# puppies learning detection work at 4 months



## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Here are some updated videos of our puppies who are now about 4 months old. We moved them from the scent tubes to the wall a few sessions ago. They are still learning how to search the wall, but the odor recognition is getting better, we are still shaping the final response and sometimes they will return back to the previous spot where they were rewarded from memory and try to lie to us, but overall I am pleased with the way they are progressing.
We have been pretty busy and haven't worked them as much as we would like to but they are figuring it out.
We will switch the Mali and the Dutchie over to a toy soon.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=spljT_K86vU&list=UUsBwSSZg7-4FkkW1pWhuM8A&index=4&feature=plcp

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AIErGQhW9d8&list=UUsBwSSZg7-4FkkW1pWhuM8A&index=3&feature=plcp

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQA2SThlmKc&list=UUsBwSSZg7-4FkkW1pWhuM8A&index=2&feature=plcp

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gz83a3vFyS0&list=UUsBwSSZg7-4FkkW1pWhuM8A&index=1&feature=plcp


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Thanks for sharing these! 

One of the complaints I've heard about starting pups so young is that they will learn to hunt/alert at puppy speed, and that will translate to slower work as adults. 

I'm interested to see how their speed and drive picks up when a toy is introduced as a reward.

I posted a lot about using a similar method (spin-off of Randy Hare's stuff) a couple of years ago. We adapted Randy's method to live-find disaster SAR. A woman who attended one of our seminars adopted our method, and uses it for her "started dog" program (she trains dogs to the FEMA FSA standard and then sells them). She routinely starts with young pups and has great results (multiple FEMA certified dogs across the country). I haven't seen any negative effects of starting the pups so young. 

It will be interesting to me to see if you get similar results.


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Nice work and nice dogs. I really appreciate you guys taking the time to post this stuff up. Gets me off my ass and makes me think and gives me inspiration ... keep it up!! Im gonna be calling and hounding you for some info (yes that is a warning lol)


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Looking forward to checking them out after work.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Konnie Hein said:


> Thanks for sharing these!
> 
> One of the complaints I've heard about starting pups so young is that they will learn to hunt/alert at puppy speed, and that will translate to slower work as adults.
> 
> I'm interested to see how their speed and drive picks up when a toy is introduced as a reward.


I agree, we have talked about this several times here. I will say when the Malinois and Dutchie were first started they showed more interest and enthusiasm. Now that we have changed the rules and made it much harder for them they are less enthused. We took them up to the school a couple days ago and just let them hunt for a toy, the intensity was much higher and they were much more driven to search.
Initially the two GSD pups were less intense than the Mali and Dutchie, however now they seem to be getting more motivated than they were for the food reward. 

All four pups hunt very well outside for any object, metal, pvc, ball, etc. So the hunt drive and intensity is there, but the added difficulty of the new rules to the game they know with target odor is slowing them down a bit at the moment. I believe the intesity will come back as they learn the rules better and we switch them to a toy as a reward, however since we are still shaping the behavior we want, we are still using food.


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## Kelly Godwin (Jul 25, 2011)

Nice videos, Mike, and very nice dogs! They are coming along nicely!


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## Gerald Dunn (Sep 24, 2011)

can you give me a close up picture of the wall and of the back unless it is your trade secret please


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

mike suttle said:


> I believe the intesity will come back as they learn the rules better and we switch them to a toy as a reward, ...


I believe that as well and am looking forward to those vids when the time comes.

I think it is important to document this kind of work. Then, when people say, "I think...," you can say, "I know...," and show them proof of it.


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Konnie Hein said:


> I believe that as well and am looking forward to those vids when the time comes.
> 
> I think it is important to document this kind of work. Then, when people say, "I think...," you can say, "I know...," and show them proof of it.


great point Konnie!!


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

I enjoyed the videos as well, but have to say the second video GSD I was impressed with as well but to me did lack something the three others did not lack and that was the willingness to get on there rear legs and search high and not be lazy, maybe I missed it if the 2nd video GSD did or the GSD does do that and just didnt for your video, but I have to say I am impressed for their age guys.

