# My obedience training method



## David Berraco (Dec 19, 2007)

When people ask me what method I use to obedience train I don't feel comfortable with the existing terminology to answer. To me there's a bad taste associated with the terms negative reinforcement, compulsion, escape, avoidance training etc. Sometimes I answer that I use a six foot leash and slip chain collar. This usually shuts them up as the question is more often than not confrontational.

I started obedience training my first dog with zero practical and theoretical knowledge. The only thing I did know is that you put a collar and a leash on a dog. My friend had a choker on his GSD so I just assumed that was the only way to go. My first dog was a smart and willing GSD and I don't really remember what I did but he was very well trained. That dog started me in training dogs professionally as people would stop me on the street and ask how I did it (I took this dog everywhere I went). I do remember being rough with the heel and sit commands, just leash jerks that did the job quickly. It's not a big mental leap when the dog is pulling to yank it back to make it stop.

My first book was the Koehler guard dog training book. From what I achieved on my own Koehler's concepts made perfect sense so from then on I focused on following his instructions to the letter. It worked overall but eventually I had to make modifications so I can't say that I use the Koehler method.

I find that with the Koehler method the dog has to make some unnecessarily big mental leaps to understand some of the exercises. I kind of worship Koehler, his words got me through some dark times with dogs, so it was hard for me to admit that changes needed to be made. I reasoned that Koehler could not in one book tackle all the possible nuances and concentrated on the general application of the training system. One obvious example of a flaw is that for some dogs the slip chain collar is simply not convincing enough. I can see how Koehler would have a hard time recommending a prong to an inexperienced handler. I am at my best though with a chain choker. I'm very hands on with the training and I feel the choker gives me much more predictable control than the prong. I do realize the disadvantages of the choker. One thing I don't like is the pinch effect in one specific spot. I've been playing with a design of a limited choke collar that has the security of the regular choker but provides a more even stimulus around the neck of the dog.

Anyways, the fundamental principal is for the dog to realize that I need it to do something and that the quicker he figures out what I want the more pleasant everything will be. Some adult dogs have no awareness of the handler in terms of doing something that the handler requires that goes against what the dog wants to do. Pleasant means praise and the satisfaction of working together. My art is the application of physical discomfort during the learning phase using the collar and/or any part of my body that I can bring in contact with the dog to cause the desired effect without giving the dog another option but to comply. At the same time laying the foundation for each stimulus to become a correction for the correction and proofing phases. During the correction and proofing phases this greatly helps the dog understand what it needs to do to avoid the correction or the reason for the correction. It helps to avoid the situation where the dog elects an incorrect behavior in response to a correction (this would be a serious set back).

Initially the dog learns what not to do, same as how with a stay he learns not to move. During the learning phase I'll do my best to wrangle the behavior but at the least moving brings on firmly handling him back into position and later a collar correction. Same as how a heel is a moving stay where he encounters negative consequences for leaving the heel position. Once the exercise is established and the dog receives pleasant consequence for his correct actions his focus shifts from what "not to do" to, to what "to do". Not leaving the heel position transforms into seeking to stay close to the handler. This transformation I believe to be founded in the dog knowing that the correction is coming from the handler. It turns out looking good if the dog has some degree of willingness. Dogs that don't have willingness will never look happy but they'll still do the exercise. I don't have a lot of sympathy for dogs with no willingness. My approach is soft enough that I consider it fair, if they can't deal with it that's their problem. Remember I'm talking about real world obedience. Can you let your dog off leash in a small park where a cat can appear across the street?

I only use food to correct problems. Like when a dog is scared of people I'll have them give the dog treats.

I'm not a stranger to motivational training or wrangling a behavior from a dog. I train guard dogs and although you can force some dogs to show aggression those are not the good ones. I consider guard dog training motivational training.

Just thought I'd throw this out there and see what people think. If this is like an old chewing gum for some of you experienced folks my apologies in advance.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

" My art is the application of physical discomfort during the learning phase "

The learning phase for me has no corrections, no physical discomfort. I don't correct the dog for not knowing the wanted behavior.

Perhaps the wording was misinterpreted?


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

"I only use food to correct problems."

I use food a lot in the teaching phase.

You'll find a zillion-post thread (or threads) here about opinions on using food to train, as well as how and when handlers who use it phase it out.


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## David Berraco (Dec 19, 2007)

Connie Sutherland said:


> " My art is the application of physical discomfort during the learning phase "
> 
> The learning phase for me has no corrections, no physical discomfort. I don't correct the dog for not knowing the wanted behavior.
> 
> Perhaps the wording was misinterpreted?


No, I was pretty careful with the choice of words.

How long do you wait before you put a flat collar on a puppy? I put it on as soon as I get it home at 7-8 weeks. How long do you wait before you put a finger in the collar to restrict the pups movement? I'll start doing it 2-3 days after the puppy is with me. If he fights and tries to pull out of the collar what do you do? I reach over with my other hand and secure his backside. How long do you wait before you put pressure on his back side to make him sit? All this equals physical discomfort in the sense the pup would rather you not do it. If the dog understands that there may be times when he's required to do something he'd rather not do it will be easier for him to accept this in later training.

