# STUD Dogs in the USA (DS/Mal)



## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

What STUD dogs in the US are you using? and why? Only Malinois and DS please.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Jody Butler said:


> What STUD dogs in the US are you using? and why? Only Malinois and DS please.


I think alot of people will say that depends on the male or female, what there both strong in, what one might lack maybe a little that male or female will make up for, etc........ Of course genetics, hopely a line breeding on some strong dogs. Strong workers, 100% enviromentally, hunt / retrieve drive & bitework, papers are optional as well as sport titles in my eyes, dogs to me are based individually. Of course alot of other shit as well thats consider as far as health gos - hips,elbows, bruclerosis negative, negative fecals,negative heartworms ( dont give a shit about the silly orgs like OFA and so forth and so on - know of people that sent xrays back in and got different scores and have also heard of such stories - a experienced vet is good by me ), As far as teeth being ****ed up on one of the parents dont care about that to me just because parents teeth are broke has nothing to do with pups being born. Of course what those gentics have produced in the past if applicable, A whole lot more to that you just see with your own two eyes or hear from folks as far as the dog gos, you got to go with your gut to, I can go on forever with what I look for and hope for and look to produce, etc....... etc.........

Then theres always the fact of what I might like you might hate for what ever reason LOL, or what I'm looking to produce might be totally different then what your looking to produce, like for instance alot of people throw Rudie into the mix to try to level off the breeding from being to hard being bred to a jerk. My last litter with Angel I bred to a Rudie son to level the playing field because Angel was a mid size bitch but was a extreme bitch and was known to hang with the big boys, I also used that Rudie son to add some size because Angel was only 58 -62 and The Rudie son was almost 95lb and tall, those were just a few of the reasons I bred the two, In which turn out to be a superb litter at almost two ( knock on wood so far )


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## Michael Santana (Dec 31, 2007)

Harry Keely said:


> I think alot of people will say that depends on the male or female, what there both strong in, what one might lack maybe a little that male or female will make up for, etc........ Of course genetics, hopely a line breeding on some strong dogs. Strong workers, 100% enviromentally, hunt / retrieve drive & bitework, papers are optional as well as sport titles in my eyes, dogs to me are based individually. Of course alot of other shit as well thats consider as far as health gos - hips,elbows, bruclerosis negative, negative fecals,negative heartworms ( dont give a shit about the silly orgs like OFA and so forth and so on - know of people that sent xrays back in and got different scores and have also heard of such stories - a experienced vet is good by me ), As far as teeth being ****ed up on one of the parents dont care about that to me just because parents teeth are broke has nothing to do with pups being born. Of course what those gentics have produced in the past if applicable, A whole lot more to that you just see with your own two eyes or hear from folks as far as the dog gos, you got to go with your gut to, I can go on forever with what I look for and hope for and look to produce, etc....... etc.........
> 
> Then theres always the fact of what I might like you might hate for what ever reason LOL, or what I'm looking to produce might be totally different then what your looking to produce, like for instance alot of people throw Rudie into the mix to try to level off the breeding from being to hard being bred to a jerk. My last litter with Angel I bred to a Rudie son to level the playing field because Angel was a mid size bitch but was a extreme bitch and was known to hang with the big boys, I also used that Rudie son to add some size because Angel was only 58 -62 and The Rudie son was almost 95lb and tall, those were just a few of the reasons I bred the two, In which turn out to be a superb litter at almost two ( knock on wood so far )


Now that we have that covered...


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Michael Santana said:


> Now that we have that covered...


Oh please do add sir, what do you look for or do you have a specific one that you use no matter the female, we are all ears and waiting ( not being sarcastic ). or maybe you care to elaborate more in detail.


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## Michael Santana (Dec 31, 2007)

I got nothing.. I was just giving you a hard time.. cause I can mostly. :mrgreen:

I would like to see a nice list come together, maybe including what you think the male brings to the table with certain "types" of females.


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## Brigita Brinac (Jun 29, 2008)

Jody Butler said:


> What STUD dogs in the US are you using? and why? Only Malinois and DS please.


I'm surprised that there aren't more threads on this...very interesting.

