# Long bites & how the dog engages



## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

Sparked from a thread on another forum about dogs that launch being safer to catch... thats not the point of discussion I'm interested in though. I was thinking, if I'm teaching my dog to engage someone in the real world, I doubt many bad guy execute perfectly smooth catches lol... so in that regard, I'd like my dog to be able to engage on a long bite with an unforgiving "helper" and walk away without a jammed neck or broken teeth... So,

Is this more of a "build" thing? bigger bones break less easily? Or would you actively teach one technique over another (launch/don't launch, target a specific part of the body, etc). Other thoughts?


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Hunter Allred said:


> Sparked from a thread on another forum about dogs that launch being safer to catch... thats not the point of discussion I'm interested in though. I was thinking, if I'm teaching my dog to engage someone in the real world, I doubt many bad guy execute perfectly smooth catches lol... so in that regard, I'd like my dog to be able to engage on a long bite with an unforgiving "helper" and walk away without a jammed neck or broken teeth... So,
> 
> Is this more of a "build" thing? bigger bones break less easily? Or would you actively teach one technique over another (launch/don't launch, target a specific part of the body, etc). Other thoughts?


There is no such thing as an unforgiving target in the real world. They ALWAYS try to get away from the dog.



Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

Christopher Smith said:


> There is no such thing as an unforgiving target in the real world. They ALWAYS try to get away from the dog.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Yeah I know, but what I mean is they aren't going to have the dogs safety in mind.

So you're saying, they always tend to run and so the impact is lessened by that? Thus the risks is just assumed?


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## Khoi Pham (Apr 17, 2006)

Not always, this guy stood his ground and try to hit the dog with an axe. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f2C3Ft2GVxI


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Christopher Smith said:


> There is no such thing as an unforgiving target in the real world. They ALWAYS try to get away from the dog.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Not true. Plenty of idiots out there high on whatever it is they smoked or shot that feel they are invincible and thats not mentioning the total ****wits who think they can take your dog because they are big guys. Some idiots just don't see a way out and actively seek confrontation on their terms....


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## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

Khoi Pham said:


> Not always, this guy stood his ground and try to hit the dog with an axe. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f2C3Ft2GVxI


Oh I know... I was thinking less of folks who don't run, but run in one direction and another officer deploys from the direction he's running... Or rounding a corner... Many chances for a bad guy to accidentally stuff a dog


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Khoi Pham said:


> Not always, this guy stood his ground and try to hit the dog with an axe. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f2C3Ft2GVxI


 That "Thwack" on the guy's head never gets old!


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

This thread is interesting to me. 

It is interesting to me because I read something a while back written by Stefan, alluding that he did not like the way a dog approached/entered on the long bite, and it was in reference to the genetics of the dog moreso, than anything, if I remember correctly. 

I assume it was said because the training was most likely done in a fashion to get the strongest entry by good trainers, and it was not as impressive as some others. 

I did not comment because I am not all that familiar with the ins and outs of GSD lineage, I can research the thread if it is an issue, if I read it wrong.

That being said I believe THROUGH TRAINING it is 100% possible to affect ANY dogs entry/approach, I am not saying that you can make a weak dog have awesome entries against a strong presence that gets in their head, not in the least.

What I am saying is that I could influence any dogs entries, especially tailoring a strong dogs, in a few ways.

I personally like to curtail the high flying super reckless attacks for my PP dogs.

The result is not good for competition, is not gonna impress a decoy with its recklessness but I think makes for a more effective entry in real situations.

I know both sides of the argument, as far as getting the dogs thinking and such.

I just know that high flyers are easier to evade, and do prefer a dog that does not launch 10-15 feet before impact, if it is being trained for possible real usage.

Leg dogs are another story, in a few ways, regarding hypotheticals for usage..


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## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

Hard + Fast. Genetic response with minimal training influence. Same goes for Slow and Weak, it is a genetic response.


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## Haz Othman (Mar 25, 2013)

Faisal Khan said:


> Hard + Fast. Genetic response with minimal training influence. Same goes for Slow and Weak, it is a genetic response.


