# Mal tires fast...



## Ted Efthymiadis (Apr 3, 2009)

I have a 3 year old Malinois, I do bitework with him, some tracking, narc detection, but I mostly use him as a demo dog.

I work him several times a day, my problem is this: He tires pretty fast. After 10 min of bitework, he starts to get exhausted, even if he has the chance to drink water. 

I have tried to extend the sessions a little longer, but he starts to get sloppy instead of working threw it.

He's got good ball and food drive. 

Summer is coming up, so I need to demo him everyday. Any ideas?

thanks


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## Sue DiCero (Sep 2, 2006)

Thyroid panel


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## andreas broqvist (Jun 2, 2009)

Sheck his tummy. If hes red ore Flakey/black go to a wet and take a thyroid test. I had a dog that had this problem, she got tyred realy fast. Sleep aloot and she also gaind weight, Got bloted.

It starts of like you deskribes and it usely shows up around 3 years old.


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## Ted Efthymiadis (Apr 3, 2009)

andreas broqvist said:


> Sheck his tummy. If hes red ore Flakey/black go to a wet and take a thyroid test. I had a dog that had this problem, she got tyred realy fast. Sleep aloot and she also gaind weight, Got bloted.
> 
> It starts of like you deskribes and it usely shows up around 3 years old.



He's a normal, healthy, active Malinois. He doesn't ever sleep, or have issues gaining or loosing weight.
The only thing not normal about him is his lack of wanting to work hard when he is drained of energy.


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## Sue DiCero (Sep 2, 2006)

the weight issue might not show up.

The lack of normal energy will.

Can be even a slight below normal and it can impact the work.


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## Ron Davidson (Mar 5, 2009)

What are you feeding him?


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## Jackie Mulligan (Mar 15, 2009)

What kind of exercise does he get other than ball play and bitework? Any long walks/runs to increase endurance?


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Ron Davidson said:


> What are you feeding him?


Was thinking the same thing. I had a discussion with Jeff about this and what he said makes some sense to me....IF you are feeding raw.....


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

How many times a day is "several". I'd be curious about the thyroid panel and food also, but I also wonder if he is getting enough time between sessions to really recover? He may seem like he has, but if he keeps getting tired faster each time, then I would question if he really has. It's like someone practicing sprints, go out and do short sprints until you are tired. Wait an hour, and go do it again. Then an hour, do it again. The first few times you will bounce back fast, but after a few more reps you will start to see a decrease in your times, or the number of sprints you can do before you are tired and want to stop. Keep doing this day after day and you will see a decrease in your performance unless you are in exceptional shape.

I think the following are normal, if he's exhausted like you say:


> I have tried to extend the sessions a little longer, but he starts to get sloppy instead of working threw it.


Every dog I've owned has gotten sloppy when they are exhausted. They will still work, but they aren't nearly as "clean", physically or mentally.



> The only thing not normal about him is his lack of wanting to work hard when he is drained of energy.


If he's that tired, I'd call this having a brain  

Has he ever heat stroked that you know of? Once a dog heat strokes they will start to get tired faster, there body is less able to regulate heat and they overheat easier. It happened to a friends dog during training many years ago, and he was never the same afterwards, his stamina decreased. 

When he's tired/sloppy, how red is the inside of his ears?


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Interesting - Carol, I feed Royal Canine for GSDs - don't need to use much to keep them in form, so doesn't work out more expensive than a cheaper food.

I've noticed with our younger dog for a while now that his stamina is lacking compared with the other who is much heavier built (bonewise).

The helper said last Monday that he had little stamina but as we had two rounds of biting, I didn't give him water in between and it was warm. 

Must have him checked out for thyroid problem if it continues. However, the best exercise for bitework is bitework?

I'm wondering if this is genetic? The older one is very fast in the sprint, just like my Fila was but ambles through the woods. The younger one is always on the go whatever gives.


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## Ted Efthymiadis (Apr 3, 2009)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> How many times a day is "several". I'd be curious about the thyroid panel and food also, but I also wonder if he is getting enough time between sessions to really recover? He may seem like he has, but if he keeps getting tired faster each time, then I would question if he really has. It's like someone practicing sprints, go out and do short sprints until you are tired. Wait an hour, and go do it again. Then an hour, do it again. The first few times you will bounce back fast, but after a few more reps you will start to see a decrease in your times, or the number of sprints you can do before you are tired and want to stop. Keep doing this day after day and you will see a decrease in your performance unless you are in exceptional shape.
> 
> I think the following are normal, if he's exhausted like you say:
> 
> ...


He's on Holistic blend, he really loves this stuff. I'll add some raw from time to time as well.

I havn't checked his ears when he's tired, I'll do that today.

I work him twice a day, 10-15 min sessions, then put him away. And he gets one walk, and one run a day. So 4 outings a day.

One thing I have noticed, when I have him swimming, he can go forever chasing a ball in the water.

Sunny hot days, he tires much quicker, so I leave things short on hot days.
He's never had heat stroke.

Would a heavier dog (more fat) last longer during work? He's rather slender, ou can see ribs on him.


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Fatter heavier boned dogs seem to tire faster from what I have seen summer searching. I would stick with lighter and ribby personally. Ever notice the difference between you and a big boy walking up a flight of stairs?:wink:

I have for sure heard of some Mals having issues with the heat. Everything from dropping dead after a 20 min track, and working themselves into heat stroke......to more like the kind of thing you are describing. Two seperate issues.

One thing I am not sure if you have considered...but it can happen with my Toller.....some dogs get really bored of doing the same thing over and over. As long as you switch things up and keep them guessing..the performance stays sharp. Then there are some dogs that are happy to do the same thing over and over and over....


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## Doug Zaga (Mar 28, 2010)

Hi all,

I have no experience if this is a training issue. 

If I may add my input regarding the nutritional value of your feed. RC has several ingredients I would not be comfortable feeding my dog; sodium silicoaluminate, wheat gluten meal, dried beet pulp (sugar removed), and powdered cellulose. 

