# FCI IPO Championships sans stick hits?



## Jim Engel (Nov 14, 2007)

I am hearing from several sources that starting this
year there will be no stick hits in the FCI IPO championships.

It has been coming for a long time, the final Pussification of
Schutzhund, but I have not seen a really hard source.


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## Mark Horne (Oct 12, 2006)

Its rumour only, but bear in mind that in 20yrs time riding a horse will be considered cruel and demeaning.... then anything is possible.

No shooting from the hip please and blaming trainers/breeders/competitors for watering down the standards if anything this sort of direction is a result of popularity and "visibility", once one sport is compromised no sport/trial will be safe, including operational LE K9's.

Not true but it could be coming to a club near you..sadly

Mark


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

It's true, no stick hits at FCI Championship events, I read it on a FB thread, where Frank confirmed it. Apparently there is a good chance the issue of stick hits will come up for a vote in 2017 to amend the FCI rules for all trials, but of course, that remains to be seen. Others don't think this, but logic tells me that unfortunately if the rules are changed for all FCI trials in 2017, the WUSV will also bow down and follow suit. 

Perhaps Frank will pass more along on this thread if he sees it.

I realize we are right now only talking about schH...oh sorry it's called "IPO":roll:, but I don't think it will end with schH, these winds of change don't bode well for any grip sport, nor in the long run, does it look good for the working dog.


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## Dave Martin (Aug 11, 2010)

I had heard that there would be no sticks hits THIS year because of the location of the championship.

To confirm, as of now, there will be no stick hits at any future FCI championship??


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## Jim Engel (Nov 14, 2007)

This just confirms what we know, the FCI and IPO are a joke.

And the bad part is that the SV converted Schutzhund into
IPO so that it could be watered down and they could pretend
to be against it.

Like it is now, is exactly like it would be if the NFL were to
decide that we would have the same rules for the regular
football season, except that the Super Bowl would be touch
football.

We saw it coming, but it is still a sad day.

In Europe you can not dock tails, crop ears, use a prong collar,
use an E collar, use the stick. Even the currently watered down
"courage" test will be further watered down.

The pussification of Europe is on track, remember where this
all went when they want just a "few reasonable gun control
measures."


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

The FCI and WUSV are ran by show dog people who care not for the working side of their dogs. You think these people will stand up for whats right? Its a padded stick that neither hurts or injures the dog. There is no animal cruelty, none nadda.
It will only happen if people allow it. What was it one of the US founding fathers said? The amount of tyranny you will live under is the exact amount you will let them get away with? Something like that anyway.
Its so crazy nowdays that in Sweden you cant use padded soft stick on your IPO dog but you can have sex with it legally? And people let it continue. 
Are they still going to at least going to allow the stick to be used as a waggle stick over the dogs head, or does the FCI deam that too mean?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Can you still scare the dogs off the object in the Mondio trials?


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> Can you still scare the dogs off the object in the Mondio trials?


Your not allowed to use a mean face.


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## Erik Berg (Apr 11, 2006)

Christopher Jones said:


> Its so crazy nowdays that in Sweden you cant use padded soft stick on your IPO dog but you can have sex with it legally? And people let it continue.
> Are they still going to at least going to allow the stick to be used as a waggle stick over the dogs head, or does the FCI deam that too mean?


Switzerland maybe, in sweden you can use the stick.


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Erik Berg said:


> Switzerland maybe, in sweden you can use the stick.


I remember a recent IPO worlds in Switzerland where they took out stick hits. So why would they take out stick hits from a worlds in Sweden when IPO rules say there is stick hits?


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Christopher Jones said:


> I remember a recent IPO worlds in Switzerland where they took out stick hits. So why would they take out stick hits from a worlds in Sweden when IPO rules say there is stick hits?


Apparently it is been taken out of all FCI world championship events from now on and looks like it will be taken out of the rules in 2017. FCI wants them out and it will be put to the vote in 2017.
I think it also is part of the recent rule coming into IPO that any trainer who is caught using a ecollar, prong or choker chain while training their dogs will be banned for 2 years from all FCI events and their dogs will also not be allowed to be bred for 2 years as well. Also all FCI member countries have to do the same. Any pictures or videos or witness statements of you training using these tools is instant ban.
infact the way it is written any corrections at all will be deemed ban worthy.


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## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

It's official. I'm done with IPO after this year


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## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

It's exactly that sort of thinking that ruins military training as well


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## Haz Othman (Mar 25, 2013)

Hunter Allred said:


> It's official. I'm done with IPO after this year


It sucks I was just really getting started..I dont think I can be part of this sport if there is no pressure however minimal from the decoy.
Hopefully PSA starts taking off a bit more.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

More dogs are bothered by the threat then the actual hit itself and a good ring decoy will stop more dogs with a strong barrage and never touch the dog.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Thomas Barriano said:


> More dogs are bothered by the threat then the actual hit itself and a good ring decoy will stop more dogs with a strong barrage and never touch the dog.


hmmm...

Yes I agree, as long as we keep in mind that those same dogs can sometimes undergo 10-20-50 actual stick hits in one exercise sometimes. which could possibly be a cause for some of those dogs stopping before they get touched by a good threat.

I have seen both SCH and ring dogs develop issues with the sticks, from being hit. things become a threat once they are perceived as a threat..and that "threat" eyou are talking about is mostly a learned thing, that can also be learnedfrom a negative experience with a stick, which could be from getting hit with one. 
just sayin..

I think this is a very very sad thing, this removal of stick hits personally, on quite a few levels.


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## Erik Berg (Apr 11, 2006)

Christopher Jones said:


> Apparently it is been taken out of all FCI world championship events from now on and looks like it will be taken out of the rules in 2017. FCI wants them out and it will be put to the vote in 2017.
> I think it also is part of the recent rule coming into IPO that any trainer who is caught using a ecollar, prong or choker chain while training their dogs will be banned for 2 years from all FCI events and their dogs will also not be allowed to be bred for 2 years as well. Also all FCI member countries have to do the same. Any pictures or videos or witness statements of you training using these tools is instant ban.
> infact the way it is written any corrections at all will be deemed ban worthy.


