# Sleeve suckers?



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Would like some opinions as this term is being used a lot. I am not a sch. guy and am not sure what the term means to people.

Some types of dogs...from one extreme to another, in how they react to the situation *without* the use of the OUT command first.

1. A dog that will not bite the sleeve, he will go under or over it.

Dogs that do bite the sleeve.

2. A dog that spits out the sleeve as soon as the fight stops, even if the guy has the sleeve on, and engages elsewhere.

3. A dog that spits out the sleeve when it is slipped, and engages. immediately with no stimulation.

4. A dog that holds the sleeve but spits it out if the decoy gets the dogs attention verbally or with a stick, a jug o rocks, gunfire, or whatever, and engages.

5. A dog that holds the sleeve, but will split it out if the decoy gets closer, and engages.

6. A dog that holds the sleeve but spits it out if the decoy attempts to grab it, and engages.

7. A dog that holds for a bit, maybe runs around, then spits it out and engages.


I am sure there are plenty more types....

I have worked with dogs of all these types. 

Differences occur in the dogs, depending if on-leash or off-leash. I am referring to OFF LEASH. 

#1 is a very rare dog. NOT COMMON.
#2 is a rare dog. NOT COMMON.
#3 is not all that common either...

The question is at what point is the dog a "sleeve sucker" in most people's minds. 

Some people may think that if the dog does not spit out the sleeve and try to re-attack immediately once it is slipped that the dog is a sleeve sucker, when the truth is very few dogs will do this, unless specifically trained to do so.

If a dog is onleash you will see the trend moving higher end of the spectrum. If off-leash the same dog will usually tend to be more towards what is closer a sleeve sucker.

I work with a girl that has a couple dogs in her stable that avoid the sleeve totally, they were trained this way obviously. WHY? I am not sure..she is kinda nutty....but back to the question at hand.

If a dog is sent and the guy slips the sleeve and does not threaten the dog, and he does not re-attack without stim? Is he a sleeves sucker? I don't know, help me out here.


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

I don't read too much into it as it can all be shaped or trained for. Aa a pup my dog dropped the sleeve or suit jacket and went to the end of the leash, to nail the decoy himslef. We had to teach a carry or to unload on the equipment. There is what comes natural and what has been done to the dog through training. By watching a yotube video of an older dog with a buttload of training on him, who's to say at that point? Sport people don't generally encourage endangering their helpers.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Michelle Kehoe said:


> I don't read too much into it as it can all be shaped or trained for. Aa a pup my dog dropped the sleeve or suit jacket and went to the end of the leash, to nail the decoy himslef. We had to teach a carry or to unload on the equipment. There is what comes natural and what has been done to the dog through training. By watching a yotube video of an older dog with a buttload of training on him, who's to say at that point? Sport people don't generally encourage endangering their helpers.


Exactly my point.....onleash though...and a pup....

I tried this out a few times, offleash if the dogs targeting is super solid, with a sleeve and a hidden sleeve, or hidden suit, using just a sleeve cuff over one arm.... much different reactions usually if the leash is gone.

I assume asleeve sucker is a dog that has no interest in fighting the man? is that right for most people...

but lets say the decoy can safely slip the sleeve and not get re-attacked without provocation, but should be pretty alert...is that dog a sleeve sucker. I personally don't think so. But some people do....


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## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

Well I'm having a hard time picturing most of this.

On #1 this would have to be a green dog as any other sch dog is biting the sleeve and a green dog is never off leash? I had one of these...seemed like she viewed the sleeve as a blocking device 

#2 lost on this...you mean a dog that automatically outs? But reengages how? Gets nippy? What? Most folks don't want a dog to auto out but there are some. And again why would this dog ever be off leash if he hasn't learned he can only unload into the sleeve?

#3 this dog could be off leash if that is what they trained...but again... the dog is not supposed to bite on his own.

