# K9 Cops Show



## Mike Jones (Jan 22, 2009)

I hope this is the right place to post about the K9 Cops show http://animal.discovery.com/tv/k9-cops/. I'm new here so, please jump right in and let me know if I am doing something wrong. 

I just watched an episode of K9 Cops on Animal planet. That is a freakin awesome show. In fact for me it is one of the best animal shows on TV. I love the way the officers talk about how there canines are trained and then the camera's follow the officers and there canines on the job...WOW!! The episode I just watched involved a suspect that had just robbed a convenience store. He fled on foot with the cash register. The office and his K9 was called to track the suspects scent found on the dropped cash register. 

The shot the footage with a night vision camera, the suspect's scent was tracked into peoples homes, backyards and finally was caught in someone storm shelter. The officer let the dog loose after telling the suspect to come out and give up. That dog went in full force on his butt. The suspect was screaming and hollering and the officers went in and the dog was outed. It was some awesome teamwork:lol: . 

I have so much respect for our officers and their K9s. Does anyone know an of the officers on that show? Man it was awesome. What a great show to highlight our boys in blue and their K9 companions. If I was not happy with my current Career, I would join the force.

I guess you can tell that I am excited.


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## David Stucenski (Mar 29, 2008)

Great idea on the show but.............well I will hold my thoughts8-[ 8-[ . I will wait to see the responses from my fellow handlers. All I will say is how many times after watching COPS do people ask "Is this really how you guys act?" :-k Ahhhh Nope! TV COPS Love the 10 minute conversation after the arrest in the back seat of the cruiser. Why did you do it yada yada. Perfect hair and sunglasses. How about...Let get this guy out of here, I got 3hrs of paper work. Enough said[-(


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## todd pavlus (Apr 30, 2008)

http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f8/set-your-dvrs-tivos-8762/


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

I'm a fan we have a club member on the show 8)


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## Emilio Rodriguez (Jan 16, 2009)

I like cop shows, who doesn't. More so the K9 though I haven't seen it yet. But that part where they give the suspect a moral chastising after the apprehension turns my stomach.


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## Barrie Kirkland (Nov 6, 2007)

cause you dont do it in real life , the best cop shoes for a laugh are UK Road Wars or Street Wars as the cops always chuck in throwaway comments haha

In general i dont like watching them , as i dont really like watching my work, i like programmes on Tapestry & flower pressing


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## Michael Santana (Dec 31, 2007)

Not going to lie.... not a huge fan. I loved it at first, but as it went on, less and less. They're dogs are great at tracking, but, haven't shown me much more. I also get annoyed by the 10 min of how his K9 is so great and how good they work together... Mind you this is after a 10 min run around were the guy sent his dog and the suspect evaded it without getting bit (Cause the dog didn't seem to know what to do once it got there) and now the cop got a broken wrist for trying to Jackie Chan the dude. Much respect to all the Officers and their K9s , everywhere, but I cant sit there and watch some guy talk about himself for so long.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

I've talked some with one of the members of that department. His comments were pretty candid. He pointed out, rightfully so, some dogs are great, some dogs have problems, we see the real world as it happens. I like the show, but then I like cops too. I understand there is a lot of commentary etc that doesn't happen when the cameras aren't there. I guess I like COPS and Hot Pursuit etc, because I can sit back and enjoy it rather than worry about my racing hearth ha ha. K9 shows I try to enjoy, but if anyone is watching the show with me they get irritated at my constant kibbitzing.

DFrost


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## Mike Jones (Jan 22, 2009)

I am pretty new with watching and enjoying seeing K9's work. I get exciting easily. I am sure that once I understand what is required of a good working dog, I will have a better eye. I am going to keep on watching this show. Perhaps if they get good ratings, they will produce more protection working dog shows. I would love to see a show on protection dog sports. That would be awesome to see people training and trialling on the tube.


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## Michael Santana (Dec 31, 2007)

IMO, I think a show based on protection sports would be horrible. Although fun for us to watch, I can just imagine all the people out their that are not fully commited and intend on just "following the hottest trend". I can only imagine it ending horribly for alot of PPDs and Sport Dogs.


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## Emilio Rodriguez (Jan 16, 2009)

^^^ I agree. I was talking to someone recently who's aspirations are to make that kind of show happen. I think it's a bad idea.


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## Khoi Pham (Apr 17, 2006)

Michael Santana said:


> Not going to lie.... not a huge fan. I loved it at first, but as it went on, less and less. They're dogs are great at tracking, but, haven't shown me much more. I also get annoyed by the 10 min of how his K9 is so great and how good they work together... Mind you this is after a 10 min run around were the guy sent his dog and the suspect evaded it without getting bit (Cause the dog didn't seem to know what to do once it got there) and now the cop got a broken wrist for trying to Jackie Chan the dude. Much respect to all the Officers and their K9s , everywhere, but I cant sit there and watch some guy talk about himself for so long.


They should learn from the show, from the way the dog reacted, seems like they were all trained in chasing the bad guy, in this case, the bad guy ran into a dead end and so he ran back out, the dog probably never seen somebody running at him before and that is probably why he didn't bite, but even when the officer Jackie Chan the bad guy, and the guy was on the ground, the dog still wouldn't bite, I think it is a combination of weak dog and not enough training, but I like the show, some dogs are strong and excellent trackers.


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## David Stucenski (Mar 29, 2008)

Maybe I am a bit hastie to kick the show, they seem like a good bunch of guys and I am not knocking my fellow handlers at all... I set the DVR with high hopes. Maybe cause I am in the field, or live and dont want to watch it...Seems like setting up major liability. I dont need to see an episode played in a court room. I know I am from the far left northeast and this I can tell you would never happen up here. I just dont need tree hugging whack jobs(jury pool) watching this thinking that the dogs are out of control or too mean when it is far from the truth because they dont know what they are watching.They sit at home in thier birkenstocks and make judgements.=; Also I would rather the bad guy be wondering what the dog is made of and what it can do, not..."Oh I saw this on TV if I do this.......I can get away...etc."
I do see that they try to bring out the home life and demo aspect to show the softer side of K9, but I would rather keep the badguy guessing.....THIS IS ONLY MY OPINON.

