# What IS a good Personal Protection dog?



## Dave Colborn

The thread started by Jack Lee was a good one, but I think we were getting away from what are the differences between Police, PPD and sport dogs which led me to this question. 

_What IS a good personal protection dog_? It means something different to everyone, but I'd like to hear what everyone's idea of a good PP dog might be.

In my world, my little house dog, Eddie, that barks, has great house manners and can be around most people and dogs is enough for me right now.

For me, a dog iis a part of my system to stay safe, part of my mindset (stay in the fight). Like a motion detection alarm when I am asleep, or the gun beside my bed, under my seat, in the closet, under the table, etc.. just part of the system, not the be all end all ass kicking "man stopper". She doesn't inspire fear if you look in my car and see her, but I do remember to lock up more when I run in somewhere because she's cute, and I don't want someone to steal her. Her cuteness also makes people look at her. Makes it less likely to have someone steal from my truck if three people are watching my dog. 

Walking her, she wont deter a thing.

Here are some of her good characteristics:

She barks and wakes up the gun.
Rides in the truck well
Not likely to have a law suit with me named because of her
No chance of her backing me up in a fight, so I don't even think about it
I have an odd desire to protect her since she is soft, no family for me to protect, she's it.
she gets along well with dogs and people
she is easy to talk to
minimal flatulence
good eater
sheds pretty good, and I think this deters some people from wanting to ride with me.


That being said, I am trying to turn my boxer into a sport dog with a follow on mission of having more of a role in PP. He has most of the characteristics listed above, and there is a good chance I can get him to bite reasonably well on a man with no equipment (he absolutely wouldn't bite a tug in someone elses hands, and his first bite in a session that he bit was on a man with a sleeve, full, hard and convincing).

If he starts biting well, I will treat him as I have most other dogs that bite and assume that he'll bite almost anyone, and not keep him around people as much (I know it's flawed thinking as far as keeping the dog socialized, but if they can't reach him, he can't bite them. It is easier to tell everyone "my dog bites, stay back" than to wait for the accident, for me..

However, then I increase my chances of liability and have a dog that is not as suitable around other dogs and people, and the flatulence going down the road/in bed at night is enough to make my eyes water and breathing change. I could absolutely leave him in a fight and break contact to get myself safely away. With Ed, if she got in the mix, I couldn't do it.

So. What is a Personal Protection dog to YOU?


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## andreas broqvist




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## Chris Michalek

I don't believe in Personal Protection dogs. I have six dogs in my house that range in age from one to twelve years old. Two of them are bite trained and my rottweiler has had lots of hidden sleeve and other civil work.

A few months ago, somebody slipped into my house and stole my wife's purse while we were home and all of the dogs were loose in the house. Perhaps things would have been different if it were the middle of the night but with all the activity going on in the house nobody noticed the intruder.

The best thing would have been a locked door.


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## Howard Gaines III

Chris I forget, aren't your dogs also more social? If the dogs "thought" the person was allowed to be there, why bite? Can't remember...

I HAVE to put mine away and there have been some close calls. Some might say, "Well it can't be used if its put away." True and that's where Glock and S & W come in. You never know...

What makes a good dog or a great dog can also be just the show of force. The dog buys you time, time is the difference in dialing 911 or getting to the firepower...It would look real bad on Christmas Day if my dog bite my sister, nothing for me, not even coal!!!!!!!!!!!!!! =;


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## Don Turnipseed

I am with Dave. My ideal PP dog pretty much fits the list of things he likes. I have sold a number of them as PP dogs for kids to people that live in area's with mountaon lions. The one big difference from the list Dave had is mine will back me up by stepping in and taking total control. They have never had to go as far as biting because no one ever pushes them once they step in. They instinctively know when something isn't right.


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## Candy Eggert

andreas broqvist said:


>


Sweet Andreas :grin: Works for me!!


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## Jerry Lyda

Early warning system with ass to back it up if needed. 
Social, a must.
Continuing education, to keep him on his toes, another must.
Must be a GSD, LOL just kiddin on this one. Although it is the GSD for me BUT I do have Doodle Bug, a Boston Terrier that thinks he's really the Big Daddy. He will do all that Dave said. Can't take him and leave him in the car. If anyone gets within 25 Ft. he lets them know he is there and waiting for them to , " Make his day."


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## Thomas Barriano

I agree with most of the ideas.
I don't need a dog to protect me. Just wake me (or the bulldog :-0) up in time to get to the Makarov (my choice in firearms, cheap, reliable and IF you "need" to dump it in the river you don't lose the big bucks dumping a Glock or Sig Sauer).
They may exist, but I've never seen a so called PPD that I couldn't either run off, or go totally passive and not get bit. Anyone foolish enough to "attack" someone with any dog on leash deserves to get bit. Stay outside of the (3 foot or so) leash length and the danger of getting bit is minimal.


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## Jack Lee

Some violence is very beautiful .
why not to have a well-behaved warrior?


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## Don Turnipseed

Works every time


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## David Ruby

Thomas Barriano said:


> I agree with most of the ideas.
> I don't need a dog to protect me. Just wake me (or the bulldog :-0) up in time to get to the Makarov (my choice in firearms, cheap, reliable and IF you "need" to dump it in the river you don't lose the big bucks dumping a Glock or Sig Sauer).


Put some thought into this, have we? 



> They may exist, but I've never seen a so called PPD that I couldn't either run off, or go totally passive and not get bit. Anyone foolish enough to "attack" someone with any dog on leash deserves to get bit. Stay outside of the (3 foot or so) leash length and the danger of getting bit is minimal.


Hey Thomas, I might be the odd-man out, but I actually DO believe in a PPD. I think it's more a manner of getting a dog that can see bitework as being serious, and training it for how encounters actually happen. By that, I mean they've talked to a/o been police officers or security personnel, or studied how crimes go down, and train for those situations, and train/test in ways that are how their clientele actually live and work. Some of it isn't terribly different from training for Schutzhund or Ringsport, at least to my inexperienced eyes, some of it is just training with a different goal in mind or a different tactic.

I think a true PPD is pretty rare, and in talking to the couple people that I know well enough to trust, to train what they describe as a street dog is very intensive and seems based on police/security training. Most probably don't do that kind of stuff, overwhelmingly so if I had to guess. On the other hand, there are some sport dogs that seem pretty serious and would probably do just fine or excel in that training. Then there are cross-trained dogs that have a sport foundation and civil training that function to some extent as both, maybe a high-level at both. But just like cross-training for SchH and Mondio, there are some conflicting goals, rules, or things being judged by whomever. You can generally do well at both, or be a top-flight specialist at one or the other.

I might also be in a very lucky position. The dogs I've seen that acted as PPDs were very highly trained, looked fine in the bitework, and were more imaginative in some of the settings and environmental stuff than some of the sports training I've seen (which again, all depends on the imagination of whomever is doing the training and situations). Not saying I have all the answers or any creds that would make me able to even pretend to be some authority on this. But I do believe there are highly-trained street dogs, just that they are pretty rare and most don't train them as well as they should in part because I think the mentality is that they're trained and hence done. The people that take this stuff seriously seem to always be looking for ways to keep training or ways to keep the dog mentally sharp and exposed to any possible situation you might run into. I don't consider an out-of-control or poorly trained dog or one that can be run off a very good PPD, just like I don't consider a dog that can't "out" or that can be run off or that can't do whatever the sport requires of it a very good sport dog. But there is definitely some crossover between good training and good dogs. At least I think so. But again, I'm not trying to pretend I'm an expert, just sort of chiming in for the people that are reputable and been doing this for a while who I've been lucky enough to see train or work their dogs, so take it with a huge grain of salt.

-Cheers


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## David Ruby

Hey Chris, just for the sake of discussion;



Chris Michalek said:


> I don't believe in Personal Protection dogs. I have six dogs in my house that range in age from one to twelve years old. Two of them are bite trained and my rottweiler has had lots of hidden sleeve and other civil work.
> 
> A few months ago, somebody slipped into my house and stole my wife's purse while we were home and all of the dogs were loose in the house. Perhaps things would have been different if it were the middle of the night but with all the activity going on in the house nobody noticed the intruder.


Two points. First, unless they were trained for stopping an intruder when you weren't around, they might have just froze and not really known what to do. Most bite work I've seen or scenarios I've seen/heard about involve the handler directing the dog, or the dog is given a command and does it (e.g. object guard) when the handler leaves and then comes back ~5-10 minutes later. It's different than training for the dog to automatically stop/bite somebody invading your house without direction who maybe just froze a/o acted cool and didn't do something to cue the dog off. I'm not even sure you'd want that in a PPD as much as a guard dog, although in that case a bark might have been nice. But you could probably address situations like that with training, but how many people actually do?

Second, that's different than a PPD. Your PPD is for personal protection, not necessarily home invasion protection. Meaning that you can have a dog that they are for protecting the handler/family. The fact somebody slipped into your house and left with a purse doesn't mean they couldn't act as a PPD. It could just mean that's a gray area to the dog. If the person had tried to attack you and the dogs still didn't act, that's a bit different, or if it was a KNPV or Mondio or French Ring dog, the dogs were on an object guard, and they didn't stop the guy, that's different. I tend to think of a PPD as one as protecting the handler and working in conjunction with the handler. The other stuff could be trained in, but it's not necessarily what determines its worth as a PPD.



> The best thing would have been a locked door.


True, but that's not quite the same thing, is it? I see your point, but it sounded like the dogs weren't trained or at least weren't sure the boundaries or the decisive decision if somebody came in and (guessing) didn't make something to cue them into action. If that's something you felt was important to you as a PPD, I'm sure it could be trained depending how you wanted the dogs to act.

-Cheers


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## Don Turnipseed

I know this isn't going to go with the flow but, to me the ideal PPD needs no bite training, is great with people as well as infants and everything in between. A dog that that still has the natural sense of knowing when something isn't right and can handle the situation. The total family dog with basic obedience.....everything else is natural to them.


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## Guest

Don Turnipseed said:


> I know this isn't going to go with the flow but, to me the ideal PPD needs no bite training, is great with people as well as infants and everything in between. A dog that that still has the natural sense of knowing when something isn't right and can handle the situation. The total family dog with basic obedience.....everything else is natural to them.


