# Look at this F---- Dogs guarding.



## James Downey

Another trainer just showed me this dog....apparently the handler claims he is socially stable, but very serious in his work

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2z7xKpdGXW4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TnHptKyatc4&feature=relmfu


I am going to go ahead say this dog is real. And I will forever show this video to people who claim thier dog who barks for a bite is real. 

Heres the problem with IPO guarding, it's not guarding, it's getting. The dog is not guarding anything. The dog is barking to get something. I do not think you can create the guarding you see above with a dog who is "getting" something, he has to be guarding a resource, protecting his shit. I mean the dog is guarding a shovel. A shovel. I do not know why he is guarding it, but I am pretty sure it's his shovel.


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## Thomas Barriano

I wouldn't call him "stable" based on either of those video clips.
Dog looks more scared then anything else :-(


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## Nicole Stark

James Downey said:


> I do not think you can create the guarding you see above with a dog who is "getting" something, he has to be guarding a resource, protecting his shit.


Enter Tornado :twisted::

http://video.google.nl/videoplay?docid=3938585696137749010&q=knpv+tornado


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## todd pavlus

He is stable and so are his pups from what I have seen


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## Joby Becker

Thomas Barriano said:


> I wouldn't call him "stable" based on either of those video clips.
> Dog looks more scared then anything else :-(


lol....thomas you really take the cake for that one...

that was funny as hell....


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## Thomas Barriano

Joby Becker said:


> lol....thomas you really take the cake for that one...
> 
> that was funny as hell....


What ever you say Joby.
The dogs ears were back.
He was avoiding eye contact and if my dog is guarding something I want him BITING anyone that gets that close.


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## will fernandez

Lucas is very a nice dog.....


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## Joby Becker

Thomas Barriano said:


> What ever you say Joby.
> The dogs ears were back.
> He was avoiding eye contact and if my dog is guarding something I want him BITING anyone that gets that close.


of course the dogs fukking ears were back... that means to you, that the dog is scared?

I see the dog showing good eye contact almost the entire time, looks at the shovel a couple times, and possibly off at someone else nearby...

I would also guess that the handler is probably the one filming.

I can do this same type of thing with my female fairly easily...


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## Thomas Barriano

Joby Becker said:


> what if it was the handler filming?


If it was the handler filming it's even worse. NO reason for that kind of reaction to the handler. I don't know the dog and I'm not really familiar with that kind of an object guard. I'm basing my opinions on two short video clips.


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## Thomas Barriano

I"m done with you Joby. I can't answer your posts before you edit/change them.


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## Joby Becker

Thomas Barriano said:


> If it was the handler filming it's even worse. NO reason for that kind of reaction to the handler. I don't know the dog and I'm not really familiar with that kind of an object guard. I'm basing my opinions on two short video clips.


it is not a trained object guard is my guess, the shovel at least.

it looks like natural guarding behaviors, that have been built up some, coupled with possession of objects in general..dog guards, and is shown it is OK to do so...

my dog would do the same thing, has before, over a cigarette butt on the ground...

that dog would most likely eat you Thomas.


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## Thomas Barriano

James Downey said:


> And I am sure if Thomas was there, he would not be able to touch the dog's box. And I am not sure Thomas would have the Courage to act in the face of his own fear and try. So the dog would win.


James

You don't have a fukin clue whether I could touch the box or not.
You also don't have a fukin clue what I fear. Go play with your clicker LMAO


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## Joby Becker

Thomas Barriano said:


> I"m done with you Joby. I can't answer your posts before you edit/change them.


maybe you should wait til I word them properly...give it a minute or two 

I am betting everything I own you could not touch that shovel.


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## Joby Becker

Thomas Barriano said:


> If it was the handler filming it's even worse. NO reason for that kind of reaction to the handler. I don't know the dog and I'm not really familiar with that kind of an object guard. I'm basing my opinions on two short video clips.


maybe you shouldnt base your opinions on two short video clips  of course there is a reason for it, the guy is trying to take his shovel away


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## Britney Pelletier

todd pavlus said:


> He is stable and so are his pups from what I have seen



Yep!


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## Joby Becker

James,

here are some more vids of Lucas, he got perfect score of 440 in the nomination trial for the championships.

Both his father and his great grandfather were champs. his great grandfather won 5 national championships...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BbRUW5vRWko
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E9vnw8OvnIU&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8gBsiIgZ1HM


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## Brian McQuain

He has a purdy mouf


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## Britney Pelletier

Joby Becker said:


> James,
> 
> here are some more vids of Lucas, he got perfect score of 440 in the nomination trial for the championships.
> 
> Both his father and his great grandfather were champs. his great grandfather won 5 national championships...
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BbRUW5vRWko
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E9vnw8OvnIU&feature=related
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8gBsiIgZ1HM


Super excited for my Lucas pup to get here!


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## Nicole Stark

Thomas Barriano said:


> The dogs ears were back.


Man, I hate that too. How the hell do you fix that anyway Thomas? Looks just terrible when a dog is working. :-k

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wiRH9Wok4fY


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## Nicole Stark

Thomas Barriano said:


> NO reason for that kind of reaction to the handler.


Is it possible, at least in your mind, that the reaction was to something else or a product of something else?


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## Eric Read

I"m guessing it's not a natural guarding behavior and he's been conditioned to this type of resource guarding by messing with food bowls from the time he was a puppy and transferring it to other objects.


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## Thomas Barriano

Nicole Stark said:


> Man, I hate that too. How the hell do you fix that anyway Thomas? Looks just terrible when a dog is working. :-k
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wiRH9Wok4fY



I'd use a clicker and plenty of treats


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## Thomas Barriano

Nicole Stark said:


> Is it possible, at least in your mind, that the reaction was to something else or a product of something else?


I suspect it's a created behavior. Maybe like Eric said by messing with his food bowl. I don't like the look and I don't like what it says about the relationship with the dog. Different strokes.........


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## Peter Cavallaro

I really thought it some whipped crazy ghetto dog chained with no escape to a box, then soon learned its a high level sport dog??? shows how little i know.

Still the picture to me looked absolutely horrible.

Folks were on my case that my vid of a dog working on a short leash was worthless to analyse cos the decoy was out of camera view.....well??? 

Was that dog on a really short chain???


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## Joby Becker

Eric Read said:


> I"m guessing it's not a natural guarding behavior and he's been conditioned to this type of resource guarding by messing with food bowls from the time he was a puppy and transferring it to other objects.


Eric.

I do not know the dog or the handler obviously, so that is entirely possible, but I doubt it personally.

my dog displayed this type of behavior, and still will if allowed, or encouraged, or commanded, the pup I held back was doing this sort of thing in a "serious" puppy sort of way out of the womb, whatever I picked up or showed interest in, he wanted it (anything, not just toys and food) and wanted to keep it, and would act a fool if allowed to do so, or approached in a "silly" manner.

The first time I really saw an aggressively possessive behavior, out of the bitch, it was over a small rock she was playing with,not very long after I got her home, 12-13 weeks, something like that.

I have never ever, messed with any of my dogs food, ever.

i imagine in my mind, that the puppy could have just been like this one in regards to "guardiness", I dont think Mike messed with the food.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=50rb6slPFVc&feature=plcp

on the other topic.

The reason I would guess that it was the handler filming was that the dog was not restrained in any way, and did not bite whoever was filming, when they got that close...I also would bet money if a stranger (thomas included) tried to take that shovel, they would be bitten.

I personally have put a "guard" command, on my dog for objects, the dog will do the same thing, I have no doubts the dog would bite me if I was really really really stupid, and not just "mildly" retarded. I have tested the dog with other people and the dog does bite people that would get that close, and some that are not that close, have also tested it in the muzzle...

