# Wolf Hybrid, The rest of the story



## Butch Cappel (Aug 12, 2007)

A post about a wolf hybrid was brought here from another MB. The post drew many responses, but the lady who actually owns the wolf was not a member and had no way to add her own comments about her own dog to the thread.

Patsy has joined this board but for some reason still can not post. She asked me to put up her reply about Luger, the wolf/dog so everyone can get the whole story. As she has joined I hope this is in compliance with board rules. Following is Patsy's story of Luger her wolf/dog.

I'll start at the begining, we found him at a shelter, that would have put him down if not adopted. I thought he was around 6 months old when I first saw him, but the vet informed me he was about 3 to 31/2 months, and what I thought was a well mannered and calm pup, turned out he was wormy. I walked him all over our quaint little town, and everyone that saw us, would approach us and ask what kind of dog is he. Of course I'd say GSD, they would then say no way, gotta have some wolf in him and I would say, no just shepherd. I did not purposely get a wolf/hybrid nor did I breed one. Every thing on my property is either spayed of neutered, well every thing with exception of my husband, and he's a tad bit nervous, LOL.

I would just like to say that maybe, just maybe, Luger is more dog like, because I didn't know I had a hybrid. I do not believe a shelter would have adopted him out had they known either. Any way what I was saying, is this. Wolves have keener senses, and maybe they become nervous and unstable because they sense their owners tension and nervousness about owning a hybrid. I thought I got a GSD and so I treated him just like that. If I'd of known he was a hybrid, like so many of you, and for the fear for my grandkids, I most likely would not have taken him, but it's to late now, he's here and he's here to stay.

I don't care what he is, we love him and he love's us. About 7 months or so ago, I took on a pure GSD, and it's, truly funny, cause everything that's been said about hybrids being so unpredictable and unstable fits the GSD, not my calm and well mannered hybrid. So you don't have to worry about us, and if you would like to see this awesome guy, just come on down to K9 Kountry on any given Sat. morning or Tuesday evening, except for this coming weekend, cause we are heading for the K9 Pro Sports trial in VA. 

Oh, and I have no idea how much is wolf or GSD or even the mix for that matter. I have never taken a dog to a trainer, until he came along and only did so because I could not stop him from jumping up on everyone he met, to lick their face, which might not be so bad if he hadn't grown so large. He now measures 36 inches from the top of his head, I know Butch says your supposed to measure them from the top of the shoulders, but I like the head.

He will let anyone come and pet him, however I do have to caution those with small children, cause he will paw at them, and he will scratch them unintentionally, I just have to watch him closely for that quick foot action.

As for me making money off of him, well that's not going to happen, he's fixed. I will say that many, many people have stopped us on our walks and ask if he's a stud, and I say sorry.

He gets along with 3 other dogs, I do have one older GSD that always wants to jump him, but I keep them apart if I'm not around. When I'm there they can be together, kinda strange, it must be the wolf thing,like on of the trainers mentioned in their post. He also gets along with our 2 cats, that are in and out of the house. I don't allow any fighting, everyone has to get along or they have to deal with me, and you know the old saying, IF MOMMA AINT HAPPY, NO BODY'S HAPPY.


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## Mike Lauer (Jul 26, 2009)

since you got him from a shelter how can anyone be sure exactly what he is?


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## Butch Cappel (Aug 12, 2007)

Mike,
I'll take this one for Patsy, since she still can't post (any ideas moderators)
It sort of goes back to the old rule "If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, even if you got it from a shelter, it's probably a duck."

This is one of those one look, no doubt things. But two vets, including the wild animal vet for the local zoo all think he's high percentage wolf. And so far every one that's ever seen him, and as he draws crowds that is quite a few, has asked where'd you get that wolf.

But you are right no way to be scientifically accurate.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Butch, Admin has to work the problem with the poster. He's been a bit out of pocket for a couple of days. He'll work it out, just give it a little time. 

DFrost


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Butch,

This isn't about Patsy or Luger. I don't question her motives or the fact that she loves all her dogs. She is NOT a professional dog trainer and does NOT know about protection dogs or protection dog training. She also is not an animal behaviorist and has NO experinece dealing with
wolf hybrids. YOU claim to be a Professional trainer. You allowing and even encouraging her to Protection train a wolf hybrid is irresponsible.
Wolf Hybrids are unpredicable, every expert in the field agrees. The risk doesn't justify taking the chance and training this wolf hybrid to do bite work. Patsy may be lucky and nothing will ever happen, but if it ever does are you going to pay her bills or testify in court if she gets sued?


