# Prong use ?



## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

OK I would imagine that this may be on this board somewhere but I can’t find it. Many of you may think it’s a stupid question but I would like to see if you guys sort of agree on the answer. 
My question is; when using a prong collar what do you guys believe to be the right ring to hook your lead two. My understanding is to hook the lead to both rings, the dead ring and the swiveling ring. 
It was explained to me that this method allows for less arm movement for a correction but more importantly does not make the collar a choker. It was explained to me that the swivel ring was to be used alone to tie the dog out with if need be, other than that to hook to both. 
Now this makes sense to me and is the only way I use it and I am sticking with it but I have had a few people who are much more experienced than me which is very easy to be, tell me to hook to the swivel when working the dog.


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## todd pavlus (Apr 30, 2008)

Putting it on the swivel is what you do when you want the "pinch" correction, when you hook both rings, it's basically used like a flat collar with prongs. Woo hoo, more prong collar posts, :| uh oh:-o


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

todd pavlus said:


> Putting it on the swivel is what you do when you want the "pinch" correction, when you hook both rings, it's basically used like a flat collar with prongs. Woo hoo, more prong collar posts, :| uh oh:-o


Sorry man I just had to ask, I am sure its like beating a dead horse for you guys. I have a tough time figuring things out when so many “experts” give me such different answers on such a simple thing such as this. The answer I keep finding out is they all seam to work, for some reason many “experts” seam to be adamant on there way as if there was no other. I was just wondering if I was going to get people to say its one way or the other and that is that.


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## Laura Bollschweiler (Apr 25, 2008)

Chris,

I've been told both ways. I usually use the swivel ring because I can feel the correction better. That's the feedback I need. The Germans I've trained with prefer to hook the leash to both rings because, one reason, it gives a quicker, more timely correction. I clearly remember one of the big names in SchH saying "it's offensive to a dog" when talking about using just the swivel ring.

(don't read the following if you have issues with the prong)
Frankly, being a weakling with a big dog, I think the swivel gives me the momentum I need to make a meaningful correction. I can have all the technique in the world, but if I don't have power, I got nothing.

Now, the Belgian dude I trained with once preferred the prong to be loose enough to slip over the head and use the swivel ring. He didn't like that I had the prong tight and right behind the ears.

To each his own?

Laura


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Laura said;
"Now, the Belgian dude I trained with once preferred the prong to be loose enough to slip over the head and use the swivel ring. He didn't like that I had the prong tight and right behind the ears"

When the pinch is worn loose it does exactly that. Pinch, and pinch to the point of serious pain. Some folks require pain in their dog training. 
Not my choice even though, used correctly, many use the pinch properly for corrections.


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Chris McDonald said:


> It was explained to me that the swivel ring was to be used alone to tie the dog out with if need be, other than that to hook to both.


 I would never do this. One hard lunge and a serious self correction can do damage that I don't want. A flat collar or harness is all I use on the tie out. If I'm with the dog on the tie out then I'll put a pinch on as well so that I am the one giving a correction if need be. JMO.

Howard


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

Ditto. I feel sorry for the active dog that is tied out on a swivel.

I use both rings personally.


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Mike Schoonbrood said:


> Ditto. I feel sorry for the active dog that is tied out on a swivel.
> 
> I use both rings personally.



The dog dictates which rings I use, and what I'm trying to accomplish. Both rings for softer dogs (if they need a pinch at all), and swivel ring for harder dogs or when bite building.

Howard


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Oooops mis-read the title. Thought it was THONG use,


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## Dan Long (Jan 10, 2008)

I use the swivel ring, but I always have a flat collar on the dog as well while training. The flat is the main connection between the dog and I, the prong has a leash on it for a quick correction if one is needed.


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

Howard Knauf said:


> and swivel ring for harder dogs or when bite building.


Bite building on the swivel? Explain?


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

You can build the bite by agitating the neck area with the prong. A series of mini corrections (for lack of a better word) while the dog is on the bite will turn the dog on via the nerves in the neck. Most times a better/harder bite is achieved.

You can do this with a prong on the lead, or you can get hands on with the dog and do the same without the lead. When the dog is on the bite come up behind him and grab the prong in both hands in an almost choking position. Praise the dog and slap the prong or rake it back and forth on the neck. You'd be amazed in the difference in the dogs intensity.

Howard


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

Oh I've felt the intensity  Just never seen it done on a single ring.


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Thats the way I was taught anyway. Everyone has their own method. The mini pops on the prong are not corrective, only to turn the dog on. What you've seen done would be helpful, and maybe something I'd like to try if only to see the difference.

Howard


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Howard Knauf said:


> The mini pops on the prong are not corrective, only to turn the dog on.


I've seen that done to and it mostly depends on the dog. You can do the same thing on most any training collar .. to me and doesn't have a lot to do with the tool .. but what we as handlers project down the leash in doing it. Heck you could even use you voice to amp up a dog if that is what your dog responds to. YMMV.

For the OP.

As I see it if you are fair with the dog and use any collar the proper way(sparingly) it is not the collar that is training the dog but our guidance. 

Back when I was training the return to heel after combat with the decoy. I had to use a prong. Now that is proofed I've gone back to the fur saver. The prong collar on the live ring (swivel) with a high level correction woke her up and drove home the point that there would be a negative conditioner if she did not return to heel under the distraction of the decoy. 

