# 2.5 year old intact male GSD-behavior



## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Beau is going through what appears to be another phase. He is just 2.5 and trying to be a punk again. We went through this around 1.5

Is this normal or just possibly a lapse on my part? I have had intact males before but never a punk like Beau.

We have had more of a fight when I want to end the tug game with trying to pop it out with the pinch escalating it. Yesterday a police trainer showed me a better way saying "you don't need that dog to fight like we do ours, so out-think him"..It seems to be working...she just had me put him into a down to get the toy back.

Peed in my office with me sitting here. I tied a knot in his throat. He has no urinary issues with 'holding it' and had already been outside. I did put the lead around his neck and correct him with that (no prong) and nothing seems to phase him though he did look at me like, wtf? after that.

He is also deciding he does not want to go outside. Now nothing bad has happened out there. It is not fear and he is fine when he is out there. With the cold snap I have not left him out for too long either and we almost always play some ball when we go out but he wants to go tearing through the house, so I have taken to snagging him coming out of his crate, doing a little obedience and taking him out that way.

I will say some of this started after we are doing weekly training with the police [not near my house] and for the outside problems there is dog pee everywhere and he is strutting around with his tail up high and wanting to mark everything. Next week I am actually going to do the area search onlead as I won't tolerate marking while working.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

If he outs when he downs, but not well otherwise, that sounds like a lapse. The new cue of down prior to the out doesn't elicit that you are meaning to tug or fight with him and the old cue does. Sounds like he is untrained completely on his out. In my opinion, rarely is anything ever trained permanently, unless we (the humans) are completely trained and rote in how we get the behavior, or only use it once in a while. Behaviors that are asked for frequently tend to get sloppy, unless we are just as precise day after day. ready with reward, ready with correction.

For the out I would clean up the out in a down, or any other position that works, then start tugging and outing, with the goal of a huge rewarding fight, and then an out. Simple to complex in that. The police trainer is right, except they don't need the fight in the context of an out either. 


That lapse and him becoming more of an adult may have caused the marking. If you cure the marking off leash, please post how you addressed it. I have had limited success with working dogs that mark, especially dogs that have been doing it with another handler and I am trying to counter condition the behavior. My big concern in the context I was using them was that they never mark on car tires or buildings, which I was successful at, and that in an open area, or around bushes they are not peeing and missing odor. Maybe my caring more about cars and buildings is why I had limited success on the peeing in open areas...hmmmm. I prefer females in detection because I have had and seen way less marking females. 

Also sounds like less exercise in the cold maybe he has some pent up energy. That is me reading into it, not what I read as you do play ball in the cold.

I would research old threads of Lou Castle for the "out" and Don Turnipseed for the "marking/house training". Good luck with him, and in all seriousness, just out-persist him in whatever course of action you take.



Nancy Jocoy said:


> Beau is going through what appears to be another phase. He is just 2.5 and trying to be a punk again. We went through this around 1.5
> 
> Is this normal or just possibly a lapse on my part? I have had intact males before but never a punk like Beau.
> 
> ...


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

I think what she was trying to articulate with the out is they need to be able to get their dogs to out while in drive. I can pull him out of drive by putting him in a down to get an easier release...though I should work back towards getting him to out whenever I say so.


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## jamie lind (Feb 19, 2009)

Nancy Jocoy said:


> I think what she was trying to articulate with the out is they need to be able to get their dogs to out while in drive. I can pull him out of drive by putting him in a down to get an easier release...though I should work back towards getting him to out whenever I say so.


She's having you out the dog like you out a sleeve. What's that tell you about your "game" of tug?


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Not sure where you are going. He wants to fight.

I have had two other dogs with a tug reward and they were not as challenging as this one. I am "handicapped" in that I don't do schutzhund or IPO and have also not dealt with quite as pushy a dog before.


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## jamie lind (Feb 19, 2009)

Nancy Jocoy said:


> Not sure where you are going. He wants to fight.
> 
> I have had two other dogs with a tug reward and they were not as challenging as this one. I am "handicapped" in that I don't do schutzhund or IPO and have also not dealt with quite as pushy a dog before.


The trainer has seen the dog, and was able to find a solution. I would ask the trainer why she made the suggestion.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

What you heard her say and what she said may not be what's going on. if you have a trained dog that won't out, he is probably not outing because he has been taught not to out vs. being taught to release for a reward. IE fights harder when you say out. 

You change the context to a down, and the dog outs, not because he is out of drive, but because you have changed the criteria from fighting to outing. Start at this point by rewarding him with a huge fight after he downs and outs. then let him calm down some, put him in a down, and start again. He wants the fight I would guess, so why not use it to reward him for his outs?





Nancy Jocoy said:


> I think what she was trying to articulate with the out is they need to be able to get their dogs to out while in drive. I can pull him out of drive by putting him in a down to get an easier release...though I should work back towards getting him to out whenever I say so.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

True...I think for whatever reason if it works, it works. 

I had trained by making the tug "dead" by holding it against my body but that was not enough to get the out anymore. He *should* let go no matter what but she felt that if I could get it this way that is enough. I am in good hands there and will get help.

