# Schh or KNPV TITLED DOG



## milder batmusen

Hello all you

I wonder a litle about these two programmes 

In Denmark we dont have either RING sport or KNPV we nly have IPO or PH its like police k-9 training not att all like KNPV we dont use suits or hidden sleves, but a ordinary sleeve.

What does the different programs make of the dogs like is their different types off dogs that can do Schh but KNPV and the other way around :?:

KNPV dogs what does it take to get a KNPV certificat:?:ops

what is different in PH-2 than PH-1???

I have only seen some off the bitework that is done.

How are KNPV dogs trained differetn from a Schh dog:?::-&


----------



## Tracey Hughes

I can’t tell you much as Schutzhund is my sport. But I will say even in Schutzhund there are HUGE differences in how people train their dogs!!!!!


----------



## milder batmusen

Tracey Hughes said:


> I can’t tell you much as Schutzhund is my sport. But I will say even in Schutzhund there are HUGE differences in how people train their dogs!!!!!


yes I know have alot og different traning both hard and not so hard:razz:


----------



## sam wilks

it would be a lot easier to find a schutzhund dog that can not do knpv then the other way around


----------



## Howard Gaines III

No suit work in SCHUTZHUND...


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen

Brilliant howard, well done. That information has been secret for thousands of years, and you just blurt it out.

Master of the obvious.


----------



## milder batmusen

sam wilks said:


> it would be a lot easier to find a schutzhund dog that can not do knpv then the other way around


Why do you think that is:?:


----------



## milder batmusen

Howard Gaines III said:


> *No suit work in SCHUTZHUND...*





I've noticed:wink:


----------



## Howard Gaines III

Well and skimpy suit then!


----------



## sam wilks

Mildred, just look at the difference in the type of dogs generally being bred for knpv and schutzhund. For the most part you probably wont find a dog bred for schutzhund with the nerves or drive to train for knpv. And I said for the most part so please no one get on here bitching about how I am bashing schutzhund, we've all heard it enough:roll:


----------



## Christopher Smith

sam wilks said:


> For the most part you probably wont find a dog bred for schutzhund with the nerves or drive to train for knpv.


Sam, do you know of any GSDs that have KNPV titles? Of those GSDs, do any NOT have schutzhund titled dogs in the first few generations?


----------



## Alice Bezemer

milder batmusen said:


> Hello all you
> 
> I wonder a litle about these two programmes
> 
> In Denmark we dont have either RING sport or KNPV we nly have IPO or PH its like police k-9 training not att all like KNPV we dont use suits or hidden sleves, but a ordinary sleeve.
> 
> What does the different programs make of the dogs like is their different types off dogs that can do Schh but KNPV and the other way around :?:
> 
> *In my personal opinion its easier for a KNPV dog to do SCHH then a SCHH dog to do KNPV...mainly becauze they are bred for different reasons and the program is completly different. KNPV is ment as a program to get dogs out into real life and LE as where SCHH is not and is more foccused on sports then real life work (from what I understand) Now a lot of people are not going to like me for saying this but if I, or a fellow clubmember have a dog that does not perform to standard in KNPV we will still be able to sell it into either IPO or SCHH since the standard is not as high as in KNPV...I dont mean this is a put down kind of manner or to talk down about either sports but simple fact is that in KNPV the amount of stress and presure put on a dog is a big difference as to the other sportsvenues out there. It doesnt make KNPV better then these sports, just different. *
> 
> KNPV dogs what does it take to get a KNPV certificat:?:ops
> 
> *A good solid nerved Xmali or Xdutchie will do the trick. Eager to work, high drive....dont ask me about GSD's since a good GSD is hard to come by and if its any good then its usualy broken down with bad hips and fked elbows. The only good GSD's that I have seen perform over the last few years are Gardefence GSD's (mostly solid black) and I have only seen them since I know the breeder personaly and he trains in my area. *
> 
> what is different in PH-2 than PH-1???
> 
> *Program is largely the same as PH1 only more expanded on the exercises to make them harder. plus some exercises are with 2 decoys instead of 1.*
> 
> I have only seen some off the bitework that is done.
> 
> How are KNPV dogs trained differetn from a Schh dog:?::-&
> 
> *Good question! not a clue, just know how I train and dont have a clue on what people do in SCHH...I know a part of the program but that doesnt give an insight on how the training works for them. I would have to say that in my thoughts KNPV dogs are trained with the idea of them going into LE or ARMY or such as where SCHH as more a sportsbased venue? But I could be wrong. *


----------



## Jeff Wright

*"It doesnt make KNPV better then these sports, just different."
She is being too nice.. It is Better.:razz:

*Gandhi vom Fuchsgraben is a Duitse Herder that is PH1 -418pts.
I think he is in Almere also?


----------



## sam wilks

christopher, I knew I should not have said anything cause some sensitive idiot would come on here with his feelings hurt crying about it. Do you really not get the point that I am trying to make. It sounds like your trying to stir something up. I believe this was my first phrase, 
"it would be a lot easier to find a schutzhund dog that can not do knpv then the other way around". I think that sums it up!:roll:](*,)


----------



## jeremy anderson

Alice Bezemer said:


> dont ask me about GSD's since a good GSD is hard to come by and if its any good then its usualy broken down with bad hips and fked elbows. The only good GSD's that I have seen perform over the last few years are Gardefence GSD's (mostly solid black) and I have only seen them since I know the breeder personaly and he trains in my area.