When we correct our dogs with any corrective collar (not just a prong) we have to make sure that it obtains a response otherwise we are only hardening our dogs. It is our job to PLAY THE ROLE OF THE LEADER and show our dogs that we are more patient, perserverant and that we will follow through to the END every time.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Howard that is the call. We do the same thing, the thing is to use a mini pumping action with the prong. It is intended to help "set" or activate the dog into a deeper bite or drive. It is like using light electric from the e-collar, or like a clicker to mark and reset the behavior.

With my Bouvier, I do a slight pumping of the collar and as he is biting, "Gettem, packen, ya boy," or other cleaver terms. "Bite the MFer!!!" Like the e-collar, it will not work for all dogs, but I've seen and done it with success.


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Geoff said..


> I've seen that done to and it mostly depends on the dog.


True. Thats why I said most dogs. If you're dealing with good dogs most of the time there is a high percentage of success.


H3 said..


> Howard that is the call. We do the same thing,


 Nice to know I'm not alone here. At least not entirely on the dark side.8)


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Howard Knauf said:


> Thats why I said most dogs. If you're dealing with good dogs most of the time there is a high percentage of success. Nice to know I'm not alone here. At least not entirely on the dark side.8)


Howard have you tried the same type of amping up the dog on a flat or fursaver? I know the e-collar as Howard III says works the same as the prong in that context. What have you found with other type of collars?

Since my little bitch is not much over 42lbs she sometimes doesn't get a full initial grip. So our club decoy will move in and take a bit of slack off her line and she goes in deeper for the full grip. Once she has the full grip she gets all sorts of praise from me and action from the decoy. I'd like to try amping her up tonight during bite-work with a collar instead of my voice. Just to see .. for fun.


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Hi Geoff,

I use the flat collar to work grip as well but not in the same manner. The fur saver has only one point of contact and that is at the rings. It also chokes the dog which is not what I want. The reason the prong works better is because of multiple contact points exciting the dog's nerves. It's much like trying to shoot a flying pheasant with a .22 instead of a shotgun. The shotgun being more effective.

Your little bitch is countering into the sleeve which is good. You are rewarding that movement which is the proper thing to do and is good training, as long as she doesn't get all hectic on you from the high praise.

Let us know how she handles the collar work. A bit of foresight.....when you first do this on a dog that has never had it done before, sometimes they will prematurely out. Just ignore it, give a pachen command and try again. It doesn't take long for them to figure out what you want. She'll soon ignore the minor pops but she won't be able to help herself when she turns on.

Howard


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Howard Knauf said:


> I use the flat collar to work grip as well but not in the same manner. The fur saver has only one point of contact and that is at the rings. It also chokes the dog which is not what I want. The reason the prong works better is because of multiple contact points exciting the dog's nerves. It's much like trying to shoot a flying pheasant with a .22 instead of a shotgun. The shotgun being more effective.


But doesn't a e-collar on low stim on the nick button repeatedly have the same effect? That still only has 2 contact points? 

I was going to use a fur saver on the dead ring to try at first. I could put her prong on too and see. I assumed that yes she would 'out' if I popped her with the prong. I may add a link and just utilize the dead ring so it isn't as responsive. As she may be a little collar wise to the prong as a negative reinforcement from her return to heel issues last spring. 

Another thing we were holding her back tied static line and not giving her slack except for 6" or so when she was not fully engaged in her bite on the suit (these are leg bites) So that would give her the room to re-engage. I am using the static line to keep her forward into the bite for lack of a better description. 

I hear you re: keeping the praise calm. We leave for the club in a couple of hours and will like you know how the prong works for her in that scenario. Thanks for the ideas.


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

To be honest, Geoff...I've never used an e-collar for this. It's just one of those things I've not done yet. My comments on why it works may be way off base so whoever knows for sure, please correct me if I'm wrong.

True that the ecollar only has 2 contact points. But were talking a different type of stimulation here...one is mechanical, the other electrical. Here's an analogy of why I think it works......When you get shocked by an electrical chord the shock doesn't feel like it is only at that one point where you are touching. You feel the impulse all the way up your arm. This is my reasoning for feeling that the ecollar can do the same thing. The dog has bundles of nerves packed in his neck which are easily stimulated form an electrical inpulse that transmit further than the two contact points. So now the dog feels more than just where the contacts are.

Again, I haven't used the ecollar for this and I may be way off base but my common sense thought on this is the above. To use a flat collar, or fur saver on dead ring does what?....it pulls the dog away from what it has obtained and creates a distraction instead of focus. . So now you have a dog fighting the equipment through distraction to maintain its catch instead of stimulating the dog to grip harder. Tomato/tomotto. IMO its two different things.

Have to take care of some work biddness now.

Howard


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## Al Curbow (Mar 27, 2006)

You guys still use the prongs for you're ecollars? The SCG-LBM adapter is a lot easier on the dog and the owner. No prongs so you don't have to turn it or anything like that


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## Chris Wild (Jan 30, 2008)

Which ring you use affects how the collar works for correcting.

Hooking to both rings applies a directional correction because the collar cannot constrict. You yank in one direction and the prongs on the opposite side of the dog dig into the side of his neck. Done this way, the prongs issue more of a poke than a pinch.

