# Hard dogs need hard corrections?



## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

I was at schutzhund training on the weekend and one of the new club members commented on the level of correction used by a couple of handlers doing obedience on the field. Another member responded, “hard dogs need hard corrections” Both handlers that we were watching are, IMO, fairly heavy handed in their training, but then they also both work with ‘hard’ dogs. 

So it started me thinking. I am still fairly new to schutzhund training. I have probably never owned a truly ‘hard’ dog in my life, though I’m not entirely sure what defines a hard dog.

I understand that if you are going to correct a dog, then it must be meaningful, or else you’re just nagging. But if every correction for every disobedience is over the top, does that result in a dog that just works through the discomfort and becomes harder to the corrections? Ie: If you’re always shouting, the dog never hears a whisper? Or is that oversimplifying?

Do hard dogs need hard corrections?


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## Alyssa Myracle (Aug 4, 2008)

It's a balance.

I've seen dogs that were truly hard, and truly needed some severe corrections to get the point across.

I've also seen handlers who were just heavy handed, and the dog learned to tolerate severe corrections, and eventually ignore them. To the extent that now the dog is falling apart.
Some people correct their dog to the extent that the dog stops thinking, it just waits to get yanked where it's supposed to go. If you take the leash and corrections away, the dog *doesn't* know how to perform very simple commands, because it has stopped thinking or learning. It just waits to be corrected into position.

A large percent of the time, these so called "hard" dogs, received training as young dogs, that didn't really work for them. If they'd been trained more motivationally as young dogs, and allowed to actually "learn", they wouldn't be so "hard" as older dogs. 
Usually all those hard corrections are needed to fix prior training mistakes.

My dog is hard as hell to physical correction. You could rip her head off, and she'd just keep going. 
Verbal corrections though, can damn near take her clean out of drive, if they are given too harshly.
I personally think that even with most hard dogs, there is a way around that "hardness", to work with the dog without constantly having to be kicking the crap out of it.

There are exceptions, but they are rare, IMO.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

My dogs are moderately soft to moderately hard, so I don't have a real hard dog (though I've had a few fosters who were dogs with a hard temperament). However, I do think a lot of these situations can be avoided by understanding how to outfox the fox. Corrections can have their place, sure, but the more you use them, I'd suspect you may have to continually up the ante with some dogs. So if you work smart with your dog and teach them, they may be at least partially avoided.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

> Some people correct their dog to the extent that the dog stops thinking, it just waits to get yanked where it's supposed to go. If you take the leash and corrections away, the dog doesn't know how to perform very simple commands, because it has stopped thinking or learning. It just waits to be corrected into position.


This is called "Learned Helplessness" and it is a product of abusive training. The dog has learned there is nothing it can do to escape the correction. The handler has not taught the dog the behavior (in a way the dog understands) and/or does not communicate to the dog before correcting.

I won't call this a hard dog. Let's try "longsuffering." I'm amazed that more of these dogs don't bite the handler. What a miserable life for these dogs.


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## Courtney Guthrie (Oct 30, 2007)

Hmm.....As the owner of a Hard Dog.....I can tell you that things are SO much tougher than with a nice moderate dog. 

Judge requires a much harder correction than my APBT. However, if you go too far with him, he shuts down. 

IMHO- You as a handler and trainer need to find what works for your dog as far as corrections go and the level needed. What works for my dog may look really hard to some folks and they'd never use that level on their dogs but that's the lowest level of a correction that I can give my dog. Hope that made sense. 

I as a trainer, always use the lowest level of correction that I can. Otherwise.....you end up with a VERY confused dog that doesn;t know anythign but yank and crank. 

Courtney


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

Anne Vaini said:


> This is called "Learned Helplessness" and it is a product of abusive training.


I was wondering if something along those lines would result... for the dog there is no escape, only endurance.

Is the other extreme (or another part of the spectrum), the handler aggressive dog?


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

After years with a half dozen different terrier breeds I've had some seriously "hard" dogs. They take a licking and keep on ticking. 
Then I got smart and found out that they will do anything asked if you convince them they are having a good time.
Why pick a fight with a dog that loves to fight!!?
My GSDs are a piece of cake to train compaired to most of the terriers I've had. A lot of that has to do with the fact that I no longer feel the need to be "hard" with my dogs. 
Leadership goes a lot further then physical control! 
My son's favorite comment is "Where was all this motivational BS when you raised me"? :-D :-D 

Handler aggression is, more often then not, a created issue. 
Push a serious dog enough and it will resist with aggression. Push a soft dog enough and it may very well resist with fear based aggression. JMHO!


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> After years with a half dozen different terrier breeds I've had some seriously "hard" dogs. They take a licking and keep on ticking.
> Then I got smart and found out that they will do anything asked if you convince them they are having a good time.
> Why pick a fight with a dog that loves to fight!!?
> My GSDs are a piece of cake to train compaired to most of the terriers I've had. A lot of that has to do with the fact that I no longer feel the need to be "hard" with my dogs.
> ...


Good post Bob. Yep. You've had terriers. Interesting comment..."Why pick a fight with a dog that loves to fight". I'll have to remember that.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

leslie cassian said:


> Do hard dogs need hard corrections?


Leslie, do kids with learning disabilities need to be talked "down" to? Some dogs may take a harder correction better than a softer dog, but the correction doesn't need to be physical. I have a hard dog, my Bouvier male. I don't have to beat him up every time he comes out. I know his drives and what makes him tick. 

Yes, we have had a few, very few, coming to Jesus meetings. Regardless of the dog, corrections must be FIRM and FAIR. The dog must know who is the leader and who follows. It has to do with a pack mindset. Find what works and what the dog will work for, then don't let the dog have it if it hasn't earned it. This could be a toy, your attention, or the chance to do bite work or herding.

Kids with learning issues don't need to be addressed as if they are stupid, you need to find out what works for their way of thinking, same with dogs. Find the trigger for the reaction. :-k


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Bob and Courtney make a good point. I was taught yank and crank in the beginnining but changed my methods. I know they work better when I had a seriously hard Mali that I rarely had to give a hard correction to. I started his training the right way and voice correction is mostly what was needed later on. We did have a couple of come to jesus meetings in the beginning though because he was quite dominant. Once the ground rules were clear the training progressed beautifully.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Howard, Howard and Bob. Great posts.