Not sure exactly where your at but I heard these GSD's were decent. http://www.duitseherder-heukske.nl/


----------



## Alice Bezemer

jeremy anderson said:


> Not sure exactly where your at but I heard these GSD's were decent. http://www.duitseherder-heukske.nl/



not anywhere near them  have heard of the dogs and have seen Youri in Den Bosch for the dutch nationals in 2004/2005, one of the few high ranking GSD's around. The breed nice quality dogs but I personaly would rank Gardefence Higher then VTH. but thats a personal choice


----------



## Jeff Wright

From the Gardedefense website fwiw-
[FONT=arial, verdana, helvetica]*STUDS WE USED TO IMPROVE OUR BLOODLINE.*

RAKKER - KNPV PH 1.
ORRY VT HEUKSKE - KNPV PH 1.
FLACH VT HEUKSKE - KNPV PH 1.
BRAM VT HEUKSKE -KNPV PH 1.

also in the trivia column -Heukske started out as a Bouvier Breeder.
One of my Bouviers many years ago was out of their bloodlines.
[/FONT]


----------



## sam wilks

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rX7wtNOkuHo


----------



## jeremy anderson

Jeff Wright said:


> From the Gardedefense website fwiw-
> [FONT=arial, verdana, helvetica]*STUDS WE USED TO IMPROVE OUR BLOODLINE.*
> 
> RAKKER - KNPV PH 1.
> ORRY VT HEUKSKE - KNPV PH 1.
> FLACH VT HEUKSKE - KNPV PH 1.
> BRAM VT HEUKSKE -KNPV PH 1.
> 
> also in the trivia column -Heukske started out as a Bouvier Breeder.
> One of my Bouviers many years ago was out of their bloodlines.
> [/FONT]


----------



## maggie fraser

sam wilks said:


> christopher, I knew I should not have said anything cause some sensitive idiot would come on here with his feelings hurt crying about it. Do you really not get the point that I am trying to make. It sounds like your trying to stir something up. I believe this was my first phrase,
> "it would be a lot easier to find a schutzhund dog that can not do knpv then the other way around". I think that sums it up!:roll:](*,)


Can you expand on your statement Sam ? I'm quite genuinely interested in the detail here, 'pressure' means a lot of things to a lot of different people. Bearing in mind training styles can differ greatly.


----------



## James Degale

Milder

Your questions are getting tiresome. 

You are in Denmark, not bloody Alaska.

Get off your lazy behind, and visit some clubs in Europe. 

Also why don't you use the internet to do some research, most of the answers to your questions are a few clicks away.


----------



## jeremy anderson

James Degale said:


> Milder
> 
> Your questions are getting tiresome.
> 
> You are in Denmark, not bloody Alaska.
> 
> Get off your lazy behind, and visit some clubs in Europe.
> 
> Also why don't you use the internet to do some research, most of the answers to your questions are a few clicks away.


James why don't you quit being a douche and let her ask whatever questions she wants. If you see her name as topic starter don't click on it. Why wouldn't you wanna help out a new enthusiast, dick.


----------



## Christopher Jones

sam wilks said:


> christopher, I knew I should not have said anything cause some sensitive idiot would come on here with his feelings hurt crying about it. Do you really not get the point that I am trying to make. It sounds like your trying to stir something up. I believe this was my first phrase,
> "it would be a lot easier to find a schutzhund dog that can not do knpv then the other way around". I think that sums it up!:roll:](*,)


 Sshh.....dont upset the IPO people. Let them think that all the show GSD's, Dobermans, Rottis, etc that get high points in Schh trials would all pass the KNPV PH1 program. It helps them sleep at night and keeps their blood pressure down.


----------



## maggie fraser

James Degale said:


> Milder
> 
> Your questions are getting tiresome.
> 
> You are in Denmark, not bloody Alaska.
> 
> Get off your lazy behind, and visit some clubs in Europe.
> 
> Also why don't you use the internet to do some research, most of the answers to your questions are a few clicks away.


 
Maybe she has tried Alaska and is making her way down into the bowels .


----------



## maggie fraser

Christopher Jones said:


> Sshh.....dont upset the IPO people. Let them think that all the show GSD's, Dobermans, Rottis, etc that get high points in Schh trials would all pass the KNPV PH1 program. It helps them sleep at night and keeps their blood pressure down.


If that is not a provocative statement, I don't know what is!

Chris, do you own a pair of budgie smugglers ?


----------



## maggie fraser

You do own a pair don't you ? Budgie smugglers.


----------



## Christopher Jones

I would class mine more as "Cockatoo" smugglers.


----------



## maggie fraser

Christopher Jones said:


> I would class mine more as "Cockatoo" smugglers.


Cracks me up :lol:.

We get good Fosters ads here, the latest figures budgie smugglers. Can't get them out of my head :lol:.


----------



## Christopher Jones

maggie fraser said:


> Cracks me up :lol:.
> 
> We get good Fosters ads here, the latest figures budgie smugglers. Can't get them out of my head :lol:.


 Fosters is taking the piss out of us Aussies to sell more beer? Seems fair enough.
Keeping them out of your head is not so bad, its when you can keep them out of your mouth that things start getting out of control......or so Im told.


----------



## Christopher Jones

Just for you Maggie
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2EUeOUCrLo


----------



## sam wilks

KNPV is better than schutzhund hahahahahahahahahaha:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:


----------



## Christopher Smith

sam wilks said:


> christopher, I knew I should not have said anything cause some sensitive idiot would come on here with his feelings hurt crying about it. Do you really not get the point that I am trying to make. It sounds like your trying to stir something up. I believe this was my first phrase,
> "it would be a lot easier to find a schutzhund dog that can not do knpv then the other way around". I think that sums it up!


 Do you always throw a hissy fit when someone asks you a couple of simple questions? I was trying to figure out your rational or logic when you made a statement like that. Have you ever trained a dog in IPO or KNPV? Have you ever been to a KNPV trial? These are not rhetorical questions.





Every year GSDs get KNPV certificates. Right? And every single one of them that I have seen has IPO titles in the first few generations. Many, if not most, have IPO parent(s). So it's a proven fact that IPO line GSDs can have the drives and nerves to do KNPV. And if the IPO line GSDs can do it I think that it would be a safe bet that IPO Malinois can do it also. 