OK, it sounded strange because it´s not a law against stickhits in sweden, I guess this will mean the swedish national championship in IPO will have stickhits as usual but not the FCI -championship a month later. Prongs and e-collars are forbidden in sweden so it would be more understandable if this was not tolerated during the championship. Regarding switzerland I read they are going to forbid this year all foms of collars that can "cause harm", meaning also choke-collars and not only prong and e-collars.


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## Ellen Piepers (Nov 6, 2008)

Any collar can be used to do harm with.


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Maybe one day in someone will realise that making rules.upon rules of this sort does not change anything in terms of abuse or poor treatment of aninals in training. Leta hope that one day someone will grasp the concept of not blaming the material used but the person using it.


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## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

Ellen Piepers said:


> Any collar can be used to do harm with.


You don't need a collar to abuse a dog.


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## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

Alice Bezemer said:


> Maybe one day in someone will realise that making rules.upon rules of this sort does not change anything in terms of abuse or poor treatment of aninals in training. Leta hope that one day someone will grasp the concept of not blaming the material used but the person using it.


There isn't a good track record for learning in the world these days


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## Erik Berg (Apr 11, 2006)

Saw this on the FB page of FCI IPO 2014 so I guess it´s true then, still very strange when it´s allowed in other IPO-trials
ABOUT "THE STICK PRESSURE TEST" 
Because we have over 10,000 followers, and several are from another country, 
I write this in English, 
Regarding "the stick pressure test in IPO" 
result of the FCI working dog commission:
The stick comes in FCI 2014 World Cup, only to be used as a threat, no dogs will be hit by the stick. 
This is NOT for other IPO trails, ONLY in FCI IPO World Championship
Note, this is not a decision that Sweden has taken, this is a decision from FCI WDK.


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## Stefan Schaub (Sep 12, 2010)

I do not get how upset people get with that. One question

Does the stick hits on a trial show the quality difference between dogs?

if that is the case people should first start to think about if the own training is running straight.a puppy get born with out any fear for stick or what ever, if the dog shows already in puppy age weakness for some kind of threat why train him then at all.if the dog shows it suddenly later, something have happen,own fault!does it change the quality of the dog?

Since ever dogs have get stick hits, does it have make the show dogs or most of the working dogs better?

no organization and no rule book have make the breed worse!! the only one who have f… up here are the breeders!!!

It is time to open the eyes and start to breed with dogs that deserve to be in a breeding program


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## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

Stefan Schaub said:


> I do not get how upset people get with that. One question
> 
> Does the stick hits on a trial show the quality difference between dogs?
> 
> ...


I'd say yes, a proper stick hit can show the difference between two dogs all else held equal. One dog may become unsettled, while another does not. That, to me, is but one exercise that helps to show a measure of a dogs genetically tied ability to take stress or not.


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## Stefan Schaub (Sep 12, 2010)

Hunter Allred said:


> I'd say yes, a proper stick hit can show the difference between two dogs all else held equal. One dog may become unsettled, while another does not. That, to me, is but one exercise that helps to show a measure of a dogs genetically tied ability to take stress or not.


This answer shows how much you know about this* sport!!!!*
or how much you think about the concept of training.next maybe someone will say that the stick hit proofs fight drive of a dog.


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## Mark Sheplak (Oct 28, 2011)

Stefan Schaub said:


> I do not get how upset people get with that. One question
> 
> Does the stick hits on a trial show the quality difference between dogs?


Yes, more so than no hit. 

A strange helper executing a powerful drive, coupled with a good hard stick hits will expose weaker dogs. It may show up in the grip shifting. It may show up in a delayed out, no out, or the dog getting dirty after the out. The effects may be cumulative throughout the routine. I know that poor training can cause similar issues in strong dogs for different reasons, but it is a sport so it isn't just the dog, but the training as well. 

As you point out often, the best sport dogs are necessarily the best dogs to breed. I think that the point here is the IPO is on course (or maybe it is already at the destination) of becoming irrelevant in terms of impacting breed worthiness.


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## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

Stefan Schaub said:


> This answer shows how much you know about this* sport!!!!*
> or how much you think about the concept of training.next maybe someone will say that the stick hit proofs fight drive of a dog.


Yeah I don't know anything and my training is trash, same old song and dance. 

You never did tell me what I was doing wrong in the video links I sent....

Criticism without any constructive advice is at best a worthless waste of everyones time.


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## Stefan Schaub (Sep 12, 2010)

Mark Sheplak said:


> Yes, more so than no hit.
> 
> A strange helper executing a powerful drive, coupled with a good hard stick hits will expose weaker dogs. It may show up in the grip shifting. It may show up in a delayed out, no out, or the dog getting dirty after the out. The effects may be cumulative throughout the routine. I know that poor training can cause similar issues in strong dogs for different reasons, but it is a sport so it isn't just the dog, but the training as well.
> 
> As you point out often, the best sport dogs are necessarily the best dogs to breed. I think that the point here is the IPO is on course (or maybe it is already at the destination) of becoming irrelevant in terms of impacting breed worthiness.


ipo is not a breed test!!it is a test of learned behavior,it is a test who is the best trainer or who have the best team around.each trial is the same.no surprises!!stick hits no suprises.drive no suprisess.
Best example the dogs around Jogi. all perfect trained!!!the only one who was good for the breed was Eric but he had only one ball.
i can not remember that i have say the best sport dogs are necessarily the best dogs to breed.would i say that??

but you have give the answer by your self: "I know that poor training can cause similar issues"


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## Stefan Schaub (Sep 12, 2010)

Hunter Allred said:


