# Sleeves



## Jacob Tallmon (Aug 13, 2006)

Anyone have any opinions regarding sleeves? I'm looking at a Harddogs one (they seem to have a smaller bite bar than the Ray Allen sleeves). I can't find anyone who sells Harddogs though. Do you have to get them factory-direct? Thanks for your input.


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## Amber Scott Dyer (Oct 30, 2006)

Signature K9 sells a lot of HD sleeves. 

www.signaturek9.com


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Bite sleeves for what application? I like a sleeve which is light weight and fast. I am also a big user of the mid-weight sleeve for advanced dogs. To keep from being beat to pieces, I use a neo-sleeve under all sleeves. We also use light sleeves for another reason, to feel the dog's bite pressure under pressure. You can't feel minor pain and bite pressure on hard sleeves. The old style 1960's barrel sleeve is a waste of time.


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## Phil Dodson (Apr 4, 2006)

Explain why they are a waste?


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

It is a large circular tube. How many human arms look like that? None that I have seen. If you have a dog which is SUPER hard, maybe. I feel you can get better training and a most real feel from other sleeves and bite suits w/a neo-sleeve under it. If a dog can bite a sleeve, it can bite a suit. It all depends upon how you introduce the items.

For PPD bite work, we go the the thinnest, lightest sleeve without busting our arm to pieces. Even the old 1960's style of training is out dated and largely a waste of time. Keeping all training with the right equipment positive is the best way to go. And I have to say it again, with young dogs or puppies I do lots of slip and wins, I even go to the ground, cry like the dog is killing me. I have had folks ask me, "Did that dog really hurt you out there?" No, it's all a game and the game of making young dogs feel like they RULE!


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## Phil Dodson (Apr 4, 2006)

I have placed dozens of PSDs on the street over the past few decades to include my own partners. I have used the barrel sleeve longer than that and have noticed no difference in their actions when confronting a perp than when being trained on other type sleeves or suits. 

I start off utilizing a medium type sleeve and once satisfied with the bite and prior to going to concealed work, I begin introducing the hard or barrel sleeve. Once the K-9 is engaging the quarry in different scenarios utilizing the concealed sleeve I then introduce the suit where he is taught he can engage anywhere,anyhow he needs to take the perp into custody. 

I feel the barrel sleeve produces a harder bite (just my opinion). Not all K-9s like it, so I make adjustments if need be just like in any type of training. I want the initial bite to inflict as much punishment to the bad guy as possible. Once again (just my opinion).

Phil Dodson


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## Simon Mellick (Oct 31, 2006)

Howard Gaines III said:


> It is a large circular tube. How many human arms look like that?


I've got zero experience working with a barrel sleeve, so I won't comment on their usefulness. But the argument that they don't look like or are not shaped like a human arm, therefore they're no good, is flawed. How many people walk around with bulky jute wrapped around their arm? Regardless of what style of sleeve, the dog knows it's a sleeve. Even the hidden sleeves are really only hidden until the dog bites it.


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## Frank Phillips (Jan 8, 2008)

I train for Schutzhund and when dogs tend to get lazy about opening their mouth wide, I use a barrel arm. I have one dog in my club that for a week - 10 days before a trial all he works on is the barrel arm and then when he hits the trial and a bite bar his mouth is wide open and the grip is full.....high points..... But sometimes in training he will get lazy opening his mouth and be 1/2 inch shallow before he regrips.....


Frank


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

Frank Phillips said:


> I train for Schutzhund and when dogs tend to get lazy about opening their mouth wide, I use a barrel arm. I have one dog in my club that for a week - 10 days before a trial all he works on is the barrel arm and then when he hits the trial and a bite bar his mouth is wide open and the grip is full.....high points..... But sometimes in training he will get lazy opening his mouth and be 1/2 inch shallow before he regrips.....
> 
> 
> Frank


well, there ya go: the trial-dog world isn't THAT much different than the show-horse world!! love it


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

My point one more time... It has been my experience with dogs from the sport, service, and PP venues; many will at some point be equipment focused if the trainer gives them that chance. *The barrel sleeve is great for large mouth, hard biting dogs.* Most dogs do not like them, the same can be said for very stiff full body bite suits. The softer the material and the tighter the weave, the more engagement time your dog will have with it. 

Success builds upon success. We use tugs, puppy sleeves, and hard trial sleeves for all of our dogs. However, we also use the softest sleeve with a neo-sleeve under it for OUR protection. When the dog understands proper targeting and bite compression, we transfer to the suit. When the dog is biting on a MOST real feel item, you can safely bet that they will have NO issue with bulky street, goose down filled clothes. Most modern bite suits are now designed to look like street wear, French Ring for one.

For those who have *very little* experience or none with this topic, opinions are always welcomed. I would however view some of them as folks who watch two K9 clips from the TV show "Cops." They see some trooper do a basic K9 deployment on the bad guy and NOW become experts on the subject. Erh...ah...not!


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

First off, just my being a Mod doesn't mean I've had expierience with lots of different sleeves. I haven't, even though I've seen three or four K9 clips from "Cops".
What I'm seeing in this post is that different folks like different sleeves. That doesn't make one better then the other except for the people using them.


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

It ain't the size of the sleeve, it's how ya use it


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Bob isn't that the point of a forum? No one person has seen everything or done everything. A healthy RESPECT for everyone's opinion is always refreshing, I think!


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Howard Gaines III said:


> .... A healthy RESPECT for everyone's opinion is always refreshing, I think!


Yes.... a good thing for all of us.


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

Howard Gaines III said:


> For those who have *very little* experience or none with this topic, opinions are always welcomed. I would however view some of them as folks who watch two K9 clips from the TV show "Cops." They see some trooper do a basic K9 deployment on the bad guy and NOW become experts on the subject. Erh...ah...not!


well, it's nice to know that my opinion is welcome....:-\" 

anyway howard, it's always good to hear of others' experiences and training techniques--who knows when it'll come in handy?


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Howard Gaines III said:


> Bob isn't that the point of a forum? No one person has seen everything or done everything. A healthy RESPECT for every one's opinion is always refreshing, I think!


Yes, a healthy respect is the idea but "such and such equipment is a waste of time" or "I'll say this one more time" or talking in a condescending manner to members that don't have as much experience isn't what Most would call a healthy respect.


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