# Underjaw and biting confidence



## Ataro Muse (Dec 20, 2012)

I had a conversation a few days ago which revolved around breeding, and the discussion led to head structure and that a strong underjaw was preferred not only for functional reasons but because it has a psychological impact on the dog. 

I don't contest this strong underjaw in any way as being a bad thing when it comes to a preferred structure for bite work, but the point made about the likelihood of biting confidence being higher for dogs with a strong underjaw than dogs with less, made me wonder. Supposedly a dog with a harder bite and a mouth which enables it to have a better grip will be more confident in biting than a dog which doesn't, because for the dog with the physical advantage, the job of biting is made "easier" and thus less stressful. I'm not talking about extremes here, of course... but in an argument where both dogs being compared are capable of biting, hanging onto a sleeve/suit etc. 

Has anyone heard about this theory before? Any truth to it?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

not sure what you are talking about exactly. so cant really comment.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

ok think I got it...

I think it is plausible for sake of ponderment, but has little actual value.

I took about 20 some odd hidden sleeve bites at an event filled with all kinds of dogs, pitbulls, AB's, Rottweilers, GSD, etc. etc...

and the dog that bit the fullest, strongest, and most confident (that day, at that event) was a 60 lb dutchie female, even though most of the other dogs had an advantage in phyiscal jaw/head structure in regards to heavier bone and more muscle.

obviously an equally motivated dog, with same confidence, with a larger stronger structure would be more powerful..but that day, she was the most motivated and confident to use her mouth.

without the desire, structure means little.


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## Ataro Muse (Dec 20, 2012)

Yeah, I see it pretty much the same way you do. 

Of course this is not going across different breeds and comparing them or talking about bite strength in itself, but whether an increase of bite strength gives confidence to the dog. Oh and I was talking to working people, not breeders.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Ataro Muse said:


> Yeah, I see it pretty much the same way you do.
> 
> Of course this is not going across different breeds and comparing them or talking about bite strength in itself, but whether an increase of bite strength gives confidence to the dog. Oh and I was talking to working people, not breeders.


I think it is the other way around, confidence gives the bite more strength...but can see the other point, like I said, interesting to think about for a second or two, but not provable or valuable theory in my mind at least.


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## Ataro Muse (Dec 20, 2012)

Joby Becker said:


> I think it is the other way around, confidence gives the bite more strength...


I think I didn't explain it very clearly - it's not about bite strength, but the act of biting. 

So, let's say two dogs with otherwise equal temperament (not hard as fk dogs, just a couple of average dogs) and what have you, are set to do a courage test... the theory is that due to the physiological advantage Dog A has over Dog B, Dog A will end up performing with more confidence.


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## Tamara McIntosh (Jul 14, 2009)

Ataro Muse said:


> I think I didn't explain it very clearly - it's not about bite strength, but the act of biting.
> 
> So, let's say two dogs with otherwise equal temperament (not hard as fk dogs, just a couple of average dogs) and what have you, are set to do a courage test... the theory is that due to the physiological advantage Dog A has over Dog B, Dog A will end up performing with more confidence.


Crock of shyte. I have seen a ton of malinois lacking under jaw that are biting machines. 

I don't think dogs sit around worrying if they lack under jaw. They do what they do without to bs analyzing.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Ataro Muse said:


> I think I didn't explain it very clearly - it's not about bite strength, but the act of biting.
> 
> So, let's say two dogs with otherwise equal temperament (not hard as fk dogs, just a couple of average dogs) and what have you, are set to do a courage test... the theory is that due to the physiological advantage Dog A has over Dog B, Dog A will end up performing with more confidence.


yes your explanations have not been very clear, since you said a dog with a harder bite and better grip...



> Supposedly a dog with a harder bite and a mouth which enables it to have a better grip will be more confident in biting than a dog which doesn't, because for the dog with the physical advantage, the job of biting is made "easier" and thus less stressful


first it was a more confident bite being discussed, and the ability to hang on to a bite, now a more confident courage test (not stating what kind of courage test either, not that it matters anyhow) and "the act of biting"....whatever that is...(is it the intial bite?)

that is quite a many variables.

All I can say is that I have easily taken 20,000 bites from many 100's of dogs, probably more, and there are tons or reasons why one dog would be more confident in any of those areas, than another dog, and I have never noticed or even thought the jaw structure had any real influence to a dogs confidence, unless the jaw was faulty or unhealthy, which would certainly have an influence on the bite and his confidence. 

it is the dogs mind, inborn and a sum of his training and experiences that makes the difference, when it comes to confidence, in my opinion, not his jaw being larger, longer, denser, stronger or whatever you mean.. 

that being said, all things being equal (if that can even be quantified, which I doubt) a bigger stronger jaw should be able to bite harder due to structure, but in the end it is what is in the dog head and what happens, there are many factors that can shake a dogs confidence, and a dogs character is going to be far more influential than his lower jaw size, length, or density, or whatever you are trying to get accross in this conversation.


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

It has no bearing on the dogs at all. its a human concept at best. Neither dog knows the bite strength of the other so they do not know they are the better biter or more confident biter to begin with.

