# SchH + SchH = FR?



## Ryan Venables

I have a bit of a question here. I've only recently become involved in SchH and FR. SchH is by far the easier sport for me to compete in, where as there are no FR clubs or even trainers/decoys within a 4 hour drive of me.
That being said, I personally enjoy FR more (no patience to track right now).

I'm in the midst of deciding which breeder to go to (I have it narrowed down to two) for my next Mal, which should be arriving in the spring.

When I was at one of the trials in the summer getting my BH on my female, a lady there who had a SchH III Malinois suggested that if I wanted to do FR with my next pup I should get the little guy from sire/dam who are FR and NOT SchH trained... and vice versa with FR parents to a SchH puppy.

Any truth to this? To me it sounds kinda far fetched, as I've seen dogs here trained in SchH and then switched to FR, or FR to SchH. I would think it is how the foundation work is implemented on the puppy that would determine where they would excel in and not the genes.

Thoughts?


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## Mike Scheiber

Yes 
Each sport has different requirements tracking being the biggest I'm sure a good dog could do ether dog ain't tested for tracking in FR


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## Tracey Hughes

My SchH titled Malinois, a SchH 3(National Competitor in Canada), a SchH 2 bitch and my other bitch who is just BH for now, are from mainly KNPV and Belgian/French Ring lines, no SchH titled dogs in their pedigrees at all and the 2 titles ones were both HIT dogs. My SchH 3 male was out of 2 untitled dogs and I haven’t seen a Malinois I have liked as much as him so far, he is a very solid all around good dog.

My current bitch was tested by Elmar Mannes of Germany who is a GSD breeder/judge and he said he had never seen a Malinois who could take his training style as well as she did and he really liked her
I have never owned a Malinois from SchH lines so I can’t really say what they are like but have found that the nerve is more important then the titles the parents have. I washed out one mainly French Ring line Malinois due to lack of nerve strength for what I am used to anyway but the drive was there.

I dabbled in Belgian Ring for awhile when one of our members was doing it and do suit work and some of the Ring exercises from time to time(love the object guard!), but I enjoy SchH much more, I have more opportunities to compete in that sport, and I am finally pretty good at tracking So for me it is Schutzhund for now..good luck with your new Malinois..


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## Mike Lauer

I could see a history of parentage in a particular sport would tell you that all of those people looked for traits in dogs that would excel at that sport.
example being a full calm grip for sch., or maybe tracking ability. I never worked grip a day in my life and my GSD has the most full calm grip you have ever seen, its just genetics. My Mal's grip...well, lets just say its not calm....at all....ever....

5 generations of sch maybe, but just parents i wouldn't see any advantage.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

The actual amount of scenting ability that a dog needs to do a 600 meter track is in any dog on the planet. Being able to teach it, well, that is a different matter. So, the breeding is irrelevant.


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## Geoff Empey

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> So, the breeding is irrelevant.


As to me the Malinois for the most part is a smaller gene pool, than say modern GSDs. 

I'm with Jeff all Malinois if you go far enough back goes back to the source which is Belgian Ring. You can pretty well trace modern Malinois to a 1/2 dozen studs and 2-3 old kennels. Interesting info at this link. http://www.hondenaus.com/malinois_origins.html

It's more about the training and environment in which a pup is raised, than X sire + Y dam = Z progeny. 

There is some generalizations what 'modern' breeders were/are trying to go for, you can stack things in your favour for sure in breeding but it doesn't always mean things go to plan.


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## Tracey Hughes

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> The actual amount of scenting ability that a dog needs to do a 600 meter track is in any dog on the planet. Being able to teach it, well, that is a different matter. So, the breeding is irrelevant.


I agree Jeff.


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## eric squires

The focus in schutzhund protection is good solid full grips, so schutzhund breeders are looking for this or at least should be if they are reputable, so if you want a schutzhund prospect, look for good grips on the sire and dam, with french ring, the emphasis is not on the grips, so breeders don't focus on genetically good grips as much as the schutzhund crowd does, also the smaller dogs tend to be in french ring due to long routines, pallisade and long jump, if you want a schutzhund prospect to be competitive look for schutzhund parents and believe me the tracking in schutzhund is crucial and much easier with a pup who has good focus for the track, yes all dogs can track a scent but schutzhund tracking is footstep tracking not air scenting tracking so if you get a dog that naturally wants to air scent like for police work, it will be a struggle to score well on a schutzhund track from my experience at least


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## Shade Whitesel

Well if you want to get good scores on your Schutzhund 3 track, it's much easier to do it with a dog that has been selected for some calm scenting ability. Dogs selected for French ring have usually not been selected for that particular ability, "to think with their nose." 
If you want to do french ring, get a french ring bred dog, if you want to do Sch, get a Sch bred one. It's not that one can't do the other, it's that the selections for the sports are so different. 
I see a huge difference in the scenting ability of the different lines of malinois.


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## Jerry Cudahy

Ryan Venables said:


> I have a bit of a question here. I've only recently become involved in SchH and FR. SchH is by far the easier sport for me to compete in, where as there are no FR clubs or even trainers/decoys within a 4 hour drive of me.
> That being said, I personally enjoy FR more (no patience to track right now).
> 
> I'm in the midst of deciding which breeder to go to (I have it narrowed down to two) for my next Mal, which should be arriving in the spring.
> 
> When I was at one of the trials in the summer getting my BH on my female, a lady there who had a SchH III Malinois suggested that if I wanted to do FR with my next pup I should get the little guy from sire/dam who are FR and NOT SchH trained... and vice versa with FR parents to a SchH puppy.
> 
> Any truth to this? To me it sounds kinda far fetched, as I've seen dogs here trained in SchH and then switched to FR, or FR to SchH. I would think it is how the foundation work is implemented on the puppy that would determine where they would excel in and not the genes.
> 
> Thoughts?


Ryan they all start on a rag.

Yes genetics can be stacked towards a sport but really when the quality exists. The team training can perform all genres.

Kolos des Deux Pottois Ring II, Sch III, Campagne 500, Pistage was a G'Biber Son.

Not bad for a dog bred on NVBK Genetics.

The only reason Kolos never attained a Ring III was the the dog had a bad basket so the owner rather than a low ring III score stayed at Ring II.

How about Espoir du Hulevent Ring III, Campagne 500, Sch III, V Rated. Outstanding GSD whom I worked as a training decoy for a year.

The best of the best though are the Malinois from Loup Mutin in France.

Not only were these dogs able to do every sport available. They also won championships and or were Finalists in all these various sports.

Cheyenne and Haggler were only a couple of the many who established ability

You want to see a good dog who can cross many different sport styes.

Come and visit my Baron des Loup Mutin.

Here is something to keep in mind.

Kennels such as Loup Mutin. They cost less than North American Dogs. 

Don't cry about shipping. It is a fair price to obtain quality.

Keep an open mind about who has produced these type of dogs mentioned above.

jc


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## Thomas Barriano

I don't think it makes that much difference what sport the parents compete
or title in. 
Working + Working = working
Schutzhund, NVPK Mondio or French Ring. It doesn't make that much difference


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## Geoff Empey

Jerry Cudahy said:


> Ryan they all start on a rag.
> 
> Yes genetics can be stacked towards a sport but really when the quality exists. The team training can perform all genres.


Very true .. though as some people have pointed out some breeders are stacking the odds for a SchH nose for one example. But just because one or 2 of the parents is a Ring dog doesn't mean it can't track .. it just never has been shown how. 



Jerry Cudahy said:


> Cheyenne and Haggler were only a couple of the many who established ability


When you look at Cheyenne his genetics go back into NVBK lines as well. That's the source! People can say all they want about German line Mals, French line this, Dutch that. In reality it all started in the city of Malines by a bunch of bored farmers.


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## Jerry Cudahy

Geoff Empey said:


> Very true .. though as some people have pointed out some breeders are stacking the odds for a SchH nose for one example. But just because one or 2 of the parents is a Ring dog doesn't mean it can't track .. it just never has been shown how.
> 
> 
> 
> When you look at Cheyenne his genetics go back into NVBK lines as well. That's the source! People can say all they want about German line Mals, French line this, Dutch that. In reality it all started in the city of Malines by a bunch of bored farmers.


Geoff you have beeen studying again.

One thing your wrong on.

Those "Farmers" were never bored. LOL


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## Kadi Thingvall

There are many examples in the Malinois world of dogs from FR, BR, etc lines doing well in Sch. Most of the "Sch lines" are based on Ring lines. 

These dogs were all littermates, from Elgos x a 2P female. 1 litter, with dogs competing at the top in FR, MR, IPO and Campagne.

Rytmo 2P "Raptor" - FRIII, 1996 NARA FRIII Champion

Rachid 2P - MRIII, Campagne 3, FRIII
Chien en blanc finale Campagne 1999
Finaliste Mondioring 2000

Roma 2P "Puma" - MR III
MR Championships - 1997 - 3rd place 
MR Championships - 1999 - 4th place
MR Championships - 2000 - 2nd place 

Rim 2P - IPO III
Belgian Championship all breeds 1998
Belgian Championship all breeds 1999
CACIT te Grace-Hollogne op 30/01/2000
Speciale CAC in KV Ter Leie op 20/02/2000
Belgische Herders TUSSENSTAND selectie WK-FCI 2001 peildatum 22-1-2001 

Reine 2P - FRII 

If you look at the pedigrees of Turcodos or Stoned vd Duvetorre, both very well know Sch/IPO dogs they are out of Ring dogs. Well Turcodos is out of Stoned but Stoned and Turcodos mother Pigrine are both Ring lines. Another current name in the Sch/IPO world, Master de Alphaville Bohemia, again out of Ring lines. And the list will go on.


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## Jerry Cudahy

Thomas Barriano said:


> Working + Working = working
> Schutzhund, NVPK Mondio or French Ring. It doesn't make that much difference


No Shit Huh Thomas


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## Geoff Empey

Jerry Cudahy said:


> Geoff you have beeen studying again.
> 
> One thing your wrong on.
> 
> Those "Farmers" were never bored. LOL


Yeah they invented Ringsport!