Here is a GSD bitch with 2 sch3 parents getting a perfect score. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wvl7C8gxZNo



Have you ever seen a KNPV line dog get a 300 point IPO score? How about 290pts? 285pts?:razz:


----------



## Marta Wajngarten

While a KNPV could likely pass the Sch routines, I don't think it would necessarily be at an advantage scoring wise. 

OP, one big differnce between these two venues is that Sch/IPO is a sport where style and how the dog performs each exercise down to the smallest details are extremely important, KNPV on the other hand is more about just getting the job done and doing it well.


----------



## Christopher Smith

Marta Haus said:


> While a KNPV could likely pass the Sch routines, I don't think it would necessarily be at an advantage scoring wise.


Do you think a KNPV dog could pass the tracking?


----------



## Christopher Jones

Christopher Smith said:


> Do you think a KNPV dog could pass the tracking?


The knpv Obj Guard title actually has tracking in it. Also of interest is the IPO trainers who look into how the knpv guys train tracking.
Also most knpv dogs go on to police departments for real where they do tracking.
Tracking isnt an IPO speciality.


----------



## will fernandez

I dont think it so much about the dogs as it is the trainers. Take some of those PH I GSD's, put them in the hands of a trainer like V.D. Berg, Aerts and Fuchs, and you will see some top notch SCH dogs. The dutch dont really have many world class SCH trainers. But most of those top notch SCH GSD's are in the peds of the KNPV GSD (nick, tom) 

And as for tracking, the KNPV dogs can track. The step from finding a 9mm casing in the grass to a footstep track isnt to far off.


----------



## Christopher Smith

I'm sure they can track. My daughter's pound puppy can track. My question is, can they pass an IPO track? That means staying on the track, not cutting corners, not air scenting and indicate articles?


----------



## will fernandez

Yes they can stay on the track no cut corners and indicate. Assuming the person know what they are doing.

Oh dont know if you only ment GSD'S but the Mal Igor PDT came in second at the FCI WM2003 with a 291 mostly KNPV lines


----------



## Christopher Smith

will fernandez said:


> Yes they can stay on the track no cut corners and indicate. Assuming the person know what they are doing.
> 
> Oh dont know if you only ment GSD'S but the Mal Igor PDT came in second at the FCI WM2003 with a 291 mostly KNPV lines


Thanks for that info Will. It's nice to see that at least one person on this board can back up what they are saying with facts and not just parrot what their internet heroes said.


----------



## will fernandez

Christopher Smith said:


> not just parrot what their internet heroes said.


No problem.....Usually the same people that cant understand the differences and the similarities of the sports.


----------



## Bob Scott

K9 Mals and GSDs prove every day they can track. 
The Schutzhund tracking is a trained behavior. More of an obedience exercise then real world tracking.
ALL dogs know how to use their nose. 
I LOVE watching a dog do real world scent work. Watching FST is like watching paint dry.


----------



## Alice Bezemer

Christopher Smith said:


> Do you always throw a hissy fit when someone asks you a couple of simple questions? I was trying to figure out your rational or logic when you made a statement like that. Have you ever trained a dog in IPO or KNPV? Have you ever been to a KNPV trial? These are not rhetorical questions.
> 
> 
> *Just curious here...have you ever trained a KNPV dog ? or been to a KNPV trial ?*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Every year GSDs get KNPV certificates. Right? And every single one of them that I have seen has IPO titles in the first few generations. Many, if not most, have IPO parent(s). So it's a proven fact that IPO line GSDs can have the drives and nerves to do KNPV. And if the IPO line GSDs can do it I think that it would be a safe bet that IPO Malinois can do it also.
> 
> 
> 
> Here is a GSD bitch with 2 sch3 parents getting a perfect score. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wvl7C8gxZNo
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Have you ever seen a KNPV line dog get a 300 point IPO score? How about 290pts? 285pts?:razz:
> 
> *Who cares ? if its a KNPV line dog then it probably wont go into IPO to begin with...who gives a shit if it makes 300, 290 or 285 in IPO...its supposed to make 440 or 455 in KNPV....IPO has absolutly sweet **** all to do with that so why ask the question? *





Christopher Smith said:


> Do you think a KNPV dog could pass the tracking?
> 
> *I dont doubt for a minute that a KNPV dog can and will pass the tracking even tho its a fairly useless exercise when it comes to KNPV.*





Christopher Smith said:


> I'm sure they can track. My daughter's pound puppy can track. My question is, can they pass an IPO track? That means staying on the track, not cutting corners, not air scenting and indicate articles?
> 
> :lol: *what is it with you and KNPV dogs versus IPO dogs? does it piss of you of so much that KNPV dogs do things that IPO dogs dont ? why does a KNPV dog have to go down to the IPO standard to satisfy you ? and yes it would be a step down when it comes to training, and real life work. There is simply no comparing the 2 venues no matter how hard you try...one is not better then the other its just different, time you started to accept that Chris.*


----------



## Oluwatobi Odunuga

Bob Scott said:


> K9 Mals and GSDs prove every day they can track.
> The Schutzhund tracking is a trained behavior. More of an obedience exercise then real world tracking.
> ALL dogs know how to use their nose.
> I LOVE watching a dog do real world scent work. Watching FST is like watching paint dry.


Agreed.
If you train in both sports you'll know that the way the dogs are raised is different. KNPV trainers are excellent at using frustration to build drive whether with a mali, GSD or dutchie. The brandevoort dogs are from IPO lines and are doing well in KNPV, Leon von der staatsmacht SCH3 is the sire of one of their recent litters and the pups are doing incredible KNPV worm. The KNPV trained GSDs exhibit some mali like behaviours, that says a lot. 
I agree that IPO allows for a lot of weak dogs but it doesn't mean IPO dogs are all weak. Mia skogster's dogs are a good example:wink:


----------



## Alice Bezemer

James Degale said:


> Milder
> 
> Your questions are getting tiresome.
> 
> You are in Denmark, not bloody Alaska.
> 
> Get off your lazy behind, and visit some clubs in Europe.
> 
> Also why don't you use the internet to do some research, most of the answers to your questions are a few clicks away.


