# GSD Popular Stud Dogs Part I--Fero vom Zeuterner Himmelreich



## Terrasita Cuffie

In your opinion:

1. What phenotypical working traits did he himself exhibit--pros, cons?
2. As a producer what did he reproduce reliably in his progeny as far as working traits?
3. Anything special as far as what he produced in the health department--hips, elbows, spine, longevity?
4. Best producing sons/grandsons and why do you think so.
5. Worst producing sons/grandsons and wy do you think so.
6. Notable bitch progeny?
7. In a linebreeding, what's considered too much Fero and why?
8. If you breed tight on him [let's say 2,3] what negative traits pop up
9. Compatible bloodlines to balance him out?


Terrasita


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga

I think Fero produced some notable stud dog. Nonetheless i think he contributed a great deal to the hip dysplasia problem we have now. A lot of his siblings and progeny had bad hips. Bad health is a bigger problem with GSDs for police work than drive. Nowadays there are very few west german dogs without fero somewhere in their pedigree, even a lot of czech lines have his blood.
On the bright side, Fero produced some very high drive, civil dogs. Koos hassing uses the Fero lines a lot and he's a fan of high drive dogs that have good aggression. Timmy and troll were one of his best. 
Fero has left his good and bad attributes. The bad ones i guess could have been avoided by breeding him to only the healthiest bitches around but there's no point crying over spilled milk. As far as his bitework the only video i've seen of him, his grips looked strong and 'vigorous' but not exactly full.


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## Nancy Jocoy

One question as well, since he was born almost 30 years ago, at which point does his contribution become meaningless (except as carried/modified through subsequent offspring)

I am sure my new puppy is not atypical in having Fero once in the 5th and once in the 6th generation. In otherwords, what would a 2,3 linebreeding mean since it really is no longer possible.


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## Gillian Schuler

My dog has him in his pedigree but Fero was bred to so many bitches, I can't see how he can alone contribute to bad hips today. Mine has excellent hips.

I'm not a breeder but maybe you could post your pup's pedigree - it takes two to produce a litter and I could look at its "closer" relatives.


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## Nancy Jocoy

No point in derailing, my point was that anymore Fero is so far back, how relevant is he (maybe a 2,3 vs a 5,5 5,5,5 or some such thing) How much backmassing do you need to do if you want a dog to have a major impact on subsequent generations.

Gillian-I did put his pedigree in the raising a working puppy thread that I started though. Always welcome for more insights there.


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## sam wilks

I think you bring up a great point! You see a lot of dogs for sale that are advertised as having certain dogs in their lines. But those dogs are so far back, there is no way you can have a remote clue as to what kind of dog you could expect! I do believe that a dog that far back can play into the equation if the breeders working with those lines the whole way are very smart and know how to bring those lines forward! But 99% of the time that is not going to be the case. Think about it, with Fero for example you have at least 4-5 generations of breeding between him and your dog. That means there are that many matings of dogs, both bringing even more genetics into the equation. How can one dog produce himself through all of that. I would never buy a dog based on a dog that far back in his pedigree! But thats just my opinion! Thats why most of you GSD people are so crazy!:lol:


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## Gillian Schuler

I have GSDs but I agree with you.


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## Gillian Schuler

Nancy

I've seen not only Fero but Umsa Bungalow (one of the first names I heard of whe I started training with GSD people). She produced the Körbelbach GSDs, among others. Unfortunately, I don't know the Czech lines.

Gleisdreieck also figures, a DDR breeding. see Lump Gleisdreick

I cannot place my faith in a dog but in the breeders of such dogs. The breeders of the above dogs were breeding robust, healthy dogs and produced good working dogs.

Somewhere along the line the excellent attributes can get diluted, must not, however.

Your breeder seems to have a healthy insight.
I reckon you have enough experience to select a good breeder and will get a healthy, robust pup. The rest is up to you.


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## Connie Sutherland

Gillian, you might want to copy your post to this thread:

http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f10/new-crapshoot-i-mean-puppy-coming-21579/






Nancy Jocoy said:


> Gillian-I did put his pedigree in the raising a working puppy thread that I started though. Always welcome for more insights there.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

One reason for these threads is that there are references to dogs being Fero-free. Why? How much is too much Fero in a pedigree. Do sons like Timmy/Troll over-ride any negatives. Do other sons [Crok] bring those negative to the forefront? Consider a pedigree

Fero 5,5,4--5,,4,5
Troll 4, 4,5
Yoschy 3-3,4

What would you expect to get in this dog's progeny? In GSDs you'll see certain dogs in a pedigree in the 3-5the generations and comments like "ohhh, you're in for some high times." How dominant are these dogs? 

