# Gigz Learning the Bark & Hold



## Alison Grubb (Nov 18, 2009)

14 month old AB working on the bark and hold.

video:
http://qik.com/44755608/b1b2d063

Thanks for looking. :razz:


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

looks good allison. just a suggestion or thought. if the decoy posts up in a blind i think u will get a stronger response. it allows you to work the dog in and out. keep up the nice work!! thanks for the vid!!


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## Isaiah Chestnut (Nov 9, 2009)

Really nice dog!


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Do you always start without the sleeve? I haven't done a lot of B&H, but the ones I had were with a sleeve or a toy to reward the bark.

Looks like it is working, just curious.


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## Alison Grubb (Nov 18, 2009)

Thanks for the comments and compliments.

Brian, we will be moving the training into a blind at our main club location this was just at one of my decoy's houses and he doesn't have blinds set up there. It will be interesting to see how the blind and a decrease in the distance between the dog and helper changes the picture.

Dave, this is the dog's second or third session working on the bark and hold. During the first session he was rewarded with a grip on the sleeve each time he barked and held his sit. He has also been rewarded for the behavior with a bite in the pocket of the suit. The truth is though, that this dog believes he will or at least can get a bite when no equipment is present. He has been able to in the past, so why couldn't he today for this behavior? Suit, sleeve, or no equipment makes no difference to this dog - he works for all of it.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Alison Grubb said:


> Thanks for the comments and compliments.
> 
> Brian, we will be moving the training into a blind at our main club location this was just at one of my decoy's houses and he doesn't have blinds set up there. It will be interesting to see how the blind and a decrease in the distance between the dog and helper changes the picture.
> 
> Dave, this is the dog's second or third session working on the bark and hold. During the first session he was rewarded with a grip on the sleeve each time he barked and held his sit. He has also been rewarded for the behavior with a bite in the pocket of the suit. The truth is though, that this dog believes he will or at least can get a bite when no equipment is present. He has been able to in the past, so why couldn't he today for this behavior? Suit, sleeve, or no equipment makes no difference to this dog - he works for all of it.



OK. I was just curious. the only thing about no equipment, is he cant get a bite as a reward. That was my only question


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## Alison Grubb (Nov 18, 2009)

I see your point Dave. But I'm not convinced that this dog needs to be rewarded every time he completes the behavior. If the behavior were being eliminated because he wasn't being rewarded each time, that would be one thing but I dont see that here.

Also, not getting a grip would build frustration and should bring more intensity to the behavior. 

How long do you reward a dog with a bite every time he completes the behavior? When do you start to discriminate and only reward for the behaviors that are more exactly what you are looking for?


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Alison Grubb said:


> I see your point Dave. But I'm not convinced that this dog needs to be rewarded every time he completes the behavior. If the behavior were being eliminated because he wasn't being rewarded each time, that would be one thing but I dont see that here.
> 
> Also, not getting a grip would build frustration and should bring more intensity to the behavior.
> 
> How long do you reward a dog with a bite every time he completes the behavior? When do you start to discriminate and only reward for the behaviors that are more exactly what you are looking for?


I would start escaping out around the third or fourth session, build more frustration, several bites in the session, ending either with frustration or a bite, depending on the dog. I am not knocking what you are doing. Just wondering about the lack of reward present. Kind of like doing a call off with the decoy having no equipment. The dog could perceive the decoy moving back as him winning. It does seem to be working pretty well. 


Just curious as to what your thoughts were and the why behind the no equipment.


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## Alison Grubb (Nov 18, 2009)

The system you are describing begins by rewarding an obedience exercise - bark bark bark bite. We are after a dog that is responding to the threat in front of him more than a dog that barks because it means he gets the toy. At the end of the day, I want my dog to remember that it is not the sleeve or the suit that he wants but the man inside


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Alison Grubb said:


> The system you are describing begins by rewarding an obedience exercise - bark bark bark bite. We are after a dog that is responding to the threat in front of him more than a dog that barks because it means he gets the toy. At the end of the day, I want my dog to remember that it is not the sleeve or the suit that he wants but the man inside



Aren't you teaching him sleeve = bite? no sleeve = no bite? like a call off with no sleeve, the dog begins to think, of course I won't get a bite, there is no equipment, why should I run down there? Wouldn't a system always using a sleeve always teach him to bite?

