# Developing Hunt Drive



## Brett Bowen (May 2, 2011)

I didn't feel like hijacking Kadi's thread with this but:



will fernandez said:


> In my neck of the woods I see people who do not develop the hunt drive and those that stifle it by too much control work...(by that I mean more of the hammering type OB)


I have a vague idea, but always been curious how do you develop hunt drive?


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Brett Bowen said:


> I didn't feel like hijacking Kadi's thread with this but:
> 
> 
> 
> I have a vague idea, but always been curious how do you develop hunt drive?


Ha ha, well I really don't know but I worked on activities with the Dutch (most of it or the first attempts at it are on video) which seemed to be fruitful in that regard and it netted me a dog that always seems to be looking for something. Now, I got two like that. Who knows if what she's doing is really "hunting" in a practical sense that could be applied to something meaningful like detection. I'm not qualified to comment on that either way.


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

with an eight to 10 week old pup I will throw a small stainless steel pipe...pup finds it picks it up...I pay with food...as time goes on reward for carrying it towards me then to me..As it gets older I will start paying with a ball or a tug....then I move on to a key stuck in the ground then to washers...repeat two or three times a day for 10 to 15 minutes..

Thats how I do it...I like the tubes because I believe they hold scent and I can wash them if I want to switch them up for human, narcotic or even explosives scent.

I use them later on for hides out and about...


Really just the Dick Staal method


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

As soon as I got Beau around 11 weeks I started throwing little PVC tubes (I know ... PVC) with holes and some teeth and bloody gauze.....Honestly that was the main game we played and I kept throwing it harder and harder places until he was breaking pretty thick brush and crossing creekds etc,

Then I would hide them and just let him loose to find them when I took him outside. His reward was to get to play with it more.

Then I started hiding cadaver and hiding toys with it did that for a month or so. And went on to shaping an indication and rewarding at source.

Pretty much anytime we go anywhere if I cut him off lead he is looking for cadaver so any recreational walks with him are on lead unless I want him to work an area just for the heck of it to get some negative (hopefully-eeek) nost time. Doesn't even need a command.

His hunt drive is very good. I think it has to be there to start with we just bring out the game.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

I think everything should be started with a game. Most dogs will play the/a game to a point. 

But to build insane hunt drive where heavy distractions come into play requires a lot more than just a game. There has to be a spark and an undying want that blocks anything else and gives the dog 'hunt' tunnel vision. That is something that even the most experienced trainer IMO is hard pressed to teach a dog. To me that is the biggest complaint I hear from my friends who do SAR professionally. The dog goes "Ooooo a butterfly" "Oooooo a dead squirrel" it knows it was supposed to search for a specific scent but the allure of the distraction is more interesting. 

Those are the biggest things why some SAR dogs get the old heave ho I can bet ya. 

You can build it to a certain point but to really have it the dog has to have some of it naturally in the first place.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

You can't put in in, you can just develop what they have.

They have to be hardwired that way. Tunnel vision is right....distractions don't matter because they are irrelvant to the hunt. You have to select for it.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Nancy Jocoy said:


> You have to select for it.


Going back to Kadi's other thread. LOL! Exactly and who is actually trying to select for it as breeders? Most breeders would rather give their pick pups to a sport guy who maybe taking that pup to the worlds than to do something as unglorious as working in a cadaver search team. LOL! Oh and I mean unglorious in a teasing way as the work all SAR teams do is way more important than any world championship title (unless you want to sell livestock) but you see where most breeders where their heads are at. I've seen it, all the pick pups end up going to high end sport homes and the rest go for SAR. Then the champions get bred and bred and it gets increasingly hard to find the dogs with the 'hunt' drive that SAR teams need from their K9s because they are just not getting selected for it.


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## Brett Bowen (May 2, 2011)

Great responses, especially on a topic that doesn't get much life around here. I've seen plenty of threads on developing prey and defense, but not so much on hunt. 

How much of hunt drive do you think is learned vs genetic? No doubt there has to be a genetic foundation. But would a dog with very little to no development pass some agencies hunt drive tests? Sure some would, but how many would fail outright, then with a little work pass just as easily?


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

When I tested my first GSD pup for SAR I looked for a natural retrieve and a desire to continue looking for what I tossed when they didn't see exactly where it lands. That desire/drive to continue is even more important then a fast find.
At 4-5 wks old there were two in the litter that fit my selection. I chose one and have never been dissapointed with him for any reason. 
If they have "it", they have It" and nothing will bring it out if they don't.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Brett Bowen said:


> How much of hunt drive do you think is learned vs genetic? No doubt there has to be a genetic foundation. But would a dog with very little to no development pass some agencies hunt drive tests?


The dog I started the thread about passed the test he was given. I can't say exactly what they tested for, I wasn't there. I was raising him for Ring, so other than testing his hunt as a pup and playing just general games of fetch with him I didn't really work to develope his hunt drives. 

