# Excitability and small children.



## David Berraco (Dec 19, 2007)

I'm relatively new to the child raising thing, my daughter is two years old. My dog is also 2 years old and been with me almost 2 months. The dog lives in the house. There are times throughout the day when the dog is in a highly excitable state, panting rapidly and will not calm down. I've done some long down stays to get him to gain control of himself. He'll do the down stay but will not come out of the excited/anxious mode. At other times he settles into a normal emotional state on his own. He'll be perfectly calm at night in the house, in his crate, in his outdoor kennel.

I've been breaking my head as to the possible cause. Last night it occurred to me that the child might be the reason. Although the child does nothing to directly stimulate the dog. Last night I also noticed that when the child was put to bed, shortly after the dog calmed down.

Has anyone else experienced uncontrollable excitability around small children?


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

David Berraco said:


> Has anyone else experienced uncontrollable excitability around small children?


My 2 yr old Mal is the same way when the grandkids are here and I think it has everything to do with them running, playing, being loud and boisterous. 
When they run it is almost like she cannot stand it because she wants to be out there with them. Not sure what she wants to do with them, but we do not allow her loose around them. 

She does okay with them when they are calm and come pet her, but we have taught them that they must ask and they have to calm themselves down before they approach the dog.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Carol Boche said:


> My 2 yr old Mal is the same way when the grandkids are here....When they run it is almost like she cannot stand it because she wants to be out there with them. Not sure what she wants to do with them, but we do not allow her loose around them.


mmmmmmmm children running mmmmmmmmmmmmmm I think you have a pretty good idea what she would like to do!!!!!!!!!!! :-\" :-\" :-\"


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

susan tuck said:


> mmmmmmmm children running mmmmmmmmmmmmmm I think you have a pretty good idea what she would like to do!!!!!!!!!!! :-\" :-\" :-\"


HAHAHAHAH.....yeah, I am in avoidance though....to think she would eat my grandkids.....](*,)


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Eat?? - never!......play with.........like a cat with a mouse:mrgreen: :mrgreen:


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Or like Jesea.....a mal with a cat.....:mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Oh that's right - I forgot all about that!!!!! Exactly!


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## David Berraco (Dec 19, 2007)

In my case when the dog is in the excitable state I was describing he is not focused on the child. It is a general excited state that does not allow him to relax. This is evident when he's in a down stay. The indication there is the incessant panting and the eyes.

That aside there are times when he is excited and focused on the child. This however was not difficult for me to control. I let the dog do his thing a few times to see how far he will go. He was reacting to movement from the child and was starting to perceive it as a play object. The dog would run after the child and crowd it. When it got too pushy I corrected him. Like I said it wasn't difficult to make him understand and the change is permanent. What's left still is the dog focusing on toys that the child is playing with. He will simply take the toys away from the child and carry them to his spot. This for a reason I'm not sure about required numerous corrections. It is also more or less under control but I really hated correcting the dog for it. Maybe it was my lack of decisiveness in the matter that made the issue more difficult to resolve.

This dog lives in the house and I want it to be a comfort to my family when I'm not home. These issues can not be swept under the carpet by isolating the dog from these situations. He has to learn how to function harmoniously within our home. That is of course the reason for me to not waste any time in laying out the new rules of behavior in the house.

The general excitability I was talking about is nothing that I can address directly. Keeping the child completely away from the dog is not an option and I don't want to crate the dog for a large part of the day. I still don't know to what degree the child is the reason for this. Another thing that causes this behavior is the dogs food. It is in his bowl warming up to room temperature a few hours before feeding time and appears to provoke the same restlessness. Regardless if the food is out out of sight the dog knows its there, this is evidenced by the excitable state.

This dog may be the smartest dog I've owned.


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

So does the excitability start directly after you put out the food to thaw? If so, then that's probably it. Hungry dog that knows his food is somewhere to be had!

Also, could it be that he needs to go out? Or is thirsty? My dogs both get like that either when they decide they need to poop, or when they decide to be thirsty.


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## David Berraco (Dec 19, 2007)

Thanks for the suggestions.

