# One Very Good Reason Why You Can Never Fully Trust Your Vet!



## Lynda Myers (Jul 16, 2008)

Ok I know most on here are aware of the relation between vaccines and cancer, autoimmune etc. But whenever I run across the topic it still utterly amazes me. Especially when most vets still push vaccines annually knowing full well how bad they are! Just mind boggling! 

http://www.thedogplace.org/Vaccines/Vet-On-Vaccines-1011-Blake.asp

LOL Don's gonna loves this post!!\\/ And honestly can't say that I can disagree with him about it.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

I love it when a vet tells me something on a forum or in person opposite of what my vet tells me just because they have a college education of so many blah blah years compared to a vet of close to 30 years of large animals, household animals and has seen more working dogs then they care to imagine, they think they know it all and sometimes are over opinionated](*,). Kinda reminds me of a K9 handler that has handle one dog for a couple of years and now thinks they are the master of the universe:twisted:. On that note thanks for the info sharing wasnt aware of that stuff.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

i was hoping this article would be longer and have a lot more beef 

the incidence of vaccine induced fibrosarcomas has been studied using large samples, and i didn't know they were terminal, if that was what he was implying, plus not all rabies vaccines are created equal 

over vaccinations a problem ? ... no brainer and i am definitely not a vet

the only vets (or human docs) i don't trust are the ones who don't like to answer my questions or try to explain something to me by using some analogy that has nothing to do with medicine


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## Kathy Jennings (Feb 7, 2011)

My vet doesn't even support my dogs on a prey model raw diet. What the heck do they think dogs ate until this past century?? He probably is more bummed about losing that annual teeth cleaning business as my dogs now have white teeth.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

I agree with studies to lessen the frequency of vaccines and think many are over the top and they are given too young to animals with immature immune systems.

I agree many vets give too many or give multi-vaccine combos while I would prefer single vaccines and I would space them out some.

I, too, worry about going over the top with vaccines for issues that are relatively minor with a good prognosis if cared for properly.

But we still do, in fact, have rabies in our area and people and animals still do get bitten by rabid wildlife.

Being in my 50s I actually had things like the hard measles (as well as german measles), mumps, chicken pox, and knew kids who were either died or had severe brain damage from the high fever. I knew older kids and had some teachers who were in leg braces due to polio ...you know, there IS a balance.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Harry Keely said:


> I love it when a vet tells me something on a forum or in person opposite of what my vet tells me just because they have a college education of so many blah blah years compared to a vet of close to 30 years of large animals, household animals and has seen more working dogs then they care to imagine, they think they know it all and sometimes are over opinionated](*,).* Kinda reminds me of a K9 handler that has handle one dog for a couple of years and now thinks they are the master of the universe*:twisted:. On that note thanks for the info sharing wasnt aware of that stuff.


No kidding Harry. I have been hearing how old people are stubborn and won't listen to the kids that only think they know it all.


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## mel boschwitz (Apr 23, 2010)

I guess I am lucky. My vet supports decreased use of vaccines. Totally supports a raw fed diet, and limited use of antibiotics and other meds. I do rabies vaccine every 3 years as required by law. Is there any scientific papers that have been published concerning rabies vaccs and tumors at the injection site? Although with as much travelling with my dogs that I do I dont see any way around giving the vaccine, nor do I think we should stop giving it. But I would pay more for a safer vaccine.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Nancy Jocoy said:


> I agree with studies to lessen the frequency of vaccines and think many are over the top and they are given too young to animals with immature immune systems.
> 
> I agree many vets give too many or give multi-vaccine combos while I would prefer single vaccines and I would space them out some.
> 
> ...


Deserves a billboard, IMO! Every paragraph!


The reason we don't live in a world of polio, smallpox, tetanus, diphtheria, canine distemper and parvo, and much 
more ..... vaccines.

Have we gone nuts with them and overused them? You bet.

But saying "you can never trust your vet because s/he 'pushes' vaccines" is ignoring a major chunk of human and canine history and the virtual eradication of terrible diseases ..... with vaccines.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Nancy Jocoy said:


> ... Being in my 50s I actually had things like the hard measles (as well as german measles), mumps, chicken pox, and knew kids who were either died or had severe brain damage from the high fever. I knew older kids and had some teachers who were in leg braces due to polio ...you know, there IS a balance.


And I contracted paralytic polio when I was a little kid, during one of the epidemics of the late 50s, just as the Salk vaccine was being administered (pre-Sabin).

