# Is Your Veterinarian Being Honest w/You--ABC News



## Kris L. Christine (Mar 25, 2009)

* Is Your Veterinarian Being Honestwith You? * ABC News 11/22/13 http://abcnews.go.com/2020/video/veterinarian-honest-20987714 (Please copy & paste link into your browser if it doesn't work by clicking on it.) 

"Pushing the Shots" at 4:31. Remember as you watch that the American Animal Hospital Association Canine Vaccine Guidelines referenced in this news article show distemper, parvo & hepatitis vaccines have a proven *MINIMUM *duration of immunity of 7 years by challenge and up to 15 years serologically. 

The *2003 American Animal Hospital Association Canine Vaccine Guidelines * http://www.leerburg.com/special_report.htm state on Page 18 that: _ “We now know that booster injections are of no value in dogs already immune, and immunity from distemper infection and vaccination lasts for a minimum of 7 years based on challenge studies and up to 15 years (a lifetime) based on antibody titer.” _ They further state that hepatitis and parvovirus vaccines have been proven to protect for a minimum of 7 years by challenge and up to 9 and 10 years based on antibody count. 

Canine parvo type 2, distemper, adeno type 1 and parainfluenza: _"These results suggest that the duration of serological response induced by modified-live vaccines against CPV-2, CDV, CAV-1 and CPiV...vaccines, is beyond 18 months and may extend up to 9 years. Accordingly, these vaccines may be considered for use in extended revaccination interval protocols as recommended by current canine vaccine guidelines." _http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23186088


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## Isaiah Chestnut (Nov 9, 2009)

My wife and I watched the show. I wonder how much this will effect their income, or if it will matter at all.


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## mel boschwitz (Apr 23, 2010)

I must be lucky. I've had to argue with my vet to get her to give some vacc's. Lol. She doesnt even carry some vaccines that are commonly given yearly. She's mentioned the occasional tartar on my dogs teeth but never recommended teeth cleaning. And she much prefers the wait and see attitude, rather than test for everything.


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## Kris L. Christine (Mar 25, 2009)

Isaiah Chestnut said:


> My wife and I watched the show. I wonder how much this will effect their income, or if it will matter at all.


It's so important that pet owners educate themselves so they can make informed vaccinal decisions for their animals. This show illustrates that they must educate themselves about dental work, etc... as well.


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## Kris L. Christine (Mar 25, 2009)

mel boschwitz said:


> I must be lucky. I've had to argue with my vet to get her to give some vacc's. Lol. She doesnt even carry some vaccines that are commonly given yearly. She's mentioned the occasional tartar on my dogs teeth but never recommended teeth cleaning. And she much prefers the wait and see attitude, rather than test for everything.


Sounds like you are very lucky!


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## Isaiah Chestnut (Nov 9, 2009)

Kris L. Christine said:


> It's so important that pet owners educate themselves so they can make informed vaccinal decisions for their animals. This show illustrates that they must educate themselves about dental work, etc... as well.


I totally agree. I wish this would happen. But, there will always be the abundant pet owners that don't research or just don't care to.


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Sadly, some vets I trust. Others must have alot of school loans to repay. My vet office raised their rates once the new guidelines came out and they need to keep up a certain income level. They offer every vaccine to me and seem real put out when I don't accept. The office just got back in one of the old vets that I trust.


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## David Baker (Aug 31, 2013)

mel boschwitz said:


> I must be lucky. I've had to argue with my vet to get her to give some vacc's. Lol. She doesnt even carry some vaccines that are commonly given yearly. She's mentioned the occasional tartar on my dogs teeth but never recommended teeth cleaning. *And she much prefers the wait and see attitude, rather than test for everything.*


Had a year old GSD die b/c of that.


On a Sunday, my boy Cain was acting a little lethargic. On friday, he had torn up my other GSD's bed out in the yard into little pieces so i thought that maybe he was blocked up. Took him to the vet on monday morning and explained what had happened. She said, "just keep an eye on him." Tue. he had gotten a lot worse. Wouldnt eat, drink, or stand, just laid there. I took him back to the vet, they "didnt" know what to do so i took him to another vet and they opened him up for exploratory surgery to run his bowel. Came back out and said that his bowel was clean as a whistle, but his pancreas looked like someone had stepped on it. It was pancreatitis. That vet had never seen a dog in such good shape and also so young that developed pancreatitis. So, long story short, the "we'll keep an eye on it" didnt fair so well for me. To throw salt on that wound, 3 months later, we had to put my other GSD down. She was 13 and 98lbs and wasn't doing well at all.


