# What do you make of this ??



## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Police officers mauled by dog in London yesterday..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7M69oZ0miVk


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

Start carrying guns and shoot it.


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## mike finn (Jan 5, 2011)

Tiago Fontes said:


> Start carrying guns and shoot it.


Absolutley! That was horrible.I like how the other guys are just yelling advice to the guy. I can not believe they are not at least pepper spraying, or tazinng the dog, or beating it off with a PR24 or an ASP . It is a shame they do not give cops what they need to protect them selves over there. Sorry England, but that is just flat out stupid.


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

And then, the whole DRAMA about dangerous breeds will commence again, supported by British media, followed by retarded laws suggested by even more retarded politicians.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Probably an Irish dog. I am actually embarassed for the guy.


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

I think that guy should do desk work instead of working the street. Gun or no gun he should have been able to get out of that situation alot quicker. Assuming the video is real and not staged.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Ben Thompson said:


> I think that guy should do desk work instead of working the street. Gun or no gun he should have been able to get out of that situation alot quicker. Assuming the video is real and not staged.


The video staged ?? There are a few pics going around showing all the blood (officers blood) on the road and pavement. There were FIVE officers there, I have no idea why they did not help each other,,,they would all at least be equipped with batons .


Some of the story...

Rahman, who said that the attack took place at about 10.15am, said officers used a battering ram and batons to beat the dog down. "The dog actually managed to get hold of the police officer and the officer was screaming in agony … The dog was on his hand, biting down."
Rahman, who filmed the attack on his phone, added: "The dog grabbed him so hard that the officer had no luck really." He said he could see officers jumping on cars and over gates to get away. "They didn't know what to do," he said.
"The officers then came with guns and that's when they shot the dog. There were seven or eight of them; they were trying to hold the dog down. Even then they couldn't hold it down." He said the dog died after "two or three shots".
Four of the officers were said to be in a serious but stable condition and are being assessed for whether they have suffered lasting tendon and muscle damage. The remaining officer suffered minor injuries.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/mar/22/dog-mauls-five-police-officers?newsfeed=true


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Unbelievable that nobody, police or civilians, had any idea how to handle the situation.


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## Jackie Lockard (Oct 20, 2009)

Bob Scott said:


> Unbelievable that nobody, police or civilians, had any idea how to handle the situation.


That's what I was thinking. Why isn't dealing with stray/aggressive dogs part of training? It seems like it would common sense that this would be part of training leo. It's a problem often enough.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Jackie Lockard said:


> That's what I was thinking. Why isn't dealing with stray/aggressive dogs part of training? It seems like it would common sense that this would be part of training leo. It's a problem often enough.



In particular since they do have some pretty strong dangerous breed laws over there. 
I guess most of us on the WDF, being around dogs most of our lives it just seems to basic.
At the very least, where were the bobbie's billy clubs, asps, whatever? Are they also outlawed now? ](*,)


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Out of curiosity, how would people here handle that dog with no leash?


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Man that is national embarrassment for every male in england not just cops but even more embarrassing for them..


Poor dog had to die doing what it was prolly taught.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Out of curiosity, how would people here handle that dog with no leash?



When the dog is attacking a human, grab both back legs and gut kick the crap out of it! I've done it with large dogs in breaking up dog fights (without the gut kicking). In the dog on dog instance ideally you need two people with the same mind set. Dog on human and it's no holds barred!
If you have a heavy club, tire iron, etc then use it across the dogs back. Try and break it! Back or tire iron, which ever breaks first. Having a CC permit would also be helpful.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> In particular since they do have some pretty strong dangerous breed laws over there.
> I guess most of us on the WDF, being around dogs most of our lives it just seems to basic.
> At the very least, where were the bobbie's billy clubs, asps, whatever? Are they also outlawed now? ](*,)


They have batons. There were five of them.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

maggie fraser said:


> They have batons. There were five of them.



