# couple of candidates tested for patrol



## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=u8KvfcmF6WU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=ERzzfqZw4g0

two nice dogs I had a chance to test for a couple of days for dual purpose patrol work


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## keith shimada (Dec 7, 2009)

hi, the videos are private.


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

sorry....fixed


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

Thank you for sharing. 

Did the department get both? If not, what made one get chosen vs the other?


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Both of them certainly looked like they have potential. They sure aren't green though, ha ha. Short video and just from that, I prefer the male. He seems more serious. 

DFrost


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

Both were solid...the male more serious in apprehension...the female was a vacuum with her nose... both happy social dogs liked them alot...

City stalled and we lost out...still fun playing with them for a couple days.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Am I missing something??? The dogs are so focused on the arm that you can pick them up, put them on your shoulder, put your arms around them,....stick a knife in them. Look like point dogs for sport, not serious police dogs....but what do I know. What am I missing?


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

it beyond you...stick to what you know

Sent from my SCH-I510 using Tapatalk 2


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

will fernandez said:


> it beyond you...stick to what you know
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I510 using Tapatalk 2


Must be beyond me Will. I have seen police dogs that were dead game serious I wouldn't Fk with.....the ones I see here, following the no rebite rule got a short life expectancy unless the LE is right there with them to save em. Your dept didn't lose much unless they were really good at detection. They are dual purpose sport dogs at best. Lots of points tho. Maybe liability safe???


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

Don



I dont know why I bother but here we go...they are two young dogs that all they know is bite and search for a ball...they are dogs with potential to be PSD...

Thank you for sharing your vast body of knowledge and experience


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Don. 

What would you have liked to have seen in a young PSD candidate in the situation presented in the videos?


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> Don.
> 
> What would you have liked to have seen in a young PSD candidate in the situation presented in the videos?


Probably something along the lines of that rabbit I dreamed about. Not only did it chase, and bite, and keep with the pursuit of its victim, it was stable on high surfaces, and rebit when it needed to. Shitz, now if I could only find that sucker and box it up for Will.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Like David said, "they sure arent green tho ha, ha" They look like sport dogs to me. Sorry if you aren't happy with that Will. A dog that is all over you is a better dog in my mind for dealing with desperate people. That sport dog mentality is counter productive....in real situations. I know what a serious civil dog looks like even if I don't do sport work......that ain't it.


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

ok...Don...thank you for your opinion...

But Don with where I work I need a dog that doesnt let go...until told to do so...The dog is for controlling a situation..not causing as much damage as possible

There are a bunch of other reasons that I dont want a dog to let go...if I must I will explain but how about we just agree to disagree...

When you have one that can get near a suit let me know....I will happily test him out and if he is any good I will make sure we purchase him.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

LOL, your not as cool as Tiago and Daryl , Will. I know you are impressed with those two sport dogs, but, reality is reality. Civil is civil....no chasing rags and balls, they get their man and bring them to their knees. I know you guys are up against the wall with liability isssues with real dogs, but, this is what I see, like it or not. You lost out on a couple of sport dogs. Don't sweat it. Plenty of them around....although these were good sport dogs. They might even scare someone with misdemeanors, but not the heavy hitters that may kill you.


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

Don you wouldn't know civil if it kicked you in the mouth....but you can keep trying..


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Don how can you tell if these dogs are not civil from the video posted.

I saw no evidence that could lead me to that conclusion.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

I know you guys know he doesn't know what he's talking about. Sometimes he reminds me of a tag along who tries to act cooler than he is. Thinking back, kids like that always got their asses kicked at parties. Course that's a little like a pinata once it got all the candy knocked out of it. Nobody finds it interesting anymore.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

will fernandez said:


> Don you wouldn't know civil if it kicked you in the mouth....but you can keep trying..


Oh, Will I do know what a civil dog is. Even you will have to agree these two videos do not show a civil dog....provided you know what one is. The most coherent p[oist you have made yet is thate one stating that you have to have a dog that will hold and not let go. If that is what you need....great. That is what those two dogs had.....

What I see is lifting them to the shoulder, wrapping your arms around them, yadda yadda. If you can do it, so can a serious felon. You can kill a dog ,like that. I have seen civil dogs that have no compuntion about releasing and taking half your face off in one stroke. Those are the dogs that get the job done......but, they are a liability I do understand, you want one that will hold withpout minflicting serious damage and getting the county sued....that's great. It is just a discussion Will, don't get defensive. LOL


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

im not defensive just stating the facts


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

will fernandez said:


> im not defensive just stating the facts


Me too!


