# Titles



## Harry Keely

How many people think if the dog does not have a title then its not a good dog and should not be bred solely on the fact of not havin one?

I could care less about a title, I look at every dog as a idvidual ( of course x-rays and genetics are a part, and a clean bill of health ), I know to many non titled dogs that put titles and dogs with titles to shame.

I wonder how many views there will be versus responses..............


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## Steve Estrada

I'm likely stepping in it now, but I breed untitled dogs but usually with titled dog.
I always know what my untitled dog is capable both positive & negative. I haven't found the perfect dog yet, plus I'm foursquare in what I'm breeding.(purpose) I don't always get it but then I've learned something. I won't keep a dog that doesn't meet my needs, but I know where it goes and with who. I believe the titles "can" prove a lot but I don't believe in breeding just because they are, same applies to pedigree, many, many ingredients go into my cake.....


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## Harry Keely

Steve Estrada said:


> I'm likely stepping in it now, but I breed untitled dogs but usually with titled dog.
> I always know what my untitled dog is capable both positive & negative. I haven't found the perfect dog yet, plus I'm foursquare in what I'm breeding.(purpose) I don't always get it but then I've learned something. I won't keep a dog that doesn't meet my needs, but I know where it goes and with who. I believe the titles "can" prove a lot but I don't believe in breeding just because they are, same applies to pedigree, many, many ingredients go into my cake.....


OK, thanks for responding, I am just kinda look at peoples trains of thinking, I expect this thread to fly of the handle especially with the hard core sports folks, I could be wrong though and just assuming.


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## Brian Anderson

That is a long standing battle ground topic Harry LOL... 

A good dog is a good dog..a good dog with a title is still a good dog.


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## Harry Keely

Brian Anderson said:


> That is a long standing battle ground topic Harry LOL...
> 
> A good dog is a good dog..a good dog with a title is still a good dog.


I know, and I figured I got some time so I would stir for some info and thoughts. Come tuesday I will return to reality and not have much time for nothing again.


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## Edward Egan

I think the vast majority of people looking for a sport pup want a dog breed from sport dogs. Therefore breeders want their dogs to have titles to meet this demand, and as a marketing tool for pet homes.

Some people will look at pups from untitled parents if they can see the parents work and believe they can pick a sport dog from the litter.


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## Harry Keely

Edward Egan said:


> I think the vast majority of people looking for a sport pup want a dog breed from sport dogs. Therefore breeders want their dogs to have titles to meet this demand, and as a marketing tool for pet homes.
> 
> Some people will look at pups from untitled parents if they can see the parents work and believe they can pick a sport dog from the litter.


OK so what and how does a title change a dogs genetic make up and natural capabilities to be a dog that could get titled if the person so wish to do that with there pup. Many of dogs with no titles on both parents have produce dogs alot more serious than a sport dog as well as only one parent having a title and the other not.

I am not knocking titles I am just curious to how peoples brains are wired lately to what I have been reading from differing folks.


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## Joby Becker

I just bred a bitch that was not titled. She was bred to a titled male.
Titles do not mean a whole lot to me, but I do see the values in them..

By the time I breed her again, most likely she will still not be titled, as I am not training for one currently.

The next time I breed her, it may be to a titled male, but I am also seriously contemplating breeding her with a working policedog, who I do not believe is titled, but I could be wrong on that.

Again I think titling is great, and does say something about the dog, I cannot see anything wrong with titling obviously, but if I breed a dog that I like, or breed to a dog I like, a title does not change the genetics...

I recently took flack for breeding an untitled bitch as well, from someone who has never even met my dog. said she feels sorry for my dog, because I never do anything with her, which is not true...I just am not that much into the sport thing, didnt have the passion for it...

It is something else that I believe helps PROVE something to others more than anyhting else...and shows a training commitment for the handler/breeder...If I titled my dog, I don't think that it would improve her worth as a breeding dog for me personally, or the people that may want a pup out of her, I do think it would make me and her look better to people that might buy pups based on titles... 

it probably depends on a lot of factors, breed and what purpose people are buying pups for..as to how important it is to them...

there are lots of people that own dogs of the type or breeding my dog is out of that do not title the bitches...I would venture to say that the vast majority are not titled..but then again most of the dogs produced are not produced with sport as the main focus...


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## Britney Pelletier

Harry,

You should provide some of your insight on the PSA forum instead of just lurking and then posting topics from that forum onto this one..


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## Edward Egan

Harry Keely said:


> OK so what and how does a title change a dogs genetic make up and natural capabilities to be a dog that could get titled if the person so wish to do that with there pup. Many of dogs with no titles on both parents have produce dogs alot more serious than a sport dog as well as only one parent having a title and the other not.
> 
> I am not knocking titles I am just curious to how peoples brains are wired lately to what I have been reading from differing folks.


I didn't say anything about the dogs abilities. Have no idea were that came from.


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## Harry Keely

Britney Pelletier said:


> Harry,
> 
> You should provide some of your insight on the PSA forum instead of just lurking and then posting topics from that forum onto this one..


and get attacked by a mod or stupid immature comments by that mod for how I word a advertisement, no thanks Britney, I stick to just posting ads there.

FYI I respect certain folks on there and if your interested in who that MOD is I will be glad to, but not getting into a pissing match. whats your feelings on titles being that we got you here?

Anybody from there is more than welcome to post here though I am sure.

And I havent being doing alot of posting but am kinda wondering how peoples minds are hard wired so figured I play until tuesday rolls back around along with reality.


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## Britney Pelletier

LOL.. no worries, I think I'm well aware of to whom you may be referring. :-\"


Without getting too involved, my simplified explanation is that though people often breed untitled dogs that produce nice working dogs, there are too many people breeding dogs to begin with. If I am looking for a puppy, I need some minimum standards by which I go about my search for one. Health clearances and titles are a good starting point.. to me, it shows breeders who are willing to put time, money and effort into training their dogs to showcase their abilities. It also, in a very simple form, atleast shows some proof of breed-worthiness in the dog. I may be a bit biased because I train and title my dogs, and the limited breeding I do is between titled dogs. :wink:


I am a firm believer that a title does not necessarily indicate a nice dog, but that nice dogs should be titled.


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## Anita Griffing

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nORH04lek04

Titles are good because this is what you get when people
are left to their own devices. These people think these
dogs are the perfect example of the GSD. Just sayin. 


Anita


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## Harry Keely

Britney Pelletier said:


> LOL.. no worries, I think I'm well aware of to whom you may be referring. :-\"
> 
> 
> Without getting too involved, my simplified explanation is that though people often breed untitled dogs that produce nice working dogs, there are too many people breeding dogs to begin with. If I am looking for a puppy, I need some minimum standards by which I go about my search for one. Health clearances and titles are a good starting point.. to me, it shows breeders who are willing to put time, money and effort into training their dogs to showcase their abilities. It also, in a very simple form, atleast shows some proof of breed-worthiness in the dog. I may be a bit biased because I train and title my dogs, and the limited breeding I do is between titled dogs. :wink:
> 
> 
> I am a firm believer that a title does not necessarily indicate a nice dog, but that nice dogs should be titled.





Anita Griffing said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nORH04lek04
> 
> Titles are good because this is what you get when people
> are left to their own devices. These people think these
> dogs are the perfect example of the GSD. Just sayin.
> 
> 
> Anita


OK you ladies kinda seem to be on the same page, soooooo in saying that let me ask this to the both of you, do you think just because a dog has a title does it mean its breed worthy, I do not no matter the title, I still think a dog needs to be based on its own virtual abilities and down falls if any.


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## Britney Pelletier

Harry Keely said:


> OK you ladies kinda seem to be on the same page, soooooo in saying that let me ask this to the both of you, do you think just because a dog has a title does it mean its breed worthy, I do not no matter the title, I still think a dog needs to be based on its own virtual abilities and down falls if any.


Nope, I agree.. I do not think just because a dog is titled (regardless of what it's titled in) it should be bred. I have seen some absolutely horrendous examples of dogs (GSD, DS, Malinois, Doberman or otherwise) that were titled to the maximum level in their chosen sport and they were terrible representations of that particular breed, as well as terrible representations of a working dog in general.

I think titles are a good place to start, but I always like to get to know a dog as intimately as I can before using it for breeding, whether it's one of my own girls or a potential stud for them.


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## James Downey

A title in actual value to making puppies, is nil. A pair of titled dogs would produce the same pups, if they were not titled. That's pretty obvious. I say that becauseI do run into folks that take a ethical view of breeding non-titled dogs. They literally believe that a breeder who uses a non-titled dog is doing something unethical. And I mean they are passionate about this, like your breeding 2 dogs that have known bad hips. I guess the argument is the dogs have not proved themselves. And I guess a breeder could welcome comments that maybe the dogs are not able to titles, but were bred anyway? And I think this is the maybe the suspicion some people develop if they see a breeding where the dog's have no documented accomplishments to thier name. 

Now, As a breeder who has done 2 pairings but whelped only one litter. I did find it necassary to use a dog that I not only liked, and thought would produce good pups. But I had to use a dog that people would not think was bullshit. One of the tools I have at my disposal would be using a successful dog, with not only titles, but success amongst the ranks. Since I do not have a track record of any kind, I had to give the breeding some crediability some how. And I think titles, and success at high levels can give that...not always true, but it can be. Because the fact of the matter is: If I do not want to end up with a yard full of dogs from the same litter. I have to provide some proof that the dogs I am breeding are not bullshit. Now, I think a breeder whom has a reputation of not breeding bullshit can get away with using dogs that do not have titles and still have solid interest. I wish it were not a factor in my dog selection. But I had to exclude dogs that although good, if they did not have any creds. they were not an option. 

So for me, I find no actual determent to making good pairings with untitled dogs. I think I have enough of an idea to notice a good dog when I see one. But like I said does not matter what I think. It matters what the buyer thinks, that is if I want to move the pups. And I know what the purest are thinking you should never compromise... And that's true. But limiting yout selection to smaller criteria is not compromising. There are good dogs that have titles to choose from. I still wanted and expected good puppies.

So that's what titles do for me. They provide some documented crediablity. And it's not the end all be all crediability. It just gives a clue that I took some time and care in choosing the dogs I did.

And there are untitled dogs out there, that I think are exceptional and I would want to use.


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## brad robert

Anita Griffing said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nORH04lek04
> 
> Titles are good because this is what you get when people
> are left to their own devices. These people think these
> dogs are the perfect example of the GSD. Just sayin.
> 
> 
> Anita


 
Exactly.I think titleing a dog opens it up for others eyes to see just not some with kennel blinkers on


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## Harry Keely

James Downey said:


> A title in actual value to making puppies, is nil. A pair of titled dogs would produce the same pups, if they were not titled. That's pretty obvious. I say that becauseI do run into folks that take a ethical view of breeding non-titled dogs. They literally believe that a breeder who uses a non-titled dog is doing something unethical. And I mean they are passionate about this, like your breeding 2 dogs that have known bad hips. I guess the argument is the dogs have not proved themselves. And I guess a breeder could welcome comments that maybe the dogs are not able to titles, but were bred anyway? And I think this is the maybe the suspicion some people develop if they see a breeding where the dog's have no documented accomplishments to thier name.
> 
> Now, As a breeder who has done 2 pairings but whelped only one litter. I did find it necassary to use a dog that I not only liked, and thought would produce good pups. But I had to use a dog that people would not think was bullshit. One of the tools I have at my disposal would be using a successful dog, with not only titles, but success amongst the ranks. Since I do not have a track record of any kind, I had to give the breeding some crediability some how. And I think titles, and success at high levels can give that...not always true, but it can be. Because the fact of the matter is: If I do not want to end up with a yard full of dogs from the same litter. I have to provide some proof that the dogs I am breeding are not bullshit. Now, I think a breeder whom has a reputation of not breeding bullshit can get away with using dogs that do not have titles and still have solid interest. I wish it were not a factor in my dog selection. But I had to exclude dogs that although good, if they did not have any creds. they were not an option.
> 
> So for me, I find no actual determent to making good pairings with untitled dogs. I think I have enough of an idea to notice a good dog when I see one. But like I said does not matter what I think. It matters what the buyer thinks, that is if I want to move the pups. And I know what the purest are thinking you should never compromise... And that's true. But limiting yout selection to smaller criteria is not compromising. There are good dogs that have titles to choose from. I still wanted and expected good puppies.
> 
> So that's what titles do for me. They provide some documented crediablity. And it's not the end all be all crediability. It just gives a clue that I took some time and care in choosing the dogs I did.
> 
> And there are untitled dogs out there, that I think are exceptional and I would want to use.


gotcha, gotcha


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## Harry Keely

brad robert said:


> Exactly.I think titleing a dog opens it up for others eyes to see just not some with kennel blinkers on


you care to go into further detail on your insights of this please brad in titles vs no titles and why?


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## Bob Scott

Not a breeder, never will be but if the dog has a title I want to know who, what, when and where. 
Without a title I want to see the dog.


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## James Downey

And when it comes to females. If your going to create lines. It's going to be tough to breed and title the females. Because if you wanna create your own line, your most likely going to have breed the same females mulitple times. And by trialing the girls, you run the risk of injuring them, and maybe ending there breeding career...now you have a female you cannot trial or breed. Now I titled my female, but breeding her was not considered till she was a 2. and then I was just considering it. 

Another thought. I am always jealous of the dogs that are great in such close proximity to each other in Europe. I think that thier breeding culutre, especially for Malinois maybe some what accelerated compared to the U.S. because people can easily travel a short distance see many good dogs, make their own assessment of the dog and use them for breeding long before they may get titles or have success. They know what they are looking at a successful dog, before it's a successful dog. Or if the dog is great and the training sucks, they still use the dog because they know and everyone sees what the breeder sees. And thus they have an accumlated advantage in breeding just due to the fact thier are so many dogs in a smaller geographical area and they do not have these trival self-righteous rules the impose on themselves. Being in the states I am in MI. I have videos, pedigrees, word of mouth and maybe I get to see the dog at a big trial if they live on the other coast from me. And that's the information I may have for a breeding. And I am lucky in the fact I move for my job every 4 years so I get to see more dogs than most in different parts of the country.

I think sometimes we put ourselves at a big disadvantage by trying to be self-righteous about the dogs we breed. " I only breed titled dogs with titled dogs" " the females should be titlled"... " the scores should be there".... Add whatever cute little breeding slogan you want. Because all that really matters in the end is: the pups...the end all be all to decided if a breeding was good or not: is the pups. What I really think people are trying to do is stave off any judgement that they maybe or are BYB, puppy mill or just an otherwise shitty breeder. 

and lets be honest at least in terms of IPO, A lot of great dogs lack the training to get good scores. So, they look like shit on paper. The amount of dog it takes to get an IPO3 can be a very mediocre dog. So the dogs we limit ourselves to is only good dogs, with good training. When there are good dogs out there, with good genes that are dismissed because they have not gotten that precious 3 on them. Because IPO 100% thoroughly is more critical of the training than it is the dog. 

I bred my dog the first time to Lupano's Duke when she had her 2 on her. I did an A.I. With one of the greatest producing Malinois in the last 10 years and the dog lives in Germany. People's critiism on the breeding....the female only has a 2 on her. That was thier thinking, and they had never seen the female before. But the lack of the 3 freaked them out. I mean that's how bad people limit themselves here. Then I bred her after she did get her 3 to a dog that had one litter prior that produced one pup. The dog was world championship top 10 quality. No one said a word about the female...same dog.


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## brad robert

Harry Keely said:


> you care to go into further detail on your insights of this please brad in titles vs no titles and why?


 Harry im not completely narrow minded on this but i think titles have served a very useful purpose till now and will continue to do so.Im always cautious of untitled dogs unless the dog has really been checked by people in the know, and have to admit if putting a title on a dog was neccessary there would be a lot less breedings taking place.Over here basically all you need to do is xray your stock and away you go which is a bit scary.
I know that in some circumstances a dog wont be titled it might be a working PD or service dog and i think that dog has deserved its right to be bred if it has what you want.

Like i said to not be narrow minded these are working dogs after all, and to be honest over here there is just bugger all clubs and a title and training can be financially not viable there is alot of breedings being done with untitled dogs but the good breedings being done are dogs that are tested by known trainers and international helpers who have titled dogs or had a lot to do with training for many years THAT i am comfortable with also these dogs not only being great have superb genetics i personally might not buy one but i still think great dogs are being bred this way.As you can see it has alot to do with where you live as well and whats available to you.JMO


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## Chad Sloan

My favorite bitch prefers Princess to Mrs.


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## Adi Ibrahimbegovic

Yes, when you can see the dog in person and know what you are looking at. Titles are like human titles, a doctor, architect etc... it doesn't tell me if the guy is an asshole, or funny, or smart, or friendly or scared in the dark or any number of things you can discover in person etc... it just says it has a certain title.



Harry Keely said:


> How many people think if the dog does not have a title then its not a good dog and should not be bred solely on the fact of not havin one?
> 
> I could care less about a title, I look at every dog as a idvidual ( of course x-rays and genetics are a part, and a clean bill of health ), I know to many non titled dogs that put titles and dogs with titles to shame.
> 
> I wonder how many views there will be versus responses..............


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## Brian Anderson

Im like Bob except I want to see the dog regardless of title. These days there are lots of weak ass dogs with titles. Because a dog isn't sporting a title doesn't back me up a bit.


