# bitches with ph 1, common or not?



## Michael Murphy (Nov 27, 2010)

are knpv ph 1 bitches common in holland? 

price ?


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Michael Murphy said:


> are knpv ph 1 bitches common in holland?
> 
> price ?


Males are more commonplace than females in training. There are some good females out there but they will be hard to find. Most prefer to train males since they are easier to sell and you don't have to sit at the sideline when a female goes in heat.


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## Carmen van de Kamp (Apr 2, 2006)

Alice Bezemer said:


> Males are more commonplace than females in training. There are some good females out there but they will be hard to find. Most prefer to train males since they are easier to sell and you don't have to sit at the sideline when a female goes in heat.


Sitting at the sideline during heat???? That's really old fashioned training. We train normally with females in heat.


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## Carmen van de Kamp (Apr 2, 2006)

But most train males yes. I know I'm not a good combination with a female ;-) that's not the female her fault, but my own. For my own experience/development I want a female to title in the future ;-) 

Know in our area of a good female that has issues around her heat. She has a cycle of 4-5 months & isn't trainable (not strong enough then, the other moments she is) from the moment of around 1 month before heat until 1 months after heat. That leaves 3 months trainable and then a period of 4 months not trainable.....


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Carmen van de Kamp said:


> Sitting at the sideline during heat???? That's really old fashioned training. We train normally with females in heat.


I don't see why it would be oldfashioned at all to be honest. 

No one says you have to but if you have any kind of common sense you will sideline your female during her heat period.

It's only fair on the other members that train at your club not to **** up their training by persisting you want your female on the field when they are working with their dogs, some that might even be ready to go to trial.

Personal opinion. Taking a female in heat on the field is asking for trouble, not to mention quite selfish. If you choose to buy a female you should consider the fact that she goes into heat once to twice a year and that you should be at the sideline during that time.. After all, you are not the only person trying to achieve something with your dog, your clubmembers are trying to do so as well...why make it harder?


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## Carmen van de Kamp (Apr 2, 2006)

Alice Bezemer said:


> I don't see why it would be oldfashioned at all to be honest.
> 
> No one says you have to but if you have any kind of common sense you will sideline your female during her heat period.
> 
> ...




Why would a female in heat f*** up all the training. We don't even ask our members with females if they are in heat ;-) we just train....

Trial is often in public areas, a female in heat could have been there. 
After trial during work your dog can encounter females in heat & still needs to work....


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## Michael Murphy (Nov 27, 2010)

do most breeders though (usually most are also trainers) train their females in some way even if not to compete, especially their females that they will breed from ( cause their considering worthy) ?


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Carmen van de Kamp said:


> Why would a female in heat f*** up all the training. We don't even ask our members with females if they are in heat ;-) we just train....
> 
> Trial is often in public areas, a female in heat could have been there.
> After trial during work your dog can encounter females in heat & still needs to work....


Guess we will have to agree to disagree on this one... 

My personal feeling is that a female in heat has no place on the training or trial or competition field.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Carmen van de Kamp said:


> But most train males yes. I know I'm not a good combination with a female ;-) that's not the female her fault, but my own. For my own experience/development I want a female to title in the future ;-)
> 
> Know in our area of a good female that has issues around her heat. She has a cycle of 4-5 months & isn't trainable (not strong enough then, the other moments she is) from the moment of around 1 month before heat until 1 months after heat. That leaves 3 months trainable and then a period of 4 months not trainable.....


 
I had one like that and I eventually spayed her. The rest of the females I've been able to work and trial in season.

T


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Carmen van de Kamp said:


> Why would a female in heat f*** up all the training. We don't even ask our members with females if they are in heat ;-) we just train....
> 
> Trial is often in public areas, a female in heat could have been there.
> After trial during work your dog can encounter females in heat & still needs to work....


That's certainly the feeling in the herding world. In the trial classes, a bitch in season runs in catalog level. In the tests classes, they run at the end. 

T


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

we always keep training with female in heat, males have to learn to deal with it. keep busy with their work.
If the dogs is advanced in his training (lijnklaar) we let a female in heat search for the little articles first and the male after her.
Would be nice if you put up your male psd for a search and he sniffs around for females instead of evidence.

See training with females in heat as a big distraction training for the males. I know a lot of clubs (IPO and KNPV) don't allow it, or as last dog in training, but to me/ us it is great training.



Alice Bezemer said:


> I don't see why it would be oldfashioned at all to be honest.
> 
> No one says you have to but if you have any kind of common sense you will sideline your female during her heat period.
> 
> ...


