# Sire vs. Dam



## todd pavlus (Apr 30, 2008)

I was curios as those that have experiance with breeding. I see alot of pedigrees where the sires line is highly titled but not the dam's. Is there a reasoning behind this?


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

She drops out of school, and has to stay home and take care of the kids.


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## todd pavlus (Apr 30, 2008)

I know that was a joke, but wouldn't you tyr and title the female before she was bred


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

I think there are 2 reasons...One it is harder to find a female that will be able to title than a male.

And second. Breeders whom want to breed a female. Will for go the titles, because of training time restrictions due to the bitch being pregnant and having to start and stop training months at a time. Especially for serious competetiors. They want dogs that are going to go to the top. It's hard to put that kind of training on a female if she is bred.


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## Kristina Senter (Apr 4, 2006)

I have been told that large-scale breeders are also less likely to work their breeding females because they feel like they are calmer and less excitable when not heavily bitework trained.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

A first time bitch for me you train the dog to a point and see what you got, but the pedigree is important.

Some think that it is the bitch that gives more to the pups genetically, I do not know, but a first time bitch needs to be bred to see what she produces before you can really say.


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## Sue DiCero (Sep 2, 2006)

Couple of different scenarios;

1. Person imports in or buys a SCH1 for breeding. Less $$ than a SCH3.
2. Female, bred to make sure that she can produce and then titled. 

Also, some females do change after their 1st litter. I know of a SCH3 female that was very different on the competition field after her litter - she has not really competed since then. Or, the dog is titled to a SCH and can not produce. Part of the reason males are used for sport.

I know of some people (not competitors) that were very adamant about not breeding before titling and breed surveys. Very constantly critical of those that did. Lo and behold, they are now breeding a female with no titles and no survey. Near multiple clubs and time to do it. Trying to backtrack- very funny to watch.

We did breed Fannie before she was titled (she is SCH1 and KK1 now). She and Emi were trained and then titled in between work, training and competing with the males. Both girls were trained and titled by Gabor (we did not send them out to get it done) and helper work done by high level and strong helpers.


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

I think titling is important, or _some certification of work,_ rather than to persistantly breed on untitled dogs. But, also recognizing the limitations inherent of each sport, I don't view the certifications as complete and accurate tests for breedworthiness. But they are a good indication that the breeder has put in time with the dog, for a more thorough understanding of what it may impart to its young. I'm critical of those who _never work their dogs,_ and still choose to breed them. But I wouldn't care whether the breeder did the titling themselves, _if they continue_ the work and understand the dog.

I think a breeder can only spend so much time and effort in a particular sporting venue, before it would begin to detract from other areas their efforts might be best spent on. Personally, my interest is in breeding, not sport, at least to the point of frequently travelling and competing on a high level. Perfecting a routine, doesn't tell me anything I didn't already know about the dog, or entertain me very much. Also, I think overfocus on a particular venue, may cause particular "blindness" in breeder's perceptions about the dog, and cause preconceived notions that aren't necessarily true about the work involved.

Jeff's been after me to get with Sandro, and learn a thing or two about mondio. I'm ready for that. I'm taking a leave of absence from my schutzhund club until my wife and I are divorced, so that we'll get along better when (if) I come back.

I've come to conclude that I have an especially harder time training females, and know others who share that experience. Nearly all females I've worked have become too sensitive of me, no matter that I've learned to soften my training attitude. So, I think my next breeding female (don't have any now) will be already titled, bred, then imported. I'm thinking that's a couple years down the road, because I want a very tough and confident female, and _seems hardly to be found!_

My wife is training a very promising young female, about 6 mo's old at the moment (out of Orry). She likes to work females more than males (thankfully), but is a hard handler herself, yet somehow "connects" with the girls better. I like her older female in training also, she's really tough and very biddable, but the intelligence of her younger half-sister truly amazes me.

I think emphasis is also put on males, because without strong appeal for studding him out to other kennels, _his overall influence would be very limited,_ to only the females of their own kennel (and the time that particular breeder can devote them).


