# Carrying the sleeve



## Kristen Cabe

I don't remember if I've asked this question before or not, but with the discussion on sleeve-carrying dogs in another thread, I figured it was relevent.


I KNOW I've mentioned the fact that Jak would rather thrash the sleeve around and kill it than prance around with it in his mouth. 

At SchH training, I was told that we needed to work on teaching him to sit and hold it without thrashing it, and then we could work on him carrying it.

At ASR training, they couldn't understand why that was so important. I tried to explain to them that at SchH training they wanted him to carry the sleeve in a counterclockwise circle once it was slipped, but they couldn't understand _why_, and of course, I couldn't answer that question because I don't know either. 

So that's my question: *Why is it so important for the dog to carry the sleeve after it's slipped? *


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## Andres Martin

To preserve a long standing tradition.

:lol:


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## Selena van Leeuwen

If a dog trashes or just don´t want his parade, i don´t do it. It is important for his winning feelings what gets him even higher in his preydrive.
As long as i´m working on prey (puppies till aprox 10-12 mo., depends on the dog) they may win and carry, when i get to civil agitation (from 10-12 mo., depends on the dog) they don´t win anymore.


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## Bob Scott

One of the reasons for carrying the sleeve is to keep the dog from getting chewy. It's when a dog stops that it starts chewing. Shaking is another thing altogether.
Teaching the full, calm bite is important in Schutzhund. Not so much in ASR.
Kinda like me. Chewing bubble gum and walking at the same time is difficult sometimes. :lol:


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## Kristen Cabe

When Jak is on the man, he has a full, calm, and confident bite. He doesn't chew or rebite when he's on the helper/decoy; it's only after he wins the sleeve that the thrashing and 'killing' happens. He wins the sleeve and then shakes it from side to side, and tries to lay down and chew on it, as you said. If I try to get him to run with it, he still shakes it and tries to lay down, which results in me essentially choking him off of it because I'm trying to drag him along and he's trying to lay down. 


So _should I_ be having him sit and hold the sleeve, then, to teach him not to thrash and 'kill' it, or not worry about it since he's fine on the helper/decoy? No defense work has been done with him to this point, so it's all still play to him right now. For those that don't remember, he's 13 1/2 months old.


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## Jerry Lyda

It is as Bob said. It's a calm after the storm. NO WHERE on the Schutzhund field or trial does the dog carry the sleeve. The main thing is that he bites it. I want my dog to bite it, carry if he will and if he doesn't carry he better be watching the decoy.


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## Jerry Lyda

kristen I'll see you Saturday and we'll work on him with the carry.

Now, he thinks it's dead no more fight in it so he plays with it. I'll show you how to keep it alive until you ask him to out it or sit there with it,calmly.


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## Andres Martin

Hi Jerry,

I've done the parading and playing with the sleeve a bunch, but I've never done that (Have the dog sit there calmly with the sleeve in his mouth) before. How do you do it, and what is the purpose behind it? What particular dogs does this benefit? In what way?

Thanks,

Andres.


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## Kristen Cabe

Jerry, I would appreciate it very much.

Andres, Wayne said he likes to teach the dog to sit and calmly hold the sleeve before he tries to get the dog to move with it. He says it's easier that way.


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## Bob Scott

Jerry Lyda said:


> It is as Bob said. It's a calm after the storm. NO WHERE on the Schutzhund field or trial does the dog carry the sleeve. The main thing is that he bites it. I want my dog to bite it, carry if he will and if he doesn't carry he better be watching the decoy.


Absolutely the best reason for people to quit worrying about the dog shaking, thrashing, laying down and chewing on the sleeve. 
It doesn't happen in a trial. No helper in his right mind is going to slip a sleeve for a dog he may never have seen before.


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## Kristen Cabe

Well, see, that's what I was thinking, but others have said that carrying builds the dog's confidence, and shaking is a sign of conflict, etc. So I don't know what to think. :lol:


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## Jerry Lyda

Andres, Your question," How do you do it."

After the dog has bitten the sleeve you want to be close so that you can bend over and put one hand under the dogs lower jaw. Here you can help support the weight of the sleeve. YOU STAY CALM. The leash will be in the other hand. Slowly move the leash hand so that you can slowly stroke the dog Calmly with quite praise. Stay there as long as he does. When he drops it lift him up so that he can't rebite and kick the sleeve away. Now you start all over. Ain't this fun????


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## David Frost

I understand this is a sport thing, but I've never understood it. In my business, slipping the sleeve will get you bit. We practice different scenarios where an attempt it made to distract the dog. I've said before, we train; the dog bites when told and continues biting until he's commanded to do something different.

DFrost


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## Stacia Porter

Kristen Cabe said:


> I don't remember if I've asked this question before or not, but with the discussion on sleeve-carrying dogs in another thread, I figured it was relevent.
> 
> 
> I KNOW I've mentioned the fact that Jak would rather thrash the sleeve around and kill it than prance around with it in his mouth.
> 
> At SchH training, I was told that we needed to work on teaching him to sit and hold it without thrashing it, and then we could work on him carrying it.
> 
> At ASR training, they couldn't understand why that was so important. I tried to explain to them that at SchH training they wanted him to carry the sleeve in a counterclockwise circle once it was slipped, but they couldn't understand _why_, and of course, I couldn't answer that question because I don't know either.
> 
> So that's my question: *Why is it so important for the dog to carry the sleeve after it's slipped? *


I'm so glad you posted this, Kristen! I've been meaning to ask the same question since you told me about Jak's thrashing.

Achilles was taught to slip the sleeve and carry it calmly. We were always told by our SchH club in Germany that this was the way its done. It does occur to me, though, that parading the sleeve shows off a dog's gait, so maybe that has something to do with it?

BTW, they DO slip the sleeve during the courage tests at the BundesSieger (I watched them do it). I'm not sure if it's done during the actual trial, but it is done at the courage tests...not one of hte dogs we saw did anything but carry it away (of course this was the "show" dogs; I didn't get the chance to go to the BSP like I wanted).

