# mouth breathers



## steve davis

i've always had issues with my dogs grip, he's always had a full grip on his initial bites but after he begins to tire, his grips get worse. i never realized it but when i started working with another trainer he said to me that it wasnt a nerve issue, he's a mouth breather. when he bites full, he doesnt breathe. so basicly saying he doesnt know how to breathe from his nose. he told me we would start some tracking to get him used to useing his nose more often and said it would help as he had a couple dogs in the past with the same issues and was fixed by tracking. im wondering if any of you guys/gals have ever experienced any issues like this and how you may have fixed them. regards, steve


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## David Frost

If it's not a stamina issue caused by too much bite work and it's not a blockage I'd go with the nerve issue. I've worked literally thousands of dogs in bite work and have never had that issue that it wasn't a malady of some sort, or nerve issue.

DFrost


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## Don Turnipseed

I think you run into the problem with some bulldogs


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## Nicole Stark

That's for sure stenotic nares and elongate soft pallets are certainly an issue with them. Sometimes the build of the dog is the problem, others poor conditioning, sometimes there's a heart problem or other underlying health issue that contributes to the dog getting fatigued quickly. 

The fact that it's always been an issue leads me to believe it's about something else more obvious.


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## Maren Bell Jones

Does he do the same thing if you're doing water retrieve games with no pressure? If you can hear him wheezing and breathing hard just through his mouth as he swims back with a large toy, you may have your answer.


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## Candy Eggert

David Frost said:


> If it's not a stamina issue caused by too much bite work and it's not a blockage I'd go with the nerve issue. I've worked literally thousands of dogs in bite work and have never had that issue that it wasn't a malady of some sort, or nerve issue.
> 
> DFrost


I agree with David. This tale has been passed around in the SchH circles for so long, it's taken on a life of it's own. You gotta laugh (not at you Steve) when you hear some big name trainer saying it and then all the others follow along without even asking why? It earns the B.S. award from me ;-)


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## will fernandez

You should be the best judge of your dogs bite.

Does this happen on the first bite, the fifth or the tenth?

Does your dog have a nerve problem? Is he easily winded all the time? 

You have to be honest with yourself. Do you really believe it is a physical problem or is someone just telling you what you want to hear.


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## David Frost

Don Turnipseed said:


> I think you run into the problem with some bulldogs


You could well be right. Sorry didn't think of that. I've never had that problem with Rotts, but I've never worked with bull dogs.


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## Christopher Smith

I have seen dogs that don't breath from their nose while biting and two that didn't breath at all when they were biting. The non breathers we really exciting because they would pass out. 

I had a Rott that had problems breathing from his nose and a friend of mine showed me how to help it by closing the dogs lips around the sleeve, with my hands, so he was forced to breath from his nose. I held the dogs lips closed and after about 30 seconds of this snot shot from the dogs nose and he started to breath from his nose. I had to this every session for a couple of months and less frequently as time went on. 

It's ironic to me that some people think that every dog that doesn't bite full has a nerve issue and dogs that bite full have good nerves. Since I think that most people agree that most full grips are genetic , why can't we agree that a shallow bite may simply be genetic in some cases and not bad nerves?


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## Candy Eggert

Christopher Smith said:


> It's ironic to me that some people think that every dog that doesn't bite full has a nerve issue and dogs that bite full have good nerves. Since I think that most people agree that most full grips are genetic , why can't we agree that a shallow bite may simply be genetic in some cases and not bad nerves?


Good valid/point Chris. Now that you put that way I'll have to rethink my "A.K." indoctrination :lol:

While watching bitework do you judge a dog by the quality of his grips? Would you dismiss a dog as a potential "contender" (competiton, breeding, etc) if he had shallow grips? I think it's natural to assume that most people in sports do and place a higher emphasis on a dog that grips fulll. Personally I prefer a dog that brings it, loves the fight and is full of fire. Full grips or not. If he's asleep while gripping...well we won't go there!


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## Molly Graf

I agree with Christopher - some dogs have a "genetic" or natural full grip - they just bite full, every time, from the first grip to the last. Some of these want to be "fuller" and will regrip trying to be fuller - others (more desireable for sport at least) are naturally full, and calm on the grip, while gripping hard. If they do this, they must breathe from their nose. 
Other dogs just don't care if they are full or 3/4, or even 1/2 - their grip is also genetic IMO, just not as desireable (for sport at least) natural gripping behavior. I wouldn't call it a nerve problem, unless there is growling, chewing, loosening, or other obvious nerve issues while the dog is on the grip.