I separate the exercises for civil agitation, and I don''t think you are doing anything wrong, but what do you think of this perspective?


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## Alison Grubb (Nov 18, 2009)

I see what you are saying.

Don't you think the fact that this dog has gotten bites with no equipment changes things? What about the fact that he has not gotten bites with the sleeve?

So you would work a dog in civil agitation but never ask for a B&H and only ask for a B&H when you have either a sleeve or suit to give the dog a reward? I just want to make sure I am clear on what you are saying. Does the attitude in the civil agitation seem to carry over to the rest of your training fairly well? Or do the dogs learn the difference between the game and the civil?

This particular dog is going to bite no matter what. It doesn't matter if you have a suit, sleeve, or no equipment he's going to grab you when he can. Legs, arms, pocket, back, anything he can get to - he is going to take it. It's just how he is.

For a different dog, I would absolutely approach things differently.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Alison Grubb said:


> I see what you are saying.
> 
> Don't you think the fact that this dog has gotten bites with no equipment changes things? What about the fact that he has not gotten bites with the sleeve?
> 
> ...


Are you saying he's had live bites?

What I will say about my perspective is, we don't always know what will make them bite, but we can certainly condition them not to bite the man. It doesn't sound like that's an issue here.

If I was going to do a B & H with no sleeve, the dog would be trained in muzzle attack too, and sent in a muzzle. What if he gets dirty and your decoy has no equipment? The only safe way is having the decoy protected by equipment or environment (door/ceiling/wall locker).

I would train all this on the suit, then train man orientation.


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## Alison Grubb (Nov 18, 2009)

Dave Colborn said:


> Are you saying he's had live bites?
> 
> What I will say about my perspective is, we don't always know what will make them bite, but we can certainly condition them not to bite the man. It doesn't sound like that's an issue here.
> 
> ...


Interesting. The guys I work with have the view that if they screw up and get bit because they don't move fast enough then, well, that's on them. It's never a reason to punish the dog. It's never anything to freak out over. Shit happens. They also work pretty much opposite of the way that you have described. Dogs are started with no equipment and Gigz had I think one rag bite on his fourth or fifth session before he was biting both the hard Sch sleeve and hitting the pocket of the suit. The man orientation/the attitude is taught first and then you go from there.

We have not done any muzzle attack work, thought that would be something I would be interested in trying in the future. It's not something I have done with any dog, but I would like to see how it plays into the dog's general attitude and whatnot.

As you'll notice, the dog is being worked on a backtie. He can only go as far forward as he can go. It's up to the decoy to recognize where that line is and work accordingly.

ETA: We are beginning to reel the dog in. He will understand that in a sport situation he is not allowed to bite the helper himself, just the sleeve or suit. When the equipment is present, he is a clean dog anyway. He understands that when the sleeve is there that he bites the sleeve, and that when the suit is there he bites the armpit.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Alison Grubb said:


> Interesting. The guys I work with have the view that if they screw up and get bit because they don't move fast enough then, well, that's on them. It's never a reason to punish the dog. It's never anything to freak out over. Shit happens. They also work pretty much opposite of the way that you have described. Dogs are started with no equipment and Gigz had I think one rag bite on his fourth or fifth session before he was biting both the hard Sch sleeve and hitting the pocket of the suit. The man orientation/the attitude is taught first and then you go from there.
> 
> We have not done any muzzle attack work, thought that would be something I would be interested in trying in the future. It's not something I have done with any dog, but I would like to see how it plays into the dog's general attitude and whatnot.
> 
> As you'll notice, the dog is being worked on a backtie. He can only go as far forward as he can go. It's up to the decoy to recognize where that line is and work accordingly.



OK. Specifically, when the B & H is finished, will your guys stand in a blind or a room or the field and let you send the dog in for a B & H with no equipment? That's what I was getting at.

Accidental bites don't hurt, everyone knows that! I only get wound up when there are "rubber arms" on the handler's part involved.

