# Started implementing some aversives into training.



## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

So I went to the Edgar Scherkl seminar and my main focus was to see how he implements the use of aversives. I think his program was well thought out (of course, 4 time world champion has to know a thing or two about dog training). 

First. He has come to the same conclusion B.F. Skinner did, as well what I suspected.... +p does not work very well. He said if it did work, it was just mislabeled by the handler and was seen by the dog as -R. He thought it was very important to see the training through the eyes of the dog. I guess you could call this reading the dog. Seeing what they see.

He also thought that when a trainer starts thinking in terms how to punish a behavior, they cannot think about how to motivate the dog to do the correct behavior.

He thought Aversives can be applied in -R at mild levels and the handler needs to have paitience to wait the dog out to make the decision to do the work. He taught everything with +r. He did not reward close in time to behaviors, he made them hold them for some time. then when they were perfect as they could be. He implemented his -R to increase speed. He thought that rewarding to close to behaviors, the dog paired the execution of behaviors with access to the reward...thus making them a bit a nutty right after executing the behavior. 

So, he worked with me on implementing some -r on my dog for simple sits, downs and stands. At first the dog was responsive. But soon protested in the form of freezing up. I think the dog did not really understand the training and was a miss on what to do. But Edgar encouraged me to keep doing it, that he has seen this in dogs before...and that in all the dogs he has trained that once they learn that behavior is what removes the aversive the dog would be fine. And sure enough one more session at home. He was on board.

Another thing he thought was important. Was not rewarding a dog who is not happy. Like my dog, he said no rewards till his moods come up. And sure enough, once he figured it out, tail wagging.

So, I have found a few pit falls the dog can learn through this. One they can confuse the start of the aversive as the actual command. So, I started with small leash pressure and telling the dog to not move till I said the command to move. This has seemed to work. So far I have only done everything on a fursaver. I start leash pressure, wait to keep the dog in the start behavior. Say command, and the minute the dog begins the behavior I release. 

I have noticed a little more discpline in the dogs additude. 

I think I now have a start to a good education on implementing aversives....at least a starting point to experiment with. So, I will keep experimenting and see what comes of it. 

Just some other points Edgar said: He believed it's important to have a socially stable dog, he thought that handler aggressive dogs may not have good aggression in the end. He thought that handler aggressive or socially aggressive dogs think from fear, not courage.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

James,

Weren't you preaching positive only a week ago?


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Sounds like a seminar I'd like to see!


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

What was the focal point of this seminar? What you recap sounds interesting. Some video to accompany that would have been helpful as I have some difficulty following the P/R +/- aspects in a training discussion. I should just put up a job aide on my monitor to remind myself. Seems I lose out on the important points of these discussions because I haven't taken the time to remember what each means.


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## Laura Bollschweiler (Apr 25, 2008)

Nicole Stark said:


> What was the focal point of this seminar? What you recap sounds interesting. Some video to accompany that would have been helpful as I have some difficulty following the P/R +/- aspects in a training discussion. I should just put up a job aide on my monitor to remind myself. Seems I lose out on the important points of these discussions because I haven't taken the time to remember what each means.


 
And I thought I was the only one!! Looks too much like math to me. 

Laura


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

James Downey said:


> So I went to the Edgar Scherkl seminar and my main focus was to see how he implements the use of aversives. I think his program was well thought out (of course, 4 time world champion has to know a thing or two about dog training).
> 
> First. He has come to the same conclusion B.F. Skinner did, as well what I suspected.... +p does not work very well. He said if it did work, it was just mislabeled by the handler and was seen by the dog as -R. He thought it was very important to see the training through the eyes of the dog. I guess you could call this reading the dog. Seeing what they see.
> 
> ...


 
My question is WHY you felt the need to add the aversive? What doyou mean the dog had more discipline? I don't get the "nutty" after executing the behavior. I've never been one for the idea that the release behavior becomes a part of the performance especially since I'm in control of it. One of the things you never hear is how to use +r to build speed or the use of variable reinforcement o build duration. 

T


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Laura Bollschweiler said:


> And I thought I was the only one!! Looks too much like math to me.
> 
> Laura


YES! I almost wrote just that but was a little embarrassed by it (felt a bit like a simpleton) and just decided to not say it. But yes, when I read it it's like looking at numbers, which I don't relate to so easily. But if I can see it then I have a mental image of what these R/Ps look like.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I think it was Joby that receintly posted a chart on the +P stuff. If it were numbers then I'm not allowed to make any sort of reply. My basic math skills are - skills.  8-[


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Hey Bob maybe Laura is a lefty too? And you are right, I think he did but I don't have my printer connected to my PC at the moment. James, I still think your story was interesting.


