# what ever happened to just training your dog ?



## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

So being my bored little self this afternoon I decided to throw myself onto the board and read all the topics that I tend to not read on purpose since im pretty sure they will irritate the everlasting hell out of me at some point and make me rant and piss me of severly.....

Im amazed tho....hell im more then amazed! im just completely awestruck at the terminology thats being swung around on this board.....it looks like people have stopped looking at dogs and have hung themselves up on terminology only!

nervy, possesive, nature, nurture, drive, not enough drive, to much drive, to little confidence, to much confidence, fear, anger, barking on command....testing (ARE YOU ****ING KIDDING ME PEOPLE???????) blablablablablabla...I could go on for hours with all the friggin words thrown around when relating to dogs on this forum...the one thing that seems to be forgotten tho is the actual dog itself!

so im going to RANT!

people are entirly way to ****in busy with testing, terminology, thinking, talking, asking and lets not forget the everloving dogphyscology factor, to actualy see what they have got in their hands and to make it work. They are so blinded by all these pretty words and ideas and plans that in the mean time they actualy forget they have a dog to work with who in fact will do very nicely without all the terminology to begin with...when are all you people finaly going to do what you are supposed to do and start training your dog ? while you are all strugling so hard with the words to describing your dog, in the most silly way possible, he is going to hell in a handbasket! instead of sticking so much time in describing how preydriven your dog might be or how nervy he might appear, stick time in working the issues you are describing, your dog is way better served with that then any terminology that anyone can ever come up with....and while we are at it can we PLEASE go back to treating the dogs to what they really are ? DOGS! not humans with humans ideas and plans and thoughts about how and what when it comes to them.....how about starting to train them instead of terminologizing them to death!

ooh and I better mention this: this isnt a post at anyone in particular...it is a backlash of me reading up on several topics today that have basicly stunned the hell out of me and made me want to poke my eyes out with a blunt spoon!


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Oh....you silver tongue rascal you, don't you hold back now ya hear ! :lol:

What on earth would folks talk about then ?? Dog training is very very academic and cool didn't you know ?

LMAO :lol:


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

So does this mean you don't like Corvettes?:razz:


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Lee H Sternberg said:


> So does this mean you don't like Corvettes?:razz:


depends on the color :lol:


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## sarah lewis (May 27, 2011)




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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

It's true, Alice. It's a reason why I don't come on here as often as I used to.

I'm used to being out on the field, watching the dog, assessing whether he understands or not. Watching whether he understands and doesn't want to even though he has been taught and has shown he understands.

Of course, on a forum you have to "word it out" but I feel sometimes that the terminology tends to sufficate me.

I realise that I am doing whatever the "terminology experts" spout, but I have never bothered to put this to paper.

I would also welcome a bit of "damned plain English" in the future.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

sarah lewis said:


>


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## Larry Krohn (Nov 18, 2010)

alice bezemer said:


> so being my bored little self this afternoon i decided to throw myself onto the board and read all the topics that i tend to not read on purpose since im pretty sure they will irritate the everlasting hell out of me at some point and make me rant and piss me of severly.....
> 
> Im amazed tho....hell im more then amazed! Im just completely awestruck at the terminology thats being swung around on this board.....it looks like people have stopped looking at dogs and have hung themselves up on terminology only!
> 
> ...


amen


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

:grin: So tell me how you really feel Alice! Personally, I feel some terminology is a must. Confidence is the only one I can think of though. Everything else is is useless.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

if the dog could type, could clear a lot up.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

It serves good agitation purpose I think, kind of stimulating in an odd kind of way.


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Alice Bezemer said:


> So being my bored little self this afternoon I decided to throw myself onto the board and read all the topics that I tend to not read on purpose since im pretty sure they will irritate the everlasting hell out of me at some point and make me rant and piss me of severly.....
> 
> Im amazed tho....hell im more then amazed! im just completely awestruck at the terminology thats being swung around on this board.....it looks like people have stopped looking at dogs and have hung themselves up on terminology only!
> 
> ...


Amen . =D>


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

i would agree some of these recent posts have gotten carried away terminology wise, but most of the time i read it as someone who is trying to clarify something they wrote that they felt wasn't understood the way they intended the first time around, or they weren't sure what somebody meant when they said it the first time...does tend to get things a little "overhypothetical" (just to throw one more big word for you to puke on)

but to throw in your two cents and say it's ALL a bunch of crap is worth about that much, imnshfo 

and i also wanted to add that it's no always bad to have a quiet dog that doesn't bark, and to think barking is a display of anything close to confidence that the SchH people seem to demand just shows how far that game has strayed from it's early days,,,,,,,,if i was lucky enuff to ever get a strong confident dog that didn't bark to train for PROTECTION, i'm not sure i would spend much time at all frustrating it for a nice B/H effect......that's what yorkies are for and many are more fearless than the average gsd these days


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

rick smith said:


> that's what yorkies are for and many are more fearless than the average gsd these days


I have seen it with my own eyes, even in the face of certain death..


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Ah yes Yorkies are very good punting dogs . As for barking it is very important in PSD work .


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> I have seen it with my own eyes, even in the face of certain death..


Me too...tea cup size!