Hooking to just the live ring, not both, allows the collar to constrict (though if properly fitted it still isn't a choke and can't choke the dog) This allows the prongs to fold over, giving a pinch instead of a poke, and the correction is more evenly distributed all the way around the dog's neck.

There's no right/wrong way to use it. Depends on which type of correction you're after, which in turn should be dependent on what your working on for that individual training session.. will directional or more universal corrections be more effective to get your point across.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: Sorry man I just had to ask, I am sure its like beating a dead horse for you guys. I have a tough time figuring things out when so many “experts” give me such different answers on such a simple thing such as this. The answer I keep finding out is they all seam to work, for some reason many “experts” seam to be adamant on there way as if there was no other. I was just wondering if I was going to get people to say its one way or the other and that is that. 

Gods honest truth, this is where the internet ****s things up. The bottom line is if you have a good dog, and consistant training, always working towards your goal, you will probably achieve what it is you are after. Too many people experiment all the time with new things, and it really achieves nothing. New things need to be tried with new dogs, and a new plan, for the most part.

The big thing about the internet is people with only "some" experience will chime in, regurgitating something someone else has said, even though they have limited experience.

As far as using a pinch collar, go back to the original idea of correction. A correction is an interuption of the undesired behavior. So whatever interrupts your dogs behavior is what you should do. Kinda takes what ring out of the equation.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote : Depends on which type of correction you're after


This shit drives me nuts. refer to my other post. Sorry Chris, type of correction is crap. The relationship that you have with your dog should be such that you do not need "types" of corrections.

C'mon people this is basic dog training. Have we really gotten this ****ed up ? ? ? ?


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote : Depends on which type of correction you're after
> 
> 
> This shit drives me nuts. refer to my other post. Sorry Chris, type of correction is crap. The relationship that you have with your dog should be such that you do not need "types" of corrections.
> ...


I have heard you say some very profound things about dog training and behaviors then you say shit like this the makes you sound like you don't know your ass from a hole in the ground. DAMN WTF is wrong with you you meant to say there is only one way and reason to use a pinch collar. And if your going to ask me to explain its many uses. I'll give ya one that comes to mind I throw it at dumb asses.


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

> I throw it at dumb asses.


Would that interrupt their behavior? If so, then it would ultimately still be a correction.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Mike, I am so ****ing far beyond all this shit, I do not need a prong. I use no food, no corrections and soon will have a website stateing this bull.....I mean method.  :lol: :lol: 

I really rarely use a pinch, as I am not so ****ing dumb to screw up my foundation work so badly that I need types of corrections.

I use a type of corection called the kick, or another type called the slap. No collar necessary. Without a really good foundation, you cannot use these methods of correcting a dog that has told you to go **** yourself, as they will just run away in confusion.

He could give a **** about the pinch, so whats the point of it ? ? ? When I go after him, he takes it seriously.

These people need to figure out how to build a great foundation, and quit trying to figure out stupid shit like correction types. 

Maybe that is what I should have said in the first place.#-o #-o #-o


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

OK Jeff. We know where you stand on using a prong as a correction tool.....how do you feel about using it as a drive building tool? Be brutally honest and don't hold back now.:razz:


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## Lisa Maze (Mar 30, 2007)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Mike, I am so ****ing far beyond all this shit, I do not need a prong. I use no food, no corrections and soon will have a website stateing this bull.....I mean method.  :lol: :lol:
> 
> Hey, you sound like Brittany from A-1. I remember their ads in the back of Dog Fancy with pictures of huge, overweight Dobes and Rottweilers. Whatever happened to Redman?
> 
> ...


Lisa


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## Lisa Maze (Mar 30, 2007)

Howard Knauf said:


> OK Jeff. We know where you stand on using a prong as a correction tool.....how do you feel about using it as a drive building tool? Be brutally honest and don't hold back now.:razz:


This seems to be a GSD thing. I have seen it done and it works but with one exception I have never seen it used on Malinois. Overall the nerve base of the dogs is different. GSDs tend to have higher thresholds than Malinois and often it takes more external stimulation (whip, pain and pressure) to bring out actual aggression. Using the prong in this manner on most Malinois would just create hectic overdrive.

We are currently doing something similar with Kameron's GSD Bart out at the club. He is an old school GSD with medium prey drive, high thresholds and is developing a nice bit of aggression/fight as he matures. We first tapped into this by accident in the obedience when we began to use an e-collar. Not only did he get a little angry but his arousal level jumped a notch or two and he channeled it nicely into his play with his handler.

It is a work in progress and he will have his second session this weekend. The guys at the club are ringsport decoys so they do not have much experienve with this type of mood management. Our first session looked good and I look forward to seeing his reaction this weekend.

Lisa


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Lisa Maze said:


> This seems to be a GSD thing. I have seen it done and it works but with one exception I have never seen it used on Malinois. Overall the nerve base of the dogs is different. GSDs tend to have higher thresholds than Malinois and often it takes more external stimulation (whip, pain and pressure) to bring out actual aggression. Using the prong in this manner on most Malinois would just create hectic overdrive.
> 
> We are currently doing something similar with Kameron's GSD Bart out at the club. He is an old school GSD with medium prey drive, high thresholds and is developing a nice bit of aggression/fight as he matures. We first tapped into this by accident in the obedience when we began to use an e-collar. Not only did he get a little angry but his arousal level jumped a notch or two and he channeled it nicely into his play with his handler.
> 
> ...