The rest of them....I can't picture anyone allowing the dog to "engage"? I'm lost on that.

The dog I'm working now prior to working the out would not let go if the sleeve while on the helper and would continue to create his own fight. Once we started the hnb and out he would try to bite the helper...he did a few times or more but this is HEAVILY corrected, I still dont trust him and he is never off leash. If its a long bite the helper keeps him on until I get there. Now if we do slip the sleeve he will carry and then platz and out and eye the helper....at this point if e tries to bite or engage he is getting corrected. Its not a free for all, bite when allowed only!

Maybe I totally don't understand what you are asking and if so disregard lol

T




Joby Becker said:


> Would like some opinions as this term is being used a lot. I am not a sch. guy and am not sure what the term means to people.
> 
> Some types of dogs...from one extreme to another, in how they react to the situation *without* the use of the OUT command first.
> 
> ...


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

I think the term was being used to describe a dog who was only interested in the sleeve, and not the person behind it at all. But I have to agree with Michelle, when you are looking at an adult dog, how can you know what is the dog and what is the training? I've had pups that would drop a sleeve, rag, etc to nail the person, eventually we trained this out of them to the point the helper can safely slip the sleeve and the dog will carry it around. I still keep an eye on them, because they will still try their old tricks once in awhile, but if you watched them train, or a short video on the web, would you really know what they were like naturally vs trained?

On the flip side, if a puppy doesn't drop the sleeve and go after the man does that really mean he's genetically a "sleeve sucker"? I don't think so, since many pups don't develope their "civil side" or whatever you want to call it until later on. 

Finally, just because a dog can go out and have a fun game with a helper doesn't mean it has no "real" side to it, just that it knows this is a fun game. Might be how it was raised/trained, might be the dog is less edgy, but doesn't always mean there isn't any civil side to it, just that it's not being tapped into at the moment.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

When I read the wording "sleeve sucker" I immediately thought it was the translation for the German expression, i.e. "Beutelutscher". Reading further, I picked up on the fact that a "prey orientated" dog was meant maybe. A dog that would rather go for the sleeve lying on the ground than "attack" the helper.

The German expression "Beutelutscher" is used, negatively, for a dog that can be motivated by prey to bite the sleeve but will just hang in there and not try to counter. Earns "useful" points with some judges but away from the trial, if pressured by the helper, will drop the sleeve and run.

The actual "Beutehund" (prey dog) can be trained to a point where it earns high points in "C" in Schutzhund and is often preferred by some judges. I read somewhere that a large number of the BSP or WUSV dog would flee the field if pressured properly.

What Kadi said about the pup dropping the sleeve because he's not fully developed had me thinking about how a lot of trainers used to wait until the dog had reached a certain age, over 12 months or so, before doing bite work with it in order to see what the dog was really worth.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

I think the people who use this term "sleevesucker" for SchH dogs would be surprised to see how many of their own ring dogs are "suitsuckers" as well. I think that most dogs who are brought up by using prey as the primary drive to train the dog in (almost all sport people do, regardless of the sport) will become conditioned to focus on the sleeve, or the suit and many will never even notice the man behind the equipment. Here at our kennel we work our young puppies and adolescent police dog prospects in the same manner that we work sport dogs up to a certian point. Most of our young dogs are more interested in the equipment until we start to wean them off of it when they are mentally ready. That is perfectly normal, and it is a result of conditioning more so than genetics with most dogs in my opinion. There are exceptions of course, but the majority will fit this bill.
If your goal is to compete at the higher levels of SchH for example, what is wrong with having a dog that is driven only to bite the sleeve and fight the decoy to win the sleeve? If the dog has good nerves and high working drives he can almost always be taught to bring the fight directly to the man, equipment or not, but why train a top level SchH dog to do this? Why not keep him super clear headed and focused on the sport (the game) that is how you win in SchH. In schH, biting the decoy in the chest, or the back of the leg will earn you no extra points, and no extra friends. Just like biting the decoy in the face in Ring will not either.
I think many people would be surprised at just how "sporty" their own dogs are.


