# Who decides what we play, the dog or I?



## Bart Karmich (Jul 16, 2010)

Maybe this should be in the beginner section, but I'm having a problem with my young dog a little over 1 year old. He refuses to play what I want and tries to get me to play his game instead. For example, I want to play tug, and he won't play but wants a different toy or game. Other times he will play the thing that he refuses to play when he wants something else. He looks at me like I don't get it because he's going to tell me we're not playing that, we're going to play this.

What do you do if you want to train something like a jump or a retrieve and the dog refuses and wants something else. I mean, I know you can just get a line and force the jump or force the retrieve but what if the motivation you want is conditional on the dog doing what he wants? My dog doesn't actively resist me, but his motivation for toys is weak. He's food motivated and will do any kind of obedience (out of drive) for a scooby snack, and he'll do some jumps for food. He'll jump 1m high jump for food, but broad jump he's not going to do that for a steak; I mean not unless he can do it half-assed and get the steak.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Bart Karmich said:


> Maybe this should be in the beginner section, but I'm having a problem with my young dog a little over 1 year old. He refuses to play what I want and tries to get me to play his game instead. For example, I want to play tug, and he won't play but wants a different toy or game. Other times he will play the thing that he refuses to play when he wants something else. He looks at me like I don't get it because he's going to tell me we're not playing that, we're going to play this.
> 
> What do you do if you want to train something like a jump or a retrieve and the dog refuses and wants something else. I mean, I know you can just get a line and force the jump or force the retrieve but what if the motivation you want is conditional on the dog doing what he wants? My dog doesn't actively resist me, but his motivation for toys is weak. He's food motivated and will do any kind of obedience (out of drive) for a scooby snack, and he'll do some jumps for food. He'll jump 1m high jump for food, but broad jump he's not going to do that for a steak; I mean not unless he can do it half-assed and get the steak.


Bummer I don't know my dog keeps digging up my horse shoe stakes and carrying them around its a bitch in the winter they stick to his lips and tongue
I wish he would like playing with a ball


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Mike I guess he isn't suffering from an iron difficiancy :twisted:


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Bart Karmich said:


> What do you do if you want to train something like a jump or a retrieve and the dog refuses and wants something else. I mean, I know you can just get a line and force the jump or force the retrieve but what if the motivation you want is conditional on the dog doing what he wants? My dog doesn't actively resist me, but his motivation for toys is weak. He's food motivated and will do any kind of obedience (out of drive) for a scooby snack, and he'll do some jumps for food. He'll jump 1m high jump for food, but broad jump he's not going to do that for a steak; I mean not unless he can do it half-assed and get the steak.


One of my rescue dogs is low on toy motivation - they frighten him but high on food motivation. He also loves praise and to play with me without toys. 

With agility with him I dont bother with toys I just use food and lots of praise. With the broad jump maybe start off with one plank and build on it. Do you do free shaping exercises at all to get the dog experimenting - that understanding can work really well for things like retrieves. I find my young dogs love this and become quite motivated to try. 

I would also build excitement so always expect a motivated response before a reward is given. But start off in very small steps, dont try anything too complicated. Dont train for too long a period untill you start building value in what you are doing. It is easy to over do a young dog. BuIlding motivation and value for training is what I usually concentrate on first up. I try and set my dog up each time so a motivated response is what I get and reward for, even if it is somthing very small.


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## Kellie Wolverton (Jan 16, 2009)

Bart Karmich said:


> Maybe this should be in the beginner section, but I'm having a problem with my young dog a little over 1 year old. He refuses to play what I want and tries to get me to play his game instead. For example, I want to play tug, and he won't play but wants a different toy or game. Other times he will play the thing that he refuses to play when he wants something else. He looks at me like I don't get it because he's going to tell me we're not playing that, we're going to play this.


Maybe restrict his access to any and all toys.:mrgreen:
That way he won't have the opportunity to chose something else... all the good things come from you and on your terms 

Good luck


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Any way we can get a video of you playing with the dog ? I have a feeling you are the problem more than the dog. If you make it suck, then the dog is going to try to do something else. 

Put the dog in his harness, back tie him to a chain link fence so there is a little give, and put the tug on a line and tease him up and then allow him to get a bite. DO NOT TRY AND RIP IT OUT OF HIS MOUTH. 

Let him punk you instead of what I read last time, which is you punking the dog.