 
I agree, but add Super Obedience!!!


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## Cesar A. Flores Dueñas

I like to Ask 3 Things to start

1.- Who Have a Personal Protection Dog Active right now? (not talking of a Sport dog)

2.- What are the legislation on your country about Shooting someone? (REAL legislations, not the Macho man attitude i think this are the legislations) A dog can be an effective Non- Lethal resource

3.- Wich one of you carries a GUn with him 24/7, not only in your house, at your daily basis

mines:

1.- I have a Personal Protection dog 24/7 with me for security issues

3.- Here on Mexico doesnt matters if is delinquent , you shoot someone to death you will go to Jail, With good luck and a terrific lawyer the time you spent in jail will be reduced some years.

4.- I cant carry a gun 24 hours because is not legal here on mexico, if i get caught with a gun on the streets, or on my bussines i go to jail.

I will pick a GBR-36 Automatic Rifle, but the topic was what is the best PPD dog for you, this is a WOrking dogs forum AND i am talking about a Reallity of what i do on real life.


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## Don Turnipseed

Cesar said
"but the topic was what is the best PPD dog for you"

Actually the topic is "What IS a good personal protection dog".

I gave my opinion....as did others.

Since you asked, I never carry unless I am going out of town or hunting. Here at home....well....there is an Hand K .45 compact sitting about a foot from my hand. Hanging next to the front door is a 7 1/2" .44 mag. At the bottom step going upstairs is a .22mag rifle. Three more rifles, 300 mag, 45/70, and a .22 Hornet leaning against the liquor cabinet. The rest of the rifles are in a gun cabinet 2' to my left, the pistols are 2' to my right on a shelf. All loaded. Never carry a gun for protection even though I have a concealed weapons permit hanging on the wall. If I go out and confront trespassers, I always put one of the dogs in the truck and never roll the winow up incase things go south. They see that dog eyeing them while we are...... talking. That to me is an ideal PPD.


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## Jackie Mulligan

My dog is an alarm system and a deterrent. My gun is my personal protection. I'm not relying on an animal to save me. Doesn't make any sense.


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## Kadi Thingvall

In no particular order I think a good PPD needs the following

trustworthy around people - this doesn't mean the dog has to be social/outgoing, but it must be capable of going anywhere the owner goes without biting some innocent bystander. This includes places were people might be realistically expected to be acting in an excited manner, for example yesterday we had the annual Christmas parade here in town. Parking nearby is impossible, so I would have walked (I was training dogs do didn't actually go LOL). In the past I have taken a dog with me since we'll be walking home after dark. It's realistic for the people around me to be suddenly jumping up, clapping their hands, kids to be acting like excited kids do, etc. Dog won't be much use to me when we are walking home if I'm dealing with the cops and AC because he/she nailed someone at the parade. 

must have a solid threat display - 99% of the bite scenarios an average PPD owner is going to find themselves in can be averted by a dog with a strong confident demeanor and an impressive threat display. Also the threat display should be triggerable by command, ie I say the command, the dog gos ballistic, whether it sees a threat or not.

must be willing and able to back up the threat display - having a PPD dog who won't bite is IMO like having a gun without bullets. Useful a lot of the times for the threat display, but of no actual value if things go past the threat stage.

be of a size capable of actually hindering or stopping a human - a 20 lb dog who possess all the other traits is fun, but not much real use other then as an alarm, and IMO a real PPD is more then just an alarm dog

must have SOLID obedience

must be able to go where the owner goes - not just from a social aspect, but an environmental one. A PPD who freaks out in an elevator, won't go up long open flights of stairs, can't be with you on the 4th of July, etc isn't much use

I'm probably missing something, but those are the first things I think of


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## Cesar A. Flores Dueñas

Jackie Mulligan said:


> My dog is an alarm system and a deterrent. My gun is my personal protection. I'm not relying on an animal to save me. Doesn't make any sense.


 Do you practice Schutzhund? or any Working dog activity?


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## Cesar A. Flores Dueñas

Kadi Thingvall said:


> In no particular order I think a good PPD needs the following
> 
> trustworthy around people - this doesn't mean the dog has to be social/outgoing, but it must be capable of going anywhere the owner goes without biting some innocent bystander. This includes places were people might be realistically expected to be acting in an excited manner, for example yesterday we had the annual Christmas parade here in town. Parking nearby is impossible, so I would have walked (I was training dogs do didn't actually go LOL). In the past I have taken a dog with me since we'll be walking home after dark. It's realistic for the people around me to be suddenly jumping up, clapping their hands, kids to be acting like excited kids do, etc. Dog won't be much use to me when we are walking home if I'm dealing with the cops and AC because he/she nailed someone at the parade.
> 
> must have a solid threat display - 99% of the bite scenarios an average PPD owner is going to find themselves in can be averted by a dog with a strong confident demeanor and an impressive threat display. Also the threat display should be triggerable by command, ie I say the command, the dog gos ballistic, whether it sees a threat or not.
> 
> must be willing and able to back up the threat display - having a PPD dog who won't bite is IMO like having a gun without bullets. Useful a lot of the times for the threat display, but of no actual value if things go past the threat stage.
> 
> be of a size capable of actually hindering or stopping a human - a 20 lb dog who possess all the other traits is fun, but not much real use other then as an alarm, and IMO a real PPD is more then just an alarm dog
> 
> must have SOLID obedience
> 
> must be able to go where the owner goes - not just from a social aspect, but an environmental one. A PPD who freaks out in an elevator, won't go up long open flights of stairs, can't be with you on the 4th of July, etc isn't much use
> 
> I'm probably missing something, but those are the first things I think of


I like the explanation, complete for me


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## Butch Cappel

Don, 
I think what your referring to in a dog that understands when the family is in danger, and acts accordingly, is what used to be called "responsibility" when I started training dogs. Koehler used it as a basis for his training system in his book on guard dog training, but we have waaay too many scientific drives to use that old fashioned stuff any more. 

I don't have a problem finding dogs that will be very well behaved in all sorts of settings and still get very violent if the wrong person is threatened. My last partner in my guard dog company, a female GSD walked me through prisons in Ciudad, Jaurez, Mexico, Crack houses at three in the morning in a couple of major cities, as well Teamster and mine labor strikes, for years and I never felt the need for a weapon.

She was also the mascot for a local Brownie Scout troop in El Paso and did a twice monthly television spot on dog care and training. She was devoted, trainable and highly responsible.  I don't see any other requirements for a good PP partner. And I don't see any shortage of dogs that meet those requirements. Heck I'd bet that Don and a few of his friends had dogs when they were kids that would run any other kid out of the yard if told to, and they were possibly mutts, and Don and his buddies didn't know they were PP trainers when they sic'ed that dog on the kid down the street.


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## Dave Colborn

Don Turnipseed said:


> Works every time


What in the good lord's name is on the ceiling making them smile??


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## Jackie Mulligan

Cesar A. Flores Dueñas said:


> Do you practice Schutzhund? or any Working dog activity?


Schutzhund.


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## Anna Kasho

Dave Colborn said:


> What in the good lord's name is on the ceiling making them smile??


I think they're rolling on the floor laughing, from the last time Don let them read some of the threads here...


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## Al Curbow

I think a PPD needs to have cellophane thin thresholds, anti-social have a general distrust of all people. If someone comes in the house they get bit, they're a stranger in the house they get bit, period. If company comes over the dog gets put away. Test the dog and that's it, no training required except a recall.

Jerry, did you meet Kirk, the mal that did ASR? Would he fit the bill as a PPD?

Ceasar,
Some of us Americans are well read and follow international news and politics. Money can buy you out of any trouble you get into in Mexico, EXTREME corruption prevails, so put a few bucks aside for a rainy day and you'll be fine. No need to try and spin a story on Mexico here.


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## Dave Colborn

For everyone who is planning on having the dog instinctively bite, how do you know he/she will do it? It is a nice notion, but how do you really know? I expected my MWD to bite, but I had a plan in case they didn't every time I needed a dog to bite after I heard stories of dogs not engaging. (wasn't always a good plan, sort of like a reserve parachute. something to keep your mind off burning in)

My questions. What makes you think a dog will bite if you don't train him or evaluate him to bite? Is it just watching other dogs that do bite and thinking yours have the same characteristics, or what?


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## Chris McDonald

Howard Gaines III said:


> Chris I forget, aren't your dogs also more social? If the dogs "thought" the person was allowed to be there, why bite? Can't remember...
> 
> I HAVE to put mine away and there have been some close calls. Some might say, "Well it can't be used if its put away." True and that's where Glock and S & W come in. You never know...
> 
> What makes a good dog or a great dog can also be just the show of force. The dog buys you time, time is the difference in dialing 911 or getting to the firepower...It would look real bad on Christmas Day if my dog bite my sister, nothing for me, not even coal!!!!!!!!!!!!!! =;


Maybe a lawsuit from the sister on Christmas


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## Chris McDonald

Don Turnipseed said:


> Works every time


 
That’s a lot of teeth there.. lot of teeth


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## Don Turnipseed

Anna Kasho said:


> I think they're rolling on the floor laughing, from the last time Don let them read some of the threads here...


LOLThat's good Anna...but they can't read.....I was reading the threads to them.


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## Butch Cappel

Dave,
Never meant to suggest that anything is a substitute for training. 

The only way to know your dog is a "responsible" Protection minded kind of beast, is to run a few practice sessions. And even if you have the most responsible Cujo type dog in the world it can still benefit from proper training on how to effectively fight a man, you just need to keep the fighting functional.


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## Butch Cappel

Don,
Quit reading to them dogs!


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## Cesar A. Flores Dueñas

Al Curbow said:


> I think a PPD needs to have cellophane thin thresholds, anti-social have a general distrust of all people. If someone comes in the house they get bit, they're a stranger in the house they get bit, period. If company comes over the dog gets put away. Test the dog and that's it, no training required except a recall.
> 
> Jerry, did you meet Kirk, the mal that did ASR? Would he fit the bill as a PPD?
> 
> Ceasar,
> Some of us Americans are well read and follow international news and politics. Money can buy you out of any trouble you get into in Mexico, EXTREME corruption prevails, so put a few bucks aside for a rainy day and you'll be fine. No need to try and spin a story on Mexico here.


