# Preference for a Docked or Natural Tail on Boerboels?



## Wawashkashi Tashi (Aug 25, 2009)

Trying to decide with my next litter of Boerboels.....
My 1st litter I left the tails natural, except for the lone fawn pup whose tail was dislocated -his was docked. Following the docking, which I DO believe is a huge physical insult to a neonate, he straggled behind his siblings for a bit. All the other males in the litter are a minimum of 125# (working weight), while he is around 110#. Personally, I could care less about size.. I liked his temperament & attitude so much he's the male I kept for myself, but am concerned about the potential physical harm amputating does to young pups.
Because of the Boerboel being a "composite" breed, you get all kinds of different tails, when you leave them on. Mine seem to favor the Boerhound/Great Dane welt-raising tail that can bring a man to his knees when the dog gets happy! Often heard uttered around my house when my bitch Teal (aka The Tail) is hopping about is "Think Sad Thoughts!!!". -Much preferred is the "softer" Bullmastiff type tail.

Docked:
























One of each, tho the tailed bitch is from me:









And WITH the tail:
















This last one is the Bullmastiff "pump handle" type tail, whish is IME much less painful when you do get whacked with it. He's not from my breeding.
Thanks for your $.02!


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

I prefer just about any molosser with natural tails (and ears if applicable). Docked tails and cropped ears on a blocky headed and bodied dog looks strange to me, JMHO. I've only seen one Boerboel in person and I think it wad docked. It was impressive looking, but it smelled like Fritos and looked like it had skin allergies. Function wise, giving the dog its rudder is important for making fast turns. I'll go for natural tails.


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## kendell jones (Aug 26, 2009)

Both of our pits have natural tails - one is soft and pretty harmless, the other has left more lashes and bruises on me than I care to admit. She's also known for whipping her tail so hard she'll cut it open and blood flies everywhere...like the cabinets, walls, etc. Yeah...gross.

That being said, I still like the natural tails better. There aren't many boerboels around here - tested a few up near Canada a couple years ago and all had natural tails (most were morbidly obese too[-X).


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## Ashley Campbell (Jun 21, 2009)

I have to go with docked. Most breeds that have docked tails have those thin whip tails, and they're abusive when they're happy. I do not miss having a pit that cleared my coffee table with one swipe or beat my legs to death when she was happy.

Ears I couldn't care less about. I think some of the cropped breeds look retarded, great danes and boxers especially. It looks nice on a Dobe, and if it's done neatly on pits.


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

I like tails, so I vote go natural, but I would say that about any breed. In the pictures, I prefer the dogs with the natural tails - that long nubbin looks weird to me.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Natural. No question about it. 

For one, I don't like the longer dock that appears to be more common these days. Besides that for me, a tail adds to the outline and physical visual harmony of a dog. Although, I do believe the tail does serve a functional purpose even if a small one like a counter balance of sort. An example of this would be how they use it to assist in maintaining their balance on ice or an unstable surface.


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## Diana Abel (Aug 31, 2009)

Normally, I'd say natural but if they are painful, I say Dock! lol I've almost had my eye put out by my AB while trying to put on my shoes, among other oh so painful times of getting whipped by the tail. lol :evil:


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## Mike Jones (Jan 22, 2009)

What does the standard call for, docked or natural? I'm not familiar with the breed but, your working photos look awesome! Are you the same guy that got a Sch III on your Boerbol. I believe I saw a write up in the Sch USA magazine.


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## Ron Ackerman (Jul 29, 2007)

Dock 'em Tashi. As a Cane Corso and Rottweiler guy I can't stand those long hound dog tails.


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## Sheena Tarrant (Sep 21, 2008)

I voted for natural. Like them better w/ natural tails, and if tails are really a problem with the breed then somebody should just breed in a naturally 'docked' dog (like that experiment w/ Boxers a while back). ;-) 

As time goes on, I think people might need to either get used to natural tails being left on a dog, come up with a really good reason for removing them, or are going to be required to perform docking in a more 'surgical' manner (ex. more requirements on how docking is performed, requirement for local anaesthetics etc). As I'm sure you all know, it is illegal to dock most dogs in most of the UK - illegal to dock any dog in Scotland, and only dogs intended for actual work in certain breeds can be docked in England and Wales (ex. a pet or show litter of Jack Russells cannot be docked, but a "certified" working litter of Jack Russells can). I wouldn't be too surprised if similar laws are enacted in the US in time.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

When did you dock, and why do you think that is the reason he is smaller ?

