# Vasectomy vs. regular neuter



## mel boschwitz

Anyone ever done a vasectomy on their male dogs in place of a regular neuter? This new dog I have is a state adoption, so by law I have to have him neutered. I checked with ACO and was told a vasectomy was allowed. He is still young, maybe a year. So I hate to deprive him of all the important growing hormones. He's super good natured. He's super super drivey to work. He showed some inclination to mark early on but not much now. All he wants to do is work.

Just wondering if anyone has done it? My vet thinks its a great idea. She doesnt want him neutered at all as he is super good looking too. But the law is the law and my boss (sheriff) would frown on my breaking it. Lol


----------



## rick smith

interesting problem

- what's a "state adoption" and what does the fine print say on when it has to be neutered ?

- examine the regs closely and try and find a loophole that you can use to your advantage...if they are plain vanilla; even better 

- find another statute or regulation from another related agency that might contradict or question the state adoption rqmnt

- regs are made to be modified and/or waivered, state or federal ... get your friendly vet on board in writing and not just in spirit ... even if the request doesn't fly it's still a good stall tactic 

- last resort, can you train him s-l-o-w-l-y and not certify til he's mature and then do it ?

otoh, i don't believe neuter/spaying has been definitively and medically proven to be so bad for a developing dog if it has the heart and soul to work
- i always thought those ancient eunichs (sp?) were still bad ass guards and it was only done to keep em from dipping their wicks in the wrong places //lol//


----------



## Sarah Platts

Well, using humans as a comparison I would take a vas over a neuter since the hormonal production and levels essentially remain unchanged. In humans, there can be a slight up-tick in testosterone production. The testicles remain in place and in full production suppling normal hormonal levels. The surgery is simple with a section of the vas deferens (the tube that carries the semen ejaculate from the testicles to the penis) removed and each end sutured or cauterized close. The only issue is if the sperm production remains high in which case it backs up into the epididymus and causes localized pain. Normally it resolves on it's own but in rare cases they may have to go in and reopen the section closest to the testicle and allow the fluid to leak and be reabsorbed.

I agree with your vet that it's a wonderful idea. A vasectomy maintains all the male hormones but satisfies the "population control" requirement. I'd say Go For It.


----------



## Thomas Barriano

What 's the cost comparison since I assume it would be done at taxpayers expense?


----------



## Sarah Platts

Thomas Barriano said:


> What 's the cost comparison since I assume it would be done at taxpayers expense?


Not necessarily. If Mel is like normal SAR folks, we pay for our own vet costs.


----------



## mel boschwitz

Yep. My expense. Only my female is paid for by my county.Research I have done shows it to be as simple a procedure as a neuter and cost wise should be similar. My vets have never done one but are willing to practice on some of the rescues no cost before they do mine.

This boy is still young and growing. Theres so much new research that shows the problems in early s/n. If I can help him avoid those problems, why not? 

The other option is getting my vet to give me a letter each month saying he is not medically able to undergo a neuter procedure at this time. But she would rather not lie. Lol. (He's quite healthy!). Nor would I want her to.

Thanks for your input Sarah


----------



## susan tuck

Sarah Platts said:


> I agree with your vet that it's a wonderful idea. A vasectomy maintains all the male hormones but satisfies the "population control" requirement. I'd say Go For It.


I agree, and for this reason, if it were my dog, and I had to alter him, this is the route I would choose.


----------



## Sarah Platts

Mel,

let me know how it works out. I congradulate your vet on thinking outside the box and trying this. Like the human male, I would still expect some scrotal swelling and localized pain post-up but it resolves pretty fast because you haven't ripped out anything causing a higher level of tissue damage and cellular seepage. Good luck to you and your new boy!


----------



## rick smith

getting more interesting to me

i've read stuff too about the negatives about S/N in relation to growth development in dogs, but haven't read anything about canine vasectomies being suggested as a better option,,,anyone have refs ?

but if a vasectomy is almost as simple as popping the nuts out of a sac, and healthier and better for the dog's development, why aren't vets routinely trained to do it and why wouldn't they be promoting the procedure ? 
... makes it seem like vet medicine is not keeping up with the times if they would want to practice first on other dogs

regarding the possible pain issue, dogs don't always express pain in the same way male humans would, so the pain might be displayed in "other" behaviors, correct ?
...can't always compare animals to humans straight across

cost comparison ? sounds more expensive to me, which could also be a plus for vets, which makes me wonder even more why they wouldn't be promoting it ?
... i would think MANY dog owners would accept a higher cost if a vet advised it was a healthier alternative

is Gina still here ? I believe she is a canine vet


----------



## leslie cassian

rick smith said:


> getting more interesting to me
> 
> 
> 
> but if a vasectomy is almost as simple as popping the nuts out of a sac, and healthier and better for the dog's development, why aren't vets routinely trained to do it and why wouldn't they be promoting the procedure ?


