# Training for the 'full mouth bite' in PPDs?



## Hoyt Yang

Didn't see this topic in the PPD section, but I am sure it's discussed somewhere here in the forums. How important is bite quality, specifically, a 'full mouth bite' when it comes to training your personal protection dogs? How many of you trainers out there prefer to see this trait, which originated from 'sport,' carry over to PP training? Or is a 'bite a bite,' regardless?

I read somewhere that frontal bites may not be as 'initially shocking' due to less total surface area pressure, but may ultimately cause greater laceration- resulting in a more severe injury (puncture and tear).

Either way, if I were a 'bad guy,' getting bit is going to be bad either way. But the questions is, for a PPD trainer, is there a preference, or is not important?


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## Kevin Powell

I can see how a dog sinking its canines into you and thrashing would tear and rip the flesh causing more damage than a full calm grip. I think it really comes down to why the dog is taking a frontal grip in the first place. If it's his first street bite and he is caught offguard by the new taste in his mouth or if he's biting shallow simply because of some other reason prevented him from getting a full grip that is one thing. But if the dog bites shallow everytime I would begin to question his nerves and whether he has the confidence to even engage at all. So, in closing if I was the one getting bit for real I would choose to be bit by a calm full bite. And if I was a buyer and I had to choose which dog to purchase I would take the one with the calm full grip. Simply because I would feel that dog is most confident in its abilities, all things being equal.


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## Gerry Grimwood

This from the " where should a PPD bite " just a few below this one, it's a classic =D> would a frontal or a full mouth bite be the best for beheading ??



Chris Masters said:


> The most effective and the best area to work on is the human neck. But breeds differ and dogs differ individualy. Some dogs will bit the nearest part of the body and some dog will go for a predefined target. IMO combination of both can be deadly. For eg: Bite the nearest parts and some how reach the throat, that is for sure an attempt to kill and by god it will behead the victim.


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## Kevin Powell

Gerry, that definitely is classic! There's the answer to your question Hoyt. It doesn't matter how the dog bites, just pop the collar on the bite suit and get to targeting the neck! You'll know when to out the dog when the decoy's head falls off. ](*,)


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## Hoyt Yang

Rotflmao!!! (starts searching for a 'neck sleeve')


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## Hank Springer

Mr. Yang, A full mouth bite is an important factor in the performance of a protection dog. A full mouth bite is more disabling than a shallow bite. 
I have trained a good many biting dogs in my fifty plus years of enteracting with dogs of various purpose, but have never trained one to deliver a full mouth bite. That deeply engaged bite that we like to see in a working dog is innately influenced by the dog's individual personality and can't be conditioned into his performance.
This comment is my opinion based on my personal experience. Others might differ.


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## Daryl Ehret

As a breeder, I would find it unthinkable to compromise a breeding with a lack of, in either parent. It's widely believed to be very hereditary (I hate the term "genetic" grips), and it's pretty despicable to see a dog in protection with bad grips. I've heard that some people claim they can train a full bite, but I really don't know who that would be.

I've had the good fortune of owning many dogs with nice grips, only one exception in a pup I very briefly owned. Even my "sweetheart" dog has full crushing grips, but lacks the "civil aggression" to use this on the schutzhund field. I would probably have better luck forcing her into hard civil drive, if she'd quit batting her lashes at the helper with that endearing look.


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## Bob Scott

Even if the deep bite is genetic it can be ruined with poor training. If it's a trained behaviour it will be ruined with stress. 
When done by a dog with the right character both are gonna hurt like hell!


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## Howard Gaines III

About three years ago, I took a live bite to the right wrist. It was from a male yellow Lab mix and with LOTS OF ATTITUDE. The bite was full, hard, and hurt like hell. It felt like the teeth were 4" long and went to the bone! If I had taken it from a trained dog, one that bites and fights and shakes the life out of you...well I would have been done!