I can see how this could be dangerous for a helper...


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## Mike Schoonbrood

There is alot to carrying a sleeve, alot goes on in a dogs head with this and alot of things are taught to a dog. The reason it has such a bad reputation among "real" dog trainers is because most trainers don't know why its done, they just do what they were taught to do. I can't explain it as well as my trainer can, he's a master at explaining the how and the why of training to people, but he doesn't post on message forums. I'm hoping someone can jump in here and perhaps explain it better than I could.


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## Jerry Lyda

I can see where it's about winning for a young dog. This builds confidence to a young dog that is not sure. Then it becomes habit as the dog gets older even though he is now confident. If a young dog will go civil and has no fixation for the sleeve or anyother piece of equipment then so be it.

A dog that will not carry the sleeve and is bitting good, if you watch him, he will keep his attention on the decoy. 

So I see the carrying of the sleeve as two things. 1- builds confidence 2-the calm after the storm. my $.02


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## Jerry Lyda

I'm sure these aren't the only two reasons. This is a good topic. Anyone else see a reason or reasons for carrying the sleeve? Let's get to the bottom of this question. This will be fun.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

If the sleeve carrying is so mandatory, then why don't the ring dogs do it? From what I can see, some dogs "might" need to carry the sleeve, but honestly look at why they "need" to do this. Did the encounter with the decoy leave them in such a state that they need to de-stress by carrying the sleeve around? Or, has the handler, for no reason other than they have seen others do this have his dog do so? I watched a dog carry a sleeve around for 20 minutes. It was trained to do so, as I saw no other reason for it.

De-stressing a dog allows it to compete in a sport. Take that away, and would the dog be able to handle the work?

Kristen, your dog probably doesn't need to carry squat. Leave the weak dog help to the weak dogs, and just take the sleeve from him. And for God's sake, stick with ASR. Sch is just soooooo much crap. Of course, ASR is crap compared to Mondio, and French ring, so maybe you should try those instead. Leave the weak to the weak. :twisted: :lol:


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## Kristen Cabe

Jeff, do you honestly think I could train for Mondio right now?! I'm having a hard enough time with the "easy" SchH stuff! :lol: Jak DID take right to the suit, though. No hesitation to bite from my boy! As long as he gets to bite something, he's happy - even if it means dragging all the equipment off the equipment table. 


I'd like to get a video of me and Jak this weekend, so then I can post it and you all can laugh at my clumsy butt, but more importantly, see Jak's behavior from start to finish, and then tell me what the deal is. I honestly don't think it's from stress; I think it's just that he still views the sleeve the same way he views his toy, and it's all just a game still (He's still young and very new to doing it, after all). He is just shaking the sleeve like he does his toys here at home when he plays with them. It isn't that he's beating the sleeve up or anything like that.


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## Jerry Lyda

Now let's see what the FRENCH offer. 1- French fries 2- French fries 3- and don't forget, white flags. No, ASR is the only way to go.

I just order fries now, I hate to even type the word.

Glad you're here Jeff.


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## Connie Sutherland

Jerry Lyda said:


> ........Glad you're here Jeff.



Who isn't!? :lol:


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## Mike Schoonbrood

Actually the Dutch and the Belgian have the best damn fries you'll ever have... ofcourse, most people here in the US think it's weird to eat fries with mayo.... ofcourse, the mayo in holland tastes different so maybe if people tried the real stuff then they'd like it afterall


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## Jeff Oehlsen

First, check your history on the "french" fries.

#2 ASR is strange to me. I have heard the hype, and there are dogs competeing in it that I feel are getting an injustice.

I saw a video with the defence of handler (and I use this in the weakest sense) it took 15 seconds for the dog to get there, and then the bite is on the back of the arm. The handler could have been beaten to death before the dog got there. 

Anyone that knows dogs knows that control is where you separate the good from the ugly, and that it is easier for a dog to hold himself from a distance. I did not see many dogs in the videos that I saw that were trained to their potential in a lot of the exersizes. Not a slam on the whole sport, or the dogs/handlers, but VERY weak in a lot of areas.

Training is training, and to go with a weaker sport because of insecurities is silly, you don't know SCH very well, so why would Mondio be any different. At least by training in the better :twisted: sport, you improve your handling, and training, and can get a good idea of what a decent dog can do at the higher levels. PLUS if you do well, then you can compete at the WORLD championship.

Carrying the sleeve is not necessary, and I like a dog that wants to shake the crap out of you. :lol: 

Sorry folks, I call them as I see them. Besides, I need Mondio to grow, and PSA and ASR folks to step up!  :lol: :lol:


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## Stacia Porter

Mike Schoonbrood said:


> Actually the Dutch and the Belgian have the best damn fries you'll ever have... ofcourse, most people here in the US think it's weird to eat fries with mayo.... ofcourse, the mayo in holland tastes different so maybe if people tried the real stuff then they'd like it afterall


Mmmmmmm...pom fritz mit mayonnaise...IIch möchte zurück zu Deutschland gehen .

Is there even Mondio available in NC?


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote:Is there even Mondio available in NC?


No reason not to start your own.
The revolution will not be televised.


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## Stacia Porter

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote:Is there even Mondio available in NC?
> 
> 
> No reason not to start your own.
> The revolution will not be televised.


I think I'm a little less than qualified in this area  . Besides, at this point I can't even get to ASR w/o my @$%$# brand new car breaking down on me...Oh what a tragic life I lead (where the hell's the "drama queen" emoticon?)!!! Go not into the night...but rage against the dying of the light....So say the soothsayer.


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## Kristen Cabe

> Is there even Mondio available in NC?


There is, but it's way out in Sanford (about 3 hours from you, and 4 hours from me). They also train for PSA.




> No reason not to start your own.
> The revolution will not be televised.


Are you off your meds, Jeff? You're telling complete newbies to start up a mondio club? 8-[


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote:Are you off your meds, Jeff? You're telling complete newbies to start up a mondio club? 

