# Police training. Dog abuse?



## Meng Xiong (Jan 21, 2009)

I saw this posted on another forum. Based off the clip, I don't know whats going on out side of the video shot, but the dog looks like its frustrated and gets nippy with the handler. 

My question is... why not just hang the dog instead of body slamming it?

http://youtu.be/6-mJUSk9LUc


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## Thomas Jones (Feb 4, 2011)

obviously thats just a dog and not a police K9. Probably just a guy thats new to handling a K9 and doesn't know better.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Doesn't look like he is hurting the dog to me. I don't see how this would be percieved as worse than hanging the dog. When a dog takes a swipe at you, you correct it immediately or you can expect it to happen again....and each time will up the anti as far as how serious the bite will be. Let's face it, anyone objecting to how this was handle would be afraid to try it in shirt sleeves anyway. I am curious Thomas, how do you figure it is not a police canine?


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## Sandra King (Mar 29, 2011)

So that kind of "method" is okay for you? 

There are different ways on handling a dog like that, it doesn't have to come down to that. Seriously....


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## Thomas Jones (Feb 4, 2011)

strong need for a sarcastic font.


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## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

Sandra King said:


> So that kind of "method" is okay for you?
> 
> There are different ways on handling a dog like that, it doesn't have to come down to that. Seriously....


With some dogs it gets more "interesting" than that.


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## Sandra King (Mar 29, 2011)

Faisal Khan said:


> With some dogs it gets more "interesting" than that.


Sorry to say it. But that dog doesn't strike me as one of 'those' dogs. I know what the 'interesting' dogs look like and that dog doesn't look like one of them. If he was, he would have never taken the bodyslams. That handler would not be alive if he had one of 'those' dogs on the leash and did what he did with that dog.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Thomas Jones said:


> strong need for a sarcastic font.


You mean sarchasm? Sar-chasm. The great void between the one delivering sarcasm and the other that didn't understand it.


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

That is not body slamming the dog, he's rolling him over, not as if that stupid technique works anyway. Obviously the dog is not taking it seriously, he repeatedly goes right back to his nutbag antics. Sorry I just really hate dogs that act stupid like this. Not the way I'd handle my dog but I don't work dogs that act retarded for long anyway. 

Adding the gun was a swell idea too. Dog can't handle what they are asking, let's add more. =;


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## Sandra King (Mar 29, 2011)

Michelle Kehoe said:


> That is not body slamming the dog, he's rolling him over, not as if that stupid technique works anyway. Obviously the dog is not taking it seriously, he repeatedly goes right back to his nutbag antics. Sorry I just really hate dogs that act stupid like this. Not the way I'd handle my dog but I don't work dogs that act retarded for long anyway.
> 
> Adding the gun was a swell idea too. Dog can't handle what they are asking, let's add more. =;


yeah right, let's blame the dog. It's not like it never is the handlers fault that the dog is acting out anyways... =D>


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## Thomas Jones (Feb 4, 2011)

Don Turnipseed said:


> You mean sarchasm? Sar-chasm. The great void between the one delivering sarcasm and the other that didn't understand it.


thats not a word lol


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Thomas Jones said:


> obviously thats just a dog and not a police K9. Probably just a guy thats new to handling a K9 and doesn't know better.


 That's not the full version. I see it's been edited to omit the actual gunfire that initially sets the dog off.

It is a PSD, and a newer handler. Alpha roll is not the way to go IMO.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Sandra King said:


> So that kind of "method" is okay for you?
> 
> There are different ways on handling a dog like that, it doesn't have to come down to that. Seriously....


I would say he was easier on the dog than I would be for taking a swipe at me. But, I have never had to worry about the dog ever doing it the rest of his life. That is the big difference between a life long correction and the "other methods". I can sit hear and think, offhand, of at least 4 or 5 people that have been seriously bite in the course of using other methods. Two with "other method" trainers standing their coaching them. One doesn't count because the traine wasn't coaching, she had the dog and was showing the people and she took the hit. "Other method trainers are alwauys saying timing is everything. In thismcase they are right. The very first time a tough dog even acts like he wants to bite you, you snatch them off the ground and give them a lesson of a life time. If you don't, it will happen again and someone may get hurt. The dg is almost always easier to handle once he understand that he isn't competing with the handler. Then you can get down to serious training. Why don't people correct a dog that is trying to bite them using this method....because they can't and the dog knows it after the first time.


