# Civilians and patrol dog



## joe giggs (Feb 7, 2010)

I found this thread on the other forum and found it very interesting, I will like to post the link to the question and we can certainly continue the discussion here.

http://www.protectiondogforum.com/forum/patrol-dogs/380-civilians-and-patrol-dogs.html


Cheers.


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Is that Emilio asking that question ? My answer for him and his situation is No ! 

Seriously , around that part of Florida , almost the whole state , there are a ton of PSD's working and no need to call a civilian .


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

I think its a great idea(sarcasm) Everytime I needed some extra cash I would find one of those people and do something that falls in a grey area, get bit and sue the poop out of them.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

No way should a civilian ever be ask to deploy a partol dog. NO WAY! There are many obvious reasons why this is STUPID.


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## Dennis Jones (Oct 21, 2009)

which brings up a question, when is it legal for me to send out "Erika" on my property? Is it considered deadly force for me? I was told that LEO's use of K9s is not considered deadly force. 

Generaly speaking, would using a bite trained dog on the street have the same restrictions as using a firearm? That is to say I have to prove me and/or mine were faced with a real threat and we weren't just pissed at each other.


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Dennis you need to check with your local law enforcement for some clearity on those questions . 

Generally speaking I think if you use your bite trained dog on the streets you will need to prove you were in danger , yada yada yada and it may end up being a judge or jury's decision in the end .

Around my area dogs don't fall under the same restrictions as guns . You don't need a permit for the dog like you do a gun . But if you use the dog on someone you are going to have to have a good reason for doing it . 

PSD's aren't considered deadly force for law enforcement purposes based on the court and rulings and restictions we use them under . We also usually have specific training for the use of the dog .


As this concerns citizens they don't fall under those rulings . Tenn. V. Garner for one . That's a use of force case that all Police Officers in the US must follow . If it's found we acted following those guidelines we are covered .

But when a citizen uses something , dog , gun , knife it's going to be determined on your reasons for using that item , why and how you used it also . 

Depending on how you use anything a spoon even , the use of that item can be determined to be deadly force . Just use your imagination with the spoon I'm sure you can find some deadly uses for it .

Many times if it's questionable a Law Enforcement agency may arrest and let the courts decide from there . 

Sorry no easy answer for you and there more then likely never will be .


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Joe to answer part of your question there maybe individual local and maybe state restrictions on the use of those types of dogs . 

Around Minnesota there are none that I know of and have seen a security guard with a dog and a Bounty hunter with one . 

I've never heard of either using the dogs but here they are going to have to give a very good reason for useing that dog . My guess is if he/she uses it to chase or hunt down a suspect that might be up to a court to decide on . 

He/she will more then likely have to bring in there training records along with court cases that would justify there use of the dog . Just like LE has to in some cases . For us it's usually 4th Amendment (violation of Civil Rights) and Use of Force issues . 

For a civilian in a case like that it would more then likely be was it an assualt or wasn't it an assault .


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## Dennis Jones (Oct 21, 2009)

Jim Nash said:


> Dennis you need to check with your local law enforcement for some clearity on those questions .
> 
> Generally speaking I think if you use your bite trained dog on the streets you will need to prove you were in danger , yada yada yada and it may end up being a judge or jury's decision in the end .
> 
> ...


 
found another example that goes along with;

_Miller v. Clark County (9th Cir. Aug. 21, 2003)_
_In Miller v. Clark County (9th Cir. Aug. 21, 2003) 2003 DJDAR 9508, the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeal held that the use of a police dog to bite and hold a potentially dangerous fleeing felon for up to a minute, until the situation is insured to be safe, does not violate the Fourth Amendment. _


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Dennis, the case you cited, Miller v. Clark County, wouldn't apply to a civilian use of a dog. That is talking about a seizure of a person. The question of a seizure would only apply to an entity of the government. Or, I don't know why you would cite that case. Like TN v. Garner (a standard for use of force) it's applicable to law enforcement and how they perform their duties, rather than a civilian.

dFrost


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## Dennis Jones (Oct 21, 2009)

David Frost said:


> Dennis, the case you cited, Miller v. Clark County, wouldn't apply to a civilian use of a dog. That is talking about a seizure of a person. The question of a seizure would only apply to an entity of the government. Or, I don't know why you would cite that case. Like TN v. Garner (a standard for use of force) it's applicable to law enforcement and how they perform their duties, rather than a civilian.
> 
> dFrost


just adding to John's position of leave law enforcement to law enforcement. 

