# It's unbelievable...



## Olga Sukonnikova (Apr 16, 2009)

It's unbelievable to me that this is possible in FR! http://www.wat.tv/video/selectifs-ring-2011-3j2ql_2ib69_.html


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

What is it that you do not believe ?


----------



## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> What is it that you do not believe ?


:lol::lol:=;=;:^o:^o in Santa Claus?


----------



## sam wilks (May 3, 2009)

I dont get it ???????????#-o#-o#-o#-o#-o#-o#-o#-o#-o#-o#-o#-o#-o


----------



## Olga Sukonnikova (Apr 16, 2009)

jeff oehlsen said:


> what is it that you do not believe ?


1:55, 2:07-2:10


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Did you see Ulko's face attack ? The same. Looking back at handler.


----------



## Ricardo Ashton (Jun 3, 2010)

That is one overeager dog.


----------



## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

I think what she is talking about is when the dog shits itself of the handler and runs away during a trial. I was also surprised to see the owner giving the dog a tug when the dog came back from a bite.


----------



## Ken White (Dec 15, 2009)

Chien Blanc = dog in white. That dog/handler was demo-ing for the competitors and was not in competition or being judged. Good training opportunity for the dog.


----------



## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Ken White said:


> Chien Blanc = dog in white. That dog/handler was demo-ing for the competitors and was not in competition or being judged. Good training opportunity for the dog.


That makes a bit more sense. thx


----------



## Mo Earle (Mar 1, 2008)

exactly what Ken said Chien Blanc ...besides demonstrating for competitors, it allows the Judge to evaluate and set the pressure from the Decoys and is setting the field for the trial-so all dogs competing will be on a field that a dog has already been on-not an unfair advantage for the first dog, and being "dog in white"... an awesome training opportunity-in a trial setting-so tugs,corrections etc, might be given by the Handler during this.


----------



## Gina Pasieka (Apr 25, 2010)

Mo Earle said:


> exactly what Ken said Chien Blanc ...besides demonstrating for competitors, it allows the Judge to evaluate and set the pressure from the Decoys and is setting the field for the trial-so all dogs competing will be on a field that a dog has already been on-not an unfair advantage for the first dog, and being "dog in white"... an awesome training opportunity-in a trial setting-so tugs,corrections etc, might be given by the Handler during this.


Why is there an unfair advantage to the first dog on the field?:-s


----------



## Mo Earle (Mar 1, 2008)

It was explained to me, when I first got into Ring-If no other dogs were on the field- the first dog competing has an unfair advantage of not having the scent of another dog already being on the field- so the Chien en Blanc- "scents" the field , in addition to everything else-(demonstrating the exercise for the competitors, allowing the Judge to do a quick Eval on the Decoy and adjust the pressure or work as needed).


----------



## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Gina Pasieka said:


> Why is there an unfair advantage to the first dog on the field?:-s


To clarify .. This is a dog that is *NOT* competing and is template for the specific days competition at this level exactly what Mo said. It is not about having the first dog on the field as having any advantage it is more the judges and competitors to view the decoys work and if the handlers have any questions or concerns about any aspect of that specific days program at the level the competitor is competing in. 



Mo Earle said:


> exactly what Ken said Chien Blanc ...besides demonstrating for competitors, it allows the Judge to evaluate and set the pressure from the Decoys and is setting the field for the trial-so all dogs competing will be on a field that a dog has already been on-not an unfair advantage for the first dog, and being "dog in white"... an awesome training opportunity-in a trial setting-so tugs,corrections etc, might be given by the Handler during this.


Explanations of the 'Dog in White' from the NARA/CRA rulebook hope this makes it clearer for every one who has questions. 



rulebook said:


> _1.2.15 It is required for a dog in white to perform before the beginning of each level of competition, and at the beginning of any subsequent days of the trial if any level will occur on more than one day. Under extenuating circumstances only, and upon unanimous agreement of the judge and all handlers for a level, it is acceptable to waive the dog in white performance for Ring I, Ring II or Ring III. After the judge gives instructions to the deputy judge and the decoys, a qualified non-competing dog and handler team for each level shall perform all the exercises, in the same manner and the same order they will occur during the competition. This is for the following reasons: to establish a perfect understanding between the judge and deputy judge, to allow the judge to verify that the decoys understood their instructions and make any necessary corrections, and lastly, to establish equality amongst the competitors, so that no competitor works on a fresh field. (Chaptre 1, p. 8, Chien en blanc)_


----------



## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Mo Earle said:


> It was explained to me, when I first got into Ring-If no other dogs were on the field- the first dog competing has an unfair advantage of not having the scent of another dog already being on the field- so the Chien en Blanc- "scents" the field , in addition to everything else-(demonstrating the exercise for the competitors, allowing the Judge to do a quick Eval on the Decoy and adjust the pressure or work as needed).


