# Working ability of Beauceron



## Garland Whorley (Jun 5, 2008)

Have a friend considering getting one, I have only trained 1 in OB. Does anyone have an opinon on this breed for PP, how strong of fight, defense etc. Is the breed all over the map without consistent dogs. Whats your thoughts?


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## Kristen Roberts (Sep 28, 2010)

Garland Whorley said:


> Have a friend considering getting one, I have only trained 1 in OB. Does anyone have an opinon on this breed for PP, how strong of fight, defense etc. Is the breed all over the map without consistent dogs. Whats your thoughts?


It is hard to find good working lines with consistent dogs. They can be very high in defense. The good ones can have really high fight drive. The biggest downfall I would say for using this breed for personal protection is their very slow maturity level. Expect 3-4 years to mentally mature. 

Unless your friend is willing to do a lot of research and really knows (and loves) the breed, and is willing to wait, he might be better off getting a breed with more consistency and that matures faster.


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## Jhun Brioso (Dec 28, 2009)

Contact Debbie Skinner here in the forum.. She has a wealth of knowledge / experience when it comes to Beaucerons.


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

I have some experience with one on the dept here. He is a strong dual purpose dog. Wish I could be more help but my experience with the breed is limited at best. Good luck in your research


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## Gina Pasieka (Apr 25, 2010)

Jhun Brioso said:


> Contact Debbie Skinner here in the forum.. She has a wealth of knowledge / experience when it comes to Beaucerons.


I second this recommendation. Debbie will have the most knowledge of working Beauceron's probably in the US.


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## Jhun Brioso (Dec 28, 2009)

Garland, 

here is her website www.pawsnclaws.us ( Les ombres valeureux ) 

Thanks.


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## Jhun Brioso (Dec 28, 2009)

Gina Pasieka said:


> I second this recommendation. Debbie will have the most knowledge of working Beauceron's probably in the US.


Thanks Gina...


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## herman williams (Nov 23, 2011)

recently attendit a trackingseminair of thomas woginger (austria) , and he has some nice beacerons , one is from breeder in czech , laila ooms , she has a young female of her breeding that will definately be good for PP , little malinoislike caracter with good sharpness ,think her kennelname is warrior soul


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## Claire Poissonniez (Feb 11, 2011)

Yes, I've seen some Warrior Soul Beaucerons doing bitework on video and I am impressed with them. Definitely worth consideration!

Kristen is right, there is very much variation in the breed, with each an individual with all the surprises and quirks that come along with that.

I'm currently training my Beauceron in Schutzhund and she's a lot of fun to work with if you love the breed and have a helper who has the finesse to bring out the best in the dog. I'd say my particular girl is more prey than defense, and she has good ball and food drive, with a nice will to please. I let her mature and that seemed to help. Still, not always easy to train and not bound for the nationals, but I love her. 

I get the impression that many Beaucerons wash out because of harsh training, which they cannot tolerate. Or, they are treated like a shepherd or mali which they most certainly are not (a calm hold is not generally natural to the breed from what I've seen. They like to thrash quite a bit). Keeping it fun, light and realistic seems to be working for me.

This is all from a newbie, so take it for what it's worth.

Best of luck!


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## Kristen Roberts (Sep 28, 2010)

herman williams said:


> recently attendit a trackingseminair of thomas woginger (austria) , and he has some nice beacerons , one is from breeder in czech , laila ooms , she has a young female of her breeding that will definately be good for PP , little malinoislike caracter with good sharpness ,think her kennelname is warrior soul


I second the referral to Laila if one wants to go the import route. 

The only person in the States I'd refer to for solid working Beauceron is Sue West.


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## christina chapman (Oct 9, 2011)

I would agree with Claire and Kristen...and per my experience, it is _not _an easy thing to find a working Beauceron pup in the States right now. 

I'm getting another Beauceron (for Ring) this next year, and unless something unplanned happens, I will be importing my pup. 
But I am new to ringsport side of things, so I have a lot to learn yet...and I gather PP training is significantly different, correct?

