# pup's drives tested - vid



## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

anyhoo - said i would put this up once pup got some stimulation - learned how to add sound. 

comments welcome, vid cam. was on a box (not table lol) so you cant see decoy moves, pup scented on decoy who exited up staircase went through house and sneaked up from other side. 

no prey moves at all, stalked my dog all square on with constant stink eye and threatening gestures. stick you see was only to check for pre-conditioned stick stimulation, my dog did not get a sting with it at all.

decoy does not want barking at a distance, only barking when close, decoy stayed close and did all intimidation moves.

this is the entire session un edited at low quality res and 15 frames per second, for easy upload.

venue was never seen by dog prior as was decoy, slippery floor as well.

comments welcome, especially on the recovery bit at the end after a title screen.

i think he showed some balls and uncertainty, i would expect uncertainty given no hisdtory of stimulation or prior exposure.

his hackles never went up and his tail was wagging a lot whatever that means, some prey yips when decoy backed off - like dog wanted him to stay and play.

not sure if you can hear but some deep growling when stalked.

comments good or bad welcome, prefer questions not assumptions.

cheers

http://youtu.be/a3mj0UkxueU


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

I like your dog. Why push a dog this young to uncertainty and backing up? If you are going to train this dog in bitework, quit jacking around and start some progressive training.

T


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## Travis Ragin (Apr 10, 2010)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> decoy does not want barking at a distance, only barking when close


Was the dog given an alert command?(couldn't hear)





Peter Cavallaro said:


> *Decoy *does not want barking at a distance, only barking when close


Is that what *you* want?




I like your dog too


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Decoy wants no game play and no barking at distance for two reasons, 1. encourages hectic behaviour,2. Doesnt want dog triggering or seeing a threat past 3metres. Both practical. At this stage decoy wants no encouragement from me, i did give some commands, my bad.


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## Ralph Tough (Jun 3, 2012)

Hi Peter, love your dog! and he seems very sure of himself on the video all the best.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

why did you place the camera so you can't see the decoy's approach/moves and how the dog is reacting to them ?
-- i was waiting for him to come down the stairs 

your verbal "description" of what the decoy was doing is somewhat irrelevant (imo) without being able to see the dog's reaction as each movement is made, especially involving the fwd and backward movement by the dog

why did you stop filming after the decoy ran off and start again after the dog had recovered ? to show the recovery ? 
...a little confused here 

but i'll take it on faith the way u described ... dog has balls and did fine


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Seems to have potential but i agree with T as well.I still want to know the breeding on this dog peter?


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Lol, i set the camera up to focus on the wooden box under dogs feet to get a close up of dog, a distant shot with a cheap camera in a low lit room with a toy microphone would have been worse, im not a camera pro or editing pro, you seen the whole session. Wide angle lens? 

T, expected more analysis from you. 

Thanks for likes tho.


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## Travis Ragin (Apr 10, 2010)

did you give an alert command at :29?


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## Doug Zaga (Mar 28, 2010)

Pete, I still like your dog!

What were you and decoy trying to accomplish with this scenario?

Music blows...you should have used RL Burnsides...It's Bad You Know :-D


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Travis cant analyse vid and post on phone, but prolly what you said. I have trouble shutting up.


,Doug Thomas likes guitar he will like main track in middle. RL?


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## Doug Zaga (Mar 28, 2010)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> ,Doug RL?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QzC_rGX-XyM


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

I like, will check out more.


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## Travis Ragin (Apr 10, 2010)

I just simply asked yes or no questions and I still haven't gotten one.

Just wanted to *comment *on what I saw in this quick vid of the dog......in particular because I liked him(and I hate herders).But cannot deny the respect that a big solid built GSD still induces in me(Maybe it's from growing up in the 70's).


That was all.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Travis cant confirm on phone cos i cant. Will make a special trip to town to get on a computer and give a yes or no.


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## Doug Zaga (Mar 28, 2010)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> Travis cant confirm on phone cos i cant. Will make a special trip to town to get on a computer and give a yes or no.


