# Tuco's on, off, on switch



## Khoi Pham (Apr 17, 2006)

https://vimeo.com/146949605
One of the dog in my club, very go happy dog and social but will turn on in a split second to protect his master.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

thanks for sharing,,,nice


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

i saw a VERY nice dog who enjoys biting, and is very stable and controllable
.....and REALLY enjoyed watching the training session

but the statement about "protecting its master" ???
- was the master in this vid ?
- were you using this training video to illustrate that comment ?

that is always my question when someone makes this type of statement
the session filmed was clearly a training scenario, not an example of protecting its master in PP environment (real world public environment)

NOT saying the dog isn't capable by any means, and i would want to be walking with this dog if i was ever in a situation that might require the 'services' of a PPD 

just saying when i hear the term personal protection of a master (or family, etc), there seems to be a LOT of proofing required, in public areas, without visible or hidden equipment, before a dog could/should be considered safe in that environment.....and i have never seen that part of PPD training, or read about how it is done


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## Jay Quinn (Apr 1, 2012)

nice dog!

message too short my arse :/


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## Khoi Pham (Apr 17, 2006)

Hi Rick, his master/handler/owner is the guy in shorts, all of this is training of course, I just want to show that he can switch drive pretty quick after bite work, chilling out with his toy not in drive and letting me petting him and can go back to protection work in an instance, and I have no doubt that he would bite for real, he live bit me a month ago when we were working muzzle and his muzzle accidentally came off. You never know for sure in a real life situation, so I'm 99.9% confident he will protect his master when the shit hits the fan, we have tested him in strange environment, with strange decoys, from passive bite with no agitation to full blown pressure.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

its very difficult to catch a real life PPD event on film  unless you are looking to start some shit and send your dog on someone, premeditated


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

i hope no one thinks i want to see a video of a PPD in a real life situation defending its owner //LOL//

but i do have a big interest in seeing the training i would think is involved to train a PPD so it is a safe dog in a family environment in a wide variety of public places.
- if i were doing that type pf training, which i'm not, it would involve a lot of family/owner interaction and that would NOT have to include any bites
- it would be proofing to ensure the OFF switch was in full effect 99% of the time
- it would involve a whole lot of scenarios beyond the bitework in a training environment with decoys, hidden sleeves and different bitework scenarios such as a carjack, etc
- it would show that the dog would NOT light up to NONthreats, such as dumbass kids running up on the family, or dumbass strangers trying to pet the dog without permission, or any number of other real world situations that WILL happen when a dog is out with a family or its owner either in public places or on "home turf"
- it would also involve proofing that the dog did NOT engage on its own, unlike the way PSA is taught on a training field

what i think i am hearing from Koi, since his primary focus is PSA, is that if you do enough controlled biting on the field, you can count on the dog to engage when the time comes that it is needed in the real world.
- i agree with that assumption

what i feel is necessary for a dog who will turn on and aggress is the wide variety of OFF SWITCH situations, since that will be 99.999% of the situations the dog will be faced with in real life.
- the proofing situations for this training are endless, but i guess that might be boring for many PPD trainers to set up
- and that is what i have never seen in PPD training, even tho i have seen many web sites claiming to do this 

hope my perspective is clear. don't want to derail a thread showing nice bitework. was only commenting on the comment of how it related to 
'personal protection of the owner' which i don't feel was shown in this clip


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

To add to Joby's post 

Until that "real" bite happens I think it's almost an educated guess if many dogs will bite for real.

Even the street K9s are sometimes surprised when they get that first "real" bite on the street.

Doesn't make them a good or bad dog, just new at the game. 

I think the dog in Khoi's video is off to an excellent start but only time.....and flesh:twisted: will really tell the whole story.


