# Overbite



## Jen Houser

My Mal puppy has a very obvious overbite, so much so, that his tongue frequently hangs out when he lounges around the house. I am wondering how much (if any) this will affect his bite. I've never done bite work with a dog before so this is all new to me. He did attend a bite class and the trainer said he had an impressive, deep bite. He won't be going into police work; just some basic personal protection so this isn't a deal breaker kind of thing for me. I'm just more curious about the affects it might have.


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## Mike Scheiber

I have seen this in one of the more popular Mal lines of recent here in the US they seem to keep breeding them and they do work well. Maybe its a Malinois thing seems like the as long as they bite its all good. 
Should do some homework before you buy that's all I can say. Have you mentioned this to the breeder this should have been obvious to them and you.


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## Chris Michalek

Mike Scheiber said:


> I have seen this in one of the more popular Mal lines of recent here in the US they seem to keep breeding them and they do work well. Maybe its a Malinois thing seems like the as long as they bite its all good.
> Should do some homework before you buy that's all I can say. Have you mentioned this to the breeder this should have been obvious to them and you.



my mal has a overbite too and his tongue hangs out. He fits in well with the pugs in my house.


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## Anna Kasho

Jen, Chris... What lines are your dogs from? And for anyone else, which lines/dogs tend to produce overbites? 

My two, fortunately, have proper scissor bites. So I have no experience with it. If the dog is not for breeding and bites without problems, does it matter?


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Do the teeth line up otherwise? If not, then there will be problems in the bitework. I would ask for my money back. 

Unless you got the dog for a reduced price to begin with.

I do not see paying for a dog that has this problem, unless you knew about it to begin with.

Breeders need to be held to a higher standard than what is currently acceptable.


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## Chris Michalek

Anna Kasho said:


> Jen, Chris... What lines are your dogs from? And for anyone else, which lines/dogs tend to produce overbites?
> 
> My two, fortunately, have proper scissor bites. So I have no experience with it. If the dog is not for breeding and bites without problems, does it matter?



http://pawvillage.com/pedigree/pedigree.asp?ID=2ZPA3V41PN

my dog bites just fine.


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## Jen Houser

Yes, his teeth seem to line up otherwise and his bite is strong and hard from what I've been told (this is my first Mal and first working dog). I have not talked to the breeder about it. He won't be used for breeding, so as far as that goes, it isn't a problem. I was just curious to see what others have experienced. Chris, I think it is hilarious to see their tongue hang out like it does. It only adds to his personality!

Here is his pedigree: http://masonsmalinois.com/files/Mojo_X_Molly_Litter.htm


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## Kadi Thingvall

Jen, how old is your pup? Chris, your pup is about 6 months old, correct?

Did either of you notice this at 8 weeks? And how big of an overbite are we talking about? Ie an 1/8th of an inch space between top and bottom incisors or 1/2 an inch or ???

In a pup with a developing head a minor overbite can sometimes be just because the top and bottom jaw grow at a different rate. I've seen this develope in pups (various breeds) and I've seen it correct itself as the other jaw caught up. However, if the pup had the overbite at 8 weeks then chances are very good it's going to have it as an adult. Or if the overbite is a big one 1/2 an inch or more, this isn't just a minor hiccup in the development, it's something that's here to stay. 

I would definitely go back and ask the breeder about this. Are any of the other pups having problems, was this noticed before you purchased the pup, why wasn't it mentioned, etc. It's one of the standard things that should be checked on a pup, that and if it's a boy can you find both testicles at 8 weeks.


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## Chris Michalek

I asked my breeder. He looked at it and said "Yep, he's got a little overbite" Then another club member chimed in "It's a malinois, they're all ugly, you got one that works, if you want a something for the show ring pick another breed" 

I'm not concerned, nor is the breeder as this was the pup he was going to keep and compete with.


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## Jen Houser

My pup is almost four months. His overbite is not something I notice when I got him at 8 weeks, so maybe it is just something he is growing in to. I will ask the breeder if any of the other puppies have had the same problem. Right now I'd say his overbite is about 1/2 an inch. It seems to be more noticeable the last two weeks. Looking straight at him, you wouldn't be able to tell. However, if he is laying on his back, he looks like a shark (and has earned the nickname because of it).


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## Terry Fisk

I've seen a lot of breeds with overbites. They range from mild 1/4 inch to extreme 1" or more. The biggest problem seems to be with the lower canine teeth (being out of nautural alignment) creating a "pocket" in the upper gums. These "pockets" often trap food and other debris and become inflammed or ulcerated.