Full and proper bite technique is the only way to do it for PPD work. A nip isn't going to get the job done, it will only piss off the bad guy. As to the location of the bite, soft tissue or thin skin is a plus. Make NO mistake about it; trained to target and hold are foremost in my book. I never felt so much pain in one location before!


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## Mike Talkington

Bob Scott said:


> Even if the deep bite is genetic it can be ruined with poor training.


Or when the poor training leads to cracking a 4 months old molar through the root....:x

I've been bit a couple of times by PSDs...once recieving stitches...the one that hurt the most was when no stiches were needed


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Yes, the grip in a PP dog is extremely important.....AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHA........After all, they are constantly in use....AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

****in Shysters. PP dogs are for those to weak to man up and go to a trial, or their dog is a flaming piece of crap that should have had it's neck twisted day one.

I have yet to have been proven wrong. Waste of time. Get a gun, or better yet, get someone to follow you around that will have the balls to shoot someone. AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHA

Every once in a while, I just have to let loose on this shit. Now back to your regularly scheduled thread.


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## Hoyt Yang

Allow... me... to... pull... that... stick... out... of.... your...

ARSE.

:mrgreen:




Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Yes, the grip in a PP dog is extremely important.....AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHA........After all, they are constantly in use....AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
> 
> ****in Shysters. PP dogs are for those to weak to man up and go to a trial, or their dog is a flaming piece of crap that should have had it's neck twisted day one.
> 
> I have yet to have been proven wrong. Waste of time. Get a gun, or better yet, get someone to follow you around that will have the balls to shoot someone. AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHA
> 
> Every once in a while, I just have to let loose on this shit. Now back to your regularly scheduled thread.


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## Howard Gaines III

Let the Dark Farce be with you!  
Too much politics in any sport for me. Can't suck up, can't play the game, and can't waste the time...
Tuning back to the regularly scheduled program for more educational enlightments! ](*,)


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## Chris Masters

Guys about the bite work on the neck thing... Its just my Openion, never tasted it.. But is it possible to train the dog for than?


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## Dan Long

Chris Masters said:


> Guys about the bite work on the neck thing... Its just my Openion, never tasted it.. But is it possible to train the dog for than?


Why? You can train targeting anywhere. Why you'd like to go for the neck is beyond me. An arm bite or leg bite is going to stop a bad guy. A neck bite is likely to kill him. Besides, most people think that when a dog attacks them they are going to go for their throat. My brother, all full of bravado, told me that if a dog ever came after him had catch it with his arm as it went for his throat, slam it to the ground and kill it. Iif a 90lb dog that meant business bit him on the arm, even if he didn't get knocked down by the impact, the only thing he'd be doing would be pissing his pants.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

You morons are talking about neck bites on a public forum ? ? ? ?

Think about what you are doing.


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## Chris Masters

@Jeff Oehlsen vbmenu_register("postmenu_93510", true); 
*Broke the Condom...*


Jeff Oehlsen said:


> You morons are talking about neck bites on a public forum ? ? ? ?
> 
> Think about what you are doing.


Not that my openions or questions are any of your bussiness, but 
*** MOD DELETED PARAGRAPH *** (Check your PMs.)

@ Dan Long...
Man I can't comment anything about slamming a dog. Specially a guard dog, it seems like, your brother is not made out of human flesh ))... Being a martial artist myself, I wouldn't dare to mess with a huge dog which is trained and bites. If I can connect a roundhouse mawashigiri to the dogs skull, I can crush it for sure and I have seen how quick my kick flows but a dog movement and his bite is quicker. He beats me to .05 ms at max.

Anyway, biting anything is very rookie talk. Kinda like mine  but I have seen dogs geting trained in the army several times. The reason they train to bite sleeves and leg is not just to immobiles but becuase they have a better grip to hold on to it. And spare me the kill $hit, in an army they use their dogs for war, catching terrorists so they realy don't give a dam if they die.

