# Possible scratch pants?



## Karen Havins (Apr 22, 2012)

In talking to a military friend, we were discussing clothing and long story short, he told me about pants, 
Tactical 5.11 that are used and supposed to protect you from knife wounds. 

Does anyone know of them and could they safely be used for scratch pants if they are supposed to stop a blade?


----------



## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Do you have a link?


----------



## jim stevens (Jan 30, 2012)

I have never heard of such a thing, the website is 511tactical.com doesn't show anything.


----------



## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

A pair of Carhartt style overalls are what we use. I don't think you can use them for a trial, but work just fine for training.


----------



## shawn murace (Feb 20, 2007)

I've heard of Carrharts. I have a pair of the tacticals but never tried them as scratch pants. I don't think they would prevent scratches. They're pretty light but I'm thinking if jeans won't do the trick then I doubt the tacticals will.


----------



## Bart Karmich (Jul 16, 2010)

I think for a trial it depends on what the rules and judge accept. For training it depends on what dogs you are training and whether they are scratching or biting and how much. Carharts are a heavy cotton duck canvas and they should be enough for regular training with anything but really dirty dogs. They won't last near as long as a pair of Schweikerts but they're much less expensive. If you want to try catching a few trained dogs, I would get some Carharts and a cup. If you're committed to helper work, then get some Schweikert scratch pants. I like a leg dog, so suit pants are a good option too but with the Schweikert pants you can put a Belgian sleeve over them.


----------



## Karen Havins (Apr 22, 2012)

Oh no, not for trial, for me at home. 
My friend told me you have to get the ones that are specifically designed to prevent stabbings...or at least try lol. 
They are for claws only for me...when we are playing with the tugs or bite builders.


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

My son wears the tactical 511s when he goes back packing. Lots of pockets. They will probably help you get through a briar patch because of double layers from the knees down and some sort of teflon coating.
Stop a knife attack...Not even close!


----------



## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Karen Havins said:


> Oh no, not for trial, for me at home.
> My friend told me you have to get the ones that are specifically designed to prevent stabbings...or at least try lol.
> They are for claws only for me...when we are playing with the tugs or bite builders.


Get a pair of these and just cut the carpenter loop on the side so the dog's foot doesn't get caught. They aren't too much hotter than jeans, they can go in the wash, and they have them on sale frequently on this site:

http://www.sierratradingpost.com/ca...0410/?filterString=s~carhartt/&colorFamily=27

Or get a Dremel and grind your dog's nails and don't let them put their paws all over you when they are tugging. ;-)


----------



## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

I think your buddy is messing with you. I never seen 5.11s that could stop a plastic butter knife? You need to get into some pretty serious stuff for blade protection. There are some lighter Kevlar type products out there for cut/ slice protection, never seen them in 5.11. And that ice pick stab type of protection is pretty thick and expensive. 
Carhart type stuff is pretty good. Also take a look at Filson “tin cloth brush pants” or “oil finish double tin”. The brush pants http://www.filson.com/products/tin-cloth-brush-pants.14026.html?fromCat=true&fvalsProduct=mens/pants-shorts&fmetaProduct=1011 should be all you need and they do breathe better than the ones made from total tin cloth http://www.filson.com/products/oil-finish-double-tin-pants.14004.html?fromCat=true&fvalsProduct=mens/pants-shorts&fmetaProduct=1011 
There old school material and don’t breath very well in the warmer weather, great when cooler. The best things ever in thorn bush. Really do a pretty good job as little extra dog protection. Not cheap but will last forever. Last I looked still all American material and all made in America. It’s like buying a bit of history. Never have to wash them, just hit them with a hose. 
The tin cloth jackets are good stuff to. 
You can also google… 1000d cordura or 500d cordura paints. You will mostly find the 500d, likely as motorcycle or tactical military type paints. You’ll never wear them out but I like the Filson better. 
1000d paints are pretty hard to find.. try goggling chainsaw paints? There some out there that are 1000d, Kevlar and lined with steel wires. But there is also some pretty light ones. 
Man that was more than you asked for