I am not Putting a Story Of Mexico as long as i remeber? i dont get the point of talking about countries politics. You seems to be well read on that. But Translate that knowledge to the Working dogs arena next time you comment a Personal Protection DOg DOnt need to be trained except for a Recall?. Tons and tons of Knowledge about bite work, control, building search as a security measure, scenario management on PPD K9. ANd all we need to know is to do Recal Training.

Damn!


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## Gerry Grimwood

Al Curbow said:


> I think a PPD needs to have cellophane thin thresholds, anti-social have a general distrust of all people. If someone comes in the house they get bit, they're a stranger in the house they get bit, period. If company comes over the dog gets put away. Test the dog and that's it, no training required except a recall.


That's more realistic and believable to me, Rin Tin Tin was about 20 dogs all rolled into one.


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## Don Turnipseed

Butch Cappel said:


> Don,
> I think what your referring to in a dog that understands when the family is in danger, and acts accordingly, is what used to be called "responsibility" when I started training dogs. Koehler used it as a basis for his training system in his book on guard dog training, but we have waaay too many scientific drives to use that old fashioned stuff any more.
> 
> I don't have a problem finding dogs that will be very well behaved in all sorts of settings and still get very violent if the wrong person is threatened. My last partner in my guard dog company, a female GSD walked me through prisons in Ciudad, Jaurez, Mexico, Crack houses at three in the morning in a couple of major cities, as well Teamster and mine labor strikes, for years and I never felt the need for a weapon.
> 
> She was also the mascot for a local Brownie Scout troop in El Paso and did a twice monthly television spot on dog care and training. She was devoted, trainable and highly responsible.  I don't see any other requirements for a good PP partner. And I don't see any shortage of dogs that meet those requirements. Heck I'd bet that Don and a few of his friends had dogs when they were kids that would run any other kid out of the yard if told to, and they were possibly mutts, and Don and his buddies didn't know they were PP trainers when they sic'ed that dog on the kid down the street.


Butch, all the dogs knew "sic em" when I was a kid. That's how we learned to be responsible with our dogs and didn't "sic em" for the fun of it. If you did, you could bet their dog was going to be sic'd on you. Remember those days? No leash laws! Dogs would stay at home and wait till you came home and if they were in the house they didn't have to be crated all day and would never destroy the house. They followed you everywhere without a leash. The bit whoever you sic'd em on. Then training became an art form.


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## Chris McDonald

Lots of interesting answers 
Im not a believer of spending my life worried about the bogey man, but there have been a few break ins around town. A good dog is one that makes it so you don’t even have to “get the gun” because whoever it was moved on. You just wonder what the heck that dam dog was barking at. It’s actually a bit spooky thinking about it like that. How many of us have not had their house broken into because we had a dog? 
I think one of the things I like best about a dog in the house is when you come home, open the door and have the dog walk up to you, and you know no one else is in your house. The few times my dogs were not home for a few days when my family and I came home from a day out it is very different walking into a house with no dogs. I think I might have looked around the house for an extra few seconds. 
I used to think almost all dogs would fit this but I don’t think my Greyhound would. I think someone could walk into my house and hide in a closet with my Greyhound home. And when I or my wife got home my Greyhound would be laying on the floor sleeping and not move. 
I think most of what I am asking for can be covered real well by a chiwawa.
Last year I had a few guys that work for me stop by to talk about a few things. We were out in the front yard looking at what was in the trucks and talking. After a while we noticed one guy that had not worked for me for very long was not with his. After looking around I went inside and found Quinn sitting outside a bathroom door showing some pretty serious concern, I also think one of my other guys called him on his cell. I found my man, seams he was able to walk in the front door and right into the bathroom next to the front door, but Quinn was not letting him out. There were some serious scratches on the door. Now I am a fool and trust people and did not think much of it at the time, but he really didn’t know me close to well enough to help himself to walking into the house without asking if you know what I mean. I didn’t think too much of it at the time, I’m glad that he did not have the opportunity to walk freely around my house. I guess in this case a dog a few more pounds than a chiwawa was better


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## Chris McDonald

Al Curbow said:


> I think a PPD needs to have cellophane thin thresholds, anti-social have a general distrust of all people. If someone comes in the house they get bit, they're a stranger in the house they get bit, period. If company comes over the dog gets put away. Test the dog and that's it, no training required except a recall.
> 
> Al you might be right but I know I would have a way better chance of having a big problem than ever needing the dog for real. Although my mother in-law getting nipped in the ass might be nice. Even if it was a chiwawa


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## Don Turnipseed

Dave Colborn said:


> For everyone who is planning on having the dog instinctively bite, how do you know he/she will do it? It is a nice notion, but how do you really know? I expected my MWD to bite, but I had a plan in case they didn't every time I needed a dog to bite after I heard stories of dogs not engaging. (wasn't always a good plan, sort of like a reserve parachute. something to keep your mind off burning in)
> 
> My questions. What makes you think a dog will bite if you don't train him or evaluate him to bite? Is it just watching other dogs that do bite and thinking yours have the same characteristics, or what?


Dave, I am as sure my dogs will bite, probably more so, in a strange situation as you are. Every situation is strange to these dogs as they have never gone through all the repeated dance steps a trained dog has. Do you know if your dog, that passed the test, will endure extreme pain without curing because he was tested...No you don't. The dogs always win in the scenarios I have seen. Do you know if your dog is going to react in a real situation, like at night on a busy street with 3 people in front of you, like he does on the field. No?? I guess we are all in the same boat.
And I have had to physically stop them a few times. I saw them go after a freind that had sneaked up outside my camp once. Barely had time to call them off. One slammed into his leg, the other had already launched himself and planted both feet in his chest. I don't think he was planning to jump over the guy.


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## Al Curbow

Chris,
I'm not saying i want the described dog just saying what i would want. The mother-inlaw ass bite is just a perk............


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## Bob Scott

I think what makes a good PPD is relative to your needs. I doubt one in 50 people that own one really need a dog that is willing to go to the mat for them. 
I have a JRT that will and has bitten for real. My son had to pry the little bassid off one onf of his smart assed buddy's quad muscle some yrs ago for rough housing after my son said not to. The kid was knocking the crap out of the dog to get him off but Pete must have some Pit in him cause his jaws were locked. :lol::lol:  
I "believe" my older GSD will bite if an honest need arises but I'll never bet my safty on it. 
My younger GSD has a clown personality but also a Jeckle and Hyde side to him but I wouldn't bet my safty on him either.
Missouri has some great CC laws ant the right to defend your home with deadly force. 
That and the visual threat my dogs offer are more then enough to keep me from parinoia......evey if they really are out to get me. 8-] 8-] 8-] ;-)


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## Dave Colborn

Don Turnipseed said:


> Dave, I am as sure my dogs will bite, probably more so, in a strange situation as you are. Every situation is strange to these dogs as they have never gone through all the repeated dance steps a trained dog has. Do you know if your dog, that passed the test, will endure extreme pain without curing because he was tested...No you don't. The dogs always win in the scenarios I have seen. Do you know if your dog is going to react in a real situation, like at night on a busy street with 3 people in front of you, like he does on the field. No?? I guess we are all in the same boat.
> And I have had to physically stop them a few times. I saw them go after a freind that had sneaked up outside my camp once. Barely had time to call them off. One slammed into his leg, the other had already launched himself and planted both feet in his chest. I don't think he was planning to jump over the guy.


 
Don.

I agree. I think we are all in the same boat. You don't know the dog will bite until he does. Then, the next time you need him and the situation has changed, you are on a clean slate again. That was kind of my point. Too many people rely on the dog having "what it takes" to protect the family, without doing any kind of testing or making any other observation. They don't even have a clue as to whether the dog will bite on the field, much less facing worse odds. 

I don't agree that mine will bite moreso in a strange situation. I assume that the dog is not going to be there for me if he hasn't seen it, or something close to it. That being said, it is better to use the dog as a tossed snowball to give you a chance to get out of whatever I deem serious enough to need a dog for in the first place....

There was another poster that mentioned something else I REALLY liked. I never will know how many times my house was skipped because my dog barked, or they knew I had dogs. Something to consider.

I have seen my last working dog bite a couple times. I reviewed it compared to training and it was very similar. To be honest, I didn't expect him to bite the first time and I thought he was going to be running along next to the guy just hopping up in the air like I had seen a couple other dogs do. He bit exactly like he was trained, back of the tricep on a fast running little dude. Tore his clothes off, spit them and came back into the bite just like he should when he missed the initial bite (this part was not trained). He did a wonderful job for a first bite, and we successfully completed our mission. My point in this is as was stated above. You just never know what the dog will do. Always good to have a plan B.


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## Ben Thompson

I saw a news report on youtube where they sent a "burglar" dressed in a full body bite suit to see if the average dog would bite if nobody was home. The only one that did was a police dog that was trained for it. Also I don't know how much this matters but if the burglar knows your dogs name it can gain the dogs trust to a degree not fully of course but...to a degree. You can use a fake name for the public and real name for your dog. 

For example the dogs real name is Buster but you tell the public
( if they ask) his name is Koko the monkey.:lol:


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## Nicole Stark

Chris McDonald said:


> That’s a lot of teeth there.. lot of teeth


Yah for sure. And did you happen to notice the length of those teeth? Wowza. Man, they'd sink a nice one in ya or whatever the hell they were after once they got hold of 'em.


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## James Degale

A good PPD is one which would have kept this man alive

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...999-man-chased-beaten-death-drunken-yobs.html


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## Curtis McHail

Jerry Lyda said:


> Early warning system with ass to back it up if needed.
> Social, a must.
> Continuing education, to keep him on his toes, another must.
> Must be a GSD, LOL just kiddin on this one. Although it is the GSD for me BUT I do have Doodle Bug, a Boston Terrier that thinks he's really the Big Daddy. He will do all that Dave said. Can't take him and leave him in the car. If anyone gets within 25 Ft. he lets them know he is there and waiting for them to , " Make his day."



