# serious dog goes for the kill



## Marcel Winter (Mar 29, 2013)

This what can happen with a serious dog and a bad helper with no
any idea what he is doing.This dog is not interested in sleeves
he wanna go for the kill. 0.53 Game over.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gjXIoCIAVQI


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

That video never gets old.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

that might have hurt a little


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## Brian McQuain (Oct 21, 2009)

He'll never get that smell out of his scratch pants.


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## Steve Burger (Jan 2, 2009)

That is not what I would call a serious dog. It was a situation of a lousy foundation, unclear dog, poor handling and poor helper work.


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## John Ly (Mar 26, 2014)

Why was the handling poor?


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## Marcel Winter (Mar 29, 2013)

Steve Burger said:


> That is not what I would call a serious dog. It was a situation of a lousy foundation, unclear dog, poor handling and poor helper work.



What you gonna think what happened without the leash that helper has a serious problem. @0.53


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## Rob Maltese (Jan 8, 2014)

I know very little about decoy work, I know very little about dog training....

That's poor training, decoy work and handling.


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## Mark Sheplak (Oct 28, 2011)

I don't see how anyone can judge the "seriousness" of the dog from that video.

The helper is awful and does ZERO to pressure the dog, so there is no way to discern how committed that dog is to the bite. The helper does nothing prior to the bite body posture wise to pressure the dog, he does nothing to try to prevent the bite pressure wise, he doesn't pressure him on the bite, there is no physical pressure...nothing. The helper is making prey movements, frustrating him with a back-tie type of miss, his body is lateral to the dog, etc. 

That being said, that dog is not working in prey, but he isn't being pressured either, so I don't see how you can judge seriousness. All that nastiness might quickly turn into avoidance with appropriate pressure. 

This is a far cry from Alex's ski pole test... 

You can say that the dog isn't a sleeve monkey, that is about all. There are many dogs out there that want the helper over the sleeve.


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## Marcel Winter (Mar 29, 2013)

This dog work in defense not in prey he uses his instinct going to the
the throat this dog can kill a man in a few seconds .

Ok not any pressure from the decoy because he don,t know anything about it.


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## Matthew Grubb (Nov 16, 2007)

Marcel Winter said:


> What you gonna think what happened without the leash that helper has a serious problem. @0.53


Bah! He would have took an ouchie and that's about it. The dog didn't have any intent on taking him in the chest, shoulder, or anywhere else. If that dog was properly balanced, he would never have come off the sleeve.

The sleeve and the bite-suit are nothing but prey items and that decoy was doing nothing to throw that dog into fight AT ALL. If that dog was "all that" he should have been clamped down on that sleeve crushing it. 

Before anyone says "It's about the man", put the dog in a muzzle and let him fight a decoy who knows what he's doing.


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Matthew Grubb said:


> Bah! He would have took an ouchie and that's about it. The dog didn't have any intent on taking him in the chest, shoulder, or anywhere else. If that dog was properly balanced, he would never have come off the sleeve.
> 
> The sleeve and the bite-suit are nothing but prey items and that decoy was doing nothing to throw that dog into fight AT ALL. If that dog was "all that" he should have been clamped down on that sleeve crushing it.
> 
> Before anyone says "It's about the man", put the dog in a muzzle and let him fight a decoy who knows what he's doing.


Totally agree with this post. I have one of those PST dogs living next door. He charged me a few times and I just run at him with my arm raised and back him down.


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## Brian McQuain (Oct 21, 2009)

Matthew Grubb said:


> . If that dog was properly balanced, he would never have come off the sleeve.


Doesn't look like that dog had much prior training, and that breed is naturally disproportionally balance...generally higher in defense. Don't really care though, that video is funny to watch


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

I don't want that dog for personal protection or a police dog. He's going to crap piles too big that I wouldn't want to clean up.... 

Balanced? He percieves a threat and chooses to stay and "fight", not to flee. was it the leash? The presence of the human behind him? I don't know but he went forward closer to the face of the man to rebite, not away from the man further down the hand or in the legs, starting to get away.

A sleeve and a bitesuit are not prey items to an untrained dog, which he appeared to be. Also not a prey item to something that is scared or threatened, trained or not.

Thanks for volunteering to fight him, but if he's "not all that" then why do you need him muzzled? You know what you are doing, you don't need him to have a muzzle to run him....

you might get him to run, but I wouldn't take the chance.

has to be a KNPV dog with his natural targeting past the sleeves up into the armpit.....lol. 




Matthew Grubb said:


> Before anyone says "It's about the man", put the dog in a muzzle and let him fight a decoy who knows what he's doing.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Why did the dog take off once it had the first sleeve?! 

Should it have dropped the sleeve and gone after the man? 

Would it have returned if the "helper" didn't have the extra sleeve after the first one was lost to the handler (my "guess")

The first attempt at a bitebite was quickly lost. Poor helper work or poor intent by the dog...or both. 

How many times has the dog been presented with a sleeve?

That may be the best dog on the planet but not based on that short clip.


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

I don't personally like to hold those breeds to standards of a high end sport or police dog. But yeah they will chase a dirt bag off your property.