The dog does not go around thinking "Whoaaaa I have a better jaw for the bite, therefor my bite is better, lets show them I have more confidence!" 

Whoever came up with the thought is an outright idiot.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

Ataro, you started out by mentioning a "conversation", and ended the post by referring to it as a "theory" ??
so maybe the theory only existed in your conversation ... but to answer your question .... no i never heard such a theory 

anyhow here's a bit more factual data ... for anyone interested in bite force :

1. not scientifically conclusive, but more objective than this thread has provided :
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog...-force-myths-misinterpretations-and-realities

2. some other recorded measurements taken from a fairly interesting vid (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y-9UNEDbXAc) :
malinois - force bite 195 pounds
Dutch Shepherd - force bite 224 pounds
American Pitbull - force bite 235 pounds
German Shepherd - force bite 238 pounds
American Bull dog - force bite 305 pounds
African Wild dog - force bite 317 pounds
Rottweiler - force bite 328 pounds
Wolf - force bite 406 pounds
Mastiffs - force bite 556 pounds
Kangal (Turkish dog) force bite 743 pounds
Hyena - force bite 1000 pounds

3. from a PubMed abstract :
"A force transducer was developed to measure bite force in dogs. A total of 101 readings was obtained from 22 pet dogs ranging in size from 7 to 55 kg. Bite forces ranged from 13 to 1394 Newtons with a mean for all dogs of 256 Newtons and a median of 163 Newtons. Most measurements fell within the low end of the range, with 55% of the biting episodes less than 200 Newtons and 77% less than 400 Newtons."
...only thing conclusive here is that it "varies" a lot 

what is probably the MOST relevant is the classic alligator/crocodile bite force statistics
.... FACT : a mother can "bite" and pick up her babies without doing any damage

obviously intent must be factored in to the physical structure potential, whether you want to call it confidence, fight drive, fear, or whatever 

i know you didn't refer specifically to "dog against dog", but still agree with Alice ... much more dependent on what the dog feels towards what or who it is biting, and probably not at all relevant to what a dog may be feeling about another dog or person

btw, are pics of a strong underjaw available somewhere ???


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## Ataro Muse (Dec 20, 2012)

I don't think the point was gotten correctly...

I'll try again:

Dog A is not thinking about being better or about Dog B etc. Just that the more "effective" biter, let's say, has more confidence than the one whose bite is not so effective, assuming all other things equal. As a result of the bite being less stressful, the dog hypothetically will would be more confident in biting than one whose bite is not as good. 

An human analogy would perhaps be someone really large who had a go at sumo wrestling, and someone not that big... the larger person, being more "suited" for the task would hypothetically feel more confident than the not so big person. 

Anyhow, I just wanted to know if anyone on here had heard of this "theory" before, because I sure as hell hadn't.


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Ataro Muse said:


> I don't think the point was gotten correctly...
> 
> I'll try again:
> 
> ...


I understand what you mean exactly but the thing is it will still never have any bearing on the dogs ability to bite, how hard it bites or how much stronger a bite is...it has no bearing on a bite at all. The forgone conclusion is that the dog has a better bite because of the larger underjaw but the dog does not know this does he? It is a non issue for the dog, it just bites.... No matter how you spin the idea around in your mind and no matter how many examples you come up with the whole idea is crooked and human thought based.


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

I have long fingers. Someone once pointed out to me that I had great hands for playing the piano. Problem is, I have zero musical aptitude. So despite my physical advantage over someone with short, stubby fingers, if they have the desire and ability to play piano, they will make beautiful music, and I will struggle to plunk out chopsticks.

So I think with dogs. The dog does not know if he has a physical advantage or not compared to another dog, he only knows what he feels inside his own skin. He is working with the tools he's got, physically and mentally and how the handler develops that is what will make the difference in his confidence in biting.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

I get what he Aturo is saying..the dogs has an easier time supposedly biting, due to his more advanantageous jaw structure and therefore is less stressed..not that the dog is conscious of this.

this could very well be true I suppose if one dogs jaw is so weak or so small it could not bite what it was trying to bite without difficulty..like say a freakishly tiny 30 lb malinois attempting to bite a large hard barrel sleeve with no bite bar, or a super hard thick surface that it could not bite , compared to a 95 lb malinois that can crush that sleeve, or bite that surface easily.

that is about the ONLY way I see this "theory" playing out...


arturo...were these perhaps Dobermann people discussing this?


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## Ataro Muse (Dec 20, 2012)

Joby Becker said:


> arturo...were these perhaps Dobermann people discussing this?


Nope, GSD people...


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

I think it's the dogs disposition,obviously a dog with more mechanical advantage can bite harder, doesn't mean it will.
I also think the under jaw question is irrelevant because as stated above,what does the dog have to compare it too.
I know small people who are hard as nails, and can get the better of people twice their size, it's all in their heads, the same for animals.


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## andreas broqvist (Jun 2, 2009)

Often drogs like resistans and "hardwork" when it comes to bitework. So if we look at all the tings we do in traning to make the dog bite harder and fight harder we chalange them. Pull them back to get them to start faster, push against them to make them push more to you, pull back to make them go the other Way and so on.
A Easy bite is à boring bite and do not build confidens.


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