Some of these ingredients are part of the overall nutritional value yet are not easily turned into needed energy by dogs.

If the ingredient is accurately identified there is some information that sodium silicoaluminate is a carcinogen???? There is also controversy on the addition of beet pulp in food. You can google both ingredients and make up your own decision.

Doug


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Doug, thanks for that. I will look into it although both dogs are fed this and one (the heavier one) never shows tiredness in bitework. Both have good drives.


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## Adam Rawlings (Feb 27, 2009)

I have a GSD with mild HD, he will lay down and rest when he's had enough. If it's been a long day with lots of running and bite work he's also a little grumpy and just wants to be left alone. Just a thought.


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## Lynn Cheffins (Jul 11, 2006)

How does he do with endurance stuff when it is cooler? Some dogs need more gradual LSD type stuff to build up than others. Some dogs just are not as heat tolerant as others. I find that dogs "bonk" faster on kibble unless is is real "high-test" stuff.


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## Guest (Apr 9, 2010)

Carol Boche said:


> Was thinking the same thing. I had a discussion with Jeff about this and what he said makes some sense to me....IF you are feeding raw.....


Hi Carol-

So are you saying a dog fed raw will tend to tire faster? Perhaps due to the day to day variation in the raw feed with overall balance being the goal rather than day to day meal to meal consistent balance? Or perhaps due to an improperly balanced diet altogether?


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## Tamara McIntosh (Jul 14, 2009)

Ted Efthymiadis said:


> I have tried to extend the sessions a little longer, but he starts to get sloppy instead of working threw it.


my humble opinion...

You have to build the dog like you would an athlete. You are asking him to perform like a seasoned vet, yet not conditioning him like one. Just because he is a malinois doesn't mean he can go from zero to 60 on a whim.

Start working him into his tired periods. Understand that he will be sloppy. I don't neccessarily mean accept the sloppy behaviour, but know that he will show it. Work him up slowly to longer and longer periods. Rather than "walk" the dog at night, do a series of sprint then rest cycles (and the sprint in all out). Start making your sessions more intense/demanding (longer bite times, more/longer recalls between bites, faster out/guard sequences, etc). 

The dog has to learn to still think and function when tired, or else you are left with a dog that will only function when fresh and alert. To teach them to still think/learn/function when tired, you have to show them how to do so. Push the dog a tiny bit farther every session. Do obedience after a sprint session (short session) to teach the dogs mind to focus even when tired, and make the reward at the end of the session a HIGH value reward. 

Also understand that mental stress can be just as tiring for the dog as physcial stress. If you are working on a problem that the dog really has the think thru, the dog needs a suitable reward or stress relief at the end, but also think about how much mental and physical stress you are putting on the dog combined. If there is a ton of mental stress, maybe back off the physical stress... if there is a ton of physical stress lay off the mental stressors. I do routinely combine both, however the duration is much shorter for those sessions.

I am not sure if this helps or is even on the mark you were looking for.. but there it is.

Tamara McIntosh


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Vin Chiu said:


> Hi Carol-
> 
> So are you saying a dog fed raw will tend to tire faster? Perhaps due to the day to day variation in the raw feed with overall balance being the goal rather than day to day meal to meal consistent balance? Or perhaps due to an improperly balanced diet altogether?


Nope, not saying that at ALL.....I just know that when Jesea is working really hard she eats upwards of 5 to 6lbs a day and still is thin.....high metabolism (wish I had it) AND if I feed less she tires more easily. 

Has nothing to do with improper balance (which I don't think you can have when you have everything in their diet that they need)....just saying that some dogs may need more to keep energy levels up.....


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## Jack Roberts (Sep 5, 2008)

One note about walking and exercising the dog is to let the dog roam free on his own while out on walks. You go for a walk for 45 minutes and the dog will be running and moving 45 minutes while you are walking. You get the benefit of clearing your own head and the dog gets some great exercise.

I take my dog out in the woods and let him run ahead of me to sniff and be a dog for exercise and mental rest. The dog will climb hills and will get a great workout in the process because they are running and sprinting around. I think it also gives the dog some time to relax and be out in nature. 

Often times, we forget that dogs are animals and need to act like a dog. I will sometimes play frisbee with my dog to give him some wind sprints but find that the long walks are better for endurance. 



You do not have to do this everyday but 2 - 3 times a week is good enough.


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## Ted Efthymiadis (Apr 3, 2009)

I don't think it's a medical issue, it could be, but they chances seem small.

He's not good in the heat, never has been. 

I'll take him to the lake before and after demos, that should make a big difference. 

thanks.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Ted, If it's a conditioning problem...More conditioning will solve it. The dog will get faster and more endurance if his body is overloaded. Also, make sure the conditioning is condusive to the activity....Swimming does not make a dog a better runner.

My theory on this is. Tired is tired. There is no making a dog know that he has to be sharp when he is exhausted. The body itself can not sustain work anymore, the mind suffers, the body does to. This is not a discpline problem.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I wouldn't blow off the health issue with thyroid, pretty quick check. The other thing is it is just now getting warm, and maybe he hasn't adjusted from winter yet. Do you train like that everyday ??


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Absolutely start with a thorough physical exam and bloodwork (including a thyroid panel). You want to rule out physical injury or other degenerative condition first, along with looking at some hormones. 

Ruling out something medical, having the dog perform with cold muscles without a proper warm up, especially something explosive like protection work, weight pull, or agility, is just asking for injury. I saw a corgi pull a muscle on a herding instinct test a few weeks ago because it was not warmed up and it was very muddy. Good combo for injury and the dog is pretty old (11 years old) so will have a longer recovery. Could have been prevented possibly. Almost all of us (myself included [-X) pull a dog out of the crate and expect it to work cold when we would never go run hills, do gymnastics, lift weights, or martial arts without properly stretching and warming up first ourselves. Check out the warm up routine I suggested on the other thread. 

http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f25/recovery-14986/#post184231

Also keep a training log and keep note of how long it took him to show signs of fatigue and what you were working on so you can look for patterns. When doing protection, does he know how to breath out of his nose when holding something in his mouth? My own dog has not totally figured this out yet and snorts when doing water retrieves (you can hear him do a snorting chuffing sound as he brings a bumper back in) or sometimes while doing bite work. This fatigues them early too. Bring the dog up for conditioning SLOWLY. Adequate rest is also important.


