# Introducing to a cat



## Mike Schoonbrood

I have the opportunity to bring my 10.5 week old pup around cats tonight -- our idea was to put the cat in a cat carrier and just watch the puppies reaction to the cat from a distance then if all is well, bring the puppy closer to investigate the cat.

What should I do if the puppy goes psycho at the cat? Is this whole cat carrier thing a bad idea? Does anyone have any better ideas on how to introduce a puppy to a cat?

I'm not a cat person myself, but I figure take this opportunity to introduce puppy to cat while she's still small :lol:


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## Patrick Murray

I think the idea is to socialize and condition the pup to anything and everything (well, maybe not radioactive waste :mrgreen, including cats and let the pup see that these things are not a threat nor are they a \"play\" or \"prey\" item. In my opinion, and some people might want to lynch me for saying, but in my opinion a puppy needs to be \"guided\" and \"corrected\". If the pup was still with the mother the mother would certainly correct inappropriate behavior. Not to get off the point, but I think the term \"correction\" sometimes means different things to different people. To me it's simply a re-direction of focus or activity and not necessarily a punishment, although it can be as I would define it. Anyway, in my opinion it would be ok for the pup to display normal, natural curiosity about a cat or anything else. It's healthy and good, to a point. We expose our pups to various settings, animals, etc. so that later in life they are accustomed to it and will be neutral to it. We don't want the dog to go into drive when it sees a cat somewhere just like we don't want the dog to freak out when it sees someone in an electric wheelchair for the first time. Hence, socialization. Just like we would \"correct\" our 5-year old child for blatantly staring at a disfigured human being, we should \"correct\" or \"redirect\" the pup's behavior away from wanting to play with a strange cat. So again, in my opinion, it's ok and healthy for the pup to show interest and curiosity but it's not ok for the pup to want to play with or chase the cat. The pup must learn to be neutral around cats that it will undoubtedly encounter many times in life.


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## Kristen Cabe

When I tried to introduce Jak to my cats, at 5 months old, he went ballistic barking at them, and even very strong prong corrections didn't work to make him stop. In fact, he just yelped and kept right on trying to go after the cat, which decided he'd had enough of that and took off. If he knew there was a cat under the couch, for example, he would circle the couch until I finally made him stop. If I redirected his attention with a treat, he took the treat and went right back to focusing on the cat again. If I put him in his crate, whenever he would see the cat he would go ballistic again. :? After a few tries, and whenever my cats would refuse to come upstairs at all, I decided to stop trying and wait until I could fry him with the ecollar for going after the cats. 

I sure hope your experience is better!!


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## Bob Scott

Although I think the average  dogs can learn to get along with cats, I feel that dogs bred with the intense drives many working dogs have couldn't be totally trusted with cats. 
IMHO, the average cat will make a fool out of the average dog. 
Mike, I seriously doubt you've got an average pup there. :lol: :lol: :wink:


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## Daryl Ehret

From the first moment I brought my new working pup home, I've worked with him around my cat. Sometimes he would ignore it, other times sniff it and chase a little. Redirecting his focus with a tug or rag for a while worked, later the cat applied his form of correction. Before, they could lay on the floor in the same room, and now it's escalated into full blown social aggression. Using a choke collar, while the cat sat and stared at him, he barked, growled, and snarled and eventually drew blood from the hand applying correction. An alpha roll subdued him somewhat and then back into agression again, lunging and barking. I've had him for three weeks now, and he's about 11 weeks old. Lately his dog agression is increasing toward pack members, and I'm having to pry him from the withers or legs of adult dogs (that thankfully don't defend in full force).

I've applied Konrad Most's technique for correcting "chicken agression" as applied to cats, using the choke chain, but I'm wondering if there's a better way. I don't want to ruin his drives or confidence, for schutzhund competition. It's appearing that he'll need to be crated during times he's not actually being worked.


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## Woody Taylor

Daryl Ehret said:


> I've applied Konrad Most's technique for correcting "chicken agression" as applied to cats, using the choke chain, but I'm wondering if there's a better way. I don't want to ruin his drives or confidence, for schutzhund competition. It's appearing that he'll need to be crated during times he's not actually being worked.


Sorry to be dumb here...chicken aggression? Just wondering what that was.

