# 8.5lbs a day??? Really????



## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

I swear Jesea (4.5yrs) is really going to eat me out of house and home. She seriously is at 8 to 9lbs of food a day AND looks like a greyhound. 

All bloodwork and x-rays are normal. 

Any ideas???? 

She is now on half raw (4.5lbs) and then a kibble meal at night (3.5 cups Wellness Core) as she is running me out of food for the others.....

She is one of those freak dogs in the kennel....spinning, barking and jumping. 

When Sarah Mandler had her for three months she actually put weight on her. She was crated and then taken out to work, play and potty several times a day. 
I hate to do that to her, but it is looking like my only option at this point. Guess I could do it at night....

My gut tells me that there has to be something else going on, but I can't think of any other tests to run on her?


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Is Wellness Core a carb/grain free food? I have not had good luck keeping weight on my dogs when feeding grain free, especially the hard keepers. They have done better on a combo of raw and kibble, and the kibble being something with some grain or other carbs in it. Another option is adding pasta, doesn't seem to matter what type so you can go with just elbow macaroni or whatever is cheap. 

It also sounds like Sarah had the right idea, if the dog will only take in 1500 calories (I'm just throwing out a number) a day, and burns 1500-1600 a day, well ... A little "down time", however you do it, may be what she requires so she's not going nuts and burning calories constantly. If you don't like the idea of crating her, what about just taking her places when you leave the house? She'd still be crated, but in a vehicle where she can watch the world go by, unless she's a fruit loop in a crate also.


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Carol Boche said:


> I swear Jesea (4.5yrs) is really going to eat me out of house and home. She seriously is at 8 to 9lbs of food a day AND looks like a greyhound.
> 
> All bloodwork and x-rays are normal.
> 
> ...


What kind of raw? I'd recommend fatty meat like beef trim from the butcher. I've found I can put weight on the dogs by putting them out in a large play area instead of a kennel. High strung kennel dogs because much, much calmer in a very large yard..may sound odd, but it works as they don't get worked up with dogs next to them. Then I throw out whole tripe and other scraps and let the dog eat as much as it wants. Never hurts to routinely put the dog on Panacur paste 5 day regiment to be sure there are no parasites sharing the grub. This has worked for me on many rescues and rehab dogs.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

I can put weight on any dog by feeding them 3-4 chicken leg quaters in the morning, and a few cups of kibble in the evening. Like Debbie said, put them in a large kennel run away from the other dogs, many dogs gets crazy in a small run with other dogs around them and they spin and bark all day long. Put the dog in a quiet area, maybe even put a bark collar on the dog. Red Paw makes a chicken fat product that is a liquid, it is made to keep weight on sled dogs, put a few tablespoons a day on the dry kibble and I guarantee the dog will gain weight.
Sometimes I get dogs in from Europe that look like hell (dry, bridle, dull coats; just skin and bones with bad teeth.) Usually in about 2-3 weeks I can have them fat and in good condition with much better looking teeth.


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

She is isolated AND wears a bark collar.....without the collar she barks (less spinning) and with the collar she spins like a friggin top. She is okay in a large yard (40' x 70', and larger) til she sees the cats.....then it is game on marathon laps for hours....

Wellness Core is grain free, but she gets Quinoa grain with her raw meal (I add a cup and a half Honest Kitchen). She eats chicken quarters, beef, pork, buffalo, venison, rabbit as well as ground fat that the meat locker grinds for me. 

Eggs, salmon oil, Vit E. 

Satin Balls 3 times a week. (8 of them)

I do bring her to work a few times a week, I split time at the office with all dogs. More than one and Doug starts making comments....LOL 

I worm quarterly, and also give heartworm preventetive as I travel quite a bit. 

Am going to look up Red Paw and probably order some of the stuff Mike mentioned.....

She is awesome, but she is a freak......

Is this what you are talking about Mike? 
http://www.redpawfeed.com/balancedfat


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

REALLY???! That is a lot!

This probably won't work for you as the issues are likely different, but maybe worth a try...

I had trouble keeping weight on my guy for a while. You might remember he used to barf bile if he was not fed right on time. I started splitting his feedings into three or four meals a day (not changing the over all amount), so he would not get the bile barfs as he always had some food in his stomach.