----------



## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

I think your buddy is messing with you. I never seen 5.11s that could stop a plastic butter knife? You need to get into some pretty serious stuff for blade protection. There are some lighter Kevlar type products out there for cut/ slice protection, never seen them in 5.11? And that ice pick stab type (not cut) of protection is pretty thick and expensive. 
Carhart type stuff is pretty good. Also take a look at Filson “tin cloth brush pants” or “oil finish double tin”. The brush pants http://www.filson.com/products/tin-cloth-brush-pants.14026.html?fromCat=true&fvalsProduct=mens/pants-shorts&fmetaProduct=1011 should be all you need and they do breathe better than the ones made from total tin cloth http://www.filson.com/products/oil-finish-double-tin-pants.14004.html?fromCat=true&fvalsProduct=mens/pants-shorts&fmetaProduct=1011 
There old school material and don’t breath very well in the warmer weather, great when cooler. The best things ever in thorn bush. Really do a pretty good job as little extra dog protection. Not cheap but will last forever. Last I looked still all American material and all made in America. It’s like buying a bit of history. Never have to wash them, just hit them with a hose. 
The tin cloth jackets are good stuff to. 
You can also google… 1000d cordura or 500d cordura paints. You will mostly find the 500d, likely as motorcycle or tactical military type paints. You’ll never wear them out but I like the Filson better. 
1000d paints are pretty hard to find.. try goggling chainsaw paints? There some out there that are 1000d, Kevlar and lined with steel wires. But there is also some pretty light ones. 
Man that was more than you asked for.


----------



## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

Karen
your military friend isn't too savvy about 5.11 gear

assuming u were talking about scratching.....
i have no idea what type dogs and what type work you are doing but regardless of either, the advice from Maren about getting the claws trimmed short (and smoothed) should be your first line of scratch defense 
..... especially if it's your dog you're working 

... but i have been known to bitch at other owner's dogs if it's obvious they don't care about trimming them down.....i will break the ice by asking them if they think those claws help it run any faster, or something similarly sarcastic 
...one of my pet peeves; along with canine buffalo breath ;-(

a well trimmed dog could hardly scratch thru a good pair of levis, and of course the other brands mentioned will wear even longer
... teeth are another issue entirely


----------



## Karen Havins (Apr 22, 2012)

I should probably be more clear, chalk it down to 6 kids in the house this week. Clearly I need my head examined. 

They aren't sharp claws, he's a large bulldog so they are quite thick and he tends to come at me like a train when we play and then try and use my legs push off of to get the toy. 
This isn't for any hardcore training, he learned his 'out' this way however and I taught him to bark on command this way. 

With is size, he's done some impressive damage to my legs a couple times if he gets too rowdy, which, I allow during our hardcore playtime tug o war sessions. Since it's the kind of play he loves. 

Won't hurt with the baby either to be honest...

Thank you so much for the suggestions, I think one of those should work just fine!


----------



## Karen Havins (Apr 22, 2012)

hehe, 
Are you all SURE some cute black military pants won't work better though?
Those pants that are linked aren't going to be exactly....flattering....


----------



## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

cool...sounds like you're heading towards the pants solution

with that said...
- don't have to be "sharp" to scratch 
- as you probably already know, if they make noise on a smooth floor they can/should probably be trimmed much shorter and smoothed off.
- BIG nails that are trimmed with a clean sharp cutter but not smoothed around the edges can REALLY scratch no matter how long/short they are...

specially for a house dog that's around kids 
........ ymmv


----------



## Karen Havins (Apr 22, 2012)

His nails are kept short all on his own most of the time, but down to the quick and rounded off with a dremel. He does the weight pull for the Triathlon portion of IronDog and we train WP at home and use an A frame. Nails are a disaster if long. 

HE is a gentleman around the kids...but the nasty little honey badger pup? 

...is not. 

It's the bruising that I am trying to end! Although..he's definitely drawn blood..but the wound was about a third of an inch wide. OUCH!