Also, this has nothing to do with this dog. I wanted to hear your methodology and it seems like you look for man orientation first, then move on. The one in the video, seemed like he wasn't kidding. Next time I am down, I'd like to come train with you guys and see some first hand. Possible? Are you still north of sanford?


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## Alison Grubb (Nov 18, 2009)

Dave Colborn said:


> OK. Specifically, when the B & H is finished, will your guys stand in a blind or a room or the field and let you send the dog in for a B & H with no equipment? That's what I was getting at.
> 
> Accidental bites don't hurt, everyone knows that! I only get wound up when there are "rubber arms" on the handler's part involved.
> 
> Also, this has nothing to do with this dog. I wanted to hear your methodology and it seems like you look for man orientation first, then move on. The one in the video, seemed like he wasn't kidding. Next time I am down, I'd like to come train with you guys and see some first hand. Possible? Are you still north of sanford?


Ah, ok. I misunderstood what you were getting at. Would I send my dog into the blind after someone with no equipment? No. I've never seen the guys I work with put themselves in that position and it's not something I would expect to be proposed to me.

My methodology does have something to do with the dog. This particular dog has been worked very differently from any other dog I have owned. I have recently purchased his half sister who is very close to him in age and she will be worked differently, with more of a mixture than this dog has had. So to me, methodology always comes down to the individual dog I am dealing with.

I am still just outside of Pittsboro, but I don't train here. I train with one group outside of Richmond, VA and another group in MD. If you are interested in coming to either of those locations get with me and we can set it up.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

dumb question - several experienced people i have heard say the B&H is the only time a dog works in defence in an entire Sch. routine. i don't understand this, can anyone expalin this statement - my guess is becuae the decoy is not moving therfore; no movement = no prey; no prey = defence????

i can't see why its is more challenging for a dog than a courage test which is all prey??? so i'm told.

just trying to get it.

if anything B&H seems nothing more than flushing as per any bird dog which is clearly not defence???


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> dumb question - several experienced people i have heard say the B&H is the only time a dog works in defence in an entire Sch. routine. i don't understand this, can anyone expalin this statement - my guess is becuae the decoy is not moving therfore; no movement = no prey; no prey = defence????
> 
> i can't see why its is more challenging for a dog than a courage test which is all prey??? so i'm told.
> 
> ...


Who said the B & H is the only time a dog works in defense in a Sch routine. I want to get that guy or girl. That would be an asset like odor goggles in detection. 

This will all depend on the dog Pete. The dog calls what he's working in and comfortable with.


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## Alison Grubb (Nov 18, 2009)

Dave, I thought you might get a kick out of these so I thought I would share them. These are pictures of Gigz's (male in the video) half sister, Raven at her second training session with us. Note that most of the work is done with no equipment although she did earn a grip on the bite pillow. Her training will differ from that of Gigz.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Sweet pics!!!

Loving the carharts.


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## Alison Grubb (Nov 18, 2009)

Thanks.

I'm a Carhartt fan too. lol


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I was also curious about the no bite B&H.
Just doesn't really make sense (to me) if the dog gets nothing for performing what your trying to teach.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Dave Colborn said:


> Who said the B & H is the only time a dog works in defense in a Sch routine. I want to get that guy or girl.
> 
> Dave to save uneccesary politics i won't mention names but i will say it is on one of possibly the popular commercial training DVD range available. and i guess just repeated by other trainers prolly they heard it from same source as me and they take it as fact.
> 
> ...


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

In my opinion, yes, the dog determines where he sees a threat. 

If it were going right, the courage test should be where the dog sees the most defense. I think it is pretty common to have a dog do the exercise so much, he doesn't see much threat in a guy running at him on a field.




Peter Cavallaro said:


> Dave Colborn said:
> 
> 
> > Who said the B & H is the only time a dog works in defense in a Sch routine. I want to get that guy or girl.
> ...


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## Lisa Radcliffe (Jun 9, 2011)

Alison Grubb said:


> I see what you are saying.
> 
> Don't you think the fact that this dog has gotten bites with no equipment changes things? What about the fact that he has not gotten bites with the sleeve?
> 
> ...


