# Looks vs Drives



## Howard Gaines III

Lots of folks want a dog they can count on, but some put more value in the looks vs the drives. This then plays to the adjusted breeds, where the tail and ears are cut. Some think in doing so, you have created a tougher "looking" dog and then that translates into drive success. Ya'lls spin on this topic...


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## Carol Boche

I want a dog that works.....looks are a bonus in my book. I don't have the mentality to alter a dog to make it "look" tougher or more badass.....

I like the fluffy looking dogs that come out and are just tough.....love the look on peoples faces when they see the dog, have the mentality that the dog is going to be a dud and then they get a nice surprise....LOL


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## will fernandez

I dont care what the dog looks like and would not care what the breed was as long as it fell into the type of dog that I prefer.


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## Chris Michalek

I like to take a knife and create scars all over his head and body so he looks extra tough when I walk on the darkside of town looking for trouble. Don't forget the studded collar and foot bracelets. 

I'm thinking about screwing some ram horns on the head of my rott. And maybe a unicorn's horn on my Mal or better yet, I'll make the unicorn horn a little off center so it's more like a narwhal that way nobody will know what the horn is all about until it's too late. Everybody knows that nobody knows what a Narwhal is.


Seriously, this is a dumb thread.


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## Bob Scott

It's not a first choice thing but I have no problems with a good looking working dog. 
One of my Border Terriers was Best of Winners at the all terrier AKC nationals, group winner, group placement, Best Colored Dog Champion at working terrier shows and one fine little hunting dog.
BTW, the Border standards say that "Honorably accquired working scars will not be held against the dog".


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## Carol Boche

Chris Michalek said:


> I like to take a knife and create scars all over his head and body so he looks extra tough when I walk on the darkside of town looking for trouble. Don't forget the studded collar and foot bracelets.
> 
> I'm thinking about screwing some ram horns on the head of my rott. And maybe a unicorn's horn on my Mal or better yet, I'll make the unicorn horn a little off center so it's more like a narwhal that way nobody will know what the horn is all about until it's too late. Everybody knows that nobody knows what a Narwhal is.
> 
> 
> Seriously, this is a dumb thread.


Awww come on.....LOL 

(I assume you will sharpen the horns so that they won't even be felt when they pierce the helper? or are you the dull, massive pain kinda guy? LMAO)


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## David Frost

Carol Boche said:


> I want a dog that works.....looks are a bonus in my book. I don't have the mentality to alter a dog to make it "look" tougher or more badass.....


Amen. 

DFrost


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## Nicole Stark

I favor a natural looking dog (no alterations) but you better believe functional balance is important to me. I assume that really goes without saying here particularly in context of this discussion. That functional balance often lends itself to a beautiful, harmonious dog in appearance.


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## Harry Keely

Drives by far should be number one, everything else should take a back seat ( gender, looks, etc... ). Not saying that the others shouldn't play a role in purchasing your animal but should defently not be top of the agenda if your looking for a working dog.


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## Rigel Lancero

_Looks vs drives._

Showline people breed for looks.

Working enthusiasts breed for drives.


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## Nicole Stark

Rigel Lancero said:


> _Looks vs drives._
> 
> Showline people breed for looks.
> 
> Working enthusiasts breed for drives.


Is that what this thread is about? Looks vs drives? On this forum? If it was, then it certainly was not my intention to respond to such a question.


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## James Downey

I do care what the dog looks like. But I do not care if the dog is "good looking" for vanity. I do want the dog to have a conformation that lends itself to the work. Things like a big head, broad shoulders an ass like a quarter horse are things that I look for in a breeding prospect. But overall the temperment is first and cannot be sacrificed. But all that is useless on a dog that has body that is ill suited for the work.


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## Howard Gaines III

James Downey said:


> an ass like a quarter horse are things that I look for in a breeding prospect. But overall the temperment is first and cannot be sacrificed..


 HEHEHE... trips to the beach I see!!! LOL


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## James Downey

Howard Gaines III said:


> HEHEHE... trips to the beach I see!!! LOL


It's all we got in Detroit!!!!


