# The Evolution of Schutzhund and/or Protection Sport Training



## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

In thinking of the threat recognition thread, one of the things that comes to mind is how bite work training and testing may have changed. I'd love to hear other's perspective on this. When I got involved in Sch in the 80s and even in the 90s if you wanted to train your dog in bitework, the dog was first evaluated in terms of how he responded to a threatening decoy. With Ingrid, the guy had a whip and a sleeve. Scroll forward to 2007, the test was for prey and flirt pole work. If you could demonstrate sustained prey/object drive then the dog was trainable. How has this changed trait selection and breeding? I'm just wondering from others who have been around, if this is something they have observed and has it affected the type of dog that is out there on the field today?

T


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## Mike Di Rago (Jan 9, 2009)

I would think that Schutzhund and French Ring were at the beginnings tools used as selection for breeding stock first and then as a sport. Now I think that more people are involved in both and enjoy the sport aspect.Being sports, points are involved to determine winners.Of the people that participate in sports,the points matter more than what the dogs really represent.Even though many good dogs participate in the sports,and you can tell the difference on the fields,many not so good can give a good show since they are just repeating a rehearsed pattern. So to get those points and keep them it is now more advantageous to have a prey drive dog than a dog that exhibits more defense drive (don't like those terms but for discussion sake!). 
But I think there are still breeders that produce strong dogs that do the sports,but because of the rules and scoring,weaker dogs will still score on paper. It is probably not all one or the other but since more people participate in the sports(and breed their dogs) we see many weaker dogs score in trials. 
Mike


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## David Ruby (Jul 21, 2009)

Mike Di Rago said:


> I would think that Schutzhund and French Ring were at the beginnings tools used as selection for breeding stock first and then as a sport.


Question, maybe more relevant to Schutzhund, maybe not. Was Schutzhund (or Ring) ever used as the police training, or just a breed evaluation tool? If you go specifically for points, that seems a bit regimented for street work, however SchH for instance seems like a very German standardized testing module for evaluating with little room for the subjective. I am wondering if Schutzhund or Ring, or KNPV, or whatever, are (or were ever) meant to be training for practical use, or just a way of standardizing things to objectively evaluate dogs before being bred or used in the field.

-Cheers


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

I have been involved with schH since 1981. ALWAYS the search has been for a balanced animal, in both prey and defense. That said, normally puppies and young dogs weren't then, and aren't now tested in defense, because they aren't mature enough to handle it, at least with all the people I have trained with. You usually start with prey moves and prey work, defense is something you build towards.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

susan tuck said:


> I have been involved with schH since 1981. ALWAYS the search has been for a balanced animal, in both prey and defense. That said, normally puppies and young dogs weren't then, and aren't now tested in defense, because they aren't mature enough to handle it, at least with all the people I have trained with. You usually start with prey moves and prey work, defense is something you build towards.


By the way, Helmut Raiser says the same thing regarding starting dogs in prey and saving defense work for mature dogs, in his book "Der Schutzhund" which was originally published in 1979.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

susan tuck said:


> I have been involved with schH since 1981. ALWAYS the search has been for a balanced animal, in both prey and defense. That said, normally puppies and young dogs weren't then, and aren't now tested in defense, because they aren't mature enough to handle it, at least with all the people I have trained with. You usually start with prey moves and prey work, defense is something you build towards.


So in your eyes, it's about the same? That is a great perspective. I don't mean there's no change, just that the basics are the same. I always hear a lot of what I think is revisionist history with dogs and everything over 20 years old...


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## Daniel Lybbert (Nov 23, 2010)

As far as me and ring goes. I started ring with a shit dobe. then went to a soft mal. I have been through a few and the dogs progressively get harder stronger and faster. So I dont believe everyone is looking to get a soft dog that is easily trainable. The ob might be perfect but what about the rest of the ring 3 protection. I would think a good strong vigilant dog would be the better choice when getting a dog.
That being said. If John Doe showed up at a local club and asked if his dog could do the sport and I hauld off and whipped him. He ran for the car. I probably just cost myself a club member and the sport a participant. Maybe with a bit of work he could have got a ring 1. Get John addicted then get him a good new dog.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Dave Colborn said:


> So in your eyes, it's about the same? That is a great perspective. I don't mean there's no change, just that the basics are the same. I always hear a lot of what I think is revisionist history with dogs and everything over 20 years old...


At least in my experience, I have found this to be true. The old timers I train with train this way, the new people who learn at their knee train this way, and everyone is still looking for that perfect balanced dog. It has always been this way in my experience, the basics are the same.

Daniel I don't know anyone in schH who wants or looks for a soft dog. A hard dog is a resilient dog and is a better dog and much easier to train, in my experience.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

susan tuck said:


> At least in my experience, I have found this to be true. The old timers I train with train this way, the new people who learn at their knee train this way, and everyone is still looking for that perfect balanced dog. It has always been this way in my experience, the basics are the same.
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> ...


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## David Ruby (Jul 21, 2009)

Dave Colborn said:


> I always hear a lot of what I think is revisionist history with dogs and everything over 20 years old...


I think it is easy to wax nostalgic about how everything was better in the good old days. There is probably some truth to that in most things, however progress is good too.

-Cheers


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> In thinking of the threat recognition thread, one of the things that comes to mind is how bite work training and testing may have changed. I'd love to hear other's perspective on this. When I got involved in Sch in the 80s and even in the 90s if you wanted to train your dog in bitework, the dog was first evaluated in terms of how he responded to a threatening decoy. With Ingrid, the guy had a whip and a sleeve. Scroll forward to 2007, the test was for prey and flirt pole work. If you could demonstrate sustained prey/object drive then the dog was trainable. How has this changed trait selection and breeding? I'm just wondering from others who have been around, if this is something they have observed and has it affected the type of dog that is out there on the field today?
> 
> T


What makes you think the dogs were being tested in a threatening manner and not being tested in prey?


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## Mike Di Rago (Jan 9, 2009)

David Ruby said:


> Question, maybe more relevant to Schutzhund, maybe not. Was Schutzhund (or Ring) ever used as the police training, or just a breed evaluation tool? If you go specifically for points, that seems a bit regimented for street work, however SchH for instance seems like a very German standardized testing module for evaluating with little room for the subjective. I am wondering if Schutzhund or Ring, or KNPV, or whatever, are (or were ever) meant to be training for practical use, or just a way of standardizing things to objectively evaluate dogs before being bred or used in the field.
> 
> -Cheers


I don't think Sch,Ring or KNPV were meant to be used as training for practical use but were ''standardized' methods for evaluating potential breeding candidates. I don't think any police force would put a dog on the street with only schutzhund or KNPV training.
On another note, saying that hard dogs are what we look for is great,but the truth is that some weak dogs do end up getting a Sch 3 or a Ring 3 even with weak nerves,because the training has worked around those flaws. 
Mike


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Mike Di Rago said:


> On another note, saying that hard dogs are what we look for is great,but the truth is that some weak dogs do end up getting a Sch 3 or a Ring 3 even with weak nerves,because the training has worked around those flaws.
> Mike


Oh I agree, but this has always been the case, at least since I have been around, I can point to dogs in the early 80s who were soft, and dogs who had nerve issues, and still did quite well. This is not a recent advent.