I made this video as a joke, of how NOT to try to get something from your dog, but it does show a small degree of the "guardiness" of the dog, just by approaching the dog in the incorrect manner to try to get something from her, this was without any command, just some subtle encouragement. command would have been a little different.

Notice at about 3:15, the dogs ears are back LOL... I think that is aggressive display, coupled with uncertainty and internal conflict, NOT FEAR....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KhSxSieU1aM



Peter Cavallaro said:


> I really thought it some whipped crazy ghetto dog chained with no escape to a box, then soon learned its a high level sport dog??? shows how little i know.
> Still the picture to me looked absolutely horrible.
> Folks were on my case that my vid of a dog working on a short leash was worthless to analyse cos the decoy was out of camera view.....well???
> Was that dog on a really short chain???


Pete, the dog is a being used as a stud to produce police dogs, in addition to being a high level sport dog.

the dog is not chained at all, loose leash is laying on the ground. Dog keeps his foot on the shovel. Same thing with the box, loose lead on ground... :roll::roll:

I imagine (always imagining I know) that the shovel was placed into the ground, and the dog was told to "guard" it, so it went and guarded it. that simple really I think.


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## Joby Becker

Thomas Barriano said:


> I suspect it's a created behavior. Maybe like Eric said by messing with his food bowl. I don't like the look and I don't like what it says about the relationship with the dog. Different strokes.........


no doubt a created behavior, rooted in natural guarding tendencies.


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## rick smith

i've asked before how and why the object guard was inserted in sports and never got an answer. with that said, the dog in the clip had CLEARLY been trained and i suspect would guard ANY object with the same aggressiveness and would bite anyone including the handler if it wasn't called off first.

regarding the natural tendency to guard ... very little genetics at work imo and that type of aggressive guarding has been bred out of most domestic dogs for centuries and would NOT be a desirable trait ... imo of course
- you can observe feral dog packs, where resources might be even more scarce, and usually you will NOT see a lot of resource guarding between them

"messing" with food bowls for many dogs will of course condition this, but i would sure as hell hope that is NOT how professional trainers would start it if they were training an OG and would seem just plain stooopid and counter productive to use food bowls 

dogs who have been encouraged to resource/object guard can be dangerous since they will often choose an object to guard on their own with no command ..... then you have a dog who will bite when anyone takes away "their" possession unless they are COUNTER conditioned to knock that punk shit off :-(
...for MOST dogs (pets or otherwise), i feel it is an unacceptable ANTI-social behavior that should be EXTINGUISHED when the early signs first show up
... working with one right now that has the problem BIG time and it is dangerous in a home environment ... got that way from LOTS and LOTS of sleeve give aways and possession, and its cuz balls and deer antlers certainly didn't help either

bottom line .... don't give if you can't take away, and if you are supplying all the needed resources to your dog, what extras do they need to keep for their own, anyway ??
.... just my personal philosophy and realize many feel just the opposite 

the "right" kind of possessiveness in dogs might be an interesting topic in itself ?


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## will fernandez

It a large article search for police work...the dog is sent out to search for large article that it cant pick up or shouldnt...dog gives verbal alert and guards article til handler pickd it up


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## Christopher Smith

Peter Cavallaro said:


> I really thought it some whipped crazy ghetto dog chained with no escape to a box, then soon learned its a high level sport dog??? shows how little i know.


Yes it does; about dogs and the ghetto.


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## Christopher Smith

Joby Becker said:


> no doubt a created behavior, rooted in natural guarding tendencies.


This is my thought too. I see this a lot in Chihuahuas.


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## jim stevens

My mal is one that has the same possessiveness that the puppy shows, she was the same way as a baby. She is almost a year old and you definitely don't want to reach in quickly and grab something from her (toys, etc.). What is the method used to teach them to guard an object? I think it would be pretty easy to get mine to do it, just wondered how you train it.


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## Nicole Stark

Thomas Barriano said:


> I'd use a clicker and plenty of treats


 
Good idea. Next time I'll make sure the clicker is hidden instead of the ball.


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## Joby Becker

rick smith said:


> i've asked before how and why the object guard was inserted in sports and never got an answer. with that said, the dog in the clip had CLEARLY been trained and i suspect would guard ANY object with the same aggressiveness and would bite anyone including the handler if it wasn't called off first.
> 
> regarding the natural tendency to guard ... very little genetics at work imo and that type of aggressive guarding has been bred out of most domestic dogs for centuries and would NOT be a desirable trait ... imo of course
> - you can observe feral dog packs, where resources might be even more scarce, and usually you will NOT see a lot of resource guarding between them
> 
> "messing" with food bowls for many dogs will of course condition this, but i would sure as hell hope that is NOT how professional trainers would start it if they were training an OG and would seem just plain stooopid and counter productive to use food bowls
> 
> dogs who have been encouraged to resource/object guard can be dangerous since they will often choose an object to guard on their own with no command ..... then you have a dog who will bite when anyone takes away "their" possession unless they are COUNTER conditioned to knock that punk shit off :-(
> ...for MOST dogs (pets or otherwise), i feel it is an unacceptable ANTI-social behavior that should be EXTINGUISHED when the early signs first show up
> ... working with one right now that has the problem BIG time and it is dangerous in a home environment ... got that way from LOTS and LOTS of sleeve give aways and possession, and its cuz balls and deer antlers certainly didn't help either
> 
> bottom line .... don't give if you can't take away, and if you are supplying all the needed resources to your dog, what extras do they need to keep for their own, anyway ??
> .... just my personal philosophy and realize many feel just the opposite
> 
> the "right" kind of possessiveness in dogs might be an interesting topic in itself ?


Rick, obviously trained. but you are not gonna get that without some strong genetic tendencies being present. There are certainly plenty of lines that produce dogs with higher levels of natural possessiveness and guarding than others, proven fact. 


as far as the object guard goes in sport. it is used to show that the dog can be trained to control itself and bite when someone tries to take its "whatever" and return to guard it again. dog does not have to have natural guarding behaviors to train that.

I have heard that strong natural aggressive guarding tendencies actually make the training for sport more difficult in some aspects.

in that video above the box does not really need to be "guarded" naturally as the handler is the one who approaches the box, the dog is supposed to find it and bark...

I imagine (again) that this dogs actual "object guard" for the sport work, does not look anything like what these videos show... dog probably lays there quietly, waits for the correct time, bites, lets go and returns to the object.

I find I mostly agree with you on topics, except when you go on about things bred out of dogs when they were becoming domesticated, and go on comparing certain dog traits with traits in wild canids...

Dogs are bred by people for specific reasons, dogs like the one here, are bred for traits such as aggression and possession, to be used for certain aspects of the work they are intended to do.

Many working dogs are so selectively bred they have very little to do with traits originally bred out for domestication, or traits exhibited in the wild canids. Many of these types of dogs if put into novices hand, such as "joe blow" and his family, would end up putting people in the hospital, that is a fact. Regardless of the opinion that the traits are bred out, or undesirable. 

Undesirable to who? society at large, the pet markets? There are plenty of dogs that are bred for purposes where they are not expected to be ideal members of society, or fit into family home life.Dogs that are fine, if the handlers know how to control them and handle them safely. 

That dog was not intended to be a pet, or have anyone trying to take stuff away from him. Although I am sure the handler can take stuff from him.

I know you are a smart person, so not sure why you are always doubting things, because they "have been bred out" through domestication. You need to get out and take a look at more dogs, and you will see all these traits that are "bred out" have not actually been bred out, and in many cases "bred for".