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## Butch Cappel (Aug 12, 2007)

David

Thanks for your attention to this I will let her know.


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

Not saying anything about whether it's right or wrong to protection train a wolf hybrid, but isn't there some wolf blood in our German shepherds? Weren't they crossed with wolves way back when the breed was being created?


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Kristen Cabe said:


> Not saying anything about whether it's right or wrong to protection train a wolf hybrid, but isn't there some wolf blood in our German shepherds? Weren't they crossed with wolves way back when the breed was being created?


Hi Kristen 

I think all dogs have wolf blood if you go back far enough. There is a big difference in a dog with some wolf blood 20, 30 100 or more generations ago and a wolf hybrid that's 50% (more or less) wolf now. How many generations has
man been trying to domesticate wolves? Protection training 
any wolf hybrid is too dangerous IMHO


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Butch,
> 
> This isn't about Patsy or Luger. .......
> 
> The risk doesn't justify taking the chance and training this wolf hybrid to do bite work. Patsy may be lucky and nothing will ever happen, but if it ever does are you going to pay her bills or testify in court if she gets sued?



Brings up a good question though; how much of a chance is any professional trainer taking when training other people and their dogs. Regardless of breed, how much liability would be assigned to the trainer. Is any trainer responsible for; paying the bills, testifying in court if the owner of the dog gets sued. Is the possibility of this happening restricted to wolf hybrid or would it extend to other breeds?

DFrost


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

David Frost said:


> Brings up a good question though; how much of a chance is any professional trainer taking when training other people and their dogs. Regardless of breed, how much liability would be assigned to the trainer. Is any trainer responsible for; paying the bills, testifying in court if the owner of the dog gets sued. Is the possibility of this happening restricted to wolf hybrid or would it extend to other breeds?
> 
> DFrost


HI David

I'd think there would be a sense of responsibility if not legal
liability in any kind of protection training. That's just with a
regular dog. Something like a wolf hybrid, which almost every expert in the field says is unpredicable would be the last thing that I would bite train.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Just curious, but, doesn't the decoy have the right to refuse if he feels it is risky? As long as he knows I would think he could make his own decisions....or is that going to far back in time for that to happen? Is there a rule that prohibits a wolf hybrid from competing.


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## Jason Hammel (Aug 13, 2009)

I'm going to chime in but not that I am a proponent of wolfdogs/hybrids. IMHO I believe that it only pollutes the pure wolf species. The hybrids that find a home and are respected for what they are 'great' however others will either lose their dog to animal control to be euthanised (I believe the numbers are in the 100's of thousands) but some folks actually try and release them into the wild thinking they can make it there.

I did alot of research at one time in my life thinking that it would be an awesome animal to own. I looked at them all Saarloos,czechoslovakian wolf dogs, american tundra shephers, the italiano lupiano, and even ones that were said to be pure wolves. I wound up coming to the conclusion there are plenty of 'domestic' dogs that will be exactly what I would want around my children and others children. 

Now I was looking like crazy to find this one project I read about that the U.S. Military conducted in the late 60's when trying to create a super dog (not bio-sensor imprinting but hybridization). However now I can only find snippits of the original article and its only on the American Tundra Shepherd sites. Evidently the military realized that a pure breed GSD took to the bite training better than any wolf or wolf hybrid. Mainly because the human shyness of the wolf is passed down through the mother and the pups imprinted far to early with this particular trait. 

http://www.americanshepherd.com/history.html - the begining of this page has the excerpt from the original document I read. Wish I could find the original. 

Anyways if this lady has one I can't judge her but IMHO I would watch it closely around children. Every handler I have met that worked with both wolves and wolfdogs have said that they are just plain unpredictable. Usually comes out as the dog matures aswell. I would just proceed with caution no matter what.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Jason I agree with you.

Regarding the dog the original poster started this thread about, I wonder what would make an owner state authoritatively that her's is a wolf-dog hybrid, when in fact, she has no clue what the mix really is? It's much more likely to be a Malamute cross, and in any case, it's pointless to use this particular dog as an example of what a wolf-hybrid dog can or can't do, since no one knows what it is.


