# characteristics of a protection dog ?



## Mo Earle

Just wanting everyone's different opinions- what characteristics are you looking to see in a great working/protection dog?


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## Howard Gaines III

Mo, I like 4 legs and a short tail then it's a Bouvier! LOL


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Confidence, instinct, judgement and heart [drive/desire to see the job through no matter how hard the conditions].


Terrasita


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## Selena van Leeuwen

confidence, stability, calmness.


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## Dave Colborn

Along with what Selena said, I like a good visual deterrent. A good barker. A dog that can be around people.

Knock on wood, I haven't been broken into, here. I have dogs here, and for a couple years had police K9 handlers stay with me month to month while in school. Lots of marked cars. A deterrent.

When the deterrent's fail, I hope to have the first comer face down on my grass bleeding out, lots of crime scene tape, so that story will then become my deterrent.


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## Matthew Stansbury

I want extreme drive and solid nerves. To me, that's the foundation. 


Mo Earle said:


> Just wanting everyone's different opinions- what characteristics are you looking to see in a great working/protection dog?


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## rick smith

imo, most of the characteristics mentioned would apply to any "good" dog, working or not

The OP didn't mention a specific type of working/protection dog, but if it's protection of a flock, space or family, as in guardian, i would think the dog should be an independent thinker who can solve problems on its own....that genetic trait has been bred out of most domestic dogs, and has been repeatedly verified in behavior studies of domestic dogs vs wild dogs and wolves. domestic dogs have become too reliant on human assistance and fail to solve even the most simple of problem solving tasks that are a piece of cake for wolves

i would think a good breeder could set up this type of situation to see which ones were the better problem solvers. but any good protection dog must be able to recognize and distinguish whether a threat exists or not

for other types of protection dogs, especially in urban environments, different characteristics might be more desirable, where control becomes much more important.....an "independent thinker" might become a liability in street situations. haven't been there and don't know, but is probably not relevant since PSD training pretty much rules out any opportunity for "independent thinking" 
...maybe more desirable to have a high "bounce back" characteristic, as well as being extremely non-reactive to environmental stressors


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## Brian Anderson

Matthew Stansbury said:


> I want extreme drive and solid nerves. To me, that's the foundation.


The foundation to me is stability & balance coupled with good nerve. The "extreme" thing when mentioned usually gets a lift of the eyebrow from me. But everyone has their own preference. Most people can't handle a dog with real "extreme" drive. They want one right up until they have it on the end of the leash LOL. I'm not cutting at you I am just mentioning it for those who are new to these kinds of dogs.


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## Jerry Lyda

Rick, that sounds just like a GSD and I agree with you. They think


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## Howard Gaines III

Jerry with the GSD card................okay!


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Jerry Lyda said:


> Rick, that sounds just like a GSD and I agree with you. They think


Yep, but with the focus on extreme and prey drive, that part is being bred out too. I always look at in terms of analysis vs. trigger reactivity. Interestingly enough, my bouv has both. 

Terrasita


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## Brian Anderson

Terrisita your quote: I always look at in terms of analysis vs. trigger reactivity

That is also a big deal to me. It seems it gets looked over or ignored by a lot of folks.


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## Joby Becker

It really depends on the situation..

is the dog for taking to training a lot, does it have to impress people with its calm full mouth bite? is it to be used for guarding, or actual protection, or a dog to do training with...are there kids and family in the picture, high crime urban areas, larger urban areas. It depends on what you want and what you think you need, your handling experiences, if you are responsible, what type of containment etc etc....

you looking for a dog that you expect to be able to be petted and interact with people alot...etc..

one persons protection dog, can be much different than someone elses.


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## Jim Nash

In the Canis lupus familiaris I look for situational and qualitative intuitivity , threshold sustainability and inordinate prey moduality that I can tier into the Protection Protocol .


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## Connie Sutherland

Jim Nash said:


> In the Canis lupus familiaris I look for situational and qualitative intuitivity , threshold sustainability and inordinate prey moduality that I can tier into the Protection Protocol .


Shouldn't you have at least one "paradigm" in there?


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## Jim Nash

Connie Sutherland said:


> Shouldn't you have at least one "paradigm" in there?


I was trying to stay on topic but certainly the Defence 
/Fight/Prey Paradigm comes into play later after I have choosen the appropriate Protection Canid to undergo my Protection Protocol .


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## Joby Becker

Jim Nash said:


> I was trying to stay on topic but certainly the Defence
> /Fight/Prey Paradigm comes into play later after I have choosen the appropriate Protection Canid to undergo my Protection Protocol .


I think this needs to be analyzed through both quantitative and qualitative parameters and plotted out statistically in a scientific manner, to avoid any discrepancies within the data sets produced.


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## Jim Nash

Joby Becker said:


> I think this needs to be analyzed through both quantitative and qualitative parameters and plotted out statistically in a scientific manner, to avoid any discrepancies within the data sets produced.