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Michael Murphy said:


> do most breeders though (usually most are also trainers) train their females in some way even if not to compete, especially their females that they will breed from ( cause their considering worthy) ?


yes, i think so. 

Till the birth of our kids all females were trained about half way through the program. I'd trained the girls, since the birth of the kids there isnt much training time left for me, so we do test all the girls and hopefully I can start training more consequent soon (not fair to a dog to train once in awhile).

I also see trainers who keep training their female after breeding her. We don't, all sorts of stress could cause loss of the puppies and training involves stress in a certain level.
(not talking about a short ob routine with all known exercizes or a short bite on the suit/sleeve, but a full training session)


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## Carmen van de Kamp (Apr 2, 2006)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> yes, i think so.
> 
> Till the birth of our kids all females were trained about half way through the program. I'd trained the girls, since the birth of the kids there isnt much training time left for me, so we do test all the girls and hopefully I can start training more consequent soon (not fair to a dog to train once in awhile).
> 
> ...




Same here with the females. We train them until the breeding. 
We also give demonstrations with our dogs & I don't want to use my competition dog(s) for the demos as they get to much free time there;-) so we have our females ready for that.


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## Ellen Piepers (Nov 6, 2008)

Carmen van de Kamp said:


> Trial is often in public areas, a female in heat could have been there.
> After trial during work your dog can encounter females in heat & still needs to work....


Personally I wouldn't want to train my female during certain part of their heat period as I believe it wouldn't benefit me nor her, apart from the things that she already knows very well and is performing stabily in. Opinions at clubs differ, you need to see what works and what doesn't, but I agree with Selena that you could use it as a distraction training.

It goes without saying that I wouldn't start doing that with a dog just before his trial ;-)

On the other hand, if you don't expose your male dog to this kind of distraction and he turns out to be very sensitive for it, you can have bad surprises at trial.... when I was visiting the PH1 trial venue for water work, there was a guy (not related to any kind of dog training) who was walking his dogs and his female ran onto the field and peed in the middel of the are where they do the small object search. he said: oh sorry, she is in heat but she's very friendly, don't worry. Turned out he lived close by and didn't have any clue what kind of training was done there, nor that that week the trials would be held. Something I observed in the trial of that week tells me it wasn't the last time he let her pee there......... and also females can be distracted by having to search in a heat-pee-infested area....


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Carmen van de Kamp said:


> Why would a female in heat f*** up all the training. We don't even ask our members with females if they are in heat ;-) we just train....
> 
> Trial is often in public areas, a female in heat could have been there.
> After trial during work your dog can encounter females in heat & still needs to work....


He might still need to work but not every dog is as far in it's training that it will be able to ignore the female on the field. I agree that the dog should work and do as told but in the end I am not that ignorant to expect everyone to have a dog who can ignore it. My dog is used to it but hes used to having a female (Caylinn) around. Also females can and will react to the smell of a bitch in heat, its not only the males that do so.


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## Michael Murphy (Nov 27, 2010)

how much do these half trained bitches cost selena , usually ?


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## Shade Whitesel (Aug 18, 2010)

I really hate the excuse of "my dog didn't do well because of a bitch in heat" so I personally love it when bitches at my training club go into season so I can use them as distraction for my male. He will encounter it anyway, whether at the tracking field, the host hotel, or at the potty area at the field, so I train through it. 
Never really had a problem...


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## Carmen van de Kamp (Apr 2, 2006)

Shade Whitesel said:


> I really hate the excuse of "my dog didn't do well because of a bitch in heat" so I personally love it when bitches at my training club go into season so I can use them as distraction for my male. He will encounter it anyway, whether at the tracking field, the host hotel, or at the potty area at the field, so I train through it.
> Never really had a problem...




Same here. We even had people coming over for breeding to a male of a clubmember before training on the field. After that we just trained there...also with the stud & the female was in the car


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

Shade Whitesel said:


> I really hate the excuse of "my dog didn't do well because of a bitch in heat" so I personally love it when bitches at my training club go into season so I can use them as distraction for my male. He will encounter it anyway, whether at the tracking field, the host hotel, or at the potty area at the field, so I train through it.
> Never really had a problem...


 
Let me put it differently (which I assume is what Alice is trying to convey):


What if you got a 14 month old dog in for training... You had recently gotten it and were going to start training it... 

Let's say, you got to your club and the training field was full of urine of females in heat... 

