# It has begun



## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

Well I finally got motivated enough to try to get Jak started in tracking. I did it just like the article on Schutzhund Village detailed - doing a square with pieces of non smelly kibble inside. It rained today, which helped me to see the edges of the square. I took Jak to it, pointed to the ground inside the square, and told him "Such" and he took right to it. Even though this was the first time he'd ever done this, he ignored when a car drove by us and the VERY ANNOYING neighbor kid that won't leave us alone any time we're outside. I only had to redirect him once, and after that, when he came to the edge of the square, he turned around on his own and went back into it! I praised him, let him sniff for a few more seconds, and then pulled him out and we ran around the yard and played with his tire for a few minutes. I never expected our first time to go so well. Next time will probably be horrible. 

:lol:


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## Phil Dodson (Apr 4, 2006)

Don't get negitive now! He might just surprise you again. The biggest obstacles you face are going to be patience, frustration and attempting to progress too fast.


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

I'll be starting tracking with my lil girl tomorrow morning... should be interesting, considering I've never trained tracking before and have very little clue of where I would start with this -- people have explained it to me so I get the jist of it, but I'm a hands-on kinda guy, I needa DO something to learn it.

So for now I will say... keep at it and have fun! And tomorrow I may change my tune  Her bitework was good today though, her 2nd "formal" bite training session.


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## Mark Connolly (Jun 19, 2006)

Just remember that the biggest thing that will set you back is to progress to fast. Have patience as Phil stated and take your time. Tracking can be loads of fun.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Good article in the Schutzhund village site. 
Did anyone mention to have patience?  :wink:


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Although my tracking is more police oriented, I still think tracking is some of the most fun you can have with your clothes on. Keeping it fun for both you and the dog, pays enourmous benefits.

DFrost


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

David Frost said:


> Although my tracking is more police oriented, I still think tracking is some of the most fun you can have with your clothes on. Keeping it fun for both you and the dog, pays enourmous benefits.
> 
> DFrost


I was just emailing Mike that the funnest training I have done are obedience and tracking!


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

David Frost said:


> Although my tracking is more police oriented, I still think tracking is some of the most fun you can have with your clothes on. Keeping it fun for both you and the dog, pays enourmous benefits.
> 
> DFrost


Tracking with your clothes off is REEEELY not much fun in the woods. Poison ivy is bad this year.  :wink:


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

<<<<Poison ivy is bad this year.>>>>

Not to mention chiggers. Ahhhhh the joys of tracking.

DFrost


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

LOL Bob!

I plan on staying with squares for a while. I'm in no hurry to get to long tracks just yet, especially since, like you, Mike, I haven't ever trained tracking before and have no idea what to do other than what the Schutzhund Village article says, and what other people tell me. I'm also a visual, "show me and then let me do it" kind of learner. 

Mike, let us know how Lyka does!!


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

Yesterday I did another square. Jak did well again. He did wander out of the square a step or two one time, but then seemed to realize that he was in the wrong place and went back to the square, at which point I praised him, pulled him out, and took him for a walk around the neighborhood before giving him his supper. The forecast is calling for rain for the rest of the week, so I don't know when I'll get to do another. :? 

So far, so good, for a newbie!


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Be carefull about staying in the square too long. Dogs sometime think that's all they have to do when they get there and they quit. What I would do is, after a fee squares, start laying short foot step tracks ( ten feet) with a treat at the toe of each step. ( They have to sniff through the foot step to get their reward.) Remember to use your flag at the start. Get them use to the flag being there.


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

Can someone please explain this "Squares" thing to me? Either it's more advanced than the first steps we are doing with my dogs, or it's a different technique... just curious!


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

I hope this isn't an extremely dumb question, but does the flag need to be any particular color? The reason I ask is because I use white flags to mark the boundary of the yard, and I don't want to confuse him. :? 

Also, exactly where does the flag go; at the first footstep??

I may just wait until you or someone else at club can show me, before I do anything more than the squares.

Mike, see http://www.schutzhundvillage.com/nose1.html and http://www.schutzhundvillage.com/nose2.html


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Mike Schoonbrood said:


> Can someone please explain this "Squares" thing to me? Either it's more advanced than the first steps we are doing with my dogs, or it's a different technique... just curious!


