# Shifting from prey to hunt drive



## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

What are some of the techniques that you use to shift the dog from prey drive to hunt drive? What things are you looking for and how are you "grooming" the dog to go to that next level, assuming it can go there? If it isn't in there, I feel you can't do much with it. Bob said in a past post, prey drive isn't hunt drive.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Howard Gaines III said:


> What are some of the techniques that you use to shift the dog from prey drive to hunt drive? What things are you looking for and how are you "grooming" the dog to go to that next level, assuming it can go there? If it isn't in there, I feel you can't do much with it. Bob said in a past post, prey drive isn't hunt drive.


Many dogs just have a prey drive. They have to see the prey to give chase. The hunt drive is the strong desire to follow a scent for miles without ever having a visual. It is the desire to find and many dogs don't have it and if they don't you won't put it there . As far as shifting gears I would think that is what is being done when laying a track for a dog. He doesn't see the prey item. IMO, things go south when people take young dogs on a leash and expect them to be experts with their nose when they have't had the opportunity to "learn"how to use it. Being able to smell a scent is not the same as "learning" a practicale application of what to do with that scent.....or "learning" if they follow it far enough they will eventually find the goodies....or that this one scent is the "only" one that leads to the good stuff. There are all kinds of creatures going bump in the night. When you think you have found a nice area to lay a track for your pup, the area only looks pristine to you. That pup is going to smell every one of those *****, oppossoms, cats, mice, rats, dogs, foxes, deer etc etc, that came through the night before. Jerking a youg dog around on a leash is why so many have trouble developing the hunt aspect. While the novice is jerking the pup around on the end of a leash and getting frustrated, he has to remember, what he is visually seeing is not even remotely the same as that pups nose is experiencing. If you want to promote great hunting skills, take the pup to where he can be off leash, lay your tracks where you can see what is happening, turn the pup loose, and sit your ass in a chair and observe while he learns to use his nose and assimilate the info coming in and you learn about air currents and how to possibly lay a better track. Once the dog understands what how to use his nose is when you train him how to do it not so naturaly for a specific purpose.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Here is an after thought and and example. Picture 30 hogs foraging in an area about 1/2 the size of a football field. It ia a moderately large area, they are tearing up the ground and milling around leaving scent everywhere. They whole field reeks with scent. How do you teach your dog to figure that mess out and find out where the hogs went?? You don't. You put the pup in there and get you a cup of coffee and watch that pup. He will mill around simply because there is scent coming from everywere. He will cast around in bigger circles as he works and learns as his brain is processing info the whole time. After a while he will be casting in circles outside the foraging area and he is going to find one or two things. If the hogs came and left on the same trail, there will be one track. If they came in one way and left on another, there will be two tracks and that dog can usually tell which is which. Tracking is very natural to many dogs. People, that think they can teach a dog how to use his nose are "barking up the wrong tree". Let the dog learn the natural stuff on his own and once learned, take that and shape it. Here is the problem, one, the dogs never have the opportunity to learn on their own and two, trainers have to train.


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Many dogs just have a prey drive. They have to see the prey to give chase. The hunt drive is the strong desire to follow a scent for miles without ever having a visual. It is the desire to find and many dogs don't have it and if they don't you won't put it there .


Or...in terms of air scenting dogs, expect them to hunt for long periods with NO scent or track to follow to keep them interested, yet still be driven to find what they are looking for.


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

Using an object the dog really likes (i.e., a tug, kong) build anticipation for it, and throw it into a cluttered area (i.e., an un-neatly stacked woodpile, pile of straw), where the dog must navigate around/over/through the obstacles to locate the object. You could cast the object in a field of tall grass, while holding the dog, spin it around once or twice to disorient before releasing it to hunt, like in this video. Out of the dog's vision, bury a scent article near a walking trail, hang the object from a tree limb, make a game of locating a hidden person.


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

I am talking air scenting here, not tracking.

We start with dogs in the kind of drive your dogs are often in for a bite on a suite/sleeve while the decoy runs away, vs the way that Daryl has shown in his vid/description.

Starting with runaways (victim with reward toy/rag/tug) where the dog doesn't even have to use it's nose and progressing to the dog having to use it's nose and delays between victim hiding and searching.

Longer searches and cold starts are done as the dog matures in age and focus, never being afraid to take steps backwards to keep the dog stoked and in high drive while searching.

Like Don has said it is cool to see the dogs problem solve on their own once they know what they are looking for. (this should be very early on)

We want the search reward to be THE BEST thing that the dog does gets in his/her life. No ob reward, play time fetching, other sports, or anything should top it. 

Obviously some dogs will not have even the prey drive to start with and will be washed and some will have the prey drive, but will lack intensity on the hunt. Sometimes this could be due to a lack of hunt drive, but it could also be a trainning issue, like moving too quickly through progressions or overtraining. 

We start with pups or young dogs in our program. 

I find the relationship between prey and hunt very interesting and I am still learning and forming opinions as I see more dogs and work with more dogs.


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

Tossing an object isn't tracking, there's no trail. IMO, It's stimulating prey, then converting it to "hunt". The dog uses what ever resources it has, be it air or ground scenting, makes no difference. The difference is the persistance level that is maintained in the dog, to earn its reward. That is "hunt", as I understand the term.


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Daryl Ehret said:


> Tossing an object isn't tracking, there's no trail. IMO, It's stimulating prey, then converting it to "hunt". The dog uses what ever resources it has, be it air or ground scenting, makes no difference. The difference is the persistance level that is maintained in the dog, to earn its reward. That is "hunt", as I understand the term.



