# Penn Hip compared to OFA?



## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Have many people done both Penn hip and OFA on the same dog? And if so did you get much variation in results?
I know of a person who got a AVA score here in Australia that was 2-1 score. This is similar to your OFA excellent. He was then Penn Hiped and he was rated in the bottom 30% of GSD's xrayed. Is this a familiar thing? I do know that different radio guys in different countries place higher importance on some things compared to other countries. Is this the case with Penn Hip compared to OFA?
I myself am only looking at using our AVA system, as the only advantage of Penn is the ability to score them at less than 12 months of age, and as I also do elbows they cannot be done under 12 months.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

It is becoming rapidly apparent to me that all of them have no idea what is correct, and thus looking at an x ray, is a dying skill. Penn hip is a cute idea, but what does it tell you really ?? I was having this same conversation and the dog was in the 30th percentile, and is fast as ****, jumps like a deer, and easily full height. So am I to take from this that I want dogs in the 30th percentile so that I can get good jumpers and speed demons ??

The only thing I can say about penn hip is that you get a laxity number, and if DJD is evident. There needs to be a booklet on what they are trying to accomplish, and at least 30 actual working dog people from all the different types of work need to be their to keep their scientific asses in line. I am sure that they could figure it out if they actually had a clue as to what we are in need of.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

And Penn *hip* as what it implies only does *hips* if you are going to do elbows you have to send the x-rays to 2 different radiologists.


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## andreas broqvist (Jun 2, 2009)

They do not mesure the exact same thing. PH is loking at the space in the socet. OFA and ouer type of x-ray is loking at how mutsh the socet cover the ball of the joint. So the best thing is to do both.

But yes we have had hips like that.
One of ouer pups got a Penhipp in the 90% area, but his OFA was Good on one side and fair on the other. Same nubers on both side Penhip.

Ther are aloot of thos.


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

andreas broqvist said:


> They do not mesure the exact same thing. PH is loking at the space in the socet. OFA and ouer type of x-ray is loking at how mutsh the socet cover the ball of the joint. So the best thing is to do both.
> 
> But yes we have had hips like that.
> One of ouer pups got a Penhipp in the 90% area, but his OFA was Good on one side and fair on the other. Same nubers on both side Penhip.
> ...


It makes it annoying if you are trying to breed for good hips. If you choose Penn Hip and bred your dogs for what penn hip like to see you could be breeding them to a worse OFA evaluation. 
I dont know which system is the correct as far as better evaluations, so I will just continue along with our AVA system and if someone xrays a dog from me that comes up average on penn hip I'll tell them Im only interested in what there AVA score is.


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## Maureen A Osborn (Feb 12, 2010)

thats a new one to me, what is the AVA that you use?


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Christopher, don't worry about Penn Hip and OFA, breed the dogs that can get the job done into their later years. You can have parents with great hips produce crap offspring. You can have parents that are crap produce great offspring. It is a con job. Either one of the system can rtell you the hips are great but the dog won't work past five years before it's broke down. Exrays can say the hips are crap and the dog will work till he is 11. Breed what can do the job and cull the rest.


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## Sanda Stankovic (Jan 10, 2009)

Just for a comparison. I sent the same X-ray to two different vets, both presumably experienced in scoring (AVA scores). One gave it a score that was 2x greater than the other vets score... 2x!!!! So as far as any info that you get, it is really not an exact science that's for sure. Also, dogs that are awake during X-ray will have better score than dog that was asleep ( I dont think this is allowed in Aus, I think all do it while dog is under). 

At least PennHIP is an exact science and it gives you a number. Now, whether that sub laxation that PennHIP measures is a true predictor, I dont know... You can find pro/against for both. 

Have a look at this link, its old but it might help with the comparison:

http://www.workingdogs.com/ofa_penn.htm


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## Lee Hanrahan (Jul 23, 2008)

PennHip measures Laxity which the OFA only view is not able to see accurately. OFA can also be done without sedation which is also giving a false reading. PennHip will show you what is to come - in other words, your dog can look fine now, but the increased laxity in the joint is going to cause more degenerative joint disease later. The less laxity, the better the joint. PennHip also looks at the same view as OFA and measures DJD at the time of the radiograph. 

Many dogs can OFA Fair, Good or Excellent, but do not do well in a PennHip x-ray because OFA cannot see the laxity. I know, I have one of these dogs. 

PennHip (from all the research I have done, text books I have read, vets and experts I have spoken with) is a far, far superior method to evaluate hips and eliminated HD in our dogs. OFA has not done anything to help.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

"I sent the same X-ray to two different vets, both presumably experienced in scoring (AVA scores). One gave it a score that was 2x greater than the other vets score... 2x!!!!"

Our K9 program is spread across the state. Because of that, handlers select a vet in their immediate area for all primary veterinarian care. Arrangements are made, where the vet just bills the state directly, I review and pay all bills. The one exception to that is when we are procurring a new dog. I do hips, elbows etc on any dog we procure, whether it's an adoption from a rescue, pound etc or I'm paying the 6 grand or better. I have one vet practice that does all my procurement xrays. They are experienced and most importantly, consistant. He doesn't do a Penn Hip. He does however sedate all dogs. His opinion is that laxity in the hip provides a better view. 