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## Guest (Apr 9, 2010)

Carol Boche said:


> Nope, not saying that at ALL.....I just know that when Jesea is working really hard she eats upwards of 5 to 6lbs a day and still is thin.....high metabolism (wish I had it) AND if I feed less she tires more easily.
> 
> Has nothing to do with improper balance (which I don't think you can have when you have everything in their diet that they need)....just saying that some dogs may need more to keep energy levels up.....



Ah I see. Thanks for clarifying.

re: Thyroid Testing
You are probably going to want to get a full thyroid panel done which is something that is not included in the T4 analysis that your vet will probably request. My suggestion would be to have your vet send blood samples to Jean Dodds DVM for a full Thyroid 5 analysis which often catches anomalies that are not indicated in your usual T4 panel. Spend a few extra bucks for the peace of mind that a full analysis was done and all clear means all clear, not maybe all clear. JMO


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Adam Rawlings said:


> I have a GSD with mild HD, he will lay down and rest when he's had enough. If it's been a long day with lots of running and bite work he's also a little grumpy and just wants to be left alone. Just a thought.


Thyroid and general conditioning issues ruled out that would be my next thought. Although, something Ted said made me wonder if its more about the type of work he's doing that's the source of the problem and not about much else. As in he's getting overstimulated in the work and burns out very quickly as a result.


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## Mo Earle (Mar 1, 2008)

not sure where you live if you have to deal with heartworm issues like we do in the south, but have you checked him for Heart worms....or worms in general- if he has Heart worm when it is really bad the dog will have a cough, but early on can be without those symptoms and it is still going to get in the way of the pumping of blood from the heart chambers....., if intestinal worms, like hooks, could be anemic, so dog is not carrying enough oxygen in his system causing him to tire quickly.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Jennifer said
"I have for sure heard of some Mals having issues with the heat. Everything from dropping dead after a 20 min track, and working themselves into heat stroke......to more like the kind of thing you are describing. Two seperate issues."


I have no idea if it's bs or not but I've heard the RCMP has stopped using Mals because of this. Is that connected to what you heard?
So many of them look like they are about to self destruct. 
NOT a shot at Mals, just what I've "heard" and seen myself.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Bob Scott said:


> I have no idea if it's bs or not but I've heard the RCMP has stopped using Mals because of this. Is that connected to what you heard?
> So many of them look like they are about to self destruct.
> NOT a shot at Mals, just what I've "heard" and seen myself.


Not true, and it would take more than one or two instances to establish a pattern that would be a reliable reference.


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

I am not privy to all the ins and outs of the RCMP breeding program and why decisions are made, but I have heard heat related issues mentioned in relation to some Mals that they had. That may or may not have had bearing on their decisions to stick with GSD's. I can't comment on their behalf.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

That makes sense. I've just heard this "rumor" more then once.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I would say that some do have a lot of problems with the heat. Buko certainly does, Soda PoP doesn't at all. Sometimes I think it the difference in the intensity in which the dog works. I wouldn't rule out a medical problem, as ten minutes in Canada at this time of the year shouldn't be a heat thing. How hot is it ?? I know that in the summer here in SA, ten minutes of bitework at 106 degrees can be too much.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I would say that some do have a lot of problems with the heat. Buko certainly does, Soda PoP doesn't at all. Sometimes I think it the difference in the intensity in which the dog works. I wouldn't rule out a medical problem, as ten minutes in Canada at this time of the year shouldn't be a heat thing. How hot is it ?? I know that in the summer here in SA, ten minutes of bitework at 106 degrees can be too much.


Anywhere central to west, average temp is about 20-25 celcius. Where Ted is average highs are more and the humidity is fukin nuts, anything above 50 is unbearable to me.

I don't know how people can live with 80's to 90's and humidity above 70 without having a beer drip and your feet in a lake.

Maybe it depends on what happens in that ten minutes ? How long is the bitework portion of a Ring exercise ?


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

The exercises don't last that long. However, Buko does really stupid shit like forget to breathe. I don't make him do it all at once in the summer. I do some OB then maybe a jump, then a bite exercise, then change of positions, then maybe defense of handler, and so on. In Mondio the dog is biting for ten seconds. In training the dog is biting for more or less. I do not have to worry about the dog not biting, so when it is miserable, I might have him bite for just a couple of seconds towards the end.

Ted is doing a demo, so I have no idea what that means as far as how long the dog is biting.

what is 25 celsius in degrees ?


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

It's about 70 degrees give or take a couple. Since we went to metric I'm never really sure.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I am going to guess it is an intensity thing. Buko is getting better about relaxing and breathing as he gets older. I have seen him not appear to breathe at all for 20 30 seconds, and then he would breathe really shallow. After that, he gets all ragged and is obviously in oxygen debt.

70 doesn't seem like much, but your winters are all sub zero or some shit right ??


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Jeff, this may be an elementary question, but does he actually realize he can breath through his nose during bite work? Or does he just "forget" to? Like if you tossed a large bumper in the water for him to retrieve, can he swim back in it without trying to breath around the bumper through his mouth?


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

He breathes through his mouth.


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## Tammy St. Louis (Feb 17, 2010)

I was thinking that made sence to me that maybe the dog is not breathing properly when he does bite work 
I know my am staffs tongue used to turn purple sometimes while doing flyball , he was so crazy about it he wouldnt breath for most of the run , I had to stop and give him time to get his breath..


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## Ted Efthymiadis (Apr 3, 2009)

I think I'm expecting a lot of him. 
I work him hard, and don't give him enough time off when he's not working.