Water is always available. I'm still learning his signs but I erred on the side of fairness many times taking him outside just for the reason you mentioned. It turned out not to be the reason as evidenced by the lack of toilet activities


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

"I let the dog do his thing a few times to see how far he will go...The dog would run after the child and crowd it. When it got too pushy I corrected him." 
"What's left still is the dog focusing on toys that the child is playing with. He will simply take the toys away from the child and carry them to his spot. This for a reason I'm not sure about required numerous corrections"
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In my opinion, you are correcting the dog AFTER he is has keyed in to the child or the childs toy and I think you are reacting too late because by that time he is amped. Watch the dog, when he starts to stare at the child or starts to tense, or act stalky is the time for the correction. If you see him staring, tell him "no" and correct him. Sort of like getting a donkey to move once he's stuck in his tracks - you have to derail it at the real outset.
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"I still don't know to what degree the child is the reason for this."
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Because a two year old child squeeks and makes disjointed type movements, is small and unable to defend itself and eye to eye with the dog. In other words, very much like prey. So if you are going to have the two interact, you must be fair to the dog and not allow the child to antagonize him or test him, or do anything the dog perceives as antagonistic. All interaction must be very closely monitored. Personally, I think it would be much better and safer for all involved if the child and dog were seperated at all times. The only interaction I would allow would be for the child to learn to pat the dog nicely on the body sometimes!
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" Another thing that causes this behavior is the dogs food. It is in his bowl warming up to room temperature a few hours before feeding time and appears to provoke the same restlessness. Regardless if the food is out out of sight the dog knows its there, this is evidenced by the excitable state."
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This is totally normal. For instance, I feed my dog twice a day at the same time. Leading up to meal time he gets more & more happy. Once that time has passed, if I have not fed him you would think his little world had come to an end and I have committed an egregious sin.


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

David Berraco said:


> This dog lives in the house and I want it to be a comfort to my family when I'm not home. These issues can not be swept under the carpet by isolating the dog from these situations. He has to learn how to function harmoniously within our home. That is of course the reason for me to not waste any time in laying out the new rules of behavior in the house.


I don't know if I implied it, but, my girl is not isolated all of the time. She is out and has her place in the home. If we are going to be doing an activity that requires my attention be somewhere else, she is crated or goes out to her kennel. 
I will not risk anything happening while my attention cannot be on the dog.


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## David Berraco (Dec 19, 2007)

Carol, that paragraph was not in response to what you posted. I wrote it because I wanted to make clear my reasons for correcting the dog.


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

David Berraco said:


> Carol, that paragraph was not in response to what you posted. I wrote it because I wanted to make clear my reasons for correcting the dog.


Ah, I see. I just reread what I wrote and thought I better clarify a little. :-D


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## David Berraco (Dec 19, 2007)

susan tuck said:


> In my opinion, you are correcting the dog AFTER he is has keyed in to the child or the childs toy and I think you are reacting too late because by that time he is amped. Watch the dog, when he starts to stare at the child or starts to tense, or act stalky is the time for the correction. If you see him staring, tell him "no" and correct him.


I agree with this and follow the course of action you recommend. I was referring to the first few times where I wanted to see how far the dog will take the behavior.


susan tuck said:


> Because a two year old child squeeks and makes disjointed type movements, is small and unable to defend itself and eye to eye with the dog. In other words, very much like prey. So if you are going to have the two interact, you must be fair to the dog and not allow the child to antagonize him or test him, or do anything the dog perceives as antagonistic. All interaction must be very closely monitored. Personally, I think it would be much better and safer for all involved if the child and dog were seperated at all times. The only interaction I would allow would be for the child to learn to pat the dog nicely on the body sometimes!


This last part I don't agree with. This dog is not an offensive use dog that when working is always doing so with the handler present. It is a defensive dog that will need to make up his own mind when use of force is necessary. For that to happen it needs to have a clear understanding of all the nuances of home life. Including the behavior of a small child. I let everything happen naturally between the dog and the child while I monitor the situation. Only when someone crosses the line (the child or the dog) do I move in and take control of the situation. IMO the dog must be able to tolerate quite a bit from the child.

I've had no aggressive reaction from him to anything the child has done. This, just like with the dog I let happen to see how far the child will go. Then decided where to draw the line. The point where the dog required correction is when it was actively engaging the child, not where the child was perceived as a threat.

As I write this I see the dog doing self calming behavior  For the 2nd time ever he went into the open crate (Which is part of my desk) on his own. I mentioned before that this is one of the places where he calms down. Now is the time where he normally gets excited and he was excited when he went in the crate. I must say that I've lived with many rotts and this is the first one I see that displays these attributes I usually think of a mal having. You people who have mals please correct me if this is not the case. I'm used to rottweilers being good at relaxing and this excitability is the only fault, as far as I'm concerned, with this dog. I find it hard to deal with.


