# Malinois breeder/line suggestions for agility



## April Murray (Oct 1, 2011)

Hello there,

I'm a newbie and am looking for a malinois for an agility partner and may like to try some schutzhund - am looking for suggestions for lines or breeders who may be able to offer a temperament that would be ideal for this type of work. Any information would be most appreciated!

Thanks so much in advance,


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

I don't know of any breeders that are trying to produce Malinois for agility. But if I were looking for a dog for agility I would start looking at some of the bite sports drop outs. There are some super nice dogs out there that can't do the protection or can't do it at the level the handler wants that would make good agility prospects. 

A friend of mine, that's into agility, just told me that the majority of the top agility Malinois are are rescues with ILP numbers.


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## Leslie Patterson (Mar 6, 2008)

How about Mohawk Malinois? I don't know much about them but there are some dogs I like from there.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

What makes you think that Mohawk's dogs will be exceptional at agility?


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

I think his dog Jack would throw good agility dogs. Or maybe out of his female Nina (Jack daughter). I have seen pups out of 3 or 4 litters from Jack...all the pups were little Jacks. He throws himself. The traits I think would be good for agility; Jack is very biddible in OB. He's very fast, and has great retrieve drive. He will do everything he does as fast he can, even with a toy already in his mouth. Also, he has a Jolly additude. He's social.

His female Nina. I love that little girl. she's one of those special females. She has all the traits of her father. One thing I really like about her, she has very masculine body. It's very solid.

Ozzy is his other stud. Whom for me, I have yet to meet a Malinois with better nerve. He's bomb proof, less reactive than Jack. I like his protection qualities very much. I like dogs this for protection work. I have not seen much of his OB as he is an old man, I have only worked him protection. He has a son right now, I think is pretty special. I watched him let 3 pups out. That little pup picked up a ball, and 2 pups biting and hanging off him, he never diverted his attention from the Ball. This is what I am talking about Ozzy being bomb proof.

I was going to reccomend if you wanted to get a pup to contact John about a Jack pup.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Christopher Smith said:


> What makes you think that Mohawk's dogs will be exceptional at agility?


part owner in a litter perhaps??

jus kiddin


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I think any good, sound working line Mal could excel in agility.


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## catherine hardigan (Oct 12, 2009)

I'm not sure about lines being produced specifically for agility, however, you might contact Cheryl Carlson in Michigan (I do not have a dog from her). She has been breeding Mals longer than most, and her dogs have participated in about everything.

I think you could trust her to find an appropriate dog as long as you are honest about yourself and what you are looking for.

I'm sure there are many breeders out there worth investigating, but Cheryl would be a place to start.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

I would definitely check out American Belgian Malinois Rescue and the Lackland AFB military dog adoption program. They will both have high drive dogs that are not quite cut out for protection sport or military/police service, but that would likely do really well at agility. You may be able to get one that can do protection sport (especially from the people who bought a Mal and had no idea what they were getting). My female Malinois from ABMR was a failed foster. She's a club level dog who I kind of dink around with a bit in PSA (like I'll bring her out to teach a new handler how to hold a leash) and I'm working on her more now in herding, which she's doing nicely. She's got a limp from a neurological condition (non-painful) so I can't trial her in anything probably, but she's fun.  Looks like there's quite a few that might fit the bill on ABMR's site:

http://www.malinoisrescue.org/
http://www.lackland.af.mil/units/341stmwd/index.asp


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## Leslie Patterson (Mar 6, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> I think any good, sound working line Mal could excel in agility.


yes I agree, just get a good mal and it can do anything.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Bob Scott said:


> I think any good, sound working line Mal could excel in agility.


I agree with this, with the caveat that I'd take size into account. I wouldn't be looking at 80+ pound Malinois as the ideal agility candidate, a female or smaller male is going to be a better choice IMO. I run Nexxus in agility, she's about 23 inches (haven't actually wicketed her for height, just checked that she's under a specific height so we know what she jumps at) and 52-56 pounds. Small enough to navigate tighter courses, large enough to easily clear the jumps at 20-26 inches depending on venue and still be fast. When Cali was younger and we did a little agility, she had a harder time with the tight courses. 24-25 inches, and 70-75 lbs she tended to overshoot the turn spots on a course because of her stride and speed. Now that she's 12 and playing in agility again, she's much slower and doesn't have the issue with the tighter courses.

Just look for a dog with a good stable temperament, I'd avoid dogs/lines with a sharper temperament, it could be a PITA in the really crowded environment of some agility trials.


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## Lisa Brazeau (May 6, 2010)

Christopher Smith said:


> But if I were looking for a dog for agility I would start looking at some of the bite sports drop outs. There are some super nice dogs out there that can't do the protection or can't do it at the level the handler wants that would make good agility prospects.
> 
> A friend of mine, that's into agility, just told me that the majority of the top agility Malinois are are rescues with ILP numbers.


 
Hi April,

Chris's suggestion is the best! There are so many wonderful Mali's out there that are toy driven, but just don't have the gusto for bitework. A lot of times people will make a single purpose (detection) dog out of them. But everything you need for Agility is in there if they have toy drive. Contact some breeders and see if they have any washouts from sports. Many times they will give you the dog for free if you will be giving it a great home.


