# Tracking then air scent work



## Jennifer Coulter

For SAR or PSD folks that might teach both tracking and air scent type searching as seperate diciplines....

Let's say you subscribe to the theory of teaching tracking before teaching air scenting.

When and how do you decide your dog is "track sure" and start with air scent training?


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## Nancy Jocoy

What is the ultimate goal? An air scent dog capable of working with a scent article or an "area search dog" that can do both?

The pendulum swings for me sometimes. I think for the former once the dog is capable of consistenty making the right choice with a scent article in the presence of distractor scents (e.g., other humans but also is clear on not following animal scent) I think they are ready for air scent problems and it is pretty easy to transition those from trailing problems. You can teach scent discrimination without a track though, just to be clear. 

For the latter, I am honestly not so sure when is best -- I am more inclined to say use either a trailing dog or an air scent dog but around here an air scent dog that can discrimiate scent is very efficient. I don't think the "area search dog" will ever be as good at trailing as a dedicated trailing dog.


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## Jennifer Coulter

Nancy there is no scent discrimination work in either the tracking or air scent profiles here. With the exception of the dog not taking cross tracks and such. There is no trailing profile available here. 

I am talking about a tracking dog working in a harness, on line when I speak of tracking. 

When I say air scenting profile, lets say there is no track available, either because too much time has passed or the area has been very contaminated with other searchers/tracks. I expect the dog to pattern independently and search for a scent cone for humans or human scented articles. I expect this to be done off lead of course. 

That said, I am not so much looking for when *I* should move from one to another, more what other peoples ideas are, so thanks for explaining your thoughts and the way things could work with scent discriminating dogs.


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## Howard Knauf

I'm currently teaching a tracking class to civilians in my area. Some want to move on to trailing type work and I was asked your very same question friday evening.

My response to those in the class that were interested was....I'd like to see the dog actually learn to track first, then go on to trailing. The way I look at it is this; FST is a very narrow discipline...dogs being somewhat lazy, it is easier to let them slip into trailing after they have learned to track instead of the other way around.

It is really cool to see a trailing PSD go into a straight up tracking mode when it suits them. I see this mainly on hard surfaces and in buildings with scent absorbing type of flooring. 

So, for me it's tracking first then trailing. The scent discrimination work comes later.

As far as determining when the dog is ready? Each dog is different but the only way to know for sure is to try them. One thing that I do is to have someone lay a walked track (not dug in) on a soft surface and walk the dog downwind of the track at a perpendicular angle. If the dog alerts to the presence of the track as you cross it, investigates it, then wants to follow it you are on your way. 

Howard


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## Jeff Threadgill

Howard Knauf said:


> I'm currently teaching a tracking class to civilians in my area. Some want to move on to trailing type work and I was asked your very same question friday evening.
> 
> My response to those in the class that were interested was....I'd like to see the dog actually learn to track first, then go on to trailing. The way I look at it is this; FST is a very narrow discipline...dogs being somewhat lazy, it is easier to let them slip into trailing after they have learned to track instead of the other way around.
> 
> It is really cool to see a trailing PSD go into a straight up tracking mode when it suits them. I see this mainly on hard surfaces and in buildings with scent absorbing type of flooring.
> 
> So, for me it's tracking first then trailing. The scent discrimination work comes later.
> 
> As far as determining when the dog is ready? Each dog is different but the only way to know for sure is to try them. One thing that I do is to have someone lay a walked track (not dug in) on a soft surface and walk the dog downwind of the track at a perpendicular angle. If the dog alerts to the presence of the track as you cross it, investigates it, then wants to follow it you are on your way.
> 
> Howard


I agree, tracking then trailing. Both are beneficial with any true street dog.


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## Jim Nash

When we put our new green PSD candidates thru their 12 week course we start tracking usually only about a week or 2 before starting air scenting . It's pretty easy to keep them on task for whatever we want them to do . I think as long as they know they are going to be successful in whatever they were commanded to do they will stick with it . 

Once on the street they tend to deviate between tracking , trailing , air scenting and it depends on the dog . For the most part the majority stick with what they were originally commanded to start the search with well into the search . Usually only after losing the scent do they revert to another form of searching to reaquire the scent . 

In training though I tend to try and keep the searches in one mode . If I start out tracking I want them to keep tracking . Air scenting the same thing .


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## Howard Knauf

I agree Jim. Unfortunately, a patrol dog school just doesn't afford enough time to conduct a comprehensive tracking effort separate from trailing. We do the same thing as you and experience the same behaviors in the working dog. In Jennifer's case she has the time to do both.


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## David Frost

Jim Nash said:


> In training though I tend to try and keep the searches in one mode . If I start out tracking I want them to keep tracking . Air scenting the same thing .