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## Milton Burton

I don't know about the overbight but our Dept. has a dog from your dogs sire(Mojo) and he is a monster in the protection and has an incredible nose.


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## Jerry Lyda

I've seen a GSD, from a back yard breeder, that was so bad that his lower canines would puncture the upper part of his mouth. From what I heard the lower canines had to be pulled. They called this a parrot mouth.


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## Jen Houser

I spoke with the breeder today and it is the first time he has seen one of his puppies have an overbite, especially one this big. He is a great guy and is honest, and it wasn't something that he or the vet caught as a puppy. He offered to make good, but my pup is healthy and regardless of his overbite, he's perfect to me.

Milton, the sire is a gorgous, strong dog. His pups definitely reflect that! Do you have a picture of the dog in your department? I'd love to see it!


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## Mark Sloan

Mojo is the sire of my boy who will be one year on 2/10. He has no overbite and is a prey monster. His mom is Katie.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Perfect dog with an overbite ???


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## Chris Michalek

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Perfect dog with an overbite ???


perfect enough to chase the likes of you away when needed. :roll:


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## Jeff Oehlsen

I will stick that little ****er under my arm and walk off with it. LOL I will sell him as a furry parrot.


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## Anna Kasho

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I will sell him as a furry parrot.


Yeah, right, but can it talk? :lol:


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Furry NON speaking parrot.


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## Jen Houser

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Perfect dog with an overbite ???


Perfect enough for me :-D Who could say no to this face?


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Easy sale as a furry parrot.lol


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## Howard Gaines III

What lines are showing with the overbite? I imported on from Holland about 10 years ago and it had one, got rid of it! Never seen a mule do Schutzhund, but thtey do BITE.


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## Terry Fisk

This is one of the worst overbites I have seen in a long time. The alignment is so off it even affects the canines. This dog can not close her mouth completely and the lower canines embed in the tissue behind the uppers.


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## Bob Scott

That's just wrong!
G&S dog!


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## Jen Houser

Ouch that sounds painful.

Here's a pic of my puppy's mouth:


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## Anna Kasho

Wow, I think there would be teeth issues as the pup gets his adult teeth in. Those lower canines should fit in front of the uppers, and they are behind and look close enough to rub against each other... Yikes!

I can't believe the breeder did not notice this...


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## leslie cassian

I didn't even know enough to check, but when I picked up Ronan as a wee pup, the breeder held him and showed me that he had a correct bite and also had his two (tiny)descended testicles.

Something I now know I should check for... except the testicles because the next puppy will be a female.


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## Jaimie Van Orden

Anna Kasho said:


> I can't believe the breeder did not notice this...


What she said!


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## Courtney Guthrie

Jen Houser said:


> Ouch that sounds painful.
> 
> Here's a pic of my puppy's mouth:


Um....I do think that unless his bite straightens out as he grows, which I've heard is rare especially since that one is so obviously severe....he will more than likely have problems at bitework. As Anne said, his lower k9s are behind his uppers. 

IF I was you, i'd be asking for at least HALF of what I paid for that pup back. That's a really severe bite issue for such a small puppy. It looks just like the dog posted in the picture above it. 

Has anyone seen an overbite this severe correct itself? I'm really Curious. 

Courtney


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## Jerry Lyda

The one I saw did not correct itself. I would let the breeder know, a good breeder would want to know.


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## Kadi Thingvall

Courtney Guthrie said:


> Has anyone seen an overbite this severe correct itself? I'm really Curious.


No, I haven't. I would be concerned about the placement of the teeth also, and damage it might do to the dogs mouth.


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## Jen Houser

I did let the breeder know and he was very appreciative that I did so. And he did offer compensation. The overbite was not noticeable like this when he was only 8 weeks, and it is something that I have noticed developing over the past 2 weeks or so when he hit a growth spurt. When I bring him into the vet, I will find out exactly what is to be expected, especially if it will do damage to his mouth.


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## Anna Kasho

I recommend seeing a specialist rather than your regular vet. Chances are the regular vet specialises in pets (not much knowledge of bitework) and doesn't get to see stuff like this all too often. Ask your vet whom he would recommend if it was HIS dog... I still can't believe it was unnoticeable at 8 weeks. Did you see the lower canines in front, then move to level, then move behind the uppers as he grew??

I would be asking for a replacement pup. This is not a minor defect.


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## Maren Bell Jones

Anna Kasho said:


> I recommend seeing a specialist rather than your regular vet. Chances are the regular vet specialises in pets (not much knowledge of bitework) and doesn't get to see stuff like this all too often. Ask your vet whom he would recommend if it was HIS dog... I still can't believe it was unnoticeable at 8 weeks. Did you see the lower canines in front, then move to level, then move behind the uppers as he grew??
> 
> I would be asking for a replacement pup. This is not a minor defect.