 
Lol tell that to the ladies on the other forum. They seem to be in love with slow low intensity dogs..I get that they are easier to handle but comon! They keep trying to imply that fast dogs are somehow are somehow lesser..which is funny to me anyways..


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## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

Well pet people love slow and low intensity, nothing wrong with that!


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## Haz Othman (Mar 25, 2013)

Faisal Khan said:


> Well pet people love slow and low intensity, nothing wrong with that!


 
No no they are the real deal! They come out of the womb knowing how to do scentwork and have perfect obedience and threat discernability. Its all the old herding lines no prey monkeys here! Gotta love great genetics!


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## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

Well if the dog's accomplishments are ZERO and verbal descriptions are a 1000 words or more then LOL


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## Haz Othman (Mar 25, 2013)

Nope still wrong they are too "real" to do well in IPO. The Helper isnt exciting enough.


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## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

It is simple but we make it complicated. A truck cannot do what a F1 car can do. A F1 car cannot do what a truck can do. A dual sport cannot do anything well. Choose your poison and run with it  but fercrisesakes stop the blame/excuse game.


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## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

To bring this back on course, assuming you have a hard and fast dog, how do you best keep it safe regardless of the helper. My bitch used to be a flier. As I brought more intensity out of her and shifted her steadily to more aggression vice prey, the flying has steadily declined. In a way I feel it's good as she's fast enough and light enough in build I'm always concerned for her safety and will pull her if a helper is lacking ability to catch her safely


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## Eric Read (Aug 14, 2006)

it's always easier to catch them the longer they spend in the air. hard and fast and coming in low and hitting at the last possible moment are more difficult to catch. 

It's a sport, what's wrong with a flier? Hard and fast always increases the potential for injury to everyone involved. a dog that flies? easy, set up and catch. 

and why would "aggression" make your dog fly less? It's not like it's a prey based behavior and dogs naturally launch for lunch. Plenty of dogs hit harder and faster with much more intent as things are intensified, i've never noticed it changing their normal entry on a long bite unless the picture from the helper is also changing and making the dog guess more about targeting.

anyway, the best way to keep it safe regardless of the helper? keep it in a crate. Otherwise slow them down, but then who wants a slow dog


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## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

Well I have 2 hard and fast dogs, no assumptions. The more the decoy brings it on the harder they hit. I don't see any issues!


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Haz Othman said:


> Nope still wrong they are too "real" to do well in IPO. The Helper isnt exciting enough.


I think you are grossly misquoting. That is probably one of the best threads on GSD character and working ability along with the history of Sch that I've read in years. 

T


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Hunter Allred said:


> To bring this back on course, assuming you have a hard and fast dog, how do you best keep it safe regardless of the helper. My bitch used to be a flier. As I brought more intensity out of her and shifted her steadily to more aggression vice prey, the flying has steadily declined. In a way I feel it's good as she's fast enough and light enough in build I'm always concerned for her safety and will pull her if a helper is lacking ability to catch her safely


I'm still trying to picture this. You say you brought more intensity out of her and shifted her to aggression vs/vice? prey, yet her entries and/or the flying has changed. What does this tell you about the dog? I'm curious. HOW did you get more intensity and aggression out of her? Was it within context of the long bite exercise, or some other scenario?

Oh and like Joby, would love to see Stefan and the other helpers weigh in on the long bite in terms of ideal [and why] and non-ideal, and maybe video references.

T


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## Haz Othman (Mar 25, 2013)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> I think you are grossly misquoting. That is probably one of the best threads on GSD character and working ability along with the history of Sch that I've read in years.
> 
> T


You talking the Preymonkey's thread?

If so Im not specifically referring to that, Im more talking about the same general theme that tends to repeat itself over there. To be quite frank I would give it some credence if any of those people had produced a dog of note or done something of note themselves. Even have titled breeding stock or some progeny at the minimum?

I respect results..and very few over there seem to have any that is significant..

