# What/how to correct



## Emmie Lieberman

I am getting my tervuren pup on the 10th of December. It will be my first time raising a pup for an type of sport. The breeder says she is very bold, loves to tug, and loves to bite. She is very rough and often gets carried away- trying to jump p and bite and people's face. I know that I can't be letting her chomp on me all the time. What should I be correcting and how should I do it without ruining he natural drive?


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## rick smith

you could start by reviewing the recent post about getting a KNPV pup. LOTS of good advice there

btw, how have you handled other dogs that like to bite and play rough ?

i would say simply by establishing a good bond with the pup, but MANY others would strongly disagree //lol//

best of luck and keep us posted with detailed questions and/or clips of your adventure


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## Emmie Lieberman

Thanks! I'll check that thread out. 
With Quinn, my Doberman, I have always just turned sharply away, almost turning my back to him, if he got carried away. That seemed to get the point across. Of course, he is the type of dog that shatters if you look at him with a hint of disapproval.


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## Joby Becker

Emmie Lieberman said:


> Thanks! I'll check that thread out.
> With Quinn, my Doberman, I have always just turned sharply away, almost turning my back to him, if he got carried away. That seemed to get the point across. Of course, he is the type of dog that shatters if you look at him with a hint of disapproval.


that method probably wont work well with your new pup, it might, but I doubt it...


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## Thomas Barriano

Emmie,

If you got a puppy to do sport work? Then expect to bleed once in a while  I would redirect not correct for the most part. Get a tug or rag that the dog can play tug with and use that when he starts nipping at your legs. What kind of sport do you plan on doing?


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## Emmie Lieberman

Thomas Barriano said:


> Emmie,
> 
> If you got a puppy to do sport work? Then expect to bleed once in a while  I would redirect not correct for the most part. Get a tug or rag that the dog can play tug with and use that when he starts nipping at your legs. What kind of sport do you plan on doing?


That's what I was thinking- maybe just redirect. I have a leather shamee and a jute tug. I hope to get into schutzhund.


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## Alice Bezemer

guess I will throw in my 2 cents again even tho rick said it best and you should check the KNPV topic.

what you do not want to deal with later as a problem, you do not allow now!

No biting on the hand that feeds it. Biting is allowed on its toys and playthings and in training and apart from that should not be allowed. A dog is very quick to understand that. 

Redirecting a bite to a tug or toy is redirecting a problem. You are not solving anything you are only shifting the problem to another area and it doesn't learn the dog anything. Stop worrying about drive and just let it be a pup and tell it when it does something that it should not do. Sure, a 2 month old Tervurenaar is easy to redirect to a rag or tug, now imagine that pup fully grown and biting your ass, try and get it to redirect then because it never learned that biting the hand that feeds it wasn't allowed.


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## Michael Murphy

Emmie Lieberman said:


> Thanks! I'll check that thread out.
> With Quinn, my Doberman, I have always just turned sharply away, almost turning my back to him, if he got carried away. That seemed to get the point across. Of course, *he is the type of dog that shatters if you look at him with a hint of disapproval*.


lol i highly doubt my pup would notice that, she seems to get worse everyday, i got bite marks everywhere. im trying to redirect but she has so much drive i find myself giving her a little smack here and there, does not diminish that drive at all :-o


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## Kevin Rowland

Alice Bezemer said:


> guess I will throw in my 2 cents again even tho rick said it best and you should check the KNPV topic.
> 
> what you do not want to deal with later as a problem, you do not allow now!
> 
> No biting on the hand that feeds it. Biting is allowed on its toys and playthings and in training and apart from that should not be allowed. A dog is very quick to understand that.
> 
> Redirecting a bite to a tug or toy is redirecting a problem. You are not solving anything you are only shifting the problem to another area and it doesn't learn the dog anything. Stop worrying about drive and just let it be a pup and tell it when it does something that it should not do. Sure, a 2 month old Tervurenaar is easy to redirect to a rag or tug, now imagine that pup fully grown and biting your ass, try and get it to redirect then because it never learned that biting the hand that feeds it wasn't allowed.


Alice gave me this advice awhile back...and she was right. I tried redirecting and being somewhat passive at first but it did not work for my Mal.
When I started correcting the pup as Alice suggested the biting stopped and she did not lose her prey drive.


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## Joby Becker

Michael Murphy said:


> lol i highly doubt my pup would notice that, she seems to get worse everyday, i got bite marks everywhere. im trying to redirect but she has so much drive i find myself giving her a little smack here and there, does not diminish that drive at all :-o


personally I dont smack, i let the pup smack itself on my elbow or fist...they learn pretty quick thats no fun.


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## Laura Bollschweiler

Emmie, is the breeder experienced in protection sports? 

To those that are saying to redirect, how does redirecting look different from rewarding? 

Laura


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## Matt Vandart

Joby Becker said:


> personally I dont smack, i let the pup smack itself on my elbow or fist...they learn pretty quick thats no fun.


This sounds a bit weird but what I do when a pup is buying my hands is I push my fist further into its mouth, not hard like a punch, just steady push. This usually solves the problem first go. If the pup continues I tend to grab its muzzle inspect its teeth while talking shit rapidly to it. Yes unconventional but this works for me.


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## Guy Williams

Laura Bollschweiler said:


> Emmie, is the breeder experienced in protection sports?
> 
> To those that are saying to redirect, how does redirecting look different from rewarding?
> 
> Laura


The pup wants to bite. It has very little self control. When it is in biting mood, simply redirect onto something more appropriate. This is a delaying tactic until the pup has the self control to learn the rules.

Very soon (the pup will dictate when) it will have the self control to learn rules - bite when told/stop when told. Then any attempts to bite unwanted things can be stopped with the stop command. If the pup persists it can do a time out with the kids!!

No conflict. No risk of creating hand shyness. No bite inhibition. The pup grows up trusting and confident. 

Any use of averisves/punishment/threat is a step towards making the dog less confident and more likely to have bite inhibition. Most good potential working dogs are resilient enough to cope with this but if you're looking for the risk free option - redirect would be my preferred option every time. 

It wouldn't be fun if we all agreed!


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## Hunter Allred

if a puppy bites me, I don't correct them per se... I don't bother redirecting (I don't feel that does anything but sidestep the issue), but I feel they are too young to correct. I scream like it hurts (just like another dog would). I think their (developing) empathy coupled with being perhaps a little startled, stops the biting.

