# What makes a good decoy?



## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

Im going to start and am open to helpful suggestions.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Matt Grosch said:


> Im going to start and am open to helpful suggestions.


A good decoy knows it is about the dog, for a trial decoy fairly testing, for a training decoy building the dogs confidence.
I have no use for a decoy that needs to prove something or that doesn't listen. I'm the trainer do what I ask and we'll get along. If you want to try something that you think will help
ASK first.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

1, Speed.

2, Speed

3, Speed.

All the rest is technique. If you are slow, what is the point. Dogs are not challenged by slow.


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> 1, Speed.
> 
> 2, Speed
> 
> ...


 
In general I agree but have been very suprised by some like Rich Bonilla, technique, experience and reading the dog can make up for speed.


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

Matt Grosch said:


> Im going to start and am open to helpful suggestions.


 
you are close enough, get up to Utah and train with Jason Farrish, Dwayn Baker and Josh McLeary some time on a training weekend. If we come up from Las Vegas you will have 5 or 6 experienced dogs to break in on.


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## Darryl Richey (Jul 3, 2006)

Richie is a trip to watch. Makes it to where I can't complain to much.


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## Chip Blasiole (Jun 7, 2006)

I believe you need to have a good knowledge base of working dog drives, traits, temperament, etc. so that you can accurately read a dog's behavior and understand why the dog is or isn't displaying certain behaviors in the bitework. You also need a good understanding of basic principles of operant learning so you can effectively shape/reinforce a dog's responses in the bitework. Along the same lines, timing is important in shaping the dog's behavior. Being able to elicit certain feelings in a dog is also important and probably one of the more difficult skills to learn. For example, with pups, you want to elicit confidence and drive, while knowing when to raise the expectations in the bitework so the dog will grow in confidence. The decoy needs to know what fundamentals a dog should be displaying before moving on to something more challenging. Knowing about the different sports and what the judges are looking for in each sport is important. If the dog is not being trained for sport, a different foundation might be layed. One of the biggest problems I see with new decoys is that they don't know how to suck the dog up into the sleeve or suit, so that the dog can learn a strong entry that is reinforcing to the dog and that keeps the dog from being jammed. That is not as much of an issue with ring sports where leg bites predominate. Knowing how to keep the dog and decoy safe is important. There should always be a plan with goals before a session. The decoy should be able to give an informative summary of what he sees as the dog's strengths and weaknesses so that the handler knows what to work on and what is realistic to expect from the dog. There are a ton of things that make a good decoy. Read all you can and watch videos on the subject. Try to learn from knowledgable decoys. Get as much experience as possible.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> 1, Speed.
> 
> 2, Speed
> 
> ...


Jeff,

You never saw Mark Rowe decoy did you?
Dude must have gone 400lb and still challenged the dog.


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Jeff,
> 
> You never saw Mark Rowe decoy did you?
> Dude must have gone 400lb and still challenged the dog.


 
Yeh, guy had moves.


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> 1, Speed.
> 
> 2, Speed
> 
> ...


Actually speed many times makes it easier for the prey driven dog. I know of a French Ring handler betting decoys "bet you can't esquive my dog". You now why? Because if the dog was confronted it would have a problem as it wasn't brave. 

I want a decoy that builds my pup into a real fighter, ready to take on an adversary and situation. Other people want other things.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Like I said,

1, Speed

2, Speed

3, Speed

The rest is technique. What good does a slow decoy do for you in the exercises ??? Go from putzo the slow **** to a speedster and see how stupid your dog will look. I had a kid come in and do exactly that. He was 3 or 4 times as fast as the guys I was working with. Dog looked stupid on the flee, on the escort, all over the ****ing place. 

Give me speed, the rest I can teach easy enough.

