# Dominance / Sociability Continued from previous DS Knpv/ families post



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Looking at that thread it appears that some think these two traits are almost the same thing. I am no expert, but I view these two traits as totally separate. It seems to me there are predictable outcomes when certain combinations of expressions of each of these traits are displayed, but not always.
Anyone?


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

I believe they are separate, I have only seen one dog that I thought was truly dominant...granted I've probably seen alot fewer dogs than most but this dog had very few social skills.

He was involved in sport at the time, but now is a PSD.


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## Robin Van Hecke (Sep 7, 2009)

I agree, I've had both, dominant dogs that were very social to some that I wouldn't let out of my sight but most are somewhat in the middle.

Good idea to create another thread..getting way too heated there.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

It seems that true social aggression is almost bred out of most breeds, it is not highly marketable. I still say the two are independent of each other (social, dominance levels). These traits often will overlap with other traits such as territoriality, etc...but often people will say the dog is unsocial, or dominant, which may or may not be the case in my opinion...

But what do I know?
Joby


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## Adam Swilling (Feb 12, 2009)

I think most people do view these as seperate traits. As a baseline, sociability is nothing more than how a particular dog acts around people other than its owner/handler. Dominance is something else entirely. A TRULY dominant dog will try to conquer EVERYTHING. I think that was the point that got lost in the other thread, is it better to raise a DOMINANT dog from a pup or is it ok to get one as an adult. IMO, it's easier on many levels to raise a dog like this from a pup as ground rules can be laid early. But that does not mean the dog will end up being SOCIAL. I think where people get confused is that most dominant type dogs tend to be, but are not always, "unsocial". Think about it, the more dominant the dog is the harder it is to try and title it, regardless of venue. It wants a piece of the judge, or the handler, or another dog. That dog may comply somewhat in certain areas of the training, but eventually, when it's had enough that dominance surfaces again. I don't see that trait very often in dogs that have extreme prey drives; you see it in the dogs that have been bred to have a more "civil" side. Dogs that are more "sport" dogs rarely have this issue. It's usually the dogs that are geared more for PSA. IMHO, if you get a truly dominat dog as an adult, handler and dog must reach a point of mutual respect. Getting a dog like that as an adult, you really have no idea what behaviors have been re-enforced, either positively or negatively, and if you try to bend that animal to your will too soon, one or both of you is probably going to get ruined in the process. Just my opinion.


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Theres a difference between "wannabe" dominant dogs and truely dominant dogs. There are dogs that start fights and there are dogs that finish fights. 
I see alot of dogs, like Dobermans for example, that like to try and pick fights, yet would get their arses handed to them by alot of dogs who dont go causing fights. I consider my Dutchies to be dominant but they rarely start fights, however when a dog runs upto them and shows any sort of aggression or dominance they will punch on very commited.
Basically, not all strong dominant dogs start fights.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I think confidence has a lot to do with dominance and that's not necessarilly a dog that goes out looking to dominate. It's more of a mental thing then physical. 
My GSDS can both physically dominate my JRT (obviously) but they can't convince the little bassid that he isn't the dominant dog in the pile.....and he isn't truely dominant. Just nucking futs!


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Christopher Jones said:


> Theres a difference between "wannabe" dominant dogs and truely dominant dogs. There are dogs that start fights and there are dogs that finish fights.
> I see alot of dogs, like Dobermans for example, that like to try and pick fights, yet would get their arses handed to them by alot of dogs who dont go causing fights. I consider my Dutchies to be dominant but they rarely start fights, however when a dog runs upto them and shows any sort of aggression or dominance they will punch on very commited.
> Basically, not all strong dominant dogs start fights.


That is an interesting take on the discussion. I was more thinking in terms of humans. As before mentioned I am not well versed in DS behaviors on a whole but I have owned many strong "combat" type dogs. In the dogs I had of those other breeds that possessed strong traits in the areas that are being discussed they were very magnified in regards to other animals. The few dominant Presa that I had also demonstated them freely with people as well. Those bloodlines are GONE unfortunately.

I was quite surprised with the level of dominance and aggression that the DS pup we got displayed towards other dogs, not knowing the breed well. She was very openly dog aggressive very young... 
when we were deciding on which pup to pick the choice was made for me when Luna dropped the rag and grabbed the other female by the head when they were tugging with eachother. If I remember correctly she had to be pried off, and the other pup was "vocalizing her discomfort" quite emphatically, choice was made on the spot. Coming from my background with dogs I chose to take the more dominant dog as I always have. 
For better or worse. 
A coupla weeks later when we had a dog show I brought her out to "socialize her", yeah right..All she did was try to fight everything, LOL. I was doing the show and couldnt work with her and ended up putting her away cause she was the loudest dog there. I heard from several bullbreed people that the dog was NUTS. 
At about 4 months she almost got killed trying to fight a 5 yr old male boxer that was pretty forgiving for about a minute. 

