# prey,hunt and fight drive how to



## milder batmusen (Jun 1, 2009)

as someone just have put in a thread about play and drive

how do you in here built drive in your dogs??

how often du you built drive in your dogs and if any of you i here can put a litle video in here with you building drive in a dog put in it here I am very interrested in how others dog and how often:wink:


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

If you have to build drive, throw the dog away.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

I can only speak from the police canine side of the equation, but I agree with Jeff. If it doesn't have "it", don't buy it. 

DFrost


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

milder batmusen said:


> as someone just have put in a thread about play and drive
> 
> how do you in here built drive in your dogs??
> 
> how often du you built drive in your dogs and if any of you i here can put a litle video in here with you building drive in a dog put in it here I am very interrested in how others dog and how often:wink:


 You can shape a drive but you can't build on what you don't have.


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## xxxxxxxxKarina Scuckyte (Oct 27, 2008)

I have a question about my 13month GSD.

I got her at 1 year, she lived kenneled, not worked or played almost at all, only some walks far from other people and few protection sessions. She is quite soft, maybe it's just because she's a bitch. When I just got her, it was a bit difficult to get her interested in play. It took some time for her to switch on. Now with playing every day at home it's a lot easier, much quicker. But she still doesn't bite unmoving toys to start play. She is a bit shy of people, which I don't like. She still avoids my brother (11 years), doesn't get very near him, wants to run off when he pets her. Same for most people who come in our yard. For those people, maybe it's because my Caucasian is in kennel and barking a lot at them then. But I don't understand that fear of my brother. He gave her treats, played with her a bit. And everything's still the same from the first evening. I'm starting to worry. She avoided my mom at the begining too, but now that's ok. In the city, with people I didn't notice any problems. She won't go to someone, but quite likes to be petted. I didn't see any fear ir even shyness.

There is (or was) another issue. She didn't play at the training field with multiple dogs there. She worked for food, but ignored all the toys. I was worried about that, but maybe I found the solution. When I train obedience, I speek softly and calmly. I tried to speek more loudly and happy, and she did turn on, but it was after the training session, with no dogs left, so I will need to check it next time. 

Another thing, that I'm worried about, is when in play I give the toy to someone else. When I saw her at her previous owner, we played with her, then I took the toy she was grabbing into ant she didn't let go, we played normally. Now when I try to give the toy to my father, she lets it and doesn't want to play with him. Maybe it's because I did the outing too early? I did it with no corrections, playing, and now she drops everything emediately on command and very often when I just get near her, if she's at a distance. Maybe that's why she lets the toy go? But then why she doesn't start to play again? I'm a bit confuced. She looks like a decent dog with cold nerves (not easy to provoke for anything), she has the prey drive, but maybe it's too weak? Or is it just because of no imprinting and work between 2months and 1 year?

Her pedigree, if it would help: http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/607543.html


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## Ted Efthymiadis (Apr 3, 2009)

milder batmusen said:


> as someone just have put in a thread about play and drive
> 
> how do you in here built drive in your dogs??
> 
> how often du you built drive in your dogs and if any of you i here can put a litle video in here with you building drive in a dog put in it here I am very interrested in how others dog and how often:wink:



what are you building drive for?

and how are you building drive?

I have the leerburg building drive and focus dvd, it's a good buy if you have 65 bucks. 

I find sometimes the handler can screw up the dog..... I know I limit my Malinois in many ways. 
Sometimes I will exercise him too much, then train, and he's too tired to hold a very high drive. 

Then again, if the dog is crap, give it to a family as a pet and buy a new dog with drive.


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## Dillon bend (Aug 7, 2009)

This is the sort of thing that drives me nuts and i think is the biggest problem with dog sports. When sombody makes coments like if the dogs doesnt have a lot of drive get a new one. Now I dont know every one on this forum and what they do so aybe you were just saying somethng to sobdy who had good dogs but these coments can really discurage people who are new to this. when I started out in shutzhund it was with a dog that was deffinately not going to get a 1 title but people encouraged me to do as uch as i could with her and I had a lot of fun and eventually got a better dog. there were a few other people in the club that were the same way. the td we had was fro germany and said that that was the attitude in a lot of clubs over their. it was a hobby people did because they wanted to have fun with their dogs. If some one brings their oet dog to a club and is lucky enough to find one that will encourage them to work their dog then eventually they will get a better dog and the sport will grow. If the sport grows it will make it a lot more enjoyable for the rest of us who enjoy it as a hobby. we wont have to drive a hundred miles one way every week to work our dogs and have a lot more good trainers like they do in europe. sorry to change the subject


