# What is the fascination with dogs working in defense



## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Is it because it makes for more fun sportwork that the dog will stand his ground and be defensive without curing? It seems to me that being defensive is actually half way to curing as opposed to a dog that is actually bringing the fight to the bad guy. Is this the difference between civil and sport?


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

The term "defense" is strange to me anyway. It denotes a near fear response. Agreed, terminology can be a bummer in many discussions. I also realize I've been at this game a long time and see no need to change my terminology. Personally, I see your statement of; "a dog that is actually bringing the fight to the bad guy" not associated at all with "defense". I will, however, read the discussion with interest. 

DFrost


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## David Ruby (Jul 21, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Is it because it makes for more fun sportwork that the dog will stand his ground and be defensive without curing? It seems to me that being defensive is actually half way to curing as opposed to a dog that is actually bringing the fight to the bad guy. Is this the difference between civil and sport?


Interesting question. I have had it explained/described to me that adding civil work is more about building the dog up to being able to stand more pressure from the agitator. The ideal from what I have been told is a dog that is balanced. Sort of a combination of prey, defense, and fight. In other words, kind of analogous to where you are fighting a real threat, so they aren't just backing off and letting you kick the snot out of them, but they aren't indomitable like the Hulk where they keep coming and coming and your punches (or bites) are not even slowing the guy down. That's just from watching and hanging out with agitators doing their work and asking a few questions.

I have never gotten the impression from people I've talked to that putting a ton of pressure on a dog and getting a defensive reaction (e.g. if you push somebody into a wall who doesn't want to stand up for themselves and force them to react) was a great idea. More or less, the idea is you want the dog to come out fighting and come out winning, not back them into a corner and see how much they can take before they totally fold and fight out of a fear-based or panicky response. However, some dogs handle the civil work by firing up and seem to want to figuratively take the gloves off and come out swinging.

That's just my newbie take on it, so I'd definitely be open to how others view it or if I am totally off (wouldn't be the first time).

-Cheers


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Is it because it makes for more fun sportwork that the dog will stand his ground and be defensive without curing? It seems to me that being defensive is actually half way to curing as opposed to a dog that is actually bringing the fight to the bad guy. Is this the difference between civil and sport?


 
It has very little to do with "sport" work, it has more to do with the PP YoYos that can take a crappy dog, tie it to a 12 in lead and Flank the shIt out if it until it bites, Voila instant PP Dog.


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## Robin Van Hecke (Sep 7, 2009)

The dogs that I have can't be worked in " defense " they only work in " fight drive ". A lot of the GSD people I train with don't understand that.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

I do not know...More can go wrong with training in defense than can go right. I think a lot of handlers will be more gratified with the dog if they think the dog is working out of a part of it's brain that has to do with aggression and not prey drive. I also think that the dogs that can work out of defensive and still do it impressivley are very very few. And out of those dogs, I think even fewer will continue to fight when the threat is more than they are accustom to. So I think the draw to defense is that because these dogs are so few...Everyone who wants one, or wishes to have one thinks that by having a dog with true aggression is a little piece of gold. unfortunatly I see more people ruin what they have by trying to install something in the dog that is not there.


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## Jason Moore (May 3, 2009)

I don't know just spit balling here but it seems that if a dog is working in defense then he also might be looking for a quick way out. Because when working in defense I assume that is when the animal feels threatened. I understand that some dogs may go into a defensive state at some point, so maybe you build up to that point and then try to get them past it with out adding to much pressure so you don't encounter that on the field. Just the thoughts of a newb.


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## andreas broqvist (Jun 2, 2009)

Im so bad at whriting and getting the lingo right in a difrent langues, But her it goes.
Downt you think that many peopel gets the drives mixt up, They think Sosial fight drive = Defens becaus the dog sems more serius than just in prey.
Sosial fight drive is probobly not what you cal it but I can trye to explain, The will to fight with a man. More ore less for "fun" the dog dosent get defensive at the man but he are willing to fight him for a object. 
If I look at my dog when we train her its like this.
In prey she will get the sleeve, Hunt the decoy down grab it and win it, Almost emediently if I downt run her she will lay it don and kill it, Her fight with the decoy is "ok" but not realy hard:
If we push the more sosial fighting buttons, The decoy shows more konfidens, are chalanging the dog more with his body langues and this will bring her into a more "serius" sde. She will fight teh decoy with a bit of more power, She will hit harder and when she WINS the sleeve she will show it to everyon runing around with it wery satasfied. BUT she is not agresive/defesive to the docoy, She is not angry with him.

I have been to a traning setion with a group that I did not go back to, The decoy ther presuer her so that she get Agresive/defensive, She got realy angry, This just resulted in that she Wuld not switsh drives, No prey she was just pist as hel on the decoy and wanted to bring him down. Not in a good way. Some peopel might think this is a good thing but I do not se it that way, The dog will often gett bad bites, Be hard to control and will not be able to think clearly.

Hope you understand what I tryed to explain. So im with everyon ellse, Not so many trainers are interested in defense


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## Jim Engel (Nov 14, 2007)

My Bouviers in the beginning had a lot of defense, or rather
a lot of fighting drive. About 1990 I went to Holland and bought
a two year old dog out of KNPV lines with a lot of drive for the ball
or the frisbee to get a better training balance. This was a good 
decision.

I like dogs with a lot of fighting drive, kind of goes with the Bouvier
territory, back in the days when there were real Bouviers, but in my training we
work to put the emphasis on the prey because it creates a
calmer, less hectic more controlled and thus potentially higher
scoring performance.

People who have high D dogs and emphasize it to play real man
are basically just stupid.

More information:

http://www.angelplace.net/dog/Drives.htm


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## Jason Moore (May 3, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Is it because it makes for more fun sportwork that the dog will stand his ground and be defensive without curing? It seems to me that being defensive is actually half way to curing as opposed to a dog that is actually bringing the fight to the bad guy. Is this the difference between civil and sport?


I got to thinking more about the question. Again I'm a complete newb and ring is completely out there for me in my knowledge but this kept running through my head as to get an accurate description in what you where talking about. But is maybe the defensive drive you speak of maybe and please correct me if i'm wrong in my assesment of what your talking about along with If i'm off base in my analogy. But the reason I mentioned ring is because of the object gaurd this is a defensive posture I would think because when you think gaurd you think defending. As would be the same thing when a ppd is gaurding his place/master what ever it is there to gaurd. Now is that in it self a defensive drive or would it still be considered prey. 
I would think this would be completely different than a dog doing bite work in a defensive drive( feeling some what threatened). Again I dunno you just got things rolling around in my head and got me to wanering. Please chime in and let me know how far off base I am or ask me to explain it more clearly and I'll be thinking of how to do that lol.


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

The ring OG is an obedience exercise more than anything else.

It has very little to do with "guarding"


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## David Ruby (Jul 21, 2009)

Kyle Sprag said:


> It has very little to do with "sport" work, it has more to do with the PP YoYos that can take a crappy dog, tie it to a 12 in lead and Flank the shIt out if it until it bites, Voila instant PP Dog.


Is there any correlation between civil work or object guard and a dog's "defensive drive"?

Some of the LGDs and a few other breeds are commonly described as having higher defensive drives as well, and historically the breeds described as such seem to be breeds that worked in a smaller area (e.g. guarding livestock, working as home/estate guardians) vs. breeds that worked in a more extroverted sort of way (e.g. Malinois or GSDs that would herd, or chase bad guys, or catching hogs, or some sort of similar type of function). Is that at all what people are talking about between a high-prey dog and a more defensive type of dog.

What you're describing sounds more like somebody being a prick to their dog so it looks tough.

-Cheers


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## hillel schwartzman (Nov 9, 2008)

Defence is a dog training word that is misused too much...I want my dog in fight drive not defence...i want my dog to fight not defend itself... great interview with chris jones and gerben kamphuis..just google it


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Look at all the "N00BS" saying their dogs have "fight drive" hilarious. Lets see some videos of these dogs with "fight drive"


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## Dan Brigham (Jul 23, 2009)

My take on fascination with defense work is that it is important to get the dog to believe he could lose the fight and learn to fight through that negative place. Once the dog bites and learns to win through this, it helps build fight drive. Building fight drive is the basic idea of manwork. 

Defense has basically two responses, fight or flight. If the dog chooses flight that is a VERY bad option and the dog must be built back up, if that is even possible, to do more serious work. If the dog picks fight, he must be rewarded for that choice. The reward tells the dog he made the correct choice and will build self-confidence in his fighting abilities over time. A dog working purely in defense drive is not a rational animal and a lot of bad consequences can happen as a result. 

A dog working totally in prey never sees the fight as a serious thing. The purely prey dog doesn't think he can lose BUT when something unexpected happens, may not be able to handle a fighting situation setback. I really appreciate a dog with good to great prey in manwork, they think clearly and have the ability to be molded to an appropriate behavior.