This is not an issue any longer, one thing I DO have a lot of experience with is knocking out dog aggression. I have no place for it, she wont even look at another dog now if she can avoid it, but I'm sure if a loose dog tried to attack her, her old ways would resurface quickly, as it should. 

This issue if left unchecked would have made for an unbearable situation, Easily dealt with but I really wasn't expecting this trait to be so strong in a "herding" breed....lol 

Is this about average for the breed or no?

Joby


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Joby is this dog Luna yours or a girl amanda's from the chicago area. I read about her with you as the owner but see has her advertised as one of hers on her site with no mention of you. Not looking to start nothing just more curious I guess to who the dog lives with and is trained by more so I guess after reading this post by you.:?



Joby Becker said:


> That is an interesting take on the discussion. I was more thinking in terms of humans. As before mentioned I am not well versed in DS behaviors on a whole but I have owned many strong "combat" type dogs. In the dogs I had of those other breeds that possessed strong traits in the areas that are being discussed they were very magnified in regards to other animals. The few dominant Presa that I had also demonstated them freely with people as well. Those bloodlines are GONE unfortunately.
> 
> I was quite surprised with the level of dominance and aggression that the DS pup we got displayed towards other dogs, not knowing the breed well. She was very openly dog aggressive very young...
> when we were deciding on which pup to pick the choice was made for me when Luna dropped the rag and grabbed the other female by the head when they were tugging with eachother. If I remember correctly she had to be pried off, and the other pup was "vocalizing her discomfort" quite emphatically, choice was made on the spot. Coming from my background with dogs I chose to take the more dominant dog as I always have.
> ...


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

I gotta agree with Chris and Bob on the dominance thing. I don't see the real dominant dogs trying to force their dominance on people or other dogs all hours of the day. The are usually too confidant in their self/surroundings to even give most things the time of day. Social structure is totally different. But I think more than just these 2 things come into play when your really figuring a dog out. 

A dominant, antisocial dog with low pack drive will be the bitch to work with, as he cares for no one but himself. Harder to motivate and he ain't doing it for you because he's your dog and he likes you.

Dominant , antisocial but with a buttloald of pack drive is an easy enough dog to work with because he likes you, wants to protect you and is bidable towards you. He may push other people and give them the finger, but stopping when you tell him to knock it off.

Also aggression, thresholds, level headed, social behaviour comes into play in the the aspect of how the dog reacts when he feels the need to get pushy. Some dogs with a low threshold and high aggression may feel the need to bite first ask question later.

My dog is dominant but with higher thresholds, no dog aggression, low-mid sociability (he is fine letting people say hi but he doesn't care about them 2 seconds later, he trots off, ball in mouth and watches from a 10-15 foot distance) and he doesn't take shit personal. Instead of biting first or barking like a nutjob, he would assert himself inbetween myself and who/what it is he feels the need to watch, he may even push into them, poke them with his nose or just growl, looking them dead on in the face. Most of the time, people don't even realise what is happening. Usually he just acts the asshole, stops right in front of people, blocking their way, getting over the top of them, he humped a couple legs when he was younger, tried asserting dominance with my daughter at about 9 months old and we butted heads over that. My fiance has been around for 2 years and Baden still tries to put himself ahead of him periodicly. He's not a dog person but he realizes the dog is ****ing with him in a way that he doesn't try on me. Fortuntaly, I raised my dog from a pup and my fiance joined in the picture when my dog was about 15 months old. Dog lives outside and the 2 of them don't mingle much.

I don't think you can really say "all" dominant dogs, react like this or that, without knowing what other traits they hold. I have seen a couple really dominant dogs that **** up their handlers because of the thresholds, drives, aggression, all line up that way. Those dogs didn't give big shows of teeth or act like idiots in public. But I have seen more dogs that act like badasses towards everything in sight, that are just nervebags with low thresholds.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Harry Keely said:


> Joby is this dog Luna yours or a girl amanda's from the chicago area. I read about her with you as the owner but see has her advertised as one of hers on her site with no mention of you. Not looking to start nothing just more curious I guess to who the dog lives with and is trained by more so I guess after reading this post by you.:?