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

YAY ALICE!!!!!!! All the terms in the world don't mean squat to the dog, and nobody agrees on the exact definition of most all of the terms. Sometimes it's as if people are arguing without even understanding exactly what the other person is talking about anyway.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Alice i think you are being arrogant and forgetting we have not all been training dogs from day dot. terminology is just a means of PEOPLE communicating unambiguosly. at your level you have just internalised what you see to the point it is just an intuitive/instinctual thing that you don't even have to process intellectually - well good for you, i hope i can be at that point one day - betwwen now and then (if i ever get to then "then") then precise words and intellectual wrangling will have to fill the gaps especially when discussing an issue with another person - on line makes it even more important to define terms.

so sir with repect can u try not being such a dick - yes most of us (well me anyways) are not at your level, would it be too much to ask that u get off yr high horse and contribute something positive.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> > terminology is just a means of PEOPLE communicating unambiguosly. at your level you have just internalised what you see to the point it is just an intuitive/instinctual thing that you don't even have to process intellectually


Actually Peter, I think you've raised an important or at least, an interesting point here.

The instinctive/intuitive thing is not something I believe someone develops into, either you have it or you don't.

Some learn about dogs academically and hence enjoy to talk about it intellectually, and others are much more instinctive in their development. There are a couple of posters on here who to all intents and appearances combine both in my mind, but they are few and not the norm.

Just like apples and oranges :-D, us folks!


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

susan tuck said:


> YAY ALICE!!!!!!! All the terms in the world don't mean squat to the dog, and nobody agrees on the exact definition of most all of the terms. Sometimes it's as if people are arguing without even understanding exactly what the other person is talking about anyway.


I've thought the same thing . I've read some arguements on here where I swear they are actually in agreement but don't realize it because their definitions of certain popular terms are completely different . I think many need to make this stuff more difficult then it is because of a need to feel self important and that it has very little to do with actual dog training .


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

"The instinctive/intuitive thing is not something I believe someone develops into, either you have it or you don't."


Maggie every learner needs scaffolding n clear communication in the early stages, call it training wheels. athltes spend years "dry running" a particular swing, a particular techique whatever often in slow motion at some point their muscles develop a memory for a particular physical motion at that point their brain switches off n they just execute without thinking. does evry athlete end up with the exact same profiency level - of course not do all end up competent - sure.

same thing here i think, no need to be all elitist n look down on people that aren't their yet.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> "The instinctive/intuitive thing is not something I believe someone develops into, either you have it or you don't."
> 
> 
> Maggie every learner needs scaffolding n clear communication in the early stages, call it training wheels. athltes spend years "dry running" a particular swing, a particular techique whatever often in slow motion at some point their muscles develop a memory for a particular physical motion at that point their brain switches off n they just execute without thinking. does evry athlete end up with the exact same profiency level - of course not do all end up competent - sure.
> ...


I think you're off base Peter and my comment has nothing to do with being elitist, other than perhaps the few posters I referred to as at least, appearing to be gifted in the sense they are both academic and instinctive.

If you do not posess this instinctive quality, you will not get there, no matter how much learning you do. It is like, some people can read a dog with minimal reading and others, can read a dog with no reading, and some people will take a long long time to get even a clue.

Muscle has memory yeah, instinct isn't a muscle and cannot be compared in such a fashion I don't think.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Alice Bezemer said:


> So being my bored little self this afternoon I decided to throw myself onto the board and read all the topics that I tend to not read on purpose since im pretty sure they will irritate the everlasting hell out of me at some point and make me rant and piss me of severly.....
> 
> Im amazed tho....hell im more then amazed! im just completely awestruck at the terminology thats being swung around on this board.....it looks like people have stopped looking at dogs and have hung themselves up on terminology only!
> 
> ...


What have you done lately ??


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

I personally believe the best start for people here in the states is to get in a SCH club with a good helper and watch them make/create dogs that are shitters. They build these dogs and that's training. Too many people want to read the psychological BS instead of learning the dog. They ruin puppies and wash them out due to their own **** ups by putting pressure on puppies and not knowing it. With shitty SCH dogs(especially show lines) the dogs are coddled. It makes one think about every move they make with the dog. Everyone now wants to be the almighty teacher(my way or the highway) or a trial decoy and they have zero clue about progression so they go from one thing to the next, watch videos and talk psychology but in all reality they just can't do it! I have a lot to learn and I can learn from everybody including new people but sometimes the post are a bit ridiculous! More training videos please!


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

To add to this, I think with Wikipedia and all the other access people who are half way smart can read all this operative(spelling?)conditioning shit, prey drive, bridges, and all the other stuff and come on here and talk the talk. They may have never trained a dog to sit but they have all the terminology down.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> Alice i think you are being arrogant and forgetting we have not all been training dogs from day dot. terminology is just a means of PEOPLE communicating unambiguosly. at your level you have just internalised what you see to the point it is just an intuitive/instinctual thing that you don't even have to process intellectually - well good for you, i hope i can be at that point one day - betwwen now and then (if i ever get to then "then") then precise words and intellectual wrangling will have to fill the gaps especially when discussing an issue with another person - on line makes it even more important to define terms.
> 
> so sir with repect can u try not being such a dick - yes most of us (well me anyways) are not at your level, would it be too much to ask that u get off yr high horse and contribute something positive.


WOW, you're joking, right?.... for your sake, I hope your joking!!!!!!