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## Derek Milliken

Not that I've seen it in a Mal, but my only concern in Sch + Sch=FR would be the agility.
My current mal would likely touch on the top of the Sch A-frame, but just a touch. He comes from Joefarm lines crossed into KNPV lines. And he can track (not that I train it like I should).
But I've seen a lot of Sch + Sch= dogs that have trouble with the A-frame/jumps. And if they can't do the A-frame, they're gonna have a lot more trouble on the wall.
Again, haven't seen it in a Mal, but just something to think about.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Oh the little retards are rearing up their tiny little heads ! ! You are gonna get it now, get ready !

Quote: The focus in schutzhund protection is good solid full grips, so schutzhund breeders are looking for this or at least should be if they are reputable, so if you want a schutzhund prospect, look for good grips on the sire and dam, with french ring, the emphasis is not on the grips, so breeders don't focus on genetically good grips as much as the schutzhund crowd does,

Are you stupid ? Do you know anything at all about ringsport ? We all want the big biting dog, so we all look for the pup that fills his stupid little mouth and always wants to bite the bigger toy. 

Define grip. I didn't know that dogs had thumbs.

Lets see what the next knot head had to say.

Quote: Well if you want to get good scores on your Schutzhund 3 track, it's much easier to do it with a dog that has been selected for some calm scenting ability. Dogs selected for French ring have usually not been selected for that particular ability, "to think with their nose." 

AWESOMELY GODDAMN STUPID ! Thanks for playing along though !

Who taught you this stupid shit ? You think anyone "selects" a dog for tracking ? AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

All those Mals that kick the sheeeeiit out of the "selected" dogs for their "particular ability" to "think with their nose" come from ring dogs. They haven't been selected for shit to do with tracking. AAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA 

Quote: I see a huge difference in the scenting ability of the different lines of malinois.

THe **** you do. You are killing me with these wives tales. The two of you need to go back to puppy class and quit listening to whoever is teaching you this stupid stuff. 

Good God, how did I miss you two ?


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## Ryan Venables

Jerry Cudahy said:


> Ryan they all start on a rag.
> 
> Yes genetics can be stacked towards a sport but really when the quality exists. The team training can perform all genres.
> 
> Kolos des Deux Pottois Ring II, Sch III, Campagne 500, Pistage was a G'Biber Son.
> 
> Not bad for a dog bred on NVBK Genetics.
> 
> The only reason Kolos never attained a Ring III was the the dog had a bad basket so the owner rather than a low ring III score stayed at Ring II.
> 
> How about Espoir du Hulevent Ring III, Campagne 500, Sch III, V Rated. Outstanding GSD whom I worked as a training decoy for a year.
> 
> The best of the best though are the Malinois from Loup Mutin in France.
> 
> Not only were these dogs able to do every sport available. They also won championships and or were Finalists in all these various sports.
> 
> Cheyenne and Haggler were only a couple of the many who established ability
> 
> You want to see a good dog who can cross many different sport styes.
> 
> Come and visit my Baron des Loup Mutin.
> 
> Here is something to keep in mind.
> 
> Kennels such as Loup Mutin. They cost less than North American Dogs.
> 
> Don't cry about shipping. It is a fair price to obtain quality.
> 
> Keep an open mind about who has produced these type of dogs mentioned above.
> 
> jc


I have a pretty open mind. Lets just say that my current dog is great, I love her and for my first Mal, she's great; but the breeder is a disaster, so I won't be going back there.

I have a few kennels in mind, I've actually picked one, I'm just waiting for everything to happen.


Thanks for the input all... I don't plan on taking a dog to the world or anything. I just want to have fun w/ a dog who will also have a good time in what we're doing.

I personally don't like tracking, but that's just me and my lack of time... law school is a real drain to my EC's. But I'm kinda stuck w/ SchH as there are no ring alternatives around me... but we shall see what unfolds.


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## Shade Whitesel

Hi Jeff,
Don't know you and dont want to pick a fight with you but OMG! Everyone is entitled to their own experiences and own opinions without getting ridiculed!
What makes you the expert?
What's your best score on a National level Sch 3 track? What about an FH? Until you have done it (recently!) and pardon me if you have, why are you bashing other's observations? Sch is a 3 phase sport. If you can't pass tracking, you don't even get to the higher levels so hopefully those dogs don't get bred as much. Yes, that might qualify as selecting for tracking.
In my tiny little world up here in the Pacific Northwest and Canada, I see a difference in the mals bred for ring sport and the ones bred for Sch. Wouldn't you agree that the sports select for different traits in dogs? I am not saying there are not lots of exceptions, I am just noticing that up here, there seem to be differences. If my Sch mal is 95 pounds and can barely get over the hurdle, how's he going to do that palisade with enough training to get to ring 3? If my small little 45 pound female french mali stresses out and gets frantic doing a puppy track with food in every footstep, training her to do a hard Sch 3 track is going to be harder than the dog that methodically sniffs calmly and tracks deep nose every time.. 
And by the way... my totally Schutzhund line gsd is kicking some mali ass in Sch and ring!


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: If my small little 45 pound female french mali stresses out and gets frantic doing a puppy track with food in every footstep, training her to do a hard Sch 3 track is going to be harder than the dog that methodically sniffs calmly and tracks deep nose every time.. 

I would call the dog a shitter and wash it. That is not what I was talking about, I would hope that you would have the sense not to bother with shitters.

If you have a 95 pound dog that cannot jump a meter hurdle, I would again, probably classify that dog as a shitter, and wash it. My GSD at 6 months was hurdling the 4 foot retaining wall in front of the apartment, my female was doing it at 3 1/2 months. 

Bad breeding is not generally taken into account when talking generalizations. I apologize for not making it clearer.


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## Shade Whitesel

Yeah, but what if the 95 pound mali is great in all 3 phases in Schutzhund and can take me to Nationals?
And the female french mali is doing great in ring sport so I don't care if she can't track? They aren't shitters for their respective sports that they were bred for at all. In fact, they might be really good and then get bred alot themselves, and then go on further making different lines of the same breed.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Ok. =D>=D>=D>=D>


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## Bob Scott

Shade Whitesel said:


> Yeah, but what if the 95 pound mali is great in all 3 phases in Schutzhund and can take me to Nationals?
> And the female french mali is doing great in ring sport so I don't care if she can't track? They aren't shitters for their respective sports that they were bred for at all. In fact, they might be really good and then get bred alot themselves, and then go on further making different lines of the same breed.



Pretty much "one" of the reasons we have so many different breeds! ;-)


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## Jesus Alvarez

Shade Whitesel said:


> Hi Jeff,
> Don't know you and dont want to pick a fight with you but OMG! Everyone is entitled to their own experiences and own opinions without getting ridiculed!
> What makes you the expert?


You didn't get the memo? Jeff's who the f&^@ he thinks he is!


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## Danny Craig

Here's my two cents (and first post on this board).

If you want to compete in Schutzhund then you should get a Malinois that has at least some Schutzhund genetics behind it. The more the better. Sure, I'd agree that just about any dog can be taught to track. But if you really want to compete at high levels and be able to travel then you're going to need a dog that has talent (not just good training). And talent comes via the dog's genes. Good training plus genetic talent will allow you to score high while other dogs are failing. Yes it's true that having pure Schutzhund genetics behind your dog will not guarantee your dog can track. But the point of the science of breeding genetics is to improve ones chances of getting a certain type of dog. 

For the overall health of the dog (primarily jumping), we need to keep adding Ring sport genetics into our Schutzhund lines. But one dismisses the importance of tracking genetics at their own peril. I wonder if anyone that says otherwise has actually competed (with any success) at high levels. There may be an outlier or two (I can think of none at the moment) but if one checks out the backgrounds of the dogs that are tracking well at big events, they will see that these dogs come from primarily Schutzhund genetics - at least for a couple of generations.

Are there any Malinois out there that come out of pure Ring lines that are regularly tracking V at National events?

So, bottom line, if you want to play in FR, get a dog out of FR lines. If you want to play in SchH, then get a dog out of SchH lines.

dc


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## Jeff Oehlsen

But Sch is gay. I equate using a Mal in Sch to the people that had to use a border collie in akc ob.

There are plenty of pups that come from FR that love to use their nose, people are just out looking at what a pup is doing with a rag.

It is the pathetic selection process that dooms people.

AND as a little side note, the German Mal club had a meeting to discuss how their little Sch project with Mals was turning the dogs into GSD. You are not going to get this fantastic Sch mal if your a clueless **** as to what a dog is. 

I was hoping to have seen that answer in this thread, but didn't.

Jesus should have come up with that answer, but of course, he is clueless and angry that all the kids in school called him tardo. I am pretty sure his uncle called him sweetheart as well. HA HA


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## Danny Craig

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> There are plenty of pups that come from FR that love to use their nose,
> 
> It is the pathetic selection process that dooms people.
> 
> AND as a little side note, the German Mal club had a meeting to discuss how their little Sch project with Mals was turning the dogs into GSD. You are not going to get this fantastic Sch mal if your a clueless **** as to what a dog is.
> 
> I was hoping to have seen that answer in this thread, but didn't.
> 
> Jesus should have come up with that answer, but of course, he is clueless and angry that all the kids in school called him tardo. I am pretty sure his uncle called him sweetheart as well. HA HA


Do you have any background in SchH tracking?


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Yes. That is why I said it was selection, not a few generations of sport.


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## Shawn Reed

I am getting a Malinois puppy in March that I will be doing Mondio Ring with. My future Puppy's grandfather has FR3, MR3 and a SCH3. My breeder also is big on cross training.


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## Shawn Reed

So I guess my question is(not to hijack the thread), but if you're looking at a breeder who's dogs primarily only do FR they won't excel at Sch?


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## Danny Craig

Shawn Reed said:


> So I guess my question is(not to hijack the thread), but if you're looking at a breeder who's dogs primarily only do FR they won't excel at Sch?


Doesn't seem like hijacking to me. I thought that was the initial question of this thread.

Do you know of a breeder that is using primarily FR genetics whose dogs are excelling in SchH? Look in Europe. Or here. Go through the results at the AWDF or AWMA National events. How many of those dogs come from pure FR lines?

If you believe that like produces like (i.e., the science of genetics), then it makes sense to get a puppy from lines that have succeeded in your chosen sport.