I don't take meds, and yes I am.


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## Matt Hammond

CArrying thr sleeve is used to build a calm bite in YOUNGER dogs. The older they get the less they need it. Schutzhund in schutzhund lets leave it at that. 

Jeff, 

I don't know or follow Mondio so there for I don't bash it. I would ask and hope that you could do the same for ASR. 

The clip you saw in the DOWN FIELD defence of hander (down field being the key) is to show the willingness to protect the handler with no command given. Scott can give you the distance I am not real sure but it is a good ways, this is why you feel you could clock the dog with a sun dial. The decoy comes from the back of the handler and "attacks" putting the left/right arm infront of the handler. Once the dog has shown the intent to bite the decoy will backoff the handler so a safe and proper catch can be made. The target is the tricep or leg for the leg biters. 

Nothing in any sport is the real deal. You can never make it as such. You can try but lets be realistic no one is willing to take a live bite over and over on a trial. We make it as close to it as we can. 

ASR is like any "Sport" it has its good and bad. We are small right now but growing. The level of decoy pressure in my mind is the some of the hardest around. Nothing is scripted no set patterns to follow jsut work the dog.

We all have our sport we train for and we all like to think that ours is the best. But unless you are on a grave shift at 2am tracking a suspect with two active warrants wanted for shooting someone then you are training for a sport. Nothing real. Points and trophies.


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## Jerry Lyda

In real life, I'm not going to set there and WAIT to get hit by some nut case. In real life when I see the intent to be hit then the dog gets to bite and I don't get hit. Trials are trials and life is life. If an ASR dog will do it on the trial field you can bet your sweet ^&%^%$^& he'll do it for real.


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## Khoi Pham

The only fries we should be eating is FREEDOM fries, that is why I don't do French Ring or Mondio Ring or whatever the hell it is :lol: , sound like french to me. Jeff, stop bashing SCH or other sports that you are not in, all sports have its good and bad. You don't know even know 10% of what involve in training SCH so stop bashing it. I got my dog to SCH3 and now I am doing PSA, but before I join PSA I was also looking at French ring and Monido ring but people like you that are bashing other sports really turn me off from your sport man so if you want your sport to grow, promote it yes but don't bash other sport cuz that is not cool.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote:If an ASR dog will do it on the trial field you can bet your sweet ^&%^%$^& he'll do it for real.

OK, why? Generations upon generations of dogs come from BR and FR and KNPV. Why are you soooo sure that ASR is going to be able to do the same? (not retorical, I am interested in a response)

And since someone thought so highly of himself that he would ignore the fact that the other "sports" have been around for at least a hundred years, his program was better? PLEASE.

Sport IS sport, and this whole "unless your a cop thing" is goofy and a cop out. I have seen what they have for PD's, and 60% of what I have seen out there are 100% less dog than I have owned over the past 30 years. Considering some of the dogs I have had, that is weak.

OK, off the cop subject, not what I was intending. 

So back to the DOH. If you are trying to make it realistic, why didn't the struggle continue? If you are saying they will bite for real, why does the decoy take a back of the arm bite, which is weak. Realism would be the guy gets out of the way and attacks the dog. Besides my first point, which is the dog took way to long to get there, so that is kind of a goofy test in the first place.

Also, bashing can be (and should be in this case) thought of as a way to improve what it is you are trying to do. Anybody who has been in "sport" for any length of time knows that a dog is what he is. You CAN make a weak dog look better, but that only fakes out the n00bs. Old timers like myself look at it as a weak ass way to title a dog due to the handlers inabilities to train to the higher levels in conventional sport (or the dogs). PSA and ASR are weak as crap in these areas, that is why they can get popular so quickly. Might as well have the HH contest there. It is just so sad that there are people out there falling for this BS.

At the NM trial, there was a guy lamenting that if he had spent the same amount of time training for PSA, he could have had the dog to a PSA level 1. He failed the brevet. And for you sensitive types, I am not bashing him, I really hope he sticks with Mondio. I think he will do well. =D> 

I hope this gives new people an idea of the differences, and hopefully inspires them to try to do the HARD thing, and not cop out because they think they can't.

Besides, that will give me more people to talk to about training.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote:You don't know even know 10% of what involve in training SCH 

Funny, all those Sch 3 dogs I trained must be a dream. And all the people I helped train their dogs must have been a dream. You trained, what, one dog in Sch??? \/ 

I mean, congradulations and all, but I have been there. I also am applauding your effort to try MR, or FR. But for God's sake, stop being so sensitive that a post on a message board could change your mind. We don't go for sensitive here


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## Michele Moore

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote:Are you off your meds, Jeff? You're telling complete newbies to start up a mondio club?
> 
> I don't take meds, and yes I am.


I'm still a newbie and I'm starting up a Mondio club with some other fairly new people out here. Mondio is fun, go watch it...ignore Jeff if he offends you, don't knock the sport. Speaking of the NM trial there was some SchH guy in the crowd (not competing in the Mondio or the SchH trial) bragging that he could train his dog to do the Mondio 1 excersizes in 2 weeks...apparently we weren't watching the same trial or he must be one helluva trainer that I have never heard of :roll:


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## Jeff Oehlsen

He meant the brevet, of course.


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## Michele Moore

No Jeff, he said he could train his dog for that in a couple days. :roll: 
Like I said, he didn't even have a dog entered in the SchH trial so who knows what kind of dog it was, possibly superdog :lol:


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Oh sure, he probably is one of those expert Petco trainers. Train them or kill them, samey same.

Too bad you didn't get a card from this guy, we could all be ring three already.


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## Becky Shilling

> Oh sure, he probably is one of those expert Petco trainers.