Every summer was a time of parental panic. Every hospital had a polio wing. Many died, many others were permanently crippled. People with a type of polio, mainly kids and young adults, lived in Drinker respirators ("iron lungs"). Ever see photos of rows and rows and rows of iron lungs in action in a polio wing?

And compared to some of the other vaccine-eradicated diseases, poliomyelitis was a treat.


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## Skip Morgart (Dec 19, 2008)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Deserves a billboard, IMO! Every paragraph!
> 
> 
> The reason we don't live in a world of polio, smallpox, tetanus, diphtheria, canine distemper and parvo, and much
> ...


I agree. There needs to be a balance. To me, my opinion, any vets office is a BUSINESS that also has to keep money coming in to keep the doors open, just like any business. They are not ran by independently wealthy philanthropists that are doing it just for the common good. That doesn't make all vets bad or totally untrustworthy. I just think nowadays it's smart for all of us to do a little research on our own to find out what we also feel is good and safe and appropriate for our dogs. There are many serious studies to show some medicines are way over prescribed, and many dogs' systems can not handle it, and many are having serious consequences. Drug companies are also in business to make money. Just because drugs are being administered within the amounts suggested by drug companies and vets, it doesn't meant there aren't negative consequences. Hell, even the drugs advertised on TV for US have some serious disclaimers (I saw this one this morning.."if you have thoughts of suicide, discontinue the medication immediately")...so, I just believe we all need to do some homework and not just take anybody's advice blindly.


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## Skip Morgart (Dec 19, 2008)

also... Personally, it doesn't matter to me how many years of "experience" any vet (or K9 "handler", "trainer", or "breeder") has had. Years and years of doing something does not blindly impress me. Some are really good, and some are really bad. I think we all have a responsibility nowadays (with all the data out there) to be a little bit more aware of what the possible consequences are with what we do with our dogs, and who is giving good advice.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Kathy Jennings said:


> My vet doesn't even support my dogs on a prey model raw diet. What the heck do they think dogs ate until this past century?? He probably is more bummed about losing that annual teeth cleaning business as my dogs now have white teeth.


If you feel that way about your vet, perhaps it's time to find a new vet.



mel boschwitz said:


> I guess I am lucky.


I don't think you are lucky, I just think you took the time to find a vet that is on the same "wavelength" as you. My vet is like this, which is one of the reason's he's my vet 

I agree with the idea of balance. Vaccines have done tremendous amounts of good, but like anything, if abused can do harm. Heck even to much water can actually harm you. It's up to the owners to be responsible and actually do the research, then decide what they are comfortable with.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Skip Morgart said:


> Years and years of doing something does not blindly impress me. Some are really good, and some are really bad. I think we all have a responsibility nowadays (with all the data out there) to be a little bit more aware of what the possible consequences are with what we do with our dogs, and who is giving good advice.


Big ditto!


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> No kidding Harry. I have been hearing how old people are stubborn and won't listen to the kids that only think they know it all.


 
I have been hearing how old people smell like diapers and moth balls.


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

The vaccine debate is one everyone needs to invesigate themselfs and make a judgement call on, both with their dogs and children.
There are side effects including up to death, there has been cancer virus's contained in the vaccines such as the SV40 virus, some certain newer vaccines use the body parts of aborted human babies to make them for example.
It is a massive subject and there are good and bad on each side. 
But people who blindly line up their children without looking into all the facts, not just the marketing given by their doctors, do themselfs a disservice. The biggest thing I took from my research was just how much the Government was lying by ommission and not been honest with their information. I found as much spin by both the anti vaccination crowd and the government and medical profession.


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Being someone who has spent alot of time with my children in hospital and seeing and hearing different things i think you would be nuts not to vaccinate your children.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

I did delay and space out my kids vaccinations and they only got the required ones. I figured I nursed both my kids for a year so they benefited from my own immunity and they were not in any kind of day care setting until three when they started half days. [they grew up just fine and social, btw]

Of course my generation all got smallpox vaccine which was / is a major one for issues/side effects.

When I went back to school though for a graduate degree they tried to force me to have a measles vaccine and I had to pay for titers because I did not see the point of revaccinating and had heard one of those was problematic for a person who had already had the measles. 

FWIW I clearly remember mom making me watch Mr Ed with sunglasses on as she thought the black and white TV might blind me


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Nancy Jocoy said:


> I did delay and space out my kids vaccinations and they only got the required ones. I figured I nursed both my kids for a year so they benefited from my own immunity and they were not in any kind of day care setting until three when they started half days. [they grew up just fine and social, btw]
> 
> Of course my generation all got smallpox vaccine which was / is a major one for issues/side effects.
> 
> ...


