# Drive Capping



## Connie Sutherland

I'm hoping I can get a discussion going of drive capping.

Maturity plays a big role in the dog's ability to cap himself, right?

If he doesn't seem able to, and he gets a little hectic, and "leaks" drive (maybe whining, yipping, etc.), and his ability to think clearly starts to suffer, are there exercises to teach the dog to cap himself?

Actually, I'm hoping for a general discussion on drive capping. Capped drive means that the dog is bottling it up, right, and not letting it seep out in bits, but only in the awaited and desired "pop"?


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## kerry engels

I have started using "quiet" with some success. If I don't dog spools up like a turbo on the field with OB and Decoy's present.


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## leslie cassian

I would love to have seen this thread a few years ago. Now I suspect it's too late to fix the massive 'leakage' I so often get with my Mali.


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## Tim Connell

Obedience for bites, and calm, quiet for bites...the reward for control is a bite. At first, just a moment or two of silence...and build the "quiet time threshold" up slowly, until they can hold their mud a bit. (I know...easier said than done, sometimes)


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## Mario Fernandez

It is Obedience when it all comes down to it.


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## Julie Blanding

I think there are also dogs that are just better at it, genetically it's easier for them.


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## Connie Sutherland

Julie Blanding said:


> I think there are also dogs that are just better at it, genetically it's easier for them.


So do I. I'm sure of it._



"Obedience for bites, and calm, quiet for bites...the reward for control is a bite. At first, just a moment or two of silence...and build the "quiet time threshold" up slowly, until they can hold their mud a bit. (I know...easier said than done, sometimes)"_

Tim, does this carry over into clearer thinking when in high drive?


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## Jane Jean

kerry engels said:


> I have started using "quiet" with some success. If I don't dog spools up like a turbo on the field with OB and Decoy's present.


I've had to use this everytime I give a command "SIT quiet" "Fuss quiet" because my dog was barking during protection. I then started using touch with the command...I put a bit of fingertip pressure at the base of his ears when I said quiet. It worked wonders and after a few sessions I have a quiet dog unless he is doing a H&B! He is pretty balanced so that is the only thing we've had an issue with leaking drive. And like Tim posted, reward bites are happening when he is in control of his heeling and vocals.


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## Dave Colborn

Connie Sutherland said:


> I'm hoping I can get a discussion going of drive capping.
> 
> Maturity plays a big role in the dog's ability to cap himself, right?
> 
> If he doesn't seem able to, and he gets a little hectic, and "leaks" drive (maybe whining, yipping, etc.), and his ability to think clearly starts to suffer, are there exercises to teach the dog to cap himself?
> 
> Actually, I'm hoping for a general discussion on drive capping. Capped drive means that the dog is bottling it up, right, and not letting it seep out in bits, but only in the awaited and desired "pop"?


I think ability vs. maturity, although an older dog would likely be able to contain himself longer through training.

Leaks drive...haha. that just gives a funny mental picture, but is very descriptive to me, anyway. You could take your dog to your mechanic/plumber to plug the leak...

You have to variably release it when raising/training the dog or they will learn to release it how they want. It has to all be done in anticipation of the reward, or it is not capping, is it? IE if you tell your dog quiet, and they hold position and are quiet a little longer, then the dog should be allowed to explode into a bite on a decoy or toy. Increase time for the reward, to get the dog to hold it in longer. If you correct and knock out of drive, or reward too slowly, the drive appears to diminish.

Persisting in a correct behavior in anticipation of reward?


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## Dave Colborn

Jane Jean said:


> I've had to use this everytime I give a command "SIT quiet" "Fuss quiet" because my dog was barking during protection. I then started using touch with the command...I put a bit of fingertip pressure at the base of his ears when I said quiet. It worked wonders and after a few sessions I have a quiet dog unless he is doing a H&B! He is pretty balanced so that is the only thing we've had an issue with leaking drive. And like Tim posted, reward bites are happening when he is in control of his heeling and vocals.


Would you progress this to fingertip pressure at the base of his ears on "sit" at some point, and then extinct the fingertip and quiet command altogether, so sit virtually becomes sit and be quiet?

How did you enforce quiet or suggest to the dog it was time to be quiet in your first few verbal repetitions of quiet? The word doesn't get it for the dog obviously, there has to be a stimulus to suggest it, unless you wait it out. Or did saying quiet change your behavior, and became a marker for you to do something else to make your dog quiet. What was your technique to get the dog to quiet, I guess I am saying?


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## Connie Sutherland

Dave Colborn said:


> Leaks drive...haha. that just gives a funny mental picture, but is very descriptive to me, anyway.


Yeah, ha, I guess it does sound funny.

But isn't that really what happens with the whining or yipping: drive is leaking out with the noises? 
_
"You have to variably release it when raising/training the dog or they will learn to release it how they want. It has to all be done in anticipation of the reward, or it is not capping, is it? IE if you tell your dog quiet, and they hold position and are quiet a little longer, then the dog should be allowed to explode into a bite on a decoy or toy. Increase time for the reward, to get the dog to hold it in longer. If you correct and knock out of drive, or reward too slowly, the drive appears to diminish."_

OK, I see what you're saying. (And right .... I had no intention of correcting.)

Off to ponder.


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## Dave Colborn

Connie Sutherland said:


> Yeah, ha, I guess it does sound funny.
> 
> But isn't that really what happens with the whining or yipping: drive is leaking out with the noises?
> 
> _"You have to variably release it when raising/training the dog or they will learn to release it how they want. It has to all be done in anticipation of the reward, or it is not capping, is it? IE if you tell your dog quiet, and they hold position and are quiet a little longer, then the dog should be allowed to explode into a bite on a decoy or toy. Increase time for the reward, to get the dog to hold it in longer. If you correct and knock out of drive, or reward too slowly, the drive appears to diminish."_
> 
> OK, I see what you're saying. (And right .... I had no intention of correcting.)
> 
> Off to ponder.


The correction comment wasnt directed at you, but the correction can actually build drive. I'll let Hill Schwartzman expound on that if he so chooses.

I don't want a dog to whine or yip, but if they are under stress, that may be desireable to an explosion, or just signal it's coming. Once again it takes into account prior training, genetics. Maybe the dog was trained to do that. IE made to cap too long prior to release.


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## Bob Scott

This is always a work in progress with Trooper, my #2 GSD. Holding a finger up (index ) can settle him down easily now but talking calmly was needed a lot in the beginning. At 5+ it still doesn't take much to turn him into Tasmanian Devil. Hell knock over BBQ pits, lawn furniture, slam into the utility shed, over the picnic table, even bounce of my beat up old knees. Holding the finger up with a simple AHHH will stop him in his tracks now even in a full tilt Taz attack but talking calmly is a forever thing with him. Praise has to be calm. Petting has to be calm. He can be crazier then a lot of terriers I've had and happy almost to the point of being simple minded. 
When he's on a sit, down, whatever he holds great but you can see the bottle waiting to explode. Proofing that also had/has to be very calm. Just my grinning at him in the beginning was enough to send him on a.
One of the side effects of his crazy running is I think his tail has been broken a few times because it hangs straight down most of the time. He shows no effect of running into anything at all.
And I thought I'd miss my crazy little terriers. :roll: :wink:


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Dave Colborn said:


> I think ability vs. maturity, although an older dog would likely be able to contain himself longer through training.
> 
> Leaks drive...haha. that just gives a funny mental picture, but is very descriptive to me, anyway. You could take your dog to your mechanic/plumber to plug the leak...
> 
> You have to variably release it when raising/training the dog or they will learn to release it how they want. It has to all be done in anticipation of the reward, or it is not capping, is it? IE if you tell your dog quiet, and they hold position and are quiet a little longer, then the dog should be allowed to explode into a bite on a decoy or toy. Increase time for the reward, to get the dog to hold it in longer. If you correct and knock out of drive, or reward too slowly, the drive appears to diminish.
> 
> Persisting in a correct behavior in anticipation of reward?