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## Howard Gaines III

LOL, James let me get you over this way and Ocean City, Maryland...knock the eyes out of a blind man! :-o


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## Mike Lauer

if you want him to look tough just cock his hat to the side put on his tight tshirt and train him to heal with strut in his step


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## charles Turner

Rigel Lancero said:


> _Looks vs drives._
> 
> Showline people breed for looks.
> 
> Working enthusiasts breed for drives.


it can be candy striped with its nose blinking as long it works.


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## Cate Helfgott

Meh -- did the looks before drive thing before I knew any better...wont be making that mistake again 

I think given the choice between two prospects and one was ugly and a good worker and the other pretty and bad...I'd go with the ugly dog...learned that lesson.

Now -- with that being said...if I have a working prospect puppy (kind of like the Bouv-Mal mutt thing sitting in the crate nearby) I dont think it's going to make a difference whether or not the pup has cosmetic work on it or not...the pup's gonna be what it's gonna be...the cosmetic stuff is just a matter of personal preference (and money).

~Cate


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## Mike Scheiber

I've personally never meet anyone that the looks of the dog made any difference other that the folks that want there dogs to remain with in the standard for breeding purposes.
I'm a Schutzhund guy dos this sort of mentality prevalent in the ppd crew I suppose looks should be a detouring factor for a watch dog
But come to think of it Snowzers or Boovs don't come to mind if you just considering the looks of being menacing, to me they look sort of fu-fu or pussyish


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## Don Turnipseed

Interesting question. I got the drive but the looks or conformation is just as important to me. What good is all the drive if they are not put together well enough to put a lot of pressure on fast game. Dogs have different purposes. Hounds the their game into the ground or up a tree. These dogs hunt for the catch and they have to be built right to do it or I may as well be trying to run down bears with a weiney dog. The looks I like for is a long way from what the standard calls for.....but show are bred to walk pretty. Here is a picture of BlackJack at 8 mo. He would look attrocious in the ring but he is beautiful when he is running. Most running dogs look like crap walking and the show dogs look like crap running because they are built for different agendas. Bob may have a stroke when he see's Jack........and I can leave him in the house unsupervised. LOL Protection is a bit different I suspect. Don't know how much is dependant an the conformation.


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## Chris Michalek

I think nothing beats the look of a well bred rottie with the proper drives.


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## todd pavlus

I don't think I've ever seen an ugly working dog. Could someone please post a pic of one:-k


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## Edward Egan

My dog is too handsome to have any drive!


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## jack van strien

Looks are already pretty well divined when you choose a certain breed,imo most people pick a breed by their looks and when they get into training they realize it is all about the inside.
Give me a dog with courage imo drive is much overrated.


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## Chris Michalek

todd pavlus said:


> I don't think I've ever seen an ugly working dog. Could someone please post a pic of one:-k



I think Mals are not great looking dogs. I love my mali and he makes me smile when I see him work, but my rottie makes me smile when I look at him doing nothing.


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## James Downey

Don Turnipseed said:


> Interesting question. I got the drive but the looks or conformation is just as important to me. What good is all the drive if they are not put together well enough to put a lot of pressure on fast game. Dogs have different purposes. Hounds the their game into the ground or up a tree. These dogs hunt for the catch and they have to be built right to do it or I may as well be trying to run down bears with a weiney dog. The looks I like for is a long way from what the standard calls for.....but show are bred to walk pretty. Here is a picture of BlackJack at 8 mo. He would look attrocious in the ring but he is beautiful when he is running. Most running dogs look like crap walking and the show dogs look like crap running because they are built for different agendas. Bob may have a stroke when he see's Jack........and I can leave him in the house unsupervised. LOL Protection is a bit different I suspect. Don't know how much is dependant an the conformation.


 
I think the conformation in a protection dog is important. The size of the dog, the head structure....and if the dog has orthopedic problems such as in the back. The dog will not last long. Thier is a lot of impact in biting. Also, Speed is important and the way a dog is built affects this. I get what people are saying when they say as long as the dog works, They do not care how the dog looks. I am going to assume this is in terms of vanity. But In the terms of function the body must be able lend itself to the work.

A good example of this is the Famous Malinois Lupus, I have noticed some of the dogs that have him in the pedigree have bad backs and get retired early...not all, but enough to make it a concern. This has made me cautious when looking at a dog with Lupus in the ped. Now you may not be able to tell this from how the dog looks but it is part of the conformation.


