# PPDs in general



## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

This isn't intended as a provocative thread, nor is it a kick in the shins for those companies who import and sell trained dogs. These are just my thoughts.

If the imported dog is (GSD) from show lines, trained to whatever standards are required, i.e. protection of family, individual, etc. What are the guarantees (morally) that this dog will really do what he is supposed to.
I have seen many show dogs that make good pets and, with a certain amount of training, I ccould imagine they would bark if anyone approached the property. They are, in my opinion, easy to handle dogs. However, dog is dog and even in the show lines there will be territorial species. Can a "trained" dog be handed over to a new owner and carry out the duties he was taught? Bob Scott mentioned this in Fred Carlssons thread about going back for training (or similar).

If, and I see this as rare (correct me if I'm wrong), the dog is from strong working lines, what guarantee can be given (morally) to ensure that the dog will not "outgrow" his family and take matters into his own hands? Here, I see the best possible dog to protect the home but the worst to knuckle under to its owner, especially if he or she is a first time dog owner.

Is the "training and handing over" really thorough? Is the new owner made aware of the fact that most dogs will attempt to protect their owners? (I know this will aggravate some, but nevertheless I'm saying it)

For me there are two types dogs, whatever breed, those that from nature will protect the family whatever and those that have to go through a certain training to learn how to do it. Both could be lethal...


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Is there a guarantee that every time you pull the tragger a bullet will come out? That's not 100% nor is any dog. With sport dogs is there any guarantee that they will score perfectly on the trial field, again no. There are no guarantees in anything, that just don't happen. Murphy's Law proves that. A well cleaned gun, a highly trained sport dog or PPD the chances are much better But still not 100%.


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## James Degale (Jan 9, 2009)

Gillian Schuler said:


> This isn't intended as a provocative thread, nor is it a kick in the shins for those companies who import and sell trained dogs. These are just my thoughts.
> 
> If the imported dog is (GSD) from show lines, trained to whatever standards are required, i.e. protection of family, individual, etc. What are the guarantees (morally) that this dog will really do what he is supposed to.
> I have seen many show dogs that make good pets and, with a certain amount of training, I ccould imagine they would bark if anyone approached the property. They are, in my opinion, easy to handle dogs. However, dog is dog and even in the show lines there will be territorial species. Can a "trained" dog be handed over to a new owner and carry out the duties he was taught? Bob Scott mentioned this in Fred Carlssons thread about going back for training (or similar).
> ...


My problem is the people who misrepresent the abilities of these dogs by marketing. No they are not the only solution to enchancing security of a property or family but are an important part of a comprehensive crime prevention plan. Facts are, owning a trained dog reduces the chances of you being a target of crime by maiking you a "harder" (pardon the industry speak) target. And nothing in life is guranteed.

Judging from your septicism and since you seem to believe owning a protection dog is pointless, why don't you buy a poodle, unlock your doors, leave your car running, put jewellry in your window and tatoo "i am a sucker" on your forehead. If your theory is correct you have nothing to worry about!

Have a nice day.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

James Degale said:


> Judging from your septicism and since you seem to believe owning a protection dog is pointless, why don't you buy a poodle, unlock your doors, leave your car running, put jewellry in your window and tatoo "i am a sucker" on your forehead. If your theory is correct you have nothing to worry about!


I think it's pointless,if you expect your dog to protect your house, vehicles and jewelry you're the one that should get the tatt...and it should say..." Too ****ing stupid to know better" with maybe some snakes or daggers on the side :lol:


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

In my post I said there were no guarantees but I didn't say that a PPD was a bad idea. It is just another form of protection and if the bad guy does get past the pooch I should hope that he gets past the 45, I dought it. LOL


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Jerry Lyda said:


> In my post I said there were no guarantees but I didn't say that a PPD was a bad idea. It is just another form of protection and if the bad guy does get past the pooch I should hope that he gets past the 45, I dought it. LOL


I like your odds building Jerry! 
If the dog doesn nothing more then give you a chance at that second (best) line of defence, it's done it's job! 
If someone wants a PPD and refuses to own/use that second line of defence....well....that's a mistake. IMHO!
That's what real protection work is all about. :grin: ;-)


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Jerry Lyda said:


> In my post I said there were no guarantees but I didn't say that a PPD was a bad idea. It is just another form of protection and if the bad guy does get past the pooch I should hope that he gets past the 45, I dought it. LOL


Gillian kicking at shins...bad kid!!! Jerry are you saying that you're 45? Nice answer to your first post. I went out plinking several years ago with my step grandfather's .22 pistol. Shot the first round and it sounded "flat" to me. I then cranked off the remaining rounds...not one went off.

