# Agree to Disagree



## Lacey Vessell (Nov 18, 2006)

So as not to hijack anyone elses topic again (my apologies), I'll post this here: Back in my ignorant days, I thought only police k-9's who were properly trained, along with their handlers, were the only "real" dogs. I thought that "sport dogs" were lacking. Not just one sport or the other - all. As I said, that was back in my ignorant days. 

I have since opened my eyes to see what I could not/would not before. A person choses to enter a specific sport or job with their dog usually for one of two reasons - it is what caught this person's interest or because that is what is available geographically to the person. Whichever the reason, whatever the sport/job, the person should be commended for the time and effort and determination it takes to obtain any title with their dog. I have seen way to many of the working breeds tied to a tree out back - if nothing else these "sport dogs" have a purpose and are usually treated much better then the throw aways. If one was to take an honest and open minded assessment of all the dog sports and yes, even the national certification for police k-9's - *none* of them test everything about a dog - all have their faults. There is no such thing as the perfect test of a dog or the perfect dog. 

The "politics" of various sports is what drives most people (who have the luxury of having other sports nearby) from that particular sport in search of a "better" one. I would love to have a dog that can compete (with high scores) in them all - is it possible? don't know, but I'm sure gonna try and have fun doing it with my dogs. 

Those that can.....do.....those that can't.....bash. :twisted:


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

Lacey Vessell said:


> So as not to hijack anyone elses topic again (my apologies), I'll post this here: Back in my ignorant days, I thought only police k-9's who were properly trained, along with their handlers, were the only "real" dogs. I thought that "sport dogs" were lacking. Not just one sport or the other - all. As I said, that was back in my ignorant days.


Were you a K9 handler in those days? If so, out of curiosity, where did you think your police dogs came from?


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## Lacey Vessell (Nov 18, 2006)

Good question. In all honestly I guess I never thought about it. All of the police dogs in the county I worked were imports - KNPV which I did not and still don't consider a "sport" - my opinion mind you. I had my ignorant opinions even back then, when a handler at a seminar etc., would brag about SchH/IPO titles that his four legged partner had.

Yes I was a police k-9 handler at that time.


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

i agree with everything you said in your first post. i would be curious to find out why you don't consider KNPV to be a "sport". is it because it has the word "police" in it?


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: The "politics" of various sports is what drives most people (who have the luxury of having other sports nearby) from that particular sport in search of a "better" one. I would love to have a dog that can compete (with high scores) in them all - is it possible? don't know, but I'm sure gonna try and have fun doing it with my dogs.

I don't know about high scores, but there are dogs that have titled in FR MR and BR.

I do know that training aspects of Sch tend to interfere with certain parts of ring if trained in Sch first. The object guard is affected for certain, if the decoy walks up slowly the dog is more than likely to hold and bark. There are more, but I would have to think too hard to come up with them. It is not a smear against Sch, or Ring, just a reality of training differences, and what it is the dog will percieve going on at the time.

I, myself, bash. I am old school like this, but I do not bash just to bash.

I was in Sch long ago, and the watered down version we see today irritates me not so much in the politics of the sport, but what it has done to the breed, and to what people want to see in a dog. Especially new people that tend to spout what they are being taught as if it were truely law, when they do not understand it. This is also one of the demonizing factors for me of internet boards like this and others. People spout off, and others take it verbatim as law. Of course others get pissy and start flaming. ( I always thought that was a gay bash...OOOPs)


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## Lacey Vessell (Nov 18, 2006)

Tim Martens said:


> i agree with everything you said in your first post. i would be curious to find out why you don't consider KNPV to be a "sport". is it because it has the word "police" in it?


Actually no, not because it has police in it. If that was the case, I would not think of USPCA (United States Police Canine Association) certification as sport like. I think of KNPV as more of a prerequisite for a potential police dog - like boot camp for dogs.


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

but you know that a dog does not need his PH1 to be a police dog in holland right? and that the overwhelming majority of KNPV competitors are civilians right? it is no more a prerequisite for police work in holland than SchH is in germany. it is by all definitions, a "sport".

just as there are SchH dogs that cannot do police work, there are plenty of PH1's that cannot do it either (probably a lot lower percentage though).


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## Greg Long (Mar 27, 2006)

Im not agreeing with anything. :x :x :x 

Unless the handler and the dog are put into real life stressful situation or at least as close as you can get,then its not an accurate assessment of how "real" the dog is.

Anything that is pattern trained becomes sportlike.

Only when the dog in placed in an ever changing environment,like policework,will you see the dog's true effectiveness as a working dog.


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## Lacey Vessell (Nov 18, 2006)

Darn, I did not mean for this thread to be about police dog per se. Police dogs are not for the whole - the end all be all of working dogs. No doubt there are more then a few on here that have seen dogs that are working the streets that should not be there. Sadly in more then a few cases it is not because of the dog - the dog was the S$%^ when it first hit the streets - it is because the dog is permitted to go to S%7^ because of a lazy handler or a department that neither demands proficiency training or test their standards - more often then not these are the dogs that ride around in the back of a car for eight to twelve hours rarely getting to see the outside unless called up (might as well be tied to a tree). No matter what any dog is used for,the initial training of that dog is done by repetition - conditioning a dog to respond the way we want them to given a command or situation - for that is how all dogs learn.....even police dogs. 

As for KNPV - I think it is a very good prerequisite for any dog that is going to work the streets. Yeah, I do know that civilians handle and train the dogs. Heh, some of the best trainers and decoys I've worked with are civilians. I also know that there are many civilian agencies here that sell trained dogs to police departments. My choice in selecting a green dog for L.E.- would be one that had been trained in KNPV already. My choice of selecting an agency to train this green dog (if I did not do it myself) would be a person that has worked the streets - has been there, done that and knows what is needed. Which is not to say that if someone brings me this awesome dog that possessed all the drives and traits that I was looking for but it has titled in SchH or FR, BR etc instead of KNPV that I would not snatch him up. For all we know the greatest dog (sport or police) is tied to a tree in someone's back yard. 

Which brings me back to what I originally was trying to get across when first posting this thread: How are we going to know what drives, traits desires a dog possesses if we don't see a dog in action. Not everyone has the opportunity to work their dogs out on the streets as LEO - so we take what we can in the dog sports. What I want in a dog - is not necessarily what you want or need in a dog. I'm not gonna bash you just because your idea's of what a "real" dog is happens to be different from mine, which I see a fair share of in some of these threads. If you don't like a particular sport, don't do it - leave the bashing for those who tie their working breeds to a tree in their backyards.


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

and, just as a caveat, from what i've been told, in this part of the country, after inquiring about doing some training w/PD here:

these ppl do not really train, they mostly attempt to "maintain" the training their dogs have when they purchase them. and maybe that's enough for the PD, and that's ok for them.

i have offered to let them use my property to train--gotten a "less-than" enthusiastic response from them , and see no real reason to chase after them: i'll just train mine. their loss.


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## Andres Martin (May 19, 2006)

I see this in a different light.

Sport dogs and Police dogs can come from the same genetics...and most often do.

Most trainers train in a sport like fashion, whether they're developing a police dog or a sport dog. This is easy and easily transferrable.

