# Pushing vs Pulling



## Maren Bell Jones

This may seem a bit elementary, but can anyone post a video of a dog specifically pushing the helper/decoy on the bitework instead of pulling?


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## Kadi Thingvall

Maren, go look at any of the videos of Mac on my website, he pushes on the grip. The training videos will show it better then the trial videos since the decoys in training aren't trying to escape the bite like the trial decoys are. For a Sch view of things look at the bitework videos of Luigi. He also pushes. http://www.dantero.com/videos.php?s=call_name For pulling look at most of the Sch videos of GSDs.


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## todd pavlus

It's hard to see this on videos, but definately easily felt by the decoy. Most KNPV dogs are bred for this. Mikes "Carlos", and Upstate K9's "Brico" are 2 good examples


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## Joby Becker

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4ilsJE-LWQ&feature=related

Watch this video. It is pretty easy to see, especially on the leg bites. Watch when the dog counters, he is pushing into the leg more. On the stand up bites it is fairly easy to see as well. Notice in all bites in this video how little effort the decoy has to put into maintaining his own posture, if this dog was a dog that pulled it would be much harder, as this a is a strong dog. I am not sure if the decoy is actually being pushed forward by the dog on the leg bites, or if he moves forward a little to attempt to escape the pressure (pain) of the bite itself. I took a couple leg bites from Endor when I was at Mike's and that mofo bites HARD. I am not sure if the dog was pushing ME forward either , or if I was moving forward to escape the pressure (pain), but what I remember is was that I WAS moving forward, as the dog pushed into the leg to get as much "meat" as he could. I have permanent scars from both leg bites I took from him that day. (he got through on both bites, I didn't even realize he got through until I showered later that day and saw the punctures. LOL)

I prefer this type of counter over a pulling, as a guy who takes bites often, nothing saddens me more, on a personal level, than a good dog that just hangs and pulls on the suit. I encourage the dogs to find me in the suit, and reward pushing deep counters with groans and screams :wink: Most people think it's all an act. I'm a decent actor, but the thinner suit I am stuck with currently adds an uncomfortable amount of realism#-o to the acting. It would be much less painful to not promote this type of counter, but I just don't care for suit dogs that are happy with getting a piece of the suit and pulling on it. I want the, to find the man in there.


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## Joby Becker

*addition*

not a schutzhund expert, but most if not all people I know train a pulling counter for sch, to set the grip, sink it in, for maximum points on the grips. I can agree to do this for the sport, but it is not what I like to see in dogs I work with for other purposes.
It is a lot more taxing physically to work with strong pullers due to the workout of fighting the dogs counters, but much more painful to work dogs that have the pushing counter, especially in a thinner suit. If its sleeve work, then there is no pain. LOL

genetics have a lot to do with the countering styles but can be influenced greatly through training.....


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## Joby Becker

*one more*

http://www.youtube.com/user/joby1#p/a/f/0/I1P5-eq_8Xo

great video of small pup being encouraged to "push" his grip.


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## Laura Bollschweiler

My dog has a tendency to push. It's kind of fun when a new-to-him helper gives him a grip in the blind because he will try to push them through the blind. The link is to a trial (hey, Bernie got his SchH 3!) so you won't see a bite in the blind, unfortunately.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vgdXnRtuo-U

Hard to see on video, but on the escape the judge commented that he didn't try to stop the helper...I asked later of the helper and he said yeah, because he's pushing me, not pulling. I think there's at least one bite where he moves the helper backwards.

Yes, this is SchH and now we have been working on making him pull, esp with the escape bite. 

He's naturally a pusher, not a puller, but his grip never changes, and I think that's the issue with some pushers in SchH. 

Of course, I could be wrong!

Laura
P.S. If you do watch the link, please ignore the back transport. Really.


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## Joby Becker

Nice dog.

When I think of a pushing grip, I think of the dog pushing his mouth forward to get as full of a bite, or to "dig in" to find the man that may have slipped out of the bite in the suit, I do not think of it too much as the dog actually trying to push the decoy, but to push the grip.


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## susan tuck

Laura's dog Bernie is a *REALLY *nice dog, they make a great team, and are inspiring to watch. Laura, this morning when Dean & I went tracking (in the rain & hail!!!) we discussed this very thing, & he told me exactly what you said, SOME dogs that push tend to get chewie.


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## Laura Bollschweiler

Joby Becker said:


> Nice dog.
> 
> When I think of a pushing grip, I think of the dog pushing his mouth forward to get as full of a bite, or to "dig in" to find the man that may have slipped out of the bite in the suit, I do not think of it too much as the dog actually trying to push the decoy, but to push the grip.


 
Thanks! Oh, okay. I would just call that countering into the man, or sleeve. Probably not the desired behavior for SchH since it could be called "pulsating" on the grip. Pushing to me means using forward movement once on the grip, with or without the grip changing (hopefully without!).

Laura


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## Mike Scheiber

*Re: addition*



Joby Becker said:


> not a schutzhund expert, but most if not all people I know train a pulling counter for sch, to set the grip, sink it in, for maximum points on the grips. I can agree to do this for the sport, but it is not what I like to see in dogs I work with for other purposes.
> It is a lot more taxing physically to work with strong pullers due to the workout of fighting the dogs counters, but much more painful to work dogs that have the pushing counter, especially in a thinner suit. If its sleeve work, then there is no pain. LOL
> 
> genetics have a lot to do with the countering styles but can be influenced greatly through training.....


My previous dog was a pusher helpers that had never worked him commented on his pulsing push, and yes it really isn't desirable for Schutzhund in his critiques a couple of judges made mention that his bite could be quieter his bite never loosened or moved but if you watched carefully you could see pulsing and pushing in when the helper would lock.
Your helper Steve B may remember him his name was Echo.


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## Maren Bell Jones

Thanks everyone. Makes a lot more sense seeing it and knowing what to look for as it's not as obvious from a distance.


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## Bob Scott

My older GSD could play games with a green helper or one that wasn't familiar with him. He pushed until he felt the helper resist the push then he pulled, OR he pulled untill he felt the helper resist then he pushed. 
Fun to watch him make some helpers look clumsy:-D:-D:-D.


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## Joby Becker

I understand why it is not desirable for SCH.

Some people when first seeing their dog do this, assume the grip is going in the crapper. It is a different picture from a pulling counter, but distinctly different from a dog that is "chewy" or one that is pushing in and backing out a lot due to nerve issues, or poor training.

On the suit, it is pretty easy to work, especially if the dog is a serious one. Much easier for the dog to feel like he is hurting the decoy in a suit, he can feel the man responding to his grip more. Slip out of the grip and they want to find you again. The suit is still an object I realize but at least the dog is actively trying to find the man in the suit, and good acting goes a long way. 
Some dogs are serious and still just pull on the suit, for these, stopping the fight and waiting for the dog to dig in, and responding to the counter usually works well. 
It is a lot harder to encourage this type of counter with a dog that is less than serious, is a nervebag or is just working straight in prey, unless it is a primary counter technique for the dog. These dogs are usually pretty content with a mouth full of suit, and some with half a mouth full if you're lucky  
There are a lot of guys working dogs that do everything they can to stay out of the bites when doing suit work, and do not encourage this type of counter. Sometimes I wish I was one of those guys, but the bruising and lumping are part of the work, and I don't like a dog I am working regularly to be happy just pulling on the suit. It is really disappointing to me.

I don't see it as much on a sleeve unless it is the dog's primary counter technique. Not as easy to promote in sleeve work, in my experience anyhow. I don't think there is as much incentive for the dog to counter in that fashion when doing sleeve work, they cannot really feel the decoy countering in the same way they can on a suit or hidden equipment. The sleeve becomes the object, the guy is the motor behind it. The decoy can pull on the sleeve and move the dog around and fight him, but once the dog gets a deep solid grip there isn't really much incentive to push the grip, dogs figure out pretty quickly they are not really hurting the man in a sleeve, so most will pull to fight for the sleeve. 
Any other decoy types have any input on this? 

Is there anyone out there that does not try to promote this type of counter in training for reasons other than losing points, or saving yourself the injuries or pain? 

I'm asking more about if you have reasons for NOT training and promoting this type of counter in the suit...

As I'm fairly sure most guys try to get the hell out of the way of a strong dog that already has this type of counter that is trying to chew them up in a suit, especially if you have one that lets you "feel" more of the bite than you should I know I sure the hell do, but that's what makes it FUN...yeah right....

I think anyone training dog to seriously bite should encourage this type of counter if possible, but sadly many don't.