Sorry for the sidebar...back to longbites.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Haz Othman said:


> You talking the Preymonkey's thread?
> 
> If so Im not specifically referring to that, Im more talking about the same general theme that tends to repeat itself over there. To be quite frank I would give it some credence if any of those people had produced a dog of note or done something of note themselves. Even have titled breeding stock or some progeny at the minimum?
> 
> ...


Actually some of them have when I think of the main contributors. I also tend to give more credence to working LE and/or military dogs--but that's just me. Its kinda a work vs. sport thing. But glad you aren't referring to that even though there was that "prey monkey" reference.  Again, there was a wealth of information there from several sources.

T


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## Haz Othman (Mar 25, 2013)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Actually some of them have when I think of the main contributors. I also tend to give more credence to working LE and/or military dogs--but that's just me. Its kinda a work vs. sport thing. But glad you aren't referring to that even though there was that "prey monkey" reference.  Again, there was a wealth of information there from several sources.
> 
> T


I said very few..like maybe two or three....lol..and maybe one of those was regular contributor.. Prey monkeys is my knew favorite word.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Khoi Pham said:


> Not always, this guy stood his ground and try to hit the dog with an axe. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f2C3Ft2GVxI


I like the noise it makes when he gets hit in the head


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Haz Othman said:


> I said very few..like maybe two or three....lol..and maybe one of those was regular contributor.. Prey monkeys is my knew favorite word.


I was hoping you would post your long bite video favorites and comments here to generate discussion of 1) launch or no launch; 2) what if anything does it say about the dog's character; 3) genetics vs. training; 4) whether any checking in behavior is necessarily indicative of nerve assuming there is a consensus regarding whether the dog is checking in; and 5) if the dog has the speediest, flashiest launch yet hangs on the sleep like a flapping fish out of water, do we care?

T


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## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> I'm still trying to picture this. You say you brought more intensity out of her and shifted her to aggression vs/vice? prey, yet her entries and/or the flying has changed. What does this tell you about the dog? I'm curious. HOW did you get more intensity and aggression out of her? Was it within context of the long bite exercise, or some other scenario?
> 
> Oh and like Joby, would love to see Stefan and the other helpers weigh in on the long bite in terms of ideal [and why] and non-ideal, and maybe video references.
> 
> T


I'm not talking about shifting from flying to all four feet on the ground and scraping the earth.. Just from launching far back with a lot of hang time to much closer to the helper when she gathers... Still engaging and sleeve presented at the same height. Because I was actively working her in higher and higher states of aggression, and witnessed this distinct pattern, I believe there is a link. Even when actively trying to encourage her to launch more (pre injury of course) she resisted. To me it makes sense as a dog can fight more effectively with more feet on the ground.

Working higher aggression many ways... Short muzzle session before a bite, heavy agitation with no equipment or bites before a bite, just turning her on and turning her off amplifies what she shows me the next time I turn her on. Many of our sessions start with "pass auf" to an aggressor then a control command to go start the actual session.


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## Stefan Schaub (Sep 12, 2010)

Higher aggression does not make more speed!!!Why should it??

Helper is far away,toooo far away!Aggression makes in some cases better barking, on the other side it also make bad grips.

Long attack is combination of real drive behavior and a big heart to go down there to hit the target.same with all the other bites!!!

modern training and the good trainers are able to cover low drive and weakness up.some of these dogs go to the big championships. if nothing happened they look ok to good, maybe real good.


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## Daniel Lybbert (Nov 23, 2010)

I like fast dogs. That being said I dont think many are truly fast. I also think any dog that gets trained on a target that never moves and is always presented should be fast. They have no excuse not to be. Start taking the bite away and they will slow down and hunt for the bite. I dont like dogs to jump for the bite. I like leg dogs on entries unless they decoy has a stick or an obstical in the way of the legs then the chest or bicep is a good bite. 
As for the safest? Im not sure I have seen wrecks both ways but I think that dogs that bite biceps are probably a little less likely to get jammed. Cuz they cant cut the corner to bite so they go by and come back for the bite.


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## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

Stefan Schaub said:


> Higher aggression does not make more speed!!!Why should it??
> 
> Helper is far away,toooo far away!Aggression makes in some cases better barking, on the other side it also make bad grips.
> 
> ...