Also I didn't imply that it's a correction. If you're walking and the dog chooses to jump up on you and you just keep on walking, he gets knocked to the floor. This is physical discomfort but is it a correction or an inevitable negative consequence? A dog will run fast and hit a tree, it will hurt and he will try not to do it again. Was there a learning phase? Is this a correction?


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Ah.

My assumption of what "learning phase" meant in the post was far too narrow.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I bought the Koehler books 40 plus years ago. They seemed relevant at that time in my life of heavy handed training. 
The are still on my book shelves. I collect antiques! :grin: :wink:


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Bob Scott said:


> I bought the Koehler books 40 plus years ago. They seemed relevant at that time in my life of heavy handed training.
> The are still on my book shelves. I collect antiques! :grin: :wink:


I was at a garage sale this past Fall and found some of Koehlers books, I bought them just to put on the shelf to show the difference between that type of training and what has surfaced now.......8)


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

I'm pretty much in line with Connie, Bob & Carol. I use all motivational techniques to train, including lots of food/tug/ball rewards. I am not completely adverse to correction/compulsion/discomfort(?) but only when the dog fully understands what I am asking of him - that's only fair!

Koehler Method - Well, when you know better, you do better. Back then we didn't know there was a better way.


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## David Berraco (Dec 19, 2007)

So you keep the bad stuff and the good stuff. I do that too. I have some videos around that I completely disagree with. When I watch them it helps me more clearly define the concepts that I think are the opposing correct ones. And this ain't no $2 garage sale books. We're talking $65 a pop quality brain washing stuff that will convince anyone.

I didn't know until a month ago that Koehler wrote a couple of children's dog books. I paid a couple of dollars for each on some internet used books outlet.

But like I said I don't follow the Koehler method to the letter, I just trust the man's instincts


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## David Berraco (Dec 19, 2007)

David Berraco said:


> A dog will run fast and hit a tree, it will hurt and he will try not to do it again. Was there a learning phase? Is this a correction?


It occurred to me that there was a learning phase. The dog learns as it grows that a tree is just a tree. By the time he has the painful experience with the tree he's got enough previous experience with the tree to allow him to make the right conclusion. The tree is only painful when I'm running and not looking.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Koehler's methods weere basically to beat the dog into doing what it's told. Do they workk? You bet! I used them for years. Why? As Susan said "Because that's what we did back then."
Controlling a dog is about leadership, not over powering it. 
Yes, I can stop my WORKING GSD on a dime when a running cat is six inches in front of him. I've done it and he's NEVER had a training correction. 
When I started hunting with terriers I used heavy handed methods to keep them from running rabbits. It worked then and would still work now. The big difference now is that when I call my Jack Russell off of a rabbit or squirrel he comes back with a happy attitude, not tucking his tail. 
If I ever again feel the need to over power a dog, I wont hesitate. I just haven't felt the need in a few years now.


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## David Berraco (Dec 19, 2007)

Bob, you may have read my other thread on the excitability problem I'm having with my rott. This is after the lesser problem of the dog herding and *overpowering* my 2 year old has been corrected. This is a high drive dog. If I were to train this guy in SCH I believe he would take a few decoys off their feet when he's finished. He punched my closed hand with his muzzle yesterday from 3 feet away to get at a ball I pretended to toss. It hurt and my fingers are bruised today.

What would have been the modern approach to stop this dog from engaging my child?

BTW I've never read of Koehler recommending to beat a dog as part of obedience training. He does in the case of a dog that bites the handler and in a milder fashion to correct behavior problems, but never in obedience.


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

David Berraco said:


> Bob, you may have read my other thread on the excitability problem I'm having with my rott. This is after the lesser problem of the dog herding and *overpowering* my 2 year old has been corrected.


How can overpowering a child be a lesser issue than excitement?


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## David Berraco (Dec 19, 2007)

Because it was easily corrected whereas I'm at a loss about how to fix the excitability.


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

David Berraco said:


> Because it was easily corrected whereas I'm at a loss about how to fix the excitability.



Ah, sorry, misunderstood....


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

David Berraco said:


> Bob, you may have read my other thread on the excitability problem I'm having with my rott. This is after the lesser problem of the dog herding and *overpowering* my 2 year old has been corrected. This is a high drive dog. If I were to train this guy in SCH I believe he would take a few decoys off their feet when he's finished. He punched my closed hand with his muzzle yesterday from 3 feet away to get at a ball I pretended to toss. It hurt and my fingers are bruised today.
> 
> What would have been the modern approach to stop this dog from engaging my child?


David, did you raise this dog from a pup? That's where the training should begin. Now you have a dog that can really hurt your 2 yr old, accidentally or not. 
At his size, and having a child involved, I wont try and convince you about motivational methods. They should have been started when young.
Is this a cop out on my part? Maybe so but the child makes the situation to serious to be giving training directions over the net. That puts it beyond just discussing training methods. That was what your original post was about.