Upon closer review of the pistol, my first round was a dud and was locked part way down the barrel. To go further, the other rounds HAD contact strikes to the casing. After removing all rounds and looking it over, I put six more rounds in it and from the same box and all fired.

What could have happened if the first set went off in the obstructed gun?! BLESSED is the only way I can say it. So, to answer Gillian's question, nope can't make any guarantees...I think a good PPD will buy you time for the other options which can be out there for the homeowner.


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## Marina Schmidt (Jun 11, 2009)

Is there a guarantee the bullet comes out of the gun? That the housebreaker won't open my sec lock? That my alarm system will work? Nope! But I would say the guarantee you will be robbed is much higher sleeping with open doors.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

James, you said:

Judging from your septicism and since you seem to believe owning a protection dog is pointless, why don't you buy a poodle, unlock your doors, leave your car running, put jewellry in your window and tatoo "i am a sucker" on your forehead. If your theory is correct you have nothing to worry about!

My system isn't septic!! Neither did I say a protection dog is useless. The guarantees are given by the vendors and its these guarantees I'm questioning.

Whilst I was looking for a certain member's PPD, I noticed that a lot of the dogs are from part to pure showlines and that's why I asked where the "moral" guarantee lies when PPD training centres state the dogs are trained and 100% reliable.

On the other hand dogs from working lines "could" be probably trained to a better standard but here, I would question whether the dog can be controlled afterwards by his new owners.

There are good PPD training centres obviously and here again, I'm not trying knock them. I'm just asking questions.

Another question is, as far as I can see, most of the dogs that are being marketed are GSDs. What about the Malinois - I've not seen many of these advertised but could be wrong.


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## fred karlsson (Mar 18, 2009)

I think you are refering to my dog, all I can say is that buying a PP dog is a big step thats why I signed up to this forum and picked a vendor that is very good. If I have a problem he is only a phonecall away. I also got the chance to go and see him in Wales where I got to see three other dogs in action. I picked my dog in competition of other dogs (not that I knew the difference of show line/working line), I was given valuable advice of what to look for by other members from the forum prior to the visit.

The handover was very proffessional and it was made clear that the dog would not be left with me if either of us could not control the dog in different scenarious, including armed robbery.

I would be very suprised if my dog did not attack if someone uninvited entered my house or yard and opposed a real threat, in fact I think he could probably take a bullet or two without stopping when he is seriously pissed off.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

For what it is worth, from my observations some buyers of ppds seem to be family people (obviously not all) where the dog will live and interact as part of the family. I suppose many of these peeps are not necessarily dog experienced or indeed dog savvy at all, and that is where the less drivey showline type is of more value, more manageable, and more able to adapt and integrate more successfully than say a more serious working line with higher demands ie. stimulation, exercise etc. That's my reckoning anyway, and as someone has already said; in life there are no guarantees - other than according to a cracking Chinese proverb I came across many years ago; 'The only thing in life which is guaranteed; is misery' love it! But like anything I sometimes wonder if it is an illusion- like insurance, there are lots of factors to take into account.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

:-o Damn, that's deep Maggie, but I agree with all you said!


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Besides maybe a burglar Police Officers encounter PPD's more often then most other folks . From my experiance having encountered "trained PPD's " and untrained dogs most dogs period , will not engage someone who enters their home . Most will put on a show for awhile but then run . The "trained" dogs owners are usually very surprised and come up with some lame excuse like the dog knew I wasn't a burglar or something . 

There are some good PPD's out there but my advice to everyone is always have a backup plain . The shotgun is my first choice but I've seen the mess it makes and it's not nice(only flaw as I see it) . Most folks think their dog is capable of doing much more then they actually can in personal protection . It's a big jump from looking very intimidating barking and snarling and pulling at the leash to charging a badguy and staying in a fight with them if the badguy chooses to fight and not run . Some vendors will take advantage of how most folks are impressed with a dogs show of agression and lead people to believe the dog will protect for real . The know they can get away with it because the vast majority of their dog will never be put in a situation where they would need to fight a badguy for real . 

Run from any vendor who guarantees you their dog will do this . There are good ones out there and they are the straight shooters no fancy BS.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Jim, now that is what I wanted to hear because that is what I'm thinking. The people who buy these dogs that are purported to protect the family 100% are the ones I'm sorry for. Mostly first time dog owners:-k and willing to believe.

What Maggie said, is true. The show dog will most likely be the one with the training that can be taken over 1:1?? 