Terrasita


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## Christopher Smith

It depends on the type of bitches too. For example, If you have that type of inbreeding to huge, thick nerved bitches, you will have a different type of offspring than if you bred to small, nervy bitches. It's the same inbreeding but completely different results.


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## sam wilks

exactly my point guys! to many possible combinations with one dog! There is no way you will see consistency that far down the line, just like chris said!


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## Gillian Schuler

Connie Sutherland said:


> Gillian, you might want to copy your post to this thread:
> 
> http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f10/new-crapshoot-i-mean-puppy-coming-21579/


Thanks - have now done


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## Daryl Ehret

Maybe in another week I'll have my desktop internet going again, but I don't care to tackle this topic too deeply with my smartphone.

Fero's stamp into his bloodlines are his grip and his drive, not a great producer of hips himself, but nevertheless the best hip producers are from his bloodlines because of the females he was bred to in the development of his bloodlines. Basically, his legacy is now better than HE was. His bloodlines nick particularly well with others that carry it through for their hardness, nerves and stability, combined with his drives and his full grips, because his lines can be known to carry nervous aggression.


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga

Daryl Ehret said:


> Maybe in another week I'll have my desktop internet going again, but I don't care to tackle this topic too deeply with my smartphone.
> 
> Fero's stamp into his bloodlines are his grip and his drive, not a great producer of hips himself, but nevertheless the best hip producers are from his bloodlines because of the females he was bred to in the development of his bloodlines. Basically, his legacy is now better than HE was. His bloodlines nick particularly well with others that carry it through for their hardness, nerves and stability, combined with his drives and his full grips, because his lines can be known to carry nervous aggression.


Daryl i do like Fero and looking at his video i get reminded of Ink zoterhund, ---lot of head shaking in the bite work. Except the video was bad it seemed his grips although strong and determined were not full mouth grips. Don't know what to deduce from that.
Having said that, i believe he was almost overused, i'm sure there were other good dogs in his time and i think for a dog with a-fast normal hips he may have been bred with some bitches that didn't have excellent hips themselves and this is a big problem now.
You made good points on Nick and his other sons with good hips but we know that dogs with 'good' hips from parents with poorer hips can still produce dysplastic dogs.


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## Daryl Ehret

My stud dog is linebred Fero, and I have a litter of puppies now, linebred Nick and Yoschy, all of them shaking their head on the bite at 3 weeks old.


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## Peter Cavallaro

T is there a part II to this thread??


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Peter Cavallaro said:


> T is there a part II to this thread??


Well, I'm hoping for a tad more on Part I. Daryl and Oluwatobi have raised some interesting points. From a working aspect--hard grip, not necessarily full, head shaking, drive, less than ideal hips and produced less than ideal hips; and given to nervous aggression. I'm curious, just for keeping it clarified--what dogs are considered in the "Fero line." I think head shaking in bite work is interpreted differently by different people. 

On hips, looking at his litter, 2 were rated that I could find---one noch zuch and Fero a Fast Normal. Looking at dogs listed out of Fero's sire---Fero is a fast normal and the other 3 that are rated are noch zuchs. The dam has one other progeny listed from a different litter than Fero and that dog is a fast normal. I don't think it can be said that Fero had anything to do with correcting hips. The bitch lines that were bred to him helped do that. How dominant are those bitch lines when you line breed on Fero or can you linebreed [top and bottom] on the popular sons/grandsons [Yoschy, Troll, Timmy, Ali, Nick] and get decent hips. 

T


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Daryl Ehret said:


> My stud dog is linebred Fero, and I have a litter of puppies now, linebred Nick and Yoschy, all of them shaking their head on the bite at 3 weeks old.


Daryl,

Have you done hips/elbows certifications on Hutch, Pike, Pia, Pitch and Nyx? Those stats would be interesting within this linebreeding discussion on Fero.