If one doesn't love the breed, there are likely others more readily found that are better suited. (My perception is a lot of people in the States have shifted to other breeds as their focus became working ability.)

But I am also curious to read about the experiences others on the board have had with the breed, too...and I obviously gave zero information in response to the OP's questions, ha.

Has anyone experienced PP-style training with a Beauceron?


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## Kristen Roberts (Sep 28, 2010)

christina chapman said:


> I would agree with Claire and Kristen...and per my experience, it is _not _an easy thing to find a working Beauceron pup in the States right now.
> 
> I'm getting another Beauceron (for Ring) this next year, and unless something unplanned happens, I will be importing my pup.
> But I am new to ringsport side of things, so I have a lot to learn yet...and I gather PP training is significantly different, correct?
> ...


I only did a little PP with one of my boys. We were working with some PSA people but I didn't regularly train PSA so it was all new to my dog. The decoy worked with a light bitesuit, and at least the jacket looked almost like a regular winter coat people wear up north. We did like a car jacking scene, etc. But we only went a few times and this wasn't his regular training, so can't really say I'm "experienced" with PP style training with a Beauceron


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## Kellie Wolverton (Jan 16, 2009)

Garland Whorley said:


> Have a friend considering getting one, I have only trained 1 in OB. Does anyone have an opinon on this breed for PP, how strong of fight, defense etc. Is the breed all over the map without consistent dogs. Whats your thoughts?


I have had only 2 Beaucerons. A female from Ombres Valeureux lines and a male imported from France.

For me, the answer is "it depends" on what exactly you are looking for as far as protection.

We live in a rural area and have a lot of foot traffic travelling through. I would say my need for PP is a bit higher than most. I have never trained either of the dogs for PP, but both my Beauceron have been appropriately protective and been a great deterrent to keep people away.

They have , on one particular occasion when I was genuinely afraid for my life, kept the "bad guy" at bay until I could get to the house.

I am not sure if the attacker was more determined if they would back down. Most people are scared off by the looks and barking alone. 

Both of my dogs are good all around ranch dogs. But their need for physical and mental stimulation can be high.


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## eric squires (Oct 16, 2008)

Be careful Beaucerons have the same heart problems as dobermans.....but if you like a new dog every 6-7 yrs they might be ok


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## Kellie Wolverton (Jan 16, 2009)

eric squires said:


> Be careful Beaucerons have the same heart problems as dobermans.....but if you like a new dog every 6-7 yrs they might be ok


 yes...we lost our import male at 4 years to DCM. Many people are not willing to openly discuss DCM/Heart issues, so it is difficult to know how deeply rooted this particular health issue is within the breed.


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## Claire Poissonniez (Feb 11, 2011)

DCM is not as rampant in this breed as in Dobermans. It appears to be specific to certain lines, but not at the same level as the Dobie. The ethical breeders do an echocardiogram on all breeding stock to be safe. 

I agree that open and honest discussions are vital to keeping this breed healthy. I'm not saying the breed is without health issues. I think hips are more of a concern, though, as far as the numbers go. And most Beaucerons live to about 10 years.

That is sad to hear that you lost your male to this affliction. That is heartbreaking. It is good for the breed that you are willing to talk about it, though, and keep the dialogue open.


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## Rivek Irwin (Jan 30, 2011)

I knew a woman who had working Beaucerons. The younger stud she was working on Schutzhund with, was a very impressive animal while in action. But tended towards being very...persnickity about training. The more I spoke with her, the more she explained it was a trait common to the breed. Which depending on the handler and how they were training could explain why they are not very common in sport. 

http://fc09.deviantart.net/fs71/i/2011/011/4/0/schutzhund_training_ii_by_broncojonny-d36y5ln.jpg

That is a picture of the dog working on training for his Sch III (I believe). I took this photo a couple of years ago.


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## Kellie Wolverton (Jan 16, 2009)

Claire Poissonniez said:


> It appears to be specific to certain lines, but not at the same level as the Dobie. The ethical breeders do an echocardiogram on all breeding stock to be safe.
> 
> I agree that open and honest discussions are vital to keeping this breed healthy. I'm not saying the breed is without health issues. I think hips are more of a concern, though, as far as the numbers go.


