# Seizure Alert Canine Training



## Sammy Walker (Jan 27, 2009)

Does anyone know where I can find out and study the training methods for these type of canines? My 6 year old is having severer gran mal seizures at night while asleep. Thank you in advance. Also if you know someone that has experience in this field please let me know.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

it's been asked here b4 ... no resources offered

i suggest you start from the other end.
check the epilepsy foundation and other med resources that deal with seizures. they know of the research and once you hit the right group they might be able to steer you to a canine resource
- decide if you want seizure alert or seizure response ... two different venues

i assume you have already started medical treatment. obviously your provider should be able to assist you in your search and if they are narrow minded and laff it off, get another med provider

can i assume you're in the states and don't want me to try and find a resource here in Japan ?


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

here is a link that seems to be stateside ;
http://4pawsforability.org/seizure-assistance-dog/

they have a nice web site, but i would want to see alert dogs that they have trained before i would give them my money.

they do discuss the differences between alert and response and state they go more into the response type ...which sounds more like a nice therapy pet dog to me

but later down in the site they also say they can train for seizure alert too
- i would make them put some beef in that burger b4 i would take it at face value

the main obstacle i see for training alert is to find a way to imprint the "source odor" that is given off prior to a seizure

i've heard it's been done but never seen it done

good luck and keep us posted


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## David Winners (Apr 4, 2012)

Sammy Walker said:


> Does anyone know where I can find out and study the training methods for these type of canines? My 6 year old is having severer gran mal seizures at night while asleep. Thank you in advance. Also if you know someone that has experience in this field please let me know.


Imprinting on the odor and pairing it to a trained response is the easy part. Training the dog to be in public is often the hard part. Collecting the odor sample is a matter of using gauze pads placed inside clothing, or cutting pieces of clothing from the subject after the seizure. You would do this with gloves on, and then proof the dog off of clothing, gauze pads and gloves while imprinting the dog.

If you want more info, a great place to start is http://www.diabeticalertdog.com/. They have an active forum as well as a lot of free information.

There are a ton of links I have for training this stuff, but it's pretty common sense odor indication. I used marker training to teach my CC puppy a nose bump alert for my wife (low blood sugar) in about 3 weeks time. I ended up leaving, so he needs some more OB work to be hanging out in Wal-Mart with the wife, but his alerts are very solid, even when he's asleep.

I trained response to odor like I would a bomb dog, but there are other ways illustrated on the web site I mentioned. There are a couple of YouTube videos produced by the owner of the site that take you through all the steps she uses to train her dogs. She drives me nuts on the videos, but there is all the info you need to get the dog to alert.

An important note: odor samples don't have to come from the specific person the dog is being trained to alert for. If the seizures are infrequent, you can purchase samples from sources to imprint the dog.

Another note: alerting while asleep is never guaranteed. There is no way of knowing of the dog will do this or not.

If I can be of further help, let me know. I'd be willing to do a Skype or telephone conference if you are interested. I'm really sorry to hear about your kid. That's tough.


BTW, I think this forum is a great place to get this figured out. Medical alert dogs aren't anything other than detection dogs trained to respond on their own instead of after a search command. The odor signature of the person is usually very large, by comparison to cocaine or TATP, so it's pretty easy to get the dog to alert. There are a lot of intelligent people here with a lot of varied experience that could help steer you in the right direction, is so inclined.

ETA: I would never pay $20,000 for an already trained alert dog.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

assuming we are talking about alert vice response/assistance

the OP stated gran mal seizures
may not have the same odor as a diabetic 

my father suffered gran mal seizures that were not at all related to diabetes, so i'm not convinced diabetic related odor samples would be effective to use for all types of seizure disorders
...my line of thinking is if the seizures are brought on due to neurological misfires it might be hard to come up with a sample kit to imprint with

i have never seen any video of a dog alerting during the onset of a seizure, but this interests me so i'm looking thru youtube
- my friend here who is a neurologist and somewhat dog savvy feels the symptoms are only partially odor related if at all, and he doesn't have a closed mind regarding the potential for canine detection

i also kinda got the idea the OP wants to get a dog and learn how to train this himself 
T/F ???
- that might require some previous detection training experience ??