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## Maria Janota (Sep 24, 2009)

mike suttle said:


> If your goal is to compete at the higher levels of SchH for example, what is wrong with having a dog that is driven only to bite the sleeve and fight the decoy to win the sleeve? If the dog has good nerves and high working drives he can almost always be taught to bring the fight directly to the man, equipment or not, but why train a top level SchH dog to do this? Why not keep him super clear headed and focused on the sport (the game) that is how you win in SchH.


Considering the sport dog it doesn`t matter if it bites in prey or fight drive, as long as it performs well. But in breeding, if one is breeding for specific traits - it does matter. If it is a GSD it should have some level of fight (defense - let`s live terminology for a second) drive no matter how it will be trained later. Same for many other breeds.
How does sport dogs work effects breeders (buyers looking for certain kind of dog) and so it effects breeds.
I may not care for buying a pedigree dog, as long as it is what I want him to be, but I also don`t like changing what breeds were supoosed to be. At last big changes.
Just my opinion.

And one more thing - I`ve been told many times by my treiners, the decoys and competitors I know, that none top level IPO dog is only prey driven. None of German Champions and top level dogs. I don`t know if it is true but I heard it from peple who trained with those dogs and their hendlers. So how is it? Is the prey enough or maybe not? I`m really courious.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

I have imported a few National level SchH dogs from Europe who had competed at the National level in their country. They were all very prey driven dogs with very little, if any real aggression. I have a SchH 1 dog here now with very low scores and he is by far way more of a real dog than the top level high scoring multi time SchH 3 dogs that I have imported. His grips are the same, but his intentions are way more harmful.


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## Maria Janota (Sep 24, 2009)

I`m sorry I was not clear enough I ment international level - Peter Sherk, Edgar Sherkl, Knut Fuchs. Yes, most of national level dogs in Poland are just prey driven. So maybe that`s one of the causes of not beeing top ten, or top twenty etc - with one exeption) at Wolrd Championships?


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## Maria Janota (Sep 24, 2009)

mike suttle said:


> I have a SchH 1 dog here now with very low scores and he is by far way more of a real dog than the top level high scoring multi time SchH 3 dogs that I have imported. His grips are the same, but his intentions are way more harmful.


That is good for an experiment - for one to take two dogs with different levels of drives, and train them for Sch in the same enviroment, and methods best suited for their drives...


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Maria Janota said:


> That is good for an experiment - for one to take two dogs with different levels of drives, and train them for Sch in the same enviroment, and methods best suited for their drives...



That's exactly what I am doing though it's not an experiment but rather a difference in training due to the nature of each breed. You work with what the dog gives you or get a new dog...

My Rott and Mal have been trained by the same people since they were both pups. The Rott is 55% prey 45% defense my Mal is 70% prey and 30% defense.


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## Maria Janota (Sep 24, 2009)

Chris Michalek said:


> That's exactly what I am doing though it's not an experiment but rather a difference in training due to the nature of each breed. You work with what the dog gives you or get a new dog...
> 
> My Rott and Mal have been trained by the same people since they were both pups. The Rott is 55% prey 45% defense my Mal is 70% prey and 30% defense.


Any chance you`ll switch to Schutzhund? That would be for the greater good - in the name o science:mrgreen:


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

I didn't think about it until latter that day but I found it kind of interesting. I have no choice but to work my own dogs in prey with a sleeve. There is no one here that will work my dogs. 

During that event I had with a bad guy trying to steal from my truck the dog definitely targeted the arm. No one here ever wears even long sleeve shirts. This dude was in a tank top. The dog bit the bear arm and hung on just like it was a sleeve.

I think Mike has a point. What are the dogs real intentions?


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Since this is the lounge and not the conflict free or the Schutzhund area, I'll give my opinion. My opinion includes these behaviors, among others, I would consider "sleeve sucking". 

