# Knee Injury



## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

First, some background
June 19th - The dogs were outside running around in the back yard, playing fetch, etc. I noticed that Kita was moving a little "off" in the rear, not limping just a minor movement change. Didn't think much of it, figured she smacked her foot on something or ... Took the dogs inside about an hour later, she was still just "off", not limping. 1/2 hour after that she was limping, 1.5-2 hours later she was 3 legged and in a lot of pain. Any manipulation by me, or bumping of the leg while hopping around resulted in her crying out.

June 20th - took her to the vet. He said it looked like a textbook cruciate injury, manipulated her leg, then sedated her for x-rays and more manipulation. Can get no drawer movement at all, or any other movement in a wrong direction that would indicate ligament injury, also found nothing on the xrays indicating any bone injury. Biggest pain reaction was when he put pressure on the bone just above the knee, but it xrayed fine. Thought it was just a sprain, recommended 2 weeks crate rest and Rimadyl.

About 10 days into the crate rest I called the vet, Kita was still on 3 legs and I didn't see that changing by day 14. She'd take an occasional step but that was it. He recommended 1 more week of crate rest and bring her in for a follow up appointment.

We did the follow up appointment yesterday, it's been almost 3 weeks now (this happened on a Sunday). Kita will take maybe 2 steps out of 10 with the back leg, the rest of the time she's 3 legged. Sometimes she'll use the leg for more steps, but then she's 3 legged again for longer, like she over did it just with those 5-6 steps. Still no drawer movement, but she's very tender when he puts pressure right on the front of the knee. Now he's worried about meniscus or patella (a tendon or ligament in the patella?) injury. She's got an appointment with a specialist for next Friday, until then more crate rest and Rimadyl.

It's been years since one of my dogs had a major soft tissue injury. But what I remember is a 6-8 week recovery time and actually we went back to work a little early, he started limping again, and there was another 2-3 weeks of crate time. So are we jumping the gun here thinking she should be recovered by now? I thought 2 weeks seemed ambitious for a full recovery, even if it was just a sprain and not torn ligaments, am I that far off? I know when I blew out my knee decoying, it was almost 6 months before I was pain free, the first month was the worst of it, but it took 2 months before I wasn't limping, and another 3-4 before I wasn't getting occasional stabs of pain if I stepped wrong. But I had almost a full tear of the MCL, just threads left, and we know Kita's isn't that bad since there is no "play" in the knee.

Anyone have a similar injury and how long did it take to heal up?


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## Dave Martin (Aug 11, 2010)

Sorry no experience with this, Kadi, but I wish Kita a full recovery. Hopefully it just needs a little more time than your vet originally predicted.


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## Carolyn Pettigrew (Dec 7, 2010)

I also hope she recovers fully and just needs more of the resting and conservative management plan! It took my knee a long time, longer than my PT predicted, to feel mostly normal after I got hit by a car. 

You may want to check out the Yahoo group, Orthodogs. I have several friends with dogs who have had knee issues and the group has been an excellent resource. Many are still very competitive thanks to skilled, sports-oriented practitioners.


Sent from my ATRIX using Tapatalk


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## Tanya Beka (Aug 12, 2008)

Can take up to 3-6 months to recover without surgery. Mine did with crate rest, walks and NO RUNNING or JUMPING for several months. Was hard, but now he's good as new. Good supplements, good food, he's been healed now for 5 years and can run and jump with the best of them.


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## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

Fils had a knee injury when he was 3yrs old. Rupture in knee ligament.
Several vets said he needed surgery and would be lost for competition.
I took him to an osteopath, who combined the manual therapy with homeopathy. After 1 month he was doing light workouts next to my bike. 
I kept him out of competition that season and concentrated on rehab. A lot of swimming and bike workouts.
Light trotting on the treadmill.
He recovered fine and never had any problem with the knee again during his whole sports career.

One thing I'd advise and that is to take your time to let it fully recover.


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Kadi i wish i could offer some helpful advice. But i cannot. I had a dog a few years ago that stepped in a post hole and gimped around for at least 2 months. She slowly came back around. I did put her on the bench and shes still out of the game. I wish your dog a speedy recovery and best of luck to you. Id be curious whats going on. Please let us know how it comes out.