Terrasita


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## Daryl Ehret

Sorry, I have not. A large majority of the best all time SV producers for hips are from Fero lines, though not necessarily due to Fero. This list shows 60 of the best on record, colored in blue. If Fero's behind the sireline, it's in the left column hilighting the dog's name. If Fero's in the damline, it's in the right column, hilighting the percentage value of estimated HD free progeny of the producer.


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## sam wilks

It seems there are a lot of stats about this dog getting thrown around. What I find interesting is that there are so many matings that have fero in them and yet only a few case examples of what he brings to the table. Darryl, of all people I would of thought you to have been smarter than that! I dont know a lot about GSD lines and don't care to, this is just common sense though.


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## Daryl Ehret

Few case examples of what? I definitely don't know what you're talking about. Share some common sense here, if you think you have something to add.


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## sam wilks

Im saying, how can you attribute your pups behavior to one dog so far back in their pedigree. Also if a dogs progeny is better then the actual dog was is it possible that it is not that dog who should get the credit in the first place. I am not oblivious that dogs can produce better progeny then themselves in some cases, but repeatedly, and with so many variables?


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## Daryl Ehret

Because the dad had it, the mom had it, each of the grandparents, great grandparents.... If it's not in the phenotype of the ancestry, I wouldn't count on a miraculous appearance of these particular Fero attributed characteristics. Drives and commited grips and aggression aren't the sort of characteristics I'd expect to lie dormant, and brought out _because of _linebreeding.


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## Daryl Ehret

I got distracted and didn't mean to avoid the second part of your statement. I agree, and stated that the dog's legacy was better than HE was, and that's because of the many variables of other producers that were brought into his line.


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## sam wilks

Im gonna have to tuck my tale on your example! but would you still agree that many put a lot of emphasis on fero that is undue? Also just out of curiosity, some of the problems you guys talked about with fero seem like pretty important things such as hips, aggression, bite. With all thats in mind why put so much emphasis on including him in any bloodlines?


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## Selena van Leeuwen

But can you still say its from fero than? Is every 5,5 5,5 very clearly fero offspring? Dont know anythingabout gsd lines, i admit, but pure on the breeding part of it?


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## Daryl Ehret

See my added post above, and you're absolutely right, a breeding needs to be balanced for an assortment of qualities, especially when there's added emphasis for aggression, where nerve stability becomes a necessity.


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## Daryl Ehret

_"But can you still say its from fero than? Is every 5,5 5,5 very clearly fero offspring?"_

It depends on "what" your focus is regarding. Some just as easily due to other producers, but for these noted characteristics, unbroken chains of overt selection criteria make it mostly obvious. Selecting for _desireable traits _are pretty much most times not something that will be recessively hidden.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Daryl,

I've seen that spreadsheet a couple of times and never got what you were trying to say about it. All American line dogs go back to Lance of Fran-Jo. That doesn't make him such a hot producer 15 generations later--just overused. I think you can look at Fero as a producer first generation. Did he reproduce himself in his progeny? What was those negatives and positives. There are multiple ways to measure whether he was a good producer---titles, hips, consistent traits reproduced with linebreeding. Why was he such a fad? Was he something the breed didnt' have that made him so popular stud-wise? Or was he the hot title grubber of the moment? Of the sons, the most you hear about are Timmy, Troll. Both out of Askia v. Froschgraben. I think there was a repeat that produced a dog named Vello. What traits did Timmy and Troll exhibit that you can say had to do with the sire as opposed to the dam or even other dogs in the pedigree?


T


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## Joby Becker

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Daryl,
> 
> All American line dogs go back to Lance of Fran-Jo. That doesn't make him such a hot producer 15 generations later--just overused.
> T


you answered your own question about Fero and why people sometimes look for Fero-Free dogs...


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga

Truth is a lot of the TOP studs after Fero were progeny of his. I looked at Asko von der lutter and it seems he is 'Fero free' . Asko IMO was as good or even better than our beloved Fero. Very athletic, over the top drives and healthy, he died when he was around 13 years old.
Anyway i see Fero as a bitter sweet influence on the breed, maybe not as 'great' as some believe but nonetheless he produced some impressive stud dogs--troll,timmy, aly etc. What's more important is if people are selecting the best of the best of whatever lines. The dutch mali people in earlier years didn't use all this jet age technology for selecting the healthiest dogs yet their dogs have an impressive hip health record. 
In the ideal world small breeders would have a few bitches with good drive and healthy and breed to the BEST males but i think nowadays people many males that shouldn't be bred are used as studs. Some people assume that all their litter can produce stud quality dogs.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Okay, typing on the iPad which I hate. But my questions about Fero were about specific traits. I pretty much know he was considered over used. Was he just all fad or did he really bring certain desirable to the table. Lance of Fran Jo was different and a turning point in the breed. I wondered if this was true of Fero and in what regard. surely, he wasn't the only game in town for drive, grips, and fight?
T


