# Line Aggitation



## Gregory Escolta (Mar 11, 2010)

Good idea, or false confidence for your working dog?/


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## Jason Lin (May 26, 2009)

What's that?


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## Gregory Escolta (Mar 11, 2010)

Jason Lin said:


> What's that?


When you line up all the dogs in a row, or anchor them to something a certain distance apart and have them all react to the same target, rather than a 1 on 1 type of aggitation


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

Are you speaking of hitting the lead while the dogs on a bite in preperation for stick hits?

Never mind


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## Eric Shearer (Oct 30, 2008)

Here is a link to a good example of "Line Aggitation"...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5xVx4yXcFxE
It is a good tool and depending on your circumstances (Have to work a lot of dogs by yourself... Bring out a weaker dog... Build aggression...) It can work well if you know what you are doing. I would only use it sparingly but I have seen good results from it. 
E


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## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

Gregory Escolta said:


> *When you line up all the dogs in a row*, or anchor them to something a certain distance apart and have them all react to the same target, rather than a 1 on 1 type of aggitation



Never do this. I want my dog to be able to do it on his own. He has to be independant.


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## Gregory Escolta (Mar 11, 2010)

Martine Loots said:


> Never do this. I want my dog to be able to do it on his own. He has to be independant.


I always hear mixed things about it, but i have been working w/ two different trainers. 1 thinks line aggitation is perfectly acceptable, the other one is always bashing line aggitation. The trainer that utilizes line agitation has 1/5 very reliable dogs, while the one that doesnt do line aggitation has 4/5 badass dogs. Im sure there are other factors, but I feel line aggitation just gives dogs false confidence.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

It can also create more problems with a dog that has dog aggression issues. They can become fixed on the dogs around them instead of the helper/decoy.


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## Gregory Escolta (Mar 11, 2010)

Bob Scott said:


> It can also create more problems with a dog that has dog aggression issues. They can become fixed on the dogs around them instead of the helper/decoy.


Great point. Saw a mali go after a poor rottweiler that had no drive whatsoever. Not a fun day. What made it worse was the guy I was training under proceeded to beat the living hell out of the mali... Slamming his head in the concrete. hitting him over the head with a club. I immediately left and still havent spoken to the bastard.


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## Eric Shearer (Oct 30, 2008)

I also agree with Martine...* " I want my dog to be able to do it on his own. He has to be independant."*
But some people have limited resources and have to use the tools available to them to get the desired results.
There are not many helpers / decoys that can actually bring out true aggression in a dog. It is sad but true. I would rather do line agitation that have some hillbilly beat my dog with a whip and not know what to do when the dog does react appropriately ... lol " *OOOO WEEEE bBilly did you see them teef?// he's real pissed now"*...lol I know that is an over statement on most cases ... not all but most but you would be surprised at what goes on in some of the training circles... just food for thought.
E


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## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

Eric Shearer said:


> There are not many helpers / decoys that can actually bring out true aggression in a dog.


This isn't something that should be "brought out". If the dog doesn't do the work without all that "trying" then he isn't made for the work and you better leave him alone. You simply can't force something to come out if it isn't there initially.


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## Eric Shearer (Oct 30, 2008)

Good point Martine. But in America there are many that just get a dog and then start training rather than get the *right* dog and train from a good genetic foundation. Or get a dog from a good litter and have the pup turn out to be medicoer ... Again Sad but true... kind of a work with what you have mentality. 
And as Jeff O would say some dogs have higher thresholds than others...lol
I agree with your thoughts and you are lucky to have the resources that you do. 
E


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## Gregory Escolta (Mar 11, 2010)

Martine Loots said:


> This isn't something that should be "brought out". If the dog doesn't do the work without all that "trying" then he isn't made for the work and you better leave him alone. You simply can't force something to come out if it isn't there initially.


thats the mentality I have, but a lot of people out here think you can mold the dog into what you want it to be. I would rather have a dog that has the natural instinct to do what I want it to do, and simply work with that, than have to push things out of a dog.