Children over here that are not vaccinated can be ommitted from certain schools etc(like your dog not getting in to boarding lol) If you speak to medical practioners who do this all there life and the nurses who do most of the vaccinating they never see much more then a fever or a child slightly off for a day or so.So in saying that its very obvious they do have an affect on the children and there body feels it.I know someones will probably say i dont know what im talking about but the numbers of lifes saved or helped is immense through these vaccines.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Well, clearly we shouldn't have to vaccinate because rabies is not a problem in this country. 

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/01/30/us-rabies-massachusetts-idUSTRE80T1W220120130

I posted my vaccine protocols just a few weeks ago, so that's basically my position and not of one who just tries to hawk a bunch of supplements and herbs that have not been tested.* 



*I say this as a card carrying member of the American Holistic Veterinary Medical Association, so there! :mrgreen:


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

brad robert said:


> Children over here that are not vaccinated can be ommitted from certain schools etc(like your dog not getting in to boarding lol) If you speak to medical practioners who do this all there life and the nurses who do most of the vaccinating they never see much more then a fever or a child slightly off for a day or so.So in saying that its very obvious they do have an affect on the children and there body feels it.I know someones will probably say i dont know what im talking about but the numbers of lifes saved or helped is immense through these vaccines.


Unfortunatly there are a number of people who have very bad reactions from vaccinations. Children have died and been brain damaged by them. When you actually look into it you find that it isnt as safe as you are told. The reality is people vaccinate their children because they try to protect them and by the exact same token people who dont vaccinate are also trying to protect their children. People should do their own research athen make their decison.


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## Skip Morgart (Dec 19, 2008)

The laws dictate the rabies vaccine schedules...that we have to do...although there are some areas that are changing the mandated frequencies. I'm basically talking about all the other vaccines and meds. Titers have proven to be very accurate in showing whether other vaccines are really necessary.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

I like titers and I encourage clients to get titers (though a $70 blood test versus $18 vaccination and of course, people pick the vaccine, argh...). That being said, a high titer doesn't necessarily protect you from disease and a low titer doesn't necessarily say you will get the disease. Titers measure just one aspect of the immune system.


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## Skip Morgart (Dec 19, 2008)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> I like titers and I encourage clients to get titers (though a $70 blood test versus $18 vaccination and of course, people pick the vaccine, argh...). That being said, a high titer doesn't necessarily protect you from disease and a low titer doesn't necessarily say you will get the disease. Titers measure just one aspect of the immune system.



A titer measures the strength of the drug still in the system, right? Aren't there tested numbers for suggested safe ranges? A high titer should show protection that would be within a close same range as a reasonably recent inoculation right, or at least be at the upper end of the suggested range. I know there are no absolute guarantees in anything, but personally I am very encouraged on the data I have read on titers.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> That being said, a high titer doesn't necessarily protect you from disease and a low titer doesn't necessarily say you will get the disease. Titers measure just one aspect of the immune system.


And a vacination guarantees what? You are guaranteed not to get a disease?....or just less likely?


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## Lynda Myers (Jul 16, 2008)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Deserves a billboard, IMO! Every paragraph!
> 
> 
> The reason we don't live in a world of polio, smallpox, tetanus, diphtheria, canine distemper and parvo, and much
> ...


Connie you missed what I said about pushing vaccines. Because I said *ANNUAL* vaccines. I am definitely for running a puppy through the puppy series. But to Dr. Schultz says there not necessary after the core set is given as a pup! Of course everyone should obey the law regarding Rabies until which time the laws are changed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xC--bGthNN8


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Lynda Myers said:


> Connie you missed what I said about pushing vaccines. Because I said *ANNUAL* vaccines. I am definitely for running a puppy through the puppy series. But to Dr. Schultz says there not necessary after the core set is given as a pup! Of course everyone should obey the law regarding Rabies until which time the laws are changed.


Gotcha. 

I should have read your post more carefully. My response was to the URL in the first post. I've read several of Dr. Blake's articles (the author of the article linked to in the O.P.); his opinion about vaccines includes that "the rabies vaccine should be removed from the market place."

Drs. Schultz and Dodds are (IMO) far more balanced in their viewpoints and recommendations.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Skip Morgart said:


> ... I know there are no absolute guarantees in anything, but personally I am very encouraged on the data I have read on titers.