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## Ted Efthymiadis

Maren Bell Jones said:


> This may seem a bit elementary, but can anyone post a video of a dog specifically pushing the helper/decoy on the bitework instead of pulling?



Mike Ellis describes it well in a video posted on the leerburg site.

It tends to be more something you see in the dutch working lines. From what I have seen anyways.


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## James Downey

Joby Becker said:


> I understand why it is not desirable for SCH.
> 
> Some people when first seeing their dog do this, assume the grip is going in the crapper. It is a different picture from a pulling counter, but distinctly different from a dog that is "chewy" or one that is pushing in and backing out a lot due to nerve issues, or poor training.
> 
> On the suit, it is pretty easy to work, especially if the dog is a serious one. Much easier for the dog to feel like he is hurting the decoy in a suit, he can feel the man responding to his grip more. Slip out of the grip and they want to find you again. The suit is still an object I realize but at least the dog is actively trying to find the man in the suit, and good acting goes a long way.
> Some dogs are serious and still just pull on the suit, for these, stopping the fight and waiting for the dog to dig in, and responding to the counter usually works well.
> It is a lot harder to encourage this type of counter with a dog that is less than serious, is a nervebag or is just working straight in prey, unless it is a primary counter technique for the dog. These dogs are usually pretty content with a mouth full of suit, and some with half a mouth full if you're lucky
> There are a lot of guys working dogs that do everything they can to stay out of the bites when doing suit work, and do not encourage this type of counter. Sometimes I wish I was one of those guys, but the bruising and lumping are part of the work, and I don't like a dog I am working regularly to be happy just pulling on the suit. It is really disappointing to me.
> 
> I don't see it as much on a sleeve unless it is the dog's primary counter technique. Not as easy to promote in sleeve work, in my experience anyhow. I don't think there is as much incentive for the dog to counter in that fashion when doing sleeve work, they cannot really feel the decoy countering in the same way they can on a suit or hidden equipment. The sleeve becomes the object, the guy is the motor behind it. The decoy can pull on the sleeve and move the dog around and fight him, but once the dog gets a deep solid grip there isn't really much incentive to push the grip, dogs figure out pretty quickly they are not really hurting the man in a sleeve, so most will pull to fight for the sleeve.
> Any other decoy types have any input on this?
> 
> Is there anyone out there that does not try to promote this type of counter in training for reasons other than losing points, or saving yourself the injuries or pain?
> 
> I'm asking more about if you have reasons for NOT training and promoting this type of counter in the suit...
> 
> As I'm fairly sure most guys try to get the hell out of the way of a strong dog that already has this type of counter that is trying to chew them up in a suit, especially if you have one that lets you "feel" more of the bite than you should I know I sure the hell do, but that's what makes it FUN...yeah right....
> 
> I think anyone training dog to seriously bite should encourage this type of counter if possible, but sadly many don't.


 
I think this trend is changing, Especially in the Malinois Crowd of SchH. We want dogs that dig the grip in, and keep pushing forward. I have a natural puller, and wished she was a pusher. I do not think that if a dog pushes it will make them chewy, you can still teach them to set. Also, I think pushin gives a better picture...pulling makes it look like the dog wants to get out of there.


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## Timothy Stacy

When a dog pushes in, isn't he constantly releasing the pressure on his grip?
I personally put more emphasis on the hardnest of the grip and when the opportunity presents itself for a fuller bite the dog should take it. But once it's full it should stay that way and I personsally like to see thrashing at that point. Some people don't like thrashing but I personally do. Just my opinion but I see some dogs that bite full and continue pushing in for more while realeasing there grip for more and more Sometimes can be over emphasized by a helper/decoy in training.


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## Matt Grosch

Ive been decoying for a PD that only uses KNPV dogs. Only one was raised as a pup here, from imported parents, and he is the only one that pulls. All of the imports push. I had noticed that and found it interesting. And, he is the only pain since he is a nasty 85 pounds and makes my lower back ache a bit


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## Joby Becker

Timothy Stacy said:


> When a dog pushes in, isn't he constantly releasing the pressure on his grip?
> I personally put more emphasis on the hardnest of the grip and when the opportunity presents itself for a fuller bite the dog should take it. But once it's full it should stay that way and I personsally like to see thrashing at that point. Some people don't like thrashing but I personally do. Just my opinion but I see some dogs that bite full and continue pushing in for more while realeasing there grip for more and more Sometimes can be over emphasized by a helper/decoy in training.



Yes I agree. 

I was more thinking about the suit work and kinda overlapped into some things that were not very well explained. 

Me personally I like the thrashing as well. 

But still not real happy when a dog is satisfied just hanging on the suit, even if it's a thrashing full grip of material I'd prefer the dog to dig in and try to hurt the man.

The goal is still the hard full grip, 
dogs that push will sometimes do what you describe if the fight stops.


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## Gerry Grimwood

Matt Grosch said:


> Ive been decoying for a PD that only uses KNPV dogs. Only one was raised as a pup here, from imported parents, and he is the only one that pulls. All of the imports push. I had noticed that and found it interesting. And, he is the only pain since he is a nasty 85 pounds and makes my lower back ache a bit


Wouldn't any dog that came from the KNPV program in Holland be considered an ex KNPV dog ? If someone bought a FR dog and didn't participate in a sanctioned Ring club..would it still be a Ring dog ?


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## Chris Michalek

Gerry Grimwood said:


> Wouldn't any dog that came from the KNPV program in Holland be considered an ex KNPV dog ? If someone bought a FR dog and didn't participate in a sanctioned Ring club..would it still be a Ring dog ?


Yes. It would still be a Ring dog.


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## Gerry Grimwood

Chris Michalek said:


> Yes. It would still be a Ring dog.


Bullshit.


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## Chris Michalek

Gerry Grimwood said:


> Bullshit.



I'm not with a band at the moment. I am not playing music right now nor have I for the past four days. Am I still a musician?

I recently started with a French Ring group but the dog is not titled and only working on leg bites. The dog does have a schH title. Do I have a French Ring Dog or Do I have a schutzhund dog?

I moved from Minnesota to Arizona. I follow the MN sports teams and local MN news. I do not follow AZ sport or much local news. Am I a Minnesotan or an Arizonan?


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## Mike Scheiber

Chris Michalek said:


> I'm not with a band at the moment. I am not playing music right now nor have I for the past four days. Am I still a musician?
> 
> I recently started with a French Ring group but the dog is not titled and only working on leg bites. The dog does have a schH title. Do I have a French Ring Dog or Do I have a schutzhund dog?
> 
> I moved from Minnesota to Arizona. I follow the MN sports teams and local MN news. I do not follow AZ sport or much local news. Am I a Minnesotan or an Arizonan?


Waaaat SKOL VIKINGS!!!!


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## Gerry Grimwood

A dog involved in a sport or whatever you choose to call it, in a different country/continent and that particular sport is confined to said country... 

The musician comparison isn't very specific, either are the others. The reason I asked this question is I'm starting to wonder if this trend will be similar to all the people claiming to own DDR dogs, instead of saying they're distant relatives.


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## Chris Michalek

Gerry Grimwood said:


> A dog involved in a sport or whatever you choose to call it, in a different country/continent and that particular sport is confined to said country...
> 
> The musician comparison isn't very specific, either are the others. The reason I asked this question is I'm starting to wonder if this trend will be similar to all the people claiming to own DDR dogs, instead of saying they're distant relatives.



you mean like how everybody advertises about German Rottweilers when they were born in america


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## Matt Grosch

Gerry Grimwood said:


> Wouldn't any dog that came from the KNPV program in Holland be considered an ex KNPV dog ? If someone bought a FR dog and didn't participate in a sanctioned Ring club..would it still be a Ring dog ?




If they buy titled KNPV dogs that have that bloodline, upbringing, training, and title.....then are bought and tweaked a bit by the PD for the street......Id think 'KNPV' dog would be the correct description


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## Matt Grosch

Ted Efthymiadis said:


> Mike Ellis describes it well in a video posted on the leerburg site.
> 
> It tends to be more something you see in the dutch working lines. From what I have seen anyways.



any help finding it?


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## Loring Cox

Part 1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dsgZUltKQS8 there is a part 2 as well.


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## Matt Grosch

his description of mondio was probably the best

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7mosLTuSlFc&feature=related


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## James Downey

Joby Becker said:


> Nice dog.
> 
> When I think of a pushing grip, I think of the dog pushing his mouth forward to get as full of a bite, or to "dig in" to find the man that may have slipped out of the bite in the suit, I do not think of it too much as the dog actually trying to push the decoy, but to push the grip.