DFrost


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Right, OK, but you are just checking your dogs out. What you guys are has nothing at all to do with breeding. The other is that what does the information really tell you about the dogs hips ?? Based on .......

What people are looking for are answers to that question. I don't think that OFA or Penn hip are gonna give anyone what they need as far as answers to breeding questions. 

Like, who here can tell me if you x ray a dog, and one hip is bad, traditionally that dog is now out of the gene pool. 

Who can tell me if it is genetic or not ?? They are of some use, but not much. I have taken lots of dogs in knowing that they had something wrong, just not how bad it was. I was looking to make a decision for the dog.


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Maybe someone from Sweden can give some more info on this. A friend of mine who breeds GSD's in Sweden told me that some vets have now had to change the GA they use to knock the dogs our because they contained a muscle relaxant which gave a higher subluxation result.
Anyone know anything about this?


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## Katie Ribarich (Feb 6, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Christopher, don't worry about Penn Hip and OFA, breed the dogs that can get the job done into their later years. You can have parents with great hips produce crap offspring. You can have parents that are crap produce great offspring. It is a con job. Either one of the system can rtell you the hips are great but the dog won't work past five years before it's broke down. Exrays can say the hips are crap and the dog will work till he is 11. Breed what can do the job and cull the rest.


That maybe true, but what kind of active life do most working bred dogs lead these days which is physically challenging enough to prove they have good hips and overall structure ? Wild dogs are on the move all the time, sled dogs and the ancestors of the gsd, dutchie, malinois which were herding dogs, such jobs would qualify as physically demanding enough. That kind of work every day I imagine would weed out structurally unsound animals from the gene pool. These days when people say their dogs hips look fine in the back yard or at training or doing jumps, great but how long does a dog spend doing that ? few times a week ? and even everyday what is the dog doing most of the time ? in his kennel. So to get to old age with the claim he can still move around ok after that type of lifestyle is not really equal to eg a herding dog who has worked his whole life and is still alright. Jmho so X-Rays are still important.8)


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: So to get to old age with the claim he can still move around ok after that type of lifestyle is not really equal to eg a herding dog who has worked his whole life and is still alright. Jmho so X-Rays are still important.

In what way ?? A herding dog is not out there chasing them all day either. Now how many dogs are even doing work like this, and what is the difference between what their x-rays say, and other dogs x-rays say ?

According to what most people preach, if we breed excellent to excellent, we will get excellent, sorta. However, that isn't true. What about dogs that are perfect in one hip and not so good in the other ?? What about the fact that hd is polygenetic ??

Too many times over too many years, people have used OFA to try and clear up their breeding stock and it has not worked. So either every breeder is a lier, or the system of evaluation is not doing the job.

I am always open to suggestions, or new research, but I can x-ray breeding stock forever, and all that happens if I were to breed mildly displastic is nothing. I have the same chance of hd as if I bred excellent.

People want guarantees, because pups are not cheap, but the x-rays are liers, and so there are no guarantees.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Yes, but having the exrays tells some how responsible a breeder you are and in many cases, help market the pups for more dollars. See, there is a benefit top exraying. I guess it is all in the perception.


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## Sanda Stankovic (Jan 10, 2009)

> According to what most people preach, if we breed excellent to excellent, we will get excellent, sorta. However, that isn't true. What about dogs that are perfect in one hip and not so good in the other ?? What about the fact that hd is polygenetic ??


Yes, and more you breed great hips to great hips, more likely you are to get great hips. Do that over a long period of time and the probability of great hips will only increase. 


I think breeders that actually DO require of their dogs physical work are in a slightly unique situation. Lets face it, most people dont put their dogs through very strenuous exercise on regular basis to see if their hips will hold. Those that do dont necessarily need x-rays to tell that their dogs are good and a lot of those people will also have longevity and overall health in their dogs. Something you dont actually test for. 
We often forget that the reason we start testing for something IS because breeders have already messed it up to begin with. I think x-rays are good to show us horrible hips from decent ones and if used can help with hip health. Here in Aus, I think GSD hips have improved overall quite a bit by using x-rays as a selection tool. 
So I guess my point is: you have to test dog's health in some way just like you have to test their temperament, otherwise, its a shot in the dark. How you choose to test it (through putting them to work, looking at dog's longevity or using x-rays, PennHIP to do it) is imo totally up to the individual. But to have a newbie that only breeds what they have, doesnt have experience, doesnt test dog's ability to work and doesnt have x-rays to actually show what damage might be in there, doesnt really give you anything to work with.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: Yes, and more you breed great hips to great hips, more likely you are to get great hips. Do that over a long period of time and the probability of great hips will only increase. 

Bullshit.

I cannot tell you how many really really nice dogs were taken out of the gene pool because they didn't pass OFA. Forget the fact that they worked like the devil, and to a ripe old age where, yes, they looked like every other dog with DJD. 