I've spent a long time getting the dog and cat used to each other. To Bob's point, I'd never trust a high-prey dog around any cat..for both of their sakes...last thing I want is a dead cat and a punctured dog eye.

It is interesting to me that all of the dog/cat intro stuff you read seems, to the most part, to ignore the temperment of the cat. I still have roaming cats come up to Annie (65 lbs) and me on our walks hissing and hackled up (this will last as long as Annie will tolerate it...they bail pretty quick when she lunges at them...but my overall point is that a territorial tom will probably make a fool of most puppies in a bad way). 

I think introducing a dog and cat should happen in an environment comfortable and natural for the cat yet new for the dog, and in the midst of distractions for the dog as folks above have described. Probably not in a crate but on a line so redirection is easy. And lots of scent before sight. JMHO based on my one experience and the stuff I read around it.

So anyway, now I have Annie (<12 mos) to the point where I'll put her in a down next to the cat and groom the cat, etc. This is tense for both of them but it's getting better. Still would never leave her alone with the cat.


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## Andres Martin

Yes. Make the cat very electric. And immediately re-focus your dog on a TASK, not a reward.

Basically, I want my dog to ignore all other animals.

In this country, in the rural areas, we must make apprehensions in the middle of pigs, cows, horses, cats, goats, other people, other dogs, garbage, etc. The dogs are taught to ignore these stimuli, and go for the man. This makes for some pretty interesting training scenarios. At least they're interesting to the other animals in the audience!!!

:lol:


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## Daryl Ehret

About the "chicken agression", that was just a bit I remembered from Most's book about how a dog that had killed some chickens was corrected for not only agressive behavior, but also just _looking at the chicken_ prompted a correction so that the association was made with "pain" and the dog learned that by not even looking, or pretending it wasn't there, the pain could be avoided. I haven't read an abundance on dog training as much as learning and behavior theory, so that was just what came to mind. I don't know for sure what today's common accepted methods are, except that everything seems to be motivational. Thought there might be something obvious to more experienced trainers that I'm not aware of.

I have about ten adults right now, some high drive, some aggressive in other focused ways. All of them have learned to coexist with the cat, either by ignoring it or engaging with it. This new pup is more extreme in his agression, and quite a new experience for me, but it makes me linger on Bob's comment about "bordering on tempermentally unsound" in the social agression thread. He's very smart, focused and obedient, so I won't worry too much.

In the past, training the dogs to deal with cats was sometimes challenging, the cat sometimes taunting, or making a game of chase from highground to highground. But in this instance the cat knows not to fool around with this one, and the only reason the two were that close together when the cat made the correction (probably two occasions) was because I couln't reach in time to redirect the pups attention. The pup is crated, I don't leave him alone with the cat.

I suppose I can recreate the scenario a few more times and he'll probably get it. It was just shocking to see him struggle so hard, despite the correction he underwent.


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## Woody Taylor

Thanks for the explanation, daryl. And I really like your dogs...particularly now that bob scott has given me a bad case of "sable envy." ;-)

Can you go halfway on that correction effectively? I don't mind if the cat and dof interact...they sniff each other, etc. What I don't want is annie standing over her (the cat won't move but will get ready for battle) or her bolting after the cat. I don't know if I can have it both ways.


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## Bob Scott

Mike,Woody! I'd still be very cautious about having a cat around a high drive dog.
BTW! How are they both doing with the cats?
Thunder has been trained from a pup to ignore any critters. He's been quite social with a buddy's wife's cat yet I'd never trust him to NOT give chase if the cat made sudden bolt. Could I stop him? Yes! On a dime! Would it be quick enough? Sure don't wanna finds out. Luckily this particular cat is about the laziest, who gives a $#!+ critter on four legs.
Pete, my JRT, hates cats, yet he's controlable if I'm right there.
Polly, my Border Terrier!  Not in your's and my life time would a cat be safe around her, under ANY situation. She's proven that to me with a few barn hunts for racoon.


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## Woody Taylor

Bob Scott said:


> BTW! How are they both doing with the cats?


They're fine, in my case. They're mostly separated by the maze of gates through the house. The cat has taken over one of the cribs--elevated and lots of bars so no dog harassment. We also feed her in an elevated place, etc. The dog does not have free run of the house, the cat does, etc....