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## Sharon Adams (Nov 6, 2007)

I am sure you have your hands full with two 'toddlers' in your home, but
Is this dog getting a good hour at least, of hard exercise?


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## David Berraco (Dec 19, 2007)

I do have my hands full as the education of both is all on me. I have to say that no, he doesn't get an hour of exercise. I feel guilty about this but don't know what to do to tire him out. I thought of setting up a treadmill. I heard that when the dogs get exercise like this they build up even more stamina and then become even more energetic. I think the best thing would be something that would tire him out physically and psychologically but I don't know what I can do for him.

In my experience obedience training provided a sort of mind work that tires the dog and makes it calm down. It is not the case with this one and I work him every day sometimes twice a day. The bite training that I'm doing with him, the sessions are brief and not enough to tire him out either.

I welcome suggestions on what to do to tire him out.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

David Berraco said:


> In my experience obedience training provided a sort of mind work that tires the dog and makes it calm down. It is not the case with this one and I work him every day sometimes twice a day. The bite training that I'm doing with him, the sessions are brief and not enough to tire him out either.
> 
> I welcome suggestions on what to do to tire him out.


Games, fetch?


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## David Berraco (Dec 19, 2007)

He chases a ball DAMN hard but doesn't bring it back to me. He does return to my general vicinity though. Is there a way to teach this without me having to behave like a clown with two balls? If I change from a ball to another object is there a probability that he will bring it back? I don't want to play tug of war with him but maybe I should give it a try.


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## Sharon Adams (Nov 6, 2007)

do you have a fenced in yard/area to exercise him off leash?


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

When my grandkids (5 and 2.5) are over we take the dogs out and throw balls for 20 minutes or so to take hte edge off. We only have one dog out at a time mainly because 3 dogs and 2 little kids is just too much energy and too much to watch.

My own kids grew up with GSDs in the house when they were little but that was before I discovered Working Lines.


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## David Berraco (Dec 19, 2007)

Sharon Adams said:


> do you have a fenced in yard/area to exercise him off leash?


I don't have a fenced in area where he can exercise himself without me being present. He is however under control so I can have him off leash in a number of places including my yard. I would like to dedicate some time every day to exercising him as long as it is something definite that we're doing. Not hanging around hoping a dog more or less his weight will show up for him to play with.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

David, it sounds like you have a handle on it. I myself don't have kids, so probably my reaction is overly cautious.


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## David Berraco (Dec 19, 2007)

Thanks to some suggestions in this thread I paid closer attention to the dogs behavior before and after feeding. I said that he went into his crate on his own about half an hour ago. He did keep panting in there though. So I decided to feed him a little early today and gave him the food. He finished eating and is perfectly calm now. Nice thing about feeding raw is that it requires some work from the dog in itself.

The problem I see with this is that if I regularly feed him at 9pm he starts this behavior at 6pm. So if I give in and feed him at 7:30pm to give myself a respite from his panting, then tomorrow he will start it at 4pm instead of 6.

Don't tell me this dog is going to require a snack half way throughout the day every day ](*,)

Did I already say I really like this dog and this is maybe his only fault


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

David Berraco said:


> ...not hanging around hoping a dog more or less his weight will show up for him to play with.


Well DANG. That's it for mine..... that's all they get.


:lol: :lol:


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

David Berraco said:


> He chases a ball DAMN hard but doesn't bring it back to me. He does return to my general vicinity though. Is there a way to teach this without me having to behave like a clown with two balls?


You can teach the part where he gives it to you separately from the part where you throw and he runs after it. THEN you put them together. ;-)


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## David Berraco (Dec 19, 2007)

That's not what I meant by tug of war. I meant that he might be happier to return to me with an object if he knows I'll play tug of war with him and the object. I have a reluctance to playing tug of war with my own working dog in general. I'm too used to gradually increasing the intensity of the game and do it without thinking about it. Then things escalate to where I don't want.

I have no problem teaching him to release to my hand. I don't know however how to teach him to return to me while keeping that intense drive to chase down the ball.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

David Berraco said:


> That's not what I meant by tug of war.


I wasn't talking about tug of war (in any sense)..... just the comment about the dog not returning to you in "fetch." ;-)



David Berraco said:


> I have no problem teaching him to release to my hand. I don't know however how to teach him to return to me while keeping that intense drive to chase down the ball.