Oh yeah? So how many breeds of dogs can he bark like? You guys saw this craziness I guess:

http://www.palmbeachpost.com/pbccentral/content/local_news/epaper/2006/07/19/s1b_deaddog_0719.html

And some more:


http://www.wptv.com/News/071806_WestBocaFamilySaysDogDiedatHandsofTrainer.cfm[/url]


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## Kristen Cabe

> I'm still a newbie and I'm starting up a Mondio club with some other fairly new people out here. Mondio is fun, go watch it


I'm not driving 8 hours (round trip), however many times a month, to the nearest club that trains for Mondio, just to watch. It's just not practical, especially with gas being $3 a gallon. It's bad enough that I have to travel 1 - 1 1/2 hour (one way) to train for ASR and SchH. For someone to suggest that I (or ANY newbie) start up a club to train for a sport that I know nothing about is just absurd. I'll be sticking to the two sports that are within reasonable driving distance and where I can learn from experienced people. IF, later on, it becomes something that I think I may want to try, then so be it, but right now, I'll stick to what's close.


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## Stacia Porter

Didn't an IPO3 dog just earn his MR3...only the 4th dog in America to earn one of those?

Correct me if I'm wrong...I thought Mondio was a "compilation" of all of the dog sports, not a means of bashing them all. If NM supports the idea that other dog sports aren't up to par, then why do they allow a dog to compete in MR at the same level as a title earned in anoter sport; i.e. if a dog is IPO3, he's eligible to compete in an MR3 trial?

Kristen's right: we can't drive ridiculous distances to watch and/or train in a sport and it's not advisable for people who have no clue what they're doing to just up and start a club, either...


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## Khoi Pham

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote:You don't know even know 10% of what involve in training SCH
> 
> Funny, all those Sch 3 dogs I trained must be a dream. And all the people I helped train their dogs must have been a dream. You trained, what, one dog in Sch??? \/
> 
> I mean, congradulations and all, but I have been there. I also am applauding your effort to try MR, or FR. But for God's sake, stop being so sensitive that a post on a message board could change your mind. We don't go for sensitive here


Oh no I meant people like you, which is more than one, another guy that just move into my town and came to my SCH club for some help and even though we don't do mondio we still put on his suit for him to help him out and give the dog some work, there he bash PSA sport, then he went to a PSA club for some help and bash SCH sport, it just seems like people in your sport have such an ego that they are the best and the rest is shit, I think mondio ring is for weak dogs, now don't go get sensitve on me ok Jeff, we don't go for sensitive here. :wink:


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## Jerry Lyda

Each sport has it's place. That place is where the heart is of the person that will be trialing in that sport. Will Rogers once said." There's no such thing as a bad boy." In the same respect, there's no such thing as a bad dog. This is the KEY, with proper training, even a weak dog can title in any sport. Sure it won't be easy. Most weak dogs will be given up on because it WILL take way to long to title them. I agree that this will be time NOT well spent.

It's all in what the person wants to do as well as accessablity to the training.

I still don't like the french. :x The ring is ok.   [/u]


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## Michele Moore

Stacia Porter said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong...I thought Mondio was a "compilation" of all of the dog sports, not a means of bashing them all. If NM supports the idea that other dog sports aren't up to par, then why do they allow a dog to compete in MR at the same level as a title earned in anoter sport; i.e. if a dog is IPO3, he's eligible to compete in an MR3 trial?
> 
> Kristen's right: we can't drive ridiculous distances to watch and/or train in a sport and it's not advisable for people who have no clue what they're doing to just up and start a club, either...


Ok, you're wrong in a couple places. I never said NM thinks all the other sports are lame. They have a Mondio and Schutzhund club that are sister clubs and everyone gets along great. I wish more clubs were like the club out there. I was sharing a humorous anecdote from the trial, thats all. I don't know where you read so much into it. Sheesh, some people on the internet are so literal!    I guess I'll use more smileys! :mrgreen: In fact from who I have met in Mondio, they promote people from other dog sports trying it out.

I didn't mean I'm new and have no idea what I'm doing, but look at it this way. If people never tried to train for something they were " new" to and if newbies didn't ever start clubs we wouldn't have all these dog sports. We probably wouldn't even have Schutzhund in the US. The directions for the Mondio exercizes are on their site in great detail btw.

I think this thread is hijacked enough and I'm off to drive 14 hours to go train with some mondio folks


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## Al Curbow

Jerry's first 2 sentence's said it all. Whatever club or sport you decide to try, the key is to surround yourself with people that don't let ego get in the way of teaching other's. I love learning different ways and hearing different views and outlooks on dog training. Oh yeah, keeping an open mind is important............. JEFF


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## Kristen Cabe

> I never said NM thinks all the other sports are lame. They have a Mondio and Schutzhund club that are sister clubs and everyone gets along great. I wish more clubs were like the club out there. ... In fact from who I have met in Mondio, they promote people from other dog sports trying it out.


I'm pretty sure she was talking about "Ringsport Jeff's" attitude towards the other sports, Michelle. :wink: 



> I didn't mean I'm new and have no idea what I'm doing, but look at it this way. If people never tried to train for something they were " new" to and if newbies didn't ever start clubs we wouldn't have all these dog sports. We probably wouldn't even have Schutzhund in the US. The directions for the Mondio exercizes are on their site in great detail btw.


*YOU* may not be completely "new and have no idea what [you're] doing," but I know *I* am. Honestly, HOW much good do you think it would do for someone who knows nothing about a sport (other than reading the rules on the internet) to start up a club to train for that sport, with no decoys and no experienced people to help? Please! The whole notion that clubs should be started by 'newbies' is just silly. SOMEONE needs to have some experience, or else it's just a bunch of idiots out there basically ruining dogs because no one knows what they're supposed to be doing, right? :lol:


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## Connie Sutherland

Kristen Cabe said:


> .......HOW much good do you think it would do for someone who knows nothing about a sport (other than reading the rules on the internet) to start up a club to train for that sport, with no decoys and no experienced people to help? Please! The whole notion that clubs should be started by 'newbies' is just silly. SOMEONE needs to have some experience, or else it's just a bunch of idiots out there basically ruining dogs because no one knows what they're supposed to be doing, right? :lol:


Hence the eagerness to find a good decoy and/or training director.......  Maybe someone will start a thread about what percentage of a newly-formed club can be 100% green and still be a success.......... Maybe they can all be green if the decoy/TD is experienced and a good teacher? Just a thought. 