IMO you can't get fight drive without prey and defense drives working together. You need the prey to think clearly and ability to do an exercise as taught. A dog with fight realizes it is serious, that comes from the defense side of things BUT has learned that fighting can/will win the day. 

If the dog has little prey, working a dog through defense to achieve fight drive requires a lot of skill. It is not for the beginner helper or handler, both need to have the ability to help the dog achieve fight, IF the dog indeed has it genetically. Working a dog in defense requires a mentally mature dog or the dog is easily ruined. I guess the fascination for me is to see how the skilled helper can make the dog work well and should not be the first choice of how to work the dog due to the downside. 

Much like Jim Engel, I had a dobe bitch that worked heavily in defense. In her eyese, she was always fighting the Grizzly Bear and while fun to work as we built fight drive, she was also very dangerous with 4 live bites to her credit on helpers/line handlers who happened to make rather simple mistakes. It is REALLY easy to run out of people who want to work a dog like this. Fortunately, we got enough prey activated that calmed the 'fight the Grizzly Bear' reaction, this allowed her to think and work the exercise, much as Mr. Engel related to his adding prey to his Bouvier breedings. Once this bitch was trained, she was really fun to work BUT it was obviously not an easy or safe adventure at numerous junctions. I would definitely agree that more prey can really make a more balanced dog for life off of the trial field. We were unable to get prey to be activated without working in defense with this particular bitch and we discussed the many bad possibilities that could happen if we were unsuccessful PRIOR to starting down this path. 

I know that some sports/PP folks don't use the defense, prey, fight definitions that many of us do use. It is not always easy to see what is a dogs primary drive AND even within one exercise a dog might slip from one drive into another, thus making descriptions difficult. One person may not pick up the defense orientation of a very strong, self-confident dog that may be such a quick transition into fight/prey depending on the situation. The typical snarly, teeth-bared picture seen in Hollywood films and it seems they almost always use a dobe for those, is very obvious. A more confident dog might not get that snarly and jump directly into fight drive, which is much more likely to win the fight in manwork than the obvious blustery bluff behavior of that snarly, teeth bared posturing of a dog that is very close to blowing anal glands, turning tail and running the other direction.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: 
My take on fascination with defense work is that it is important to get the dog to believe he could lose the fight and learn to fight through that negative place. Once the dog bites and learns to win through this, it helps build fight drive. Building fight drive is the basic idea of manwork. 

Or, more than likely, you are just creating a hole in the dog that will make it more likely to quit when it is not on a leash. Sorry, this shit doesn't fly. There is no fight drive, cause if there was, all dogs would have it.

I have ran enough dogs in my life to know that most people that work this truely think they are building a solid solid dog. The reality is that when you push that dog to where he would leave but can't, and then "build" him back up, there is no building up, he turned to leave, and couldn't.

Take the dog off the leash and watch him run for the hills.

When people talk about this shit, they make it sound like THEY are the ones that take the dog back and forth in drives and sound like they know what the **** they are doing. It is such BULL SHIT. 

Dogs are in the drive they are in. I have seen so many dogs that were taught to show teeth that are not in defense over the years. People see this or that and say it is this or that, BULL SHIT. 

I see people talk about all prey, and you watch them work dogs and they just run about, and look at the dog when they are catching them, and that is about it. Show ponys.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote:
> 
> When people talk about this shit, they make it sound like THEY are the ones that take the dog back and forth in drives and sound like they know what the **** they are doing. It is such BULL SHIT.
> 
> ...


A couple of years ago at an Armin Winkler seminar one of
the other decoys was explaining how he was working this dog in prey and that dog in defense. Armin told him the dog decides what drive he is in, NOT the decoy.
My old SchH III Dobermann Dubheasa worked in Active 
Agression. She just liked to fight


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## David Ruby (Jul 21, 2009)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Or, more than likely, you are just creating a hole in the dog that will make it more likely to quit when it is not on a leash. Sorry, this shit doesn't fly. There is no fight drive, cause if there was, all dogs would have it.


Is it possibly a confusion with, or different usage of, terminology? I say that not to stir stuff, and I'll be the first to admit I don't fully understand the "drive theory." That being said, on some rudimentary level I see people using "prey" and "fight" drive as a way to describe a dog that is working in a positive, outgoing/extrovert sort of way, and "defense" as a generally negative, backed-in-a-corner sort of way.

The Chris Jones & Gerben Kamphuis interview mentioned above:



> I also hear from people who have never trained in the KNPV that most KNPV dogs are just trained in Prey/Play drive. Again, this is just not correct. The Police control the KNPV and these dogs are trained for Police work. If the dogs been sold to the Police were being trained in prey/play drive for their entire lives do you think the Police would be happy with this? No, of course not.
> And even more confusing is that when Police officers in the USA get our dogs and see for themselves that these dogs are biting for real, then they think we have trained them in ”defence” from a young age.
> We want our dogs working in fight, not in prey or defence. We want our dogs to be “A-social” in nature. We want them to love the fight. They are motivated by the desire to fight the decoy, not to gain a sleeve for the run back to the car.
> I think also that the KNPV has bred a dog with more fight. Our dogs are in drive for the decoy at a young age from their genes.


http://www.aedsc.com/Gerben.pdf

Presumably Gerben is not a n00b, so perhaps he's just using different terminology or sees things a bit differently. It sounds like he's using Prey as analogous to play work and Fight as working under pressure or in a way that is not seen as playful and game like (at least to some extent). Then again, for all I know he's a black sheep in the KNPV training world. It beats me.

I can't say I'm all that fascinated with the topic, just curious where people are coming from when they use these terms. I've had one agitator pretty much tell me not to worry about the terminology too much that most who discussed it didn't know what they were talking about. Still, it's good to know what people mean when they use these terms.

-Cheers


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

"Is there any correlation between civil work or object guard and a dog's "defensive drive"?"

Maybe Civil and Defense but Not Object Guard.


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## Jason Moore (May 3, 2009)

Kyle Sprag said:


> The ring OG is an obedience exercise more than anything else.
> 
> It has very little to do with "guarding"


 OK thanks Kyle I was just wandering. No matter what the sport IMO the more you know about dogs in any sport the more you know about dogs.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

David Ruby said:


> Is there any correlation between civil work or object guard and a dog's "defensive drive"?


The object guard is a totally different thing. It is more about imprinting and obedience than defense. I've seen some people take a fresh hambone and drive a coat hanger through it then tie it into the basket. But then that is resource guarding like any food even a ball or toy. It is nothing to the dog about fight or flight or die which what pure defense would be any ways. 

Really the OG when trained well is just a pure OB exercise. The decoy moves within the 1.5 m point or makes a move for the basket the dog bites and after the 5 secs when the decoy starts to move out to the 5 m radii the dog goes back to the object. 

Sure good decoys know ways to stress the dog or even make friends with the dog to steal the basket. Most times the basket gets stolen is through slippery things like moving the dog into another exercise i.e. escort or even making the dog heel with the decoy if the decoy is sly enough. Those dogs get lulled into a sense of trust that the decoy uses to his advantage. 

Even with a mediocre trained OG the dog will react to aggression from the decoy in a way that isn't helpful for the decoy to steal the basket. (unless the dog doesn't out and gets dragged away)


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

The quickest way to confuse a discussion nowdays about this is to use the common terms (ie prey, fight, defence) because there doesnt seem to be common agreement of what these terms means. FOr me its simple.
Defence - Dog views the decoy as a threat.
Fight - The dog views the decoy as a challange.
But hey, everyone has a different meaning.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: 
I can't say I'm all that fascinated with the topic, just curious where people are coming from when they use these terms. I've had one agitator pretty much tell me not to worry about the terminology too much that most who discussed it didn't know what they were talking about. Still, it's good to know what people mean when they use these terms.

One aggitator ?? Like who ?? If I don't know what the **** you are saying, and you don't know what the **** I am saying, what kind of training gets accomplished. 

Quote: Presumably Gerben is not a n00b, so perhaps he's just using different terminology or sees things a bit differently. It sounds like he's using Prey as analogous to play work and Fight as working under pressure or in a way that is not seen as playful and game like (at least to some extent).

Then again, he is selling dogs, and since the only group of people that are interested in KNPV dogs are cops, that is the term he learned sold dogs. It is a business over there. 

Here however, I have watched dog after dog get abused in the name of creating fight drive....which isn't there. If you want to have more of an idea, there are a couple of really long threads you could read from the past.


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

Jeff, what behavior do you think most are saying is Fight Drive? Just Curious


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## Robin Van Hecke (Sep 7, 2009)

Christopher Jones said:


> The quickest way to confuse a discussion nowdays about this is to use the common terms (ie prey, fight, defence) because there doesnt seem to be common agreement of what these terms means. FOr me its simple.
> Defence - Dog views the decoy as a threat.
> Fight - The dog views the decoy as a challange.
> But hey, everyone has a different meaning.


Agreed 100%.


