# Bad trainers



## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

I was just curious how y'all felt after spending a year or better fining that one special dog, maybe having to import him from over seas, just to see a club trainer mishandle him. Does it bother you at all when you think of the time you have put in. Does it bother you when he tells you it is something you did or are not doing. Does it bother you when you know the dog has everything and he doesn't know how to bring it out. I know mosy of you oput there have thought this. Do you ever say anything about it? While you are looking for that once in a lifetime dog, do any of you ever get on the net and listen to some of the advice given by trainers? Maybe you should. Many of them really let the cat out of the bag when they get to talking on forums because they don't know when to stop. O was just wondering how many have sat quietly when they knew the trainer was screwing up their dog. I means just kept quiet because they thought the trainer may know something they didn't even though the knew deep down what they were seeing wasn't right.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I have seen it. I have experienced it, and yes it sucks. Part of the game anymore. To be around those that care and can read a dog and listen to what you want out of the dog is really important.

Logistically, Mondio is a hard sport here. When I went to PA to Rick Rutt's place to work with him and Jimmy, it became very apparent what is missing here. Working with Jimmy was real good.

I now have a decoy that I feel will be a really good training decoy.

On the other hand, lets look at how many dogs a given trainer/decoy actually gets to work here, and then they have to work a lot of dogs that are not high level retired competition dogs.

It is the infamous catch 22.


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## andreas broqvist (Jun 2, 2009)

it realy do suck, often they think they know it al and they do not want to lern anything new ither.
but if i do meet a trainer likethat i will speak my mind and then ither i will never come back ore he "becaus its almost always a he" will not have mw back.

so i downt feel they had a shans of ruening a dog for me.

but i also want to point out the other way around. decoys traning other peopels dogs for free, trying to lern, putting alot of time in and then sombody with a dog that in his mind is the best dog ever gets ruind becaus the decoy do not know how to work dogs, are to green and so on.

a good dog is not that easyle ruind, and if its so easy to work other peopels dogs why arnt ther more doing that 

its always to sides to a story


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Don you bring out very strong points and reflections that should be reviewed. But spin it the other way; how about the handlers, who like parents, put far too much pressure and demands on the young thing (kid or pup) and then don't follow the normal program for success.

Take your breed of dog; if someone has never owned one and you give them all the words of advise to be successfull , and they screw it up...where does the fault lie? Breed? Breeder? Handler?


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Howard Gaines III said:


> Take your breed of dog; if someone has never owned one and you give them all the words of advise to be successfull , and they screw it up...where does the fault lie? Breed? Breeder? Handler?


If you only knew how many times I have herard, "I should have listened to you instead of my friends". Of course this is after they took the pup out with a dog that was gunshy and fired a gun. The owners themselves are usually their own worst enemy. They thing they know everything about the dog because it is theirs so they wing it on what they think they see.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

You said in a post that yours have been worked on hogs. Motorcycles? LOL
How are they used and what is the overall outcome. Very interested! :-k


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Howard Gaines III said:


> You said in a post that yours have been worked on hogs. Motorcycles? LOL
> How are they used and what is the overall outcome. Very interested! :-k


How are they used? For about everything but conformation. With hogs, they track, bay and catch. They are doing obedience, water retrieving, flushing and just about everything else. Largely, it is being able to pick the right personality that fits what the person wants to do with the dog.
The doctor in SD contacted me the other day to send Sinbad back to me. Why? Because he has two males from here. I told him that it would probabably be ok because I sent the 2nd one to him at about 10 mo old. His job was to be backup for the first dog because there are a lot of coyotes in his area. Well, then he decided to send the first to bird training in Ga for 7 mo. Now the second takes over the territory. He picked up the one on Ga finally and takes him home. Well he re-introduced them in the living room and they immediately cleared the room, and all people ran for cover. I told him this would be the outcome when he sent the first one off. The second dog was placed with rescue and he ordered a female which is going to the trainer in Ga also. He thinks the first dog walks on water and was set back a bit this morning when I told him the females was a better dog that the male for birds. The first male is good but he was picked to kill coyotes, not hunt birds and he is a bit aloof. The females is smarter, and much more in tuned to people. It is hard to control things when peoples objectives change.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Don.

