# Testing in Traffic problem



## Bart Karmich (Jul 16, 2010)

In section B, there is a part where the dog is to remain indifferent to cars.

_3. Encounter with cars 
The handler goes passed several cars with his on-leashed dog. One of the car’s engine will be started. With another the door will be slammed shut. While the dog and handler continue, a car will stop next to them. The window will be put down and the handler will be asked for information. The dog is to either “sit” or “down” at the command of the handler. The dog is to remain calm and neutral towards cars and all other traffic noises._


I need to solve a problem that happens if the car drives away. It triggers my dog to chase it. He's totally sure around cars, noises and so on. The problem is some cars he wants to chase or race (because if he's ahead he will try to beat it). If they just drive by, nothing. But having the driver stop and chat or the engine start and then go will trigger him. He will act calm on the lead in sit or down, until the car starts to actually move away. Then he will launch at it.

My first thought is just to kill this with +P but I like to look for a better way. I thought about trying to desensitize him to the trigger but I'm afraid that by rehearsing it without letting him go at the car, I will actually build frustration. Ideas?


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Bart Karmich said:


> In section B, there is a part where the dog is to remain indifferent to cars.
> 
> _3. Encounter with cars
> The handler goes passed several cars with his on-leashed dog. One of the car’s engine will be started. With another the door will be slammed shut. While the dog and handler continue, a car will stop next to them. The window will be put down and the handler will be asked for information. The dog is to either “sit” or “down” at the command of the handler. The dog is to remain calm and neutral towards cars and all other traffic noises._
> ...


I had a slight issue that way with my male Dutchie. He was a 7 month old pup. I found a busy stop light in town and planted us on the corner for 20 minutes a session. After a few days of doing that he got sick of me jerking his head off when he went to chase. Not a real scientific method but effective.


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## Bart Karmich (Jul 16, 2010)

Lee H Sternberg said:


> ... me jerking his head off


So you punished him with a collar correction, not just let him self-correct on a prong or something?

My dog is soft. If I use a harness for safety but let him self-correct on a prong he would get the picture. I'm not sure how many sessions it would take to cause extinction of the behavior under circumstances without the collar. I figure at least 8 or 9 tries but no more than 20.

If I actually correct him myself with the prong (I use the live ring and pop the leash) he will cry and bite my hand with his little inhibited bite that doesn't even hurt, and roll on his back. If I use stim he will quit like the self-correction, not sure how many times it would take to work without the collar.

Is +P really my best option here?


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Bart Karmich said:


> So you punished him with a collar correction, not just let him self-correct on a prong or something?
> 
> My dog is soft. If I use a harness for safety but let him self-correct on a prong he would get the picture. I'm not sure how many sessions it would take to cause extinction of the behavior under circumstances without the collar. I figure at least 8 or 9 tries but no more than 20.
> 
> ...


Choker and a bit of slack leash and a hard jerk when he ran out of leash. I never even looked at the dog! Probably not for the always positive crowd but like I said it worked for me and the dog.

Others may have their own thoughts. I just do what works for my situation.


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## Jayna Champion (Jul 7, 2012)

you could try to accustom him to that sort of traffic w/o harsh corrections by simply setting up at a distance to a busy (or even not-so busy, depending on his reaction) intersection. But don't set up close to it. Try and find one where you can be a distance from the road, like in a field. Get him far enough away to where he does not react. Every time he looks up at you, reward him (treat, toy, tug, whatever). Then slowly move closer to the intersection. Don't make a big deal about it. This process could take a long time, or a short one. If he starts to really react, then you are too close, and you need to move back and start over. If he does react, you can try waiting till he looks to you for instruction, and then reward. If done correctly, he should look to you for direction whenever he hears a car accelerate. 8)


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## john simmons (Jan 20, 2010)

If the car starting is the trigger, put him in situations where cars can be started and don't move them. Use your car, friends, clubs etc.... As soon as the car starts, mark it if you use markers and play tug or whatever will KEEP his focus on you. Maybe even heel away from the car with more tug or treat...


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## john simmons (Jan 20, 2010)

Reread post- same applies to the other triggers as well...


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

The next time you hear about some judge that does some wacky shit at a BH, remember this thread. The BH part 2 is a test of the dog's temperament., not the training. If the judges sees through all of this training don't be surprised if they throw a monkey wrench at you....literally and figuratively.


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## Marcelo Villanueva (Apr 8, 2012)

Bart Karmich said:


> So you punished him with a collar correction, not just let him self-correct on a prong or something?
> 
> My dog is soft. If I use a harness for safety but let him self-correct on a prong he would get the picture. I'm not sure how many sessions it would take to cause extinction of the behavior under circumstances without the collar. I figure at least 8 or 9 tries but no more than 20.
> 
> ...


 
What is +P?

Tell your dog "no" & correct it, and correct his nipping too, & any unwanted behaviours; then when the dog stops acting up, pet your dog & tell him he/she is a good dog.

