# Vaccine Suggestions



## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

I recently posted problems with dogs dieing from disease in Costa Rica. Very few dog owners there bother to vaccinate. Canine disease is a huge issue and it's how most dogs die in C.R.

My 2 dogs will go with me when I retire in there.

I understand the anti vaccine rational of many people on this and other forums.

If you were going to a area where dog disease was so prevalent would you feel differently about regular scheduled vaccinations?


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## Becky Shilling (Jul 11, 2006)

I would still check titers and re-vaccinate as needed.


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Becky Shilling said:


> I would still check titers and re-vaccinate as needed.


I plan on vaccinating there using a schedule recommended by my vet here in the U.S. It would be interesting to hear opinions from those who don't typically vaccinate.

Would anyone deviate from a schedule recommended by the U.S. vet in such a disease prone area?


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## Becky Shilling (Jul 11, 2006)

The majority of US vets recommend once yearly (Which is not even the AVMA's stance anymore). 
That is slowly changing, but for now, that's what most say. I can understand their point of view; yearly vacc is the only time some dogs see their vet, and it's also a $$$$ issue. Vacc are the highest profit-generator in vet medicine. DHLP-Pv-C and Rabies involves a cost of about $2.25 versus a charge of $25.00 to $75.00 depending on your vet.

Here in OK, we are a high rabies area and for my dogs' (mostly legal) protection, we vaccinate for rabies every three years as required by law. It used to be yearly, but the law has FINALLY recognized a 3 yr rabies vacc.

If your dog has an acceptable titer to a disease, there is no reason on earth to re-vaccinate him.


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Hi Becky - Can you explain "titer". I haven't heard that terminology before.


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## kristin tresidder (Oct 23, 2008)

Lee H Sternberg said:


> Hi Becky - Can you explain "titer". I haven't heard that terminology before.



a 'titer test' is a blood test that measures the level of an antibody to a certain virus in the dog's body. the most common applications of the test are for rabies, parvo & distemper. countries like sweden and australia that do not have rabies require titer testing in addition to an extensive shot record for any dog being imported into the country to ensure that they will not bring in the disease.

here is a page http://www.caberfeidh.com/CanineTiters.htm that explains the tests and their purpose in a bit more detail.


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

kristin tresidder said:


> a 'titer test' is a blood test that measures the level of an antibody to a certain virus in the dog's body. the most common applications of the test are for rabies, parvo & distemper. countries like sweden and australia that do not have rabies require titer testing in addition to an extensive shot record for any dog being imported into the country to ensure that they will not bring in the disease.
> 
> here is a page http://www.caberfeidh.com/CanineTiters.htm that explains the tests and their purpose in a bit more detail.


Thanks, Kristen:smile:


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Becky Shilling said:


> If your dog has an acceptable titer to a disease, there is no reason on earth to re-vaccinate him.


Actually, that's not strictly true. Titers measure the amount of immunoglobulin (usually IgG) a dog/cat/person/whatever has, which is part of humoral immunity which uses B cells that secrete immunoglobulin (AKA: antibodies). Some diseases do not work through humoral immunity and they work through cell-mediated immunity so that your T cells have to go in and fight because antibody doesn't "see" the invading pathogens inside the infected cells. Having "high" antibody titers are only part of the picture. However, for most of your core vaccines like distemper and parvo, they are considered a pretty good indication as a general rule. However, a dog (or cat or person) can have a low titer and not get the disease following infection OR they can have a very higih titer and still get the disease. We really don't know why. And a good rule of thumb for everyone to remember: vaccines don't prevent infection, but they can prevent clinical disease. Nothing in immunology is fool proof. :smile:


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## Becky Shilling (Jul 11, 2006)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Nothing in immunology is fool proof. :smile:



No absolutes in dealing with living organisms. :smile:


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## Lyn Chen (Jun 19, 2006)

I've had dogs in such areas that were vaccinated minimally, some not at all. I still believe diet and proper care (not letting them roam, keeping an eye out for any changes) will have as much of an impact as the issue of vaccination.


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Lyn Chen said:


> I've had dogs in such areas that were vaccinated minimally, some not at all. I still believe diet and proper care (not letting them roam, keeping an eye out for any changes) will have as much of an impact as the issue of vaccination.


That's good to hear. I know a big part of the problem is created by roaming dogs. My dogs will never roam, but all the others do.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Lyn Chen said:


> I've had dogs in such areas that were vaccinated minimally, some not at all. I still believe diet and proper care (not letting them roam, keeping an eye out for any changes) will have as much of an impact as the issue of vaccination.