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## Anna Kasho (Jan 16, 2008)

Timothy Stacy said:


> To add to this, I think with Wikipedia and all the other access people who are half way smart can read all this operative(spelling?)conditioning shit, prey drive, bridges, and all the other stuff and come on here and talk the talk. They may have never trained a dog to sit but they have all the terminology down.


I half wish everyone did read all about the terminology. It drives me nuts to see people butcher the "classical" definitions of positive-negative, reinforcement-punishment. Negative does not mean "bad" or positive "good" in this context. LOL


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Anna Kasho said:


> I half wish everyone did read all about the terminology. It drives me nuts to see people butcher the "classical" definitions of positive-negative, reinforcement-punishment. Negative does not mean "bad" or positive "good" in this context. LOL


I never heard one person in Holland speak in any of those terms and Rick has never heard anyone ever use any of that terminology in France, I guess they just train their dogs!


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## Anna Kasho (Jan 16, 2008)

Timothy Stacy said:


> I never heard one person in Holland speak in any of those terms and Rick has never heard anyone ever use any of that terminology in France, I guess they just train their dogs!


They probably have their own terminology to describe what the dog is doing and how to go about changing it. Convention, habits, cultural differences. Behaviorism and learning theory have only recently been adopted into mainstream dog training in the USA, I bet the dog culture in France and Holland predates that...


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

One of the best natural dog handlers I know is one of the trainers in our K9 unit . He took 2 very different a difficult dogs and turned them into awesome street dogs . He was also a 2 time National Champ in competitio with his first and could have been with his 2nd but chose not to compete . I learned a ton just watching him handle his dog . He knows none of this terminology but I understand what he is saying when it comes to training PSDs better then anyone .


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## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

Alice Bezemer said:


> So being my bored little self this afternoon I decided to throw myself onto the board and read all the topics that I tend to not read on purpose since im pretty sure they will irritate the everlasting hell out of me at some point and make me rant and piss me of severly.....
> 
> Im amazed tho....hell im more then amazed! im just completely awestruck at the terminology thats being swung around on this board.....it looks like people have stopped looking at dogs and have hung themselves up on terminology only!
> 
> ...


Nice, but training is hard work and talk is easy + makes one look smart, so go figure :evil:


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Anna Kasho said:


> They probably have their own terminology to describe what the dog is doing and how to go about changing it. Convention, habits, cultural differences. Behaviorism and learning theory have only recently been adopted into mainstream dog training in the USA, I bet the dog culture in France and Holland predates that...


You do realize Alice is in the Netherlands, right? Gillian is in Switzerland. Also my German friends say the same thing: too much talking, better to shup up and train and if you can't do that then shut up and watch training.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

susan tuck said:


> You do realize Alice is in the Netherlands, right? Gillian is in Switzerland. Also my German friends say the same thing: too much talking, better to shup up and train and if you can't do that then shut up and watch training.


Is that anything like "Keep your mouth shut and let people think you're stupid or open it and remove all doubt?"


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## Anna Kasho (Jan 16, 2008)

susan tuck said:


> You do realize Alice is in the Netherlands, right? Gillian is in Switzerland. Also my German friends say the same thing: too much talking, better to shup up and train and if you can't do that then shut up and watch training.


So what to they do when they have a training problem? I'm thinking you still have to verbalise to get your point across. The most popular teachers are great communicators, may not be the best at their chosen subjest but if they can get others to understand something... 

I actually agree with training and learning by observation, but hey, this is the internet. It's all words here. :lol:


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

maggie fraser said:


> Actually Peter, I think you've raised an important or at least, an interesting point here.
> 
> The instinctive/intuitive thing is not something I believe someone develops into, either you have it or you don't.
> 
> ...



95% in agreement!
A few are born with it. a few can learn it. A few can get good at it without really understanding why. Others just do what they are told and will never understand why or even what they are doing.
Many are just clueless without someone holding their hand the whole way.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Anna Kasho said:


> So what to they do when they have a training problem? I'm thinking you still have to verbalise to get your point across. The most popular teachers are great communicators, may not be the best at their chosen subjest but if they can get others to understand something...
> 
> I actually agree with training and learning by observation, but hey, this is the internet. It's all words here. :lol:


That's the point, you can't learn how to train a dog on the internet or from reading a book. A person says "watch my dog, see what he's doing, got any ideas?" Then the person says "yeah, try this" and shows the person what they might do to fix it. It's all that techno babble that is so hideously useless, learn from doing and from watching.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Susan i got some way good raw recipes from the internet - so there.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

susan tuck said:


> That's the point, you can't learn how to train a dog on the internet or from reading a book. A person says "watch my dog, see what he's doing, got any ideas?" Then the person says "yeah, try this" and shows the person what they might do to fix it. It's all that techno babble that is so hideously useless, learn from doing and from watching.


AND you do this in person, not over the computer, actual face to face interaction, everyone all in the same place you...your dog ....other people...... their dogs....outside training together in the fresh air...reality not cyber space!!

Also it's a known fact people screw up their dogs all the time by trying something dumb some dumbass showed them over the internet.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

This is some really petty shit to let ruin your peace of mind.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Susan, so noone ever screwed a dog up before the internet was invented - please.

the internet makes information possible nothing else - whether the information is useless, harmful or beneficial is completely a function of the users sense. the only benefit with the internet over a book or video, apart from all the crap info/opinions available, is that it is a 2-way process like this forum ideas can be challenged and flamed interactively in real time (virtually) - a book or video is strictly 1-way.

there a lot of idiot trainers that have never used the internet so yr argument is crap.


