# Skin allergies



## Chris Murphy (Sep 27, 2009)

My Vizsla has allergies and was put on Cephalexin 500mg 2x a day. The DVM also recommended 3V Skin formula pills. He has lost hair across his back and on top of his neck as well as small bumps and very dry skin. The first trip to the vet I was told is was Seborrhea dermatitis and was given the same Antibiotic and t-sal shampoo (twice a week) the bumps went away but not the hair loss or dry skin as soon as the Anti was ouy the bumps returned. A trip back and I was given more antis and was told it was A allergy from the grass and pollen from hunting :-( that the Scratches he gets from hunting just makes it worse. He doesn't scratch at any of it and it doesn't seem to bother him at all he has no fleas and is on protectant.I got him at 8 months and he had none of these problems and was housed outside now he is inside and gets well over a hour of hard running everyday. Im asking if anyone has had any experience with the 3v pills and if there is any other treatment I can try? Or is there a way I can find out exactly what is causing the allergy? 

Thanks,
Chris


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

"he has no fleas and is on protectant."

Frontline? Advantage? If so, I would stop this first. Give it some time to get out of his system and see if anything changes.
What would I do??? After the "protections has had time to run its course, if it was still there, I would try neosporin or triple antibiotic. These are topical treatments but are a good indicator of the problem is environmental. If there is a noticeable improvement with a topical, I would figure it is environmental. Another magical potion for many skin problems is Gold Bond Medicated Powder. Put it on the dog and use a stiff hair brush to loosen any loose skin as you are brushing it in. Give the dog fish oil capsuls in conjunction with all this (Omega 3). I had a similar problen after I went to OH with the dogs. It got progressivley worse and moved to the next yard of dogs also. The topical cleared the areasup where there was hair loss and resembled a bad clipper burn. My dogs were also scratching big time. After the topical, I started brushing them and putting Gold Bond on them along with Omega 3 but I ised Flax seed oil. The scratching stopped almost immediately and the bad spots and hair loss stopped an I haven't seen it for some time now.
The bottom line is it is a process of elimination but I am not keeping a dog on Cephalaxin all the time but I have seen it done. Sold a pup to a fellow from Washington that his vet had his dog on 1000 mg of Ceph for 2 years. The dog died of pneumonia a believe.


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## Chris Murphy (Sep 27, 2009)

Advantage and I have him on Flaxseed oil pills I will try the Gold Bond. My Bluetick pup hasn't showed any symptoms and the two dogs use each others crate at night ( I have two they don't have a preference as to which one they sleep in) 
The DVM acted like it was normal and said his pointers had it and that it should go away with the colder weather. Im with you I don't want him on antibiotics all his life I saw two different DVMs at the same practice and got two different answers that has me thinking they might be guessing


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

" I saw two different DVMs at the same practice and got two different answers that has me thinking they might be guessing"

Why am I not surprised.
Between you and me.....I would put my money on the advantage....but never can tell. The Gold Bond won't hurt them anyways.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Chris Murphy said:


> My Vizsla has allergies and was put on Cephalexin 500mg 2x a day. .... *He doesn't scratch at any of it and it doesn't seem to bother him at all *....


Just to clarify: The dog is _not itchy_? A vet told you that skin symptoms that do not itch the dog are a grass and pollen allergy?

The skin symptoms of inhalant allergies in a dog are almost always scratching, biting, chewing, and sometimes licking, all in response to ITCHING.

_
QUOTE: Scratching, licking the feet, chewing, and red irritated skin are all symptoms of atopy in the dog. Atopy is the name given to allergies that result from breathing in pollen, dust, or mold. Other than flea bite allergies, atopy is by far, the most common cause of allergies in dogs. END_ 
from Drs Foster & Smith at http://www.peteducation.com

Also see:

http://www.marvistavet.com/html/body_inhalant_allergies.html

http://www.k9web.com/dog-faqs/medical/canine-allergies.html#inhalant

http://www.pets.ca/encyclopedia/inhalent_derma_dog.htm
_QUOTE: While people tend to respond to these various allergens by sneezing and developing watery eyes, animals react by getting very irritated, itchy skin. END_



How long has he been on the antibiotic?