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> I would say he was easier on the dog than I would be for taking a swipe at me. But, I have never had to worry about the dog ever doing it the rest of his life. That is the big difference between a life long correction and the "other methods". I can sit hear and think, offhand, of at least 4 or 5 people that have been seriously bite in the course of using other methods. Two with "other method" trainers standing their coaching them. One doesn't count because the traine wasn't coaching, she had the dog and was showing the people and she took the hit. "Other method trainers are alwauys saying timing is everything. In thismcase they are right. The very first time a tough dog even acts like he wants to bite you, you snatch them off the ground and give them a lesson of a life time. If you don't, it will happen again and someone may get hurt. The dg is almost always easier to handle once he understand that he isn't competing with the handler. Then you can get down to serious training. Why don't people correct a dog that is trying to bite them using this method....because they can't and the dog knows it after the first time.


 I have to deal with an AB tomorrow that will need this type of correction. Gonna be interesting.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Howard Knauf said:


> I have to deal with an AB tomorrow that will need this type of correction. Gonna be interesting.


Don't let anyone videio it Howard. Good luck.


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## Anna Kasho (Jan 16, 2008)

It's a good video illustrating how to tell when your corrections aren't working. Made me laugh because it's so typical of a mal acting stupid - and you can see by the dog's body language each time the handler lets him up that the dog didn't learn a thing. I think both dog and handler are acting out of frustration... And the handler isn't really thinking either.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

I have a question. I know most see this video as compulsive. Why? It looks totally motivational to me. :grin: The truth is, it IS motivational in every sense of the word.


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

theres only one thing wrong in that video:

the handler lost it! didnt keep his head on straight and got angry...no matter how great a handler may be if he loses his temper he isnt going to win anything or teach anything and the dog will just keep at it.

Wouldnt call it abuse but ignorance on how to deal with/handle a dog. If my dog would try and take a nip at me his ass would be connecting with my shoe.....dont get mad, get EVEN !


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Thomas Jones said:


> obviously thats just a dog and not a police K9. Probably just a guy thats new to handling a K9 and doesn't know better.


Sorry Thomas...have to agree with Don here, how do you know its not a K9 ?? not being sarcastic here (simply coze im better at it then most :lol: ) but im genuinly curious on what makes you think it is either a K9 or not.


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Sandra King said:


> So that kind of "method" is okay for you?
> 
> There are different ways on handling a dog like that, it doesn't have to come down to that. Seriously....


Will not say the method is ok for me, not that I consider it abuse, which I do not, but simply coze its dealt with in anger and ignorance, but aside from that, what different way would you use to handle that kind of behaviour ?


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## Meng Xiong (Jan 21, 2009)

The other forum that it was originally posted in stated "dog abuse," I personally don't agree with it mostly in that It dosn't look effective. I've had to hang one of my dogs before when he was young, and it worked great, and thats just habit for me now if a dog starts to get retarded. I don't understand what the guy is trying to do.

I guess I will rephrase my question as, does anyone think this is an effective way to deal with a dog like this (or any dog) in this situation? and why?


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

It is not abuse, it is a dog that does not understand what is expected of him. 

I saw this video years ago, and people were FLIPPING the **** out about it. I don't see any of their dog training videos. LOL 

There needs to be some sort of administrative limit on slamming cops for not knowing how to train or restrain a dog.

It is like teaching the defense of handler to a dog that does not know how to sit under distraction yet. There is no foundation of obedience for this guy to fall back on.

Not really that big a deal.


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

This is another one of the herpes videos that just keeps poping up every couple of years . I've been in a few discussions about it over the years . 

My opinion the " Alpha Roll " is #1 it's ineffective and #2 dangerous(for the handler) . 

I have got to say I'd be pissed off too if my dog is biting me and the training director is telling me to do something that is going to get me bit some more . Lucky for the handler that that dog was taking it easy on him . The handler could have been bitten severely doing that . 

As fo the dog he didn't seem to bothered by any of it .


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## Meng Xiong (Jan 21, 2009)

"herpes video" LoL....


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Anna Kasho said:


> It's a good video illustrating how to tell when your corrections aren't working. Made me laugh because it's so typical of a mal acting stupid - and you can see by the dog's body language each time the handler lets him up that the dog didn't learn a thing. I think both dog and handler are acting out of frustration... And the handler isn't really thinking either.