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## Marta Wajngarten (Jul 30, 2006)

I'll echo what every one else already said. I think you could do very well with a washout. Really just about any mal with high toy drive and good structure (not too bulky, fast and agile) will suit your purpose. 
If you're insisting on getting a puppy I know there is a thread out there about good working mal breeders, as long as you're up front with the breeder as to what you want the dog for I think you can't really go wrong with any of them. 
Don't get too hang up on lines, evaluate the individual dogs.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

You might want to decide how likely it is you will want to try Schutzhund, if you read the posts here you will see what I mean, almost everyone focused on the agility end of things, and mentioned sport/bite dog washouts. Which could be excellent agility prospects, but probably aren't the best Schutzhund prospects since they were already washed out of protection sports. If you are seriously considering trying Sch, that will need to be mentioned when looking at potential dogs, if it's just one of those "it sounds like fun, but chances are really good we'd never actually get around to giving it a shot" then a protection washout might be exactly what you really want/need.


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## April Murray (Oct 1, 2011)

All of this information is very helpful ! It will take a while to look everything over and then go from there. I will say that we are not comfortable going with a rescue per say, would prefer a puppy but not necessarily adverse to a breeder rehome. Just want to make sure we get the best start. I have nothing against rescue just not for us.


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## Christina Kennedy (Aug 25, 2010)

Any good working malinois should make a nice agility dog. Try to find a more stable nerved dog as the agility environment can be overstimulating. I agree that you should look for a smaller sized mal if possible. Stay away from 85+ pound parents.

One of the nicest malinois running in agility today is from barriques malinois although I am not sure they are still breeding?


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## Marta Wajngarten (Jul 30, 2006)

Christina Kennedy said:


> One of the nicest malinois running in agility today is from barriques malinois although I am not sure they are still breeding?


He's got a litter on the ground right now out of Gucci I think


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

April Murray said:


> All of this information is very helpful ! It will take a while to look everything over and then go from there. I will say that we are not comfortable going with a rescue per say, would prefer a puppy but not necessarily adverse to a breeder rehome. Just want to make sure we get the best start. I have nothing against rescue just not for us.


Curious why not? Most fosters for Malinois rescue are working and performance people and even breeders, so they are usually pretty honest if they think a dog would make a good agility prospect. Mals are fortunate (though that will be changing, no doubt) that you can find some working prospects in rescue and certainly performance prospects. If my female from rescue was trial-able, I'd probably work with her more than I do. :-\" And my God, she's fast. She's as fast as my male and would be faster without the neurological condition. Oh, if only...but we just train for fun instead. She's a nice learner herding dog for me, much much easier than my male. 

Anyways, I understand wanting to get a pup, but with an adult or an older pup (they have 6+ month old pups pretty frequently and even young ones), you can see their temperament better than a 8 week old. Just saying don't discount a nice dog from rescue because they may be exactly what you need. A breeder rehome may also be a sort of rescue. Some people will say anything to a breeder to get a pup, but then be way over their heads, same as a rescue.


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## April Murray (Oct 1, 2011)

Nervous of rescue because my doberman came not from rescue but from less than steller breeding and that breeding and intial upbringing has taken a lot of training and work to overcome nerves (always a work in progress) and health. I want to start out knowing exactly what went into the dog - lines, upbringing and health testing of parents - I need to not hear it - I need to see proof. Also big time importance is to see that the lines have had successful work from the parents and past generations - not just a should be good at because...... Proof is in the pudding so to speak. When dogsport is your hobby when you get home and what you look forward to at the end of the day I want to be able to start off on the right foot. I understand not all rescues are nerve bags that have been beaten - and yes breeder returns could be perfect for us - not ruling that one out because most of my check list is still a known entity. I know you can't guarantee a dog will turn out to be xyz but I think it's a fair desire for a newbie especially to start out on the best most solid footing.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

I understand. When I went to get a dog for a protection sport prospect, I went with a pup with protection sport lines because I wanted the greatest genetic chance of success, so I understand where you are coming from. That being said, just about any moderately high food or toy motivated dog that has decent nerves can make a nice agility dog. Lots of people have shelter dogs as agility dogs of many breeds. 

Don't take this the wrong way, but what has been your experience with Malinois (it will be something a good Malinois breeder will ask anyways)? Since this will be your first, have you been around them for extended periods of time? Most will not really recommend them as a first time working dog and they IMHO should not be "bred down" to be specifically for agility since there's already plenty of breeds who do that. This is kind of why I was thinking an older pup or young adult rescue may be a good fit. Especially since this will be your first Malinois, I actually would look at fostering one so you understand what they're about. Or if you know someone who has some, offer to dog sit while they are on vacation. Even fairly calm one will be at a much higher level than a Dobe. They don't call them the Ferrari of working dogs or German shepherds on speed for nothing! ;-)

Anyways, not trying to talk you in or out of anything, just trying to point out some options besides a puppy from a breeder. You might check out something like...

http://www.malinoisrescue.org/ncentral.shtml#Lacey or her brother
http://www.malinoisrescue.org/ncentral.shtml#Sonic


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## Lisa Brazeau (May 6, 2010)

Oh Man! Those two pups do look promising, Maren! I hope April gives them a call, at least....

Dobe's are known for their health issues and weirdo quirks. I'm not doggin' them down. I LOVE dobies. 

No puppy is guaranteed to be healthy, even with health tested parents. Since mals tend to have less congenital issues, I know I wouldn't have a problem rescuing one if I wanted to do agility with it.

I'm not against breeding, either. If you want to do bitework, a puppy is your best bet.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Lisa Brazeau said:


> Dobe's are known for their ......weirdo quirks.