Getting a puppy is a crap shoot. By doing your homework on the genetic background of the puppy you're trying to maximize your chances of getting a puppy that can excel in your chosen sport. If a big, full grip is rewarded in your sport, then you should look at litters whose parents (and grandparents, etc.) excel in sports that select for that. If jumping ability is rewarded in your sport, then you should look at litters whose parents (and grandparents, etc.) excel in sports that select for that. If speed is rewarded in your sport, then you should look at litters whose parents (and grandparents, etc.) excel in sports that select for that. And so on and so forth.

Honestly, if I were looking for a puppy to play in SchH, there are, in particular, two characteristics that I would make sure are in the puppy's background: 1st - does the puppy have close relatives/ancestors that have demonstrated the ability to track. 2nd - does the puppy have close relatives/ancestors that have demonstrated the ability to fight with a big, calm grip. All the other desirable traits we want in a working dog (like courage, drive, nerves, health, etc.) seem to me to be spread across the sports spectrum. If I were considering a puppy from pure FR or KNPV lines, my concern would be tracking ability and full, calm grips. From pure BR lines and possibly MR lines, my concern would be tracking ability only since those sports do reward big grips. If you want to do Agility, then who cares what the gripping or tracking behaviors are in the lines? All you want is a drivey, healthy dog from lines with high biddability. Considering a puppy from pure Schutzhund lines my biggest concern would be endurance and jumping ability.

This is not to say that a puppy from pure FR lines cannot excel in Schutzhund. It can. But the point of researching the genetic background of a perspective pup is that you are trying to maximize the chances that you will get a pup that has the necessary talent to excel in all three phases of the sport. There's no guarantee but it's the best we can do.

Bottom line is this: Do not underestimate the inherent talent required for a dog to be an excellent IPO-style tracker. It's about much more than nose work. Being an excellent IPO-style tracker is an inherent disposition in the dog. The genetics of your dog will determine how far, with proper training, you can go. This quality is just as important in Schutzhund as any other quality that, combined with excellent training, is required if you aspire to the podium in big events.


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## Shade Whitesel

Hey Jeff, Should we take this to the non conflict zone so we can edit out comments like "Schutzhund is gay"?
Little sick of hearing this statement, especially from people who haven't competed at the National level in Schutzhund.


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## Christopher Smith

Danny Craig said:


> How many of those dogs come from pure FR lines?


About the same number that come from pure schutzhund lines. 

Welcome to the board.:razz:


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## Christopher Smith

Shade Whitesel said:


> Little sick of hearing this statement, especially from people who haven't competed at the National level in Schutzhund.


Or any level. Remember that many of the the people that say, "I did schutzhund" have never titled a dog. :roll:


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## Danny Craig

Christopher Smith said:


> About the same number that come from pure schutzhund lines.
> 
> Welcome to the board.:razz:


Thanks Chris.[-o<

Really? Are you sure. I guess we have to define 'pure SchH lines'. If parents are titled, they were titled in SchH. If grandparents were titled, they were titled in SchH. Going through the last few FMBB World Ch.s, it is overwhelming. In fact, I can't find any from pure (using the same definition as above) FR, MR, KNPV or BR lines. 

Looking at the AWDF results, do you see any dogs that are from pure FR, MR, KNPV or BR lines? (I don't.) If so, how many?


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## Kadi Thingvall

Looking at the 2010 AWDF team, I wouldn't say any of those dogs were "pure Sch lines" I'm not even sure if such a thing exists, since the "Sch lines" tend to go back to Ring (FR and BR) lines within a few generations. There may be a few Sch dogs out there that are more than 2-3 generations of only Sch titles, but most that I look at are back into the Ring lines, FR, BR or both within a couple generations.

From the 2010 AWDF team.

First dog is Master, his parents are
.....Stoned van de Duvetorre (Elgos x Pita) - well known Sch dog, but out of "pure" Ring lines.
Yagus van de Duvetorre - Schutzhund dog
.....Mira de la Ferronnerie du Huyberland - Boscaille, Virginie, Noallaire, 2P

The description for his mother Targa on the Working dog eu site is "Very self-confident female ,100% pure French ring blood line"
.....Praxus de la Pièce de l'Assaut 
Targa des Loups de Genain 
.....Pamela des Contes d'Hoffmann 


Next Vion la Maschera di Ferro 
Father - multiple generations of Sch dogs, but all based on Lowenfels/2P dogs
Mother's parents are based on Ring lines


And finally Canaille du Ciel Rouge who's parents are
Kain Ot Vitosha - MR2 x Xtra Twist du Ciel Rouge (I believe she has a Brevet)
Kain is out of Sch titled parents, who are from Ring lines.
Twist is out of Gator and Jessy, Ring titled parents, from Ring lines.

I haven't gone through the FMBB names, but in the past when I've looked at those results it was similar, a few generations of Sch dogs that go back to Ring dogs, or a combination of Sch and Ring dogs up front.


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## Christopher Smith

Let's use the same criteria as the FCI uses for a "purebred" dog,; three generations. Do you think that's fair?

Let's look at the top dogs at the last AWMA national for instance:

Vion- ring titles in the maternal side

Master- His father is the only Schutzhund titled dog in his pedigree.

Bronsons Fekkai Rouge- ring dogs second and third generation 

L'Simba- one schutzhund dog in pedigree

Spit Fire Frith- I don't remember the pedigree but I talked to the owner when I was at the national and he said the dog was all NVBK

Mind you Danny I'm not disagreeing with your conclusion. I'm disagreeing on the way you came to your conclusion. And I don't think you are taking into account or voiced some important factors.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: Hey Jeff, Should we take this to the non conflict zone so we can edit out comments like "Schutzhund is gay"?
Little sick of hearing this statement, especially from people who haven't competed at the National level in Schutzhund.

yes, live in your own little world, or should I say cubicle. That way you can decorate it anyway you want, and no one can have any say but you.

The dog bites, but the little gaywads call it a "grip". Hilarious.

Tell us about your "power" in heeling.

tell me again where I have or haven't competed.


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## Danny Craig

Kadi Thingvall said:


> Looking at the 2010 AWDF team, I wouldn't say any of those dogs were "pure Sch lines" I'm not even sure if such a thing exists, since the "Sch lines" tend to go back to Ring (FR and BR) lines within a few generations. There may be a few Sch dogs out there that are more than 2-3 generations of only Sch titles, but most that I look at are back into the Ring lines, FR, BR or both within a couple generations.
> 
> From the 2010 AWDF team.
> 
> First dog is Master, his parents are
> .....Stoned van de Duvetorre (Elgos x Pita) - well known Sch dog, but out of "pure" Ring lines.
> Yagus van de Duvetorre - Schutzhund dog
> .....Mira de la Ferronnerie du Huyberland - Boscaille, Virginie, Noallaire, 2P
> 
> The description for his mother Targa on the Working dog eu site is "Very self-confident female ,100% pure French ring blood line"
> .....Praxus de la Pièce de l'Assaut
> Targa des Loups de Genain
> .....Pamela des Contes d'Hoffmann
> 
> 
> Next Vion la Maschera di Ferro
> Father - multiple generations of Sch dogs, but all based on Lowenfels/2P dogs
> Mother's parents are based on Ring lines
> 
> 
> And finally Canaille du Ciel Rouge who's parents are
> Kain Ot Vitosha - MR2 x Xtra Twist du Ciel Rouge (I believe she has a Brevet)
> Kain is out of Sch titled parents, who are from Ring lines.
> Twist is out of Gator and Jessy, Ring titled parents, from Ring lines.
> 
> I haven't gone through the FMBB names, but in the past when I've looked at those results it was similar, a few generations of Sch dogs that go back to Ring dogs, or a combination of Sch and Ring dogs up front.


Hi Kadi,

Hope you're staying dry.

I think we all agree that all the dogs go back to Ring in one form or another. But as a breeder I'm sure you know that if you want something in your pups, you breed for it. 

You've cited a few dogs. All of which have one or more parents and grandparents that have demonstrated that they can track. Master and Vion both have excellent tracking genetics on their sire's side. (We know that because we have evidence. They may even have excellent tracking genetics via their dam's side, but we don't know that because we don't have any evidence since the Ring sports don't do anything like SchH tracking and most of the females aren't worked.) Even Vion's mom earned her IPO1, so we can assume she could track at least a little.

Is it your opinion that the Mals excelling in the tracking phase of Schutzhund at National and World level competitions are a result of their genetic Ring inheritance? Or is it more likely due to their genetic SchH inheritance? (Rhetorical question.)

With each generation, the influence of Ring Sports in high achieving Schutzhund Malinois grows less and less. The reason for that is simple. If you want a puppy to do Schutzhund, get it from parents and grandparents that have excelled in Schutzhund - the more the better. If you want a puppy to do FR, get it from parents that excelled in Ring Sports - the more the better. And even then, you never know with a puppy. They are little question marks.

At least that's what makes sense to me.

I hope everyone agrees that the SchH tracking phase is where most Malinois struggle. I wish I had a nickel for every Mal with flashy obedience and great protection work and was only average in the tracking phase. I'd be a rich man. (I should state too that just because a dog earns a 100 point track does not automatically mean it is an excellent tracking dog. I've had a few of those. Good trackers but not the truly gifted. The best tracker I ever had never did earn a 100 points on a track but he worked his way through some of the toughest National event tracking I've ever seen. He just had a knack for. And sticktoittiveness)

That's all for me on this topic. Wishing you all success in your respective sports/endeavors and with your pups. And Happy Holidays.

Peace.


----------



## Danny Craig

Christopher Smith said:


> Let's use the same criteria as the FCI uses for a "purebred" dog,; three generations. Do you think that's fair?
> 
> Let's look at the top dogs at the last AWMA national for instance:
> 
> Vion- ring titles in the maternal side
> 
> Master- His father is the only Schutzhund titled dog in his pedigree.
> 
> Bronsons Fekkai Rouge- ring dogs second and third generation
> 
> L'Simba- one schutzhund dog in pedigree
> 
> Spit Fire Frith- I don't remember the pedigree but I talked to the owner when I was at the national and he said the dog was all NVBK
> 
> Mind you Danny I'm not disagreeing with your conclusion. I'm disagreeing on the way you came to your conclusion. And I don't think you are taking into account or voiced some important factors.


I have a quibble with the dogs you've cited.

Master's sire and grandsire were excellent tracking dogs.

Bronson's Fekkai Rouge is an excellent tracking dog and that is to be expected when one looks at her pedigree: Doc, Igor, Lupus, Snake, Robby - all world class tracking dogs and producers of world class tracking dogs.