You can:

Teach the return to you in a less drivey situation and then take it out to the wide-open spaces.

Teach the dog to retrieve in a hallway or other smallish space, where the options are limited. 

Throw the toy/ball a shorter distance outside at first to keep the focus on you. 



You can end the game if the dog doesn't return to you.


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## David Berraco (Dec 19, 2007)

Connie, How do you find the dogs that are not naturally predisposed to bringing back an object and been trained to do it? In play retrieve situations, do they maintain the same intensity?


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

If the dog has a high value food item or toy, use that as a reward for returning the fetch item.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

David Berraco said:


> How do you find the dogs that are not naturally predisposed to bringing back an object and been trained to do it? In play retrieve situations, do they maintain the same intensity?


Does a dog trained to retrieve do it with the intensity of a natural retriever? I don't know. Seems that there would be a lot of contributing factors. I imagine the answer would basically be no. But, as you say, it's playing fetch, rather than taking your retriever hunting. :-D


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> If the dog has a high value food item or toy, use that as a reward for returning the fetch item.


Sounds like the best answer so far. :-D


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## David Berraco (Dec 19, 2007)

I had an experience with one of my dogs, can't remember which and when.. He didn't return to me with the object either but when the object was thrown into water he would return to me. I'd try that but in fresh water here we have alligators and possibly snapping turtles, if it's the beach then the dog needs a wash down after every swim to get rid of the beach sand.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

David Berraco said:


> I had an experience with one of my dogs, can't remember which and when.. He didn't return to me with the object either but when the object was thrown into water he would return to me. .


Was he...... a Lab? :lol:


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## David Berraco (Dec 19, 2007)

He most likely had the same earset as a lab.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

None of my dogs is a natural retriever but they chase like mad. 

I know a lot of folks don't like "two ball" but it sure worked for getting the dogs to bring the balls back. Why is that? Perhaps it is not good for competition dogs?

I go out with three chuck-its and 6 balls (wish they made a big dog size but the design lets me throw balls like a machine and keeps slobber of of my hands), and play with all three dogs at the same time - they actually know where "their" ball will go. With 3 dogs I can burn a lot of doggie calories in 20 minutes.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

I think "two ball" is a great idea, it's very easy and it is not bad for dogs destined for schutzhund sport -I don't know about the other sports.


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## Sharon Adams (Nov 6, 2007)

David, I am going to add my $.02 worth, hopefully something will be of benefit to you and your dog?
I now feed twice per day, I divided their one meal into two feedings so they aren't getting any more to eat, just two smaller feedings. It really helped decrease the anticipation at feeding times around here, plus it helps them maintain their correct weights. I feed raw also, so when I am letting their meals thaw / get to room temperatures, I either place it high up in a cupboard, in the unused microwave, or oven(no pilot light in my oven)They don't know where it will be coming from, it is in closed plastic bags and or tupperware and not as easily detectable. I also get it from the fridge or freezer when they are not in the kitchen so they are not excited even more so. 
There are a lot of different things you can incorporate into keeping him well exercised,(a tired dog makes a happy owner). I have a very high energy APBT, 10 mile hikes don't even begin to wear her out.
I will walk her wearing her weight pull harness , letting her pull about 10 pounds of weight.
A bike ride with your dog attached to a 'springer' is great for both of you, you could even get a baby seat and take your toddler along for the ride so you all get to enjoy your time out together.
A back pack with equal weight on each side is also good to walk them with, carrying the extra weight will help wear him out.
I keep an agility jump in my back yard, I throw the ball over the jump so my dog will jump every time she retrieves her tug or ball. I also have a few other pieces of agility equipment I keep set up, and run my dog thru a few sets of those several times per week.
When we have snow on the ground, my dog will pull one of those long plastic flat sleds, packed with snow on top for added weight.You can ad your toddler and get a two for the money here!
I will hide a lot of 'goodies' in the yard and incorporate 'search' along with many obedience drills in between.This can really be helpful when I am tired and want to limit my hikes, the obed drills and searching does help take the edge off.
I made a 'flirt pole' and use that many days per week, lots of running, jumping, air time,trying to get that high value item on the end of that pole/line.If your not familiar with a flirt pole, imagine a heavy duty fishing pole with a dog toy tied on the end where the hook would have gone)
Not for this old body, but 'skating' with dogs is great exercise and looks to be a lot of fun.
As for him not bringing the ball back, I play 'two ball' , exchange or give a treat or another high value item in exchange for the ball. When he does let go of the ball in exchange for the other item, make it a really big deal, 'yeah, good dog, good boy, ya hooo'... you get the picture!


