# Hypothetical question here……….



## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

If you had a dog that you LOVED training, felt he was “the one” you had been waiting for and he made you “want” to train and so very happy………would you give him up to someone who could take him farther, better, and faster than you? If someone more experienced and dedicated than you asked you for your dog……..would you give it up for them to train?

Now lets say it was an off breed, so we are not talking a malinois where there are plenty to go around and that your goal was always to see the breed in the hands of the “more experienced” handlers and out there really competing. Would you let it go then? 

Just curious……….

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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

It depends, if the dog was the best dog ever but I could do him right with my handling skills, then No, I would not. 

If the dog could be the best, but my handling skills were detrimental or causing the dog to be "unsafe" then yes, the right thing to do would be to place him with a handler that could take him as far as his potential would go. 

Been there, done it. And the dog is kicking ass as a PSD prospect (narcs, patrol and tracking). The dog was kicking MY ass while here.  Great little dog, but too much for what I train for. 

Handlers have to be realistic and be able to say "this dog is too much for me".


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## Lyn Chen (Jun 19, 2006)

Sometimes people think what's best for a dog is a handler who can take them 'further'. But what is 'further' to the dog? If it is in terms of sport, I don't think a dog knows a podium...that's all people stuff. I kind of feel sorry for dogs who change hands till the day they die, all for the sake of sport or breed. 

I do agree with Carol in that I might consider it if the dog is miserable with me or something.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

I did this earlier this year. It was not just a matter of a handler taking them further, but also a matter of improving both dog's quality of life, and pairing them with handler's that were better personality matches.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I don't have to think about it - I wouldn't.

Having had all my dogs from puppies, I can't see why they would be better off with someone else. They would most certainly achieve greater heights but what would that benefit them?

I would have to be so ill that the dogs weren't getting a life to consider it and then it would have to be someone extremely trustworthy, and not just someone who could make them winners. And what would happen when they were too old to compete?

I don't think dogs suffer overmuch when they change hands, if they go to a good home - I think it hurts us more than it does them. And I wouldn't condemn anyone who felt it would be better to place the dog elsewhere even for the sake of the sport but I respect the trainer who lets his dogs retire in their old home.


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

As long as you can provide the dog decent living conditions there isn’t a reason to get rid of him. The dog don’t care how far he gets he just wants to eat and lick himself. Hell most of us here would have to give up our dogs if we wanted them to go as far as they could. Ill be the first to admit I drag mine down.


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Chris McDonald said:


> As long as you can provide the dog decent living conditions there isn’t a reason to get rid of him. The dog don’t care how far he gets he just wants to eat and lick himself. Hell most of us here would have to give up our dogs if we wanted them to go as far as they could. Ill be the first to admit I drag mine down.



I took it as a "too much dog" hypothetical....nothing wrong with admitting that I had one that was too much dog. I am happy with myself because the dog is now much happier and doing well.


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## Jenn Schoonbrood (Oct 31, 2008)

I would, and I have. Not an off-breed though, she was a Dutchie. My off-breeds never worked out. The BC's and ACD's ended up in herding homes, the Corso ended up being a lovely companion and guardian, and I've just accepted that I am a push-button Malinois/Dutchie person. :mrgreen:


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

that's a toughie. i think if i had a dog that i really couldn't train to it's potential (and that's most of 'em, TBH), but had a top level trainer really wanting to take it, i would consider it as long as i retained some breeding rights. 

but i'm a mushy female who really gets attached to her dogs, plus i've never had the question arise, so what do i know?


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

I asked myself this same question for months. Went back and forth with my x, he's a better handler (has way more experience, he wants to win more than I do) I gave up my pup to him afer countless arguments because I wanted my dog to go farther...well my dog sat in the kennel and him on the couch one too many times, so I took my dog back. More than a couple people said the dog worked better for me anyway.