Where'd you get that idea from? ;-)


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## Lisa Radcliffe (Jun 9, 2011)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> I understand. When I went to get a dog for a protection sport prospect, I went with a pup with protection sport lines because I wanted the greatest genetic chance of success, so I understand where you are coming from. That being said, just about any moderately high food or toy motivated dog that has decent nerves can make a nice agility dog. Lots of people have shelter dogs as agility dogs of many breeds.
> 
> Don't take this the wrong way, but what has been your experience with Malinois (it will be something a good Malinois breeder will ask anyways)? Since this will be your first, have you been around them for extended periods of time? Most will not really recommend them as a first time working dog and they IMHO should not be "bred down" to be specifically for agility since there's already plenty of breeds who do that. This is kind of why I was thinking an older pup or young adult rescue may be a good fit. Especially since this will be your first Malinois, I actually would look at fostering one so you understand what they're about. Or if you know someone who has some, offer to dog sit while they are on vacation. Even fairly calm one will be at a much higher level than a Dobe. They don't call them the Ferrari of working dogs or German shepherds on speed for nothing! ;-)
> 
> ...


"even fairly calm one will be at a much higher level than a dobe" Just curious Maren how many working/sport dobermanns have you seen?


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

I think the most I've seen at any one single club I've trained with are three and there are of course the ones I've seen and interacted with at various PSA and Schutzhund trials. So I've probably seen at least a dozen or so from either working or mixed lines and seen both club level dogs and national level dogs (my favorite being Scott N.'s Caesar). Both my Malinois are pretty calm...for a Malinois. :lol: But not as calm as any Dobe I've ever seen, sport or otherwise. And again, that's not me bashing the Dobe (I like them fine, but they're not just not my breed). But you take the average Dobe and the average Mal...yeah, there's a big difference. Their screws just are wound a little tighter. ;-) On a whole breed level, there's arguably not a more high drive dog than a Mal, so it's just something to realize if the OP has had limited experience with Mals before.

What's been your experience with both, Lisa?


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

I've been fostering this boy for a couple months now and he's got a great temperament, dog friendly, good with children and listens well off leash. Just mentioning him if anyone is looking. I respect that the OP wants to start with a pup and already mentioned to her when answering a private email.

http://www.pawsnclaws.us/needhomes.htm


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

" On a whole breed level, there's arguably not a more high drive dog than a Mal"

Lots of terriers....and I've had both! ;-)


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## Lisa Radcliffe (Jun 9, 2011)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> I think the most I've seen at any one single club I've trained with are three and there are of course the ones I've seen and interacted with at various PSA and Schutzhund trials. So I've probably seen at least a dozen or so from either working or mixed lines and seen both club level dogs and national level dogs (my favorite being Scott N.'s Caesar). Both my Malinois are pretty calm...for a Malinois. :lol: But not as calm as any Dobe I've ever seen, sport or otherwise. And again, that's not me bashing the Dobe (I like them fine, but they're not just not my breed). But you take the average Dobe and the average Mal...yeah, there's a big difference. Their screws just are wound a little tighter. ;-) On a whole breed level, there's arguably not a more high drive dog than a Mal, so it's just something to realize if the OP has had limited experience with Mals before.
> 
> What's been your experience with both, Lisa?


I am not comparing the mali and the dobermann here!! But I find your remarks refurring to them as "calm" a bit off to say the least. As far as agility goes dobermanns can and do excel at it! they are very athletic and have a lot of energy. I have had 7 dobermanns over the last 25 years and I would not claim one to ever have been "calm" but then maybe your definition of calm is different than mine. Caeser looks like a super dog from his videos but calm is not what I see in the video, but there is a good chance he has it all  As far as my experience with Mali's I have seen quite a few in sport and have friends who train them in sport and police work who I have learned a lot from. I have been looking at lines and dogs for sometime now and when I find the one I want I'll get one! I like all dogs and do not have rose colored glasses on for any breed they all have their issues, but to lable the dobermann as a "calm" breed I have yet to see one, unless I tell them to calm


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

LOL, I'm not comparing them to a bassett hound or something or saying they are no good at performance/working sport, I'm just saying they are as a breed more calm than your average Malinois. Many Malinois are wound just a little too tight, which I have not found to be the case with most Dobes. That's specifically one reason I like my two Mals. They are pretty calm...for Malinois. ;-) Like I said, there's a reason they call them the Ferrari of the working dogs. 

And I'll disagree with Bob's statement at least in the context of bitework sport as I have about zero interest in terrier sports. Don't see too many terriers doing bitework to the level Malinois can do. They're not my favorite breed either (I actually like Dutchies and Rottweilers more), but they are what's winning now, eh? There has not yet been a breed other than a Mal to get to PSA 3 in 10 years of the sport. Though Caesar the Dobe is trying.


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## April Murray (Oct 1, 2011)

Lisa Radcliffe said:


> I am not comparing the mali and the dobermann here!! But I find your remarks refurring to them as "calm" a bit off to say the least. As far as agility goes dobermanns can and do excel at it! they are very athletic and have a lot of energy. I have had 7 dobermanns over the last 25 years and I would not claim one to ever have been "calm" but then maybe your definition of calm is different than mine. Caeser looks like a super dog from his videos but calm is not what I see in the video, but there is a good chance he has it all  As far as my experience with Mali's I have seen quite a few in sport and have friends who train them in sport and police work who I have learned a lot from. I have been looking at lines and dogs for sometime now and when I find the one I want I'll get one! I like all dogs and do not have rose colored glasses on for any breed they all have their issues, but to lable the dobermann as a "calm" breed I have yet to see one, unless I tell them to calm



could not agree more. Have a group of friends and we all have dobermans - not one is what we would think of is calm. This is regardless of malinois energy but I'm pretty sure having doberman or working dog exposure as opposed to say living with a show line labrador or golden is a lot closer to the malinois. No one two breeds are going to be the same - it's apples and oranges. That is why their are different breeds - something for most everyone.
I'm up to the challenge.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

April Murray said:


> No one two breeds are going to be the same - it's apples and oranges. That is why their are different breeds - something for most everyone.
> I'm up to the challenge.