So Mike, you initiated this thread back in mid-April, how did things go on your side.


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## Bob Scott

Mike now has to supply Lyca with fresh cat meat in order to keep her happy. :lol: :lol: :wink:


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## Woody Taylor

Bob Scott said:


> Mike now has to supply Lyca with fresh cat meat in order to keep her happy. :lol: :lol: :wink:


At least now I understand how she's able to do standing back flips in her crate. Sheesh. Cat meat! Innova just released a red meat version of Evo...I'll send that suggestion over to their customer service group....


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## Becky Shilling

> It is interesting to me that all of the dog/cat intro stuff you read seems, to the most part, to ignore the temperment of the cat




This a very key factor, IME. I have two cats, now. The kitty that we lost last year to old age LOVED dogs. Especially floppy eared dogs; he liked to nuzzle under their ears. The two cats we have now, one is not crazy about dogs, but she just vanishes into one of her hidey-holes when the dogs are around. Her name IS Ninja! (She watched her mother being torn apart, literally, by stray pits in our neighborhood, so you can't blame her); that's how we ended up keeping her. She was so nearly feral that we couldn't place her. 

Our other cat is fairly neutral to the dogs. The most important thing is that the cat not react aggresively to the dog; that turns on all the prey instincts and probably a little anger as well. Brago accepts cats as part of the landscape, he doesn't try to chase them or show an excessive amount of interest. Bronwyn is still such a baby that she tries to get Chubb to play with her, but he'll usually just bat her ears a couple times with his soft little de-clawed feet and then move out of reach. They are both very high-drive dogs.


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## Bob Scott

Excellent point! If the cat is going to panic and bolt every time it's exposed to the dog, you've got a long road to travel in keeping the dog calm.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote:It is interesting to me that all of the dog/cat intro stuff you read seems, to the most part, to ignore the temperment of the cat

Cats are dime a dozen, so who cares? If anyone has a shortage, trust me, I can fill it easily.

More dogs should train on cats, that way they can some sort of worth. Useless as rats, but breed more often.


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## Bob Scott

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote:It is interesting to me that all of the dog/cat intro stuff you read seems, to the most part, to ignore the temperment of the cat
> 
> Cats are dime a dozen, so who cares? If anyone has a shortage, trust me, I can fill it easily.
> 
> More dogs should train on cats, that way they can some sort of worth. Useless as rats, but breed more often.


HEY! :evil: Don't knock rats. They can be great training aids for terriers. :lol: :wink:


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## Kristen Cabe

Bob Scott said:


> Excellent point! If the cat is going to panic and bolt every time it's exposed to the dog, you've got a long road to travel in keeping the dog calm.


This is my problem, and why Jak has not been in the house since he was 5 months old.  My one cat (the declawed one) runs like hell if he so much as sees Jak through the storm door. My other cat is somewhat okay if Jak is at a distance, but he likes to hide under the couch and smack Jak from underneath it, which only makes Jak excited. If they are both out, though, and Jak gets too close and Spook smacks him (with claws), it also makes Jak more excited. I'm afraid if I want to keep Jak in the house it's going to take some serious compulsion to get him to ignore the cats. If I'd gotten him when he was younger, and not as able to hurt the cats, I think things would have gone a lot more smoothly.


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## Bob Scott

Kristen Cabe said:


> Bob Scott said:
> 
> 
> 
> Excellent point! If the cat is going to panic and bolt every time it's exposed to the dog, you've got a long road to travel in keeping the dog calm.
> 
> 
> 
> This is my problem, and why Jak has not been in the house since he was 5 months old.  My one cat (the declawed one) runs like hell if he so much as sees Jak through the storm door. My other cat is somewhat okay if Jak is at a distance, but he likes to hide under the couch and smack Jak from underneath it, which only makes Jak excited. If they are both out, though, and Jak gets too close and Spook smacks him (with claws), it also makes Jak more excited. I'm afraid if I want to keep Jak in the house it's going to take some serious compulsion to get him to ignore the cats. If I'd gotten him when he was younger, and not as able to hurt the cats, I think things would have gone a lot more smoothly.
Click to expand...