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

Me, I own Mr Sensitivity malinois... no need for hard corrections and he works so hard to get things right, I see no need to 'beat him up' when he doesn't get it right. I love his happy enthusiasm and have no desire to crush it. The obedience training I've been doing lately has been a real eye-opener for me. Almost everything my dog is doing 'wrong' is fixed by changing what I'm doing. It's all about the handler. Very humbling.

If anything, my LabX is a hard dog. Getting mad at him just means I'm angry. He gets more stubborn and stupider and shuts down. It is just as effective to say 'no, no bad dog' in a calm voice as it is to rant and rave at him. 

Mostly my question was to find out what others thought about this. It's not something I believe in.


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## Domenic Spina (Sep 13, 2008)

_*Having been a member of that same club in the past,I am sure I already know who you mean that is "heavy handed".You have to understand that the method this club uses is a method of compulsion and stress.By the way ,i am in no way bashing,just trying to explain to her.This is the way they train and its not going to change.I guess you will have to find a way to figure out what works with your dog and do that instead.When it comes to the protection ,again they like to bring the dog high,thats how they have always trained and they like that way.One thing that i will say for them is that i have yet to see a dog get chased.They are hard but they are happy to lose a little control but have the dogs high in drive as opposed to more even keel. I guess we all learn to like OR dislike alot of things in training.Hopefully you are with a good enough club that they AT LEAST try to work with you and respect what you are trying to accomplish.Sometimes that does'nt happen for whatever reason,whether they dont like your dog or the lines etc.I guess if you are lucky enough to be training with people who are open minded then you will still reach your goal WITHOUT killing your dog.Good luck with your training.*_


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

I have worked with folks who practiced* thump and thrash* in the compulsion phase. That type of training set back every dog in that club, every one! More modern methods of training are out there and those who stand back and accept beating as a training method are as wrong as those who beat.


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## Julie Ann Alvarez (Aug 4, 2007)

I don't know if my AB Lasher is hard or just hard headed... (small joke). Actually he is pretty hard as I have been told by most of the trainers I have worked with. At first,I did try to man handle him and that resulted in ugly fights that did nothing but piss me off.

Now I just put him in a PLATZ and walk away. This gives him a chance to lower his drive and me a chance to re-think what I am doing and also reminds him that I am master. I use a light ecollar correction coupled with a prong when needed- but mostly I with hold his gratification (he is very self centered), this works pretty well for him and I.

However there have been a few hard corrections and will probably be a few more. I never loose my temper, once he's been corrected he is simply starting over and being set up to be successful

I'm a firm believer that if your are going to correct make it count so he remembers it (one well place hard correction is much more useful than several weak ones). Make it clear so that he understands he must obey and then make it fun. Timing is everything.

I think Howard said it well.

Peace,


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

leslie cassian said:


> I understand that if you are going to correct a dog, then it must be meaningful, or else you’re just nagging. But if every correction for every disobedience is over the top, does that result in a dog that just works through the discomfort and becomes harder to the corrections? Ie: If you’re always shouting, the dog never hears a whisper? Or is that oversimplifying?


IMO there are two different things being presented here. First, the level of correction an individual dog requires, second the part I quoted, where every correction is "over the top". Constantly over correcting a dog can lead to a number of results, none desirable. The dog can learn to be "helpless", it can decide to fight back, it can shut down, it can become desensitized to the correction, etc. But what an overcorrection is depends on the dog being worked, which is where the "hard" comes into play. And in that case, yes IMO a hard dog (hard meaning to corrections in this case) will require a harder correction then a softer dog to get the same results, when you are using corrections.

I prefer to look at the results of a correction, not the correction itself. Does the dog start to shut down, show avoidance behaviors, "loose it", or do they say "OK, guess that's not an option, what do you want me to do next?" If it's the first, the correction was to hard regardless of how hard it was (might have just be a pop on a flat collar, might have been a lot more).


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## liz shulman (Aug 28, 2008)

What makes for a hard dog? It sounds like a "hard" dog maybe isn't so hard when he's being treated more fairly?


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## Aamer Sachedina (May 6, 2008)

Interesting thread.

I think the more driven the dog, the less correction you generally have to use. If the dog is nuts about the toy, he is generally happy to work for the toy. He generally gets the message when you deny him the toy and mark it appropriately.

My GSD was less drivey than my belgian is and would have required some correction if I would have progressed further with her. My belgian - more than enough drive so that the combination of a no reward marker - 'ah ah', combined with a bit of social pressure if she is an idiot and actually needs positive punishment (NO) is adequate. This is obedience phase we are talking about.

My general observation is that in our sport, people resort to correction by default. If they 'thought' about what was driving the dogs behaviour they would often be a lot more successful in getting the right behaviour out of the dog and rewarding appropriately for it - at the right time. It is more important to set the dog up so that they are right - and get rewarded for it in a timely fashion. I am not suggesting that correction does not have a place in obedience training. The 'NO' that I use which applies social pressure would likely have to be a yank on a prong if my dog was a hard headed male GSD.

I remember Mike Ellis eloquently making the point to me that many lines of GSDs have been genetically selected for years to deal with a certain sort of training style. 

I would venture a guess that this is why many a GSD owner tends not to do well with many a Malinois. I'm not suggesting that belgians cannot handle a correction... they sure can. When my sensitive female is in drive, I don't think she cares about how hard I yank. They are less tolerent of over-correction / unfair corrections / lack of clarity. A lot of GSDs are this way as well. We had a male that line bred 3-3 on Mink at my last club. His handler yanked on him a heck of a lot and he REALLY wanted to eat the handler. I don't blame the dog. I think he needed a different sort of training and the handler needed a different kind of dog - one that would stoically accept the crappy heavy handed corrections - like many a GSD does.

I think in many cases, the handler would get a lot more benefit if they spent as much time on figuring out when to reward as they do thinking about when to correct.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

> I think in many cases, the handler would get a lot more benefit if they spent as much time on figuring out when to reward as they do thinking about when to correct.


I just had to repeat that.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

I have always been taught that a "hard dog" is a dog that can handle stress, regarless if it's from a strong correction, force training, stress of a trial, or whatever (not just corrections). Just because a dog is a "hard dog" does not mean he is "hard headed", and does not mean the dog has to be trained any particular way, you can train the dog 100% motivationally if you want, or any way you want.

My .02:
I hope this thread does not turn into yet another thread about what style of training is better. Can we all agree that there are different styles of training, from motivational to force, and everything in between, all of which have their place, depending on the handler and dog.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Forgot to say:

How a dog reacts to the correction, (for example if unfair, overly harsh, badly timed, nagging, etc..) does not have anything to do with whether a dog is hard or soft. In fact, a soft dog might be more inclined to come up the leash!


