# Tail Chaising



## Julia Norton VMD (Sep 11, 2008)

Hi everybody. I'm new here and need advice. Two months ago I got my first shepherd at 12 weeks old. The breeder told me she had a great temperament but the pup seemed a little reluctant to approach us. She warmed up and we took her home. She is currently in obed/tracking and we hope to do schutzhund. A few weeks later she began tail chasing primarily in the yard. She is not out in the yard much, but in the house or crate. I have 3 kids and other dogs she gets lots of attention and exercise. We have tried exercise, hot sauce and now are trying clomicalm. We have been told this often gets worse. She will tail chase/circle most of the time she is in the yard unless actively distracted by the other dogs. We have a middle aged rottie that we showed extensively and several geriatric terriers. They are a good group, have never had a fight although the terriers are snarky when stepped on. Now I try to avoid putting her out(1/2 acre fenced) and may need long term meds. She improves a little w exercise but relapses if not kept tired. I have been told this is a form of OCD in the breed. We have also had nerve issues w other dogs although it has improved w socialization. Our first few classes she was fearful, barking, hair up, afraid of all the other dogs. She now goes up to other dogs but her hair goes up. I am worried this could lead to fear aggression as she gets older. Is this typical of shepherds? I am used to rotties. She is aloof but stable w people in public but when walking by ourselves she seems more on and anxious. Quick to bark at strange things, hair goes up but will go up, check it out and does recover quickly. Don't know if her nerves will improve w age. She is all working lines, half west and half east German. Not sure if she is a good candidate for schutzhund and as personal protection-I am a veterinarian in the inner city and was planning on bringing her to work. However the fearful barking at strange dogs may make that a problem. She is great w my kids and they would be in tears if we returned her but I don't know if she is a good fit. One last question-is it difficult to find a shepherd that is stable, w a strong temperament for work but still good w older kids?


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Puppies often go through weird nervy fear periods that sometimes are of no consequence when they are adults, but sometimes they are are. I likewise wish to bring at least one of my dogs to the clinic when I'm out in practice in a few years. *gulp!* So I understand what you mean about wanting to bring her with you. Remember, she doesn't need to be best friends with every dog that comes into the hospital, just neutral to them.

With the tail chasing and spinning, I would suspect that her mental exercise needs to increase as well as physical instead or in addition to the Clomicalm. It seems to me that putting a working pup on Clomicalm defeats the purpose of having a working pup, but that's just me and I'm just a young'en still. :smile::smile: One reason I decided a few years back to not go the boarded veterinary behaviorist route as it seems many are too quick to reach for the prescription instead of behavior modification for what the dog was designed for, but anywho...remember, a little bit of "OCD" (I think this is WAAAAY over diagnosed, JMHO) in a working dog is a good thing and you probably just need to channel those drives into something more productive. Whether she's not going to work out is something that you'll have to figure out and the weird nervy things would put me off personally, but they may work themselves out, maybe not.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> ... With the tail chasing and spinning, I would suspect that her mental exercise needs to increase as well as physical instead or in addition to the Clomicalm.


Me too.

OCD needs to be addressed with everything you have immediately. It will not go away on its own.

I'd start a string of short, upbeat marker sessions throughout every day on top of keeping the dog physically tired, and get this habit interrupted.

Having seen OCD in dogs to the point of physical self-destruction (with ALD, flank-sucking, and tail-chasing), my first reaction is to do everything you possibly can to break that cycle and re-channel the frustrated energy.


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## Alyssa Myracle (Aug 4, 2008)

You have to find a way to break this cycle in the dog's mind, before it becomes permenantly ingrained in it's personality.

The dog is young, and with good training and some maturity, will probably turn out just fine.

Medication has side-effects, health risks, and doesn't fix what is wrong with the dog, it just masks the problem to a level acceptable to you as an owner. You may even find yourself creating more problems than you fix.

The recommendations thus far are fantastic.
I wanted to add one thing, though.

You need to get your dog a very special toy. Something unlike anything else it has seen thus far.
It only belongs to this dog. Keep it on top of the fridge and never let your dog have free access to it.

You want your dog to fall in love with this toy, become obsessed with this toy, to the exclusion of everything else in the world.

When you see the dog go into the "spin cycle", out comes the toy.
It will help the dog transition from the mindset that tells him to spin, to the mindset of interacting with you and his absolute favorite toy.