I think there's basically a balance you have to strike and weigh risks and benefits of vaccinations and no vaccinations (as there are risks and benefits to both). On one side, I think that people who intentionally do not vaccinate for anything, including rabies, may be in for a nasty surprise if their dog is seized for biting someone and they have to either have to have the dog's head come off or it has to be on a very strict 6 month quarantine. And there's no denying that we see a ton less distemper and parvo than we used to. 

On the other hand, we create other problems. Many average clients think the only reason to come in for a yearly vet visit is "for the shots" and they want nothing to do with a good physical, heartworm test, and a fecal, which are honestly way more important in detecting potential signs of a problem. I feel like many vets do not do an adequate job of showing the value in a thorough exam, so all the clients see is it costs $15 for distemper/parvo and $20 for rabies and they balk at the $30-50 for the exam. Probably not realizing how much it costs if you're paying your physician, eye doctor, or dentist out of pocket for an exam if you don't have insurance (this price is more than fair). So then they just go to the feed store or catalogue, buy their shots (which may be improperly stored, handled, mixed, or given, negating their effects) and think they are good and the dog doesn't need to see the doc that year. That is the wrong approach for preventative medicine.

From a holistic perspective, absolutely good nutrition and good sense in general is certainly necessary. And we should be judicious with our use of vaccines for certain (as Fawkes got very sick after his distemper/parvo vaccine at 11 weeks old, I understand this well). But the no vaccines at all crowd often doesn't realize that herd health only protects if 70% of the population is immune through exposure/vaccination. If the majority stops doing it and there's still some out there, it can become a big problem. That's why they are now vaccinating the troops heading to Iraq/Afghanistan for smallpox from bioterrorism. So if you want to be a minimal vaccinator and check titers (as I do), that's great. But I disagree with those who don't vaccinate at all AND with those who insist that there is a need to vaccinate every animal every single year for every single thing.


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## Michele McAtee (Apr 10, 2006)

Great post Maren.


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> I think there's basically a balance you have to strike and weigh risks and benefits of vaccinations and no vaccinations (as there are risks and benefits to both). On one side, I think that people who intentionally do not vaccinate for anything, including rabies, may be in for a nasty surprise if their dog is seized for biting someone and they have to either have to have the dog's head come off or it has to be on a very strict 6 month quarantine. And there's no denying that we see a ton less distemper and parvo than we used to.
> 
> On the other hand, we create other problems. Many average clients think the only reason to come in for a yearly vet visit is "for the shots" and they want nothing to do with a good physical, heartworm test, and a fecal, which are honestly way more important in detecting potential signs of a problem. I feel like many vets do not do an adequate job of showing the value in a thorough exam, so all the clients see is it costs $15 for distemper/parvo and $20 for rabies and they balk at the $30-50 for the exam. Probably not realizing how much it costs if you're paying your physician, eye doctor, or dentist out of pocket for an exam if you don't have insurance (this price is more than fair). So then they just go to the feed store or catalogue, buy their shots (which may be improperly stored, handled, mixed, or given, negating their effects) and think they are good and the dog doesn't need to see the doc that year. That is the wrong approach for preventative medicine.
> 
> From a holistic perspective, absolutely good nutrition and good sense in general is certainly necessary. And we should be judicious with our use of vaccines for certain (as Fawkes got very sick after his distemper/parvo vaccine at 11 weeks old, I understand this well). But the no vaccines at all crowd often doesn't realize that herd health only protects if 70% of the population is immune through exposure/vaccination. If the majority stops doing it and there's still some out there, it can become a big problem. That's why they are now vaccinating the troops heading to Iraq/Afghanistan for smallpox from bioterrorism. So if you want to be a minimal vaccinator and check titers (as I do), that's great. But I disagree with those who don't vaccinate at all AND with those who insist that there is a need to vaccinate every animal every single year for every single thing.


 Hi Maren Bell - That was a well written and thought out post in my opinion. It made total sense to me. So, if you were going to put your dogs into the environment I described in both of these threads, what would you do?

I should also point out vet skills vary widely in C.R. In the two areas I lived in before when I was there, one was great and the other was marginal and scared of my Rott. I used to call here to the U.S. and describe symptoms to my long term vet when I needed help. I don't know what quality of care I will receive this area.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Maren,

I hd a DHLPP titer done on my dog. $170 later, my vet says, the dog's levels are normal, but may not stand up to a very high challenge so I should vaccinate anyway.

That makes no sense to me. (I didn't vaccinate again.)

Can you explain?


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

On the other hand, we create other problems. Many average clients think the only reason to come in for a yearly vet visit is "for the shots" and they want nothing to do with a good physical, heartworm test, and a fecal, which are honestly way more important in detecting potential signs of a problem. I feel like many vets do not do an adequate job of showing the value in a thorough exam, so all the clients see is it costs $15 for distemper/parvo and $20 for rabies and they balk at the $30-50 for the exam. 
[/QUOTE]

Small rant. 

