# mistakes people make with thier working prospect puppies



## chris haynie

well the title says it all.

what are some of the stupidest mistakes ya'll have seen people make/made yourself with their working prospect puppies?

lets use the thread to discuss stupid shit that I should never do with the future pup, ill advised shit people do wrong a lot of the time, and/or mistakes ya'll have made with previous pups that you have corrected with your subsequent pups.


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## Debbie Skinner

chris haynie said:


> well the title says it all.
> 
> what are some of the stupidest mistakes ya'll have seen people make/made yourself with their working prospect puppies?
> 
> lets use the thread to discuss stupid shit that I should never do with the future pup, ill advised shit people do wrong a lot of the time, and/or mistakes ya'll have made with previous pups that you have corrected with your subsequent pups.


Be careful who does the foundation bite-work with your pup. "Certified" helper/decoy or because someone is holding a seminar doesn't mean the person is good with puppies. Stick with a trusted decoy/helper (good with puppies) for the foundation.

Don't make the puppy live in the house with a bunch of rules. The puppy should have his own place where he can run and play w/o rules.


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## Geoff Empey

chris haynie said:


> what are some of the stupidest mistakes ya'll have seen people make/made yourself with their working prospect puppies?



The biggest is to loose patience .. 

Next is to expect to much ...


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## John Haudenshield

I'll second Goeff & Debbie, especially on the expectations. If you start putting a whole bunch of pressure on yourself, it's going to end up down the leash. Let the pup be a pup.

Also, especially if you're relatively new to working dogs, pick A JOB and stick too it. Just b/c it's a great Malinois puppy, don't try to do SchH, Ring, SAR, & the whole list of NAPWDA certifications with the dog. Each one of these is difficult enough, especially for the newbie. What happens is that you start a dozen things and never finish one of them. JMO.


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## Gillian Schuler

Think it's still a pup when it's already a dog....albeit a young dog....


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## Howard Gaines III

Debbie is preaching good here!!!


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## Christopher Smith

Before you take advise from someone take a look at their dogs and their accomplishments with their dogs. There are a lot of people that talk and type a good game but when they drop the tailgate you will see it’s all bullshit.

Never take your dog to a seminar unless you know the presenter. I have seen more dogs screwed-up at seminars than I care to count. 

KISS (keep it simple stupid). Train your first dog using tried and true methods. Don’t just jump on the latest methods because some big name guy is doing it. They have the skill and experience to correct the fallout from a method and you don’t. 

There is no substitute for hard work. 
[FONT=&quot]
And the most important thing of all is to build a good relationship with your dog. You will make mistakes with your dog and a good relationship can help you correct a lot of problems[/FONT]


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## Josh Mueller

If you feel uncomfortable or unsure with what a trainer or helper trying to get you or your dog to do.......stop.......Always easier to take a few steps back than to run into a brick wall doing too much too fast.

Trust your gut.......after all you know the dog better than anyone.


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## Erynn Lucas

1. Don't encourage the puppy to "kill" it by thrashing and chewing. Who knew? I used to tell her to get it and praise for this behavior. Not so great for the grip.

2. Don't be afraid to go back to basics.


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## Sue DiCero

Christopher Smith said:


> Before you take advise from someone take a look at their dogs and their accomplishments with their dogs. There are a lot of people that talk and type a good game but when they drop the tailgate you will see it’s all bullshit.
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> 
> Same as the "breeders" that have never raised and worked a puppy, dog, but yet can select a puppy for any endeavor. Have never titled a dog, but want you to title a dog and offer $$ back.....


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## Meng Xiong

Geoff Empey said:


> The biggest is to loose patience ..
> 
> Next is to expect to much ...


This would be the biggest thing ive learned so far. ](*,)8)


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## Courtney Guthrie

Meng Xiong said:


> This would be the biggest thing ive learned so far. ](*,)8)


Yeah, those you listed and this one for me as well....



> Don't make the puppy live in the house with a bunch of rules. The puppy should have his own place where he can run and play w/o rules.


I lose my patience and expect too much, too often. I am better than I was but nowhere, near where I need to be!!


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## James Downey

When I see posts like this, I think back to when I first entered the sport, and wanted to avoid the pitfalls others made. I thought if I could learn from what they did wrong. I will be better off then they were. And to a point that was true. I needed the folks I was with to guide me and teach me. But for the most part, I am very grateful that I was told to not fear mistakes, and welcome them, embrace them. I was told to try and think for myself, come up with a plan, and stick to it, then be observant... Keeping true to this. I have found that some of the training I did which I thought worked, was not the smartest course of action. And other things I thought I had failed...still had merit. 