Also have not see slides really before in this matter have seen them before on individual scent boxes and have seen caps on walls, looks to be a good idea, if you dont mind me asking how are the slides engineered to the front of the boards to slide if you dont mind answering and sharing.


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## Ariel Peldunas (Oct 18, 2008)

Harry Keely said:


> I enjoyed the videos as well, but have to say the second video GSD I was impressed with as well but to me did lack something the three others did not lack and that was the willingness to get on there rear legs and search high and not be lazy, maybe I missed it if the 2nd video GSD did or the GSD does do that and just didnt for your video, but I have to say I am impressed for their age guys.
> 
> Also have not see slides really before in this matter have seen them before on individual scent boxes and have seen caps on walls, looks to be a good idea, if you dont mind me asking how are the slides engineered to the front of the boards to slide if you dont mind answering and sharing.


Not sure if you mean the GSD lacked the interest in searching high or just didn't show the same committment to standing on his hind legs and keeping his nose on the odor. The malinois and the dutchie have a much easier time with the high hides than the GSDs. I am sure part of it is their overall build and agility, but also, the height of the high hides is still a little too low for the GSDs. They have trouble keeping their feet on the wall and nose on the odor. We intend to make some that are a bit higher so they can balance more easily. 

As far as searching, the second GSD is one of the better pups as far as how well he details and recognizes the odor. The malinois and the first GSD tend to get discouraged more easily if they don't find it as quickly and if it's more difficult. We are still working on building search duration, but so far, they all seem to be progressing well. It's interesting to see the difference in personalities and recognize how to adapt the search scenario for each pup in order to improve the things we notice may be weak in each pup.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Thanks Mike and Ariel!
Once the pup make a find in a higher place does it make them search higher?
When I was doing live find with my then GSD pup he was having trouble making a find with the guy sitting in a tree. After he made that find it seems he was super focused on trees for a few sessions after that. 
When he settled down it did help him add the higher areas though.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Ariel Peldunas said:


> It's interesting to see the difference in personalities and recognize how to adapt the search scenario for each pup in order to improve the things we notice may be weak in each pup.


I think you put what I am trying to say pretty well in your above comment as far as the four of them.


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## kenneth roth (Jul 29, 2010)

lookin good mike nice setup u have bro just 1 thing the plywood your using causes cansor in humans could be worst for dogs that are more exsposted to it.

http://propex.com/C_f_env_formldy.htm

http://www.epa.gov/iaq/formalde.html


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## Ariel Peldunas (Oct 18, 2008)

kenneth roth said:


> lookin good mike nice setup u have bro just 1 thing the plywood your using causes cansor in humans could be worst for dogs that are more exsposted to it.
> 
> http://propex.com/C_f_env_formldy.htm
> 
> http://www.epa.gov/iaq/formalde.html


Thanks for the info. I did some research on the wall material we are using. It's Georgia Pacific OSB. From what I can tell, it doesn't use urea formaldehyde but phenol formaldehyde resin which off-gasses less than the urea formaldehyde and is considered safer. I'm sure it's still not perfectly safe, but it seems that everything causes cancer these days.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

"urea formaldehyde"

There is so much of that in homes today it's crazy. Yrs a go I had it pumped in the walls of my house for insulation. Worked great. Later on they outlawed it....then recinded that law because it's in the construction of cabinets, floors, roof sheathing, etc. You can hardly get away from it. 
Paint it and seal it in. That's also one of the options when asbestos is found in a house. You can pay up the wazoo to have it removed or just have it "encapsulated" meaning paint it.


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## Jackie Lockard (Oct 20, 2009)

Very cool videos.

There's a trainer out there who uses primarily food with puppies and every few reps she'll play tug with them to keep the intensity up.

click-click-click
playtime
back to work
(Rinse and repeat.)

Just a thought.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Jackie Lockard said:


> Very cool videos.
> 
> There's a trainer out there who uses primarily food with puppies and every few reps she'll play tug with them to keep the intensity up.
> 
> ...


we switched the mali pup over to a rubber hose today and it definately increased the intensity immediately.