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## David Berraco (Dec 19, 2007)

No problem, I've had this dog for 2 months now. He is 2 years and 2 months old. I wouldn't say the thing with the child was a serious problem, it was easily corrected. The serious problem is the excitability. I trust the dog around my kid although I will always supervise. I had other dogs that I wouldn't trust. If you'd see him you'd know, he's a smarter dog than most that I had and just needed to be seriously told a couple of times. What would worry me is a dog the gets defensive from the child's actions. I actually had to correct my child after the dog was fixed because she was getting to rough with him, he didn't do anything.

I was doing some intensive research over the last couple of days about herding behavior as I speculated it may be the source of his excitability. I've read the herding related threads here and on a couple of other forums. In response to some discussion that I saw here I thought I'd mention that people who appear to know what they're talking about say that herding behavior can be extinguished for certain kind of farm animals while the dog can keep working fine with the others. The dogs understand the difference. So this is what I already had done with the dog and my child.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

You just got a dog that is full blown in the middle of his "tuff guy" age in life. 

What do you know about the dog's background? 

I've also looked back on a few of your other posts abot the dog fixating on the child and the toys the child is holding. The dog shows no respect for the child. Scares the FU(# out of me!!!!

Your comment about being able to take a helper off their feet is based on what? The dog punched you with his nose from three feet away and it still hurts. What happens when this dog gets within three feet of a two yr old child and decides to "punch him with it's nose"? 

I suggest you get to a reliable trainer that understands the severity of this situation. If not, then you need to get rid of the dog. 

NO/NADA/NYET/NOTHING, I repeat, NOTHING is as important as the safety of a child.




NO EDIT.... sorry, Bob, I was replying and hit edit.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

IMO:

Nothing of the baby's is there for the dog's taking. The baby's toys, diapers, stroller, crib, playpen, food, and person....... these are all off-limits to the dog.

I know you mentioned being new to babies..... so I expect and hope I'm not offending you.


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## David Berraco (Dec 19, 2007)

Bob, are you yanking my chain? You did see I wrote two times already that the dogs herding behavior towards the child is gone/se acabo/zakonchina, I repeat, gone.

I say this dog would take a few decoys off their feet because of the intensity of his prey drive. He is very committed to a charge and decides to go in an instant. Very fast dog for his size. I don't know however how much of the prey element I will incorporate into his bitework so I may never be able to back up what I'm saying.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

"He is very committed to a charge and decides to go in an instant. Very fast dog for his size."

Yet another reason it sounds like your in over your head with this dog around your child!
I yank chains when humor is involved. The situation with your child isn't one of those situations.


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## Matthew Grubb (Nov 16, 2007)

David Berraco said:


> You did see I wrote two times already that the dogs herding behavior towards the child is gone/se acabo/zakonchina, I repeat, gone..


David... How did you get it to go away? How long has it been gone? How do you know its gone for good?


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## Lynsey Fuegner (Apr 11, 2007)

I hate coming in so late on a thread...I agree with Bob and Connie a lot in their methods of training. I've only been training dogs now for about 5 years, so I am FAR from an expert by any means, and I don't plan to stop learning until I stop breathing. I learned/attended/graduated from the Tom Rose school and for the first few years I was a pretty rough trainer, and because of this I had a very straine relationship between one of my dogs; he was terrified and respected me because he was in fear (and when you consider my 95lb frame to his 80lb frame, its not like I'm really that imposing). A little over two years ago I discovered a club that based it's training in the theories of opperant conditioning and I couldn't be happier. One of the biggest pivotal moments for me was when the relationship between Fen and I really changed, and I am truly the leader without fear being a part of the picture. Now I'm in no means saying that I train purely motivational, but as Connie and Bob stated above...I give (minimal) corrections (which vary depending on the situation), if needed, once the dog understands what is expected of him.

I agree that a child's (or anyone's for that matter) safety is first and formost when dealing with a(n especially large) dog. I just recently sold a GSD for scurity work in a school down in texas. I'd had Beowulf for almost 3 years when my boyfriend returned to the US from two years in Israel. Beowulf changed from the dog who played fetch with the neighborhood kids to RYan's arch nemesis. Beowulf did everything short of bite Ryan; and though I had solved the problem any time I was in the immediate area with both of them, anytime I left the room or area Beo was in it was right back at Ryan. It was a problem I couldn't guarantee would be gone for good, so I was lucky enough to find a situation where it wouldn't be an issue.


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## David Berraco (Dec 19, 2007)

Matthew Grubb said:


> David... How did you get it to go away? How long has it been gone? How do you know its gone for good?