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## Kristina Senter (Apr 4, 2006)

I know that I have a far more difficult time working a female as well. I generally prefer the temperment and workability of a male (of any breed) moreso than a bitch. This seems to be the case even if I am working a dog purely motivationally, I just find males easier.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Daryl Ehret said:


> I think titling is important, or _some certification of work,_ rather than to persistantly breed on untitled dogs. But, also recognizing the limitations inherent of each sport, I don't view the certifications as complete and accurate tests for breedworthiness. But they are a good indication that the breeder has put in time with the dog, for a more thorough understanding of what it may impart to its young. I'm critical of those who _never work their dogs,_ and still choose to breed them. But I wouldn't care whether the breeder did the titling themselves, _if they continue_ the work and understand the dog.


I agree and I will only consider buying pup from breeders who operate with this philosophy and ethics.
How ever there are exceptions my dog Jett's mother is a 5X SCH III import from Germany who never completed on American soil the breeder took advantage of a opportunity to get her however she was tested extensively before leaving Germany.
Nothing should be written in stone but ethics plays a big part in my consideration as dose second opinions.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

I always kind of wonder, if you don't have time to title the bitches, how do you have time to make sure the pups get enough interaction and socialization? :-k Even if they don't have a Sch 3 or Ring 3 on them, why not some more basic stuff, like CGC, TDI, TT, rally, etc?


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## Mo Earle (Mar 1, 2008)

with my female Tora, she was training for FR- I was about to compete her, getting ready for a trial- she was looking great- one of the guys had a litter of pups in a puppy pen by the field- a common practice-so they see and here the noises of training- I Sent Tora on her first face attack- did great, great entry, great bite, great recall- next bite, she went flying down the field and wooops took a quick left, and laid down by the puppies looking back at me, as if to say,aren't they so cute:-o....we laughed, but I didn't put her in the FR trial [-X later I did put her in ASR, she did really well and I train her bite work in club training a lot, but that is a lot of work and time to put into a dog, that is going to be moody-and might embarass you if she changes her mind about biting the decoy.... I'd rather work the boys.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

todd pavlus said:


> I was curios as those that have experiance with breeding. I see alot of pedigrees where the sires line is highly titled but not the dam's. Is there a reasoning behind this?


There are lots of reasons. First though, the "females must be titled" concept is really a German/Schutzhund concept. It's not the norm in the Ring Sports or Belgium/France. They work the female enough to know what her drive, character, etc are like then breed her, they don't worry about if she has titles, her job is to be a brood bitch, not a competition dog. If she produces well they will continue to use her, if not, she's out of a job.

Some people will tell you it's because of the time having a litter takes out of a females career, most people that want to train/compete don't want to loose 3 months out of every year while their dog is having pups, or deal with heat cycles. 

Some feel that breeders are just to lazy to title their females.

Some people feel they can only find the aggression, power, size, whatever that they want to see in a competition dog in a male, and won't work females. 

Some want to breed the female first, before putting the time/effort into training/titling her. 

So just want to make money quicker and easier. 

Some will train (test) the female quite extensively, but don't feel the need to proof the training to competition level, so no titles. They rely on their own experience and knowledge to decide if the dog is good or not, not a judges. 

Personally I think it really just depends. I didn't start in Schutzhund, or with German Shepherds, so my intro to attitudes behind breeding working dogs have always been slanted more towards the French/Belgian way. But at least 1/2 of my competition dogs have been female so .. However, I also remember being asked on MANY occasions when I was training/titling Cali "why are you working a female?" by the French judges. They just assumed Cali was a male and were quite surprised to discover she wasn't. And to be honest, has the "females must be titled first" concept REALLY helped with the quality of the breeds this concept is common in (GSD, Dobe, Rott, etc)?

Also, when it comes to breeding, the dogs ability to reproduce is the most important thing. All the titles in the world are useless if the dog can't produce good puppies. And sometimes the best competition dog (male or female) is not the best producer. But many times after a person has put all that time and effort into titling their dog, even if they know deep down it's really not breeding quality, they will breed it. Because there is a market for pups from titled females. And they want to recoup some of their expenses. And hey, she's a SchIII, she must be worth breeding.