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## Butch Cappel (Aug 12, 2007)

Jason,
There are a lot of misconceptions that have been applied to wolves over the years and the different militaries have swallowed most of them at one time or another. 

David, that is one of the most often asked questions on the great www I think. I can't speak to every states laws, but I have testified in 5 cases, and two states about dogs I trained for people who used the dogs for defense. 

The way I understand it liabilities are assigned at the moment of the incident, not by the circumstances leading up to it. So the one that makes the decision to use the dog is the responsible party. As a trainer I was asked about the training of the dog and generally testified as to the dogs temperament, and proficiency in training. It was no different than an officer in court showing the training history and the certifications of their PSD. I haven't heard of anyone suing the KNPV or Global or any of the suppliers, not present at the time of the incident. 

My cases were three criminal and two civil and as anyone can sue anyone, there would certainly be a possibility that someone could be sued in civil court, but that would really be like a person defending themselves with a handgun and the lawyer suing the store where the gun was bought.

Susan, I understand what you are saying and have no idea how to put up photos, so you'll have to disregard all this, or just trust me. But Luger AIN'T no Malamute.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

I saw the photos on your website. I have seen many malamute gsd crosses that look exactly like the owner's puppy. You really don't have any idea what this dog is so why in the world do you and the owner keep insisting this is a wolf hybrid? What's your point? 

You seem to be discrediting what Jason said. What exactly do you consider to be a misconception and what are your creditials specific to wolves that make you an expert in wolf behaviour? 

Is all this a prelude to a new "wolf hybrid protection training" commercial venture?


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## Mike Lauer (Jul 26, 2009)

Thomas Barriano said:


> HI David
> 
> I'd think there would be a sense of responsibility if not legal
> liability in any kind of protection training. That's just with a
> regular dog. Something like a wolf hybrid, which almost every expert in the field says is unpredicable would be the last thing that I would bite train.


I agree
that said, this is America
if you dont want to do it, then dont do it
but if someone wants to train wolf hybrids or pure wolves and can find a business for it
then more power to him, good luck
its certainly not my place to tell someone what they can or cant do
we have laws in place to handle out of control animals
if they cause an actual problem those laws will handle it

if we start passing laws to prevent every crime that may or may not happen you would have no freedom or liberty at all


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Mike Lauer said:


> I agree
> that said, this is America
> if you dont want to do it, then dont do it
> but if someone wants to train wolf hybrids or pure wolves and can find a business for it
> ...


Hi Mike,

I wasn't suggesting any new laws (we've got way too many of those) be passed. I am suggesting/hoping that any reputable trainer would realize the danger in trying to train
an "animal" that the vast majority of experts say is unstable.
Unfortunately, there are still some self proclaimed "experts"
out there more interested in making a buck and/or stroking their own egos :-(


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## Butch Cappel (Aug 12, 2007)

Ms. Tuck, I seem to have done a very poor job of stating my position on all this. Thank you for allowing me to clarify, for anyone else I may have confused.

First you asked; _I have seen many malamute gsd crosses that look exactly like the owner's puppy. You really don't have any idea what this dog is so why in the world do you and the owner keep insisting this is a wolf hybrid? What's your point?_ Fair enough, but I have no point. This was all started by a person not concerned with me or this animal or the owner. 

I have not stated it was definitely a wolf, only what two Vets have said. My statement was there was _"NO way to come to a scientific certainty either way"_, but one of the vets being a wild animal vet impressed me with his opinion. To clarify more; I posted a response for the owner because she couldn't, those are her words not mine. 

PS Yes, I also kept cougars as well as few tigers and lions over the years

You then said I had some how discredited Jasons statement and I must apologies to Jason and anyone else that thinks that. Jason said; _Evidently the military realized that a pure breed GSD took to the bite training better than any wolf or wolf hybrid. Mainly because the human shyness of the wolf is passed down through the mother and the pups imprinted far to early with this particular trait._

I replied; _Jason,
There are a lot of misconceptions that have been applied to wolves over the years and the different militaries have swallowed most of them at one time or another._ I felt that was in agreement with Jason as I definitely agree with him.