The breeds suffer due to sports "points" because points are often political, and by extension economical. People don't know what they're really breeding to.

High level in all dog sports is VERY HIGH. Almost all of those dogs are good, great, or better. Trainers too - but for being one dimensional, and for using some of the pattern training systems.

The fact that dog sports exist is immaterial - IMV - the problem is there are too damn many sport dogs.

...working dog "lite"...by handler "lite" and smiley.

BTW, Lacey...not much beating around the bush for you... :lol: The puppy title under your name is camouflage...


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

Lacey Vessell said:


> As for KNPV - I think it is a very good prerequisite for any dog that is going to work the streets.


perhaps just a grammatical thing, but when you use words such as "prerequisite" which means REQUIRED beforehand. saying a KNPV title is required for a police dog severly limits your choices. 

then you go on to say: 



Lacey Vessell said:


> Which is not to say that if someone brings me this awesome dog that possessed all the drives and traits that I was looking for but it has titled in SchH or FR, BR etc instead of KNPV that I would not snatch him up.


thereby nullifying the "prerequisite". i know this is just a semantics argument and we're both on the same page here. dog first. their sport second. all things being equal, i too would opt for a KNPV titled dog over a "green" dog, a ScHH dog, a FR dog, etc. which of course is not to say i'd overlook any flaws because of the title.

as far as "bashing", i'll go back to what i said in the other topic. i would never bash a dog sport on the merits of the sport itself. i'm all for people doing stuff with their dogs. it's the people who try to claim their chosen sport is the be all, end all of dog activities or point out that simply because of the title, a dog is guaranteed to possess "X" trait(s) (in that specific instance "X" was defense).

and i agree with everything andres said in his last post. greg too (i'm now ready to jump off a cliff :lol: )...


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: I'm not gonna bash you just because your idea's of what a "real" dog is happens to be different from mine, which I see a fair share of in some of these threads.

A "real" dog is a term that by and large is misused, and rather silly. It is not like the dog at my feet is scooby doo and therefore a cartoon.

Strong dogs show themselves no matter what sport you do. One thing that a lot of people don't think about very often, is that we "sport" people look to condition a specific response, then go about doing so. This conditioning does lend itself to create a dog that bites what we tell it to bite, and to not do what comes naturally.

My only problem is with people's tendancy to breed to high scoring dogs, or "winners" these dogs are typically average, to slightly above average, and should not be bred.


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> My only problem is with people's tendancy to breed to high scoring dogs, or "winners" these dogs are typically average, to slightly above average, and should not be bred.


while in it's purest form, this may be true, too often people take the route of "my dog is too civil" or "my dog is too real" to score high, when in fact a little more training or a better, more focused training regimen would lead to high scores (as lacey originally said)...


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I have seen the "too real/civil" dogs. Many are nervy. Some in a good way, forward. Others not so good. I have seen dogs that are just too much and cannot be trained for the sport, but I have not seen any in a loooooooong time. Even then, only three.


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## Liz Monty (Oct 22, 2006)

Me too, I have seen one in Ringsport, to civil and they had a lot of trouble with him. But not in a bad nerve way, but a too civil forward way.
I had one dog who showed her civil side immediately on her first agitation work. So I never tried sport with her.
Another dog I had was too civil after his confidence came back from previous bad training and he was the weak nerved civil, I suspect he would be forward and then back off if pushed back by the attacker or threat. He had no prey, just civil. Hope I have the terminology right.


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I have seen the "too real/civil" dogs. Many are nervy. Some in a good way, forward. Others not so good. I have seen dogs that are just too much and cannot be trained for the sport, but I have not seen any in a loooooooong time. Even then, only three.


and that proves my point. in all your years you have only seen three such dogs, thus lending credence to my assessment of those phrases being way too over used...


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Tim, I was going along with you.


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Tim, I was going along with you.


holy crap. in one day i am in agreement with greg long, andres martin and jeff oehlsen. tomorrow will surely be the end of the world as we know it....


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Soon, Oh so soon, you will be a dog trainer. :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:


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## Lacey Vessell (Nov 18, 2006)

Tim Martens said:


> Jeff Oehlsen said:
> 
> 
> > I have seen the "too real/civil" dogs. Many are nervy. Some in a good way, forward. Others not so good. I have seen dogs that are just too much and cannot be trained for the sport, but I have not seen any in a loooooooong time. Even then, only three.
> ...


A few dogs are what they are because of genetics - more dogs are what they appear to be because of environment. 

Think about how many dogs that you've seen/read out on a training field/competition field and thought to yourself - the handler/training is the problem with that dog - if only.....

The bitch I am training with now had been labeled by more then a few as to "sharp" (not sharp shy) , to "civil" to use for competition, even at her young age. (I know, ask five different people what their definition of sharp or civil is and you'll probably get five different definitions). I dislike lables, but I do like a challenge. The biggest challenge to me as a handler and trainer is finding the correct method to communicate with a specific dog so that we can work as a team.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: The bitch I am training with now had been labeled by more then a few as to "sharp" (not sharp shy) , to "civil" to use for competition, even at her young age.

Can you explain this further?

I think my best definition of sharp is a dog that reacts with aggression to a startle response type situation.

Many times people try to cookie cutter train dogs. If they are used to dealing with GSD's, then there might be too much stimulation for her.

We have the same problem in reverse in my club. If it doesn't act like a Mal.......... :roll: :roll:


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

In reaction on the "too real/too civil" dogs, who said to be impossible to train. 
They do not exist. 
Every dog is trainable. 
For example, we especialy try to breed the kind of dog meant bij this. THOSE are the policedog we mean to create when we are talking about policedogs on our site.
Not always the dogs to make maximum points at a contest because of their strong caracter, but dogs who will do their thing everywhere and in every circomstance .
I am aware that to train those dogs you need another kind of trainingmethods and i am not sure those methods are known of/acceptable abroad.

greetz.
Dick van Leeuwen 

(sorry if my grammar is not perfect)


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> In reaction on the "too real/too civil" dogs, who said to be impossible to train.
> They do not exist.
> Every dog is trainable.
> For example, we especialy try to breed the kind of dog meant bij this. THOSE are the policedog we mean to create when we are talking about policedogs on our site.
> ...


i think we all agree. i don't think it's impossible to train those dogs. like you said, just maybe not a top point getter. which is fine by me. i'd trade points for character any day of the week...


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## Lacey Vessell (Nov 18, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: The bitch I am training with now had been labeled by more then a few as to "sharp" (not sharp shy) , to "civil" to use for competition, even at her young age.
> 
> Can you explain this further?
> 
> ...


Before I respond to the question, just remember that I did not label her as sharp or civil - others have. If I had to describe her I consider her hard and not one that will allow *just* anyone to take the leash and work her. She is tolerant of others, not one who seeks out being petted or having attention, although she does not hesitate, when on or off lead, to check out a stranger and will stand right next to them. She is a bit more comfortable with an edge of defense then straight prey when working with a helper/decoy - although now I can actually see the transition between both when she is working. She acts as if she owns the place, even when brought to an environment she is not familiar with. She will chase and hunt down anything thrown over walls, through thorns - no matter - I think she would do this until she dropped dead if I did not stop her. She has seen the "bright light" more then a few times starting at five months old because she actually launched full out attacks on me after being mildly corrected - scruff of neck. 