 
I was exploring this a couple of years ago with my bouv. Basically, I used marker training. She would prey load/explode around livestock. So spent a lot of time using marker training for external rewards in the obedience context and took her off stock for awhile. Once she was in the state of mind of how to push the slot machine for reward, I went back to my livestock trial training. On stock, you don't have a reward high enough to pull her off the stock. What worked for her is when I marked the calm state, she released. What I've described as prey load and explode really results in her just gathering the stock in her control freak kinda way, not chase, split, etc. The release of the marker was the reinforcer. I started a pretty extreme corgi puppy several months ago. He could load and would bite. Physically corrected he would redirect. It was obvious he was in lala land. I had alread marker trained a down. So I would wait until he would spin himself up and give the down command. Took some doing for him to finally do it he first few times. But when he did, I'd mark and reward. Over a few sessions, when I'd set up the situation around the stock pens where he would race around and spin himself up, he would start and suddenly down himself and look at me. I'd mark/reward. He's 16 months old and when he starts to spin up, he downs. He's also a lot more biddble than my bouv and external reward means something to him. Also a correction from me has an effect. Correcting my bouv in a certain drive state means nothing. But unlike Rhemy, she's also never redirected aggression. In comparing the two I've come to the conclusion that pack drive plays a role in the capping context. Khira is just straight up hard headed and doesn't give a damn about any sort of correction from me. Rhemy has a willingness even outside of the reward context that she doesn't. I started all of this to have control in la la land. What he does is keep himself from going to la la land. So he caps himself but there went my control in la la land theory. After reading the protection training threads a few years ago, I became convinced that the beginning herding training [independent walkabouts] were the equivalent to drive building without implementing control in bite work. I was hooked on Balabanov's "The Game" for control in drive. Used this concept with Bob's dog and it really enhanced his control within drive on stock. So Rhemy hasn't had the walkabout phase of stock work. He already has the drive and the instinct. I need to be in his head [mostly for the trial field]. So all my work has been control in drive work. With the marker work, he continues to self cap on his own and that state of mind becomes his working state of mind instead of the spun up control freak more hectic state.

T


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## Connie Sutherland

_"When he's on a sit, down, whatever he holds great but you can see the bottle waiting to explode. Proofing that also had/has to be very calm."_

This is something I was hoping to read but hadn't articulated .... that the capping didn't also reduce the drive. Perfect description of "bottle waiting to explode" rather than bottle leaking fizz around the cap.


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## Geoff Empey

Connie Sutherland said:


> _"Obedience for bites, and calm, quiet for bites...the reward for control is a bite. At first, just a moment or two of silence...and build the "quiet time threshold" up slowly, until they can hold their mud a bit. (I know...easier said than done, sometimes)"_
> 
> Tim, does this carry over into clearer thinking when in high drive?


If the dog can't contain him/herself over a ball or tug in OB, how can we expect the dog to have a clear head when a decoy is in the picture? It's all in the foundation of it how you set things up before the decoy comes in. Many are in a rush to get on the 'man', with some dogs it isn't a good thing IMO. There has to be some steps in place to get there.


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## Connie Sutherland

Geoff Empey said:


> If the dog can't contain him/herself over a ball or tug in OB, how can we expect the dog to have a clear head when a decoy is in the picture? It's all in the foundation of it how you set things up before the decoy comes in. Many are in a rush to get on the 'man', with some dogs it isn't a good thing IMO. There has to be some steps in place to get there.



Yes, of course you are right. The dog seemed to be clear-headed in Ob, but now there will be going back. Foundation wasn't overlooked, and there was no rush ..... but obviously something was missed. Thank you.


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## Gillian Schuler

I have the feeling that "capping" is something that the handler should control. I can't see how a dog can "cap" itself without the support of the handler.

If the handler is not able to "steady" the dog, then the dog reaches a drive that the handler feels he has to combat and then the problem starts with the dog frustrated with the handler's "capping".


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## Howard Gaines III

Connie like shaking a bottle of "pop," it's the calm before the foam.

We cap our dogs in the protection drive, they hit harder because the drive is center focused and not a crazy reaction with no direction.

Focused energy is what I would call it!


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## rick smith

is a dog who is dirty in a blind a sign of leaking drive ??


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## Connie Sutherland

Connie Sutherland said:


> Yes, of course you are right. The dog seemed to be clear-headed in Ob, but now there will be going back. Foundation wasn't overlooked, and there was no rush ..... but obviously something was missed. Thank you.



OTOH, don't you think there can still be dogs who what you do with a ball or tug in obedience is not always going to carry over into protection?


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## Geoff Empey

Connie Sutherland said:


> OTOH, don't you think there can still be dogs who what you do with a ball or tug in obedience is not always going to carry over into protection?


It's the same thing Connie. OB is OB whether it is with a ball or a man. Well in 'sport' any ways.  

I've found this usually happens when a dog doesn't get around the decoy or the equipment much when it doesn't transfer. There is ways to desensitize it and the ways are you have to work the OB around the man/equipment is the first step. Then you can start giving the dog reward bites for compliance in OB as others have pointed out. 



Rick Smith said:


> is a dog who is dirty in a blind a sign of leaking drive ??


I don't really think so. It's a sign of many things i.e. lack of self control, most likely though lack of confidence or even fear.


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## Connie Sutherland

These are some really good posts here. Thank you!


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## Joby Becker

Geoff Empey said:


> I don't really think so. It's a sign of many things i.e. lack of self control, most likely though lack of confidence or even fear.


most likely through lack of confidence and fear?

I might beg to differ on that one in lots of cases...but do see your point.


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## Jane Jean

Dave Colborn said:


> Would you progress this to fingertip pressure at the base of his ears on "sit" at some point, and then extinct the fingertip and quiet command altogether, so sit virtually becomes sit and be quiet?
> 
> How did you enforce quiet or suggest to the dog it was time to be quiet in your first few verbal repetitions of quiet? The word doesn't get it for the dog obviously, there has to be a stimulus to suggest it, unless you wait it out. Or did saying quiet change your behavior, and became a marker for you to do something else to make your dog quiet. What was your technique to get the dog to quiet, I guess I am saying?


Before I went to the finger pressure I was popping him or the slow pressure "up" on the collar to correct the bark. That made him ramp up a bit more so it was suggested to me to say the word quiet with every command and then use the touch instead of the collar pressure. And I was also told to leave my hands off the tab! It worked, was more of a calming thing than a correction if that makes sense? Though my dog isn't over the top drive-wise so it worked for him, may not others that aren't as clear when bitework is going on.