I'd also second seeing a boarded veterinary dentist if possible. We don't get a ton of dental stuff in vet school (the basics, yes, but more advanced, you have to do continuing education or be board certified), but while the general practitioner sees a lot for periodontal disease, probably not enough for correcting or assessing the correct bite needed for performance sport. Here's the directory of the diplomates of the American College of Veterinary Dentistry (vets that have gone on for a residency and have passed board exams):

http://www.avdc-dms.org/dms/diplomates.cfm


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## Jen Houser

Thank you for the link, Maren. There is a specialist right down the street from me that I will be taking him too. A replacement pup is out of the question for me. I would rather, and will, spend the necessary money to fix the problem.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

I read something about this I think on pedigree database where they are pulling the teeth (baby) and it is correcting itself. Sounded way weird, but I have seen weirder shit work. 

Anyone hear of this new weird thing???


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## Gerry Grimwood

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I read something about this I think on pedigree database where they are pulling the teeth (baby) and it is correcting itself. Sounded way weird, but I have seen weirder shit work.
> 
> Anyone hear of this new weird thing???


How would pulling the teeth correct a problem in the jaws ?


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## Jeff Oehlsen

They had a link, but I was about done staring at a computer for the day.

I tried to find it earlier, but I have no patience for that shit anymore. LOL


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## Courtney Guthrie

Kadi Thingvall said:


> No, I haven't. I would be concerned about the placement of the teeth also, and damage it might do to the dogs mouth.


Thanks Kadi and Jerry for your answers. I have never seen an overbite this severe. EVER. 

I personally would be talking to a specialist ASAP and also letting the breeder know that HE will be PAYING to have this fixed unless he gives a replacement puppy. 

For me, I'd take the replacement puppy.

Courtney


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## Maren Bell Jones

Courtney Guthrie said:


> Thanks Kadi and Jerry for your answers. I have never seen an overbite this severe. EVER.
> 
> I personally would be talking to a specialist ASAP and also letting the breeder know that HE will be PAYING to have this fixed unless he gives a replacement puppy.
> 
> For me, I'd take the replacement puppy.
> 
> Courtney


Curious...why would you have a replacement from the same breeder from similar possibly faulty stock?


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## Jeff Oehlsen

It is the breeders responsibility, plain and simple. This puppy should not have been sold.

Culling is not socially acceptable here in the states, and because of this mentality, breeders will sell inferior pups, instead of taking responsibility.

having said that, I really do not think that the breeder intended to produce overbites. Unfortunately this does happen, and the pup should have been culled.

If a "breeder" does not have the stomach for culling, then maybe they should consider doing something else.


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## Jerry Lyda

I'm really not sure if this could be seen at an early age, maybe so. Even if it wasn't noticed a pup should be replaced. Is this genetic or is it just one of those things that happen?


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Genetic.](*,) ](*,) ](*,) ](*,) ](*,)


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## Courtney Guthrie

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Curious...why would you have a replacement from the same breeder from similar possibly faulty stock?


If that was MY ONLY option, I'd take it. This breeder sounds decent enough just un-educated maybe. That would be me, also the dog would be neutered because of the siblings horrid overbite. If there was no money offered back, I'd take what I could considering the situation. However, I'd make sure that the breeder knew that this was unacceptable and that the puppy would be neutered at the right time. 

That's my take on it. 

I agree with you Jeff, There need to be more breeders willing to cull. I will when I start a breeding program.


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## Mike Scheiber

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> It is the breeders responsibility, plain and simple. This puppy should not have been sold.
> 
> Culling is not socially acceptable here in the states, and because of this mentality, breeders will sell inferior pups, instead of taking responsibility.
> 
> having said that, I really do not think that the breeder intended to produce overbites. Unfortunately this does happen, and the pup should have been culled.
> 
> If a "breeder" does not have the stomach for culling, then maybe they should consider doing something else.


I agree the pup should have been been culled or at least put very heavy restrictions on it's life.
Culling doesn't solve the genetic problems in this line this pup may have been the only one in the litter or several have it. Not responsible breeding if you keep breeding and culling with out letting buyers/breeders have all the facts.
Or how about Willie the dog man get ahold of one of them he breeds the shit out of it.
This seems to be a big thing with mals I personally know of a couple of them with this problem.


