# Lure vs choosing in dog training



## Shade Whitesel (Aug 18, 2010)

Luring: driving while following a car to someone's house you have never been to before:
Pros: You got there the way that the "lurer" wanted. Cons: can you get there again by yourself?

Choosing: consulting a map and figuring out how to get there by yourself
Pros: you can probably get there again Cons: you might have chosen a different way than your teacher wanted.

Luring: holding food or ball in front of a dog's nose to teach them heeling
Choosing: capturing heel position with a marker, not showing the dog the position

Thoughts and discussion?


----------



## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Shade Whitesel said:


> Luring: driving while following a car to someone's house you have never been to before:
> Pros: You got there the way that the "lurer" wanted. Cons: can you get there again by yourself?
> 
> Choosing: consulting a map and figuring out how to get there by yourself
> ...


I think adding a map for choosing is going to far as dogs don't have a map. The dog can make a million left turns and never get there. 

A huge con with choosing (although self realization is great) is that it takes a great deal of time.

I think a combination is wonderful, and more descriptive of the map analogy. IE lure a dog into a heel and reward. Give them the idea the reward is there. down, sit, come, etc... Then you give the dog a choice. Then the dog is still making a choice to get a reward, just less than infinity, as it has an idea now what will get it food.


----------



## Shade Whitesel (Aug 18, 2010)

Actually dogs don't drive either so it is only meant as a human analogy. 

Perhaps if we reward the dog on each correct turn to give information so he doesn't make endless left turns?


I would agree that choosing is heavy on the front end of the dog figuring out how to do it right. But I would really disagree that it takes more time. The luring is heavy on the back end of the dog's learning as the trainer fades the lure. 

For me, luring the dog into the sit/down/stand/heel is not giving the dog a choice and gives the trainer a false sense of what the dog "knows". I am not really sure the dog knows anything other than following the food got it food. Moving it's body into position got it food, not so much....On the other hand, if it accidentallly gets to heel position on it's own and I reward, the dog figures out pretty quickly how to move it's body there, accidentally or not.


----------



## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

Shade, how do you start a dog/pup to track IPO style?


----------



## Shade Whitesel (Aug 18, 2010)

lure with food! But I change it to dog's choice, get the food, real quick. I want the dog to smell the track scent first, then food smell. I think that is pretty impossible if you put the food on top of the track which is why we are stuck putting the darn hotdogs in each footstep for a year. So I don't do that anymore.


----------



## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

Do you hide the food deep in the grass/bury it? Do you also use low value food (not hot dogs but a piece of kibble)? Asking because this is how I am training my pup (lowest value food and not visible on track).


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Shade I've been to your seminar and loved it. I just don't have the skills or patience to do it all with just leaving the choice up to the dog. 
With that said I haven't used a physical correction for some years now but I haven't taken that "tool" out of my tool chest.


----------



## Shade Whitesel (Aug 18, 2010)

I don't always leave it up to the dog either, Bob! After all, I want them to down and heel and track a certain way and it is not always how they would choose. 
Faisal, I don't use low value food because I don't want low intensity. I bury the food, bury the articles, use really tiny articles...


----------



## Shade Whitesel (Aug 18, 2010)

I am not against luring at all, I use it tons. I just think people get a really false sense of thinking their dog knows how to heel when they lure, they take the lure out, dog doesn't heel and then they correct, thinking the dog won't do it because there is no food, when that is exactly what they taught in the first place, how to follow the food, not how to heel. 
How is that for a run on sentence?!
And same for tracking, teaching to search for food, not for articles....


----------



## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

Creasy has high food drive so still getting nice intensity with low value food, keeping high value food in reserve for when things go south. Will definitely use tiny articles, thanks.