I don't think I said anything about aggression & speed. I was referring only to how much she got airborne. Speed didn't change, grip didn't change, just how high and far back she gathered before launching.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Hunter Allred said:


> I don't think I said anything about aggression & speed. I was referring only to how much she got airborne. Speed didn't change, grip didn't change, just how high and far back she gathered before launching.


So what state of mind do you think she is in when she launches higher and further away from the decoy? What's typical "heavy agitation" and what is the decoy doing in "muzzle work?"

T


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## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> So what state of mind do you think she is in when she launches higher and further away from the decoy? What's typical "heavy agitation" and what is the decoy doing in "muzzle work?"
> 
> T


I think she is in more prey-based, and a more "relaxed" playful state of mind when she's launching earlier. 

Heavy agitation meaning, decoy is without gear, actively posturing and aggressing, sometimes with contact with a whip/stick or attempting to grab her. In muzzlework, typical muzzlework with a strike and ground fighting


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Hunter Allred said:


> To bring this back on course, assuming you have a hard and fast dog, how do you best keep it safe regardless of the helper. My bitch used to be a flier. As I brought more intensity out of her and shifted her steadily to more aggression vice prey, the flying has steadily declined. In a way I feel it's good as she's fast enough and light enough in build I'm always concerned for her safety and will pull her if a helper is lacking ability to catch her safely


I see this going no place...
You want to train "for real" and if your dog gets all screwed up in the process of training, what have you proven? That you can "F" your training partner up!


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## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

Howard Gaines III said:


> I see this going no place...
> You want to train "for real" and if your dog gets all screwed up in the process of training, what have you proven? That you can "F" your training partner up!


Well this was supposed to be a general discussion, but me personally my dogs safety is the primary importance... I was just curious to the comparison of training/technique/dog selection/etc of the sport catch where the helper is trying to ensure the dogs safety to the real work "catch" where the "helper" is very likely not to "catch gracefully"


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## Eric Read (Aug 14, 2006)

"real work catch"?? are you a cop? who exactly are you going to send your dog on across a football field? and if you do, the health of your dog is probably going to be the least of your concerns once it's done. and if you are a cop, chances are the dog isn't being sent across a field either. yeah, I know, there's a video or two that pop up every few years proving different right?

Otherwise the rest is a sport.


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## Lisa Radcliffe (Jun 9, 2011)

Hunter Allred said:


> To bring this back on course, assuming you have a hard and fast dog, how do you best keep it safe regardless of the helper. My bitch used to be a flier. As I brought more intensity out of her and shifted her steadily to more aggression vice prey, the flying has steadily declined. In a way I feel it's good as she's fast enough and light enough in build I'm always concerned for her safety and will pull her if a helper is lacking ability to catch her safely


No real way to tell if a "helper is lacking ability to catch her safely" I don't do many long bites with my dog and when I do they are short. I had a world class helper make a mistake, then said he needed to "swing my dog out on a short one to see if his neck was ok" then told me about breaking a dogs neck in europe! He is a very good helper too! That was enough for me. I am glad they changed the IPO rules to closer long bites for the IPO-1 I still can not believe the people that get "certified" to be a IPO helper at a weekend seminar?? blows my mind. Since I started FR almost 2 years ago I found that those decoys can "read dogs" something you can never learn in a weekend seminar and for some never- I can not understand your training method of "more aggression" for the long bite! if a dog lives for the bite he can not wait to get down there and bite! it's all on him except for target training but then I really do not see that bite as a show of courage for a dog anyway just a crowd pleaser and ego boost for some-


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Eric Read said:


> "real work catch"?? are you a cop? who exactly are you going to send your dog on across a football field? and if you do, the health of your dog is probably going to be the least of your concerns once it's done. and if you are a cop, chances are the dog isn't being sent across a field either. yeah, I know, there's a video or two that pop up every few years proving different right?
> 
> Otherwise the rest is a sport.


 Just had a 60 yard runoff on an armed burglar last week. Had quite a few like that over the years, and that's just my mid sized agency with four teams. It happens more than you think, especially at night. Just because it's not on youtube doesn't mean it aint so.


