# Is there such a thing as a . . .



## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

1) Malinois that has been sport or LE trained without an E-Collar or Prong Collar?

2) A sport or LE Malinois that does not load and explode or have what has been described as melt downs?

Just curious.

Terrasita


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

What sports? to what level?

When you say LE, what are you referring to?
Single or Dual Purpose?

trying to clarify the question...


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Joby Becker said:


> What sports? to what level?
> 
> When you say LE, what are you referring to?
> Single or Dual Purpose?
> ...


:lol: Joby, was anal your maiden name ??

It was a simple question.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> :lol: Joby, was anal your maiden name ??
> 
> It was a simple question.


No it is my middle name...

anyhooo. it was bound to come up...

I know of agility, flyball, and dockdiving mals trained without prong or ecollar...

I also know of a couple single purpose (scentwork) mali that were trained without prong or ecollar....handlers now use corrective collars though....

I have never heard of a Mali being trained in biting sports to anything higher than a BH or a Brevet without use of ecollar or prong...

I have never heard of any police dog that bites being trained without use of prong or ecollar of ANY breed...


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Hahahah, or so I thought. I don't know Joby do you think the type of sport makes a difference? I can see how you might exclude Sch from the ring sports and maybe PSA. Also, law enforcement--patrol. I forgot about single purpose dogs. Part of the reason for the question is my own load and explode dog who I will need to start working on distance training where I'm farther away from her and the stimulus. The other is for a long time reading the board, it seems that Mal is synonomous with E-Collar. Are the thresholds that low? Does age make a difference?

Terrasita

P.S. Please don't turn this into another defensive cookies vs. compulsion thread. Its more about handling thresholds for training and reliability and what's realistic and why.


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## julie allen (Dec 24, 2010)

My mal is being trained with a nylon collar and harness. Of course she is for trailing, but I don't do any correction at all while working and she doesn't need it.
I have a retired patrol dog mal that was not trained with anything more than a choke chain.


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## jack van strien (Apr 9, 2009)

Imo a lot of old people like me used to train without the use of an ecollar for the simple reason they were not as available as now.
I am talking twenty years ago!My dog at that time was trained with common sense only,during the time i had him the word drive was never used.
He was a very relaxed type of dog and we hed to wake him up when he was 8 months old,he never did respond to the decoy or got activated by seeing other dogs bite.He would not bark when strangers came to the house and he was a friend to man and beast.Loved kids and would work just for the fun of it.If we would have had an ecollar it would probably have been good to use for some excercises.
His scores were not that high but he was an ideal working dog,very stable in every setting.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Hahahah, or so I thought. I don't know Joby do you think the type of sport makes a difference? I can see how you might exclude Sch from the ring sports and maybe PSA. Also, law enforcement--patrol. I forgot about single purpose dogs. Part of the reason for the question is my own load and explode dog who I will need to start working on distance training where I'm farther away from her and the stimulus. The other is for a long time reading the board, it seems that Mal is synonomous with E-Collar. Are the thresholds that low? Does age make a difference?
> 
> Terrasita
> 
> P.S. Please don't turn this into another defensive cookies vs. compulsion thread. Its more about handling thresholds for training and reliability and what's realistic and why.


see above...

I have never heard of any patrol dog trained without those, of any breed...


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

"I have never heard of any police dog that bites being trained without use of prong or ecollar of ANY breed..."

Now you have. Up until the late 80's we never used any electronics. It wasn't permitted in the AF at all. The standards haven't changed and the dogs were trained to those standards without electronics. Move up to 2011, I have 2 Mals (patrol) that have not had electronics used on them. I have 4 Mals several GSD's and one Rottie that are single purpose drug or explosives that have never had electronics used on them. All of my dogs have regular choker chains. I do have 2 mals, 2 GSD's and 2 Dutchies in patrol training as we speak. I am using electronics on the mal bitch because, well, ---- she's really a bitch. ha ha. She's really tough. I've not yet had to use electronics on the other 5, although I suspect the other mal will need it before we're through.