But for myself I have a lot to learn and thats why I have joined this forum, I maybe damn wrong often or may be right sometimes, plz don't mind me and do correct me pluse don't be a jack a$$ like Jeff A$$HOehlsen


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## Gillian Schuler

I wouldn't mind being a jackass like jeff oehlsen now and then


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## Kevin Powell

Hi Chris, what Jeff is trying to say in his "oh so eloquent way" is that the public already has misconceptions that dogs trained in bitework are out of control killers. We, as working dog trainers have a duty to act and speak responsibly. This is a forum that may be viewed by the general public and opinions and views about working dogs in general are formed by what we say. Neck bites and beheadings are not something that we train our dogs to do and are not politically correct conversation to be having. So, let's all try to get back on topic. I believe Hoyt's question was: how important is the full mouth grip to you and why?


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## Connie Sutherland

Kevin Powell said:


> I believe Hoyt's question was: how important is the full mouth grip to you and why?


Thank you, Kevin.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Is that how they talk in heaven ???

What would Jesus do Chris ?????

Sure, I am an asshole, but I am right. That is all that matters.


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## Chris Masters

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Is that how they talk in heaven ???
> 
> What would Jesus do Chris ?????
> 
> Sure, I am an asshole, but I am right. That is all that matters.


 
Jesus is on a vacation and he gave me the number to call on 666 in case of an emergency.

@To all
Like I said I am new here and have a lot to learn and I din know much of the forum issues.
About the question, I think full mouth bite basically covers a mollar bite area which according to the bite force has its peak biting force point PSI. So, I think it can be more effective on hands and legs cuz the gripping area is better than the rest of the body, cuz it would do more of a bone damage than of a flesh damage compared to premolars or Canine bite.


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## Hoyt Yang

No worries Chris. We're all here to learn, no matter how much experience we've had. And about the thread I've started- I personally have my answer, and it's through my own experiences. Out of curiosity, I wanted to learn what others here thought, not to start a debate or turn this into a thread of criticism.


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## Erik Berg

I think the power of the dogs attack/bite and the correct attitude is more important compared to if the dog bite with a full or half mouth when it comes to a PP-dog. Speaking of full-mouth bites, what would you say about this PSDs bite, has a thin bite on this film, some newsstory about a studdog used for the army and their breedingprogramm. Don´t know if it´s training,genetics or whatever in this case, but would you avoid using such a dog as stud if the bite was like the ones he showed in this film?

http://svt.se/content/1/c6/79/26/08/f-2007-0326-******.asx


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## Lee H Sternberg

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Yes, the grip in a PP dog is extremely important.....AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHA........After all, they are constantly in use....AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
> 
> ****in Shysters. PP dogs are for those to weak to man up and go to a trial, or their dog is a flaming piece of crap that should have had it's neck twisted day one.
> 
> I have yet to have been proven wrong. Waste of time. Get a gun, or better yet, get someone to follow you around that will have the balls to shoot someone. AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHA
> 
> Every once in a while, I just have to let loose on this shit. Now back to your regularly scheduled thread.



Maybe true in some cases but total BS in others. I don't care for generalizations on any subject. 

I for one don't like clubs of any kind, not just dog clubs. I think I'm too antisocial. I prefer one on one training with a professional trainer and I'm willing to pay for it.

My dog training interests are confined to obedience and bitework. As a for instance, I can't get my head into tracking.

I totally understand my attitude is in the minority. I also understand people who have the desire to participate in clubs and trails. That's just not where my personal interest lie. I've spent my whole career competing in business. My dogs are my relaxation.

If you ever vacation in North Idaho, Jeff, I would like you to work my dogs to see what you think. My dogs have been worked by some long time experienced experts who think they are pretty descent. One was so impressed he came out of retirement to help me. I have no problem with PMing you with their names.

I just don't care about "man up and go to a trial" and I don't think my dogs are "a flaming piece of crap".