Gawd ! stop being such a prat James...If she has questions let her ask them...no one is bothered by it so why the hell should you be?


----------



## milder batmusen

Howard Gaines III said:


> Well and skimpy suit then!


yes



sam wilks said:


> Mildred, just look at the difference in the type of dogs generally being bred for knpv and schutzhund. For the most part you probably wont find a dog bred for schutzhund with the nerves or drive to train for knpv. And I said for the most part so please no one get on here bitching about how I am bashing schutzhund, we've all heard it enough:roll:


yes

I'm just asking because we dont have the sports in Denmark so maybe it seems like a dumb question
I just want to learn more about the different programmes[-o<


----------



## milder batmusen

James Degale said:


> Milder
> 
> *Your questions are getting tiresome.
> 
> You are in Denmark, not bloody Alaska.
> 
> Get off your lazy behind, and visit some clubs in Europe.*
> 
> Also why don't you use the internet to do some research, most of the answers to your questions are a few clicks away.


'


Then don't anwser since you don't have enything wise to write.

witch clubs in europe should I visit 
And don tell me to travel around europe because that is not possible or an answer and cost alot of money, if there where clubs in Denmark I would visit them.

I use the internet to . 

So what is the problem if I'm asking in here isn't tha twhat the forum is about or you are such a know it all :-#:roll:


----------



## Christopher Jones

milder batmusen said:


> yes
> 
> 
> 
> yes
> 
> I'm just asking because we dont have the sports in Denmark so maybe it seems like a dumb question
> I just want to learn more about the different programmes[-o<


 Just get in your car and drive to Holland and go see the KNPV and its dogs. Im sure Alice could put you up for a week or two? \\/


----------



## milder batmusen

James Degale said:


> Milder
> 
> Your questions are getting tiresome.
> 
> *You are in Denmark*, not bloody Alaska.
> 
> Get off your lazy behind, and visit some clubs in Europe.
> 
> Also why don't you use the internet to do some research, most of the answers to your questions are a few clicks away.


What do you know about Denmark 

well let me tell you that I would think Somalia or other poor countrys know more about lines and programmes than many do in Denmark the only programme many cares about here is the IPO and some for PH that is the programme I trained my own dogs in, and think its a litle bit like the KNPV but not everything


----------



## milder batmusen

In my personal opinion its easier for a KNPV dog to do SCHH then a SCHH dog to do KNPV...mainly becauze they are bred for different reasons and the program is completly different. KNPV is ment as a program to get dogs out into real life and LE as where SCHH is not and is more foccused on sports then real life work (from what I understand) Now a lot of people are not going to like me for saying this but if I, or a fellow clubmember have a dog that does not perform to standard in KNPV we will still be able to sell it into either IPO or SCHH since the standard is not as high as in KNPV...I dont mean this is a put down kind of manner or to talk down about either sports but simple fact is that in KNPV the amount of stress and presure put on a dog is a big difference as to the other sportsvenues out there. It doesnt make KNPV better then these sports, just different. 

You wrote this

and I'm always hearing that KNPV is much harder than the IPO or as someone wrote don't have the nervs or drive

why is this programme so hard for some dogs witch exercises ???
sorry maybe it sounds stupid#-o

Here a good dog is getting the good points in IPO and if a dog is trained in the PH programme witch is a litle like KNPV a dog is a shitty dog,many says that a dog trained in the policeprogrammes could not cut in IPO :!::---)


----------



## Howard Gaines III

Milder are you having fun with your thread...YET?! Nice way to "jack" the topic.

Footstep tracking would almost NEVER catch a felon, unless they were drunk and passed out in some field. REAL world applications require air scenting. As slow as I am...I understood Sam's point 8-[ 

My female Bouvier's grandfather was a KNPV met lof dog and trained in SCH.


----------



## sam wilks

Chris, as soon as I posted my opinion on the first page and followed it with a request that no one come on here bitching about me bashing schutzhund, what do you do? So predictable! 
I wont disagree with you that there are a lot of gsd's with schutzhund titles in their lines. Of course I never realized we were only talking about gsd's!
You tried to prove a point and were shot down! Another something to look at would possibly be the number of gsd's that get a schutzhund title compared to the number that get knpv titles every year. I don't know the numbers but I bet there are far less in knpv.
By the way James, you are a dick!
I was not throwing a hissy fit I just got agitated that once again someone had to take a simple statement and blow it up into something much bigger. Have I ever trained a dog for IPO? nope. Have I ever been to a knpv trial? nope. Have I trained dogs with different bloodlines for different sports? yes. Could I possibly have gathered my opinion, that seems to be agreed upon by others on here with much more experience, by working with these dogs? yes
Thanks for the video of the GSD bitch. Dont know what it was for because nobody said that was impossible.
Take a look at that guy Dick Staal I think it is. He is well known for tracking and what lines does he use? hmmmmm I think knpv right?
Ill be the first to admit I don't know shit about tracking so that's all I got for an argument there.
There are a good group of people here who are very knowledgable n this subject that obviously strongly disagree with you. I do think KNPV is better than schutzhund. That is my opinion and I am entitled to it. That doesn't mean I don't respect schutzhund. It obviously takes a lot of work to train for and I dont think anyone is taking anything away from that. There must be a reason you schutzhund folks get jumpy about this subject all the time!


