# working puppy vs pet puppy



## Lindsay Janes (Aug 9, 2007)

I am curious how different do you raise your working puppy from a pet puppy? How would you correct the jumping and biting from the working puppy? What kind of game would you encourage the puppy to play beside tug of war? How about hide and seek? 

All puppies that I grew up with were pet. When we don't want them to jump, we would turn our back to them. If they tried to bite our hands, sometimes we would do the alpha roll or hold their front legs and head up to calm them down. When they whine or cry for attention, sometimes we ignore them. 

My parents always keep them in the kitchern with a baby gate, but when we can't watch it. We put it in the crate. 

Ed Frawley sells raising a working puppy video, but I don't know if I want to buy that. I bought two dvd from him; Dog dominant dvd and Building drive and focus with Bernard Flinks. None of his video are closed captioned. I watched both dvd and I have no clue what he is talking about. I saw a few "correct" and "incorrect" video of how to train a dog. Yeah I know it sucks.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Someone perpetuated a "myth" that working pups need some different sort of raising.

Well, if you raise your puppy pretty much how you were describing, and it turns out not so hot........it was never that hot to begin with. Just use common sense. Everyone tries to get the "first" one right. Well, even if you are sleeping with someone that has trained to the highest levels, you are still gonna **** things up.

Best to just relax and enjoy the dog. Don't put the dog in "blind" situations that you are not sure of the outcome. (decoys, or helpers) and you will be OK.


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## Lindsay Janes (Aug 9, 2007)

So it is all myth right? Should I not be too worried about it? Let it go whatever I was taught how to raise a puppy before? I'm just want to make sure I m doing the right thing, not making any major mistakes. I want to make sure I have a confident outgoing puppy who is not afraid of anything. I'm sure I will make a mistake once in a while, but I hope it is not too many.


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

I raise my working pups how I would raise a pet... but how I would raise a pet isnt how most other people would raise a pet.

If the jumping gets on my nerves I kick the pup in the chest hard as I can, if he does it again I know I got a keeper... :lol: OK kidding... but yeah, I'm pretty relaxed about "manners" as long as the obedience is good so I can tell em to knock it off when it gets annoying (when they are older). My pups are 6 months old and they don't know much other than "GOD DAMNIT YOU ******* LIL ****HEAD WHY DO YOU JUMP AROUND IN YOUR POOP!!! STOP THAT ****", and some basic "come" "sit" "down" stuff 

As for biting, I just have food on me all the time, it takes their mind off biting me.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Yes, there are many breeders that use this "mythical" raising process to put the blame on when the dog turns out to be the piece of shit he was destined to be.

Most "normal" people are not going to do anything that would **** up a dog that has what it takes. 

If you ever saw me with a pup in the 80's, by todays weak ass standards the dog should collapse never to recover. Matter of fact, they did just fine, and I was way more brutal then anything that you "think" you might be.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

It is all myth. It is all about conditioning all the pups so the buyer can't tell the good from the bad. All this special puppy rearing is only for the bebefit of the unconfident ones. The gooduns are not that fragile. Doesn't take a lot to screw a sorry dog up but, like Mike's example of kicking them in the chest, if they come back he is a keeper. It takes quite a bit to screw up a really good dog....but I know some people that can do it.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: It takes quite a bit to screw up a really good dog....but I know some people that can do it.

Don, how often does that happen with your lot??? I guess the big question, since your customers are hunters and such, do they screw it up that much????

Just wondering, as your dogs look a bit sturdier (read lots) than many of the breeds we deal with.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Manners and training are two separate issues. I have no problems letting my dogs know that no teeth touch family members. 
I've not had any issue with either my hunting terriers or my Schutzhund dog knowing the difference.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: It takes quite a bit to screw up a really good dog....but I know some people that can do it.
> 
> Don, how often does that happen with your lot??? I guess the big question, since your customers are hunters and such, do they screw it up that much????
> 
> Just wondering, as your dogs look a bit sturdier (read lots) than many of the breeds we deal with.


Jeff, my own view on that is the average 12-14 lb working terrier is a LOT sturdier then most 30-40 lb "average" dogs.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