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## Jim Nash

When I was a trainer in our K9 unit we would get usually over 12 new K9 candidates a year for the yearly patrol dog class . 

Work was the only goal so looks didn't matter when our vendor went to Europe looking for dogs . As one of the trainers , I liked seeing ugly dogs in the new candidate group because from my past experiances they tended to be the better dogs . For the most part I believe looks play a part to different degrees , even with the folks heavy into the working characteristics in a dog . 

I always felt these ugly dogs were just TOO ugly even for the Europeans who place work over looks , to have that dog as a working partner or obviously as a breeding prospect . I will admit it's a belief based on the limited knowledge I have about what's going on over seas .

For me though , it was the uglier the better just as long as their work was pretty .


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## Wayne Dodge

I have no idea what you people are all going on about, if a dog does not look the part obviously he can not be the part. What kind of bad guy would be scared of a ugly dog, he must meet the breed standards in order for the bad guy to know that he is dealing with a well bred dog, a dog bred for generations to be a protector. All you have to do is look at the shepherds in any AKC ring to know for sure what a true man eater looks like, don’t think the bad guys aren’t watching those shows also.


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## andreas broqvist

yes and the show type gsd is how they shuld look. just ask the judges, then they must have what it takes to do gsd work


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## leslie cassian

To many people, my mal looks like a skinny german shepherd mix... they have no idea what he is or what kind of work the breed is capable of. And then there's the Dutch Shepherd. Weird looking stripey dog with big pointy ears. 

I have to admit, it was about looks when I chose a DS. I wanted a brindle dog. But I also wanted a dog that could work, and so I chose that breed.

I don't care if my dog is good looking by show standards, but I do want a dog that looks like the breed it is and one that is structurally sound. I like the look of a natural dog - not cropped or docked, so I choose breeds that come out looking that way, but that is just my personal preference. 

As far as a PPD - I think looking the part is part of the package. A large, dark, pointy eared dog is a much bigger visual deterrent than a floppy eared dog. I'm thinking black GSD vs black Lab - same basic dog shape, except for the ears, but people will cross the street to avoid the GSD. Rottie's seem to be the exception to this, so perhaps it is in the way the dog carries himself that makes the difference. I do think that the ability and drive to do the work is more important than looks, but having both would be ideal.


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## Geoff Empey

Chris Michalek said:


> I'm thinking about screwing some ram horns on the head of my rott. And maybe a unicorn's horn on my Mal or better yet, I'll make the unicorn horn a little off center so it's more like a narwhal that way nobody will know what the horn is all about until it's too late. Everybody knows that nobody knows what a Narwhal is.


If you play with the bull or Narwhal for that matter be prepared to get the horn!


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## susan tuck

"It is the pervading law of all things organic and inorganic,
Of all things physical and metaphysical,
Of all things human and all things super-human,
Of all true manifestations of the head,
Of the heart, of the soul,
That the life is recognizable in its expression,
*That form ever follows function.* 
This is the law."

(Louis Sullivan, American architect)

Simply stated: Pretty is as pretty does.


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## ann schnerre

susan tuck said:


> Simply stated: Pretty is as pretty does.


one of my basic life philosophies-it applies to not only dogs, but humans as well.


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## Howard Gaines III

ann schnerre said:


> one of my basic life philosophies-it applies to not only dogs, but humans as well.


HAHAHA...Geoff looks like you are stuck in the cold! :mrgreen:


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## Chris Michalek

ann schnerre said:


> one of my basic life philosophies-it applies to not only dogs, but humans as well.



Yeah well Pretty doesn't work in my house. In fact, she doesn't cook, doesn't clean, doesn't do laundry...but she sure is cute.:wink:


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## patrick ganley

My dogs mother is missing an ear and a front leg. But that bitch has more heart than most of the dogs she competes against and that's what sold me on her. Looks are exterior, it's what's on the inside that counts. If the dogs purple and pink and got a mohawk like Mr.T but can work i'm all for it !! LOL


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## David Frost

patrick ganley said:


> My dogs mother is missing an ear and a front leg. But that bitch has more heart than most of the dogs she competes against


We had a three-legged drug dog, I called Tripod. We had his right rear leg removed due to cancer. He returned to work and worked another 3 years after surgery. I often said; Surgery, $3,500 dollars. The look on a scrotes face when busted by a 3-legged dog ---- priceless.