You then asked; _what are your creditials specific to wolves that make you an expert in wolf behaviour?_ 

I don't recall saying anything about having any experience with wolves in this thread? I certainly don't consider myself an expert in anything, except how to get along with my own dogs, but if you are asking if I have had any experiences with wolves I would have to say "Yes". 

My security dog company had kennels in El Paso Tx, Juarez, Mexico, and Chaparral New Mexico. That corridor of the Guadalupe mountains is a like a major highway for predators migrating from New Mexico to southern Mexico and back. As a result there was a large number of hybrid wolf breeders in that area capturing wolves and mountain lions.

In New Mexico it is illegal to own even a hybrid and when the wildlife dept. found wolf breeders they used my kennel to keep the wolves they confiscated until other arrangements could be made, so over the years I have had quite a number of wolves to deal with. 

I had she-wolves having litters, and would have to get them up to a healthy weight, before mother or pups could be shipped and I had wild wolves that may have been caught raiding backyards in Las Cruces. 

I also trained for two very large hybrid breeders in El Paso Tx. that had been in business for years and really had hybrid breeding down to a science. I have also tried to keep up with all the works of David Mech, whether in book form for the general public, or for university or science studies.

I am NOT an expert on wolf behavior but do feel I may have had a little more hands on experience than some others. but if at any time I came across as an expert in this thread I apologize, as that was never my intention. I just answered for a person that surprisingly found her dog the topic of conversation on a board she had never heard of.


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## Jason Hammel (Aug 13, 2009)

Butch,

Those Kennels down in El Paso wouldn't happen to be wolfhaven kennels otherwise know as wolfhaven spirits of the past on the net would they?


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Mike Lauer said:


> I agree
> that said, this is America
> if you dont want to do it, then dont do it
> but if someone wants to train wolf hybrids or pure wolves and can find a business for it
> ...


That's right, this used to be America....where people could think for themselves. I expect that in the near future that the do gooders will put a stop to rock climbing, motorcycle motocross races and everything else where someone could get hurt. Everyone should just be little munchkins. Catching for many domestic dogs is pretty risky in my opinion and I would get no "living on the edge" thrill out of it personally, but, if someone else does, more power to them.


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## Butch Cappel (Aug 12, 2007)

Jason, 
You are truly a man of the world, they would have been on the west side, I didn't know they were still around!

The following, let me make this very, very clear, is the response and words of Patsy, Luger's owner NOT MINE.

I can certainly understand your concerns, I do have to agree though with one post about trainers responsibility, point well made, however I do believe that responsibility is all mine, no bodies twisting my arms.

As for the militaries attempt at hybrids, they more than likely didn't wait for the dogs to be ready and pushed them IMO. Luger was not interested until he was Little over 2 years old, and we are usually training domesticated dogs way before the age of one. This might be the difference in stable and unstable.

As for my grand kids being around him, no worries, but I would like to add that I teach my grand kids how to be around all dogs. You know as well as I do, that domesticated dogs are injuring children these days more often than when I was a child, and I think it's due to not properly teaching our kids how to be around our K9 pals. You know like not staring at a dog, pulling ears, or tails, kicking, hitting. I never left small children alone with our dogs mostly to protect the dog, as well, as to teach the child proper behavior, so they could be safe from harm by a dog. If people would just realize that a dog uses his mouth that has teeth like we use our hands for corrections, they would correct the children before the dog does.

I will be keeping an eye on Luger as he gets older, but I will also do the same as with any of my dogs that get older. Heck even I get grouchier as I get older, and I've seen many a domesticated dog get mean and have little patience for children and even some adults as they age.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Butch Cappel said:


> Fair enough, but I have no point. This was all started by a person not concerned with me or this animal or the owner.
> 
> >Butch
> 
> ...


>you did in the original thread

"As to my opinion on wolf hybrids in protection training? First let me say I have worked with wolves for over twenty years and I always discourage people from getting one as a pet, just as I discourage people from getting lions & tigers (which I have also had living in my house) or even Pythons. But how do they do in protection work?

I think it is accurate to say that if you came upon a wolf pack in the wild and threatened them they would defend themselves. So I see no problem in taking a behavior they exhibit naturally, and shaping it to benefit the owner."

>it sure seems like you're claiming some kind of expertise
>when you claim 20 years experience and suggest using
>the wolf pack drive to PP train a hybrid?


