# Hips & Elbows



## Harry Keely

How many folks think that vet x-rays dont suffice and arent good enough for breeding compared to OFA and Penn Hip? 

Not doing a poll to avoid folks from hiding behind them.

I for one think that vet x - rays for one suffice for breeding in the eyes if the right vet ( of course if they look good ).

I wonder how many views there will be versus responses..............


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## Joby Becker

Harry Keely said:


> How many folks think that vet x-rays dont suffice and arent good enough for breeding compared to OFA and Penn Hip?
> 
> Not doing a poll to avoid folks from hiding behind them.
> 
> I for one think that vet x - rays for one suffice for breeding in the eyes if the right vet ( of course if they look good ).


I bred my bitch without OFA, and was really really chastised for it by the Dutch Shepherd breed authority C.M., well for that and for not titling the bitch, and for the bitch being vicious and some other things...I offered to email her the xrays, she said she was not qualified to read them, which is fine, but I also said she could show them to her vet, which was still not good enough...

I am fine with breeding, based on MY vets opinion, but I could understand why people would not take my word for it...this last litter I had, not one person asked to see the xrays, the only person to ask to see the xrays, was Mike, when we were trying to get a litter out of her and Carlos...

I will probably still get OFA done, sometime before the next time I try to breed. I still think it is a good idea to certify, and I might not trust someone who showed me an xray, or verbally told me the xray was good. 

But I did not ask to see xrays or certs, when I bought my dog...I trusted the breeder...I am not sure if the female was OFA'd, didnt even ask, I think the male is...

I think it is more for buyers piece of mind, the PROOF factor...I think my vet's opinion is good enough for me, he has never been wrong to the high side with me...one dog that he told me would come back good, came back excellent..if he says the hips are bad, I dont bother sending in at all....but he is very experienced with hip evals...


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## Harry Keely

Joby Becker said:


> I bred my bitch without OFA, and was really really chastised for it by the Dutch Shepherd breed authority C.M., well for that and for not titling the bitch, and for the bitch being vicious and some other things...I offered to email her the xrays, she said she was not qualified to read them, which is fine, but I also said she could show them to her vet, which was still not good enough...
> 
> I am fine with breeding, based on MY vets opinion, but I could understand why people would not take my word for it...this last litter I had, not one person asked to see the xrays, the only person to ask to see the xrays, was Mike, when we were trying to get a litter out of her and Carlos...
> 
> I will probably still get OFA done, sometime before the next time I try to breed. I still think it is a good idea to certify, and I might not trust someone who showed me an xray, or verbally told me the xray was good.
> 
> But I did not ask to see xrays or certs, when I bought my dog...I trusted the breeder...I am not sure if the female was OFA'd, didnt even ask, I think the male is...
> 
> I think it is more for buyers piece of mind, the PROOF factor...I think my vet's opinion is good enough for me, he has never been wrong to the high side with me...one dog that he told me would come back good, came back excellent..if he says the hips are bad, I dont bother sending in at all....but he is very experienced with hip evals...


OK, thanks for responding


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## Maren Bell Jones

I like hard tissue radiology and I would still submit them. It's $40 to submit to OFA for hip/elbow combination if you've already taken them. If you have a 8 pup litter, that's $5 per parent. Is there any serious working dog puppy buyers out there not willing to pay $10 extra to get a second opinion from 3 board certified radiologists from both parents? Anybody?


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## Harry Keely

Maren Bell Jones said:


> I like hard tissue radiology and I would still submit them. It's $40 to submit to OFA for hip/elbow combination if you've already taken them. If you have a 8 pup litter, that's $5 per parent. Is there any serious working dog puppy buyers out there not willing to pay $10 extra to get a second opinion from 3 board certified radiologists from both parents? Anybody?


I have my questions for you our newly appointed vet and forum health lady?


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## Maren Bell Jones

Fire away...


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## Chris McDonald

Maren Bell Jones said:


> I like hard tissue radiology and I would still submit them. It's $40 to submit to OFA for hip/elbow combination if you've already taken them. If you have a 8 pup litter, that's $5 per parent. Is there any serious working dog puppy buyers out there not willing to pay $10 extra to get a second opinion from 3 board certified radiologists from both parents? Anybody?


 
I don’t know anything about this stuff, are you saying that for $40.00 3 different vets to read and dictate reports for two separate areas? So you’re getting 6 reports for $40.00?


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## Harry Keely

1. does it really matter if a knowledgable vet that knows hips of working dogs says there good, are the other two going to go against that one.

2. I am not a vet but have seen enough over time to kinda know whats going to be bad or good, but I am not a vet or expert to giving my blessing on them?

3. So another words a vet that has seen x-rays since the time she has been a vet doesnt declare a viable response on breedable or not breedable because shes not with OFA or pen hipp. ( been a vet for close to twenty years )

4. whats your opinion on OFA, penn hip and why being a new vet?

5. There are known cases of x - rays being resubmitted and other x -rays sent on different dogs to get scores, whats your thoughts and feelings on this? Also it does depends on who gives what score depending on who s looking and which way that borderline call must be made ( mainly my problem ) 

6. I dont agree with purposely trying to force a dogs hipps out of place to see how much play there is on them, whats your feeling as a dog owner and not a vet point of view?

FYI - not trying to be a jerk just asking being that you are our only source of immediate vet info as far as we know you being our only vet here.


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## Maren Bell Jones

Chris McDonald said:


> I don’t know anything about this stuff, are you saying that for $40.00 3 different vets to read and dictate reports for two separate areas? So you’re getting 6 reports for $40.00?


It's $40 to submit one dog's hip and elbow films together to OFA. 3 radiologists look independently at them and the single report comes out of that. So to do both parents, it's $80.


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## Chris McDonald

3 vets look for $40.00? Harry you cant complain about that, its border line volunteer. I agree that I think most vets can give you a good read but I guess if you want to say the OFA thing you cant beat it


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## Harry Keely

Chris McDonald said:


> 3 vets look for $40.00? Harry you cant complain about that, its border line volunteer. I agree that I think most vets can give you a good read but I guess if you want to say the OFA thing you cant beat it


I dont despise them and do like them at the same time but, not sure if I trust them, if that makes sense:-k


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## Chris McDonald

Id be surprised if they even look at them for that price. Just say there wrong if the report comes back bad


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## Terrasita Cuffie

For a performance purpose, if I just want to look, its fine for me and the vet to eyeball them. I can look at hip x-rays but haven't seen enough elbow films. As a breeder and buyer, I want to see an OFA paper trail. 


Terrasita


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## Harry Keely

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> For a performance purpose, if I just want to look, its fine for me and the vet to eyeball them. I can look at hip x-rays but haven't seen enough elbow films. As a breeder and buyer, I want to see an OFA paper trail.
> 
> 
> Terrasita


Same here I have seen plenty of hips but not a expert by no means because I dont have DR in front of my name and elbows I still feel confortable on but would defently defently always ask for a non biased opinion, either way my vet always makes the decisions. I have to admit though I have gotten pretty decent at final results when it comes to looking at them.


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## Harry Keely

Chris McDonald said:


> Id be surprised if they even look at them for that price. Just say there wrong if the report comes back bad


Oh I'm sure there are wacko dos that have said that and still done the wrong moral thing. I am sure it happens alot more than we are aware of.:roll:


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## Maren Bell Jones

Harry Keely said:


> 1. does it really matter if a knowledgable vet that knows hips of working dogs says there good, are the other two going to go against that one.


Well, it's more than being a "knowledgeable" vet. The vets who read for OFA are board certified veterinary radiologists. Meaning they have done a year long internship after vet school and then a 3 year residency program only in radiology after that where they learn the specialized nitty gritty of radiology, ultrasounds, CT and MRI scans, and so on. They'll know much more than me. I'm confident in what I know, but I'm also confident in what I don't know, so I definitely defer to a radiologist's opinion over my own.



> 2. I am not a vet but have seen enough over time to kinda know whats going to be bad or good, but I am not a vet or expert to giving my blessing on them?


I'm not exactly sure what your question is, but it's a non-financially interested third party expert opinion. That's much better than "my dog's hips are normal, my vet said so!" *long slow wink* to the puppy buyers.



> 3. So another words a vet that has seen x-rays since the time she has been a vet doesnt declare a viable response on breedable or not breedable because shes not with OFA or pen hipp. ( been a vet for close to twenty years )


Like I said, I prefer to defer to an expert third party who is not financially interested in the breeding. Plus it's a heck of a good deal for 3 radiologists to look at them for the second opinion. If you're spending a couple hundred on radiographs with the idea of helping ensure the health of your breed, just charge a few extra bucks per pup to make it more official. Not only that, OFA is very very helpful for research on our dog breeds and seeing breed trends over time. 



> 4. whats your opinion on OFA, penn hip and why being a new vet?


OFA's headquarters are in my town, so I'm more familiar with it. Eventually if I have a mortar and brick practice and do more rehab, I'd take the certification class to do PennHip as well. It's currently like $1500, so not a small investment of time, money, and equipment. I do like the Penn Hip system though. I'd like to get my own dog done with Penn Hip though just cause I'm curious (he's OFA good, normal elbows). 



> 5. There are known cases of x - rays being resubmitted and other x -rays sent on different dogs to get scores, whats your thoughts and feelings on this? Also it does depends on who gives what score depending on who s looking and which way that borderline call must be made ( mainly my problem )


I think it's unethical and completely defeats the purpose of bettering the breed for people to submit false radiographs. Working dog breeders in particular only shoot themselves in the foot when they do this kind of thing. They should be earnestly wanting to represent the dog as honestly as possible, not trying to squeak by and pass. As I mentioned, I'd eventually like to own a facility designed especially for working and performance dogs. So if someone wanted hip/elbow radiographs and didn't want to submit them if they looked "bad" but wanted them submitted if they looked "good," too bad. Sorry, not sympathetic to that. I will also reserve the right that it will be me, not the owner, to submit the films (I think Penn Hip requires this, but OFA does not). If someone doesn't like it, they can go elsewhere since I want to deal with ethical breeders anyways.



> 6. I dont agree with purposely trying to force a dogs hipps out of place to see how much play there is on them, whats your feeling as a dog owner and not a vet point of view?


I wouldn't purposely force them out of joint either, as I am just interested in seeing an accurate picture. 



> FYI - not trying to be a jerk just asking being that you are our only source of immediate vet info as far as we know you being our only vet here.


Gina P. is the other vet who posts frequently on here. She's a board certified cardiologist. I will certainly defer to her on all things cardio as that's not my strong point. :-D We are very lucky to have her.


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## Maren Bell Jones

Chris McDonald said:


> 3 vets look for $40.00? Harry you cant complain about that, its border line volunteer. I agree that I think most vets can give you a good read but I guess if you want to say the OFA thing you cant beat it


Remember that OFA is also a non-profit and since they sponsor a large amount of research on canine diseases, it helps if they have a bigger pool of data to draw from by keeping their fees low.


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## Chris McDonald

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Remember that OFA is also a non-profit and since they sponsor a large amount of research on canine diseases, it helps if they have a bigger pool of data to draw from by keeping their fees low.


Didn’t know, makes more sense now. Just kinda need to keep the lights on


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## Harry Keely

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Remember that OFA is also a non-profit and since they sponsor a large amount of research on canine diseases, it helps if they have a bigger pool of data to draw from by keeping their fees low.


Not saying this sarcastically ,so please dont take it that way, this is just a generalization statement, but dis you guys know that some of the highest paid salaries in this country are made by the non - profit orgs, just thought I throw that out there for s**t and giggles as a piece of unkown knowledge.