I'm serving a 'life sentence' with Mals 

After years of research; I finally found a breeder who still believes in the old hard foundation lines and is bringing them up front...his is a hobby and he breeds strictly for the workability of this breed...

I just imported two of his female pups (same sire/different dams)...After speaking with him what his males AND females bring to the table...I went for it. I know what I have been looking/going for and what he's been 'going' for....seemed a perfect 'fusion' to maintain the work in the modern day Malinois. It will work perfectly with my lines as they are similar and we have the same goal in mind...

After my husband saw the pup's sire...he came back saying 'OK...we need to breed Mischa' to him...He said 'his videos nor his pics did him any justice'....He was a bone crusher on the field...and when it was over...the 'OFF' switch turned off and you could have a 3 yr old petting him and he loved every minute of it..To me that showed sociability and stability...But then one has to look back at his genetics (AND the females) to understand where the intensity and aggression and extreme drive is coming from...Damn NICE sire!

His name is: Vulcain Du Royaume d'Heracles

Here's a link to his two girls...one is 6 wks and the other 8....This was their first session if you could call it that...we gave them a week to adjust to their new home, food, water and then played with them for the first time just to see their first reaction to ring equipment... 

These two had no imprinting/training/shaping of behaviors...what you see is what you get....I call it 'raw' genetics, pure instinct; and both these girls could give a run for the money to most males their age...again it's about bringing certain old lines back to the front lines/generations to maintain and even contribute to the true working abilities our modern day Malinois:

Pups:
*https://skydrive.live.com/redi​r.aspx?cid=c4ebc15a9eb411a1&pa​ge=play&resid=C4EBC15A9EB411A1​%21138

* Sire during a demo in NJ:
http://youtu.be/ITVATZVbbWo

Vulcain's resume is a bit long and I'm typed out lol...but the most impressive credentialed dog I've found in NA...He is so deserving of it!

Thanks!


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## Barry Connell (Jul 25, 2010)

Brigita Brinac said:


> After years of research; I finally found a breeder who still believes in the old hard foundation lines and is bringing them up front...his is a hobby and he breeds strictly for the workability of this breed...
> 
> .......
> 
> His name is: Vulcain Du Royaume d'Heracles


OK, I am no breeder so I can't quote bloodlines, what a certain stud/bitch throws, etc. What I can tell you is that I have spent several weekends with Vulcain, his puppies from several different bitches, and a lot of time with one of his sons in our club. I am new to ring sport (as evidenced by this past weekend) but I have a pretty good history with police dogs.

I have told Rick several times that Vulcain should have been a cop dog. I realize he has titles, scores, trophies out the wazoo, but in my law enforcement world that shit doesn't matter. What matters is a dog that will NOT quit. I like a dog that can do the work with intensity and then go do a public demo with kids 15 minutes later.

Brigita, I was there when your husband picked up the one puppy and I really like that pup!!!


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## Kelly Johnson (Nov 21, 2010)

I agree he looks like he would make a great police K9! He fights HARD, but has so much control!


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Harry who is the Rudie son which you speak of? You didn't give his name or did I miss it. Who is the owner of this dog?


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Jerry Lyda said:


> Harry who is the Rudie son which you speak of? You didn't give his name or did I miss it. Who is the owner of this dog?


Pacco, hes owned by Richard and Pat Brackin of Woodruff SC, originally of Miami FL, there from Tony Guzman's original Clan that gos back decades into the dutch line dogs. Anything other that you need please feel free to ask. Tony is a member of Hans Pegge KNPV club and has competed there, as well is the owner of Rudie II amongst other dogs. He has made the comment that Pacco is one of the meanest Rudie sons that was ever produced, I have seen a good bit myself of Rudie kids and would have to agree, although I have not seen all. Hes also the father of the litter that was produced between him and Angel that produced seriosu workers so far as of now knock on wodd coming up on 2 years of age come oct.12


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

So Harry.... just out of curiosity do you find that Guzman is a ethical business man?


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

will fernandez said:


> So Harry.... just out of curiosity do you find that Guzman is a ethical business man?