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

Domenic Spina said:


> _*Having been a member of that same club in the past,I am sure I already know who you mean that is "heavy handed".You have to understand that the method this club uses is a method of compulsion and stress.By the way ,i am in no way bashing,just trying to explain to her.This is the way they train and its not going to change.I guess you will have to find a way to figure out what works with your dog and do that instead.When it comes to the protection ,again they like to bring the dog high,thats how they have always trained and they like that way.One thing that i will say for them is that i have yet to see a dog get chased.They are hard but they are happy to lose a little control but have the dogs high in drive as opposed to more even keel. I guess we all learn to like OR dislike alot of things in training.Hopefully you are with a good enough club that they AT LEAST try to work with you and respect what you are trying to accomplish.Sometimes that does'nt happen for whatever reason,whether they dont like your dog or the lines etc.I guess if you are lucky enough to be training with people who are open minded then you will still reach your goal WITHOUT killing your dog.Good luck with your training.*_


Hey Domininc

Yup, some people like a fight and pick their dog to fight with.

No one is forcing me to be heavy handed with my dog, or work him either in obedience or protection in a way that I'm uncomfortable with. I watch and listen and try to learn. Sometimes what I learn is what not to do.

They do title dogs, and that says something for their methods.

I put this question out because I really had no idea what to say when I heard that and it made me think. Always a dangerous thing.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

susan tuck said:


> I have always been taught that a "hard dog" is a dog that can handle stress, regarless if it's from a strong correction, force training, stress of a trial, or whatever (not just corrections). Just because a dog is a "hard dog" does not mean he is "hard headed", and does not mean the dog has to be trained any particular way, you can train the dog 100% motivationally if you want, or any way you want.
> 
> My .02:
> I hope this thread does not turn into yet another thread about what style of training is better. Can we all agree that there are different styles of training, from motivational to force, and everything in between, all of which have their place, depending on the handler and dog.


Good points Susan! In particular "hard dog doesn't mean hard headed". "Hard headed" "stubborn" means, to me, that the dog doesn't understand the command with the given set of circumstances. I prefer the word confused to hard headed. 
We use what works for us with the dog we have. If those methods work and the dog is treated fairly, then we've done a good job of training!


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## David Scholes (Jul 12, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> Good points Susan! In particular "hard dog doesn't mean hard headed". "Hard headed" "stubborn" means, to me, that the dog doesn't understand the command with the given set of circumstances. I prefer the word confused to hard headed.
> We use what works for us with the dog we have. If those methods work and the dog is treated fairly, then we've done a good job of training!


I'm getting a bit confused on the definition of "hard dog". I assume "hard dog" equals "dog with high pain threshold"?


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## Aamer Sachedina (May 6, 2008)

leslie cassian said:


> They do title dogs, and that says something for their methods.


Leslie, lots of people title dogs IN SPITE of their training methods not because of them. 

GSDs in particular are pretty forgiving dogs when it comes to heavy handed training. That is generally speaking of course as many will not be.

Keep an open mind (as it seems you have been). Don't accept "this is how it is done because this is how we do it" if it does not seem right to you. 

Keep a particular eye out for how many dogs a club washes out for reasons other than "the dog just did not have an adequate amount of drive". Training technique needs to adapt based on the handler and dog at hand. That does not say that every dog has it in them to be titled - many do not. However, incorrect training for a particular dog can definitely set that dog/handler back.

In our sport, it is not unusual to encounter a lot resistance to change old ways. You don't have to change clubs if you encounter this so long as you can work with the old timers and make things work to find the right techniques for your dog.


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## Aamer Sachedina (May 6, 2008)

susan tuck said:


> I have always been taught that a "hard dog" is a dog that can handle stress, regarless if it's from a strong correction, force training, stress of a trial, or whatever (not just corrections).


I agree with the crux of your post. 

However, characteristics such as pain threshold, mental ability to survive force training and other forms of stress - like the stress of a trial / new field, new helper are all orthogonal things in my opinion. Just because a dog has a high pain threshold, it does not mean that this will relate in any way to dealing with a new helper on a strange field. How a dog (or human for that matter) handles mental and physical stress can be completely different IMHO.


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## David Scholes (Jul 12, 2008)

Aamer Sachedina said:


> I agree with the crux of your post.
> 
> However, characteristics such as pain threshold, mental ability to survive force training and other forms of stress - like the stress of a trial / new field, new helper are all orthogonal things in my opinion. Just because a dog has a high pain threshold, it does not mean that this will relate in any way to dealing with a new helper on a strange field. How a dog (or human for that matter) handles mental and physical stress can be completely different IMHO.


I'll go with your explanation. I like it.


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## Aamer Sachedina (May 6, 2008)

leslie cassian said:


> I understand that if you are going to correct a dog, then it must be meaningful, or else you’re just nagging. But if every correction for every disobedience is over the top, does that result in a dog that just works through the discomfort and becomes harder to the corrections? Ie: If you’re always shouting, the dog never hears a whisper? Or is that oversimplifying?


Leslie, while I re-read your post, I thought of something important that really needs to be said. When you are correcting to sharpen things up, the key ingredient of the correction is SUPRISE... not PAIN. That is my 0.02 $ anyway. 

The dog should react with "Where the heck did that come from" not "holy crap, if I don't do what she asks, I might die". 

Effective correction is strong enough to elicit the surprise, but not so strong as to throw the dog into avoidance. These thresholds are obviously different for every dog.

Your point is not simplistic. Repeated correction / or any sort of stimulus for that matter, will raise the dog's threshold at which it responds to it. This is a great reason not to use correction more frequently than you really need.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

David Scholes said:


> I'm getting a bit confused on the definition of "hard dog". I assume "hard dog" equals "dog with high pain threshold"?



Dog who recovers fast from a correction.


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## Pia Porko (Oct 8, 2008)

David Scholes said:


> I'm getting a bit confused on the definition of "hard dog". I assume "hard dog" equals "dog with high pain threshold"?


I've always been told hard vs soft has to do with the extent to which dog remembers "bad" experienses. 

I've simplified it to my self using the following example: 

When defining "hard dog" and "soft dog" imagine a situation where a garbage can tumbles down on the street while the dog is passing by. A soft dog will remember the situation later on (this doesn't mean a soft dog would be terrified of carbage cans for the rest of his life :mrgreen: ), where as a hard dog will go and piss on the carbage can the next time he passes it as if nothing ever happened in the first place.