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Don 

NO police department wants dogs that go for the face, (unless you are in the Ukraine in some small town, with thug police)

99.9% of police departments worldwide want dogs that will hold a bite.

All police departments want CIVIL dogs for patrol work..

I ask you again, how can you say that either of these dogs are not civil, there was nothing in the video that would warrant the dogs to be civil.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Too bad, Guess that is why they buy sport dogs.


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## Ariel Peldunas (Oct 18, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Must be beyond me Will. I have seen police dogs that were dead game serious I wouldn't Fk with.....the ones I see here, following the no rebite rule got a short life expectancy unless the LE is right there with them to save em. Your dept didn't lose much unless they were really good at detection. They are dual purpose sport dogs at best. Lots of points tho. Maybe liability safe???


Don, it's amazing that you can assess whether or not a dog has a civil side from watching one short suit bite. Additionally, I'm impressed that you can determine that these dogs come from or are best suited for sport work. Why hasn't a PD hired you to selection test dogs for them yet? They would save a lot of time and effort. All the vendors would have to do is send you a short video clip and you'd tell them if the dog was right for the job or not. I bet you'd pick the dogs that snarl and growl and pin their ears back and lash out at the decoy, wouldn't you?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

forgive me MODS.

Don you are a complete idiot...it is confirmed.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> The most coherent p[oist you have made yet is thate one stating that you have to have a dog that will hold and not let go. If that is what you need....great. That is what those two dogs had.....
> 
> What I see is lifting them to the shoulder, wrapping your arms around them, yadda yadda. If you can do it, so can a serious felon. You can kill a dog ,like that.


Oh, so a bite and hold isn't useful? Tell this to the guy in the video. For those who need a warning this video IS graphic.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GHkAejdpHlo&feature=g-all-f


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Ariel Peldunas said:


> Don, it's amazing that you can assess whether or not a dog has a civil side from watching one short suit bite. Additionally, I'm impressed that you can determine that these dogs come from or are best suited for sport work. Why hasn't a PD hired you to selection test dogs for them yet? They would save a lot of time and effort. All the vendors would have to do is send you a short video clip and you'd tell them if the dog was right for the job or not. I bet you'd pick the dogs that snarl and growl and pin their ears back and lash out at the decoy, wouldn't you?


I would pick the serious dog that was totally composed Ariel...but I know you would pick the ones that chased the towel for sure. LOL That is what you know.


Good night John Boy....it has been fun.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> I would pick the serious dog that was totally composed Ariel...but I know you would pick the ones that chased the towel for sure. LOL That is what you know.
> 
> 
> Goold night John Boy....it has been fun.


wouldnt expect anything more from you, say a bunch of stupid crap, and then bow out of a debate...as per your usual modus operandi....


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## Ariel Peldunas (Oct 18, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> I would pick the serious dog that was totally composed Ariel...but I know you would pick the ones that chased the towel for sure. LOL That is what you know.
> 
> 
> Good night John Boy....it has been fun.


The serious one that's more composed but has no drive and runs away from games? I'll stick with the dogs with both drive and confidence. I don't expect you to understand because clearly, you don't know.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

I just came in from the kennel and Ariel said I had to read Don's post.
I just have two things to say.....
#1.........Don, you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about
#2......... Nicole, that video was AWESOME!!!!


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Nicole Stark said:


> Oh, so a bite and hold isn't useful? Tell this to the guy in the video. For those who need a warning this video IS graphic.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GHkAejdpHlo&feature=g-all-f



I have to say that the first thing I'd do when I got loose from that dog is kick the crap out of the camera guy!


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

My thoughts exactly, or choke on the bloody stump.


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## Jeremy Wall (Jul 21, 2011)

Don Turnipseed said:


> LOL, your not as cool as Tiago and Daryl , Will. I know you are impressed with those two sport dogs, but, reality is reality. Civil is civil....no chasing rags and balls, they get their man and bring them to their knees. I know you guys are up against the wall with liability isssues with real dogs, but, this is what I see, like it or not. You lost out on a couple of sport dogs. Don't sweat it. Plenty of them around....although these were good sport dogs. They might even scare someone with misdemeanors, but not the heavy hitters that may kill you.


Been watching this site for months as this guy talks out of A$$ on things he obviously has no clue about. Don I bet you have never trained or been bitten by a serious police dog, or you would not make such uneducated and incompetent remarks. You obviously have no clue what you are looking at and should leave the conversation to those that do......dont feed the Troll people!


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Jeremy Wall said:


> Been watching this site for months as this guy talks out of A$$ on things he obviously has no clue about. Don I bet you have never trained or been bitten by a serious police dog, or you would not make such uneducated and incompetent remarks. You obviously have no clue what you are looking at and should leave the conversation to those that do......dont feed the Troll people!