I'm not arguing against titling females, not by a long shot, but I see pros and cons to it. And I'm not convinced that the concept behind it has really helped the breeds it's more prevalent in, in any way.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> There are lots of reasons. First though, the "females must be titled" concept is really a German/Schutzhund concept. It's not the norm in the Ring Sports or Belgium/France. They work the female enough to know what her drive, character, etc are like then breed her, they don't worry about if she has titles, her job is to be a brood bitch, not a competition dog. If she produces well they will continue to use her, if not, she's out of a job.
> 
> Some people will tell you it's because of the time having a litter takes out of a females career, most people that want to train/compete don't want to loose 3 months out of every year while their dog is having pups, or deal with heat cycles.
> 
> ...


 
What about using untitled Male? Do the same rules still apply? Kadi we have a mutual friend whom has a fantastic Sch3 female. He bred this dog to an untitled male he had lived with since the Male was a year old. The Male is not his dog. But his words were "I know who this male is, I do not think I am going to find a better match for my bitch"...He hit the money, and got some fantastic puppies. So much people whom know owners of the puppies are asking for a repeat breeding. Now for me, Looking at this Male. I like his size, and his athleteism....I have seen him work. He has a fantastic pedigree. But never in my life would I, myself have used this dog. He is not sure in his work...that for me was always a deal breaker. Now this could be training that some how damaged him for life? I do not know. It has me scratching my head....Was it more the bitch? Is the fact the dog is or is not a superstar matter?...Look at Michael Jordan. His parents seem to be good breeding stock. The Manning parents seem to make kids who can play football, the Williams sisters? Should we be going to the superstars for our breedings or should we use the dogs who made the superstar?


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

James Downey said:


> What about using untitled Male? Do the same rules still apply? Kadi we have a mutual friend whom has a fantastic Sch3 female. He bred this dog to an untitled male he had lived with since the Male was a year old. The Male is not his dog. But his words were "I know who this male is, I do not think I am going to find a better match for my bitch"...He hit the money, and got some fantastic puppies. So much people whom know owners of the puppies are asking for a repeat breeding. Now for me, Looking at this Male. I like his size, and his athleteism....I have seen him work. He has a fantastic pedigree. But never in my life would I, myself have used this dog. He is not sure in his work...that for me was always a deal breaker. Now this could be training that some how damaged him for life? I do not know. It has me scratching my head....Was it more the bitch? Is the fact the dog is or is not a superstar matter?...Look at Michael Jordan. His parents seem to be good breeding stock. The Manning parents seem to make kids who can play football, the Williams sisters? Should we be going to the superstars for our breedings or should we use the dogs who made the superstar?


Sometimes the pedigree trumps the dog (ie it produces better then itself) and sometimes the dog trumps the pedigree (it doesn't live up to it's pedigree, or it produces better then it's pedigree indicates it might). Sometimes the best producer out of a litter isn't that superstar worker but his "ok" brother. That's the "joy" of breeding and genetics. And sometimes one parent is so prepotent for production you can breed it to almost anything and it will produce well. I know people who will breed more to a pedigree then to a specific dog, and it seems to work well for them. But others will do the same thing, and it doesn't work out for them. And vice versa, some breed just to the dog in front of them, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. In each case I think the reason it does work is although they are (or aren't) breeding to the pedigree (or dog), they aren't completely discounting the rest of the package. Or they know the pedigree (or dog) well enough to know what it does and doesn't mesh well with. 

And you can NEVER discount what a good trainer can do. I want to know what a dog is genetically, not what a good/great trainer can make of the dog. Put a mediocre (at best) pup in the hands of a great trainer and in a few years you may think that's a super dog, definitely worth breeding to. Put an exceptional pup in the hands of a crappy trainer and in a few years you may think that's the biggest POS you have ever seen. But it's all in the training, not the genetics, and last time I looked dogs didn't pass on their training to their offspring. Breed each dog and you may be shocked at what you get, when that nice competition dog doesn't produce anything and that "POS" dog produces really nice pups.