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Karina Scuckyte said:


> I have a question about my 13month GSD.
> 
> I got her at 1 year, she lived kenneled, not worked or played almost at all, only some walks far from other people and few protection sessions. She is quite soft, maybe it's just because she's a bitch. When I just got her, it was a bit difficult to get her interested in play. It took some time for her to switch on. Now with playing every day at home it's a lot easier, much quicker. But she still doesn't bite unmoving toys to start play. She is a bit shy of people, which I don't like. She still avoids my brother (11 years), doesn't get very near him, wants to run off when he pets her. Same for most people who come in our yard. For those people, maybe it's because my Caucasian is in kennel and barking a lot at them then. But I don't understand that fear of my brother. He gave her treats, played with her a bit. And everything's still the same from the first evening. I'm starting to worry. She avoided my mom at the begining too, but now that's ok. In the city, with people I didn't notice any problems. She won't go to someone, but quite likes to be petted. I didn't see any fear ir even shyness.
> 
> ...


The idea of being more excited and encouraging during obedience is a good idea. In that way you are keeping her focused on you and that it's fun. I personally do not like to work a dog that I have to put twice as much energy into as it gives me. But, maybe this isn't the case with you and your dog. Could you make a video to show how she is? You describe her as shy and afraid of certain people...this would not be a working dog prospect, but for obedience, tracking she could be ok. She may not get "provoked" possibly because she is timid/not brave and deals with stress by just standing there? ]

I've sold puppies that were imprinted from youngsters until they leave at 8weeks or 12 weeks of age. Then the new owner has done basically nothing with them, however when I get most of these dogs back, they have retained the temperament and drives they had as pups. It may be just her personality. I don't put a lot of stock in all the socialization and building of the dog as a pup. I think they are what they are. By playing with the puppies at a young age, you can get an idea of what they are. I say this as you didn't mention that she has had any kind of abuse or heavy corrections, but that she was just kenneled mostly and not trained or played with a lot.


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## Steven Stroupes (Apr 3, 2009)

While I agree that a dog "either has it or it doesn't," I think that a certain emphasis on imprinting drive is important. This is especially true for young dogs. If you are looking for a good starting point for understanding the different drives a dog has, read Training the Behavior. You can buy it for less than $30 bucks on www.siriustrainer.com. It's a good read for people who are new to the dog sport world.


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## xxxxxxxxKarina Scuckyte (Oct 27, 2008)

Debbie Skinner said:


> The idea of being more excited and encouraging during obedience is a good idea. In that way you are keeping her focused on you and that it's fun. I personally do not like to work a dog that I have to put twice as much energy into as it gives me. But, maybe this isn't the case with you and your dog. Could you make a video to show how she is? You describe her as shy and afraid of certain people...this would not be a working dog prospect, but for obedience, tracking she could be ok. She may not get "provoked" possibly because she is timid/not brave and deals with stress by just standing there?


Well, that's not the case. When she's on, she insists on playing, especially retrieving. She's waiting for me to throw something. Tugs too, if the object lets her to do it (we often play with anything we find and not always I can hold it properly). I will try to make a video, but I can't promise, because I train mainly alone or with unknown people (we just come in the training field and work on our own). 

As I know, she was the best of 3 females in her litter. The bravest, the most outgoing and the most driven. I know half sister of her (same father), she is younger, but seems to develope nicely. Her previous owner didn't see any of this shyness, and I didn't see it too, when I took her. We played with her, gave the toy to each other and she did just fine, continuing playing. I believe more and more that she's shy of new people in our yard because of my Caucasian, who is always trying to attack them. Maybe she sees a threat in them. She had some protection sessions and we tested her there. She bit just fine, handled some pressure and accidently she was hit with a whip quite hard, she yelped, let go, but bit again after couple of seconds and ignored the whip. We didn't see any problems. We had some new people today coming, everything was fine, she came for a pet. I just don't get it. Well, we will try to start protection training at the begining of september with a helper, which worked with police dogs for many years, now he's working at the customs, maybe I will see more in her. Her previous owner described her as the best bitch he had (for now he quit breeding and is training a dog from him breeding for sport, he has jis first breeding bitch and one more bitch, a bit older, is given on the same terms as I got my girl). It's odd, that I see that shyness only at home, in our yard. Nowhere else. It was dark when we first got home with her and she avoided all of us, which I certainly didn't like, but it was over in the morning with me and my dad (we both took her from her previous owner. She acted normally. After about a week she was completely fine with my mom, and she didn't even talk to her. But not with my brother.