That dog is a "top of the food chain" type dog, used as a stud dog to produce serious police and sport dogs, not pets, as the goal.

The 'right' kind of possessiveness? that would be an interesting topic for sure. Start up a thread 

this type of behavior can be extinguished in most dogs,and in others it is easily managed. you just dont walk up and try to take their stuff if it is on the ground and they are thinking about guarding it, or they dont willingly give it to you, and others, you just dont give them things that you might want back right away...

The point is dogs like this are not meant to be household pets, they are not meant to be put into hands of people that do not know how to deal with the traits the dog can bring to the table, and the people that own that dog, know how to handle him.

I have trained and encouraged my dog to "guard" stuff on command. some times with things the dog does not even want, she is guarding on command, not "resource" guarding... I did this because the natural tendencies were there already, and could be built on, has transferred into nice active guarding of the decoy in the suit for an escort. there is a clear line where that type of active aggressive guarding is permitted.

I do admit there have been some times that the dog has guarded her toys, and other things, even before training any guarding. growling and snapping not barking. She has never shown food guarding, but then again nobody messes with her food, no reason to..

there is a strict rule around here, if the dog is playing with a toy or a bone or whatever, and does not bring it to you, and put it in your hand, you DO NOT just try to grab it, especially if the dog has the item on the ground and is hovering by it... I can do this of course.

It is (for me) a very simple matter to tell the dog to leave it or out. and/or to have the dog do some placement command for retrieving things safely if the dog really really likes them and the dog shows possessiveness. Easier for some people than others, easier with some dogs than others...of course....

think what you want to, but dude, the dog in this thread's breeding has very very little, if anything to do with wild canids, or how dogs were bred in the early years of domestication. Dogs like this have been selectively bred to have the total package of traits, expressed very dominantly in there character and drive packages, to be able to be effectively trained to do the various types work expected of them, and do them well...


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## Joby Becker

Christopher Smith said:


> This is my thought too. I see this a lot in Chihuahuas.


and yorkies..


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## rick smith

re: "just wondered how you train it" 
sounds like you're well along the way now // lol //

and since it seems like you don't need to teach them to go to the place of the object and plant on it :

just keep giving em things to "guard" and keep backing off when they growl .... rinse and repeat 

decide what radius you want them to only guard, and when you want them to bite...move inside the radius and praise the hell out of em when they bite but correct if they bite too soon
(might need a helper here to control radius if you don't tie out)

give em different objects and do it in more places, than add things they don't care so much about .. once it's solid add the verbal command

what sport are you training ??


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## Joby Becker

rick smith said:


> re: "just wondered how you train it"
> sounds like you're well along the way now // lol //
> 
> and since it seems like you don't need to teach them to go to the place of the object and plant on it :
> 
> just keep giving em things to "guard" and keep backing off when they growl .... rinse and repeat
> 
> decide what radius you want them to only guard, and when you want them to bite...move inside the radius and praise the hell out of em when they bite but correct if they bite too soon
> (might need a helper here to control radius if you don't tie out)
> 
> give em different objects and do it in more places, than add things they don't care so much about .. once it's solid add the verbal command
> 
> what sport are you training ??


not quite how I did it, but should work  probably not a good way to teach it for sport at all though....


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## Nicole Stark

> the "right" kind of possessiveness in dogs might be an interesting topic in itself ?


Indeed. I guess it might have been overlooked that this thread may have been about just that.


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## Meng Xiong

Excuse the noob question, but whats the difference between this dog's OG and, for example, the OG in the vid below?

I see Boris's OG and it looks quite impressive to me, but then again, I know nothing about these dogs, the sport, and OG training.

http://youtu.be/TcXlxamv0NU

Thanks, discus away!


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## jim stevens

Rick

The short answer would be no sport. I am not really close to any clubs (in the country), so don't have the opportunity or the extra time to travel. I have had several working breed dogs, but the best description would be personal companion/protection dog. Mine is almost a year old, and I've been getting along pretty well, for someone with minimal dog training experience, she will heel off leash all around the neighborhood, with loose dogs, cars driving by down the road, rabbits running, etc, will sit and do a long down (10-15 minutes if I need), does decent bitework, she will do a long bite, and finally very quick 'outs', retrieves, catches balls in the air, does frisbees, often sleeps in the bed with my wife and I, and chews deer antlers into non-existence. I'm not sure what that all makes her, but she's a pretty nice dog, IMO., and with a decent pedigree.


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## Joby Becker

Meng Xiong said:


> Excuse the noob question, but whats the difference between this dog's OG and, for example, the OG in the vid below?
> 
> I see Boris's OG and it looks quite impressive to me, but then again, I know nothing about these dogs, the sport, and OG training.
> 
> http://youtu.be/TcXlxamv0NU
> 
> Thanks, discuss away!


I did not see Boris's OG in that video. 
If you are talking about him on the box, I like it..

Just in case there is some confusion, this video shows what the OG looks like in KNPV. 

Various dogs performing it...(notice what you dont see?)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoX5qcrJWIw


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## Joby Becker

one more question for Rick.

Rick, if you think (as I know you do) that many of these various traits are not genetic traits, and have been bred out of dogs through domestication, how does the fact that so many dogs, some of which you yourself describe, have these traits? and become "problem dogs" for people fit into that point of view?

if I have 4 dogs here (hypethetical). raised all 4 similarly...how can you explain it if:

Dog 1 is resource guarder.
Dog 2 is super territorial.
Dog 3 is socially aggressive towards people in general.
Dog 4 is none of these.

I get what you mean, that the traits are unknowingly allowed to surface and become part or life, or encouraged unwittingly by some, purposefully by others, but to say there is no strong genetic component to some of these types of behaviors, I cannot agree with. As certain breeding pretty much produce certain types of dogs fairly consistently that will show these behaviors.


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## James Downey

Thomas Barriano said:


> James
> 
> You don't have a fukin clue whether I could touch the box or not.
> You also don't have a fukin clue what I fear. Go play with your clicker LMAO


 
Yeah I know what you fear.Your not unique or special. and Every Girl I have ever met says " I am not like other girls". They were all the same. 

And I will go play with my clicker,.... After I get it off your Mom's dresser.


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## Nicole Stark

Joby Becker said:


> but to say there is no strong genetic component to some of these types of behaviors, I cannot agree with.


Nor should you. Not that you would but I think you know what I am getting at.

And James, just a comment about what you said above, if every girl you met was the same how do you explain the fact that you are married? Certainly, something about that particular one was different. No?


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## will fernandez

Lucas is not doing the og...with the shovel...that is box response


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## James Downey

Nope she's like all the rest, by the time I met her, I had figured it out, so when she said, " I have never done this before on the first date." I knew either I was the luckiest the guy in the world, or every girl I met was lying to me about thier past first dates. LOL.


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## Nicole Stark

Done what?

And BTW I call BS on that. I've read here the way you describe your wife. That collection of descriptives is generally reserved for the few who find someone they love and respect to be exceedling important and special to them. But, go ahead and say what you want. Doesn't mean I have to believe you.


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## rick smith

Joby
i do get out every now and then 
anyway i just don't think resource guarding is as genetic as you think it is ... i feel it is mostly a conditioned behavior and that's the only main difference i had with your analysis implying it was not ...the feral dog thing was just an example to reinforce my view

most dogs on this planet are pets to some degree ... even a lot of working dogs ... can't know for sure but might even be true for this list
i still say an OG MUST be trained well or it is a dangerous behavior to condition ... no more no less meant there 

i do know serious dogs belong with serious experienced handlers/owners and kept in a carefully controlled living situation ... MANY are not ... not as serious dogs with not as experienced owners ... than accidents happen ... no biggy that's reality

...your dog can be serious, you can control it and you have ground rules for everyone else ... that should prevent 99% of em 

i really do think i could recognize the difference between a dog that has been carefully bred for controlled aggression and one that has not ... still doesn't change the genetics of a domestic dog and most of the millions that are running around are not natural born resources guarders and have few if any tendencies towards it unless conditioned that way..even working breeds
if that was NOT true why is it so hard to train a correct solid OG ?
- or do you think it is an easy behavior to train ?