Two sounds I can't stand a dog to make...nails on the floor and licking their own balls...lol


----------



## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

http://www.agvsport.com/Kevlar-Lined-Pants-Tops/Excursion/Excursion.php


----------



## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

sorry; i read scratch pants and was thinking scratches

anyway, some people just bruise more easily than others ... but i don't see how getting pants that are abrasion resistant would prevent bruising

... in that case i think you would need padding to absorb the impact, like shin guards soccer players use, or pants with that lightweight foam armor that fits in pockets that the motocross riders wear .. that would do a lot more to prevent bruising

or teach the offender that action isn't acceptable; then u could wear daisy dukes 
...whatever they are //lol//


----------



## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Karen Havins said:


> They aren't sharp claws, he's a large bulldog so they are quite thick and he tends to come at me like a train when we play and then try and use my legs push off of to get the toy.
> This isn't for any hardcore training, he learned his 'out' this way however and I taught him to bark on command this way.
> 
> With is size, he's done some impressive damage to my legs a couple times if he gets too rowdy, which, I allow during our hardcore playtime tug o war sessions. Since it's the kind of play he loves.


This seems to be more of a training issue than an equipment issue...


----------



## Karen Havins (Apr 22, 2012)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> This seems to be more of a training issue than an equipment issue...


Again, this isn't for training but for our play sessions, he's allowed much more breathing room when we are just getting down and dirty. 
We just tossed the 'out' training in there during playtime. I went a long time with no trainer. But...for this, he's loose with me in a field playing..he's just a rough boy. 
I wish I had gotten video today...he went through my trainers brand new Demanet training suit on the first bite, but what he does is plant his front foot when he fights...wish I could make it make sense...I'll get a video of it. 
It's possible he's not supposed to do that at all...but I'm new lol


----------



## Karen Havins (Apr 22, 2012)

will fernandez said:


> http://www.agvsport.com/Kevlar-Lined-Pants-Tops/Excursion/Excursion.php



Now THOSE I like...and not bad in Black either!!!

Thank you!


----------



## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Karen Havins said:


> Again, this isn't for training but for our play sessions, he's allowed much more breathing room when we are just getting down and dirty.
> We just tossed the 'out' training in there during playtime. I went a long time with no trainer. But...for this, he's loose with me in a field playing..he's just a rough boy.
> I wish I had gotten video today...he went through my trainers brand new Demanet training suit on the first bite, but what he does is plant his front foot when he fights...wish I could make it make sense...I'll get a video of it.
> It's possible he's not supposed to do that at all...but I'm new lol


No, I mean if he's actually hurting you, which is sounds like he is, you need to put some boundaries on how you are allowing him to play so it is not a free for all. I think I know what you mean, cause you will see most helpers or decoys use the stick and tap on the dog's feet if they plant their feet on them to try to push off. So for him, only let him play tug when all four feet are on the ground.


----------



## Karen Havins (Apr 22, 2012)

but but but...we likes it....!

All right, but YOU come tell him...


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> No, I mean if he's actually hurting you, which is sounds like he is, *you need to put some boundaries on how you are allowing him to play* so it is not a free for all. I think I know what you mean, *cause you will see most helpers or decoys use the stick and tap on the dog's feet if they plant their feet on them to try to push off.* So for him, only let him play tug when all four feet are on the ground.


scratches bruises and punches are part of the deal...period...dont like it, get out of the way, or dont do longer bites.

so you are suggesting to tone down tug play by setting boundaries and not allowing the dog put its feet on you? how do you do that? I think that was more a matter of technique on the persons part, to try to minimize it, not really setting a boundary on the dog itself.

lots and lots of dogs strike feet first and most all will brace with the feet to slow down, you dont actually see it in SCH that often cause the dogs are spun and set down, and many others will brace or even grab the decoys with their paws.. I have never seen a person try to discourage this on purpose, I have see decoys try to avoid it.

there are 10's of thousands of videos on youtube of dogs biting decoys and helpers. outside of cleaning up a bark and hold, can you share any videos of decoys tapping dogs feet while striking, biting, or fighting?


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

if a decoy is tapping the dogs feet off of him? what is the purpose? other than to avoid scratches due to wrong clothing, or being a pussy?, besides maybe keeping the hanging grip for SCH if the dog might move the grip...

I really dont know, seriously asking...anyone?


----------



## Karen Havins (Apr 22, 2012)

I can't help you!
He's my first dog, so mistakes are made along the way, but I can't see why the feet up there are a problem to be honest, other than the fact that at 115 pounds that it doesn't feel that great...hence, wanting some protection for the leggies. 
Good, bad or indifferent, when Tauren bites, he tries to pull the arm off afterwards and looks for purchase on whatever he can get his big feet on. 