I also vote you dock the other end and get it over with. How much does a pup cost ?


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## Kristi Siggers (May 27, 2009)

I much prefer the look of a docked tail on the Boerboel


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Wackem!
As far as needing the tail for balance, I think any terrier person, Aussie person, German Short hair person, yadda, yadda, yadda will disagree with that.
I personally know a Lab that lost her tail in a accident (crushed in a car door) and she never missed a lick when swimming.
I have no problem with docking or cropping as long as they are done correctly. 
A lot of the same wackos that push the "need" to ban docking and cropping are some of the same folks that tell you all dogs need their nuts cut off. Go figure!
It's all a choice!


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

Prefer the docked tails, the issue of balance is not really a big one. I think animals like cheetahs need them more, dogs dont fall because the tail is docked.

@Tashi- really nice pictures, the pics of the dogs from Nigeria with Dapo Ojora are great. I used to talk with the guy on phone. The tailed bitch [sphyrna is her name] is a great dog also. Do you know where he got the fawn male[sting] from?


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Oluwatobi Odunuga said:


> dogs dont fall because the tail is docked.


Ha, ha, ... I sure hope not! \\/


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## Wawashkashi Tashi (Aug 25, 2009)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> It was impressive looking, but it smelled like Fritos and looked like it had skin allergies.


Yep.. unfortunately, skin allergies are yet another common problem most breeders don't test for, in what is sold as a "generally healthy protection breed". :roll:
Thanks for commenting!


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## Wawashkashi Tashi (Aug 25, 2009)

kendell jones said:


> There aren't many boerboels around here - tested a few up near Canada a couple years ago and all had natural tails (most were morbidly obese too[-X).


If you tested anything that was worth a damn, you'll have to PM me about it! I'm always on the look-out for anything that has a proper temperament.
Yeah.. with most Boerboels (or most any mastiffs), their owners will have them anywhere from 10-40# overweight ~then~ will say they are 10# heavier than that! lol -Most I've seen are pretty size-obsessed. I prefer the smaller/houndier version of the breed, the more I work them. Although even the big boys are surprisingly fast & agile for their size, when they have proper drive IMO.


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## Wawashkashi Tashi (Aug 25, 2009)

Mike Jones said:


> What does the standard call for, docked or natural? I'm not familiar with the breed but, your working photos look awesome! Are you the same guy that got a Sch III on your Boerbol. I believe I saw a write up in the Sch USA magazine.


Hey Mike! Well, first of all, I'm not a "guy". ;-) Although I will admit to having a slightly non-gendered name. lol I'm a bit of an "anti-show" person, so "Standard for the breed" wouldn't really sway me one way or the other. The blue brindle male at the top is a non-standard color, as well as being the first Boerboel to earn a BH & Sch title, as well as being a certified Therapy Dog, placing in weight pulls, catching hogs, etc. So he was the sire of my last Boerboel litter even though according to the SABT Standard he isn't really a Boerboel because of his color. Personally, I'm not a fan of the dilute, but he was such an awesome-tempered dog, I was glad to breed to him. "Bluedog" was featured in the Sch USA mag, along with Brandon Wilson's BB Zeb, who is the SchIII dog you are probably thinking of.. although there's been a 2nd write-up about Zeb, so you may be thinking of that article too.
But to answer your question, the tail can be either way according to most, if not all of the standards (there are multiple registries) for the Boerboel. Thanks for your input!


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## Wawashkashi Tashi (Aug 25, 2009)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> When did you dock, and why do you think that is the reason he is smaller ?
> I also vote you dock the other end and get it over with. How much does a pup cost ?


Hey Jeff, Neb was 2 days old, so it was within the normal time for docking. I don't _know_ that it has anything to with it.. or not. After the amputation, he was just generally "behind" his littermates. He didn't put weight on as fast, he developed a little slower, etc. Admittedly, he may have just been that way genetically, even if the whole tail-docking thing hadn't happened. Who knows? I have talked to other BB breeders who told me that when they docked half their litters & left half undocked (trying to cover for what their buyers want), the natural-tailed siblings really out-paced the docked ones in growth & development. IMO since most the times folks dock, they do the whole litter, they probably wouldn't notice any difference.