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> My question is WHY you felt the need to add the aversive? What doyou mean the dog had more discipline? I don't get the "nutty" after executing the behavior. I've never been one for the idea that the release behavior becomes a part of the performance especially since I'm in control of it. One of the things you never hear is how to use +r to build speed or the use of variable reinforcement o build duration.
> 
> T


I cant speak for James but i have seen this nutty behaviour with my dog by rewarding quickly.Now at first it worked well because she paired the behaviour to the reward but by continuing to reward quickly the dogs level of anticipation stopped it from being as correct as it should have been so she is extremely fast but accuracy suffered and a sort of anxious driven "nutty" attitude came with it e.g when the dog flips finish she would sometimes not put her ass down propperly or drop completely and as the handler you cant always see this like an observer can and it wasnt till i was told your dog is anticapating the reward immediately and not being accurate because she is so amped by the reward.As i said i could be ten miles from what james is getting at but this is what i have seen.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

I thought we just had a loooong discussion about this kind of thing, recently and you said that a dog cannot tell the difference between a -R and +P or something like that. and were against this type of thing?

now that you went to another seminar it is ok again?

was any of this done with an ecollar at the seminar or just collars and leashes?

This sounds very similar in theory to the nepopo type things, and the same methods that 3-4 other ecolar gurus use, except without the ecollar, same principles though...

I basically said the same thing, I use it for speed...just with an ecollar, and you wanted to argue it up and down..

anyhow, glad you are onto it again, should get good results from it...

as far as his theories on socially aggressive dogs, what he said can be true, or it can be not true, depending on the dogs. but overall an informative post...thanks


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## Ariel Peldunas (Oct 18, 2008)

Interesting, James. I am also curious why you decided implementing aversives/-R into your training would be beneficial. 

Also, you mentioned Edgar recommends waiting until the behavior is perfect and the dog's attitude is positive before rewarding. Does he implement this immediately or wait until the behavior is shaped and then start expecting more perfection?

Finally, do you feel your dog interprets leash pressure on the fur saver as an aversive or is it just a matter of the dog learning to go with leash pressure rather than initiate an opposition reflex?


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

brad robert said:


> I cant speak for James but i have seen this nutty behaviour with my dog by rewarding quickly.Now at first it worked well because she paired the behaviour to the reward but by continuing to reward quickly the dogs level of anticipation stopped it from being as correct as it should have been so she is extremely fast but accuracy suffered and a sort of anxious driven "nutty" attitude came with it e.g when the dog flips finish she would sometimes not put her ass down propperly or drop completely and as the handler you cant always see this like an observer can and it wasnt till i was told your dog is anticapating the reward immediately and not being accurate because she is so amped by the reward.As i said i could be ten miles from what james is getting at but this is what i have seen.


One of the things I think Steve Pettit [RWDC] emphasized is not cueing the reward with body language and counting a few seconds before marking the behavior. Very early I don't keep the reward on my body. I mark the behavior and we go to the reward. So really you have to be careful WHAT you mark. If you want butt on the ground, you don't mark until the butt is on the ground. It almost seems if you guys are marking or rewarding undesired behaviors. So are you guys marking behaviors, then rewarding or just popping out the reward when the dog performs the behavior? I keep thinking I'm missing something in this. 


T


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)




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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

Pressure is released as soon as the dog starts the behavior that is intended..dog learns how to turn off leash pressure...


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


>


 
Alllllll together now. Nice graphic.

T


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

+1 thanks T....

James is now validating the very same principles I put forth and was thought to be crazy for, by some, but I guess a seminar by someone famous can do those things..


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

James i also thought ellis said the leash training like you say is escape training and is the same as e collar work the dog is escaping pressure??