Pretty close to what I was thinking too. Especially the part about "typical of a mal acting stupid". Adding some more stupid doesn't seem to help


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> It is not abuse, it is a dog that does not understand what is expected of him.
> 
> I saw this video years ago, and people were FLIPPING the **** out about it. I don't see any of their dog training videos. LOL
> 
> ...


So then, your solution here would be..... back up in the training so the dog knows for sure what is expected of it?

Then the dog would be less likely to loose his sh**, and if he did, corrections would be better understood and effective?

Forgive me if I have not decoded your post properly.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

He did do a piss poor job of really correcting the dog which is why the dog didn't stop....he should have been much more definite and kept the dog under control, the first time, until the dog knew it was a bad idea to continue.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

If you watch the video, the dog does not seem to have any idea of what is expected of him. He is excited and biting at his handler, who wether he liked it or not, made a wrestling game as a reward for biting him.

Then, he goes to repeat it, the dog had fun, so he repeats his stupid shit, and they are off to the dumb ass races.

I feel bad for the guy, thousands of people have commented on him as if he had some sort of idea of what he was doing. Way over his head for this situation. Same for whoever was telling him what to do. 

Ken Jaramillo and Keith Jobe always said, before going on the field you have plan A. If that doesn't work, then you have plan B, and then if that doesn't work, you have plan C, which is always take the dog back to the car and figure out what happened.

Write that down.


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> If you watch the video, the dog does not seem to have any idea of what is expected of him. He is excited and biting at his handler, who wether he liked it or not, made a wrestling game as a reward for biting him.
> 
> Then, he goes to repeat it, the dog had fun, so he repeats his stupid shit, and they are off to the dumb ass races.
> 
> ...


Agreed...and wrote that stuff down as instructed8)

But what I really wanted was what your plan A and B would have been for this dog.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

You mean how would I have dealt with it, or how I would train a dog to sit next to me when excited ??


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> You mean how would I have dealt with it, or how I would train a dog to sit next to me when excited ??


I will take the first part please....


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Go back and train the dog to sit under distraction. Tell me you at least thought of that.

As far as that situation, the video if I was in it would have been a lot different looking, as I would have been cursing the guy telling me stupid shit, would have been cursing myself for not having trained the dog to sit, and would have been alpha rolling the guy telling me to do something so ****ing stupid, and the dog would have probably bitten him.


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Go back and train the dog to sit under distraction. Tell me you at least thought of that.


Yah, I have a malinois that is part weasel...so I thought of that..LOL



Jeff Oehlsen said:


> As far as that situation, the video if I was in it would have been a lot different looking, as I would have been cursing the guy telling me stupid shit, would have been cursing myself for not having trained the dog to sit, and would have been alpha rolling the guy telling me to do something so ****ing stupid, and the dog would have probably bitten him.


Thanks, that is what I was looking for. Would have made a good YouTube vid for sure.


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## Rick Cadez Jr. (Dec 1, 2009)

I agree with Jeff. A simple sit command would have helped if he had a proper collar on the dog to give a correction with and use to guide the dog into a sit position. My first day of K9 training I was told never to do the alpha pin down because first the dog can percieve it as a life and death situation and maul you out of survival instinct and also it can cause a confident dog to shut down and never come back from it. The handler was doing as instructed and i dont fault him one bit, however, i do question a trainer who feels thats the proper thing to do in that situation. I see no abuse at all.


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

Sandra King said:


> yeah right, let's blame the dog. It's not like it never is the handlers fault that the dog is acting out anyways... =D>


I will put some blame on the dog. I have put mine in 100's of situations and he never act like a ****tard but he's not a Mal either! Had a half sister that acted like this reject and I sent her ass packing back to the breeder. He was far more thrilled with her "drive" than I was. 

Granted the dog was being pushed too far for what control he had on him, he could have just as easily been out of control forward onto the decoy as appossed to coming back on his handler. 

Typicaly when I lose it, it's directed toward the asswhipe who pissed me off, not the innocent guy sitting next me.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

back to the breeder is the only answer to this. Too many good dogs out there to waste time with this or his breeder.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: I will put some blame on the dog. I have put mine in 100's of situations and he never act like a ****tard but he's not a Mal either!



Of course, the dog could have been assigned to the guy two weeks before. Has nothing to do with being a Mal. I could see a GSD doing the same thing to some clueless guy that knew nothing about dogs or dog training.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: I agree with Jeff. A simple sit command would have helped if he had a proper collar on the dog to give a correction with and use to guide the dog into a sit position.

