# Putting a young puppy on raw



## Amber Scott Dyer (Oct 30, 2006)

OK, so I have a mix breed puppy (Dane mother, AB and lab mix dad) that was one of ten left at our clinic after the mom developed pyometra. I have been bottlefeeding him since he was about two weeks old. He is now seven weeks and about 13 lbs. I'm not sure yet if we are going to keep him or adopt him out. Right now, he is eating wellness puppy food. If we decide to keep him, I want to switch him over to raw. So how do I convert him? I just kind of switched my adults cold turkey and started them with only chicken backs at first. Everything I found says that puppies under 12 weeks need to be fed ground food. I'm not going to get a grinder to use for only a few weeks. Do i need to buy the prepackaged raw diet (Bravo is the one most readily available to me), should I wait for a little longer, or should I go ahead and try to offer him some chicken necks and see how he does?


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Amber Scott said:


> OK, so I have a mix breed puppy (Dane mother, AB and lab mix dad) that was one of ten left at our clinic after the mom developed pyometra. I have been bottlefeeding him since he was about two weeks old. He is now seven weeks and about 13 lbs. I'm not sure yet if we are going to keep him or adopt him out. Right now, he is eating wellness puppy food. If we decide to keep him, I want to switch him over to raw. So how do I convert him? I just kind of switched my adults cold turkey and started them with only chicken backs at first. Everything I found says that puppies under 12 weeks need to be fed ground food. I'm not going to get a grinder to use for only a few weeks. Do i need to buy the prepackaged raw diet (Bravo is the one most readily available to me), should I wait for a little longer, or should I go ahead and try to offer him some chicken necks and see how he does?


Are you experienced with devising a raw diet for a growing puppy? 

It's nowhere near as forgiving as feeding raw to an adult. There's more than one vital reason, including: puppies are laying down bone and forming teeth (and much more), and they also don't have the adult dog's much greater ability to regulate calcium and phosphorus uptake.

This is coming from an extremely enthusiastic raw feeder.


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## Anne Jones (Mar 27, 2006)

I would use Bravo for the 1st 6 months or so to be sure that you are getting the balance correct for a puppy. 

Unless you are VERY VERY experienced at feeding raw I would not suggest a do it yourself diet for a young pup. 

I have fed both Bravo to pups & also homemade raw diets. But I had been feeding raw for a number of years already. I have been feeding raw now for 9 years. 

I would start with Bravo & then maybe down the road at 6 months add some The Honest Kitchen when moving over to a home made diet at the older age. This will insure at least a good base diet that is well balalnced. Then later on move onto a whole homemade diet.

I would also move slowly from one food source to another with a puppy. I would also feed the kibble(at a seperate meal) while starting the Bravo. Give the pup a couple of weeks to give the dog's stomache time to develope the enzimes needed to digest a whole raw diet. You can also add enzimes to the diet to help. There are a number of brands out there. Although I have not done this. But all my pups were weaned onto raw from their raw fed dams.

If your pup is used to mooshey food & you think he may accept the honest kitchen texture(some dog's don't) I woud start with that. It is an easier transition to raw & is a whole balanced food all on it's own. Get one of the varieties that are for all growth stages in life..I think that there are a couple of them. Then over some time add some RMBs to THK. It is designed to be able to do that. 

Just some thoughts. I would be careful though, since this pup has had a ruff start already.

I have raised 3 pups on raw with no issues. Just don't rush things. Take it slow with a pup.

I have breeder friends that use Bravo for their pups to insure a well balanced diet.

I will add that if you are not sure that you are going to keep the pup or will have him go to someone that is not a raw feeder....I would keep the pup on kibble. Switching him back & forth at a young age will be a bit hard on the puppy. JMO

Hope some of this helps. Good luck with the pup.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

I raised a young puppy on a raw diet and am thinking of moving my older puppy over but want him to be considerably oder when I go back to raw.