The working dog, on the other hand, could serve the same purpose but could be trained by the owner (less sales). I'm not saying here that it is the be-and-end-all but, as Jim stated, a back-up plan is always necessary. 

A lot of people think that sports people are blended by their dogs because they look savage in protection work but I think that sports people who take it seriously know how to read their dogs, are aware that their dog is *at best a deterrent - at worst a luxury.*

Without putting all PPD trainers in the same basket, I would say I'd prefer to bring up an 8-week old pup from strong working lines and hopefully, strong nerves that I could gauge how far I can rely on him as a deterrent and could control him through the never-ending training (if only just to say "be off with you boy, there's a real criminal in the drive - let's hope the cops get here in time")


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

fred karlsson said:


> I think you are refering to my dog, all I can say is that buying a PP dog is a big step thats why I signed up to this forum and picked a vendor that is very good. If I have a problem he is only a phonecall away. I also got the chance to go and see him in Wales where I got to see three other dogs in action. I picked my dog in competition of other dogs (not that I knew the difference of show line/working line), I was given valuable advice of what to look for by other members from the forum prior to the visit.
> 
> The handover was very proffessional and it was made clear that the dog would not be left with me if either of us could not control the dog in different scenarious, including armed robbery.
> 
> I would be very suprised if my dog did not attack if someone uninvited entered my house or yard and opposed a real threat, in fact I think he could probably take a bullet or two without stopping when he is seriously pissed off.


Fred, no I wasn't actually referring to you. I know of the PPD trainer (if not personally) and it all looks above board. The dogs are who they say they are and all the papers, etc. are supplied. I heard about him once in a case in the UK when he was called in to evaluate a police dog that was purported to be handler aggressive.

I think he is very highly thought of in the UK.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Gillian Schuler said:


> Jim, now that is what I wanted to hear because that is what I'm thinking. The people who buy these dogs that are purported to protect the family 100% are the ones I'm sorry for. Mostly first time dog owners:-k and willing to believe.
> 
> What Maggie said, is true. The show dog will most likely be the one with the training that can be taken over 1:1??
> 
> ...


I think this (in bold) could be the crux no? the ppd purchaser is one who does not /cannot train their own dog, or indeed sometimes knows which end of a dog is which, an owner trained dog is probably even more likely to protect it's owner/trainer/handler for various reasons, but that isn't really an option a lot of the time - again, could be for lots of different reasons. And then there are just the plain gullible, after all it's a commercial business much like any other!

Just to add, I have also heard that A1k9 have a good rep!

On a lighter note Frank, there's a malinois called Fred on the site - did he not interest you at all, I know just a little about who/where that dog came from, he's probably a very good dog too!


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Maggie,

On a lighter note Frank, there's a malinois called Fred on the site - did he not interest you at all, I know just a little about who/where that dog came from, he's probably a very good dog too!

Who's Frank or did you mean "on a frankly lighter note, Fred"?

Gill...

PS, can you sing, too?


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Who's Frank or did you mean "on a frankly lighter note, Fred"? 

Absolutely! :grin: :grin: Thankyou


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

The idea of the PPD being the sole protecting element is a joke. If anyone wishes to do harm to the "house," the bad guy will always have fall back measures! I had an alarm guy try and sell me on a fool proof unit! Right! I was born on a day but not yesterday!!!!

The dog barks and many homeowners sit around with a stoned looked on their face waiting on somebody to see what the problem is before "they" have to get up. If you fail to plan, plan to fail. This is the statement the I use in the classroom 24/7. Like I said before, not all guns go off and not all "trained" PPDs will engage, the same can be said for LE dogs!


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## fred karlsson (Mar 18, 2009)

I looked at two dobermans and two GSD, all the other dogs on the page were also in the kennel (like fred,one of us needed a name change if bought.....) Naro was outstanding with my son who was with me. Naro came across very laid back an calm, no barking in the kennel. The others were more "high strung" and active. However when the protection work started there were a big difference, Naro went from 0 to 100 and really took care of business, I was blown away with the power and lack of fear.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Life can be complicated enough without having to change your name lol :-D 

If you chose the dog you were most comfortable with Fred and the company thought it a good match, that's the best you can do I suppose. I expect the lad will be sweltering in the heat in the sunny south of Spain, does he have free access to the cool as I'm sure you'd like him to stay sharp ;-) 





Gill, couldn't even sing a note for my dinner.... but hey, doesn't she just cheer you up? :-D


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## fred karlsson (Mar 18, 2009)

If you are suspecting your dog will not engage if you have a break, would it not be an easy thing staging a robbery in your house?