- so i still say people who have a dog that will snap at someone if something is taken away from them have a problem dog, not a strong clear headed well trained dog like they might think ... they can take it or leave it; i'm not gonna change their opinion of their dog 

but also, i have known MANY people that have taught their dogs to bite but failed to teach them when NOT to bite and that always pisses me off...just getting old and cranky maybe


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## John Wolf

The original guarding videos reminded me of this video. Looks like resource type guarding, learned behavior with a nice big dose of natural possessiveness.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=il2_SHS9B7Y


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## rick smith

Joby
re: "but to say there is no strong genetic component to some of these types of behaviors, I cannot agree with. As certain breeding pretty much produce certain types of dogs fairly consistently that will show these behaviors."

ok, i will believe that ... and it will become even more truer as the breeding continues, because the traits become more genetically ingrained ... the training than becomes that much easier since you don't have to "bring out" what is already there, correct ?


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## Zakia Days

Thomas Barriano said:


> If it was the handler filming it's even worse. NO reason for that kind of reaction to the handler. I don't know the dog and I'm not really familiar with that kind of an object guard. I'm basing my opinions on two short video clips.


I'm not going to read any further. Just wanted to say Thomas that you've not seen the different kinds of object guard. If anyone in that scenario reaches dwn to touch or take the object w/o proper equipment they will be missing a limb and/or fingers once they draw there hand/arm back. You don't see the owner reaching down there to remove the object. He is encouraging the dog to guard the object also. He is to guard it from whomever, wherever, however until he is "shut off" if you will. I've seen the posted clips in the past and that is a pretty good object guard. You must also know the purpose of this kind of guard before you critique it.


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## Britney Pelletier

will fernandez said:


> Lucas is not doing the og...with the shovel...that is box response


Exactly.. and as I understand it, the dogs are taught to GUARD and possess the box and are never allowed to bite it..

it's not a simple matter of teaching a place command and back chaining the place command to going for a stroll in the woods to find your place. Perhaps some folks in KNPV train it like that, but I wouldn't say it's the norm.. most of them want exactly what you see in this video. If you listen closely in the shovel video, the handler is giving the dog a command by rolling his tongue.. the dog isn't trying to bite him. He's the dude that taught the dog how to do that.


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## James Downey

Nicole Stark said:


> Done what?
> 
> And BTW I call BS on that. I've read here the way you describe your wife. That collection of descriptives is generally reserved for the few who find someone they love and respect to be exceedling important and special to them. But, go ahead and say what you want. Doesn't mean I have to believe you.


 
And nor do I have to walk right into a loaded question;-)


----------



## Nicole Stark

James Downey said:


> And nor do I have to walk right into a loaded question;-)


Ya, that's assuming I had an agenda in presenting it. 

Silly. The answer was obviously yes. Simple as that. That's generally the reason people get married because they've found that one person who was different and compliments their life in some way.


----------



## will fernandez

Britney Pelletier said:


> Exactly.. and as I understand it, the dogs are taught to GUARD and possess the box and are never allowed to bite it..
> 
> it's not a simple matter of teaching a place command and back chaining the place command to going for a stroll in the woods to find your place. Perhaps some folks in KNPV train it like that, but I wouldn't say it's the norm.. most of them want exactly what you see in this video. If you listen closely in the shovel video, the handler is giving the dog a command by rolling his tongue.. the dog isn't trying to bite him. He's the dude that taught the dog how to do that.


 
make dog crazy for the box...food in it, toy in it or agitate with the box....make dog bark at the box...make dog stand on and bark at the box...start addinng distance to start from the box...hide the box....then to change over to police work....tie a gun or evidence on top of the box and hide it all together...then remove the box and just use evidence and there you have it


----------



## will fernandez

For the object guard you want the dog in calm state of mind...he must release on his own...Having the dog bark himself crazy is counter productive to what the excercise is about.


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## Joby Becker

rick smith said:


> Joby
> 
> ok, i will believe that ... and it will become even more truer as the breeding continues, because the traits become more genetically ingrained ... the training than becomes that much easier since you don't have to "bring out" what is already there, correct ?


Rick, that is not really a OG situation, either video, it is more of a display of the dogs possession and aggression, as I am sure you know by now. But that dog would bite anyone that tried to take that shovel from him, like you said...

I do not think that many of the character traits being discussed, make the training that much easier at all. They present a sometimes even more difficult challenge in themselves.

Breeding for those strong traits will go towards making sure the dogs have the right qualities to do effective work, in their working venues, outside of sport.

I also "think" that breeding dogs for very strong character is not increasing, breeding trends by the majority seem to be going the other direction, for the most part. 

What I was trying to say is there are some dogs that have the traits we have discussed in the present and past, expressed in strong fashion, in very young puppies..from birth. most of those behaviors are dealt with through good handling, training, and control.

I just do not agree with many of the analogies you put forth, concerning the genetic aspects, because I have owned and seen plenty of dogs that have had some of the traits we have talked about, that presented itself very strongly in very young puppies. You and I have went the rounds a little bit, and one of your mainstays is trying to describe certain things about dogs, in reference to wild canids, or in terms of way back when dogs were domesticated...

I am here to say that "some" of the dogs that are around today, would not make the selection during that early domestication process . 

The people would think the dogs were fuking nuts and spear them, after they got attacked by them....


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## Nicole Stark

Joby I think you've done a nice job explaining this issue. It's somewhat foreign to think of possession being anything other than a developed behavior/response - especially when dealing mostly pet dogs. It is a clearly distinctive trait that is there from early on and there's plenty of videos to on line to illustrate this.

My snipe is possessive and she will regularly guard anything that seems appealing to her. Anything that I can or will activate she will attempt to dive in to get and then do her best keep, sometimes destroy or consume it. Certainly, OB plays an important role because of this issue. That said, I have no interest in extinguishing this possessive behavior but of course, I certainly don't want her consuming the objects she gets so that does get put to an end. 

Oddly she seems mostly ground specific - if it hits the ground its hers, if it was there and I want it its hers, if I look at it its hers, if I walk towards something neither of us had or wanted its hers. Understand I merely mean in her mind its hers. Obviously, I don't necessarily give into this and sometimes I have her do something useful with it like root pulling. She's actually rather tidy about that job. Makes little piles from them. Walk towards them and she'll lay on them and become dead weight if you try to physically move her off them. Very stiff, dark eyed, dead weight. And yes Rick just in case you are wondering she can be called off or will move into a sit when she gets like that.

I'm really not making light of this. That's what she does. If she keeps herself in check it's not a problem.


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## Bob Scott

will fernandez said:


> For the object guard you want the dog in calm state of mind...he must release on his own...Having the dog bark himself crazy is counter productive to what the excercise is about.



Rage vs responsibility

Rage is "Get the **** away from my stuff or I'll eat your head off and $#!+ down the hole in your neck".
Responsibility is "I have the job of protecting this object and I'll do it to the best of my ability".

Maybe a trained behavior but it looked like he was so cranked he wanted to bite the guy coming to remove him from the box. I see that as a dog that would be easier to pull off the object with a bit of smoke and mirrors. TO reactive and not enough though behind it.


