# Should we clone the Kaiser?



## Ashley Foster (Jun 14, 2012)

We've been asked to take part in a project where our dog, Vongalanberg Kai, could be cloned as part of a TV documentary in the UK.

Here is the video explaining why Kai deserves to be a candidate (please watch it before reading the rest) http://youtu.be/fKaqgGAcs94 

When the production company approached us our initial reaction was a definite 'yes' for all the reasons described in that video. We came 7th in the World with Kai but it would be wonderful to know whether we could achieve the same or even better if we had another chance.

However, a number of doubts started to creep into or thoughts. Firstly after a bit of inquiry it became quite clear that the kennel club would never give the clone a pedigree, meaning we wouldn't be able to compete with the dog beyond a local club level, let alone enter the World Championships!

Second, with all the PETA crap going around at the moment it doesn't take a fortune teller to foresee the storm of frenzied controversy that would come crashing down on our kennel should we go through with it.

So, why even think about doing it?

Without the pedigree it limits what we can do with the dog, but given that we still have the original Kaiser there would be no reason or desire for us to breed from a clone, so that's no issue. It would be nice to see how far we could go with a carbon copy of an already successful dog, but that dream goes out the window with the pedigree. 

So my idea to justify taking this opportunity is this - we take the clone (or clones, there could be more than one), raise them, train them and qualify them in IPO at a club level to measure them against the Kaisers abilities and when they are fully trained and qualified, we donate them to the police for free. That way there is a clear purpose for the dogs. We would have the ideal opportunity to test the science with a measurable benchmark, the fun of raising and living with the Kaiser all over again and at the end of we give back to the community by providing perfectly healthy and well trained working dog/s to the police.

That way we aren't in it for personal gain apart from satisfying our own blue sky curiosity and the dog/s will provide a service doing what we already know they will love. Anyone with ethical concerns will have a hard time arguing against that.

And if any of you are wondering about the procedure itself, it's very well understood and has a proven success rate nowadays. A lot have been done for pet dog owners in the United States, but this would be the first in the UK. I think it would be more interesting and ethical to do it with a working dog that provides a real function rather than a pet dog who's worth is subject solely to the owners opinion.

What do you guys think? I pose this question to you as real working dog people. I already know what the general publics knee jerk reaction will be, but your opinions will be greatly appreciated either way.

Ash.


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## Mike Di Rago (Jan 9, 2009)

I am very curious to see the outcome of the training of the clones.I had never heard of this aspect in the past.The only examples were of pet owners who were wanting their pets to return.
The example you are bringing up is more interesting as far as the developement and maintaining of strong working qualities through understanding the genetic implications.I had the impression that a clone would never be more than a ''twin''.But by using a series of clones and monitoring the progress and limits they would achieve,I think this must be a first in the working dog world.
If you do go ahead with the project,I for one would like to follow the progression of these dogs.
Mike


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## Ashley Foster (Jun 14, 2012)

Mike Di Rago said:


> I am very curious to see the outcome of the training of the clones.I had never heard of this aspect in the past.The only examples were of pet owners who were wanting their pets to return.
> The example you are bringing up is more interesting as far as the developement and maintaining of strong working qualities through understanding the genetic implications.I had the impression that a clone would never be more than a ''twin''.But by using a series of clones and monitoring the progress and limits they would achieve,I think this must be a first in the working dog world.
> If you do go ahead with the project,I for one would like to follow the progression of these dogs.
> Mike


The company has used the technology to clone sniffer dogs that are currently successfully deployed in airport security, and that's the sort of application where I think could be useful.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

What would be interesting for me would be a number of clones brought up and trained in different ways. That would help clarify what is genetic and what is 'trained/learned behaviour!


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## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

Matt Vandart said:


> What would be interesting for me would be a number of clones brought up and trained in different ways. That would help clarify what is genetic and what is 'trained/learned behaviour!


Also my greatest interest in cloning. Imagine not thinking, but verifiably *knowing* what training maximizes a given dog.


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## Stefan Schaub (Sep 12, 2010)

Ashley Foster said:


> We've been asked to take part in a project where our dog, Vongalanberg Kai, could be cloned as part of a TV documentary in the UK.
> 
> Here is the video explaining why Kai deserves to be a candidate (please watch it before reading the rest) http://youtu.be/fKaqgGAcs94
> 
> ...


Why do you think he should be cloned? i mean your opinion!do you not think that there are way better dogs with proven success in reproducing their quality?
Why clone a "young" dog with no proof of great progeny. for sure he was place 7 on the WUSV!!great success!!! but why do we need one more of him,he can still make a hundred studs and you can collect his sperm.

why not make this television people smart and tell them about his grandparents,Nick,Yoschy,Ugo. maybe Martina Moosdorf have still some hair of Yoschy,or Koos frozen of Nick or Ugo sperm, what i have read they could win enough DNA out that stuff to make a clone.that would be a story.

But that is only my opinion!!!!


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## Meg O'Donovan (Aug 20, 2012)

Is the video paid advertising for DogCloning UK? Does the TV audience get to vote on which dog they want cloned? Is this a reality TV show?