Somehow for him it had the effect of better digestion/absorption, and he actually put on weight for the first time ever.

I actually had to cut back his food for the first time ever this year.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

When you said bloodwork, I'm assuming that was a 5-8 panel thyroid? The last dog I had the was hard to keep weight on, oatmeal did the trick for some odd reason.


Terrasita


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Jennifer Coulter said:


> I started splitting his feedings into three or four meals a day (not changing the over all amount), so he would not get the bile barfs as he always had some food in his stomach.
> 
> Somehow for him it had the effect of better digestion/absorption, and he actually put on weight for the first time ever.
> 
> I actually had to cut back his food for the first time ever this year.


Good point. After Mac's obstruction I was feeding him 3-4 small meals a day, I'd just measure out his normal daily amount and break it up into little meals. After a week or two I had to cut back, he was getting fat, and normally he tends to run lean. I think I cut his food back to about 2/3 the normal amount and he was maintaining weight. Now that he's back on his normal feeding schedule he's also back to his normal amount. Might be time to go back to multiple meals


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> When you said bloodwork, I'm assuming that was a 5-8 panel thyroid? The last dog I had the was hard to keep weight on, oatmeal did the trick for some odd reason.
> 
> 
> Terrasita


Yes, that and whatever else they checked for, would have to dig out her file to check.........

I will start portioning her meals so that she eats 4x per day as well as some crate time.....during the day and at night. 

She has always been hard to keep weight on, but it seems to be worse, which is why I can't help but think that I am missing something maybe.......


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## Guest (May 28, 2010)

I'd be careful with the fatty meats and straight fat additives as they can cause pancreatitis in one serving. Not something you want to deal with. I had a dog like this and it was something in the water or the raw diet because we moved out of state and switched to mostly TOTW kibble and he almost immediately began to recover and put on about 10 lbs of muscle in very short order and has kept it on since. He's on Acana now and doing great almost fat on 1.75 cups a day plus some meaty knuckle ends to crush eat every week.


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Thanks Vin. 

We thought of that too, as she as I have always added fat to her meals. Wonder about adding more though. 

Will start with more meals per day and crate time.....and then see where we are at.....


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## Guest (May 28, 2010)

Oh Carol! I forgot to mention. After a lot of bloodwork, our vet recommended a digestive enzyme supplement that is only available through vets. It is bovine based amylase, lypase etc.. I forget what it is called. We used it for several months and saw a lot of improvement in his stature and in his BMs. We later switched to Prozyme and saw the same results. He was on Prozyme for a few years and is now pretty much fine without it. The dog, not the vet


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

I do use Probios and live cultured yogurt.....will check into the stuff from the vet. Since this is cattle country I am sure I can find that..... 

I really appreciate all the help guys....I am just at a loss as I keep upping her food intake and try to do what I think will help......

Her energy levels are normal, stools are good, she doesn't vomit and she doesn't play out and get tired at all.....it's just odd.


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## David Feliciano (Oct 31, 2008)

Feed her something slow digesting at night right before bed (cottage cheese works well) You may also want to try feeding her first thing in the morning to break her fast so to speak. Ideally she should eat every 3-4 hours until she puts the weight on.


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Cottage cheese has too much salt......and does not have the digestive enzyme qualities that I look for. 

She gets kibble at night now, I doubt there is anything slower digesting than that.


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## Meghan Rabon (Feb 10, 2009)

One of my GSD's was similar, she would sometimes eat 8-10 cups of Innova Evo a day and was still skinny. Her thyroid was tested and was normal, and she always had solid stool so I don't think it was a digestive issue.
I switched her to 100% raw last summer at about 3 years old and she did great. I was thinking she'd have to eat a ton of food (since she needed so much kibble) to keep the weight on, but she eats just over 3% of her body weight which is pretty normal. 
I don't do anything special in the way of supplements/enzymes. She does get bee pollen and salmon oil. But otherwise she just eats regular meat, lots of venison, chicken, some beef, pork, mutton, turkey...I don't seek out foods with high fat or anything like that. 
Could you try switching to 100% raw? Maybe some dogs just don't do so well on dry food.