It happens Jeff. People that know better screw up at times and don't think.
I have seen them take pups to the 4th of July fireworks shows, or here is a real common one, they take old blue who is gun shy big time out to check out the pup and crank off a box of .06's. The pup see's old blue in a panic and follows suit. Then there are those that beilieve in the sink or swim method of introducing a dog to water. Now, the dogs will swim with no problem but, when tossed in in the dead of winter, I wouldn't think it was going to be something they were going to look foreward to next time. I do some pretty stupid things at times myself, but, have a reason normally. I have fired 45/70 over a pups head ( he was standing between me and the dogs with a 300 lb boar.) He jumped and ran straight to me and turned and ran back to the boar because he was trying to stay on his feet. His recovery was immediate and guns don't bother him at all because he is deaf. Just kidding. Using that writers whatever you called it to make a point. Some of the things like that incedent told me a lot about really high prey drive dogs. When they are wound tight looking at the next victim, that drive will override just about anything you do. Another example, I do on occassion, run several alphas on a hunt. I road one and use the others as turn in dogs when the one strikes a good track. They are so focused on the hunt and game that they work ok together. Never have a problem except trying to inflict more damage than the other on a hog....I think they call it competition to see who can get cut the worst. Now they hunt fine because the prey drive over rides the fight and they know the real fight is with the hog. Now, they get back to the truck, they know the hunt is over. My main equalizer is the old hot shot...when the hunt is over, all it takes from the boys at the top is eye contact and it is down and dirty. Hunter is the first that has to be picked up and boxed all the time. Dang, I have even run over my own dog when hunting. Somethimes **** just happens. Had to try that asterisk thing.
Question. When a dog is in high prey or whatever you want to call it(adrenaline spike), do you see that as a good time to introduce something that may be a bit iffy at most normal times?


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

I hate all the conflicting stuff I hear on raising working puppies worse than about anything else I hear about training. Don't correct them for mouthing or jumping or you'll hurt their drive. Do correct them for mouthing or jumping or they won't respect you. Don't let other people pet them because it will take you away from being center of attention and make them too soft. Do let other people pet them because it's bound to happen anyways and you don't want a lawsuit. Don't start them too young. Start them extra early. Jeez people, can't you all agree on anything besides what another trainer is doing wrong? ;-) :lol:


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## Lyn Chen (Jun 19, 2006)

What do you guys think about the petting vs. no petting thing by strangers? I've done the exposure, but no petting thing with two consecutive dogs and one is very friendly to strangers and one wants to eat them big time. So I'm guessing it does nothing. Would letting strangers pet them help some if the dog is inclined to be very nasty?


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: Question. When a dog is in high prey or whatever you want to call it(adrenaline spike), do you see that as a good time to introduce something that may be a bit iffy at most normal times?

Yes, this is a common way to work on things like the gun, or accessories, which is the crazy things people come up with in Mondio to block the dog from the bite.

This works pretty well on dogs with strong prey, but not so good nerve. Not sure that I am explaining this correctly, but the idea is to get the dog to figure out that all the hoopla is not that big of a deal.

I had forgotten about the infamous, "throw the pup in the water trick" I have had several people tell me they lost lab pups that way.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

The petting thing is something that I had never heard of until I had been doing this stuff for a long time. 

I personally have had dogs that just did not want to be touched by people that they did not know, and would bite them. It was all matter of fact, and no hackles or growling. The first one I had produced a lot of little ones that were like that.

In this case, the no petting rule was a matter of not having big time problems every time I went somewhere. People get a bit freaked when you crack on a dog that YOU know is gonna bite, but they do not.

The dogs I have now, I could care less if people want to pet them. In my mind, a dog needs to be able to figure out who is weird, and who is harmless. Hard for them to do with out exposure to people.


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## Lindsay Janes (Aug 9, 2007)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> I hate all the conflicting stuff I hear on raising working puppies worse than about anything else I hear about training. Don't correct them for mouthing or jumping or you'll hurt their drive. Do correct them for mouthing or jumping or they won't respect you. Don't let other people pet them because it will take you away from being center of attention and make them too soft. Do let other people pet them because it's bound to happen anyways and you don't want a lawsuit. Don't start them too young. Start them extra early. Jeez people, can't you all agree on anything besides what another trainer is doing wrong? ;-) :lol:


 All those things you listed make me paranoid! :lol: Eheh.. Maybe its stupid to think like that, but I feel sometimes expert knows better. Something they have tried really work or help with some issues that I might face later.


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## Julie Ann Alvarez (Aug 4, 2007)

Mike Schoonbrood said:


> I raise my working pups how I would raise a pet... but how I would raise a pet isnt how most other people would raise a pet.
> 
> If the jumping gets on my nerves I kick the pup in the chest hard as I can, if he does it again I know I got a keeper... :lol: OK kidding... but yeah, I'm pretty relaxed about "manners" as long as the obedience is good so I can tell em to knock it off when it gets annoying (when they are older). My pups are 6 months old and they don't know much other than "GOD DAMNIT YOU ******* LIL ****HEAD WHY DO YOU JUMP AROUND IN YOUR POOP!!! STOP THAT ****", and some basic "come" "sit" "down" stuff
> 
> As for biting, I just have food on me all the time, it takes their mind off biting me.


LMAO---- that is how I raise pups in a nut shell. I always try to have a toy on me so they aren't eating my pant leg (((ruined a few pairs of trousers from puppy tugging))).

Peace :lol: 

Julie


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

This no petting crap drives me crazy. I don't see the point and I even bought into it for a while. Just let people pet the damn dog unless the dog is antisocial by genetics. If being pet by other people means the dog turns to crap then he probably wasnt any good anyway. I don't like just any old idiot running up and petting my dog, but if its someone that I am talking to then fine.