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## Michelle Reusser

Erik, my guess is that dog was "affrodable" due to his grips. I was less than impressed with him but on the other hand the breeders I know, say grips are the easiest thing to get when breeding, so using a nice full grip female will hopefully set it strait right off and not need several generations to fix such a problem.

Now to take a chance and hope that grip isn't a nerve issue, is what bothers me. Dog seems kinda wishy washy on tle sleeve. I'm not convinced he even wants to be there. That wagging tail is a plea..."please release me so I can get away from this guy". He's got good OB and a big urge to please, that's why he bites, not because he enjoys biting.

I rather like a dog that gets off on biting and swallows the sleeve.


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## Michelle Reusser

Yuck, I watched it again and the dog was noisy on the bite as well. The dog is far away from the man durring the hold and bark, really I don't see and power or intesnity in this dogs bark, it's all an OB routine to him. I wish I could understand what was being said on the video.

Anyone else agree or dissagree?


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## Khoi Pham

Michelle Kehoe said:


> Yuck, I watched it again and the dog was noisy on the bite as well. The dog is far away from the man durring the hold and bark, really I don't see and power or intesnity in this dogs bark, it's all an OB routine to him. I wish I could understand what was being said on the video.
> 
> Anyone else agree or dissagree?


Yeah I agree, yuck is right (-:


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## Erik Berg

What is being is that he has a "breedingcontract" with the army, his owner also speaks about why the army is using him, he mentioned that the dog has excellent nerves, meaning able to focus and doing the right things even when in high drive or stressfull situations, and a great willignes to work long and hard.

Agree with the bite, on the other hand it´s a PSD so fullness of bite and perfect SCH-type of bark and hold is probably not the main and most important criteria. But I don´t think you can judge a dogs quality as a stud by just seeing two bites in a newsreport. If the dog is a bit noisy I don´t think is equal to bad dog, it a Nick vom Heiligenbösch son, and he was abit noisy to what I´ve seen.


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## Michelle Reusser

It's not just the noise, it is everything all together that makes me "feel" it's a nerve issue. All I have to go on is that video so I could be wrong, that's why I asked for different oppinions on my assesment. 

I wouldn't be inclined to say it's nerves from a growly/whinney bite or his not coming right in snug on the B&H or just his horrible grip but when they are all together in the same dog, it screams nerve issue to me. What can you show me that would change my mind and show "solid" nerves to anybody watching? 

He may have ok nerves, used to have full grips, come in hard and tight and quiet on the bite and someone may have been too compulsive with him to change that or a bad street fight but yet again, I'd say a dog with solid nerves would get over that without it drasticly changing his work forevermore.


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## Gillian Schuler

Erik Berg said:


> I think the power of the dogs attack/bite and the correct attitude is more important compared to if the dog bite with a full or half mouth when it comes to a PP-dog. Speaking of full-mouth bites, what would you say about this PSDs bite, has a thin bite on this film, some newsstory about a studdog used for the army and their breedingprogramm. Don´t know if it´s training,genetics or whatever in this case, but would you avoid using such a dog as stud if the bite was like the ones he showed in this film?
> 
> http://svt.se/content/1/c6/79/26/08/f-2007-0326-******.asx


This dog has no power in the attack and the decoy looked like he was slowing down for him to be able to "pinch" him. Containing was weak as well. I'm not a breeder but I wouldn't use him if I were. Just mating him to a bitch with good grips won't bring about any magic either.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Here we go again with the hold and bark having any meaning whatsoever.

Here is a dog that is being used by the military, so there should be something about the dog, yet a shaped exersize like the hold and bark is what you are looking at and critisizing.

Care to try and defend the hold and bark??? How is it that you place anything of any importance on this exersize ???? I am not being a complete smart ass, I just would like to start a discussion on this, so I can point out to you how you have been mislead as far as the importance of this exersize.