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Karina Scuckyte said:


> Well, that's not the case. When she's on, she insists on playing, especially retrieving. She's waiting for me to throw something. Tugs too, if the object lets her to do it (we often play with anything we find and not always I can hold it properly). I will try to make a video, but I can't promise, because I train mainly alone or with unknown people (we just come in the training field and work on our own).
> 
> As I know, she was the best of 3 females in her litter. The bravest, the most outgoing and the most driven. I know half sister of her (same father), she is younger, but seems to develope nicely. Her previous owner didn't see any of this shyness, and I didn't see it too, when I took her. We played with her, gave the toy to each other and she did just fine, continuing playing. I believe more and more that she's shy of new people in our yard because of my Caucasian, who is always trying to attack them. Maybe she sees a threat in them. She had some protection sessions and we tested her there. She bit just fine, handled some pressure and accidently she was hit with a whip quite hard, she yelped, let go, but bit again after couple of seconds and ignored the whip. We didn't see any problems. We had some new people today coming, everything was fine, she came for a pet. I just don't get it. Well, we will try to start protection training at the begining of september with a helper, which worked with police dogs for many years, now he's working at the customs, maybe I will see more in her. Her previous owner described her as the best bitch he had (for now he quit breeding and is training a dog from him breeding for sport, he has jis first breeding bitch and one more bitch, a bit older, is given on the same terms as I got my girl). It's odd, that I see that shyness only at home, in our yard. Nowhere else. It was dark when we first got home with her and she avoided all of us, which I certainly didn't like, but it was over in the morning with me and my dad (we both took her from her previous owner. She acted normally. After about a week she was completely fine with my mom, and she didn't even talk to her. But not with my brother.



Are you yelling at your Caucasian and telling him to shut up? Is he transferring his aggression to her i.e. dominating or biting/growling at her when there are you enter with strangers? She seems not comfortable in her home. What is making her afraid at home and more happy and confident away from home?


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## xxxxxxxxKarina Scuckyte (Oct 27, 2008)

Debbie Skinner said:


> Are you yelling at your Caucasian and telling him to shut up? Is he transferring his aggression to her i.e. dominating or biting/growling at her when there are you enter with strangers? She seems not comfortable in her home. What is making her afraid at home and more happy and confident away from home?


I don't yell at him, I can control him with normal commands, sometimes I encourage him, but he has redirected agression to other dogs, if they get in his way. Sometimes he can growl and even nip at her, when people are coming by or if they are both in the kennel (rarely, but there have been such situations). I didn't have any problems because of that, but this girl is more submissive and soft than other dogs that have lived with s (sometimes only for couple of days, when friends leaved them to me). Maybe that's the answer to strangers, but not to the fear of my brother. I will think about not leaving them together at all. She is in heat now, so I will have to kennel her soon anyhow. There are already a couple of muts at our gate.


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## milder batmusen (Jun 1, 2009)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> If you have to build drive, throw the dog away.





David Frost said:


> I can only speak from the police canine side of the equation, but I agree with Jeff. If it doesn't have "it", don't buy it.
> 
> DFrost





Howard Gaines III said:


> You can shape a drive but you can't build on what you don't have.


I agree with all of you 

but dont any of you in here play and build drive with the highly drive dogs you have 
hope you all understand what I am telling


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## milder batmusen (Jun 1, 2009)

Ted Efthymiadis said:


> what are you building drive for?
> 
> and how are you building drive?
> 
> ...



well it is not that my dogs dont have drive they have alot of drive well my male dog is an older dog now so he is retiered but the female has alot of prey and hunt drive 

but I was just wondering how you all train drive with your dogs and ofcourse the higly driven dogs as well:-k:-k


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Karina Scuckyte said:


> I don't yell at him, I can control him with normal commands, sometimes I encourage him, but he has redirected agression to other dogs, if they get in his way. Sometimes he can growl and even nip at her, when people are coming by or if they are both in the kennel (rarely, but there have been such situations). I didn't have any problems because of that, but this girl is more submissive and soft than other dogs that have lived with s (sometimes only for couple of days, when friends leaved them to me). Maybe that's the answer to strangers, but not to the fear of my brother. I will think about not leaving them together at all. She is in heat now, so I will have to kennel her soon anyhow. There are already a couple of muts at our gate.


