# Opening the kennel clubs



## Derek Milliken (Apr 19, 2009)

http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/item/3672/23/5/3

For those on this board who either don't believe in the purebred kennel clubs, don't participate in them, or choose to breed entirely outside of them, I thought you might find this interesting.
Seems the UK kennel club is willing to accept registrations for dogs of "unverified parentage" in order to improve their genetics.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Aside from the money they will receive from new registrations :roll: , I agree with it!
Get some new blood in there. 
Of course the "new" dogs should be tested for whatever ails the particular breed.


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## Derek Milliken (Apr 19, 2009)

As I read it, a dog would have to look like the breed it's being bred into, and would have to at least take limited health tests.
So, for example, on here, a KNPV x-mal could be bred into the pedigreed malinois population as long as it takes health tests, and over the first few generations it breeds true.


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Step in the right direction imo if breeders use this option wisely. Some breeds are really in trouble right now.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

This seems to have a few holes in it. 

1. Unverified Parentage but the dog has to be a representive of the same breed. So who's to say the dogs are not related? It just seems like this allows for haphazard breeding. Has problems in the lines?...Less information is not going to help. It would make much more sense to take dogs from breeds that r different but have documented lineage. Basically Show me the carfax.

2. How many unverfied dogs worth a shit are just laying around the kennel club?

3. pure bred dogs resemble thier parents because of already somewhat "tight" genes. Breeding dogs of the same breed whether they have papers or not is still breeding the same way we always have. Now we just do not know who the parents are.


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## Derek Milliken (Apr 19, 2009)

I think you're missing the point James,
The "B register" has existed in dogs before, and exists in virtually every other purebred animal register, horses, cattle, etc. Everyone else knows that occasional, compatible, carefully chosen, outcrosses are neccesary for the health of any closed population of animals.
The idea is not to bring in totally unknown genetics, but to bring in comparable genetics, in order to increase the health of the breed without changing the overall identity of the breed.
"Unverified" simply means not registered with a kennel club, no fancy piece of paper, not neccesarily unknown.
As for your last 2 points, shit dogs and tight genes, one of this sites sponsors has posted a number of nice videos of a nice sized, hard working "unverified" malinois. I'm betting he knows the parents of the dog, I'm betting it's not a shit dog just lying around, and I'm betting (I looked, so I know) that it's genes aren't so tight on my mal. 
If I had a female I'd at least consider breeding to him, for the betterment of the breed. 
Either way, it doesn't apply in Canada, but that same site sponsor is an individual I'd be happy to buy an "unverified" dog from.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

So what breeds do you think that the British are going to fix ?? : )

Do you think they are talking about the working dogs, or do you think they are talking about different breeds ??


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Derek Milliken said:


> I think you're missing the point James,
> The "B register" has existed in dogs before, and exists in virtually every other purebred animal register, horses, cattle, etc. Everyone else knows that occasional, compatible, carefully chosen, outcrosses are neccesary for the health of any closed population of animals.
> The idea is not to bring in totally unknown genetics, but to bring in comparable genetics, in order to increase the health of the breed without changing the overall identity of the breed.
> "Unverified" simply means not registered with a kennel club, no fancy piece of paper, not neccesarily unknown.
> ...


And it's comprable genetics that got us here. Breeding to comporable genetics whether it has papers or not will lead to the same result. Evetually if you breed Malinois to Malinois...Sooner or later whether they have papers, you know the parents...you do not know the parents....all roads will lead to Rome. You will reduce the number of variables so much all the dogs will be related.

From what I know open registries in other species do not work like this. They take Breed A and mate it to Breed B. Then take new specimen from breed A Breed back to offspring A. They do not take Breed A with papers, and mate it to Breed A without papers. 

And Whether you believe it or not. Breeds are formed by reducing the number of variable genes in a blood line. We are talking about taking a species and removing so many variable you can with some degree of accuracy guess what the pups will look and act like. Breed a GSD to GSD...you Get GSD. Breed Mix to Mix...every pup could look and act unique. 

And Your analogy to a single breeder, operating his own breeding program where he has control of everything is nice. But he's one kennel... I am sure you have seen some breeders maybe not being as diligent as he. I would take my post as personal attack on someones breeding program. 

It's not really worth arguing about...I am just one guy saying there seems to be flaws. I just do not think it's going to work. No worries I would not spend to much time trying to convince me otherwise.


