# Examples of dogs being hard to handle?



## Matt Grosch

When the discussion comes up (often about stud dogs, and how they should be 'over the top'), what are things you would see with these dogs?

Or more specifically, what things would a novice owner see?


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## rick smith

kind of a hypothetical Q ... and assuming here you are not referring to a stud with a bitch
.... first i would hope a novice owner would not be close enough to that type of dog to get a chance to misread it 
but fwiw, of the mwd's here at our base now, there is one that has that "handle", and it is often said he is over the top 
based on that limited group, i would summarize it as a dog who is highly trained but gets so focused on work it tunes out the handler, which creates a variety of problems depending on what they are doing at the time 
- not exactly sure what you mean by a novice, but they might see it as "wild", "aggressive", "handler sensitive" or maybe just stubborn ???
- but i can't imagine a definition of this since it is totally linked to whoever is handling the dog and very subjective, imo
- and if they're also for sale at the time, there could be some marketing in the definition too


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## jeff gamber

rick smith said:


> a novice owner would not be close enough to that type of dog to get a chance to misread it


@ Matt thats a thread starter that can go in many different directions w/various opinions and terminology that will probably be posted in the near future.

I'll scratch the surface with a very simple contribution, one of the difficult things for any new handler would be reading the dog like Rick said. With *some* dogs at the very best you may get a neutral body language at times (if you're lucky), but probably more confident 98% of the time, and in turn harder to read. This kind of charchter makes it a little more of a "feel" game when the dog acutally accepts you as his handler and not some jailbait at the other end of the line...


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## ann schnerre

first, why would a novice owner even be OFFERED a "hard to handle" dog, stud or bitch (and i've seen an AWESOME bitch or 2 that even an "experienced" handler might have trouble with).

two, assuming the owner of a handler-aggressive -i mean, what else would "hard to handle" mean-would show such a dog to a novice (can't imagine why), well, i guess i would expect the dog to give the novice the proverbial finger!!!

"novice" by definition means someone/thing not experienced in....<whatever>.

are you thinking about adoptions of MWDs by chance? that's a little bit different discussion in a couple of ways (who would even know/want to adopt for one).


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## Tammy Cohen

Matt Grosch said:


> Or more specifically, what things would a novice owner see?


Besides the ER? :lol:


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## jeff gamber

Tammy Cohen said:


> Besides the ER? :lol:


That was pretty funny


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## Matt Grosch

first, it sounds like people get these dogs fairly regularly, and you hear about them getting returned/etc


and by asking what is meant, Im asking for someone that hasnt dealt with it prior, what is it that the see that makes it apparent the dog is too much for them (and I mean a squared away owner that just lacks experience, not an idiot that is going to do all kinds of stuff wrong)


just curious, because other than a flat out nasty, anti-social, no will to please having dog, I wonder what the difference between the "fire breathing monsters" and regular good working dogs is


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## Guest

just curious, because other than a flat out nasty, anti-social, no will to please having dog, I wonder what the difference between the "fire breathing monsters" and regular good working dogs is[/QUOTE]


patience, trust and understanding of the handler and dog to work as a team


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## Brian Anderson

Matt Grosch said:


> first, it sounds like people get these dogs fairly regularly, and you hear about them getting returned/etc
> 
> 
> and by asking what is meant, Im asking for someone that hasnt dealt with it prior, what is it that the see that makes it apparent the dog is too much for them (and I mean a squared away owner that just lacks experience, not an idiot that is going to do all kinds of stuff wrong)
> 
> 
> just curious, because other than a flat out nasty, anti-social, no will to please having dog, I wonder what the difference between the "fire breathing monsters" and regular good working dogs is


When the dog comes up the line and eats your ass up ... it is very apparent that its to much dog and your to weak to deal with him. The difference between the fire breathing monsters and the other dog your referring to is *INTENSITY*. and balance and did I say intensity? They have that look and feel that you wont mistake. Upper tier Bitches bring the same level of intensity. A person who lacks experience and or insight into reading that kind of dog is in trouble before ever grabbing the line.


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## Tammy Cohen

One man's "fire breathing monster" can be another man's ideal working dog. It depends on the dog, the situation and the handler.

Some examples of a "hard to handle dog" May be

A dog that has tons of prey drive. The dog that takes your finger off for a ball or unloads and bites you in the calf because the decoy is out of reach and it can't help itself.

A dominant dog, one that when given a correction cranks his tail rolls his eyes at you and says "oh no you didn't!" And then proceeds to come up the leash and put you in your place. This dog may just flat out bite you and take your ball, bitch.

A dog with nerve issues or one that has been handled unfairly may become reactive to a correction and feel the need to defend itself.

Or a million other possible scenarios.


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## Christopher Jones

Tammy Cohen said:


> One man's "fire breathing monster" can be another man's ideal working dog. It depends on the dog, the situation and the handler.


I agree. Far too many times I have heard the terms, "Handler hard" and "Hander aggressive" thrown around and then when you see the dogs they are not. Its funny how you rarely see the term "Handler Soft" being used by people to describe their "Highly Trainable" dogs.


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## Brian Anderson

cranks his tail rolls his eyes at you and says "oh no you didn't!"

:evil:


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## rick smith

re: "are you thinking about adoptions of MWDs by chance? that's a little bit different discussion in a couple of ways (who would even know/want to adopt for one)"

"retired" mwd's are actually declared excess property (aka "junk") and screened for suitability for adoption. many ways this can happen. i rehomed two from our base .... one didn't work out and was returned to DOD stateside, but the other one, a 9 yr old Mal named Kuf ; aka "goof", (active duty handlers are usually not in a position to adopt), worked out well and became the base chaplain's dog to live out his silver years in the lap of luxury.....he worked his butt of for uncle sam and deserved a rest, just like any other vet, and he didn't whimp out on a medical reason either; and i saw him work many times 
- fwiw, the chaplain and his wife had two gsd's prior to military duty, but were not what i would consider experienced working dog owners/trainers
- and just like us humans, it took a few months to make the transition to "civilian life" 
- bottom line is some mwd's can also be pets and deserve a shot imo !


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## ann schnerre

rick, i wasn't sayin' MWD's couldn't be transitioned to pet life, just trying to make the point that perhaps they might not transition to "NOVICE" handlers. (a few years ago i was actively looking into adopting from Offutt AFB...)

but the chaplain you speak of is not what i would call a "Novice",either.

to me, a novice is someone who has never had any direct experience in whatever discipline is being discussed; ie, i would be a novice is Schutzhund/mondio/whatever, but i am NOT a novice in handling/OB training dogs, especially GSD/Rott/large breed mutts.

i guess this boils down to definition of terms, ie, "novice". so matt---more detail?


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## ann schnerre

Matt Grosch said:


> Im asking for someone that hasnt dealt with it prior, what is it that the see that makes it apparent the dog is too much for them (and I mean a squared away owner that just lacks experience, not an idiot that is going to do all kinds of stuff wrong)


i think (cause i'd be a great example of above): the dog giving me the big finger for even the most basic OB: sitz, platz, fuss. if it came to a fight on the simplest stuff, it would be un-doable for upper level anything. JMO.


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## Harry Keely

rick smith said:


> re: "are you thinking about adoptions of mwds by chance? That's a little bit different discussion in a couple of ways (who would even know/want to adopt for one)"
> 
> "retired" mwd's are actually declared excess property (aka "junk") and screened for suitability for adoption. Many ways this can happen. I rehomed two from our base .... One didn't work out and was returned to dod stateside, but the other one, a 9 yr old mal named kuf ; aka "goof", (active duty handlers are usually not in a position to adopt), worked out well and became the base chaplain's dog to live out his silver years in the lap of luxury.....he worked his butt of for uncle sam and deserved a rest, just like any other vet, and he didn't whimp out on a medical reason either; and i saw him work many times
> - fwiw, the chaplain and his wife had two gsd's prior to military duty, but were not what i would consider experienced working dog owners/trainers
> - and just like us humans, it took a few months to make the transition to "civilian life"
> - bottom line is some mwd's can also be pets and deserve a shot imo !


amen=d>


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## Matt Grosch

Brian Anderson said:


> When the dog comes up the line and eats your ass up ... it is very apparent that its to much dog and your to weak to deal with him. The difference between the fire breathing monsters and the other dog your referring to is *INTENSITY*. and balance and did I say intensity? They have that look and feel that you wont mistake. Upper tier Bitches bring the same level of intensity. A person who lacks experience and or insight into reading that kind of dog is in trouble before ever grabbing the line.




this makes sense, and was kind of what I was getting at, but then again, ive heard experienced dog people bring up dogs that were some of the most hard core (during bite work) but social, good family dogs at other times

I have a good dog for me, friendly, social, high will to please, and for the most part (unless its dog aggression when on leash) very handler sensitive (he listens) .....he also does very well in bitework and ive been told he is very civil/serious

you just here about these dogs a lot, like with two recent stud dogs being discussed, it has made me wonder before (since everyone probably has the urge to think they would want a dog like that) what I would see different

and other than a dog with absolutely no will to please, or a dog that gets so revved up in drive that it doesnt listen, cant focus, and might bite someone within range, or the handler (out of frustation/etc) ....I cant picture what the real problems would be


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## Matt Grosch

(and tell me if im wrong, but it seems to me that there are guys that can handle women, and guys that cant, and it would be similar with dogs......and maybe even the same type guy/personality)


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## Peter Cavallaro

just curious, because other than a flat out nasty, anti-social, no will to please having dog, I wonder what the difference between the "fire breathing monsters" and regular good working dogs is[/QUOTE]


Matt related to your question i am interested in what these dogs would end up like if they just never had any stimulation/agitation ever. 

with hunting dogs i have seen some raised as pets in urban environments in good homes and they ended up very pet like, pups from the same litter were switched on (read that as blooded on live game) so their innate genetic traits kicked in when they were young and they became the killing machines they were bred to be. 

we here about the proverbial off switch, is there such thing as a genetic switch??


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## Peter Cavallaro

Matt Grosch said:


> (and tell me if im wrong, but it seems to me that there are guys that can handle women, and guys that cant, and it would be similar with dogs......and maybe even the same type guy/personality)


 
man do you like to live dangerously, i'm off this


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## Matt Grosch

just from reading and talking to people here, it seems like there are awesome working dogs that are social, and awesome working dogs that are not social (kinda like soldiers/cops?)

this has come up a lot too, one thread was talking about these dogs being family pets (something more important in the U.S.) and a top breeder took it to mean people questioned the dogs he produced, I tried to clarify that its two separate issues (because everyone knows they produce some of the best dogs around)


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## Harry Keely

Christopher Jones said:


> I agree. Far too many times I have heard the terms, "Handler hard" and "Hander aggressive" thrown around and then when you see the dogs they are not. Its funny how you rarely see the term "Handler Soft" being used by people to describe their "Highly Trainable" dogs.


Yup I agree I have heard and sat back and watched the terms, man eater, handler hard, handler agressive, dog will come up the leash and eat your ass, then in return have not seen any of the crap that these people have said or talked of the dog, yes I have seen some of it but most the time its idiots that get the dogs really shouldnt even own the dog to begin with.

Other thing I see is people rushing as soon as they get the dog to do bitework the same day or that night or the next day, dog doesnt do exactly what they expect, they yank and crank the dog and boom they get nailed or the dog comes up the leash. Not the dogs fault but the idiot owning the dog. We have owned these dogs myself and my wife and yet to have a problem with these so called problem dogs knock on wood, makes you wonder that it had to be the past handlers lack of knowledge, impatience, frustration and handler skills ya know. Also have had dogs that had such and such problem and wont do this or that and before ya know it after running a few scenarios boom there like a locked on missle.

Your right I have never heard those words " handler soft ".


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## Matt Grosch

but if "handler hard" just meant the dog doesnt listen or respond well, wouldnt everyone want a "handler sensitive" dog?



(maybe if they had a less tough sounding word for the negative quality and a less gay word for the good one)


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## Harry Keely

Just popped in my head so going to say it --- Let me some it up yes there are idiot dogs ( not going to use any of this terminiology ) out there and dogs that are straight up bastards, but I would bet to say its been brought on by handlers and not the dogs, yes you can say genetics and yes some of it might be but its not all the genetics or the dogs fault because then every dog would have to be one way and we all know theres no such thing. So in my conclusion its the HANDLER's fault, for all these silly terms to exist.:-\"


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## Maren Bell Jones

Matt Grosch said:


> but if "handler hard" just meant the dog doesnt listen or respond well, wouldnt everyone want a "handler sensitive" dog?
> 
> 
> 
> (maybe if they had a less tough sounding word for the negative quality and a less gay word for the good one)


How bout biddable? I don't need a handler hard fire breather, just a nice biddable sport dog. I suspect most other people don't either...


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## Matt Grosch

^ for whatever reason, that term has always sounded very annoying and I refuse to use it (just like smiley faces at the end of texts) 



first time I heard it when someone said they want their dog to be 'biddable' Im sure my face went 'wtf are you talking bout??




makes me think of the black crowes song, "hard to handle"


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## Maren Bell Jones

I thought of that song too...how about "agreeable?"


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## jeff gamber

Matt Grosch said:


> you just here about these dogs a lot, like with two recent stud dogs being discussed, it has made me wonder before (since everyone probably has the urge to think they would want a dog like that) what I would see different
> 
> and other than a dog with absolutely no will to please, or a dog that gets so revved up in drive that it doesnt listen, cant focus, and might bite someone within range, or the handler (out of frustation/etc) ....I cant picture what the real problems would be


Matt what you would see different would vary tremendously from dog to dog, not just what I'm assuming you're referring to Carlos as one of the dogs. It's is always going to be very different from every dog because of their style of training, past, and most recent experiences that effect their character and reaction to or trigger the "unwanted" behavior ie: coming upleash etc.

Example: I had a very hard, intense Malinois Onex from Mikes Place chewed up three handlers before me and one of them had a .45 on his hip to take him out lol. Simply put, one of his main issues was extreme crate/kennel aggression. Pretty bad. With enough bonding time, when he showed happiness to see me, it was time to take him out and walk and play with him. Once we had enough playtime, off to the Schutzhund field, because that was his discipline in Germany. Had zero conflict or issue and was sold to miami PD.
Harry keely met this dog and can vouch for his intensity lol.

Example 2: Carlos very hard dog. Took it very slow, but his issues was not kennel aggression, actually quite the opposite. Very social, but looking to punk and pick a fight at anytime and also some trust issues. If he decides to come, very fast, and 200% committed. Leaving him on a kennel was not the approach, had to push the envelope and be his buddy with very small controlled steps. I prepared to have "conflict" on my terms and keep it calm and controlled, did not over punish out of adrenaline or anger, used a lot of muzzle time to keep us both safe and now we are doing well ad buddies (knock on wood) and go to the park and play some two ball a few weeks in.
Carlos by no stretch of the word is a great and awesome dog. Affectionate, neutral to anyone but me, but very serious. In another week I will do the complete morning and afternoon knpv exercises with him, minus the river send and bicycle. No rivers close to me in Florida and not really wanting to make a bike with no spokes lol.

These are general examples, not discussing body language, when to and when not to use obedience as your friend, etc...

Also gathering as much information about the dog as humanly possible also helps immensely.

Hope this helps....


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## Matt Grosch

I guess carlos would be one one many, but it sounds like a lot of good dogs, like that light colored mal there is a thread about now, many of the van leeuwen dogs, etc, have a reputation as not being a good match for a first time owner, not easy to handle, etc

my impression prior to getting one of my first working dog was a mix of 'although it might be cool to have a dog like that, I better not get one'


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## Kara Fitzpatrick

Peter Cavallaro said:


> man do you like to live dangerously, i'm off this


hahahahahahh. i love being compared with dogs... better than pigs.


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## jeff gamber

Matt Grosch said:


> I guess carlos would be one one many, but it sounds like a lot of good dogs, like that light colored mal there is a thread about now, many of the van leeuwen dogs, etc, have a reputation as not being a good match for a first time owner, not easy to handle, etc
> 
> my impression prior to getting one of my first working dog was a mix of 'although it might be cool to have a dog like that, I better not get one'


Matt we have spoken before and I honestly think you seem to be a pretty cool guy. It's always good to know what you want and get there when you're comfortable. Any dog social, aggressive, handler hard, handler soft, any of those other terms thrown around, it's all just applying common sense, logic, and some problem solving, pepper in some experience and knowledge from veterans and you have yourself a cocktail to do whatever you want to do man.


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## Harry Keely

jeff gamber said:


> Matt what you would see different would vary tremendously from dog to dog, not just what I'm assuming you're referring to Carlos as one of the dogs. It's is always going to be very different from every dog because of their style of training, past, and most recent experiences that effect their character and reaction to or trigger the "unwanted" behavior ie: coming upleash etc.
> 
> Example: I had a very hard, intense Malinois Onex from Mikes Place chewed up three handlers before me and one of them had a .45 on his hip to take him out lol. Simply put, one of his main issues was extreme crate/kennel aggression. Pretty bad. With enough bonding time, when he showed happiness to see me, it was time to take him out and walk and play with him. Once we had enough playtime, off to the Schutzhund field, because that was his discipline in Germany. Had zero conflict or issue and was sold to miami PD.
> Harry keely met this dog and can vouch for his intensity lol.
> 
> Example 2: Carlos very hard dog. Took it very slow, but his issues was not kennel aggression, actually quite the opposite. Very social, but looking to punk and pick a fight at anytime and also some trust issues. If he decides to come, very fast, and 200% committed. Leaving him on a kennel was not the approach, had to push the envelope and be his buddy with very small controlled steps. I prepared to have "conflict" on my terms and keep it calm and controlled, did not over punish out of adrenaline or anger, used a lot of muzzle time to keep us both safe and now we are doing well ad buddies (knock on wood) and go to the park and play some two ball a few weeks in.
> Carlos by no stretch of the word is a great and awesome dog. Affectionate, neutral to anyone but me, but very serious. In another week I will do the complete morning and afternoon knpv exercises with him, minus the river send and bicycle. No rivers close to me in Florida and not really wanting to make a bike with no spokes lol.
> 
> These are general examples, not discussing body language, when to and when not to use obedience as your friend, etc...
> 
> Also gathering as much information about the dog as humanly possible also helps immensely.
> 
> Hope this helps....


Yup Onex I can vouch for, dog was a BIG d**k, but like Jeff said overtime and proper bonding, boom issue fixed.


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## Chris Jones II

Being a novice that has been exposed to a few hard to handle dogs, I can say that it feels to me, reading a lot of the responses in this thread, that a lot of people make excuses for dogs in saying "it depends on the handler." From what I have seen, the dogs that are truly "hard to handle" are hard to handle for EVERYONE who handles them. 

In fact, the only people that can handle the dogs are the dog's handler. Noone else can even get near the damn dog to do anything other than give it a piece of liver unless the dog wants to be near them. 

Maybe you guys aren't seeing dogs that are REALLY hard to handle? 

I think a lot of what people consider to be hard to handle is just a lot of fluff and blather. "Hard to handle" is usually just a drivey dog with a crappy handler. Bring in someone with some finesse and the dog is a focused lamb. 

With a dog that is really just hard to handle the dog is going to go up the leash at anyone, especially a goon who thinks whaling on the dog with corrections will calm the dog down or put him in his place. I've seen it a bunch of times the past few months and I've also seen how well a hard to handle dog can be trained with the right person, a person who can read the dog very well and avoid conflict rather than instigating conflict in an attempt to squash the dog into some preconceived mold. The dog is still a monster and you can see it working in there, but the the monster is not trying to bust out, it is just watching.


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## Chris Jones II

jeff gamber said:


> Matt what you would see different would vary tremendously from dog to dog, not just what I'm assuming you're referring to Carlos as one of the dogs. It's is always going to be very different from every dog because of their style of training, past, and most recent experiences that effect their character and reaction to or trigger the "unwanted" behavior ie: coming upleash etc.
> 
> Example: I had a very hard, intense Malinois Onex from Mikes Place chewed up three handlers before me and one of them had a .45 on his hip to take him out lol. Simply put, one of his main issues was extreme crate/kennel aggression. Pretty bad. With enough bonding time, when he showed happiness to see me, it was time to take him out and walk and play with him. Once we had enough playtime, off to the Schutzhund field, because that was his discipline in Germany. Had zero conflict or issue and was sold to miami PD.
> Harry keely met this dog and can vouch for his intensity lol.
> 
> Example 2: Carlos very hard dog. Took it very slow, but his issues was not kennel aggression, actually quite the opposite. Very social, but looking to punk and pick a fight at anytime and also some trust issues. If he decides to come, very fast, and 200% committed. Leaving him on a kennel was not the approach, had to push the envelope and be his buddy with very small controlled steps. I prepared to have "conflict" on my terms and keep it calm and controlled, did not over punish out of adrenaline or anger, used a lot of muzzle time to keep us both safe and now we are doing well ad buddies (knock on wood) and go to the park and play some two ball a few weeks in.
> Carlos by no stretch of the word is a great and awesome dog. Affectionate, neutral to anyone but me, but very serious. In another week I will do the complete morning and afternoon knpv exercises with him, minus the river send and bicycle. No rivers close to me in Florida and not really wanting to make a bike with no spokes lol.
> 
> These are general examples, not discussing body language, when to and when not to use obedience as your friend, etc...
> 
> Also gathering as much information about the dog as humanly possible also helps immensely.
> 
> Hope this helps....


Sorry to double post but that pretty much sums it up. I wouldn't consider those dogs to be hard to handle from what I have seen.


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## jeff gamber

Chris Jones II said:


> Sorry to double post but that pretty much sums it up. I wouldn't consider those dogs to be hard to handle from what I have seen.


I agree. I believe that in many instances an absolutely wrong approach can be taken with a dog by his new handler, and then that dog and too many other dogs get labeled "hard to handle, monster, extreme, etc."


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## Lisa Radcliffe

Matt Grosch said:


> (and tell me if im wrong, but it seems to me that there are guys that can handle women, and guys that cant, and it would be similar with dogs......and maybe even the same type guy/personality)


Now that's funny )))) how would it be similar with dog's??? no reply needed!!! lol


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## maggie fraser

Lisa Radcliffe said:


> Now that's funny )))) how would it be similar with dog's??? no reply needed!!! lol


Actually, it isn't funny...it is very very sad ! What a poor guy !


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## Holden Sawyer

LOL one of the first things they teach in "women handling class 101" is not to say that kind of shit outloud in front of women. Kinda tends to make women come up the leash and nail your ass. *running*


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## Harry Keely

jeff gamber said:


> I agree. I believe that in many instances an absolutely wrong approach can be taken with a dog by his new handler, and then that dog and too many other dogs get labeled "hard to handle, monster, extreme, etc."


Thats not a statement but a fact, its 95% of the cases i would venture to say and have seen and heard of the dogs that have been labeled this here in the states.


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## Sandra King

Tammy Cohen said:


> One man's "fire breathing monster" can be another man's ideal working dog. It depends on the dog, the situation and the handler.
> 
> Some examples of a "hard to handle dog" May be
> 
> A dog that has tons of prey drive. The dog that takes your finger off for a ball or unloads and bites you in the calf because the decoy is out of reach and it can't help itself.


My bitch is like that but I wouldn't call her hard to handle. She's just intense and a preymonster but nothing to really worry about. If she gets my hand, it's because I'm not fast enough. 
A prey monster should be the least to worry about. It's the ones that are unpredictable that you need to worry about. A prey monster is predictable. You have a ball in your hand, the dog is going for it. Taking the sleeve away? Better be quick about it. 

Unpredictable dogs are the ones that are hard to handle. The ones that you can hardly read, have a super high pain resistance. I've seen people hitting a dog with a chair over the head to fight him off and the dog kept coming at their own handler. 



> A dominant dog, one that when given a correction cranks his tail rolls his eyes at you and says "oh no you didn't!" And then proceeds to come up the leash and put you in your place. This dog may just flat out bite you and take your ball, bitch.
> 
> *A dog with nerve issues or one that has been handled unfairly may become reactive to a correction and feel the need to defend itself.*
> 
> Or a million other possible scenarios.


Also called Angstbeisser (fearbiter) and a man-made issue.


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## Adam Rawlings

Sandra,

How do you figure a dog that's hard to handle is unpredictable? I think you may be stepping into territory you're unfamiliar with.


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## Sandra King

Adam Rawlings said:


> Sandra,
> 
> How do you figure a dog that's hard to handle is unpredictable? I think you may be stepping into territory you're unfamiliar with.


No, I didn't say that all hard to handle dogs are unpredictable, I said that it is the unpredictable ones that are hard to handle because you never know when they are coming at you and dogs like that are out there. 

Are there other dogs out there that are hard to handle? Absolutely! 

But the ones that are hard to read, seem to be unpredictable (over the time and years you can predict reactions) and have a super high pain tolerance an will pick a fight at any time they get a chance those are the ones that are called "real", sometimes they are even man-made and then you got the handlers boasting in glory and proud to show you the many scars and blue marks they got from their own dogs.


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## Doug Zaga

jeff gamber said:


> Example 2: Carlos very hard dog. Took it very slow, but his issues was not kennel aggression, actually quite the opposite.


 
Jeff can you try and explain what you are doing and have done with Carlos specifically to work on it?

Thank you,
Doug


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## jeff gamber

Doug Zaga said:


> Jeff can you try and explain what you are doing and have done with Carlos specifically to work on it?
> 
> Thank you,
> Doug


PM sent. I feel as described above I have had successful approaches to the dogs I have had the chance to work with. I think to go into great detail may invite a wdf hazing (just kidding. Well, not really lol). What's that saying?

"the only thing two dog trainers can agree on is what the third is doing wrong?"

I do strongly believe in information and experience sharing so feel free to PM me back and we can discuss further...


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## Doug Zaga

Thanks Jeff...I pm'ed you back.


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## Jim Nash

jeff gamber said:


> PM sent. I feel as described above I have had successful approaches to the dogs I have had the chance to work with. I think to go into great detail may invite a wdf hazing (just kidding. Well, not really lol). What's that saying?
> 
> "the only thing two dog trainers can agree on is what the third is doing wrong?"
> 
> I do strongly believe in information and experience sharing so feel free to PM me back and we can discuss further...


Come on !!!!

Finally something new and informative and you wuss out . Nothing should matter if you are having success with it no matter how hard some might tell you you aren't . Come on Jeff don't be that guy .


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## will fernandez

Just another something to sell but nothing to share.

Sent from my SCH-I510 using Tapatalk


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## Joby Becker

Sandra King said:


> Unpredictable dogs are the ones that are hard to handle. The ones that you can hardly read, have a super high pain resistance. I've seen people hitting a dog with a chair over the head to fight him off and the dog kept coming at their own handler.


I really can't say i have met an unpredictable dog. I have seen dogs that have done things that surprise people who do not know dogs very well, or at least don't know the dog in question very well, or are just idiots because.

I have owned dogs who's littermates were put down as being unstable, or unpredictable, I found my dogs from those breedings were neither unstable or unpredictable, they were just not the type of dog that you would want your neighbors or your parents to end up with, because they would get themselves or someone else chewed up.


----------



## jeff gamber

Jim Nash said:


> Come on !!!!
> 
> Finally something new and informative and you wuss out . Nothing should matter if you are having success with it no matter how hard some might tell you you aren't . Come on Jeff don't be that guy .


UGH, I feel disaster, thread locked, all in my future lol. Okay Jim, you don't have anymore gauntlets in your backpocket though, do you?

As I posted earlier I have utilized different approaches to the dogs I have had the chance to handle. Onex from Mike's Place was just a simple bonding game, believe me there was zero misreading his feelings for somebody, has no hesitation to come fast and hard. Plus he is a large malinois, very hard to "leash control". Just a lot of kennel quality time, keeping his kennel clean, watching a movie on an iPAD by his kennel, and a lot of bribing. Once the aggression stopped through the kennel, it was walks of different tempos in the backyard, playtime, obedience, then the schH field. Great, serious dog, very civil, super confident, went to Miami PD from me with zero conflict. 

Carlos, I tried to learn as much as I could about the dog. I know it would be important for me to succeed with him because of my friendship with his handler Gerrit Vos. Carlos is avery important dog to me and he brings me a lot of happiness to have, bond, work, and live with. When I was in Holland I trained and worked with Gerrit and got his advice along with Dick and Selena, and Jan Sieuw (Head Belgium Police Instructor/Handler). I learned that Carlos was trained up entirely under electric as most of Gerrit's club uses electric in most aspects of their traing for exercises, not just electric on the collar. I made a decision that physically fighting with Carlos would be a losing battle for a couple reasons. KNPV dogs are taught to fight and not stop, they are actually punished for stopping the fight too early. Carlos is a very strong and fast dog. SO, why fight with Carlos in that fashion by "leash control/choke collar", he will just fight or when he regains his energy resume fighting?! I decided to use "E" on our first day, not as corrective obedience, but as a tool if he decides to punch me in the face, I can punch him right back and hopefully win. Well, he definitely tried to throw a KO punch the first day with all he had unprovoked, just to punk me, and I "corrected" him back and I had a partial victory. After a few more "conversations" on Day 2 of a lesser degree, he began to submit with some attiude, but nonetheless, he submitted and I stopped the correction at that point. Any further punishment, even though he still showed aggression while submitting, I stopped because I did not want to lose trust and put him right back into fight. So when he gave me the behavoir I wanted, I stopped the behavoir he didn't want. I also improvised with a test the first night I got him. He was very social in the kennel, very social and decivous. I said okay, he's social lets take him out and see, right when I opened the door to clip the leash, boom, fired straight up and brought it. Again, I felt unfair/unpredictable behavoir, given his super social behavoir, so while petting him I checked his tolerance levels and brushed his teeth with my finger and boom fired back up (obviously, but it was a test for me). So, during the next week I implemented a lot of attention and kennel time with him, took him out 4-5 times a day so he knew he would go in and out (all with a muzzle), still flashes of anger, but all manageable. Over time we did OB in the muzzle, the process of putting the muzzle on and off was easier, started to give an inch, that would turn into a mile while doing our routine to "bring it" if he wanted, but I could still have a chance to protect myself. Nothing, good body language, very palyful and fair. The final test to see where we were was to pet him through the kennel, brush his teeth with my finger again, and nothing, tail still wagging, still playful. So, I popped open the door and took him for a 60 minute walk, to the beach for a swim, and now playing two-ball and outing him. Now we are like good buddies, takes a fair correction, responsive and is the dog that Gerrit Vos described him as. Fair, hard, confident, and a monster on the field.

I try to know, when I have to put him into strict obedience if I feel conflict arising, but no e-collar in any of our daily stuff. Just a leash, collar, and voice corrections. We are set to run a morning and afternoon KNPV routine in the next couple weeks.

I can't say enough the methods I listed were used by me to achieve my early goals when receiving a dog like him. Every dog is different and everyone can have their own opinion.


----------



## jeff gamber

will fernandez said:


> Just another something to sell but nothing to share.
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I510 using Tapatalk


Will are you referring to me? What am I trying to sell?


----------



## Shane Woodlief

Jeff don't forget the "prayer" stuff brother


----------



## jeff gamber

Doug Zaga said:


> Jeff can you try and explain what you are doing and have done with Carlos specifically to work on it?
> 
> Thank you,
> Doug





Shane Woodlief said:


> Jeff don't forget the "prayer" stuff brother


Oh man, thats so bad on me. Serious thanks to Shane for the prayers. Not a better person out there.


----------



## Shane Woodlief

jeff gamber said:


> Oh man, thats so bad on me. Serious thanks to Shane for the prayers. Not a better person out there.


hahaha you the man Jeff.


----------



## Joby Becker

jeff gamber said:


> UGH, I feel disaster, thread locked, all in my future lol. Okay Jim, you don't have anymore gauntlets in your backpocket though, do you?
> 
> As I posted earlier I have utilized different approaches to the dogs I have had the chance to handle. Onex from Mike's Place was just a simple bonding game, believe me there was zero misreading his feelings for somebody, has no hesitation to come fast and hard. Plus he is a large malinois, very hard to "leash control". Just a lot of kennel quality time, keeping his kennel clean, watching a movie on an iPAD by his kennel, and a lot of bribing. Once the aggression stopped through the kennel, it was walks of different tempos in the backyard, playtime, obedience, then the schH field. Great, serious dog, very civil, super confident, went to Miami PD from me with zero conflict.
> 
> Carlos, I tried to learn as much as I could about the dog. I know it would be important for me to succeed with him because of my friendship with his handler Gerrit Vos. Carlos is avery important dog to me and he brings me a lot of happiness to have, bond, work, and live with. When I was in Holland I trained and worked with Gerrit and got his advice along with Dick and Selena, and Jan Sieuw (Head Belgium Police Instructor/Handler). I learned that Carlos was trained up entirely under electric as most of Gerrit's club uses electric in most aspects of their traing for exercises, not just electric on the collar. I made a decision that physically fighting with Carlos would be a losing battle for a couple reasons. KNPV dogs are taught to fight and not stop, they are actually punished for stopping the fight too early. Carlos is a very strong and fast dog. SO, why fight with Carlos in that fashion by "leash control/choke collar", he will just fight or when he regains his energy resume fighting?! I decided to use "E" on our first day, not as corrective obedience, but as a tool if he decides to punch me in the face, I can punch him right back and hopefully win. Well, he definitely tried to throw a KO punch the first day with all he had unprovoked, just to punk me, and I "corrected" him back and I had a partial victory. After a few more "conversations" on Day 2 of a lesser degree, he began to submit with some attiude, but nonetheless, he submitted and I stopped the correction at that point. Any further punishment, even though he still showed aggression while submitting, I stopped because I did not want to lose trust and put him right back into fight. So when he gave me the behavoir I wanted, I stopped the behavoir he didn't want. I also improvised with a test the first night I got him. He was very social in the kennel, very social and decivous. I said okay, he's social lets take him out and see, right when I opened the door to clip the leash, boom, fired straight up and brought it. Again, I felt unfair/unpredictable behavoir, given his super social behavoir, so while petting him I checked his tolerance levels and brushed his teeth with my finger and boom fired back up (obviously, but it was a test for me). So, during the next week I implemented a lot of attention and kennel time with him, took him out 4-5 times a day so he knew he would go in and out (all with a muzzle), still flashes of anger, but all manageable. Over time we did OB in the muzzle, the process of putting the muzzle on and off was easier, started to give an inch, that would turn into a mile while doing our routine to "bring it" if he wanted, but I could still have a chance to protect myself. Nothing, good body language, very palyful and fair. The final test to see where we were was to pet him through the kennel, brush his teeth with my finger again, and nothing, tail still wagging, still playful. So, I popped open the door and took him for a 60 minute walk, to the beach for a swim, and now playing two-ball and outing him. Now we are like good buddies, takes a fair correction, responsive and is the dog that Gerrit Vos described him as. Fair, hard, confident, and a monster on the field.
> 
> I try to know, when I have to put him into strict obedience if I feel conflict arising, but no e-collar in any of our daily stuff. Just a leash, collar, and voice corrections. We are set to run a morning and afternoon KNPV routine in the next couple weeks.
> 
> I can't say enough the methods I listed were used by me to achieve my early goals when receiving a dog like him. Every dog is different and everyone can have their own opinion.


sounds like a good plan to me. I have spent many hours camping out by a kenneled dog I just picked up.

Did he have a muzzle on when you got him? Just curious as to how you got the muzzle on him so soon?


----------



## Jim Nash

Thanks , you're not getting any criticism from me unless you wuss out again . .

I don't know the dog and if you're having success how can I argue that . With the different personalities in dogs it's interesting hearing others approaches to some . Can possibly be another tool in the tool box later for other dogs .


----------



## jeff gamber

@ Jody

No, it was an option, bit i decided against it. The muzzle was a two man operation the first 10 days. 

Also thanks to Ron gnodde for his advice with carlos.


----------



## jeff gamber

Oops @ joby

Stupid iPhone, eyes aren't what they used to be.


----------



## Doug Zaga

Thanks Jeff for sharing!