I don't think the dog knew what sit meant, let alone what he would have been being corrected for. When it is all that far off, I would go back to the beginning.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Way back , to the breeder. Jeff is right if the breeder isn't an option.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: back to the breeder is the only answer to this. 

Cannot send the cop back to Mom and Dad.


Quote: Too many good dogs out there to waste time with this or his breeder.

What was wrong with the dog ?? Should he be blamed for this ?? Look at his face, he thought he was playing. And where the **** are all these dogs that are so good ?? HA HA


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## Kellie Wolverton (Jan 16, 2009)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote:
> Cannot send the cop back to Mom and Dad.


You might be on to something there. Can you even imagine how different people would parent if they had to literally take back their kids and "retrain" and "rehome" ? LOL


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## Martin Koops (Oct 15, 2009)

Have seen the video roughly a year ago. The problem as I remember it was that the dog was possessive of the handlers firearm.

Jeff's back to basics option seems sensible. 
Many great dogs are returned to breeders because basic obedience/control work is not done properly.


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## Ben Colbert (Mar 9, 2010)

Martin Koops said:


> Have seen the video roughly a year ago. The problem as I remember it was that the dog was possessive of the handlers firearm.
> 
> Jeff's back to basics option seems sensible.
> Many great dogs are returned to breeders because basic obedience/control work is not done properly.


How can a dog be "possessive" over something it's never possessed?


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: I will put some blame on the dog. I have put mine in 100's of situations and he never act like a ****tard but he's not a Mal either!
> 
> 
> 
> Of course, the dog could have been assigned to the guy two weeks before. Has nothing to do with being a Mal. I could see a GSD doing the same thing to some clueless guy that knew nothing about dogs or dog training.


Your right Jeff. My screwed, I mean skewed vision just sees this behavior more frequently in Mals than any other breed. 

Back to why they are trying to set the dog up do something it has obviously never seen let alone accomplished is beyond, oh wait..it's not really. I'll be sure to attempt a call off and return to handler on my next 8 week old pup.


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

My understanding was it was aggressive to the gunfire . It then would aggress on the gun when the handler drew it because the dog knew what was coming . 

I had the same issue with my first dog . I did lots of ob and gunfire tolerance training with it and he was doing great . I could shoot on the range and move tactically to cover alongside him with no problems . I had him on the SWAT team and worked him alot under gunfire (from me and others around me) with no problems for a couple of years . 

I then went to a 3 day seminar where I ended up doing several apprehensions that involved gunfire from the suspect and back up officers and sending the dog . Being a new handler I wasn't picking up on the fact that I was basically retraining this dog to be agressive to gunfire and screwing up all the work I put into having him tolerant and obediant to gunfire. 

The last day was then dedicate to tactical shooting on the range with the dog . As soon as I started shooting he began to get more and more worked up and started to agress on the gun to the point I couldn't draw it without him going for it . This all happened within the first few shots . 

I did basically the same thing Jeff suggests worked on downs , stands , sits , under distractions , working up to drawing my gun around him then working my way from smaller to larger calibre rounds being fired around him and having him in control . I was able to get him under control again and learned from my mistake . 

I don't know enough about this dog to know it's quality but in most cases like this I blame the handler and it's training .


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## Sandra King (Mar 29, 2011)

Alice Bezemer said:


> Will not say the method is ok for me, not that I consider it abuse, which I do not, but simply coze its dealt with in anger and ignorance, but aside from that, what different way would you use to handle that kind of behaviour ?


Foundation, Foundation, Foundation!

Anywhere you go, any discipline you work in, obedience, agility, schutzhund, police k9's or SAR, if the foundation is not there you can't expect the dog to know what to do and obviously, those two do not only lack foundation but also a common ground of engagement. 

What I don't understand, wouldn't it be more beneficial if they had a rock solid foundation they can fall back on? 

If I was the trainer, I would have taken the dog out of his hands until he cooled down and then given it back to him once he was calm. 

I have a bitch that is so ball crazy that she got my arm and hand many times instead of the ball and she did the same thing with the helper. The minuted I handed the ball, she leaped forward going after it and got the helpers hand. 

That second we dropped any training we had planned and went back to the basics. We did any distraction training that we could possibly do, which involved her and any other ball. 
And that moment, a swift leash correction, putting her into a sit and training it over and over and over again. Throwing balls, having her in a downstay and other dogs chasing her ball until she realized that she's not going to get it unless she behaves and does exactly what we expect from her. 