> Yeah I don't know anything and my training is trash, same old song and dance.
> 
> You never did tell me what I was doing wrong in the video links I sent....
> 
> Criticism without any constructive advice is at best a worthless waste of everyones time.


i am pretty sure i have send you a email!!
i called you Master of confusion, because not one exercise was clear for your dog,you trained things what never happen on any ipo trial,you never was able to keep the girl in a straight position,not one part of your training is trial close. the girl was not able to come into a routine.but that is what ipo is, a routine of trained behavior.
you are more than welcome in the spring to visit us


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## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

Stefan Schaub said:


> i am pretty sure i have send you a email!!
> i called you Master of confusion, because not one exercise was clear for your dog,you trained things what never happen on any ipo trial,you never was able to keep the girl in a straight position,not one part of your training is trial close. the girl was not able to come into a routine.but that is what ipo is, a routine of trained behavior.
> you are more than welcome in the spring to visit us


I don't think I ever got an email. 

I *do* train things that have nothing to do with IPO, because I'm not training for IPO, I'm training behaviors I want. If the opportunity to trial in IPO presents itself then I trial. We have trialed and titled so it can't be that far off lol. Personally, I think we've done alright for my first dog, and being handler owned, trained, handled, and me having even done most of the helper work on her lol, with very little outside help. Gotta at least give me that.

I'd love to train, but you are clear across the country from me.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Haz Othman said:


> It sucks I was just really getting started..I dont think I can be part of this sport if there is no pressure however minimal from the decoy.
> Hopefully PSA starts taking off a bit more.


Come do Ring with us Haz! We even 'oh my gosh' have a gun in the protection exercises.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Read this:

http://www.peter-scherk.de/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/Peters-letter.pdf


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## John Wolf (Dec 12, 2009)

I am not a fan of them taking the stick hits away. However, what dogs that stand a chance worth winning a big international competition have any issues with a stick hit with a padded stick? I think this will only allow the dogs that pass with 70-70-70. I actually think that it may ***possibly*** help a stronger dog win. The reason I think that is because I have seen some dogs that get good stick hits and it pisses them off and makes them want to fight more. My last mali was like that. After a good drive and stick hits were put him in a different frame of mind that was hard to control. haha.


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## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

John Wolf said:


> I am not a fan of them taking the stick hits away. However, what dogs that stand a chance worth winning a big international competition have any issues with a stick hit with a padded stick? I think this will only allow the dogs that pass with 70-70-70. I actually think that it may ***possibly*** help a stronger dog win. The reason I think that is because I have seen some dogs that get good stick hits and it pisses them off and makes them want to fight more. My last mali was like that. After a good drive and stick hits were put him in a different frame of mind that was hard to control. haha.


i've also seen the opposite. hard stick hits that put more fight in the dog but make them clearer and more focused.


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## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

does anyone have a link to an official statement that this is so? trying to sort out the fact from the fiction & rumor. can't find anything of an official capacity anywhere


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## John Wolf (Dec 12, 2009)

Hunter Allred said:


> i've also seen the opposite. hard stick hits that put more fight in the dog but make them clearer and more focused.


 
Yes, so then aren't you weeding out the dogs that do not bring power on their own. It shouldn't take the stick hits to "wake up" a dog.


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## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

John Wolf said:


> Yes, so then aren't you weeding out the dogs that do not bring power on their own. It shouldn't take the stick hits to "wake up" a dog.


Thats one argument. Its also another that the dog that gets unruly because of a stick hit, doesn't take the pressure well/can't stay clear under pressure. One can spin either case in any direction one wants and there are valid arguments in support of any/all of them, and find dogs that demonstrate that argument to be true. Whatever the case, I think we can all agree that removal of stick "pressure" does remove a method of evaluating a given dog.

I'd argue you could find two dogs. One of which needs to be "woken up" by a stick hit. I work one like that regularly. And one that just performs better with a stick hit.

Two dogs where one gets unruly b/c of stick hit unsettling them, and one that gets unruly b/c they are more engaged in the fight.


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## John Wolf (Dec 12, 2009)

Hunter Allred said:


> Whatever the case, I think we can all agree that removal of stick "pressure" does remove a method of evaluating a given dog.
> QUOTE]
> 
> I do agree. I don't like the stick hits being taken away at all, but to say that is the downfall of IPO is silly. We are talking about this being taken out of the FCI championships. How many dogs that have a snowballs chance in hell of competing and winning this trial have stick hit issues? The flaw in temperment would show other places and be exposed well before that trial.


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## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

John Wolf said:


> Hunter Allred said:
> 
> 
> > Whatever the case, I think we can all agree that removal of stick "pressure" does remove a method of evaluating a given dog.
> ...


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## Paul Cipparone (Feb 13, 2011)

It all started with the introduction of Mondio Ring ,sloped oneway Pallisade wall, no stick hits , only if dog releases grip. 
When will it happen to French Ring ? oh! it already has , with decoys not challenging the dogs with " PRESENCE " , falling down on the defence of handler, very high scores due to soft decoy work. 
Titles given to any & all. 
Great for future breedings.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

John Wolf said:


> Hunter Allred said:
> 
> 
> > Whatever the case, I think we can all agree that removal of stick "pressure" does remove a method of evaluating a given dog.
> ...


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## Jim Engel (Nov 14, 2007)

http://www.angelplace.net/usca/SchutzhundOver.htm


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

The issue is not that the stick hit was in any way a test of character but it shows a further decline in IPOs testing of a dog. The courage test is next. But as I guess the show dogs have been managing to pass with the courage test in it then it wont be missed as its not a test of true character. I guess all we need to to see the power of the dogs barking in the blind. That will tell us all we need. But make sure that hes barking at a ball launcher in the hide and not a bad guy with a sleeve.
NVBK should get another look from people in the US.