DFrost


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## Geoff Empey

Howard Gaines III said:


> HAHAHA...Geoff looks like you are stuck in the cold! :mrgreen:


That I am, comes with the territory living in the great white north my friend. Though we are hit with a warm front right now it is 7C above normal all the outdoor rinks, canals and igloos where we live are starting to melt. We may have to move back into the tent if it keeps going like this. 

Does anyone know how to whelp pups in a 2 man dome tent? I know Don T has done it, he did it while smoking a cigar and taking swigs from 666oz of Jack Daniels that he used as disinfectant. I read it somewhere on the net. I swear it 's true!


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## Don Turnipseed

Geoff Empey said:


> That I am, comes with the territory living in the great white north my friend. Though we are hit with a warm front right now it is 7C above normal all the outdoor rinks, canals and igloos where we live are starting to melt. We may have to move back into the tent if it keeps going like this.
> 
> Does anyone know how to whelp pups in a 2 man dome tent? I know Don T has done it, he did it while smoking a cigar and taking swigs from 666oz of Jack Daniels that he used as disinfectant. I read it somewhere on the net. I swear it 's true!


You can't believe everything you see on the net Geoff. While I do have a 16 oz glass of Jack sitting here next to my keyboard, I consider cigars pretty nasty and opted for a mouthful of Red Man and a spit cup. Takes a little getting used to because the more Jack you get in you, the easier it is to forget which one is for spittin and which one is for drinkin. Guaranteed, you will only get them mixed up one time.


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## Daryl Ehret

The only dog I had that I thought was ugly, turned out couldn't perform either, and had little connection with the handler. So that was an easy choice to send back to the breeder. Guess it's all subjective anyway, because I've been told the appearance of my dogs make some people wanna puke, and the same dogs to other people are very appealing appearance-wise. I just know _what I like!_


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## patrick ganley

David Frost said:


> We had a three-legged drug dog, I called Tripod. We had his right rear leg removed due to cancer. He returned to work and worked another 3 years after surgery. I often said; Surgery, $3,500 dollars. The look on a scrotes face when busted by a 3-legged dog ---- priceless.
> 
> DFrost


 Hey David we don't need looks or limbs right ? Just that they get the job done !! Them things are over rated anyhow. LMAO
Pat and Chino


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## Howard Gaines III

Cut the tails adjust the ears and come to Delaware...I'll give them a place to stay. YOU, sorry you're on your own!!!


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## James Downey

patrick ganley said:


> Hey David we don't need looks or limbs right ? Just that they get the job done !! Them things are over rated anyhow. LMAO
> Pat and Chino


 
You know the team that wins the wheel chair basketball championships gets the job done also...but you know what's better than being wheel chair basketball champion....Not being paralyzed.


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## Jhun Brioso

I GO for drives...


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## Amanda Caldron

I have heard of this so many times from clients. They want a scarey looking dog.... the ears cropped and tail docked a darker dog with huge head and muscles. lol. I personally believe there are some absolutely beautiful rotts, dobes, and bull breeds. I am more a fan to what they have to offer my eyes! But because of being so disappointed when owning different breeds and watching them work I decided to get something a little harder on my eyes to gain on the working aspect. I am a firm believer in drives, function (work), health, and nerves and then look. I will say it has gotten me some beautiful dogs and some really ugly dogs.  I believe though that 90% of dutch shepherds and mals are ugly! Until you see them work


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## Guest

Amanda Caldron said:


> I have heard of this so many times from clients. They want a scarey looking dog.... the ears cropped and tail docked a darker dog with huge head and muscles. lol. I personally believe there are some absolutely beautiful rotts, dobes, and bull breeds. I am more a fan to what they have to offer my eyes! But because of being so disappointed when owning different breeds and watching them work I decided to get something a little harder on my eyes to gain on the working aspect. I am a firm believer in drives, function (work), health, and nerves and then look. I will say it has gotten me some beautiful dogs and some really ugly dogs.  I believe though that 90% of dutch shepherds and mals are ugly! Until you see them work


 
You should see mine! I docked his tail and cropped his ears, not to mention had contact lenses made for him with RED EYES!