Oh God, another dweeb! Don't ever disagree or your a troll. Love the mentality. The dogs are predictable. Probably close their eyes once they are on the bite.


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## Pete Stevens (Dec 16, 2010)

Both looked fine from what I saw. I'm pretty sure that is the testing that was done either. Amazing what some people can see in a dog from a 1 minute video clip. For that exercise, both were acceptable (pretty good actually0. The male seemed a little more stable but both looked just fine to me. How did they do on other stuff?


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Let me see. here's Joby, Nicole. shall I keep naming the others that don't know shit. Listening to Joby you would think he was one of the boys. How many dogs you trained for LE Joby? Surprised Brad isn't here....he is training a tracking dog you know. 

When I see a dog hold while you practically make love to it.....something is wrong. Just my opinion because I would rather deal with that dog than one that regripped.


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## Ariel Peldunas (Oct 18, 2008)

Jeremy Wall said:


> Don I bet you have never trained or been bitten by a serious police dog, or you would not make such uneducated and incompetent remarks.


No, probably not. But I bet he did watch The Adventures of Rin Tin Tin as a child.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Pete Stevens said:


> Both looked fine from what I saw. I'm pretty sure that is the testing that was done either. Amazing what some people can see in a dog from a 1 minute video clip. For that exercise, both were acceptable (pretty good actually0. The male seemed a little more stable but both looked just fine to me. How did they do on other stuff?


They actually looked fine to me too Pete.
They did exactly what they were traiined to do. I don't why the vid are ever put up if your not supposed to see anything. Seems pretty pointless. What I noticed is how the dog was being handled withpout letting go. I know that is probably what was being tested and what is wanted. Just doesn't make sence. It is kind of like having a calm grip. Screw the calm grip....it is only what some percieve as good for a game.


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## Ariel Peldunas (Oct 18, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> They actually looked fine to me too Pete.
> They did exactly what they were traiined to do. I don't why the vid are ever put up if your not supposed to see anything. Seems pretty pointless. What I noticed is how the dog was being handled withpout letting go. I know that is probably what was being tested and what is wanted. Just doesn't make sence. It is kind of like having a calm grip. Screw the calm grip....it is only what some percieve as good for a game.


You just don't get it, Don. The calm grip, biting and holding, allowing themselves to be picked up and touched all over ...these are all indicators of dogs with strong nerve, confidence and a desire to bite that will motivate them through new, scary and uncomfortable situations. Many dogs that let go and rebite repeatedly or have shallow, chewy grips have thin nerves and lack confidence. Although that may seem okay when there's a decoy standing there in a bite suit putting minimal pressure on them, it's not going to fly when they are faced with an adversary that really wants to hurt them. That's when dogs like that run. I would think you might understand that concept by now. 

There's a reason why the trainers and handlers that require the strongest dogs prefer dogs that bite and hold and grip full. Do you think they are all so brainwashed that they just prefer that because someone else told them they should?


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Jeremy Wall said:


> Been watching this site for months as this guy talks out of A$$ on things he obviously has no clue about. Don I bet you have never trained or been bitten by a serious police dog, or you would not make such uneducated and incompetent remarks. You obviously have no clue what you are looking at and should leave the conversation to those that do......dont feed the Troll people!


And how many serious police dogs have you actually trained yourself.....and/or been bitten by. In your mind Jeremy, is it a real plus to be stupid enough to let a pOlice dog bite you so you can actually say this is a better bite and I don't know as much as you. Is that really how you decide this bite is better than that bite. If that was true no one would want a calm firm bite. Maybe they should line you guys up against the wall and put a dog on each one of you, with no suit, so you can actually difinitively say, Don, this is actually a better bite....see these scars...... Naw, it is safer to sit on a computer and say "bet Don has never been bit by a real police dog. Just watch Rin Tin Tin." The truth be know watching Rin Tin Tin is probably what got you into dogs. Been fun. Ya'll make as much sense as usual... Welcome to the board Jeremy.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> And how many serious police dogs have you actually trained yourself.....and/or been bitten by. In your mind Jeremy, is it a real plus to be stupid enough to let a pOlice dog bite you so you can actually say this is a better bite and I don't know as much as you. Is that really how you decide this bite is better than that bite. If that was true no one would want a calm firm bite. Maybe they should line you guys up against the wall and put a dog on each one of you, with no suit, so you can actually difinitively say, Don, this is actually a better bite....see these scars...... Naw, it is safer to sit on a computer and say "bet Don has never been bit by a real police dog. Just watch Rin Tin Tin." The truth be know watching Rin Tin Tin is probably what got you into dogs. Been fun. Ya'll make as much sense as usual... Welcome to the board Jeremy.


