# Strongest behavior?



## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

For PPDs or PSDs, what is the *strongest behavior* you look for in a green dog or puppy? I like a puppy that doesn't give up. Call it hunt drive or prey drive, if it can't problem solve it's JUNK! \\/


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Howard Gaines III said:


> For PPDs or PSDs, what is the *strongest behavior* you look for in a green dog or puppy? I like a puppy that doesn't give up. Call it hunt drive or prey drive, if it can't problem solve it's JUNK! \\/


Sneaking in that this is what I look for in a SAR prospect as well.....along with outgoing behavior too......

back to PPD's and PSD's now..................


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

I look for a dominant outgoing pup, enviromentally sound, grips are big too. I'd have to say enviromental stuff was TOPS, then grip,dominant to varying degrees(depending on what you are looking for), retrieves are nice but I don't really care if a 8 week old pup wont do it, same with the hunt stuff, that usually improves with age and some work making it fun. My dog was mediocre in the retrieve @ 6 weeks and lazy as all hell in the hunt drive dept until over a year old, we have built on that and made it a game and now I can't get him to give up even if I'm tired, it's cold and I can't find the damn ball in the dark myself.


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## Al Curbow (Mar 27, 2006)

Confidence


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

I'm with Al, and I like some independence in a pup. Maybe a little harder to train but I like to see it.


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## Anna Kasho (Jan 16, 2008)

My personal choice - confidence, persistance, quick recovery when stressed. Lots of other stuff too, but confidence is #1.


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

I like biddability, when the dog looks to you for instruction and has a genuine interest in interacting with you. But, unfortunately it doesn't mean much without all the formentioned behaviors listed in this thread. If I had to make a choice, I'd settle for strongly independent, if it came with everything else.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

An interesting mix of ideas and good ones at that. If it blows you off and doesn't want to be part of the team, I understand that. Cocky critter is also good. Problem solver is good in that it wants success and is willing to work towards some solution. Years ago, I had a black Lab female; went dove hunting and put her on a mark for the fallen bird. Nikki worked and worked because she wanted to please me. Well, she brought back a dove, just not mine. It had been shot days ago in a heavly hunted area of the farm. The eyes were rotten and the bird was a little too English for my liking! But success was had none the less.=D>


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

With all the discussion on the "independence" aspect.....let's take it a step further....

A new handler, wanting to get their first working line prospect.....

How many of us would recommend a completely independent pup for them? Especially if they are new to handling dogs to begin with? 

I have independent dogs and I will say that if they would have been my "first" dog, I would have been a frustrated mess. 

Knowing what I do now, they are easier to work with and train since I have the tools to keep the independence, but have created a strong bond with her, so the independence to go out and work is something I love. 

I tend to select the confident pups that are willing to investigate, recover quickly from anything that "spooks" them and are willing to interact with the handler. 

So, unless I am misunderstanding the use of the word "independent", I am not sure I would recommend this for a new handler.


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

True Carol but nobody asked about new handlers, it seems to be a what do "you" like in the bahaviour dept question.

I have a question...how many find Dominant dogs are independant? Mine is so I didn't bother with that term. Also the recovery went hand in hand with solid in environmental stuff.


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Michelle Kehoe said:


> True Carol but nobody asked about new handlers, it seems to be a what do "you" like in the bahaviour dept question.


I know, I was just trying to deepen the conversation since we all probably have been asked by "newbies" or "rookies" what we would recommend for them. Did not mean to Hijack Howard.....sorry.....O


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Yeah Carol there you go, stealing my thunder! ;-) You're right, for many newbies with strong and independant working dogs will fail. I have said it before and some of it comes from my teaching background. Leaders lead, folllowers follow. A strong, independant dog will make things happen. They will push your buttons and mess with your mind.

An easy handling dog, one that wants to please is the best choice for many folks. My one Border Collie, Split, she is a daddy's girl and loves to win my favor. Jess on the other hand will have you finding new foul words to flow from your face. She's an independant worker and headstrong! That part I don't like, headstrong.

Then there are my big Bouvs...=D> :mrgreen: Bouviers of which I refer here! Pleasers and yet very different from the BCs. Kind of like a .410 or a .12 guage shotgun. Problem solving is something that I want to see in all dogs. The dog that throws up their paws and wants to go home isn't worth owning. My Lab wanted to please and would hunt until the sun went down. My Giant Schnauzer wanted to please and was protective of pop. Glad I have a choice!