Finally, the concept put into words. Dogs aren't bullet proof. But you can't snip a wire and expect a dog to not bark, and shooting a dog usually makes a fair amount of sound...enough to wake most people up and give them time to get their gun.

PPD = Non-lethal way to stop somebody who'd otherwise have to be shot (drunk ex-boyfriends seem to find themselves in this catagory a lot 

PPD = Deterrent 

PPD = Time....time to get a gun and call the police. For those who argue "Oh, well you can kill a dog" fail to realize that if worse comes to worst...a PPD is much like a motorcycle helmet...it saves your life but shatters while doing so. So for the adult non-bunny huggers it's simple: A damned good dog vs your children, wife, husband, yourself...which do you want to sacrifice to buy time? Ever seen that show "It Takes a Thief?" see how much time they had between kicking in a door, stealing $10,000 worth of crap and your BMW before the cops got there? Just as easy to use that same amount of time to pop you in your melon in your sleep...but, luckily most of us don't have to worry about that...although a friend of mine for the past 5 years woke up to somebody walking into her backdoor which she failed to lock in a decent middle class neighborhood...luckily "What the hell?" was enough to send him running...btw her Chihuahua woke her up, not ADT...good boy.


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## Howard Gaines III

Curtis McHail said:


> ...a PPD is much like a motorcycle helmet...it saves your life but shatters while doing so. So for the adult non-bunny huggers it's simple: A damned good dog vs your children, *wife,* husband, yourself...*which do you want to sacrifice to buy time?* .


 LOL This is a no brainer...I know some guys who would put the old lady on point/front line and listen closely...if the bad guy isn't talking, the old lady comes through!!!!!!!!!!!:-$


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## Curtis McHail

Howard Gaines III said:


> LOL This is a no brainer...I know some guys who would put the old lady on point/front line and listen closely...if the bad guy isn't talking, the old lady comes through!!!!!!!!!!!:-$


HAHAHA! "HONEY, I heard something down stairs! Take the shotgun, I'll be right behind you!"...............-POW POW- "Hmmm, that sounded like a .45...me and the dog should call 911 from the closet..." :-|


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## Aimee Markle

I've never posted on here before but read this and thought I would reply. I recently told someone that my dog is first and foremost a personal protection dog and does sport work as a hobby. I agree that my dog should give me enough time to get out of the house or call 911, and if necessary will bite if I tell him too. I use sport work to keep up with his training and I am all about working him at my house in more realistic scenarios. For example I have him in the house on his place and my decoy comes pulls in the driveway, comes to the door and tries to force his way in. Practicing at the house is extremely important to me. I've had times where after a phone call I am uncomfortable living alone, but having him there always makes me feel better. Just my thoughts :-D


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## Gillian Schuler

For me a good "Personal Protection Dog" is one I have to stop from biting the intruder if need be, not one I have to "instruct to bite"!!

You can't change the mature of the dog, what he has, he has, either he protects, or he doesn't. 

I tell him when he can bite in Schutzhund but I rely on him to protect me in the home, at least so that I have time to phone "911"


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## maggie fraser

_For me a good "Personal Protection Dog" is one I have to stop from biting the intruder if need be, not one I have to "instruct to bite"!!_

I agree with this!

I've had one like this before, my first gsd more than twenty years ago.... he would rather hold his breath and keep quiet so's any intruder would keep on coming in.... he eventually had to be put down though at 5 yrs old, too much of a liability for my circumstances and could never be left with anyone.


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## Gillian Schuler

Maggie,

I can't leave Buster alone with anyone but then I never leave my dogs with visitors.

The younger one is over friendly but I'd never be happy having my dogs alone in a room with visitors, apart from training colleagues.

Small problem!!


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## Matt Grosch

As a (kinda former) cop, I can say that anyone that relies on the police to protect them is an idiot. There were times when in a medium sized city (approaching 300k) it would take me 30 mins to get from the station to the far edge of town with traffic and construction, and that was on a hot call.

An alarm helps, but you really only have your dog, and more importantly your gun, this you can trust (like Conan's dad told him)


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## Michelle Reusser

Al Curbow said:


> I think a PPD needs to have cellophane thin thresholds, anti-social have a general distrust of all people. If someone comes in the house they get bit, they're a stranger in the house they get bit, period. If company comes over the dog gets put away. Test the dog and that's it, no training required except a recall.


Dunno but this sounds like a guard or junkyard dog not a PPD that can go anywhere. Complete opposite of what I want and look for.


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## Amanda Caldron

I didn't really bother to read through this entire thread because I am sure that people's opinions vary. I would like to say though that I am a very petite woman (4"11 and 110 lbs) living in a bad neighborhood and was raised with a violent upbringing. When I first got into protection dogs it was because of my long history of domestic abuse from the men in my home. On several occasions I would have loved to have a dog that would at least bark or deter my father from beating me and throwing me around. I take the PPD very seriously because I do need to rely on them! Some say they will never have to use them and I do agree with the statistics that it is 98% likely your PPD will never need to bite because strangers see or hear a barking dog hitting a window is more than enough to keep them back. But when you have people from within the home that you are afraid to trust that PPD is a constant reminder of safety and for them a constant reminder not to mess with me. I believe a true PPD should be trustworthy around strangers. Not social but not aggressive for no apparent reason. They must have a strong bond with the owner. They should be a great family companion, travel well, and a strong deterent. I expect them to bark when people come to close to the car (because it is usually crack heads or thieves where I live) My dogs have had to bite on several occasions and the biggest to me obviously is they will stick through a fight to ave my ass. By no means will I ever command my dog without following his back with a weapon of my choice because these dogs are family to me as well. But even without the real crap outside of the home it is most important when the crap goes down inside the home that they know to defend me even against other close family members if need be. (another reason why I like dogs that are one person dogs) If the dogs bark at the door I doubt people are coming in but if for some reason we miss it and someone steals something that is the least of my concern. As long as nobody is harming myself or my son I don't see why my dog should be shot, stabbed, beaten over a piece of property (and nobody would get much out of my house as I am pretty damn poor) Nice thread


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## James Degale

Amanda Caldron said:


> I didn't really bother to read through this entire thread because I am sure that people's opinions vary. I would like to say though that I am a very petite woman (4"11 and 110 lbs) living in a bad neighborhood and was raised with a violent upbringing. When I first got into protection dogs it was because of my long history of domestic abuse from the men in my home. On several occasions I would have loved to have a dog that would at least bark or deter my father from beating me and throwing me around. I take the PPD very seriously because I do need to rely on them! Some say they will never have to use them and I do agree with the statistics that it is 98% likely your PPD will never need to bite because strangers see or hear a barking dog hitting a window is more than enough to keep them back. But when you have people from within the home that you are afraid to trust that PPD is a constant reminder of safety and for them a constant reminder not to mess with me. I believe a true PPD should be trustworthy around strangers. Not social but not aggressive for no apparent reason. They must have a strong bond with the owner. They should be a great family companion, travel well, and a strong deterent. I expect them to bark when people come to close to the car (because it is usually crack heads or thieves where I live) My dogs have had to bite on several occasions and the biggest to me obviously is they will stick through a fight to ave my ass. By no means will I ever command my dog without following his back with a weapon of my choice because these dogs are family to me as well. But even without the real crap outside of the home it is most important when the crap goes down inside the home that they know to defend me even against other close family members if need be. (another reason why I like dogs that are one person dogs) If the dogs bark at the door I doubt people are coming in but if for some reason we miss it and someone steals something that is the least of my concern. As long as nobody is harming myself or my son I don't see why my dog should be shot, stabbed, beaten over a piece of property (and nobody would get much out of my house as I am pretty damn poor) Nice thread


Excellent post here.


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## Stephanie P Johnson

There is no such thing as a good personal protection dog. The term is used by flimflam men to sell training (when as Ms. Shuler has already pointed out, whether or not a dog stands in the door lies in his genetic makeup, not in allowing some yahoo to flank him or hiss at him and make "the claw" to get him to respond defensively.)

Anyone who does bitework with a dog in this current political climate outside the sanction of a recognized dog sport (and I am not including the homemade ones in the term "recognized") is contributing to dog ownership suicide.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

The neighbors dog two houses down that never barks.

If the threat is coming from inside the house, then I doubt that a PPD would be worth **** all.


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## David Ruby

Stephanie P Johnson said:


> There is no such thing as a good personal protection dog. The term is used by flimflam men to sell training (when as Ms. Shuler has already pointed out, whether or not a dog stands in the door lies in his genetic makeup, not in allowing some yahoo to flank him or hiss at him and make "the claw" to get him to respond defensively.)


How does a dog's job determine its quality? I also think it is a bit presumptuous to cast that blanket statement over anybody who has a protection-trained dog with a personal protection type of role in mind. I'm aware of more than a couple people who participate in sport that add civil work and more realistic/street/home type scenarios to their training, some fairly high-profile a/o well-respected. So to assume PP necessarily equals flanking a/o hissing, or that those are always even necessarily bad, seems a bit misguided. And I've seen all of that done in sport, and not just backyard ******* bitework.



> Anyone who does bitework with a dog in this current political climate outside the sanction of a recognized dog sport (and I am not including the homemade ones in the term "recognized") is contributing to dog ownership suicide.


I completely disagree. It should be more about the quality of the work than being sanctioned by a sport. Besides, how many people know what Schutzhund is or Mondio or PSA? The general public doesn't give two craps about that. They might give a crap about a dog that can bite, and whether or not it's under control, trained, and safe for the general public.

I am sure most personal protection is a joke, but to make the concept of a PPD taboo seems counter-intuitive.

-Cheers


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## Patrick Murray

Chris Michalek said:


> I don't believe in Personal Protection dogs.


Chris, since you don't believe in PPD's I can only surmise that you don't own a PPD. 

In the story you cited "someone" stole your wife's purse. A _personal_ protection dog's primary responsibility is to protect the _person, _unlike sentry dogs, who are often times trained to protect property. There_ is_ a difference, Chris.


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## Chris Michalek

Patrick Murray said:


> Chris, since you don't believe in PPD's I can only surmise that you don't own a PPD.
> 
> In the story you cited "someone" stole your wife's purse. A _personal_ protection dog's primary responsibility is to protect the _person, _unlike sentry dogs, who are often times trained to protect property. There_ is_ a difference, Chris.



