# Do E-Collars fit anywhere in positive training methods??



## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

I am a fairly inexperienced handler. Especially with real working dogs like an driven Maligator. Though I've come a long way in the last 12 mos trying to figure out what makes my Malinois tick. I've learnt a lot from other more experienced handlers online and in person while watching videos, attending various training classes and seminars. All along incorporating more and more positive techniques into my bitch's routines.

This past Month or so I was able to get a bunch of videos including being lent 2 of Ivan Balabanov's videos (Thanks Joe) Obedience without conflict (Clear Communication and The Game) and Ed Frawley's E-Collar training for Pet owners purchased with a Dogtra 1700 E-collar.

I've been putting the techniques of Ivan's videos into my French Ring training as well. Just so you are aware my French Ring coach doesn't believe in E-Collars and his training methods are based more on Ivan's inductive protocol than compulsion methods. So Ivan's techniques have been quite easy and fluid to understand in this application. 

She has been thriving with the inductive/positive methods especially when she is withheld reward concerning bite-work with the decoy. Mixed in with mild compulsion. i.e. leash pops and gentle leash guidance. 

I'm realizing my dog while extremely over the top driven to work is a fairly, soft dog to physical correction, which is fairly typical with Female Malinois I understand. So an e-collar may not be the best tool to use with her. Especially now since I still don't really have a clear understanding on how or where to utilize it properly. 

The reasoning behind the e-collar is I am physically disabled and I figured it was akin to a long line with out the long line as per hype I've read on other message boards and e-collar sites. So I thought having an e-collar will not only give me options and or freedom of movement but more of the same for the dog as well.

As per Ed Frawley's video I tried to find a working Stim level for her. We got a reaction from her on level 28 but at level 25 even on continuous stim there was no response. But at level 28 she would get really jumpy. The page to me seemed to get the best reaction from her.

For example .. I'll say "sit" (no response) "no"... and stim her with a page and repeat "sit". She gets antsy and almost goes into avoidance behaviour. Remember this is only on page. But to me it still wasn't what I expected after reading all the hype surrounding e-collar use itself. 

I really thought/hoped that the e-collar DVD would fill in that void that I am missing. But I feel left just wanting something more to sink my teeth into from a working and training stand point with the e-collar. Things are still not super clear about it's use still. Especially with how my dog reacts to it

I'd still hope to use the e-collar as a tool for certain things. i.e long recalls while hiking, digging holes in the garden or biting sheep during herding instruction. If any of you could pass some help on how best to utilize this tool, while still using more positive techniques I'd really appreciate it.


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

This is something that must be shown, try and get with someone that is proficient at using it. BTW Ivan uses the ecollar, as well as most other well known trainers, even if they deny it.  

I have never seen a dog NOT display a little avoidance behavior at first. One positive is the correction is a lot less personal with the ecollar than it is with a Pinch or choke, can work better with more handler sensative dogs.


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## Chris Wild (Jan 30, 2008)

You might find Lou Castle's articles on ecollar training helpful:

http://www.loucastle.com/articles.htm

He's one of the premier ecollar trainers in the country and he's also a working dog person. The "low stim" methods of ecollar training such as he promotes would be much more geared toward an overall positive training methodology than the old school "shock em' 'til they scream" type ecollar training still used by many.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Kyle is right, Ivan uses the ecollar.

You might try a different brand of collar. The stim from each brand is a little different, she may react better with a different type of collar.

I use an ecollar on one of my Malinois for exactly the reason Kyle mentioned. She can be a little sensitive to me, and the collar removes the personal aspect of the correction. It also makes it much easier to correct her when she's 40 or 50 yards away from me


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## Julie Ann Alvarez (Aug 4, 2007)

Geoff,

I am almost disabled and I use the same collar on my AB and will soon be putting my GSD pup into one for the same reason (plus I think it is just smarter quicker corrections and timing is everything).

I think everyone's replys are great- I just wanted to add that the collar may not be fitted tight enough. It should fit snug, I always put the stems on the back of the neck where there is more flesh/muscle and I always check it on myself to make sure we have charge.

I use about 25 for the OB, but have turned it up a tad now and then when my boy has been over the top. When I have my collar turned up during protection I only use the nic button ane we usually don't go above 28 (anything more isn't really necessary IMHO).

I would suggest having a private session with some one who actually uses the collar for training regularly if possible or at least having a lenghty conversation with one of these people. 