P


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Alyssa Myracle said:


> Some people correct their dog to the extent that the dog stops thinking, it just waits to get yanked where it's supposed to go. If you take the leash and corrections away, the dog *doesn't* know how to perform very simple commands, because it has stopped thinking or learning. It just waits to be corrected into position.


I like your post.

There are some dogs that don't just stop thinking but "think" for themselves and learn how to avoid correction (by staying in the sleeve, for instance). When this happens, it's very often over for the team.

High pain thresholds don't necessarily mean "hard dogs" in training. 

There is also the fact that dogs in high drive can take far more pain.

One GSD that was noted as particularly hard was Pablo Körbelbach. His handler was no greenling either.

How many "hard dogs" have we got? Some have said in this thread that with more intelligence on the part of the handler (or words to that effect) the dog wouldn't be so "hard". I agree.

I know a handler that made it to the podest at WUSV and has been going through young dogs since as he hasn't found the "right" one. Maybe with a different attitude, he could become the "right" handler for a good dog.

Oh well! I'm just going to "chat up" my doggy and ask him if he wants to go walkie-walkies with me.....


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Bob Scott said:


> "hard dog doesn't mean hard headed". "Hard headed" "stubborn" means, to me, that the dog doesn't understand the command with the given set of circumstances.


Bob I had a guy who came out last night so I could work with his Aussie on sheep. it is a cattle dog. I then worked both of my BCs, Split did well and Jess gave me the finger on a down command. She understands but wants to work sheep on HER level...When the "down" was blown off, I helped her down...Much more willing to listen and be allowed to herd. Agree that some dogs don't understand what is expected, others are pigheaded! #-o


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## Dan Long (Jan 10, 2008)

Howard Gaines III said:


> Yes, we have had a few, very few, coming to Jesus meetings.


One of our club members was very surprised when I said I'd never had a "come to Jesus meeting" with my dog. I really don't see a need for it. Has he been tuned up with a prong correction? Yes, very rarely, and far less in the last year as I get better as a trainer. But I've never had to use any dominating techniques that a "come to Jesus meeting" entails. If he doesn't want to do as asked, he'll get put up and he won't get the reward. He'll be taken right off the field and put in the truck, and he can stay there for the rest of the training day. Like when Rock decided you weren't giving him is reward fast enough when doing obedience and he decided to take a nip at your hand out of frustration, at that point, I would have put him up for the day. No more training, no rewards. If you kept him out on the field that day after that incident, he won, because he weathered the correction and still got what he wanted, a bite on the decoy. 

I think that "come to Jesus meetings", helicoptering, alpha rolls and things like that are outdated and are contrary to the positive training that we like to promote. We can't say "I train with positive methods" one minute, and the next minute be pinning our dog to the ground because he didn't do what we wanted.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Alyssa said
"Some people correct their dog to the extent that the dog stops thinking, it just waits to get yanked where it's supposed to go. If you take the leash and corrections away, the dog *doesn't* know how to perform very simple commands, because it has stopped thinking or learning. It just waits to be corrected into position."

Perfect example
How many of us have seen a titled, "well trained" dog freeze up on the retrieve over the hurdle simply because it can't immediately find the dumbell, or maybe it clipped the jump hard? The dog (often) hasn't been allowed to think for itself. It runs into a simple problem and stands there like a deer in the headlights. 
Dogs EF up! They're dogs! Plain and simple, but I'd rather see a dog EF up trying to figure out the problem then do so because they'er afraind to make the next mistake. 
The dog has gone through it's "training" being controlled and not being allowed to learn. 
Again, not a knock on GOOD correction training!


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Funny, I have seen that reaction in dogs that were trained using motivational methods only, but were trained too young and too much. They never learned to think or act for themselves, always waiting for instruction. Turns dogs into robots. One reason I like to let puppies be puppies.

I have also seen that reaction in dogs that were abused by over-the-top corrections or unfair corrections.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

susan tuck said:


> Funny, I have seen that reaction in dogs that were trained using motivational methods only, but were trained too young and too much. They never learned to think or act for themselves, always waiting for instruction. Turns dogs into robots. One reason I like to let puppies be puppies.
> 
> I have also seen that reaction in dogs that were abused by over-the-top corrections or unfair corrections.


 
Motivational training doesn't have to take away puppy hood but yes, I've seen dogs that were to dependant on the handler. I think that's as much about the dog as it is the training. 
Like my dog Thunder. I was asked in another post if my method of training made him to dependant on me for doing SAR work. His drive was what kept him "on target". His training just made him more biddable, not necessarily more dependant.
We have a nice WG showline dog at club that will do anything asked but his ability to think things out is somewhat lacking. OCD for his handler but a nice dog still.


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Dan Long said:


> I think that "come to Jesus meetings", helicoptering, alpha rolls and things like that are outdated and are contrary to the positive training that we like to promote. We can't say "I train with positive methods" one minute, and the next minute be pinning our dog to the ground because he didn't do what we wanted.



Hi Dan,

I agree with you for the most part. I only had to do it twice with the one dog, never with any others. Our "meeting" was called to order because of dominance issues that occurred nowhere near the training field or during any sort of training. The dog was fairly new to me and had I not took care of business I had genuine concern for my other animals and family members.

I can tell you that I didn't helicopter him or do an alpha roll. I did make it very clear to him that I wouldn't stand for his pushing me, or any family/pack member around. And I did it without causing him any pain. There's more than one way to bring a strong and clear message.

Howard


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## Colin Chin (Sep 20, 2006)

Howard Knauf said:


> Hi Dan,
> 
> I agree with you for the most part. I only had to do it twice with the one dog, never with any others. Our "meeting" was called to order because of dominance issues that occurred nowhere near the training field or during any sort of training. The dog was fairly new to me and had I not took care of business I had genuine concern for my other animals and family members.
> 
> ...


Hello Howard,
Would like to ask how did you send your message across to the alpha dog ? Cheers.


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

Gillian Schuler said:


> I know a handler that made it to the podest at WUSV and has been going through young dogs since as he hasn't found the "right" one. Maybe with a different attitude, he could become the "right" handler for a good dog.


My perception is this happens alot. Inflexibility on the handler's part, IMO, and a very good reason for not aiming to breed the "quintessential sport dog".