 
Reason I ask is because dogs that are passed back in forth between to places or facilities tend to have issues from never having a steady handler or fundation, not saying that this is the case. More so just food for thought if this is the scenario for this dog.


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## Meng Xiong (Jan 21, 2009)

Michelle Kehoe said:


> I gotta agree with Chris and Bob on the dominance thing. I don't see the real dominant dogs trying to force their dominance on people or other dogs all hours of the day. The are usually too confidant in their self/surroundings to even give most things the time of day. Social structure is totally different. But I think more than just these 2 things come into play when your really figuring a dog out.
> 
> A dominant, antisocial dog with low pack drive will be the bitch to work with, as he cares for no one but himself. Harder to motivate and he ain't doing it for you because he's your dog and he likes you.
> 
> ...


Great post!


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## Jessica Kromer (Nov 12, 2009)

> Great post!


I agree. :smile:



> My dog is dominant but with higher thresholds, no dog aggression, low-mid sociability (he is fine letting people say hi but he doesn't care about them 2 seconds later, he trots off, ball in mouth and watches from a 10-15 foot distance) and he doesn't take shit personal. Instead of biting first or barking like a nutjob, he would assert himself inbetween myself and who/what it is he feels the need to watch, he may even push into them, poke them with his nose or just growl, looking them dead on in the face. Most of the time, people don't even realise what is happening. Usually he just acts the asshole, stops right in front of people, blocking their way, getting over the top of them, he humped a couple legs when he was younger, tried asserting dominance with my daughter at about 9 months old and we butted heads over that. My fiance has been around for 2 years and Baden still tries to put himself ahead of him periodicly. He's not a dog person but he realizes the dog is ****ing with him in a way that he doesn't try on me. Fortuntaly, I raised my dog from a pup and my fiance joined in the picture when my dog was about 15 months old. Dog lives outside and the 2 of them don't mingle much.


 
This describes my Rott to a "T", even down to the boyfriend and the dog just don't mingle. GREAT dog when it is he and I, but not a dog I trust alone with anyone else.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

This is going to turn into a "my dog is so dominant thread"


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## Adam Swilling (Feb 12, 2009)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> This is going to turn into a "my dog is so dominant thread"


Exactly. And then the line between dominant and social will get blurred. And then everyone and their brother will re-define the word dominant And people who think their dog is dominant will be told by someone else who doesn't know that their dog is really not dominant, yadda, yadda, etc. etc.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Adam Swilling said:


> Exactly. And then the line between dominant and social will get blurred. And then everyone and their brother will re-define the word dominant And people who think their dog is dominant will be told by someone else who doesn't know that their dog is really not dominant, yadda, yadda, etc. etc.


 This is the way the word "Extreme" came to mean nothing also.:razz:


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## Adam Swilling (Feb 12, 2009)

mike suttle said:


> This is the way the word "Extreme" came to mean nothing also.:razz:


An excellent point, my good man.:grin:


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Harry dog is co-owned by me and Amanda, yes. Dog resides with me full time. She approached me about co-ownership deal that is working out well. 
Joby


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Harry Keely said:


> Joby is this dog Luna yours or a girl amanda's from the chicago area. I read about her with you as the owner but see has her advertised as one of hers on her site with no mention of you. Not looking to start nothing just more curious I guess to who the dog lives with and is trained by more so I guess after reading this post by you.:?


Couldn't figure out how to edit LOL.

Yes the dog is the same dog, Amanda was working with me to get the bitework done on her male DS so she could attempt to title him in FR. He did get his FR1 as far as I know. 

She approached me with a co-ownership proposal, I did my research, made a few calls to people I know and trust that are very familiar with the DS, and jumped on the deal. We both went down to Mike's and agreed immediately on the pick. We are both happy with the dog, (I THINK LOL) I know I am. We have had our little differences regarding the arrangement, but I am fairly sure all is well between us. 

The dog has been with me the entire time we've owned her. She has not shifted owners. 

Any problems, shortcomings will rest squarely on my shoulders concerning this dogs training, I am sure there will be some...

Amanda has not seen the dog in 3 months, we do talk occasionally though. Hopefully we will hook back up and train for the upcoming year, I liked working her dogs. She had a good year this year with what she concentrated on.

I noticed that there is no mention of me on the website. HUMPH!!!! lol. If I had a website I would at least mention the co-owner... I can see why it could be confusing to someone that doesn't personally know us.