Some of the reasons why she has been labeled as stated in the original post by others is because the following were witnessed by them She is very crate aggressive when I am not physically there, when brought from the vehicle on lead she can be walked around people but she will not tolerate anyone bending down over her to pet her from the front (she does not like anyone to approach from behind and pet her), she will fire off if someone stares her down, when on the pole she will lunge for the first few times at the decoy who is outside the circle but she will then move in a few inches baiting the decoy inside her circle engaging as soon as she knows they are within her reach. (Most called this avoidance). She is not one to carry the sleeve for very long and will lay it down and fire back up on the helper, but if the helper attempts to take the sleeve she will just as soon bite him rather then the sleeve again. They have seen the scares she has left on me from earlier days. 

Most of these people who have labeled her have no experience at all with Mal's - as she is the only Mal at the club. 

I agree with your definition of sharp Jeff ::choke:: darn, now I'm agreeing with Jeff - I don't see her as sharp - she does not respond in aggression at the drop of a hat.


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## Erik Berg (Apr 11, 2006)

Dick,

when you say those dogs needs another trainingmethods that are not accepted/known about in every country, why do you mean by that, send me a PM if you like, if´t not suited for the public forum :wink: 

I also think this is alot of BS, my dog is to much or real to do sport, of course it takes a more skilled trainer to train such a dog, but a to much of a dog for someone could be a "lamb" for another.
But a few dogs who goes into full aggresion because of just a quick glance or which are just very suspicious of people would probably not be the best dog for competition, but also not for breeding to I guess. [/quote]


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## Woody Taylor (Mar 28, 2006)

So...what kind of temperament does a police dog have to have? Some of the characteristics you all are describing strike me as a liability (to the public). If a ten-year-old kid runs up and hugs your dog, and gets bit, is that a problem? I'm being quite serious, I just figured you all would be hung out to dry by John Q. Public if you had a dog that would not tolerate accidental intrusion by people very well.

I know the short answer is probably that you have control over your dogs, etc. but I'm reminded of that dog parade that Tim participated in. If you were looking one way, and a kid ran up to your dog in that kind of environment, what would/should have happened?


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

Woody Taylor said:


> So...what kind of temperament does a police dog have to have? Some of the characteristics you all are describing strike me as a liability (to the public). If a ten-year-old kid runs up and hugs your dog, and gets bit, is that a problem? I'm being quite serious, I just figured you all would be hung out to dry by John Q. Public if you had a dog that would not tolerate accidental intrusion by people very well.
> 
> I know the short answer is probably that you have control over your dogs, etc. but I'm reminded of that dog parade that Tim participated in. If you were looking one way, and a kid ran up to your dog in that kind of environment, what would/should have happened?


probably nothing woody, but maybe something. my dog is pretty social when he's not "in drive". i don't consider my dog be in the "extreme" catagory. i think he's sharp, but not super sharp. he did bite a little girl when i first started working him on the street. it was not out of aggression. basically i had just done doing a track of a suspect who had tried to steal her dad's el camino. after the track, her 10 year old brother asked if they could pet my dog (the girl was about 7). the boy petted my dog no problem. it was a cold night and the girl was wearing her father's jacket. of course the sleeves were way to long for her and when she went to pet the dog, she did it from the top. the end of the sleeve dangled in front of the dogs mouth and he bit it (i'm sure thinking it was a tug). he started to work his way up the sleeve when i pulled him back. she was not injured and fortunately her father was very cop-friendly and was actually mad at his daughter for not petting the dog the right way (they own dogs).

in the community i work, one of these "extreme" low threshold, super sharp dogs would not work. we do a lot of demos, pet the dog days at school, etc. if the dog could not participate in these, it wouldn't be able to do a lot of what is expected by our admin and our community. in a crime ridden, gangster town where handlers are getting 30-50 deployments a month, i would imagine having a social dog is much lower on the priority list.

to directly answer the question woody....if i had one of those types of dogs, yes there is a good possibility that that little kid that ran upto the dog would get bit. that's why there is a human on the end of the leash. handlers of those dogs have a much greater responsibility to be aware of their environments when they are with their dog. so, yes, there is a risk, but that goes with the territory...


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

No different, IMO, then the firearm a LEO carrys. It's all about being responsible. 
When I was involved in SAR we had a couple of fantastic cadaver and evidence detection dogs that would never be used for finding a lost person. 
Same with demos. You wouldn't want 200 Boy Scouts smothering these dogs.


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## Andres Martin (May 19, 2006)

> I am aware that to train those dogs you need another kind of trainingmethods and i am not sure those methods are known of/acceptable abroad.


Different training that includes different decoy work.


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## Greg Long (Mar 27, 2006)

Tim Martens said:


> Woody Taylor said:
> 
> 
> > So...what kind of temperament does a police dog have to have? Some of the characteristics you all are describing strike me as a liability (to the public). If a ten-year-old kid runs up and hugs your dog, and gets bit, is that a problem? I'm being quite serious, I just figured you all would be hung out to dry by John Q. Public if you had a dog that would not tolerate accidental intrusion by people very well.
> ...


 Tim, do you do any stabilization training with your dog?If so what do you do?


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

Greg Long said:


> Tim, do you do any stabilization training with your dog?If so what do you do?


i think i know what you're getting at, but explain what you mean...


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## Greg Long (Mar 27, 2006)

I mean work your dog around strangers and other dogs.Doing bitework with situations thrown in the middle where the dog shouldnt bite.Doing a track where the handler is attacked in the middle of the track and then must find a friendly target at the end of the track(no bite).
Do a bite scenario where the handler is attacked and then the decoy approaches right after a bite in a nonthreatening manner and shakes the handlers hand.
The possibilities are endless.I was just wondering if you do anything similar at your dept.Just curious.


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## Woody Taylor (Mar 28, 2006)

Tim Martens said:


> to directly answer the question woody....if i had one of those types of dogs, yes there is a good possibility that that little kid that ran upto the dog would get bit. that's why there is a human on the end of the leash. handlers of those dogs have a much greater responsibility to be aware of their environments when they are with their dog. so, yes, there is a risk, but that goes with the territory...


Thanks, I was just wondering about that. I can't remember if I heard about it when they were doing search and recovery after the OKC bombing (I lived there at the time) or if I read it some magazine later, but I remember an anecdote about a guy's PD...it was doing taking a break from a search...and a little girl ran up to it and hugged it. I remember the officer/handler acknowledging that he was a bit antsy about the dog's reaction, which obviously could have been tragic with all the crap going around. Just curious about various dog personalities and their aptitude for different kinds of deployments. I got the impression from Selena that Dutch police don't bring out the dogs unless something very bad is happening, but I know, to your point, that PDs in the US are often used as liasons to the public. Good response, again thanks.


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Woody Taylor said:


> I got the impression from Selena that Dutch police don't bring out the dogs unless something very bad is happening, but I know, to your point, that PDs in the US are often used as liasons to the public. Good response, again thanks.


Not in this region anyway :wink: nevertheless in the whole netherlands a lot less than in Tim´s case, i guess. No parade with a PD here...thank god!


