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## Tracy Davis-Sullivan (May 10, 2010)

Herding. 

and not that AKC crap.

http://vimeo.com/14983770

http://youtu.be/gP4f49qRu4E

Away to Me
http://youtu.be/XD1vRJ3t5UQ


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## Tony Hahn (May 28, 2011)

Billie Fletcher said:


> Not on DT by any chance?


As a matter of fact, yes. Billie = disco????


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Tracy Davis-Sullivan said:


> Herding.
> 
> and not that AKC crap.
> 
> ...




Great video but it's a perfect example of what were talking about. There are many "top level" AKC herders that could do the same job. As with any dog sport it's all about a good dog being able to do it and a good trainer being able to get the best out of that good dog.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> Great video but it's a perfect example of what were talking about. There are many "top level" AKC herders that could do the same job. As with any dog sport it's all about a good dog being able to do it and a good trainer being able to get the best out of that good dog.


Yes, agreed. I still think Sch and three components in a day for the title is quite a bit to pull off.

T
Whose off to do that AKC crap tomorrow--uuuugggghhh!!


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## Billie Fletcher (May 13, 2013)

Tony Hahn said:


> As a matter of fact, yes. Billie = disco????


Yeah that's me


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## Billie Fletcher (May 13, 2013)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Yes, agreed. I still think Sch and three components in a day for the title is quite a bit to pull off.


We don't have IPO on my island, so the closest thing we've got is working trials, which also has a few components to do in one day to title... It's very cool and such a challenge. I compete in a few sports, but the thing I really like about WT is how much time you spend working your dog... Between the OB/scent stuff and stays your dog spends a good 40 minutes out there working their butt off... Agility is fun, but on a good day we probably spend a total of 6 minutes in the ring!


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

I really think the toughest dog sport is sledding, not on a recreational level, but on a professional level. 
The training involved in getting a dog ready for races like the Yukon Quest, or the Iditerod is brutal for the dogs and the handler. Many people discount dog sledding, but having done it for several years I can tell you that it is much, much harder on a dog than IPO, FR, MR, KNPV, or PSA.
I laugh when I read dog food companies say that they have "performance" food for millitary and police dogs. LOL How much different is the life of a Military and police dog really compaired to most active farm dogs? I grew up on a farm, never kept a dog on a chain or behind a fence, most of our dogs were herding breeds of some sort (border collies, cattle dogs, or a cross of the two) They were always running, killing shit, fighting with shit, chasing things, etc. Most active farm dogs need a better diet than most police or military dogs who spend most of their day in a crate, kennel, or on a couch somewhere. 
Anyway, the long distance sled dogs are by far the most superior K-9 athletes that I can think of, and I don't know of any sports that test a dog's endurance, mental and physical toughness better than distance racing.


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## Alex Scott (Jun 16, 2013)

mike suttle said:


> I really think the toughest dog sport is sledding, not on a recreational level, but on a professional level.
> The training involved in getting a dog ready for races like the Yukon Quest, or the Iditerod is brutal for the dogs and the handler. Many people discount dog sledding, but having done it for several years I can tell you that it is much, much harder on a dog than IPO, FR, MR, KNPV, or PSA.
> I laugh when I read dog food companies say that they have "performance" food for millitary and police dogs. LOL How much different is the life of a Military and police dog really compaired to most active farm dogs? I grew up on a farm, never kept a dog on a chain or behind a fence, most of our dogs were herding breeds of some sort (border collies, cattle dogs, or a cross of the two) They were always running, killing shit, fighting with shit, chasing things, etc. Most active farm dogs need a better diet than most police or military dogs who spend most of their day in a crate, kennel, or on a couch somewhere.
> Anyway, the long distance sled dogs are by far the most superior K-9 athletes that I can think of, and I don't know of any sports that test a dog's endurance, mental and physical toughness better than distance racing.


Way to think outside the box. I can imagine that this would be the most demanding dog sport. Do you have any videos of the training you are talking about?


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## Meg O'Donovan (Aug 20, 2012)

Here is a good Japanese-made video of the Yukon Quest. Iditarod gets more publicity but Yukon Quest is brutal, for dogs (icy rivers) and musher (sleep deprivation). I'm awed by the physical stamina and mental willpower required to even finish the race.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QA0QGoGf060


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## Eric Read (Aug 14, 2006)

Meg O'Donovan said:


> Here is a good Japanese-made video of the Yukon Quest. Iditarod gets more publicity but Yukon Quest is brutal, for dogs (icy rivers) and musher (sleep deprivation). I'm awed by the physical stamina and mental willpower required to even finish the race.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QA0QGoGf060


I got a chance to meet Dallas Seavey last year after becoming the youngest winner of the iditarod. He's sponsored by a local company here and came back and did a presentation. Anyway, he told the story about the Yukon quest and it was the only race he was going to quit.