That's not quite right. I don't believe in the need for one. I have two trained dogs, they will bite on command. They have don't care if you're wearing a sleeve, suit. hidden sleeve or nothing. So in that sense, perhaps I actually have a PPD but I don't believe in relying on a dog, trained or not to protect me. I generally don't hang around the "darker" (not a race comment) side of things. I am a musician and have seen many crazy things and I've played in some of the seediest and dankest places you can think of and in that case I'll think about carrying my .45. I'm not going to spend years of my time training a dog and then go play Billy Badass just to get the dog or me hurt.

In my break in case, the dogs didn't even bark. Now they did give chase to somebody to back wall but it all stopped there. I didn't even know there was somebody in the house until one of the dogs alerted too late and discovered the missing purse.

Even a Sentry dog wouldn't have helped unless it was his job to always stay outside and keep an eye on the property. I could have had the world's toughest and aggressive sentry dog but what good is he if he's at my feet while I have music blaring in my studio with the door nearly shut?

I know things would have been very different if nobody was home and the dogs were alone in a quiet house. I also know things will be different if anything happens again because we train for it.

I'm very happy with my sport dogs. I've trained them so their sport can happen anytime and anywhere and so far they seem comfortable with it. In fact there was knucklehead that confronted my in my yard a year ago, he push my head into the wall because I called him a ****er or something. My Rott didn't hesitate to bite him twice. However, If you were to ask me about my dogs I will tell you they are sport dogs and not personal protection dogs. 

I do not believe I need personal protection. The minute, I allow myself to believe such a thing then I am creating a space for fear in my head. I don't have the time nor spirit to be fearful. Whatever happens happens and if one of my dogs is around to intervene then its the will of the universe.


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## Patrick Murray

Stephanie P Johnson said:


> There is no such thing as a good personal protection dog. The term is used by flimflam men to sell training (when as Ms. Shuler has already pointed out, whether or not a dog stands in the door lies in his genetic makeup, not in allowing some yahoo to flank him or hiss at him and make "the claw" to get him to respond defensively.)
> 
> Anyone who does bitework with a dog in this current political climate outside the sanction of a recognized dog sport (and I am not including the homemade ones in the term "recognized") is contributing to dog ownership suicide.


Stephanie, you couldn't_ possibly_ be more wrong. There are plenty of excellent, serious, family-companion dogs that will bite the bejeebers out of someone who assaults their handler/family. Your statement about PPD trainers being "flimflam men" is totally uncalled for and out of line.


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## Chris Michalek

Patrick Murray said:


> Stephanie, you couldn't_ possibly_ be more wrong. There are plenty of excellent, serious, family-companion dogs that will bite the bejeebers out of someone who assaults their handler/family. Your statement about PPD trainers being "flimflam men" is totally uncalled for and out of line.



looks like your calling out people to pick a fight. 

Let's see some video of your PPDs at work.


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## Patrick Murray

Chris Michalek said:


> looks like your calling out people to pick a fight.
> 
> Let's see some video of your PPDs at work.


How am I trying to pick a fight, Chris? The poster came onto this board and made a statement that all PPD trainers are crooks. So, you're cool with her blanket statement but my response in defense of PPD trainers is out of line, right?


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## Chris Michalek

Patrick Murray said:


> How am I trying to pick a fight, Chris? The poster came onto this board and made a statement that all PPD trainers are crooks. So, you're cool with her blanket statement but my response in defense of PPD trainers is out of line, right?



you pulled my rather old post and then that one. I ain't the brightest bulb in the ground but it appears to me to are taking offense to something she didn't say. YOU are the only one who says "ALL PPD TRAINERS ARE CROOKS" 

In fact she doesn't even mention the word trainer or crook. So it seems you're taking offense to something that doesn't exactly exist. 

How much experience do you have with training PPDs?


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## Connie Sutherland

_"There is no such thing as a good personal protection dog. The term is used by flimflam men to sell training (when as Ms. Shuler has already pointed out, whether or not a dog stands in the door lies in his genetic makeup, not in allowing some yahoo to flank him or hiss at him and make "the claw" to get him to respond defensively.)"_ 

This is a statement that, if anyone had pointed it out to a mod or admin, would have had action taken against it. 

The statement was made before a new (and we really hope productive) alteration was made to the way the board is managed.

Blanket and pointless statements like this won't be tolerated. 

Please move on. Thanks.


Stephanie, please see your PMs. Thank you.


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## David Ruby

Chris Michalek said:


> you pulled my rather old post and then that one. I ain't the brightest bulb in the ground but it appears to me to are taking offense to something she didn't say. YOU are the only one who says "ALL PPD TRAINERS ARE CROOKS"
> 
> In fact she doesn't even mention the word trainer or crook. So it seems you're taking offense to something that doesn't exactly exist.
> 
> How much experience do you have with training PPDs?


Hey Chris, not to take sides but she did say:



> There is no such thing as a good personal protection dog.


Which anybody training to create a dog legitimately used for any form of personal protection will likely take offense at.



> The term is used by flimflam men to sell training (when as Ms. Shuler has already pointed out, whether or not a dog stands in the door lies in his genetic makeup, not in allowing some yahoo to flank him or hiss at him and make "the claw" to get him to respond defensively.)


Which comes across as a blanket statement defining all PP folk as scam artists. Even if she's right most of the time, I believe there are exceptions, some of which train (rather successfully) in sport and PP/security-minded training. So I can see why Patrick a/o others might take exception.

That said, I do understand your position. I think of PPDs at least in theory the way you think of your .45 in your earlier scenario. Having one around doesn't mean I'm living in fear. It's more-or-less (at least hypothetically) a last-resort or a backup plan if avoiding bad places doesn't work and something bad happens, like your wife gets stopped jogging (which has I believe happened to your wife from a post a while ago) and you want the dog to react, or somebody breaks into your home and doesn't stop at your wife's purse. I would imagine most get interested in personal protection for that very reason; a dog that can deter but also react at least enough to hopefully get you out alive if somebody tries to mug you, kidnap your child(ren), abduct/assault your wife/girlfriend. I also believe a lot, maybe/probably most, are banking on people being uber impressed with a dog that snarls and looks like a giant, mean, preferably black or dark-colored dog. What can I say, I'm a fence-sitter and can understand both positions.

-Cheers


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## Chris Michalek

I understand. I actually understand Patrick's side too but he started interjecting words that were never used originally and that is how things get twisted around. 

Patrick obviously doesn't have many years of actual training experience under his belt so he shouldn't take offense at the statement anyway. As for the actual comment, its no different than saying all harmonica players suck and are shitty musicians. Ya know what? They do. I don't take offense at that statement because it's generally true but it doesn't apply to me because I did the work to become a world class harmonica player. I help my harmonica playing brethren by setting the example and not allowing myself to be part of the pack.

I think the moment I refer to my dogs as PPDs then my mindset changes. They are sport dogs that will bite for real. I couldn't be happier.




David Ruby said:


> Hey Chris, not to take sides but she did say:
> 
> Which anybody training to create a dog legitimately used for any form of personal protection will likely take offense at.
> 
> Which comes across as a blanket statement defining all PP folk as scam artists. Even if she's right most of the time, I believe there are exceptions, some of which train (rather successfully) in sport and PP/security-minded training. So I can see why Patrick a/o others might take exception.
> 
> That said, I do understand your position. I think of PPDs at least in theory the way you think of your .45 in your earlier scenario. Having one around doesn't mean I'm living in fear. It's more-or-less (at least hypothetically) a last-resort or a backup plan if avoiding bad places doesn't work and something bad happens, like your wife gets stopped jogging (which has I believe happened to your wife from a post a while ago) and you want the dog to react, or somebody breaks into your home and doesn't stop at your wife's purse. I would imagine most get interested in personal protection for that very reason; a dog that can deter but also react at least enough to hopefully get you out alive if somebody tries to mug you, kidnap your child(ren), abduct/assault your wife/girlfriend. I also believe a lot, maybe/probably most, are banking on people being uber impressed with a dog that snarls and looks like a giant, mean, preferably black or dark-colored dog. What can I say, I'm a fence-sitter and can understand both positions.
> 
> -Cheers


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## Connie Sutherland

Chris Michalek said:


> I understand. I actually understand Patrick's side too ... I think the moment I refer to my dogs as PPDs then my mindset changes. They are sport dogs that will bite for real. I couldn't be happier.



That's interesting. I'm not just saying that to smooth over. :lol: I have never heard that.

In what situation/circumstance would "PPD" be the term you would use?


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## Connie Sutherland

_"Which comes across as a blanket statement defining all PP folk as scam artists. Even if she's right most of the time, I believe there are exceptions, some of which train (rather successfully) in sport and PP/security-minded training. So I can see why Patrick a/o others might take exception."_ (David Ruby)


David --- how does one (or how do you) assess exceptions?


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## Patrick Murray

Connie, I stopped posting to this board because of the hostility and negativity of posters against those who own/train PPD dogs. I had previously enjoyed the opportunity to discuss PPD dogs with fellow PPD dog enthusiasts and trainers here on this board. However, as time went by, PPD threads became the frequent target of attacks by the anti-PPD crowd. 

There are a number of sub-sections to the "working dog" topic, PPD training being one of them. Is it too much to ask that those who don't believe in PPD dogs refrain from participating in PPD topics posted in the _Personal Protections Dogs_ forum? It is analogous to an athiest going into a Catholic forum and creating posts that God doesn't exist, etc. I think that type of behavior is incredibly rude and does nothing for the betterment of the board. 

I'm a member of several other non-dog forums. They are better forums than this for the simple reason that they _demand_ a higher level of decorum from their members. The big thing this forum lacks is respect and consideration. I hope those attributes return to this forum. I'll try to do my part.


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## Connie Sutherland

No different from blanket SchH-bashing or all the other bashing on the board ... not acceptable and not tolerated. 

Let's move on.


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## Patrick Murray

Chris Michalek said:


> I understand. I actually understand Patrick's side too but he started interjecting words that were never used originally and that is how things get twisted around. Patrick obviously doesn't have many years of actual training experience under his belt so he shouldn't take offense at the statement anyway.