I do a lot of stuff like this, but I make him jump a lot. It is pretty intense work, because it's not only physical, and mental as well. The dog has to figure out where I am sending him and such. Also , every demo is in a different place. 

Thanks for your input, I'll put him away for a day or two, and get a panel done soon just in-case.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ImDL2NGGSk
stuff like that.


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## Ted Efthymiadis (Apr 3, 2009)

I gave him a day off, and tried again today.
He wasn't responding the way I had hoped, so I went up on the dial..... a lot. 

When the positive motivator is not enough, go up on the negative, then increase the positive when they give you what you want. 

I worked his ass threw it, I'v never seen him go super high on the dial, but today I needed more from him, so I went up on the dial and almost maxed out my collar. 

Dang it was nice. 
BB don't give me that crap, work you Malinois, and he did. Wonderfully. 

He must have learned to shut off when he wanted to, and for the most part that was my issue, letting him shut down and then putting him away. 

Thanks for the advice


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

That is really interesting Ted. I was wondering if he was bored of doing the same type of demo a couple times a day, or was stressed about making the wrong decisions with the e-collar on so was getting sloppy.

Now that you have corrected the dog into complience and the precision you want to see in your demo dog...couple of questions...

Are you thinking that he was just giving you the "I don't wanna" before? Why do you think that was? Do you think it is bordom or stress related..or something else?

Secondly...would you consider getting another demo dog that would perform more at the level you would like..several times a day...that did not need so much pressure to do so? Like I said...it just seems to me that there are some dogs that actaully WANT to do the same crap over and over again...


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

you were given some excellant suggestions relative the problem you were having. In my opinion, you chose the worst possible solution. 

DFrost


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## Ted Efthymiadis (Apr 3, 2009)

David Frost said:


> you were given some excellant suggestions relative the problem you were having. In my opinion, you chose the worst possible solution.
> 
> DFrost


Interesting. Absolutely I did get some good advice.
I chose to try my own method, rather than spending several hundred dollars on doing a panel... and I got exactly what I wanted out of my dog, and he's happy as a clam.

How exactly was that the worst possible solution ?


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Ted Efthymiadis said:


> Interesting. Absolutely I did get some good advice.
> I chose to try my own method, rather than spending several hundred dollars on doing a panel... and I got exactly what I wanted out of my dog, and he's happy as a clam.
> 
> How exactly was that the worst possible solution ?


 
Not that I disagree with what you did, everyone has there own thinking....however, could of failed and went south on you and also, do you really know what if anything is wrong?? It worked today, but what about tomorrow? What if it comes back, what will you do then? He could of died with more pressure or got serioulsy hurt... I think thats where David is coming from.....


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## Ted Efthymiadis (Apr 3, 2009)

Jennifer Coulter said:


> That is really interesting Ted. I was wondering if he was bored of doing the same type of demo a couple times a day, or was stressed about making the wrong decisions with the e-collar on so was getting sloppy.
> 
> Now that you have corrected the dog into complience and the precision you want to see in your demo dog...couple of questions...
> 
> ...


1: I think much of it was his attitude towards doing the work, after a while, when he started to heat up, he would look for a place to rest. Because I have seen many many Malinois work much longer, and harder in these conditions without overheating, I decided to push him along using the collar. from a younger age I should have taken him threw it, but it was my training error, in assuming he should be put away to rest when he looked tired.

2: Would I consider getting another dog? I'v never quit of a dog yet, and I don't intend to over something like this. He's got good prey drive, and high food drive, he's amazing with people, kids, dogs, cats....
He can do the work... am I missing something?
If I was training a narc dog, who had zero prey drive, I would ditch the dog in a heartbeat. 
BB has good drives, and is an epic dog who's parents are awesome workers, it was my handling issue. 

I know I am going to get a lot of crap for this, because most people only see remote collars as punishment.... When used to promote drive peaking, they can do amazing things.


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## Ted Efthymiadis (Apr 3, 2009)

Jody Butler said:


> He could of died with more pressure or got serioulsy hurt... I think thats where David is coming from.....



What? Are you serious?
Never in my life did I think I would hear someone assume a dog could die from working a street corner for a half hour.... being watered several times.


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## Jack Roberts (Sep 5, 2008)

Hi Ted,

One of the problems that I see with taking the route that you took was that you have nothing left to drive the dog into compulsion.

If you turn up the collar, the dog will get use to the level of stimulation and the collar will cease to give you the same results. 

It sounds like the dog is bored with doing the same thing.

I was serious about taking the dog out and letting him run around on his own and be a dog. Just make sure you do it in a safe location. I do not agree with crating a dog to get them to work. Dogs have stress hormones and this is counterproductive. 

In the end, it is your dog and you have the right to work him as you please. If you start out throwing all that you have at the dog, what are you going to do next time when he stops working as well?


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## Ted Efthymiadis (Apr 3, 2009)

Jack Roberts said:


> Hi Ted,
> 
> One of the problems that I see with taking the route that you took was that you have nothing left to drive the dog into compulsion.
> 
> ...





Hey Jack, awesome points. He could be shit tomorrow, but within hours he was in high drive again with and without the collar, and he worked for about 25 minutes without a collar. 

Could it be an issue down the road, that is possible. But I won't know until I continue to work him, and see how things turn out. 

He's more than welcome to be a normal dog, he's still a pet, I don't even crate him. He gets to run in the woods every day with my other dog, and any dogs I have doing board and trains. He's no tennis racket dog haha. 

My happy working dogs: http://www.facebook.com/v/10150162730265072


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## Jack Roberts (Sep 5, 2008)

Ted,

Can you bring another dog to demo for a while and give this dog a week off? It might be better to have 2 demo dogs and to switch them out. 

What is a "tennis racket dog" ?


I hope my points did not come across wrong. I was not being judgmental.



I am glad to hear that you allow your dogs to be dogs. 