Thats what we did in the middle of the night/day............both with me sending off the dog to bite and on "autopilote" i.e without command word.(on/off lead). It was a good experience but quite scary the first time.

All talk about PPD tuning on your own kids and then not doing ANYTHING when they are supposed to do seems strange for me, but maybee I got it all wrong.


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

You cannot dublicate a real event . A hidden sleeve is MAYBE only hidden the first time a dog engages and then the decoy is usually feeding the sleeve to the dog to protect himself . Same for other forms of equipment , the dogs are very aware of them . (sleeves , suits , muzzles , etc. ) . They are good tools to prepare for a successful outcome if the real deal arises but aren't proof they will engage for real . The real deal is a big jump from real to life scenerio training . 

Another key to the dog is using the same decoys over and over again . " There's that guy/gal I always fight , let's go ! " . Dogs pick up on these type things alot better then most think .


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## James Degale (Jan 9, 2009)

Jim Nash said:


> You cannot dublicate a real event . A hidden sleeve is MAYBE only hidden the first time a dog engages and then the decoy is usually feeding the sleeve to the dog to protect himself . Same for other forms of equipment , the dogs are very aware of them . (sleeves , suits , muzzles , etc. ) . They are good tools to prepare for a successful outcome if the real deal arises but aren't proof they will engage for real . The real deal is a big jump from real to life scenerio training .
> 
> Another key to the dog is using the same decoys over and over again . " There's that guy/gal I always fight , let's go ! " . Dogs pick up on these type things alot better then most think .


I think the subtext here is that police K-9s are the real deal, any body else that trains dogs to bite, sport, PPD etc are just playing at working dogs. We get it Jim, don't have to ram it down our throats. 

Relax, just kidding with you.


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## James Degale (Jan 9, 2009)

Show vs Working Line GSD

A lot is said about the difference. Anybody who makes a big issue out of this probably hasn't worked enough dogs in their lives and gets all their information from the internet. To me the show versus working debate is pointless when it comes to evaluating the dog in front of you. I don't care if it is GSD, Rott, mongrel, rescue as long as it has the nerve, temperament and drives to do the job, then so be it. If Fred has a showline, so what, what is the big deal??!! As long as it does the job. 

Standard of PPD

In an ideal world, PPDs should conform to an industry standard like police, prison, security (to some extent) who undergo annual licencing. This should sort of the cowboys. All licencing events should be videotaped and available for scrutiny to avoid midnight trials. 

However, what is good in theory is not easy practically. With licencing comes regulation and government meddling. PPDs in the UK are considered pets and thus fall outside the Guard Dogs Act. So if a crim gets bitten on your property it is his fault. But licenced dogs fall under the GDA, such that even when a criminal who injures you on your property get bit, you and your dog will be subject to investigation. This means your dog will be taken from you, put in a pound, to be assessed by some goevrnment appointed dog trainer, who could be Miss Molly Obedience who think any dog who bark is dangerous and will recommend it be put to sleep. 

It is bad enough that the law gives so much right to criminals, do I want the government to take away one of the last remaining legal ways to defend myself, heck no! For those of you in the US, in the UK, guns, pepper sprays, knives are all illegal for ordinary citizens. Plus do I want faceless beauracreats, who have never worked a dog in their lives, making rules and regulations about the details of dog training. Not to mention the costs normally associated with anything the government decides to regulate. With all this red tape, I doubt the ordinary client would want to put up with this kind of hassle? 

Criminal 1, ordinary citizen 0

My (possible) solution is that PPD trainers should gather together and form some sort of voluntary code of conduct and licencing organisation. Free from government interefrence. Problem it is hard not to court unwanted government, police, public-goody-two-shoes meddling when you start making yourself known, having a public profile. Two as with any organisation, there will always be politics and disagreement, what do they say, only thing two dog trainers can agree on.


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## James Degale (Jan 9, 2009)

fred karlsson said:


> All talk about PPD tuning on your own kids and then not doing ANYTHING when they are supposed to do seems strange for me, but maybee I got it all wrong.


I think the people who are saying this you might find are not the best people to get advice about dog training from. Yes children should always be supervised around dogs, no matter what breed/training. The same with strangers, especially visiting children. Simple. 

Continuation training IMO is very important. But even more important is bonding with your dog. A dog will not protect you if you do not give him a reason to want to do so. That goes for the most highly trained protection dog in the world. 