Reason - the puppy I did raise on raw exactly as the breeder told me developed severe HD and I really think from the x-rays it was more from bone overgrowth than from structural issues. Most on that litter were dysplastic and we were given the diet to feed.

I think it was unbalanced for calcium and phosphorus and I will never do that again. The ZW for the breeding, BTW was 78. I know "stuff happens" but knowing what I now know!


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## Anne Jones (Mar 27, 2006)

I don't know anything about you breeder or 'their diet' but I will say that I have some people that have come to me with questions about raw feeding & then telling me the particular brands of raw (really weird with very little variety or ingreedents etc.,.but not going into names) or the so called diet that the breeders told them to follow. Two dogs had HD (GSD & golden)(the other was almost malnurished (boeborel).

So no offence, but forgive me if I am not all that comfortable with many breeders raw diets. 

I have breeder friends that have raise their pups (mal & GSDs ) for years on raw diets with no problems. Several use Bravo only & several use homemade & Bravo.

I know that dogs with health issues can be said with kibbles & certain lines & litters & over exercise at young ages. So I think that there can be more then one contributing factor.

But I have had great success with my w/l GSDs raised on raw. My dogs are not couch potatoes by any means.

But you have to go with what you are comfortable with.


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## Laura Briggs (Jan 11, 2011)

I'm currently raising a w/l GSD puppy on a raw diet ...he was also bred by a raw feeder. I've read and read about canine nutrition (I have access to an excellent research collection.) and interviewed many raw feeding GSD breeders. At the end of the day, I won't know if I've done a good job until Bosco is old enough to be OFA'd. ...and based on my interpretation of the journal literature, HD could be multifactorial ...and I can point out questions that I have with the interpretation of the statistical tests used in the existing HD studies. There is risk with anything you feed. I converted to raw feeding after my female GSD nearly died after eating a contaminated bag of high quality kibble. So, I agree with the poster that said to feed what you feel comfortable doing.


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## Amber Scott Dyer (Oct 30, 2006)

I wouldn't switch him until I was sure I was going to keep him. We are leaning that way, though. It's just so much testosterone (even after he's neutered) for me to have in one house  Three male dogs - ahhh. 

I am definitely not experienced with a raw diet. I just switched a few months ago. I'm reading and learning, but just like anything else, you get a lot of conflicting information. It made such a quick and drastic improvement in my dogs that I know I will eventually go that way with any future dogs. But I know there is a lot involved in balancing puppy diets with kibble, so I'm sure it's that way with raw, too. Also, being a dane mix, his bone growth is def a concern. I have a really good local source for the Bravo that will deliver it to me every week for free  I've just heard that the prepackaged raw diets aren't as good, simply because they lose some of the benefits of the RMBs. I like the Wellness puppy food, and he is doing well on it so far. 

What are the disadvantages of feeding raw (the Bravo, for example) and the wellness kibble together? I keep reading that it isn't recommended to feed raw and kibble together, but I haven't seen anywhere why exactly that is. Other than all the 'bad stuff' about kibble, of course  It would be nice to keep him on Wellness, but still introduce him to the texture and tastes of the raw food so transition will be easier.


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

Consider doing a 50/50 with RAW and THK. One meal RAW, one meal THK. This way you can be more assured the dog is getting the proper amounts of nutrition.


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## Anne Jones (Mar 27, 2006)

If you feed 2 meals a day(although I feed pups 3x a day until 6 months) then you can feed kibble at one & raw at the other..but I would make sure they are 12 hours apart to allow for the kibble to get most of the way thru the digestive track. 

Kibble takes about 14-16 hours to pass thru & raw is usually about 5-6 hours. The longer digestion time of the kibble, if fed with the raw, is what causes the pathogens to multiply greatly(ferment) & that will cause the problems. Dogs don't have the trouble with raw sitting in the gut long enough for that to happen. 

I know folks that have fed raw & kibble toghether for years with no issues & other that have had deadly results doing it. So weighing the risks in an individual decision.