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## Haz Othman (Mar 25, 2013)

If you watch vids of most of those dogs they are always backing up in the bitework and almost always the decoy and handler are both crap. 
I like this ovcharaka he is at the end of the leash the whole time and is clearly in defence.
I like this breed for estate protection with proper individual selection. Not a sport or police dog obviously but if you want something that will keep idiots and varmints off the homestead I like some of the Ovcharaka. There was a vid of one doing good suit work on here.


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## Travis Ragin (Apr 10, 2010)

Matthew Grubb said:


> Before anyone says "It's about the man", put the dog in a muzzle and let him fight a decoy who knows what he's doing.


What outcome are you alluding to that happens against a decoy who knows what he's doing?


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

Haz Othman said:


> If you watch vids of most of those dogs they are always backing up in the bitework and almost always the decoy and handler are both crap.
> I like this ovcharaka he is at the end of the leash the whole time and is clearly in defence.
> I like this breed for estate protection with proper individual selection. Not a sport or police dog obviously but if you want something that will keep idiots and varmints off the homestead I like some of the Ovcharaka. There was a vid of one doing good suit work on here.


 I remember reading their are different strains of them even a conformation line of them. But all of them need a lot of socializing when they are young.


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## Matthew Grubb (Nov 16, 2007)

Travis Ragin said:


> What outcome are you alluding to that happens against a decoy who knows what he's doing?


A good decoy will bring out the best in the dog or expose the faults. A decoy can either make a dog look like a hero when he isn't or unfairly run him off the field and ruin him.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Reading the comments posted with these videos is kinda like making mashed potatoes with peaches. You get the camps that are critical of the fact that it's not creamy enough or too watery and the others that wonder what the cook could have done differently to change the outcome.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

I heard a semi-reliable account of one decapitating a wolf on the run..


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## Brian McQuain (Oct 21, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> I heard a semi-reliable account of one decapitating a wolf on the run..


My legend has spread far and wide


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

Nicole Stark said:


> Reading the comments posted with these videos is kinda like making mashed potatoes with peaches. You get the camps that are critical of the fact that it's not creamy enough or too watery and the others that wonder what the cook could have done differently to change the outcome.


Do you used the standards of a treeing feist to evaluate rabbit hunting beagles?


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

I want to eat mashed potatoes with peaches now. I may have missed the point. Then again, I sort of wanted to do bitework when i watched the video so maybe that is the point...





Nicole Stark said:


> Reading the comments posted with these videos is kinda like making mashed potatoes with peaches. You get the camps that are critical of the fact that it's not creamy enough or too watery and the others that wonder what the cook could have done differently to change the outcome.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

:-k Mashed peaches baked with a nice pie crust surrounding it.............:-o I'm in!


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## Travis Ragin (Apr 10, 2010)

Mark Sheplak said:


> his body is lateral to the dog


Standing square......with that dog...... is what got him bit.








Mark Sheplak said:


> he doesn't pressure him on the bite,


What technique would you use to pressure him on the bite?


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## Travis Ragin (Apr 10, 2010)

Rob Maltese said:


> I know very little about decoy work, I know very little about dog training....
> 
> That's poor training, decoy work and handling.



Look closely on the ground in that video. See that rope/hose or whatever it is laying stretched across the entrance?

Being raised around dog training(in America)since the late 70's.....I can tell you in protection training that is whats called a "line".


Notice where the dog lines up in the first part of the video? Notice the area where the decoy operates from? Pay close attention on that first bite, the decoy refuses to let the dog pull him over that line, even standing/balancing on one leg to prevent the other half of his body from crossing that line. 

In the second part of the vid, you can see the decoy motions for the handler to come closer to him at the gate.....but then stops the dog right at the line. After that the decoy goofed up by not sticking to his original game plan and was quickly given a reminder by the dog about why he was taking precautions in the first place.

I also think that dog was back-tied so i don't understand those who've made the 'bad handler' comments?


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## Travis Ragin (Apr 10, 2010)

Bob Scott said:


> How many times has the dog been presented with a sleeve?


More than the 2 times on this video, there is no doubt, because the dog would not have turned around so quickly and realized he 'won' just from snatching off a body part. That is trained behavior in that video.








Bob Scott said:


> The first attempt at a bitebite was quickly lost. Poor helper work or poor intent by the dog...or both.


Actually, the first bite he made....was just like the second bite he made to get the decoy to leave. He 'gripped' it with his front incisors and quickly shook. That isn't poor intention by the dog, he knew exactly what he was doing. The bite wasn't lost.....dog let it go once he got all four paws back on the ground, balanced himself,recoiled....and was about to spring back up into the decoy for a flesh bite....had he crossed that line(which he later did).

The decoy's presentation of the sleeve means nothing. At about ;23 he even offers the sleeve end straight toward the dog. The decoy presented the sleeve, dog bit it how he wanted to. His intention wasn't an attempt to get a "grip" anyway.


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## Catherine Gervin (Mar 12, 2012)

Travis Ragin said:


> More than the 2 times on this video, there is no doubt, because the dog would not have turned around so quickly and realized he 'won' just from snatching off a body part. That is trained behavior in that video.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 much obliged to you for making an assessment and report of that video so those of us who don't know all the ins and outs of what we're seeing can be schooled. truly!


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