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## Jim Engel (Nov 14, 2007)

Why don't you do NVBK in Australia to show us how to make it happen?


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## Sue DiCero (Sep 2, 2006)

This is like the date change for the WUSV this year. Husband was competing, I was team captain and never received any notice about any date changes. But there were "conversations", but no official notice.... And nothing changed...

Is there an official email from the FCI, sent to the member clubs of the FCI?

Is there an official post on the FCI web-site?

FCI judges in Europe are not aware of any official change, just of discussions. Talked to a few this AM.....


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Jim Engel said:


> Why don't you do NVBK in Australia to show us how to make it happen?


Tried it but with our small population it was very difficult. There are thousands of people in the US doing dog sports and if they got behind it then it would be a success. Here we maybe have 100 people in the whole of Oz doing dogsport.


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## Jim Engel (Nov 14, 2007)

Christopher Jones said:


> Tried it but with our small population it was very difficult. There are thousands of people in the US doing dog sports and if they got behind it then it would be a success. Here we maybe have 100 people in the whole of Oz doing dogsport.



Basically the same problem, really spread out population.

I am afraid IPO / Schutzhund is the only thing that has real traction here.

I would love to have a real NVBK club down the street.

Or KNPV or Fench Ring, any would be wonderful, but once you had
the sport situation you then need to find the right dog for that sport.


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Jim Engel said:


> Basically the same problem, really spread out population.
> 
> I am afraid IPO / Schutzhund is the only thing that has real traction here.
> 
> ...


I just dont get why NVBK didnt take off in the US. It can be done on a small field, you make your own distractions, its fun to do, its a tough test of a dog, the NVBK bend over backwards to try and promote the sport, it has a pedigree registration ability for people using unpedigreed dogs, and they are hardcore working people. Also decoys dont get banged up alot and you dont need to be a really talented decoy like FR or IPO to work the dogs.
It really is a great sport.


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## Jim Engel (Nov 14, 2007)

Christopher Jones said:


> I just dont get why NVBK didnt take off in the US. It can be done on a small field, you make your own distractions, its fun to do, its a tough test of a dog, the NVBK bend over backwards to try and promote the sport, it has a pedigree registration ability for people using unpedigreed dogs, and they are hardcore working people. Also decoys dont get banged up alot and you dont need to be a really talented decoy like FR or IPO to work the dogs.
> It really is a great sport.


The people they have hooked up with to try and get something going
were pretty lame. I am not certain, do not have actual facts or numbers,
but the Belgians with a wider world view seem to have gone IPO because
it had more world wide opportunities. Lots of big name Belgians in the IPO
world over the years.

I will give you an example. As late as 1985, all of the police dogs
in Ghent, Belgium, where it all started in 1899, were German 
Shepherds! Other places also, like Brussels.

If they can't connect with their own cops, how can they expect to 
connect with the rest of the world?

I think the NVBK people live in their own little world.

I would love to see it change, but I don't know how to do it.


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## Mark Sheplak (Oct 28, 2011)

Stefan Schaub said:


> ipo is not a breed test!!it is a test of learned behavior,it is a test who is the best trainer or who have the best team around.each trial is the same.no surprises!!stick hits no suprises.drive no suprisess.
> Best example the dogs around Jogi. all perfect trained!!!the only one who was good for the breed was Eric but he had only one ball.
> i can not remember that i have say the best sport dogs are necessarily the best dogs to breed.would i say that??
> 
> but you have give the answer by your self: "I know that poor training can cause similar issues"


I accidentally left out the word "not", that the "best sport dogs are NOT necessarily the best dogs to breed"...sorry for the confusion. 

I still think that driving/flying to a strange stadium, seeing two different strong helpers, etc. will provide some information about the breed worthiness of a dog. It isn't a complete picture, but it will provide some information. Great training cannot mask all faults in an animal when pressured.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Sue DiCero said:


> This is like the date change for the WUSV this year. Husband was competing, I was team captain and never received any notice about any date changes. But there were "conversations", but no official notice.... And nothing changed...
> 
> Is there an official email from the FCI, sent to the member clubs of the FCI?
> 
> ...


Look on the UScA Facebook page, Jim Alloway confirmed it.


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## Haz Othman (Mar 25, 2013)

Geoff Empey said:


> Come do Ring with us Haz! We even 'oh my gosh' have a gun in the protection exercises.


A real one!? Seriously, I may have to take you up on that.


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## Robley Smith (Apr 20, 2012)

I recently posted on my facebook page about an article I saw where the British royals were under pressure over their involvement in pigeon racing. Pigeon racing! Here is what I had to say, and I believe it applies to this as well. 

"The PETA HSUS whackos aren't content to stop with hunting, pet breeders, farming, dog sports, rodeos, whatever. If you think that the one in question on a given day doesn't affect you, so who cares, you are just standing in line and waiting your turn for the firing squad. They all affect you, because sooner or later it will be that thing that matters to you, even if that is only a hamburger."


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## manny rose (Jun 3, 2010)

Jim Engel said:


> Why don't you do NVBK in Australia to show us how to make it happen?


Why should usa pick another foreign sport to struggle to get people to support....when we have psa and american suit sport. People are so quick to let the europeans pave their way...and then they are the ones blamed here for waterimg it down..psa is the biggest suit sport in the usa! And you say why not nvbk??? That sounds silly as hell but to each his own. Get behind something usa born...and steadily growing.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Christopher Jones said:


> The issue is not that the stick hit was in any way a test of character but it shows a further decline in IPOs testing of a dog. The courage test is next. But as I guess the show dogs have been managing to pass with the courage test in it then it wont be missed as its not a test of true character. I guess all we need to to see the power of the dogs barking in the blind. That will tell us all we need. But make sure that hes barking at a ball launcher in the hide and not a bad guy with a sleeve.
> NVBK should get another look from people in the US.