Just a thought. 
If you seriously need to expose the cats and dog, maybe you could talk with your vet about some mild tranquilizers for both. At least till they get through the initial exposures. 
When Thunder was on the tranquilizers during his heartworm recovery, I think If I dropped a bobcat on him, he would have kissed it on the mouth.  :lol: 
He looked like he was the star in an old Cheech and Chong movie. :roll:


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote:HEY! Don't knock rats. They can be great training aids for terriers. 

Just teach the stinkin cats to hide in holes. Certainly no shortage of that vermin.


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## Connie Sutherland

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote:HEY! Don't knock rats. They can be great training aids for terriers.
> 
> Just teach the stinkin cats to hide in holes. Certainly no shortage of that vermin.


Did you skip your nap today? :roll:


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## Bob Scott

Thanks Connie! :lol: 
I'm sitting here bitting my lip to keep this conversation from becomming PETA chowder. :lol: :lol: :lol: :wink:


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## Connie Sutherland

Bob Scott said:


> Thanks Connie! :lol:
> I'm sitting here bitting my lip to keep this conversation from becomming PETA chowder. :lol: :lol: :lol: :wink:


LOL!

Yes, sometimes a two-year-old just can't stand it when his outrageous behavior is ignored, and he has to do it again!

Not you, Jeff .... this is a different two-year-old. :lol: :twisted:


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## Lynn Cheffins

I think in some dogs the "window of opportunity" to introduce them to cats closes pretty early. The only dogs that I have had that were trustworthy with cats were introduced at early puppyhood. Mine don't do alot of barking and lunging but will often just lay quietly and you can HEAR the eye-stalk going on and see them tense up ready to grab it....
The last cat I had used to lie in front of the kennel gate and every eye was upon her.


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## Maren Bell Jones

> HEY! :evil: Don't knock rats. They can be great training aids for terriers. :lol: :wink:


I'd say don't knock rats period. I've had a total of 5 (have 2 currently) and hey are by far the best small animal pets. Hamsters are little incarnations of Satan, gerbils are meh, rabbits (especially my big dumb as a stump male) can't pee where they're supposed to, mice are too wild, chincillas are just plain evil too. Rats are friendly, smart, and they are like miniature goats. They will eat just about any table scraps. I'm gonna be kinda bummed when my jungle carpet python is big enough to take rats...ah well, she's gotta eat too...


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## Woody Taylor

Guinea pigs! Unassuming! Clean! Happy! Don't carry the plague!


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## Bob Scott

Maren Bell said:


> HEY! :evil: Don't knock rats. They can be great training aids for terriers. :lol: :wink:
> 
> 
> 
> I'd say don't knock rats period. I've had a total of 5 (have 2 currently) and hey are by far the best small animal pets. Hamsters are little incarnations of Satan, gerbils are meh, rabbits (especially my big dumb as a stump male) can't pee where they're supposed to, mice are too wild, chincillas are just plain evil too. Rats are friendly, smart, and they are like miniature goats. They will eat just about any table scraps. I'm gonna be kinda bummed when my jungle carpet python is big enough to take rats...ah well, she's gotta eat too...
Click to expand...

Raise cute little bunnys for your snake. What they don't eat, you can. I love fried bunny! :lol: :lol: :wink:


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## Becky Shilling

Jeff, having known many a cat-hater, let me assure you; there IS a cat out there with YOUR name on it. It will find you eventually!


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Good, it's been along time since the dogs have had one they could kill.


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## Mike Schoonbrood

I don't like cats anymore, I used to think they were fun to play with, but now I understand their evil lil ways, with their evil tiny heads and their sneaky selfish attitudes. Doing their stupid poofing and hissing thing and wanting to maul you with their claws when you rub their belly or try to play wtih them.

Feed a cat and they think they're god, feed a dog and they think you're god.


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## Maren Bell Jones

> Raise cute little bunnys for your snake. What they don't eat, you can. I love fried bunny! :lol: :lol: :wink:


I actually have two rabbits I want to get rid of. They are excellent rabbits and would be really good for a novice owner, but future hubby is allergic to their hay and pellets (he has a pretty bad grass allergy). My python can only currently eat 30 g mice, so that's not an option, even if I was that mean.  