I think these shows are out of control in general...COPS, K9 COPS, Speeders, now Homeland Security shows....Next it will be CIA all of our nation's secrets on TV.

Family and friends hate my comments during the shows as well.


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## Emilio Rodriguez (Jan 16, 2009)

David Stucenski said:


> Also I would rather the bad guy be wondering what the dog is made of and what it can do, not..."Oh I saw this on TV if I do this.......I can get away...etc."


I also wondered about this. One of the purposes of the show is a deterrent no? They should put on only bad ass dogs. In the end though bad guys go by instinct in a tense situation and I don't think seeing something on a TV show will change that. Although I remember one old episode of cops where this drunk guy in a black leather jacket had this little mal hanging off his arm for some time while just standing there.. not impressive.


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Mike,

Jim Nash from this forum is one of the handlers on that show. FYI


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

I like the show. A lot. 

Shows the handlers and their partners working together AND the fact that they see a training issue and admit it!! 

Not to mention all the great work that they do. 

"Shit Happens" and I am just thankful they are willing to put it out there for others to watch, enjoy and learn by......

Can't get anymore real than this show is IMHO.


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## Michael Santana (Dec 31, 2007)

Howard Knauf said:


> Mike,
> 
> Jim Nash from this forum is one of the handlers on that show. FYI


 
I am not trying to disrespect any of the officers, or anyone willing to serve. Exact oppisite I have nothing but the highest regards for them. I'm just not a huge fan from what I saw. Maybe it's gotten better since I stopped watching. 

At the same time I cannot back down, I saw a couple of things that I didn't like in their dogs. I will give them tracking, they're dogs knocked out some pretty mean tracks!


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I like all the cop shows from COPS, K9 COPS, First 48, Forensic Files, etc. 
As far as looking at mistakes or less then perfect work....well.....we're looking at reality not NCIS. Course I really like that one too. :grin: :wink:


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## Michael Santana (Dec 31, 2007)

NCIS is a good one :lol:


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## Dan Long (Jan 10, 2008)

Michael Santana said:


> Not going to lie.... not a huge fan. I loved it at first, but as it went on, less and less. They're dogs are great at tracking, but, haven't shown me much more. I also get annoyed by the 10 min of how his K9 is so great and how good they work together... Mind you this is after a 10 min run around were the guy sent his dog and the suspect evaded it without getting bit (Cause the dog didn't seem to know what to do once it got there) and now the cop got a broken wrist for trying to Jackie Chan the dude. Much respect to all the Officers and their K9s , everywhere, but I cant sit there and watch some guy talk about himself for so long.


Considering 90% of what these dogs do is track, I'd suppose that is a more important training item than actual bitework. How many deployments (deployment meaning, bringing the dog out of the car, not sending it on someone) of the dog result in a bite? How many tracks end in a bite? I bet the number isn't very high. The intimidation factor of the dog is usually enough to have the suspects give up.

In that episode, that cop screwed up by trying to Jackie Chan the kid. He could have hit him low and taken him out, or let the dog bring him down, as the dog was coming after him. I don't think it's unusual for a dog to miss, I've seen that a lot in training, but they aren't going to miss too many times before they get ahold of the suspect.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Dan Long said:


> Considering 90% of what these dogs do is track, I'd suppose that is a more important training item than actual bitework. How many deployments (deployment meaning, bringing the dog out of the car, not sending it on someone) of the dog result in a bite? .



The dogs primary purpose is one of detection. You can bet, any department that has any sense could give you their bite ratio. The ratio would be available individually, on each dog, and as a unit.

DFrost


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## jay lyda (Apr 10, 2006)

I like the show. Mainly because its geared toward us. You can find criticism in anything you watch, but seeing what the show is about I think its cool. I'd rather watch it then some of the other stuff on TV these days. There is a great idea behind the show and I hope that it gives some people that have no clue some curiosity.


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## Mo Earle (Mar 1, 2008)

_
"In that episode, that cop screwed up by trying to Jackie Chan the kid. He could have hit him low and taken him out, or let the dog bring him down, as the dog was coming after him. I don't think it's unusual for a dog to miss, I've seen that a lot in training, but they aren't going to miss too many times before they get ahold of the suspect."

_I saw this episode also, and I didn't think the dog was going to engage at all, and thankfully the bad guy didn't have a gun to shoot at the dog or handler-but I am sure good re-training or re-evaluation of the dog came out after the situation, keeping the handler safe in the future - and maybe after the handler changes dogs or re-trains with his dog, he won't need to rely on his own take down moves and more broken bones.
I like the show,I think it is good judgement that they are not just showing the bites-(our favorite parts), which would definately bring out the criticism, but it is smart that they are showing how the dogs are a big deterrent-this can only shine a positive light for those in charge of dollars thinking of liability. I also thank guys that are willing to have a camera man and crew follow them around-I imagine that is difficult for the handlers- they have to keep the safety of the camera guy on their mind also, in addition to every thing else they are trying to do.


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## Willaim Somers (Jan 17, 2009)

I haven't seen the show but I would if where on 1 of the 2 channels I get lol.It sounds very interesting, tracking is the main reason working dogs exist period. I have a good idea what it takes for urban tracking, heck I couldn't do it, and I would love to see some real tracking. just wanted to add Top Dogs is a show that does feature Ring Sport on a regular basis and does a nice job of it, along with agility and obedience trials.