I decided nobody can care for my dog like I can and I wont risk that. Even my own boyfriend at the time had his own beliefes and opinions about how to raise a dog, we didn't even closely agree. Why let my dog rot in a kennel unless he is being worked? I didn't and don't see that bennefiting the dog or taking him farther, I didn't see the trophy mattering to the dog. Above all I wanted my dog happy and healthy, I give him the best foods unlike someone else who may take him farther on the field. So far I haven't drug him down too far, he is still passing and improving every day we are out there working. He's still a good strong dog even after spending many hours in the house and using compulsion (OMG).  

I'll never let anyone talk me down or out of my dog again. If I didn't have the time or want to do it myself...maybe but bottom line, the dogs don't care about anything but their care. Not the points, not the trophies and certainly not our ego's. If you really love a dog your only hurting yourself by letting it go and possibly the dog as well.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

> If you really love a dog your only hurting yourself by letting it go and possibly the dog as well.


That is where my situation was different. 

One of the dogs I placed I literally detested. Could not tolerate. Drove me crazy-up-the-wall. A bit sad because the dog worshipped the ground I walked on and HE was totally bonded to me. He did his "work" well, and I loved that, he was just a dog I couldn't live with. Now he has a handler that suits his personality and he still gets to do what he loves to do.

The other dog is a baby-cuddle-bug and because I got divorced, I was going to have to keep her exclusively outdoors for a year. After a couple months, it was very clear the dog just needed more. She's got a fabulous home with a stunt dog show, where all the dogs are treated like kings. She's got her doggie playmates and she gets to play disc and perform her tricks and get loved on by hundreds of people. I can't imagine something better for her. It would have been more than selfish an inhumane for me to keep her. I raised her from a pup and had her for 4 years, she was absolutely my baby. But I don't miss her at all and I don't regret placing her either.


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## Mario Fernandez (Jun 21, 2008)

> Now lets say it was an off breed, so we are not talking a malinois where there are plenty to go around and that your goal was always to see the breed in the hands of the “more experienced” handlers and out there really competing. Would you let it go then?


If you are limited in not having the help (access to trainers/ helpers.. a club) or have limited time for the dog or even perhaps have too many dogs and can't properly care for the dog via job, family, financial means.. than by all means yes. Your goal is to get the breed in to expierenced hands, so if an opportunity arises what is stopping you? Our breed has gone to some expierence hands and for various reason it didn't work out........The only way people become "expierenced" is by doing and training dog after dog and learning from thier mistakes. You yourself say you enjoy training the dog, this is what all that matters.

Regards,

Mario


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## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

*Thank you all for the responses, ok maybe not so hypothetical. I hear much of my own thoughts in the threads. The dog is a lot of dog, but I personally am not afraid of good challenge and maybe even like it a bit lol. I am in love with this dog, I cant not look at him without admiration and a big smile and that is the hard part, he just brings me so much damn joy to train. Person is good friend and he is transitioning from his last competition dog to his next and hasn’t been able to find what he is looking for. He has never disrespected my abilities, just asked if he could have the dog for his next competition dog as he really likes the dog. Would I hold the dog back? I would lose points on the field for handler mistakes. I would take much longer to reach our goals. He has all the time in the world, extremely dedicated and would train him every day and could probably whip out his titles relatively quick. His handling skills and experience are above and beyond mine. Initially I was very upset at the request as the thought of not training him made me very sad. Now I am simply confused on what to do. I have the chance to get a dog into very qualified hands which is something I have always wanted……..BUT…….. it also happens to be the dog that I have been looking for too. I do have a much younger dog who is also looking to be very promising but I don’t have the same bond with him and that would take me back at least a year if not more on trialing*

*Thanks again for all the responses……..my head is spinning lol. *

*t*


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Carol Boche said:


> I took it as a "too much dog" hypothetical....nothing wrong with admitting that I had one that was too much dog. I am happy with myself because the dog is now much happier and doing well.


 
Got you, “the too much dog” yes that makes sense. I was in that situation two years ago with my current dog. It took a lot but has worked out. You are right I was kind of looking for the right home and was getting very close to doing it. 
I kind of got the impression the dog was not too much, but the owner was not skilled enough to take the dog to its full potential. Which in turn could/ would make the dog too much. After re-reading I see you view.


