# Teaching The OUT Too Early!!



## Jose' Abril (Dec 6, 2007)

Do you all think that teaching the OUT too early will interfere with a dog's drive to possess an object any less??

For example:
My dog is 5 months old and when we take walks he puts any and everything in his mouth including harmful things(like glass),so I would lift up on his leash and say OUT until he would let whatever it was out of his mouth.Now you just simply say OUT and he quickly drops whatever he has in his mouth.But yesterday at training my decoy and I noticed that whenever he slipped the sleeve,we would let him win and run in a big circle but some times when we approach the decoy he would spit it out.I must say though that when he spits it out he would stand over it and bark at the decoy.So could this be his way of possessing the object??My decoy said that he would like to see him hold the object and OUT him by lifting him off the ground until he spits it out.

So do you think I made an error in teaching this OUT command too early,if so is it too late to fix??


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

What I find is that dogs who have learnt the out too early or with too much early emphasis on the out, tend to resort to letting go anytime they face a situation where they're not sure of what else they're supposed to do. I would rather have the problem that the dog doesn't want to let go, than have the problem that the dog lets go when he's not supposed to.

Depends on the dog ofcourse.


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## Ian Forbes (Oct 13, 2006)

Jose,

Different people have different views on this and as Mike says, it often depends on the dog. My view is that if the dog is clear in the head and knows what is expected, there is no reason why a solid out can not be taught early.

I went through the same issue with my bitch. She was happy to hold/carry a tug or bite roll when I did grip work with her. When the helper was introduced she would carry the tug/bite pillow around in a circle until the helper approached again. We fixed this by letting the helper 'play' more with her so that she would actively take the tug/pillow back to the helper to restart the action.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Mike Schoonbrood said:


> What I find is that dogs who have learnt the out too early or with too much early emphasis on the out, tend to resort to letting go anytime they face a situation where they're not sure of what else they're supposed to do. I would rather have the problem that the dog doesn't want to let go, than have the problem that the dog lets go when he's not supposed to.
> 
> Depends on the dog ofcourse.


Like Mike said, I would rather have one hold on to something than pop-off under a slight bit of pressure. We let 5 month olds hold on to the sleeve for as long as they like. Early conflict builds problems done the road. [-(


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## Jose' Abril (Dec 6, 2007)

Let me re-word this,when he drops it which is not often,he immediately guards the object that he spit out,as if he's daring you to touch it or pick it up!!


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

So basically your decoy wants to teach him what you have already taught him, using the method you used to teach it already  

Are the dogs grips solid/calm on the sleeve? Does he go into "overdrive" when working and need to carry to give him a chance to calm down? If not, then personally I wouldn't worry about it. I don't see the need for my dogs to carry around and around and around and around if I'm not trying to settle the dog/grip. If they want to spit it out and refocus on the helper I'm cool with that. If you want him to continue to hold the sleeve, there are ways to do this by keeping it slightly active while he's carrying it (use a long line or leash on the sleeve, occasional tugs), by having the decoy focus more on the sleeve as the item of interest (don't try to reanimate the dog with whip, posture, etc but come in and be 'sneaky' about trying to steal the sleeve, so the dog wants to keep it). 

You taught him the out for safety issues, it sounds like it was needed on a regular basis. Personally I'd rather deal with the "fallout" (not convinced it is negative fallout though) in training from this, then the pup grabbing a piece of glass and refusing to let go, cutting the crap out of it's mouth or even worse swallowing it.


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## Darryl Richey (Jul 3, 2006)

I believe if the dog shows good drive and biting behavior you can then teach an out inducively and not have any problems. If done correctly it can even build drive for the work and the imprinting becomes very strong. The thing is I want to make sure the drive and proper biting foundation is there first, and then I can start to mold my other behaviors from there with no biting issues or hesitance.
Darryl


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

I would not use the "out" command outside of training, I would use "leave it" "off" or something like that. To me "Out" means let go of something I told you you could have or bite.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Jose' Abril said:


> Let me re-word this,when he drops it which is not often,he immediately guards the object that he spit out,as if he's daring you to touch it or pick it up!!


Two thoughts: He could be doing an early object guard, he could be saying stay away I don't want to fight. My reasons for the last one; we have a GSD in our group that growls in a nasty tone while on the sleeve. He is really saying that he doesn't want us to touch it so he doesn't have to fight with the decoy. Bites the sleeve in prey and as if he was going to break his teeth on a marshmellow.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Kyle Sprag said:


> I would not use the "out" command outside of training, I would use "leave it" "off" or something like that. To me "Out" means let go of something I told you you could have or bite.