I wouldn't allow a big Russian guard dog to dominate a young female GSD I was trying to work. Maybe she was acting more weird because she was coming into season or is in season? If not, then I'm running out of ideas. Ask your brother? Or, she's just not a strong dog like you are used to. I've trained one Russian dog a few years ago. They called in an Armenian Wolf Dog or some such. She was big and very dominant and tough at 10 months old. I had a good relationship and understanding with her, however our kennel help who deemed himself a trainer could get nowhere with her. She had his number and she could back him off with a snap or growl. This is very different than a young herding dog.


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

milder batmusen said:


> well it is not that my dogs dont have drive they have alot of drive well my male dog is an older dog now so he is retiered but the female has alot of prey and hunt drive
> 
> but I was just wondering how you all train drive with your dogs and ofcourse the higly driven dogs as well:-k:-k


Play/Train with the dogs for the retrieve and tug and make the protection work fun and challenging. Be sure to be encouraging when they are doing what you want. When you play with the dog put energy into the play and be excited. 

I've seen some trainers work their dog in obedience or jumps and then just hand the dog the tug w/o any interaction as if they are afraid they might burn an extra calorie or two. 

If you are having fun and have energy and good attitude, it will transfer to your dogs. Don't let the dogs play together all day, but have the dogs play time be with you working on exercises that encourage the hunt, retrieve, bite.


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## xxxxxxxxKarina Scuckyte (Oct 27, 2008)

Debbie Skinner said:


> I wouldn't allow a big Russian guard dog to dominate a young female GSD I was trying to work. Maybe she was acting more weird because she was coming into season or is in season? If not, then I'm running out of ideas. Ask your brother? Or, she's just not a strong dog like you are used to. I've trained one Russian dog a few years ago. They called in an Armenian Wolf Dog or some such. She was big and very dominant and tough at 10 months old. I had a good relationship and understanding with her, however our kennel help who deemed himself a trainer could get nowhere with her. She had his number and she could back him off with a snap or growl. This is very different than a young herding dog.


I don't think, that it is connected to her season. What comes to brother, I know him, and know, that he wouldn't do anything unproper to any dog. He is already trained  I see, that she's not a very strong dog, but I surely didn't expect a GSD, especially a bitch, to be strong like a true wolf dog. Armenian Wolf Dog is a tipe of Caucasian Wolf Dog (volkodav, ovcharka, somewhere even shepherd). There are several of them with slightly different appearance and behaviour. Mine was strong, dominant and guarded his territory from 6 months. Though, I don't think that this girl is too weak or too soft. Maybe she will mature. I know a working line GSD bitch, that had weirder fears at about 1 year and they were gone by 2. It was strange to me. This dog was presented as a weak dog with fears, and now she's a breeding bitch that as her owner says, can take any challenge. And I tend to believe it. Well, we will see.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

This is the sort of thing that drives me nuts and i think is the biggest problem with dog sports. When sombody makes coments like if the dogs doesnt have a lot of drive get a new one. Now I dont know every one on this forum and what they do so aybe you were just saying somethng to sobdy who had good dogs but these coments can really discurage people who are new to this.


Well, the other thing is that a dog that does not have much drive, and then you see people trying to BUILD drive, and there is nothing there. This drives people away as well. People do not have what it takes to stay the course and most are just wanting to do something with their dog.

I will work with anyone as long as they want, I let them figure out the dog is not going to do the job. Why encourage someone to keep a weak dog, when it is just heartbreak the longer they try.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

milder batmusen said:


> well it is not that my dogs dont have drive they have alot of drive well my male dog is an older dog now so he is retiered but the female has alot of prey and hunt drive
> 
> but I was just wondering how you all train drive with your dogs and ofcourse the higly driven dogs as well:-k:-k


 Milder you are asking about LOTS of things...
You say the female has prey and hunt drive. What are you using to build on these? Verbals, toys, bite work on the decoy?