IPO's testing of a dog? If we had to rely on this, there wouldn't be many strong dogs around. I am also not in favour of all the changes but the stick "beating" which has to be the same for each dog, i.e. lightly, is not really a show of the dogs' nerves or toughness. Thomas Barriano said, the threat for the dog is greater before he sinks his teeth into the arm.

A "clever" trainer can get his dog to 1PO 3 by selecting the helpers and judges that will judge it "humanely". He won't get picked for the Worlds team but it can sell puppies better for handlers that are not experienced enough to test the dog themselves.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

hahaha I love it, people are already justifying why no stick hits means nothing. I remember the same thing happening when the reed stick was replaced with the padded stick, when the attack out of the blind was removed, when the courage test became just a long bite. One day, all the grips will be taken out of schutzhund too because "it's a sport for all dogs", and the same people will be justifying why that's no big deal either.


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## Jim Engel (Nov 14, 2007)

manny rose said:


> Why should usa pick another foreign sport to struggle to get people to support....when we have psa and american suit sport. People are so quick to let the europeans pave their way...and then they are the ones blamed here for waterimg it down..psa is the biggest suit sport in the usa! And you say why not nvbk??? That sounds silly as hell but to each his own. Get behind something usa born...and steadily growing.


PSA is run by a dictator.

There are a lot of other problems, & I need to publish an over view.


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## Keith Jenkins (Jun 6, 2007)

Thomas Barriano said:


> More dogs are bothered by the threat then the actual hit itself and a good ring decoy will stop more dogs with a strong barrage and never touch the dog.


Bingo!


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## Sue DiCero (Sep 2, 2006)

susan tuck said:


> Look on the UScA Facebook page, Jim Alloway confirmed it.


Sue - thanks, but looking for the email from the FCI sent to the member clubs or link to page of FCI.

Is that on the UScA Facebook page?

I know that people have been having conversations - I am one of those people that want written confirmation of a change. If it has changed for this year FCI World Championship, there should be communication sent to all member clubs.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Maybe I've missed something but this year the Worlds is in Sweden. 

I have not seen any official Report that stick hits are forbidden. There's no mention on our officia Website, nor on the Leistungshundeforum in Germany.


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## Khoi Pham (Apr 17, 2006)

Jim Engel said:


> PSA is run by a dictator.
> 
> There are a lot of other problems, & I need to publish an over view.


Hi Jim, any rules change or decisions made with PSA are put up to vote by region directors, you can hear a lot of things but this is they way it is.


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## Keith Jenkins (Jun 6, 2007)

It's been announced on the AWDF website also.


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## Jim Engel (Nov 14, 2007)

Khoi Pham said:


> Hi Jim, any rules change or decisions made with PSA are put up to vote by region directors, you can hear a lot of things but this is they way it is.



Yes, but are not the regional directors appointed by the dictator?


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## Sue DiCero (Sep 2, 2006)

Gillian Schuler said:


> Maybe I've missed something but this year the Worlds is in Sweden.
> 
> I have not seen any official Report that stick hits are forbidden. There's no mention on our officia Website, nor on the Leistungshundeforum in Germany.


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## Ted Summers (May 14, 2012)

Jim Engel said:


> PSA is run by a dictator.
> 
> There are a lot of other problems, & I need to publish an over view.


Please enlighten us. I like reading your stuff here and on your site so I'm interested in the problems and over view you have of PSA.

I'd not go as far as calling Bradshaw a "dictator" but I'd still like to hear what you have to say. I understand your comment but I'd rather have a well run, for profit, organization... run for the benefit of it's customers than a small cadre of volunteers that think they know and speak for the rest of an organization (like getting rid of stick hits). Communication aspects aside. Further, the rules are pretty clear and the rule book is easily downloaded for all to see, as well as the decoy hand book, and all trial logs with scores and judges etc etc. So, I've heard a lot of things about PSA in the past and about some of the misgivings some people have. I'd like to hear what you have to say


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Mark Sheplak said:


> Yes, more so than no hit.
> 
> A strange helper executing a powerful drive, coupled with a good hard stick hits will expose weaker dogs. It may show up in the grip shifting. It may show up in a delayed out, no out, or the dog getting dirty after the out. The effects may be cumulative throughout the routine. I know that poor training can cause similar issues in strong dogs for different reasons, but it is a sport so it isn't just the dog, but the training as well.
> 
> As you point out often, the best sport dogs are necessarily the best dogs to breed. I think that the point here is the IPO is on course (or maybe it is already at the destination) of becoming irrelevant in terms of impacting breed worthiness.


Don't forget, the stick hits must be equally intensive for each competitor and I don't think that "hard" hits are allowed?


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

John Wolf said:


> Yes, so then aren't you weeding out the dogs that do not bring power on their own. It shouldn't take the stick hits to "wake up" a dog.


 
It never has and never will!


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## Khoi Pham (Apr 17, 2006)

Jim Engel said:


> Yes, but are not the regional directors appointed by the dictator?


Yes that is true, but I know most of them and they all have their own views on things and strong will, you can't assume that they will vote along with Jerry on everything.


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## Jim Engel (Nov 14, 2007)

Ted Summers said:


> Please enlighten us. I like reading your stuff here and on your site so I'm interested in the problems and over view you have of PSA.
> 
> I'd not go as far as calling Bradshaw a "dictator" but I'd still like to hear what you have to say. I understand your comment but I'd rather have a well run, for profit, organization... run for the benefit of it's customers than a small cadre of volunteers that think they know and speak for the rest of an organization (like getting rid of stick hits). Communication aspects aside. Further, the rules are pretty clear and the rule book is easily downloaded for all to see, as well as the decoy hand book, and all trial logs with scores and judges etc etc. So, I've heard a lot of things about PSA in the past and about some of the misgivings some people have. I'd like to hear what you have to say


Ted, There is some PSA commentary here:

http://www.angelplace.net/dog/KankakeeComments.htm

I need to pull together a section for the Police Dog book, and
that is coming up on my to do list.