Dogs vary as well, breeds are a guideline, individuals vary..even in the "breeds"


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## Tracy Davis-Sullivan (May 10, 2010)

I have to say that if you want to stack the deck for being able to compete in agility - an older pup in rescue or breeder re-home would be the best option.

At that age, you can do a hip/elbow x-ray and get a good prelim. More importantly, the dog will be much more WYSIWYG. Is toy/tug drive there? Does the dog help itself to a little backyard agility for fun? love to jump and run? flexible? biddable? 

We have friends who are training their 2yo Lab in flyball with us. If they came to me in 6 months and wanted to add a 2nd dog, this would be my suggestion to them as well. I want them to have a successful dog and it's not hard to find a tugging, biddable older puppy in rescue around here. In fact, I have a friend with a good eye for these dogs in shelters. She's got a foster that needs a serious sport home that's already popping off 20+ foot jumps in dock diving.


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## Jake Brandyberry (Jan 24, 2010)

Maren you are a confusing control with calm in Ceasar's case.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Come on now, guys...I'm not calling Caesar a semi comatose slug. :razz: I really like him a lot and I'm pulling for him to get his 3. But the whole point of me posting on this thread is so April knows what she is getting into. No one likes to see a dog end up in a shelter/rescue (not saying you'd do this, April) or rehomed because they were much more difficult than the owner thought and because no one told them that they _can be_ difficult to live with. I stand by what I said and recommend that she foster one or dog sit for one if she hasn't. That's all...


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## Lisa Radcliffe (Jun 9, 2011)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> LOL, I'm not comparing them to a bassett hound or something or saying they are no good at performance/working sport, I'm just saying they are as a breed more calm than your average Malinois. Many Malinois are wound just a little too tight, which I have not found to be the case with most Dobes. That's specifically one reason I like my two Mals. They are pretty calm...for Malinois. ;-) Like I said, there's a reason they call them the Ferrari of the working dogs.
> 
> And I'll disagree with Bob's statement at least in the context of bitework sport as I have about zero interest in terrier sports. Don't see too many terriers doing bitework to the level Malinois can do. They're not my favorite breed either (I actually like Dutchies and Rottweilers more), but they are what's winning now, eh? There has not yet been a breed other than a Mal to get to PSA 3 in 10 years of the sport. Though Caesar the Dobe is trying.


As far as the number of PSA3 dogs go I am not sure the reason for the mali being the only breed to title to a three has anything to do with the breed, but more a lack of clubs. No PSA clubs were I am at but there has been talk of starting one. If so I am in for sure with my young male dobermann I like the sport! Maren do you know the total number of PSA3 titled dogs in the last 10 years?


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Lisa Radcliffe said:


> As far as the number of PSA3 dogs go I am not sure the reason for the mali being the only breed to title to a three has anything to do with the breed, but more a lack of clubs. No PSA clubs were I am at but there has been talk of starting one. If so I am in for sure with my young male dobermann I like the sport! Maren do you know the total number of PSA3 titled dogs in the last 10 years?


I think it does have at least a little something to do with breed...just like there isn't many breeds besides the Malinois in the upper level of French Ring or Mondio either. There's a couple other breeds in the PSA 1s and 2s, including Dobes, Dutchies, and GSDs, so someone will do it soon, no doubt! With PSA at the higher levels, it's about the control and that can be difficult. Haven't been training in PSA long (only about a year and a half), but just what I've heard. Here's a partial list of those who have gotten PSA 3 (not complete though, Ariel P. and her dog Blitzen aren't up there) in the sport's 10 year history:

http://psak9.org/psa_greats/psa_greats.htm

Definitely see if you can get a club going and let anybody in the organization know if you need help. People want to see it grow. It's very fun! ;-)


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## Marta Wajngarten (Jul 30, 2006)

Oh Geezz.. what are we going to hear next, that there aren't that many dobermans in protections sports or working because they are too smart for it? The lack of dobes in sports is not because of lack of venues. 

I really don't think Maren was calling the dobes lazy or slow or laid back, she was simply saying that compared to the average mal the average dobe is lower energy/edge. Don't get all sensitive that people are putting down the dobes because I really don't think Maren is doing that. 

Yes there are some high strung dobes, but on average if you take a sample of 100 dobes from various backgrounds (work or show, euro or NA) I don't think you will find they are on par with the energy level and edginess of the average mal. M's statement is a very fair and realistic one to make especially in the context of informing some one who has no mal experience and is about to get one. If OP's current experience is with a non working dobe possibly on the lower end of drive for the breed and she is looking for a high drive sport quality mal, I think it's fair to say are you sure you know what you're wishing for. And BTW, the OP herself said she is looking for a mal and not another dobe, if you want to make the any dobes can do it all arguments I think you should be directing them at the OP instead of Maren as if this was some thing she said.


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## Lisa Radcliffe (Jun 9, 2011)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> I think it does have at least a little something to do with breed...just like there isn't many breeds besides the Malinois in the upper level of French Ring or Mondio either. There's a couple other breeds in the PSA 1s and 2s, including Dobes, Dutchies, and GSDs, so someone will do it soon, no doubt! With PSA at the higher levels, it's about the control and that can be difficult. Haven't been training in PSA long (only about a year and a half), but just what I've heard. Here's a partial list of those who have gotten PSA 3 (not complete though, Ariel P. and her dog Blitzen aren't up there) in the sport's 10 year history:
> 
> http://psak9.org/psa_greats/psa_greats.htm
> 
> Definitely see if you can get a club going and let anybody in the organization know if you need help. People want to see it grow. It's very fun! ;-)


Thanks for the link Maren. I was there a year or so ago and could not get the info looks like they have up dated it. 12 dogs from 03-09 competed for a PSA3 if I have it right. A pitbull also titled. Many other breeds for 1 and 2 also. I guess as far as you comment on "higher levels" I consider all PSA high levels!! LOL FR and Mondio  of course the Mali is king!!