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> That's right, this used to be America....where people could think for themselves. I expect that in the near future that the do gooders will put a stop to rock climbing, motorcycle motocross races and everything else where someone could get hurt. Everyone should just be little munchkins. Catching for many domestic dogs is pretty risky in my opinion and I would get no "living on the edge" thrill out of it personally, but, if someone else does, more power to them.


Actually my personal concern is not for the idiots who buy them but can't handle them, my concern is for the legions of hybrids that end up destroyed or living miserable lives in rescues because somebody wanted to live out their wolf fantasy in real life and were told by "breeders" the hybrids aren't much different than dogs, if at all.

Again there absolutely are those hybrids, make good pets, and are in the hands of responsible owners, living a good life, but they are the exception not the rule.

As to whether or not anyone wants to turn a discussion about wolves and hybrids into a political discussion so they can stand on their soap box about what is wrong with American today, I can control myself enough to abide by the rules of the board and will not air my political opinion nor comment on yours, but feel free to ruin the thread if you want, after all this is America......Oh wait, maybe not, doesn't the owner of this board live in Canada having moved from Europe recently? ;-)


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## Butch Cappel (Aug 12, 2007)

Again I stand corrected, seems I had mentioned I worked with wolves, I in no way meant to imply I was any sort of expert. And as I said in my first response others had spoken to both sides of the question. I saw no reason to say anything, and tried not to.

Point and Game to Ms. Tuck


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Butch I have no quarrel with you, my only "point" is if people are going to have hybrids, (and they will), I would like to see the breeders be responsible and make sure buyers know what they are getting into, understand the realities rather than the fantasy, have access to trainers who understand hybrids and have the wherewithall and the means and a contingent plan to care for the animals should it not turn out as they wished, rather than turning them into someone elses problem by dumping them on a rescuer.

Sort of like what I expect from any good breeder.


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## Mike Lauer (Jul 26, 2009)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Hi Mike,
> I am suggesting/hoping that any reputable trainer would realize the danger in trying to train
> an "animal" that the vast majority of experts say is unstable. :-(


 good thing Einstein didn't think like that

I know i can be adverse and argumentative but I agree with you.
I personally would never want a wolf or hybrid or whatever
I don't train for my ego, if something happened, i would protect my dog, not the other way around

that said...

"I may not believe what you have to say, but I will fight to the death for your right to say it"


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## Jason Hammel (Aug 13, 2009)

Yep Butch they are still around. I just got a email from them today matter of fact of their last litter. I guess I am still on the email list from way back when I was researching the breed. However I will say their dogs look like dogs to me. However they stick to the 99% wolf story and swear they aren't hybrids. Even though they look like hybrids to me.


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## Butch Cappel (Aug 12, 2007)

Jason,
I always wondered how they figured out which toenail was that 1%, and those are some mighty fine looking dogs er, Wolf/dogs, I mean 99% Wolfies! 

But hey! Pappy told me to never argue with success, and they certainly are that, especially if they are still around.

Makes you proud you stuck with your dog!


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

susan tuck said:


> Actually my personal concern is not for the idiots who buy them but can't handle them, my concern is for the legions of hybrids that end up destroyed or living miserable lives in rescues because somebody wanted to live out their wolf fantasy in real life and were told by "breeders" the hybrids aren't much different than dogs, if at all.
> 
> Again there absolutely are those hybrids, make good pets, and are in the hands of responsible owners, living a good life, but they are the exception not the rule.
> 
> As to whether or not anyone wants to turn a discussion about wolves and hybrids into a political discussion so they can stand on their soap box about what is wrong with American today, I can control myself enough to abide by the rules of the board and will not air my political opinion nor comment on yours, but feel free to ruin the thread if you want, after all this is America......Oh wait, maybe not, doesn't the owner of this board live in Canada having moved from Europe recently? ;-)


Susan, you shouild keep to the subject then. Your not perfect and I can name a time or two you ruined a topic because your delicate sensibilites were offended.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Susan, you shouild keep to the subject then. Your not perfect and I can name a time or two you ruined a topic because your delicate sensibilites were offended.


Don you must have me confused with someone who gives a rat's ass what you think. I am completely on topic, as usual, YOU aren't.


