# Growth rates for GSDs



## Woody Taylor (Mar 28, 2006)

Here's a site I found awhile back when trying to figure out Annie's development: 

http://www.nwk9.com/weight_height.htm

Any feedback on what this may be based on, how accurate it may be (at least in terms of proportion and overall growth weight, if not actual weight)?


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

I see now where the weights came from. Good post.


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## Woody Taylor (Mar 28, 2006)

Just wondering about its accuracy because it definitely woke me up if you look at proportional growth...Annie always had digestive problems early on and I started upping her diet in volume and with Seameal and she had a HUGE spurt around month 6/7 (like ten pounds, way too fast) and this chart helped me realize that I needed to chance up the equation a bit before I wrecked her. Even in straight weight she has developed within 3-4 pounds of this chart (she's 63 pounds at nine months) and her growth, proportionately, has been dead on...that was why I was wondering about the heavier GSDs from working lines because I have been amazed at how "predictable" she has been. This chart is citing FCI from 1991 as a standard but still, I have not found a lot of charts with the level of detail that are on this website (I have not spent all that much time looking!).

It's interesting that me and my dog, working in a vacuum, would track to this thing so closely. Annie's bloodlines have no association with this website, I just found them on a Google search. Not that this is an ideal or anything, but I also don't think this chart is an average (?)? I can't believe there would be GSDs that much lighter as, say, yours (Jerry) and Jenni's Caleb are that much heavier.

This is what I get for doing and teaching stats for too long in my real life.


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## Guest (Apr 20, 2006)

Woody, different lines mature at VERY different rates. Caleb is extremely slow to mature mentally and physically, and just lost his awkward puppy physique recently. Mentally...well...a little young yet... :roll: . Large GSDs are not desireable, but the working world doesn't really give a rat's a$$ what the AKC says or doesn't say about what a dog should weigh. The emphasis has been in the past, and still should be, if a dog can do the work or not. Caleb's father was a giant dog, but old, and in great health, so I overlooked the size. He's about 15-20lbs smaller than his dad, so I'm ok w/that. I bought him DESPITE his size; not because of it. I am against anyone breeding for large size. Caleb is about as athletic and agile as he can be for his size, and is a good climber and jumper. His bones are just very heavy; he really doesn't look all that big. There are dogs who absolutely tower over him, yet weigh the same or only a few pounds more...I really think it's bone. He looks slightly like a starving horse or a runway model, but still tips the scales at the low to mid 90's. His lines are also older, having several 10-12yr gaps in generations, so obviously there were some sizeable DDR GSDs in the past. The King and Shiloh don't apply here. Anyway, I get a little nauseous when someone wants to breed to Caleb because of his looks and size, but if he turns out to be a good worker and healthy, I wouldn't NOT breed him based on size. Capiche?


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

Jak has never weighed as much as that chart says he should have for his age. He didn't hit 50 pounds until he was 8 months old, and even now, at almost 11 months old, he is certainly no 70 pounder! I need to get his weight, but I'm pretty sure he's around 60-65 pounds.


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## Guest (Apr 20, 2006)

I didn't weigh Caleb from 8.5 weeks until about 15mos. I just didn't care. He was eating good food, growing steadily, and it I didn't feel I needed a growth chart to tell me if my dog was healthy. I was the shortest kid in the class and now I'm normal/shortish. It also took me until junior year in high school to weigh 100lbs...but I made up for it :wink: . My point is we all grow at different rates depending on a variety of factors, and worrrying over what a chart says is not as important as providing all things necessary for HEALTHY growth; if you've done all that...don't sweat the charts.


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## Woody Taylor (Mar 28, 2006)

I got you...I'm saying that this chart was uncanny in how well it predicted Annie's growth (I didn't manage Annie's weight to the chart, I'm saying after the fact she mapped out against this...I am a data geek and I get caught up in nonsense stuff like this in spite of myself) and I'm curious about some of the claims on the page itself:
1. Minimal weight gain after 12 months;
2. Physical adulthood at 18-24 months but up to 36+ months for eastern european (and I'm curious to know about why there would be such a dramatic difference b/t east-west bloodlines!);
3. The midranges (which I hope are medians but should be averages of around 59.5 pounds for females and 77 pounds for males...it's hard for me to believe that would be statistical average unless this refers to a very specific region/set of bloodlines but I'll give it the benefit of the doubt)
etc...basically, did someone pull this stuff out of their butt or does it line up with reasonable expectations to have for their dog.

I'm personally curious to see if Annie "should" top out on weight for the most part after 12 months just because that would be something I need to monitor given that she will not, for the time being, be as active as the dogs alot of you all work. She gets worked but nothing like the way you all are working your high-level sport and PSD dogs.

It was just odd for me to find something this granular at this particular site (and not references at places like the leerburg forum, etc). This is all geek speculation; I'm just curious how these numbers hold up against the various bloodlines in this forum, particularly on proportional growth.