Huh? 

The poster said PPD trainers are "flimflam men". She's saying that PPD trainers are con artists and crooks. You say I'm wrong. Ok, Chris, then what did she mean?

How many "years of experience" do I have? What does my experience or whether or not I own a PPD dog (as you inferred in a previous post) have to do with a poster making a blanket statement assailing PPD trainers? So, because I take exception to this poster's characterization of PPD trainers, you then start making authoritative statements that I don't have "years of experience" and so forth? What does my experience have to do with the present topic at hand? The answer is...nothing. Incidentally, you know _nothing_ about me or my experiences.


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## Lee H Sternberg

Hey Patrick, how are you doing? I just noticed your posts. Stay Tranquilo. If you don't know what that means I'm sure your wife can tell you.


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## James Downey

Keeping it simple. I 

I care if my sport dogs outs when I tell him

I could give a shit if my PPD did.


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## Jerry Lyda

I want both of mine to out when told and ONLY when told.


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## James Downey

I have to ask why?

I can understand the sport dog...losing points, getting Dq' ed

But PPD....All I would care about is if the dog bit the bad guy. Makes no difference to me if the dog let's go when told....but I bet it matters to the bad guy. For me, I can always just choke em' off. and if could not do that...well, that does not really make a difference to me either.

Hell If I could forgo having to teach the out and just make the dog bite...That's one less variable in the picture.

And I agree only when told....But I was assuming we were talking about sport and ppd....not dogs trying to be sport or PPD.


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## Jerry Lyda

Well, I didn't say anything about how soon to have him out. He must just out when I tell him to. LOL

Really I quess I'm from the old school. I believe this, Anything a dog does stems from obedience. If the dog can't follow simple ob then how can he do most anything else.


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## Kyle Sprag

Jerry Lyda said:


> Well, I didn't say anything about how soon to have him out. He must just out when I tell him to. LOL
> 
> Really I quess I'm from the old school. I believe this, Anything a dog does stems from obedience. If the dog can't follow simple ob then how can he do most anything else.


That is How I see it as well. I don't think it is "old school" I think it is from a trainers POV.


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## Kristina Senter

Not sure if anyone has brought it up yet, but for me a "PP dog" varies with each owner's situation.


----------



## David Ruby

Connie Sutherland said:


> _"Which comes across as a blanket statement defining all PP folk as scam artists. Even if she's right most of the time, I believe there are exceptions, some of which train (rather successfully) in sport and PP/security-minded training. So I can see why Patrick a/o others might take exception."_ (David Ruby)
> 
> 
> David --- how does one (or how do you) assess exceptions?


Not sure if I'm answering what you are asking, but I think when something somebody believes in is bashed as a whole people are going to get annoyed. Not that it is my role to assess something as worthy or not, but I could see where both sides were coming from. I think if we all went out for a beer and laid our opinions down on the table we could all see each others' points, or just agree we have different perspectives.

That probably wasn't what you were asking. Regardless, I think both were just stating their opinions without trying to start a fight, but I've been wrong before.

-Cheers


----------



## Connie Sutherland

David Ruby said:


> ... That probably wasn't what you were asking. Regardless, I think both were just stating their opinions without trying to start a fight, but I've been wrong before.
> 
> -Cheers


Well, no, it wasn't what I was asking, but this was still a good answer. :lol:

It would be really good to move on from that whole blanket-indictment post, I think, though. 



Anyway, I meant:


David said: _"Even if she's right most of the time, I believe there are exceptions, some of which train (rather successfully) in sport and PP/security-minded training"
_
and I asked: _"David --- how does one (or how do you) assess exceptions?"_


----------



## David Ruby

James Downey said:


> I have to ask why?
> 
> I can understand the sport dog...losing points, getting Dq' ed
> 
> But PPD....All I would care about is if the dog bit the bad guy. Makes no difference to me if the dog let's go when told....but I bet it matters to the bad guy. For me, I can always just choke em' off. and if could not do that...well, that does not really make a difference to me either.
> 
> Hell If I could forgo having to teach the out and just make the dog bite...That's one less variable in the picture.
> 
> And I agree only when told....But I was assuming we were talking about sport and ppd....not dogs trying to be sport or PPD.





Jerry Lyda said:


> Well, I didn't say anything about how soon to have him out. He must just out when I tell him to. LOL
> 
> Really I quess I'm from the old school. I believe this, Anything a dog does stems from obedience. If the dog can't follow simple ob then how can he do most anything else.


What Jerry said. If I have a dog that I expect to be able to bite a/o fight a bad guy to protect me, I would want/expect very good OB. For one, I guess I was taught by people with the same mindset as Jerry. It all stems from obedience. I would want as much control over a dog that was trained to bite, in any setting be it sport or for personal protection, just as a matter of course. It was how I had it first taught/explained to me, and the demonstrations made sense.

Second, If the dog or I F-up, I better be able to tell him to out or not engage. It might keep them from biting the wrong person, or if I had the dog engage long enough for me to escape I would want them to out and recall so we could get the heck out of there. Or if the cops showed up and were freaked out and I didn't want to risk my dog getting shot by staying on the bad guy. Or if the "bad guy" was a kid trying to rob my TV and is now just a freaked out kid that is getting ripped apart I might want to end that without choking my dog off (and maybe it's a middle of the night home invasion and the dogs collar comes off and I just don't want to try and rip the dog off or look for a lead or something). A PPD is meant to be a dog that can accompany you anywhere. As such, the dog should be quite well-trained.

-Cheers


----------



## Chris Michalek

Connie Sutherland said:


> That's interesting. I'm not just saying that to smooth over. :lol: I have never heard that.
> 
> In what situation/circumstance would "PPD" be the term you would use?



Call the law of attraction or something similar. I believe if I tell myself I have a PPD then I will soon find myself in situations where I might need one and I don't want that. I like a serious dog and I certainly don't want a sleeve dog but I like to keep my focus on sport because to me, that open up opportunities for me to find things that make my dog a better sport dog.

Tonight is a perfect example of how this works for me. I have always wanted to get into Ring sports but haven't had any luck over the past year. A few weeks ago, I picked up a bite suit and then tonight out of the blue, I get a text message that says BITE [email protected] it was from an unknown number so I called it and talked to the guy on the other end. He said he got my number from xxx and heard that I have two nice dogs so he wanted to check them out. 

I went to Bite Club and it turned out to be a French Ring club that does whatever bite sport you're interested in. 

So we put both of my dogs on the leg sleeve tonight and I can't be happier.

Now, even though I have dogs that I know will bite sans equipment, I think if I had a different mindset say PP then I would find myself in those kinds of situations and that's not where I want to be at the moment.


----------



## David Ruby

Connie Sutherland said:


> Well, no, it wasn't what I was asking, but this was still a good answer. :lol:
> 
> It would be really good to move on from that whole blanket-indictment post, I think, though.
> 
> 
> 
> Anyway, I meant:
> 
> 
> David said: _"Even if she's right most of the time, I believe there are exceptions, some of which train (rather successfully) in sport and PP/security-minded training"
> _
> and I asked: _"David --- how does one (or how do you) assess exceptions?"_


Sorry. The exceptions that I've seen and believe are positive exceptions to the rule are ones that have their dogs very well trained, used as demo dogs, but have talked to a/o worked in/with police, security, military, or similar applications, and know how crimes tend to happen (e.g. car jackings, muggings, stalkings, etc.) and train to them, and keep trying to find ways to make the dogs think and do different things. The bite work is not all that different, but there is more focus on the agitator and less carrying of or fixating on the sleeve (which is probably more important for making sure the "bad guy" is really taking off for good), the dog's demeanor is ideally in the mode of fighting and not just the goofy "hey I won the sleeve" (although that's a progression), the dog's confident not just flanked/badgered into defense of fear-biting. So a lot of similarities to sport, but there seem to be differences. So again, I'm not an expert, and obviously open to criticism as such, but some dogs just seem legitimately more about getting to the agitator rather than winning the sleeve.

As for a formal assessment? I wish there was one. Maybe the APPDA or something like PSA or some variant of Ringsport becomes the SAT for personal protection dogs. I kind of have to take the opinion of the decoys working the dogs in some instances, and my own observations of the dog compared to the pressure applied. I also know of some trainers with good reputation who have done well in sport and train dogs for personal protection. Ones that are open about it include Cheryl Carlson of CherCar, Irina and Mark at Red Star, Jon Naroditsky at Fala Woods, Paul Cipparone at WellingtonK9, Chris Fraize, and I'm sure others. So I would assess them as being good trainers a/o kennels that do personal protection work that have good reputations and success in different training venues including (but not limited to) sport training.

Maybe I'm wrong, but at bare minimal I've seen some PPDs that were trained to be very well-controlled and have impressed some sport decoys and seemed to enjoy the fight and seemed to do just as well as the sport dogs I've seen. Could a great decoy or committed bad guy run them off with more pressure? Maybe I also acknowledge there are people out there that make all of the claims/concerns against PP training as a whole justifiable.. But I just think there are some genuinely good PPD trainers, or people who do PPD & Sport, as well as some nice dogs being used for such apps that could (and relatives of said PPDs have) done well in sport, sometimes bred & trained by the same people.

-Cheers


----------



## David Ruby

Chris Michalek said:


> Call the law of attraction or something similar. I believe if I tell myself I have a PPD then I will soon find myself in situations where I might need one and I don't want that. I like a serious dog and I certainly don't want a sleeve dog but I like to keep my focus on sport because to me, that open up opportunities for me to find things that make my dog a better sport dog.


I think there is a certain something to that. Some say similar things about carrying a gun or weapon. If you have one, you are more likely to use it a/o go places that might cause/allow you to use it.



> Tonight is a perfect example of how this works for me. I have always wanted to get into Ring sports but haven't had any luck over the past year. A few weeks ago, I picked up a bite suit and then tonight out of the blue, I get a text message that says BITE [email protected] it was from an unknown number so I called it and talked to the guy on the other end. He said he got my number from xxx and heard that I have two nice dogs so he wanted to check them out.
> 
> I went to Bite Club and it turned out to be a French Ring club that does whatever bite sport you're interested in.
> 
> So we put both of my dogs on the leg sleeve tonight and I can't be happier.
> 
> Now, even though I have dogs that I know will bite sans equipment, I think if I had a different mindset say PP then I would find myself in those kinds of situations and that's not where I want to be at the moment.