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## Lisa Radcliffe (Jun 9, 2011)

Hunter Allred said:


> Well this was supposed to be a general discussion, but me personally my dogs safety is the primary importance... I was just curious to the comparison of training/technique/dog selection/etc of the sport catch where the helper is trying to ensure the dogs safety to the real work "catch" where the "helper" is very likely not to "catch gracefully"


I find your thread to be interesting I just don't get it! The people I know that train for real work never train for this kind of bite and I agree how would you ever know when you send a working canine that there would ever be any kind of "catch" from a bad guy! as far as selection I do know some people who think you can select a good IPO sport prospect puppy by the genetics of the pedigree ( if there are awesome long bite dogs there) but I don't buy into that- the heart of a dog is something different-


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Lisa Radcliffe said:


> I find your thread to be interesting I just don't get it! The people I know that train for real work never train for this kind of bite and I agree how would you ever know when you send a working canine that there would ever be any kind of "catch" from a bad guy! .....-


 My dog hits the suit high in training. On the street he hits from the belt line down. Figure that one out. They hit where they want to hit when it's for real.

PS, I don't train for long launches and high hits. My boy gets plenty of muzzle work so he hits anywhere he can, or feels like hitting given the circumstances at hand.


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## Lisa Radcliffe (Jun 9, 2011)

Howard Knauf said:


> Just had a 60 yard runoff on an armed burglar last week. Had quite a few like that over the years, and that's just my mid sized agency with four teams. It happens more than you think, especially at night. Just because it's not on youtube doesn't mean it aint so.


Howard, do you have a training technique involving a "catch" for this kind of send? Thanks Howard we are posting at the same time! this is what I would think too no way to tell how or what a dog will bite on any given time ( in real world work ) just that they will


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

This thread was started by Hunter, in the initial post he asked about how people would train approaches, entries, and targeting for dogs that may be used in the real world, and again, that idea has been pooped on...lol

just an observation.

long bite for what he is talking about does not have to mean IPO long bite.
it could just mean long enough to get dog up to full speed.


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## Lisa Radcliffe (Jun 9, 2011)

Lisa Radcliffe said:


> No real way to tell if a "helper is lacking ability to catch her safely" I don't do many long bites with my dog and when I do they are short. I had a world class helper make a mistake, then said he needed to "swing my dog out on a short one to see if his neck was ok" then told me about breaking a dogs neck in europe! He is a very good helper too! That was enough for me. I am glad they changed the IPO rules to closer long bites for the IPO-1 I still can not believe the people that get "certified" to be a IPO helper at a weekend seminar?? blows my mind. Since I started FR almost 2 years ago I found that those decoys can "read dogs" something you can never learn in a weekend seminar and for some never- I can not understand your training method of "more aggression" for the long bite! if a dog lives for the bite he can not wait to get down there and bite! it's all on him except for target training but then I really do not see that bite as a show of courage for a dog anyway just a crowd pleaser and ego boost for some-





Joby Becker said:


> This thread was started by Hunter, in the initial post he asked about how people would train approaches, entries, and targeting for dogs that may be used in the real world, and again, that idea has been pooped on...lol
> 
> just an observation.
> 
> ...


Yikes- you are right I did get off topic! sorry-


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## David Baker (Aug 31, 2013)

It doesn't look as bad ass as the launchers do, but in real life situations, it's always best for a dog to keep 4 feet on the ground. Period.


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## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

Joby Becker said:


> This thread was started by Hunter, in the initial post he asked about how people would train approaches, entries, and targeting for dogs that may be used in the real world, and again, that idea has been pooped on...lol
> 
> just an observation.
> 
> ...


Thanks...

Some how it turned into something entirely different... Maybe I don't communicate well


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## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

David Baker said:


> It doesn't look as bad ass as the launchers do, but in real life situations, it's always best for a dog to keep 4 feet on the ground. Period.


That's the sort of answer I was interested in.