----------



## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

anything used in excess is usually never good but luring has many advantages to physical compulsion ... one of which is less conflict is injected ... another is opposition reflex tends to not come into play ... examples aren't limited to tracking of course

simple positions come to mind, 
.... and the stage of training is also relevant

the rate of training also comes into play ... how fast are you progressing and what results are you getting ? too fast without the results you are looking for is often when the luring and choosing stops and the compulsion starts

don't know if any of this is relevant tho 
... since to the dog, there are probably choices involved in each method


----------



## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

luring -- "induced capturing" ?? //lol//

luring -- beginnings of teaching by developing "correct" teaching muscle memory ?? 

i use the word mugging a lot to describe what i call excess luring.
more of a feeding session than a training session.
also, when to start fading out the lure is important to me too.

actually i'm getting confused  ... is luring being considered NOT giving the dog a choice ?

then again if a mark is never given, or rarely given, or given with poor timing, the whole positive aspect of luring kinda goes out the window, right ?


----------



## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

It's getting the first correct turn that takes so long. That is why I think a combination of luring and the dog figuring it out on it's own are important.

If I take a dog in a room and bait (lure) sits and downs and heels and comes with it, it is getting food immediately for something. He has no idea what maybe, but he knows he is getting food, in the room, from me. If you take your training momentum from the baiting to negative punishment and marking the correct behavior, I think it goes a lot faster than just letting the dog figure it out. 

The choice for the dog is still there if after luring a few, you wait the dog out to perform a behavior. Now he knows what has gotten him food, and he can choose to do it again. I do agree either way, once they discover how to operate the food button, things go much more quickly in most aspects of training.




Shade Whitesel said:


> Actually dogs don't drive either so it is only meant as a human analogy.
> 
> Perhaps if we reward the dog on each correct turn to give information so he doesn't make endless left turns?
> 
> ...


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Shade Whitesel said:


> Actually dogs don't drive either so it is only meant as a human analogy.
> 
> Perhaps if we reward the dog on each correct turn to give information so he doesn't make endless left turns?
> 
> ...


I've not had any issues with luring to a position. The dog quickly connects the dots on its the position that is being marked/rewarded and it doesn't take much for them to repeat it. Even with the dog being lured, he is still choosing. However, with modeling or physically putting then in the postion, they don't understand that as well. I free shape behaviors as well so I'm more of the combination type.

T


----------



## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Shade Whitesel said:


> I just think people get a really false sense of thinking their dog knows how to heel when they lure, they take the lure out, dog doesn't heel and then they correct, thinking the dog won't do it because there is no food, when that is exactly what they taught in the first place, how to follow the food, not how to heel.


I agree this is a common problem. Someone suggested putting the dog behind or out of eyesight to test a change of position. 

Wouldn't you agree that you can lure a dog into positions and thus give him an idea of minimal choices vs. waiting for what you want to show itself?

When is your next seminar?


----------



## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

re: "I just think people get a really false sense of thinking their dog knows how to heel when they lure, they take the lure out, dog doesn't heel and then they correct, thinking the dog won't do it because there is no food, when that is exactly what they taught in the first place, how to follow the food, not how to heel."

no matter what they might think, until they learn the difference between feeding and conditioning a trained response, they are not training
- feeding vice rewarding behavior
- "take the lure out" usually equals going too fast in the process
- big difference between playing with a dog using food and watching it run around and offer all sorts of behaviors than focussing on one aspect and TRAINING it
- good trainers have the finesse and apply training that others can't see, and that's why they have trouble getting consistent results

luring can often get a more precise response ... if the lure is precise

sounds simple ... but often isn't 
not really much to debate, and not so much what is right or wrong; just more ways to describe it and put it all together maybe ??

obviously the only way to know for sure when a response is trained is when you proof it


----------



## lannie dulin (Sep 4, 2012)

Shade Whitesel said:


> Luring: driving while following a car to someone's house you have never been to before:
> Pros: You got there the way that the "lurer" wanted. Cons: can you get there again by yourself?
> 
> Choosing: consulting a map and figuring out how to get there by yourself
> ...