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## Robin Van Hecke (Sep 7, 2009)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Look at all the "N00BS" saying their dogs have "fight drive" hilarious. Lets see some videos of these dogs with "fight drive"


 Please explain. Are you saying there's no such thing or that you can run them off anyway?
Or.we don't know what we're talking about? Just curious.
Thanks


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## Matthew Grubb (Nov 16, 2007)

A wise man once told me….. “There are no such things as drives… there are behaviors and motivation to perform the behavior.” :-k


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Jason Moore said:


> I got to thinking more about the question. Again I'm a complete newb and ring is completely out there for me in my knowledge but this kept running through my head as to get an accurate description in what you where talking about. But is maybe the defensive drive you speak of maybe and please correct me if i'm wrong in my assesment of what your talking about along with If i'm off base in my analogy. But the reason I mentioned ring is because of the object gaurd this is a defensive posture I would think because when you think gaurd you think defending. As would be the same thing when a ppd is gaurding his place/master what ever it is there to gaurd. Now is that in it self a defensive drive or would it still be considered prey.
> I would think this would be completely different than a dog doing bite work in a defensive drive( feeling some what threatened). Again I dunno you just got things rolling around in my head and got me to wanering. Please chime in and let me know how far off base I am or ask me to explain it more clearly and I'll be thinking of how to do that lol.


Jason, everyone seems to talk abouit defense. I am just curious if defense is desireable because I have always seen it as a weakness when reality is involved. But, like football and other games.....a good defense means something. One post mentioned guarding things like food....that is defense to me. When there is someone advancing with ill intent....i would rather see a dog take the fight to him so he is doing the defending. Between defense and offense, the stronger position is offense I would think.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

David Ruby said:


> I can't say I'm all that fascinated with the topic, just curious where people are coming from when they use these terms. I've had one agitator pretty much tell me not to worry about the terminology too much that most who discussed it didn't know what they were talking about. Still, it's good to know what people mean when they use these terms.
> 
> -Cheers


You still wont know what people mean because everyone seems to have a different perception. 
When we discuss this stuff among ourselves at club we understand each others verbiage we even have our own terms we use. I realy dont give a shit what other peoples verbiage or perception are except when it pertains to working my dog or a club dog thats when common ground of communication is important to me or us.
Ware are all the dog teasers at ware did that goofy Lee go is off to band camp 
Don dosent seem to have any takers


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: Please explain. Are you saying there's no such thing

Yes.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

There are three true drives, sex, prey and I think the last is flight....all have to do with basic survival. IMHO fight isn't a true drive because, when faced with a superior animals, flight would be the natural choice normally. I would have to say that fight is more of a selected behavior in specific dogs simply because it isn't the choice they would naturally naturally.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

"Don dosent seem to have any takers"

Mike, if you are referring to the pup....it's done. If the person getting the pup wants to say at this point it is up to them....but I do expect to see regular updates here.LOL It is an off breed you know. ](*,)


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## Jason Moore (May 3, 2009)

I would think fight drive would be a dog that has basically pure aggression torwards all aint scared and loves to fight the decoy. I don't think I would want that really. I don't know may change some day but not for now. I may be wrong in my opinion as to what fight drive is but still don't want a dog that hates every one else. Had that once in a cur dog and you always had to keep an eye on him. Unless we were hunting then he was all business out there. But around the house he liked me and my dad and thats pretty much it. And I had one that didn't care if you were hunting if you got in his bubble (a stranger) you were fair game. To me a dog like that is just to much to worry about out and around public. 

This is how I found out he decided all at once that he decided he was a biting dog. A few of us were out tracking a blooded dear. I had him and figured why not try it. He found the spot where my cousin shot the deer so we was out trailing and had to cross a small creek or to. We hadn't run across any blood for a while so I was going back to back track and met another friend coming down into the woods to help. He was standing on one side of the creek and me on the other basically a big ditch. He is standing there and asks does your dog bite. I said no he jumps across the creek and my dogs meets him right in his face. If I hadn't had his leash on I shudder to think what would have happened. He then says in a pissed voice and I don't blame him I thought you said he didn't bite. I said he never has. Every since that time he didn't like any body but me or my dad and would tolerate one of my cousins. He had no bluff in him.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Jason, you can have a dog that backs down from nothing that challenges them but is totally non aggressive and always in control.


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## David Ruby (Jul 21, 2009)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> One aggitator ?? Like who ?? If I don't know what the **** you are saying, and you don't know what the **** I am saying, what kind of training gets accomplished.


The one I was referring to is a PSA & SchH agitator my trainer works with who told me pretty much don't worry about it until I'm that far in training my next dog and then worry about reading the dog not coming to some definitive definition for different "drives" in dog training. The trainer I'd be working with for the foundation said something along the lines of what Matthew quoted:

“There are no such things as drives… there are behaviors and motivation to perform the behavior.”

Basically, he doesn't see them as "drives" so much as just what state of mind they are in.

As for knowing what you're saying and what kind of training gets accomplished . . . I can get a general idea through context. However, really, I'm not training over the Internet in part for that very reason. My real life trainer can show my and explain and we can use the same examples and come to some common consensus. I can get ideas and some general idea through the context and example used to make an educated guess what you (or whomever) means by the terms and associated terminology. Still, even if I get some "brilliant" idea from a post on a forum, I still discuss it with my trainer so I don't misunderstand the context, or use it inappropriately either in the technique or based on where the dog and I am at in training.

What really matters is my trainer and I are on the same page, and I get good at reading my dog and not doing something stupid.



> Here however, I have watched dog after dog get abused in the name of creating fight drive....which isn't there. If you want to have more of an idea, there are a couple of really long threads you could read from the past.


I'm interested enough to check it out. I just took it as "fight drive" being a dog that was in the mental state of fighting for enjoyment, rather than playing with the agitator or being scared into reacting out of some state of fear or being oppressed. I can see how the search for some magical drive would lead people into pushing their dog into a defensive/survivalist mindset. But yeah, I can peruse the older threads. This one just happened to pop up, but it's not like I'm looking for some deep, personal inner meaning out of it or anything.

-Cheers


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## Jason Moore (May 3, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Jason, you can have a dog that backs down from nothing that challenges them but is totally non aggressive and always in control.


I see what your saying but the two I spoke of were really aggressive.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> "Don dosent seem to have any takers"
> 
> Mike, if you are referring to the pup....it's done. If the person getting the pup wants to say at this point it is up to them....but I do expect to see regular updates here.LOL It is an off breed you know. ](*,)


No I meant people replying to your question in the OP


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

"There are three true drives, sex, prey and I think the last is flight....all have to do with basic survival."


I think you need to add Food and Air, maybe water to this? Prey may be the food component?


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

I have no clue about any of this stuff. But it would be really interesting if a few people posted a video and labeled the drive the dog was in at that time. Or shown the same dog in what is different drives. I don’t know if the videos would really do it justice though.


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> When there is someone advancing with ill intent....i would rather see a dog take the fight to him so he is doing the defending. Between defense and offense, the stronger position is offense I would think.


Is this "fight" drive? To take the seriousness of a defense response _to the opposition_ with the 'advance-and-overcome' approach through prey maneuvers? (instead of fight or flight, there is _fight/*fend*/flight_, with defense more often associated with "fending" which then makes "fighting" seem to be a different drive)

Dogs that aren't really comfortable to the challenge or reluctant in heart but still willing to engage, could be viewed as "fending" in defense, versus those that can barely restrain themselves from eagerly engaging the threat toe-to-toe with intent to impose their will, and are really bringing the "fight" into their defense.

Whatever everyone decides to agree on, it is what it is, and whatever model of our understanding of what we _think we're seeing... probably isn't._ In fact, overall creates greater confusion than ever, and misconceived ideas about what it even means, ultimately, _or how to use it._ "The map is not the territory."

With several identifiable forms of "prey" (most of which are "context" dependant) there might as well be several forms of "defense" as well.


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Kyle Sprag said:


> "There are three true drives, sex, prey and I think the last is flight....all have to do with basic survival."
> 
> 
> I think you need to add Food and Air, maybe water to this? Prey may be the food component?


What about “flight”? Is that considered a drive?


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Chris McDonald said:


> What about “flight”? Is that considered a drive?


Yes, that is almost what it says...left the I out ....but the L is there.LOL


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

And all that really matters in the end...Is can the dog get the job done.


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Yes, that is almost what it says...left the I out ....but the L is there.LOL


you got sex right


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## Anna Kasho (Jan 16, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> IMHO fight isn't a true drive because, when faced with a superior animals, flight would be the natural choice normally. I would have to say that fight is more of a selected behavior in specific dogs simply because it isn't the choice they would naturally naturally.


That is very true. I watched a mother coyote keep a bear from digging up her den of pups, even have it on video somewhere. Her technique was to sneak up and bite the bear in the butt, then calmly run off keeping an eye on the bear behind her in hot pursuit. She went just fast enough to stay out of reach. The bear would get tired, drop out of the chase, and wander back to the den. She would follow, and bite his butt again. She kept it up until the bear gave up and left.