----------



## Bob Scott

jeff gamber said:


> UGH, I feel disaster, thread locked, all in my future lol. Okay Jim, you don't have anymore gauntlets in your backpocket though, do you?
> 
> As I posted earlier I have utilized different approaches to the dogs I have had the chance to handle. Onex from Mike's Place was just a simple bonding game, believe me there was zero misreading his feelings for somebody, has no hesitation to come fast and hard. Plus he is a large malinois, very hard to "leash control". Just a lot of kennel quality time, keeping his kennel clean, watching a movie on an iPAD by his kennel, and a lot of bribing. Once the aggression stopped through the kennel, it was walks of different tempos in the backyard, playtime, obedience, then the schH field. Great, serious dog, very civil, super confident, went to Miami PD from me with zero conflict.
> 
> Carlos, I tried to learn as much as I could about the dog. I know it would be important for me to succeed with him because of my friendship with his handler Gerrit Vos. Carlos is avery important dog to me and he brings me a lot of happiness to have, bond, work, and live with. When I was in Holland I trained and worked with Gerrit and got his advice along with Dick and Selena, and Jan Sieuw (Head Belgium Police Instructor/Handler). I learned that Carlos was trained up entirely under electric as most of Gerrit's club uses electric in most aspects of their traing for exercises, not just electric on the collar. I made a decision that physically fighting with Carlos would be a losing battle for a couple reasons. KNPV dogs are taught to fight and not stop, they are actually punished for stopping the fight too early. Carlos is a very strong and fast dog. SO, why fight with Carlos in that fashion by "leash control/choke collar", he will just fight or when he regains his energy resume fighting?! I decided to use "E" on our first day, not as corrective obedience, but as a tool if he decides to punch me in the face, I can punch him right back and hopefully win. Well, he definitely tried to throw a KO punch the first day with all he had unprovoked, just to punk me, and I "corrected" him back and I had a partial victory. After a few more "conversations" on Day 2 of a lesser degree, he began to submit with some attiude, but nonetheless, he submitted and I stopped the correction at that point. Any further punishment, even though he still showed aggression while submitting, I stopped because I did not want to lose trust and put him right back into fight. So when he gave me the behavoir I wanted, I stopped the behavoir he didn't want. I also improvised with a test the first night I got him. He was very social in the kennel, very social and decivous. I said okay, he's social lets take him out and see, right when I opened the door to clip the leash, boom, fired straight up and brought it. Again, I felt unfair/unpredictable behavoir, given his super social behavoir, so while petting him I checked his tolerance levels and brushed his teeth with my finger and boom fired back up (obviously, but it was a test for me). So, during the next week I implemented a lot of attention and kennel time with him, took him out 4-5 times a day so he knew he would go in and out (all with a muzzle), still flashes of anger, but all manageable. Over time we did OB in the muzzle, the process of putting the muzzle on and off was easier, started to give an inch, that would turn into a mile while doing our routine to "bring it" if he wanted, but I could still have a chance to protect myself. Nothing, good body language, very palyful and fair. The final test to see where we were was to pet him through the kennel, brush his teeth with my finger again, and nothing, tail still wagging, still playful. So, I popped open the door and took him for a 60 minute walk, to the beach for a swim, and now playing two-ball and outing him. Now we are like good buddies, takes a fair correction, responsive and is the dog that Gerrit Vos described him as. Fair, hard, confident, and a monster on the field.
> 
> I try to know, when I have to put him into strict obedience if I feel conflict arising, but no e-collar in any of our daily stuff. Just a leash, collar, and voice corrections. We are set to run a morning and afternoon KNPV routine in the next couple weeks.
> 
> I can't say enough the methods I listed were used by me to achieve my early goals when receiving a dog like him. Every dog is different and everyone can have their own opinion.



I like this post!
I've said it a million times, "Why pick a fight with a dog that loves to fight"!
Maybe not a dog I'm going to toss cookies at all day but what your talking about is a ton better then going at it with both looking for a fight.
Establish a bond, friendship even, rather then start with a "I'll show you who's boss" attitude!
You mentioned in another post about sitting around and doing a bit of bribing with the dog.
Your a treat trainer Dude! :grin: :wink:


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

Thanks Jeff for taking the time to share. I was wondering if its a matter of pack leadership, respect , fairness and genuine like of the dog. Or first GSD was a bitch in a shelter slated to be put down. They gave my dad 2 weeks and said if he could walk her out of the kennel, he could have her. My mother said every day on his way to work he'd stop and read Shakespeare to her. At the end of the two weeks, he walked her out of there. I don't think you're a wuss at all. Its called instinct trainer and love for the dog and want to see him succeed.

Terrasita


----------



## Jim Nash

jeff gamber said:


> @ Jody
> 
> No, it was an option, bit i decided against it. The muzzle was a two man operation the first 10 days.


I had similar problems with Bingo starting out . Not saying they are similar dogs my guess is they are definately not . More like similar problems for different reasons .

When I first got him he was 2 and sold as "green" . From dealing with him I think he had alot of training probably Schtz. but it was abandoned because of his handler aggression after much work trying .

He had only been in the states for a week or two when I got him . The vendor stated he was handler agressive when he looked at him initially in Europe and turned on him when he pulled him away from pissing on something he was not supposed to . 

Probably lucky for me when I got him he still had some jetlag . I wasn't seeing the dog that was described to me , strong , good prey , but handler aggressive . I wasn't seeing the aggresssion and he just seemed average in strength(confidence). I spent the first few weeks just bonding , he was a hunting , searching , retrieving fool and we did alot of 2 ball and eased into some OB . About a week or 2 later I started seeing a different dog . He became more possessive and aggressive guarding his toys , food , his kennel and very aggresive with me once in the squad car . 

About this time I was progressing in what I expected from him in OB and with him getting stronger it was very bad timing . The problem with my dog was he became handler aggressive (turning full on bites) for everything , when he was being disobedient , but most importantly when he felt unsure or felt threatened so I had to figure out what brought on the aggression in order to deal with it appropiately . 

I didn't figure this out right away but learned the hard way through my heavy handedness because my first K9 was very hard , had no toy or food drive but learned fast and learned just as quickly how to get around doing things he learned when he didn't want to do them . With him I learned to be very strict . Once this was figured out he was a very easy dog to train because it was black and white . With my new dog this route was a recipe for disaster . I was forced to become a better trainer .

With the new dog(Bingo) it was slow and steady building a solid foundation for is Dr Jekyll side , using toys and food to teach, then once I was sure he learned it physical corrections then came on for his Mr Hyde side .

But before getting to the correction level I had to teach him to even take a physical correction with a chain collar . I know it sounds weird but I would just slowly start give small tugs on the collar and either praise for not reacting to rewarding with food or throwing a kong behaving correctly and I slowly worked my way up in the strength of tugs on the collar . The ecollar worked ok with him for some things but a prong brought on a very strong aggressive reaction . 

The muzzle initially was a no go . I would trick him into getting into it , sometimes fight and he would fight that thing non stop and never give up til he was exhausted . Later I spent several weeks just getting him to wear it . Took him to a quiet park at night with noone around and just sat with him feeding him through the muzzle for being calm . SLOWLY I worked up to just walking a few feet and rewarding him for being calm because more then that would stimulate him enough to start fighting the muzzle again and once he got into that mode it was tough to bring him out of it . Eventually after a long time I actually got him to work in muzzle during searches and muzzle fights . It was a long road and I was suprised to get him that far . He wasn't perfect , he tended to bark in muzzle while fighting , something I don't like but it was also obvious he was trying to bite also . I think it was just a way to get rid of some of the tension built up wearing it .

With my dog it was slow and steady teaching then he would tell me through aggression at times if I was moving too fast on a new behavior . If that happened I did just enough to stop his attack something he would do if it happened during learning . At some point he just figured out he messed up and gave in and in turn I realized I messed up and backed up on training that behavior . If he aggresssed for being corrected for being disobedient it was usually a full on fight and he saw god many times . 

Bingo had a bad combination of issues to train around and I agree with Bob on not picking a fight when you don't have to and with Bingo I did that . But there are also times with some dogs that a fight is inevitable if you want to move on and get past certain issues and I did that with Bingo also .


----------



## Harry Keely

jeff gamber said:


> UGH, I feel disaster, thread locked, all in my future lol. Okay Jim, you don't have anymore gauntlets in your backpocket though, do you?
> 
> As I posted earlier I have utilized different approaches to the dogs I have had the chance to handle. Onex from Mike's Place was just a simple bonding game, believe me there was zero misreading his feelings for somebody, has no hesitation to come fast and hard. Plus he is a large malinois, very hard to "leash control". Just a lot of kennel quality time, keeping his kennel clean, watching a movie on an iPAD by his kennel, and a lot of bribing. Once the aggression stopped through the kennel, it was walks of different tempos in the backyard, playtime, obedience, then the schH field. Great, serious dog, very civil, super confident, went to Miami PD from me with zero conflict.
> 
> Carlos, I tried to learn as much as I could about the dog. I know it would be important for me to succeed with him because of my friendship with his handler Gerrit Vos. Carlos is avery important dog to me and he brings me a lot of happiness to have, bond, work, and live with. When I was in Holland I trained and worked with Gerrit and got his advice along with Dick and Selena, and Jan Sieuw (Head Belgium Police Instructor/Handler). I learned that Carlos was trained up entirely under electric as most of Gerrit's club uses electric in most aspects of their traing for exercises, not just electric on the collar. I made a decision that physically fighting with Carlos would be a losing battle for a couple reasons. KNPV dogs are taught to fight and not stop, they are actually punished for stopping the fight too early. Carlos is a very strong and fast dog. SO, why fight with Carlos in that fashion by "leash control/choke collar", he will just fight or when he regains his energy resume fighting?! I decided to use "E" on our first day, not as corrective obedience, but as a tool if he decides to punch me in the face, I can punch him right back and hopefully win. Well, he definitely tried to throw a KO punch the first day with all he had unprovoked, just to punk me, and I "corrected" him back and I had a partial victory. After a few more "conversations" on Day 2 of a lesser degree, he began to submit with some attiude, but nonetheless, he submitted and I stopped the correction at that point. Any further punishment, even though he still showed aggression while submitting, I stopped because I did not want to lose trust and put him right back into fight. So when he gave me the behavoir I wanted, I stopped the behavoir he didn't want. I also improvised with a test the first night I got him. He was very social in the kennel, very social and decivous. I said okay, he's social lets take him out and see, right when I opened the door to clip the leash, boom, fired straight up and brought it. Again, I felt unfair/unpredictable behavoir, given his super social behavoir, so while petting him I checked his tolerance levels and brushed his teeth with my finger and boom fired back up (obviously, but it was a test for me). So, during the next week I implemented a lot of attention and kennel time with him, took him out 4-5 times a day so he knew he would go in and out (all with a muzzle), still flashes of anger, but all manageable. Over time we did OB in the muzzle, the process of putting the muzzle on and off was easier, started to give an inch, that would turn into a mile while doing our routine to "bring it" if he wanted, but I could still have a chance to protect myself. Nothing, good body language, very palyful and fair. The final test to see where we were was to pet him through the kennel, brush his teeth with my finger again, and nothing, tail still wagging, still playful. So, I popped open the door and took him for a 60 minute walk, to the beach for a swim, and now playing two-ball and outing him. Now we are like good buddies, takes a fair correction, responsive and is the dog that Gerrit Vos described him as. Fair, hard, confident, and a monster on the field.
> 
> I try to know, when I have to put him into strict obedience if I feel conflict arising, but no e-collar in any of our daily stuff. Just a leash, collar, and voice corrections. We are set to run a morning and afternoon KNPV routine in the next couple weeks.
> 
> I can't say enough the methods I listed were used by me to achieve my early goals when receiving a dog like him. Every dog is different and everyone can have their own opinion.


Wow your actually sharing the "Gamber Method", I am surprised but good for you, seems like people are open and receptive to it, which is a good thing, kudos Jeff.


----------



## Harry Keely

Shane Woodlief said:


> Jeff don't forget the "prayer" stuff brother


I prefer these methods Jeff and Shane

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kmv3WlKa6U8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p1uQ3SQEPko


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

So for Jeff and Jim, how do you protect yourself. Are you just quick enough and strong enough to keep the dog from connecting or donning some sort of protective gear in case they connect so you can see it through?


Terrasita


----------



## Jim Nash

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> So for Jeff and Jim, how do you protect yourself. Are you just quick enough and strong enough to keep the dog from connecting or donning some sort of protective gear in case they connect so you can see it through?
> 
> 
> Terrasita


Sometimes I was quick enough if I had a leash on him but that's not my strong suit . The only time I wore "protective" gear was when I finally realized I had to cure his attacking me everytime I opened the squad car door . It was my thick leather cop jacket that I bought when I was a rookie and thought I looked cool in the heavy damn thing until I started to have to see a chiropractor bacause of it . Hadn't worn it in a long time but I got my money out of it that night even though he put some holes in it . I did occassionally use the muzzle once I got him use to that . 

I've got alot of scars . Not proud of them other then I learned alot from each one of them and so did Bingo .


----------



## Bob Scott

I've only had one dog in my life that I would categorize like this dog and Bingo. 65lb mutt that hated most folks, most dogs and life in general. Not sure looking back if the dog was truely handler aggressive (doubtful now) or just nucking futs and saw me as more of a daily challenge then an owner.
I was young enough, fast enough and dumb enough to enjoy the challenge. 
I still look back at the dog now and wonder what I could have done with him had I used my brains insted of brawn. 
With a bit of expierience and nads it's not that hard to physically "control" a dog like this but It seems to be a constant battle. WHY???
I'm old now. I want to use what's left of my brains! :wink:


----------



## Shane Woodlief

Harry Keely said:


> I prefer these methods Jeff and Shane
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kmv3WlKa6U8
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p1uQ3SQEPko


Man I have not laughed that hard in a very long time holy cow that caught me off guard! Dude I am dying here!


----------



## Jim Nash

Bob Scott said:


> I've only had one dog in my life that I would categorize like this dog and Bingo. 65lb mutt that hated most folks, most dogs and life in general. Not sure looking back if the dog was truely handler aggressive (doubtful now) or just nucking futs and saw me as more of a daily challenge then an owner.
> I was young enough, fast enough and dumb enough to enjoy the challenge.
> I still look back at the dog now and wonder what I could have done with him had I used my brains insted of brawn.
> With a bit of expierience and nads it's not that hard to physically "control" a dog like this but It seems to be a constant battle. WHY???
> I'm old now. I want to use what's left of my brains! :wink:



I wish that was the case with Bingo . I had more time then usual to work with him since my first partner died suddenly and he was a replacement I got the ok to work on the basics slowly over the winter and then start to put the big work in during the spring when I was scheduled to help train the new 12 week Patrol Dog class . 

I intitially had reservations about Bingo because I saw half of his handler aggression issue as being insecurity focussed on handler corrections . I thought it might be a confidence issue that branched out to manwork . But that was not the case . He was very strong and confident in manwork it was just the handler he had issues with and sometimes it was insecurity and other times it was just because he was an insubordinate asshole and I always had to be good at figuring out which was which . He just solved alot of things with aggression . For example , he once jumped thru a swing and caught his foot . He quickly got loose and attack the thing bigtime , Very early on with him he also stepped on a sticker bush while I had him off leash emptying him . He hackled up and came over to me growling looking for a fight . I just didn't change my behavior and in a normal calm voice told him to heel which he did . We then did some ob and he stayed calm like nothing happened . I tried everything to bond with him from hand feeding , tons of mellow fun time , walks , messages , you name it nothing worked to gain his trust . 

To this day at 11 and retired he still has issues with me . He's good with my kids , brother and sister and strangers but none of them have ever been put into a position to tell him what to do or take something from him like a toy our food .

This is cocky but once I figured him out I was very good at being patient and teaching him new behaviors without conflict . It was further down the line when it came to proofing that it got ugly . He was just VERY quick to aggress when he felt threatened by the handler(sometimes didn't take much or simply didn't want to do something and knew a correction was coming . 

I don't think it was possible for anyone to train him to a high level and keep him from being handler aggressive at times . Believe me I tried .


----------



## jeff gamber

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> So for Jeff and Jim, how do you protect yourself. Are you just quick enough and strong enough to keep the dog from connecting or donning some sort of protective gear in case they connect so you can see it through?
> 
> 
> Terrasita


Terrasita

Nope, zero protective gear. Just an e-collar as hopefully an emergency brake, and have enough of a bond with the dog to have him come to just let out frustration, not really want to put me in the hospital. Its always a gamble, but believe me if Carlos decides to bring it, it would be very hard to disuade him...


----------



## jeff gamber

@ Jim 

Now that sounds like a dog that chris jones II was referring to!!

My hat is off to you for handling and simply put to just co-exist with that character is impressive enough, but to actually work him is beyond commendation!!


----------



## Jim Nash

jeff gamber said:


> @ Jim
> 
> My hat is off to you for handling and simply put to just co-exist with that character is impressive enough, but to actually work him is beyond commendation!!


Thanks and kudos to you for the work you're putting in on your dog .

I know it may sound to some folks like alot of extra work to put in on a dog but if I hadn't seen the potential in him I never would have tried to work with him . He lived up to my beliefs and did a very good job on the streets .

Good luck with your dog .


----------



## jeff gamber

Thanks Jim and thanks for the nudge to post my thoughts...


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Great thread and learning material from Jim/Jeff on getting into the dog's head and past certain issues!!! 

Terrasita


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## Sandra King

I used (used because he is no longer hard to handle) to have a hard to handle dog out of my parents breeding but not the way you think he'd be. He was abused over a long period of time and as far as I know from the research I did, a couple of dogs died in this mans care. My parents took him back and he was nothing like he used to be, before. Before he left, he was a normal, life loving, dog. And one of the things I found out, was done to him, was that anytime he barked, somebody hit him with a shovel on his head. From research I know that two dogs died in his care. Sometimes you think you know somebody and it turns out you don't know them at all. 

Not everybody could have handled him, most certainly not a man. Not in the very beginning of his rehabilitation. He didn't even know what to do with a ball when I first got him. He wouldn't go near any person. 

Meanwhile, he's confident, plays like a god, is stable in pretty much any situation and so good that a certain person wanted him to be trained as a Cadaver Dog, despite his age and background. 

During the process I was told multiple times to get rid of him, to shoot him, that he ain't worth shit. 

He's a wonderful dog and he is now retired. I put no titles on him. He proofed himself numerous of times. He's almost seven years old now and my heart dog. I love that dog and I'd never give him away. He's made a remarkable recovery from "not handable" to the perfect companion and working dog. (he loves herding)


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## Harry Keely

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Great thread and learning material from Jim/Jeff on getting into the dog's head and past certain issues!!!
> 
> Terrasita


Thats most the battle most of the times Terrasita, the other part is of course knowing and learning the dogs body language to get the few seconds HOPELY heads up that its getting rady to go down, so you yourself have the split second to mentally prepare yourself and hopely get it to go down on your terms and not the dogs.


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## tracey schneider

Here is my question... do you guys think some of this was "created" or "exaggerated"? If you had these dogs from puppies do you think it would have been more than half the battle? Granted it takes a certain dog to get to that point, but if you know how to deal with a dog like that and have it from a puppy, different outcome? I know of dogs put down because handler aggression was taught to them. Like someone posted, not all dogs are going to back down or submit in the fight for glory, so the more this takes place they just learn to fight faster... in these dogs working on the brain is the right way to go....

t


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## FRANKIE COWEN

this is a very good thread, and jeff very good post, and im so glad its working out, and i thought it would becuase you use your eyes and brain with carlos .. the thing i see with the dogs people call " hard to handle" most of them are not that hard to handle if you use your brain, and respect the dog and teach him to trust and respect you' In my humble opinion the biggest mistake i see people make when they get a older dog who is labeled hard to handle, they dont read the dog well when they get them, the misinterpet any twitch as "oh shit he coming up the leash " they kinda react or get jumpy and the dog senses that energy and the handle gets tense and may react to something that wasnt even there at that moment, if your fair take your time and read the dog body language and try small steps then things usaully go ok. The ones who think that " im going to make this dog respect me and do what the hell i say Well they are probally going to push the limit to soon and not use any mutaul respect and bond, A strong dog will not take unfair or mistimed corrections, i have taking a few dogs over the years who yes were ill say not the easiest to handle but with bonding reading and taking things slow things worked out fine, AND AGAIN KUDOS TO YOU JEFF FOR USING YOUR BRAIN AND VISION when handling carlos till the team becomes one, 


frankie


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## Timothy Stacy

Christopher Jones said:


> I agree. Far too many times I have heard the terms, "Handler hard" and "Hander aggressive" thrown around and then when you see the dogs they are not. Its funny how you rarely see the term "Handler Soft" being used by people to describe their "Highly Trainable" dogs.


Would you give the following dog a despeiption of hard?

Some hunting labs can take a lot of handler pressure/abuse (abuse is not a good word but somewhat fitting) they get extremely pressured to do something, maybe begin tucking their tail and freezing up due to the pressure. The next day the handler takes them out to do the same exercise again and the dog shows little if any adverse effects from the previous day. To me this is a form of hardness that manifests itself in resilience(or stupidity). 

I have also seen what Most people considered much harder dogs performing in similar situations that will come out and immediately go into avoidance from yesterday's "bad" training situation. I still use the theory of I walked into a bar and punched a guy in the face and he ignored me and continued doing what he was doing, that's a pretty tough SOB. If I give a dog a decent correction and he comes after me, maybe it puts him in fight drive but it also makes me wonder how resilient the dog is along with his pain tolerance. Strong dogs/high fight driven dogs with low pain tolerance are recipes for disaster with most handlers.
I also believe that a high percentage of handler aggression is created. 
I'm writing out loud and not suggesting what I'm writing to be 100% true!


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## Sandra King

> In my humble opinion the biggest mistake i see people make when they get a older dog who is labeled hard to handle, they dont read the dog well when they get them, the misinterpet any twitch as "oh shit he coming up the leash " they kinda react or get jumpy and the dog senses that energy and the handle gets tense and may react to something that wasnt even there at that moment, if your fair take your time and read the dog body language and try small steps then things usaully go ok.


Absolutely agree with you, Frankie. It's all about perception and prejudices. It's why we used to handle dogs that adults wouldn't have dared to touch, let alone take a ball away. 

Body language plays a major role and most dogs, out on the street, who are dog or people aggressive are aggressive because the other end of the leash, makes them aggressive, not even realizing that THEY are the problem.


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## FRANKIE COWEN

tracy i think it mutli parts, yes if you have a hard to handle pup it still can be hard to handle, you just may now his triggers better, i had a dutchie many years ago, i trained his dad and his dad was one strong sob, well the pup as a pup aslo was a sob, the only thing i saw different then some of the ones i got a s adults was i new his triggers better, he wasnt created by training or envoirment to be that way i believe genticly he had it in him already , and lots of it came out of posseviness and dominance . it was just him


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## Dave Colborn

Matt Grosch said:


> but if "handler hard" just meant the dog doesnt listen or respond well, wouldnt everyone want a "handler sensitive" dog?
> 
> 
> 
> (maybe if they had a less tough sounding word for the negative quality and a less gay word for the good one)



Matt. I don't think a large number of folks really know what they want. I have had a prey monster that was a little reactive, handler sharp to me initially, over the top, and I don't want another one. No fun watching your back all the time. With him, I had to be careful there wasn't a basket ball being bounced on a court, or I would get eaten up or at least in a fight if we were too close. Towards the end, that went away through training and control. It was definitely a training issue, but that didn't matter either. I had to work him where I couldn't control the environment, and keeping folks certified and working was the order of the day. 

The other thing to consider is peoples opinion of what they have. Goes back to the fish pond. If you don't get out of the fish pond and see some over the top dogs, the mediocre ones are your over the top. So my over the top, may be weak to you. It depends on your experience. I want a handler soft dog. Handler weak, handler sensitive. Whatever you call it, that makes him easy to work and helps us attain our goals.


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## jeff gamber

FRANKIE COWEN said:


> this is a very good thread, and jeff very good post, and im so glad its working out, and i thought it would becuase you use your eyes and brain with carlos .. the thing i see with the dogs people call " hard to handle" most of them are not that hard to handle if you use your brain, and respect the dog and teach him to trust and respect you' In my humble opinion the biggest mistake i see people make when they get a older dog who is labeled hard to handle, they dont read the dog well when they get them, the misinterpet any twitch as "oh shit he coming up the leash " they kinda react or get jumpy and the dog senses that energy and the handle gets tense and may react to something that wasnt even there at that moment, if your fair take your time and read the dog body language and try small steps then things usaully go ok. The ones who think that " im going to make this dog respect me and do what the hell i say Well they are probally going to push the limit to soon and not use any mutaul respect and bond, A strong dog will not take unfair or mistimed corrections, i have taking a few dogs over the years who yes were ill say not the easiest to handle but with bonding reading and taking things slow things worked out fine, AND AGAIN KUDOS TO YOU JEFF FOR USING YOUR BRAIN AND VISION when handling carlos till the team becomes one,
> 
> 
> frankie


Frankie, couldn't agree with you more. Carlos the first day I took him out without the muzzle was very mouthy, still is actually. He will take my arm and place it in the back of his jaw, no pressure, just affection. I read it as that and just give him a voice correction and he will get down on all four again. I didn't overeact, jump, or sharply correct (if so, I would be as nervy as all the dogs we hate lol). It could lead to problems if excitement or frustration grew, but I don't read it as that and my reaction does not push him into a negative direction...


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## Matt Grosch

Bob Scott said:


> I like this post!
> I've said it a million times, "Why pick a fight with a dog that loves to fight"!
> Maybe not a dog I'm going to toss cookies at all day but what your talking about is a ton better then going at it with both looking for a fight.
> Establish a bond, friendship even, rather then start with a "I'll show you who's boss" attitude!
> You mentioned in another post about sitting around and doing a bit of bribing with the dog.
> Your a treat trainer Dude! :grin: :wink:




see, I knew it was the same, just like "why pick a fight with a woman that loves to fight?"



(and any female that takes this the wrong way and fires up will receive a correction!)


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## Matt Grosch

and I could be wrong but Id be inclined to believe that dog trainers have better behaved children


all basically ties together in being a good leader


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## Sandra King

Matt Grosch said:


> and I could be wrong but Id be inclined to believe that dog trainers have better behaved children
> 
> 
> all basically ties together in being a good leader


Absolutely, not only that, dog people deal differently with kids, overall. If they scratch their knee, dog people usually don't baby their kids, they pick them up, give'em a pad on their back and send them back out with the words: Indian people don't know any pain! (at least that's a saying in Germany that a lot of people like to use to encourage kids not to be so whiny.)


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## Matt Grosch

which kind of indian?


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## Sandra King

Matt Grosch said:


> which kind of indian?


Native Americans. The phrase is: _Ein Indianer kennt keinen Schmerz_ which literally translates into "A native American doesn't know pain." 
It's not meant to be racist. We have a weird fascination with Native American Indians and Cowboys. Don't know if you ever heard about Winnetou and Old Shatterhand? :mrgreen:


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## Shane Woodlief

Sandra King said:


> Absolutely, not only that, dog people deal differently with kids, overall. If they scratch their knee, dog people usually don't baby their kids, they pick them up, give'em a pad on their back and send them back out with the words: Indian people don't know any pain! (at least that's a saying in Germany that a lot of people like to use to encourage kids not to be so whiny.)





Sandra King said:


> Native Americans. The phrase is: _Ein Indianer kennt keinen Schmerz_ which literally translates into "A native American doesn't know pain."
> It's not meant to be racist. We have a weird fascination with Native American Indians and Cowboys. Don't know if you ever heard about Winnetou and Old Shatterhand? :mrgreen:


Generalizations of entire people groups ](*,)


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## Robin Van Hecke

Sandra King said:


> Native Americans. The phrase is: _Ein Indianer kennt keinen Schmerz_ which literally translates into "A native American doesn't know pain."
> It's not meant to be racist. We have a weird fascination with Native American Indians and Cowboys. Don't know if you ever heard about Winnetou and Old Shatterhand? :mrgreen:


Sandra, I know what you're talking about. In 1967 I came to Canada after my first 14 years in Belgium and exactly what I imagined native Americans would be.
Winnetou and Old Shatterhand were my heroes.....


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## Tammy St. Louis

>>>. The muzzle was a two man operation the first 10 days.>>>

can you explain how you would get the muzzle on a really aggresive dog? without getting bit, 
I work with aggressive dogs and i usually get the owner to put it on the dog, if the dog is really serious, 
what do you do with the 2 people, this is a serious question, i am not being sarcastic..


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## jeff gamber

Tammy St. Louis said:


> >>>. The muzzle was a two man operation the first 10 days.>>>
> 
> can you explain how you would get the muzzle on a really aggresive dog? without getting bit,
> I work with aggressive dogs and i usually get the owner to put it on the dog, if the dog is really serious,
> what do you do with the 2 people, this is a serious question, i am not being sarcastic..


Tammy:

I didn't take it as sarcastic, I'm not sure if I eluded to Carlos always being aggressive, because he is not. He just has moments and flashes of it. The second person was just a safety precaution if he decided to break his sit/still command and/or showed aggression...


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## Tammy St. Louis

ok , i understand what was said about the muzzle training, treating in the muzzle and so on, but just on a dog you dont know that would be aggressive how would you get a muzzle on, 
but i understand now, that he had things that would trigger his aggression, not just aggressive all the time ,


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## Jim Nash

I can't guarantee you won't get bit putting on a muzzle but for me preparing my dog to wear an agitation muzzle I started off by feeding him dailey with it so he got use to putting his head in it . After that I would hold onto the muzzle and stick some threats though the bottom end and do that a few times a day so he got use to putting his head in it while I held on to it. After about a week of that I did the same thing but then committed to securing the muzzle on him . Once on I calmly praised him and fed him some more when he was acting calm in it . I used those long Slim Jim looking dog treats because they were thin and long enough to get through the holes and reach the dogs mouth . After he got use to the muzzle I just phased out luring him into it and simply put it on . The most important thing once you descide to put it on is to commit to putting it on quickly with no joisting around with the dog . If you get into joisting with the dog you've lost half the battle because if you can't get it on before he aggresses your chances of success decrease greatly . If he does and you back off he won and it will be even tougher the next time . Once again the biggest thing is COMMITING to putting it on , no halfassed attempts and have all the straps in the proper place before attenpting it. Get it on quickly with little fighting .


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## jeff gamber

Jim Nash said:


> I can't guarantee you won't get bit putting on a muzzle but for me preparing my dog to wear an agitation muzzle I started off by feeding him dailey with it so he got use to putting his head in it . After that I would hold onto the muzzle and stick some threats though the bottom end and do that a few times a day so he got use to putting his head in it while I held on to it. After about a week of that I did the same thing but then committed to securing the muzzle on him . Once on I calmly praised him and fed him some more when he was acting calm in it . I used those long Slim Jim looking dog treats because they were thin and long enough to get through the holes and reach the dogs mouth . After he got use to the muzzle I just phased out luring him into it and simply put it on . The most important thing once you descide to put it on is to commit to putting it on quickly with no joisting around with the dog . If you get into joisting with the dog you've lost half the battle because if you can't get it on before he aggresses your chances of success decrease greatly . If he does and you back off he won and it will be even tougher the next time . Once again the biggest thing is COMMITING to putting it on , no halfassed attempts and have all the straps in the proper place before attenpting it. Get it on quickly with little fighting .


LOL Jim, I won't say great minds think alike because I may insult you by coupling you with my brain...

But...

The snack in question for easy muzzle bribing is Pup-a-roni LOL


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## Jim Nash

jeff gamber said:


> LOL Jim, I won't say great minds think alike because I may insult you by coupling you with my brain...
> 
> But...
> 
> The snack in question for easy muzzle bribing is Pup-a-roni LOL


That's it ! Thanks . They don't taste too bad either .


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## Jim Nash

I'll add one more thing . I've put muzzles on quite a few strange dogs and the vast majority of times I just stuffed that thing on them quickly . Like I said before commitment is the biggest thing if you hesitate you're screwed .


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## Bob Scott

Timothy Stacy said:


> Would you give the following dog a despeiption of hard?
> 
> Some hunting labs can take a lot of handler pressure/abuse (abuse is not a good word but somewhat fitting) they get extremely pressured to do something, maybe begin tucking their tail and freezing up due to the pressure. The next day the handler takes them out to do the same exercise again and the dog shows little if any adverse effects from the previous day. To me this is a form of hardness that manifests itself in resilience(or stupidity).
> 
> I have also seen what Most people considered much harder dogs performing in similar situations that will come out and immediately go into avoidance from yesterday's "bad" training situation. I still use the theory of I walked into a bar and punched a guy in the face and he ignored me and continued doing what he was doing, that's a pretty tough SOB. If I give a dog a decent correction and he comes after me, maybe it puts him in fight drive but it also makes me wonder how resilient the dog is along with his pain tolerance. Strong dogs/high fight driven dogs with low pain tolerance are recipes for disaster with most handlers.
> I also believe that a high percentage of handler aggression is created.
> I'm writing out loud and not suggesting what I'm writing to be 100% true!




I think Labs, as a breed, can be very forgiving. Also they have a very high pain threshold. Think about it. They break ice to jump into freezing water time after time just like it's a sauna.


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga

Jim Nash said:


> I can't guarantee you won't get bit putting on a muzzle but for me preparing my dog to wear an agitation muzzle I started off by feeding him dailey with it so he got use to putting his head in it . After that I would hold onto the muzzle and stick some threats though the bottom end and do that a few times a day so he got use to putting his head in it while I held on to it. After about a week of that I did the same thing but then committed to securing the muzzle on him . Once on I calmly praised him and fed him some more when he was acting calm in it . I used those long Slim Jim looking dog treats because they were thin and long enough to get through the holes and reach the dogs mouth . After he got use to the muzzle I just phased out luring him into it and simply put it on . The most important thing once you descide to put it on is to commit to putting it on quickly with no joisting around with the dog . If you get into joisting with the dog you've lost half the battle because if you can't get it on before he aggresses your chances of success decrease greatly . If he does and you back off he won and it will be even tougher the next time . Once again the biggest thing is COMMITING to putting it on , no halfassed attempts and have all the straps in the proper place before attenpting it. Get it on quickly with little fighting .


Jim,
Thanks for this. Just one question....i heard its good to have the dog wear the muzzle for obedience work and other 'non-protection' activities, have you tried this and does it ensure the dog doesn't assume having the muzzle on means aggression work?


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## rick smith

Tammy, i have worked with many aggressive dogs that have bitten many people, including their owners, and for obvious reasons i would like to muzzle them right from the get go when i work with them, but now i don't.

it would be a rare situation that i would muzzle a dog that is ready willing and able to bite. there are other ways to deal with that

i used to do it that way in the past; just slipped the muzzle on fast. the results were the same. it always just pissed off the dog that much more and made them spin around that much longer. the next time they were more ready for it and it was that much harder for me  after a lot of those reactions most submitted, but now i just don't see a need for doing it that way
...plus, i happen to like jafcos, and it's hard for me to get em buckled fast.

with that said, i still use muzzles a LOT, but only after i have conditioned a dog to willingly slip their own muzzle into it and not shake it off....doesn't take too long that way, and from that point on, they are completely non reactive to it being on and i can take em out in public safely. i also open up some of the end holes which makes it much easier to feed thru and still keep them from using canines 

i use em on about 75% of the dogs i work. for me, muzzles have been a great deterrent to keep people away from me and the dog, and i think they also help reduce conflicts the dog has when out in public, for the same reason


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## tracey schneider

Timothy Stacy said:


> I have also seen what Most people considered much harder dogs performing in similar situations that will come out and immediately go into avoidance from yesterday's "bad" training situation. I still use the theory of I walked into a bar and punched a guy in the face and he ignored me and continued doing what he was doing, that's a pretty tough SOB. If I give a dog a decent correction and he comes after me, maybe it puts him in fight drive but it also makes me wonder how resilient the dog is along with his pain tolerance. Strong dogs/high fight driven dogs with low pain tolerance are recipes for disaster with most handlers.
> I also believe that a high percentage of handler aggression is created.
> I'm writing out loud and not suggesting what I'm writing to be 100% true!


agree with much of this.....


----------



## tracey schneider

FRANKIE COWEN said:


> tracy i think it mutli parts, yes if you have a hard to handle pup it still can be hard to handle, you just may now his triggers better, i had a dutchie many years ago, i trained his dad and his dad was one strong sob, well the pup as a pup aslo was a sob, the only thing i saw different then some of the ones i got a s adults was i new his triggers better, he wasnt created by training or envoirment to be that way i believe genticly he had it in him already , and lots of it came out of posseviness and dominance . it was just him


I agree and understand what you are saying, which leads me to think you misunderstood my point some… probably my fault in not explaining well ;-)


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## Timothy Stacy

I can make two comparisons on dogs with similar genetics as well. When Vitor was a puppy I accidentally stepped on his paw on multiple occasions and he acted like nothing happened. I even wrote that on here.

His half brother who is 75% same genetically tried to go after the owner hard for stepping on his paw. This dog is higher prey driven than Vitor at the same age. I believe the dogs can have a equal fight drive but one has less pain tolerance.

For some reason people think when a dog comes up the line he is really tough. Quite the fallacy if you ask me. 
I always laugh in general when people say, "that dog doesn't take no shit" after it goes after the handler for relatively small shit. Or is it "the dog can't deal with the pain as well" as another dog?

@Bob S. , I agree that some labs have high pain tolerance and are very resilient. Do you know of any good hunting labs that are handler aggressive? Not a whole lot of aggression to tap into on labs I'm guessing!