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## Harry Keely

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Well, it's more than being a "knowledgeable" vet. The vets who read for OFA are board certified veterinary radiologists. Meaning they have done a year long internship after vet school and then a 3 year residency program only in radiology after that where they learn the specialized nitty gritty of radiology, ultrasounds, CT and MRI scans, and so on. They'll know much more than me. I'm confident in what I know, but I'm also confident in what I don't know, so I definitely defer to a radiologist's opinion over my own.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not exactly sure what your question is, but it's a non-financially interested third party expert opinion. That's much better than "my dog's hips are normal, my vet said so!" *long slow wink* to the puppy buyers.
> 
> 
> 
> Like I said, I prefer to defer to an expert third party who is not financially interested in the breeding. Plus it's a heck of a good deal for 3 radiologists to look at them for the second opinion. If you're spending a couple hundred on radiographs with the idea of helping ensure the health of your breed, just charge a few extra bucks per pup to make it more official. Not only that, OFA is very very helpful for research on our dog breeds and seeing breed trends over time.
> 
> 
> 
> OFA's headquarters are in my town, so I'm more familiar with it. Eventually if I have a mortar and brick practice and do more rehab, I'd take the certification class to do PennHip as well. It's currently like $1500, so not a small investment of time, money, and equipment. I do like the Penn Hip system though. I'd like to get my own dog done with Penn Hip though just cause I'm curious (he's OFA good, normal elbows).
> 
> 
> 
> I think it's unethical and completely defeats the purpose of bettering the breed for people to submit false radiographs. Working dog breeders in particular only shoot themselves in the foot when they do this kind of thing. They should be earnestly wanting to represent the dog as honestly as possible, not trying to squeak by and pass. As I mentioned, I'd eventually like to own a facility designed especially for working and performance dogs. So if someone wanted hip/elbow radiographs and didn't want to submit them if they looked "bad" but wanted them submitted if they looked "good," too bad. Sorry, not sympathetic to that. I will also reserve the right that it will be me, not the owner, to submit the films (I think Penn Hip requires this, but OFA does not). If someone doesn't like it, they can go elsewhere since I want to deal with ethical breeders anyways.
> 
> 
> 
> I wouldn't purposely force them out of joint either, as I am just interested in seeing an accurate picture.
> 
> 
> 
> Gina P. is the other vet who posts frequently on here. She's a board certified cardiologist. I will certainly defer to her on all things cardio as that's not my strong point. :-D We are very lucky to have her.


 
*1. see your point of view almost to a full extent*

*2. agree was just saying have seen plenty, but still leave it to a professional*

*3. agree but still dont trust it or there system 100% it has holes that folks have figured out.*

*4. wish you luck on OFA, dislike and disagree on the Penn hip *

*5. my BIGGEST problem with OFA*

*6. agree 1005 with ya I guess, thanks for the Gina P. part didn't know of her*

*Sorry for some reason it has taken away the numbers*


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## Joby Becker

Harry Keely said:


> Not saying this sarcastically ,so please dont take it that way, this is just a generalization statement, but dis you guys know that some of the highest paid salaries in this country are made by the non - profit orgs, just thought I throw that out there for s**t and giggles as a piece of unkown knowledge.


I am not including the OFA in this..

BUT, I hear the NON-PROFIT tossed around a LOT, and the truth is, a non-profit means, the business does not make or show a profit, they still can pay huge salaries, give enormous benefits, take trips, have business lunches and outings, and host lavish fundraisers, advertise, and spend money on exorbitant items, and real estate, and pay lobbyists, if that is their thing...

My bosses ex-wife worked for the Johnson Foundation, a non-profit.

here is the website..
http://www.johnsonfdn.org/

She was basically a glorified secretary with a title and made over 150,000 per year, and her boss made over 300,000 per year...

Non-profit equals the abilty to get tax breaks, and to take donations if they get the right filing done, it does not mean they spend the money wisely or correctly...


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## Harry Keely

Joby Becker said:


> I am not including the OFA in this..
> 
> BUT, I hear the NON-PROFIT tossed around a LOT, and the truth is, a non-profit means, the business does not make or show a profit, they still can pay huge salaries, give enormous benefits, take trips, have business lunches and outings, and host lavish fundraisers, advertise, and spend money on exorbitant items, and real estate, and pay lobbyists, if that is their thing...
> 
> My bosses ex-wife worked for the Johnson Foundation, a non-profit.
> 
> here is the website..
> http://www.johnsonfdn.org/
> 
> She was basically a glorified secretary with a title and made over 150,000 per year, and her boss made over 300,000 per year...
> 
> Non-profit equals the abilty to get tax breaks, and to take donations if they get the right filing done, it does not mean they spend the money wisely or correctly...


:lol: one of many many out there unfortunately


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## Chris McDonald

Joby Becker said:


> I am not including the OFA in this..
> 
> 
> Non-profit equals the abilty to get tax breaks, and to take donations if they get the right filing done, it does not mean they spend the money wisely or correctly...


Its seems like a fair price anyway you want to look at it


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## James Downey

I want the hips and elbows done OFA or PENN don't care which one. I use OFA for my dogs, simply because that seems to be industry standard. PENN seems to be what people do, when OFA tells them what they do not want to hear...Not that they get better results from PENN but it's funnny how quick people go from OFA is great to OFA don't know shit. HAHA.

But anyway, I tried to use a stud. the hips were not done. I asked if he would get them done. I even offered to pay for them. He stated he had radiographs for me to review and that he did not believe in OFA. Now, I got suspicious when they did not believe in OFA But had radiographs taken of the hips. because obviously thinks the x-rays can tell you something. THen he said, I had them done more than once over the course of a couple of years....than came something that I do not believe is medically possible. He siad, the hips improved. Now there are few red flags right there. I passed. I thought of something later about the x-rays he has....how do I know those xrays are actually from the dog? And if you had the x-rays taken, You believe they show something, why not send them in to the people who's sole purpose is to read them?


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## Maren Bell Jones

James Downey said:


> I want the hips and elbows done OFA or PENN don't care which one. I use OFA for my dogs, simply because that seems to be industry standard. PENN seems to be what people do, when OFA tells them what they do not want to hear...Not that they get better results from PENN but it's funnny how quick people go from OFA is great to OFA don't know shit. HAHA.


Yes and no. You can actually do both on one set, since both has the dog position in full extension. I just found there's a vet within about 30 miles of me who does Penn Hip, so because I had my dog's hips evaluated at 2 years for OFA, I am curious to see what they look like at not quite 5 years for Penn Hip. If they have digital radiographs, I'll post the two as a comparison.



> But anyway, I tried to use a stud. the hips were not done. I asked if he would get them done. I even offered to pay for them. He stated he had radiographs for me to review and that he did not believe in OFA. Now, I got suspicious when they did not believe in OFA But had radiographs taken of the hips. because obviously thinks the x-rays can tell you something. THen he said, I had them done more than once over the course of a couple of years....than came something that I do not believe is medically possible. He siad, the hips improved. Now there are few red flags right there. I passed. I thought of something later about the x-rays he has....how do I know those xrays are actually from the dog? And if you had the x-rays taken, You believe they show something, why not send them in to the people who's sole purpose is to read them?


That does sound rather shady... :-k


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## James Downey

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Yes and no. You can actually do both on one set, since both has the dog position in full extension. I just found there's a vet within about 30 miles of me who does Penn Hip, so because I had my dog's hips evaluated at 2 years for OFA, I am curious to see what they look like at not quite 5 years for Penn Hip. If they have digital radiographs, I'll post the two as a comparison.
> 
> 
> 
> That does sound rather shady... :-k


 
Maren bell...I am sorry, I am not sure what your saying "yes and no" to?


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## Terrasita Cuffie

James Downey said:


> I want the hips and elbows done OFA or PENN don't care which one. I use OFA for my dogs, simply because that seems to be industry standard. PENN seems to be what people do, when OFA tells them what they do not want to hear...
> 
> *Amen.*
> 
> Not that they get better results from PENN but it's funnny how quick people go from OFA is great to OFA don't know shit. HAHA.
> 
> *But they can manipulate the information for people who don't really understand what their pennhip report is saying and what it isn't saying.*
> 
> But anyway, I tried to use a stud. the hips were not done. I asked if he would get them done. I even offered to pay for them. He stated he had radiographs for me to review and that he did not believe in OFA. Now, I got suspicious when they did not believe in OFA But had radiographs taken of the hips. because obviously thinks the x-rays can tell you something. THen he said, I had them done more than once over the course of a couple of years....than came something that I do not believe is medically possible. He siad, the hips improved. Now there are few red flags right there. I passed. I thought of something later about the x-rays he has....how do I know those xrays are actually from the dog? And if you had the x-rays taken, You believe they show something, why not send them in to the people who's sole purpose is to read them?


*Yep run fast and run quick.*


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## Selena van Leeuwen

Unfortunally only pedigreed dogs over here can get an official reading on the x rays. The crosses dogs are x rayed, and a the reading of some very knowledging (sp) vets are excepted in KNPV world. 
I saw a lot of x rays and can read them pretty accurate, but I aint a vet.


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## Sara Waters

My experience is with elbows having had 2 dogs from similar lines with ED. After my first experience I tracked down a breeder who had started getting her dogs elbows and hips x-rayed (very rare among cattle dog breeders where I live). She got her local vet to take them and read them. He is an reletively experienced vet.

Anyway my pup ended up with ED so I rang the breeder. I had noticed the sires feet had a slightly outward turn to them. The breeder had him done by a specialist orthopedic vet and his hunch was the dog had ED due to his exam and his experience with elbow xrays although it was very hard to pick even for him. Further scans revealed ED and the breeder took him out of her program.

My first dog was 2 yo when I wasnt happy with her gait and had her xrayed, the local vet said no problems with her elbows eventually I was still not happy with her gait and had her done by an orthopedic vet who I know well. The xrays were pretty clear but the ortho vet decided there was potentially something slightly off, a very very faint lack of clarity that made him suspicious. A CT scan revealed a total separation of the coronoid process. It was stable and hence the xrays were seemingly clear and would likely have been missed by vets without a stack of experience with elbow xrays.

Elbows are notoriously difficult due to the coronoid process being hidden from view on an xray and the vet is usally looking for signs of arthritic changes which was only minimal in my dog with the complete separation of the coronoid process.


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## Harry Keely

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> Unfortunally only pedigreed dogs over here can get an official reading on the x rays. The crosses dogs are x rayed, and a the reading of some very knowledging (sp) vets are excepted in KNPV world.
> I saw a lot of x rays and can read them pretty accurate, but I aint a vet.


I guess our dogs are below breeding standards being that you have crosses and people like me buy and have bred these crosses](*,), and sold them to govt agencies, I guess our militarys, police departments and other federal agencies have sub standard dogs compared to a AKC - titled - OFA or Pennhip dog ( not knocking these dogs, just scratching my head wondering ) :lol:


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## andreas broqvist

I realy downt se why you wuld not X-ray your dog and send it in.
I have had this discution with bulldog peopel for years and they always come up with dum awnser like I run my dog hard and bad hips will show. 
NO they will not always show, And you will not se the big picture if you do not x-ray many dogs ither. 

To say its about the cost is just realy ridiculuse. If you cant aford that cost on you dog you shuld probobly stoop breeding altogether....

We can not registarte pups from working dogs like GSDs with hips parents that have worst than "B" OFA good. The databas that I posted erlyer on the thread about the temprament test also have Hips and Elbows so you can check complete liters and dogs i many many generations back.

We can se if ouer dogs % gets better ore worst. You can se If a male produces good, bad ore avrage. 

I send in al my dogs hips to both SKK "like OFA" and PenHipp. 
To some this might be news  But ther is a difrens! They test difrent things. OFA/SKK test the dept of the hip socet and how mutch its cover the hip. PenHipp mesure the gap between the Socet and the bone. Its so litle money so why downt do it. I cant realy se no defens. 

We also have contract to ouer pupy buyer that they have to x-ray and send the result in befor the dog is 24 month.
Many working breed kennels have hip X-rays included in ther prise so the buyer of the pup dosent even pay for the x-ray.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

andreas broqvist said:


> I realy downt se why you wuld not X-ray your dog and send it in.
> 
> We can not registarte pups from working dogs like GSDs with hips parents that have worst than "B" OFA good.


Andreas,

Are you referring to an FCI "B" rating? If so, OFA considers B-1 the equivalent to an OFA Fair and a B-2 the equivalent of an OFA Borderline.

Scroll down to the bottom for the chart: http://www.offa.org/hd_grades.html

Terrasita


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Sara Waters said:


> My experience is with elbows having had 2 dogs from similar lines with ED. After my first experience I tracked down a breeder who had started getting her dogs elbows and hips x-rayed (very rare among cattle dog breeders where I live). She got her local vet to take them and read them. He is an reletively experienced vet.
> 
> Anyway my pup ended up with ED so I rang the breeder. I had noticed the sires feet had a slightly outward turn to them. The breeder had him done by a specialist orthopedic vet and his hunch was the dog had ED due to his exam and his experience with elbow xrays although it was very hard to pick even for him. Further scans revealed ED and the breeder took him out of her program.
> 
> My first dog was 2 yo when I wasnt happy with her gait and had her xrayed, the local vet said no problems with her elbows eventually I was still not happy with her gait and had her done by an orthopedic vet who I know well. The xrays were pretty clear but the ortho vet decided there was potentially something slightly off, a very very faint lack of clarity that made him suspicious. A CT scan revealed a total separation of the coronoid process. It was stable and hence the xrays were seemingly clear and would likely have been missed by vets without a stack of experience with elbow xrays.
> 
> Elbows are notoriously difficult due to the coronoid process being hidden from view on an xray and the vet is usally looking for signs of arthritic changes which was only minimal in my dog with the complete separation of the coronoid process.