DFrost


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## Butch Cappel (Aug 12, 2007)

There are still several countries that do not allow E-collars in the country, and yet several of those countries have some of the best military and police dogs to be found. 

The Scandinavian, countries where electricity is not used, have some of the best Mals consistently competing in Ring sports as well as their police dogs. So it would seem, on a worldwide scale there are a lot of Mals in LE and Sports that are not trained with electricity.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

David Frost said:


> "I have never heard of any police dog that bites being trained without use of prong or ecollar of ANY breed..."
> 
> Now you have. Up until the late 80's we never used any electronics. It wasn't permitted in the AF at all. The standards haven't changed and the dogs were trained to those standards without electronics. Move up to 2011, I have 2 Mals (patrol) that have not had electronics used on them. I have 4 Mals several GSD's and one Rottie that are single purpose drug or explosives that have never had electronics used on them. All of my dogs have regular choker chains. I do have 2 mals, 2 GSD's and 2 Dutchies in patrol training as we speak. I am using electronics on the mal bitch because, well, ---- she's really a bitch. ha ha. She's really tough. I've not yet had to use electronics on the other 5, although I suspect the other mal will need it before we're through.
> 
> DFrost


My mindset caused me to misread the question again!!!! dammit...I was thinking without corrective collar period...which was not the question...I forgot about chokers all together....

cool..I have heard of them without electric..I only know a few people that train LE dogs, limited exposure, most use prong and/ or ecollar...funny thing is after I thought about it, I just worked one last week with just a agitation collar and a choker on...

Just called a guy up...he said tons of em...LOL...using regular chokers.

I was thinking NO CORRECTION....my bad...


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> 1) Malinois that has been sport or LE trained without an E-Collar or Prong Collar?


My female has never had a prong collar ever and has only had an e-collar on her for off leash hikes, but not for any formal training. While she's also not really my main training dog either and I only bring her out occasionally for PSA, if I was into training her more seriously, I don't think it'd be necessary for her. I really rarely have my male on a prong or an e-collar for PSA. A thick nylon slip collar is what we're currently using for protection to enforce the out. Physical corrections are not usually used for obedience. Usually...



> 2) A sport or LE Malinois that does not load and explode or have what has been described as melt downs?


If I only worked my male in PSA, I would have said he really doesn't load and explode. Herding on the other hand really brought that out... :-\" But we had an excellent session on Monday. My female has never had a load and explode/Malinois meltdown episode. At least, that I know of. :smile:


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> 1) Malinois that has been sport or LE trained without an E-Collar or Prong Collar?
> 
> 2) A sport or LE Malinois that does not load and explode or have what has been described as melt downs?
> 
> ...


1) Yes . Mals like any other dogs come with different traits and behaviors . Limiting yourself to just the use of an ecollar or prong will only limit your success with different dogs . An ecollar and prong are both great tools but not the only ones available to train a dog . 

2) Yes . See above .


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> 1) Malinois that has been sport or LE trained without an E-Collar or Prong Collar?
> 
> 2) A sport or LE Malinois that does not load and explode or have what has been described as melt downs?
> 
> ...



1 Yes. I never even used an ecollar untill a few years ago...I thought them to be heavy cluncky object with large antenna's that got more in the way then that they gave me any benefit. Used to train my dogs on a nice simple flat leather collar and nothing else but that had its backlash since I would have to be more brutal in punishment when it came to that point. I still hardly ever use the Ecollar if I dont have to...its a tool that only gets used when all else has failed my view being that if I could train them without it before then I can train them without it now...prong is a different matter tho since I need it more as an aide for myself to keep the dog at where I want it due to the issues I have with my shoulders.


2 Yes again however I did find that the dogs that didnt load and explode did not come up to my standard as the load/explode dogs would....they did the job but not to satisfaction and I never did sell them as LE dogs...Had 2 such dogs and both ended up as private owned guarddogs on a company terrain...they only just made the grade.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Alice Bezemer said:


> Used to train my dogs on a nice simple flat leather collar and nothing else but that had its backlash since I would have to be more brutal in punishment when it came to that point.