He also does it when we play, and I have never had a dog where I can literally tug, throw or manhandle with all my strength and I enjoy it as does he. I would actually be a bit sad if I was told I shouldn't.


----------



## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Joby Becker said:


> scratches bruises and punches are part of the deal...period...dont like it, get out of the way, or dont do longer bites.
> 
> so you are suggesting to tone down tug play by setting boundaries and not allowing the dog put its feet on you? how do you do that? I think that was more a matter of technique on the persons part, to try to minimize it, not really setting a boundary on the dog itself.


Not toning down the game, just not allowing the dog to put her feet on her. Basically, don't keep the tug up high once the dog is on the tug so they have all four on the ground and if they put any feet on you, the game stops. Not really that difficult, but she may need someone to show her if she's not used to it. In fact, video tape of her playing tug would probably be useful.

Karen, can you upload any video of you playing tug? 



> lots and lots of dogs strike feet first and most all will brace with the feet to slow down, you dont actually see it in SCH that often cause the dogs are spun and set down, and many others will brace or even grab the decoys with their paws.. I have never seen a person try to discourage this on purpose, I have see decoys try to avoid it.
> 
> there are 10's of thousands of videos on youtube of dogs biting decoys and helpers. outside of cleaning up a bark and hold, can you share any videos of decoys tapping dogs feet while striking, biting, or fighting?



I don't think I've seen a properly targeting dog strike feet first. I'm envisioning something like a mountain lion leaping and I am just not seeing it mentally in my head. I guess I'd have to see a lot of really slow motion video. I've also seen multiple folks (Sch helpers especially) either tap or slide the stick under a dog's feet so they don't get to brace against them and pull backwards. Probably to prevent the dog from air humping? When a dog is wrapping a decoy in a suit and pushing in and not pulling back, that's a little different. 

Either way, she's playing tug, not decoying her own dog. No reason she should have to get special pants to play with her dog. JMO!


----------



## Bart Karmich (Jul 16, 2010)

Karen Havins said:


> Now THOSE I like...and not bad in Black either!!!
> 
> Thank you!


 
Those are motorcycle pants. They're lined with Kevlar inside to try to prevent road rash if you fall off. They're not designed to survive abrasion, but just for one-time-use to save your skin. The outer fabric will not stand up to dog scratching. It's just cotton twill. The inner kevlar panels are only on the knees and seat where you'd hit the pavement, not on your lap where the dog will scratch.


----------



## Karen Havins (Apr 22, 2012)

Then I'll bedazzle the front!


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> *I don't think I've seen a properly targeting dog strike feet first.* I'm envisioning something like a mountain lion leaping and I am just not seeing it mentally in my head. I guess I'd have to see a lot of really slow motion video. I've also seen multiple folks (Sch helpers especially) either tap or slide the stick under a dog's feet so they don't get to brace against them and pull backwards. Probably to prevent the dog from air humping? When a dog is wrapping a decoy in a suit and pushing in and not pulling back, that's a little different.
> 
> Either way, she's playing tug, not decoying her own dog. No reason she should have to get special pants to play with her dog. JMO!


Maren, so you are advocating and recommending that the dog be taught not to put its feet on her, to modify his behavior, on purpose, during tugwork, and rough play (getting down and dirty as she puts it) and bite builder work? 

Lets not parse and mix my words around. ok... I said lots of dogs strike feet first, and will use thier feet to brace an impact. (either right before, simultaneously or immediately after mouth impact)

you told this girl that MOST helpers and decoys will try to keep the dogs feet of them, so you not only were talking about her playing with her dog, but also applying your theory in regards to what decoys and helpers do, even saying MOST.. like I said can you please show me a video, I can show you 1000's of videos of dogs, that put their feet on the helper/decoy, in every sport, and type of bitework imaginable, and the helpers and decoys are not discouraging it...where do you get MOST from? 