Guinea pigs are cute, but the squealing whenever you open the door of the fridge because they think they're gonna get fed gets annoying. At least rabbits are silent (except when they scream!).


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## Andres Martin

Has anyone here ever tried an e-collar on a cat?

jeje.


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## Woody Taylor

Andres Martin said:


> Has anyone here ever tried an e-collar on a cat?


Only one of those electrified mats that shock them if they step on it. Very effective and entertaining and spooked both cat and puppy. I used it for about three hours before I felt guilty (I used it for my own entertainment). I'll sell it cheap if somebody wants it. It shocks the hell out of people too. Very fun thing to put on a kitchen counter.


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## Connie Sutherland

Mike Schoonbrood said:


> I don't like cats anymore, I used to think they were fun to play with, but now I understand their evil lil ways, with their evil tiny heads and their sneaky selfish attitudes. Doing their stupid poofing and hissing thing and wanting to maul you with their claws when you rub their belly or try to play wtih them.........


HAHAHAHAHAHA! Wow, I thought *I* was immune to kitty-cuteness. You guys have me beat all to hell.


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## Becky Shilling

Tell me you can resist the cuteness:


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Perfect, the dogs can have two flavors


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## Bob Scott

Also the choice between Natural and kibble.


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## Becky Shilling

You guys are sooooo bad!!


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## Daryl Ehret

Hey, I gotta cool cat. 8) He loves to go into the pasture with us to train dogs, and does an adequate job trying to distract them. If the tug is tossed out, he tries to beat the dog to it. He's an 'only' cat just tryin' to fit in. :lol:


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## Liz Monty

When I introduce a puppy to a cat I leave them alone and don't interrupt. If the puppy is young enough the cat will usually claim dominance immediately or run and hide but keep coming back to check and see if puppy is still there. Finally the cat will give a bat of it's paw to the overly curious puppy and then all is usually well. I've noticed that an older dog with lots of prey drive or protection drive will finally re-claim the dominance if the cat is just plain nasty all the time. Then look out kitty, LOL
One thing I noticed, in one post, is that the person used re-direction of play tugs and toys each time the puppy chased the cat. In my opinion, this may be seen as a positive reinforcement to the dog, so I would not do it myself. "chase cat - get play toy" A dog's mind is very suseptible to that. Some people may disagree with me totally, but if my puppy continued to chase the cat, I would reprimand it very seriously. For all work dogs, they must learn to not chase prey animals (deer, squirrels, etc.)


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## Liz Monty

Well, I have hit a snag in my big theory of cats and dogs. My answer to this thread is not working now.   
Bella has been here for two weeks roughly, or it seems that long anyway, I haven't checked the calendar.
The cat is not helping to ease the situation. She keeps avoiding the puppy by either running away or giving just hisses and slight paw swipes. I had expected too much of the cat. I hoped she would just really grab the pup by the head and dig in at one point to get the pup off her back.
Not happening, not likely to happen. The cat is still doing her usual of wanting to be with me, but the puppy when loose is chasing her non=stop. Each time I grab the puppy and scold. Now it has escalated to severe scolding including crating after a chase, or physical reprimand with voice and all.
This puppy is not responding to the corrections for more than a few seconds. When she does respond and walk away for a while she becomes highly active and turns to destructive nature, grabbing blankets, objects and biting and pulling them. Then she gets scolded for that. She is showing a very high prey drive. And she is showing a trend towards a dominance battle with me. She was crating just fine until this morning. Now a crating episode means forcing her into the crate and her forcing against me no matter how hard I push to keep her in before getting the crate door shut. I have not had this problem before. IS THIS a dominance problem I should be getting advice on, to help me nip it quickly, or is this expected in a good working dog. Am I going to damage her drives and trust if I push the issue even stronger with correction and forced crating??????
Also, she has now begun to use my hands, clothing, body parts as nipping items. I can get her to stop easily, but she is doing it each time we are together. I have used a prong collar only once on one dog to battle the dominance, should I do this again in this situation?????