Good Luck,

Julie


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## Al Curbow (Mar 27, 2006)

The 2nd biggest mistake i ever made was not having it fit properly. It's mucho important that a good fit is in place first! My dogtra 2 dog collar (the kind with the toggle, not the 2 different colored buttons) doesn't really start to stim till it's on about 15. Lou Castle's method really works good. I printed his method out and did a few dry runs with guiding the dog into the command and all that and the results are really good. The first biggest mistake i made was trying to find my females level but didn't switch the toggle over to the color of the collar she had on, i kept turning it up (all the way to about 80) and messing with it till i figured something was wrong and i come aroung the corner and there's one of my males curled up by the corner of the house, he was getting it the entire time. I felt about as bad as you can feel. I tell this story so maybe you won't make the same mistake,
AL


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## Matthew Grubb (Nov 16, 2007)

Geoff… do you get the same avoidance reaction to the stim as you did with the page? Some dogs (mine included) can be real sensitive to the page vibrations to the point of shutting down but are finbe with the stim itself.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Matthew, I am not Geoff, but I have had that exact same experience with the pager feature on my female. FWIW, her stim level is around 20 on a Dogtra 2000NCP.


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## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

Geoff Empey said:


> This past Month or so I was able to get a bunch of videos including being lent 2 of Ivan Balabanov's videos (Thanks Joe) Obedience without conflict (Clear Communication and The Game) and Ed Frawley's E-Collar training for Pet owners purchased with a Dogtra 1700 E-collar.


My first suggestion is to take that DVD and put it into the trash. It's not only bad advice about using the Ecollar it's a poor example of ANY kind of training. The narrator and main player, EF (to protect the guilty) is known as a breeder but not a dog trainer and certainly not an Ecollar user. A few times he discusses the need for consistency in dog training and says never to give a command that you aren't going to enforce. But it's a "do as I say, not as I do" show. A couple of times in the video he tells a dog to stay and the dog breaks the stay a few moments later. No correction comes. At one point he gives a dog a sit command and the dog downs. He actually rewards the dog for this and says, "It's OK, you're not my competition dog." There's no correction for the dog doing what he wants to do, instead of what he's been told to do. 

He shows how to find the working level of stim on a dog. He finds it and then says that he likes to go a little higher. He then proceeds to stim the dog at too high a level repeatedly and puts the dog into avoidance and a fear reaction to him. 

I believe that nothing is completely worthless, it can always serve as a bad example, and this video is one such example. 

In any case you can read more about My review of this DVD at http://loucastle.com/books.htm 

Thanks, Chris, for the kind words and putting my website link up. 

The Ecollar used as I do is one of the gentlest compulsive tools out there. 



Geoff Empey said:


> I'm realizing my dog while extremely over the top driven to work is a fairly, soft dog to physical correction, which is fairly typical with Female Malinois I understand. So an e-collar may not be the best tool to use with her. Especially now since I still don't really have a clear understanding on how or where to utilize it properly.


Don't let that DVD throw you for a loss. The producer should stick to what he knows. He's horribly brutal in many areas and it's only natural that this should extend to his use of the Ecollar. 

Take a look at the articles the Chris Wild linked to. While it's not a DVD it will give you far better results than that particular video. 

The fact that your dog is soft to physical corrections really has nothing to do with how she'll respond to the Ecollar. The level that the dog first feels is also not related to hardness, softness, toughness, handler hardness level, balance of drives or anything else. It has to do with skin conductivity and the placement and sensitivity of nerves to electrical current. It's impossible to predict beforehand at what level the dog will first feel the stim. EF uses that as a starting place but I use THAT LEVEL for all the basic OB. 

EF's method also does not teach the dog what the stim means and my method does. I think this is essential to make the best use of the Ecollar. 



Geoff Empey said:


> The reasoning behind the e-collar is I am physically disabled and I figured it was akin to a long line with out the long line as per hype I've read on other message boards and e-collar sites. So I thought having an e-collar will not only give me options and or freedom of movement but more of the same for the dog as well.


I've trained many physically disabled people to use the Ecollar. From someone with a bad leg to someone with little arm strength to someone with no legs. 



Geoff Empey said:


> As per Ed Frawley's video I tried to find a working Stim level for her. We got a reaction from her on level 28 but at level 25 even on continuous stim there was no response. But at level 28 she would get really jumpy. The page to me seemed to get the best reaction from her.


Sounds like a 26 or 27 is the right level for your dog. If the dog "gets really jumpy," you're too high. As far as the reaction to the vibration, many dogs ignore it completely, some dogs don't care for it but soon learn to ignore it, and some dogs panic! Since it's not adjustable, it's of little real use for training. 