I would be curious to see how things progress. I would think that the dog will get into drive for about a week before possibly slipping back.


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## Ted Efthymiadis (Apr 3, 2009)

Jack Roberts said:


> Ted,
> 
> Can you bring another dog to demo for a while and give this dog a week off? It might be better to have 2 demo dogs and to switch them out.
> 
> ...


Well isn't that why we are all here ? to learn? I read a lot of comments telling me to push the dog threw it, so I did. Dog training is a process, an everyday learning process, I don't have all the answers. But I do learn from my mistakes. 

I have another demo dog I usually bring out, but I don't see myself giving any of my dogs a week off hahaha. I don't take a week off work when I get tired, I take a nap and keep on going. They will continue to work, and be pets. However I will be swimming them a lot more over the next few weeks, to cool them down, and I will be looking for areas to demo with tree cover for shade. 

I'll let you know how things work out over time.


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Ted Efthymiadis said:


> 1: I think much of it was his attitude towards doing the work, after a while, when he started to heat up, he would look for a place to rest. Because I have seen many many Malinois work much longer, and harder in these conditions without overheating, I decided to push him along using the collar. from a younger age I should have taken him threw it, but it was my training error, in assuming he should be put away to rest when he looked tired.
> 
> 2: Would I consider getting another dog? I'v never quit of a dog yet, and I don't intend to over something like this. He's got good prey drive, and high food drive, he's amazing with people, kids, dogs, cats....
> He can do the work... am I missing something?
> ...


Thanks for taking the time to answer with your thoughts.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

" so I went up on the dial and almost maxed out my collar"


:-k I don't know a lot of people that would view that as "promoting drive peaking."


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Okay, well how about this...how does he perform in relatively cold temperatures like you should be used to coming off of in Nova Scotia? Mals will often work themselves to their detriment. Pushing a dog who is or could be heat stressed by introducing a higher level of positive punishment is oh...I don't know...stupid? If your dog ended up dropping dead because you were too busy being trigger happy with the e-collar instead of addressing potential underlying concerns, that's exactly how training tools like that get banned. ](*,) Regardless of whether this is a training issue or a health issue, this quote always bears repeating in cases like this...



> Let the trainer examine himself when the dog makes a mistake, or does not understand the exercise, or fails in obedience, and let him ask "Where am I at fault?"--von Stephanitz


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Ted Efthymiadis said:


> 1: I think much of it was his attitude towards doing the work, after a while, when he started to heat up, he would look for a place to rest.


Ted, training aside let me give you a view point from an outsider who is just addressing the point stated above. At 8 months I took my 85 lb puppy out over 22 miles in 3 days - in the mountains. Last summer at just a bit under 3 years and around 105 lbs I took her on a mountain day trip that was 15 miles in about 75-80 degree temps. We weren't hiking but rather did this on a 4 wheeler. On that last trip she also was puking and had the shits from getting into a food bag and helping herself a few hours earlier. Not at any time while doing this work did she attempt to find a place to lay down. Not even when we stopped periodically to check the GPS. I totally get the fact that we're talking about entirely different types of work but you gotta admit that what you said about the dog does give some, reason to pause at the solution.

I'm not interested in what you are doing for training necessarily, but what does interest me is the fact that something about this dog looking for a place to lay down doesn't seem to fit the norms surrounding the Mals owned by most people here but those who do have dogs like this admit it's not necessarily a good thing. Being flat in the work is a different issue over a dog that is instead looking for a place to rest.

I don't want to debate anything, that's not why I posted. I just wanted to offer a perspective on something that struck me as being slightly odd.


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## Ted Efthymiadis (Apr 3, 2009)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Okay, well how about this...how does he perform in relatively cold temperatures like you should be used to coming off of in Nova Scotia? Mals will often work themselves to their detriment. Pushing a dog who is or could be heat stressed by introducing a higher level of positive punishment is oh...I don't know...stupid? If your dog ended up dropping dead because you were too busy being trigger happy with the e-collar instead of addressing potential underlying concerns, that's exactly how training tools like that get banned. ](*,) Regardless of whether this is a training issue or a health issue, this quote always bears repeating in cases like this...


Wow, you really don't get it at all. 

I guess all the marathon runners in the world should just stay home if it's a warm day..... with that kind of thinking. 

Do you think I'm an idiot who knows absolutely nothing about dogs? 

If I had listened to the close minded people in my area who think e-collars are abuse devices, I would have never taken my dogs from a 8/10 to a 9.5/10. Having said that, I don't use collars the way the majority of trainers do, and certainly not the mass public. 

I had the best session of my life with him this morning, collar and no collar. So feel free to try and make me look like an idiot, but you won't take away the fact that I was having an issue, I decided to work it out the way I felt best, and it worked. Have a wonderful day, I know I will.


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## Ted Efthymiadis (Apr 3, 2009)

Quote:
Let the trainer examine himself when the dog makes a mistake, or does not understand the exercise, or fails in obedience, and let him ask "Where am I at fault?"--von Stephanitz
-------------------------------------------

I actually love this quote, it's what pushed me to do what I did.
My fault was letting him give up, and not pushing him along. 
Thanks for reminding me,


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Ted Efthymiadis said:


> Wow, you really don't get it at all.
> 
> I guess all the marathon runners in the world should just stay home if it's a warm day..... with that kind of thinking.
> 
> ...


No, you are lacking in understanding regarding the quote. I don't want you to look like an idiot. I just want to make sure your dog doesn't keel over dead because you picked the easy way out. Which then gives plenty of ammo for the animal rights people who'd love to see e-collars banned in the first place. Just imagine the headlines if your dog died in a public place during a demo because you had to force it to comply with a "shock collar." #-o And I use e-collars myself, btw. I'd love to know the magical special way you use e-collars that are so different than everyone else. The SMS Kool-Aid must be delicious.