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## Kris L. Christine (Mar 25, 2009)

Sarah Platts said:


> My vet office raised their rates once the new guidelines came out and they need to keep up a certain income level. They offer every vaccine to me and seem real put out when I don't accept.


That must be an uncomfortable situation for you.


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## Eric Read (Aug 14, 2006)

David Baker said:


> Had a year old GSD die b/c of that.
> 
> 
> On a Sunday, my boy Cain was acting a little lethargic. On friday, he had torn up my other GSD's bed out in the yard into little pieces so i thought that maybe he was blocked up. Took him to the vet on monday morning and explained what had happened. She said, "just keep an eye on him." Tue. he had gotten a lot worse. Wouldnt eat, drink, or stand, just laid there. I took him back to the vet, they "didnt" know what to do so i took him to another vet and they opened him up for exploratory surgery to run his bowel. Came back out and said that his bowel was clean as a whistle, but his pancreas looked like someone had stepped on it. It was pancreatitis. That vet had never seen a dog in such good shape and also so young that developed pancreatitis. So, long story short, the "we'll keep an eye on it" didnt fair so well for me. To throw salt on that wound, 3 months later, we had to put my other GSD down. She was 13 and 98lbs and wasn't doing well at all.


sorry for your loss, but did your dog really die because of a one day "wait and see" or because he had severe pancreatitis? 

I can't say I blame the vet. You brought a dog in thinking he may have had an obstruction from tearing up a dog bed, they probably palpated and felt nothing that alarmed them, hence the watch and wait.

I'd hate to think every dog that may have an obstruction is just opened up to have a look see on a monday for every dog that has a history of being lethargic on a sunday . I have a feeling that wouldn't be so good for our animals.


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## David Baker (Aug 31, 2013)

I see what youre saying Eric, but given how lethargic he was on the day i initially took him, i would have liked them to be a little more concerned than they were. That wasn't something that i really made clear in my first post, but had you yourself seen him, you would understand where im coming from a little.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

David Baker said:


> I see what youre saying Eric, but given how lethargic he was on the day i initially took him, i would have liked them to be a little more concerned than they were. That wasn't something that i really made clear in my first post, but had you yourself seen him, you would understand where im coming from a little.


I feel terrible for you, David. I know the coulda-woulda-shoulda misery.

But honestly, from all I know from both research and experience (and I've read a ton about acute and chronic pancreatitis), I'd be thinking this was major bad luck. That is, it doesn't sound from what you posted as if you or your vet should have suspected pancreatitis. And with the red herring of having been eating a dog bed .... this seems like it would have been almost miraculous to have diagnosed pancreatitis.


(I'm not a health professional.)


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## Amber Scott Dyer (Oct 30, 2006)

On a dog that wouldn't eat, drink, or stand, I don't understand why they didn't do bloodwork and radiographs before doing surgery in the first place.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

somewhat off topic, but not entirely, so i decided to post it here.

condition of teeth/gums tells me a lot about how an owner takes care of their dog and also how well they can handle it

whenever i meet a new customer i try and look closely at the dogs teeth/gums.

first i explain that before we start training we of course need to know the dog is basically healthy, so i ask them about shots, latest vet visits and if the dog has had any med issues or injuries worth noting b4 we start

then i have the owner give me an overall "mock check" like a vet would do just to see how well they know their dog and what any owner should do on a routine basis. if they don't open the dogs mouth i ask them to, explaining how this handling is a good indicator of the overall relationship of dog to owner and how it relates health wise, etc

if the owner can't do this it is a red flag for me in terms of temperament, and of course if the teeth are bad it always indicates negligence in other areas. people who cannot get their fingers inside a dog's mouth always have other handling issues 

as far as "upselling" teeth cleaning and vax rqmnts, that is a mixed bag and my perspective also includes living in Japan, where teeth cleaning is normally done on a scheduled basis ... by the vet
- dog owners here have been "conditioned" that it is a vet's responsibility for keeping a dog's teeth clean, and are always surprised when i explain how easy it is to do it at home ... and save money 
- same applies to vaccinations. people here generally have more trust in health care professionals than americans and rarely question their opinions. almost to the point that they would consider it rude to question how often shots need to be given to their dog. and when you have requirements that are set nation wide, there is less wiggle room for differences in interpretation on a local basis
- there are a lot of other differences; just wanted to post on these two areas

and i'm not making value judgments on good or bad vets, just providing a wider perspective that all countries are not the same since we have an international group here


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## Kris L. Christine (Mar 25, 2009)

Amber Scott said:


> On a dog that wouldn't eat, drink, or stand, I don't understand why they didn't do bloodwork and radiographs before doing surgery in the first place.