I could also care less about the dog being "taught" to confront the man. They either do it or they don't, and besides, there is a "technique" to that as well. LOL


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Like I said,
> 
> 
> I could also care less about the dog being "taught" to confront the man. They either do it or they don't, and besides, there is a "technique" to that as well. LOL


You mean the technique of owning a good dog? =D>


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Like I said,
> 
> 1, Speed
> 
> ...


 
The dog needs to see it all, speed and the slower sly experience to make the total package.


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

What about teaching the dog/pup stationery leg and then moving on later to cut off leg? If the technique is ingrained there won't be many times a decoy can esquive the dog. Many people don't spend as much time as necessary on this as it requires dragging the dog in and it's much funner to watch your dog run down the field "free" to bite the decoy.


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## Khoi Pham (Apr 17, 2006)

Chip Blasiole said:


> I believe you need to have a good knowledge base of working dog drives, traits, temperament, etc. so that you can accurately read a dog's behavior and understand why the dog is or isn't displaying certain behaviors in the bitework. You also need a good understanding of basic principles of operant learning so you can effectively shape/reinforce a dog's responses in the bitework. Along the same lines, timing is important in shaping the dog's behavior. Being able to elicit certain feelings in a dog is also important and probably one of the more difficult skills to learn. For example, with pups, you want to elicit confidence and drive, while knowing when to raise the expectations in the bitework so the dog will grow in confidence. The decoy needs to know what fundamentals a dog should be displaying before moving on to something more challenging. Knowing about the different sports and what the judges are looking for in each sport is important. If the dog is not being trained for sport, a different foundation might be layed. One of the biggest problems I see with new decoys is that they don't know how to suck the dog up into the sleeve or suit, so that the dog can learn a strong entry that is reinforcing to the dog and that keeps the dog from being jammed. That is not as much of an issue with ring sports where leg bites predominate. Knowing how to keep the dog and decoy safe is important. There should always be a plan with goals before a session. The decoy should be able to give an informative summary of what he sees as the dog's strengths and weaknesses so that the handler knows what to work on and what is realistic to expect from the dog. There are a ton of things that make a good decoy. Read all you can and watch videos on the subject. Try to learn from knowledgable decoys. Get as much experience as possible.


Hey Chip, you can work my dog anytime. (-:


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

What makes a good decoy? Self-Control. The ability to resist the urge to extend your arm in hopes it makes contact with the handlers face.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Seriously, I think it comes down to a few things.

I think Jeff is right, the ability to be fast is important. A fast man can always become slow, but a slow man is a slow man...The more ability the decoy has, the better.

I also think the ability to listen to what a handler wants. And the ability to back off when they do not want your advice.

and the ability to interact with the dog that brings out the best in the dog.

And having some thick skin.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Without speed you basically have nothing, the dogs are not tested in their skills in the exercises.

All the rest can be taught to some degree, providing the new decoy doesn't get a swollen head. :-D


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## Toran Scott (Mar 27, 2009)

I really like this thread and for the most part agree with what everyone has said. I've only been doing decoy/helper work for about five years so I'm still a relative newbie but I am suprised that nobody has mentioned "feel" yet. I know that it is a subjective term and probably similar to what some have called technique but I think its a bit different. There are decoys out there that posses technique, knowledge of drives, speed, etc. but being able to put it all together imo requires feel. It is kind of like Lebron James... there are guys taller, faster, that can jump higher, that know the game better, etc. but Lebron posesses a "feel" for the game that allows him to dominate. He can put together the athletic ability, the coordination, the knowledge and he has the intuition to make it happen (ie, when to drive to the hole, when to pull up and shoot, and occasionally when to dish to a teamate O). That to me is what makes a good decoy. They have the athletic ability, the technique, the ability to read the dog but most importantly the ability to put it all together in the blink of an eye. I personally dont think this can be taught but only developed. I am haven't been at this very long so I could be way off but feel seems to be the most important thing I would be looking at. Now if we are talking strictly a trial decoy I would probably want the bigger, faster, stronger decoy working over the decoy with better feel... well probably. But on my day in day out decoy who will help me train and get trial ready I want the guy with feel, now don't get me wrong I still want them as fast and big as possible but fast and big alone usually isn't enough. Just my two cents... 
Toran


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## Lisa Geller (Mar 29, 2007)

Somebody already said it, I think

*Good dogs make good decoys* -- 

and it helps to have tons of archives of video from great decoys!:-$


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Fore trial someone who is safe, tests the dog, works the first dog like the 50th, like 100th dog, fast.