So she didn't race up and latch onto the bear's face with a deathgrip - but what she did was very effective, kept the bear from getting into the den, and kept her from getting injured so she'd still be able to care for the pups she saved.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Although I use the term "defence" in the same manner as most Schutzhund people I think a better take on it would be to say that the helper/decoy goes on the offence to see if the dog will defend itself because of a defensive (fear based) atttude or if it wants to get in the fight cause it wants to whip some ass.
Having worked dozens and dozens of terriers in the ground, a dog fighting in defence isn't going to stay at the quarry.
Again, I speak the lingo as many interpret it but, IMHO, defensive fighting is fear based. to much pressure and the dog is gonna back out.
Pressure form the helper either creates the defence or the desire to fight. 
That still has nothing to do with a dog that is truely game. Now your getting into a dog that truely thinks it's winning, no matter the punishment, be it fighting a human or quarry in/above the ground.


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## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

If Im missing something let me know, but arent KNPV dogs the premier dog for the gov when it comes to apprehension, and detection? If they are the go-to dog for the police and military, and excel at search and rescue and general detection work, arent they perhaps the #1 pool of working dogs, and not just a cop's choice? And even if they were the choice of cops, wouldnt that carry over into general security and PP work? Asking because I recently spent a lot of time looking into them.




Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote:
> I can't say I'm all that fascinated with the topic, just curious where people are coming from when they use these terms. I've had one agitator pretty much tell me not to worry about the terminology too much that most who discussed it didn't know what they were talking about. Still, it's good to know what people mean when they use these terms.
> 
> One aggitator ?? Like who ?? If I don't know what the **** you are saying, and you don't know what the **** I am saying, what kind of training gets accomplished.
> ...


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I would also agree with Don that fight/gameness/whatever, is a selected for "drive". In nature that canine with fight/gameness/whatever would soon be swimming in the bottom of a pond instead of a gene pool!


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## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

Question #2, wouldnt selecting, testing and breeding working dogs with fight drive for man be similar to the development of pit bulls for dog fighting? Eventually you would have a specialist....?





Bob Scott said:


> Although I use the term "defence" in the same manner as most Schutzhund people I think a better take on it would be to say that the helper/decoy goes on the offence to see if the dog will defend itself because of a defensive (fear based) atttude or if it wants to get in the fight cause it wants to whip some ass.
> Having worked dozens and dozens of terriers in the ground, a dog fighting in defence isn't going to stay at the quarry.
> Again, I speak the lingo as many interpret it but, IMHO, defensive fighting is fear based. to much pressure and the dog is gonna back out.
> Pressure form the helper either creates the defence or the desire to fight.
> That still has nothing to do with a dog that is truely game. Now your getting into a dog that truely thinks it's winning, no matter the punishment, be it fighting a human or quarry in/above the ground.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

On paper, yes but the fact is, breeding is still a crap shoot no matter how good your dogs are.
In school a genetics discussion (human) brought about the comment that it's supprising that brothers and sisters can even look alike considering the number of genetic possibilities. That wouldn't be any different in dog breeding but dog breeding can get a lot closer due to the lack of laws concerning mom to son  :-& brother to sister [-X in humans.
Even then if it was as simple as selecting, testing and breeding we'd all be doing it. To many are doing it as it is.


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## Robin Van Hecke (Sep 7, 2009)

Matt Grosch said:


> Question #2, wouldnt selecting, testing and breeding working dogs with fight drive for man be similar to the development of pit bulls for dog fighting? Eventually you would have a specialist....?


Bang on, that's the main if not the sole reason for the existence of the Malinois.


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

Appearantly, in twin studies, the in-common heritability among behavior traits lies somewhere around 50%. So, reliable predictability is somewhat "of a gamble". In dog breeding, I'd expect better, because of actual selection (when selected for, that is) toward already homozygous genes (due to previous selection and inbreeding) contributing toward a specific characteristic, heritability might gravitate around 75% range (or even greater, in breedings like Don's).



> In studying personality traits and intelligence, the latest research in quantitative genetics suggests that the heritability rate for many characteristics hovers around 50 percent. In 1988 a study of twins reared apart revealed the heritability of 11 common character traits. The findings, published in the Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, reported that social potency is 61% influenced by genes; traditionalism, 60%; stress reaction, 55%; absorption (having a vivid imagination), 55%; alienation, 55%; well-being, 54%; harm avoidance (avoiding dangerous activities), 51%; aggression, 48%; achievement, 46%; control, 43%; and social closeness, 33 percent.


I've got three pups that are beginning to remind me of nasty JRT's or the like. I'm breaking up serious fights nearly on a daily basis now. Today, my two girls were standing on their hind legs, locked onto each others necks for a couple minutes, neither would give in to the other, and it was hell breaking them apart.

NEITHER of the parents were like this in their youth, but ALL THREE are the same, with so much "fight" in them. Part being environmental, I think, because neither of the parents when growing up had siblings or other same-age dogs to contend with, that would refuse to give in as these three refuse to submit to each other.

That and, _as a single dog_ taking instruction or corrections for their unacceptable behavior, the behavior is easier modified into their adult stage. As _two or more dogs_, the urge to "fight" must be ceased in each simultaneously, lest the other dog again re-trigger the dog that has already settled.

A single tenacious spirit among a group can harmoniously coincide, when the others would relent before a great escalation takes place. But put two or more together, and a different story unfolds.


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## Butch Cappel (Aug 12, 2007)

Wow! None of the PP YoYo's have responded? If you'll give me a second to roll back up my string, I'll see if I can add anything. 

This may seem off topic but bear with me, first Christopher Jones said;
_The quickest way to confuse a discussion nowdays about this is to use the common terms (ie prey, fight, defence) because there doesnt seem to be common agreement of what these terms means. For me its simple.
_
This is where the confusion begins _"For me its simple"_ In the real world you don't get to makeup your own definitions, you have to use the ones the authorities give you. I know, I know, seems boring, cuts out a lot of variety, cuts down all your wiggle room when you have to explain something, but that is how it works, except in the Dog world.

So back in the real world in the early seventies Germans introduced SchH training and techniques. They used scientific guidelines instead of the "go with the gut" American way. This included the introduction of the scientific system of Drives. There were TWO and the winning SchH or effective PSD, or PP dog trainer used them both. They were Prey *and* Defense

We were taught that each Drive brought predictable physical responses in the dog. So if you can manipulate the drives you get the response you want from the dog. For a full mouth bite work Prey, for an intense hard bite work Defense. DOG CAN'T HELP IT! 

The short definition of a drive is "An involuntary physical response to a species threatening stimulus" puppy sees bug chases it, Grizzly Bear appears they run or stand and growl, but they don't think in either case they just react. That makes results easy to obtain.

Prey is a propelling drive, but there are two factors to Defense; Fight or Flight, both honorable in nature, because a;l that counts in nature, is who survives to reproduce (There's that Species saving thing again)

So what happens when you don't want your dog to save his species but your butt instead? If your training has been balanced Prey & Defense your dog has learned to always choose the FIGHT option. So when you stumble from the company picnic in the park and encounter that GO-rilla sized, MMA reject, that has turned to a life of crime to support his tattoo habit, you know when you sic Fido on him, your dog will always choose the FIGHT option.

If you have been training in Prey only, and your dog now understands that somebodies Bacon is going in the fire do you really want to wonder if he'll choose FLIGHT instead of Fight at that moment? And that is what Proper training in Defense guarantees you.

And No, you do not break the dog down and build them back up. But I haven't really met any of the PP Yoyo's that know anything about using Defense either, And I know the sport boys ain't getting this at all. 

Even my Pug will choose Fight.

Butch Cappel
www.k9ps.com


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

"But I haven't really met any of the PP Yoyo's that know anything about using Defense either, And I know the sport boys ain't getting this at all."

Well a lot of PP "YoYos'" know a lot about you and I wouldn't be so sure about what many "sport boys" know about the use of Defense in training.

But

In general I tend to agree with you in your post. You need to look at WHY the dog does what he/she does, bitting is just one of those WHY.


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## Butch Cappel (Aug 12, 2007)

Mr. Sprag,

I don't remember ever meeting you or having any conversations with you but your response has a sort of accusatory, personal tone to it. 

Care to elaborate on what is "known" about me? Or are you trying out for a position on that internet psychic network? 

So when did we meet? Have a phone conversation? Exchange letters? Have any type of contact, real world stuff?


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## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

Bob Scott said:


> I would also agree with Don that fight/gameness/whatever, is a selected for "drive". In nature that canine with fight/gameness/whatever would soon be swimming in the bottom of a pond instead of a gene pool!





thats what I always thought, gameness seems to be the exact opposite of a survival instinct...selective breeding to go against nature, instincts, etc


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## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

Also, all my analogies come from fight training, MMA, (people). I dont know how much it correlates, but.