Did you ever ask the "several" schutzhund helpers (far from most helpers, let alone helpers and Decoys), why they were doing that, I doubt it was to teach the dog manners about putting their feet on the helper. It was most likely to keep the dogs weight on the grip, or to avoid being scratched themselves for whatever personal reasons.

you said:*This seems to be more of a training issue than an equipment issue...*

The point is there is no issue, you are the only person that thinks there is an issue, training or otherwise, she was not asking how to modify what she does, and certainly not looking to change her dogs behavior. she simply is asking how to minimize damage to herself, doing what she does. very simply done, get some padded pants, *or* hold tug low, do not let dog come up..*or* hold tug way off to the side if presented high, and set him down real quick...end of problem, no modification of dog involved. 

instead of her posting a video of her tug work, which you think should be changed somehow by modifying the dogs behavior, take a video of you playing tug with your dog, to show how you are modifying the dogs playing behavior...then put dog in a platz 5-10-12-20(whatever) feet away from you, and pop tug up into the PERFECT target, high on your chest in the center and let him come and bite it.the should show how your manners training for your dog to keep his feet off of you works in a video, make one for this, show her and others how to do it. You are a behavioral consultant that works to change dog behavior....show it.

Show us the results of him having learned the boundaries and not putting his feet on you when allowed to strike a tug or sleeve, high center from a short or long distance. I think you will learn something when attempting to show this on a video, you will learn that the dog will hit you with his paws...when your dog does it, will it be a training problem?

never seen it, does not make it wrong Maren, I am not lying or mistaken, dont need a high speed camera, just work some dogs...proper targeted dog, not sure what you mean by that either...

Do you think this dog is targeting properly?




























or this one, Ibrick (NVBK). Is he targeting correctly in your opinion?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_XswhqKJ5ls&list=UUca-lnjaUx8P5_buAc6qgcA&index=3&feature=plcp

here is still shot before strike, notice dogs paws in relation to his mouth.


----------



## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Joby

The first picture looks like the sleeve presentation is off (bite bar too high)
The second it's hard to tell from the angle but based on the way the head is turned probably getting jammed and/or bad targeting
The third picture looks like good targeting and good sleeve presentation. I'd like to see before and after the moment the picture was snapped.


----------



## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

TL;DR as usual, Joby. Not in the mood to go line by line Lou Castle style tonight. 

We all know you get your kicks having your dog hump you and bite your phone book covered arm, so it probably did not occur to you that not everybody likes getting totally manhandled by their dog playing tug. I play tug in the Balabanov/Ellis style which works great, so I have zero reason to have my 72 lbs dog slam into me or put his feet up on me so he can brace and pull, let alone a 115 lbs one. If Karen's happy putting up with "impressive damage" to her legs, uh...okay, I guess...but why mess with getting tactical pants when you could just teach them otherwise?


----------



## Karen Havins (Apr 22, 2012)

I guess my issue here is that I never realized there was a problem with my boy using his feet on me. 
I put myself out there to seriously rough house with him...and he's never hit me (on the bite builder or tug) without some serious pressure from his front end. It's never once occurred to me that this is wrong behavior because in all the dogs I have seen work, I have only seen a couple that tuck their legs back in flight before biting. None of those dogs were bulldogs. 
It SEEMS (and keep in mind my field of vision is smaller than most simply because I'm new to it all) that bulldogs all hit quite similarly as well and are more 'bulldog headed' in how they come at the decoy. My boy seems to have a firm grasp of the punch is upper body and feet have and uses them accordingly. I can't imagine my changing his behavior because he's hurt me before when I was/am not bright enough to wait until I have better equipment! 

I will however post a video tomorrow of my playing with my little guy and you can critique my playing all you like! 
I will try and get all the different ways I rough house with him and the toys and see whatcha think!


----------



## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

You may simply just need to change how you present the tug, but anyways... I will just wait for your video then. :smile:


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Karen Havins said:


> I guess my issue here is that I never realized there was a problem with my boy using his feet on me.
> I put myself out there to seriously rough house with him...and he's never hit me (on the bite builder or tug) without some serious pressure from his front end. It's never once occurred to me that this is wrong behavior because in all the dogs I have seen work, I have only seen a couple that tuck their legs back in flight before biting. None of those dogs were bulldogs.
> It SEEMS (and keep in mind my field of vision is smaller than most simply because I'm new to it all) that bulldogs all hit quite similarly as well and are more 'bulldog headed' in how they come at the decoy. My boy seems to have a firm grasp of the punch is upper body and feet have and uses them accordingly. I can't imagine my changing his behavior because he's hurt me before when I was/am not bright enough to wait until I have better equipment!
> 
> ...