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Meghan, 

She has been on 100% raw for a long time. I just recently (after weight loss) to kibble at night as I was going through my freezers at a high rate of speed....and I have 5 dogs here that are on raw. 

It is frustrating for sure as I don't like to use kibble a whole lot.....


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## Meghan Rabon (Feb 10, 2009)

Ahh sorry, if only it was that easy!!!

Has she been on any NSAID painkillers recently? Those could cause ulcers which can lead to weight loss.
Could also be the heat maybe causing the weight loss? Running around like an idiot in the heat would burn more calories than in the cold...I'd think LOL


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## Pamella Renaldi (Mar 6, 2010)

Carol Boche said:


> She is isolated AND wears a bark collar.....without the collar she barks (less spinning) and with the collar she spins like a friggin top. She is okay in a large yard (40' x 70', and larger) til she sees the cats.....then it is game on marathon laps for hours....
> 
> Wellness Core is grain free, but she gets Quinoa grain with her raw meal (I add a cup and a half Honest Kitchen). She eats chicken quarters, beef, pork, buffalo, venison, rabbit as well as ground fat that the meat locker grinds for me.
> 
> ...


If you want to use raw fat I think you can get the chicken fat from the meat store. I think chicken skin also have a lot of fat.


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## Dana McMahan (Apr 5, 2006)

My Malinois is a parvo survivor and since then, he's never been able to put on any weight. I've tried virtually everything with few things actually making any difference .... the most succesful was going to a cheap, corn-based dog food. Some kibbles he did better on than others. Blue Buffalo, Nutro High Energy, Pro Plan Performance are all okay for him. Canidae he did the worst on (all my dogs loose weight on it). Innova, Acana, Evo never made any difference. 

Right now he gets raw (2-3lbs) and then a mixture of Purina Dog Chow (my cheap kibble) and Pro Plan Performance. Most days he's on 2lbs raw because if I do 3lbs every day, it just goes right through him. So I have to skip days in between. 

Doing smaller meals throughout the day definitely made a big difference. I try and keep him on 3-4 meal cycles per day. 

Yougart, Probiotics (Fasttrack), Creatine, Whey Protein, Digestive Enzymes, Vertex, Satin Balls, canned dog food, Mac 'n Cheese or other cheap pasta, spoonful of lard, tripe/xkaliber... never made any difference with him but I've used on other dogs with good results. Usually with weight issues the Satin Balls work perfectly.

Typically everytime I enter him in a competition, I get 2-3 people come up to me afterwards to give me their words of wisdom on his weight problem. The only one I haven't tried that I think might be worth a try was fish, specifically smelt. Thats on my to-try list. Most suggestions I get are the above.

Oh, and I would definitely recommend crating. I switched Malachai to a kennel when I moved and he lasted about a week in the kennel before I had to move him back to a crate. He just loses too much weight if he's allowed to move around all day. As others mentioned, a larger area that doesn't have the noise/activity would probably be better but being in a kennel run just made him stress and lose weight.


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## Sherry Spivey (Sep 7, 2009)

I would be careful with the fatty foods until you have a TLI test done. There are a lot of dogs with weight issues that test in the low range for EPI which is non digestion of fat.

One of my girls has EPI and she was just under the normal range. I have since gotten 5 other GSD's diagnosed and treated all have gained weight with the enzymes. Vixen had all normal bloodwork and a normal ultrasound. It wasn't until the TLI test that we finally figured out what was wrong.

Dogs that have EPI issues do not gain weight. They eat and eat and lose weight.


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## Jackie Lockard (Oct 20, 2009)

My Dutch pup was hell to put weight on. Can be a bit of a pickier eater and at some points I was feeding him six cups and his ribs/hips were still sticking out. I started him on CPN's vertex and within a week I noticed a huge difference. Two weeks later he was a perfectly healthy weight, no more hip bones!


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## Dana McMahan (Apr 5, 2006)

Sherry Spivey said:


> I would be careful with the fatty foods until you have a TLI test done. There are a lot of dogs with weight issues that test in the low range for EPI which is non digestion of fat.
> 
> One of my girls has EPI and she was just under the normal range. I have since gotten 5 other GSD's diagnosed and treated all have gained weight with the enzymes. Vixen had all normal bloodwork and a normal ultrasound. It wasn't until the TLI test that we finally figured out what was wrong.
> 
> Dogs that have EPI issues do not gain weight. They eat and eat and lose weight.