I put a prong and a tab on the dog. When he'd start crowding the child I'd give an out move in and give 2 or 3 hard corrections with the collar. The dog has been tolerant of the correction as opposed to a dog that would try to avoid it as soon as he sees you going for him. Had he been like that I would have had him drag a line. How do I know it's gone for good? Because I know when a dog is resigned to something or has accepted it. In any case the issue was herding/crowding behavior not biting. When I say that it wasn't difficult to fix I mean it. When there is a problem I don't know how to deal with I have no problem admitting it. A general excited state characterized by panting is not something you can use corrections to stop and is another matter altogether.

Gone for 2-3 weeks I'm not sure. A nice by product is a good response to the out command in other applications, I don't even need to raise my voice.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

I think this constant "excited state" you mention may be a sign the dog is really stressed out. He's only been with you for two months, and the type/style of training you have described as well as the constant interacting he is having to do with the kid may be too much all at once. He may be close to a fight/flight response. I would seriously consider taking a bit of a breather with him by allowing him to be kenneled rather than being stimulated by the child. I would also just spend some time bonding with him, long walks, playing etc.. No corrections for a while, just have fun with him.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

susan tuck said:


> I think this constant "excited state" you mention is stress.


I didn't get involved in this conversation for a couple of reasons. I did want to say, how right you are. Very good instincts.

DFrost


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## David Berraco (Dec 19, 2007)

Susan, I also believe the excited state to be anxiety/stress related. Here's what I wrote previously in the other thread


David Berraco said:


> He is showing some strong herding tendencies. Not only what he started doing with the child but his behavior around other dogs. I suspect that his herding instinct kicks in around the child and I suppressed it by correcting him to keep away from the child. Maybe he is in a constant state of limiting himself from engaging the child and this is causing anxiety?


Speaking theoretically it is easy to recommend a course of action, the reality is different though. The dog must make the adjustment to living in the house. Issues that come up like herding/crowding the child cannot wait until the dog has been in the new home for a set theoretical amount of time. These issues must be addressed as soon as the dog shows some acceptance of me as the master. This was achieved by the normal methods, bonding through feeding, walking and obedience training. Until that time the dog spent a lot of time in the outdoor run.

Playing with this dog at this time is not a recommended course of action as far as I'm concerned. He first needs to achieve a balanced and controlled state. His prey/play drive is too strong and once he gets in that mode the balance I worked to achieve disappears.

I see signs of improvement over the last two days since I removed the prong collar and put a choker back on him. I reasoned that having the prong on he may be anticipating a correction. It's a delicate balance because the choker was not convincing enough for him to begin with. It is ironic considering the criticism I'm receiving that today is the first day that I see the dog maintain a balanced state from the time I woke up to the time of this post. That's what is most important to me though.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

So what are you doing for him to relieve this stress you know he is in? What is his outlet?


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## David Berraco (Dec 19, 2007)

Initially there was nothing I could do. If I take him anywhere he'd go into a hectic state as soon as he enters the car. If I'd take him to play with other dogs he'd try to herd them and go into an even more hectic state. I did a bike run with him and he didn't calm down.

I do long walks and alternate heeling and other obedience exercise with free times for sniffing around and eliminating. I take him to public areas with a lot of people traffic and do long down stays with him observing everything that is going on. He is a very alert dog and catches every movement. I have a good size yard and let him open up and run off leash there.

This is what happens when you get a good dog that was raised by someone else. I still think that it is less of a gamble than taking on a puppy. The price to be paid is stress for the handler and the dog until an equilibrium is reached.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

David Berraco said:


> Susan, I also believe the excited state to be anxiety/stress related. Here's what I wrote previously in the other threadSpeaking theoretically it is easy to recommend a course of action, the reality is different though. The dog must make the adjustment to living in the house. Issues that come up like herding/crowding the child cannot wait until the dog has been in the new home for a set theoretical amount of time. These issues must be addressed as soon as the dog shows some acceptance of me as the master. This was achieved by the normal methods, bonding through feeding, walking and obedience training. Until that time the dog spent a lot of time in the outdoor run.
> 
> Playing with this dog at this time is not a recommended course of action as far as I'm concerned. He first needs to achieve a balanced and controlled state. His prey/play drive is too strong and once he gets in that mode the balance I worked to achieve disappears.
> 
> I see signs of improvement over the last two days since I removed the prong collar and put a choker back on him. I reasoned that having the prong on he may be anticipating a correction. It's a delicate balance because the choker was not convincing enough for him to begin with. It is ironic considering the criticism I'm receiving that today is the first day that I see the dog maintain a balanced state from the time I woke up to the time of this post. That's what is most important to me though.


1. All dogs need a period of adjustment. They are dogs not machines. You are not fair to your dog.
2. If "balance" disappears when you play with the dog, either you don't 
know how to play with a dog or there is something seriously wrong with the dog. Dogs need play, it's important, it strengthens the bond, they get rid of stress.
3. Dogs that receive fair corrections are not stressed just because they are wearing the pinch collar. Matter of fact, my dogs have always gotten very happy when I bring it out because they know they are going to do work or go for a walk, it's all the same to them because they like doing both.