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## Lyn Chen (Jun 19, 2006)

The good thing about my dog is he isn't pretty enough to make people want to pet him most of the time. But after I found out that he will bite without blinking an eye if someone out on the street becomes forward with him, I now walk him with a muzzle and a prong up my ass (figuratively speaking). It's a pain, and I've exposed him to a lot of people when he was young. They just didn't touch him. (They didn't want to, he was a very ugly puppy, and I didn't want to be that weird girl begging people to please touch her dog). 

My next puppy though I'm going to make an effort to make him approachable by friendly people. I hope I don't end up with a love sponge like my female, though; that behaviour is equally annoying.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

I tend to have a "sink or swim" attitude with my pups. I'm going to raise a dog I can live with, although that doesn't mean they will be nearly as polite as my sister's pet dog LOL But they will have house manners, be able to go out in public, be handled by my son who does a lot of the cleaning and feeding, and work. If having a few manners put on them means they can't work, they weren't destined to live with me anyway, because my training style can be just as haphazard as my raising style, so they wouldn't have "survived" that either anyway. Dogs have to be fairly resilient to make it at my house. I have to many dogs and to little time to mess around with a dog who isn't with the program working wise, who can't handle the occasional blunder because I'm using them to train a new decoy, who once they are mature (I usually try to wait that long LOL) can't handle my tendency to say "let's just throw it at them and see what happens" OR even worse, and yes I've said this about a number of dogs "let's see if we can blow them up"

But that's how I raise my dogs. If someone comes to me with Rex, their new working prospect, and I know this person is never going to part with Rex wether he makes it or not in the program, they will just keep him as a pet or find a different program he's better suited to, then how I will tell them to raise that pup is completely different.


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Puppies are allowed almost everything, without telling no. They don´t live in the house, born& raised in the kennel. Only manners they learn is pottytraining, "come" and "enough" before 8 mo-1yr. They see things, different suroundings, clubmembers and dogpeople are allowed to pet if the dogs wants to.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> I'm going to raise a dog I can live with...


Yup, and that's why I bought a pup from you.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

I'm mostly a no-petter but I pretty much agree with all the comments on here. It depends on the dog - if the dog is too into being petted - then no petting. If the dog is at all shy then definitely allow and encourage petting.

I guess the only thing I would do differently is between pet and sport dogs is for pet dogs I have the rule "You don't touch me - I touch you." Meaning I wouldn't allow a pet dog to mouth me, jump on me etc - but I wouldn't be correcting it overly roughly either.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

I'm with Selena except mine come in the house. I just find it a lot easier to allow them to grow up rather than put a lot of work into a young pup. I don't let people pet my pups or dogs but not because I'm worried about drives, I just don't like strangers or kids putting their grubby hands on my dogs. The only socializing I do with my dogs is with relatives, friends & their dogs. My pups chew on me & jump on me all they want, we play a lot. I do redirect the worst of the biting with a rag, toy or ball. One thing is I don't want my dog to grow up thinking he has to be subordinate to anyone but me. Some may think I'm crazy, but all my dogs grow up very well adjusted in spite of spoiling them.


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## Amanda Layne (Aug 9, 2006)

Not that I have a ton of experience in this department........but I socialize the crap out of my dogs. I also.....want dogs I can live with, dogs I can take in public, dogs I can have around people, and ALL of my dogs (5 of them) live in my house. I agree with the "if they cant handle it, they werent cut out for it" crowd. I think there are alot of things that you can do to screw up a dog, but I dont think that most of them have to do with meeting new people, or being exposed to new things. If anything, I feel like it helps me to see what their strengths and weaknesses are.

My first dobe Rommel.......is not very social. Well......he is, but he has to "know" you. He is of the mindset that you are guilty until proven innocent. He also doesnt have the best nerves....

My young bitch Ziris can go anywhere, meet anyone, fine with new people, kids, whatever.....she is very clear headed, and much better at determining a "potential threat" vs. a non threatning person. I prefer this to the previous. She is confident in all situations....I wouldnt want her any other way.

Just my opinion


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

I don't think socializing has much of an effect on a well bred pup, unless you really go out of go out of your way to make the dog suspicious or nuts. I don't socialize my pups, yet they grow up to be steady & reliable in social situations. I really believe good breeding for good nerves has more to do with it than what I do with the pup.


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

My pups haven't seen a whole heck of alot due to circumstance, 6 months old now and nothing bothers them. My Dutchie was socialized alot and she really needs alot more because her nerves in non-working situations are a little thin. As Susan said, genetics play a huge role and it should really depend on the dog.


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## Daniel Cox (Apr 17, 2006)

Mike Schoonbrood said:


> This no petting crap drives me crazy. I don't see the point and I even bought into it for a while. Just let people pet the damn dog unless the dog is antisocial by genetics. If being pet by other people means the dog turns to crap then he probably wasnt any good anyway. I don't like just any old idiot running up and petting my dog, but if its someone that I am talking to then fine.


This is exactly how I feel and the advice I give to new dog owners. All I have to say is genetics and nerves are the big factor here.


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