 
Then what's a puller? a dog that pulls backward to get as full of a bite?

I also think it maybe true when the fight stops the dog will dig with his mouth if he's a dog that moves forward more. And in SchH it's not so much of a problem...when the fight stops, the handler yells what?....OUT!!!! The bites are so short in SchH in trial, I do not think the dog get's much time to keep biting in.

I think all that puller being better than pusher in SchH is all old school stuff now. And if a strong dog is constantly re-gripping that's not a problem in which direction the dog likes to go, that's a training issue. I have seen pullers do this. 

I like pushers, they just look like more confident dogs to me. Pullers to me, look like they want to get away from the pressure. I know this is not true, but it just looks like that. But thier is no doubt in my mind a dog that keeps pushing forward has balls.


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## Drew Peirce

Just to insure it's a fair and balanced argument, I submit this one on behalf of the pullers>>>


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IT78Hd3VXj4


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jjCoQ9VCLRc&feature=related


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## Matt Grosch

Assuming its a tough nasty dog, I wonder if it was for real, how many would rather have him pushing or pulling


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## James Downey

Drew Peirce said:


> Just to insure it's a fair and balanced argument, I submit this one on behalf of the pullers>>>
> 
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IT78Hd3VXj4
> 
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jjCoQ9VCLRc&feature=related


 
I am not sure what's so impressive about this dog. I know the grip depth is not important KNPV. But 1/4 to 1/2 a mouth full? I know most three quarter gripping dogs are the harderst biting dogs. I think these dogs have a "suspicious" nerve set that creates both a lot of times. Nothing wrong with that in a Malinois, Just not good for my sport.

But with this dog, I am not sure I am convinced he is " real" the barking did not make think so....especially when he barks at the handler then moves around the decoy to keep his eye on the wrong guy. 

So Drew, I am assuming you were being a little sarcastic?


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## Selena van Leeuwen

Drew Peirce said:


> Just to insure it's a fair and balanced argument, I submit this one on behalf of the pullers>>>
> 
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IT78Hd3VXj4
> 
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jjCoQ9VCLRc&feature=related


 
We call them "back-breakers", if translated exact. Mostly the result of "slappy" training. (i hope I spelled it right...)

NOT the way we like the bite to be. Use a dog like that in policepractice and you will have mostly clothing-damage.

Seeing the dog, I'm sure he could be teached to push in the bite.

If a dog should want to pull like that in training at our club, he will be corrected/punished for that.

Dick


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## Martine Loots

Quality of the grip is genetic. Impossible to teach a dog that doesn't have it genetically to push in the grip.
Bad decoy work can ruin a good grip and good decoy work can improve the grip. But no way any decoy can teach a dog that doesn't have the quality to push, to get good grips.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PPe0QG1RBpI

Example of excellent "pushing". In the slow motion you can see very well how the dog uses his whole body to push. 

And NO, a dog that pushes in the grip doesn't loosen the grip each time he pushes deeper ;-)


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## Rigel Lancero

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> We call them "back-breakers", if translated exact. Mostly the result of "slappy" training. (i hope I spelled it right...)
> 
> NOT the way we like the bite to be. Use a dog like that in policepractice and you will have mostly clothing-damage.
> 
> Seeing the dog,* I'm sure he could be teached to push in the bite.*
> 
> If a dog should want to pull like that in training at our club, he will be corrected/punished for that.
> 
> Dick


Does the pushing bite can be really influenced by training? Or there are just some dogs that are pushers and pullers?


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## Martine Loots

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I3fbhwi6JIw

Another example of real pushing and digging deeper in the grip.
You can see it very well when the dog is biting while hanging in the net and the attack afterwards


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## Martine Loots

Rigel Lancero said:


> Does the pushing bite can be really influenced by training? Or there are just some dogs that are pushers and pullers?


 
No, it's genetic. Good training can improve the grip of course, but no way a dog that doesn't have it genetically will ever bite really good.


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## Martine Loots

http://video.google.com/videoplay?d...i=JsxeS8TpDZCM2AKi37HpBA&q=martine+loots+fils#

http://video.google.com/videoplay?d...i=7cxeS7mEGZ3k2gKiqNGRDw&q=martine+loots+fils#

some more examples


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## James Downey

Maren Bell Jones said:


> This may seem a bit elementary, but can anyone post a video of a dog specifically pushing the helper/decoy on the bitework instead of pulling?


 
I do not think Maren Bell was refering to grips, but what the dog once it's clamped down. Thier are dogs with perfect grips....whom pull away from the decoy once set. 

think about it....Any dog, to have a good grip...in order to fill it's mouth has to push at some point. but some dogs, just keep pushing, and some start to pull back...And rotti's do neither and just dropped thier ass and hang on.


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## Rigel Lancero

Martine Loots said:


> No, it's genetic. Good training can improve the grip of course, but no way a dog that doesn't have it genetically will ever bite really good.


I agree with you that the grip quality is genetics,training can only polish what is inside the dog.

But I mean,if a handler wants a dog to push or pull in the bites,can it be trained?


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## Martine Loots

James Downey said:


> I do not think Maren Bell was refering to grips, but what the dog once it's clamped down. *Thier are dogs with perfect grips....whom pull away from the decoy once set*.
> 
> think about it....Any dog, to have a good grip...in order to fill it's mouth has to push at some point. but some dogs, just keep pushing, and some start to pull back...And rotti's do neither and just dropped thier ass and hang on.


 
Sorry, but to me this is far from a perfect grip. "Good grip" doesn't refer to the mouth being full or not, it refers to the whole attitude of the dog, which includes pushing and insisting.


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## Martine Loots

Rigel Lancero said:


> I agree with you that the grip quality is genetics,training can only polish what is inside the dog.
> 
> But I mean,if a handler wants a dog to push or pull in the bites,can it be trained?


Good grip quality includes the pushing and it's genetic.

Like you said, good decoy work can polish, but not change the genetics.
On the other hand, bad decoy work can ruin a grip which initially was there genetically.


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## Max Orsi

Very interesting discussion, thanks for bringing it up.

In my experience, I have seen dogs being conditioned to have both puliing and pushing behaviours.

The pushing behaviour, when learned and not genetic, does not hold up under pressure.

In general each trainer in the various sports, has his preference, and the various sport have their standards on how a grip should look.

When you look at the "raw" dog the grip tells you if the dog is actively aggressing you (bringing the fight to a fight) when he pushes forward and when he is border line to bail out of it (fight) when he constantly pulls, because not confortable in it.

I have seen the pulling behaviour mostly learned by the dogs training for SchH/IPO, either by possession games or by making the dog unconfortable to stay close to the decoy, using stick and whip mostly on the dog feet.

My personal preference, independently to the sport I play, is for a dog that brings the fight to the fight.

Even if I believe sports are the only standard tests to display dogs qualities and training abilities, the dog should be first a working dog (military/police/protection) and a sport dog distant second.

Breeders should remember this, or pretty soon will be left with a bunch of "golden retrivers" that can tug on a sleeve.

I see already a great deal of difference in the temperament of most malinois I work today compared to the ones I used to work 10 years ago.

Happy training

Max


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## Jim Nash

Rigel asked : 

" I agree with you that the grip quality is genetics,training can only polish what is inside the dog.

But I mean,if a handler wants a dog to push or pull in the bites,can it be trained? "


I know this question was directed to Martine but I may be able to answer part of it . 

I'm a Police Officer and was a trainer in our 18 K9 Unit . We also train PSD's for the majority of Police Departments in Minnesota (about 180 Patrol K9's in the state) and also for others in the 5 state area . MN , IA , SD , ND and WI . We train anywhere from 12 to 30+ Patrol K9's a year depending on demand . Most are young green dogs and a few come with KNPV and Schtz. titles . 

We teach to pull . For me on most real apprehensions (I've had close to 100 apprehensions involving bites with my 2 K9's) I prefer a K9 that pulls . Because the majority of apprehensions are on hidden suspects and I've found it advantagious that my K9's are able to pull the suspect out of cover so we can better see the suspect and if he or she is armed . JMO . 

I can't remember a K9 that didn't leave the 12 weeks of initial training that didn't pull and we've had some very tough dogs . So from my aspect the pulling can definately be trained .


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## Martine Loots

Jim Nash said:


> Rigel asked :
> 
> So from my aspect the pulling can definately be trained .


Totally agree, but this is what we call "bad decoy work" then (for a sport where there are a lot of points on the quality of the grip) ;-)

But I do agree with you where you say that you like a K9 to pull and that you teach him to do so. Your target is immobilizing a suspect and has nothing to do with sport.