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## Jim Nash

Oluwatobi Odunuga said:


> Jim,
> Thanks for this. Just one question....i heard its good to have the dog wear the muzzle for obedience work and other 'non-protection' activities, have you tried this and does it ensure the dog doesn't assume having the muzzle on means aggression work?


I think its very important that the dog doesn't know why the muzzle is on. I start of just letting dogs wear it from time to time , then I move into OB , search work and then into muzzle fighting . I mix it up with the dog all the time . The more things you can do with the dog the better so he's not cued there's going to be a muzzle fight. I put it on at home doing nothing too just so the dog isn't getting amped to do things once its put on . They can wear it for a longtime and learn to drink with it on. Another thing is not to only put the muzzle on tight for muzzle fighting they will cue off of that too .


----------



## kristin tresidder

jeff gamber said:


> Carlos... will take my arm and place it in the back of his jaw, no pressure, just affection.


funny, his nephew lo will do the same thing. there are times he'd stand there for 5 minutes (which for lo is a verrrry verrrrrry long time to stand still) like that if i let him. he never does it when he's amped up about something, just when he wants some 'me' time. he's the only one i have that does that, and i'm the only one he ever does it to.


----------



## Timothy Stacy

kristin tresidder said:


> funny, his nephew lo will do the same thing. there are times he'd stand there for 5 minutes (which for lo is a verrrry verrrrrry long time to stand still) like that if i let him. he never does it when he's amped up about something, just when he wants some 'me' time. he's the only one i have that does that, and i'm the only one he ever does it to.


Vitor does the same as well!


----------



## Selena van Leeuwen

Timothy Stacy said:


> Vitor does the same as well!


My Rocky also did when he was at ease and was showing his affection.
****,e even as a pup, fell asleep holding my arm in his mouth with a full "bite"......

Dick


----------



## Jim Nash

Timothy Stacy said:


> I can make two comparisons on dogs with similar genetics as well. When Vitor was a puppy I accidentally stepped on his paw on multiple occasions and he acted like nothing happened. I even wrote that on here.
> 
> His half brother who is 75% same genetically tried to go after the owner hard for stepping on his paw. This dog is higher prey driven than Vitor at the same age. I believe the dogs can have a equal fight drive but one has less pain tolerance.
> 
> For some reason people think when a dog comes up the line he is really tough. Quite the fallacy if you ask me.
> I always laugh in general when people say, "that dog doesn't take no shit" after it goes after the handler for relatively small shit. Or is it "the dog can't deal with the pain as well" as another dog?
> 
> @Bob S. , I agree that some labs have high pain tolerance and are very resilient. Do you know of any good hunting labs that are handler aggressive? Not a whole lot of aggression to tap into on labs I'm guessing!


I agree . With Bingo many times that was the case . He would recieve or think he was going to recieve a punishment and go off . Other handlers would see that and comment about him being a tough , nasty dog and I'd reply, not at all he was just being a wuss . But it also tied into his other reasons for being handler aggressive in that the dog simply handled many problems he percieved through aggression and resorted to it quickly . 

IMO it's important to remember that dogs can become handler aggressive for different reasons , sometimes it's the "unfair correction" , pain , other times it can be because they just don't choose to listen and will fight rather then doing it . 

But having trained many potential PSD candidates what I saw as the #1 reason for handler aggression was confusion . I usually saw it in the first or second week of class . 16 new usually inexperianced handlers all trying to learn proper handling . I saw alot of poorly timed corrections , poorly timed praise , nagging/ineffective corrections , horrible coordination(stepping , tripping over dogs) . Also the dog was new to this with a new handler , new surroundings , numerous other dogs , new dog sounds and smells which have the dog ampped up and has part of their attention . The usual cluster**** of new handlers new dogs . 

Most dogs tolerated this confusion and mistakes by their handlers without ever becoming handler aggressive . Then you could 1 or 2 that would go after the handler . Usually there was never a big correction or threat of one given just midpoint in some simple new expectation of them they would let the handler have it . 

For that reason I disagree that handler aggression is created unless I'm misinterpreting what you mean by created . I think with most dogs I've seen it's brought out in the dog but has been lurking there just under the surface all along for the handler to find . With the handler aggressive dogs I've seen I think I could have given them to any of the other handlers who weren't having aggression issues with their current dogs and most would just as easily brought out the handler aggression in that dog . It's what's done after you have spotted this problem that is important then . The handler or trainer can pick a route where they will battle that dog all the time by making the same mistakes and enhance the handler aggression or thay can identify what's bringing it out and pick a different more effective route in teaching the dog , but they must realize that that handler aggression issue is still there and waiting for another mistake to bring it out . 

I agree that handler agression isn't a sign of a tough dog . I do think it's a sign of a highly reactive dog but the reason for that reactivity can be varied .


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## Jim Nash

As to the Lab comparison , I worked hunting Labs before I became a K9 Handler . Labs to me just react to pain differently and at different times . They can be extremely tough and stubborn when they are out hunting but when you deal with them away from that and in a mellower state they can be completely different . Out in the field you can max out your ecollar with no effect while trying to call them off a flying bird they flushed and then back home you can just look them the wrong way and they will belly out . In a Lab I see this rolling over and giving up happening in similar situations a GSD or Mal would react with handler aggression . I just think the different breeds are predisposed to deal with it in a different way . 

My last Lab was named Tank for a reason . As a pup and into adulthood he chose to run through things rather then around . I've seen him run into trees , fences and hunters full speed and never show pain . Sometimes he would stumble around from having his bell rung but as soon as he got his sences back he was back to work . He needed very high levels of ecollar stimualtion early on in training but figured things out later on . This same dog usually only needed a strong verbal or slight physical correction at home . 

Most Labs I've seen are tough at work and soft when not in relationship to the handler .


----------



## Matt Grosch

Jim Nash said:


> I think its very important that the dog doesn't know why the muzzle is on. I start of just letting dogs wear it from time to time , then I move into OB , search work and then into muzzle fighting . I mix it up with the dog all the time . The more things you can do with the dog the better so he's not cued there's going to be a muzzle fight. I put it on at home doing nothing too just so the dog isn't getting amped to do things once its put on . They can wear it for a longtime and learn to drink with it on. Another thing is not to only put the muzzle on tight for muzzle fighting they will cue off of that too .




seems like that would be the way to introduce everything


long before I ever corrected mine with the E collar, I put it on him everytime we went for a walk, bike ride, played catch, etc.....so he always gets happy when I take it out


wouldnt the muzzle (which I havent used) be the same?


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Dave Colborn said:


> Matt. I don't think a large number of folks really know what they want. I have had a prey monster that was a little reactive, handler sharp to me initially, over the top, and I don't want another one. No fun watching your back all the time. With him, I had to be careful there wasn't a basket ball being bounced on a court, or I would get eaten up or at least in a fight if we were too close. Towards the end, that went away through training and control. It was definitely a training issue, but that didn't matter either. I had to work him where I couldn't control the environment, and keeping folks certified and working was the order of the day.
> 
> The other thing to consider is peoples opinion of what they have. Goes back to the fish pond. If you don't get out of the fish pond and see some over the top dogs, the mediocre ones are your over the top. So my over the top, may be weak to you. It depends on your experience. I want a handler soft dog. Handler weak, handler sensitive. Whatever you call it, that makes him easy to work and helps us attain our goals.


So Dave, did he become so loaded in prey, he would bite you out of frustration or bite because you were restraining him from the prey. I ask because when my bouv was younger I tried restraining her on some pretty flighty livestock on a long line. She looked like a snapping turtle at the end of the line and turned and bit the line. I remember appreciating the fact that she was clear enough that she didn't nail me. She matured out of this. Meanwhile I made a point of not letting her get restraint frustrated and controlled what type of stock she worked so as not to trigger her. It was at its worst I'd say 1.5--4 years.

T


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## Jim Nash

Matt Grosch said:


> seems like that would be the way to introduce everything
> 
> 
> long before I ever corrected mine with the E collar, I put it on him everytime we went for a walk, bike ride, played catch, etc.....so he always gets happy when I take it out
> 
> 
> wouldnt the muzzle (which I havent used) be the same?


It's the same as in trying to avoid equipment fixation . The equipment just serves a different purpose .


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## Nicole Stark

Timothy Stacy said:


> Vitor does the same as well!


I thought about replying to this earlier when Jeff mentioned that about Carlos but didn't think it all that worth mentioning at the time. But given the number of replies stating similar things off related dogs I thought I'd chime in and say my Carlos youngster does that too. Interesting to see how often this was mentioned in the same thread.


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## Bob Scott

Timothy Stacy said:


> I can make two comparisons on dogs with similar genetics as well. When Vitor was a puppy I accidentally stepped on his paw on multiple occasions and he acted like nothing happened. I even wrote that on here.
> 
> His half brother who is 75% same genetically tried to go after the owner hard for stepping on his paw. This dog is higher prey driven than Vitor at the same age. I believe the dogs can have a equal fight drive but one has less pain tolerance.
> 
> For some reason people think when a dog comes up the line he is really tough. Quite the fallacy if you ask me.
> I always laugh in general when people say, "that dog doesn't take no shit" after it goes after the handler for relatively small shit. Or is it "the dog can't deal with the pain as well" as another dog?
> 
> @Bob S. , I agree that some labs have high pain tolerance and are very resilient. Do you know of any good hunting labs that are handler aggressive? Not a whole lot of aggression to tap into on labs I'm guessing!


Unfortunately I've seen a fair number of "pet" labs that have aggression issues. I've not looked at any of them enough to determine what it was about. 
I don't think the hunters would put up with it. 
Some yrs back there was a big black lab that was raising hell when it got out. Even knocked a lady down when she was putting out her trash. 
We lived 6 houses from a school at the time and I called animal control. I told the gal I was going to shoot the dog if I saw it loose again. She told me it was illegal to discharge a firearm in that particular area of the county. I asked her about using a bow and arrow.  She couldn't answer it so she left! 
The owner got rid of the dog after I called him at 3 in the am about getting in my trash.


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## rick smith

about 15 years years ago goldens became the rage over here in Japan. being a small but dense population you can really see the problems develop much quicker when a breed becomes the flavor of the month. there are still a few that show up but not like before.....MANY aggression issues thru frustration
- i spoke personally (long distance phone calls, not emails) to "reputable" breeders of WORKING goldens stateside that sold breed stock here that never followed up and refused to believe what was happening and went into denial
- siberian huskies went the same route; everyone had to have one ... and over here they all had to have spectacles and at least one blue eye :-( ... terrible problems health wise as well as behavior issues
- it doesn't take long to ruin a working breed when you stop breeding for working, or let amateurs play frankenstein with your line

OT comment ...they're hard to handle too


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## tracey schneider

Bob Scott said:


> The owner got rid of the dog after I called him at 3 in the am about getting in my trash.



Seems to be the easy fix for some... just get rid of the dog :roll:


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## Chris Jones II

Jim Nash said:


> For that reason I disagree that handler aggression is created unless I'm misinterpreting what you mean by created . I think with most dogs I've seen it's brought out in the dog but has been lurking there just under the surface all along for the handler to find . With the handler aggressive dogs I've seen I think I could have given them to any of the other handlers who weren't having aggression issues with their current dogs and most would just as easily brought out the handler aggression in that dog . It's what's done after you have spotted this problem that is important then . The handler or trainer can pick a route where they will battle that dog all the time by making the same mistakes and enhance the handler aggression or thay can identify what's bringing it out and pick a different more effective route in teaching the dog , but they must realize that that handler aggression issue is still there and waiting for another mistake to bring it out .
> 
> I agree that handler agression isn't a sign of a tough dog . I do think it's a sign of a highly reactive dog but the reason for that reactivity can be varied .


Thanks Jim. This is exactly the point I have been trying to make in other genetics threads since I saw my first nutjob Malinois. You can see it if you watch the dog closely enough and know what you're looking at. There is a point in some of these dogs that handler stupidity is not an issue. When "mistakes" are really just things that 99.99999% of dogs, especially working dogs deal with on a daily basis, (like the example Tim gave of stepping on a dog's foot,) and the dog goes off the deep and tries to eviscerate you or pisses himself the dog is no better than a dead weight as far as work is concerned. It should be replaced, no questions asked. It's nobody's fault, just a werid dog.


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## Jim Nash

Chris Jones II said:


> Thanks Jim. This is exactly the point I have been trying to make in other genetics threads since I saw my first nutjob Malinois. You can see it if you watch the dog closely enough and know what you're looking at. There is a point in some of these dogs that handler stupidity is not an issue. When "mistakes" are really just things that 99.99999% of dogs, especially working dogs deal with on a daily basis, (like the example Tim gave of stepping on a dog's foot,) and the dog goes off the deep and tries to eviscerate you or pisses himself the dog is no better than a dead weight as far as work is concerned. It should be replaced, no questions asked. It's nobody's fault, just a werid dog.


My weird dog worked great for me he kept my fellow officers safe , found many suspects , evidence and drugs that lead to many people going to jail .


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## Timothy Stacy

@Chris, I'm not suggesting that dog that got it's foot stepped on is bad, in fact I think he is one of the nicest pups I've seen. He's just wired differently and not as forgiving for a new handler. Giving that dog back would be a breeders dream. Every dog has it's faults but you have to deal with them, not give up and send them back to the breeder for every little fault you can find. 

That dogs positives far out weigh that behavior which will probably dilute itself if dealt with calmly by the handler!


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## Sandra King

I'd love to get some suggestions. My Foster Chris has some moments where it's kind of hard to handle him and I am not sure what exactly triggers it. One time he's okay when you reach for his collar, the next time he's actually leaping forward biting you into the arm. How would you handle that kind of reaction. You can pet him anywhere around the neck, head, anywhere. But as soon as you try to reach his collar to put a leash on it or to lead him into the crate he might actually attack you an the way he is right now, he'd be way too much for the average dog owner and the people I rescued him with, said that they don't need a dog that is a liability and since he bit me numerous times he's got a biting history which makes it hard to place him. 

I wouldn't call him a bad dog or anywhere near hard to handle. He's got some issues an in these brief moments he is hard to handle but overall he's not anywhere as hard as some of the dogs you described in here. However, I'd love to get some suggestions of how you'd solve that issue. And to put a muzzle on him doesn't solve the problem. 

Usually I pet him around the head first, he seems to be more willing to let me grab it when I do that first but he's always on the "watch" and it almost seems like it's a fear issue.


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## David Ruby

Jim Nash said:


> My weird dog worked great for me he kept my fellow officers safe , found many suspects , evidence and drugs that lead to many people going to jail .





Timothy Stacy said:


> @Chris, I'm not suggesting that dog that got it's foot stepped on is bad, in fact I think he is one of the nicest pups I've seen. He's just wired differently and not as forgiving for a new handler. Giving that dog back would be a breeders dream. Every dog has it's faults but you have to deal with them, not give up and send them back to the breeder for every little fault you can find.
> 
> That dogs positives far out weigh that behavior which will probably dilute itself if dealt with calmly by the handler!


Nice posts. First, it is nice to see/read about people learning to work with their dogs' quirks. Second, the idea that a good, calm handler can "dilute" a dog's behavior kind of rings of the truth. I would like to believe that unless a screw is seriously loose, dogs (or, well, anything) do things for a reason and a good handler who knows what they are doing can read the dog and adjust. Not that I am said awesome handler that can read dogs and intuitively know how to work them and adjust to things based on what the dog is doing, but I have seen people do that and it makes sense how for one handler it is too much, based on their experience or ability to act/react appropriately to what the dog is throwing out there, yet a good trainer does not flinch, just does that is necessary and goes on with things.

At the very least, it was interesting to hear those responses.

-Cheers


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## jeff gamber

Sandra King said:


> I'd love to get some suggestions. My Foster Chris has some moments where it's kind of hard to handle him and I am not sure what exactly triggers it. One time he's okay when you reach for his collar, the next time he's actually leaping forward biting you into the arm. How would you handle that kind of reaction. You can pet him anywhere around the neck, head, anywhere. But as soon as you try to reach his collar to put a leash on it or to lead him into the crate he might actually attack you an the way he is right now, he'd be way too much for the average dog owner and the people I rescued him with, said that they don't need a dog that is a liability and since he bit me numerous times he's got a biting history which makes it hard to place him.
> 
> I wouldn't call him a bad dog or anywhere near hard to handle. He's got some issues an in these brief moments he is hard to handle but overall he's not anywhere as hard as some of the dogs you described in here. However, I'd love to get some suggestions of how you'd solve that issue. And to put a muzzle on him doesn't solve the problem.
> 
> Usually I pet him around the head first, he seems to be more willing to let me grab it when I do that first but he's always on the "watch" and it almost seems like it's a fear issue.


Sandra, have you tried removing the conflict? If he is a fearful dog (maybe due to bad previous experience) or has trust issues (same as before) just a leave a 2' or 4' lead on him without a handle/loop and remove the conflict until you can work out these issues.

As far as the crate, try food, try OB if he has it in him, walk him up if he looks angry, give him a command, walk away and repeat until he wants to go in (under control and command). Really need more info on the dog to give a possible solution to that one...


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Sandra,

I'm assuming this isn't the husky? I can't remember grabbing a rescue by the collar and doing any over the head stuff for a long time. Like Jeff suggested, the first thing I do before they get to comfy [then you may see the challenges or refusals] is put a tab line on them and maybe even go from a collar to a harness. Second, I feed them in the crate and teach them to crate on command with food. Third, I take them outside on a long line. There is no grabbing because they don't run loose. While they are on that long line, I'm working basic obedience stuff or food including recalls and crate. I might toss the food in and say crate but not close the door lots of times. That way they don't always think they are going to be confined just that great things happen in there. For the body touch stuff, if I sense there is a problem, I only touch them when I give some high value food at the same time. No one likes Milan but that take a dog for a walk to assist with bonding and try major exercise before you do things has some value. For instance, I still clip the rescue BC's nails, after I've worked him on livestock. I coudln't connect with him mentally until I put him on stock and he's still most connected when I have him on stock. You allow the loose independence wayyyy before I do. I want the foundation training, bond to me, etc. before I allow them loose time and I don't believe in the doggie play thing and allowing them to pack up with dogs so that's a whole other story. One of the reasons I don't do rescue anymore is the time I put in to truly rehab the dog to place them in the right home so its permanent. 


T


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## Peter Cavallaro

hi all reading the posts here on handler aggression, and "dogs coming up the leash" first came across this term back on the LB - personally i think its a tough sounding phrase that people just like to say - as far as the dog is concerned i hardly think it has anything to do with a tough dog.

IMO it has more to do wtih a dog finding itself in the middle of a huge sh!t sandwich, at one end its got a credible threat (in its mind) of facing injury or death, at the other end it has some idiot bringing it pain and telling it to lay on its belly in the middle of a fight - WTF is any animal supposed to do - can't deal with the threat in front can't stop the pain from the rear - so all it wants to do is get the F out of there and the weakest link is the idiot at the end of the leash. so take that smaller problem out first and maybe survive the encounter. has nothing to do with toughness, its straight survival logic based on fear. 

any mammal would give the same response. why is that such a mystery for so many???


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## Melissa Thom

Peter Cavallaro said:


> hi all reading the posts here on handler aggression, and "dogs coming up the leash" first came across this term back on the LB - personally i think its a tough sounding phrase that people just like to say - as far as the dog is concerned i hardly think it has anything to do with a tough dog.


Peter have you ever actually seen a dog willing to come up the leash at a handler? To be honest I've only seen a couple that qualify in that distinction and neither had anything to do major pressure being supplied on behalf of the handler. In both cases IME it had to do with frustration either of denial or lack of direction being redirected to the handler via teeth and little to do fear or survival. 

I don't know how these particular two dogs arrived at the place where they were relieving their frustrations on their handlers. I can't say for me it would matter because I would not live with a dog like this.


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## Doug Zaga

Peter Cavallaro said:


> IMO it has more to do wtih a dog finding itself in the middle of a huge sh!t sandwich, at one end its got a credible threat (in its mind) of facing injury or death, at the other end it has some idiot bringing it pain and telling it to lay on its belly in the middle of a fight - WTF is any animal supposed to do - can't deal with the threat in front can't stop the pain from the rear - so all it wants to do is get the F out of there and the weakest link is the idiot at the end of the leash. so take that smaller problem out first and maybe survive the encounter. has nothing to do with toughness, its straight survival logic based on fear.
> 
> any mammal would give the same response. why is that such a mystery for so many???


 

@ 45 seconds.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qfi5FVs63Jo


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## Sandra King

Actually, It is the Husky. I do have a harness on him to avoid the conflict but if he is being placed he needs to be rock solid. To be honest it'll be the last time I fostered. Too much time is going into these dogs that could go into mine. I also feed him in the crate and he's much more comfortable in the crate now. (the longest three weeks I've ever had). He's outside in the backyard off leash though. 

I've received some nice messages with some very good training suggestions. I will definitely put everything together and pick the best method that works for us. 

I tried it with the goodies in the crate, in the beginning he did not pick up on it though because he was waaay to frantic and too much of a vandal. Now that he calmed down I should pick back up on it. I have not attached a short lead yet. I will do that too in combination with the harness. 





Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Sandra,
> 
> I'm assuming this isn't the husky? I can't remember grabbing a rescue by the collar and doing any over the head stuff for a long time. Like Jeff suggested, the first thing I do before they get to comfy [then you may see the challenges or refusals] is put a tab line on them and maybe even go from a collar to a harness. Second, I feed them in the crate and teach them to crate on command with food. Third, I take them outside on a long line. There is no grabbing because they don't run loose. While they are on that long line, I'm working basic obedience stuff or food including recalls and crate. I might toss the food in and say crate but not close the door lots of times. That way they don't always think they are going to be confined just that great things happen in there. For the body touch stuff, if I sense there is a problem, I only touch them when I give some high value food at the same time. No one likes Milan but that take a dog for a walk to assist with bonding and try major exercise before you do things has some value. For instance, I still clip the rescue BC's nails, after I've worked him on livestock. I coudln't connect with him mentally until I put him on stock and he's still most connected when I have him on stock. You allow the loose independence wayyyy before I do. I want the foundation training, bond to me, etc. before I allow them loose time and I don't believe in the doggie play thing and allowing them to pack up with dogs so that's a whole other story. One of the reasons I don't do rescue anymore is the time I put in to truly rehab the dog to place them in the right home so its permanent.
> 
> 
> T


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## jeff gamber

@ Sandra

I know absolutely zero about Siberian huskies. So, let me ask this question:

Wouk placing a harness on the dog give him the sensation to pull and kick on an inherit part of his brain to "go to work" like a sled dog and be more difficult to control?

If true, maybe the short lead on a standard flat collar may be advantageous over the harness?

Just a question/thought


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## Peter Cavallaro

Doug Zaga said:


> @ 45 seconds.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qfi5FVs63Jo


 

ouch!!! - have seen that one before, but thanks. 

out of curiousity Doug do you think that that was exceptionaly good handling, idk just askin. 

IME if i had 4 dogs in a life & death stuggle with a feral brahman bull i would change my approach and handling strategies at that moment - not sayin its the same thing but?


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## Terrasita Cuffie

jeff gamber said:


> @ Sandra
> 
> I know absolutely zero about Siberian huskies. So, let me ask this question:
> 
> Wouk placing a harness on the dog give him the sensation to pull and kick on an inherit part of his brain to "go to work" like a sled dog and be more difficult to control?
> 
> If true, maybe the short lead on a standard flat collar may be advantageous over the harness?
> 
> Just a question/thought


 
Jeff,

I don't think so. Its a 1/2 step to give her a chance to work with the neck/head issue. Given the breed, the best thing she can do is quit with letting him run with dogs and independence running the yard. Go to nothing in life is free [NILIF] and everything desirable coming through her. Definitely get rid of ohhhh the poor thing needs some play/free time. For exercise, walks with her along with two ball or some retrieve or run after someting game if he is toy/object oriented. There's probably been too much of that before she got him. Some pet person is going to need to manage this dog and if you can give them a schedule/structure with dos and do nots, it has a better chance. Sandra described this dog a week ago as a good loveable high energy affectionate goof. Now we hear she has war wounds. Get rid of the poor baby mentality and think boot camp [doesn't mean correction based training] with learning leadership/subordinate pack stuff.

T


----------



## Dave Colborn

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> So Dave, did he become so loaded in prey, he would bite you out of frustration or bite because you were restraining him from the prey.
> 
> T


I don't know how to differentiate this. To me you are talking about the same thing.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Dave Colborn said:


> I don't know how to differentiate this. To me you are talking about the same thing.


Yeah, they do go together don't they. The other scenario is dog is loaded but not restrained by you but can't get to prey. They get so frustrated they bite something. Its funny how of the talked about behaviours are in my bouv in a milder form. You will see the prey frustration aggression but she won't bite me. She also holds my hand in her mouth. She's actually linebred on a Dutch bouv.

T


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## Sandra King

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Jeff,
> 
> I don't think so. Its a 1/2 step to give her a chance to work with the neck/head issue. Given the breed, the best thing she can do is quit with letting him run with dogs and independence running the yard. Go to nothing in life is free [NILIF] and everything desirable coming through her. Definitely get rid of ohhhh the poor thing needs some play/free time. For exercise, walks with her along with two ball or some retrieve or run after someting game if he is toy/object oriented. There's probably been too much of that before she got him. Some pet person is going to need to manage this dog and if you can give them a schedule/structure with dos and do nots, it has a better chance. Sandra described this dog a week ago as a good loveable high energy affectionate goof. now we hear she has war wounds. Get rid of the poor baby mentality and think boot camp [doesn't mean correction based training] with learning leadership/subordinate pack stuff.
> 
> T


Actually, I stated before that he's mouthy and that is when it gets tricky, his mouthyness can lead to him actually biting you. First he drops to the floor. Once you got him back up, he sits down and refuses to go with you. Then he goes up your arm with both his legs, trying to hold you. Then he starts beeing mouthy, trying to nibble and chew on your fingers, and then, if you are being consistent he actually shows teeth and snaps at you. Since the last time I posted it happened a couple of times. There is an underlying issue that didn't show in the beginning. 

However, we have made significant progress. He does no longer pee into the house, he accepts the crate now, there is no more fighting IN the crate. The leash walking has gotten much much better. Not perfect yet, but much better than before. His behaviour in the house... well...we are working on the housemanner part.

As you can see, it's bruising, some scratches and a small pinch. That was when he went at me after I broke him up from a fight and a day later he went after my arm again. Meanwhile I have the hang of it and once he drops, I can pretty much pedict what happens next. 
Don't know if I'd call it war wounds. It's really not that bad but the rescue says it's a liability...


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## rick smith

imo the only words i would use to describe that picture are : DOG BITE. 

for me a dog bite is ANYTIME a dog puts teeth on a human (or anything for that matter) ... anywhere on the body and it makes no difference if it's bare skin, on clothes or a shoelace, or breaks skin or bruises skin, or how much bite pressure is used....still a DOG BITE. 
rationalizing a dog bite any other way is the first step in denial and a bad road to start moving down. so no such thing as a "nip" to me either. which would also make a "mouthy" dog, a dog who chews when they bite 
- NOT judging you or saying how to deal with the different degrees of biting, but it's a lot easier for me that way, both for my own dogs and those who belong to someone else i'm working with  
- this definition makes a lot of training issues easier for me, and simplifies things with owners who always tend to downplay these issue for their dogs, and again, i'm not trying to give you a hard time .... ymmv 

btw, exactly how are you dealing with this issue ? (or do i need to go back and read what i missed ?)


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## Selena van Leeuwen

By your definition i have very regurarly ( sp) dogbites...i have frequently 
this bruises from just playing. A dog bite is deep fleshwound or deep, ripped punctures in my definition.


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## rick smith

hate to hit and run but BUSY and willbe gone for a few days...so want to say this now :
put the teeth issue at the top of the list if you are fostering this dog to be adopted. there is no way any rescue would turn this dog over now

i'm also assuming this will be a family pet, (maybe a semi serious sledder but i doubt they would be as easy to find and doubt he will be learning a bite sport), and if so any biting issues are a non starter, deal breaker and imo is much more important than crate training
- to me that bite would be classified as nasty and unacceptable for a pet, and a no biggy if it was a mistake with a working working dog
- it is really easy for almost any pet dog, and it should be NON negotiable to the dog....no teeth on humans - EVER, no matter how slight. 
- there are some things that are good for a dog to be scared of, and snakes, moving cars and biting humans (not humans that bite  ) are a few that come to mind
- teaching these survival skills doesn't make a dog timid and fearful and walk around with their tail tucked, it makes em live longer
- what u have been describing doesn't sound like resource guarding which should make it even easier, but you need to get the point across that humans are on a much higher pay grade than they appear to be now for this dog, and that doesn't mean carry a 2x4 around with you 
- well timed theatrics work great on soft dogs, Ecollars work well too if used correctly, and u can also teach it with tug play if you know how to target and can read him well
- and he definitely needs more leash time working for his daily rations of food and attention; hope you got it 

and of course - good luck !


----------



## Matt Grosch

rick smith said:


> imo the only words i would use to describe that picture are : DOG BITE.
> 
> for me a dog bite is ANYTIME a dog puts teeth on a human (or anything for that matter) ... anywhere on the body and it makes no difference if it's bare skin, on clothes or a shoelace, or breaks skin or bruises skin, or how much bite pressure is used....still a DOG BITE.
> rationalizing a dog bite any other way is the first step in denial and a bad road to start moving down. so no such thing as a "nip" to me either. which would also make a "mouthy" dog, a dog who chews when they bite
> - NOT judging you or saying how to deal with the different degrees of biting, but it's a lot easier for me that way, both for my own dogs and those who belong to someone else i'm working with
> - this definition makes a lot of training issues easier for me, and simplifies things with owners who always tend to downplay these issue for their dogs, and again, i'm not trying to give you a hard time .... ymmv
> 
> btw, exactly how are you dealing with this issue ? (or do i need to go back and read what i missed ?)




hmmmm.....my dutchie has grabbed my hand a few times with his mouth, no pain, damage, etc...

its when he is excited about something and it seems like a person trying to grab your hand just as someplace they want to go opens their doors and they are saying "hey lets go!"

Ive just verbally corrected him and thats it


also talked with a close female friend about him 'biting' her, when he mouthed her (I didnt see a mark), I still corrected him hard (he didnt do it casually) but had to tell her that saying the dog 'bit her' would be like if I gave a playful, light, friendly type punch/tap (shoulder or whatever) and saying she was hit by me.......inaccurate


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## Sandra King

I got my hands in between my dogs teeth too, while playing, training etc. Sometimes I wasn't fast enough and got a nasty puncture on my fingers and arms but that is while training, while they are in drive and going for a ball. It happens, it probably happened to all of us an it's expected. But a dog that is supposed to be adopted out to a normal pet home or possibly semi sledding home (if we can find one that is willing to take him) doesn't want to deal with a dog who is collar reactive and might go up your arm. Even thinking about adopting him out to a family, including kids, is impossible at this point. 

Right now I got suggestions from using compulsion (e-collar) to clicker training. As for how I dealt with it, when he went for my arm, I simply choked him off on the collar, like I'd choke him off a sleeve. Might have not been the best solution but in that instance I wasn't really thinking anyways, I simply reacted. Afterwards I put the harness on him to avoid the conlict and to be able to grab him, if needed. He is not head shy at all. He even wants to petted but there is a difference between petting him an going for the collar. What helps is when I pet him first and then go gently down his neck, going for the collar. So the marker training might not be the worst idea. Starting with the head, which he loves anyways, going for the neck and slowly working my way forward to the collar because I am not so sure if an e-collar would be the greatest idea in his case.


----------



## Sandra King

rick smith said:


> hate to hit and run but BUSY and willbe gone for a few days...so want to say this now :
> put the teeth issue at the top of the list if you are fostering this dog to be adopted. there is no way any rescue would turn this dog over now
> 
> i'm also assuming this will be a family pet, (maybe a semi serious sledder but i doubt they would be as easy to find and doubt he will be learning a bite sport), and if so any biting issues are a non starter, deal breaker and imo is much more important than crate training
> - to me that bite would be classified as nasty and unacceptable for a pet, and a no biggy if it was a mistake with a working working dog
> - it is really easy for almost any pet dog, and it should be NON negotiable to the dog....no teeth on humans - EVER, no matter how slight.
> - there are some things that are good for a dog to be scared of, and snakes, moving cars and biting humans (not humans that bite  ) are a few that come to mind
> - teaching these survival skills doesn't make a dog timid and fearful and walk around with their tail tucked, it makes em live longer
> - what u have been describing doesn't sound like resource guarding which should make it even easier, but you need to get the point across that humans are on a much higher pay grade than they appear to be now for this dog, and that doesn't mean carry a 2x4 around with you
> - well timed theatrics work great on soft dogs, Ecollars work well too if used correctly, and u can also teach it with tug play if you know how to target and can read him well
> - and he definitely needs more leash time working for his daily rations of food and attention; hope you got it
> 
> and of course - good luck !


Thanks, got it


----------



## Dave Colborn

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Yeah, they do go together don't they. The other scenario is dog is loaded but not restrained by you but can't get to prey. They get so frustrated they bite something. Its funny how of the talked about behaviours are in my bouv in a milder form. You will see the prey frustration aggression but she won't bite me. She also holds my hand in her mouth. She's actually linebred on a Dutch bouv.
> 
> T



I don't know what you are saying here. What is your question. My guess is that you don't know what you are looking at or talking about from your post. How are you going to not restrain a dog, but it can't get to the prey?

NOt restrained? Do you mean obedience? cause that's restraint. A physical barrier, that's restraint.


----------



## Dave Colborn

rick smith said:


> hate to hit and run but BUSY and willbe gone for a few days...so want to say this now :
> put the teeth issue at the top of the list if you are fostering this dog to be adopted. there is no way any rescue would turn this dog over now
> 
> i'm also assuming this will be a family pet, (maybe a semi serious sledder but i doubt they would be as easy to find and doubt he will be learning a bite sport), and if so any biting issues are a non starter, deal breaker and imo is much more important than crate training
> - to me that bite would be classified as nasty and unacceptable for a pet, and a no biggy if it was a mistake with a working working dog
> - it is really easy for almost any pet dog, and it should be NON negotiable to the dog....no teeth on humans - EVER, no matter how slight.
> - there are some things that are good for a dog to be scared of, and snakes, moving cars and biting humans (not humans that bite  ) are a few that come to mind
> - teaching these survival skills doesn't make a dog timid and fearful and walk around with their tail tucked, it makes em live longer
> - what u have been describing doesn't sound like resource guarding which should make it even easier, but you need to get the point across that humans are on a much higher pay grade than they appear to be now for this dog, and that doesn't mean carry a 2x4 around with you
> - well timed theatrics work great on soft dogs, Ecollars work well too if used correctly, and u can also teach it with tug play if you know how to target and can read him well
> - and he definitely needs more leash time working for his daily rations of food and attention; hope you got it
> 
> and of course - good luck !


I agree with some of this. Ask any good horse person and they will agree, you always get bit way before the first time the teeth are on you, just like dogs. There are a lot of warning signs that should have been addressed so that the dog/horse didn't get so pushy as to bite flesh. Harder with working dogs and not trying to cause bad habits, not so with pets.

I also agree with earlier posts of not freaking out over it if a dog wraps his mouth around you. I would correct this with redirection or obedience, but freaking out just rewards the behavior. If someone is comfortable with it and the dog has done it for years, great, I do odd stuff with my dogs that work for me, but I don't think that is for the faint of heart with strong dogs.


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

Dave Colborn said:


> I don't know what you are saying here. What is your question. My guess is that you don't know what you are looking at or talking about from your post. How are you going to not restrain a dog, but it can't get to the prey?
> 
> NOt restrained? Do you mean obedience? cause that's restraint. A physical barrier, that's restraint.


Never mind. In my situation----herding, I quit working her on a long line. Restraint built frustration. Freedom of movement doesn't. As long as she could move and work, she didn't build frustration. Its different with yours in terms of you do have to restrain and there are more triggers. Khira is not object [balls, toys, etc.] triggered. 


T


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

Sandra King said:


> Actually, I stated before that he's mouthy and that is when it gets tricky, his mouthyness can lead to him actually biting you. First he drops to the floor. Once you got him back up, he sits down and refuses to go with you. Then he goes up your arm with both his legs, trying to hold you. Then he starts beeing mouthy, trying to nibble and chew on your fingers, and then, if you are being consistent he actually shows teeth and snaps at you. Since the last time I posted it happened a couple of times. There is an underlying issue that didn't show in the beginning.
> 
> However, we have made significant progress. He does no longer pee into the house, he accepts the crate now, there is no more fighting IN the crate. The leash walking has gotten much much better. Not perfect yet, but much better than before. His behaviour in the house... well...we are working on the housemanner part.
> 
> As you can see, it's bruising, some scratches and a small pinch. That was when he went at me after I broke him up from a fight and a day later he went after my arm again. Meanwhile I have the hang of it and once he drops, I can pretty much pedict what happens next.
> Don't know if I'd call it war wounds. It's really not that bad but the rescue says it's a liability...