The ideal dog remains unchanged, a hard dog with tons of prey and defense that is easily tapped into, and when tapped into the dog has solid nerves, doesn't get chewy and growly (or worse). A dog a helper can easily move from prey to defense and back again.


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## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

So I'm new to the whole protection training world. Which is to say, I'm on my first two dogs right now. What has happened to SchH is what happens to everything competitive... once the rules are set in place, the competitors progressively find ways to maximize their performance. If the rules favor something, the world will do its best to exploit that. In schutzhund I've observed or come to understand this
Originally there was a focus on perfect OB, strong defensive dogs. Prior to such a positive training world, this led to heavy compulsion to get the most points. Then the rules changed to say the dog must be happy and enthusiastic for the work to address that. Well, higher prey drive coupled with positive training certainly makes training easier and dogs are happier. The combo has now led to dogs being "chipper" across the board. Including protection. Parts of the protection routine are, by design, supposed to show the dog transition back and forth from aggression and prey. The dogs are so positive-only trained and high prey drive that they no longer show actual aggression and presently this can put more points on the board. I have two dogs I'm training:
Katya: stupid high level/low threshold prey, pretty high level/medium threshold aggression
Jäger: high level/medium threshold prey, stupid high aggression/mid to low threshold aggression
I've been told time and time again, and know it to be true, that Katya will always score higher in IPO than Jäger. She has that pop & flash of a mal in OB. Still, I don't let her work primarily in prey but work her in aggression in protection because I think that is more correct. It costs us points. Simply because in protection we walk the ragged edge of under control. I'm ok with that... however it will always provide ample opportunity to lose points.

My male I'll be content to just title to IPO3 and not compete. He is a typical DDR/Slovak dog. Very serious, will work in aggression primarily given the chance... and I'm fine with that. However, it gives everyone on the SchH field the impression that he will bite the helper for real or is unpredictable... yet he never has or even attempted. He is the type of dog I think *should* put great scores up.

The problem is the judging and rules are a pendulum. When an issue is identified, the rules are changed to correct it and almost always overcorrect... eventually it will swing back in the other direction. Gov'ts, religions, etc, all do the same thing.

Right now, I see dogs get "pronounced" ratings that I think is wholly undeserved. Its like almost all the dogs get pronounced ratings... we are approaching "everyone gets a trophy, there are no losers" territory... but thats a cultural problem as much as it is a SchH one.


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

The IPO trainers I have dealt with all work their dogs in aggression...They want the picture on the field to be complete...I am sure that any of those dogs could make the transition to the street without a problem..


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## Steve Burger (Jan 2, 2009)

From what I hear, listening to people in the know, who have been around a long time is the whole culture has changed toward the status quo where softer, weaker nerved dogs have a chance to succeed.

1. The training regime has improved dramatically, at least in places. With positive training environments all dogs look better. The super hard dogs can be managed easier, and softer dogs can be made to look better. In the old days the dogs would have washed out sooner with the high level of pressure of training with compulsion being the primary teaching method.

2. Too many people choose who they are going to breed to based on the owner, and the reputation of the owner and not the dog. Too many people breed to the dogs that just placed the highest at a major competition. Often these dogs are far from the best. 

3. The dog culture in Europe, especially Germany has changed. With the advent of the green party, over- legislation, and less need for serious dogs in public service (border guard, police, etc.) there are less of these dogs being bred. 

4. Too many clubs choose soft, easy judges for trials. Crappy judges, and there are far too many of them out there, have a lack of ability to read dogs and reward according to their ability. 

5. The culture of trial helpers, has given way to an over-utilization of prey movement, even when it comes to trials. It is astonishing how many trial helpers don't seem to know for example that the cue for the dog to bite is the threatening gesture with the stick and not popping the sleeve. I have a friend who was doing helper work at a National level event. An official came and instructed him to pop the sleeve, ease up on the pressure, etc. This kind of shit makes crap dogs look good and good dogs look mediocre. Garbage!

6. Over-utilization of prey work in training dogs. Putting dogs on the sleeve as puppies, makes it all about the arm and not the man. People get what they train for.


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## Steve Burger (Jan 2, 2009)

Hunter Allred said:


> Originally there was a focus on perfect OB, strong defensive dogs. Prior to such a positive training world, this led to heavy compulsion to get the most points. Then the rules changed to say the dog must be happy and enthusiastic for the work to address that. Well, higher prey drive coupled with positive training certainly makes training easier and dogs are happier. The combo has now led to dogs being "chipper" across the board. Including protection. Parts of the protection routine are, by design, supposed to show the dog transition back and forth from aggression and prey. The dogs are so positive-only trained and high prey drive that they no longer show actual aggression and presently this can put more points on the board..


 Yes, under crap judges, but get in a major championship under a Jurgen Ritzi or Gunther Diegel and these points are going to be dropped out of the V range



Hunter Allred said:


> Still, I don't let her work primarily in prey but work her in aggression in protection because I think that is more correct. It costs us points. Simply because in protection we walk the ragged edge of under control. I'm ok with that... however it will always provide ample opportunity to lose points.
> 
> My male I'll be content to just title to IPO3 and not compete. He is a typical DDR/Slovak dog. Very serious, will work in aggression primarily given the chance... and I'm fine with that. However, it gives everyone on the SchH field the impression that he will bite the helper for real or is unpredictable... yet he never has or even attempted. He is the type of dog I think *should* put great scores up.
> 
> ...


 Not that many training helpers are really skilled enough to work a dog in fight drive, successfully. The problem is not necessarily that the rules are written wrong, the problem is too many people, including many judges, either don't know the rules to begin with or ignore them. Probably too many judges, ignore the rules AND can't read dogs. In terms of ability to read dogs, well they can't change that other than toughen up the process to allow them to even become a judge. As far as ignoring the rules, well if clubs stop inviting these judges then the culture changes. Also to allow these kinds of judges to judge major events is a tragedy.


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## Steve Burger (Jan 2, 2009)

A lot of these concerns was covered in an interview with my training director prior to him judging the 2009 WUSV in Krefeld. 

http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBul...nce-collins-2009-wusv-protection-judge-12641/


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## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

Steve Burger said:


> Yes, under crap judges, but get in a major championship under a Jurgen Ritzi or Gunther Diegel and these points are going to be dropped out of the V range
> 
> Not that many training helpers are really skilled enough to work a dog in fight drive, successfully. The problem is not necessarily that the rules are written wrong, the problem is too many people, including many judges, either don't know the rules to begin with or ignore them. Probably too many judges, ignore the rules AND can't read dogs. In terms of ability to read dogs, well they can't change that other than toughen up the process to allow them to even become a judge. As far as ignoring the rules, well if clubs stop inviting these judges then the culture changes. Also to allow these kinds of judges to judge major events is a tragedy.


I did my first breed survey a few months ago. They said "come out of the blind and attack the dog". So I did. I got told to lighten up a bit and run at a ~45 degree angle at the dog lol.