I've trained a bunch and have been bitten by more than I should have. Those dogs were being tested for suitability pure and simple. There were not being given a proficiency test. You have no credibility when it comes to police dogs. You've demonstrated that fact in almost every comment you make relative police dogs. I can't speak to other types because it's not my area of specialty. Your constant trolling however, is becoming tiring. 

DFrost


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Ariel Peldunas said:


> You just don't get it, Don. The calm grip, biting and holding, allowing themselves to be picked up and touched all over ...these are all indicators of dogs with strong nerve, confidence and a desire to bite that will motivate them through new, scary and uncomfortable situations. Many dogs that let go and rebite repeatedly or have shallow, chewy grips have thin nerves and lack confidence. Although that may seem okay when there's a decoy standing there in a bite suit putting minimal pressure on them, it's not going to fly when they are faced with an adversary that really wants to hurt them. That's when dogs like that run. I would think you might understand that concept by now.
> 
> There's a reason why the trainers and handlers that require the strongest dogs prefer dogs that bite and hold and grip full. Do you think they are all so brainwashed that they just prefer that because someone else told them they should?


O god Ariel, do we have to read your repitoire of teminology once again. Beginning with you don't get it Don. LOL Everyone knows you know the words Ariel....give it a rest.


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

don

i know you have no experience with this so i will explain..in a real fight for his life situation the dog that re grips with minimal pressure will certainly run when it knows they cant win...a dog that is is biting and holding with a calm vice like grip in all types of training will certainly re grip if it has too in a bad situation. and the odds of staying in the fight when it knows it may end badly is more likely..

a noisy regripping dog with minmal pressure will cur like one of your show dogs at the slightest amount of pressure....i know this is what you are use to and like to sell but it is not what we are buying...


Sent from my SCH-I510 using Tapatalk 2


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Let me see. here's Joby, Nicole. shall I keep naming the others that don't know shit. Listening to Joby you would think he was one of the boys. How many dogs you trained for LE Joby? Surprised Brad isn't here....he is training a tracking dog you know.
> 
> When I see a dog hold while you practically make love to it.....something is wrong. Just my opinion because I would rather deal with that dog than one that regripped.


Don.. Dont need to be LE to know what a civil dog is or what PSD people are looking for...MORON...They want a good dog, with the correct drives ad character, with strong nerves, with a civil edge and real aggression in the work, that will stay in the fight if the suspect fights back.

Been in plenty of buildings, waiting for the PSD to come in, been in plenty of woods and fields, waiting for the PSD to come in, taken probably in excess of 1000 bites from PSD over the years in suit, sleeve, hidden suit, hidden sleeve, and fought quite a few in a muzzle...
worked for a couple police dog trainers/vendors, was a "resisting arrest" bite boy for another on the weekend, over the last 18 yrs or so I have been involved in the training of many many PP dogs at many locations, several of which, where the local Police would bring their dogs to train as well. One of my current best friends is a police officer, who has bred and trained PSD as well, and we quite often work together with dogs from the surrounding cities and counties, most of which have offered to buy my dog from me that I currently own. 

I asked you a simple question, what is CIVIL? The short videos posted here are videos of 1 bite, targeted to one area on the suit, in a low key, calm fashion, with absolutely NO reason for the dogs to be civil. There was not even any civil testing on the vids. Civil means that they will bite a person that does not have bite equipment on, it does not mean that they will not enjoy biting someone who is in equipment. 

I have also owned several dogs of the type that you seem to like, that have torn pieces out of people, that would be more of a riot type dog mentality, dogs that do not hold bites long and will jump around and bite multiple people, they were good dogs for what I had them for, which was guard and protection, dogs that wanted to tear people to pieces. 

Police departments do not have dogs to tear people apart, or to terrorize or traumatize them with maximum physical damage, or try to kill them or rip their faces off, they have dog to locate, and/or control fleeing/hiding suspects, and to protect the handlers. They want stable dogs, with hard bites, that will bite and hold the suspect, so he can be more easily taken into custody by the officers. I dont have to be a cop to know this.

If you think that a police dog that is gonna bite and hold you is just gonna sit there and be nice while you try to make love to it, you should try it sometime. Who is gonna try to make love to a PSD? 

The point is, these were young CANDIDATES being given easy, non-confrontational bites on the jacket, there was no reason for the dogs to be civil or even aggressive. They bit the jacket and showed stability in a fairly calm situation, I hope you run across them later, when they are on the street, biting people for real, after they are actually trained to be PSD then you can try to make love to them, and see how they respond to that.