 
Sandra,

That dog isn't placeable in a pet home and that's not mouthy. That's called, protest biting. Sounds like he has refusal behaviors and if one doesn't work, he takes it to the next level--up to a bite. Fear is one thing and for that I do all types of marker work and desensitization. The rescues I've had had fear issues. Biting me because you don't want to do something would get you a come to Jesus. I don't do e-collars. In a situation like that I want them to know, its all coming from me and biting the hand that feeds you is an absolute no no. I'm not good at these because I'm not going to avoid the triggers. Again NILIF for this dog boot camp which might help get in his fhead from a pack perspective.


T


----------



## Dave Colborn

Sandra King said:


> Actually, I stated before that he's mouthy and that is when it gets tricky, his mouthyness can lead to him actually biting you. First he drops to the floor. Once you got him back up, he sits down and refuses to go with you. Then he goes up your arm with both his legs, trying to hold you. Then he starts beeing mouthy, trying to nibble and chew on your fingers, and then, if you are being consistent he actually shows teeth and snaps at you. Since the last time I posted it happened a couple of times. There is an underlying issue that didn't show in the beginning.
> 
> However, we have made significant progress. He does no longer pee into the house, he accepts the crate now, there is no more fighting IN the crate. The leash walking has gotten much much better. Not perfect yet, but much better than before. His behaviour in the house... well...we are working on the housemanner part.
> 
> As you can see, it's bruising, some scratches and a small pinch. That was when he went at me after I broke him up from a fight and a day later he went after my arm again. Meanwhile I have the hang of it and once he drops, I can pretty much pedict what happens next.
> Don't know if I'd call it war wounds. It's really not that bad but the rescue says it's a liability...


This should be in a pet forum, not in a working dog Example of being hard to handle. You and Terrasita should PM each other about this. If you want to some real help, find a qualified trainer to help you one on one. I doubt if any trainer would tell you via the internet that this dog couldn't be adopted. I'd go as far as to say, it almost could. The owne is the important part, someone who can get the dog through this. Get this guy under control with obedience, and make it mandatory. If you don't know how, get some help.


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## Sandra King

If you don't like it, ignore it. Simple as that! 

As of right now, the dog is not easy to handle at all and would be way to much for the average pet home. It doesn't matter what kind of dog it is, if it's not easy to handle, it's a hard to handle dog and that labe is not only for your KNPV Malinois. It could be ANY KIND OF BREED!

And honestly, I dread pet forums. The advise you get there stinks. At least here, people give you sound advise and new thought for food instead of "OMG, he bit you? PTS!" or "Poor baby, you need to love him some more..."


----------



## Debbie Skinner

Sandra King said:


> I got my hands in between my dogs teeth too, while playing, training etc. Sometimes I wasn't fast enough and got a nasty puncture on my fingers and arms but that is while training, while they are in drive and going for a ball. It happens, it probably happened to all of us an it's expected. But a dog that is supposed to be adopted out to a normal pet home or possibly semi sledding home (if we can find one that is willing to take him) doesn't want to deal with a dog who is collar reactive and might go up your arm. Even thinking about adopting him out to a family, including kids, is impossible at this point.
> 
> Right now I got suggestions from using compulsion (e-collar) to clicker training. As for how I dealt with it, when he went for my arm, I simply choked him off on the collar, like I'd choke him off a sleeve. Might have not been the best solution but in that instance I wasn't really thinking anyways, I simply reacted. Afterwards I put the harness on him to avoid the conlict and to be able to grab him, if needed. He is not head shy at all. He even wants to petted but there is a difference between petting him an going for the collar. What helps is when I pet him first and then go gently down his neck, going for the collar. So the marker training might not be the worst idea. Starting with the head, which he loves anyways, going for the neck and slowly working my way forward to the collar because I am not so sure if an e-collar would be the greatest idea in his case.


You just choked him off? Not choked him out? You didn't express to him how wrong it was to bite you and that he should not ever, ever think of doing this again in this lifetime? I usually make the correction for this pretty darn hard and then it's clear to not do this again. 

Of course I've gotten bruised playing with my dogs that play rough. 

But the kind of protest nipping and climbing on you with the legs is bs and I won't tolerate it. If there's a dog fight, I'll take a 2x 4 to break it up as it's forbidden and the dogs don't even think to bite me. I think it depends on your relationship with the dogs. But, it's very important when owning multiple dogs that the dogs respect the owner absolutely imo. 

If you have a harness on him how are you going to be able to choke him out or off of you if he tries to bite you? You would have to grab him I guess w/o having the advantage of of choke cord. I personally would have a choke cord on the dog. I'm probably old school as I wouldn't clicker or e-collar for this as it's a respect issue.


----------



## Sandra King

Debbie Skinner said:


> You just choked him off? Not choked him out? You didn't express to him how wrong it was to bite you and that he should not ever, ever think of doing this again in this lifetime? I usually make the correction for this pretty darn hard and then it's clear to not do this again.
> 
> Of course I've gotten bruised playing with my dogs that play rough.
> 
> But the kind of protest nipping and climbing on you with the legs is bs and I won't tolerate it. If there's a dog fight, I'll take a 2x 4 to break it up as it's forbidden and the dogs don't even think to bite me. I think it depends on your relationship with the dogs. But, it's very important when owning multiple dogs that the dogs respect the owner absolutely imo.
> 
> If you have a harness on him how are you going to be able to choke him out or off of you if he tries to bite you? You would have to grab him I guess w/o having the advantage of of choke cord. I personally would have a choke cord on the dog. I'm probably old school as I wouldn't clicker or e-collar for this as it's a respect issue.


Of course I corrected him. I'd be stupid not to. As for breaking a fight up, I'm pretty consequent about that too. It's not tolerated in this house and I have not had a dog fight in years. But that little shit has challenged me in any kind of way like no other dog, ever, before. I believe somebody said that it's a Husky trait as well. Either you stick to your ground or you are beneath them? 

I do prefer positive reinforcement but if old school will solve the respect issue then I have no issue with pulling out the "Big Guns".


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## Lynn Cheffins

If he puts his teeth on you like you described he needs the "shock and awe" treatment. He's not respecting you and is trying to get away with what has worked in the past. He should be finding it hard to breathe if he tries to put his teeth on you.


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## Dave Colborn

Sandra King said:


> If you don't like it, ignore it. Simple as that!
> 
> As of right now, the dog is not easy to handle at all and would be way to much *for the average pet home.* It doesn't matter what kind of dog it is, if it's not easy to handle, it's a hard to handle dog and that labe is not only for your KNPV Malinois. It could be ANY KIND OF BREED!
> 
> And honestly, I dread pet forums. The advise you get there stinks. At least here, people give you sound advise and new thought for food instead of "OMG, he bit you? PTS!" or "Poor baby, you need to love him some more..."



No, you are violating the rules, and bothering me while i talk with those that enjoy working and talking about working dogs. I got and get roped in sometimes and I am trying to stop that. You can help by following the rules.



> This is an excerpt from forum rules.
> 
> *4. This is not a general obedience site.*
> Basic dog issues...housebreaking, basic leadership, crating, etc...are topics best left to other forums. Please PM a moderator if you would like a link to places better equipped to address those needs.
> 
> *5. This is a site for working dogs.*
> Working dogs are animals with high levels of training directed towards tasks too dirty, dangerous, or difficult for humans. Working dogs are also animals engaged in sports designed to maintain those capabilities (generally, bitework, obedience, and tracking). Service/therapy dogs, hunting dogs, and sled dogs are just a few examples of other kinds of working dogs. We generally like 'em all.


Your post is demeaning to the accomplishments of police, sport, military, herding folks, all over the forum. You are getting away from the original thread. You are a comparing a dog (that I would have in hand in a few days, guaranteed) to every other working dog out there. 

Mods, am I wrong about my post? As a solution, there could be a pet issues section? I come to you with solutions, not just pointing out the problem.

Dave Colborn


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## maggie fraser

Folks could be a little less pompous and a little more direct in getting the point across without hurting folks perceptions you know,

Sandra, you ain't sounding cool mismanaging a rescue on a working dog site....maybe take it to Leerburg ?

Now, wasn't that a wee bit better ?


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## Dave Colborn

maggie fraser said:


> Folks could be a little less pompous and a little more direct in getting the point across without hurting folks perceptions you know,
> 
> Sandra, you ain't sounding cool mismanaging a rescue on a working dog site....maybe take it to Leerburg ?
> 
> Now, wasn't that a wee bit better ?



Thanks for giving that to Sandra in words with bad grammar that she might understand from a peer. Are you calling me pompous?


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## Doug Zaga

... a rescued sled dog? :twisted:


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## maggie fraser

Dave Colborn said:


> Are you calling me pompous?


Absolutely ! And it ain't cool. (That was also bad grammar). Especially when you've already tricked folks into thinking you're cool ! (Bad grammar also)!


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## Debbie Skinner

Sandra King said:


> Of course I corrected him. I'd be stupid not to. As for breaking a fight up, I'm pretty consequent about that too. It's not tolerated in this house and I have not had a dog fight in years. But that little shit has challenged me in any kind of way like no other dog, ever, before. I believe somebody said that it's a Husky trait as well. Either you stick to your ground or you are beneath them?
> 
> I do prefer positive reinforcement but if old school will solve the respect issue then I have no issue with pulling out the "Big Guns".


I don't think positive or cookie techniques will help with a respect issue and I don't think what I suggested was really big guns, just an well known old technique. I hesitate to talk about what I'd consider "Big guns" on the internet. Good luck and sorry to get off topic by answering as this dog as described and nipping, etc isn't what I'd consider a hard to handle dog. Probably could be fixed in 1-2 lessons here, but that doesn't mean it's suitable pet..it would just be "fixed" for me and wouldn't try that bs with me again.


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## Dave Colborn

maggie fraser said:


> Absolutely ! And it ain't cool. (That was also bad grammar). Especially when you've already tricked folks into thinking you're cool ! (Bad grammar also)!



I don't get it Maggie. There is a difference between pompous and competent and confident. Tricked into thinking I am cool? What is that? I am just me. Dumb shit comes out of my mouth sometimes, and sometimes I have good things to say that are useful. But since you can only control what you think, you must think I am cool, so I thank you for that. I have never considered myself cool nor do I attempt to be. I also think you might be hard pressed to find one person on her that would agree with you. Maybe you should answer by PM so we don't clutter the thread anymore.


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## maggie fraser

Dave Colborn said:


> I don't get it Maggie. There is a difference between pompous and competent and confident. Tricked into thinking I am cool? What is that? I am just me. Dumb shit comes out of my mouth sometimes, and sometimes I have good things to say that are useful. But since you can only control what you think, you must think I am cool, so I thank you for that. I have never considered myself cool nor do I attempt to be. I also think you might be hard pressed to find one person on her that would agree with you. Maybe you should answer by PM so we don't clutter the thread anymore.


hehe ok, pm on the way and thanks for the invite.


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## jeff gamber

maggie fraser said:


> Especially when you've already tricked folks into thinking you're cool ! (Bad grammar also)!


Maggie, that grammar was oaky! 

Just trying to keep a positive spin on things folk...


----------



## Sandra King

Debbie Skinner said:


> I don't think positive or cookie techniques will help with a respect issue and I don't think what I suggested was really big guns, just an well known old technique. I hesitate to talk about what I'd consider "Big guns" on the internet. Good luck and sorry to get off topic by answering as this dog as described and nipping, etc isn't what I'd consider a hard to handle dog. Probably could be fixed in 1-2 lessons here, but that doesn't mean it's suitable pet..it would just be "fixed" for me and wouldn't try that bs with me again.


i wouldn't be so sure about that it'd be solved in one or two lessons. His entire behavior makes him not that easy to handle and it's not just nipping. He's actually going for you, I was just lucky to choke him off before he got me real good. It could have been much worse. It was an attack. Not just some nipping and when you correct him at first, he's actually going at you more which leads to more corrections and to the point where it gets really nasty.


----------



## Guest

Dave Colborn said:


> No, you are violating the rules, and bothering me while i talk with those that enjoy working and talking about working dogs. I got and get roped in sometimes and I am trying to stop that. You can help by following the rules.
> 
> Your post is demeaning to the accomplishments of police, sport, military, herding folks, all over the forum. You are getting away from the original thread. You are a comparing a dog (that I would have in hand in a few days, guaranteed) to every other working dog out there.
> 
> Mods, am I wrong about my post? As a solution, there could be a pet issues section? I come to you with solutions, not just pointing out the problem.
> 
> Dave Colborn


 
I agree, this was a decent thread discussing things, but what the **** already! talking hard to handle working dogs! If can't control give it to someone who can, if there isn't anyone, get rid of it! For every dog that won't do what you want, there are hundreds that will....You ever think the dog maybe thinking the same thing about its handler? WTF?


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## Jim Nash

I lift weights alot and try to workout at least 3 times a week . I'm 5'9 , 200lbs and I still have trouble dealing with a dog that's going after me . I understand the advice your are giving Debbie I just don't see it as doable for most here unless they have help or a dog that will give up quickly .


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## Sandra King

Wow... so just because a dog is a mix and comes out of a shelter mean he can't be a working dog? What an elitist BULLSHIT!
He's a mix of two working breeds and who knows, maybe, after I put in the effort to get him on the right track, he actually makes a nice working dog in some way. He's got definitely enough drive and energy to do something. 

The topic is about examples of hard to handle DOGS and here I am, actually having troubles to handle a dog that is hard to handle and I get bullshit that I am violating the rules. 

IF you are so great why don't you come up with some suggestions.


----------



## Debbie Skinner

Jim Nash said:


> I lift weights alot and try to workout at least 3 times a week . I'm 5'9 , 200lbs and I still have trouble dealing with a dog that's going after me . I understand the advice your are giving Debbie I just don't see it as doable for most here unless they have help or a dog that will give up quickly .


What I've done is set the dog up and have a long line alread over the top of the bar kennels if the dog isn't huge. I don't recommend doing it alone if possible. "double lining" is safest.

How big is the husky? I thought they weigh about 50-60 lbs. Is it huge?

What do you suggest doing Jim?


----------



## Guest

Sandra King said:


> Wow... so just because a dog is a mix and comes out of a shelter mean he can't be a working dog? What an elitist BULLSHIT!
> He's a mix of two working breeds and who knows, maybe, after I put in the effort to get him on the right track, he actually makes a nice working dog in some way. He's got definitely enough drive and energy to do something.
> 
> The topic is about examples of hard to handle DOGS and here I am, actually having troubles to handle a dog that is hard to handle and I get bullshit that I am violating the rules.
> 
> IF you are so great why don't you come up with some suggestions.


 
Because Im not on the internet 24/7, I actually have a life, job, family, keep myself and body in shape, if I thought I could help I would PM, I don't think I am anybody, but I am who I am, call me what you will, you can't hurt me, but if it where the other way around, how much could you handle.....OOPPS we've seen that story already. 

BTW, before you get so personal and uptight over BS, what and where was this said dog working/doing?

and I've seen/heard your experitse about working dogs, your way above my league, I can't argue that point!


----------



## Debbie Skinner

Sandra King said:


> i wouldn't be so sure about that it'd be solved in one or two lessons. His entire behavior makes him not that easy to handle and it's not just nipping. He's actually going for you, I was just lucky to choke him off before he got me real good. It could have been much worse. It was an attack. Not just some nipping and when you correct him at first, he's actually going at you more which leads to more corrections and to the point where it gets really nasty.


Maybe pts then if it's not a good dog and not suitable for anyone? No value as a breeding animal? Working Animal? Not a pet.. What kind of placement are you planning for this dog? Did I miss a post where you described his redeeming qualities?


----------



## Jim Nash

Sandra King said:


> Wow... so just because a dog is a mix and comes out of a shelter mean he can't be a working dog? What an elitist BULLSHIT!
> He's a mix of two working breeds and who knows, maybe, after I put in the effort to get him on the right track, he actually makes a nice working dog in some way. He's got definitely enough drive and energy to do something.
> 
> The topic is about examples of hard to handle DOGS and here I am, actually having troubles to handle a dog that is hard to handle and I get bullshit that I am violating the rules.
> 
> IF you are so great why don't you come up with some suggestions.



The dog in question is not currently a working dog and from the sounds of it doesn't have much of a chance in becoming one and up until now I didn't hear anything in detail about it becoming a working dog .


----------



## Sandra King

maggie fraser said:


> Folks could be a little less pompous and a little more direct in getting the point across without hurting folks perceptions you know,
> 
> Sandra, you ain't sounding cool *mismanaging *a rescue on a working dog site....maybe take it to Leerburg ?
> 
> Now, wasn't that a wee bit better ?


Mismanaging? In what kind of way am I mismanaging him? I am working him in obedience, daily. He's separated from my dogs, I took every bit of advise that I have gotten previously about how to handle a farking Husky. He has to earn his damn food. I am sick and tired of people assuming things. 

I had him pulling every single day until he pulled a muscle and started limping. Sometimes I really don't get you people. Right now, that dog IS ACTUALLY WORKING, WORKING FOR EVERY SINGLE KIBBLE OF FOOD! We are working dog home, I am involved with dog sport an SAR and simply opened up my home to a darn Foster that turned out to be a bigger pain in the arse than expected. 

OP wanted an example of hard to handle dogs... HERE YOU GOT ONE!


----------



## Guest

Jim Nash said:


> The dog in question is not currently a working dog and from the sounds of it doesn't have much of a chance in becoming one and up until now I didn't hear anything in detail about it becoming a working dog .


Hey hey Jim it works in OB and fight, that classifies it as working, remember we all have definitions now


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## Guest

Sandra King said:


> Mismanaging? In what kind of way am I mismanaging him? I am working him in obedience, daily. He's separated from my dogs, I took every bit of advise that I have gotten previously about how to handle a farking Husky. He has to earn his damn food. I am sick and tired of people assuming things.
> 
> I had him pulling every single day until he pulled a muscle and started limping. Sometimes I really don't get you people. Right now, that dog IS ACTUALLY WORKING, WORKING FOR EVERY SINGLE KIBBLE OF FOOD! We are working dog home, I am involved with dog sport an SAR and simply opened up my home to a darn Foster that turned out to be a bigger pain in the arse than expected.
> 
> OP wanted an example of hard to handle dogs... HERE YOU GOT ONE!


 
where you located, send the dog to me, at your expense, i will take care of the dog!


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## Shane Woodlief

Sandra King said:


> Wow... so just because a dog is a mix and comes out of a shelter mean he can't be a working dog? What an elitist BULLSHIT!
> He's a mix of two working breeds and who knows, maybe, after I put in the effort to get him on the right track, he actually makes a nice working dog in some way. He's got definitely enough drive and energy to do something.
> 
> The topic is about examples of hard to handle DOGS and here I am, actually having troubles to handle a dog that is hard to handle and I get bullshit that I am violating the rules.
> 
> IF you are so great why don't you come up with some suggestions.


Sandra, what I often find with the people that I work with is that they strive so hard to be right regardless the issue - and they strive so hard to be validated that at some point and time they stop communicating - becasue all they care about is being right. That need of being right hinders our ability to be understood. Also striving to be right also effect how we listen - truly listen to what people are trying to communicate to us. I think you have to ask "What am I communicating" and "What is it that I am hearing?" Not being judgmental - just some food for thought.


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## Sandra King

Jody Butler said:


> Because Im not on the internet 24/7, I actually have a life, job, family, keep myself and body in shape, if I thought I could help I would PM, I don't think I am anybody, but I am who I am, call me what you will, you can't hurt me, but if it where the other way around, how much could you handle.....OOPPS we've seen that story already.
> 
> BTW, before you get so personal and uptight over BS, what and where was this said dog working/doing?
> 
> and I've seen/heard your experitse about working dogs, your way above my league, I can't argue that point!


Actually, that wasn't directed towards you. 

I am not above anyones league and I never said I was.


----------



## Guest

Sandra King said:


> Mismanaging? In what kind of way am I mismanaging him? I am working him in obedience, daily. He's separated from my dogs, I took every bit of advise that I have gotten previously about how to handle a farking Husky. He has to earn his damn food. I am sick and tired of people assuming things.
> 
> I had him pulling every single day until he pulled a muscle and started limping. Sometimes I really don't get you people. Right now, that dog IS ACTUALLY WORKING, WORKING FOR EVERY SINGLE KIBBLE OF FOOD! We are working dog home, I am involved with dog sport an SAR and simply opened up my home to a darn Foster that turned out to be a bigger pain in the arse than expected.
> 
> OP wanted an example of hard to handle dogs... HERE YOU GOT ONE!


 
my dog works his ass off to get off my bed inthe morning, is that working! Geezus its ok to be different, its ok to argue your point and stand behind your actions, but look at the majority of your posts, what you think is one thing, multiple people think is another? Who is at question here? Maybe you are the dog whisper, who knows....Deep breath, walk around the block, gin and tonic, hey do whatever you do.....oh yeah I forgot POST BS on this forum


----------



## Jim Nash

Debbie Skinner said:


> What I've done is set the dog up and have a long line alread over the top of the bar kennels if the dog isn't huge. I don't recommend doing it alone if possible. "double lining" is safest.
> 
> How big is the husky? I thought they weigh about 50-60 lbs. Is it huge?
> 
> What do you suggest doing Jim?


This is something IMO not to be handled on the internet . Give advice about handling this dog and she can't pull it off bad stuff can happen if she has a dog that will truely take it to her .


----------



## maggie fraser

Shane Woodlief said:


> Sandra, what I often find with the people that I work with is that they strive so hard to be right regardless the issue - and they strive so hard to be validated that at some point and time they stop communicating - becasue all they care about is being right. That need of being right hinders our ability to be understood. Also striving to be right also effect how we listen - truly listen to what people are trying to communicate to us. I think you have to ask "What am I communicating" and "What is it that I am hearing?" Not being judgmental - just some food for thought.


 
But you are being judgemental, and patronising. Now you just think about what you have just communicated.


----------



## Sandra King

Jody Butler said:


> Hey hey Jim it works in OB and fight, that classifies it as working, remember we all have definitions now


Obedience is the foundation of EVERYTHING! You've got to start out somewhere an without obedience you can't work a dog in any venue... come on people... REALLY?

He's got a heck of a lot of food drive and he's got quite some prey drive in him as well on top of an enormous amount of energy.


----------



## Guest

I"ll be back gotta go feed/water my dogs, but first need to get my lead pipe and side arm, these guys are tough!! Do you think what has been suggested will work? I am curious I have tried everything that has been mentioned on this forum in the last year, they just seem to be getting stronger?


----------



## Guest

Sandra King said:


> Obedience is the foundation of EVERYTHING! You've got to start out somewhere an without obedience you can't work a dog in any venue... come on people... REALLY?
> 
> He's got a heck of a lot of food drive and he's got quite some prey drive in him as well on top of an enormous amount of energy.


so are manners, but doesn't mean its a working dog. some peoples kids.....=D>


----------



## Connie Sutherland

Sandra King said:


> If you don't like it, ignore it. Simple as that!
> 
> As of right now, the dog is not easy to handle at all and would be way to much for the average pet home. It doesn't matter what kind of dog it is, if it's not easy to handle, it's a hard to handle dog and that labe is not only for your KNPV Malinois. It could be ANY KIND OF BREED!
> 
> And honestly, I dread pet forums. The advise you get there stinks. At least here, people give you sound advise and new thought for food instead of "OMG, he bit you? PTS!" or "Poor baby, you need to love him some more..."


This thread is in "General *Working Dog *Discussion."

You can move it to here:

http://www.WorkingDogForum.com/vBulletin/f51/

That was the forum where "So I had My First Fight in the House" was and that's where this one goes too. 

You could refer back to this thread, but let's take this subject out of this thread. Thanks!


----------



## Shane Woodlief

maggie fraser said:


> But you are being judgemental, and patronising. Now you just think about what you have just communicated.


Maggie your right that is exactly what I was trying to do


----------



## Debbie Skinner

Jim Nash said:


> This is something IMO not to be handled on the internet . Give advice about handling this dog and she can't pull it off bad stuff can happen if she has a dog that will truely take it to her .


But, she is asking for help and already getting hurt by this dog. She's already choked the dog. I'm suggesting something safer is all. I believe if she wants to take my advice, she will call me and I can describe how I'd do it. Already said I would not say how to on the internet in previous post.


----------



## Joby Becker

OMG....

again, it is a naive person would bring a rescue dog into a household with 3-4 other dogs, and not expect this type of crap to happen...sounds like the dog is getting more screwed up, and further away from his "forever" home...

my advice get rid of him...


----------



## Doug Zaga

Sandra King said:


> I'd love to get some suggestions. My Foster Chris has some moments where it's kind of hard to handle him and I am not sure what exactly triggers it. One time he's okay when you reach for his collar, the next time he's actually leaping forward biting you into the arm. How would you handle that kind of reaction. You can pet him anywhere around the neck, head, anywhere. But as soon as you try to reach his collar to put a leash on it or to lead him into the crate he might actually attack you an the way he is right now, he'd be way too much for the average dog owner and the people I rescued him with, said that they don't need a dog that is a liability and since he bit me numerous times he's got a biting history which makes it hard to place him.
> 
> I wouldn't call him a bad dog or anywhere near hard to handle. He's got some issues an in these brief moments he is hard to handle but overall he's not anywhere as hard as some of the dogs you described in here. However, I'd love to get some suggestions of how you'd solve that issue. And to put a muzzle on him doesn't solve the problem.
> 
> Usually I pet him around the head first, he seems to be more willing to let me grab it when I do that first *but he's always on the "watch" and it almost seems like it's a fear issue*.


Sandra I think you answered the dogs issues in your post. 

If you want him to have a chance in a new home...work on desensitiving and building trust with him when reaching for the collar.. what would be the reward if he does accept your hand going toward the collar....just my 25 cents.


----------



## Sandra King

deleted .... this topic is moving


Thanks!


----------



## Connie Sutherland

Connie Sutherland said:


> This thread is in "General *Working Dog *Discussion."
> 
> You can move it to here:
> 
> http://www.WorkingDogForum.com/vBulletin/f51/
> 
> That was the forum where "So I had My First Fight in the House" was and that's where this one goes too.
> 
> You could refer back to this thread, but let's take this subject out of this thread. Thanks!


And please, stop responding here to it! You can't have it both ways. :lol:

Sandra, open a new thread at http://www.WorkingDogForum.com/vBulletin/f51/ and refer to
http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBul...ing-hard-handle-21214/index12.html#post289743
in it.


----------



## maggie fraser

The topic's so hot we're on two threads ?


----------



## Connie Sutherland

maggie fraser said:


> The topic's so hot we're on two threads ?


:lol:


Sandra's topic didn't belong in this thread. This is a "General *Working Dog *Discussion."

Hey, we have all these nifty special forums; let's use 'em!


----------



## Doug Zaga

Sorry Connie you can either move my last post or delete it...thanks.


Reply:
It's fine!

This was mentioned by several people:
_
"The dog in question is not currently a working dog and from the sounds of it doesn't have much of a chance in becoming one .... "_

Sandra (or anyone) can have a topic of a rescue/foster non-working dog; it just doesn't belong here.


----------



## Guest

Doug Zaga said:


> Sandra I think you answered the dogs issues in your post.
> 
> If you want him to have a chance in a new home...work on desensitiving and building trust with him when reaching for the collar.. what would be the reward if he does accept your hand going toward the collar....just my 25 cents.


 
send him to me, send him to me


----------



## maggie fraser

Jody Butler said:


> send him to me, send him to me


 
See Sandra, you have found him a home after all. Just pop in you only want a few hundred bucks for him and you're quids in !


----------



## Peter Cavallaro

Shane Woodlief said:


> Sandra, what I often find with the people that I work with is that they strive so hard to be right regardless the issue - and they strive so hard to be validated that at some point and time they stop communicating - becasue all they care about is being right. That need of being right hinders our ability to be understood. Also striving to be right also effect how we listen - truly listen to what people are trying to communicate to us. I think you have to ask "What am I communicating" and "What is it that I am hearing?" Not being judgmental - just some food for thought.


 
hmmm, i've spent a lot of time at that place - well worded post - thing is keep trying and keep listening no matter who u are or how developed yr skill level and care for the dog u got or get a humane alternative soltuion ASAP.

thanks for the post Shane


----------



## Peter Cavallaro

maggie fraser said:


> But you are being judgemental, and patronising. Now you just think about what you have just communicated.


 
maggie are u on drugs?? - Shane's was one of the few thinking posts i ever got - could you consider that u may be a bit condescending at times in a suttle way - i mean how many actual training solution/questions have you ever posted compared to your usual personal crap talk JMO.


----------



## Peter Cavallaro

re-word that as subtle - not to be confused with that mike guy


----------



## maggie fraser

Peter Cavallaro said:


> maggie are u on drugs?? - Shane's was one of the few thinking posts i ever got - could you consider that u may be a bit condescending at times in a suttle way - i mean how many actual training solution/questions have you ever posted compared to your usual personal crap talk JMO.


I am not on drugs Peter, are you just out your bed ?

Because that was one of the few thinking posts YOU ever got does not mean to say it is correct to my thinking. If you are looking for a fight with me, you are out of luck !


----------



## Doug Zaga

Peter Cavallaro said:


> maggie are u on drugs?? - Shane's was one of the few thinking posts i ever got - could you consider that u may be a bit condescending at times in a suttle way - i mean how many actual training solution/questions have you ever posted compared to your usual personal crap talk JMO.





maggie fraser said:


> I am not on drugs Peter, are you just out your bed ?
> 
> Because that was one of the few thinking posts YOU ever got does not mean to say it is correct to my thinking. If you are looking for a fight with me, you are out of luck !


Dogs Hard to Handle not....:mrgreen:


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

Debbie Skinner said:


> I don't think positive or cookie techniques will help with a respect issue and I don't think what I suggested was really big guns, just an well known old technique. I hesitate to talk about what I'd consider "Big guns" on the internet. Good luck and sorry to get off topic by answering as this dog as described and nipping, etc isn't what I'd consider a hard to handle dog. Probably could be fixed in 1-2 lessons here, but that doesn't mean it's suitable pet..it would just be "fixed" for me and wouldn't try that bs with me again.


 
I agree with Lynn and Debbie. And Sandra, as far as the going for me--he'd do it once. I also think Jim is right. Also as a woman, I know my physical limitations. If I couldn't physically handle this dog in this situation, then its not something I would take on because the dog can't win. If its a pack respect issue, you shouldn't have to revisit it more than once or twice if you were effective. Otherwise, he's got a loose screw and if you aren't going to keep him for life and deal with it, then this side of earth may not be for him. I'm all for getting in the dog's head but I'd bet money, he's used to getting away with such crap. Someone needs to be there with you in the moment to read him and then decide accordingly.


T


----------



## Peter Cavallaro

maggie fraser said:


> I am not on drugs Peter, are you just out your bed ?
> 
> Because that was one of the few thinking posts YOU ever got does not mean to say it is correct to my thinking. If you are looking for a fight with me, you are out of luck !


 
not going to get into an off-topic internet beef - just wanna be a good WDF citizen. people see things different at times - no prob.


----------



## Connie Sutherland

Let's return to the thread topic.

Remember? :lol:

*
General Working Dog Discussion » Examples of dogs being hard to handle*


----------



## Matt Grosch

I leave this thread for a few hours and look what happens.....




still hoping for some of the really experienced working dog people giving examples of what they have dealt with that would qualify


----------



## Joby Becker

the phrase is a relative thing for sure...my dog is relatively easy for me to handle..give her to the next door neighbor, she would most likely bite him, his wife, or his kids...in a short period of time.


----------



## Matt Grosch

Id say they opposite, its an objective term, not subjective.


You would look at the average working dog owner, not any of the super experienced handlers that can deal with almost any dog.


Take the avg working dog handler, who wont have a ton of experience, probably a dog or two, and if they could deal with the dog its not hard to handle, if they would likely have problems, it isnt


just like a guy is either tough or not, you cant say "well yeah he is tough if he is fighting an old woman" or that he isnt if he is fighting brock lesnar, you compare him to the avg guy


----------



## Matt Grosch

or a better hypo might be a new/green police k9 handler


there are easy to handle dogs that would be good, and hard to handle dogs that wouldnt.....right?


----------



## Joby Becker

Matt Grosch said:


> or a better hypo might be a new/green police k9 handler
> 
> 
> there are easy to handle dogs that would be good, and hard to handle dogs that wouldnt.....right?


I was sitting in court once and struck up a conversation with a K9 handler from my town in Indiana, we started talking dogs. I told him I had 2 malinois and asked what he had as his partner.

He said I have a GSD, we dog not use Malinois, they do not transfer well..he meant transfer handlers, they bite their handlers...I found that intriguing myself.

I found out that most of their experience was with forgiving type GSD. That they could do things with most of the dogs, that would get people hurt with a mal or dutchie, or even gsd...that was not as forgiving...

my dog has many traits that would not make it easy for someone who is only used to handling easy gsd...


----------



## Sandra King

Joby Becker said:


> I was sitting in court once and struck up a conversation with a K9 handler from my town in Indiana, we started talking dogs. I told him I had 2 malinois and asked what he had as his partner.
> 
> He said I have a GSD, we dog not use Malinois, they do not transfer well..he meant transfer handlers, they bite their handlers...I found that intriguing myself.
> 
> I found out that most of their experience was with forgiving type GSD. That they could do things with most of the dogs, that would get people hurt with a mal or dutchie, or even gsd...that was not as forgiving...
> 
> my dog has many traits that would not make it easy for someone who is only used to handling easy gsd...


I think there are not only hard to handle Mals out there. My friend has a retired police dog. She got shot in the face, survived and lost her front teeth. She is one of the biggest love bugs I've ever seen. She loves attention and she also is a certified Therapy Dog. 

As soon as you take the Stick out though, it's on!

She actually placed second at the last years Iron Dog Competition in Virginia. 

Growing up I was used to handle dogs that only did well with one handler but they would accept other people around them and you could have guests over without having to lock them away. I remember one dog that, if you showed weakness, would use that against you and attack you. He was sold into the US as a police dog and attacked his first handler, then went to a different handler who could handle him. 

A handler aggressive dog does not equal a hard dog, in my opinion. It is, however a hard to handle dog. But not only handler aggressive dogs are hard to handle dogs. There is a whole lot more variety out there. 

Prey Monsters that are so driven that they can't think straight and are so locked in prey that they might be a hard to handle dogs for some people. 
Skittish dogs are hard to handle for some people because they don't have the right hand for them. 
Abused Working Dogs that come out of abusive sport homes (and lets face it, there are quite a few sport homes out there that are not only borderline but full blown abusive) are hard to handle dogs and not everybody can rehabilitate dogs like that and so on and on and on...


----------



## Joby Becker

Sandra King said:


> I think there are not only hard to handle Mals out there. My friend has a retired police dog. She got shot in the face, survived and lost her front teeth. She is one of the biggest love bugs I've ever seen. She loves attention and she also is a certified Therapy Dog.
> 
> As soon as you take the Stick out though, it's on!
> 
> She actually placed second at the last years Iron Dog Competition in Virginia.
> 
> Growing up I was used to handle dogs that only did well with one handler but they would accept other people around them and you could have guests over without having to lock them away. I remember one dog that, if you showed weakness, would use that against you and attack you. He was sold into the US as a police dog and attacked his first handler, then went to a different handler who could handle him.
> 
> A handler aggressive dog does not equal a hard dog, in my opinion. It is, however a hard to handle dog. But not only handler aggressive dogs are hard to handle dogs. There is a whole lot more variety out there.
> 
> Prey Monsters that are so driven that they can't think straight and are so locked in prey that they might be a hard to handle dogs for some people.
> Skittish dogs are hard to handle for some people because they don't have the right hand for them.
> Abused Working Dogs that come out of abusive sport homes (and lets face it, there are quite a few sport homes out there that are not only borderline but full blown abusive) are hard to handle dogs and not everybody can rehabilitate dogs like that and so on and on and on...


what is locked in prey to you?? just curious...


----------



## Sandra King

Joby Becker said:


> what is locked in prey to you?? just curious...


You find that mainly in todays sport dogs. It's what ya'll always talk about. You know, the difference between the dogs back then and todays dogs. The dogs that lack sharpness but have tons and tons of prey drive, so much that they don't listen to their own handler once they are locked into the prey object. All they have is prey. There is no balance of hardness, sharpness and prey. It's just prey. Too much prey.


----------



## Joby Becker

Sandra King said:


> You find that mainly in todays sport dogs. It's what ya'll always talk about. You know, the difference between the dogs back then and todays dogs. The dogs that lack sharpness but have tons and tons of prey drive, so much that they don't listen to their own handler once they are locked into the prey object. All they have is prey. There is no balance of hardness, sharpness and prey. It's just prey. Too much prey.


not following you...what does hardness have to do with prey? what is hardness to you?