I have an EMail address for you, but confirm it by sending me an EMail and I will send
a draft for you to comment on.


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## Mark Sheplak (Oct 28, 2011)

Gillian Schuler said:


> Don't forget, the stick hits must be equally intensive for each competitor and I don't think that "hard" hits are allowed?


Yes, of course each dog must be worked as identically as possible. That being said, in the nationals or worlds, one would expect (and hope for) the most possible pressure to be applied to each competitor to try and expose an flaw whether it be genetic or training. I would think that "hard" hit would be required. Given the padded stick and the location where you strike, you are not going to hurt the dog. 

If you are basically petting the dog with the stick, why is everyone concerned about hits going away?


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Mark Sheplak said:


> Yes, of course each dog must be worked as identically as possible. That being said, in the nationals or worlds, one would expect (and hope for) the most possible pressure to be applied to each competitor to try and expose an flaw whether it be genetic or training. I would think that "hard" hit would be required. Given the padded stick and the location where you strike, you are not going to hurt the dog.
> 
> If you are basically petting the dog with the stick, why is everyone concerned about hits going away?


 That's what I'm wondering about


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## Ted Summers (May 14, 2012)

I've read that a few times. In essence you say towards the end

_The essential problem with PSA seems to be discerning the purpose of the program, and then evaluating it in terms of an evolving, viable American working dog heritage. In an era where the value of the police and military dog is increasingly in substance detection, primarily drugs and in the case of military dogs explosives, a one dimensional protection venue would seem to be out of step with the times in terms of evaluation for breeding or service selection. 

My view is that America needs a comprehensive venue which can appeal to and attract the police community, which would also emphasize search and scent work. PSA does of course not claim to be comprehensive, is in this sense one-dimensional. Also, PSA is essentially owned and controlled by one man with no provision for any real control and influence by the membership as a whole, which has already contributed to one group of former PSA members, prominent and well regarded men, separating in order to provide an alternative venue. It seems unlikely that an organization without a broader base in terms of leadership and control will appeal to a predominant segment of the working community. _


While I agree with some of what you say I think it is important to remember than this is after all a sport. You point out the value of K9 units in LE and Military and that their value is in detection and PSA lacks some sort of nose work like IPO and actual AKC nose work. While I get that it's not entirely true as upper levels do require the dog to find hidden decoys and discriminate scents of thrown objects similar to Belgian/Global ring and French ring object returns. Does it goes as far as IPO tracking? No way. Was it intended to? No. None of the exercises in PSA were intended to mimic IPO stuff, we already have IPO. In fact, PSA encourages cross over _FROM_ IPO and ring. Why would we need a tracking like exercise? Also, you are correct. PSA is one dimensional in the sense that it requires TONS of control. More so than most other dog sports and certainly more than most biting sports. The other factor you don't mention is the handlers part of the equation. In ring the dog is largely relegated to equipment and the competition is between the trainer and the decoy. IPO is about precision. Take to many steps, points off. Take to long to out, point off. In both the handler is largely they as a starting and end point for the dog. PSA requires (to be successful) the handler KNOW what their dog is good at and weak in. It's a sport and being successful means thinking on your feet. 

EQ. Last trial in FL. A dog was sent to find a hidden decoy in the 'tent of doom.' Handler sends, dog finds the decoy but can't figure out how to get into the tent. Handler makes a split second decision to show the dog the way into the tent, dog engages and fights the decoy and id driven out of the tent. Handler lost point for helping the dog BUT.... she would have failed the exercise if the dog didn't bite. What do you do? In that respect I think it gives a more complete picture of the TEAM of the handler and dog rather than just the dog or just the decoy or just the trainer. So in that respect I think it's not all that one dimensional. This is one big difference/observation I think you left out that should be included. 

With respect to the 'run by one guy' thing. I get it. I do. However... like I said, I'll take PSA being well run, having excellent communication, well written rules and expectations over an organization that is run by volunteers with separate agendas that don't care about membership. Further, having a single figure give the organization direction; a clear one. I haven't a clue what DVGs or the SVs mission is in the dog world and I don't think they do either. The US is a nightmare of a fuster cluck when it comes to DVG, WDA, USaC, and the other associated breed working organizations. I'm convinced they can't find their own ass' with both hands. Either way I'm paying a membership fee, a club fee, and trial fees. I, personally, feel like I get almost nothing from the IPO world for that money. No support, no communication, no organization, nothing. I get that from PSA. Until the SV and DVG pull their heads out, you'll be correct in your assessment from a few days ago. For the foreseeable future I'm not messing with IPO in any serious way. I'm not really looking forward giving any money to any IPO organizations. 

additionally you say this;

_The underlying problem with the suit sports in America is that it tends to be a zero sum game; with each new program primarily drawing recruits from other suit oriented venues rather than new people. Over many years there have been a more or less consistent group of two to four hundred enthusiasts, but relatively little real growth. Not only is this unproductive in an organizational and promotional sense, there is very little reason for those without some sort of personal problem with the sleeve sports to consider a new venue until it demonstrates a comparable record of stability and availability._

I 110% agree with you. Accessibility is a huge issue for PSA and ring. IPO has the opposite problem; tons of access but the barrier to entry is very high with most clubs. Seeing as this was written well before 'stick hit-gate' how do you feel about what you've written about suit sports? Different? What _I see_ as a young(er) trainer, decoy, and competitor is exactly opposite of what you describe above. I see new, young people involved in PSA that have _NEVER_ stepped onto an IPO trial field and likely never will. THAT... will have to change with IPO. 