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## Khoi Pham (Apr 17, 2006)

Yes I agree that for a PPD dog, the ability to switch from out of drive is important and so we do train a lot for that, I focus on PSA a my sport of choice, but first and foremost my dog is a protection dog then a competition dog, and no I don't have any real life video like Joby said it would be hard unless it is preemptive. I do have this video of training a surprise home invasion, not the one when the bad guy push in the door, that I do too but the dog is in drive already, this one I left the house for 30 minutes and so he just hang around with my wife and so he is totally off drive. and she really never do anything with him except feeding him once in a while if I'm out of town. https://vimeo.com/channels/176851/31343192


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

too much arm baiting  LOL, not realistic. just kidding, but true as well, should have just stuck out your gut and seen if he would try to chew a hole back to your spine..or kicked a shin bone at him and seen if he wanted to munch on that for a bit  .that would have been more real  

After all these years, I am not sure how much all in all any of the scenarios and PP stuff really matters with a lot of dogs..

have dog light up a few times on that guy in training, pretty soon he will light up on command on anyone, passive or not..does that mean he will bite? maybe maybe not...depends on the dog and his "training" (exposure)

dog bites the hell out of sleeve, suit, hidden sleeve, does muzzle work, does that mean he will bite/fight when the situation arises? who knows.

dogs really vary a LOT in their inhibitions to and propensity to knowingly biting a human for real, as well as the mental state of actually going from a display/ warning to a simple bite or fighting. There are all kings of techniques / theories to approach pushing dogs without the proclivity to do so, into the realm of doing so. and of course real life stuff can happen that can make even unlikely dogs jump into action, where training would not produce similar results.

training aside there are a couple ways I always like to get a frame of mind on the dog. Put a guy in a suit, with a dog that never saw a suit before, one who preferably never did hardly any bitework before. Of course 1st time hidden sleeve can show something as well, Or do something like above with a dog in muzzle that has never worked in muzzle (after he is conditioned to wear muzzle in normal everyday life for a bit) with a stranger / agitator who is intense in his mental "mojo" but passive in movements, or one who actually trying to fight the owner or possibly even the dog itself.. but that is just me...

there are ways to TEST a dog if needed, but these sometimes can be detrimental to long term goals. if in fact you find out things are different than what you thought they might be. dogs are all different and there are a variety of reasons / situations that may cause a dog to actually engage with a human in fighting / biting. and from a yorkie to a rottweiler many dogs will attempt to "protect" in some fashion, for those reasons, at least to their abilities, inborn / explored and trained.

I DO NOT personally need to see a lot of what Rick would really want to see, although I do agree that it is nice and great when all of those variables are where Rick wants them to be ideally, but many of those variables are ones that may or may not be highly important to some people/situations, and not a requirement in all cases.

Lots of times I read things and it seems that some people want a PP dog to be like a loaded gun with one in the chamber, that is safe enough to leave on the floor at a small childs birthday party, and let the kids play with it. When in reality you can have a loaded gun at a kids party safely without letting the kids play with it.

I personally cant think of a situation where one would need a dog to violently engage a person in real life and then be need the dog to immediately be switched off and give kids a ride on his back at the park..I wouldn't care if I had to drag the dog off personally if he just possibly saved my life...the engagement is the part of the equation that matters the most, in my mind..

I also dont agree that enough training on the field will produce a dog that will engage in the real world, PSA or not.. it depends on the dogs and the training of course.

IF I was wanting a dog to play a serious role in Protecting me, I would want a dog that had a low genetic mental hurdle to get over into tapping into the dog being "civil" IE wanting to or willing to bite/fight for real, and work my way towards making that dog as ideal as possible for my situation. A dog that will bite first and then bark after its all over..

Truth is very few people will take on a large dog that appears to want to fight them, so much of the role is actually as a deterrent .

we do all this training stuff to keep us busy, and the dogs active...among other reasons..

but you'll never really know for sure unless it happens, oh, the decoys and some owners can usually tell which dogs are the real deal throughout the work, but some dogs will surprise everyone on both ends of the spectrum, from performing to not performing.