Are there multiple test for EPI? Malachai was originally tested positive and treated for pancreatitis, which we later found out was caused by the intestinal blockage he had. I can't seem to find the paperwork but I took him back in after the surgery a couple different times to test for the pancreatitis. When they did the test I don't recall it being a range, but rather a positive/negative test. So how would you know if a dog is at a low range or is TLI a different type of test?


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## Sherry Spivey (Sep 7, 2009)

Dana Williams said:


> Are there multiple test for EPI? Malachai was originally tested positive and treated for pancreatitis, which we later found out was caused by the intestinal blockage he had. I can't seem to find the paperwork but I took him back in after the surgery a couple different times to test for the pancreatitis. When they did the test I don't recall it being a range, but rather a positive/negative test. So how would you know if a dog is at a low range or is TLI a different type of test?


No, the TLI test is the only one for EPI. And all shepherd owners should know this test and the symptoms. A lot of vets are not familiar with the disease or the test. 70% of the dogs diagnosed with EPI are german shepherds. The normal range is 5.7 - 45.2 µg/L although dogs under 2.7 are considered EPI.

http://www.epi4dogs.com/epi.htm

Chronic pancreatitis can cause EPI but I believe the testing is different.

Table 1. Most Common Signs Observed in 109 German Sherpherd Dogs with Epi* Vs 186 Normal German Sherpherd Dogs
Grey or Yellowish feces	99%	
Large amounts of feces	95%
Defecation > 3x /day	90%
Lean body or cachexia	90%
Frequent flatulence	88%
Diarrhea several times per week	77%
Coprophagia	61%
Polydipsia	51%
Vomiting	38%
Skin problems	14% (not different from control group)
* Exocrine pancreatic insufficiency / from Raiha & Westermack 1989 
Signs

Dogs with EPI usually present for investigation of chronic diarrhea (feces of large volume and cow-pat consistency, often yellow to grey in color) and weight loss (mild to extreme), which is often associated with a ravenous appetite. Pica and coprophagia are also common. A poor hair-coat (hair loss, eczema, dryness, scurf) polydipsia and marked muscle loss are observed in some dogs.


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## Dana McMahan (Apr 5, 2006)

hmmmm...... I know he's had a lot of bloodwork and other tests run but now I'm wondering if they did a TLI. Might be worth re-testing him either way since his last set of bloodwork was done during the time he had an intestinal blockage. Thanks for the information..... !


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Dana Williams said:


> hmmmm...... I know he's had a lot of bloodwork and other tests run but now I'm wondering if they did a TLI. Might be worth re-testing him either way since his last set of bloodwork was done during the time he had an intestinal blockage. Thanks for the information..... !


Ditto.....I am wondering the same thing and am going to pull her file.


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## Dana McMahan (Apr 5, 2006)

On hold with my vet right now but they said they gave him a STEC-CPL test which I looked up and its here:

http://www.drugs.com/vet/snap-cpl-test-kit.html

Trying to figure out if they can do a TLI or if I have to find a particular vet to do one.


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## Sheena Tarrant (Sep 21, 2008)

Just completely anecdotal, but I was talking to a vet the other day that mentioned she knew a dog with EPI, and the owner fed the dog pig pancreas every day as a supplement. Said the dog seemed fabulously healthy for a dog with EPI.


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

4th meal of the day just fed, and she gets about two hours of kennel time as I have to go mow 4 acres......

Will crate her for the night and then start again tomorrow. I did notice she was eating her meal slower.....so that is a plus.


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## Sherry Spivey (Sep 7, 2009)

Sheena Tarrant said:


> Just completely anecdotal, but I was talking to a vet the other day that mentioned she knew a dog with EPI, and the owner fed the dog pig pancreas every day as a supplement. Said the dog seemed fabulously healthy for a dog with EPI.


Absolutely, because the enzymes being feed are nothing more than freeze dried pancreas. However for the average person access to fresh pancreas is almost impossible. Apparently it is illegal to sell in most states. Which is a total shame because it is a throw away product and would be incredibly cheaper to treat the disease if it were available.