Kyle excellent point!


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## Jose' Abril (Dec 6, 2007)

Howard Gaines III said:


> Two thoughts: He could be doing an early object guard, he could be saying stay away I don't want to fight. My reasons for the last one; we have a GSD in our group that growls in a nasty tone while on the sleeve. He is really saying that he doesn't want us to touch it so he doesn't have to fight with the decoy. Bites the sleeve in prey and as if he was going to break his teeth on a marshmellow.


I would say early object guard because this dog loves to fight all day and any day.He is very calm with full grips and is enviromentally sound.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Good point Kyle, I actually teach my dogs "ick" as a general "don't touch that" or "now that you have touched it, spit it out" command. Out is reserved for letting go of something they were supposed to have in their mouth.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Jose' Abril said:


> I would say early object guard because this dog loves to fight all day and any day.He is very calm with full grips and is enviromentally sound.


Jose' another thing we do in training is on the last bite with the puppy, have the decoy pump him up...wanting the last bite in the worst way. Then let the puppy chase the decoy off the field waving the sleeve as they are being chased away. Put the animal up without a bite! \\/


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## Darryl Richey (Jul 3, 2006)

Stupid me apparently didn't read all the posts towards what the subject was really about.

Darryl


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## Mike charatin (Apr 9, 2008)

Hello, there are many things to look at here first in my opinion the dog is never to young to teach it to out becouse of above stated reasons glass,poisen exc. to me out means drop it. I use leave it for other situations like dog is sniffing grass on a down stay or postures up to another dog exc. The next is a bit confusing to me I have worked with many decoys in schutzhund and they are all about the carry. There are diffrent ways to calm a dog on the bite such as stroking the dogs head while on the bite,and rewarding the dog by not staring at him. If the dog is properly balanced between civil and prey work the dog will be more confident the bites will be fuller and the confidence creates calmness on the bite.NO PREY MONSTERS balancing the dog is the key for what ever sport or personal protection bitework you are doing. So in short make sure your helper is capable of balancing your dogs drives and calming the dog on the bite and dont worry so much about running in circles it only makes you dizzy. Thanks I hope this helps.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

For me, out is out. It is just a command, and a stupid balancing act like everything else. If you do it right, it doesn't matter when you teach it. Balancing the command so that the dog doesn't get too lax and not out, or too eager to let go is the deal.


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## Dan Long (Jan 10, 2008)

Teach a separate command like "leave it". We use leave it for just about anything. Don't smell that dog crap. Don't bother the cat. Don't look at that other dog across the street. Don't touch that food I just dropped. 

That way it doesn't interfere with your other training and the dog will understand that when you say leave it, he isn't to pick up glass or sticks or rocks.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I'll use one of Mike's phrases and say "It depends on the dog". 
My older GSD was/is a natural retriever. He would automatically out anything he brought to me without command. I put the command in there (early) to let him know I wanted it put in my hand if the game was to continue. Worked great. My younger GSD doesn't retrieve naturally and doesn't want to let go if there is ANY resistance on the tug. I stop any resistance and, as Kyle conmmented, I use a "leave it" command till his training is further along.


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

Sounds like you got lots of good advice. Don't worry too much about ruining your puppy for life. I did the same thing, because my litte a hole always had something he wasn't suppossed to have in his mouth. We went through the same thing you are describing, spitting the sleeve and eyeing the decoy. Again my dog is carrying the jacket off the field and will keep it as long as I let him. I have to out him eventually to crate him. We have walked in circles for ever and he has peed still holding.


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## Will Kline (Jan 10, 2008)

Kyle Sprag said:


> I would not use the "out" command outside of training, I would use "leave it" "off" or something like that. To me "Out" means let go of something I told you you could have or bite.


That's exactly what I taught my dog! :mrgreen: When we are out walking around in the woods or through the neighborhood and he grabs something I tell him to "drop" the item. If I see him eyeing an object which I dont want him to grab I tell him to "leave it". Usually the DROP command is followed by the LEAVE IT command because he thinks that after he drops it then it's ok to grab it back up! [-( 

On the training field I use the "OUT" command as this will denote a working command and not a social demand. :mrgreen:


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## Kris Finison (Nov 26, 2007)

I also agree with using a different command while working vs. everyday casual situations:

Aus!/Out! are for working when the dog is to let go of something it had but will be allowed to have again at some point.

Pfooey!/Leave it!/Drop! are for everyday when there is something that they are NOT to have *AT ALL* nor will they be allowed to have it.


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