=D>AHH a Malinois trainer that understands the working Shepherd bravo! For demonstration purposes if obedience is looking a little flat or drab a quick tug on the flank will spark some spirited obedience be careful I surely wouldn't make a habit of this be prepared for some serious spirited play when you pay your dog. 
Be mindful/watchful with the collar using it this way.


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

As far as using a pinch collar, go back to the original idea of correction. A correction is an interuption of the undesired behavior. So whatever interrupts your dogs behavior is what you should do. Kinda takes what ring out of the equation.[/quote]

I did not ask if one way or the other is considered a correction, I am fairly certain everyone understands both can be considered a correction. I was wondering if I was going to have anyone say that hooking to the swivel can cause long term damage like they say about a straight choker.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Chris McDonald said:


> I did not ask if one way or the other is considered a correction, I am fairly certain everyone understands both can be considered a correction. I was wondering if I was going to have anyone say that hooking to the swivel can cause long term damage like they say about a straight choker.


Well we have all read that urban myth about chokers causing damage to dogs' necks. To me any collar can damage a dogs neck if you abuse it .. goes with the territory right? 

As for Prongs causing damage yes they can cause damage if you pound on them. 

My prong is a small prong with lots of surface area and fitted high up on my dogs neck for quick snappy action. We were working recalls under high distractions and someone else was holding the long line for me. I blow the whistle and she hesitates so the person on the long line reams her hard ... Then she was in avoidance any time I gave a light pop on the prong right after. Obviously the stupid correction was way over the top .. I took the collar off and she was bleeding from the prong picks. I learnt something that day always be careful of who you hand your leash too.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Lisa Maze said:


> This seems to be a GSD thing. I have seen it done and it works but with one exception I have never seen it used on Malinois. Overall the nerve base of the dogs is different. GSDs tend to have higher thresholds than Malinois and often it takes more external stimulation (whip, pain and pressure) to bring out actual aggression. Using the prong in this manner on most Malinois would just create hectic overdrive.


You are right. Last night my TD and I decided not to try the prong as a motivator just for this very reason. It doesn't take much to make my bitch rev to 14,000 rpm.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Chris McDonald said:


> > As far as using a pinch collar, go back to the original idea of correction. A correction is an interuption of the undesired behavior. So whatever interrupts your dogs behavior is what you should do. Kinda takes what ring out of the equation.
> 
> 
> I did not ask if one way or the other is considered a correction, I am fairly certain everyone understands both can be considered a correction. I was wondering if I was going to have anyone say that hooking to the swivel can cause long term damage like they say about a straight choker.



No it won't cause long term damage. I had a little dog that had a collapsing trachea - damage from a chain collar. I had to handle her on a prong (or a body harness *gulp*) to prevent further damage to her trachea.

Think about the mechanics of a prong. You'd be seeing lots of blood before the dog's trachea would get damaged. Meaning - for the collar to choke the dog and damage the dog's traches, the prongs would have to be fully imbedded in the dog's neck. Clearly, this is purely theoretical and such use would constitute animal abuse for even the most stoic, coldhearted people.

Both ways of using the collar can deliver effective correction. 

Live Ring: more accuracy. less leash/arm movement required. potential for finer correction. potential for greater/harsher correction.

Dead Ring: directional correction. more consistent degree of correction.

Take your pick. It's a minor difference. Teach your dog what you expect of it first, be a consistent and competent trainer and it won't matter at all which ring you use. Heck, you might even find out you don't need it at all.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: OK Jeff. We know where you stand on using a prong as a correction tool.....how do you feel about using it as a drive building tool? Be brutally honest and don't hold back now.









If you have to do this, what kind of dog do you have ??????

next question, what does the prong become then ? ? ? ?

Quote: I did not ask if one way or the other is considered a correction, I am fairly certain everyone understands both can be considered a correction. I was wondering if I was going to have anyone say that hooking to the swivel can cause long term damage like they say about a straight choker. 

I think that if a person cannot figure out that cranking the **** out of a dog over long periods of time is going to cause damage, not to mention the sheer stupidity of it, then they should just not be allowed dogs. Think about how ****ing dumb that question is. I was trying to save you from yourself. So, which ring doesn't matter you can mash a dog with either. Go back and see what I wrote about needing a foundation. When you get that right, crushing corrections are not needed........as if they should ever be used. 


Quote: =D>AHH a Malinois trainer that understands the working Shepherd bravo! For demonstration purposes if obedience is looking a little flat or drab a quick tug on the flank will spark some spirited obedience be careful I surely wouldn't make a habit of this be prepared for some serious spirited play when you pay your dog. 

Here we go, here is my obvious response, your foundation sucks, your probably overtraining to the point of boredom, and if you have a dog that needs to be flanked to show spirited OB, well it either junk, or hates you........I chose the latter.

What do your club members do when you are not doing "spirited" work ??? Do they grab your ball sack and tug down real hard ? ? ? ?


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: Both ways of using the collar can deliver effective correction. 

Proving once again, that idiots and prongs don't mix. Where is your foundation work ? ? ? ? ? ?