Do you think that would work out?

It's all about the level of training you're in... not talking about some finished product. 


Regards


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## Carmen van de Kamp (Apr 2, 2006)

Tiago Fontes said:


> Let me put it differently (which I assume is what Alice is trying to convey):
> 
> 
> What if you got a 14 month old dog in for training... You had recently gotten it and were going to start training it...
> ...



But if you expose them to it regularly its getting "normal" ;-)


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Carmen van de Kamp said:


> Why would a female in heat f*** up all the training. We don't even ask our members with females if they are in heat ;-) we just train....
> 
> Trial is often in public areas, a female in heat could have been there.
> After trial during work your dog can encounter females in heat & still needs to work....


I agree with this. And not just because I train/trial a lot of females, I also train/trial males. But you never know when a female in heat is in the parking lots, or living in a house nearby, or has been on the trial field, etc. And I'm "just" training "sport dogs". If my dog was intended for police work I would most definitely want to proof it around females in heat. The last thing I'd want to find out is that while tracking a suspect he was actually tracking Fifi, or he is to busy sniffing and drooling to bite someone who needs to be bitten.

I train my girls all the way through their heat cycle, and have trialed more then one of them in heat. In French Ring they just trial at the end, but I am sure every male there knows there is a bitch in heat in the parking lot. At training I just tell people my girl is in heat, so the people who want to get on the field before she comes out can, and the people who don't care or specifically want to work their dog around it can come out on the field after I have brought her out. 

Or you could run into a situation like this. A number of years ago I was at a Ring trial, which was actually 2 different trials, one Sat and one Sun. After the Sat trial ended, an IPO club was going to be using the field for the obedience and protection portion of their trial. We had 2 females in heat at that trial, both in standing heat. They trialed at the end of the FR trial, as stated in the rules. But that meant the last 2 dogs on the field before the IPO trial started were 2 females in standing heat. It also meant the next day at the FR trial that the girls had been all over the field the night before. 

At a herding trial last weekend there were multiple females in various stages of their heat cycles. Mine just finished her's, another was right in the middle of hers. They still trials, in catalog order, the dogs are just expected to work around it and still have the drive and focus to get their job done.

Add to that since I do train and trial both males and females, it's not uncommon for my male who I'm trialing to be living with girls in heat, or even sitting in a crate in the vehicle next to a girl in heat. When I pull him out though, I expect him to work.


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

Carmen van de Kamp said:


> But if you expose them to it regularly its getting "normal" ;-)


 
lol... Thats good advice. Not only for dogs, though! 

Now seriously, I think you got my point.


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Carmen van de Kamp said:


> But if you expose them to it regularly its getting "normal" ;-)


But the problem is, not everyone is able to expose their dog to it regularly. 

My dog is used to it because of my female and I train through it but not everyone has 2 dogs or more.

For me it is easy to say that a dog should work through it...my dog is trained through it, he doesn't give a rats ass about it one way or the other. But I do not expect other people's dogs to react the same as mine and I do not want to make life harder for them than it already might be (think green handler and green dog) Plus there are a lot of people out there who do not want to have a female in heat on their trainingfield when they are working their dog...who am I to force them into that? It might be oldfashioned but I think people should be given the choice to allow or deny a female in heat during training. 

I will even go one step further and say that I picked a female to train with so I knew she would go in heat and during that time I should probably be sidelined with her. No one asked me to take a female, it was my choice, why bother them with my issues when she goes into heat? 

Plus...who wants to really train with a female in heat? My god, the whiny clingy ass things just get on my nerve even more during that time LOL...I am glad to be able to leave her in the car during these times.


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## Jill Lyden (May 25, 2011)

As an owner of a male I'd actually ask you to bring your in heat bitch to the field for training day - regardless of the level of our training. Sure, I'd have a crappy day at training but I'd rather have that than a crappy day at trial because I didn't ever allow myself and my dog the opportunity to train through that inevitable distraction.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Alice Bezemer said:


> I will even go one step further and say that I picked a female to train with so I knew she would go in heat and during that time I should probably be sidelined with her. No one asked me to take a female, it was my choice, why bother them with my issues when she goes into heat?


Just for arguments sake I would turn that around and say nobody asked them to pick a male or keep him intact, if they didn't want to deal with bitch in heat issues, on the trial field but also out in the real world as a PD, they should have gotten a bitch or neutered their dog young  Why should I be bothered by their inability to work their dog around distractions? :twisted: (seriously though like I stated previously we are polite about it in our club, and give people the option, do you want to work your male before or after the female in heat goes on the field)



Alice Bezemer said:


> Plus...who wants to really train with a female in heat? My god, the whiny clingy ass things just get on my nerve even more during that time LOL...I am glad to be able to leave her in the car during these times.