Almost impossible to find a real butcher nowadays anyway...

Your vet should be able to send the blood work to Texas A&M for processing. My vet did the research and has had no problems working with them. I spent tons of money on tests until we finally figured this out. I have since sent several people for the test and every one I have sent for it has ended up with a diagnosis where their vets had failed to figure out the problem. Almost every vet wants to prescribe the "low residue food" to fix the problem and it won't do it. The dogs need the enzymes to be able to process the food or they slowly starve to death. It's a very treatable disease once you know what you are dealing with. It's not cheap to treat however. The person with access to the pig pancreas is very lucky.


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## Sherry Spivey (Sep 7, 2009)

Sorry, just another thing. I believe it needs to be a fasting bloodwork. Not sure that you need a specific vet, but they will need the protocol to draw and send the blood to the appropriate place. You will also need to specifically ask for a TLI. Like I mentioned before a lot of vets aren't really familiar with the test or the disease. I have sent people to my vet just because he is now aware of how to diagnose.

I basically did a lot of the footwork for him on the treatment, he did the footwork for diagnosis. It was definitely a team effort and is one of the reasons I use this vet even though he costs me a bit more money than most. He doesn't blow me off when I tell him there is something wrong with my dog.


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## Anne Pridemore (Mar 20, 2010)

I just caught this post and I think Sherry is on to something- I would look into the testing for EPI. I read up on it some when I had a GSD female that never gained a pound and tested clear for parasites/infections. She did turn out to have EPI and thankfully did get adopted into a home that understood her special needs. It is not a very common thing, but it is worth testing for if you have tried everything else.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

EPI is fairly common here, I know of a couple of dogs (gsds) diagnosed with it, one of them diagnosed at a particularly young age. It is a specific TLI test for diagnosis as I believe, just to add, those two dogs are successfully managed on pig pancreas, I think it comes in a powdered form, AND are working, saw a couple of pics of them a wee while back and they were both looking good.


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## Sherry Spivey (Sep 7, 2009)

I just mentioned it because it sounds familiar. The symptoms are there and I would definitely rule it out especially before adding a lot of fat to the diet which could make things worse. I have seen several cases here. Some in older dogs, most recent in a 15 mos old that has been having problems but slowing getting worse. I was told it was most commonly diagnosed in German Shepherds, female and in the 3-6 yr range. BUT it can be in any breed, sex or age.

My girl was diagnosed at 4 and is now 10. She continued on in agility and worked until she was 9.

The big thing is how they handle the stress. Vixen would get a mild case of pancreatitis when she was over stressed. I would be careful about working until you get the dog leveled out and put weight back on it. And then monitor the dog as you put it back to work. But it is definitely manageable.

I would NOT consider breeding a dog with this issue. It is considered to have a genetic component, although it can be caused by pancreatitis. GSDCA was funding a study on this but I have not seen the results.


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## Dana McMahan (Apr 5, 2006)

I don't think I've ever been so depressed to hear my dog has a normal result ... blah ... was hoping the TLI would answer the question for why he is so skinny but the vet left a message saying the results came back and he is all within a normal range. Going to call in tomorrow for specifics since we also did some additional panels. Its strange because he looks just like those dogs in the pictures on the EPI website and has all the same symptoms.


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Just an update....Jesea is up 3lbs just from crating for 8 hours a day, changing her location (kennel run) to an even "quieter" one and keeping the kibble/raw mix.

She is by far the hardest dog I have ever had to keep. LOL

Have not ran her with the fourwheeler, but rather just worked source, played tug and fetch.....


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## Mo Earle (Mar 1, 2008)

Carol, glad you are getting some results with the raw/kibble-( and crating) that is what we are feeding our dogs, but my Aunt has a Golden Retriever on Wellness,a rescue, and when she got him he was losing weight, vet check perfect, didn't seem to be stressed at all...they added Green beans to his food, and it made the difference, not exactly sure why, but it did help, no more weight troubles =maybe the fiber slowed the absorption,so he took in more of the nutrients, and not sure if all dogs will tolerate green beans- but it helped him? .


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