You don't do any tracks that turn into an air scent problem, or vice versa? During training, I like to do both. For example, a track that turns into a building search or a building search that turns into a track. I agree with the thoughts of starting tracking prior to air scenting. I really like mixing the two on occasion.

DFrost


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## Mike Di Rago

Jenifer,
We trained our dogs on tracking first and later introduced airscenting. They picked this up very fast weather
it was for articles or the person. In real life we would encourage the dog to leave the track and follow the scent if he came on the ''origin', by winding it. In case of backtracks etc.
Mike


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## Megan Bays

Howard Knauf said:


> So, for me it's tracking first then trailing. The scent discrimination work comes later...
> 
> Howard


What is the reasoning for training FST before trailing? Does anyone train just trailing, without doing the FST?

Reason I'm asking is we're starting the training with our bloodhound puppy, and have been doing mainly runaways in urban environments with different surfaces. All of our training has been short and sweet, and he's ended successfully every time. We haven't encountered any issues yet, and I was just curious if the way we are training could cause something to pop up further down the line.

Sorry that this is a bit off topic...


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## Howard Knauf

Not off topic...and a good question.

Primarily it's because FST training builds a good foundation. Working air scenting dogs can be a pain if they are allowed to be sloppy from the get go. The nature of the trailing dog is nose neutral, or high. This allows the dog to be 10 -20 feet off the original track in the right conditions and works fine for dogs off lead. It also gives a large window for the dog to miss a turn or any change in direction if on lead.

Being as your bloodhound is probably going to be on lead, be prepared to do a lot of running while the dog tries to figure out a problem instead of trying to stay with a track if it's there. If you have no track to begin with then you have no choice. To allow the dog to default to a tracking foundation just makes it easier to work and read them. JMO of course.


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## Nancy Jocoy

I have seen dogs that consistently trailed on the fringe (and even had one) and my understanding was that starting them to be track sure by tracking under good conditions under conditions that would not move the scent around too much (like early morning calm), would help prevent that.........working on the fringe is ok but harder to recover a lost trail.

But I will defer that my experience with tracking and trailing is limited to working two dogs, and watching others, and the other guys are a better source of answers --


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## mel boschwitz

Megan,
I've never done FST (and for the record the air scent dogs I've helped with haven't done any tracking/trailing first so can't add into that discussion),
But...like I said I've never done FST and have instead started my hounds with runaways like you are doing in various environments and moved up from there..
We make the end of the trail (finding the victim) the biggest and best thing for the dog, and am very happy with the results. My older dog (who is just over 2 and has been doing this a little over a year) works consistently solid in everything I have asked him to do. He trails/tracks or air scents as necessary in an effort to get to the end as soon as possible-which for SAR and what I need for him for L.E work, is great. We don't work fast, but steady and methodical, and I've seen him cut off the actual trail pretty remarkably in order to get to the end faster. Every few weeks we do motivational runs and then he's allowed to go as fast as he wants, otherwise he goes slower and steadier and I watch him closely for minute changes in body language that tell me he's losing the trail. Personally I have found that I DON'T put in extra miles and time travelling behind my dogs while they pick up a trail they have lost, because I have created a lot of drive and as soon as they start losing scent because they have missed a turn they are giving me a negative and correcting themselves.

But I'm reading about FST with a lot of interest because just because I don't do it with either of the hounds I have now, that's not to say I don't see its use and may well use it in the future

Mel


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## Jim Nash

David Frost said:


> You don't do any tracks that turn into an air scent problem, or vice versa? During training, I like to do both. For example, a track that turns into a building search or a building search that turns into a track. I agree with the thoughts of starting tracking prior to air scenting. I really like mixing the two on occasion.
> 
> DFrost


I mix on occassion but just do far more training keeping tracking and air scenting seperate . They get enough mixture in the real world usually on a daily basis . 

When I started 13 years ago we did alot more off lead air scenting searches with the dogs due to our availablity of squads and getting a solid perimeter set up fast . Some would start of tracking but much quicker then our current K9s go to air scenting . 

We've change now to alot more tracking and our success rate is better with the searches ending up shorter in duration . It also has resulted in better successs if it is found through the track that the suspect had made it out of the perimeter before it was set up , compared to when we air scented more throughout the perimeter in the old days because once you cleared the search area we usually had no other options . 

I just like to keep the dog focused more on the track due to it benefits . My dog is an exceptional air scenter and has made some great finds at times hitting the scent as he's getting out of the squad at times but I still like to focus on the track more .


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## David Frost

Jim, that does make sense. We probably do more rural than "city" work. Just the nature of the job. 

DFrost


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## Howard Knauf

Jim Nash said:


> We've change now to alot more tracking and our success rate is better with the searches ending up shorter in duration . It also has resulted in better successs if it is found through the track that the suspect had made it out of the perimeter before it was set up , compared to when we air scented more throughout the perimeter in the old days because once you cleared the search area we usually had no other options .
> .