So do you train that explicitly, or does the dog do it naturally, and if the dog naturally flies do you just let it roll or try to send a dog from closer to minimize risk to the dog?


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## jack van strien (Apr 9, 2009)

Hunter you can more or less teach a dog not to fly towards the bad guy.
I fyou look at two completely differen t dog sports,French ring and KNPV.
In ring the decoy is trying to evade the dog by stepping to the side or even jump over the dog,you can see the dogs not really slowing down much but they are keeping a very close watch on every move the decoy makes.
In KNPV the decoy always moves in a straight line towards the dog and the dog can make a giant leap during the attack because he knows where the decoy will be.
You can just imagine what the effect would be if you change the rules for these dogs.


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## Eric Read (Aug 14, 2006)

yes that changes the rules, but does it make it any safer?

and I guess I'll get accused of taking the thread off topic, like I care 

Why are you sending your dog on a long bite outside of sport? are you a cop? Do you honestly think it's ever going to end well for you or your dog if you do? I don't care if it's 20 feet or 200 yards. Beyond the up close and person, protection of your home or body, not many are going to be too accepting of the fact you "sent your dog on someone"

there's a man on your property and you feel threatened? from 100 feet away? he has a gun? send your dog, good idea  make sure you teach him to target the hand with the weapon too LOL

I can't imagine any scenario where it would be beneficial as a civilian to "send your dog" on someone that's beyond a leash length, but maybe that's just dumb ol me.

and FR decoys evade and the dogs stays down, and dogs get landed on, decoys get their legs taken out, dogs and humans are injured. and those decoys are damn good, and some still get taken out by a dog coming hard and fast. Soft tissue injuries, broken bones, etc. 

KNPV? not much of that around here, can't say I've ever seen it in anything other than a video. But the impacts look like they can hurt, dog and man.

IPO? Launching IMO is a win/win. If your dog comes fast and hard, a dog that launches is a nice easy smooth catch. A hard fast dog that doesn't is a bit tougher. I'd like the dogs the same. As long as they're committed and coming hard, It doesn't sway my opinion of the dog one way or the other

But the take home point is, if your dogs has speed and maintains it throughout the bite, there's risk. Period. I don't care if the dog never leaves it's feet or not. as for "real life"? I think you're mistaken in sending a dog on someone from far enough away it's a long bite. But i'd say a 4 on the floor rule is going to end up with a higher percentage of hits over "misses" over a dog that launches. For sure. it's hard to redirect once you're in the air.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Will guess that when the "bad guy" catches your dog, it's short and more of a sudden take up of space!

How can you defend the use of a long send for non-law enforcement applications? You can't in a broadbrushed use. If someone comes at you from 50 feet away, they should have been given proper warning well before they got to you. So then we see nothing but a *short send* of 10 yards...maybe 21 feet. In that time, 1.5 seconds, the bad guy is in your space. 

Real world application...ain't happening. =;


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

I hate getting into hypothetical "PP" scenarios.. 

However, I can think of several instances Howard where I might like to have a dog engage someone from a longer distance than your arbitrary 10 yards or 21 feet, where ever those distances came from, pulled out of somebodies ass...

I don't own the "PP Dog" rulebook...where can I get a copy??? 

Nobody said that the dog HAS to be right next to its owner, or that the owner might not be much closer to the threat than the dog is intially.

My yard is bigger than 21 ft, or 10 yards long, as are many other places I take my dogs..

I will agree that when giving people advice, for liability reasons, I often find what I suggest is different than what I might do myself.

again I hate PP hypotheticals, because most are not realistic...but I can surely think of more than a few situations where I might want my dog to cover a lot of ground to bite someone. If my, or a loved ones life is in danger or I or a loved one could be seriously injured I would not be worried about the legal/civil ramifications, that would be part of the "aftermath", after the dog was used.

If I choose to use a dog to engage, I assume that injury or death to the dog would be a real possibility.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Joby Becker said:


> pulled out of somebodies ass...
> 
> but I can surely think of more than a few situations where I might want my dog to cover a lot of ground to bite someone..