One of the many benefits of feeding pups a raw diet is that it "grows them slow'. They have less of the growth spurts that kibble fed pups have & when they do they are less dranmatic.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Edward Egan said:


> Consider doing a 50/50 with RAW and THK. One meal RAW, one meal THK. This way you can be more assured the dog is getting the proper amounts of nutrition.


Or even better: one of the THK recipes for puppies with RMBs added per the package directions.... imho, a terrific bridge to raw.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Anne Jones said:


> I don't know anything about you breeder or 'their diet' but I will say that I have some people that have come to me with questions about raw feeding & then telling me the particular brands of raw (really weird with very little variety or ingreedents etc.,.but not going into names) or the so called diet that the breeders told them to follow.





Nancy Jocoy said:


> ... the puppy I did raise on raw exactly as the breeder told me .... I think it was unbalanced for calcium and phosphorus ...


We had a poster here several years ago giving what he said was the raw diet the breeder told him to give.

DISCLAIMER: We had only one side of the story. This poster could have misunderstood, could have "streamlined," could have just screwed up the instructions in any of several ways.

But he was giving this puppy a diet based on (and almost entirely consisting of) boneless ground beef with no calcium source ... and the owner's first inkling of this nutritional disaster was when this puppy fractured bones in normal play. This puppy had suffered severe and irreparable damage.

I know no one on this thread has any intention of doing anything this insane. I bring it up only to illustrate what a break in the line of communication there can be between breeder and owner, AND to say that even if he had accidentally left out bones that were supposed to be included, there is no way in the world that this was even close to an appropriate diet.

Of course this is not a jumping-on-breeders free-for-all, and I'll betcha that many, even most, raw-feeding breeders know a lot more than the general dog-owning population about feeding raw to growing puppies. All I'm saying is that I would not blindly count on it ... not without some research of my own.

JMO!


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

A friend of mine is raising her puppy on raw based on a list recommendation--chicken breasts and chicken thighs. When I asked about the calcium phosphorus ration, she shrugged and said "people" say theirs have done just fine. Once I looked up the USDA site which has each chicken part's nutritional analysis, those two pieces are very imbalanced. 

Terrasita


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> A friend of mine is raising her puppy on raw based on a list recommendation--chicken breasts and chicken thighs. When I asked about the calcium phosphorus ration, she shrugged and said "people" say theirs have done just fine. Once I looked up the USDA site which has each chicken part's nutritional analysis, those two pieces are very imbalanced.
> 
> Terrasita


Wow. :x



PS

I didn't know there was a USDA analysis site that included bones. 

Can I have a link?


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## Anne Jones (Mar 27, 2006)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Wow. :x
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Me too. I'd like to see that also.


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## kenneth roth (Jul 29, 2010)

Amber Scott said:


> OK, so I have a mix breed puppy (Dane mother, AB and lab mix dad) that was one of ten left at our clinic after the mom developed pyometra. I have been bottlefeeding him since he was about two weeks old. He is now seven weeks and about 13 lbs. I'm not sure yet if we are going to keep him or adopt him out. Right now, he is eating wellness puppy food. If we decide to keep him, I want to switch him over to raw. So how do I convert him? I just kind of switched my adults cold turkey and started them with only chicken backs at first. Everything I found says that puppies under 12 weeks need to be fed ground food. I'm not going to get a grinder to use for only a few weeks. Do i need to buy the prepackaged raw diet (Bravo is the one most readily available to me), should I wait for a little longer, or should I go ahead and try to offer him some chicken necks and see how he does?


 how about this http://leerburg.com/embark.htm ? it is The honest kitchen dehydrated raw food


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

kenneth roth said:


> *how about this* http://leerburg.com/embark.htm *? it is The honest kitchen dehydrated raw food*



Kenneth, when "THK" is mentioned, we mean The Honest Kitchen.  I'm with you that Embark would be a very good choice for puppies among the THK formulas.