I prefer lure first, and then choice. Using your car analogy: I'll show you how to get there about 20 times or so, then tell you to find your own way in hopes you'll say to yourself "this looks familiar, I'll turn here". Choice increases in proportion with how much the dog knows. Once the dog gets to the point where it starts offering behaviors I know I can start leaving room for more choice. However, keep in mind even luring is a form of choice. We don't pressure the dog into following the lure, it chooses to. We are just taking advantage of the dog's natural instinct and drive.


----------



## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

the car thing is a funny analogy....the human to dog analogies really don't apply across the board

someone can drive me somewhere i like to go 10 times and i still wouldn't be able to get there by myself unless someone told me in advance to remember the route ... 

- otoh, if the trip was made ten times in increments, a few blocks at a time, i might get it without having to think about it much

"mental" muscle memory .... applied to dogs ????

so i still say, go too fast, and the dog won't connect the dots 
go slow ... easy day to build it up

not so much the luring, per se, but the finesse with which it is used and faded


----------



## Marta Wajngarten (Jul 30, 2006)

Actually in the case of free shaping, I think a more accurate analogy using the driving example would be, you drive around with no map and no directions, taking one turn after another until you accidentally come across the first stop of many that leads to your final destination. 





Shade Whitesel said:


> Luring: driving while following a car to someone's house you have never been to before:
> Pros: You got there the way that the "lurer" wanted. Cons: can you get there again by yourself?
> 
> Choosing: consulting a map and figuring out how to get there by yourself
> ...


----------



## Shade Whitesel (Aug 18, 2010)

"Actually in the case of free shaping, I think a more accurate analogy using the driving example would be, you drive around with no map and no directions, taking one turn after another until you accidentally come across the first stop of many that leads to your final destination."

Wow! That would be a really bad teacher that is free shaping you! Now one that clicked and treated the first step on the gas and the first glance towards the first turn would be a much better trainer.....


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

I think Rick has a good way of putting it--induced capturing. You fade the lure as soon as possible. I think in looking at Shade's original post, I've seen people heeling with the tug under their arm. Take it away and the heeling falls apart. 

T


----------



## Shade Whitesel (Aug 18, 2010)

"I've seen people heeling with the tug under their arm. Take it away and the heeling falls apart."

Perhaps because the dog thinks that the cue to stargaze is to stare at the tug under the arm? But doesn't really know how to heel? And the handler thinks he taught the dog to heel....


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Shade Whitesel said:


> "I've seen people heeling with the tug under their arm. Take it away and the heeling falls apart."
> 
> Perhaps because the dog thinks that the cue to stargaze is to stare at the tug under the arm? But doesn't really know how to heel? And the handler thinks he taught the dog to heel....


Yes. But, I initially lure to heel position and then fade it and all my dogs understand the position is the desired behavior. 

T


----------



## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Dave Colborn said:


> When is your next seminar?


Shade,

I understand you're offering an online "seminar" at the Fenzi Institute? Could you post a pointer and some information ? ;-)


----------



## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

I have been thinking about luring, and I think the problem with luring is not in the method of itself, nor the fading....though that is a part of the process. But I think marker training and luring can both create a dog that follows the food. look at the dogs who have been marker trained that forge. They forge because they are following the reward. This is where proofing has to happen...it's what Fanny Gott calls reverse luring, and Edgar Scherkl calls provocation. basically at first you teach the dog to the follow the food to create a behavior you want. till the dog is offering the behavior upon first sight of movement of the lure. Then when this happens you have to try and lure the dog out of the behavior your asking for and then use some form of -R or -p to communicate to the dog that is not what you want. This teaches the dog that object is not follow the food but to perform the behavior. Marker trainers fail to do this also. This does not seem to be a problem in methods but generally I see this in green trainers, trainers who are not strict on their criteria, or just plain old sloppy trainers.