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## Daryl Ehret

I don't doubt at all that Asko was a better overall dog than Fero. Fero was a focal reference point in some particular breeder's development plans, FOR THOSE THINGS he offered to each breeder that wished to incorporate what he was known to produce true. Nothing overcomplicated, just a small slice of a big pie. 

The chart is all I've stated it to be; The top ranking hip producers under the SV.


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga

Daryl Ehret said:


> I don't doubt at all that Asko was a better overall dog than Fero. Fero was a focal reference point in some particular breeder's development plans, FOR THOSE THINGS he offered to each breeder that wished to incorporate what he was known to produce true. Nothing overcomplicated, just a small slice of a big pie.
> 
> The chart is all I've stated it to be; The top ranking hip producers under the SV.


Very True,
Many of the best GSD kennels have foundation dogs with Fero somewhere. He certainly wasn't a runt.


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Okay, typing on the iPad which I hate. But my questions about Fero were about specific traits. I pretty much know he was considered over used. Was he just all fad or did he really bring certain desirable to the table. Lance of Fran Jo was different and a turning point in the breed. I wondered if this was true of Fero and in what regard. surely, he wasn't the only game in town for drive, grips, and fight?
> T


I think in the GSD world , the owner of a dog affects how much it is bred. Aron von bracheleer see(spelling) was bred more than his brother Amigo but i heard Amigo was better. Stuff happens;-)


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## brad robert

I see this alot with the GSD that its really hard to find info on individual dogs in the past particularly.Things like there character and personality and just how intense there drives were there trainability how they are to live with etc i just cant find unless im looking in the wrong places.

Other breeds (the apbt for instance)keep records and books on all the old "legend" dogs and all there traits and accomplishments with the GSD it just seems that a title is suppose to tell all and to me it just doesnt.


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## Christopher Smith

Brad a TON of information is out there. Do you ever look at Koer books?


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## brad robert

Where do you access them i would love to see if they have the sort of info im looking for as the few i have browsed at i didnt find detailed enough.


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## Gillian Schuler

Here is a list of the 35 working dogs as seen in *1998*:

http://www.schloss-veitenstein.de/page08-aufsatzleistungsvererber.htm

I can't translate all (shoulder injury so typing one-handedly but Fero had +grips, limitations in the handling (Not an easy dog to handle), aggressive behaviour (I would say positive?).

If any one is interested in the other dogs - one at a time is possible!!

I entered the IPO scene when some of the Körbelbach dogs were competing. Some of their obedience disciplines were low scoring but A+C extremely good.

I think today's GSDs are bred to be more manageable in the obedience part.

I used to love to watch the Worlds but find it somewhat flat nowadays - not trying to criticise the competitors.


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## Peter Cavallaro

thanks for the link gillian - NOT


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## brad robert

Thanks for the link but is that as good as it gets?


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## Kadi Thingvall

Oluwatobi Odunuga said:


> I think in the GSD world , the owner of a dog affects how much it is bred. Aron von bracheleer see(spelling) was bred more than his brother Amigo but i heard Amigo was better. Stuff happens;-)


I don't think this is limited to the GSD world, I see it in the Malinois world also, it's not just about the dog but who owns it, and how it's marketed.


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## Erik Berg

Fero produced dogs with great prey and fightingdrive, trainability, good trackingability and also pretty much aggression/defencedrive. At least what I´ve heard when breeders describe fero. Here in sweden he produced many fine dogs thru one of his sons arry v schloss zweibruggen,
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=388743

This dog didn´t produce so good hips for some breeders in sweden and finland, on the other hand one of his son did produce very good hips, and in turn a son of that dog had almost 300 offspring in sweden and was also a decent hip-producer. His pedigree,
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=119847

So no doubt fero did produce some good studs, how much is due to fero I guess is questionable in those dogs that have him now many generations back. I´m not so familiar with asko vd lutter as a producer, what sons and grandsons of him had so much influence as feros sons and grandsons had? 