Then it's obvious they don't have any balls. :evil:


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> When the dog is attacking a human, grab both back legs and gut kick the crap out of it! I've done it with large dogs in breaking up dog fights (without the gut kicking). In the dog on dog instance ideally you need two people with the same mind set. Dog on human and it's no holds barred!
> If you have a heavy club, tire iron, etc then use it across the dogs back. Try and break it! Back or tire iron, which ever breaks first. Having a CC permit would also be helpful.



Good post, Bob. I betcha more than a few of us have wheelbarrowed apart dogs in a dog-dog fight (the one time I was involved in that, I was lucky enough to have THREE of us jump in; two of us each had a leg of the bigger dog and the third dragged the other one off).

I've never been around where there was a prolonged attack on a human. It's a good thing, I think, for us to see this complete lack of effectiveness and formulate plans for just in case.


ETA
I was lucky that I had read Ed Frawley's dogfight-separation article, because even though I am aware now that most dog people know to wheelbarrow the dogs apart by their hind legs _and secure them_, at that time I had read only the LB article and was really glad I had.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I would add, In the club/tire iron on the back it should be the lower back. A large dog may have a lot of heavy muscle on the upper back. 
Not the head because the dog is gripping and, in the excitement, you may do a lot more damage to the person being bitten.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> When the dog is attacking a human, grab both back legs and gut kick the crap out of it! I've done it with large dogs in breaking up dog fights (without the gut kicking). In the dog on dog instance ideally you need two people with the same mind set. Dog on human and it's no holds barred!
> If you have a heavy club, tire iron, etc then use it across the dogs back. Try and break it! Back or tire iron, which ever breaks first. Having a CC permit would also be helpful.


In the case in the video, no one has the balls to help, the dog is head on so grabbing the back legs is out. I don't think standing there helplessly screaming and looking for someone to jump in helped him much. Realistically, few people would be comfortable in that situation.....but you can't stand there screaming and winding the dog up more.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> In the case in the video, no one has the balls to help, the dog is head on so grabbing the back legs is out. I don't think standing there helplessly screaming and looking for someone to jump in helped him much. Realistically, few people would be comfortable in that situation.....but you can't stand there screaming and winding the dog up more.


Yes, I understand what you're saying. 

In the text, leg wounds to the guy's bone are described. I'd be screaming too. 

I would like to think I'd be able to pull out and use my billy club, baton, whatever, but then I would also like to think that a few of those people standing around would do what Bob described.

I might easily have been just as useless in the dogfight I described above, though, thinking about it, if I hadn't already read exactly what to do and how to do it, and also had a couple of other people there who immediately followed shouted directions (and were, in fact, much calmer than I was).

In fact, honestly, I probably would have been. Someone has to have a plan, and no one in this clip did.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Or does anyone have a different idea of what to do in a similar situation?

Having a plan seems like a good plan.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

I've been thinking about this. I think it is sad that there were five officers there together, and they all acted like individuals. Ok, so there has been no obvious training or a plan for a scenario like this for the officers in question so for me, it comes down to character.

I relayed an unrelated scenario on another thread fairly recently, where I found myself in a situation where action was required, in this situation it was to help my dog who was being stung by what seemed, hundreds of wasps. I had no plan, no tools.

The dog was no match for five men, if they had a wee bit of character....you give it what you've got and if that means your feet, your hands, your BATONS, ! Fkn disgusted I am!


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

maggie fraser said:


> I've been thinking about this. I think it is sad that there were five officers there together, and they all acted like individuals. Ok, so there has been no obvious training or a plan for a scenario like this for the officers in question so for me, it comes down to character.
> 
> I relayed an unrelated scenario on another thread fairly recently, where I found myself in a situation where action was required, in this situation it was to help my dog who was being stung by what seemed, hundreds of wasps. I had no plan, no tools.
> 
> The dog was no match for five men, if they had a wee bit of character....you give it what you've got and if that means your feet, your hands, your BATONS, ! Fkn disgusted I am!


But what exactly? I thought what Bob posted was pretty spot on. I mean, you probably don't want to pull backwards on a dog whose teeth are engaged in human flesh, right? 

I agreed with Bob's "no holds barred" in that situation, too.

So what do other folks think is the best plan to rehearse in the mind for a scenario like that one, where serious injury is being inflicted and no one has a firearm?