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## Steve Strom

Gillian Schuler said:


> I have the feeling that "capping" is something that the handler should control. I can't see how a dog can "cap" itself without the support of the handler.
> 
> If the handler is not able to "steady" the dog, then the dog reaches a drive that the handler feels he has to combat and then the problem starts with the dog frustrated with the handler's "capping".


Hey Gillian, when the dog outs after an escape bite or a courage test and goes into a silent guard, you're no where near him. Wouldnt he be capping himself? I know its trained, but you arent there to steady him, right?


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## Connie Sutherland

Dave Colborn said:


> Would you progress this to fingertip pressure at the base of his ears on "sit" at some point, and then extinct the fingertip and quiet command altogether, so sit virtually becomes sit and be quiet?
> 
> How did you enforce quiet or suggest to the dog it was time to be quiet in your first few verbal repetitions of quiet? The word doesn't get it for the dog obviously, there has to be a stimulus to suggest it, unless you wait it out. Or did saying quiet change your behavior, and became a marker for you to do something else to make your dog quiet. What was your technique to get the dog to quiet, I guess I am saying?



Did you maybe wait for quiet and capture it (mark/reward)? I mean way back when you first started this.

I don't know if I'm asking the same thing Dave is, but I think so. I'm asking how you first associated "sitting QUIET" with your command (and/or your touch).

This is interesting; I'd like to hear more.


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## Geoff Empey

Joby Becker said:


> most likely through lack of confidence and fear?
> 
> I might beg to differ on that one in lots of cases...but do see your point.


It can Joby, for sure. i.e. A dog that is dog aggressive. Does it want to fight the other dog? Or does it react in self preservation because of lack of confidence/fear and strike first? A lot would go the latter. Same thing coming into the blind is it dirty because it wants the prey item, can't cap itself or is not confident and strikes first to relieve some of the stress?


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## Nicole Stark

Dave Colborn said:


> You have to variably release it when raising/training the dog or they will learn to release it how they want.


I considered what I have observed with this and came to a conclusion that you sum up pretty well with the above statement. And in that, a single word stands out to me. Learn.


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## Bob Scott

Connie Sutherland said:


> OTOH, don't you think there can still be dogs who what you do with a ball or tug in obedience is not always going to carry over into protection?



Protection is nothing more then a very high level distraction. :wink:


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## Dave Colborn

Bob Scott said:


> Protection is nothing more then a very high level distraction. :wink:


Except they have to bite a man vs. a toy. 

Some dogs never see the bite equipment (toy), as their natural inhibition about biting the man covers up any desire they have to bite. Not important to this discussion other than to say, some dogs just won't bite close to or on the skin of humans, thus making them a good pet.


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## rick smith

my Q was not related to a fear biter ... i had a different reason for asking 

a dog aggressive fear biter is pretty easy to recognize and imo should not even be on a training field, let alone doing B/H's and running blinds....if a dog in this category was allowed to get this far in training the TD should maybe be replaced 

when i get time i'll try and find some vids of what i meant by a dirty dog


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## Faisal Khan

Very interesting subject and something I always struggle with in training Gnash. For him capping drive is directly related to pack order. Very natural for him to slip out of pack and out of control. To get him under control it takes high (extreme) levels of pressure. Some dogs are just too much!


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Gillian Schuler said:


> I have the feeling that "capping" is something that the handler should control. I can't see how a dog can "cap" itself without the support of the handler.
> 
> If the handler is not able to "steady" the dog, then the dog reaches a drive that the handler feels he has to combat and then the problem starts with the dog frustrated with the handler's "capping".


I created a lot of conflict trying to control/cap mine. I think the difference for me is that I don't want the explosion as part of the work. It can be part of the release which because of the marker, I have control of. So I need the dog to control himself and keep himself in a slow leak sorta, until the release. Maybe its the same. I don't know. Geoff Empey's stuff on capping and distance in ring sorta helped me figure out a few years ago how to fix this with Khira in my context.

T


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## Dave Colborn

Is a dog doing a guard barking in a blind "leaking drive"? I have never heard this term, and wanted to use it in a sentence, but my question is serious. Isn't he losing energy no matter how he appears? Just doing it constructively within the confines of what he is told to do?


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Geoff Empey said:


> There is ways to desensitize it *and the ways are you have to work the OB around the man/equipment is the first step*. Then you can start giving the dog reward bites for compliance in OB as others have pointed out.
> .


How much drive building do you do before implementing the controls and/or obedience and how did you work out the control at a distance?

T


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Faisal Khan said:


> Very interesting subject and something I always struggle with in training Gnash. For him capping drive is directly related to pack order. Very natural for him to slip out of pack and out of control. To get him under control it takes high (extreme) levels of pressure. Some dogs are just too much!


I've come to this conclusion with my bouv. She has zero sensitivity to anything in the height of that drive and she's not motivated by me to cap it and doesn't want to. My young dog I started with the marker at 12 weeks when I got him. But also along with what Geoff is saying, I established this very early around the distraction--in my case livestock. I also think frequency of contact and doing the control work is important. In the marker context, that which isn't reinforced, extinguishes. Even though my young dog has a pack drive that my bouv doesn't without the marker, I think I'd just have stress/conflict and frantic/hectic "dirtty" or unclear work with redirected aggression.

T


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## Geoff Empey

rick smith said:


> my Q was not related to a fear biter ... i had a different reason for asking
> 
> a dog aggressive fear biter is pretty easy to recognize and imo should not even be on a training field, let alone doing B/H's and running blinds....if a dog in this category was allowed to get this far in training the TD should maybe be replaced
> 
> when i get time i'll try and find some vids of what i meant by a dirty dog


It would good to see what you mean Rick on video and your reason for asking. I wasn't meaning that every dog that bites dirty in the blind is a DA fear biter, but that some of it can/could be based on fear that's all. A dog doesn't have to be a DA fear biter to have 'fear'. That was just an example to explain where I was coming from to Joby. :smile: 



Terrasita Cuffie said:


> How much drive building do you do before implementing the controls and/or obedience and how did you work out the control at a distance?


It all depends on the dog really T. Both my dogs were born with a fire that I never had to stoke, so drive was never the problem. With my younger male we did a lot of building in other areas i.e. bite, shaping of exercises, showing the dog opposition in play etc. He never saw a prong collar until he was over 18 months old. By the time he was 2.5 and he started to mature into an adult dog and come into all his testoserone is when drive capping and control issues started to rear their ugly heads. 

Compulsion didn't work with this dog, at least compulsion in a traditional sense. The hammering with a prong or getting choked just hardened him and the compulsion had to be elevated and elevated to get the same drive capping result or even worse results. So since we were hardening him to correction, he was just accepting the correction as a 'rule or condition' to continue to play the game his way. Compulsion will work for some dogs I guess, but not this one at least for every situation. 

So the close up stuff now we use focus and contact with the handler as a base of all things. From far away it gets a bit more difficult. So this is where having a training decoy who understands the plan is paramount. The training decoy becomes an extension of the handler in that regard. I guess you could use an e-collar as a back up but I wouldn't use one for all things, as again I wouldn't want to harden the dog to the tool. It is better to get into the dog's mind by other means. 

I look at it this way to get into the dog's head. What does the dog want? (in my case 'the bite') We can use that to shape the capping of his/her drive. It is a simple concept really but it requires a strong foundation around focus at the same time not building the dog into being handler sensitive as that is a danger too. It's a big balance to have a dog that wants and is committed to bite, to one that handler sensitive. The dog still needs to be biddable to the handlers commands and yet ready to explode into the man at the drop of a hat. 