I do play games with my young pups (5-8 weeks) before they go to their new homes to test and build the hunt, but since I also didn't raise the dog in question from birth, he missed that stage. I'd say he's as "untouched" in terms of hunt development as most other dogs raised in a sport home.



> Sure some would, but how many would fail outright, then with a little work pass just as easily?


I think if the dog has the basic genetics, it could fall into this category. It's actually easy to screw up how a dog will appear in a test depending on how they are raised. I know one way to do it LOL I routinely play fetch with my dogs in the yard with 1 ball and multiple dogs. And realized recently that my dogs will hunt for the ball, then look back to me, to see if someone else has already found and fetched it. If they don't see another dog near me with the ball, or they don't see me holding the ball, they will go back to looking, but it ingrains a behavior that wouldn't show well during a hunt test, that could be fixed with the right training. A similar issue could be created by doing the "fake throw" with your dog a lot, so they learn if they don't really see it thrown, searching for it is useless because you didn't actually throw it. This could really bite you in the rear during a testing scenario also.


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## Matthew Grubb (Nov 16, 2007)

Geoff Empey said:


> I think everything should be started with a game. Most dogs will play the/a game to a point.
> 
> But to build insane hunt drive where heavy distractions come into play requires a lot more than just a game. There has to be a spark and an undying want that blocks anything else and gives the dog 'hunt' tunnel vision. That is something that even the most experienced trainer IMO is hard pressed to teach a dog. To me that is the biggest complaint I hear from my friends who do SAR professionally. The dog goes "Ooooo a butterfly" "Oooooo a dead squirrel" it knows it was supposed to search for a specific scent but the allure of the distraction is more interesting.
> 
> ...


 
When I see the "Oooooooo" in a dog it eithe lacks maturity and age OR it isn't cut out for the work. I'll take over the top drive any day.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

any thoughts on how much possession plays into hunting...if any? just curious..


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Matthew Grubb said:


> When I see the "Oooooooo" in a dog it eithe lacks maturity and age OR it isn't cut out for the work. I'll take over the top drive any day.


Hi Matt nice to see you posting. 

So when you see a dog that does the "Ooooo" while hunting and distracts but it does have top drive to continue or in other ways ... When do you pull the plug and wash the dog? You state maturity and age OR it isn't cut out for the work those are 3 variables. Maturity and age sounds like an excuse, and being not cut out for the work is pretty cut and dry. Where do you make the definite answer of to 'carry on' or 'pull the plug' on a particular dog? Is it a gut feeling or something tangible?


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> any thoughts on how much possession plays into hunting...if any? just curious..



I think possession has a lot to do with it. It to me is the foundation of that drive to want it, win it, I'll do anything for it mentality that a dog needs for exceptional hunt drive. It has to want it and possession is just that.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

not sure what part of the hunt sequence u are referring to "possession wise" is, but i have had a few dogs that would hunt forever for something they want if it was hidden ... and for them the reward was only in the find ... basically a self satisfying (genetic based) behavior that could not be easily combined with a retrieve after the find was made; especially if it was a favorite toy that they were hunting for 

is that what u are referring to ? that type of dog may be harder to work with, and i think it also matters if they see the object tossed and react in prey drive first, as opposed to purely "hunting" 

i've kinda judged the degree of (genetic) hunt drive by how little the dog will come back and need to be sent out again ... if you start with a lot of fetch/retrieve actions would that cloud the issue a bit ?

- iow, maybe the lines can get crossed a bit when you do a toss/fetch vice pure hunting ??


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

rick smith said:


> not sure what part of the hunt sequence u are referring to "possession wise" is, but i have had a few dogs that would hunt forever for something they want if it was hidden ... and for them the reward was only in the find ... *basically a self satisfying (genetic based) behavior that could not be easily combined with a retrieve after the find was made; especially if it was a favorite toy that they were hunting for
> *
> is that what u are referring to ? that type of dog may be harder to work with, and i think it also matters if they see the object tossed and react in prey drive first, as opposed to purely "hunting"
> 
> ...


I would guess that depends on the methods used, how easily the retrieve (bringing it back and giving it up) is paired with it. Seems that lots of people make it look pretty easy, even with highly possessive dogs. That is what training is for, if that is a necessary thing the dog has to do. 

Is a dog hunting for HIS toy, ultimately, when a toy is used, when he is doing detection? or SAR? MY guess is that some are hunting for the toy to have it for a little bit, others are hunting for a reward interaction with the handler, others to play with someone else, or a mix of these, depending on the dog.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Joby Becker said:


> any thoughts on how much possession plays into hunting...if any? just curious..