If the puppy bites harder when I scream like a banshee... then, atleast he'll be good in bitework lol


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## Joby Becker

Hunter Allred said:


> if a puppy bites me, I don't correct them per se... I don't bother redirecting (I don't feel that does anything but sidestep the issue), but I feel they are too young to correct. I scream like it hurts (just like another dog would). I think their (developing) empathy coupled with being perhaps a little startled, stops the biting.
> 
> *If the puppy bites harder when I scream like a banshee... then, atleast he'll be good in bitework lo*l


...


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## Joby Becker

little pups I dont do much...once they are old enough I do things that make them change their minds..

say the pup is 4-5 months, or whatever, I already know whats up with the pup and lets say the pup likes to fly over and jump up and try to clamp onto something, that is when the pup finds itself crashing into an uncomfortable part of my body such as an elbow or a fist or whatever. 

I never correct or swing at the pup, I do not yell, or react, or show any signs that I did it, or that it is a correction of any kind..never created loss of drive or hand shyness in any dog I have owned. 

I look at it as the dog corrects itself, and they always do correct themselves and modify their own behavior, once or twice is usually enough, unless the dog is a real meathead.


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## Alice Bezemer

Pups have little control? Time out with the kids? Redirecting untill pup has self control to learn rules? Screaming like a banshee! :lol: I can see many a vocal cord suffering with this solution.....

And my favorite... The pup will indicate when it has self control to learn rules...


Gheez louise! Might as well ask the pup to please not bite and hand it a cookie and milk why you're at it. *insert very big rolling eyes here please* 

Pups are not human, stop treating them as if they were. Pups are not stupid, stop treating them as if they were. Pups learn by action and reaction, pretty much as nature dictates and they learn from the moment they take their first breath. 

Redirecting anything is nothing more then shifting a problem somewhere else and the pup learns nothing more then any time it bites you it gets redirected... it doesn't learn not to bite you! It doesn't learn biting you is not good, it learns to keep you busy with redirecting tho.. trust me the pup is not stupid, it learns pretty damn quick that its nipping you will get it what it want which is mostly attention.

People should understand something about drives and how to keep them where they are... Correction is NOT only about telling a pup not to bite the hand that feeds it, its about the complete picture or correction and reward! When you correct unwanted behaviour you immediately reward the wanted behaviour which it displays afterwards IE the NOT BITING THE HAND THAT FEEDS IT! 

*insert whopping big head shake here*


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## Gillian Schuler

Jeez Louise 

When I saw you had written a reply, I thought "sit back" and read it. You didn't disappoint me. 

This is just pure common or garden sense and you gave it to them [-o<


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## Hunter Allred

Alice Bezemer said:


> Pups have little control? Time out with the kids? Redirecting untill pup has self control to learn rules? Screaming like a banshee! :lol: I can see many a vocal cord suffering with this solution.....
> 
> And my favorite... The pup will indicate when it has self control to learn rules...
> 
> 
> Gheez louise! Might as well ask the pup to please not bite and hand it a cookie and milk why you're at it. *insert very big rolling eyes here please*
> 
> Pups are not human, stop treating them as if they were. Pups are not stupid, stop treating them as if they were. Pups learn by action and reaction, pretty much as nature dictates and they learn from the moment they take their first breath.
> 
> Redirecting anything is nothing more then shifting a problem somewhere else and the pup learns nothing more then any time it bites you it gets redirected... it doesn't learn not to bite you! It doesn't learn biting you is not good, it learns to keep you busy with redirecting tho.. trust me the pup is not stupid, it learns pretty damn quick that its nipping you will get it what it want which is mostly attention.
> 
> People should understand something about drives and how to keep them where they are... Correction is NOT only about telling a pup not to bite the hand that feeds it, its about the complete picture or correction and reward! When you correct unwanted behaviour you immediately reward the wanted behaviour which it displays afterwards IE the NOT BITING THE HAND THAT FEEDS IT!
> 
> *insert whopping big head shake here*


When I scream, I'm actually trying to do what another dog does when another plays too rough... When one dog yelps in distress during play, unless its an asshole without social skills, the dog will stop doing what he is doing.. That's why nature invited yelping and crying and such... To communicate distress.


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## Joby Becker

Hunter Allred said:


> When I scream, I'm actually trying to do what another dog does when another plays too rough... When one dog yelps in distress during play, unless its an asshole without social skills, the dog will stop doing what he is doing.. That's why nature invited yelping and crying and such... To communicate distress.


must be nice to have non asshole pups...lol 

litter I had..a 9 week old pup that grabbed the co-owners wrist, clamped down and started yanking her into a varikennel, humping back like a big ole SCH dog..while she was screaming away.and had to be pried off..LOL

There are lots and lots of asshole puppies out there for sure, that would delight in the yelps and screams of something they are biting and "fighting" and/or "playing" with...... 

another pup would walk around the box at 5 weeks old and grab the hams of the other pups while they were sleeping and shake the piss out of them...

while I do see you point, for me that philosophy applies to dogs and older pups more so than young puppies. Most of the litters of puppies I have had, I have had to separate the pups becuase they start to fight and injure eachother, sometimes seriously..and yelping sometimes does not make any difference..


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## Laura Bollschweiler

Hunter Allred said:


> When I scream, I'm actually trying to do what another dog does when another plays too rough... When one dog yelps in distress during play, unless its an asshole without social skills, the dog will stop doing what he is doing.. That's why nature invited yelping and crying and such... To communicate distress.


Just thinking out loud...but you're not another dog. Do you want puppy to think you are? I understand communicating in the way the dogs understand, but can't I teach the dog to understand my way instead of pretending I'm a dog?

Laura


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## Joby Becker

I use simliar methods when I want to encourage biting actually, come to think of it...


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## Hunter Allred

Joby Becker said:


> must be nice to have non asshole pups...lol
> 
> litter I had..a 9 week old pup that grabbed the co-owners wrist, clamped down and started yanking her into a varikennel, humping back like a big ole SCH dog..while she was screaming away.and had to be pried off..LOL
> 
> There are lots and lots of asshole puppies out there for sure, that would delight in the yelps and screams of something they are biting and "fighting" and/or "playing" with......
> 
> another pup would walk around the box at 5 weeks old and grab the hams of the other pups while they were sleeping and shake the piss out of them...
> 
> while I do see you point, for me that philosophy applies to dogs and older pups more so than young puppies. Most of the litters of puppies I have had, I have had to separate the pups becuase they start to fight and injure eachother, sometimes seriously..and yelping sometimes does not make any difference..