The courage tests were all blah except for one dog, that took me to the ground... but I knew this dog was going to do this anyway lol. One dog went at the quietly writing judge despite me running directly at him screaming and beating the stick on my thigh lol. 

Oh well. They were all "pronounced" I believe.


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## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

will fernandez said:


> The IPO trainers I have dealt with all work their dogs in aggression...They want the picture on the field to be complete...I am sure that any of those dogs could make the transition to the street without a problem..


Hey, you're in Savannah GA?


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## Steve Burger (Jan 2, 2009)

Hunter Allred said:


> I did my first breed survey a few months ago. They said "come out of the blind and attack the dog". So I did. I got told to lighten up a bit and run at a ~45 degree angle at the dog lol.
> 
> The courage tests were all blah except for one dog, that took me to the ground... but I knew this dog was going to do this anyway lol. One dog went at the quietly writing judge despite me running directly at him screaming and beating the stick on my thigh lol.
> 
> Oh well. They were all "pronounced" I believe.


 Exactly! It's bad enough in the working world, this type of crap is par for the course in the Show world.


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## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

Steve Burger said:


> Exactly! It's bad enough in the working world, this type of crap is par for the course in the Show world.


At a pre-trial practice a handler told me that on the courage test, make sure I raised the sleeve, then the stick.

I *sorta* wanted to throw the sleeve down and run with just the stick lol... sorta.


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## Steve Burger (Jan 2, 2009)

Hunter Allred said:


> At a pre-trial practice a handler told me that on the courage test, make sure I raised the sleeve, then the stick.
> 
> I *sorta* wanted to throw the sleeve down and run with just the stick lol... sorta.


The handler is not the one to instruct the helper. Now some pre-trial advice such as she tends to go sleeve side as opposed to stick side might help to keep both safe in the case of a fast dog, but otherwise, it is up to the judge to give the instructions.


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## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

Steve Burger said:


> The handler is not the one to instruct the helper. Now some pre-trial advice such as she tends to go sleeve side as opposed to stick side might help to keep both safe in the case of a fast dog, but otherwise, it is up to the judge to give the instructions.


Yeah this was practice before the trial, and I wasn't doing the IPO1's anyway, so I just did as I was asked...


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## Steve Burger (Jan 2, 2009)

Hunter Allred said:


> Yeah this was practice before the trial, and I wasn't doing the IPO1's anyway, so I just did as I was asked...


 f$%K em, put on the pressure! Oh, you want to be asked back???


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Steve Burger said:


> The handler is not the one to instruct the helper. Now some pre-trial advice such as she tends to go sleeve side as opposed to stick side might help to keep both safe in the case of a fast dog, but otherwise, it is up to the judge to give the instructions.


If I feel the need to tell the helper ANYTHING, I will pull my dog because the helper is obviously unqualified.

You best bet is to leave the helper alone.


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## Steve Burger (Jan 2, 2009)

Christopher Smith said:


> If I feel the need to tell the helper ANYTHING, I will pull my dog because the helper is obviously unqualified.
> 
> You best bet is to leave the helper alone.


 Yeah, I did that recently.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

susan tuck said:


> At least in my experience, I have found this to be true. The old timers I train with train this way, the new people who learn at their knee train this way, and everyone is still looking for that perfect balanced dog. It has always been this way in my experience, the basics are the same.
> 
> Daniel I don't know anyone in schH who wants or looks for a soft dog. A hard dog is a resilient dog and is a better dog and much easier to train, in my experience.


Although, they tested for defense and threat recognition/response, once they decided your dog had it, they went to the Raiser type prey drive development and balanced drives type training. 

T


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

susan tuck said:


> What makes you think the dogs were being tested in a threatening manner and not being tested in prey?


 
Because I know the difference for one. I don't consider either one right or wrong, just an observation and wondering what others thought or have observed since. The other piece of it is that I find it hard to believe that people question a dog's ability to have threat recognition/discrimination, thinking in terms of Rick's proposed test. All of this brought to mind how dogs were tested in the Sch clubs I belonged to in the 80s and 90s vs. how things are done today. But that said, not all clubs/TDs are looking for the same thing--maybe. Like I said, this used to be a given or expected of certain breeds. Now people talk about "serious" or "civil" as if it were some exceptional quality. Gonna go check out Steve's article.

T


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Daniel Lybbert said:


> As far as me and ring goes. I started ring with a shit dobe. then went to a soft mal. I have been through a few and the dogs progressively get harder stronger and faster. So I dont believe everyone is looking to get a soft dog that is easily trainable. The ob might be perfect but what about the rest of the ring 3 protection. I would think a good strong vigilant dog would be the better choice when getting a dog.
> That being said. If John Doe showed up at a local club and asked if his dog could do the sport and I hauld off and whipped him. He ran for the car. I probably just cost myself a club member and the sport a participant. Maybe with a bit of work he could have got a ring 1. Get John addicted then get him a good new dog.


 
See before, if the dog didn't have it, they wouldn't train it--at least around here. Several years ago when I was looking for a dog and would ask breeders about the prospective puppy, some responses were "it could be a club dog." I had to go back to the club TD and ask him what were they talking about. He began with, "you don't want it. . ." If a stable dog with instinctive threat recognition is perceived as a liability, how dangerous is it to train unstable dogs in bite sports? Back in the day, they just told you to hang out and learn and train when you have an adequate dog. I'm sure everyone has their minimal traits that the dog needs to have.

T


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> See before, if the dog didn't have it, they wouldn't train it--at least around here. Several years ago when I was looking for a dog and would ask breeders about the prospective puppy, some responses were "it could be a club dog." I had to go back to the club TD and ask him what were they talking about. He began with, "you don't want it. . ." If a stable dog with instinctive threat recognition is perceived as a liability, how dangerous is it to train unstable dogs in bite sports? Back in the day, they just told you to hang out and learn and train when you have an adequate dog. I'm sure everyone has their minimal traits that the dog needs to have.
> 
> T


What did everyone do with all of the puppies that didn't turn out?


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> See before, if the dog didn't have it, they wouldn't train it--at least around here. Several years ago when I was looking for a dog and would ask breeders about the prospective puppy, some responses were "it could be a club dog." I had to go back to the club TD and ask him what were they talking about. He began with, "you don't want it. . ." If a stable dog with instinctive threat recognition is perceived as a liability, how dangerous is it to train unstable dogs in bite sports? Back in the day, they just told you to hang out and learn and train when you have an adequate dog. I'm sure everyone has their minimal traits that the dog needs to have.
> 
> T


Huh????? Maybe this is just another example of different people's definitions being different, but a dog being a club dog doesn't mean it's unstable, nor does it mean it's "inadequate", it just means it's doesn't have what it takes to compete on the National or International stage. Not every dog is going to be of high enough caliber to compete at the upper echelons of sport. There have ALWAYS been dogs that are just club dogs, which is normal because most handlers are only competing on the local level, whether because they don't have the talent or skills, or they lack the financial wherewithal or simply because that's all they want to do.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

susan tuck said:


> Huh????? A dog being a club dog doesn't mean it's unstable, nor does it mean it's "inadequate", it just means it's doesn't have what it takes to compete on the National or International arena. There have ALWAYS been dogs that are just club dogs, which is normal because most handlers are only competing on the local level, whether because they don't have the talent or skills, or they lack the financial wherewithal or simply because that's all they want to do.