Reality is, does a piece of paper saying a dog earned X title suddenly improve the genetics of the dog? I don't know that anyone actually believes it does. It does show the dog (and trainer) had the ability to go through the training well enough to earn the title. Usually, we have all heard of "midnight trials" LOL. The concept of titling a dog before breeding, be it male or female, is something that probably came about as a way to try to make sure people were actually testing their breeding stock once we moved more and more away from dogs just doing a job every day, and being bred if they did that job well. A way to prove the dog's ability to do a job. It's nice, but IMO a title is just the tip of the iceberg when considering a dog for breeding.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: But his words were "I know who this male is, I do not think I am going to find a better match for my bitch"...He hit the money, and got some fantastic puppies. So much people whom know owners of the puppies are asking for a repeat breeding.

People tend to look for a formula when it comes to breeding. Years ago, I threw this in the shitter when I bred two wonderful stable driven dogs with no bad habits and got a litter of extremely hard driven savage pups. They attacked each other, and the mother and me, and at 5 or 6 weeks, got out and killed the house cat. They were athletic and agile and all I could see was problems. I tried separating them, I tried shaking them, and all manners of things to get through to them, but they were just liabilities in really really well built cute Rott form. I culled the entire litter.

After that, I see so many people that do not breed enough to know, or just don't breed eviscerating people that breed an untitled male or female. 

What I do, is look at the person who has done this, and if they know what they are doing, I will test the pups.

A couple of years back, on my recomendation a friend bred her untitled Dobe bitch to an untitled male. The litter has done really well. There were enough mitigating circumstances to do this. One, I had worked with both dogs, and the bitch was really nice for a Dobe, and the male was owned by an older woman, and was what I remember a Dobe being.

Since then, unfortunatly, the male was put down. He was sent to a Sch trainer who I told not to let anyone but HIM work this dog, as he inhibits his frustration, and WILL take it out on someone, and that his bitework should be done everyday.

He ignored this, worked on OB, and the dog grabbed his kennel help and left 23 full dentition marks on her body, none on her arms or face. No rips or slashes. When this guy heard her screaming and was expecting the dog to fight him, the dog stopped attacking her and came off immediatly.

I guess he didn't want to be put back in the kennel yet. I worked with this dog, and had him in my house, with my other dogs, and never had an issue like that. He acted stupid one time, and I shook him till snot bubbles came out, with a few kicks to the head. Old school dog, Old school training. A shame, he was a nice dog, and bit like the devil himself .


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## Stephanie O'Brien (Sep 11, 2007)

I agree with Kadi and have found this to be very true in my experiences with breeding Malinois. Breeding a dog just because he/she is a Sch3 or FR3 etc etc is pointless and a dead end road. Breeding a dog because of what they are genetically and the TRUE dogs behind them is the way to go. Many prospective 'breeders' will ask 'how do I know who the real parents/grandparents are?' My answer is always: you won't unless you do your homework....and that my take many many years, many hours and many conversations. If your a 'breeder' that doesn't care about bloodlines and has NO knowledge of what any lines throw, then do everyone a favor and don't breed your d**n dogs until you care. Everyone makes mistakes and the same applies to breeding. Sometimes, even though everything looks good, you just don't know until the breeding has been done.
Some of the best studs I know of never made it to level 3 (or close to it). Most of the best producing females I have known were never titled. The few exceptions are out there... but very few. Many of these dogs are just 'too much dog' to be controlled for competition but they are excellent breeding dogs that produce more breeding quality dogs/top competition dogs. One of the nicest young Malinois I've seen recently came from two untitled parents (from a PROVEN bloodline). 
I have seen so many 'great' dogs that were 'made' by careful training but were genetically very less than ideal specimens for breeding. Quite a few of these dogs were bred and the breeder was actually surprised when the puppies were s***. Training/titles do NOT change genetics and so many people are blind to this. They think if they get some titles on their dog....its worth breeding right? Talented trainers are good at hiding big genetic issues with dogs and fooling the people that don't know any better into believing these dogs are good for breeding. On top of that, many of the puppies from that 'great' dog may have gone to very patient new people that will baby and build build build that puppy until it actually starts to look ok.....further fooling people that this dog is a good producer!
The opposite happens too. MANY nice puppies from good lines go into the wrong hands and disappear or never make it on the scene due to poor commitment from the owner. 
The line must be strong enough to carry down, there should consistancy in what the line produces. You will know good combinations and bad combinations by experience (yours or others). Breeding dogs should be tested: not just how easily they can be 'transformed'....uh I mean titled but they should have their CHARACTER, drive, stability and clarity tested. I am in *no way *implying that titled dogs are no good but if you want to breed them, test them outside their familiar program and do yourself (and everyone else) a favor.
Sorry for the strong opinions. I hardly ever post but this subject is one that is near and dear. Keep your eyes open...