I watched the video and think you have a nice dog also. But I am a little confused here and would like to understand this thought of training the B&H. What do you mean this dog has "gotten bites with no equipment" ?? and this dog will bite no matter what?? If you are not worried about the civil part for the dog why are you training like that? If the dog is only 14 months old I also do not understand how you can say he is "always clean" ? clean how? I have read your posts but just do not get how this training will end with a good B&H but that is why I am interested it is not anything I have seen before in regards to training this. What I do see is that it could cause some problems for the handler as you move forward. You have said a few times that this training approach is for this dog and you would appoach things different for another dog maybe that is what I am missing how is this dog so different?


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

just watched the vid, well a bit of it, i don't know why but i felt kind of ill for the dog!!! i had the irrational urge to want to push the decoys face into the dogs face and kick the handler in the head a few hundred times. i don't know what i was looking at or why it didn't look right to me. did anyone there actually know what they were doing or what they were trying to achieve. was there actually a method. 

the hard part for me is; ya join a club, call yourself a trainer and hey presto; any techniques is well... just training, some fool does the exact same thing in their back yard and they are an animal abuser??? its a kind of weird arrogance.

i prolly should not join a club.

apologies if i read this all wrong as i said i didn't get it. i sure it all must be harmless good fun and i would not do any of the things i said, just expressing my reaction to the vid, mebbe i should have watched the whole thing.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Thanks for sharing...
What are the ultimate goals for the dog? 

When you say "clean" do you mean clean to the sleeve if is is present? or something else entirely...

Will be interesting to see the finished product...keeping tabs on him....ever since that first videos, which frankly I am surprised no one talked about much...

http://qik.com/39158682/db5e51ed
http://qik.com/39098538/99901139

Not sure what the big to do is, most of that work did include a sleeve...and even settled into a higher pitched prey barking as things progressed...


Peter,,,I think it is just you...I doubt these guys are fools, and they probably know what they are doing, and you dont have to worry, if you join a club they probably wont do things in that manner anyhow...

If anything done there makes you want to kick the handler in the head 200 times, bite work is not gonna be good for you..


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

This is short vid, about the same age...same kinda thing, just that the sleeve was present (on the floor). 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qrCmlaCHOC4


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Side question: I haven't used that site before, but I can hear sound but no video (screen is black). I recently had to reset Internet Explorer to default settings due to other browser issues. Any ideas?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Side question: I haven't used that site before, but I can hear sound but no video (screen is black). I recently had to reset Internet Explorer to default settings due to other browser issues. Any ideas?


USE GOOGLE CHROME....get with it Doc!!!


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

I tried to download Google Chrome on both IE and Firefox (which I normally use, but that's acting super buggy right now too), but it stalls on the "waiting to download" part. It's a conspiracy, I tell ya! And this computer is only like 3 weeks old. ARGH...


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## Alison Grubb (Nov 18, 2009)

*Peter:* Animal abuse? Seriously? LOL Please explain exactly which behaviors carried out by either the decoy or the handler (that would be me) qualify as animal abuse. What exactly made you feel "ill" for the dog? For spewing that kind of crap, you ought to at least be able to put into words what it is you think you are seeing, although my gut says you don't know what the hell you are looking at.

As for the guys I train with, they are not fools. Their personal dogs and club dogs do compete in sports and several have gone on to compete at the national level or better, this includes bull breeds.

P.S. - Do you think that my dog would allow you to kick me in the head once or twice let alone several hundred times? I doubt he would. Either way, it would be an interesting test for the dog. 

*Joby:* My primary goal for this dog is to test him and see what he brings to the table naturally. He has proven himself to me quite well in the protection work so far and we are starting to veer more toward the sport side of the activity although that will always be a secondary objective for me. I plan to compete with him in both PSA and Sch. He will continue to be developed and tested as a PP dog as well. He will also be tested on hogs.

Yes, when I say "clean" I mean that he is clean when the suit or sleeve is present. If the decoy is wearing the sleeve or the suit jacket, then that is what Gigz will target.

I am glad you picked up on the fact that Gigz works primarily in prey. Despite the fact that many people are quick to label the work as being "defensive" due to the actions of the decoy, the dog does not necessarily see it that way.