It was a slow day at work, what can I say?   Sometimes numbers get me thinking, i didn't say it was always useful. :lol: Or interesting.


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## Guest (Apr 21, 2006)

Woody, I got what you were saying about Annie and the chart and all. I just was pointing out that the charts can be WAY off for some lines, and it can cause people to freak if their dog isn't measuring up-not that you were doing this.  

There is a huge difference sometimes between E/W sizes and growth rates. I think this is why some people don't like DDR dogs; if you're in a hurry for the thing to grow up, they're not for you. :wink: I think more GSDs are like Annie than Caleb, so the charts overall probably do apply to the majority of dogs. Also, those are probably intended to be guidelines for the general population. It would be quite tedious to break it down much further into specific lines, so they stuck with generic East/West stuff, and overall GSDs from all backgrounds. I am as into pedigrees and nutrition research as you are into numbers and stats, so you're not the only nerd around. :wink:


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

I weighed Jak over the weekend and now, at 12 months of age, he is pretty much exactly 60 pounds. According to this chart, he should already be 76 pounds! I'm with Jenni in that I don't like huge shepherds, but should I be worried that Jak is only 60 pounds right now?


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

We have a mother son pair of GSDs at club. Both are mature dogs yet nerither top 55 lbs. Absolutely nothing wrong with them other then their small size. They work like a couple of Mals. Fast, agile and hard hitting.
Since the owner is a tiny little gal of about 95lbs, it's a perfect match.


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## Stacia Porter (Apr 8, 2006)

Kristen Cabe said:


> I weighed Jak over the weekend and now, at 12 months of age, he is pretty much exactly 60 pounds. According to this chart, he should already be 76 pounds! I'm with Jenni in that I don't like huge shepherds, but should I be worried that Jak is only 60 pounds right now?


Kristen,

Achilles is 65 cm at teh withers and only weighs 65 lbs (at 15.5 months). He was only 60 lbs at Jak's age. 

I hate growth charts. I hate them for human babies, I hate them for dogs. They cause nothing but undue worrying and stress. Your dog should grow nice and steady, no major growth spurts. Keep them on the thin side, and adjust food amounts carefully according to whether your dog looks thin or chubby to you, or just right. I don't like large shepherds, and I cringe when I see one overweight; those hips can't take it. It took us forever to realize that Achilles had stopped growing taller because it was so gradual, as has been his weight gain.

If your baby is human: don't listen to a word they say! Those charts are seriously outdated and used 100% formula fed babies. They don't taek anything into account and lots and lots of money is wasted every year on testing babies who are "too small" or "too big." One of my friends even had a doctor offer to give her 2 year old horomone injections to slow her growth based on the charts b/c she was on par to be a 6 foot woman! WTH?


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

I'm just being a worrywart. I guess everyone that keeps asking me if he's mixed with something, or saying he looks more like a 6 or 7 month old instead of a one-year old, or telling me I should feed him more so he'll grow some is starting to get to me. :x


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## Woody Taylor (Mar 28, 2006)

Hey, just to clarify, I think those are FCI standards from 1991. I wanted to post them because I was interested in proportional growth, not absolutes. My dog followed it pretty well over time in weight and proportion, but I was more interested in whether those growth *rates* were indicative of common experience by you all.


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## Guest (Jun 12, 2006)

Kristen: 2 words-He's FINE. :wink: 

Consider yourself lucky that you and your dog do not weigh the same! I promise you, same size, maybe; same strength, not a chance :x :roll: .


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## Stacia Porter (Apr 8, 2006)

Kristen Cabe said:


> I'm just being a worrywart. I guess everyone that keeps asking me if he's mixed with something, or saying he looks more like a 6 or 7 month old instead of a one-year old, or telling me I should feed him more so he'll grow some is starting to get to me. :x


LOL if you ever decide to have children, you'll hear more of the same! We seem to measure health in growth in America. The idea of "a person (or dog) is the size s/he is meant to be" doesn't work well I'm afraid.

Jak looks totally and completely fine. He is actually eating more than Achilles (who is on 3c of Candiae a day). How tall are Jak's parents? That's probably a better indicator of how he's doing than measuring him against other dogs. Achilles's parents are both at the tall end of teh standard, so it's not surprising that he is, too, KWIM?


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

Actually, Jak is eating about the same as Achilles now. I had upped it during his obvious growth spurt, but then he started losing his waist so I went back down. 2 1/2 - 3 cups a day is more normal right now. 

I don't think you got to see Butan, did you? Regardless, you know how tall Wayne is, and here're some pictures of them together:









Polly, Jak's mother, is on the smallish side, but is not extremely small. I don't have any pictures of her, and she is in Alaska, so probably won't get any unless her owner comes back down here.


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