This is my problem with the SV system. Initially here, OFA was certifying elbows at 1 year. They missed a lot of DJD I type of dogs. In the beginning, they were catching the UAPs [ununited anconeal process] but missing FCP related DJD with the 1 year certifications. Dogs that were certified at 1 year were later classified as dysplastic. My vet explained that the DJD was most likely attributed to FCP [fragmented coronoid process] which like you said doesn't show up on an x-ray. The coronoid process develops between 4-10 months. So it can be problematic but until the related DJD shows up on an x-ray, it usually isn't diagnosed as such. Interesting about the CT scan as a diagnostic option. I hadn't heard that mentioned. As I've said before, I know of one recent OFA DJD I that the SV supposedly classified as fast normal. As long as you allow 1 year certifications, you are not making any headway on reducing dysplasia in the gene pool. Then there is the problem of the number of fast normals and noch zuchs. I looked at the pedigree on a dog that Oluwatobi recently posted and couldn't believe the number of noch zuchs in the sire half of the pedigree.

T


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## Sara Waters

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> This is my problem with the SV system. Initially here, OFA was certifying elbows at 1 year. They missed a lot of DJD I type of dogs. In the beginning, they were catching the UAPs [ununited anconeal process] but missing FCP related DJD with the 1 year certifications. Dogs that were certified at 1 year were later classified as dysplastic. My vet explained that the DJD was most likely attributed to FCP [fragmented coronoid process] which like you said doesn't show up on an x-ray. The coronoid process develops between 4-10 months. So it can be problematic but until the related DJD shows up on an x-ray, it usually isn't diagnosed as such. Interesting about the CT scan as a diagnostic option. I hadn't heard that mentioned. As I've said before, I know of one recent OFA DJD I that the SV supposedly classified as fast normal. As long as you allow 1 year certifications, you are not making any headway on reducing dysplasia in the gene pool. Then there is the problem of the number of fast normals and noch zuchs. I looked at the pedigree on a dog that Oluwatobi recently posted and couldn't believe the number of noch zuchs in the sire half of the pedigree.
> 
> T


My dog showed some slight sporadic limping at 5 months old. Xrays and CTscans clear although again my ortho had a hunch from his physical exam. Waited till 9 months and she had only limped very occasionally. Again xrays clear. However CT scan showed some very minor remodelling had occurred from the last scan but nothing absolutely conclusive. Decided to go in surgically and found lesions on the cartilage of the CP in both elbows which were removed. No sign of any joint damage. 

The CT scan is usefull where there are fractures in the bone. Less usefull where the lesions and fractures are in the cartilage, but it did pick up the slight remodelling of the joint that was happening on comparison of the 2 sets of scans. With my dog where the fracture was in the bone it was totally clear on the CT scan. FCP does account for much of ED and is a real tricky one to diagnose at times.


----------



## susan tuck

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Andreas,
> 
> Are you referring to an FCI "B" rating? If so, OFA considers B-1 the equivalent to an OFA Fair and a B-2 the equivalent of an OFA Borderline.
> 
> Scroll down to the bottom for the chart: http://www.offa.org/hd_grades.html
> 
> Terrasita


Hi Terrasita: Sweden has it's own rating system.


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## Joby Becker

We can not registarte pups from working dogs like GSDs with hips parents that have worst than "B" OFA good.

DO you have something called OFA there??? 

Or do you mean worse than "B" *OR *OFA good, or are you saying B=OFA good???


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## Terrasita Cuffie

susan tuck said:


> Hi Terrasita: Sweden has it's own rating system.


Ohhhh, okay, that's why I asked. My impression of Sweden is that they have moved in a better direction so I was concerned about that. Thanks!

T


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## andreas broqvist

Terrasita.
We registrate ouer score with FCI but they are harder then the other one you posted. We do not have a1 and a2, b1 and b2. We only have A, B, C, D, E.
À german B wuld probobly be a C. We have had problem with imported GSDs that they have free hips with ther system and in ouers they get C. Ore they have À hips but produces realy bad hips.
In ouer system we can check hips in many generations, not only patents, granparent and so on but also ther complete liters. 

So i think what i wrote is prety right.
À= exelent
B= god
Ore maby 

But I Will test this on My last liter and se If we can send the plates to OFA also then we have al 3 systems and can check.
I Will also talk to My friend breeding GSDs and Mali if we just for Fun can send in one ore 2 of ther liters x-rays to OFA. Whats the price? 

Joby. He he i tyred to say that we cant registrate pups from parentes with lower scores than OFA good witsh is ecual to à B rating in ouer system


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## andreas broqvist

Dogs that are X rayd her in Sweden that got à C hip has been sent to belgium ore germany and goten an À rating in ther system.

We have seen thrue the years that if you breed on dogs with C ore less you Will not better the hips scores.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Thanks for the clarification Andreas. For OFA information, I'd go to their site: http://www.offa.org.

Terrasita


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## brad robert

Hip and elbow xrays are the biggest PITFA.

Over here at the moment there is a six month wait on hip scores and people are still breeding and selling pups for top dollar from parents who's scores are still waiting to come back.From memory to register pups from the dogs the dogs(parents) has to have hip scores under a 20 that is how it is rated from 0-20 over twenty you cant register pups from that dog.And then when they dont pass that rating people go to another registry that puts the high score on the papers but still lets the dog be used for breeding.


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## andreas broqvist

SKK/FCI has monopol in Sweden. For me that is bad becaus i have à NKC breed. But for the working dogs like Mali and GSD this is good becaus they cant do like that, they cant registrate the dogs in à nother registry. If they do the breed is seen as à mix and he can not complete in the working venues.
As bad this is for me i still kind of like it, I downt know exactly but its like 4-5 difrent regestrys for bulldoggs, al with difrent rules. That is not good for any breed, ther realy are no rules ore gole for the breed, if you downt like the rules you just change regestry. 

The way we have it the org can more ore less force peopel to folow the minimum rules, witch realy is nothing if you want good helty dogs.


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## Sara Waters

brad robert said:


> Hip and elbow xrays are the biggest PITFA.
> 
> Over here at the moment there is a six month wait on hip scores and people are still breeding and selling pups for top dollar from parents who's scores are still waiting to come back.From memory to register pups from the dogs the dogs(parents) has to have hip scores under a 20 that is how it is rated from 0-20 over twenty you cant register pups from that dog.And then when they dont pass that rating people go to another registry that puts the high score on the papers but still lets the dog be used for breeding.


Brad I thought that only the ANKC registry had certain rules and only for certain high risk breeds. You must be talking about one of those breeds.

Very few breeders score cattle dogs and they are all registerable, mine is on the ANKC limited register and her parents were not hip or elbow scored officially.

My working dogs are all on different working registers (working kelpie council, WSDA and working koolie registers and none of them come from hip or elbow scored parents, in fact very few working sheepdog breeders do their dogs.


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## susan tuck

Here is an informal comparison chart of some International Hip Ratings:

http://malinut.com/ref/library/hips/


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## andreas broqvist

The swedish part is not updated. We do not have thos Values. But i think the list is right. We can only breed on dogs that have the first 2 values. "working breeds, mastifs, english bulldog and so on does as they want"


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## susan tuck

Hi Andreas: I thought the chart was in line with what you were saying, as far as FCI rating A1 & A2 and OFA E & G being the equivalent of what Sweden would consider acceptable for breeding? Or am I confused?


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## andreas broqvist

No no the chart is right  you got it right as you wrote now.

Just that we havent cald the values what the chart cal them for many many years. Atleast 10 years. Exept that its right on  

Wery nice list. 
So if you look at that its prety clear why we have good hip rating in Sweden.


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## andreas broqvist

One more thing, as a unwriten rule the working breed breeders that take hips seriesly do not breed on dogs even if they have A ore B hipps if the dog has many siblings with C ore D hips.


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## Steve Groen

OFA's better than nothing. No more. No less.

As for elbows, my girl was certified with bilateral DJD Grade 1 last year (medial coronoid disease). She has no clinical signs at four years of age. Her half sister was certified with unilateral DJD Grade 1 a couple of years ago, and last year she was re-certified as having normal elbows. Somebody made a mistake? I think OFA certs for elbows are probably good indicators, but pictures are subject to manipulation.

As for hips, my girl's were certified as good. However, the examining vet, who I trust, told me that OFA would probably designate them excellent or good, even though there was some flex. (He was right: OFA good.) He said that's the problem with OFA; only palpation gives the true story.

In light of the above, regarding your question whether you would trust a breeder who, for example, posts hip X-rays at a website rather than some standardized form of certification at a minimum, if reading X-rays were the whole story, as my vet said, OFA would have eradicated hip dysplasia years ago.

Steve Groen


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## Kadi Thingvall

I prefer an OFA or Pennhip certification just because it means board cerified vets who spend a lot of time looking at xrays looked at them and graded them. That said I will admit I've xrayed a few dogs over the years who's xrays I never sent to OFA, not because I was concerned about the results but because I just never got around to it, those xrays are still stacked on a shelf in their big envelopes. Most of those dogs were never bred though, and I think all of the xrays have been scanned and put on the website.

I've had vets tell me a dog would pass OFA when I could see the DJD changes myself, and sure enough the dog came back dysplastic in that hip.

If there isn't an OFA or PennHip certification, then I want to see the xrays posted. I see a lot of websites that claim "xrayed normal" but there aren't any xrays actually posted on the site, or any other actual proof the dog was xrayed at all. Or that it isn't a case like the vet I mentioned previously, who said "they look fine to me" but they really aren't. Post them, let people see what they look like and go from there.


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## brad robert

Sara Waters said:


> Brad I thought that only the ANKC registry had certain rules and only for certain high risk breeds. You must be talking about one of those breeds.
> 
> Very few breeders score cattle dogs and they are all registerable, mine is on the ANKC limited register and her parents were not hip or elbow scored officially.
> 
> My working dogs are all on different working registers (working kelpie council, WSDA and working koolie registers and none of them come from hip or elbow scored parents, in fact very few working sheepdog breeders do their dogs.


Yeah thats it sara! Thats who "most" register there gsd's , rotts etc with i believe.

I think its really good that the sheepdog people dont have to do it as they are obviously very sound health wise.


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

susan tuck said:


> Here is an informal comparison chart of some International Hip Ratings:
> 
> http://malinut.com/ref/library/hips/


I wonder what the source is for the chart. It doesn't encompass the SV Noch Zuch which OFA has as a equivalent of FCI "C" indicating mild dysplasia. OFA considers the SV "Fast Normal" the equivalent of B2--Borderline.

Andreas, does you friend that breeds GSDs have a website?

Terrasita


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## andreas broqvist

brad robert said:


> Yeah thats it sara! Thats who "most" register there gsd's , rotts etc with i believe.
> 
> I think its really good that the sheepdog people dont have to do it as they are obviously very sound health wise.


Its tha same argument the Pitbull and Bulldog peopel have, If the can work they are helthy....

How do you know a dog is helthy if you never check???


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## andreas broqvist

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> I wonder what the source is for the chart. It doesn't encompass the SV Noch Zuch which OFA has as a equivalent of FCI "C" indicating mild dysplasia. OFA considers the SV "Fast Normal" the equivalent of B2--Borderline.
> 
> Andreas, does you friend that breeds GSDs have a website?
> 
> Terrasita


Yes http://www.krokasmeden.com/ But it is in swedish


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## Terrasita Cuffie

andreas broqvist said:


> Its tha same argument the Pitbull and Bulldog peopel have, If the can work they are helthy....
> 
> How do you know a dog is helthy if you never check???


Well, they never say how long they can work either. Dogs can remain asymptomatic just long enough to title them out. Then they can retire them and move on to the next one. 

T


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## Terrasita Cuffie

andreas broqvist said:


> Yes http://www.krokasmeden.com/ But it is in swedish


Thanks!! Lets see what google translate can do with it.

T


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## brad robert

andreas broqvist said:


> Its tha same argument the Pitbull and Bulldog peopel have, If the can work they are helthy....
> 
> How do you know a dog is helthy if you never check???


I see your point to some extent but i never have seen one pitbull with bad hips its not even a thing breeders talk about.

Am Bulldogs different story.

JMO but farmers here will quickly cull any dog that does not have the physical qualities to keep up and if it has bone issues it simply wont last so why in the hell would they check hips when for decades the weak are culled this is a whole show dog issue who would give shit when the dog works sheep or cattle for over ten years no problems why go looking for problems when its not even an issue in the dog doing his work


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## Maren Bell Jones

Brad, this is why you go looking: 50% of dogs with hip dysplasia on radiographs (x-rays) show no clinical signs on radiological diagnosis. Meaning their owners didn't know they had it. These dogs, if not eliminated from the breeding gene pool, are passing this on and contributing to the problem. If you don't screen, you won't find and you won't improve. See for yourself on the OFA site: 

-one third of submitted American bulldogs have hip dysplasia
-one fourth of submitted American pit bull/Staffordshire terriers have hip dysplasia. 

http://www.offa.org/stats_hip.html

And these are just submitted numbers, not the even the ones where they look bad and owners elect not to submit (which skews the data). So the true numbers are likely higher.