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Everyones covered it but i just cant believe how gutless his comrades were in helping him. absolutely disgusting they all ran away why he got mauled.These are officers I WOULD NOT WANT to attend if it was a dog on a child.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Didn't those guys have bullet proof vests on?? Could get creative and fashion a bitesuit of sorts to shove in mouth of dog then get aforearm on its throat while someone ran into yhe open house and got a knife, brick something. 

I pinned a gsd down when it bit a blanket I wrapped on my arm to takethe bite with and rescued a toy breed pet from death.

I think that dog had sleeve training which enabled me to defeat it fairly easily, its training caused it to get beat.


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## Adam Rawlings (Feb 27, 2009)

I would feel really good knowing these cops are keeping the streets safe.#-o


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Looking at the video again I see a pole to sling the dog against, a pointy picket fence to slam the dog onto. Of course it's always easier to look back and say what we'd do. The dog doesn't look like a lightweight either but I'm guessing adrenalin could help that a bit. 
A clear head in the moment is something we'd all hope for.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

They're trained to settle most gang problems over a cup of tea and a chat.

Ozzies know the strength of their fibre since Gallipoli and even earlier, figure thats why we look to the states as viable allies when it comes time to kill - no joke.


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## Melissa Thom (Jun 21, 2011)

Poor guy. Immortalized on youtube, forever. :-s It's pretty easy to Monday morning quarterback on the poor guy but kicking the shit out of that critter would have been where I would suggest starting if I had to take that first bite unarmed. 

I think it's pretty hard sometimes to realize how fast things can go sideways, especially with dogs you don't know, owners that are idiots, and being a little distracted. I like this vid as an example. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZGUyMFPJRnU


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

It's amazing to me that the other officers didn't come to the aid of the one being bit. I would NOT want to be on the streets with those officers as my backup after seeing this.

The officer being bit never fought back that I could see, he turned himself into helpless prey to that dog. Things might have gone differently if he'd actually tried to fight back.

I agree with Bob about grabbing the back legs. I saw plenty of things to sling that dog into once it let go of the victim, which most will do when grabbed by the back legs, just from the surprise. They generally will try to turn to go after the new attacker letting go of the person/dog/animal they were biting. Sling that sucker into that brick wall or street lamp a few times and I think the problem would be solved. Even the guy being bit could have slung the dog into something, although it looked like his flight instincts had kicked in. 

To bad nobody, none of the cops or civilians there, remained level headed enough to actually help.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Bob Scott said:


> Looking at the video again I see a pole to sling the dog against, a pointy picket fence to slam the dog onto. Of course it's always easier to look back and say what we'd do. The dog doesn't look like a lightweight either but I'm guessing adrenalin could help that a bit.
> A clear head in the moment is something we'd all hope for.


Bob, at the risk of sounding a bit morbid or cruel I like the way you think. Someone asked what a plan might be for someone in this situation and I recall what an older lady that sold me my 2nd DDB bitch said about how she dealt with aggression/fights, "I use a fire extinguisher, it takes the oxygen out of the air and buys you some time to stop the attack."

I've never had to resort to that but I have been in similar situations and everything you said was dead on. One thing I wanted to comment on, or rather add to, was that a rightfully placed and strong kick up under the ribcage just above the soft belly would have promptly put an end to this. If not the same with one person at the scruff and another at the rump to grab and elevate the dog up would have done the trick. IMO snatching the dog up after such a kick would have greatly neutralized the threat, and probably would have stopped it altogether.

And as foolish as it sounds any type of kitchen utensil or similar object jammed deep into the mouth would have released the bite as well. Obviously, keeping the dog from reengaging at that point would have been the challenge. But I might have been inclined to suffer through it, even if for a moment for someone to come in and in the interim I'd stop flailing. I strongly suspect that end of reaction and rightfully directed intervention may have put an end to the biting/attack from that particular dog.

As a side bar, this isn't speculation on my part. I've stopped dog fights and attacks in the past with similar tactics. I certainly feel badly for that man and others, who didn't seem to have the presence of mind to interrupt what was happening to him/them.