P.S. You want to replace that flax oil with fish oil. How much does the dog weigh? Isn't 3V the one with both fish body oil AND fish liver oil? Does it say how much of each? I ask this because a therapeutic dose of fish liver oil can be too high in a couple of oil-soluble vitamins. I use only fish body oil (that is, in terms of the label, fish oil and not fish liver oil).


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Chris Murphy said:


> .... I saw two different DVMs at the same practice and got two different answers that has me thinking they might be guessing ...



I would get this dog to a derm vet asap and stop pouring money down _that_ hole.

Derm med is a huge specialty. It's a specialty for a reason. A GP vet can't (and shouldn't really be expected to) keep up with such a complex and broad area of vet med as this one.

Unfortunately, I have seen (and read about and heard about) far too many GP vets who don't refer patients to a derm vet soon enough (IMO, I mean). 

All JMO. This (canine allergies and canine nutrition) is something I've been studying/researching for several years. 



Meanwhile, how much does he weigh (for fish oil and Vitamin E dosage)?


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## Chris Murphy (Sep 27, 2009)

*Important Information:*
3V Caps contain fish oil, Omega-3 fatty acids plus Vitamins A, D, and E to help itching, dry skin, and skin infections resulting from your dog's allergies and skin disorders. 

 *Guaranteed Analysis:* Nutritional Information (per capsule):
Crude Protein, not less than
7%
Crude Fat, not less than
90%
Crude Fiber, not more than
1%
Moisture, not more than
2%
 Eicosapentaenoic Acid (EPA)*
180 mg
 Docosahexaenoic Acid (DHA)*
120 mg
Vitamin A
1250 IU
Vitamin D
125 IU
Vitamin E
75 IU
Ingredients: Fish oil, dl-alpha tocopheryl acetate (source of vitamin E), cod liver oil (source of vitamins A and D), gelatin, water, glycerin.


The list on the 3V skin formula caps


He weighs 60lbs and is very lean He has been on the antis for 2 months now with a few weeks between Cause I wanted to see if the bumps stayed away. Since Friday afternoon (Trip to DVM ) the Bumps have gone 


No itching other than a normal scratch here and there








The hair loss and dry skin is not in any of the places given in your link :-k and with no scratching I am leaning more towards the flea meds since I put them on his back and at the base of his neck where he has the most loss although The bumps have spread down both sides of his ribcage in the latest occurrence


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Dogs to get heat / hot spots. We had a GSD that got them down here in SC. She was put on the same stuff as you are talking about. Both fall and spring it would happen it cost me $600 plus. After the second time of happening I decided to call the past two handlers. Czech owners never had that issue, nor did the Indiana handler. I knew both and they were trust worthy people. So after a long sit down with my wife we decided to sell her to people back up north do to the much lower pollen counts being that we lived in one of the most pollenated places in the USA. Since she has been back up north these Hot spots have not returned. Just some food for thought for you.:idea:


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Harry Keely said:


> Dogs to get heat / hot spots. We had a GSD that got them down here in SC. She was put on the same stuff as you are talking about. Both fall and spring it would happen it cost me $600 plus. After the second time of happening I decided to call the past two handlers. Czech owners never had that issue, nor did the Indiana handler. I knew both and they were trust worthy people. So after a long sit down with my wife we decided to sell her to people back up north do to the much lower pollen counts being that we lived in one of the most pollenated places in the USA. Since she has been back up north these Hot spots have not returned. Just some food for thought for you.:idea:



Your description is indeed classic inhalant allergy results. 

He's talking about a non-itching rash. No itching, no scratching, no resulting hot spot.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Connie Sutherland said:


> P.S. You want to replace that flax oil with fish oil. How much does the dog weigh? Isn't 3V the one with both fish body oil AND fish liver oil? Does it say how much of each? I ask this because a therapeutic dose of fish liver oil can be too high in a couple of oil-soluble vitamins. I use only fish body oil (that is, in terms of the label, fish oil and not fish liver oil).