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## Laney Rein (Feb 9, 2011)

And not all of us train or even want sch dogs so don't care. All I care about is the different ideas, info, and conversation. There is more to a dog than bite and bark. It all depends on what you want or expect out of the dog. My rat terrier would seriously protect me before my Mal and I prefer it that way. So to each his own. My Mal is a scent detection dog and has to work around people safely. I prefer him to be social.......and confident.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Another thing: People are all the time so busy describing and analyzing their dogs to figure out what's wrong with the dog but you know what? Most of the time it's not the dog. I know some really great trainers and when people come to them with problems it's rarely the dog who ends up getting the strongest corrections, those go to the guy on the other end of the leash.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

susan tuck said:


> Another thing: People are all the time so busy describing and analyzing their dogs to figure out what's wrong with the dog but you know what? Most of the time it's not the dog. I know some really great trainers and when people come to them with problems it's rarely the dog who ends up getting the strongest corrections, those go to the guy on the other end of the leash.



The biggest problem any dog has is the turd stuck on the other end of the leash. :twisted:


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> Susan, so noone ever screwed a dog up before the internet was invented - please.
> 
> the internet makes information possible nothing else - whether the information is useless, harmful or beneficial is completely a function of the users sense. the only benefit with the internet over a book or video, apart from all the crap info/opinions available, is that it is a 2-way process like this forum ideas can be challenged and flamed interactively in real time (virtually) - a book or video is strictly 1-way.
> 
> there a lot of idiot trainers that have never used the internet so yr argument is crap.


Excuse me, but where did I say no one ever screwed up a dog prior to the Internet? 

Also before we go any further can you answer my first question because I really want to know, the one where I asked you if you were being serious in your original response to Alice? You know the one, where you called her an arrogant dick and told her she should bget off her high horse and contribute something?


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

In future you might want to keep in mind it's customary to include a "lol" or a "lmao" or some other endearing but easily remember little Internet acronym, to indicate your humorous intent. lol, lol


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## Sandra King (Mar 29, 2011)

Bob Scott said:


> 95% in agreement!
> A few are born with it. a few can learn it. A few can get good at it without really understanding why. Others just do what they are told and will never understand why or even what they are doing.
> Many are just clueless without someone holding their hand the whole way.


I witnessed people that had no clue what they were doing but it worked... they had an instinct and were able to teach dogs anything they wanted without ever having taken a class. It came naturally to them. Some people have a gift, others haven't... nothing wrong with that. We can't all have it.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Alice needs to come here and see how in the dark most people are about training. She sits over in Holland where KNPV is part of the culture and wonders why people here are confused by terminology.

Well, most people don't have a club to train in that has been around for more that 5 years. The TD is someone who knows more than they do, but not nearly what you have over there.

Come here, and see how it is. Lets see how successful you are when you come away from all that experience. : )


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

susan tuck said:


> That's the point, you can't learn how to train a dog on the internet or from reading a book. A person says "watch my dog, see what he's doing, got any ideas?" Then the person says "yeah, try this" and shows the person what they might do to fix it. It's all that techno babble that is so hideously useless, learn from doing and from watching.


Except that many people put a video of their dog up, and then ask someone on the internet for their input. At which point you have to be able to describe it in words, because you can't just go show the person what you mean, when you are 5 states apart.

Although I agree sometimes the techno babble gets in the way, there really isn't any other way to communicate with people on something like an internet forum, it's not like we can just all go outside together and show each other what we mean. So without using various descriptions, how would people on an internet forum go about discussing dogs, their training, their breeding, their jobs, etc?


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

so we started the thread with a quibble about terminolgy discussions being a waste of time and have progressing to a meta-discussion on discussions.

think i will hang around to see how this pans out.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> Except that many people put a video of their dog up, and then ask someone on the internet for their input. At which point you have to be able to describe it in words, because you can't just go show the person what you mean, when you are 5 states apart.
> 
> Although I agree sometimes the techno babble gets in the way, there really isn't any other way to communicate with people on something like an internet forum, it's not like we can just all go outside together and show each other what we mean. So without using various descriptions, how would people on an internet forum go about discussing dogs, their training, their breeding, their jobs, etc?


You don't need all the technobabble to discuss dogs on the Internet, especially since there are very few people who actually agree on the definition of much of said technobabble. Take fight drive for instance. So many people are happy to argue for days over whether or not fight drive exists, knowing full well they are arguing with someone who probably defines the term differently. That's not only futile it's insane. Same thing happens when someone throws up a video, many times it reminds me of the parable about the blind monks describing an elephant.


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Problem is, imo, the big distances in the US, like Kadi said, and hardly no club culture, like Jeff said. So yes, being able to talk dogs, dogtraining, and problems in dogtraining is done by internet. But if every one has a (slightly) differtent idea by which is meant by certain terminology it is hard indeed. You''ll get lost in the semantics.

The Europeans on this board have a much better access to another trainer, club etc., dogtraining is a subculture on it self. And yes we learn much by "watch training, ask explanation or just watch". And a working dog, esp in KNPV is a working dog and treated that way (usually no pet). IPO (in the Netherlands) is slightly different 'cause usually the dog is a pet which is worked.