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Michael Santana said:


> I am not trying to disrespect any of the officers, or anyone willing to serve. Exact oppisite I have nothing but the highest regards for them. I'm just not a huge fan from what I saw. Maybe it's gotten better since I stopped watching.
> 
> At the same time I cannot back down, I saw a couple of things that I didn't like in their dogs. I will give them tracking, they're dogs knocked out some pretty mean tracks!


 Hi Mike,

I was directing my post to the OP. Should have clarified.

Like its' been stated already...you can find fault in anything sitting in a recliner but the reality is that the dogs have one purpose and that's to locate and/or nuetralize a threat. We don't care how pretty it looks as long as the job gets done and we go home safe.

I will admit that i saw a couple things that I would change as well but, being as I don't work with these teams it would be unfair for me to armchair quarterback their performances. I'm sure the same could be said for how I worked my dogs. No-one's perfect and a positive end result is all that matters when hunting men. Just sayin..

Howard


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

When are we going to see some *REAL TV*? K-9 rolls to the front of the cruiser and slams down the officer's 16 ounce black coffe and then wolfs down a half dozen donuts. Yeah, handler then maces the dog, clotheslines him over the fence, and forces back the mornings goodies!!!!! #-o :lol: See real TV!!! :mrgreen: :twisted:


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

David Stucenski said:


> I know I am from the far left northeast and this I can tell you would never happen up here. I just dont need tree hugging whack jobs(jury pool) watching this thinking that the dogs are out of control or too mean when it is far from the truth because they dont know what they are watching.They sit at home in thier birkenstocks and make judgements.=;


Whoa buddie=; Don't knock those Birkenstocks 'till you've tried them...and huggin' trees is nice too 

I think I would really like the show, but since I am a tree hugging, Birkenstock wearin' whack job....I don't have cable ;-) 

On a more serious note, I can see how this stuff would be hard to watch if you were LE and I would not like to be judged by every wannabe PSD handler or worse by the general public that really has no idea.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

I never buy more than two donuts, I drink my coffee with cream and sugar. Does anyone carry mace anymore?

DFrost


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## Guest (Feb 5, 2009)

Key word "buy".

The worst is when the dept. hosts this one particular training class which lasts weeks. There's typically several left-over boxes left in the lunchroom for the night shift.

I become an absoloute swine. It's disgusting. I'll even hide the choice ones from my less punctual co-workers. Brings out the worst in me an all levels.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

ha ha, ok, "buy" might be a stretch ---- obtain may be a better word.

DFrost


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Hi folks , I haven't been on this site or many others for a long time . 

I'm glad to see that most on here tend to like it . Since this is a working dog site , I value these opinions the most . It was an honest potrayal of our unit . There were many things on there I didn't want shown but they wanted to show all the dogs and what we do . Right down to the boring stuff and mistakes . 

As for the K9 that didn't do too well where the Officer broke his arm . You're right that dog lacks in that area and his handler is aware of it . It does commit just not well . In the episode the badguy easily dodged the dog and Mike made a split second descision to stop the guy. Mike had his gun in his hands and the badguys hands were empty so he couldn't shot him . The suspect then got knockedout and that just added to the K9 apprehension looking uglier since the guy was a limp rag at that point . 

We got more criticism from that episode than any other and we saw it coming way before it aired. Unfortunately some saw that and painted our whole unit with a broad brush . We had a couple sport trainers volunteer to come and retrain our entire unit . 

That K9 is excellent at everything else . Tracking , building search , drug detection and evidence recovery . All those factors were looked at when desciding whether or not to use him on the street . Since his apprehension work was borderline . I wasn't for that K9 originally because of his apprehension work . But I have been proven wrong . The dog has found tons of badguys , drugs and evidence . 

As for how he was trained . When I was a trainer in the unit I worked alot with that dog. It was mostly muzzle work. Till I puked (literally). Since when he was new motionless subjects were very difficult for him . 

I also did lots of bitesuit work with him in all sorts of situations . Running away , RUNNING AT , on the ground and I personnally set up and scenerio where I attacked the dog pushed Mike out of the room and did a very , very lengthy battle with just the dog and I in the room bouncing of furniture tripping over objects thrown on the floor and even using some of the furniture against him . The dog stayed in the fight the whole time . We've done this type of work with this dog and others using several different decoys and situations . 

The dog never impressed me but he stayed in the fight . Never backed
down . I just could never get his commitment when initially going into the increase that much and his bite wasn't that great but it did the job and he stayed on with about a 3/4 bite .

As for some of the other dogs not knowing what to do when they found a guys I can tell you they did know what to do and that was to bite him but the Handler read the dog correctly and stopped the dog from going in and called the badguy out . The way they are supposed to .

I also hated all the added talking and fluffy crap but I found out the biggest segment of the viewers (regular citizens) loved it . I personnally don't know why.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Jim, you know how it is. It's always easy for us to criticize dogs we see, particularly when they aren't ours. ha ha. All in all, I think, and have said such, they did a good portrayal of your program. I doubt there are many programs that are willing to subject themselves to the scrutiny on all us police dog trainers, like your program did. I also doubt there are many programs that don't have a dog that, at some point will embarrass us. I've always felt dogs were masters at timing the embarrassing moments only when there is maximum publicity. Am glad to hear you say the handler recognized the situation and called the dog off. To me that means no bark and hold. ha ha.

DFrost


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Hey David , 

Guilty as charged . My girlfriend ( Ex St Paul Officer ) will refuse to watch the show or any cops show if I don't stop critiqueing stuff . I had a tough time keeping my mouth shut when hearing and seeing all the cheesey stuff on the show along with our guys giving multiple commands to their dogs that didn't need it and some of the tactics some of the guys used bugged me also . Your comments I always found fair and valid . Just tough hearing things about some of the dogs I know aren't true . 

No bark and hold here and I can tell you none of our dogs , even the new ones are confused about what they are supposed to do when they find someone . Bark if they can't get to them and apprehend if they can get to them . 