Vion - super tracking on sire's side.

Simba - Great dog. If you ranked his three phases, how would you rank them? (Rhetorical question.)

Don't know the last dog.

My point is simple (don't know what other factors I am not including.) If one wants a brown dog, they should look for brown dogs out of brown dogs which, themselves, were out of brown dogs. Sure something else will pop up once in a while but your odds of getting a brown dog out of brown dogs are much better than getting a white dog out of those same brown dogs.

Therefore, if you want to play in Schutzhund get dogs out of dogs that have excelled in Schutzhund. If you want a Pekingese get it out of Pekingese parents.

Of course if the Schutzhund parents are only average, then it may make sense to get a pup from excellent Ring parents. All things being equal though, apples to apples, get your pup from lines that have demonstrated they can do your sport.

Peace out Homey.:smile:


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## Kadi Thingvall

Danny Craig said:


> Hope you're staying dry.


LOL Kind of. But getting real tired of having to towel down the dogs every time they go outside for a quick bathroom break. One of these days I REALLY have to get a French drain put into my back yard. 



Danny Craig said:


> Is it your opinion that the Mals excelling in the tracking phase of Schutzhund at National and World level competitions are a result of their genetic Ring inheritance? Or is it more likely due to their genetic SchH inheritance? (Rhetorical question.)


I know it's rhetorical, but I'm going to answer anyway 

It's due to their Ring genetics, with a selection emphasis on Sch. 

A couple generations of Sch titles in a pedigree isn't showing an alteration in the genetics as much as a change in selection focus. Good Sch trackers aren't a spontaneous mutation in the breed, they exist in the Ring dogs, or you wouldn't find them in the Schutzhund dogs. Just like you can find good herding dogs in pedigrees that are strictly protection sport titled. 

The only thing a Ring title tells me in regards to tracking is that unless the breeder/owner has tested the dog outside of their sport of choice, we don't know if it's a good Sch style tracker or not. It could be the best footstep tracker in the breed, and produce offspring that are exceptional Sch tracking dogs, or it might not be able to smell it's way out of a paper bag. Just like a pedigree full of Sch dogs doesn't tell me the dog will have the qualities I need to be a good Ring dog. But it doesn't say it won't either. 

As far as "Malinois are bad trackers". Well, maybe (I didn't say I agreed LOL) if you are holding them to a GSD standard. Isn't Schutzhund (IPO) changing the rules right now though to say GSD don't have to, and actually shouldn't, "heel like a Malinois". Or at least what some people seem to think is typical Malinois heeling (head straight up, looking at the stars). And last time I paid attention to the Sch rules, dogs that tracked faster than a snails pace (yes I'm exaggerating just a little) weren't supposed to be penalized, as long as they were consistent in their speed. But most Malinois seem to be judged in tracking by a GSD standard, especially at the all breed events. And yet they still manage to do well on the all breed international stage. Even if they are just a generation or two removed from Ring titled ancestors 

I do think eventually we will see "pure Schutzhund Malinois". As long as they don't look and act like little brown GSDs with less angulation, I guess that's not a problem. But when they start loosing those traits that make them Malinois, and just become little GSD's, I'd have to suggest the owners just go get GSD, and the breeders put some Ring dogs back into their pedigrees


----------



## Kadi Thingvall

Danny Craig said:


> Master's sire and grandsire were excellent tracking dogs.


I think that's the point though. Master's grandsire Stoned was an excellent tracking dog. Out of "pure" Ring lines. No Schutzhund dogs in the pedigree to give him his tracking abilities. Master's sire Yagus, also an excellent tracking dog, was out of Stoned (a Ring line dog) and Mira, a Ring line dog. Maybe Yagus got his tracking abilities from his father, but who did his father get them from?

Which goes back to the comment that some of the very successful Sch dogs were, and still are, from Ring dogs. Therefore, it must be possible to get good Sch tracking dogs from Ring dogs. Because it's been done.


----------



## Christopher Smith

Kadi Thingvall said:


> I think that's the point though. Master's grandsire Stoned was an excellent tracking dog. Out of "pure" Ring lines. No Schutzhund dogs in the pedigree to give him his tracking abilities. Master's sire Yagus, also an excellent tracking dog, was out of Stoned (a Ring line dog) and Mira, a Ring line dog. Maybe Yagus got his tracking abilities from his father, but who did his father get them from?
> 
> Which goes back to the comment that some of the very successful Sch dogs were, and still are, from Ring dogs. Therefore, it must be possible to get good Sch tracking dogs from Ring dogs. Because it's been done.


 I think that Kadi and I are kind of heading in the same direction on this one. 

Here's what I think. The tracking phase in IPO is not a strong test of the dog scenting ability. Almost any dog can sniff out a schutzhund track. How many times have you seen a feral dog follow your track at your spot by the border? I think that it's more of a test of the dogs nerves and ability to concentrate. I believe that BR, and to a lesser extent Mondio, also select for these same traits. 

I think the reason we don't see more BR dogs in IPO is because of the lack of FCI papers. On top of that people tend to buy a puppy from their friends and club members. If you train IPO so do most of your friends. So you by a pup with an IPO background from them and train it in IPO. And the cycle continues. This is why Germany has a lot pure IPO lines. I just saw a pedigree on a dog here in LA that has almost a pure PSA pedigree because of this concept. 

With that said I think that a great many people should seek out dogs titled in the sport they want to do simply because most people don't get a chance to see the dogs. For example, my new dog is BR lines. I bought him because I have been lucky enough to see a lot of dogs that are related to him. I have seen his parents, uncles and aunts, siblings and more cousins than I can count. So I felt comfortable that although he has no IPO dogs in his background he was a dog to take a chance on. And I have never regretted it for a moment, he is the best dog I have ever owned. But if I had to buy a dog and I didn't know the family, I would most likely get a dog with a strong IPO background. It's the safe thing to do.


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## Christopher Smith

Danny Craig said:


> I have a quibble with the dogs you've cited.
> 
> Master's sire and grandsire were excellent tracking dogs.
> 
> Bronson's Fekkai Rouge is an excellent tracking dog and that is to be expected when one looks at her pedigree: Doc, Igor, Lupus, Snake, Robby - all world class tracking dogs and producers of world class tracking dogs.
> 
> Vion - super tracking on sire's side.
> 
> Simba - Great dog. If you ranked his three phases, how would you rank them? (Rhetorical question.)
> 
> Don't know the last dog.
> 
> My point is simple (don't know what other factors I am not including.) If one wants a brown dog, they should look for brown dogs out of brown dogs which, themselves, were out of brown dogs. Sure something else will pop up once in a while but your odds of getting a brown dog out of brown dogs are much better than getting a white dog out of those same brown dogs.
> 
> Therefore, if you want to play in Schutzhund get dogs out of dogs that have excelled in Schutzhund. If you want a Pekingese get it out of Pekingese parents.
> 
> Of course if the Schutzhund parents are only average, then it may make sense to get a pup from excellent Ring parents. All things being equal though, apples to apples, get your pup from lines that have demonstrated they can do your sport.
> 
> Peace out Homey.:smile:


Don't try to move the finish line. :lol::lol::lol:

None of the top dogs are "pure" (your word) FR or IPO in the US. Maybe the best dogs are a mix of lines?


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: Master's sire Yagus, also an excellent tracking dog, was out of Stoned (a Ring line dog) and Mira, a Ring line dog. Maybe Yagus got his tracking abilities from his father, but who did his father get them from?

I find that it is the training that makes them good trackers. Not the genetics. Most of the time you will see "Bob" and all his dogs are really good trackers, then you see "Sam" and all his dogs are really good in OB. And so on and so on.

Quote: I think that it's more of a test of the dogs nerves and ability to concentrate. I believe that BR, and to a lesser extent Mondio, also select for these same traits. 

I have heard it is a test of nerve but do not see the correlation, unless you are talking about a disaster of a dog.


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## Shade Whitesel

I think everyone is heading in thinking in the same direction; i.e. if you want a dog for a specific sport, then your best bet may be to either get a dog out of dogs you know personally(provided you know enough about the sport), or to get a dog that is from dogs titled in your specific sport. 
From a person who is rather new to mali lines, it does seem like most all Schutzhund malinois all go back to basically a combination of french, belgium, etc...lines. And of course, if the Schutzhund lines come from ring, then someone had to pass those genetics on. 
But I still might agree with Danny. If we are selecting from dogs that track nicely, and doing a sport that rewards that, those dogs will get bred. If you are in a sport that doesn't care if the dog could track it's way out of a box, then you risk losing those genes. Tracking requires such a different mindset in the dog, and french ring does not select for that mindset. (just my opinion, I'm sure I'm going to piss someone off!)
Out of the the 7 malinois that are in my ring club, none but mine has an ounce of Sch lines. One of those other 6, I would take a repeat breeding of in a second if I wanted to do Schutzhund, because he thinks slowly and methodically while tracking... The others, maybe they have littermates or something that can track, and MAYBE I could get a Sch 3 track out of them, but I would be crazy to take on that challenge if I really wanted to title and compete. And mine, he tracked so nicely yesterday....


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## Shade Whitesel

Jeff, the training does create good trackers. Mainly because the good trainers look at their shitty trackers and only enter them in trials where they get easy tracks. They then bust out their good trackers and trial them on the hard tracks.


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## Christopher Smith

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I have heard it is a test of nerve but do not see the correlation, unless you are talking about a disaster of a dog.


So you admit that nerves do count. I think that a "disaster" of a dog will make disastrous mistakes because of his nerves. But when you are looking to win championships it comes down to 1/2 points, in many cases, as the dogs that are less reactive make fewer of those minor mistakes. It dosen't take a disaster to lose a championship.


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## Christopher Smith

Kadi Thingvall said:


> Isn't Schutzhund (IPO) changing the rules right now though to say GSD don't have to, and actually shouldn't, "heel like a Malinois".


That was something that that the Director of Judges for the SV was said. Maybe he want's to make that a guideline for SV events? But it won't ever be a rule.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Why would anyone, other than you, choose a dog like this to work ? HA HA I have seen dogs that flinch when the wind blows. They will do that wether they are tracking or not. I know that people train all kinds of shitters now, I grew up were the helpers would not bother with a dog like these.

