# Decoys - how do you handle your handlers?



## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

So, I'm curious. If you're a decoy and you're working the same dogs frequently how do you address (or do you not) when handlers do the things they do such as:

Giving badly timed or inconsistent corrections
Doing something counterproductive to what you are trying to do (you're trying to get the dog higher in drive and they keep smothering the dog with control for example)
Giving overly harsh or excessive corrections
Ask you to do something you believe is counterproductive
struggle to make progress despite you often suggesting a course of action you have high confidence will work
Come and train here and there, but then get lazy and let things go to crap for lengths of time
Oh, another major one... never or nearly never praising the dog
anything else I didn't list

When you answer, could you clarify if you work the dogs in a volunteer capacity or if you are compensated in some way.


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## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

And a few more
- Coming out without any idea what you want to do. I always ask my handlers "what do you want to work on" even when I know the answer is "I dunno... whatever you want". I always try and work towards getting people to take charge of their own program
- Standing on the sidelines socializing instead of listening to the current handler/dog & helper work. I get tired of saying the same crap to the second team that I just said to the first team.


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

communicate...tell them to stop wasting time...


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## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

will fernandez said:


> communicate...tell them to stop wasting time...


And if you've tried explaining a given thing in 100 different ways and it still isn't clicking, do you stop training (with) them? Or do you accept that the progress and ultimate success will be limited and just keep chugging along?


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## Adam Swilling (Feb 12, 2009)

To be honest, and I may catch flack for this, if I'm the helper it's my field. If it's an experienced handler, things tend to go easier; they usually know how/when to correct, etc. A new handler usually listens provided they WANT to learn. If it's a dog I'm familiar with I keep track of where the dog is in the training, so I know what needs to be worked on. Experienced handlers usually know what needs to be done and where the dog is so it's a non-issue. If they get lazy and the training goes to crap that's on them not me. I don't move the dog along until it's mastered what it needs to in order to move on. If a handler insists on doing something I believe is counter productive after I've explained what should be done I simply won't do the helper work; they can get someone else to do it. I preach praise and typically won't move on until they get the praise level where it needs to be. People socializing is just part of it, I don't let it bother me if I have to repeat something. If they don't want to do what I'm telling them in order to make progress, that's on them. I don't have any issues with telling someone I'm not going to work their dog is they don't want to listen. I do helper work voluntarily, so if they don't want to listen they can go somewhere else and train. I don't do this for a living so I don't care if they pout up and don't come back.


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## Robley Smith (Apr 20, 2012)

It is interesting, I hear and see some of the very same complaints at my club. I believe they are fairly universal.


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## Daniel Lybbert (Nov 23, 2010)

I think that I am the decoy. The dog does not belong to me. I am there to be a training tool for the handler. I believe the handler should come out with a plan. I always ask what the game plan is before we start.Handlers need to take responsibility for their own dog. I have seen on more than 1 occasion dogs going back in training because handlers didn't stand up for themselves and their dog. 
That being said. I believe that the handler dog and decoy make up a training team. Without the same training plan the dog just spins his wheels at best. I have a little group here and I know the dogs very well. I know the handlers well also. We have trained together regularly and we have the same basic ideas. We all watch each other and comment on what we see. After that it is not anyone's problem but the dogs owner.
Some people have a knack for training and will be good. Others will always need a coach. I offer my opinion but that is all it is. Just my opinion. I am not insulted if you don't use it.

How do you as a handler keep your decoys under control? When I work for someone new to me... I try and be pretty neutral to the dog and just try and do a good job that no one can complain about. Just get the dog to bite a new guy, with no bad experience. I am very particular who I will let help train my dog. If the dog is just getting bites I don't really care who gets bit as long as they are safe.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I think that the decoy *and* the handler must plan what is going to take place. How can a handler have a plan with a dog new to protection work?

With our club members mostly the decoy knows both handler and dog and, if not, discusses the handler's new dog with him.

Very often with a new adult dog and new or old handler, the decoy will employ a simple bite on the line to see what the dog brings to the protection scene. This takes place even if the dog has done any protection work or trials or not.

In this way there should not be any problems and, even if a new handler brags that his dog is a "monster", the decoy can test it on the line. Mostly this isn't backed up.