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## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

Stefan Schaub said:


> Why do you think he should be cloned? i mean your opinion!do you not think that there are way better dogs with proven success in reproducing their quality?
> Why clone a "young" dog with no proof of great progeny. for sure he was place 7 on the WUSV!!great success!!! but why do we need one more of him,he can still make a hundred studs and you can collect his sperm.
> 
> why not make this television people smart and tell them about his grandparents,Nick,Yoschy,Ugo. maybe Martina Moosdorf have still some hair of Yoschy,or Koos frozen of Nick or Ugo sperm, what i have read they could win enough DNA out that stuff to make a clone.that would be a story.
> ...


I think the longer ago a given dog existed, the greater his legacy and "greatness" becomes. Seeing some videos of champions that existed before I was born, I'm not that impressed when considering what the dog was built up to be. Not a bad dog for sure, but not able to live up to his legend either


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

If cloning really at the point where they can clone x dog for a TV show?
I would NOT do it. IMO it is a waste of money and a perversion of the science.


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## Ashley Foster (Jun 14, 2012)

Matt Vandart said:


> What would be interesting for me would be a number of clones brought up and trained in different ways. That would help clarify what is genetic and what is 'trained/learned behaviour!


This is a fascinating question for me also. If we had two clones I would train one and dad would train the other (and mine will be the bestest! :razz



Hunter Allred said:


> Also my greatest interest in cloning. Imagine not thinking, but verifiably *knowing* what training maximizes a given dog.


Also fascinating. Kai is a very difficult dog to train as he is very strong in the head. It wasn't a problem as a puppy but as soon as he was big and strong enough to dominate the handler it was pretty difficult to maintain a competitive performance. I think now that we know his true character, we can get the most out of it and do an even better job.



Stefan Schaub said:


> Why do you think he should be cloned? i mean your opinion!do you not think that there are way better dogs with proven success in reproducing their quality?
> Why clone a "young" dog with no proof of great progeny. for sure he was place 7 on the WUSV!!great success!!! but why do we need one more of him,he can still make a hundred studs and you can collect his sperm.
> 
> why not make this television people smart and tell them about his grandparents,Nick,Yoschy,Ugo. maybe Martina Moosdorf have still some hair of Yoschy,or Koos frozen of Nick or Ugo sperm, what i have read they could win enough DNA out that stuff to make a clone.that would be a story.
> ...


It's only open to British dogs, but I am also in agreement with Hunter Allred. Koos Hassing was very impressed with him as was Dirk Stocks who judged him for the World Championship qualifiers, both contemporaries with the dogs you mentioned. He has been worked by helpers who knew Nick, and they say his quality in protection is on that level if not better. Kaiser has produced very well within the UK but his problem is the fact that he was born in Britain and let's face it, we have a poor reputation at best, but if he had been born in Germany I know things would be very different. 



Meg O'Donovan said:


> Is the video paid advertising for DogCloning UK? Does the TV audience get to vote on which dog they want cloned? Is this a reality TV show?


It's not a vote nor are we getting paid. The scientists will decide which candidate they want.



Thomas Barriano said:


> If cloning really at the point where they can clone x dog for a TV show?
> I would NOT do it. IMO it is a waste of money and a perversion of the science.


I know a lot of people will hear the word "clone" and will instantly have visions of sci-fi horror, but in reality it's just like a genetically identical twin, which occurs naturally in all mammal species, conceived through a process similar to artificial insemination. The pup still has to be brought to term naturally by a female, there are certainly no side affects or welfare issues. It's all a matter of perception and that's another reason I'd like to do it, to show people what it's really about as opposed to the Hollywood idea of bodies suspended in test tubes etc.

Plus we're not spending any money, they're providing the clone/s for free and we will give them away to the police for free. It'll be a test of our training ability, the dogs natural genetic abilities and the efficacy of the cloning process. The dogs will also get a lot out of it. It'll be the best possible upbringing and life for them.


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## Stefan Schaub (Sep 12, 2010)

Hunter Allred said:


> I think the longer ago a given dog existed, the greater his legacy and "greatness" becomes. Seeing some videos of champions that existed before I was born, I'm not that impressed when considering what the dog was built up to be. Not a bad dog for sure, but not able to live up to his legend either


I do not know how old you are but Yoschy and Nick is not so long ago!!!but if you think that special these both dogs are not that great than i know what i must think about your knowledge.

@Ashley
I asked for your opinion why?and believe me if the dog was born in Germany it would not make a big difference.
In my eyes it is a nice dog, with a great training!!!can he give his training to his progenies?No!!
How can you say he have produced very well??to early to say!!lets wait a few years that his kids can proof that.
do not get me wrong the dog is nice but not worse cloning him, nothing special in my eyes.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

i think you should have provided some more background on this "competition" besides your promo clip
- whose idea was this ?
- can you guarantee you will retain the full rights to do what you want with the clones ?
- but more specifically, will entries such as the one i posted below be accepted or even considered ?

P.S. watch this clip if you ate something you shouldn't have and need to barf it up. then it will have some real value :

here it is :
"Wolfie, the accidental breeding" (my title)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ra6mwufkK0


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Ashley, I think your thinking is pretty clear on this and you should go forward. Of course their will always be detractors that will argue that that their are better dogs to be cloned. But that's an endless argument. 