Excellent point!


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

I don't know why, either. 

The pancreas is hard to see on X-rays, and a lot of blockages, such as fabric, are too. But bloodwork -- I don't know why that wouldn't have been done.


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## Eric Read (Aug 14, 2006)

you might not necessarily see the cloth blockage, but you can get a pretty good idea if there is one or not by looking at fecal matter, bowel gas, etc. 

But yes, x-ray/bloodwork would have been a good first step. But like was mentioned, we weren't there and maybe the dog looked like it didn't have long enough for any non definitive testing to be done and think out the next steps so they went right in and looked.


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## David Baker (Aug 31, 2013)

The dr that did the surgery honestly didn't have time to do blood work. He was literally dying in my truck on the way to the vet. The surgery was a last effort to save his life. Once he saw his pancreas, the only thing to do was put him to sleep. Thats how bad off he was and how quick it it took for him to get so sick. Just a couple of days. I wish the first vet would have done the blood work.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

David Baker said:


> The dr that did the surgery honestly didn't have time to do blood work. He was literally dying in my truck on the way to the vet. The surgery was a last effort to save his life. Once he saw his pancreas, the only thing to do was put him to sleep. Thats how bad off he was and how quick it it took for him to get so sick. Just a couple of days. I wish the first vet would have done the blood work.


I wish so too, David, but I can honestly see how this could happen. When the focus is on a bed the dog was eating .... and the vet didn't see him when he was so bad .... 

I'm so sorry. It sucks big time, but sometimes it's no one's fault. Sometimes it's just miserable fate.

I know how much I always want to pinpoint "why," though. 



PS
I had a dog who barely pulled through an attack of acute pancreatitis, with hospitalization for four-plus days on IV fluids and pain meds, then an antiemetic. Only an ultrasound showed the enlarged pancreas. The enzymes were in the high-but-still-normal range, and the pancreas was hazy on the x-ray; finally he said "let's get an ultrasound." The office had to borrow a machine (this was years ago) and it took several hours to get it.

It still feels to me like it was pure luck and this vet's gut feeling that pulled my girl through, and that she could very easily have died. She was so sick she could hardly pick up her head, but it took the ultrasound to see the problem.


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## David Baker (Aug 31, 2013)

I completely agree. I wasnt blaming the first vet for his death by any means, Just looking back, u wish that every option wouldve been exausted. You live and u learn. Ever since then, I am always paranoid when one of my dogs show signs of sickness


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

David Baker said:


> I completely agree. I wasnt blaming the first vet for his death by any means, Just looking back, u wish that every option wouldve been exausted. You live and u learn. Ever since then, I am always paranoid when one of my dogs show signs of sickness


I'm a little overreactive when one of my dogs isn't "right," too.

In fact, that was my pancreatitis girl's main symptom when she was so sick .... she wasn't acting "right." When she refused to eat, that was the impetus to rush her to the vet. (She was a very foody dog.)


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## Derek Milliken (Apr 19, 2009)

Connie Sutherland said:


> I don't know why, either.
> 
> The pancreas is hard to see on X-rays, and a lot of blockages, such as fabric, are too. But bloodwork -- I don't know why that wouldn't have been done.


In the past, when I've had bloodwork done on 2 suspected EPI shepherds, it required a 24 hour fast before. 
I agree with bloodwork, and radiographs in this case, but I'm assuming acute pancreatitis would also require a fast. 
So that would also require an additional 24-48 hours minimum to get an accurate diagnosis. 
Perhaps too long for the dog in question anyways?

I'm very sorry for anyone who loses a dog to "wait and see", but I am also a firm believer in being the most veterinarily educated dog owner I can be. 
And I hate to say it, but I do believe that the vast majority of an individual veterinary practice's income does come from unnecessary work 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

First, I think that most Vets are probably honest people. Trying to do best by your dog. Second, among that group of people are just probably Vets who are not that good... Though they are honest, they might lack skill and knowledge. Just like any other group of people.