The dogs actually working a search was heavily editted . Many times they would show the dog just walking along then suddenly cut to them either apprehending the suspect or calling the suspect out of hiding . The dog working out human odor is beautiful and they showed very little of it .


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## Andy Larrimore (Jan 8, 2008)

I am a K9 handler and I personally like the show. It gives the public an idea of what our job duties include as well as the time we spend training. It also shows the average person how close we are with our 4 legged partners and that it's not just a dog to us. The better educated the public is about officers and their K9's the more likely they may be to help with donations to the K9 program. It may also make them more willing to allow us to use their buildings or property for training sometimes. Sure there are thing that I have observed that I liked or did not like but they deserve a lot of credit. How many of us have perfect dogs?


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Thanks Andy , overwhelmingly the response to the show has been positive and I hope it will help other K9 units in the future . Hopefully that will help us in the long run since we are now facing having 5 K9's cut from the unit due to a huge budget crisis our department and city is facing . 

Some feedback was negative but valid . The majority of the negative feedback was just plain silly . Based on heavily editted footage and mostly from people that weren't in the Police K9 field . 

Not sure if K9 Cops will be back . From what I have heard they are prone to making last minute descisions on shows . I know they have been looking at Las Vegas . I mentioned to them that Las Vegas and San Diego would be good departments to look at . They need departments they can follow almost 24/7 and departments that use their dogs alot . They rode with some departments they said didn't get their dogs out of the car enough .


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Hi Jim,

I watched all the shows. Even knowing what I know...I thought overall the dogs were pretty good. Every unit has a strong dog, and weak dog. Thats just the way it is. Your average citizen has no idea what they're looking at. The handler that got his arm broke...well, they're a team, and thats what partners are there for. 

Looking forward to seeing more of you here.

Howard


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## Matthew Grubb (Nov 16, 2007)

Jim… I’ve given you kudos before over the show. My only criticism was the lack of diversity when it came to the furry ones…. I want more Malinois at your department!! :mrgreen:


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## Drew Peirce (Nov 16, 2006)

It would be killer if they could get more agencies on board to do the show in other cities/states, the more the better.
Do you happen to know if the producers are working on that?


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Matt , Howard , 

You guys are always cool . I'm not against criticism . I actually expected more on the show . David's for example is very valid and it was on some very obvious stuff . I just bristle a little when folks make very specific statements about our training and dogs based on a heavily editted show . 

We've paid some pretty heavy dues in our K9 Unit losing an awesome handler , having others seriously hurt and losing some great K9's also . Overall we do a great job and have some very good dogs . Some not so great also . Even though like any other K9 Handler/Trainer , I disagree with some training issues overall I'm very proud of our training and the majority of the dogs we put out .

For the record , in response to some of the things I've read in this discussion and another one on this forum , we are about as close to Schutzund training as Schtz. is to Ringsport . I've been to a couple of Schtz. Clubs in the area and we are very different . We have 2 new handlers that came from 2 different clubs and they both stated how different the training is . We initially train the dog to take the right arm but we quickly move in to teaching the dog to take whatever is available if the right arm isn't . Some dogs prefer the arm some other areas . We do not believe that a dog that takes the leg is a weak dog we have some that prefer the leg . The other trainers and I have seen dogs that take (usually the ankle) that we can tell from further testing are weak and they take the ankle because it takes less commitment and is very easy to bail out and escape . We do not however believe every ankle biter is weak it's only those based on other things they have shown us , not a knee jerk reaction or all encompassing beleif. 

We train using all sorts of sleeves , muzzles , and bitesuits . We work hard on tracking but just as hard at manwork , building searches , detector work ,OB and evidence recovery . 

We train real-life scenerios , confidence building and some back to the basics when needed . We try to throw everything they may see on the street and then some . We train using gas , smoke , obstacles , distractions , gunfire , multiple suspects , etc. . We put as much presure on our dogs as possible and work hard to improve their confidence . 

We also don't have a cookie cutter way of training we have a general way of doing things that has been successful but we quickly adjust to each dogs individual characteristics . We have learned alot from other K9 trainers and don't feel we know it all . We are always learning . 

Drew , 

I've only heard rumors but I'm not sure they will even be having another show . I heard they tend to make their descisions at the last moment . They had some legal issues that were complicated by US and UK laws since it was produced in the UK . I think that's why the last 4 episodes were delayed and then later aired at a different timeslot and all aired in the same week . It was very popular and I heard they had a ton of sponsers(commercial support) but not sure if it was worth it to them . They can just as easily move on to something else just as cheap to make that will be less of a hassle .

I'm not sure filming in several different agencies is productive enough for them . They need to work 24/7 covering all the shifts and need an active department . I heard Las Vegas is a possiblity ( I'd like to see that they seem like a very good K9 Unit and I'm sure they have alot more stuff happening to film ). They have been to other departments and ruled them out .

Matt , 

About the Mal's . I got a feeling it's going to happen . I prefer Dutchies myself .


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## Phil Dodson (Apr 4, 2006)

> Some really great episodes Jim!! Your unit did us all proud!! Personally who cares if their Mali's or Sheps if they are performing the task at hand with sucess.

> Phil


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

"We do not however believe every ankle biter is weak it's only those based on other things they have shown us , not a knee jerk reaction or all encompassing beleif."

Who couldn't agree with that. I figure when they pass a law making it a requirement that all bad guys learn how to present the arm correctly, then I'll become concerned about where the dog bites. In my experience, real life situations, no matter how hard we try, rarely mimic what we do in training. If in actual situations the dog pursues, engages and holds, I'm a happy camper. Next will be a law specifying how the bad guy in real situation, will stop all movement when directed. Then I'll teach b/h as well. 