Some handlers tend to make the rounds of the decoys in the area - if their dog doesn't look good they go to another, and another and another.

We are lucky to have a great number of licensed helpers and I believe in sticking to the one that suits my dog's stage of development until it's time to try him out on a new helper, usually recommended by my club helper.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

I've always done dog training as a hobby, well except for a year doing some pet dog stuff 10+ years ago, so I'm getting nothing out of it except the satisfaction of seeing a team progress and reach their goals. Wether I'm decoying or coaching someone in obedience, I find that a good handler is a good handler, and a bad one is a bad one, so I don't think your questions are really decoy specific, except for safety related ones (ie bad handling can get the decoy injured). My biggest criteria is that the dog/handler team is making progress. If they are repeatedly doing things that are limiting their progress, or worse making them go backwards, and they don't seem to get it, despite myself and others in the club telling/showing them over and over and over and over and over again, then they are wasting our time. And I don't appreciate that. Even if they were paying me I wouldn't appreciate it, but I might tolerate it a little longer since I'm being reimbursed for my time. But I'm not being paid, and I don't like wasting my time, so eventually we will part ways. 

We may also part ways over a difference in training styles. If someone insists on using a training style that isn't even similar to how I train, then I will be of limited help to them, and they are probably better off going somewhere else.

If the person is to busy chatting to pay attention, or doesn't remember from week to week what they have been told, I find telling them "do what I told you last week" or "do what I told 'Fred' to do" with no other information tends to be useful towards getting them to start paying attention. When they realize I'm not going to spoon feed them everything, and constantly hold their hand, they will either start paying attention, or they will move on. If they have a hard time remembering from week to week what we are doing, I suggest they get a note pad and start taking notes each week. What they did, how it worked, what they should be doing during the week, what we planned to work on next session, etc. If they aren't willing to do that, they probably aren't willing to put the time/effort into training their dog correctly, and once again they are welcome to find somewhere else to train.


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## dewon fields (Apr 5, 2009)

Hunter Allred said:


> And a few more
> - Coming out without any idea what you want to do. I always ask my handlers "what do you want to work on" even when I know the answer is "I dunno... whatever you want". I always try and work towards getting people to take charge of their own program
> - Standing on the sidelines socializing instead of listening to the current handler/dog & helper work. I get tired of saying the same crap to the second team that I just said to the first team.


 Sounds personal to me. Our club weave out weak teams (usually handlers not dog) by making them accoutable. We have a mock trial twice a year, you must pass the entry level of your particuar sport. You will be surprised how people seem to get their SH$# together before mock trial. 

There is no conflict in the bite work area, the training director/decoy regulates that.


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## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

dewon fields said:


> Sounds personal to me. Our club weave out weak teams (usually handlers not dog) by making them accoutable. We have a mock trial twice a year, you must pass the entry level of your particuar sport. You will be surprised how people seem to get their SH$# together before mock trial.
> 
> There is no conflict in the bite work area, the training director/decoy regulates that.


I actually *really* like the idea of a mock trial. We are a new club going through new club growing pains so, we are trying to figure solutions to problems I'm sure many clubs have faced already


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Hunter Allred said:


> I actually *really* like the idea of a mock trial. We are a new club going through new club growing pains so, we are trying to figure solutions to problems I'm sure many clubs have faced already


Mock trials are an excellent way to get your feet wet, and get a really good idea of where your dog is at. It's one thing in training, with the equipment, only club members around, no nerves, etc. But if you can get another club or two in the area to come, set the field up like a trial, strange people around, no equipment, the nerves of performing in front of people, etc you will get a much more realistic idea of what might happen on trial day.


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## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> Mock trials are an excellent way to get your feet wet, and get a really good idea of where your dog is at. It's one thing in training, with the equipment, only club members around, no nerves, etc. But if you can get another club or two in the area to come, set the field up like a trial, strange people around, no equipment, the nerves of performing in front of people, etc you will get a much more realistic idea of what might happen on trial day.