You were smart by asking what might causing him to tire quickly in the first place. Forcing the dog to comply with a higher level of positive punishment when you haven't figured out the reason for why the dog is tiring quickly is not smart. Dogs can't tell us why there's something wrong. They also cannot tell us if they don't want to work. If a *Malinois*, of all dogs, is looking flat or not wanting to work, there's something wrong with the dog one way or the other. If it's not medical (which you have apparently done nothing to rule out) or he's not yet conditioned, the dog simply may not have the drive. But that's why David, Bob, myself, etc think you need to reconsider what you decided to do.


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## Ted Efthymiadis (Apr 3, 2009)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> No, you are lacking in understanding regarding the quote. I don't want you to look like an idiot. I just want to make sure your dog doesn't keel over dead because you picked the easy way out. Which then gives plenty of ammo for the animal rights people who'd love to see e-collars banned in the first place. Just imagine the headlines if your dog died in a public place during a demo because you had to force it to comply with a "shock collar." #-o And I use e-collars myself, btw. I'd love to know the magical special way you use e-collars that are so different than everyone else. The SMS Kool-Aid must be delicious.
> 
> You were smart by asking what might causing him to tire quickly in the first place. Forcing the dog to comply with a higher level of positive punishment when you haven't figured out the reason for why the dog is tiring quickly is not smart. Dogs can't tell us why there's something wrong. They also cannot tell us if they don't want to work. If a *Malinois*, of all dogs, is looking flat or not wanting to work, there's something wrong with the dog one way or the other. If it's not medical (which you have apparently done nothing to rule out) or he's not yet conditioned, the dog simply may not have the drive. But that's why David, Bob, myself, etc think you need to reconsider what you decided to do.


I'm not with SMS sorry. We blend several types of training, and the collars are just a part of the way we train. I'm not close minded to one form of training, heck I use clickers from time to time. The difference is pretty simple, when the foundation collar work is done, the dog doesn't see the button as a correction, rather a push towards the finish line. When you take a dog from tradition avoidance training, to this form of training, it takes a while for them to re-hab. However, when you get on the button, they don't think "oh crap, what did I do wrong" they think "Mr handler, what would you like" 
That's a massive shift. The rehab alone took me 30 days, three sessions a day to transition from normal collar work, to the form i use now. 

That's why I can go up on the dial and see the dog become more motivated. try doing that with the normal avoidance methods, all you get is a dog who tries to run for cover, or completely shuts down. 

I do absolutely agree that when a dog has really had too much work, it needs to rest and cool down. I just decided that he hadn't had enough, some days when his prey drive is insane, he can go for longer, in the heat, so I know it's possible for him to do it, if he's driven enough. If he's not... sorry pal, do the work, and I'll water you during the process. If I can run in the heat for hours, he can do a 25 minute set on the street, with water breaks. If you disagree with that, then that's your opinion. 

Anyways, he's doing fine, he's happy, and working the way I want him to, end of story. 

peace


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

An extra push? Why is that any different from faster compliance just avoiding the shock? I like to keep things simple. The shock from the collar is positive punishment: something you add to get the subject to not repeat a behavior (i.e.-non-compliance with the cue word). Trying to call e-collars motivational is just not technically correct. The shock is not a reward, it's an aversive, so it makes no sense to make it sound motivational. Like I said, I don't have a problem with e-collars and I train with them myself particularly when my dogs are off leash on the trails in the woods, but I don't get the current trend to make them into something they are not. :-k

As far as your dog goes, it's not his choice for when he wants to train or go to work, so if your dog is dragging in the heat, you need to be cognizant of that and not just reach for the e-collar as if he's being lazy. In the summer, I like very short (2-3 minutes up to no more than 10 or so minutes) intense sessions with decently long breaks in between. I saw this yesterday watching my husband work our female Mal in herding. She was starting to overheat and get overwhelmed (it's really tough mentally on the dogs as well as physically) after about 10 minutes of work. She's got no lack of drive to do the work and she's in excellent shape, but sometimes you just have to know when to say when, put them up for a bit, and try again. Herding, bitework, and agility is also a completely different type of physical and mental exercise than jogging at a steady pace. Can you do wind sprints for 25 minutes straight?


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## Ted Efthymiadis (Apr 3, 2009)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> An extra push? Why is that any different from faster compliance just avoiding the shock? I like to keep things simple. The shock from the collar is positive punishment: something you add to get the subject to not repeat a behavior (i.e.-non-compliance with the cue word). Trying to call e-collars motivational is just not technically correct. The shock is not a reward, it's an aversive, so it makes no sense to make it sound motivational. Like I said, I don't have a problem with e-collars and I train with them myself particularly when my dogs are off leash on the trails in the woods, but I don't get the current trend to make them into something they are not. :-k
> 
> As far as your dog goes, it's not his choice for when he wants to train or go to work, so if your dog is dragging in the heat, you need to be cognizant of that and not just reach for the e-collar as if he's being lazy. In the summer, I like very short (2-3 minutes up to no more than 10 or so minutes) intense sessions with decently long breaks in between. I saw this yesterday watching my husband work our female Mal in herding. She was starting to overheat and get overwhelmed (it's really tough mentally on the dogs as well as physically) after about 10 minutes of work. She's got no lack of drive to do the work and she's in excellent shape, but sometimes you just have to know when to say when, put them up for a bit, and try again. Herding, bitework, and agility is also a completely different type of physical and mental exercise than jogging at a steady pace. Can you do wind sprints for 25 minutes straight?


All of this stuff is all fluff, and excuses the way I see it. I can see that now because until a few days ago, I made those excuses too, and I ended up with a 10 minute Malinois. 
Can he physically do the work I am asking him to do? yes or no?

Yes, he has proven that several times, and in different conditions. So, because he can do the work, and has yet to over heat, and or ... die, he'll continue to work until I decide he's done. 