I have had several dogs that really did not tolerate flax oil very well at all. I hate that they add it to so many foods - besides the DHA and EPA from fish oil are superior to the ALA from the flax. There was a recent report also [I got it on a pharma blog] that Flax seeds are shown to be better for people than flax oil - sorry I blew away that link but we soak flax with our steel cut oats and cook in am for breakfast ..........]

Gotta tell you - we have been eating more wild caught salmon these days [at least once a week] and the dogs LOVE the skin -


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Harry Keely said:


> Dogs to get heat / hot spots. We had a GSD that got them down here in SC. She was put on the same stuff as you are talking about. Both fall and spring it would happen it cost me $600 plus. After the second time of happening I decided to call the past two handlers. Czech owners never had that issue, nor did the Indiana handler. I knew both and they were trust worthy people. So after a long sit down with my wife we decided to sell her to people back up north do to the much lower pollen counts being that we lived in one of the most pollenated places in the USA. Since she has been back up north these Hot spots have not returned. Just some food for thought for you.:idea:



Your description is indeed classic inhalant allergy results. I'm glad you were able to get relief for the dog by eliminating the allergen(s) around him.

This thread is talking about a non-itching rash. No itching, no scratching, no resulting hot spot. _QUOTE: He doesn't scratch at any of it and it doesn't seem to bother him at all .... END QUOTE_


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## Kat Hunsecker (Oct 23, 2009)

Well Skin things are tricky!
Mostly itching flaking skin etc. is allergie related! Not just pollen, more foodbased! Most skin problems , in my experience are food related.
Change your diet to a high quality diet. Best would be an exclusion diet with raw, but a high quality natural (no preservative /controlled meatsource) food will do ,too. Choose one without chicken fish based ones are good or beef based. Chicken and Turkey are number one allergens.Of course corn free, etc.! Soeme of them foods are called holistic but make sure you really read the ingredients.
Until chnges come (it may take up tp 4-5 weeks) hang in there.

I would go to the Vet and get a Thyroid check. borderline thyroid can cause a lot of trouble like dry skin, moist excema or dermatitis going along with it. There are a lot more symptoms you can check out, including hairloss, or little undercoat etc. Look here for varius symptoms and more info:
www.hemopet.org
Dr. Dodds is specialized in this and lots of Vets don't know about this, and may tell you the Thyroid is within the normal range and will not give meds for it.
It's worth a check. Safed me tons of money.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Kat Hunsecker said:


> Well Skin things are tricky!
> Mostly itching flaking skin etc. is allergie related! Not just pollen, more foodbased! Most skin problems , in my experience are food related..


Good diet is a great suggestion!

Allergies in dogs are least likely to be food allergies, however. Way under 20% percent of allergies in dogs are food allergies. 

Unfortunately, the perception among owners (and even some GP vets) is different.

Flea hypersensitivity and inhalant/environmental are much more likely than food allergies. There are some differences in the parts of the body more likely to be itch-afflicted in food allergies versus atopy or flea hypersensitivity, and there are a few other ways to tentatively lean towards food allergy or not, but in general, food is far less likely to be the allergy that a dog is suffering from.

_
"Food allergies account for about 10% of all the allergies seen in dogs. It is the third most common cause after flea bite allergies and atopy (inhalant allergies) _" Doctors Foster and Smith at PetEducation.com

"Food allergy is ~10% as common as atopy in dogs ...."
Merck Vet Manual at http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/index.jsp?cfile=htm/bc/70400.htm

A great diet, however, is still a very good first step when you see skin pruritis. Not only that, but supporting the immune system against what is actually an immune response (allergies) starts for me with a good diet.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Kat Hunsecker said:


> ... I would go to the Vet and get a Thyroid check. borderline thyroid can cause a lot of trouble like dry skin, moist excema or dermatitis going along with it. There are a lot more symptoms you can check out, including hairloss, or little undercoat etc. Look here for varius symptoms and more info:
> www.hemopet.org
> Dr. Dodds is specialized in this and lots of Vets don't know about this, and may tell you the Thyroid is within the normal range and will not give meds for it.
> It's worth a check. Safed me tons of money.



Good point! Hypothyroidism is a good thing to check with skin issues.