I also think there are Vets who are just plain crooked, Though I would like to believe to this is not the majority of Vets. But like Mechanics who try to sell you a new starter and alternator when all you need is a new battery. I know for a fact I have been sold services I did not need, and simple solution was readily Available. I had a dog vomiting bile every night at the same time. I was new to dogs, and was worried so I went to the vet, some prescriptions and some prescription food (Bullshit in a can). I went home... Same thing happened, went to Vet, New scrips, new food. Next night same thing. Return to vet, This time blood work, X-rays. They were inconclusive. Next the Vet wanted to give the dog Barium and also scope his GI tract. I said, enough is enough...after just shy of 500.00 dollars and 3 nights of no sleep. I got online on a pet dog forum. I got the answer to my trouble. The dog was hungry. I fed the dog a little food before bed and no more vomiting. I remember telling the vet it's always bile and it's always at the same time every time. Now, I refuse to believe a College educated vet is that stupid to not know hunger can cause this. So I have concluded, and yes without proof ( I can do this, I am not a court of law, I am a man with reasoning ability and common sense)... That the vet was purposely and willfuly ripping me off. 

After a few more incidence of a different nature with the Veterinary industry I started educate myself. Here's what I found. Your Vet can only do the best they can with the information they are given. Now, before they even become a Vet the problem begins. They go to college and get taught Veterinary Science. We have the AVMA which has a massive hold on the Vet industry, a non-profit organization, working under the guise that it is to serve Vet professionals. What they really do is serve their supporters such as Hills (the dog food company, this is the single largest donator to the AVMA). Pharmaceutical companies as well as the manufactuers of Vaccines. Some other notable donators are the Delta Society ( who discretely denounce the training of sport protection dogs) The AVMA actually has no legal or governing authority over Vet medicine, at least not directly. They are in a nutshell a lobbying group. So, in order to fulfill their agenda of serving their supporters, one of their tactics is they infiltrated Colleges that teach Vet medicine. So they get the information they want Vets to have. And some of that information is directed at getting monetary gain, not the well-being of dogs. those "supporters" of the AVMA also, donate to colleges, either directly as donations or they fund "studies". Also the AVMA conducts it's own "independent" studies, which is funny to say they are independent, seeing how they are linked to these colleges through funding, and also accredits schools. Ultimatley the state licenses vets. But face it, the AVMA is basically the man behind the curtain on vet medicine. So when your Vet tells you that your dog looks wonderful for being 12 and then asks what you feed, and you say RAW... And then that very same vet who 2 minutes ago commented on the wonderful health of your dog. Starts to explain how you are killing your dog, and putting everyone in the free world in danger. It's also why they are trying to sell you vaccinations your dog does not need. 

The AVMA denouces homeopathic medicine, raw food...The promote spay and neuter as a health benefit with virtually no draw backs. They promote extensive vaccination protocols. and if they do bend on any of these....It is only after it become damaging for them to do so in the public eye. 

This organization is probably responsible for people's misgivings with Vet industry. And most Vets are just victims themselves.

Now comes the troubling part. Even if you do make the distinction between that it's more so the AVMA fault and not the vets. The Vets I have encountered will defend their profession as being pure as the driven snow. I am sure no one would like to admit that the job they have an extreme amount of passion for may in fact be flawed. This robs them of the Idea that they are the Guardians of the animals. Also no one likes to admit they have bamboozled. I mean after all they are highly educated, and they paid a pretty penny for that education. That's not an easy pill to swallow to learn you were in essence someones pawn. It is pretty evident to me that most Vets view themselves in much more brighter light. 

Now having said that. I think enlightening pet owners to get informed about the bullshit in this industry is an impossible undertaking. the fact is to most people they do not want to put in the effort to even read the back of a bag of dog food. Now, if we could get more Vets to start seeing the disease in their industry we could get somewhere.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

David Baker said:


> The dr that did the surgery honestly didn't have time to do blood work. He was literally dying in my truck on the way to the vet. The surgery was a last effort to save his life. Once he saw his pancreas, the only thing to do was put him to sleep. Thats how bad off he was and how quick it it took for him to get so sick. Just a couple of days. I wish the first vet would have done the blood work.