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## Woody Taylor (Mar 28, 2006)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> No parade with a PD here...thank god!


Heh. I wasn't teasing Tim or anything, I think it's nice that dogs can play that role as a community liason in some instances. Things that get police closer to the community the protect are good things, IMO. And dogs foster a lot more warm feelings that a buy-back-your-gun program, etc. :wink:


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Looking at a dog that backs up to sucker you in closer as avoidance, I would seriously consider a new club.   

Dogs that cannot be trained.......I have thought about this, and sure they could do OB and such, but found the sleeve to interfere with their destruction of the bad guy.

Maybe I could of done a better job with them, but I guess my definition of can't be trained is more like can't finish to title.The dogs tracked fine, and OB was OK. I am not sure that I could finish the dog today, but it is possible with all that I have learned I could be a lot closer.

Lacey, It sure does sound like a bad combination of over stimulation and a dominant dog.

Dick, please go ahead and throw out training advice........to hell with what sensitive people have to say. This is a dog training board.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

<<<If a ten-year-old kid runs up and hugs your dog, and gets bit, is that a problem?>>>>

Yes, in most of the US today that would be a considerable problem and in my experience will result in a law suit 90% of the time. Your analogy of a firearm was a good one. I use it with my handlers; An accidental dog bite should occur no more frequently than an accidental weapons discharge. In theory, every dog used by a law enforcement agency should be able to be in the eye of J.Q. Public, without being a snarling beast, without the accidental bite happening as described. In reality, it isn't so and departments know which of their dogs can be in "parades" and which ones can't. As for decoys, you bet there is a difference. Equipment fixation can not exist, it must be tested. Like any training, in the beginning, the dog wins. In advanced training, the dog learns that he may have to fight to win. On the street he will be kicked, slapped, punched, charged, stabbed and shot. With the exception of stabbed and shot, the dog should have experience all that in training. 

DFrost


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## Liz Monty (Oct 22, 2006)

Calgary, Alberta back in the 80's had a heavy reputation for being very aggressive cops. Their dogs too. One P. dog on a track for a suspect was going around my back yard and I was approaching from the other side. We met long before the handler was in view of his dog. The dog did not act aggressively in any manner at all. I also did not provoke in any manner, but continued on past the dog and said a very friendly "HEY Puppy, good dog".
I knew it was a police dog by it's tracking line. I love some police dogs.


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

Liz Monty said:


> Calgary, Alberta back in the 80's had a heavy reputation for being very aggressive cops. Their dogs too. One P. dog on a track for a suspect was going around my back yard and I was approaching from the other side. We met long before the handler was in view of his dog. The dog did not act aggressively in any manner at all. I also did not provoke in any manner, but continued on past the dog and said a very friendly "HEY Puppy, good dog".
> I knew it was a police dog by it's tracking line. I love some police dogs.


wow. i'm not sure if you are telling the truth and just don't have any idea what you're talking about or if you are just making stuff up. why would you say anything to the dog at all? mind your own business and let him work. why take the chance of distracting him?


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## Liz Monty (Oct 22, 2006)

Would this dog be described as Civil?
Can't approach within feet of the vehicle without the dog biting the windows to get you. Using a thick short chain to tie the dog inside the vehicle so it cannot reach anyone if they did get too close. Not allowing the owner of the vehicle to get inside when the dog had an object it planned on keeping. Using the handler as a decoy while walking onto a sch. training field. Having to use a prong at all times to keep the dog from turning on handler. Never allowing any child, dog or adult to come close enough or it would bite. Requiring putting chains around crate to keep dog inside crate incase someone came over. Covering over three common sized farmers fields to attack a man on a bicycle for no reason. Using two additional men in bite suits to get the dog off the original decoy on field.


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## Greg Long (Mar 27, 2006)

Tim Martens said:


> Liz Monty said:
> 
> 
> > Calgary, Alberta back in the 80's had a heavy reputation for being very aggressive cops. Their dogs too. One P. dog on a track for a suspect was going around my back yard and I was approaching from the other side. We met long before the handler was in view of his dog. The dog did not act aggressively in any manner at all. I also did not provoke in any manner, but continued on past the dog and said a very friendly "HEY Puppy, good dog".
> ...



I agree! Not a good idea.Just ignore the dog.


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## Liz Monty (Oct 22, 2006)

Holy cow Tim, talk about insult implying that I would make that up. And to ignore the dog and not distract it, yeah easy for the cop to say, they are woring seriously and not needing their dog distracted by some person. 
I don't care about he cop at that moment though, I care about my own safety. Fine walk past it and keep going, sure, it acted calm, but 
who's to say it wouldn't change it mind quickly, there was a cop still around the blind side of the house. I've been around animals of all sorts my whole life and I sure as hell know that a friendly greeting tone with no approach to the dog is a good insurance to not becoming an accidental target. I didn't say I walked towards the dog, I said I walked right past the dog. I am finding this whole attitude of what is right to say and who gets to say it quite discouraging for a forum.
Police dog, horse, dog sleeping, most people know that you always give the animal a quiet friendly short greeting to not startle it. That is how I grew up and that is how I will continue. No cop in sight, I'm on my own, I handle it the way I deem best at the time, you don't like it, that is your opinion.


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## Woody Taylor (Mar 28, 2006)

ENOUGH.


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

Liz Monty said:


> Would this dog be described as Civil?
> Can't approach within feet of the vehicle without the dog biting the windows to get you. Using a thick short chain to tie the dog inside the vehicle so it cannot reach anyone if they did get too close. Not allowing the owner of the vehicle to get inside when the dog had an object it planned on keeping. Using the handler as a decoy while walking onto a sch. training field. Having to use a prong at all times to keep the dog from turning on handler. Never allowing any child, dog or adult to come close enough or it would bite. Requiring putting chains around crate to keep dog inside crate incase someone came over. Covering over three common sized farmers fields to attack a man on a bicycle for no reason. Using two additional men in bite suits to get the dog off the original decoy on field.


That dog would be described as alot of things. Going back thru this thread, kinda curious what this question is about? Is this a dog you know? Or are you being sarcastic? :?: :?: :?: It sounds like you're trying to prove a point but I don't quite know what point you're trying to prove so I don't know how to answer this question.

I'm sorry it seems you are getting picked on a little, perhaps it's your way of phrasing things, posing a question in such a way to get the answer you want someone to give in order to set up your next post... it's a little confusing, perhaps if you stop beating around the bush and say what you are getting it I might be able to answer better. Thanks.


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## Liz Monty (Oct 22, 2006)

Mike, in the posts just relatively above mine, people started discussing how the term civil is used too frequently at times. Also some said that a dog who is civil can sometimes be trained to perform better in the sport but may not take the points as well.
In one post during this discussion I mentioned that I have seen only two or three dogs that I called civil. But then some more posts came in and I began to wonder if I was actually seeing a civil dog or not fully understanding what the true meaning of civil was. So I posted this current post about a specific dog I knew and described most of her behaviours to see if this is what people in general called civil?
This is something I genuinely wanted to know for my own knowledge.