Justify sending the dog long distances in public Joby. When you have the chance to leave or seek shelter/safety. Tell me how that one works. No different than going on the attack with a club, gun, or knife when you can move on. :-k 

Situations where you want and where you will hold LEGAL ground might be two different things!

My backyard is well over 2200' deep. How could I justify sending a dog that far to "deal" with someone?


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## David Winners (Apr 4, 2012)

The training I have been a part of, MIL, concentrates on being sure the dog will engage and stay in the fight, and that it will target any part of the bad guy that is exposed. The dog needs to ge through, under, around anything that may be in the way to get to the bad guy. I have never had one of my trainers teach a dog to target anything but the man in general.

Some dogs launch in certain situations and some don't. My dog launches in a frontal attack if she is being challenged and will take a bicep bite if it presents itself. She will favor the fighting limb on entry, if someone is swinging or kicking at her. If it is a bite on a fleeing target, she will take a leg usually.

I've seen strong dogs in the fight that don't launch under any circumstances, and slow down some right before entry so they can get a good bite that will be advantageous to fight the guy.



As far as justifying a long bite in a PP scenario, what if the dog is 200 feet away from me when the threat poses itself. Some bites happen when the dog is away from the handler.


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## Tim Lynam (Jun 12, 2009)

Howard Gaines III said:


> Justify sending the dog long distances in public Joby. When you have the chance to leave or seek shelter/safety. Tell me how that one works. No different than going on the attack with a club, gun, or knife when you can move on. :-k
> 
> Situations where you want and where you will hold LEGAL ground might be two different things!
> 
> My backyard is well over 2200' deep. How could I justify sending a dog that far to "deal" with someone?


I'm sure what you say is true IN DELAWARE... I thank God Delaware is so small. There is a world outside your jurisdiction Howard. In Texas what you say would be considered a joke. Trespassers can be shot on sight even if your yard is so big you have to use a .50 cal to reach them. Sending a dog would be considered "Polite."


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

If I took the dog out to piss and some guy started shooting into any of the neighbors houses, I would send the dog.

If I was any distance away for my dog and someone pulled a weapon on me, I would send my dog.

If anyone I know or care about was being attacked, I would send my dog.

If the dog was in the car, and I was attacked or whatever, i would call the dog out to engage,,,,

If i was at a park and some guy went berserk trying to kill people with knife or gun, I would send my dog.

If I was at a dog park, or a park or whatever and dog was 100yrds away and shit went down, I would call the dog.


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## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

Joby's got a radio controlled dog.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Faisal Khan said:


> Joby's got a radio controlled dog.


just situations that I might send the dog into, if it was the right dog at the time, that would defy Howards 10 yrd. OR 21 ft. rule. 

disclaimer. ALL instances of any of my dogs biting someone have been onleash.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

If I'm in a life threatening situation and my dog is to far away I'm dialing 1911.
850 ft per second is much faster then a 30 -35 mph dog. 

Something else...and some may groan over the comparison but does a wolf or coyote launch from 15-20 ft at sheep when going in for a kill or does it run up and grab?
I think the flying bite is a product sport. I'd be very curious to know if anyone knows when it's use started. Early Schutzhund, DVG (older then Schutzhund), ring,etc.


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## Daniel Lybbert (Nov 23, 2010)

If a dog launches in ring it wont be able to bite. They bite high when there is a barrage or opposition with the stick or a scoop.


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## Stefan Schaub (Sep 12, 2010)

Joby Becker said:


> If I took the dog out to piss and some guy started shooting into any of the neighbors houses, I would send the dog.
> 
> If I was any distance away for my dog and someone pulled a weapon on me, I would send my dog.
> 
> ...


I would take german precision out, H&K USP 40 with 13 rounds in it!!!


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

So what reason would you want or need to do a B&H with your dog? Assuming in a real "fight" your dog might be hurt or killed...a B&H from several feet away, I could see. I would rather hear the bad guy hollering and know THAT'S the location than see my dog in a near death position.


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## Tim Lynam (Jun 12, 2009)

Howard Gaines III said:


> So what reason would you want or need to do a B&H with your dog? Assuming in a real "fight" your dog might be hurt or killed...a B&H from several feet away, I could see. I would rather hear the bad guy hollering and know THAT'S the location than see my dog in a near death position.