The ideal result is that you condition the dog to seek you out when the light goes off in his head that says "must kill tail". It takes time and patience, but in the end, it is much better for all involved than medication.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

This exactly fits with "reinforce an incompatible activity," part of OCD work.

Increase mental and physical exercise, reduce stress (of the kind that triggers it), remove reinforcement of the OCD behavior, reinforce incompatible behavior, etc. 

Good point.


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## Julia Norton VMD (Sep 11, 2008)

Thanks for the suggestions. We have been trying lots of activity/exercise but problems just seem to rebound when activity is reduced, as this weelk when I got sick. Kids/husband can only help so much. Clomicalm was rec to help break the cycle for a few months and then hopefully wean off. I am concerned because I have seen some severe cases incl one I had to amputate the tail after it was mangled beyond recognition. I agree that outlets help but not in all cases. That would be like suggesting that a human w OCD will get better if they take up jogging. Many of these cases prob involve brain chemical levels and running may stabilize them but is not a complete cure. She is still mild at this point which is why we are trying to stop it early.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Julia,

Got a treadmill? I picked up a $10 treadmill and it saved my behind for a similar type dog. Your baby is too young for serious exercise (as I'm sure you already know) but he can get used to walking on it so he is ready to run when his joints are fully developed.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Julia Norton VMD said:


> She is still mild at this point which is why we are trying to stop it early.


I agree 100%, and I would use every tool I had. I can say that when I helped with a couple of dogs with OCD that was becoming becoming entrenched, it took a lot of management for many weeks, and learning new things for the owners and me, too, including puzzles and thought-requiring games for the dogs. 

BTW, tail-chasing is most common in herders and terriers, and particularly (I've read) GSDs and BTs.


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## Domenic Spina (Sep 13, 2008)

Hi,my young GSD use to do that also when he was young and I was told by a couple very experianced trainers and an SV Judge to stop the dog from doing it even if it means a correction at that young age.Every time you see the dog start to do it you must stop the dog immediately and also lots of stimulation seems to help.This could be that the pup is a little immature and it could also be a bit of nerves.Now adays my boy might do it in play if he is really bored and if we have'nt done anything(exercise,training)recently.I know it could be fraustrating but I chose to work through it and I did NOT regret it.Good luck with your pup.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Julia Norton VMD said:


> Thanks for the suggestions. We have been trying lots of activity/exercise but problems just seem to rebound when activity is reduced, as this weelk when I got sick. Kids/husband can only help so much. Clomicalm was rec to help break the cycle for a few months and then hopefully wean off. I am concerned because I have seen some severe cases incl one I had to amputate the tail after it was mangled beyond recognition. I agree that outlets help but not in all cases. That would be like suggesting that a human w OCD will get better if they take up jogging. Many of these cases prob involve brain chemical levels and running may stabilize them but is not a complete cure. She is still mild at this point which is why we are trying to stop it early.


There's actually very good evidence that humans, especially children with ADHD or adults with depression or other anxiety disorders including OCD, do better with more exercise and free play, particularly outdoors out in nature. I don't think that's anything new or novel myself. And I respectfully disagree with the veterinary behaviorists on VIN (and many psychiatrists) who reach for the prescription pad for everything that the client thinks is OCD when it's actually just displacement behavior stemming from a dog (or person) predisposed to be high drive but not having an outlet. I'm sure much of it is heritable and there's probably some kind of evolutionary advantage to it (nature loves heterozygosity in her populations afterall) along with our selecting for it. Remember, in a working dog, OCD-ish behaviors are highly desireable! :smile: This is why we don't train beagles to herd sheep or shih tzus to be police dogs. They are too :-\" instead of too :twisted: intense.

So we should partially expect there to be displacement behaviors that are "problematic" (to us, not necessarily to the dog) if they are not channeled. Honestly, if the dog isn't working out for you guys, it's not working out. When you get a working lines dog, the high drive (both good and "bad" parts) is what you get when you sign up for one, like getting a performance sports car versus a little Kia commuter car. Absolutely no disrespect, but if I had to put a working puppy on Clomicalm to make it work out, either something is not working on my side or something's not working on the pup's side and I'd get a different dog. Would a working lines Rottie be a better choice maybe? 