I think they are two separate things, that may both occur in the same dog, but one is not required for the other. One of my most possessive dogs, who was a bitch from pretty much day one regarding her stuff, had to be taught a force retrieve because she wouldn't bring me stuff, etc also had some of the lowest hunt drive of the dogs I've owned. And some of my highest hunt drive dogs, the ones that won't stop looking until they find it, will happily bring me the item so I can go hide it again and are not that possessive. They are possessive in that they will keep a toy away from the other dogs, but they will bring me the toy to initiate play.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Joby Becker said:


> Is a dog hunting for HIS toy, ultimately, when a toy is used, when he is doing detection? or SAR? MY guess is that some are hunting for the toy to have it for a little bit, others are hunting for a reward interaction with the handler, others to play with someone else, or a mix of these, depending on the dog.


I think some dogs also just hunt for the sheer enjoyment of hunting. Like some dogs will chase a ball all day long, but not actually pick it up or fetch it, they just like to chase. They don't want/need the "finish" part, the actual possession of the toy, just the chase. Or a dog who tracks for the sheer joy of tracking, finding the animal, person, or object at the end really isn't their goal. I've had dogs like this, they would run a long track, and when they got to the reward at the end they would barely pause but track my path all the way back to my vehicle. And if allowed to, then go run the track a second time, or even a third.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

interesting topic for sure.

thanks for the descriptions Kadi.


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## Matthew Grubb (Nov 16, 2007)

Geoff Empey said:


> Hi Matt nice to see you posting.
> 
> So when you see a dog that does the "Ooooo" while hunting and distracts but it does have top drive to continue or in other ways ... When do you pull the plug and wash the dog? You state maturity and age OR it isn't cut out for the work those are 3 variables. Maturity and age sounds like an excuse, and being not cut out for the work is pretty cut and dry. Where do you make the definite answer of to 'carry on' or 'pull the plug' on a particular dog? Is it a gut feeling or something tangible?


In the PSD arena were seeing 99% of our candidates at around 12 months of age. Years ago they were about 2 to 2.5 years when we got them. Many of the dogs we see have a TON of hunt but lived the most sheltered lives.... kennel to training field and back....and. nothing more. These dogs tend to think everything they see is "Oooooooooo" lol. 

These high hunt "ooooooo" dogs tend to work through this issue during training but it seems to take a good while... so i throw environmental sociability into the mix. 

My opinion is that you use that high hunt drive..... develop it... build on it to help overcome the "Ooooooo" so the the environmental sociability and maturity (age) can help chip away at the level of distraction. 

As for a wash out... I have not really seen one in the PSD side because we specifically test for hunt drive during selection testing. I have seen a ton of "Pet grade" SAR "Oooooooo" dogs that were 5 and 6 years old with terrible distraction issues..... but the common trait was lack of hunt drive.


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## Matthew Grubb (Nov 16, 2007)

P.s. thanks for the welcome back... I kind of got burnt out for a while with dog stuff.


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## Craig Snyder (May 7, 2012)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> I think some dogs also just hunt for the sheer enjoyment of hunting. Like some dogs will chase a ball all day long, but not actually pick it up or fetch it, they just like to chase. They don't want/need the "finish" part, the actual possession of the toy, just the chase. Or a dog who tracks for the sheer joy of tracking, finding the animal, person, or object at the end really isn't their goal. I've had dogs like this, they would run a long track, and when they got to the reward at the end they would barely pause but track my path all the way back to my vehicle. And if allowed to, then go run the track a second time, or even a third.


This sounds a lot like mine now. My biggest problem when training her for SAR was that she had no toy drive. Yeah.. she liked toys, but wasn't obessive about them. Rewarding her for a find was always a problem and many of my team members said you'll never train her because she isn't toy-driven enough. Now I've realized that for her, the reward is the actual hunt/find and my praise. That's all she really cares about. I can take a toy and maybe play tug with her after a find and she likes that. But it's not what she lives for. It's not the toy in the end but the hunt and my interaction with her at the end.

Maybe the difference is she is a German Shorthaired pointer mix. Maybe that hunting/birding drive is different than the toy obessed GSD's, Mali, Labs, Retrievers I see all the time in SAR.

It's one of the reasons that today, I think toy obessed/driven dogs are easier to train, but in the end I think I want a dog that's in it forthe hunt, not the toy. But it can be difficult as most SAR trainers only want toy obessed dogs. I feel, like I can go out anytime with my dog and not need to worry about showing her the toy or getting her "up" for the hunt.

Not sure if that makes sense to a lot of people or not.

Craig


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## Matthew Grubb (Nov 16, 2007)

Craig Snyder said:


> This sounds a lot like mine now. My biggest problem when training her for SAR was that she had no toy drive. Yeah.. she liked toys, but wasn't obessive about them. Rewarding her for a find was always a problem and many of my team members said you'll never train her because she isn't toy-driven enough. Now I've realized that for her, the reward is the actual find and my praise. That's all she really cares about. I can take a toy and maybe play tug with her after a find and she likes that. But it's not what she lives for. It's not the toy in the end but the hunt and my interaction with her at the end.
> 
> It's one of the reasons that today, I think toy obessed/driven dogs are easier to train, but in the end I think I want a dog that's in it forthe hunt, not the toy. But it can be difficult as most SAR trainers only want toy obessed dogs. I feel, like I can go out anytime with my dog and not need to worry about showing her the toy or getting her "up" for the hunt.
> 
> ...