Well, never had to deal with 2 pups at once, but I'm sure there are some social sorting going on there right? Surely the puppies, left to their desires, wouldn't have a single elimination tournament till one was left... that goes against millions of years of evolution-honed instincts.

But yeah it works far better in older puppies/dogs who have fully developed social behaviors. Same for humans


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## Hunter Allred

Laura Bollschweiler said:


> Just thinking out loud...but you're not another dog. Do you want puppy to think you are? I understand communicating in the way the dogs understand, but can't I teach the dog to understand my way instead of pretending I'm a dog?
> 
> Laura


If you pinched me and I screamed "F#$%! THAT HURT", I'm doing the same thing. Its not a "dog language", its an "all social animals language". Same reason a yelping injured dog doesn't make you feel warm fuzzies unless you're a sadist (in which case you might be broken). Same reason a baby crying is impossible to ignore. Its not because a baby crying is all that loud (atleast when they are newborn), but because we are hard wired for empathy and to respond to distress calls... thats why someone who feels nothing when hearing another in distress is diagnosed as antisocial personality disorder


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## Joby Becker

Hunter Allred said:


> Well, never had to deal with 2 pups at once, but I'm sure there are some social sorting going on there right? Surely the puppies, left to their desires, wouldn't have a single elimination tournament till one was left... that goes against millions of years of evolution-honed instincts.


yeah I agree ...no elimination tournament but surely a few..split tongues, broken legs, torn off ears, ripped up noses, or messed up eyeballs along the way are possible..

I think it gets pretty dicey when dealing with certain working type dogs. 
Social aspects of working dogs in regards to how they interact with other dogs I dont think is a big priority at all for most working dog breeders as a group. 

I also think that there are many ways in which the recent history of breeding various working dogs, has made talk of evolution and wild instincts sort of irrelevant, at least in some areas...

a couple 100 years or even just 100 can drastically change dogs, we can produce dogs that in many ways, that live to do things that go directly against what would be beneficial to them if they were in the wild...maybe not as enitre breeds and species, but surely in many families and individuals.


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## Joby Becker

Hunter Allred said:


> If you pinched me and I screamed "F#$%! THAT HURT", I'm doing the same thing. Its not a "dog language", its an "all social animals language". Same reason a yelping injured dog doesn't make you feel warm fuzzies unless you're a sadist (in which case you might be broken). Same reason a baby crying is impossible to ignore. Its not because a baby crying is all that loud (atleast when they are newborn), but because we are hard wired for empathy and to respond to distress calls... thats why someone who feels nothing when hearing another in distress is diagnosed as antisocial personality disorder


we are hard wired for empathy, who is breeding dogs were empathy is a priority? just thinking out loud here..


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## Hunter Allred

Joby Becker said:


> we are hard wired for empathy, who is breeding dogs were empathy is a priority? just thinking out loud here..


Probably no working breeder outside of the guide/seizure alert/etc folks. But empathy I think can be expressed in many ways. Biddability is a form of empathy IMO. 

I think it's deeply hard wired as a result of evolution. Does anyone explicitly select for 4 legged dogs? No. That's also well cemented in the genes. A baby animal, be it a human, dog, horse, duck, fish, etc all look, in some capacity, "cute" bc a tolerance of and draw to babies is what makes us spend so much resources raising young. The only thing a baby gives in return is, nothing really. Your emotions bind you to their care. Critical for any species that births young that are not immediately self sufficient (like say, a fly)


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## Guy Williams

Alice Bezemer said:


> And my favorite... The pup will indicate when it has self control to learn rules...


I'm talking about putting the bite and release under command control. Then the rule 'don't bite until you're told' and 'release when told and dont re-engage' are enforced.

I don't put control in until I see the behaviour I want to control. So, I want the dog to be ragging like crazy before I put control in. 

Prior to that I am just looking to get the behaviour I want. If his biting comes my way I distract him onto rags or other items. He never gets told off or punished in any way for biting me or anyone else. Just redirected.

When the dog shows he has the self control to cope with the rules I put it all under command control and don't command him to bite anyone or anything I don't want him to bite.

My current pup is almost 5 months and can happily watch a rag on a flirt pole dance around until he is given the command. He didn't have the self control to do this two months ago. Now he does.

He indicated to me he was ready for the rules.

Roll your eyes all you want sister, it works and it consistently produces well controlled, handler safe dogs that bite real bums! :razz:


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## Bob Scott

Gillian Schuler said:


> Jeez Louise
> 
> When I saw you had written a reply, I thought "sit back" and read it. You didn't disappoint me.
> 
> This is just pure common or garden sense and you gave it to them [-o<



Amazing how little "common or garden sense" there is today huh! :grin:
I have no problem correcting a puppy for biting me. Doesn't matter what it's being trained for.


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## Alice Bezemer

Guy Williams said:


> I'm talking about putting the bite and release under command control. Then the rule 'don't bite until you're told' and 'release when told and dont re-engage' are enforced.
> 
> I don't put control in until I see the behaviour I want to control. So, I want the dog to be ragging like crazy before I put control in.
> 
> Prior to that I am just looking to get the behaviour I want. If his biting comes my way I distract him onto rags or other items. He never gets told off or punished in any way for biting me or anyone else. Just redirected.
> 
> When the dog shows he has the self control to cope with the rules I put it all under command control and don't command him to bite anyone or anything I don't want him to bite.
> 
> My current pup is almost 5 months and can happily watch a rag on a flirt pole dance around until he is given the command. He didn't have the self control to do this two months ago. Now he does.
> 
> He indicated to me he was ready for the rules.
> 
> Roll your eyes all you want sister, it works and it consistently produces well controlled, handler safe dogs that bite real bums! :razz:



Okay, I'll bite. :lol:

Tell me how the dog indicates he is ready for rules and how you can tell he is not ready for rules yet? What does the pup do that shows you it has self control or lack thereoff?


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## Hunter Allred

Joby Becker said:


> yeah I agree ...no elimination tournament but surely a few..split tongues, broken legs, torn off ears, ripped up noses, or messed up eyeballs along the way are possible..
> 
> I think it gets pretty dicey when dealing with certain working type dogs.
> Social aspects of working dogs in regards to how they interact with other dogs I dont think is a big priority at all for most working dog breeders as a group.
> 
> I also think that there are many ways in which the recent history of breeding various working dogs, has made talk of evolution and wild instincts sort of irrelevant, at least in some areas...
> 
> a couple 100 years or even just 100 can drastically change dogs, we can produce dogs that in many ways, that live to do things that go directly against what would be beneficial to them if they were in the wild...maybe not as enitre breeds and species, but surely in many families and individuals.