Eric Shearer said:


> Good point Martine. But in America there are many that just get a dog and then start training rather than get the *right* dog and train from a good genetic foundation. Or get a dog from a good litter and have the pup turn out to be medicoer ... Again Sad but true... kind of a work with what you have mentality.
> And as Jeff O would say some dogs have higher thresholds than others...lol
> I agree with your thoughts and you are lucky to have the resources that you do.
> E


 
Sad but true is right...


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## Mike Lauer (Jul 26, 2009)

we have done this with very young puppies to let them see what we want or for a dog that isnt a big barker
sometimes it speeds upt he learning curve
but yes it would be nice if it was natural


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## Candy Eggert (Oct 28, 2008)

I've seen this done with old school German (or wanna be German) trainers that line up dogs, tied out on the fence line, agitate them with run bys and never let them bite ](*,)Allegedly builds drive and frustration. Both for young dogs and older, inexperienced dogs as well. Mostly GSD's.

I haven't seen this done in years though, so maybe times are a changing


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## Eric Shearer (Oct 30, 2008)

From what I understand some of the KNPV clubs have dogs tied out most of their first year... i've seen dogs tethered to poles with ruts dug in so deep you could barley see the dog...lol Some do it some dont... Natural drive attitude and ability are great but most lack in some areas and excell in others and to achieve balance you have to work with the dog and "mold" it to be the best dog it can be. Manufactured or not. Besides in most sports people do not want real aggression. Just prey monsters that will get the most points. 
I agree with mike it can work well to get non barkers to bark and seed things up a bit. 
I'm not mad a t the Skinny Romanian guy. I have seen his other work and he has some very nice dogs and titles to prove it. 
E


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## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

I know it is done in KNPV but I don't see the use of it. IMO only thing you get is dogs that bark all the time and I don't allow that to my dogs. I want them to forget they have a voice unless I need it for the bark and hold.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: This isn't something that should be "brought out". If the dog doesn't do the work without all that "trying" then he isn't made for the work and you better leave him alone. You simply can't force something to come out if it isn't there initially.

I have been trying to tell Shieber this for years. LOL Maybe he will listen to the foreigner.


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## Gregory Escolta (Mar 11, 2010)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: This isn't something that should be "brought out". If the dog doesn't do the work without all that "trying" then he isn't made for the work and you better leave him alone. You simply can't force something to come out if it isn't there initially.
> 
> I have been trying to tell Shieber this for years. LOL Maybe he will listen to the foreigner.


 
The dog has to have the heart for it.... the same way a MMA fighter must have a heart for that.... Soft cats get washed out early!


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Martine Loots said:


> This isn't something that should be "brought out". If the dog doesn't do the work without all that "trying" then he isn't made for the work and you better leave him alone. You simply can't force something to come out if it isn't there initially.


In todays "modern":roll: world it's all about "developing". I hate the words developing drives. I look at it as channeling what the dog already has, be it the chase (drives) or be serious in it's bite work.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: This isn't something that should be "brought out". If the dog doesn't do the work without all that "trying" then he isn't made for the work and you better leave him alone. You simply can't force something to come out if it isn't there initially.
> 
> I have been trying to tell Shieber this for years. LOL Maybe he will listen to the foreigner.


Meh we have always brought out our young Shepherds and Rottweilers to watch bite work or have what we call puppy circle nothing like the video mind you.
Shit when I'm conditioning my Schutzhund III dog I'll keep him out after his training session for a bit more barking or rest him a bit and bring him back out barking is great for conditioning.


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## Gregory Escolta (Mar 11, 2010)

Thanks for all the input folks


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## shawn murace (Feb 20, 2007)

I've done this along with judicious use of a whip with highline dogs to get any type of reaction out of the dogs. I've never done it with working lines except when working pups with a flirt pole. Anyhow, as was stated before (from Bob, I think) the dogs usually cue on each other so although they're barking it's aimed at the dog next door, rarely the helper. Depending on the amount of dogs back tied this can physically take a toll on the helper especially when more action is required to keep the dogs in "drive" and I use the term drive loosely.