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

James Downey said:


> I have been thinking about luring, and I think the problem with luring is not in the method of itself, nor the fading....though that is a part of the process. But I think marker training and luring can both create a dog that follows the food. look at the dogs who have been marker trained that forge. They forge because they are following the reward. This is where proofing has to happen...it's what Fanny Gott calls reverse luring, and Edgar Scherkl calls provocation. basically at first you teach the dog to the follow the food to create a behavior you want. till the dog is offering the behavior upon first sight of movement of the lure. Then when this happens you have to try and lure the dog out of the behavior your asking for and then use some form of -R or -p to communicate to the dog that is not what you want. This teaches the dog that object is not follow the food but to perform the behavior. Marker trainers fail to do this also. This does not seem to be a problem in methods but generally I see this in green trainers, trainers who are not strict on their criteria, or just plain old sloppy trainers.


 
Next, you get rid of the reward on your body. 

T


----------



## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> .... I've seen people heeling with the tug under their arm. Take it away and the heeling falls apart.
> T


That's because they're doing it wrong. Ball/toy under the arm isn't supposed to be a lure, it's supposed to be a reward. You put it under the arm and the dog isn't lured into position, the dog is rewarded when he is in correct position because the ball magically appears when the dog is correct, not begging for the lure, staring at the arm pit. The reason the ball was put under the arm was because you could HIDE it and with very little motion, drop it, it's a reward NOT a lure when done correctly. When you train this way (correctly), you can soon move the ball ANYWHERE, you can hold it with your left hand, above the dogs head and to the left of the dogs head, but the dog will remain in correct position because he knows this is what he will eventually be rewarded for. While heeling, you can also throw the ball with your left hand, and the dog will remain in correct position because the ball is a reward NOT a lure, therefore the dog knows he must remain correct until released (breath sound, verbal or physical cue depending on your style) regardless of where the ball is.


----------



## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

James Downey said:


> Marker trainers fail to do this also. This does not seem to be a problem in methods but generally I see this in green trainers, trainers who are not strict on their criteria, or just plain old sloppy trainers.


Ya, it is not the method, it is the application. For sure the dog should be able to heel with food or a toy right behind it's head, or the other side of the body, or not present at all. It is not hard to achieve if you know (at least kinda) what you are doing.

Another reason I like to lure for some things is to imprint it with the energy/speed I want. Fading a lure is a skill for sure, but I have been able to manage it and like the results.

I have for sure been suprised when I thought my dog "knew" something, but didn't quite "know it" lol. Not talking about things I had lured with food or toys mind you. But maybe some things where leashes or other crutches were involved.

I use lures a lot (especially in ob) but I do think it is best when a dog can figure something out on their own, it really does make a strong behaviour. In my search work for example.


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Luring can be a useful tool but unless the dog understands markers (or corrections if used) then it's just following a hand with food/tug/ball in it. Nothing tells it "this is where I want you". Lure to long and the dog is being bribed then. No bribe, no performance!
Let the dog know when it's correct!


----------



## Louise Jollyman (Jun 2, 2009)

Kay Laurence talked about luring at the last clicker expo. She said that the lure should be faded within 5 repetitions, otherwise it will require a long and drawn out fading process. She trained a single behavior using luring, targeting and shaping and found that there was no difference in the outcome. She showed video of training one of her dogs to go round a cone using luring and showed the moment the dog "became operant" in that he started the behavior himself right before the lure, she then produced the lure later and later within the behavior to fade it fast.

I tend to be one of those people who just have to take a long time to fade a lure!


----------



## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Louise Jollyman said:


> Kay Laurence talked about luring at the last clicker expo. She said that the lure should be faded within 5 repetitions, otherwise it will require a long and drawn out fading process. She trained a single behavior using luring, targeting and shaping and found that there was no difference in the outcome. She showed video of training one of her dogs to go round a cone using luring and showed the moment the dog "became operant" in that he started the behavior himself right before the lure, she then produced the lure later and later within the behavior to fade it fast.
> 
> I tend to be one of those people who just have to take a long time to fade a lure!


I too have heard the lure should be faded after 5 or 6 reps but i dont see myself doing that,maybe the level of shaping of the behaviour that i require is higher.But you cant get away from rewarding or letting the dog know without question he is in the right spot is going to get results.I also like what James wrote made a lot of sense.