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## Selena van Leeuwen

If a dog pulls or pushes from nature sure is a genetic thing. 
But when a dog pulls, its the question if it is the result of a genetic problem or a training problem.
Trainingsproblems can often be solved. If the pulling-problem is not genetic it sure is trainable. That is a combi of corections by the handler and rewarding by the decoy and handler. 
Thats what I meant. The vid showed a trainingproblem.

Here in Holland we do not want a dog to pull in policework. (ofcourse there are examples of working policedogs that do. Mostly a result of what dog some regions buy and the quality of the TD)

Force used by a policedog is here placed just under a firearm, so when a dog is used the situation is escalated or with high risk. The dog should make the difference and will not make it by just coursing clothingdamage.
A pusher will always want to have contact with "the body" .

Dick


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## David Frost

Dick,

I understand what you are saying, even agree. When a dog encounters someone, say hiding in a bush, the dog will pull the person out from the bush. In that instance it's a pull. We want the dog to do that. If the dog is pulling on the subject and only has the clothing, then yes, that is a training problem. The dog shoulld fully engage before trying to remove the person from whereever they are hiding. You use of force rules are a bit more stringent than ours. 

DFrost


----------



## Selena van Leeuwen

David Frost said:


> Dick,
> 
> I understand what you are saying, even agree. When a dog encounters someone, say hiding in a bush, the dog will pull the person out from the bush. In that instance it's a pull. We want the dog to do that. If the dog is pulling on the subject and only has the clothing, then yes, that is a training problem. The dog shoulld fully engage before trying to remove the person from whereever they are hiding. You use of force rules are a bit more stringent than ours.
> 
> DFrost


 we use different technique.. 
When the dog is pulling someone out off his hidingplace, he's vonurable (if spelled right). We like, if its needed, to pull the suspect.:idea: ;-)

for us "control" is when the supect is cuffed. until that the dog is "holding" the suspect. Another reason we prefer the dogs to bite the legg.

Dick


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## Jim Nash

Dick stated:

" Force used by a policedog is here placed just under a firearm, so when a dog is used the situation is escalated or with high risk. The dog should make the difference and will not make it by just coursing clothingdamage.
A pusher will always want to have contact with "the body" . "



I'll just speak for my dogs though most of the others are similiar . I can tell you both of mine especially the first are definately making contact with the body . 

Dick , we also don't consider the suspect under control if the dogs on him . Not sure where you're getting that but the same rule applies here . Til the cuffs go on and the badguy is searched and cleared for weapons the suspect is a big threat . Even with cuffs on they should be considered a threat .


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## David Frost

I agree. I just chalk it up to language differences. 

DFrost


----------



## Rigel Lancero

I have seen videos of PP dogs and Police dogs who are being rewarded by the sleeve or suit during bitework.

Guys,do you think rewarding the sleeve or suit during bitework has a factor on dogs who are pulling in the bite?


----------



## Jim Nash

We've gotten away from slipping the sleeve with most dogs we train . I can't remember a time we ever slipped a suit jacket . 

I would think though that it is a factor on some dogs that pull . Along with back presure from the lead to set the bite on early stages of bitework training .


----------



## Rigel Lancero

So Jim if you don't slip or reward the sleeve,do you just out or take the dog off the bite?


----------



## James Downey

I went out and just did a little experiment...with my dog. I never noticed this too much till this conversation came up. I worked my bitch on suit maybe 6 times ( thin suit and hurts like a bitch so I put the shit in the garage to collect dust) in her life when she was about 2. She is now 4. She has always pulled the sleeve. But this thread made me realize she pushed on the suit when I worked when she was younger. and she will push and pull on a tug...depending on what I do. So I just went out and did both sleeve and jacket.. first sleeve-pull, then suit jacket- pushing, back to sleeve- pull. The only thing I can make of that is the fact the dog has "won" the sleeve and knows this. also when the sleeve is slipped she rams right back into you, the minute you touch it with your hands- she pulls. She is possesive at her core. So maybe she thinks that if she pulls hard enough during the fight she will get her toy.

She knows I am full of shit and will never hurt her when working her. So I cannot effectively put pressure on her...she does not see it as pressure. So, I will be interested to see with decoy she does not know what she will do when pressure is placed on her,see if there is any difference. Also when normally training he on a sleever, she will pull when the decoy is still and push when driven. she did not pull when I froze up with a suit and kept pushing? Maybe she wants to be a ring dog?

any thoughts on that?


----------



## James Downey

Jim Nash said:


> We've gotten away from slipping the sleeve with most dogs we train . I can't remember a time we ever slipped a suit jacket .
> 
> I would think though that it is a factor on some dogs that pull . Along with back presure from the lead to set the bite on early stages of bitework training .


 
Jim I am also interested to why you stopped slipping the sleeve. The only reason I slip the sleeve now, Is because I used to never have the decoy slip because I thought my Out was bomb proof...Till I had out problems. I then revised my training program because she was doing good work only to not Out and then we would correct the Out totally making all the good bite work she had just done end with a correction. So, I started having the Decoy slip the sleeve and I would just hold her up by the collar till she spit. After a summer of training like this, she will spit the sleeve the minute her front feet come off the ground. I like this because she knows 2 things, getting hung sucks and she is going to have to spit sooner or later....and that the quciker she spits, the quicker she gets back to work.


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## Bob Scott

Unless trained for, or unknowlingly rewarded for one or the other could it possibley be just an opposition response/reflex? Push when pressed, pull when still (can you ever be really still)? 
Just a thought!
My dog was always rewarded for pulling (schutzhund) and had to learn NOT to push. 
His natural inclination was to do both in order to use the decoys balance to his advantage. There were decoys that didn't like him for this reason. ](*,)


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## James Downey

I hear ya Bob and that would make sense if she did the same behaviors on both. The only difference is the equipment. So, maybe it's the training paired with equipment?


----------



## Bob Scott

That's possibly where the "unknowlingly rewarded" comes in. Your using different ballance and foot work from the sleeve to the suit. The dog could very well have "learned" from the differences you present to it.
Only thoughts on dog behaviour on my part because of my very limited sleeve work.


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## Amanda Caldron

Very interesting post.... I am trying to cross in sports to really get a feel for each of the sports out there. My dog is a pusher and even in the biggest of suits still manages to get you.... my thing is now with a sleeve, when he realizes he can't get any fuller he will do one additional counter followed by an immediate shake as if it will get him in deeper or something. Obviously this won't work out well in a sch. trial. What are suggestions on keeping him to push on the suit and teaching to pull on sleeve without compromising the work? My dog just turned 3 and started at about a year old in training. I have come up with some ideas and have my own thoughts on where his training stands but want to get your ideas. will it be unclear to him what exactly is wanted and when? stick to suit sports only? (at least with this dog), etc. thanks


----------



## James Downey

Martine Loots said:


> Sorry, but to me this is far from a perfect grip. "Good grip" doesn't refer to the mouth being full or not, it refers to the whole attitude of the dog, which includes pushing and insisting.


Martine I have to politley disagree on a few things here. First one is "grip" I have never heard to describe the dogs whole additude. But used to simply describe the mechanics of the dogs bite. 

I also have seen dogs that pull, whom are absolute monsters and can handle pressure just fine....in fact some love the work and beg for more.

I also notice some dogs that only have 3/4 grips and push like the dickens are only doing so, because they want the pressure to shut off, and they believe that if they fight hard enough it will shut off. These dogs often also are some of the hardest biting dogs I have seen. In fact dogs most dogs with "real" aggression I have seen fall into this category. 

Who's to say which dog is good or not? And when I said perfect grip I was refering to full, hard grips. but using your definition you can have a puller with a perfect grip (whole additude is strong) I have seen plenty of dogs like this.

Now I have seen shitty pullers, and very confident pushers also. I do not think that pushing or pulling is a clear cut sign that the dog is good or bad. I do think that some dogs that pull do because they are worried, but also again, I think these dogs will have shallow grips...I think the depth of the grip is more a tell tale sign on the dogs nerve base.