Maybe if the vet actually did a thorough exam, instead of just having a quick look over my dog, followed by a recommendation for a Hill's diet, I'd come in for an annual without vaccinations. I leave feeling like the vet didn't even look at my file before I got there. (hill's=chicken, dog with food sensitivities/allergies) The vet hasn't seen my dog for a year. Tell me something about my dog that I'm not already aware of.

Yeah, I know, I need to find a new vet.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Anne Vaini said:


> Maren,
> 
> I hd a DHLPP titer done on my dog. $170 later, my vet says, the dog's levels are normal, but may not stand up to a very high challenge so I should vaccinate anyway.
> 
> ...


They probably only did a distemper/parvo titer, not the rest of them. They haven't established a great titer for Leptospirosis for what is really protective yet as far as I've heard, as it has numerous serovarieties (serovars) in dogs from the one species of _Leptospira interogans_. If I recall, there are seven serovars and the most common in dogs are canicola, pomona, icterohemorrhagiae, and grippotyphosa. And only recently has there been a decent vaccine from Fort Dodge that actually covers the four serovars that most commonly affect dogs, as the previous ones had just covered icterohemorrhagiae and canicola. Supposedly it uses a different technology which is supposed to decrease the chance of reaction. But I honestly don't know much about it. Lepto, unlike parvo and distemper viruses, is a bacteria and may not confer longer immunitiy like a modified live viral vaccine would. That's why they say Lepto and _Borrelia burgdorferi_ (Lyme disease) should be given year if endemic to your area.

As I'm not your vet and I have to not put words in their mouth as a student,  I guess what they are trying to say is that if your dog is in or around animal shelters or animal hospitals or dog parks and they get a bigger dose of virus (particularly if your dog is immunocompromised), the immune system may not be able to throw it off. Emphasizing the fact I'm still a student...I would say that parvo is typically a disease of dogs less than a year old (the virus attacks rapidly dividing cells, like those in the gut) and distemper is becoming more rare. The parainfluenza (one of the Ps in DHLPP) causes infectious tracheobronchitis (one of the canine respiratory disease complex viruses that causes kennel cough), so it's not a huge deal for most dogs unless they get a secondary bacterial infection and get pneumonia.

For titers in the future, you or your vet may contact the vet school at Madison to send the blood off since you're in Wisconsin. At our vet school, we get the distemper/parvo titers run for about $50 for both of them (not including exam fees) through the clinical pathology/diagnostic lab. Probably cheaper than sending them off to an independent lab (which is what most private practice vets do).


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

leslie cassian said:


> Small rant.
> 
> Maybe if the vet actually did a thorough exam, instead of just having a quick look over my dog, followed by a recommendation for a Hill's diet, I'd come in for an annual without vaccinations. I leave feeling like the vet didn't even look at my file before I got there. (hill's=chicken, dog with food sensitivities/allergies) The vet hasn't seen my dog for a year. Tell me something about my dog that I'm not already aware of.
> 
> Yeah, I know, I need to find a new vet.


I agree. If you don't like their bedside manner and you don't feel like your money is going towards going over a thorough physical and history, certainly find a new vet.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Lee H Sternberg said:


> Hi Maren Bell - That was a well written and thought out post in my opinion. It made total sense to me. So, if you were going to put your dogs into the environment I described in both of these threads, what would you do?
> 
> I should also point out vet skills vary widely in C.R. In the two areas I lived in before when I was there, one was great and the other was marginal and scared of my Rott. I used to call here to the U.S. and describe symptoms to my long term vet when I needed help. I don't know what quality of care I will receive this area.


Thanks! If I were bringing my dogs down there, I'd get every titer I could on all of them, particularly rabies. Distemper is bad and parvo is no picnic, but rabies would definitely be endemic down there and there's no coming back from rabies. If there was any question of the levels, I'd honestly probably go and revaccinate. In those kinds of situations, it's often more of a public health issue for YOU and your family, not just your dogs. The people who don't vaccinate for rabies probably have never seen a human die of rabies. As much as I don't like overvaccinating, rabies is something that's a public health issue that should be done. To see what I mean, here's a child dying of rabies (it's really hard to watch):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dScdr8Dly4g

In addition, having them on a monthly anthelminthic like Heartgard that kills intestinal round worms is a good idea too. If you can find a vet who can do a twice a year fecal float/smear, that'd be great. Just never know what's in the soil...