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## Joby Becker

brad robert said:


> I see your point to some extent but i never have seen one pitbull with bad hips its not even a thing breeders talk about.
> 
> Am Bulldogs different story.
> 
> JMO but farmers here will quickly cull any dog that does not have the physical qualities to keep up and if it has bone issues it simply wont last so why in the hell would they check hips when for decades the weak are culled this is a whole show dog issue who would give shit when the dog works sheep or cattle for over ten years no problems why go looking for problems when its not even an issue in the dog doing his work


I would say if you are talking about what I would consider a pitbull, there would be very few by % that have bad hips...

who knows about the "pitbull" population these days...
these days putbulls can be 4 ft long 27 inches tall and over 110 lb...


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## kenneth roth

Harry Keely said:


> How many folks think that vet x-rays dont suffice and arent good enough for breeding compared to OFA and Penn Hip?
> 
> Not doing a poll to avoid folks from hiding behind them.
> 
> I for one think that vet x - rays for one suffice for breeding in the eyes if the right vet ( of course if they look good ).
> 
> I wonder how many views there will be versus responses..............


 would it be easyer to do a Penhip test then send it in?


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## andreas broqvist

Joby Becker said:


> I would say if you are talking about what I would consider a pitbull, there would be very few by % that have bad hips...
> 
> who knows about the "pitbull" population these days...
> these days putbulls can be 4 ft long 27 inches tall and over 110 lb...


I have been into pitbulls for almost 15 years. Fastlane/game pits ore what you Will cal it "chinaman/redboy/frisco/bullyson/toombstone/aligator/Bolio and many mor lines" and they do have problems. Its not BIG like in show GSDs but they are ther. Also skin, canser, temp and many more problems. If most of them downt pass 5 years and you downt test for helth how wuld you know if they are helthy.... 

If i beleve I can fly but never fail becuas i downt try it, does that meen I can fly ??  

Ouer bulldoggs are from hoglines and thos dogs was testet hard. But we shose to base ouer dogs on dogs that is atleast somewhat hip tested. We have overal prety good hip status in thos dogs. The dogs that we got from lines that is workt 
As hard but not tested, helth is based on "if they can work in the Woods they are helthy" we have put down and we are not using any more. Bad hips and even the good ones produse bad hips. Nice tempramen thoug.


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## andreas broqvist

I can se the point if à farmer just breed his own dogs for his own use, he downt test for helt, temp ore registrate the dogs. He just breed what works for him and uses them himself. Then ok, but if you breed à working breed, registrate the dog and SELL the dogs you have no excuse.


----------



## brad robert

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Brad, this is why you go looking: 50% of dogs with hip dysplasia on radiographs (x-rays) show no clinical signs on radiological diagnosis. Meaning their owners didn't know they had it. These dogs, if not eliminated from the breeding gene pool, are passing this on and contributing to the problem. If you don't screen, you won't find and you won't improve. See for yourself on the OFA site:
> 
> -one third of submitted American bulldogs have hip dysplasia
> -one fourth of submitted American pit bull/Staffordshire terriers have hip dysplasia.
> 
> http://www.offa.org/stats_hip.html
> 
> And these are just submitted numbers, not the even the ones where they look bad and owners elect not to submit (which skews the data). So the true numbers are likely higher.


Maren i completely respect your views.To be honest i dont have to go looking after having them on and of for over 20 years i know a thing or two about them.But in a pitbulls working life what ever that might be HD hardly ever shows its self and if it did i would seriously question the quality of blood.Pitbull and amstaff numbers shown do not reflect real pitbulls because real pitbulls are never xrayed.If something never shows its self in a working life or capacity why would you check for it.


----------



## brad robert

andreas broqvist said:


> I have been into pitbulls for almost 15 years. Fastlane/game pits ore what you Will cal it "chinaman/redboy/frisco/bullyson/toombstone/aligator/Bolio and many mor lines" and they do have problems. Its not BIG like in show GSDs but they are ther. Also skin, canser, temp and many more problems. If most of them downt pass 5 years and you downt test for helth how wuld you know if they are helthy....
> 
> If i beleve I can fly but never fail becuas i downt try it, does that meen I can fly ??
> 
> Ouer bulldoggs are from hoglines and thos dogs was testet hard. But we shose to base ouer dogs on dogs that is atleast somewhat hip tested. We have overal prety good hip status in thos dogs. The dogs that we got from lines that is workt
> As hard but not tested, helth is based on "if they can work in the Woods they are helthy" we have put down and we are not using any m re. Bad hips and even the good ones produse bad hips. Nice tempramen thoug.


Honestly the numbers are so small you would seriously be nuts to xray them.Joby is correct on the numbers i believe.


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## andreas broqvist

How wuld you know that hes corect, you have no numbers to base it on. We do x-ryas on many of the pitbulls her. And yes the numbers are prety low but ther are still thos with realy bad hips, but they do not show it.


----------



## brad robert

andreas broqvist said:


> How wuld you know that hes corect, you have no numbers to base it on. We do x-ryas on many of the pitbulls her. And yes the numbers are prety low but ther are still thos with realy bad hips, but they do not show it.


really easy actually because he said they are low i agree and you yourself said they are too.simple

Ch Jeep might have had the worse hips in the world but did it stop him did his owners care.im sorry but i find this silly checking APBT for HD lol.

I have seen genetic faults but not HD.


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## andreas broqvist

I have seen dogs with bad hips, so it does exsist. But I realy do not Care, they can do what they want. The only sad thing is I feel that you se more and more APBT with bad temperament, afraid of peopel, aggressive to strangers and realy only good fore one thing. 10 years ago you got à better overall dog...


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## Joby Becker

I wonder what DON TURNIPSEED's view on hip xrays and OFA are...

He has probably produced more puppies than anyone else on here...


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## Maren Bell Jones

brad robert said:


> Honestly the numbers are so small you would seriously be nuts to xray them.Joby is correct on the numbers i believe.


Why would you be nuts? That's completely illogical. It is a known problem in the breed, the numbers reflect that. And as I said, they are actually likely higher because of people electing not to submit bad results. Unless you have secret x-ray vision (which I would love to have, believe me), if you don't look, you won't find. And if you don't find and you breed those dogs anyways, you are essentially sticking your head in the sand and saying "la la la la, don't want to know, don't want to know, just want to keep selling puppies..." 

Is it only because of money? So doing just hips and submitting them to OFA around here would be around $150-200 USD per parent. So say an extra $400 for the pair as a one time expense. If the female has a litter of 5, you charge $80 extra per pup. If any puppy buyer balks at that, well, good luck to them. Just one single large bottle of probably the best joint supplement is nearly $80. $80 per pup is nothing compared to the price of arthritis meds and definitely nothing compared to surgery. Not only do breeders need to be doing this of their own accord, but buyers take initiative and walk away from a litter that doesn't have this done, especially if you're paying a lot of good money for what seem to be nice dogs.


----------



## Joby Becker

brad robert said:


> Honestly the numbers are so small you would seriously be nuts to xray them.Joby is correct on the numbers i believe.


that is not what I really meant.

I am SURE that these days, what is being called a Pitbull, is riddled with HD...


----------



## Konnie Hein

Maren Bell Jones said:


> So doing just hips and submitting them to OFA around here would be around $150-200 USD per parent.


That's a good deal. Around here, OFA quality x-rays and submission of those x-rays to the OFA cost me double that.


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## Kadi Thingvall

Konnie Hein said:


> That's a good deal. Around here, OFA quality x-rays and submission of those x-rays to the OFA cost me double that.


I just did a dog's hips and elbows, 511.00 later I'm waiting for the official results.


----------



## brad robert

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Why would you be nuts? That's completely illogical. It is a known problem in the breed, the numbers reflect that. And as I said, they are actually likely higher because of people electing not to submit bad results. Unless you have secret x-ray vision (which I would love to have, believe me), if you don't look, you won't find. And if you don't find and you breed those dogs anyways, you are essentially sticking your head in the sand and saying "la la la la, don't want to know, don't want to know, just want to keep selling puppies..."
> 
> Is it only because of money? So doing just hips and submitting them to OFA around here would be around $150-200 USD per parent. So say an extra $400 for the pair as a one time expense. If the female has a litter of 5, you charge $80 extra per pup. If any puppy buyer balks at that, well, good luck to them. Just one single large bottle of probably the best joint supplement is nearly $80. $80 per pup is nothing compared to the price of arthritis meds and definitely nothing compared to surgery. Not only do breeders need to be doing this of their own accord, but buyers take initiative and walk away from a litter that doesn't have this done, especially if you're paying a lot of good money for what seem to be nice dogs.


Its like the farmers who have been breeding a line of farm and herding dogs for 40 years with never an xray why would they,they would think its silly the weak dont make it period.Im sure many an old time breeder or second generation breeder would look at you funny when you proposed this.

Im all for xrays on the breeds that require it as its an obvious problem but xraying a breed that hasnt been xrayed in decades and has produced fantastic working dogs that are known for hardness?.I do see the possabilty though by xraying the stock to make the most healthy and strong lines and breeds even better if possible.I like to keep an open mind maren and i dont like to stick my head in the sand like you said but the old saying if it aint broke


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## Joby Becker

brad robert said:


> Its like the farmers who have been breeding a line of farm and herding dogs for 40 years with never an xray why would they,they would think its silly the weak dont make it period.Im sure many an old time breeder or second generation breeder would look at you funny when you proposed this.
> 
> Im all for xrays on the breeds that require it as its an obvious problem but xraying a breed that hasnt been xrayed in decades and has produced fantastic working dogs that are known for hardness.I do see the possabilty though by xraying the stock to make the most healthy and strong lines and breeds even better if possible.I like to keep an open mind maren and i dont like to stick my head in the sand like you said but the old saying if it aint broke


Brad, in case you are not aware, the Pitbull is BROKEN, at least in the United States it is.....it is now so far overbred it is sickening...I can go out and buy 2 pups for 100.00...that will be capable of doing nothing most likely...

I would guess the average weight of what is being sold as pitbulls these days is about 70 lbs...


----------



## brad robert

Joby Becker said:


> Brad, in case you are not aware, the Pitbull is BROKEN, at least in the United States it is.....it is now so far overbred it is sickening...I can go out and buy 2 pups for 100.00...that will be capable of doing nothing most likely...
> 
> I would guess the average weight of what is being sold as pitbulls these days is about 70 lbs...


 I know joby and its sad would these dogs over there be papered with a registry??

But thats what i mean they are not pitbulls bred right.they are junk its my whole point.


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## Joby Becker

brad robert said:


> I know joby and its sad would these dogs over there be papered with a registry??
> 
> But thats what i mean they are not pitbulls bred right.they are junk its my whole point.


sure they are papered  most of them anyhow...


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Well I know a particular farm breed and farmers that existed on Brad's theory and low and behold they ended up with a family of genetic spine issues--that was quite evident in the 10-12 years but starting to express itself earlier. Before this the breed/farmers [other than the more local group with the spine issues] were coming up with a fair percentage of dogs that eventually went blind. Next came the epilepsy issues. So now within this breed, you're starting to see testing.


T


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## brad robert

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Well I know a particular farm breed and farmers that existed on Brad's theory and low and behold they ended up with a family of genetic spine issues--that was quite evident in the 10-12 years but starting to express itself earlier. Before this the breed/farmers [other than the more local group with the spine issues] were coming up with a fair percentage of dogs that eventually went blind. Next came the epilepsy issues. So now within this breed, you're starting to see testing.
> 
> 
> T


 Obviously there will be problems in some lines with some people.There is lines of kelpies and ACD here that very solid dogs.


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## brad robert

I would like to point out im not against xraying stock just pointing out some breeds have done very well before xrays were even considered for dogs.


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## Maren Bell Jones

What happens if you have a mostly closed population (as I imagine Australia probably has) is you get a couple of really popular sires in there with hidden bad hips and the population can go kerflooey. If they have supposedly done fine in the past, what do they have to lose by doing it now? 

Good is the enemy of great.--Jim Collins


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## Bob Scott

"I" think there is a genetic key (call it x) that allows some dogs with HD to perform and never show any outward signs. This could easily explain the generations of farm dogs that worked till an old age with never a sign of weakness. One outside breeding or one potent dog without that extra "x" key and hip problems start showing up. 
NOW, back in the day these dogs lacking in "x" didn't make the cut simply because they didn't function. Today we drag these "-x" carriers into the breeding program even though any individual dog may not have HD on film. 
Just a very uneducated though!