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## Kat Hunsecker (Oct 23, 2009)

The ways (dog)foods are processed in the US are different, plus the things that can go in the meat source.
Hormones, all kinds of steroids, some even put euthanized/deceased animals in the foodchain. On top of this there are lots of chemicals/preservatives in there that can cause allergies. 
Food that is too high in protein for the dogs-the nutritional balance needs to be right. Itchy paws/dry skin is one of the most comon symptoms for this.
While I know that food allergies do not make the majority of allergies, it is the first thing you easyly can rule out, by diet change. including change of protein levels. 
Dry skin can be a nutrient deficiency,too. So it all could go back to balanced diet. 

To support the skin- instead of buying expencive tabs, just get brewer yeast. way cheaper and veery effective! I give it, when the air gets dry to help the skin of my dogs.
I hope you find the cause of your puppers problems.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Kat Hunsecker said:


> The ways (dog)foods are processed in the US are different, plus the things that can go in the meat source.
> Hormones, all kinds of steroids, some even put euthanized/deceased animals in the foodchain. On top of this there are lots of chemicals/preservatives in there that can cause allergies.
> Food that is too high in protein for the dogs-the nutritional balance needs to be right. Itchy paws/dry skin is one of the most comon symptoms for this.
> While I know that food allergies do not make the majority of allergies, it is the first thing you easyly can rule out, by diet change. including change of protein levels.
> ...


Food allergies and food sensitivities are not the same thing. The immune system is involved in allergies.

Protein levels have nothing at all to do with allergies.

Very good suggestion to provide a good diet!


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Dog didn't have symtoms....started giving dog Advantage....dog developed symptoms in the area where the Advantage was administered......discontinue the Advantage first and give it time to dissipate......go from there ....or not. I bet it will solve the problem. ](*,)


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Dog didn't have symtoms....started giving dog Advantage....dog developed symptoms in the area where the Advantage was administered......discontinue the Advantage first and give it time to dissipate......go from there ....or not. I bet it will solve the problem. ](*,)



I have been trying to say in multiple posts (and the O.P. has responded that he understood) how NON-allergy-ish all the described symptoms were.

Food allergies are just something that too many dog-owners immediately think of when skin problems pop up, and they are actually close to the bottom of the list of likely triggers. _ And in dogs, when there is no itch, allergies get very close to the bottom of that list._

Good suggestion. I'd dump the flax, up the fish oil (and make sure to give E with it), and eliminate the topical flea med for long enough to assess any change.




Allergies are a bad enough problem; we don't need to toss every rash and bump into that category.


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

How about foul skin odor, gunky ears, flaky skin on the underside of body and inside ears only? I'm talking huge flakes of skin and hair loss on tummy, face around eyes, chest and up the sides? Never goes all the way up to the back like a hot spot and dog has never been trated with advantage or other flea meds. We don't have flea problems.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Michelle Kehoe said:


> How about foul skin odor, gunky ears, flaky skin on the underside of body and inside ears only? I'm talking huge flakes of skin and hair loss on tummy, face around eyes, chest and up the sides? Never goes all the way up to the back like a hot spot and dog has never been trated with advantage or other flea meds. We don't have flea problems.



Please start a new thread. 

Yeast overgrowth (malassezia, etc.) is very different from what this O.P. is describing.

Thanks.


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## Kat Hunsecker (Oct 23, 2009)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Food allergies and food sensitivities are not the same thing. The immune system is involved in allergies.
> 
> Protein levels have nothing at all to do with allergies.


That is why I wrote food related issues. 

I have my troubles understanding how protein levels have nothing to do with allergies or allergic reactions. Can you explain?


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Kat Hunsecker said:


> That is why I wrote food related issues.
> 
> I have my troubles understanding how *protein levels have nothing to do with allergies* or allergic reactions. Can you explain?


OK.  This is completely off topic, but I guess we have addressed the O.P. pretty well. 

An allergic reaction to food is an immune system response to a specific allergen (not to a macrobiotic imbalance like high levels of protein). The system mistakes the food (usually a protein) for an enemy invader and manufactures antibodies against it. In dogs, the symptoms would usually involve the skin, where the most histamine receptors are (unlike us).