So is "carrying the sleeve" all dried up as a topic? :wink:


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## Kristen Cabe

I think so, for now.


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## Connie Sutherland

Kristen Cabe said:


> I think so, for now.


Then come right over here and join me at "Training Discussion" ! :lol: 
http://www.workingdogforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?p=11359#11359

:wink:


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## Andres Martin

> So is "carrying the sleeve" all dried up as a topic?


Nope...  Not quite.

I tried what Jerry suggested on four show GSDs this morning. All of them pretty shallow biters, all reposition their bite - for the worse. They move towards the end of the sleeve, or position their mouth in a diagonal, or begin to loose pressure.

Evidently NONE of them like the pressure of biting, but they go ahead and do it...JUST barely.

My conclusion: carrying the sleeve relieves stress from biting a "man" for a weaker (defensive) dog; and holding the sleeve, assisted by the handler, after the "carry" reduces repositioning while on the man, and "desensitizes" the dog to his handler's proximity. Both results reduce chance of failure on the bite for show dogs.

Presumably, it (carrying and holding) will also reduce the intensity in a dog that is more socially aggressive, and will result in more pleasing results for judging purposes.

A high prey dog perhaps would not be affected one way or the other.

Thanks for the tips. I help out with the show dog people here, and I will now include this in my "repertoire", crediting Jerry Lyda and Steve C (from another forum) for the specifics, of course! :lol:


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## Stacia Porter

Michele Moore said:


> Ok, you're wrong in a couple places. I never said NM thinks all the other sports are lame. They have a Mondio and Schutzhund club that are sister clubs and everyone gets along great. I wish more clubs were like the club out there. I was sharing a humorous anecdote from the trial, thats all. I don't know where you read so much into it. Sheesh, some people on the internet are so literal!    I guess I'll use more smileys! :mrgreen: In fact from who I have met in Mondio, they promote people from other dog sports trying it out.
> 
> I didn't mean I'm new and have no idea what I'm doing, but look at it this way. If people never tried to train for something they were " new" to and if newbies didn't ever start clubs we wouldn't have all these dog sports. We probably wouldn't even have Schutzhund in the US. The directions for the Mondio exercizes are on their site in great detail btw.
> 
> I think this thread is hijacked enough and I'm off to drive 14 hours to go train with some mondio folks


Michelle, I was referring to Jeff. Kristen and I are repsonding to Jeff's suggestion that we start our own club..we're each training our first dogs in SchH and ASR. Further up the thread Jeff made comments about SchH and ASR/PSA as "weak."

I've read the Mondio site, and it looks great. To each his own...and if I didn't have to drive a serious distance to check it out, I'd have no issue with that suggestion. But I do, so at this time I will not. I'll stick to what we do have around here -- it's the helpers/decoys that I'm after in all honesty.

Andres, what do you think has caused this behavior in the dogs you worked this morning? Is it genetic, or is it a product of not-so-great training? I've never had an issue with Achilles bite (and he doesn't reposition), but being that he is a showline I watch out for potential "pitfalls."


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## Michele Moore

Ok Stacia, I was wondering since I was quoted in your response. Also by "go watch mondio" I didn't mean drive hours and hours, there are videos on the main site now too.


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## Kristen Cabe

Maybe I was looking in the wrong place, but the only video I can find is the Brevet. :?: :?:


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## Michele Moore

Theres one you can buy too of the championships in Spain a few years ago. I'm trying hard to stop being off topic in this thread!

I think the reason there is no sleeve carrying in ringsports is because the bite suits are a little expensive and heavy to have the dog dragging through the dirt. Joke! :lol: I know I get a tear in my eye whenever the Dobermans are thrashing my expensive SchH sleeve.


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## Andres Martin

> Andres, what do you think has caused this behavior in the dogs you worked this morning?


1) Bad upbringing, where the puppy was strongly corrected for putting his teeth on things, and
2) Genetics.

In that order.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote:SOMEONE needs to have some experience, or else it's just a bunch of idiots out there basically ruining dogs because no one knows what they're supposed to be doing, right? 

Welcome to where I started. Feeeeeeeelllll the indecision. Feel it.

You can screw things up, but most things are fairly minimal. Unless you are kicking the dog in the head you will be allright.

Dogsports are 90% obedience, and there are a lot of decoys that may have experience, but a lot of what I have seen is that they are safe, but really don't do that good a job with the "big picture". New Mexico has Mike Ellis in every other month. He gives them a plan, and they follow the plan.

Many of us started in the dark, and fought our way to the light. It felt pretty good when we got the hang of it, and was really worth it.


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## Kristen Cabe

> Unless you are kicking the dog in the head you will be allright.


You mean we aren't supposed to be doing that?  


:lol:


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: it just seems like people in your sport have such an ego that they are the best and the rest is crap, I think mondio ring is for weak dog, now don't go get sensitve on me ok Jeff, we don't go for sensitive here. 

I don't think it stems from ego as much as most of us started in SCH, and watched it get screwed up, getting weaker and weaker. People just accept that fact and didn't do anything about it. It is a shame.

Funny everyone sees it as bashing, and not overwhelming disappointment. If you came and trained with me, I would put on the sleeve, or lay a track, or help with OB. Sch just got carried away, and no one stopped the train wreck.

Plus, even if I only gave you 10% of what I know, you would get a better score in the end. You have no idea how high my standards are. I would definately whip you in shape.

Come on out and catch Buko, I am sure you wouldn't mind catching "weak" dogs like him. :lol:


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## Woody Taylor

Can we get back to sleeve stuff, please? Just got a PM from a knowledgeable person saying this thread had good and bad points about sleeve-carrying but has been torched by the weird posturing stuff.

If someone doesn't like Schutzhund, that's fine, do Ring or ASR. If you don't like Ring or ASR, that's cool, Andres can shoot machine guns at your dog and Al has a training ground out of the Mad Max movies, except hotter. Or do obedience or dog dancing or...