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## Carol Boche

Jody Butler said:


> You should see mine! I docked his tail and cropped his ears, not to mention had contact lenses made for him with RED EYES!


<snort> :mrgreen: were they cat eyes too? THAT would be CREEPY!!! 

I dunno....my dogs are all COOL looking to me AND they work....that is all that matters. But, give me an ugly dog that works and I am good with that TOO!!!!!!


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## Guest

Carol Boche said:


> <snort> :mrgreen: were they cat eyes too? THAT would be CREEPY!!!
> 
> I dunno....my dogs are all COOL looking to me AND they work....that is all that matters. But, give me an ugly dog that works and I am good with that TOO!!!!!!


 
Painted the nails too! and had Titanium teeth caps put in....


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## Amanda Caldron

LOL!!! Nice.... good dog for letting you do all that! Smirk


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## John Wolf

After having a Boxer that has good prey but no aggression, I would take a dog with some sort of aggression. I have done everything I am comfortable with to get thedog in aggression(flanking, etc..) to get the dog to bite and it just won't, so I would make sure any working dog I got had a serious side. FWIW


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## Joby Becker

John Wolf said:


> After having a Boxer that has good prey but no aggression, I would take a dog with some sort of aggression. I have done everything I am comfortable with to get thedog in aggression(flanking, etc..) to get the dog to bite and it just won't, so I would make sure any working dog I got had a serious side. FWIW


did you try some fence work, or tying the dog out at night doing incremental defensive distance work? or Prey guarding? 

How was the flank done? was the flanking done on a real short chain without you there? if so what happened? just curious...as I haven't run into any boxers that I couldn't get to show aggression.


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## Donna DeYoung

which of these dogs looks meaner?


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## Carol Boche

None of them look mean to me......


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## Donna DeYoung

that's hilarious. yep, they're pets with an attitude.
here they are in action.


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## Carol Boche

Yeah....but.....doing that does not make for a "mean" dog


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## Kara Fitzpatrick

will fernandez said:


> I dont care what the dog looks like and would not care what the breed was as long as it fell into the type of dog that I prefer.



very nicely said, I completely agree.


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## Amy Swaby

I want a balance truthfully, nothing worse than an ugly rott -shudders- I want drives but I don't want my dog to look like a potcake either. Now if we are talking about a scratch or broken tooth or kinked tail..I don't care. 

With rottweilers you don't need much beyond a GOOD looking dog to get people to not mess with you. Lived next door to someone with dogs that had excellent drives and training, while i only had one show quality rottweiler with minimal drive at best. His house has been broken into several times, no one's touched my yard yet.


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## Martine Loots

My dogs are *working* dogs, so first of all I want them to have a strong character AND a healthy body.
Has to be a malinois, because that's the breed I need for my sport, but I also want it to look like a mali (NOT like a show line mali).

For instance, I'd never take a blue mali, no matter how good it was. When I pick a pup, I do look at the way it looks too. Have to like his attitude but also the looks.


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## Harry Keely

Martine Loots said:


> My dogs are *working* dogs, so first of all I want them to have a strong character AND a healthy body.
> Has to be a malinois, because that's the breed I need for my sport, but I also want it to look like a mali (NOT like a show line mali).
> 
> For instance, I'd never take a blue mali, no matter how good it was. When I pick a pup, I do look at the way it looks too. Have to like his attitude but also the looks.


So if a blue mali was the best in the litter and what your describing was the second or third you would not go with the one showing the most promise and workability because of looks, Just asking and why ?


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## Martine Loots

Harry Keely said:


> So if a blue mali was the best in the litter and what your describing was the second or third you would not go with the one showing the most promise and workability because of looks, Just asking and why ?


Fortunately there always are more then one promising pups in a litter ;-)
No, I wouldn't take the blue one.


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## Donna DeYoung

what is wrong w/ a Blue mal?
I adopted a blue Dobie from a friend to help them out, and sure enough, the dog blew her coat. how can anyone breed those things!
Donna


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## Martine Loots

Blue colour isn't accepted for a mal. If other people don't mind, that's ok with me but I don't want it. And IMO it shouldn't be allowed for a blue mali to breed, no matter how good it is in sport.