Opportunities like this don't come along everyday. Get it while the getting is good.

I have had the idea of a clone futurity where a group of people get copies of the same good dog. Each person puts a large sum of money into a pot when the clones are puppies. Then the colones come back to compete against each other when they are 5 years old.

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

Stefan Schaub said:


> I do not know how old you are but Yoschy and Nick is not so long ago!!!but if you think that special these both dogs are not that great than i know what i must think about your knowledge.
> 
> @Ashley
> I asked for your opinion why?and believe me if the dog was born in Germany it would not make a big difference.
> ...


I wasn't referring those those two specifically. Just pointing out an observation how the famous dogs seem to grow exponentially with age. Reminds me of a Schutzhund video from the turn of the century where their performance for the moving picture camera as horrid and all I could think about was "they thought this was worth video'ing?


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Is this the program you are talking about?

http://metro.co.uk/2013/10/23/clone...s-chance-to-create-63000-pet-replica-4158428/

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/lifestyle/pets/10399876/Dog-cloning-to-arrive-in-Britain.html


Over $100K each AND nearly 100 non viable/aborted puppies for each clone? Frankenstein science and a waste of time and money.


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## Ashley Foster (Jun 14, 2012)

Stefan Schaub said:


> I do not know how old you are but Yoschy and Nick is not so long ago!!!but if you think that special these both dogs are not that great than i know what i must think about your knowledge.
> 
> @Ashley
> I asked for your opinion why?and believe me if the dog was born in Germany it would not make a big difference.
> ...


With respect, you do not know the dog. All people see is the finished product, and everyone assumes that because he does nice obedience he must be naturally obedient. The opposite is true. You can choose to believe me or not, and I don't care if you do, but you don't know him or the training he's been through.

But I'd rather not argue on that, let's just agree to disagree.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

if the outfit is the one Thomas linked and the Korean Company's claims are accurate .... i say HELL NO you shouldn't participate !

if they will clone ANY dog if the owner will pay the bucks, imo they are simply at the cutting edge of starting a new trend in dog/puppy farming :evil::evil:

it is a NO brainer they are trying to get more recognition and lower their cost....as i see it, it is a damn business with very poor ethics as the base
- they are doing it cause they can and most others CAN'T

don't be selfish, think past your nose, look at the implications and do the math, no matter how ethical YOUR intentions are !!

- costs lower, they sell or license their proprietary process and little by little it becomes more affordable to the masses

and i'm betting the "masses" will eventually include sport dogs and working dogs of all types ](*,)

imo way too high of a risk that gene pools will get watered down and even more health issues will raise their ugly heads once the work the bugs out of their cloning process and get it nice and "affordable"

and why would ethical breeders go thru the long expensive process of trying to improve their lines when they can just clone their champion or pick of their litters

i say a WHOLE LOT more thought and discussions should be generated to ensure this is not a case of letting the genie out of the bottle rather than take a knee jerk reaction and say "why not ? .... go for it" 

i am damn sure no PETA freak but i feel strongly there MUST be some ethics applied in this type of decision BEFORE it gets supported from ethical owners who should make up the majority of this list

why aren't we cloning people ????

granted, they're not four legged little humans, but sorry, i still think dogs should be considered on a higher level than livestock and plants we need to eat ](*,)](*,)

and i'm not the paranoid type, so if you think it's stupid to draw a line in the sand, state why u feel that way because maybe my logic is flawed here


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

This outfit?

http://io9.com/5892894/why-is-a-sci...earhead-the-mission-to-clone-a-woolly-mammoth

http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/h/hwang_woo_suk/


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## Stefan Schaub (Sep 12, 2010)

Ashley Foster said:


> With respect, you do not know the dog. All people see is the finished product, and everyone assumes that because he does nice obedience he must be naturally obedient. The opposite is true. You can choose to believe me or not, and I don't care if you do, but you don't know him or the training he's been through.
> 
> But I'd rather not argue on that, let's just agree to disagree.


I do not like how he goes into the helper, that have nothing to do with training.


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## Meg O'Donovan (Aug 20, 2012)

Christopher Smith said:


> Opportunities like this don't come along everyday. Get it while the getting is good.
> 
> I have had the idea of a clone futurity where a group of people get copies of the same good dog. Each person puts a large sum of money into a pot when the clones are puppies. Then the colones come back to compete against each other when they are 5 years old.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I bet a reality show would buy the futurity idea too.

As a person who had one 15 y.o. good dog die last year, and with my 14 y.o. GSD showing her age this year, I can empathize with the public that wants their good dogs to be immortal. However, I have read that the clones age more quickly than the animal from which the clone derives.

From Rick's link, it looks like any member of the UK public can propose a dog. It will be interesting to see what dog is chosen for "the show". Please update this link when the choice of dog is made.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

should ethics be applied in dog breeding or dog cloning ?
should you thoroughly research the breeder or cloner b4 selecting them ?


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

BTW, is this competition only open to living dogs or can someone dig up some bones from a former world champion and send in the DNA extracted ?


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