# Should I get an e-collar?



## Kori Bigge

Kodee is a housedog, and although we live on 15 acres just outside of town, our property is not fenced, and we live on a busy road. When I take Kodee outdoors, he is always on-leash, unless we are out back for exercise (farther from the road), and then he is on a long-line. This is how he gets his "running time" in. Frisbee, fetch, etc is on a long-line. However, I do not trust his recall 100%, so I am careful that he doesn't get too far from me, even on the long-line (it's a 30 foot line). Our neighbors have horses, and cattle. So far Kodee has never shown an interest in the livestock, but if he did, I am afraid he could get away from me, long line or not.

I would also like him to have more freedom to run around possibly at the park, the lake, etc. I just don't like that he isn't allowed to run very far, b/c of safety issues. I do feel like he gets enough exercise, but he could always get more. Would an e-collar be a good tool for me in this situation? If so, which one would be the best (I would rather pay the money for a good quality one - you get what you pay for, usually). Also, how long would it take to improve his recall on an e-collar? I'm assuming I could use it for corrections for anything, if he was off-lead, but I don't want to screw up and confuse him.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated. I would love to work w/Kodee off-lead, but I am terrified for his safety. He got hit by a car once several months ago, when I let him follow me from out back to go into our house. Normally what I do is take his long-line off, then take him into the house on a leash. About 3-4 times I skipped putting him on leash to go in, and just let him follow us off-lead. (It's not a very far distance to walk with us). About the 4th time I did this, he took off and ran across the road. When I followed to get him, he darted into the road and ran into the side of a passing car. Knocked him unconscious, but no other injuries. Needless to say, I don't want this to ever happen again). 

I guess my main worry is whether an e-collar would be more reliable (if he was trained properly) than a long-line. If I decide to get an e-collar, I would probably order it from Leerburg, along w/this DVD:

http://leerburg.com/318.htm


----------



## Chris Michalek

No eCollar.

You don't have to be terrified for his safety if you train your dog properly.

From what I read, you're dog isn't trained at all and you should be terrified that he isn't trained


----------



## Kori Bigge

Thank you for the frank reply. However, I am already aware that he isn't trained properly (on the recall, at least) - that is why I'm asking the question. I thought perhaps an e-collar would be a good tool for training.

Anyone else?


----------



## Sharon Adams

here is a link I saw on another forum re shock collars that you might want to read?
http://www.ust.is/media/ljosmyndir/dyralif/Trainingdogswithshockcollar.pdf


----------



## Kyle Sprag

If you are going to use an e-collar like you want you need to get with someone who has experience using them for your application. They will work but a video is not enough to learn from, you need hands on.


----------



## Kyle Sprag

Sharon Adams said:


> here is a link I saw on another forum re shock collars that you might want to read?
> http://www.ust.is/media/ljosmyndir/dyralif/Trainingdogswithshockcollar.pdf


 
Sounds like a CROCK-O-Poo Poo. More AR BS!


----------



## Lisa Maze

No an e-collar is not safer than a long line. As long as you are holding the end of the long line, your dog cannot run away.

Yes, an e-collar may be a good tool for you however I never recommend using one unless you are being coached by someone who is well versed in their use. Nothing magnifies your errors in timing as greatly as an e-collar. Correct at the wrong time an instead of teaching you dog to come you teach him to be afraid of the rock he was standing by when you corrected him for not coming. 

One of the largest differences between an e-collar and other on line corrections is that the e-collar correction feels the same regardless of the transgression and offers no guidance as to the correct behavior. If you are giving a leash correction for sit the pressure on the collar is below the chin and the dog is naturally propelled into the sit. If you are giving a correction for the down the pressure is on top of the neck and the dog is pushed toward the ground and the correct response. 

Add to that the tendency for newbies to the collar to mistake it for a remote control and to expect pushing a button to change the channel to the dog's "come when called" channel.

So, hire a trainer, ask him/her which collar they prefer, bolster up your current training level by upping the rewards and training several times a day then reconsider the e-collar.

Good luck and until then keep a good grip on that long line!

Lisa


----------



## Geoff Empey

Kori Bigge said:


> I guess my main worry is whether an e-collar would be more reliable (if he was trained properly) than a long-line. If I decide to get an e-collar, I would probably order it from Leerburg, along w/this DVD:
> 
> http://leerburg.com/318.htm


Kori properly done an e-collar can be the best thing that you can do. That being said it is also one of the most abused things if you do not have the proper training on how to use it yourself. 

I bought a a high quality mid priced e-collar and that very DVD, thinking along the same lines as you were. I read the hype on the internet and understand the e-collar concept and bought into it.

Though now my e-collar remains in the bottom of my training bag and the DVD to me didn't really help me a whole lot. As the DVD was recorded around older equipment ie: hard to understand what "the middle setting of D" means to relation to your own collar. 

You really need to touch base with someone who actually uses and trains with an e-collar as every dog is different as is your situation. In hindsight I wish that I bought something else as that is $400 bucks I'll never see again. 

Think of it this way.. No collar doesn't matter if it is a uber expensive e-collar, a long line with a pinch or a piece of spaghetti is going to train your dog ... it is *YOU* the handler/owner/trainer that is going to train the dog nothing else. That is what you have to focus on.


----------



## Anne Vaini

Kori,

Recall involves several skills.

*The dog must be able to draw its attention away from something interesting and focus on the handler.

*The dog must be able to turn and face the handler.

*The dog must return to the handler and STAY with the handler so the handler can regain control of the dog.

*The dog must believe that it recall is worth it.

These skills are initially taught with rewards, trained in distractions with a long-line (for safety) and rewards, then drilled with corrections and rewards, then trained with corrections and variable rewards, then faded off of rewards.

If you haven't been thorough in training, then adding the e-collar isn't going to help and can cause additional headaches that are harder to solve.

My dog pictured in my avatar can go to a 9 acre dog park, be out of sight and playing with other dogs, but will recall. No e-collar, just thorough training.


----------



## David Frost

Personally I think Anne has given some excellant advice. An e-collar does not solve every problem in the world. Apply some good old consistent training first, then determine if you have a problem.

DFrost


----------



## Lee H Sternberg

I never owned a ecollar until 10 month ago. I would never be without one again. As far as I'm concerned it is the best, most humane training tool, if used properly, since someone invented the leash. In fact I consider it a extension of the leash that has given my dog alot more freedom than he would have had otherwise.,


----------



## Chris Michalek

Lee H Sternberg said:


> I never owned a ecollar until 10 month ago. I would never be without one again. As far as I'm concerned it is the best, most humane training tool, if used properly, since someone invented the leash. In fact I consider it a extension of the leash that has given my dog alot more freedom than he would have had otherwise.,


Yes Lee, but one has to know how to use one or you can really **** up a dog. 

A few years ago, I was at a park when a GSD approached. I put out my hand with an open palm for the dog to approach me, just as the touch my hand the owner shocked the shit out it. I talked with the owner for a minute and she shocked the shit out of the dog again because she thought her dog was going to jump up on me. 

Whatever... a good way to create an anti-social dog.

I do agree they can be very good training devices but no for somebody who can't get their dog to do a basic recall in an open field.


----------



## Carol Boche

Chris Michalek said:


> I do agree they can be very good training devices but no for somebody who can't get their dog to do a basic recall in an open field.


I agree with this statement and also will humbly admit that I resembled it with my first Mal. E-collar was used...UGH

I can proudly say though, with hard work she now recalls nicely whether the collar is on or not. It was hard though as she was set in her ways. 
But after researching, reading and advice from trainers she is MUCH, MUCH better, even when she flushes an animal. She now just kind of jumps forward and watched it and then returns to me. 
Not perfect, but progress and with continued hard work on my part, she will only get better. \\/


----------



## Kori Bigge

Thank you all for the good advice and ideas. I will hold off on the e-collar, and go back to square one with working on recall and the long line. I really appreciate all the help!


----------



## Lee H Sternberg

Chris - I agree with your all your statements. In the wrong hands it will screw up a good dog. You can treat a dog unfairly with many training devices including choke, prongs or even a flat collar. I think you need to assess the particular dog prior to using any compulsion.

Besides a training dvd, I had a lot of help along the way with the use of the ecollar. I asked many question both publicly on forums and privately.

I was guilty of leaving the collar in the same location too long. It caused sores on his neck. I felt horrible.


----------



## Howard Gaines III

Kori my spin on the e-collar is simple. Use it as a LAST measure tool. Go back and work recalls with food, a toy, motivational stuff. Do it twice a day for two weeks and then see. I own a Dogtra 1700 and it is nice, about $350.+/-. None of my dogs are allowed to run wild on my farm. Accidents can happen and big bucks can be spent for other things than pet OR calls.