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## Tammy St. Louis (Feb 17, 2010)

my only experience is with my am staff Reason, he came up lame after a walk on his back leg, i rested for a day or 2 still no real weight bearing on it ,he could tip toe sometimes,
vet looked for a drawer ,, nothing, we rested , and came back a few weeks later, still the same, he could toe touch a bit, i told the vet i know something is wrong for sure, i thought i was a cruciate, 
he checked again, no drawer, we put him under to ensure he was relaxed, no drawer, exrayed , nothing on the exray , 
so back to resting, this went on for about a yr, resting on and off, i took him to the vet about 5 times during that time, he never found anything, i still felt it was cruciate, 
I decided , frig it , he was going back to normal exercise he was going mental, high energy dog, 
so we were out one day , and came back from a bush walk run,, came in 3 legged again, and brought him into the vet, and it WAS a cruciate, it was now totally blown, and there was a drawer
took him to the specilist to do TPLO and he said it has been partially torn probabaly the whole yr , 
but due to how muscled he was they could not see a drawer or anything, the muscles were holding the leg together, we did the surgery ,went well , 6 months later he blew the other leg, 
takes about 8 weeks to start getting them back out for short walks, but about 6 months a leg to actually heal 
he is now 10 yrs old and goes like a crazy ass dog,, he had his surgery at 6 and 7 yrs old..

hope its not that for Kita, but the specialist should be able to give you better answer


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## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

With Fils there was no "drawer" either and still there was a rupture in the ligament.


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## Tammy St. Louis (Feb 17, 2010)

how did they know the ligament was injured? 
martine


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## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

Tammy St. Louis said:


> how did they know the ligament was injured?
> martine



Even though the other vets didn't feel any anomalies, the osteopath diagnosed a slight drawer effect and a swelling. Knee was warm too. He said the fact that the dog had very strong muscles kept the knee together.
Also when Fils sat down, he slightly turned the injured knee to the outside.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Martine Loots said:


> Even though the other vets didn't feel any anomalies, the osteopath diagnosed a slight drawer effect and a swelling. Knee was warm too. He said the fact that the dog had very strong muscles kept the knee together.
> Also when Fils sat down, he slightly turned the injured knee to the outside.


Kita had a lot of swelling, which has gone away about 90%, but is still localized right around the joint. She also does the turning of the knee to the outside when she sits or lays down. At this point though she's already got some pretty obvious muscle atrophy in the injured leg, the difference in muscle tone between the two back legs if visibly obvious, which I would think would make any drawer movement easier to "read". We'll see what happens next Friday, my vet mentioned the specialist might want to do an MRI.


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## Chris Jones II (Mar 20, 2011)

Have you considered Osteochontritis Dessicans?  

If the cranial cruciate ligament is ruptured the knee usually turns in toward the dog, not out away from the dog as Martine described. 

Our GSD had a ruptured ccl and we treated it with 8 weeks of short leash walks and another 4 weeks of physical therapy. He has been perfectly fine ever since and that was 5 years ago.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Chris Jones II said:


> Have you considered Osteochontritis Dessicans?
> 
> If the cranial cruciate ligament is ruptured the knee usually turns in toward the dog, not out away from the dog as Martine described.
> 
> Our GSD had a ruptured ccl and we treated it with 8 weeks of short leash walks and another 4 weeks of physical therapy. He has been perfectly fine ever since and that was 5 years ago.


 
Is that not a condition of the shoulder ? Pardon the ignorance.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

If she would stay in a x-pen, I'd do that over a crate. One of my dogs several years ago had a knee injury and was on three legs. The exam ruled out ACL. I think it took a couple of weeks and he was back to full function. I'd watch the Rimadyl. The topical stuff for horses is good for inflammation locally.

Terrasita


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Chris Jones II said:


> Have you considered Osteochontritis Dessicans?
> 
> If the cranial cruciate ligament is ruptured the knee usually turns in toward the dog, not out away from the dog as Martine described.
> 
> Our GSD had a ruptured ccl and we treated it with 8 weeks of short leash walks and another 4 weeks of physical therapy. He has been perfectly fine ever since and that was 5 years ago.


Osteochondrosis dissicans (OCD) is usually elbow or shoulder, so less likely than in the stifle. It's typically found in dogs a bit younger than Kadi's dog. If the CCL is ruptured, SOMETIMES the dog has a positive "sits test." And the knee affected points outward, not in for the sit test. When a dog is partially weight bearing, the stifle will SOMETIMES point in while walking, but not always. 