That was a YES...right Peter :-\"


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Pete.

Like the dog, to bad your video skills are not that good, 
from now on always include the decoy...

Nice first eval/session ( I think, even though cant see the dude and what he is doing). Will be interesting to see the progression if you make it a regular thing.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Roger that, what do you see in the dog and how would YOU proceed.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> Roger that, what do you see in the dog and how would YOU proceed.


Well it seems like your decoy has the plan, how would YOU proceed? lol

You plan on training him to the protocol that you stated they are looking for?

no suits, no visable sleeves?


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Decoy is private enterprise and is more interested in washing out non—hackers than developing them.

I agree with decoys goals non hectic serious dog not playing a game. I would put in another step and use the dogs natural possession to guard a sleeve on the ground, not sure why but i think it will provide what the decoy wants but less on the dog. 

Could be on wrong track and dont have the confidence / knowledge to orchestrate it. just feel it would be an intermediatte 'CRUTCH' to support dog.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> Decoy is private enterprise and is more interested in washing out non—hackers than developing them.
> 
> I agree with decoys goals non hectic serious dog not playing a game. I would put in another step and use the dogs natural possession to guard a sleeve on the ground, not sure why but i think it will provide what the decoy wants but less on the dog.
> 
> Could be on wrong track and dont have the confidence / knowledge to orchestrate it. just feel it would be an intermediatte 'CRUTCH' to support dog.


My dog would not cut it LOL. F-A-I-L
she bit the decoys stick arm the first bite she ever got, first time seeing the stick. and would most likely be barking at first eye screw, and trying to get to him, even at a distance.

so what is the end goal? we have heard what the decoy wants and likes..
how is the dog gonna be trained?


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Nice dog
Lousy training
Take it serious and get with someone who knows what they're doing (I don't think this "decoy" does from what I see on the video) or quit fukin with your dog


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## Ralph Tough (Jun 3, 2012)

Peter, Keep up the good work, no matter what dog or photo/video we put up there will always be negative remarks by negative people. I say show me a perfect dog and then I will "Say Bull Crap" as there aint one perfect one out there to be found be it working or show dogs. If there is one please show me!!!! I say my dogs are all perfect but that is my opinion, ........ but that doesn't mean its right or your opinion is right......


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Joby Becker said:


> My dog would not cut it LOL. F-A-I-L
> she bit the decoys stick arm the first bite she ever got, first time seeing the stick. and would most likely be barking at first eye screw, and trying to get to him, even at a distance.
> 
> so what is the end goal? we have heard what the decoy wants and likes..
> how is the dog gonna be trained?


Man you ask some questions, end goal, security patrol. How will THAT decoy train it, i only went for an eval did not discuss a training plan or consider it. did talk a lot of dog stuff tho. i doubt it will involve much focussed heeling.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Ralph Tough said:


> Peter, Keep up the good work, no matter what dog or photo/video we put up there will always be negative remarks by negative people. I say show me a perfect dog and then I will "Say Bull Crap" as there aint one perfect one out there to be found be it working or show dogs. If there is one please show me!!!! I say my dogs are all perfect but that is my opinion, ........ but that doesn't mean its right or your opinion is right......


The perfect dog, i got them both here, **** what anyone else thinks.


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> Man you ask some questions, end goal, security patrol. How will THAT decoy train it, i only went for an eval did not discuss a training plan or consider it. did talk a lot of dog stuff tho. i doubt it will involve much focussed heeling.


Security work= defensive,reactive half assed trained dogs across this country with next to no certification.Now this is a generalisation as some guys are doing the right work and know what they are doing and im seeing more controlled and better trained dogs but most are cowboys.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Nice dog
> Lousy training
> Take it serious and get with someone who knows what they're doing (I don't think this "decoy" does from what I see on the video) or quit fukin with your dog



Thanks for the like, soundtrack after intro? i chose it for you.