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## Derek Milliken (Apr 19, 2009)

ok,
No real desire to argue, but I think it's pretty plain you never read the link, hence don't know that most of the flaws you're talking about seem to be at least partially addressed.
You're poulation genetics is mostly right, but not quite. If you'd like some friendly argument we can do that privately.
Absolutely you're right, most breeders are far less diligent then Mr. Suttle. But I think it's unlikely that a less diligent breeder would jump through the hoops needed to be allowed to participate in this program.
You're right, I'm sure there will be flaws, but it's certainly better than the path all KC breeders are forced go down right now. 
Just thought some people might find this interesting... That's all.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I've seen similar to this in the AKC. Back in the 80s the Basenji folks went to Africa to get "natural" stock to refresh their breed. There were a few genetic problems in particular but I don't recall what they were.
They did help considerably but also brought in new health problems the breed never had.
If you see a brindle Basenji you know it goes back to the African stock. The color wasn't in the breed before that.
There was also some crossing of English Pointer blood in the Dalmation. Never heard any results, good or bad, from that one.


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## Derek Milliken (Apr 19, 2009)

I really didn't open this conversation up to be an argument.
I just brought it from my background where I studied a lot of population genetics in university. And where I think the flaws in the program are far outweighed by the possible benefits, not just to the working dogs we all love, train and breed, but to all pedigreed dogs in general.

Bob,
I don't know a lot about the Basenji cross project, I've read about it, but not a lot. 
The dalmation cross I know a lot more about. Essentially, all dalmatians are double reccesive for a gene which causes them to produce high concentrations of uric acid. This can cause both painful stones to the dog and other more serious health problems, up to and including death.
In the 1970's a single pointer was crossed to a dalmatian. Those puppies that had spots and had low uric acid levels were crossed back to dalmatians. Etc, etc, more spotted dogs with lower uric acid levels.
Last year, due to the new policy with the KC in britain a female Dal appeared at top dog shows. She won some, but not the big ones.
Point is, she had normal uric acid levels, and at least on that front, she's capable of living a normal, pain free life. And if she's bred her puppes might fare better than the average Dal.
Her name is Fiona, or Fiacre First and Foremost, as registered.

I'm not saying this thread is the end all and be all of dog breeding, no shit it's not, but it is a good step in the right direction.


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## Stephen Bowerman (Apr 8, 2011)

Guess I will be the only one that is going to disagree with this. If you take a dog you know nothing about but it looks like a Bouvier and your allowed to use it in your breeding program I see where a lot more problems then already exist can get into the lines. I believe there is enough diversity that if your willing to do your home work and pay the price to do so you can find enough good dogs to better your particular breed. I see this as nothing more then breeding a poodle with a Cocker and calling it a designer dog. There are enough bogus registries right now on the internet where you can register anything for a fee. In my opinion you would be doing your breed more harm then good. I also do not buy into all the retoric about mixed breeds being healthier the pure bred dogs. That is just a way to promote rescues, pounds and organizations like Peta.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> I've seen similar to this in the AKC. Back in the 80s the Basenji folks went to Africa to get "natural" stock to refresh their breed. There were a few genetic problems in particular but I don't recall what they were.
> They did help considerably but also brought in new health problems the breed never had.
> If you see a brindle Basenji you know it goes back to the African stock. The color wasn't in the breed before that.
> There was also some crossing of English Pointer blood in the Dalmation. Never heard any results, good or bad, from that one.


I met the wife of the original couple who did this. The husband was actually in the Congo at the time trying to bring some Basenjis more back. They seem to be very responsible breeders just talking with the lady. I also agree with the English pointer outcrossing. 

Perhaps it's because as I was trained as a biologist before I was trained as a vet, for species like the Florida panther where it's got less than 100 individuals left and experiencing severe inbreeding depressing, I personally think it's more valuable if they want to save the subspecies of the Florida panther, they're going to need to bring in some fresh blood with mountain lions from the west. A species's biological niche is, to me, more important than Victorian era ideas of "pure blood."


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> I met the wife of the original couple who did this. The husband was actually in the Congo at the time trying to bring some Basenjis more back. They seem to be very responsible breeders just talking with the lady. I also agree with the English pointer outcrossing.
> 
> Perhaps it's because as I was trained as a biologist before I was trained as a vet, for species like the Florida panther where it's got less than 100 individuals left and experiencing severe inbreeding depressing, I personally think it's more valuable if they want to save the subspecies of the Florida panther, they're going to need to bring in some fresh blood with mountain lions from the west. A species's biological niche is, to me, more important than Victorian era ideas of "pure blood."



Damara Boltie was very involved in that. She was also a Border terrier breeder and a AKC judge that I had met and also showed under a few times. Nice lady! Fantastic artist!
Of course I think she was nice. She gave my Border dog Rags, a BOW at the Nationals. :-D
:-$ :-$ That's show dog "stuff" 8-[ #-o


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## jamie wilson (Jan 10, 2011)

Love it=D>


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