----------



## Alice Bezemer

milder batmusen said:


> In my personal opinion its easier for a KNPV dog to do SCHH then a SCHH dog to do KNPV...mainly becauze they are bred for different reasons and the program is completly different. KNPV is ment as a program to get dogs out into real life and LE as where SCHH is not and is more foccused on sports then real life work (from what I understand) Now a lot of people are not going to like me for saying this but if I, or a fellow clubmember have a dog that does not perform to standard in KNPV we will still be able to sell it into either IPO or SCHH since the standard is not as high as in KNPV...I dont mean this is a put down kind of manner or to talk down about either sports but simple fact is that in KNPV the amount of stress and presure put on a dog is a big difference as to the other sportsvenues out there. It doesnt make KNPV better then these sports, just different.
> 
> You wrote this
> 
> and I'm always hearing that KNPV is much harder than the IPO or as someone wrote don't have the nervs or drive
> 
> why is this programme so hard for some dogs witch exercises ???
> sorry maybe it sounds stupid#-o
> 
> Here a good dog is getting the good points in IPO and if a dog is trained in the PH programme witch is a litle like KNPV a dog is a shitty dog,many says that a dog trained in the policeprogrammes could not cut in IPO :!::---)


lets first start of by saying this " the only stupid question is the question you dont ask" so dont worry about sounding stupid  this is after all a working dog forum and we all come here to learn (well most of us do, some just come here to bitch and make random stupid statements only to then run of again without having the balls to actualy reply to questions answered)

you ask which exercises are the hardest in KNPV ? well I would say all of them but its not really the exercise we are looking at here Milder its the amount of pressure put on a dog in order to get him to perform any exercise...mental and Physical pressure. I suppose you could say that we toughen a dog up in order to take whatever is throw at it mentally or physically. I think, and im speaking for me personally here, that when it comes to the difference between KNPV and other bitesport venue's that the difference is this...I dont ask my dog to do anything for me. I TELL him. I will give him room to grow, to learn all the exercises and to show me his potential...I will however NOT let him control or dictate what happens on the field. If he knows what is expected of him he will do what he is told consequences be damned. I will not wait him out or be patient with him and let him take sweet forever to make up his mind. I give whatever command that I need at that time and he will comply, if he doesnt he will have to face the aftermath of not complying...and im not talking a pat on the head here and a cookie coze hes such a good boy  and I think many a KNPV member feels the same as I do...hence our dogs are a lot tougher at the end of the line then other sportsvenues. lets just say that they can take an asskicking and still keep on coming without flinching....and NO they are not abused :lol: you will still see them working tails waggin and happy campers...


----------



## James Degale

milder batmusen said:


> What do you know about Denmark
> 
> well let me tell you that I would think Somalia or other poor countrys know more about lines and programmes than many do in Denmark the only programme many cares about here is the IPO and some for PH that is the programme I trained my own dogs in, and think its a litle bit like the KNPV but not everything


Your're a lazy, internet warrior, plain and simple. 

Denmark breeds some of the best dogs in Europe. I know for a fact that you have many helpers in Denmark have worked dogs in suits, police, KNPV.

Your breeders are VERY knowledgeable about lines. To name a few kennels who have INTERNATIONAL reputations. 

Jabina 
http://jabina.dk/a_engelsk/index_eng.htm

Daneskjold
http://www.daneskjold.dk/index.htm

Satoris
http://www.satoris.dk/

I say again - GET OFF YOUR BEHIND AND GO AND VISIT THESE PEOPLE. Bring your dogs along, let them work them in suits. Talk to them and you'll have all your questions answered. 

Or take Chris Jones advice and get on a budjet airline and FLY to Holland. If you book 2-3 months in advance you can get flight for less than 100 Euros. The rest of us can do it, why not you???


----------



## Jeff Wright

There is a actual trial and title in KNPV in advanced tracking -SpeurHond.
I have never actually seen a trial or even a dog with the title,but it is available.


----------



## James Degale

I am sick and tired of the whole stupid sports versus reality, SCH versus KNPV debate. Pages and pages of the same old crap. 

Usually started by newbie who want the toughest, meanest, reality dog they can get. When they get an avergae dog they mess them up with their sh*t handling and come back crying on the forum. 

The simple answer is it all boils down to the dog. I've seen a KNPV titled dog useless as a working dog, nice to watch on the field but nervy as a rat off it. And sports GSD which were hard as nails. 

Some of the sports breeders have seen more hard, real dogs than so called "reality" breeders will ever see in a lifetime. You think the "sports" kennels won't have a "real" bitch or stud tucked away? 

The debate SCH versus KNPV is just plain STUPID in my opinion. It just reflects on the persons who have not seen enough dogs in their lifetime.


----------



## will fernandez

good answer James


----------



## Adi Ibrahimbegovic

I agree, these kennels are good. John Jabina is, actually, which itself is pretty rare a breeder and a world class competitor.

To boot it off, he shows up YEAR AFTER YEAR in the WUSV and other international competitions (not just shows up, but he COMPETES with a legit shot at winning) and it's always SUPERB FEMALES. Every time I watch or follow a competition, he is there and it's a female, and it's from his kennel. That tells me all there is to tell.

If not him or his kennel, then his bred dogs show up for other countries competing.

Same with Satoris, that kennel and his dogs are always up there, representing.

Don't know that 3rd kennels mentioned, but this is more than enough in your own country right there.

I have seen you talking abut breeding your female, for what it seems like eternity now on different forums, maybe not eternity, but 2 or3 years, asking about this or that male, flavor of the month male, winner of this and that male etc...

Eventually, you'll have to make up your mind and stop obssesing and researching everything to death without any solution found, following and listening to this or that opinion, swayed by this and that argument, or your female will be 20 years old and still no end with questions in sight.

What he told you, well a bit bluntly, but true nevertheless, is this: no amount of staring at the screen and typing on the keyboard listening to strangers oceans away willbe better than visiing clubs, looking at the dogs from a few feet away and talking to people on the field RIGHT THERE and then. It is MUCH better than asking ambiguous questions here and watching endless you tube videos of hundreds of dogs.