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## andreas broqvist

brad robert said:


> I would like to point out im not against xraying stock just pointing out some breeds have done very well before xrays were even considered for dogs.


Ofcaus, and in somway the breeding has ben less good with al the new tools. Saving pups and al that, but some tools I realy think everyone trying to breed helthy shuld use. Hipps is sutch a complicated thing. It moves fast thrue the geenpool and its realy hard to hold down the numbers if you do not work on it.

You might have à realy Clean line. And you have had for years and years without checking. Then you outcross and get the problems into you line, 3-4 gens later you might have spred this thrue your compete line of dogs. If you had checkt befor you culd have seen this befor you spred the hidden genetik faults.


----------



## Sara Waters

andreas broqvist said:


> You might have à realy Clean line. And you have had for years and years without checking. Then you outcross and get the problems into you line, 3-4 gens later you might have spred this thrue your compete line of dogs. If you had checkt befor you culd have seen this befor you spred the hidden genetik faults.


The breeder that I got my working BC from has been breeding and working dogs (they have 10,000 sheep) for many years. They decided to strengthen their lines with a UK import from excellent bloodlines. Then after a 2nd gen mating HD showed up. Unfortunately in the litter my pup is from. The breeder who had not hip scored before went and got all their dogs done including an 11 year old dog still working and several oldies long retired. Hips were all perfect across their own dogs. UK dog was okay too, but some digging revealed some problems that had arisen in some of the UK dogs line.

My dog has some laxity in his hips but he is lean and fit and the ortho doesnt believe it will be a problem. One of his litter mates was not so lucky and is quite bad. 

Interesting about cattle dogs. The original station bred cattle dogs were pretty free from dysplasias, but when they started being showline bred no one much bothered to test them. Apparently these days they are on a par with labradors for ED which is pretty bad really - top 25 dogs breeds. No longer worked in serious station country combined with no testing.

Working bred kelpies and koolies have reletively low occurences of HD despite the lack of testing by working breeders and farmers.


----------



## andreas broqvist

Yes its so easy to get it into your lines and if you breed that dog to many dogs you realy get some problems.

Ther you se the problem with not x-raying sibblings and parents. Just 1 dog x-rayd in à liter is as almost as useles as non. Just easyer to sell dogs from....


----------



## brad robert

andreas broqvist said:


> Ofcaus, and in somway the breeding has ben less good with al the new tools. Saving pups and al that, but some tools I realy think everyone trying to breed helthy shuld use. Hipps is sutch a complicated thing. It moves fast thrue the geenpool and its realy hard to hold down the numbers if you do not work on it.
> 
> Good points.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sara Waters said:
> 
> 
> 
> The breeder that I got my working BC from has been breeding and working dogs (they have 10,000 sheep) for many years. They decided to strengthen their lines with a UK import from excellent bloodlines. Then after a 2nd gen mating HD showed up. Unfortunately in the litter my pup is from. The breeder who had not hip scored before went and got all their dogs done including an 11 year old dog still working and several oldies long retired. Hips were all perfect across their own dogs. UK dog was okay too, but some digging revealed some problems that had arisen in some of the UK dogs line.
> 
> My dog has some laxity in his hips but he is lean and fit and the ortho doesnt believe it will be a problem. One of his litter mates was not so lucky and is quite bad.
> 
> Interesting about cattle dogs. The original station bred cattle dogs were pretty free from dysplasias, but when they started being showline bred no one much bothered to test them. Apparently these days they are on a par with labradors for ED which is pretty bad really - top 25 dogs breeds. No longer worked in serious station country combined with no testing.
> 
> Working bred kelpies and koolies have reletively low occurences of HD despite the lack of testing by working breeders and farmers.
> 
> 
> 
> Nice post sarah and it shows how some lines are really solid and one dog can stuff it.I agree about working line ACD really have not seen many weaknesses to speak of but showline sux and most i have seen lately are to big to run all day anyhow.
> 
> 
> 
> Maren Bell Jones said:
> 
> 
> 
> What happens if you have a mostly closed population (as I imagine Australia probably has) is you get a couple of really popular sires in there with hidden bad hips and the population can go kerflooey. If they have supposedly done fine in the past, what do they have to lose by doing it now?
> 
> Good is the enemy of great.--Jim Collins
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Absolutely nothing some people who have really solid dogs might not see it as a neccessatity they dont sell many dogs and if there dogs break down they dont keep feeding them.
> Good points about the sires they could quickly ruin things.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bob Scott said:
> 
> 
> 
> "I" think there is a genetic key (call it x) that allows some dogs with HD to perform and never show any outward signs. This could easily explain the generations of farm dogs that worked till an old age with never a sign of weakness. One outside breeding or one potent dog without that extra "x" key and hip problems start showing up.
> NOW, back in the day these dogs lacking in "x" didn't make the cut simply because they didn't function. Today we drag these "-x" carriers into the breeding program even though any individual dog may not have HD on film.
> Just a very uneducated though!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I like this a whole lot!!!
Click to expand...


----------



## Oluwatobi Odunuga

No intention of derailing the thread but i have a quick question,
For people in countries not familiar with dogsports, is it possible to take x-rays locally and send them by email to the OFA or SV for analysis. In Nigeria we don't have any serious breed clubs so i wonder how i will evaluate my dogs when i start breeding.
Could do like the KNPV guys but i don't know how reliable a regular vet is compared with the OFA guys.


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

Oluwatobi Odunuga said:


> No intention of derailing the thread but i have a quick question,
> For people in countries not familiar with dogsports, is it possible to take x-rays locally and send them by email to the OFA or SV for analysis. In Nigeria we don't have any serious breed clubs so i wonder how i will evaluate my dogs when i start breeding.
> Could do like the KNPV guys but i don't know how reliable a regular vet is compared with the OFA guys.


Olu,
I don't know why you couldn't send them to OFA for a reading. Check the OFA website for acceptance of digital x-rays and what their criteria is or call/email them--http://www.offa.org


Terrasita


----------



## Joby Becker

Oluwatobi Odunuga said:


> No intention of derailing the thread but i have a quick question,
> For people in countries not familiar with dogsports, is it possible to take x-rays locally and send them by email to the OFA or SV for analysis. In Nigeria we don't have any serious breed clubs so i wonder how i will evaluate my dogs when i start breeding.
> Could do like the KNPV guys but i don't know how reliable a regular vet is compared with the OFA guys.


Tobi....

It is very important that the OFA style hip xrays be taken with correct positioning...

I have been to vets that have taken bad xrays, and have made decisions (irreversible decisions) based on a poor xray..

If the vet screws it up, it can absolutely cause a dog to look like it has bad hips, when it does not have bad hips.. I have seen this for myself...


----------



## will fernandez

....wa.....


----------



## Sara Waters

Maren Bell Jones said:


> What happens if you have a mostly closed population (as I imagine Australia probably has) is you get a couple of really popular sires in there with hidden bad hips and the population can go kerflooey. If they have supposedly done fine in the past, what do they have to lose by doing it now?


An interesting article appeared in an Australian Kelpie magazine by CA Sharp addressing Popular sires and Poulation genetics. This article was extracted and published in our local working sheep dog newsletter. 

It made for interesting reading and was a notice to breeders and owners to re think their long term goals and how they react to hereditary problems" A rethink of how we utilise stud animals and that no single animal no matter how superior should dominate the gene pool of its breed.

Article first appeared in the "Double Helix Network News vol 1V, No.3 (summer 1998 )


----------



## Oluwatobi Odunuga

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Olu,
> I don't know why you couldn't send them to OFA for a reading. Check the OFA website for acceptance of digital x-rays and what their criteria is or call/email them--http://www.offa.org
> 
> 
> Terrasita


Thanks a lot Terrasita, 
Any idea on how dog owners are supposed to pay for the evaluations? Also do you have to send a hard copy by courier or is it possible to send via emails?


----------



## Oluwatobi Odunuga

Joby Becker said:


> Tobi....
> 
> It is very important that the OFA style hip xrays be taken with correct positioning...
> 
> I have been to vets that have taken bad xrays, and have made decisions (irreversible decisions) based on a poor xray..
> 
> If the vet screws it up, it can absolutely cause a dog to look like it has bad hips, when it does not have bad hips.. I have seen this for myself...


Does the OFA style x-ray have to be done by an OFA staff? The reason is i can't afford to send all my dogs outside the country just for a hip evaluation.


----------



## Kadi Thingvall

Oluwatobi Odunuga said:


> Does the OFA style x-ray have to be done by an OFA staff? The reason is i can't afford to send all my dogs outside the country just for a hip evaluation.


No, any vet can do it. OFA explains on their website the position that needs to be done, I think it's a pretty common position for hip evaluations. http://www.offa.org/hd_procedures.html They have a similar page for elbows.


----------



## Oluwatobi Odunuga

Kadi Thingvall said:


> No, any vet can do it. OFA explains on their website the position that needs to be done, I think it's a pretty common position for hip evaluations. http://www.offa.org/hd_procedures.html They have a similar page for elbows.


Thanks a lot Kadi:-D


----------



## Joby Becker

was just meaning to make sure they know what they are doing, some vets do not position well at all....


----------



## Bob Scott

Joby Becker said:


> was just meaning to make sure they know what they are doing, some vets do not position well at all....



Correct positioning is critical to a correct read.


----------



## Sara Waters

Bob Scott said:


> Correct positioning is critical to a correct read.


Yes we had a situation recently where one of our top dogs was having a few lameness issues. Was x-rayed and a diagnosis of severe HD was the outcome. Pretty devastating news. Fortunately the owner went and got a second opinion from an ortho who did his own set of scans. Turns out hips were perfect and it was a another easily dealt with problem. The dog had been poorly positioned during the original x-rays.


----------



## Skip Morgart

I have a good local vet for most stuff, but I drive over an hour to a vet in Rocky River that has a reputation for getting the proper x-rays to be sent to OFA. It really does make a big difference if the vet has a lot of experience for positioning the dog properly in order to send the x-rays to OFA.


----------



## Joby Becker

Sara Waters said:


> Yes we had a situation recently where one of our top dogs was having a few lameness issues. Was x-rayed and a diagnosis of severe HD was the outcome. Pretty devastating news. Fortunately the owner went and got a second opinion from an ortho who did his own set of scans. Turns out hips were perfect and it was a another easily dealt with problem. The dog had been poorly positioned during the original x-rays.


I had the same thing happen to me when I first got into dogs, went out got a few dogs, took them to my local vet at the time, got xrays, and put the dogs down...I then had one dog that was kinda borderline..so I let him age some and took him back in, to another vet that a friend of mine used out of state, because I was in the area...(my current vet) and he told me the dogs hips would be OFA good and they were..I showed him the xray I had taken previously and he showed me, what was wrong with it, pulled out some films all taken of the same dog, with different positioning and showed me how the dog coudla went from severe HD all the way up to OFA good...

next time I went to him was for ear crops on a litter (presa) and I brought all my previous films to him to look at...and he told me he would not have made a decision based on ANY of them...
:sad:


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## andreas broqvist

Yea I have that experiens myself. Ther I think OFA/FCI ore who ever read the hipp shuld have a N/A choise. Send the plates back becaus the cant be reed, the MUST know that ther is bad plates and not bad hips.

We have goten one plate back for elbows becaus of this.


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## Keith Jenkins

You also have the cases where people send in hips to OFA then find out they're bad and don't release them or their vet determines they won't pass and then go shop around in some third world country and they miraculously come back passing...


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## andreas broqvist

ther is always asholes and stupd peopel trying to go around the system. But if the buyers wuld do ther homework it wuld be aloot easyer for the good breeders to.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

andreas broqvist said:


> Yea I have that experiens myself. Ther I think OFA/FCI ore who ever read the hipp shuld have a N/A choise. Send the plates back becaus the cant be reed, the MUST know that ther is bad plates and not bad hips.
> 
> We have goten one plate back for elbows becaus of this.


Yes, you can look at hips and know that the positioning is incorrect.

T


----------



## Joby Becker

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Yes, you can look at hips and know that the positioning is incorrect.
> 
> T


If you are educated about it sure.. which some people and some vets are not...


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## andreas broqvist

But that reders of hips OFA/SKK/FCI are educated and they shulde easyly se that the dog is not corectly alignd


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## Joby Becker

andreas broqvist said:


> But that reders of hips OFA/SKK/FCI are educated and they shulde easyly se that the dog is not corectly alignd


that is very true...as well..

If an xray shows bad hips, and the vet says bad hips, not many people bother to send it in


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## Harry Keely

Keith Jenkins said:


> You also have the cases where people send in hips to OFA then find out they're bad and don't release them or their vet determines they won't pass and then go shop around in some third world country and they miraculously come back passing...