I am very interested in which lines are affected? and how did you come by this data?

The sire of my male has had his heart tested, and will continue to be done as far as I know, in France by sonogram and is clear. 

I guess it just depends on your outlook, which is most important. Because of my experience, I would put a higher value in a good heart and strong nerves. Hips can be replaced. Of course, ultimately, you want the "whole package". Thank goodness for breeders who are willing to keep trying for the breed's sake. 

Echo is only so effective in diagnosing, and unless it is done every 6 months, it really doesn't mean any more than "the dog was clear, on that day, at that time".


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## Kellie Wolverton (Jan 16, 2009)

Rivek Irwin;315676
[URL said:


> http://fc09.deviantart.net/fs71/i/2011/011/4/0/schutzhund_training_ii_by_broncojonny-d36y5ln.jpg[/URL]
> 
> That is a picture of the dog working on training for his Sch III (I believe). I took this photo a couple of years ago.


Great photo. thanks for sharing it. To make it that far in Schtz is impressive.

The breed does not do well with a more harsh training style. Add in the fact that they are smarter than average and training becomes interesting. But we train for herding, not the bite sports


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## Claire Poissonniez (Feb 11, 2011)

I don't think this is the place for me to point out specific lines, but I will say that the genetic link is very clear as I've seen it happen that lines with perfectly fine hearts get some new blood and that's when the problem starts. It's really a shame because a breeder tries to bring in new blood and this issue can arise unexpectedly. These are just my observations from those who are honest enough to disclose the information.

It's true that the echo is not perfect, but it's the best we've got at this time, aside from looking at pedigrees. Utilizing both is our best chance right now. But, like I said, it doesn't seem to be rampant, as it's never shown up anywhere in my dog's lines thank goodness. But, if it someday did, I would be honest about it for the sake of the breed.

It's good that the sire has been tested. How about the dam? I think that's equally important. But, with recessives and such, perhaps we'll never know the cause.

Nerves and health are very important to me. I never said otherwise. My point is that the heart issue is not common, not that it lacks importance.


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## Claire Poissonniez (Feb 11, 2011)

Gorgeous photo! I'm pretty sure I know which dog that is. He was handsome and talented. A real asset to the breed.


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## Kellie Wolverton (Jan 16, 2009)

Claire Poissonniez said:


> I don't think this is the place for me to point out specific lines, but I will say that the genetic link is very clear as I've seen it happen that lines with perfectly fine hearts get some new blood and that's when the problem starts. It's really a shame because a breeder tries to bring in new blood and this issue can arise unexpectedly. These are just my observations from those who are honest enough to disclose the information.
> 
> It's true that the echo is not perfect, but it's the best we've got at this time, aside from looking at pedigrees.
> 
> ...


You brought up that you have the knowledge that DCM exists in this breed in SPECIFIC lines. I do not think asking which lines you have identified is unreasonable.

There is great speculation about DCM and the mode of inheritance. Until this is fully understood, the rest is just that, speculation.

Maybe one of the vets on this board can answer to echo being "the best we have". I was and am under the impression the only way to be sure a dog has no heart issues is by sonogram. That is how my dog was diagnosed. By that, as well, is "only at that day at that time".

The dam died around age 10, without ever being tested. She lived on a small farm in France and worked dairy cattle. So,yes, we will never really know. But there will be those quick to "blame" the dam


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## Claire Poissonniez (Feb 11, 2011)

Honestly, I can't see any good coming from naming dogs on this specific list. And no, none of these dogs belong to any friends of mine or are behind any friends' dogs, so it is not a matter of covering for anyone. The information is out there should someone wish to seek it.

I wouldn't blame the dam, but I'd look at her lines if that were a possibility. Living until age ten is a good sign, but what about the dogs behind her? Just for information purposes, not to make a claim. I think "blaming" any dog is wrong. It's not that clear, and we must look at the whole picture. 