Maybe this is the real issue? I find that my girls get stronger/tougher when they are in heat. Maybe not as clean in their control work, but I don't think they get clingy or whiny at all. They become BITCHES


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## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

In KNPV trials do people with bitches in heat get to go last?


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Faisal Khan said:


> In KNPV trials do people with bitches in heat get to go last?


They are not allowed to trial when in heat.


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Michael Murphy said:


> how much do these half trained bitches cost selena , usually ?


I sold a proven and half trained breeding female (5yo) for €2000 and green (some started training) males and females between €1000/1500,but am a terrible businessperson ;-) i just want the dogs a good home,rather than the highest price.

I have bought a ph1 female for the purchase price pd's would pay for a new psd addition: €4750. 

Just expect a price somewhere in between those numbers, if you deal directly. Add ( at least) another €500-1000 if you get the dog through a broker.


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> Maybe this is the real issue? I find that my girls get stronger/tougher when they are in heat. Maybe not as clean in their control work, but I don't think they get clingy or whiny at all. They become BITCHES


Had both...some are real bitches, and any corrections is good for (trying) to bite, and the whiney , sticky ones (you do love me, huh? Just love me, pleeaaasssse).
All got worked.

Dick started training Nika again for her Ph2 selection about 7 wks after the litter was born Spike was in. They won the selection and when the litter was about 4.5 mo they went to the championships.


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## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

Alice Bezemer said:


> They are not allowed to trial when in heat.


I love KNPV already


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> Had both...some are real bitches, and any corrections is good for (trying) to bite, and the whiney , sticky ones (you do love me, huh? Just love me, pleeaaasssse).
> All got worked.
> 
> Dick started training Nika again for her Ph2 selection about 7 wks after the litter was born Spike was in. They won the selection and when the litter was about 4.5 mo they went to the championships.


Hey...why do you still get to edit your posts hours later ????? =;


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> Just for arguments sake I would turn that around and say nobody asked them to pick a male or keep him intact, if they didn't want to deal with bitch in heat issues, on the trial field but also out in the real world as a PD, they should have gotten a bitch or neutered their dog young  Why should I be bothered by their inability to work their dog around distractions? :twisted: (seriously though like I stated previously we are polite about it in our club, and give people the option, do you want to work your male before or after the female in heat goes on the field)
> 
> *In KNPV you do not see all that many females being trained to start with. Its mostly males with a random female thrown in there. Not many people like training with females, myself included. I think that is the main problem here. KNPV has always been predominantly male, both in training and in dogs. There has been a shift in the last 25 years or so, more females and female trainers on the field but its still a male orientated world for lack of better words. I get where you're coming from with the devil's advocate thought but simple fact would be that it doesn't work in KNPV to start with. A female in heat is not allowed to compete or trial to begin with. *
> 
> ...


I think my largest issue with bringing a female in heat to the field is due to things I witnessed on clubs. I've seen it happen that people came to train at clubs they were not a member of and have them throw a hissyfit at being asked to go last. I've seen them demanding to be let out first on field. Non members, making demands, with a female in heat, just because they felt they could.... Nothing riles me up more then selfish people. I've seen them **** up training for a few green members because they simply didn't wait but took the lead in many excercises. Its hard for a green member to get into the program to begin with, no need to make it harder for them at that point! I've seen them work their dogs and then say "Oh, didn't I mention it? She's in heat" Well **** me sideways! Thanks for mentioning that in advance! For young dogs and green trainers this can make life extra hard, a mention in advance would have been nice so that the handler atleast can keep an eye out for strange behaviour in their males and deal with accordingly....

My view of not letting a female in heat on the field is mostly based on these things. I have never minded it myself but I can only speak for myself and not for members at my club or at other clubs.

I think that someone who owns a female in heat shouldn't simply assume that they are welcome to train at any club but I keep seeing more and more owners do so. Respect the club you train at or visit and follow their rules, do not force your own views about a female in heat on them and have the respect to let the club know in advance that you are working a female in heat. These are simple things to do.... 

Just my opinion :mrgreen:


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Joby Becker said:


> Hey...why do you still get to edit your posts hours later ????? =;


Cause i'm special :mrgreen: :-\":-\":-\


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