QUOTE (Armin Winkler): Here is a technique that I have had good success with.  I trample an area that measures approximately one and a half body lengths of the dog by one and a half body lengths of the dog.  So the size of the dog determines the size of the square.  I trample the entire area down, so that every inch of the inside of this square has disturbed ground. END QUOTE

This is from Schutzhund Village at 
http://www.schutzhundvillage.com/nose1.html


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

The way my trainer is teaching me tracking with 100% beginner dogs is basically "you can use a flag if you want but its not important", he doesn't use the flag at all, we only used one because a club member had one with them n offered to use it.... but he basically rubs his feet in the grass n drops a few pieces of hotdog where he rubbed his feet n we tell the dog "zoeken!" n praise for sniffing around the footstep area.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jerry Lyda said:


> Be carefull about staying in the square too long. Dogs sometime think that's all they have to do when they get there and they quit. What I would do is, after a fee squares, start laying short foot step tracks ( ten feet) with a treat at the toe of each step. ( They have to sniff through the foot step to get their reward.) Remember to use your flag at the start. Get them use to the flag being there.


How many is a few? A few days of squares?


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

> he basically rubs his feet in the grass n drops a few pieces of hotdog where he rubbed his feet n we tell the dog "zoeken!" n praise for sniffing around the footstep area.


Which is better; stomping or rubbing your feet? This is addressed to anyone who wants to answer, in response to what Mike said.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Kristen Cabe said:


> > he basically rubs his feet in the grass n drops a few pieces of hotdog where he rubbed his feet n we tell the dog "zoeken!" n praise for sniffing around the footstep area.
> 
> 
> Which is better; stomping or rubbing your feet? This is addressed to anyone who wants to answer, in response to what Mike said.


Uh-oh. I guess I need this answer too. I thought it was whatever it took to flatten the area.


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

When I laid a track for a tracking dog a few months ago I basically dragged my feet along the grass n spat every 4 or 5 ft, so my trainer obviously is more into the rubbing than the stomping.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Ok, I'll try to answer all these questions.

Kristen's question,Which is better; stomping or rubbing your feet? 
 It doesn't matter. What you are doing is making a scent pad. You disturb the ground so that it smells different than the surrounding area. I don't like a whole lot of scuffing with a more experienced dog. A little scuffing with a young dog is ok. I like to stomp it in.

Connie asked, How many is a few? A few days of squares?
Yes, only a few days. Then start to make the area smaller.

Mike said,The way my trainer is teaching me tracking with 100% beginner dogs is basically "you can use a flag if you want but its not important", he doesn't use the flag at all, we only used one because a club member had one with them n offered to use it.... 
Mike I always start with a flag right off the bat. Try to make it as simple as possible. If the dog sees a flag everytime he want worry about a flag being there at a later date. And to the dog will learn when he comes up to the track he knows it starts right here with no questions asked from him. This is where it has always been.

Kristen asked,I hope this isn't an extremely dumb question, but does the flag need to be any particular color? The reason I ask is because I use white flags to mark the boundary of the yard, and I don't want to confuse him. 
What I use is an arrow with colored ribbon tied to it. Don't use white for the very reasons you said. Anyone else could use white. I like the arrow because anyone else in our club knows that that is my track. I tape a short piece of cloths hannger wire to the bottom so it pushes into the groung easy. ( Georgia red clay)

Kristen again,Also, exactly where does the flag go; at the first footstep?? 
The flag goes to the left of the scent pad. The dog will associate it with the start of the track.
Kristen said, It rained today, which helped me to see the edges of the square. 
The flag will always let you know TOO where the track is.

Mike asked,Can someone please explain this "Squares" thing to me? Either it's more advanced than the first steps we are doing with my dogs, or it's a different technique... just curious!
Different technique. Some people use a triangle with the point pointing towards the track.

When I start a new dog I go to the area I want to lay the track. I take the dog with me and have someone hold him about six feet from the flag. I make my scent pad and make sure he is watching me. I will turn to him and toss him a piece of hot dog. That's what I use. I'll take a step out of the scent pad and place treat at the toe of that foot. I take another step and place treat at the toe of that step and on and on.I'll go about ten steps and place a small pile of hot dogs. This is his reward for following the track.At the beginning I stay beside the dog to block him from wondering off the track. When he's off I say ( find it in what ever language your are using) or point to the next hot dog and say the command. NO CORRECTIONS. Keep it on a nice even kill. Don't upset him let him work.
After he has finished the small reward pile of hot dogs I play ball with him. He needs to enjoy tracking. You are just directing the dogs natural ability and it must be fun for him.