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Ralph Tough said:


> Peter, Keep up the good work, no matter what dog or photo/video we put up there will always be negative remarks by negative people. I say show me a perfect dog and then I will "Say Bull Crap" as there aint one perfect one out there to be found be it working or show dogs. If there is one please show me!!!! I say my dogs are all perfect but that is my opinion, ........ but that doesn't mean its right or your opinion is right......


 my dog is perfect :---) and she is for sale


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

brad robert said:


> Security work= defensive,reactive half assed trained dogs across this country with next to no certification.Now this is a generalisation as some guys are doing the right work and know what they are doing and im seeing more controlled and better trained dogs but most are cowboys.



Yes some go to sch and feel the need to hide the fact they do security, Jay Q here might have an opinion on that lol.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

brad robert said:


> my dog is perfect :---) and she is for sale


You seriously selling her??


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Nice dog
> Lousy training
> Take it serious and *get with someone who knows what they're doing (I don't think this "decoy" does from what I see on the video*) or quit fukin with your dog


Thomas. why do you say this? The "decoy" is present in the video for a second or two. 

I think a comment like that deserves a little more information as to how you come to that conclusion...

What did you see that was wrong with this "evaluation"?


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Nah just kiddin:lol: couldnt do it!!


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I think you've got a very nice, young dog. Bark was serious with just a fast switch to prey bark one time. It would be nice to see the helper at the same time. That would make it easier to critique. 
Don't put to much pressure on a young dog (aka T's comment about backing up). The dog should always win.
Finding someone that really knows their $#!+ would do wonders with that dog. I see nice potential. 
Think about the mail carrier. Every day he comes up to the house and rattles the mail box. The young dog barks and the mail carrier leaves. 
It doesn't take long and the young dog starts believing HE is responsible for chasing off the mail carrier and his confidence grows. If the mail carrier, early on, runs the dog off a couple of times the young dog starts questioning his abilities to "chase" this guy off.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Thanks Bob, i am way too soft to put much pressure on my dog, thats about it untill he grows into it and if he dont hes still got a great pet home for all his days.

As far as fukin with my dog as Thomas says what have the 20 odd vids i put up in 12months show........a dog running wild being a dog is what. my dogs have never had a single leash correction since they been born....prongs, ecollar.........get the **** outta here Thomas, jerk off.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

brad robert said:


> Nah just kiddin:lol: couldnt do it!!


Glad to hear it mate, thought it was a case of out with the old in with the new, none of my biz of course but would have looked at u different if you was a disposable dog guy.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> Lol, i set the camera up to focus on the wooden box under dogs feet to get a close up of dog, a distant shot with a cheap camera in a low lit room with a toy microphone would have been worse, im not a camera pro or editing pro, you seen the whole session. Wide angle lens?
> 
> T, expected more analysis from you.
> 
> Thanks for likes tho.


Can''t see the decoy so that limits. Best case scenario for me is one that doesn't back up with the pressure he was obviously putting on him. I think he is young and still puppy and with pretty good confidence. Don't like decoys backing up a dog even for a so called test. If he knows what he is doing, he ought to be able to test without backing up the dog. Furthermore, don't like to see that type of test on a barely year old dog that hasn't come fully into who he is yet. Good dog. Decoy fired. Oh, LOVE the structure. Now lets see him on livestock.

T


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Bob interesting you mentioned the bark, sch guys said he has great prey/defence balance and can be switched instantly between the two drives with low thresholds for both, technical as i get.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Thanks T, me think same.

Let him look at sheep in a pen, he had a full body explosion i had to body slam him into the ground and carry him to the car, at 3mo.

He has since killed live game so herding might be out. Want to try him with a muzzle tho.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> Bob interesting you mentioned the bark, sch guys said he has great prey/defence balance and can be switched instantly between the two drives with low thresholds for both, technical as i get.



On just that short video I would agree!


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

You guys really think he's low thresshold for both? I would have thought medium-ish with more on the prey side--for now. When he is 3ish, then you'll have the full scope.

T


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

T the dog deserves another chance on stock. in a very controlled environment, the old dog loves to be chased he definately likes to block, head and stalk. I know enough to know instinct when i see it.