I have to ask are you a breeder, or are you guessing ?


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## Sanda Stankovic (Jan 10, 2009)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Forget the fact that they worked like the devil, and to a ripe old age where, yes, they looked like every other dog with DJD.


Well, that is silly in itself. You have to put pros vs cons against each other and decide for yourself. Surely you wouldnt breed a crap temperament just cos the dog has good x-ray score so why do it the other way around, eliminate a great dog because of less than perfect hip scores. 



> or are you guessing ?


well, that is how polygenetic traits are selected for, right? I also never said that x-raying or PennHIP-ing dogs would be 100% accurate. As I wrote on the last page, my dog was given 2 totally different scores based on the same x-ray. What I am saying is that if you select good hips and breed with good hips, you should get good hips. Look at breeders that have been breeding WORKING field dogs before this HD testing. They got good dogs by breeding good to good, not by breeding crap to crap. But, as I said, once you stopped testing for their health and dogs were dropping from HD at the age of 12 months, you have to ask few questions... And they came up with x-rays because obviously when left to their own design, a lot of breeders have no idea what they are doing.


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## Katie Ribarich (Feb 6, 2009)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: So to get to old age with the claim he can still move around ok after that type of lifestyle is not really equal to eg a herding dog who has worked his whole life and is still alright. Jmho so X-Rays are still important.
> 
> In what way ?? A herding dog is not out there chasing them all day either. Now how many dogs are even doing work like this, and what is the difference between what their x-rays say, and other dogs x-rays say ?
> 
> ...


See what tending dogs and working stock dogs have to do. As for comparing X-Rays I don't have any material atm. Obviously a normally shaped hip is more likely to handle the stress of physical activity over time.

*Maybe wrong* HD used to be a bigger problem when it first discovered in the 60's (?) I have a gsd mag with HD results in australia during the 80's and it shows a steady improvement. Of course it would be more helpful for statistics if non breeding siblings of breeding dogs are contributing to score averages aswell. Selection pressure for good hips does help. The fact that it is polygenetic still means you should select for the best. Nature works that way. For one bad hip- could be injury or genetic- as for the potential for breeding imo depends on how bad and effect on the dog.

I've been told in gsds and with regards to hd you cannot get rid of it, only minimise the condition. Perhaps *speculating here* you reach a point where because of breeding on the same genetics, same ancestors over and over again which carried the problem genes and the polygenetic nature of the condition- improvement can't be gained anymore without the introduction of new genetic material. If you cared only for health you could select the best in the breed and breakaway from the constant doubling up of the same genetics and cross into an unrelated different breed and breed to the best of them. However that would risk losing working abilities, temperament and other qualities people want in breeds. Don't see it happening on a large scale any time soon.

Still X-rays are the best we have to work with, could be worser otherwise. JMO.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Ok you guys hit me with too much at once, but I am going to give it a try.

Quote: Quote:
or are you guessing ?
well, that is how polygenetic traits are selected for, right? I also never said that x-raying or PennHIP-ing dogs would be 100% accurate. As I wrote on the last page, my dog was given 2 totally different scores based on the same x-ray. What I am saying is that if you select good hips and breed with good hips, you should get good hips. Look at breeders that have been breeding WORKING field dogs before this HD testing. They got good dogs by breeding good to good, not by breeding crap to crap. But, as I said, once you stopped testing for their health and dogs were dropping from HD at the age of 12 months, you have to ask few questions... And they came up with x-rays because obviously when left to their own design, a lot of breeders have no idea what they are doing.

Bullshit again, you ARE guessing.

Quote: 
*Maybe wrong* HD used to be a bigger problem when it first discovered in the 60's (?) I have a gsd mag with HD results in australia during the 80's and it shows a steady improvement. Of course it would be more helpful for statistics if non breeding siblings of breeding dogs are contributing to score averages aswell. Selection pressure for good hips does help.

All it ever did was make people more aware, and they stopped sending in the poopy x-rays. We all know that. Rotts in the 80's according to OFA were 50 some odd % dysplastic. Now what is the real number, as you are not going to send in an X-ray that is shit. That is the only thing that I appreciate about pennhip, is they ALL are turned in.

HOWEVER, (please note the caps) Many many good dogs back in the day, and even today are not being bred for various reasons, one of which is hips. And lets face it, they have been doing this since the 70's and it is just bullshit. I think that you should take a look at the hips if there is a question in your mind, but other than that, it is a small part of what I am looking for in a dog, and the amount of dogs that I could produce with hd are virtually the same for the people that do extensive testing. 

Face it, you do the x-rays and it still means **** all. Think outside the box for a moment, and don't fall for the hype. So the parents are OFA Pennhip whatever. Doesn't mean that your pup is not going to have it. It is BULLSHIT. 

Thank you, Goodnight.


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Im sure someone somewhere is working on finding the DNA test for HD, so I'll wait for that before I jump onto Penn Hip me thinks.


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