Geoff Empey said:


> For example .. I'll say "sit" (no response) "no"... and stim her with a page and repeat "sit". She gets antsy and almost goes into avoidance behaviour. Remember this is only on page. But to me it still wasn't what I expected after reading all the hype surrounding e-collar use itself.


Stop using the page, it's scaring your dog and it's not adjustable. 

Start using the lowest level of stim that she feels. You're seeing avoidance because the dog has no idea of what the vibe means. She won't know what the stim means either and here's why EF's methods suck. You've already scared your dog and now she's been put into avoidance by the Ecollar. Using my methods you'll guide the dog into the desired behavior with a leash and then shut off the stim. That way she'll learn very quickly what the stim means. Read the article on the recall http://loucastle.com/recall.htm and the sit http://loucastle.com/sit.htm 



Geoff Empey said:


> I really thought/hoped that the e-collar DVD would fill in that void that I am missing. But I feel left just wanting something more to sink my teeth into from a working and training stand point with the e-collar. Things are still not super clear about it's use still. Especially with how my dog reacts to it


Your dog reacts the way she does because the video doesn’t tell you how to use the tool. Many dogs figure it out but just as many don't and EF doesn’t know this, and so he can't tell you, the novice user, about it. 

I've never had to try another brand of Ecollar, no matter which brand I was using. They do have a different feel but I don't know that the dogs care. These things are expensive and hopping brands won't help you at all when the problem is the basic way that it's being used.


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## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

Al Curbow said:


> The 2nd biggest mistake i ever made was not having it fit properly. It's mucho important that a good fit is in place first!


What Al describes here. proper fit, is the single biggest problem that new Ecollar users have. They don't put it on snugly enough (and snug is the operative word). Here's an article on it. http://loucastle.com/fit.htm 



Al Curbow said:


> My dogtra 2 dog collar (the kind with the toggle, not the 2 different colored buttons) doesn't really start to stim till it's on about 15.


If you were to put that on a test bench you'd see that it's putting out stim at a 1 or a 2. but it's below the threshold of most humans, most dogs and the test light too. I've got a dog here that feels a 4! 



Al Curbow said:


> Lou Castle's method really works good. I printed his method out and did a few dry runs with guiding the dog into the command and all that and the results are really good.


Thanks for the vote Al. I appreciate it.


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## marcy bukkit (Oct 4, 2007)

Great thread, since I've been debating using an ecollar on my female malinois as well. If I may ask a question - What is the best way to determine an appropriate setting? I've heard a few different answers to that, but not from anyone I would consider sufficiently knowledgeable.


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## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

marcy bukkit said:


> What is the best way to determine an appropriate setting?


Here's how I suggest doing it. http://loucastle.com/fit.htm


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Matthew Grubb said:


> Geoff… do you get the same avoidance reaction to the stim as you did with the page? Some dogs (mine included) can be real sensitive to the page vibrations to the point of shutting down but are finbe with the stim itself.


No she scratches at it or something along those lines. I'll retry with just stim.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Julie Ann Alvarez said:


> I would suggest having a private session with some one who actually uses the collar for training regularly if possible or at least having a lenghty conversation with one of these people.


Thanks Julie Ann, My problem is in the city I live in is full of treatsie wheatsie cuddly muffin pet trainers. The kind of mentality where _Shutzhund and Ring is where the aggressive dogs go_ ... :-& There is very little e-collar experience in this town especially real working and or protection sport experience. So I'm probably beat.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Lou Castle said:


> My first suggestion is to take that DVD and put it into the trash. It's not only bad advice about using the Ecollar it's a poor example of ANY kind of training.
> 
> Don't let that DVD throw you for a loss. The producer should stick to what he knows. He's horribly brutal in many areas and it's only natural that this should extend to his use of the Ecollar.
> 
> ...


Sorry to hear this, I just figured that I was watching descriptions of older e-collar use and was having a hard time to understand some of the info how it relates to my dog. 

The producer of that videos business has helped me and my dog immensely over the past year and continue to do so. I'll just chock it up to experience and carry on. 



Lou Castle said:


> Stop using the page, it's scaring your dog and it's not adjustable.


Done ..