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## Liz Monty (Oct 22, 2006)

also Mike, the post about the police dog in Calgary, I thought was nice, I was trying to say that I like a police dog who is level headed and does not react too sharply. I was giving a compliment to a type of dog.


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

Liz Monty said:


> Holy cow Tim, talk about insult implying that I would make that up. And to ignore the dog and not distract it, yeah easy for the cop to say, they are woring seriously and not needing their dog distracted by some person.
> I don't care about he cop at that moment though, I care about my own safety. Fine walk past it and keep going, sure, it acted calm, but
> who's to say it wouldn't change it mind quickly, there was a cop still around the blind side of the house. I've been around animals of all sorts my whole life and I sure as hell know that a friendly greeting tone with no approach to the dog is a good insurance to not becoming an accidental target. I didn't say I walked towards the dog, I said I walked right past the dog. I am finding this whole attitude of what is right to say and who gets to say it quite discouraging for a forum.
> Police dog, horse, dog sleeping, most people know that you always give the animal a quiet friendly short greeting to not startle it. That is how I grew up and that is how I will continue. No cop in sight, I'm on my own, I handle it the way I deem best at the time, you don't like it, that is your opinion.


 :roll: . yeah, you know that dog better than the handler. don't be surprised or angered someday when the suspect who just robbed your loved one got away because some civilian distracted the dog tracking him because they thought they knew what was best for the dog....

"The dog did not act aggressively in any manner at all." then let him be...

i don't know what dogs you've been around in your life or what your experience is, but a dog who you recognize as a working dog who is currently performing his job is best left alone. not only is it not a good idea to interject your ideas of what you think you know, it borders on criminal behavior (interfering with a police dog) and if i were the handler on the other end of the leash, at the very least, when it was over, i'd pay a visit to you and dispell your misconceptions about working dogs...


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

Too many defintions wow. Civil is the willingness to bite a man without equipment. The rest of the stuff you listed about that dog sounds to me like crappy handling crappy training and most likely a crappy dog.

Edited to say: Either that or a very hard dog with, as said before, crappy training and crappy handler. The fact that they would use a prong collar on a handler aggressive dog to avoid the aggression in itself makes no sense to me, prong collars just fire the dog up more n you end up fighting the dog even worse.


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

Mike Schoonbrood said:


> Too many defintions wow. Civil is the willingness to bite a man without equipment. The rest of the stuff you listed about that dog sounds to me like crappy handling crappy training and most likely a crappy dog.
> 
> Edited to say: Either that or a very hard dog with, as said before, crappy training and crappy handler. The fact that they would use a prong collar on a handler aggressive dog to avoid the aggression in itself makes no sense to me, prong collars just fire the dog up more n you end up fighting the dog even worse.


exactly. i just worked a dog last week who is an absolute monster in the crate. barking, lunging, biting at the screen, etc. this dog is CRAP outside of that crate. crate/car behavior is not a good indicator of how a dog will perform outside of it.

the rest of it...too many variables to comment on. how old is the dog? what is it's current level of training? what are the training goals of the handler? how is it environmentally? etc...


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

Greg Long said:


> I mean work your dog around strangers and other dogs.Doing bitework with situations thrown in the middle where the dog shouldnt bite.Doing a track where the handler is attacked in the middle of the track and then must find a friendly target at the end of the track(no bite).
> Do a bite scenario where the handler is attacked and then the decoy approaches right after a bite in a nonthreatening manner and shakes the handlers hand.
> The possibilities are endless.I was just wondering if you do anything similar at your dept.Just curious.


yes, we work similar scenarios. we don't call it "stabilization". we call it control work. to me stability is genetic. a dog is either stable or he isn't. sure you can work to improve on what the dog has genetically, but you're not going to make an unstable dog stable through training.

so again, this goes back to "the dog should bite who i tell him to when i tell him to and shouldn't bite anyone else" principle applies here. we call it control work which is, i guess, an extension of obedience...

i can't say we work our dogs around other dogs. i am not a proponent of that. my dog is not dog aggressive, but i have no guarantee that the loose dog he meets on a search also isn't. if i know a certain backyard has a dog in it, i'm not using my dog to search it. so why train it?


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## Liz Monty (Oct 22, 2006)

Oh Tim, your twisting my words. I never said I knew what was best for the dog.
I said that I did what I thought was best for ME. Look at it my way. I'm in the dark, a dog comes around the corner as I do. He is a police dog on a tracking line. Most animal people will tell you that if you startle and animal it may react. The dog did not seem to worry about me, and I liked that. But I was cautious non the less and spoke for one second to the dog as I continued to pass by. In my mind that could ensure that the dog was not going to startle on me before I got passed him. If you were the cop around the farther side of the house and could not see what your dog was encountering, you could have had a law suit on your hands if that dog did bit me by mistake. What would you really prefer. An innocent woman bitten or your dog only spoken to for a brief moment in passing. I mean, really a situation like this is not common. I would agree that a working dog should not be bothered by anyone, but usually the civilian gets to see the dog under control of the handler in these cases. This dog was NOT under control, he was out of sight.
And if it was my house being robbed and some woman or child came upon the tracking dog and got bitten by it I would be devastated. If to avoid being bitten meant the woman or child did as little as possible to keep things light hearted with the dog it would not bother me. On the other hand if the dog ran over and started to play and wag it's tail with me, then I would have considered that a Huge disruption on my part and would have felt bad. But I had total faith that this dog would not stop his work because of what I did.


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

Liz Monty said:


> Oh Tim, your twisting my words. I never said I knew what was best for the dog.
> I said that I did what I thought was best for ME. Look at it my way. I'm in the dark, a dog comes around the corner as I do. He is a police dog on a tracking line. Most animal people will tell you that if you startle and animal it may react. The dog did not seem to worry about me, and I liked that. But I was cautious non the less and spoke for one second to the dog as I continued to pass by. In my mind that could ensure that the dog was not going to startle on me before I got passed him. If you were the cop around the farther side of the house and could not see what your dog was encountering, you could have had a law suit on your hands if that dog did bit me by mistake. What would you really prefer. An innocent woman bitten or your dog only spoken to for a brief moment in passing. I mean, really a situation like this is not common. I would agree that a working dog should not be bothered by anyone, but usually the civilian gets to see the dog under control of the handler in these cases. This dog was NOT under control, he was out of sight.
> And if it was my house being robbed and some woman or child came upon the tracking dog and got bitten by it I would be devastated. If to avoid being bitten meant the woman or child did as little as possible to keep things light hearted with the dog it would not bother me. On the other hand if the dog ran over and started to play and wag it's tail with me, then I would have considered that a Huge disruption on my part and would have felt bad. But I had total faith that this dog would not stop his work because of what I did.


nevermind. you know what's best. you always do...


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## Liz Monty (Oct 22, 2006)

I didn't know about the best nutrition for the pup
I dind't know about the best way to handle the neighbors
I didn't know about the correct meaning of civil 
I didn't know about many, many other things, in which I thanked you guys on previous occasions for correcting me or teaching me.

Maybe i'm just dilerious and imagined those other posts.