I'm just wondering why my use of a dog could be construed as deadly force but a K9 officer's use is not. The only thing I can figure is better training records


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I think Jim said it about local laws.
In my state we have the castle law that says I can use deadly force with anyone on my property, car included. 
It would involve a lot more red tape if I sent the dog on someone.


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Dennis , who says your use of the dog is deadly force ?


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## Dennis Jones (Oct 21, 2009)

Jim Nash said:


> Dennis , who says your use of the dog is deadly force ?


I'll have to dig, I think I'm confusing ppl being charged with a homicide when their dogs kill someone but I can't recall anybody being charged with attempted murder by using a dog.


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

If you got this from cases where Officers found themselves in a position to have to shot a civilian's dog there are many factors involved in that and why they would find him of herself defending themselves .

The main things that are looked at are , the Officer's knowledge of that dog at the time , situation the officer was in and the "reasonableness" of the officer's thinking . 

The typical around here is the serving of a High Risk search warrant . In the warrant itself are the reason for the use of the SWAT team and no knock entry amongst alot of other things . The high possiblity of weapons , known violent suspects present are some of the biggest reasons in getting this type of wt. and they are also some of the biggest reasons you are not going to mess around too much with a dog while serving it . 

In all the cases I know the Officers ;

A) is in the middle of a dangerous incident(serving the wt.) with an uncontrolled scene with violent suspects unsecured as well as possible weapons . 

A dog often times reguardless size chewing on one of your body parts while you are trying to get the scene secured , will likely endanger that Officer by distracting him from or making him incapable of performing his specific duties (thus endangering his teammates also) . The dog is definately a threat at this point and unfortunately usually must be taken out quickly . 


B) The Officer doesn't know if the dog has training to say release a bite or maybe has training to bite specifics parts , training to bite and not release , no training to release , etc. . 

It's all unknown to the Officer and I think it would be reasonable to believe that most dogs have no training whatsoever much less training to release a bite . The Officer doesn't know the dog at so it's been found in all cases I know of that the Officer had sufficient reason to believe the dog was a threat to him/her . 


C) The health issues of that dog . Vacinations is it sick etc. .

These are just some of the factors of often very complex situations.

It's usually reported that the Officer thought the dog was a threat to his/her life and most just think it's because of the dog's physical capabilities . That's not so , it's much more complex then that and must be looked at case by case .


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Dennis in those cases it's because the dog was believed to be used in a specific manner likely to cause death or great bodily harm or through negligence . Much like the spoon example . If you stick it in someone's eye or stuff it down someone's throat it's pretty clear what the intentions are .


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Jim Nash said:


> . Much like the spoon example . If you stick it in someone's eye .




ewwwwwww


DFrost


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Dennis Jones said:


> just adding to John's position of leave law enforcement to law enforcement.
> 
> I'm just wondering why my use of a dog could be construed as deadly force but a K9 officer's use is not. The only thing I can figure is better training records


 Funny thing about Florida....A perp can kick me in the balls and it's not deadly force...if I do the same, it is. 

Many, many times I've dealt with situations where, if I used the same force as the citizen it would be considered deadly force, but not for them.

Police must use only that force which is neccessary to efefct an arrest. Civilians are not held to such standards. If you, Dennis are being attacked, and you put the major woop ass on your attacker, you are exempt from prosecution unless it is painfully clear that you had every opportunity to get away from the guy but instead stayed to inflict unneeded harm. Of course, it's your word against his unless he has witnesses to testify against you.

