# Slow maturing dogs (mini mals)



## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Putting aside mental maturation considerations, what does slow maturing gnerally mean to the Mal/DS crowd? 

I'm asking specifically because from time to time I've read posts by people with mini versions of these dogs. I've never seen that discussion concerning GSDs, which is why I left them out of my question. With that said, most of these dogs were described as such in relative maturity (2- 3.5 years of age). Did these dogs remain mini in size as they aged?

The one I had or thought I had, didn't. I iniitally thought if she reached 40-45 lbs I'd be lucky. Then I put her on a scale for her last weight pull only to find that in about 18 months she had put on nearly 20 lbs. Now, she's roughly 65 lbs. Perhaps this is partially due to her lineage? Carlos x Arko daughter (Luko). By that I am more referencing Carlos based upon the offspring he was known to produce.

Weight pulling wasn't a factor. Every pull she entered, to include training, was documented, both of which were relatively limited. As a matter of fact, she pulled competitively considerably more than she ever trained, the latter only occuring three times.


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

Not sure if it's related to what you're asking, as her adult weight has been pretty consistent, but Trevva was very late for her first heat cycle. I think she was two before she came into heat. Her breeder had told me 12-18 months was not unusual, but as time went by, I was starting to wonder if there was an issue.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I've heard this expression before. Eberhard Trumler, the well known canine expert, rates the "mental" age of the adult dog, i.e. when he is prepared to defend the litter against intruders, etc. at around 36 months.

Physically, I would assume that dogs reaching end weights of about 30-40 KGs would be more or less mature at about 24 months which is the end phase of the bone structure growth.

However, my vet told me to avoid strenuous exercise, i.e. jumping, etc. until later as the dog (GSD) attained an end weight of 45 Kilos. Too late, he endured a torn ligament which he, the vet, wonderfully healed conventionally.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

leslie cassian said:


> Not sure if it's related to what you're asking, as her adult weight has been pretty consistent


This is what I was getting at. My dogs weight was consistent, pretty much as expected until she turned 2 .5 years old. In my original post, I asked if those who have what they call Mini Mals (like Jennifer C., Geoff E. and several others) found that the dogs stayed small as they aged.

The snipe went into her first heat at about 14-15 months of age. Mentally she doesn't seem a lot different than when she was 2. Until around two and a half she was maybe 45 lbs. Nearing 4 she turned out to be 65 lbs. 

Have other people experienced, what I did (again not asking about the GSD). For those that had "mini" Mals/DS did remain small or were they surprisingly late in physical maturity. You see dogs like my mastiff put on 20 lbs within 12-18 months starting around 18 mos - 2 1/2 years but I have never seen anyone talk about that with a dog that was originally considered to be on the small end of the spectrum to begin with. 

It seems slightly unusual to me and not something I've seen mentioned here. And yes, the dog works fine. I'm guessing, I should have either titled this thread differently or just assumed as I had that whatever happened with her isn't something all that common.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

bump thread up


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Connie Sutherland said:


> bump thread up


LOL thanks Connie. I think it's a lost cause. She's just "special" in that way, amongst others. :twisted:


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

could you outline a bit more clearly what you are talking about? From what I am getting I think you may be talking about Sali.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Hi Matt, I trimmed down my follow up post to see if that helps clear up what I was asking.



Nicole Stark said:


> This is what I was getting at.
> 
> Until around two and a half she was maybe 45 lbs. Nearing 4 she turned out to be 65 lbs. A nearly 20 lb. difference in a dog with her frame seemed odd to me.
> 
> Have other people experienced, what I did (again not asking about the GSD). For those that had "mini" Mals/DS did remain small or were they surprisingly late in physical maturity.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Yes I have, Sali is exactly the same, she turned about 2.5 just recently and is now very hench, she is built like a pitt under all her fur. She is appx 22" TTS/TTW

Before:



Now:




That's in the space of maybe 3 months. Same food, same exercise/conditioning. Having said that she has always been a muscly wee thing.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

That's exactly it. Exactly. Built like a pit. Muscle hardness is ridiculous.

Here's some videos about 2 years apart. And, no she doesn't always act like that. She can bring it up a notch, too.  I've got a video of her restrained from a metal pipe on a tether and by sound alone you'd think it was of someone in an insane asylum. Her actions confirm the madness going on in her head LOL.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FtldukL4GC0 - she's even got a little J Lo booty on that skinny frame of hers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jGPacMpm0M0

Anyway, thanks for the feedback. How much did Sali weigh at 2.5? I'm guessing some of these dogs do something that the mastiff people call "body up" which occurs at 2.5 years of age. At around 4 you will see their heads finish up the maturity process.

For a dog at 22"-23" I honestly wouldn't expect such a dramatic change in weight. 6-8 lbs sure. Not in the range of 15-20 lbs. I assume Sali must be similar to my dog, which is that she is also ridiculously strong for her size. Very deceiving, and of course, how I got hurt by her twice. It's taken me nearly 3 years to get over the low back injury I got when handling her at a weight pull.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Nicole Stark said:


> That's exactly it. Exactly. Built like a pit. Muscle hardness is ridiculous.
> 
> Here's some videos about 2 years apart. And, no she doesn't always act like that. She can bring it up a notch, too.  I've got a video of her restrained from a metal pipe on a tether and by sound alone you'd think it was of someone in an insane asylum. Her actions confirm the madness going on in her head LOL.
> 
> ...


Absolutely, beggars belief sometimes.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

:-o:-o Somebody mention J Lo's booty?

Oh wait...........:-k ..................never mind! :twisted: 

I've seen a couple of those smaller, built like a tank mals. 

