# How much do bloodlines really matter for a breeding?



## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

Asking because it seems like there is a range in opinions from GSD people that only breed on bloodlines/pedigree, to KNPV dogs that might be a significant % pit bull (and are those knpv breedings only about creating awesome dogs, or is there something more scientific about adding in pit bull/etc)?

What got me thinking was someone mentioning they had a nice female dutchie, different bloodline, and although Ive never given a thought to breeding, wondered if it would be a good litter as long as both dogs work well and are healthy.

I also train with, and potentially have access to, about 12 working police KNPV dogs, and from my limited experience, they all seem good, some are really impressive. I wondered if I ever had a nice female down the line if that would be a number of good potential breedings (all hypothetical, I dont need to be told not to breed) that could be done.

There was a thread about the dutchie pd k9 'Chucky' that is part pit bull, and I wondered how often that's done and exactly what they are looking for (Tiesto lines I think).


And, are knpv people the only ones so open minded, would people with german/belgian/french line mal's be appalled by the idea?

Random thoughts/questions, but any iinput is appreciated


----------



## David Feliciano (Oct 31, 2008)

Knowledge of bloodlines is essential to a good breeding program IMO

What you do with that knowledge is a whole different story. If you want to outcross a pit to a dutchie its still important to know about their bloodlines.

The example you gave of breeding your male with a friend's female dutchie from different lines is a good example. If you knew both lines well, you'd have a much better idea of what the combo might produce.


----------



## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

but I guess the main question would be, if both dogs are awesome, would the bloodlines ever suggest the breeding not be done? And I wonder what bloodlines (knpv for example) would make any difference if the dutch dog was crossed to a GSD or pit


----------



## David Feliciano (Oct 31, 2008)

Matt Grosch said:


> but I guess the main question would be, if both dogs are awesome, would the bloodlines ever suggest the breeding not be done?


Yes very often in fact. Malinois from french, belgian, german, dutch, bloodlines are all very different.

Breeding two "awesome" dogs together is not smart unless you understand what it is that makes them awesome.


----------



## David Feliciano (Oct 31, 2008)

I also think people tend to exaggerate the way the dutch outcross. Dutch malinois tend to show some consitency and are distinctly different than german dogs for example. If the dutch really outcrossed with reckless abandon and only bred good dog to good dog without thinking about bloodlines you would see much more variation in temperament IMHO


----------



## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

David, when I read such black and white advice I like to know what it is based on. Are you speaking from actual breeding experience?


----------



## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

David Feliciano said:


> Yes very often in fact. Malinois from french, belgian, german, dutch, bloodlines are all very different.
> 
> Breeding two "awesome" dogs together is not smart unless you understand what it is that makes them awesome.


And I will say there is even more truth to your statement with the German Shepherd dog there should be more balance rather than extremes There seems to be lots of dog breeding going on with n00bs that have never tested there dogs or have a clue thinking there should be puppies.
Sorry Ill go with the breeders that have multiple generations of breeding success who have seen, worked and studied the old dogs in there pedigrees and have watched what they produce and how they did it.


----------



## Gerald Guay (Jun 15, 2010)

Mike Scheiber said:


> Sorry Ill go with the breeders that have multiple generations of breeding success who have seen, worked and studied the old dogs in there pedigrees and have watched what they produce and how they did it.


I agree with Mike. Genotype over phenotype. Otherwise it's a crapshot.

GG


----------



## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Gerald Guay said:


> Mike Scheiber said:
> 
> 
> I agree with Mike. Genotype over phenotype. Otherwise it's a crapshot.
> ...


My current dog is a out cross :lol: I had to trust


----------



## David Feliciano (Oct 31, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> David, when I read such black and white advice I like to know what it is based on. Are you speaking from actual breeding experience?


Show me where I offered any advice on this thread


----------



## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Don Turnipseed said:


> David, when I read such black and white advice I like to know what it is based on. Are you speaking from actual breeding experience?


David went from stalking Jeff to an internet training guru with some "flair" He coulda picked up some breeding experience along the way.


----------



## Gerald Guay (Jun 15, 2010)

Mike Scheiber said;


> My current dog is a out cross I had to trust


Most outcrosses produce more robust but less uniform offspring. However when outcrossing the genotype of both parents really matters. 
I personaly like outcrosses.

Cheers,
GG


----------



## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

David Feliciano said:


> Show me where I offered any advice on this thread


That answer will suffice, David.


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Mike Scheiber said:


> My current dog is a out cross :lol: I had to trust


You can bet your last dollar that Trish knew what she was doing! :wink:


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Am interested in the the Chucky/ Pit thing....Lets say there IS pit in chucky...how far back would one have to go to find a pure pit in the dog's lines?

breeding is a crap shoot....knowing the lines better your chances, knowing that the lines of both parents mesh well betters your chances. 

On that note...every LINE starts somewhere, and outcomes of outcrosses are always unknown, when done for the first time...

I don't "think" that the KNPV breeders are just crossing dogs like you may think, could be wrong....

Not sure what you are asking....get a good bitch...breed her and find out  hold a couple back...