I get what you're saying, but simply not selecting for something doesn't breed it out or make it fade... It just leaves it to chaos. We have an appendix for example... don't need it, don't use it, still there. It will never go away because a) appendicitis isn't frequent enough to impact breeding and b) we don't allow appendicitis to remove individuals from the breeding stock anyway.

Breeding some working dogs to have more dominant, aggressive makeup will surely make for more forceful and frequent social encounters, but the social fabric is so deep I doubt it would easily be removed... Besides, remember that dominant behavior only exists because of its social relevance. You don't see dominance in nonsocial animals and certainly not in asexual ones. And consider all the evolutionary things that are there that aren't selected for in breeding... False pregnancies, pointing, circling before laying down, webbed toes, eating vomit, marking, etc... All evolutionary traits still very prominent in many/all breeds


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## Guy Williams

Alice Bezemer said:


> Okay, I'll bite. :lol:
> 
> Tell me how the dog indicates he is ready for rules and how you can tell he is not ready for rules yet? What does the pup do that shows you it has self control or lack thereoff?


When my kids were young they didn't have the attention span to watch a full length movie. They would fidget, get distracted, talk and feel the need to get up and run off some of their energy.

As a result of this, I didn't take them to the cinema.

As they got older, they became more focussed, were able to concentrate for longer and were able to sit still even though the growing urge in them to run around may have been building. They had more self control.

As a result of this, I took them to the cinema.

It is this process, but in dogs. The ability to focus, pay attention for longer and show restraint. Specificaly in relation to biting it is when they don't give in to that temptation to chase everything that moves and when the urges of teething are subsiding.

It is more impulse control, the process of learning delayed gratification. It's one of those "i know when the time is right" moments that is difficult to pin down to specifics.

I put the kid analogy in there cause I just knew you'd like it!:roll:


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## Ben Thompson

Alice Bezemer said:


> guess I will throw in my 2 cents again even tho rick said it best and you should check the KNPV topic.
> 
> what you do not want to deal with later as a problem, you do not allow now!
> 
> No biting on the hand that feeds it. Biting is allowed on its toys and playthings and in training and apart from that should not be allowed. A dog is very quick to understand that.
> 
> Redirecting a bite to a tug or toy is redirecting a problem. You are not solving anything you are only shifting the problem to another area and it doesn't learn the dog anything. Stop worrying about drive and just let it be a pup and tell it when it does something that it should not do. Sure, a 2 month old Tervurenaar is easy to redirect to a rag or tug, now imagine that pup fully grown and biting your ass, try and get it to redirect then because it never learned that biting the hand that feeds it wasn't allowed.


 Thats the method I prefer. I often wonder if allowing play biting doesn't make the dog bite softer since they learn they can't bite you too hard...does it carry over into the serious bite suit work? I don't know?


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## Marta Wajngarten

I'm with Alice... it's not ok for the puppy to piss inside my house now because it's young and can't hold it and I will teach him how to hold it once he's mature enough for it... Teach what you want from the start.

A quick fair correction appropriate in volume for that particular pup, maybe once or twice maybe even three if needed but they can get the concept of not biting very quickly and effectively and I rather convey that message and make that rule clear while they're 10lbs and maybe give them a refresher course at some time when they're a bit older if necessary. Pups at 8wks are perfectly capable of learning not to bite, they learn that non sense is not tolerated with their mom pretty darn quickly and she sure isn't bringing them tugs to redirect on. 

I think the key thing though is to be able to read dogs and dish out the appropriate volume of pow-pow to the pup so that the message is heard loud and clear but you don't over do it and cause issues. Especially if you have a softer pup. That's the tricky part that not every one is able to gauge. 

I love redirecting more as a preventative, i.e. you know that pup is going to try to want to bite, give him some thing to bite, but I'm not a fan of ignoring a pup chewing your arm off and trying to instead shove a toy in his mouth. And while the screaming might work on some dogs, for some pups it's just encouragement. Think of how a decoy encourages a dog's self asteem to bite, they pretend that the dog is hurting them and give little vocal and body reactions. Why would you think that the same action will have two completely different affects on the dog depending on what's convenient for you at the time. A sudden loud yelp might work with some pups if it startles them but please don't tell me all pups automatically have a moral code to stop hurting their playmate if they are getting hurt and vocalize. I've seen enough pups with scars at 4 or 5wks old from their litter mates to tell you screaming really doesn't always work like you imagine it does.


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## Guy Williams

Marta Wajngarten said:


> I'm with Alice... it's not ok for the puppy to piss inside my house now because it's young and can't hold it and I will teach him how to hold it once he's mature enough for it... Teach what you want from the start.
> 
> A quick fair correction appropriate in volume for that particular pup, maybe once or twice maybe even three if needed but they can get the concept of not biting very quickly and effectively and I rather convey that message and make that rule clear while they're 10lbs and maybe give them a refresher course at some time when they're a bit older if necessary. Pups at 8wks are perfectly capable of learning not to bite, they learn that non sense is not tolerated with their mom pretty darn quickly and she sure isn't bringing them tugs to redirect on.
> 
> I think the key thing though is to be able to read dogs and dish out the appropriate volume of pow-pow to the pup so that the message is heard loud and clear but you don't over do it and cause issues. Especially if you have a softer pup. That's the tricky part that not every one is able to gauge.
> 
> I love redirecting more as a preventative, i.e. you know that pup is going to try to want to bite, give him some thing to bite, but I'm not a fan of ignoring a pup chewing your arm off and trying to instead shove a toy in his mouth. And while the screaming might work on some dogs, for some pups it's just encouragement. Think of how a decoy encourages a dog's self asteem to bite, they pretend that the dog is hurting them and give little vocal and body reactions. Why would you think that the same action will have two completely different affects on the dog depending on what's convenient for you at the time. A sudden loud yelp might work with some pups if it startles them but please don't tell me all pups automatically have a moral code to stop hurting their playmate if they are getting hurt and vocalize. I've seen enough pups with scars at 4 or 5wks old from their litter mates to tell you screaming really doesn't always work like you imagine it does.


It's not ok for pups to piss in my house either but they are physically incapable of holding it in for too long. No amount of pow-pow will change that. So, I take them out regularly to create good habits and prevent bad. Once they have the (physical) self control to hold it in and the good habit of pissing outside the job is done.

I also interupt biting behaviour if I see it coming to prevent bad habits. If they do get me though I will keep still and redirect onto rags etc. The old 'dead for live' routine that I continue to teach the out. I do not permissively stand there allowing them to chew on me, that would be counter productive.