If you guys where home builders, your shit would be crooked and splitting in half.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: Both ways of using the collar can deliver effective correction.
> 
> Proving once again, that idiots and prongs don't mix. Where is your foundation work ? ? ? ? ? ?
> 
> If you guys where home builders, your shit would be crooked and splitting in half.


Jeff - I see you "forgot" to include the heart of my post. I'll repeat it again:



> Teach your dog what you expect of it *first*, be a consistent and competent trainer and it won't matter at all which ring you use. Heck, you might even find out you don't need it at all.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I didn't forget anything. I was just making sure that people knew how disgusted I was about "guiding" and "types" of correction......or causing pain to make "spirited" OB. LOL


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Raw steak bits and a tug toy make for some spirited OB. :lol:


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: OK Jeff. We know where you stand on using a prong as a correction tool.....how do you feel about using it as a drive building tool? Be brutally honest and don't hold back now.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Jeff,

You miss the point then. If you believe that a trainer never has to accelerate the training to produce or mould a dog capable of taking care of business, then why don't you agree with the new law preventing soft stick hits that Gillian wrote about on another thread? After all, if everyone could own the "chosen One" then we would never have to get off the couch. The dog would be Jesus and not need any input from mere mortals, train itself, and get you a beer from the fridge and a hoagie for himself.


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Anne Vaini said:


> No it won't cause long term damage. I had a little dog that had a collapsing trachea - damage from a chain collar. I had to handle her on a prong (or a body harness *gulp*) to prevent further damage to her trachea.
> 
> This is the first time I have every spoke/typed with some one who actually said they had a dog damaged by a choker. I did believe that it may be able to happen but this is my first time of hearing/reading it from the horse’s mouth


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

I think that if a person cannot figure out that cranking the **** out of a dog over long periods of time is going to cause damage, not to mention the sheer stupidity of it, then they should just not be allowed dogs. Think about how ****ing dumb that question is. I was trying to save you from yourself. So, which ring doesn't matter you can mash a dog with either. Go back and see what I wrote about needing a foundation. When you get that right, crushing corrections are not needed........as if they should ever be used. 



I could go back and read what you have written about your creating a “foundation”. But chances are your just repeating what you read in another forum from. #-o 
I have been reading the replies to my question and my conclusion so far is that a prong does not cause any damage (at least when used properly). Do you know of any cases that prove other? That’s what I am looking for. 
As of right now if I see someone hook there lead to just the swivel I don’t have be one of those people that  dive and yell “ooo my god, don’t do that I read on line it can mess up you dogs neck” not that I would anyway 
Thanks for trying to save me from myself due to my stupid question, yes I can see how it could be considered a stupid question, but I did get some interesting answers. 
Even though it was stupid question I still don’t think you understood it. Try reading it slower or out loud to yourself. :idea:


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## todd pavlus (Apr 30, 2008)

Hey Chris don't worry about it, that's what the forum is here for, to learn and ask questions. Some people here already know the answers to everything:roll: , but even they had to start somewhere. Just don't take things personally. One thing I've learned about training dogs, is to have a thick skin when it comes to criticizm.


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

todd pavlus said:


> Hey Chris don't worry about it, that's what the forum is here for, to learn and ask questions. Some people here already know the answers to everything:roll: , but even they had to start somewhere. Just don't take things personally. One thing I've learned about training dogs, is to have a thick skin when it comes to criticizm.


 
I hear you, I got thick skin and I love this place! After hanging out and reading things for a few months that just seams to be the way everyone answers Jeff. Common we all know he loves it! I could just picture him in front of his computer.. empty vodka bottles he swiped from his work all around… sitting in his tightly whites with no shirt on …. Two monitors one with dog chat rooms the other porn.. we all could see it :lol:


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: OK Jeff. We know where you stand on using a prong as a correction tool.....how do you feel about using it as a drive building tool? Be brutally honest and don't hold back now.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Are you retarded or just don't read well or plain stupid. Where did I say in my post that flanking should be used as a obedience correction Answer please? If the answer is any thing other than nowhere you are a retard. 
I was simply (guess not simple enough for you) giving a analogy how many working Shepherds react to pain maybe one of the reasons why you see them in police don't ya think.
Though my dog always has a pinch on when training I seldom use it I am starting to see times when a ecollar is going to be necessary so he has been wearing it around the house and at training.
In protection pain can be a very effective tool to escalate aggression fight. Another analogy Jeff let see if ya can grasp this one. ](*,)Though it'snot directed at you.
When your at home playing with your dog start to grab and give a little pinch or a tug on the hair and make some rough house play take note of the dogs reaction when rough housing is escalated.
If not abused and used correctly during training pain can exhibit some of the caricature of the dog which is what I like to show when I'm on the Schutzhund field is my dog. Not how great a trainer or not so great of trainer I am.


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Mike Scheiber said:


> Are you retarded or just don't read well or plain stupid. Where did I say in my post that flanking should be used as a obedience correction Answer please? If the answer is any thing other than nowhere you are a retard.
> I was simply (guess not simple enough for you) giving a analogy how many working Shepherds react to pain maybe one of the reasons why you see them in police don't ya think.
> Though my dog always has a pinch on when training I seldom use it I am starting to see times when a ecollar is going to be necessary so he has been wearing it around the house and at training.
> In protection pain can be a very effective tool to escalate aggression fight. Another analogy Jeff let see if ya can grasp this one. ](*,)Though it'snot directed at you.
> ...