I have seen slightly nervy dogs do well with tracking because the owner loves to track and is very good at teaching it. 

When I was a kid, we had a ******* that was flinchy as shit. I heard that tracking was a test of nerves, and that is the kind of dog that they were saying won't track well. She never did it in a trial, but she sure as hell would do it, and anywhere you wanted. This was before they made the 3 track 15 feet. LOL She was nice and methodical. You could have as many people out there as you wanted.

Saying that a shitter won't track well is not really a test of nerve. Why would you need to see this dog track to figure that out ???


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## Christopher Smith

Shade Whitesel said:


> Jeff, the training does create good trackers. Mainly because the good trainers look at their shitty trackers and only enter them in trials where they get easy tracks. They then bust out their good trackers and trial them on the hard tracks.


And some good trackers are created by good training.


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## Mike Scheiber

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: Master's sire Yagus, also an excellent tracking dog, was out of Stoned (a Ring line dog) and Mira, a Ring line dog. Maybe Yagus got his tracking abilities from his father, but who did his father get them from?
> 
> I find that it is the training that makes them good trackers. Not the genetics. Most of the time you will see "Bob" and all his dogs are really good trackers, then you see "Sam" and all his dogs are really good in OB. And so on and so on.
> 
> Quote: I think that it's more of a test of the dogs nerves and ability to concentrate. I believe that BR, and to a lesser extent Mondio, also select for these same traits.
> 
> I have heard it is a test of nerve but do not see the correlation, unless you are talking about a disaster of a dog.


Oh genetics do matter for Schutzhund tracking and can make life on the tracking field a dream. Don't let any one shit you on this I have walked to many hundreds of miles behind countless dogs to not discount genetics.
From my observations and experience the Mali seems to require the most amount of handling/training/manipulation to make consistent V tracking.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Do you consider it a test of nerve ? 

I would not select a dog like Buko for tracking, as he rarely even puts his nose to the ground, never has as long as I have had him. I am sure he could be taught, but I would not select him out of a litter, thats for sure.

I am not sure how Joker did at tracking, but he seemed to do Sch sorta well.


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## Christopher Smith

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Do you consider it a test of nerve ?


That's a big part of it.


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## Selena van Leeuwen

Danny Craig said:


> Master's sire and grandsire were excellent tracking dogs.
> 
> Bronson's Fekkai Rouge is an excellent tracking dog and that is to be expected when one looks at her pedigree: Doc, Igor, Lupus, Snake, Robby - all world class tracking dogs and producers of world class tracking dogs.
> >


Igor, Snake and Robby are very familiar dogs to me. And at least for Igor I know my parents spent a lot of training on tracking and the other fases. Not sure it was all genetics with him....


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## Mike Scheiber

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Do you consider it a test of nerve ?





Christopher Smith said:


> That's a big part of it.


Not sure its the same nerve you think of when the word is tossed around I would call it more of a drive.


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## Shade Whitesel

I think it's nerve in the fact that the dog has to think while stressed and in drive. (Only on a hard Sch 3 track or an FH) Not nerve when you are talking about protection work, but nerve in a different way. 
If only training mattered, both my dogs would be awesome trackers (or mediocre, depending on how good I am). They are the same age. One consistantly gets a V score, the other has not got his Sch 1 yet. One's a dream to walk behind, the other not so much...


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## Jeff Oehlsen

That sounds like a training thing right there. You have the one that likes to do it and does it well, and the other, you don't like to track with.


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## Steve Burger

In my limited experience it seems like most dogs are much better trackers than their handlers are trainers of tracking. It was not until I learned to stay the hell out of the way (at least most of the time) that my first dog developed to the point where I was not freaked out if she was going to get a passing score. Of course this is difficult for control freak dog handlers to do.


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## Christopher Smith

I don't think that it is much of a test of drive. In fact too much drive is a classic Malinois problem in IPO tracking. 

The type of nerve I'm talking about is the reactivity or twitch that gives most Malinois an edge in obedience and protection.


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## Martine Loots

Each sport requires a certain "type of dog" and if your dog is the right type then he'll do well in that sport, no matter the lines he comes from.
But I agree that the breeding programs in the different sports target to the specific dog type needed so it's obvious you're more likely to find your "ideal dog" from lines of your specific discipline.


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## Geoff Empey

Sure breeders can selectively do pairings for the required traits for a <insert>specific job, sport and even improve certain aspects within that breeding if the breeder knows what they are looking for. 

With the GSD there was 40-60 years after World War 2 that you could specifically say Czech Lines or American Show lines before that it was a GSD and that was that for the most part. 

So at what point do we say that certain Malinois 'lines' are now Schutzhund lines? To me there hasn't been enough watering down to say that there is that tangible difference, that you can measure. The people who say that there is are living in an internet hearsay GSD fairy tale IMO.


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## Martine Loots

Geoff Empey said:


> So at what point do we say that certain Malinois 'lines' are now Schutzhund lines? To me there hasn't been enough watering down to say that there is that tangible difference, that you can measure. The people who say that there is are living in an internet hearsay GSD fairy tale IMO.


Well I do say that there is a big difference in type for the different sports (and I don't know that from the internet  ). I'd even call them different breeds.
The malinois type that you see in for instance the German IPO lines is completely different from the dogs we work with.
So are the FR and MR malinois although they come closer to the BR type.


----------



## Steve Burger

Christopher Smith said:


> I don't think that it is much of a test of drive. In fact too much drive is a classic Malinois problem in IPO tracking.
> 
> The type of nerve I'm talking about is the reactivity or twitch that gives most Malinois an edge in obedience and protection.


 But it would be interesting to see the differences in training methods. I have not seen a ton of Mali's tracking. I do occasionally see some extremely high drive/sharper GSD or a freaky high drive dobermann (like the young female I have) who you would think would be hectic on the track. However they were allowed to track in the beginning without interference from the handler and they are very intense but slow and methodical at the same time. Many, many handlers seem to try to steer the dogs from the get go. It makes sense that reactive dog brought up in such a way is going to be more hectic on the track.


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## will fernandez

I have always been curious about the differences in german lines like airport hanover or Peter Engels dogs and a french line like Vulcain. Dont know enough people on this side of the pond that have them but would love to hear some first hand experience.


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## Christopher Smith

Steve Burger said:


> But it would be interesting to see the differences in training methods. I have not seen a ton of Mali's tracking. I do occasionally see some extremely high drive/sharper GSD or a freaky high drive dobermann (like the young female I have) who you would think would be hectic on the track. However they were allowed to track in the beginning without interference from the handler and they are very intense but slow and methodical at the same time. Many, many handlers seem to try to steer the dogs from the get go. It makes sense that reactive dog brought up in such a way is going to be more hectic on the track.


I never said anything about hectic. But I do agree that hectic behavior is caused by bad training in most cases. It's a symptom of the dog being worried and lacking confidence.


----------



## Christopher Smith

will fernandez said:


> I have always been curious about the differences in german lines like airport hanover or Peter Engels dogs and a french line like Vulcain. Dont know enough people on this side of the pond that have them but would love to hear some first hand experience.


At this point I wouldn't call them 'French lines' I would call them French type since most of the french dogs are a mix of Belgian lines too. The French dogs tend to be really twitchy and sensitive and fast. The biting is hit and miss. They tend to be easy to make flashy obedience with. They are smaller. I will never do schutzhund again with a French type dog. 

The first time I noticed a big difference in the German type and other types of Malinois I was in Germany tracking. I noticed that every single German dog came out of the car and stood there. They didn't really check out the area like most Malinois would. I had never seen Malinois do this before. They were all very internal. Like bull breeds tend to be. They are also less handler sensitive than most Malinois and more explosive after they have been capped. Most can't jump worth a damn. I think the KNPV type is very similar in a lot of ways to the German type. But there might be a very good reason for that; Malinois pedigrees being what they are. :wink:


I know, I know..._your_ _________ line Malinois isn't like that.


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## will fernandez

Now Christopher... what would make you think that I would have that type of reply?


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## Christopher Smith

That's S.O.P for me on these boards. The you was was not a _you; _it was meant for the general readership.


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## Steve Burger

Christopher Smith said:


> I never said anything about hectic. But I do agree that hectic behavior is caused by bad training in most cases. It's a symptom of the dog being worried and lacking confidence.


 Are you referring to speed? In that case I would still wonder about training methods and handler interference or track style. I don't have any answers I am just thinking of scenario's to help understand.


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## Danny Craig

I’ve done a little research. I looked at the top five placing Malinois in the most recent DMC, FMBB and FCI Championships. I went through each dog’s pedigree and counted the number of titled Schutzhund dogs in each dog’s pedigree. I started with the place-winning dog and then added in the parents, grandparents and great-grandparents. For each dog that represents 15 dogs. Multiply that times 5 dogs and you have 75 dogs total for each championship. For the three Championships that adds up to 225 dogs.

Here’s what I found:

2010 DMC Championship
63 SchH (84%)
12 Ring or KNPV titled or untitled out of Ring or KNPV lines

2010 FMBB
62 SchH (83%)
13 Ring or KNPV titled or untitled out of Ring or KNPV lines

2010 FCI
65 SchH (87%)
10 Ring or KNPV titled or untitled out of Ring or KNPV lines

Overall:

Out of 225 dogs:
190 SchH (84%)
35 Ring or KNPV titled or untitled out of Ring or KNPV lines

I’m guessing the number of Ring or KNPV dogs will decline over the next few years and then hold steady at 5% +/-.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

My guess is that people will start breeding back to ring lines, as their dogs already act like GSDs. 

PLUS, you are using EU as your base, and of course we are talking about the US. What are the statistics here ?


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## Danny Craig

Danny Craig said:


> I’ve done a little research. I looked at the top five placing Malinois in the most recent DMC, FMBB and FCI Championships. I went through each dog’s pedigree and counted the number of titled Schutzhund dogs in each dog’s pedigree. I started with the place-winning dog and then added in the parents, grandparents and great-grandparents. For each dog that represents 15 dogs. Multiply that times 5 dogs and you have 75 dogs total for each championship. For the three Championships that adds up to 225 dogs.
> 
> Here’s what I found:
> 
> 2010 DMC Championship
> 63 SchH (84%)
> 12 Ring or KNPV titled or untitled out of Ring or KNPV lines
> 
> 2010 FMBB
> 62 SchH (83%)
> 13 Ring or KNPV titled or untitled out of Ring or KNPV lines
> 
> 2010 FCI
> 65 SchH (87%)
> 10 Ring or KNPV titled or untitled out of Ring or KNPV lines
> 
> Overall:
> 
> Out of 225 dogs:
> 190 SchH (84%)
> 35 Ring or KNPV titled or untitled out of Ring or KNPV lines
> 
> I’m guessing the number of Ring or KNPV dogs will decline over the next few years and then hold steady at 5% +/-.