1. If the decoy is running away and drops the sleeve and the dog picks it up, he's a sleeve sucker. 

2. If the decoy lets go of the sleeve while the dog is engaged and the dog brings it back to the handler, that's a sleeve sucker. 

DFrost


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

tracey delin said:


> Well I'm having a hard time picturing most of this.
> 
> On #1 this would have to be a green dog as any other sch dog is biting the sleeve and a green dog is never off leash? I had one of these...seemed like she viewed the sleeve as a blocking device
> 
> ...


It's ok...

I am not referring to sport training situations.And am definately not saying this is how I would do it, just naming types from one extreme to the other.

#1 dog (which I have seen) is specifically trained not to bite the sleeve, to go over it or under it...a novelty thing I am thinking, but I know someone with dogs like this. Better have a suit on.period.

#2 a dog that will out and re-attack (not the sleeve) I have seen this too...

#3 a dog that is sent to attack the man, gets a sleeve bite which is then slipped. Dog was not given out command, so he immediately re-engages the man.

Again describing situations, It seems some people don't have a lot of respect for a dog that can have the sleeve safely slipped off leash. I have heard the term used to describe these dogs...


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

Please click one of the Quick Reply icons in the posts above to activate Quick Reply.


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## Khoi Pham (Apr 17, 2006)

Joby Becker said:


> Would like some opinions as this term is being used a lot. I am not a sch. guy and am not sure what the term means to people.
> 
> Some types of dogs...from one extreme to another, in how they react to the situation *without* the use of the OUT command first.
> 
> ...


I believe it is all in the training, my dog for his first 3 years saw nothing but sleeve, he is a SchH dog, now we train in PSA, and there is a scenario in PSA where you fended of a dog using a sleeve, take a look at the video link, it is all in the training and not a type of dog. http://www.vimeo.com/8230599


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## Mike Lauer (Jul 26, 2009)

would seem to o be training to me also
I have seen some of the things your talking about here
my pup at 8 weeks got mad playing wit the tug on the kitchen floor when i pushed him away and he slid several times. when I finally let him come and presented a clear tug in front of him he ducked under it and locked onto my shin.
I also know PD dog that chased a bad guy in the winter, locked onto the arm, the perp slipped his winter coat and the dog brought it back to the handler.
so some dogs obviously have it from the start but can be conditioned to the sleeve (or suit)

like Mike said you try to wean them off it later
you obviously cant always train without a sleeve or suit, just the facts of life


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

I agree with Mr. Frost. 

What would you all consider a dog that, off leash (or on, ... doesn't matter) and tail-wagging, will gladly hold onto the sleeve after it is slipped and trot around for a few seconds, take it back to the helper and push it 'upwards' against the helper's knees, but will then _immediately _drop the sleeve and nail the helper's arm/leg/whatever happens to be closest at the time if the helper looks at the dog and/or tries to reach for the sleeve to put it back on to play tug or whatever??? \\/ :-\"


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## Julie Blanding (Mar 12, 2008)

I would call it the last session of slipping the sleeve and kick the handlers a$$ for letting it happen


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

Julie Blanding said:


> I would call it the last session of slipping the sleeve and kick the handlers a$$ for letting it happen


It's not the handler's fault if the helper doesn't listen!![-X


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## Julie Blanding (Mar 12, 2008)

LOL! Well, if the handler warned the helper... I agree there


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

This is the same dog that will do a fake-out on a 'roll-out' (where the helper starts out on the outside of the blind and as the dog gets close, runs around the blind and essentially ends up doing an escape bite on the opposite side as the dog follows him around the blind) every single time, and will meet the helper on the other side without going around the blind! :lol: She will wait until the absolute last second, too - even to the point of skidding to a stop and jumping OVER the 'point' of the blind!! She's really a bitch!