----------



## Guest

Sandra King said:


> You find that mainly in todays sport dogs. It's what ya'll always talk about. You know, the difference between the dogs back then and todays dogs. The dogs that lack sharpness but have tons and tons of prey drive, so much that they don't listen to their own handler once they are locked into the prey object. All they have is prey. There is no balance of hardness, sharpness and prey. It's just prey. Too much prey.


Would you say it's too much prey or not enough of something else? I've never seen a dog that had too much prey, but have seen unbalanced dogs. I don't think you could ever have too much prey.


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## Joby Becker

I dont see how having a dog *locked in prey* (as how I understand it) has anything to do with the topics of being hard to handle, maybe it is a language barrier or something..

when I hear "locked in prey" I think of a dog that is very strong nerved and is very confident and has never been worked in a manner to bring out civil aggression, or in defense or whatever. He works in prey only.


----------



## Sandra King

Jody Butler said:


> Would you say it's too much prey or not enough of something else? I've never seen a dog that had too much prey, but have seen unbalanced dogs. I don't think you could ever have too much prey.


Actually, if it's only prey and not enough of something else, it's too much prey and not enough of the other desirable traits.


----------



## will fernandez

If my dog can give the decoy as much as it is getting locked in prey...I could care less about the other drives.


----------



## Sandra King

will fernandez said:


> If my dog can give the decoy as much as it is getting locked in prey...I could care less about the other drives.


And that kind of thinking is the beginning of the end of any breed. 
When you look at the GSD, the GSD is not supposed to be all prey.


----------



## Dave Colborn

Sandra King said:


> And that kind of thinking is the beginning of the end of any breed.
> When you look at the GSD, the GSD is not supposed to be all prey.



Are you familiar with the term non-classical prey agression? very desirable, and occasionally hard to handle


----------



## Sandra King

Dave Colborn said:


> Are you familiar with the term non-classical prey agression? very desirable, and occasionally hard to handle


I understand what you mean out of context. But I am not so sure what the non-classical stands for. Please elaborate. Prey Aggression explains itself but what do you mean with non-classical?


----------



## Joby Becker

will fernandez said:


> If my dog can give the decoy as much as it is getting locked in prey...I could care less about the other drives.


Even for a police dog it could be fine...IF the human is the prey..


----------



## will fernandez

Sandra King said:


> And that kind of thinking is the beginning of the end of any breed.
> When you look at the GSD, the GSD is not supposed to be all prey.


 
Maybe for what you want out of the breed. But for me it would be a good thing.


----------



## Sandra King

will fernandez said:


> Maybe for what you want out of the breed. But for me it would be a good thing.


Why?


----------



## will fernandez

Sandra

Its what I like. I like to train highly driven dogs. I dont care about balance. I like dogs that will run through fire for their toy. Dont train pets. Dont expect my dog to chill out and watch tv. Just that he does his job as well as I can train him for it.


----------



## Sandra King

@Joby: how do i explain that. When I asked my dad about a certain dog he said that he has an intense prey drive but that he isn't a hard dog. We understand each other but I am not sure if I can explain it to your satisfaction. 

A dog that lacks hardness doesn't work very well under real pressure, however, the preydrive can be used to your advantage and you can make a dog look hard even though he isn't and not everybody can tell the difference.


----------



## Guest

Sandra King said:


> @Joby: how do i explain that. When I asked my dad about a certain dog he said that he has an intense prey drive but that he isn't a hard dog. We understand each other but I am not sure if I can explain it to your satisfaction.
> 
> A dog that lacks hardness doesn't work very well under real pressure, however, the preydrive can be used to your advantage and you can make a dog look hard even though he isn't and not everybody can tell the difference.


\\

What's HARDNESS?


----------



## Dave Colborn

Sandra King said:


> I understand what you mean out of context. But I am not so sure what the non-classical stands for. Please elaborate. Prey Aggression explains itself but what do you mean with non-classical?



non classical. Dog appears to view a human as prey. Drools. Stares. No barking. Pretty neat to see. Doesn't really seem to get kicked into defense. doesn't see much as a threat.


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## Joby Becker

I look at hardness again as defined by Raiser...

3 types

Pain hardness.

Decoy hardness.

Handler hardness.

again nothing to do with prey, locked in prey, or being hard to handle....

I am not understanding anything you are trying to say Sandra, and I am trying really *hard*...


----------



## Don Turnipseed

Joby, that is becauseSandra learned dogs from an old timer like myself....before all the fancy terminology. I don't know what you guys are referring to a lot of times and in the end, it is some simple term everyone understood at one time. I do agree with Sandra in that many breeds today are much different that they were originally because they are being bred as single purpose bite dogs. Why, because that is what people want/need to be able to train them.


----------



## Dave Colborn

Don Turnipseed said:


> Joby, that is becauseSandra learned dogs from an old timer like myself....before all the fancy terminology. I don't know what you guys are referring to a lot of times and in the end, it is some simple term everyone understood at one time. I do agree with Sandra in that many breeds today are much different that they were originally because they are being bred as single purpose bite dogs. Why, because that is what people want/need to be able to train them.




Who trains single purpose "bite" dogs?


----------



## Guest

Don Turnipseed said:


> Joby, that is becauseSandra learned dogs from an old timer like myself....before all the fancy terminology. I don't know what you guys are referring to a lot of times and in the end, it is some simple term everyone understood at one time. I do agree with Sandra in that many breeds today are much different that they were originally because they are being bred as single purpose bite dogs. Why, because that is what people want/need to be able to train them.


 
I dont know anyone looking or breeding for SP bite dogs??


----------



## Matt Grosch

is she talking about what people describe as "sporty" dogs? Can compete with prey drive but may not bite someone in real life...?


----------



## Jim Nash

I have never trained a single purpose bite dog or ever been asked to train one . I have however trained plenty of PSDs that track , area search , article search , Narc or bomb detection along with teaching these same dogs to bite . Biting buy the way is the one thing PSDs in the US do the least since it's primary job is that of a locating tool .


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## Sandra King

> Joby, that is becauseSandra learned dogs from an old timer like myself....before all the fancy terminology. I don't know what you guys are referring to a lot of times and in the end, it is some simple term everyone understood at one time.


THANK YOU! You don't have to explain or define hardness or sharpness. Everybody was talking about the same thing and knew exactly what you were talking about. 

It's really hard to explain something if you don't really have the words for it. I can't give them a fancy definition and you know what. I bet you, all of them have already experienced what I mean. Right now, I don't know how else I am supposed to explain it...


----------



## Jim Nash

Sandra King said:


> THANK YOU! You don't have to explain or define hardness or sharpness. Everybody was talking about the same thing and knew exactly what you were talking about.
> 
> It's really hard to explain something if you don't really have the words for it. I can't give them a fancy definition and you know what. I bet you, all of them have already experienced what I mean. Right now, I don't know how else I am supposed to explain it...


How about by describing the dog's behavior , what it looks like , body posture , how it reacts to things , how it vocalizes things in certain situations , to name few .


----------



## Sandra King

Jim Nash said:


> How about by describing the dog's behavior , what it looks like , posture , how it reacts to things , how it vocalizes things in certain situations , to name few .


Some things you can't describe. You have to go out, see and experience them yourself. You as a police dog handler, I'd be seriously surprised if you have not experienced a hard dog. A hard dog is a dog that you can hit with a shovel and he asks for more. It's a dog that doesn't give up. Who hits you so damn hard that you have troubles to keep on your feet. Also called "the real thing" but a hard dog is not to mistake with a handler aggressive dog. 

Does that make more sense?

Gildo vom Koerbelbach was a hard dog. 
Basko vom Flughafenrand was not only hard but also handler aggressive

Just to give you an example.


----------



## Connie Sutherland

Sandra King said:


> A hard dog is a dog that you can hit with a shovel and he asks for more. It's a dog that doesn't give up. Who hits you so damn hard that you have troubles to keep on your feet.


This part doesn't at all relate to "hardness" of a dog to me: _ a dog "Who hits you so damn hard that you have troubles to keep on your feet."_

But JMO. Interesting thread.


----------



## Sandra King

Connie Sutherland said:


> This part doesn't at all relate to "hardness" to me: _ a dog "Who hits you so damn hard that you have troubles to keep on your feet."_
> 
> But JMO. Interesting.


Connie, it's the entire package and what you strive for. 
Where I am from, a hard dog also hit you hard. It's part of the package deal. Either the dog had it or it didn't have it.


----------



## Oluwatobi Odunuga

Joby Becker said:


> Even for a police dog it could be fine...IF the human is the prey..


Serioiusly, does it matter if the dog is 'all prey'?, as long as he can be trained to see suspects as prey and will hold on to his 'prey' regardless of what's going on. If you are talking about dogs that will always look for a sleeve or suit, that's a different matter altogether. I've seen 2 police dogs on a TV show that seemed to be all prey but the suspects IMO had no idea cos they bit just as hard as the 'balanced' dogs.


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## Don Turnipseed

Ok, poor terminology again, It isn't single pupose, it is single focus. Breeding for single focus. Y'all hate show breeders for the most part because they breed with almost all the focus on looks. The difference is they are less open about not caring whether other important parts are missing. Hunters bred for nose....they got the hound....pretty much a single pupose dog. Makes a crap pet or anythng else....but it can track. While there are different types of hounds, they are largley refered to as simply " hounds". All have the same thing in common. Another categorys that gets a blanket class is "pet dogs". New category that is being developed is the sport dog. Soon, the common term will be "sport dogs" rather than, GSD, Mals, or DS. Rather than a breed classification to identify them with, they will just be known as sport dogs....because that is what they will/are devolving to. The breeds used will all be the same except for looks. That is what Sandra is saying.


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## Jim Nash

Don Turnipseed said:


> Ok, poor terminology again, It isn't single pupose, it is single focus. Breeding for single focus. Y'all hate show breeders for the most part because they breed with almost all the focus on looks. The difference is they are less open about not caring whether other important parts are missing. Hunters bred for nose....they got the hound....pretty much a single pupose dog. Makes a crap pet or anythng else....but it can track. While there are different types of hounds, they are largley refered to as simply " hounds". All have the same thing in common. Another categorys that gets a blanket class is "pet dogs". New category that is being developed is the sport dog. Soon, the common term will be "sport dogs" rather than, GSD, Mals, or DS. Rather than a breed classification to identify them with, they will just be known as sport dogs....because that is what they will/are devolving to. The breeds used will all be the same except for looks. That is what Sandra is saying.


Single focus ? We get most of our dogs from breedings with a strong "sport" foundation . They still must and do , track , article search , bomb/narc search , area search , bite , obey commands as well as bite . We get high prey dogs that will do just that as a matter of fact with many high prey dogs it can enhance their other requirements other the bitting .


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## Jim Nash

Sandra King said:


> Some things you can't describe. You have to go out, see and experience them yourself. You as a police dog handler, I'd be seriously surprised if you have not experienced a hard dog. A hard dog is a dog that you can hit with a shovel and he asks for more. It's a dog that doesn't give up. Who hits you so damn hard that you have troubles to keep on your feet. Also called "the real thing" but a hard dog is not to mistake with a handler aggressive dog.
> 
> Does that make more sense?
> 
> Gildo vom Koerbelbach was a hard dog.
> Basko vom Flughafenrand was not only hard but also handler aggressive
> 
> Just to give you an example.


You sure can describe them . What does a hard dog to you look like . What did the last hard dog you saw look like when it was performing a certain task and not just hit hard ? I know soft dogs that can do that with the right training .

What did the dog's tail and ear set look like . Were the ears up or were they back ? Was the tail down and relaxed or up very high and stiff ? How did it walk . Was it steadily forward or hesitant ? What was it's stature ? Did it stand up straight with paws planted firmly on the ground and head high or did it walk on the tips of it's toes or cower with it's head low ? What was the dog focusing on and how did it focus ? Did it make steady eye contact or did it lose focus and start watching a bird or sniff at the ground ignoring what it was supose to focus on ? How did it respond to a correction(hard or soft corrections) ? Did it's body language change after it was corrected ? If so what did that look like ? After a hard correction or any correction ,how did it perform it's task after that ?

If it was supposed to bite a decoy , how did it pursue the decoy ? Was it a steady but fast speed right into the decoy or was it a slow pace and it stutter stepped just before the bite or extremely fast and reckless ? How did it bite ? Was it 3/4 or full ? According to the decoy was it a hard steady presure and did it stay in one spot ? Or did it just bite with it's front teeth and the move up or down or off the sleeve when the decoy started fighting ? Did it stay quiet on the bite or did it make high pitched whining noises ? 

If it was doing civil aggitation how did it bark ? Was it medium to deep in tone with a steady rythmn or was it a high pitched explosive bark ? When confronted how did it react ? Did it pull forward strongly ? Did it retreat ? Or did it just stand there ? As time went on did the dog's behavior change ? If so what changed ? Did it go from upright , focussed and forward to distracted and hestitant ? Did it show alot of teeth while barking ? If it got hurt by accident or on purpose how did it react ? Did it's behaviopr change and it didn't stay on task or did it not react at all or just slightly ? Did it quickly get back on task or did it take sometime ? IF so how much time ?

As you can see there are many things you can draw on to give an example on why you think a dog is hard or not and these are just a few of many behaviors you can descibe to convey how you determined a dog was hard or not . There is also no need to list a whole shitload to get your point across . I just listed alot to show how much there is to draw from in watching a dog's behavior . Everybody has to see these things to make a determination it's not just a gut feeling otherwise you wouldn't even need to see them work . Most don't break it down like I did but the human brain is not the internet either . 

Terms were often made to help simplify things so you didn't need to go in as much detail about these behaviors . That's fine if you are all on the same page with these terms . Problem is nowadays these terms have warped into many different things for different people and it only makes things more difficult when it becomes obvious we aren't communicating on the same level . 

That's the problem some of us are having with you when you refer to a hard dog . The term and it's defintion aren't clear enough we want to know what YOU see when you refer to a hard dog .

The internet sucks because of this . It's so much easier to stand out in a field or scenerio with someone else and discuss this stuff by pointing things out as you see it when the dog performs it . But it can be done with a little effort and some here can and do just that . Others just keep mimicking the same stuff they've heard and that's it .

Another thing the internet does is allow folks who have done a good job of mimicking what they have heard from others who have learned through actual hands on experiance and sound like they know more then they actually do . Mimicking is easy if you have half a brain . I always become suspicious when I hear people spouting term after term and when asked to clarify things they respond with more terms and not an actual description of what they mean and it's because they have never or had limited experiance in seeing the real thing . If you haven't seen it you can't very well describe it but they can sure regurgitate the same set group of words to sound like they know .

That's why I was bummed to miss the Gathering last year and still hope I can make one if it happens again . Then I can really know where others here are coming from and better understand them in future discussions over on this forum .


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## Don Turnipseed

Jim Nash said:


> Single focus ? We get most of our dogs from breedings with a strong "sport" foundation . They still must and do , track , article search , bomb/narc search , area search , bite , obey commands as well as bite . We get high prey dogs that will do just that as a matter of fact with many high prey dogs it can enhance their other requirements other the bitting .


Ok, so your special still and your dogs are not balanced, that is why there are so many rejects. Younhave to reject more than you pick but that doesn't tell you anuything? You are probably picking the more balanced of the bunch and don't know it. And what is o great about detection? It isn't even a long course and many good dogs doing it come from the pound. So what does hard mean to you?


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## Guest

Don Turnipseed said:


> Ok, so your special still and your dogs are not balanced, that is why there are so many rejects. Younhave to reject more than you pick but that doesn't tell you anuything? You are probably picking the more balanced of the bunch and don't know it. And what is o great about detection? It isn't even a long course and many good dogs doing it come from the pound. So what does hard mean to you?


 
I don't think HARD means tough, don't think it means maneater either, or hard headed for that matter, I think and Im just a hobbyist remember that HARD in terms of working dogs is concerned is the ability and manner in which a dog recovers/acts from a correction or bad experience.


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## jeff gamber

Jody Butler said:


> I don't think HARD means tough, don't think it means maneater either, or hard headed for that matter, I think and Im just a hobbyist remember that HARD in terms of working dogs is concerned is the ability and manner in which a dog recovers/acts from a correction or bad experience.


Jody that should be added to Wikipedia. Perfect response...


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## Connie Sutherland

Jody Butler said:


> ... HARD in terms of working dogs is concerned is the ability and manner in which a dog recovers/acts from a correction or bad experience.



Nice.

And this is why I wanted to delete the whole second part of the other definition (the part about "hard-hitting").

Jim was saying very succinctly that it matters that terminology is agreed-upon on the 'net. 

Because without this definition (which I think is pretty common, if not universal, isn't it?), no one can know what someone else means when they describe a dog as hard. 

I know that I don't mean "knocks me off my feet." I mean what Jody says.

How can I learn if I don't know what people mean when they use a descriptive term?


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## Sandra King

I am just talking to my father and he agreed that a hard dog is a certain type of dog. That a hard dog does not feel any pain, has endurance, nerve strength, doesn't give up, recovers fast and has resiliene. Lots of resilience.


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## Debbie Skinner

I like a hard dog as they can take strong corrections, errors and are resiliant in training and life. 

This wouldn't be a dog that is hard to handler for me. 

I think a soft dog would be harder for me to handler as I'd make mistakes and the dog would not recover well and then I'd trade it for a harder model. 

Handler aggressive dogs I consider hard to handle as well. I wouldn't keep a dog for myself that was naturally handler aggressive. 

I've used some dogs in breeding that have learned they can bully the handler, which imo is different as these dogs were mishandled. Of course, it's an educated guess knowing the parents and sibs, etc when I come to the conclusing that a dog has learned this behavior vs it being from nature. Then the proof is in the offspring too.

client just showed up..hope there's no typos.


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## Don Turnipseed

Hard: 1. Resistent to pressure; firm; rigid. Physically or mentally toughened. 

There are also several other definitions of hard but this one goes along with what Joby said.....although, this one,

4. Powerfull: intense; a hard blow.

could be taken as Sandra is using it. 

Myself, I see hard as a mental state. A really good, solid dog that doesn't cur because of a few broken ribs.


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## Jim Nash

Don Turnipseed said:


> Ok, so your special still and your dogs are not balanced, that is why there are so many rejects. Younhave to reject more than you pick but that doesn't tell you anuything? You are probably picking the more balanced of the bunch and don't know it. And what is o great about detection? It isn't even a long course and many good dogs doing it come from the pound. So what does hard mean to you?


I'm not sure what you are talking about when you say reject more then I pick . If you are talking about the the years I've discussed when we use to take donated dogs and looked at over a hundred just to get about 12 good ones they were mainly American bred dogs with the vast majority having NO sport background at all and we stopped that years ago . Those are NOT the type of dogs we are talking about . 

As for the "sport" dogs we get now from Europe out of 12-16 new patrol K9 candidates a class we flunk about 2 on average . Sometimes more on a bad year , sometimes less on a good year . The rest go on to be patrol dogs . 

You were the one saying that they were being bred to be single purpose/focus bite dogs . I pointed out dogs that you say are being bred for this are doing many other things besides biting and gave the examples of tracking , area search , article search , narc/bomb detection and added that biting is the least called upon trait we want that is still a part of it's job . Making it clear that they are bred for and needed for many other things then biting . Now you want to down play there other jobs in detection ? That's just a bad attempt at deflection because you know you made a broad unsubstantiated statement and have no way to back it up . Show me where all these dogs do is bite ? I showed you they do more then that .

It doesn't matter if detection is easy or not the dogs are called upon to do more then bite . For the record Don as someone who use to hunt Labs . That is way easier to do then using the same Lab for detection and those very same type Labs are the best for detection . As a hunter I usually had the ability to let more of my dog's natural abilty to hunt come out with much less intervention or need for control then I do with the same type dog using it for detection work . I'm using that dog's traits as a hunter and manipulating them to hunt something else that is not what they are usually driven for PLUS I need to have more control over the dog when it is hunting for drugs , bombs , evidence , mercury , etc. then when I use to hunt for critters . That added control can be tough but you wouldn't know that because you have never trained a dog for that . The same goes for the "sport" dogs (GSDs , Mals , DS , etc.) we are currently talking about . It would be even more difficult , well lets face it , impossible if all they were bred for was to bite . 

Jody gives the best defintion of what I think is a Hard dog . I'll give a description of a Hard dog I worked and showing that hardness in a few different situations . I get the dog(Mic) out of the squad to do some basic downfield bites , I heel him on lead to the field . He then sees the decoy and starts to forge ahead I tell him to heel and he doesn't I give him a very hard correction on his prong collar or a much higher stim on his ecollar then I would give most dogs in that situation and he falls back into a proper heel . During this correction and after very little changed in his behavior . He still looked confident carrying his head high focussed on the decoy . His tail was carried somewhat relaxed and high . He kept pace we me approaching the decoy with no hesitation in his stride . When I sent the dog on the decoy he went with no hesitation and quickly chased him down . He bit immediately with a deep bite , didn't vocalize or move around . The decoy worked him hard with stick strikes while also falling to the ground wrapping his legs around the dog . The dog's behavior didn't change nor did his bite . 

On another occassion I was using him to search a dark alley for a gun after a shooting . He was new and it wasn't his strong point . He loved searching for man but anything else was boring to him . He became distracted by food , garbage and other dogs in yards . He didn't look stressed , his appearance was that of a confident curious dog . Head high , ears up , tail down and relaxed , the dog would go into dark areas looking around without hestitation . I became frustrated and directed him to search with my hand sweaping it toward the area I wanted him to search while doing so I struck him hard in the front leg with my maglight by accident . He yelped and began limping around the alley . I called him to me and he came limping less as he approached (10 seconds tops) . I checked is leg(30 seconds) seeing it was ok I commanded him to search and he did . Eagerly actually , better then I had ever seen him . With his nose close to the ground and I could hear him inhaling deeply . That was a mistake that turned into a big lesson for me in his hardness and what was going to be needed in his future training .

Those are 2 descriptions of what a particular Hard dog looks to me .


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## Erik Berg

It´s pretty useless to discuss what a term means when everybody has own definitions, judging from sandras reply a "hard" dog could then also be called a "real" dog, a powerfull dog or why not an extreme dog, it´s more the total dog and not just hardness some mean when they say a dog is hard then.

I don´t think a hard dog feels no pain if getting a stone in his head, it´s just that he deals with it better than a softer dog. Also, a dog that is working in drive will tolerate negative stuff better then when his not, like a huntingdog that could go thru fire to get his prey but cry if he drops a heavy apport on his feet when not in the same level of excitment. Many dog that are labeld hard because they can take a correction are probably "made" hard because they are used to get an escalating force of corretions when in a state of high excitement. I mean, how often don´t we hear people say a dog is hard because he wont out when given a hard correction or something similar, is the dog hard or just resilitent to discomfort because of his high excitment I wonder.

But I guess there are a large span between very soft and very hard.


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## Jim Nash

Sandra King said:


> I am just talking to my father and he agreed that a hard dog is a certain type of dog. That a hard dog does not feel any pain, has endurance, nerve strength, doesn't give up, recovers fast and has resiliene. Lots of resilience.


Why did you have to call your dad ? Haven't you seen a hard dog before ? If so what did it look like to you ?


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## Guest

Erik Berg said:


> It´s pretty useless to discuss what a term means when everybody has own definitions, judging from sandras reply a "hard" dog could then also be called a "real" dog, a powerfull dog or why not an extreme dog, it´s more the total dog and not just hardness some mean when they say a dog is hard then.
> 
> I don´t think a hard dog feels no pain if getting a stone in his head, it´s just that he deals with it better than a softer dog. Also, a dog that is working in drive will tolerate negative stuff better then when his not, like a huntingdog that could go thru fire to get his prey but cry if he drops a heavy apport on his feet when not in the same level of excitment. Many dog that are labeld hard because they can take a correction are probably "made" hard because they are used to get an escalating force of corretions when in a state of high excitement. I mean, how often don´t we hear people say a dog is hard because he wont out when given a hard correction or something similar, is the dog hard or just resilitent to discomfort because of his high excitment I wonder.
> 
> But I guess there are a large span between very soft and very hard.


just like a hard correction to you, may be childs play to me! Definitions are needed for conversation, however we need to realize to a degree what one means to one may be a little different to another, but not a total different meaning all together...


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## Guest

Erik Berg said:


> It´s pretty useless to discuss what a term means when everybody has own definitions, judging from sandras reply a "hard" dog could then also be called a "real" dog, a powerfull dog or why not an extreme dog, it´s more the total dog and not just hardness some mean when they say a dog is hard then.
> 
> I don´t think a hard dog feels no pain if getting a stone in his head, it´s just that he deals with it better than a softer dog. Also, a dog that is working in drive will tolerate negative stuff better then when his not, like a huntingdog that could go thru fire to get his prey but cry if he drops a heavy apport on his feet when not in the same level of excitment. Many dog that are labeld hard because they can take a correction are probably "made" hard because they are used to get an escalating force of corretions when in a state of high excitement. I mean, how often don´t we hear people say a dog is hard because he wont out when given a hard correction or something similar, is the dog hard or just resilitent to discomfort because of his high excitment I wonder.
> 
> But I guess there are a large span between very soft and very hard.


and you are talking like in and out of drive, just like some dogs are great in drive and out of drive are afraid of thier own shadow.....excitment and drive gets them through things, I HATE THAT!!!!


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## maggie fraser

Jody Butler said:


> and you are talking like in and out of drive, just like some dogs are great in drive and out of drive are afraid of thier own shadow.....excitment and drive gets them through things, I HATE THAT!!!!


But it is a true statement isn't it without taking it to the extreme of the dog being afraid of it's own shadow ?

The drive and state of arousal a dog cannot switch off, eg. mega prey drive.

Do you suggest a dog not in high drive is oblivious to hard correction or punishment ?


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## Guest

maggie fraser said:


> But it is a true statement isn't it without taking it to the extreme of the dog being afraid of it's own shadow ?
> 
> The drive and state of arousal a dog cannot switch off, eg. mega prey drive.
> 
> Do you suggest a dog not in high drive is oblivious to hard correction or punishment ?


Well, I have seen dogs afraid of their shadow or themselves in a mirror.

I don't think mega prey drive either or turn off...

I have seen both regardless of drive or out of drive a correction means the same, and of course the average dog takes more while in drive.


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## Sandra King

Jim Nash said:


> Why did you have to call your dad ? Haven't you seen a hard dog before ? If so what did it look like to you ?


Jeebus. You think I called him because of that? I call every weekend. However the topic came up because I am trying to explain what the heck I'm talking about and he's got better words plus I was actually wondering if I'm entirely wrong. Again, I can't explain what it looks like. Seriously, I can't go in depth. I don't even have the words of how a tail would look. This goes way into the sientific depths where I really don't want to go and I am not going to sit all day in front of the computer, trying to google the words I am looking for. Sorry... but that is going way too far. 

And yes, I've seen plenty of hard dogs. Nirko, Olko, Orlie, Gildo, Satan... just to name a few. 

From a hundred helpers, possibly two could have handled those kind of dogs. HOWEVER, these dogs were also social and did not have to be locked away when guests came over. 


You want to see what it looks like?
http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/27635/Gildo-vom-Koerbelbach

There are two videos. The first is the BSP, the second video is the worst trial he's ever had. I believe it was in Darmstadt. 
And like Erik said, there is a difference between "made look hard" and actual hard dogs.


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## maggie fraser

Jody Butler said:


> Well, I have seen dogs afraid of their shadow or themselves in a mirror.
> 
> I don't think mega prey drive either or turn off...
> 
> I have seen both regardless of drive or out of drive a correction means the same, and of course the average dog takes more while in drive.


You haven't answered the question. It is not about a correction meaning the same to an average dog.


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## Guest

Sandra King said:


> Jeebus. You think I called him because of that? I call every weekend. However the topic came up because I am trying to explain what the heck I'm talking about and he's got better words plus I was actually wondering if I'm entirely wrong. Again, I can't explain what it looks like. Seriously, I can't go in depth. I don't even have the words of how a tail would look. This goes way into the sientific depths where I really don't want to go and I am not going to sit all day in front of the computer, trying to google the words I am looking for. Sorry... but that is going way too far.
> 
> And yes, I've seen plenty of hard dogs. Nirko, Olko, Orlie, Gildo, Satan... just to name a few.
> 
> From a hundred helpers, possibly two could have handled those kind of dogs. HOWEVER, these dogs were also social and did not have to be locked away when guests came over.
> 
> And like Erik said, there is a difference between "made look hard" and actual hard dogs.


If they are hard they are hard period, whether made or genetic. Now, to make them look hard?? Whos is judging or evaluating, maybe they can fool some, but not all, regardless. Are they helpers or handlers and what about the dogs couldn't they handle?


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## Jim Nash

Sandra King said:


> Jeebus. You think I called him because of that? I call every weekend. However the topic came up because I am trying to explain what the heck I'm talking about and he's got better words plus I was actually wondering if I'm entirely wrong. Again, I can't explain what it looks like. Seriously, I can't go in depth. I don't even have the words of how a tail would look. This goes way into the sientific depths where I really don't want to go and I am not going to sit all day in front of the computer, trying to google the words I am looking for. Sorry... but that is going way too far.
> 
> And yes, I've seen plenty of hard dogs. Nirko, Olko, Orlie, Gildo, Satan... just to name a few.
> 
> From a hundred helpers, possibly two could have handled those kind of dogs. HOWEVER, these dogs were also social and did not have to be locked away when guests came over.
> 
> And like Erik said, there is a difference between "made look hard" and actual hard dogs.


You lead me to believe you are just mimicking what your dad and others like him told you . You may have even watched these dogs in action but I believe you just took others words for it on what was a hard dog without truely seeing what and how the dogs were doing it . Otherwise you could point those characteristics out .


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## Sandra King

Jim Nash said:


> You lead me to believe you are just mimicking what your dad and others like him told you . You may have even watched these dogs in action but I believe you just took others words for it on what was a hard dog without truely seeing what and how the dogs were doing it . Otherwise you could point those characteristics out .


I pointed them out from the very beginning using different words for it. And no, I'm not mimicking what my father and other have told me. I was at every single damn trial, I spent more time on the training field than at home. However, trying to explain these things in a different language to people who pretty much pick everything apart what you say is tiring. 

You try to give me an explanation and definition in German while I am picking apart what you say and then we keep talking!


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## Guest

Sandra King said:


> I pointed them out from the very beginning using different words for it. And no, I'm not mimicking what my father and other have told me. I was at every single damn trial, I spent more time on the training field than at home. However, trying to explain these things in a different language to people who pretty much pick everything apart what you say is tiring.
> 
> You try to give me an explanation and definition in German while I am picking apart what you say and then we keep talking!


 
For Real? LMFAO


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## maggie fraser

Jim Nash said:


> You lead me to believe you are just mimicking what your dad and others like him told you . You may have even watched these dogs in action but I believe you just took others words for it on what was a hard dog without truely seeing what and how the dogs were doing it . Otherwise you could point those characteristics out .


Ever heard of 'inarticulate speech of the heart' ? It was by Van Morrison, good tune. Not saying you are right or wrong by the way.


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## Sandra King

maggie fraser said:


> Ever heard of 'inarticulate speech of the heart' ? It was by Van Morrison, good tune. Not saying you are right or wrong by the way.


There are things you can't explain. You've seen them, you know them but you can't explain it. You just know! It's hard enough to explain it, ON THE INTERNET, in German. TryFdo it in a different language and it's an entire different level.


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## Guest

Sandra King said:


> There are things you can't explain. You've seen them, you know them but you can't explain it. You just know! It's* hard enough* to explain it, ON THE INTERNET, in German. TryFdo it in a different language and it's an entire different level.


 
Thats the hard your talking about then, I see...


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## Jim Nash

Sandra King said:


> I pointed them out from the very beginning using different words for it. And no, I'm not mimicking what my father and other have told me. I was at every single damn trial, I spent more time on the training field than at home. However, trying to explain these things in a different language to people who pretty much pick everything apart what you say is tiring.
> 
> You try to give me an explanation and definition in German while I am picking apart what you say and then we keep talking!



You have proven you have the English skills to describe what a dog is doing . You are copping out . Nothing more , nothing less . 

You also worded a very good deflection with the try doing it in German thing . Your English skills are up to the challenge . Probably even better then mine . You aren't .


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## Sandra King

Jim Nash said:


> You have proven you have the English skills to describe what a dog is doing . You are copping out . Nothing more , nothing less .
> 
> You also worded a very good deflection with the try doing it in German thing . Your English skills are up to the challenge . Probably even better then mine . You aren't .


I am but believe it or not, I do have a limit and I have no idea how I am supposed to describe something to you *that you have to SEE with your own eyes. *

Some things you can't describe and even if I would, if you have never seen it with your own eyes you can't tell the difference anyways because you couldn't tell a hard dog from a dog that looks hard but is made. 

Take a prey driven dog but he lacked hardness and sharpness. A dog that never received less than 96 points in Schutzhund. That dog was made. He looked hard but he wasn't. Everybody was like "Whoa, what a great dog." but what they didn't know is that he was a made dog. They used an electroshocker and a ball to make him sharp. The helper had the ball underneath his chin while the handler pushed the button. As soon as the dog went into aggression he was rewarded with the ball. It went to the point where he looked so intense, stared the helper into the eyes that some helpers got scared. They thought he was for real but he wasn't. He was made. Yet, many couldn't tell the difference. 

A hard dog is something you have to see and experience you can't just simply explain it over the internet because even if you have the definition, if you've never seen it, you wouldn't know if you saw a real or made one anyways.


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## Guest

Sandra King said:


> I am but believe it or not, I do have a limit and I have no idea how I am supposed to describe something to you *that you have to SEE with your own eyes. *
> 
> Some things you can't describe and even if I would, if you have never seen it with your own eyes you can't tell the difference anyways because you couldn't tell a hard dog from a dog that looks hard but is made.
> 
> Take a prey driven dog but he lacked hardness and sharpness. A dog that never received less than 96 points in Schutzhund. That dog was made. He looked hard but he wasn't. Everybody was like "Whoa, what a great dog." but what they didn't know is that he was a made dog. They used an electroshocker and a ball to make him sharp. The helper had the ball underneath his chin while the handler pushed the button. As soon as the dog went into aggression he was rewarded with the ball. It went to the point where he looked so intense, stared the helper into the eyes that some helpers got scared. They thought he was for real but he wasn't. He was made. Yet, many couldn't tell the difference.
> 
> A hard dog is something you have to see and experience you can't just simply explain it over the internet because even if you have the definition, if you've never seen it, you wouldn't know if you saw a real or made one anyways.


No Offense, quit while your ahead.....LOL


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## Jim Nash

Sandra King said:


> I am but believe it or not, I do have a limit and I have no idea how I am supposed to describe something to you *that you have to SEE with your own eyes. *
> 
> Some things you can't describe and even if I would, if you have never seen it with your own eyes you can't tell the difference anyways because you couldn't tell a hard dog from a dog that looks hard but is made.
> 
> Take a prey driven dog but he lacked hardness and sharpness. A dog that never received less than 96 points in Schutzhund. That dog was made. He looked hard but he wasn't. Everybody was like "Whoa, what a great dog." but what they didn't know is that he was a made dog. They used an electroshocker and a ball to make him sharp. The helper had the ball underneath his chin while the handler pushed the button. As soon as the dog went into aggression he was rewarded with the ball. It went to the point where he looked so intense, stared the helper into the eyes that some helpers got scared. They thought he was for real but he wasn't. He was made. Yet, many couldn't tell the difference.
> 
> A hard dog is something you have to see and experience you can't just simply explain it over the internet because even if you have the definition, if you've never seen it, you wouldn't know if you saw a real or made one anyways.


More of the same . You have the ability to describe what you saw . I don't think you can because you haven't seen it yourself . Your Dad talked , you listen but didn't watch closely enough when it was in front of you or maybe it never was in front of you . Either way we will never know .


----------



## Connie Sutherland

Sandra King said:


> ... A hard dog is something you have to see and experience you can't just simply explain it over the internet ...


_
"The dog I saw was hard, but sorry, no definitions. You too have to see the dog with your own eyes; I can never tell you the definition of my description."_

Kinda shuts down a discussion.


----------



## Sandra King

Connie Sutherland said:


> _
> "The dog I saw was hard, but sorry, no definitions. You too have to see the dog with your own eyes; I can never tell you the definition of my description."_
> 
> Kinda shuts down a discussion.


Connie, how would I know if the dog was really hard if I never saw him with my own eyes? 

You HAVE to see a dog with your own eyes. If I told you, "Man, my bitch is the meanest, hardest dog there ever is." give you all kinds of statements and then you come out and you see that she's just an average dog and nowhere near what I told you. 