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> One of the things I think Steve Pettit [RWDC] emphasized is not cueing the reward with body language and counting a few seconds before marking the behavior. Very early I don't keep the reward on my body. I mark the behavior and we go to the reward. So really you have to be careful WHAT you mark. If you want butt on the ground, you don't mark until the butt is on the ground. It almost seems if you guys are marking or rewarding undesired behaviors. So are you guys marking behaviors, then rewarding or just popping out the reward when the dog performs the behavior? I keep thinking I'm missing something in this.
> 
> 
> T


Good points body language is very important.But when i have a behaviour down then start to really amp it with drive it seems easy for the dog to loose its head and get sloppy even though it knows what brings the reward.But yes could be a marker issue and marking the wrong thing to often without even realising it


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> My question is WHY you felt the need to add the aversive? What doyou mean the dog had more discipline? I don't get the "nutty" after executing the behavior. I've never been one for the idea that the release behavior becomes a part of the performance especially since I'm in control of it. One of the things you never hear is how to use +r to build speed or the use of variable reinforcement o build duration.
> 
> T


I don't feel the need to do it. But I have the soundness of mind to give it a try. And Edgar showed a way to do it such a manner that I felt the risk was minimal. 

The dog seemed to be much calmer. Not so fidgity. It's not like the dog was out of control waiting for the click. But there was a smidgon of the dog being a little restless in the behavior. Now I see a dog slightly more poised. 

And he talked about variable reward schedules, rate of reward, and the use of +R to build speed. He did not think it worked. He said once you go to build duration of time...you will lose the speed.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Nicole Stark said:


> What was the focal point of this seminar? What you recap sounds interesting. Some video to accompany that would have been helpful as I have some difficulty following the P/R +/- aspects in a training discussion. I should just put up a job aide on my monitor to remind myself. Seems I lose out on the important points of these discussions because I haven't taken the time to remember what each means.


IPO....

I refrain from filming at seminars and showing it to others...first, some trainers do not allow filming. Second, no offense, but If I had to pay...I am not giving it away.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

James Downey said:


> IPO....
> 
> Second, no offense, but If I had to pay...I am not giving it away.


Ahem..... well, you kinda just did. Besides, and certainly no offense intended to you either, but when you do a bit of an about face from one week to the next I doubt all that many people are willing to give what you have to say much credence anyway. Especially when you were essentially already told this by several other people. :???:

For some reason this quote came to mind:

“You can easily judge the character of a man by how he treats those who can do nothing for him.”


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Ariel Peldunas said:


> Interesting, James. I am also curious why you decided implementing aversives/-R into your training would be beneficial.
> 
> Also, you mentioned Edgar recommends waiting until the behavior is perfect and the dog's attitude is positive before rewarding. Does he implement this immediately or wait until the behavior is shaped and then start expecting more perfection?
> 
> Finally, do you feel your dog interprets leash pressure on the fur saver as an aversive or is it just a matter of the dog learning to go with leash pressure rather than initiate an opposition reflex?


He teaches everything with food +r....Like most people, except the out in protection. He said he does that with -R right away. So with teaching, of course the dog's mood is up. he does some luring with the food. he also will do some mild proofing, with trying provoke the dog to break position after the dog is fluent in making the behavior happen ..and at first pairs luring with the -R. But when he intiates the -r he puts pressure on the collar, and says a command the dog already knows. initiates the lure (the -r, command and lure all happen together) ...then when the dog begins the manuever he releases the pressure on the collar. the dog is not following or pushing into oppsitional reflex. If the dog does nothing, he waits....and waits. tilll the dog moves into position before releasing the pressure.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Thomas Barriano said:


> James,
> 
> Weren't you preaching positive only a week ago?


No,


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

James Downey said:


> He did not think it worked. He said once you go to build duration of time...you will lose the speed.


 I guess it depends on what behavior and what rate you build it. I can see this happening more with distance if you go to far to fast than duration and you have to keep mixing it up so the dog doesn't anticipate either. I may heel two steps or 25 and somewhere in between. 

T


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Nicole Stark said:


> Ahem..... well, you kinda just did. Besides, and certainly no offense intended to you either, but when you do a bit of an about face from one week to the next I doubt all that many people are willing to give what you have to say much credence anyway. Especially when you were essentially already told this by several other people. :???:
> 
> For some reason this quote came to mind:
> 
> “You can easily judge the character of a man by how he treats those who can do nothing for him.”


I was talking about film..,

You get critized about what you think when you're willing try things you don't agree with or think that won't work. It took every fiber in my being to pull the collars off my dogs 4 years ago, and it took every fiber in my being to put one on. People sometimes just because you do something all of sudden your endorsing it. I was simply sharing what the man said and a few experiments by me. 

So I am not all in yet. 