Susan. I think you are barking up the wrong tree. The stance will just change to apply to what she means to say, until you get tired of listening her apply what she means to say, to nothing that was said, should have been said, or will be said. You'd be better off discussing dentistry with a wild animal. A yak, if I had my choice. I like the way they look.

Susan. This is a public service announcement from someone who has just gone through the same shenanigans. Step away from the shenanigans. I wish someone had had an intervention for me.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Dave Colborn said:


> A yak, if I had my choice. I like the way they look.
> 
> Susan. This is a public service announcement from someone who has just gone through the same shenanigans. Step away from the shenanigans. I wish someone had had an intervention for me.


Hey that reminds me - I think I'm going to go drive through the Olympic Game Farm tomorrow. I really like going there because the animals come right up to your car and stick their heads in the window for bread, it's pretty funny, they slime and drool all over the cars too.

Anyway, they have a whole bunch of those musk ox, which are really neat looking with all that long hair.
:lol:


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

susan tuck said:


> Hey that reminds me - I think I'm going to go drive through the Olympic Game Farm tomorrow. I really like going there because the animals come right up to your car and stick their heads in the window for bread, it's pretty funny, they slime and drool all over the cars too.
> 
> Anyway, they have a whole bunch of those musk ox, which are really neat looking with all that long hair.
> :lol:


 
Please post pics..


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

susan tuck said:


> Huh????? Maybe this is just another example of different people's definitions being different, but a dog being a club dog doesn't mean it's unstable, nor does it mean it's "inadequate", it just means it's doesn't have what it takes to compete on the National or International stage. Not every dog is going to be of high enough caliber to compete at the upper echelons of sport. There have ALWAYS been dogs that are just club dogs, which is normal because most handlers are only competing on the local level, whether because they don't have the talent or skills, or they lack the financial wherewithal or simply because that's all they want to do.


Ohhhhh, I don't know, I met a guy at a herding trial who described his mal as having a couple of different type of nerve issues but he was going to trial her in Sch. I said how/why. He said that was fine for a club level dog and she could probably only get a I. And if it has insufficient people and environmental nerves yet enough drive to get a I or even a III on its home field with its home decoy, then he was right---I didn't want it. So its how you define caliber, I guess.

T


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Katie Finlay said:


> What did everyone do with all of the puppies that didn't turn out?


I don't have a clue what they did with them. There is always pet/companion and other venues that don't involve bitework. But for sure, reading these threads, the thoughts on all of that seem to have changed. Its one thing to think in terms of club level due to time, money or handler skill/knowledge. Its something altogether different to think of it in terms of nerve strength or other things related to the dog. But I think bottom line we are back to what was before a test of certain innate abilities to now, pure sport and training. Its good to know.

T


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Dave Colborn said:


> Please post pics..


I sure will. Ok off to bed, early bird gets the worm, and I want to be first in line to feed the bears and the bison. 
:-\"


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

susan tuck said:


> Huh????? Maybe this is just another example of different people's definitions being different, but a dog being a club dog doesn't mean it's unstable, nor does it mean it's "inadequate", it just means it's doesn't have what it takes to compete on the National or International stage. Not every dog is going to be of high enough caliber to compete at the upper echelons of sport. There have ALWAYS been dogs that are just club dogs, which is normal because most handlers are only competing on the local level, whether because they don't have the talent or skills, or they lack the financial wherewithal or simply because that's all they want to do.


And in today's world what does it take to compete at National or International level that you don't need at the club level?

T


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## Steve Burger (Jan 2, 2009)

susan tuck said:


> Hey that reminds me - I think I'm going to go drive through the Olympic Game Farm tomorrow. I really like going there because the animals come right up to your car and stick their heads in the window for bread, it's pretty funny, they slime and drool all over the cars too.
> 
> Anyway, they have a whole bunch of those musk ox, which are really neat looking with all that long hair.
> :lol:


 Yeah, but you won't see me there this time...


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Steve Burger said:


> Yeah, but you won't see me there this time...


shhhh don't tell anyone about our secret tracking spot!!!!!!! Talk about distractions!!!!


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> And in today's world what does it take to compete at National or International level that you don't need at the club level?
> 
> T


Seriously? You are asking me what the difference is between a club level dog and a world team caliber dog? 
Frankly, I'm just not going to get into some crazy circuitous debate with you or anyone else, and that kind of feels like where you may be trying to take this now. The only thing I can tell you is get some more club and trial experience in schutzhund, then you may be able to see the difference.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

susan tuck said:


> Seriously? You are asking me what the difference is between a club level dog and a world team caliber dog? My suggestion would be that you go out to a lot more club training and trials, you'll get a feel for it.


Yeah, I figured you would respond accordingly. I already know what I think. Was curious as to what you and others think in terms of when someone asks about the quality of their puppies in a litter and the response is that it has "club level potential." You seem to think that it doesn't mean that is unstable or inadequate. So what is it? But I'm sure the TD knew me well enough to know that I didn't want it and he didn't either for that matter.

T


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## Steve Burger (Jan 2, 2009)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Yeah, I figured you would respond accordingly. I already know what I think. Was curious as to what you and others think in terms of when someone asks about the quality of their puppies in a litter and the response is that it has "club level potential." You seem to think that it doesn't mean that is unstable or inadequate. So what is it? But I'm sure the TD knew me well enough to know that I didn't want it and he didn't either for that matter.
> 
> T


I don't believe you can really tell that much in regards to how a puppy will turn out as an adult. Most scientific studies dispute the validity of puppy testing as a valid measure of adult temperament.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Yeah, I figured you would respond accordingly. I already know what I think. Was curious as to what you and others think in terms of when someone asks about the quality of their puppies in a litter and the response is that it has "club level potential." You seem to think that it doesn't mean that is unstable or inadequate. So what is it? But I'm sure the TD knew me well enough to know that I didn't want it and he didn't either for that matter.
> 
> T


BAHAHAHAHA!!!!! OK Terrasita, whatever. Believe what you want, if you want to believe the definition of a club dog is a dog with bad nerves, go for it, it really make no difference to me.
:roll:


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

Steve Burger said:


> I don't believe you can really tell that much in regards to how a puppy will turn out as an adult. Most scientific studies dispute the validity of puppy testing as a valid measure of adult temperament.


That's what I was thinking.

Anyway, my dog is a great club level dog. She could probably do well at a regional. But she would fail at a national. She's one of the most stable dogs I know. She's strong, but she's not that strong. The difference in the level of difficulty from a club to a national is huge.

To me not wanting a club dog is like not wanting any kid on your little league baseball team you don't think will go to MLB. 

But what do I know.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Katie Finlay said:


> That's what I was thinking.
> 
> Anyway, my dog is a great club level dog. She could probably do well at a regional. But she would fail at a national. She's one of the most stable dogs I know. She's strong, but she's not that strong. The difference in the level of difficulty from a club to a national is huge.
> 
> ...