Great looking dogs but I like a narrower front on most dogs,


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## Meg O'Donovan (Aug 20, 2012)

"Great looking dogs but I like a narrower front on most dogs"
Bob, is there a functional reason (e.g. gait?) you prefer that conformation or just optics? Wouldn't it make sense that a broader front would mean bigger lungs and heart? Which might be a good thing in an endurance athlete?


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Meg O'Donovan said:


> "Great looking dogs but I like a narrower front on most dogs"
> Bob, is there a functional reason (e.g. gait?) you prefer that conformation or just optics? Wouldn't it make sense that a broader front would mean bigger lungs and heart? Which might be a good thing in an endurance athlete?


Heart and lungs come from a deep chest aka the sight hounds. Width has nothing to do with it. 

The canine is meant to single track when moving much faster then a walk. It's a ground covering, energy saving gait.

Look at the average bull dog with a wide front. They rock from side to side during movement and often very bouncy in movement. Lost energy!

The bull dog is an exaggeration but it shows the direction that a wide front will take you. 

A good reach is something you also don't see often in a wide front. 

It's a very solid base when standing but not so much with movement. 

When judging a "working" terrier the judge will lift the dog from under the chest with one hand and grip both front legs at the elbows to pull the elbows together. If they can't touch then they can't work as effectively in the ground.

The "lowrider" short legged JRT terrier may have the grit needed but it's useless in the ground because of a lack of flexibility. 

I know the above examples don't apply to the the herders in the same way but you'll see more agility and maneuverability in a similar dog with a narrow front.

Look at mother nature's canines. The wolf, coyote, jackal, etc are all very narrow in the front.

As for the endurance athlete just compare the sprinter to the endurance runner.

Thin, wiry, slow twitch muscles in the distance runner compared to the thicker, fast twitch muscles in the sprinter.

The Quarter horse's powerful build vs the fine, elegant build of a great Arabian.


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## Meg O'Donovan (Aug 20, 2012)

Thanks for the explanation, Bob. I always learn something.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Not the front of a dog but this is the crap show dog people want to shove down our throats. 

Watch this video of "The best mover - Poetry in motion" !!!BS!!!

In CORRECT side movement the rear foot should land in the footprint of the front foot. SINGLE TRACKING!

Not only is this dog NOT doing that it's over reaching it's front and if you look closely the rear feet are BOTH landing to the left side of the front feet. It's crabbing because of an imbalance between the front and rear.

In spite of the time spent running around the show ring this dog will break down before a dog with correct movement in real work such as herding, in particular HGH or Continental herding as done in Europe. 

Ain't it purdy though!? :twisted:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hPJPE9oNN7A


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Well if it's any consolation Bob, that concept hasn't been lost on all breeders. I've mentioned before that my mastiff single tracks. Her breeder spends hundreds of hours alongside and behind his dogs while evaluating their movement, endurance, leg dominance, reach and drive, etc. before his females are bred (he rarely ever holds back males for breeding). Obviously, that's not the only thing he looks at but it is something he gives considerable attention to.


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## Meg O'Donovan (Aug 20, 2012)

Geez, he's also all down on his hocks in the hind. My Siamese cat walks like that now, since he had a bad, almost fatal, bout with feline diabetes. Nerve damage for my cat, but breeding for that poor dog. Yes, this is painful to watch.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Sali actually moves quite well at a trot, however the speed between trot and gallop is very bouncy. Here she is full pelt:


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

and a comparison to Digga who is bruce lee level of muscle 



and she is pretty rapid too:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MqE4uuTuF8


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Matt Vandart said:


> Sali actually moves quite well at a trot, however the speed between trot and gallop is very bouncy. Here she is full pelt:


That's a cool picture. What did you use to make that?

Maybe I asked you this before about Sali but did she injure her left rear leg? I looked at a video of her a few days ago and thought she may have. Looked like maybe an old ligament injury.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Matt, great pics and great video!

I would guess that your Mal keeping up with the Sighthound is simple because they are playing together and the sight hound isn't trying to run away. 

Not to take away from the Mal because they can have excellent speed dog but just not in the same class as a Sighthound.

I'm guessing the Sighthound hasn't hit the next gear yet. :wink: 

I've watched a number of lure coursing events over the yrs and nothing compars to the sight hounds. 

Well.....I did see an Afghan hound miss a turn and it just ran off into the sunset. 
They aren't the brightest dogs on the planet. 


Nicole, hearing about a single tracking bully breed tells me there is hope yet!

Told ya I really like that dog! :wink:


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Yeah, they are both just buggering about there really, but Digga more so than Sali. My oldest kid has a lurcher pup that is going to leave Digga in the dust when she reaches her peak.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Matt Vandart said:


> Yeah, they are both just buggering about there really, but Digga more so than Sali. My oldest kid has a lurcher pup that is going to leave Digga in the dust when she reaches her peak.


So Matt, if you don't mind me coming back to some questions I asked you that didn't get answered. Did she injure her left rear leg or not? And what did you use to take or make that picture of her?


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Sorry Nicole, can you jog my memory as to where the rear left leg question was, the answer is yes by the way.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Matt Vandart said:


> Sorry Nicole, can you jog my memory as to where the rear left leg question was, the answer is yes by the way.





Nicole Stark said:


> That's a cool picture. What did you use to make that?
> 
> Maybe I asked you this before about Sali but did she injure her left rear leg? I looked at a video of her a few days ago and thought she may have. Looked like maybe an old ligament injury.


Here you go - it's also where I asked you about what you used to make that picture of her running. Thanks for the response. She looks like she's recovered well and is good and strong otherwise.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

oh lol, I thought you had asked me before ages ago. Yes she has, but now and again she will carry it if she takes another awkward ball catch etc.

My friend did it in photoshop for me


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