The video you shared is similar to how this dog has been worked. I would like to note that the sleeve was on the ground during the time that Gigz was being worked as well it just may not have been in the picture frame, actually the suit jacket was there as well.

I will be sure to share more videos as Gigz and I continue training so you and others here can see how he is progressing.

*Maren:* I'm not sure why you are having so much trouble viewing the video. I would be interested to see what you would say about this work as we have discussed previously the merits and pitfalls of this work. Hopefully you can get it to work.

*Lisa:* Here's the thing, I don't see how this will lead to a bad B&H. What problems do you foresee me running into with this dog and training approach? The possible issue I see is that the dog may need some cleaning up, but I don't think that will be much of a big deal. He is a tractable young dog who ultimately wants to please me. As for me saying that I wouldn't train every dog this way, I'm not sure why that is so shocking. Do you train every dog the exact same way? Or do you tailor your approach to the individual dog? What is different about this dog is his character. He has not only survived the pressure that he has had to deal with as I have tested him these last few months, but he has _thrived_ on it. Not every dog, and probably not all that many dogs, could go step for step what Gigz has been through and come out the way he has. IMO, the best trainers look at the individual dogs in front of them and train them accordingly to get the best they can out of that dog.

*On a general note:* I find it entertaining that some individuals who have questioned the video and methods portrayed have contacted me privately to show their support and express that further viewing and thought have led them to different and positive conclusions about what they have seen. :-$


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

*On a general note: I find it entertaining that some individuals who have questioned the video and methods portrayed have contacted me privately to show their support and express that further viewing and thought have led them to different and positive conclusions about what they have seen.* 

I'd say those people are not real sure of what they are seeing. I see a dog in prey mode with no problem moving forward. I would train it a little differently from what I see of him in the short clip. That doesn't mean he would be better. I stick with my suggestion of a tight blind. Specifically that first time let him be surprised by the decoy (let him see him rather than the decoy engaging him) and use that moment to mark that spot to ramp it up. I'd take him off post at this point and work him on lead. (it will help you guide, place and teach him) I'd let him unload more often than is seen in the clip. But I do understand its just a short clip (so I could be talking out my butt lol). Although he is in prey drive ... that can create stress without being able to blow it off and it looked to me like he was approaching that point. He looks like a nice dog to me. I am a fan of them ole bulldogs anyway lol....my .02


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## Mario Fernandez (Jun 21, 2008)

Good job Alison keep up the good work. More than one way to train, what matters is the end results. Very promising dog for his age. Take your time.

Later down the line in BnH, you may consider to have your helper/decoy to not do so much stimulus. Make the dog do BnH with the helper/decoy totally neutral, no eye contact. People underestimate this. When all the stimulus is gone their reliable BnH is not so reliable as the dogs become to reliant on the stimulus. Start introducing it later down the line.

Again, have fun and best of luck

Mario


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Alison Grubb said:


> *Peter:* *Animal abuse? Seriously?*
> 
> no i don't believe it was based on the general condition of the dog and your generall handling etc. i reacted from a first impression i think i mentioned that.
> 
> ...


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## Alison Grubb (Nov 18, 2009)

I appreciate the constructive comments and compliments, Brian and Mario.

Brian: That first time he comes around the blind and is surprised by the decoy...do you allow the dog to see the decoy going into the blind? If not, how do you do it? I do agree that we need to move him into a blind so that he gets the whole picture.

Mario: That is a good point about having Gigz do a B&H on a neutral decoy. That's not something I had considered. Definitely something we will mix into the training.

Thanks.


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## Alison Grubb (Nov 18, 2009)

Peter: I asked for clarification because IMHO the accusation of animal abuse is a serious one.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

read first line of my last post???


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## Alison Grubb (Nov 18, 2009)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> read first line of my last post???


Yes, I did. I was responding to the comment that you were surprised I didn't get your meaning in your original post. It's really not a big deal. I know I don't abuse my animals. Gigz doesn't think he is abused. That's really all I care about at the end of the day.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

so yr happy as you can comprehend that i reversed my intial unjustified reaction??


