# Should I be concerned?



## Patrick Murray (Mar 27, 2006)

My new pup, Fiona, is now about 4.5 months old. It's my understanding that she comes from excellent working lines. In fact Daryl Ehret has a littermate. 

Anyway, we really like Fiona for many reasons. One minor concern I have is that she's not bite-crazy on these various puppy tugs I purchased. However, for what this is worth, she is constantly playing with my 8 year-old GSD male PPD, Jake, by grabbing a hold of this mane of hair he has around his neck (like a lion, lol) and she won't freaking let go! It's kinda comical but after a while I start to feel a little sorry for Jake. He's been extraordinarily tolerant of her although he has drawn the line with her a couple of times. 

She does show some aggression. There have been a couple times when our doorbell rang and my two older dogs started barking and she went into an "alert" stance (ears perked, tail up, inquisitive look) and gave a little growl and then went to the door to see what was going on. Both times it was a family member who frequently comes over and so he is well acquainted with my dogs. 

Now and then I give all the dogs a bone. Being that Fiona is the smallest of the three she takes the longest to consume her bone. Recently, Jake had finished his and approached her while she still had the bone. When Jake was about 5 feet away she curled her lip and let out a blood-curdling growl that sent shivers up MY back! I loved it! 

But getting back to the biting the tug, she's just not that into it. Maybe it's because of her puppy teeth or whatever, I don't really know. I'm not sweating it because I know she's young and I'm in no hurry for her to grow up. I don't have any doubt that she's going to be a serious bitch. It's just that I envisioned this little demon dog biting the crap out of the tug and never letting go like I've seen on some of the youtube vids and so forth. She has no problem biting on me and I actually like that she does as I want her to know what a real arm and hand feel like. Heck, I'm going to transition her to my leg too but no crotch bites, thank you very much. 

Any thoughts, good or bad? Thanks in advance.

P.S. Here is her pedigree: http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/537961.html


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Some of the Czech lines take a while to spark up and mature some what slowly not sure this is the case but could be. 
One thing I would consider is keeping the time spent with the other dog to a minimum. Especially when you want to interact with the pup. Make some special time alone with your pup a great time is when you get up in the morning or when you get home from work. The pup is all happy and exited to see you. Keep you play sessions short and exiting but quit before the pup gets board. Be careful if the pup is teething. Have fun.


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

Also remember she is teething at this age.

GSD's on the whole are slow to mature. I think that a GSD devil puppy is rare. They bite, but they really take a year to begin showing what they are made of.

I am thinking the GSD's I have now will possibly be my last GSD's. I love my dogs to death, but from a working perspective, I get along better with the nuttier breeds that show more working potential when they are younger. Going from a Dutchie to a GSD was a difficult transition that's for sure. But, I also don't have kids, so I don't have the concern of having such a reactive dog around a small child that others might have.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

new here but thought I'd write to tell you about my dog.

My elder GSD *did* like to tug before teething, he even held on for dear life to my husband's jeans whilst he was walking. He would tug on rags but wasn't fond of a bite roll and at 7 months wouldn't take it from me if I held it to my stomach. I hung a bite roll on a rope up on a hook for him and this he loved. I played with him a lot, did eye contact and more or less ignored the tugging.

I took him for his first biting lesson at 9 months - what a picture - ears back, jumping around me like a kangaroo - but then I stood in the middle of the ring and the helper came towards us - I was literally blown off my feet and the helper changed from a bite arm cushion to a young dog sleeve and, although he's the breeder, he was astonished at this lad's confidence. He also has quite a bit of aggression but not towards me, even in schutzdienst.

Gillian


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

I agree with Mike that 'one-on-one' time is important, but I don't make a point to keep the dog's separated often. With Fionas' littermate, I initially kept a very watchful eye, so that temperaments didn't elevate out of control, and believe that because of this, she is more stable around other dogs than she would otherwise be. If Jake doesn't enjoy her company and interact with her as aggressively in play, it might be a good idea to separate them.