An echo is the same as a sonogram. It costs quite a bit, too, compared to just an auscultation. But it is worth it if you really want to get as much information as possible on your dog's health.


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## Kellie Wolverton (Jan 16, 2009)

Claire Poissonniez said:


> Honestly, I can't see any good coming from naming dogs on this specific list. And no, none of these dogs belong to any friends of mine or are behind any friends' dogs, so it is not a matter of covering for anyone. The information is out there should someone wish to seek it.
> 
> I wouldn't blame the dam, but I'd look at her lines if that were a possibility. Living until age ten is a good sign, but what about the dogs behind her? Just for information purposes, not to make a claim. I think "blaming" any dog is wrong. It's not that clear, and we must look at the whole picture.
> 
> An echo is the same as a sonogram. It costs quite a bit, too, compared to just an auscultation. But it is worth it if you really want to get as much information as possible on your dog's health.


I wasn't accusing you of covering for anyone. But , this is a perfect example of what happens when this is brought up. The info is available to a very select few. Many people are scared to admit their dogs shortcomings, heath or otherwise, as the "witch hunt" mentality is alive and well.

I am well aware of the cost of the exam. I was confusing the term echo with auscultation. My apologies.

Good luck to you and your pooches, it looks like your female is doing well with the bite sports. It is nice to see 8)


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## Claire Poissonniez (Feb 11, 2011)

You're right, the witch hunt is alive and well. But I know you are not part of it. 

Thanks for the good luck wishes. Same to you and your dogs. Herding is a tough thing to do good to see, as well.


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## Gina Pasieka (Apr 25, 2010)

I would love to see more Beauceron people being open about DCM. I do breed specific clinics for breeding purposes for a lot of different breeds (Dobes, CKCS, Goldens, etc), but have never seen a Beauceron echo clinic being offered. Please feel free to correct me if I am wrong, because I would like to think that the breeders are attempting to weed out those genes.


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## Kellie Wolverton (Jan 16, 2009)

Claire Poissonniez said:


> You're right, the witch hunt is alive and well. But I know you are not part of it.
> 
> Thanks for the good luck wishes. Same to you and your dogs. Herding is a tough thing to do good to see, as well.


LOL..no I am not part of that. I keep pretty much to myself.I focus on my own dogs and have finally learned to dismiss/ignore the arm chair quarterbacks :wink: I have never even met most of the Beauceron folks...but some of them have very strong opinions about me and my dogs 

Keep up the good work!


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## Claire Poissonniez (Feb 11, 2011)

I think that the lack of breed specific clinics may be due in part to our small numbers? It is hard to find many Beauceron together in one place. Perhaps it is something to look at for future specialty shows (which don't tend to have a huge entry, either, but perhaps enough to pay for the services and get a group rate). Echos are getting more prevalent in the breed, as can be see on the OFA website, and a clear cardiac is needed to get a CHIC number.


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## Kellie Wolverton (Jan 16, 2009)

Gina Pasieka said:


> I would love to see more Beauceron people being open about DCM. I do breed specific clinics for breeding purposes for a lot of different breeds (Dobes, CKCS, Goldens, etc), but have never seen a Beauceron echo clinic being offered. Please feel free to correct me if I am wrong, because I would like to think that the breeders are attempting to weed out those genes.


There are very few breeders, but those that I know of take the health testing very serious and are doing their best as to all of the various health concerns.

I think the breed numbers are so low, a turnout large enough to support a Beauceron echo clinic may not be realistic.

I have not attended the National Specialty, so perhaps there were health clinics offered there. Claire will know more about that than me.


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## Claire Poissonniez (Feb 11, 2011)

Arm chair quarterbacks! I love it. Yes, we do have our share of them, but I guess the same can be said in most breeds.


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## Claire Poissonniez (Feb 11, 2011)

I attended one two years ago. It was our first since we became an AKC recognized club, and we offered herding instinct testing (non-AKC), ATTS temperament testing, and a European (Dutch) judge came to measure and evaluate the dogs in the French style. It was a fun time, but you're right, no health clinics were offered. Good idea for the future. I didn't go to last year's specialty because flying out dogs gets expensive.