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## Jackie Lockard (Oct 20, 2009)

mike suttle said:


> we switched the mali pup over to a rubber hose today and it definately increased the intensity immediately.


Did you lose any accuracy? I've only played around with the above method, haven't used it for any one thing start to finish myself. It seems sound, to keep both the accuracy of work and intensity.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Jackie Lockard said:


> Did you lose any accuracy? I've only played around with the above method, haven't used it for any one thing start to finish myself. It seems sound, to keep both the accuracy of work and intensity.


So far, no, but it was only one session. We will continue to reward only for the behavior we shaped with the food, but we'll see how things change now.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Hazardous material
Years ago brake shoes were made of asbestos and now someone says asbestos and you need a hazmat team
The same with lead and a dozen other things. A couple of weeks ago a bag of medical waste (from a tattoo parlor) fell out of a truck on I-25 and they shut down the lane and called out the Haz Mat team. Geez pick up the friggen bag and throw it in the truck.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

I am sure I am not the only one here who played with mercury from broken thermometers as a kid....


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Hazardous material
> Years ago brake shoes were made of asbestos and now someone says asbestos and you need a hazmat team
> The same with lead and a dozen other things. A couple of weeks ago a bag of medical waste (from a tattoo parlor) fell out of a truck on I-25 and they shut down the lane and called out the Haz Mat team. Geez pick up the friggen bag and throw it in the truck.


I wonder how many lead fishing weights I put in my mouth as a kid...used to just bite the splitshots...still do...

mercury was fun too....


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

Ariel Peldunas said:


> Not sure if you mean the GSD lacked the interest in searching high or just didn't show the same committment to standing on his hind legs and keeping his nose on the odor. The malinois and the dutchie have a much easier time with the high hides than the GSDs. I am sure part of it is their overall build and agility, but also, the height of the high hides is still a little too low for the GSDs. They have trouble keeping their feet on the wall and nose on the odor. We intend to make some that are a bit higher so they can balance more easily.
> 
> As far as searching, the second GSD is one of the better pups as far as how well he details and recognizes the odor. The malinois and the first GSD tend to get discouraged more easily if they don't find it as quickly and if it's more difficult. We are still working on building search duration, but so far, they all seem to be progressing well. It's interesting to see the difference in personalities and recognize how to adapt the search scenario for each pup in order to improve the things we notice may be weak in each pup.


I'm sure whatever Harry noticed was based on his bias against GSDs as a working breed:-({|=


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Nancy Jocoy said:


> I am sure I am not the only one here who played with mercury from broken thermometers as a kid....



The dentist actually gave it to us occasionally. We rolled it around in our hands with a penny and turned the penny "silver".
Break a florescent light tube now and they recommned you leave the room till it settles down.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> The dentist actually gave it to us occasionally. We rolled it around in our hands with a penny and turned the penny "silver".
> Break a florescent light tube now and they recommned you leave the room till it settles down.


You wonder how we all survived. When I was a kid everyone would run behind the DDT sprayer holding our breaths. You know we must have inhaled some of it. Not to mention actually drinking water out of a hose (not a bottle) or walking barefoot or playing in the mud or on "monkey bars" with no padding underneath 
Now kids are on antibiotics at every sniffle and bathed in antiseptics every time they scratch their nose. It's no wonder they're not resistant to anything :-(


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Question. Right now everytime they get rewarded they have their nose in the PVC pipe with the odor. How do you transition them away from having to stick their head in the pipe-do you just cover or move to smaller holes? 

Do you have any videos of dogs trained this way indicating say on a hide in a tree or under ground?

Definitely detailed little buggers.


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## Ariel Peldunas (Oct 18, 2008)

Nancy Jocoy said:


> Question. Right now everytime they get rewarded they have their nose in the PVC pipe with the odor. How do you transition them away from having to stick their head in the pipe-do you just cover or move to smaller holes?
> 
> Do you have any videos of dogs trained this way indicating say on a hide in a tree or under ground?
> 
> Definitely detailed little buggers.