There are risks involved in using pow pow (I assume that is a euphemism for some form of aversive) in that you only know when you have gone over the top when you see the results of going over the top! I don't want the pup to have any bad associations with biting and have never had an issue with adult dogs being handler aggressive. 

By interrupting and redirecting, I am not avoiding a problem or delaying it. Once the pup has a legitimate outlet for his biting there is no problem.
Why would my own dog bite me unless he perceived me as a threat?

I think the process of the mum and littermates is interesting but is about learning all canine communication not just bite inhibition and I don't think humans can emulate the complexities of that. Us hitting a pup in response to it mouthing us is in no way similar to the complex process of facial expression, vocalisations etc that the mother uses to comminicate to the pups during the time they are together.:-k


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## Alice Bezemer

Guy Williams said:


> When my kids were young they didn't have the attention span to watch a full length movie. They would fidget, get distracted, talk and feel the need to get up and run off some of their energy.
> 
> As a result of this, I didn't take them to the cinema.
> 
> As they got older, they became more focussed, were able to concentrate for longer and were able to sit still even though the growing urge in them to run around may have been building. They had more self control.
> 
> As a result of this, I took them to the cinema.
> 
> It is this process, but in dogs. The ability to focus, pay attention for longer and show restraint. Specificaly in relation to biting it is when they don't give in to that temptation to chase everything that moves and when the urges of teething are subsiding.
> 
> It is more impulse control, the process of learning delayed gratification. It's one of those "i know when the time is right" moments that is difficult to pin down to specifics.
> 
> I put the kid analogy in there cause I just knew you'd like it!:roll:


I'm sorry but that dog just doesn't hunt..... you are making out as if a pup has no sense at all untill it has stopped teething. It has nothing to do with attention span at all. A correction does not take minutes but a split second at best. And trust me in this when I tell you that a pup does have an attention span if it wants too. It just has to be something that interests him or he enjous and blam there is that lacking attention span you so fondly mention. To use excuses like lack of attention span is teething or simply bei ng a puppy is to me lack of common sense but thats just my 2 cents. Loved the children example btw... it illustrated my point quite clearly. I asked for a dogs perspective and got a human one instead... pretty much spoke volumes and said more then I could ever say.


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## Travis Ragin

Guy Williams said:


> I think the process of the mum and littermates is interesting but is about learning all canine communication not just bite inhibition and I don't think humans can emulate the complexities of that. Us hitting a pup in response to it mouthing us is in no way similar to the complex process of facial expression, vocalisations *ETC...*that the mother uses to comuinicate to the pups during the time they are together.:-k


Specifically addressing the highlighted portion of your post sir, it is the *"ETC..."* being alluded to,that is a valuable tool which a dam(or higher socially ranking dog) *will use *to get their point across if/when the other complex signals are not recognized. It is very much a fact,not opinion, that a dog will naturally use this " aversive" tactic whenever they feel it is needed.

Dogs are intelligent creatures,but are simple and straight forward in the lessons they teach and learn from each other(and us) when they interact....... actually not as complex as some may view it......I can add on to that by noting these lessons begin at whatever age they first start to interact with another of their kind.


As mentioned earlier by a couple other people....a Dog has no concept of timeouts and misdirection - and never will........ therefore a Dog is literally incapable of learning what exact behavior its owner is actually trying to elicit this way.

Respectfully, _Merriam-Webster _clearly defines 'misdirect' as> *1: *to give a wrong direction to > *2: *to direct wrongly


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## Travis Ragin

Marta Wajngarten said:


> I think the key thing though is to be able to read dogs and dish out the appropriate volume of pow-pow to the pup so that the message is heard loud and clear but you don't over do it and cause issues. Especially if you have a softer pup. That's the tricky part that not every one is able to gauge.


Hey Choochi! That whole post was good info for this thread and OP.


Always great to read your insight on reading dogs and communicating with them







. This section stood out to me because I'd like to contribute to your analysis,and add that I've learned that the key and main thing that not everyone is able to *control*........is their* emotions* when dishing out the appropriate volume of pow-pow.That is where the road toward "ruining drives" and breaking dogs spirit begins....


One thing I've learned over the years to help me to avoid making this mistake with my dog, is to actually look away in another direction when the clarification of the rules is explained........personally,I have no problem with my dog seeing and understanding that a clarification is coming directly from me,because my approach is simply blind justice sort to speak.......


Nothing personal,no emotions and no hard feelings before or after> fair and unbiased......... Dogs(and pups) understand that.


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## Travis Ragin

Yup!




Alice Bezemer said:


> Pups are not human, stop treating them as if they were. Pups are not stupid, stop treating them as if they were. Pups learn by action and reaction, pretty much as nature dictates and they learn from the moment they take their first breath.


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## Guy Williams

Alice Bezemer said:


> I'm sorry but that dog just doesn't hunt..... you are making out as if a pup has no sense at all untill it has stopped teething. It has nothing to do with attention span at all. A correction does not take minutes but a split second at best. And trust me in this when I tell you that a pup does have an attention span if it wants too. It just has to be something that interests him or he enjous and blam there is that lacking attention span you so fondly mention. To use excuses like lack of attention span is teething or simply bei ng a puppy is to me lack of common sense but thats just my 2 cents. Loved the children example btw... it illustrated my point quite clearly. I asked for a dogs perspective and got a human one instead... pretty much spoke volumes and said more then I could ever say.


I'm not saying the pup has no sense just that they have a desire to bite and chew. Biting is a natural way of learning bite inhibition and dog communication. This phase can be 'managed' by redirecting rather than stopped by pow-pow. I appreciate you do things differently but that is how I do it. It works. What do you feel is motivating a pups biting?

As for the analogy, you shouldn't take that as justification that I can't tell the difference between kids and dogs, treat them the same or am some how sentimental about my dogs. I try to understand their needs and fulfill them to make strong, confident dogs.

When you are talking about a subject where people hold differing views I find that peoples pre conceived ideas can stop them visualising the point being made. I used human examples because most people are familiar with human behaviour and may get the point. I could have used a hamster analogy but people may have thought that was a bit random.