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## mike finn (Jan 5, 2011)

Bob Scott said:


> When the dog is attacking a human, grab both back legs and gut kick the crap out of it! I've done it with large dogs in breaking up dog fights (without the gut kicking). In the dog on dog instance ideally you need two people with the same mind set. Dog on human and it's no holds barred!
> If you have a heavy club, tire iron, etc then use it across the dogs back. Try and break it! Back or tire iron, which ever breaks first. Having a CC permit would also be helpful.


 You have some good advice here. I have broken up dog fights just like that. Heree is a video that shows an old man and a woman helping a guy who is getting attacked. Then some cops come on scene that are actually armed to finnish the dog.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P1I4ZhOc1Xg&feature=related


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

The break stick/ parting stick method 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mevd_GETOKM


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## Gerald Dunn (Sep 24, 2011)

Ben Thompson said:


> The break stick/ parting stick method
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mevd_GETOKM



ok, so now I'm being told not to grab the back legs or kick but to walk around with a tent peg ](*,)


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Well, not necessarily a tent peg.

Wasn't this the same suggestion?



Nicole Stark said:


> And as foolish as it sounds any type of kitchen utensil or similar object jammed deep into the mouth would have released the bite as well. Obviously, keeping the dog from reengaging at that point would have been the challenge.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

I can tell you what you don't do is run up and down the street screaming like a little girl hyping the dog up more. If you're going to scream it better be a whole string of MF'er's I am going to kill you. Get mad, not helpless while the dog uses you for a chew toy. There are a few officers in that vid that need to get their butts seriously kicked by the one officer. Hard to believe the Irish don't rule if that was an example of what they were up against.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> I can tell you what you don't do is run up and down the street screaming like a little girl hyping the dog up more. ...


Yeah, I agree: that does sound like a solid Step One of any plan for that kind of situation.


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## Dana McMahan (Apr 5, 2006)

Another potential method would be to get between a gate or door and use that to pry the dog off and keep from rebiting. It looked like in the begging there was a gate and there are several vehicles nearby that if kicking and hitting didn't work is leverage a door and pry the dog off that way.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Just an FYI for two dogs fighting.
Obviously this is a particular situation but it can be kept at a kennel, training club or a OB class. I used it successfully on a number of occasions when I taught OB classes.
A large tupperware dish with lid. Keep a beach towel in it with a water/ammonia mix. Not dripping wet but damp. 
When the two dogs get into it just toss the wet beach towel over both their heads. The ammonia will put off even the most dedicated fighter. 
Again, you don't want it wet enough to drip in the eyes and the ammonia is only about 10%.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

I have broken up a lot of dog fights. I got a hot shot in one hand and grab the dog with the best grip by the collar and give it a 180 degree twist so he can't breathe until he opens his mouth. I use the hot shot to back the other dog off....if it one of mine. I grab the collar because if I can control the head....I can control the dog. I never tried grabbing the legs because dogs are too damned flexible.


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

suggestion to my comrades across the pond....control the collar and use your handcuff to pry the dogs mouth open...


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Ben Thompson said:


> The break stick/ parting stick method
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mevd_GETOKM


This a solid method with two dogs and two people there or if only one dog is the aggressor but i would think its difficult to use one when your being attacked except to stick it in its mouth and its not the way they were originally intended for.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

The original vid is now taken down???


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Go to youtube.com if it's down.... Or better yet, go apply for a police officer position in England. :grin:


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Nah my right knee is gone, takes away the flight option.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Interesting that there was no mention of this incident on the news today that I could see,,,,also, the plethora of vids of the incident seem to have gone from you tube. Try this one... I had to put in a phony date of birth for this..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1qhSwyCgx00&has_verified=1


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Did u fake older or younger, just askin.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

maggie fraser said:


> .... I had to put in a phony date of birth for this..
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1qhSwyCgx00&has_verified=1


It didn't ask me for a date of birth. Does this mean that even the internet knows I'm old?


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Connie in yr case I would use the word more refined and elegant ...hey how about that for suck job.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Connie Sutherland said:


> It didn't ask me for a date of birth. Does this mean that even the internet knows I'm old?