Shorter successful searches equates to less running around. Always a benefit when wearing 25 pounds of gear in the sweltering heat.

We track on separate days than buildings or areas. It works out pretty good.


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## Megan Bays

So in a nutshell, are some of you getting at that FST can help a dog problem solve while searching? Whether it be tailing, air scent, etc?

I'm not trying to be argumentative here, but just trying to understand how FST would be an asset to training. Our bloodhound pup will be used for LEO work FWIW.

I wish Terry H would jump in here with his thoughts as well, as I don't recall reading about him doing FST.

With our pup, when he just goes blasting off, and we can tell he isn't concentrating on the track we'll slow him down. This seems to work to get his head back in the right spot. He works with his nose mainly on the ground, and if not raised just a little; what is the significance of where his nose is at? He is working on lead by the way.

Thanks for all the input.


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## Howard Knauf

Terry has the luxury of letting his hounds run for hours out of sight. They're baying dogs so no biggie. The dogs get good at what they do through their natural learning process and the breeding. I'm sure that they cover tons of ground and they have no human anchor slowing them down. Not that a human could hang with those dogs on lead for very long.

Slow a dog down and it is natural for them to put their nose down.


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## Nicole Stark

Howard Knauf said:


> Slow a dog down and it is natural for them to put their nose down.


What do you mean by that? I mean, in what context? I'm only asking because I've watched my own dog, which is a breed traditionally bred for bear, work tracks (bear) and I have wondered if when I see her slam on a scent (no other way to describe it when she's on it because when she's on it physically it looks like she 's overcome by it and I see behaviors from her not demonstrated in any other situation) and there's no slow plodding about it because when she encounters it she's always on a half run. This immediately quickens to a very short but rapid stride as she follows the track. It's only when she transitions to air scenting that I see her slow down.

Jen - I don't know if application would change the response but that's why I haven't offered my own thoughts to this thread. Nothing I've done with my dog qualifies as legitimate work to most here so I try to stay out of work/training type discussions - until I have a question. You have my interest and I'd like to know more about what prompted this question.


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## Bob Scott

From the point of view of having done airscent/trailing first then going to FST was a pain in the @$$. 
The problem was the dog used everything availible in doing real scent work. The ground, shrubs, wind direction, etc. He was great at it!
When I started doing FST for sport the dog had a lot of trouble keeping his nose in the track. Loose a corner and his head naturally went up because of his previous/foundation training. Scent the article from 100ft away and off he went. "To hell with the track. I know where it's at now". 
I did one "real world" training to keep him on his toes and the FST went to crap for a couple of weeks before he got it back again.
I do think FST is a nice foundation for real world scent work but I'd for sure start out with FST first IF your going to do both.


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## Joby Becker

Bob Scott said:


> I do think FST is a nice foundation for real world scent work but I'd for sure start out with FST first IF your going to do both.


grrr. thanks for telling me that now BOB!


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## Jim Nash

Megan McCallister said:


> So in a nutshell, are some of you getting at that FST can help a dog problem solve while searching? Whether it be tailing, air scent, etc?
> 
> I'm not trying to be argumentative here, but just trying to understand how FST would be an asset to training. Our bloodhound pup will be used for LEO work FWIW.
> 
> I wish Terry H would jump in here with his thoughts as well, as I don't recall reading about him doing FST.
> 
> With our pup, when he just goes blasting off, and we can tell he isn't concentrating on the track we'll slow him down. This seems to work to get his head back in the right spot. He works with his nose mainly on the ground, and if not raised just a little; what is the significance of where his nose is at? He is working on lead by the way.
> 
> Thanks for all the input.


For us the speed of the track depends on the dog . Some are at a jog and some are at a fast walk . I have found slowing down is not beneficial to some dogs so we try to find the pace that's good for the individual dog . All are faster then Schtz. style FST . 

Tracking for me is nose close to the ground . Trailing is nose higher about 6" plus off the ground with the dog still moving along the path the suspect fled . Air scenting is the dog's nose even higher then in trailing with the dog now working the scent in the air currents usually moving in and out of scent working towards the source . 

Each dog is a little different in our 21 K9 unit during searches . 

My current dog when tracking is nose to the ground moving fast(fast jog)on soft surfaces (grass , dirt , weeds) and much slower while tracking on hard surface , when he does track on hard surface . Typically on a search he will track quickly on soft surfaces then transition to trailing (fast pace) on hard surfaces then go back to tracking if the subject's flight path goes back on soft surfaces . Air scenting can come in sometimes also but usually only if he loses the track or trail .

If anyone saw or remembers my real track on Animal Planet it was a slow track on concrete then once he the flight path went on to grass he took off tracking very quickly . So much so we lost the camera people for a bit . He tracked so hard he was still focussed on the track til only about a foot before he got to the badguy . It wasn't a typical search for him because he usually trails quickly on concrete but on that occassion he had a track and was sticking to it . 