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

You all understand that after reading all previous posts I am not going to post anything about some training-methods for a "difficult" hard dominant dog with a possible drive to resist with agression any correction. :roll: 

Also, is there a difference in when or what to call a dog difficult, hard, touhg, or a "real" dog here in Holland and abroad.
For example. In the beginning when the first policedogs where exported to the US (and Israël ect.), the dogdealers over here got questions to send over "real, tough policedogs". They did, thinking they meant the same kind of dog we mean over here by calling them hard, tough, dominant ect.
THAT was a big mistake.....  
Dogs send over with that clasification where all, or send back, or distroyed. :evil: 
Too much, too difficult, not trainable dominant crazy dogs............

Since then, when they got questions for a dog like that, they know, what is meant by that. 8) 
So there is a babylonic difference in speach when we call some caracter items in discribing a dog.

I do not want to insult anyone by this, but there is a big difference in "dogculture" I notice. (and noticed already a long time a go).

That is no problem if you are aware of its existence. :wink: 

greetz,
Dick


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## Lacey Vessell (Nov 18, 2006)

>>I also did not provoke in any manner, but continued on past the dog and said a very friendly "HEY Puppy, good dog". 
I knew it was a police dog by it's tracking line. I love some police dogs.<<

I personally would not have a problem with what Liz did if it was my police k-9 partner tracking or even my Schutzhund dog. My dogs training consist of ignoring distractions that are not a threat to them or me. Unless it is me doing the talking - they should and better not care about it. I would not consider this harassing my dog. It is hard enough to teach (more like have them grasp and remember) fellow officers what they should and should not do when we send or work our dogs.


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## Al Curbow (Mar 27, 2006)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> You all understand that after reading all previous posts I am not going to post anything about some training-methods for a "difficult" hard dominant dog with a possible drive to resist with agression any correction. :roll:
> 
> Also, is there a difference in when or what to call a dog difficult, hard, touhg, or a "real" dog here in Holland and abroad.
> For example. In the beginning when the first policedogs where exported to the US (and Israël ect.), the dogdealers over here got questions to send over "real, tough policedogs". They did, thinking they meant the same kind of dog we mean over here by calling them hard, tough, dominant ect.
> ...



Hi Dick, i wasn't insulted by this post but saw it as a generalizing text. We are a nation of 300 million people and if you believe that there's not many, many trainers that can handle any dog you've got, your wrong. Holland is a tiny place compared to America, so to generalize when a relatively small amount of dogs have been sold here from there shows a lack of understanding of the size and population of our country.,

AL


Because your country (mostly filled with immigrants if you won´t forget...... :wink: ) is bigger, does not mean youre country is better also in everything. 
THAT´s the attitude most people hate here in europe.and a stereotype of the image they have from Americans. *Misplaced superieur attitude*.
I can list you a pack of things you can learn a lot about and the US is not better in :x .
Don´nt make the mistake to patronice our country because the size in square miles is smaller. Maybe our mind is bigger..... 8) 
This is meant like i wrote it. NOT trying to be polite....... :twisted: 
With european/dutch bluntness i suppose........

greetz
Dick


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

Al,

i have heard many stories of what dick is talking about and know of one personally. what he was talking about from a culture standpoint is very true. 

you have a police canine unit supervisor who tells the importer he wants a super tough, hard dog. so the importer gets him the dog. the dog then goes to the new handler who has never been a PSD handler and maybe has never even owned a dog in his life. the importer tells the supervisor not to correct the dog for at least a few days. just hang out with the dog. NO WORK. so he gives the dog to the new handler who brings it to training the next day "to see what he can do". he sends the dog on a decoy. they can't out the dog. they start yanking and correcting and choking and when he comes off the bite, he turns on the handler. eats him up pretty good. dog returned to importer. that is a good story. i've heard similar ones where it ends with the dog being shot. that is why the dutch feel the way they do about us americans.

al, you're right. they're small and we're big. it only takes a couple of stories like that to spread over there and it becomes their perception of our entire country. can't say i blame them really....


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## Al Curbow (Mar 27, 2006)

I wasn't patronizing your country. Holland has a rich history and welcomed us with open arms in the 40's. My point was that if you look at the number of trainers here in the great USA, and think that they all fit into one catagory, it still shows a lack of understanding. And believe me i'm not intending any insults, far from it, just a point of view. As far as the way we're percieved in europe, well.........., we're only important when we're not needed,

AL


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## Andres Martin (May 19, 2006)

> We are a nation of 300 million people and if you believe that there's not many, many trainers that can handle any dog you've got, your wrong. Holland is a tiny place compared to America, so to generalize when a relatively small amount of dogs have been sold here from there shows a lack of understanding of the size and population of our country.,


Al...out of the 300 million people, there are maybe 15,000 protection trainers. That's about 0.000005%. Out of those, maybe...maybe...100 know what to do with an extremely aggressive, fearless, hyperactive, strong, fit, VERY fast, dominant, territorial, possessive dog. This brings the figure down to 0.0000003% of the population.



> so to generalize when a relatively small amount of dogs have been sold here from there shows a lack of understanding of the size and population of our country.,


When you write, "Relatively", what do you mean? There are hundreds of dutch dogs working in the US. Do you have an idea of the % of dutch dogs vs. the total PSD population? If you don't, you're simply speculating.

As a point of fact, also in Holland, Belgium, France and Germany...there aren't many trainers that know what to do with a powerful dog...but as a PERCENTAGE the panorama changes dramatically. I don't know the number, but it's not a speculation. It is an EDUCATED GUESS.

I write this reply simply to contribute the following criterion: There is an Ocean of difference in the knowledge, skills and abilities...as well as the stock (people and dogs) between Holland and the US in K9 matters. Holland being far, far better. The toughest dogs come from Holland; females too... :lol: :lol: :lol: 

Al, a quick question: What would you do with a dog that you just bought, that tries to bite you when you look at him for more than a few seconds?


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

Andres Martin said:


> > so to generalize when a relatively small amount of dogs have been sold here from there shows a lack of understanding of the size and population of our country.,
> 
> 
> When you write, "Relatively", what do you mean? There are hundreds of dutch dogs working in the US. Do you have an idea of the % of dutch dogs vs. the total PSD population? If you don't, you're simply speculating.[/qoute]
> ...


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## Greg Long (Mar 27, 2006)

Dont look at him. :lol:


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Andres Martin said:


> [ The toughest dogs come from Holland; *females too*... :lol: :lol: :lol:


 :evil: MINE!!!!! :wink: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: 




Tim Martens said:


> when i visit next september, i'm hoping to goto some clubs and also visit one of the K-9 centers (voorhuitzen?). i would also LOVE to goto a police K-9 training session while over there (dick?)....
> 
> is it september yet?


You´re welcome Tim. On a training session with my police K9 unit aswell at our KNPV-club. Is also easier to talk and show what we are talking about. :wink:

greetz
Dick


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

Send me a puppy from your next litter, a good one. I will sign a contract that I will ship the dog back at my expense if at any time he becomes too much to handle and will not be sold to anyone else. All this talk about how unmanagable your dogs are makes me want to train one even more  I'll like the challenge.