Also my personal opinion is folks will back tie multiple dogs (atleast in showline circles) because when the dogs are worked individually they will go into avoidance or run off the field when confronted by the helper. I think it's the strength in numbers theory that govern showline breeders wanting multiple dogs backtied together.


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## sam wilks (May 3, 2009)

I think that tying a dog out is good for it. I also think that it is a good tool to teach a dog to bark. I've never seen someone tie a bunch of dogs out to build aggression, but it don't sound like a good idea.


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## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

JMO, but I really don't see the use of uncontrolled barking. Dogs barking on the field, in their kennels, in the car etc... drive me crazy.
I need a dog to bark when a stranger comes on my property and on the field when he has to do the search-bark-hold, but that's it. The rest of the time he has to be quiet.
I hate noisy dogs and they very well know that they get punished when they are.

Uncontrolled barking certainly won't build drive. I much more prefer a dog that focuses on his target (stares), without moving, without a noise, but every muscle in his body tense and ready for the action.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Sch has a bunch of bullshit about barking, like it is good conditioning for the dog. AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA

Idiots.


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## Gregory Escolta (Mar 11, 2010)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Sch has a bunch of bullshit about barking, like it is good conditioning for the dog. AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA
> 
> Idiots.


 
LOL


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: 
JMO, but I really don't see the use of uncontrolled barking. Dogs barking on the field, in their kennels, in the car etc... drive me crazy.

I have gotten into the damn GSD's again. The one I raised is quiet as a churchmouse unless he is playing in his crate. The others cannot shut the **** up. I have e-collars on them now, as that barking and screaming every time I move has me batshit crazy.


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I have gotten into the damn GSD's again. The one I raised is quiet as a churchmouse unless he is playing in his crate. The others cannot shut the **** up. I have e-collars on them now, as that barking and screaming every time I move has me batshit crazy.


Sure blame it on the dogs again .


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Martine Loots said:


> JMO, but I really don't see the use of uncontrolled barking. Dogs barking on the field, in their kennels, in the car etc... drive me crazy.
> I need a dog to bark when a stranger comes on my property and on the field when he has to do the search-bark-hold, but that's it. The rest of the time he has to be quiet.
> I hate noisy dogs and they very well know that they get punished when they are.


=D> I really couldn't agree more with what you wrote. I feel exactly the same way you do about it.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Martine Loots said:


> JMO, but I really don't see the use of uncontrolled barking. Dogs barking on the field, in their kennels, in the car etc... drive me crazy.
> I need a dog to bark when a stranger comes on my property and on the field when he has to do the search-bark-hold, but that's it. The rest of the time he has to be quiet.
> I hate noisy dogs and they very well know that they get punished when they are.
> 
> Uncontrolled barking certainly won't build drive. I much more prefer a dog that focuses on his target (stares), without moving, without a noise, but every muscle in his body tense and ready for the action.


I hate uncontrolled barking. My dog had best be quiet and mind his manners or suffer the consequences. I see a lot of dogs wind themselves up and I think it's just a stupid waste of energy and a lack of discipline.


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## Gregory Escolta (Mar 11, 2010)

The guy I was training under had his dogs barking constantly, and didnt seem to mind it.... he was actually amused by it... Personally, I have excrutiating headaches 4-5 days out of the week, I dont want them all 7!


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: This isn't something that should be "brought out". If the dog doesn't do the work without all that "trying" then he isn't made for the work and you better leave him alone. You simply can't force something to come out if it isn't there initially.
> 
> I have been trying to tell Shieber this for years. LOL Maybe he will listen to the foreigner.


Shit I just watched it **** me did you see that SUPER MAN move at the 2:20 mark that mofo is as charged up as them dogs I think I seen some sparks come out of the pant leg of them scratch pants maybe a little shit to!!!!!
"that's how ya do it" 
You coming up this way next weekend for Lisa G's trial to bad you ain't coming up a week early were having a work shop at her place this weekend we could try a little dog teasing, work in some acrobatic agitation pre-tuning for next weekend try and get a little lead out maybe.


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