USPCA does the same thing during detection exercises. That way, none of the certifying dogs are working a "clean" area.

DFrost


----------



## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

David Frost said:


> USPCA does the same thing during detection exercises. That way, none of the certifying dogs are working a "clean" area.


The only thing in Ringsport is they won't let any bitch in heat on the field until all other dogs of all the levels have done their routines. 

I was at a trial in NY where the dog in white was in the middle of the positions exercise ,, the command was 'stand' the dog stood and emptied about 2 gallons of urine right in the middle of the exercise box. #-o

I was mortified that happened and that the judge just cleansed the area with a bucket of water. But in hindsight it made no difference as 'all' the dogs had to work in the same conditions.


----------



## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Actually the FRENCH rules do state the TEST dog is mandatory and a requirement that can't be waived and it specifically says one of the reason is so the first dog has neither advantage or disadvantage.

Trial Dog
*
Before the beginning of the trials, and at every echelon, it is compulsory to have a trial dog (holding a valid biting licence) do a practice run, including even the day after the start of the competition, if it begins the day before, or the day following that, if it is a three-day event.
Once the Ring Steward and the Decoys have been given all their instructions, the Jury then puts a non-competing dog through all of the exercises in the order drawn by lot and in the same way as they will take place during the competition. This must be done for the following reasons : first, to establish a perfect understanding between the Jury and the Ring Steward; next to allow the Judge to check during this 'rehearsal' that the decoys have correctly understood the instructions they were given; the Judge can then make the necessary adjustments and eliminate mistakes to be avoided in the various exercises that the decoys take part in : finally, in this way, all the competitors start off on an even footing; the dog whose turn comes first in the competition is not working on new ground ; so this dog has neither an advantage nor a disadvantage compared to the other contestants.
The absence of a trial dog at a competition can lead to a refusal of official endorsement. (Unless the positioning of the jumps is modified, the jumps are not compulsory at every echelon, once the starting points and directions have been indicated in the previous echelon).
*


Geoff Empey said:


> To clarify .. This is a dog that is *NOT* competing and is template for the specific days competition at this level exactly what Mo said. It is not about having the first dog on the field as having any advantage it is more the judges and competitors to view the decoys work and if the handlers have any questions or concerns about any aspect of that specific days program at the level the competitor is competing in.
> 
> 
> 
> Explanations of the 'Dog in White' from the NARA/CRA rulebook hope this makes it clearer for every one who has questions.


----------



## Olga Sukonnikova (Apr 16, 2009)

Christopher Jones said:


> I think what she is talking about is when the dog shits itself of the handler and runs away


Exactly! What I love about ring sports is that they are very positive - I've never seen a dog that was so much afraid of its handler. I know this dog was "in white" & not copeting which makes all this look even more pathetic - the handler could have used this opportunity and make this experience positive for the dog. Poor thing, really (the dog).


----------



## Grant Cusworth (Feb 15, 2011)

Personally I've moved away from the dog in white being a great opportunity to train. It's my opinion that the dog in white should be capable of the exercises and be handled in as close to a trial fashion as possible. We all know that on trial day is when we get the spectators that might not be involved in the sport and it's a great opportunity for Ring to attract new people. Having a dog freaking out and being corrected on the field during the dog in white is a sure way to turn a lot of people off. Also, (especially at the higher levels) it's very important for the Judge and competitors to see the actual work of the decoy. The dog in white should be capable of the work/decoy opposition, for that level. 

Grant


----------



## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Well I finally got to watch from a computer and you guys just got duped by David F. This video was posted on March 20th, 2 weeks before the selectiffs started, there isn't 2 judges on the field, and there is nobody there LMAO. 