I'm not going to go into the technical aspects of the collar, because you don't use the collar the way I do, so you will not see it, until you do it. Feel free to PM me with this stuff, it's not why I posted this thread. I posted it for some thoughts and advice, I listened to the people who told me to work him threw it, and it's working exactly the way I had hope.... so have an awesome day, go work your dogs, I'm glad you are happy with a 10 minute session from your Malinois, but I'm not.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IoRIDS3HYJI&feature=related


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Really though, can YOU do wind sprints for 25 minutes? Honestly? Explosive activities like agility, bitework, weight pull, etc. are going to use different muscle types than those for endurance activities like jogging, scootering, and sledding. Perhaps you've heard of fast twitch versus slow twitch muscle fibers? Here's an article that's a little technical but not too technical on the subject in humans (very similar of course in dogs):

http://www.coachr.org/fiber.htm

I don't know if you play or have played team sports or not, but good coaches don't have their players keep on doing conditioning for fast twitch (like sprints) until half the team is passing out and the other half is throwing up just to stoke their own egos. They know when to say when. I also don't mean work your dog for 10 minutes and put him up. I mean work your dog in these short explosive activities, put him up, take him back out, work him, put him back up, and so on.


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## Guest (Apr 13, 2010)

Now this is making me wonder (in general) how many people do silly crap with their animals, they end up dying, and just disappear from the interwebs in shame - never wanting to hear the dreaded question: "Hey, what happened to ____ anyway?"

That would be kinda funny on some level.

Features an over-worked dog: http://leerburg.com/772.htm

Brings up a good question, though. Can one train a dog regulate its temp with stim? That's classical conditioning...in a mystical, oriental, methaphysical, mind-over-matter kind of way...I guess. 

Speaking of which...that sounds like Fred 'n Ted's way of explaining how differently they use stim. Kinda mystical and beyond description. Explained the way Napolean Dynamite would do so: "IT'S NOT FREAKING PUNISHMENT! GOSH!"


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Thanks for posting that video, Steve. And a photo meme needs to be created for that, GOSH!


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## Guest (Apr 13, 2010)

See, here's what gets me.

The nuts and bolts of classical and operant conditioning have been sorted and identified over the past 100 years or so. For all practical purposes, every stimulus has been duly identified. Not a lot of room to go inventing new ones.

Now, I gaurantee (at least on a conceptual level), that I've subjected my dog to every stimulus which Fred or his disciples have done to their dogs. *It's not about a given application of X*...it's the intentional obfuscation of _what X actually is._


Oh, It's not pain...it's pleasure
It's not punishment...it's reinforcment
It's not A, it's B
"Pushing the envelope" just amounts to a massive campaign mis-labeling stuff.

I'm reasonably certain it's too alleviate people of guilt and money. 

In reality, X may very well be run-of-the-mill positive punishment. That's where I give the other e-collar cult leader a bit of credit. In his articles he frankly describes a dog freaking out from confusion over the discomfort he's administering. He owns up to reality, at least. "Yes, the dog is stressed out. That's the point." But Fred...Fred invents an entirely new class of stimuli, and his people lap it up.

Yes, animals make double-time to avoid pain. And? 

It's ok to accurately describe things. It really is.

Back to the point of the thread, it just seems risky to most reasonable people that invoking such a reliable process (pain avoidance) to amp up a dog who's giving you indications of lethargy is risky. That can't be controversial of me to say. Can it?


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Steven Lepic said:


> .... it just seems risky to most reasonable people that invoking such a reliable process (pain avoidance) to amp up a dog who's giving you indications of lethargy is risky. *That can't be controversial of me to say. *Can it?


No, it can't be, IMHO.

Thanks from me too for posting the video.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Steven Lepic said:


> See, here's what gets me.
> 
> The nuts and bolts of classical and operant conditioning have been sorted and identified over the past 100 years or so. For all practical purposes, every stimulus has been duly identified. Not a lot of room to go inventing new ones.
> 
> ...


Steve,

Fred Hassen has NOT replied to this thread, in fact Ted made a special point of saying he is not a SMS trainer

"I'm not with SMS sorry. We blend several types of training, and the collars are just a part of the way we train. I'm not close minded to one form of training, heck I use clickers from time to time. The difference is pretty simple, when the foundation collar work is done, the dog doesn't see the button as a correction, rather a push towards the finish line. When you take a dog from tradition avoidance training, to this form of training, it takes a while for them to re-hab. However, when you get on the button, they don't think "oh crap, what did I do wrong" they think "Mr handler, what would you like"
That's a massive shift. The rehab alone took me 30 days, three sessions a day to transition from normal collar work, to the form i use now." 

What's with all the references to Fred Hassen?


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Thomas you're a bloody strange one! Get off disrupting this thread and go piss in someone else's ear please, there's a conversation going on here in case you hadn't noticed


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## Guest (Apr 13, 2010)

Cuz Fred and Ted seem like peas in a pod. He accused Maren of "fluff". Then there's this:

"The stim is just push to the finish line"....?

I can't be the only one throwing up in his mouth a little bit at the pot-kettle-blackness situation.

Like I said, it's ok to describe things accurately. It really, really is. 

There's already body of work with accurate descriptions of these things. Go figure that people with "clients" can't just use frank descriptions.


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Ted provides a link in his signature line to a trainer who is a graduate of Fred's ecollar training . In a way then he has been referenced , IF one like me goes to that site . I would guess from seeing that link that it was there because Ted felt it was a good influence on his training . Then seeing that the Trainer was a graduate of Fred's ecollar training I don't think it's a big leap to figuring Ted uses an ecollar similar to Fred's way . Especially since his verbage is almost identical too .

Not saying anything good or bad about the training , just pointing it out to Thomas.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

maggie fraser said:


> Thomas you're a bloody strange one! Get off disrupting this thread and go piss in someone else's ear please, there's a conversation going on here in case you hadn't noticed


Go crawl back in your box Maggie. Fred has NOT replied to this thread and there was no reason to mention his name. FYI the thread started as "Mal tires fast" so the discussion has already gone off track. Sorry, but you don't get to decide how or when I reply to a discussion.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Here comes Ted.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Steven Lepic said:


> Cuz Fred and Ted seem like peas in a pod. He accused Maren of "fluff". Then there's this:
> 
> "The stim is just push to the finish line"....?
> 
> ...