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## Andy Larrimore (Jan 8, 2008)

There is a time and place for a hard correction. The correction must match the behavior. If the correction is to hard for the dog then he will simply shut down on you, but if the correction is to soft he will simply do as he pleases then laugh at you. Everyone knows there own dog. Not every dog can take a hard correction and bounce back. No dog should be over corrected but the dog should respect the handlers position. 
I like to use positive motivation with my dog for training. I enjoy the work and the dog enjoys doing the work. I have had to correct him hard a couple times over the last 4 years but it was his behavior that dictated the correction. After he complied and honored the correction the motivational training resumed. It's not that he simply wethered the correction and was allowed to do as he wanted. He acknowledged the correction and my position, then on my terms the training continued. 
To sum it up, not every dog can handle a hard correction. The correction must match the behavior and the temprament of the dog in order to gain the most out of training.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Not everyone can give a strong dog a strong correction. Being afraid of your dog is a great way of getting hurt. In my case, when my dog bit the top of my left hand, it was a challenge to not getting the reward of a decoy bite. Any time a dog raises the level of challenge to the showing of teeth or biting the handler, "time out" is a joke. It must be addressed quickly and firmly. The handler ALWAYS WINS!

I use alpha rolls, I use helicopter spins, and I stay in the dominante position. My dog isn't my equal or my best friend...it is an animal, first and last. Being in a leadership position requires others to follow the game plan and not branch out on their own desires. My female Border Collie wanted to work sheep on her terms, wrong! I'm the shepherd, I own the sheep, and her pleasure is to be able to herd them.

When a command is not done, I step into the dog and readdress the command. If it is still blown off, the dog is put away with a strong verbal correction and I use another to get the job done. Some folks might find it hard to correct a hard dog; fear of being eaten by your own dog, fear of being too hard, are always a reasons to use "time out" when a strong physical adjustment should have been in order. 

Using reasonable commands and responses are always the best first choice approach! Postive works best...=D>


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

Yes, you need to know your dog. Mine can and will take any amount of physical correction without shutting down but if I get flustered and bitch him out, he will start to shut down, typical male. LOL Can't take critisism. For me a simple "uh uh" or "no" is better than a strong crank. He's a pretty hard dog in Sue's terms of the word. I guess I can call him somewhat handler sensetive since I am the only thing that can shut him down a bit. New environments, decoys, stressers don't and have never gotten a reaction from him even from puppyhood, that's why I think he's solid as a rock. If you can take a 3-4 month old pup walking anywhere and not see stress, never trepidation, even walking next to a moving train, traffic, small enclosed spaces, roofs 2 stories up, as an adult a new decoy or field is nothing.

There was a time in our training before he was willing to please...about 6-9 months, food didn't work, corrections barely caught his attention. I thought I was in big trouble with this dog, then all of a sudden he got that we where a team, he quite giving me the bird and became super easy to train. Did I get lucky or did I just find the best way to deal with this dog? Actually I just became the tug/ball GOD. I let go of most of the compulsion I had grown up using on my dogs and started bribing him with fun. :idea: I just realized I need to change tactics and deal with men in this way too. Wow, I knew training dogs and kids was very similar...now the man.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Michelle Kehoe said:


> Yes, you need to know your dog. Mine can and will take any amount of physical correction without shutting down but if I get flustered and bitch him out, he will start to shut down, typical male. LOL ...up using on my dogs and started bribing him with fun. :idea: I just realized I need to change tactics and deal with men in this way too. Wow, I knew training dogs and kids was very similar...now the man.


Michele I LOVE it took the words out of my mouth...:mrgreen: =D> And with kids you can tell them about Santa, with dogs, you have to say "cat chasing!" Thanks I enjoy your post!


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Colin Chin said:


> Hello Howard,
> Would like to ask how did you send your message across to the alpha dog ? Cheers.


 He began a nasty habit of biting me on the ass whenever I turned to leave the kennel. That alone would not have been too bad but there were other dominance traits he was exhibiting as well so I knew I had to take care of it.

After the second ass chewing I turned right around and grabbed him by the face, lifted him off the ground and shoved him into the kennel roof and side. I stared him down while all the while casually telling him how I would break his freakin neck and skin him out if he didn't knock his sh** off. 

The whole time he's trying to eat me up but he eventually gets the message that I'm not kidding and he submits. I let him down right away and didn't have another problem with him until the real bite work got going strong. At one point he is full of himself cause he's kicking decoys' ass and he tries me again but gets the same response.

I never had to hammer this dog because of the way he was trained from the start. He knew I was fair and took my airborn tongue lashing seriously. Thats all it took. Not for the feint of heart cause it can be dangerous. Had I a leash on him the first time I would have hung him a la Kohler. Same result.

Howard


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## Dan Long (Jan 10, 2008)

Howard Gaines III said:


> Not everyone can give a strong dog a strong correction. Being afraid of your dog is a great way of getting hurt. In my case, when my dog bit the top of my left hand, it was a challenge to not getting the reward of a decoy bite. Any time a dog raises the level of challenge to the showing of teeth or biting the handler, "time out" is a joke. It must be addressed quickly and firmly. The handler ALWAYS WINS!
> 
> 
> I use alpha rolls, I use helicopter spins, and I stay in the dominante position. My dog isn't my equal or my best friend...it is an animal, first and last. Being in a leadership position requires others to follow the game plan and not branch out on their own desires. My female Border Collie wanted to work sheep on her terms, wrong! I'm the shepherd, I own the sheep, and her pleasure is to be able to herd them.
> ...


I hope you are not saying that I'm scared of a strong dog or not capable of training one! Hardly the case. Maybe my dog isn't as strong as Rock, but if I had a dog like Rock from the time he was a pup, I'd be able to handle him the same way I handle Gunnar. Of course when a dog challenges the handler in the way Rock did you, you have to win, but there are other ways to win without your dog seeing Jesus. What does the dog want most of all? To be on the field training with his handler, biting decoys, and having fun. He doesn't comply, he doesn't get what he wants. Does doing that take longer than a helicopter or alpha roll or choking your dog out? Yes. Is it frustrating? Yes. But, the end result will be better. It's like teaching a dog to heel with treats or a toy vs teaching him to heel by putting a prong on him and making him go where you want. The prong might work faster but the dog who has trained for a reward is going to want to do it a lot more. 