So, I think the biggest mistake I had in the beginning was being afraid to make a mistake. I was very absorbed with wanting others to think I was a good trainer.


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## chris haynie

James Downey said:


> So, I think the biggest mistake I had in the beginning was being afraid to make a mistake. I was very absorbed with wanting others to think I was a good trainer.


I think your advice is right on James. When i first started going to clubs and trials and researching on Schutzhund i was so apprehensive that if i didn't do everything exactly "right" i'd end up with some pyscho dog or a dog who couldn't work and be a good companion. 

i don't care at all if others think im a good trainer, and i know i will make mistakes. I feel that without error there can be no progression (in any learning experience, not just dog training), however i feel it would negligent to not take in common mistakes and learn from folks with a vast amount of knoweldge, especially when a lot of ya'll are so easy for me to pester with questions.

my future pups behavior and accomplishments/titles when she reaches adulthood will be all i will need to verify to myself that i have done good with the training.

thanks for the info ya'll. many good points were raised here and i'll be thinking on these this evening and tomorrow and will be back with more ?s


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## Bob Scott

Out think the pup instead of overpowering it.


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## Mike Lauer

I am also a beginner so i say this not as an all knowing trainer but as a guy that is learning these lessons right now. 
The don't expect too much rings true with me but it is don't expect to much too soon.
you should expect a ton but realize it may take forever to get there
as soon as i relaxed and understood it may take 3 years to get where I want to be not 3 months I had a lot less anxiety


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## ann schnerre

the one thing i've learned: don't let the fear of screwing up your dog prevent you from moving forward!

i fight this battle every day--don't want to "ruin" my pup,yet, when i think about it, i'm "over-thinking" stuff. go with the flow, do the best you can and remember that it's the journey that counts--not the end (cause we all know where the end is, right?).

and that's all the philosophical stuff i've got for now


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## Sarah ten Bensel

OK I am new to "working dogs" But I can say the biggest mistake I made with my pups has been - not being clear and being inconsistent. I also taught my Nandi to be lazy and could have done more to bring out a work ethic in him as a youngster - this has created problems later
I just picked up my new pup TODAY! (See the signature) Now I get to make different mistakes!!!


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## chris haynie

congrats sarah!

thanks for the good advice ya'll. keep the suggestions coming.


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## Carmen van de Kamp

in training (and in living) keep in mind that it is a pup,
and that you cannot skip "kindergarten" and go to the university directly....
think about what you want to train (I don't train with the pups, I start when the are already a little bit more mature, but then it is the same) and divide that final result in small steps, DON'T skip a step as the dog will not understand what you mean

and I did make this mistake with my first dog, but luckily he managed well....not every dog accepts that kinds of mistakes (changing training vision too often as being led by others (unsecure about giving my own opinion in the start) seeing the exercise as a whole and missing the path towards the end of the exercise and doing that demanding something the dog cannot understand at that moment.....) and still keeps working....


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## Rigel Lancero

Introducing defense too early is one sure way of ruining a dog.


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## Colin Chin

Rigel Lancero said:


> Introducing defense too early is one sure way of ruining a dog.


Rigel,
How early is too early ? Thanks.

Colin


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## Chris Michalek

Colin Chin said:


> Rigel,
> How early is too early ? Thanks.
> 
> Colin


it depends on the dog.


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## James Downey

chris haynie said:


> well the title says it all.
> 
> what are some of the stupidest mistakes ya'll have seen people make/made yourself with their working prospect puppies?
> 
> lets use the thread to discuss stupid shit that I should never do with the future pup, ill advised shit people do wrong a lot of the time, and/or mistakes ya'll have made with previous pups that you have corrected with your subsequent pups.


Another good thing worth noting is too much early obedience (formal) and not enough "growing" the puppy will turn a good puppy into a flat puppy. I think people are so interested in making obedience early thinking that if they do, they will somehow be ahead. I think this is the furthest thing from the truth. Even if done motivationally, Obedience teaches the dog to contain itself. And I think this can detract from the dogs animation. I also think this can detract from the relationship. If I had met a new friend and he tells me we are going to play a game together, but keeps telling me the rules over and over again. I may play with him, but if something better comes along. I may go do that also. So, What I do is just go for walks. Play games...and **** the rules at first. Just play.