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## Alice Bezemer

Guy Williams said:


> I'm not saying the pup has no sense just that they have a desire to bite and chew. Biting is a natural way of learning bite inhibition and dog communication. This phase can be 'managed' by redirecting rather than stopped by pow-pow. I appreciate you do things differently but that is how I do it. It works. What do you feel is motivating a pups biting?
> 
> *Managing is not teaching it what it should know in order to grow up and become a mentally healthy dog. It is giving the dog options and choices. Just because it has a desire doesn't mean he should be allowed to give into it. Its the same in nature... wanting and getting are 2 different things. A pup bites everything around it in order to explore, taste, eat, chew and to find its limits. If he bites a branch and nothing happens it will continue to bite the branch, if it bites a human hand and it gets redirected to a rag, it will bite the rag and eventually return to the hand since it hasn''t learned that biting the hand is of limits. It will continue on to bite legs, wrists, fingers, face if he can reach it....
> *
> 
> As for the analogy, you shouldn't take that as justification that I can't tell the difference between kids and dogs, treat them the same or am some how sentimental about my dogs. I try to understand their needs and fulfill them to make strong, confident dogs.
> 
> *I don't think you can't see the difference between dogs and kids, I do however think that you are making life so much harder for the dog by using ways to let the dog figure it out for himself. You are not actually teaching him to do anything right or wrong, you are teaching your dog that there is no right answer to begin with. You are making a grey area where he should be tought that things are black and white to begin with. Pretty much setting him up for failure at a later age.*
> 
> When you are talking about a subject where people hold differing views I find that peoples pre conceived ideas can stop them visualising the point being made. I used human examples because most people are familiar with human behaviour and may get the point. I could have used a hamster analogy but people may have thought that was a bit random.
> 
> *I grasp and understand your point very well it is just that I do not see any benefit for the dog in this way of treatment. Its not that I do not know of the ways you are talking about, I know them very well, they are the ways that taught me that there had to be a better way to go about things when it came to teaching and training dogs rules and boundries. *


Question: You redirect a pups behaviour by offering him a rag each time he bites a hand or whatever object you do not want him to bite. This dog grows up and tries the same as an adult, do you still redirect or do you use harsher measures to get rid of this unwanted behaviour? (see what I mean with setting a dog up for failure?)


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## rick smith

a (constantly biting) gsd who was redirected with peanut butter brought this to my mind :
so.....Q for anyone 

if a pup bites a hand and is quickly removed and redirected (in this example) to a rag, which the pup is then allowed to enjoy, what is happening in the dog's brain ?

1. is the dog learning that the hand should not be bitten ?
2. is the dog learning that if it bites a hand it will be given a rag ?
3. something else entirely ?
i think it has to be one of these options
...or do dogs not try to connect the dots because they aren't really thinking and learning

at this point, i'm just talking about what is going on at that time it bites the hand.


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## Guy Williams

Alice Bezemer said:


> Question: You redirect a pups behaviour by offering him a rag each time he bites a hand or whatever object you do not want him to bite. This dog grows up and tries the same as an adult, do you still redirect or do you use harsher measures to get rid of this unwanted behaviour? (see what I mean with setting a dog up for failure?)


I'm not teaching the dog right or wrong. I don't think they ever learn that as they have no moral code. They are learning what is rewarding for dog and what is not rewarding for dog.

I simply make sure biting me is not rewarding by interrupting their biting if they they are coming my way so it never becomes a habit, and if they do get me by making sure it isn't fun by removing my hand and giving them something more rewarding to do ie. ragging.

Then I teach them the rules ie. don't bite until told etc and breaches of these rules are marked by the quitting signal and dealt with by removing the reward or timing the dog out.

That crazy puppy biting phase just goes away along with his little needle teeth and that's why I referred to 'managing' it. Once the dog has learned the rules they don't bite hands. If they did they would get timed out but they just dont.

The dog has learned self control, learned the rules of engagement and now have no reason to bite me. 

Everything about my trainng is aimed at communicating as clearly to the dog as I can and removing as much unwanted stress and confusion as I can. They really don't get confused over this and they really don't look like dogs that have been set up to fail.


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## Guy Williams

rick smith said:


> a (constantly biting) gsd who was redirected with peanut butter brought this to my mind :
> so.....Q for anyone
> 
> if a pup bites a hand and is quickly removed and redirected (in this example) to a rag, which the pup is then allowed to enjoy, what is happening in the dog's brain ?
> 
> 1. is the dog learning that the hand should not be bitten ?
> 2. is the dog learning that if it bites a hand it will be given a rag ?
> 3. something else entirely ?
> i think it has to be one of these options
> ...or do dogs not try to connect the dots because they aren't really thinking and learning
> 
> at this point, i'm just talking about what is going on at that time it bites the hand.


I think the pup is looking to satisfy a need (to chase/chew etc). If the hand is removed then there is no time for it to become fun. Ragging however is great fun and can go on for ages.

I think there is a danger that the pup may start to associate biting hands and then that bringing on the ragging.

However, if you pre-empt the pup and get your rag out before he gets to you then you can go some way to stopping the habit arising. If you are also proactive in presenting the rag before the pup initiates the situation that also helps.

Once he has a legitimate outlet for this biting and chewing the instances of him spontaneously biting and catching you off guard should diminish.

Great question. My brain is starting to ache.:-k


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## Travis Ragin

Cannot see a way for someone to give a specific answer to your question without knowing this info first.





rick smith said:


> if a pup bites a hand


What is the *specific* situation that immediately *precedes* this bite? 









rick smith said:


> is quickly removed and redirected (in this example) to a rag, .


As written,this sounds to me like *two* separate actions... *quick removal* and *then redirection*. Is that correct?


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## Guy Williams

Travis Ragin said:


> Specifically addressing the highlighted portion of your post sir, it is the *"ETC..."* being alluded to,that is a valuable tool which a dam(or higher socially ranking dog) *will use *to get their point across if/when the other complex signals are not recognized. It is very much a fact,not opinion, that a dog will naturally use this " aversive" tactic whenever they feel it is needed.
> 
> Dogs are intelligent creatures,but are simple and straight forward in the lessons they teach and learn from each other(and us) when they interact....... actually not as complex as some may view it......I can add on to that by noting these lessons begin at whatever age they first start to interact with another of their kind.
> 
> 
> As mentioned earlier by a couple other people....a Dog has no concept of timeouts and misdirection - and never will........ therefore a Dog is literally incapable of learning what exact behavior its owner is actually trying to elicit this way.
> 
> Respectfully, _Merriam-Webster _clearly defines 'misdirect' as> *1: *to give a wrong direction to > *2: *to direct wrongly


My ETC wasn't supposed to be in bold but was just meant to represent all the communication facets the bitch has in her arsenal including everything she may or may not do with her teeth. I just think that the process of a pup learning all the facial behaviours and lessons that go with them are too complex for us to understand or more importantly, emulate. Therefore trying to assume we can replicate a part of that and get the same result is assuming a lot.