Hey Todd this is what I mean, this is how everyone talks to Jeff... its fun!


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

> I hear you, I got thick skin and I love this place! After hanging out and reading things for a few months that just seams to be the way everyone answers Jeff. Common we all know he loves it! I could just picture him in front of his computer.. empty vodka bottles he swiped from his work all around… sitting in his tightly whites with no shirt on …. Two monitors one with dog chat rooms the other porn.. we all could see it


That's just about my mental image of the guy too. :lol: I love Jeff. He keeps it fresh, calls people out, sticks his foot in his mouth and goes back to good training.


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Anne Vaini said:


> That's just about my mental image of the guy too. :lol: I love Jeff. He keeps it fresh, calls people out, sticks his foot in his mouth and goes back to good training.


I think Iv been watching that TV profiling show to much, but ya that’s him. I’m still trying to figure out if he lives alone in an apartment over the bar or with his mom.
Hey Jeff, its all good, but I know you can see where were coming from.. and the best thing is your proud of it, and yes I have learned things from many here including Jeff


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

What do your club members do when you are not doing "spirited" work ??? Do they grab your ball sack and tug down real hard ? ? ? ?[/QUOTE]

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: 

That's too funny.


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

> pain can exhibit some of the caricature of the dog


Kinda like this then????


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: Are you retarded 

Obviously, if you cannot see where you wrote that flanking was going to help "spirited" OB, I must be the retard. LOL


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Every five month old puppy should be pronged. It will bold up the timid ones and bring down the "tough" ones. And at this age, it will make them want to learn...=D> 

Now if you really think I subscribe to that thought, think again! Most puppies need nothing more than a good fitting flat collar and lots of verbal praise. Puppies happy in the bite work will carry their tail high and trot off the training field. I've heard some real wild stories the last few days about "master trainers" and their training ways. If they can't give the puppy a 13" prong neck, they will fry it with the e-collar...saves time and teaches respect! 

And every "master trainer" who does that should have a collar put on them to see if the mindset works on people first. :mrgreen:


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: Are you retarded
> 
> Obviously, if you cannot see where you wrote that flanking was going to help "spirited" OB, I must be the retard. LOL





Mike Scheiber said:


> For "DEMONSTRATION" purposes if obedience is looking a little flat or drab a quick tug on the flank will spark some spirited obedience be careful I surely wouldn't make a habit of this be prepared for some serious spirited play when you pay your dog.


](*,)


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Howard Gaines III said:


> Every five month old puppy should be pronged. It will bold up the timid ones and bring down the "tough" ones. And at this age, it will make them want to learn...=D>
> 
> Now if you really think I subscribe to that thought, think again! Most puppies need nothing more than a good fitting flat collar and lots of verbal praise. Puppies happy in the bite work will carry their tail high and trot off the training field. I've heard some real wild stories the last few days about "master trainers" and their training ways. If they can't give the puppy a 13" prong neck, they will fry it with the e-collar...saves time and teaches respect!
> 
> And every "master trainer" who does that should have a collar put on them to see if the mindset works on people first. :mrgreen:


Master trainer I have never heard this term till on this board. What are they is there a university or community college what accomplishments or tests must you do to receive such a honor/title do you get a nice certificate or just a laminated card to keep in your wallet. 
Jeff can ya help me out here you must have attended a pretty good school/university any info or details?


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## Lisa Maze (Mar 30, 2007)

Mike Scheiber said:


> Master trainer I have never heard this term till on this board. What are they is there a university or community college what accomplishments or tests must you do to receive such a honor/title do you get a nice certificate or just a laminated card to keep in your wallet.
> Jeff can ya help me out here you must have attended a pretty good school/university any info or details?


Military Working Dog trainers earn "patches" and the title "master trainer". I have not yet figured out the parameters but it involves time and dogs trained. The patches are really cool looking and fit in the diamond shaped area on the back of the Carhart overalls they wear while training (on Lackland AFB). 

In a short search of the internet it seems to be a title used by several Police Canine Associations as well.

Lisa


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Lisa Maze said:


> Military Working Dog trainers earn "patches" and the title "master trainer". I have not yet figured out the parameters but it involves time and dogs trained. The patches are really cool looking and fit in the diamond shaped area on the back of the Carhart overalls they wear while training (on Lackland AFB).
> 
> In a short search of the internet it seems to be a title used by several Police Canine Associations as well.
> 
> Lisa


After doing a google search I'm thinking I don't want to be a master dog trainer looks like most of them are chasing weenier dogs through backyards. A nice patch would be cool.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

There is a school for master trainers in this area. Young pups are started out with pinch collars AND e-collars. We have a couple of their graduates at our club now, learning to do it all over. 
The title has nothing to do with a persons ability!!! Some will come by it naturally. Some will learn because "that's how I was told" and some will never get it, no matter what their training or title. 
I had to retire a nationally ranked AKC obedience dog "back in the day" because of my heavy handed bs. and the traditional "choke" collar. That's one of the reasons I now use motivational training only!
It works and when my patience wears thin I don't have to take it out on the dog. 
Pinch collars, e-collars all are great tools, just as a lathe is a good woodworking tool. To many people should never touch either tool because of the inability to learn how to use them correctly. JMHO! :wink:


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

QUOTE from Bob "Pinch collars and e-collars are all great tools...." UNQUOTE

They are, I agree but they are only aids in the end. IMO, however you use them, to stimulate or to correct, in the end the dog has to get through a 10 minute obedience SchH trial, showing full attention and spirit, without aids. 