Lou Castle said:


> I've trained many physically disabled people to use the Ecollar. From someone with a bad leg to someone with little arm strength to someone with no legs.
> 
> Sounds like a 26 or 27 is the right level for your dog. If the dog "gets really jumpy," you're too high. As far as the reaction to the vibration, many dogs ignore it completely, some dogs don't care for it but soon learn to ignore it, and some dogs panic! Since it's not adjustable, it's of little real use for training.
> 
> Start using the lowest level of stim that she feels. You're seeing avoidance because the dog has no idea of what the vibe means. She won't know what the stim means either and here's why EF's methods suck. You've already scared your dog and now she's been put into avoidance by the Ecollar. Using my methods you'll guide the dog into the desired behavior with a leash and then shut off the stim. That way she'll learn very quickly what the stim means. Read the article on the recall http://loucastle.com/recall.htm and the sit http://loucastle.com/sit.htm


Thanks for the articles and advice, I'll start to incorporate the methods today and see how me and dog fare out.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Al Curbow said:


> The 2nd biggest mistake i ever made was not having it fit properly. It's mucho important that a good fit is in place first! My dogtra 2 dog collar (the kind with the toggle, not the 2 different colored buttons) doesn't really start to stim till it's on about 15. Lou Castle's method really works good. I printed his method out and did a few dry runs with guiding the dog into the command and all that and the results are really good. The first biggest mistake i made was trying to find my females level but didn't switch the toggle over to the color of the collar she had on, i kept turning it up (all the way to about 80) and messing with it till i figured something was wrong and i come aroung the corner and there's one of my males curled up by the corner of the house, he was getting it the entire time. I felt about as bad as you can feel. I tell this story so maybe you won't make the same mistake,


Wow your poor male!!:!: 

I do have a good fit, I got 3/4 posts when I ordered my collar as I had advice from another e-collar user. He has a Dutchie and was having to cinch the collar really tight using the 5/8 posts and even then it was not settling as well through the fur. He went with 3/4 and it was problem solved without having to overtighten the collar itself. With my limited experience it works well, and the posts are easy to change using a small wrench.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

marcy bukkit said:


> Great thread, since I've been debating using an ecollar on my female malinois as well. If I may ask a question - What is the best way to determine an appropriate setting? I've heard a few different answers to that, but not from anyone I would consider sufficiently knowledgeable.


With my experience my advice is to go with longer contact posts. That way you have consistent contact and consistent stimulation. I'd read Lou Castles info on how to find level or get a copy of Leerburgs video on it, as that info on the DVD was clear to me from a visual explanation standpoint. 

Another thing I found surrounding the info and sometimes hype about e-collars. Is that from what you are reading from this thread about e-collar use is the tool itself is nothing if you don't know how to use it properly. Find someone local who maybe able to help you or attend a e-collar seminar somewhere. I really hope that I can do that soon.


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## Julie Ann Alvarez (Aug 4, 2007)

Geoff,

I am asuming that you have a phone, call some one like Lou (not sure what Lou charges for phone training) and speak directly with him or whomever. The conversation will be much better over the phone than on the computer. Then you see you will have a contact that you can develope a relationship with and can go back to that person when your next issue comes up. Like a mentor  who knows.....

Most people are pretty helpful and they want to see you succeed, as long as they have credentials and a friendly mannor.

Good Luck,

Julie


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## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

Julie Ann Alvarez said:


> I am asuming that you have a phone, call some one like Lou (not sure what Lou charges for phone training) and speak directly with him or whomever.


I usually don't charge at all unless someone wants to carry on for quite some time. An hour or so is not a problem. Geoff if you're interested send me an email (not a PM). Sometimes I don't get notified about the PM's unless I visit the forum.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

I wanted to publicly thank Lou Castle for putting out those great e-collar articles for anyone to use at no charge. He has great insight and his articles are very easy to understand and follow. I am always amazed at the generosity of people like Lou Castle.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

One of my testimonials is on his site and he has helped me (free) on the phone.

I learned the real life way about low stim at the right time with a little demon who chased a goat through a charged cattle fence, took the hit, twitched and continued the chase.

Before Lou, we did the attempt at zapping the dog while she was in drive with a high stim and it did not phase her (guess whe should have figured that out when the cattle fence did not phase her). Now with low stim and timing we corrected the 1st phase of the chase - eye contact. She has a working level almost always below 20.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Would anybody have a review of this DVD from Dobbs dogs? 

Says


> Learn how to use your collar correctly and with confidence.


I could use some confidence in using my e-collar .. 

http://www.dobbsdogs.com/catalog/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=13_88&products_id=513


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Geoff, If you haven't already, put the collar on your arm & feel the stimulation for yourself. Most people are completely surprised at what it actually feels like. It doesn't hurt - unless of course, you turn it way up. It's more like being tapped (hard) by a finger, it startles but doesn't hurt. 

Then, since you don't have anyone near you for advise, give Lou a call. This really will help your confidence.


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