Everything about this exersize is shaped. EVERYTHING. Has nothing to do with what the dog is.


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## Michelle Reusser

I agree Gillian, if his grip was the only issue there might be hope but after reading the dog further, I don't think grips are his only shortcoming. He's pretty much lacking everything I look for in a dog (except bidability).


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## Erik Berg

Gillian, I was not reffering to this dog when I said the most important thing for a PP is not if the bite is full or not, it´s the correct attitude and willignes to attack whenever/whatever that is more important I would assume.

He has idela values when it comes to nerves on his selectiontest for the police, and the whole litter he comes from showing similar values. Obviously a great willignes for work according to his owner, more willing than him in the mornings As I said, two bites and a not so perfectly trained Bark and hold is not enough to diss the dog totaly. I see a dog with less than perfect grips doing a few bites for the TV-team, just for fun, maybe on a person the dog´s know very well, who knows. I guess to know the quality of the dog you must see his ability in his daily work and what he does when facing a real threat. If he was a lazy couch potato I wouldn´t think the army would be intressted, not if I see what other studs they have used.

Some dogs are perfect on a sleeve but are afraid of their own shadow, so I wouldn´t take fullnes of bite as the main criteria for what is a good servicedog. Nerves has such a broad meaning, but a little noise, not full grips and not doing a SCH-bark and hold, wich is a trained routine, doesn´t say so much about a dogs nerve,or? Nerves is more about being able to focus, react properly to different things, recover quick after something that scares the dog, the basic core of a good dog so to speak.


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## Gillian Schuler

Yes, I realised what you meant about the bites.

On the other hand for me it's just conjecture to say how the dog really is. All I had to go on was a video of a dog that looked as though it was on valium. 

Maybe it is a dog with strong nerves.........maybe not


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## Michelle Reusser

Jeff...again it's not just the B&H it's everything. Though he doesn't sound or look anything close to serious, can't even get close enough to the man to bump him or get in his face. Maybe it's just me but I don't see allot of serious dogs that are always so clean in the work. This dog reminds me of allot of "sport dogs" that are all sport, not ARMY strong in the least. Is this for the Swiss Army by chance?


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## Erik Berg

In a way he was on valium due to the slow-motion of the film at the first bite and at the end Otherwise he didn´t looked so much duller than other dogs doing a bark and hold I think, not really fair to compare to a top SCH-dog that has years of training and different kinds of "stimulation" to show a intense close bark and hold. And not so relevant for a dog that is supposed to produce armydogs. Many PSDs, or civilan dogs, I know have a bit of a distance to the decoy, they should be out of "kicking-range" it was traditionally taught, right or wrong who knows.

If his selectiontest is accurate he have good nerves, like his owner also pointed out, that´s all I know, was pretty popular as a stud for a while, but didn´t produced that good when it comes to HD it showed.


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## Michelle Reusser

Erik Berg said:


> In a way he was on valium due to the slow-motion of the film at the first bite and at the end Otherwise he didn´t looked so much duller than other dogs doing a bark and hold I think, not really fair to compare to a top SCH-dog that has years of training and different kinds of "stimulation" to show a intense close bark and hold. And not so relevant for a dog that is supposed to produce armydogs. Many PSDs, or civilan dogs, I know have a bit of a distance to the decoy, they should be out of "kicking-range" it was traditionally taught, right or wrong who knows.
> 
> If his selectiontest is accurate he have good nerves, like his owner also pointed out, that´s all I know, was pretty popular as a stud for a while, but didn´t produced that good when it comes to HD it showed.


Huh, I just started my dog 2 weeks ago on the H&B and he is up in the helper so to speak. We haven't worked any magic stimulation to bring him up to par, he just started out of the box intense. In regards to out of kicking range, how do you kick a dog that is standing on your feet? The dog should be looking through the helper or man, not just at his arm/sleeve and moving forward. If you want to put symantics into it, in the real world/the army world, what good is the B&H to this dog is he's not just working in sport? Cops don't even use the B&H. 