A dog cannot stop every threat that comes your way. But you have bought yourself an extra pair of eyes/ears, a visual deterrent with a bite to back it up, made yourself less attractive compared to someone who doesn't have a dog, and a family companion. I think that is good enough reason to be pleased.


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

James stated ;

" I think the subtext here is that police K-9s are the real deal, any body else that trains dogs to bite, sport, PPD etc are just playing at working dogs. We get it Jim, don't have to ram it down our throats. 

Relax, just kidding with you. "

Just stating my experiance with potential Police K9's and the final hurdle they have to jump and that's to the real deal . Some never make that final jump either and like the sport and PPD dogs many PSD's will never find themselves in a position where they have to actually engage a person for real . This gives some unsavory PSD trainers/vendors the ability to talk big but never have to prove the dogs they put out are for real either .

Like PPD's and Sport Dogs we have good and bad examples. That's a battle all of us in these fields battle when in discussions like this . Which person is for real , which are full of s*^% and which don't know they are full of s*^# ?


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## James Degale (Jan 9, 2009)

Jim Nash said:


> James stated ;
> 
> 
> 
> Just stating my experiance with potential Police K9's and the final hurdle they have to jump and that's to the real deal . Some never make that final jump either and like the sport and PPD dogs many PSD's will never find themselves in a position where they have to actually engage a person for real . This gives some unsavory PSD trainers/vendors the ability to talk big but never have to prove the dogs they put out are for real either .


Ok there are some vendors who are not straight shooting about the type of training and weaknessess of the dog which should not be the case. But remember they are usually selling you a dog with the POTENTIAL to be an operational PSD, not the ready made article. I am not about to go down to the local junkie house to give my dog some experience with live bites. To complete the dog's training is your job. Remember, there are bad police trainers and handlers out there who have screwed up dogs too!

About live bites. Yes it is different to training but to be honest, it is not such big jump if the dog is trained properly and the vendor has selected the right ones in the first place that can make it on the street. Problem comes when the vendor doesn't know how to select a dog with PSD potential or purposely misrepresents his dog. In the second case, police forces should not buy unseen and should put some effort into testing dogs carefully before buying them ( in other words either don't be lazy or get some one who knows what they are doing to test the dog for you)!


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

James stated:

" Remember, there are bad police trainers and handlers out there who have screwed up dogs too! "


I think I just said that .

" This gives some unsavory PSD trainers/vendors the ability to talk big but never have to prove the dogs they put out are for real either ."

I agree it's up to the trainer to take a dog with potential up to that point . I just don't like the ones who pass off dogs without that potential off as something they are not . 

As it pertains to a dog making that final step to be able to engage for real my point is even good trainers at times can do everything right in training a dog that appears to have potential and have that dog fail when duty calls . Been there done that on occassion and it's not cool or something I like to talk about . Gives the never make mistakes internet experts something to hang there hats on in a discussion . But that's PSD training . I'm honest and know most of the dog's I've played a part in training will actually be called upon someday to engage someone for real so if I choose to talk alot of BS there will be a day that dog's true potential and my BS would be brought to light . 

That last steps a bitch and anyone making a guarantee on it is someone to avoid .


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

James stated:

" About live bites. Yes it is different to training but to be honest, it is not such big jump if the dog is trained properly and the vendor has selected the right ones in the first place that can make it on the street. Problem comes when the vendor doesn't know how to select a dog with PSD potential or purposely misrepresents his dog. In the second case, police forces should not buy unseen and should put some effort into testing dogs carefully before buying them ( in other words either don't be lazy or get some one who knows what they are doing to test the dog for you)! "

Not trying to be a smartass but how many real bites do you have with your dogs ? 

I disagree , it is usually a big jump . People forget about all the confidence building that was put into each dog's training as it gradually progressed through training under more and more presure then somehow believe that when the real deal comes this dog should magically take on the badguy no problem . Not true in most cases . They need to gain confidence along the way with more real engagements and it's even tougher cause the badguy isn't a trained decoy and doesn't care about pushing the dog too far . Luckily in most cases the badguy's don't dominate the dog and are naturally inspiring for the dog . But God help most K9's in it's first real engagement that meets a true badass that will put up a big fight . 

From my experiance our selection process is very good . Most dogs make it . But even the properly selected and trained K9 's first live bite is usually not very good . They usually get stronger the more experiance they get and through proper maintainance training .


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## fred karlsson (Mar 18, 2009)

Well what can I say, if my dog put on a "show" when he did PP work in the middle of the night in my house, he is worthy an Oscar nomination.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

From reading on here, it sounds as though a reasonably well bred or selected gsd for say, bought as a pup and raised as a pet and confident adult, could probably do away with much of these ppds for sale, what d'ya reckon? 

