# Psycho puppy ... biting machine



## Tilly Smith (May 6, 2009)

My 11/12 week old working GSD puppy is having a couple of psycho moments where he just bites and bites ... anything he can get him mouth on. He is totally full on, latching on to anything from your feet, legs, hands, etc ... and he bites really hard - if he is not on a leash then he is hard to control during this time. The only thing that controls these moments are crating him and walking away - offering up a bite toy doesn't seem to help in redirecting him.

He has excellent prey drive and plays on the rag and tug well. He toilets, comes and sits on command (except when he is having a psycho moment). Walking on a leash can range from excellent to him with the leash in his mouth and him trying to hanging off the end of the leash.

He has limited focus - but I am trying to work on this. He will focus for a short while and then will start jumping or biting.

How can I redirect his biting to his bite toys only?

How can I improve his focus?


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

"...and he bites really hard" 

you don't have him on a raw diet do you? :lol:

you have to find a way to be more interesting than the object the pup is biting. A ball or rag on a short rope should do it.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Tilly Smith said:


> My 11/12 week old working GSD puppy is having a couple of psycho moments where he just bites and bites ... anything he can get him mouth on. He is totally full on, latching on to anything from your feet, legs, hands, etc ... and he bites really hard - if he is not on a leash then he is hard to control during this time. The only thing that controls these moments are crating him and walking away - offering up a bite toy doesn't seem to help in redirecting him.
> 
> He has excellent prey drive and plays on the rag and tug well. He toilets, comes and sits on command (except when he is having a psycho moment). Walking on a leash can range from excellent to him with the leash in his mouth and him trying to hanging off the end of the leash.
> 
> ...


Sounds like you have a normal healthy active pup, I would just let him or her just do whatever it wants right now without any attempt at control because it's just not there at that age.

I have an almost 1 yr old dog that has limited focus :lol: what's the rush ?


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Tilly Smith said:


> My 11/12 week old working GSD puppy is having a couple of psycho moments where he just bites and bites ... anything he can get him mouth on. He is totally full on, latching on to anything from your feet, legs, hands, etc ... and he bites really hard - if he is not on a leash then he is hard to control during this time. The only thing that controls these moments are crating him and walking away - offering up a bite toy doesn't seem to help in redirecting him.
> 
> He has excellent prey drive and plays on the rag and tug well. He toilets, comes and sits on command (except when he is having a psycho moment). Walking on a leash can range from excellent to him with the leash in his mouth and him trying to hanging off the end of the leash.
> 
> ...


On a scale of 1 to 10, your pant legs carry more points than a tug at the moment (for your puppy and virtually every puppy his age in the working dog World) that is because your pants move, they are more exciting than a tug toy and they are also easier to bite and when he bites them just right it makes you jump and scream which is even more fun. The easiest way to make the tug more attractive is to take points away from the pants legs. I would use a spray bottle of "bitter apple", or a solution of vinegar and water, or lemon juice and just give him a little blast in the face when he bites things you dont want him to bite, then give him the tug toy and encourage him to bite that. More than likely he will not bite bite the tug at that point and that is fine. What is most important is to make him stop biting your pants when you are walking, he can and will bite the tug when he is back tied and frustrated anyway, so dont worry about that.

Use food to get him to focus on you. Make sure he is hungry.....like very hungry (has not eaten for 24 hours or more) take him off leash in your back yard where there are not many distractions. Use a hot dog, tear off very small pieces and everytime he looks at you give him a piece of the hot dog, when he looks away, just ignore him and maybe even walk away from him. When he come back and looks at you again, give him a very small piece of the hot dog, over about a 10 minute period if he is hungry you will have fed him the whole hotdog and the first lesson is over. After a few of those sessions he will learn that direct eye contact with you is what triggers you to feed him......so really he is training you at this point

The you can begin to shape different behaviors....sit, down, recall, finish, heal, etc.

I am not good at explaining this type of stuff in text, but I hope you get the idea.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

mike suttle said:


> I would use a spray bottle of "bitter apple", or a solution of vinegar and water, or lemon juice and just give him a little blast in the face when he bites things you dont want him to bite, then give him the tug toy and encourage him to bite that. More than likely he will not bite bite the tug at that point and that is fine. What is most important is to make him stop biting your pants when you are walking, he can and will bite the tug when he is back tied and frustrated anyway, so dont worry about that.


That's funny.


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## Tilly Smith (May 6, 2009)

He has just had another pyscho moment towards the end of a play session - he started to slow down like he was getting tired and then just suddenly goes nuts. His eyes seem to go particularly white and he growls and snarls and seems to deliberately go for your hand rather then the toy - he actually pushed the toy out of the way to get to my hand.