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## Sally Crunkleton (Jan 13, 2012)

He is a nice pup and I think he has potential as well. 

I still don't quite get why the decoy didn't want him barking until he was at the 3 meter mark. Even "security" dogs raise hell and run up on someone to assess the situation. If you decided to pursue sport work the barking is often preferred or required- i.e. bark and hold. 

I remember reading you were turned off by a club recently, but try some others if available, or network to find a helper that can bring out what YOU want. 

The dog seems great, and seems he has a good home, now just get some good peeps to help you and no doubt he can do well in whatever venue you choose.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> T the dog deserves another chance on stock. in a very controlled environment, the old dog loves to be chased he definately likes to block, head and stalk. I know enough to know instinct when i see it.


 
For me, watching the video, he has a sensible feel about him and you have a good relationship with him.

T


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## Daniel Lybbert (Nov 23, 2010)

couldnt see the decoy. period. turned it off before the end. Sorry. that is my 2 cents. Without that he coudl be barking for a treat. or at a treat. But he did bark pretty well.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Reading between the lines here, i think what a lot of people are hinting at is the decoy should have been in the camera view, am i right??? 


Sally 3m is straight crowd control thing for security work, they dont tolerate hectic barking dogs at people over the way, these dogs patrol busy shopping centres, purely practical. They dont want dogs to try kill everyone they see in fact they want a dog to ignore nearly everyone it sees.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Reading between the lines here, i think what a lot of people are hinting at is the decoy should have been in the camera view, am i right??? 


Sally 3m is straight crowd control thing for security work, they dont tolerate hectic barking dogs at people over the way, these dogs patrol busy shopping centres, purely practical. They dont want dogs to try kill everyone they see in fact they want a dog to ignore nearly everyone it sees.


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## Sally Crunkleton (Jan 13, 2012)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> Reading between the lines here, i think what a lot of people are hinting at is the decoy should have been in the camera view, am i right???
> 
> 
> Sally 3m is straight crowd control thing for security work, they dont tolerate hectic barking dogs at people over the way, these dogs patrol busy shopping centres, purely practical. They dont want dogs to try kill everyone they see in fact they want a dog to ignore nearly everyone it sees.


Right on part 1.

I thought you meant security dog as in guard an estate, farm, business complex, etc. I see what you meant now, like a patrol dog. Cool. Is he normally social with strangers?


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Extremely social to the point of being a rude brat, ie jumps up on everyone scaring the shit out of them. I allowed it to happen, but dont allow it no more. 

Starting to get territorial about the same time he learned how to pee on a tree which was very recent. Has gone off at night around outside movement and will run boundary fence. 

Security dogs have varying rôles most do absolutely nothing most of the time, which is the best outcome, noone wants shit to happen unless you are crazy.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Pete,

I see a dog that is confident for his age, and yes there was a little uncertainty due to this probably being his first exposure to this very minimal beginning defense type evaluation/work.

I am not sure why people are saying that the guy sucks, or he should be fired, or that the dog was "backed" up...

I never saw the dog take more than a half step backwards, and then saw the guy bring him back forward. Seems to me like the guy knew what he was doing, saw the uncertainty, and "possibly" some pre-avoidance behaviors ( if you want to stretch that word ) by backing off and getting the dog to move forward.

I saw nothing in the video that would give me any concern for the dog or the decoy...there is always uncertainty when a dog is in defense, the dog did well, and so did the guy.

The dog ended up further forward when it was over, than he was when he started. 

I would expect any GSD worth anything to me, to be able to handle this minimal stress at his age. 

If you can, video the next time too. interested to see how the guy will continue on with the training. 

I saw you mentioning guarding a sleeve earlier, are sleeves gonna be used? (visable ones?)


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Guarding sleeve is my idea, really havent discussed a training plan, believe me.

Decoy said they go straight to undercover sleeve, my dog is prolly younger than most there. 

I will say some mals and titled gsd's ended up behind the handler with same pressure same scenario. Not generalising, decoy workef ass off to rebuild them in prey so he could get them off the property.


