# Washing out the working puppy



## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Many have had or have known folks who had puppies that never made the grade. Washing out the prospect early seems to set some in a fit! At what age do you start to weed out the non-workers? :-k


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Howard Gaines III said:


> Many have had or have known folks who had puppies that never made the grade. Washing out the prospect early seems to set some in a fit! At what age do you start to weed out the non-workers? :-k


As soon as you see genetic issues that will prevent the puppy from being 100% reliable as an adult in the job he is intended for.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Agree with Mike. I don't have washouts for what I do because they generally don't make it through the selection process. I also wouldn't depend on socialization and other conditioning in terms of looking at environmental nerves. For me that's what makes a puppy a crap shoot that you may later have to wash out. I've been better off picking them earlier based on a set of selection criteria and generally if they stage, they come back to what they were in the beginning. My male puppy is sensitive to pressure like a lot of herding males year 1-2. Actually, I think he's starting to come out of it but someone else might have washed him out. I'm fairly sure that once he starts to come into his maturity around 28 months, it will pass and he will return to what he was last year. 

T


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## Colin Chin (Sep 20, 2006)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Agree with Mike. I don't have washouts for what I do because they generally don't make it through the selection process. I also wouldn't depend on socialization and other conditioning in terms of looking at environmental nerves. For me that's what makes a puppy a crap shoot that you may later have to wash out. I've been better off picking them earlier based on a set of selection criteria and generally if they stage, they come back to what they were in the beginning. My male puppy is sensitive to pressure like a lot of herding males year 1-2. Actually, I think he's starting to come out of it but someone else might have washed him out. I'm fairly sure that once he starts to come into his maturity around 28 months, it will pass and he will return to what he was last year.
> 
> T


What's your selection method like ? Cheers.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

I like to look at them at 3, 5 and 7 weeks. Mostly, it involves sound, new things in the environment and change of environment. I look at how they relate to me and my handling. I also try them with livestock--at least ducks by 7 weeks and sheep by 10 weeks. My current male is line bred on the sire of my first male and once I saw him with stock, I actually skipped a lot of the above. He was so good on the stock, I gambled on several aspects of the above. For the next GSD, I'd play with grips and retrieve to see how the puppy presented. 

T


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## Colin Chin (Sep 20, 2006)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> I like to look at them at 3, 5 and 7 weeks. Mostly, it involves sound, new things in the environment and change of environment. I look at how they relate to me and my handling. I also try them with livestock--at least ducks by 7 weeks and sheep by 10 weeks. My current male is line bred on the sire of my first male and once I saw him with stock, I actually skipped a lot of the above. He was so good on the stock, I gambled on several aspects of the above. For the next GSD, I'd play with grips and retrieve to see how the puppy presented.
> 
> T


Thanks, T.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

*Gambling*...sheep charge the pup and roll it GOOD! Screwed up for life, was it worth it? How can a pup have the physical or mental ability to deal with livestock stress like that? =; Just wondering T


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Howard Gaines III said:


> *Gambling*...sheep charge the pup and roll it GOOD! Screwed up for life, was it worth it? How can a pup have the physical or mental ability to deal with livestock stress like that? =; Just wondering T


Plain and simple--choose the right dog and test him with the right stock. You wouldn't put a puppy in with fight stock. Howard, I've done instinct tests where I'm testing more than 40 dogs in a day. I know how to choose my stock and I can read the dog/stock interaction/relationship. Agree with you though, some can't and that's where it becomes risky. There's an exercise that I learned from a guy who is considered one of the experts at reading livestock. We had 4 dog/handler teams in the pen. The dog that could keep those sheep off the stock owner in that situation is that little 10 inch dog I was referring to. That's why I gambled on the environmental testing or just didn't care once I saw him in action. Also I was confident of the line and my first dog out of that line was environmentally fearless. I've worked the sire, dam and all sorts of relatives in this pedigree. Last year, I tested him from a distance with the ewes/lambs--far enough away to rescue him if I had to and close enough that he could effect them and move them. He moved them. This is a bloodline that I know extremely well. If this dog is going to be my future stud dog, he has to go through my training and show me what his genetics are--plain and simple. When I'm testing a dog, I know the stock and I've hand selected them. With a young dog [younger than three and especially the corgis] I don't work them on stock I haven't selected. They move in and out of mental phases until they are almost 3 and its too risky. Somewhere on this forum, there is a video of Tony McCallum working one of his 8 week old BCs. That's the age he makes his first selection as well. 

T


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

With that I agree. I had someone the other day call me, she doesn't know stock. Sad to say, she ruined her first dog putting it in with goats and sounds like she was ready to do the same with an upcoming pup. 

Well dogged sheep aren't the issue in my book. Those that are buck ass wild can hurt a young dog and this can happen to the handler. My male BC, Dirk, drove a 1 1/2 old ram into the corner after it tried to speer him. I later sold this dog to the largest dairy farm operation in Delaware. The last I heard, the dog was still whooping Jersey bulls and helping high strung milkers to a "play nice" mode! Dirk was out of Kent Kuykendall's dog.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Not sure why it would end with driving the ram into a corner. Several of my earlier dogs were raised working goats, including my bouv, Khira. I bought them for my first corgi. You have to know the drives and mental strengths/weaknesses of your dog/puppy. Goats will size up a dog and go after it if its weak. You have to be extremely careful. There were very few dogs that could work my goats besides mine. I eventually sold them to an ACD person when it was time to break in a new training set. I actually don't like "well dogged sheep" for a baby puppy--too resistant. I want honest, free moving, non-panic sheep or young lambs. We were at a club meeting and watched several BC teams attempt to bring a set of cattle out of pen--unsuccessfully. Maybe Khira and her brother were 3-4 months old. My friend I put long lines on them and went down to the pen. The looks on their faces when those cows came briskly moving up field. 

I once took on the job of moving five rams through a couple of fields with the goal of penning them. We were almost there when three of them went into kill the dog mode. Rory was dodging hits and hitting noses--almost synchronized. He never gave ground. Finally, they stopped coming after him and I felt I could call him off. I turned to leave, thinking my friend could come finish it. We were walking away when he doubled back going towards the rams with me yelling. He drove them into pen and stood at the gate. I went up and closed the gate and secured it and said that'll do with him looking up at me. I used to laugh that he would never leave a job undone--even if I wanted to and he always had to win. I used to say that a dog like that only comes around once in a lifetime. Tenley Dexter said at a clinic a few months ago "as a handler, you get one GREAT dog." Watching Rhemy as a baby puppy, I thought OMG, how often do you get a second shot.


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## Lisa Brazeau (May 6, 2010)

It took me 2 years to wash out my GSD, we gave it the college try....

He's a kick ass agility dog, though.


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