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## manny rose

They mean they like buying their competition dogs from those who compete! Sorta like when you want good food you go to a good resteraunt. If you want hire a plumber you usually hire a certified plumber, and so onand so on. Im mean pf coure there are guys who r expert at plumbing but did not attend school and get certified. But to increase their chances for work they would get certified...or work off word of mouthright? Not to hard tounderstand really. But i guess if your the uncertified plumber looking for work, you may feel a certain way about being told they want a certified plumber even though you know you can do the job.. So in other words train and tittle your breeding dogs to showcase their skills or lack of. Now a days too many people buy a dog from overseas with no tittles off of great lineage and think that everyone should jump on ot...but we all know every dog or breeding for that matter does not produce the same. So you need tobreed that untittled dog and sell pups to those who will work and tittle said dogs in whatever venues at least to make people beleivers! Many are buying dogs from great lines and thinking knowledgable people are just going for the crap shoot.... Anybody doing anything worth paying attention is covering all bases... You can buy a lamborghini...but that dont make you a rave car driver! Thats my thought on it... Not that it matters much


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## Britney Pelletier

James Downey said:


> And when it comes to females. If your going to create lines. It's going to be tough to breed and title the females. Because if you wanna create your own line, your most likely going to have breed the same females mulitple times. And by trialing the girls, you run the risk of injuring them, and maybe ending there breeding career...now you have a female you cannot trial or breed. Now I titled my female, but breeding her was not considered till she was a 2. and then I was just considering it.
> 
> Another thought. I am always jealous of the dogs that are great in such close proximity to each other in Europe. I think that thier breeding culutre, especially for Malinois maybe some what accelerated compared to the U.S. because people can easily travel a short distance see many good dogs, make their own assessment of the dog and use them for breeding long before they may get titles or have success. They know what they are looking at a successful dog, before it's a successful dog. Or if the dog is great and the training sucks, they still use the dog because they know and everyone sees what the breeder sees. And thus they have an accumlated advantage in breeding just due to the fact thier are so many dogs in a smaller geographical area and they do not have these trival self-righteous rules the impose on themselves. Being in the states I am in MI. I have videos, pedigrees, word of mouth and maybe I get to see the dog at a big trial if they live on the other coast from me. And that's the information I may have for a breeding. And I am lucky in the fact I move for my job every 4 years so I get to see more dogs than most in different parts of the country.
> 
> I think sometimes we put ourselves at a big disadvantage by trying to be self-righteous about the dogs we breed. " I only breed titled dogs with titled dogs" " the females should be titlled"... " the scores should be there".... Add whatever cute little breeding slogan you want. Because all that really matters in the end is: the pups...the end all be all to decided if a breeding was good or not: is the pups. What I really think people are trying to do is stave off any judgement that they maybe or are BYB, puppy mill or just an otherwise shitty breeder.
> 
> and lets be honest at least in terms of IPO, A lot of great dogs lack the training to get good scores. So, they look like shit on paper. The amount of dog it takes to get an IPO3 can be a very mediocre dog. So the dogs we limit ourselves to is only good dogs, with good training. When there are good dogs out there, with good genes that are dismissed because they have not gotten that precious 3 on them. Because IPO 100% thoroughly is more critical of the training than it is the dog.
> 
> I bred my dog the first time to Lupano's Duke when she had her 2 on her. I did an A.I. With one of the greatest producing Malinois in the last 10 years and the dog lives in Germany. People's critiism on the breeding....the female only has a 2 on her. That was thier thinking, and they had never seen the female before. But the lack of the 3 freaked them out. I mean that's how bad people limit themselves here. Then I bred her after she did get her 3 to a dog that had one litter prior that produced one pup. The dog was world championship top 10 quality. No one said a word about the female...same dog.


VERY well said, James! Couldn't agree with you more. :-D

Though, I do think it's pretty absurd that people questioned your breeding because your female only had a 2.. people routinely breed bitches that only have 1's all the time.. myself included. People also breed untitled dogs more often than that. Is it because she is a Malinois? Because that is the breed that is MOST predominantly bred without titles!


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## Sara Waters

Personaly I dont care about titles or trial results when looking for a good dog to work sheep. I am way more interested in watching the breeders dogs work sheep in real situations, their dogs reputations among other graziers, their experience as a stockman and their knowledge about what they are breeding for. 

Neither do I care about titles when looking for prospective agility dog. I find many of the working bred dogs that I look at as prospective sheepdogs also fit the bill nicely as agility dogs. Some of our top agility and obedience dogs come from these working lines.


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## shawn murace

My view of titles went away years ago when I attended a Sieger show and later worked some of these dogs. The title and its results tell more of the trainer than the dog as far as Im concerned.


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## Anita Griffing

Sara Waters said:


> Personaly I dont care about titles or trial results when looking for a good dog to work sheep. I am way more interested in watching the breeders dogs work sheep in real situations, their dogs reputations among other graziers, their experience as a stockman and their knowledge about what they are breeding for.
> 
> Neither do I care about titles when looking for prospective agility dog. I find many of the working bred dogs that I look at as prospective sheepdogs also fit the bill nicely as agility dogs. Some of our top agility and obedience dogs come from these working lines.


If everyone really knew what they were looking for when picking a dog, or took the time
to learn about their respective sport and searched around for breeders that were succesful,
and asked the right questions; there wouldn't be a need for standards. There wouldn't
be a need for speed limits if everyone was a responsible driver. Unfortunately,
you won't find a breeder that says, "yea I breed crap dogs and I really don't know what
I am doing." Almost ALL breeders think their dogs are great and think they are helping
the breed. "I don't need OFA I know what I am doing. I know what a powerful dog is. I know
what great structure is. I know my dog would be a ScH 3 national competitor if I had the
time. I am in the booneys I can't title my dog. The judges don't know what they are doing anyway.
Crap dogs are titled, too.... Mine are real not just those silly sport dogs." 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DEN5S893yMU Again, these people think they are doing the right 
thing. If you don't follow a standard then where do we draw the line, anything goes.
Anita


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## Harry Keely

Edward Egan said:


> I didn't say anything about the dogs abilities. Have no idea were that came from.


Sorry was not trying to be rude, maybe I wasnt clear enough for ya, What I was asking is do you feel that a title changes the genetic make up of the parents which would then effect the puppies?


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## Joby Becker

Anita Griffing said:


> If everyone really knew what they were looking for when picking a dog, or took the time
> to learn about their respective sport and searched around for breeders that were succesful,
> and asked the right questions; there wouldn't be a need for standards. There wouldn't
> be a need for speed limits if everyone was a responsible driver. Unfortunately,
> you won't find a breeder that says, "yea I breed crap dogs and I really don't know what
> I am doing." Almost ALL breeders think their dogs are great and think they are helping
> the breed. "I don't need OFA I know what I am doing. I know what a powerful dog is. I know
> what great structure is. I know my dog would be a ScH 3 national competitor if I had the
> time. I am in the booneys I can't title my dog. The judges don't know what they are doing anyway.
> Crap dogs are titled, too.... Mine are real not just those silly sport dogs."
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DEN5S893yMU Again, these people think they are doing the right
> thing. If you don't follow a standard then where do we draw the line, anything goes.
> Anita


The problem is also this...there are also many people that are doing what is done in your video examples, that DO title the dogs as well. SO if you do not like those dogs in the videos, but the owner then eeks out a title in their club trial, with their club helper, and a judge that may not be very strict, does that then mean the dogs are better???

One of the clubs I go to is filled with show people, that also try to get titles, and some do...these are the same people that snap a picture of their dog doing a shitty bark and hold, and toss it on the website...


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## Britney Pelletier

shawn murace said:


> My view of titles went away years ago when I attended a Sieger show and later worked some of these dogs. The title and its results tell more of the trainer than the dog as far as Im concerned.


FWIW, Shawn, dogs at a Sieger show are also a completely different "type" of dog.. they belong in their own category, as far as I'm concerned. I have seen nary a Showline GSD that I would actually own, nevermind use to reproduce. Thus, I tend to disagree about titling being more about the handler's abilities than the dog, though I understand where you're coming from.


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## Edward Egan

Harry Keely said:


> Sorry was not trying to be rude, maybe I wasnt clear enough for ya, What I was asking is do you feel that a title changes the genetic make up of the parents which would then effect the puppies?


Really, a piece of paper changing a dogs genetic's? And no I don't believe training changes it either, but focuses the genetic traits into a job.


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## Harry Keely

Edward Egan said:


> Really, a piece of paper changing a dogs genetic's? And no I don't believe training changes it either, but focuses the genetic traits into a job.


Was just asking, I am sure there is idiots out there that think so;-), although you did give me a idea for another thread#-o


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## Martine Loots

Who cares about titles... I prefer to judge "the dog" and not the "product" thanks to good training.
Observe a dog many times during training tells you a lot more. Knowing the handler and his way of training and putting pressure also is very important (would say as important as the performance of the dog).
One and the same dog can make a totally different impression in the hands of a certain handler compared to with another one.


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## Harry Keely

Martine Loots said:


> Who cares about titles... I prefer to judge "the dog" and not the "product" thanks to good training.
> Observe a dog many times during training tells you a lot more. Knowing the handler and his way of training and putting pressure also is very important (would say as important as the performance of the dog).
> One and the same dog can make a totally different impression in the hands of a certain handler compared to with another one.


yup, very true, and this is ideal to do if you can make it happen.


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## Harry Keely

I am really starting to believe that people think for some odd odd reason that titles will improve the chances of the puppies being something, like a title alters the genetic strands of semen in a dog. this is something I see and have heard in so many words of a long period of time. Titles are great but not the answer to your puppy prayers. Once again just for the record I have bought pups out of both situations and some were better than others but none if it I would chalk up to a parent having a title.

Putting a title on your dog is a past time folks, a hobby another words that some have gone over board on and have turned into a extreme over the top obsession of propaganda put in your heads by way to many folks ( please i am not saying that this applies to all sport folks, but you all know of someone like this  ).

Certification is a working job such as a patrol dog, detection dog, service dog, military dog, etc....... not taking away from one or another just pointing out the facts.


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## Sara Waters

Anita Griffing said:


> If everyone really knew what they were looking for when picking a dog, or took the time
> to learn about their respective sport and searched around for breeders that were succesful,
> and asked the right questions; there wouldn't be a need for standards. There wouldn't
> be a need for speed limits if everyone was a responsible driver. Unfortunately,
> you won't find a breeder that says, "yea I breed crap dogs and I really don't know what
> I am doing." Almost ALL breeders think their dogs are great and think they are helping
> the breed. "I don't need OFA I know what I am doing. I know what a powerful dog is. I know
> what great structure is. I know my dog would be a ScH 3 national competitor if I had the
> time. I am in the booneys I can't title my dog. The judges don't know what they are doing anyway.
> Crap dogs are titled, too.... Mine are real not just those silly sport dogs."
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DEN5S893yMU Again, these people think they are doing the right
> thing. If you don't follow a standard then where do we draw the line, anything goes.
> Anita


Hi Anita, I guess in our working sheepdog trials, we dont have titles, just the glory of winning events of getting the points to be open dog of the year. Over here the ANKC are the only ones that hand out titles and their trials are very different from the working sheep dog trials. We have a number of breeders who purpose breed their dogs for the type of terrain and work the dog is required to do an this is not easily tested in trial conditions which involve pushing 3 sheep round a course and yarding a few sheep (not easy I grant you, but very different to what is expected of most sheep dogs on farm). Word of mouth by serious graziers will make or break these dogs and this is reflected in the money handed out for various lines on the auction floor. It is very removed from the world of trialing.

As to agility most top handlers will pick up working dogs from the same breeders if they are willing to let their dogs go to agility homes - mainly Border collies and it would seem to me the the top handlers seem to consistently trrain excellent dogs and title them far faster than any of us more average joes, regardless of where our dogs come from.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

For a herding dog, I'd rather see the dog green, without too much training. If its an experienced dog, show me what he does around the farm and I can see how he relates to his stock. Titles only mean there was a trainer and they put in the miles and the money. I've learned not to assume much of anything based on a title. But that said, I do hate to see folks pimping working pedigrees. People advertise that they breed working dogs. But they don't work dogs. They bought sire/dam who had working titled parents and three generations later they still haven't worked anything or trained anything. Someone mentioned standard. You have to ask yourself if the trial system test for the same level of work under the same conditions that you will need the dog to perform. As Sara said, trial system uses three sheep. Can what you see the dog do with three in a small pen tell you what he can do with 100, 1000 over vast acreage? We don't have the club culture that Europe has where you can travel and see the dogs in training. So breeding to the title is all there is unless you have contacts that can give an opinion. But really in the working world, I want the breeders to be trainers. If that's impossible, then spend a helluva lot of time observing and have someone that can test/demo the dogs.

T


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## brad robert

Harry Keely said:


> I am really starting to believe that people think for some odd odd reason that titles will improve the chances of the puppies being something, like a title alters the genetic strands of semen in a dog. this is something I see and have heard in so many words of a long period of time. Titles are great but not the answer to your puppy prayers. Once again just for the record I have bought pups out of both situations and some were better than others but none if it I would chalk up to a parent having a title.
> 
> Putting a title on your dog is a past time folks, a hobby another words that some have gone over board on and have turned into a extreme over the top obsession of propaganda put in your heads by way to many folks ( please i am not saying that this applies to all sport folks, but you all know of someone like this  ).
> 
> Certification is a working job such as a patrol dog, detection dog, service dog, military dog, etc....... not taking away from one or another just pointing out the facts.


Harry i dont think people seriously think a title helps your chance of getting a good pup.I just think when certified working dogs PD etc are not common to breed to well at least here there not a title gives you something that slightly resembles this.??? And shows work ability, trainability a dog that can handle stress of all sorts including hours of training.


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## Harry Keely

brad robert said:


> Harry i dont think people seriously think a title helps your chance of getting a good pup.I just think when certified working dogs PD etc are not common to breed to well at least here there not a title gives you something that slightly resembles this.??? And shows work ability, trainability a dog that can handle stress of all sorts including hours of training.


I am having a hard time trying to understand what your saying or if a question, sorry Brad. Maybe write it differently or re-write it, sorry to be a pain.


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## Daniel Lybbert

I would say that a Ring 3 dog that went to the Selectiff(I can only speak for FR its all I know) Is at least a starting point to look at the dog himself. Do I think that the title makes the dog better? Of course not. It is a good starting point. I saw dogs in the selectiff that I didnt like at all. I saw dogs at the cup that werent my favorite either.(I saw some that would knock your socks off too) But it is a starting point.
All a certification or a title means is that you or an animal has met a minimum requirment. A PHD is still a doctor. Some are better than others. I woulnt let a yoho work on my heart. I would want to see a title to start with. 
A good dog is a good dog. A good dog with a bunch of titles is a ledgend. Look at Us'Ton 

The title should be what I want the dog for. Not really interested in a show title


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## Sara Waters

Daniel Lybbert said:


> IA good dog is a good dog. A good dog with a bunch of titles is a ledgend. Look at Us'Ton
> 
> The title should be what I want the dog for. Not really interested in a show title


I dont know about protection sports so cant comment there. 

Some of our best agility dogs are rescue dogs. There is a lady I know who takes on dumped working dog pups and so far she has got every one of them to obedience champion and close to putting agility champions on them too. Should they be bred for future agility dogs? I doubt it as they are very common in the pounds, dumped for being unsuitable as a backyard suburban dog. She is just a really good trainer. There are also a number of unlikely rescue mixes that have floated to the top also in the hands of very successful trainers.

So I guess with titles it depends, I think the trainer needs to be factored in as well. A good dog is a product of a number of factors in agility and obedience. Not too many people breed agility dogs on the basis of their titles where I live and we have some of the fastest and best dogs in Australia.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

But agility and obedience aren't based on instinctive traits or any of those drives so treasured in the protection world. I don't think any protection sport person would agree that its "mostly about the training and the trainer."

T


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## brad robert

brad robert said:


> Harry i dont think people seriously think a title helps your chance of getting a good pup.
> 
> I just think when certified working dogs PD etc are not common to breed to, well at least here there not.A title gives you something that slightly resembles this. And shows work ability, trainability a dog that can handle stress of all sorts including hours of training.


 
Does that help?

I liked your comment about titles being a thing of the past it made me think if that will ever happen and i guess in some parts of the world it already is.


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## Sara Waters

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> But agility and obedience aren't based on instinctive traits or any of those drives so treasured in the protection world. I don't think any protection sport person would agree that its "mostly about the training and the trainer."
> 
> T


I think a good agility dog has certain traits that are definitely desirable but they can be found in a range of working and mixed breed dogs. 

So I think that there are desirable traits required for agility but I dont neccessarily believe that breeding only agility titled dogs are going to get you anything better than what can be picked up from say the working dog pool. So the best partnerships seem to be a combo of a good trainer and a good dog, but I dont think titled parents add value to selecting a good prospect, or at least it doesnt appear to.


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## Brian Anderson

Joby Becker said:


> The problem is also this...there are also many people that are doing what is done in your video examples, that DO title the dogs as well. SO if you do not like those dogs in the videos, but the owner then eeks out a title in their club trial, with their club helper, and a judge that may not be very strict, does that then mean the dogs are better???
> 
> One of the clubs I go to is filled with show people, that also try to get titles, and some do...these are the same people that snap a picture of their dog doing a shitty bark and hold, and toss it on the website...


Joby people surely wouldnt actually do that would they? LMAO


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## Anita Griffing

Joby,
I think that if "one of the clubs" you go to has American show people doing schutzhund/IPO
that is awesome. How better to educate people about breeding practices and
what a good working dog looks like? What better place to learn about the standards
of the GSD? 
Anita


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## will fernandez

I think titles are a good measuring stick if you know the background info about the handler, trainer and club. 


If you know that a certain trainer demands the most out of a dog and you know he/she is not a point person and they win a championship then you might want to consider that dog for breeding.


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## Skip Morgart

I do believe that _some_ people can judge a dog properly ..titles or not...BUT, I think there are a lot of people that SAY they can judge the dog properly, when that isn't the case. If ALL these people actually knew how to judge a dog properly, there should be a hell of a lot more good dogs being bred and born. I think titles are just another good piece of the puzzle, and it shows that the owner takes the time, has the basic knowledge, and holds the leash on trial day to show what the dog is capable of doing in front of a judge.


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## vicki dickey

My last two aussie puppies came from Champion dogs but were not titled for OB, agility or herding. Oddly enough I did not want a conformation dog but wanted to show in OB and agility. 
So why did I take these puppies? The parents were hip and eye certified,healthy, obviously built nice, and had wonderful dispositions when I met them. The pedigrees had great bloodlines. The puppies were healthy, socialized and were friendly and outgoing. 
Would it have made a difference had the parents had titles? It would have been icing on the cake but obviously not necessary since I bought the puppies.
If the parents were titled and champions but were not healthy, did not have friendly dispositions, and the pups were not socialized and healthy you couldnt have paid me to take a pup. Bottom line to me is health, dispostions, socialization of pups, and if the parents had certified hips, etc. 
I know too many dogs out there working on a farm that never saw a showring and are far more important,valuable and necessary to their owner than that formal training and those titles on paper.
BTW my pups have lots of OB titles, but are not conformation champions like their parents.