A dog that is in time out is missing out on lots of fun, rewarding things to do and all the (not couch potato) dogs I have come across will work hard to try not to get put in a time out.

The behaviour that I don't like is marked with the quitting signal (conditioned -P) so the dog does learn which behaviour earned the time out. There are studies that have shown time outs to be very effective and They work for me.

Misdirection? That's not been mentioned by me.

ps. I don't think you have to call me sir until I am a landshark on my avatar!


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## rick smith

Guy 
i don't get the concept of the "time out" and exactly how it figures into dog training.
can you provide some refs of the studies that were done with dogs ?

i am also assuming it might be close to what others might refer to as "put it up", or "let it soak awhile", so i would include those definitions also. 
- fwiw, when i hear "time out" i always think it's a (human) kid thing...sort of a nicer way of yelling "GO TO YOUR ROOM"


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## Alice Bezemer

Guy Williams said:


> I'm not teaching the dog right or wrong. I don't think they ever learn that as they have no moral code. They are learning what is rewarding for dog and what is not rewarding for dog.
> 
> I simply make sure biting me is not rewarding by interrupting their biting if they they are coming my way so it never becomes a habit, and if they do get me by making sure it isn't fun by removing my hand and giving them something more rewarding to do ie. ragging.
> 
> Then I teach them the rules ie. don't bite until told etc and breaches of these rules are marked by the quitting signal and dealt with by removing the reward or timing the dog out.
> 
> That crazy puppy biting phase just goes away along with his little needle teeth and that's why I referred to 'managing' it. Once the dog has learned the rules they don't bite hands. If they did they would get timed out but they just dont.
> 
> The dog has learned self control, learned the rules of engagement and now have no reason to bite me.
> 
> Everything about my trainng is aimed at communicating as clearly to the dog as I can and removing as much unwanted stress and confusion as I can. They really don't get confused over this and they really don't look like dogs that have been set up to fail.


How do you time out the dog? I would like to know what a time out means in your book.


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## Christopher Smith

Ben Thompson said:


> I often wonder if allowing play biting doesn't make the dog bite softer since they learn they can't bite you too hard...does it carry over into the serious bite suit work? I don't know?


I think it does. I think the dog learns that biting is a game and has no real affect. It's like you growing up being allowed to punch people in the face and these people never said it hurt. They just laughed and gave you toy to play with. By the time you were an adult you will never raise your fist to hurt someone. 


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## Guy Williams

rick smith said:


> Guy
> i don't get the concept of the "time out" and exactly how it figures into dog training.
> can you provide some refs of the studies that were done with dogs ?
> 
> i am also assuming it might be close to what others might refer to as "put it up", or "let it soak awhile", so i would include those definitions also.
> - fwiw, when i hear "time out" i always think it's a (human) kid thing...sort of a nicer way of yelling "GO TO YOUR ROOM"


Time out is time out. Out the game. In the sin bin. If some people call it 'let it soak a while' then that's fine but that's what I do with my dirty socks! As is often the case we are sometimes arguing the same point but calling it different things.

I will either physically put it somewhere out the way if we are talking puppy or an adult I would send to the van, cage, mat or just drop it into a down. Either way it is out the game.

However, as some trainers mark good behaviour with a word, I mark unwanted behaviour with my quitting signal. This is just a noise or word that I say when the dog does the wrong behaviour (or if i'm quick sometimes just as it is about to do it) and will result in that behaviour being unrewarding which may be a time out. With time, it causes the dog to 'quit' that behaviour when it hears the sound. It is a conditioned negative punisher in techno terms.

There are some studies (on dogs) that show it to be effective and if I was more organised or had a better memory I would list them. I'm not sure if these are specifically dogs but i'm going to be risque and just throw them in.

kaufman and Baron (1968) suggest 1-2 mins to be most effective but 30 secs has an effect

Nobbe et al (1980) suggest 3 mins for aggressive behaviour

And yes, I do use time out with my kids too. Modifying behaviour is modifying behaviour! Or is it? My kids are currently biting my ankles, what should I do?:razz:


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## Maureen A Osborn

I always get a kick out of these discussions....ya know, it all depends on the dog on how you deal with it, IMHO. Depends on the dog, its drives, its temperament...some will stop with a quick no and smack on the nose, some with become hand shy from that same method, some with try to eat you alive for the same correction method. A dog like Melee wants me to gets pissed at her and smack her to give her a reason to fight, she will start off with the little "flea biting nibbling" thing with her front teeth to try to get a reaction...if I "yelp" it encourages it more, if I smack her and tell her no, wrestling match is on....only thing that works is grabbing by the scruff and looking at her dead in the eye and telling her firmly, NO!" and then let go, over and done with and she goes and gets a toy and lays down...y'all need to evaluate each dog for its sensitivity/insensitivity to corrections. JMHO


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## Guy Williams

Christopher Smith said:


> I think it does. I think the dog learns that biting is a game and has no real affect. It's like you growing up being allowed to punch people in the face and these people never said it hurt. They just laughed and gave you toy to play with. By the time you were an adult you will never raise your fist to hurt someone.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Or, it could be like semi contact martial arts where you hold back because you don't want to hurt your mates too bad, but when it is serious you have got a bit of practice under your belt and can let them have all you've got?:-k


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## Lisa Radcliffe

Christopher Smith said:


> I think it does. I think the dog learns that biting is a game and has no real affect. It's like you growing up being allowed to punch people in the face and these people never said it hurt. They just laughed and gave you toy to play with. By the time you were an adult you will never raise your fist to hurt someone.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Is this something you have seen in dogs you train? and if so how many? are you saying then that a dog can not tell when it is "for real" serious and not just a game or sport? and to your comment about people I find that one very interesting and of course I do not agree there


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## David Winners

Wouldn't redirecting quickly with a rag after a bite be classically conditioning the dog that if it bites you it gets rewarded?

That seems counterproductive in getting the dog to stop biting you.

David Winners


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## Bob Scott

David Winners said:


> Wouldn't redirecting quickly with a rag after a bite be classically conditioning the dog that if it bites you it gets rewarded?
> 
> That seems counterproductive in getting the dog to stop biting you.
> 
> David Winners


Ditto!


