# Jeremy's first bite



## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n9EbGPHQm_0

Jeremy a noob to this board http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f20/hello-mesa-az-14823/

has been coming out to the club with his puppy this past week and tonight he decided he wanted to take a bite from one of my dogs. He's not ready for my Malinois yet so I obliged him with a Rottweiler Attack.

Ha Ha Jeremy, you got your ass kicked by a Dog.=D>


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## jeremy anderson (Mar 19, 2010)

I'm 6'3 210lbs decent shape & that dog took me down like a ton of bricks! Thanks for the chance to do that. Deff want to try that again, & again, & again. Learning a lot. Thanks!


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

D i c k ! !


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## James Lechernich (Oct 20, 2009)

Knocked the poor guy right out of his clothes! Ouch!! :twisted:=D>:twisted:


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

I always wondered how a good responsible dog owner introduces someone to their first bite. I really been doing it wrong.


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## Dave Cartier (Dec 2, 2009)

I love the last reward to your Rottie!!! Good Boy!!! Chuckle, chuckle.

I think it should be mandatory to take a bite when first starting bite work. It shall be my turn soon, because I am a newbie to bite work and what better way to train for something is to see the end result so you know what to train for, and the plan to get there. Nothing like seeing it up close and personal.

I insist that my customers feel an e-collar on the level they will teach their dog at. I also show what a prong collar feels like. It makes them realize the effect on the dog, and have a better understanding of the overall process of training. They are not so quick to just push buttons. Avoidance behavior 101.

Thanks for the video.


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## jeremy anderson (Mar 19, 2010)

Chris McDonald said:


> I always wondered how a good responsible dog owner introduces someone to their first bite. I really been doing it wrong.


I had taken a couple on a sleeve from the same dog & I was reasonably comfortable after watching the 3 experienced trainers/helpers everyday for the last week that I could do this. I'm sure that I didn't catch him very good but I never felt like I was gonna be hurt or anything. Good times


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## Keith Jenkins (Jun 6, 2007)

Not a question if you get hurt your job is to not hurt the dog.


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Nice. Chris, you're a decent acter too!


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## Jason Hammel (Aug 13, 2009)

Kaiser is a good boy!


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## jeremy anderson (Mar 19, 2010)

Keith Jenkins said:


> Not a question if you get hurt your job is to not hurt the dog.


*Disclaimer
No animals were harmed in the filming of this scenario.


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## Wayne Dodge (Mar 7, 2008)

Most of the time around here I just keep my mouth shut yet based upon some of the responses I had to give my take.

This is stupid, it is not the way to introduce bite work to anyone, the danger to both the dog and the bite dummy is significant. Each and every individual should be taken through the basic mechanics of how to correctly target, catch and absorb a dog. Then they should start practicing their technique in an open area without any other distractions from a short distance and increase in complexity and distance with time. In no way shape or form should anyone consider this a safe introduction to doing decoy work.

The guy although obviously motivated has no idea what he is doing, he could have easily been bitten in many areas other then the intended bite location, his safety gear was not properly worn, he is then left completely alone by a handler who finds it funny that his dog just stripped his bite dummy of his protective gear. I get it that some dogs have no real intention of actually biting a person, yet silly assumptions based upon pride and prior experience has gotten more then one person bit seriously.

All and all, not an example I would put out on the net for people to find funny. I do not know Michael or Jeremy and their may be more to the story then was put out there initially yet this is my two cents worth from what information I have.


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

don't forget that I KNOW the dog well. I knew exactly what he was going to do and where he was going to target. The exercise was safe and as the video shows, neither were hurt. We told Jeremy where the dog was going to hit him and the dog did. I know the dog would not engage the man after he had the suit.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Chris Michalek said:


> don't forget that I KNOW the dog well. I knew exactly what he was going to do and where he was going to target. The exercise was safe and as the video shows, neither were hurt. We told Jeremy where the dog was going to hit him and the dog did. I know the dog would not engage the man after he had the suit.



Chris,

Nobody knows exactly what any dog is going to do in any specific circumstance. I agree with Wayne, NOT the way that I'd introduce anyone to decoy work.


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Chris,
> 
> Nobody knows exactly what any dog is going to do in any specific circumstance. I agree with Wayne, NOT the way that I'd introduce anyone to decoy work.


I KNOW exactly where my dog is going to bite because I trained him. I know what kind of dog he is, I know what he does after the bite. I know how serious he is.

Are you guys that seriously out of tune with your dogs?