I figure, at this point, the helper knows how she is and still continues to do things that he knows could get him bitten, so whatever. It's his ass; not mine.


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

what about the dog that bites where ever it can while working the street but is sleeve sure in training. So sure you could slip it with out worrying about the decoy or onlookers? Would you think that would be an exception or pretty much normal?


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## Adam Rawlings (Feb 27, 2009)

will fernandez said:


> what about the dog that bites where ever it can while working the street but is sleeve sure in training. So sure you could slip it with out worrying about the decoy or onlookers? Would you think that would be an exception or pretty much normal?


If it was a street dog and the sleeve is slipped and the dog doesn't spit it out and engage, there was a step missed in training IMO.


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## Donna DeYoung (Jan 29, 2010)

this is a great discussion as I'm learning what I have in my 2 dogs. I took them to a trainer for eval. this past weekend. the 4 yr old GSD male was raised in a family home and as far as i know, hasn't had alot of formal training. I've had him a few months. he does know sit, stay, out and has a strong toy retrieve drive. has shown agression/protection toward his "females" in past which is why he is rehomed w/ me after being in 2 other homes. He has a natural mean bark and went right for the rag. then when agitated, he was ready to get right to work .he looked at me for a second as if to say, am I supposed to do this? and he bit the sleeve. but when it dropped, he was going right again for the helper. I was told to let him take the sleeve and carry it around, but he wasn't interested in the sleeve, he was watching the guy and he wanted to eat him.

was told he was somewhat stressed out by doing the protection work and trainer said it "looked like" he'd done some before. but w/ good handling, he is a good candidate for pp work and we're going into obed simultaneously of course. bec naturally this dog is well adjusted around many situations. i can control him physically, now wil be focusing on really getting the obed/control down.

my other dog had some schutzhund work as a puppy. now 3 yrs old and has just been on the farm w/ me for the past year. she saw it more as a game. he said she was more sporty. she went for the bite but wasn't as strong a fighter. she was "happy" she got the sleeve and carried it like a trophy. she is a good beginner dog for me to learn schutzhund with and could possibly get titled. so she is probably a sleeve sucker but perfect for what I want in her.!

Donna


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Adam Rawlings said:


> If it was a street dog and the sleeve is slipped and the dog doesn't spit it out and engage, there was a step missed in training IMO.


I disagree. IMO that's like saying "if the dog is playing with the handler and they drop the equipment, the dog should spit it out and tag them". Dogs are intelligent, they know the difference between "real" and "game". Some dogs aren't safe for this, but I've met plenty of successful street dogs over the years that were also solid on a sleeve, they knew the difference and knew the rules to the game when they were playing it. I think it also depends on how the dog is being worked. Big difference between a few fun prey bites and a decoy who is putting a lot of pressure on the dog, bringing out that fight and/or defense, in that scenario I would expect the dog to probably spit out the sleeve and nail the helper LOL


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## jack van strien (Apr 9, 2009)

Sorry everyone,i do not see any value in this thread,the word sleeve sucker was invented by someone who doesn't like Schh.
What can be learned here?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> I disagree. IMO that's like saying "if the dog is playing with the handler and they drop the equipment, the dog should spit it out and tag them". Dogs are intelligent, they know the difference between "real" and "game". Some dogs aren't safe for this, but I've met plenty of successful street dogs over the years that were also solid on a sleeve, they knew the difference and knew the rules to the game when they were playing it. I think it also depends on how the dog is being worked. Big difference between a few fun prey bites and a decoy who is putting a lot of pressure on the dog, bringing out that fight and/or defense, in that scenario I would expect the dog to probably spit out the sleeve and nail the helper LOL


I agree


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> Some dogs aren't safe for this, but I've met plenty of successful street dogs over the years that were also solid on a sleeve, they knew the difference and knew the rules to the game when they were playing it.