I was a bit worried he wasn't getting enough stimulation for his levels of drive - is this possible?


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

More than likely what you are seeing is a puppy that is just not mature enough to deal with his drives. When this happens, it is best just to pick him up and put him in his crate. No emotion, just OK, time out.

Try real hard not to react to all of this, and you will see improvement in a few months as he learns to deal with what he is experiencing.

Cheat if you have to.


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## Tilly Smith (May 6, 2009)

Thanks Jeff - I have been crating him ... otherwise one of us ends up getting hurt (usually me).

He is a very smart dog. He was playing with a cardboard box wanting to put it away and chew it up but I had hold of one end of the box. When he realised I was holding it he came around and bite my hand to make me let go and then took off with the box. 

He seems to stop and look at the situation and then take a course of action to get him what he wants.

He has now even learnt how to open the doors on his crate - so I have to use clips to hold the doors closed.

I will keep going with working on his obedience training and development and so how he goes as he matures.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Good God, just do FR with the dang thing, and wear his overbearing ass out. LOL

We have some people here from that country somewhere who could help out with training. My luck you guys are half a continent away.


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## Tilly Smith (May 6, 2009)

lol ... I know he is going to make a brilliant security dog ... if he manages to live that long. 

I sometimes wonder why I go through this every 7 years or so. 

Maybe I will just buy a fully trained dog next time


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Cause It Is Fun. : )


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Nothing beats the expierience/fun of raising an over the top pup! :wink:


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I hang up a bite roll or similar on to my "press ups" bar which is jammed between the door jambs. 

I got the idea from a colleague who buys dogs for the army - he hung up tires in the kennel. His dogs bite everything he points to.

Crating is good but when the telephone rings, the hung up bite roll is godsend.


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## Anne Jones (Mar 27, 2006)

Just sounds like a wonderful drivey pup. I used walk around my house & yard with my female hanging off of me (anything that she could grab, pantlegs,bottom of sweatshirts etc). She would let go just to chase me to grab another bite. Enjoy the pup, it's only a baby for a short time.


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## virginia reed (Mar 10, 2009)

Mike - i think you're quite articulate. (you said you're not good at expressing yourself in print)

i enjoy reading your posts - good information.


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## Heath Ashment (Apr 7, 2009)

Sounds like my puppy the first few days that I had him, LOL! There's nothing like getting nailed on the bare ankle at 2:00am. It took me a few days, but I was finally able to redirect his biting to more appropriate things.


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## Karin Niessen (Feb 9, 2009)

Tilly Smith said:


> He has just had another pyscho moment towards the end of a play session - he started to slow down like he was getting tired and then just suddenly goes nuts. His eyes seem to go particularly white and he growls and snarls and seems to deliberately go for your hand rather then the toy - he actually pushed the toy out of the way to get to my hand.
> 
> I was a bit worried he wasn't getting enough stimulation for his levels of drive - is this possible?


This really sounds to me (but I'm not a real working dog expert, as I only have a small terrier) As a dog that has had too many stimulants and goes 'over the edge'. Like a small kid who has been to an amusement park all day, has had too many stimuli all day, is very, very tired, and therefore starts misbehaving (instead of being smart and going to sleep). 

The reaction to that is forcing the dog to take rest (in his crate for example), and give him less stimulation, instead of more...

But that's just my view of the problem...


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Almost every puppy that I see behaves this way. The original poster ask for ways to stop the behavior, which will go away on its own with age. But it can be stopped or at least redirected now if he really wants to do it. For me I just deal with and let it go away on its own. It is perfectly normal for puppies to do this, and it is no indication at all if the puppy is a good one or a total shitter (at that age the good ones and the shitters both do this)


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## kristin tresidder (Oct 23, 2008)

mike suttle said:


> After a few of those sessions he will learn that direct eye contact with you is what triggers you to feed him......so really he is training you at this point


 
and then you will be constantly tripping over the hatchling fur-dragon that's sitting in front of you, convinced he's the smartest thing in town; and searching for a handy quick-reward to give him, so that he can keep working you!


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## Guest (Aug 17, 2009)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> More than likely what you are seeing is a puppy that is just not mature enough to deal with his drives. When this happens, it is best just to pick him up and put him in his crate. No emotion, just OK, time out.
> 
> Try real hard not to react to all of this, and you will see improvement in a few months as he learns to deal with what he is experiencing.
> 
> Cheat if you have to.