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## April Murray (Oct 1, 2011)

I am realistic that this a different kettle of fish than my doberman but thanks for trying to ensure that people are aware of what they are getting into. In my situation I am desiring that extra mojo - call me crazy but a dog with high drive and work ethic is what I am after. I am not looking for another unbalanced dog who was not bred for work. We learn through experience what we are looking for and what we do not want. What I started this for was for a recommendation of breeders that may be good for a balanced working dog for a new person to the sport and I have gotten a lot of that. Thanks! I appreciate it! I have also been speaking to a friend that is involved in schutzhund and have support that way in terms of getting my feet wet in that area. Certainly not looking to start a breed argument - which by the way - when I compare I'm just stating in that yes I am used to a go go go dog. Not mal vs doberman big picture discussion.

Hope no one was offended by my questions and trying to learn.


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## Lisa Radcliffe (Jun 9, 2011)

Marta Wajngarten said:


> Oh Geezz.. what are we going to hear next, that there aren't that many dobermans in protections sports or working because they are too smart for it? The lack of dobes in sports is not because of lack of venues.
> 
> I really don't think Maren was calling the dobes lazy or slow or laid back, she was simply saying that compared to the average mal the average dobe is lower energy/edge. Don't get all sensitive that people are putting down the dobes because I really don't think Maren is doing that.
> 
> Yes there are some high strung dobes, but on average if you take a sample of 100 dobes from various backgrounds (work or show, euro or NA) I don't think you will find they are on par with the energy level and edginess of the average mal. M's statement is a very fair and realistic one to make especially in the context of informing some one who has no mal experience and is about to get one. If OP's current experience is with a non working dobe possibly on the lower end of drive for the breed and she is looking for a high drive sport quality mal, I think it's fair to say are you sure you know what you're wishing for. And BTW, the OP herself said she is looking for a mal and not another dobe, if you want to make the any dobes can do it all arguments I think you should be directing them at the OP instead of Maren as if this was some thing she said.


 Line suggestions- That was what the OP was asking for. Not what the tempermant of a Mali is or what it would be like to live with one or the energy of one. Unless I got it wrong here, also Breeders. From what I have learned from my Mali friends/breeders different LINES bring some different things to the table. I thought that was what she was looking for! not a lecture on the Mali in general. Not sure why other breeds were brought in here (dobermann) but if someone says they know all about the Mali but makes a statement about a breed being "Calm" if comparing or not. It makes me wonder. Not being "sensitive" about the dobermann don't need to be. If someone asked for advice on a dobermann or lines "calm" would not come to mind no matter what breed it was compared too. The other poster got it right here "Breeds are a guidline" I would love to hear some posts about the different Mali Lines to anwser the OP's question?? Any Mali lines mentioned by names that people know show differences, or should the OP just go with " a good mali can do it all "


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## April Murray (Oct 1, 2011)

Thanks for the above quote. Lets just get to the business of lines/temperment/breeders - who has ones from which lines and what do they offer.

Thanks!


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## Tammy St. Louis (Feb 17, 2010)

Ok < I have a malinois , he will be 2yrs in Jan. he does agility and LOVES it and is super fast , 
He is from Female, Sasha, Geoff Empey, and male , Juice <Konnie Hein, 

he is social and and very good worker, excels in every sport he has done so far, 
Ring sport, Dog sledding, Dock Diving, agility . and herding , 

here is a video taken a month or 2 ago , just at my training classes , 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V7xOH0wAqK4


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Marta Wajngarten said:


> Oh Geezz.. what are we going to hear next, that there aren't that many dobermans in protections sports or working because they are too smart for it? The lack of dobes in sports is not because of lack of venues.
> 
> I really don't think Maren was calling the dobes lazy or slow or laid back, she was simply saying that compared to the average mal the average dobe is lower energy/edge. Don't get all sensitive that people are putting down the dobes because I really don't think Maren is doing that.
> 
> Yes there are some high strung dobes, but on average if you take a sample of 100 dobes from various backgrounds (work or show, euro or NA) I don't think you will find they are on par with the energy level and edginess of the average mal. M's statement is a very fair and realistic one to make especially in the context of informing some one who has no mal experience and is about to get one. If OP's current experience is with a non working dobe possibly on the lower end of drive for the breed and she is looking for a high drive sport quality mal, I think it's fair to say are you sure you know what you're wishing for. And BTW, the OP herself said she is looking for a mal and not another dobe, if you want to make the any dobes can do it all arguments I think you should be directing them at the OP instead of Maren as if this was some thing she said.


Thanks Marta, that's exactly what I was trying to say. Dog people do tend to be like their favorite breed and Dobes are known for being rather sensitive. ;-) I'm a Rottweiler person at heart, so take that for what you will. :-D Everyone knows there is individual variation in breeds. That's obvious. You can have a couch potato Mal or an insane firecracker Dobe, but it's just not what each is known for. 

April, I have had purebred Mals for nearly 5 years and a Mal/GSD X before that (which I know is not super long time), but trust me, if you get one, you get very wary of even telling every dingbat average Joe and Jane Q. Public what breed they are because they are not a breed for casual or novice owners. I've been told my male is pretty good looking (my female has more the GSD/greyhound buggy eyed look, LOL), so I get a lot of questions when he's out in public. My husband started telling people "oh yeah, he's the same breed as the one they used in SEAL team 6." I begged him to stop saying that! ](*,) While I appreciate why you might want one, what has been your experience with them?