For me: I don't know any better than to see dogtraining or trials (KNPV and later also IPO) since I was very young. My father took me to training with him since I was about 18 mo. I also see it with our oldest (2 yr 4 mo) who knows what comes next in the program, shout commands where they have to be given etc. Heck, I am raised similar to the dogs: very black & white. Actually Dennis gets commands too sometimes :-\" 
What Im trying to say that some training methods are so "normal" in my mindset, that you just do it/act (or not) to it.

Terminology will also here slightly differ, but by seeing the dog work, see the trainer work, and discuss it with your own training group is the way to learn. Besides that: it doesn't matter if you encounter (some) troubles in training, training a dog is a learning curve (for you and the dog) and no dog or trainer is flawless. If you're good at it, you'll make less mistakes or correct your mistakes earlier.

My dad once told me: "you can call yourself a trainer at the moment that you'll know your behavior will result to over a year"... I didn't reach that stage (yet, and don't think i ever will), but reading a dog is a 2nd nature for me.


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Alice needs to come here and see how in the dark most people are about training. She sits over in Holland where KNPV is part of the culture and wonders why people here are confused by terminology.
> 
> Well, most people don't have a club to train in that has been around for more that 5 years. The TD is someone who knows more than they do, but not nearly what you have over there.
> 
> Come here, and see how it is. Lets see how successful you are when you come away from all that experience. : )


Jeff .... sounds like my neck of the woods LOL!! Always boils down to the wife and I working our dogs. But still fun and rewarding!!


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> Alice i think you are being arrogant and forgetting we have not all been training dogs from day dot. terminology is just a means of PEOPLE communicating unambiguosly. at your level you have just internalised what you see to the point it is just an intuitive/instinctual thing that you don't even have to process intellectually - well good for you, i hope i can be at that point one day - betwwen now and then (if i ever get to then "then") then precise words and intellectual wrangling will have to fill the gaps especially when discussing an issue with another person - on line makes it even more important to define terms.
> 
> *so sir with repect can u try not being such a dick - yes most of us (well me anyways) are not at your level, would it be too much to ask that u get off yr high horse and contribute something positive.*



:lol: sure girlfriend ! let me get right on that for ya  did I step on your toes dear ? I had better be carefull before you start screaming blue murder at the mods again huh


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Let me say that the post I made never was ment to be arrogant even tho It might have sounded that way...

the thing is tho that things are discused and discussed some more and then discussed even more, terminology gets thrown in and large expensive words are used to reinforce some obscure point that in the end most people dont even understand...people are going into psycology so deep when it comes to dogs that they seem to forget the dog in the process! I am not saying I am a great trainer...I am not saying that I know all the answers to all the problems....Im saying, take a little bit more time in looking at your dog and what he shows you instead of trying to think up terminology's to describe his behaviour!

the simplest solution usualy proves to be the best one....but all i tend to see here are solutions that have been so well thought out with somany different corners and curves that im amazed the dog actualy learns something at the end of the day....I know things are different on the other side of the water and its easy for me to judge from my side but I feel that dogs dont know if they are in the US or the EU or wherever the hell they are....they learn by simple black and white means and not terminology that gets thrown at them which they cant even comprehend to begin with....


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> What have you done lately ??



welllll I went shopping this morning, bought me some new shoes and some underwear and a new shirt that shows lots of cleavage! appart from that not much im afraid....am waiting for my pup to grow up so I can slap it around with some terminology to see how that will work out for me


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

Alice Bezemer said:


> the simplest solution usualy proves to be the best one.......[/QUOTE/]
> 
> In a more scientific way Occam's Razor


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Alice Bezemer said:


> welllll I went shopping this morning, bought me some new shoes and *some underwear *and a new shirt that shows lots of cleavage! appart from that not much im afraid....am waiting for my pup to grow up so I can slap it around with some terminology to see how that will work out for me


what cut???


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

WOW there's even a name for it: Instruction Creep: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instruction_creep


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

I enjoy this forum and I have gotten good training ideas in the past from here . It's the only forum I participate in now . Initially when it started I just got into it for the training conversations (actual descriptions of techniques) because of that I didn't participate as much as I do now but there were always some little nugget of info I could get and try when I encountered a certain dog problem . Seems we don't discuss training in that way here much anymore . It's a battle of gargon and beliefs now . So much gets wasted on each other defines certain things . My advice would be to stay away from terms we all know will sidetrack a dicussion and instead if you don't have access to video describe the dog's behavior not with terms but a description of what the dog is physically and/or vocally showing you . I think that would be much better then saying the dogs say " showing defense or showing prey , fight drive " whatever because it seems everyone has different pictures in their heads of what those terms look like . That's only half the problem though then we have the folks who need to use different terms because they have an emotional reaction to the terms others use and then there's the folks who speak in riddles and we have to guess at wtf they are saying . I know it being an internet forum makes things tough but I think it would make things easier .


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Joby Becker said:


> what cut???



french O


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## Randy Allen (Apr 18, 2008)

Video! we need video for proof of this so called French cut!

LOL


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Jim Nash said:


> That's only half the problem though then we have the folks who need to use different terms because they have an emotional reaction to the terms others use and then there's the folks who speak in riddles and we have to guess at wtf they are saying . I know it being an internet forum makes things tough but I think it would make things easier .