Bulldogs usually try to go right through you, usually pretty reckless, and many will try to center up on you anyhow...get something padded...you play rough with dogs, you take your lumps when they come, when it gets too much, you buy stuff, or alter how you do things....

I personally have never heard anyone ever, until today, recommend altering the dogs behavior when someone is encouraging rough play...I have seen people, and have myself, altered *my* behavior to avoid getting beat up by a dogs paws...

post a video, I could be 100% wrong and you might be doing something super crazy that could be recommended against, who knows....


----------



## Tracey Hughes (Jul 13, 2007)

I agree with Maren. If you are getting badly bruised, you should change up what you are doing. No sense in hurting yourself. Dogs can play tug just as well with feet off of you, they will only do what you allow them to do.

As for feet up on the helpers, our guys hit the feet off them but it is done to encourage /keep the dogs pulling strongly. And all the dogs are worked the same..bulldogs, shepherds, Malinois. Any dog can learn to work in a similar style, at our club strong pulling is encouraged to keep the bite strong and calm. Hard for a dog to chew if it is pulling really hard.


----------



## Karen Havins (Apr 22, 2012)

http://youtu.be/sFKaDpzJP4M

Short vid but you get the drift...


----------



## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Thanks for the video. Looked pretty good for the most part and I think most of it looked fine as far as his keeping his feet off you while you are tugging. But all you'd really need to do is present the wedge off to the side like shoulder high for the strike. I am right handed, so I feel more comfortable presenting it off to my right, but you should learn how to present it on both sides to keep them from anticipating where the reward is coming from. This DVD goes into a lot of detail on this and is very helpful:

http://leerburg.com/221.htm

Kind of OT but since you mentioned his weight and since he's your working dog, his body condition score just from the video is about a 6 to 7 out of 9. Working dogs should be about a 4 to 5 out of 9. Will help a lot for his endurance in the heat too, especially if you are doing PSA.


----------



## Karen Havins (Apr 22, 2012)

This is heavy for him but only by a couple pounds. We are changing his feed and not yet perfect. However, you can clearly see his ribs while he is working so I would have him far from overweight!

If you could see him and I wrestling to the ground over the tug you'd think I was insane...this was fairly tame but I cropped the part where he got me down..which was a first..lol


----------



## Karen Havins (Apr 22, 2012)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IlzJRtXmWLg
Here is a recent video where you can clearly see his ribs. Don't forget, he's an old school big ass bulldog, been looked at and evaluated by tons and never been told he's overweight. He isn't squishy..but feels like a train. 
I'm sensitive over that, because in our bulldog world you won't believe the fat ppl pack on their dogs to brag about weight, it's a pet peeve of mine!

Now...MY body score on the other hand...lol


----------



## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Ha, you and me both on the body condition score!

I could not see ribs on the second video as the lighting is a little dark, but it's also important to remember that body condition scoring is not just about the ribs. Dogs, like people, carry weight differently, so in your dog's case, he seems to carry it through his shoulders, chest, loin, and stomach with some along his ribs too. Some dogs will carry extra over their rump right by the tail or on their neck. So what you would see with an average working dog regardless of breed of a body condition score of 4.5/9 is an obvious tuck up under the stomach, an easily noticed waist from above, the last 2-3 ribs viewable from the side even if they aren't breathing heavily, and no excessive fat cover on the shoulders and chest. It's not a criticism at all and I am VERY used to people saying "oh, he's 140 lbs of muscle!" in their Rottweiler (one of my favorite breeds) when they are really just overweight. Just something to help your dog's performance.


----------



## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

He's got a cute bark. Reminds me of some of the AB x DDB crosses I have seen. Where's he from?


----------



## Karen Havins (Apr 22, 2012)

haha yeah, I almost said ignore the bark..his particular bark distorts on video...used to think it was just the phone..but it does it on a camcorder as well! 

He's from a breeder here in Texas, here is his breeding.
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/american_bulldog/dog.html?id=1007814


----------



## Karen Havins (Apr 22, 2012)

Maren...I took two vids for you to get a better look..tell me what you think...