I agree with you on bad trainers. I have seen it (and been the trainer on a few occasions) and have been fortunate enough to realize as a trainer (usually) when I am in over my head and look for help. I will, 9 out of ten times, if I have a problem, stop a session by backing the dog up a little to something it was successful at, and find someone to watch me work the dog or work the dog for me or think it out. While I am okay at reading dogs and okay at working them, i do a lot better in front of someone with attention to detail to pick up what I might not be seeing. 

I have been fortunate as a handler to have good trainers around me as well, and the ability to help some decoys get better as we go.

Kennel blindness to yourself or your dog can be a pretty huge blow to a person when they realize they are doing it. Mirrors and video tape are great things!!!


There are just some people I wouldn't work a dog on, or around, period!!!

Don, you made a remark that almost makes me believe that you don't think everyone that posts training advice should be doing it??? Lol. The truth of that matter is that a computer, internet and the desire to post here, make you qualified (in their opinion).


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Dave Colborn said:


> Don.
> 
> I agree with you on bad trainers. I have seen it (and been the trainer on a few occasions) and have been fortunate enough to realize as a trainer (usually) when I am in over my head and look for help. I will, 9 out of ten times, if I have a problem, stop a session by backing the dog up a little to something it was successful at, and find someone to watch me work the dog or work the dog for me or think it out. While I am okay at reading dogs and okay at working them, i do a lot better in front of someone with attention to detail to pick up what I might not be seeing.
> 
> ...


Dave, I can't tell you how many times I have had to rethink things and do a change up that may cost me a year or two in breeding on a certain cross I was sure would be great. Of course I had my proven crosses but, you still have to be objective. If it isn't getting the results you want, something is wrong wheterh it is training or breeding.
As far as me thinking many people have no businees giving advise, Your right. But, like everyone else, I have my own opinions even though I am not a trainer. I had an 8 mo old grab me by the hand last week because I was looking at a scab where another dog had bit him when playing. My traing method was short, sweet, and very effective. I whopped him along side the head before he even opened his mouth to let go. Grabbed him by the collar and kept an eye on him as I went back and poked againe. He turned with his lips curled back and he hit the floor. I picked him up and p[oke again...he wouldn't even tirn his head and look ....and never will again. What many don't realize is now that same dog is even closer to me than he was before. He knew what he was doing and was testing, he didn't like the results and he knows why he got whopped. He never held it against me but, if I whopped him for know reason, he would never trust me after that. I mention this because it makes me think of the advise I see when people say their dog growled at them a couple of weeks ago and they let it slide because they didn't know how to handle it. Then a week later the same dog growled and snapped this time. (One thing I learned long ago is that a snap is usually a test because I have never met a dog I can truly outmaneuver unless that is what he intended. If I was lucky and did out maneuver a dog when he was really serious, there are more successve bites until he gets you.) Again it was let go but they got on a message board for advise. Trainers talk dominance theory and tell the people, that are unsure of how to handle the dog, that he has to show him who is boss. What do you suppose is probably going to happen with a dog that has tested them twice, the second time showing more aggression than the first. The dog is going to show them who the boss is and probably hurt them. I see them suggesting doing an alpha roll and nonsense like that. I have to shake my head at times at very basic training advise, but, I keep quiet when it comes to technical training on how to get a dog to perform an unnatural task because I don't know myself. Anyway, we all have opinions and I am not short of them either.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Don Turnipseed said:


> ... The females is smarter, and much more in tuned to people...