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## Don Turnipseed

Harry, titles are really only meaningful to those that participate in game and sport venues because there is no real standard to judge them by so they make one. In the working venues, nothing has to be made up, they can get the job done or they can't and no one needs a title to see it getting done.


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## Skip Morgart

Don Turnipseed said:


> ... In the working venues, nothing has to be made up, they can get the job done or they can't and no one needs a title to see it getting done.


But this still can be very subjective....different people can have very different opinions of what "getting the job done" actually means, and their opinions can differ on how an individual dog actually performs.


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## Jackie Lockard

Speaking just in IPO titles mean nothing to me. Great trainers can make poor dogs look powerful. Poor trainers can make great dogs look weak. I'd rather see an "untouched" dog's natural instincts than how well it was trained to do specific tasks. Who knows how much time was spent developing a titled dog into a "powerful" animal with "naturally fast retrieves, strong bites, perfect temperament" and whatever other selling points every breeder uses to sell his dogs with. All breeders say pretty much the same things about their dogs. (Power, fast, hard, strong, full grips, and it's always natural and untrained. :---))


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## Kadi Thingvall

I think titles say as much about the owner as they do about the dog, since dogs don't walk onto a trial field all by themselves. But that's an important point to me, when I'm talking about a dog, knowing the experience level of the person I'm talking to gives me a starting point for our discussion. I still have to see if we define things like "good grips" "high drives" etc the same, but if the person has put Sch titles on 5 dogs, and we are discussing the strengths and weaknesses of a Sch dog, there is a comfort level that they know what they are talking about, compared to someone who has never competed in Sch before. Or Ring, or whatever. I'm not saying the person who has never competed isn't equally, or even more, knowledgable, but we have to talk longer to determine that, because they don't have a history of actually doing what we are talking about.

Titles don't tell me if a dog is good or not, but they do tell me, assuming the title was legitimately earned, that the dog was at least able to perform the exercises neccessary to earn that title, and held up under the stress training for the control needed to earn the title. To many training videos on the web of dogs that look great in training, but you never see those dogs trial. So is it because the owner just isn't interested, or is it because "king kong" wouldn't look so good if he had solid control put on him, or ???

At the end of the day though, titles or not, I need to know more about the dog. Rover - FRIII tells me a little, but now I want to actually see Rover in person, or on video (preferably trial video). And I want to know under what judges and decoys Rover earned his titles. Because frankly not all titles are created equal, and a lower level title under a hard judge and decoy(s) may be more impressive than an upper level title under a judge and decoy(s) known for "gifts" or done at a club known for holding "midnight trials". Look at some of the showline "SchIII" dogs and compare their performance to a real SchIII, but on paper both are SchIII. And finally I want to see Rover working outside the comfort zone of their owners sport of choice. What happens when a Sch or BR dog is esquived multiple times, or an MR dog is hit on the head coming through a barrage then worked with the stick FR style, or the FR dog is put through MR/BR style environmental work, etc. A solid performance on the trial field in one sport is great, but I haven't found a sport yet that tests everything, especially not one readily available here in the US, so there is more I want to see. I've seen title and certified (police) dogs from every venue chased when worked in the style of another venue, course I've also seen dogs rise to the challenge and come through the test with flying colors. And when it comes to breeding, its about genetics not letters after a dogs name, if it was as simple as putting III x III to get a whole litter of IIIs we'd have excellent dogs around every corner. So no, titles aren't the end all be all IMO for breeding, they are simply a starting point to look at, although usually titled dogs are being put "out there", so easier to find for evaluation.

My "favorite" though is the people who advertise dogs as "trained to SchIII" or "trained to FRII" etc. If the dog is trained for it, then title them. IMO that's just a cop-out way to try to imply a title the dog doesn't have, and frankly probably isn't actually capable of walking out there and earning. Not saying it couldn't ever earn it, but if you want to claim "trained to SchIII" then your dog should be able to walk on the field, today, right now, and earn a passing score in a SchIII trial. And if that really is the case, if you value the title enough to imply your dog has it, then just go earn it.


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## Christopher Smith

I think that people need to learn about dogsport before they try to judge it. I notice that most of the people that have strong negative opinions have NEVER seen a trial in their lives. They are simply ignorant. 

Then we have a few that have seen the lowest level of the sport and judge the sport on that. Come on, are you really so F'ing stupid that you really think that the showline GSD that you saw, in a local event in the middle of nowhere, is the same as a the dogs on the podium at the WUSV? 

I think a lot of the people that have problems with dogsports, especially IPO, discount it because a less than mediocre dog can attain a title. But what they fail to see that that is one of the strengths of the sport. The sport can be played at a low level that attracts a lot of people. It also is played at a very high level that very few dog and handler teams can reach. It's a broad based sport for everyone. Any idiot can make up a test for a dog that very few can pass. But then who will support it? The handful of dogs that can play? 

Also sport allows everyone to see the dogs. You can't hide the dog in your mountain top compound, put your hand down your pants and fantasize about what your dogs can do. You have to bring them into the public and meet criteria set up by someone other than the voices in your head. And this allows other people to see the dog. And I'm not just looking at the dog on the field. I see the dog when he freaks out when the bellboy rolls luggage by him at the hotel. I see the dog come off of the protection field and and rolll on it's back so the handlers 3 year old can give him a belly rub and some kisses. I see that the dog can't walk through a group of people with out having it's eyes shielded. What is seen on the field is only one part of what goes on at a trial. But you would have to get your ass from in back of a keyboard and see what's really going on. But why do that when you can fantasize about what your dogs can do if they saw a bear or were deployed during the zombie apocalypse?


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## Don Turnipseed

Skip Morgart said:


> But this still can be very subjective....different people can have very different opinions of what "getting the job done" actually means, and their opinions can differ on how an individual dog actually performs.


Everything in life can be subjective. In the dog world titles are almost always associated and used by those for games because there is no actual work to judge them by....thus, the rules are made up, If the rules are not liked by some in one venue, there are other similar venues with different rules. Some are considered harder and more realistic, but, it gives the trainer the option to pick the one he has the ability to train for more successfully. Quite a bit different for working dogs where the job is the test.....but yes, some will get the job done better than others, but, they get the job done or they are out of there. People than have a need for a realm working dog, whether it be stock work, hunting, or protection, get rid of a dog that can't get the job done. In sport, they just train harder until the dog looks better than what it is. May take half the dogs lifetime but what th heck. Working dogs are either cut out for the work or they are not because those that need the work done are not going to spend that much time training. They have the dog to do an actual job. Titles are more about the trainer than the dog.


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## Ariel Peldunas

Skip Morgart said:


> But this still can be very subjective....different people can have very different opinions of what "getting the job done" actually means, and their opinions can differ on how an individual dog actually performs.


Agreed. Furthermore, many applications of working dogs require very little, if anything, from the dogs. The dogs are never truly tested. Considering protection dogs, how many are actually called upon to really put their skills/nerve/drive to the test? There are certain departments and units that have a very real use for strong, serious dogs and they spend a lot of time and effort seeking out dogs that far surpass most normal PSDs. But, from my experience, a large portion of patrol/dual purpose/personal protection dogs will never actual be in a situation where they would see things anywhere near what some dogs see on the trial field. I'm not saying this is the way it should be. Certainly, every dog selected to perform protection tasks should be qualified to do so, but we all know there are plenty of people out there who have dogs they believe would rise to the occasion that actually lack the true heart to do the job. Not that sports replicate real life situations and not that all sport dogs have the qualities to be considered "real" dogs, but at least sports can give a snapshot of what a dog is capable of. There's no perfect answer, but to say dogs selected to do a job off the trial field are better than ones that are trained for a sport is a an impossible statement to qualify.

Another example that comes to mind are retrievers. I have seen a lot of functional bird dogs that get the job done for their owners, but really are not good representatives of the breed. I've seen some show line labs that are trained and suitable as hunting companions. However, the dogs I have seen trained for field trials are often must better specimens of the breed ...healthier, more driven dogs with greater endurance and desire to do the task. A lot of the "working" labs I've seen have a lot of force put on them in order to get the most basic behaviors. A lot of the field trial line dogs need to be reeled back in because they are so eager to do the job, they blow a lot of the control work required for hunt tests/field trials. 

I just think, as Skip said, it's really all subjective. You can just look at a title to get a picture of a dog, but you can't also assume just because the dog is doing a job that the dog is any good at it or even qualified to do it.


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## Don Turnipseed

When it comes right down to it, titles are no more than a marketing tool. Everyone knows titles sells dogs, brings in business, and opens up jobs that would have otherwise not been open to an individual. How many decide to breed a dog once they get a title? Quite a few. How much business does a title hanging on the wall bring in with Joe Public if you have a title or two? How many training jobs open up that would have never been available. Not much call for a trainer with no titles. Marketing pure and simple whether the dog or the trainer is being marketed. Not much different than breeding.


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## Edward Egan

Ok so let's just get rid of all sport titles. How would it look after 10 years?


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## Jackie Lockard

Edward Egan said:


> Ok so let's just get rid of all sport titles. How would it look after 10 years?


Maybe better because you wouldn't get all the pet folks thinking that their "champion" schIII puppy's parents were all that. Like Don said, only a marketing tool for people that don't know better.


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## Kadi Thingvall

Jackie Lockard said:


> Maybe better because you wouldn't get all the pet folks thinking that their "champion" schIII puppy's parents were all that.


Or worse, since there wouldn't be any standardized "measuring stick" to use as a beginning evalution tool. Instead you would have lots of people out there doing the "back yard bubba" thing and claiming to have the most bad ass dogs around. And a few would, but many more wouldn't. It would make it even easier for those with to little knowledge, and to much hype, to make their dogs sound great since there wouldn't even be the question of "why isn't it titled". And those folks the bred the parents of the pet folks dog, the CH/SchIII dogs, wouldn't even have to bother with that before breeding.


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## Christopher Smith

Don Turnipseed said:


> Not much call for a trainer with no titles.


Not much call for a doctor with no degree either. :lol:


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## Jackie Lockard

Kadi Thingvall said:


> Or worse, since there wouldn't be any standardized "measuring stick" to use as a beginning evalution tool. Instead you would have lots of people out there doing the "back yard bubba" thing and claiming to have the most bad ass dogs around. And a few would, but many more wouldn't. It would make it even easier for those with to little knowledge, and to much hype, to make their dogs sound great since there wouldn't even be the question of "why isn't it titled". And those folks the bred the parents of the pet folks dog, the CH/SchIII dogs, wouldn't even have to bother with that before breeding.


In my experience most people don't know what Schutzhund is, so they get told the dog is SchIII (which automatically makes it a "champion"???) and instantly puppies are flying outta the oven. That measuring stick doesn't even exist to most people until you show it to them, and they'll believe the first thing you tell them about it (because they don't know better). In the working world it might become stickier, but over all (show/pet people) I think it wouldn't make nearly so big an impact.

And then the other group of people will always think their dogs are the baddest thing on the block simply because they're out of control and barking at everything that moves.


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## Edward Egan

OK let's look at a random selection of 100 puppies from non-titled parents and 100 puppies from titled, level III parents. Of the two groups, which would better represent the German Shepherd Dog as it should be?


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## Terrasita Cuffie

I don't think anyone is saying they are against dogsports. I do sport herding. But I don't consider sport herding indicative of a dog's breeding value or what's really in him genetically--in a total package sense. I know that trainers can be that good. I'd like to see him in other contexts before deciding on them. What's happening as much in herding as anywhere else is selection for watered down dogs that can be more successful for AKC herding---points, points, points. The more watered down the dog, the more BC folks think they are fabulous when they are really incorrect for their breed. They look great on light/fright sheep but couldn't move stubborn livestock to save their lives because they either didn't have it in the first place or its been all taken out with training so that they will be placement robots putting zero pressure on the stock. Looks great in trials. Useless in real work. It can take awhile but I think the mature dog can figure out the difference between work at home and power down/placement at trials. My bouv may be entering that phase of her life judging by her trialing last season. But I opt for the at home farm dog even if they don't figure it out and I can play sport herding on ducks. 

I think titles are marketing for people that don't know any better. People love to toss out their trainer's trial experiences or the fact that they are a judge in some venue. We all chuckle about this. Doesn't mean a hill of beans regarding their ability to work certain types of dogs or that you will agree with how they get results. But for some, if they don't have it, they love to brag that their trainer does. The sentence will always begin with, "my trainer, the judge. . ." Its as if by virtue of the the judge or title credentials, everything else that follows is gospel. I will say if some of those trainer/judges knew how they were being bandied about they would be mortified. They don't see themselves that way. I think if you have an eye, there are some things you can see on the trial field. I can look out and see a placement robot that puts zero pressure on stock. What I don't know unless I see a flash of something is whether he was made that way in training or whether he is that way genetically. I'm sure protection people have their things they look for as well. For what I do and look for, I've bred to an untitled dogs and have puppies out of untitled dogs because I can test the puppies or dogs themselves. Hasn't failed me yet.

T


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## Edward Egan

Like it or not I believe titles are just one part of looking at a dog. However if you'd take away titles, what would breeders market their litter on? I bet it would be mostly on looks. So I ask which is the worst of the two evils? Looks don't provide for the total GSD (insert your working breed here). But thats pretty much what would be left other than size, "I breed the largest GSD in the USA!". So WTF would it accomplish? Like it or not that's the way marketing works.
Years ago I sold motorcycles, there was a saying, "Win on Sunday, sell on Monday" It had little if anything to do with who the rider was, which to the educated rider ment almost everthing.


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## Edward Weiss

Dunno guess it depends on what you want from a dog

Two available litters from Germany(Airedales)

Now if I wanted a dog to do sports wouldn't have a hard time choosing.

http://www.vonmontechristo.de/html/wurfplanung_airedale_terrier.html

http://www.airedale-youngdukes.de/deck5.jpg

Both well known and at least 60 years breeding behind a few of the lines from one of the kennels.
All lbreeding is a game of chance to some extent but you can tilt the odds .JMHO


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## Britney Pelletier

Kadi Thingvall said:


> My "favorite" though is the people who advertise dogs as "trained to SchIII" or "trained to FRII" etc. If the dog is trained for it, then title them. IMO that's just a cop-out way to try to imply a title the dog doesn't have, and frankly probably isn't actually capable of walking out there and earning. Not saying it couldn't ever earn it, but if you want to claim "trained to SchIII" then your dog should be able to walk on the field, today, right now, and earn a passing score in a SchIII trial. And if that really is the case, if you value the title enough to imply your dog has it, then just go earn it.


Very well said, and a huge pet peeve of mine as well!


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## Britney Pelletier

Christopher Smith said:


> I think that people need to learn about dogsport before they try to judge it. I notice that most of the people that have strong negative opinions have NEVER seen a trial in their lives. They are simply ignorant.
> 
> Then we have a few that have seen the lowest level of the sport and judge the sport on that. Come on, are you really so F'ing stupid that you really think that the showline GSD that you saw, in a local event in the middle of nowhere, is the same as a the dogs on the podium at the WUSV?
> 
> I think a lot of the people that have problems with dogsports, especially IPO, discount it because a less than mediocre dog can attain a title. But what they fail to see that that is one of the strengths of the sport. The sport can be played at a low level that attracts a lot of people. It also is played at a very high level that very few dog and handler teams can reach. It's a broad based sport for everyone. Any idiot can make up a test for a dog that very few can pass. But then who will support it? The handful of dogs that can play?
> 
> Also sport allows everyone to see the dogs. You can't hide the dog in your mountain top compound, put your hand down your pants and fantasize about what your dogs can do. You have to bring them into the public and meet criteria set up by someone other than the voices in your head. And this allows other people to see the dog. And I'm not just looking at the dog on the field. I see the dog when he freaks out when the bellboy rolls luggage by him at the hotel. I see the dog come off of the protection field and and rolll on it's back so the handlers 3 year old can give him a belly rub and some kisses. I see that the dog can't walk through a group of people with out having it's eyes shielded. What is seen on the field is only one part of what goes on at a trial. But you would have to get your ass from in back of a keyboard and see what's really going on. But why do that when you can fantasize about what your dogs can do if they saw a bear or were deployed during the zombie apocalypse?



You knocked that bad boy right out of the park, my friend. :lol:


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## Skip Morgart

Christopher Smith said:


> I think that people need to learn about dogsport before they try to judge it. I notice that most of the people that have strong negative opinions have NEVER seen a trial in their lives. They are simply ignorant.
> 
> Then we have a few that have seen the lowest level of the sport and judge the sport on that. Come on, are you really so F'ing stupid that you really think that the showline GSD that you saw, in a local event in the middle of nowhere, is the same as a the dogs on the podium at the WUSV?
> 
> I think a lot of the people that have problems with dogsports, especially IPO, discount it because a less than mediocre dog can attain a title. But what they fail to see that that is one of the strengths of the sport. The sport can be played at a low level that attracts a lot of people. It also is played at a very high level that very few dog and handler teams can reach. It's a broad based sport for everyone. Any idiot can make up a test for a dog that very few can pass. But then who will support it? The handful of dogs that can play?
> 
> Also sport allows everyone to see the dogs. You can't hide the dog in your mountain top compound, put your hand down your pants and fantasize about what your dogs can do. You have to bring them into the public and meet criteria set up by someone other than the voices in your head. And this allows other people to see the dog. And I'm not just looking at the dog on the field. I see the dog when he freaks out when the bellboy rolls luggage by him at the hotel. I see the dog come off of the protection field and and rolll on it's back so the handlers 3 year old can give him a belly rub and some kisses. I see that the dog can't walk through a group of people with out having it's eyes shielded. What is seen on the field is only one part of what goes on at a trial. But you would have to get your ass from in back of a keyboard and see what's really going on. But why do that when you can fantasize about what your dogs can do if they saw a bear or were deployed during the zombie apocalypse?


This is one of the BEST explanations I have read on the topic. Big, big kudos to you Mr. Smith.


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## Don Turnipseed

No matter how you try to rationalize this one, the only other group that holds titles in such high esteem are show people. Titles are seldom ever a priority of dogs that work. Most venues that require real working dogs don't even have titles. That is a fact like it or not.


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## Britney Pelletier

Don Turnipseed said:


> No matter how you try to rationalize this one, the only other group that holds titles in such high esteem are show people.


According to whom? You? 



> Titles are seldom ever a priority of dogs that work. Most venues that require real working dogs don't even have titles. That is a fact like it or not.