Just an advice, for free, simple as that.

Also, don't get hung up, KNPV this, SCH that, Ring this and that. It's just a sport or a venue the owner trains in as a matter of choice, it tell you nothing about the dogs inside, again, it's inside of the dog that counts.

To make an analogy, would a world champion in karate kick ass of a world champion in Thai boxing type discussions are useless and lead nowhere (they could be entertaining, but that's pretty much it)




James Degale said:


> Your're a lazy, internet warrior, plain and simple.
> 
> Denmark breeds some of the best dogs in Europe. I know for a fact that you have many helpers in Denmark have worked dogs in suits, police, KNPV.
> 
> Your breeders are VERY knowledgeable about lines. To name a few kennels who have INTERNATIONAL reputations.
> 
> Jabina
> http://jabina.dk/a_engelsk/index_eng.htm
> 
> Daneskjold
> http://www.daneskjold.dk/index.htm
> 
> Satoris
> http://www.satoris.dk/
> 
> I say again - GET OFF YOUR BEHIND AND GO AND VISIT THESE PEOPLE. Bring your dogs along, let them work them in suits. Talk to them and you'll have all your questions answered.
> 
> Or take Chris Jones advice and get on a budjet airline and FLY to Holland. If you book 2-3 months in advance you can get flight for less than 100 Euros. The rest of us can do it, why not you???


----------



## milder batmusen

James Degale said:


> Your're a lazy, internet warrior, plain and simple.
> 
> *Denmark breeds some of the best dogs in Europe. I know for a fact that you have many helpers in Denmark have worked dogs in suits, police, KNPV*.
> 
> Your breeders are VERY knowledgeable about lines. To name a few kennels who have INTERNATIONAL reputations.
> 
> Jabina
> http://jabina.dk/a_engelsk/index_eng.htm
> 
> Daneskjold
> http://www.daneskjold.dk/index.htm
> 
> Satoris
> http://www.satoris.dk/
> 
> I say again - GET OFF YOUR BEHIND AND GO AND VISIT THESE PEOPLE. Bring your dogs along, let them work them in suits. Talk to them and you'll have all your questions answered.
> 
> Or take Chris Jones advice and get on a budjet airline and FLY to Holland. If you book 2-3 months in advance you can get flight for less than 100 Euros. The rest of us can do it, why not you???


I know all the kennels you mentioned,

I have seen good and bad dog in all off them, 

Plain nad simple many danish as I told don't work their dogs in anything less than IPO programmes I do know that the kennels you have wrote sell alot of dogs world round as if John sorry but very arrogant human, I like Finn from kennel daneskjold.

If I wanted to know about the IPO programme yes there is alot of people i Denmark to ask,if I want to know about something else that this programme I must search somewhere else.

If you have seen danish breed dogs work in KNPV trained in Denmark please let me know then I will get i touch with them.

well easy to take a trip to Holland but what about my litl boy he is 3 and my job I cant just leave for that long.

my economi is that good so what am gonna buy food with 

Its not that easy .

I'm sorry to say but because the jabina and satoris kennels have had dogs in wusv does not mean its a good dog in my eys.


----------



## milder batmusen

Alice Bezemer said:


> lets first start of by saying this " the only stupid question is the question you dont ask" so dont worry about sounding stupid  this is after all a working dog forum and we all come here to learn (well most of us do, some just come here to bitch and make random stupid statements only to then run of again without having the balls to actualy reply to questions answered)
> 
> you ask which exercises are the hardest in KNPV ? well I would say all of them but its not really the exercise we are looking at here Milder its the amount of pressure put on a dog in order to get him to perform any exercise...mental and Physical pressure. I suppose you could say that we toughen a dog up in order to take whatever is throw at it mentally or physically. I think, and im speaking for me personally here, that when it comes to the difference between KNPV and other bitesport venue's that the difference is this...I dont ask my dog to do anything for me. I TELL him. I will give him room to grow, to learn all the exercises and to show me his potential...I will however NOT let him control or dictate what happens on the field. If he knows what is expected of him he will do what he is told consequences be damned. I will not wait him out or be patient with him and let him take sweet forever to make up his mind. I give whatever command that I need at that time and he will comply, if he doesnt he will have to face the aftermath of not complying...and im not talking a pat on the head here and a cookie coze hes such a good boy  and I think many a KNPV member feels the same as I do...hence our dogs are a lot tougher at the end of the line then other sportsvenues. lets just say that they can take an asskicking and still keep on coming without flinching....and NO they are not abused :lol: you will still see them working tails waggin and happy campers...


Thanks for a very good answer:mrgreen:


----------



## milder batmusen

James Degale said:


> Your're a lazy, internet warrior, plain and simple.
> 
> Denmark breeds some of the best dogs in Europe. I know for a fact that you have many helpers in Denmark have worked dogs in suits, police, KNPV.
> 
> Your breeders are VERY knowledgeable about lines. To name a few kennels who have INTERNATIONAL reputations.
> 
> *Jabina
> http://jabina.dk/a_engelsk/index_eng.htm*
> Daneskjold
> http://www.daneskjold.dk/index.htm
> 
> Satoris
> http://www.satoris.dk/
> 
> I say again - GET OFF YOUR BEHIND AND GO AND VISIT THESE PEOPLE. Bring your dogs along, let them work them in suits. Talk to them and you'll have all your questions answered.
> 
> Or take Chris Jones advice and get on a budjet airline and FLY to Holland. If you book 2-3 months in advance you can get flight for less than 100 Euros. The rest of us can do it, why not you???