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## Jennifer Marshall (Dec 13, 2007)

I have only loosely been following this - I have not read every post as I don't feel the need to. These conversations come up so often I just put in my .02 and try to walk away.

I have a fair amount of experience with wolves and wolfdogs. My interest in dogs was kindled by watching wolves and high content F1 wolfdogs owned by my babysitter, a Cherokee woman whose family had owned wolves for generations.

I have trained/handled over 30 rescues and owned 2 myself (rescues I kept) from F3 or F4 20% or less to pure blooded wolves.

They are not pets. I help with these animals because I feel that my experience obligates me, not because I think they are awesome. They are not at fault, but just the same they are not pets. I have had to put down too many of them because there was no other option and it angers me that they were bred to begin with.

Many people say that they are unpredictable. This is not true in a general sense. If you don't know Jack about wolves then yes they would seem unpredicable, but if you understant wolf behavior they are quite predictable. WWS is the biggest problem I see with F1s and high contents. People have no idea it exists and it will become a HUGE PROBLEM when the animal matures. WWS is Winter Wolf Syndrome, it is wolf breeding season (winter/early spring) and F1s/high content wolfdogs are at risk for it. The higher the % of wolf, the more likely you will have an animal with WWS. WWS is behind many horror stories involving these animals "turning" or showing "unpredictable aggression." 
When raised by someone who knows what the hell they are doing and does not expect the animal to be a house pet and just like Fluffy or Fido, they can be quite stable and calm but they are not dogs. They are not pets. The measures required to contain them can be extreme.

With that said most "wolfdogs" I have seen have very very little or no wolf in them at all! I know of people that have been breeding mutts that look like wolves and marketing them as wolfdogs. Imagine a cross between various Spitz and Herders. Like Laikas/Elkhounds/Huskies/Malamutes/GSDs/Malinois .... There are huge number of breeds that can be crossed that produce wolfy looking offspring.

Looks alone are NO indication of ancestry when it comes to wolfdogs. BEHAVIOR is the key. If it acts like a dog, it is not likely to be a wolfdog. If it acts like a wolf, even if it looks like a dog, it is probably a wolfdog.

Eye shape/size/color, ear shape/size/set, length and type of leg/bone, body structure, head type, hair texture/type/color, the set and carry of the tail, ETC these are things to look at then judging a wolf from a dog or wolfdog from a dog, but even if everything else screams wolf if the behavior is doggy it is a DOG.


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## Jason Hammel (Aug 13, 2009)

Jennifer everything you just wrote is everything I found out in my research and why I chose not to get a wolf,wolfdog,or hybrid. I think you hit the nail on the head. I think wolves should be left as wolves and dogs dogs. I truly love wolves but they have their place where they belong and its not in my back yard with my daughter.


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## Jason Moore (May 3, 2009)

With me to each his/her own. But it's kinda like taking a mountain lion,bob cat, panther etc and calling them a house cat. IMO wolves and hybrid wolves (high percentage bred) are like all the rest of the wild animals. They can be owned and if one wants to so be it. But I don't think they can ever be called a true pet. Because when it comes down to it they are wild at heart and can all be (when one doesn't know what to look for) unpredictable. 
I guess you can kinda compare them to a knpv/sch/fr/mr/br breeder, that breeds high drive dogs/puppies. For those that are bought as a pet and don't do what they were bred to do. Be it a wild animal that by nature is supposed to run wild. Or the high drive and some times more aggressive sport/knpv/psd bred dogs. They usualy end up in a cage for the latter part of there life for one reason or another.


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## Mo Earle (Mar 1, 2008)

Jennifer Marshall said:


> Looks alone are NO indication of ancestry when it comes to wolfdogs. BEHAVIOR is the key. If it acts like a dog, it is not likely to be a wolfdog. If it acts like a wolf, even if it looks like a dog, it is probably a wolfdog.
> 
> Eye shape/size/color, ear shape/size/set, length and type of leg/bone, body structure, head type, hair texture/type/color, the set and carry of the tail, ETC these are things to look at then judging a wolf from a dog or wolfdog from a dog, but even if everything else screams wolf if the behavior is doggy it is a DOG.


two questions- could a DNA sample be taken to determine if actually a dog, a wolf or wolf hybrid-if someone had the resources to get one done?

second- Couldn't a very young wolf pup that is separated from his pack, learn domesticated behaviors, or "doggy behaviors?" Because the wolf I took care of- did sit,come,walk on leash etc, when directed to do so, a lot of the behaviors we expect from our trained dogs,but from your statement,it seems to say, if he did this he could NOT be a wolf?