I wouldn't worry about bitework yet, Gabi is where Fiona is, and we have focused on a bit of obedience instead, about 10-15 min. per day. Sits, downs, and heeling with food. Gabi is very possessive of food and toy also.

I had one particular late-bloomer in tugwork, that turned out to have phenomenal drive appear at 8 months old, "fight" drive to be proud of. That kind of late maturity doesn't bother me a bit, as long as I'm not waiting past 18 months to see all the requirements for work. I consider each pup on a case-by-case basis, somewhat intuitively deciding what our focus should be at the time.

It seems many pups from this litter have captured the "alpha" temperament of the dam, and I think that will translate into some strong protection drives later. I expect we will both be pleased with what's revealed later on.


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## Lynsey Fuegner (Apr 11, 2007)

here's a question for the Czech dog owners (or those with experience) have you ever had an instance where prior to teething the pup is all about you, wanting to play, excited about obedience, etc. and then around 15 weeks or so, and into the start of teething, the dog suddenly deciding that you do not exist and that he doesn't need you? Mauser was doing great with obedience! Then suddenly I don't exist and when we try to do obedience he would rather do anything else...and when I say obedience I am not talking very strict work or anything, it's mostly play with food and tug rewards (though we've backed off the tug work until he is through teething) He never showed any issue with playing with the helper, but suddenly I am pretty much worthless to him.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Lynsey Fuegner said:


> here's a question for the Czech dog owners (or those with experience) have you ever had an instance where prior to teething the pup is all about you, wanting to play, excited about obedience, etc. and then around 15 weeks or so, and into the start of teething, the dog suddenly deciding that you do not exist and that he doesn't need you? Mauser was doing great with obedience! Then suddenly I don't exist and when we try to do obedience he would rather do anything else...and when I say obedience I am not talking very strict work or anything, it's mostly play with food and tug rewards (though we've backed off the tug work until he is through teething) He never showed any issue with playing with the helper, but suddenly I am pretty much worthless to him.


I've had Czech and DDR lines dogs and had few issues. They can be slow to mature. Why are you doing obedience at 15 weeks? I do very little and around 4-6 months almost none. Too many isses: first heat, body changes, teething, the 'mones. If you have a great bond early, it should stay all the way. Sounds like a growth period brain freeze.


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

sounds like my frickin teenagers to me--maybe just look at it as a lesson for the future lynsey, if you ever have the joy and pleasure of human teenagers in your life....

the lesson: be patient, they DO get over it and figure out that you MIGHT know a little about something...

and i think mike may be right: GSD are slower to mature vs the mals/dutchies. i know that for a while (til he was, IDK, about 10 mo old), i was starting to think that Brix would never make even a watchdog. by the time he was 18 mo old, well, nothing gets past him now


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

Lynsey, something I have noticed with just about all pups is that when they are tiny pocket-sized dogs they are in a stage where they seem very dependant. They want to be around you, they can be off leash in an unfenced area and you dont have to worry about them running off. When they learn their name they come barreling at you at top speed. Right around 4 months old they start to become more independant, start to explore, start to play keepaway, stop rushing you with enthusiasm etc. Then right around 10-12 months old the enthusiasm to be with you starts to return.

I dont bother doing OB till they are past all that crap.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Howard Gaines III said:


> I've had Czech and DDR lines dogs and had few issues. They can be slow to mature. Why are you doing obedience at 15 weeks? I do very little and around 4-6 months almost none. Too many isses: first heat, body changes, teething, the 'mones. If you have a great bond early, it should stay all the way. Sounds like a growth period brain freeze.