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

Mike Schoonbrood said:


> Send me a puppy from your next litter, a good one. I will sign a contract that I will ship the dog back at my expense if at any time he becomes too much to handle and will not be sold to anyone else. All this talk about how unmanagable your dogs are makes me want to train one even more  I'll like the challenge.


like i've said before....GET IN LINE!!! besides, she doesn't ship dogs. you've got to go get them! :lol:


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Mike Schoonbrood said:


> Send me a puppy from your next litter, a good one. I will sign a contract that I will ship the dog back at my expense if at any time he becomes too much to handle and will not be sold to anyone else. All this talk about how unmanagable your dogs are makes me want to train one even more  I'll like the challenge.


Its not that they are not trainable, Mike :wink: I´m training and have trained several (and competed in Den Bosch at the Dutch KNPV-championship).
But its important to understand the type of dog. They need an aproach fitting their caracter. With this dominant , tough kind of dog you see often that they are distroyed in caracter because people can´t cope with their attitude as a pup and do not give them a chanche to develop.

greetz.
Dick

IF we sell abroad, we ask peope to come and get them. We don´t send over..... It is good you (the buyer) see the pup over here, before he had the experience of being crated and being harrased by the ground crew at airports.... 

greetz
Dick

Selena tells me its better I open my own acount if I want to react this often, but i´m not sure i will :wink: :lol:


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## Woody Taylor (Mar 28, 2006)

> Selena tells me its better I open my own acount if I want to react this often, but i´m not sure i will :wink: :lol:


Heh, people are wondering why Selena is calling herself "Dick" and making fun of American trainers. :lol:


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## Al Curbow (Mar 27, 2006)

LOL, Andres, use the same math with the population of Holland or your country and that'll mean there's only 1 or 2 people in your entire country that can train a dog, that's hilarious


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## Woody Taylor (Mar 28, 2006)

Al Curbow said:


> LOL, Andres, use the same math with the population of Holland or your country and that'll mean there's only 1 or 2 people in your entire country that can train a dog, that's hilarious


Actually, my guess is that of the 250 or so members here there is a common belief that there are only 250 people who really know dogs, in aggregate. Now if by "really know dogs" you mean "more people other than me believe I know dogs" that number goes down to .000000000153% of the world's population.


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## Andres Martin (May 19, 2006)

Al:


> 1 or 2 people in your entire country that can train a dog, that's hilarious


In my country...yes. One. Regrettably...it ain't me. :lol: 

In Holland, the percentages are different. You simply did not know what you were talking about. Now you do. If you're humble, you'll progress faster than if you're not.

By the way, do you have any new working pics of your dog?


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## Andres Martin (May 19, 2006)

> Actually, my guess is that of the 250 or so members here there is a common belief that there are only 250 people who really know dogs, in aggregate. Now if by "really know dogs" you mean "more people other than me believe I know dogs" that number goes down to .000000000153% of the world's population.


 aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahahahahaha! After this morning, it feels like I should be drinking beer.


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## Doug Wendling (Apr 1, 2006)

Tim
Are you going to the Championship next Sept?

Doug


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## Doug Wendling (Apr 1, 2006)

Andres
This is a question from an old thread and a picture you posted. When were you over with Jan (Gardéfense) last? PM me if you prefer? Sorry guys for asking a question that does not pertain to the thread at hand.

Doug


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## Al Curbow (Mar 27, 2006)

So Woody, if a person knows one person who knows dogs, that person knows an elite person, right? :lol: :lol: :lol: 

Andres, please don't ever stop posting, you crack me up,


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: Because your country (mostly filled with immigrants if you won´t forget...... ) is bigger, does not mean youre country is better also in everything. 
THAT´s the attitude most people hate here in europe.and a stereotype of the image they have from Americans. Misplaced superieur attitude. 
I can list you a pack of things you can learn a lot about and the US is not better in . 
Don´nt make the mistake to patronice our country because the size in square miles is smaller. Maybe our mind is bigger..... 
This is meant like i wrote it. NOT trying to be polite....... 
With european/dutch bluntness i suppose........ 

This is awesome!!!

I have been told how bad we suck by at least someone from every dogsport. :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: 

I remember being told how bad we sucked in Sch, FR, BR, and now KNPV.

The US is my home, and we are losing freedoms everyday thanks to our idiot politicians, and MOSTLY because we do not pay attention to the idiot laws they pass in "our welfare".

However, MISPLACED superior attitude????? You would be speaking German if it were not for our SUPERIOR ATTITUDE. My forefathers died to give me my attitude.

I served in the United States Marine Corps, and I earned my attitude of superiority many times over.

However, The Dutch have some pretty good dogs, and I think that their country is kinda cute. We have to let you guys do something better right???

I mean this in the most not polite, we could take your shit anytime we wanted to, kind of way. Be glad we don't.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Oh you editing weasels. 

See Dick, we have too much censorship here in the land of the free as well.

1st amendment anyone????


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

I didn't edit, n I wouldn't object to unediting if people felt so inclined, I really couldn't care less anymore :lol:


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Mike Schoonbrood said:


> I didn't edit, n I wouldn't object to unediting if people felt so inclined, I really couldn't care less anymore :lol:



Okey-doke, then....... it's restored!


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Success! 

I would like to thank our wonderful Mods for NOT being editing weasels.


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

Doug Wendling said:


> Tim
> Are you going to the Championship next Sept?
> 
> Doug


yes. that is the plan...


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: Because your country (mostly filled with immigrants if you won´t forget...... ) is bigger, does not mean youre country is better also in everything.
> THAT´s the attitude most people hate here in europe.and a stereotype of the image they have from Americans. Misplaced superieur attitude.
> I can list you a pack of things you can learn a lot about and the US is not better in .
> Don´nt make the mistake to patronice our country because the size in square miles is smaller. Maybe our mind is bigger.....
> ...


At first, for some reason you feel this comment of mine is also meant for you. It wasn´t. But now I realise it is. You confirm with your reply exacly what I´refering to. You could´nt give a better example of what I mean.

At first I would not like this to turn this in a kind of "political" debate, but you´re making it very difficult not to.

I´ll be the wiser and "bigger" man not to. I don´t want to hurt your ego more as I apparently have already. AND I certainly do not want to hurt the people on this forum with a healthy attitude as humans/worldcitycins, like most are.
So Jeff BE the misplaces superieur American I talked about......... Good luck.

greetz
Dick


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Dick, I would be more than glad to train with you anytime, however, this is my country, and for all our foolishness I will not let anyone bash it.

If we bash it, fine. If we had been able to talk to you for longer than three posts, maybe a little bit.

However, to completely let that go, and on a completely different note, my all time favorite soccer player is Johan Cryuff. He rocks. (Maybe thats why I have an ego)


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## Liz Monty (Oct 22, 2006)

No matter where anyone is from, I just ignore the politics and hope to one day live in the best place ever. A warm and dryer climate, I hate our wintery, damp seasons


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Liz Monty said:


> No matter where anyone is from, I just ignore the politics and hope to one day live in the best place ever. A warm and dryer climate, I hate our wintery, damp seasons


We have wet cold(ish) winters, too, here on the central coast, although I sound like a weenie when I think back to the first half of my life (Boston area) where winter is pretty awful and the hot and humid summer is awfuller.  

But dogs need training and exercise no matter what, so at least I can't hole up under the covers when it's pouring and cold out.  