I personally like to see a dog for myself like the last one I had, one that needed to be dialed back some, instead of needing to be pushed forward into PP type role.
I would have counted on that dog without much training at all, wrongly or rightly, who knows.

For me, a dog that is 9 months old that appears to want to dive in headfirst to a fight with a stranger that raises a shovel and "threatens" them, one who one the first sleeve bite, pops off the sleeve and grabs the bare stick arm, blasted guys in the chest and stomach in the suit in the initial bitework and one who engaged forcibly without hesitation through very adverse mental and physical pressure repeatedly, is a good candidate, whether or not everything looked really pretty at first.

I usually like to test the dogs in some fashion before I train them though, if they are for me..I have a benchmark I like to see and will ship out accordingly. Whether or not it means much in the big scope, or in real life, I cannot say...

two things I always say right or wrong, if the dog will bite me, its a good chance it will bite someone else, and of course...

A dog that doesn't stand and fight for its own self, is not one I would depend on to fight for me. And that folks is NOT a trainable trait.

sorry Khoi,,, didnt mean to go off track, just rambling again.


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## Khoi Pham (Apr 17, 2006)

LOl yes but we have to be safe, that hidden sleeve is his only protection so of course he will have to draw the dog to it. And yes I agree that some dogs can look really good in training but will not bite for real. I also believe that a protection dog have to be a social stable dog, other wise I can't take him anywhere I go, what good is a protection dog if you have to kennel him or keep him on a tight leash and always worry about accidental bites, and yes that is exactly my situation long ago, I'm done with that, no fun having a protection dog and you are always under stress. So this is why I socialized my dogs, but when they are too friendly then they might not bite or turn on fast enough when not in drive, so this is why I do a lot of bite training when they are not in drive. The video is just to show that how the dog can switch drive.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Khoi Pham said:


> LOl yes but we have to be safe, that hidden sleeve is his only protection so of course he will have to draw the dog to it. And yes I agree that some dogs can look really good in training but will not bite for real. I also believe that a protection dog have to be a social stable dog, other wise I can't take him anywhere I go, what good is a protection dog if you have to kennel him or keep him on a tight leash and always worry about accidental bites, and yes that is exactly my situation long ago, I'm done with that, no fun having a protection dog and you are always under stress. So this is why I socialized my dogs, but when they are too friendly then they might not bite or turn on fast enough when not in drive, so this is why I do a lot of bite training when they are not in drive. The video is just to show that how the dog can switch drive.


oh yes all good stuff Khoi, just rambling...
for stuff like this I like the muzzle and a stranger in a pair of shorts and a tee shirt, who is passive at first, and maybe fires the gun after the dog engages, or sometimes holding a garbage can lid or other thing to dissuade dog to bite for a little bit and see what happens then. this will show a shift in drive and intent as well, more clearly than hidden sleeve bite with gunfire and overt "decoy" moves...

again just talking, not in any way shape or form knocking what you are doing. Ive done plenty of similar things many many times, we all do, or should be in my mind


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## Khoi Pham (Apr 17, 2006)

Yeah there are always stuff to train and it's endless, but some dogs can go through something they haven't seen before without hesitation the first time, some takes a few times, those that can go through stuff the first time without hesitation are the one that most likely will do their job when shit hits the fan.


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## Marcel Winter (Mar 29, 2013)

Nice training and a good dog thanks for sharing.

Always fun to watch..


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## Jeffrey Eggenberger (Jan 3, 2013)

My ex wife's crack head bf ran from a k9 cop. The dog put him in the hospital. Trust me these dogs training is for real!!


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## Catherine Gervin (Mar 12, 2012)

Jeffrey Eggenberger said:


> My ex wife's crack head bf ran from a k9 cop. The dog put him in the hospital. Trust me these dogs training is for real!!


there's a great picture on Pinterest of a guy with his bare calf in the mouth of a K9, whose handler seems fairly well preoccupied with details elsewhere, and the caption is about why you shouldn't kick a Police dog...those dogs are serious about their jobs or they don't remain doing them.


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