If you get one don't go cheap. Try Cabela's, Gander Mtn., or Bass Pro Shop and ask the sales folks. Many times they are selling to bird dog folks and they can give you a lead as to who would be good in your area to talk to about the use. ALWAYS start on the lowest setting to see the reaction your dog gives to the stimulation, going higher isn't always better! Fried hound is $3.95 a pound in some parts of the world! :razz: :---)


----------



## Anna Kasho

Bird dog e-collar training is usually the "escape training" method. May not be the best resource, IMO.

Although, I worked on one "come" command with the escape method, with the thought that if anything ever malfunctions and the stim doesn't stop, the dog would run to me rather than shut down or panic. So far, the only malfunction has been with the transmitter not sending signal, no problem for the dog. Turnaround for repairs has been super fast. I have a Dogtra 1700, the 2-dog version.

Early on, I realised my first dog in training was cuing off my finger on the button. Everyone talks about neutralising the dog to the collar, but no one mentions neutrallising to the transmitter too...


----------



## Lee H Sternberg

That's very true Anna. I noticed my dog cuing off the transmitter too. I have a belt clip holster. If I'm using the ecollar I rest my hand on the holster and transmitter. In the winter I don't use the holster and keep the transmitter in my pocket. It's too cumbersome to use with a jacket. Then I just keep my hand in my pocket. Both ways seem to help but not eliminate the issue.


----------



## Lee H Sternberg

Howard, you gotta get into ebay. I picked up a new Dogtra 1700 a couple of months ago for $220. I understand it's a discontinued model but what the heck. I don't need it yet but I grabbed it because it was a good buy and I already own the same model. I didn't want to have to get used to a different button pattern for my new dog.


----------



## Kris Dow

Kori Bigge said:


> Thank you all for the good advice and ideas. I will hold off on the e-collar, and go back to square one with working on recall and the long line. I really appreciate all the help!


Depending on how on the ball your dog is, it may help to shake up the length of long line- get a longer one, or make a longer line for occasional use, just something to get you out of the zone he's come to associate with 'being under the person's control'. I've known dogs who knew darn well how long their lead was, and would behave impeccably up until the point where they realized you couldn't be holding it anymore (if you'd dropped it, for example) and then that was the end of that. 

Actually, another thing you could work on in addition to recall is street crossing. Teach him not to cross the street without permission. It won't be 100% (in that you couldn't leave him and just expect him never to cross) but it does seem to help. (My new dog, Pirate, gets FAR too excited about other dogs, and when I got him was trying to dash over all the time to greet dogs on the other side of the street. I've had him for about 6 weeks, and his dog enthusiasm is improving, but also as the street crossing training has progressed, I've seen him check HIMSELF mid-run when he realizes there's a street there. Like I said, I wouldn't count on it to stop him completely, but that does give you an extra half-second to take action.) (I do think part of keeping it successful is to 'reward' the dog by crossing the street when he wants some of the time. If there's something on the other side of the street he wants to see, and he stops and waits to cross, he might get to go. If he tries to run across, he NEVER gets to go.)


----------



## Bob Scott

They can be a great tool however, I think they are to often used as a short cut from a lack good training! JMHO!


----------



## Mike charatin

The very first on leash training exercise we teach is the stay close followed by leave it. If you cannot walk your dog off leash and have fear he will chase whatever, then I highly recomend you find someone who is qualified to teach you this.The e-collar is for lazy people.


----------



## Ian Forbes

Sharon Adams said:


> here is a link I saw on another forum re shock collars that you might want to read?
> http://www.ust.is/media/ljosmyndir/dyralif/Trainingdogswithshockcollar.pdf


Unfortunately the Schilder study is very flawed and rather biased IMO.....


----------



## Ian Forbes

Mike charatin said:


> The e-collar is for lazy people.


Well I'll bite.....it's just a tool!

A lazy person will get crap results with an e-collar, just as they would using any other tool.


----------



## Lee H Sternberg

Mike charatin said:


> The very first on leash training exercise we teach is the stay close followed by leave it. If you cannot walk your dog off leash and have fear he will chase whatever, then I highly recomend you find someone who is qualified to teach you this.The e-collar is for lazy people.


Or people not as close minded as you. That last statement is one heck of a general statement. I, for one spend, many hours training and playing with my dogs. I also have a great private trainer that helps me over the difficult spots and for bitework.:-x


----------



## Howard Gaines III

Well Lee if not doing ebay sounds bad, I don't have nor do I know how to use a cellphone! A throw back to cave dwellers...


----------



## Lee H Sternberg

Howard - Not owning a cell phone may not be all bad. Sometimes I'd like to trash mine. They are kinda like a leash.


----------



## Chris Michalek

Howard Gaines III said:


> Well Lee if not doing ebay sounds bad, I don't have nor do I know how to use a cellphone! A throw back to cave dwellers...


Do you at least eat seafood and enjoy an occasional espresso or latte?

I'm hoping you're not like my wife's father... steaks cooked like a hockey puck and no seasoning. He won't even eat pizza if it has anything more than cheese on it. He's a farmer too:-k


----------



## Howard Gaines III

When I'm out hunting or fishing, the LAST thing I want to hear is a phone. QUIET! Yep nice and quiet, being one with nature. I like steaks medium rare, cold imported beer, and give me those shrimp! 

Farmers are OUTSTANDING in their field!!! ;-)


----------



## Al Curbow

I like the ecollar and it's a great tool. Check out Lou Castle's site.


----------



## David Frost

Bob Scott said:


> They can be a great tool however, I think they are to often used as a short cut from a lack good training! JMHO!


I agree.

DFrost


----------



## Al Curbow

David and Bob, where's the "shortcut from a lack of good training" in training using the ecollar? Can you explain? I don't take shortcuts and have excellent obedience on my dogs, no leashes required in any situation, lol


----------



## Bob Scott

Al Curbow said:


> David and Bob, where's the "shortcut from a lack of good training" in training using the ecollar? Can you explain? I don't take shortcuts and have excellent obedience on my dogs, no leashes required in any situation, lol


Al, you answered your own question when you said "I don't take shortcuts".
Knowledge in the correct use of any training tool is the key. :wink:


----------



## Edmond Kan

I agree to the posts above - that training your dog is v. important and an e-collar is not necessary as the desired behaviour can be achieved without it...

From my experience, I have had clients who have been smart about their ability in training their dog... e.g. they know they dont have the time/consistency/patience/ability to train their dog, so they fitted an e-collar containment system. 
That meant that a wire is placed around their facility (they lived on a farm) - and to prevent the dog from getting out, when the dog gets within a few metres of the wire, the dog is buzzed.

She (the owner) really was happy about the use of the containment system since she could let the dog run anywhere on her land, and feel safer (for her dog and her neighbours).

Given that, she also trains her dog on agility and jumping (without e-collar) using motivational methods - the ecollar is simply to say to the dog that he cannot go beyond the wire perimeter boundary...

I'm not promoting it, but just to let you know that this product is available and it has been an option for many people who cannot or don't want to train their dog.:smile:

Oh, and her dog DID get out of the containment system 2-3 times - and the dog couldn't get back 'into' the farm... but after that, no more escaping!


----------



## Kris Dow

Edmond Kan said:


> I agree to the posts above - that training your dog is v. important and an e-collar is not necessary as the desired behaviour can be achieved without it...
> 
> From my experience, I have had clients who have been smart about their ability in training their dog... e.g. they know they dont have the time/consistency/patience/ability to train their dog, so they fitted an e-collar containment system.
> That meant that a wire is placed around their facility (they lived on a farm) - and to prevent the dog from getting out, when the dog gets within a few metres of the wire, the dog is buzzed.
> 
> She (the owner) really was happy about the use of the containment system since she could let the dog run anywhere on her land, and feel safer (for her dog and her neighbours).
> 
> Given that, she also trains her dog on agility and jumping (without e-collar) using motivational methods - the ecollar is simply to say to the dog that he cannot go beyond the wire perimeter boundary...
> 
> I'm not promoting it, but just to let you know that this product is available and it has been an option for many people who cannot or don't want to train their dog.:smile:
> 
> Oh, and her dog DID get out of the containment system 2-3 times - and the dog couldn't get back 'into' the farm... but after that, no more escaping!


I know a couple of other people with that type of system and they're very happy with it.