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## Colin Chin

James Downey said:


> Another good thing worth noting is too much early obedience (formal) and not enough "growing" the puppy will turn a good puppy into a flat puppy. I think people are so interested in making obedience early thinking that if they do, they will somehow be ahead. I think this is the furthest thing from the truth. Even if done motivationally, Obedience teaches the dog to contain itself. And I think this can detract from the dogs animation. I also think this can detract from the relationship. If I had met a new friend and he tells me we are going to play a game together, but keeps telling me the rules over and over again. I may play with him, but if something better comes along. I may go do that also. So, What I do is just go for walks. Play games...and **** the rules at first. Just play.


Hi James,
I have a ten weeks old pup. I basically doing nothing with her now except letting grow and she gets to do anything she wants as long as nobody gets hurt. Except before I put down her bowl of food, she must sit first, before coming out from her kennel or crate she must calm down, not jumping like mad. Guess that OB for me. When should I started formal OB ? Now, just some balls fetching, tug play. Call her name so that she comes to me, walking off leash in the park, recall. Meeting ppl, seeing new places. Thanks.

Colin


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## Colin Chin

Chris Michalek said:


> it depends on the dog.


Chris,
Thanks.


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## James Downey

Colin Chin said:


> Hi James,
> I have a ten weeks old pup. I basically doing nothing with her now except letting grow and she gets to do anything she wants as long as nobody gets hurt. Except before I put down her bowl of food, she must sit first, before coming out from her kennel or crate she must calm down, not jumping like mad. Guess that OB for me. When should I started formal OB ? Now, just some balls fetching, tug play. Call her name so that she comes to me, walking off leash in the park, recall. Meeting ppl, seeing new places. Thanks.
> 
> Colin


 
Colin,

First the disclaimer...I humbly say, I have not arrived as a dog training guru yet. But some things you could do now with the food and the crate are this. with the food. Put the bowl down, with the dog just out of reach on a leash. Just let the dog pull, and try to get to the bowl, sooner or later the dog will look at you...out of fustration, looking for guidance...it does not really matter why. but as soon as the dog looks at you let the dog have it's dinner. you could and should mark the behavior also. But getting the food should be exciting. I am not sure how you making the dog behave, but I would shy away from anything that makes getting the food seem like a chore. let them be happy about meal time.

And with the crate, let the dog come out crazy and play for a few minutes. then put the dog back in the crate. let them calm down, then let them come out again...no ob. if they come out crazy just ignore. and let them be. this will help with building drive. But I understand if you do not like this....many people do not. But most dogs work right when the come out of the crate...so why not have them crazy? you can use all the energy later and turn the games into rewards, and the energy into ob. When I put them back in I give them a tasty bone or kong to chew on. this keeps them calm in the crate. But I want my dogs trying to bust out when they see me coming.

As for formal OB. I wait until the dog is almost a year old...


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## James Downey

I wait till thier older because for one, I think that puppy hood could be better spent playing games and building relationship and seeing the world.

And also, I think thier nothing to be gained, but everything to be lost by doing early ob. puppies are not emotionally mature yet, so it's easier to mark them when thier young. And it does depend on the dog. But I also think that this takes some experience to figure out which dogs can be thrown to the wolves and which dogs are little slower to mature. with that being said, if I had any doubt...going slow and waiting is better option. 

Other than that, the only thing I focus on teaching the puppy, is how I am going to communicate with them... markers, leash pressure, praise, no reward markers that kind of thing.


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## Sarah Atlas

learning to accept the fact that your dog might not be suitable for the task you have selected for it. e.g. cadaver work...some dogs don't like it. 

also
don't expect your dog to be like your "former " dog just because it's a German Shepherd. They, like we humans have our own distinct personalities.


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## James Downey

Sarah Atlas said:


> learning to accept the fact that your dog might not be suitable for the task you have selected for it. e.g. cadaver work...some dogs don't like it.
> 
> also
> don't expect your dog to be like your "former " dog just because it's a German Shepherd. They, like we humans have our own distinct personalities.


I think that's a good one, And one did not even think about. Placing expectations on a puppy that they may not be able to live up to...even if it's only for the moment because they are puppies. Seen a lot of good pups get ruined because people wanted them to be dogs, or because thier last puppy could do it.


Here's another mistake. Just because your dog can do something that's unpleasent without showing discomfort does not mean you should do it. When I work peoples dogs, some will say oh you can hit em' hard....he can take it. They will ask for this every training session. Then 6 months later the dog starts trying to get out of the pocket and avoid the stick. And guess who gets blamed for it.