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## Sally Crunkleton (Jan 13, 2012)

If he is already social, then to me he has the basic temperament to do fine in public as opposed to the dog who lets no one but his master come close.

I think we all hope our dogs never have to really bite anyone, but if it's you or them- it's nice to know your dog would come through. My previous GSD did feel as though he had to bite someone. It was very deserved and I am glad nothing horrible came from it- but I prefer to not test it out again in real life!


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Travis YES a watch comand at 29—ish and some speak commands. We good to go :—)


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## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> Thanks Bob, i am way too soft to put much pressure on my dog
> .. my dogs have never had a single leash correction since they been born





Peter Cavallaro said:


> i had to body slam him into the ground and carry him to the car, at 3mo.


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## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> Reading between the lines here, i think what a lot of people are hinting at is the decoy should have been in the camera view, am i right???


Can't tell a thing without seeing what the decoy is doing. Very small changes can mean big changes in the dog. If we saw video of a dog barking heatedly it would mean significantly different things if he was barking at a cat or a decoy. It's also impossible to read the results of a test without knowing the desired end result. A PSD will have different requirements than a competition dog.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Well yr the odd man out if yr saying the decoy should have been filmed, comes as a revalation at this point in the discussion....jk


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I often wonder what the value is of showing a video of a dog, especially a young dog without the decoy in view.

Peter, carry on training with your dog and forget the comments.

How did we train without videos? We trained and the decoy explained the weaknesses and strengths of the dog and only he could do this.

Every time the WUSV or FCI comes up, there are numerous onlookers who know more than the judge and feel they have to criticise.

Be well, Peter, trust in your *own* judgement of the dog and that of your trainer / decoy.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Thanks Gill, it was just sharing with dog folks, so no prob.


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## jim stevens (Jan 30, 2012)

Although we are on opposite sides of the world, I think Peter and I face some of the same problems. While we realize that having a great decoy is important, I have a problem finding any, and have had to get some of my son's friends to decoy, with a bit of instruction from me. I work 6 days a week, and would have to drive four hours to train with anyone, it's just not practical. I'd love to have a good decoy to work mine with, haven't gone to get one at the bar yet though!

I think he has a really nice dog, and like myself has learned to pretty much do it all himself. Mine will likely never be anything more than a dog with good obedience and some bitework/protection skills, but that's OK too. Sometime I need to get some vids of my dog working, I'm sure there are plenty of things I do that aren't correct, hopefully make her better. Again, nice pup.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Jim, that four hour trip might be worth while just to get a weekend of instructions and seeing things done correctly. Seminars can be a great experience if you'v had none. That is if the seminar is by someone that has a good reputation.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Bob, just curious.

Even though you cant see the decoy in Petes vid, judging by the dogs reactions, how would you rate the work using an educated guess?


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I saw just a bit of concern from the dog (slight backing up) but it seemed the "helper" brought it back immediately. Same with the quick switch from serious bark to prey bark and back. Even with this the "slight backing up" and "switch in barking" is open to interpretation without actually seeing the helper at the time.
Accidental or otherwise I didn't have problems with it. 
I still would like to actually see the helper working the dog. That would/could clarify things a bit. 
My main concern is the age of the dog. Pete said the dog just started lifting his leg. At 14 months that's an immature dog. HOPEFULLY things will go at a pace the dog can handle. Sounds like Pete is aware of that.
From different videos that have been posted I do like the dog a lot!


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## jim stevens (Jan 30, 2012)

Bob

Newbie questions
When you say serious bark, do you mean the rolling warning bark a dog gives when someone beats on the door, as compared to the normal prey bark? I would call it a 'warning' bark.

Also at what age can pressure really be put on a dog? Mine is just now 11 months, I think she would react a lot like his, back up to me at first then charge back out. My dog doesn't tend towards a lot of barking, either, never makes a sound when teased with a tug, etc, just locks on intently, then hits it, sometimes clacks her teeth however. Maybe difference is the breed? Mine is a mali.