I've said it many time; dog training ain't rocket science. My "customer" sees me with regularity. We need to be able to converse about what's working and what isn't. The standards are clear; ie, " On command, the dog will pursue, engage and remain engaged until commanded to do something else." The measurement is simple; "the dog either does or it doesn't." The only time "terminology" really comes into play is when on the witness stand testifying against the "defense whore of the month". If you've been keeping up with Fleck and Nope's websites, we know who that is. 

DFrost


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Alice just remember you started this . Currently my thoughts on dog training is Alice playing with her puppy in panties and a lowcut top . Sorry but it's all your fault .


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

not a whole lot of terminology needed there. ha ha


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)




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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Jim Nash said:


> Alice just remember you started this . Currently my thoughts on dog training is Alice playing with her puppy in panties and a lowcut top . Sorry but it's all your fault .


Why do I get blamed ? Its not like I did anything at all to give you these very uncatholic ideas :-\"


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Joby Becker said:


>


Joby ? just for that picture alone someone should really beat you senseless!

atleast have the common sence to put a Malinois or Dutchie up....a friggin poodle ? are you KIDDING ME JOBY 

besides.... IM BLOND ya ninny ! 

:lol:


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

David Frost said:


> not a whole lot of terminology needed there. ha ha



trust me, someone will think some up anyways just to make things more complicated :lol:


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## Steve Strom (May 25, 2008)

How about skipping the big words completely and get right to cleavage videos? Alice, not you Joby.


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

ok, topic is down the drain now.

Ehm, i don´t think Alice would like to handle Caylinn with only panties and a cleavage shirt on....her skin will be ruined by very sharp puppy teeth. Wich reminds me, PICS of Caylinn, Alice!!


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> ok, topic is down the drain now.
> 
> Ehm, i don´t think Alice would like to handle Caylinn with only panties and a cleavage shirt on....her skin will be ruined by very sharp puppy teeth. Wich reminds me, PICS of Caylinn, Alice!!



actualy 4 inch plated steel armour to protect any precious assets is in order where lil miss teethy is concerned....let me tell ya she is a reall "Bitch" in every meaning of the word :lol: Pics will be up tomorow im hoping since someone (im not mentioning names but it has teensy tiny teeth) chewed my cameracord to hell and i need to get a new one :-(


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

hey, don´t complain. Her 2 bro´s will not leave for another 2 days, and her sister-who was supposed to also fly wednesday, but was cancelled last wednesday :roll:- are still here. Not to mention her 3 halfsisters are also here....


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> hey, don´t complain. Her 2 bro´s will not leave for another 2 days, and her sister-who was supposed to also fly wednesday, but was cancelled last wednesday :roll:- are still here. Not to mention her 3 halfsisters are also here....


haha


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Alice Bezemer said:


> :lol: sure girlfriend ! let me get right on that for ya  did I step on your toes dear ? I had better be carefull before you start screaming blue murder at the mods again huh
> 
> thanks for calling me "dear" n girlfriend, i don't get that much affection usually :grin:
> 
> Alice my only contention is; with all the threads going on constantly if one irks you use your intiative to aaah not participate in it - wow how hard is that.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Alice Bezemer said:


> welllll I went shopping this morning, bought me some new shoes and some underwear and a new shirt that shows lots of cleavage! appart from that not much im afraid....am waiting for my pup to grow up so I can slap it around with some terminology to see how that will work out for me


Thanks, that just cost me 2 nights sleep.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

thread officially dead


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> Alice Bezemer said:
> 
> 
> > :lol: sure girlfriend ! let me get right on that for ya  did I step on your toes dear ? I had better be carefull before you start screaming blue murder at the mods again huh
> ...


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> Thanks, that just cost me 2 nights sleep.


your very welcome :lol:


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> Alice my only contention is; with all the threads going on constantly if one irks you use your intiative to aaah not participate in it - wow how hard is that.


Good advise Peter, maybe you should reread it and take your own advise


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Or .... wait, now, hear me out. I know how crazy it sounds.

But we could discuss the thread's topic!

I know, I know .... it's a long shot.


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Or .... wait, now, hear me out. I know how crazy it sounds.
> 
> But we could discuss the thread's topic!
> 
> I know, I know .... it's a long shot.


Dont be silly Connie :|


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Alice Bezemer said:


> Peter Cavallaro said:
> 
> 
> > your welcome sweetcheeks!
> ...


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Alice if ya teeth aren't all your own disregard previous post .


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Or .... wait, now, hear me out. I know how crazy it sounds.
> 
> But we could discuss the thread's topic!
> 
> I know, I know .... it's a long shot.


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> Alice Bezemer said:
> 
> 
> > Peter Cavallaro said:
> ...


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Alice done deal, hormones back in check - dumb, very dumb, very male... male here. but got it under control now.

so back to the topic - which was - oh yeah, so anyhoo there are a range of members here fom ones i'm guessing like yourself that have developed umpteen dogs to a high standard - you, guessing again, live in an area where there is an established culture of dog training excellence for generations possibly 100+ years, there are any number of quality prospects available and any number of experienced trainers within a stones throw of yr house. (all this is guesswork).

given that context no doubt in your culture there is a "steady-state", "consensus" view on terminology etc. flick over to possibly is a big chunk of the rest of us; first timers, isolated, no training partners within 100 miles, no intergenerational shared knowledge, no established dog culture... no nothin.

the internet even with its abysmal signal to noise ratio does provide a platform to test ideas, challenge ideas etc. regardless of all the crap, hype, BS, lies, misconceptions inherent in every public forum my dogs are having a better life because of these discussions...and thats it as far as where i'm coming from.