I think this is why we have the theory of puppies as a crap shoot. I test puppies all the time and so far if it were nervy as puppy, it was nervy as an adult. Can you train and condition enough for scores in certain context? Sure. But is that dog limited from other contexts. Yes. Furthermore, ultimately its about gauging the success of breeding and making future breeding decisions. 

As far as level of difficulty and strength, what does that translate to specifically? Nerves? Ability to handle the pressure from a strange decoy? What? I'm not judging anyone's personal dogs. You do what you can with what you have. But in choosing a dog or puppy what are you looking at trait-wise when you say it is limited to club level?

T


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> I think this is why we have the theory of puppies as a crap shoot. I test puppies all the time and so far if it were nervy as puppy, it was nervy as an adult. Can you train and condition enough for scores in certain context? Sure. But is that dog limited from other contexts. Yes. Furthermore, ultimately its about gauging the success of breeding and making future breeding decisions.
> 
> As far as level of difficulty and strength, what does that translate to specifically? Nerves? Ability to handle the pressure from a strange decoy? What? I'm not judging anyone's personal dogs. You do what you can with what you have. But in choosing a dog or puppy what are you looking at trait-wise when you say it is limited to club level?
> 
> T


I see what you're saying. I've never been told a puppy would make a good club dog, I guess. I think I'd like to go pick one that has qualities I like and go from there. But even then it's still a crapshoot.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Club dog, over-regional dog, international champion dog, etc. etc. 

These dogs are not always so very different from one another. The one has an exceptional owner / handler with an exceptional team to support him and jumps from club dog to internationally acclaimed champion or in the first 10. 

The club dog that rises to the Zenit of club life is also a good dog. Maybe it could go further, maybe not? But the dog has had serious and competent training and is not to be "sniffed at".

Most of the dogs that are in the top ten internationally have had training at a high level from trainers who are competent and can bring handler and dog further than local club trials.

This "it will make a club dog" for me is disrespectful of dog and owner. Very often crapshoot puppies are a result of ignorance in training. We have good breeders and in a well bred litter there are not so many discrepancies in the pups. From very good to good is often the rule from a serious breeder.

Why, oh why are a lot of the handlers on this forum just interested internationally successful trial dogs when they (reading some of the posts) are not in the league to train them as such???


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Katie Finlay said:


> I see what you're saying. I've never been told a puppy would make a good club dog, I guess. I think I'd like to go pick one that has qualities I like and go from there. But even then it's still a crapshoot.


Depends, there are a couple of things I can think of right off the top of my head that would make someone predict the outcome of any given litter. I think if it were a German High Lines litter it's a safe bet the pups would be club level at best which is why you rarely see these dogs participating in anything beyond club level, or in the case of American Show lines most likely it would be difficult to title at any level. Same thing with some working lines, there are breeders who unfortunately are breeding the stuffing right out of the lines, they say dumb things like "we don't breed high drive dogs because we want dogs that can live in the home" (for one example). This is code for our dogs are mediocre shitter pet dogs but we want to breed them anyway so we're going to make up a reason why it's a good idea so we can sell them".
:lol::lol::lol:


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

susan tuck said:


> Depends, there are a couple of things I can think of right off the top of my head that would make someone predict the outcome of any given litter. I think if it were a German High Lines litter it's a safe bet the pups would be club level at best which is why you rarely see these dogs participating in anything beyond club level, or in the case of American Show lines most likely it would be difficult to title at any level. Same thing with some working lines, there are breeders who unfortunately are breeding the stuffing right out of the lines, they say dumb things like "we don't breed high drive dogs because we want dogs that can live in the home" (for one example). This is code for our dogs are mediocre shitter pet dogs but we want to breed them anyway so we're going to make up a reason why it's a good idea so we can sell them".
> :lol::lol::lol:


This is true!!


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

susan tuck said:


> Depends, there are a couple of things I can think of right off the top of my head that would make someone predict the outcome of any given litter. I think if it were a German High Lines litter it's a safe bet the pups would be club level at best which is why you rarely see these dogs participating in anything beyond club level, or in the case of American Show lines most likely it would be difficult to title at any level. Same thing with some working lines, there are breeders who unfortunately are breeding the stuffing right out of the lines, they say dumb things like "we don't breed high drive dogs because we want dogs that can live in the home" (for one example). This is code for our dogs are mediocre shitter pet dogs but we want to breed them anyway so we're going to make up a reason why it's a good idea so we can sell them".
> :lol::lol::lol:


And conversely, if it were a really well bred working line litter, chances of uniformity in drives, nerve, grips are high, so the difference between the pup that ends up as a club level dog and the one who goes on to compete on a world team has more to do with the goals of the handler, good training, dedication and the way the dog was raised, also having a really good teaching helper, and even a little good luck, than anything else.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Katie Finlay said:


> The difference in the level of difficulty from a club to a national is huge.
> But what do I know.


NO It's not. The exercise's are exactly the same. The jumps are the same height etc. The level of judging will get tighter and tougher but all the routines are the same.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Steve Burger said:


> I don't believe you can really tell that much in regards to how a puppy will turn out as an adult. Most scientific studies dispute the validity of puppy testing as a valid measure of adult temperament.


I totally agree. That's why when I pick a puppy I look for the one that I feel a connection with, not the one that "tests" better.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

That is true Thomas but maybe easier for some who are in training with competent trainers. The exercises are admittedly the same but the competition is fiercer. It's not only the dog that has to prove its worth. The handler must be up to it as well.


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

Thomas Barriano said:


> NO It's not. The exercise's are exactly the same. The jumps are the same height etc. The level of judging will get tighter and tougher but all the routines are the same.


Tighter and tougher judging isn't more difficult? The helper work at a national is exactly the same as a club trial? The tracking conditions? The stress of traveling and being in a completely new place?

IMO that all makes the level of difficulty higher.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Katie,

I guess it depends on how you define "difficult". As far as tracking conditions. I think some local trials have harder tracking conditions for the most part, then some Big events. You ever hear the pissing and moaning about National tracking conditions? ;-)


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Katie,
> 
> I guess it depends on how you define "difficult". As far as tracking conditions. I think some local trials have harder tracking conditions for the most part, then some Big events. You ever hear the pissing and moaning about National tracking conditions? ;-)


I feel like everyone moans about tracking conditions! Even people that get high SG (or even V) scores at nationals. I'm like really?! I would be thrilled with that score!


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## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Katie,
> 
> I guess it depends on how you define "difficult". As far as tracking conditions. I think some local trials have harder tracking conditions for the most part, then some Big events. You ever hear the pissing and moaning about National tracking conditions? ;-)


At our last trial the judge said "if I got out of the truck and this was the tracking field, I'd get back in and go home" lol


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

Hunter Allred said:


> At our last trial the judge said "if I got out of the truck and this was the tracking field, I'd get back in and go home" lol


What was it like?