Ok. I did the same data analysis for 2005.

Here's what I found:

2010 DMC 
33 SchH (44%)
42 Ring or KNPV titled or untitled out of Ring or KNPV lines

2010 FMBB
36 SchH (48%)
39 Ring or KNPV titled or untitled out of Ring or KNPV lines

2010 FCI
28 SchH (37%)
47 Ring or KNPV titled or untitled out of Ring or KNPV lines

Overall, in 2005, 43% of the top five placing dogs' three generation ancestors were Schutzhund dogs.

In 2010 that percentage is 84%

In only five years, there has been a nearly 100% increase in the concentration of Schutzhund dogs in the three generation pedigree's of dogs that have placed in the top 5 at the DMC, FMBB and FCI.

This supports my earlier contention that - all things being equal - if you want to play in Schutzhund, get your prospect from dogs with a strong Schutzhund background. It will give you your best chance of success. The most succesful competitors at the three most prestigious Malinois competitions in the Schutzhund world seem to be doing just that.

I also think that Kadi, Shade, Martine, Chris and I are saying essentially the same thing.

(This should not be read to mean that we should only use Schutzhund dogs in Schutzhund breeding programs. We will always need to supplement Schutzhund genetics with dogs from the Ring Sports and KNPV.)


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## Jeff Oehlsen

QUote: We will always need to supplement Schutzhund genetics with dogs from the Ring Sports and KNPV.)


Which tells us what about Sch ?? : )


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## Edward Egan

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> QUote: We will always need to supplement Schutzhund genetics with dogs from the Ring Sports and KNPV.)
> 
> 
> Which tells us what about Sch ?? : )


That without SchH, the great internet dog breeders and trialsmen wouldn't have anything to bash around. \\/


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## Shade Whitesel

Or get Schutzhund to add in some better jumps so that we don't have to go outside the gene pool and risk losing those tracking genetics.....


----------



## tracey schneider

Danny Craig said:


> Ok. I did the same data analysis for 2005.
> 
> Here's what I found:
> 
> 2010 DMC
> 33 SchH (44%)
> 42 Ring or KNPV titled or untitled out of Ring or KNPV lines
> 
> 2010 FMBB
> 36 SchH (48%)
> 39 Ring or KNPV titled or untitled out of Ring or KNPV lines
> 
> 2010 FCI
> 28 SchH (37%)
> 47 Ring or KNPV titled or untitled out of Ring or KNPV lines
> 
> Overall, in 2005, 43% of the top five placing dogs' three generation ancestors were Schutzhund dogs.
> 
> In 2010 that percentage is 84%
> 
> In only five years, there has been a nearly 100% increase in the concentration of Schutzhund dogs in the three generation pedigree's of dogs that have placed in the top 5 at the DMC, FMBB and FCI.
> 
> This supports my earlier contention that - all things being equal - if you want to play in Schutzhund, get your prospect from dogs with a strong Schutzhund background. It will give you your best chance of success. The most succesful competitors at the three most prestigious Malinois competitions in the Schutzhund world seem to be doing just that.
> 
> I also think that Kadi, Shade, Martine, Chris and I are saying essentially the same thing.
> 
> (This should not be read to mean that we should only use Schutzhund dogs in Schutzhund breeding programs. We will always need to supplement Schutzhund genetics with dogs from the Ring Sports and KNPV.)


:-o:-o:-o:-o

Goodness some of you have alot of time on your hands.... whew!


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: In only five years, there has been a nearly 100% increase in the concentration of Schutzhund dogs in the three generation pedigree's of dogs that have placed in the top 5 at the DMC, FMBB and FCI.

So that could not possibly be that people who do Sch, are giving their pups to other club members that do Sch ? Much easier to get a pup from dogs that are right there in the club.


----------



## Martine Loots

Shade Whitesel said:


> Or* get Schutzhund to add in some better jumps* so that we don't have to go outside the gene pool and risk losing those tracking genetics.....


I had no idea that there were so many bad jumpers in SCH. Is this true?


----------



## Shade Whitesel

Very bad jumpers. Especially the gsds. (sorry about pissing people off on that one.) The gsds can barely clear the hurdle, the mals stott over it like a deer. Wierd. Maybe no one is teaching their dogs to jump? If we added the palisade back in, I doubt half the dogs could pass.


----------



## Martine Loots

Christopher Smith said:


> At this point I wouldn't call them 'French lines' I would call them French type since most of the french dogs are a mix of Belgian lines too. The French dogs tend to be really twitchy and sensitive and fast. The biting is hit and miss. They tend to be easy to make flashy obedience with. They are smaller. I will never do schutzhund again with a French type dog.
> 
> The first time I noticed a big difference in the German type and other types of Malinois I was in Germany tracking. I noticed that every single German dog came out of the car and stood there. They didn't really check out the area like most Malinois would. I had never seen Malinois do this before. They were all very internal. Like bull breeds tend to be. They are also less handler sensitive than most Malinois and more explosive after they have been capped. Most can't jump worth a damn.* I think the KNPV type is very similar in a lot of ways to the German type*. But there might be a very good reason for that; Malinois pedigrees being what they are. :wink:
> 
> 
> I know, I know..._your_ _________ line Malinois isn't like that.


I wouldn't say that. I'd even call them almost opposite types. Would like to know what Selena or Alice think about that?
To me the "german" type is more conditioned. More will to please type of dogs whereas KNPV type dogs are more serious.


----------



## Martine Loots

Shade Whitesel said:


> Very bad jumpers. Especially the gsds. (sorry about pissing people off on that one.) The gsds can barely clear the hurdle, the mals stott over it like a deer. Wierd. Maybe no one is teaching their dogs to jump? If we added the palisade back in, I doubt half the dogs could pass.


Oh ok, I thought you were talking about the Mal


----------



## Shade Whitesel

Talking about the mals too. Compared to the gsds, they jump great. But compared to small little french type mals, they are clumsy and jump wierd. Not all of course, just being stereotypical here.


----------



## Kadi Thingvall

Martine Loots said:


> Oh ok, I thought you were talking about the Mal


There are a lot of bad jumpers in the Sch Mals also. Not that there aren't bad jumpers in the Ring dogs, but I see more jumping problems in the Sch Malinois. Dogs that struggle with the hurdle and even the a-frame.


----------



## Martine Loots

Kadi Thingvall said:


> There are a lot of bad jumpers in the Sch Mals also. Not that there aren't bad jumpers in the Ring dogs, but I see more jumping problems in the Sch Malinois. Dogs that struggle with the hurdle and even the a-frame.


Seems like a logical consequence of the jumps being so easy in SCH... No focus on jumping qualities in the breeding program, which is a shame.
But serious, a dog that isn't even able of jumping 1m or a 1.8m A-frame... I'd call that disabled in stead of bad jumper.


----------



## Christopher Smith

Martine Loots said:


> Seems like a logical consequence of the jumps being so easy in SCH...


It's also logical that people don't train for it either. And remember technically there are no jumps in schutzhund, they are retrieves. This adds a dynamic not found in ring sports.


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: And remember technically there are no jumps in schutzhund, they are retrieves.

Just shit in the way, right ? I guess technically, there is "aggression" in the bark and hold. LOL

THere are good jumping dogs and shit jumping dogs. Doesn't matter if it is trained for or not. Some dogs just cannot jump, and you have to take that into consideration when breeding.


----------



## Martine Loots

Christopher Smith said:


> It's also logical that people don't train for it either. And remember technically there are no jumps in schutzhund, they are retrieves. This adds a dynamic not found in ring sports.


Indeed and I think that is sad. But then again, this is no excuse for using dogs that can't jump for breeding. Every dog that is healthy and built like it should be, should be able to jump those easy obstacles. This isn't something that has to be trained, it's a natural ability. If they can't do that, then there is a serious problem and they shouldn't be used for breeding


----------



## Geoff Empey

Martine Loots said:


> Indeed and I think that is sad. But then again, this is no excuse for using dogs that can't jump for breeding. Every dog that is healthy and built like it should be, should be able to jump those easy obstacles. This isn't something that has to be trained, it's a natural ability. If they can't do that, then there is a serious problem and they shouldn't be used for breeding


A+++++! 

I see dogs now that still struggle with the A-Frame not just in natural ability but in the 'nerve' to actually go over the stupid thing. Which is another sad story all together. Some one bred the dog and then someone says it will do <insert sport> but ... well you know! LOL!


----------



## Christopher Smith

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> THere are good jumping dogs and shit jumping dogs. Doesn't matter if it is trained for or not. Some dogs just cannot jump,...


And some people can't train.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Keep practicing Chris, you will be able to train in a few decades. Until then you can amuse me with your cringing dog.


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## Julie Blanding

Chris: I agree with you! Some dogs just can't jump, but others are too interested in getting to the dumbbell quickly! For example my GSD (who is large) can clear 1.1M easily on the ring jump, but when he goes for the dumbbell he doesn't care about clearing the schutzhund hurdle in order to get to the dumbbell faster. He sails over the jump on the way back after the prize is in his mouth. 

He also has no problems going over the wall, but again you see the yahooo launch on the other side to get to the dumbbell faster.

Yes, I am a bad trainer, he is not a bad jumper









Julie


----------



## tracey schneider

Martine Loots said:


> Indeed and I think that is sad. But then again, this is no excuse for using dogs that can't jump for breeding. Every dog that is healthy and built like it should be, should be able to jump those easy obstacles. This isn't something that has to be trained, it's a natural ability. If they can't do that, then there is a serious problem and they shouldn't be used for breeding


 I agree esp in a breed built like a mal.... there is no reason they shouldn't be going over with ease ... unless a training issue.


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## Christopher Smith

Yep Julie it happens a lot in IPO. I just had a friends bitch with me last week. This bitch has big problems retrieving over the meter, but I put her in a 6 foot high run and she had jumped out by the time I got back in the house. The bitch can jump but has a hard time concentrating on the jump and the retrieves at the same time. 