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## Gina Pasieka (Apr 25, 2010)

Well if there is anyone here that is part of the breed club, please feel free to contact me. I would be happy to try to get something started for the breed. I will post something on the cardiology list serve and see if I can get an idea of how many Beuceron's people are seeing and the percentages they are diagnosing with DCM. I also think it would be helpful to get a real good idea of normal echo parameters in working males and females in order to help get a better idea of what left ventricular dimensions and changes in systolic indices implies early disease.


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## Kellie Wolverton (Jan 16, 2009)

I am no longer a member of the breed club. I would be more than happy to send you a copy of my males report. And would also be willing to take my female in for a exam. I have to admit, I am a little gunshy about that, but will put on my big girl pants and do it


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## Gina Pasieka (Apr 25, 2010)

Thanks Kellie. Let's see what we can get started here. Like I said, I will put some feelers out to the other cardiologists and then contact the AKC/breed club and see what we can do. I don't know how much information that the breeders will release about specific dogs of course, though it would be great to track the genetics to determine the mode of inheritance. I am very excited about the possibilities here.
Here is my mailing address:
Gina Pasieka, DVM, DACVIM (Cardiology)
Chesapeake Veterinary Cardiology Associates
165 Fort Evans Road NE
Leesburg, VA 20176


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## dale durden (Nov 16, 2011)

christina chapman said:


> I would agree with Claire and Kristen...and per my experience, it is _not _an easy thing to find a working Beauceron pup in the States right now.
> 
> I'm getting another Beauceron (for Ring) this next year, and unless something unplanned happens, I will be importing my pup.
> But I am new to ringsport side of things, so I have a lot to learn yet...and I gather PP training is significantly different, correct?
> ...


do you have a breeder that u use for the beauceron if so may i have there info


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

I've been away from wdf due to holiday boarding and rescue boarding. Dale, I'll try to catch up with you. You called then we played phone tag. 

I've raised, trained and imported Beauceron for over 20 years with an emphasis on working lines. It is not easy to find good candidates for protection training due to the lack of interest of breeders to breed for such traits. There are few breeders focused on working bloodlines compared to those breeding for conformation and pets in the world. The few breeders that do focus on working character and drives breed few litters per year as well..that is the breeders that breed 8+ litters per year in the world are breeding showlines overall. With this formula going on for many years, one can see why the breed is where it is today. 

You can also see the trend of people in this breed to make many excuses such as "bad training" as the reason why the breed doesn't train up well. I do not hear this in the working malinois circles. I believe many breeders and owners of Beaucerons get as defensive as their dogs when "faults" are discussed instead of having open discussions on how to improve the breed. If the majority of the owners and breeders feel the breed is misunderstood and it's the trainers and owners fault and never the dogs' lack of "________" (insert quality) then the breed will continue to spiral as a working dog candidate. 

Even when breeding working bloodlines, litters are inconsistant and it's rare to find even a couple outstanding candidates for work. Combine this with the breed's overall slow to mature makes it an unlikely candidate for protection work and sports.

We and other working breeders have placed puppies with some of the top trainers in the world and many have washed out. Why? One cannot continually blame the training. It is what the dogs bring from nature and not the environment the dog is in, in many cases.

The truth is harsh sometimes. But, I would not want your friend to be misled and get a pup and then not be happy because the breed has been built up by breed enthusiasts to be something that it is not.

One must look outside their breed and not have such a myopic view if breed improvement is going to occur.

Of course there are some outstanding dogs in the breed. I've produced Avatar O.V., the only FRIII titled Beauceron in No. America as well as the only SchIII. "The Only" is a sad statement for me to write, but it says a lot about the working ability of the breed as a whole.

I do not have any litters planned at the moment. However, I have plans to purchase a pup from a planned Canadian litter (due date this month). Sire is Avatar, FRIII. Info on my puppy page. So I still carry a torch for the breed...or at least a candle..










video of Avatar: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gcsYu43x-cc&feature=related


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