How many times has that happened? It happens all the time. People not being able to handle an average dog, claiming they are so super mean, aggressive, hard as a rock and then you get there, put a little pressure on the dog and the dog is running. 

In order to understand the breed you still have to go out on the field and see it, experience it, breath it. You can't learn dogs from a computer screen. You may study pedigrees and learn all their names but you don't understand them unless you've seen those dogs with your own eyes and actually *know *them.

And you all know thats the truth.


----------



## Connie Sutherland

In fact, the discussion did kinda get derailed. 

_" .... Your Dad talked , you listen but didn't watch closely enough .... "_


Well, here is a mistake I have made, and I betcha I have made it more times than I realize: I have seen a dog working and heard a knowledgeable person use an adjective, and I mistakenly assumed that every trait I saw (or thought I saw) was part of the package of that one adjective.

Only over time was I able to extricate all the unrelated stuff that I had mentally tossed into the adjective and understand that the term had been used to apply to only one very specific trait or behavior.


----------



## Guest

Sandra King said:


> Connie, how would I know if the dog was really hard if I never saw him with my own eyes?
> 
> You HAVE to see a dog with your own eyes. If I told you, "Man, my bitch is the meanest, hardest dog there ever is." give you all kinds of statements and then you come out and you see that she's just an average dog and nowhere near what I told you.
> 
> How many times has that happened? It happens all the time. People not being able to handle an average dog, claiming they are so super mean, aggressive, hard as a rock and then you get there, put a little pressure on the dog and the dog is running.
> 
> In order to understand the breed you still have to go out on the field and see it, experience it, breath it. You can't learn dogs from a computer screen. You may study pedigrees and learn all their names but you don't understand them unless you've seen those dogs with your own eyes and actually *know *them.
> 
> And you all know thats the truth.


so seeing with your own eyes you can tell if a dog is hard or not, NOT HANDLING IT? Hmmmmm


----------



## Connie Sutherland

Sandra King said:


> Connie, how would I know if the dog was really hard if I never saw him with my own eyes?
> 
> You HAVE to see a dog with your own eyes. *If I told you, "Man, my bitch is the meanest, hardest dog there ever is." give you all kinds of statements and then you come out and you see that she's just an average dog and nowhere near what I told you.*


Then that would just mean that we disagree. Maybe because we failed to define terms (or maybe for other reasons). So ... we disagree.

But you seem to be saying that no one can ever ascribe qualities to a dog for my information ... that I HAVE to go see it myself. Every dog. Always.

So again ... kinda kills any discussion at all.


----------



## Guest

Connie Sutherland said:


> Then that would mean that we disagree. Maybe because we failed to define terms.
> 
> But you seem to be saying that no one can ever ascribe qualities to a dog for my information ... that I HAVE to go see it myself. Every dog. Always.
> 
> So again ... kinda kills any discussion at all.


 
Exactly cause just like defintions, what we SEE in a dog can be a whole different story as well...


----------



## Doug Zaga

Sandra King said:


> Connie, how would I know if the dog was really hard if I never saw him with my own eyes?
> 
> You HAVE to see a dog with your own eyes. If I told you, "Man, my bitch is the meanest, hardest dog there ever is." give you all kinds of statements and then you come out and you see that she's just an average dog and nowhere near what I told you.
> 
> How many times has that happened? It happens all the time. People not being able to handle an average dog, claiming they are so super mean, aggressive, hard as a rock and then you get there, put a little pressure on the dog and the dog is running.
> 
> In order to understand the breed you still have to go out on the field and see it, experience it, breath it. You can't learn dogs from a computer screen. You may study pedigrees and learn all their names but you don't understand them unless you've seen those dogs with your own eyes and actually *know *them.
> 
> And you all know thats the truth.





Connie Sutherland said:


> Then that would just mean that we disagree. Maybe because we *failed to define terms (or maybe for other reasons). So ... we disagree.*
> 
> But you seem to be saying that no one can ever ascribe qualities to a dog for my information ... that I HAVE to go see it myself. Every dog. Always.
> 
> So again ... kinda kills any discussion at all.





Jody Butler said:


> Exactly cause just like defintions, *what we SEE in a dog can be a whole different story as well.*..


 

Are we saying it is subjective most times?


----------



## Jim Nash

Debbie Skinner said:


> I like a hard dog as they can take strong corrections, errors and are resiliant in training and life.
> 
> This wouldn't be a dog that is hard to handler for me.
> 
> I think a soft dog would be harder for me to handler as I'd make mistakes and the dog would not recover well and then I'd trade it for a harder model.
> 
> Handler aggressive dogs I consider hard to handle as well. I wouldn't keep a dog for myself that was naturally handler aggressive.
> 
> client just showed up..hope there's no typos.



I agree my first K9 was Hard(IMO) and as a new handler it took me a bit to figure this out and how it effected my training . It was great in that he could put up with all my confusing , mistimed , misplaced mess up and still work great . It was only tough in learning I had to sometimes resort to stronger methods due to his hardness . Once I figured that out it he was easy to train and it was nice to still have a dog that could put up with my screw ups that I might make later since I'm only human . But overall not what I consider a hard to handle dog .

I said it before about my second K9 Bingo . He made me a better trainer and is what I consider to be a hard to handle dog . Both became very good street K9s but both took different routes to get there .


----------



## Connie Sutherland

_"Are we saying it is subjective most times?"_


That depends. Define "subjective." :lol:


----------



## Jim Nash

Doug Zaga said:


> Are we saying it is subjective most times?


For sure . That's why I want a Gathering . Lets see what we have all been talking about here .


----------



## Guest

Jim Nash said:


> For sure . That's why I want a Gathering . Lets see what we have all been talking about here .


Not many will show....

Then you will here, WOW, he never did that before...

can't go, I gotta spend more time on the WDF, oops mean I gotta work...

Don't have the funds, car broke down.....

Dog isn't feeling well.....


----------



## Doug Zaga

Connie Sutherland said:


> _"Are we saying it is subjective most times?"_
> 
> 
> That depends. Define "subjective." :lol:


<3


----------



## Connie Sutherland

BUT. Surely we can't just say "hard cannot be defined."

What a copout to say "you have to see." Because that can't happen ... I can't go see every dog ever mentioned. We have to have a common set of terms, even if imperfect, or there is no discussion at all.

So if I ask "What do you mean by 'hard'?" you can't say "Sorry ... you have to see it." :lol:


----------



## Sandra King

Connie Sutherland said:


> In fact, the discussion did kinda get derailed.
> 
> _" .... Your Dad talked , you listen but didn't watch closely enough .... "_
> 
> 
> Well, here is a mistake I have made, and I betcha I have made it more times than I realize: I have seen a dog working and heard a knowledgeable person use an adjective, and I mistakenly assumed that every trait I saw (or thought I saw) was part of the package of that one adjective.
> 
> Only over time was I able to extricate all the unrelated stuff that I had mentally tossed into the adjective and understand that the term had been used to apply to only one very specific trait or behavior.


It's a common mistake, we all do it and we'd be lying if we didn't do it at one point. However, my definition is pretty much what a hard dog is to my family. It's a type of dog and not just a single trait. 

Let my try to explain. 

Hardness, Aggression and Sharpness sort of overlap each other. When people say a sharp dog is a nervy dog that isn't all that wrong either because fear can easily lead to aggression and aggression is pretty much sharpness so it is kind of like the truth but not what it's supposed to be by definition but it's not all wrong either. It's sort of like a grey area. However, a hard dog has got to have a natural aggression, pain resistence, resilience and if you mistreat him he doesn't hold it against you. Many people think that a handler aggressive dog is a hard dog. That is not the case. A hard dog can be handler aggressive and hard to handle but he doesn't have to be (to get back on track). 

A hard dog can very much be a dog that is "fuehrig" (really don't know how to translate that word, maybe easy to handle?), live within the family, not going after anyone and everybody. However, those type of dogs had to have certain traits, if they were lacking one of these traits they weren't good enough and got weeded out. He would have never bred a prey monster that lacked hardness and/or sharpness. It's not what he wanted, however he could have easily made a prey monster look like he he has those traits. The dog I was talking about earlier? That never had less than 96 points in Schutzhund...it was one of his dogs but he never bred that dog because it wasn't what he wanted. He sold it and everybody said how stupid he was for selling a "Grenade" of a dog like that. What they didn't know is that the dog was made and not real. And yeah, all he used was an e-collar (teletakt) and a ball. 

I've seen quite a few things. In a certain dog club they used car batteries to make dogs sharp. You don't want to know how many dogs didn't take that kind of compulsion very well. Those dogs were shot later down the road. It's not something many people talk about but that was the German Shepherd Working Dog World 20 years ago. I haven't seen it all but I've seen quite a bit. Could probably write a book about compulsion and the effects it had on dogs.


----------



## Don Turnipseed

Jim Nash said:


> I'm not sure what you are talking about when you say reject more then I pick . If you are talking about the the years I've discussed when we use to take donated dogs and looked at over a hundred just to get about 12 good ones they were mainly American bred dogs with the vast majority having NO sport background at all and we stopped that years ago . Those are NOT the type of dogs we are talking about .
> 
> As for the "sport" dogs we get now from Europe out of 12-16 new patrol K9 candidates a class we flunk about 2 on average . Sometimes more on a bad year , sometimes less on a good year . The rest go on to be patrol dogs .
> 
> You were the one saying that they were being bred to be single purpose/focus bite dogs . I pointed out dogs that you say are being bred for this are doing many other things besides biting and gave the examples of tracking , area search , article search , narc/bomb detection and added that biting is the least called upon trait we want that is still a part of it's job . Making it clear that they are bred for and needed for many other things then biting . Now you want to down play there other jobs in detection ? That's just a bad attempt at deflection because you know you made a broad unsubstantiated statement and have no way to back it up . Show me where all these dogs do is bite ? I showed you they do more then that .
> 
> It doesn't matter if detection is easy or not the dogs are called upon to do more then bite . For the record Don as someone who use to hunt Labs . That is way easier to do then using the same Lab for detection and those very same type Labs are the best for detection . As a hunter I usually had the ability to let more of my dog's natural abilty to hunt come out with much less intervention or need for control then I do with the same type dog using it for detection work . I'm using that dog's traits as a hunter and manipulating them to hunt something else that is not what they are usually driven for PLUS I need to have more control over the dog when it is hunting for drugs , bombs , evidence , mercury , etc. then when I use to hunt for critters . That added control can be tough but you wouldn't know that because you have never trained a dog for that . The same goes for the "sport" dogs (GSDs , Mals , DS , etc.) we are currently talking about . It would be even more difficult , well lets face it , impossible if all they were bred for was to bite .
> 
> Jody gives the best defintion of what I think is a Hard dog . I'll give a description of a Hard dog I worked and showing that hardness in a few different situations . I get the dog(Mic) out of the squad to do some basic downfield bites , I heel him on lead to the field . He then sees the decoy and starts to forge ahead I tell him to heel and he doesn't I give him a very hard correction on his prong collar or a much higher stim on his ecollar then I would give most dogs in that situation and he falls back into a proper heel . During this correction and after very little changed in his behavior . He still looked confident carrying his head high focussed on the decoy . His tail was carried somewhat relaxed and high . He kept pace we me approaching the decoy with no hesitation in his stride . When I sent the dog on the decoy he went with no hesitation and quickly chased him down . He bit immediately with a deep bite , didn't vocalize or move around . The decoy worked him hard with stick strikes while also falling to the ground wrapping his legs around the dog . The dog's behavior didn't change nor did his bite .
> 
> On another occassion I was using him to search a dark alley for a gun after a shooting . He was new and it wasn't his strong point . He loved searching for man but anything else was boring to him . He became distracted by food , garbage and other dogs in yards . He didn't look stressed , his appearance was that of a confident curious dog . Head high , ears up , tail down and relaxed , the dog would go into dark areas looking around without hestitation . I became frustrated and directed him to search with my hand sweaping it toward the area I wanted him to search while doing so I struck him hard in the front leg with my maglight by accident . He yelped and began limping around the alley . I called him to me and he came limping less as he approached (10 seconds tops) . I checked is leg(30 seconds) seeing it was ok I commanded him to search and he did . Eagerly actually , better then I had ever seen him . With his nose close to the ground and I could hear him inhaling deeply . That was a mistake that turned into a big lesson for me in his hardness and what was going to be needed in his future training .
> 
> Those are 2 descriptions of what a particular Hard dog looks to me .


First, I am not putting down detection dogs. I said you could pick a dog up for detection out of the pound any day of the week. But, for some reason, Jim Nash is impressed by the fact that they have dual purpose dogs. Obviously, since any dog can smell, that isn't what makes a dual purpose dogs special...it lies in the fact that you have been able to train a police dog to do it. Yes, when you can do that, it makes them pretty special eh.

As far as the rest of this inane back and foirth, I see how it works. If your breeder delivers you good dogs.....that automatically means what exactly? That dogs everywhere are all good dogs? Go back to the first paragraph and figure out what makes a dual purpose dog special. It isn't that they can do detection....it is that you could get a more civil dog to do it. Yes that is special since the majority are more single purpose dogs. Not rocket science Jim. And because the dogs you get are more dual purpose, that does not change the fact that extreme dogs are being bred for. I don't think anyone, to date, has said all people breed for extreme.....just that it is becoming what is being bred for because people think they want that.


----------



## Guest

Sandra King said:


> It's a common mistake, we all do it and we'd be lying if we didn't do it at one point. However, my definition is pretty much what a hard dog is to my family. It's a type of dog and not just a single trait.
> 
> Let my try to explain.
> 
> Hardness, Aggression and Sharpness sort of overlap each other. When people say a sharp dog is a nervy dog that isn't all that wrong either because fear can easily lead to aggression and aggression is pretty much sharpness so it is kind of like the truth but not what it's supposed to be by definition but it's not all wrong either. It's sort of like a grey area. However, a hard dog has got to have a natural aggression, pain resistence, resilience and if you mistreat him he doesn't hold it against you. Many people think that a handler aggressive dog is a hard dog. That is not the case. A hard dog can be handler aggressive and hard to handle but he doesn't have to be (to get back on track).
> 
> A hard dog can very much be a dog that is "fuehrig" (really don't know how to translate that word, maybe easy to handle?), live within the family, not going after anyone and everybody. However, those type of dogs had to have certain traits, if they were lacking one of these traits they weren't good enough and got weeded out. He would have never bred a prey monster that lacked hardness and/or sharpness. It's not what he wanted, however he could have easily made a prey monster look like he he has those traits. The dog I was talking about earlier? That never had less than 96 points in Schutzhund...it was one of his dogs but he never bred that dog because it wasn't what he wanted. He sold it and everybody said how stupid he was for selling a "Grenade" of a dog like that. What they didn't know is that the dog was made and not real. And yeah, all he used was an e-collar (teletakt) and a ball.
> 
> I've seen quite a few things. In a certain dog club they used car batteries to make dogs sharp. You don't want to know how many dogs didn't take that kind of compulsion very well. Those dogs were shot later down the road. It's not something many people talk about but that was the German Shepherd Working Dog World 20 years ago. I haven't seen it all but I've seen quite a bit. Could probably write a book about compulsion and the effects it had on dogs.


 
Geezus, digging yourseld in a deep hole here....

What is your defintion of HARDNESS, nothing else, no example, just HARDNESS!!


----------



## Sandra King

Jody Butler said:


> Geezus, digging yourseld in a deep hole here....
> 
> What is your defintion of HARDNESS, nothing else, no example, just HARDNESS!!


I GAVE YOU A DEFINITION WHAT HARDNESS AND A HARD DOG IS TO ME! I can't give you more than that! For crying out loud! ](*,)


----------



## Guest

Don Turnipseed said:


> First, I am not putting down detection dogs. I said you could pick a dog up for detection out of the pound any day of the week. But, for some reason, Jim Nash is imp[ressed by the fact that they have dual purpose dogs. Obviously, since any dog can smell, that isn't what makes a dual purpose dogs special...it lies in the fact that you have been able to train a police dog to do it. Yes, when you can do that, it makes them pretty special eh.
> 
> As far as the rest of this inane back and foirth, I see how it works. If your breeder delivers you good dogs.....that automatically means what exactly? That they are all good dogs? Go back to the first paragraph and figure out what makes a dual purpose dog special. It isn't that the can do detection....it is that you could get a more civil dog to do it. Yes that is special since the majority are more single purpose dogs. Not rocket science Jim. And because the dogs you get are more dual purpose, that does not change the fact that extreme dogs are being bred for. I don't think anyone, to date, has said all people breed for extreme.....just that it is becoming what is being bred for because people think they want that.


 
I dont beleive any dog that can smell his ass can do detection regardless of how its taught and for somoene that knows nothing or not his expertise in it and talking about the way you are, you are putting it down exactly


----------



## Connie Sutherland

_"I GAVE YOU A DEFINITION WHAT HARDNESS AND A HARD DOG IS TO ME!"_


Then we have different definitions of "hard," and they are very different in scope.

And now I know that. I learned something.


----------



## Doug Zaga

Sandra King said:


> It's a common mistake, we all do it and we'd be lying if we didn't do it at one point. However, my definition is pretty much what a hard dog is to my family. It's a type of dog and not just a single trait.
> 
> Let my try to explain.
> 
> Hardness, Aggression and Sharpness sort of overlap each other. When people say a sharp dog is a nervy dog that isn't all that wrong either because fear can easily lead to aggression and aggression is pretty much sharpness so it is kind of like the truth but not what it's supposed to be by definition but it's not all wrong either. It's sort of like a grey area. However, *a hard dog has got to have a natural aggression, pain resistence, resilience and if you mistreat him he doesn't hold it against you*. Many people think that a handler aggressive dog is a hard dog. That is not the case. A hard dog can be handler aggressive and hard to handle but he doesn't have to be (to get back on track).
> 
> A hard dog can very much be a dog that is "fuehrig" (really don't know how to translate that word, maybe easy to handle?), live within the family, not going after anyone and everybody. However, those type of dogs had to have certain traits, if they were lacking one of these traits they weren't good enough and got weeded out. He would have never bred a prey monster that lacked hardness and/or sharpness. It's not what he wanted, however he could have easily made a prey monster look like he he has those traits. The dog I was talking about earlier? That never had less than 96 points in Schutzhund...it was one of his dogs but he never bred that dog because it wasn't what he wanted. He sold it and everybody said how stupid he was for selling a "Grenade" of a dog like that. What they didn't know is that the dog was made and not real. And yeah, all he used was an e-collar (teletakt) and a ball.
> 
> I've seen quite a few things. In a certain dog club they used car batteries to make dogs sharp. You don't want to know how many dogs didn't take that kind of compulsion very well. Those dogs were shot later down the road. It's not something many people talk about but that was the German Shepherd Working Dog World 20 years ago. I haven't seen it all but I've seen quite a bit. Could probably write a book about compulsion and the effects it had on dogs.


Ok, is this your definition?


----------



## Guest

Sandra King said:


> I GAVE YOU A DEFINITION WHAT HARDNESS AND A HARD DOG IS TO ME! I can't give you more than that! For crying out loud! ](*,)


 
got it thanks! Watch it don't bang your head to HARD!


----------



## Sandra King

Doug Zaga said:


> Ok, is this your definition?


Yes, I've been preaching that from the very beginning. You can hit a hard dog with a shovel over the head and he wouldn't back down and ask for more! A dog that doesn't back down under pressure. And when you throw the sleeve into one direction and the helper runs in the other, while the prey monster would be dumb enough to go after the sleeve, the hard dog would go for the helper! Without being trained to do so.


----------



## Don Turnipseed

Jody Butler said:


> I dont beleive any dog that can smell his ass can do detection regardless of how its taught and for somoene that knows nothing or not his expertise in it and talking about the way you are, you are putting it down exactly


No I am not. I have read so many posts over the years that clearly stated thier detection dogs came from the pound. Just about any long muzzled dog can do detection. What a 6 week course and you got a detection dog? Once again, what makes a dual purpose dog special is that a "perceived" single purpose dog can do it. Not all of them, just some. If they could all be dual purpose it wouldn't be special enough to point out all the time.


----------



## Guest

Sandra King said:


> Yes, I've been preaching that from the very beginning. You can hit a hard dog with a shovel over the head and he wouldn't back down and ask for more! A dog that doesn't back down under pressure.
> 
> And when you throw the sleeve into one direction and the helper runs in the other, while the prey monster would be dumb enough to go after the sleeve, the hard dog would go for the helper! Without being trained to do so.


 
Isn't there two defintions here?


----------



## maggie fraser

Folks appear to be enjoying the bashing too much.

What constitutes hard ? Forget about hard to handle, but hard specifically ?

Bottom line, someone/something that can take a damn good kicking and get straight back up and give everything they have. And, for the same to apply next time around. That is hard or retarded, thin line.

Folks need to agree on the base line. I would say Sandra is referring to a more balanced tough dog...different to a hard dog.


----------



## Guest

Don Turnipseed said:


> No I am not. I have read so many posts over the years that clearly stated thier detection dogs came from the pound. Just about any long muzzled dog can do detection. What a 6 week course and you got a detection dog? Once again, what makes a dual purpose dog special is that a "perceived" single purpose dog can do it. Not all of them, just some. If they could all be dual purpose it wouldn't be special enough to point out all the time.


No that isn't the case, your just read too much, not every long muzzled dog can do detection and not all from the pound work out either. 

Its just like breeding and everything else, sometimes you only here what they want to tell you or the positive side of things. how many times do you here how hard it was or the different things they had to do to get a dog to work? Or how many times there was a litter of 8 healthy pups, when in fact there were 12? What happened to the others? It messes up their percentages to tell someone they were culled or died.

Then how many times do you here the great things our troops are doing overseas daily? Not much, but you sure as hell here when one screws up!


----------



## Sandra King

Connie Sutherland said:


> _"I GAVE YOU A DEFINITION WHAT HARDNESS AND A HARD DOG IS TO ME!"_
> 
> 
> Then we have different definitions of "hard," and they are very different in scope.
> 
> And now I know that. I learned something.


I could have told you that from the beginning. I've said from the beginning "Where I am from(...)" this is what hard means. Doesn't mean that it stands for the rest of Germany, however, that is what it stands for in my family and when he says this is a hard dog and this isn't a hard dog, I now exactly what he means by that. 

By your definition my bitch is a hard dog. She's resilient, she recovers fast and when you mistreat her she doesn't hold it against you, but she naturally goes for the sleeve and not for the helper.


----------



## Don Turnipseed

Sandra King said:


> Yes, I've been preaching that from the very beginning. You can hit a hard dog with a shovel over the head and he wouldn't back down and ask for more! A dog that doesn't back down under pressure. And when you throw the sleeve into one direction and the helper runs in the other, while the prey monster would be dumb enough to go after the sleeve, the hard dog would go for the helper! Without being trained to do so.


NO! NO! Sandra, while that used to be a hard dog, today that is a "dirty dog" that goes after the person. Keep up girl!


----------



## Guest

maggie fraser said:


> Folks appear to be enjoying the bashing too much.
> 
> What constitutes hard ? Forget about hard to handle, but hard specifically ?
> 
> Bottom line, someone/something that can take a damn good kicking and get straight back up and give everything they have. And, for the same to apply next time around. That is hard or retarded, thin line.
> 
> Folks need to agree on the base line. I would say Sandra is referring to a more balanced tough dog...different to a hard dog.


 
I agrre on the last statement she is describing something else.......different to a hard dog.

As far as bashing, I don't beleive it is, but why is every thread with certain people invloved filled with nonsense. I guess myself included then, but I don't call myself a trainer either, nor have my father to tell me or train me.


----------



## Sandra King

Jody Butler said:


> I agrre on the last statement she is describing something else.......different to a hard dog.
> 
> As far as bashing, I don't beleive it is, but why is every thread with certain people invloved filled with nonsense. I guess myself included then, but I don't call myself a trainer either, nor have my father to tell me or train me.


I never claimed to be a trainer. I am training my dogs but I don't earn money with it. And you know what, I have no issue by saying that most of my knowledge comes from my father. At least I can go out and know what I want and don't want in a dog without getting screwed over by a breeder. 

So what, my father is teaching me? Why shouldn't I take advantage of all that knowledge? I'd be stupid NOT to take advantage of it. 

Our definition is different from yours. Other people have yet a different definition. So what, it's a different definition. No, I don't think well balanced is the right word. I believe it was Erik that had a better word for it. It's a *real *dog!


----------



## Sandra King

Don Turnipseed said:


> NO! NO! Sandra, while that used to be a hard dog, today that is a "dirty dog" that goes after the person. Keep up girl!


Oh yeah, I forgot... how could I... :lol:


----------



## Connie Sutherland

maggie fraser said:


> ... Bottom line, someone/something that can take a damn good kicking and get straight back up and give everything they have. ... Folks need to agree on the base line. I would say Sandra is referring to a more balanced tough dog...different to a hard dog.


Jody offered a good, concise, common definition of "hard," and it's close to yours.



Sandra King said:


> ... By your definition my bitch is a hard dog. She's resilient, she recovers fast and when you mistreat her she doesn't hold it against you, but she naturally goes for the sleeve and not for the helper.


Not my definition, if you mean me. Again, there's stuff added to what Jody and Maggie were saying.

I also don't see bashing. It took a while to get to the fact that Sandra's definition of hard is very different from many people's, and what all is included in it.


----------



## Sandra King

Connie Sutherland said:


> Jody offered a good, concise, common definition of "hard," and it's close to yours.
> 
> 
> 
> Not my definition, if you mean me. Again, there's stuff added to what Jody and Maggie were saying.


Actually, Maggies definition is pretty close to what I've been trying to say. Hit a dog with a shovel over the head and he gets up and asks for more. 



> Bottom line, someone/something that can take a damn good kicking and get straight back up and give everything they have. And, for the same to apply next time around. That is hard or retarded, thin line.


----------



## Jim Nash

Don Turnipseed said:


> First, I am not putting down detection dogs. I said you could pick a dog up for detection out of the pound any day of the week. But, for some reason, Jim Nash is imp[ressed by the fact that they have dual purpose dogs. Obviously, since any dog can smell, that isn't what makes a dual purpose dogs special...it lies in the fact that you have been able to train a police dog to do it. Yes, when you can do that, it makes them pretty special eh.
> 
> As far as the rest of this inane back and foirth, I see how it works. If your breeder delivers you good dogs.....that automatically means what exactly? That they are all good dogs? Go back to the first paragraph and figure out what makes a dual purpose dog special. It isn't that the can do detection....it is that you could get a more civil dog to do it. Yes that is special since the majority are more single purpose dogs. Not rocket science Jim. And because the dogs you get are more dual purpose, that does not change the fact that extreme dogs are being bred for. I don't think anyone, to date, has said all people breed for extreme.....just that it is becoming what is being bred for because people think they want that.


Trying to distract again Don . I addressed you stating that "sport" dogs were being bred to be single purpose/focus bite dogs your criticism of me is just a pathetic attempt to draw attention away from that. This is the quote of yours to be specific :



"Joby, that is becauseSandra learned dogs from an old timer like myself....before all the fancy terminology. I don't know what you guys are referring to a lot of times and in the end, it is some simple term everyone understood at one time. I do agree with Sandra in that many breeds today are much different that they were originally because they are being bred as *single purpose bite dogs.* *Why, because that is what people want/need to be able to train them.*



I told you that was not the case and gave you examples of the dogs we trained and use and that we use them for tracking , narc./bomb detection , etc. along with needing the dog to bite and require the search work way more then the bite . We have and the vast majority of Police K9 trainers in the US have little need for a single purpose/focus bite dog .

Just to clarify some more the vast majority of the dogs I trained were dual purpose (Patrol/Narc.) . We have over 200 PSDs in Minnesota and the vast majority are Dual purpose . 

You are the one who started all this inane back and forth trying to distract things away from the stupid statement you made . 

I am perfectly willing to stay on that subject . I showed you examples that what you said is not the case . Stay away from the inane stuff and stick with the subject . Show me where "sport" dogs are being bred to be single purpose/focus bite dogs when the market for a dog needed to bite in the United States clearly requires that above the bite that same dog is needed more to search for things . That is because the primary purpose of a Police Service Dog in the US is as a LOCATING TOOL . That goes for the patrol dog and single purpose detector dogs . If it was as you say breeders would have bred themselves or will right out of business . 

Once again enough with the inane back and for . Stick with the subject and show me where they are breeding for single purpose/focus bite dogs in validate your statement .


----------



## Jim Nash

Don Turnipseed said:


> No I am not. I have read so many posts over the years that clearly stated thier detection dogs came from the pound. Just about any long muzzled dog can do detection. What a 6 week course and you got a detection dog? Once again, what makes a dual purpose dog special is that a "perceived" single purpose dog can do it. Not all of them, just some. If they could all be dual purpose it wouldn't be special enough to point out all the time.


Wow you really can read into things . Shouldn't be suprised since you have NO experiance in that area whatsoever . Yes you can go to the pound and find a dog for detection . But more often then not it takes numerous trips and having to walk by lots of other dogs just to get one . 

Once again you twisted my informing you that the "sport" dogs we look for and need to bite are also required to do other things and not just be a single purpose/focus bite dog . But then again Don you're just making much a do about nothing to try and hide the fact you made a stupid statement .


----------



## Dave Colborn

Don Turnipseed said:


> Ok, so your special still and your dogs are not balanced, that is why there are so many rejects. Younhave to reject more than you pick but that doesn't tell you anuything? You are probably picking the more balanced of the bunch and don't know it. And what is o great about detection? It isn't even a long course and many good dogs doing it come from the pound. So what does hard mean to you?



Prey high doesn't mean no defense.


----------



## Dave Colborn

Sandra King said:


> Yes, I've been preaching that from the very beginning. You can hit a hard dog with a shovel over the head and he wouldn't back down and ask for more! A dog that doesn't back down under pressure. And when you throw the sleeve into one direction and the helper runs in the other, while the prey monster would be dumb enough to go after the sleeve, the hard dog would go for the helper! Without being trained to do so.



You are assuming a lot here. I know there are dogs that are more defensive and some that are more prey high. I like low defensive threshold and high prey. 

Your bad assumption is that the dog that goes after the "helper" isn't trained to do so. Give me a specific example, and I'll tell you reasonably how a dog can be prey high and have learned to go after the man, without you thinking he learned it. And calling a prey monster dumb, when he is trained to bite equipment is ridiculous.


----------



## Dave Colborn

Don Turnipseed said:


> I have read so many posts over the years that clearly stated thier detection dogs came from the pound.



Thank you for clarifying your experience.


----------



## Dave Colborn

Sandra.

If I have a helper with a shovel, and he continously whacks the dog over the head while the dog is trying to bite the sleeve, and the dog won't quit, is this a hard dog?


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

Sandra,

You made the statement, if you mistreat him [doog], he does't come after you. What do you mean by mistreatment? Are you character izing what was done in terms of compulsion in those clubs you mentioned? With the battery dogs--why were they later shot?


Terrasita


----------



## Don Turnipseed

Jim Nash said:


> Wow you really can read into things . Shouldn't be suprised since you have NO experiance in that area whatsoever . Yes you can go to the pound and find a dog for detection . But more often then not it takes numerous trips and having to walk by lots of other dogs just to get one .
> 
> Once again you twisted my informing you that the "sport" dogs we look for and need to bite are also required to do other things and not just be a single purpose/focus bite dog . But then again Don you're just making much a do about nothing to try and hide the fact you made a stupid statement .


I made a stupid statement....compared to yours Jim. LMAO Perish the thought. I Have been working with tracking and scent dogs most of my life and most of you have no idea what you are doing or the real capabilities of a dogs scenting ability. You are living in a dream world of techno babble. You make a mountain out of a mole hill. I have said this before, but, to enlighten you, a dog can be put on and 6 or 8 hr old track and within two or three feet in either direction, can tell which way something is traveling. Yet you make a big deal out of a scent detection dog. Whoopie.


----------



## Dave Colborn

Don Turnipseed said:


> I made a stupid statement....compared to yours Jim. LMAO Perish the thought. I Have been working with tracking and scent dogs most of my life and most of you have no idea what you are doing or the real capabilities of a dogs scenting ability. You are living in a dream world of techno babble. You make a mountain out of a mole hill. I have said this before, but, to enlighten you, a dog can be put on and 6 or 8 hr old track and within two or three feet in either direction, can tell which way something is traveling. Yet you make a big deal out of a scent detection dog. Whoopie.



Don. train a dog to find something other than a wild animal. It isn't brain surgery, but it takes some talent.


----------



## Sandra King

Dave Colborn said:


> Sandra.
> 
> If I have a helper with a shovel, and he continously whacks the dog over the head while the dog is trying to bite the sleeve, and the dog won't quit, is this a hard dog?


It was an example. No more, no less. 




> You made the statement, if you mistreat him [doog], he does't come after you. What do you mean by mistreatment? Are you character izing what was done in terms of compulsion in those clubs you mentioned? With the battery dogs--why were they later shot?


Mistreating as in unfair. 

Let's just say that guy was a sorry excuse for a human beeing. He shot two dogs because, in his eyes "they weren't hard enough."


----------



## Dave Colborn

If I have a helper with a shovel, and he continously whacks the dog over the head while the dog is trying to bite the sleeve, and the dog won't quit, is this a hard dog?



Sandra King said:


> It was an example. No more, no less.



I am not baiting you, although I am a master. Just curious if that would qualify as a hard dog or if there would be more elements you would require.


----------



## Nicole Stark

I dunno Dave, it looks like you are pretty good at this master baiting or whatever you want to call it.


----------



## Don Turnipseed

LMAO You beat me to it Nicole...but....in all fairness, I think Dave is doing just that. On the other hand...Jim actually believes the BS he is writing.


----------



## Sandra King

Dave Colborn said:


> If I have a helper with a shovel, and he continously whacks the dog over the head while the dog is trying to bite the sleeve, and the dog won't quit, is this a hard dog?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I am not baiting you, although I am a master. Just curious if that would qualify as a hard dog or if there would be more elements you would require.


I hope you don't have a helper that is hitting the dog continously with a shovel. It was an extreme example. And I would not encourage anyone trying it out. I've got a dog right here that got hit with a shovel by his handler and it conflicted quite some damage.


----------



## Dave Colborn

Don Turnipseed said:


> LMAO You beat me to it Nicole...but....in all fairness, I think Dave is doing just that. On the other hand...Jim actually believes the BS he is writing.



There is a touch of seriousness in most of the stuff I post. Most people, as Jack Nicholson would say, "can't handle the truth". I use sarcasm to blunt the truth.


----------



## Dave Colborn

Sandra King said:


> I hope you don't have a helper that is hitting the dog continously with a shovel. It was an extreme example. And I would not encourage anyone trying it out. I've got a dog right here that got hit with a shovel by his handler and it conflicted quite some damage.



Just used your example. I wouldn't hit a dog with a shovel, but for one reason. Coming after me. Then all bets are off and whatever is handy is in. 

but I was just asking a simple question in regards to a hard dog. Is that a hard dog for you, a dog that will take a pummeling to get to a sleeve. please x yes or no and send this back to me via don T.


----------



## Don Turnipseed

Ahhh, A Few Good Men. Love Jack Nicholson. He didn't have a big part, but, he did it well.


----------



## Sandra King

Dave Colborn said:


> Just used your example. I wouldn't hit a dog with a shovel, but for one reason. Coming after me. Then all bets are off and whatever is handy is in.
> 
> but I was just asking a simple question in regards to a hard dog. Is that a hard dog for you, a dog that will take a pummeling to get to a sleeve. please x yes or no and send this back to me via don T.


If he keeps going, without fear, not showing pain, I'd say yes, that it is a hard dog. It's pretty much the definition that Maggie has given earlier. A dog taking a beating, getting back up to keep going with all he's got...


----------



## Guest

Don Turnipseed said:


> LMAO You beat me to it Nicole...but....in all fairness, I think Dave is doing just that. On the other hand...Jim actually believes the BS he is writing.


 
Well Don I must say I have to agree with Jim on many accounts and frankly most of what you say as of late is well I would say BS, but you haven't done shit, and yet you are in every topic of discussion and giving examples and opinions; of which could be warranted, but absolutely no credibility what so ever. 

Train one of your dogs in detection of a particular odor other than human or animal, lets say black powder for instance. Should be easy, tell us how you did it, time, then I will come up with a problem that will be based on time and see how well you do it. Then maybe you will see it isn't as easy as you think. How long would you say it would take? It is that easy right?


----------



## Dave Colborn

Sandra King said:


> If he keeps going, without fear, not showing pain, I'd say yes, that it is a hard dog. It's pretty much the definition that Maggie has given earlier. A dog taking a beating, getting back up to keep going with all he's got...



And doing it all to bite a sleeve. A prey object. What if he runs and won't engage with no sleeve present? What if he is untrained on being man oriented? Less of a dog? or untrained?