I suspect because most people who choose to have their dog neutered do so because they don't want to deal with the issues, real or perceived, (marking, humping, roaming, fighting) of having an intact male. Most of the pet people I know can barely teach their dog to sit on command, let alone be savvy enough or committed enough to manage more complex behaviours.


----------



## Karen M Wood

I think the reason most vets may not perform this is that it's not going to reduce some of the unwanted behaviors that the "General Public" doesn't want to deal with. Such as marking and leg lifting in the home.
Roaming for females in heat. Humping your leg, kids, wife, couch, pillows? 
But i don't see this being a problem for most working dogs. Large animal vets often castrate cattle with a 









But i don't think this is the option you really want because this causes atrophy of the testis due to blood flow interruption.
So it really would be more like human Vasectomy. Your vet needs to only cut and cauterize the cords but not interfere with the blood flow. Not really as easy as it sounds because the cords and blood supply are inter-wrapped into each other. I've seen a lot of neuters and on average they take about 15 minutes from start to finish. I'm sure just fixing the cords would take much longer?
Let us know how it works out for the dog.
K


----------



## Tom Connors

Read "Pukka's Legacy. The Quest for Longer-lived Dogs" it is full of research about vasectomy being much better than full neuter. I would also love to hear about those who have used that method on their dogs.


----------



## Joby Becker

_My vet thinks its a great idea. She doesnt want him neutered at all as he is super good looking too. _

how big a part of his good looks are his balls?? 

this is a very interesting topic, thanks for starting it...

Hey Tom, is this the book?
http://www.kerasote.com/book-page.php?isbn13=9780547236261


----------



## Nancy Jocoy

I imagine it is quite simple. DECADES ago when I worked at the UGA vet school we gave a vasectomy to my pet guinea pig during a lunch break. Vet had never done one before but if it is that simple for that small an animal.........


----------



## rick smith

the author cites this ref as a link when he suggests vasectomies :
http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/LongTermHealthEffectsOfSpayNeuterInDogs.pdf
**but that link does NOT mention vasectomies anywhere ...unless i read it wrong
**the ref DOES list all the potential down sides to S/N, but imo the refs used are rather weak in terms of scientific data and studies that back up the conclusions

but if the question is restricted only to which is better : remove the balls or cauterize the sperm channels, i don't see any way to get a definitive answer without some med studies to back it up

re: the vet who doesn't want to neuter him, the way the sentence was written, it is hard to tell whether it was the vet who thought one of the reasons was to keep his good looks
.... but i had to laff at Joby's comment....i thought the same thing when i read that statement 
.... if it's any consolation Mel, lots of people tell me how great my dog looks and he is looks like a bitch from the rear ... but he still loves to bite and will still mark if i let him 

i really wish some vets would weigh in on this issue ... they are the ones who do what we are discussing and debating, and imo it is their responsibility to do the research and educate wisely, and they should be driving the issue, not owners trying to find the best way to raise and care for their dogs

finally, it was implicated that most people who S/N are clueless. i don't agree, but i do think we can thank vets for most of the associations with S/N that have been proven incorrect
...my dog was neutered just before it turned two and never gained an ounce and had very little change in temperament

links to vasectomies for canines Joby ... please please (icon for begging)
this looked promising ... until i opened it :
http://www.veterinarypracticenews.c...check/the-trouble-with-pet-sterilization.aspx


----------



## susan tuck

Interesting that the AVMA no longer supports mandatory spay/neuter of dogs and cats. 

https://www.avma.org/News/JAVMANews/Pages/090515j.aspx?PF=1

"The AVMA policy on "Dog and Cat Population Control" has been revised to express the Association's nonsupport
for regulations or laws mandating spay/neuter of privately owned, nonshelter dogs and cats..."