Anne Jones said:


> ... If your pup is used to mooshey food & you think he may accept the honest kitchen texture(some dog's don't) I woud start with that. It is an easier transition to raw & is a whole balanced food all on it's own. Get one of the varieties that are for all growth stages in life..I think that there are a couple of them. Then over some time add some RMBs to *THK*. It is designed to be able to do that.





Edward Egan said:


> Consider doing a 50/50 with RAW and *THK*. One meal RAW, one meal *THK*. This way you can be more assured the dog is getting the proper amounts of nutrition.





Connie Sutherland said:


> Or even better: one of the *THK *recipes for puppies with RMBs added per the package directions.... imho, a terrific bridge to raw.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Wow. :x
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I was on a google chase one night. I've seen with bone and without. When I went back and looked again, I could only find the bones removed. So far from other sites, the only two parts that are balanced are turkey necks and chicken backs. When I find it again, I'll forward.

Terrasita


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## Amber Scott Dyer (Oct 30, 2006)

I'm going to wait until he is older, I think, and just keep reading. 

I have had a hard time getting my dutchie to eat fish. He's eaten everything else I've given him with no problem, but he balks at fish. The first time I tried, it was with some rainbow trout (we cut off the filets and tried to give him the head and entrails), and he wouldn't touch it. He sniffed at it and laid down beside the bowl and just stared at me. i tried again with just filets, just trying to get him used to the taste and smell - he wouldn't eat those, either. I even tried to put a fish filet in the bowl with some other meats that he was familiar with, and he ate around it. I've put grizzly salmon oil on his food since he was a puppy, so I would think he was used to the taste or smell at least a little. We eat a fair amount of fish, and it would be nice if I could get him to eat it. He has only been on raw for a little less than six months, I think. He has eaten chicken, turkey, game duck, venison, lamb, and beef so far - various different parts and organs - and has never refused anything else.


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## Tracy Wessel (Apr 23, 2012)

I've been feeding raw for more than 20 years. I've changed how and what I feed over that time based on the dogs I've had, and as I learn new information. Truly speaking, I've simplified how and what I feed. For instance, when I first started to feed raw, Dr. Pitcairn's book was in its first edition. I followed the recipes and vitamin formulas in his book. Both worked famously for my dogs at the time, especially my Vizsla that was otherwise extremely particular about kibble, next to inappetant, and eating dirt and rocks. When I began to make his food, all that ended. The Pitcairn recipes were measured and specific as to vitamin mixture additions. There was a liquid vitamin amount, in oil with vitamin e, and there was the powdered amount, with bone meal, kelp, yeast, and other ingredients. I've long ago forgotten what all was in those meals.

Later I began to feed whole parts, organs, etc, and to study the diets of the wild canids more closely. I was surprised by the amount of vegetation and fruits and nuts they actually would consume on their own. Especially interesting if you live near an orchard and can witness. 

In any case, of my two adult working dogs, one was started as raw with his breeder, the other was started with kibble by her breeder. The latter pup never had kibble in my home; her first meal at my home was a chicken wing. My own litter born last Summer I started raw. They never had a day of kibble. 

There is so much research out there, and so many opinions, about the proper prey model of food. It's almost volatile to comment without risk of arguments starting. 

I will just say that you can do it. Canids did not evolve this far by obtaining kibble from the store. If you choose to be scientific, and measure completely your calcium and phosphorous ratio, then you could start with this calculator: home.comcast.net/~conuremom/canine_diet_calculator.xls

The calculator was made to assist those raw (or cooked) feeding dogs with renal disease. It is designed to help you determine how much calcium to add. It is a very useful tool for measuring what you are really feeding your dog. The calculator has been updated nicely since the time when I had to use it on a rescue I had with renal disease.

For me, rather than have someone (vet, peer groups, dog food manufacturers, etc) tell me I'm not intelligent enough, or studied enough to properly feed my dogs, I just do the research and feed my dogs. If it is your choice to do this, there's plenty of information out there via books, studies of natural prey models, and the trials and errors of others that are willing to share.