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## Joby Becker

Bob Scott said:


> Rage vs responsibility
> 
> Rage is "Get the **** away from my stuff or I'll eat your head off and $#!+ down the hole in your neck".
> Responsibility is "I have the job of protecting this object and I'll do it to the best of my ability".
> 
> Maybe a trained behavior but it looked like he was so cranked he wanted to bite the guy coming to remove him from the box. I see that as a dog that would be easier to pull off the object with a bit of smoke and mirrors. TO reactive and not enough though behind it.


bob, in case you missed it. the box is a totally separate excercise. 

that dog on the box and on the shovel, scored a 438 out of 440, in his PH1 exam, and a perfect 440 points at the nomination trial for the national championships.

The object guard is like you said, calm, focused, do the job..

the job on the box, is to find the box, bark and not eat the box while waiting for the handler to get there.


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## rick smith

Nicole...never for one instant didn't think you could control your snipe

why you like the possessiveness and don't want to extinguish it is not for me to judge
if it can be used as a benny for stump pulling ...i'm fine with that, but make sure there aren't any nasty mushrooms in there

just for me in my little world, possessiveness is a behavior that can cause more bad than good and a pita to have to "control" rather than make "go away"
... obviously no one else agrees ... got thick skin and can handle that too 

i'll start a possessiveness thread ... much later ,,,, gsd is still a PITA and worst monsoon season i can remember ...back to the leaking roof :twisted:


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## Nicole Stark

Ah Rick, I was kinda messing with you about that.

It's predictable and fairly easy to avoid. Partly for that reason it's not so much of an issue. She's like Joby's bitch in some ways, in others she's not. Joby's appears to be more active or rather reactive about her possessive behavior. Mine responds differently. She's considerably less vocal. In fact, unless you're looking to create an reaction she doesn't make a noise.

Aside from showing up or in her case racing in she mostly just gets real stiff, splay ear and legged, eyes get dark when she wants to guard something. It's certain if that if you push her or try to incite reaction from her you will get it. If you don't respond to her she gets over it and finds something else to do. Heck, I've seen her bring things to me to try do get that way over. Kinda bizarre because then it just looks like she's doing it just to get a reaction. Sounds foolish that she does that but who knows maybe it isn't that unusual, I really don't know.

I'm guessing it's probably far less of a PIA to deal with then what you are dealing with in that GSD.


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## Britney Pelletier

Joby Becker said:


> bob, in case you missed it. the box is a totally separate excercise.
> 
> that dog on the box and on the shovel, scored a 438 out of 440, in his PH1 exam, and a perfect 440 points at the nomination trial for the national championships.
> 
> The object guard is like you said, calm, focused, do the job..
> 
> the job on the box, is to find the box, bark and not eat the box while waiting for the handler to get there.


+1!

there is no need to "pull the dog off the object".. that is not the exercise. They do want the dogs strongly "guarding" and possessing the box when they get to it, but as Joby said, the point is simply to find it and bark very convincingly at it without biting it.

It is not an actual OG exercise.


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## Christopher Smith

I think that this type of behavior is rooted in the genes. Like I said before this behavior runs in certain lines and breeds...like Chihuahuas and Yorkies. It's psycho crazy behavior like spaniel rage or shadow and tail chasing. It also tends to start when the dog reaches adolescence like most other obsessive disorders.

I had a Rottie like this. If he decided key in on an object he would try to bite anyone that got too close to it, including me. But if I told him to move away he would take a few steps away from the object, wag is butt in happiness while I picked up the object. 

Now here is what made me think it's some kind of weird genetic flaw. I taught the dog a french ring object guard and the dog was perfectly normal. He didn't get hyper aggressive and crazy. He just did the object guard like a normal dog.

I have stopped this behavior with several dogs using serotonin reuptake inhibitors. That also leads me to believe that it's not a training problem.


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## Britney Pelletier

It's not really a weird genetic flaw, Chris.. a LOT of dutch dogs exhibit this type of behavior on the box. I think it has a lot more to do with the training they endure, coupled with a strong inherent desire to possess. 

It is not an object guard.. and MANY people train an object guard as nothing more than a place command that incorporates biting whomever steps within a certain radius of their place, whatever the place may be (object). It's not particularly serious and I've trained a couple times with some FR people who were teaching their dogs the exercise and taking the grips on themselves.


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## Britney Pelletier

another video of Lucas on the box, not nearly as "crazed" looking:

http://youtu.be/d2cexhrMwNg


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## Christopher Smith

Britney Pelletier said:


> It's not really a weird genetic flaw, Chris.. a LOT of dutch dogs exhibit this type of behavior on the box.


That still does not mean that it's not genetic. What exactly are people doing in the training that creates this behavior?


----------



## Christopher Smith

Britney Pelletier said:


> another video of Lucas on the box, not nearly as "crazed" looking:
> 
> http://youtu.be/d2cexhrMwNg


Same as the first just a bit less intense.


----------



## Joby Becker

Nicole Stark said:


> Ah Rick, I was kinda messing with you about that.
> 
> It's predictable and fairly easy to avoid. Partly for that reason it's not so much of an issue. She's like Joby's bitch in some ways, in others she's not. Joby's appears to be more active or rather reactive about her possessive behavior. Mine responds differently. She's considerably less vocal. In fact, unless you're looking to create an reaction she doesn't make a noise.
> 
> Aside from showing up or in her case racing in she mostly just gets real stiff, splay ear and legged, eyes get dark when she wants to guard something. It's certain if that if you push her or try to incite reaction from her you will get it. If you don't respond to her she gets over it and finds something else to do. Heck, I've seen her bring things to me to try do get that way over. Kinda bizarre because then it just looks like she's doing it just to get a reaction. Sounds foolish that she does that but who knows maybe it isn't that unusual, I really don't know.
> 
> I'm guessing it's probably far less of a PIA to deal with then what you are dealing with in that GSD.


Nicole, my do intially showed the aggression a couple times, then it was more like what your dog is like. mostly things on the ground, occasionally she will try to trick me too.

I just put a command to it, and encouraged the aggressiveness slightly and it is a behavior now, one that the dog will engage in eagerly. there is some conflict obviously, but the dog likes the conflict, I believe. why else would she run up to something with one word of encouragement and act like a fool?

if it is something that she likes, I just say "free" and she snatches it up and often brings it to me for a little fight for it. sometimes she drops it and starts guarding it again.

I have tested it to see if the dog was bluffing, just putting on a show. she is not bluffing...I'll leave it at that. seems to stay real close to things she really likes, but may move off of things to bite, forward to bite, if it is just a command to guard whatever. 

I do it for kicks mostly, and think the dog enjoys it, plus it looks cool. 

I used the behavior and applied it to a couple different things. 

escort is quiet escort. guard is active aggressive "gaurding"/escorting..

the revier (sleeve guarding) is more intense and personal now I think after developing the other stuff a little. 

It really is not an issue that I have to deal with, the dog is clear when it is allowed and when it is not... toys on the ground or bones, I can get them easily 99% of the time without a problem, depends on how much I let the dog push me around though, if she is just being guardy of her stuff on her own, it is just like your dog, cept maybe a growl will come with it.

The house rule is nobody tries to take the dogs stuff from her, unless she brings it to you and gives it up. which she does often. just a safety thing, dont need the GF, or her teenagers getting bitten.. they can tell her to "leave it" and give a placement command to her, and she will listen.

there is really no reason anyone would need to just walk up and try to grab something from the dog, at least not here anyhow.


----------



## Joby Becker

I agree Chris, strong genetic component. 