As usual you do not know what a very common dog term means, CIVIL.
It does not mean unstable, out of control, or crazy aggressive all the time, it means able to bite someone for real...


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

being angry because you have wasted your life breeding dogs that cant work is not our fault....take a look in the mirror and tell yourself you are okay there is still time for you to turn it around....but not if you continue to waste time with your angry misdirected posts....i have faith in you brother now its time to have faith in yourself

Sent from my SCH-I510 using Tapatalk 2


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Will, dogs look great. Especially the male. Sorry you missed out on them. I never look at these videos, but, last night was just one of those boring nights on the mountain. I did watch the Israeli Dog video a loong time ago. Nice dogs.

My dogs do what they were bred for Will, same as the dogs in the video. Funny thing is, they release and regrip....but never leave a fight they can't win. Must be a difference in the breeds.

I am outa here.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

People that actually use dogs to CATCH pigs, also like a deep calm grip, bite and hold, so the dog can physically fight and control the pig, so the hunters can get in close enough to dispatch him. They do not choose dogs that bite and release.


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

the shame isnt the lie but actualky believing the lie you told.

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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> The dogs are predictable. Probably close their eyes once they are on the bite.


Yeah, probably so.


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## Travis Ragin (Apr 10, 2010)

Ariel Peldunas said:


> Although that may seem okay when there's a decoy standing there in a bite suit putting minimal pressure on them, it's not going to fly when they are faced with an adversary *that really wants to hurt them.*


Hi,


I have a question....just reverse this scenario


You have a dog that is facing an adversary(human) twice his size.........the DOG *really wants to hurt HIM.


*In this scenario,what specific things would you judge on and attribute to the dog having solid "nerve" and also high confidence?




t


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## Pete Stevens (Dec 16, 2010)

I'm not an admin guy but I have tested plenty of PSD's and I continue to train with PSD's nearly every day( minus days off) doing some sort of LE training either detection or patrol. I will take a dog with a calm, firm grip over one that is like a typewriter. Being in So Cal, in the People Republic of California, home of kinda sorta legal weed and more lawyers than doctors, I would much rather have a K9 apprehension of a suspect be four puncture wounds from 1 grip than 20 from a bunch of rebites. PSD's with nice calm grips usually perform better in areas as well because they tend to be generally more focused.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

With all those people on weed I would have thought a violent apprehension would never be in your scope of operation??

Be more like chill with all the macho 'tude man, smoke up some of this bad boy I got right here and lets talk about it.


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

Pete Stevens said:


> How did they do on other stuff?


They did well with a muzzle and no equipment, they did well with more pressure in the suit, searched well a in a fire training tower which messes with alot of dogs...

Good dogs that have the ability to be above average police dogs...

Not saying they are extreme but just that they have the potential to be better or much better than average.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Pete Stevens said:


> I would much rather have a K9 apprehension of a suspect be four puncture wounds from 1 grip than 20 from a bunch of rebites. PSD's with nice calm grips usually perform better in areas as well because they tend to be generally more focused.



That has always been my philosophy. Pursue, engage, remain engaged until told to do otherwise. Anything beyond that is nothing more than; mine is bigger than yours. 

I've said that more than once on this forum. 

DFrost


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

I concur, David. Those two in the video are my kind of dogs. I am "slowly" seeing the bigger picture. :wink:


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> I concur, David. Those two in the video are my kind of dogs. I am "slowly" seeing the bigger picture. :wink:



Could I borrow a couple of whatever you're enjoying today? I can be there in about 3 1/2 hours.


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Could I borrow a couple of whatever you're enjoying today? I can be there in about 3 1/2 hours.


Maybe he could just send you some or even drive it over to you. On second thought maybe not drive it over.:grin:


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

Bob Scott said:


> I have to say that the first thing I'd do when I got loose from that dog is kick the crap out of the camera guy!



Who's the bastard that was filming??????? The guy must be sick/retarded, he should have at least tried to hit the dog from across the fence.....That was just horrible to watch


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Am I missing something??? The dogs are so focused on the arm that you can pick them up, put them on your shoulder, put your arms around them,....stick a knife in them. Look like point dogs for sport, not serious police dogs....but what do I know. What am I missing?


No matter how a dog bites, its still a 'time-buying' tool for officers, leave a man and a dog in a fight long enough and the smarter creature will be better off. There are also liability issues, you don't want the public to view the dogs as senseless biting machines.
Dogs re-grip when necessary , maybe the neck is turned or the initial bite wasn't as good as they'd like......Both dogs look good, most likely KNPV lines judging by their biting style


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