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## Maren Bell Jones

Mike Scheiber said:


> Culling doesn't solve the genetic problems in this line this pup may have been the only one in the litter or several have it. Not responsible breeding if you keep breeding and culling with out letting buyers/breeders have all the facts.
> Or how about Willie the dog man get ahold of one of them he breeds the shit out of it.


+1 Mike


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## Milton Burton

The breeder of this dog has a great reputation in this area as a breeder. I strongly believe he will make it right with you.


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## Jen Houser

*To be clear, the breeder has been VERY honest and open about the situation. Regardless of my dog's condition, I still hold him very highly and cannot say a bad thing about him. He has asked me to keep him informed with the situation as it progresses. His dogs have a reputation for being very powerful, smart working dogs.*

That being said, he did offer compensation, and he has never had this problem before. None of the other puppies have overbites. While he said it is possible this is genetic from one of the puppy's ancestors, it is has not been a problem for several lines up. It may just be one of those things that happens. 

As a side note, my puppy WILL be neutered.



I will be scheduling an appointment with a specialist this afternoon.


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## Mark Sloan

Mr. Mason is a good guy and reputable breeder. I am confident he would make it right regarding the puppy. Ron Stokes at k9dogworks.com owns two of his Mals. The older one is his demonstration dog. The younger is littermate to my boy and also off of Mojo (the dog that produced the pup with the overbite). I am no geneticists, but I'd thing neutering Mojo would be a bit extreme. If I misinterpreted an earlier post, I apologize.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Overbites are genetic. Doesn't make the breeder a bad breeder, just selling them is a bit much.


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## Jen Houser

Quick update. Took the puppy in this afternoon. They will be taking x-rays tomorrow morning, but so far it appears he is missing a growth plate in his lower jaw. When I spoke with my vet, she mentioned how he had a small overbite at 10 weeks (she did not see it either at 8 weeks when I first took him in). She said because his overbite has increased this much, it seems to be his lack of, or dysfunctional, growth plate and not your typical overbite. Hopefully I find out more tomorrow. At this point, it would actually be _better_ if it was just a horrible overbite. The growth plate issue will cause a ton of problems down the line.


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## Bob Scott

Jen, sorry to hear that! 
Don't let your heart overide common sense about returning this pup!


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## Jen Houser

Bob Scott said:


> Jen, sorry to hear that!
> Don't let your heart overide common sense about returning this pup!


Thanks, Bob. I know I may differ from many of you when I say this, but he isn't just some dog to me. Yes, he is a working dog and yes, I was planning on getting him into bitework, but I am not looking for a replacement. He's mine and he is stuck with me. I can always get another dog to train in bitework, but my boy is a damn fine dog and he will just have to be a great pet.


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## Bob Scott

I do understand your feelings!


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: but my boy is a damn fine dog 

He is like a minute old. He is not damn fine or great or any of that. People say this shit all the time, and I feel for you and this is just something I hear all the time. How the heck can a puppy get to be a damn fine dog ??? He is a vet bill waiting to happen.


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## Gillian Schuler

Quote from Jen: I know I may differ from many of you when I say this......

I've never been in the position of having to decide whether to keep the pup or not but I can honestly say it wouldn't be easy for me. One of our pups was a Kryptorchide and when it became clear that one of the testicles would probably not descend we could have had a replacement but Toni wouldn't let him go, saying that who knows what would happen to him and whether someone would breed from him later. 

A pup with overbite or jaw problems could be passed from one handler to another. In a family, he might be too much and land in a home. 

I would never critiicise taking a replacement on the other hand and I hope everything turns out all right for you.


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## Lee H Sternberg

I had to put down a couple of "damn fine dogs". Not easy! ](*,)


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## Jen Houser

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: but my boy is a damn fine dog
> 
> He is like a minute old. He is not damn fine or great or any of that. People say this shit all the time, and I feel for you and this is just something I hear all the time. How the heck can a puppy get to be a damn fine dog ??? He is a vet bill waiting to happen.


Fine, the he is a damn fine puppy who will become a damn fine dog. He will never win a title or a competition, but he will wait eagerly every day to greet me when I come home from work. He listens to me, does his best to always please me and rarely leaves my side. As far as I am concerned, that qualifies him right there. The only one he needs to convince of that is me, and he did that a while ago. Sure his vet bills may get very expensive, but to me, he is worth it. Every penny. He isn't some reject just because he was born with something wrong. It just means some of my plans have to change a little. I can deal with that.


Leaving for the x-rays here in about 20 minutes. Wish me luck!


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## Al Curbow

Good luck Jen!!!


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## Gillian Schuler

From me, too, again, good luck!


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Good luck !