For travel food, I often pop into the grocery store for my dogs meals. I do carry Honest Kitchen in my truck and backpack for SAR. They make convenient single feeding packs, and the product keeps nicely. There are also other dehydrated raw foods available. 

I think the most important thing to consider with raw feeding a puppy, is the question of protein and calcium. Somewhere along the way, people have decided that puppies need more than adults, on both counts...but consider the natural prey model, the addition of extra rarely makes sense.

One think I can say... I'm certain my dogs eat much better than I do.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

I agree (of course) that you can do it. We all can. 

I think that the big point most of us are striving to make is that a growing puppy's diet is not nearly as forgiving of trial-and-error as an adult dog's.

Like others on this thread, I have fed raw for decades, too, and, as mentioned, have read and seen some random and disastrous diets given to growing puppies based on what I think of as the "if it's raw, it's automatically better" mentality. 

Obviously, you don't subscribe to that school of thought, and I commend you. I especially appreciate your comments on learning that canids on their own, even in times of abundant prey, choose to eat considerably more produce than many raw-feeding "experts" suggest. This has been and continues to be a frustrating point to convey to people who have fallen under a certain "prey model" spell and equate "prey model" with nothing but clean poultry parts wrapped in supermarket plastic.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Tracy Wessel said:


> I was surprised by the amount of vegetation and fruits *and nuts *they actually would consume on their own.



I'm sure you and many others already know this, but just to be sure, _Note to Readers:_

True nuts aren't universally safe for dogs. Macadamia nuts top the "do not give" list, but there are some other tree-nut warnings you'll find on the lists of foods that can be toxic to dogs.


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## Carmen van de Kamp (Apr 2, 2006)

All of our own bred dogs are fully raised on a combination of commercial raw & full prey animals. 

Pups bought from other breeders are also from the moment they are here raised that way. 
I prefer the "commercial" raw as it is complete, but only the kind with bones as calcium, not with a preparation.


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

Carmen van de Kamp said:


> All of our own bred dogs are fully raised on a combination of commercial raw & full prey animals.
> 
> Pups bought from other breeders are also from the moment they are here raised that way.
> I prefer the "commercial" raw as it is complete, but only the kind with bones as calcium, not with a preparation.


 
Where can you find that "commercial" raw in Europe? 

Could you give me a link to a distributor? 


Thank you very much


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## Carmen van de Kamp (Apr 2, 2006)

Tiago Fontes said:


> Where can you find that "commercial" raw in Europe?
> 
> Could you give me a link to a distributor?
> 
> ...


Foods like Duck, Energique, Carnibest, but I don't know how it is available outside of the Netherlands.


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## Willi Ortner (Apr 3, 2012)

Another great raw food: K9 Kraving (http://www.k-9kraving.com/)

We ween our puppies on this straight, and never have a problem. Your best bet when feeding raw it just that, for it to be raw ingredients. There are a couple good "commercial" raw foods, such as the above. We supplement with kibble now and then if we need some weight gain as it is a very lean food.


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## kenneth roth (Jul 29, 2010)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Kenneth, when "THK" is mentioned, we mean The Honest Kitchen.  I'm with you that Embark would be a very good choice for puppies among the THK formulas.


:-s \\/


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Just a quick THANKS!!!! to Tracy for for the calculator. It was pretty cool to plug in my current recipe and see how it fared in the spreadsheet calculator. Although I must say I keep seeing different cal/phos ratios for turkey necks. 


Terrasita


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

Carmen van de Kamp said:


> Foods like Duck, Energique, Carnibest, but I don't know how it is available outside of the Netherlands.


 
Thanks. I'll look it up.


Regards


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## Louise Jollyman (Jun 2, 2009)

We use Nature's Variety as well with our pups. They have a handful or two of kibble in the mornings on their scent pads, then raw at night, which is usually chicken necks + either fish, ground meat or nature's variety + veggie mix + salmon oil + Puppy Gold supplement from k9power.com.


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