$15,000 -I have 2 spots left open for reservations -you want in? :lol:


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I wouldn't give you 15 bucks for one of those dogs. Yuck. That is weird about the docking though, I always did it first day if not right away, but I never tried half and half. Of course barbells might just be more sensitive to docking than Rotts. It is weird, and of course you call amputation. LOL


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## Wawashkashi Tashi (Aug 25, 2009)

Oluwatobi Odunuga said:


> Tashi- The tailed bitch [sphyrna is her name] is a great dog also. Do you know where he got the fawn male[sting] from?


Haha.. I know her name: ;-) Dichotomy Sphyrna-Batu is her registered name.. this is her dam, my bitch Dichotomy Batu:
















Sphyrna's sire is that blue brindle dog. I kept her for Dapo for a bit to put some foundation bitework on her & shipped her over around 2 years ago. I think at the time the shipping was about $2800, not including Health Certs, crate, etc. Now I've been told they have passed some BS laws that you have to go through a shipping company when sending dogs from the US.. maybe someone who knows better can comment on that though..?

Sting is an *Excellent* dog!!! I hope to get to breed to him in the near future! [-o< He is from Marvel, although I haven't heard of them turning out to many "workable" dogs.. Dapo got a real good find in Sting. If I were going to look for something workable from a more popular SA breeder, I would go talk to Baden, although I'd *definitely* go test the dogs myself. I've seen a few working dogs from Baden, like Baden Remy, who we did work/test. She is the dam of my fawn male Kala:









Thanks for the compliment on "my" bitch! ;-)


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## Wawashkashi Tashi (Aug 25, 2009)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I wouldn't give you 15 bucks for one of those dogs. Yuck. That is weird about the docking though, I always did it first day if not right away, but I never tried half and half. Of course barbells might just be more sensitive to docking than Rotts. It is weird, and of course you call amputation. LOL


I didn't figure you'd have much use for one.. they'd probably be way too "sticky" for you too. I've talked to lots of Rott & Dobie breeders that report the same thing about the docked pups falling behind the undocked, when in the same litter. They were docking some & leaving others au natural so they could sell 'em abroad, I believe.
I often say "amputation" cuz I work(ed) in the veterinary community & that is what it literally IS! Just like I often say radiograph instead of xray, & knocked down (for sedation), etc.. it's just a bastardized combo of more common lingo & laziness. lol


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## kendell jones (Aug 26, 2009)

Wawashkashi Tashi said:


> If you tested anything that was worth a damn, you'll have to PM me about it! I'm always on the look-out for anything that has a proper temperament.
> Yeah.. with most Boerboels (or most any mastiffs), their owners will have them anywhere from 10-40# overweight ~then~ will say they are 10# heavier than that! lol -Most I've seen are pretty size-obsessed. I prefer the smaller/houndier version of the breed, the more I work them. Although even the big boys are surprisingly fast & agile for their size, when they have proper drive IMO.


 
unfortunately, not even close. One of them had done a BH, but to this day, I couldn't figure out how. I swear a 20 foot recall took the dog 10 minutes and I thought she was going to die walking that far. It was pretty disgusting. Temperament wise, they were friendly, but that's about where it ended. I've got more drive in my pinky toe than I saw in these dogs and they were grossly over-sized.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> Wackem!
> As far as needing the tail for balance, I think any terrier person, Aussie person, German Short hair person, yadda, yadda, yadda will disagree with that.
> I personally know a Lab that lost her tail in a accident (crushed in a car door) and she never missed a lick when swimming.
> I have no problem with docking or cropping as long as they are done correctly.
> ...


That's probably why all the Aussies get beat by the BCs in agility, disc, and herding. :lol: ;-) I'm not even approaching it from a "let's ban it because it's cruel" perspective, but a performance perspective. Anyways, we've discussed it before, but it's not like a docked dog "can't" perform, but if you look at any tailed dog doing disc or any other activity that requires a high degree of speed plus turning or jumping or whatever, the tails are in motion acting as a counter balance. Watching sighthounds course a lure or a live animal, their tails almost helicopter around as they try to make a fast turn at 40 mph. Cheetahs are mentioned, but animals as diverse as rats to velociraptors to kangaroos use or used their tails as a counter balance when moving at high speeds, jumping, balancing, and climbing. For performance reasons, would I want a docked dog for what I do? No. Actual go to ground terriers may be the one exception, but as I have no use for a terrier, meh...