 
Not to answer for Lynsey but we belong to the same club. ALL our training, obedience and bite work, is entirely motivational. No corrections! If the pup isn't having fun we're doing something wrong. 
The teething affects different dogs differently. My older GSD had no issues. My 11 month old pup was a disaster while he was teething. It's all looked at in our training.
Along with Maus's teething, I also agree with the "growth period brain freeze". 
This is/will be a fantastic pup/dog! :wink:


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## Lynsey Fuegner (Apr 11, 2007)

Thanks for the support all, I really appreciate it and totally didn't mean to steal the thunder of this thread  



Howard Gaines III said:


> I've had Czech and DDR lines dogs and had few issues. They can be slow to mature. Why are you doing obedience at 15 weeks? I do very little and around 4-6 months almost none. Too many isses: first heat, body changes, teething, the 'mones. If you have a great bond early, it should stay all the way. Sounds like a growth period brain freeze.


As Bob said below, our Obedience is purely motivational and more of a game rather than anything else, we try to show them how much fun obedience is. I thought I had a great bond but now the little turd just does his own thing...though it's good to hear ut's probably a phase...



Mike Schoonbrood said:


> Lynsey, something I have noticed with just about all pups is that when they are tiny pocket-sized dogs they are in a stage where they seem very dependant. They want to be around you, they can be off leash in an unfenced area and you dont have to worry about them running off. When they learn their name they come barreling at you at top speed. Right around 4 months old they start to become more independant, start to explore, start to play keepaway, stop rushing you with enthusiasm etc. Then right around 10-12 months old the enthusiasm to be with you starts to return.
> 
> I dont bother doing OB till they are past all that crap.


Thanks Mike, that pretty much is Maus to a tea...I guess the extreme neediness in the beginning really gets you spoiled before reality sets in and their confidence sets in :-? though I can't really complain about a confident dog. It makes me feel better to hear the enthusiasm will return.

and thanks Bob for the support  it always takes me a while to reply to a thread and I never mind an extra voice to help answer things :wink:


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## Lyn Chen (Jun 19, 2006)

GSDs ARE slow...I find them well worth the wait though.


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## Derek Kalmar (Apr 8, 2008)

I agree with the others that recommend you seperate the pup when you want to work/play with Fionna. Sometimes a pup would rather focus and play with another dog instead of a tug. It is just another distraction. I would watch it while the pup is teething, but consider using a flirt pole with a leather rag or a tug on the end. Build the dogs prey drive, work on the fight and grip, and have fun.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Some puppies are slow to develop; there are things you can do along the way to maximize her drive and trainability.

Keep her separated from other dogs. If she fulfils her pack and play drives in doggie play, she won't want to play (train) with you.

Get the Leerburg drive building DVD. Worth every penny. It's hard work with a distractable or medium drive dog, but worth the work. It will point out the handler errors that can make a dog appear to have low drive. It shows how to develop drive.

Teething = no tugging, but lots of teasing and frustration with a rag or tug.

Keep it short - if she loses interest you screwed up and played too long. Keep a timer and limit play - no matter how well she does.

Tie her out (on a harness) and play tug or fetch with another dog. Put the other dog up and give her a chance to play. When she loses interest, immediately get out the other dog and agitate her again by training the other dog. 

At 3 - 10 months my pup showed NOTHING. But she had it before, she's from good lines, so I was patient with her. Now at 11 months her drive is starting to come out and holy crap - watch out! She's not a shepherd but another breed known for maturing slowly.

Be careful with puppy aggression. More often then not, it is a sign of nerves or dominance - neither of which should be encouraged with puppies. Observe, don't encourage.


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

> Keep her separated from other dogs. If she fulfils her pack and play drives in doggie play, she won't want to play (train) with you.


I've read similar advice from several sources, but it has never been my personal experience. It seems it would be easier to teach focus and restraint to a dog with naturally strong drives, than to "build" drive. My dogs that burn the most energy in frequent aggressive play with each other, still maintain a great desire to focus and interact with their handler.

As Derek recommends, the flirt pole is a great idea. I will soon be introducing Gabi to it myself. I think there's a couple threads on this forum discussing flirt pole use, or you can PM for pointers.


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