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## David Winners (Apr 4, 2012)

rick smith said:


> assuming we are talking about alert vice response/assistance
> 
> the OP stated gran mal seizures
> may not have the same odor as a diabetic
> ...


If I didn't separate the two I'm my post, I apologize. The seizures I am referring to are not blood sugar related, but GM. They are different odors.

There are 2 videos that the trainer from the web site posted that explain very well how yo imprint the dog. I agree that it may take much longer for a green trainer, but I see nothing stopping a mildly dog savvy person from imprinting a dog.

I'm trying to take my experience into account when I state that it really is pretty easy, especially with the strip by step video.

David Winners


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

David Winners said:


> If you want more info, a great place to start is http://www.diabeticalertdog.com/. They have an active forum as well as a lot of free information.
> 
> Another note: alerting while asleep is never guaranteed. There is no way of knowing of the dog will do this or not.
> 
> ...


Dave, 

FYI seizure alert dogs are not diabetic alert dogs. Seizures are in basic layman's terms an overload or short circuit of the body's electrical system. There are less tell-tales with impending seizures than there are with diabetes because there are ways to test for blood sugar that you can't do with seizures. Seizures are a slightly different kettle of fish.


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

rick smith said:


> i have never seen any video of a dog alerting during the onset of a seizure, but this interests me so i'm looking thru youtube
> - my friend here who is a neurologist and somewhat dog savvy feels the symptoms are only partially odor related if at all, and he doesn't have a closed mind regarding the potential for canine detection
> 
> i also kinda got the idea the OP wants to get a dog and learn how to train this himself
> ...


There are alot of stories about family pets reacting to medical emergencies. The basic underlying thread seems to be that the pet was very close or well bonded to the person involved. It might not be anything more than that. Dog senses the impending change and becomes more attentive, clingy, pawing, whining, etc because they sense something is wrong. My dogs react to my illnesses and I'm betting most everyone else's do too. The key seems to be paying attention to the dog and reacting with them when they start acting strange.


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## David Winners (Apr 4, 2012)

Sarah Platts said:


> Dave,
> 
> FYI seizure alert dogs are not diabetic alert dogs. Seizures are in basic layman's terms an overload or short circuit of the body's electrical system. There are less tell-tales with impending seizures than there are with diabetes because there are ways to test for blood sugar that you can't do with seizures. Seizures are a slightly different kettle of fish.


I will state this unequivocally that I understand that GM seizures and hypoglycemic seizures are 2 different things and 2 different odors. There are odors present for both conditions and they can be trained for. 

I must have not made this clear in my previous posts. I apologize for that.

People smell different right before they have a GM seizure, in the same way, but with a different odor, that they smell different when their blood sugar varies.

Training seizure dogs is the same as training hypoglycemic dogs, is the same as training hyperglycemic dogs, is the same as training panic attack dogs, is the same as training bomb dogs. The odor is there. You train a behavior what you want to use for a response. You capture the odor you want to train for. You teach the dog to respond to the target odor.


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

Hi Sammy, I'm sorry to hear the news. 

I have JME and petit mals with a history of one grand mal in the past. I have had active seizures since I was 10 years old.

Unfortunately seizure alerting is not something that can be trained. A dog alerts on seizures or it doesn't. You canNOT train that behavior. I find some of the information stated above to be incorrect as I have looked very much into this subject, having epilepsy myself.

However, you CAN train seizure RESPONSE dogs, and there are links provided for more information there.


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

Also, I would recommend joining the Coping With Epilepsy forum. It's fantastic!


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## David Winners (Apr 4, 2012)

Katie Finlay said:


> Hi Sammy, I'm sorry to hear the news.
> 
> I have JME and petit mals with a history of one grand mal in the past. I have had active seizures since I was 10 years old.
> 
> ...


Sorry if I misled anyone. I was referring to the material I used to train my medical alert dog, which led me to believe what I stated.

Thanks Katie.

David Winners


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Katie,

thanks for clearing that up. I picked up one guy (was ALS on an ambulance) who told me that he would catch the odor of bug spray right before he had a seizure. Not enough time for him to react but it would be the last thing he remembered. He's the only one that ever told me of a precursor.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

Katie, as an epileptic, would you consider either of these possible ?

