# Asking Ms Law for Assistance



## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

I have been a dog trainer for quite a few years. Some will say I'm a know-it-all, and while I appreciate the flattery, I really know I'm not. I do however, (he says not so modestly) know quite a lot within my area of expertise. I also recognize the fact that dog trainers that want to be different or having something to see, just don't get recognized when they regurgitate the same terms, language etc. More often than not, when they introduce their "new and improved" training techniques etc, I'm able to separated the wheat from the chaff. That being said, would you please expand your particular method of training where you state: "My background includes training and competeing by utilizing instinct; and training tasks by suppressing instinct until tasks are well ingrained, allowing a modified version of natural instinct to enhance work at a later time."

Thank you.

DFrost


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## Sue DiCero (Sep 2, 2006)

My favorites fall within the paper certifications, inferences of being a police officer and/or k9 officer (and not even going through the police academy) and sport experience that is not validated by competitions (top trainer in XXXXX).


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

say what? Ok must have missed the back story on that one.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Nancy Jocoy said:


> say what? Ok must have missed the back story on that one.


Here you go Nancy
http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f20/new-texas-24128/#post343521


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

??? wasn't David's Q about dog training methods ???

funny, but i opened this thread because i thought he was asking for legal advice //lol//

but after reading the Q it got me to thinking ... just exactly how many different kinds of "dog training" systems ARE there ?? 

after giving it some serious thought i can only come up with two so far, or maybe three, but maybe the answer to his Q will expand my own limited knowledge of dog training


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

David Frost said:


> "My background includes training and competeing by utilizing instinct; and training tasks by suppressing instinct until tasks are well ingrained, allowing a modified version of natural instinct to enhance work at a later time."
> 
> Thank you.
> 
> DFrost


 
Hey, you have more clout so maybe she'll explain for you. 

T


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Hey, you have more clout so maybe she'll explain for you.
> 
> T


Terrasita

I don't think even Davids clout will help get an explanation.
The Law intro was pure unadulterated BS IMO


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Lets give Law a chance! :wink:


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> Lets give Law a chance! :wink:


Hell NO
I gave peace a chance and look where that got us? ;-)


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Hell NO
> I gave peace a chance and look where that got us? ;-)


All we are sayingggggggggg (everybody link arms and sway to the music)


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## Jim Engel (Nov 14, 2007)

*New training methods about to be revealed....*

Every time this sort of thing comes up, I think of the Konrad Most book
of 1910; while there have been significant advances in abstract knowledge,
from Lorenz and others, it is surprising how much was in place early on.

It is true that in the very early years food training meant avoidance, that is,
poison proofing the dog, and the use of play or retrieve objects did not seem
to be part of this world.

But the question becomes, is this real progress ? Or are these methods 
adapted to sport trial performance much less relevant to training for real
service in an unscripted world?


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

Jim....
...maybe this is a bit "philosophical"

... i think canine "training methods" used by humans have evolved over the years, but the way a dog learns has not  
- not much change in that small lump of grey matter since we first lured em into our villages
- i'm one who thinks they process information and feedback from us in much the same way they always have, no matter whether we call it training or not
- biggest challenge for them now might be how to adapt to the environments they now have to live in :-(


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## Keith Jenkins (Jun 6, 2007)

Rick that was one of the best posts I've seen in quite some time. =D>


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

btw Jim
while we're waiting for Ms Law to check back in .....

what exactly do you mean by progress ??
.... r u referring to us or the dog ??


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## Steve Estrada (Mar 6, 2011)

Wow the best entertainment I've had in awhile just laughing my back-end off. But I'm with Jim in keeping an open mind, having expectations has always caused problems for me  Thanks to all who contributed & David for initiating.....


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

"My background includes training and competeing by utilizing instinct; and training tasks by suppressing instinct until tasks are well ingrained, allowing a modified version of natural instinct to enhance work at a later time."

sounds like regular old dog training to me...


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## Craig Snyder (May 7, 2012)

> "My background includes training and competeing by utilizing instinct; and training tasks by suppressing instinct until tasks are well ingrained, allowing a modified version of natural instinct to enhance work at a later time.".


You know, I could almost interpret this as: 

"I beat the MF'er until he stops doing what he normally does and does what I want him do.. Once his natural instinct to live kicks in, he'll remember to do what I say next time!"

Not exactly my choice for training.

Craig


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

sounds like it could also describe just about almost every other method of training, or task that a dog is trained for.


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## Skip Morgart (Dec 19, 2008)

The trick of covering everything, and absolutely nothing at the same time.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

I give her an A+ for language flair and since I'm open minded and don't assume, would LOVE to see her further expound on instinct suppression and in what context. As for Konrad Most--positive reinforcement and positive punishment. The only thing that has happened since is adoption of one quandrant or the other and putting their own spin on it for marketing. As for whether the dogs are better or worse, that has nothign to do with training with food or toys. What has mostly changed in the dogs is emphasis on one drive or the other and achieving a certain "look." And if we really want to light the fire, some no longer care about certain instincts, intelligence, loyalty, etc. And no, I don't just mean stock.

Terrasita


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## Jim Engel (Nov 14, 2007)

rick smith said:


> btw Jim
> while we're waiting for Ms Law to check back in .....
> 
> what exactly do you mean by progress ??
> .... r u referring to us or the dog ??


Rick,
Scientists such as Konrad Lorenz, Pavlov, Coppinger,
and others have published a lot of serious research
over the last century that does bring clarity and insight
into behavior issues such as aggression and so forth.

Reading their reports does not necessarily translate into
10 more trial points, but I guess I am basically just a student
at heart, believe that all knowledge is worthwhile in and
of itself, even if not applicable in immediately apparent ways.

As an example, as an engineering student many years ago
I thought mathematical theory of prime numbers was just
esoteric, without any "real world" applications.

But today this is behind the security systems that make
internet security and commerce possible.
Jim


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I can only hope I never stop learning. I doubt two people here train exactly alike and everyone might have something worth listening to.


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