Makes perfect sense.... its always easier (if you are a good trainer) to shape drive than to try and build it when it is either minimal or nonexistent.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Craig Snyder said:


> It's one of the reasons that today, I think toy obessed/driven dogs are easier to train, but in the end I think I want a dog that's in it forthe hunt, not the toy. But it can be difficult as most SAR trainers only want toy obessed dogs. I feel, like I can go out anytime with my dog and not need to worry about showing her the toy or getting her "up" for the hunt.
> 
> Not sure if that makes sense to a lot of people or not.
> 
> Craig


Makes perfect sense when you consider dogs like hounds. Haven't met to many that are toy obsessed but they sure can get obsessed about following a track.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

rick smith said:


> not sure what part of the hunt sequence* u are referring to "possession wise" is,* but i have had a few dogs that would hunt forever for *something they want* if it was hidden ... and for them the reward was only in the find ... basically a self satisfying (genetic based) behavior that could not be easily combined with a retrieve after the find was made; especially if it was a favorite toy that they were hunting for
> 
> *is that what u are referring to ?* that type of dog may be harder to work with, and i think it also matters if they see the object tossed and react in prey drive first, as opposed to purely "hunting"
> 
> ...


Well the possession I am referring to is the *'want'* not so much for searching for possession of a specific "toy" or retrieve item. Dogs won't search blindly just for the sake of searching usually. Wild dogs will hunt and search because they need to eat. Pet dogs or any dog really, will sniff the flowers, other dog's arses and urine but that isn't a 'want' it is just an opportunity. 

It is not a description of possession like a resource guarder over a bowl of food, but an extreme *'want'*. 

Sure high level search dogs enjoy the hunt or search part but there has to be a means to an end and a purpose why they search. Which has to be the reward, so what is the reward? A trained dope dog doesn't really care about the bag of weed it finds and alerts on, it cares more about the tossed kong or ball. It couldn't care less about the dope as it is just a means for it to get what it wants, the reward. 

It's basic it's primal and a tool used for years by trainers since the beginning of time. Pay the employee (dog) for good work and the handler will get repeated good work. But the employee (dog) needs to be paid with something of value that it wants to have (possess).


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## Brett Bowen (May 2, 2011)

Geoff Empey said:


> It's basic it's primal and a tool used for years by trainers since the beginning of time. Pay the employee (dog) for good work and the handler will get repeated good work. But the employee (dog) needs to be paid with something of value that it wants to have (possess).


You hit the nail on the head for the reason of my question. I think everyone agrees there has to be a foundation (can't build a house on sand). But I think training plays a big role, they can have all the want in the world but if the hunt behavior never or rarely paid out the behavior would slowly be extinguished. I think the same is in reverse, maybe a dog has to be shown that it pays then the genetics can come oout. Just my inexperienced opinion though so take it for what it's worth. 8-[


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Joby Becker said:


> any thoughts on how much possession plays into hunting...if any? just curious..



The GSD I had in SAR had absolutely no possessiveness in him. To this day he will still bring me anything he picks up. No food guarding, nothing except his toy is his toy and he wont let the other GSD have it. Even so there is no aggression. Just a look. "Put it down shit head!"
He would search till he fell over if you let him.
I believe a good dog that has the correct drive/desire to hunt can be self rewarding.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

I agree. For the dog who is hunt driven they are OCD. 

Grim (now house pet) definitely had a workable level of hunt drive but he did not 'turn on" until you gave him the command and I am pretty sure he was working for the toy not out of sheer love for the hunt. But he had several finds and would go about two hours before he would switch off and that was readable. Honestly for most cadaver searches two hours was more than adequate and he would recharge after a rest (the two hours would have forced breaks in it)

Beau absolutely loves the toy and will play nonstop, but is much more intrigued by the odor, so much that he will often take the toy back to and drop the toy at the source to keep sniffing. I actually don't have to give him any search command and unless he is on lead or playing ball or tug, he is actively hunting for odor so he is been very easy to train. We are working on nose time now so I don't know how long he will work a negative area. It will be interesting. He was bred for this. The target odor is the one that is fun, the others..meh.... (I don't do odor training in my backyard where I want him to relax and hang out and do nice things like destroy trees)

Cyra was my most possessive dog. She had great prey drive and a powerful desire to hunt critters. She did not have the focus either Grim or Beau has had and could be distracted during a search (she was just nearing operational status when we discovered her hips were bad and retired her) ... Now that Cyra is gone, the chipmunks are quite at ease in my yard because they are not interesting to the boys.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Brett Bowen said:


> You hit the nail on the head for the reason of my question. I think everyone agrees there has to be a foundation (can't build a house on sand). But I think training plays a big role, they can have all the want in the world but if the hunt behavior never or rarely paid out the behavior would slowly be extinguished. I think the same is in reverse, maybe a dog has to be shown that it pays then the genetics can come oout. Just my inexperienced opinion though so take it for what it's worth. 8-[


I agree Brett that there is genetics in play here for sure. But it is also a product of the environment and how the behaviour is brought out through play and reward in training. I only speak myself of what I've seen I am no SAR or detection expert or even attempted to train anything like that. I've played a bit with both my Malinois doing searches with my kids as hides outside, or a ball in the house a couple of times, been to one field trail and attended one field labrador training session. So I am basing my opinion solely on that. 