Every dog is an individual and how you approach it has to be what the dog needs to drive cap and keep under control. I think that is the biggest thing. What works for my dog may not work for his litter mate and vice versa.


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## rick smith

leaking means "losing it" to me (dog in high drive losing control)

- to me a dog doing a B/H (when it should) would certainly not be losing any control or leaking anything ... quite the opposite, but with that said, all dogs will have a limit as to how long they can keep up the intensity, and if it loses intensity i say it's probably a handler mistake and duration was applied improperly

(re: dirty bites) i see a lot of heavy compulsion being used in vids when this starts happening, and for sure with dogs like Geoff was referring to, i can see how it could have the opposite effect and harden the dog to corrections ... iow it's a required balancing act with good timing

my ref to a ("leaking or not?") dirty bite in a blind was more in lines with a dog who has not been well conditioned to know a bite will come after an out is required and wants to get "one last parting shot" when outed ... i'm sure many of you have seen dogs do this and get a SHARP correction for the dirty bite ... i see it as a bad foundation and my OPINION is that dogs started late in outing may do this more than others who have been better conditioned that an out is only a "temporary" halt in what it really wants ... to bite ... and that another one is "just around the corner" 

... iow it may be a result of the way the out was first taught, and i happen to think it should start with many many bites w/ immediate REbites rather than let the dog get dialed in so much that ANY outing will add unnecessary conflict
...... make any sense ? do i have it bassackwards ?

there are tons of videos of dirty bites on a trial/training field... not only in blinds, and certainly not because they were mostly fear biters, which was what Geoff said was one of the most likely causes so i just wanted to be clear i wasn't referring to that kind of dog and emphasizing a fear biting DA dog should not be allowed to even start training for sport

even tho there is obviously an out in EVERY bite, i can never figure out why it is usually taught much later than the biting "dynamics", except that some people may think this will have a disastrous effect on a sport dog. i would also note that this style of (early) out training may not be appropriate for a dog being trained for psd/mwd work where crisp instant outing may not be a desirable response compared to fighting thru any compulsion applied. 
.... which is also why i feel the purpose the dog will be used for should determine many of the training methods used to get there

guess i'll agree "leaking drive" is a stupid term since dogs don't have drives in the same sense as a gas tank holds gas

how about grip duration if we are referring to bite/grip issues ? //lol//
do dogs grip in lo drives too ?
is that what a "calm grip" looks like ?
...never mind ... getting goofy here 

btw, i've never seen a typewriter grip; gotta look for a vid of those...seen em chewing tho and as long as it would quickly result in a better deeper grip i probably wouldn't complain about it if it was my dog ... and maybe that's also when the tug/sleeve gets yanked out too quickly and the dog gets blamed ?

all this "theoretical cyber stuff" probably does need vids tho.....


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## Howard Gaines III

IMO, dirty in the blind is either a lack of proper training or a failure to understand what is expected. Go back to step one...


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## Bob Scott

Dave said
"Except they have to bite a man vs. a toy."

Agree 100% but for me and my dogs the control in tug work was the beginning of control work for biting the man (and stock work). I mention stock work because stock brought out more desire/drive in my dogs then any sleeve or bite work ever did. Of course this can very well be a breed thing.
I may be misunderstanding but why put the man in front of the dog for bite training and THEN begin control work? IMHO that's exposing them to more pressure then needed in the beginning. Why not get the dog under a bit of control first? Of course this brings into play the method of control used and at what age.


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## Dave Colborn

Bob Scott said:


> Dave said
> "Except they have to bite a man vs. a toy."
> 
> Agree 100% but for me and my dogs the control in tug work was the beginning of control work for biting the man (and stock work). I mention stock work because stock brought out more desire/drive in my dogs then any sleeve or bite work ever did. Of course this can very well be a breed thing.
> I may be misunderstanding but why put the man in front of the dog for bite training and THEN begin control work? IMHO that's exposing them to more pressure then needed in the beginning. Why not get the dog under a bit of control first? Of course this brings into play the method of control used and at what age.


Bob. Would you develop bitework with no control? IE work him on the man biting in several situations, and then put the control on after he bites well, or put control on and then teach him to bite. 

I want a biting fanatic, but that doesn't mean I can't train him to bite and train control away from the decoy, and then slowly introduce the two together when he has the HP I want to see out of him.


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## Bob Scott

"I want a biting fanatic, but that doesn't mean I can't train him to bite and train control away from the decoy, and then slowly introduce the two together when he has the HP I want to see out of him"


That's my point! Your training the control away from the decoy. The bite work is separate from the control work in the beginning. 
The bite work, for us, starts with tug/rag work as a pup or young dog. By the time the man (sleeve) is introduced the pup/young dog has learned to enjoy the "biting "game". Put the man in front of the pup/young dog in prey and build the seriousness off that if that's what you want out of the dog. 
With a serious dog the has the willingness (here we go again :grin the bringing together may or may not be quicker. That would depend on how easily the dog and be controlled/capped. 
Thoughts?


My words
"but why put the man in front of the dog for bite training and THEN begin control work"

I see where my wording can be a possible contradiction of what I mean. I meant why begin control work a the same time you introduce bite work.


----------



## Dave Colborn

Bob Scott said:


> "I want a biting fanatic, but that doesn't mean I can't train him to bite and train control away from the decoy, and then slowly introduce the two together when he has the HP I want to see out of him"
> 
> 
> That's my point! Your training the control away from the decoy. The bite work is separate from the control work in the beginning.
> The bite work, for us, starts with tug/rag work as a pup or young dog. By the time the man (sleeve) is introduced the pup/young dog has learned to enjoy the "biting "game". Put the man in front of the pup/young dog in prey and build the seriousness off that if that's what you want out of the dog.
> With a serious dog the has the willingness (here we go again :grin the bringing together may or may not be quicker. That would depend on how easily the dog and be controlled/capped.
> Thoughts?
> 
> 
> My words
> "but why put the man in front of the dog for bite training and THEN begin control work"
> 
> I see where my wording can be a possible contradiction of what I mean. I meant why begin control work a the same time you introduce bite work.


 
We are speaking the same language. just wanted to make sure. 

Training motivationally, you can introduce a lot more at the same time than when using compulsion only. So I would guess it might be brought together quicker. I mean, why don't we train whole exercises vs. pieces. It's easier for a dog to learn the pieces.


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## Bob Scott

Again 100%
Break ANY exercise down to as many behaviors as possible. Get them correct as individual behaviors and then chaining them together is a piece of cake! 
I've always been amazed at folks who teach a retrieve by tossing something and then hoping for the best.](*,)


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## rick smith

so Bob and Dave ... you both essentially agree on when to bring the man into the picture and build behaviors in steps, etc ... me too of course 

does what i wrote about when to train the out also also fit in there somewhere ?
"... iow it may be a result of the way the out was first taught, and i happen to think it should start with many many bites w/ immediate REbites rather than let the dog get dialed in so much that ANY outing will add unnecessary conflict ...... make any sense ? do i have it bassackwards ?"
... and will this mess up a dog and make it auto out, etc ?? seems like tons of people are paranoid about this and maybe the main reason why they start out training way down the line after they have conditioned their possessive little gator


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## rick smith

just so you don't read it wrong ....
i meant --start the "out" training-- ... not "start out training"


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## Dave Colborn

rick smith said:


> so Bob and Dave ... you both essentially agree on when to bring the man into the picture and build behaviors in steps, etc ... me too of course
> 
> does what i wrote about when to train the out also also fit in there somewhere ?
> "... iow it may be a result of the way the out was first taught, and i happen to think it should start with many many bites w/ immediate REbites rather than let the dog get dialed in so much that ANY outing will add unnecessary conflict ...... make any sense ? do i have it bassackwards ?"
> ... and will this mess up a dog and make it auto out, etc ?? seems like tons of people are paranoid about this and maybe the main reason why they start out training way down the line after they have conditioned their possessive little gator


I never taught my dog an out on the man. He just had a really nice sit. So when he sat, he got a re-bite, just like on the toy.