A son of troll here also produced extremly well on hips,
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=133321


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Thanks, Erik. Was hoping to get more comments. When looking at Timmy and Troll, still have to wonder about the contribution of the their dam line through Askia v. Frocschgraben. Anyone seen any discussion of her. she was certainly titled out.

T


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## Terrasita Cuffie

http://www.vomhauslord.com/hdzw.html

Here's food for thought. Agree/Disagree?

T


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## Gillian Schuler

*Askia Froschgraben:*

*Kör:* Small, strong, dry, firm, good expression; withers could be more pronounced, backline slightly unstable, strong loin part of the back, very good croup. Angulation cannot be faulted, correct front, good bone. Walks slightly narrow, very good reach. Temperament cannot be faulted, fighting drive, courage and hardness pronounced.
Resurvey 1984: Shown in best form and condition. Clearly shows to be 6 weeks pregnant and today hardness, courage and fight drive are worthy of praise and pronounced.
Siblings*:* Adschy / Aky / Andra / Anka / Asco.

No linebreeding in 5 generations.
Important progeny:
Bösen Nachbarschaft:
Quickie 2xBSP
Rocky BSP
Timmy 3xBSP
Troll 3xBSP
Vello BSP

In Resi Bösen Nachbarschaft she had a daughter who had 48 progeny in 9 litters. Many of these dogs were excellent “Leistungsvererber”, for instance the X-Litter Bösen Nachbarschaft.


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## Gillian Schuler

Xato Bösen Nachbarschaft daughter at nearly 12 years:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RLwEY21cBIo


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## brad robert

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> http://www.vomhauslord.com/hdzw.html
> 
> Here's food for thought. Agree/Disagree?
> 
> T


 Interesting site and the other pages he had up as well.I love to see what people thought these dogs produced and the strong and weak points they had and threw


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Gillian Schuler said:


> *Askia Froschgraben:*
> 
> *Kör:* Small, strong, dry, firm, good expression; withers could be more pronounced, backline slightly unstable, strong loin part of the back, very good croup. Angulation cannot be faulted, correct front, good bone. Walks slightly narrow, very good reach. Temperament cannot be faulted, fighting drive, courage and hardness pronounced.
> Resurvey 1984: Shown in best form and condition. Clearly shows to be 6 weeks pregnant and today hardness, courage and fight drive are worthy of praise and pronounced.
> Siblings*:* Adschy / Aky / Andra / Anka / Asco.
> 
> No linebreeding in 5 generations.
> Important progeny:
> Bösen Nachbarschaft:
> Quickie 2xBSP
> Rocky BSP
> Timmy 3xBSP
> Troll 3xBSP
> Vello BSP
> 
> In Resi Bösen Nachbarschaft she had a daughter who had 48 progeny in 9 litters. Many of these dogs were excellent “Leistungsvererber”, for instance the X-Litter Bösen Nachbarschaft.


Thanks Gillian. Sandra King had comments about this bitch and I've been wondering why she wasn't participating in this thread. So in searching for comments to make sure it was the same bitch, it says she was banned. Maybe she asked to be removed but her father's input would have been nice. In looking at your Kor notes, I kept thinking it didn't jive with what I was thinking in terms of her being a producing brood bitch or what I thought I was remembering what Sandra said. So accordingly to Sandra's father, this bitch was considered a tad "nervy" back in her day. Anyone else recall that she had nerve issues?


T


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## Terrasita Cuffie

More food for thought and recognition of the mother lines of Askia, Mona, and Perle. I know its a controversial source but thoughts/comments?

http://leerburg.com/fero.htm


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## Bob Scott

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> More food for thought and recognition of the mother lines of Askia, Mona, and Perle. I know its a controversial source but thoughts/comments?
> 
> http://leerburg.com/fero.htm



Interesting comment about the dogs with fine heads and fine bone being weak nerved. 
I've always felt the same way about working terriers.


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## ann schnerre

it's about my bedtime, but ANY time i see Busecker Schloss in a bloodline i pay attention. that kennel bred GOOD dogs. just like Kirschental (sp?). FWIW.

and for clarity's sake, i think a separate discussion of females would be good simply because i think females are "under-discussed".