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## David Berraco (Dec 19, 2007)

Thank you Sharon.

It was interesting to read how you hide the food before feeding. I started doing the same a couple of weeks ago. I put the bowl on top of the microwave which is on top of the fridge, the dog was put away when I did this. When I did bring him out he found the bowl quickly and spend the rest of his time sitting in front of the fridge looking up. It surprised me and at the same time didn't because I always try to keep in mind how we're not really aware of the degree to which a dog uses his nose. I put it there mostly to be out of reach because I don't want to deal with correcting him for jumping on counters at this point, I'd rather just avoid it. I was hoping a little though that he wouldn't find it that high up.. Putting it in the oven is a great idea. I think I will do that from now on.

Do you think our dogs are more prone to this behavior because of the raw food? My dog really loves it. I can imagine as it thaws it gradually gives out more and more smell. Must be maddening to the dog. Mind you I've been feeding raw for a long time and with quite a few dogs. I have not had this reaction yet. Some of them were puppies so maybe it was a matter of being accustomed. This dog was raised with kibble so the raw food may be very high value? I had another adult male rott just before this one. He had very strong food drive but did not become agitated before feeding. But then my current boy is different in many ways from all the dogs I had previously.

I find that one feeding a day makes it easier to judge the correct amount to maintain the dog in the condition I want. I may have to give some serious thought to splitting the meal though. At the least a meaty bone to work on around lunch time..



Sharon Adams said:


> I will walk her wearing her weight pull harness , letting her pull about 10 pounds of weight


10lb, is this a typo? I have a harness and I'm thinking of letting him pull me. That would be around 200lb. Thanks again for the many suggestions on exercise. Some of them are not applicable to my situation. Most regrettably the bicycle thing. Where I live the streets don't have side walks so I have to ride on the road. Drivers here are dangerous, you never know what they're on especially at night. It is not reasonable to run the dog during the day as it's just too hot. 

What is the flirt pole made of? Is it held in the ground the same as a fence post? Would it have to be made in different strengths for different weight dogs? Sounds similar to something hanging off a tree branch with a spring. I know pit bulls love this. I'll have to try it with my dog.


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## Sharon Adams (Nov 6, 2007)

I, too, have kibble fed dogs gone raw here. Your'e right, it must be frustrating /maddedning for the dogs to smell it and can't get to it. But, like I stated, since I started dividing their meals, they are not as ravenous and it does seem to help here. Plus, the plastic containers and setting it in the oven or cupboard all benefit.
I will also take out a few days worth of meals, let it thaw in the fridge, then pull out what I need, put it in a plastic bag/container, run it under warm water, then let it sit in the water till it is ready, which is usually not longer then 15 minutes.
No that was not a typo,(the 10 pounds) I let her pull 10-15 pounds, will put on her weight pull harness, then add either chains or milk jugs filled with sand or water and let her drag that when we go out on long walk, it will wear her out faster, as I cannot walk far enough myself to wear her out.
I will send you a private message on how to make a 'flirt' pole, what your talking about is a 'spring pole' (where it is attached to a tree or fence post and has a heavy duty garage door spring ).
I do have a pit bull, but I did keep a friend's two rottweilers while he was deployed and they both very much enjoyed playing with a flirt pole.
(they were awfully tough on the barn cats though :-\" )


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Sharon Adams said:


> I will send you a private message on how to make a 'flirt' pole,



I just use an old Shakespeare Ugly Stick.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Connie Sutherland said:


> I just use an old Shakespeare Ugly Stick.


I am sooooo not gonna touch that one!  :lol: :lol: :wink:


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Nancy Jocoy said:


> I know a lot of folks don't like "two ball" but it sure worked for getting the dogs to bring the balls back. Why is that? Perhaps it is not good for competition dogs?


Why do folks not like two ball?


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## David Berraco (Dec 19, 2007)

I don't like it because I don't want to be stuck soliciting a behavior from a dog. If you've played with a natural retriever you know they will push you to throw the ball for them not vice versa. It's like always having to make prey movements to keep a low drive dog interested in bitework.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Ok, still don't understand why training the retrieve vs a natural retreve is a problem, but that is certainly your call - but it is not like I break out the balls and the dogs go "oh shit, we have to play this stupid game"  They are besides themselves and are usually barking at the ball bucket and always end the game wanting more. 