Nancy, 

The videos in this thread actually show how we've been transistioning the puppies to search different surfaces. It sounds like you're referencing the videos from a few weeks back where the puppies were searching the tubes we started them on. After they were proficient on the PVC tubes, we moved them to something that looked similar but not the same. I don't remember if we took any videos of that. Once we moved to this wall, we used the clicker to help things remain consistent and assure the pups that, although the set up was very different, the odor still remained important and produced reward. There was some confusion at first, but because we are able to reward through a small hole in the wall, they caught back on very easily. I'm not sure if it's clear in the video, but the black and green things in the wall are just 4" plumbing vents with small holes in them for feeding hot dogs through. 

No videos of dogs searching outside just yet, but we can certainly get some posted soon. Once the dogs understand that being as close to source as possible and ignoring distractions is what produces reward, the transition is pretty easy. It's that same concept as any detection training ...with a BSD, with Randy Hare boxes ...we're just expecting a slightly different "final response" and trying to emphasize odor and staying at source over everything else.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

I was referencing the new videos where the head went in (a little) to the tubes in the wall for feeding...certainly not as much as in the big pipes.

I guess I was asking if the early long term constant association with the PVC and putting their nose in a hole could cause problems later on but I guess it is also a constant distractor from day one.

Looking forward to seeing the whole progression over time.

I actually did not use the BSD for odor recognition or hunting-we got the puppy to where he was consisent at hunting for and pinpointing source first. Just as a ball delivery tool for shaping the indication-and realize all that needs to be extinguished as well [association of BSD with target]


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

I think it's hard to see in the video, but the holes to feed through are very small. Actually, what you suggested about the dogs hunting for holes to stick their noses in is why I asked Mike to build this wall. I have seen dogs who get dependent upon only finding odor in holes big enough to stick their noses in and get rewarded from. Although the PVC is still present, you are right that there are many distractor tubes. 

I have used a variety of methods to train detection dogs (protocol boxes, scented toys, Hare boxes). We will see how different the end result is and hopefully be able to combine what works best of each method. I just like what I am seeing so far with the dogs we have been working with.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Not sure what's going on with my crazy phone. It's logged in under me (Ariel) but it's posting under Mike. Anyway, hopefully I didn't say anything Mike would be embarrassed to say, but this post and the last are from Ariel and not Mike.


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Nancy Jocoy said:


> I guess I was asking if the early long term constant association with the PVC and putting their nose in a hole could cause problems later on but I guess it is also a constant distractor from day one.


This is Pat Nolan's pup on his first time outside, away from the PVC tubes. I'm pretty sure he didn't use a wall with tubes like Ariel and Mike, but the original training (with PVC tubes) was very similar to what you saw in Ariel and Mike's first vids. You can see that the alert (a sit in this pup's case) deteriorates a lot when the environment changes, but the desire to follow target odor to source does not.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K9sx...xt=C3547673UDOEgsToPDskL8ln13IwM1-I5_XicWFyn9

For reference, this is what he looked like on the PVC tube set-up:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gT1M...xt=C32cdf3eUDOEgsToPDskIPDS9oSrY-U1cjNZuWaUGm


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Nice. Looks like he already has some committment too.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Nancy Jocoy said:


> I was referencing the new videos where the head went in (a little) to the tubes in the wall for feeding...certainly not as much as in the big pipes.
> 
> I guess I was asking if the early long term constant association with the PVC and putting their nose in a hole could cause problems later on but I guess it is also a constant distractor from day one.


Nancy,
It may be hard to see the caps we are using with the puppies on the wall. Here is a close up of one of them. It is not a PVC tube at all, it is a drain cap with a very small hole in it to feed the puppies through.
They can not put there heads (or even there noses) in these caps.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

MIke

Are the drain caps the only thing in the wall? Where is the odor source?


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

this is the way it is set up on the wall. The lighting behind the wall is not good so its hard to get good pictures there.


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## Gerald Dunn (Sep 24, 2011)

mike suttle said:


> this is the way it is set up on the wall. The lighting behind the wall is not good so its hard to get good pictures there.


thank you so much for the pictures, helps a lot, please keep us informed of the pups and what there doing, thanks again and keep the pictures and videos coming


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