I was mainly just wondering if this is a maturity thing or just that with some dogs like him you have to really stay on top of the obedience control all their life and he will constantly be a bit of a challenge.


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

The PSD trainer and Dave are right IMO. I inherited a Mal that had out issues and fought the handler for any reward. I taught him to out in the down, then sitting, then standing, then at heel, then while actively tugging....then on the man. It took awhile but I happen to be in a dope school at the time so I had 40 hrs a week to work on it. Every dope training sniff we did I got to work on the out. After a couple weeks he would out fast and clean, even on a bite suit with the man dragging him down the field.

Your other issues? I would say maturity and the cold weather.


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## Holden Sawyer (Feb 22, 2011)

I am not a GSD person but my intact male became a real butt at that age. I really had no other way to describe it but that he was just being a butt or like you said a punk. Just something about how you wrote about your dog makes me think it is his age.


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

I feed my dogs outside. Even my indoor dog.

Rain or shine, freezing cold blizzard or stinking hot. That way they always want to go out to eat...even just to wait for me to bring out their food. I don't get any of that "I opened the door and it was raining and the dog decided...no" business.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

This whole outside thing is new. He may not like the fact that I swapped out gravel for mulch but he is going to have to get over that. 

But no, even the food did not entice him so I am just leashing him up and taking him out. Sorry, bud.


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## David Winners (Apr 4, 2012)

I would work on the out in as calm a manner as possible. Keep him from getting all fired up by keeping the tug sessions very short. Lots of outs with a mark and quick re-bite. As Dave suggested, use the down if you need to. 

I would go back to basics and re train the out, making sure that he knows the fight will be more fun if he outs. Try and enforce that it's about the game with you and not possession of the tug. At the end of a tug session, I have the dog out and then reward with a high value food reward so he gets something for outing.

I wouldn't use tug for an OB reward until you get his out squared away. I believe you use tug for a reward in SAR. If you don't think it will cause any loss in drive, I would reward with connecting that causes less conflict until you have him playing tug appropriately.

As far as being pushy, I think it's his maturity kicking in. Just be consistent and fair with NILIF. Make him earn everything. Challenge him with your brain and keep him working for you. Keep him guessing about what is going to happen next. You decide the activities and rules. 

JMHO

David Winners


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

As what I thought before when this came up, why tug at all if it puts him in the "fight the handler" frame of mind. How is this conducive to the working relationship? If the dog thinks he's tough enough to push his handler around, I wouldn't give him a vehicle for it. Agree with NILIF if he's feeling too big for his britches but sounds like he is going to be that type of dog with Nancy regardless of age. Work him for a ball or food reward--anything other than fighting with him. 

T


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> As what I thought before when this came up, why tug at all if it puts him in the "fight the handler" frame of mind. How is this conducive to the working relationship? T




proofing the out. Is the dog fighting the handler? or does it enjoy tugging? Either way, the out proofed is the goal.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Dave Colborn said:


> proofing the out. Is the dog fighting the handler? or does it enjoy tugging? Either way, the out proofed is the goal.


I think he enjoys pushing her around and I don't think she's comfortable with dealing with his type of dominance--hence the consulting. Given that she is not comfortable with it, reinforces certain aspects of his personality and may fuel his fight fire. If you are going to take him to fight la la land, you need to be comfortable and confident as a handler. Agree with the NILIF first for the attitude adjustment before even getting to fight drive outs.

T


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

I would agree with that assessment and think he is picking up on that. I will accept being the weak link here. Even with the "trade game" he picks up on subtle cues with my body language when it is the last turn and I am going to take the toy back.

I certainly don't have the experience with a dominant pushy dog and it is a long learning curve. I think even as a puppy I saw and noted the differences. Fortunately he has a nice temperament - and is very approachable no resource guarding or food aggression.

Not scared of him and I don't back down but I can see where I could push him to a place I don't want to be. Bradshaw's article which basically is NILIF is where I think I need to stay for awhile.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Take your opinion out of your advice. You think, you don't think. Then you turn it into a given that Nancy isn't comfortable based on what you think, not fact. She is being proactive, and I and others have given her general advice to deal with her dog's behavior as she wrote it. 

Have you had this happen recently with a dog, personally? you sound pretty emotionally invested.








Terrasita Cuffie said:


> I think he enjoys pushing her around and I don't think she's comfortable with dealing with his type of dominance--hence the consulting. Given that she is not comfortable with it, reinforces certain aspects of his personality and may fuel his fight fire. If you are going to take him to fight la la land, you need to be comfortable and confident as a handler. Agree with the NILIF first for the attitude adjustment before even getting to fight drive outs.
> 
> T


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Don't get ridiculous. No, this isn't personal as far as my personal handler/dog relationships. I've been following Nancy's posts about this dog since he was a puppy. I think Nancy understands where I'm coming from even if you don't. 

T


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Cool. I think she has a good plan reading and sticking with something Jerry suggests for sure. 



Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Don't get ridiculous. No, this isn't personal as far as my personal handler/dog relationships. I've been following Nancy's posts about this dog since he was a puppy. I think Nancy understands where I'm coming from even if you don't.
> 
> T


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

All valid. Main reason for posting was feeling really in good control of things then seeing a bit of a change and more pushiness in recent months.........