----------



## Al Curbow

Edmon, we're talking about ecollars with handheld transmitters, not containment systems


----------



## David Frost

Al Curbow said:


> David and Bob, where's the "shortcut from a lack of good training" in training using the ecollar? Can you explain? I don't take shortcuts and have excellent obedience on my dogs, no leashes required in any situation, lol


I've seen people, rather than build the foundation through good training fundamentals, immediately go to e-collars. In my opinion that's taking a shortcut. I'm not opposed to e-collars. I use them.

DFrost


----------



## Mo Earle

I would say if you do not know how to use an ecollar - I would suggest No....get help. 

I have to disagree with _ecollars are only for the "lazy" or the people that want to take short cuts...[-X[-X_
I use an ecollar as ONE of my training tools...with great success....I am not lazy..at least when it comes to my dogs..I don't have my dogs yelping from corrections and I don't shock the crap out of them....but I do feel if you know how to work the collar, know how to get the timing correctly, you can actually give less forceful correction- than you would from a prong or choke collar, less conflict with the dog, with quicker results...so I guess that is why it looks like you took a shortcut? it is like anything...if you don't know what your doing,or not comfortable with it...your probably going to mess it up, at least the first time. 


and with Ecollar training...my dogs are not only happy...they are staying lean and fit, not getting filled up on all those training treats....


----------



## Lee H Sternberg

Mo - That's perfectly written and precisely how I feel. I just couldn't put it as eloquently as you just did.


----------



## Bob Scott

Mo Earle said:


> I would say if you do not know how to use an ecollar - I would suggest No....get help.
> 
> I have to disagree with _ecollars are only for the "lazy" or the people that want to take short cuts...[-X[-X_
> I use an ecollar as ONE of my training tools...with great success....I am not lazy..at least when it comes to my dogs..I don't have my dogs yelping from corrections and I don't shock the crap out of them....but I do feel if you know how to work the collar, know how to get the timing correctly, you can actually give less forceful correction- than you would from a prong or choke collar, less conflict with the dog, with quicker results...so I guess that is why it looks like you took a shortcut? it is like anything...if you don't know what your doing,or not comfortable with it...your probably going to mess it up, at least the first time.
> 
> 
> and with Ecollar training...my dogs are not only happy...they are staying lean and fit, not getting filled up on all those training treats....


My comments weren't that e-collars being for ONLY "lazy or the people that want to take shortcuts". Just that many use it for those reasons. 
I think everyone agrees that, when used properly, it's another tool in the box. I own pinch collars and e-collars. I'll use one or both if I ever feel they are needed. ;-) 
If dogs are "getting filled up on all those training treats" I can only say that's just another abuse of a training tool.


----------



## Mike charatin

Bob Scott said:


> My comments weren't that e-collars being for ONLY "lazy or the people that want to take shortcuts". Just that many use it for those reasons.
> I think everyone agrees that, when used properly, it's another tool in the box. I own pinch collars and e-collars. I'll use one or both if I ever feel they are needed. ;-)
> If dogs are "getting filled up on all those training treats" I can only say that's just another abuse of a training tool.


Nice responce and I agree to an extent, however if your foundation work is properly laid there should be no problem but if you do find there is a problem later on in training go back to basics and fix it.Mo I was the one that said it was for lazy people and I stand by that.If there is a problem take a few steps back in training and fix it . Not only will you become a better trainer but you will also spend more time enjoying working with your dog, it's a win win.I also agree it is a tool a tool for the lazy. JMHO.


----------



## Mike charatin

Lee H Sternberg said:


> Or people not as close minded as you. That last statement is one heck of a general statement. I, for one spend, many hours training and playing with my dogs. I also have a great private trainer that helps me over the difficult spots and for bitework.:-x


If you spend so much time with them then you would not need an e-collar. I also think you should seek a new trainer that may be able to teach you a little more about foundation work or maybe YOU are too closed minded.:-x


----------



## Bob Scott

Everybody, this is a good discussion. Lets ALL stay open minded about different training methods.
We can disagree without inferring or calling one another closed minded. 
Thanks! 
Bob, from the Mod Squad! ;-) 
Ok, that probably went over most of the younger folks heads.


----------



## Ian Forbes

Mike charatin said:


> Nice responce and I agree to an extent, however if your foundation work is properly laid there should be no problem but if you do find there is a problem later on in training go back to basics and fix it.Mo I was the one that said it was for lazy people and I stand by that.If there is a problem take a few steps back in training and fix it . Not only will you become a better trainer but you will also spend more time enjoying working with your dog, it's a win win.I also agree it is a tool a tool for the lazy. JMHO.


Any other tools that are just for the lazy or is this just e-collars?


----------



## Lee H Sternberg

Mike charatin said:


> If you spend so much time with them then you would not need an e-collar. I also think you should seek a new trainer that may be able to teach you a little more about foundation work or maybe YOU are too closed minded.:-x


 I won't change your opinions and you certainly aren't going to change mine or the thousands of highly motivated knowledgeable trainers who find ecollars useful for a number of things


----------



## Chris Michalek

what about using ecollars for forced retrieves? I personally haven't had to use an eCollar for anything but I can see a use for them in drinking games, neighbors, firefighters who continue to talk shit about others and kids...

The guys I'm working with tell me I can expect to use one for certain schH OB exercises like Fuss and Down in Motion and Stand from Run. But in this case the handler doesn't use the remote, a helper does it from a distance if the dog moves, looks away etc... As they say, it's national level stuff where the handler will need help with 1% of the OB training and can't be effective alone.


----------



## Kyle Sprag

If the handler can't use the remote then why the ecollar in the first place?


----------



## Lisa Maze

Kyle Sprag said:


> If the handler can't use the remote then why the ecollar in the first place?



I often handle the remote for the people I am training with. It allows them to focus on their footwork, the timing of their rewards and allows them to behave like they are in a trial as opposed to training mode.

We also use the e-collar in the bitework for exercises like the guard of object and escort. Here the remote is in the decoy's hand because he has a lot better idea of what is going on in the dog's head and his timing will be better. In the Object Guard he is head to head with the dog while the handler is looking at the dog's butt...who do you think has a better perspective. This is why the OG is my favorite exercise...I can sit under a shade tree and just watch. It also saved my dogs from the distraction of looking over their shoulder waiting for their crazy handler to coome screaming and running over to correct them.

Lisa


----------



## Al Curbow

I think the ecollar gets a bad rap mostly from people that never took the time to learn to use it and are scared of it, so i completely understand some of the comments made on this thread. I really like Lou Castle's method, easy on the dog and easy on us lazy asses, lol.


----------



## Kyle Sprag

Hi Lisa,

I understand and agree with your comments 100%

My post was to point out that if you NEED and/or rely on someone else to Handle the remote for exercises such as "fuse" and motion stand and platz you are in NO position to judge the use of the ecollar by Anyone.


----------



## Lisa Maze

Kyle Sprag said:


> Hi Lisa,
> 
> I understand and agree with your comments 100%
> 
> My post was to point out that if you NEED and/or rely on someone else to Handle the remote for exercises such as "fuse" and motion stand and platz you are in NO position to judge the use of the ecollar by Anyone.



Ah, yes but I think the poster of that comment specified "for National level" stuff...where the handler is trying to present a trial ready picture fo the dog and the helper with the remote is just cleaning up a nearly perfect routine by the dog.

Do you guys have the decoy handle the remote in the Object Guard/Escort?

Lisa


----------



## Kyle Sprag

"Do you guys have the decoy handle the remote in the Object Guard/Escort?"

Not sure if this question was for me but Yes, I will have a skilled decoy I know and trust handle the remote for these things. Unfortunatly I don't get to work with one very often.


----------



## Chris Michalek

Kyle Sprag said:


> Hi Lisa,
> 
> I understand and agree with your comments 100%
> 
> My post was to point out that if you NEED and/or rely on someone else to Handle the remote for exercises such as "fuse" and motion stand and platz you are in NO position to judge the use of the ecollar by Anyone.



Kyle, you misinterpreted my point. I was talking about competing at national level schutzhund trials where the handler in a training session needs to conduct himself as if he were at a trial. Which means no body language, looking down or back at the dog etc... Therefore you have a helper watch the dog for you as you go through the routine. ie down in motion, the handler gives the command and moves forward he may miss the creep an inch or so because he's not/can't looking back at the dog. The TD is watching the dog and gives the correction corrections. It's the same with Fuss.. In a trial the handler needs to be looking straight ahead and can't watch the dog. For a club trial if the dog looks away breifly it's no big deal but at a national level it could make a difference when you need your dog to be perfect. This is why you have somebody watch the dog and the handler for slight mistakes.