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

You can give a fresh handler an independent pup, if you recognize it as such, and he'll be able to handle it. It depends on the intelligence of the handler, new or not. He'll ask all the "right" questions and get himself some help. As I see it - no problem.

Some handlers with 30 years "experience" can't handle an independent pup / dog. They're usually the ones who "know it all" and don't want to learn.

The type of dog isn't the problem as I see it but the type of handler is.


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

Gillian, I agree. My first "working" dog purchased for PPD and sport is really independant and the most dominant in the litter and we work together just fine. Though I have had a lifetime of "pet" dogs to learn with, non 1/2 the dog this guy is but they taught me enough.

Had he been my first dog period or first large dog, it may have not gone as smoothly.


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

I think there are varying definitions of the term "independent." What does independent mean to you? 

I like and need an independent worker (a dog that works confidently away from me), but I have no use for a dog who "gives me the finger." I don't have time for that and it serves no useful purpose for the work I do with my dogs. 

The best dog for me would be a very high drive dog that is confident, an independent worker and is easily trained.


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

"Giving the finger", is pretty much what I was talking about. If the dog doesn't always want to be willful toward the handler, not necessarily but possibly involving a contest of authority (which it will lose). When it wants to do what it wants to do with OR without contest, I would say "independent". To me, willful or biddable doesn't translate as "clingy", or unable to work independently, or naturally amiable to everyone it meets. It means the dog really only WANTS what you want.

I don't mind a independantly willed dog really, but if it isn't biddable, how can it work independently without persistent coercion? Then there would be little point of reproducing on that, except when strong civil or fight accompanies it. But that's not a dog for the majority, so the majority of my breeding will not offer that type of dog.


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Daryl - your thoughts are mine exactly (except for the breeding part, only 'cause I'm not a breeder so it doesn't apply to me).


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I'm with Konnie and Daryl. In particular Daryl's comment about biddability not having to mean "clingy".
To me, independant often times means the dog has poor respect or response to the handler. This is a dog that has to be "controlled" as opposed to a dog that is a willing worker. 
Independant can also be a dog that works for the joy of working. Doesn't need treats or praise. Just driven to do it's job. This dog can still have a great connection/biddability with the handler.
Konnie's comment about "High drive, confident, independant worker and traininable" fist my bill. Under the "confident" I want a dog that is "full of himself" and "no fear" attiude about the world.


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

There are many fields of study that attempt to classify or model animal behaviors (animal cognition, comparative psychology, ethology, behavioral ecology, evolutionary psychology, cognitive ethology, cognitive psychology, blah blah blah...). One way this is done, is with use of *ethograms*. _"In ethology, an ethogram is a catalogue of the discrete behaviors typically employed by a species. These behaviors are sufficiently stereotyped that an observer may record the number of such acts, or the amount of time engaged in the behaviours in a time budget."_

Or, from another description, _"An ethogram is a catalog of an animal’s behavioral repetoire, detailing the different forms of behavior that are displayed by an animal. In most cases, it is desirable to create an ethogram in which the categories of behavior are objective, discrete, and do not overlap with each other. Definitions should be clear, detailed and distinguishable from each other.

Ethograms can be as specific or general as the study warrants. A research project dealing strictly with aggressive behavior in chimpanzees can be composed simply of the various forms of aggression displayed by that species. Alternatively, some studies seek to describe all facets of a particular animal's behavior, and the appropriate ethogram will comprehensively categorize any and all behaivors that may occur. "_

Here is an example of an ethogram designed to study Wolf Dominance Behavior 


> Wolf Dominance Behavior
> http://academic.evergreen.edu/s/stidav22/reports/WolfBehaviorReport.pdf
> 
> Observation Codes
> ...


Here is a link to another ethogram on wolves...
http://www.lpzoo.org/ethograms/FRMS/menus/canidsmenu/Wolf_Canids.html

This is the ethogram used in the *Handbook of Applied Dog Behavior and Training*, and as it is put here, as _"Affiliative behavior"_ (of the human-dog bond) at the top of the page, ranges from clingy to uncooperative. Each category of behavior is described as a linear scale from "excesses" to "deficits".

We probably all have a better understanding of our dogs than these ethograms so simply describe, but they can be useful in their own way.


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