I need an effective way to up the pressure and dedication in a positive manner... To keep people from perpetually training and never getting up the courage to trial, and to guide them in a very clear way what their weak points are so they take control of their own program. Sometimes it feels like I'm handling 20 dogs and that is part of the frustration of it all... Being too invested in others success. I think mock trials may address the above


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## Brett Bowen (May 2, 2011)

Hunter Allred said:


> I need an effective way to up the pressure and dedication in a positive manner... To keep people from perpetually training and never getting up the courage to trial, and to guide them in a very clear way what their weak points are so they take control of their own program. Sometimes it feels like I'm handling 20 dogs and that is part of the frustration of it all... Being too invested in others success. I think mock trials may address the above


Mock trials / evaluation days, etc are great. Especially if you can set it up for different field different decoys, etc. Even if you can't do that it's good. I know I uncovered problems I didn't really know existed. Not to mention it's good practice. 

In the end though, in my opinion the success or failure of a team is ultimately in the hands of the handler. You can't put the desire for titles, awards, etc, in someone for them. Just like you can't put drive in a dog.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Brett Bowen said:


> You can't put the desire for titles, awards, etc, in someone for them. Just like you can't put drive in a dog.


That's the truth. Sometimes the activity and presence of lesser driven members is good just for the sake of having the participation and diversity but if it gets to the point where it's counter productive then clearly it's necessary to trim the fat a bit by being straight with people and making them accountable for their own training plans/progress.

I currently represent the less desireable end of this a bit. Maybe I'm even one of those club members (more so in recent months) that bother some of the more active membership due to my frequent absence. While I am very interested in training, I'm also careful and deliberate with my training plan, mindful of others, and seek to balance the TD and more committed members time with my presence when I am able to train. I don't ever expect to receive more than I give. In fact, to compensate for that, I feel that I must give more than I receive. 

Most of all, and especially when there are breaks in my training, I make sure that there is no loss in what was gained during the time I was actively training. I'm speaking for me, not really to the situation that the OP is dealing with, but if my words help someone else out (either a less competitive/active member due to personal or work obligations or a frustrated TD/helper/decoy) then I guess that's good.


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## Brett Bowen (May 2, 2011)

Nicole Stark said:


> I currently represent the less desireable end of this a bit.


You and me both. I had the realization that the titles and competing is just not that important to me. I never could justify the time or expenses to travel for trials, there was always something more important needing one or both of those. Then there was my kids and supporting their activities. 

Luckily I found a place to train that if I can't show up for 3 weeks or so, it's not a big deal. If I could find 3-4 people that we could get everything done in an hour, I would be in heaven :lol:. I'd train everyday if I could get that.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Brett Bowen said:


> You and me both. I had the realization that the titles and competing is just not that important to me. I never could justify the time or expenses to travel for trials, there was always something more important needing one or both of those. Then there was my kids and supporting their activities.
> 
> Luckily I found a place to train that if I can't show up for 3 weeks or so, it's not a big deal. If I could find 3-4 people that we could get everything done in an hour, I would be in heaven :lol:. I'd train everyday if I could get that.


Training efficiency is very helpful. Organization and purpose fits into my value system well. Nothing like showing up and taking 25 minutes just to get the dog out of the car when there's ample opportunity to do so before hand, then moving out to the field with a random idea of what's being worked on, poor utilization of club resources (meaning plenty of people around but no one has an idea of what the person on the field is looking to accomplish during that specific session), sessions that are too long, not knowing when you are next in line, no prior planning with the TD or mentors/partners, or knocking off the training cadence by having others wait as the dog gets geared up or eliminates before being brought out.

These items are frustrating to me as a handler. Granted they are small things but collectively these actions take what could be a productive and smooth flowing 2 1/2 hr session and make it into a 4 hr one. Setting aside the naturally competitive and driven individuals where sport is concerned, these aspects might contribute in part, to why attendance fluxuates, membership fails to reach goals or make consistent progress, engagement is lacking, etc. Course for more years than I can count I've needed to plan and direct the activities for up to 50 people at a time so that kind of patterned, purposeful thought process is pretty well ingrained in me and may not come naturally to others.