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

One more question for today. :lol: 

How long should the square be aged initially, vs. when you actually start laying a track? These first two squares I've only let sit for about 15-20 minutes.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Wow, THANKS, Jerry! 

This answers every question I have had so far.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

That's 15 to 20 min. to long. Go right to it. Let him watch you lay it, with someone holding his leash.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Hi I just wanted to reiterate what Jerry said about letting the dog watch you lay the track. That's really important with pups/young dogs. Mike, you may want to do as I am doing with Arkane. When he is on the track, I keep him between my legs & also track with two lines on the collar then run one under each front leg. These two things give me extra control, prevents turning back. At the end of the track, I pull out the ball from my pocket instead of putting it at the end of the track because he is hard enough to control without seeing the ball ahead of him! Mine is loving tracking so far, & at this point I think it is very important for tracking to be a positive experience every time with pups/young dogs. 

I am doing big sweeping serpentines. I did throw in an actual turn the other day, which Arkane had no problem with, but I have gone back to serpentines, because as Jerry said, (I think it was Jerry) it's a big mistake to rush things (which I have to constantly tell myself not to do). :roll:


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

No wasn't me be I agree very very much. I believe that you can loose a dog by going to fast (with his training). I had rather take my time and lay a great foundation. Something you can build on.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Down here in Georgia the fire ants are terrible. It's hard to track with hot dogs. Fire ants likes them almost as much as they like bitting me. Does anyone know of a treat home made or not that fire ants don't do back flips for?


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Have you tried "Rollover" or "Natural Balance Rolls"? If not, give it a try. It comes in sausage like chubbs. You don't have to refrigerate it it, & it is a lot dryer than hot dogs. I just slice it & cube it into little tiny bits, throw it into a baggie & use it instead of hot dogs. I used it with Zorba & didn't have a problem with regular ants. I don't know about fire ants, except for a National Geographic documentary I saw & they scared the crap out of me!


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jerry Lyda said:


> Down here in Georgia the fire ants are terrible. It's hard to track with hot dogs. Fire ants likes them almost as much as they like bitting me. Does anyone know of a treat home made or not that fire ants don't do back flips for?


Freeze-dried liver? I buy it, but I know people who make it, too. I'm guessing that the bought kind might be less appealing to ants, since it has minimal odor and no moisture.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Jerry Lyda said:
> 
> 
> > Down here in Georgia the fire ants are terrible. It's hard to track with hot dogs. Fire ants likes them almost as much as they like bitting me. Does anyone know of a treat home made or not that fire ants don't do back flips for?
> ...


Or would it be too low-odor to use for tracking.....?


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

The dog has to like it as well as hot dogs. The oder is the crushed vegetation or disturbed dirt that leads to a reward. It's hard to beat a good old hot dog.
I'll try the Freeze-dried liver, Rollover,and the Natural Balance Rolls. Out of these Lexus is sure to like one of them.

This is Lexus


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Excellent posts Jerry. The only thing I differ (not disagree) is the scent pad. I have no problem with working just scent pads on occasion. Maybe not necessary. Maybe I'm to lazy to lay a full track  :lol: but I haven't seen any problems with the dog quitting on them. I always take the dog away before it finds all the food. That always seems to build frustration to continue.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jerry Lyda said:


> The dog has to like it as well as hot dogs. The oder is the crushed vegetation or disturbed dirt that leads to a reward. It's hard to beat a good old hot dog.
> I'll try the Freeze-dried liver, Rollover,and the Natural Balance Rolls. Out of these Lexus is sure to like one of them.
> 
> This is Lexus


Lexus wants a bigger picture posted!  