I had an experience with one gsd whom I had thought had crunched up an audio tape in unusual circumstances one night, but wasn't sure. Next day, I watched the dog, he seemed lethargic and a bit off, and when he started to vomit I immediately got on the phone to the vet. They told me to get him up there as soon as possible, when I arrived with the dog they were waiting for us and took us straight away. He was immediately prepared for surgery, they operated, there was tape there and had telescoped the bowel, they didn't have time to test if that was the potential and I was happy to go with it. The dog was two years old and fit as a fiddle, they attributed that to his survival.

Those vets had been very honest with me, they didn't know if he would pull through but when he got through the night, they had me come and take him home next morning and wished us luck. We were lucky!


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

I'm happy enough with my current vet, but am very cynical about the commercialism of the veterinary practice here, it is rife!! I would so hate to be an inexperienced dog owner in this day and age.


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## mel boschwitz (Apr 23, 2010)

I sent that link to a vet at the clinic I go to. She basically said there are a lot of vets she wouldnt work with. She told me once that it's the individual pet owners that tend to spur vets towards current research, especially when it's not directly in their current line of thinking. 

When I mentioned earlier about my vet having a wait and see attitude, I meant it more in the line of testing lumps and bumps, not obviously sick dogs. 

But I definately agree that we need to know our dogs, and ultimately their care is in our hands. I doubt my vet would have thought my female bh had a thyroid problem when I noticed her not acting right. And even if she had thought to do a full blood workup, it would have been at her regular lab. Since my female's bloodwork came back borderline but WNL for a few of the levels, she may well have not pushed thyroid treatment. It was my decision to send bloodwork to Dr.Dodds.

It's frustrating though. With as much money as we pay them, even if they don't pad the bill, you would like to think they have all the answers.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

_"We have the AVMA which has a massive hold on the Vet industry, a non-profit organization, working under the guise that it is to serve Vet professionals. What they really do is serve their supporters such as Hills (the dog food company, this is the single largest donator to the AVMA)."_


Yes, Hill's (the Science Diet company) has been a major supporter of the AVMA for years.

http://www.veterinarypracticenews.c...-pet-nutrition-pledges-1-million-to-avma.aspx


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

I remember the ostracism and ridicule such pioneers as Tom Lonsdale and Ian Billinghurst encountered when they stood up and called the worst of the commercial foods (corn-based) what they were.

The AVA (Australian Veterinary Association) actually banned discussion of diet in its professional journals while submitting media statements against the wayward members who had the nerve to speak up against crap in a bag.

That Australian group that banded together to speak out against the corn- and alcohol-industry-byproduct-based food in the bright shiny bags in the vet waiting rooms were, IMO, real pioneers.


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## Amber Scott Dyer (Oct 30, 2006)

I think everyone is convinced that vets are trying to make money, not do what's right, but that isn't usually the case.

most vets who still vaccinate yearly don't believe that it's detrimental to pets, since they've been doing it for years with no immediately obvious effects. to those doctors, it's a 'better safe than sorry' approach, not necessarily a 'gotta pad my pockets' approach. 

there are also a lot of doctors that think that clients won't come in for annual exams if they don't have to have vaccines every year, and that's why they're reluctant to switch to a three year protocol. there are lots of things that are caught on veterinary exams that owners wouldn't necessarily notice - heart murmurs, dental issues, sometimes masses the owners don't notice because they're in odd places. Not to mention bloodwork, which really needs to be done as an annual screening as they age. 
Unfortunately, the people that are going to be crappy pet owners are still going to be crappy whether they get vaccines every year or not, but the conscientious clients are going to still come in annually even if they don't get vaccines at all. 

still, it's all about education - both for regular people and vets - and news clips like this really don't help the cause, because they try to make it scandalous by making it seem like your vet is lying or trying to fleece you. It causes people to go into the vet office saying, "I don't want to give vaccines because I saw on 20/20 that you're just trying to make money," which is automatically going to make the staff defensive and combatant. If they had done the segment more along the lines of "did you know dog vaccine protocols are changing?" that was actually informative instead of just sensational, they could have actually made a big difference. If someone goes into their vet and says, "I've researched vaccines and these studies show that they are given too frequently and can be detrimental, so I don't want to vaccinate my dog this year. Have you seen these studies? What do you think?" then you are treated respectfully and you might help the doctor learn at the same time. JMO


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

This is interesting (about that 20/20 segment):

http://www.drernieward.com/blog/is-abcs-2020-being-honest-with-pet-owners/

It came up on another board, and I was happy that it did. There were some problems (to my eyes) with a couple of breezy dismissals in the original segment, and there's clarification and/or rebuttal here.


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