Care to elaborate? how do you punish a dog on a flat collar? LOL....:-$


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Joby Becker said:


> Care to elaborate? how do you punish a dog on a flat collar? LOL....:-$



Use youre imagination  lets just say that getting close and REALLY personal was involved O


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Alice Bezemer said:


> Use youre imagination  lets just say that getting close and REALLY personal was involved O


sounds naughty...


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Joby Becker said:


> sounds naughty...


:lol: bet ya the dog disagreed with the naughty bit


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## andreas broqvist (Jun 2, 2009)

Just look at AL dog from sweden, Norway wher we cant use E-colar ore prong. They have won ore placed atleast 3 in world cup mondioring for 3-4 years in a row. Placed good in Ipo and we have al the Elite dogs in swedish protection taht is also traind without thos ofcaus.

Al ouer police and miletary dogs are traind the same way.


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## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

Butch Cappel said:


> There are still several countries that do not allow E-collars in the country, and yet several of those countries have some of the best military and police dogs to be found.
> 
> The Scandinavian, countries* where electricity is not used*, have some of the best Mals consistently competing in Ring sports as well as their police dogs. So it would seem, on a worldwide scale there are a lot of Mals in LE and Sports that are not trained with electricity.





andreas broqvist said:


> Just look at AL dog from sweden, Norway* wher we cant use E-colar ore prong*. They have won ore placed atleast 3 in world cup mondioring for 3-4 years in a row. Placed good in Ipo and we have al the Elite dogs in swedish protection taht is also traind without thos ofcaus.
> 
> Al ouer police and miletary dogs are traind the same way.


And if you believe that these tools aren't used there, then you probably still believe in Santa too...
I agree that they aren't used "in public"


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## andreas broqvist (Jun 2, 2009)

Do you train With them?


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## Butch Cappel (Aug 12, 2007)

Martine, Pittbulls are outlawed too but I didn't think that was a Chihuahua on steroids I saw walking the streets of Amsterdam. We are all aware people break rules and laws, but the OP was asking if there are successful LE or sport Mals that are not being trained with an E-collar, that was the answer Andreas and I were giving.

I am always curious about the folks that feel the E-collar is the only way to train. If I remember right Tritronics introduced the first E-collars around 1950 in the U.S. Now again I could be wrong on this, but I could swear I have seen videos of some really good dogs doing SchH & Ring sports before 1950? Wonder how they trained them?

I have also known some LE handlers that had really good dogs on the street pre-1950. So it may seem _shocking_ (pun intended) to some, but there have been, and are today, trainers that get great results without an electric collar, to answer the OP's question.


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## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

andreas broqvist said:


> Do you train With them?


You mean with people that are successful and training with ecollar? And they live in countries where the use of ecollar isn't allowed?
Yes.


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## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

Butch Cappel said:


> Martine, Pittbulls are outlawed too but I didn't think that was a Chihuahua on steroids I saw walking the streets of Amsterdam. We are all aware people break rules and laws, but the OP was asking if there are successful LE or sport Mals that are not being trained with an E-collar, that was the answer Andreas and I were giving.
> 
> I am always curious about the folks that feel the E-collar is the only way to train. If I remember right Tritronics introduced the first E-collars around 1950 in the U.S. Now again I could be wrong on this, but I could swear I have seen videos of some really good dogs doing SchH & Ring sports before 1950? Wonder how they trained them?
> 
> I have also known some LE handlers that had really good dogs on the street pre-1950. So it may seem _shocking_ (pun intended) to some, but there have been, and are today, trainers that get great results without an electric collar, to answer the OP's question.


One thing I know for sure and that is that dogs from 30yrs ago couldn't possibly compete against the dogs nowadays. Not that the dogs weren't as good but there has been an evolution in training and training techniques & tools which gives better results.

And yes, people were training before ecollars existed too but the tools they used then were far less humane then an ecollar...

So to answer the OP's question:

whether you can train a dog* to top level *without ecollar or prong depends on:

- the discipline
- the type of dog (could work with a weaker dog but then eventually you'll have to use some other form of compulsion too)


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> 1) Malinois that has been sport or LE trained without an E-Collar or Prong Collar?