But can we just relax on posting *(and most importantly, responding to)* slams on particular sports and dog service? If the dog enjoys it, if the owner enjoys it, if it plays to the notions for which the dog was bred...works for me. And the ignorant new folks reading this thread don't get gut shot miserable impressions of how miserable and weak a given dog sport based on experience they will never have. Many of our dogs and our chosen sports are pretty much meaningless next to a good service dog that would no sooner bite you than sew for you but makes somebody's life a lot easier as a result of its disposition and training. Famous saying about "Arguing on the internet is like running..." PM me if you need/want the rest of that phrase. 

Sleeve carrying! Yes!


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## Kristen Cabe

Carrying: Click here to watch 062106-006
and Click here to watch 062106-007

Whoops! That's not a sleeve, is it?! #-o That's what he does with one, though.


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## susan tuck

Kristen, he didn't look hectic on the tire at all. Is he carrying the sleeve the same way? I didn't see any hecticness at all. When the agitator slips the sleeve does he carry the sleeve off the field & then do you out him or is he outing on the agitator then you take him off the field? When you were describing it, I got the impression he was slinging the sleeve back & forth & piano biting up & down it, but I didn't get that impression from the video clips. He looks happy & confident to me.

P.S. The REAL reason you guys don't like schutzhund is none of you want to get up at the ass-crack of dawn & track :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:
kidding - sort of


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Well since some one got all sensitive, here is my last post on this subject. Carrying anything is not important enough to talk about this much. Dogs from three other sports don't carry the sleeve, or even use one. There are many many other things to be concerned about other than this silly part. Tell your trainer not to worry about it, and see if he knows enough to deal with it. Then you can see how good your trainer really is.


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## Kristen Cabe

susan tuck said:


> Kristen, he didn't look hectic on the tire at all. Is he carrying the sleeve the same way? I didn't see any hecticness at all. When the agitator slips the sleeve does he carry the sleeve off the field & then do you out him or is he outing on the agitator then you take him off the field? When you were describing it, I got the impression he was slinging the sleeve back & forth & piano biting up & down it, but I didn't get that impression from the video clips. He looks happy & confident to me.


He carries the sleeve off the field. And yes, the way he carries the sleeve is the way he carries his tire. The concern was with the shaking back and forth during the carry. 

LoL @ the P.S. :wink: :lol:


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## susan tuck

but Kristen, he is not shaking it too bad. I wouldn't worry about it.


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## Mike Schoonbrood

Carrying the sleeve is a technique that teaches a dog certain things.... for every technique, there are 10 other techniques. Some people choose to teach the dog to carry, some trainers teach a dog to win/build confidence/hold onto the bite/view training in a certain light etc by doing something different with the dog. I see ring decoys slip the jacket to the dog all the time, some people may not like that, but that's a whole other debate in its own. I agree with Jeff, not worth having a 5 page discussion over, it's not going anywhere.


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## Andres Martin

Don't forget to click the ads every day to support this site!


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## Connie Sutherland

Andres Martin said:


> Don't forget to click the ads every day to support this site!


 8)  

Yep, that was brilliant to add the "signature" line, Mike!


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## Paul Coffman

Hey Jeff, have you EVER trialed in PSA? How many years did you trial in Sch. again? Just wondering.
I recently attended a Mondio trial, met alot of nice folks and saw some nice dogs. I honestly don't understand how you could EVER tell PSA or ASR folks to step it up :roll: . My club will play in Mondio and I like some aspects of it, but it doesn't test the dog. I hear the upper levels do step up the pressure which is good to hear and I hope to see more trials in the future but in my opinion you won't find a better test of a dogs courage than PSA. JMO


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## Connie Sutherland

Paul Coffman said:


> ......My club will play in Mondio and I like some aspects of it, but it doesn't test the dog. I hear the upper levels do step up the pressure which is good to hear and I hope to see more trials in the future but in my opinion you won't find a better test of a dogs courage than PSA. JMO


Hi, Paul, and welcome to the forum!


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## Gregg Tawney

Hi Paul - 

Good first post because.............. I agree with you. :wink: 

I think of all the american sports, PSA has one of the toughest courage tests. That is why I like it. There is also a fair amount of control, especially in the upper levels. Once you get into the open catogries their are scenarios that are not known until trial time. So training can become challenging. 

Worldwide, from what I have seen I still think KNPV is one of the toughest of all dog sports and produces some of the toughest dogs. That is why so many police agencies want a dog that has passed the KNPV ph1. Present company included. 

I think you will find good dogs in all of the sports and people should go with the sport that they like. To tell you the truth, if there was an ASR or Mondio club near me I would be interested in playing in that sport as well. 

Gregg


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## Jerry Lyda

Gregg. I wish there was a way that we could come to you like we did for the people in Spartanburg S.C. We had a great time and opened a lot of eyes to the ASR game. These dogs too have to be really tough.


Happy training and have fun doing it.


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## Andres Martin

> I would be interested in playing in that sport as well.


Hmmmm! :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: 
How much do handlers sweat during a trial?
Are handlers worried about ANYTHING other than points?
In PSA or ASR, do THE DOGS think they're playing?

Just some stuff to consider... :lol: :lol: :lol: 

Cheers.


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## Andres Martin

I would love to see a dog sport that incorporated Paint ball guns...at least! Mind you, I don't mean to nail the dog...the target would be the handler!!

:lol: :lol: :lol: 

Yes...I would agree to the use of protective eye wear...and maybe underwear. :twisted: 

I bet the beers after those trials would be filled with fun, fun, fun.