That said - Another good way to "wear out" a dog is by playing scent games it does not give the physical excercise but it does seem to wear them out. So does obedience for that matter somewhat.

I concur on feeding twice a day. We do our heavy excercise, rest them for about 45 minutes, then feed them and so the same in the evening. The evening meal is about 2/3 of the daily intake.

Some things I learned with small kids. 

My kids learned from day 1 that the crate was the dogs crate and not a playhouse (no matter how cute)

The raw food - just realize that salmonella IS a very real risk for your toddler even though it may not be for the dog. 

We never played rambunctious dog cames around the kids, though when they were older (5 and up) we did start incorporating hide and seek games etc. We started my kids doing minor obedience with the dogs around 3. (sit down come)

Dogs do seem to differentiate kids from adults - and play more gently with them.


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## David Berraco (Dec 19, 2007)

Nancy Jocoy said:


> Dogs do seem to differentiate kids from adults - and play more gently with them.


I agree that dogs differentiate kids from adults. Since I've had my daughter and could watch the interaction daily, every dog and puppy starts out by seeing the child as a play/prey object. This does not constitute being gentle. All had to be corrected and hard. I'm still waiting for the dog that will on his own perceive the child as someone to be gentle with. I don't think it's a reasonable expectation from a dog that has decent drive. Maybe it is a natural quality in some of the molosser breeds, stock guardians like the great pyranees, newfoundland dog etc. It may also be more of a female quality. For my male rottweilers gentleness comes about later because the dog understands that I will not tolerate rough playing with the child. I thought this was important enough to mention.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

David Berraco said:


> I thought this was important enough to mention.


It was, IMHO. I almost posted before in reply to "Dogs do seem to differentiate kids from adults - and play more gently with them.."

Not something to expect or count on.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Connie Sutherland said:


> It was, IMHO. I almost posted before in reply to "Dogs do seem to differentiate kids from adults - and play more gently with them.."
> 
> Not something to expect or count on.


Definately not!
My oldest daughter had a huge Rotty that was the gentlest dog I've ever seen around kids. Her second dog (Pit) absolutely loved kids but was the proverbial Bull in a china shop". Had absloutely no spacial body awareness. 
It's a natural thing that, IMHO, can't really be trained. They have it or don't.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

I have seen it with some I have had in the past and it was magical.... maybe since I had small kids while we had them from puppy to adult it was something I worked out without knowing I had or could be the dogs were not the prey monsters I now have.

Honestly, my youngest learned to walk with the help of one such dog as a pull up and slow walking aid.

In fairness the dogs I had while MY kids were small were not high drive dogs but we trained the kids from day one not to run and squeal around a dog, any dog and to only throw things in a supervised situation. We picked that up with the grandkids (teach the little kids too) and only one dog is out at a time under direct verbal control. and visual monitoring. 

My main concern is bumping into the child or grabbing a toy. I have never seen any signs of aggression towards the children.


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## David Berraco (Dec 19, 2007)

This thread has been helpful to me in defining the problem I'm having with this dog. Firstly because I realized that it is a problem, I like to think that I have everything under control, at least theoretically when it comes to dogs.. 

This is what I have so far.
1. The problem is a general excited state most evident by panting.
2. I believe the cause is due to some stimulation rather than simply lack of exercise. I see this dog in transition from a normal calm state to an agitated state in a matter of minutes without being focused on anything in particular.
3. The possible reasons for the agitated state are the presence of the child, presence of food or general activity in the household.
4. While admittedly the dog is not getting enough exercise at this time it is not the cause of the agitated state. I was however impulsed to come up with some form of exercise that would work with this dog and my situation.

I have no solution at this time other than putting him in the outdoor run for a large part of the day. He calms down in there quickly and strangely is not alert or responsive to anything that goes on near the property (the run is right alongside the house). Whereas inside the house he is quick to run to the window and growl and bark at the slightest of noises.


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## David Berraco (Dec 19, 2007)

Another good reason that was suggested and I'm now watching closely is wanting to go outside to eliminate or just wanting to go outside.