For us tracking is an assett because we have found it much more successful then when we allowed the dogs to transition more often to air scenting or trailing . Our dogs still transition between the 3 (some more then others) but keeping them more focussed on tracking has been way more successful . 

Not saying it's for everyone , but for the environment in our city (and inner cities have there own unique environments) it works great for us .


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## Howard Knauf

Nicole Stark said:


> What do you mean by that? I mean, in what context? .


 If you have a drivey tracking/trailing dog, and slow him down he will put nose to the ground to get whatever he needs to fulfill his desire to continue. If you let him run on the track and he has trailing experience he will naturally keep his head higher as Bob as explained in his experience. Trailing is easier and the satisfaction of forward movement fuels his needs. If he's going at a slower pace he'll work with what you give him...the terrain immediately in front of him if there is a track there for him to work out.

Not saying that every dog is going to do this but that is one way we get our patrol dogs to stay a little more track sure. Like Jim, our dogs track/trail at almost a full run (can't catch bad guys doing FST) if they get sloppy we slow them down a bit and the nose drops.


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## Phil Dodson

>I will probably receive some criticism here (lots) LoL, but I start tracking not caring about wind direction. I think the dog already knows instinctivly what method to employ without our assistance. I have the quarry simply disappear, and if the K-9 wants him bad enough, he will once again use which method suits him at the time to locate his prey.

> Once proficient on line, I cut them loose to work off the lead. There is a lot that goes on prior to this however, but once again I believe in letting the K-9 use whatever suits him best at the moment. By free searching as I do, I am not interfering or restricting his natural talents!!


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## Megan Bays

Jim Nash said:


> For us tracking is an assett because we have found it much more successful then when we allowed the dogs to transition more often to air scenting or trailing . Our dogs still transition between the 3 (some more then others) but keeping them more focussed on tracking has been way more successful .
> 
> Not saying it's for everyone , but for the environment in our city (and inner cities have there own unique environments) it works great for us .


Jim why do you think tracking is more successful for you all in your environment? I'm really interested in hearing the different thought patterns here.

Do you think training more in a tracking style keeps them oriented on the task better? Or that the dog can follow scent better this way? Do you think there is a difference in the way this would work for hounds vs pointy eared dogs?


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## Jim Nash

Megan McCallister said:


> Jim why do you think tracking is more successful for you all in your environment? I'm really interested in hearing the different thought patterns here.
> 
> Do you think training more in a tracking style keeps them oriented on the task better? Or that the dog can follow scent better this way? Do you think there is a difference in the way this would work for hounds vs pointy eared dogs?



When I first started in out unit we concentrated more on off lead air scenting since we felt in most cases we have the suspect contained in a good perimeter with assisting squads . Some would start attempting a track other K9 units would start straight away off lead air scenting . But usually almost every K9 Unit would revert to air scenting . That was great if the suspect was still contained within the perimeter but if he wasn't then the search was usually ended if he wasn't found within the perimeter . Occassionally air scenting the K9s would pick up the scent and work it outside the perimeter to the suspect but that was usually an exception and not the rule . 

I think since we started working more on our tracking the K9s just stay foccused better on the track and work it to the source and on many occassions (more often then before) would work it outside the set up perimeter to the suspect . The other added benefit was the added recovery of evidence along the track . Most evidence is usually recovered during a track then while the K9 is air scenting .


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## Megan Bays

Thanks for your explanation Jim, it really helps me understand your view point better!


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## Bob Scott

Jim, if your dogs do pick up air scent when they are tracking it doesn't stop them from going directly to the perp, correct?
Dumb question but some really don't understand the difference between sport and real world tracking. 
If my dog air scents the article in FST sport he must still stay on the track. That was my big "problem" when I started in sport tracking. The dog was to good for it! :lol:


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## Jim Nash

Bob Scott said:


> Jim, if your dogs do pick up air scent when they are tracking it doesn't stop them from going directly to the perp, correct?
> Dumb question but some really don't understand the difference between sport and real world tracking.
> If my dog air scents the article in FST sport he must still stay on the track. That was my big "problem" when I started in sport tracking. The dog was to good for it! :lol:


Depends on the dog and depends on the situation . With both of my K9s I've had them transition between tracking and air scenting and there has been no set pattern . Sometimes they would track straight to the suspect , sometimes they would track then go to start air scenting to complete the search to the suspect . It could be any different combination of searching . I've seen the same thing with other K9s I've backed up in searches also . 

It just seems the more we trained for tracking the more they stayed focussed on the track itself to the completion in more situations . But that doesn't mean they still don't move in between different search behaviors from time to time . Whatever it takes as long as they find the badguy .


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## Gerry Grimwood

Pm's sent to everybody.


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