CCL rupture in dogs is like it is in people: some dogs have drawer, some don't. Many have meniscal tears, some don't. Many have the other leg affected as well, others don't. Others might have a meniscal tear and a total rupture and be weight bearing and others might have only partial tears of the meniscus or cruciate ligament and be totally non weight bearing. Isn't this fun to diagnose yet? :grin:


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

For anyone who's interested, I had been looking for a good video online. Here's a good one that shows a positive sit test at 3:25 and demonstrates positive drawer sign at 0:52. Note: don't try it at home as the video makes it look really, really easy. It often takes light sedation for a drawer test to be more obvious as I've had it done on me by a physician and it's not real comfortable. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wzOdW2UwTEA


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## Erica Boling (Jun 17, 2008)

My Malinois was just diagnosed with a strained iliopsoas (groin muscle). A canine physical therapist diagnosed it after two orthopedic surgeons and my regular vet insisted it was just Pano. Even when I told the vets what the physical therapist said, they still insisted it was not a muscle issue. I've been doing a lot of reading on this. A not-so-serious strain can easily take 6-8 weeks to heal and return to regular training. I've heard of more serious ones lasting 6 months to heal. The weeks of not knowing what was wrong drove me crazy. I hope you can get your answers soon.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Chris Jones II said:


> Have you considered Osteochontritis Dessicans?


The vet very briefly mentioned OCD when we were talking, I thought that was just a shoulder thing like someone else mentioned, but realized after research not always. At this point I think that's why he's refering me to the specialist, he's done what he can to diagnose it and thinks an MRI might be needed to be sure. And he's concerned a misdiagnosis will result in incorrect treatment and it not healing properly, or as fast, or ...

Thanks everyone for the input, I'm really thinking we are just expecting to much to fast in terms of healing, but it will be good to know for sure what we are dealing with.

Kita would stay in an x-pen, but I'd really only feel comfortable with her in there supervised, and when I can supervise, she's out of the crate on a leash laying next to me. She'a spinner, spins to the right and it's the right leg she hurt, I don't think that's a coincidence. But I'd be worried about her spinning in the x-pen if she got wound up about the cats, other dogs playing, etc. She's crated in my bedroom by the bed, where it's generally quieter.


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> The vet very briefly mentioned OCD when we were talking, I thought that was just a shoulder thing like someone else mentioned, but realized after research not always. At this point I think that's why he's refering me to the specialist, he's done what he can to diagnose it and thinks an MRI might be needed to be sure. And he's concerned a misdiagnosis will result in incorrect treatment and it not healing properly, or as fast, or ...
> 
> .


Yes I agree best to get a specialist consult. My ACD has ruptured both her cruciates and the first one was misdiagnosed by the vet, leading in a delay of treatment. The specialist finally diagnosed it but it was quite difficult as it didnt really present as a cruciate problem.

As an aside she had TPLO surgery on both knees and continued to compete in agility untill she was 9 and several years later is still in good health and sound, with no major problems in either rear leg.

A friend had knee problems in one of her Whippits after some heavy running and that also was complicated to diagnose and they finally went in with an arthroscope and diagnosed the problem which has been corrected with surgery.

Good luck


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## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

I didn't keep Fils crated except for the first 3 days. Then I took him to work with me in the van.
He is a very calm dog in his kennel, so I preferred him to be able to move.
Thanks to that and also the swimming, there was no muscle atrophy at all.

But I agree, if she tends to spin, this is very bad for the ligament.


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## Chris Jones II (Mar 20, 2011)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> If the CCL is ruptured, SOMETIMES the dog has a positive "sits test." And the knee affected points outward, not in for the sit test. When a dog is partially weight bearing, the stifle will SOMETIMES point in while walking, but not always.


Do you mean the knee is pointing away from the body or tucked into the ribcage area? Reason I ask is that I might be defining the term wrong b/c I have seen probably 10 dogs with full CCL ruptures in the past 2 years and all of them sat with the good leg straight and the affected knee tucked inward towards the body into the ribcage at an awkward angle that looks painful but seemed to take the pressure off the knee. When the knees were surgically repaired the leg sat straight again.


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