# Curious about improving hips/elbows in the GSD



## Sarah ten Bensel (Mar 16, 2008)

Are there currently any lines or combinations that have been closely studied that have shown to improve the genetic contribution to hip dysplasia or for that matter elbow dyplasia in the working German Shepherd? Just wondering.


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

You'll do well refering to this list I made from SV statistics.

http://www.ehretgsd.com/HD301w.pdf

Aly vom Vordersteinwald seems to hold the undisputed record for best hip production under the SV system.

To see how the better ones are interelated, look at this table.

http://www.ehretgsd.com/BloodColor.pdf


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Daryl,

What does all those colors and numbers mean? Also, with the SV system is there any way to tell at what age the dog's were x-rayed?

Terrasita


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## Sarah ten Bensel (Mar 16, 2008)

OK, I had difficulty understanding the first pdf file in terms of the percentages and what each column means. 

How would I apply your method to this breeding - Aly kind of far back in the pedigree
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/para.utkoma?fadir=446645&modir=461457


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

These records don't indicate the producer's rating, but instead the results of how they produced.

Column criteria for the first document,

1. The producer had to have 100+ progeny. This only excluded a very few well producing sires, but they were pretty much back near the inception of the hip rating program when it began, and less of a direct influence on today's generations.

2. Over 20% of their total progeny (either x-rayed or not) were awarded a1 hips.

3. Over 33% of their progeny were x-rayed. Any less cast reasonable suspicion, so as to not reflect poorly on the producing stud by witholding negative results.

4. Over 50% of their progeny that were x-rayed were awarded a1 hips. It's surprising to me that a small portion of all producers on record could meet this requirement.

5. EBV is the "estimated breed value" that I calculated that adjusts their total performance record against the number of progeny not recorded. The more disproportionate number of progeny without submitted results the lower the final score. Where Aly vom Vordersteinwald reflects a 89.6% tested progeny with a1 hips, half of 89.6% of his untested progeny modified the total result to 73.51%. This is a fair estimate of what you could expect his actual producing value is, IMO. This was intended as a safeguard formula against witholding of results, and ended up with an extraordinary amount of showline producers falling off the list. Not surprising.


In the second document, the table is a shortlist from the first document, the colors on left representing the sireline, the colors on the right column representing the damline, the founders of each bloodline indicated to the right, outside the table.

Note, I assigned Greif two distinct lines with the green and the turquoise. I think Greif was one of those early producers that scored well with too few progeny on record. Fero didn't score so well himself, as a great number of his sons and grandsons had. Lord seemed to have done very well for himself, but not so well did his lines continue the trend.

I think you can pretty well count on most of these dogs being evaluated at one year old. Not as good as the 2 year OFA requirement for a good indication for our purposes. I doubt many eager breeders would want to face the possibility of spoiling their results by waiting much over a year.


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

Sarah ten Bensel said:


> How would I apply your method to this breeding - Aly kind of far back in the pedigree
> http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/para.utkoma?fadir=446645&modir=461457


I don't usually give advice or explain my methods, just share information so you can make the best informed decision that fits your needs.

The first link to a match involves a sire that has a few fast normals in the first three generations, so it appears you've complimented him well with a female with a more solid background (all normals), and some great hip producers behind her. Comparitavely, I'd rather see three or more fast normals in a breeding from a single parent, than two have only one from each parent. Having it on both sides is a double risk for less than best hips. It's good that he's a1 normal though, his progeny should average to be so as well, with a third (37.5%) possibly transmitting of unwanted recessives to future generations.


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## Sarah ten Bensel (Mar 16, 2008)

Thanks for clarifying your charting. Do you have similar charts assessing elbows - although there is less data I am sure.


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

Nor do I have any current data, my SchH USA membership expired around last May. Elbows too, further complicates selection. At this point, I'd just make note of who's known for transmitting bad elbows, and make sure they're at least 3 gen.s back if in your pedigree. Hard enough trying to select top hip producers, luckily the best are the ones with great working pedigrees.

I'd try to narrow your general focus in bloodlines as well, because that will make you more intimately familiar with their perks and pitfalls in the longrun.

For example, my chosen primaries are Fero of westlines, and Held Ritterberg from Czech lines. Both lines are strong for producing hips and less adverse than most lines when tight linebreeding is concerned, and each line produces some of the best working/sporting temperaments.

For alternates, I've chosen a more recent generation of producer to focus on for my next prospect; Tom vant L. in westlines (w/more Yoschy) and Cordon an Sat for Czech lines.


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## Anita Griffing (Aug 8, 2009)

Daryl Ehret said:


> You'll do well refering to this list I made from SV statistics.
> 
> http://www.ehretgsd.com/HD301w.pdf
> 
> ...


 
Daryl, thanks for the great work and taking the time to do the research! Thanks for posting it for us! 
AG


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

Basically it's just a filter of the information already collected. As long as you're comfortable with the criteria level I set, and even the "best" aren't all that great as far as risk goes. I was very pleased to see that nearly all of the better producers were from working lines, and when crossreferenced with the better performers at USA nationals, BSP, and WUSV, it makes it much easier to decide on worthy bloodlines for both health and ability.


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