Yup I made that comment in similar words earlier in the thread, thats what freaks me out is the loop holes in these orgs.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

At this point, whether or not the private organizations are a open or closed certification system is the least of our problem. In working line GSDs you have a registry that allows continued breeding of mild and borderline hips and elbows. Next you have the ability to certify year old dogs. You will never be able to improve hips/elbows this way.

Terrasita


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## andreas broqvist

Then you have to get you gsds from Sweden  if the army dosent destroy ouer market for private breed gsds her first....


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## Lynda Myers

Joby Becker said:


> that is very true...as well..
> 
> If an xray shows bad hips, and the vet says bad hips, not many people bother to send it in


That's when you as the buyer or a breeder wanting to use a particular dog have to assume (yeah I know) that the animals are dysplastic until proven otherwise. There's a whole big stink going on now in the bulldog community about the ethics of breeders and such. But ultimately the responsibility is with the seeker. You've got to do your research then ask to see the physical proof or results. 
This one thing puts OFA head and shoulders above the rest. Because OFA has an semi-open database and most all records can be viewed on their website. Ya just need a name and a breed. Of course the owner has the right for their information to not be posted. But then again if its not that should be a red flag to ya.


----------



## Lynda Myers

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> At this point, whether or not the private organizations are a open or closed certification system is the least of our problem. In working line GSDs you have a registry that allows continued breeding of mild and borderline hips and elbows. Next you have the ability to certify year old dogs. You will never be able to improve hips/elbows this way.
> 
> Terrasita


True, but its really up to the consumer to refuse to buy dogs from those lines where hip/elbow health is not important. It is the buyers that can make or break a system. They are also the ones to catapults the needed change. If they would demand healthy hips and elbows etc. Like it or not the dollar still is a powerful motivator.


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## Don Turnipseed

I have only had one dogs hips tested in all the years I have been breeding. A 6 year old, 7th gen dog that had every dog in him. 
http://www.offa.org/display.html?appnum=1294782#animal
IMHO, if you quit raising em in the house you will solve half your problems. If they can run rough steep country day after day, the hips are fine. If they can run through full bore through the woods at night and never run into a tree, their sight is just fine. If the dog has one good hip and one bad that is the first sign it isn't genetic. :grin:


----------



## Don Turnipseed

Lynda Myers said:


> That's when you as the buyer or a breeder wanting to use a particular dog have to assume (yeah I know) that the animals are dysplastic until proven otherwise. There's a whole big stink going on now in the bulldog community about the ethics of breeders and such. But ultimately the responsibility is with the seeker. You've got to do your research then ask to see the physical proof or results.
> This one thing puts OFA head and shoulders above the rest. Because OFA has an semi-open database and most all records can be viewed on their website. Ya just need a name and a breed. Of course the owner has the right for their information to not be posted. But then again if its not that should be a red flag to ya.


One way to try and increase one's market share on the sly.


----------



## Keith Jenkins

Don Turnipseed said:


> I have only had one dogs hips tested in all the years I have been breeding. A 6 year old, 7th gen dog that had every dog in him.
> http://www.offa.org/display.html?appnum=1294782#animal
> IMHO, if you quit raising em in the house you will solve half your problems. If they can run rough steep country day after day, the hips are fine. If they can run through full bore through the woods at night and never run into a tree, their sight is just fine. If the dog has one good hip and one bad that is the first sign it isn't genetic. :grin:


What utter BS. I know of plenty of dogs that can/could still do the work who were determined to be dysplastic but I sure don't want them in the gene pool.


----------



## Keith Jenkins

Lynda Myers said:


> That's when you as the buyer or a breeder wanting to use a particular dog have to assume (yeah I know) that the animals are dysplastic until proven otherwise. There's a whole big stink going on now in the bulldog community about the ethics of breeders and such. But ultimately the responsibility is with the seeker. You've got to do your research then ask to see the physical proof or results.
> This one thing puts OFA head and shoulders above the rest. Because OFA has an semi-open database and most all records can be viewed on their website. Ya just need a name and a breed. Of course the owner has the right for their information to not be posted. But then again if its not that should be a red flag to ya.


How true. I always see a red flag when someone just releases the listing for elbows. Nobody in the their right mind only sends in elbows and/or has no hips listed unless their was/is a problem.


----------



## Don Turnipseed

Keith Jenkins said:


> What utter BS. I know of plenty of dogs that can/could still do the work who were determined to be dysplastic but I sure don't want them in the gene pool.


You got your opinions, I got mine Keith. You posted your BS, I posted mine. I got good reasons for mine. Have no idea what yours are based on. I don't own a dog that has ever been in a vet either. The biggest health risks for dogs today is veterinary care.


----------



## Connie Sutherland

Lynda Myers said:


> .... its really up to the consumer to refuse to buy dogs from those lines where hip/elbow health is not important.



Yes. Ditto!


----------



## Skip Morgart

Don Turnipseed said:


> You got your opinions, I got mine Keith. You posted your BS, I posted mine. I got good reasons for mine. Have no idea what yours are based on. I don't own a dog that has ever been in a vet either. The biggest health risks for dogs today is veterinary care.


I just believe that Keith and I and others just like to be able to have a knowledgable organization verify that to us. I've heard stories of some lines having hardly any health issues that couldn't be verified, and I've heard stories about breeders just burying any negative evidence.


----------



## Don Turnipseed

Skip Morgart said:


> I just believe that Keith and I and others just like to be able to have a knowledgable organization verify that to us. I've heard stories of some lines having hardly any health issues that couldn't be verified, and I've heard stories about breeders just burying any negative evidence.


I have heard stories of buyers doing everything in the world wrong and ruining dogs. Know of one that the owner hit with a car, went back to the breeder and claimed something was wrong with the dog. Heard that one from the owner himself while he bragged about how he got the dog replaced. There is a story for everything and anyone can come up with one but it never proves anything in the long run. Just another story to support someones opinion..


----------



## Skip Morgart

Don Turnipseed said:


> I have heard stories of buyers doing everything in the world wrong and ruining dogs. Know of one that the owner hit with a car, went back to the breeder and claimed something was wrong with the dog. Heard that one from the owner himself while he bragged about how he got the dog replaced. There is a story for everything and anyone can come up with one but it never proves anything in the long run. Just another story to support someones opinion..


Yep...but I'll still try to use info that can be verified, at least as much as possible. With a lot of people, it's easy to see it's mostly BS.


----------



## Joby Becker

I had a dog that ran like the wind, and could jump over a 6 ft fence 20 times in a row, dog was over 110 lbs...

got him xrayed, his hips were SHOT.....no physical signs were noticable..

vet was surprised he was even walking...

Xray IS the only way to tell for sure, for now....


----------



## Don Turnipseed

I have known several dogs that were tested to only have fair hips that never had a problem until they died at 12 years.


----------



## Joby Becker

Don Turnipseed said:


> I have known several dogs that were tested to only have fair hips that never had a problem until they died at 12 years.


that is fine...many dogs have *bad* hips and do not show signs until old age, just not something a responsible breeder should use for breeding..

and if you don't xray, you have no clue..especially with dogs that show no physical signs in daily life....


----------



## Don Turnipseed

Joby Becker said:


> that is fine...many dogs have *bad* hips and do not show signs until old age, just not something a responsible breeder should use for breeding..
> 
> and if you don't xray, you have no clue..especially with dogs that show no physical signs in daily life....


I have no clue??? LOL And your an expert on this also? LOL. Shit Joby, you pay for ads when your dog isn't even pregnant and your telling me I don't have a clue. LOL I got a real good clue since I never get calls about anything to due with hips after 12 generations. I even bred to a dog that bunny hopped years ago to check this out. Those dogs never produced a dog with a problem. I have had enough dogs I tested different theories myself(including training methods)....something few people could even think of doing. I still have some of the offspring from those dogs. Tracked the others. No problems after a lot of years.


----------



## Joby Becker

Don Turnipseed said:


> I have no clue??? LOL And your an expert on this also? LOL. Shit Joby, you pay for ads when your dog isn't even pregnant and your telling me I don't have a clue. LOL I got a real good clue since I never get calls about anything to due with hips after 12 generations. I even bred to a dog that bunny hopped years ago to check this out. Those dogs never produced a dog with a problem. I have had enough dogs I tested different theories myself(including training methods)....something few people could even think of doing. I still have some of the offspring from those dogs. Tracked the others. No problems after a lot of years.


Don, was not saying YOU just dont have a clue...

NO ONE has a clue, without an xray...you can say you know you have never produced a dog with a problem, but that cannot be accurate..

you have produced over 1000 pups, according to you, you cannot possibly have kept up on all of these dogs til they die...

also, NOT HAVING A PROBLEM according to what the owners feedback is DOES NOT mean that some of those dogs did not have hip dysplasia...
end of story...

you cannot tell if a dog is free of hip dysplasia, without Xrays, period...

lots of dogs have HD, that show NO physical symptoms..hell if the dog doesnt show it, great....but a breeder should xray period...that is just my, and probably everybody elses opinion...

you obviously have a different opinion...which is fine with me personally, just tells me you are one of those people that thinks they can tell by looking at a dog...which is really really silly...


----------



## Joby Becker

article excerpt...from VET who also breeds Airedales..

*"All breeders that breed in any significant numbers and who track their offspring will see dysplasia....Breeders that report “no hip dysplasia in their line” are likely either not breeding much or are not monitoring their breeding program carefully enough. 

Since Airedales are medium-sized, they are less likely to exhibit symptoms than larger breeds, so dysplastic dogs can easily go undiscovered."*


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

Joby Becker said:


> I had a dog that ran like the wind, and could jump over a 6 ft fence 20 times in a row, dog was over 110 lbs...
> 
> got him xrayed, his hips were SHOT.....no physical signs were noticable..
> 
> vet was surprised he was even walking...
> 
> Xray IS the only way to tell for sure, for now....


What fair are you [Don] talking about--OFA Fair? Or is that someone else's designation. Yard dog raised running in steep country. How many of your dogs do you place in those situations? If no calls in 12 generations then how do you blame HD on how the puppy was raised.

T


----------



## tracey schneider

Also no reports back from owners is a positive sign, but not all signs are glaring and not everyone can notice the less obvious. I certainly wouldn't bank on it.


----------



## Edward Weiss

Joby Becker said:


> article excerpt...from VET who also breeds Airedales..
> 
> Since Airedales are medium-sized, they are less likely to exhibit symptoms than larger breeds, so dysplastic dogs can easily go undiscovered."[/B]


"According to the OFA the incidence of dysplasia in Airedales was 13.6% from 1974 to 1998. This is based on 3,107 x-rays submitted to them for evaluation."


----------



## Joby Becker

Edward Weiss said:


> "According to the OFA the incidence of dysplasia in Airedales was 13.6% from 1974 to 1998. This is based on 3,107 x-rays submitted to them for evaluation."


It looks to be less than that now even..which is great....

do you xray your breeding stock Ed?


----------



## Don Turnipseed

Joby Becker said:


> article excerpt...from VET who also breeds Airedales..
> 
> *"All breeders that breed in any significant numbers and who track their offspring will see dysplasia....Breeders that report “no hip dysplasia in their line” are likely either not breeding much or are not monitoring their breeding program carefully enough.
> 
> Since Airedales are medium-sized, they are less likely to exhibit symptoms than larger breeds, so dysplastic dogs can easily go undiscovered."*


How about a source of that excerpt Joby. Just so you know, my dogs are, many times, over twice the size of the standard. The standard is 21" to 23' .....mimimum range from 27" to 30". Weight is from 40 to 55lbs. Odin is 105lbs. Wild Bill is 95lbs etc. My smallest male is 70lbs. Still like to see the source. Has to be the vet from Tx. Post is his name....breeds show dogs. Have had many discussions with him.


----------



## Edward Weiss

Joby Becker said:


> It looks to be less than that now even..which is great....
> 
> do you xray your breeding stock Ed?


Haven't bred in a long time. Then it was Giant Schnauzers bigger dogs with more HD. Did X Ray those.
Produced three litters with no HD in the pups..mother was OFA excellent and produced the same.

Mother came from a long line of HD 0 German dogs.
Seemed to me her hips and temperament carried strongly into her offspring.
One male became a working police dog for McCraken county Kentucky and was killed in a felony apprehension.


----------



## Joby Becker

Edward Weiss said:


> Haven't bred in a long time. Then it was Giant Schnauzers bigger dogs with more HD. Did X Ray those.
> Produced three litters with no HD in the pups..mother was OFA excellent and produced the same.
> 
> Mother came from a long line of HD 0 German dogs.
> Seemed to me her hips and temperament carried strongly into her offspring.
> One male became a working police dog for McCraken county Kentucky and was killed in a felony apprehension.



would you xray hips if you were going to breed litters?