Bob Scott said:


> I believe a good dog that has the correct drive/desire to hunt can be self rewarding.


I believe that too, not just in hunt either. That is the character of the dog. A dog like that would take dirty shots at the decoy too I bet. For me that is a training problem that needs to be rectified somehow.


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## julie allen (Dec 24, 2010)

Geoff Empey said:


> Going back to Kadi's other thread. LOL! Exactly and who is actually trying to select for it as breeders? Most breeders would rather give their pick pups to a sport guy who maybe taking that pup to the worlds than to do something as unglorious as working in a cadaver search team. LOL! Oh and I mean unglorious in a teasing way as the work all SAR teams do is way more important than any world championship title (unless you want to sell livestock) but you see where most breeders where their heads are at. I've seen it, all the pick pups end up going to high end sport homes and the rest go for SAR. Then the champions get bred and bred and it gets increasingly hard to find the dogs with the 'hunt' drive that SAR teams need from their K9s because they are just not getting selected for it.


I breed for it. Could care less if one of mine ever go to a sport home. Though capable, my goals are towards detection dogs.


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

Geoff Empey said:


> I believe that too, not just in hunt either. That is the character of the dog. A dog like that would take dirty shots at the decoy too I bet. For me that is a training problem that needs to be rectified somehow.


Maybe I understood your quote wrong...but I believe what Bob is saying is that the hunt itself is reward enough.

I believe that after a time some dogs dont need a reward to find their quarry..the hunt and find is reward enough..this to me is not a training problem but a solution formed by training...

Now on the sport field for bite work it maybe a no no but in Obedience , SAR and Police work I believe this something to strive for..


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

will fernandez said:


> Maybe I understood your quote wrong...but I believe what Bob is saying is that the hunt itself is reward enough.
> 
> I believe that after a time some dogs dont need a reward to find their quarry..the hunt and find is reward enough..this to me is not a training problem but a solution formed by training...


I agree Will, I understood Bob's quote to mean the hunt itself was self rewarding. So for me if there is no quarry at the end of the line and the dog self rewards on a track what is stopping the dog from never finding the end point and continue to hunt? I have no problem with a dog self rewarding once they have the quarry. That is primal tracking through drive at it's best. But saying the hunt itself is the reward doesn't make sense to me. Where is the end? Where is the reward? It needs an end game for the reward. 

I see this in many sport dogs I'll give you examples from French Ring with dogs that did self rewarding behaviours. 

i.e One male I know would always get esquived he'd never try if the decoy did a move on him, because on the retour d'esquive he loved the violence of the hit to the decoy's chest. That was much more rewarding for the dog. So to fix it, for weeks leading up to a important competition the training team never did esquive the dog but just did simple pivots so the would always have to take the leg. 

Another Malinois I know is hair trigger fast on stopping decoy escapes. The dog would let the decoy run so that the dog could chase down the decoy as much as it enjoyed the bite, it enjoyed the excitement of the escape and chasing the decoy down more. So the team back tied the dog on a short bungee and if the dog didn't explode to stop the decoy 'boo hoo' back to the crate. The next time out the decoy wouldn't get a inch. 

I can see the hunt being satisfying. But saying that a dog lives to hunt. That dog is a hound and is a big problem for running other game or other scents. In a detection scenario that can't be a good thing.


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

You are comparing apples (pointy eared) to oranges (floppy eared).

A lot of bloodhound SAR handlers tell me their dogs hunt (track/trail) for the sake of tracking. No reward needed. The "end" is the person. The "reward" is the tracking itself. No other reward is needed. They are taught that following the target scent is a means by which to satisfy their desire to hunt. They are not allowed to satisfy that drive on other scents in training.

It's a behavior that has been isolated from the hunting behaviors of the domestic dog's ancestors, and enhanced through selective breeding.

I've never owned a hound, so I have no direct experience with that.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

"..but I believe what Bob is saying is that the hunt itself is reward enough*. 

Bingo!* When yo see a dog that is totally worn after a day on a search you know that dog WANT'S to be doing it if you still have to dern near drag him off the search. 
Nothing to show for a search but the desire/drive/willingness to hang in there!