Food allergy symptoms develop when the antibodies (Immunoglobulin E, or IgE for short) are battling the "invading" allergen. Mast cells, which respond to allergies and inflammation, release chemicals when stimulated by the IgE, and histamine is one of them. This is necessary, but in chronic excess, problems arise.

This tendency to produce IgE against non-enemy things like a specific food appears to have a heredity factor.

Food allergy is an immunological response to the food; proteins are most commonly implicated (including, of course, grain proteins). Food intolerance (insensitivity), OTOH, can be a metabolic, toxic, or digestion reaction (rather than an immune mechanism).

_The particular food triggers the response_. For example, if the dog is allergic to milk protein, then an overabundance or shortage or any other amount-based description of, say, fish, will have nothing at all to do with that allergy.

I'm trying to say that it's a specific protein molecule, and not protein levels, that triggers an allergic response.

I hope I did say that. It got a tad meander-y.


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## Kat Hunsecker (Oct 23, 2009)

Ok got ya, was just terminology!
I am with you on the explanaiton. 
Was confusing to me. But i wasn't very clear either...lol 
Thanks !


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Kat Hunsecker said:


> Ok got ya, was just terminology!
> I am with you on the explanaiton.
> Was confusing to me. But i wasn't very clear either...lol
> Thanks !



I figured that it was terminology.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Chris Murphy said:


> My Vizsla has allergies and was put on Cephalexin 500mg 2x a day. The DVM also recommended 3V Skin formula pills. He has lost hair across his back and on top of his neck as well as small bumps and very dry skin.


 
Is this not the site of the main action of your frontline/advantage?

That would be my first port of call as Don has already suggested, why would you think it was food allergy?

This is a good thread, I'm currently experiencing a little difficulty with a possible food allergy with a senior terrier, no real skin problems as such.... more digestive!


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

maggie fraser said:


> I'm currently experiencing a little difficulty with a possible food allergy with a senior terrier, no real skin problems as such.... more digestive!



You might want to start a new thread.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

maggie fraser said:


> ... why would you think it was food allergy?


He didn't.

Food allergies came up in a reply to the O.P.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Kat Hunsecker said:


> Most skin problems , in my experience are food related.
> Change your diet to a high quality diet. Best would be an exclusion diet with raw, but a high quality natural (no preservative /controlled meatsource) food will do ,too. Choose one without chicken fish based ones are good or beef based. Chicken and Turkey are number one allergens.Of course corn free, etc.! Soeme of them foods are called holistic but make sure you really read the ingredients.
> Until chnges come (it may take up tp 4-5 weeks) hang in there.


And as Connie (and just about all the veterinary literature state), food allergies are not the most common cause of dermatological problems. Flea bite allergies and atopy (environmental allergies) are more common. Chicken vs beef vs blue whale vs golden lion tamarin as protein source has nothing to do with it. One of our food animal attending clinicians is from New Zealand. Their dog foods tend to have a lot of lamb and kangaroo in them. Guess what they feed to dogs with food allergies down there to clear them up? Chicken and corn based diets, because they are not as common allergens down there. :lol: In the US, it used to be lamb and now it's kangaroo that's popular for "hypoallergenic" diets. There is no such thing as a hypoallergenic diet. It only depends on what that individual animal sees as not tolerated by the immune system.


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## Chris Murphy (Sep 27, 2009)

Thanks Guys I am doing away with the Advantage and he is on a Salmon based Diet now not cause of food Allergies but just to help with his skin. I have him on the 3V skin caps and he is looking great so far. Of course he looked great before till the Antibiotic ran out the first time . ( And I reapplied the Advantage) I believe waiting on the non Flea med post antibiotic skin is what is best for him now that will rule out the most obvious cause. His hair seems to be coming back but it may just be me being optimistic. The outdoor allergies are just hard for me to believe before I got him he lived outdoors his whole life in a 1 acre pen and then in a 8x4 kennel at night. Now I run him in brush and actually hunt him like he needs, but he lives in the house now so it just makes that cause hard for me to believe. Although his bumps seemed worse after I ran hunted him, this could be from the Briars ( Im hoping anyways ) 

I will keep y'all updated as this goes along I really hope I can get this fixed as I i want to send him to summer camp in South Dakota next year with a pro trainer.


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