You can see on the link that it has been verified,,(by me), I submitted a date of birth so as all the viewers can watch supervised. wtf ?? never saw that before. And of course the internet knows you are old....it knows everything about us. :-s


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> Connie in yr case I would use the word more refined and elegant ...hey how about that for suck job.


 
You mean,, even more refined and elegant ?? :lol:


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

maggie fraser said:


> You can see on the link that it has been verified,,(by me), I submitted a date of birth so as all the viewers can watch supervised. wtf ?? never saw that before.


I saw that "verified" thing on the link. That's what it means? Did the link look different before you put in an adult date of birth?

This is mind-boggling!


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Yes!! No link until you 'verified'! No verify date of birth, no link to video ! 

(currently unsober)


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

maggie fraser said:


> Yes!! No link until you 'verified'! No verify date of birth, no link to video !
> 
> (currently unsober)



Hmmmm ..... :lol:


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## Tammy St. Louis (Feb 17, 2010)

Don >>>I got a hot shot in one hand>>


whats a hot shot?


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## eric squires (Oct 16, 2008)

Law enforcement officer at least in my area do not receive training on how to deal with dogs. It seems as if it would be a good idea at least based on this. I have seen armed officer do what the other officer did in this video. I know of at least patrol officer that is very frightened by dogs as he was attacked as a kid, but he has mulitpul firearms to deal with the problem.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

maggie fraser said:


> Interesting that there was no mention of this incident on the news today that I could see,,,,also, the plethora of vids of the incident seem to have gone from you tube. Try this one... I had to put in a phony date of birth for this..
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1qhSwyCgx00&has_verified=1


Police are too embarassed to want the vid highly published.


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## Hans Akerbakk (Jul 1, 2008)

I guess this isn't the swat team.:lol:
Maybe more departments should adopt this roosting perch style of policing, the way I see it 5 guys on the ground 5 guys hurt and going to the clinic, 3 hens on thier roosting perches clucking comands all are okay and able to protect the citizens for another day.
If the other 5 would have used the roosting perch system then all 8 would be fine and they could have calmed the dog with some gentle cooing.:-k


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Tammy St. Louis said:


> Don >>>I got a hot shot in one hand>>
> 
> 
> whats a hot shot?


Electric cattle prod with 5-6 C or D size batteries. Think e-collar on a stick! :-o
My grandfather thought it was funny to zap us kids on the ass with one. Evil old bast.......man!


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Hans Akerbakk said:


> I guess this isn't the swat team.:lol:
> Maybe more departments should adopt this roosting perch style of policing, the way I see it 5 guys on the ground 5 guys hurt and going to the clinic, 3 hens on thier roosting perches clucking comands all are okay and able to protect the citizens for another day.
> If the other 5 would have used the roosting perch system then all 8 would be fine and they could have calmed the dog with some gentle cooing.:-k


ROFLMAO :lol::lol:


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Hans Akerbakk said:


> .... Maybe more departments should adopt this roosting perch style of policing, the way I see it 5 guys on the ground 5 guys hurt and going to the clinic, 3 hens on thier roosting perches clucking comands all are okay and able to protect the citizens for another day.
> If the other 5 would have used the roosting perch system then all 8 would be fine and they could have calmed the dog with some gentle cooing.:-k



I had not previously been familiar with the roosting perch method. It seems sound and practical to me.

Plus I can't stop laughing at this description of it. :lol: :lol: :lol:


_
"If the other 5 would have used the roosting perch system then all 8 would be fine and they could have calmed the dog with some gentle cooing."_


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

eric squires said:


> Law enforcement officer at least in my area do not receive training on how to deal with dogs. It seems as if it would be a good idea at least based on this. I have seen armed officer do what the other officer did in this video. I know of at least patrol officer that is very frightened by dogs as he was attacked as a kid, but he has mulitpul firearms to deal with the problem.


I think you are dead on Eric. Cops are not necessarily dog people and are just as scared of them as most of the population. I think this is why we constantly see cases in the news of cops shooting dogs that most of would seem of us would deem harmless.


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