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Konnie and Bob, my experience mirrors what you two have said. I have one of each, one who searches for objects and the other who searches for animals. Both seem to invest considerable energy into the search/investigation process partially out of curiosity but also because they have both been conditioned to know that with enough work searching will eventually produce an end result. 

Clearly, this doesn't happen or develop by accident. By this I mean, that I am inclined to think that this behavior is a byproduct of a system of trail and error whether intentionally exploited or not. Maybe that's stating the obvious though? For certain dogs though it's almost like a certain level of "gameness" for this specific activity (understandably I am using that word in a bit of a foreign or inappropriate way to express a particular point).

It's the process of that work that appears to be gratifying to these dogs. Part of that might be due to the things I expose them to (searching often involves environmental and physical challenges - obstacles, distractions, problem solving, etc.) and it is ultimately an extension and general context of my relationship with both of them. 

Despite that, the mastiff has always been a bit different in that regard. It's almost best described as a pronounced relationship with the world around her through scent. Something new or different? Watch the dog and she will tell you. It's almost like being able to see in a different dimension or entirely new capacity through the dog.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Konnie Hein said:


> You are comparing apples (pointy eared) to oranges (floppy eared).
> 
> A lot of bloodhound SAR handlers tell me their dogs hunt (track/trail) for the sake of tracking. No reward needed. The "end" is the person. The "reward" is the tracking itself. No other reward is needed. They are taught that following the target scent is a means by which to satisfy their desire to hunt. They are not allowed to satisfy that drive on other scents in training.
> 
> ...





Bob Scott said:


> "..but I believe what Bob is saying is that the hunt itself is reward enough*.
> 
> Bingo!* When yo see a dog that is totally worn after a day on a search you know that dog WANT'S to be doing it if you still have to dern near drag him off the search.
> Nothing to show for a search but the desire/drive/willingness to hang in there!


That's fine and all, but the OP's question and query was for "Developing Hunt drive" 

We are not talking about a finished product I understood. We can all say this and that about a finished product. It's great that bloodhounds have that inate desire and that you have to drag a dog back to the car because it wants to search. 

But what about the path to get there? How and what are trainers doing to 'bring' out the hunt drive to get to that level of want in the first place? What do you do to develop it? What do you NOT do that could hinder it? You both are missing something here as for explaining something concrete in 'developing hunt drive'.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

The simple answer to what is actually done is to do a lot of whatever you want the dog to do. If it can't, you'll find out soon enough. 
I started my SAR dogs young. Made a game out of it and gradually increased distance, time, distraction and difficulty. No different then doing basic obedience in that respect.
At 12-13 wks old my GSD could find me in the woods after a 5 min hold by my son or wife. 
The only thing that needed developing in that particular dog was the time, distance, difficulty and distractions.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Geoff Empey said:


> But what about the path to get there? How and what are trainers doing to 'bring' out the hunt drive to get to that level of want in the first place? What do you do to develop it?


Geoff, I know that you directed this at Konnie and Bob but since I did mention earlier that I had a fair bit of my early stuff documented I thought I'd put up a few videos. I've posted some of them here before, so you may have seen them already. For that reason you may not be inclined to watch them but some who are following this thread might have a bit of interest in watching them. 

Is this the right way to do it? I don't really know, I'm not a trainer and so this only represents what I did. These examples might foster some good dialogue on the topic or disinterest people enough to put a cork in the thread. Hard to say sometimes. 

The example below was one of the first times that I put her on what I thought to be a good problem to work out for the pup. I haven't any idea if this would be considered ideal or easy or even typical. I was really just messing around with this stuff and see what she was willing/able to do: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LU5uCg4gfa0

Earlier stuff, just hiding the reward and allowing her to locate and retrieve it. I did a lot of this at that age: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hhNRxY-6W_A

Adding new elements, distance and intensity building a bit: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GVKecr_7qDY

More distance and some environmental obstacles paired together. In this video you can see the type of distance she's beginning to work at. My primary interest for this session was to get her accustomed searching/working at greater distances: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YUr6EL6YIZg

Fast forward a bit. She is far from finished but it's as far as I will be taking her for the moment. Toward the end of this session the intensity waned a bit. By then she had been working for about 30-45 minutes. Due to my lack of experience I wasn't certain if this meant I wasn't concentrating on the right things. Since I don't know how long dogs this age typically work in a similar setting, it could be that I pushed her further than she needed to be or I didn't build her up properly to sustain a more balanced level of intensity: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S16ULZjRc4I

I purposely did not extend these activities beyond hiding, searching, finding. On the surface the next steps appear to be simple enough to incorporate in but I desired to work with a mentor more so for myself then the dog. I didn't have one so I made the decision to stop what I was doing and not advance it any further.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Thanks for the responses.


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Nicole Stark said:


> Konnie and Bob, my experience mirrors what you two have said. I have one of each, one who searches for objects and the other who searches for animals. Both seem to invest considerable energy into the search/investigation process partially out of curiosity but also because they have both been conditioned to know that with enough work searching will eventually produce an end result.
> 
> Clearly, this doesn't happen or develop by accident.