Consistency and Discipline does the trick in a lot of situations but this isn't the first K9 Handler I see that doesn't know what he's actually doing. His response to the dog was way over the top and it could have been approached a different way. 

And look at that, having my dog under control doesn't kill the drive either. Yes, sometimes a strong hand isn't the worst thing but what was done in that video, with a guy that doesn't really know what he is doing, was the worst possible mistake they could have done. None of the dogs I knew that went into police work would have taken what he did. They probably would have mauled him to death.


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

I'll just add that in the seminar I spoke of the vast majority of the gunfire before or while the dog was being sent was from back up officers in the form of mostly beanbag rounds or other less lethal tools and some gunfire from the officers at times .


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## Laney Rein (Feb 9, 2011)

let's just say that what a mistake it was to let this get filmed and if only for training discussions on how NOT to handle a situation. The voice in the background was as much of the problem as anything. the biggest OOPS inthis whole situation is that it got posted for everyone to evaluate. I agree w/the stop what we're doing, everyone calm down, work on something to finish positively and quit. Then go back to foundation. For whatever it's worth. I would think Jim would know since he's actually been sort of in this seat, although much more knowledgeable.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: For whatever it's worth. I would think Jim would know since he's actually been sort of in this seat, although much more knowledgeable.

On what, how to teach sit under distraction ??


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## John-Ashley Hill (Jan 5, 2011)

Obviously the dog needs some basic obedience work and needs to be able to sit under distraction as Jeff said but I think there is probalby more issues that they are dealing with. Like Jim, when I first got my dog I did some bitework scenarios where suspect fired a gun and the dog keyed in on it and was sent for a bite or was used to locate where the gunshot originated from and then was sent for bite. Doing the scenario too many times and it becomes a ritual that tells the dog what he is expected to do without even giving a command. Its the same thing as someone who lets their dog get equipment fixated, bite suit just laying on the ground and the dog walks by and starts tearing it apart. The same thing happened to me a bunch of scenarios with the suspect firing because I was new and wanted to see that Renzo would not shy away from an attack with gunfire. When I realized it may be good for him to be by me while I fired a gun, he would turn and bark at me although he never bit. Same as when I used to use a sleeve or suit too much, pop the trunk and get out a bite sleeve/suit and Renzo would start barking, he knew the beginning to that ritual and what it meant for him. My point is that dog may do obedience fine under distraction( people running past, dogs, cats, etc.) But if he has seen the decoy fire the gun and associated it as part of a bite routine then he will act that way the first time the handler fires a gun. The handler may as well put on a sleeve and crack a whip at the dog, I think that the fact that the dog doesnt light him is a testament to the dog.


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## Anna Kasho (Jan 16, 2008)

I remembered something, either this video or a very similar video came up on LB in a discussion about PPD's (or maybe PSD's, not sure) being trained to go for the badguy's hand with the weapon. This was quite some time ago, but to sum up, the vid was posted to show why it's a really bad idea 

I don't know if that's the case with this dog, more likely just a frustrated mal overreacting to the noise, but anyway, interesting.


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## Laney Rein (Feb 9, 2011)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: For whatever it's worth. I would think Jim would know since he's actually been sort of in this seat, although much more knowledgeable.
> 
> On what, how to teach sit under distraction ??


Jeff, you're always sooooo funny, always trying to distract threads, just love your antics. Like you said boys can write their name in snow - something only little boys do. Play nice once in a while, course there's always a class clown. So guess you're amusing sometimes #-o

Seems like more people, back to the thread, feel that the dog does need more reinforcement in distraction, possibly in that specific situation, working with the gun fire. Also need to tone down the temper on the handler. Not every dog can be bullied or man handled in the Alpha position.


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## Thomas Jones (Feb 4, 2011)

Alice Bezemer said:


> Sorry Thomas...have to agree with Don here, how do you know its not a K9 ?? not being sarcastic here (simply coze im better at it then most :lol: ) but im genuinly curious on what makes you think it is either a K9 or not.


 
I just knew that a cop wouldn't be doing that to another cop ;-)


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: Jeff, you're always sooooo funny, always trying to distract threads, just love your antics. Like you said boys can write their name in snow - something only little boys do. Play nice once in a while, course there's always a class clown. So guess you're amusing sometimes.