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

A recent trial I attended. They moved from a sod farm to the County Fairgrounds? Barely enough room for all the dogs. Then we find out there was a human marathon the day before. My Dutch Shep reverted to an area search. Got both articles but nowhere near tracking. (56) The HIgh IPO I track was a multi time SchH III (semi retired doing a T1) Two IPO II dogs pulled when they saw how the IPO's did. The 3rd IPO II failed and the last/4th was given a 70 for effort.


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

I'm still a big believer in the fact that ring sport produced the Malinois and anybody who has attempted both ring sport and SCH can tell you it takes a much more "self motivated" dog to do ring sport. It is no wonder why these dogs crossover into SCH so easily with extremely good results. I think a possible downfall is when one starts breeding strictly for the sport of SCH. It is specifically disturbing when people only buy dogs from titled SCH parents, especially within the GSD world. Just my opinion but sometimes the better SCH dogs need a female dog with much more of a edge who might not fair well in competing, more reactive.


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## Steve Burger (Jan 2, 2009)

Katie Finlay said:


> Tighter and tougher judging isn't more difficult? The helper work at a national is exactly the same as a club trial?
> 
> IMO that all makes the level of difficulty higher.


 At our club it is usually the same. We want our helpers to bring a lot of pressure at all times. In addition when judges come to our club they tend to judge tougher than I have seen them do at other clubs.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

I find it remarkable that you guys think you can go to X working litter and just take home X puppy and think its going to suit your purposes. Neither you or the breeder have any selection criteria whatsoever other than it was bred from working lines/parents??? No wonder there is the belief that puppies are a crap shoot. I've never seen a litter, working line or otherwise that was that uniform in terms of working qualities. Which bitch and/or stud dog has that level of prepotency?

T


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> I find it remarkable that you guys think you can go to X working litter and just take home X puppy and think its going to suit your purposes. Neither you or the breeder have any selection criteria whatsoever other than it was bred from working lines/parents??? No wonder there is the belief that puppies are a crap shoot. I've never seen a litter, working line or otherwise that was that uniform in terms of working qualities. Which bitch and/or stud dog has that level of prepotency?
> 
> T


That's not what we're saying. 

But yes all puppies are a crap shoot.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Thomas Barriano said:


> A recent trial I attended. They moved from a sod farm to the County Fairgrounds? Barely enough room for all the dogs. Then we find out there was a human marathon the day before. My Dutch Shep reverted to an area search. Got both articles but nowhere near tracking. (56) The HIgh IPO I track was a multi time SchH III (semi retired doing a T1) Two IPO II dogs pulled when they saw how the IPO's did. The 3rd IPO II failed and the last/4th was given a 70 for effort.


 
Damn. And you think PSA is tough?? Sounds like if you passed your track at that trial, you know you did something difficult.


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## Dan Bowman (Nov 8, 2012)

Katie Finlay said:


> all puppies are a crap shoot.


Generally speaking I agree. But sometimes when the pup is exceptional you can tell. The reason we don't hear much about it is because exceptional dogs are few and far between. Only one time I knew an exceptional pup, and I knew he was at 3 months of age. I picked him up from a farm because the people couldn't handle him at 3 months, he'd jump up and bite at their arms while they were walking. After a week in my home he'd do a hold and bark on people that came to my house and keep them at the door with full confidence. I'm not saying I taught him to do it somehow, he did it naturally. Total confidence when I took him to a schutzhund club just to hang out, he walked around like he owned the place with all the dog smells around. It was amazing to see and there's no doubt in my mind he'd make a super working dog. But I was a dumbass over 20 years ago looking for perfection in a dog, and I could see he was going to have a snipey muzzle for a rott, so I gave him away. Just letting you know if you're fortunate enough to see it, with some pups you know when they're good. Now at 8 weeks of age I don't know.


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## Steve Burger (Jan 2, 2009)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> I find it remarkable that you guys think you can go to X working litter and just take home X puppy and think its going to suit your purposes. Neither you or the breeder have any selection criteria whatsoever other than it was bred from working lines/parents??? No wonder there is the belief that puppies are a crap shoot. I've never seen a litter, working line or otherwise that was that uniform in terms of working qualities. Which bitch and/or stud dog has that level of prepotency?
> 
> T


Dr. Gabi Hoffman, (a club member and wife to Lance Collins and 3 time WUSV competitor) did her Doctoral thesis in Animal Behavior on puppy testing. She followed 250 German Shepherd puppies. She tested at 7 weeks, 5 months and 18 months. She found absolutely no correlation between testing done at 7 weeks and temperament at 18 months. She did find some on puppies tested at 5 months, but still relatively unreliable. These findings surprised her at the time.


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## Steve Burger (Jan 2, 2009)

Timothy Stacy said:


> I'm still a big believer in the fact that ring sport produced the Malinois and anybody who has attempted both ring sport and SCH can tell you it takes a much more "self motivated" dog to do ring sport. It is no wonder why these dogs crossover into SCH so easily with extremely good results. I think a possible downfall is when one starts breeding strictly for the sport of SCH. It is specifically disturbing when people only buy dogs from titled SCH parents, especially within the GSD world. Just my opinion but sometimes the better SCH dogs need a female dog with much more of a edge who might not fair well in competing, more reactive.


 Sorry but I don't follow the logic.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Steve Burger said:


> Dr. Gabi Hoffman, (a club member and wife to Lance Collins and 3 time WUSV competitor) did her Doctoral thesis in Animal Behavior on puppy testing. She followed 250 German Shepherd puppies. She tested at 7 weeks, 5 months and 18 months. She found absolutely no correlation between testing done at 7 weeks and temperament at 18 months. She did find some on puppies tested at 5 months, but still relatively unreliable. These findings surprised her at the time.


 
That is interesting. Where could one find this thesis?


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Steve Burger said:


> Dr. Gabi Hoffman, (a club member and wife to Lance Collins and 3 time WUSV competitor) did her Doctoral thesis in Animal Behavior on puppy testing. She followed 250 German Shepherd puppies. She tested at 7 weeks, 5 months and 18 months. She found absolutely no correlation between testing done at 7 weeks and temperament at 18 months. She did find some on puppies tested at 5 months, but still relatively unreliable. These findings surprised her at the time.


 
Yeah, have seen reference to it. Would have to ask what type of puppy testing she did. But for me, there is definite correlation. Its what has worked me me for many years. I did a litter at 7 weeks and just seen them at 6 months. As conditioned pets--fine. Change the variables/environment and what was there at 7 weeks was still there. Just did a litter last week. All but one was sound sensitive. I don't expect that to change in adulthood. A certain amount of conditioning can mask it but with the right conditions, it will come up.

T


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Well, couldn't find Dr. Hoffman's study but the most discussion of its elements has been done here: http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f10/testing-litter-9645/index9.html. Since I literally live by my puppy testing, this is something that has intrigued me. Steve, how did your 2009 litter compare to your's and Lance's initial tests/thoughts? Anyway, I don't think it has anything to do with work vs. show and any follow-up testing would have to take into account training and conditioning. I have an ongoing discussion with a "conditioning" breeder who replied to my puppy testing results that everyone loves her dogs' temperaments. They are primarily in pet homes. Add the stress of work or a competition environment and they default.