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Chris Michalek said:


> I KNOW exactly where my dog is going to bite because I trained him. I know what kind of dog he is, I know what he does after the bite. I know how serious he is.
> 
> Are you guys that seriously out of tune with your dogs?


Whatever you say Chris. I'll take my years of real world experience
(not only dog training) over your youthful confidence any day 
I guarantee if Jeremy had of slipped and fell or moved his arm at the last minute, you couldn't have guaranteed where the dog would have bit. Accidents happen even with experienced decoys.


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

Chris, I always try to go with saftey first, and that is what I believe the above post are trying to convey. What if this new decoy stepped on his foot or fell on the dog or kicked him in the balls, what does your dog do then?


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Edward Egan said:


> Chris, I always try to go with saftey first, and that is what I believe the above post are trying to convey. What if this new decoy stepped on his foot or fell on the dog or kicked him in the balls, what does your dog do then?



I understand what you guys are saying. I understand safety. I've done plenty of stupid shit before but I'm not about to get my dog nor the helper hurt. 

Jeremy did what we told him to. The dog did what we told Jeremy he would do. Jeremy was conscious about slipping off the jacket which is what I wanted. If that didn't happen, I would have watched and outed the dog.


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Whatever you say Chris. I'll take my years of real world experience
> (not only dog training) over your youthful confidence any day
> I guarantee if Jeremy had of slipped and fell or moved his arm at the last minute, you couldn't have guaranteed where the dog would have bit. Accidents happen even with experienced decoys.



Had Jeremy slipped, I would have yelled a command for the dog to cease his attack. Do you guys not have that level of control over your dog? But even on the ground the dog will target the bicep, I know this because I train for it. 

I understand accidents can, do and will happen. I've seen them and I've been a part of them on both ends.

The exercise was much more controlled than appears.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Edward Egan said:


> Chris, I always try to go with saftey first, and that is what I believe the above post are trying to convey. What if this new decoy stepped on his foot or fell on the dog or kicked him in the balls, what does your dog do then?



EXACTLY, An experienced mondio ring decoy fell on my Dobermann Dubheasa during a face attack once. He went to the ER and needed 14 stitches in his chin. Accidents happen even with experienced decoys. Doing a 20+ foot send with a first time decoy, wearing only an unbuttoned bite jacket and hoping he'll stand there and not panic at the last minute? There's more 
luck then skill involved IMHO


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## Jack Roberts (Sep 5, 2008)

I think Jeremy should be given credit for trying it. He seemed okay to me and did not look fearful. I congratulate Jeremy on trying it out. 

We talk about getting bit by the dog but I'm sure most everyone on here has been bitten one time or another. If you mess with dogs that are biting, then count on accidents. It is part of playing the game.

I have had training accidents with my own dog nailing me which was my own fault. I learned don't play tug and talk to someone else at the same time, especially with a Malinois.


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## jeremy anderson (Mar 19, 2010)

I don't know dick about training dogs so I'm not gonna argue what I don't know. I have been training with Chris, Jesse, Tim, & Pauline for 2 weeks now. Every day for 3-4 hours a day. 3.5 of those hours are observing, asking questions, & learning. I have complete confidence in the advise they give me & what I see for myself. Hopefully I get another chance to take a bite. I felt the impact & now know what to expect. You never know till you try right?


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## Wayne Dodge (Mar 7, 2008)

Here is the simple truth... 

Once upon a time I would have felt the same way. As time passed I realized that once you start to think you know your dog/dogs and you think you know how a situation is gonna play out is when one day you will realize you know nothing because all of a sudden things go to hell and you have a hurt dog or decoy on his way to the hospital. I'm sure everyone on here has seen a dog bite or two yet I'm talking about the permament injury type bites not love taps. 

I'm not gonna engage in a long drawn out argument over this, in my opinion it was foolish and I hope you never get to experience why.


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## jeremy anderson (Mar 19, 2010)

Thanks for the opinions
As I stated I am new to this. So that brings up the question, how do you go about preparing for & getting your first bite?
I know everyone stated that it's more than a week into it but what else should I do?


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

There is the Jimmy Vanhove seminar, Wayne will have a seminar again at some point as well.


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## jeremy anderson (Mar 19, 2010)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> There is the Jimmy Vanhove seminar, Wayne will have a seminar again at some point as well.


Ok, besides flying to Ohio for the seminar, is there anything else I can do to learn how to properly take a bit on a sleeve or jacket in training.
I spend 8 hrs a day at work (easy job) watching video's, another 3-4 hrs after work watching it live. What tips can you guys give me. Any advise would be appreciated. Thanks.