"...However, potential health problems associated with spaying and neutering have also been identified, including an increased risk of prostatic cancer in males; increased risks of bone cancer and
hip dysplasia in large-breed dogs associated with sterilization before maturity; and increased incidences of obesity, diabetes, urinary tract infections, urinary incontinence, and hypothyroidism..."

http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0055937

http://www.caninesports.com/uploads/1/5/3/1/15319800/spay_neuter_considerations_2013.pdf


In light of the fact that AVMA apparently takes these studies seriously, perhaps more vets will present the option of vasectomy to their clients who want their male dogs altered.


----------



## susan tuck

As to why vets don't perform vasectomies, maybe they aren't routinely taught the procedure?:

http://www.caninesports.com/uploads/1/5/3/1/15319800/spay_neuter_considerations_2013.pdf

"...Veterinary schools do not currently teach students how to perform vasectomies..."

http://www.petmd.com/blogs/fullyvetted/2010/april/ligations_vasectomies#.UkcV39KsiCc

"...OK, so that was my long-winded explanation, to which I’ll add this obvious point:

Veterinarians don’t do vasectomies and tubal ligations because we weren’t taught to do them in school..."


----------



## Tom Connors

Yes, thats the book. It is a good read, including how you only have to give heartworm medicine twice a year and also the neutering stuff. It is a bit hokey at times but still has good info.


----------



## Nancy Jocoy

Pukka?

I don't give Pukka much time on this earth. An intact male dog in the wilds of Montana who is free to come and go as he pleases? Not worried about cancers etc, but coyotes, wolves, and cars may not be his friends after all......

There is some decent stuff in the book but I would not call it earth-shattering and how many of us live in the pristine wilds of Montana? 

I will stick with giving HW preventive every 30-45 days.


----------



## mel boschwitz

Thanks for some great articles.

I am surprised though that there's no one on this board who has had it done to one of their dogs? 

The reason my vet doesnt want him neutered is not because he will suddenly turn ugly when he loses his balls, but because she would like to breed him. 

Irregardless of state reg's when adopting from a state funded shelter, I have zero interest in breeding and wouldnt breed him even if I could. 

My spayed female has hypothyroidism, which, after doing research, I learned is more common among altered dogs, esp females. If I knew then what I know now. Lol


----------



## Nancy Jocoy

Mel, it sounds like you would be stuck. Maybe your vet would be willing to "try it" for your sake. I doubt it would be a dangerous surgery and easy enough to grab a semen sample and test it afterwards.


----------



## Faisal Khan

Karen M Wood said:


> I think the reason most vets may not perform this is that it's not going to reduce some of the unwanted behaviors that the "General Public" doesn't want to deal with. Such as marking and leg lifting in the home.
> Roaming for females in heat. Humping your leg, kids, wife, couch, pillows?
> But i don't see this being a problem for most working dogs. Large animal vets often castrate cattle with a
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But i don't think this is the option you really want because this causes atrophy of the testis due to blood flow interruption.
> So it really would be more like human Vasectomy. Your vet needs to only cut and cauterize the cords but not interfere with the blood flow. Not really as easy as it sounds because the cords and blood supply are inter-wrapped into each other. I've seen a lot of neuters and on average they take about 15 minutes from start to finish. I'm sure just fixing the cords would take much longer?
> Let us know how it works out for the dog.
> K


I castrate calves every now and then on my cousin's ranch, only tool we use is a pocket knife!


----------



## Karen M Wood

Faisal there are a lot of different ways to castrate calve but this is the one that requires not removing the naughty bits. And is pretty scary to look at! There is also banding where they shrivel up and drop off. Cutting them out and crushing the cords. No matter the way the results are the same. Ballless cattle.
Not really what the OP was wanting.


----------



## Faisal Khan

I understand what the OP wants. Was just saying that for neutering, big scary lookin pliers are typically not employed even for cattle


----------



## Sarah Platts

I suppose I'm going to regret this post but here it goes. I just think it's surprising that there don't seem to be many "farm folks" on this forum. All these guys and not one farm kid?

I think that most vets aren't taught to do vasectomies because the dog rarely gets a vote. Tell some human male you want to whack off his balls and he would think this an extreme measure for birth control. A vasectomy is not 100% which is why the neuter crowd may not have pushed that option in the first place. 