Lisa, I do feel a responsibility to educate folks on what they may be getting (like I said, none of like seeing dogs end up in shelter/rescue because they weren't given some experience on the breed) and compare them to what they are used to. I think if she just wants a nice agility dog that can dabble in Schutzhund, the lines are not super critical as long as you be careful with the really really intense or volatile lines that may be challenging even for experienced Malinois owners, let alone new folks. Even the show lines (ugh...) can produce dogs for agility, rally, maybe some herding. And as has been mentioned, you can get nice ones from rescue. So my humble opinion would again to go for a responsible bite sport breeder washout older pup or a tested rescue. Again, most people who foster for AMBR have experience in performance sport, so if you talked to them, they could give you an honest assessment too.

Linewise, my female is a rescue of unknown origin (though I think I might know which breeder she might come from). If she didn't have the neurological condition, she'd be a great performance dog for agility and she's a good herding dog to learn on. She's got a civil side, though her grip is not very full, so I don't work her often in PSA. She would be good with a first time Mal owner (but not a first time dog owner).

My male comes from Kadi T's Dantero "O" litter (Mac x Chaos). He does very well at dock diving and disc. Haven't tried formal agility with him, but assume he'd be fine. Pretty biddable, but is still occasionally in the "what's in it for me" camp. Has a couple Schutzhund titles (or certificates or whatever) and we're working on getting there in PSA. Not sure how far I'll be able to take him in that because of inconsistent decoy work, but no big deal. High food drive, even high toy drive. Great hunt drive, social to selectively social in public, good in the house, good with most females and very easy going males and even tolerant of cats!  OFA Good hips, elbows normal, CERF, cardiac clear, degenerative myelopathy free. Best dog I've owned, but he probably would not be good for a first time Mal owner (unless they had experience with very high drive working dogs of other breeds).


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## Erica Boling (Jun 17, 2008)

I had Dobes for more than 11 years, and I decided I wanted more drive and more intensity. So I got my first Malinois (working lines) two years ago, and I couldn't be happier with my decision. I will admit that having a Malinois has challenged me in ways that I have never before been challenged while owning dogs, but I've always been a person up for a challenge. I also had a great support system through my training group, and that also made a huge difference. I could have searched for the right working line Dobe, but I figured I'd go with the Malinois since I still have one Dobe at home.... so I now have one of each.  In a way, my Dobe has more energy than my Malinois... but it's a very different type of energy. She has more nervous/twitchy energy while my Mal has tons more intensity, especially in his work. I'm not saying that all Dobes or all Malinois are this way.. but this is what I've experienced with my own dogs. And trust me, I certainly got my fair share of "warnings" when people heard I wanted a Malinois. One of my obedience trainers thought I was totally crazy for wanting a Malinois, and she tried to talk me out of it a number of times. After getting Bacci, I stopped training with her and turned to French Ring. 

By the way, my Malinois is very big and powerful but not super agile or fast (compared to some of the smaller Malinois). So whatever line you choose, I wouldn't recommend a 85+ pound Malinois that's the size of a Great Dane. (Just joking.. but people did tease us when Bacci was young saying he looked like a Great Dane.) Bacci is out of Bogan des Ombres Valeureux x Jumanji du Loups du Soleil.

Oh, and I know Konnie Hein's dog Juice. OMG, that dog is SUPER scary fast!



April Murray said:


> I am realistic that this a different kettle of fish than my doberman but thanks for trying to ensure that people are aware of what they are getting into. In my situation I am desiring that extra mojo - call me crazy but a dog with high drive and work ethic is what I am after. I am not looking for another unbalanced dog who was not bred for work. We learn through experience what we are looking for and what we do not want. What I started this for was for a recommendation of breeders that may be good for a balanced working dog for a new person to the sport and I have gotten a lot of that. Thanks! I appreciate it! I have also been speaking to a friend that is involved in schutzhund and have support that way in terms of getting my feet wet in that area. Certainly not looking to start a breed argument - which by the way - when I compare I'm just stating in that yes I am used to a go go go dog. Not mal vs doberman big picture discussion.
> 
> Hope no one was offended by my questions and trying to learn.


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## Erica Boling (Jun 17, 2008)

I just had a brain fart, April! LOL I just realized I already chatted w/you on our other forum. I already messaged you some info on breeders. I was just now getting ready to private message you and then made the connection. Ugh... Don't think I've been getting enough sleep. Brain is running a bit slow today. Welcome to Working Dog Forum!


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## Lisa Radcliffe (Jun 9, 2011)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Thanks Marta, that's exactly what I was trying to say. Dog people do tend to be like their favorite breed and Dobes are known for being rather sensitive. ;-) I'm a Rottweiler person at heart, so take that for what you will. :-D Everyone knows there is individual variation in breeds. That's obvious. You can have a couch potato Mal or an insane firecracker Dobe, but it's just not what each is known for.
> 
> April, I have had purebred Mals for nearly 5 years and a Mal/GSD X before that (which I know is not super long time), but trust me, if you get one, you get very wary of even telling every dingbat average Joe and Jane Q. Public what breed they are because they are not a breed for casual or novice owners. I've been told my male is pretty good looking (my female has more the GSD/greyhound buggy eyed look, LOL), so I get a lot of questions when he's out in public. My husband started telling people "oh yeah, he's the same breed as the one they used in SEAL team 6." I begged him to stop saying that! ](*,) While I appreciate why you might want one, what has been your experience with them?
> 
> ...