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## Bob Scott

Being in physical control of the pup doesn't necessarilly make you the leader. 
When he starts bitting on you, just stop playing. Game over! He'll get the hint. There's still no problem with correcting him but it has to be fair and well timed.
I'm not a big fan of using the crate for punishment. That's where the resistance comes from.
Try keeping him on leash and have the lease around your waist. This makes him go where you choose to go. That's a very simple form of leadership. Usually a week of this does wondeers if you stick with it. 
When you do have to put him in the crate, give the command (crate/kennel, whatever), and toss a bit of food or a treat in there. Feed him in there. Eventually wait to give the treat till after he goes in. That takes it out of being a bribe. 
Do this during the day as an exercise in training. Three, four, five times a day. Just a few mins at a time.


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## Liz Monty

Thanks Bob, I will try that. I do use the command Kennel Up for the crate. But I will try the leash and food thing too. Thanks


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## Connie Sutherland

I'm even less of a believer of crating for punishment. It's supposed to be his safe good place. :wink: 

I've always used tethering-to-me for housetraining, but Bob's use of it for leadership reinforcement sounds great.

Writin' that one down........


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## Daryl Ehret

I can't say I have any great advice for the stage you're at. My litters get alot of exposure to the cat. This doesn't negatively affect prey drive development in my experience, as you might think. Had a six month old from one of my litters come for a visit a couple days ago. The cat would taunt and provoke a chase and the pup persued with enthusiasm, but without intent to harm. The pup I received from another kennel, mentioned earlier in this thread, still has a strong urge to persue and would bite with force, but with a verbal warning he will stay his ground.

Taken yesterday...


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## Don Turnipseed

Becky Shilling said:


> Tell me you can resist the cuteness:


Becky, that looks like an airedale dish with added protein.....here is a link to a picture of a 7 1/2 dale mo old introduced to her first cat.
http://workingairedale.proboards78.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=1161721933


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## Daryl Ehret

"that looks like an airedale dish with added protein....." :lol: 

"picture of a 7 1/2 dale mo old introduced to her first cat..."
Dang! I'd had an easier time with Rook if I got one a those 8)


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## Liz Monty

Good, we are back to normal crating again. I found out two things, one, it didn't hurt to add some dog treats (the vet ones) when putting her in the crate, it has improved her willingness already.
The second thing I found out is that she bites the crap out of my leg when I tried the tether, lol. Not sooooo good. She's very high strung now not at all like the quiet pup I brought home.
So I am not putting her in the crate as punishment or to keep her out of trouble, but only when it is her nap time and I need to do things, or just because it is nap time. She is getting much better in only two days with the treats placed in with her.

So the tether is a no go, unless I want to beat her off my leg and pants, those baby teeth really rip clothing. Now I'm making the cat stay in one place and letting puppy smell her. Patting the cat and keeping her there. I am also making Bella lay down calmly to do these greetings. Yet, when I'm not holding her colar, she goes for the chase again. I am finding that my LOUD VOICE is helping somewhat. I didn't want to bellow at her, but at times I have to. Now I also have to teach her NOT to hang on to me, my clothing, my feet, my sweater, when I say OUT. She is learning this but I hope it continues. Man this pup is in high gear at times. She's really going to need a LOT of OBEDIENCE work all around. I swear, I forgot how much work was involved,


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## Liz Monty

Daryl, I love your web site and breeding philosophy. All the dogs I had before came from the Czek,EastGerman and Netherlands breedings. They are great dogs. I am so happy to see that people are still impressed with them. I really was. It's been five years since I had one. This new pup is more or less NOT from those types of lines, so I find her different in a couple of ways. She confuses me, calm in some areas, nuts in others, not an even keel. With the lines like yours they were more balanced and the behaviour remained constant.


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## Daryl Ehret

I'm very happy with them. Did you notice that three of the top 5 dogs at the USA Nationals were Czech? Mike Diehl placed high score with Basco ze Slovanského domu. Congratulations Mike :!:


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## Liz Monty

Yes, Daryl, I saw it on Leerburg's site about Mike and Bosco, it was great.
They did win didn't they????
Did you notice the nice colourfull Mondio toy in the background of Anni's picture on my Avatar?? All this talk on the board has made me peak my interest in training again. That's a great thing I think $$$$$$$$$$,


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## susan tuck

Liz, With sport puppy prospects you do not want to correct them in this situation, so that is why we redirect. 8)


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