----------



## James Downey

Amanda Caldron said:


> Very interesting post.... I am trying to cross in sports to really get a feel for each of the sports out there. My dog is a pusher and even in the biggest of suits still manages to get you.... my thing is now with a sleeve, when he realizes he can't get any fuller he will do one additional counter followed by an immediate shake as if it will get him in deeper or something. Obviously this won't work out well in a sch. trial. What are suggestions on keeping him to push on the suit and teaching to pull on sleeve without compromising the work? My dog just turned 3 and started at about a year old in training. I have come up with some ideas and have my own thoughts on where his training stands but want to get your ideas. will it be unclear to him what exactly is wanted and when? stick to suit sports only? (at least with this dog), etc. thanks


 
Amanda before you start trying to get him to pull on a sleeve. Most Sch bites are very short and the decoy is always in motion and moving fast (making shaking tough for the dog) except for the lock up before the out. So, I would see how much shaking he does going through the whole routine. a little bit is okay. In training you may see a lot more shaking because the decoy is not moving as much...I.E. giving rewards for barking. Of course this dependent on how much the dog shakes....and to tell you the truth more and more judges are not taking points away for shaking as long as the dog does not loosen it's grip and out's fast. Posting a Vid may help. If the shaking is out of this world crazy. you may just have to live with it. But If it's just a last ditch effort to get deeper, the decoy could most likely be doing a lot to help the dog in training.


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## Max Orsi

James Said:
"I also notice some dogs that only have 3/4 grips and push like the dickens are only doing so"

By definition any dog with a 3/4 mouth grip is not pushing in to the bite.

Happy training

Max


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## jack van strien

Imo a pushing dog is trying to hurt the decoy and a good dog really enjoys it when he knows he is inflicting pain.I don't think in KNPV it is apreciated when a decoy tries to roll out of the bite. There is a trend to use more and more naturally pushing stud dogs.
In Schh a dog can never hurt the decoy and maybe in the dogs mind he is trying to pull the decoy down to stop him from escaping.
If i watch wolves catching a prey there is only pulling as long as the prey is trying to escape,when the prey is brought down it is killed.Instinct is pulling?
Would like your opinion on this Dick.


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## James Downey

Max Orsi said:


> James Said:
> "I also notice some dogs that only have 3/4 grips and push like the dickens are only doing so"
> 
> By definition any dog with a 3/4 mouth grip is not pushing in to the bite.
> 
> Happy training
> 
> Max


Your correct.

but the orignial question was Pusher Vs. Puller. No dog with a full bite, got thier by pulling away from the bite. They all have to Push into the bite at some point if they wish to fill thier mouth. but I do not think the question was abou pushing into the bite. I believe the original question was about dogs that after they bite, which way do they go? Do they push into the decoy, or pull away from the decoy. Which could inculde dogs that push into the bite.

So I was not refering to the dog pushing into the bite. I was refering to a dog that simply pushes into the decoy after they bite.


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## James Downey

jack van strien said:


> Imo a pushing dog is trying to hurt the decoy and a good dog really enjoys it when he knows he is inflicting pain.I don't think in KNPV it is apreciated when a decoy tries to roll out of the bite. There is a trend to use more and more naturally pushing stud dogs.
> In Schh a dog can never hurt the decoy and maybe in the dogs mind he is trying to pull the decoy down to stop him from escaping.
> If i watch wolves catching a prey there is only pulling as long as the prey is trying to escape,when the prey is brought down it is killed.Instinct is pulling?
> Would like your opinion on this Dick.


 
Jack, I think protection dogs are far removed from many instincts wolves possesed. Selective breeding has introduced a whole new set of skills. in fact I think the wolf is everything we have been breeding away from. Skiddish, nervous animals.


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## Max Orsi

Jack ssaid:

"In Schh a dog can never hurt the decoy and maybe in the dogs mind he is trying to pull the decoy down to stop him from escaping."

In Schh/IPO the dog learn to be possessive over the sleeve, at the beginning you make it very clear (for the dog) the the fight is over the sleeve and not with the decoy.

That 's why alot of beginning work is done with the sleeve, rag or whatever on a line away from the decoy, and the dog is asked to maintein focus on it and not the decoy.

When the dog gets possession of the sleeve is outed and the decoy again challenges the dog over the possession of the sleeve and not to a fight.

When the dogs matures in the bitework it learns to be uncofortable close to the decoy, using whip and stick mostly on the dogs feet, but also on the body, causing the dog to want to pull "his" object (the sleeve) away, when that happen the dog is rewarded by possession.

The more a behaviour is rewarded, the more it has the tendency to repeat itself.

*I am not very familiar with the KNPV bite development in young dogs and very interested on how Dick starts and develops the dogs he trains.*

Happy training

Max


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## will fernandez

Rigel Lancero said:


> So Jim if you don't slip or reward the sleeve,do you just out or take the dog off the bite?


I apologize for inserting my 2 cents. I am not sure if Jim does it this way but this is the way we do it.

Depending on what and which dog is being trained. Some dogs are just outed (plenty of drive do not need to reward or overload) other dogs will out and decoy will be chased off field or allowed to runaway.(lower drive or newer dogs). Then of course there is always the decoy being arrested and taken away.

If we slip during training-a newer dog or a dog without any physical apprehensions may be satisfied with just clothes or a jacket as opposed to the person.IMO


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## R Janssen

For me always a forward pushing grip, i want a dog to be so greedy that he 
digs in so deep that he is mainly working with his back teeth. :mrgreen:


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## will fernandez

Amanda Caldron said:


> Very interesting post.... I am trying to cross in sports to really get a feel for each of the sports out there. My dog is a pusher and even in the biggest of suits still manages to get you.... my thing is now with a sleeve, when he realizes he can't get any fuller he will do one additional counter followed by an immediate shake as if it will get him in deeper or something. Obviously this won't work out well in a sch. trial. What are suggestions on keeping him to push on the suit and teaching to pull on sleeve without compromising the work? My dog just turned 3 and started at about a year old in training. I have come up with some ideas and have my own thoughts on where his training stands but want to get your ideas. will it be unclear to him what exactly is wanted and when? stick to suit sports only? (at least with this dog), etc. thanks


I would just make sure your dog has a good out. 

In order to keep your dog honest when he is on the sleeve I would allow the decoy to lock up and let the dog counter a few times before the out. 

I think it really is dependant on how competitive you want to be. If you want to win, the details are important......if you want to have fun in all sports then you have to compromise


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## Timothy Stacy

A puller with a real bite. http://www.youtube.com/user/K9Attacks#p/u/6/SQpi1xL45Jg
He looks a little confused at first but the bite looks good to me!


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## will fernandez

liked the pulling..targeting the arm and slow entry were not what I would like to see but hey got the job done effectively and safely.


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## Max Orsi

I second what Will said.

A good example of a successfull pulling bite, but the subject was wearing almost nothing.

From the same youtube channel a less successful pulling bite where the dogs ends up with just a shirt

http://www.youtube.com/user/K9Attacks#p/u/0/Ss4Cc8YJpKc

and a non puller bite

http://www.youtube.com/user/K9Attacks#p/u/12/VFtIXsVoe1w

Happy training

Max


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## Timothy Stacy

1st vid could be a shitty dog for all we know.

2 video is a good pusher for sure.

Is it possible that dog in the video _I posted got hit with a bean bag?_


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## Max Orsi

I agree Timothy, but when pulling on the bite there is always a chance for that to happen, especially when the subject is fighting as in the second video.

Much better chances of success for the dog if he is pushing in the bite.

Happy training

Max


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## Timothy Stacy

I like pushing myself Max but some dogs that bite super hard and hump back like a mule are just fine for me too. If taught to bite the leg it would be impossible for a criminal to stay on his feet. Just want to pose some possibilities. I know Dick said they don't allow it at his club but that video of that KNPV puller that was posted earlier in this thread shows the guy struggling to stay on his feet. Seems hard for the criminal to strike the dog with any real force, especially if a GSD is pulling with much more weight behind it. Another thought about training a Police dog to pull is the dog should still be promoted to grab the body and the decoy shouldn't be slipping the bite purposefully to avoid displeasure on a puller. I'm saying the dog gets no satisfaction from humping back until he has the entire arm in his mouth(I'm referring to suit work) Could that be the problem with some of the cloths biters? I do get why some people prefer pushing.


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## will fernandez

driving into the bite and countering with the body(both repeatedly) is to me the ideal picture.


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## Jim Nash

Sorry popping in and out of this conversation in between court breaks . 

Can't get into much detail but in my experiance I find a K9 that's committed on the bite and holds it strong is the best . Regardless of pushing or pulling as long as they go in and get a good grip onto the suspect ( not the clothing ) . 

I don't like a dog that counters too much though but sometimes it's neccessary . Flesh tends to give . I've seen some suspects take advantage of a dog that counters too much even though they had a good grip on the suspect and slip the bite enough to get over a fence or to some shelter . 

In most situations I have been in I find my K9 pulling the suspect out in the open is best for me .

I can see where a pusher can be advantageous in certain circumstances but in the majority of apprehensions i've had I like my K9s pulling the suspect out into the open . 