"dog people do tend to be like their favorite breed and dobes are known for being rather sensitive" Ok Maren I can't make sense of this mumbo jumbo and the OP was not looking for someone to educate her on mals and all the other responsibility you feel a need to get out. But it sounds like at the end of your post you are making a breeder/mali line recommendation? Dantero Kennel? Good... I happen to know the dogs lines (Mac x Chaos) so the OP would do very well to go to Kadi's website look up the lines and talk to Kadi about her dogs and her lines What a super start!! and the breeder can help her with what kind of a mali is right for her. I think she stated she wanted a puppy. That is why she started her post and thought this forum might be a good place ask. Mali breeder and line suggestions.


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## Lisa Radcliffe (Jun 9, 2011)

Tammy St. Louis said:


> Ok < I have a malinois , he will be 2yrs in Jan. he does agility and LOVES it and is super fast ,
> He is from Female, Sasha, Geoff Empey, and male , Juice <Konnie Hein,
> 
> he is social and and very good worker, excels in every sport he has done so far,
> ...


 Thats a nice dog with a lot to say  much fun to you in your training super!!


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Lisa Radcliffe said:


> "dog people do tend to be like their favorite breed and dobes are known for being rather sensitive" Ok Maren I can't make sense of this mumbo jumbo and the OP was not looking for someone to educate her on mals and all the other responsibility you feel a need to get out. But it sounds like at the end of your post you are making a breeder/mali line recommendation? Dantero Kennel? Good... I happen to know the dogs lines (Mac x Chaos) so the OP would do very well to go to Kadi's website look up the lines and talk to Kadi about her dogs and her lines What a super start!! and the breeder can help her with what kind of a mali is right for her. I think she stated she wanted a puppy. That is why she started her post and thought this forum might be a good place ask. Mali breeder and line suggestions.


Just making a little quip about Dobe people, that's all. ;-) People make quips about Rottie people too, so doesn't bother me. 

Doesn't matter to me if that's not specifically what she asked for. I get people ask me in real life pretty frequently "where did you get your dogs? I'd like a dog like thatj!" My first response to pet people is "no, you wouldn't." I'm not going to recommend them without reservation unless they are working dog people who understand what a Mal is about. Undue popularity and accolades of this breed to novice dog owners who don't know their downsides will not serve the breed in the slightest. April has still not indicated what her experience with this breed is. Am still interested to hear it.


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## Anna Kasho (Jan 16, 2008)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Doesn't matter to me if that's not specifically what she asked for. I get people ask me in real life pretty frequently "where did you get your dogs? I'd like a dog like thatj!" My first response to pet people is "no, you wouldn't." I'm not going to recommend them without reservation unless they are working dog people who understand what a Mal is about. Undue popularity and accolades of this breed to novice dog owners who don't know their downsides will not serve the breed in the slightest. April has still not indicated what her experience with this breed is. Am still interested to hear it.


Love it when someone gets a whatever animal, and suddenly gets this attitude that no one else should get this selfsame animal without a thorough grilling/lecturing, because after all, no one else can do it as good as them... Ahem.

To put in my 2 cents to the OP... I don't have a specific line to recommend, but I'd stay away from overly large dogs, or overly upright long-legged structure, and possibly choose a female. As a very very general sorta thing, I have seen more females that are body aware and more careful where they put their feet, where the males tended to barrel through things without a second thought. You can see this in puppies from a fairly young age - some puppies crash through, some climb under/over stuff... Also a biddable temperament, focused on people, interactive and retrieving stuff, I think would be an asset for agility.

After that it's all about training, do what I say to earn what you want. LOL


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## April Murray (Oct 1, 2011)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Just making a little quip about Dobe people, that's all. ;-) People make quips about Rottie people too, so doesn't bother me.
> 
> Doesn't matter to me if that's not specifically what she asked for. I get people ask me in real life pretty frequently "where did you get your dogs? I'd like a dog like thatj!" My first response to pet people is "no, you wouldn't." I'm not going to recommend them without reservation unless they are working dog people who understand what a Mal is about. Undue popularity and accolades of this breed to novice dog owners who don't know their downsides will not serve the breed in the slightest. April has still not indicated what her experience with this breed is. Am still interested to hear it.


 
My experience is by observing with a friend at schutzhund and by ring stewarding at obedience trials and talking to the owners, watching the dogs work, seeing them come off the field. I have now talked to quite a few breeders and have been honest with my experiences with my dog and with what I know about the breed. I am not looking for world beater schutzhund dog. I am looking for an entry to the breed and I by the way since you mentioned it before - I don't return dogs or surrender them to shelters after you assume I get myself in over my head. I am up for the challenge, I have been doing my reading and I have no problem asking stupid questions and learning as I go. I want to be challenged, I want to learn, I am here to learn. There is always someone who knows more than you do and so on - isn't that why the internet and forums like these are so useful? So people who normally may never meet can share information hard learned. I understand trying to educate and help people out but I am beginning to feel singled out. I am here so that I can make the most educated decision in finding a malinois for my needs. I think this is the place to do that.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Anna Kasho said:


> Love it when someone gets a whatever animal, and suddenly gets this attitude that no one else should get this selfsame animal without a thorough grilling/lecturing, because after all, no one else can do it as good as them... Ahem.


Nothing to do with that. So do you feel as a general rule they are a good breed for a first timer who's never trained in agility before?


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Nothing to do with that. So do you feel as a general rule they are a good breed for a first timer who's never trained in agility before?


Any breed is a good breed for a first timer in agility .