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## Guest (Dec 31, 2007)

> ...if they can't deal with it that's their problem. Remember I'm talking about real world obedience. Can you let your dog off leash in a small park where a cat can appear across the street?


I had a good psychology teacher one year.

Our jobs one day were to teach eachother a given task. We had to pick any random behavior and use one of two ways to accomplish it. 

#1. Positive Punishment (No)
#2. Positive Reward (Yes)

That's it. Good/bad, black/white, yes/no. Two stimuli. 

Positive punishment to TEACH something resulted in confusion, freezing up and shutting down in the trainees, and frustration with the trainers. That should sound familiar. This was between one person trying to get another person to go pick up a chalkboard eraser, with no physical contact between them, or even a change of tone in the voice. 

Using #2 to TEACH the same behavior, resulted in faster progress, less frustration, and certainly no freezing up. In humans, between humans.

Being a trainee, I know how much it sucked when illiciting a wanted behavior is mostly unpleasant, and the reward is merely a lack of discomfort.


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## David Berraco (Dec 19, 2007)

susan tuck said:


> 1. All dogs need a period of adjustment. They are dogs not machines. You are not fair to your dog.


A period of adjustment was a normal part of my approach with this dog as with any other dog. That aside life is not fair, the dog is not fair to my child and the dog is not fair being pushy. Be fair to your dog, do not judge my approach to my dog without ever seeing him. That would make you an internet dog expert.


susan tuck said:


> 2. If "balance" disappears when you play with the dog, either you don't know how to play with a dog or there is something seriously wrong with the dog. Dogs need play, it's important, it strengthens the bond, they get rid of stress.


By the sound of this I don't think you've dealt with some strong dogs that one needs to be careful and not play with. Anyone who's worked with strong dogs knows that sometimes play is not the right course of action. I bring this up as an example. My dog is not one of those that are overly aggressive. But play at this point is counter productive.


susan tuck said:


> 3. Dogs that receive fair corrections are not stressed just because they are wearing the pinch collar. Matter of fact, my dogs have always gotten very happy when I bring it out because they know they are going to do work or go for a walk, it's all the same to them because they like doing both.


Maybe your dogs are happy when they get bit by another dog or if they step on a thorn or if you yell at them. That's your deal. I don't expect a dog to enjoy a correction. A correction is negative consequence to stop an undesirable action. A prong collar is a symbol of authority and a reminder to the dog. Nevertheless my dog will come and sit in anticipation for me to put either the choke or the prong on. My line of thinking was that the constant pressure from the prong as he's wearing it could be causing the anxiety. I don't know for sure. I can only attempt various things and use a process of elimination. Removing the prong coincided with positive results. There may be other contributing factors that I'm not aware of. I write of my experience freely because if there is someone out there with a similar problem and this gives them an option that might work then it's a good thing.

Please don't make like you know everything about every possible temperament type or problem, it is ignorant. Everybody gets a dog at one point that will keep them guessing. If you haven't then you didn't deal with enough dogs.


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## David Berraco (Dec 19, 2007)

Steven, the difference in that situation is that you made a conscious choice to try and figure out the task that you teacher had in mind. The vast majority of dogs do not make this choice. They'd rather do something more interesting (to them). I've played the game you're talking about.

A reward is not merely a lack of discomfort, but you can go on believing that if you want.


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## Guest (Dec 31, 2007)

David Berraco said:


> They'd rather do something more interesting (to them).


That's telling.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Sorry, I did not mean to imply my dog enjoys a correction. What I am saying is my dog does not live in a constant state of fear of what I am going to do to him next.


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## David Berraco (Dec 19, 2007)

It's a tricky situation. On one hand you don't want to damage your relationship with the dog. On the other hand the status quo cannot continue. The dog is the one initiating the unacceptable behavior and in real life leaves the handler no option but to correct. In the end my experience has been that with consistent and fair application of negative consequences for undesirable actions the dog will modify the behavior with no adverse affects such as living in a state of anxiety not knowing what will happen next. The negative emotions associated with receiving a correction are unfortunately a necessary temporary condition. Dogs correct each other and get positive and negative consequences from the environment so it's within their genetic makeup to function this way. I personally really dislike correcting a dog but it is inevitable.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

David Berraco said:


> A reward is not merely a lack of discomfort, but you can go on believing that if you want.


IMHO, you misread Steven's remark.

QUOTE: I know how much it sucked when illiciting a wanted behavior is mostly unpleasant, and the reward is merely a lack of discomfort."

IOW, It sucked to have a reward be nothing more than a lack of discomfort.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

To give just an example: My son had a dog that was pushy, she wanted everything her way. My son at the time had two small boys. The dog was very dominate. She tried to be this way with my male. I corrected her for this by just pulling her away from him, she was on a leash. If I had tried to make heaven open up on her at that time the male would have jumped her a$$. I didn't want that to happen. What she did do with the boys was grawl at them when they would come close. My son let the heavens open up on her which caused another problem. When the boys would be within ten feet from her she would start finding a way away from them. She saw them as the reason she got her clock cleaned. She didn't care for them at first and she disliked them more now. No one should ever leave a child close to a dog like that so she had to go, to a girl that lived by herself and NO kids.