I think that the behovior can be promoted fairly easily for sure.

I played around with a OG, with a basket a few times. I said guard, she acted like that...because "guard" now means to be active and dog is allowed to get aggressive, big active display (but will bite for sure) I started to use a different command, and the behavior was non existent, it was much more like a normal OG type of thing...

I imagine it is the same type of thing (sort of) when working on a revier.
Some dogs are just much more naturally "into" it, much more active and aggressive in nature, than others. some dogs do a good impressive reiver without much work at all, others may need a lot of work to get the picture that some people want.


----------



## Britney Pelletier

Christopher Smith said:


> That still does not mean that it's not genetic. What exactly are people doing in the training that creates this behavior?



Didn't say it wasn't genetic, just said it wasn't a flaw. :wink:


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## jim stevens

Personally, I don't like the possessiveness my dog has. When I first brought her home, I wasn't on to it yet, and reached down to pick up a tug and got tagged pretty hard a couple of times. I don't think she was trying to be aggressive, just reacted. No matter what, I don't like to come in the house bloody. 

She doesn't show any handler aggression, just don't reach for her toy! She has gotten over most of it, but I'm also a lot more careful, and usually pick up her collar when I take the toy. Everyone has his own opinion, but I wouldn't teach mine to object guard like this one, looks like a potential problem/lawsuit to me. I would consider it a flaw in a dog, not as bad as low drive, dog aggression, or handler aggression, but not what I would like to see. All of them have a flaw of some kind, just like people.


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## Joby Becker

jim stevens said:


> Personally, I don't like the possessiveness my dog has. When I first brought her home, I wasn't on to it yet, and reached down to pick up a tug and got tagged pretty hard a couple of times. I don't think she was trying to be aggressive, just reacted. No matter what, I don't like to come in the house bloody.
> 
> She doesn't show any handler aggression, just don't reach for her toy! She has gotten over most of it, but I'm also a lot more careful, and usually pick up her collar when I take the toy. Everyone has his own opinion, but I wouldn't teach mine to object guard like this one, looks like a potential problem/lawsuit to me. I would consider it a flaw in a dog, not as bad as low drive, dog aggression, or handler aggression, but not what I would like to see. All of them have a flaw of some kind, just like people.


Jim, for the sport training, it is not a flaw, it is just how some dogs do the box revier.

possession has its uses, many of them actually, depending on who you ask, and what the dogs are expected to do and be like.

I dont consider this behavior a flaw at all, it is fairly easily taken care of, if it is not desired. If you do not want it, you do not allow it, or promote it in any way. Granted there are some dogs where it is allowed or encouraged that can become a problem, especially if handlers are transferred. can be a pain in the ass, but those handlers usually can easily manage the behavior. I do not personally know this dog or its handler but I assume that he does not have issues getting things from his dog if he wants to take them. Drop it, leave it. place, sit,heel away, down... whatever, and go pick it up. or have dog bring it to you, and present it to you.


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## Bob Scott

Joby Becker said:


> bob, in case you missed it. the box is a totally separate excercise.
> 
> that dog on the box and on the shovel, scored a 438 out of 440, in his PH1 exam, and a perfect 440 points at the nomination trial for the national championships.
> 
> The object guard is like you said, calm, focused, do the job..
> 
> the job on the box, is to find the box, bark and not eat the box while waiting for the handler to get there.



I "DO" understand the difference so my bad for the comparison! 
I still don't understand for the need of all the aggression (rage as I see it) I see with that dog. 
WHY wouldn't the same guard behavior as in a very good OG be just as effective? The only difference I see is the "find" part of the behavior. Honest question!


----------



## Nicole Stark

Bob Scott said:


> I still don't understand for the need of all the aggression (rage as I see it) I see with that dog.
> WHY wouldn't the same guard behavior as in a very good OG be just as effective? The only difference I see is the "find" part of the behavior. Honest question!


Exploitation at its finest is my guess. The excessive increase of anything generally causes a reaction in the opposite direction.


----------



## Bob Scott

Nicole Stark said:


> Exploitation at its finest is my guess. The excessive increase of anything generally causes a reaction in the opposite direction.



Similar to the American way of "bigger is better". Makes sense...I guess. :grin:


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## Marcelo Villanueva

The guard IS convincing, powerful and serious. Anything less IS LESS. Nice guarding!


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## Peter Cavallaro

Anything more than enough is?


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## Marcelo Villanueva

I don't understand why when a dog show's power and seriousness in the work it's deemed negative? 

The OG used to be about convincingly guarding an object as well as protecting it. 

Now it's a game to the dog with a weakness that lacks power, even enticing for a stranger to go and pet the chirping dog with it's tail wagging; indeed most dogs ho perform the OG are dogs calling the decoy over instead of demanding he stays away.


----------



## Marcelo Villanueva

Peter Cavallaro said:


> Anything more than enough is?


 
i believe it was said earlier that the dog recieved high awards for this type of guarding. Some (& it would appear the judges concur) still appreciate a dog that is convincing and can back up the display.


----------



## Nicole Stark

Bob Scott said:


> Similar to the American way of "bigger is better". Makes sense...I guess. :grin:


I'd hate to paint it with such a broad sweeping brush. I don't profess to know the specifics of what training goes into dogs such as this or the activities mentioned within this thread. Nor would it be fair to suggest that the bigger, the better way applies here. 

There very possibly could be a positive promotion of exploitation taking place in this type of training that enables them to achieve the best possible advantage. This certainly applies to people and resources as well.


----------



## Joby Becker

Bob Scott said:


> I "DO" understand the difference so my bad for the comparison!
> I still don't understand for the need of all the aggression (rage as I see it) I see with that dog.
> WHY wouldn't the same guard behavior as in a very good OG be just as effective? The only difference I see is the "find" part of the behavior. Honest question!


Bob NOT rage  
There may be no NEED for all the aggression, but I dont think James would have been impressed enough with the dogs guarding to post about it, without the aggression...


----------



## Marcelo Villanueva

Joby Becker said:


> Bob NOT rage
> There may be no NEED for all the aggression, but I dont think James would have been impressed enough with the dogs guarding to post about it, without the aggression...


 
Aggression = rage....call it what you want, BUT couple it with control and you have what few working handler dog teams have....power.


----------



## Joby Becker

Marcelo Villanueva said:


> Aggression = rage....call it what you want, BUT couple it with control and you have what few working handler dog teams have....power.


I agree with you.


----------



## Ellen Piepers

It's quite funny to me how in this thread some people draw all kinds of conclusions out of two video fragments of a dog they don't know, especially when some of them don't know what the objective of that exercise really is and in what ways this is usually being trained in KNPV.

I don't need to say anything about the dog nor his trainer, I suppose most know his quality. But I just want to add thatI've seen this type of behaviour in many dogs in this exercise, even if they've been trained in very different ways. I've seen it in dogs that are made crazy about the box itself by teasing, but also in dogs that are trained with a reward like a ball. Some people in KNPV don't like the "picture" of a dog trained with a ball because in the beginning they don't show the vehemence as when they get teased a lot. But I've seen that change quite rapidily, the dogs tend to build up the "rage" (or whatever you choose to call it) quite easily, if you're a little patient in the beginning. And it's not difficult to extend it to other objects either.Not because the dog really wants that particular object, but because he gets a kick out of the exercise and the barking.


----------



## Joby Becker

Ellen,

I know the dogs get a kick out of it for sure, I know its not an OG excercise but do you think that a stranger can walk up and grab that shovel or box with that dog on it like that?