I think what people are doing right now on this thread is a little enthusastic, that is by taking the fact that I used some aversive on my dog that all of sudden it validates what they said, or I am doing an about face and endorsing the training. I simply am trying something folks, thought I'd share with you. I appreciate all of your concern on my dog training philosphy and it's current state. But stand by, I will be sure to fill everyone in when I come to some more substantial conclusion. So there is no cofusion what the word validates and about turn is being in refernce too. I have gotten the dog to sit, down and stand using this....

And just to clarify something about crediability, There's like 3 trainers that come here once in a great while that ever have done anything worth talking about.... 

And just so there is no confusion on What Edgar Scherkl talked about in a full on power point presentation, 3 days of training and some formal discussion after training each day.....you did not essentially tell me the same thing in one or two paragraphs on the WDF.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

James Downey said:


> There's like 3 trainers that come here once in a great while that ever have done anything worth talking about....


Are you sure about that first point?

James, on my end it's all good. I didn't contribute much to that subject when it came up anyway. I support your enthusiasm and willingness to share your experiences and discoveries along the way. Your passion for learning and the exploration process is one that I also share.


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## Kat Hunsecker (Oct 23, 2009)

James Downey said:


> First. He has come to the same conclusion B.F. Skinner did, as well what I suspected.... +p does not work very well.
> He also thought that when a trainer starts thinking in terms how to punish a behavior, they cannot think about how to motivate the dog to do the correct behavior.
> 
> .


these two sentences just linger for multiple reasons....

I don't recall Skinner saying +R does not work very well?!?! Can you give me a reference point pleae, would be interested in this.... 

And the second sentence is, well why not use positive reeinforcement as intendet? like someone else mentioned with variable ratio and reeinforcement schedules?? It is not just add food or toy...
If +R wouldn't work in all it's variations...why is gambling such a hit?

And correct me if I am wrong, but it seems that that edgyness you are talking about is missing concentration and containment....?! (antcipating the reward and braking behaviors/ restlessnes?)
working in high drive and on the edge is a fine line, to beeing edgy.
Some people do mix this method up with a quasi reciepe out of "laissez faire" and +R..
Not really what I want.... or understand in traning with +R.

All of +/-R and +/- P - they work, they all do work. It is proven.
I guess it is up to the trainer on what and how to use...


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## Shade Whitesel (Aug 18, 2010)

Thanks Jim, 
I was wondering when they started to put adversives into their program. It's good to have at least a partial explanation.


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## Britney Pelletier (Mar 5, 2009)

James Downey said:


> First. He has come to the same conclusion B.F. Skinner did, as well what I suspected.... +p does not work very well.


Interesting.. I don't ever recall this. Do you have a reference?




> He believed it's important to have a socially stable dog, he thought that handler aggressive dogs may not have good aggression in the end. He thought that handler aggressive or socially aggressive dogs think from fear, not courage.


again.. interesting POV. I know we have already had a "discussion" about this matter, but I will reiterate the point that, until you have actually owned/handled a handler aggressive dog who thinks from courage/dominance, you would likely always assume they are just scared..


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Britney Pelletier said:


> Interesting.. I don't ever recall this. Do you have a reference?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I would also like to apply that same sentiment towards a socially aggressive dog that is NOT socially aggressive out of fear.


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## Louise Jollyman (Jun 2, 2009)

Yawwwwwnnnn! Oh sorry, did I post that! Feeling particularly sarcastic and bored with people who change like the wind. 

I agree with what Nicole said.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

> ....until you have actually owned/handled a handler aggressive dog who thinks from courage/dominance, you would likely always assume they are just scared..


argumentum ad ignorantiam


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## Marta Wajngarten (Jul 30, 2006)

James Downey said:


> So, he worked with me on implementing some -r on my dog for simple sits, downs and stands. At first the dog was responsive. But soon protested in the form of freezing up. I think the dog did not really understand the training and was a miss on what to do. But Edgar encouraged me to keep doing it, that he has seen this in dogs before...and that in all the dogs he has trained that once they learn that behavior is what removes the aversive the dog would be fine. And sure enough one more session at home. He was on board.


Clarify that please? So you pulled on your dog's leash on a fursaver, waited a couple seconds, said "sit", and when the dog complied you relaxed the leash? What was the hiccup at the beginning, you pulled on the leash said "sit" and the dog just looked at you doe eyed? 

When he is talking about applying aversives is he using ecollars or leash pressure and if so on a prong?

If I got that right then yeah, sound a lot like nepopo only less the reward at the end.. unless that was added as well.


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## Britney Pelletier (Mar 5, 2009)

Christopher Smith said:


> argumentum ad ignorantiam


My sentiment exactly.


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