I am also not sure why she posts on the web to ask about pictures instead of just calling me, she has my number..lol. No one is withholding access to the dog...or pictures, although the photographer does want some credit for the photos that ended up on the website.

I used to always re-iterate that the dog is co-owned but most everyone in our area knows this already. It is the same dog.

I am happy that the opportunity was brought to my attention, and look forward to seeing what the future brings. I'll try my best to do right by the dog.


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## Sue Miller (Jul 21, 2009)

Christopher Jones said:


> Theres a difference between "wannabe" dominant dogs and truely dominant dogs. There are dogs that start fights and there are dogs that finish fights.
> I see alot of dogs, like Dobermans for example, that like to try and pick fights, yet would get their arses handed to them by alot of dogs who dont go causing fights. I consider my Dutchies to be dominant but they rarely start fights, however when a dog runs upto them and shows any sort of aggression or dominance they will punch on very commited.
> Basically, not all strong dominant dogs start fights.


Exactly! Dominant dogs that will defend you to the death pick their fights carefully or they would always be fighting--they are very tolerant with pack members. Dogs in the mid-level heirarchy are the ones who will pick the fights most often because there is no clearly-defined line for them--dominant members are above & subordinates are below.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> Couldn't figure out how to edit LOL.
> 
> Yes the dog is the same dog, Amanda was working with me to get the bitework done on her male DS so she could attempt to title him in FR. He did get his FR1 as far as I know.
> 
> ...


Dude not questioning the training, I dont know you from Adam & Eve to make a statement. I was more interested in who is owning / working her on a daily basis or every other day basis. I was confused because she looks nice and I know she came from Mike. Plus shes a DS ( my preference of breed for years). So was curious to her imprinting and so on if she was to be bred and who she might be bred to or if shes ever bred, could be interested on a pup maybe thats all. I know amanda is on here and has brought out a thread on Stud dogs, and I know she has that male DS Achilles or something like that.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Harry Keely said:


> Dude not questioning the training, I dont know you from Adam & Eve to make a statement. I was more interested in who is owning / working her on a daily basis or every other day basis. I was confused because she looks nice and I know she came from Mike. Plus shes a DS ( my preference of breed for years). So was curious to her imprinting and so on if she was to be bred and who she might be bred to or if shes ever bred, could be interested on a pup maybe thats all. I know amanda is on here and has brought out a thread on Stud dogs, and I know she has that male DS Achilles or something like that.


No problem Harry, no offense meant or taken, was just explaining the situation. Was just taking the blame if the training gets fukked up, lol. It's all on me...

We are hopeful hat the dog will make the cut and be bred in the future, my experience is in breeding with off breeds, and I went through almost 20 dogs before I had a litter. By the time I bred, the standard changed so much my dogs were out of standard LOL....

First we have to get the hips, elbows, and spinal evaluations. Then I would like to have the dog evaluated by a very experienced DS breeder, who will know what he is looking at, some one whos knows the lines, dogs, and families. 

Since I am not a great trainer, the dog will most likely never be titled to a high level, which is fine with me. Due to personal living arrangements, the dog did spend a fair amount of time in a kennel during her first year. (terrible i know) But I am very impressed with this particular dog, and how quickly she is progressing now with a better environment and more consistent work.

The only good thing about the dog being kenneled is that it is easy to see what the dog is like naturally, as opposed to seeing the training on the dog. 

If and only if the dog passes all health concerns, is evaluated by some one who is "in the know" about the DS, and gets a nod of approval for breeding, will she be bred.

If that decision is made, we will seek the advice of the breeder as to what stud is to be used. Mike is a straight up guy and has always been honest with us about who to possibly breed this dog to, even if it wasn't one of his. If and when that time comes, we hopefully will make the best decision possible. I would not want to breed unless it was for a purpose of improving the breed average, or at least maintaining the quality of the dogs involved.

Amanda does have a nice male DS. We have talked about breeding, and I do believe that we are on the same page as to not breed her male to this particular bitch. 

I am of the opinion that 1200-1500 dollars is a small price to pay to get access to a top notch stud. I am hopeful for the future, we will make the best decisions that we can if we decide to breed this dog.


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## David Ruby (Jul 21, 2009)

Michelle Kehoe said:


> A dominant, antisocial dog with low pack drive will be the bitch to work with, as he cares for no one but himself. Harder to motivate and he ain't doing it for you because he's your dog and he likes you.
> 
> Dominant , antisocial but with a buttloald of pack drive is an easy enough dog to work with because he likes you, wants to protect you and is bidable towards you. He may push other people and give them the finger, but stopping when you tell him to knock it off.