I have little personal experience with bulldogs, but have heard that they do have some issues breathing from their nose, so grips may not be 100% "full" to allow them to breathe from their mouth during grips. And if they do grip full, they may fatigue quickly due to lack of oxygen. Never have seen a dog that passed out due to not breathing at all - that would be something to see! Is that a rottie "thing"? 

molly


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## James Lechernich

The only bulldogs I've seen with breathing problems, on or off the bite, are Johnson(bully) type ABs. Their muzzle structure just isn't functional.


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## Bob Scott

Ditto with Don!
I've seen bulldogs work on a spring pole and RARELY do it with a deep grip for any length of time. It's just not inducive to good breathing. Bulldogs are gripping dogs. That short muzzel is built to grip but sucks for breathing. Look at what the show breeders have done to MOST of the short nosed dogs when they exagerate that. They can hardly breath on a good day. Shallow grips allow better breathing for these breeds. 
Most all the bully breeds I've seen in bite sport have to be taught a deep grip in sport work.
A fault? Nope! They need to breath to do what they do best and a sleeve or suit isn't naturally a part of that.


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## Christopher Smith

Candy Eggert said:


> Good valid/point Chris. Now that you put that way I'll have to rethink my "A.K." indoctrination :lol:
> 
> While watching bitework do you judge a dog by the quality of his grips? Would you dismiss a dog as a potential "contender" (competiton, breeding, etc) if he had shallow grips? I think it's natural to assume that most people in sports do and place a higher emphasis on a dog that grips fulll. Personally I prefer a dog that brings it, loves the fight and is full of fire. Full grips or not. If he's asleep while gripping...well we won't go there!


Personally, I don't look at one trait when the dog is biting, I try my best to look at the big picture. Is he really biting or just "griping"? What is the body posture? What's the guarding like? How does he change when the handler comes into the picture? What are the entries like? 

It's really simple and comforting for some people to make things black and white. 1=1=2, less than full grips= POS nerves, dog wins trials= "not real".........


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## Nicole Stark

Bob Scott said:


> That short muzzel is built to grip but sucks for breathing.


Don't let that muzzle length fool you guys. The shortest muzzled dog (2") I ever had was without question the best breather out of the 5 I had. That and she was a very high energy dog. Her muzzle was short but lacked overall mass. The bitch I got now whose got a 16+" in circumference and short muzzle, breaths very clean and just like the other has excellent stamina for a dog her size although she's considerably thicker than my last bitch.

Much to my surprise, I've seen that same kind of raspy breathing in a Mal so it's not just limited to bulldogs. Part of their problem is their build does not seem to be all that conducive to dissipating heat. That short muzzled bitch of mine was also real lean and very deep chested (36" round, at 24" tall). She also wasn't all that big, maybe 90 lbs which for her breed was considered to be at the low end of the established minimum stated within the breed standard.

IMO, length certainly suggests that breathing problems would go hand in hand but it's not a given. With the exception of the guy I got my current bitch from no one I know of (in the world and that is a pretty bold statement to make but one I stand by) has pushed their dogues as hard or as far as I have physically so I'd say this is more than just an educated guess.


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## Candy Eggert

Christopher Smith said:


> Personally, I don't look at one trait when the dog is biting, I try my best to look at the big picture. Is he really biting or just "griping"? What is the body posture? What's the guarding like? How does he change when the handler comes into the picture? What are the entries like?
> 
> It's really simple and comforting for some people to make things black and white. 1=1=2, less than full grips= POS nerves, dog wins trials= "not real".........[/quote
> 
> Thanks Chris! I agree that looking at the total package and not just focusing on one aspect of a dog is the best way to judge. Fighting a dog for what he does naturally usually ends up worse in the long run.
> 
> For the OP, I would just continue to work the dog the best way you can and not obsess over something that you may not be able to change.
> 
> And as Molly said: Other dogs just don't care if they are full or 3/4, or even 1/2 - their grip is also genetic IMO.
> 
> That may be where the theory of "mouth breathing" comes from?