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## Howard Gaines III

Bob Scott said:


> Again 100%
> Break ANY exercise down to as many behaviors as possible. Get them correct as individual behaviors and then chaining them together is a piece of cake!
> I've always been amazed at folks who teach a retrieve by tossing something and then hoping for the best.](*,)


I Like and this is just like teaching shop kids woodworking safety. 
Show the steps and tell WHY each is important.
When one screws up, use it as a teaching LESSON. <chopped up finger, see use the pushstick!>
Like the Three Stooges said, "Step by step, ..."


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## Bob Scott

I start the out with motivational work while doing tug work. It doesn't take long at all for the pup/dog to realize how to get the tug game going again. Simply give it back. This can help make it easier when biting the man is introduced.
From a sport point of view I teach the out with the decoy locking up. I know that's not necessarily the best thing to do with a K9 or PPD. It can creat a dog that automatically outs when the fight is stopped. 
I've "heard" that IPO is wanting to get away from that and the dog not out until told to. I would agree with that!


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## Dave Colborn

Bob Scott said:


> I've always been amazed at folks who teach a retrieve by tossing something and then hoping for the best.](*,)


But Bob. That's one way to teach it motivationally... Throw it and stand there until their mouth gets on it and mark...

Or just get a dog that likes to retrieve.


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## Bob Scott

Dave Colborn said:


> But Bob. That's one way to teach it motivationally... Throw it and stand there until their mouth gets on it and mark...
> 
> Or just get a dog that likes to retrieve.


Yes...and no! :grin: 
When teaching it that way I would never throw it. I want the dog in what I call my area of influence so I would just put it on the ground very near me. I've discussed this with Connie and we both like to start a pup in something like a hall way in the house. It keeps the dog close and nowhere really to run off with it. Tossing it can bring out a stronger prey but once a possessive dog gets to it, it's his!
I do like marking the contact but I want the object in my hands. That can go well with back chaining.
My older dog has retrieved to hand like a working Lab since he was a 4 wk old pup when I first started testing his litter. I think his only real training was putting the formalities of trial work on it. With my younger dog the marking and back chaining was an absolute necessity.


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## Dave Colborn

Bob Scott said:


> Yes...and no! :grin:
> When teaching it that way I would never throw it. I want the dog in what I call my area of influence so I would just put it on the ground very near me. I've discussed this with Connie and we both like to start a pup in something like a hall way in the house. It keeps the dog close and nowhere really to run off with it. Tossing it can bring out a stronger prey but once a possessive dog gets to it, it's his!
> I do like marking the contact but I want the object in my hands. That can go well with back chaining.
> My older dog has retrieved to hand like a working Lab since he was a 4 wk old pup when I first started testing his litter. I think his only real training was putting the formalities of trial work on it. With my younger dog the marking and back chaining was an absolute necessity.


 
So are you teaching a hold or a retrieve? I understand that the hold after retrieve is the goal, but which are you really working on?


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## Bob Scott

Initially just the touch and mark. My non retrieve willingly took it in his mouth the first attempt. He has a good understand of marker training. With him it went right to teaching the hold.
Like we discussed before on breaking everything down into separate behaviors the "hold" is one of the behaviors I train for in the retrieve. The touch/take is first behavior. The hold would be second. 
I wouldn't teach the retrieve without teaching a hold in that progression of behaviors unless, as you said, I have a dog that likes to retrieve. 
Some may physically put the object in the dogs mouth for the hold. I don't....any more.


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## Nicole Stark

So back to drive capping. Is there anymore that needs to or can be said about it?


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Geoff Empey said:


> It would good to see what you mean Rick on video and your reason for asking. I wasn't meaning that every dog that bites dirty in the blind is a DA fear biter, but that some of it can/could be based on fear that's all. A dog doesn't have to be a DA fear biter to have 'fear'. That was just an example to explain where I was coming from to Joby. :smile:
> 
> 
> 
> It all depends on the dog really T. Both my dogs were born with a fire that I never had to stoke, so drive was never the problem. With my younger male we did a lot of building in other areas i.e. bite, shaping of exercises, showing the dog opposition in play etc. He never saw a prong collar until he was over 18 months old. By the time he was 2.5 and he started to mature into an adult dog and come into all his testoserone is when drive capping and control issues started to rear their ugly heads.
> 
> Compulsion didn't work with this dog, at least compulsion in a traditional sense. The hammering with a prong or getting choked just hardened him and the compulsion had to be elevated and elevated to get the same drive capping result or even worse results. So since we were hardening him to correction, he was just accepting the correction as a 'rule or condition' to continue to play the game his way. Compulsion will work for some dogs I guess, but not this one at least for every situation.
> 
> So the close up stuff now we use focus and contact with the handler as a base of all things. From far away it gets a bit more difficult. So this is where having a training decoy who understands the plan is paramount. The training decoy becomes an extension of the handler in that regard. I guess you could use an e-collar as a back up but I wouldn't use one for all things, as again I wouldn't want to harden the dog to the tool. It is better to get into the dog's mind by other means.
> 
> I look at it this way to get into the dog's head. What does the dog want? (in my case 'the bite') We can use that to shape the capping of his/her drive. It is a simple concept really but it requires a strong foundation around focus at the same time not building the dog into being handler sensitive as that is a danger too. It's a big balance to have a dog that wants and is committed to bite, to one that handler sensitive. The dog still needs to be biddable to the handlers commands and yet ready to explode into the man at the drop of a hat.
> 
> Every dog is an individual and how you approach it has to be what the dog needs to drive cap and keep under control. I think that is the biggest thing. What works for my dog may not work for his litter mate and vice versa.


Geoff, can you expound on this a bit. I'm basically starting 2 new[trial] dogs and I think you're on to something. I've basically started everything up close to build the foundation and habit with the idea that it should be the default when you add the distance. I'm curious about your foundation and what it involves specifically. How do you start with the idea of maintaining focus/control in the presence of the stimulus, yet maintaining the drive. Even with the explosion, the dog doesn't just bite any where so its a controlled release/explosion that includes the dogs foundation target training--or so I assume.

T


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## Michael Howard

I normally build all the ' want' that I need in the early days of puppyhood, that can mean carrying a dumbell at 3 month's old or a sendaway around a pole, tracking, bitework. In good working line dogs the 'want' is already there - if it isn't then it must be trained and put there. Once I have the dog crazy for wharever, I then start capping it as I may want a fast retrieve or a fast sit, fast into the bite etc.