I didn't even want a B&H on my dog, he was trained with a silent sit guard, that is why only now at over age 2 we are just starting on the B&H. I don't need it in my venue but later will need a guard for the transport. I opted for the silent to make it easier to keep him clean but he's a quick learner and outs pretty well so I thought..."what the hell"? 

Yes go ahead and comment on the choke offs Jeff, the fact still remains when I do say out, he listens everytime and it's surely not making the dog shy of coming in or biting.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gXqwUDHaz6Y


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## Erik Berg

Well, if he comes to close in the bark and hold you can kick,stab or hit it with a stick, but who cares what is wrong or right in that matter, let´s just say that a very close B&H isn´t needed and trained for by many PSD-handlers. Bark and hold is used by cops here, on passive suspects when not commanded to engage, or when the dogs are not searching for criminals. Seems pretty common with different forms of "drive-building" in SCH, to make the dog more intense, personaly I´m more impressed with dogs that have most of their drives naturally, so comparing two dogs that had different type of training could give the wrong impression of a dog. 

Then I can´t see why you think a dirty dog is "serious" or strong, when this is just such a large degree depending on the training. Likewise, does a dog need to be serious when doing a routine they know is just a game of biting the sleeve, I think they know pretty well when things are for real in duty and when it´s just "playtime" with a routine they are used to.


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## Howard Gaines III

Erik Berg said:


> Well, if he comes to close in the bark and hold you can kick,stab or hit it with a stick, but who cares what is wrong or right in that matter, let´s just say that a very close B&H isn´t needed and trained for by many PSD-handlers. ... I think they know pretty well when things are for real in duty and when it´s just "playtime" with a routine they are used to.


Erik I see the B & H as a locating and informing tool only! The bad guy is in this room or closet. I would never ask my dog to do a close B & H for those reasons you mentioned. We do* bite and holds* as others here do. When the bad guy can sound like Little Richard..."Help me!" I know where they are and can best plan my next move. Snack...soda...oh and 911 call! \\/


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Michelle, just because a dog is on your feet does not mean you cannot hurt him. I do not know how this dog was trained, so that is a big factor in evaluating what you are seeing.

The B&H is a shaped exersize, and bouncing and barking are displacement behaviors, not aggression.


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## Barrie Kirkland

its simple... dog learn the hard way, first "real" search & detain with a close H&B followed by a boot in the chops will teach the dog to keep its distance.

Same reason an operational dog learns suspicion of people , & the fact its not sport & its not a game


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## Lyn Chen

On the army dog, what was the question? If it is a good dog or if it is a dog you will use as a stud? A dog being decent enough to get the job done should be no basis to use it for breeding.......


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## Erik Berg

I think the question was if it was a bad dog just because the bite wasn´t full. Probably he was used because he was more than just decent, when it comes to breeding you look at many aspects, health, mentality and overall quality of the whole litter a breedingdog comes from, one good dog in a mediocre litter is no breedingmaterial. But judging a dog in how it performs in sport or a few bites could be very missleading, especially if we are talking servicedogs that are supposed to work outside the "sterile" green field. Good bite and fine bark and holds on a field doesn´t say so much, look at this dog, a rejected policedog but a fine sportdog, not a rarity

https://secure.storegate.se/user/share.aspx?id=b7fc25a4-dc18-439c-b591-5da715c291d4 
http://www.avcentaurus.se/Movies/cliff_skydd1.wmv


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## Lyn Chen

For me, it is not necessarily whether the bite is full or not but whether it shifts (gets weaker, or the dog pops off the sleeve and rebites) if stress is put on the dog. Again maybe the dog is functional and pretty good despite it, but for breeding I would consider at least if this trait would get worse down the line, especially if it's something in response to stress. 