My dogs looooove freeze-dried liver.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Do you guys think sometimes it's a balancing act in which the most important thing is the ability to read your dog? I do. It's really hard to explain in words. You have to be able to read the young dogs' body language, eyes, etc., so you can don't take them to the point of wanting to quit, but not so "up" they go over the edge & lose their little minds! That is for me, the fun & challenge of tracking. It's so cool when you see the "lightbulb" go on in their eyes when they "get" it.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Bob
I was talking in general. I never just use a scent pad. I work my dogs from the pad to a track. The tracks are short but never just a scent pad. I was thinking in the lines as if you work the pad and then stop and play, wouldn't you think that the dog would think that's all he has to do to play. I can just see in my minds eye a dog that would quit at the pad and want to play. That, I would think would be confussing to the dog. I think, you take him to the scent pad and let him pick up the treats and move forward and he finds more. This is what you want the dog to do later so why not teach him that up front?


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Susan wrote, Do you guys think sometimes it's a balancing act in which the most important thing is the ability to read your dog? I do. It's really hard to explain in words. You have to be able to read the young dogs' body language, eyes, etc., 

I do agree with what you say except the eyes part. They are located on the other end of the dog that I'm looking at during a track :lol: 
But yes you do have to read your dog. That's why I don't do just scent pads. He muct go on from there to get his reward at the end. Very short tracks. I may have him do two or three short tracks per session. I'll be building him up between each one when he's watching me lay it with someone holding him.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Yes, I guess it is impossible to look at the eyes when tracking!

Also, once again, I want to thank Bob for saving my back by telling me about using a piece of pvc pipe to drop food onto the footsteps. Not only does it save my back, but I sure can lay a track much faster using this method.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Understood! 
My thoughts are that I don't move off of a scent pad until I see the dog really understand the concept of the disturbed ground. When I see the dog turn away from the edges, then I start laying the tracks away from the box. 
Also, when I pull them off of the box, they get crated.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Susan, I can't take credit for the PVC pipe. That was shown to me some years ago. Aside from saving my back, it certainly does make track laying faster.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jerry Lyda said:


> ..... I may have him do two or three short tracks per session. ...


How short is short?


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

10 to 15 steps


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

QUOTE JERRY: "After he has finished the small reward pile of hot dogs I play ball with him. He needs to enjoy tracking. You are just directing the dogs natural ability and it must be fun for him." END QUOTE

This has been my confusion. How do I let the dog know that we're done with the track? In USAR training, Riot always knew he'd done his job because he got his tug toy after finding and alerting on the victim. So far for tracking, I've been using a very small reward pile of hot dogs at the end too, but don't play with him or give him a tug. I just say, "Good boy. Free!" and walk him away. He seems confused and, of course, has no intention of stopping his search for the hot dogs. As we walk back to his crate, he keeps his head down searching the grass for any signs of my footsteps. God forbid we come across any of my footsteps on the way back, because then I have to forcibly remove him from them (which isn't easy in really wet grass). 

Will he eventually understand that we're done, or is there a better way to let him know its over and he's done a good job?


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

Jerry Lyda said:


> Down here in Georgia the fire ants are terrible. It's hard to track with hot dogs. Fire ants likes them almost as much as they like bitting me. Does anyone know of a treat home made or not that fire ants don't do back flips for?


I just use kibble. The pet store I get my dog food from has free sample packs of Wysong, Solid Gold, Canidae, and Diamond, and that's what I've been using as bait.




> Let him watch you lay it, with someone holding his leash.


I'll have to figure out a way to do this, since it's usually only me that's there. I may have to just tie him to a fence post or something.




> > Freeze-dried liver? I buy it, but I know people who make it, too. I'm guessing that the bought kind might be less appealing to ants, since it has minimal odor and no moisture.
> 
> 
> Or would it be too low-odor to use for tracking.....?



According to Armin Winkler, you don't _want_ something with a lot of odor (like hot dogs); you want the dog to smell the disturbed ground _before_ he smells the bait. That's why I'm using kibble. Plus, Jak could smell out a single piece of kibble laying in the yard from across the yard, so I don't NEED to use anything smelly. :lol:


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

I don't use kibble because the dog has to chew it. I use really small bits of Rollover, like the size of half a pea! This stuff just slides on down!


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

susan tuck said:


> I don't use kibble because the dog has to chew it.



He does? Maybe someone should tell HIM that! :lol: He does chew his food when I feed him out of a bowl, but any other time, he just swallows whatever it is whole, without chewing. I don't know how familiar you are with the kibbles I mentioned, but all of them are very small - about pea-sized - not like most kibble, which is more marble sized.


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