It would probably be helpful if you cited specific examples. 

For example, POLICE DOGS have to pass certain certification standards before they are allowed to work.. there is even such a thing as Police Dog Trials/Titles. Every random Joe Schmoe can't say, "wowee, my dawggie is a real bad ass at home and barks visciously at the mailman and bites real good in the backyard.. he should definitely be a police dog!"


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## Edward Weiss

I find iit curious that the question of competition and titles as a basis for effecting breeding is still a question.
In hunting breeds this is not a question at all because of the obvious observable effects.
Splitting of breeds are the result of 50 plus years of breeding for traits that are tested,nose,drive,biddability,memory etc.
Thats why there are now field bred Springers that have very little similarity in appearance or temperament to their conformation/pet ( larger fluffier and duller) bred cousins.
The same with Labs. A field trial Lab that retrieves 4 marks hundreds of yards apart that it saw sequentially fall, each identified with a gunshot over irregular terrain and remembers their position as it fetches to hand and then goes out again by memory and drive won't be found in a pet store, newspaper ad or confirmation ring.

Unless ypu are breeding for an appearance, testing, competition or some manner of measurement of function and ability is required or you don't KNOW "what you got".


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## Don Turnipseed

Competition produces dogs that are better at useless things. A hunter doesn't care if a lab can mark 4 birds past 100 yards because it is a useless trait in the real world. Only in sport games do you find people thinking they need to teach a dog how to bite....because points depend on how it is done ....because they made up a rule. People that want a dog that is capable of doing a job want a dog that doesn't need half a life time to train it. They want a dog that can do the job. I can tell you you runs the best hounds in this whole area. They got no titles. Depending on titles is like assuming that AKC herding events produces dogs that can go out and handle stock that has never seen a dog in real life. It would be like me going back to the show people to get a dog to do hogs. I did that once. The dogs were not fast enough to catch anything.


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## Skip Morgart

Don Turnipseed said:


> No matter how you try to rationalize this one, the only other group that holds titles in such high esteem are show people. Titles are seldom ever a priority of dogs that work. Most venues that require real working dogs don't even have titles. That is a fact like it or not.


I'm seeing more and more of your posts have less and less validity. In my opinion, based on a lot of the SHOW people that I know, MOST of them do not care as much about WORKING titles..I'm not including stuff like the basic "rally" stuff. They care a lot more about the SHOW titles. I would ask what you base your version of the "facts" on, but I doubt if a legit answer would be forthcoming.


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## Edward Egan

What I find curious is the people that respond to these topics in a negative manner, for the most part, do not or have never attempted to title a dog. Some have even gone as far as for months telling us their dog is a natural protector. But when tested, comepletely failed. Then for months following tell us that test/titles are useless. By the way his dog was tripped off about the test and thats why it tucked tail and jumped out the window while escaping. The dog understood it was a set up, even thoug it had never seen the decoy or a bite suit. LOL

If you can't see titles having some use in selecting a puppy, so be it, I personally give it some value, especially if I can see it or watch a video. I do believe it's more about the handler, TD and associates abilities, but it's still very hard to score well, especially at a higher than club level trial.

By the way can you name a working dog venue that doesn't offer trials or titles of some type? Maybe hunting, I don't know anything about it nor do I pretend too.


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## Ariel Peldunas

Don Turnipseed said:


> No matter how you try to rationalize this one, the only other group that holds titles in such high esteem are show people. Titles are seldom ever a priority of dogs that work. Most venues that require real working dogs don't even have titles. That is a fact like it or not.


FACT! Because that's how science works. And you can't mess with science.


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## Connie Sutherland

_"Also sport allows everyone to see the dogs. .... You have to bring them into the public and meet criteria set up by someone other than the voices in your head. And this allows other people to see the dog. And I'm not just looking at the dog on the field. I see the dog when he freaks out when the bellboy rolls luggage by him at the hotel. I see the dog come off of the protection field and and rolll on it's back so the handlers 3 year old can give him a belly rub and some kisses. I see that the dog can't walk through a group of people with out having it's eyes shielded. What is seen on the field is only one part of what goes on at a trial."_


There's a lot to that post.


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## Edward Weiss

Can't stand this Airedale jumping out of the car stuff anymore!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Ariel Peldunas

Edward Weiss said:


> Can't stand this Airedale jumping out of the car stuff anymore!!!!!!!!!!!


Edward, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that dog participating in a sport that awards titles?

No one said that an Airedale couldn't/wouldn't bite or that they couldn't be trained to do so, just that Don's untrained dogs would not protect him without training.


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## Edward Weiss

I admit it! 
Whats worse he participated in a lot of different sports,but then again i am partly to blame.
i drove him to the sport fields.


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## Thomas Barriano

Ed

I think jumping out of a car is OK if the dog is going to chomp on a hidden sleeve before he hits the ground


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## Edward Weiss

Funny you mention that,it happened first time the bad guy started yelling through the window.
Didnt know if the helper or yours truly was more surprised by Brisco's unsportsman like conduct. He had never ridden in a car on a seat,and I hadn't taken a firm enough hold of his lead.
In a second he was through the window glommed onto sleeve and man and dog were rolling around on the ground.
Being a proper VPG guy till that time he never unfastened from the sleeve. 
I tried to laugh it off but was given a reprimand by the helper,admittedly deserved.

He grew to like the game though a senior at the time.


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## Joby Becker

Hey Ed..

Has this Airedale (the one working with Daniel McElroy and Paul), in the top picture, ever been entered in any of the local Chicago PP tournaments, (Joe Kidd's, Walter Wards, or Ray Barrera's )or has he ever been worked in Joliet, IL???


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## Sara Waters

Edward Egan said:


> By the way can you name a working dog venue that doesn't offer trials or titles of some type? Maybe hunting, I don't know anything about it nor do I pretend too.


Our working sheepdog trials dont offer titles. I dont really think serious graziers pay much attention to such things anyway. They just want a good dog that will handle situations far removed from any trial ring. The only real testing ground is on large mobs of sheep/cattle in the terrain that they have to deal with.

As to sport, certainly in agility in Australia (it is much harder in the UK I think) it is easy enough to title dogs and they are making it easier with new rulings to get agility champion titles as well which used to be very hard. This is to make this sort after title achievable for any consistent dog that runs clear, not just the elite that place first and second consistently against allcomers.

All my dog have quite a few titles and one also has a current state title. I have a masters dog, but she is by no means a good agility dog. She is consistent because she doesnt push the boudaries and doesnt make mistakes very often and always goes clear, but she only ever wins when the really fast dogs stuff up.

Everyone knows who the really good dogs are it is pretty darn obvious regardless of titles. Of my 5 that I run I only have one that has the capacity to be an outstanding dog and so far he is the only one that I havent titled. He is super fast, has heaps of attitude and I have to have my wits about me to handle him effectively, but when we get it together his times are right up there with the fastest. He is a dog that tests ones handling ability to the limit, because he is running on the edge. His sister is owned by one of our top handlers and she is storming up the ranks. He is my main sheepdog so I dont have quite the same time and committment for agility, but most people recognise him as a potential very good dog in the hands of a committed agility trainer.

There are actually a few dogs that are clearly outstanding but not owned by top handlers. They often dont do all that well because they are too much dog for their handlers out on the agility field (usually superfast dogs that need split second handling) but you can see their potential in the right hands. Their handlers though enjoy them and that is one of the main points of dog sport.


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## Annika Friberg

Connie Sutherland said:


> _"Also sport allows everyone to see the dogs. .... You have to bring them into the public and meet criteria set up by someone other than the voices in your head. And this allows other people to see the dog. And I'm not just looking at the dog on the field. I see the dog when he freaks out when the bellboy rolls luggage by him at the hotel. I see the dog come off of the protection field and and rolll on it's back so the handlers 3 year old can give him a belly rub and some kisses. I see that the dog can't walk through a group of people with out having it's eyes shielded. What is seen on the field is only one part of what goes on at a trial."_
> 
> 
> There's a lot to that post.


I like this too.


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## Don Turnipseed

Originally Posted by Connie Sutherland 
"Also sport allows everyone to see the dogs. .... You have to bring them into the public and meet criteria set up by someone other than the voices in your head. And this allows other people to see the dog. And I'm not just looking at the dog on the field. I see the dog when he freaks out when the bellboy rolls luggage by him at the hotel. I see the dog come off of the protection field and and rolll on it's back so the handlers 3 year old can give him a belly rub and some kisses. I see that the dog can't walk through a group of people with out having it's eyes shielded. What is seen on the field is only one part of what goes on at a trial."


There's a lot to that post. 






Annika Friberg said:


> I like this too.


I fully agree also! Even though two dogs have titles. actually seeing them does help seing which one is the wheat and which is the chaffe, but it isn't very consistent with what is being said about people buying on titles because they can't look at every dog.


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## Joby Becker

Don Turnipseed said:


> Originally Posted by Connie Sutherland
> "Also sport allows everyone to see the dogs. .... You have to bring them into the public and meet criteria set up by someone other than the voices in your head. And this allows other people to see the dog. And I'm not just looking at the dog on the field. I see the dog when he freaks out when the bellboy rolls luggage by him at the hotel. I see the dog come off of the protection field and and rolll on it's back so the handlers 3 year old can give him a belly rub and some kisses. I see that the dog can't walk through a group of people with out having it's eyes shielded. What is seen on the field is only one part of what goes on at a trial."
> 
> 
> There's a lot to that post.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I fully agree also! Even though two dogs have titles. actually seeing them does help seing which one is the wheat and which is the chaffe, but it isn't very consistent with what is being said about people buying on titles because they can't look at every dog.


that is why there are these inventions that shoot video footage..

I realize a video is not a great way to judge a dog, but if you are not working the dog yourself, and are just watching the dog work, a video can be just as good, depending on its content...

The good thing is, you can always include talking to the decoys/helpers, and other people that have had experience with, or have observed the dog, as opposed to just "buying" based on a title....


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## Joby Becker

Don Turnipseed said:


> Originally Posted by Connie Sutherland
> "Also sport allows everyone to see the dogs. .... You have to bring them into the public and meet criteria set up by someone other than the voices in your head. And this allows other people to see the dog. And I'm not just looking at the dog on the field. I see the dog when he freaks out when the bellboy rolls luggage by him at the hotel. I see the dog come off of the protection field and and rolll on it's back so the handlers 3 year old can give him a belly rub and some kisses. I see that the dog can't walk through a group of people with out having it's eyes shielded. What is seen on the field is only one part of what goes on at a trial."
> 
> 
> There's a lot to that post.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I fully agree also! Even though two dogs have titles. actually seeing them does help seing which one is the wheat and which is the chaffe, but it isn't very consistent with what is being said about people buying on titles because they can't look at every dog.


that is why there are these inventions that shoot video footage..

I realize a video is not a great way to judge a dog, but if you are not working the dog yourself, and are just watching the dog work, a video can be just as good, depending on its content...

The good thing is, you can always include talking to the decoys/helpers, and other people that have had experience with, or have observed the dog, as opposed to just "buying" based on a title....which I dont think anyone serious about getting a good working dog will do....


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## Harry Keely

Edward Egan said:


> OK let's look at a random selection of 100 puppies from non-titled parents and 100 puppies from titled, level III parents. Of the two groups, which would better represent the German Shepherd Dog as it should be?


Edward, just so you know I am not against titles on dogs or going out there and have fun with your dogs and having a few titles thrown on them, I think its great that people do stuff with there dogs thats worth a dam and not just go for jogs and let them collect dust and treat them like a human being.

Now in sayin that I have to say this - it depends on the parents attributes, genetics and x - rays. I think I asked this earlier and if I did I am sorry to sound like a broken record, also sorry to the folks that I might of missed because I dint read through the whole thread.

Heres my question --- How and why do you folks think that a title will change the genetic makeup of a dog, because a dog doesnt know it now has a title nor will science or evoulution let a title changes a dogs natural makeup as god made it? So please if you can prove me wrong that my question in statement is wrong I would love to here it :-k


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## Skip Morgart

Joby Becker said:


> that is why there are these inventions that shoot video footage..
> 
> I realize a video is not a great way to judge a dog, but if you are not working the dog yourself, and are just watching the dog work, a video can be just as good, depending on its content...
> 
> The good thing is, you can always include talking to the decoys/helpers, and other people that have had experience with, or have observed the dog, as opposed to just "buying" based on a title....which I dont think anyone serious about getting a good working dog will do....


ONCE AGAIN, people aren't saying we buy solely "based on the title". As far as videos, they usually don't tell the whole story, and a lot of times only the "good" stuff is shown. I've seen good and bad videos of the same dog. And as was mentioned, the dog that trials is there for all to see, ...on the field, off the field,....may things get seen that never make it onto the video. Personally, I also like talking to the top helpers that work the events. They see a LOT of what the dog really is. Again, NOBODY that I know buys a dog solely based on the title, but trialing the dog does bring out a lot of what the dog really has, for ALL to see. Plus it also tells you something about the breeders (if they work the dogs also) to show what kind of real confidence they have in their dogs to put them out there for all to see.


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## Connie Sutherland

Harry Keely said:


> ... Heres my question --- How and why do you folks think that a title will change the genetic makeup of
> a dog ...



Who does think that? 


Titles are an indicator. They're not instruments of genetic change.


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## Joby Becker

Harry Keely said:


> Heres my question --- How and why do you folks think that a title will change the genetic makeup of a dog, because a dog doesnt know it now has a title nor will science or evoulution let a title changes a dogs natural makeup as god made it? So please if you can prove me wrong that my question in statement is wrong I would love to here it :-k


nobody thinks this Harry...

But some people DO think if you dont title the dog, and breed it..it is a terrible thing...

I was on facebook chatting away, and initiated a conversation with a lady, who obviously thinks she is THE BREED WARDEN of the Dutch Shepherd here in the states..

I asked her about the lineage of one of her dogs, which is still very unclear to me to this day, and also about some of his character traits...for research purposes since I bred to one of his offspring...

The conversation eroded fairly quickly and she expressed her disappointment in the fact that a dog that was a product of her stud, was being bred to my female.

She expressed her thoughts pretty candidly, about my dog, and me, without ever having met either of us.

My dog was in her opinion, vicious, aggressive, and basically a liability to the breed, or at least that is how it came off to me...not the type of dog that should be bred, especially with blood from one of her dogs...

She also address the lack of titles as a big argument against breeding the dog, as well as hammering me for not having OFA cert on the dog.

Basically in her eyes I am a scumbag, who only has one interest in my dog, to make her into a puppy factory...

She went on to say that she felt very sorry for my dog, because I do not do anything with her... except breed her...

I let her get it all out, and then attempted to explain what my dog is really like, and what I really do with the dog, which was not heard in my opinion....

I then asked the same questions you are asking...

If I titled the dog, would it be a better dog, as far a breedability went?

If I had an xray that I could submit (mine was taken at 22 months), and submitted it, does that mean the dogs hip status would be better?

she then went on to explain all the benefits and pros for titling and OFA, which I do agree with, but she would not address my above 2 questions..

SO basically I suck as a dog owner for not titling her, I suck because I got hip, elbow, and spinal xrays done before breeding, and the dog is vicious, and should not be bred...

but the same dog if titled, and OFA'd, would be a better dog for breeding...and would somehow be living a better life...

It was perplexing to say the least...
she did somewhat agree with what I was saying in round about way, when I laid it out, and did admit that titles often are used by people for marketing and to PROVE things to other people, but would not address the logic that the dog was the same dog, either way....


----------



## Skip Morgart

Joby Becker said:


> nobody thinks this Harry...
> 
> But some people DO think if you dont title the dog, and breed it..it is a terrible thing...
> 
> I was on facebook chatting away, and initiated a conversation with a lady, who obviously thinks she is THE BREED WARDEN of the Dutch Shepherd here in the states..
> 
> I asked her about the lineage of one of her dogs, which is still very unclear to me to this day, and also about some of his character traits...for research purposes since I bred to one of his offspring...
> 
> The conversation eroded fairly quickly and she expressed her disappointment in the fact that a dog that was a product of her stud, was being bred to my female.
> 
> She expressed her thoughts pretty candidly, about my dog, and me, without ever having met either of us.
> 
> My dog was in her opinion, vicious, aggressive, and basically a liability to the breed, or at least that is how it came off to me...not the type of dog that should be bred, especially with blood from one of her dogs...
> 
> She also address the lack of titles as a big argument against breeding the dog, as well as hammering me for not having OFA cert on the dog.
> 
> Basically in her eyes I am a scumbag, who only has one interest in my dog, to make her into a puppy factory...
> 
> She went on to say that she felt very sorry for my dog, because I do not do anything with her... except breed her...
> 
> I let her get it all out, and then attempted to explain what my dog is really like, and what I really do with the dog, which was not heard in my opinion....
> 
> I then asked the same questions you are asking...
> 
> If I titled the dog, would it be a better dog, as far a breedability went?
> 
> If I had an xray that I could submit (mine was taken at 22 months), and submitted it, does that mean the dogs hip status would be better?
> 
> she then went on to explain all the benefits and pros for titling and OFA, which I do agree with, but she would not address my above 2 questions..
> 
> SO basically I suck as a dog owner for not titling her, I suck because I got hip, elbow, and spinal xrays done before breeding, and the dog is vicious, and should not be bred...
> 
> but the same dog if titled, and OFA'd, would be a better dog for breeding...and would somehow be living a better life...
> 
> It was perplexing to say the least...
> she did somewhat agree with what I was saying in round about way, when I laid it out, and did admit that titles often are used by people for marketing and to PROVE things to other people, but would not address the logic that the dog was the same dog, either way....



The list of dog owners/breeders that think their dog is a super dog, has what it takes, is the real deal, can do the job...etc..etc.. is ENDLESS. Bringing that dog out onto the trial field does not change genetics, but it does show to others IF the dog really does have those qualities and IF the owner has a f___ing clue what they are talking about.


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## Joby Becker

Skip Morgart said:


> The list of dog owners/breeders that think their dog is a super dog, has what it takes, is the real deal, can do the job...etc..etc.. is ENDLESS. Bringing that dog out onto the trial field does not change genetics, but it does show to others IF the dog really does have those qualities and IF the owner has a f___ing clue what they are talking about.


I can agree with that as well..which ALONG with doing all that, increases marketability of puppies...