Putting your dog up isn't time out like you do to a 6 year old when he won't eat his veggies. It's "you don't want to follow the rules, then we're done". It's not a sign of weakness or a cop out or fear of your dog if you correct him hard. It's taking away what he wants. Remove him from the situation, no rewards, no attention, nothing. The spectators can wait til next time to see him work. The only one who benefits from come to Jesus corrections is the handler, because it's the easy way to treat the problem. Challenge me? I'll beat you down. That's easy. Instead we should be looking at why the dog did what he did. What did we as a handler do that caused the dogs reaction. How can we prevent it from happening again. Do we step back in our training, and revisit the task with less distraction? Maybe what happened with Rock that day was too much stress for him and that's why he acted out negatively. You wanted him to do something but maybe were not clear on what it was, he thought he was doing what you wanted and didn't understand why he wasn't getting his reward, and he got frustrated. 

The handler always winning when a dog challenges you doesn't have to mean alpha rolls, helicoptering, or anything like that. Being a leader and being the dominant one doesn't mean using those tactics either. Anyone can push a dog around and get him to do what you want. Finding what makes him tick and makes him WANT to work for you is much harder but far more rewarding. We constantly refer to our dogs as our "K9 Partner". To me a partnership is a 2 way street. I treat him with respect, he responds with a desire to work for me.


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

I hear what your saying Dan. I once was about to blow my top out on the field durring OB, after a few cranks with no better result I stopped, went back to the car and crated my dog. The TD said you just let him win and my remark back was no I didn't, he just lost out on us time and we will go last in bitwork tonight, if at all". This works for me and my dog, letting me cool down and my dog brood in his rejection. He lives to work so being harshly put up hurts his fragile ego I think. He comes back out with a better attitude it seems anyway.


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## Colin Chin (Sep 20, 2006)

Howard Gaines, 
[Any time a dog raises the level of challenge to the showing of teeth or biting the handler, "time out" is a joke. It must be addressed quickly and firmly. The handler ALWAYS WINS. Not everyone can give a strong dog a strong correction. Being afraid of your dog is a great way of getting hurt. In my case, when my dog bit the top of my left hand, it was a challenge to not getting the reward of a decoy bite.

How do you deal with dogs that show above disposition ? What's helicopter spin on a dog ? Cheers.


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## Colin Chin (Sep 20, 2006)

Howard Knauf said:


> He began a nasty habit of biting me on the ass whenever I turned to leave the kennel. That alone would not have been too bad but there were other dominance traits he was exhibiting as well so I knew I had to take care of it.
> 
> After the second ass chewing I turned right around and grabbed him by the face, lifted him off the ground and shoved him into the kennel roof and side. I stared him down while all the while casually telling him how I would break his freakin neck and skin him out if he didn't knock his sh** off.
> 
> ...


Howard,
Thanks for the infor shared. But, I guess one must have the gut to do like you did to him ? Did he try to bite you off at that point in time of your correction ? Cheers.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Dan you must have missed my point. Not everyone can handle a tough, hard or headstrong dog. So what's wrong with your dog? If you are happy with him that's all that matters. Gunnar fits in your family and for what you want. Be happy! I'm not matching Rock with any other dog, he is what he is!

My point in the correction statement is that not everyone can do a hard correction, *Howard K's example is what I mean.* *This is a perfect point*, some would NEVER go toe to toe with a dog they might get eaten by... If I had been bit in the rear time out, social talks, and milk and cookies would not be the technique I would use. 

You can't beat up something and have a good working bond, you can't avoid corrections either. To avoid a challenge to the handler only in IMO makes the dog bolder in its ability to run over the handler. You have seen the way I train. If a firm correction is needed I do it, if a spin around the block for biting the handler is needed I'll do it, and I give out lots of praise, more than many and very vocal. Praise builds, beat downs kill drive. Ya'll heard it here!


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## Butch Cappel (Aug 12, 2007)

In the Guard dog business we say that the number and intensity of corrections on the dogs end of the leash, are an opposite and accurate reflection of the experience and understanding on the human side of the leash, example, more hard corrections on the dog end, less experience on the human end.

As to what constitutes "Hard" corrections this was usually judged from the number of stitches needed by the inexperienced handler.

Not saying it's right, just a different perspective for most people.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Michelle Kehoe said:


> Yes, you need to know your dog. Mine can and will take any amount of physical correction without shutting down but if I get flustered and bitch him out, he will start to shut down, typical male. LOL Can't take critisism. For me a simple "uh uh" or "no" is better than a strong crank. He's a pretty hard dog in Sue's terms of the word. I guess I can call him somewhat handler sensetive since I am the only thing that can shut him down a bit. New environments, decoys, stressers don't and have never gotten a reaction from him even from puppyhood, that's why I think he's solid as a rock. If you can take a 3-4 month old pup walking anywhere and not see stress, never trepidation, even walking next to a moving train, traffic, small enclosed spaces, roofs 2 stories up, as an adult a new decoy or field is nothing.


Exactly right. A perfect example of a hard dog who is handler sensitive. In my eyes, the ideal dog.


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Colin Chin said:


> Howard,
> Thanks for the infor shared. But, I guess one must have the gut to do like you did to him ? Did he try to bite you off at that point in time of your correction ? Cheers.


 At the time it felt like stupidity. Something had to be done right at that moment and thats all I could do without equipment on him. Once committed I had to follow through. He tried like hell to get me but I had him just right so I was left unscarred. The scary part is not so much the act itself...it's when you let him down and no longer have control. You never know what a hard, dominant dog might do. He may very well had another go at me. Had he done that I would have been tore up for sure. 

Howard


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## Dwight Blevins (Oct 23, 2008)

....it all depends i believe. i mean every one has been saying it pretty much but every dog is different and you CANNOT truly compare on dog to another. What i have found is that if you look at a handler and their dog you can tell who is the Alpha dog. 

Sometimes the handler can establish the "Alpha dog" role early in the dogs life and not be challenged. but other dogs will "snap" at any chance they get to take control of the pack.

I believe when that happens the handler should act according to the incident and the attitude of the dog. If the dog does something very serious that simply cannot stand cuz it could cause pain to someone or injury to something at the moment or later on if the situation worsens then yes a COME to JESUS meeting may be the way to go.... 

but if you are out on the training field and your dog isnt healing maybe a jerk on the lead and some tense words but i wouldnt i dont think put the dog down for his stubborness. 

THEN IDK its all about the dog do what you have to do to be the Alpha Dog so to speak


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Dwight I fully agree that minor training issues shouldn't be the foundation for beating up the dog. Dogs like people can have an off day. Today, my Bouvier male and I did bath time. He didn't enjoy the warm hose treatment or the combing out of matted fur. But in and through it all, he did find time to give me a "kiss" and not fight the Saturday morning grooming. Rock understood the event and was willing to get through the smell of orange blossom shampoo and cheap French smelling conditioners!  