----------



## Don Turnipseed

Joby said,


> you obviously have a different opinion...which is fine with me personally, just tells me you are one of those people that thinks they can tell by looking at a dog...which is really really silly...


Has nothing to do with "just looking at the dog" Joby. The Sierra Nevadas are steep rough mountains. The dogs may do 30 to 40 miles in a day. Lots of uphill, lots of downhill in extremely steep country. How they are for the next couple of days is what I look for. It is a bit different than maybe doing 20 or 30 yards a few times on a flat grassy ball field and then being crated again. Y'all need to get into the world of working dogs. Testing is obviously the only way y'all can tell anything. I do understand that, but, don't ever think that others can't see what is going on.
__________________


----------



## brad robert

Don Turnipseed said:


> You got your opinions, I got mine Keith. You posted your BS, I posted mine. I got good reasons for mine. Have no idea what yours are based on. I don't own a dog that has ever been in a vet either. The biggest health risks for dogs today is veterinary care.


 
How could you hunt dogs and not need veterinary care i mean any catch dog is going to get banged up ripped up and going to need antibiotics.Now if they are not catch dogs i can see them not getting hurt but why would you need such big dogs to bay boar or any game for that fact?

Are you saying if they need a vet they just die??

Sorry Don im not following those comments.


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## brad robert

Can anyone show proof in numbers that xraying helps improves the HD because this would be a very strong argument for xraying stock.I mean if the numbers of dogs showing HD are massively lower who could ever deny it but if its marginal what has it improved?


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## Edward Egan

brad robert said:


> Can anyone show proof in numbers that xraying helps improves the HD because this would be a very strong argument for xraying stock.I mean if the numbers of dogs showing HD are massively lower who could ever deny it but if its marginal what has it improved?


The percentages of dog with HD are unknown, only estimates have ever been done. X-rays clear a dog for breeding or elminate a dog as breeding stock if HD is found. This should in theroy reduce the amount of HD. Provided the untested breedings don't undermine the progress that x-rays have accomplished.


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## Lynda Myers

Keith Jenkins said:


> What utter BS. I know of plenty of dogs that can/could still do the work who were determined to be dysplastic but I sure don't want them in the gene pool.


I also agree the ability to work is not just govern by solid hip structure or lack there of several things can over rule it. things like high pain tolerance, good muscling, correct conformation and probably most important to a working dog, drive and heart to do the work.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

brad robert said:


> Can anyone show proof in numbers that xraying helps improves the HD because this would be a very strong argument for xraying stock.I mean if the numbers of dogs showing HD are massively lower who could ever deny it but if its marginal what has it improved?


 
Its not just about x-raying dogs. It takes not using dogs that don't pass a certain standard in the breeding program. I know of breeding programs that selected for tight hips rigorously and got them so it can be done. But you keep adding bad hips to the program and you keep it a crap shoot.

T


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## Joby Becker

brad robert said:


> Can anyone show proof in numbers that xraying helps improves the HD because this would be a very strong argument for xraying stock.I mean if the numbers of dogs showing HD are massively lower who could ever deny it but if its marginal what has it improved?


http://www.offa.org/stats_hip.html?view=2

Can be disputed for sure..but does show trends in xrays that have been submitted...

There are stats on the differences in breeding dogs with HD, as opposed to breeding dogs without HD, and what they produce..

It is well known that breeding dogs with better overall hips produces overall dogs with better hips, that is not disputable.. the only way to test hips currently is by xray, xraying in itself will not reduce anything..it tells the hip status, if breeders do not make wise breeding choices based on the xrays, and familial trends, then progress may not be made...


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## Maren Bell Jones

brad robert said:


> Can anyone show proof in numbers that xraying helps improves the HD because this would be a very strong argument for xraying stock.I mean if the numbers of dogs showing HD are massively lower who could ever deny it but if its marginal what has it improved?


Yes. There are actually quite a few studies showing that incidence has improved, though there is always room for improvement. Here's one example (I mention it because you can read the whole thing for free on Pubmed if you like), but there are more on Pubmed if you search:



> Retrospective analysis for genetic improvement of hip joints of cohort labrador retrievers in the United States: 1970-2007.
> Hou Y, Wang Y, Lust G, Zhu L, Zhang Z, Todhunter RJ.
> Source
> College of Animal Science & Technology, China Agricultural University, Beijing, China.
> Abstract
> BACKGROUND:
> Canine Hip Dysplasia (CHD) is a common inherited disease that affects dog wellbeing and causes a heavy financial and emotional burden to dog owners and breeders due to secondary hip osteoarthritis. The Orthopedic Foundation for Animals (OFA) initiated a program in the 1960's to radiograph hip and elbow joints and release the OFA scores to the public for breeding dogs against CHD. Over last four decades, more than one million radiographic scores have been released.
> METHODOLOGY/PRINCIPAL FINDINGS:
> The pedigrees in the OFA database consisted of 258,851 Labrador retrievers, the major breed scored by the OFA (25% of total records). Of these, 154,352 dogs had an OFA hip score reported between 1970 and 2007. The rest of the dogs (104,499) were the ancestors of the 154,352 dogs to link the pedigree relationships. The OFA hip score is based on a 7-point scale with the best ranked as 1 (excellent) and the worst hip dysplasia as 7. A mixed linear model was used to estimate the effects of age, sex, and test year period and to predict the breeding value for each dog. Additive genetic and residual variances were estimated using the average information restricted maximum likelihood procedure. The analysis also provided an inbreeding coefficient for each dog. The hip scores averaged 1.93 (+/-SD = 0.59) and the heritability was 0.21. A steady genetic improvement has accrued over the four decades. The breeding values decreased (improved) linearly. By the end of 2005, the total genetic improvement was 0.1 units, which is equivalent to 17% of the total phenotypic standard deviation.
> CONCLUSION/SIGNIFICANCE:
> A steady genetic improvement has been achieved through the selection based on the raw phenotype released by the OFA. As the heritability of the hip score was on the low end (0.21) of reported ranges, we propose that selection based on breeding values will result in more rapid genetic improvement than breeding based on phenotypic selection alone.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2827553/?tool=pubmed


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## Bob Scott

The % of Pits "THAT HAVE BEEN X-RAYED runs about 18-20%. Google is full of info on it. 
My dog Thunder had moderate HD according to his xrays. He never showed ANY sign of it till this past year. He's 8 yrs old and I blame a lot of that on his, and my inactivity. I think staying active is key to any dog or person functioning correctly. 
Granted,a lot of pits will never show it. That was my point in an earlier post about many of the old farm/working/hunting dogs may have had it but weren't going to make the breeding scene (or the next meal) if any problems showed up. It's going to show up more simply because most dogs aren't going to get the exercise they need OR they were bred into lines that don't show the resistant to problems like some dogs have.


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## Don Turnipseed

brad robert said:


> How could you hunt dogs and not need veterinary care i mean any catch dog is going to get banged up ripped up and going to need antibiotics.Now if they are not catch dogs i can see them not getting hurt but why would you need such big dogs to bay boar or any game for that fact?
> 
> Are you saying if they need a vet they just die??
> 
> Sorry Don im not following those comments.


Brad, I have patched more dogs up than you can imagine. Staple guns, locals, super glue, antibiotics, stitches, vet wrap, etc. You would be surprised what you learn in the real world of dogs and breeding. I have probably had in the neighborhood of 200 pups with parvo. Lost maybe 5 and none have been to a vet. If I am not mistaken, you didn't know why your dog was tracking downwind of the track you laid. You got a lot to learn about dogs son.


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## Don Turnipseed

Racing greyhounds have what....about a zero incedence of HD. They are not tested, they are worked and if they can't do the work...they are out. Running a few yards back and forth doing bitework is not a test. Walking around a ring is not a test. Lots of what many mistakenly perceive as work does not test a dog physically. Hounds can run 12 hours on a track or they are out. Tests became popular for those that have not got the where with all to actually test dogs for work. Test your dogs if you fall into that category, it is the only recourse you have, but, don't ever fool yourself that some venues do not adequately test a dog.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

I disagree that its a matter of exercise. That can go both ways. Its a toss up as to when the symptoms will show up and I really feel thats irrelevant and part of some breeders burying their heads in the sand. This is something that can be controlled. There are other things like cancer that need attention. For every dog that doesn't show symptoms until the more geriatric years, theres a dog that is symptomatic between ages 2-5. In working line dogs, the SV says you can breed the equivalent of mildly dysplastic and borderline hips and that's what they do. SV says they will certify year old dogs when its well known that this allows dypsplasia in. That's what they do. Then they implement the ZW system. What a crock. WHAT IF the SV said Age 2 x-rays and we now eliminate the categories of Fast Normal and Noch Zuch. How many dogs eliminated and how many generations to clean up hips after this many years of gene pool disaster?

If I called a breeder and asked him about hip/elbow x-rays and he told me he had his own test--running them 30-40 miles through the moutains, I would fall out laughing after telling him, yeah sure but no thanks. When you sell the pups to people do you tell them that they can only be healthy if they aren't kept as house dogs. You do realize that there are many house dogs out there in the world that live out their lives without orthopedic or other health problems. I know you're into stirring the pot in just about any thread on any subject but I really can't believe that we are back to a yard dog is a healthy dog. 

Terrasita


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## Bob Scott

Don Turnipseed said:


> Racing greyhounds have what....about a zero incedence of HD. They are not tested, they are worked and if they can't do the work...they are out. Running a few yards back and forth doing bitework is not a test. Walking around a ring is not a test. Lots of what many mistakenly perceive as work does not test a dog physically. Hounds can run 12 hours on a track or they are out. Tests became popular for those that have not got the where with all to actually test dogs for work. Test your dogs if you fall into that category, it is the only recourse you have, but, don't ever fool yourself that some venues do not adequately test a dog.


Climbing a ladder is a test. Hours on a search in the woods is a test. Scaling a 6ft+ wall is a test. working stock for hours is a test. There are many obstical courses that will test a dog.
I agree that running all night in a hunt is a great test but far from the only thing out there to test a dog.


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## brad robert

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Yes. There are actually quite a few studies showing that incidence has improved, though there is always room for improvement. Here's one example (I mention it because you can read the whole thing for free on Pubmed if you like), but there are more on Pubmed if you search:
> 
> 
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2827553/?tool=pubmed


Thanks to anyone who posted info to show how HD is improving thru testing thats very cool.


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## brad robert

Don Turnipseed said:


> Brad, I have patched more dogs up than you can imagine. Staple guns, locals, super glue, antibiotics, stitches, vet wrap, etc. You would be surprised what you learn in the real world of dogs and breeding. I have probably had in the neighborhood of 200 pups with parvo. Lost maybe 5 and none have been to a vet. If I am not mistaken, you didn't know why your dog was tracking downwind of the track you laid. You got a lot to learn about dogs son.


Where did you get the antibiotics??

Real world your kidding right the real world where your dales are hard as nails LMAO!! 

Actually it was crosswind and yeah i have alot to learn about dogsport and dogs thats why i ask questions but i have an open mind and i am very keen to learn unlike SOME and i dont like to be narrow minded.They say if you dont have an open mind you stop learning even when im as ancient as you i wouldnt want that!!


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## Don Turnipseed

brad robert said:


> Where did you get the antibiotics??
> 
> Real world your kidding right the real world where your dales are hard as nails LMAO!!
> 
> Actually it was crosswind and yeah i have alot to learn about dogsport and dogs thats why i ask questions but i have an open mind and i am very keen to learn unlike SOME and i dont like to be narrow minded.They say if you dont have an open mind you stop learning even when im as ancient as you i wouldnt want that!!


Brad, if you had a clue, you would realize my mind is as open as anyone that is telling me I don't have a clue. They just want me to agree with them.....or should I say agree with "the source they learned from, whether it be a stack of video or books.". And your trying to learn from them. Other than thatYou may not like to be narrow minded, but, you got to have one "of your own" to avoid it. Think about that. Also, I have and do learn things here....just not from the people that post these days......


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## leslie cassian

Hip Dysplasia is heart-breaking. I put down my backyard bred HD dog in the spring because he was clearly hurting despite supplements and meds. He didn't make it to his 9th birthday. 

He was the reason that my last two dogs were from breeders that work and xray their dogs. No guarantee that they won't have hip or elbow issues, but a better bet than just crossing my fingers and hoping I get lucky.


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## Sara Waters

Over here I am yet to find a breeding of working collies, koolies or kelpies who screen their dogs. The BC show breeders all do their dogs. So you have a choice - showbred BC with all the tests or a working bred with none. No one seems to screen working kelpies either. Most good breeders will breed from hardworking proven stockdogs especially if their dogs carry the working kelpie council registration and guarantee to work.