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

jeremy anderson said:


> Ok, besides flying to Ohio for the seminar, is there anything else I can do to learn how to properly take a bit on a sleeve or jacket in training.
> I spend 8 hrs a day at work (easy job) watching video's, another 3-4 hrs after work watching it live. What tips can you guys give me. Any advise would be appreciated. Thanks.



We'll show you how to catch a dog when you're ready. Nobody on the internet can help you nor can you learn from vids. However, you're not ready for any of that stuff yet especially with the Mals in our club.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

You are right Chris, there is no help besides you. LOL


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> You are right Chris, there is no help besides you. LOL



yeah yeah, you know what I mean, it's best to be shown physically and no one in the virtual world can help with than unless you believe in ghosts and shit.

Though if anybody could show you over the net and through vids, it would be Fred Hassen. Where did he go?


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## Fred Hassen (Mar 23, 2010)

Chris Michalek said:


> yeah yeah, you know what I mean, it's best to be shown physically and no one in the virtual world can help with than unless you believe in ghosts and shit.
> 
> Though if anybody could show you over the net and through vids, it would be Fred Hassen. Where did he go?


Can't help you out there Chris. I don't show vids on this forum with equipment on any more. I'll leave the helping the dog in with the leash explanations to you. As you kept telling me, you can't use that in a trial.
You will have to handle all the 'training aid' questions by your lonesome.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Fred Hassen said:


> Can't help you out there Chris. I don't show vids on this forum with equipment on any more. I'll leave the helping the dog in with the leash explanations to you. As you kept telling me, you can't use that in a trial.
> You will have to handle all the 'training aid' questions by your lonesome.


Good one Fred :lol:


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## todd pavlus (Apr 30, 2008)

I would like to see some video of Chris in suit catching some dogs=D>


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

todd pavlus said:


> I would like to see some video of Chris in suit catching some dogs=D>


 
I'd like to see Sandra Bullock painting my garage in a bikini, but we both know that aint gonna happen don't we ??


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YTgDRDxGp24


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: it's best to be shown physically and no one in the virtual world can help

Jeremy, have someone throw a tennis ball at your chest, left right middle. If the ball bounces back, you were too slow, if the ball sorta banks off your chest and goes behind you, you were just right. You are turning to catch the dog, and in a perfect catch, the dog snags you as he goes by, with little impact.

Blow me Chris. I am the best there ever was at this splainin shit.


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> I'd like to see Sandra Bullock painting my garage in a bikini, but we both know that aint gonna happen don't we ??



There you go again Germwood


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: it's best to be shown physically and no one in the virtual world can help
> 
> Jeremy, have someone throw a tennis ball at your chest, left right middle. If the ball bounces back, you were too slow, if the ball sorta banks off your chest and goes behind you, you were just right. You are turning to catch the dog, and in a perfect catch, the dog snags you as he goes by, with little impact.
> 
> Blow me Chris. I am the best there ever was at this splainin shit.


You win Jeff, that's good!


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Chris Michalek said:


> There you go again Germwood


Don't **** with me Jabba


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

todd pavlus said:


> I would like to see some video of Chris in suit catching some dogs=D>



Because you have a crush on the Michelin Man?

I can't do suit work. Too fat and and I have terrible shoulder that I can't lift perpendicular to my body. I have been schooled in the ways of catching dog but I don't do it often enough. I know it seems misleading when I said WE would show Jeremy how to catch dogs. I was careful not to say I and mentioning the name of the guy in the group that would do it is meaningless. I really meant WE as "the club"


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> Don't **** with me Jabba



Get to Vegas. Bring your dog!


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Chris Michalek said:


> You win Jeff, that's good!


Ya, totally. When I read that I got an amused look on my face and thought that's about as good as it gets.


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## jeremy anderson (Mar 19, 2010)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: it's best to be shown physically and no one in the virtual world can help
> 
> Jeremy, have someone throw a tennis ball at your chest, left right middle. If the ball bounces back, you were too slow, if the ball sorta banks off your chest and goes behind you, you were just right. You are turning to catch the dog, and in a perfect catch, the dog snags you as he goes by, with little impact.
> 
> Blow me Chris. I am the best there ever was at this splainin shit.