Here's another personal example. About a month ago we were going through the schH OB routine and one of my training friends noticed that even though my hands are at my side when I tell the dog to platz in motion I make a very slight pointing motion with my hand. My index finger stayed stright but the other three retract ever so slightly. To a dog and a trial judge that's a cue and points could be lost if caught. For this reason alone is why schH clubs need to have at least one other member watching another member doing OB or anything else. It drives me nuts when I'm working on OB or anything else and nobody is watching. It's not that I need the attention but I can do OB in my backyard with nobody watching if that's what I wanted. Another pair of experienced eyes is more help that most can imagine.


----------



## Kyle Sprag

Chris, I understand and Yes club people should all watch and help pit out things.


----------



## Mo Earle

Bob- my comment was not meant to be a negative response directed toward you- and if it came across as that-I apologize- It was my general response to defend a favorite "training tool" of mine, that is not popular with a lot of people- but like any training tool, if used properly, correctly and not abused- it is a great tool, IMO and I agree with your other statements in regards to abuse of tools and treats. Although the ecollar... it is my favorite, I don't think someone should use it, if they don't know how, a lot of problems can definately be created with its misuse or abuse. Mo
.


----------



## Mo Earle

_Mike said..... "however if your foundation work is properly laid there should be no problem but if you do find there is a problem later on in training go back to basics and fix it."_

Mike, this might take this topic in a different direction...can I ask you what tools you use for your foundation training? Also feel I need to clarify something else...just because I use an ecollar for training..it doesn't mean I am having problems...or have the need to go back to the basics...don't hate me, but actually I am one of "those" trainers that use the ecollar in my foundation training...sorry I know I must be causing some to have a stroke right now... but I bet if you took the opportunity to get training in the use of the ecollar and after you learn the advantages of the ecollar, you too will be adding it to your training tool box....:wink:
(and it will be on top ) Mo


----------



## Bob Scott

Mo Earle said:


> Bob- my comment was not meant to be a negative response directed toward you- and if it came across as that-I apologize- It was my general response to defend a favorite "training tool" of mine, that is not popular with a lot of people- but like any training tool, if used properly, correctly and not abused- it is a great tool, IMO and I agree with your other statements in regards to abuse of tools and treats. Although the ecollar... it is my favorite, I don't think someone should use it, if they don't know how, a lot of problems can definately be created with its misuse or abuse. Mo
> .


Mo- No problem! As I commented they can be an excellent tool. I own one but have chosen to go entirely motivational with my last two dogs. It does work!
If I feel the need to use it or a pinch collar I wouldn't hesitate. I haven't needed them. Just a choice I made.


----------



## Lou Castle

Thanks for the name-drops Al. 

I think that the Ecollar is the best tool available for training most OB behaviors in any kind of dog, any kind of working dog or pet. 

The Schilder Study cited a bit earlier and slammed a bit later, is widely known as one of the worst bits of science that exists on the topic of Ecollars. I have a critique of it on my website if anyone is interested. Http://loucastle.com/schilder.htm 

The Ecollar is an extremely easy tool to use and I think it's easier to learn to use than a leash with traditional correction methods. Many people have gotten themselves an Ecollar and used my articles to learn to use it. They're written in a step-by-step fashion so that even the rankest beginner, if they can read and follow instructions, can apply them. 

I advocate using it for teaching with, at the lowest level of stim that a dog can feel. This is very gentle, much more gentle than just about any leash correction with any type of training collar. 

I've never understood the "lazy trainer" accusation. It takes just as much work to get good results with an Ecollar as with any other tool, but the results come faster. 

I DO NOT care for the DVD that was mentioned earlier. I specifically recommend AGAINST wasting your money on it. 

For the most part in the US people train their dog for basic OB with some other method and then use the Ecollar to proof and/or to correct the dog when he's at a distance. I prefer to use the Ecollar to teach new behaviors with even if the dog already knows them. This allows the dog to learn that he's in charge of the stim, when it starts and that he's the one who controls it, makes it shut off. For me, using the Ecollar the "other way" is just like having an extended leash. You can accomplish a lot doing it that way but it's still limiting.


----------



## Mike charatin

Mo Earle said:


> _Mike said..... "however if your foundation work is properly laid there should be no problem but if you do find there is a problem later on in training go back to basics and fix it."_
> 
> Mike, this might take this topic in a different direction...can I ask you what tools you use for your foundation training? Also feel I need to clarify something else...just because I use an ecollar for training..it doesn't mean I am having problems...or have the need to go back to the basics...don't hate me, but actually I am one of "those" trainers that use the ecollar in my foundation training...sorry I know I must be causing some to have a stroke right now... but I bet if you took the opportunity to get training in the use of the ecollar and after you learn the advantages of the ecollar, you too will be adding it to your training tool box....:wink:
> (and it will be on top ) Mo


I use all motivational training for foundation work, no matter how low of a stim you use its still a negative in the dogs eyes and at an eairly stage of the dogs development they do not need negatives only positives. I have trained with national level helpers who use the e-collar as well as a few reputable groups who do seminars on e-collar training and have found that there dogs are just not as good due to the problems that e-collars create.I understand your passion for the e-collar and dont want to argue about it. Simply put there is nothing you cannot acomplish with your dog without the use of an e-collar if you have the knowlege and apply it.


----------



## Kyle Sprag

"Simply put there is nothing you cannot acomplish with your dog without the use of an e-collar if you have the knowlege and apply it."

I don't agree, Proof = almost every regional, national and world level competitor uses this tool at some point in training, admited or not.


----------



## Sarah ten Bensel

So what kind of dog IS and IS NOT appropriate for the e-collar? the OP states hers is a pet, does this imply the personality or temperament of the dog is a factor?
I have seen it used mostly when someone other than the handler is operating the remote, I believe because they can see the behaviors clearly.


----------



## susan tuck

Mike charatin said:


> I use all motivational training for foundation work, no matter how low of a stim you use its still a negative in the dogs eyes and at an eairly stage of the dogs development they do not need negatives only positives. I have trained with national level helpers who use the e-collar as well as a few reputable groups who do seminars on e-collar training and have found that there dogs are just not as good due to the problems that e-collars create.I understand your passion for the e-collar and dont want to argue about it. Simply put there is nothing you cannot acomplish with your dog without the use of an e-collar if you have the knowlege and apply it.


So then you are critical of any corrections during training since an e-collar correction is certainly no more harsh than a correction with a pinch, chain or even a correction with a flat collar at low level stimulation. 

It's certainly your perogative to train 100% motivational methods. There are several forum members who do the same. Most of the rest of us use a mixed bag, we teach motivational, and add corrections and some compulsion depending on what we are doing and of course, at a level appropriate for the dog we are working.

As so many have said, the e-collar is a great tool.


----------



## Lou Castle

Sarah ten Bensel said:


> So what kind of dog IS and IS NOT appropriate for the e-collar? the OP states hers is a pet, does this imply the personality or temperament of the dog is a factor?


I've not come across a dog whose temperament contra-indicates an Ecollar. I've used them on highly fear-aggressive dogs Http://loucastle.com/roma.htm as well as the most confident of dogs. 

Here's another story of a novice using one on a fear aggressive dog. Http://loucastle.com/simon.htm 

The fact that the stim level can be adjusted so low on today's quality units makes them a suitable tool for all dogs.


----------



## Mike charatin

Kyle Sprag said:


> "Simply put there is nothing you cannot acomplish with your dog without the use of an e-collar if you have the knowlege and apply it."
> 
> I don't agree, Proof = almost every regional, national and world level competitor uses this tool at some point in training, admited or not.


I agree you nailed it. ALMOST every competitor. The good ones under proper instruction don't = better dogs.


----------



## Mike charatin

susan tuck said:


> So then you are critical of any corrections during training since an e-collar correction is certainly no more harsh than a correction with a pinch, chain or even a correction with a flat collar at low level stimulation.
> 
> It's certainly your perogative to train 100% motivational methods. There are several forum members who do the same. Most of the rest of us use a mixed bag, we teach motivational, and add corrections and some compulsion depending on what we are doing and of course, at a level appropriate for the dog we are working.
> 
> As so many have said, the e-collar is a great tool.


If you read any of my other posts you can see that I am not only using motovation in my training. There is a correction as well as proofing phase, but these come after the learning phase. You cannot correct a dog for not performing an excercise that you have never taught him. Again there is nothing you cannot acomplish without the use of an e-collar if you have the knowlege.


----------



## Anna Kasho

Mike charatin said:


> You cannot correct a dog for not performing an excercise that you have never taught him. Again there is nothing you cannot acomplish without the use of an e-collar if you have the knowlege.