Please ignore the excessive breathing, we'd been our for about an hour, jumps, a frame and sprinting across the 5 acres..lol

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pNaF-TnJAs0


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9jorID65tQ


----------



## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

i think this one you already had posted shows his weight distribution even better :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-teKuANKMAI&feature=autoplay&list=UL76f0YrU8J1s&playnext=1


----------



## Karen Havins (Apr 22, 2012)

rick smith said:


> i think this one you already had posted shows his weight distribution even better :
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-teKuANKMAI&feature=autoplay&list=UL76f0YrU8J1s&playnext=1



That Toy by the way..the Egg?
MIRACULOUS toy. 
For bulldogs, it's NOT indestructible...but it would be if the bulldog didn't have the huge mouth my boy has...it's hard plastic. 
He was frantic that first day...we still have it...still an egg shaped! He can pick it up now though not super easily...great toy..highly recommend


----------



## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Yeah, I'd still say he would be closer to show condition than ideal working condition. Something to know is that body condition scoring has to do with body fat percentages and that each number on the chart corresponds to about 5% body fat. So like 0-5% is emaciated and is a 1/9, 5-10% is too thin and is a 2/9, and so on. Most working dogs, regardless of breed, should be between a 4 or 5 out of 9, which is about 20-25%. The truest way to get an idea would what's called a DEXA scan, which is kind of like an x-ray machine that can calculate the percentage of body fat. This is used in research mostly, but some specialty practices have them too. 

So because most people can't get a DEXA scan for their dog, we use body condition score. One important thing to remember is BCS is about percentage of body fat, NOT muscling. So people will say, "but he's got big muscles!" That may be true too, but that's not part of the measurement. A couple random examples of different types of American bulldogs with my VERY rough estimates of BCS based on their photos. These are just a rough guess because you really have to feel a dog and not just look. I don't know these dogs, just pulled them off google images:

These dogs are about a 4/9 or 4.5/9:




























This dog is about a 5/9










This dogs is about a 5.5/9










This dog is about a 6 to 6.5/9










These dogs are about a 7/9



















The other thing is that it does not matter what "style" or "type" the dog is. The percentage of body fat is quantifiable and should not matter. You could have a starved looking Johnson style or an obese Scott style.


----------



## Robley Smith (Apr 20, 2012)

A good post with nice examples Maren. I learned something. And nice dog Karen, I like him.


----------



## Karen Havins (Apr 22, 2012)

He went back to work yesterday, we are going out again right now in the storm...lol
So, I will post again soon, sadly, we are still adjusting his food a bit with the chicken/sweet potatoe mix...and it's hard to get his exact numbers down on what he needs...still working on it though. 
We'll see what you think soon!


----------



## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

What brand is he eating?


----------



## Karen Havins (Apr 22, 2012)

Well, we feed both boiled chicken quarters, 10lbs at a time, and about 4-5 small to medium sweet potatoes. 
We feed Mackeral 2 times a week and add eggs, once or twice. 

Then, when he's on Kibble, Orijen Adult.


----------



## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Wait, am I understanding this right? He's getting 10 lbs of meat per day? 10 lbs of chicken quarters would be nearly 10,000 kcals per day, not even counting the rest of it. A moderately active 100 lbs dog should be getting somewhere around 2300-2500 kcal per day. The other problem is your diet is going to be really unbalanced. Chicken quarters and sweet potato plus occasional egg and fish is not even close. You will need other kinds and cuts of meats as well as organ meat and a veggie mix (beyond the sweet potato).


----------



## Karen Havins (Apr 22, 2012)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Wait, am I understanding this right? He's getting 10 lbs of meat per day? 10 lbs of chicken quarters would be nearly 10,000 kcals per day, not even counting the rest of it. A moderately active 100 lbs dog should be getting somewhere around 2300-2500 kcal per day. The other problem is your diet is going to be really unbalanced. Chicken quarters and sweet potato plus occasional egg and fish is not even close. You will need other kinds and cuts of meats as well as organ meat and a veggie mix (beyond the sweet potato).



Oh, my, no...that was not a good way to put it! lol

SORRY!

We BOIL 10 lbs at a time with sweet potatoes, it lasts my two dogs, about 2 days...give or take a feeding depending on the meat on the bones!

It's fed with alternating feedings of Orijen now. The baby gets LBPuppy and the big dog Adult.


----------