This is just points out how stupid it is to think you fully understand a sport without doing it. Or to think that just because your sport has an exercise that seems the same, that it is the same or should be trained the same as your sport.


----------



## Christopher Smith

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Keep practicing Chris, you will be able to train in a few decades. Until then you can amuse me with your cringing dog.


Lick...Lick...
Smack...Smack...
I'll jump Jeff...
just don't give me a whack.


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: Lick...Lick...
Smack...Smack...
I'll jump Jeff...
just don't give me a whack.



Cringe cringe 
on the fringe, 
of running away
If this is so
I guess there is no
tracking today !

What, you thought you would stump me with some stupid poem ? 

I can do this shit all day.


----------



## Christopher Smith

Don't forget the visual Jeff\\/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2RWFh3LZ0Kk


----------



## Martine Loots

Christopher Smith said:


> And some people can't train.


Wasn't talking about training issues. These can happen with every dog.
I know "bad jumpers" in BR too that could jump very well as young dogs. There the handler blew it with bad training.

What I was talking about is dogs that "physically" can't clear a 1m hurdle or a 1.80m a-frame with ease. Those animals shouldn't be bred.


----------



## Danny Craig

Martine Loots said:


> Wasn't talking about training issues. These can happen with every dog.
> I know "bad jumpers" in BR too that could jump very well as young dogs. There the handler blew it with bad training.
> 
> What I was talking about is dogs that "physically" can't clear a 1m hurdle or a 1.80m a-frame with ease. Those animals shouldn't be bred.


For sure Martine. And since Schutzhund does not emphasize jumping in any real sense, we should always return to the Ring dogs for genetics to try (as best we can) to keep the gene pool in Schutzhund healthy. For Schutzhund breeders, it's a balancing act.

Personally, the NVBK lines are my favorite to add. Big strong dogs, strong nerves and big grips. (Paperwork not withstanding.)

This is an example of the type of dog I will always want in my genetics - not too far back. No matter what sport I play in.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_olcUF5Tl8


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## tracey schneider

Very nice, I likey.... and was that 3 legs?


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## Danny Craig

tracey delin said:


> Very nice, I likey.... and was that 3 legs?


Yes. Lost a foreleg as a result of a training accident (is what I was told). Those are the grips we never want to lose. 

And this is the jumping we never want to lose.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7538643426586895532#

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7538643426586895532#docid=-293559663970804606


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## Dave Kroyer

schutzhund is stupid and easy. any weak dog and bad trainer can get sch title. its the laughing joke of the dog sport world. i was at the bsp in fall and every dog was weak. And the precision of the training was boring. i have to go back and watch jerry springer now. d


----------



## Thomas Barriano

Dave Kroyer said:


> schutzhund is stupid and easy. any weak dog and bad trainer can get sch title. its the laughing joke of the dog sport world. i was at the bsp in fall and every dog was weak. And the precision of the training was boring. i have to go back and watch jerry springer now. d


Interesting observation from someone that charges $80 hr for private lessons to do Schutzhund and gives seminars in SCHUTZHUND 
Schutzhund may be "the laughing joke of the dog sport world." but if you can make a buck off it, that's OK?
I detect a bit of hypocrisy here Dave.


----------



## Christopher Smith

Thomas Barriano said:


> Interesting observation from someone that charges $80 hr for private lessons to do Schutzhund and gives seminars in SCHUTZHUND
> Schutzhund may be "the laughing joke of the dog sport world." but if you can make a buck off it, that's OK?
> I detect a bit of hypocrisy here Dave.


I detect a lot sarcasm. :lol:

Thomas here is a little something you might want to keep in mind. No one who has ever had any real success at schutzhund says that it's easy. Most of the idiots that say that shit have never done it. And those that have will never talk about their sad ass scores.


----------



## Thomas Barriano

Christopher Smith said:


> I detect a lot sarcasm. :lol:
> 
> > Moi?
> 
> Thomas here is a little something you might want to keep in mind. No one who has ever had any real success at schutzhund says that it's easy. Most of the idiots that say that shit have never done it. And those that have will never talk about their sad ass scores.
> 
> >I totally agree with you.


----------



## Mike Scheiber

Thomas Barriano said:


> Interesting observation from someone that charges $80 hr for private lessons to do Schutzhund and gives seminars in SCHUTZHUND
> Schutzhund may be "the laughing joke of the dog sport world." but if you can make a buck off it, that's OK?
> I detect a bit of hypocrisy here Dave.


I think he's goofing least I hope he is.


----------



## Thomas Barriano

Mike Scheiber said:


> I think he's goofing least I hope he is.




I hope so too, but that sure isn't the impression one gets from what he posted. :-(


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## Christopher Smith

Is sarcasm completely lost on you guys?


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## Jeff Oehlsen

No, but the wording of that sentence is.


----------



## Joby Becker

Christopher Smith said:


> Is sarcasm completely lost on you guys?


I WAS watching Jerry Springer, and I got it even..


----------



## Danny Craig

Thinking about it, in the sport of Schutzhund, the Malinois may have a genetic advantage long-term over GSDs.

With Schutzhund lacking the jumping that insures structurally healthy dogs, the Malinois can always turn to the Ring Sports to shore up this issue. Whereas the GSD really have no sport to turn to for help with their genetics. (Or do they?)


----------



## Christopher Smith

Do you think that it's an IPO advantage or an American advantage? The ability to go to all of the different types within the breed is an advantage the we have in the US. But I don't think that other countries are taking that advantage.


----------



## Geoff Empey

Danny Craig said:


> Whereas the GSD really have no sport to turn to for help with their genetics. (Or do they?)


Sure they do Danny .. they can always put in some Malinois here and there! :-\" You know like the Golden Doodles? Germaois African Doodles! :lol: Then sell them as a new breed!


----------



## Chad Byerly

Danny Craig said:


> dc
> http://templeofthetree.com/


Hey Danny, nice to see you here.


----------



## Danny Craig

Christopher Smith said:


> Do you think that it's an IPO advantage or an American advantage? The ability to go to all of the different types within the breed is an advantage the we have in the US. But I don't think that other countries are taking that advantage.


European Malinois Breeders can use the best BR, FR, MR and KNPV dogs in their lines and do. There are European breeders that occasionally return to these lines to replenish their genetics. And the best dogs to do this with are over there so I think they have the advantage in terms of geography. I also think their breeding standards overall are much higher than what exists here in the Malinois community and they have a much wider selection of excellent dogs to choose from. As far as breeding, I don't think American's have any advantage - none that comes to mind anyway. If they did, I think you'd see American dogs being exported to Europe rather than vise versa.


----------



## Danny Craig

Chad Byerly said:


> Hey Danny, nice to see you here.


Thanks Chad.


----------



## Christopher Smith

Danny Craig said:


> European Malinois Breeders can use the best BR, FR, MR and KNPV dogs in their lines and do. There are European breeders that occasionally return to these lines to replenish their genetics. And the best dogs to do this with are over there so I think they have the advantage in terms of geography. I also think their breeding standards overall are much higher than what exists here in the Malinois community and they have a much wider selection of excellent dogs to choose from. As far as breeding, I don't think American's have any advantage - none that comes to mind anyway. If they did, I think you'd see American dogs being exported to Europe rather than vise versa.


They CAN use outside dogs but they don't do it nearly as often as American breeders do. Like I have said before, people tend to buy dogs from people they know. A few years ago I was talking to a few guys that do BR. Their club is less than a km from a very well known schutzhund club and I was surprised to find that they had never been to the IPO club. The IPO guys don't go to their club either. And this is not an isolated case. 

As far a standards being higher or lower I have not seen that. I have seen the same amount of well bred dogs on both sides of the Atlantic. What I have seen is that Europeans breed more dogs thus they have more good dogs. The more milk the cow produces the more cream can be skimmed off of the top. 

How many dogs we send to Europe as nothing to do with quality, IMO. The financial restraints alone are a huge restriction. They also don't get a chance to see very many US bred dogs. Along with people buying dogs from people they know, they also tend to buy dogs that they have seen. 

Buying dogs from Europe just makes more sense than the other way around. I'm sure many feel as though they are getting a better dog from Europe, even though the stats say otherwise. How often has a dog been brought to the US, untrained, won anything? I think that most people buy imported dogs for the cache. It's easy to get breedings and sell puppies out of an import than it is to get breedings for native bred dogs. You can have the same two pair of blue jeans but once one of them has a prestigious label that pair becomes 'better'.


----------



## Danny Craig

Christopher Smith said:


> They CAN use outside dogs but they don't do it nearly as often as American breeders do. Like I have said before, people tend to buy dogs from people they know. A few years ago I was talking to a few guys that do BR. Their club is less than a km from a very well known schutzhund club and I was surprised to find that they had never been to the IPO club. The IPO guys don't go to their club either. And this is not an isolated case.
> 
> As far a standards being higher or lower I have not seen that. I have seen the same amount of well bred dogs on both sides of the Atlantic. What I have seen is that Europeans breed more dogs thus they have more good dogs. The more milk the cow produces the more cream can be skimmed off of the top.
> 
> How many dogs we send to Europe as nothing to do with quality, IMO. The financial restraints alone are a huge restriction. They also don't get a chance to see very many US bred dogs. Along with people buying dogs from people they know, they also tend to buy dogs that they have seen.
> 
> Buying dogs from Europe just makes more sense than the other way around. I'm sure many feel as though they are getting a better dog from Europe, even though the stats say otherwise. How often has a dog been brought to the US, untrained, won anything? I think that most people buy imported dogs for the cache. It's easy to get breedings and sell puppies out of an import than it is to get breedings for native bred dogs. You can have the same two pair of blue jeans but once one of them has a prestigious label that pair becomes 'better'.


It's difficult to make the argument (for me anyway) that we have as many good dogs or are breeding as many good dogs as the Europeans because there is no empirical evidence to support such a claim. We may but until I see evidence to suggest such I will remain agnostic on the question. All the available evidence I have (outcomes at the FMBB or FCI) suggest that the best dogs come from Europe.