What I always find ironic is that it seems to be the show breeders who protest not cropping or docking the most because they always say the dog needs it for work, but they work their dogs the least. I guess they are scared they will actually have to fix the ear sets or tail sets? *shrug* If they want ears that stand, breed for it. If they don't want skimpy whip tails, breed for it.

I always have been curious though, for breeds designed for a similar use, why is the pit bull often cropped but the American bulldog not? Why is the Pembroke Welsh corgi docked but the Cardigan is not? Why is the Boerboel docked but the bullmastiff not? Why is the Rottweiler not cropped but docked and often not to the same length as a Doberman? In the end, I think it mostly comes down to what people are used to seeing. Like 20 years ago, it was much more common to see cropped boxers. Now it's pretty uncommon to see a pet Boxer cropped and more common to see them natural eared, but you still see them docked. Ah, silly humans and our trends... ;-)


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

It is illegal to dock tails in Australia too. I dont know about other working dogs but they are essential to my herding dogs as they use them for balance and steering in those fast tight turns when mustering and for balance when backing across 100s of sheep in the yards. My dogs work in extreme conditions and I know how they use their tails to give them the edge, I just have to watch them working and no one gonna convince me otherwise. To me they are a very functional part of a dog. Same with ACDs dealing with station cattle - split second timing from under those hooves sometimes and they most certainly use their tails

They are also a very expressive part of the dog.


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## Dapo Ojora (Jan 9, 2010)

Tashi,

I'm very pleased with Sphyrna though in that shot we let her go first as the lead dog in a 2 dog attack. I find the tailed dogs have better natural balance "rudder" wise (function). The docked dogs tend to look tidier (aesthetics).


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## Wawashkashi Tashi (Aug 25, 2009)

kendell jones said:


> unfortunately, not even close. One of them had done a BH, but to this day, I couldn't figure out how. I swear a 20 foot recall took the dog 10 minutes and I thought she was going to die walking that far. It was pretty disgusting. Temperament wise, they were friendly, but that's about where it ended. I've got more drive in my pinky toe than I saw in these dogs and they were grossly over-sized.


Sadly, that's not unexpected. Not too many folks are actually trying to preserve any historic value of the breed.. same sad song as most the other "working" breeds. When I have been approached about breeding to one of my males, I ask the ppl where they think their bitch is "lacking" & what they are trying to produce, so I have an idea of what male's personality/temperament will best suit that particular breeding. Since so far I always get the answer that "my bitch is PERFECT", I tell them they are obviously doing better than me & probably wouldn't want to taint their stuff with mine, since it's a long way from perfect! lol!


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## Wawashkashi Tashi (Aug 25, 2009)

Dapo Ojora said:


> Tashi,I'm very pleased with Sphyrna though in that shot we let her go first as the lead dog in a 2 dog attack. I find the tailed dogs have better natural balance "rudder" wise (function). The docked dogs tend to look tidier (aesthetics).


Nice to see you aboard! So your vote goes for "Pro-Tail"..? ;-)


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## Sharon Bank (Jun 23, 2009)

Wawashkashi Tashi said:


> Sadly, that's not unexpected. Not too many folks are actually trying to preserve any historic value of the breed.. same sad song as most the other "working" breeds. When I have been approached about breeding to one of my males, I ask the ppl where they think their bitch is "lacking" & what they are trying to produce, so I have an idea of what male's personality/temperament will best suit that particular breeding. Since so far I always get the answer that "my bitch is PERFECT", I tell them they are obviously doing better than me & probably wouldn't want to taint their stuff with mine, since it's a long way from perfect! lol!


Good answer! I got a good chuckle out of it, and it put a big grin on my face.


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## Wawashkashi Tashi (Aug 25, 2009)

Sharon Bank said:


> Good answer! I got a good chuckle out of it, and it put a big grin on my face.


Always nice to cheer up a dog-friend's day!  When are you going to bring your big beasties to come & visit?? I'd come to you, but I have a hard enough time getting my local "puppy-owners" to bring their mutts out for people to see/meet when it's just a 20 minute drive! :razz: Ha!
Hope all is well!


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