On another tone, since you are kind of in my 'neck of the woods', if you know of a good seminar in the area, it would be good for me. I do have kind of a 'zero tolerance' policy for obedience from a life of handling horses, which are not nearly as intelligent, so my dog has a near perfect recall (even from rabbits and deer) and will do a decent finish, long downs, and heel down the street and around the block with no collar at all. I have no experience at bitework, but she will bite on command, outs perfectly, mostly I've worked her on a sleeve myself, also my son who is 24, so not a kid! She's only had one time with someone who had any experience as a decoy, so I could obviously use a little help.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Jim cant answer for Bob but my newb view on bark is an alert bark is a call to the 'pack' — hey guys look what i found, check this out do we eat it, **** it or what??? it is higher pitched my theory is cos high frequencies are more directional so the pack can locate you. a warning bark is not to the pack its a personal msg to the object of concern, the bark comes from the stomach/back of throat not the front of throat cavity. To me the immature dog is saying i dont like this not sure what im suppossed to do here these emotions are all new. The low frequencies penetrate the decoys body and they feel the bark, the staccato bark surprised my ass, cos my dog is not a barker. the low frequencies are omnidirectional to say this circle around me is a blast zone enter it you could get hurt.

How my dog deals with these strange emotions is purely a function of training.



Do dogs have emotion???? if no ignore previous.


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## Doug Zaga (Mar 28, 2010)

Pete do you meet up with Britney and her bf for some training?


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

jim stevens said:


> Although we are on opposite sides of the world, I think Peter and I face some of the same problems. While we realize that having a great decoy is important, I have a problem finding any, and have had to get some of my son's friends to decoy, with a bit of instruction from me. I work 6 days a week, and would have to drive four hours to train with anyone, it's just not practical. I'd love to have a good decoy to work mine with, haven't gone to get one at the bar yet though!


Jim, you are always welcome to train with us. I drive 4 hours each way 1-2 times a month (or even more before a trial) to our decoy and he comes down to St. Louis (Wentzville) to work our dogs about twice a month. Trust me on this, driving 4 hours each way even just a few times a month to get your dog worked by someone who knows what the heck they are doing is worth many, MANY times more than twice a week or more on someone who doesn't. Been there, done that, got quite a few t-shirts! Read my one thread if you want details on our progress the last four months. And PM me if you want more info.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Nah, realistically JB's on a tight business schedule, his body clock must be working him, would have been good for me, even offered Brit kill her own roo, would have thrown in coupla koalas, she could have made a cool handbag...jk.

Super pissed at the organisors making it a closed shop, screw them.

Mebbe next time organise flights and pay him to stay an extra day.


Funny thing is i was given his contact détails a year ago by a former member here and tarheel employee and told to organise something....i didnt.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Pete, order "JB" some pulled pork nachos. That should help things.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

jim stevens said:


> Bob
> 
> Newbie questions
> When you say serious bark, do you mean the rolling warning bark a dog gives when someone beats on the door, as compared to the normal prey bark? I would call it a 'warning' bark.
> ...




Serious bark = deep, angry bark
Prey bark = more puppy like or let's play.
What age depends on the dog and super important, how good is the helper. 
There are 3-4 clubs in the St. Louis area. I belonged to Riverfront Working Dog Club in Lone Wolf Park, St. Peter's Mo. Three Riveres Cllub also at Lone Wolf Park in St. Peter's Mo.
There is also St. Louis Schuutzhund in South St. Louis County. Tom Rose's club in Eureka Mo just out of St. Louis off hwy 44. 
I haven't been involved an about 2yrs now so I'm not familiar with seminars around here. The good ones are definitely worth traveling for.