I used a prong, but didn't use electric to train Cali, and she did OK in the title department (FRII, PSA1, herding, obedience, and other titles). I think I put an e-collar on her once, it wasn't pretty, and I never used it again. Enzo - FRIII was also trained without electric. And I had friends that had FR titled dogs who never used electric. All the dogs did at some point have pinchs used. Now most of the people I train with, including myself , do use electric as one tool in the bag, but it's not required. I could train with out it, but why, when it is a useful tool.



Terrasita Cuffie said:


> 2) A sport or LE Malinois that does not load and explode or have what has been described as melt downs?


Chaos - FRIII is a calmer dog that internalizes her drives and didn't have "meltdowns". Her father Raptor - FRIII was similar. Enzo was hard to control, but not because he was prone to "meltdowns". He was pretty clear in the head, just not that responsive to correction. I've known quite a few Malinois like that over the years, so they are definitely out there.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Martine Loots said:


> And yes, people were training before ecollars existed too but the tools they used then were far less humane then an ecollar...


LOL Oh yeah. I was arguing with one of the guys at herding a few months back. He was having some issues with his BC, the trainer wanted him to use electric, he kept going on about how his ancestors in Scotland didn't use electric to train their dogs, if they could do it so could he. I just looked at him and said "you are right, they didn't. They used things like buckshot instead, and if they couldn't get the dog to stop these behaviors that way, they took it behind the barn and killed it. Do you also plan to do that?" 

The next day his dog had an e-collar on LOL


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## andreas broqvist (Jun 2, 2009)

Martine Loots said:


> You mean with people that are successful and training with ecollar? And they live in countries where the use of ecollar isn't allowed?
> Yes.


No I ment traning with the peopel I was refering to. Thos 5 peopel that has been to MR world cup.

I do train with peopel competing at the higest level of Swedish protection and other dog sports and been doing so for a cupple of years and I can garante non of them uses E-colars. We do not train in that way her. We can do it without.

I do not say its wrong to use it but we do not.

So you are saing the Police and top sport dogs her are week becaus we can handel them without E-colars ?


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## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

andreas broqvist said:


> No I ment traning with the peopel I was refering to. Thos 5 peopel that has been to MR world cup.
> 
> I do train with peopel competing at the higest level of Swedish protection and other dog sports and been doing so for a cupple of years and I can garante non of them uses E-colars. We do not train in that way her. We can do it without.


I don't know the MR people you are talking about (at least not the "native" Scandinavians, but I do know some world cup level competitors who train there and of whom I'm very sure they use ecollars...). 




andreas broqvist said:


> So you are saing the Police and top sport dogs her are week becaus we can handel them without E-colars ?


If they don't have to use any form of compulsion then yes, I'd say the dogs are soft. But I'm pretty sure they do :-#.


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## andreas broqvist (Jun 2, 2009)

We wher not spekaing of not using compulsion, that is stupid and only doen bye klicker freeaks that think ther dogs is ther pink litle tedy bear.

We use compulsion and corection. But now E-colar ore prongs.

We use other stuff like, Choke collar, Whater, Lines and stuff like that to control the dogs. 
The question was if ther wher peoepl competing att high level withot thos 2 metods and ther are.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> 1) Malinois that has been sport or LE trained without an E-Collar or Prong Collar?


My new pup at 11 months old has never seen a prong or e-collar. We use a slip SS choke chain as a corrective/guiding collar and a ball on a string. He is working on the whole French Ringsport program with basically just these tools. 

Trust me I thought of it and he wore a dummy e-collar for months prepping him for his meeting with the electrician, but others with way more experience advised otherwise. Maybe he will need it down the line .. maybe not, time will tell. 



Terrasita Cuffie said:


> 2) A sport or LE Malinois that does not load and explode or have what has been described as melt downs?