Don't be afrad to set boundaries. Your dog will appreciate the leadership, soft dog or not.


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## Tracey Hughes (Jul 13, 2007)

Positive punishment is something that is applied to reduce a behavior. The term "positive" often confuses people, because in common terms "positive" means something good, upbeat, happy, pleasant, rewarding. Remember, this is technical terminology we're using, though, so here "positive" means "added" or "started". Also keep in mind that in these terms, it is not the animal that is "punished" (treated badly to pay for some moral wrong), but the behavior that is "punished" (in other words, reduced). Positive punishment, when applied correctly, is the most effective way to stop unwanted behaviors. Its main flaw is that it does not teach specific alternative behaviors.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

The section you inserted above appears to be pretty clear and the solution appears to be as well. Control or rather a solid sit/down should produce exactly what you are after. Unless of course you are looking to eliminate this behavior and/or desire entirely.

Perhaps too absolute for some but if any of my dogs engage in potentially dangerous behavior or that which may present a liability of sort, I will deal with it in a manner that intentionally leaves a lasting impression upon the dog that doing so is strictly verboten.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

I would use P+ (correction) like described above. 

However, if someone wanted to avoid using correction, a solution would be to train out of focus. Put your dog at heel in focus, and have somebody creep a car by at 1 mph. Reward for focus as the car begins to pass and move away.

Increase speed of the car to 15 mph. 

Then start sitting your dog at heel and side stepping away. Please backtie your dog for safety and for correction (bonus, not related to you).

Eventually you will be doing this in a long sit or down, then and out-of-sight long sit or down.

The other methods above are faster and I feel more appropriate. This will be slower but more 'appetizing' for people hesitant ot unwilling to use correction.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Nicole Stark said:


> Perhaps too absolute for some but if any of my dogs engage in potentially dangerous behavior or that which may present a liability of sort, I will deal with it in a manner that intentionally leaves a lasting impression upon the dog that doing so is strictly verboten.


Yes, absolutely. One-session imprinting.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

Bart
how is he with bikes, trikes, lawn mowers, scooters, harleys, mini atv's, go carts, golf carts, tractors and fire engines, etc ?

in what situations does he do the belly roll when corrected ?


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## Bart Karmich (Jul 16, 2010)

Tracey Hughes said:


> Positive punishment is something that is applied to reduce a behavior. The term "positive" often confuses people, because in common terms "positive" means something good, upbeat, happy, pleasant, rewarding. Remember, this is technical terminology we're using, though, so here "positive" means "added" or "started". Also keep in mind that in these terms, it is not the animal that is "punished" (treated badly to pay for some moral wrong), but the behavior that is "punished" (in other words, reduced). Positive punishment, when applied correctly, is the most effective way to stop unwanted behaviors. Its main flaw is that it does not teach specific alternative behaviors.


 
This is a really good explanation of +P and what I also believe it's best for. I think the drawbacks of +P besides that it doesn't teach the dog what to do (just what not to do) is that while we can use it to terminate unwanted behaviors, it has side-effects. The most obvious side-effect is that it can damage the relationship of the dog to the handler. The dog has to be resilient enough to handle the level of correction given without learning to show aversion to and avoidance of the handler. Hard dogs can take more +P without this effect, but with soft ones it involves more risk. The second side-effect I can think of is that the dog can form superstitions by associating the +P with other stimulus that we might not be aware of. This is especially true if you do "one session imprinting." You cannot imprint your dog in an environment that is sterile of everything but what you happen to want to target. The bottom line is some unintentional imprinting can happen.





rick smith said:


> Bart
> how is he with bikes, trikes, lawn mowers, scooters, harleys, mini atv's, go carts, golf carts, tractors and fire engines, etc ?
> 
> in what situations does he do the belly roll when corrected ?


The dog is totally environmentall stable. He is gun-sure and stick sure. I ride the bike with him all the time. He will bark at and bite the exhaust coming out of my lawn mower but doesn't care about others. He howls at sirens. All those other vehicles don't mean much to him unless they behave in the way I described. If they stop near him, within about 10 yards or less and the closer the more likely he will react, and then start up and begin to move away, he will want to leap at and chase them. I don't think he'd go for bikes or scooters. The bigger the vehicle and more noise, the more likely it is to trigger him. He goes for big diesel trucks, freight vans etc.

He does the belly roll when I pop or jerk his collar. Sometimes he'll put a paw on the hand or arm I have ahold of his leash with. He might try to mouth the hand but not always. If he thinks I'm going to win, he'll belly flop. I am pretty sure if I popped him again for this stuff, he'd pee on himself. I don't get any of this with the remote though.

I can appreciate the comment about the dog's need for leadership, but I feel like I totally dominate this dog. Sometimes I wish he'd have the balls to challenge me. I try to build his confidence to contest me in roughhousing, tug, and with soft sleeves and let him win and a little harder and harder win. That's why I'm reluctant to just knock his block off for dumb stuff.


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