I did offer to email all the xrays to her, and give her some contact info for decoys that have worked the dog, and others that KNOW the dog, and also offered to shoot and submit video to her, displaying that the dog was very stable, and not vicious, she was not interested in any of those things...

I wish I would have taken a video camera into the vets office last week, that woulda cleared some of the BS up I am sure..

The point is that the person, was never gonna buy a puppy from me, so what do I have to prove to her? her judgement was pretty harsh, without anything to base it on, besides I like to debate online, am somewhat off the wall on some things, and occasionally post while drinking... and the fact that she apparently DOES NOT LIKE the Dutch bred type dogs...

People are free to make choices, if someone does not like a certain dog for whatever reason that is, they for surely do not have to buy a puppy. as to your statement above...I do not think it is necessary to put a dog on a trial field to display whether it is the REAL DEAL or not....or display that the dog can DO THE JOB....especially if the dogs job is NOT SPORT....

But to try to make assumptions about how a dog is treated, how the dog is, without ever meeting the dog, is pretty silly in my opinion...

When it came time to selling some of the pups, 4 groups came out, and spent time with, and worked both of the parents..

2 of them offered to purchase my female on the spot, 2 of them bought a pup, and 1 of them is raising a couple of the pups for police candidates. The rest were sold sight unseen...

I think with the type of dog I have, it is about 50% that is interested in sport work, maybe even less than that...people are more concerned about the core traits that this type of breeding is known for...

There are many people that are very familiar with the genetic aspect of any dog in question, and are willing to take a chance that the owners are not full of shit, or plain stupid, there are others that require a lot of proof of everything, that is their choice...but to imply a dog is not suitable to reproduce, because it lacks a title, is moronic....


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## Skip Morgart

Joby Becker said:


> .....but to imply a dog is not suitable to reproduce, because it lacks a title, is moronic....


 The motto of the puppy millers.

I'm not saying YOU are....but I'm all for a lot less dogs being bred, and this is one of the all time, most used excuses used by the VAST majority of the back yard breeders out there. I'm absolutely sure there are some good dogs being bred out there that are never titled, or trialed, or shown, but I hate to see dogs being bred using THAT excuse, because that covers the other 95% of trash breedings. I just don’t think any breeder is setting the bar very high by using that as a major excuse. 

My opinion, I think there are extremely few real quality breeders (I'm talking for sport/work) that don't think trialing the dog is one of the puzzle pieces that should be done. It doesn’t change the genetics, it proves them and acknowledges them, and the breeder has the confidence and knowledge to put them out there for all to see. The BS stops when the tailgate drops. 

I really like Chris Smith's comment that “Also sport allows everyone to see the dogs. You can't hide the dog in your mountain top compound, put your hand down your pants and fantasize about what your dogs can do. You have to bring them into the public and meet criteria set up by someone other than the voices in your head. And this allows other people to see the dog. And I'm not just looking at the dog on the field. I see the dog when he freaks out when the bellboy rolls luggage by him at the hotel. I see the dog come off of the protection field and and rolll on it's back so the handlers 3 year old can give him a belly rub and some kisses. I see that the dog can't walk through a group of people with out having it's eyes shielded. What is seen on the field is only one part of what goes on at a trial. But you would have to get your ass from in back of a keyboard and see what's really going on. But why do that when you can fantasize about what your dogs can do if they saw a bear or were deployed during the zombie apocalypse?”


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## Harry Keely

Joby & Connie, what I am trying to say in the end is that there are people that say if the dog doesnt have a title some how the dog isnt breed worthy- which to me makes me think that people think a title changes the makeup of a dogs producing abilities - hence meaning genetics and so forth and so on, which is a crock, people do think that and are out there, majority of them are sport folks because that is what has been imprinted in their heads since newbies at there clubs by the big timers who are all trying to corner the market with these such titles. I have been to mid eastern regionals, north eastern regionals and am going to try to make southeastern regionals this year being that it is in SC on the coast or near it, also spent the entire week at the WUSV 2008 with the vendors and did see a bunch of these dogs compete, let me tell ya I wouldnt of taken to many of them even if they were free.

The hotel at the entrance of field entrance before you enter into the baseball complex is where I stayed along with some of these great supposed titled dogs and I watch one that had a shit fit because the sliding glass doors had to open and close, I wanted to laugh, but I didnt to keep my comments and thoughts to myself out of respect for the handler. I also saw something very familiar to the host hotel in cincinatti area which was like a 1/2 hour from the field. Great dogs on the field I am sure of but other than that, like I said you couldnt of giving me one of those two for free. But hey they got titles and they are big competitors so hell lets breed them.=;

What I would love to see and probally will never happen is a competition. Lets put up the non titled dutch dogs per say against the SCH or IPO TITLED dogs and let the dutch dogs recieve the punishment and pressure that the persay NO titled dogs do, Then put the NO titled dogs under the same test as the Titled dogs and see what ratios turn out to be. Now just basing my knowledge and experiences I would lay my money down on non titled per capita meaning that there are good dogs from both sides of the sword here. I think people might be very surprised to see what they would see.


----------



## Joby Becker

Skip Morgart said:


> The motto of the puppy millers.
> 
> I'm not saying YOU are....but I'm all for a lot less dogs being bred, and this is one of the all time, most used excuses used by the VAST majority of the back yard breeders out there. I'm absolutely sure there are some good dogs being bred out there that are never titled, or trialed, or shown, but I hate to see dogs being bred using THAT excuse, because that covers the other 95% of trash breedings. I just don’t think any breeder is setting the bar very high by using that as a major excuse.
> 
> My opinion, I think there are extremely few real quality breeders (I'm talking for sport/work) that don't think trialing the dog is one of the puzzle pieces that should be done. It doesn’t change the genetics, it proves them and acknowledges them, and the breeder has the confidence and knowledge to put them out there for all to see. The BS stops when the tailgate drops.
> 
> I really like Chris Smith's comment that “Also sport allows everyone to see the dogs. You can't hide the dog in your mountain top compound, put your hand down your pants and fantasize about what your dogs can do. You have to bring them into the public and meet criteria set up by someone other than the voices in your head. And this allows other people to see the dog. And I'm not just looking at the dog on the field. I see the dog when he freaks out when the bellboy rolls luggage by him at the hotel. I see the dog come off of the protection field and and rolll on it's back so the handlers 3 year old can give him a belly rub and some kisses. I see that the dog can't walk through a group of people with out having it's eyes shielded. What is seen on the field is only one part of what goes on at a trial. But you would have to get your ass from in back of a keyboard and see what's really going on. But why do that when you can fantasize about what your dogs can do if they saw a bear or were deployed during the zombie apocalypse?”


I agree with this as well..makes sense...but again I will clearly state it is my opinion that *to imply a dog is not suitable to reproduce, because it lacks a title, is moronic....* especially if you have never met the dog..

I would venture to say that majority of females being bred of similar bloodlines as my female is, ARE NOT titled..(as well as with the NVBK dogs) and often the males are bred before they are titled as well, and many even if they are not titled.....

What are your thoughts on breeding to an UNTITLED working police dog? that is not known to the public, but you could see and/or work the dog itself, review its pedigree and his job performance, and can communicate with his handler and trainer?


----------



## Joby Becker

Harry Keely said:


> Joby & Connie, what I am trying to say in the end is that there are people that say if the dog doesnt have a title some how the dog isnt breed worthy- which to me makes me think that people think a title changes the makeup of a dogs producing abilities - hence meaning genetics and so forth and so on, which is a crock, people do think that and are out there, majority of them are sport folks because that is what has been imprinted in their heads since newbies at there clubs by the big timers who are all trying to corner the market with these such titles. I have been to mid eastern regionals, north eastern regionals and am going to try to make southeastern regionals this year being that it is in SC on the coast or near it, also spent the entire week at the WUSV 2008 with the vendors and did see a bunch of these dogs compete, let me tell ya I wouldnt of taken to many of them even if they were free.
> 
> The hotel at the entrance of field entrance before you enter into the baseball complex is where I stayed along with some of these great supposed titled dogs and I watch one that had a shit fit because the sliding glass doors had to open and close, I wanted to laugh, but I didnt to keep my comments and thoughts to myself out of respect for the handler. I also saw something very familiar to the host hotel in cincinatti area which was like a 1/2 hour from the field. Great dogs on the field I am sure of but other than that, like I said you couldnt of giving me one of those two for free. But hey they got titles and they are big competitors so hell lets breed them.=;
> 
> What I would love to see and probally will never happen is a competition. Lets put up the non titled dutch dogs per say against the SCH or IPO TITLED dogs and let the dutch dogs recieve the punishment and pressure that the persay NO titled dogs do, Then put the NO titled dogs under the same test as the Titled dogs and see what ratios turn out to be. Now just basing my knowledge and experiences I would lay my money down on non titled per capita meaning that there are good dogs from both sides of the sword here. I think people might be very surprised to see what they would see.


my views do not have a country of origin, or breed type.. a good dog is a good dog...regardless of breed to me...I would also include good dogs of other types of breedings, besides dutch dogs....but that is just me


----------



## Skip Morgart

Harry Keely said:


> Joby & Connie, what I am trying to say in the end is that there are people that say if the dog doesnt have a title some how the dog isnt breed worthy- which to me makes me think that people think a title changes the makeup of a dogs producing abilities - hence meaning genetics and so forth and so on, which is a crock, people do think that and are out there, majority of them are sport folks because that is what has been imprinted in their heads since newbies at there clubs by the big timers who are all trying to corner the market with these such titles. I have been to mid eastern regionals, north eastern regionals and am going to try to make southeastern regionals this year being that it is in SC on the coast or near it, also spent the entire week at the WUSV 2008 with the vendors and did see a bunch of these dogs compete, let me tell ya I wouldnt of taken to many of them even if they were free.
> 
> The hotel at the entrance of field entrance before you enter into the baseball complex is where I stayed along with some of these great supposed titled dogs and I watch one that had a shit fit because the sliding glass doors had to open and close, I wanted to laugh, but I didnt to keep my comments and thoughts to myself out of respect for the handler. I also saw something very familiar to the host hotel in cincinatti area which was like a 1/2 hour from the field. Great dogs on the field I am sure of but other than that, like I said you couldnt of giving me one of those two for free. But hey they got titles and they are big competitors so hell lets breed them.=;
> 
> What I would love to see and probally will never happen is a competition. Lets put up the non titled dutch dogs per say against the SCH or IPO TITLED dogs and let the dutch dogs recieve the punishment and pressure that the persay NO titled dogs do, Then put the NO titled dogs under the same test as the Titled dogs and see what ratios turn out to be. Now just basing my knowledge and experiences I would lay my money down on non titled per capita meaning that there are good dogs from both sides of the sword here. I think people might be very surprised to see what they would see.


I think the suggestion (if I'm interpreting this right) that a lot of people think that ANY titled dog is breed worthy is just as incorrect. We all know some pretty high scoring (or even low scoring) dogs that we wouldn't consider breed worthy, because it's just ONE piece of the puzzle.


----------



## Harry Keely

Joby Becker said:


> my views do not have a country of origin, or breed type.. a good dog is a good dog...regardless of breed to me...I would also include good dogs of other types of breedings, besides dutch dogs....but that is just me


Nor do I joby:lol:, I am just throwing examples out there of possibilities of situations that could be set up to prove theories, obviously I cant say french bulldog and poodle or some crap like that because that will defently get people laughing dont ya think. So I have to be realistic in my statement hence the use of dutch and GSD used for nothing more than examples.

Yes Joby your right a good dog is a good dog regardless the breed, I know that and also think a majority know that, but we are all hung up on our breeds, hence why you have a dutch dog right now and didnt go by a GSD, not saying we dont like other breeds and think there are good dogs in those other breeds but in the end lets be honest we all have our breed of choice. I know I do and not a shamed to say I love the mali / DS and have had A GSD or two in my time.

All I am trying to do is get people to get the heads out of the rears and be a little more open minded on the whole dog - title, etc..... issue.


----------



## Harry Keely

Skip Morgart said:


> I think the suggestion (if I'm interpreting this right) that a lot of people think that ANY titled dog is breed worthy is just as incorrect. We all know some pretty high scoring (or even low scoring) dogs that we wouldn't consider breed worthy, because it's just ONE piece of the puzzle.


BINGO and same gos for non titled dogs there is ome good ones and there is shitters.


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## Skip Morgart

Joby Becker said:


> I agree with this as well..makes sense...but again I will clearly state it is my opinion that *to imply a dog is not suitable to reproduce, because it lacks a title, is moronic....* especially if you have never met the dog..
> 
> I would venture to say that majority of females being bred of similar bloodlines as my female is, ARE NOT titled..(as well as with the NVBK dogs) and often the males are bred before they are titled as well, and many even if they are not titled.....
> 
> What are your thoughts on breeding to an UNTITLED working police dog? that is not known to the public, but you could see and/or work the dog itself, review its pedigree and his job performance, and can communicate with his handler and trainer?


...and conversely, it is my opinion that *dogs without titles are not automatically breed worthy just because someone "says" the dog is breed worthy..to me that is even MORE moronic..*(if that makes sense).
To answer your question, I'm not a breeder, doubtful I ever will be, but if the "police dog" (which is itself a "title" in my opinion) is a real standout specimen in the work, balanced temperament, good health certs, good health in the lines, no disqualifying faults (fits the breed standard), then yeah, I would say breed worthy.


----------



## Joby Becker

Skip Morgart said:


> ...and conversely, it is my opinion that *dogs without titles are not automatically breed worthy just because someone "says" the dog is breed worthy..to me that is even MORE moronic..*(if that makes sense).


we are in 100% agreement on this point....


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## Harry Keely

Lets try to look at it maybe in this light, this is just a theory of mine OK folks so dont get all butt hurt over this comment please.

Theory #1: A dog is bred with no title and has puppies, but after getting those puppies weaned off of her a few months later boom she gets her title, her next heat cycle comes and she has another litter of pups. Does that mean those first litter of pups are no good because mom didnt have the title yet compared to the next litter when she did. Or mom wasnt as good or breed worthy as the first litter.

Theory#2: two females bred to same male ( title isnt in this theory of having one or not ) both have had litters before and are repeat breedings, but the litters are too young to really get a read on how the parents produced, ya with me here still folks. one has a title the other does not. Titled females is lesser of two females in over all picture of the bigger picture (workability, genetics, xrays are equal readings, etc....... ). What litter are you going to choose from the titled mom or the un-titled mom - and why?



My outlook is theory #1 pups are of same quality based on solely a title now in the picture

My outlook is theory#2 is I am going with the non title mom litter because the bigger picture is staring me in the face.



Whats your outlooks folks and why?


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## Skip Morgart

Harry Keely said:


> BINGO and same gos for non titled dogs there is ome good ones and there is shitters.


I guess part of my issue here is that I don't trust the vast majority of breeders out there to really know what they are doing (or they don't care). That's why I really like to see the dog out there trialing for all to see. I just think a breeder getting there dog out there to be judged and seen by a lot of people has always upped my confidence level in that breeder. It lowers the possible BS factors a lot in my opinion.


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## Bob Scott

The title would only mean something if I knew/respected the club, trainer, judge and veniue the dog titled in. To many cheap ones out there.
The value of the first litter compared to the second litter "SHOULD" be the same but public perception is still going to put emphasis on the pups that have the titled dog/bitch/parents.
I don't agree with it but it's reality to most. 
The "knowledgeble" people in LE probably has the most realistic outlook on dogs. Look at what THAT dog brings to your needs!


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## Harry Keely

Skip Morgart said:


> I guess part of my issue here is that I don't trust the vast majority of breeders out there to really know what they are doing (or they don't care). That's why I really like to see the dog out there trialing for all to see. I just think a breeder getting there dog out there to be judged and seen by a lot of people has always upped my confidence level in that breeder. It lowers the possible BS factors a lot in my opinion.


not that I really disagree with what your saying above, but lets say you have a firend or know one of these guys that is breeding a non titled dog and there hell of dogs and bring the whole package are you really going to turn down a pup because of it not having a title, I would sure hope not.

All I am trying to do is show people what Joby said a good dog is a good dog, scratch the breed part ( sorry Joby ) because this in itself says it all.


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## Harry Keely

Bob Scott said:


> The title would only mean something if I knew/respected the club, trainer, judge and veniue the dog titled in. To many cheap ones out there.
> The value of the first litter compared to the second litter "SHOULD" be the same but public perception is still going to put emphasis on the pups that have the titled dog/bitch/parents.
> I don't agree with it but it's reality to most.
> The "knowledgeble" people in LE probably has the most realistic outlook on dogs. Look at what THAT dog brings to your needs!


Nice answer Bob


----------



## Skip Morgart

Harry Keely said:


> Lets try to look at it maybe in this light, this is just a theory of mine OK folks so dont get all butt hurt over this comment please.
> 
> Theory #1: A dog is bred with no title and has puppies, but after getting those puppies weaned off of her a few months later boom she gets her title, her next heat cycle comes and she has another litter of pups. Does that mean those first litter of pups are no good because mom didnt have the title yet compared to the next litter when she did. Or mom wasnt as good or breed worthy as the first litter.
> 
> Theory#2: two females bred to same male ( title isnt in this theory of having one or not ) both have had litters before and are repeat breedings, but the litters are too young to really get a read on how the parents produced, ya with me here still folks. one has a title the other does not. Titled females is lesser of two females in over all picture of the bigger picture (workability, genetics, xrays are equal readings, etc....... ). What litter are you going to choose from the titled mom or the un-titled mom - and why?
> 
> 
> 
> My outlook is theory #1 pups are of same quality based on solely a title now in the picture
> 
> My outlook is theory#2 is I am going with the non title mom litter because the bigger picture is staring me in the face.
> 
> 
> 
> Whats your outlooks folks and why?


You know, it's easy to come up with scenarios that fit your viewpoint by jumping into a time machine and going back and forth...so it's silly to choose (my opinion). BUT, I guess since (in scenario #2) the titled female is the lesser of the two, unless I had a HUGE amount of respect for the breeder and his/her knowledge, I would pass on both litters. On what basis was the non-titled female judged to be superior, and by who? Was this due to great/lousy training? BUT since it's a repeat breeding, and the prior litter was at least 6 months old now, some of those could still be evaluated and become a factor. There are a lot of other factors...is this a breeder that you trust? Is this a breeder that you respect their opinion? Is this a breeder that health tests the parents? How healthy are the lines? There are a lot of pieces to the puzzle...ya see? and the titles are one.