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

brad robert said:


> I too have heard the lure should be faded after 5 or 6 reps but i dont see myself doing that,maybe the level of shaping of the behaviour that i require is higher.But you cant get away from rewarding or letting the dog know without question he is in the right spot is going to get results.I also like what James wrote made a lot of sense.


 
Fading the lure does not mean fading the reward. The lure is to get the behavior. Once the dog starts offering without the lure, no need for it--gone. However, you would still mark/reward the behavior.


T


----------



## Jeffrey Eggenberger (Jan 3, 2013)

You can mark the position after luring.... I don't see the difference or the analogy.


----------



## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Fading the lure does not mean fading the reward. The lure is to get the behavior. Once the dog starts offering without the lure, no need for it--gone. However, you would still mark/reward the behavior.
> 
> 
> T


I realise that but that has not been my experience with pups or young dogs they dont always get what you want after 5 goes i think that is to generic all dogs are different.This is something im going to play with a few dogs and see the results.


----------



## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Rick Smith: 

re: "I just think people get a really false sense of thinking their dog knows how to heel when they lure, they take the lure out, dog doesn't heel and then they correct, thinking the dog won't do it because there is no food, when that is exactly what they taught in the first place, how to follow the food, not how to heel."

I realised this with my young Briard that he was just following the food. Also as he became aware that there was more to life than just me and food, the first sign of a distraction (horse in next field) (deer in forest) he left me for a short spin! 

So, Zuckerbrot und Peitsche :lol:

I stuffed a tug into the rear band of my track suit pants and compelled him to look up at me - slight tug when he looked away - reward when he looked up, sometimes verbally or tug.

As for burying an article on he track - this is not my favourite method. The uprooting of the earth gives up one lot of scent which can be scented from a few yards away. I've always used low scented kibble for my GSDs from pup onwards, no intensive smelling sausage, etc. (the crows usually get it anyway). The GSDs were track crazy anyway - the older one scented out a track without food on it on his first test track.

Most dogs a good few years back were trained on no food tracks - just reward at the articles and end. They were mostly good trackers.

The more you need to train - the more you have to do away with.


----------



## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Gillian Schuler said:


> Rick Smith:
> 
> re: "I just think people get a really false sense of thinking their dog knows how to heel when they lure, they take the lure out, dog doesn't heel and then they correct, thinking the dog won't do it because there is no food, when that is exactly what they taught in the first place, how to follow the food, not how to heel."
> 
> ...


Gillian good example with the Briard but was he working with you because he wanted to or because he had too? the former usually has a much better attitude in the work.


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

brad robert said:


> Gillian good example with the Briard but was he working with you because he wanted to or because he had too? the former usually has a much better attitude in the work.


how does a dog that works because he has to, look? and what if he wants to for reasons other than wht you are thinking?


----------



## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

brad robert said:


> Gillian good example with the Briard but was he working with you because he wanted to or because he had too? the former usually has a much better attitude in the work.


The Briard was a workaholic where obedience was concerned. Once I learned how to discipline him and reward - there was no looking back.

After I realised that he wasn't learning anything, following me around with my offering food, I used force (no tools) just mental and what did I get - a dog who didn't want to go on to the training ground. Thought again, realised I was doing something wrong - this was a bouncy dog - and met up with my new trainer (a one time pal of Lance Collins).

He showed me how to do the "Zuckerbrot und Peitsche" and from them on we never looked. Occasionally, I had to whisper threats to him on the 50 step at the start away from the judge we turned. Up to IPO 3 he had over 90 in obedience, once beating a crowd of Malinois and German Shepherds under a very strict judge.

I ruined him in tracking with too much anticipation and force and he didin't have the ideal helper from young onwards but he lead the field a few times!!


----------



## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Gillian Schuler said:


> The Briard was a workaholic where obedience was concerned. Once I learned how to discipline him and reward - there was no looking back.
> 
> After I realised that he wasn't learning anything, following me around with my offering food, I used force (no tools) just mental and what did I get - a dog who didn't want to go on to the training ground. Thought again, realised I was doing something wrong - this was a bouncy dog - and met up with my new trainer (a one time pal of Lance Collins).
> 
> ...