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## Alison Grubb (Nov 18, 2009)

It's all good, Peter.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

cheers - i am weaning myself off posting period, becuase i do this too often, not bad enough to get banned but not contributing. i only really want to post vids and get opinions - yr chance for payback lol but can't set up the account that way.

good luck with training.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> cheers - i am weaning myself off posting period, becuase i do this too often, not bad enough to get banned but not contributing. i only really want to post vids and get opinions - yr chance for payback lol but can't set up the account that way.
> 
> good luck with training.



Please don't stop Peter. If anyone reads any two of your posts, they understand you are good hearted fun loving guy. It's all good.

The worst thing you do is make someone explain themselves, and that's not bad. Maybe just hold up on the accusatory animal abuse posts...

It is in fact, all good.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Dave Colborn said:


> Maybe just hold up on the accusatory animal abuse posts...
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> ...


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Alison Grubb said:


> I appreciate the constructive comments and compliments, Brian and Mario.
> 
> Brian: That first time he comes around the blind and is surprised by the decoy...do you allow the dog to see the decoy going into the blind? If not, how do you do it? I do agree that we need to move him into a blind so that he gets the whole picture.
> 
> ...


Brian: That first time he comes around the blind and is surprised by the decoy...do you allow the dog to see the decoy going into the blind? If not, how do you do it? 

dont let him see the decoy load into the blind. It needs to be a startling surprise. If he is familiar with certain blinds then use something he doesn't know. Your setting him up to be startled and just so happens its by your decoy. Use that exact moment to reinforce what he's doing and make an episode out of it make it quick. I agree with you on the blind helping. At least in the starting out stages. After you feel like he has it down then take him out in the open and check him. If he isn't sure then go back to the blind. I would offer some advice on working him. Except you have a decoy and I respect his right to work the dog the way he sees him. Im not standing in front of him. At the end of the day he will come in line pretty quick I believe.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Alison Grubb said:


> *Maren:* I'm not sure why you are having so much trouble viewing the video. I would be interested to see what you would say about this work as we have discussed previously the merits and pitfalls of this work. Hopefully you can get it to work.


Okay, FINALLY got it to play just once on Firefox before stupid Firefox froze. Again. Stupid computers... :-({|= 

If you're looking at it from a PSA perspective (not that I'm an expert in PSA, but stuff I'm picking up on from other folks as I go along) is actually in line with what Mario says. There is a lot of control in PSA, especially in the upper levels, where as you know the dog must be calm and collected. We know the dog has the drive to do the work, so then it's not so necessary to get a dog super amped with a lot of whip cracking and so on, particularly when you are teaching the dog a skill like the revier that requires a little finesse, self control, and thinking on the dog's part to figure out. Not wanting to put words in Dave's mouth, but I think that's what he means when means exposing the dog to more civil stuff apart from sport stuff. Couldn't prove this and I'm sure there are exceptions, but most dogs learn probably better when they are in drive in a low stress state. I agree your dog is working mostly in prey here, but when teaching them something new, it's probably best to do it almost solely in prey so it's less stress on most dogs so they can learn. So honestly, until you teach the dog the steps, I'd hold off on the whip cracking and whatnot. Just like when you're teaching obedience (and the bark and hold has a lot of self control and obedience in it not to get dirty), you add in one new element at a time. Don't worry so much about making him think it's "about the man" until he knows the exercise. 

I would also continue to reward with a bite when it's done correctly, particularly in the learning phase like you are in with your dog. Once the dog has the whole sequence, it may not be necessary to give 'em a bite every time, but in the learning phase, I would so the dog's more clear on what is correct. JMHO. You can also teach the revier by yourself with a tug and the dog back tied or with someone holding your dog so the dog is not *quite* so amped with you so they can process better what's happening. Not to sound too much like a Michael Ellis fangirl, but one of their new DVDs shows how to do this and it's worked pretty good for my dog so far. I personally don't stress too much about the bark and hold yet since it's not in PSA until the level 2s I think, but it's something we work on.

Anyways, nice dog...thanks for posting and keep having fun.