DFrost


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

Jim Nash said:


> Matt , Howard ,
> 
> We do not believe that a dog that takes the leg is a weak dog we have some that prefer the leg . The other trainers and I have seen dogs that take (usually the ankle) that we can tell from further testing are weak and they take the ankle because it takes less commitment and is very easy to bail out and escape . We do not however believe every ankle biter is weak it's only those based on other things they have shown us , not a knee jerk reaction or all encompassing beleif.





David Frost said:


> "We do not however believe every ankle biter is weak it's only those based on other things they have shown us , not a knee jerk reaction or all encompassing beleif."
> 
> Who couldn't agree with that. I figure when they pass a law making it a requirement that all bad guys learn how to present the arm correctly, then I'll become concerned about where the dog bites. In my experience, real life situations, no matter how hard we try, rarely mimic what we do in training. If in actual situations the dog pursues, engages and holds, I'm a happy camper. Next will be a law specifying how the bad guy in real situation, will stop all movement when directed. Then I'll teach b/h as well.
> 
> DFrost


jim, let me start off by saying that you are a credit to your unit and to all of us as a whole (PSD handlers). i give you a helluva lot of credit for how you've handled yourself in this thread. it takes a big person to look at criticism and not take it personally. lord knows i could use an ounce of that. well, maybe even a wee bit more. 

with that....i find your comments on leg dogs interesting. last year i went to the eden k9 conference in alameda county, california. your head trainer did a muzzle class and those were his exact words when looking at a dutchie i'm familiar with. the dog is primarily a leg dog, but will upstairs if needed. in the muzzle pursuit the dog took a leg and i heard mark (i think that's his name ficadente or something) say something similar to "a dog that bites the leg is generally a week dog". again, i know this dog and he is not a weak dog. his foundation work was just obviously one of the ring sports. 

i agree with you that those generalizations can be problematic. nobody likes to hear that they have a weak dog, especially when that isn't the case. needless to say, mark ruffled some feathers when he was here....


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Hi Tim,

We had a dog that always went to the wrist if he could. If he hit the elbow he immediately went to the wrist. I said the dog was weak. I was challenged by the handler to prove my statement. I told him that his dog blows anal glands at the sign of any pressure, plus he had a major slick floor issue. He would run if aggressively challenged in the building. The handler was in total denial.

In this case I believe I'm right. In your case it's a training issue if you know the dog is for sure strong. Maybe the trainer should have expanded his opinion, and reasons why he believed it.

Sorry about the hijack. Carry on.

Howard


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Tim ,

Thanks , but I will admit I have weak moments but I'm usually able to compose myself before typing . 

As for Mark I've known him for years and think he's one of the best trainers in the country and I've been around the country and met tons of trainers and handlers . I'm not a groupie that agrees with everything he says . I have had some VERY heated discussions with him in regards to all things K9.

Not having seen the dog I will not comment on that . But I've trained alot of dogs with him and I've learned alot from him. Our department trains anywhere from 10 to 30 Police K9's a year . All different breeds with different backgrounds . Schtz. , KNPV , etc . . I've also trained at K9 seminars with him involving dogs from all over the country with all sorts of backgrounds and training philosophies . 

Having trained with Mark I know he wouldn't base his judgement soley on seeing a K9 bite a leg . I have trained at an Eden seminar with him also and I know he doesn't go around telling handlers their dogs shouldn't be a Police K9 unless he really feels strongly about it and has seen enough of the dog to give a qualified opinion of it. He knows it is going to go over like a ton of sh*# and they are going to think he's a complete jerk .

Now we are all human and he could be wrong . Judging K9's at a seminar where we don't know how the dogs have been trained makes it difficult at times to asses their street worthiness . Is it bad training that has caused certain behavoir/s or brought down a solid dogs drive or does the dog just not have it genetically ? We as trainers at these seminars just don't know enough to tell many times and I know Mark feels the same way because we have talked about it . For Mark to have stuck his neck out like that I'm sure he saw other things that concerned him about that dog that pushed him hard enough to give his opinion . I know for a fact he doesn't enjoy doing that .

Phil , 

Thanks and you're right , but I REALLY like Dutchies and can't wait to see more of them around here .


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

one more question for you jim...

i noticed that on a few occasions when the program showed handlers using their dogs to clear cars, the handler's would typically go out about half way with the dog and then launch from there. this is how we start dogs on car clearances, but by the time the dog is proficient, we want to send the dog from cover (from the police car). was it just that young dogs were being shown or is that the way you guys always do it?


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Some do it from cover , others 1/2 , others on a long line . All should be moving up with cover officers and I don't remember seeing that much on the show . Pet peeve of mine but I 'm not perfect either in all my tactics on the show .

We train to do it from cover (the K9 squad or a squad) but with the large amount of times we do it , multiple agencies sometimes involved and hecticness of the scene (Officers in many locations sometimes) the K9 handlers adjust it to their dogs and surroundings .

I'll be gone for the weekend , son's hockey tournament . I'll try to check back when I return . 

Take Care .


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

My little Czech dog was great at clearing vehicles. The only bad thing was that if the car was clear he would go to tearing into the seats. Seen him rock a full sized Cadillac one night. Oops! Nice leather seats.


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

Howard Knauf said:


> My little Czech dog was great at clearing vehicles. The only bad thing was that if the car was clear he would go to tearing into the seats. Seen him rock a full sized Cadillac one night. Oops! Nice leather seats.


i had a handler tell me one time that their dog (or maybe another dog they knew. i don't know, getting old) would bite headrests on car clearances. tried to say he was biting because of human odor on the cushions. now i'm not saying my dog is above biting things needlessly ($2000 claim pending for destroyed dash on dope search), but biting because of human odor on the cushion? c'mon. that's just drive satisfaction/frustration at it's finest...


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Tim, I hear that crap all the time as well. Primarily, it's just poorly trained/controlled for that type of search. 