Highly driven in what phase? I don't want a highly driven defense dog if it is not clear headed. Now you have pushed this thing over the edge. Monster construction is something some can do, and I understand some former members have done, but clear focus and in the right drive...\\/


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## milder batmusen (Jun 1, 2009)

Howard Gaines III said:


> Milder you are asking about LOTS of things...
> You say the female has prey and hunt drive. What are you using to build on these? Verbals, toys, bite work on the decoy?
> 
> Highly driven in what phase? I don't want a highly driven defense dog if it is not clear headed. Now you have pushed this thing over the edge. Monster construction is something some can do, and I understand some former members have done, but clear focus and in the right drive...
> ...


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## milder batmusen (Jun 1, 2009)

Debbie Skinner said:


> Play/Train with the dogs for the retrieve and tug and make the protection work fun and challenging. Be sure to be encouraging when they are doing what you want. When you play with the dog put energy into the play and be excited.
> 
> I've seen some trainers work their dog in obedience or jumps and then just hand the dog the tug w/o any interaction as if they are afraid they might burn an extra calorie or two.
> 
> If you are having fun and have energy and good attitude, it will transfer to your dogs. Don't let the dogs play together all day, but have the dogs play time be with you working on exercises that encourage the hunt, retrieve, bite.




thanks I do that :mrgreen:


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> If you have to build drive, throw the dog away.


In vino veritas!! Couldn't agree more, although it depends what you are expecting to do with the dog. I had to force the Fila to enjoy the obedience side of things but his tracking drive was high. Biting took a few minutes but when it came, the whole aggression was with it!!


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Dillon bend said:


> This is the sort of thing that drives me nuts and i think is the biggest problem with dog sports. When sombody makes coments like if the dogs doesnt have a lot of drive get a new one. Now I dont know every one on this forum and what they do so aybe you were just saying somethng to sobdy who had good dogs but these coments can really discurage people who are new to this. when I started out in shutzhund it was with a dog that was deffinately not going to get a 1 title but people encouraged me to do as uch as i could with her and I had a lot of fun and eventually got a better dog. there were a few other people in the club that were the same way. the td we had was fro germany and said that that was the attitude in a lot of clubs over their. it was a hobby people did because they wanted to have fun with their dogs. If some one brings their oet dog to a club and is lucky enough to find one that will encourage them to work their dog then eventually they will get a better dog and the sport will grow. If the sport grows it will make it a lot more enjoyable for the rest of us who enjoy it as a hobby. we wont have to drive a hundred miles one way every week to work our dogs and have a lot more good trainers like they do in europe. sorry to change the subject


Yeah I feel the same way. For breeding stock, yes it's very important that only those dogs who have a ton of natural drive be bred, but for everyone else, those who are doing sport as a hobby, (ie anyone who is not a professional breeder or trainer), it kind of makes more sense to train the dog you have, learn from it, get a better dog when you can, and train that one too. While it's true a dog like the one the OP has is never going to burn up the trial circuit, neither are most handlers, regardless of how talented their dog is.

I am not taking issue with people who rehome their dogs if they find the dog does not have the drives they want. I have no problem with that providing they find a good home for the dog. I think as long as the OP has realistic expectations then have fun, train the dog. Just understand that if you do get a dog with more drive you will find the dog and the sport are a lot more fun to work with.


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## milder batmusen (Jun 1, 2009)

susan tuck;135899[B said:


> ]Yeah I feel the same way. For breeding stock, yes it's very important that only those dogs who have a ton of natural drive be bred,[/B] but for everyone else, those who are doing sport as a hobby, (ie anyone who is not a professional breeder or trainer), it kind of makes more sense to train the dog you have, learn from it, get a better dog when you can, and train that one too. While it's true a dog like the one the OP has is never going to burn up the trial circuit, neither are most handlers, regardless of how talented their dog is.
> 
> I am not taking issue with people who rehome their dogs if they find the dog does not have the drives they want. I have no problem with that providing they find a good home for the dog. I think as long as the OP has realistic expectations then have fun, train the dog. Just understand that if you do get a dog with more drive you will find the dog and the sport are a lot more fun to work with.



I agree in that sentence;-)


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