Or I second the treadmill idea! Or teach the pup to play ball like others have suggested. Even just 2-3 quick 2-3 minute mini obedience sessions working on clicker/marker training will help take the edge off too.
I had a client (I do behavior consultations) who had a 4 year old border collie who would obsessively bounce up and down on the black and white checkerboard tile in their kitchen. They ran 7-10 miles a day with the dog, so the exercise certainly helped, but they started agility and flyball with it and it pretty much went away without meds. The mental exercise is as important as the physical. :smile:


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## Julia Norton VMD (Sep 11, 2008)

I think we're going to stop the clomicalm at this point. But yes we are ball playing, tug , walks etc. I only work 2 days a week so confinement is minimal. Interestingly she does not perform the behavior in her crate but does it freq in our large fenced area. This is not just a stone yard but trees/grass/groundhogs so not a sterile area. She is also not out for more than about 15 min. We're going to a weekend training seminar and I am going to see what the trainer thinks w respect to nerves and this issue. Some of the people comong are involved in schutzhund so will see what their thoughts are. If the dog were otherwise perfect it would be different(I know perfect doesn't exist). However I am still concerned re the barking and nervy hackling at other dogs or at night. Since my rottie is getting into middle years my plan was the next pup would be going to work w me. The 2 times I took her to work I placed her in a quiet area(cat area) but when anyone walked by the room w a dog she would bark and hackle up. She was obviously very stressed so this may not be a good environment for her. This clinic is in the city near very rough areas but I love the staff and diversity of cases and clients. Like working ES every day(which is my background). However my family does not want me going there w/out a solid dog and a gun is not a good option because of the kids. My rottie is very sound, hangs behind the desk and has been a good psychological deterrant when iffy people have drifted into the office. She is not bite trained but when stared down she has growled and held her ground. So I do agree we need to assess if this pup is a good fit.


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## David Scholes (Jul 12, 2008)

Julia Norton VMD said:


> ... However my family does not want me going there w/out a solid dog and a gun is not a good option because of the kids. ...


I assume you are referring to your own kids.

I've raised 4 kids and NEVER had a problem with them getting into our unlocked easily available guns and ammo and they would be horrified to let a friend near them. They always ask permission and wanted supervision when they needed it. This was EASY to teach. Just take the kids out to a safe place to shoot. I've done it at 2 or 3 years of age... as soon as they show any interest in a gun. I place a few milk jugs with water and a smiley face drawn on them out about 30 yards and shoot them with a high power rifle, hand guns etc. I then explain what guns do to people and that you always treat it like it's loaded and point away from people. As soon as they are able to hold the gun up I show them how to shoot under strict supervision.

However, if you are not comfortable with a gun, get that way or you are better off without one IMO.


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## Julia Norton VMD (Sep 11, 2008)

Hi everybody. Thanks for all the feedback. Well we had a good weekend. She played like crazy w a friends lab pup and Sun. we went to an obed seminar given by a very successful schutzhund competitor. Puppy was well behaved both w people and other dogs excluding a few barks. The trainer felt we prob went through a more pronounced fear period w other dogs since we acquired her around 12 wks. Since she has improved a lot she did not seem concerned that we had a terrible problem. With respect to clomicalm she has seen it used on successful schutzhund dogs so she wasn't adamantly against it. However since she is calm in the car, crate etc it was brought up that it may not be OCD as much as attention seeking behavior. She primarily does it around the other dogs in the yard when they are not playing w her. Perhaps out of frustration. We are trying a couple of things. It has been diff to walk her enough to truly tire her out. She had never seemed that interested in her orbee ball but I took it outside and suddenly retrieving kicked in. Today she is very calm w little interest in her tail. Also I am not in agony from trying to run w her. It's diff to get in shape in a week. Needless to say we are both happier. By the way people at the seminar liked the pup and I think one breeder really wanted to take her home.


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## Domenic Spina (Sep 13, 2008)

Hi Julia,Im glad all seems to be working out.I truely beleive that you ,just like myself WILL be OK and the puppy will grow out of this on her own.I do realize that it can be fraustrating but as long as you give enough exercise and stimulation you are going to be good.Good luck to you and your family


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I would seriously consider sending the dog back, and getting a new breeder. I have had this, and the dogs are not sound in the head.

When you spend your money on a computer and it doesn't work right, you get your money back, or a replacement. Dog people tend to let breeders off the hook way too often.

Get one that works, and send this one back. Not easy now, but much easier in the long run.


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