No, it happens through selective breeding for the trait. If the dog does not have the genetics for it, then no amount of experience or training will produce the desired results (which for me is a dog that searches independently for its target with persistence, duration, energy and single-minded focus). 

And just to be clear, what I was talking about above was a dog whose reward is solely the hunt itself, not the "quarry" at the end. In fact, there does not have to be anything at the end for the hunt to be rewarding to that type of dog. The opposite is a dog who is not motivated by the hunt itself, but by the object/game/animal he finds at the end, and using his nose is the means by which to find it. Most of the dogs I work (usually Mals or Labs) are motivated by both, but not in equal balance.


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Geoff Empey said:


> But what about the path to get there? How and what are trainers doing to 'bring' out the hunt drive to get to that level of want in the first place? What do you do to develop it? What do you NOT do that could hinder it? You both are missing something here as for explaining something concrete in 'developing hunt drive'.


I was just addressing your above questions regarding a dog who is solely motivated for the hunting itself. I did not realize I was obligated to answer the OPs question as well. I'll give it a shot...

If we're talking about dogs who are motivated for hunting due to the quarry/reward at the end, then you start by getting the pup excited about interacting with the reward. That can be tugging on a tug or ball on a rope, or a game of retrieve with the toy. Once they are crazy about that (for some dogs that happens more quickly than others), you set up situations where they can easily find it by using their noses. Sometimes it's best to toss the toy a short distance into tall grass, sometimes you can skip that step and have a helper hide it for you after they show it to the dog. Then you just increase the duration, distance, difficulty, etc as per the dog's abilities. You can do things to frustrate the dog to increase intensity, but a dog with the right genetics doesn't need that, and most of the time that frustration is done by people just for "show" to make a sale (and then the "end user" has to deal with the side effects of that later).

Mistakes people make:
-Talking to their dogs to encourage them to hunt. Bad idea if you want an independent hunter because they will come to rely on your encouragement. If they are having trouble, you're better off putting the dog away, setting up an easier search problem, and then trying again.
-Making the search problems too hard for the pup's abilities, so the pup ends up quitting.
-Not paying attention to the wind direction when working with a young pup.

Really though, if you look at the video of Geoff's dog Phin, you'll see that it's genetic and there's really no special formula for developing it. The dog wants to find the thrown object, and his genetics are telling him to use his nose and not to quit until he finds it. Sure, if you just took that toy and hid it in a room, he'd probably not understand what you're asking. However, if you show him that somebody is hiding the toy in a room, and let him look for it, it won't take many reps before he's doing blind searches of the room for the toy.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Geoff Empey said:


> Thanks for the responses.


Ditto on that. Thanks again to those who sent me PMs or emails on the videos I posted.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Konnie Hein said:


> No, it happens through selective breeding for the trait. If the dog does not have the genetics for it, then no amount of experience or training will produce the desired results (which for me is a dog that searches independently for its target with persistence, duration, energy and single-minded focus).
> 
> And just to be clear, what I was talking about above was a dog whose reward is solely the hunt itself, not the "quarry" at the end. In fact, there does not have to be anything at the end for the hunt to be rewarding to that type of dog. The opposite is a dog who is not motivated by the hunt itself, but by the object/game/animal he finds at the end, and using his nose is the means by which to find it. Most of the dogs I work (usually Mals or Labs) are motivated by both, but not in equal balance.


Hey Konnie, I understood what you meant. I was more trying to address the fact that the ability doesn't go anywhere or get recognized when nothing at all is done. I certainly didn't mean to imply it wouldn't be there if it was to begin with. It's a given that if you want a dog genetically geared to express certain traits that you select and breed for those qualities. Yet, clearly even when that is not the desired goal it can show up in a dog who wasn't bred for that specific trait, such as my mastiff.

The other aspects that you were speaking of I have seen first hand. I may not be a trainer and despite being new to working dogs, this ability/trait is something I am very familiar with. Nevertheless, I appreciate you taking the time to put a sharper point on the particulars of that aspect of the discussion.


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Nicole Stark said:


> Yet, clearly even when that is not the desired goal it can show up in a dog who wasn't bred for that specific trait, such as my mastiff.
> .


And, I know you know this Nicole, but in case somebody doesn't, the desire to obsess, hunt for, and chase animals is not the same as (or indicative of) the trait of hunting for a toy. A dog who hunts obsessively for wildlife will not necessarily do the same for a toy or associated non-animal target odor.

Fun videos, Nicole. Looks like your dog enjoys it.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Konnie Hein said:


> And, I know you know this Nicole, but in case somebody doesn't, the desire to obsess, hunt for, and chase animals is not the same as (or indicative of) the trait of hunting for a toy. A dog who hunts obsessively for wildlife will not necessarily do the same for a toy or associated non-animal target odor.
> 
> Fun videos, Nicole. Looks like your dog enjoys it.


