# Debate time....



## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

I am sure some of you know this, but I got into a hmmmmm rather heated discussion about the four sides of the box.....looking for some input (or rather ammo) to fire back as this discussion is NOT over. 

Imagine a box...four sides and one each side there is 

1. Positive Reinforcement
2. Positive Punishment
3. Negative Reinforcement
4. Negative Punishment

Then we have the word Extinction. 

All of this can be found in Karen Pryors book "Don't Shoot the Dog"

If you guys would, please lets discuss this. What do you think each one means? 

Example here: 

Keeping the dog out of the kitchen, but the dog has full access to the other rooms in the house.


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

maybe this will help?


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## Chad Byerly (Jun 24, 2008)

Did you mean easy-to-understand definitions for learning theory?
The graph Kyle posted is good. And extinction happens when a behavior is no longer reinforced.

Or do you want a break-down of what is happening in a given example?
I have to admit, I don't know what your example is at the bottom of your post. If the dog is kept from the kitchen, then that's great management avoiding the need for punishing unwanted behaviors in the kitchen. I've noticed that many Behaviorists as well as trainers often mention management, but end up eager to plug treatment plans into quadrants (instead of rolling a newspaper up and smacking the owner for STILL not keeping the trash/food/etc. away from the dogs)...

Carol, I don't know of the other discussion you have going on, so please explain what you want discussed.
:-k:smile:


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Kyle Sprag said:


> maybe this will help?




Kyle - Looks great. Are things slow at work today?


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Okay, let me try to explain this....

The scenario we were discussing was this:

1. Keeping the dog out of the kitchen- making the kitchen an undesireable place by using an air-horn (why the horn I do not know, not my scenario) 

So the first one:
Blair the horn all of continuously so the dog does not even want to go into the kitchen....I think this is positive punishment (dog gets relief from the horn)

The second: 
Dog steps over the threshhold to the kitchen, horn gets blasted, dog leaves....I think this is negative reinforcement (dog crosses the line, gets the horn, leaves, horn quits...I am a bit confused on this one though to be honest)

The third: 
Ignore the behavior of going into the kitchen, reward being in the other rooms...dog stops going into the kitchen since he gets nothing fun from the kitchen. (I would think this falls into the extinction category)

While I understand the concept, the person I was talking to was mixing positive and negative, in my opinion. 

My stance was that you were EITHER increasing the wanted behavior (being in the other room(s) OR decreasing the unwanted behavior (staying out of the kitchen). 

The discussion was "which is reinforcement and which is punishment? and which area do they fall into? 

This persons opinion was that it was both, increasing and decreasing, and I was saying that it did not have to be that difficult..

After an hour and a half my solution was "well, how bout this...put up a baby gate...issue solved" LOL

(please know that I think this is crazy, but I want to know how many people think that you can use both +/- at the same time or if it is either one or the other. And, me trying to explain this whole thing (in type) might be a challenge for me.....ugh, maybe I should have just left it alone...sorry) ](*,)


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## Chad Byerly (Jun 24, 2008)

A few months ago a smarty-pants friend helped me write this for another thread. Learning Theory can be confusing, while also pretty amazing... 



Chad Byerly said:


> ...There are different types of stimuli that can be added or removed. Shock is an aversive stimulus, and is an example of stuff-dogs-dislike. Hot dogs are an appetitive stimulus, and are an example of stuff-dogs-like.
> 
> If you want a behavior to decrease, add stuff-dogs-dislike or remove stuff-dogs-like.
> 
> ...


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## Chad Byerly (Jun 24, 2008)

Carol Boche said:


> So the first one:
> Blair the horn all of continuously so the dog does not even want to go into the kitchen....I think this is positive punishment (dog gets relief from the horn)


I don't know that that is positive punishment. It could also be a setup for habituation to the sound or damage to the ear, either of which would end up with a dog who didn't care about the horn.



Carol Boche said:


> The second:
> Dog steps over the threshhold to the kitchen, horn gets blasted, dog leaves....I think this is negative reinforcement (dog crosses the line, gets the horn, leaves, horn quits...I am a bit confused on this one though to be honest)


That sounds like negative reinforcement (and positive punishment when the horn started) because the dog leaving the kitchen turns the horn off.



Carol Boche said:


> The third:
> Ignore the behavior of going into the kitchen, reward being in the other rooms...dog stops going into the kitchen since he gets nothing fun from the kitchen. (I would think this falls into the extinction category)


It's only going to be extinction if the dog doesn't find reinforcement in the kitchen...