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## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

Alice Bezemer;275717Now as Conny stated said:


> Party poopers :evil:


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## Adi Ibrahimbegovic (Nov 21, 2008)

Nevermind the pup or working the dogs, let me see the shirt with a lot of cleavage!

Signed:
Rep. Anthony Wiener



Alice Bezemer said:


> welllll I went shopping this morning, bought me some new shoes and some underwear and a new shirt that shows lots of cleavage! appart from that not much im afraid....am waiting for my pup to grow up so I can slap it around with some terminology to see how that will work out for me


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## Donna DeYoung (Jan 29, 2010)

"The instinctive/intuitive thing is not something I believe someone develops into, either you have it or you don't."

So you are you born with "it" and then develop "it" from a young age? Can older people catch on and develop it as well?( I don't think so.) I think once you have it as a younster, you can develop it and then get more finessed and knowledgable through education. That's where terminology comes in handy.

and then there are the people who have IT, who are also capable of sharing that knowledge by words, actions, or video. That's where terminology also comes in handy.

Obviously, the best way to learn and become a better trainer is by taking advantage of everything available - club (see dog training in action and perhaps even do so w your own dog on a regular basis), books (read the theory), and video (watch the theory). Reading words only doesn't cut it.

This forum is probably the least valuable of the information out there. \\/. The best info I'm getting is from watching different dogs w/ different drives being worked at my club.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

susan tuck said:


> Another thing: People are all the time so busy describing and analyzing their dogs to figure out what's wrong with the dog but you know what? Most of the time it's not the dog. I know some really great trainers and when people come to them with problems it's rarely the dog who ends up getting the strongest corrections, those go to the guy on the other end of the leash.


Tuck can you repreach this?!
Dog training isn't rocket science and dog misbehaviors are alot like kid issues; adult made and adults don't seem to want to fix them...unless it's in a pill!


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

@Alice, feeling better yet? I call all this character building threads...got lots. Does anyone want ME to translate?\\/:twisted:


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

This is a GLOBAL forum. There are dog handlers on here from all over Europe, US, South America, Canada, Australia, Asia, etc. etc.

As far as I know, some very good dogs have been imported from Germany to the US, since at least 1970 maybe, correct me if I am wrong. 

The problem of the distances in such a country as the US are appreciated. But, judging a dog from a video is second rate. Even if it is all you have to go by in the US, it is still second rate.

Many Germans have been to the US to give Seminars, the latest of which, I see is Jogi Zank. I have never been to his seminars but believe they are very good.

Alice is not arrogant, she is merely stating how they train, which, if you kept in touch with her, you in the US could attain yourselves!!

Swiss dog handlers / trainers have often an aversion to the "grösser Kanton" (larger County) but, let's face it, here are the most GSDs, and I'm only now talking of Leistungshunde (working dogs).

Switzerlamd is home to a great number of good Malinois.

I have read a number of posts that ridicule the Germans and I have to say, this is entirely stupid, both here in Europe and over the pond.

I repeat, after reading Alice's thread:

Why can't we write about the dog as we see it - forget the terminology for once.


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Gillian , I agree . I'm not sure if you have this going on over there but I think another thing that leads to this excessive terminology over here is the use of dogs here to solve or help with peoples emotional prolems here . They are now being used to help with many folks ill's . I'm not just referring to actual therapy dogs. I think over here they are used as therapy dogs by many who don't even know they are using them that why . It's a cultural thing here I think where the dogs become an emotional crutch in all sorts of ways. We have the folks with the furbabies , the attentions seekers(dogwalkers who aproach everyone wether you like it or not), animal hoarders and then some folks who "train" their dogs or others. The latter need the terminology to give others that don't know any better the illusion that what they are doing is more than what it is so they can feel more important. Imo , its more about them then it is about the dog . If it was truely about the dogs they wouldn't be making things so damned difficult .


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

You also need new terminology to write a book, do seminars, or to stand out. I mean you can't write a book and say the same thing everyone else does. 

DFrost


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Howard Gaines III said:


> @Alice, feeling better yet? I call all this character building threads...got lots. Does anyone want ME to translate?\\/:twisted:



yep feeling better Howard....and please no....you dont need to translate anything....I dont understand what you are talking about 99% of the time as it is...lets not make it a full 100 huh :lol:


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Jim Nash said:


> Gillian , I agree . I'm not sure if you have this going on over there but I think another thing that leads to this excessive terminology over here is the use of dogs here to solve or help with peoples emotional prolems here . They are now being used to help with many folks ill's . I'm not just referring to actual therapy dogs. I think over here they are used as therapy dogs by many who don't even know they are using them that why . It's a cultural thing here I think where the dogs become an emotional crutch in all sorts of ways. We have the folks with the furbabies , the attentions seekers(dogwalkers who aproach everyone wether you like it or not), animal hoarders and then some folks who "train" their dogs or others. _*The latter need the terminology to give others that don't know any better the illusion that what they are doing is more than what it is so they can feel more important. Imo , its more about them then it is about the dog . If it was truely about the dogs they wouldn't be making things so damned difficult *_.