Hard and soft dogs understand a firm or an unjust correction. Most are willing, I think, to take the correction as long as it doesn't take them! I teach for a living, if every kid in shop class got the same hard treatment, I wouldn't have a class to teach. Most understand that rules are rules and freedom is cool as long as you don't get stupid!


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Dwight Blevins said:


> .
> 
> Sometimes the handler can establish the "Alpha dog" role early in the dogs life and not be challenged. but other dogs will "snap" at any chance they get to take control of the pack.


 Don't know who said it but....."Any authority you leave lying around...your dog will surely pick up". So true.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

QUOTE Sometimes the handler can establish the "Alpha dog" role early in the dogs life and not be challenged. but other dogs will "snap" at any chance they get to take control of the pack UNQUOTE

For me, there are some issues that weren't attended to here when the dog was a pup..

OK, I've had dogs trying to find out how far they can go but they've never gone against me. If you have the pup from 7-8 weeks old, it shouldn't challenge you in the hierarchy.


_ 
_


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

My dog hasn't tried me since he turned about 8 months. Been smooth sailing since but I try hard to keep my status, not letting him on the couch, bed or do whatever he wants. I keep him on a strict schedule and slightly underfed.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I can understand a challenge from a dog that is brought in as an older dog. Leadership had never been established between you and the dog. Also the dog may have simply been "controlled" rather then be trained with leadership. 
I can't fathom a dog I've raised from a pup ever giving me a serious challenge. 

"Does not comput Will Robinson"!


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Bob Scott said:


> I can understand a challenge from a dog that is brought in as an older dog. Leadership had never been established between you and the dog. Also the dog may have simply been "controlled" rather then be trained with leadership.
> *I can't fathom a dog I've raised from a pup ever giving me a serious challenge.*
> 
> "Does not comput Will Robinson"!


Bob, I 100% agree with you on the pup raised issue, the serious challenge can only happen if the owner is a real termite head! None of mine have given me something, anything, that couldn't be fixed. All are squirrels on their own levels. My male is a typical high strung male, like a cocky 15 year old. Sometimes you have to put it on them real intense for them to understand. :evil:


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## Lisa Maze (Mar 30, 2007)

Seems to me like a perception issue, just about everyone on the list who responded feels like their working dog has exhibited behavior that indicated it was staging a coup...plannning to take over the pack.

When an eight week old pup growls and postures when I try to take his toy or snarls and tries to bite me in the face when I give him a hug I don't give him a shake and think the little bastard is dominant. I smile and am grateful I got what I was looking for in a pup...one with his own opinion who is willing to fight for what he wants and who knows what makes him uncomfortable and is not afraid to tell me.

So I play possesion games to teach him that I don't really want to take his toy from him and that it is fun when I pretend and I keep on kissing him and smooching him until he decides he likes it too. 

If I get the kind of pup I want he is going to show lots of behaviors that could be mistaken for "dominace" if that is what you were looking for. I do not view a dog acting like a dog as a behavior that needs to be dealt with punitively. My goal is to keep the attitude behind the behavior and lessen or change the triggers.

Looks like the working dog world is full of little dominant bastards that are planning to take over their households. I guess I should just count my blessings I have never had a pup like that:razz: 

Lisa


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## Lisa Maze (Mar 30, 2007)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9g-T-jnbl5M

Just threw together a bunch of short clips of one of my grandpuppies to see what you think about him. I love him and would take him home in a heartbeat if I could but am happy to be able to be his babysitter when I can. I have an opinion about him but would love to hear what you guys think relative to this thread.

Lisa


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## Anna Kasho (Jan 16, 2008)

Lisa Maze said:


> When an eight week old pup growls and postures when I try to take his toy or snarls and tries to bite me in the face when I give him a hug I don't give him a shake and think the little bastard is dominant. I smile and am grateful I got what I was looking for in a pup...one with his own opinion who is willing to fight for what he wants and who knows what makes him uncomfortable and is not afraid to tell me.


This is interesting... Cyko was a pup like you describe. Confident, pushy, posessive, with attitude. But he is not a dominant dog. When he got to be 7-8 months old, those behaviors went away on their own, and almost overnight he started giving me submissive behaviors. I never had to do anything to adress those issues directly... But he's my puppy, it was never a question of who makes the rules. Although, by virtue of being my chosen "beta" dog, he gets to rank over the rest of them.

So say you get an adult dog that growls and postures and tries to bite you in the face like that - Would you call him a dominant dog? What would you do?


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Lisa Maze said:


> Seems to me like a perception issue, just about everyone on the list who responded feels like their working dog has exhibited behavior that indicated it was staging a coup...plannning to take over the pack.
> 
> When an eight week old pup growls and postures when I try to take his toy or snarls and tries to bite me in the face when I give him a hug I don't give him a shake and think the little bastard is dominant. I smile and am grateful I got what I was looking for in a pup...one with his own opinion who is willing to fight for what he wants and who knows what makes him uncomfortable and is not afraid to tell me.
> 
> ...


 
100% agreement!
The only two dogs that I've had that some would consider "dominant" were just ****** in the head! 
Well.............I don't do much kissing on them though.....just hugs and heavy petting! :grin:
Had a number of them that sure wouldn't put up with most other people huggin on them though. :grin:


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Anna Kasho said:


> This is interesting... Cyko was a pup like you describe. Confident, pushy, posessive, with attitude. But he is not a dominant dog. When he got to be 7-8 months old, those behaviors went away on their own, and almost overnight he started giving me submissive behaviors. I never had to do anything to adress those issues directly... But he's my puppy, it was never a question of who makes the rules. Although, by virtue of being my chosen "beta" dog, he gets to rank over the rest of them.
> 
> So say you get an adult dog that growls and postures and tries to bite you in the face like that - Would you call him a dominant dog? What would you do?


Anna, it is totally dependant on why the dog growls, postures etc.
It could be the dog is stressed from previous training. It could be that the dog is just weak nerved and views everyone as a threat. 
I think any dog brought in as an adult needs time to get used to the new handler. Bonding if you want to call it that. Control can be as simple as posturing on your part.
Even if it truely is a dominant dog it doesn't have to mean a war with the handler. 
I've said it in the past. You don't pick a fight with a dog that loves to fight. If it does come to that, you win! No ifs ands or buts. 
A dominant dog doesn't mean it's an agressive dog. Why not just out think the dog?! JMHO!