The eyes, ears, voice are all there, possibly the defensive aggression too - then all you need is the advertising ficticious or not, that he's a ppd!


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## Dwyras Brown (Nov 21, 2008)

In theory, a PPD should have the same protection training as a PSD and the same desire to win. For my dog the training is the same. But as Jim stated, dogs have to get several real bites without the equipment before they have that "I'm ready to fight anyone, anytime,and anywhere", attitude. So most people with PPDs will never know if their dog is the 'real deal' unless the dog is/has worked as a PSD, MWD, or Security K9.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

There have been some interesting posts on here and no bashing of the PPD vendors - on the whole, just very matter of fact info as to how and what will save you and your family in the long run.

If anybody really thinks they can buy a "ready-made Smith and Wesson on 4 legs", so God help them, because nobody else can.

Thanks for the info, especially Jim Nash's.


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## Lee Robinson (Jun 22, 2009)

I just got done loading about 500 rounds of 45...because defense and PP is most effecive when LAYERED.

An alarm/security system, survalience system, dog "system" (both alarm and stopping power), knowing how to use a firearm, having a firearm available, and a phone are all effective systems of PP that should be layered. I am not a fan of "stun gun" type stuff, as I have seen some men work through that (not the "shooting type" but the zapper type). Mace and your likely to get it in your own eyes or those you love. 

A good dog that knows friend from foe is like a well targetted bullet IMO, and i the perp is unarmed I believe a good dog can be equally as effectiive....and in some cases even more so...

Because if your asleep or knocked out, the dog can still work. If you happen to not have your gun with you, the dog can still come to you. And, a dog is less likely to be "overkill" as it can be called off once the threat is stopped, while a bullet is damage done.

The best PP is LAYERED protection. This also would include things like smoke alarms, fire extinguishers, seat belts and such.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Lee Robinson said:


> I just got done loading about 500 rounds of 45...because defense and PP is most effeciveeffecive when LAYERED.
> 
> An alarm/security survaliencesurvalienceu love.
> 
> ...


Where the fuk do you live or what sort of people do you hang with that you have to put that much thought and have that much fear. You a dope dealer, nazi or a thief ???
500 hundred rounds of ammunition you got a machine gun in that Y2K bunker :lol: god damn!!!


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## Lee Robinson (Jun 22, 2009)

Do you have a fire alarm? Are you afraid of fire or just prepared just in case? 

Do you wear a seat belt? Are you afraid or just prepared?

Do you have a fire extinguisher? Are you afraid or just prepared?

And, do you have a PP dog?

I live in a country with unemployment approaching 10%...unfortunately. I hope I never need some of the stuff I have, but I love my kids to make sure I have more than 1 type of life insurance policy.

In the mean time, we enjoy our 2nd ammendment rights in many ways, not just security or fear. We also hunt, and occationally pink at some cucumbers on a sand bank...

http://www.chimerakennels.com/guncontrol.wmv


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Lee Robinson said:


> Do you have a fire alarm? Are you afraid of fire or just prepared just in case?
> Only think about it when the clocks change
> 
> Do you wear a seat belt? Are you afraid or just prepared?
> ...


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## Lee Robinson (Jun 22, 2009)

Take a book. Although I have a cc permit, I personally like Ted Nugent's belief...that his CC permit is the 2nd ammendment. That said, he has better lawyers than most of us should he have to argue that point. 

BTW, Mike...that is just what I loaded today. That doesn't include what's in the "bunker." ;^)


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## Lee Robinson (Jun 22, 2009)

Also, I like your reply, "_Not scared, just common sense and its the law_." The same can be said for having a gun. We are not required to have one, but Thomas Paine...one of the pioneers that led to the development of the US Constitution, declaration of Independence, and the Bill of Rights actually wrote a book called "Common Sense" and another called "The Rights of Men." Both are great...and lay out the reason for the rights to bear arms. At one time everyone thought having a gun and knowing how to properly use it was "common sense." IMO, it still is. It is not about fear, but just life insurance/preservation of what's right. That's why this right became law.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Lee Robinson said:


> Take a book. Although I have a cc permit, I personally like Ted Nugent's belief...that his CC permit is the 2nd ammendment. That said, he has better lawyers than most of us should he have to argue that point.
> 
> BTW, Mike...that is just what I loaded today. That doesn't include what's in the "bunker." ;^)


Nice to see yet another nutbar on the forum. Carry on :razz:


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> Nice to see yet another nutbar on the forum. Carry on :razz:


How are you enjoying Stampede? Is the Dutchie keeping you safe:wink:


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## Lee Robinson (Jun 22, 2009)

Australian Shooter Magazine

An interesting letter in the Australian Shooter Magazine this week, which I quote: "If you consider that there has been an average of 160,000 troops in the Iraq theater of operations during the past 22 months, and a total of 2112 deaths, that gives a firearm death rate of 60 per 100,000 soldiers.