To the OP, sometimes it's a matter of lacking leadership or poor organization that creates some of the problems described above. People are people and a sport club structure isn't a whole lot different from your standard business. Everyone needs to pull their weight, efficiency and performance counts towards being able to reach established goals. And, as I said before people do need to be held accountable for the aspects that they are responsible for.

Some individuals don't quite have the ability to develop a vision of what they are "building", so to speak. People need to know their individual responsibilites; receive peformance feedback; individual needs and concerns need to be addressed; work unit goals, role and progess need to be communicated, etc. This feeds some pretty basic communication fundamentals that need to be part of the ground work in establishing objectives and reaching goals. JMO

All that aside, just because being competitive in sport isn't a priority of mine that doesn't mean that I don't have the capacity to understand my role in contributing to healthy club dynamics and contribute accordingly.


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## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

Nicole Stark said:


> Training efficiency is very helpful. Organization and purpose fits into my value system well. Nothing like showing up and taking 25 minutes just to get the dog out of the car when there's ample opportunity to do so before hand, then moving out to the field with a random idea of what's being worked on, poor utilization of club resources (meaning plenty of people around but no one has an idea of what the person on the field is looking to accomplish during that specific session), sessions that are too long, not knowing when you are next in line, no prior planning with the TD or mentors/partners, or knocking off the training cadence by having others wait as the dog gets geared up or eliminates before being brought out.
> 
> These items are frustrating to me as a handler. Granted they are small things but collectively these actions take what could be a productive and smooth flowing 2 1/2 hr session and make it into a 4 hr one. Setting aside the naturally competitive and driven individuals where sport is concerned, these aspects might contribute in part, to why attendance fluxuates, membership fails to reach goals or make consistent progress, engagement is lacking, etc. Course for more years than I can count I've needed to plan and direct the activities for up to 50 people at a time so that kind of patterned, purposeful thought process is pretty well ingrained in me and may not come naturally to others.
> 
> ...


So I should clarify I guess. I don't care or feel like pushing everyone to title/compete/whatever. I want to push people to identify a goal, and pursue that goal with some vigor. If someone said "I don't care about a title, I just want to train my dog to be able to upon command enter my home, search within it, and let me know its empty or guard the intruder if it is not"... so long has i see effort to achieve the goal I'd be happier and I'd know my pains to help them are not in vain. 

We also have those who have the drive and motivation but lack the vision, know how, etc. Presently we do lack sound club leadership. I do all the helper work and am actively training/competing two dogs, handle some administrative functions, and trying to fill a training director role all at the same time... I cannot take on anymore. As it is, I'm the first to IPO1, IPO2, and will be the first to IPO3 a dog at our club. I think one member has titled a dog, but this was many years ago long before this club existed.

One idea I had is to have each member identify their goal, and be assigned a mentor who has already achieved that goal... sort of to distribute the TD role across what members we have and get the help to where the help is needed.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Hunter Allred said:


> One idea I had is to have each member identify their goal, and be assigned a mentor who has already achieved that goal... sort of to distribute the TD role across what members we have and get the help to where the help is needed.


I saw this in practice last summer within our own club. It works and is a good idea. It's important to try and match either the potential of the dog or the training styles for that to work though.

Frankly, I think it's a good idea to have an interactive feedback process. End of session recap, something both the TD (or spotter) and handler need to have input on. Primary goals/expectations of the session, what went well, what was lacking, activities and focal point for the following week with a member declaration made in advance of the next training session, which establishes what the new plan is, who or what is needed for support, and perhaps if a film review is necessary when new things or problem areas are being worked on.

But then I am an over communicator and can be too particular about details and organization - probably to a fault. It's why I won't allow myself to cross the line to get in the mindset of being competitive. I don't like what it does to me. There's very lttle moderation once I make a decision about initiating something. Screwing around and not taking things too seriously usually offers a counterbalance for that over the top edge or drive that comes out in me at times.

Besides, I could see myself getting way too invested in my own success or that of others and then my expectations and tolerance with certain things would change possibly in a way that could invite conflict where there currently is very little to none.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Have a game plan BEFORE you hit the field. During the wrap up session, use an OPEN CRITIQUE of behaviors and issues rather than focusing on one person. Often times many people will make similar errors and giving someone a way out doesn't make them look like a fool!


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