In correcting problems be prepaired to have and adverse problem that could be worse. Be careful David.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Good point, & well said Jerry. 
David perhaps we mean different things when we say "play". I have had many "strong" dogs, I have also had "dominant" dogs and I have had "soft" dogs. I play with all of them, it has never hampered training, if anything it has made my training better. When I say "play" I'm talking about ball, roughhousing, a sort of "tag" back & forth, tug of war, that sort of thing.


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## David Berraco (Dec 19, 2007)

Jerry, I'm familiar with the situation you're talking about. The dog comes to see the children as the source of all bad that happens to it in their presence. In my present situation I wouldn't keep a dog like that. Some dogs just can't function in certain situations and no training approach will correct the problem, although Bob Scott may suggest that you should have had the children give the dog treats.

I forgot for a moment the title of this thread and had to scroll up to see. This thread is about my approach to obedience training, not about solving a non existent problem between my dog and my child. I know how it started, with Bob Scott copping out and then turning the situation around on me to save face. What I don't understand is why my dog is still being analyzed on this thread without anyone comprehending what I've repeated too many times, there is no longer any issue with the child. And if it does arise again and some maintenance work needs to be done I know what to do. Please save your suggestions for the thread where I ask how to fix the excitability/anxiety problem which is what really concerns me.


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## David Berraco (Dec 19, 2007)

Susan, you raise a serious question the essence of which is whether in some situations with some dogs play in its various forms can be a bad thing. I have some experience with this, including this dog. However I do need to organize my thoughts to provide an answer that will cover all the types of play you mentioned and how it would work out with different types of dogs. It will make a good discussion but I'd rather not do it on this thread which as far as I'm concerned has turned to the ridiculous. If you like start a new one with this topic and we'll continue the discussion there.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Thanks, but no, I'll just have to somehow muddle through on my own.


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Certainly your methods must work for you, David, otherwise you wouldn't use them, but at what cost? How fair is it for you to expect the dog (or any animal for that matter) to work for you in this way?

The work I train my dogs for is by far one of the most difficult and complicated jobs a human could expect a dog to do (disaster SAR). The dog is expected to work independently of its handler in a highly distracting and stressful environment, oftentimes completely out of sight of the handler. We accomplish this by using positive reinforcement and training in drive only - no punishment/corrections are used in our search training. Its a tried and true method, proven to work in the real world in extremely adverse conditions with extremely high drive dogs. If we can accomplish this, then why subject a dog to a lifestyle of corrections and punishment to get your point across?


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## David Berraco (Dec 19, 2007)

Konnie, please notice that the title of the thread is obedience training method not SAR or narcotics detection, not even protection training. I have a general knowledge of what SAR is and what aspects of the dogs temperament allow it to do this work. I understand it to be something the dog very much desires to do. Obedience is inhibitive in nature and in most cases the dog is required to respond exactly when he's most interested in doing something else. While training in drive you can use the dogs desire to do something or get at something and make it understand that complying with directions he will attain his objective faster. Eventually the dog receives drive satisfaction and learns that taking directions is part of the game.

You can't do this when the dog's drive satisfaction consists of sinking his teeth in a cat or another dog, or simply running across a street while you are standing there yelling "come". In this case what control means to the dog is first "stop what it is most you want to do immediately" and only then the mechanics of the rest of the exercise.

As far as at what cost. A dog is not capable of functioning in society based on his instincts. A street dog will end up in a pound and dead if not straight dead. Even though the dog protects my house and family ultimately I am the one who protects him from deadly threats that he is not even aware of. I'd say the cost is a comfortable long life and all he has to do is accept some control. I'm long past the point of seeing how much I can achieve with training and believe in the minimum amount of control necessary and let the dogs instincts do the rest. I like to have a dog that I feel I can satisfy his working necessities. In my situation those necessities should be assuming responsibility for the home and family and protecting it. I do not need a high drive dog for this. If I feel that I have to inhibit my dog too much for what his temperament calls for I will get another dog.

One might then argue that even that amount of control is not fair, the dog did not ask to be taken out of the wild to be faced with all these artificial limitations in order to enable it to function in society. The only conclusion then is to realize that life is just not fair.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

David Berraco said:


> You can't do this when the dog's drive satisfaction consists of sinking his teeth in a cat or another dog, or simply running across a street while you are standing there yelling "come". .



Do you have the idea that training not based on "the art of administering discomfort in the learning phase" cannot result in impeccable and reliable obedience?

If you do, you are incorrect.


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## David Berraco (Dec 19, 2007)

I know that if corrections are used reliable obedience can be achieved.

Since the introduction of physical discomfort is inevitable in the correction and proofing as well as maintenance phases I believe it is easier on the dog to experience it in a much milder form during the learning phase. This way it has a choice to avoid corrections by complying. Also the level of corrections necessary for a particular dog is more easily determined.