For Faisal, we use the emasculatone on the bulls or big calves that weren't cut or elastrated as babies. Partially, it's due to the fact that you get more bleeding when cutting the larger stock and the emasculatone is non-invasive and safer when playing around the hooves of large animals. We started using it after we lost two 800-pounders to blood loss.


----------



## Karen M Wood

I get a kick out of watching Dr Pol and have seen him use these man pliers on several shows.
For TV they are quick and bloodless.
What ever became of the neuter shot? Neutersol injection? Not that i think this would help either. But i wonder if anyone has tried it?
K


----------



## Sarah Platts

Mel, 

When you get this done can you send me a PM with what the cost was? I'm curious. When we started offering vas's for the guys the gear didn't cost much. The cautery machine we had to buy ($155) but your vet should already have. Then we had to buy some toothless hemostats and some sharp pointed surgical scissors. Total cost was around $250 with all of it able to be sterilzed and re-used.


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

Mel,

I know of a vet in Kentucky that has been doing vasectomies for several years now and have discussed it with an acquaintance who is his vet tech. Let me know if you want his contact information. A friend of mine also recently sent me an article regarding female spays leaving the ovaries intact.

T


----------



## Bob Scott

I think the "unwanted behaviors" in dogs are more a result of poor handling/training, tiny bits or not!


----------



## mel boschwitz

Terrasita, please PM me his information. It's a little too far to drive but he could have some useful info for my vet.

I just spoke with her last night. She was saying how little the average vet knows about these new studies coming out on various topics. She said it's the pet owners that are the ones that get the vets looking into the new research that comes out. She just learned about the research concerning a partial hysterectomy for a spay after I got her looking into vasectomies. She said she went to a conference last year that discussed the problems in early s/n but it never once mentioned vasectomies or partial hysterectomies as an option.


----------



## rick smith

re: "I just spoke with her last night. She was saying how little the average vet knows about these new studies coming out on various topics. She said it's the pet owners that are the ones that get the vets looking into the new research that comes out. She just learned about the research concerning a partial hysterectomy for a spay after I got her looking into vasectomies. She said she went to a conference last year that discussed the problems in early s/n but it never once mentioned vasectomies or partial hysterectomies as an option."

kinda what i suspected and she is probably a typical example of many vets
- advances in vet care should not have to be driven by pet owners
- i am sure there are many university based vet research facilities. but i suspect the big money is being thrown at farm animal research that produce major incomes rather than privately owned pets and a few professional working dogs 
- i have spent a few days looking for studies, short term and long term on canine vasectomies vs typical gonadectomy procedures, and there just doesn't seem to be any studies done that were worth publishing 
- that one book ref has no scientific ref for the statement on vasectomy,,,,the one ref given did not discuss the subject

- that would seem to make this a question that can't be answered either way, now, and for a few years to come

- sorry that no vets weighed in, and i apologize in advance if any of the posters are also vets 

but i would hope that if anyone is going to do it, they could at least try and find a way to input their experience and data somewhere where it might be collected and contribute to the overall research. vets should know how to do this and they should be knowledgeable of where data is being gathered and how to get it "into the system"

- unfortunately, what owners do who care about their dogs rarely gets attention unless there is money/profit involved ... raw feeding comes to mind 

as far as S/N goes, my personal belief is that sometime many years ago it was somehow determined by vets that there are too many dogs and cats, and the best way to curb this population explosion was simple S/N, and they added on some anecdotal medical and behavioral reasons to justify their campaign...the more the mantra was preached the more it became gospel ](*,)

thankfully over the years that opinion has been challenged... but it still hasn't progressed much farther than that, imo

frustrating to me


----------



## Nancy Jocoy

I think complicating the issue in the States is that people really have this furbaby mentality and don't appreciate a dog for what it is.

FWIW my neighbor with the feisty Welsh...dog had a turnaround when I showed her how to use a prong. He still is what he is but she does obedience with him on walks now and does not do "face to face" meetings . NOW meetings are walking next to each other and not letting the dogs interact. She "gets it".