Are you saying that everyone using an e-collar trains with the escape method? 

Why do you believe that correcting with the e-collar is so much worse than correcting via any other method, that it must be completely avoided?

In what way would you say dogs trained without the use of e-collar are "better?" And how can you be so sure they were trained without e-collar?

Do you have any experience using an e-collar yourself?


----------



## Kyle Sprag

Mike charatin said:


> I agree you nailed it. ALMOST every competitor. The good ones under proper instruction don't = better dogs.


 
OK, Name Them


----------



## Lisa Maze

Anna Kasho said:


> Are you saying that everyone using an e-collar trains with the escape method?
> QUOTE]
> 
> 
> Okay, I'll bite...how is the e-collar used other than escape/avoidance? Specifically, I mean to teach a behavior not to create arousal (such as in nicking in the blind to stimulate barking?)
> 
> I would love to hear how it is used other than as a aversives stimulus in negative reinforcement/positive punishment.
> 
> Yes, I do use the e-collar, yes I agree every high level team in every sport I play in has used one at some point and no I am not trying to take a moral high ground.
> 
> Lisa


----------



## Anne Vaini

> I would love to hear how it is used other than as a aversives stimulus in negative reinforcement/positive punishment.


I have not tried this, only from not having opportunity (yet). I would like to retrain a deaf dog that has already been trained that a "page" or "vibrate" means "knock-it-off-or-get-shocked."

I would set the e-collar very low (find lowest working stim and go a bit lower than that) and load the stim as a "yes" marker.


----------



## susan tuck

Mike charatin said:


> If you read any of my other posts you can see that I am not only using motovation in my training. There is a correction as well as proofing phase, but these come after the learning phase. You cannot correct a dog for not performing an excercise that you have never taught him. Again there is nothing you cannot acomplish without the use of an e-collar if you have the knowlege.


We are talking about using the e-collar in the correction and proofing phase. Again, an e-collar correction is no more harsh than that delivered by other tools such as pinch collar, chain, or even a flat collar correction.


----------



## Gillian Schuler

The flat collar is probably the most used collar by all dog owners but it's probably the only one that you can twist around to cut off the dog's air supply without much strength or effort.


----------



## Anna Kasho

Lisa Maze said:


> Anna Kasho said:
> 
> 
> 
> Are you saying that everyone using an e-collar trains with the escape method?
> QUOTE]
> 
> 
> Okay, I'll bite...how is the e-collar used other than escape/avoidance? Specifically, I mean to teach a behavior not to create arousal (such as in nicking in the blind to stimulate barking?)
> 
> I would love to hear how it is used other than as a aversives stimulus in negative reinforcement/positive punishment.
> 
> Yes, I do use the e-collar, yes I agree every high level team in every sport I play in has used one at some point and no I am not trying to take a moral high ground.
> 
> Lisa
> 
> 
> 
> I use the stim as a "no" marker, as an aversive, mostly.
> 
> When I asked that, I was responding to where Mike said "You cannot correct a dog for not performing an excercise that you have never taught him". I meant, the difference between stimming the dog and shutting off the stim when he does the desired behavior (escape training, negative reinforcement), vs using the e-collar in the proofing phase, the same way as a leash correction (positive punishment). I can see his problem with #1, I don't see that the same applies to #2.
> "
> I've used it paired with a command, but I suppose that would fall in the category of creating arousal? The dogs already knew what to do, it just worked to speed them up. Havoc got a very quick recall that way, when pager or nick paired with voice command was his cue to get to me in under 3 seconds to get his ball. Not really an aversive since it's part of his cue to get a reward, and he looks forward to that, but I don't know what else to call it.
> 
> I have heard of conditioning the pager or nick as a positive marker or a release, for the teaching phase, but have not tried it yet.
Click to expand...


----------



## Anna Kasho

Anne Vaini said:


> I have not tried this, only from not having opportunity (yet). I would like to retrain a deaf dog that has already been trained that a "page" or "vibrate" means "knock-it-off-or-get-shocked."
> 
> I would set the e-collar very low (find lowest working stim and go a bit lower than that) and load the stim as a "yes" marker.


Something interesting I learned from pairing the stim with the command, is that all my dogs feel it at somewhere between 7 and 13 (Dogtra 1700) which is way below the level at which they show any reaction... "Working level" determined in the usual way, by slowly increacing the power and waiting for a small reaction, puts my mals somewhere between 20-35, Candy at 15-28, Inka at 45-60 (she may be just dumb or stubborn, or it's the stoic chow thing - I only wish she had that much tolerance for ear cleaning and nail trims...:-? )


----------



## susan tuck

Mike charatin said:


> I agree you nailed it. ALMOST every competitor. The good ones under proper instruction don't = better dogs.


I'm with Kyle, I would be very interested to know which ones you feel are the "good ones".


----------



## Kyle Sprag

susan tuck said:


> I'm with Kyle, I would be very interested to know which ones you feel are the "good ones".


Don't hold your breath, this same ole has been Bla Bla Bla for years. Funny how the subject dies when you ask WHO! =; =; =; :lol: :lol:


----------



## Mike charatin

Kyle Sprag said:


> Don't hold your breath, this same ole has been Bla Bla Bla for years. Funny how the subject dies when you ask WHO! =; =; =; :lol: :lol:


I guess we will agree to disagree. I myself have been to a regional championship only for the obedience portion.GSDCA-WDA 2005 MIDWEST REGIONAL SCHUTZHUND CHAMPIONSHIP SV JUDGE RAINO FLUEGGE.We received top obedience and traffic assurance resulting in an exemplary BH. I have never used an e-collar on my dogs. Theres one.


----------



## Mike charatin

susan tuck said:


> We are talking about using the e-collar in the correction and proofing phase. Again, an e-collar correction is no more harsh than that delivered by other tools such as pinch collar, chain, or even a flat collar correction.


When you talk about the correction phase it is not about the severity of the correction but rather the loss of conection with your dog as well as leash munipulation.Remember your dog feels everything through the leash and proper leash handling results in proper exacution of the excercise.This is after the dog has been motavationally brought through the learning phase.


----------



## susan tuck

Okay, first off, congrats on obtaining your BH, but seriously, who are the top level competitors you know that never use e-collars?


----------



## Lisa Maze

Anna Kasho said:


> Lisa Maze said:
> 
> 
> 
> I use the stim as a "no" marker, as an aversive, mostly.
> 
> When I asked that, I was responding to where Mike said "You cannot correct a dog for not performing an excercise that you have never taught him". I meant, the difference between stimming the dog and shutting off the stim when he does the desired behavior (escape training, negative reinforcement), vs using the e-collar in the proofing phase, the same way as a leash correction (positive punishment). I can see his problem with #1, I don't see that the same applies to #2.
> "
> I've used it paired with a command, but I suppose that would fall in the category of creating arousal? The dogs already knew what to do, it just worked to speed them up. Havoc got a very quick recall that way, when pager or nick paired with voice command was his cue to get to me in under 3 seconds to get his ball. Not really an aversive since it's part of his cue to get a reward, and he looks forward to that, but I don't know what else to call it.
> 
> I have heard of conditioning the pager or nick as a positive marker or a release, for the teaching phase, but have not tried it yet.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> All of the above with exception of using the pager/nick as a bridge are examples of "escape" training. The only difference is the dog's education level when we start using the e-collar for this type of training.
> 
> Other than occasionally, I too use the e-collar only with behaviors the dog already "knows" to add reliablity, consistency or speed. In this case I overlap the e-collar with the collar and leash correction until the dog shows me he understands how to turn off the e-collar stim without undue emotional upset then I go to e-collar only.
> 
> One of my pet peeves is e-collar trainers using "euphamisms" to make it seem like they are doing something new and unusual with the tool. Something that now makes it okay for all those previously morally opposed to it to now start using. Here I am not talking about your "average Joe" but the new era of electrified KMODT's that use the e-collar from start to finish and travel the country selling their snake oil.
> 
> I have had a few discussions about using the e-collar as other than an aversive stimulus but other than with deaf dogs, I cannot see where another tool would not serve just as well (such as using clicker as a bridge instead of conditioning a "nick" to server as one.)
> 
> Lisa
Click to expand...


----------



## Geoff Empey

Mike charatin said:


> I guess we will agree to disagree. I myself have been to a regional championship only for the obedience portion.GSDCA-WDA 2005 MIDWEST REGIONAL SCHUTZHUND CHAMPIONSHIP SV JUDGE RAINO FLUEGGE.We received top obedience and traffic assurance resulting in an exemplary BH. I have never used an e-collar on my dogs. Theres one.