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

maybe he just needs to go out to decompress from all the activity in the house. maybe that's why he calms in his outside kennel--reduced stimulation. and b/c he's new at your house, probably not used to being around a little human that acts wild, some down time outside might be a good way to acclimatize him to changing stuff in the house. JMO


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## David Berraco (Dec 19, 2007)

I agree with your line of reasoning. One twist on this though is that he's crazy to go back to the house. When I open the kennel door he darts right to the front door. If it's open he'll go right in the house, if it's closed he'll stand in front of it and paw at it until I open it. I can tell him to out and he'll stop and lie down in front of the door. This will happen every time and regardless of how long he's been in the run.

The other issue is that it makes no sense for me to keep him in the run when I want him getting familiar and comfortable with all the goings on of the house.

I have to say that this dog is beyond my experience and has me puzzled.

I have one last clue that I'm exploring. He is showing some strong herding tendencies. Not only what he started doing with the child but his behavior around other dogs. I suspect that his herding instinct kicks in around the child and I suppressed it by correcting him to keep away from the child. Maybe he is in a constant state of limiting himself from engaging the child and this is causing anxiety?


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

David Berraco said:


> 4. While admittedly the dog is not getting enough exercise at this time it is not the cause of the agitated state. I was however impulsed to come up with some form of exercise that would work with this dog and my situation.


Tired dog = much-less-agitated dog. :wink:


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## David Berraco (Dec 19, 2007)

Connie, the panting was getting to me one night so I took him for a run with the bike. I'd say roughly 2km at a comfortable trotting pace with two stops along the way to eliminate. 2km is not a huge distance but from a dog that has never done it I'd expect him to drop on the floor and chill out after we were done. Not him, the panting and the excitability continued when we got home and after.

The only time I've seen him calm down completely and relax when in this state is when he played with a couple of other dogs for an hour. The problem with that is that he tries to herd other dogs, he'll harass them until they start to move by barking and then chase them in an arc. The other owners perceive this as aggression and don't like it. I don't blame them and will not bring him around other dogs any more. There's this one brown standard poodle with a curly afro all over that draws his attention more than any other dog. Maybe he looks like a sheep to my dog.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

susan tuck said:


> I myself don't have kids, so probably my reaction is overly cautious.


Not to me. These posts scared me:

"That aside there are times when he is excited and focused on the child. 

I let the dog do his thing a few times to see how far he will go. 

He was reacting to movement from the child and was starting to perceive it as a play object. The dog would run after the child and crowd it. 

When it got too pushy I corrected him. 

Like I said it wasn't difficult to make him understand and the change is permanent. What's left still is the dog focusing on toys that the child is playing with. 

He will simply take the toys away from the child and carry them to his spot. This for a reason I'm not sure about required numerous corrections. It is also more or less under control but I really hated correcting the dog for it. Maybe it was my lack of decisiveness in the matter that made the issue more difficult to resolve.

Keeping the child completely away from the dog is not an option and I don't want to crate the dog for a large part of the day."


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Not to me. These posts scared me:
> 
> "That aside there are times when he is excited and focused on the child.
> 
> ...


Add to those comments:
"I have to say that this dog is beyond my experience and has me puzzled."

David, you need to get rid of that dog!!


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## David Berraco (Dec 19, 2007)

LOL pack behavior at its finest.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

David Berraco said:


> LOL pack behavior at its finest.


Are you kidding?


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

This board is known much more for its disagreements than for follow-the-leader.


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## Matthew Grubb (Nov 16, 2007)

Bad juju when the dog perceives the child as a prey item. You really have to be on your toes when you bring an adult dog into your home… you inadvertently will ALWAYS at some point pay for the mistakes the prior owner made with the dog.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Very well said.


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## David Berraco (Dec 19, 2007)

The problem has been solved. On to the now pleasant journey with this dog.


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## David Berraco (Dec 19, 2007)

So what does one need to do to get banned from this joke forum?

Connie, you’re a freakin’ schitzo, I understand this usually happens after menopause.

Bob Scott, you’re a whiny girlie man.

David Frost, Tim Martens, you remind me of that scene in Men in black where J gets selected out of a group state produced automatons.

Mike Schoonbrood, did you start this forum? I guess you did it to learn something, keep going baby!

What all of you have in common that you know shit about dogs, yet you don’t let anyone’s voice but your own be heard.

To the silent majority.. you should speak up. These clowns are nobodies without the stage you provide for them.

BTW Berraco is the Cuban name for triggerfish, one that I like to hunt.

http://aycu30.webshots.com/image/39189/2001532974285302167_rs.jpg

Ciao sapingos.


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