Here's one of our newer K9's on a real apprehension , can't tell how good the bite is on the video but I can tell you he bites nice a full . I was present for his very first real apprehension and it was very nice . Looked like a very seasoned confident K9. Never would have known it was a new dog , first time . 

In this case like most I prefer that he pulls the suspect out of the vehicle instaed of pushing the suspect and keeping him in the vehicle and possibly having to go in and pull them out . Just my preference though .

http://www.myfoxtwincities.com/dpp/news/minnesota/k9-police-chase-huron-blvd-minneapolis-jan-8-2010

I would like to clarify that I don't think we train our dogs to pull for tactical reasons . I really have never discussed it with anyone . That just seems to be what we get the majority of the time and what I prefer in most circumstances . Also from reading others posts here it made me realize that some of our dogs do push into a suit but the vast majority pull on the sleeve . Never noticed or thought of that before now .


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## Jim Nash

Also , the video involving the beanbags , it has been discussed before and the dog was hit by a beanbag going in hence the hesitation at one point .


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## Rigel Lancero

So guys with all that,can we say that a pusher and a puller is innate?I mean they were born that way,some will push and some will pull.

Can we train a dog that pulls to push his bites?

Lastly,can we see these traits in pups?Most pups I see,especially the high drive pups often pulls when doing rag work.


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## Max Orsi

The answers to your questions have been given in this thread.

Go back and read from the beginning

Happy training

Max


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## Rigel Lancero

Thanks for the info Max,Ill just review all the posts.


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## Timothy Stacy

Another puller with a mouth full of flesh.
http://shkola-orlova.ru/view/55525f3e6598296f26635a45ff8925b0.xhtml


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## Martine Loots

James Downey said:


> Martine I have to politley disagree on a few things here. First one is "grip" I have never heard to describe the dogs whole additude. But used to simply describe the mechanics of the dogs bite.
> 
> I also have seen dogs that pull, whom are absolute monsters and can handle pressure just fine....in fact some love the work and beg for more.
> 
> I also notice some dogs that only have 3/4 grips and push like the dickens are only doing so, because they want the pressure to shut off, and they believe that if they fight hard enough it will shut off. These dogs often also are some of the hardest biting dogs I have seen. In fact dogs most dogs with "real" aggression I have seen fall into this category.


No problem, James.

But in al these years that I've been in dog training, I've seen hundreds of dogs, but never in my life, I've seen a "good grip" when a dog was pulling.
In Belgium, when we judge a grip, there is more to it then looking how full the mouth of the dog is.
No, a grip can only be perfect if a dog really goes for it and this means that he doesn't only want the suit, but that he wants to get to the man inside the suit. He has to dig deeper until he gets hold of the arm or the leg "underneath" and squeeze that to "jelly" (don't know how this is said in correct English, but I hope you understand :wink

No way a dog that only bites "the suit" is going to stay in my kennel.

The second part I'm afraid I don't understand. How could a dog possibly be pushing if he only has 3/4 grip??



James Downey said:


> Who's to say which dog is good or not? And when I said perfect grip I was refering to full, hard grips. but using your definition you can have a puller with a perfect grip (whole additude is strong) I have seen plenty of dogs like this.


No, I don't agree
For me, if a dog pulls, I'll never consider this a good grip. In BR "pulling in the grip" always costs quite a few points.


----------



## Martine Loots

Timothy Stacy said:


> Another puller with a mouth full of flesh.
> http://shkola-orlova.ru/view/55525f3e6598296f26635a45ff8925b0.xhtml


OMG and it looks like they put this as publicity on that website :-o:-o

This is one shitty dog and "lack of confidence" is screaming all over him...


----------



## Timothy Stacy

Hard to say without knowing the dog and my opinions have flip flopped back and fourth. Not sure what to think. From what I heard the helper stick corrected the dog the bite prior to this with intended results and the 2nd time was this! Chris M. posted before that the dog wasn't gonna take that shit again, maybe he was right. Just not sure!


----------



## Timothy Stacy

If you are a member of workingdogeu you can check out some more vids of the same dog 
http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/94331/Vyatkins-Glock


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: This is one shitty dog and "lack of confidence" is screaming all over him...

Or a dog that lacks understanding of the exercise and is tired of being wacked with a stick.


----------



## Timothy Stacy

Vyatkins' Glock









http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DPTVkKX4tBo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWr_WXsoZ1g


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## Max Orsi

It is impossible to judge a dog from a video or 10, without being in the suit yourself.

The dog shows to have nice drives, but all the work is on his training decoy, which in my opinion, beside in the B&H, is doing a very good job.

Had the handler done a better job with the line, the incident could have been avoided.

In the videos the dog is only 14 months old, or so the poster states, a lot of aggression for such a young dog.

I would not mind having him in my kennel to get to know him better.

Happy training

Max


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen

I don't think it is impossible at all.


----------



## Max Orsi

We will have to agree to disagree on that one.

In my opinion and experience, while watching a video or a dog performing live, you can only tell about about the training.

I have worked plenty of dog that "looked pretty good" just to find out that there was nothing behind the appearence.

I have also worked a few that look like $h1t that were very nice and had they had a chance to get better foundation and more appropiate work would have been nice.

What is your opinion on "Glock"? Just curious.

Happy training

Max


----------



## Joby Becker

Martine Loots said:


> ... but that he wants to get to the man inside the suit. He has to dig deeper until he gets hold of the arm or the leg "underneath" and squeeze that to "jelly" (don't know how this is said in correct English, but I hope you understand :wink


Makes perfect sense to me!


----------



## Rigel Lancero

Does it really matter if a dog push or pulls on the bite? I think what really matters is the fight of the dog and how committed is the dog in the bite.


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: I think what really matters is the fight of the dog and how committed is the dog in the bite.

But HOW is the dog committed in the bite ?? 

I am just curious to what you really learned in this thread. I often wonder that. Sometimes I think that people just shop for opinions.

Then I wonder if maybe my perception is ****ed. I doubt it, but that is just me. In a perfect world, I don't want a dog that pulls. I want a dog that just crushes. I think that what I want, and what the dog is doing are very often two different things.

If a dog is just pulling to get the sleeve to get off, is that really the dog, or retarded training. Look how the sensitive little Sch helpers don't want the dogs feet on their clean little scratch panties. 

If a dog is biting deeper, shaking head and coming off a little, and biting deeper, is this dog a shitter because his bite is moving ?? Look how many people think that to be true.

I think that most new people try to over simplify something that they will never be good at, which is reading a dog. They just want black and white, and you can see this after however many pages.

Then they just take what they think they have learned and go **** up definitions everywhere.

Committed to the bite means **** all. Committed to hurting the man is what you are looking for if you are looking for a strong dog.

However, don't be disappointed when you don't see one for a long time.


----------



## Ron Davidson

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote:
> If a dog is biting deeper, shaking head and coming off a little, and biting deeper, is this dog a shitter because his bite is moving ?? Look how many people think that to be true.
> 
> I think that most new people try to over simplify something that they will never be good at, which is reading a dog. They just want black and white, and you can see this after however many pages.



I'll have to agree with this. One thing I believe and think is black and white about a dog on the bite. I have never seen a "shitter" as it's called on the board with a pushing grip. Though what I consider a pushing grip might be different than some people. Every shitter I've ever seen that actually bites has a pulling grip. 

A pushing grip to me signifies a dog that has "forward aggression". That is a term we throw around a lot in our group. A dog that has true pushing grips is telling the decoy f*** you. I don't care what you do. I'll just bite you harder until I win. That's the kind of dog I like.


----------



## tracey schneider

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: I think what really matters is the fight of the dog and how committed is the dog in the bite.
> 
> But HOW is the dog committed in the bite ??
> 
> I am just curious to what you really learned in this thread. I often wonder that. Sometimes I think that people just shop for opinions.
> 
> Then I wonder if maybe my perception is ****ed. I doubt it, but that is just me. In a perfect world, I don't want a dog that pulls. I want a dog that just crushes. I think that what I want, and what the dog is doing are very often two different things.
> 
> If a dog is just pulling to get the sleeve to get off, is that really the dog, or retarded training. Look how the sensitive little Sch helpers don't want the dogs feet on their clean little scratch panties.
> 
> If a dog is biting deeper, shaking head and coming off a little, and biting deeper, is this dog a shitter because his bite is moving ?? Look how many people think that to be true.
> 
> I think that most new people try to over simplify something that they will never be good at, which is reading a dog. They just want black and white, and you can see this after however many pages.
> 
> Then they just take what they think they have learned and go **** up definitions everywhere.
> 
> Committed to the bite means **** all. Committed to hurting the man is what you are looking for if you are looking for a strong dog.
> 
> However, don't be disappointed when you don't see one for a long time.