1. when they start manufacturing a reliable and consistent "Pseudo seizure symptom", people can start training detection animals for it. (i'm not holding my breath)

2. i think the claims of "alert" dogs are probably examples of closely bonded pets who are incredibly velcroed to their owners and able to sense a lot more than just an odor. they might be able to piece together a cluster of physiological, chemical and behavioral symptoms and connect the dots because they have been conditioned to knowing what that set of dots had produced in previous seizure episodes. since they know the outcome and it distresses them, they show conflict or anxiety in advance, and that in essence, becomes their "alert" indicator. 

anyway, that's my highly UNscientific take on alerting to the symptoms of a pending seizure

and nothing extraordinary....i think most dogs can read their owners better than the owners can read them. they've had to for a long long time ...and they can't talk


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

I had a nice post typed but it was deleted.

To summarize, epilepsy is entirely different for everyone that has it. No one person has the same condition. I think if we knew what the actual alert dogs alerted on, and every person with epilepsy had this odor or whatever happen for every type of seizure, we could train alert dogs.

But we don't know. Some people have only one type of seizure, others have all types of seizures. Some have auras for all, some for a few, and some never have auras. Some people have triggers, like photosensitivity, others don't. Some even have normal EEGs when they're having grand mals every hour.

It's an extremely complicated condition that we don't even fully understand. We don't have a cure. In fact, we hardly even have any treatment for it. IMO we are a very long way off from having alert dogs.


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## David Winners (Apr 4, 2012)

http://seizurealertproject.blogspot.com/


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

It still isn't successful, and until it's widespread I consider it impossible. There are A LOT of scams regarding seizure "alert" dogs. 

Studies are excellent, but they still have a loooong way to go.


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## John DiStano (Jan 30, 2014)

Sammy - Check out http://www.dog-trainer.biz/ She's located in NJ and does training for kids with autism. She may be able to aim you in the right direction. John D.


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## David Winners (Apr 4, 2012)

Katie Finlay said:


> It still isn't successful, and until it's widespread I consider it impossible. There are A LOT of scams regarding seizure "alert" dogs.
> 
> Studies are excellent, but they still have a loooong way to go.


I disagree. There are successful seizure alert dogs. We may not understand it yet, but to me that lack of comprehension is not a failure of the ability of the dog, but rather of our understanding.

What is "widespread" to you? I'm not of the opinion that I should wait until 1000 dogs have been successfully trained before I'm willing to attempt the training myself. If my kid was having seizures, I would be training the dog to alert me to them, and I would attempt to train the dog to detect their onset. JMHO

I agree that there are many scams in the medical alert dog world. There are also many good dogs out there.

David Winners


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

I didn't say the dogs couldn't do it, but the VAST majority of alert dogs were never trained. I actually don't know of any personally that were.

This disease is extremely misunderstood, and it's not as simple as teaching odor, IMO.

I know. I live it with it every day.


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

I would like to see several hundred dogs trained successfully with a complete understanding of the process before I would ever recommend someone spend thousands of dollars on what's very likely going to be a lost cause.

We have enough to worry about. Jmo.


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

Also, I do want this to be studied and done. I just don't think it's currently been accomplished.


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## Sammy Walker (Jan 27, 2009)

Thank you everyone for your help. I will give you a little more info. on our situation. We got custody of our grandson (Wyatt) when he was 3 months old due to severe child abuse. He had 12 broken bones, and 10 old fractures. He had 3 skull fractures. This is very important.( He only has the gran mal seizures while he is sleeping). This is why it is so dangerous. I'm a retired LEO canine trainer and feel that with the right training protocol I could train an Alert canine. I greatly appreciate all your help and advice. God Bless You All

Sammy Walker & Family[-o<


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

before you check out of the thread ....