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## Paul Coffman

Hello and thank you for the welcome.
I agree with you also and meant to include "in America" in my post. 
I just get so tired of people that have never played in a sport but will sit at their computer and bash any sport that isn't theirs. Like I said, we went to a Mondio trial this past weekend, I had two people that as soon as they learned I trained for PSA they got on the defensive of their sport. I hadn't said a word, they asked if I did Mondio and I informed them that I did PSA but was considering mondio. They instantly told me what they didn't like about my sport. And I am thinking, "This is a great way to welcome me to your sport, bash mine". We had invited a Mondio decoy to our club training once and instead of taking the time to promote his sport and teach us something we didn't know about Mondio he told us what he didn't like about PSA and what was wrong with it. My entire club thought he was an ass. We are a P S A club, why would you do that? There just seems to be one HUGE pissing contest in America when it comes to dog sports. Go out and trial in it before you trash it would be my take.


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## Paul Coffman

Andres Martin said:


> I would be interested in playing in that sport as well.
> 
> 
> 
> Hmmmm! :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:
> How much do handlers sweat during a trial?
> Are handlers worried about ANYTHING other than points?
> In PSA or ASR, do THE DOGS think they're playing?
> 
> Just some stuff to consider... :lol: :lol: :lol:
> 
> Cheers.
Click to expand...

Have you seen the carjacking scenario in PSA? The dogs don't think they are playing by any means.

What sport would you say that the handler isn't worried about points? I mean, they ARE sports. Just curious


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: but in my opinion you won't find a better test of a dogs courage than PSA. JMO

Ever heard of a conditioned response? Decent nerves are about the only other requirement. Been in the game way to long to think that courage has anything to do with it.

If you had a dog that did that without ever having been trained for it, I might re-think the whole thing............for that dog.

I guess your probably looking at this differently than I do. Big thing is that I look at this as a test to see if the dog is worth breeding to, or showing that a dog is worth breeding to.

I have been in bad situations over the years and am not about to think that any of these sports test courage. I am not sure that it even applies to how a dog thinks or doesn't think. I have seen a lot of dogs run. I was just as shocked as everyone else.

So back to the "sport". How the heck are we supposed to see what to breed to in these sports? (asr psa) You can't always see the dog, and these sports do not test enough of the dog at all.

I guess we will see in fifteen years whether or not they prove squat about the dogs worth. For me, I just don't see enough of a test.

There are gonna be a lot of dogs with these titles in pedigrees in a few years. I just don't see how it is going to be as good as the ringsports that have been there.


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## Gregg Tawney

Jeff - 

I am very familier with conditioned responses but the difference is surprise scenarios, different decoys, and different fields. I understand that training can hide certain things in a dog but if a dog is strong enough to work through everything that they throw at them on a PSA trial field then chances are the dog is pretty darn strong. 

I am not saying that any sport is the end all to testing a dogs courage but it is a good start and can help in your search. If you can take a particular dog and train them to work through that kind of pressure on a trial field then there is a good chance that you can train them to work through pressure on the street. 

I will agree with you that just because a dog has passed a level of a certain sport that it is not gauranteed to have enough courage to work the street. But, I will take a good KNPV or PSA titled dog any day over a good green dog. 

Bottom line is this.........you are right about the fact that a true courage test is difficult to demonstrate on a trial field. IMO a true courage test takes place on the street. It is hard to recreate a real bite in a confined space with a suspect that does not want to go back to prison, is on drugs and is feeling little to no pain. Unfortunately, we cant go around setting that scenario up for all our dogs.....yet :twisted: 


Gregg


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## Gregg Tawney

Jeff - 

The other solution is to breed to the successful sport dog that has had success on the street also. 

Hey Selena, do you know of any dogs that fit this description! :wink: 

Gregg


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## Paul Coffman

I will take the lack of you answering as a NO in that you haven't trialed in the two sports you run your mouth about. That tells me alot.

Anyways, are you trying to tell me that Mondio DOES test the dogs courage and provides you with a breed test?  :lol:


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## Paul Coffman

Gregg Tawney said:


> Jeff -
> 
> I am very familier with conditioned responses but the difference is surprise scenarios, different decoys, and different fields. I understand that training can hide certain things in a dog but if a dog is strong enough to work through everything that they throw at them on a PSA trial field then chances are the dog is pretty darn strong.
> 
> I am not saying that any sport is the end all to testing a dogs courage but it is a good start and can help in your search. If you can take a particular dog and train them to work through that kind of pressure on a trial field then there is a good chance that you can train them to work through pressure on the street.
> 
> I will agree with you that just because a dog has passed a level of a certain sport that it is not gauranteed to have enough courage to work the street. But, I will take a good KNPV or PSA titled dog any day over a good green dog.
> 
> Bottom line is this.........you are right about the fact that a true courage test is difficult to demonstrate on a trial field. IMO a true courage test takes place on the street. It is hard to recreate a real bite in a confined space with a suspect that does not want to go back to prison, is on drugs and is feeling little to no pain. Unfortunately, we cant go around setting that scenario up for all our dogs.....yet :twisted:
> 
> 
> Gregg


That was a nice post. I couldn't agree with you more. I think it is based on an individual dog. Again, these guys crack me up when they discredit something they don't have the *EDIT* enough to try.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote:I will take the lack of you answering as a NO in that you haven't trialed in the two sports you run your mouth about. That tells me alot. 

It also tells me that you are new to dogsports. I have seen enough of the work in both to know that it is not complete. I have competed in Sch, and trialed in Mondio. I have trained a lot of PP dogs. Bitework is not enough of a test for me. I prefer that there are tests of inhibition, and independent thought.

Showing a mouthful of teeth doesn't impress me anymore. Sorry, that went away a long time ago.

Gregg, I agree with sport having no test for real world applications, but there are plenty of dogs that show that they will bite no matter a sleeve or an arm.

Because I do sport, I am looking at all things, not just the bitework. That seriousness for PD's is either there or it isn't. Can't get around that fact. I like to see the rest for what I do, and at a high level. I don't see it in either sport (ASR/PSA) This is not to say that the dogs are incapable of it, just that it is not tested the way I want to see it. 

So I guess I "bash it", in sensitive peoples eyes, as opposed to them seeing an opinion of how the sport could evolve, and seeing how they would make the changes. I just don't see what I do is bashing. Others obviously do.