I can assure you Joby that I ran all emperical data through a rather in depth Varification Matrix before,I inserted my theories into training and the results were as I has anticipated . I'm a bit miffed by you assumption I would do such a thing without utilizing the proper scientific procedures . Of course there were some anamolies but that is to be expected .


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## Don Turnipseed

I like a dog that can relax when not working but totally switches gears when it is time to go to work. The dog has to enjoy the work.


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## Jim Nash

Brian Anderson said:


> Terrisita your quote: I always look at in terms of analysis vs. trigger reactivity
> 
> That is also a big deal to me. It seems it gets looked over or ignored by a lot of folks.


Brain could you define analysis vs. Trigger reactivity for me ?


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Here we go. . .


T


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## Randy Allen

LOL.
Jim I gotta admit, you do know how to get to the brunt of the question.

So if one were looking for a ppd which would you say are more important between the quantitative values of prey/fight/territorial/intuitive/threashold instincts ?


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## Mo Earle

_Randy said..."
So if one were looking for a ppd which would you say are more important between the quantitative values of prey/fight/territorial/intuitive/threashold instincts ?

_would one be more important or better than the other??? - I would think a great dog would have a balance and possess all of those qualities and instincts- ?


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## Faisal Khan

Speed, courage and aggression with a hint of nerve.


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## Randy Allen

Sorry Mo,
I don't have the silver tongue that Jim has. 
All the paradiams get me confused and I need clarification.


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## Jim Nash

Randy , I would give the instincts you mention a quantitative value of 1 X 3.12 squared(sorry crappy laptop) in the mathematical evaluation of such properties in a scientific model .

Mo, in the context of the paradigm model I proposed earlier there is no possibility of "balance" , as such , between the above mentioned instincts because it's a free flowing cognatative process where the canid comes in and out of said insticts at any given time based on whatever environmental stimuli it may encounter at any given moment .


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## David Frost

Jim Nash said:


> In the Canis lupus familiaris I look for situational and qualitative intuitivity , threshold sustainability and inordinate prey moduality that I can tier into the Protection Protocol .


And I thought it wasn't rocket science. ha ha

DFrost


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga

I think there is a lot of talk about drives. I think as long as the dog will bite in the right situation and does not let go until its told to, all is well. A strong bond with the handler also.


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## Jim Nash

David Frost said:


> And I thought it wasn't rocket science. ha ha
> 
> DFrost


This is some deep sh** and we've only scratched the surface .


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## Gerry Grimwood

Jim Nash said:


> In the Canis lupus familiaris I look for situational and qualitative intuitivity , threshold sustainability and inordinate prey moduality that I can tier into the Protection Protocol .


They need your input in the SAR Bloodline thread, the terminology there is lacking somewhat.


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## Jim Nash

Gerry Grimwood said:


> They need your input in the SAR Bloodline thread, the terminology there is lacking somewhat.


Yes , I have been examining that discussion with great interest in hopes I could assist them with my superior intellect but upon reading it over multiple times the only thing that comes to mind is an image of a dog chasing it's tail .


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## Mo Earle

Randy and Jim....good points, but I think you are being revolutionary and thinking outside the box....
I have to stick with plain ol' english...and I like a lot of the responses ...even those of the rocket science level


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## Randy Allen

So I think we can agree that it can all be condensed down to something that resembles;
A quadratic equation with real or complex coefficients has two solutions, called _roots_. These two solutions may or may not be distinct, and they may or may not be _real_.
The roots are given by the quadratic formula







where the symbol "±" indicates that both







are solutions of the quadratic equation.

Or graphing the variables it looks like this;



Graph of two evaluations of the smallest root of a quadratic: direct evaluation using the quadratic formula (accurate at smaller _b_) and an approximation for widely spaced roots (accurate for larger _b_). The difference reaches a minimum at the large dots, and rounding causes squiggles in the curves beyond this minimum.

I got that right so far?


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## Anna Kasho

Sorry, not a math genius...


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## Randy Allen

LMAO!
Dogs aren't that complicated.

Ana, I hope you got 80% credit for that solution and 100% for the final answer.LOL


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## Jim Nash

Randy , couldn't have done better myself not only was your formulation spot on but the presentaion was perfect .

Anna , we need to talk .


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## Bob Scott

:-k:-k....Randy, I think you got your root in the wrong place. :wink:


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Randy Allen said:


> So I think we can agree that it can all be condensed down to something that resembles;
> A quadratic equation with real or complex coefficients has two solutions, called _roots_. These two solutions may or may not be distinct, and they may or may not be _real_.
> The roots are given by the quadratic formula
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> where the symbol "±" indicates that both
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> are solutions of the quadratic equation.
> 
> Or graphing the variables it looks like this;
> 
> 
> 
> Graph of two evaluations of the smallest root of a quadratic: direct evaluation using the quadratic formula (accurate at smaller _b_) and an approximation for widely spaced roots (accurate for larger _b_). The difference reaches a minimum at the large dots, and rounding causes squiggles in the curves beyond this minimum.
> 
> I got that right so far?