If guys put on the boxing gloves, you kinda kinda lightly spar and train in a friendly way. If you get an a-hole that is going to hard you thing 'oh, so thats they way its gonna be', and you switch towards a more real fight. New guys and retards cant 'train' and can only go 90%+

If you are new, or at times in other situations, you might have some fear/apprehension.

But the champs seem to have a professional, stoic, workmanlike attitude towards it.


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

Butch Cappel said:


> Mr. Sprag,
> 
> I don't remember ever meeting you or having any conversations with you but your response has a sort of accusatory, personal tone to it.
> 
> ...


 
Accusatory of what?

No, we have never met or spoken.

I don't think you would care to hear what the dozen or so people I know that have Competed, decoyed and/or judged your events over the years have to say about you. Lets just say it is not flattering.


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## Rick Mattox (Dec 8, 2008)

I like Butch Cappel's comment above. QUOTE: "And No, you do not break the dog down and build them back up."

A dog that's is 50/50 prey, defense and has a lot of both is best. Of course you must be able to train to keep both drives balanced. 

Prey's great and is needed. Although when the "bad guy" stops playing and becomes a threat then the defense drive kicks in. In Sch. training when your dogs on the sleeve and is being worked in prey and then the helper pulls the dog in to him and leans over him and drives the dog giving hard stick hits (not that straight backed stick waving prey crap) at that moment the helper just became a threat and your dog just went into his defensive drive. Let alone if you have a good old school helper that will go to the ground and wrap up the dog with his legs, work him into a wall, trees... (of course only when they've progreesed enough to be able to handle the pressure) 


If you've broken down the dog in training (to the point of flight) and have to build him back up you went too far. You just gave the dog another option in his mind. Now he knows I can fight OR I can run. He's done it before he'll do it again when he feels the need.

Now if you train and push the dog increasing his threshold each time, you get a much better dog. The dog learns fighting harder makes him win. The dog's never ran so it doesn't even think of that. The harder the "bad guy" fights the harder the dog fights and he wins. The dog has never met a helper he couldn't defeat by biting and fighting harder so he just does what he knows.


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## Jason Moore (May 3, 2009)

Rick Mattox said:


> I like Butch Cappel's comment above. QUOTE: "And No, you do not break the dog down and build them back up."
> 
> A dog that's is 50/50 prey, defense and has a lot of both is best. Of course you must be able to train to keep both drives balanced.
> 
> ...


 This is exactly what I was talking about earlier or trying to get across in one of my earlier post. Not get your dog to the breaking point but maybe close to it. With this I know one would have to have a precise ability to read his or her dog to do this or a good helper. But IMO it just seems as within hunting and baying hogs that each time out they get braver. Also we would start the dog off as a pup on pigs. And go from there. Obviously you don't put a 3 month old pup in the pen with a 250 lb hog. He probably wouldn't survive letalone make any progress. And I know the same will apply with my dogs in there future training. Same mentality completely different methods of course. LOL


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## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

Another person analogy....im reading "Lone Survivor" (the book written by the navy seal and Afghanistan), he just finished talking about how in hell week after a guy taps out and rings the bell, the instructors give them another chance and ask them if they want to change their mind. Supposedly every guy that has gone back and tried again never lasts after breaking that first time.


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## Dan Brigham (Jul 23, 2009)

Anna Kasho said:


> That is very true. I watched a mother coyote keep a bear from digging up her den of pups, even have it on video somewhere. Her technique was to sneak up and bite the bear in the butt, then calmly run off keeping an eye on the bear behind her in hot pursuit. She went just fast enough to stay out of reach. The bear would get tired, drop out of the chase, and wander back to the den. She would follow, and bite his butt again. She kept it up until the bear gave up and left.
> 
> So she didn't race up and latch onto the bear's face with a deathgrip - but what she did was very effective, kept the bear from getting into the den, and kept her from getting injured so she'd still be able to care for the pups she saved.


This posting of Anne's shows another drive that has not really been talked about in the discussion, indeed it was definitely not mentioned in Don Turnipseed's listing of drives. That drive is Pack Drive, the drive to defend another member of one's own pack, often to the possible detriment of their own life. I was going to write that females often have a better pack drive than males but I have seen some males with outstanding fight drive that makes me re-think saying that. 

The few times that I have seen the successful use of defense drive used to create fight drive, pack drive was a major factor in that decision. A dog with good pack drive and the handler better be a big part of that pack. 

It may seem that I am in favor of working in defense, however that is far from the case. Purely working in defense should be a last case scenario, there isn't a lot of room for error and the downside is substantial. 

My definition of a drive is something that a dog does that is hard-wired that can be manipulated to use for training. I saw the reference to 'air drive' in a previous posting, while air is essential and is a hard-wired need, it is pretty far fetched as to how to use it usefully in training. Food drive, while also essential can be manipulated for training use.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Kyle Sprag said:


> Accusatory of what?
> 
> No, we have never met or spoken.
> 
> I don't think you would care to hear what the dozen or so people I know that have Competed, decoyed and/or judged your events over the years have to say about you. Lets just say it is not flattering.



Lets just say that since your opinions are based on someone else's views and not your personel expierience the direction of that conversation should be avoided.


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> Lets just say that since your opinions are based on someone else's views and not your personel expierience the direction of that conversation should be avoided.


He asked what was told to me and I answered it, that simple. If I had wanted to take it in that direction I would have.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: 
If Im missing something let me know, but arent KNPV dogs the premier dog for the gov when it comes to apprehension, and detection? If they are the go-to dog for the police and military, and excel at search and rescue and general detection work, arent they perhaps the #1 pool of working dogs, and not just a cop's choice? And even if they were the choice of cops, wouldnt that carry over into general security and PP work? Asking because I recently spent a lot of time looking into them

First off, the Government buys dogs from all over. KNPV dogs are just as ****ed up in as many ways as any other dog. Put one on a FR decoy and watch him melt like butter.

A good dog is a good dog. One of the reasons that I chose a GSD from FR lines was the fact that I felt had a better chance of getting a dog with the thresholds I wanted.

Try not to think about this sport is all that or whatever, try and think what kind of dog do I want, and where do I go to get it.

THis is your first dog of sorts, so you will find that your opinion either is reinforced, or denied. LOL


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## Mike Lauer (Jul 26, 2009)

you ever been in a fight?
you were scared the first time and a little less scared the next time
it seems to me to be about overcoming insecurities 
working thru fears and winning


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Ever figure out that you are human, and your fight analogy is shit ???

Ever meet the guy that fought ONE time in his life and it effects his way of thinking the rest of his life ??

There is sooooo much wrong with equating what dogs do to what humans do. It is not the way to look at it.....unless you want to wear rose colored glasses.

How many of you guys answering actually work dogs anyway ??? LOL

I am thinking maybe 4. BUSTED


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## Butch Cappel (Aug 12, 2007)

Thank you Mr. Scott.

Mr. Sprag you can call me anytime as I have no idea what you could be talking about, but have no problem discussing it, just not in the middle of good dog stuff 817 483 2026 and I'll be glad to give you the names of hundreds of people that have competed, decoyed and judged for me for over 17 years on three continents, if you need verification of anything you may have heard from a dozen.


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

Butch Cappel said:


> Thank you Mr. Scott.
> 
> Mr. Sprag you can call me anytime as I have no idea what you could be talking about, but have no problem discussing it, just not in the middle of good dog stuff 817 483 2026 and I'll be glad to give you the names of hundreds of people that have competed, decoyed and judged for me for over 17 years on three continents, if you need verification of anything you may have heard from a dozen.


 
That's OK, I can read a trial schedule, see the number of entrants and talk to people who have attended a trial recently to deduct what is going on. Lets leave it at that.;-)

I will say, everyone says that you are one of the best at Marketing Ever! I mean that as a positive.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Ever figure out that you are human, and your fight analogy is shit ???
> 
> Ever meet the guy that fought ONE time in his life and it effects his way of thinking the rest of his life ??
> 
> ...


Jeff, you know I think dogs act just like people or visa. versa. Remember the red neck bar analogy. I say you can classify every dog by the people in a red neck bar.....and the hotties still always go home with the winner.LOL If a person kicks ass the first fight...he's gonna do it again, but, if he gets his ass kicked....he isn't so eager. Dogs are the same way pretty much.


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## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

Mike Lauer said:


> you ever been in a fight?
> you were scared the first time and a little less scared the next time
> it seems to me to be about overcoming insecurities
> working thru fears and winning




I would think the training analogy is much closer than an actual fight.


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## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote:
> If Im missing something let me know, but arent KNPV dogs the premier dog for the gov when it comes to apprehension, and detection? If they are the go-to dog for the police and military, and excel at search and rescue and general detection work, arent they perhaps the #1 pool of working dogs, and not just a cop's choice? And even if they were the choice of cops, wouldnt that carry over into general security and PP work? Asking because I recently spent a lot of time looking into them
> 
> First off, the Government buys dogs from all over. KNPV dogs are just as ****ed up in as many ways as any other dog. Put one on a FR decoy and watch him melt like butter.
> ...