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## Lisa Radcliffe (Jun 9, 2011)

Alison, I was looking to have the methology of this H&B training explained if there is one! to focus on the man first instead of teaching the bite for the reward of learning what is expected. Only because your dog is young and you said it was his 2nd or 3rd session. If he already had it and knew what he was doing I would not think it was so different, but to learn in this way, he looked like he really did not get it. I did see he was in prey well the bark and you did add in the sleeve and the bite and he looked like he got it then! But I have never trained man focus first or seen anyone else do it. Does not mean it will not work and it sounds like your club has found succsess that way. No I do not think all dogs should be trained the same way! far from it and I do not find it "shocking" as you state. I do know many people that train that way though. IMO the dog is the one to bring the fight to the helper and I could see that your dog as you say has "survived the pressure" and "thrived" on it!! I like dogs like that! but I know also that if a helper continues to work a dog like that, and they all like dogs like that! to push a young dog up that way too much and not work them more calm can cause control problems for the handler. That was what I mean't. I still do not know what you mean by your comments about your dog "will bite with out equipment" and you never addressed it. I understand what you mean by "clean" now but to say your dog is always clean at this early stage seems a bit forward to me, I have just read about another way to train the H&B so thanks for sharing and I wish you much fun training your dogs!


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Lisa Radcliffe said:


> Alison, I was looking to have the methology of this H&B training explained if there is one! to focus on the man first instead of teaching the bite for the reward of learning what is expected. Only because your dog is young and you said it was his 2nd or 3rd session. If he already had it and knew what he was doing I would not think it was so different, but to learn in this way, he looked like he really did not get it. I did see he was in prey well the bark and you did add in the sleeve and the bite and he looked like he got it then! But I have never trained man focus first or seen anyone else do it. Does not mean it will not work and it sounds like your club has found succsess that way. No I do not think all dogs should be trained the same way! far from it and I do not find it "shocking" as you state. I do know many people that train that way though. IMO the dog is the one to bring the fight to the helper and I could see that your dog as you say has "survived the pressure" and "thrived" on it!! I like dogs like that! but I know also that if a helper continues to work a dog like that, and they all like dogs like that! to push a young dog up that way too much and not work them more calm can cause control problems for the handler. That was what I mean't. I still do not know what you mean by your comments about your dog "will bite with out equipment" and you never addressed it. I understand what you mean by "clean" now but to say your dog is always clean at this early stage seems a bit forward to me, I have just read about another way to train the H&B so thanks for sharing and I wish you much fun training your dogs!


I am not speaking for Alison, but I can give my answer to some of that.

She says her dog will bite a person without equipment, that is fairly simple. The guy pops up his bare arm that dog will bite him...I imagine there have been either some errors by the "helper", the handler, or some sort of equipment error, where someone got bitten. And if has not been some sort of accident, the guy doing the work can pretty much see the dogs intent, and who knows what else has gone on before this....just guessing, but I imagine the guy has put his hands on the dog already...

Her interest in sport is secondary to her interest in making sure the dog will bite someone that does not have any equipment on, which she has basically stated pretty clearly by saying sport is secondary, PP is primary goal...

I would agree to say he is clean to the sleeve, might be just an assumption at this point, things can happen...especially when training like this. First time I sent my dog into a B&H with no line, she flew in and bit the "helper" in the top of the bib of the scratch pants, went right up and over, never even looked at the sleeve...they guy was holding the sleeve to his side though like you would with a finished dog, he knew the dog well, and admitted his mistake, considering the dog would bite someone for real since about 9 months of age...the first time she got a sleeve bite and the guy raised the stick and the dog popped off and put some holes in his stick arm....again on a tie-out, again a "helper" error...

One other guy made an error when doing targeting on a tie out, would not put jacket on backwards, but wore it normally and left it unbuckled to slip it...He juked a little as he went in (against my instructions, again), and the jacket flew open, dog went right inside and got him from his left armpit to the right side of his chest (skinny guy)...and did not let go right away..

Any dog that you train to bite people for real, can cause problems for the handler, if the handler does not know how to control the dog, and for careless helpers during training.

I highly doubt the dog is being worked in a fashion that is gonna go too far one way...This vid contained more sleeve work than not...I could be wrong, but the work has looked pretty good to me, all along...The guy in the vid looks like he knows what he is doing, and if he has gotten bitten in a training accident, that is on him, and him alone...he knows the dog..


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