You are talking dogs here, right!?! :twisted:
Oh the bashing that will come from this post~~~~~

Don the testing...here is where weak a$$ people get handed their life savings. The second the dog stays in control, it REMAINS in control. My Bouvier breed is one that can play the control hand. Thank God I have have VERY few issues with them and giving others my first hand experience might save a few hands of faces. The Bouvier wants to please, but like any good working dog, toughness is part of the life and living game. Lead, follow, or get bi#ched by your dog...Training advise #101.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

LMAO, Howard. That "females" should have been singular and I was referring to that one particular female as compared to this one particular male. I woul.d hope someone would just shoot me if I were to "EVER" make a blanket statement like, "Females are smarter". I have seen some very smart females and on the rarity of that fact alone, they stand out to me like a sore thumb. When I read you post out of context I was blown away that such a statement should ever cross my lips. And god I hope we are talking dogs here. LMAO still. I love the male dogs because I understand testosterone but I just can't handle the mood swings in the girls.....neither can my boys. The girls run around the yard shaking it at them and then try to eat them if they take advantage of it. Makes no sense at all. You see the same thing in those previously mentioned red neck bars.......which I am hesitant to ever bring up again except for this time. LOL Now, let's get back on topic.

Howard said,
"Thank God I have have VERY few issues with them and giving others my first hand experience might save a few hands of faces."

Good advise is ok, but do you tell them to grab a dog like a 90 lb rottie and tell them he has to show him who is boss by alpha rolling him after he has gotten by with being aggressive a couple of previous times? You know as well as I do, most people got no business trying some of this because they just are going to come out being the boss. I hyave found myself standing in front of a few strange dogs wondering if I will come out on top or should I pick another time and place. With my own dogs, I have no choice because as you said, once they win one, they will always try to be the boss.


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## Max Orsi (May 22, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> I was just curious how y'all felt after spending a year or better fining that one special dog, maybe having to import him from over seas, just to see a club trainer mishandle him. Does it bother you at all when you think of the time you have put in. Does it bother you when he tells you it is something you did or are not doing. Does it bother you when you know the dog has everything and he doesn't know how to bring it out. I know mosy of you oput there have thought this. Do you ever say anything about it? While you are looking for that once in a lifetime dog, do any of you ever get on the net and listen to some of the advice given by trainers? Maybe you should. Many of them really let the cat out of the bag when they get to talking on forums because they don't know when to stop. O was just wondering how many have sat quietly when they knew the trainer was screwing up their dog. I means just kept quiet because they thought the trainer may know something they didn't even though the knew deep down what they were seeing wasn't right.


There are also a couple of other issues here.

Sometimes people think they have much more than they actually have, in terms of quality or type of dogs, therefore they assume the dog is not getting the right work when in fact the dog is getting as much as it can handle.

If I had a penny for all the supposed exceptional dogs I worked though the years I will be much richer than now.

Also, everybody that start training in any of the protection sport, before they train for the sport, want a protection dog.

I have seen people with dominant strong dogs that barely know how to hold the leash when they are taking the dog to relieve himself.

With dogs like this you always have to be 2/3 steps ahead of what the dog is...

... how do you expect the trainer and the club to assume the liability of a clueless handler.

It is always easier to blame the decoy and the dog for failure than is to admit the own faults.

Training start from the moment you get the dog home, if you are unable to establish a good relationship with the dog, you can't expect the decoy to do miracles in the 0,0001% of time in the dog life he spends working with him.

Just something else to think about

Happy training.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Don Turnipseed;157934
Good advise is ok said:


> I 100% stand by the use of an alpha roll, IF AND ONLY IF, it is done correctly and with the right reason. To lose your temper and jack your dog isn't the proper use. More can be done in training with motivation and markers.
> 
> I'm now retired, but when working for the man, if my boss had been in my butt 24/7, 365 he would see a very different me! I do more and freely give more when power stroked just a little. As you know working with field dogs isn't much different. Good dogs want to please, they want to be rewarded for what makes the master happy. Verbal, physical, and material rewards get you more down the twisted road than beating the hell out out them.
> 
> ...