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## Julie Ann Alvarez (Aug 4, 2007)

Tracy, If I were you I would have to say "Thank You but NO". Maybe you can help the guy find his next dog but yours is doing good with you and maybe you will learn a lot from this dog. If you give him up then how will you know if you couldn't take the dog as far as this other guy (it may take a little longer but who cares)?

* on a side note, if the person was offering a considerable sum and you could use the money then would you? Maybe this is for another thread...


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## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

Thanks Julie. For some reason your post rang the hardest in my ears.

My fear is that......well I know.........he will get a herder lol.........and I really would LOVE for a herder person to try a 'good' off breed for a change.........too much of the good handlers getting out of the breed.

I would NOT let the dog go for money...........the dog would ONLY go for "training" by another and then back to me, which could mean I had some trialing in him yet..........but it wouldnt be the same as if I did it on my own........such a stubborn ol goat I am lol. 

Now add in the thought of a hopeful pregnancy in the next year lol..............fat bellied woman can train and trial right?:-\" 

t


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

> Now add in the thought of a hopeful pregnancy in the next year lol..............fat bellied woman can train and trial right?


Heck yeah! My dog's retrieve improved immeasurably after I couldn't reach the ground to pick it up for him. He delivered it to my hand after that. :lol:

What about drawing up a contract. You own the dog, he handles the dog for 8 - 12 months and you get him back after? Could be messy. But could get you the titles on the dog.


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## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

I don’t see any need for a contract……..I have known him long enough, I train with him on a regular basis. As far as letting him train him and taking him back prematurely………I would NEVER do that to someone…….training a dog for trial and even moreso for competition is a lot of work ……….I would never deflate someones plans like that unless of course there was a concern for the dog’s welfare. If I decide to do this, it will be HIS working dog until he is ready to start on a new one………that is STILL a big IF.

t


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## Julie Ann Alvarez (Aug 4, 2007)

Tracey,

You can train as long as you feel comfortable & capable. We have a club member who is going into her 2nd pregnancy. We take turns holding & watching the 1 year old. When she was pregnant with him we would help with line work etc. At tracking she used a baby pack and tracked her dog with her little boy.

Another club member's daughter has attended training since she was an infant. She is now 15 and quite the handler.

You can do it.

Julie


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## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

Do you guys have some standard details for HC curb cuts at side walks?

Well Im pretty positive I have decided to keep training the dog. Julie you were right, I DON’T know what I can do. That really put some thought into my head. As with his pops, I really only ever wanted to get a Sch I title on him didn’t even care about points and we wound up doing so much more. I never thought I would have this connection with another dog……..so I really don’t think Im giving it up.

t


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## Julie Ann Alvarez (Aug 4, 2007)

Awesome Tracey. I am happy for you. I am sure you will do great.


Julie


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## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

thank you very much. I GREATLY appreciate all the responses.


After a weekend with highlights in both tracking and protection Im feeling pretty good.......now if I could just get the "junk yard" dog out of him and get him to stop thinking the sch jump is the same thing as jumping a fence all would be dandy lol. ](*,)

t

oh and disregard the 'work lingo' in the previous :-\"


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## Courtney Guthrie (Oct 30, 2007)

I have had offers for Judge...Quite a FEW decent offers for him. The one I thought the most about was from a LEO K9 trainer and a well known respected trainer at that. He wanted him for LE training as he has what it takes....BUT he is MY dog and while I can't stand him at times and think that he may be better off elsewhere....He wouldn't and neither would I. He has taught me tons of things about training and he's only 15months old. I may never take him to Nationals even though he is MORE than capable of going there. BUT I will do my best for him and try my hardest and in the end, he'll make me a better trainer than I am now. For that I'm thankful!! I'm hoping that I will be able to take him to Regionals but I don't know what'll happen. 

Granted he is a GSD.....BUT had he been an APBT I would do the same! I'm sure that my little APBT would've went farther with a different trainer but what's training if you send every dog off that may do well with a different trainer! 

Courtney


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