^ Correct, but some things about your claims seem unreasonable. First, if a FR dog can take more than a KNPV dog, this would at least to some degree be known, in PSA, police/military, etc. Second, a FR decoy that is a member here chose a KNPV dog. And its just one example, but the PSA trainer/decoy I will be working with (that does work with various PD dept's in the area and was refered to me by one of the K9's, told me the only dogs in the area that he feels would have a good chance of not being run off a field are a couple knpv ducthies that a small neighboring city has.

I dont have a credible opinion, but many that do seem to disagree.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

It would be interesting to see how a good KNPV dog would deal with a good FR decoy, probably wont make it to Youtube though.


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## Jason Moore (May 3, 2009)

IMO putting a knpv dog on a seasoned fr decoy even though I don't know jack about either just doesn't seem like it would be a fair thing to do. With out some exposure first on that type of training. Just like every body says how do you know your dog will bite a person. How do you know a dog will bite a suit witha person running and screaming at them. A police dog ins't used to the suspect running at them screaming its pretty much the exact opposite. So a sudden change in the dogs usual prey would probably through even the best of dogs off. JMO but what do I know I'm noob that's only started to train my dog.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: ^ Correct, but some things about your claims seem unreasonable. First, if a FR dog can take more than a KNPV dog, this would at least to some degree be known, in PSA, police/military, etc. Second, a FR decoy that is a member here chose a KNPV dog. And its just one example, but the PSA trainer/decoy I will be working with (that does work with various PD dept's in the area and was refered to me by one of the K9's, told me the only dogs in the area that he feels would have a good chance of not being run off a field are a couple knpv ducthies that a small neighboring city has.

So it is just the sport. No FR dog could ever take what a KNPV dog could take and you are taking the word of a PSA trainer. I have seen more duds from KNPV lines than I care to mention. 

Quote: IMO putting a knpv dog on a seasoned fr decoy even though I don't know jack about either just doesn't seem like it would be a fair thing to do

Exactly. The point I am trying to make is that he is getting all hung up on a sport, and not what the dog is, and where it comes from. There needs to be a bit of a balance, and it is not the sport that makes the dog, it is the training.

Frawley has a FR decoy run a KNPV dog off. At the Mondio trial in Belgium, the KNPV dog just kept bouncing off, and looked like shit. The dog basically gave up. There is more to choosing a pup than the sport, that is what I was trying to get across. 

Quote: Second, a FR decoy that is a member here chose a KNPV dog.

So ****ing what ?? LOL There are a lot of people that are decoys that are absolutely clueless. Do you think that the certification covers choosing the right dog ?? LOL

Maybe he just likes the dog, maybe he got it for free, who knows and who cares. YOUR job is to stop listening with the mindset of what these people say are absolutes. You gotta find your own music to dance to. : )


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

When you talk about real fight, keep in mind the "bad guy" doesn't have any "decoy" or "helper" training. He's truly afraid or drugged and sometimes really tries to hurt the dog. Sometimes they succeed. That is when you find out if the dog has fight in it or not. The old saying is; it's not the size of the dog in the fight; it's the size of the fight in the dog. I chuckle when you talk about a KNVP dog and a FR decoy or any other combination of decoy. Generally, training is only a prelim, or a sparring match. 

DFrost


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: And its just one example, but the PSA trainer/decoy I will be working with (that does work with various PD dept's in the area and was refered to me by one of the K9's, told me the only dogs in the area that he feels would have a good chance of not being run off a field are a couple knpv ducthies that a small neighboring city has.

Stay away from absolutes. Think on your own, and learn dogs, not what someone says.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VFtIXsVoe1w

Guess what sport this dog was trained in ??


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

I chuckle when you talk about a KNVP dog and a FR decoy or any other combination of decoy. 

Dam, he chuckles at you.. Word up Yo!


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: And its just one example, but the PSA trainer/decoy I will be working with (that does work with various PD dept's in the area and was refered to me by one of the K9's, told me the only dogs in the area that he feels would have a good chance of not being run off a field are a couple knpv ducthies that a small neighboring city has.
> 
> Stay away from absolutes. Think on your own, and learn dogs, not what someone says.
> 
> ...


 
I love that Video, I know someone who traines with that Department and knows the dog.

BIG guy "throwing" that little hearder around, lost most of the use of his left arm and would have Bled to death without medical intervention. =D>


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Kyle Sprag said:


> I love that Video, I know someone who traines with that Department and knows the dog.
> 
> BIG guy "throwing" that little hearder around, lost most of the use of his left arm and would have Bled to death without medical intervention. =D>


And they gave him medical treatment why?


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## Candy Eggert (Oct 28, 2008)

Kyle Sprag said:


> I love that Video, I know someone who traines with that Department and knows the dog.
> 
> BIG guy "throwing" that little hearder around, lost most of the use of his left arm and would have Bled to death without medical intervention. =D>


And I'll bet the taxpayers have pay to fix his little hurt owie :roll::roll::roll:


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## Mike Lauer (Jul 26, 2009)

metaphors aren't meant to be an exact correlation
I was just trying to get a concept across, not say they were exactly the same

personally I like my dogs and enjoy working them
They will never bite for real, I carry a gun, i would protect them from harm

its the same age old question of soldiers, could you kill another human being
a lot of people say they could, but you never actually know for sure until it happens


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: I chuckle when you talk about a KNVP dog and a FR decoy or any other combination of decoy. Generally, training is only a prelim, or a sparring match. 

Then there are the many police dogs that get run by us goofball not serious "sport" trainers. If I had a dollar for every ****ing useless police dog, I would be absolutely ****ing fabulous.

We chuckle a lot as well when we sell you our trash. Maybe you don't fall for it, but a ****load of depts do. I remember selling good dogs and what happened. I am still seeing it today. WTF right ???

HA HA


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## kristin tresidder (Oct 23, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VFtIXsVoe1w
> 
> Guess what sport this dog was trained in ??


so, what's the answer?


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

French ring.


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## Chris Keister (Jun 28, 2008)

I was told that the dog in the video was started and trained in FR, but was bred in Holland or came from Dutch breeding?

Can anyone confirm or deny that?


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## jack van strien (Apr 9, 2009)

Do you know the name of the dog in the video?


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## Loring Cox (Sep 6, 2008)

His name was Leon... RIP.

Most of the questions are answered in this article:

http://www.eastvalleytribune.com/story/86284


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Frawley has a FR decoy run a KNPV dog off. At the Mondio trial in Belgium, the KNPV dog just kept bouncing off, and looked like shit. The dog basically gave up.


What do you know about the dog in question? A club member of ours father was in the first Mondio ring event in Belgium. The video of Eds is actually the second event. So in the first year there was a Dutch team made up of people such as Albert Kamphuis, Jan Tinnemans, Berkelaar, Wilhem Gepkin. This first Dutch team had absolutley no idea about what the Mondio was all about. They all thought they were giving a KNPV demonstration. So they rock up and did their demonstration and then were asked to compete in the Mondio trial. So their dogs didnt know the routine and of course points wise they came behind the ring guys. However their dogs were not ran from the field and infact the French decoys commented to the Dutch guys that they were very impressed by their dogs and infact they said "a couple of them were scarey dogs". 
After this they were then asked to go to Switzerland to do demonstrations there as well.
So the next year (Ed's one) the Dutch team was asked to go again but all the main guys were busy and couldnt go. In the end the Mondio guys asked a club member of Albert Kamphuis to go instead to which he agreed. His dog was an average dog at best and wasnt even titled. He was told by his club members not to attend as his dogs wasnt good enough and the guy was stubborn and went anyway. He is the Dutch dog you see on the video.


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## andreas broqvist (Jun 2, 2009)

Was the dog only 1 years of age when he started working the streets? and not even 1.5 years when he tock down that HUGE guy?


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## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

[Exactly. The point I am trying to make is that he is getting all hung up on a sport, and not what the dog is, and where it comes from. There needs to be a bit of a balance, and it is not the sport that makes the dog, it is the training.]


It would make sense that its the nature and the nurture. But if a dog has solid genetics, and does good training, there you go. But ref the sport, thats really all you have to go on in terms of comparison. 1) its like the UFC, you here some guys say 'thats a sport, its not a real fight', but the fact is, no one in the world is going to beat thos guys out of the ring. So, it comes down to the right sport (with a little supplement of PP if that your purpose). It seems generally outside of the debate that PSA and KNPV are much closer to real combat than something like schutz (im too unfamilar with FR to comment on it), so the dogs that excel at those more realistic sports are going to be better in real life.