You are more than welcome Will to PM me or advertise it if ya like, I on the other hand am not getting into all this again stating one way or another to start World War 5 for disputes Will, nothing personal but I am not getting that involved ever again in any shit on any forum. So that will be my last comment on anything that concerns ethics of others.:mrgreen:

Unless I am informed by a very very reliable source or have direct immediate knowledge there of which I have nothing of this on Tony Guzman from myself or others, or immediate contacts that are mutual of him here and abraod.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

so are DS and mals two distinct breeds??


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> so are DS and mals two distinct breeds??


Dutchies are nothing more than pretty striped dutch malinois, Just like a dutch black mali or dutch blue mali Peter.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

thanks Harry, seems like there is a lot of confusion out there, none more so than the amongst the breeders of these dogs - i am sure there will many who have different opinions. 

BTW i am the last person to think it makes a difference and believe breed standards have done more harm than good in general - a good dogs a good dog - screw what the bit of paper says it is.


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Harry Keely said:


> Dutchies are nothing more than pretty striped dutch malinois, Just like a dutch black mali or dutch blue mali Peter.


 I would agree with that for the most part, however there are some Dutchie lines which throw a "Dutchie" type, that being more stubborn and willful than alot of Malis.
Ebro v Leeuwen was sold to an NVBK guy who later sold him to the Belgian police. He comented that he had two Dutchies from Holland and both very far more stubborn and willful than the NVBK Malis are for instance. But I agree than within in the KNPV bloodlines, if there is alot of Malis in the lines than they will be similar to the Malis with similar lines. But if you found something heavy bred on the Buddymiejer (sp?) bloodlines they are different to a typical Mali. 
But then again a Mali that is linebred on say Duco2, is going to be very different from a typical NVBK Mali or FR Mali or IPO Mali.


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Christopher Jones said:


> Ebro v Leeuwen was sold to an NVBK guy who later sold him to the Belgian police. He comented that he had two Dutchies from Holland and both very far more stubborn and willful than the NVBK Malis are for instance. .


I can now say I agree with this :lol::lol::lol:
Although stubborn, I do feel when they learn something THEY LEARN it, although more time consuming to teach at times.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> thanks Harry, seems like there is a lot of confusion out there, none more so than the amongst the breeders of these dogs - i am sure there will many who have different opinions.
> 
> BTW i am the last person to think it makes a difference and believe breed standards have done more harm than good in general - a good dogs a good dog - screw what the bit of paper says it is.





Christopher Jones said:


> I would agree with that for the most part, however there are some Dutchie lines which throw a "Dutchie" type, that being more stubborn and willful than alot of Malis.
> Ebro v Leeuwen was sold to an NVBK guy who later sold him to the Belgian police. He comented that he had two Dutchies from Holland and both very far more stubborn and willful than the NVBK Malis are for instance. But I agree than within in the KNPV bloodlines, if there is alot of Malis in the lines than they will be similar to the Malis with similar lines. But if you found something heavy bred on the Buddymiejer (sp?) bloodlines they are different to a typical Mali.
> But then again a Mali that is linebred on say Duco2, is going to be very different from a typical NVBK Mali or FR Mali or IPO Mali.


Peter I put it in layman terms, but defently read what Chris wrote he puts it in much more educational meaning than me, thanks Chris for putting it in more clear and precise meaning:wink:, I know what I'm saying and looking at in my head just not good with putting it on paper or in this case computer, get my on the phone though and I will tear it up verbally:lol:


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Christopher Jones said:


> I would agree with that for the most part, however there are some Dutchie lines which throw a "Dutchie" type, that being more stubborn and willful than alot of Malis.
> 
> if there are dutchie lines that throw a dutchie type are there some mali lines that throw a mali type and a diutchie line that throw a mali type and mali lines that throw a dutch type.
> 
> ...


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Will, I know Guzman too and Harry that's not the dog I thought you were talking about. I've never heard of that one but then again like you I haven't seen them all.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> Christopher Jones said:
> 
> 
> > I would agree with that for the most part, however there are some Dutchie lines which throw a "Dutchie" type, that being more stubborn and willful than alot of Malis.
> ...


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Jerry Lyda said:


> Will, I know Guzman too and Harry that's not the dog I thought you were talking about. I've never heard of that one but then again like you I haven't seen them all.