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## tracey schneider

Christopher Smith said:


> Personally, I don't look at one trait when the dog is biting, I try my best to look at the big picture. Is he really biting or just "griping"? What is the body posture? What's the guarding like? How does he change when the handler comes into the picture? What are the entries like?
> 
> It's really simple and comforting for some people to make things black and white. 1=1=2, less than full grips= POS nerves, dog wins trials= "not real".........


Excellent post. When reading posts you always see folks comment on things they just don't fully understand. Somewhere a person or judge will comment on one aspect of a dog as a weakness while taking the whole picture into account and a bystander will say to themselves "oh all dogs that do this one thing must be showing this or that"....doesn't work that way. I guess its quicker to label than read.

On bulldogs, I don't know I guess I'd have to look at an overall picture cuz most of mine have been the bite full and try to keep stuffing kinds and yeah I think it is genetic BUT a lack of CAN also be nerves....whole picture. I do have one that as he tires his carry will loosen and you "may" see his bite get less full depending on how heated he is...I can tell u that even if his grip is less full your not forcing him off the bite...I know as we have tried with the stick and quit prior to breaking teeth. 
T


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Does he have an elongated palate ?? How about when he is working, does his throut swell up ?? Buko has this problem. If you look at him when he is just hanging out, there is plenty of room to breathe, when he is working his throut closes to about an inch or inch and a half. Never figured that one out. 

He can go for a run with me on the bike without any trouble, and can go for 5 miles easily. However, on the field if he gets real worked up, he has trouble breathing and you can see it effect how full the bite is.


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## Nicole Stark

I'd like to see a video of this dog working. Windpipe or palette issue, or something else, seeing it in action as it's happening should make it pretty clear what the issue is. Windpipe or palette issues would be something I would and have selected against. It's too limiting no matter if you are working the dog in sport or out in the wide open and in the right circumstances could set the dog up for heat stroke or other stress induced conditions. The two dogs I had with either (palette and windpipe issues) incidentally both bloated. The one with the windpipe issue I nearly lost to heat stroke a few years prior. 

Windpipe restrictions and thresholds, are they related? Maybe so. My gut tells me they are.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

I thought you said you were gonna put me on ignore. Time to do so. All of you that think I am so BS but cannot seem to put me on ignore just look like fools. Just HAVE to read what I am gonna post.

I still think I should have say who gets to read what I write, especially after so many of you have told me I am such a piece of shit. Put me on ignore.


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## Joby Becker

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I still think I should have say who gets to read what I write, especially after so many of you have told me I am such a piece of shit. Put me on ignore.


Now that is funny.....


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## Nicole Stark

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I thought you said you were gonna put me on ignore. Time to do so. All of you that think I am so BS but cannot seem to put me on ignore just look like fools. Just HAVE to read what I am gonna post.
> 
> I still think I should have say who gets to read what I write, especially after so many of you have told me I am such a piece of shit. Put me on ignore.


This is your response to what I said? If so why? The dog I wanted to see video of was the one belonging to the original poster, not yours, I've seen him work through the videos you have posted of him. Having seen this happen to other dogs first hand I know exactly what you are talking about. I also stand by every statement I made in my post and maybe that's really what confronts you. That's irrelevant to me. What is more important to me is that you read the attached link and consider the possibility that my statements were accurate. I can't help but think that you took offense to the fact that I said I'd select against that quality and that's why you responded to me in the manner you did. There's no reason for that. As far as I am concerned it's a legitimate criteria to select against given what I do with my own dogs.

BTW, when you returned I sent you a PM and said welcome back. I also said I missed you, which I did. I enjoy learning from you but I also told one of your friends a few weeks ago that I didn't understand why you treat me the way you do. I still don't. Sometimes we don't always figure things out, just the way it goes.

http://www.webheads.co.uk/sleddog/ezine/pdf/Heat_Stress.pdf


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## Jeff Oehlsen

You said you were going to put me on ignore, just go ahead and do so.


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## Nicole Stark

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> You said you were going to put me on ignore, just go ahead and do so.


I will not. I came here to learn and that's exactly what I intend to do.