----------



## Dave Colborn

Dave Colborn said:


> Don. train a dog to find something other than a wild animal. It isn't brain surgery, but it takes some talent.



Didn't want you to miss this, Don.


----------



## Sandra King

Dave Colborn said:


> And doing it all to bite a sleeve. A prey object. What if he runs and won't engage with no sleeve present? What if he is untrained on being man oriented? Less of a dog? or untrained?


Now that is a valid question. You did not give me that kind of information earlier. Again, a hard dog is a certain type of dog. If the dog only engages like that if the sleeve is present and runs without the sleeve, than obviously there is lacking something and he is not a hard dog at all. 

If you have to train the prey-monster to be man oriented, it's a made dog.


----------



## Don Turnipseed

Jody Butler said:


> Well Don I must say I have to agree with Jim on many accounts and frankly most of what you say as of late is well I would say BS, but you haven't done shit, and yet you are in every topic of discussion and giving examples and opinions; of which could be warranted, but absolutely no credibility what so ever.
> 
> Train one of your dogs in detection of a particular odor other than human or animal, lets say black powder for instance. Should be easy, tell us how you did it, time, then I will come up with a problem that will be based on time and see how well you do it. Then maybe you will see it isn't as easy as you think. How long would you say it would take? It is that easy right?


That's cool Jody. It is your opinion versus mine, How much experience do you really 
think it takes to understand what d dog is capable of? Well, obviously more than you and Jim have or a scent detection dog wouldn't put you on cloud nine of fantasy land. Scent dogs are a dime a dozen....unless they are dual purpose with a police dog. LOL


----------



## Guest

Sandra King said:


> Now that is a valid question. You did not give me that kind of information earlier. Again, a hard dog is a certain type of dog. If the dog only engages like that if the sleeve is present and runs without the sleeve, than obviously there is lacking something and he is not a hard dog at all.
> 
> If you have to train the prey-monster to be man oriented, it's a made dog.


a made dog can't be a hard dog?


----------



## Dave Colborn

Sandra King said:


> Now that is a valid question. You did not give me that kind of information earlier. Again, a hard dog is a certain type of dog. If the dog only engages like that if the sleeve is present and runs without the sleeve, than obviously there is lacking something and he is not a hard dog at all.
> 
> If you have to train the prey-monster to be man oriented, it's a made dog.



There is genetic predisposition and training. Nature vs. Nurture. Nurture starts when the dog leaves the womb. Show me a stud dog without training. They are ALL made dogs.


----------



## Don Turnipseed

Dave Colborn said:


> There is genetic predisposition and training. Nature vs. Nurture. Nurture starts when the dog leaves the womb. Show me a stud dog without training. They are ALL made dogs.


I disagree with that Dave. I have never had to show one of my studs what to do. They were not trained to do it......just did it. Or is this a terminology problem?


----------



## Sandra King

Jody Butler said:


> a made dog can't be a hard dog?


Not if it is lacking hardness. You can make it look like he's got it all but that type of dog will never be able to withstand the same kin of pressure a real dog can withstand. You might overpain the weakness with the preydrive but once you put the dog to the test, it will reveal it's weaknesses.


----------



## Don Turnipseed

Jody Butler said:


> a made dog can't be a hard dog?


Not really. Hard dogs are born, not made.


----------



## Guest

Don Turnipseed said:


> That's cool Jody. It is your opinion versus mine, How much experience do you really
> think it takes to understand what d dog is capable of. Well, obviously more than yopu and Jim have or a scent detection dog wouldn't put you on cloud nine of fantasy land.


 
I don't have a detection dog, but I can train one. 

Let's talk about bite dogs like you said and how fearless yours are and what they can do OR CAN'T! I wish I lived closer, cause I would do like we had talked about and test your dogs but like you said they may not bite a suit, but I wouldn't wear one anyway, I'd put my paycheck on it that they would never engage to begin with. Then again thats my opinion and I am a hobbyist, like you and others talk so much shit about. Your the dogman, trainer, breeder etc. etc. Been doing this for so long you have to know what your doing. LOL

Don, I enjoy or lets say use to enjoy reading your posts when you talked about your expertise and we all know its breeding, well now your talking and into all the other venures and critiquing people that been doing this for years and are very successful at it. And then joke in the manner that they do it. Let's get real, kohler, clicker, choke chain, positive motivation, hell you never trained a dog to do anything have you?? GEEZ


----------



## Guest

Don Turnipseed said:


> Not really.


 
I forgot you know it all. My Bad


----------



## Dave Colborn

Don Turnipseed said:


> I disagree with that Dave. I have never had to show one of my studs what to do. They were not trained to do it......just did it. Or is this a terminology problem?



Ok. So your studs breed. That is natural. What about the work? and this is a family forum. SHouldn't talk about your dogs sexing here.... And you showing one what to do, well, Not a pretty picture....


----------



## Guest

Why in every other thread that Sandra is in she is explaining or trying to explain what she means and nobody has any clue! Or maybe a few LOL, but I was just re-reading this and damn, how long you been doing this? got to be a long time and your father doing this as well and you still can't explain what you mean and the things you talk about or mean contradict most things in the industry today or are different? Is that the language barrier again or just me? Just a question your dog in the videos you posted and what not, I know its a simple video showing basically nothing but do you consider your dog to be low/med/high drive?


----------



## Sandra King

Dave Colborn said:


> There is genetic predisposition and training. Nature vs. Nurture. Nurture starts when the dog leaves the womb. Show me a stud dog without training. They are ALL made dogs.


Now you are nitpicking, Dave. 

There are genetic traits in a dog that can't be trained. Either they are there, or they are not there. It's really tiring trying to explain something to people who really just want to pick everything apart. I'm repeating myself over and over and over and over and over and over again.... it's like beating a dead horse...


----------



## Guest

Sandra King said:


> Now you are nitpicking, Dave.
> 
> There are genetic traits in a dog that can't be trained. Either they are there, or they are not there. It's really tiring trying to explain something to people who really just want to pick everything apart. I'm repeating myself over and over and over and over and over and over again.... it's like beating a dead horse...


You just have no freaking Idea how to answer the questions asked, your clueless, I hate to say, the very sad thing is you can't see it!


----------



## Don Turnipseed

Jody Butler said:


> I don't have a detection dog, but I can train one.
> 
> Let's talk about bite dogs like you said and how fearless yours are and what they can do OR CAN'T! I wish I lived closer, cause I would do like we had talked about and test your dogs but like you said they may not bite a suit, but I wouldn't wear one anyway, I'd put my paycheck on it that they would never engage to begin with. Then again thats my opinion and I am a hobbyist, like you and others talk so much shit about. Your the dogman, trainer, breeder etc. etc. Been doing this for so long you have to know what your doing. LOL
> 
> Don, I enjoy or lets say use to enjoy reading your posts when you talked about your expertise and we all know its breeding, well now your talking and into all the other venures and critiquing people that been doing this for years and are very successful at it. And then joke in the manner that they do it. Let's get real, kohler, clicker, choke chain, positive motivation, hell you never trained a dog to do anything have you?? GEEZ


No, I don't have to train them to hunt. But, I know my dogs, and I wouldn't let you come and do this without a suit. That simple. Can tell you if you threaten them...they will simply move off to a safe distance because you can't threaten them in a big yard. Threaten me, that is another story. You guys would laugh and say the dogs went into avoidance if you tried to threaten them. Threatening me they will not tolerate.. You got to understand the dogs Jody, not what everyone says. Most of you believe there are no "natural protectors" that will protect without specialized training. That is laughable and tells me who I am dealing with.


----------



## Dave Colborn

Sandra King said:


> Now you are nitpicking, Dave.
> 
> There are genetic traits in a dog that can't be trained. Either they are there, or they are not there. It's really tiring trying to explain something to people who really just want to pick everything apart. I'm repeating myself over and over and over and over and over and over again.... it's like beating a dead horse...



Sandra. I agree about beating a dead horse. I disagree with you about genetic traits, as training brings them out. They can't be trained if the trait isn't there, but they can be covered up or ruined, or exploited and made into something wonderful. This is why I say all dogs are made. 

There are stronger and weaker dogs. Stronger and weaker trainers.


----------



## Guest

Don Turnipseed said:


> No, I don't have to train them to hunt. But, I know my dogs, and I wouldn't let you come and do this without a suit. That simple. can tellmyoumif you threaten them...they will simply move off to a safe distance because you can't threaten them in a big yard. Threaten me, that is another story. You guys would laugh and say the dogs went into avoidance if you tried to threaten them. Threatening me they will not tolerate.. You got to understand the dogs Jody, not what everyone says. Most of you believe there are no "natural protectors" that will protect without specialized training. That is laughable and tells me who I am dealing with.


 
I know who I am dealing with as well, thats what makes this amusing, you actually think you know something! Maybe about your dogs, I never said my dog is better in anything nor did I say your dogs were bad or good for that matter, I just think they wouldn ever engage me based of your talks of what your dogs do, regardless of the threat. Too easy! Don, I don't listen to anyone of what they say about dogs or training or anything for that matter, I see for myself and only saying the things Im saying based of your information provided.


----------



## Sandra King

Jody Butler said:


> Why in every other thread that Sandra is in she is explaining or trying to explain what she means and nobody has any clue! Or maybe a few LOL, but I was just re-reading this and damn, how long you been doing this? got to be a long time and your father doing this as well and you still can't explain what you mean and the things you talk about or mean contradict most things in the industry today or are different? Is that the language barrier again or just me? Just a question your dog in the videos you posted and what not, I know its a simple video showing basically nothing but do you consider your dog to be low/med/high drive?



Because the world has changed in the last twenty years. So have the dogs, the terminology and overall training methods. 

My dog is a solid working dog capable of doing the job. She's most definitely not a low drive dog.


----------



## Don Turnipseed

Sandra, trying to take the heat off of you, but, a piece of advice....you have explained what you see as a hard dog is multiple times. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink. You can tell them what you see as a hard dog another dozen times but they will still act as though they didn't understand a thing. Your wrong and that is their bottom line. Rest assured though, there are several meaning to the word hard.


----------



## Sandra King

Dave Colborn said:


> Sandra. I agree about beating a dead horse. I disagree with you about genetic traits, as training brings them out. They can't be trained if the trait isn't there, but they can be covered up or ruined, or exploited and made into something wonderful. This is why I say all dogs are made.
> 
> There are stronger and weaker dogs. Stronger and weaker trainers.


That I actually agree with and if you look at it from that perspective, you are right, then they are all made, however I am pretty sure that you do understand the difference between a real dog and a dog that is "covered up" as you call it. That's exactly what I mean with a "made" dog. I hope that cleared things up a little.


----------



## Guest

Don Turnipseed said:


> Sandra, trying to take the heat off of you, but, a piece of advice....you have explained what you see as a hard dog is multiple times. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink. You can tell them what you see as a hard dog another dozen times but they will still act as though they didn't understand a thing. Your wrong and that is their bottom line. Rest assured though, there are several meaning to the word hard.


 
always good to have a buddy.....

Never said she was wrong either, just asked clearer picture, maybe thats all it was and not clear to me, again im a novice

why would I drink the water? Im not a weak individual and will agree with anything, like I said show me? Tell me? I didn't feel I got that, and it looked the longer it went on the description changed, so be it.


----------



## Guest

Sandra King said:


> That I actually agree with and if you look at it from that perspective, you are right, then they are all made, however I am pretty sure that you do understand the difference between a real dog and a dog that is "covered up" as you call it. That's exactly what I mean with a "made" dog. I hope that cleared things up a little.


 
What's a REAL dog? Can't those be made as well? Can a REAL dog be a hard dog?

I think Hardness of a dog and one defined as being hard is two different things at this point.


----------



## Sandra King

Jody Butler said:


> always good to have a buddy.....
> 
> Never said she was wrong either, just asked clearer picture, maybe thats all it was and not clear to me, again im a novice
> 
> why would I drink the water? Im not a weak individual and will agree with anything, like I said show me? Tell me? I didn't feel I got that, and it looked the longer it went on the description changed, so be it.


Actually, it didn't change. I tried to go a little more into depth of what I mean, since ya'll asked for it. Again, it's a certain type of dog. 

Just look at the "made" dog. It's a literal translation of "gemacht" I don't know how else to say it and thought that it is the propper word. Now I see that Dave actually uses "covered up". To me it mean the same as made and I would have never thought of using "Covered Up." (actually learned something)

I am still learning what kind of words are used in English and that is why I said earlier, while I am rather fluent I do have my limits and the dog world language has a whole lot of different terms. Sometimes I simply translate what I have in my head and that might actually cause the confusion.


----------



## Maren Bell Jones

Jody Butler said:


> I know who I am dealing with as well, thats what makes this amusing, you actually think you know something! Maybe about your dogs, I never said my dog is better in anything nor did I say your dogs were bad or good for that matter, I just think they wouldn ever engage me based of your talks of what your dogs do, regardless of the threat. Too easy! Don, I don't listen to anyone of what they say about dogs or training or anything for that matter, I see for myself and only saying the things Im saying based of your information provided.


Jody, same thing why people didn't show up to the Gathering last year. They say their dog will do this or that or how "real" it is, but when it comes down to it, they won't actually put the dog up, guarantee it. Too much ego in the dog.


----------



## Guest

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Jody, same thing why people didn't show up to the Gathering last year. They say their dog will do this or that or how "real" it is, but when it comes down to it, they won't actually put the dog up, guarantee it. Too much ego in the dog.


 
Oh I know! I think I said the exact same thing earlier in this thread... LOL I never pick a fight for my dog in any type of enviorment. I can hold my own personally and with a dog, regardless of the dog, maybe even a hard one, or was it a real one? Shit Im confused now.


----------



## Dave Colborn

Sandra King said:


> That I actually agree with and if you look at it from that perspective, you are right, then they are all made, however I am pretty sure that you do understand the difference between a real dog and a dog that is "covered up" as you call it. That's exactly what I mean with a "made" dog. I hope that cleared things up a little.



There is no real difference. A dog bites or they don't. They do it through distraction or they don't. 

You agree at the beginning of your post, then reverse by the end.


1. I actually agree. They are all made.

2. Difference between a real dog and a dog that is "covered up" (in the context I used it, a dog that has good traits covered up by bad training is what I was talking about, you missed the point). I think you mean a real dog and a trained dog, but by your first point, you say they are all made.

How about there are genetically stronger dogs and weaker dogs. Same with trainers... Can we agree on that?


----------



## Nicole Stark

Jody Butler said:


> Why in every other thread that Sandra is in she is explaining or trying to explain what she means and nobody has any clue!


I don't know. But I did happen to notice that Chris Mc Donald hasn't been posting as much lately. All I know is I'm not learning much from this back and forth bickering. I want Jeff back. I'd always like it when he'd get into these discussions and start swinging the stick around and then everyone who really didn't belong in the discussional fight would scatter.


----------



## Joby Becker

maggie fraser said:


> Ever heard of 'inarticulate speech of the heart' ? It was by Van Morrison, good tune. Not saying you are right or wrong by the way.


cleanin windows..my fav...


----------



## Guest

Dave Colborn said:


> There is no real difference. A dog bites or they don't. They do it through distraction or they don't.
> 
> You agree at the beginning of your post, then reverse by the end.
> 
> 
> 1. I actually agree. They are all made.
> 
> 2. Difference between a real dog and a dog that is "covered up" (in the context I used it, a dog that has good traits covered up by bad training is what I was talking about, you missed the point). I think you mean a real dog and a trained dog, but by your first point, you say they are all made.
> 
> How about there are genetically stronger dogs and weaker dogs. Same with trainers... Can we agree on that?


 
That being said and if you agree to that, how would you know if that HARD/REAL dog was just that or was he made that way through training? Would it matter at that point if he was showing everything for you to deem him HARD/REAL? I mean without knowing how he was raised and or trained how could you ever make that accurate assesemet?


----------



## Don Turnipseed

Jody Butler said:


> I know who I am dealing with as well, thats what makes this amusing, you actually think you know something! Maybe about your dogs, I never said my dog is better in anything nor did I say your dogs were bad or good for that matter, I just think they wouldn ever engage me based of your talks of what your dogs do, regardless of the threat. Too easy! Don, I don't listen to anyone of what they say about dogs or training or anything for that matter, I see for myself and only saying the things Im saying based of your information provided.


Ok Jody since you keep brining up my experience, Let's hear how many dogs you have trained and titled?


----------



## Maren Bell Jones

Jody Butler said:


> Oh I know! I think I said the exact same thing earlier in this thread... LOL I never pick a fight for my dog in any type of enviorment. I can hold my own personally and with a dog, regardless of the dog, maybe even a hard one, or was it a real one? Shit Im confused now.


Exactly. I hate how common the saying is lately, but the dog "is what it is." They're just dogs and if they suit your purpose, that's all that matters. Why talk them up when you really don't know what they'll do? You might be pleasantly surprised, you might be disappointed (been there done that on both), but you don't know until you test. Maybe because I'm not making money off them? *shrug*


----------



## Dave Colborn

Jody Butler said:


> That being said and if you agree to that, how would you know if that HARD/REAL dog was just that or was he made that way through training? Would it matter at that point if he was showing everything for you to deem him HARD/REAL? I mean without knowing how he was raised and or trained how could you ever make that accurate assesemet?




That is what I was trying to get at. Once out of the womb training has an effect. Long term breeders have an idea, I think when they see the traits show up over an over again. But, hard is hard no matter whether it is trained or genetic, because it is all training based on genetics.


----------



## Guest

Don Turnipseed said:


> Ok Jody since you keep brining up my experience, Let's hear how many dogs you have trained and titled?


 
None Don, I never claimed too Im a novice, and training a dog in detection there is no title....


----------



## Connie Sutherland

Joby Becker said:


> cleanin windows..my fav...


Very very nice. 8) Evocative.


----------



## Sandra King

Okay... you know what... can we just agree to disagree in certain points? To me a covered up dog is a weak dog covered up with good training. 

Its a language barrier. You have an entirely different terminology than I have and it really makes my head hurt and absolutely going on my nerves even trying to get my point across. 

Actually I believe that I did get my point across and that you all just get a kick out of it to pick everything apart.


----------



## Sandra King

Dave Colborn said:


> That is what I was trying to get at. Once out of the womb training has an effect. Long term breeders have an idea, I think when they see the traits show up over an over again. But, hard is hard no matter whether it is trained or genetic, because it is all training based on genetics.


You can't train a dog to be hard. If it's a weak dog it's a weak dog and you can't make it hard because it's not there. I don't know if we are talking about the very same thing just having a different understanding but if you have a weak dog you can't turn it into a hard dog.


----------



## Guest

Sandra King said:


> Okay... you know what... can we just agree to disagree in certain points? To me a covered up dog is a weak dog covered up with good training.
> 
> Its a language barrier. You have an entirely different terminology than I have and it really makes my head hurt and absolutely going on my nerves even trying to get my point across.
> 
> Actually I believe that I did get my point across and that you all just get a kick out of it to pick everything apart.


 
How would you know the dog is covered up if you never saw or were around the dog before? That's as simple as I can put it in English.

Language Barrier, cmon now

Things have to be picked apart, you find out what people are trying to say, or maybe if they are more articulate it isn't necessary..


----------



## Guest

Sandra King said:


> You can't train a dog to be hard. If it's a weak dog it's a weak dog and you can't make it hard because it's not there. I don't know if we are talking about the very same thing just having a different understanding but if you have a weak dog you can't turn it into a hard dog.


 
You mentioned the dog world has been changing for the last 20-25 years, maybe its time to leave some of it behind and open your eyes and ears and listen....


----------



## Sandra King

Jody Butler said:


> How would you know the dog is covered up if you never saw or were around the dog before? That's as simple as I can put it in English.
> 
> Language Barrier, cmon now
> 
> Things have to be picked apart, you find out what people are trying to say, or maybe if they are more articulate it isn't necessary..


You are talking about opening eyes and ears and listening? 

Maybe you should have read what I've been writin over and over again. 

*YOU HAVE TO SEE A DOG AND TO GET TO KNOW IT BEFORE YOU CAN SAY IF IT IS A HARD OR A WEAK, COVERED UP DOG! *

I think I wrote that at least a DOZEN times, Jody.

Gawsh... you are annoying!


----------



## Jim Nash

Don Turnipseed said:


> I made a stupid statement....compared to yours Jim. LMAO Perish the thought. I Have been working with tracking and scent dogs most of my life and most of you have no idea what you are doing or the real capabilities of a dogs scenting ability. You are living in a dream world of techno babble. You make a mountain out of a mole hill. I have said this before, but, to enlighten you, a dog can be put on and 6 or 8 hr old track and within two or three feet in either direction, can tell which way something is traveling. Yet you make a big deal out of a scent detection dog. Whoopie.


You make a stupid statement about single purpose bite dogs . I call you on it and give you examples that that is not the case . You get mad have no response for it so you go off on a tangent about scent work in order to avoid drawing further attention to said statement and in the process make another just as dumb statement about finding dogs in the pound . I point out that silly shit and direct you back to the original stupid statement . You now come back with this funny story and STILL can't come up with a response related to your stunningly misinformed statement about single purpose / focus bite dogs . Got to give you credit you keep trying to get away from that BS you laid down earlier and I don't blame you but its not going to happen . Put on a pair of clean bigboy britches sit down have a drink , think about it man up and try to come up with a response to why you think breeders would breed for a single purpose/focus bite dogs and why we would want them . Also remember you are the one who went off on all these tangents I still want to stay on and shed further light on our original topic of the single purpose bite dog and if you keep forgetting I will keep reminding you . LOL


----------



## Connie Sutherland

Sandra King said:


> Maybe you should have read what I've been writin over and over again.
> 
> *YOU HAVE TO SEE A DOG AND TO GET TO KNOW IT BEFORE YOU CAN SAY IF IT IS A HARD OR A WEAK, COVERED UP DOG! *
> 
> I think I wrote that at least a DOZEN times, Jody.


If you cannot define/describe it, then it's probably better to stop defining/describing it.

If you have to see it, if it can't be put into words, then don't. 

Nothing is gained by re-typing anything a dozen times.

JMO!


----------



## Dave Colborn

Sandra King said:


> You can't train a dog to be hard. If it's a weak dog it's a weak dog and you can't make it hard because it's not there. I don't know if we are talking about the very same thing just having a different understanding but if you have a weak dog you can't turn it into a hard dog.



I can run a puppy at 8 weeks. Kick it like a futbol. (not that I would). Puppy leaves, can't win.

If I don't kick that puppy, and that puppy is trained, I can't run him at all when he's older, and get my leg et up too. 

Your argument would be that the dog with no training but older would eat me without training. This we can only guess at, especially with sport dogs, because they have training.

So at 8 weeks is the puppy weak? 

Yes there are puppies that will never amount to anything. Punt or no punt.


----------



## Sandra King

Connie Sutherland said:


> If you cannot define/describe it, then it's probably better to stop defining/describing it.
> 
> If you have to see it, if it can't be put into words, then don't.
> 
> Nothing is gained by re-typing anything a dozen times.
> 
> JMO!


I have given you a definition over a dozen times. My last post was towards Jodies words: 



> How would you know the dog is covered up if you never saw or were around the dog before? That's as simple as I can put it in English.


----------



## Sandra King

Dave Colborn said:


> I can run a puppy at 8 weeks. Kick it like a futbol. (not that I would). Puppy leaves, can't win.
> 
> If I don't kick that puppy, and that puppy is trained, I can't run him at all when he's older, and get my leg et up too.
> 
> Your argument would be that the dog with no training but older would eat me without training. This we can only guess at, especially with sport dogs, because they have training.
> 
> So at 8 weeks is the puppy weak?
> 
> Yes there are puppies that will never amount to anything. Punt or no punt.


I was never talking about a puppy. I believe we can agree on the fact that a dog doesn't show real aggression until they are at least a year old and to be fully mature they are around four year old. By that time, a lot of dogs are already ruined training wise.

Anyhow, my dogs are waiting and they are more important than this forum. So good night.


----------



## Guest

Sandra King said:


> You are talking about opening eyes and ears and listening?
> 
> Maybe you should have read what I've been writin over and over again.
> 
> *YOU HAVE TO SEE A DOG AND TO GET TO KNOW IT BEFORE YOU CAN SAY IF IT IS A HARD OR A WEAK, COVERED UP DOG! *
> 
> I think I wrote that at least a DOZEN times, Jody.
> 
> Gawsh... you are annoying!


Really, lets take a vote here who is annoying? Cmon Sandra 

If you would read and not get so emotional, that was the point, when seeing the dog, how could you know it has been covered up unless you been there throughout its training life?

Your sad! Really Sad..


----------



## Joby Becker

This thing with Don and his views has gone on forever..It is easily solved...if Don would allow a guy that is experienced in working dogs to come and test them...I cannot afford to go there, otherwise I would do it. I am not an athlete, or a dog guru, but I would do it...

If Don would allow testing, I AM SURE WE could get someone in his area to test his dogs,,,and even let Don define the test, whatever that would be...

END OF STORY...


----------



## Guest

Sandra King said:


> I was never talking about a puppy. I believe we can agree on the fact that a dog doesn't show real aggression until they are at least a year old and to be fully mature they are around four year old. By that time, a lot of dogs are already ruined training wise.
> 
> Anyhow, my dogs are waiting and they are more important than this forum. So good night.


 
They can't be that important, been posting on here quite a bit.....

I'd like to see you with a high drive dog or a REAL/HARD one LMAO


----------



## Guest

Joby Becker said:


> This thing with Don and his views has gone on forever..It is easily solved...if Don would allow a guy that is experienced in working dogs to come and test them...I cannot afford to go there, otherwise I would do it. I am not an athlete, or a dog guru, but I would do it...
> 
> If Don would allow testing, I AM SURE WE could get someone in his area to test his dogs,,,and even let Don define the test, whatever that would be...
> 
> END OF STORY...


Thats all it is Joby is stories!!!! I could give two shits about his dogs.


----------



## Guest

Connie Sutherland said:


> If you cannot define/describe it, then it's probably better to stop defining/describing it.
> 
> If you have to see it, if it can't be put into words, then don't.
> 
> Nothing is gained by re-typing anything a dozen times.
> 
> JMO!


 
Hey this looks familiar, wasn't it from another thread with Sandra? LOL


----------



## Connie Sutherland

Sandra King said:


> ...Anyhow, my dogs are waiting and they are more important than this forum. So good night.


You're right.


----------



## Sandra King

Jody Butler said:


> Really, lets take a vote here who is annoying? Cmon Sandra
> 
> If you would read and not get so emotional, that was the point, when seeing the dog, *how could you know it has been covered up unless you been there throughout its training life?*
> 
> Your sad! Really Sad..


You have got to be kidding me. 

You put the dog to the test... what do you think people do when they are buying dogs to determine whether or not it's the dog they want or not. How do you think the police is weeding out dogs, even though they have not been there throughout it's training life? 

THEY TEST THEM!


----------



## Nicole Stark

Jody Butler said:


> Hey this looks familiar, wasn't it from another thread with Sandra? LOL


HA! That, coming from you. [-X


----------



## Dave Colborn

Sandra King said:


> You have got to be kidding me.
> 
> You put the dog to the test... what do you think people do when they are buying dogs to determine whether or not it's the dog they want or not. How do you think the police is weeding out dogs, even though they have not been there throughout it's training life?
> 
> THEY TEST THEM!




They find what they like, and then, they train them.........


----------



## Guest

Sandra King said:


> You have got to be kidding me.
> 
> You put the dog to the test... what do you think people do when they are buying dogs to determine whether or not it's the dog they want or not. How do you think the police is weeding out dogs, even though they have not been there throughout it's training life?
> 
> THEY TEST THEM!


 

Kidding is not the word, you have tunnel vision and can't get out of your hole!!! I;ve tested a few in my time as well

Ok, the dog TESTS great and no issues at all, goes through training and everyone says the dog is a HARD DOG.....

What they don't realize it was a POS and good training covered it all up.

Geez spent alot of time with the dogs did you...


----------



## Sandra King

Jody Butler said:


> Kidding is not the word, you have tunnel vision and can't get out of your hole!!! I;ve tested a few in my time as well
> 
> Ok, the dog TESTS great and no issues at all, goes through training and everyone says the dog is a HARD DOG.....
> 
> What they don't realize it was a POS and good training covered it all up.
> 
> Geez spent alot of time with the dogs did you...


Nope, than your testing sucks!


----------



## Connie Sutherland

OK! OK! 

I just let the dogs out and looked up. Anyone seen the moon tonight? :-o


----------



## Joby Becker

hardness test...

have dog bite...

blast with cattle prod, several times...see if dogs still stays on bite,,and if he will repeatedly re-engage agitator who holds said cattle prod..
or could be an idiot...


----------



## Connie Sutherland

Sandra, you need to take a break from the thread. 

You were right about going to take care of your dogs.


----------



## Sandra King

Connie Sutherland said:


> OK! OK!
> 
> I just let the dogs out and looked up. Anyone seen the moon tonight? :-o


It's beautiful and actually has a "Hof". The milky round thing aroun the moon, how do you call that?


----------



## Guest

Sandra King said:


> Nope, than your testing sucks!


Maybe, I did say I was a novice, so my assessment of your dog of your videos of being a low drive pet wouldnt be accurate either?

Sandra lets get real here, you know little to nothing, all your info comes from the keyboard and oh yeah your dad, and you dabble in SAR, but really from what I here even the SAR folk don't think so....

Keep it coming if it eases you, MODS, please as long as its directed at me, feel free to allow her to type away, means zero to me, no harm, as long as she feels great about it, but for me being a novice in dogs in general not a specific venue, and her venue being SAR, I bet I can pick a better SAR dog than she.... Any day of the week and even in germany and I can't speak a lick of german.


----------



## Connie Sutherland

Sandra King said:


> It's beautiful and actually has a "Hof". The milky round thing aroun the moon, how do you call that?


I don't know, but I would like to know.

http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f8/full-moon-tonight-21309/#post290773


----------



## Sandra King

Connie Sutherland said:


> Sandra, you need to take a break from the thread.
> 
> You were right about going to take care of your dogs.


Actually, it's just starting to get funny. \\/


----------



## Connie Sutherland

Sandra King said:


> Actually, it's just starting to get funny. \\/



It's not, though.

Come on over here .....

http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f8/full-moon-tonight-21309/#post290773


----------



## Guest

Sandra King said:


> Actually, it's just starting to get funny. \\/


every response from you is what gets it even more funny, but the hilarious thing is you have no clue!


----------



## Sandra King

deleted post


----------



## Bob Scott

I got it! I got it!

A hard dog is only hard for the first day or so after it's dead.
It becomes soft after another few day and down right soggy if the weather is really hot.

Well, my definition makes as much sense as some of the last dozen or so pages I've been reading. 
Terms and their definitions are whatever you want them to be. 
Some will make sense and most will create page after page of I'm right and your wrong while nothing is resolved.


----------



## Guest

Sandra King said:


> You know, Benjamin Allinson has worked my dog and he didn't think that she's a low drive dog. Gregory Doud didn't think that she's low drive either, Bill Dotson didn't think so either... and she's most certainly not a pet and coming from strong working lines.
> 
> They've worked my dog. You didn't.


you right I didn't I said from the video alone, just like you mention things from videos without SEEING the dog, and I know nothing of these guys, and to be honest thats the thing that is the worst at places these days, people are afraid to look another in the eye and tell them the truth!


----------



## Connie Sutherland

Bob Scott said:


> I got it! I got it!
> 
> A hard dog is only hard for the first day or so after it's dead.
> It becomes soft after another few day and down right soggy if the weather is really hot.


Does a full moon affect that? :lol:


----------



## Nicole Stark

Connie Sutherland said:


> OK! OK!
> 
> I just let the dogs out and looked up. Anyone seen the moon tonight? :-o


Connie - the sun never sets in the summer here. But even if the moon were visible there's too many low hanging clouds to see it. So, what does it look like.


----------



## Guest

Nicole Stark said:


> Connie - the sun never sets in the summer here. But even if the moon were visible there's too many low hanging clouds to see it. So, what does it look like.


 
Its dark here and the dogs are howling


----------



## Connie Sutherland

Nicole Stark said:


> Connie - the sun never sets in the summer here. But even if the moon were visible there's too many low hanging clouds to see it. So, what does it look like.


It's crystal clear where I am, but I can't find a good web image.

It does not have the bats like this one ... :lol:

http://earthsky.org/tonight/august-full-moon-named-for-fish-or-grain


----------



## Sandra King

deleted post and warning


----------



## Guest

deleted reply to deleted post


You could of kept my reply and deleted her quote?


----------



## Joby Becker

I see absolutely NO relation to a dogs HARDNESS and his level of prey...unless I am retarded...


----------



## Guest

Joby Becker said:


> I see absolutely NO relation to a dogs HARDNESS and his level of prey...unless I am retarded...


 
But aren't you a little mentally challenged? I thought we discussed that before? I know I am shit...


----------



## Dave Colborn

Joby Becker said:


> I see absolutely NO relation to a dogs HARDNESS and his level of prey...unless I am retarded...




Then we come back to.....What is hard????


----------



## Guest

Dave Colborn said:


> Then we come back to.....What is hard????


 
Can a HARD dog not show HARDNESS?


----------



## Bob Scott

Connie Sutherland said:


> Does a full moon affect that? :lol:


Changes hard dogs into wierdwolves! :grin: :wink:


----------



## Dave Colborn

Jody Butler said:


> Can a HARD dog not show HARDNESS?



Either How much wood can a wood chuck chuck....


Or If the hard dog is old and without viagra then maybe no...


My inner monologue seems to be coming out in typed form.


Bob Scott seems to be thumping melons to figure out hardness, and found they get softer after a few days??


----------



## Nicole Stark

Dave Colborn said:


> Either How much wood can a wood chuck chuck....
> 
> 
> Or If the hard dog is old and without viagra then maybe no...
> 
> 
> My inner monologue seems to be coming out in typed form.
> 
> 
> Bob Scott seems to be thumping melons to figure out hardness, and found they get softer after a few days??


This is good Dave. I knew we could relate pretty well. :twisted:


----------



## Connie Sutherland

Nicole Stark said:


> This is good Dave. I knew we could relate pretty well. :twisted:



I just ran downtown for a giant box of heavy-duty Reynolds Wrap. I will be safe soon.


----------



## Guest

Dave Colborn said:


> Either How much wood can a wood chuck chuck....
> 
> 
> Or If the hard dog is old and without viagra then maybe no...
> 
> 
> My inner monologue seems to be coming out in typed form.
> 
> 
> Bob Scott seems to be thumping melons to figure out hardness, and found they get softer after a few days??


 
:idea:


----------



## Sandra King

Connie Sutherland said:


> I just ran downtown for a giant box of heavy-duty Reynolds Wrap. I will be safe soon.


That was quick...


----------



## Bob Scott

Dave Colborn said:


> Either How much wood can a wood chuck chuck....
> 
> 
> Or If the hard dog is old and without viagra then maybe no...
> 
> 
> My inner monologue seems to be coming out in typed form.
> 
> 
> Bob Scott seems to be thumping melons to figure out hardness, and found they get softer after a few days??



I blame it all on the full moon...and a lack of foil for my hat tonight!! 8-[


----------



## Dave Colborn

Connie Sutherland said:


> I just ran downtown for a giant box of heavy-duty Reynolds Wrap. I will be safe soon.




I don't know how to tell Connie that she is screwed no matter what. the psychic vampires surround her... She is from CA...Maybe I should just tell her to poke a breathing hole in the reynolds wrap....yes, that would be nice.. Like a reserve parachute at 750' AGL... Something to think about while she's burning in....


----------



## Nicole Stark

Bob Scott said:


> I blame it all on the full moon...and a lack of foil for my hat tonight!! 8-[


This hat foil... Is it anything like those windowpanes I once heard about? I'm sure it must be. It really couldn't be anything else.


----------



## Connie Sutherland

Dave Colborn said:


> I don't know how to tell Connie that she is screwed no matter what. the psychic vampires surround her... She is from CA...Maybe I should just tell her to poke a breathing hole in the reynolds wrap....yes, that would be nice.. Like a reserve parachute at 750' AGL... Something to think about while she's burning in....


I can't hear you .... la la la la la la


----------



## Don Turnipseed

Joby Becker said:


> This thing with Don and his views has gone on forever..It is easily solved...if Don would allow a guy that is experienced in working dogs to come and test them...I cannot afford to go there, otherwise I would do it. I am not an athlete, or a dog guru, but I would do it...
> 
> If Don would allow testing, I AM SURE WE could get someone in his area to test his dogs,,,and even let Don define the test, whatever that would be...
> 
> END OF STORY...