Congrats on the BH ... But this to me is not a great example of a title that has obtained without the use of a e-collar. To me a BH is an obedience and temperment test, for sure not a working title like a SchH1. If you can do a AKC CD and CGC as long as you know the patterns of the BH's heeling patterns practice long downs and fire off a gun during training it is a given. 

I think where they were going is SchH3 dogs at a National or World level if they were not trained with an e-collar. 

Again though congrats on your BH.


----------



## Lou Castle

Mike charatin said:


> I use all motivational training for foundation work


I have no idea what "motivational training" means these days as so many people use the term in various ways. When I give a dog an Estim, he's "motivated" to perform to shut it off. So in the interest of clarity, can you describe just what you mean please. 



Mike charatin said:


> no matter how low of a stim you use its still a negative in the dogs eyes and at an eairly stage of the dogs development they do not need negatives only positives.


It doesn’t sound as if you're using the words "negative" and "positive" as they're used in OC rather as they're used by those who favor the so-called "kinder, gentler methods." Is that the case? 



Mike charatin said:


> I have trained with national level helpers who use the e-collar as well as a few reputable groups who do seminars on e-collar training and have found that there dogs are just not as good due to the problems that e-collars create.


It's quite rare these days to find national level champions in any sport where precision and reliability are required that have not used Ecollars in some form in their training.


----------



## Lou Castle

Anna Kasho said:


> Are you saying that everyone using an e-collar trains with the escape method?


As long as you are using the Ecollar as an aversive, you're using an escape method. The dog is performing to avoid or escape the discomfort. BTW the term "avoidance" is used differently in Ecollar work than in the rest of dog training. The same is true when any aversive is applied.


----------



## Lou Castle

Mike charatin said:


> When you talk about the correction phase it is not about the severity of the correction but rather the loss of conection with your dog as well as leash munipulation.


Perhaps you have seen it done differently, and this is leading you down this path, but I prefer to use the leash for guidance during the early phases of Ecollar work. thus, there's no "loss of connection [or] manipulation."


----------



## Lou Castle

Lisa Maze said:


> Okay, I'll bite...how is the e-collar used other than escape/avoidance? Specifically, I mean to teach a behavior not to create arousal (such as in nicking in the blind to stimulate barking?)


The Ecollar is used to teach in this article. Http://loucastle.com/recall.htm But it's still escape/avoidance. 



Lisa Maze said:


> I would love to hear how it is used other than as a aversives stimulus in negative reinforcement/positive punishment.


There are a few people who are using it as +R. They've conditioned the dog, using low level stim, in the same way that a clicker is "loaded." Buzz-treat, buzz-treat, until the dog makes the association. They still use higher levels of stim as an aversive.


----------



## Lou Castle

Anna Kasho said:


> Something interesting I learned from pairing the stim with the command, is that all my dogs feel it at somewhere between 7 and 13 (Dogtra 1700) which is way below the level at which they show any reaction...


I know I'm missing something here but how do you know that your dogs feel the stim if they don't show any reaction?


----------



## Kyle Sprag

Mike charatin said:


> I guess we will agree to disagree. I myself have been to a regional championship only for the obedience portion.GSDCA-WDA 2005 MIDWEST REGIONAL SCHUTZHUND CHAMPIONSHIP SV JUDGE RAINO FLUEGGE.We received top obedience and traffic assurance resulting in an exemplary BH. I have never used an e-collar on my dogs. Theres one.


LOL, Umm OK.

You made the comment, care to back it up now?


----------



## Anna Kasho

Lou Castle said:


> I know I'm missing something here but how do you know that your dogs feel the stim if they don't show any reaction?


Trained response. Say I'm testing the working level with Havoc, as you describe, except I use nick instead of constant stim. I'll start seeing the muscle twitch, blink, or ear twitch at maybe level 20-25. That is with him laying or sitting relaxed somewhere, no cue. That's the level I use for a correction. Where I've paired with a command, where nick is part of the cue for recall or nick is paired with sit to mean "right there in that spot" to get the reward, he responds at level 8. When there's a reward involved, he pays attention to the levels he first feels the nick.


----------



## Anna Kasho

Lisa Maze said:


> All of the above with exception of using the pager/nick as a bridge are examples of "escape" training. The only difference is the dog's education level when we start using the e-collar for this type of training.
> 
> Other than occasionally, I too use the e-collar only with behaviors the dog already "knows" to add reliablity, consistency or speed. In this case I overlap the e-collar with the collar and leash correction until the dog shows me he understands how to turn off the e-collar stim without undue emotional upset then I go to e-collar only.


Ah. It's just different terminology than what I was taught, then. I was taught that "escape training" was the specific name for the method where you turn on the stim and the dog learns to perform the command to turn it off. Not the one where nick/stim was used the same way as a quick leash correction.

The was you describe it, voice "no" and leash corrections also fall under escape training, since the dog is working to escape/avoid being corrected.


----------



## Lisa Maze

Anna Kasho said:


> Ah. It's just different terminology than what I was taught, then. I was taught that "escape training" was the specific name for the method where you turn on the stim and the dog learns to perform the command to turn it off. Not the one where nick/stim was used the same way as a quick leash correction.
> 
> The was you describe it, voice "no" and leash corrections also fall under escape training, since the dog is working to escape/avoid being corrected.



Yes, that is correct if the dog is working to escape/avoid the collar the verbal "no" or collar correction.

My pet peeve is not with individuals using less than accurate descriptions of the use of the e-collar but with people trying to sell the product or their method by purposely deceiving by inventing a new "name" name for what they are doing.

Thus far, I am grateful that Lou Castle has been accurate and honest in his descriptions of what the e-collar does.

Lisa


----------



## Connie Sutherland

Anna Kasho said:


> I was taught that "escape training" was the specific name for the method where you turn on the stim and the dog learns to perform the command to turn it off. ..


Me too. Like this for the recall:

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"Let him wander out to the end of the Flexi and then press the continuous button. .... No matter what he does, use the leash to gently pull him towards you. As soon as he starts to walk towards you, that is, he takes 4–5 steps in response to the pulling pressure of the Flexi, release the button."
from http://loucastle.com/recall.htm

Exactly as Lou says above, that is escape/avoidance training.

Using the stim only as a correction (the dog has been taught the recall, taken it to various venues, and distraction-proofed, etc.) when the dog ignores the recall in favor of an extra-enticing distraction is not, to me, escape training. 
[/FONT]


Lou Castle said:


> As long as you are using the Ecollar as an aversive, you're using an escape method.


[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] 
How are these two uses differentiated from each other? 

I agree: [/FONT]


Lisa Maze said:


> ... Thus far, I am grateful that Lou Castle has been accurate and honest in his descriptions of what the e-collar does. ... Lisa


[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] 
[/FONT]


----------



## Michelle Reusser

Howard Gaines III said:


> Well Lee if not doing ebay sounds bad, I don't have nor do I know how to use a cellphone! A throw back to cave dwellers...


Sounds like Howard needs a Jitterbug! LMFAO :lol:


----------



## Lou Castle

Anna Kasho said:


> Trained response. Say I'm testing the working level with Havoc, as you describe, except I use nick instead of constant stim. I'll start seeing the muscle twitch, blink, or ear twitch at maybe level 20-25. That is with him laying or sitting relaxed somewhere, no cue. That's the level I use for a correction. Where I've paired with a command, where nick is part of the cue for recall or nick is paired with sit to mean "right there in that spot" to get the reward, he responds at level 8. When there's a reward involved, he pays attention to the levels he first feels the nick.


Sorry. I’m still not getting it. How do you know that he feels the nick at the level 8?


----------



## Lou Castle

Connie Sutherland said:


> Using the stim only as a correction (the dog has been taught the recall, taken it to various venues, and distraction-proofed, etc.) *when the dog ignores the recall in favor of an extra-enticing distraction is not, to me, escape training. * [Emphasis added]


When the dog ignores the recall in favor of a distraction you press the button (if using continuous or start nicking) When the dog complies with the command you release the button (if using continuous, or stop giving nicks). He's performed to escape the discomfort of the stim; hence, escape training. 

The term "avoidance training" usually means something a bit different. After giving the dog stims all the time during the initial phase of training, at some point you give the command but don't give a stim. The dog thinks (Yes I know I'm anthropomorphizing) that he performed so well, so fast, so precisely (pick one or all) that HE BEAT the stim. He's avoided it completely, hence, avoidance training. 

In escape, the stim comes, in avoidance, it does not.


----------



## Mike charatin

susan tuck said:


> Okay, first off, congrats on obtaining your BH, but seriously, who are the top level competitors you know that never use e-collars?