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## Joby Becker

this thread is kinda personal to me...

I recently basically had someone tell me the dog should not be bred, because it was not titled...and expressed great displeasure at a dog out of her breeding being used to breed with my aggressive, crappy, untitled bitch...

Without ever meeting the dog...

and then proceeded to tell me she feels sorry for my dog, because I dont compete in sport, (like the dog is mistreated, or just rotting away here) even after I told her what types of things I do participate in with the dog.


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## Skip Morgart

Harry Keely said:


> not that I really disagree with what your saying above, but lets say you have a firend or know one of these guys that is breeding a non titled dog and there hell of dogs and bring the whole package are you really going to turn down a pup because of it not having a title, I would sure hope not.
> 
> All I am trying to do is show people what Joby said a good dog is a good dog, scratch the breed part ( sorry Joby ) because this in itself says it all.


My views here explain my wish list....I would not turn down a pup if, after looking at ALL my criteria, the pup seemed like a good gamble...you have to be able to make as good a guess as you can. BUT, I set pretty high goals for my dogs. As a matter of fact, I have such a pup laying at my feet. Mother was not titled, father is on his way to germany to be titled...but I have known the owners of the sire and dam, and they both have produced some phenomenal stuff. I took a chance, and time will tell. So far, the pup is doing super in the work, and has done excellent at the sieger shows also.


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## Harry Keely

Skip Morgart said:


> You know, it's easy to come up with scenarios that fit your viewpoint by jumping into a time machine and going back and forth...so it's silly to choose (my opinion). BUT, I guess since (in scenario #2) the titled female is the lesser of the two, unless I had a HUGE amount of respect for the breeder and his/her knowledge, I would pass on both litters. On what basis was the non-titled female judged to be superior, and by who? Was this due to great/lousy training? BUT since it's a repeat breeding, and the prior litter was at least 6 months old now, some of those could still be evaluated and become a factor. There are a lot of other factors...is this a breeder that you trust? Is this a breeder that you respect their opinion? Is this a breeder that health tests the parents? How healthy are the lines? There are a lot of pieces to the puzzle...ya see? and the titles are one.


its nothing more than a theory, no one said you had to answer HAHA, and whats been provided is all there is to base a answer off of. like I said just theories.


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## Harry Keely

Skip Morgart said:


> My views here explain my wish list....I would not turn down a pup if, after looking at ALL my criteria, the pup seemed like a good gamble...you have to be able to make as good a guess as you can. BUT, I set pretty high goals for my dogs. As a matter of fact, I have such a pup laying at my feet. Mother was not titled, father is on his way to germany to be titled...but I have known the owners of the sire and dam, and they both have produced some phenomenal stuff. I took a chance, and time will tell. So far, the pup is doing super in the work, and has done excellent at the sieger shows also.


OK, well I hope you dont wash your hands and become close minded because one pup didnt work for ya from this scenario, because on the other side of the coin I have had pups out of two titled parents and have been garbage in my eyes, pups are a risk no matter the parents situation.


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## Skip Morgart

Harry Keely said:


> its nothing more than a theory, no one said you had to answer HAHA, and whats been provided is all there is to base a answer off of. like I said just theories.


well, I wouldn't call either of them theories, just hypothetical situations. So, given those scenarios, I would pass on both litters until more of my questions could be answered. Most people I know would need more info....so there you have it.


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## Harry Keely

Joby Becker said:


> this thread is kinda personal to me...
> 
> I recently basically had someone tell me the dog should not be bred, because it was not titled...and expressed great displeasure at a dog out of her breeding being used to breed with my aggressive, crappy, untitled bitch...
> 
> Without ever meeting the dog...
> 
> and then proceeded to tell me she feels sorry for my dog, because I dont compete in sport, (like the dog is mistreated, or just rotting away here) even after I told her what types of things I do participate in with the dog.


Ohhhhhhhhhhhh the mindset of so many pal, who gives a flying f**k what people say, its your dog, your money, your life and in the end thats what it comes down to.

I tell ya a little story, theres a SCH club in the columbia area, the guy who own it or ran it call it waht you will has now passed on, I wen there with a mal and got shun away and told kinda the samething, little did he know i also had a GSD and also a GSDx. I smiled and told him pretty much in so many words he needed to open his eyes,ears and get his head out of you know what and got back in my car and left. I knew of other clubs and orgs that werent like that and knew it was that club, and shrugged it off and have continue to get it done man. Dog people in general are not all their and think their poop dont stink and are master trainers, all you need to do is read between the lines and return the favors in so however you choose to man. thats my piece on that situation.


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## Harry Keely

Skip Morgart said:


> well, I wouldn't call either of them theories, just hypothetical situations. So, given those scenarios, I would pass on both litters until more of my questions could be answered. Most people I know would need more info....so there you have it.


OK, well thats your right, nowhere does it say you have to pick one or the other it just ask you too, see thats the beauty of it all.


----------



## Skip Morgart

Harry Keely said:


> OK, well I hope you dont wash your hands and become close minded because one pup didnt work for ya from this scenario, because on the other side of the coin I have had pups out of two titled parents and have been garbage in my eyes, pups are a risk no matter the parents situation.


yep, pups are a risk...that's for sure...now if I name several people that got several crappy dogs from untitled parents, do I win? We each have our own wish list criteria, and we all try to make good choices, and I just try to put as much in my favor as I can. I've had to make a few allowances with every dog I've bought, it doesn't change my wish list.


----------



## Skip Morgart

Harry Keely said:


> Ohhhhhhhhhhhh the mindset of so many pal, who gives a flying f**k what people say, its your dog, your money, your life and in the end thats what it comes down to.
> 
> .....


I agree, although I think once you start breeding you take on a little more responsibility to the breed and to others.


----------



## Skip Morgart

Joby Becker said:


> we are in 100% agreement on this point....


Joby...I get the feeling we might actually agree more than disagree on a lot of stuff.


----------



## Skip Morgart

Harry Keely said:


> Ohhhhhhhhhhhh the mindset of so many pal, who gives a flying f**k what people say, its your dog, your money, your life and in the end thats what it comes down to.
> 
> I tell ya a little story, theres a SCH club in the columbia area, the guy who own it or ran it call it waht you will has now passed on, I wen there with a mal and got shun away and told kinda the samething, little did he know i also had a GSD and also a GSDx. I smiled and told him pretty much in so many words he needed to open his eyes,ears and get his head out of you know what and got back in my car and left. I knew of other clubs and orgs that werent like that and knew it was that club, and shrugged it off and have continue to get it done man. Dog people in general are not all their and think their poop dont stink and are master trainers, all you need to do is read between the lines and return the favors in so however you choose to man. thats my piece on that situation.


The SchH club gave you a hard time when you got there about breeding your Mal, and that's why you left?


----------



## Harry Keely

Skip Morgart said:


> yep, pups are a risk...that's for sure...now if I name several people that got several crappy dogs from untitled parents, do I win? We each have our own wish list criteria, and we all try to make good choices, and I just try to put as much in my favor as I can. I've had to make a few allowances with every dog I've bought, it doesn't change my wish list.


Sure Skip with the exception of the untitled parents part because I could return the favor with titled parents, so lets nt piss into the wind and agree on the rest of the statement


----------



## Harry Keely

Skip Morgart said:


> I agree, although I think once you start breeding you take on a little more responsibility to the breed and to others.


WOW we agree 100%


----------



## Harry Keely

Skip Morgart said:


> The SchH club gave you a hard time when you got there about breeding your Mal, and that's why you left?


No I was just using the story that happen to me as a example of the close mindness of people ( not saying all people ), it was over the fact that I had a supposedly crazy dog because it was a dutch line mali.


----------



## Connie Sutherland

Harry Keely said:


> No I was just using the story that happen to me as a example of the close mindness of people


I'm not Skip, but I didn't understand what happened. No confrontation, I am just asking. _" .... got shun away and told kinda the samething"_

Told what?


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## Skip Morgart

Harry...my comment about "do I win if I name others too" was just to show the absurdity of the statement. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like you've been to several SchH clubs....why? Have you ever titled a dog? At the beginning of this thread you mentioned something about "you could care less about a title"...so why then go to clubs where achieving a title on the dog is the usual goal?


----------



## Christopher Smith

Harry Keely said:


> Joby & Connie, what I am trying to say in the end is that there are people that say if the dog doesnt have a title some how the dog isnt breed worthy- which to me makes me think that people think a title changes the makeup of a dogs producing abilities - hence meaning genetics and so forth and so on, which is a crock, people do think that and are out there, majority of them are sport folks because that is what has been imprinted in their heads since newbies at there clubs by the big timers who are all trying to corner the market with these such titles.


Harry, I'm sure you have heard that Pitbulls jaws "lock" and Dobermans "turn on their masters". What do those two things lead you to believe? 

Also from knowing next to nothing about or the people involved you make a huge assumption that "newbies" first and only experience is with dogs is with sport. You are wrong.


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## Harry Keely

Connie Sutherland said:


> I'm not Skip, but I didn't understand what happened. No confrontation, I am just asking. _" .... got shun away and told kinda the samething"_
> 
> Told what?


I was told in so many words that my dog was sub standard because I wasn't a GSD owner ( little did he know ), and that my dog would never really be anything because I couldnt compete at worlds, which at the time I didnt want to compete and was just looking for strange fields, strange helpers, as I still do to keep the dogs from get the closet effect. Couldnt get a word in edge wise. Didnt know me from a whole in the wall like Joby situation, but was quick to run his sucker. At that point I knew I would beat a dead horse with him and said I will be the bigger of the two tell him a brief thing or two and get in my ride and hit the highway. But hey its all good, I am still doing what I like for a hobby just like i was doing it before he shared his thoughts.


----------



## Christopher Smith

Joby Becker said:


> this thread is kinda personal to me...
> 
> I recently basically had someone tell me the dog should not be bred, because it was not titled...and expressed great displeasure at a dog out of her breeding being used to breed with my aggressive, crappy, untitled bitch...
> 
> Without ever meeting the dog...
> 
> and then proceeded to tell me she feels sorry for my dog, because I dont compete in sport, (like the dog is mistreated, or just rotting away here) even after I told her what types of things I do participate in with the dog.


Joby, this can't possibly be the first time someone in the dog world told you some crazy shit. So what? Let a jackass do what jackasses do. Put don't make it into a sport thing; it's a jackass thing.


----------



## Harry Keely

Skip Morgart said:


> Harry...my comment about "do I win if I name others too" was just to show the absurdity of the statement. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like you've been to several SchH clubs....why? Have you ever titled a dog? At the beginning of this thread you mentioned something about "you could care less about a title"...so why then go to clubs where achieving a title on the dog is the usual goal?


Come on already I thought we agree on the fact to disagree. I have been to few major events that I mentioned earlier all as a assistant to the vendor we did alot of metal work for, I have also been to the DC club with a friend that does SCH with two import malis, and plus there a good group of folks at least in my eyes, I have also been to that one club in Columbia once, and been too the hendersonville / asheville club where butch is at a few times when a friend want to check it out I went along, which they were a decent group too. Depending on the area that i lived in I would attend a club with the right folks like one like the DC club. NO have not titled a dog in sport, but have brought dogs up from pups and also bought adults a prepared them for police and other govt work ( my true pride and joy ). I do care less about a title if the dog is a true dog, I think I have answered the club part, if not I will say this I dont have problems with sport folks or clubs in general.


----------



## Christopher Smith

Harry Keely said:


> * I didnt want to compete and was just looking for strange fields, strange helpers, as I still do to keep the dogs from get the closet effect*.


Harry, any half way decent club should have turned you away for this reason alone. IPO clubs are there to title dogs. It's not a place for some jack-off to waste people's time.

Go to the dog park.


----------



## Harry Keely

Christopher Smith said:


> Harry, I'm sure you have heard that Pitbulls jaws "lock" and Dobermans "turn on their masters". What do those two things lead you to believe?
> 
> Also from knowing next to nothing about or the people involved you make a huge assumption that "newbies" first and only experience is with dogs is with sport. You are wrong.


Come on not even going to feed into the propaganda of naming a whole breed for a few bad ones that might exist, that be like me saying every GSD has bad hips, because its a supposed fact Christopher. Not playing into that.

Second part get more clear on before I answer that concerning newbies.


----------



## Harry Keely

Christopher Smith said:


> Harry, any half way decent club should have turned you away for this reason alone. IPO clubs are there to title dogs. It's not a place for some jack-off to waste people's time.
> 
> Go to the dog park.


Nice try at a insult too, jack off really who still says that HAHAHA. Whos wasting time I am just there to hangout and talk with folks that want to talk to me.

Comment about the dog park is exactly why they exist because of people treating people they dont know that come to clubs like how you just talk to me, man if words could describe that.:-({|=

On that note I got nothing to say man or answer anymore of your crap talking to me like that, if I am wrong, Iapologize but I think its clear that you were pointing that comment at me.


----------



## Joby Becker

Christopher Smith said:


> Joby, this can't possibly be the first time someone in the dog world told you some crazy shit. So what? Let a jackass do what jackasses do. Put don't make it into a sport thing; it's a jackass thing.


Chris, I am not making it a sport thing at all... Like I said I am not against sport at all, and see a lot of value in it all the way around...

I love dogsports, very entertaining, and very cool...and do alot more good for a breed then anything else really...in the big scope...

there are jackasses on all sides, this I agree with


----------



## Harry Keely

Christopher Smith said:


> Harry, I'm sure you have heard that Pitbulls jaws "lock" and Dobermans "turn on their masters". What do those two things lead you to believe?
> 
> Also from knowing next to nothing about or the people involved you make a huge assumption that "newbies" first and only experience is with dogs is with sport. You are wrong.


OK here is where I brought up newbies, no where did I say_* only*_ and secondly I have* never* bashed the sport. Also you make the huge assumption I know nothing, I know there almost entire routines and kinda how there scored as far as protection and OB go, I admit a little sluggish on the tracking part because have never got to see it done on a comp. But i do talk and ask questions and keep a open mind, and also not scared to ask a question if I dont know instead of like some say nothing and act like i know and screw up a dog more that needed becasue of pride issues.

my statement to avoid words being put in my mouth, you can dig through the previous statements to verify if you so wish too :_* majority of them are sport folks because that is what has been imprinted in their heads since newbies at there clubs by the big timers who are all trying to corner the market with these such titles.*_

*Oh yea do your math alone is this thread per capita to titles wanted to no titles then look at their training venues, the numbers dont lie, not sure though what the problem is because no one here bashed a title for breeding including myself.*


----------



## Don Turnipseed

Harry Keely said:


> Nice try at a insult too, jack off really who still says that HAHAHA. Whos wasting time I am just there to hangout and talk with folks that want to talk to me.
> 
> Comment about the dog park is exactly why they exist because of people treating people they dont know that come to clubs like how you just talk to me, man if words could describe that.:-({|=
> 
> On that note I got nothing to say man or answer anymore of your crap talking to me like that, if I am wrong, Iapologize but I think its clear that you were pointing that comment at me.


Gotta understand Harry, Christopher finally got a couple of titles. Thinks it makes him somebody special. Lots of regular people got titles in lots of things.....


----------



## Christopher Smith

Harry Keely said:


> Come on not even going to feed into the propaganda of naming a whole breed for a few bad ones that might exist, that be like me saying every GSD has bad hips, because its a supposed fact Christopher. Not playing into that.


Do you really believe that stuff about Pitbulls and Dobies has any possibility in hell of being true?!?! Those things are as ridiculous as someone thinking that titles change the genetics. 

But the fact that you didn't see the ridiculousness of the questions and then equated it to the very real problem of GSDs hips, speaks volumes about your knowledge of dogs, IMO.


----------



## Skip Morgart

Harry Keely said:


> ... Also you make the huge assumption I know nothing, I know there almost entire routines and kinda how there scored as far as protection and OB go, I admit a little sluggish on the tracking part because have never got to see it done on a comp. But i do talk and ask questions and keep a open mind, and also not scared to ask a question if I dont know instead of like some say nothing and act like i know and screw up a dog more that needed becasue of pride issues...../QUOTE]
> 
> 
> It's all clear to me now. Still not even a BH on any dog, but you know "there almost entire routines".
> 
> Now I understand why you feel the need to say how unimportant the titles are.


----------



## Christopher Smith

Don Turnipseed said:


> Gotta understand Harry, Christopher finally got a couple of titles. Thinks it makes him somebody special. Lots of regular people got titles in lots of things.....


Yes The Seed accomplishments make people special. Maybe one day you might be special too.


----------



## Harry Keely

Harry Keely said:


> Come on not even going to feed into the propaganda of naming a whole breed for a few bad ones that might exist, that be like me saying every GSD has bad hips, because its a supposed fact Christopher. Not playing into that.
> 
> Second part get more clear on before I answer that concerning newbies.





Christopher Smith said:


> Do you really believe that stuff about Pitbulls and Dobies has any possibility in hell of being true?!?! Those things are as ridiculous as someone thinking that titles change the genetics.
> 
> But the fact that you didn't see the ridiculousness of the questions and then equated it to the very real problem of GSDs hips, speaks volumes about your knowledge of dogs, IMO.


Of course I dont thats why I said I am not even going to feed into that, just through the GSD in there to ad to the idiots of the world that think crap like this, but hey you got your ideas and I got mine, so when do you want to come here and train? There for we can share a face to face meeting instead of talk smack through a screen :lol::lol::lol:, Then once you come to my little world and will come train at yours, I think thats fair enough right. Yea I am publicly calling you out, because bullies like you are like the telephone tough guys of the world, oh and bring your dog please. We have a few test we love to run him through. I will return the favor.


----------



## Harry Keely

Skip Morgart said:


> Harry Keely said:
> 
> 
> 
> ... Also you make the huge assumption I know nothing, I know there almost entire routines and kinda how there scored as far as protection and OB go, I admit a little sluggish on the tracking part because have never got to see it done on a comp. But i do talk and ask questions and keep a open mind, and also not scared to ask a question if I dont know instead of like some say nothing and act like i know and screw up a dog more that needed becasue of pride issues...../QUOTE]
> 
> 
> It's all clear to me now. Still not even a BH on any dog, but you know "there almost entire routines".
> 
> Now I understand why you feel the need to say how unimportant the titles are.
> 
> 
> 
> So I guess I never titled a dog for sch or ipo and you understand what, I cant handle a dog, please oh please tell me you are not making that huge mistake that somebody else has made](*,)
Click to expand...