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## Don Turnipseed

I am not putting you on ignore. I have to see what you write so I know if your picking at Susan again. :mrgreen:


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## steve davis

David Frost said:


> If it's not a stamina issue caused by too much bite work and it's not a blockage I'd go with the nerve issue. I've worked literally thousands of dogs in bite work and have never had that issue that it wasn't a malady of some sort, or nerve issue.
> 
> DFrost


 
i can run the dog all day, ride a bike with him for 5 or 6 miles in 85 degree weather and he's fine. take him out on the training field and he goes ****ing nuts just wearing himself down. we are really pushing him to "calm" down because he gets so amped up and he will be trialing this year and i dont want him barking his ass off the hole time. he is nervy, but i wouldnt call it "bad nervy" (although this could sturr up an arguement) put it this way, he's just a nut case....anyway, last weeked, and i dont have any video, we worked him and from what i've always noticed was its not the first time i get him out to work, its the second go-around that he starts getting fatigued, huffing and puffing, and has shitty grips. i dont think it would be a health issue, maybe just a conditioning issue....my lazy ass :-\" 

we're really going to be working on this issue and ill keep an update on it.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: I will not. I came here to learn and that's exactly what I intend to do.

THere are plenty of others, learn from them. They all know so much. Learn from Susan, put me on ignore.



Steve:

Your dog sounds like mine. Exactly. Got to be the same thing.


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## Michelle Reusser

steve davis said:


> i can run the dog all day, ride a bike with him for 5 or 6 miles in 85 degree weather and he's fine. take him out on the training field and he goes ****ing nuts just wearing himself down. we are really pushing him to "calm" down because he gets so amped up and he will be trialing this year and i dont want him barking his ass off the hole time. he is nervy, but i wouldnt call it "bad nervy" (although this could sturr up an arguement) put it this way, he's just a nut case....anyway, last weeked, and i dont have any video, we worked him and from what i've always noticed was its not the first time i get him out to work, its the second go-around that he starts getting fatigued, huffing and puffing, and has shitty grips. i dont think it would be a health issue, maybe just a conditioning issue....my lazy ass :-\"
> 
> we're really going to be working on this issue and ill keep an update on it.


Sounds like the dog is feeling more stress than you want to admit. If it's affecting his performance, I do call it "bad nervy". I'm sure all of that "nutcaseness" is very impressive, however your drawing a clear picture, that the dog is such a nut, he can't focus on what needs to be done and is wasting all his energy on barking like a nutjob and acting the fool. If he can run 5-6 miles just fine, he's in shape and his pallet is OK enough for that, he just can't take the stress of manwork.


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## steve davis

Michelle Kehoe said:


> Sounds like the dog is feeling more stress than you want to admit. If it's affecting his performance, I do call it "bad nervy". I'm sure all of that "nutcaseness" is very impressive, however your drawing a clear picture, that the dog is such a nut, he can't focus on what needs to be done and is wasting all his energy on barking like a nutjob and acting the fool. If he can run 5-6 miles just fine, he's in shape and his pallet is OK enough for that, he just can't take the stress of manwork.


its just that he's soooo prey drivey its not even funny, we have just now started working him into defense (which is very very nice) and he shoud start to calm down. maybe what you would call a nut case is different from me, yes he's nervy, but he's nervy in the sense to me that he cant control his drive, he's not real clear headed but not vicous or uncontrolable if you know what i mean. nice civil drive, but not a lawsuit on a leash..social, but not real affectionate (only affectionate with the family), just a very dominate dog. i recently switched trainers and the trainer i am working with has worked out in the club i trained with for over a year a few times so im familiar with him. i hope that may give you a better idea of his temperment..?? as far as his grips go, he's got a super fast strike, very hard and full. after he is soo winded that he's gasping for air, he's shitty on the grips. i'd like to condition him better on the bites which we have started working on, keeping him on the bite for a longer period of time, soothing, praiseing, and building more confidence and trust between him and i. hopefully we get this worked out, if not, then i guess i have experienced a dog with this type of issue and it'll build experience with this type of dog and ill learn how to further notice such a behavior/characteristic.


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## Nicole Stark

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Your dog sounds like mine. Exactly. Got to be the same thing.


This doesn't sound to you like it's related to thresholds? BTW, I'm not putting you on ignore. \\/


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Then I just won't post.


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## Nicole Stark

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Then I just won't post.


Hoorah, Marine!


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## Steve Pinder

might be some nerve problem, but we can't say anything you can judge the things much better


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## Rigel Lancero

If it's a nerve problem then it wouldn't bite hard and full on the first bite and it wouldn't be fast and hard on the first entry...on every training sessions.

Maybe the dog lacks what they call fight drive.


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