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## jack van strien (Apr 9, 2009)

I think it depends on what the decoy needs to do,a trial decoy needs to work all of the dogs the same way,he is there to test the dogs.On a higher level it is more or less how much the dog can take.I used to know a decoy (RIP) who could chase a dog with his eyes alone,he was not a very good helper to get young dogs started.A decoy who helps you to form a young dog must be able to read a dog and never try to see how much the dog can take but how much the dog needs.I like the exercises to be short,if the dog does well he only gets that one and it keeps him frustrated and looking for more,next time my friend.I have worked my own dog when our decoy had an injury and he had no problem digging into me whatsoever.Some decoys are great with pups for up to six months,but when the pain starts many will decline for the honor.


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## Shane Carter (May 25, 2008)

Jeff, I can agree with you on this to a point. I know that speed can kill an off breed dog when tey are not used to it at all. i have even seen it take tons of points away from malis. I will say this to speed though. many times speed in an exercise comes from the repetitions put in on that exercise. 
To use Toran's example of basketball ( I will use a player from my beloved but lowly Knicks, I hate Isiah Thomas as a coach and GM) Nate Robinson he is one of the shortest players in the NBA but he is one of the fastest how much does that speed benefit him when trying to intimidate another player? Not much. Lebron will be a Knick next year also. YEAH LOL 
When shooting a basketball you can practice form without a ball and even shoot a basketball very slowly but that practice and muscle memory doing it slow can be mimiced and increased when nescessary to shoot faster. It is the muscle memeory that seperates a good shooter from a bad shooter along with confidence. 
Look at the video where Dosta runs that dog at the Mexican Ring Champs, he did not use speed he used intimidation and pressure to do so. Was that a good dog probably not and it got proven when it came down to it. Not from speed but from the clatter stick in the hands of one of the best decoys I have ever seen. 
Being taught proper technique and practicing it over and over and over again is how you get speed at that technique. Yes it helps that some people are just faster than others but like stated before it is just part of what I think is a 5 headed animal. Speed, power, technique(being able to put pressure on a dog), desire, and knowledge. 
I think that Tim Bartlett is one of the best examples of all of these things working together that we have in the US. As far as ring work goes. I also like Jose Lopez in both Ring and Schutzhund in the US. Dosta and Melo from Mexico and Herve from France. I know that there are many more but that is just who came to mind for me right now. 

JMHO, they will most likely not be yours.
Shane/Hankdad


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

jack van strien said:


> I think it depends on what the decoy needs to do,a trial decoy needs to work all of the dogs the same way,he is there to test the dogs.On a higher level it is more or less how much the dog can take.I used to know a decoy (RIP) who could chase a dog with his eyes alone,he was not a very good helper to get young dogs started.A decoy who helps you to form a young dog must be able to read a dog and never try to see how much the dog can take but how much the dog needs.I like the exercises to be short,if the dog does well he only gets that one and it keeps him frustrated and looking for more,next time my friend.I have worked my own dog when our decoy had an injury and he had no problem digging into me whatsoever.Some decoys are great with pups for up to six months,but when the pain starts many will decline for the honor.


Jack,

Our trainer could mostly quieten a dog with his eyes alone and tihis has to do with an inner confidence that the dog respects. On the other hand the same trainer could transport himself into the weaker party when necessary, but, when the "toughie" got rough, he was "all there with his cough drops".