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

"Seems to me like a perception issue"~Lisa

I think that's what makes it so difficult to fully comprehend what dominance really is. It's not simply a matter of being relative to the dog handler relationship, but also between dog and family, dog and other dogs, dog and the rewards of prior experience, handler perception and handler prior experience....... I could go further with that, but you get the idea.

This diagram was used in a study of dominance and aggression [of fish], but it puts into perspective the numerous factors involved.










Source: http://www.liebertonline.com/doi/pdfplus/10.1089/zeb.2006.3.287
There are interesting remarks in Table 1: "Causes of Variation in Contest Success", pages 4-6. But for the most part, dominant and aggressive behavior revolves around contest behavior for food, territory, and mates. I don't believe hard dogs need hard corrections necessarily, if at all. Dogs that are hard to physical correction, can be sensitive to light verbal correction, for example. A hard dog may generally be more aloof or independent of the handler, but there's exceptions to that as well, being very willing, biddable, or responsive to the handler, despite often expressed dominance to other dogs or aggression to challenges.

I'm not adverse to physical correction, but when employed, it's punctual and it's marked with a vocal tonality, that reminds "business" so that at a later time the voice alone accomplishes what the original correction intended. My Tiekerhook male responds superbly to my voice, though he's fairly insensitive to any physical pain. I've applied very few physical corrections, ever at all, and I can really appreciate that. My most dominant Policia stud is also very promptly willing to my voice, and I have never needed more than a vocal correction.

"A dominant dog doesn't mean it's an agressive dog."~Bob

I agree, these are more complex behaviors than people give credit for.

dominance - subordinance
aggression - avoidance


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

"Looks like the working dog world is full of little dominant bastards that are planning to take over"

Lisa they are all future Wal-Mart managers in the making...small business, watch out! :---)


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Going back to the original post, most of the time if I am seeing "hard" corrections, it is usually due to shitty foundation training.

I really like it when you see a dog with good foundation work in OB come out to start OB with the decoy on the field, as the dog doesn't listen, and nothing happens and then the dog "gets" it, and does what it is asked and gets a bite.

Many "hard" dogs are made. When you get one that is truely hard, it still goes back to getting that good foundation in first, and not correcting because "he knows it"

I believe in corrections, but somehow correction is always attached to some weird idea that you have to swing a dog into moving traffic.:grin: 

All it is supposed to do is interrupt the behavior long enough so your dumb ass can try to get him to do the correct thing.:grin: =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D>


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## Linda Guidry (Jul 7, 2008)

Looks like the working dog world is full of little dominant bastards that are planning to take over their households. I guess I should just count my blessings I have never had a pup like that:razz: 

Lisa[/quote]

What is your take on your puppy video?

Thanks,
Linda


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## Lisa Maze (Mar 30, 2007)

Since even in three days I have observed a lot more behavior than the video can show my view may be a bit skewed. He is a nice normal puppy who is quite "self possesed", lacks a "sense" of humour and is quick to fight. Dominant? Maybe but you cannot push against what is not there so I hope that skillful raising will keep the good traits that make us put him in that category and minimize the bad ones.

First off I consider the pup's behavior normal for a canid and ideal for a working dog. When I kiss and hug a puppy I do not expect him to be thinking the primate thoughts I am thinking...I am showing love and affection for this baby thing in a very human way wrapping my arms around him protectively and "cooing" at him...I expect him to perceive it in an appropriate way for caninds...something is leaning over the top of me, posturing and "growling." No doubt my mouth moving closer for a smooch is viewed quite differently by the little pup (yikes! She is going to bite me!)

All pup's "react" to this...some just react with affiliation/appeasement (wiggly,licking etc.) some with avoidance (stiff and frozen) and others with aggression (get off me you crazy woman-you aren't going to eat me!). Despite the different reactions by the pup I feel my reaction should be the same in each case. Help the pup learn that this move from humans is not aggressive and change his perception about it. So I do a combo of kissing/snuggling him all the time and pair it with a variety of things he likes food, scratches and freedom (as in if you endure this smooching I will stop and set you down.)

Despite his reaction he is a very "affiliative" puppy. In just the three days I have been babysitting him his thresholds for these behaviors with me have doubled or tripled. Still, if Tim or someone knew scoops him up he explains to them he "does not kiss on the first date". He knows his grandma and our relationship blocks much of this behavior.

Trust me, I own his daddy. I got him because others chose to fight him. He came with six bites on his record and a habit of looking over his shoulder to see who was coming to kick his butt this time. Dominant? Yes, I suppose to others he could be labeled such but to me he is a self-possesed, confident dog who will resist and fight if pushed. Anyone who sees him with me will also agree he is very responsive to the handler and anything but dominant to me (he is much, much stronger than me so I do not try to fight). Occasionally things give him flashbacks and he will start to push me and if I can control my knee jerk reaction to fight back the moment passes. Many times observers have asked if I had not just let him win. My answer is "No, because he does not want to win." 

Lisa


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

With all the harder that dog bites, I am amazed that anyone noticed they were bit. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Jeff said:_ Going back to the original post, most of the time if I am seeing "hard" corrections, it is usually due to shitty foundation training.
_
I thinks that's true and admit I've been guilty of it once or twice, especially in bitework.

I think there are more soft handlers around than dominant dogs. My dog's brother was described as dominant at 10 months by his owner's trainer. It's all selfpraise-diarrhoea. The tougher the dog, the tougher the handler:---) 

I honestly think sometimes it's a case of where the handler is lacking, and he won't admit it.

I've seen many a dog change hands because too dominant - the domina became the slave after. 

Maybe I'm filling my mouth too full and maybe I'll get one one day that shows me what a little toad I am which will serve me right#-o


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## Lisa Maze (Mar 30, 2007)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> With all the harder that dog bites, I am amazed that anyone noticed they were bit. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


Keep 'em coming Jeff. If Villier and I have decent scores in our first trial together I will have a few comebacks for you. Don't want to jinx myself.

Lisa


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Ahh the great Lisa Maze...I cannot shake you women!!!!


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I hope you do well, as I hope all do well, just don't get Federico as a decoy.:razz: 

I saw couple of his pups from the w litter, and they seemed to be titleable.

Buko was a machine in the bitework this weekend, however the trial was 5 times easier. Too bad I trialed last weekend, as the three was easier than my 2. AAAAAAhhhhh hindsight is always 20/20


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