That's a five star post right there!

T


----------



## Kadi Thingvall

Ron Davidson said:


> I'll have to agree with this. One thing I believe and think is black and white about a dog on the bite. I have never seen a "shitter" as it's called on the board with a pushing grip.


I have to disagree. I wouldn't call the dogs "shitters" but I've seen some dogs with forward biting styles who weren't actually that strong and fell apart under pressure. They pretty much went from forward to not biting. I've seen pullers though who also did that, went from 100% full to 0% full, there wasn't a 100 , 90, 80, ... to 0

I think griping style is genetics, but after the dog is born the training has an effect, pushers can be taught to pull, pullers can be taught to push, and each dogs natural style can be improved through good training. Just like bad training can destroy the dogs style. I like a dog who is forward/pushing in the bite, but I'm more concerned with how much pressure the dog can handle.


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## Matt Grosch

I still think of the KNPV dogs I train with, and one of the 2 nastiest was the only one raised in the US, he pulls where all the others push


My guess is that he is a bad ass and was just trained differently


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## Rigel Lancero

Kadi Thingvall said:


> I have to disagree. I wouldn't call the dogs "shitters" but I've seen some dogs with forward biting styles who weren't actually that strong and fell apart under pressure. They pretty much went from forward to not biting. I've seen pullers though who also did that, went from 100% full to 0% full, there wasn't a 100 , 90, 80, ... to 0
> 
> I think griping style is genetics, but after the dog is born the training has an effect, pushers can be taught to pull, pullers can be taught to push, and each dogs natural style can be improved through good training. Just like bad training can destroy the dogs style. I like a dog who is forward/pushing in the bite,* but I'm more concerned with how much pressure the dog can handle.[*/QUOTE]
> 
> Hey Jeff,this is what I am talking about. Like you,I would choose a dog that pushes in the bites rather than a dog that pulls but the highlighted quote is what in my opinion is more important and that is what I meant on committed,maybe there's a different way to describe that.
> 
> And Yes,I am interested on other people's opinions with regards to this matter,is there a problem with that? Is it against the forum rules? I think this is what a forum is all about...opinions.


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## Martine Loots

Kadi Thingvall said:


> I think griping style is genetics, but after the dog is born the training has an effect, pushers can be taught to pull, pullers can be taught to push, and each dogs natural style can be improved through good training. Just like bad training can destroy the dogs style. I like a dog who is forward/pushing in the bite, but I'm more concerned with how much pressure the dog can handle.


Fully agree except for one thing and that is that "pullers can be taught to push" because I still have to see the first one. But then I mean "pushing the way *I *like it and my standards are very high.
A dog with my definition of "a pusher" will always handle pressure without any problem.


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## Martine Loots

Rigel Lancero said:


> Does it really matter if a dog push or pulls on the bite? I think what really matters is the fight of the dog and how committed is the dog in the bite.


All depends on what your target is.
Fully agree with you that the dog has to be confident and committed, but if your target is to do a ringsport where there are a lot of points on the grip, then it's no use to go on with a dog that pulls.


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## Michael Breton

Not sure if you still want video. As usual the thread took off, but an interesting topic. My 2 cents - I like pushers, not pullers. They rarely break canines on suspects(or decoys) when you drag them from out from under the car. I work a lot of K9s with broken or missing canines. I suspect after working them it's from their style of grip. 

Pushing is easy to teach, it's all timing and reward. The dog in the video was a terrible puller, that is what he was getting rewarded for and there is a lot less pressure from the decoy pulling rather than pulling. Moose is driving into the decoy after two sessions. It was an easy fix. The back teeth do a lot more damage, hurt more and a hard to break on a leather jacket, button or belt. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vvw3_4i1oQg


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## Michael Breton

Sorry, I fat fingered part of that. I meant 

there is a lot less pressure from the decoy pulling rather than pushing.

not there is a lot less pressure from the decoy pulling rather than pulling

Saw it to late to edit it.

Here is another pusher if you care to watch

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eWo0y_nUgnw&NR=1


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## Martine Loots

Michael Breton said:


> Not sure if you still want video. As usual the thread took off, but an interesting topic. My 2 cents - I like pushers, not pullers. They rarely break canines on suspects(or decoys) when you drag them from out from under the car. I work a lot of K9s with broken or missing canines. I suspect after working them it's from their style of grip.
> 
> Pushing is easy to teach, it's all timing and reward. The dog in the video was a terrible puller, that is what he was getting rewarded for and there is a lot less pressure from the decoy pulling rather than pulling. Moose is driving into the decoy after two sessions. It was an easy fix. The back teeth do a lot more damage, hurt more and a hard to break on a leather jacket, button or belt.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vvw3_4i1oQg


Nice dog!


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## Jim Nash

Michael , I really hope you don't sell any dogs with targeting training like the one in your video to a Police Department .


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## David Frost

Jim Nash said:


> Michael , I really hope you don't sell any dogs with targeting training like the one in your video to a Police Department .


Took me a minute to find the right video. I did. I also agree with Jim, bad ju ju. 

DFrost


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## Howard Gaines III

Michael Breton said:


> Sorry, I fat fingered part of that. I meant
> 
> there is a lot less pressure from the decoy pulling rather than pushing.
> 
> not there is a lot less pressure from the decoy pulling rather than pulling
> 
> Saw it to late to edit it.
> 
> Here is another pusher if you care to watch
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eWo0y_nUgnw&NR=1


 Sounds like a cheap p$*n to me! The handler *was very* involved! Good work TEAM!!! Back to the local news.................


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## Michael Breton

Why I even bother to post is beyond me. WTF did where the dog targets have to do with the thread? Did you or Davis post a video about the subject of the thread?

The first video is a current police K9 I didn't train or sell, someone else did and the dog needed a lot of work to get it ready for the street. It is, and the handler is very happy with the dog. So is every other handler I sold a dog to or whose dog I worked.

The second video was a dog PPD the CUSTOMER specifically asked me to target right where he bit me. He also bites arms, legs and anything else he can get. He lives right near where they shot the cop killer that took down 4 LEOs in Lakewood. He is also VERY happy with that dog. All the boys in the hood know about his dog and he sleeps well at night. 

The post was about pushing instead of pulling which BOTH videos show. If you want to comment about the pushing or pulling go for it. That was what the post was about and both dogs in the videos push.

Last post from me, have fun on your forum.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

You are not really gonna have a fit over that are you ?? Make your point, then ask WHY would you say that Mr Nash ??

I am afraid you are gonna have to surrender your man card, and put on this skirt until such time that you can be trusted not to behave like a woman.


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## Michael Breton

Now Jeff, my man card is just fine and I'm bigger and even uglier than you so I look terrible in a skirt. I'm just tired of reading drivel from people that can't stay on task on the threads or think I care about their opinion of me. Not all of us love to stir up the nest like you. On this forum it is a required skill.

I joined to learn and help when I thought I could. I learned ripping people is great fun. Unless you are one of the "select" crew most times helping is painful.

I'll let you fight the good fight and do the posting. I have dogs to work. Wrong I'm sure, but still have to work them.

Post On my friend Post On. I'll still read them. I get a good smile


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Nest stirring is a required skill to get the good stuff out of people sometimes.

The video was pretty dark, and pretty much there was no way to really see what was going on in that first part.

Keep posting video, or I will have to send that skirt out. HA HA


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## David Frost

Michael Breton said:


> Here is another pusher if you care to watch
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eWo0y_nUgnw&NR=1


I'll certainly comment on this. It was mentioned that comments were not adherring to the topic of the thread, when post like is posted, commenting on it is indeed adherring to the topic of the thread. 

Generally speaking, there are two areas police training should not "target", the face and the crotch. A department that does so, not only sets itself up for some considerable liability issues, but affects every department that deploys patrol dogs. If the PP people want to target the crotch, then by all means do so. We (law enforcement) are in a position where we will have to defend, at some point, the use of the dog as force. It's not a matter of "if" it's a matter of "when". When I do defend our dogs (again and again) it will not now, or ever, be a result of targeting ANY specific area on the body.

DFrost


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## Michael Breton

Again, what this has to do with pushing or pulling is beyond me. I don't remember the post being a targeting topic or a police K9 topic, for sure not a police K9 targeting topic. I didn't see where I offered the crotch biter for sale to a department. 