Thanks Gillian 


Joby Becker said:


> how does a dog that works because he has to, look? and what if he wants to for reasons other than wht you are thinking?


 The best way i can answer this Joby is that not all dogs are the same and wired the same(as u know)i have two particular dogs as an example one is exuberant in the work will drive and push you to just do heeling and is a show off and has incredible focus and always has from a pup and the other had to be taught focus from the ground up and would basically rather be off doing something else but works because she has to and also a smalll part to do what i say and please me but her attitude is not the same or as driven and happy as the former....hope that made some part of sense


----------



## Shade Whitesel (Aug 18, 2010)

Brad, I think that if a puppy has a history in shaping, they will be more likely to offer behaviors after only being lured 5 times. If they don't know that offering behaviors gets marked and rewarded, I am not sure you could fade the lure so quickly...
I am finding with my young pup, who I have done tons of clicker shaping with, is very very quick to catch on and I can fade the lure fast. Of course, he's never even heard the word No at this point, so offering behaviors, good and obnoxious, comes easily to him!


----------



## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

Shade ... from the dog's p.o.v. 
wouldn't you think that it mostly boils down to the dog learning that a lure means "i gotta move" rather than "ok, i can find the food there too" ??

little hard to put in words....but the hardest part of luring (with food) for me is when i want the dog to stabilize after a lure, and my hand has the reward so the dog naturally wants to get to it and starts "mugging" rather than learning that the objective is to "stay put" in that particular position. it doesn't seem to matter if i'm hiding the treat, or not even holding anything, not since the scent is there anyway

maybe pull the treat hand farther away when getting it to "hold" ??? with prey driven dogs that often has the opposite effect of what i want :-(

sometimes i think i'm getting better ... until i realize it's just a better dog //lol//


----------



## Shade Whitesel (Aug 18, 2010)

With luring you tend to get alot of mugging the hand. I can't stand getting my fingers bit so I teach non mugging from the get go. So I get stationary behaviors pretty quickly. Hand still means stand still, hand moving means follow or target.


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Shade Whitesel said:


> With luring you tend to get alot of mugging the hand. I can't stand getting my fingers bit so I teach non mugging from the get go. So I get stationary behaviors pretty quickly. Hand still means stand still, hand moving means follow or target.


 
Same here. James Downey posted some time ago something about working with this. I have to be careful with this. Down is the first behavior mine learned. If I hold the reward too long, they will offer that. The only thing I can think of that the lure might sitll be somewhat active is sit in heel position. They go through a period of jumping up but figure it out eventually. Initially, my hand might be over head, then towards the center of my body. Next, no lure and hand by my side. I think that's the typical process. 

T


----------



## Katie Karhohs (Oct 23, 2011)

Shade Whitesel said:


> With luring you tend to get alot of mugging the hand. I can't stand getting my fingers bit so I teach non mugging from the get go. So I get stationary behaviors pretty quickly. Hand still means stand still, hand moving means follow or target.


 
Shade - at what age do you introduce the word no? And how do you stop mugging if youre not using No?


----------



## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Katie, welcome .....

Please do the required intro/bio at http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f20/ 

Thank you!


----------



## Shade Whitesel (Aug 18, 2010)

I am going to try really hard not to say No to this pup. It is really easy to stop mugging behavior by just waiting it out, marking and rewarding with food from mugged hand when dog stops mugging. No need for verbal or physical correction, dog figures out how to get food on his own without mugging.


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

I trained one dog with the idea that he didn't have a "because I say so" button. "No" was information. It means "that's not what I want, try again." He would just offer another behavior. I conditioned "no" with my latest two. Has come in handy with distance work as a verbal punishment that stops the behavior. Doesn't effect the drive at all. Once they learn that biting on the hand doesn't release the reward and/or its not desired, that goes away. 

T


----------