IMO, to get the dog concentrated AND spirited needs something else as well, i.e. that special rapport between dog and handler that is demonstrated when the dog and handler are as ONE.

In SchH I think it's the most difficult of all three disciplines. The dog can bring good tracking and protection drives but the handler has to know how to get the dog into the right drive for the whole of the obedience exercise.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Yes Bob when long hair on guys was in fashion, see the History Channel, we had a Tech school guy get a silver dollar patch of hair yanked out on the lathe. Custer's last stand revisted!!!! #-o


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: Jeff can ya help me out here you must have attended a pretty good school/university any info or details?

"Master" trainer has always been a personal joke of mine. I cannot imagine getting to a stage where I think I am a "master" trainer. I have been shown by various dogs over the years that they will not stand for such foolishness. LOL

I did attend some pretty good schools, although they had nothing to do with dog training.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Gillian said
"IMO, to get the dog concentrated AND spirited needs something else as well, i.e. that special rapport between dog and handler that is demonstrated when the dog and handler are as ONE."

I will stir up some $#!+ here and go so far as to say the totally positive training requires more of a bond, team work, even leadership then traditional training. Most all here can physically controll a dog with a collar and leash. At different levels of course, but, not all can control the dog by creating a willing desire to perform for us.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> Gillian said
> "IMO, to get the dog concentrated AND spirited needs something else as well, i.e. that special rapport between dog and handler that is demonstrated when the dog and handler are as ONE."
> 
> I will stir up some $#!+ here and go so far as to say the totally positive training requires more of a bond, team work, even leadership then traditional training. Most all here can physically controll a dog with a collar and leash. At different levels of course, but, not all can control the dog by creating a willing desire to perform for us.


I am interested in seeing some of your training Bob and when I say training not something shiny and perfect.
Training like problem solving manipulating behaviors you mention 100 % positive training in almost every post lets have a look see.
I have seen some video of Jason & Jacob aka Duke Jetts brother at a AKC thing and also there BH they looked great. Got some video!


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I know I'm on a few videos/DVD that have been made by club members but I don't think there are to many things that actually show procedure. 
If I do find anything good I'll have to have someone else put to the computer. 
I'm very proud of the accomplishments I've made with Thunder, without corrections. CD, CDX, ScHII, TT, CGC and his earlier SAR training. Live find, cadaver, boat work, article search.
In November we'll be going for the III. Next year we'll be going after the UD and possibly AKC tracking. Also I'll be starting herding after the III. 
Jason dropped off the map and we haven't seen him in some time. What a shame! He was doing a fantastic job using our training methods. 
If your Jet is anything close to Duke in performance, you've got one helluva dog. 
I would think that to be true for no other reason then all the dogs I've seen produced by Trish are super!
I'll try and get some video posted.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Motivation is a big part in my training but I can't subscribe to motivation only.

The dog I've picked up on training again is also one that "lives to work" but stubborn in obedience - it's harder to regulate how much I uncork the bottle with him. I probably should have done more and regular obedience when he was little but I thought with his intensity it would be like with my last dog who I also had to make clear that we were going to do it my way but who learned it.

I also think that at the biggest SchH trials, BSP, WUSV, FCI, the quality of the first 10-15 dogs (maybe) is similar and each handler is out to win, obviously. Maybe we could liken it to the Tour de France where without dope you can be sure of a place under the first 10 but not be No. 1 on the podest.

Ok, there are 2 components in dog training but if motivation alone doesn't bring perfection, be content with a lower rank??


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Oh yuck, Bob Scott on video...Brittney maybe, Scott never! [-X #-o


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## Chad Byerly (Jun 24, 2008)

This is interesting, and I appreciate Bob's contributions. 

Without using Positive Punishment (collar correction, for example) or Negative Reinforcement (ear pinch method, for example) in a training plan, most folks think that teaching a dog would take forever and that you'd never get as far competitively. That seems true, when talking about an excellent trainer (highly skilled at manipulating aversives, with good timing and less fallout in the relationship and performance). But trainers often struggle with building their suppressed dog back, and patching a stressed relationship with weakened Positive Reinforcement tools (if the dog is feeling relief and a break from escaping discomfort, when playing with the handler or biting the equipment, instead of joy/accomplishment). I also think that an excellent trainer who had great timing for punishment, could be training without aversives. That skill and knowledge could keep a dog challenged and set up for success, acheiving the trainer's goals.

I'm still new to (dog/working dog/positive) training, and enjoy learning new positive dog training methods and ideas, often from trainers who aren't (only) positive.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Gillian Schuler said:


> ... The dog I've picked up on training again is also one that "lives to work" but stubborn in obedience -


Stubborn how?

Examples?