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Any way we can get a video of you playing with the dog ? I have a feeling you are the problem more than the dog. If you make it suck, then the dog is going to try to do something else.
> 
> Put the dog in his harness, back tie him to a chain link fence so there is a little give, and put the tug on a line and tease him up and then allow him to get a bite. DO NOT TRY AND RIP IT OUT OF HIS MOUTH.
> 
> Let him punk you instead of what I read last time, which is you punking the dog.


Yes exactly. I find building tug drive can be a bit of an art. Lots of give, you need to really feel what is happening between you the tug and the dog, no ripping out of mouth!. You can control it so the dog is getting maximum value, it then becomes fun. My BC flies into the tug because he knows it is going to be a full on game between him and me. If I ripped it out of his mouth he would soon get pissed off. I also occassionally throw it and he loves pouncing on it, I say "are you ready, ready" and he goes into overdrive.


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## Mara Jessup (Sep 7, 2010)

Bart Karmich said:


> Maybe this should be in the beginner section, but I'm having a problem with my young dog a little over 1 year old. He refuses to play what I want and tries to get me to play his game instead. For example, I want to play tug, and he won't play but wants a different toy or game. Other times he will play the thing that he refuses to play when he wants something else. He looks at me like I don't get it because he's going to tell me we're not playing that, we're going to play this.
> 
> What do you do if you want to train something like a jump or a retrieve and the dog refuses and wants something else. I mean, I know you can just get a line and force the jump or force the retrieve but what if the motivation you want is conditional on the dog doing what he wants? My dog doesn't actively resist me, but his motivation for toys is weak. He's food motivated and will do any kind of obedience (out of drive) for a scooby snack, and he'll do some jumps for food. He'll jump 1m high jump for food, but broad jump he's not going to do that for a steak; I mean not unless he can do it half-assed and get the steak.


 This sounds like you've got some handler error going on.

The dog kind of determines what he is motivated by. I mean, what if someone offered you a flock of chickens in exchange for a days of work? You'd probably say, "huh? forget it - I don't need chickens" but then they went on to convince you that having your own flock of chickens was the way to go. Fresh eggs, fresh meat, greater self-sufficiency, etc, etc. Maybe they give you a couple of eggs so you can see how good they are. They keep talking about how simple chickens are to care for and how great they are. By the end of a couple weeks, you're a bit more interested. You get a few more eggs and boy are they good. Before you know it you're ready to exchange a days work for that flock of chickens. Who'd have thunk it? 

It's your job to show your dog how cool the reward i and build desire for whatever you want to play with. Very short, very motivational session. Get creative - if he likes ball and you want to tug, get a ball on a string and start with that. Control all the toys - put them up when you're not working with them so he can't self satisfy with them. 

If he can do and likes doing simple jumps, just do those for a while. Keep the sessions very short and highly motivational. Gradually up the requirements and he'll probably take them in stride. He's only a year old - have fun with him!! Don't think it terms of refusal. He's probably not understanding what you're asking of him or you're asking too much, too soon.


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

real quick pointed sessions with a clear start and finish for the dog. You control the toys exclusively. He only plays when you decide. Always end on a good note.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Leaders lead, followers follow. If toys are out all the time, why does the dog NEED you?


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## Bart Karmich (Jul 16, 2010)

Thanks for the replies. I read them all and I am considering the advice. Just to clarify, the dog doesn't play with toys whether I leave them out or not. He's only interested in interactive play but he seems to want to choose what and will reject my ideas if they're not stimulating enough (like tossing a ball, that's a big zero). And yeah, Jeff, I did punk him once but it was an accident and I did the best I could to make up for it immediately after. I am always trying to do my best Stew Hilliard impersonation, but I screwed up that time.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

you obviously don't control his resources enuff if he even considers "rejecting" your ideas over "his", and it is also obvious he needs a lot more focus training. both relate to how he will work (or won't) for you, whether you want him to jump thru hoops or over bars.

from what i read you'd also be better off taking the advice you've gotten so far rather than considering it

and i'd be interested in hearing details of your toy games


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Bart Karmich said:


> I am always trying to do my best Stew Hilliard impersonation, but I screwed up that time.


what is Stew Hilliard impersonation?

....do you mean Stuart as a Handler, with his own dogs, or an agitator, with other peoples dogs?


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Joby Becker said:


> what is Stew Hilliard impersonation?
> 
> ....do you mean Stuart as a Handler, with his own dogs, or an agitator, with other peoples dogs?


You kill me Jody :smile:


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> You kill me Jody :smile:


B


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Jody Butler said:


> B


I was just screwin with him.


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