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## Terrasita Cuffie

I think Guy's methods can be effective and it falls under negative punishment and loss of opportunity for reward/satisfaction and the dogs do process it. There are other theories regarding removal from the pack for offensive behaviors as effective. I'm generally in the zero tolerance for bite the hand that feeds you group. But ran into an exception. I certainly corrected Khira enough but again, not effective. She loaded in drive on anticipation of coming out of her crate and no matter how I corrected, she still did it. So had a lot of stress/conflict but it didn't end the behavior. Finally, opened the crate and handed her a toy and problem solved. She eventually grew out of it. I don't usually think too much about the puppy biting because it does go away. But that said, when I decide to end it, I do and we don't have to revisit it. I'm not into pain and may not have time to set up for redirecting. Like someone else said, what you do can depend on the dog. We are having this discussion now in my training group. The person's dog jumps up at her face when she wants something. The obedience instructor's solution for was her to turn her back to the dog as it is jumping towards her face. I find this passive aggressive and not giving any information to the dog--and maybe even encouraging it. I guess it comes down to what you have patience for and what you don't. 

T


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## Christopher Smith

Lisa Radcliffe said:


> Is this something you have seen in dogs you train? and if so how many?


 Yes. I'm not sure how many.


> are you saying then that a dog can not tell when it is "for real" serious and not just a game or sport?


No. 


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## Guy Williams

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> I think Guy's methods can be effective and it falls under negative punishment and loss of opportunity for reward/satisfaction and the dogs do process it. There are other theories regarding removal from the pack for offensive behaviors as effective. I'm generally in the zero tolerance for bite the hand that feeds you group. But ran into an exception. I certainly corrected Khira enough but again, not effective. She loaded in drive on anticipation of coming out of her crate and no matter how I corrected, she still did it. So had a lot of stress/conflict but it didn't end the behavior. Finally, opened the crate and handed her a toy and problem solved. She eventually grew out of it. I don't usually think too much about the puppy biting because it does go away. But that said, when I decide to end it, I do and we don't have to revisit it. I'm not into pain and may not have time to set up for redirecting. Like someone else said, what you do can depend on the dog. We are having this discussion now in my training group. The person's dog jumps up at her face when she wants something. The obedience instructor's solution for was her to turn her back to the dog as it is jumping towards her face. I find this passive aggressive and not giving any information to the dog--and maybe even encouraging it. I guess it comes down to what you have patience for and what you don't.
> 
> T


I make an effort to make the act of biting fun and rewarding to the dog (+P). Thats why ragging is made to be a fun game. Later down the line biting hands,arms and bums will be on the menu, just not my arms! I am trying to reduce any risk of creating bad associations with the act of biting and get all the biting 'desrire' out of all the dogs that come through my doors however strong they may be.

I try to avoid being bitten by the pup as much as possible by management but when I am bitten will try to ensure it is not a very rewarding behaviour. I just keep still or remove my hand. I agree, this phase does just go away.

I agree with some of the other posters that the sequence of bite the hand then bite the rag is a bad association that could arise and could happen if that was all that was happening. It is a numbers game though and the number of rewarding bites on rags outweigh the not very rewarding bites on me and that becomes the game of choice. The teething stage fades away and the rules around ragging are introduced. 

I am left with a dog that loves to bite, will bite the things I have taught it too bite and let go when told. Biting things it shouldn't is never rewarding (-P) and so they do it less with time. 

I think perhaps the assumption is that people that avoid trying to use aversives are somehow passive or weak. I am all about protecting boundaries and not allowing unwanted behaviour to go unchecked (not with a check chain though) because I have no other tools in my arsenal.

The case here of the dog jumping is a good case in point. Turning your back should be a -P by withdrawing social contact but the proof of the pudding is the result. It isn't working so it isn't -P. Teaching the dog to do something more appropriate is often one solution that works but if this dog has a long reinforcement history or finds this behaviour really good fun you need to do more. I would hit him with both barrells and time that mother f*.#* out!!!\\/


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## Guy Williams

David Winners said:


> Wouldn't redirecting quickly with a rag after a bite be classically conditioning the dog that if it bites you it gets rewarded?
> 
> That seems counterproductive in getting the dog to stop biting you.
> 
> David Winners


If you allowed it to happen often enough then conditioning may well occur. 

The aim is to manage the situation ie. keep the pup in a crate etc until you are ready. Distract him before he gets into the behaviour and try and make the bites on you as un fun as possible. Then biting you shouldn't feature too highly on his radar because there are too many other things that also precursor the fun event of ragging.

All training methods have pros and cons, I think you just have to be aware of them. Giving the pup a slap if he bites you may work and as long as you know the pit fall is hitting too hard then you should be able to avoid trouble.

I guess lack of knowledge and experience are the things that cause failures more so than the methods themselves.


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## Guy Williams

Emmie Lieberman said:


> I am getting my tervuren pup on the 10th of December. It will be my first time raising a pup for an type of sport. The breeder says she is very bold, loves to tug, and loves to bite. She is very rough and often gets carried away- trying to jump p and bite and people's face. I know that I can't be letting her chomp on me all the time. What should I be correcting and how should I do it without ruining he natural drive?


It's almost time. Have you formed a picture in your mind of how you are going to deal with biting? However you decide to deal with it i'm sure most people would agree that you want to have a (rough) plan before the pup arrives (and a plan b obviously).


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## Joby Becker

the tree hugger GF has a kitten. the kitten is like a puppy it bites and attacks everyone, except me, it comes up grabs my hand softly with its paws and licks me... 

at first it clamped onto my hand like a mini bulldog and had to be pried off, it is a week later and it is unruly and out of control at her house grabbing her and biting her all the time.

her observations was that I was mean to the kitten and that the kitten is now scared of me, even though it sleeps on my fat belly at night when I go there..


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## Matt Vandart

Just been reading about time out procedures from the same source as Guy is referencing I think, very interesting indeed.


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## Emmie Lieberman

Wow- I was offline for a few days! So many replies. Thank you for all the food for thought.


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## Bob Scott

Joby Becker said:


> the tree hugger GF has a kitten. the kitten is like a puppy it bites and attacks everyone, except me, it comes up grabs my hand softly with its paws and licks me...
> 
> at first it clamped onto my hand like a mini bulldog and had to be pried off, it is a week later and it is unruly and out of control at her house grabbing her and biting her all the time.
> 
> her observations was that I was mean to the kitten and that the kitten is now scared of me, even though it sleeps on my fat belly at night when I go there..



Prolly just a smart fighter and wants to stay on the inside of your power punch sweet spot.
Watch out! Cats got a mean hook in close. :grin: :wink:


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