If the dog is taught the sit by being placed in a sit, pressure up on the collar and down on the rear end, it will be much easier for him to understand what he needs to do to avoid the same type of sensation only stronger.

Also while handling other issues surface which need to be dealt with, for example refusal to be handled by the owner.

Please bear in mind I'm not talking about raising your own puppy. I've raised a few puppies but the bulk of my experience is with adult dogs who some might label as problem dogs. It is a problem when an owner can't examine his dogs paws for example, and when he insists the dog growls. The handling that is part of the learning phase in my style of training exposes these problems and brings them to a head so they can be extinguished at the source.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

That's not how I teach sit. It's just as easy to lure the dog into a sit the first time, mark and praise using the word sit, and then go on from there.

But your way is good too, and certainly it's the way I used for decades.

My dogs don't refuse to come under distraction, and the most discomfort they experienced learning the recall was being on a long line so I could reel 'em in in the teaching phase.

I do indeed correct if necessary. But not in the teaching phase. 

What you describe sounds in some posts like escape training, and I much prefer other ob training methods.


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## David Berraco (Dec 19, 2007)

Connie, to teach the recall I reel them in too. There is discomfort involved up to the point when the dog is in front of you and that's where the discomfort stops. That is escape training. With some dogs a flat collar will do and others that will attempt to pull out of the collar when being reeled in need a more secure collar like a choker, this equals more discomfort. The thing that masks the fact that it is physical discomfort is the dogs degree of inherent willingness.

To me that's the simple part. My eloquent choice of words that I'm now regretting somewhat "the art of application of physical discomfort" would come into play when polishing the tricky part of the sit in front position. This is where the dog purposely or out of confusion will not assume a proper sit in front position. Either coming in too close or staying too far or angling to either side.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

David Berraco said:


> .... to teach the recall I reel them in too. There is discomfort involved up to the point when the dog is in front of you and that's where the discomfort stops. That is escape training.


Not to me.

I define escape training as inflicting discomfort (or pain) until the dog gives the wanted behavior.

Reeling the dog in for another recall command doesn't qualify. I suppose you could really stretch it and call it a correction. But escape training? No.

This is getting silly. How does the dog escape the reeling in? That command is over when I start reeling him in. Now we do it again.



BTW, the long line is needed only if I am dealing with a badly-trained adult...... with a totally green dog (no bad recall training) and a safe enclosure, no long line.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

David Berraco said:


> "the art of application of physical discomfort" would come into play when polishing the tricky part of the sit in front position. This is where the dog purposely or out of confusion will not assume a proper sit in front position. Either coming in too close or staying too far or angling to either side.



"Purposely" assuming the wrong front sit? Huh?


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## David Berraco (Dec 19, 2007)

Connie Sutherland said:


> How does the dog escape the reeling in? That command is over when I start reeling him in. Now we do it again.


I think you meant it's over when you stop reeling him in. Part of the progression of the exercise is when the dog starts heading your way faster than you're reeling in. He has learned to escape pressure. If you don't think he's escaping the pressure put on a collar and have someone reel you in. I did it myself to get a better understanding of the psychology involved.


Connie Sutherland said:


> "Purposely" assuming the wrong front sit? Huh?


You've never had a dog purposely jump up at you or foul the leash with his feet to try to influence you and to avoid staying in the heel position? Same kind of resistance only milder. You let it go and eventually the sit in front will degenerate into nothing.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

David Berraco said:


> I think you meant it's over when you stop reeling him in. Part of the progression of the exercise is when the dog starts heading your way faster than you're reeling in. He has learned to escape pressure. If you don't think he's escaping the pressure put on a collar and have someone reel you in. I did it myself to get a better understanding of the psychology involved.


No, I didn't. I meant that once I start reeling him in, that command is over. The dog did not comply.... no matter what his reaction is to reeling him in.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

David Berraco said:


> You've never had a dog purposely jump up at to you to avoid staying in the heel position? Same kind of resistance only milder. You let it go and eventually the sit in front will degenerate into nothing.


I don't let it go.

" polishing the tricky part of the sit in front position" is still, for me, the teaching phase.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Dogs don't "purposley" assume the wrong positions. If it's wrong, it has been taught wrong. If it IS purposely avoiding you, it's avoiding correction, not the position.
I've trained my share of hard headed, stubborn, even aggressive dogs. Physical pressure will only create compliance out of fear and aversion with most of these types of dogs. 
Creating a reliable recall with an adult dog is all about leadership and respect. If a dog comes only because it has to based on being overpowered by you, that's nothing to do with leadership.

If this is the type of training your using with a dominant Rotty around your child, the best I can do is say a few prayers for the child.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Could I add, David, having just noticed that you posted "we are not talking about training your own puppy," I'm not either.

I train adults, and often problem adults.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

David, I am not going to get involved in the training method discussion because the others are far more knowledgeable than I on that but............