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## will fernandez

March 7 and 8 th there is a seminar in spartanburg sc that i will be lending a hand at..come on down harry

Sent from my SCH-I510 using Tapatalk


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## Christopher Smith

Harry Keely said:


> Also you make the huge assumption I know nothing


Harry, your post only confirms that you don't know about the sport. From your own admission you don't know about tracking and don't know all of the rules for the other 2 phases. And since you brought up math let's do a little shall we? Tracking is 33% of IPO. And you don't know all of the rules of phase B and C. So overall let's say you know 65% of the rules (You may thank me for my generosity in that number).

What happens when you only get 65% of the points in IPO?


----------



## Christopher Smith

Harry Keely said:


> Of course I dont thats why I said I am not even going to feed into that, just through the GSD in there to ad to the idiots of the world that think crap like this, but hey you got your ideas and I got mine, so when do you want to come here and train? There for we can share a face to face meeting instead of talk smack through a screen :lol::lol::lol:, Then once you come to my little world and will come train at yours, I think thats fair enough right. Yea I am publicly calling you out, because bullies like you are like the telephone tough guys of the world, oh and bring your dog please. We have a few test we love to run him through. I will return the favor.


If you are calling me out you come to me. And you can't test anything that I own. But we can train.


----------



## Harry Keely

Christopher Smith said:


> Harry, your post only confirms that you don't know about the sport. From your own admission you don't know about tracking and don't know all of the rules for the other 2 phases. And since you brought up math let's do a little shall we? Tracking is 33% of IPO. And you don't know all of the rules of phase B and C. So overall let's say you know 65% of the rules (You may thank me for my generosity in that number).
> 
> What happens when you only get 65% of the points in IPO?


Well I know each one is like worth 100 points and theres three parts so 300 x .65 = 195 iwould assume you loose and get no title. If I am not mistaken you need like a 210 or 220 or some crap like that. If this is wrong then congrats you got me, if this is right I am done playing twenty dam questions with ya.


----------



## Skip Morgart

Harry Keely said:


> Skip Morgart said:
> 
> 
> 
> So I guess I never titled a dog for sch or ipo and you understand what, I cant handle a dog, please oh please tell me you are not making that huge mistake that somebody else has made](*,)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nope, didn't say you couldn't "handle a dog",...but you have been to sport clubs enough times for you to "think you know the whole routines" (which actually takes quite awhile), but then you constantly say how unimportant the titles are. From what I've read, it seems like either you don't have the ability to title, or that your dogs don't, or both, since you've been to sport clubs enough to "think you know the whole routines". Like I said, titling is just one piece of the puzzle, and not the be-all-end-all to dog training and breeding, but I resent it when you put it down as unimportant when it's plain to see you've been to sport clubs many times, yet you've accomplished nothing and learned next to nothing about it. We also get people that come to my SchH club periodically that just sit around, take up space, give some bogus knowledge resume', brag about their "accomplishments and knowledge", and don't have what it takes, and they are kindly eventually told it's not for them also. Whatever (?) you've accomplished with dogs is no real concern of mine, but please don't try and build yourself up by putting down dogsport and titles that it seems you are unable to do, no matter how many times you've been to different sport clubs.
Click to expand...


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## Harry Keely

will fernandez said:


> March 7 and 8 th there is a seminar in spartanburg sc that i will be lending a hand at..come on down harry
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I510 using Tapatalk


oh yea for what, if it has to do with charlie kirschner, count me out, hes a hell of a trainer I will give that, but I am still owe a dog from his good old belgium buddy luc meiresone which I filed a report with the local sheriffs office, and Charlie just make one excuse after another and another one for the guy that has ripped him off as well, and now owes him dogs after supposedly being friends all these years with Luc. So count me out and sorry I want no part of lies, PM my number, call me to further discuss this matter or about meeting up, not holding a full blown conversation to train through a computer. I am sure thats who your referring to in the spartanburg area. I am sorry but I wont participate in anything that involves him amking money do to the fact I am still waiting on my money to be returned to me ( from Luc ) in my eyes guilty by association because he did have part in it indirectly.


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## Christopher Smith

Harry Keely said:


> Well I know each one is like worth 100 points and theres three parts so 300 x .65 = 195 iwould assume you loose and get no title. If I am not mistaken you need like a 210 or 220 or some crap like that. If this is wrong then congrats you got me, if this is right I am done playing twenty dam questions with ya.


THEY FAIL!!! Just like you FAIL to know the rules of the sport. So you might know something about the sport but FAIL to know enough for your opinions about it to mean anything. Can you understand that?


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## Harry Keely

Christopher Smith said:


> THEY FAIL!!! Just like you FAIL to know the rules of the sport. So you might know something about the sport but FAIL to know enough for your opinions about it to mean anything. Can you understand that?


Alright I am man enough to admit I am wrong with the score, not to all dog stuff though, just because I am not a huge sport guy doesnt mean I am not a dog person and belong in a dog park HAHAHA still laughing at your ass for that, like I said I dont let pride get in the way of dogs, so whats a passing score because I know 65% of 300 is 195 and i am right in my math.


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## will fernandez

No Charlie .....just the SO and other police

Sent from my SCH-I510 using Tapatalk


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## Christopher Smith

Harry you are missing the point. If you have a knowledge deficit at the failure level about the rules, how can you possibly convince yourself that you don't have failure level knowledge about the sport in general?


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## Don Turnipseed

Christopher Smith said:


> Yes The Seed accomplishments make people special. Maybe one day you might be special too.


And I am as dumb as Harry apparently, you got an obedince title and a tracking title. Either of those include bitework?


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## Edward Egan

Harry Keely said:


> Alright I am man enough to admit I am wrong with the score, not to all dog stuff though, just because I am not a huge sport guy doesn't mean I am not a dog person and belong in a dog park HAHAHA still laughing at your ass for that, like I said I dont let pride get in the way of dogs, so whats a passing score because I know 65% of 300 is 195 and i am right in my math.


The short answer is 70 points per discipline. IPO 2, going for a IPO 3 you need 80 points in C (protection).

Tracking/OB/Protection IPO 1 = 70/70/70...... IPO 2 = 70/70/70 (80 to attempt a 3)........IPO 3 = 70/70/70.


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## Harry Keely

Christopher Smith said:


> Harry you are missing the point. If you have a knowledge deficit at the failure level about the rules, how can you possibly convince yourself that you don't have failure level knowledge about the sport in general?


I agree to a extent I guess I should of refer to the parts of it the blinds, jumps, long bites, ob parts ( not claiming to be a master ).

So are you going to man up like I did and give me the right answer to my wrong answer that I man up and answered publicly please..........


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## Christopher Smith

And let me clarify the dog park comment for you too:

If you don't want to title your dog you shouldn't be at the sport club wasting time and not accomplishing anything (aka jacking off). If you want to have a place to let your dog out of the "closet" you will be better served at the local dog park.


----------



## Harry Keely

Harry Keely said:


> Well I know each one is like worth 100 points and theres three parts so 300 x .65 = 195 iwould assume you loose and get no title. If I am not mistaken you need like a 210 or 220 or some crap like that. If this is wrong then congrats you got me, if this is right I am done playing twenty dam questions with ya.





Edward Egan said:


> The short answer is 70 points per discipline. IPO 2, going for a IPO 3 you need 80 points in C (protection).
> 
> Tracking/OB/Protection IPO 1 = 70/70/70...... IPO 2 = 70/70/70 (80 to attempt a 3)........IPO 3 = 70/70/70.


OK so I was partially right in my answer then I was just missing the 80 part that would need to be a 240 to attempt the three. Thanks not I only feel like a partial SCH smuck LOL


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## Harry Keely

will fernandez said:


> No Charlie .....just the SO and other police
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I510 using Tapatalk


OK well like I said call me then , I told you call me you got my numberm, so call me.


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## Harry Keely

Don Turnipseed said:


> And I am as dumb as Harry apparently, you got an obedince title and a tracking title. Either of those include bitework?


I am fine with what ever folks think, I love what Ido and thats all that matters to me


----------



## Edward Egan

Don Turnipseed said:


> And I am as dumb as Harry apparently, you got an obedince title and a tracking title. Either of those include bitework?


Don, you can get individual titles in tracking and OB, levels 1-3. IPO contains all 3, tracking, OB, and Protection. You must pass all 3 to be awarded a IPO title. In some counties you can get just a protection title, but not available in USA.


----------



## Harry Keely

Christopher Smith said:


> And let me clarify the dog park comment for you too:
> 
> If you don't want to title your dog you shouldn't be at the sport club wasting time and not accomplishing anything (aka jacking off). If you want to have a place to let your dog out of the "closet" you will be better served at the local dog park.


:lol: just walk up and hand somebody a sleeve or suit huh ( just a joke ), but you get where I am coming from in that comment I hope. I for one will never join a club with out scouting first do to personal experiences, just me though.


----------



## Edward Egan

Harry Keely said:


> OK so I was partially right in my answer then I was just missing the 80 part that would need to be a 240 to attempt the three. Thanks not I only feel like a partial SCH smuck LOL


Well not exactly right, just for clarification. a 69/71/70 for instance would not pass.


----------



## Christopher Smith

Don Turnipseed said:


> And I am as dumb as Harry apparently, you got an obedince title and a tracking title. Either of those include bitework?


No. No bite work with those titles. Would you like my dog to bite you on video to see if he bites or not? I can be to you in 10 hours.

And don't try to put words in my mouth. I don't think that Harry is dumb. I think that Harry is ignorant, but there is hope for him. I don't think you are dumb either. I think you are brain damaged and/or missing a chromosome.


----------



## Harry Keely

Edward Egan said:


> Well not exactly right, just for clarification. a 69/71/70 for instance would not pass.


:lol: yea i picked up on the 70's across the score sheet and the 80's across the score sheet part;-), but thanks for going into the detail of that


----------



## Harry Keely

Christopher Smith said:


> No. No bite work with those titles. Would you like my dog to bite you on video to see if he bites or not? I can be to you in 10 hours.
> 
> And don't try to put words in my mouth. I don't think that Harry is dumb. I think that Harry is ignorant, but there is hope for him. I don't think you are dumb either. I think you are brain damaged and/or missing a chromosome.


Ignorant a little bit to your sport yes, but not ignorant in general, also where was i wrong in my answer with the exception of the 80's part huh ? That showed a little bit of your ignorance maybe some Christopher to not tell me I was some what right and not describe where I was wrong, so theres hope for you as well I believe.


----------



## Britney Pelletier

Christopher Smith said:


> And don't try to put words in my mouth. I don't think that Harry is dumb. I think that Harry is ignorant, but there is hope for him. I don't think you are dumb either. I think you are brain damaged and/or missing a chromosome.



Spot on.


----------



## Christopher Smith

Harry Keely said:


> :lol: just walk up and hand somebody a sleeve or suit huh ( just a joke ), but you get where I am coming from in that comment I hope. I for one will never join a club with out scouting first do to personal experiences, just me though.


If clubs are accepting members they almost always allow you to come and check out the club before you make a commitment. They may charge a field fee that's usually under $20, most are about $10. And if you bring some snacks they will most likely wave the fee. They want to check you out and see if they want you, as much as you want to see if you want them.


----------



## Harry Keely

Christopher Smith said:


> If clubs are accepting members they almost always allow you to come and check out the club before you make a commitment. They may charge a field fee that's usually under $20, most are about $10. And if you bring some snacks they will most likely wave the fee. They want to check you out and see if they want you, as much as you want to see if you want them.


I can agree with that, thats fair enough


----------



## Harry Keely

Britney Pelletier said:


> Spot on.


spot on to whom or what part of that statement


----------



## Christopher Smith

Harry Keely said:


> Ignorant a little bit to your sport yes, but not ignorant in general, also where was i wrong in my answer with the exception of the 80's part huh ?


I told you. 65% is a fail. It's a fail in sport. It's a fail in academics. It's a fail in every endeavor I can think of. It's just that simple.


----------



## Don Turnipseed

Christopher Smith said:


> No. No bite work with those titles. Would you like my dog to bite you on video to see if he bites or not? I can be to you in 10 hours.
> 
> And don't try to put words in my mouth. I don't think that Harry is dumb. I think that Harry is ignorant, but there is hope for him. I don't think you are dumb either. I think you are brain damaged and/or missing a chromosome.


So, you don't have a title for bitework?? Still training I suppose? I got titles to Christopher, don't even write em on a pedegree. Don't list em as my signature either. Just did it to prove it wasn't that big a deal. I understand your a computer nerd that thinks everyone is out to get you.....is that true?


----------



## Harry Keely

Harry Keely said:


> Well I know each one is like worth 100 points and theres three parts so 300 x .65 = 195 iwould assume you loose and get no title. If I am not mistaken you need like a 210 or 220 or some crap like that. If this is wrong then congrats you got me, if this is right I am done playing twenty dam questions with ya.





Christopher Smith said:


> I told you. 65% is a fail. It's a fail in sport. It's a fail in academics. It's a fail in every endeavor I can think of. It's just that simple.


Like I sad the only thing I am wrong on and you are right on is the 80 part to continue to your three. otherwise I answered right to your 65% part. Its right there in the pudding man. lookf for yourself.:grin:


----------



## Edward Egan

Harry Keely said:


> Like I sad the only thing I am wrong on and you are right on is the 80 part to continue to your three. otherwise I answered right to your 65% part. Its right there in the pudding man. lookf for yourself.:grin:


Wow dude, you must do that new math or something!:razz:

70 of 100 is?


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## Harry Keely

will fernandez said:


> No Charlie .....just the SO and other police
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I510 using Tapatalk


Which ones of the municipal ones are going to be there, where do I get the info?


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## Don Turnipseed

Harry, I figuired it out thanks to Christopher. The other reason people like titles is, in their minds, they think it gives them validation in everyone elses eyes. One dog and one title and they are an expert. What others think means everything to some.


----------



## Joby Becker

Christopher Smith said:


> I told you. 65% is a fail. It's a fail in sport. It's a fail in academics. It's a fail in every endeavor I can think of. It's just that simple.


its a solid D in most highschools


----------



## Harry Keely

Edward Egan said:


> Wow dude, you must do that new math or something!:razz:
> 
> 70 of 100 is?


:lol:is passing, c average, 30 shy of 100, what you need to acquire in each part of a section of IPO to get a title, alrighty enoguh of the shenanigans you crazy ass sporty people.


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## Edward Egan

I hope you work dogs better than answering math questions!:razz: 
70 of 100 is in this context is 70%, note not 65%#-o


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## Harry Keely

Edward Egan said:


> I hope you work dogs better than answering math questions!:razz:
> 70 of 100 is in this context is 70%, note not 65%#-o


yea yea yea thoguht about doing that way making 70 a .70 of being x 100 which yea I would of got and gave the answer of 70% to ya. but oh well.

Disclaimer: AP classes in a NY school and unfinished college in south florida gets ya :-$, on that note I can draw and visualize shit in my head and build things in my head that most probally couldnt and can run the hell out of a business.

Just for the record one of these days I will put a title in a sport maybe not ipo but a sport. Dont rush me hahaha, I promise I will announce it with a score and a video there for covering all basis, probally though will be a suit sport fyi though. There for I can say I titled a dog. Got some stuff up my sleeve in the future to come.


----------



## Sara Waters

Don Turnipseed said:


> Harry, I figuired it out thanks to Christopher. The other reason people like titles is, in their minds, they think it gives them validation in everyone elses eyes. One dog and one title and they are an expert. What others think means everything to some.


Although it doesnt really, at least not in my sport. It gives you a personal goal. My goal is to get my dogs into Masters and to have fun doing it and if we win a few along the way in the lower levels all the better. The top competitors goal is to get an agility champion title and to have the fastest dog and to win everytime in the biggest most competitive venues. The top competitors with the top dogs have no interest in any but the best dogs and I would be fooling myself to think that a couple of titles validates me in their eyes LOL. 

Some of them however are always willing to congratulate an achievement among the lower echelons of the sport because many people are out their simply running with their pets and achievements in the lower levels are often hard won with less than perfect dogs and resources.


----------



## Ariel Peldunas

Don Turnipseed said:


> One dog and one title and they are an expert.


At least someone with a dog and a title has something that I can look at to start building an educated opinion about their ability. I can watch someone compete with their dog or look at their scores and get a pretty accurate snapshot of their ability (provided they were the one who trained the dog). There are plenty of "experts" and "trainers" who can make big claims about their experience and ability because they've been around for a while, but are unable to validate their claims with something tangible. Sure, titles are a validation of training, especially for those who train in disciplines that are hard to validate in practice. But even so, they give others a source of information and a starting point.

I can take my lab, carry her around with me in my boat all day while I shoot some ducks and then take a picture of her sitting next to my kill at the end of the day and no one would know how well she functions as a retriever unless I produce some proof or they are there with me. At least titling a dog forces you to put your training and the dog's skill to the test in front of an objective (hopefully) third party.


----------



## Don Turnipseed

Ariel Peldunas said:


> At least someone with a dog and a title has something that I can look at to start building an educated opinion about their ability. I can watch someone compete with their dog or look at their scores and get a pretty accurate snapshot of their ability (provided they were the one who trained the dog). There are plenty of "experts" and "trainers" who can make big claims about their experience and ability because they've been around for a while, but are unable to validate their claims with something tangible. Sure, titles are a validation of training, especially for those who train in disciplines that are hard to validate in practice. But even so, they give others a source of information and a starting point.
> 
> I can take my lab, carry her around with me in my boat all day while I shoot some ducks and then take a picture of her sitting next to my kill at the end of the day and no one would know how well she functions as a retriever unless I produce some proof or they are there with me. At least titling a dog forces you to put your training and the dog's skill to the test in front of an objective (hopefully) third party.


Been there done that. So what.


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## Britney Pelletier

Your posts really are completely useless, Don.. FYI. I mean, it's actually kind of scary.


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## Ariel Peldunas

Britney Pelletier said:


> Your posts really are completely useless, Don.. FYI. I mean, it's actually kind of scary.