Two questions.

First, how likely is one to get a dog that can be dominant-yet-biddable with a high "pack drive" (or just a desire to work with the handler and bond with the handler-and-family)?

Second, for a dominant dog with low pack drive or just not a strong desire to please the handler, does it ever work to try a more motivational-heavy tactic and a go-team mentality to get the dog working for/with you work, or are you always just trying to "make" the dog work for you than an accepting/willing partner? I'd also wonder if with a dog like Mike Suttle's Carlos (just as an example of the dog/line/type, not necessarily just Mike & Carlos) if that sort of relationship is possible now, a/o if it was possible if he'd had the dog from a pup, or the dog would just see you as a wuss and try to dominate you.

-Cheers


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> No problem Harry, no offense meant or taken, was just explaining the situation. Was just taking the blame if the training gets fukked up, lol. It's all on me...
> 
> We are hopeful hat the dog will make the cut and be bred in the future, my experience is in breeding with off breeds, and I went through almost 20 dogs before I had a litter. By the time I bred, the standard changed so much my dogs were out of standard LOL....
> 
> ...


Me personally if you got the dog from mike I would see Mike first. He might have something at the time is suitable to your needs for what your looking to produce. But once again just my opinion and there are many varying ones on this forum.


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

David Ruby said:


> Two questions.
> 
> First, how likely is one to get a dog that can be dominant-yet-biddable with a high "pack drive" (or just a desire to work with the handler and bond with the handler-and-family)?
> 
> ...


Well the breeder I bought the dog from told me what he was expecting to get, which was what I ended up with. I talked to him quite a bit when my dog was younger, I asked more than a few times, when is the bidability/pack drive going to show up? My dog gave me the finger up until about 13 mos or so and then it was like a switch was thrown. All of a sudden he started to enjoy working with me, not fighting me or working for himself. We always called him the selfish bastard as a pup, he worked for his "reward", ball or bite and could care less about me. When I had questions about what's and when's, everything the breeder told me was right on. He didn't just research the mother/father but back about 5 generations on both sides and knew exactly what to expect, fully uniformed litter, dominant dogs, no handler aggression, super clear heads, full grips, high pain thresholds. How many other breeders know their dogs well enough to send you exactly what you want? That I don't know. I just talked to as many people as I could untilI found one that was willing to talk dogs until their was nothing left to talk about, even the negatives they fear "may" pop up in the breedings. 

With the second question, I say try whatever tactic you can think of. Something will motivate the dog. My dog needed no motivation to bite, he came screaming out of his crate mouth open. Try using bites as your motivator in this case. I have had dogs that had no food or toy motivation but would do it to avoid a correction. In those cases the dog learned to work and to like it. I have no idea if Mikes dog would be better if he bought it as a pup or not. By the sounds of what Dick and Selena say, I doubt it. How far you can push a dog depends on handler aggression, if he isn't handler aggro, you can probably MAKE him do what you want the Koehler way, if motivation can't be found. I just find every dog "wants" something, you just have to find out that something. If I was in Mikes shoes, I would force my dog to "want" something. Withold water, withold food, eventually, he might come around for a drink after a sit or heel. Dunno though, too hard to speculate unless you live with the dog and even then some will surpise you. I don't see a need for a dog with so much aggression, how do you work with him if he wants to eat you that bad? It becomes a matter of not when you get bit but how bad!


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

David Ruby said:


> Two questions.
> 
> First, how likely is one to get a dog that can be dominant-yet-biddable with a high "pack drive" (or just a desire to work with the handler and bond with the handler-and-family)?
> 
> ...


David, problem with most dogs is once they got your number thats it. After that and you have had a problem with the dog, especially a on going problem the human body wheter you like it or not is shedding all different signals to that dog - just like how a dog tracks a human. Unless your superman or some super being that can control emotion sub - consciously your screwed. At that point you step up to the plate and become the alpha again or you sell the dog to a new handler or you become the dogs bitch. Either way to that dog it don't make a dam to him or her. As a pup you stand a better chance because its alot easier to control / dominate become alpha or however peole like to put it on here. There are good adults out there as well. What I'm trying to say pup or adult it doesn't matter same rules and concepts apply. Although I would choose my battles carefully with an adult. You dont ever want to go after a adult on their ground and terms you want to do it on your terms LOL, preferably with a muzzle on your terms. I'm not saying beat your dog to its almost dead either by the way,the muzzle is there for you to have hopely a upper hand to reclaim alpha.