----------



## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

pit is 8 generations back, from looking I would have guessed a grandparent


----------



## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

but also, it doesnt seem that rare, lots of knpv dogs seem to have pit or GSD in them


----------



## David Feliciano (Oct 31, 2008)

Matt Grosch said:


> but also, it doesnt seem that rare, lots of knpv dogs seem to have pit or GSD in them


I agree they may have GSD but have my doubts about the pit. I've heard tons of stories about dutch pit crosses but have seen none in the flesh. Personally I don't see what the pit bull has to offer the dutch shepherd. Kind of like when Mike Suttle said there was nothing for a patterdale to offer a dutchie and vice versa. I feel the same way about pit bulls and malinois/dutchies


----------



## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

Matt Grosch said:


> but also, it doesnt seem that rare, lots of knpv dogs seem to have pit or GSD in them


So basically what you are saying is a lot of police departments across the world use dogs that have game fighting dog in their background.....


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

agreed Matt...

a pit in the 8th generation is represents this portion of the dogs make-up 

.00390625 

or .39% 

that is 1 pit out of 256 dogs that contributed to the dog's genetics. 

I do think there has been some experimenting with pitbulls in the KNPV, most likely to a very small degree...the knpv also used great dane as well...among other breeds...it is not just mal/dutchie...

again I am not sure what you are asking...
the knpv program does not cross unpedigreed dogs...they have a pedigree, just not an officially stamped "pure" breed pedigree. The breeders I am sure have a very good knowledge of the dogs in the "pedigree" and the "families" of the dogs in the "pedigree".

if you get a nice bitch, you should be able to find out the pedigree, if the males you choose are knpv dogs, you should be able to trace the dogs they came from...and find out info on the crossing of these "families"

maybe someone who knows the history of the program well will chime in....

if not...and they are strong dogs, breed em anyhow if you'd like. 

the less you know, the less you know...the less you can surmise about the actual genetics of the dog, the less you know what traits are dominant genetically, and what traits are recessively expressed, the less you know about how well the traits will be passed on with any consistency...

but still possibly will produce some great dogs, just a lot more of a gamble...

I think any breeders of most breeders of "pure" papered dogs in the countries you speak of would frown upon crossing of breeds. The knpv does not claim any purity and therefore can do what works for them.


----------



## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

I see two questions here. 
Firstly, the mixing of different breeds, and secondly, how much do bloodlines matter.
On the addition of other breeds, I am happy to take advantage of what has already happened, like the pitts in the KNPV dogs. I cant see myself outcrossing to a pitt, and then selectivly breeding on to bring them back to a Dutch Shepherd type. This takes years and lots of breedings. 
I also think that the Dutch pretty much got it right with what ever dogs they did breed out to. 
Secondly, how much do bloodlines matter? To me they are as important as the actual dog. I want to see Genotype and Phenotype. The bloodlines show me what traits the dog has been bred for, and give me an idea of what came from where. 
I know of some people who got some semen from a well known working Mali in Europe. Now this dog has a fake pedigree and his father is not what is written on the pedigree, they however do not know this. This dog is typical of the fathers bloodlines in character and looks. So these people then looking at the pedigree decided that the strengths of this dog is coming from the bloodlines of the paper father. So they went out and linebred on those "paper" lines. Now they wonder why this dog didnt produce like he was. If they had of bred the male back into his fathers real lines I am pretty confident the pups would be more like the father than the other pups were.


----------



## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

David Feliciano said:


> I agree they may have GSD but have my doubts about the pit. I've heard tons of stories about dutch pit crosses but have seen none in the flesh. Personally I don't see what the pit bull has to offer the dutch shepherd. Kind of like when Mike Suttle said there was nothing for a patterdale to offer a dutchie and vice versa. I feel the same way about pit bulls and malinois/dutchies


Not all the dogs in the KNPV go back to pits, but there are lines that do. I have spoken to people who owned dogs that were the result of the crosses. The information is out there if you know who to talk to. It is however not allowed to train pits or pit crosses in the KNPV. These crosses are no longer done, they were done many years ago. And if some strange dude rings someone up and asks if there is pitbull in their KNPV dog, they arnt just gonna blurt it out. Kinda like how the Mali people arent gonna tell every Tom, Dick or Harry if their dog has a fake pedigree.


----------



## Timothy Saunders (Mar 12, 2009)

Christopher Jones said:


> I see two questions here.
> Firstly, the mixing of different breeds, and secondly, how much do bloodlines matter.
> On the addition of other breeds, I am happy to take advantage of what has already happened, like the pitts in the KNPV dogs. I cant see myself outcrossing to a pitt, and then selectivly breeding on to bring them back to a Dutch Shepherd type. This takes years and lots of breedings.
> I also think that the Dutch pretty much got it right with what ever dogs they did breed out to.
> ...


that is why registration is such garbage. they make people lie and you get what happened to your friend. when you get fake papers you really have half a dog. the line are so important. It keeps you from having to recreate the wheel and trying to figure out the out cross . But in saying that you have to put them together and see what happens...ex pit dutchie


----------



## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

To myself, bloodlines only matter if you can identify consistent/unbroken producing trends that are associated with them, have an awareness of which characteristics might be latently hidden, knowing which lines have have complimented each other well on previous occasion, and your having an ongoing developing sense to envision the crossed results of a proposed pairing.

I have almost no idea about mixing breeds or percentages of formerly mixed breeds.


----------