Cool! I do think it is possible to have a PPD, gun, knife, and not have it change your mindset, although I can see your point.

See, we can all get along! Maybe sing kumbaya and do trust falls. Share the good times expressing our opinions without resorting to arguing. Enjoy watching the Packers win their first Super Bowl since XXXI maybe? :wink:

-Cheers


----------



## Chris Michalek

Patrick Murray said:


> Huh?
> 
> The poster said PPD trainers are "flimflam men". She's saying that PPD trainers are con artists and crooks. You say I'm wrong. Ok, Chris, then what did she mean?
> 
> How many "years of experience" do I have? What does my experience or whether or not I own a PPD dog (as you inferred in a previous post) have to do with a poster making a blanket statement assailing PPD trainers? So, because I take exception to this poster's characterization of PPD trainers, you then start making authoritative statements that I don't have "years of experience" and so forth? What does my experience have to do with the present topic at hand? The answer is...nothing. Incidentally, you know _nothing_ about me or my experiences.



Ok Patrick, 

She said. Personal Protection Dog is a term used by"shady" trainers to make money when really it all in the genetic make up of the animal. I understand her point and I understand you're point but you've taken offense to something that you don't need to find offensive. Stephanie clearly believes, if you have a dog with the appropriate levels of courage, confidence and possessiveness etc the dog will be there for you when you need it, trained or not trained. I have seen such a dog but only one. 

Secondly she is implying that flaking a dog and raising a fist over your head to simulate a threat isn't going to make a great protection dog if the dog doesn't have the proper genetic make up. I have seen many such dogs that look great but when you put real pressure on them, they fold.

Lastly, an experience dogman would say "chris, I've been working dogs for XXX years, I read your crap and most of it is bullshit." You didn't say that, instead you got defensive about my query and are trying to redirect.

My point in pointing out your experience level is, you obviously don't have a ton of experience at training dogs in protection work. You may think I don't know but I see the questions you ask here and other places. For example "what is a clatter stick used for?" I know you asked that question a couple of years ago but in a few years you didn't suddenly become a good personal protection trainer, it takes lots of years, lots of dogs, lots of breeds and lots of scenario to gain experience and you simply can't see it all in the course of a couple of years. Thusly, you are green protection trainer and have no business taking offense at a blanket statement like Stephanie's unless it actually applies to you. 

So with three years of protection training experience are you offering your services to the public? Are you telling people you will take their money and train whatever dog they have to be a personal protection dog? If you are, then you proved Stephanie right because a true PPD begins with the right dog and that usually isn't somebody's pet.

If you were an good protection trainer, you wouldn't take offense at such a comment because the good ones know what they are doing and do it for the love of the game not so much the money. They don't feel offended that such a statement might drive away their business. If you are good at what you then everything else will fall into place.


----------



## Stephanie P Johnson

Mr. Murray wrote:

"There are plenty of excellent, serious, family-companion dogs that will bite the bejeebers out of someone who assaults their handler/family."

Really? Prove it. I won't even ask for plenty. Give me ONE example of a dog trained and sold by a personal protection dog vendor who actually protected. I will require name of vendor, name of handler/family and incident report. Awaiting your reply.

*mod edit* If you have a comment to a moderator, put it in a PM.


----------



## Don Turnipseed

Stephanie, not to question the rational here but it seems your last post starts off with a quote about family companion dogs......and ends up looking for proof regarding trained dogs. Is something taken out of context or am I still asleep and not understanding??


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen

WOW.

The walt disney show world of PP is and always has been a scam. The people who think they need this shit the most, are the ones who are the least able to deal with the type of dog necessary.

It is a trophy thing with the well off. You sell them a good looking dog that is middle of the road and you make money to pay for stuff. It is a business model. Reading anything more into it is just too much.

Lets look at this from a realistic angle. What kind of person wants a PP dog ?? I know a LOT of people, having been in the nightclub business for a long long time. I do not know ANYONE who has a PP dog really.

Ok, so that kind of gives me a bit of experience with people. Most people have a dog. Just a dog.

Then lets look at the people that are successful with selling these dogs. The few that I know charge outrageous prices, and are selling to athletes and the ultra rich.

Then lets look at a specific example. Lets look at Seagal's dog that he JUST bought. Look at the BS that he was sold about the dog was trained to not like anyone, and then lets look at the dog sitting on the couch with him. Dog looked fine to me. I didn't see any of the body language that would indicate that he had been trained to not like "everyone".

Then lets look at the majority of dogs that have protected their owners that we see in the news, as that is the only documented proof that is even sorta reasonable. A collection of small dogs, lab mixes, and pit bulls. 

NO TRAINING.


----------



## andreas broqvist

Gett a Fila from brazill and that is that. So now you are safe, No one ellse are


----------



## Kristina Senter

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> It is a business model. Reading anything more into it is just too much.


And a good one....Im sure they're laughing all the way to the bank!


----------



## Stephanie P Johnson

Don Turnipseed said:


> Stephanie, not to question the rational here but it seems your last post starts off with a quote about family companion dogs......and ends up looking for proof regarding trained dogs. Is something taken out of context or am I still asleep and not understanding??


Hello Mr. Turnipseed,

The poster is taking exception to my statement regarding those who use the term personal protection dog to further their agenda.

A dog (companion/pet, psd, sport or otherwise) is strong or he is not. To prey on those who believe otherwise and profiteer from the ignorance and fear that lie behind the suggestion that a dog can be made a man-stopper through "training" is reprehensible.


----------



## Howard Gaines III

James Downey said:


> Keeping it simple. I
> 
> I care if my sport dogs outs when I tell him
> 
> I could give a shit if my PPD did.


 I think there are foks who will scam others and there are folks who are DUMB enough to be had! 

For legal reasons, all dogs should be UNDER CONTROL and either out with a verbal or a lift off. If your dog eats up the bad guy who is breaking in and you can't out it, it isn't any different than shooting the bad guy 50 times...

If they "give up" and are not combative, I beat you would lose you life's fortune for letting the dog eat him! As a PPD, it is important for training purposes to make sure your dog will or can out on command. If you're big enough to break into someone's home or business, then you're big enough to face whatever comes your way, including the owner knocking your light out with a good kick or punch!!!


----------



## Don Turnipseed

I see your point Stephanie. I tend to agree with it to a point. I disagree with it being reprehensible. Why? Because many believe in the trained dogs scenario being a better dog. For some things it may well be. If some believe training makes the dog, then they are not trying pulling the wool over anyones eyes. Buyers beleive it or they would save their money and buy a dog that had natural protective instinct and save their money. As it is, many buy the trained dog because they get bragging rights with it plus, the dog is, or should come well trained in the areas of obedience. I always look at AKC dogs much the same way and mine are AKC. The truth is, most of what they are buying is the papers so the can say they have a pedigreed dog. They don't want the dog without the papers regardless of how good. That is just the way it is. There are some that are in the class of what we called "dogtraders" back in the day. Well, there are good doctors and bad doctors, there are good cops and bad cops. It is life As someone said on this list I believe, "There is an ass for every seat"...... and so there is.


----------



## Tim Lynam

In 2001 there were 68 million canines kept as pets in the USA. 

There were 365,245 bites treated at ER’s.

I’ll throw out 164,625 (42%) that were bites on people 14 yrs. and under as not usually someone you have your big bad PPD attack.

That leaves 200,620 or 58% of the 365,245.

I’ll also throw out 16,526 (4.5%) work related bites. Postmen, meter readers, etc.

That leaves 184,094 or 53.5%. (1)

Just for the sake of argument, let’s assume ALL 184,094 of those are righteous bites by trained PPD’s on persons 15 yrs. old or older. 

Now if my math is right (are you with me Kadi?) that means that out of the 68 million dogs, those PPD trained dogs had a 0.27% chance of getting a real, righteous bite (and DID bite) per year.

If I get an $850.00 ADT Alarm system right now, it’s $34.00 service fee, per month, equipment included.(2) That’s $4080.00 over 10 years. My home owners’ insurance rates go down because I have taken tangible steps to protect my property. If I spend that same amount owning a pet dog for that same 10 years, my rates go up starting year one, because I have raised my level of liability...

So, what do you call someone who charges you for a product/service, offers no written guarantee it will perform as advertised, that even given the ridiculously best of circumstances knows you only have a 0.27% chance of successfully ever utilizing said as advertised, and at the same time knowingly raises your level of liability?

A PPD Trainer? A Street Gun Dealer? A Snake Oil Salesman? A Flim-Flam Man?

Heck, all of the above!

I trained hard and became a National Level Decoy. I trained hard and became a 5-State Handgun Champion. Why? Because I loved to do those things. I found the best trainers I could and earned my keep. All of them train Personal Protection TACTICS. They weed out the wrong-headed idiots with unreal expectations of having Superdog and being Wyatt Earp. They train reality. After all that, do I believe a dog could make a difference when Murphy steps into my life? Probably. Do I believe I could put a bullet in a human if I had to? Probably. Do I believe I will ever be in a situation to find out. No. Those trainers taught me how to keep myself out of those situations. They taught me that if it did happen and I had time to send the dog, do it, run like hell and if you’re lucky the dog isn’t on your heels. If you get outta there, have dialed 911 and happen to think of calling the dog, and it comes, you’re really lucky. Oh, and if you actually have to pull a gun and shoot a person, you aren’t lucky at all. Alive yes.

True trainers teach deterrence and avoidance. They certainly won’t try to tell you that in the unbelievable situation, you and your dog will act believably... They just want to train you enough to hopefully act at all...

(1) http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5226a1.htm

(2) http://www.homesecurityfamily.com/


----------



## David Frost

Tim, in all seriousness, I found your post very interesting. I agree with a heck of a lot more of it than I disagree with. Interesting perspective.