IMO I think you hit the division between sport and PP people on the head. I started my decoy "career" with stone cold PP trainers. Their dogs would attack at a great distance if needed but the training was focused on a distance of "normal conversation." Considering the fact 99% of the dogs trained to bite will never have to bite to protect you in their lifetime, why train for a 1 in a million long send situation. The dogs were not Flyers and were taught to fight the bad guy, not just bite and hold on. The dog was by default "expendable" if called on to do their job. The dog would either be injured or killed in the foray or be put down later by the authorities... Few sport people have that mentality. In fact, look at all of the posts and wringing of hands over the dog being injured by a decoy from sport people. PP is an extreme work for all involved. Decoys try to protect the dog but in scenario training, sh#t happens and both can be injured. Most PP people have more than one dog in training just for that reason. There are a ton of threads in the forum archives about PP vs. Sport training. I would suggest the OP check them out. Fast, flying entry dogs need not apply for PP work.


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## jamie lind (Feb 19, 2009)

I prefer pillboxes connected with underground tunnels. The lasers on the dogs head makes it so any kind of entry works. Here's a vid
eo of training.
https://m.facebook.com/video_redire...723:mf_story_key.8964027386476666630&__tn__=F


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## jamie lind (Feb 19, 2009)

I just realized I should explain what I'm doing in the training video. Each pillbox has a large ammo supply. When my son runs out he can send her to retrieve more ammo without revealing his position. That's what she is retrieving.


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## jamie lind (Feb 19, 2009)

https://m.facebook.com/video_redire...d8&refid=52&ref=m_notif&notif_t=like&__tn__=F

Sorry link didnt work. Maybe it will now


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

jamie lind said:


> https://m.facebook.com/video_redire...d8&refid=52&ref=m_notif&notif_t=like&__tn__=F
> 
> Sorry link didnt work. Maybe it will now



Hey Jamie, 

Do you have it available somewhere else other than Facebook? Cant watch it, because I dont have FB. 


Regards


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## jamie lind (Feb 19, 2009)

You arnt missing much at all.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Tim Lynam said:


> ... Decoys try to protect the dog but in scenario training, sh#t happens and both can be injured. Most PP people have more than one dog in training just for that reason. There are a ton of threads in the forum archives about PP vs. Sport training. I would suggest the OP check them out. Fast, flying entry dogs need not apply for PP work.


Tim I have to agree, most do try and protect the dog. The HOWEVER in my book falls to the handler in PPD training. Decoys/helpers need protecting too, the reason I say PLEASE BE A POST. Six inches is all it takes to get bit and some folks just don't get it.

I train 2 dogs, sometimes 3 if the action is slow. I ask lots of questions when I'm on the other side of the leash: are the eyes open, how's the grip, how's the bite feel? I can't read my dog from the other side, but I do know her drive and usually know my own answers to my questions.


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## Tim Lynam (Jun 12, 2009)

Howard Gaines III said:


> Tim I have to agree, most do try and protect the dog. The HOWEVER in my book falls to the handler in PPD training. Decoys/helpers need protecting too, the reason I say PLEASE BE A POST. Six inches is all it takes to get bit and some folks just don't get it.
> 
> I train 2 dogs, sometimes 3 if the action is slow. I ask lots of questions when I'm on the other side of the leash: are the eyes open, how's the grip, how's the bite feel? I can't read my dog from the other side, but I do know her drive and usually know my own answers to my questions.


My ass has been saved by good handlers more than once. We are always trying riskier things when working with a good handler and a decoy has to rely on them to be paying attention and making split second decisions. Reading a handlers ability level quickly BEFORE a session is a good skill to have for a decoy. It saves some wear and tear on the hide...LOL Questions like you mentioned should be a part of every session debrief. A decoy that doesn't readily have the answers is also a good indication of their skill level and therefore the level of risk you as the handler are willing to take with that decoy. Be a post. How many times have I had to say that??!!!](*,)


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