But then again, we have plenty of dogs coming down from dogs that do this. Timmy von der bosen Nachbarschaft, for one...generally agreed he looks worse than his brother Troll, but plenty of strong modern dogs come down from him. 

You are correct that there should be much more factors involved in breeding than "he barks and bites nice in the blind". Now tell that to breeders over here in NA.


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## Howard Gaines III

Barrie Kirkland said:


> its simple... dog learn the hard way, first "real" search & detain with a close H&B followed by a boot in the chops will teach the dog to keep its distance.
> 
> Same reason an operational dog learns suspicion of people , & the fact its not sport & its not a game


Now Barrie that's a prety salty attitude to have! :wink: Shouldn't all working police dogs be people friendly, tail wagging, baby kissing machines? I mean they are the servants of the public...O :twisted:


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quite frankly, the dog should be able to distinguish a small child as being a non threat.

Most of the problem is the handlers lack of experience. The dogs are isolated, and not around people that are not bad guys for a living.

Gee, that was a tough one to figure. K9 cops with no dog experience???? Who would have thunk it. ](*,) 

I hear it is a badge hunters waypoint for promotion as well.

Got to keep everything in perspective.


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## David Frost

Barrie Kirkland said:


> its simple... dog learn the hard way, first "real" search & detain with a close H&B followed by a boot in the chops will teach the dog to keep its distance.
> 
> Same reason an operational dog learns suspicion of people , & the fact its not sport & its not a game


What kind of dog would take a boot in the chops and not engage immediately? Whatever kind it is, I don't want it in my program.

DFrost


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## Jeff Oehlsen

English Alsations. LOL


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## Gillian Schuler

If you're going to be bloody minded then spell it right - it's Alsatians :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## Mike Scheiber

David Frost said:


> What kind of dog would take a boot in the chops and not engage immediately? Whatever kind it is, I don't want it in my program.
> 
> DFrost


Or better grab the boot as it leaves the ground


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## Jeff Oehlsen

I am typing not spelling. LOL


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## Howard Gaines III

Training a full bite can best be done with a smaller arm...no power lifters please. I'll be back! ;-)


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## Jerry Lyda

Back to the other thread, I don't care if my protection dog has a full mouth bite or not. I just want him to bite. More damage will be done with the canines than with the molers. If the dog gave him a good shake while on the bite I turely wouldn't care. Just give me time to get to safety or my weapon.


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## Patrick Murray

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> PP dogs are for those to weak to man up and go to a trial, or their dog is a flaming piece of crap that should have had it's neck twisted day one. I have yet to have been proven wrong.


Jeff, let me extend to you an invitation to come to my home and let´s see if my dog can enlighten you. The wife and I will take you out for dinner. Afterwards we can suck down some cold ones and talk dogs, sports, etc. 

... Mod delete ....


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## Hoyt Yang

.... deleted quote .... 
Pat- I'd be careful, Jeff may be up for the challenge.. better have a 'bulletproof' waiver!


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## Jeff Oehlsen

QUOTE: Jeff, let me extend to you an invitation to come to my home and let´s see if my dog can enlighten you. The wife and I will take you out for dinner. Afterwards we can suck down some cold ones and talk dogs, sports, etc.



.... Mod delete ....


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## Howard Gaines III

Jerry Lyda said:


> Back to the other thread, I don't care if my protection dog has a full mouth bite or not. I just want him to bite. More damage will be done with the canines than with the molers. If the dog gave him a good shake while on the bite I turely wouldn't care. Just give me time to get to safety or my weapon.


Jerry I like the way you are thinking...get a weapon? NO! A cold beer and watch the show. =D>


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## Patrick Murray

.....mod delete.....


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## Jeff Oehlsen

.... mod delete ....


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## Connie Sutherland

No posts like these will be left unedited.


And kidding or not, there won't be posts about getting drunk and sending PPDs on each other.

WTH?

You can go to other boards for that kind of crap.


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