There is lots out there, all depends what you want to call load and explode. Malinois are meant to be explosive it has to be in the breed. How else do they get the job done? They are not pointy eared dogs with Golden Retriever temperaments. :smile:


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Butch Cappel said:


> Martine, Pittbulls are outlawed too but I didn't think that was a Chihuahua on steroids I saw walking the streets of Amsterdam. *Before stating fact as you think to know it atleast be accurate! there is no law against keeping a Pitbull in the netherlands. so yes you will see pitbulls walking the streets of amsterdam. * We are all aware people break rules and laws, but the OP was asking if there are successful LE or sport Mals that are not being trained with an E-collar, that was the answer Andreas and I were giving.
> 
> I am always curious about the folks that feel the E-collar is the only way to train. If I remember right Tritronics introduced the first E-collars around 1950 in the U.S. Now again I could be wrong on this, but I could swear I have seen videos of some really good dogs doing SchH & Ring sports before 1950? Wonder how they trained them?
> 
> ...


great results in the 50's translates to mediocre at best in 2011....people think different and work different with dogs...martine said it best when she said that we now train more humane then was trained back in the day when ecollars and prongs werent used coze then other measures of correction were introduced and you can bet youre sweet ass they werent very friendly or fun for the dog.


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Butch Cappel said:


> I am always curious about the folks that feel the E-collar is the only way to train. If I remember right Tritronics introduced the first E-collars around 1950 in the U.S. Now again I could be wrong on this, but I could swear I have seen videos of some really good dogs doing SchH & Ring sports before 1950? Wonder how they trained them?
> 
> I have also known some LE handlers that had really good dogs on the street pre-1950. So it may seem _shocking_ (pun intended) to some, but there have been, and are today, trainers that get great results without an electric collar, to answer the OP's question.


What U.S. Police Departments had K9 units pre 1950 ?


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## Butch Cappel (Aug 12, 2007)

South Orange New Jersey started theirs in 1907, New York city followed a year or so later and that's just for starters. Then dogs got popular.


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

*quote: I have also known some LE handlers that had really good dogs on the street pre-1950.

*Just how old are you ? 61 minimum from that statement alone


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## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

Alice Bezemer said:


> *quote: I have also known some LE handlers that had really good dogs on the street pre-1950.
> 
> *Just how old are you ?* 61 minimum* from that statement alone



He was an early maturer then :-D:-D


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Butch Cappel said:


> South Orange New Jersey started theirs in 1907, New York city followed a year or so later and that's just for starters. Then dogs got popular.


I've done some researching on the history of PSDs in the U.S. and it would seem from the historical record that there were very very few PSD units in the U.S. before 1950 . Baltimore is considered by many to be the 1st modern Police K9 unit in the U.S. and I think they started around 1953 . The popularity slowed down a bit but took off again in the 70's and 80's . 

I'm very interested in the Police K9 units you encountered before the 1950's and the extent of your dealings with them . Could you name them specifically ? I'd like to get ahold of them for historical purposes .

As this pertains to the old days . We still keep in touch with the handlers that started our unit . Ours started with 3 K9 handlers around 1954 we were around the 3rd or 4th K9 unit started after Baltimore . I've spoken to 2 of them and many that came after them at reunions . 

They are an important part of our history and great guys . It was important to them that we progress as a K9 Unit . Almost all of them have stated our training and dogs are much better then when they started . 

We now work according to the dog . Depending on the dog the tools we now use can be a choke collar , leather , prong , ecollar , etc. . We also use many different training techniques depending on the dog . 

According to these well respected K9 Handlers and Trainers change has been a good thing .


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Geoff Empey said:


> Malinois are meant to be explosive it has to be in the breed. How else do they get the job done? They are not pointy eared dogs with Golden Retriever temperaments. :smile:


You were doing fabulous until this comment. For me there is load/explode and then hell bent committed in the work without exploding into la la land. See Kadi's response and some of the others as far as the "types" of malinois that exist. I have owned 2 bouviers. The second one has a load and explode component but she also has confidence and some of the scariest analysis I've seen in a dog. I'd call her lower threshold but without strong object drive. So it takes something "alive" to trigger her. Mostly this is with animals but I know she is triggered by small running children. When she was little, crying babies on the television triggered her. I was so relieved when she met her first toddler---although still I could see the conflict in controlling herself if that makes sense. At the last herding clinic, a ewe had just lambed. With her on a down, they walked the bloody ewe past her carrying the crying lamb. Although in a down, she was quivering all over and whining. One of the cows went after her in a corner and she came ouf of the corner attached to his neck. She's no golden retriever.