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## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

[So ****ing what ?? LOL There are a lot of people that are decoys that are absolutely clueless. Do you think that the certification covers choosing the right dog ?? LOL

Maybe he just likes the dog, maybe he got it for free, who knows and who cares. YOUR job is to stop listening with the mindset of what these people say are absolutes. You gotta find your own music to dance to. : )]


If im a novice the only reasonable direction is to find those whose accomplishment and experience merit respect, the guy I mentioned has a good resume, and if he was a broad exposure to FR and chose a KNPV pup when seeking out the best, that counts for something.

Thats not an absolute, just some substantial evidence.

(I have to respond in different posts because the 'reply' function isnt user friendly)


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## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: And its just one example, but the PSA trainer/decoy I will be working with (that does work with various PD dept's in the area and was refered to me by one of the K9's, told me the only dogs in the area that he feels would have a good chance of not being run off a field are a couple knpv ducthies that a small neighboring city has.
> 
> Stay away from absolutes. Think on your own, and learn dogs, not what someone says.
> 
> ...




Interestingly, the dutch shepherds I was talking about are from the city next to the one from your vid, they know each other and train together to some degree, I am highly certain that the officers in your vid would agree with me that those dutch shepherds are the best dogs around (I have been helping train k9's with the third city that connects to those two)

Again, not absolutes, just facts/evidence..... (I agree that a person should not stop being open and learning.....I did switch over from bullies so even you have to give some credit for that)


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Sport dogs are nothing remotely similar to UFC. After doing the dance routine 5 or 10 times, the ones that are looking good have figured out it is a game and no one is getting hurt. The rest are either not game players or the rest of the rest your going to spend a alot of time trying to make them look like something they are not. There is no real test that is going to tell you how an individual dog is going to act when things get real tough. I think it was David that pointed out that sportswork is just like sparring for the big fight .....and you never know what is going to happen until that big fight. Something really simple can throw them totally off their "game".....like maybe it is nightime and dark.


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## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

It is similar to the UFC because all a (sport) fight is, is sparring/training kicked up a notch.....where a 'street fight', cop fighting suspect, etc, is cranked up even higher, but the guy that has trained to fight hard at 'sport' speed/pace has a very high chance of winning



whereas something like tae kwan do offers very little benefit in real life


So basically, schutzhund is like TKD, and (good) PSA would be like MMA


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: It seems generally outside of the debate that PSA and KNPV are much closer to real combat than something like schutz (im too unfamilar with FR to comment on it), so the dogs that excel at those more realistic sports are going to be better in real life.

The big thing here is not to get caught up in what sport is what sport when you are brand new. The idea is to watch and work a bunch of dogs so that you start to see what is the dog, and what is the training.

When I look at a dog, it is not how many points the dog scored, or wether or not he wins, I am looking to TRY and tell how much of what I am seeing is good training, and how much is the dog.

That is one of the reasons I don't like training that spins the dog up to make them look more intense. I know that people are trying to win and what not, but for me, I don't give a shit if they win. I am looking for the dog to breed, and I always am.

One day I would like to see this country produce a G'Vitou. LOL

Don. Sport is what it is, but after you have been doing it a while, you start to see better what the dog is. I think that just like with horses, some have the "eye" and some absolutely do not.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote:
> Then there are the many police dogs that get run by us goofball not serious "sport" trainers. If I had a dollar for every ****ing useless police dog, I would be absolutely ****ing fabulous.
> 
> We chuckle a lot as well when we sell you our trash. Maybe you don't fall for it, but a ****load of depts do. I remember selling good dogs and what happened. I am still seeing it today. WTF right ???
> ...


I can't argue there are some psd's that shouldn't be working. However, if you had a dollar for every useless police dog you've run off I would suspect you could maybe buy a sixpack, certainly not the brewery. While I won't engage in a "my dog's badder than yours" exercise I'll point out the dog in the video you posted is a pretty good example of what I see around here. Admittedly, I have an untested dog, waiting on that first real encounter. There is always the possibility he'll be run off, but I seriously doubt it. Until then, we'll just continue to muddle through and let you big time sport trainers do the real stuff.

DFrost


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## andreas broqvist (Jun 2, 2009)

> When I look at a dog, it is not how many points the dog scored, or wether or not he wins, I am looking to TRY and tell how much of what I am seeing is good training, and how much is the dog.
> 
> That is one of the reasons I don't like training that spins the dog up to make them look more intense. I know that people are trying to win and what not, but for me, I don't give a shit if they win. I am looking for the dog to breed, and I always am.


Dame Jeff, Somtime you just nails it!


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

we'll just continue to muddle through and let you big time sport trainers do the real stuff.

Now thats really "Word"


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## Jason Moore (May 3, 2009)

Kyle Sprag said:


> I love that Video, I know someone who traines with that Department and knows the dog.
> 
> BIG guy "throwing" that little hearder around, lost most of the use of his left arm and would have Bled to death without medical intervention. =D>


 So what was the dog trained in.LOL sorry meant to quote Jeff but you know the dog as well so one of you answer. LOL


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## Meng Xiong (Jan 21, 2009)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: It seems generally outside of the debate that PSA and KNPV are much closer to real combat than something like schutz (im too unfamilar with FR to comment on it), so the dogs that excel at those more realistic sports are going to be better in real life.
> 
> The big thing here is not to get caught up in what sport is what sport when you are brand new. The idea is to watch and work a bunch of dogs so that you start to see what is the dog, and what is the training.


Thats some good readin right there!

I have a sub-question in this very interesting thread... Ive heard that in current Schutzhund, its possible to actually lose points if the dog shows too much fight?


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## Robin Van Hecke (Sep 7, 2009)

Meng Xiong said:


> Thats some good readin right there!
> 
> I have a sub-question in this very interesting thread... Ive heard that in current Schutzhund, its possible to actually lose points if the dog shows too much fight?


Too much fight almost always results in less control. Schutzhund is all about obedience,even secondary obedience. Too bad but that's the way the game is nowadays.


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## Loring Cox (Sep 6, 2008)

Leon was French Ring trained. Adlerhorst will import KNPV, FR, NVBK, IPO, and Sch dogs.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Meng Xiong said:


> Thats some good readin right there!
> 
> I have a sub-question in this very interesting thread... Ive heard that in current Schutzhund, its possible to actually lose points if the dog shows too much fight?


Nope you will lose points for lack or loss of control but for to much fight.
WTF Pfffft whare do n00bs come up with with this goofy shit good god.:lol:


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Mike Scheiber said:


> Nope you will lose points for lack or loss of control but [not] for to much fight.
> WTF Pfffft whare do n00bs come up with with this goofy shit good god.:lol:



They read it on the bad forums. Then this forum straightens it all out.




:lol:


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Connie Sutherland said:


> They read it on the bad forums. Then this forum straightens it all out.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks for fixing that or should I say straightening things out


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Does the pressure of these skilled decoys really compare to the real thing or are they not really close? I really don’t know but have a tough time believing they do. Some of you are comparing dog sports to human fight sports. I think the only relationship that ring/mat sports have with dog sports is neither of them is real. It’s all just a game and everyone involved knows it. I could kind of see why Dave would chuckle. 
So if a dog that had proven himself real several times over and performed things such as in the video was run off the field by a man in a clown suit that is an expert in eye contact is he a total shitter of just not a sport dog? Or is this just impossible to run the proven dog of the field?


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

David Frost said:


> . I chuckle when you talk about a KNVP dog and a FR decoy or any other combination of decoy. Generally, training is only a prelim, or a sparring match.
> DFrost


So, police do not train with different types of people in different situations ? Do your dogs go straight to biting meat on any person you choose ?


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## Jason Moore (May 3, 2009)

Chris McDonald said:


> Does the pressure of these skilled decoys really compare to the real thing or are they not really close? I really don’t know but have a tough time believing they do. Some of you are comparing dog sports to human fight sports. I think the only relationship that ring/mat sports have with dog sports is neither of them is real. It’s all just a game and everyone involved knows it. I could kind of see why Dave would chuckle.
> So if a dog that had proven himself real several times over and performed things such as in the video was run off the field by a man in a clown suit that is an expert in eye contact is he a total shitter of just not a sport dog? Or is this just impossible to run the proven dog of the field?


What do you mean by the real thing chris? Like a psd.


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

I am learning from this site that a “real dog” means it had several real bites at minumum, and I can see that it aint proven till it’s been proven a few times like a PSD. If we go with that theory my father occasionally speaks of a GS named Butch that ate VC on a regular basis and performed this during full blown war, there have been pretty serious dogs of war… the dogs have been proven “real” but I don’t think I would be that surprised if dog proven to that extent was run of a field by a clown with good eye contact? Is it possible? 
I really don’t know what the hell I am talking about, but sport aint real, and I would think that is what Dave is chuckling about


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> So, police do not train with different types of people in different situations ? Do your dogs go straight to biting meat on any person you choose ?