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## Jay Quinn (Apr 1, 2012)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> Yes some go to sch and feel the need to hide the fact they do security, Jay Q here might have an opinion on that lol.


because the dog world is so cliquey and political and fscked up. if you mentioned the dreaded "S" word at a sch club here they will chase you out with a broom... >_<

you have a damn nice dog dude, and you really need to find someone who knows what they are doing to train with... as has been said already you're better off making fewer trips for better training than lots of trips for bad training... and you're also better off doing nothing at all over bad training any day... you'll fsck your dog, and that'd just be a shame :/ if the dog has the genetics (and yours DOES), the good training can always come later... 

i know it's frustrating to make a long drive, and only have your dog on the field for a few minutes... but it's how things go... young dogs who are still learning need to be rewarded quickly and the whole thing needs to remain fun if you're going to get anywhere... as the dog learns and progresses, then session times will increase... 

there is also nothing wrong with any dog learning a focussed heel... sure it's not required for a street dog but it's still a measure of the handler's ability to work with their dog..._ i got a job_ because my dog has nice obedience and good control... 


messing around with cowboys who don't believe in prey drive is only going to end in tears...........


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Was real worried that threw the pup too far in, actually had a sleepless night after that session. I saw zero change in his behaviour, still a pushy ball crazy mofo, no change there.

I was still stressed so got a neighnour who knows nothing about dogs to come up in my yard just to see dogs response.

Folks yr wrong about my decoy, he read this dog like a book, i got a bunch of shots, you decide if the dog has gone backward.......lol

will weave pics together and try put up today.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> Was real worried that threw the pup too far in, actually had a sleepless night after that session. I saw zero change in his behaviour, still a pushy ball crazy mofo, no change there.
> 
> I was still stressed so got a neighnour who knows nothing about dogs to come up in my yard just to see dogs response.
> 
> ...



Pete, your dog is to strong to get efd up with one small session like that. My concern was that you allow it to build to fast.
After reading the rest of the post I don't see that happening because you do seem to have a good read on your dog. He's a really nice dog. You seem to know that and want to do best for him so enjoy!;-)


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Thanks Bob, not worried now, not sure if you caught latest thread.

Dog answered my questions i asked of him. 


back to being a silly fun pup now for a few months.


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## herman williams (Nov 23, 2011)

like some already said, you really cannot command on the dogs responses without seeing the action the decoy is making at the same time


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Thanks, news to me.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

watched it again ...
this time i noticed you amped him up twice when he dropped in drive a bit and kept a fair amount of lead tension thru most of it ..... imo if you are evaluating you should evaluate, not do any coaching or it starts becoming training 

anyway.....
this afternoon the gsd i'm working with alerted on a stranger 
i didn't say a word
ALL forward movement towards the back gate
started with deep growling
then extremely deep barking
lips then curled back
tail up
snarling and clacking in between barks
no piloerection ANYWHERE on its body
i stepped in front and looked thu the gate to see who was approaching.
no one .... 
looked over the fence next to the gate and down about 30ft and saw a terrified old lady walking by looking up at me.

- i'm DAMN sure if she woulda come up my steps and thru the gate instead of walked silently past us below the dog woulda ripped her face off
... he almost got to a delivery guy who DID come to the front door the other day :-(
..and after the old lady was outa sight and outa mind he "recovered" VERY quickly and became the calm off duty therapy dog that the owner would like him to be 
..great dog eh ?? a vid woulda been "awesome" to many viewers :-((((

fwiw, the owner showed me lots of protection "fang shots" before she brought him
- NO, he isn't being trained to guard property or the owner
- but per owner's request i am ATTEMPTING to train this dog to alert but back off and get under control when his "services" are no longer needed 
- for these sessions, my plan at this point involves NO lead and NO back tie, and it AIN'T all positive training either ;-)
....and this was no evaluation by any means

anyway back to your test ... SHOW how the dog is reacting to the stimulus and it can be evaluated properly. all it takes is aiming the camera in another direction 
than get a PLAN for what you want to do with that dog from that point on

i can take ANY decent dog and back tie em and get them to show all sorts of fwd movement and aggression to someone advancing on the dog; stink eye or NO stink eye ](*,)
- with a lead attached it is a piece of cake if you have any dog sense at all
- but i personally don't think that type of test shows a whole lot more without a LOT of decoy pressure and we didn't see yours very much ... as you know
... and most all but the shitters will then hit a sleeve and handle a little pressure while gripping too ... big deal ... it's actually a good way to relieve some stress if you felt the dog got too much ... fine ... you now know you have a dog you can start training to do further bitework 

still ..... a nice dog you got there ....
but i'll repeat until i'm blue in the face ... get a plan with a capital P
i don't think the pup needs a few months off after passing that eval ))))

so i know "my stuff has nothing to do with your stuff" 
...but gotta question
when YOU and the other guy set up your test, why was the dog attached to you ?
i'm sure one of you had a reason ..... 