----------



## Kadi Thingvall

I guess I don't understand the need for aggression in the box exercise, can someone who does KNPV explain it to me? I can totally understand aggression in an object guard exercise, where the dog is supposed to be guarding the object. I like a dog to show some possession/aggression over the object. But if the box exercise is supposed to be a "find the evidence and then let me know you found it by barking" exercise, where is the need for aggression? Wouldn't you just want a committed search and then committed barking, as in tempo and duration? Type of barking not mattering since the barking is supposed to be an alert to the handler the dog found the object.


----------



## Joby Becker

Kadi Thingvall said:


> I guess I don't understand the need for aggression in the box exercise, can someone who does KNPV explain it to me? I can totally understand aggression in an object guard exercise, where the dog is supposed to be guarding the object. I like a dog to show some possession/aggression over the object. But if the box exercise is supposed to be a "find the evidence and then let me know you found it by barking" exercise, where is the need for aggression? Wouldn't you just want a committed search and then committed barking, as in tempo and duration? Type of barking not mattering since the barking is supposed to be an alert to the handler the dog found the object.


I have no experience in that sport.

I "think" that some dogs just approach the barking like that, and like to do it, thrive on it. 

same as say in a BH. some dogs bark and some dogs enjoy the opportunity to act like a fool and show off


----------



## Marcelo Villanueva

Kadi Thingvall said:


> I guess I don't understand the need for aggression in the box exercise, can someone who does KNPV explain it to me? I can totally understand aggression in an object guard exercise, where the dog is supposed to be guarding the object. I like a dog to show some possession/aggression over the object. But if the box exercise is supposed to be a "find the evidence and then let me know you found it by barking" exercise, where is the need for aggression? Wouldn't you just want a committed search and then committed barking, as in tempo and duration? Type of barking not mattering since the barking is supposed to be an alert to the handler the dog found the object.


 
The dog is instructed by the handler to find something then only the handler is allowed to take it from the dog.


----------



## Kadi Thingvall

Marcelo Villanueva said:


> The dog is instructed by the handler to find something then only the handler is allowed to take it from the dog.


That is how I understood the exercise, but does anyone else actually attempt to take the object away from the dog? I didn't think it was an object guard, so nobody else is approaching the dog. So why the need for aggression, or is it just a style that has evolved over time, but isn't required for the exercise or points?


----------



## Marcelo Villanueva

Kadi Thingvall said:


> That is how I understood the exercise, but does anyone else actually attempt to take the object away from the dog? I didn't think it was an object guard, so nobody else is approaching the dog. So why the need for aggression, or is it just a style that has evolved over time, but isn't required for the exercise or points?


KNPV is the Dutch police dog certification program (protection & scent work). If police dog is sent to find something, the dog should convincingly display, that no one is allowed near it but its handler, especially if there are people around.


----------



## Ellen Piepers

Joby Becker said:


> Ellen,
> 
> I know the dogs get a kick out of it for sure, I know its not an OG excercise but do you think that a stranger can walk up and grab that shovel or box with that dog on it like that?


A stranger probably wouldn't try  

It is not common practice to test this in knpv training, although I suppose there could be people who do. It could even be that it would completely surprise the dog.


----------



## Ellen Piepers

Marcelo Villanueva said:


> The dog is instructed by the handler to find something then only the handler is allowed to take it from the dog.


I doubt the dog realizes that. It depends on how the dog is trained. Normally, nobody tries to take the object, the handelt and judge approach, the handler has to wait at 25 meters from the object, the judge appraches at 10 meters to check the dog is close enough to the object, and then warns the handler he can go to the dog and then heel away. He doesn't pick up the object btw.


----------



## Joby Becker

Ellen, how far is the object hidden away from the start point, from the dog? I saw somewhere it was being trained at 300 meters in a video.

Since you are familiar with the excercise can you describe how it is performed in a trial setting if you have the time...

How big is the search area, and are the dogs sent in a direction that is basically straight in the general direction of the box?

Is the box left in the same place for each dog? or moved?

Is the box in place when the dog is ready to start, or does the dog see the box with someone, and then see them walk off with it and hide it?

Does the person who hides the box enter area from different direction than the dog does?

Do the dogs "track" at all to the box? 

I find this exercise interesting, but there is little info online about it, compared to exercises in other sports, at least that I can find using english as the language anyhow...

thanks if you can help describe it some


----------



## Kadi Thingvall

Marcelo Villanueva said:


> KNPV is the Dutch police dog certification program (protection & scent work). If police dog is sent to find something, the dog should convincingly display, that no one is allowed near it but its handler, especially if there are people around.


I'm aware of what KNPV is, however your description of the exercise makes it sound like a guard of object, which it's my understanding it is not. Do you train dogs for KNPV?



Ellen Piepers said:


> I doubt the dog realizes that. It depends on how the dog is trained. Normally, nobody tries to take the object, the handelt and judge approach, the handler has to wait at 25 meters from the object, the judge appraches at 10 meters to check the dog is close enough to the object, and then warns the handler he can go to the dog and then heel away. He doesn't pick up the object btw.


So is part of the score for the exercise based on how aggressively the dog barks, or just that it's barking?


----------



## Marcelo Villanueva

Kadi Thingvall said:


> I'm aware of what KNPV is


Sorry but i have no idea what you are aware of


> Do you train dogs for KNPV?


No one outside of Holland can title in KNPV, it is specific to trials only in Holland, so i have no interest in training dogs for KNPV.


----------



## Nicole Stark

Marcelo Villanueva said:


> Sorry but i have no idea what you are aware of
> 
> No one outside of Holland can title in KNPV, it is specific to trials only in Holland, so i have no interest in training dogs for KNPV.


By outside, do you mean no one living outside of the Netherlands can title in KNPV?


----------



## Ellen Piepers

Kadi Thingvall said:


> I'm aware of what KNPV is, however your description of the exercise makes it sound like a guard of object, which it's my understanding it is not. Do you train dogs for KNPV?
> 
> 
> 
> So is part of the score for the exercise based on how aggressively the dog barks, or just that it's barking?


Just the barking, the dog must be attentive and close to the object. So there is no NEED to be agressive.


----------



## andreas broqvist

Why do they want the agretion ther? Its not à object gard. Its more of à object sertch right? What are they scored on, barking ore barking and agretion?


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## Britney Pelletier

Nicole Stark said:


> By outside, do you mean no one living outside of the Netherlands can title in KNPV?


Correct. KNPV is literally the Royal Dutch Police Dog Association. It is the pre-requisite for all of their police dogs. No one who isn't a resident of Holland can title a dog in KNPV.


----------



## Guest

Britney Pelletier said:


> Correct. KNPV is literally the Royal Dutch Police Dog Association. It is the pre-requisite for all of their police dogs. No one who isn't a resident of Holland can title a dog in KNPV.


 
Really?? Why are so many people in the US training KNPV then?? :?


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## rick smith

ditto what Jody wrote ...

..... this was copied/pasted from one such web site :

"Through special authorization and membership in the original KNPV organization in the Netherlands, Service Dog Association (SDAssoc.) has been approved to offer, without compromise, both the PH-1 & PH-2 Certificates of Capacity in the United States America. SDAssoc. functions as the umbrella organization under which PH-1 & PH-2 CoC’s may be awarded."

looks like KNPV in the USofA to me 

back to the OG that isn't really an OG 

btw, is this a behavior that a lot of PSD's are called on to perform in their work ?