T


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Dan Bowman said:


> Generally speaking I agree. But sometimes when the pup is exceptional you can tell. The reason we don't hear much about it is because exceptional dogs are few and far between. Only one time I knew an exceptional pup, and I knew he was at 3 months of age. I picked him up from a farm because the people couldn't handle him at 3 months, he'd jump up and bite at their arms while they were walking. After a week in my home he'd do a hold and bark on people that came to my house and keep them at the door with full confidence. I'm not saying I taught him to do it somehow, he did it naturally. Total confidence when I took him to a schutzhund club just to hang out, he walked around like he owned the place with all the dog smells around. It was amazing to see and there's no doubt in my mind he'd make a super working dog. But I was a dumbass over 20 years ago looking for perfection in a dog, and I could see he was going to have a snipey muzzle for a rott, so I gave him away. Just letting you know if you're fortunate enough to see it, with some pups you know when they're good. Now at 8 weeks of age I don't know.


 


Emilio Rodriguez said:


> I had a 4 month old pup do a confident bark and hold all on his own when someone came to my place. Believe what you want. Some things are hard wired and some good dogs are simply hard to ruin. I sold that pup because he wasn't typey and I wanted a good looking dog at the time. This was almost 20 years ago. Some fast maturing dogs are ready for real work before a year of age too.


 

I guess this supports your theory on exceptional pups being few and far between. This banned user had one that was few and far between too, and let him go, because his features weren't up to par almost 20 years ago. It's neat to hear of other people with similar experiences. I wonder if the dogs are from the same lines.....


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Great. There went the puppy testing. Steve if there is an online link to to Dr. Hoffman's thesis, I'd love to see it.

T


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## Mike Di Rago (Jan 9, 2009)

Not the study you referred to but interresting non the less.
Mike

http://dogsportblog.typepad.com/files/south-african-police-dog-puppy-testing-1.pdf


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Dave Colborn said:


> I guess this supports your theory on exceptional pups being few and far between. This banned user had one that was few and far between too, and let him go, because his features weren't up to par almost 20 years ago. It's neat to hear of other people with similar experiences. I wonder if the dogs are from the same lines.....


hahahaha!!!!!! Good catch, Dave
=D>=D>=D>


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Steve Burger said:


> People get what they train for.


And that they do!! 

There is a lot of people that think that think any training is good training. Well my friends it isn't. Just because a helper has a sleeve or a suit doesn't mean they know how to train, or the handler with that new gappay ball dropper vest either. There seems to be a lot of that out there. Appearances are not always what they seem I've found in any of the sports. 

Training protection I look at it as a training triangle between the dog, decoy and handler. You need at least 1 of the triangle to actually know what is going on preferably not just the 'dog'! When you have 3 that are inexperienced you have the trifecta of training disaster. Where nothing good can come from it, many start out like this that's for sure.

I always think that in our day in age one thing that has changed with training since the 80-90's is the advent of decent video and professional instructors with the numerous seminars held every where. Catering to any dog sport discipline. There wasn't that amount of seminars back then for sure. If you wanted to learn you had do it by trial and error out of a book. Now there is a lot more hands on approach with the videos and seminar facilitators. So there is a lot more info out there for participants to sift through. Whether that is good or bad I don't really know. I still prefer a hands on approach with someone with more experience and success to guide me and my dogs now. But that's just me.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Mike Di Rago said:


> Not the study you referred to but interresting non the less.
> Mike
> 
> http://dogsportblog.typepad.com/files/south-african-police-dog-puppy-testing-1.pdf


 
Thanks for posting this. 

I am going to print this when i have a chance, as I find it interesting. It leads me to believe that testing means nothing (at least this test, maybe all). It's impossible to tell how the individual dogs experiences both negative and positive impacted the test. 

Did the dogs improve due to age, or repetition of the test for "aggression" and startle? More questions for me now than before, still neat stuff, though.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

I can think of a number of times a breeder/trainer/handler has ended up with a great dog and when asked how he/she picked that particular puppy the response was "I didn't, it was just the last one left"....probably about as many times as "this was my pick of the litter". 
:lol:


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## Mike Di Rago (Jan 9, 2009)

Rick and Dave,
Welcome! Glad you take the time to read this.
There are a few more researches on the subject that I picked up over the years and many SEEM to show that the upbringing of the pups plays a very big role.Our police force used this approach with the puppy rearing program we had about 10 years ago.Some of the pups we looked at at 8 weeks and seemed average, when well paired up ended developing better then some that appeared more promising at 8 weeks. Although my observations were by no means scientific, I still think there is something keep in mind.
Mike


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

_... he'd do a hold and bark ..... with full confidence. ... But I was a dumbass over 20 years ago looking for perfection in a dog and I could see he was going to have a snipey muzzle .... 

.... do a confident bark and hold all on his own ... I sold that pup because he wasn't typey and I wanted a good looking dog at the time. This was almost 20 years ago. _


Wow, Dan. It's like deja vu all over again. :-o


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## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

susan tuck said:


> I can think of a number of times a breeder/trainer/handler has ended up with a great dog and when asked how he/she picked that particular puppy the response was "I didn't, it was just the last one left"....probably about as many times as "this was my pick of the litter".
> :lol:


Only exceeded by how many times people approach me in public when I have my dogs with me and tell me they have/had a GSD and that "He was a police academy flunky". Men always seem to say "he wouldn't let go" or "he was too hard headed". Women always seem to say "he was too nice" or "he just didn't want to bite people".

One girl I went on a date with actually said "we had a former police dog when I was a kid. His secret attack word was 'fruit loops', and my mom taught me that if someone tried to hurt me if I were ever to say that he would attack whoever was threatening me". I didn't want to spoil her memory so I just ran with it lol.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Connie Sutherland said:


> _... he'd do a hold and bark ..... with full confidence. ... But I was a dumbass over 20 years ago looking for perfection in a dog and I could see he was going to have a snipey muzzle ....
> 
> .... do a confident bark and hold all on his own ... I sold that pup because he wasn't typey and I wanted a good looking dog at the time. This was almost 20 years ago. _
> 
> ...


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## Steve Burger (Jan 2, 2009)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Well, couldn't find Dr. Hoffman's study but the most discussion of its elements has been done here: http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f10/testing-litter-9645/index9.html. Since I literally live by my puppy testing, this is something that has intrigued me. Steve, how did your 2009 litter compare to your's and Lance's initial tests/thoughts? Anyway, I don't think it has anything to do with work vs. show and any follow-up testing would have to take into account training and conditioning. I have an ongoing discussion with a "conditioning" breeder who replied to my puppy testing results that everyone loves her dogs' temperaments. They are primarily in pet homes. Add the stress of work or a competition environment and they default.
> 
> T


 My "pick male" sort of washed out. I never knew what dog would come on the field. One time he would be all that, the next time he would be more interested in sight seeing than the helper. I gave him to my daughter. I could title him, but he does not bring what I want. 