David Frost said:


> _*You also need new terminology to write a book, do seminars, or to stand out. I mean you can't write a book and say the same thing everyone else does.
> * _
> DFrost


well said! there are some people on this topic that seem to get what I am trying to convey with my rant...thank god for that...it gives me the idea that there is still hope for workingdogs in general. Look at the end of your leash and work with what you have, get help from others and try to bring out the dogs quality's instead of looking for pretty words to make it look more intresting then it really is....its not rocketscience people! its looking,listening and learning (yes even for me its still learning) and I will learn till the day that I cant work dogs anymore since every dog teaches me something new.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

That is why I know I"m getting close to retirement. I'm pretty sure I now know everything.

DFrost


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

It is fitting Howard III has joined in . He's totally in a league of his own in terminology . All I can say is if you can't beat them , go eat cake .


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

i challenge anyone to put a desription of their dogs last training session in words without using terminolgy, heres my attempt; (dog was shitte due to my crap handling). 

it would be like those dumb physics for arts students courses that are popping up everywhere, they promise to teach physics without using any mathematics - what could be described in 1 line ends up taking thousands of words and noone knows what the others are talking about they either just repeat or are just deluded. 

dog training might not be rocket science but it has a technical aspect IMO and hence jargon/terminology is going to be part of it if anyone is going to be able to communicate anything.

the funny part about this thread is was a rant on pointless terminology discussions and now its a discussion ABOUT that point, a meta-dicussions. so the rant turned into a rave into a riot.


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

alice, i read the first 10-15 posts, skipped to here, and still tend to agree with you: terminology gets way too many ppl crazy on here. "work the dog you have", etc., etc.

clear terminology would be nice over the world (this is why we love latin-or used to)--there must be a common language for clear communication. as it is in the working dog world, well that's nonexistent. some try, some just fight.

FWIW, i feel ya woman!!


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> i challenge anyone to put a desription of their dogs last training session in words without using terminolgy, heres my attempt; (dog was shitte due to my crap handling).
> 
> it would be like those dumb physics for arts students courses that are popping up everywhere, they promise to teach physics without using any mathematics - what could be described in 1 line ends up taking thousands of words and noone knows what the others are talking about they either just repeat or are just deluded.
> 
> ...


Pete , it's clear you're a guy who is attracted to excessive terminology . That's why you couldn't see in that other thread , that I posted a bunch of made up terminology for shits and giggles . 




> " Chris , Mals are the most popular breed for PSDs because they were bred for the mastimacated kill . This gives them an extremely balanced fight drive visa ve prey drive paradigm . This makes training through the positive and negative reinforcements module much easier . When the stressors are marked properly in these dogs through verbal , visual and mental outlays the cross polenation of assthetics is brought the the forefront in proper dynamical measurements . The outcome is something to see . "
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Pete , not saying you're one to use this type of communication but I am saying you are one of the sheep that help keep these types going .


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

caught out, i thought it was BS but wasn't sure enough to be sure , very subtle.

i rarely get subtle, i rarely even get direct facial expressions of body language, will never win at poker or be a good cop doing suspect interviews - unless u can just beat them into into sayin what u want .


thanks for setting me straight Jim.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

i will be a sheep for as long as takes untill i can walk my own path with confidence - i might live longer that way ....then cometh the wolf.


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> caught out, i thought it was BS but wasn't sure enough to be sure , very subtle.
> 
> i rarely get subtle, i rarely even get direct facial expressions of body language, will never win at poker or be a good cop doing suspect interviews - unless u can just beat them into into sayin what u want .
> 
> ...


That's funny because I wasn't being subtle and it should have been obvious .


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

stop i surrender


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> i challenge anyone to put a desription of their dogs last training session in words without using terminolgy, heres my attempt; (dog was shitte due to my crap handling).


Taken directly from Training/Utilization report for May training of Patrol dog C.J. This was in the training remarks under the controlled aggression section.

"C.J. did not release on second command. Used shock on "no". Ran second exercise C. J. released on first command."

That was it. Short and concise. I know what the problem was, and I know what the handler did to correct it. I would hope the handler runs a similar exercise next training session to see if it is still a problem. 

DFrost


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## Kellie Wolverton (Jan 16, 2009)

We were just talking about this at herding training.

Someone told me I need to play the "circle" game. So I went to my trainer and asked him wth is the circle game? His reply "oh we do that...when we go into the round pen and drive the sheep in a circle"#-o

and then "the clock game"...apparently, we also do that...stop the dog anywhere on the circle at different places.O

and "truncated ill"?? even he said wth is that...LOL

But all the jargon in the world won't help you if you don't get your timing correct. It is one of my biggest challenges in herding...timing...timing the correction, your movements, your commands. If your timing is off just a bit, the picture changes so quickly. Is this the same in the other dog sports?


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Timing sure is important in PSD training . I think some of the new handlers I use to train aged me about 10 years while trying to fix some issues with their dogs . For me it seemed more of an issue in the detection classes I trained than in the Patrol classes . Oh well we all have to start somewhere but it sure can get frustrating .


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Jim Nash said:


> It is fitting Howard III has joined in . He's totally in a league of his own in terminology . All I can say is if you can't beat them , go eat cake .


Jim will that be fruit cake or Devil's food?


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Howard , it's the kind you eat with a straw . Sure does smell good though .


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