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## Nicole Stark

I don't know about the SDAs role in this but I was referring to what was stated in the following link. 

http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f8/knpv-board-allows-non-european-members-now-24231/

Membership of the Royal Dutch Police Dog Association (KNPV) worldwide

On 31 March 2012, the general meeting of the KNPV has decided that in future membership of the KNPV can also be granted to citizens of countries outside the European Union. This was decided on to meet the many requests coming from non-EU countries. To become a member of the KNPV as a non-EU citizen the following (complementary) conditions have to be met:
The conditions to be met to become a member of the association are similar to those of other candidate members.
To apply for membership, an official application form is sent to the office of the KNPV, for the attention of the secretary of the KNPV.
The membership-fee and admission-fee are similar to those of other candidate members. In 2012 the membership-fee amounts to € 40. The admission-fee is a once only fee and amounts to € 20.
All correspondence is sent by email. The candidate member is therefore asked to provide an email address on the application form.
The annual member card is sent by mail to the address provided by the member.
The KNPV-magazine De Politiehond will only be send to the member on request. All postage costs have to be paid by the member.
Members can only participate in exams, examinations, and competitions in the Netherlands.
To attain membership of one of the provincial branches, the membership of one of the clubs in that province is mandatory.


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## Britney Pelletier

Jody Butler said:


> Really?? Why are so many people in the US training KNPV then?? :?



Don't get me started.


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## Britney Pelletier

rick smith said:


> ditto what Jody wrote ...
> 
> ..... this was copied/pasted from one such web site :
> 
> "Through special authorization and membership in the original KNPV organization in the Netherlands, Service Dog Association (SDAssoc.) has been approved to offer, without compromise, both the PH-1 & PH-2 Certificates of Capacity in the United States America. SDAssoc. functions as the umbrella organization under which PH-1 & PH-2 CoC’s may be awarded."
> 
> looks like KNPV in the USofA to me


LOL.. I'd love to see the website, Rick. I can assure you, this has never happened, and most likely never will.


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## Joby Becker

http://www.servicedogassociation.com/knpvnlknpvusacom.html

never got off the ground I do not think, not sure about sanctioning either...

you can compete though, if you are a member, and go to Holland, I think anyways.....


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## Britney Pelletier

Joby Becker said:


> http://www.servicedogassociation.com/knpvnlknpvusacom.html
> 
> never got off the ground I do not think, not sure about sanctioning either...
> 
> you can compete though, if you are a member, and go to Holland, I think anyways.....



You're right, Joby! I was mistaken.. it's just not something people tend to do. I do know of one person from the US that did go and compete in a trial many years ago.


That above listed organization.. I have no comment, and we'll leave it at that. ;-)


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## Rik Wolterbeek

Last February I was asked at a seminar why people from the USA could not become a member of KNPV. I did not know the answer to that and asked an old friend in Holland about it. He told me that he would try to find out for me. A couple weeks later he told me that he asked and found out that KNPV was going to propose at the general membership meeting to allow people from out side the European Union to become a member of KNPV. The day the general membership meeting decided to OK the proposal from the KNPV board my friend told me about it.
I received an email from the 1st secretary of the KNPV on July 4th which I copy and paste here.
""""" Geachte heer Wolterbeek,

Naar aanleiding van uw mail van 16 februari 2012 aan de heer Mast, kan ik U thans mededelen, dat ook mensen uit landen buiten de Europese Unie lid kunnen worden van de KNPV. Voor wat betreft het voorbrengen van een hond voor de keuring geldt hetzelfde met de restrictie, dat keuringen en wedstrijden in Nederland worden gehouden.
Op de website staat inmiddels ook de informatie over het lid worden voor buitenlandse leden. Het inschrijfformulier wordt in de komende tijd in ook meerdere talen op de website gezet.
Mochten er nog vragen zijn, dat hoor ik dit graag.

Met vriendelijke groeten,
Namens het hoofdbestuur,
Sjef van den Boomen
1e secretaris."""""""

In short it confirms what I heard from my friend, anybody in the world can become a KNPV member and train KNPV. You do have to go to Holland for trails and certification.

I know for a fact that (then my wife) Dianne SanLorenzo went in 1996 to Holland and titled her DS female Sonja for her KNPV title PH1. Sonja was imported at 14 months old as a good prospect for KNPV training. Sonja already had quite some training on her and I helped her decoying/coaching for almost 2 years and we then went to Holland and put a KNPV title PH1 on her. She is as far as I know the only US citizen who titled a dog in Holland for a PH1 certificate. 

SDA is a joke or scam if you will. I checked and got confirmed from a good friend in Holland that there is no connection at all between SDA and KNPV. Cedric Merlet, the guy on the first page of SDA (http://www.servicedogassociation.com/knpvnlknpvusacom.html) does not show up on the list of KNPV certified regional and National decoys published every year in April in the KNPV magazine.

Lastly if I have the time I will try to explain in detail the difference between the "revier" exercises for both an object and person (in Dutch: voorwerp/man revieren) and the "odbject guard" ( in Dutch: voorwerp bewaken).

Rik


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## Britney Pelletier

Rik Wolterbeek said:


> In short it confirms what I heard from my friend, anybody in the world can become a KNPV member and train KNPV. You do have to go to Holland for trails and certification.
> 
> I know for a fact that (then my wife) Dianne SanLorenzo went in 1996 to Holland and titled her DS female Sonja for her KNPV title PH1. Sonja was imported at 14 months old as a good prospect for KNPV training. Sonja already had quite some training on her and I helped her decoying/coaching for almost 2 years and we then went to Holland and put a KNPV title PH1 on her. She is as far as I know the only US citizen who titled a dog in Holland for a PH1 certificate.
> 
> SDA is a joke or scam if you will. I checked and got confirmed from a good friend in Holland that there is no connection at all between SDA and KNPV. Cedric Merlet, the guy on the first page of SDA (http://www.servicedogassociation.com/knpvnlknpvusacom.html) does not show up on the list of KNPV certified regional and National decoys published every year in April in the KNPV magazine.
> 
> Lastly if I have the time I will try to explain in detail the difference between the "revier" exercises for both an object and person (in Dutch: voorwerp/man revieren) and the "odbject guard" ( in Dutch: voorwerp bewaken).
> 
> Rik



Thanks so much for the confirmation, Rik! Dianne is exactly who I was thinking of 


PS. I did give Onno your regards!


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## Nicole Stark

Rik Wolterbeek said:


> I know for a fact that (then my wife) Dianne SanLorenzo went in 1996 to Holland and titled her DS female Sonja for her KNPV title PH1. Sonja was imported at 14 months old as a good prospect for KNPV training. Sonja already had quite some training on her and I helped her decoying/coaching for almost 2 years and we then went to Holland and put a KNPV title PH1 on her. She is as far as I know the only US citizen who titled a dog in Holland for a PH1 certificate.
> Rik


That sounds like a rather special accomplishment. I wonder with this new change how many outside of the Netherlands will have the resources to take advantage of being able to make an attempt at titling their dogs.


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## Kadi Thingvall

Ellen Piepers said:


> Just the barking, the dog must be attentive and close to the object. So there is no NEED to be agressive.


Thank you.


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## Connie Sutherland

Marcelo Villanueva said:


> Aggression = rage....call it what you want, BUT couple it with control and you have what few working handler dog teams have....power.




Marcelo, a member bio/intro is required here. Please post that before posting again.

http://www.WorkingDogForum.com/vBulletin/f20/

Sorry we missed reminding you earlier.

Thank you.


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## Christopher Smith

Nicole Stark said:


> I wonder with this new change how many outside of the Netherlands will have the resources to take advantage of being able to make an attempt at titling their dogs.


 That's going to be one of the top of the charts excuses for sure.


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## Rik Wolterbeek

Ellen Piepers said:


> Just the barking, the dog must be attentive and close to the object. So there is no NEED to be agressive.


That basically says it all.


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