I am not sure of what happened to most of the other ones. The pup that showed the least drive as a puppy, went to a woman who was a bit older and seemed very unlikely to actually work him. She actually joined a FR club and worked him for a while until she was at odds with the TD on how to proceed. In his opinion the dog was a "super dog" and he (the TD) is one who has placed in the top 10 in the world championships in FR. I don't know if any other trainers actually followed through. For a few years people would send feedback as to how their dogs were doing in training, but don't know of any that have titled. Usually I talked to the TD's who told me the dog showed promise but no follow through on the handlers.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Dave Colborn said:


> I guess this supports your theory on exceptional pups being few and far between. This banned user had one that was few and far between too, and let him go, because his features weren't up to par almost 20 years ago. It's neat to hear of other people with similar experiences. I wonder if the dogs are from the same lines.....


WTF!! Do you have a photographic memory or something? :twisted: How apropos.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Nicole Stark said:


> WTF!! Do you have a photographic memory or something? :twisted: How apropos.


 
Emilio's post is in the thread I posted here.

T


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Emilio's post is in the thread I posted here.
> 
> T


Yeah i was being facetious.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Steve Burger said:


> My "pick male" sort of washed out. I never knew what dog would come on the field. One time he would be all that, the next time he would be more interested in sight seeing than the helper. I gave him to my daughter. I could title him, but he does not bring what I want.
> 
> I am not sure of what happened to most of the other ones. The pup that showed the least drive as a puppy, went to a woman who was a bit older and seemed very unlikely to actually work him. She actually joined a FR club and worked him for a while until she was at odds with the TD on how to proceed. In his opinion the dog was a "super dog" and he (the TD) is one who has placed in the top 10 in the world championships in FR. I don't know if any other trainers actually followed through. For a few years people would send feedback as to how their dogs were doing in training, but don't know of any that have titled. Usually I talked to the TD's who told me the dog showed promise but no follow through on the handlers.


 
So what test did you do besides Lance's 3. Also, the little female and Tank, how did they fare nd what age did you wash out your pick?

T


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## Steve Burger (Jan 2, 2009)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> So what test did you do besides Lance's 3. Also, the little female and Tank, how did they fare nd what age did you wash out your pick?
> 
> T


Tank is the one who did FR. I talked to the TD of the club where the little silver collared girl went to. He said the dog looked real good but a real lack of consistency on the handler. I washed Ace out at about 18 months. My daughter had him out the weekend before last and he actually looked ok..that time. I would like her to do some more with him. He is actually pretty strong and when he is on, he can be impressive. Overall I think he was dropped on his head at birth, that is the best explanation.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Nicole Stark said:


> Yeah i was being facetious.


That hurts, Nicole. My memory may not be photographic, but I can usually find my house, and remember my dogs names....


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## Steve Burger (Jan 2, 2009)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Great. There went the puppy testing. Steve if there is an online link to to Dr. Hoffman's thesis, I'd love to see it.
> 
> T


 It is not on the web. I will bug her about scanning it at least and trying to get a link, but don't hold your breath. They still have not unpacked all their boxes from moving 2 years ago.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

"Pick of the litter" is all about what your needs are. The whole litter could be first picks for somebody.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Steve Burger said:


> Tank is the one who did FR. I talked to the TD of the club where the little silver collared girl went to. He said the dog looked real good but a real lack of consistency on the handler. I washed Ace out at about 18 months. My daughter had him out the weekend before last and he actually looked ok..that time. I would like her to do some more with him. He is actually pretty strong and when he is on, he can be impressive. Overall I think he was dropped on his head at birth, that is the best explanation.


 
Thanks. So what made you go with Ace? I tend towards the strong nerve so what you said about Tank interested me and next, the bitch. Did you think Ace was drivier? 

T


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Steve Burger said:


> It is not on the web. I will bug her about scanning it at least and trying to get a link, but don't hold your breath. They still have not unpacked all their boxes from moving 2 years ago.


Gabi would be crazy if she posted her paper to be picked clean by the Internet Experts/Piranha ;-)


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## Steve Burger (Jan 2, 2009)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Thanks. So what made you go with Ace? I tend towards the strong nerve so what you said about Tank interested me and next, the bitch. Did you think Ace was drivier?
> 
> T


Ace was much drivier than Tank and had enthusiasm for tugs, rags, scrapping, etc. Tank showed almost no drive as a young puppy. The female actually showed the most but I wanted to work a male at the time. Hindsight is 20/20.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

I am of the opinion that puppy testing is not very good at determining much more that certain character traits.

I am pretty confident in those, as they have been pretty much dead on for me, in my personal experiences...the rest is up in the air...


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Joby Becker said:


> I am of the opinion that puppy testing is not very good at determining much more that certain character traits.
> 
> I am pretty confident in those, as they have been pretty much dead on for me, in my personal experiences...the rest is up in the air...




Which traits would you say are reliably demonstrated with puppy testing?


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Gabi would be crazy if she posted her paper to be picked clean by the Internet Experts/Piranha ;-)


Its a doctoral thesis which I'm sure she had to defend. Perhaps she's confident enough to entertain opinions of others via internet or othewise. If you've read what's been posted already, she says that a breeder's experience with the litter as it was growing up is the best think to consider and that some traits are consistent with the puppy training. 

T


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Its a doctoral thesis which I'm sure she had to defend. Perhaps she's confident enough to entertain opinions of others via internet or othewise. If you've read what's been posted already, she says that a breeder's experience with the litter as it was growing up is the best think to consider and that some traits are consistent with the puppy training.
> 
> T


Defend to a group of Academics not a bunch of self proclaimed Internet Experts. It's up to her to decide.
I wouldn't waste my time. Confidence has nothing to do with it.
More like winning the Special Olympics..........


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## Doug Zaga (Mar 28, 2010)

Joby Becker said:


> I am of the opinion that puppy testing is not very good at determining much more that certain character traits.
> 
> I am pretty confident in those, as they have been pretty much dead on for me, in my personal experiences...the rest is up in the air...





Connie Sutherland said:


> Which traits would you say are reliably demonstrated with puppy testing?


 
I would like to know Joby's opinions too.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Defend to a group of Academics not a bunch of self proclaimed Internet Experts. It's up to her to decide.
> I wouldn't waste my time. Confidence has nothing to do with it.
> More like winning the Special Olympics..........


Academics vs. those that actually whelp, raise and work dogs and you think she would be totally disinterested??? Maybe instead of worrying about someone questioning, she may some benefit to having the actual facts available. The key is knowing how and what she tested. Knowing how Volhard is done which is based on a rating system and subjectivity, that alone tells me a reason for the variance. There may be others that explains her conclusions if you have the actual data in front of you. 

T


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Steve Burger said:


> Ace was much drivier than Tank and had enthusiasm for tugs, rags, scrapping, etc. Tank showed almost no drive as a young puppy. The female actually showed the most but I wanted to work a male at the time. Hindsight is 20/20.


That's a tough decision when its the first litter and you don't have a reference point. How was Ace different in nerve strength from Tank. Sounds like Ace is hitting the first leg of maturity and he'll be at his best at age 5. Not common for the herding dogs to be flaky about pressure--particular from the handler around age 1 to even 2 3/4. Like you describe with Ace, they are sort of in and out. Start getting closer to age 3 and wallah!!!


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