I forget all the details, but when he started out one day and it was cold, then it got a lot colder minus 30-40 degrees and he had to do a water crossing. He said the water would actually break thru the ice and flow over the top of the river and because it was so cold start to freeze again right away, but this particular one hadn't frozen over enough to support him and his team.

you can't really tell and he said him and his dogs broke thru in waist or chest deep water. Talked about how he got his team unhooked and safe and then finished that leg with one arm and the rest of him in a sleeping back that was kept dry in his bag. it took hours to chisel ice chunks that were boots off his feet.

but he didn't quit, went on to win I think and then win the Iditarod. He was a olympic caliber wrestler too, so he's a bit nuts.


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## Tracy Davis-Sullivan (May 10, 2010)

Bob Scott said:


> Great video but it's a perfect example of what were talking about. There are many "top level" AKC herders that could do the same job. .



I've never learned of someone that does AKC herding that can also manage Open level USBCHA herding. We're talking 500 yard outruns, unbroke sheep (and heck sometimes cattle) and terrain that can look impossible to overcome.





> As with any dog sport it's all about a good dog being able to do it and a good trainer being able to get the best out of that good dog


Well, duh.  Because if we were talking about "most awesome dog on the planet" its probably some unknown dog working it's heart out not a dog participating in a sport.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

"Well, duh. :wink: Because if we were talking about "most awesome dog on the planet" its probably some unknown dog working it's heart out not a dog participating in a sport".


I'll have to agree with that 100%!


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Tracy Davis-Sullivan said:


> I've never learned of someone that does AKC herding that can also manage Open level USBCHA herding. We're talking 500 yard outruns, unbroke sheep (and heck sometimes cattle) and terrain that can look impossible to overcome.


Here's one example, my instructor Terry Parrish. Her BC's, which she breeds under the kennel name Blazin', have done both, many times. 

Brenna, HC Blazin' Brenna HSAs HIAs HIBs HXAds HXBs, just won the purse at the 2013 Highland Games USBCHA Trial.

This is just one example, she's got quite a few dogs that have done well in USBCHA trials, locally and top 10 finishes in Nationals, who also compete in AKC. Brenna's brother Beau is also an AKC Herding Champion and has competed successfully in USBCHA trials.

It's not just the BC's either, a number of Terry's students that compete in AKC trials have also competed in USBCHA trials.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)




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## Alex Scott (Jun 16, 2013)

Meg O'Donovan said:


> Here is a good Japanese-made video of the Yukon Quest. Iditarod gets more publicity but Yukon Quest is brutal, for dogs (icy rivers) and musher (sleep deprivation). I'm awed by the physical stamina and mental willpower required to even finish the race.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QA0QGoGf060


Thanks for posting that, I had previously never seen anything on dog sled racing that wasn’t produced by Hollywood.


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## catherine hardigan (Oct 12, 2009)

mike suttle said:


> I really think the toughest dog sport is sledding, not on a recreational level, but on a professional level.
> The training involved in getting a dog ready for races like the Yukon Quest, or the Iditerod is brutal for the dogs and the handler. Many people discount dog sledding, but having done it for several years I can tell you that it is much, much harder on a dog than IPO, FR, MR, KNPV, or PSA.
> I laugh when I read dog food companies say that they have "performance" food for millitary and police dogs. LOL How much different is the life of a Military and police dog really compaired to most active farm dogs? I grew up on a farm, never kept a dog on a chain or behind a fence, most of our dogs were herding breeds of some sort (border collies, cattle dogs, or a cross of the two) They were always running, killing shit, fighting with shit, chasing things, etc. Most active farm dogs need a better diet than most police or military dogs who spend most of their day in a crate, kennel, or on a couch somewhere.
> Anyway, the long distance sled dogs are by far the most superior K-9 athletes that I can think of, and I don't know of any sports that test a dog's endurance, mental and physical toughness better than distance racing.


The Danish (or maybe it's Dutch... whichever country Greenland belongs to) still has a sled dog team maintained by the military. They go up and down the coast of Greenland every year. National Geographic had a super cool article about it several months ago. I think the oldest dog on the team was 10 or 12. A hard living for sure.