First off thank you . I am not a name dropper nor is this a cop out I know a few people who compete here in chicago that never use an e-collar, do you really feel that there is not one person anywere that competes at a national level / or higher that does not use an e-collar?


----------



## Mike charatin

Geoff Empey said:


> Congrats on the BH ... But this to me is not a great example of a title that has obtained without the use of a e-collar. To me a BH is an obedience and temperment test, for sure not a working title like a SchH1. If you can do a AKC CD and CGC as long as you know the patterns of the BH's heeling patterns practice long downs and fire off a gun during training it is a given.
> 
> I think where they were going is SchH3 dogs at a National or World level if they were not trained with an e-collar.
> 
> Again though congrats on your BH.


Thank you. Is it just me or does no one else know of anyone who has received a schutzhund 3 at least at national level without the use of an e-collar? Thanks again.


----------



## Gillian Schuler

Mike,

To be "against" something, is to have tried it and to have found it lacking. I appreciate that you don't want to use the e-collar, but to assume that a number of people have not used it and "reached the top" in nationals is naive maybe. I posed the same question in our club and no one confirmed it. I can't officially use it here but I have Helmut Raiser's video on using the e- collar for training which is very stimulating. I have absolutely no problem with it - I find it is far more humane for canines than yanking on a collar to correct. I know there is an error-free training method which would be divine, but have you achieved this? It often depends on the dog - just motivational would not "do" for all dogs and I add, "thank goodness". 

To consequently say, that the e-collar is not necessary is in my mind "not on". To consequently say that "only motivational methods" will bring success is also "not on". To accuse all trainers of laziness by using the e-collar has no real anchor. I'm still working on my GSDs to effect the preciseness I need for SchH and am encountering problems in the OB which I never encountered before when working the Briard even when pinch collars were required but the Briard was more like the Malinois when it came to obedience.

I am open to all methods, be they electronic, manual, verbal, clicking (20% but maybe I'm missing something), just motivational - the success tells it's own story.

You can choke a dog on various collars but on the e-collar??

Maybe a little more openness on both sides wouldn't be amiss.


----------



## susan tuck

Mike charatin said:


> First off thank you . I am not a name dropper nor is this a cop out I know a few people who compete here in chicago that never use an e-collar, do you really feel that there is not one person anywere that competes at a national level / or higher that does not use an e-collar?


You are the one who stated GOOD trainers don't use e-collars and all of us that use them are "lazy". How is it "name dropping" to tell us what world class trainers don't use e-collars? 

If you are not familiar with how to use an e-collar properly and choose not to use one that's fine, no one has a problem with that. I do take issue with you making blanket statements about trainers being "lazy" or "bad" for using a tool you are not familiar with. [-X


----------



## Konnie Hein

Gillian Schuler said:


> To be "against" something, is to have tried it and to have found it lacking.


Faulty logic here, Gillian. I am against murdering people, but I've never tried it. I can be against the use of a whip on my horse, but I've never tried it. And, I also can be against the e-collar (which I'm not really) without trying it.

That being said, I think the e-collar is a good tool when used properly for a variety of situations.

If Mike doesn't want to use it, then so be it. He's entitled to his opinion. He is even entitled to think those of us who use it are cruel. I _do_ think it would be helpful to him to learn more about it and have an open mind.


----------



## Ian Forbes

Konnie Hein said:


> If Mike doesn't want to use it, then so be it. He's entitled to his opinion. He is even entitled to think those of us who use it are cruel. I _do_ think it would be helpful to him to learn more about it and have an open mind.


Agreed.

I have no problem with people not using an e-collar. People trained dogs just fine before they were invented (same goes for clickers, pinch collars etc.).

I also think everyone is entitled to an opinion. However, opinions are normally given more weight if they are based on facts, personal experience and empirical eveidence.


----------



## Kyle Sprag

I couldn't care less if Mike is affraid of the e-collar, just simply asking him to back up his BS.

"I agree you nailed it. ALMOST every competitor. The good ones under proper instruction don't = better dogs."


WHO are the good ones and the better dogs, that is besides your self of course. :razz:


----------



## Mike charatin

Konnie Hein said:


> Faulty logic here, Gillian. I am against murdering people, but I've never tried it. I can be against the use of a whip on my horse, but I've never tried it. And, I also can be against the e-collar (which I'm not really) without trying it.
> 
> That being said, I think the e-collar is a good tool when used properly for a variety of situations.
> 
> If Mike doesn't want to use it, then so be it. He's entitled to his opinion. He is even entitled to think those of us who use it are cruel. I _do_ think it would be helpful to him to learn more about it and have an open mind.


First off I would like to say thank you for the kind words sincerly.The fact is I never said people who use the e-collar are cruel. I said they are lazy. There is nothing you cannot do with a dog without the use of an e-collar. I have been to demonstrations/training clubs and even worked with national level competitors who use this tool, so I do have knowlege of what it is all about.These dogs are at the top of there game and very nice. I have also seen the same level produced by handlers that did not use the e-collar even though it may have taken them a bit longer to get the disired effect. It has been done before at least at a national level and this is a fact. There are exceptions to every rule and some dogs maynot have any undesiriable traits from the use of this, but it has been my experiance that more have shown negative's than positives.Percition at what ever portion of any sport is cruetial but what are you willing to sacrafice.Great topic .Thanks.


----------



## Mike charatin

Kyle Sprag said:


> I couldn't care less if Mike is affraid of the e-collar, just simply asking him to back up his BS.
> 
> "I agree you nailed it. ALMOST every competitor. The good ones under proper instruction don't = better dogs."
> 
> 
> WHO are the good ones and the better dogs, that is besides your self of course. :razz:


Kyle those who do not continue to learn are stagnent and will never progress. A good trainer always keeps an open mind, I am of coarse asuming you are a trainer.I personally do not know anyone who has acheived a world title. I can however speak of national competitors who I have trained with. Don't be so closed minded to think that it is imposible for someone to acheive a schutzhund 3 at a national level or higher without the use of an e-collar. Sounds to me like you are using this tool as a cruch.](*,)


----------



## Ian Forbes

Mike charatin said:


> The fact is I never said people who use the e-collar are cruel. I said they are lazy.


Well that's OK then....:roll:


----------



## Ian Forbes

Mike charatin said:


> Kyle those who do not continue to learn are stagnent and will never progress. A good trainer always keeps an open mind,


Instead of just writing this, you should maybe try to abide by it....:-\"


----------



## Gillian Schuler

Konnie Hein said:


> Faulty logic here, Gillian. I am against murdering people, but I've never tried it. I can be against the use of a whip on my horse, but I've never tried it. And, I also can be against the e-collar (which I'm not really) without trying it.


OK - someone can be against something without trying it, but to give opinions on the people who do use it is a bit unfair. I know a number people who use it and definitely not out of laziness. I know a very good trainer who tries each device out on himself first. His colleagues give him theirs to try out too[-X 

Mike Charaitin:

It would be interesting to know if there is anyone at top level in dog sports who hasn't used an e-collar but, it may not be so easy to prove he or she hasn't. The air at the top is very thin......


----------



## Lou Castle

Mike charatin said:


> First off I would like to say thank you for the kind words sincerly.The fact is I never said people who use the e-collar are cruel. I said they are lazy.


Why do you think this? 



Mike charatin said:


> There is nothing you cannot do with a dog without the use of an e-collar.


Then why is it that most of the top competitors in the world in any field where precision and reliability are key, use them. 

Here's a question that I always ask those who oppose the Ecollar. Your dog is running towards a busy street and is ignoring your commands. What do you do? 



Mike charatin said:


> I have been to demonstrations/training clubs and even worked with national level competitors who use this tool, so I do have knowlege of what it is all about.


I’m gonna have to disagree. You can watch people eat ice cream all you want. but until you taste it yourself you have no idea "what it I all about." You'll have some idea of it's color, it's creaminess, it's coldness but absolutely NO IDEA of it's taste, the reason that people eat it. 



Mike charatin said:


> These dogs are at the top of there game and very nice.


Interesting that you describe them as "very nice." It seems to be condemnation by faint praise. But perhaps I'm reading in there. 



Mike charatin said:


> I have also seen the same level produced by handlers that did not use the e-collar even though it may have taken them a bit longer to get the disired effect.


Why is something that takes longer, better? 



Mike charatin said:


> It has been done before at least at a national level and this is a fact. There are exceptions to every rule and some dogs maynot have any undesiriable traits from the use of this, but it has been my experiance that more have shown negative's than positives.


Can you be specific please?


----------



## Lou Castle

Mike charatin said:


> Sounds to me like you are using this tool as a cruch.