Not completely useless, Brit. To me, they are a good example of where I don't want to be when I'm his age: doing things like I've always done them and thinking I know everything while wondering why everyone else is so misinformed.


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## Edward Weiss

Joby Becker said:


> Hey Ed..
> 
> Has this Airedale (the one working with Daniel McElroy and Paul), in the top picture, ever been entered in any of the local Chicago PP tournaments, (Joe Kidd's, Walter Wards, or Ray Barrera's )or has he ever been worked in Joliet, IL???


I live about 6 hours from Chicago and was up there visiting and had my dog along. It was a Saturday and I was curious about PSA and drove down to the club. Whoa it sure not scenery I'm used to now warehouses empty buildings and such.
The picture you see is the first day Brisco saw a bite suit....the guys in the club were very supportive and cool letting this strange dog into their practice.

Went home and got involved enough to get whatever the suit title comes 
before PSA1.....I hunt him on birds Nov-Jan. and now consider him justly retired.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

I think the original point of the thread was whether titles necessarily prove the breeding worth of the dog. One thing about it, sport does provide a venue and outlet for working dogs. You have to ask yourself whether the sport can adequately test the dog for what it is supposed to be able to offer in "real" working context. I know people who object to trial systems on this principle. The response is that the objections are invalid if you don't establish that you and your dog can do the work. A herding friend and I were talking about this and she said that looking at a pedigree with titles on a foreign dog gives her "something" in terms as opposed to having no title history. At least she can assume a certin degree of trainability from the titles. As a breeder, if you are saying you have a dog that meets a certain standard from a working point of view, people want to see them tested and that usually means under certain trial conditions.

T


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## Edward Weiss

Harry Keely said:


> Edward, just so you know I am not against titles on dogs or going out there and have fun with your dogs and having a few titles thrown on them, I think its great that people do stuff with there dogs thats worth a dam and not just go for jogs and let them collect dust and treat them like a human being.
> 
> Now in sayin that I have to say this - it depends on the parents attributes, genetics and x - rays. I think I asked this earlier and if I did I am sorry to sound like a broken record, also sorry to the folks that I might of missed because I dint read through the whole thread.
> 
> *Heres my question --- How and why do you folks think that a title will change the genetic makeup of a dog, because a dog doesnt know it now has a title nor will science or evoulution let a title changes a dogs natural makeup as god made it? So please if you can prove me wrong that my question in statement is wrong I would love to here it :-k*


*
*

Harry titles don't change the genetic make up of a single dog, but competition and breeding from the results is an accelerated evolution.
The development of more than a dozen breeds in Germany form 1890 to 1930 was the same accelerated evolution.
Read about the development of the Jagd terrier.It was ruthlessly selected for gameness,color, size, it will attack anything anywhere without regard to its own survival.

Breeding based on function concentrates characteristics both mental and physical in the subsequent generations of get. Competition is ONE way of determining what you want to breed.

When I hunt my Dale I am up against guys with real bird dogs ,no comparison in nose. When we stumbled across a **** in Have a heart trap no comparison who had the natural born fur killer and who had the bird finders.


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## Joby Becker

Edward Weiss said:


> I live about 6 hours from Chicago and was up there visiting and had my dog along. It was a Saturday and I was curious about PSA and drove down to the club. Whoa it sure not scenery I'm used to now warehouses empty buildings and such.
> The picture you see is the first day Brisco saw a bite suit....the guys in the club were very supportive and cool letting this strange dog into their practice.
> 
> Went home and got involved enough to get whatever the suit title comes
> before PSA1.....I hunt him on birds Nov-Jan. and now consider him justly retired.


ok...not sure who you are, But I have worked a few Airedales around Chicago, even in that same building  was just wondering if we ever met....or if I worked your dog


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## Christopher Smith

Don Turnipseed said:


> So, you don't have a title for bitework??


The Seed, your idiocracy is showing. First off, the dog gets the title not the handler. And I have trained, handled dogs multipule bitework titles. But nice try dumbass. 





> Still training I suppose?


Of course I'm still training. I have a young dog that's not ready to trial yet. So? What's your point? But if you want to see him bite....I repeat, I can be to your place in a matter of hours and you can see if he bites or not. :razz:




> I got titles to Christopher


I know that The Seed. My favorite is King Dumbass of Tard Mountain. 



> I understand your a computer nerd that thinks everyone is out to get you.....is that true?


I wish I was a computer nerd. All the ones I know make more money than I do. And of course everyone is out to get me, I'm one sexy mother F'er.


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## Harry Keely

Edward Weiss said:


> [/B]
> 
> Harry titles don't change the genetic make up of a single dog, but competition and breeding from the results is an accelerated evolution.
> The development of more than a dozen breeds in Germany form 1890 to 1930 was the same accelerated evolution.
> Read about the development of the Jagd terrier.It was ruthlessly selected for gameness,color, size, it will attack anything anywhere without regard to its own survival.
> 
> Breeding based on function concentrates characteristics both mental and physical in the subsequent generations of get. Competition is ONE way of determining what you want to breed.
> 
> When I hunt my Dale I am up against guys with real bird dogs ,no comparison in nose. When we stumbled across a **** in Have a heart trap no comparison who had the natural born fur killer and who had the bird finders.


I am NOT NOT trying to take away anything from titles it was supose to be a normal conversation that has gone f***ing haywire, it was just a hypothetical question nothing more, nothing else. Folks stop reading so deep into it. Either a dog is or a dog isnt good and thats that. Sorry edward not trying to direct frustration at you. Theres just some dense dense dense folks out there in the world.


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## Christopher Smith

Joby Becker said:


> its a solid D in most highschools


Your right. When you start getting into percentages that low, I'm the ignorant one. :mrgreen:


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## Joby Becker

Christopher Smith said:


> Your right. When you start getting into percentages that low, I'm the ignorant one. :mrgreen:


I got straight A's in grade school, and got my first b in highschool sophomore year, junior year when I started smoking weed, I got my first c.

I was just tryin to be funny...


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## Skip Morgart

Harry Keely said:


> ........ Either a dog is or a dog isnt good and thats that. Sorry edward not trying to direct frustration at you. Theres just some dense dense dense folks out there in the world.



...and some even denser folks out there that want you to automatically believe that THEY know what a real good dog is....DANGER WILL ROBINSON>>DR SMITH WANTS TO EDUCATE YOU!


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## Don Turnipseed

Harry the very best dogs in all worlds are more than likely laying in someones living room fast asleep on the couch. What does that tell you.


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## Don Turnipseed

> First off, the dog gets the title not the handler. And I have trained, handled dogs multipule bitework titles. But nice try dumbass.


Any of the dogs yours?


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## Skip Morgart

Don Turnipseed said:


> Harry the very best dogs in all worlds are more than likely laying in someones living room fast asleep on the couch. What does that tell you.


That they are very sleepy?


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## Don Turnipseed

Britney Pelletier said:


> Your posts really are completely useless, Don.. FYI. I mean, it's actually kind of scary.


Coming from a person that sees no difference in all certified working dogs competeing as opposed to sport dog competition?


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## Christopher Smith

Joby Becker said:


> I got straight A's in grade school, and got my first b in highschool sophomore year, junior year when I started smoking weed, I got my first c.
> 
> I was just tryin to be funny...


Me too.:wink:


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## Skip Morgart

It's a fun FESTIVAL!!!


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## Don Turnipseed

Chistopher said


> ....I repeat, I can be to your place in a matter of hours and you can see if he bites or not.


Like I said Chistopher, I love a challenge, come on over anytime. We meet, you have your dog, I have mine....and we will see if I get bit. Sounds fair enough to me son.


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## Jackie Lockard

Don Turnipseed said:


> Harry the very best dogs in all worlds are more than likely laying in someones living room fast asleep on the couch. What does that tell you.


I thought they were on pillows.


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## Harry Keely

Skip Morgart said:


> ...and some even denser folks out there that want you to automatically believe that THEY know what a real good dog is....DANGER WILL ROBINSON>>DR SMITH WANTS TO EDUCATE YOU!


You keep on taking all the pop shots you want and childish slander you want, I just hope you are one of the ones I get to cross paths with some day to evaluate each other dogs as well as anything else.;-) Funny thing is you are making nothing but assumptions because unlike you I have not judge your training nor your dogs fella mean while you are full steam ripping me apart under no provocation of being able to. SO keep on firing away, like I said your true colors continue to shine my friend


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## Skip Morgart

Funny Harry..you can wink and bang your hear on a brick wall all you want. I'm easy to find. You'll find me the same in person. I don't mince words, and I don't bluff. I don't need to use little kid's smiling faces, winking faces, head banging faces to hint at anything. Bring it on anytime. 



Harry Keely said:


> You keep on taking all the pop shots you want and childish slander you want, I just hope you are one of the ones I get to cross paths with some day to evaluate each other dogs as well as anything else.;-) Funny thing is you are making nothing but assumptions because unlike you I have not judge your training nor your dogs fella mean while you are full steam ripping me apart under no provocation of being able to. SO keep on firing away, like I said your true colors continue to shine my friend


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## Harry Keely

Skip Morgart said:


> Funny Harry..you can wink and bang your hear on a brick wall all you want. I'm easy to find. You'll find me the same in person. I don't mince words, and I don't bluff. I don't need to use little kid's smiling faces, winking faces, head banging faces to hint at anything. Bring it on anytime.


Skip I'm done are you done yet with the crap or you want to keep on slandering on a zero knowledge of my back round hence why I have NOT bashed you directly for your abilities or dogs, thats good your the same in person or at least you say you are in person, I admire that much about you. Maybe some day we will cross paths then on a professional level and not this childish bullshit then HUH, sorry if I use expressions but through a computer screen its hard to get the gsst of a head banging by humorous way this has turned for me at least, so to show my as you like it to be called sportsmanship heres a few last ones for ya, have at it pal say and do what you will, I get other things to move on to I have wasted good time like those people told you you were doing ---;-)](*,):lol::lol::lol:, cheers Skip best of luck to ya in whatever that may be. OH yea if it makes you feel better you WIN because I cant keep on wasting time on a computer like you must have time to do, got money to make and have to go read dog training dummies 101 books to figure out how to teach a dog how to sit boo boo, good dog oh positive reinforcement give snoopy a bone. Oh yea check your PM's.


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## Harry Keely

Dutchie on the right is in MD for Bombs, Dog on left is Apache he a useless house dog










Breeding bitch and narc certified in grenada


















Same mali, still in training with a lady handler now, just a house dog never serve a purpose ( sarcasm )


















same useless dog on the beach


















Theres that useless mal and his dumb handler, the list gos on and on, I could keep this list going of worthless dogs if ya like


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## Doug Zaga

Harry are you showing off your dinosaur of a microwave?:razz:



Harry Keely said:


>


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## Christopher Smith

Are they guarding the AXE body spray from you or for you?


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## Connie Sutherland

Doug Zaga said:


> Harry are you showing off your dinosaur of a microwave?:razz:


Looks just like mine! :lol: I got it at Costco before it even WAS Costco. It was still "Price Club."

Hey, it works great. :razz:


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## Harry Keely

Doug Zaga said:


> Harry are you showing off your dinosaur of a microwave?:razz:


Yea well you know how us sorry as dog people are, we to resort ot cheapness hhahahahahahaha, I sell it to ya for 5 million dollars as a collector items


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## Harry Keely

Connie Sutherland said:


> Looks just like mine! :lol: I got it at Costco before it even WAS Costco. It was still "Price Club."
> 
> Hey, it works great. :razz:


Hey dont be sharing trade secrets please, then they will know where i get all my dog training from books


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## Harry Keely

Christopher Smith said:


> Are they guarding the AXE body spray from you or for you?


From me my wife prefers a more natural smell quality, I have to keep up with caveman days as well as my dogs:lol:


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## Don Turnipseed

Chistopher, you ignoring my post. Tomorrow works, Saturday works......or you afraid to have everyone laugh at you big talker.


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## Christopher Smith

Yes The Seed I'm ignoring you. Yes I'm afraid. No I don't fight dogs.


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## Don Turnipseed

People are laughing at you already son. This was your challenge. Happens when you let your mouth overload your ass.


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## Ariel Peldunas

Don Turnipseed said:


> Chistopher said
> 
> 
> Like I said Chistopher, I love a challenge, come on over anytime. We meet, you have your dog, I have mine....and we will see if I get bit. Sounds fair enough to me son.


Probably a better chance that your dogs will protect you from another dog than another person, huh?


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## Don Turnipseed

Christopher, are you crazy? I said you have your dog I have mine. Both sitting there. I could do anything I wanted to to you and your dog wouldn't do anything. Probably wouldn't anyway off the field..


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## Christopher Smith

No this is what happens when I say my dog is going to bite YOU and you say you want to bring your dog. Why would you want to bring your dog if it wasen't to fight my dog? I sure as hell know your shit ain't biting me. So the only thing you want to do it fight dogs. I don't fight dogs and don't think that it's fun or funny or to be taken in jest. I would never take my dog to that situation. 

If you want to try to get your dog to bite me...cool. Let's make it happen. 

If you want to get bit by my dog...cool. Let's make it happen.


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## Skip Morgart

Don Turnipseed said:


> People are laughing at you already son. This was your challenge. Happens when you let your mouth overload your ass.



Don...just some friendly advice...you should do a little research on who you are challenging. Trust me just this one time.


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## Don Turnipseed

Ariel Peldunas said:


> Probably a better chance that your dogs will protect you from another dog than another person, huh?


Only if you believe dogs can't tell the difference in real real threat and fake Ariel. Let Chistopher talk his talk girl. My dog wouldn't have to protect me in this case because his dog would do nothing. Crap, I will even use the dog that jumped out of the truck. At least he will see what his dog is made of.


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## Christopher Smith

Ariel Peldunas said:


> Probably a better chance that your dogs will protect you from another dog than another person, huh?


Of course, everyone with an ounce of grey matter could smell what The Seed was cookin'.


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## Don Turnipseed

Skip Morgart said:


> Don...just some friendly advice...you should do a little research on who you are challenging. Trust me just this one time.


Read the posts Skip, this was Christophers idea, not mine....I am just willing to go along with it because he is in way over his head.


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## jeff gamber

@ Harry

I have no idea what this thread is about, nor do I want to swim in this pool.

I just want to say your mal Apache is far from useless. When he left he was a great dog and he's a better dog now.

Time to dry off after this quick dip in this pool/thread lol


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## Christopher Smith

Don Turnipseed said:


> Read the posts Skip, this was Christophers idea, not mine....I am just willing to go along with it because he is in way over his head.


Bullshit. My idea was to let you get bit by my dog. You want to turn it into a dog fight.


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## Doug Zaga

Don Turnipseed said:


> Only if you believe dogs can't tell the difference in real real threat and fake Ariel. Let Chistopher talk his talk girl. My dog wouldn't have to protect me in this case because his dog would do nothing. Crap, I will even use the dog that jumped out of the truck. At least he will see what his dog is made of.


 
Don, but if dogs "can tell when it is not real threat" would they run away from that non threat?


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## Skip Morgart

Don Turnipseed said:


> Only if you believe dogs can't tell the difference in real real threat and fake Ariel. Let Chistopher talk his talk girl. My dog wouldn't have to protect me in this case because his dog would do nothing. Crap, I will even use the dog that jumped out of the truck. At least he will see what his dog is made of.


Really Don..now you want to propose a DOG FIGHT? Just my 2 cents, but I think you should be kicked off any forum where you would make such an offer.


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## Joby Becker

the question is, is Don gonna have a gun on him, or his hog knife?

Cause without a gun or a dog or a knife, I am betting on Chris' dog, and again will take all bets from people that think Don's dog will bite, I made a KILLING last time around...

If the bet is on a fight, then I will go with Chris...

Don can I come out too, and see if my dog will bite you?


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## Don Turnipseed

Skip Morgart said:


> Really Don..now you want to propose a DOG FIGHT? Just my 2 cents, but I think you should be kicked off any forum where you would make such an offer.


Ge your head out of your ass Skip. The only one that has mentioned dog fights is Chistopher and you. I can sit my dog next to me and Chistophers dog will do nothing. That is a fact. Dogs can read dogs. That is how far a sport dog will go to protect Chistopher in real life. That is fear.


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## Ariel Peldunas

Joby Becker said:


> the question is, is Don gonna have a gun on him, or his hog knife?
> 
> Cause without a gun or a dog or a knife, I am betting on Chris' dog, and again will take all bets from people that think Don's dog will bite, I made a KILLING last time around...
> 
> If the bet is on a fight, then I will go with Chris...
> 
> Don can I come out too, and see if my dog will bite you?


Mike and I already asked and he never replied. I was disappointed.


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## Don Turnipseed

Joby Becker said:


> the question is, is Don gonna have a gun on him, or his hog knife?
> 
> Cause without a gun or a dog or a knife, I am betting on Chris' dog, and again will take all bets from people that think Don's dog will bite, I made a KILLING last time around...
> 
> If the bet is on a fight, then I will go with Chris...
> 
> Don can I come out too, and see if my dog will bite you?


You already crawfished once Joby, even when someone else offered to pay. LOL


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## Christopher Smith

Joby Becker said:


> If the bet is on a fight, then I will go with Chris...


Never get in a fight that you can't win. If I beat that old mans ass...I'm a looser. If he beats my ass I'm a looser. I can't win that fight.:razz:


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## jeff gamber

Christopher Smith said:


> Never get in a fight that you can't win. If I beat that old mans ass...I'm a looser. If he beats my ass I'm a looser. I can't win that fight.:razz:


That's one of the best theories I have read in awhile man. Thanks Chris!!!


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## Skip Morgart

Don Turnipseed said:


> ...... The only one that has mentioned dog fights is Chistopher and you. I can sit my dog next to me and Chistophers dog will do nothing. That is a fact. Dogs can read dogs. That is how far a sport dog will go to protect Chistopher in real life. That is fear.



No Don, Christopher never mentioned dog fights....I think any sane, intelligent mind knew exactly what he was saying, and it wasn't any dog fight. Now, conversely, I think any sane, intelligent mind sees how you are changing it around into a dog fight. I believe that even with my head up my ass I see that pretty clearly. AND I still think you should be thrown off the forum for even suggesting it.


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## Bob Scott

To many of the posts on here lately are getting way out of line.
This one is closed!




ETA

Also, any post in the future that sounds like setting up a dog fight will end with a banned member.

Mods


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