As an aside, I think the coolest - and quite possibly hardest - sport I've seen dogs compete in is Campagne. It seems to require a very complete dog. If I ever live in France, that's what I'll do.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Tracy Davis-Sullivan said:


> I've never learned of someone that does AKC herding that can also manage Open level USBCHA herding. We're talking 500 yard outruns, unbroke sheep (and heck sometimes cattle) and terrain that can look impossible to overcome.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ya have to broaden your horizons. The first USBCHA trial I went to they had a 3 point hold on the sheep and all but three dogs ran straight up the middle. As for unbroke sheep or range ewes, at some point before the trial, they were worked by a dog if only to get them to the trial. Regardless, honest sheep actually are better to work than so called broke or soured sheep.

T


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> high level agility competition looks pretty tough to me.


 
I guess it would do - you need to have good lungs:lol:


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Clarence Pierre said:


> Please give your opinion on the toughtest dog sport and why you feel it is so.


Tough for the dog for the handler? or both?

I guess FCI tracking is very tough for the dog. One forgets how exhausting "sniffing" out tracks can be for the dog.


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## Paul Cipparone (Feb 13, 2011)

When i do a seminar for a schH or tracking group, i ask them to breath ( take 200 breaths) without stopping . At the end they are exhausted , & that's just from breathing , no account for heat , dust , weed seeds i the nose, dust in the nose & mouth etc. 
Paul C.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Gillian Schuler said:


> I guess it would do - you need to have good lungs:lol:




And knees! ;-)


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## David Winners (Apr 4, 2012)

I hope Nosework progresses to the level of actual working dogs. 

The toughest thing I have ever done with a dog is 6 kilometers of dismounted route clearance through the mountains, followed by searching every building (43 total) in a small village, followed by another 4 kilometers of route clearance. It was 105 degrees outside in the afternoon. This took us 9 hours to accomplish.

That could make for a cool sport!

David Winners


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## Paul Cipparone (Feb 13, 2011)

Yup that would be tough on both of you. Thank yo for your service.
Paul C.


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## David Winners (Apr 4, 2012)

Paul Cipparone said:


> Yup that would be tough on both of you. Thank yo for your service.
> Paul C.


The bitch had the hard job. All I did was carry her water LOL.

And you're welcome. I love my job.

David Winners


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## Meg O'Donovan (Aug 20, 2012)

David Winners said:


> I hope Nosework progresses to the level of actual working dogs.
> 
> The toughest thing I have ever done with a dog is 6 kilometers of dismounted route clearance through the mountains, followed by searching every building (43 total) in a small village, followed by another 4 kilometers of route clearance. It was 105 degrees outside in the afternoon. This took us 9 hours to accomplish.
> 
> ...


That would fall into the category of endurance or extreme sports.

In the 9 hours, how often did you rest her and for how long each time (if you can remember)? Water at each rest? What did she do during rest (her chosen behavior)? I know every dog is different but I'm curious to know about those pushing the envelope on endurance while retaining the ability to function. 

What breed was the dog? 
I'd like to give that dog a big can of stinky lamb tripe to show my admiration for the hard work. Your efforts as handler are also appreciated.


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## David Winners (Apr 4, 2012)

Meg O'Donovan said:


> That would fall into the category of endurance or extreme sports.
> 
> In the 9 hours, how often did you rest her and for how long each time (if you can remember)? Water at each rest? What did she do during rest (her chosen behavior)? I know every dog is different but I'm curious to know about those pushing the envelope on endurance while retaining the ability to function.
> 
> ...


We rested twice on the infill, probably for 20 minutes each time. Once was for a tactical pause and once for a find. Neither time was because the dog had to stop. We had a half hour break while the leaders did their thing when we got to the village. We split the village into quadrants, so we had a short break 3 times while searching the village, plus another half hour before our exfil. We average 2 kliks per hour when searching.

I always offer water whenever we stop, but Fama isn't much of a drinker. I also gave her a liter of subcutaneous fluid right before we stepped off on the infill, so that probably helped. She usually drinks about half a liter an hour while working in the summer, and then a couple of liters between dinner and bed.

During rest periods, she is usually pretty alert until she starts getting tired. I make her lay down when we stop, and shade her with my body while she gets a drink and I take her temperature.

An important thing to note is that we spent 3 months preparing for this type of activity, including daily runs on the treadmill and on pavement. By the time we were active in Afghanistan, Fama was up to 8 miles every morning at 8 mph on the treadmill. Then on easy or off days, we would train for at least an hour on detection, and then finish with a 4 klik run up to an OP on a hill and back.

I've seen dogs die on missions half that long in cooler temperatures. You really have to prepare for this type of activity, especially in the heat.

Fama is a female GSD from Holland. She is between 70 and 80 pounds when she's in full deployment shape. She runs about 55 pounds when she's in the kennels for a while. She was 4-1/2 years old on our last deployment. She is one of those dogs that lives to work. When you drop the ramp, she's a handful. You should see her when we're on the LZ when a bird is coming in and she's in harness. Talk about drive leaking. She doesn't even sound like a dog LOL.