Now Sch, I can bash all day, and with great joy!!! :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:


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## Andres Martin

> Have you seen the carjacking scenario in PSA? The dogs don't think they are playing by any means.
> 
> What sport would you say that the handler isn't worried about points? I mean, they ARE sports.


Paul, That's exactly what I'm saying. To the dogs it's not a sport. They are more than a bit "worried". And...in regular sports ...PARTICIPANTS... get worried about points. The handler, in "dog sports" did the training, and on the trial field attempted to cue the dog appropriately. That's about as much participation as the "sport" of CHESS!!!

I would love to see a dog sport where there was PHYSICAL STRESS placed ON THE HANDLER in the trial...much as it is in real life. A dog reacts way differently...if it's handler is scared as well, and specially if its handler is moving ERRATICALLY. Try it, and you'll see.

People of all ages and fitness levels can participate as handlers in any "dog sport". Kind of like CHESS. High level sports demands "participant" fitness. The only other animal sport that I can think of is Polo, and the "handler" needs to be pretty fit. Or can you think of a sport where top fitness for "the human" is not required?

It's not a hard concept to grasp.

Again, I would love to see the handlers PHYSICALLY and MENTALLY STRESSED.


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## Woody Taylor

Andres Martin said:


> Again, I would love to see the handlers PHYSICALLY and MENTALLY STRESSED.


Excellent idea. Seriously. I have never been crazy about all the sport dog trash talking by owners watching their dogs attack handlers. I'm all for it. 

Can we start another thread on this and which dog sport is better, etc.? It's a sleeve about carrying threads [I made this slip while I was typing and it's interesting enough on a few levels so I'm not gonna change it]. It's way far off topic. It's a thread about sleeves, a lot of interesting notions about other stuff is getting lost.


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## Woody Taylor

Paul Coffman said:


> [Again, these guys crack me up when they discredit something they don't have the b**ls enough to try.


Paul...welcome to the forum...and cut out the trash talk immediately. You showing up and talking trash is about as hollow as getting involved with someone you don't know about which dog SPORT is better. We don't curse here, we don't talk trash blindly, and we usually stick around long enough to figure out when someone is messing with us. Throttle it down. 

Thanks.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote:Again, these guys crack me up when they discredit something they don't have the balls enough to try.

See, I look at this insecurity you have about your sport as a major setback for interesting conversation. 

PSA is a really watered down version of Mondio, with attrocious decoy work to boot. I see people that are impressed with a dog that isn't scared of yelling and noisemaking. 

Since they do this in training, why would they be. I also see "most" of the dogs biting further down the arm, near the crook/inside elbow, which is not a huge sign of confidence on the dogs part, or bad training.

I also see no venue, as of yet for a leg dog to compete. Nor do I see this "courage test" as a safe venue for a leg dog.


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## Paul Coffman

I do know what he is talking about and I do know who he is. I am not talking trash I tend to call it like I see it.
If the word ***** offended anyone I apologize.

That's the problem with American dogsports. Everyone trashes everyone else. Rather than just saying "that's not for me" they have to belittle to make up for their venues shortcomings. It would be nice to go to shows and not have the polotics take over and everyone form their clicks. People just waiting for something bad to happen so they can run back to their keyboard and report what is wrong. No big deal, I'm done discussing with someone that doesn't know what he is talking about or even trialed in the sport. My apologies Woody.


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## Paul Coffman

Say what you want Jeff. I saw for my own eyes Mondio decoy work. Very K9 Prosportish. Weak..no pressure...and with that...many dogs didn't want to bite. But you know what...enjoy it....maybe you will get that brevet at the next trial. Good luck.


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## Woody Taylor

Paul Coffman said:


> I do know what he is talking about and I do know who he is. I am not talking trash I tend to call it like I see it.
> If the word balls offended anyone I apologize.
> 
> That's the problem with American dogsports. Everyone trashes everyone else. Rather than just saying "that's not for me" they have to belittle to make up for their venues shortcomings. It would be nice to go to shows and not have the polotics take over and everyone form their clicks. People just waiting for something bad to happen so they can run back to their keyboard and report what is wrong. No big deal, I'm done discussing with someone that doesn't know what he is talking about or even trialed in the sport. My apologies Woody.


He knows what he is talking about; there are few people here in this forum that will say that Jeff has not been around a long time and knows his dog stuff. Much more than human interaction, in any rate. But you are doing your fair share of trash talking and baiting here and I'm simply asking both of you to take it somewhere else.

No problem, no apologies to me necessary. I'm saying stay around long enough to realize that he is having a go with you--check your PMs. And again, welcome.

We need to stop using this thread around sleeve-carrying for this discussion. Please. :!:


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## Connie Sutherland

DITTO!

Open a new thread (or preferably PM each other if you just want to beat each other up; it's boring to other people). 

This is not what a reader who clicks on "carrying the sleeve" is looking for. 

AGAIN.


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## Gregg Tawney

> I prefer that there are tests of inhibition, and independent thought.
> 
> I don't see it in either sport (ASR/PSA) This is not to say that the dogs are incapable of it, just that it is not tested the way I want to see it.


Now Sch, I can bash all day, and with great joy!!! :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:[/quote]

Jeff - 

What type of tests for inhibition and independent thought do you want to see? I am not sure I understand what you are getting at here. 

As far as Sch.........that is too easy to bash! :lol:


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## Woody Taylor

http://www.workingdogforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?p=11781#11781

My business is helping yours. Let's take all non-sleeve carrying stuff about truly testing dogs to this thread...or something like it.


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## Howard Gaines III

Carrying the bite sleeve is a prey related item. If a dog is in high defense drive, carrying the sleeve with its head up will low the defensive drive and pick up the prey drive. The thrashing is defense/fight drive. My male Bouvier does the same thing. After running him in a praise circle, I hold his head up and "out" him. Kick the sleeve out to the decoy and command "Good Out." The decoy put the sleeve on and the dog gets a quick rebite.


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