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Stubborn is another of the human feelings equated to dogs. 
A "stubborn" dog is one that, for whatever reason, doesn't understand what's asked of it. 
Why would a dog act "stubborn" with any method of training. With correction training it means it will get corrected. With positive training it means it will loose the reward. 
Neither is reason to be stubborn. Unsure, confused, yes!
With conventional training, at trail time we have to convince the dog that it still has the pinch, e-collar, leash still on. It has to believe that you have full power over it.
In motivational training you STILL have to convince the dog that something great will happen. That may be a toy or food in obedience or a bite in bite work. 
My 16 month GSD doesn't have off the wall food or toy drive during obedience. That's for me to figure out what trips his trigger. You can say that with any dog using any method. His obedience for bite work is looking better every day. 
Could I speed things up a bit with mild correction? Because of years of training that way, I'd bet on it, but that's not my choice any more. 
I do this because I want to. It's nothing to do with traditional training being wrong or purely positive being right. BOTH work when done correctly!! At 63 yrs old and 50 yrs of dogs behind me, this is my choice! 
"Being content with a lower rank" is just a matter of time. Maybe not for me (I'm old :lol: ) but it will happen.  
BTW, we haven't been anywhere near lower rank in straight obedience (AKC) competition. We've cleaned up in our classes at every trial we've entered. Same for all the folks at club here. that have done AKC. 
After we get our III, then we will start hitting the trials with Schutzhund. Hpefully beyond club level. [-o<  
.............lets not talk about FST :x :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I will add this also.
The top level handlers don't go into the ring with just any dog. They select the dog that best works for them and their methods. That's no different with positive training.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Jeez Bob, did you have to get in there before I'd explained "stubborn":smile: :smile: :smile: 

I put "stubborn" in inverted commas because I couldn't think of a good word to describe my dog. He has been described as stubborn by a few, he can be a pain in the neck in private with his territorial instincts and his possessiveness.

I can now get him to the tracking ground in a well-mannered fashion and he now tracks as I would wish.

I can get him from the car to the protection field in a more or less mannered fashion. The actual protection work is not a problem. He waits for the command to go to the helper, he outs, he waits. This was not the problem. In the snow once, I slipped and let go of the lead and he raced for the helper:-x 

The helper was working another dog but turned to mine and let him have the sleeve to avoid conflict with the other dog but he wasn't interested in the other dog. I grabbed hold of the line and he started to get up on his hind legs and go for the helper again but I pushed him to the ground and held him by the scruff of his neck. One girl next to me said *be careful" but I said the dog would have to be careful. She said you're lucky he's so "fair". This dog would never go against me and as for shoving him around, I have one IQ more than he does, however small I am.

Sorry for the long tirade, but just to give you a picture of the chap.

I agree, "stubborn" is a daft word in the obedience section but it's difficult to describe him in heeling. If I'm not careful and let too much fizz out of the bottle he's jumping all 4 into the air. He defaults to "bottoms out" invariably when I halt but his heeling is not bad "ears up" eyes rived on me.

I have a girlfriend who is helping me and insisting that I place footballs, kongs, etc. on the ground and make sure he still focuses on me when heeling. He's still squinting at the footballs but it's improving. He works well on commands "nein" and "jawohl".

I have Helmut Raiser and Bart Bellon's video "contact" and want to watch it with my husband. 

I don't honestly think prong or e-collar are necessarily a "quicker" solution but maybe a "neater" one.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> I will add this also.
> The top level handlers don't go into the ring with just any dog. They select the dog that best works for them and their methods. That's no different with positive training.


I'm with you there. I've noticed a trend over the years to less drivey, less aggressive dogs but am not so well acquainted with the scene to say they all do it.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Gillian said
"I have a girlfriend who is helping me and insisting that I place footballs, kongs, etc. on the ground and make sure he still focuses on me when heeling. He's still squinting at the footballs but it's improving."

Good idea as long as what's on the ground doesn't have enough value/distraction to overide the correction (if used) or if they are more value'distraction then the reward they recieve (if used). 
Onec the dog is trained/imprinted/responsive enough the distractions can be raised. 
When our advanced dogs work on foosing, in particular during the group heeling, the "posts" in the group can tease with toys, tugs, touch tails, jump up and down, do pretty much whatever they want. I've flopped myself on the ground and had fits in front of a couple of dogs. If the dog breaks they are shown what they just lost with a neutral "Nope"! In my dog's case, the tug or the kong are to die for. 
Restart the foosing again and that particular distraction rarely works again.
Most of the advanced dogs actually focus on the handler all the more under distraction because they've learned folks are trying to trick them out of their reward.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

_Good idea as long as what's on the ground doesn't have enough value/distraction to overide the correction (if used) or if they are more value'distraction then the reward they recieve (if used)_

Good point Bob. It's something that I should know but tend to forget in practice.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> ... Restart the foosing again and that particular distraction rarely works again.


The dog will even start to generalize and a new distraction won't work either.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Connie Sutherland said:


> The dog will even start to generalize and a new distraction won't work either.


Absolutely! Once they understand the game, it's amazing to see a dog almost super focus on the handler when we start creating distractions.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I sometimes look back at my posts to see what BS I've written. Here's one:-x 

Having gone into retrospect mode, I realise that I didn't teach my dog the "positioning" in heeling, i.e. touching my left thigh, and straightened up, before I carried on to "look at me" modus.

There's no fool like an old fool and I'm trying to rectify it. Forget what I said about him - it's not relevant - what's relevant is that I still have 1 IQ more than him - thank God!


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