If wolves can not do or demonstrate these doggie behaviors. is it because they will not tolerate the lessons, they are to dominant, or not smart enough to learn these behaviors? 

(I find this interesting,and a debatable topic, although I am no expert in this area, and I am not trying to argue at all here, although it can sound like that when reading this, but the animal I had as a boarder in our kennel, was known to be a wolf, the owner had special permits and had special fencing at his property and came and checked the security of my kennels before ever boarding with us -but was housebroken, walked with a leash, sat on command......??. )


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Mo Earle said:


> two questions- could a DNA sample be taken to determine if actually a dog, a wolf or wolf hybrid-if someone had the resources to get one done?


Sometimes. 

I did read during the summer that UC Davis was working on a DNA test that will definitively differentiate between them.

Until I read that, I thought that Robert Wayne's papers represented the most up-to-date knowledge:

http://www.fiu.edu/~milesk/Genetics.htm


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Haven't they used DNA to determine the status of the Red Wolf in the SE? 
I think the same for the Mexican Wolf in the SW.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> Haven't they used DNA to determine the status of the Red Wolf in the SE?
> I think the same for the Mexican Wolf in the SW.


Didn't that project run into a ton of ambiguity because of hybridizing with both coyotes and grey wolves?


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Don't quote me, though. I'm over my head when I'm reading DNA stuff.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Didn't that project run into a ton of ambiguity because of hybridizing with both coyotes and grey wolves?



Yes with the Red Wolf. Not so much with the Mexican Wolf. 
One of my sisters works for the Missouri Dept of Conservation and she's told me that the coyotes in Missouri have a high % of dog in them. 
Previous to the Dept of Conservation she worked at the Wolf Sanctuary. They were responsable for the breeding and return of the Mexican wolf.


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## Jennifer Marshall (Dec 13, 2007)

I am not sure about the DNA testing. I think they would be able to determine the possibilty of wolf heritage but not be able to tell you how much it had, how far back, etc.

A wolfdog that is low content and F3 or further would be far more doggy in behavior than an F1 or F2 mid or high content.

Mo, wolves can be conditioned and "trained" to a degree, but they work differently than dogs. Most of them don't have a whole lot of food drive that I have seen or it disapears quickly, it is enough to get their attention but not if something else is going on, same with prey drive. If someone that knows what they are doing has the animal then there is a good possibility it will be more stable.

The problems come from people who expect a wolf or wolfdog to be a dog. They are not poodles or labs, they don't crave your affection and attention and want to please you all the time, they are in general not biddable like a dog. They are trainable, if you understand their behavior. They won't learn dog behavior just on their own because they are not dogs, but like with a dog you can shape their behavior to be more like a dog. They are also very intelligent and can learn from observing dogs within their own pack.

Being able to teach an animal to do what a different animal does is not teaching it to be that other animal. If that makes sense. Like I taught my horses to sit and lie down and wave and they were halter/lead broke and "followed me like a dog" but that did not make them a dog. I trained my cat to retrieve and he will sit and do various other things on command but he is also not a dog.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Hi Jennifer: I know with horse/donkey breeding (true hybrid) if the sire is a donkey you get a mule, which is a decidedly different creature than a hinny, which is what you get when the sire is a horse. Mules and hinnies not only look different from each other, in my experience, they also act different. I'm curious, even though wolf/dogs are not true hybrids, have you noticed anything similar in F1 wolf/dogs?


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## Jennifer Marshall (Dec 13, 2007)

Susan, that would be an interesting study. Unfortunately, I rarely knew the parentage of the animals.

For me I think the behavior difference would be more from what the pups learned from the mother, not so much what species or breed the mother was. The other factor is that a lot of the people who "breed" wolfdogs don't handle the pups much. A lot of people that purposefully breed them are not the sharpest tools in the shed or they just plain don't care. 

Most high contents are not vocal, they do not bark. They rely on body language. If you cannot read body language you will have a problem. They communicate a lot with their tail, they have many different tail possitions that mean different things. I can tell by the tail set if the animal is nervous, threatening, relaxed, unsure, pulling rank, etc. Showing teeth is not always a sign of aggression. Ears laid back is not always a sign of fear, a wag does not always = friendly. ETC.