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## Jen Houser

Well, we got the results this afternoon. They are good for the situation, but still not exactly good. Thankfully his growth plates are OK and his mouth is developing properly. He just has a regular overbite. Unfortunately, because it is a severe one, he will likely need both lower canines pulled so they won't damage the rest of his mouth. It sucks, but it is what it is. 

Thanks for all the advice everyone. Looks like I will be getting my boy into something other than bitework!


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## Al Curbow

Kinda good news! You'll have to get him a job doing Don Knotts imitations, lol


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## Gillian Schuler

Jen Houser said:


> Well, we got the results this afternoon. They are good for the situation, but still not exactly good. Thankfully his growth plates are OK and his mouth is developing properly. He just has a regular overbite. Unfortunately, because it is a severe one, he will likely need both lower canines pulled so they won't damage the rest of his mouth. It sucks, but it is what it is.
> 
> Thanks for all the advice everyone. Looks like I will be getting my boy into something other than bitework!


Goodonya . there are so many dog sports for a Malinois apart from protection - water, avalanche, catastrope, obedience, agility, tracking, etc. you name it, they are all worth while trying, according to the area you live in. I'm sure members on here would be willing to point you in the right direction. Bite sports are popular - the others nonetheless not inferior.

I'm glad to know he's staying with you and I wish you luck in your chosen sport.


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## Candy Eggert

Jen sounds like the kind of owner breeder's dream of. She loves her pup and is willing to adjust her hopes and dreams for him :smile: Good for you Jen.

It's just a shame that this pup was put in to a home (pet or working) in the first place. The breeder's responsibility and accontability is in question.

Best of luck with your pup, Jen :smile:


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: Jen sounds like the kind of owner breeder's dream of

YES, SHE IS. :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: 

Took it right in the butt and now will give the dog a "good" home. LOL

Here is what will happen Jen, just so you do not think I am just being a dick. You will eventually go and get another dog, because this one doesn't do what you wanted him to do. This dog will get pushed to the side if the other dog is any good at all, cause that is just how it goes. You will spend more time with the other one training, as his ________ is next weekend, and this dog will get left behind.

It happens gradually, and no one does thins on purpose, just one day, you see that this dog has been left behind. That is why I said to send it back right away.

Have the breeder pay the vet bills.


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## Gillian Schuler

There are some who stand by what they say.

There are so many sports that are worthwhile doing apart from protection sports, although I myself am hung up on protection sports.

Don't foresee the end before the story's begun.

Wait and see - maybe this girl has more integrity than you give her credit for.


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## Candy Eggert

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: Jen sounds like the kind of owner breeder's dream of
> 
> YES, SHE IS. :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:
> 
> Took it right in the butt and now will give the dog a "good" home. LOL
> 
> Here is what will happen Jen, just so you do not think I am just being a dick.
> 
> Say it ain't so
> 
> You will eventually go and get another dog, because this one doesn't do what you wanted him to do. This dog will get pushed to the side if the other dog is any good at all, cause that is just how it goes. You will spend more time with the other one training, as his ________ is next weekend, and this dog will get left behind.
> 
> That should make Jen feel better :roll: From her posts I get the feeling she's a pet dog owner (nothing wrong with that) who happened to get a Malinois. She's not jaded like us!
> 
> It happens gradually, and no one does thins on purpose, just one day, you see that this dog has been left behind. That is why I said to send it back right away.
> 
> How many of us train more than one dog at a time? If she decides to get another dog for training she'll find a way to make it happen. We all do!
> 
> Have the breeder pay the vet bills.


Amen and then some! I think some "horse flesh" is called for here :twisted:


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## Jen Houser

Thanks all. Yes, I would qualify myself more as a pet owner; however, this is my first working dog and I am enjoying the possibilities of what he can be great at work-wise. (Everyone has to start somewhere!)

Jeff, everyone is entitled to their opinions, so no, I don't think you are a dick. I do plan on getting another Mal in the future (_not_ because mine can't do bitework) and I don't think Oliver will get pushed to the side. Actually, it might be the opposite since he is my first and therefore will always be considered "more special" if you will.

Without going into specifics, my breeder did everything in his power to make good on his end of the bargain. He is a trustworthy man who I hold in high regard. And when I do get my second Mal, I will be going back to him. I've had many conversations with him, and I still only think the best of him. Things happen sometimes, and people miss things (and two vets did too, so that's got to say something...)

And with that, I'm taking my boy to the park, so I'll chat with you all later. :razz:


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: Actually, it might be the opposite since he is my first and therefore will always be considered "more special" if you will.

We will see, we will see. LOL


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## Tiffany Geisen

Oh Jeff, Always the pessimist!


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