Yes of course he has some good dogs who would not have if you breed dogs like you change you underwear, some off all the dogs he breed must be good 

I guess if he breed less dogs I would like to see how good dogs theri would come out of it


----------



## maggie fraser

Keep those questions coming Milder, only harder and faster, there's a lot to be gleaned from these threads for me at least. :-D


----------



## Erik Berg

Mildred, have you titled your dog in the danish PH, why would the better dogs do IPO instead than PH in denmark? I must say I also find it strange that according to you danish breeders don´t have a clue what they breed on and their training and selection are worse than other parts of europe. Is it any country besides germany that has so many established and succesfull GSDs kennels compared to tiny denmark? Chades, degns, hulgaards and the other mentioned plus a bunch of others seems to be very good at what they are doing both for SCH/PH and police/militarywork, or don´t you agree?

If they are "only" breeding for IPO in denmark then what are they doing in the rest of europe, a few GSDs breeders in holland are doing KNPV but often with plenty of SCH-dogs in their lines, so worry about the dogs and not the titles/program instead. There seems to be plenty of intressting dogs to choose from in denmark.


----------



## milder batmusen

maggie fraser said:


> Keep those questions coming Milder, only harder and faster, there's a lot to be gleaned from these threads for me at least. :-D


thanks maggie:wink:

just think I would keep a low profile now


----------



## maggie fraser

milder batmusen said:


> thanks maggie:wink:
> 
> just think I would keep a low profile now


Stuff them...in fact, raise it right up their ass! :-D


----------



## maggie fraser

Christopher Jones said:


> Just for you Maggie
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2EUeOUCrLo


Thankyou :lol:.

I am cringing and laughing at the same time. I will dig around to see if I can find the ad I was specifically talking about later. :grin:


----------



## maggie fraser

maggie fraser said:


> Thankyou :lol:.
> 
> I am cringing and laughing at the same time. I will dig around to see if I can find the ad I was specifically talking about later. :grin:


Here it is....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yhm3sIZiaz4


----------



## milder batmusen

Erik Berg said:


> *Mildred, have you titled your dog in the danish PH, *why would the better dogs do IPO instead than PH in denmark?* I must say I also find it strange that according to you danish breeders don´t have a clue what they breed on and their training and selection are worse than other parts of europe*. Is it any country besides germany that has so many established and succesfull GSDs kennels compared to tiny denmark? Chades, degns, hulgaards and the other mentioned plus a bunch of others seems to be very good at what they are doing both for SCH/PH and police/militarywork, or don´t you agree?
> 
> If they are "only" breeding for IPO in denmark then what are they doing in the rest of europe, a few GSDs breeders in holland are doing KNPV but often with plenty of SCH-dogs in their lines, so worry about the dogs and not the titles/program instead. There seems to be plenty of intressting dogs to choose from in denmark.


My male is titled in PH.

Sorry but many danish breeders bred according to what points the male dog have scored in IPO . Many breeders looks for dogs that have high points in the IPO competitions not the dog itself.

I have spoken to many breeders in Denmark ( not all ) and many off them use what others do so if a dog is populær then many breeders will use this dog.

I'm am not saying that Danish dog are more useless than otherwise,but many of the good breeders are often the new litle breeder,but many base their breeding on the Schh title,and I have seen alot in my work at night even the Schh 3 titled dogs they cannot work in slippery floors or in a dark room that is genetical.

but ofcourse there are good dogs to find in Denmark.

I would like to see more from a breeding dog than a Schh titled dog ,like can he work in a suit,can he work in slippery floors or dark rooms or something else,but if a breeder has a good dog you are not allowed to see if the dog can work anywhere else than on the field


----------



## milder batmusen

maggie fraser said:


> Stuff them...in fact, raise it right up their ass! :-D


maybe there right::-k:-#


----------



## milder batmusen

Adi Ibrahimbegovic said:


> I agree, these kennels are good. John Jabina is, actually, which itself is pretty rare a breeder and a world class competitor.
> 
> To boot it off, he shows up YEAR AFTER YEAR in the WUSV and other international competitions (not just shows up, but he COMPETES with a legit shot at winning) and it's always SUPERB FEMALES. Every time I watch or follow a competition, he is there and it's a female, and it's from his kennel. That tells me all there is to tell.
> 
> If not him or his kennel, then his bred dogs show up for other countries competing.
> 
> Same with Satoris, that kennel and his dogs are always up there, representing.
> 
> Don't know that 3rd kennels mentioned, but this is more than enough in your own country right there.
> 
> *I have seen you talking abut breeding your female, for what it seems like eternity now on different forums, maybe not eternity, but 2 or3 years, asking about this or that male, flavor of the month male, winner of this and that male etc...*
> Eventually, you'll have to make up your mind and stop obssesing and researching everything to death without any solution found, following and listening to this or that opinion, swayed by this and that argument, or your female will be 20 years old and still no end with questions in sight.
> 
> What he told you, well a bit bluntly, but true nevertheless, is this: no amount of staring at the screen and typing on the keyboard listening to strangers oceans away willbe better than visiing clubs, looking at the dogs from a few feet away and talking to people on the field RIGHT THERE and then. It is MUCH better than asking ambiguous questions here and watching endless you tube videos of hundreds of dogs.
> 
> Just an advice, for free, simple as that.
> 
> Also, don't get hung up, KNPV this, SCH that, Ring this and that. It's just a sport or a venue the owner trains in as a matter of choice, it tell you nothing about the dogs inside, again, it's inside of the dog that counts.
> 
> To make an analogy, would a world champion in karate kick ass of a world champion in Thai boxing type discussions are useless and lead nowhere (they could be entertaining, but that's pretty much it)


I'm sure that you are right,but I to have a breeder that is the one that decides if he likes it or not and I had chozen Lubeck for a long time ago,but he did not agree with me and he is almost never does aggree,so that is why I have to search and search all the time for a new male.

and because I want something with alot of drive that can work not just adog that can get 99 points n Schh.

I'm trying to learn more about the males I like,I just dont want to breed something not good because theres alot of bad dos around.