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## Rigel Lancero

Colin Chin said:


> Rigel,
> How early is too early ? Thanks.
> 
> Colin


It depends on each dog.

A good handler and a good decoy is the key.


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## James Downey

Rigel Lancero said:


> Introducing defense too early is one sure way of ruining a dog.


And though if your just doing sport Defense all though nice, is not requirement to have success. But if you do want to have some defense...introducing too late has reprocussions also.


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## Rigel Lancero

James Downey said:


> And though if your just doing sport Defense all though nice, is not requirement to have success. But if you do want to have some defense...introducing too late has reprocussions also.


I think if a certain dog has "it" to do protection work introducing it late might get a little bumpy at first but at the end of it the dog will show what he is truly made of.

But of course,introducing it at the proper time and with the proper way is still the best.


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## Chris Michalek

Colin Chin said:


> Chris,
> Thanks.



We didn't introduce any defense on my Rottie until he was 11 mo old. Rotts tend to be more defensive than prey driven so his prey drive was worked endlessly until I was happy with it. It was clear he always had the defense to him but we wanted to wait until he was older. We didn't get serious with him until he was almost 18mo. 

At some point the dog needs to be taught how to deal with pressure so don't start it too late.

With my Mal we started introducing it at around 6mo he's 15mo now and we still haven't brought the serious shit to him but he doesn't need it. He's showing that he's got a very serious side to him and ultimately I don't want a super crazy dog. He learns so fast that one little mistake could set us back for a long time, so we go slow and make sure everything is correct and he only works on experienced helpers.

When we introduce defense at first its very very quick. The Helper moves in with prey movement...zig zag and flapping the sleeve arm as if he were a chicken trying to fly. Helper does a few run bys and makes the dog miss then for a brief moment, helper gets full frontal on the dog and then a quick step back to give a bite. You can increase the pressure with eye contact and yelling. 

There is a lot more to this kind of work so don't do it unless you know how to read a dog.


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## James Downey

Rigel Lancero said:


> I think if a certain dog has "it" to do protection work introducing it late might get a little bumpy at first but at the end of it the dog will show what he is truly made of.
> 
> But of course,introducing it at the proper time and with the proper way is still the best.


 
I do not think that's true. I think that if you classicly condition the dog enough times to the cues of protection work with prey drive....you'll get a dog that's locked into prey, and will never see anything as a threat to evoke defense. especially high drive dogs.


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## Rigel Lancero

James Downey said:


> I do not think that's true. I think that if you classicly condition the dog enough times to the cues of protection work with prey drive....you'll get a dog that's locked into prey, and will never see anything as a threat to evoke defense. especially high drive dogs.


There's truth on this that's why _some_ handlers that are grooming dogs for protection work don't give too much prey work on their pups.

So there are issues and debates on sport dogs being shifted from sport to protection work or police work,some say it won't work some say it depends on each dog. I say,it depends on each dog,there are sport dogs that can handle the pressures from doing protection work and police work and some will be locked in prey as not all dogs are the same,so generalizing is a bit unfair.


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## Rigel Lancero

Chris Michalek said:


> There is a lot more to this kind of work so don't do it unless you know how to read a dog[/B].


I agree!


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## Al Curbow

I wish i had a puppy here all the time. I think people tend not to enjoy them, i love teaching puppies and watching the light bulb go on all the time.


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## James Downey

Rigel Lancero said:


> There's truth on this that's why _some_ handlers that are grooming dogs for protection work don't give too much prey work on their pups.
> 
> So there are issues and debates on sport dogs being shifted from sport to protection work or police work,some say it won't work some say it depends on each dog. I say,it depends on each dog,there are sport dogs that can handle the pressures from doing protection work and police work and some will be locked in prey as not all dogs are the same,so generalizing is a bit unfair.


Hence the qualifier at the end....Especially high drive dogs. I think we are arguing similar points. I agree with what you are saying. I think I just interpeted it wrong.


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## Rigel Lancero

James Downey said:


> Hence the qualifier at the end....Especially high drive dogs. *I think we are arguing similar points.* I agree with what you are saying. I think I just interpeted it wrong.


Hi James

I think so too 

Do you think high drive pups would have less potential for protection or police work or it's just that they have a bigger chance of locking themselves into prey if they are trained in prey since pups and have less courage to face a real threat?


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