I gather part him, his age and development of more "adult" behaviors, and part me probably being more lax (as I recall I have been dealing with that pulled tendon in my ankle...and backed off some on serious training)


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Nancy Jocoy said:


> All valid. Main reason for posting was feeling really in good control of things then seeing a bit of a change and more pushiness in recent months.........
> 
> I gather part him, his age and development of more "adult" behaviors, and part me probably being more lax (as I recall I have been dealing with that pulled tendon in my ankle...and backed off some on serious training)


Nancy,what training did you recently start with the police trainers?

Just curious.

T


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Nothing new just brushing up on building, area, and vehicle searches for our upcoming NAPWDA recert - I missed testing in October due to that stupid tendon so we are out of commission until we test end of Feb. Good help with detail work, cleaning up any indication and obedience issues etc...Also planning on overlaying another cert test in about 6 months after this recert to cover any gaps. It can be hard to hit those annual recertification dates.

Buried and water we do on our own as it is something we actually have more expertise on.

They let us work on the wall and they have a warehouse and their drugs are our distracters and our cadaver is their distracters.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

i hear NILF mentioned frequently on this forum

imo, NILF should also apply to being on/off lead
....not referring to the outing, but to the other problem 

just saying...


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

rick smith said:


> i hear NILF mentioned frequently on this forum
> 
> imo, NILF should also apply to being on/off lead
> ....not referring to the outing, but to the other problem
> ...


Regarding the on/off lead, I think I know what you mean but not sure. I don't really do off lead until I'm in the dog's head so they drag a long line or its tethered to me. If I'm doing NILIF, doggie doesn't get loose privileges.

T


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

This may possibly be an ongoing thing with this dog and needs to be stayed on top of.
Even with a strong minded/strong willed/dominant dog or whatever anyone calls it I believe in the lock the tug up and wait for an out, then reward with another tug game. 
The problem with this is when the dog is to physically powerful for the handler to "lock up".
If the down is helping then I would stick with that then go to the sit, stand, etc. 
Back chaining with the dog in front of you could also be a big help. 
Start it with a lower value object so there isn't such a big fight for the out.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

regarding NILIF, Beau recently lost loose offlead privileges in the house after a few wild trips zooming through the house and to the bedroom to jump on the bed (he has never, nada, not once been allowed on the furniture) containing my husband at the time and attacking the pillows. It was not a pretty sight. Right now offlead in the house is restricted to my office with the door closed or with the other rooms closed off.


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## David Winners (Apr 4, 2012)

I've never done it, but on the ME tug video, he has a female handler that can't dead the tug sit in a chair and place the tug between her knees. It worked for her.

David Winners


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Nancy Jocoy said:


> regarding NILIF, Beau recently lost loose offlead privileges in the house after a few wild trips zooming through the house and to the bedroom to jump on the bed (he has never, nada, not once been allowed on the furniture) containing my husband at the time and attacking the pillows. It was not a pretty sight. Right now offlead in the house is restricted to my office with the door closed or with the other rooms closed off.


Actually that sounds pretty funny and I can see my bouv and a couple of my corgis doing that. Of course my cat is the worst culprit when it comes to the zoomies. Shanty is known to grab a toy and roll around on the couch with it. I've never been the anti-furniture type though. I would've just called him off while I was controlling the laugh. Don't forget to have fun with him.

T


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

I learned to laugh at his antics a while back else I would be crying. I could write a book. I don't usually loose my temper though I did when he stood right there and peed on the floor looking at me. 

Of course, other than this look like "do you have a problem with this" he seemed unfazed. Actually that is the big difference - nothing really shuts him down. I think that is a good thing.


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## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

Out means Out, for any type of dog. Problems at 2.5 years mean it was never clear to him. Difficult to say without seeing a vid but from the description I would focus on a verbal out, do not take tug away but release immediately for a bite (on tug) after he outs. This way he there is no tugging/rewarding his tug fight behavior, no hands on tug just yet. Just random position "Out" followed by "Ok"


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

rick smith said:


> i hear NILF mentioned frequently on this forum
> 
> imo, NILF should also apply to being on/off lead
> ....not referring to the outing, but to the other problem
> ...


 
I agree.

Nancy

I never put my dogs on the lead when in the house. I know some do but on the lead he cannot make mistakes and cannot be corrected so the dog has no idea what is allowed or not.

I have had some brutal awakenings - the younger GSD ripped up the duvet, scattering feathers all over the place. I was too late to punish him.

I broke my ankle and the dog checked it out immediately. I sat on a chair outside in the garden - threw the "Bringholz" and the dog ran, scooped it up and raced around the garden with it. "nuff said", I didn't repeat the exercise. He was reliable in this exercise but he darned well checked my disability.

Dogs are far less intelligent but far more observant.

At training we used to take the young dog away from the helper and out without much pressure but "out" it had to without "complaining".

I have no doubt you can make the dog realise you are now back in the "chair" and he is an underprivileged specimen again.


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