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## Geoff Empey

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Geoff, can you expound on this a bit. I'm basically starting 2 new[trial] dogs and I think you're on to something. I've basically started everything up close to build the foundation and habit with the idea that it should be the default when you add the distance. I'm curious about your foundation and what it involves specifically. How do you start with the idea of maintaining focus/control in the presence of the stimulus, yet maintaining the drive. Even with the explosion, the dog doesn't just bite any where so its a controlled release/explosion that includes the dogs foundation target training--or so I assume.


Well for me it is all built around play with the ball/tug. Jumps OB, even the bite exercises and showing the moves of the decoy can be shown with a toy. Focus is all started with baby steps and then adding more duration. i.e. asking the dog to sit 5-10-15 seconds before release etc. Or by having the dog enjoy jumping over a short hurdle with lots of reward for interacting with the handler in that game. I never at this stage ask the dog to 'out' without trading something for it, doesn't matter if it is a ball, retrieve or a bite item. To end a session with an 'out' and putting the toy away you are basically punishing your 'out'. (from a motivational sense) Every toy is not left long to the dogs devices either, it always has tension on it as that way you work the grip to a point too. I interact other rewards in at all times too like 2 ball or a piece of food, it is never the same thing twice. 

I'm not sure exactly what you mean by "target training" I assume you mean transferring it to the man. Bite work is done with leg sleeves or the suit without the man in it and is introduced just like any other toy. Again always back tied. The dog learns to target on either leg sleeves or is placed on the bite in the suit by the decoy. I look at the work with the man like a game of 2 ball. This is where your and the training decoys individual skills as trainers makes a 80% scoring dog or a 100% scoring one. At this point to me is no set formula, only what the dog offers and your abilities to read what the dog needs to be successful.


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## Connie Sutherland

Connie Sutherland said:


> I'm hoping I can get a discussion going of drive capping.
> 
> Maturity plays a big role in the dog's ability to cap himself, right?
> 
> If he doesn't seem able to, and he gets a little hectic, and "leaks" drive (maybe whining, yipping, etc.), and his ability to think clearly starts to suffer, are there exercises to teach the dog to cap himself?
> 
> Actually, I'm hoping for a general discussion on drive capping. Capped drive means that the dog is bottling it up, right, and not letting it seep out in bits, but only in the awaited and desired "pop"?


What about this: Is it plausible that some dogs might use these leaks I was talking about (maybe whining, yipping, etc.) as a sort of focusing mechanism? 

That is, could it be that sometimes, with some dogs, such little outlets might contribute to rather than take away from clearheadedness?


When I was re-reading the thread, this post (# 17) made me look at it again:


Dave Colborn said:


> ... I don't want a dog to whine or yip, but if they are under stress, that may be desireable to an explosion, or just signal it's coming. Once again it takes into account prior training, genetics. ....








(Yes, I realize I'm a slow thinker on this and it has been over 76 days and that it's "very likely that it does not need any further discussion and thus bumping it serves no purpose." :lol:

I am clicking this anyway: "I am aware that this Thread is rather old but I still want to make a reply.")


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## Hunter Allred

Julie Blanding said:


> I think there are also dogs that are just better at it, genetically it's easier for them.


I agree, one of mine caps far better than the other, naturally. However, the second dog who would scream, crawl, break any position etc, I have taught to cap completely. This was a combo of working in lower drive so I could reward good capping/good behavior, working in higher drive and correcting leaking using a choke collar (steady pressure turns off when drive is held in. Used choke as it helps them calm without further stimulus like a prong and it causes minimal drive dumping). And did lots of "turn on/turn off" exercises... Basically what you see about 3 minutes into this video http://youtu.be/hxzwdfx2d98.

If you're consistently leaking drive, however that dog shows it be that whining/screaming/fidgeting or some substitute behavior like heavily eating grass, then you are working past that dogs threshold to hold it in and you must do something about that. Otherwise they will continue to use whatever method works to release that stress.


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## Matt Vandart

One of my dobermans vibrates like a washing machine when I cap her whilst playing tug, she looks like she is gonna explode, it makes me chuckle.


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## Bob Scott

Hunter Allred said:


> I agree, one of mine caps far better than the other, naturally. However, the second dog who would scream, crawl, break any position etc, I have taught to cap completely. This was a combo of working in lower drive so I could reward good capping/good behavior, working in higher drive and correcting leaking using a choke collar (steady pressure turns off when drive is held in. Used choke as it helps them calm without further stimulus like a prong and it causes minimal drive dumping). And did lots of "turn on/turn off" exercises... Basically what you see about 3 minutes into this video http://youtu.be/hxzwdfx2d98.
> 
> If you're consistently leaking drive, however that dog shows it be that whining/screaming/fidgeting or some substitute behavior like heavily eating grass, then you are working past that dogs threshold to hold it in and you must do something about that. Otherwise they will continue to use whatever method works to release that stress.



This is what I need with my GSD #2. He can't stay still or quiet to save his own life without VERY calm praise. Any enthusiasm from me in either praise or physical contact and he's over the top. I can't even pet this dog unless I calmly put him on a sit and calmly pet him while calmly talking to him. When I stop he's off again. He's also way to soft to my voice corrections. I've never in my life had a dog with these combinations. FOR ME a handler soft dog is the weak spot in in my training. That's even with all the marker training. A simple, calm "yes" or click and the Tasmanian goof ball returns. He's gone so far as to break his tail (dead tail) on the BBQ pit during his spaz attacks and gave it absolutely no notice. 
This kills me because his desire to learn is also off the charts. I can't move without this dog following me around, begging to do something. Ultra compliant.....just nucking futs! :](*,) :lol:


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## Hunter Allred

Bob Scott said:


> This is what I need with my GSD #2. He can't stay still or quiet to save his own life without VERY calm praise. Any enthusiasm from me in either praise or physical contact and he's over the top. I can't even pet this dog unless I calmly put him on a sit and calmly pet him while calmly talking to him. When I stop he's off again. He's also way to soft to my voice corrections. I've never in my life had a dog with these combinations. FOR ME a handler soft dog is the weak spot in in my training. That's even with all the marker training. A simple, calm "yes" or click and the Tasmanian goof ball returns. He's gone so far as to break his tail (dead tail) on the BBQ pit during his spaz attacks and gave it absolutely no notice.
> This kills me because his desire to learn is also off the charts. I can't move without this dog following me around, begging to do something. Ultra compliant.....just nucking futs! :](*,) :lol:


lol interesting, my leaky dog is very very handler hard... for the reason you described above its necessary that I do start my praise very soft and calm and build... for example if we are heeling and its perfect, I start off with a very calm and low "goood" and progressively but very smoothly increase the pitch, tone, intensity, and volume of the "good"s until she either loses it or I mark it b/c she held position even when I was making her about to explode with praise. We still have days where she's throwing behaviors at me so fast trying to figure out how to win that even when it was right I can't mark it fast enough... she will go from a heel to front to heel to down to sit to front in the span of like, one second lol. Feels like playing "whack a mole" trying to mark the actual behavior I wanted lol.


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## Bob Scott

" Feels like playing "whack a mole" trying to mark the actual behavior I wanted lol." 