Not exactly sure what you are asking. It's pretty much out of context from where my comment was in the discussion. None the less, yes we do use different types of people in different situations. Hopefully they don't go straight to biting meat on any person we chose. Actually, for the most part, the stories of wino joe are widly exaggerated. As has been said before in different threads; the "first" time is often a hold your breath moment. As much as a trainer may try to replicate what's going to happen during an actual engagement, they can never be certain. An actual engagement could well put more pressure on a dog than a trainer would ever attempt. Sometimes, no pressure at all, just running away and the dog is confused about engaging because he's not being confronted. As I said, that first time is often a hold your breath moment. 

DFrost


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

David Frost said:


> Not exactly sure what you are asking. It's pretty much out of context from where my comment was in the discussion. None the less, yes we do use different types of people in different situations. Hopefully they don't go straight to biting meat on any person we chose. Actually, for the most part, the stories of wino joe are widly exaggerated. As has been said before in different threads; the "first" time is often a hold your breath moment. As much as a trainer may try to replicate what's going to happen during an actual engagement, they can never be certain. An actual engagement could well put more pressure on a dog than a trainer would ever attempt. Sometimes, no pressure at all, just running away and the dog is confused about engaging because he's not being confronted. As I said, that first time is often a hold your breath moment.
> 
> DFrost


Fair enough, why then would you see the situation of a dog trained in one sport being worked in a different way by a decoy from another sport as funny ?


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## andreas broqvist (Jun 2, 2009)

Mike Scheiber said:


> Nope you will lose points for lack or loss of control but for to much fight.
> WTF Pfffft whare do n00bs come up with with this goofy shit good god.:lol:


You know Mike, When you talkt to popel that dosent get ther tittels ore the points the want they ALWAYS have a dog that is TO MUTSH for the sport, its not that the dog is badly traind ore not under control, Its just to mutsh dog 

So maby it isent so odd that romurs like this gets around


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> Fair enough, why then would you see the situation of a dog trained in one sport being worked in a different way by a decoy from another sport as funny ?



My comments were pertaining to the pressure put on a dog by a decoy, during training, trialing or in our business certification. My comments were:"When you talk about real fight, keep in mind the "bad guy" doesn't have any "decoy" or "helper" training. He's truly afraid or drugged and sometimes really tries to hurt the dog. Sometimes they succeed. That is when you find out if the dog has fight in it or not. The old saying is; it's not the size of the dog in the fight; it's the size of the fight in the dog. I chuckle when you talk about a KNVP dog and a FR decoy or any other combination of decoy. Generally, training is only a prelim, or a sparring match."

Tthe comments would apply equally to an experienced police decoy, or any other type, sport or otherwise, of experienced decoy. I know nothing about sport have stated that in the past. I do, however, have some experience in actual engagements with dogs during many different situations. How a dog will react the first time is predictable, based on training. The predictability increases with each actual engagement. Even with that, there is still no guarentee the dog will perform each and every time.

DFrost


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## Meng Xiong (Jan 21, 2009)

Connie Sutherland said:


> They read it on the bad forums. Then this forum straightens it all out.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well, being a noob and having only trained under one TD, you can imagine its very easy to get confused when the dogs you see at your club don't always prance around like the dogs seen on the internet videos... and hearing my TD talk about the politics and current state of Schutzhund, "its a bunch of bullsh!t, most clubs now days train like a bunch of pussies." And he's told stories of his dogs getting docked points for showing too much fight.

I feel very priveledged to train with the people that I do, but it took me a second to figure out what Schutzhund was really meant for... its just a tool, you got to really look at the dog in front of you.


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## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

Meng Xiong;140214And he's told stories of his dogs getting docked points for showing too much fight.[quote said:


> I dont know who your trainer is and I agree with him on some points. I actually think for Sch the dog should be worked in both prey/ defense....blah blah blah.
> 
> What I am curious about is...... did the judge actually say "and such and such amount of points for too much fight?" I find that hard to believe, but anything is possible, can you tell us which judge?
> 
> ...


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## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

I am not experienced enough to have an opinion (my default preface for the most part here)....but could that really be that you have working dog (sport) judges that arent serious and dont think the dog should be ready and willing to F someone up?


Like an old lady you would see at an AKC dog show that would be horrified by seeing a real (justified) bite and its damage as opposed to thinking its freakin awesome?

Like someone thats a judge at a frisbee, agility, or the thing where people dance with their dog event....being somewhere where they shouldnt be judging someonthing that they should have no part of?


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## Meng Xiong (Jan 21, 2009)

Matt Grosch said:


> I am not experienced enough to have an opinion (my default preface for the most part here)....but could that really be that you have working dog (sport) judges that arent serious and dont think the dog should be ready and willing to F someone up?
> 
> 
> Like an old lady you would see at an AKC dog show that would be horrified by seeing a real (justified) bite and its damage as opposed to thinking its freakin awesome?
> ...


Yeah, i also don't have enough experience to have an opinion, but my understanding is that exactly what you mentioned above is the direction Schutzhund is headed. But I dont' really know, I just hear things. 

On another side note, what was sport work like back in the 70s, 80s and 90s? What are some of the trends you guys have seen in dogs as it relates to substance.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Concerning the sport venues, some appear to have gone heavily towards obedience while in drive or defense more so than actual protection work. It is much like the pointer field trials where they want a 12 o'clock tail rather than an 11 o'clock tail for no practical purpose other than some thinks it looks better. Has nothing to do with birdwork much as some of the stuff I see has nothing to do with a good solid dog that takes care of business but knows when the fight is won and stands down. I have seen some of the French elite vids and they don't call those mals off.....the #1 handler pulls the dog off the bad guy and the second handler pulls the dog off the first handler. They must have forgot to teach the dog the obedience rituals of the game. Now, I want that dog on my side.....and I am not pulling him off.LOL


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## Nick Sword (Sep 9, 2009)

Leerburg Kennels has a good informative training dvd on this subject. Check it out


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## Mike Lauer (Jul 26, 2009)

> Leerburg Kennels has a good informative training dvd on this subject. Check it out


hahaha now that made me laugh out loud
sport is sport, life is life
dont get hung up on points
i know a guy who got DQ'd cause his dog wouldnt out
he was proud because of the circumstances
the dog has great OB and is normally a robot but was geeked up
he saw that as a good thing


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## Jehane Michael Le Grange (Feb 24, 2009)

My take on it is, develop a dog's bite work in prey drive and when they are ready for it start switching them onto civil situations to bring out more of a fight drive as opposed to defense...some dogs with little prey drive and more natural aggression (more fight orientated) or civil aggression prefer to be worked that way, they don't like chasing a rag or sausage but enjoy challenging a helper, these dogs are also good at protection work but ideally, to have a versatile dog, you want high prey drive as well as a dog that switches into an aggressive and domineering fight drive when the situation is necessary. this will also vary depending on what type of protection work you are wanting...


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## Rory De Hindeberg (Aug 24, 2009)

Another question on the subject; do you think a dog that has been trained to bite full mouth will bite that way in defense or fight (if you are a 'fight drive' person)?


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Rory De Hindeberg said:


> Another question on the subject; do you think a dog that has been trained to bite full mouth will bite that way in defense or fight (if you are a 'fight drive' person)?


Genetic or trained, the dog isn't going to hold onto anything if it doesn't have the heart.
If it isn't genetic then most dogs will go back to what is natural for them under stress.
If it is genetic and the training is crap, the dog is gonna loose that "genetic" grip.


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## Alegria Cebreco (Jul 25, 2007)

I thought defense was cool before I really understood it. My first dog was over confident that NOTHING phased him. In the 1 1/2 years that I had him, I heard him bark 3 times (his "real" bark). I was very into 'my dog protecting me in real life" (that opinion has changed drastically) and never felt he would know a threat if it bit him in the butt. 

So now I have a dog a complete opposite of my first. Eyes are always moving, watching, notices the tinniest movements sounds ect. Isnt a rediculous barker, but does bark when he hears something. He is very defensive, and I dont like it at all. He's an awesome dog, I love him but after observing his behaviors compared to an overly confident unphased dog, I prefer the latter personally (or maybe more of a middle ground). I didnt understand the different types of agression, to me aggression was agression and thats what I sought out for. My first dog never showed an ounce of agression, but now looking back and having more insight on his temperament, he never showed agression because he never felt like he needed to, doesnt mean he was a mush like I thought. 

But I'm starting to understand what I really want in a dog, and what type of dog would be better suited for me. Its a learning process.


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## Mike Lauer (Jul 26, 2009)

http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/members/alegria-cebreco/Alegria, thats exactly where I am at right now
My first dog is un-phased by nearly everything
she plays the game but honestly no aggression
the decoy could hit her in the nose with the stick, she might bark a bit deeper at that and maybe we see a slight tinge of anger
but if the decoy stopped, stood still and called her the next second she would walk up and let him pet her
she doesn't see anyone as a threat

my question has always been, is that because this is a game and they really are not a threat or is she a shitter...LOL


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