I am always amusing thank you very much. Have you read my post on the dog who barks to much when finding victims of drowning ?? If not, you should. 

As to wether or not men write their name in the snow, if you don't know that we all do this, then that is the sad reality that you are dating girls. Well, weak sissy girls, as I know some that write their names happily in the snow. Or maybe you have just shriveled every guy you have been out withs manhood to the point where they could not pull it off.

Quote: Not every dog can be bullied or man handled in the Alpha position.

Not by a stupid girl. Every dog can be bullied and man handled in the alpha position. You just choke them stupid for a while. They are dogs badge bunny, not some super natural force. 

So how glad you must be that you put your two cents in here.


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## Laney Rein (Feb 9, 2011)

Showing your maturity again, Jeff! I'm not some girlie and I don't date girlies. I am married and have been for 27 years to a great guy who is a project manager in construction/fiber optics and I worked vet med - large animal and small (phx police canines) for many years opting out of vet school due to health reasons. I have a 22 yo son who goes to college and works construction and is 6'4 and weighs 240. I have had working dogs for over 40 years and have titled many of them. I run with the ropers and can hold my own in the roping arena and on world class reining horses. I am not some big out of shape girlie and am very active obviously, in outdoor sports.

While I appreciate your knowledge, I do not think you are particularly funny or amusing in any aspect. Keep it up, I will continue to quip in when I feel strongly about a topic, not just because I want to derail it or think I'm so funny everyone needs to benefit from my perceived humor.

Now if you'd stay on subject and quit trying to belittle and berate me and act more like Chuck Norris instead of Mickey Mouse we could all enjoy each other's comments. Say goodnight Gracie, errrrr Jeff.

Sorry guys, had to clear up a little matter, on with the show.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

You lost me. You are 6'4" and rope horses with a health issue and are not a vet tech with police dogs because of it ??

Chuck Norris would roundhouse kick you to the head. 

This video has been discussed here and many other places. Go and learn to use your search function, and you won't have to be bothered by anyone. I highly recommend the ignore function. That way you won't see anything I write.

Otherwise, you get this shit for free, and don't get to tell me how I dish it out.


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## Matthew Grubb (Nov 16, 2007)

Alpha rolls are a dumb trick that doesnt work... No wonder the dog is confused, dogs don't alpha roll other dogs, they submissive roll themselves.


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## Laney Rein (Feb 9, 2011)

I give, I'll just ignore you. Obviously you appreciate babes like Victoria Custis. I agree with Don on that one. Oh, you might want to at least show something impressive on your website, since you're so into people sending you videos and posting pictures. Balabanov or Ellis mals? Nice dogs. I'll give you that one. My dog is from FR and PPD lines, so in your eyes wellbred - if that's what it takes. Imported from France. Now, ignore.


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## Stacy Moseley (Jan 22, 2011)

Sandra King said:


> yeah right, let's blame the dog. It's not like it never is the handlers fault that the dog is acting out anyways... =D>


I second this. I mean it is not a body slam but it is the worst alpha roll that I have ever seen. The handler is not calm he is angry and frustrated so until he calms down the dog will never listen to him.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

No, no Laney, there is a thing you do and then you just cannot see what I am writing anymore. Just do that. Otherwise you are just a dodgy little shit like the rest of them.


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## Pete Stevens (Dec 16, 2010)

I blame the trainer, not the handler. Like lots have said, if plan A isn't working move to plan B, C, D etc. My first dog was gunfire and handler aggressive, not a good combo. It took a lot of work and taking baby steps. Dry firing, cap guns, starter pistols, range time, then tactical shooting. Repeated attempts at an alpha roll that didn't work the first 10 times is piss poor training. The handler is only doing what he is told and I don't see abuse just crappy training. I do see the handler is not trying to hurt the dog because he isn't slamming the dog. Wish the trainer would put down the effing camera and help out.

So many better ways to handle that situation and I hope the team was able to address and fix that issue because it wil lead to more down the road.


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Pete Stevens said:


> Wish the trainer would put down the effing camera and help out.
> .


 Then the moron would be on camera showing the world he doesn't know WTF is going on. I feel sorry for new handlers with crap instructors. In the end, the new handler takes the heat.


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Howard Knauf said:


> That's not the full version. I see it's been edited to omit the actual gunfire that initially sets the dog off.
> 
> It is a PSD, and a newer handler. Alpha roll is not the way to go IMO.


Howard I agree the alpha roll with the wrong dog will get you hurt.


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