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## Michael Breton (Aug 25, 2008)

I breed Mals and while I may work my females, it would be impossible to take the time to title them. The time lost when I did breed them would hurt training and what would the effect of working the dog after breeding her? Could she get hurt because of the downtime.

I look at the pedigree for dogs/kennels I like and so I know the COI when I breed forward. I have some dogs I like to see more than others.

I look at the whatevers I am trying to target in a breeding and I try to match dogs. I roll bones and use rooster blood and then I check my crystal ball. Then I wait and see what happens. The funny thing is if you get a winner you breed again; with no guarantee of repeat success.

I'm watching a mal for someone and I would use him at stud in a second. He just came from Belgium and he's a huge and athletic ring dog. He just finished detector dog training and he did great. He bites like a salt water crocodile. Better yet he has game and a great personality along with a clear head. 

He has no titles and I'm not even sure if he has papers. I would still uses him in a second. Why? Because I saw him work and I worked him myself. I think a lot of people use titles to make up for not seeing the parents. Hope springs eternal.


Here's a question. If you repeat a good breeding of good dogs and it bombs the second time.
Should you repeat a bad breeding of good dogs in hope of a good breeding the second time. Whats good for the goose is good for the gander.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

These are just my thoughts to “titling” a dog in Schutzhund, Mondio, French Ring, etc.
The word “titling” is foreign to me. In German we say the dog has passed SchH1, etc. and can move on to the next level. 

As I’m Schutzhund orientated, I won’t mention the other sports, although I have watched Mondioring and would like to do it.

I agree with many that just titling a dog does not say everything or anything about his qualities. To breed here under the Swiss German Shepherd Club (the equivalent of the SV in Germany) a dog has to have SchH or IPO 1 and this can be attained at any club trial in Switzerland. You can seek out a mild judge, mild helper or do it “at home”, i.e. literally “drag” him through it. This “qualification” coupled with a temperament test, allows all sorts of “breeders” to produce pups of maybe mediocre quality.

On the other hand, in this country, being a member of the GSD Club, means that an inspection of the pups takes place. You can’t breed from a dog that has more than the required HD requirements. Healthwise, we profit. Overbites, testicles not dropping, are noted, etc.

For me, a breeder wouldn’t have to “title” his dogs as long as he knows what he’s doing. But, and this is a very big but for me. How do I find him? How do I know that he trains seriously? At least at the “big shows” WUSV and BSP, at least I know that the dogs have been succumbed to various helpers and not just Joe Soap who catches them for fun. Also, working in huge stadiums with noisy audiences is not for every dog, even so-called good ones.

One other aspect is that to become an experienced breeder you have to have had a number of litters. No one can convince me that even a serious breeder culls what he can’t keep. Let’s keep on the carpet. We all have to eat.

“Don Turnipspeed, you’re not included here” I think your decision, however painful, was admirable.”

A lot of people “over here on the Continent” will not buy from a breeder who does not “title” BOTH dam and sire to level 3. Why? Here you have the certainty that the breeder is committed to his breed (litter) and, for me, important maybe, doesn’t have more litters than he can possibly be true to.

I think I’ve covered everything that is important to me. “Titling” is for me the icing on the cake, maybe but not the proof of the quality of the dog.


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## Stephanie O'Brien (Sep 11, 2007)

All very nice points Michael & Gillian.



> Here's a question. If you repeat a good breeding of good dogs and it bombs the second time.
> Should you repeat a bad breeding of good dogs in hope of a good breeding the second time. Whats good for the goose is good for the gander.


Again, sometimes you just dont know until you do it but I personally wouldn't repeat a breeding if it didn't work the first time. My experience with repeats is that they are never the same as the first litter but usually are of similar quality(good or bad).


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

There's no guarantee either that if it worked the first time, it will work the second time, as far as I know.


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