DFrost


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

The mistakes you make with the first dog. At least he would clear a car while I was behind cover. The other dogs in our unit always went after other cops. It was a no brainer which dog to send in those situations despite the occasional seat grab.


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## cory wendling (Dec 11, 2008)

Jim, on one episode i saw the other day one of the dogs was trained to located narcotics and firearms. I thought the narrator might have misspoke, but then they showed a firearm located during a vehicle search. Out of curiosity, was that correct? Ive never seen that before and would think that would cause problems between having an aggressive alert dog trained to located firearms and having a dog trained to alert on what, at least in Texas, is not illegal (having a firearm in a vehicle), but I dont know the laws up there of course.

Cory


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

1 of our dogs is working on that . It's a bomb detector . It's hitting on the gun powder one of the odors it's trained to alert to anyways as a bomb dog . I think it's a little silly myself . All our dogs are trained at article searching so if someone pitches a gun we should all be able to find it anyways . 

I used to laugh when some of our crossed trained bomb dogs would call us to do a search for drugs they thought a suspect might have thrown during a foot chase . I'd remind them that they were trained to find articles and are just as capable as I am at finding it . 

He did find a gun I missed once though . Handler error . I drove up on a suspect that just shot at his girlfriend . No gun on him . Did search with my dog came to a yard where a big Pitbull was barking at us . Bingo pulled me toward the dog(on other side of fence) and I redirected my dog away from it .

The other Handler showed up and searched an area I hadn't on his way back to his squad he passed through my area and his pulled him up to the gun which was right in front of where the Pit was barking . He slammed it to . Real nice find and I have a very good article search dog .

That's what I get for not trusting my dog .


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Sorry . I remember the episode now . The narator had it wrong . The Drug dog was doing a search for drugs and alerted to an area where a gun was . My guess is there was drug residue on the gun .


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

For those interested in the show there is a rumor that a new episode of K9 Cops will be airing on Friday April 17th at 6pm (MN time). The rumor actually states it's a new series with a new department.

I'm not sure if it's the start of an entirely different series or if it's the last episode that never aired from our department . 

Also , others might not know that the last 4 new episodes of K9 Cops actually aired when the reruns moved to the daily 6pm slot a couple of months ago not during the 9pm time slot that it originally started at . They got held up for awhile because of some stuff between our city and the show . 

Those 4 episodes will be airing again end of next week and the following week .

On a sad note a few weeks ago we lost K9 Cobra unexpectedly and this past Sunday we lost K9 Ranger to brain cancer. Both were featured on the show a few times . The will be greatly missed.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Jim Nash said:


> On a sad note a few weeks ago we lost K9 Cobra unexpectedly and this past Sunday we lost K9 Ranger to brain cancer. Both were featured on the show a few times . The will be greatly missed.


Nicole had mentioned this sorry to here.


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Condolences to the handlers, Jim.

Howard


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## jay lyda (Apr 10, 2006)

Sorry to hear that Jim.


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## Joshua Wilson (Feb 8, 2009)

Dan Long said:


> Considering 90% of what these dogs do is track, I'd suppose that is a more important training item than actual bitework. How many deployments (deployment meaning, bringing the dog out of the car, not sending it on someone) of the dog result in a bite? How many tracks end in a bite? I bet the number isn't very high. The intimidation factor of the dog is usually enough to have the suspects give up.
> 
> In that episode, that cop screwed up by trying to Jackie Chan the kid. He could have hit him low and taken him out, or let the dog bring him down, as the dog was coming after him. I don't think it's unusual for a dog to miss, I've seen that a lot in training, but they aren't going to miss too many times before they get ahold of the suspect.



The officer had a gun in his hand...a low take down would have been a bad idea. He kicked, because he wisely did not shoot the unarmed person. His hands were occupied, so he used what was available in a confined space.


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## Joshua Wilson (Feb 8, 2009)

I am a Border Patrol canine handler. My dog is a single purpose concealed persons/narcotics detection dog. I really like the show. ALL DOGS HAVE ISSUES. Handlers know this. I am sorry to hear about your units recent losses. I have a quick question. After a find, do your handlers reward with praise only? Do you ever reward with a toy and some play? I noticed that when one of your canines found the dope in the air vent, he did not palm out or bomb in a reward toy. I realize this may be a television editing issue. Keep up the good work.


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Thanks everyone . We appreciate the support .

Joshua,
It depends on the situation . During training it's usually the dog's favorite toy . Generally on a real find it's just praise . We do'nt want to be rewarding on the slim chance it's a false alert . Depends though .


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Jim Nash said:


> Thanks everyone . We appreciate the support .
> 
> Generally on a real find it's just praise . We do'nt want to be rewarding on the slim chance it's a false alert ..


I find the term; "non-productive response" is more descriptive. False alert is so absolute. It could be residual, it could have been there and you didn't find it. I do agree with not rewarding on an actual response though. After everyone is in custody, the dope is found, back-ups on scene etc, etc, the handler may allow the dog to go back to the vehicle, respond and given the primary reinforcement.

DFrost


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

David Frost said:


> I find the term; "non-productive response" is more descriptive. False alert is so absolute. It could be residual, it could have been there and you didn't find it. DFrost


Thanks David I was trying to figure out how to state that properly . Best I could think of at the time was "slim chance of a false alert" without having to type that much . Because many times we get a "non-productive response" and learn later the drugs had been there but remove just before the search or that the area had been most likely contaminated with drug residue from the suspects. That's a good term to use . Thanks.


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## Tina Rempel (Feb 13, 2008)

Jim Nash said:


> ...
> On a sad note a few weeks ago we lost K9 Cobra unexpectedly and this past Sunday we lost K9 Ranger to brain cancer. Both were featured on the show a few times . The will be greatly missed.


 
How sad. Condolences to the handlers and families.