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

> My experience is by observing with a friend at schutzhund and by ring stewarding at obedience trials and talking to the owners, watching the dogs work, seeing them come off the field. I have now talked to quite a few breeders and have been honest with my experiences with my dog and with what I know about the breed. I am not looking for world beater schutzhund dog. I am looking for an entry to the breed and I by the way since you mentioned it before - I don't return dogs or surrender them to shelters* after you assume I get myself in over my head*.


My earlier comment:



Maren Bell Jones said:


> But the whole point of me posting on this thread is so April knows what she is getting into. No one likes to see a dog end up in a shelter/rescue *(not saying you'd do this, April)* or rehomed because they were much more difficult than the owner thought and because no one told them that they _can be_ difficult to live with. I stand by what I said and recommend that she foster one or dog sit for one if she hasn't. That's all...


That's good you've seen the dogs working. But it's not necessarily the fact that they don't work "correctly" that ends up with them going into rescue or a rehome. It's more what they are like off the training field that makes them more difficult. They can be a joy to train, but they're not always a joy to live with. As I suggested, ask some of these folks who own them if you can dog sit for them for a weekend. If you want to make an informed decision, which is great, that'd be a great way to do it. Then if you decide you really like them...perfect! If it doesn't work out, that's okay too. Way better than committing to a puppy. 

I started out with a Maladjusted (Mal/GSD X) that was a shelter dog. I didn't know when I got him that's what he was and that's not what I was looking for, but that's what happened. Then about two years later, I ended up keeping a purebred female from Malinois rescue. Then after that, I ended up with a very high drive pup from nice lines. It was nice getting a gradual introduction to the breed and knowing what to expect, that's all.



> I am up for the challenge, I have been doing my reading and I have no problem asking stupid questions and learning as I go. I want to be challenged, I want to learn, I am here to learn. There is always someone who knows more than you do and so on - isn't that why the internet and forums like these are so useful? So people who normally may never meet can share information hard learned. I understand trying to educate and help people out but I am beginning to feel singled out. I am here so that I can make the most educated decision in finding a malinois for my needs. I think this is the place to do that.


Don't feel singled out. You're just getting honest and direct advice from people who have owned them, which is hopefully what you wanted. I would much prefer someone ask questions beforehand than remain silent and then get totally in over their heads. I always commend people for researching as much as they possibly can beforehand.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

maggie fraser said:


> Any breed is a good breed for a first timer in agility .


An interesting perspective from Francis M...



> Hard Dogs, Soft Arts: If you think a Malinois is perfect for Agility, Rally, Obedience, or Herding, think again. Be smart and get a Border Collie. Border Collies are ideal dogs for sports not requiring bite work. Malinois are designed for Hard Arts like: French Ring, Belgian Ring, Mondioring, Schutzhund and KNPV. Sure, they also excel in non-bitework competitions. But drive-building, grip-development, and stimulus-control techniques make the Malinois Temperment complete.


http://bayareadogtrainer.wordpress....ican-public-belgian-malinois-look-dont-touch/


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

I got a Malinois 6 years ago because I wanted one. Always had dogs, had some high energy dogs and a couple of GSD security dogs at various times, but had never even been around a mal. The breeder I contacted first told me that he bred too much dog for what I wanted, which was an active pet dog. Then emailed me later and said he had a pup for me. So I got a puppy. 

I had no goals for my pup... but at 18 months I realized my 'pet quality' dog was capable of doing something, so I started in schutzhund. Over the last couple of years I did a bunch of other stuff with him, just because I could and because it was fun and also because soundness issues have made pursuing titles in bitework not possible.

I realize that a Mal is not for everyone, but to a committed dog owner with an interest in doing some kind of training, it shouldn't be that big of a challenge. My mal is really easy to live with and has always had free run of the house, even when still a pup. Admittedly, he is not a take everywhere kind of dog who can just chill and hang out, but so are a lot of dogs.

I'm sure Maren is just trying to make sure you have as complete an idea of what you're getting into as possible. They're not easy dogs, but for me, my mal is a whole lot of crazy fun. That's a good thing.


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## Jennifer Bale-O'Connell (Apr 29, 2008)

Well, can I draw a distinction between 'rescue' and 'washout'? I have a USAR washout that I picked up at 11mos. She was never in the rescue system nor in danger of not having a home, but she wasn't suited for search & rescue (her intended purpose). For a first-time Malinois owner, this was ideal. Trix was raised by people who knew what they were doing, and I got this fabulous dog without any of the puppy crap. She was socialized and her training started by people with far more experience than me and she's awesome. So I would urge you to not wholesale write off the idea of a washout or rehome. 

And not to beat a dead horse (too late?) but in addition to Trixie (and Dave the foster Malinois) I have a Dobe from American working lines (parents have Sch titles). The Dobe is a high-drive dog that will run the entire house if left to his own devices, yes, but he's several cars back on the crazy train from the Mals. It's a totally different sort of drive, in my experience. It wasn't until after we got the Mal that we had to institute the "adult must be present to play ball with the dog(s)" rule, for example.

As far as Malinois in agility, have you read _Purely Positive Training_ by Sheila Booth? She ran a very nice Mal very successfully in agility and had some thoughts about the breed in the book. 

Also, SpringFalls breeds some (generally) smaller, faster Malinois for flyball and agility. Francine Segreti is breeding her awesome SpringFalls male Z28 soon, I can give you her info if you like. I know several of his littermates from flyball and they are wicked fast and clock in around 40lb. I don't know if they are suitable for any protection sports, though. 

Konnie Hein's LaForge Malinois are very, very nice, stable dogs; I don't know how many of them are doing agility but Konnie would definitely be a person to talk to. 

Best of luck!


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