DFrost


----------



## David Ruby

Hey Tim,



Tim Lynam said:


> In 2001 there were 68 million canines kept as pets in the USA.
> 
> There were 365,245 bites treated at ER’s.
> 
> I’ll throw out 164,625 (42%) that were bites on people 14 yrs. and under as not usually someone you have your big bad PPD attack.
> 
> That leaves 200,620 or 58% of the 365,245.
> 
> I’ll also throw out 16,526 (4.5%) work related bites. Postmen, meter readers, etc.
> 
> That leaves 184,094 or 53.5%. (1)
> 
> Just for the sake of argument, let’s assume ALL 184,094 of those are righteous bites by trained PPD’s on persons 15 yrs. old or older.
> 
> Now if my math is right (are you with me Kadi?) that means that out of the 68 million dogs, those PPD trained dogs had a 0.27% chance of getting a real, righteous bite (and DID bite) per year.
> 
> If I get an $850.00 ADT Alarm system right now, it’s $34.00 service fee, per month, equipment included.(2) That’s $4080.00 over 10 years. My home owners’ insurance rates go down because I have taken tangible steps to protect my property. If I spend that same amount owning a pet dog for that same 10 years, my rates go up starting year one, because I have raised my level of liability...
> 
> So, what do you call someone who charges you for a product/service, offers no written guarantee it will perform as advertised, that even given the ridiculously best of circumstances knows you only have a 0.27% chance of successfully ever utilizing said as advertised, and at the same time knowingly raises your level of liability?
> 
> A PPD Trainer? A Street Gun Dealer? A Snake Oil Salesman? A Flim-Flam Man?
> 
> Heck, all of the above!


I'd agree. However, I don't think a reputable PPD trainer/broker would guarantee anything. That probably seems like splitting hairs, but people that take this seriously also seem to indicate it's about layers of defense. That and you can't take your ADT Alarm System with you everywhere. Still, I'm in agreement with you, believe it or not.



> I trained hard and became a National Level Decoy. I trained hard and became a 5-State Handgun Champion. Why? Because I loved to do those things. I found the best trainers I could and earned my keep. All of them train Personal Protection TACTICS. They weed out the wrong-headed idiots with unreal expectations of having Superdog and being Wyatt Earp. They train reality. After all that, do I believe a dog could make a difference when Murphy steps into my life? Probably. Do I believe I could put a bullet in a human if I had to? Probably. Do I believe I will ever be in a situation to find out. No. Those trainers taught me how to keep myself out of those situations. They taught me that if it did happen and I had time to send the dog, do it, run like hell and if you’re lucky the dog isn’t on your heels. If you get outta there, have dialed 911 and happen to think of calling the dog, and it comes, you’re really lucky. Oh, and if you actually have to pull a gun and shoot a person, you aren’t lucky at all. Alive yes.


I'd agree with all of that.



> True trainers teach deterrence and avoidance. They certainly won’t try to tell you that in the unbelievable situation, you and your dog will act believably... They just want to train you enough to hopefully act at all...
> 
> (1) http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5226a1.htm
> 
> (2) http://www.homesecurityfamily.com/


I'd agree with that as well.

Honestly, I think for real-life civilian applications, most people probably plan for a PPD as a what-if in case they are part of that fraction of a percent that gets the home invasion, car jacking, or to keep their daughter/wife safe for muggers or rapists on their morning runs. There is also Project Safe Run and probably other similar programs. I realize a dog for Project Safe Run is not going to be the same thing as a PH1 dog or what most people think of when they think of PPDs, but that is the kind of stuff I think most Americans (or at least some, most is a bit much) have in mind for a protection role with a PPD. That or a protection trained sport-type dog that does things like civil work, home invasions, and scenarios based around their daily routines or outside of the training/trial field.

So I can't/don't discount most anything you say, or what Jeff and Chris and Stephanie are saying. I just believe there are at least a few out there who are training dogs that aren't total crappers and planning their training around being a good deterrent and the tactics of the "what-ifs" of if somebody does X, Y, or Z when you are on your morning run or when you're asleep at night. Not only so you see how the dog reacts, but so the handler knows how to deal with the dog and how to get away. Is it a total one-in-a-million for the overwhelming majority of us? Sure. But I do not find that ample proof to say there is no such thing as a good PPD/PP-trainer, or that there is anything wrong with training for those what-ifs provided you do so in a legit manner.

-Cheers


----------



## David Ruby

Stephanie P Johnson said:


> Mr. Murray wrote:
> 
> "There are plenty of excellent, serious, family-companion dogs that will bite the bejeebers out of someone who assaults their handler/family."
> 
> Really? Prove it. I won't even ask for plenty. Give me ONE example of a dog trained and sold by a personal protection dog vendor who actually protected. I will require name of vendor, name of handler/family and incident report. Awaiting your reply.
> 
> *mod edit* If you have a comment to a moderator, put it in a PM.


Hey Stephanie, this dog apparently has a live bite on it:









http://www.wellingtonk9.com/protection.htm

You can ask about the handler's name or the incident report, but the dog was trained (not brokered though, sorry) by Paul Cipparone. He said on a message board the dog was trained for PP and had a live bite; I believe the woman was being stalked. I'm not claiming this is a man-stopping high-level personal protection dog, but it makes for a great story. It really proves nothing in the grand scheme of things one way or the other, but you did ask for one. But Paul is pretty reputable and an old French Ring guy so I doubt he'd stake his name on a bogus story. And if I somehow got the facts wrong, I will totally recant. I'm going by what I read on an Internet post so if somebody's been claiming to be Paul for years on a message board and it's wrong, or I somehow got my story wrong, that's totally on me not him. Still, he's discussed that on an open Internet forum in the past so if you asked him he'd probably fill you in a bit.



Stephanie P Johnson said:


> Hello Mr. Turnipseed,
> 
> The poster is taking exception to my statement regarding those who use the term personal protection dog to further their agenda.
> 
> A dog (companion/pet, psd, sport or otherwise) is strong or he is not. To prey on those who believe otherwise and profiteer from the ignorance and fear that lie behind the suggestion that a dog can be made a man-stopper through "training" is reprehensible.


I think the poster took exception with the seeming implication that anybody/everybody who trained dogs for personal protection in any sense of the word was a scammer. Personally I don't think that's entirely the case, however most of the time you are probably right, the number of people who are legitimate trainers that deal in anything approaching legitimate personal protection are probably so few than unless you know & trust somebody that trains with that in mind I doubt it matters, and I really don't feel a strong need to change your opinion.

As for the dog being strong or not and the morality of trying to sell a weak dog as a man-stopper, agreed. Forcing a dog that isn't strong into bitework a/o telling people you can make a dog that has an aversion to or just doesn't have it in them into a manstopping PPD is wrong, and obviously there are examples of that out there that have turned out poorly for the dog and the "trainers" that decided to give that a whirl. I just didn't think that was what Patrick was arguing, unless I missed that. Regardless, I don't think _all_ PP-trainers are doing that, and a lot of the ones that seem reputable (and all of the ones I've met that seemed trustworthy and knew what they were doing) do sport and personal protection, hence the reaction to the perceived blanket statement.

So I'm sure you are probably largely accurate and there are no doubt people out there that fit your profile, I'm just arguing for the exceptions which I believe are out there.

-Cheers


----------



## Drew Peirce

How bout the other sentence?

"Anyone who does bitework outside of a nationally recognized organization is contributing to dog ownership suicide"


I'm still trying to figure if I should laugh at that or be seriously disturbed by it...........


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen

Check this out. Not exactly what I was looking for, but the attorney ONLY does dog bite cases. 

http://www.dogbitelaw.com/PAGES/burglar.html

I was trying to find statistics about how many people get sued and how much they get.


----------



## Drew Peirce

I doubt you'll find it from that scheister


----------



## Dwyras Brown

What is a retired PSD that continues bite work training, but not used for patrol. When that dog is at home with his family, he is basically a PPD. I'm pretty sure they will bite if needed. These dogs aren't put to sleep when they retire, whether from old age or recoverable injury. Just something to think about. They are out there, and they will bite. Call them what you like, but that is what they are.


----------



## David Frost

Dwyras Brown said:


> What is a retired PSD that continues bite work training, but not used for patrol. .


An enourmous liability. If the department doesn't have a bullet proof waiver, when the dog retires, they are also liable. It's a deep pockets kind of thing.

DFrost


----------



## Dwyras Brown

Definitely a liability issue, but it happens. Without naming agencies or people, I'm sure you have heard of it happening. Even with some of the MWDs.


----------



## David Frost

Sure it happens. I'll name my own agency. It's still a tremendous liability.

DFrost


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## Dave Colborn

I had my last MWD partner until he died. The govt does a nice waiver that puts everything on you as the owner if anything happens. Not complaining. I am glad he got to live outside the walls for a while before he died. 


The also do a protocol to make sure that the dog won't bite with normal household stimulus.


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## Dwyras Brown

Some departments allow you to purchase the dog for a minimal fee and sign a waiver of liability. You get to purchase all the liability.


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## Kyle Sprag

I have had Two former PSDs, they were both obtained from a Vendor. The Vendor didn't seem to think much about it. He has been around for many many years.

Interesting Angle though, I am sure any slime ball Lawer could make something of it if something happened. :sad:


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## Dwyras Brown

Kyle, you're right and I can't figure out why Shaq O and Steven S would pay the money they did for the dogs they purchased. I'm sure they could have asked someone in the know on their respective departments, where they could buy a good dog for less than they paid.


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## Al Curbow

You're assuming they care about chump change (to them)


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## Dwyras Brown

I assumed they cared about looking like chumps, not the chump change.


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## David Frost

Dave Colborn said:


> I had my last MWD partner until he died. The govt does a nice waiver that puts everything on you as the owner if anything happens. Not complaining. I am glad he got to live outside the walls for a while before he died.
> 
> 
> The also do a protocol to make sure that the dog won't bite with normal household stimulus.


They (military) weren't as kind to our MWD partners in my era. Which is why I'm member of the Viet Nam Dog Handlers Association.

DFrost


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## Bob Scott

David Frost said:


> They (military) weren't as kind to our MWD partners in my era. Which is why I'm member of the Viet Nam Dog Handlers Association.
> 
> DFrost


I've seen that history on TV. Don't think I could watch it again! :evil:


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