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Thanks! If I were bringing my dogs down there, I'd get every titer I could on all of them, particularly rabies. Distemper is bad and parvo is no picnic, but rabies would definitely be endemic down there and there's no coming back from rabies. If there was any question of the levels, I'd honestly probably go and revaccinate. In those kinds of situations, it's often more of a public health issue for YOU and your family, not just your dogs. The people who don't vaccinate for rabies probably have never seen a human die of rabies. As much as I don't like overvaccinating, rabies is something that's a public health issue that should be done. To see what I mean, here's a child dying of rabies (it's really hard to watch):
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dScdr8Dly4g
> 
> In addition, having them on a monthly anthelminthic like Heartgard that kills intestinal round worms is a good idea too. If you can find a vet who can do a twice a year fecal float/smear, that'd be great. Just never know what's in the soil...



Thanks for all the help!:smile:


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Thanks everyone for your help with this discussion.:smile:


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> They probably only did a distemper/parvo titer, not the rest of them. They haven't established a great titer for Leptospirosis for what is really protective yet as far as I've heard, as it has numerous serovarieties (serovars) in dogs from the one species of _Leptospira interogans_. If I recall, there are seven serovars and the most common in dogs are canicola, pomona, icterohemorrhagiae, and grippotyphosa. And only recently has there been a decent vaccine from Fort Dodge that actually covers the four serovars that most commonly affect dogs, as the previous ones had just covered icterohemorrhagiae and canicola. Supposedly it uses a different technology which is supposed to decrease the chance of reaction. But I honestly don't know much about it. Lepto, unlike parvo and distemper viruses, is a bacteria and may not confer longer immunitiy like a modified live viral vaccine would. That's why they say Lepto and _Borrelia burgdorferi_ (Lyme disease) should be given year if endemic to your area.
> 
> As I'm not your vet and I have to not put words in their mouth as a student,  I guess what they are trying to say is that if your dog is in or around animal shelters or animal hospitals or dog parks and they get a bigger dose of virus (particularly if your dog is immunocompromised), the immune system may not be able to throw it off. Emphasizing the fact I'm still a student...I would say that parvo is typically a disease of dogs less than a year old (the virus attacks rapidly dividing cells, like those in the gut) and distemper is becoming more rare. The parainfluenza (one of the Ps in DHLPP) causes infectious tracheobronchitis (one of the canine respiratory disease complex viruses that causes kennel cough), so it's not a huge deal for most dogs unless they get a secondary bacterial infection and get pneumonia.
> 
> For titers in the future, you or your vet may contact the vet school at Madison to send the blood off since you're in Wisconsin. At our vet school, we get the distemper/parvo titers run for about $50 for both of them (not including exam fees) through the clinical pathology/diagnostic lab. Probably cheaper than sending them off to an independent lab (which is what most private practice vets do).


Thanks for the tip about saving $ on titers! 

I think you are right about it being parvo/distemper. I don't vaccinate for Lepto or Lyme anyway. I've been using DA2PP.


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## Michele McAtee (Apr 10, 2006)

These two books were recommended to me to further my knowledge about vaccination:

http://leerburg.com/965.htm

http://leerburg.com/977.htm

I purchased them and read them. Excellent reference material IMO.


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## Lyn Chen (Jun 19, 2006)

Maren, probably something to consider, what are the chances of your dog getting rabies from the vaccine itself? What precautions can you take after the rabies vaccine is given?


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Lyn Chen said:


> Maren, probably something to consider, what are the chances of your dog getting rabies from the vaccine itself?


As far as I know, only killed vaccine is used all over the country.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Lyn Chen said:


> Maren, probably something to consider, what are the chances of your dog getting rabies from the vaccine itself? What precautions can you take after the rabies vaccine is given?


Zero. Horror movie stuff aside, ALL rabies viruses are killed at least in this country. This is done because when rabies viruses were first released decades ago, they were modified live and a very small number of cats apparently had the vaccine virus revert to virulence. Which was obviously very bad, so now all rabies vaccines use killed only. This is the two fold reason why rabies vaccines tend to be more problematic:

1) they have to use a much higher dose of killed virus so the immune system recognizes it (because it is a public health issue for humans and not just for dogs or cats, they have to make sure it works)

2) they also have to use a lot of adjuvant to make the immune system nice and angry to mount a response against it. The adjuvant is what seems to be the big issue with fibrosarcoma in some cats and whatnot. This is why rabies vaccines for cats are usually injected in the right rear leg (RRR=rabies right rear) instead of the scruff of the neck in case they get a fibrosarcoma and the leg has to be amputated. 

The biggest precautions to have that I've heard so far is a supply of Benedryl on hand and watch closely for possible acute allergic reaction. Your vet can let you know of the dose to give if the signs show up. I've heard of some holistic vets having other methods, but I will defer those to them.


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