The firearm death rate in Washington , DC is 80.6 per 100,000 for the same period. That means you are about 25 per cent more likely to be shot and killed in the US capital, *which has some of the strictest gun control laws in the US* , than you are in Iraq .

Conclusion: "The US should pull out of Washington .."


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Jennifer Coulter said:


> How are you enjoying Stampede? Is the Dutchie keeping you safe:wink:


We left before the trouble started, just got back tonite from the Okanagan area.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Lee Robinson said:


> Australian Shooter Magazine
> 
> An interesting letter in the Australian Shooter Magazine this week, which I quote: "If you consider that there has been an average of 160,000 troops in the Iraq theater of operations during the past 22 months, and a total of 2112 deaths, that gives a firearm death rate of 60 per 100,000 soldiers.
> 
> ...


I new it your a dope dealer that runs with pimps, hoes and thefts you have to be to lump the general population of DC into the entire mix.
You stupid simple southern ultra conservatives make me :lol: crawl back to your bunker and load some more ammo :lol: 
I hope the mods let your dumb ass hang here a wile:mrgreen: I can tell rite now your no stranger to band camp


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## Lee Robinson (Jun 22, 2009)

Mike Scheiber said:


> I new it your a dope dealer that runs with pimps, hoes and thefts you have to be to lump the general population of DC into the entire mix.
> You stupid simple southern ultra conservatives make me :lol: crawl back to your bunker and load some more ammo :lol:
> I hope the mods let your dumb ass hang here a wile:mrgreen: I can tell rite now your no stranger to band camp


"Stupid???" You "new" it? As in, you "not old" it? What does that mean? What is "wile" and "rite?" Also, you run with "thieves" not "thefts." Also, there should be a comma or period after "new." 5 mistakes in 3 short lines? Sure, everyone misspells words some times, but at least use the right form of the word when you make "stupid" accusations. You speak "thug" very well. What type of profession allows for such poor english?

Mike, in all seriousness...you should look at statistics objectively. One thing that "makes me laugh" is how some emotional based people choose to attack others that disagree with them. Emotional people (as well as lliberals) tend to attack the person that disagrees with them when they can NOT attack the message. They use words like "stupid" and such because they can't think of anything logical to say. The fact is the messages are accurate/truthful, so in confusion they try to get off topic by making personal attacks. Fact - Where and when gun laws are the highest, violent gun related crime rate also tends to be the highest. That's because the criminal knows their law abiding victim won't have a gun to defend them self.

If you argue with emotion and nonsense, it only makes you look weak and ignorant. To convert intelligent people to your view, you will have to use logic.

Criminals love gun laws, as such makes their "choice of profession" safer. I myself don't care about the safety of the criminal. I prefer to protect the innocent, which is also why I have chosen the type of dogs I have for PP work.

Now, if you are the type that likes to argue back and forth on nonsense forever, you will be speaking to yourself. I am not interested in such anymore. Life's too short. However, occationally I don't mind letting someone know the truth...just to keep the truth out there.


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## Lee Robinson (Jun 22, 2009)

There should have also been a period after "thefts," so make that six mistakes in 3 short lines. LOL.


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## Lee Robinson (Jun 22, 2009)

My bad..."I can tell right now your no stranger to bad camp."

That shoulld read, "I can tell right now YOU'RE no stranger to band camp."

So, make that 7 mistakes. LOL. Ironic that you use the word "stupid." Enough for now though, so I will move on. My point has been made.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

_occationally _

Did you mean occasionally?


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## Lee Robinson (Jun 22, 2009)

Very good.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

You're welcum!


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## Lee Robinson (Jun 22, 2009)

Ya. Good thing I said everyone makes spelling mistakes "some times" and also it is a good thing I didn't call anyone "stupid." LOL.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

_Sure, everyone misspells words some times,_

Did you mean sometimes?


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## Lee Robinson (Jun 22, 2009)

Believe it or not, I actually wrote "sometimes" but spell check caught it and suggested it be changed to some times...who am I to argue with Microsoft? Seems both are correct. After doing such, I pasted it in the "post" box and made some more editing, which included some mistakes. We all make mistakes, but that is why I generally try to stick to the message and not the messanger.