Fred and Ted may "seem like peas in a pod" BUT the fact remains that Fred isn't part of this discussion. If you have a problem with the way Ted uses the e-collar, your argument is with Ted


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## Ted Efthymiadis (Apr 3, 2009)

Steven Lepic said:


> Now this is making me wonder (in general) how many people do silly crap with their animals, they end up dying, and just disappear from the interwebs in shame - never wanting to hear the dreaded question: "Hey, what happened to ____ anyway?"
> 
> That would be kinda funny on some level.
> 
> ...



Quote from the video. 
" Ira run up and down the hill 4 times and she got heat stroke. "
Well I guess we should all just stop our dogs after 120 sec then, because one of Ed's Mal's got heat stroke from running for a few minutes on a moderately hot day. 

Also a quote from the video.
" Different dogs get heat stroke from varying amounts of exercise. "

So my Mal has yet to get heat stroke, and is working better than ever, and is being given plenty of time to get water during sessions. Should I just assume that my dog is going to get heat stroke as quickly as Ed's Mal in the video? 

Not a chance, because he's worked much longer, and harder. 


A French ring III trial will take 40-60 minutes, should they make every dog stop every five minutes and rest?

This thread is serving to be a waste of time. Think before you post Steven.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Jim Nash said:


> Ted provides a link in his signature line to a trainer who is a graduate of Fred's ecollar training . In a way then he has been referenced , IF one like me goes to that site . I would guess from seeing that link that it was there because Ted felt it was a good influence on his training . Then seeing that the Trainer was a graduate of Fred's ecollar training I don't think it's a big leap to figuring Ted uses an ecollar similar to Fred's way . Especially since his verbage is almost identical too .
> 
> Not saying anything good or bad about the training , just pointing it out to Thomas.


Jim,

I glanced at the website in Ted's sigline and I did NOT see a mention of the owner being a SMS graduate. Ted did state that he was NOT a SMS trainer. I purchased the Mike Ellis DVD's and just attended a seminar this past Sunday. Does Michael Ellis get the blame for something I say about OC training?


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## Ted Efthymiadis (Apr 3, 2009)

Jim Nash said:


> Ted provides a link in his signature line to a trainer who is a graduate of Fred's ecollar training . In a way then he has been referenced , IF one like me goes to that site . I would guess from seeing that link that it was there because Ted felt it was a good influence on his training . Then seeing that the Trainer was a graduate of Fred's ecollar training I don't think it's a big leap to figuring Ted uses an ecollar similar to Fred's way . Especially since his verbage is almost identical too .
> 
> Not saying anything good or bad about the training , just pointing it out to Thomas.



hahahaha, well I'm just done for guys..... I have learned from a guy who has learned from Fred.....

He has nothing to do with this thread what-so-ever.

what a joke this thread has become.


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## Ted Efthymiadis (Apr 3, 2009)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Really though, can YOU do wind sprints for 25 minutes?


Ever put on a bitesuit on an extremely hot sunny day and run around a field as fast as you can for 15 minutes, then keep the suit on, and jump over hurdles for 10 minutes, then race a friend with no suit on for 5 minutes..... I have. I'm still alive Maren. 

I grew up on a soccer field, my father was a professional soccer player in Greece many years ago. 
If my body can do the work, my dog can run and work for 25-30 minutes.... He has, that's how I know, not because I'm assuming.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Ted Efthymiadis said:


> If my body can do the work, my dog can run and work for 25-30 minutes.... He has, that's how I know, not because I'm assuming.


But what about the thyroid check .. and how do you actually know he has never heat stroked? Just thinkin' out loud. In your OP you say he tires fast and other people give you advice and you are even given free vet advice. But you ignore that and force the dog and parade the fact that you pushed him through whatever imaginary wall he was facing seems kind of reckless to me, as it does to others here as well. 

Without checking for a medical reason why he is tired . . you are assuming there is nothing wrong. 

Oh well he ain't my dog.. 

I'll put it this way ..$75 vet visit $45 blood work .. finding out nothing is wrong = tax deduction! 

Not doing it and stroking out my dog then having to buy a shovel to bury him in the backyard with the money you saved from not going to the vet .... Priceless. #-o


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## Ted Efthymiadis (Apr 3, 2009)

Geoff Empey said:


> But what about the thyroid check .. and how do you actually know he has never heat stroked? Just thinkin' out loud. In your OP you say he tires fast and other people give you advice and you are even given free vet advice. But you ignore that and force the dog and parade the fact that you pushed him through whatever imaginary wall he was facing seems kind of reckless to me, as it does to others here as well.
> 
> Without checking for a medical reason why he is tired . . you are assuming there is nothing wrong.
> 
> ...



I don't even want to bother with this anymore, the dog is doing awesome, he's really freaking happy, same old BB you know Geoff, and he's working the way i want him to, without spending a dime. Actually he's impressed 3 new clients in the last two days to the point of signing up. 
While you folks were harping on me for stressing my dog we made enough money to pay my bills for 2 months. 

I asked a question, got several answers, did what I thought was most logical, it worked, and now I'm being treated like an idiot for getting exactly what I wanted out of my dog.

I want a few things from my dogs, I want them to work when I ask them to, I want them to be happy, and to be healthy. If any of you can contest to any of these things, then please come to nova scotia, meet my dogs, and give me your opinion on these things. 

Please close this thread, it's a waste of time. Good night, I won't be back to this thread.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Ted Efthymiadis said:


> While you folks were harping on me for stressing my dog we made enough money to pay my bills for 2 months.


From the Apr 9th to the 13th you made enough money to cover your bills for 2 months ?? Good for you.


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## Guest (Apr 14, 2010)

Did you wear your "Narcotics Officer" hat when recruiting these new clients?


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## Guest (Apr 14, 2010)

...because that is a very distracting hat.


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