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## Terrasita Cuffie

ann schnerre said:


> it's about my bedtime, but ANY time i see Busecker Schloss in a bloodline i pay attention. that kennel bred GOOD dogs. just like Kirschental (sp?). FWIW.
> 
> and for clarity's sake, i think a separate discussion of females would be good simply because i think females are "under-discussed".


Right now I think GSD bloodlines are under-discussed. I agree with you about the dam contribution which is why I brought up Askia and then Mona, Perle. There's a lot tossed around about get a working line dog but they aren't all created equal. Is it just the BSP flava of the year guiding breeding decisions?

T


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## ann schnerre

oh yeah--look at Javir! but at least we try to make them work!

here's my Edge's ped--he was linebred on (he's very unfortunately deceased) a few of the studs being discussed here, but the litter as a whole has been VERY nice:
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=568890

i personally also LOVE Macho vom Kosakenwald as an under-appreciated dog. a Gildo great gr son and an Afra von Stopenberger land (GREAT BITCH) great grandson.

i love these discussions, BTW


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> More food for thought and recognition of the mother lines of Askia, Mona, and Perle. I know its a controversial source but thoughts/comments?
> 
> http://leerburg.com/fero.htm


Now that's really got me thinking. I don't know what Ed or the other guy mean by nervousness exactly, is it like fear or what? It seems a lot of Czech dogs also have Fero blood but it seems the Czechs have done some nice mixing of west and old czech lines to produce some very healthy dogs--equidius, stribneho kamene, aykmar etc readily come to mind. I'd love tosee more progeny of dogs like Asko, Troll vom haus milinda, etc being used as breeding dogs.
I don't know if its just in the pictures but it seems some working line breeders still fancy the slant backs which IMO is unhealthy for a working dog.


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## Gillian Schuler

http://www.vom-lupusinfabula.de/ (Breeder of Ultra)


DSH-Magazin Report (I just translated roughly the opening paragraph)

Ultra v.d. Bösen Nachbarschaft

Ultra inbred on Askia Froschgraben 3-4 was bred mainly for working performance and anatomy. It is clear that she is not just a random product. We can see that the breeders of her ancestors put a great deal of thought into bloodlines from which I profit today.

Also the fact that her father Aly v Vordersteinwald passed on excellent hips.

Although her ancestors were actively engaged in intensive “Leistungssport”, most of them attained a high age.

I would say that Ultra takes after the father line as she, like Fero, showed aggressive behaviour (Wehrtrieb) in Schutzdienst.

Ultra born 1995 died in 2009.


*Test Results*

Aly Vordersteinwald Progeny

Parents: Troll v.d. Bösen Nachbarschaft – Afra v. Haus Feller

Bloodline Hettel Uckermark – Alf Nordfelsen

No inbreeding

Tested progeny: 10 4 dogs 6 bitches

Passed: 4 / 6 not passed: 0

Age at test between 13 and 26 months

Character:

Very sure
Very good nerve costume
Temperament in desired medium range
Hardness in desired medium range
Absolutely gunshot sure
Protection very pronounced

10 dogs with desired aggression


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## Megan Bays

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Right now I think GSD bloodlines are under-discussed. I agree with you about the dam contribution which is why I brought up Askia and then Mona, Perle. There's a lot tossed around about get a working line dog but they aren't all created equal. Is it just the BSP flava of the year guiding breeding decisions?
> 
> T


How is basing breeding off of BSP dogs any different now than back "then"?

Fado http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=310

Mink http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=302

Fero http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=268

Gildo http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=2929

All of the dogs you have based examples off of have multiple BSP competitors in their immediate bloodline. And most (if not all) were BSP competitors themselves.

I know zilch about GSD bloodlines, but I really love these discussions; one day I will have another great one! I think it's all quite interesting.


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga

Gillian Schuler said:


> http://www.vom-lupusinfabula.de/ (Breeder of Ultra)
> 
> 
> DSH-Magazin Report (I just translated roughly the opening paragraph)
> 
> Ultra v.d. Bösen Nachbarschaft
> 
> Ultra inbred on Askia Froschgraben 3-4 was bred mainly for working performance and anatomy. It is clear that she is not just a random product. We can see that the breeders of her ancestors put a great deal of thought into bloodlines from which I profit today.
> 
> Also the fact that her father Aly v Vordersteinwald passed on excellent hips.
> 
> Although her ancestors were actively engaged in intensive “Leistungssport”, most of them attained a high age.
> 
> I would say that Ultra takes after the father line as she, like Fero, showed aggressive behaviour (Wehrtrieb) in Schutzdienst.
> 
> Ultra born 1995 died in 2009.
> 
> 
> *Test Results*
> 
> Aly Vordersteinwald Progeny
> 
> Parents: Troll v.d. Bösen Nachbarschaft – Afra v. Haus Feller
> 
> Bloodline Hettel Uckermark – Alf Nordfelsen
> 
> No inbreeding
> 
> Tested progeny: 10 4 dogs 6 bitches
> 
> Passed: 4 / 6 not passed: 0
> 
> Age at test between 13 and 26 months
> 
> Character:
> 
> Very sure
> Very good nerve costume
> Temperament in desired medium range
> Hardness in desired medium range
> Absolutely gunshot sure
> Protection very pronounced
> 
> 10 dogs with desired aggression


There's a dog in the Czech republic -----LARGO VIKAR, son of Georg vom lupus in fabula. Although he's still very young he shows insane prey drive.


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## Gillian Schuler

_Thanks Gillian. Sandra King had comments about this bitch and I've been wondering why she wasn't participating in this thread. So in searching for comments to make sure it was the same bitch, it says she was banned. Maybe she asked to be removed but her father's input would have been nice. In looking at your Kor notes, I kept thinking it didn't jive with what I was thinking in terms of her being a producing brood bitch or what I thought I was remembering what Sandra said. So accordingly to Sandra's father, this bitch was considered a tad "nervy" back in her day. Anyone else recall that she had nerve issues?_


_T_

If you read the last few pages on the thread about "Hard Dogs" you will see why Sandra King isn't posting on here at the time being.

I was in hospital whilst this thread was running and have only just read it (at least skimmed through it).

J. Butler and Jim Nash confirmed my suspicions about her.

She is now "educating" the German Dog Handlers and from what I have read, they are not amused. She doesn't mention her Dad on that forum so I still don't know who he is and how qualified he is to comment on the lines you are researching.


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## brad robert

doesnt dogs like aly, yoschy, troll and timmy with a host of others and what they have produced and there kors dismiss alot of what leerburg(faron) wrote from his limited exposure with the line i mean to look at what the line has done and the numbers of bsp dogs etc can so many dogs and people be wrong.Although i wonder if he has a point about the serious side of these dogs for psd.Over here we had a yoschy son that people talked about and flinks said he was a serious dog for sport or LE work was he a fluke i doubt it


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## Gillian Schuler

Brad, I don't know faron (Leerburg).

You said you wouldn't look further than 2-3 generations when choosing a dog and I think similarly. Jutta Seidel, breeder of Ultra impresses me as a breeder and I would feel safe in relying on her knowledge.

Just seen Dirk Stocks website with a video of Quintus Egidius. He describes him as a very headstrong dog. Protecton work at FCI 2011 93 pts. All bite and guarding phases were exemplary - he lost pts on the back transport.

A very strong, confident and impulsive but clear-headed dog:


http://www.dirk-stocks.de/zucht.htm

Video BSP 2009 96 pts. 

I'd love to have Vinzenz Magnani (sp) work my dogs - I've never met him but he seems to be one helluva helper.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Oluwatobi Odunuga said:


> Now that's really got me thinking. I don't know what Ed or the other guy mean by nervousness exactly, is it like fear or what? It seems a lot of Czech dogs also have Fero blood but it seems the Czechs have done some nice mixing of west and old czech lines to produce some very healthy dogs--equidius, stribneho kamene, aykmar etc readily come to mind. I'd love tosee more progeny of dogs like Asko, Troll vom haus milinda, etc being used as breeding dogs.
> I don't know if its just in the pictures but it seems some working line breeders still fancy the slant backs which IMO is unhealthy for a working dog.


As for the BSP influence I think you're right---they do well, people breed to them. I wonder how many breedings a dog gets before the BSP performance. One dog to watch is Javir given his success in the BSP multiple years and his pedigree. As for the "slant back" or sloping topline, that's not unhealthy for the GSD. The slope [dog stacked] was supposed to come from a higher wither with a level back and sloping croup with the proper tailset--not the overly long lower stifle. I worry more about spondylosis and a roached back. The question on the BSP is whether others value it as a test. Does BSP performance necessarily equal quality. On the breeding, I guess its a wait and see what you get.

Terrasita


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