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## Barrie Kirkland (Nov 6, 2007)

sorry to bump this , but i didnt want to start a new thread

I was asked a question by another handlers as to the origins of the GSD in the show, are they imnported and what is the pedigrees on some of the dogs ?

cheers

B


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Barrie ,

We have a dog brocker who goes over to Europe and gets them from all over . We got some from Holland , Russia and some other places I can't think of off hand . I just learned we have never got any from Germany though . Most come from the Czech Republic . 

Our head trainer doesn't keep the pedigrees on the dogs . I from time to time have got a look at some and many are Czech , DDR and West German working lines . 

I have my dogs pedigree and he's a mix of all three . Some of the names I've good things about were Fax (something or other) , a popular son or father of Fax(can't remember) , Gent OD Policia(sp?) and a few other names I can't remember . I was told it was a very strong pedigree .


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## Barrie Kirkland (Nov 6, 2007)

Hi Jim

thanks for that, that was the crux of our conversation we thought the dogs looked like czech and were debating if they were, our handlers enjoy the show

plus the breeding guy is toying with using czech lines within the programme

thanks Jim


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Contrary to popular opinion we do use Mals , Dutchies and crosses of all 3 also . We train for the 5 state area (Minnesota , Wisconsin , Iowa , North and South Dakota ) .

Certain Police Departments prefer certain breeds so we work with them . We've had a couple of Mals and crosses in our unit too . I think we will be using more and more of these breeds in the future within our department too . I'm partial to Dutchies myself but I'll take any dog that will do the job .


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## Barrie Kirkland (Nov 6, 2007)

are you from the same force Jim.... ?


Im with you on that one... fit for purpose in the first instance


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## Marina Schmidt (Jun 11, 2009)

Does anyone know if the show is already available on DVD or for download? I would like to watch the whole season (found only some snippets) but I live in Germany and don't receive Discovery.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Jim Nash said:


> Barrie ,
> 
> We have a dog brocker who goes over to Europe and gets them from all over . We got some from Holland , Russia and some other places I can't think of off hand . I just learned we have never got any from Germany though . Most come from the Czech Republic .
> 
> ...


I think Nicole got a peek or did some investigating on Chase's pedigree and said he is from Czech lines


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## Barrie Kirkland (Nov 6, 2007)

im nosey and like to have a wee peek now and then,


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Marine ,

I've heard some rumors about a DVD but we kinda parted on a bad note . Through lawyers , we(the K9 Unit got along great with them) . So I'm not sure what they are going to do .


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## steve davis (Mar 24, 2009)

Michael Santana said:


> Mind you this is after a 10 min run around were the guy sent his dog and the suspect evaded it without getting bit (Cause the dog didn't seem to know what to do once it got there) and now the cop got a broken wrist for trying to Jackie Chan the dude. Much respect to all the Officers and their K9s , everywhere, but I cant sit there and watch some guy talk about himself for so long.


 
haha i saw that episode a few months ago, i was thinking the same thing..the dog didnt seem to have a very good idea as to what was being asked...in my eyes the dog was more like "hey hey, i found him, i found him. where's my ball??"


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Originally posted by Jim Nash

" As for the K9 that didn't do too well where the Officer broke his arm . You're right that dog lacks in that area and his handler is aware of it . It does commit just not well . In the episode the badguy easily dodged the dog and Mike made a split second descision to stop the guy. Mike had his gun in his hands and the badguys hands were empty so he couldn't shot him . The suspect then got knockedout and that just added to the K9 apprehension looking uglier since the guy was a limp rag at that point . 

We got more criticism from that episode than any other and we saw it coming way before it aired. Unfortunately some saw that and painted our whole unit with a broad brush . We had a couple sport trainers volunteer to come and retrain our entire unit . 

That K9 is excellent at everything else . Tracking , building search , drug detection and evidence recovery . All those factors were looked at when desciding whether or not to use him on the street . Since his apprehension work was borderline . I wasn't for that K9 originally because of his apprehension work . But I have been proven wrong . The dog has found tons of badguys , drugs and evidence . 

As for how he was trained . When I was a trainer in the unit I worked alot with that dog. It was mostly muzzle work. Till I puked (literally). Since when he was new motionless subjects were very difficult for him . 

I also did lots of bitesuit work with him in all sorts of situations . Running away , RUNNING AT , on the ground and I personnally set up and scenerio where I attacked the dog pushed Mike out of the room and did a very , very lengthy battle with just the dog and I in the room bouncing of furniture tripping over objects thrown on the floor and even using some of the furniture against him . The dog stayed in the fight the whole time . We've done this type of work with this dog and others using several different decoys and situations . 

The dog never impressed me but he stayed in the fight . Never backed
down . I just could never get his commitment when initially going into the increase that much and his bite wasn't that great but it did the job and he stayed on with about a 3/4 bite . "


Reposted just in case some descide not to read the entire thread .


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## Marina Schmidt (Jun 11, 2009)

Jim Nash said:


> Marine ,
> 
> I've heard some rumors about a DVD but we kinda parted on a bad note . Through lawyers , we(the K9 Unit got along great with them) . So I'm not sure what they are going to do .


Thanks. I hope so.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

". We had a couple sport trainers volunteer to come and retrain our entire unit . ""

Oh yeah, there's what ya need. 

DFrost


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: Oh yeah, there's what ya need. 

Do tell, have you had some experience with this ?? Did it go badly ??


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: Oh yeah, there's what ya need.
> 
> Do tell, have you had some experience with this ?? Did it go badly ??


 Didn't go badly for us. They soon realized they were lost as last years Easter egg. I think they saw what "serious" really meant.