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## Harry Keely

Martine Loots said:


> Fortunately there always are more then one promising pups in a litter ;-)
> No, I wouldn't take the blue one.


So you would pass up the best pup just because of looks, Blues not acceptable I am aware of that but I and everybody else should be putting workability above all else.


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## Harry Keely

Martine Loots said:


> Blue colour isn't accepted for a mal. If other people don't mind, that's ok with me but I don't want it. And IMO it shouldn't be allowed for a blue mali to breed, no matter how good it is in sport.


What about outside of sport as far as say real life applications wheter it be LE or MWD, you think it should still matter and why?


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## Tanith Wheeler

Harry Keely said:


> What about outside of sport as far as say real life applications wheter it be LE or MWD, you think it should still matter and why?


I once saw a police dog that was a white german shepherd


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## Harry Keely

Tanith Wheeler said:


> I once saw a police dog that was a white german shepherd


Thats what I'm getting out, color dont mean shit its hould be the workability of a dog, Just curious to Martines outlook on it and why.


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## Howard Gaines III

I agree with Carol, none. Mean I don't want...focused and will to work, take them all day long.


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## Howard Gaines III

Harry Keely said:


> Thats what I'm getting out, color dont mean shit its hould be the workability of a dog, Just curious to Martines outlook on it and why.


 I have to disagree to something. It isn't the color that works, it's the dog. The color DOES play into some of the issues we see with working dogs. Breeding poor color is a mistake. I have seen color-paled Shepherds that showed signs of being a little flakey...


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## Harry Keely

Howard Gaines III said:


> I have to disagree to something. It isn't the color that works, it's the dog. The color DOES play into some of the issues we see with working dogs. Breeding poor color is a mistake. I have seen color-paled Shepherds that showed signs of being a little flakey...


Howard your right same thing with Black malis, point I'm trying to make is if they are great workers and fit the M.O. for the job are you going to turn them down because of color especially after they have passed your test for what you need them for because theres another one thats so-so but is the right color. I sure the hell am not going to turn down the best candideate because of looks. Its like the smucks that call me and must have a black brindle but cant give good reasoning why other than they want black brindle, so i tell them to go take a fringing walk because I reserve that right to.


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## Howard Gaines III

Harry don't get me wrong...color for breeding IS one of the important elements, like the coat. For bite work who cares?!!!! I want something that is an eater. Pretty never got the job done. This is the reason I work 24/7!


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## jack van strien

Howard i have seen some flaky german shepherds in every colour they come in,not so long ago and i believe there are still a lot around a lot of KNPV dogs were light coloured or pale..I believe Van Leeuwen produces blue sometimes?
To me it does not matter what colour they are as long as they have what it takes.


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## Cate Helfgott

Howard Gaines III said:


> I have to disagree to something. It isn't the color that works, it's the dog. The color DOES play into some of the issues we see with working dogs. Breeding poor color is a mistake. I have seen color-paled Shepherds that showed signs of being a little flakey...


This strikes me as a silly comment.

Weaker color in shepherds and flakiness has more to do with poor breeding practices and not breeding for correct temperment and drive then it does with the color.

I've seen some beautifuly pigmented shepherds that were not just flaky but utter crap. I used to do Conformation -- you see LOTS of dogs with excellent pigment that really just plain suck.

If color had anything to do with drive, temperment or nerves I imagine there would be alot less of a show vs work debate in Shepherds.

~Cate


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## Cate Helfgott

Sorry...I wanted to add on more to this and explain a little better. The reason you'll see so many poor whites is not because they are white dogs...it's because they werent bred with a mind towards work. For the most part White Shepherds are bred for color first, companions second, and perhaps herding third. Few WSD Breeders...and none that I know of in the US, breed towards sport or police work...though many do breed with Herding and SAR in mind. with the exception of Herding and SAR...the breeding practices dont really lend themselves to strong dogs. There are some folks working to change that....but they are in such a minority that their efforts will only really affect their lines and are unlikely to affect the population.

Breeding for that is not unlike breeding for the well pigmented showlines. The goals are different then that of those breeding for work. Temperment, drive and ability is put well behind looks and movement and color...and as a result these dogs are pretty much useless creatures. It's not a function of color rather it is a function of the breeding practices employed that produce those colors.

~Cate


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