*BINGO! *
I'm going to steal that PERFECT description from you. :lol: :lol: :wink:


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## Hunter Allred

Connie Sutherland said:


> What about this: Is it plausible that some dogs might use these leaks I was talking about (maybe whining, yipping, etc.) as a sort of focusing mechanism?
> 
> That is, could it be that sometimes, with some dogs, such little outlets might contribute to rather than take away from clearheadedness?
> 
> 
> When I was re-reading the thread, this post (# 17) made me look at it again:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (Yes, I realize I'm a slow thinker on this and it has been over 76 days and that it's "very likely that it does not need any further discussion and thus bumping it serves no purpose." :lol:
> 
> I am clicking this anyway: "I am aware that this Thread is rather old but I still want to make a reply.")


Not directly... I would guess some dogs may appear to focus more b/c of the leaking... which they may be in so much as they are leaking stress and able to think because they have brought themselves to a lower stress level. The better route is to teach the dog to be clear headed and self contained at the higher pressure.

I use the analogy of a pressure cooker. Each cooker (dog) has a different level of pressure (drive stimulation) they can handle before the safety valve (whatever their drive goal was... bite something, etc) blows and lowers the pressure. When you are getting closer to that valve blowing there will be some steam leaking from the pinhole that constantly leaks steam (like my bitch lol...this is the drive leaking behaviors.. whining, fidgeting, etc). If the valve blows (dog breaks and does what they so badly wanted to do to satisfy that drive) the pressure is all lost and you must close the valve & rebuild the pressure. To keep the valve from blowing, you must either turn down the burner, allow the pinhole to leak enough steam to not activate the valve, cover that pinhole to stop the leaking, or some combination of the above. You can also just weld that valve shut, but this is dangerous and the pressure will find another way to release (and this is what I believe you see when a dog does weird things like constant yawning, urinating, disengaging, etc... substitute behaviors because you blocked the normal release mechanisms). Whoever can keep his/her pressure cooker closest to the safety valve threshold without exceeding it will always cook their food faster/etc. With dogs, I see this as training more effectively. Using a choker is like covering the pinhole. The method I use is to have high stimulus up to the leaking point, "turn off the burner" by having the decoy go neutral or out of site, asking for a behavior, and then "cover the pinhole" by correcting it with the choke so that we do not lose pressure but I can get the compliance without the leaking so I've got something good to reward. When you "open the lid" to reward the dog at this higher state of pressure without the leaking, just like if you opened a pressurized pressure cooker, the reward is much more exciting to the dog (so I think). If you sit there and ask for the leaking to stop or wait it out, its like waiting for that pressure to stop leaking from the pinhole... it will get there but you didn't teach anything while they were at that high pressure state.

Does that all make sense?


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## Matt Vandart

That is a very good description, nearly as good as the whack a mole one.


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## Connie Sutherland

_Each cooker (dog) has a different level of pressure (drive stimulation) they can handle before the safety valve (whatever their drive goal was... bite something, etc) blows and lowers the pressure. When you are getting closer to that valve blowing there will be some steam leaking from the pinhole that constantly leaks steam (like my bitch lol...this is the drive leaking behaviors.. whining, fidgeting, etc). If the valve blows (dog breaks and does what they so badly wanted to do to satisfy that drive) the pressure is all lost and you must close the valve & rebuild the pressure. To keep the valve from blowing, you must either turn down the burner, allow the pinhole to leak enough steam to not activate the valve ... _


Yeah, OK, I see this. 

I feel like I'm seeing this mature dog (6) who self-steams just a little (a high whine for a few seconds) and then seems to be collected and focused and clear-headed. 

I understand what you are saying with _"it will get there but you didn't teach anything while they were at that high pressure state."_


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## Hunter Allred

Connie Sutherland said:


> _Each cooker (dog) has a different level of pressure (drive stimulation) they can handle before the safety valve (whatever their drive goal was... bite something, etc) blows and lowers the pressure. When you are getting closer to that valve blowing there will be some steam leaking from the pinhole that constantly leaks steam (like my bitch lol...this is the drive leaking behaviors.. whining, fidgeting, etc). If the valve blows (dog breaks and does what they so badly wanted to do to satisfy that drive) the pressure is all lost and you must close the valve & rebuild the pressure. To keep the valve from blowing, you must either turn down the burner, allow the pinhole to leak enough steam to not activate the valve ... _
> 
> 
> Yeah, OK, I see this.
> 
> I feel like I'm seeing this mature dog (6) who self-steams just a little (a high whine for a few seconds) and then seems to be collected and focused and clear-headed.
> 
> I understand what you are saying with _"it will get there but you didn't teach anything while they were at that high pressure state."_


I'd guess if the trainer didn't actively train this, then that dog has learned on its own through trial and error to contain itself and the initial whining was just a bit of a leak before the dog plugged its own pinhole. Or its just not all that leaky of a dog to begin with. Could be many things. The dogs that scream rather than bark, and are just completely insane are the super high drive dogs with lower thresholds and "bigger pinholes". The reason these dogs tend to settle after being on the field for a bit is because the pressure doesn't build as fast once the drive goal has been satisfied a few times.. Don't have a good analogy related to the steam pot for that lol... 

Its also partly a question of how much do you want to allow and thats a personal choice.


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## Connie Sutherland

Hunter Allred said:


> ... that dog has learned on its own through trial and error to contain itself and the initial whining was just a bit of a leak before the dog plugged its own pinhole.


This is what I think.

(Of course, this is not the dog in the O.P. This dog, compared to the O.P. dog, who is way younger, made me stop and think about what seem to be two very different things. The O.P. dog becomes hectic, and this dog seems to my eyes to become collected.)


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## Hunter Allred

Connie Sutherland said:


> This is what I think.
> 
> (Of course, this is not the dog in the O.P. This dog, compared to the O.P. dog, who is way younger, made me stop and think about what seem to be two very different things. The O.P. dog becomes hectic, and this dog seems to my eyes to become collected.)


It both cases the behavior lowers the stress, however in the latter case the dog would seem to understand it does not get you to the bigger stress relief.


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## Geoff Empey

Connie Sutherland said:


> What about this: Is it plausible that some dogs might use these leaks I was talking about (maybe whining, yipping, etc.) as a sort of focusing mechanism?
> 
> That is, could it be that sometimes, with some dogs, such little outlets might contribute to rather than take away from clearheadedness?


With my dogs it is about pushing to get what they want. The "whining yipping" to me is just a form of displacement behaviour to either help them cap themselves or to show their displeasure in not getting what they want. In guards they will push and prod the decoy, almost to dare him to escape. Again it is about patience or the lack of it. Them barking, making prey sounds .. whatever they do, to me is annoying. But as long as they are not taking dirty shots at the decoy it's a battle that I don't really need to fight. 

This is where secondary reinforcement is a good thing in a training sense. Talk to your dog, go and give it a pet tell it it is doing the right thing. To many will correct a dog when it is doing things wrong but rarely give their dogs any praise when they are right. They have to be timed correctly just like a correction would be for maximum effect. 

Again it goes back to your foundation and the bond that you've built with the dog in the beginning. It's all around OB and that everything good comes from the handler, even just starting off just playing with the ball it's all related if you want it to be as a handler.