I went to a burglary call where a 16 year old punk took a swing at the homeowner when he caught them stealing a battery out of his truck. The kid (6-4 240 lbs) took a swing at the homeowner...who just happened to be a martial arts instructor. When I arrived the kid was out cold and it took an ammonia cap to get him to around. You could literally read the victims' shoe trademark (Nike I think it was) on this kids body. Punk kids parents (who are criminals also) wanted the vic charged. My reply was "Nope...just be glad the guy didn't shoot your son". 

So...using your dog in Florida would not be a big deal..definately not deadly force. Sending her on someone off lead might be harder to explain.


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## Rick Cadez Jr. (Dec 1, 2009)

David, Jim, Howard, Thanks for all the info you guys provide from the Police K9 perspective on this site. As a newer K9 Ofc I have been able to acquire alot of helpful info from you guys. 

I will say that in Mich the Court is very strict on any kind of civilian dog bite. Even a situation where a dog bit an intruder in dog owner's home. That would probably rule out Mich as a state that a civilian would be able to handle a patrol dog. IMO


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## Dennis Jones (Oct 21, 2009)

I can't see letting my dog off lead to bite someone in public, most ppl aren't that stupid to mess with somebody with what appears to be a fully trained GSD. I got four GSDs in my home, I think most criminals would move on to an easier house to burgle. So I doubt my dogs will ever get a real bite off the training field.


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## Dennis Jones (Oct 21, 2009)

Rick Cadez Jr. said:


> David, Jim, Howard, Thanks for all the info you guys provide from the Police K9 perspective on this site. As a newer K9 Ofc I have been able to acquire alot of helpful info from you guys.
> 
> I will say that in Mich the Court is very strict on any kind of civilian dog bite. Even a situation where a dog bit an intruder in dog owner's home. That would probably rule out Mich as a state that a civilian would be able to handle a patrol dog. IMO



Geez, what are you suppose to do? kill the perp so there is only one version of the story?


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## Al Curbow (Mar 27, 2006)

I always think the people that post these questions should just get jobs as cops and hope that they can get in the K9 program. Don't you guys think it's weird? Like wannabes with dogs? lol It's the kind of stuff that gives the PP people the weirdness thing.......If someone breaks in your house you have to bash their heads in with your bat while your dogs are biting them and figure it out later. No Cheshire bullshit.

Another thing i think gets jumbled, it wouldn't be a "patrol dog", a civilial isn't "patrolling" he'd be out with his dog.


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## Rick Cadez Jr. (Dec 1, 2009)

I totally agree with bashing them with a bat and letting your dog chew on them. I have just heard some crazy liability rulings regarding dog bites in MI. So many of the idiots that get bit in this state seem to think 1 of the ambulance chaser lawyers is gonna make them rich. Not implying that all dog bite victims are idiots.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

This has nothing to do with dogs....But, In the Coast Guard, we have an Auxillary unit of civilians. We have five basic missions, Martime Saftey, Maritme moblilty, protection of natural resources, national defense, and maritime security....The last 3 all have a law enforcement componet to them. The Auxillary cannot preform any of the LE enforcement roles within those missions. 

They are civilians, apart of a Federal Law Enforcement Military Service. I would suspect that since they have no legal jurdistiction to perform any type of law enforcement duty. Neither would Joe Blow because he has a good dog.

I have a car and a gun also...Can I go on patrol?

That's got be the stupidest question I have ever heard in terms of working dogs.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: So I doubt my dogs will ever get a real bite off the training field.

So you go through a lot of people training your dog ??


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## chris haynie (Sep 15, 2009)

reminds me of those "minute men" volunteer border patrol types...couldn't pass the pysch or physical eval to be BP for real so they end up walking around the border with winchester lever action and PBR by the case. yeehaw! maybe the minute men need a patrol dog.


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## Mike Lauer (Jul 26, 2009)

join a large city security company, some of them use patrol dogs
but you'd probably get a lot more use out of a detector dog

as far as deadly force, police dogs bite people every day and in history there have been what 1 death?
they are not deadly. more people die from mace and tons of people carry that.
it would fall on the use of force scale somewhere like a club or mace would be my guess

like said above 100 times check your local laws


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