# "too much" bonding?



## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

i received such great ideas from my last post, i'm going to challenge the gang again.

reminder, my pup is 8 mo old, 60% DDR/40% WG working lines. i have finally been able to take him to the club the past 2 weeks. on both occasions, when we put him on a tie-out for the TD to simply build drive w/a tug, brix sits behind me and just looks at the TD.

when i leave him to stand behind the TD (or out of sight around the corner), brix hollers for me, but does get into drive for the tug, has fantastic grips when he gets into drive. he's just kind of slow getting into drive.

once he's into drive, i come back to him, praise him up when he gets the bite, no problem. 

when i work him at home, he's instantly in drive--i don't even have to have a tug or whatever in my hand, he's looking for it, jumping, all over the tug if i have one, trying to get it. he's like that at training too--if it's ME w/the tug.

so, my TD said i have to step back a little-- i'm not to work building drive w/him, i need to "un-bond" i guess is the best way i know how to express it; treat him not so much like a pet, as a dog w/a job, work more NILIF, more outside kennel time vs. inside crate time.

i think the bottom line is, i have to un-hook him from thinking that all the fun comes from Mom--it can come from other people too. 

thoughts? suggestions? i have discovered that while his prey drive is WAY good, i'm not prepared at this point to utilize it much for OB (though i will), but with less food, i finally found a treat he's REALLY into: liver. so i can work w/food drive for the OB. (we're still in the distraction phase, w/few corrections). 

ask me questions if you need more info--i'll look forward to them. and THANKS in advance.


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## Doug Wendling (Apr 1, 2006)

Ann
I have a question for you, what is your end goal with the dog? 
So, you said in the last two weeks you have finally been able to get him to club. Does this mean it is the first time he has ever been there?
Is he ever back tied at home or anywhere else other then the past two weeks at club?

I personally don't see this as a problem, you are dealing with a young dog. Their can be a number of reasons and without seeing the dog it is hard to pin point the "problem". Could be he is stressed a little and it is creating a little bit of conflict that is over riding his prey drive at first? I know you said your TD is trying to "build drive", but maybe your pup is not taking it the way you or your TD thinks he should be taking it? Could be he is just plain old confused by the situation? If he would bark and scream for you and do nothing, then you may have a problem. You said yourself he is a slow starter, right? But, then when he gets going he is fine, correct?
At 8 months old he has a long way to go before he is mature

As far as separating him from you, kennel versus whatever type of life he has been leading. Personally I think this will only serve to confuse the dog. I do not agree that kennel life "builds drive". It may build a temporary abundance of energy that is waiting to be released when you get him out, but that is about all. This is my opinion based on my experience.

Doug


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

> I do not agree that kennel life "builds drive". It may build a temporary abundance of energy that is waiting to be released when you get him out, but that is about all. This is my opinion based on my experience.


I agree with that. Does that put me in the minority? Although, I'll also suggest that, lack of novel experience (socialization, new environments, activities) could reduce "drive". Too much routine dulls the mind.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I think all the dog needs is more exposure to the outside world. 
Why did he not see all this as a younger pup?
I wouldn't look at it as "unhooking him from mom", just hooking him up with the rest of the world.


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

thanks for all the replies people. 

to try to answer questions about the situation: he's been to training a few times as a younger pup (before the heat hit in june/july); at that point it was mostly bringing him out at "puppy socializing time". the TD had me work him a little to show him (the TD) his drive--which was fine as long as i was the person w/the tug.

as far as just "socializing" him goes, he takes crowds of people, fair rides, stores, various obstacles, playgrounds, etc., in stride. some of the playground stuff he's needed a little help to get through the first time (short slides/tunnels), but once he does it he's fine, goes right after it.

one big factor in not getting to the club during the heat months was that my car was simply too unreliable to attempt the trip--now i have a new "used" car that's great. so now we're going to club, and this (OP) is what i'm seeing/hearing.

does any of that help? he's certainly not afraid to sound the alarm when we pull into our driveway ( :roll: could we figure THAT one out?? ), when he sees a fake horse statue/a wierd stump/anything that "doesn't belong".

love this forum, BTW. now, if only i could get the time to get a little rope toy from the dollar store to start working the hold command (sorry--homecoming week this week :wink: ). no time for after work errands...