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## Lee Robinson (Jun 22, 2009)

Darnit..."messenger." LOL


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Never used spell check so can't comment - but if Microsoft made me out to look like a bad speller.... I certainly would!


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Lee Robinson said:


> Darnit..."messenger." LOL


You mean "darn it"? :lol:


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## Lee Robinson (Jun 22, 2009)

Nooope. Dat won is in perpus. lol. Is tryin to make Mike fell bester.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Doubt Mike'll need much more to make him feel better after reading this lot! He probably doesn't even use spell check - unlike you


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Connie Sutherland said:


> You mean "darn it"? :lol:


What a sock? Stuff it??


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

_If you argue with emotion and nonsense, it only makes you look weak and ignorant. To convert intelligent people to your view, you will have to use logic._

Could be here all night


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

maggie fraser said:


> Doubt Mike'll need much more to make him feel better after reading this lot! He probably doesn't even use spell check - unlike you


Oh I use it all rite things would be allot worse. I was up till 2 watching UFC then up at 6 to go tracking just got home going to cut the grass then a Sunday nap. Have to come back and battle the grammar police later.:x


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

_Have to come back and battle the grammar police later._









Think you'll probably find it's already been done and put to bed! :grin:


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## Lee Robinson (Jun 22, 2009)

maggie fraser said:


> Doubt Mike'll need much more to make him feel better after reading this lot! He probably doesn't even use spell check - unlike you


I have learned to never bet on the mental stability of illogical people...people that choose to ignore statistics and reality.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

_I have learned to never bet on the mental stability of illogical people...people that choose to ignore statistics and reality._

That's a pretty good start!

Wot about lesson number two? Or have you not got there yet?

How about more spelling lessons - that was much more fun  Or if you really prefer, we can get down and dirty into the real gritty stuff.... grammar LOL :grin::grin::grin:

Get a life, I live in a cardboard box and I thought I didn't get out much! :mrgreen:


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## Lee Robinson (Jun 22, 2009)

It just so happens, I am on here when I am cooling down and taking a break from outside work. Been cutting steel, welding, and cutting wood to install an outdoor "meat chopping" and "dog washing" station/sink out by my dog shed...and it is about 95 degrees outside. I am almost finished with it too. IMO, that is not bad for a day's work. I just have to paint it and install plumbing and install the plastic top where the meat will be chopped. This is for the dogs btw. Would you like a photo? That doesn't include the daily kennel chores which I took care of this morning before breakfast. What have you done today?


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Are you trying to chat me up? 

Are you old?


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## Lee Robinson (Jun 22, 2009)

Sorry. Not interested. You might be a great catch for someone, but I am a happily married man...w/ two beautiful children that mean more to me than anything in this world. The highlight of my day was my 3 year old son helping me "bath" some pups today in his kiddie pool and then taking him inside to clean him up and then putting him down for his mid-day nap. If you have kids, I am sure you understand. If not, then...I hope some day you are so well blessed.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Nice pics.

Here's what you're missing then.....












This is starting to get painful.............#-o


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## Lee Robinson (Jun 22, 2009)

** mod delete **


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

No need to be so sarcastic and rude!


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

maggie fraser said:


> No need to be so sarcastic and rude!


Agreed.


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## Lee Robinson (Jun 22, 2009)

Oh, come on...I was complementing you. 

Connie. Surely you do know that isn't Maggie. I saw that face while watching my conservative FOX NEWS.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Lee Robinson said:


> Oh, come on...I was complementing you.
> 
> Connie. Surely you do know that isn't Maggie. I saw that face while watching my conservative FOX NEWS.



You mean "complimenting." :lol: "Complement" has a different meaning. (Hey, you started the usage and spelling corrections. :lol: :lol: )

Some of your reply was unacceptable. 

Mods are often willing to pick through and edit here and there, but sometimes they are big meanies who are in a rush and just delete the whole thing.


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## Lee Robinson (Jun 22, 2009)

No biggie.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Good! Then we can return to the thread!


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Lee Robinson said:


> Australian Shooter Magazine
> 
> An interesting letter in the Australian Shooter Magazine this week, which I quote: "If you consider that there has been an average of 160,000 troops in the Iraq theater of operations during the past 22 months, and a total of 2112 deaths, that gives a firearm death rate of 60 per 100,000 soldiers.
> 
> ...


Can you explain why you posted this. I'm also interested in the use of statististics for agendas.


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