Ok so I was hoping to confuse the dog by looking like a wall. That tactic didn't work. Next time I will try your method.
Really thanks for the advise. Any little bit I can pick up from anywhere helps.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Chris Michalek said:


> Because you have a crush on the Michelin Man?
> 
> I can't do suit work. Too fat and and I have terrible shoulder that I can't lift perpendicular to my body. I have been schooled in the ways of catching dog but I don't do it often enough. I know it seems misleading when I said WE would show Jeremy how to catch dogs. I was careful not to say I and mentioning the name of the guy in the group that would do it is meaningless. I really meant WE as "the club"


Chris,

Being too fat and too OLD is even worse :-(
I'm limited to stationary Schutzhund H&B's only.
Did you ever see Mark Rowe do suit work? BIG Dude with some decent moves.


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Chris,
> 
> Being too fat and too OLD is even worse :-(
> I'm limited to stationary Schutzhund H&B's only.
> Did you ever see Mark Rowe do suit work? BIG Dude with some decent moves.



my body is pretty beat up from College football. I was a middle linebacker and got my pelvis cracked. Came back from that and then completely destroyed my shoulder.


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## jeremy anderson (Mar 19, 2010)

Jeff thank you for the pointers

5 pages of criticizing & 1 post thats helpful.

I was told when I was younger "if your not going to help fix it, don't bitch about it".

I've read post after post on this site & I keep seeing people argue about how they know more than the next guy. this forum seems like a big pissing contest. 
there are topics with good advise but you have to read "5" pages of trainers knocking the other guy.
I have no problem someone telling me I'm doing it wrong, but the next sentence should be how to correct it.

Just a newbies .02


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

What was I thinking Jeremy ?? I should have never held that gun to your head to make you read critical posts. My fault. Now send me the two hundred dollars that I charge a day for telling you how to learn to catch a dog.

Ever heard the expression "Don't look a gift horse in the mouth" ?


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> What was I thinking Jeremy ?? I should have never held that gun to your head to make you read critical posts. My fault. Now send me the two hundred dollars that I charge a day for telling you how to learn to catch a dog.
> 
> Ever heard the expression "Don't look a gift horse in the mouth" ?


Would you like me to throw a wrench at him? If you can dodge a wrench you can dodge a dog.


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## Wayne Dodge (Mar 7, 2008)

Jeremy let me point out two in my opinion important facts that I think you have missed here.

First off in no way shape or form was Jeff criticizing your technique or ability to catch a dog, he was criticizing the fact that Chris put you in that situation at all to start with. You are not expected to understand the potential implications of your actions when you have no real idea of what is appropriate or not to start with.

Second you are asking a complete stranger to help teach you to become a better decoy. He gave you some solid advise twice, the first was more practical and appropriate by suggesting you attend a decoy seminar. The second was giving you a small trick that can help with your ability to correctly absorb a dog. Neither one will fix your problem of wanting to become a competent decoy yet they were given freely for no reason other then the fact that he wanted to help.

In turn I will make it as plain as I can for you. If you want to become a Good decoy then you must work for it, you must earn it, you must desire it and sacrifice for it. Start by learning the basic techniques from a local individual, tape yourself doing basic techniques alone at first and then with dogs, start watching world class decoys on tape, attend seminars and purchase learning material to increase your canine behavior knowledge, travel to different areas to watch different decoys and dogs work, become a certified decoy in some organization and start working many different dogs. All in all it is on you, in no shape or form is it anyones responsibility to help you learn, it is your own, you either want it or you don’t.


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## jeremy anderson (Mar 19, 2010)

Wayne Dodge said:


> Jeremy let me point out two in my opinion important facts that I think you have missed here.
> 
> First off in no way shape or form was Jeff criticizing your technique or ability to catch a dog, he was criticizing the fact that Chris put you in that situation at all to start with. You are not expected to understand the potential implications of your actions when you have no real idea of what is appropriate or not to start with.
> 
> ...


Now when I said thank you jeff for the advise. That's what I meant. I wasn't being sarcastic I meant it. The comment after that was not directed at him. 
So let me say it again thank you I appriciate the advise. 
Maybe that goes back to my post. To much shit talking & you can't recognize a genuine compliment. 
Wayne.... Thanks for the advise. I am going everyday to watch & take notes on what they do.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

You got my 2 C notes ??


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## jeremy anderson (Mar 19, 2010)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> You got my 2 C notes ??


Can u pro rate it since I didn't get the full days lesson?


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Flat rate. Sorry.


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> You got my 2 C notes ??


Nope, he spent it on pizza for a couple of fat guys. \\/


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Expensive pizza you got down there.


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