So I know who to PM when my kid needs a math tutor or did you just copy this crap from somewhere.

T


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## Randy Allen

You're right Terrasita, it is crap. WE NEED MORE than just three variables!
Head slap, and of course we're going to need a constant someplace in there as well. To, um, take care of those nagging little anomalies that always seem to keep popping up.

Oh well, back to the drawing board.
Ana mind if I barrow some of your formula? I think we really need to get some differentials into the equation.


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## Howard Gaines III

Bob Scott said:


> :-k:-k....Randy, I think you got your root in the wrong place. :wink:


I thought Gerry left...? LOL
I hate when roots go wild...


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## Randy Allen

Okay okay.
No more fun on Mo's dime.

So the question was stated as what to look for in a working/protection dog.

First off I'm confused (and it isn't just semantics), is the question about a dog that works at protection or is it about a dog that works in one venue but will (probably) offer protection if the need arises?

Though there's overlap, two very different training regimens me thinks. While there are those that are born to do it all (no matter the odds), most I believe will have to be at least coaxed along (nurtured) if they are to be taking on such a stalwart opponent as a human on their own.

So is the question about the natural or a trained (or green) dog?


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga

Randy Allen said:


> Okay okay.
> No more fun on Mo's dime.
> 
> So the question was stated as what to look for in a working/protection dog.
> 
> First off I'm confused (and it isn't just semantics), is the question about a dog that works at protection or is it about a dog that works in one venue but will (probably) offer protection if the need arises?
> 
> Though there's overlap, two very different training regimens me thinks. While there are those that are born to do it all (no matter the odds), most I believe will have to be at least coaxed along (nurtured) if they are to be taking on such a stalwart opponent as a human on their own.
> 
> So is the question about the natural or a trained (or green) dog?


I agree most dogs need good upbringing to become reliable protection dogs. Sometimes i wonder what will happen if dogs are just raised without any bite-work imprinting, just exposed to different environments and as adults we test them on a bite suit or with muzzle work.


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## Joby Becker

Oluwatobi Odunuga said:


> I agree most dogs need good upbringing to become reliable protection dogs. Sometimes i wonder what will happen if dogs are just raised without any bite-work imprinting, just exposed to different environments and as adults we test them on a bite suit or with muzzle work.


a very small percentage of dogs will do fine without any type of training or imprinting. 

Those are the "out of the box" dogs.

If I was gonna go that route I would want a dog that was itching to bite someone, which doesnt fit the normal "protection" dog description as it applies to most people.

One of the best dogs I have ever seen started training at 5 yrs old.
I tested her in a suit and on a hidden sleeve, and the dog performed like a dog that people train years to achieve. I told the guy he doesnt need bitework, he needs control work...It just really wanted to mess somebody up for real. She was a very dangerous dogs to work, because she was dirty as hell and wanted to kill somebody.

After 5-6 sessions on a suit, he entered her in a hardest hitting contest, and the dog knocked the decoy out of the barn, the dog was 55 lbs of fury, full speed, reckless, a one in a million dog. Make threat, the dog did not bark at you it screamed...like a battle scream, until it was unleashed.


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga

I agree Joby, i've had about 6 dogs and only one of them(my male GSD) can be considered a protectiondog, the others are just good 'guard dogs', because off the property they loose confidence.
I remember about 3 years ago i was holding him by the collar and my friend was agitating him, i sent him inside the house then my father came out to see who i was talking to, he took that opportunity and ran at the guy and bit him in the palm, luckily he responded when i yelled at him. Never seen that much blood. He's old now with HD but i couldn't be happier ith a dog that cost me about $100. Its been 8 years of fun. I regret some things i did with him, i'm terrible with young dogs, over-correction mostly., but we learn everyday:razz:.


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## Joby Becker

Oluwatobi Odunuga said:


> I agree Joby, i've had about 6 dogs and only one of them(my male GSD) can be considered a protectiondog, the others are just good 'guard dogs', because off the property they loose confidence.
> I remember about 3 years ago i was holding him by the collar and my friend was agitating him, i sent him inside the house then my father came out to see who i was talking to, he took that opportunity and ran at the guy and bit him in the palm, luckily he responded when i yelled at him. Never seen that much blood. He's old now with HD but i couldn't be happier ith a dog that cost me about $100. Its been 8 years of fun. I regret some things i did with him, i'm terrible with young dogs, over-correction mostly., but we learn everyday:razz:.


forget the palm lol, this dog would chew your stomach out. LOL...and was not gonna listen to anyone telling it out. that dog never did out on command.


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## Guest

Mo Earle said:


> Just wanting everyone's different opinions- what characteristics are you looking to see in a great working/protection dog?


 
A working dog in what venue or a PPD?


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## Michael Santana

A dog with the defense to pick up on suspicious behaviors, and the confidence to back it up.


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