I gather the 2 year old is your first child? Most of the folks giving advice concerning the dog and the child (myself included) have raised children and grandchildren around dogs and have some real insights on the things that can go wrong around kids.


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## David Berraco (Dec 19, 2007)

Connie Sutherland said:


> My dogs don't refuse to come under distraction, and the most discomfort they experienced learning the recall was being on a long line so I could reel 'em in in the teaching phase.


So you reel the dog in during the learning phase, to teach it to come to you.


Connie Sutherland said:


> I define escape training as inflicting discomfort (or pain) until the dog gives the wanted behavior.
> 
> Reeling the dog in for another recall command doesn't qualify. I suppose you could really stretch it and call it a correction. But escape training? No.
> 
> This is getting silly. How does the dog escape the reeling in? That command is over when I start reeling him in. Now we do it again.


And you don't consider "reeling in" as escape training because there is not discomfort for the dog. He is coming in your direction because he is drawn to the hypnotic motions of your reeling hands?


Connie Sutherland said:


> I meant that once I start reeling him in, that command is over. The dog did not comply.... no matter what his reaction is to reeling him in.


But if the command is over and the dog did not comply then you're using it as a correction. How can a correction not involve physical discomfort which the dog would seek to avoid (escape training)? Yet this is the same technique you are using to teach the dog in the learning phase as seen in the first quote.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

No. I do not reel him in to teach him to come to me. 

I reel him in to teach him that there is no option.

Teaching him to come to me is done by making the dog want to come to me. 

And AGAIN, I don't need to do this unless I am re-training a badly-trained dog (one who has been recalled for corrections, or maybe learned to play keep-away, etc.).

And I have a strong feeling after reading this whole thread that reeling in a dog who is learning the recall isn't in any way what you meant by "discomfort in the learning phase."

Your training methids are your own decision, of course. But if this was not a forum of very experienced working dog folks, I can tell you that your ideas about training the dog with regard to his interaction with your baby would have drawn a huge mod warning to the people reading the thread.

The people who have posted about your methods around your baby are mainly VERY experienced trainers/handlers. I think you would be well-advised to actually read and think about their posts instead of composing long comebacks. You are getting some brusque replies because, while the forum is exceptionally tolerant of most of the spectrum of dog-training philosophies (short of animal abuse), a line is drawn when a poster is describing methods that are dangerous to children.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

David Berraco said:


> He is coming in your direction because he is drawn to the hypnotic motions of your reeling hands?But if the command is over and the dog did not comply then you're using it as a correction. How can a correction not involve physical discomfort which the dog would seek to avoid (escape training)? Yet this is the same technique you are using to teach the dog in the learning phase as seen in the first quote.


We have different definitions of escape training. Correcting after the behavior is NOT escape training.


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## David Berraco (Dec 19, 2007)

So what does one need to do to get banned from this joke forum?

Connie, you’re a freakin’ schitzo, I understand this usually happens after menopause.

Bob Scott, you’re a whiny girlie man.

David Frost, Tim Martens, you remind me of that scene in Men in black where J gets selected out of a group state produced automatons.

Mike Schoonbrood, did you start this forum? I guess you did it to learn something, keep going baby!

What all of you have in common that you know shit about dogs, yet you don’t let anyone’s voice but your own be heard.

To the silent majority.. you should speak up. These clowns are nobodies without the stage you provide for them.

BTW Berraco is the Cuban name for triggerfish, one that I like to hunt.

http://aycu30.webshots.com/image/39189/2001532974285302167_rs.jpg

Ciao sapingos.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Don't let the door hit ya where the good lord split ya!


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Gosh, he thought his little swan song was so good it should be repeated on multiple threads!


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## Patrick Cheatham (Apr 10, 2006)

Well I guess the old saying " Get in where YOU FIT IN would have been just right for this one".


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Patrick! You got back on. Helllllllooooooo

You have to admit the whole thing added some drama to the forum. I learned a lot I never wanted to know about Koehler. 

Scares me that dogs like he trains are out there. Guess I should be quiet, some of those supernatural dogs may be reading this forum and planning a revenge strategy.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Nancy Jocoy said:


> Scares me that dogs like he trains are out there. Guess I should be quiet, some of those supernatural dogs may be reading this forum and planning a revenge strategy.


OMG!

I never thought of that!

Lock your doors!


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Nancy Jocoy said:


> Patrick! You got back on. Helllllllooooooo
> 
> You have to admit the whole thing added some drama to the forum. I learned a lot I never wanted to know about Koehler.
> 
> Scares me that dogs like he trains are out there. Guess I should be quiet, some of those supernatural dogs may be reading this forum and planning a revenge strategy.


Koehler got started training dogs in the military during WWII, from there he actually did a lot of the dog training for a lot of the earlier Disney movies. Swiss Family Robinson, Old yellar, etc.


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## Ian Forbes (Oct 13, 2006)

To be fair to Koehler, he had no control of who was going to read his books....:-\"


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## Julie Ward (Oct 1, 2007)

Well, that was fun. What's next?


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