i only see 4 possibles :
1. decoy was not suited and you or him were afraid of an accidental bite
2. you were thinking the dog might run off and you'd lose control
3. you wanted to give the dog some feedback and work as a team
4. everybody does it that way
...please give it some thought

all i'm trying to say is testing and evaluating usually shows how the dog reacts on its own without owner intervention ... at least that's how i evaluate any dog. get em away from their home and owner and let em be themselves

tx//bestaluck


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

rick smith said:


> anyway.....
> this afternoon the gsd i'm working with alerted on a stranger
> i didn't say a word
> ALL forward movement towards the back gate
> ...


Rick is this a trained behavior in the GSD you think, or could it be something he was born with?


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

Joby ... i will respond by PM... i cluttered up Peter's thread enuff


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Rick would you believe it was all options 1 through 4, seriously.

Now my turn for a question, people put so much stock in an analysis is useless without seeing the decoy, bs. What is the decoys job — it was not to build confidence, teach the dog skills eg biting/targetting etc or any training excercise. It was purely to create uncertainty in the dogs mind.

You guys are confusing testing and evaluation, testing is to see how well you learned sumthin, evaluation is what you do BEFORE any lessons have been taught. The results of eval is what informs the training to which a later test can be done.

It is irrelevant what the decoy did, the decoy created uncertainty, how would be different for every dog, comparing two dogs is useless info.

Ed F demonstrates a titled knpv dog that could be run off with eyes alone. Tough dog every other way.

Waving cheerleading streamers at a dog while wearing a gorilla outfit may or may not tell you a dam thing about the dogs nerves. Just like standing over a backtied dog doing nothiing but staring at it would tell you anything about a pet lab wagging its tail expecting a cookie.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

Peter
delete "testing" from my comments (carry over from my "T/E" military days); bad choice of words

but i DID think your were evaluating rather than testing what you have accomplished with the pup to date based on this part of your OP :

"said i would put this up once pup got some stimulation"
i read that to be an eval, not a test 

sorry i totally misunderstood what you were doing

of course i wasn't trying to compare dogs; just saying that vids could be very misleading if you only see the dog in the camera

so now that i know it wasn't an eval, what were you testing ?


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Untrained responses to a perceived threat, it was an observation and evaluation NOT testing, testing makes no sense in this context. We are not communicating well and my only finger i type with is getting fatigued.


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## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> Now my turn for a question, people put so much stock in an analysis is useless without seeing the decoy, bs. What is the decoys job — it was not to build confidence, teach the dog skills eg biting/targetting etc or any training excercise. It was purely to create uncertainty in the dogs mind.


There are many ways to do this. Since we can't see the decoy, we don't know how effective he was at _"creating uncertainty."_ 



Peter Cavallaro said:


> You guys are confusing testing and evaluation, testing is to see how well you learned sumthin, evaluation is what you do BEFORE any lessons have been taught. The results of eval is what informs the training to which a later test can be done.


Many people, and I'm one of them don't buy into your definitions. My purpose for doing a stake out _test _ is to measure the level and balance of drives in the dog. I think either term is appropriate. I prefer the one-syllable word. 



Peter Cavallaro said:


> It is irrelevant what the decoy did, the decoy created uncertainty, how would be different for every dog, comparing two dogs is useless info.


You're welcome to your opinion. But there are several of us who think that in order to read the dog's response we need to see the stimulation that drew that response.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Are we approximately almost agreeing on the broad strokes???


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