See? Dogs are important in so many ways! :lol: 

I think that Lacey's o.p. is very wise. JMO! Training dogs, and continuing to learn how to be better at it, is a good thing. :wink:


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## Liz Monty (Oct 22, 2006)

Yes, it is a good post, I like to learn as much as I can, so the continuation of Lacy's post would be great.


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## Lacey Vessell (Nov 18, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> This is awesome!!!
> 
> I have been told how bad we suck by at least someone from every dogsport. :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:
> 
> ...



Wow Jeff, congrats *devil dog* <------in case there is any doubt I am being very sarcastic, you took a thread that was an attempt to bridge the gap between sport/working dog prejudices and insulted not just a sport *but a country and its people* :x . All without your trademark :twisted: :twisted:

Thanks to everyone who contributed information, knowledge and understanding.......I for one - learned alot.


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## Andy Andrews (May 9, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: I mean this in the most not polite, we could take your crap anytime we wanted to, kind of way. Be glad we don't.



Without a doubt the most patriotic post EVER!!!



Andy.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Does anyone have anything ABOUT DOGS to add to this thread?


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## Andy Andrews (May 9, 2006)

Connie, wouldn't this qualify? :twisted: "*devil dog*" :twisted: 




Andy.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Nope.


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## Lacey Vessell (Nov 18, 2006)

On a lighter note: As I spoke about certain people (club members) labeling my dog in the beginning of this thread........Earlier today at training she did something that should give them something to talk about for awhile - it would be funnier if it was not my dog that did this:

Coda was on the pole. Helper had been frustrating her a bit trying to get her to come back to the end of the line as she likes to bait him in. She lunged to the end of the line and did strike the sleeve hard and full, but she also engaged his leg with her front ones wrapping them around his leg and began to hump the helper. Some of the names the helper called her - I would not repeat in polite company.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

That is awesome. Buko would be glad to date her.  

I find it funny when helpers get mad at a dog being dominent over them. I would be dancing around with joy. Rare thing to have a strong dog around.

Obviously you need to switch to a ringsport if at all possible before they do that silly Sch stick cleaning crap and make her insane.

Your damn right I am a DEVIL DOG. I could take Holland by myself. Thats what the Marines are there for, not some dumbed down cop show.  

How low did they have to drop the physical standards for chicks to join????? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHA.

So there.

What, you thought Marines were polite? Those were pogues, I was a widowmaker. Not for public consumption.


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## Lacey Vessell (Nov 18, 2006)

ann freier said:


> and, just as a caveat, from what i've been told, in this part of the country, after inquiring about doing some training w/PD here:
> 
> these ppl do not really train, they mostly attempt to "maintain" the training their dogs have when they purchase them. and maybe that's enough for the PD, and that's ok for them.
> 
> i have offered to let them use my property to train--gotten a "less-than" enthusiastic response from them , and see no real reason to chase after them: i'll just train mine. their loss.


Ann,

I would have jumped all over the chance to utilize your property for training - but who knows why this particular agency chose not to....perhaps it was departmental policy due to liability issues. I spent alot of time knocking on doors of business owners, private property owners, as well as contacting the military bases in my area to have a constant supply of different places to conduct training . Most if not all gave permission, to have someone come up to me or my department and offer the use of their property would have been well received. We would have been chasing you down for sure  

I first joined the club I am now with, in all honesty, to have another place to train as I did not have a dog for SchH/IPO at the time. I'm sure if you had asked most of the club members how much time I spent training my partner by what they actually saw - they would say very little. If I was not on duty or sleeping, I was training in various locations much to my better half's dismay. Sometimes if people don't see it with their own eyes, they don't think it is being done. Then again, you have those who just wanta squeek by and those that want nothing less then a stellar performance. In my old line of work - it might of made the difference between life or death - so squeeking by or maintaining was never an option in my mind. 

Sorry your input to the thread was not acknowledged sooner.


Jeff,

Bahhhhhhhhh - I usta run circles around the male Marines at DI School and out in the fleet. A squared away Marine - is a squared away Marine no matter what the sex. The Marine Corps Doesn't Build Character, It Reveals It . Semper Fi!!


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## Liz Monty (Oct 22, 2006)

Lacy, my dad was in the air force, 4th allied tactical, nato and that Sempa Fi sounds like a phrase he used to say to another relative who was marine, I think he used to mean it as I'll fight you, any day, is that correct translation????? :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Running circles around the pogues that want to be DI's counts for nothing. 

Go to Onslow beach and see what you can do with the recon Marines. I'll bet the farm no circles are run there............except around you. :twisted:


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Running circles around the pogues that want to be DI's counts for nothing.
> 
> Go to Onslow beach and see what you can do with the recon Marines. I'll bet the farm no circles are run there............except around you. :twisted:


The duck thread is closer to dog training than this is. :roll: :lol:


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## Lacey Vessell (Nov 18, 2006)

Liz Monty said:


> Lacy, my dad was in the air force, 4th allied tactical, nato and that Sempa Fi sounds like a phrase he used to say to another relative who was marine, I think he used to mean it as I'll fight you, any day, is that correct translation????? :lol: :lol: :lol:


Liz,

Official Answer:

The Marine Corps adopted Semper Fidelis as its official motto in 1883 (Semper Fidelis is also the title of the official musical March of the Marine Corps). Translated from Latin, Semper Fidelis means "Always Faithful." U.S. Marines use an abbreviated verbal version, "Semper Fi," to voice loyalty and commitment to their Marine comrades-in-arms. 

My Answer:

Yup I heard it yelled more then a few times before a brawl would start :twisted: 

Jeff Oehlsen Posted: 

Running circles around the pogues that want to be DI's counts for nothing. 

Go to Onslow beach and see what you can do with the recon Marines. I'll bet the farm no circles are run there............except around you. 

I enjoy going to Onslow Beach - 15 minute drive - I actually have to agree with you concerning them running circles around me but then they will also run circles around most male Marines that are not Recon  

Sorry Connie, it was training.....just not dog training. I will cease and desist from further comments associated with "devil dog" talk.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Of course we run circles around pogues.


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## Liz Monty (Oct 22, 2006)

Oh please let's get back to dogs, it is so much more needed on the forum for many people who want to learn about All aspects of training and healthy views of differences in ways of training and who's breeding is producing great dogs and why. I'm here to learn what I feel I need to learn. Many opinions have begun arguments that have turned personal. Not fair, no one needs to be personally attacked because there is a disagreement. Comments on intelligence or methods or terminology are best used in productive ways, not mean and petty ways. Some of us are not as well endowed with "quick combacks" and "quick references" to challenges of who is best and why they are best. Not pointing fingers here, but let's all get along for now on. I am willing to, let's all try it. :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## Lacey Vessell (Nov 18, 2006)

Point well taken Liz - I agree  

Let's close this thread on a happy note - Wonder what these lil' pups ( from Malinois "de Atlawar" litter) will grow up to become: (hope at least one of the two pics brings a smile to your face) :wink:


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## Woody Taylor (Mar 28, 2006)

Lacey Vessell said:


> Let's close this thread on a happy note


Good idea! Nice pics! 

I'm locking this thread down.


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