I haven't read the whole thread but I thought I'd respond to this. It's actually better not to physically remove your pup for doing what he is doing unless he is about to remove a finger or a pound of flesh. The better thing to do is to (you) leave the area. You can yelp or not, it doesn't really matter the results will eventually be the same, but leave him alone and watch him out of the corner of your eye from where he cannot see you. When he is calm re-enter the area, call him over and hang out with him calmly until you are sure he is relaxed. If he is not, and freaks out again, leave the area and repeat. You do not want your pup to associate his crate or designated area as the place he goes when you pick him up or get pissed off or whatever. Just walk away... if you can get his teeth off your flesh! You want to teach your dog that he must control his bite. Do so through behavior he understands.


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Vin, it sounds like your experiencing a similar situation?


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: I haven't read the whole thread but I thought I'd respond to this. It's actually better not to physically remove your pup for doing what he is doing unless he is about to remove a finger or a pound of flesh.

Not really sure what you are talking about. So what I pick up the pup and put him in his crate ??

Who cares what the dog thinks as long as he does what he is asked ??

And lastly, as your opinion is straight out of a stupid pet forum, if all this is true, and precious is gonna have some sort of weird crate problem, then why is it my dogs go and sleep in their crates with the doors open ??

Other than the initial "I am not gonna fall for the treat in the crate thing" I have no problems with dogs and crates ever.

Really got to wonder where some of you get this stuff. Aren't you a pit person ?? I rarely see those pups bite real hard. I have more problems with them shooting up into my face than biting.


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## Kristina Senter (Apr 4, 2006)

Vin Chiu said:


> I haven't read the whole thread but I thought I'd respond to this. It's actually better not to physically remove your pup for doing what he is doing unless he is about to remove a finger or a pound of flesh. The better thing to do is to (you) leave the area. You can yelp or not, it doesn't really matter the results will eventually be the same, but leave him alone and watch him out of the corner of your eye from where he cannot see you. When he is calm re-enter the area, call him over and hang out with him calmly until you are sure he is relaxed. If he is not, and freaks out again, leave the area and repeat. You do not want your pup to associate his crate or designated area as the place he goes when you pick him up or get pissed off or whatever. Just walk away... if you can get his teeth off your flesh! You want to teach your dog that he must control his bite. Do so through behavior he understands.



From a behavioral standpoint, I completely disagree with this approach. "Through behavior he understands" is true....but have you even considered what behavior you are showing him so clearly? Do you enjoy role play as a weaker littermate?

Puppy or not, I never want my dog to view me as needing to leave the situation when he gets too rambunctious. "Yelping" on top of it??? Oh no. Why on earth would you want your puppy thinking of you as going into avoidance or retreat when you've had too much?
You don't want to overcorrect this behavior but its much better to remove the dog from the situation than let the dog remove you.


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## Guest (Aug 17, 2009)

Yeah, as you know I'm dealing with this right now ;-) and I love how any advice that contradicts Jeff's is deemed moronic and "pet". Who cares what my dogs think? I do. I've done it your way and I've done it my way and I do what works for me. I am not interested in being the "dominant" alpha. I am interested in a well behaved dog that will work when it needs to and relax when it needs to and is not a danger to society. I am interested in feeling safe around my dogs and knowing others are safe around my dogs. That does not mean my dogs rule the roost or boss me around. It means I am fair. I don't need to manhandle my dogs into crates to show them I am boss and me leaving the pup alone when it draws blood does not in any way transmit weakness. If you think it does, that says more about you than you want people to know. I don't know where you come up with this stuff. I don't even know why I'm responding to this fool who throws shoes at his dogs and laughs about it. Going through some threads it seems like Jeff has so many of you confounded by his often incoherent verbal diarrhea that you have no recourse but to grin and bear it or laugh right along for fear that he will lash out at you next. He's a bully who's trained some of you to submit to his idiocy just as he would his own dogs. Wake up. Just because dogs "work" doesn't mean they are not dogs. They live by the same set of basic rules any dog lives by. You use a crate for punishment that means the same thing to a working dog as it does to a pet. Unbelievable. You want to be obtuse, then don't read, don't experiment, don't think. Just do what that guy or that guy or that guy tells you to do because they scream loudest. In the end, it's your dog and your life, do what you feel is right, talk to who you want, listen to who you think gives you the best advice but there's no need to be an a&&hole.


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## Candy Eggert (Oct 28, 2008)

I think we need a little sense of humor ;-)~


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## Kristina Senter (Apr 4, 2006)

Vin Chiu said:


> I am not interested in being the "dominant" alpha.... That does not mean my dogs rule the roost or boss me around.


I don't mean to be rude, Vin, but if you are yelping and retreating from a dog when he bites you too hard, no matter what you'd like to think, they ARE bossing you around. Understand behavior if you're going to argue it. 