DFrost


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## Barrie Kirkland (Nov 6, 2007)

thats an honest overview Jim, and i totally know where you are coming from. It truely is a balance with police dogs, jack of all trades so to speak

I recall watching that episode and thinking "i know why he did that"

Alot of ppl outside the job focus on biting & handler defense and forget about tracking & searching... which really is your bread and butter

Folk just want to see landsharks.. but i have seen so many arse biters jump out of the van but couldnt track their backsides

bad guys by their very nature dont hang around to get bitten so, a dog that is a good tracker is worth its weight. So an all rounder is more important to me than a Civil monster

Unfortunately its not like sport where you own the dog and can wash it out immediately, there are proceedures & protocols which are outwith the handlers control


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

David Frost said:


> ". We had a couple sport trainers volunteer to come and retrain our entire unit . ""
> 
> Oh yeah, there's what ya need.
> 
> DFrost


We have through the years had several cops from different departments come out or have some private time with our club to shine there dogs up a but for there certs. or competitions.
We as a Schutzhund club have no interest in training street dogs or cop dogs but if a cop wants or needs a bit of advice or tweak in there dog before cert. or a competition we will prolly oblige after club training. It's been a few years now since any one has been out to get some work occasionally someone will come out and watch.
I think most of the departments have a better grasp of dog training now not so much cookie cutter as it used to be and better dogs for sure.


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Mike , I was out to your club a couple of times(Mike Ellis and regular trainng days) . Very nice people . 

A couple of guys took bites from my new dog at the time , just trying to learn some very basic decoy stuff . I think you only had 1 decoy at the time and were trying to get others involved . I've been to the St Croix Club to and watched some folks going for their BH's and 1 and 2 I think .


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

One of our decoys at the club is a policeman but not dog handler. His wife handles the Schutzhund dog.

I have a number of police dog handlers as colleagues in other clubs and have nothing but respect for them.

One had to go out to search for my colleague's son who had left a suicide note. He found him, shot through the head.

Another had to ruck out to search for a colleague who had not returned home. This was recent.

He found him, he had shot his young dog, and then himself. This was recent and we are all shocked about it.

The stories go on and on. 

On the whole, we profit from each other and there are no "real dog" versus "sport dog issues".


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

As for the Sport trainers we heard from . You had to hear them or read their e-mails . They were making comments about some proven very strong dogs along with going off about our "contraversial dog" .

They were talking out of their butts with very inflated egos . Based on short clips and no knowledge about the dogs or how we train . I was begging them to let them come . It would have been lots of fun . 

We got a alot of feedback on the show . The vast majority being good . But most of the negative stuff was funny . One lady kept calling all our dogs fat after seeing an epidode with one of our longhairs in it . She was convinced they were all going to fall over dead . 

One of our Handlers on the show (his K9 died this fall) got a nasty e-mail about how fat he was . This guy said our head trainer and I were the only Officers on the department in shape . We got some chunks but we also have ex-semi pro football players , an ex-University of Minnesota hockey player and ex-college wrestlers that can still run circles around most people . You should see the guys in the gym . The wrestlers got the weirdest workouts but I wouldn't want to meet them in a dark alley .


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Jim Nash said:


> Mike , I was out to your club a couple of times(Mike Ellis and regular trainng days) . Very nice people .
> 
> A couple of guys took bites from my new dog at the time , just trying to learn some very basic decoy stuff . I think you only had 1 decoy at the time and were trying to get others involved . I've been to the St Croix Club to and watched some folks going for their BH's and 1 and 2 I think .


I wish I could remember you  but cant as for the helper thing that is still a on going battle.
Our club is hosting the Regional this year and Lisa & Ron Geller have offered there place up in Harris as the site. If you have the day off come up for some Schutzhund and a burger
www.mvsv.org/2009_regional.htm


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## Barrie Kirkland (Nov 6, 2007)

man not the sport dog real dog arguement haha

police dogs are sport dogs in essence, put to a differnet task. In my branch the lines are all sport. A dog with the right drives , good nerve could do sport & but also be a police dog 

the big difference is in general alot of compulsion is placed on a sport dog to condition it to a routine, im a PD alot of motovation is used.

A sch dog would wilt on a operational track as it wouldnt "in general" be able to sustain the hunt drive required to track for such a long period of time

plus in general ground disturbance is more important to a Sch dog than human scent.

I am a member of s Sch club & am also a certified helper, i use sport to improve my PD & vice versa


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

I didn't want to start a debate . I was more commenting on screwballs who happen to be sport trainers and are speaking out their butts on things they know little about . It be like me going to a Schtz. or Ring club and saying I can train their dogs because my dogs' do it for "real" . I'd be laughed of the field . 

We all have something we can learn from one another but let's know our limitations too . 

As for what the Schtz. , PSD , complusion thing . I see the reverse here . At least from what I've seen . We use plenty of motivational training but not as much as I've seen in Sport clubs .


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Jim Nash said:


> As for what the Schtz. , PSD , complusion thing . I see the reverse here . At least from what I've seen . We use plenty of motivational training but not as much as I've seen in Sport clubs .


That is around here other places around the country even some of the clubs around here it's still hammer time. It's getting better around here happy to say.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Jim Nash said:


> I didn't want to start a debate .
> 
> We use plenty of motivational training but not as much as I've seen in Sport clubs .


Neither did I. My comment was more tongue-in-cheek, than anything else. Kind of along the lines of: we're from the government and we're here to help. 

I think it's high time we are no longer viewed as the standard bearer for the yank and crankers of the world. More than one person has been surprised at the motivational training we employ.

DFrost


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

David , I agree . I've got that "look" and "tone" from some sport folks . Had some pretty basic stuff explained to me like I was a neanderthal . I understand it and the past and many PSDs currently somewhat justify their beliefs . But it's still irritating . 

A big thing we have that's different is combining scent work , with apprehension work and control. 

We can debate this too I guess but I don't think sport has this combination to our degree . Most PSD trainers realize you don't get good scent work for a suspect by yanking and cranking on most dogs . It's a delicate balance .


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