Your prior discussions regarding sending the dog to the decoy over a distance along with some of Jeff's threshold discussions have been helpful in me trying to look at this and figure out what to do with it. 

Terrasita


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

The military had sentry dogs in the 50s and early 60's. The patrol dog came around 1968. The first Air Force Patrol dog handlers were trained by the trainers of the Wash. DC K9 Unit. My personal experiences don't go back farther than that. 

DFrost


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Interesting thread kind of.. I came across this, not the US but interesting enough.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_dog


The first major step forward in the development of the modern police dog came in the 1890s in Germany where serious attempts had been made to introduce recognised training programmes for the dogs purchased by the police, army & customs authorities. Rapid progress was made in the field of dog training with the development of the German Shepherd Dog as a breed and the formation on the 22nd of April 1899 of the Verein für Deutsche Schäferhunde or SV (The German Shepherd Dog Society) . In 1903 the SV staged civilian police dog trials that encompassed control, criminal work and nose work exercises. 


In 1908, the North Eastern Railway police who used Airedales to put a stop to theft from the docks in Hull formed the first recognised UK Police Dog Section. By 1910 the British Transport Commission Police had taken over, experimenting with other breeds such as Labradors, Dobermans and finally, the German Shepherd or Alsatian as it was then known.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> For me there is load/explode and then hell bent committed in the work without exploding into la la land. See Kadi's response and some of the others as far as the "types" of malinois that exist. I have owned 2 bouviers. The second one has a load and explode component but she also has confidence and some of the scariest analysis I've seen in a dog. I'd call her lower threshold but without strong object drive. So it takes something "alive" to trigger her. Mostly this is with animals but I know she is triggered by small running children. When she was little, crying babies on the television triggered her. I was so relieved when she met her first toddler---although still I could see the conflict in controlling herself if that makes sense. At the last herding clinic, a ewe had just lambed. With her on a down, they walked the bloody ewe past her carrying the crying lamb. Although in a down, she was quivering all over and whining. One of the cows went after her in a corner and she came ouf of the corner attached to his neck. She's no golden retriever.


So what exactly do you think the bouv is doing here overall in its head? Not just the scenarios you describe but what you think makes this dog tick the way it does? 

I can understand the cattle response not knowing the exact exact scenario, but a cow going after the dog that is backed into the corner sounds like a defensive fight or flight move on the part of the dog to me. 

The freshly lambed ewe as well isn't that totally something out of the ordinary for this dog to see? (Forgive me if I am wrong, but if you are doing herding clinics with the dog. My take is the dog isn't a full time farm/ranch dog is that correct?) That is lots of visual stimulus as well as totally awesome smells for a prey animal like a dog plus the sound of a bleating lamb covered with afterbirth, it almost sounds unfair to have a dog that hasn't had a lot of experience around sheep that is still in training. It is total overload, the fact that the dog only behaved the way it did 'quivering and whining' while not breaking it's down is a testament to that dog being pretty solid to me. 



Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Your prior discussions regarding sending the dog to the decoy over a distance along with some of Jeff's threshold discussions have been helpful in me trying to look at this and figure out what to do with it.


To me I like dogs like this, PITA at times but the willingness to work always outshines the negative to me. Sure it is a challenge at times yes. That's why we train them. But I'd rather temper a fire than try to start a fire that isn't there. If that makes any sense.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Geoff Empey said:


> So what exactly do you think the bouv is doing here overall in its head? Not just the scenarios you describe but what you think makes this dog tick the way it does?
> 
> 
> *With Khira, it seems to come down to prey and fight. If you don't trigger those, she's poetry in motion. The key is for me to be in her head to control it and not stress it. Fight does come up with livestock but with a dog that gets off on it, its a PITA at times. Also, like I said, scary intelligence and analysis. One thing I've learned though just around the house is that my presence puts her in drive or loads her.*
> ...