What does it mean to "use an Ecollar as a crutch?"


----------



## susan tuck

Mike charatin said:


> Kyle those who do not continue to learn are stagnent and will never progress. A good trainer always keeps an open mind, I am of coarse asuming you are a trainer.I personally do not know anyone who has acheived a world title. I can however speak of national competitors who I have trained with. Don't be so closed minded to think that it is imposible for someone to acheive a schutzhund 3 at a national level or higher without the use of an e-collar. Sounds to me like you are using this tool as a cruch.](*,)


AHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!! Kyle: Perhaps you will be lucky enough to one day attend a seminar given by Mike. Then you may have a chance at learning how to train dogs. After all,


----------



## susan tuck

Sorry, I timed out. This one handed typing sucks! I wasn't going to post on this thread anymore, but then I read what you said to Kyle.

Anyway, Mike I'm sorry, but your last post to Kyle made me laugh so hard milk came out of my nose!!!!:lol: :lol: :lol: 

Kyle isn't going to toot his own horn and maybe you don't know, but his current dog has attained both his MRIII and his FRIII. These titles require a little more work than the BH. For you to first call him lazy then to say he uses the e-collar as a crutch is absurd! You must realize it's impossible for you to actually know whether or not someone is good, bad, lazy or indifferent without ever having seen them train, let alone reached their level yourself.

Also Mike, NO ONE said it is impossible to put a schHIII on a dog without an e-collar. You said GOOD trainers don't use e-collars. We have merely been patiently waiting for you to back up your statement.


----------



## Kadi Thingvall

Lou Castle said:


> Why is something that takes longer, better?


I think this is a very important question in the whole e-collar debate. And yes, I do use one, on some of my dogs. Why is it that people who don't use collars claim people who do are lazy, because after all there is a way to do the same thing without a collar, it just may take a lot longer? Why does doing something in a more efficient manner make you lazy? 

I would also be curious who the top level competitors are who have never used an ecollar. And I'd up the stakes. Since it was indicated the dogs who have never had a collar put on them are the better dogs, just being at a national/world level competition isn't enough, the dog/handler need to have placed in the top 3 spots in the trial they were at. Because those are truly the top level competitors. If the non-ecollar dog came in 24th in a world level competition, that may make him better then many of the dogs who never even got to that competition, but there were still 23 "e-collar dogs" who are better then him.


----------



## Lisa Maze

Ah, c'mon admit it. We e-collar trainers are lazy. Why run down the field and kick the snot out of my dog when I can just push a button? Anyone see field dog training before the e-collar? Slingshots, rock salt fired out of a shotgun or just an ol' fashioned a** whooping. Guess those good ol' boys just got tired of all that running.

Just a small personal list of National level dogs who have worn the e-collar a time or two:

Feist du Loups du Soleil AWDF 2004 5th overall and High Protection
USMRA 2008 National Championship 2nd overall

Jackson du Loups du Soleil USMRA 2008 National Champion

Mowgli du Loups du Soleil AWDF 2007 3rd overall, HOT 2007 5th overall

Joker du Loups du Soleil AWDF 2008 HIT, North American 2008 HIT
(that was 2 National Ch. in one month for a dog handled by a 22yr old and trained by a 19 year old)

L'Simba du Loups du Soleil FMBB 2007 World Team 8th place

There are more in our family who have acheived great things with the use of the e-collar. Anyone familiar with our breeding/training program knows the e-collar is just one tool and is used only after the dog has acheived fluency using high arousal reward based training and with the overlap of traditional collar corrections. 

Oh, and a few on the above list are lazy 

I know the training history of each and every dog on this list and I can assure you the e-collar was used just for clean up work such as tightening turns around blinds, perfecting motion exercises etc. All of these dogs/trainers were performing National level work prior to the introduction of the e-collar. But with the price of gas and airfare these days they didn't just want to play at the National level but to actually bring home a trophy.

Lisa


----------



## Anna Kasho

Rock salt??  

Now I KNOW I've been missing out on the coveted old-school training secrets.

"Git the gun, maw - the dawg didn't "out" agin..."

Ahhh, the good old days...:lol:


----------



## Kyle Sprag

susan tuck said:


> Sorry, I timed out. This one handed typing sucks! I wasn't going to post on this thread anymore, but then I read what you said to Kyle.
> 
> Anyway, Mike I'm sorry, but your last post to Kyle made me laugh so hard milk came out of my nose!!!!:lol: :lol: :lol:
> 
> Kyle isn't going to toot his own horn and maybe you don't know, but his current dog has attained both his MRIII and his FRIII. These titles require a little more work than the BH. For you to first call him lazy then to say he uses the e-collar as a crutch is absurd! You must realize it's impossible for you to actually know whether or not someone is good, bad, lazy or indifferent without ever having seen them train, let alone reached their level yourself.
> 
> Also Mike, NO ONE said it is impossible to put a schHIII on a dog without an e-collar. You said GOOD trainers don't use e-collars. We have merely been patiently waiting for you to back up your statement.


 
In all fairness I did not train this dog from a pup. He was sitting in a kennel for 2+ years and I took him out of Moth Balls worked with him training not teaching. What I do know is his foundation training in France allmost RUINED him, no ecollar just the old Yank and Crank Do or DIE.

For this dog the ecollar is the tool of choice, it is not personal and he understands it. The idea is to work and train to where you don't have to use it. He will not respond well at all to physical corrections anymore.

People should use the tool/s that work best for their individual animals


----------



## Mike charatin

susan tuck said:


> Sorry, I timed out. This one handed typing sucks! I wasn't going to post on this thread anymore, but then I read what you said to Kyle.
> 
> Anyway, Mike I'm sorry, but your last post to Kyle made me laugh so hard milk came out of my nose!!!!:lol: :lol: :lol:
> 
> Kyle isn't going to toot his own horn and maybe you don't know, but his current dog has attained both his MRIII and his FRIII. These titles require a little more work than the BH. For you to first call him lazy then to say he uses the e-collar as a crutch is absurd! You must realize it's impossible for you to actually know whether or not someone is good, bad, lazy or indifferent without ever having seen them train, let alone reached their level yourself.
> 
> Also Mike, NO ONE said it is impossible to put a schHIII on a dog without an e-collar. You said GOOD trainers don't use e-collars. We have merely been patiently waiting for you to back up your statement.


Susan, when was the e-collar invented? Do you believe the dogs of today are better than the dogs of the past? I am pretty sure that the e-collar was not invented yet when schutzhund was created. I also believe that you can sharpen up your dog with the tightness of the blind or any other problem you may have without the use of an e-collar.I am merley speaking of what I have observed. I think the trainer who see's there is a problem and works to correct the problem without just pushing a button is a better trainer who also creates a better dog JMHO. I know there is skills involved in training with an e-collar blah blah blah the fact is there is always another way it may take a little longer but the end result may be a little better.To wrap this up if you like it so be it. I prefer not to use it. Thanks for the debate.


----------



## Mike charatin

Kyle Sprag said:


> In all fairness I did not train this dog from a pup. He was sitting in a kennel for 2+ years and I took him out of Moth Balls worked with him training not teaching. What I do know is his foundation training in France allmost RUINED him, no ecollar just the old Yank and Crank Do or DIE.
> 
> For this dog the ecollar is the tool of choice, it is not personal and he understands it. The idea is to work and train to where you don't have to use it. He will not respond well at all to physical corrections anymore.
> 
> People should use the tool/s that work best for their individual animals


Fair enough. Kyle I wish you the best and thank you for the debate.


----------



## susan tuck

All any of us have said is use what you want to on your own dog, but don't be so foolish as to call people lazy button pushers when you have no idea how to use the tool.


----------



## Gillian Schuler

Mike charatin;80759I am merley speaking of what I have observed. I think the trainer who see's there is a problem and works to correct the problem without just pushing a button is a better trainer who also creates a better dog JMHO. I know there is skills involved in training with an e-collar blah blah blah the fact is there is always another way it may take a little longer but the end result may be a little better.To wrap this up if you like it so be it. I prefer not to use it. Thanks for the debate.[/quote said:


> This is contradictory - when a problem crops up both the non-e-collar user and the e-collar user have to put on their thinking caps. It may look like the trainer is "just pushing a button" from mere observation but any correction needs thought before being put into practice.
> 
> What might be "the other way"? Correction is correction.
> 
> The better dog is created by the better trainer and the better trainer, in my opinion, is the one that doesn't reject something he's never used on the grounds that "the other way" is better.
> 
> On the other hand, I appreciate that you prefer not to use it.


----------