It was about pushing vs. pulling and could someone post a video. I never said "Hey make sure your police K9 bites in the crotch and then pushes" I said " I like dogs that push because they tend to break less canines". And I have to tell you Piccante pushes and pushes and pushes. He pushes on the arm bites, leg bites, back bites and yes the crotch bites. Key words - he pushes, in a video like the original poster asked for. I don't have a video of a puller, but I guess if I wanted to stick my face back into the chainsaw again I could find one. Naww.

Now you are on your high horse about how you and all K9 handlers live to a better standard than all other dog handlers. Give me a break David. I've seen video and pictures of meat bites handlers brag about and pass around about their bites, yes even, oh my crotch and face bites. Look for your own quote that goes something like "suspect apprehended, ambulance rolling" giggle giggle. Making jokes about dogs biting suspects online is good for K9 programs too isn't it. Lawyers never read these boards. That would be bad juju and bad for a police dog program.

The bottom line is the dog bites what he gets at a full run or while he protects the handler and I am happy if the handler and dog get away without injury to work tomorrow. That is all I care about. I don't train PK9s to target the crotch, but I wouldn't melt if one bit there and the handler/dog went home safe.

PUSH or PULL, David, not target. That is for another thread. You are a moderator and should tell people they are off topic and to open a new thread or move it to the correct area. Doesn't count for you?

Comment on how the dogs PUSH or PULL, that I'd like to hear. I know you are a wealth of info, I've met and trained with one of your handlers. He has nothing but praise, for you and I would love to hear how I could improve the PUSHING or PULLING of the dog on the video. I'll ask for help with the targeting on another thread. Hmmm, maybe not:grin:


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## David Frost

Michael, the title to the video you posted is: Piccante on the bite suit doing crotch bites. You posted the video sir. I don't get on a high horse, I state my position. You've never seen videos of "meat bites" from any of the dogs I've trained. I can't control other departments. Privately, do we ohh and ahhh and perhaps get a good giggle, durn tootin'. I agree, as a moderator I should redirect threads when they are off target. The post I commented on was in direct response to a video you posted on this thread. In my mind, that makes it subject to comment. 

DFrost


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## Jim Nash

Michael , 

I wasn't even going to respond based on your initial reaction to my comments . It's pretty obvious you aren't open to criticism . 

But since it's continued I'll jump in . 

I am very familiar with how serious it gets when a PSD bites a suspect in the crotch . Happened to a neighboring department around here and it made national news . A thread even started on this site about it .

It was an emotionally disturbed suspect that was naked and breaking into homes in a neighborhood . The K9 tracked the suspect and the suspect charged the K9 team resulting in the K9 biting his crotch and removing some parts . 

The first thing activists , lawyers , supervisors , media and concerned citizens want to know is : " WAS THE K9 TRAINED TO TARGET THE CROTCH ? " . Then the lawsuits start claiming excessive force . 

In this case the K9 wasn't taught to bite there and they had plenty of evidence to support it . 

The dog however was taken off the streets . 

If you haven't already , I suggest you read the ENTIRE case of Robinette v. Barnes . 

As a matter of fact I suggest you go to Terry Fleck's website K9 Legal Updates and read as many cases on there as possible in their entirety . I would hope you come out with a completely different view of what you are doing posting crotch bites videos (even if they are only involving citizens you train ) . 

The biggest threat to the use of PSD's in America in it's current useage , is being found to be Deadly Force . That was what they were attempting in Robinette v. Barnes (K9 located suspect hiding under a veh. and the first most obvious spot to apprehend the suspect was in the neck , suspect died of the injuries) and it is what lawyers usually attempt to do when there are contraversial or ugly dogbites from a PSD . 

Part of what made the ruling go in Law Enforcement's favor was it WAS NOT trained to target the neck . Because of this the court found the K9's biting of the neck was a fluke ( they used some bigger word , that I can't recall at this moment) . 

Things could have been drastically different if it was found or the opposing lawyers could have found something good enough to INFER that that K9 had specific training in targetting that area . A crotch bite could have the exact same arguement and subsequent outcome if the ruling was the use of that K9 was Deadly Force . That outcome could lead to K9's being used as ONLY locating tools and if the dog was to be used to bite it would be ONLY in Deadly Force situations around the country . 

Who would use a dog to bite in a Deadly Force situation when a gun is a much better tool for that ? 

You came on here posting a crotch bite and on your profile just to the left of your posting I see training in POLICE K9 . 

You are right lawyers do read this stuff and for years I've not discussed this topic on a public forum because I felt it would give these lawyers something to work with . I've discussed it in private with many Law Enforcement trainers and haven't met one who didn't think this was a big problem . 

Well with the age of Youtube things have changed . Guys like you are giving these lawyers everything they need . Lawyers love Google . 

I no longer think putting our heads in the sand and talking about it in private is an effective solution . I'm seeing more and more Ring dogs coming into Law Enforcement . Know of a civilian dog trainer training PSD's to bite the crotch also . He has since been fired . 

They(Ring dogs) are usually impressive dogs in there work and many departments fall for this and have no knowledge of the legal use of force issues they may have with a dog with targetting issues like that . 

Think for a minute if one of the PSD's you train (even if you didn't train it to target the crotch) bites a suspect there . All they have to do is Google where the K9 was trained from and BAM , Salsa or whatever it's name in living color hanging off your johnson ! 

I'm sure you will argue you could convince the court that the PSD didn't have training to target the groin and I hope for all of our sakes you're right . But you sure don't help yourself posting videos like that .


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## James Lechernich

Jim,

Thanks for that excellent and informative post!


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## Selena van Leeuwen

@ Michael: also mods can post here as member. We always do in the first place, if we respond as mod we make that clear in our tone of voice or to mention we say something as a mod.

David reacted really nicely to your post, and much more polite than I would have.

@ Jim, thank you for that post, very informative. 'cause the goal of the KNPV is to train dogs for police, military etc, it is one of the reason only arm and legbites are used. People don't find it ethical to learn the bite the dog elsewhere. And because of a possibility of a flight of a suspect a leg bite used to be preferred. Nowadays not many people use a legbite in a front attack (you have to know the thechnique and not many people (trainers and decoys) know it anymore), but a lot of the flights in the programme is still on the leg.


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## Michael Breton

I don't know how much clearer I can make this. The video is NOT posted pertaining to targeting period. I hope that is clear now. If not, I can't make it any clearer. 

Selena, I could care less if you are polite or not. Say what you want, I'll borrow Jeff's dress if I think I need it. I never said or will say David was rude. I have great respect for David, doesn't mean I have to agree with everything he says or does. He's a big boy and has been around the block, I think he can handle our discussion if he can handle 200 dog teams.

Jim,
While you bring up great points about use of force and targeting and I agree with you. They had nothing to do with the post on pushing vs. pulling. They still don't. Start a post on targeting and use of force. You have great info and I'll be sure to read it. Just from what you wrote I can see you have lots to contribute. I've read lots of Terry's info and it is great stuff.

I am always open to constructive criticism, but please the topic was not targeting nor if I should sell dogs to a department that target there. Was the grip bad or did the dog look like the pressure was too much for him. Why is pushing or pulling used in different departments, does your department use the dog like a fish-hook to extricate or as a controller until the suspect can be controled by handler/backups. That is the feedback that belongs on this thread. If you don't like the targeting and think it was inappropriate for the post PM me and tell me. I would have been glad to delete or request a mod delete it. Same as I would have for David. 

The video was shot so the handler could show his friends in Chile's Special Forces his dog. His first dog was the first Malinois in Chile and he used to train with them. He is proud of his dog, go figure. The video also shows his dog driving forward (pushing) during the bite work as requested in post 1 of this thread. Condescending remarks about the dogs name. Really. 

BTW, I video EVERY session of EVERY dog I work, tracking, obedience, detection all of it. I can show every bit of training a dog has had with me down to the timestamp. Can't see where you are if you don't know where you were. I think I'll be OK, but thanks for the heads up. 

Please do start a thread on "Use of Force" and targeting and targeted training. I'd love to read it. 

We are so off topic on this post, my apologies to the original poster, he can choose to watch the videos or not. I like pushing not pulling. After that, this thread is done for me.

Have a wonderful day. I have to go tracking.


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## Jim Nash

Michael , 

If you read this entire thread you will see I have contributed to this thread in ways you have asked of me already . 

Things go slightly off target in many threads as long as it is slightly related and still informative most don't seem to have a problem with it .


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## David Frost

Just for the record; it's only 45 dog teams. 

DFrost


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## Michael Breton

sorry, I didn't to give you more work than you already have!


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