Carol Boche said:


> My stance was that you were EITHER increasing the wanted behavior (being in the other room(s) OR decreasing the unwanted behavior (staying out of the kitchen).


Also, a good rule out there for training animals is to make sure the behavior you're looking for ISN'T "something a dead dog can do". A dead dog will 'not go in the kitchen'... So aim for things only the living dog can do, like go to place...

or



Carol Boche said:


> After an hour and a half my solution was "well, how bout this...put up a baby gate...issue solved" LOL


Good idea.


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Thank you Chad, I really appreciate you taking the time, and I think we are on the same page (or at least half of a page anyway). 

I agree with the ear damage, and I did voice my opinion on using the horn as a tool anyway, for me, it is totally unrealistic and I would never do it or recommend it. 
We were trying to discuss where it fit, and positive punishment seemed to fit for me even though I did want to use the horn anyway. I actually think I wanted to use a squirt bottle or something else, can't remember now.


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## Chad Byerly (Jun 24, 2008)

Just trying to help, but don't take me as an authority. :lol: I probably used the term "habituation" wrong.

Your welcome.:wink:


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

> Also, a good rule out there for training animals is to make sure the behavior you're looking for ISN'T "something a dead dog can do". A dead dog will 'not go in the kitchen'... So aim for things only the living dog can do, like go to place...


I like this explanation! It's really hard to convey this concept to pet dog clients, for some reason.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I like the dead dog rule! Applied Dog Behaviour and Training vol II pg 31- 33 
I don't believe you can be + and - at the same time. One will over ride the other. If the reward of going in the kitchen outweighs the reward given in the other room there is no + in the other room. 
If the reward in the other room is high enough it outweighs the - in the kitchen.

I'll throw in another one. 
When I get a new pup it spends the first 6-7 months in the kitcken. It is NEVER allowed any further. Is that a negative or is it that the dog never expieriences any type of reward or punishement + or - in any other room?


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## Chad Byerly (Jun 24, 2008)

Originally Posted by *Carol Boche*  ..._Dog steps over the threshhold to the kitchen, horn gets blasted, dog leaves....I think this is negative reinforcement (dog crosses the line, gets the horn, leaves, horn quits...I am a bit confused on this one though to be honest)_
Originally Posted by *Chad Byerly * That sounds like negative reinforcement (and positive punishment when the horn started) because the dog leaving the kitchen turns the horn off.

:arrow: Correction: 
In this example entering the kitchen is the problem behavior. You aren't looking for leaving. "Entering the kitchen" stops because of Postive Punishment.



Bob Scott said:


> ...I'll throw in another one.
> When I get a new pup it spends the first 6-7 months in the kitcken. It is NEVER allowed any further. Is that a negative or is it that the dog never expieriences any type of reward or punishement + or - in any other room?


That's management. Just like if you keep the trashcan safely locked away, nothing is being punished or reinforced in relation to that trashcan. Managing the environment means controlling what stimuli and potential behaviors are available, and only those things happening within the immediate environment are relavent to the rules of learning theory. Then you can control exposure, and set your pup up for successes. 
UNLESS you mean you keep them within the kitchen boundaries without physical barriers, in which case more information would be needed to know what was reinforcing being in the kitchen or punishing leaving.


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Chad Byerly said:


> Originally Posted by *Carol Boche*  ..._Dog steps over the threshhold to the kitchen, horn gets blasted, dog leaves....I think this is negative reinforcement (dog crosses the line, gets the horn, leaves, horn quits...I am a bit confused on this one though to be honest)_
> Originally Posted by *Chad Byerly * That sounds like negative reinforcement (and positive punishment when the horn started) because the dog leaving the kitchen turns the horn off.
> 
> :arrow: Correction:
> In this example entering the kitchen is the problem behavior. You aren't looking for leaving. "Entering the kitchen" stops because of Postive Punishment.


This is what we were discussing.....exactly....my thoughts were that I picked one...increasing or decreasing......and that it could not be both.

Could it not be either one? He was saying that it was both increasing and decreasing, and I am thinking it does not have to be that difficult, but rather depends on the way you look at it. 

Also, to those that responded...may I have your permission to cross post this thread on another working dog board? I do not want to cross post without your guys okay to do so. 

Thanks


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## Chad Byerly (Jun 24, 2008)

I personally don't care if you cross post my stuff. 

I should have written "undesired behavior" instead of "problem behavior". LOL


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

The "dead dog rule" is in writing as per mentioned!


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