----------



## Erik Berg

milder batmusen said:


> I would like to see more from a breeding dog than a Schh titled dog ,like can he work in a suit,can he work in slippery floors or dark rooms or something else,but if a breeder has a good dog you are not allowed to see if the dog can work anywhere else than on the field


If so, how do you know a KNPV-titled dog or other title are ideal for service-work, especially if the pedigree he comes from is loaded with SCH-dogs? If it´s a concern for you the dogs can work in different environment look for a danish policedog then, I mean denmark has about 99,9% GSDs as policedogs

Here you have a dog from a danish stud from kennel degn, learning to become a policedog in finland, some suitbiting at the end, he also trains in SCH
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aT7SIonPYFw&feature=player_embedded#at=589


----------



## Christopher Jones

maggie fraser said:


> Here it is....
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yhm3sIZiaz4


 LOL, we dont get those ads here. Its actually pretty rare to see people drink Fosters, as there is tons of different Beers that most people prefer. But Fosters have bought up alot of the premium wine makers here so they are a pretty big mob.


----------



## milder batmusen

Erik Berg said:


> Mildred, have you titled your dog in the danish PH, why would the better dogs do IPO instead than PH in denmark? I must say I also find it strange that according to you danish breeders don´t have a clue what they breed on and their training and selection are worse than other parts of europe. Is it any country besides germany that has so many established and succesfull GSDs kennels compared to tiny denmark? Chades, degns, hulgaards and the other mentioned plus a bunch of others seems to be very good at what they are doing both for SCH/PH and police/militarywork, or don´t you agree?
> 
> If they are "only" breeding for IPO in denmark then what are they doing in the rest of europe, a few GSDs breeders in holland are doing KNPV but often with plenty of SCH-dogs in their lines, so worry about the dogs and not the titles/program instead. There seems to be plenty of intressting dogs to choose from in denmark.


Erik 

I really don't see why everyone is making a big deal if I want to breed to a dog from Holland or Denmark I guess its a free world and we are free to decide witch dogs we want to use in breeding.

all the good dogs in denmark well I have not seen a hole lot of them ( dont say that there is not one )

I have suggested 4 dogs to my breeder and the two of them is in Denmark 

one is 

Chade's Atos a former police dog and cadaver dog and now a Schh dog 

and 

Valco Du Val Des Hurles Vent witch have been recently bought by the Jabina kennel.

and these to dogs from Holland

Lubeck vom der mahlermeister 

Inox vom haus ming

he told me no to the danish policedog Chade's Atos because PH titled dogs don't sell very good in Denmark, the buyers is mostly not intested buying dogs that is not competing with good results in Schh.

and he told me no to Lubeck 

Then there is two dogs left Valco or Inox He choose Inox as his first choice.


----------



## milder batmusen

I really don't see why this post is now about what type of dog I want to breed ,this post was not about that ,but I anted to hear from people that is traning in the KNPV and learn about the sport nothing else


----------



## milder batmusen

Erik Berg said:


> Mildred, have you titled your dog in the danish PH, *why would the better dogs do IPO instead than PH in denmark?* I must say I also find it strange that according to you danish breeders don´t have a clue what they breed on and their training and selection are worse than other parts of europe. Is it any country besides germany that has so many established and succesfull GSDs kennels compared to tiny denmark? Chades, degns, hulgaards and the other mentioned plus a bunch of others seems to be very good at what they are doing both for SCH/PH and police/militarywork, or don´t you agree?
> 
> If they are "only" breeding for IPO in denmark then what are they doing in the rest of europe, a few GSDs breeders in holland are doing KNPV but often with plenty of SCH-dogs in their lines, so worry about the dogs and not the titles/program instead. There seems to be plenty of intressting dogs to choose from in denmark.


I don't know Erik why many Schh traniners think that PH programmes are for shitty dogs that is the trend among many people that train the IPO proogramme.

If you where speaking to many of the Danish breeders you will come to the same consclusion I did that many only breed for points and many Don't know much about what the different lines give or dont..

Nick vom Heiligenbösch has almost never been used at the time in Denmark for breeding,and many of the dogs that has him in theri pedigree is a dog that was bought because thay thought it maybe is turning out nice.

Belshik Vom der Eickenbrucke is almost unknown in Denmarrk

Czheck lines or border patrol unknown almost in Denmark ( very few have them)

French lines unknown. 

Valco is bought because mostly because his results. not the lines.

I like both Nick and Belshik lines most and they har hard to find in a stud in Denmark. and theprogrency they bring to the breeding.


----------



## Gillian Schuler

Marta Haus said:


> While a KNPV could likely pass the Sch routines, I don't think it would necessarily be at an advantage scoring wise.
> 
> OP, one big differnce between these two venues is that Sch/IPO is a sport where style and how the dog performs each exercise down to the smallest details are extremely important, KNPV on the other hand is more about just getting the job done and doing it well.


Some of the dogs that were bred a good number of years ago in the German speaking countries wouldn't score well in today's Schutzhund trials either.

The attention to detail has become worse. I remember Pierre Wahlström knocking a point off a dog in the protection discipline because it had it's paw on the helper's foot [-X In my mind, as the training has become more sophisticated, and there are a number of dogs close in performance, this is their way of optimising selection. :-(


----------



## milder batmusen

Gillian Schuler said:


> *Some of the dogs that were bred a good number of years ago in the German speaking countries wouldn't score well in today's Schutzhund trials either*.
> 
> The attention to detail has become worse. I remember Pierre Wahlström knocking a point off a dog in the protection discipline because it had it's paw on the helper's foot [-X In my mind, as the training has become more sophisticated, and there are a number of dogs close in performance, this is their way of optimising selection. :-(


You're right 

that kind that gets the good points today is way more easy to control than the earlier days dogs 

today the real dogs with the exstreme drive is harder to find among the schh because they are difficult to train in the because their high level of drive the obedience moments is hard for some real dogs


----------



## David Frost

closed at the request of the OP.
DFrost


----------