Anybody that has said they seen all Jerry would be a liar, especially when there has been 100's to my knowledge, not only that Rudie senior was here in the states in Miami for awhile when Hans let him in the country, he was bred and from what I understand wasn't there was collected if he wasn't breeding:-\", Rudie was one busy doggy here in the states for is visit, he was the head four legged pimp daddy. 

Who were you referring too, black paco in Miami Beach or Paco up at Vandalia or Pacco up in east NY, obviously you weren't referring to Pacco here in Woodruff SC:lol:.


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

So many being brought in ....does anyone have a plan for breeding here in the states for there own combinations? I like that the Duco 2 blood is coming over---it would be nice to see how it does with Robby backhaus lines. Maybe one day I will be lucky enough to try my hand at breeding.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Joby Becker said:


> Peter Cavallaro said:
> 
> 
> > *There are 2 separate "breeds" on paper,*
> ...


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

a good dog is a good dog nuff said, the sooner the concept of breed registers and breed standards dissapear we will get back to the true working dog tradition.[/QUOTE Peter cavallaro]

Well put Peter, the rest was history my dear watson:lol:


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

oi Harry i respect other people's life choices but i feel uncomfortable with the "dear" reference when talking to another guy :neutral:


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> oi Harry i respect other people's life choices but i feel uncomfortable with the "dear" reference when talking to another guy :neutral:


:lol::lol::lol: Its a figure of speech

The other one was " elementary my dear watson " http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lag22Hl2RQw


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Christopher Jones said:


> I would agree with that for the most part, however there are some Dutchie lines which throw a "Dutchie" type, that being more stubborn and willful than alot of Malis.
> Ebro v Leeuwen was sold to an NVBK guy who later sold him to the Belgian police. He comented that he had two Dutchies from Holland and both very far more stubborn and willful than the NVBK Malis are for instance. But I agree than within in the KNPV bloodlines, if there is alot of Malis in the lines than they will be similar to the Malis with similar lines. But if you found something heavy bred on the Buddymiejer (sp?) bloodlines they are different to a typical Mali.
> But then again a Mali that is linebred on say Duco2, is going to be very different from a typical NVBK Mali or FR Mali or IPO Mali.


Ebro has never been sold.( or you must mean sold as a pup from us to Herman and Ilse ) He has lived his whole live with Herman and Ilse, the peolple who bought him as a pup from us. Herman is a policedoghandle,r Ebro was his K9 and they both (Herman & Ilse) train in BR.

Dick


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> Ebro has never been sold.( or you must mean sold as a pup from us to Herman and Ilse ) He has lived his whole live with Herman and Ilse, the peolple who bought him as a pup from us. Herman is a policedoghandle,r Ebro was his K9 and they both (Herman & Ilse) train in BR.
> 
> Dick


Okay, i missunderstood Herman. I know he was training in NVBK and then he was a police dog. I assumed he changed hands when this happened.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Harry Keely said:


> :lol::lol::lol: Its a figure of speech
> 
> The other one was " elementary my dear watson " http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lag22Hl2RQw


 
yeah no dramas man


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Christopher Jones said:


> I would agree with that for the most part, however there are some Dutchie lines which throw a "Dutchie" type, that being more stubborn and willful than alot of Malis.
> Ebro v Leeuwen was sold to an NVBK guy who later sold him to the Belgian police. He comented that he had two Dutchies from Holland and both very far more stubborn and willful than the NVBK Malis are for instance.


Ebro stayed with his first owner till he died, first owner is NVBK guy and police K9 handler. Herman has 2 Ebro sons now, a littermate (Van Leeuwen's Mika (Anne x Wibo) x Van Leeuwen's Ebro) of Vitor of Tim Stacy here on the board: Jalon and Huerva, bred by Jan Sieuw here on the board. If I remember well dam had a lot of Wehrens blood.

And yes, they are a bit different than striped mals.

edit: read the whole thread before you react...saw Dick reacted to it.


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Timothy Stacy said:


> I can now say I agree with this :lol::lol::lol:
> Although stubborn, I do feel when they learn something THEY LEARN it, although more time consuming to teach at times.


 Told you before, you have to learn them twice....

First learning stage, than the must-obey stage. I'm pretty good in the first stage, not so good in the second I admit.


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