She also went to Europe for vacation and was talking about dogs in restaurants etc. and how behaved they were and how, uh, most of the males had their balls and she feels she was lied to about a dog becoming a raving uncontrollable beast if left intact. {A point of discussion as I think Beau is one of the few intact dogs in our neighborhood and definitely one of the best behaved}


----------



## susan tuck

rick smith said:


> re: "I just spoke with her last night. She was saying how little the average vet knows about these new studies coming out on various topics. She said it's the pet owners that are the ones that get the vets looking into the new research that comes out. She just learned about the research concerning a partial hysterectomy for a spay after I got her looking into vasectomies. She said she went to a conference last year that discussed the problems in early s/n but it never once mentioned vasectomies or partial hysterectomies as an option."
> 
> kinda what i suspected and she is probably a typical example of many vets
> - advances in vet care should not have to be driven by pet owners
> - i am sure there are many university based vet research facilities. but i suspect the big money is being thrown at farm animal research that produce major incomes rather than privately owned pets and a few professional working dogs
> - i have spent a few days looking for studies, short term and long term on canine vasectomies vs typical gonadectomy procedures, and there just doesn't seem to be any studies done that were worth publishing
> - that one book ref has no scientific ref for the statement on vasectomy,,,,the one ref given did not discuss the subject
> 
> - that would seem to make this a question that can't be answered either way, now, and for a few years to come
> 
> - sorry that no vets weighed in, and i apologize in advance if any of the posters are also vets
> 
> but i would hope that if anyone is going to do it, they could at least try and find a way to input their experience and data somewhere where it might be collected and contribute to the overall research. vets should know how to do this and they should be knowledgeable of where data is being gathered and how to get it "into the system"
> 
> - unfortunately, what owners do who care about their dogs rarely gets attention unless there is money/profit involved ... raw feeding comes to mind
> 
> as far as S/N goes, my personal belief is that sometime many years ago it was somehow determined by vets that there are too many dogs and cats, and the best way to curb this population explosion was simple S/N, and they added on some anecdotal medical and behavioral reasons to justify their campaign...the more the mantra was preached the more it became gospel ](*,)


I believe PETA, HSUS and politicians interested in passing "feel good" legislation have always been and are now the driving force behind the knee jerk spay/neuter of all dogs.


----------



## susan tuck

susan tuck said:


> I believe PETA, HSUS and politicians interested in passing "feel good" legislation have always been and are now the driving force behind the knee jerk spay/neuter of all dogs.


I agree though, that veterinarians have also played a large part. People bring 8 week old puppies in for health check and the receptionists routinely asks them when they want to schedule appt for spay/neuter. Ridiculous.


----------



## Sarah Platts

rick smith said:


> kinda what i suspected and she is probably a typical example of many vets
> - advances in vet care should not have to be driven by pet owners
> - i am sure there are many university based vet research facilities. but i suspect the big money is being thrown at farm animal research that produce major incomes rather than privately owned pets and a few professional working dogs


Why not let pet owners drive some of the advances? Seems to me the experts have had their chance and have gotten complacent. Maybe it's time to shake them up a bit and get out of their in-a-rut thinking. There have been several times when a average joe-blow asks 'why are you doing it this way' and the expert says 'because that's the way it's always been done". I applaud anyones who are willing to try something new instead of staying with the way it's always been done.

While there is some money in large animals that's pretty much fixed and flat. The new money and the largest growth market is part of the multi-billion dollar pet industry market. I ran into a pet dog owner who just mortgaged his house to give his 8 year old pet dog a $20,000 new set of hips. There's alot of money in them there pet dogs. MRI's are another example. To get one done on a dog runs around $1,500-$2,000 in my neck of the woods. When I mentioned this to a health benefits advisor he called it a scam as human ones cost just a couple of hundred.


----------



## Laura Schreiner

mel boschwitz said:


> Anyone ever done a vasectomy on their male dogs in place of a regular neuter? This new dog I have is a state adoption, so by law I have to have him neutered. I checked with ACO and was told a vasectomy was allowed. He is still young, maybe a year. So I hate to deprive him of all the important growing hormones. He's super good natured. He's super super drivey to work. He showed some inclination to mark early on but not much now. All he wants to do is work.
> 
> Just wondering if anyone has done it? My vet thinks its a great idea. She doesnt want him neutered at all as he is super good looking too. But the law is the law and my boss (sheriff) would frown on my breaking it. Lol


I have a rescue Siamese Cat that was neutered at a year old. He still sulks about it.


----------



## rick smith

WTH is an old thread like this doing here now ?
it even has a response i posted EIGHT years ago !
mods should approve old threads before being restarted, especially when they contain posts from banned members


----------