Since when are there corrections like the ones in this video for dog in white at any level? You can't do that shit LMAO. I posted THE RULES that clearly state the dog in white should know the program. This is probably some knuckleheads training in Quebec, judging from the music \\/


----------



## Olga Sukonnikova (Apr 16, 2009)

Timothy Stacy said:


> This video was posted on March 20th, 2 weeks before the selectiffs started, there isn't 2 judges on the field, and there is nobody there LMAO.
> 
> Since when are there corrections like the ones in this video for dog in white at any level? You can't do that shit LMAO. I posted THE RULES that clearly state the dog in white should know the program. This is probably some knuckleheads training in Quebec, judging from the music


Of course this video has nothing to do with Sélectif 2011 (the first one started in group 7 on April 2) - that I understood. But this is French Ring, isn't it? (I thought it's some local trial somewhere.) So how is it possible that the dog is SO MUCH AFRAID OF ITS HANDLER - this is what I can't understand. By training chance with a dog in white I personally meant that the handler doesn't have to worry and is not so nervous as when he is a participant of a trial.



Timothy Stacy said:


> some knuckleheads training


Yes, really. It's a pity dogs can't choose handlers... The one in this video is obviously annoyed by this dog. Training is only worth the effort if there's a team - the handler+the dog.


----------



## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Olga Sukonnikova said:


> Of course this video has nothing to do with Sélectif 2011 (the first one started in group 7 on April 2) - that I understood. But this is French Ring, isn't it? (I thought it's some local trial somewhere.) So how is it possible that the dog is SO MUCH AFRAID OF ITS HANDLER - this is what I can't understand. By training chance with a dog in white I personally meant that the handler doesn't have to worry and is not so nervous as when he is a participant of a trial.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, really. It's a pity dogs can't choose handlers... The one in this video is obviously annoyed by this dog. Training is only worth the effort if there's a team - the handler+the dog.


I think I get what you are trying to say.

Anyone that scares a dog like that in the name of sport....and DEMONSTRATES it, is not building any kind of positive image at all.


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Look at the knotheads trying to figure out why the dog is reactive. Did you notice it was a female ? Or did that go by you as well ?

At some point the hammer gets put down. The dog is not at it's first trial, and clearly had some sort of problem that needed to be addressed. 

So they set the dog up and addressed it. You think they are all kindness and kisses to the dogs that we see in the championships ??


----------



## Alison Grubb (Nov 18, 2009)

You reach a point in training where behaviors are proofed and disobedience is treated exactly as what it is, disobedience. Training is not all unicorns and rainbows.

It actually didn't look that bad to me. Yes, the dog freaked a little but it came back didn't it? It had the option of leaving the field if it really wanted to, but it didn't and it didn't shut down. It got its crap together and did what it was supposed to do.


----------



## Olga Sukonnikova (Apr 16, 2009)

maggie fraser said:


> I think I get what you are trying to say.
> 
> Anyone that scares a dog like that in the name of sport....and DEMONSTRATES it, is not building any kind of positive image at all.


Yes, absolutely.

There's a lot that has to be and can be done with this dog and what this dog needs first is a good contact between it and the handler, but it looks like the handler doesn't care very much or is not experienced enough to see the problem. A dog is a partner, not a piece of sports equipment, and success at the trial depends a lot on how stable this partnership is.


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

The relationship between the dog and the handler has nothing really to do with what you saw there. You saw a bitch that was set up in a trial situation to fix a problem. If the relationship there was so awful, the dog would not have come back and behaved.

If the relationship between dog and handler was of the importance that you two are agreeing on, then I would be world champion several times over. Buko and I are best buds. However, we do not see eye to eye on several things. LOL That relationship crap is for beginners. It has it's place, but it is not what you guys are saying.


----------



## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

"At some point the dog has to do it cause I said so, not for the ball or tug but because I said so" Dick V.
I now have come to the understanding that when you are going to trial you can't be pulling tugs and balls out all the time. The dog at some point must respect you and the command and not the ball. If you are just training in the backyard you can be as positive as you want but when your dog is on the field with a decoy it becomes "obedience or disobedience" Rick Rutt.


Olga Sukonnikova said:


> Of course this video has nothing to do with Sélectif 2011 (the first one started in group 7 on April 2) - that I understood. But this is French Ring, isn't it? (I thought it's some local trial somewhere.) So how is it possible that the dog is SO MUCH AFRAID OF ITS HANDLER - this is what I can't understand. By training chance with a dog in white I personally meant that the handler doesn't have to worry and is not so nervous as when he is a participant of a trial.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, really. It's a pity dogs can't choose handlers... The one in this video is obviously annoyed by this dog. Training is only worth the effort if there's a team - the handler+the dog.


----------