Do you think this "knowledge of the rules" is similar to dogs who can go back and forth between sleeve work and suit work as well? For example, I have a dog who knows leg bites (and we've started upper body bites) on the suit, yet knows to target the sleeve when it is presented.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Konnie Hein said:


> Do you think this "knowledge of the rules" is similar to dogs who can go back and forth between sleeve work and suit work as well? For example, I have a dog who knows leg bites (and we've started upper body bites) on the suit, yet knows to target the sleeve when it is presented.


Yes. Although for some dogs the suit is nothing more then a huge sleeve. To me though saying a dog is "sleeve sure" may not be any different then saying "he won't bite the hands" when the dog is in the suit. Now there are dogs that won't bite hands in the suit that aren't sleeve sure, you can't be sure one implies the other. But if my sport dog in the suit bites my decoy in the hand on purpose (accidents are a whole different matter) I'm going to kick his a$$. And if my dog bites the Sch helper in the leg I'm going to kick his a$$. Note I said sport dog, although even if I was training him for PP work I'd still expect, and so would my decoys, an element of safety. On the flip side if the decoy/helper is taking liberties with my dog that he shouldn't be, and my dog retaliates by nailing him in an unprotected spot, I may have to tell the decoy "oops, you probably shouldn't do that". 

But this is why I don't think you can label a dog a 'sleeve sucker' without knowing all it's background. For all you (the viewer) knows, that dog has had it's a$$ handed to it many times for dropping the sleeve and redirecting back onto the helper. I watch handlers all the time specifically training their dogs to hold/carry the sleeve, and ignore what the helper is doing. And on the flip side I've watched people whose dogs would happily carry the sleeve around forever teach their dogs to never take it's eyes off the helper, drop the sleeve and redirect, etc. So without knowing the background, how do you know if it's trained vs natural behavior?


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> Yes. Although for some dogs the suit is nothing more then a huge sleeve. To me though saying a dog is "sleeve sure" may not be any different then saying "he won't bite the hands" when the dog is in the suit. Now there are dogs that won't bite hands in the suit that aren't sleeve sure, you can't be sure one implies the other. But if my sport dog in the suit bites my decoy in the hand on purpose (accidents are a whole different matter) I'm going to kick his a$$. And if my dog bites the Sch helper in the leg I'm going to kick his a$$. Note I said sport dog, although even if I was training him for PP work I'd still expect, and so would my decoys, an element of safety. On the flip side if the decoy/helper is taking liberties with my dog that he shouldn't be, and my dog retaliates by nailing him in an unprotected spot, I may have to tell the decoy "oops, you probably shouldn't do that".
> 
> But this is why I don't think you can label a dog a 'sleeve sucker' without knowing all it's background. For all you (the viewer) knows, that dog has had it's a$$ handed to it many times for dropping the sleeve and redirecting back onto the helper. I watch handlers all the time specifically training their dogs to hold/carry the sleeve, and ignore what the helper is doing. And on the flip side I've watched people whose dogs would happily carry the sleeve around forever teach their dogs to never take it's eyes off the helper, drop the sleeve and redirect, etc. So without knowing the background, how do you know if it's trained vs natural behavior?


Exacalakally Kadi. People training for sport want a "safe" dog to work and try to balance them out at the same time. So if a dog is spitting the sleeve and wanting to eat the helper, he is shown to unlaod on the sleeve and maybe bring the sleeve back to "play" another round. A dog that is all play may be worked to look a bit more real, with a little age on him. 

My club works all of it's dogs on sleeve and suit and the dogs brought up in the club are all sure and safe to bite either. The dogs aren't dumb as Kadi stated. Will most of these dogs bite bare skin...I won't say most but my older male will along with the folks who do PD work of course. Just because a dog is safe, doesn't make him a a sleeve sucker.


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

Donna DeYoung said:


> then when agitated, he was ready to get right to work .he looked at me for a second as if to say, am I supposed to do this?
> Donna


That could be a problem


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