*Most definitely. The load/explode thing is a PITA from a trial perspective only. As a dog that can handle what counts on the farm, she is to die for. Despite the load/explode, she's handler responsive without being sensitive. She has stock sense out the whazzoo and I have just refused to shut her down with obedience placement on light/fright prey triggering sheep. But I would like to find a way to make that work, yet still keep her mind in the game. Once I started the marker training, I made significant headway with it and was able to cap and uncap w/ the marker/release. She's prey, but not kill, unless it flies. *

*Bob would say I'm making her sound worse than she is but really, I'd like to get her past it or at least better control of it. Now comes the question to what extent is that possible and is it worth it if I lose something valuable. This is why I was curious about the mal perspective. *

*Terrasita*


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> *Most definitely. The load/explode thing is a PITA from a trial perspective only. As a dog that can handle what counts on the farm, she is to die for. Despite the load/explode, she's handler responsive without being sensitive. She has stock sense out the whazzoo and I have just refused to shut her down with obedience placement on light/fright prey triggering sheep. But I would like to find a way to make that work, yet still keep her mind in the game. Once I started the marker training, I made significant headway with it and was able to cap and uncap w/ the marker/release. She's prey, but not kill, unless it flies. *
> 
> *Bob would say I'm making her sound worse than she is but really, I'd like to get her past it or at least better control of it. Now comes the question to what extent is that possible and is it worth it if I lose something valuable. This is why I was curious about the mal perspective. *
> 
> *Terrasita*



I think that Khira and Thunder both would be better farm dogs then trial dogs. Explosive for different reasons. Khira loves the chase, Thunder loves the physical control. 
I don't look at either one of them as being to sensitive. :lol: Trooper, yes!
If a dog is "broke in" correctly with the e-collar then I think it could help in herding.
Maybe taught as a tap on the shoulder type reminder rather then using it to shut down behavior like we've seen it done.
I have used the bark collar with Thunder when he was fence fighting the dogs behind us. One little frustration yelp/growl and he acted like it wasn't there.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Bob would say I'm making her sound worse than she is but really, I'd like to get her past it or at least better control of it. Now comes the question to what extent is that possible and is it worth it if I lose something valuable. This is why I was curious about the mal perspective.


Bob would probably be right as it never is usually is as bad as it seems. 

During the 4 years I've been involved with my Mal and doing the French Ringsport. I have seen all types of dogs, of all ages, all breeds, all with very different temperaments. It is always the same conclusion, each problem has it's own solution, the key is finding what works for the individual dog. It has more about the talent and experience of the handler and the team around them in how quick you will find those solutions. 

As for losing something valuable confidence, drive etc in doing so. It is more how the dog rebounds from what ever method you try. That is a very individual thing with every dog, only the handler who owns the dog should be the one who has last word reading that.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Bob,

I "picked" Thunder out as a potential trial dog and the best of both worlds. Control freak is part of the GSD nature. My first GSD was as driven on stock as Thunder and as much as a control freak. She was very much a points dog despite her being a power monger control freak. Thunder is not load/explode. Like Asta, the more work for him the better. He doesn't need an e-collar. Khira's amp on the other hand, could probably use tap:roll: and it probably wouldn't take but a couple of taps if I were so inclined. We'll see how we do this next season.

T


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Bob,
> 
> I "picked" Thunder out as a potential trial dog and the best of both worlds. Control freak is part of the GSD nature. My first GSD was as driven on stock as Thunder and as much as a control freak. She was very much a points dog despite her being a power monger control freak. Thunder is not load/explode. Like Asta, the more work for him the better. He doesn't need an e-collar. Khira's amp on the other hand, could probably use tap:roll: and it probably wouldn't take but a couple of taps if I were so inclined. We'll see how we do this next season.
> 
> T



True, Thunder's load up is usually only when I try and put to much control on him. That's on me, not Thunder.
I'm just hoping that situations will be better for training by spring!


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