The only evidence we have to suggest otherwise, as far as I can tell, is anecdotal, i.e., word of mouth. Which suggests another advantage the Europeans have in selecting appropriate breeding stock. Dogs bred in Europe are generally much more vetted than dogs in the U.S. Especially in Schutzhund. In Europe, it's not often that females are bred without first demonstrating that they can do the sport by earning titles and/or undergoing evaluation in breed Koerungs. In the U.S. most litters are out of females devoid of any evidence (other than word of mouth) that the female should even be bred. In Europe, with both males and females, there is another huge advantage in the abundance of big events relatively nearby that also allow for a vetting process that provides an opportunity for a wide audience to see and/or learn about performances on the field. Again, I find this information superior to word of mouth.

As regards to the question of what dogs can I name of that have been imported into this country and won anything, off the top of my head, the last two dominant Malinois in Schutzhund come to mind: Vion la Maschera di Ferro and Qenny ot Vitosha. Of course Qenny was born here however both his parents are imports. I wonder how many successful Malinois there are in this country which have a majority of domestically bred dogs in their 3 generation pedigree. My first thought is that it would probably be an LDS dog in MR. Other than that, I can't think of any.

It's ironic but I think a huge advantage the Europeans have is that there is much more objective information (results, koerungs, health cert.s, etc. vs. word of mouth) available on breeding dogs and their ancestry than here. It's ironic that I can find more information/data on a stud dog or brood bitch in Europe than here.

There are cultural differences too. Europeans tend to be much more likely to follow group norms and rules whereas Americans tend to be much more individualistic and less likely to abide by group norms. This makes it very difficult, if not impossible, for us agree on breeding standards. And, geographically, Europeans have a huge advantage in that they can travel a day or so to bring their female to a large number of males that have been successful on the competition field, may have an excellent koerung and are out of generations of dogs that were just as successful and also may already have 50 or so puppies on the ground.

Is there a Malinois in this country that we have that much information on? There are hundreds in Europe.


----------



## Christopher Smith

> It's difficult to make the argument (for me anyway) that we have as many good dogs or are breeding as many good dogs as the Europeans because there is no empirical evidence to support such a claim. We may but until I see evidence to suggest such I will remain agnostic on the question. All the available evidence I have (outcomes at the FMBB or FCI) suggest that the best dogs come from Europe.


 Danny have you gone to the WUSV when it was held here in the US? The North American dogs scored much better than they do than when they trailed in Europe. Why do you think that is? 
It's a shame that you can't look at other evidence based in your adopted country. Why does all of your evidence have to be based on the FMBB DMC or FCI?



> The only evidence we have to suggest otherwise, as far as I can tell, is anecdotal, i.e., word of mouth. Which suggests another advantage the Europeans have in selecting appropriate breeding stock. Dogs bred in Europe are generally much more vetted than dogs in the U.S. Especially in Schutzhund. In Europe, it's not often that females are bred without first demonstrating that they can do the [FONT=&quot]sport[/FONT] by earning titles and/or undergoing evaluation in breed Koerungs.


 No need to bolster your arguments with half truths. I know most people have a tendency to clump things into nice neat little bundles that are easier to digest, but your clumping is getting out of hand. Show me the NVBK and KNPV brood bitches that have titles? How many bitches in the FR cup last year? How many bitches have ever gone to Cat1? Regale me with tales of the Belgian breed test. 




> In the U.S. most litters are out of females devoid of any evidence (other than word of mouth) that the female should even be bred.


 Do you mean we are just like France, Belgium and Holland? 



> In Europe, with both males and females, there is another huge advantage in the abundance of big events relatively nearby that also allow for a vetting process that provides an opportunity for a wide audience to see and/or learn about performances on the field. Again, I find this information superior to word of mouth.


 Sorry Danny but some of us in the US get out and look at dogs too. Yes it's hard at times. Personally there has not been a Malinois on the US FCI or FMBB team in the last decade that I have not seen with my own eyes. And I'm not the only one I see logging those miles.





> As regards to the question of what dogs can I name of that have been imported into this country and won anything, off the top of my head, the last two dominant Malinois in Schutzhund come to mind: Vion la Maschera di Ferro and Qenny ot Vitosha. Of course Qenny was born here however both his parents are imports. I wonder how many successful Malinois there are in this country which have a majority of domestically bred dogs in their 3 generation pedigree. My first thought is that it would probably be an LDS dog in MR. Other than that, I can't think of any.


Danny, remind me to never play Candyland with you. You cheat like a 5 year-old. My question was; *How often has a dog been brought to the US, untrained, won anything? *You then bring up a dog that was not trained in the US and then follow it by a dog that was bred in the US. Why can't you answer the question as it was presented? Because the answer doesn't support your argument? If it were simply a matter of EU dogs being genetically superior they should be kicking ass as the norm, but that's not the case. 




> It's ironic but I think a huge advantage the Europeans have is that there is much more objective information (results, koerungs, health cert.s, etc. vs. word of mouth) available on breeding dogs and their ancestry than here. It's ironic that I can find more information/data on a stud dog or brood bitch in Europe than here.


 The AWMA has tried for the last couple of years to set up a data base for this info and the person that instigated it was put in charge of the project and has failed to follow through. Would you care to give him a hand? I think this is something that could be a good source for a lot of people. 



> There are cultural differences too. Europeans tend to be much more likely to follow group norms and rules whereas Americans tend to be much more individualistic and less likely to abide by group norms.


 And I see this as a major strength. This allows for diversity of types. Biology shows us again and again the diversity is the key to survival. Now this diversity is bound to have a lot of dogs that you and I may not like, but if we keep those dogs out of our breeding and training programs it doesn't matter much. In your post above you said that we need to continue to outcross every so often as not to lose certain traits. What you're saying in essence is that we need diversity. And the sole purpose of most mandatory breed and health testing is to diminish diversity. I understand that they are trying to decrease the traits that they find negative but in doing so they are creating unforeseen problems (_[FONT=&quot]Belyaev[/FONT]__[FONT=&quot])[/FONT]_. Notice that they have started some search/hunt testing in the korung last few years?

Now due to recent events here in the US, and you being a foreigner with such strong anti-American sentiments. You need to agree with me or get yourself ready for a nice little orange jumpsuited vacation in Cuba.:razz:

 Happy New Year to and your crew!


----------



## Christopher Smith

And a little cross pollination from another thread.... http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/242567-post24.html


----------



## Danny Craig

> Christopher Smith said:
> 
> 
> 
> Danny have you gone to the WUSV when it was held here in the US? The North American dogs scored much better than they do than when they trailed in Europe. Why do you think that is?
> It's a shame that you can't look at other evidence based in your adopted country. Why does all of your evidence have to be based on the FMBB DMC or FCI?
> 
> 
> 
> Believe it or not Chris, I am looking at the evidence and making sense of it as best I can. Perhaps you're smarter than me and have more experience in the breed and that's why you are coming to different conclusions. Hopefully you understand that I am NOT suggesting I know the truth of these matters. These are just my observations based on the information I have and in no way should you think that I think what you are saying is a load of hooey.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No need to bolster your arguments with half truths. I know most people have a tendency to clump things into nice neat little bundles that are easier to digest, but your clumping is getting out of hand. Show me the NVBK and KNPV brood bitches that have titles? How many bitches in the FR cup last year? How many bitches have ever gone to Cat1? Regale me with tales of the Belgian breed test.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> If you reread what I wrote, you'll see that I specifically mention Schutzhund when making this observation.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do you mean we are just like France, Belgium and Holland?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> When it comes to Schutzhund breedings, we are not.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry Danny but some of us in the US get out and look at dogs too. Yes it's hard at times. Personally there has not been a Malinois on the US FCI or FMBB team in the last decade that I have not seen with my own eyes. And I'm not the only one I see logging those miles.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Surely you realize that what you see and what you value may not be what others see and value.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Danny, remind me to never play Candyland with you. You cheat like a 5 year-old. My question was; *How often has a dog been brought to the US, untrained, won anything? *You then bring up a dog that was not trained in the US and then follow it by a dog that was bred in the US. Why can't you answer the question as it was presented? Because the answer doesn't support your argument? If it were simply a matter of EU dogs being genetically superior they should be kicking ass as the norm, but that's not the case.
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> Click to expand...
> 
> Not familiar with Candyland. I was unaware that Vion was not trained here. That will be news to some. If you regard Qenny as evidence that our domestically bred dogs are competing on an equal footing with the Europeans, you're certainly entitled to that opinion. I don't share that opinion.
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> The AWMA has tried for the last couple of years to set up a data base for this info and the person that instigated it was put in charge of the project and has failed to follow through. Would you care to give him a hand? I think this is something that could be a good source for a lot of people.
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> 
> If you think this would be valuable, perhaps you'd be inclined to help put such a program together. Personally, given the nature of dog sports and dog breeding in this country, I do not hold out any hope that such a program would ever come to fruition. I suspect that whoever proposed such a project was well-intentioned and idealistic.
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> And I see this as a major strength. This allows for diversity of types. Biology shows us again and again the diversity is the key to survival. Now this diversity is bound to have a lot of dogs that you and I may not like, but if we keep those dogs out of our breeding and training programs it doesn't matter much. In your post above you said that we need to continue to outcross every so often as not to lose certain traits. What you're saying in essence is that we need diversity.
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> Click to expand...
> 
> Diversity is a very big word and can mean many things. You may want to have an entirely open breeding registry that allows in any breed. If that's so, you'll have to find another international venue to play in because the AKC and FCI have set up the rules to ensure closed registries. It is what it is.
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> And the sole purpose of most mandatory breed and health testing is to diminish diversity. I understand that they are trying to decrease the traits that they find negative but in doing so they are creating unforeseen problems (_[FONT=&quot]Belyaev[/FONT]__[FONT=&quot])[/FONT]_. Notice that they have started some search/hunt testing in the korung last few years?
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> That's an interesting way of looking at health screening.
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> 
> Now due to recent events here in the US, and you being a foreigner with such strong anti-American sentiments. You need to agree with me or get yourself ready for a nice little orange jumpsuited vacation in Cuba.:razz:
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> Happy New Year to and your crew!
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> 
> Happy New Year to you and yours too Chris.
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## Christopher Smith

Danny I'm sorry, you were right Vion was trained by John here in the States.


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## Danny Craig

Christopher Smith said:


> Danny I'm sorry, you were right Vion was trained by John here in the States.


No worries. Have a great New Years!


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