They react very quickly to what they consider a threat or a challenge. You have to pay attention because the only warning they might give is a stiffening of the body a whole whopping 2 seconds before they come at you.

I dealt with a female very high content if not pure that was raised by a woman who should not have had her. She had bitten 4 people before I was hired to work with her. Having her on a DD collar that took me 15 minutes to get on her, simply coming to the end of the leash and it. Not being able to go as far as she wanted and feeling a slight correction just from the pressure she put on the lead as she walked away was enough to provoke a lot of aggression. After she came to she immediately came at me again. It took 35 minutes before she stopped fighting me from that first perceived correction. It was the same fight every time she wanted to do something that I did not want her to. It took 3 weeks just to get her to walk on lead without pulling and she took a chunk out of my thigh and turned my right arm from wrist to elbow purple with a few punctures. 

She was put down at my request because her owner was incapable of controlling her and I would not work with her after the last session that resulted in the two bites. 

This was an animal that was taken to stores and parks and acted "Stable" unless you asked her to do something she didn't feel like doing or intruded on her territory. She was always calm. She had been allowed to live as the dominant member of her one human one animal "pack" and in the end paid the price for human error.

Most of them are not nearly this bad, but if allowed to mature as the higher ranking individual in its territory it will be a problem. Lower content animals are rarely like this, they are usually more nervous than aggressive.


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## Jennifer Marshall (Dec 13, 2007)

Ugh can't edit.

Should read:

"Having her on a DD collar that took me 15 minutes just to get on her, simply coming to the end of the leash and not being able to go as far as she wanted and feeling a slight correction from the pressure she put on the lead as she walked away was enough to provoke a lot of aggression. She came right for my face and got hung for it.

After she came to she immediately came at me again. It took 35 minutes before she stopped fighting me from that first perceived correction. It was the same fight every time she wanted to do something that I did not want her to. It took 3 weeks just to get her to walk on lead without pulling and she took a chunk out of my thigh and turned my right arm from wrist to elbow purple with a few punctures. "


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## Courtney Guthrie (Oct 30, 2007)

I do not think that wolf hybrids have the capacity to be PP trained, not because they're not intelligent but because of their innate behaviors. 

I own a wolf hybrid F2, he is going on 10 years old. He has the face and ear set of a wolf along with the feet and bone mass but not the height(his brother does have that though) BUT he is extremely wolfy in behavior, I have taught him some OB but it was hard, he was a hard animal to work with. I rescued him at 9 months old...from my dad's friend...who got him from the "breeder" a mutual friend. Poor Hobie lived on a 4x4 balcony for the first part of his 6 months with them, then they moved him in a house and expected him to NOT bite the kids when they tried to take his bones and not to destroy things etc. I got him at 9 months old, he didn't know his name....never wore a collar or leash....it took MONTHS AND MONTHS of extremely HARD work before we came to an understanding. He is the only animal I've ever had to choke out, the only one that I've had to defend myself against. That said, after all that work, he can be in public and has no issues, he is great with kids but he does resource guard and I'll eb damned if it was worth losing a digit or limb trying to modify that behavior to a decent place. I CAN take things from him but it is a fight. Since I've had him, we make sure that he knows he is NOT alpha. He lives with my parents at their house because he DOES NOT do change in environments easy. Also, he is safe there, he has grown up there and that is his territory. He and my mom's mastiffX have been together since the latter one was a baby. Hobie is a special animal but definetely not something that I would EVER train for PP or anything of the sort. 

I also, rarely tell people about him or say he's a SibeX because, I never wanted him from the beginning and I'd rather people think he was a mix compared to knowing he's a "cool" wolf hybrid. 

Courtney


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Sort Kind has somthing to do with this 

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3297665...ce-science/ns/technology_and_science-science/


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## Jason Hammel (Aug 13, 2009)

Chris McDonald said:


> Sort Kind has somthing to do with this
> 
> http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3297665...ce-science/ns/technology_and_science-science/


 
I thought this had been going on for quite some time? Since the killed off all the red wolves in that area the coyote population started to take over and when the reintroduced the canadian wolf into that area that this off breeding started to happen..


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