For the record I really respect you and I think some of th esuit sports comments were a little short sighted and think the underlying issue is organizational rather than a sport (any) not having a true 'reason' for being. Until those running some organizations figure that out they are destined to be relegated and watered down. I'd encourage you to offer to be a steward at a PSA trail (you obviously know dog sports) and watch the handler-dog-decoy interactions _really_ close. Hell, take once of your dogs out and get a PDC-SD just to see


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Jim Engel said:


> As an example, one advanced exercise involves a decoy with the body suit standing over the dog and shouting about a distant decoy. The dog must ignore the immediate threat and leave to attack the distant decoy at handler command. Stepping back, I find this scenario contrived, unrealistic and counter to the principle that the dog should primarily protect the handler under the direct threat.


Jim. What you write about is a level two scenario, which is played out twice, once for a bite, once for a call off. The judge flips a coin on trial day determining whether a bite or call off will be first. The man in the "body suit" standing over the dog and shouting about a distant decoy isn't there to get bit. Isn't it nice that he has a suit on so the dog can't tell that. Instead, if your training is flawed, the dog might make a choice and bite that guy, who just got his wallet stolen and is panicking about it to a guy with a dog. He isn't a threat, Jim. Is it realistic that the dog then goes to bite a guy on the word of another guy? not really. but it demonstrates that a dog has control not to bite, and can take direction to bite. Nothing more or less. 

PS go to a trial and have a seasoned competitor or a judge go over the rules with you as it's happening. you'll get a much clearer picture and it will make your writing, which I enjoy, more clear to the masses.





Jim Engel said:


> Ted, There is some PSA commentary here:
> 
> http://www.angelplace.net/dog/KankakeeComments.htm
> 
> ...


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

A post from Facebook reprinted with permission from Jerry Bradshaw hisself.



Girard Bradshaw I don't feel like a dictator....I would be a lot richer I think and at least have a beach house and a Mercedes








Jim Engel said:


> Yes, but are not the regional directors appointed by the dictator?


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## Jim Engel (Nov 14, 2007)

Somebody ought to collect the comments together and start a new link,
because this is a very important discussion.

At the Waine Singleton trial last fall in Illinois I was allowed to be on the
field and take photographs and talk to the judge, the helpers, and many
of the people. They were very congenial, and we talked openly.

The Photos:
http://www.angelplace.net/p_Dogs/ChiFst2013/sat/index.html

This was my first PSA trial, my first impressions. I left my comments 
buried on the text because I want to see more. First impressions need
time to digest.

Right now my priority is to better understand police drug detection work,
because it is so important and I need to make the book strong on the
subject.

From a breed point of view, the nose of the police dog is today more
important than the bite. This needs to be a focus in breeding and 
training.

Also, cop handlers are over all never going to be more than average
handlers. Lots and lots of great trainers/ handlers / breeders are
cops, but lots of ordinary police officers wind up on the end of a leash.

When I talk to the guys that buy and supply Euro police dogs, they are
very aware of this.

For me, the sports, police works, military work, breeding all need to
be in harmony. But they are not today, and that is what wee need to
work on.


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## manny rose (Jun 3, 2010)

Jim Engel said:


> PSA is run by a dictator.
> 
> There are a lot of other problems, & I need to publish an over view.


Lol...i domt really care who is president...its about the sport..ie..the test of the dogs! The rules are written in a rule book like every other sport and so on. I guess we will have to wait on your over view..to find out why psa is the biggest suit sport in the states! Have you ever competed in or been to a trial? If the answer is no..well then i dont know where you base your writting? And if you do..please point out how we can try to make the sport better. (from your perspective anyway) These are some of the reasons people have reservations about certain things....they hear something like i dont like psa it is ran by a dictator...but then no real info or reasoning...so please do explain! Enlighten the , masses!


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## Mark Horne (Oct 12, 2006)

Jim Engel said:


> Somebody ought to collect the comments together and start a new link,
> because this is a very important discussion.
> 
> At the Waine Singleton trial last fall in Illinois I was allowed to be on the
> ...


Now thats a very good post Jim, the only thing I would clarify Jim on the nose is tracking, its huge over here, some sections even measure officers performance on the tracks. I think we're averaging one bite for every 30 tracks, our dogs also search for gun residue and money. We carry a separate spaniel for drugs or explo.

Cheers 

Mark


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## Jim Engel (Nov 14, 2007)

OK, lets deal with the "have you ever been to a trial."

http://www.angelplace.net/dog/Jim%20EngelResume.htm

Also, Many, an introduction is a requirement of this forum,
I can't seem to find one for you.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

So the answer is no. You have never competed in a PSA trial. Got it.

Jim, the problem is communication, here, clearly. I am going to stay out of your thread about FCI IPO Championship sans stick hits. 

Enjoy.



Jim Engel said:


> OK, lets deal with the "have you ever been to a trial."
> 
> http://www.angelplace.net/dog/Jim EngelResume.htm


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## Khoi Pham (Apr 17, 2006)

Hi Jim, this is from the PSA website.

"Mission of the Protection Sports Association (PSA)

The Mission of the Protection Sports Association (PSA) is to provide an outlet for civilian competition in canine obedience and controlled protection, and to recognize achievement with titles and prizes, and promote competition with club trials and championship tournaments. PSA will endeavor to set a new standard for training excellence in the protection sports, and PSA shall encourage cross-over from other protection sports, to provide a competitive venue that will test the best against the best, and encourage excellence, sportsmanship, and integrity throughout the dog training community."

We have never promote anything other than that, not for police, breeding, if you don't like it that is fine, but you can't just call somebody a dictator when you are not a member or involve in any decision making process.


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## Erik Berg (Apr 11, 2006)

The importance of stickhits or not, the most silly thing is why remove it at all when it doesn´t hurt the dog in any way. Some dogs have run or showed avoidance at WUSV when the helper waving the stick in the reattack, not the actual hits, but I wonder if the next move will be to not allow the "waving" either. 

Getting good points is obviously about good trainers but surely IPO tells us something about the dog if you know what to look for, I mean there are obvious differences between some dogs and I guess this is not all about training.