How many times do I have to make the offer Joby? Got that T shirt but nobody wants to do it. Any time someone wants to back up the talk, I am always here. Would have thought that was made clear on several occassions.....and these are not even equipment trained dogs..........heck, they aren't even trained dogs. :grin:

And Jody, since you have brought up my experience several times regarding scenting dogs, I asked to validate your own experience....nothing yet!


----------



## Bob Scott

Nicole Stark said:


> This hat foil... Is it anything like those windowpanes I once heard about? I'm sure it must be. It really couldn't be anything else.



......You been watching my house aintcha?! 8-[ 8-[


----------



## Nicole Stark

Don Turnipseed said:


> How many times do I have to make the offer Joby?


Don what's the nearest town out by you. I mean if someone wanted to take a flight in?


----------



## Guest

Don Turnipseed said:


> How many times do I have to make the offer Joby? Got that T shirt but nobody wants to do it. Any time someone wants to back up the talk, I am always here. Would have thought that was made clear on several occassions.....and these are not even equipment trained dogs..........heck, they aren't even trained dogs. :grin:
> 
> And Jody, since you have brought up my experience several times regarding scenting dogs, I asked to validate your own experience....nothing yet!


 
I already stated I was a novice Don, my resume and experience is for my employer not you or anyone else. I never claimed to be anything but a hobbyist Don


----------



## Joby Becker

ok...will work on it..

what county are you in Don?


----------



## Don Turnipseed

Fresno Nicole
Madera County Joby
Figures Jody. I figured you must have trained sme detection dogs you were so defensive about how special a dog with a sense of smell was. 
:grin: :grin:

Just for the record....my dogs have nothing to do with this discussion but the offer for someone to test the dogs has always been an open invitation. It is high time some people learn that there are really dogs in existence with a high protective side without being trained. We can put that fantasy to bed once and for all. :wink:


----------



## Nicole Stark

Don Turnipseed said:


> Fresno Nicole
> We can put that fantasy to bed once and for all. :wink:


Alright Don, Fresno it is. The next time someone makes the offer I will see about getting them out your way. Are you willing to put them up?


----------



## Don Turnipseed

Nicole Stark said:


> Alright Don, Fresno it is. The next time someone makes the offer I will see about getting them out your way. Are you willing to put them up?


You bet Nicole, I got an extra room and always got plently of grub. I will even pick them up at the airport. Love that your willing to call a few bluffs. LOL You know, this is how they got me back to OH to the Nationals in 2007. The spokesperson for the national breed club told me I was full of it and challenged me to bring my dogs and run them against "the best of the breed". I did, we set the highest standard in 22 years and I had the only dogs that could run the track in a three day down pour and even they had to work it. I had the youngest dog to ever run the masters, but, he got disqualified for going after the judge. Oh yes, and I entered my personal dogs in the master venue, not the Jr or Senior.....and they aren't even **** dogs. To me, this is just another one of those challenges. Now, we should get off this frivolity and back to the topic. :grin:


----------



## Connie Sutherland

Don Turnipseed said:


> Now, we should get off this frivolity and back to the topic. :grin:



Who said that? 8-[ 8-[


Yep, good plan.


----------



## Dave Colborn

Don Turnipseed said:


> You bet Nicole, I got an extra room and always got plently of grub. I will even pick them up at the airport. Love that your willing to call a few bluffs. LOL You know, this is how they got me back to OH to the Nationals in 2007. The spokesperson for the national breed club told me I was full of it and challenged me to bring my dogs and run them against "the best of the breed". I did, we set the highest standard in 22 years and I had the only dogs that could run the track in a three day down pour and even they had to work it. I had the youngest dog to ever run the masters, but, he got disqualified for going after the judge. Oh yes, and I entered my personal dogs in the master venue, not the Jr or Senior.....and they aren't even **** dogs. To me, this is just another one of those challenges. Now, we should get off this frivolity and back to the topic. :grin:




I completely missed this post, Don. Does this mean you'll pay for my flight out from Ohio, Nicole?? I can swing this soon I think, not a definite as I have some commitments in my life of leisure, but I am pretty sure I can do it soon.

Don. Can we do it in conjunction with me getting a pup?

I'll bring a suit. Lets get a fair test together so I 

A. Don't get myself hurt. (Oklahoma is my safe word when your killers have me by the neck)
B. Do a fair test of your dogs.
C. Get to go hog hunting with you while I'm there.


----------



## Don Turnipseed

Dave Colborn said:


> I completely missed this post, Don. Does this mean you'll pay for my flight out from Ohio, Nicole?? I can swing this soon I think, not a definite as I have some commitments in my life of leisure, but I am pretty sure I can do it soon.
> 
> Don. Can we do it in conjunction with me getting a pup?
> 
> I'll bring a suit. Lets get a fair test together so I
> 
> A. Don't get myself hurt. (Oklahoma is my safe word when your killers have me by the neck)
> B. Do a fair test of your dogs.
> C. Get to go hog hunting with you while I'm there.


What is a fair test? As I see it, it is claimed dogs won't bite to protect without training. Wth that in mind, seems pretty simple. You threaten me and ignore the dogs. Dogs will be off leash and one at a time. Remind me to tie the other gates shut because they will all be going nuts. Or, what did you have in mind since we are not actually testing the older dogs to see if they may be suitable for training.....just if they will protect me.


----------



## Dave Colborn

Don Turnipseed said:


> What is a fair test? As I see it, it is claimed dogs won't bite to protect without training. Wth that in mind, seems pretty simple. You threaten me and ignore the dogs. Dogs will be off leash and one at a time. Remind me to tie the other gates shut because they will all be going nuts. Or, what did you have in mind since we are not actually testing the older dogs to see if they may be suitable for training.....just if they will protect me.


Sounds fair. And if/when they engage you just back up so I can fight them, I think we'll be in business. That way, you don't get inadvertently bit, and I can see what's going on. It will be my responsibility to keep my hands and face out of their mouths...

Sound fair? Can we do it away from the property, or do you want to do it on the home court?

When are you likely to have pups on the ground, and ready??


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## Bob Scott

A fair test would be on neutral ground. It's not uncommon for a lot of dogs to get aggressive on their own property. 
Off that property most dogs will show a whole different side if they aren't truly protective.


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## Dave Colborn

Bob Scott said:


> A fair test would be on neutral ground. It's not uncommon for a lot of dogs to get aggressive on their own property.
> Off that property most dogs will show a whole different side if they aren't truly protective.



I agree Bob. I think initially Don wanted to do it on his home turf, as he knew his dogs wouldn't have aggressive tendencies at all, elsewhere. I think the idea is to be fair to his dogs. Not saying they are sport dogs or police dogs, but natural protectors on their home turf. he'll have to speak for himself though, to confirm or deny if I am off the mark


----------



## Don Turnipseed

Dave Colborn said:


> Sounds fair. And if/when they engage you just back up so I can fight them, I think we'll be in business. That way, you don't get inadvertently bit, and I can see what's going on. It will be my responsibility to keep my hands and face out of their mouths...
> 
> Sound fair? Can we do it away from the property, or do you want to do it on the home court?
> 
> When are you likely to have pups on the ground, and ready??


Doesn't make any difference to me if it is here or down on the ranch somewhere. Actually, the only times they have gone after people has been somewhere else anyway. Probably because no one has ever come in the yard with them and threatened me. They have gone after people twice here that tried to scare them. 

As far as when pups will be ready, depends entirely on Griff. It is his offspring I am giving to be tested because he has what/ Fifty years of protection dgs behind him as a DDR dog? Those are the pups that we want to see after they are crossed with mine.


----------



## Dave Colborn

Don Turnipseed said:


> Doesn't make any difference to me if it is here or down on the ranch somewhere. Actually, the only times they have gone after people has been somewhere else anyway. Probably because no one has ever come in the yard with them and threatened me. They have gone after people twice here that tried to scare them.
> 
> As far as when pups will be ready, depends entirely on Griff. It is his offspring I am giving to be tested because he has what/ Fifty years of protection dgs behind him as a DDR dog? Those are the pups that we want to see after they are crossed with mine.



Roger that. Maybe we can test there and away from your place. Makes no difference. Nicole, how do you want to book my flight? Do the dates matter? I will try and nail down dates as quick as possible.


----------



## Nicole Stark

Dave Colborn said:


> I completely missed this post, Don. Does this mean you'll pay for my flight out from Ohio, Nicole??


Yes, if you are interested I am willing to do that. Hit me up when you are ready, I'm sure you can figure out how to get in touch with me.


----------



## Peter Cavallaro

i hope you guys aren't being knuckleheads at the expense of the dogs here boys - whats the agenda - get it straight or this could end bad, is this a pissing contest or a genuine interest in seeing the response of untrained dogs natural instincts. u might all have left yr brains at the door when going down this path, i hope u can leave yr egos there too. none of my business but just lookin out for some dogs. take it any way u want.


----------



## Dave Colborn

Peter Cavallaro said:


> i hope you guys aren't being knuckleheads at the expense of the dogs here boys - whats the agenda - get it straight or this could end bad, is this a pissing contest or a genuine interest in seeing the response of untrained dogs natural instincts. u might all have left yr brains at the door when going down this path, i hope u can leave yr egos there too. none of my business but just lookin out for some dogs. take it any way u want.



No dogs will be hurt in the filming of this movie. They'll leave better than they started if they need the building up.

How would you test?


----------



## will fernandez

I cant imagine a trainer like Dave doing anything but giving a fair critique of the dogs. I am also quite sure that Don wants his dogs to succeed. It could be a really great thing for Airedales in the US.


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## Brian Anderson

Dave I aint flying you down here but your welcome to come and test/critique my dogs anytime you want. I am always up for some knowledgeable help and insight!!


----------



## Don Turnipseed

Peter has a very valid point. What we are seeing is if the dogs will go after, and bite a person. No more, no less. The object here is not to see how much the dogs they can take from a person wearing a suit for protection. Dave said I should back out, so as not to get bit, so he could fight the dogs. Not really much point to swinging these dogs around at that point while wearing a suit. Besides, I can't back out because if this triggers them, I am going to have to choke them to get them off. There is no trained recall once they are fired up. The point is simply, will they protect me and bite a person. Im may not be a trainer, but, after many years raising these dogs, to where the look so much alike, and act so much alike, I do have a better idea than most how they react to different things;.

Phenotype without breeding for phenotype









Genotype from three dogs with all different parents.









Aoiredales are l8ijke good bulldogs. They love peopkle. They are clowns. They don't play these games like herders, but, once fired up, they are as serious as a heart attack.


----------



## Dave Colborn

> Peter has a very valid point. What we are seeing is if the dogs will go after, and bite a person. No more, no less. The object here is not to see how much the dogs they can take from a person wearing a suit for protection. Dave said I should back out, so as not to get bit, so he could fight the dogs. Not really much point to swinging these dogs around at that point while wearing a suit. Besides, I can't back out because if this triggers them, I am going to have to choke them to get them off. There is no trained recall once they are fired up. The point is simply, will they protect me and bite a person. Im may not be a trainer, but, after many years raising these dogs, to where the look so much alike, and act so much alike, I do have a better idea than most how they react to different things;


Don, 

I don't want you to go to your house or leave the area while they are biting me, just step back. You have never done bite work with a person, ever, hogs don't count. You don't have any idea what your dogs will do when they get going, biting a man. Since you have Keohlered them, I am doing you a favor by having you back up, as they may be conflicted about biting once they commit since they know obedience around you. The other thing you will put into the mix is you trying to grab the dog and driving them right into me. This is for my safety and to increase the liklihood the dogs will bite. that being said, Make a list of exactly how you want to do it, and I'll tell you what will work and what wont. 

You need to realize you take a huge back seat to me in this endeavor because I am good, experienced, and have a desire for dogs to do well which creates a fairness in me you probably wont get from a lot of guys. I have slightly less gray in my beard than you, but I am WAY better at getting dogs to bite a man, and testing them for that. I agree you know your dogs well in what you have done with them, but you are getting into water you haven't been in before. 

Can you post a link to all the stuff you won in 2007 in OH. That is interesting stuff.


----------



## Bob Scott

will fernandez said:


> I cant imagine a trainer like Dave doing anything but giving a fair critique of the dogs. I am also quite sure that Don wants his dogs to succeed. It could be a really great thing for Airedales in the US.



Ditto on all counts!
It will be especially interesting to compare the differences between Don's present dogs and the Griff crosses in the future.

Don/Dave, is Griff going to be tested also? I realize he's young but Dave's up to doing it correctly.


----------



## Don Turnipseed

Bob, I think testing Griff would be great.


----------



## Dave Colborn

Don Turnipseed said:


> Bob, I think testing Griff would be great.


Sounds good.

Just don't get mad, Don, if I try to get him to bite a towel, tug or sleeve before I put him on a real bite...


----------



## Maren Bell Jones

Don't forget the most important piece of equipment: a video camera.


----------



## maggie fraser

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Don't forget the most important piece of equipment: a video camera.


I'd prefer the audible I think, microphone with running commentary, less intrusion and more open to interpretation. Could keep us all going for years on here, we could take take a vote on the commentator .


----------



## Don Turnipseed

Dave Colborn said:


> Sounds good.
> 
> Just don't get mad, Don, if I try to get him to bite a towel, tug or sleeve before I put him on a real bite...


Dave, Griff, is the one that would fit the term "test". The other dogs is mainly to see if they will bite a person to protect me. What I don't want to see is you trying to shut them down because you have a suit on. They may stop if I step back too far and they think they have control. If you fight them a bit, they will stay in the fight. As far as me getting bit by my own dogs, extremely unlikely. I have gone into a fight with four adult males with slippers and shorts on and they know where I am all the time.....but, the girls make me real nervous because I know from experience they will bite when worked up. Yes, I have heard the phrase that any dog can be run off the field and that isn't the point of this exersize. Griff, test however, you test a dog.

Now, a quick question? How many breeders do you think would participate in a challenge like this on a public forum where the world will know what happens? Dogs won't protect without training? I say that is a crock. Most here think it is true because most of the dogs with trainng won't protect. What is nice about this kind of challenge. Both sides can get some egg on ther face. Has nothing to do with egos, it has to do with something I think is nonsense and we will find out.


----------



## Peter Cavallaro

Dave Colborn said:


> No dogs will be hurt in the filming of this movie. They'll leave better than they started if they need the building up.
> 
> How would you test?


 

if i was underestimating yr integrity i apologise, apart from text on a screen don't know ya'all from adam. alarm bells went off for me with the whole back and forth bravado thing. if you are as expereinced as you say then there is no problem as you will have the dogs welfare foremost, not your determination to prove a point or provide entertainment to bored internet warriors.

hell we all seen too many dogs suffer cause they got caught up in human ego dramas and the bite sports/PPD thing seems to attract a whole lot of clowns.

if it's a pissing contest it would be more productive for you two to leave yr dogs at home and meet and have a charity boxing match with members here betting and all the money going to a pre-designated charity - done that before always works out well.


*How would you test?*

me being the newb here Dave all i would want with this type of dog is to see the dog stimulated at a distance preferably through a fence and just see what comes out, and then in later sessions build from there - the agreement would be that the dog run you off for ANY forward motion or suspicion displayed on its part, wouldn't be bothered trying to get a sleeve bite out of it for weeks and then only if it seemed comfortable with the work.

some dogs really are not that interested in a guy jumping around in a suit which can be falsely interpretted by many sport oriented folk. some dogs just don't see a threat they just see a guy jumping around in a suit and they would just rather leave you to it.


cheers


----------



## maggie fraser

I interpret Don's sentiment as that his dogs will agress and protect Don from harm. That being, if they deem Don is in danger they will kick in and possibly/probably not before, which will not prove an iota to many of the folks on here. Hence, my microphone quip, can't see this test whatever it will be proving a thing really unless Dave is intending to whup the **** out of Don. Just my 0.02.


----------



## Kara Fitzpatrick

adorable pictures. I effin' love airedales.


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## Don Turnipseed

You got to be kidding me Maggie. If my hunting stock protects, and Griff looks good, It is a whole new market for Griff crosses. This is marketing at it's best. Your slipping Maggie. If I end up with egg on my face, well, I never sell dogs here anyway. I am surprised you missed that. Besides, I got a point to make about dogs that will protect naturally.


----------



## Ben Colbert

Peter Cavallaro said:


> *How would you test?*
> 
> me being the newb here Dave all i would want with this type of dog is to see the dog stimulated at a distance preferably through a fence and just see what comes out, and then in later sessions build from there - the agreement would be that the dog run you off for ANY forward motion or suspicion displayed on its part, wouldn't be bothered trying to get a sleeve bite out of it for weeks and then only if it seemed comfortable with the work.


That's not a test. That's training. Training is fine and good but that's not the heart of this bet.

Don asserts that his dogs will protect him from harm without training.


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## Peter Cavallaro

OK u got me, i know no other way then unless you two punch on for real with real intent to maim/kill, each other with no suit and let the blood flow. 

everything else is either simulation or pre-conditioning/training. 

sorry i couldn't help more. be safe boys - think of the dogs.

still think u should have the charity boxing match instead and cut yr losses.



its funny untill someone loses an eye.....and then it becomes hillarious. (my new sig)


----------



## Don Turnipseed

Dave Colborn said:


> I completely missed this post, Don. Does this mean you'll pay for my flight out from Ohio, Nicole?? I can swing this soon I think, not a definite as I have some commitments in my life of leisure, but I am pretty sure I can do it soon.
> 
> Don. Can we do it in conjunction with me getting a pup?
> 
> I'll bring a suit. Lets get a fair test together so I
> 
> A. Don't get myself hurt. (Oklahoma is my safe word when your killers have me by the neck)
> B. Do a fair test of your dogs.
> C. Get to go hog hunting with you while I'm there.


Dave, was just talking to someone on the phone and they told me what a 
" safe word" was. I would have wondered why you were screaming Oklahoma. LOL
By the way, they will back off with a simple "tap out" Three taps in their face should work. :grin:


----------



## Jim Nash

I think if Dave listens to Don he will experiance something very special . Do this right Dave and I predict they will grow a horn from their foreheads and sprout wings . I've heard Don describe his dogs for years now. These aren't just mere dogs we are talking about here . I think you are about to discover the Holy Grail of the working dog world . I can't wait to see the video .


----------



## Dave Colborn

> What I don't want to see is you trying to shut them down because you have a suit on.


OK. Fair enough. We are looking for them to bite, not stay in the fight indefinitely. I will not hurt your dogs, but I will try and deter them from biting. Once they bite, I help them bite better, period, test is over. I'll bring a thin suit.



> As far as me getting bit by my own dogs, extremely unlikely. I have gone into a fight with four adult males with slippers and shorts on and they know where I am all the time


This is why I don't want you too close. If they had an experience where you made them stop biting, or anything negative, they may not engage me with you close. I want to give them the best possible chance of biting.



> Yes, I have heard the phrase that any dog can be run off the field and that isn't the point of this exersize.


This is exactly the point, I just wont take it too far if they turn tail and run.



> Now, a quick question? How many breeders do you think would participate in a challenge like this on a public forum where the world will know what happens? Dogs won't protect without training? I say that is a crock. Most here think it is true because most of the dogs with trainng won't protect. What is nice about this kind of challenge. Both sides can get some egg on ther face. Has nothing to do with egos, it has to do with something I think is nonsense and we will find out.


I don't think many would do it, if any. I think some dogs will protect without training. Few and far between. We'll find out if your dogs will do just that.


----------



## Don Turnipseed

Jim Nash said:


> I think if Dave listens to Don he will experiance something very special . Do this right Dave and I predict they will grow a horn from their foreheads and sprout wings . I've heard Don describe his dogs for years now. These aren't just mere dogs we are talking about here . I think you are about to discover the Holy Grail of the working dog world . I can't wait to see the video .


Holy grail is the pervue of your "Dual Purpose" dogs Jim. Mine, well, they are just plain old "huntin dawgs".

I am really looking forward to meeting Dave and having this little shindig.


----------



## Don Turnipseed

Dave said,


> I'll bring a thin suit.


Dave, I know they are just mere "huntin dawgs" but, they are big terriers. If a terrier thinks your worth biting, they think your worth biting hard. They got huge mouths, and dentistry to go with it.....and a lot more power than dogs in the shepard class......and they are violent shakers.Let's not make the suit to thin just incase they do bite. :wink:


----------



## Ben Colbert

I'm a little curious as how you see this happening Dave.

The idea is that the dog's will protect Don right? Not themselves. I'd expect you could put the right pressure on any dog that's on a tie out to bite you. But what happens if you threaten Don? Will his dogs leap to his defense?


----------



## Jim Nash

Don Turnipseed said:


> Holy grail is the pervue of your "Dual Purpose" dogs Jim. Mine, well, they are just plain old "huntin dawgs".
> 
> I am really looking forward to meeting Dave and having this little shindig.


Me too . Hopefully you aren't all talk right up until the moment of truth . I got a feeling you are a good poker player . 

Yep , I'm very proud of being able to train my "Dual Purpose" dogs to track , article search , building search , search for drugs/bombs and apprehend suspects . 

I found it tougher then training my "huntin dawgs" when I had them . Especially searching in an urban setting . Way easier to be out in the middle of nowhere and just let mainly the dogs' instincts go to work with a little bit of control mixed in . Plus scents a gimme out in the fields and woods . 

I think Dave is going to find out you got a bunch of dogs out there and probably a good representative of it's breed but like others they are still dogs nothing more nothing less .

Like others I was drawn in years ago by your description of them . Then the more you talked the more you contradicted yourself . The kicker was the fiasco with your last 2 dogs you tried to get hunting and the picture of the scared Airedale standing next to the dead bloated hog . You got dogs up in your fortress of solitude Don and if you keep your word we are going to find that out .


----------



## Dave Colborn

Ben Colbert said:


> I'm a little curious as how you see this happening Dave.
> 
> The idea is that the dog's will protect Don right? Not themselves. I'd expect you could put the right pressure on any dog that's on a tie out to bite you. But what happens if you threaten Don? Will his dogs leap to his defense?



Ben, I am really not sure what will happen. They'll either bite or not. I am not a hog, so their targeting has me a little thoughtful. Also, I am a way better training decoy than a trial decoy. I slip into training pretty easy, so I have to get into character and stay there til I see they don't bite. Pressure until they do, or clearly aren't going to.

I think I'll get more out of how they train, than the testing. We'll see though. I have heard Don say some things I don't believe, but I am okay with that as I don't know everything and it's the internet. It makes it better that he is willing to have me out for a test. The one thing I know is that he appears to have the conviction enough to put himself out there.

Hopefully Don and I will get some hog hunting and shooting in while I am there.


----------



## Bob Scott

Don Turnipseed said:


> Dave said,
> 
> 
> Dave, I know they are just mere "huntin dawgs" but, they are big terriers. If a terrier thinks your worth biting, they think your worth biting hard. They got huge mouths, and dentistry to go with it.....and a lot more power than dogs in the shepard class......and they are violent shakers.Let's not make the suit to thin just incase they do bite. :wink:



Dave, being an old terrier man myself I'll have to go with Don on this one.
"IF" they bite for real it's gonna be hard with lots bigger teeth then the average GSD/Mal. Possibly even the pressure of a good bull dog.


----------



## Matt Grosch

dont decoys say the shepherds bite harder than the bullies/etc?


----------



## Dave Colborn

Matt Grosch said:


> dont decoys say the shepherds bite harder than the bullies/etc?



I can hands down say I have been bit harder by malinois. That doesn't mean there aren't hard biters out there, bullies, sharpeis, etc.. I got bit so hard by one mal I went pale and almost passed out, and that was through a hard dog suit.


----------



## Don Turnipseed

Maybe the real concern is which bites people harder. It might also have to do with the difference in mzzles on the different breeds. Good size GSD gets the whole arm or leg. The bully gets mostly a mouth full of suit. I have heard that terriers like these put the screw down when biting, but, a lot of that was from airedale people so I will have to take it with a grain of salt. Muzzle length, diesire to bite people and a few other things go into the equation I am sure. Maybe even the pain tolerance of the one getting bit. I just saw some vid where the guy was screaming...squirming and holding the chair.... and a little blond kept slapping the dog egging him on. Same dog. Maybe if Dave has skinny legs he won't feel anything. LOL


----------



## tracey schneider

Help me out here as im skimming. Bad guy is going to attack owner with one dog out at a time? Out of sight from the other dogs I presume? Bad guy will not aggress towards the dogs or he will? Dog just needs to bite... Even for a second and decoy will turn soft and turn it into a training session? I'm with don in the sense I think more dogs will bite than most, ie fear biter, its the ones that stick with it that are more rare. Bad guy needs to do this right as it can't be done again... How many dogs ya testing? Who picks?


----------



## Don Turnipseed

tracey delin said:


> Help me out here as im skimming. Bad guy is going to attack owner with one dog out at a time? Out of sight from the other dogs I presume? Bad guy will not aggress towards the dogs or he will? Dog just needs to bite... Even for a second and decoy will turn soft and turn it into a training session? I'm with don in the sense I think more dogs will bite than most, ie fear biter, its the ones that stick with it that are more rare. Bad guy needs to do this right as it can't be done again... How many dogs ya testing? Who picks?


Haven't worked the details yet Tracy. Bad guy will attack owner and not aggress toward the dog. That part will work that way. If the dog bites, I have no problem with Dave fighting the dog to see how they react. I am guessing they either back off or keep fighting. I am not sure if fear biting will enter into this since the dogs are not leashed and are not threatened. I talked to Jennifer and told her I wouild fall down and scream like a woman(at least until I saw that vid of wibo). She was of the opinion I would do better being myself and also being aggressive. I think she has a point since this is all make believe. If I fall down and scream the dog may just step back and wonder why I am acting that way. Her suggestion was more "be myself". I think she is right. As far as the dogs being out of view, yes, everyone will say, the other dogs learned from the first and only encounter that they are supposed to either bite or cur. I don't buy that. Doesn't matter how many times a cur watches a dog fight a man, he is still going to cur. I figure we will take some out to the boon docks and Dave can jump out of the bushes. On the other hand, what if the first curs and the second doesn't. I figure we can test them until one bites. :grin: LOL No, seriously all but Wild Bill can be tested. Wild Bill is a PITA and doesn't like me all that much anyway. Actually, I am really curious about two dogs...Griff, the pup....and Odin....and Titan....and Magnum. LOL No I am curious about Odin. He is a brute but, hasn't got a mean bone in his body...but he doesn't have to, he is the king.


----------



## Nicole Stark

Don Turnipseed said:


> It might also have to do with the difference in mzzles on the different breeds.


Skull size is also a contributing factor. Muzzle length? I'm not so sure of that. I've seen what my bull faces do with bone in comparison to the snipes. Big difference.


----------



## Don Turnipseed

Nicole Stark said:


> Skull size is also a contributing factor. Muzzle length? I'm not so sure of that. I've seen what my bull faces do with bone in comparison to the snipes. Big difference.


That is true. Bullbreeds got the power, but, it is the size of the mouth apparently has a lot to do with what a decoy feels. Better power or not, if 75% of hs mouth is full of suit, well, you get what I am saying. Without the suit is another matter and that is just the reality of it.


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## Peter Cavallaro

how much force is required to puncture and rip apart flesh?

i don't think it is a simple equation based on head/jaw size etc, sounds like eugenics, ie simple to understand but false science.

trying to set up reliable measurement process whereby every dog gives a max force each bite would be nigh impossible. the only thing you could measure is how hard that particular dog *wants* to bite, not what the max force it is capable of delivering. the "wantinginess" to bite is an inherited trait - more genotype.

obviously a large jaw will be able to hold more surface area of a sleeve, which is more phenotype.


----------



## Matt Grosch

Nicole Stark said:


> Skull size is also a contributing factor. Muzzle length? I'm not so sure of that. I've seen what my bull faces do with bone in comparison to the snipes. Big difference.




seems to be a lot more about the muzzle length than the skull (since mals bite harder than american bulldogs, presas, cane corsos, etc), and yeah, I think the bullies might get suit whereas the shepherds are like an alligator and actually get the body

but if you gave them a soup bone, im sure the bully is going to crush it better


(but im a pretty novice decoy)


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## Roger Yost

"since mals bite harder than american bulldogs, presas, cane corsos, etc"

They don't really bite harder they are just better at pinching you through a suit .Add that with maybe more desire to hammer a man !!


----------



## Bob Scott

Roger Yost said:


> "since mals bite harder than american bulldogs, presas, cane corsos, etc"
> 
> They don't really bite harder they are just better at pinching you through a suit .Add that with maybe more desire to hammer a man !!


"Desire" is the equalizer! :wink:


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## Brian Anderson

Bob Scott said:


> "Desire" is the equalizer! :wink:


I agree 100% Bob. The intensity and desire is the big equalizer for many dogs.


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## Dave Colborn

Since humans taking the bites are the measuring tool, we are the only important factor. You have to judge how much work a decoy has done with different breeds, pain tolerance, thickness of suit, etc. Look at the Wibo thread for example. One decoy made it look easy, one looked kind of painful. 

Oddly enough it seems breed supporters often say the breed they support is the hardest biter. Has sharper, long teeth, etc. Is bigger, faster, stronger.


Why does it matter though, if they get pain compliance?


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## Matt Grosch

Brian Anderson said:


> I agree 100% Bob. The intensity and desire is the big equalizer for many dogs.




but over 90% of the time between "desire" and the longer muzzle its the shepherd that bites harder?


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## Brian Anderson

Matt Grosch said:


> but over 90% of the time between "desire" and the longer muzzle its the shepherd that bites harder?


Matt I really do think that they ALL bite hard enough to exceed the average mans pain threshold. But when the dog brings a high level of intensity in the fight the intimidation level goes up along with more pressure. its not just the bite its the overall effect of a serious dog committed to fighting you. I don't really prescribe to saying "this breed this or that" usually because it's hard to paint any of them with a broad brush. When your talking about which breed bites hardest. To me its irrelevant as long as they can render enough pain to neutralize a man it works.


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## Matt Grosch

I was responding to the post(s) that said a terrier or bulldog will bite much harder than a shepherd, every decoy ive heard has said the opposite, so here, it is a breed question/issue


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## Don Turnipseed

I only brought up the teeth and the bite strength because Dave said he would bring a light suit. I would rather err on the side of caution because this is suppose to be a fun thing with no one getting hurt. Since these have never had to bite anyone, I have no idea how much desire they will have since they are real people dogs.


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## Matt Grosch

that sounds reasonable, but it just seems if we are going to guess about how hard they would bite, its more logical to assume they would not bite as hard as a shepherd than to assume it would be much harder


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## Don Turnipseed

Matt Grosch said:


> I was responding to the post(s) that said a terrier or bulldog will bite much harder than a shepherd, every decoy ive heard has said the opposite, so here, it is a breed question/issue


Matt, they can all hurt a person without a suit which is what really counts. If you want a good idea of what a dog may be capable of bite wise, look at the molars. Lots of power requires massive molars that can absorb the pressures exerted. Here is a picture of Odin at 7 or 8 mo. Forget the front teeth and look at the molars.


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## Adam Swilling

I still say it's relative to head size/ structure. And I have to agree with Matt; I've worked lots of bullie breeds, malis, Dutchies, GSD's. The GSD, on avaerage, bites harder. The only other breed I've worked that bit like that was a bouvier, and a BIG bouvier at that; had a massive head. The malis/ Dutchies I've worked with exceptionally hard bites ALL had big heads. The Dutchie female I'm working now has a fantastic full, deep, hard bite. She has WAY more desire to bite than my GSD does. The GSD still bites harder, according to every helper who's worked them both. He's got a big melon. I do believe that a 50 pound mali with a high desire to bite and a small, narrow "pin" head will indeed do plenty of damage to an unprotected body part. But no way can it physically bite as hard as a 90 pound GSD with a head like a milk jug. We can into the whole "pound for pound" debate, and I realize it's all subjective in the end. But physical attributes play a large role in things. I've always had an overwhelming desire to dunk a basketball on a regulation goal; I'm 5'7" and 200 pounds. Guess what I can't do?


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## Jim Nash

I've taken bites from alot of dogs . Reading posts about jaw structure and what not all seems to make sence until I look back on the hardest biting dogs I've experianced . In those cases it was the desire in the dog to bite hard from the atheletic Rott to the 60 pound ugly bug eyed GSD that left biggest impressions on me .


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## Don Turnipseed

I believe the strength of jaw has most to do with how the musculature of the jaw is attached to the skull more than the size of the skull.


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## will fernandez

I have found that if you divide the measurement of the width of the skull between the ears into the length of the muzzle from stop to the tip of the nose ..that you will get an accurate reading of the lbs per square inch of the dogs bite.


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## Jim Nash

I believe there are dogs that want to bite the snot out of a human , bitesuit , sleeve . Then there are those who will bite ok on any of the 3 . 
Then there are those that want little to nothing to do with biting those things . 

IME , wether they were "built" to bite hard had less to do with it and their want to bite had much more to do with how hard they bit a human , bitesuit or sleeve .


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## renate kinscheck

Just curious -- how do you "handle" women? 

Renate Kinscheck (female)


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## Connie Sutherland

renate kinscheck said:


> Just curious -- how do you "handle" women?
> 
> Renate Kinscheck (female)



The thread is about _Examples of dogs being hard to handle._

Please don't forget your intro/bio entry.

http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f20/

Thank you.


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## Peter Cavallaro

Renate please hurry do your bio and post your question in its own thread, i won't be commenting on it personally but will look forward to reading others rsponses, which forum to post it in will be a tough one.


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## Matt Grosch

renate kinscheck said:


> Just curious -- how do you "handle" women?
> 
> Renate Kinscheck (female)


 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2i0QWXvOn0&noredirect=1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvKeDr3k7n0


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## Hans Akerbakk

A dog that looks at you like Jack Nickleson from the shining , when he sticks his head thru the door and says here's Johnny.
Maybe a indication that he's going to be hard to handle.


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## Peter Cavallaro

Hans maybe you should just try talking nicely to a dog like that, it's prolly so used to people making assumptions about it based on it's looks when all it really wants is someone to be it's pal


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## Adi Ibrahimbegovic

Type "Ink Zotterhund WUSV" on youtube and you will see the behavior of a dog that should be bred doing a world's schutzhund routine. Of course he was disqualified, but that is an example of a dog being difficult to handle and a breedable stud.

Of course, I subscribe to school of thought that says - to get good puppies you have to breed extreme parents.



Matt Grosch said:


> When the discussion comes up (often about stud dogs, and how they should be 'over the top'), what are things you would see with these dogs?
> 
> Or more specifically, what things would a novice owner see?


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## Hans Akerbakk

Peter I'm sure a big hug from papa bear is all thats needed thanks for the helpful tip, is there anything that needs to be whispered into ears while being hugged to help calm him?


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## Joby Becker

Hans Akerbakk said:


> Peter I'm sure a big hug from papa bear is all thats needed thanks for the helpful tip, is there anything that needs to be whispered into ears while being hugged to help calm him?


yes but first you need to kneel down while you are hugging him, or if you have a bad back, it is best to let him climb up on something like a doghouse first, so you can be at the proper "hugging" height, and not scare him.....put both arms around his neck and whisper sweet little Rottweiler type growls in his ear, and to let him know you care, you should also look him straight into his eyes, so he knows you are sincere at trying to be his friend...and of course smile a big toothy grin the whole time too...that should do it...maybe during the hug you can drop one hand down to pet his belly...


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## Joby Becker

Adi Ibrahimbegovic said:


> Type "Ink Zotterhund WUSV" on youtube and you will see the behavior of a dog that should be bred doing a world's schutzhund routine. Of course he was disqualified, but that is an example of a dog being difficult to handle and a breedable stud.
> 
> Of course, I subscribe to school of thought that says - to get good puppies you have to breed extreme parents.


at first all I saw was this one...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=95GNM7GGKVQ&feature=related

and was thinking to myself, hey I am ready, my C phase is about like that, except my dog bites full....

then I saw the one you probably wanted us to see, which is obviously much better...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tcZgvoUHETU&feature=related

I am sure the handler is a good one, being at that level, so I can see the point of the dog being a harder to control type dog...

I am not a SCH guy persay, or even a GSD guy, but aside from the really shallow biting in the first video, I like him.....


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## Adam Rawlings

That dog is a nut job . However, he made watching a Schutzhund video enjoyable which is hard to do.


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## Peter Cavallaro

Adam Rawlings said:


> *he made watching a Schutzhund video enjoyable which is hard to do*.


 
:-o:-o:-o:-o:-o:lol::lol::lol::lol::grin:


Adam you haven't seen any recent Kerou vids with Katrin handling?, not that hard to watch


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## Adam Rawlings

Peter Cavallaro said:


> :-o:-o:-o:-o:-o:lol::lol::lol::lol::grin:
> 
> 
> Adam you haven't seen any recent Kerou vids with Katrin handling?, not that hard to watch


I watched the video, I didn't even notice the dog until the end.:-\"


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## Peter Cavallaro

in the name of good manners i'm off this


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