Thank you Konnie, Wasabi does seem to enjoy the messing about I do with her. 

What is a bit muddled with Willow is despite me seeing the greatest demonstration of her "hunt" directed at wildlife, it's not all that she hunts for. It seems that she will do this with just about anything and this was evident early on, nearly like every picture her breeder sent me she was off wandering about alone, nose to the ground, or gazing off in the distance looking at or for something else.

In her case it doesn't seem to matter what it is, she follows tracks just to follow them and this includes vehicle tracks. The first time I realized this was when a track layer misunderstood my instruction and doubled back only to met us on the track, she merely acknowledged the person and continued on following the track. 

Put her on a trail with ATVs all you need to do is follow the dog to know if someone has passed through recently, if they have she will follow that track if they haven't she will follow the maze of trails to get to her standard destination. She also took very easily to locating hidden objects despite having the classic non interest in object based rewards that hound type dogs are known for. 

Her investigating is interesting and I have learned a lot through the things she is naturally inclined to do. Like I said, it's almost like being able to see the world in an entirely new way.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Nicole Stark said:


> Hey Konnie, I understood what you meant. I was more trying to address the fact that the ability doesn't go anywhere or get recognized when nothing at all is done. I certainly didn't mean to imply it wouldn't be there if it was to begin with. It's a given that if you want a dog genetically geared to express certain traits that you select and breed for those qualities. Yet, clearly even when that is not the desired goal it can show up in a dog who wasn't bred for that specific trait, such as my mastiff.
> 
> The other aspects that you were speaking of I have seen first hand. I may not be a trainer and despite being new to working dogs, this ability/trait is something I am very familiar with. Nevertheless, I appreciate you taking the time to put a sharper point on the particulars of that aspect of the discussion.


Yeah me too, it is always great to have input of someone with the experience of Konnie posting as you know it is experience talking and you can't go wrong with her advice. Unfortunately I didn't understand Konnie's and Bob's original post re: Hunt Drive that is self rewarding. Since I had the mindset of 'building hunt drive' their posts confused me. 

As a kid and teenager I worked with field trial beagles for probably 6-7 seasons as my aunt and uncle were field trial judges. The description of the dog that the only reward needed was a trail to search is a rough ride with beagles. Those were the dogs at the end of the day you couldn't get back to the truck. Usually ended up building the hunt drive of the handlers trying to catch the wayward hound. LOL!

As once darkness fell the chances that you could lose the dog forever. Either by it getting injured, dispatched by a predator, getting into it with porcupines and skunks or just being lost and starving to death. 

You see with Hares and Rabbits they run a pattern in a specific home range area and it is always the same route. So the beagles are on the rabbit, as a judge you can sit and wait usually within 10 minutes or so. You will hear the hounds then if you are placed correctly see the rabbit come by hell bent for leather and then a minute or 2 after the pack of hounds. The beagles in the front are the ones actually trailing the quarry, the rest are followers that's how they judge the dogs. But the ones at the end of the day where they don't care about being in the pack and you don't have the control on that continue to self reward on the track or different tracks, are real pain in the behind. Now they have GPS and radio tracking collars but back when I was involved with my aunt and uncle Moby Dick was still a sardine and Dinosaurs roamed the earth. So no such luxury as that! I got pretty good at tackling fast moving self rewarding beagles in dense underbrush.


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Nicole - what breed is Willow?


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Geoff Empey said:


> I got pretty good at tackling fast moving self rewarding beagles in dense underbrush.


That's funny. I just finished putting together a video of my mastiff. I won't bother posting it here because it would be of very little interest to the majority of members on this forum but one of the clips in the video is of just that. You see her and the dutch running toward the ATV and then it cuts to me zooming in on something in a tree. It was large enough for me to think it was a small bear. 

I really don't know what I was thinking but I left the video camera on and took the hill up to where the dogs and this animal was. I cut off that part of the travel in the video but what surfaces at the top of the hill? Willow with about 40 quills in her muzzle. I left it running for a bit longer and then turned it off to get the quills out.

Konnie - I will shoot you a PM.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Konnie Hein said:


> And just to be clear, what I was talking about above was a dog whose reward is solely the hunt itself, not the "quarry" at the end. In fact, there does not have to be anything at the end for the hunt to be rewarding to that type of dog. The opposite is a dog who is not motivated by the hunt itself, but by the object/game/animal he finds at the end, and using his nose is the means by which to find it. Most of the dogs I work (usually Mals or Labs) are motivated by both, but not in equal balance.


I look for this same thing for an IPO dog. The outstanding dogs that really track well seem to love to track simply for the satisfaction of tracking. But that type of dog must also love to search. The dogs that love the track and do not have a high desire to search will have problems with the articles. 

I don't think that it's a coincidence that we both seem drawn to the same bloodlines.


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