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## Adam Swilling (Feb 12, 2009)

Harry Keely said:


> David, problem with most dogs is once they got your number thats it. After that and you have had a problem with the dog, especially a on going problem the human body wheter you like it or not is shedding all different signals to that dog - just like how a dog tracks a human. Unless your superman or some super being that can control emotion sub - consciously your screwed. At that point you step up to the plate and become the alpha again or you sell the dog to a new handler or you become the dogs bitch. Either way to that dog it don't make a dam to him or her. As a pup you stand a better chance because its alot easier to control / dominate become alpha or however peole like to put it on here. There are good adults out there as well. What I'm trying to say pup or adult it doesn't matter same rules and concepts apply. Although I would choose my battles carefully with an adult. You dont ever want to go after a adult on their ground and terms you want to do it on your terms LOL, preferably with a muzzle on your terms. I'm not saying beat your dog to its almost dead either by the way,the muzzle is there for you to have hopely a upper hand to reclaim alpha.


 
I think you bring up an extremely valid point-- the muzzle. The muzzle is not just an apparatus to keep you from getting bit. In a situation where you have to re-gain the upper hand with a dog, it is a very valuable tool. I have a very good friend who has two of the most over the top GSD's I have ever seen. I swear sometimes I think these two dogs were sent forth from the bowels of hell. Back in Spring one of these dogs reached the point where he decided taking a bite out of the guy was a great idea. After a trip to the ER and having a ligament removed from his arm the next thing was what to do with the dog. MOST people would have gotten rid of it. Instead my buddy chose to put the muzzle on and make this dog understand who Daddy is. It's been a very deliberate process but it's starting to pay off. By using the muzzle, he can correct the mortal hell out of the dog when needed, and the dog having to obey under someone else's terms.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Adam Swilling said:


> I think you bring up an extremely valid point-- the muzzle. The muzzle is not just an apparatus to keep you from getting bit. In a situation where you have to re-gain the upper hand with a dog, it is a very valuable tool. I have a very good friend who has two of the most over the top GSD's I have ever seen. I swear sometimes I think these two dogs were sent forth from the bowels of hell. Back in Spring one of these dogs reached the point where he decided taking a bite out of the guy was a great idea. After a trip to the ER and having a ligament removed from his arm the next thing was what to do with the dog. MOST people would have gotten rid of it. Instead my buddy chose to put the muzzle on and make this dog understand who Daddy is. It's been a very deliberate process but it's starting to pay off. By using the muzzle, he can correct the mortal hell out of the dog when needed, and the dog having to obey under someone else's terms.


Its a miserable way of doing things but sometimes its better than selling the dog especially if you like the dog or even worse becoming the dogs bitch boy. Anybody who tells you different doesn't need to have or deserves to have a real f**king dog no matter the breed. If they tell you otherwise there full of s**t. Sorry, just my opinion once again.:wink:


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## Adam Swilling (Feb 12, 2009)

Harry Keely said:


> Its a miserable way of doing things but sometimes its better than selling the dog especially if you like the dog or even worse becoming the dogs bitch boy. Anybody who tells you different doesn't need to have or deserves to have a real f**king dog no matter the breed. If they tell you otherwise there full of s**t. Sorry, just my opinion once again.:wink:


I've got to agree with you, Harry. It's not the most ideal situation to have to deal with sometimes. I don't personally know that many people that could handle this particular dog, and I'll be the first to admit that it's way too much dog for me at this point. Unfortunately, too many people think they can handle dogs like this and end up with more than they bargained for. In this situation the guy took it as a challenge and set about figuring out how to deal with it, which taught me alot about patience as a trainer, which I admittedly need more of:razz:.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Adam Swilling said:


> I've got to agree with you, Harry. It's not the most ideal situation to have to deal with sometimes. I don't personally know that many people that could handle this particular dog, and I'll be the first to admit that it's way too much dog for me at this point. Unfortunately, too many people think they can handle dogs like this and end up with more than they bargained for. In this situation the guy took it as a challenge and set about figuring out how to deal with it, which taught me alot about patience as a trainer, which I admittedly need more of:razz:.


We could all use some more patience, Once again who ever tells you they dont ever get frustrated with their dog and has all the patience in the world is once again full of shit. Nothing wrong with the old muzzle but it should kinda be more of a last resort thing. Sometimes it is used as a first resort depending on the dog I guess.


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