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Max you're preaching good...keep going!


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Howard Gaines III said:


> I 100% stand by the use of an alpha roll, IF AND ONLY IF, it is done correctly and with the right reason. To lose your temper and jack your dog isn't the proper use. More can be done in training with motivation and markers.
> 
> I'm now retired, but when working for the man, if my boss had been in my butt 24/7, 365 he would see a very different me! I do more and freely give more when power stroked just a little. As you know working with field dogs isn't much different. Good dogs want to please, they want to be rewarded for what makes the master happy. Verbal, physical, and material rewards get you more down the twisted road than beating the hell out out them.
> 
> ...


Howard, I am surprised you believe in alpha rolls and such, but that's cool. You disagree with the way I handle biting as much as I disaproved of getting down and acting like a dog to get a point across. In 5 seconds I can guarantee you that 8 mo old will never lay a tooth on me for the rest of his life....while your still throwing the alpha rolls on yours. I didn't hurt the dog, I hit him once each time and it was over that quick. You will find that many dogs are almost immediately closer to you after a quick concise correction like mine. I will even bet a lot of trainers here have noticed an immediate change in the dog. No where in the farthest reaches of that dog's mind does he now question who is the boss. It is gone and now he can relax.
Now, I would possibly listen to you tell me how to get a dog to go over a barricade and retrieve a dumbell because I wouldn't have a clue. I teach them basic manners and that is about it.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Don Turnipseed said:


> ...Now, I would possibly listen to you tell me how to get a dog to go over a barricade and retrieve a dumbell because I wouldn't have a clue. I teach them basic manners and that is about it.


 That's Schutzhund! Dumbells and all are something I no longer need to figure out.:lol:
A fast correction for behaviors NOT allowed is better than hours of begging your dog to comply. There have been VERY few dogs that I have owned and trained that needed rolled. I think if they understand and respect your position, most will just follow the program and do so to please. 

It's easy to beat stuff up to make it work, when I work and they don't then many times I stick them back in the kennel and the rest of the pack goes out for trips to the hedgerows and pond. That day of not having my attention seems to tighten their butts faster. 

Each dog is different and so what works for you and your critters should be used. I had a BC that would blow me off and work sheep HER way. Dropped in the kennel and made to watch while the others did herding seemed to get her attention. The reward of herding was a very strong motivator.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

> It's easy to beat stuff up to make it work,


Howard, I haven't seen one person say anything about beating a dog up to get it to work. They put their teeth on me in an unfriendly way, they get one hand quickly applied to the side of their head. Not exactly a beat down and it doen't hurt them anyway....but it does impress them with the fact that they have greatly displeased me. We do this a time or two more until they realize they don't like the immediate reponse they are getting and it is over forever. Not a lot different than you using a pinch or a choker, or alpha roll, just quicker and immediately effective and never needs repeating.. When I am working them on a leash, I do pretty much what you do if they are to wound up to pay attention.....I put them back in the yard and take a different dog out.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> .....I put them back in the yard and take a different dog out.


I occasionally did this with a dominant dog I had. It seemed to do the trick when he decided he wanted to act up with me. I didn't do anything other than quietly return him from where he came and left him there. When I went to retrieve him at a later point I'd find I had a strangely attentive and somewhat biddable dog on my hands.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Howard, I haven't seen one person say anything about beating a dog up to get it to work. They put their teeth on me in an unfriendly way, they get one hand quickly applied to the side of their head. Not exactly a beat down and it doen't hurt them anyway....but it does impress them with the fact that they have greatly displeased me. We do this a time or two more until they realize they don't like the immediate reponse they are getting and it is over forever. Not a lot different than you using a pinch or a choker, or alpha roll, just quicker and immediately effective and never needs repeating.. When I am working them on a leash, I do pretty much what you do if they are to wound up to pay attention.....I put them back in the yard and take a different dog out.


 NOT saying you're doing the beat down, now translation fixed. XXXOOO:mrgreen:


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