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

With more time on the field, I think he'll be fine. 
When someone comments on how well their young dog does at home that tells me the dog has potential. Just doesn't have the exposure yet.
The one thing I'm a little leary of is his sounding the alarm "when he sees a fake horse statue/a wierd stump/ anything that "doesn't belong". 
This is showing a little sharpness or nerve issues for a young dog.
Does he investigate these things that "don't belong" or does he avoid them? 
What's important is how he recovers from these things.


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

i think doug has a couple of items nailed: he's not been back-tied at home, he's confused a bit (because at home, when he's held by one of us and another "disappears", it's the "revier" game, where-in when he's held ((back-tied)) then released to go find whoever it is that's hiding). i'll bring that up w/TD next weekend.

bob--he IS sharp, gets it from his dam (from what his "breeder" said). here's how he approaches "dog-eating monsters": hackles, starts sneaking w/hackles, if i act like it's no big deal, will keep an eye on it, w/hackles. we go on by, take a circle back past, might get a bit of a reaction (if he does, we go back by again, let him approach/investigate, but NO BIG DEAL from mom).

the weird thing is, that the examples from my previous post (horse/stump/etc) all gained a reaction while he was in the car--not just out and about. i've never had him react strongly while we were out in public, on leash. there, he's really just a happy guy irregardless of statues/playground equipment/etc. 

his recovery from scary things is, i think, good. it just takes me being unconcerned, and a trip (at most 2) past the scary thing and he just doesn't react. so is this good? i think so.

he took a trip down a slide last weekend (short--6')--first time, i had my daughter at the bottom to call him, had to give him a push. next time, took her calling, me saying "go on", he was a bit hesitant, but tried it without any physical help. after that--no prob: up the stairs, down the slide.

so he's a (to me) perfect combination of sharpness/courage...but what do YOU guys think? he's hard, too, BTW. can we say DDR??? :roll:


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## Guest (Oct 5, 2006)

Ann, I wouldn't worry about him yet; he IS young, and may very well be a quite-late-to-mature kind of lad. That is, if he's anything like his uncle. Caleb had a touch of that sharpness as a younger dog, but gets less like that as he gets older. He's to the point now that he's got plenty of prey drive, loves to bite a sleeve (but doesn't mind biting without :wink: ), and will obey a 3 yr old girl whom he has never met as if she trained him herself from a tiny pup. GO FIGURE! They seem to change so much...take all the suggestions already offered from the others, and good luck. I really do think he'll be fine-few trainers seem to give these DDR guys the time they need, or understand their personalities at that age.

Re: "un-bonding"- I dunno about this one. To me, bonding doesn't seem like a bad thing, but what can be negative is coddling and sheltering him from experiences. This may be what was meant by "un-bonding," but from my personal experience with my own dogs and fosters, all the most rewarding experiences in training happened after a pretty intensive bond was formed. Watch the babying, overprotectiveness, etc., but keep the bond. JMO.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Just from reading the descriptions, which I realize is nothing like personal observation I can determine two things.

1. I think some of the reaction are the dog are fear, probably from inadequate socialization.

2. He would not be selected for police training.

I know that is a broad leap, and my comments are made solely from the behavior descriptions in this thread.

Could the dog be trained? I think it's possible, with time and the right approach. For law enforcement, however, there just isn't time to take on a dog like this, when there are so many more to chose from. 

DFrost


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

then it's a good thing he's not meant for LE, isn't it?  

thanks for all the ideas/suggestions. daryl--it's funny that you bring up TD's and inexperience w/DDR-bred dogs; at least my TD DID ask about his breeding, as he said it would affect his approach to working him. the GSD at club are either Czech bred or showline dogs. the TD has Rotties (so you'd think he'd know about slower-maturing dogs). but he's really good w/brix: once he's drivey, i come back out w/him, he gets a bite if he tries hard to get one. i've seen this TD send a pup back (to the crate) when the pup doesn't try. 

and, upon re-reading my post about how brix reacts to weird stuff when out and about (when he reacts at all), the "sneaking/hackles" has only happened at night, and the "sneaking" is his "sneaking up on prey" sneak: low, slow, FOCUSSED, ears up, one foot at a time. not a fearful, cowering sneak. and that's only been out here; heck he was riding a skateboard (yes, all 4 feet) when he was 16 wks old--no fear. 

love this dog 8)


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