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## Hunter Allred

Geoff Empey said:


> With my dogs it is about pushing to get what they want. The "whining yipping" to me is just a form of displacement behaviour to either help them cap themselves or to show their displeasure in not getting what they want. In guards they will push and prod the decoy, almost to dare him to escape. Again it is about patience or the lack of it. Them barking, making prey sounds .. whatever they do, to me is annoying. But as long as they are not taking dirty shots at the decoy it's a battle that I don't really need to fight.
> 
> This is where secondary reinforcement is a good thing in a training sense. Talk to your dog, go and give it a pet tell it it is doing the right thing. To many will correct a dog when it is doing things wrong but rarely give their dogs any praise when they are right. They have to be timed correctly just like a correction would be for maximum effect.
> 
> Again it goes back to your foundation and the bond that you've built with the dog in the beginning. It's all around OB and that everything good comes from the handler, even just starting off just playing with the ball it's all related if you want it to be as a handler.


I agree... Having just watched the regionals Saturday i can tell you the dogs show when "everything bad comes from the handler" more frequently... Too many people fail to praise earnestly, fail to praise consistently, and fail to have well timed praise... Exact same issues people typically have with corrections just the other side of the positive/negative stimuli spectrum


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## Connie Sutherland

Geoff Empey said:


> With my dogs it is about pushing to get what they want. The "whining yipping" to me is just a form of displacement behaviour to either help them cap themselves or to show their displeasure in not getting what they want. In guards they will push and prod the decoy, almost to dare him to escape. Again it is about patience or the lack of it. Them barking, making prey sounds .. whatever they do, to me is annoying. But as long as they are not taking dirty shots at the decoy it's a battle that I don't really need to fight.
> 
> This is where secondary reinforcement is a good thing in a training sense. Talk to your dog, go and give it a pet tell it it is doing the right thing. To many will correct a dog when it is doing things wrong but rarely give their dogs any praise when they are right. They have to be timed correctly just like a correction would be for maximum effect.
> 
> Again it goes back to your foundation and the bond that you've built with the dog in the beginning. It's all around OB and that everything good comes from the handler, even just starting off just playing with the ball it's all related if you want it to be as a handler.


I'm hearing that when the dog does this whine (it's short, like maybe 5 seconds) and then stops, which he does, that is when the handler reinforces. 

This makes total sense to me because this dog already stops on his own after this brief release.


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## Keith Jenkins

My God folks...does everyone realize this has been a very constructive thread and nobody has got butt-hurt about anything!...=D>=D>


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## Connie Sutherland

Keith Jenkins said:


> My God folks...does everyone realize this has been a very constructive thread and nobody has got butt-hurt about anything!...


OOPS! Sorry! I guess we forgot where we were. :lol:


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## Connie Sutherland

Keith Jenkins said:


> My God folks...does everyone realize this has been a very constructive thread and nobody has got butt-hurt about anything!...=D>=D>


This was so constructive to me that I actually had to reopen it when I saw such a different use of "leaking" from the older dog (as opposed to the dog in the O.P.). 

A few months ago I knew almost nothing about drive capping. Just the term.


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## Kevin Cyr

Connie Sutherland said:


> This was so constructive to me that I actually had to reopen it when I saw such a different use of "leaking" from the older dog (as opposed to the dog in the O.P.).
> 
> A few months ago I knew almost nothing about drive capping. Just the term.


 
So is leaking disbodience? Is it just before the dog is capped? If a dog who can cap his drive consistently in his work and then starts leaking, what and how do you attempt to fix the issue?


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Kevin Cyr said:


> So is leaking disbodience? Is it just before the dog is capped? If a dog who can cap his drive consistently in his work and then starts leaking, what and how do you attempt to fix the issue?


I work a dog now that barks in protest. You command her to do something and she barks. She does it but she barks. Trialed her last fall and the judge considered it "out of control." I would see it occasionally in training but noticed in a trial, it was constant. Its definitely a capping/leaking issue. The trouble is that it occurs with her performing the command physically. Her daughter that I raised from a puppy is the same way. I clicker trained the platz--no compulsion-free shaped and she barks. At times I know the bark is in response to pressure they feel from me and that can be that I give a command to perform something in relation to what they are doing [livestock] and they want to do something else. Commands are generally about drive control and capping.


T


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## Geoff Empey

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> I work a dog now that barks in protest. You command her to do something and she barks. She does it but she barks. Trialed her last fall and the judge considered it "out of control." I would see it occasionally in training but noticed in a trial, it was constant. Its definitely a capping/leaking issue. The trouble is that it occurs with her performing the command physically. Her daughter that I raised from a puppy is the same way. I clicker trained the platz--no compulsion-free shaped and she barks. At times I know the bark is in response to pressure they feel from me and that can be that I give a command to perform something in relation to what they are doing [livestock] and they want to do something else. Commands are generally about drive control and capping.


Do you have a bark command? To me it is a simple fix really teach the dog a 'silence' or 'quiet' command. My young male he will bark and carry on in the crate. He knows when the voice on the GPS says we are within 500m of the training field he goes ape shit. As he just wants to work and the bark shows his enthusiasm to do just that. Either that or it is because I am playing heavy metal on the stereo, LOL! 



Kevin Cyr said:


> So is leaking disbodience? Is it just before the dog is capped? If a dog who can cap his drive consistently in his work and then starts leaking, what and how do you attempt to fix the issue?


Me it is always about picking your battles and going back to the basics. It's not as complicated as every one thinks it is. Some basic rules from the get go and then move to what the dog needs.


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## Dave Colborn

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Trialed her last fall and the judge considered it "out of control."
> 
> T


 
Focus on this and the fact that you didn't pass (I assume) and forget all you "know". Stop with the capping and leaking talk and figure out how to stop the barking, it's an undesireable behavior. 

Capping and leaking in your terms would appear no more relevant than how "tough" someones dog is that doesn't out. It's just bad training no matter what words you put to it. Sort it out.


You have two choices. reward or correction.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Dave Colborn said:


> Focus on this and the fact that you didn't pass (I assume) and forget all you "know". Stop with the capping and leaking talk and figure out how to stop the barking, it's an undesireable behavior.
> 
> Capping and leaking in your terms would appear no more relevant than how "tough" someones dog is that doesn't out. It's just bad training no matter what words you put to it. Sort it out.
> 
> 
> You have two choices. reward or correction.


Actually under 3 prior judges I did pass and the day before 1st place. Passing really isn't the issue. Forget all I know???? I know my choices. Since I'm dealing with a frame of mind and third variable, I have to be careful about the information I give the dog. Not so black and white. This is currently a work in progress. This seemed to be one of those "train of thought" threads. Its not a probem in training I can't solve. However, that said, I generally like reading about Geoff's training in ringsport because I can draw parallels as I think about the dogs I'm working with. Kevin posed an interesting question that I thought of when I decided to address it. Thinking about it, I've done more in the way of training desired behaviors than dealing with the bark. 

T


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## Matt Vandart

Tilly sometimes gets into 'bark mode' I think it possibly came from one time when she happened to bark just before I rewarded her for something else and the timing was perfect to set it in stone as it were.
It bugs the shit out of me in one way and in another I couldn't care less.
My dogs have always been silent workers so this is why it's more of an annoyance than a problem, catching bunnies with a barking dog is no good at all.
It only really manifests when I have built her up into a crazy drive state, which is also when she vibrates, however she doesn't bark when she is vibrating, she does one or the other. Vibrates when I am consciously capping her and barking when she is doing a stationary position and wants to 'get on with it'


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## Brian Anderson

the visual of a dogs drive leaking out his nose is going to stick with me the rest of the day hahaha


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