Vin Chiu said:


> me leaving the pup alone when it draws blood does not in any way transmit weakness. If you think it does, that says more about you than you want people to know.


What, exactly, does that say about me? That I understand if I leave the room yelping because a puppy bit me ,that shows the dog that he won? Ok...got me there. 
How is it that I'm suddenly trying to hide anything? Pretty poor job I'm doing, posting it on a public forum, and all. 

Crates are not punishment and no one said anything about "manhandling" their dogs into crates except you. You can use the crate as a "time out" for YOU, and as a purely management tool as far as the puppy is concerned. I did not say correct the puppy in any way, I just said don't let the puppy correct YOU.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

He is a bulldog guy. LOL 

There are thousands of pet smart trainers out there giving the same RETARD advice. We are outnumbered by morons. LOL

I just am not going to not comment on advice that sucks. Too bad if your feelings get hurt, did you cry every time you got an F in school ?? Or didn't get picked to play on the playground ??

That is how I see a lot of dog people.

I picked on Tim Bartlett, who I actually liked, and Sunday the little prissy club had people calling the guys I train with to come there and train.

Funny thing is the one guy gets off the phone, and tells me what they said, and then says why would I want to train with them ? So I can go up there and get ignored for another year ??

Prissy little elitist *******. Too bad they really can't train for shit. If only people really knew. LOL Maybe I will tell those stories one day. : )

Then, the sun was out, the day was pretty cool, and we worked all the dogs in OB and the jumps, and did some bitework. Turned out to be a great day.

**** em.


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

Vin Chiu said:


> I haven't read the whole thread ...


so please go back and read the whole thread before you pile in here with coments out of left field.


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

I have a SAR friend/teammate who raises puppies for a well-known guide dog training program here in CT. The advice Vin gave is exactly what they tell their puppy-raisers to do. 

This same friend tried the yelping reaction thing with my DS pup last week at training and it lit her up like a firecracker. I didn't realize what he was trying to do (I personally thought he was nuts) and the pup just kept ramping up her attack. According to him, it works for the guide dog pups, but it absolutely didn't have the "desired affect" for my pup. It just empowered her.


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## Kristina Senter (Apr 4, 2006)

Konnie Hein said:


> I have a SAR friend/teammate who raises puppies for a well-known guide dog training program here in CT. The advice Vin gave is exactly what they tell their puppy-raisers to do.
> 
> This same friend tried the yelping reaction thing with my DS pup last week at training and it lit her up like a firecracker. I didn't realize what he was trying to do (I personally thought he was nuts) and the pup just kept ramping up her attack. According to him, it works for the guide dog pups, but it absolutely didn't have the "desired affect" for my pup. It just empowered her.


I guess you have a point there, Konnie...if I had someone else raising my pup and wanted them to teach the pup that it could defeat people from a young age, it sounds like a great approach


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Kristina - I think Jeff mentioned that in another thread recently - giving a working pup to an unsuspecting submissive soul to raise, who will empower the pup from day one to create a heck of a confident dog. Doesn't sound like a bad plan! :-D


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## Kristina Senter (Apr 4, 2006)

Konnie Hein said:


> Kristina - I think Jeff mentioned that in another thread recently - giving a working pup to an unsuspecting submissive soul to raise, who will empower the pup from day one to create a heck of a confident dog. Doesn't sound like a bad plan! :-D


You're right! We should be convincing these people to buy real working dogs!


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Konnie Hein said:


> Kristina - I think Jeff mentioned that in another thread recently - giving a working pup to an unsuspecting submissive soul to raise, who will empower the pup from day one to create a heck of a confident dog. Doesn't sound like a bad plan! :-D


I've seen numerous terriers that became good working earth dogs after being recsued from overly permissive pet families.


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## Anna Kasho (Jan 16, 2008)

Kristina Senter said:


> You're right! We should be convincing these people to buy real working dogs!


Haha, that's great! =D>

I can inhibit puppies without even trying to... :-?

Back to the subject of this thread, ever seen a mature dog quiet a rambunctious puppy by simply going all still and dominant? Very interesting to watch. Yelping, running, trying to push the pup away, snarling and shoving, only makes it worse... At least with the kind of pups I've had so far.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Konnie Hein said:


> Kristina - I think Jeff mentioned that in another thread recently - giving a working pup to an unsuspecting submissive soul to raise, who will empower the pup from day one to create a heck of a confident dog. Doesn't sound like a bad plan! :-D


Letting a pup grow up free and not making a robot of it isn't a new concept, it wont work with all pups but with an open confident pup it will make you smile at the same time you wondered why you did it.

Everybody's different but I like to start with a pup and start to train around a year, I don't have a schedule.


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