I did not mean to suggest that tossing an object was tracking! I was not referring to your post when I said that I was talking about air scenting. I know the difference between a track leading to something and air scenting.:razz: 

I made the statement that I was talking about air scenting because I feel that the progressions you would work to develop the hunting skills of a tracking dog are different than the progressions one would use for an air scent dog. My personal experience in teaching air scent dogs to shift from prey to hunt was the topic at hand that I was referring to. I have no experience in increasing hunt drive for tracking dogs.

I agree that dogs will and should use the resources availible to them (tracks or scent cones...) to achieve their goals, but we do have specialist dogs and work them in different ways. (on leash, off leash, in a pack...and so on).


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Let the dog learn the natural stuff on his own and once learned, take that and shape it. Here is the problem, one, the dogs never have the opportunity to learn on their own and two, trainers have to train.


This is similar to how I train my live-find dogs. I choose a dog that wants the game (tugging with the helper) more than anything. If he wants it badly enough, he'll use his nose to find it. No call-outs from the helper, no helper runaways, no help from me. I just set up the situation (helper hiding in a row of barrels) and let the dog figure it out. Works pretty well for me and the type of dogs I like to work.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

In starting a new pup in trailing you can give a "victim" the dog's fav toy and have the victim run just a short way, in sight of the dog. the dog is turned loose and rewarded when it gets to the "victim".
NOW when it reaches the point of where the "victim" runs out of sight THAT'S also where you can see the hund drive kick in (If it's there).
The pup "should" then start using it's nose at the point it last saw the "victim". 
This pup is originallly working in prey by running after the "victim" it has in sight. Nothing to do with "hunt" at this point.
A hight prey pup will chase the "victim". Only a dog with hunt drive will continue to look when the "victim" is out of sight.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I will add that Don's comment about people "training a dog to use it's nose" is dead on. This is where the selection process comes in. 
Both my GSDs have great noses. My older one has hunt drive to die for. The younger one has no burning desire to hunt for a toy, etc. that he can't see. Does that mean that the older one has a better nose. No way! It just has the drives/genetic makup that allows us (humans) to control it to our advantage.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Bob, I would have to consider "hunt" more of a situation where the dog has never seen the prey yet which is more a case of shifting from "hunt" to "prey" when the object or person is located. I can't see a person being fast enough to elude a dog once the dog has a visual.

As far as air scenting and ground scenting. Most differnt venues require the dog to do a step by step track and this requires training and is tracking. Dogs track when there is little scent to follow....or for competion to see how good the trainer is. The normal way a dog will locate on good scent is to actually run the track down wind and that is trailing and is done at a run. When trailing they are air scenting. Scent is scent whether it is on the ground or in the air. The very natural tendency for a dog to trail down wind is what has to be overcome with training so the dog tracks on the ground scent in case there are clues along the track. Tracking is done at something of a walk, trailing is done at a run where I come from.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Don said;
"I can't see a person being fast enough to elude a dog once the dog has a visual."

Agree! My statement referred to teaching a new SAR dog to trail. 
The dog is turned loose when the "victim" is out of site. That's when you see it start using it's nose and hunt drive. The "victim" initially will be right past where the dog lost view of it. As the dog's ability increases the "victim" will be given more time before the release and will start hiding. They still aren't going to uotrun an off lead search dog obviously.
Just one of many was to train search work. 
With the small terriers we obviously will run across many different scents. It's the dog's job/instincts that pick out the hot track and direction. Way cool to sit back and watch. 
As you say "scent is scent" to a dog and the good ones will use ground, air, etc to find the victim. 
To quote David 
"Watching a dog do scent work is about the most fun you can have with your pants on." :-o 
Then there's FST sport tracking. Booring! :lol:


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

The dog's willingness to STAY with it overrides the desire to move objects. My Lab was taught to work tide shifts for Brant and other waterfowl. She knew how to stay with it until the bird was found. I don't think hunt drive is something you can train, rather it is the inner "burning" that makes the dog what it is...


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

For the dogs we train, we utilize the visual runaways like Bob was talking about and when the dog is doing well, we build on that. 

The person runs from the dog, and drops behind something, then crawls away to another spot (the dog does not see this part) the dog is released and when it gets to the spot they saw the person hide, they must use their nose to follow to the next point. 

When the dog is doing well with that, we then hold the dog back longer and turn a couple of times so the dog cannot fixate on the last point seen and then turn the dog loose. 

The dog must hunt at that point in the game. Works rather well. 

We also do the hunt drive exercises as far as throwing their favorite toy out and having them go find it. Lots of variations to build on there. 

All I have to do is say "where's your ball?" and my dogs instantly start running and looking for their toy and don't quit til they find it.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Ok, I see what Bob and Carole are getting at. It is more of an exercise for training focus rather than using the nose I am guessing. If that is it it is making more sense to me because I just have trouble thinking any dog can't smell a person that has been there recently....and be able to find them.
Another phase of "hunt" that I simply can't get a grasp on is blood trailing. I would think that any dog that has had raw meat would take to it like a duck to water. Blood has a very strong smell....especially when dry. The only challenge I can see is how the dog let's the handler know he has found it.
Or am I missing something more elusive. Or is there that much difference in "guardian dogs" and "huntin dawgs"?


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Don, definately a training thing but obviously we wouldn't waste time training a pup that didn't have what we look for. 
We will se some consistancy in behaviours when we see(for example) 5,5 on Mink or 4,4 on Troll, etc but your close linebred dogs would narrow down that selection process by light years. 
You have one basic goal in mind and your dogs have more of the desired behaviours you look for because of that line breeding. 
Kudos to you for it!


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