It is hard to guage if there is a problem because on the surface it appears rare. However most working dogs would be culled if problems show up. Most working dogs are also lean, fit and well muscled which could well mask the situation and when they get arthritic and cant work they get a bullet unless they are a favourite in which case they get to lie in the sun. 

I know my working BC doesnt have the best hips most likely as a result of an imported dog being introduced into his lines. It is certainly not something you hear about very often from graziers as a significant problem.

The working kelpie in particular seems to be pretty free of most of these problems although who really knows. Certainly one of my family members who was an orthopod told me it was very rare to see a kelpie in her line of work. Dont know if it because they got shot first, but there again there are plenty of working kelpies that seem to end up in surburbia.

With my next cattle dog I am most reluctant to get one from untested lines given that they are becoming a higher risk for ED.. With working kelpies and BCs I guess I am willing to take the chance as I have no choice really.


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## susan tuck

leslie cassian said:


> Hip Dysplasia is heart-breaking. I put down my backyard bred HD dog in the spring because he was clearly hurting despite supplements and meds. He didn't make it to his 9th birthday.
> 
> He was the reason that my last two dogs were from breeders that work and xray their dogs. No guarantee that they won't have hip or elbow issues, but a better bet than just crossing my fingers and hoping I get lucky.


Yep, I agree. Had a dog with moderate hip dysplasia, didnt bother until he was 9 or 10 when the arthritis finally caught up with him. Then he started screaming when he stood up, so I had a hip replacement done. It was that or put him down. Don't want to go down that road again if I can help it. I try to stack the deck in my favor by only buying dogs from stock who has been xrayed and certified for multiple generations.


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## Skip Morgart

Don Turnipseed said:


> Brad, I have patched more dogs up than you can imagine. Staple guns, locals, super glue, antibiotics, stitches, vet wrap, etc. You would be surprised what you learn in the real world of dogs and breeding. I have probably had in the neighborhood of 200 pups with parvo. Lost maybe 5 and none have been to a vet. If I am not mistaken, you didn't know why your dog was tracking downwind of the track you laid. You got a lot to learn about dogs son.



How were the dogs diagnosed with Parvo when you don't take them to vets? Many health issues can resemble parvo.


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## brad robert

Sara Waters said:


> Over here I am yet to find a breeding of working collies, koolies or kelpies who screen their dogs. The BC show breeders all do their dogs. So you have a choice - showbred BC with all the tests or a working bred with none. No one seems to screen working kelpies either. Most good breeders will breed from hardworking proven stockdogs especially if their dogs carry the working kelpie council registration and guarantee to work.
> 
> It is hard to guage if there is a problem because on the surface it appears rare. However most working dogs would be culled if problems show up. Most working dogs are also lean, fit and well muscled which could well mask the situation and when they get arthritic and cant work they get a bullet unless they are a favourite in which case they get to lie in the sun.
> 
> I know my working BC doesnt have the best hips most likely as a result of an imported dog being introduced into his lines. It is certainly not something you hear about very often from graziers as a significant problem.
> 
> The working kelpie in particular seems to be pretty free of most of these problems although who really knows. Certainly one of my family members who was an orthopod told me it was very rare to see a kelpie in her line of work. Dont know if it because they got shot first, but there again there are plenty of working kelpies that seem to end up in surburbia.
> 
> With my next cattle dog I am most reluctant to get one from untested lines given that they are becoming a higher risk for ED.. With working kelpies and BCs I guess I am willing to take the chance as I have no choice really.


Exactly Sarah this is what i stated earlier.I know a guy who breeds working kelpie and still works them with cattle on long droves till this day and he never would xray his stock it just seems non existant in the kelpie.So does that mean if you get a cattle dog from tested xrayed lines here it wont be a working line?


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## brad robert

Don Turnipseed said:


> Brad, I have patched more dogs up than you can imagine. Staple guns, locals, super glue, antibiotics, stitches, vet wrap, etc. You would be surprised what you learn in the real world of dogs and breeding. I have probably had in the neighborhood of 200 pups with parvo. Lost maybe 5 and none have been to a vet. If I am not mistaken, you didn't know why your dog was tracking downwind of the track you laid. You got a lot to learn about dogs son.


 Hunting is popular here you shouldnt ASSume what others experiences are. 

200 pups with parvo are you freaking kidding me if you dont go to a vet how the hell would you know i guess the world of REAL dogs and breeding has given you a Vet deg as well


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## Kadi Thingvall

brad robert said:


> How could you hunt dogs and not need veterinary care i mean any catch dog is going to get banged up ripped up and going to need antibiotics.Now if they are not catch dogs i can see them not getting hurt but why would you need such big dogs to bay boar or any game for that fact?
> 
> Are you saying if they need a vet they just die??


Do a search on this forum for "snake geronimo". I think that pretty much sums up what happens to Don's dogs when they get injured or sick.


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## Connie Sutherland

susan tuck said:


> Yep, I agree. Had a dog with moderate hip dysplasia, didnt bother until he was 9 or 10 when the arthritis finally caught up with him. Then he started screaming when he stood up, so I had a hip replacement done. It was that or put him down. Don't want to go down that road again if I can help it. *I try to stack the deck in my favor by only buying dogs from stock who has been xrayed and certified for multiple generations.*


It's hard to imagine any reason not to agree with this.


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## Don Turnipseed

Skip Morgart said:


> How were the dogs diagnosed with Parvo when you don't take them to vets? Many health issues can resemble parvo.


You and Brad can do a simple search. It as been expained several times in the past.


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## Sara Waters

brad robert said:


> Exactly Sarah this is what i stated earlier.I know a guy who breeds working kelpie and still works them with cattle on long droves till this day and he never would xray his stock it just seems non existant in the kelpie.So does that mean if you get a cattle dog from tested xrayed lines here it wont be a working line?


Yes there are a few breeders starting to xray their cattle dogs - all show breeders.

It is a conundrum. I havent thought it through yet. I will most likely try and find a working bred cattle dog. There are a few people in my state who still work them and I see then advertised in the working dog section of the rural papers occaisionally. I am very wary of certain show lines of cattle dogs as the same foundation dogs seem to pop up in dogs with known ED. I am inclined to stay away from the showbred lines regardless of their testing status as the testing seems to be a recent thing.


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## Connie Sutherland

Don Turnipseed said:


> You and Brad can do a simple search. It as been expained several times in the past.



I found threads when I used the term Parvo and your name, Don, but so far nothing about diagnosing it. Do you have a general time range (even a year)?

I'm genuinely curious. Skip is right that "many health issues can resemble parvo."


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## Don Turnipseed

brad robert said:


> Hunting is popular here you shouldnt ASSume what others experiences are.
> 
> 200 pups with parvo are you freaking kidding me if you dont go to a vet how the hell would you know i guess the world of REAL dogs and breeding has given you a Vet deg as well


Didn't have to assume anything, Brad. If you were a hunter you wouldn't have the same outlook on HD. It isn't rocket science.


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## Don Turnipseed

Connie Sutherland said:


> I found threads when I used the term Parvo and your name, Don, but so far nothing about diagnosing it. Do you have a general time range (even a year)?
> 
> I'm genuinely curious. Skip is right that "many health issues can resemble parvo."


Probably back when I joined and had the debates with Maren. You may recall the vet had me contact UC Davis.


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## Maren Bell Jones

Skip Morgart said:


> How were the dogs diagnosed with Parvo when you don't take them to vets? Many health issues can resemble parvo.


Oh, come on now, Skip. He *obviously* uses the same magical mountain man methods to diagnose a virus that kills 50% of puppies that get it to determine that the hips of the thousands of puppies he's pumped out over the years are just fine. Why waste 150K on 11 years of post high school education like I did to get my doctorate when even I won't be able to tell just from looking when you can "just know" just like he does. :lol::lol::lol:


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## Maren Bell Jones

Don Turnipseed said:


> Probably back when I joined and had the debates with Maren. You may recall the vet had me contact UC Davis.


Yeah, and I don't recall you ever providing proof that ever actually happened. Post the evidence of this. Failing that, tell me who you talked to and when you talked to them, I will call them, and I will find out. Surely any pathologist will be able to remember such an amazing phenomenon years later.


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## Don Turnipseed

Maren,,you been pretty quiet since I brought up your dogs killing other dogs in your house. Want to go there again> By the way, since you want to jump into this pond once again, I am curious as to what your GPA was that no vets around the country would hire you and you ended up having to start your little business venture. All this parvo stuff is here somewhere and I see no point in retyping it for Skip or Brad.


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## Maren Bell Jones

No, I'm really just sitting back greatly enjoying watching people besides just me call you on your shit for once.  Is my husband still upset for the mistake he made? Sure. But would he have taken that dog to the vet if he would have been alive and not let him suffer and die for two or three days with no medical attention? YES. 

I did get a job offer at a reproduction clinic, but it fell through when the construction of the new clinic wasn't going to be completed for another year. And there's no way I'm going to work at a corporate practice like Banfield. My GPA was like 2.8ish, if I recall correctly. GPA actually doesn't really matter like it does for undergrad for hiring. No biggie though. I always wanted to be a practice owner. And now I am. I have good clients and I can go to working dog trials and events when I want since I'm a small business owner instead of working for someone else. It's been really great, except book keeping is no fun. If anyone wants to do my Quickbooks in exchange for vet care, let me know. :lol:

So again...where is the proof your 200 (!!!) puppies had parvo and only 5 died?


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## Don Turnipseed

> I did get a job offer at a reproduction clinic


So prove you actually got offered a job. I find that hard to believe myself. Even if you could Maren, with a 2.8 GPA it is easy to see why you wouldn't consider a GPA important.....but of course it would be everything if you were even close to a 4.0....maybe would have even had a few more job offers. Since you got a 2.8 it isn't that important.

Thousands of pups.....your math skills really suck....or lik everything else you say....was it just for impressions sake?


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## Joby Becker

Did I miss it somewhere?

HOW did you treat these 200 puppies with Parvo Don??? Or are you saying they just overcame the parvo? like super puppies?


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## Don Turnipseed

Joby, that is in previous posts also.


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## Maren Bell Jones

Don Turnipseed said:


> So prove you actually got offered a job. I find that hard to believe myself. Even if you could Maren, with a 2.8 GPA it is easy to see why you wouldn't consider a GPA important.....but of course it would be everything if you were even close to a 4.0....maybe would have even had a few more job offers. Since you got a 2.8 it isn't that important.
> 
> Thousands of pups.....your math skills really suck....or lik everything else you say....was it just for impressions sake?


You can ask Dr. Asheley Winters (who I believe is a member on this forum, though she doesn't post often). The job offer I got was with her boss south of Salt Lake City. I've got sheep herding to go to in a few minutes and a house call right after that. Save the banter and go back to the original point:



> So again...where is the proof your 200 (!!!) puppies had parvo and only 5 died?


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## Connie Sutherland

Don Turnipseed said:


> So prove you actually got offered a job.



What does this have to do with ANYTHING on this thread?


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## Skip Morgart

Connie- it doesn't...but it's his usual way of redirecting and deflecting so that he doesn't have to back up his stories....but I think most here realize that.


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## Connie Sutherland

Don Turnipseed said:


> You and Brad can do a simple search. It as been expained several times in the past.



I found these parvo posts:

http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f25/parvo-question-11858/index2.html#post134489


http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f25/parvo-19866/index2.html#post265219


http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f25/vaccinations-3490/index7.html#post41151


There were a lot more.


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## Don Turnipseed

Nothing...but neither has anything Maren posted about parvo. It will settle once again because, as usual, she has to go work her dog and I am going to the valley with the pups so they view both houses as theirs. Cheers


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## Skip Morgart

Connie Sutherland said:


> I found these parvo posts:
> 
> http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f25/parvo-question-11858/index2.html#post134489
> 
> 
> http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f25/parvo-19866/index2.html#post265219
> 
> 
> http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f25/vaccinations-3490/index7.html#post41151
> 
> 
> There were a lot more.


..and in the 1st one he says.." never lost a pup", while in other "stories" that is different. Normally, I've heard that isolation of the infected pup from all other dogs is very important, but it's clear this wasn't done with any of his either.


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## brad robert

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Oh, come on now, Skip. He *obviously* uses the same magical mountain man methods to diagnose a virus that kills 50% of puppies that get it to determine that the hips of the thousands of puppies he's pumped out over the years are just fine. Why waste 150K on 11 years of post high school education like I did to get my doctorate when even I won't be able to tell just from looking when you can "just know" just like he does. :lol::lol::lol:


That is the right elbow the takedown and the rear naked choke!!!


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## Joby Becker

brad robert said:


> That is the right elbow the takedown and the rear naked choke!!!


is the elbow dysplastic?


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