Sammy, the two questions i posed to Katie were not made to be sarcastic in any way. they were serious and written to be in plain language, and i also tried to give an explanation why there may be some dogs who are able to alert in a way that MIGHT have prevented a seizure. and i sure as heck wasn't demeaning the value of a pet as compared to a professional working dog. but i do say those rare cases would be hard to prove for the simple fact that many many accurate indications would be needed to give credibility for the detection rate of any specific canine.

anyway, what you are talking about is detection no matter how you label it, and alert and response has been accepted by most as the two types when referring to seizures. 
- i am NOT talking about any type of RESPONSE to a seizure because i firmly believe that can be trained. but alerting to the onset of symptoms is a whole different ball game

essentially all "protocols" are the same when training a canine for detection. canines learn to react and indicate the presence of a SCENT source using their NOSE. narcotics, explosives, specific electrical components, human remains, currency, birch oil....whatever. the source list is endless
IF a seizure could be predicted by scent any decent detection trainer can train a canine to recognize that scent. 
- but ..... 
what is the "odor source" for the symptoms of a gran mal seizure, and show me where you can locate or prcure that source to train a dog with ? of course you know it isn't on the market, and you can't buy "pseudo seizure symptoms". that's pretty obvious
- do you, or for that matter ANYONE else who trains, think it is NOT a necessary starting point before you can train a detection dog to recognize the symptoms of a gran mal seizure ??

next, i asked about what your medical provider has explained to you. i know a neurologist who is VERY familiar with the medical physiology of gran mal seizures, and INFINITELY more knowledgeable than canine detection trainers. he firmly believes their is no substance that can be synthesized that will represent the onset of a seizure that could be sold to dog trainers. i won't write up a long list of details why he does not think the symptoms of a gran mal seizure are primarily odors, even tho he does think there might be an odor component, but i do think an experienced neurologist could explain them all to you 

- but how can you train a dog if you only have a piece of the puzzle to give it ?? 
- and what if the dog needs another senses, such as taste, sight or hearing ?? could you learn to train that "detection mix", even if that cluster of symptoms was clearly identified ? imo, that certainly WOULD require more than the current detection training protocols

- anyway, i'm not trying to be negative at all, and i AM suggesting you get a good dog that will bond closely with him and you should learn to be a good observer. that can't possibly hurt and will certainly give comfort where it might be needed

.... bottom line for me is i would suggest you focus on RESPONSE vice alert. the type and/or breed of dog best suited for this type of situation would probably be a better thread and more productive, imo

i wish you luck in whatever you decide to do. stay positive but don't lose sight of reality either


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## David Winners (Apr 4, 2012)

Rick, to address a couple of points.

Many blood sugar dogs are trained by the handler blowing in the dogs face and then rewarding. No samples are taken, just live odor when in the right glucose range. I would approach it the same way.

If the person the dog is being trained for its present, and the trainer is ready to go at any time, the dog may theoretically be trained during a seizure.

If this training was successful, the dog may lead us, by watching where the dog responds, to the source of odor. The actual odor, or our ability to manufacture a synthetic substitute, would be of no importance. I trained the wife's dog from samples gathered from her during a low episode. 

This is all hypothetical of course, but the route I would take.

David Winners


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## Meg O'Donovan (Aug 20, 2012)

David, does this mean looking for the dog's natural response (behavior) when it is with the person in seizure, noting the pattern, and paying heed to that?


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## David Winners (Apr 4, 2012)

Meg O'Donovan said:


> David, does this mean looking for the dog's natural response (behavior) when it is with the person in seizure, noting the pattern, and paying heed to that?


Your question isn't very detailed, but I think I understand what you are asking.


If the dog is taught to respond to the seizure while it is happening, logic says that the dog will begin to predict the seizure if there is a detectable odor that precedes the seizure. Classical conditioning would pair the odor to the oncoming seizure and the dog would respond. The natural behavior you refer to would be the dog showing interest that differs from normal investigative behavior. Detection people call it a change of behavior.

As the association gets built, it would make sense that the dog would exhibit this change of behavior and may pinpoint the source of the odor it is responding to. 

Again, all this is hypothetical and based on other detection principles.

The response or cue that the dog would offer the handler to alert can be any behavior you choose to train.


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## Meg O'Donovan (Aug 20, 2012)

My question wasn't clear, but your answer was. Thanks.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Sammy, good luck to Wyatt. It sounds like he's been through a lot.

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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