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## Jim Engel (Nov 14, 2007)

"you can't just call somebody a dictator when you are not a member or involve in any decision making process."

You mean like you can't call Stalin a dictator unless you are a member of the communist party?

Like you can't call Castro a dictator unless you live in cuba?

And I have never entered a KNPV trial, French Ring Trial, Belgian ring trial, but I have seen each one many times in Europe, but I cannot comment until I enter one?


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## Ted Summers (May 14, 2012)

You're obviously using the term pejoratively so there is an assumption of distaste. You're more than welcome to comment no matter the venue. I'd be happy with specifics of how Bradshaw is a dictator. People say that like he just push his will on the members without input and that ain't the case. In all actuality the SV, or whoever, is dictating to us, well you, that there will be no stick hits in the FCI champs despite what you want. It sounds like they've made a lot of changes in the last 15 years that are counter to the founding and to the members wishes. That to me sounds like a "dictatorship." People assume because there is a director that he has an ill agenda. I just don't see it. So....


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## drew sterner (Aug 26, 2011)

I am a transfer from IPO to PSA before this mess happened. Will never look back. I highly recommend any IPO people inquire into the sport and find out what it is all about. I cant tell you how many new members have told me that PSA is more helpful and friendly than any other sport they have been in. The ones that are serious about dog sport competition love it. It does take more of an investment than IPO (equipment, decoys, ect) but well worth it.



ps. we have stick hits over here.


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Erik Berg said:


> The importance of stickhits or not, the most silly thing is why remove it at all when it doesn´t hurt the dog in any way. Some dogs have run or showed avoidance at WUSV when the helper waving the stick in the reattack, not the actual hits, but I wonder if the next move will be to not allow the "waving" either.
> 
> Getting good points is obviously about good trainers but surely IPO tells us something about the dog if you know what to look for, I mean there are obvious differences between some dogs and I guess this is not all about training.


If it was replaced with something else it wouldnt be so bad. I would be happy for the decoy instead of using a soft padded stick to shoot two gunshots off as the dog comes in for the entry. Or if they introduced something else that puts mental pressure on the dog.


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## manny rose (Jun 3, 2010)

Jim Engel said:


> "you can't just call somebody a dictator when you are not a member or involve in any decision making process."
> 
> You mean like you can't call Stalin a dictator unless you are a member of the communist party?
> 
> ...


 My last post on this thread.....jim...you can comment all you want but...arent you writting a book on alot of this stuff? I think most would hope the ,am writting the book has hands on knowledge about which he speaks..you can not watch you tube videos on something and the write a credible book about it. Thats all im saying! Just as you wrote psa a has a dictator..and yet have been to one trial and maybe got your info from message boards! Come on buddy?


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## Erik Berg (Apr 11, 2006)

Christopher Jones said:


> If it was replaced with something else it wouldnt be so bad. I would be happy for the decoy instead of using a soft padded stick to shoot two gunshots off as the dog comes in for the entry. Or if they introduced something else that puts mental pressure on the dog.


Exactly, If a rule change is going to be made there needs to be some good alternative instead, otherwise a certain sport will obviously be less demanding the more you change it. But in this case the stickhits are not a rule that are dangerous for either decoy or dogs, so the change seems mostly have to do with pleasing the general public for some reason. 

But if the messeage is IPO is only a sport and no breedtest I doubt there will be any usefull rulechanges to promote dogs for service.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Erik Berg said:


> Exactly, If a rule change is going to be made there needs to be some good alternative instead, otherwise a certain sport will obviously be less demanding the more you change it. But in this case the stickhits are not a rule that are dangerous for either decoy or dogs, so the change seems mostly have to do with pleasing the general public for some reason.
> 
> But if the messeage is IPO is only a sport and no breedtest I doubt there will be any usefull rulechanges to promote dogs for service.


I have read on Leistungshundeforum that Sweden does not allow the stick hit. The idea is that the FCI will make an exception for the 2014 in Sweden.

Do not confuse Switzerland with Sweden. Switzerland is in 2015.


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## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

Gillian Schuler said:


> I have read on Leistungshundeforum that Sweden does not allow the stick hit. The idea is that the FCI will make an exception for the 2014 in Sweden.
> 
> Do not confuse Switzerland with Sweden. Switzerland is in 2015.


I understood that b/c some countries allow and some do not allow stick hits, to make world venues fair no stick hits for any world venue moving forward. Not just when the host country doesn't allow stick hits. That would effectively make world venues challenging for stick-hits-not-allowed country teams


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## Erik Berg (Apr 11, 2006)

Gillian Schuler said:


> I have read on Leistungshundeforum that Sweden does not allow the stick hit. The idea is that the FCI will make an exception for the 2014 in Sweden.
> 
> Do not confuse Switzerland with Sweden. Switzerland is in 2015.


Yes, but stickhits are not forbidden by law in sweden, it´s not swedish law that says no to this, is stickhits also allowed in switzerland you mean?


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## Richard Ramirez (Sep 6, 2011)

Stefan Schaub said:


> I do not get how upset people get with that. One question
> 
> Does the stick hits on a trial show the quality difference between dogs?
> 
> ...


 Stefan, this is an excellent reply about the stick hits and the core of the problem. Thanks!


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Erik Berg said:


> Yes, but stickhits are not forbidden by law in sweden, it´s not swedish law that says no to this, is stickhits also allowed in switzerland you mean?


Hi Erik

I have to admit that stick hits are now forbidden in Switzêrland, although no mention is made of it on our official TKGS (Technical Commission for the Utility Dogs) Website.

We are also now not allowed to use any collar with a "choke" function on our dogs.

We are not able to stop the beating of innocent children, sometimes resulting in their deaths. We cannot stop women or men beating each other up but we can enforce a law to stop a harmless beating of a dog in IPO Sport.

Disgusted

Gill


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