You've probably seen Christie Keith's web pages about vax, but maybe not everyone has. I like the clear explanations that detail what was posted above about titers measuring _"one aspect of the immune system."_

http://www.caberfeidh.com/CanineTiters.htm


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Christopher Jones said:


> Unfortunatly there are a number of people who have very bad reactions from vaccinations. Children have died and been brain damaged by them. When you actually look into it you find that it isnt as safe as you are told. The reality is people vaccinate their children because they try to protect them and by the exact same token people who dont vaccinate are also trying to protect their children. People should do their own research athen make their decison.


Definately agree with you there Chris.

Research has its own problems drug companies support some research then other times doctors or researchers are swayed by there own opinions its a very tricky area.

Recently having done an enourmous amount of medical research for my children and looking at peer reviewed journals ,double blind studies there is a lot of bias in study work some has merit but then again can be pulled apart by another doctor with his own views and objectives.

Tricky ground with a ton of grey area.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Skip Morgart said:


> A titer measures the strength of the drug still in the system, right? Aren't there tested numbers for suggested safe ranges? A high titer should show protection that would be within a close same range as a reasonably recent inoculation right, or at least be at the upper end of the suggested range. I know there are no absolute guarantees in anything, but personally I am very encouraged on the data I have read on titers.


Actually no, that's not what a titer measures. This is sometimes the problem with these articles because it doesn't really explain what a titer is and what it's not. I explain it in the definitions section on my vaccine protocol here:

http://www.rightathomevetcare.com/vaccines.html

But titers are not really absolute things, unfortunately. Trust me, I REALLY wish it was that cut and dry, but they aren't. That's also why for certain diseases, like leptospirosis, they do not have an established titer for what *should* be protective or not. It is so far too unpredictable.


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## Kristi Siggers (May 27, 2009)

I only get the mandatory ones and try to space everything out. I do believe most vaccines are for the best; I just don't believe they need to be updated every yr. 
Rabies is still very much a threat in my county. In 2011 our confirmed rabie cases more then doubled 53. Most with in my town and the 2 neighboring towns, so that is one I stick to the law with; every 3 yrs here.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

fwiw, Japan now requires rabies titers certified by "accredited" international facilities for entry here and you must have had two vaccines given prior to the titer, which pretty much kills any way to buy a young pup from outside the country. and i don't think they aren't doing it to protect Ja breeders. Not all types of rabies vaccines are authorized either so your choices are limited, and i think, but am not sure, that live and maybe modified live vaccines are illegal here...all in all it's a real gauntlet if you want to import a young pup :-(
- I have done a lot of net research on titers and the more i do the more it looks like you can use the data to prove either side of the argument ... but as it has been pointed out, i agree titers are definitely not the all telling "gold standard" some people think they are.
- they might tell you "something" that exists, but if they don't tell you what you NEED to know, why spend the money for them ? 
- btw, if you don't report the dog dead you will keep getting letters forever telling you to vaccinate, but if you decide your dog has had enuff, all it really prevents you from doing is shipping it out or getting your card to enter a dog park 
- and of course you would have a big problem if your dog bit someone and u couldn't produce an current shot record


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

I grew up in Central Africa in the sixties, fortunately I was born post polio vaccs, but went to school with older kids that were crippled by it. We were all vaccinated with in an inch of our lives for some of the real nasties, we were vacced for smallpox, polio etc although vaccs for measles etc werent around and we all got measles and kids did die or end up braindamaged from measles All our animals were done annually for things like horse sickness, rabies and other things besides. I think we all had a much greater chance of dying from the diseases than from vaccinations. Thousands of african children did die from lack of vaccinations, particularly back then before widespread immunisation was available. 

So having had plenty of vaccs of all descriptions in my life I cant say I get too worked up about the whole thing. The smallpox vacc never left the usual mark on me so every new school I went to which were numerous I had to be re vacced before I could attend. Then there was yellow fever, diptheria, typhoid and all sorts that my memory is sketchy on. I remember school being closed with an outbreak of scarlet fever once in the late sixties.

These days my dogs get the once every 3 years vacc and I do them for kennel cough only if I am having to put them into kennels as it is required. We dont have rabies over here in Australia thank goodness. But we have had quite a few animals, dogs and horses in Africa that recieved many vaccinations and I cant remember any problems. 

All though I dont doubt they exist. I guess I grew up in an environment where vaccinations were mandatory if you wanted good odds to survive past childhood. Animals from memory were done annually for all sorts of weird things and seemed to do okay


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## Chris Jones II (Mar 20, 2011)

Don Turnipseed said:


> No kidding Harry. I have been hearing how old people are stubborn and won't listen to the kids that only think they know it all.


and some old people are just shit stupid.


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