I'm convinced that in Schutzhund (that's what I do), the dog can work out in 1-2 seconds what he has to deal with.when he faces him in the blind. Not many helpers can claim the same of being able to read the dog so quickly.

I think decoys that you mention are few and far between on all continents. The inner strength which humans often tend to ignore is never oblivious to the dog. Thank God!!


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Shane. You are right, I don't agree with some of what you said. :-D:-D:-D

Dosta did run that dog, but what kind of pressure was that dog under, and for how long before the championships to get him to score really well ??

Not taking from Dosta, but it is a factor.

A slow decoy is not gonna take the same kind of points that a fast decoy is going to take. Ok, sure "bob" tricked the dog and ran, but because he is slow, he got three steps.

Then, "jim" goes, tricks the dog, and gets 10 steps.

"bob" WOULD have gotten some points from the dog in the escort, but the dog caught him right away, as he is too slow.

There all kinds of places a slow decoy just cannot take the points due to this weakness.

"bob" wasn't trying to jam the really fast dog, but "bob" was just to slow and the dog got jammed up and "bob" gets a ding in his book.

Speed kills, and it REALLY kills you when the dog is training on a slow decoy on a regular basis.

Here in the states we got what we got, and it is getting better. I would love to figure out how to get the speedy youngsters the Mondio bug.


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## Shane Carter (May 25, 2008)

Yes Jeff I can agree with you about speed killing. Speed and height the 2 things you can not teach. That is one of the killers in the NFL and NBA. However lets look at the 2 sports since to me decoying is the human part of the sport we choose to do. 

Bill Russel arugably the best player ever to play basketball. He was not 7ft tall he was however one of the best shot blockers and intimidaters the game has ever seen. Ask the 9 teams he beat for his 9 rings. He had desire and technique as well. He was not big on blocking the ball into the seats like so many players of today but he was into starting the fast break with the blocked ball. This took technique and timing to do. 

Jerry Rice and Steve Largent two of the best WR ever to play the game they both did not blaze up the field however it took technique and desire to be the best at what they did. Largent a lot on losing teams. Yes they both a had more than adequate speed but I think they had desire more than anything. 

Now of course you get someone with all of it together they are super special. 

I would venture to say someone with hand speed of Floyd Mayweather Jr. to move the stick super fast, the power and strength of Ray Lewis (from THE U) to not only fling the dogs around while on a bite but also to intimidate them as they come in, the foot speed of Usain Bolt to out run them, and the knowledge of the techniques that are needed to get in a dogs head like Dosta or Herve and you have yourslef the ultimate decoy.

Are we ever going to get this most likely not. However what we get is more often than not is older guys that are out of shape but have knowledge just really cannot take a dog to where it needs to be in training and to be succesful in trials. Many people have it better and that is great and I do think it shows as well. I fall victim to the first situation as well. Since my speed days are behind me.LOL 

I do agree Jeff if I could have my dog practice on someone with great speed then I would with out a doubt. I just think that it is just one of the important things that makes a good decoy. 

Shane


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

It wasn't a realistic question if you think about it. Most dog sports require more time and money than people are willing to put out.

Then you have the ring sports that each club is 40 states apart, so a decoy would have to spend even MORE of his time to travel and work dog to learn his craft. 

Then you look at the young people of today, if it takes more then 10 minutes to be great, then back to video games they go. The percentages that will stay with ring, and the expense, is really really small.

That being said, speed is the one thing I am not seeing.


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## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

Interesting that Shane sees a lot of comparisons to the NFL/NBA......the only sport I do and watch is MMA and Ive noticed all my comparisons come from that.


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## Shane Carter (May 25, 2008)

Matt i see the comparisons in MMA and Boxing as well. The give and take of a training decoy compared to the give and take of a sparring partner. The controlled violence that happenes between in MMA/Boxing and the controlled violence in dogs sports. I just chose those because they popped into my head. 

Shane 
Where do you train in PHX? Do you know me? I live in PHX.


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