David Winners


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## Meg O'Donovan (Aug 20, 2012)

Thank you for sharing the context of preparation for and management of her hard work. When I read it, all I could think was "Great heart"... and that in terms of perseverance, not beats per minute. 
Thanks again.

PS Does she drop weight in the kennel because she is dropping muscle due to less activity, or does she fret restlessly when not working and burn calories like that?


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## Meg O'Donovan (Aug 20, 2012)

Thank you for sharing the context of preparation for and management of her hard work. When I read it, all I could think was "Great heart"... and that in terms of perseverance, not beats per minute. 
Thanks again.

PS Does she drop weight in the kennel because she is dropping muscle due to less activity, or does she fret restlessly when not working and burn calories like that?


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## David Winners (Apr 4, 2012)

Meg O'Donovan said:


> Thank you for sharing the context of preparation for and management of her hard work. When I read it, all I could think was "Great heart"... and that in terms of perseverance, not beats per minute.
> Thanks again.
> 
> PS Does she drop weight in the kennel because she is dropping muscle due to less activity, or does she fret restlessly when not working and burn calories like that?


She is an amazing dog. I would hand no idea how to calculate how many lives she saved; mine on several occasions.

She gets skinny in the kennel from spinning all day, burning calories without building muscle. She a bit of a bitch in her kennel.

David Winners


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

David Winners said:


> We rested twice on the infill, probably for 20 minutes each time. Once was for a tactical pause and once for a find. Neither time was because the dog had to stop. We had a half hour break while the leaders did their thing when we got to the village. We split the village into quadrants, so we had a short break 3 times while searching the village, plus another half hour before our exfil. We average 2 kliks per hour when searching.
> 
> I always offer water whenever we stop, but Fama isn't much of a drinker. I also gave her a liter of subcutaneous fluid right before we stepped off on the infill, so that probably helped. She usually drinks about half a liter an hour while working in the summer, and then a couple of liters between dinner and bed.
> 
> ...


Wow. Very interesting in terms of the conditioning for human and dog and how as a handler you are attuned to her mentally and physically. I usually like dogs that won't gulp water under extreme conditions but with your work there is the issue of possible dehydration--hence the subq fluids. Do you have a link to Fama's pedigree. BTW, thanks for sharing. Its always enlightening to read about the nature of your type of work and what it involves for you and the dog.

T


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## David Winners (Apr 4, 2012)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Wow. Very interesting in terms of the conditioning for human and dog and how as a handler you are attuned to her mentally and physically. I usually like dogs that won't gulp water under extreme conditions but with your work there is the issue of possible dehydration--hence the subq fluids. Do you have a link to Fama's pedigree. BTW, thanks for sharing. Its always enlightening to read about the nature of your type of work and what it involves for you and the dog.
> 
> T


I don't like a gulper either. Dogs like that you have to really monitor their intake to avoid bloat. I never had that problem with Fama. 

Dehydration is a major risk in those conditions. I would regularly check the skin on her back to be sure it was snapping back. I don't remember the technical term. I also carried a liter of fluids and a starter kit to give her intravenous fluids if necessary. I kept spots shaved on her front legs to facilitate starting a catheter. You can see her front legs shaved in the picture below.










I have no idea on Fama's pedigree. I know she came to the US as a green dog in 2008. VLK buys a lot of dogs in Holland, so it's hard to tell where she came from. She is now at Ft. Bragg with a new handler, and she is doing very well. She is apparently one of the best detection dogs they have seen. Coming from the MP corps, that doesn't mean much though (j/k). Our dogs are trained much differently than the MP dogs.

The best part of being a deployed handler is that 100% of your job is your dog. I spent 23 hours a day with her. This enables us to really share a brain, and to train some interesting methods of direction during search, like radios and some other stuff. I've trained and owned my fair share of dogs over the years, and I've never had the same type of relationship with any other dog. Out was a great experience.

Wow... way off topic. I apologize.

David Winners


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

David Winners said:


> I don't like a gulper either. Dogs like that you have to really monitor their intake to avoid bloat. I never had that problem with Fama.
> 
> Dehydration is a major risk in those conditions. I would regularly check the skin on her back to be sure it was snapping back. I don't remember the technical term. I also carried a liter of fluids and a starter kit to give her intravenous fluids if necessary. I kept spots shaved on her front legs to facilitate starting a catheter. You can see her front legs shaved in the picture below.
> 
> ...


thanks for sharing...dont worry about going off topic, if everything stayed 100% on topic this place would be far less interesting..


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