# Question on Use of Stick



## Tamara Champagne (Jan 20, 2009)

There seems to be some conflict within our schutzhund club regarding the use of the stick when giving the dog a bite. Some helpers raise the stick quite a bit, and others hardly at all. Is there a right and a wrong way to do this, and what is the reason behind either method?

I have seen more experienced helpers do both, but I don't really have an understanding of why. Could someone explain that to me please? Hoping to go back to the club with a better understanding. No one there could explain it...they all just had an opinion.


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## Jimmy Dalton (Apr 29, 2009)

Tamara, as a teaching helper, National helper and apprentice judge, I would say there is no one wrong in this case. If you are talking about training then the helper may be working on getting the dog use to the pressure of the stick, which there is nothing wrong with this. If you are talking about a trail then the stick must be raised in a threating manner and the dog must be given stick hits and then the stick must go back to a threating position. I hope this helps, thanks


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

Jimmy Dalton said:


> Tamara, as a teaching helper, National helper and apprentice judge, I would say there is no one wrong in this case. If you are talking about training then the helper may be working on getting the dog use to the pressure of the stick, which there is nothing wrong with this. If you are talking about a trail then the stick must be raised in a threating manner and the dog must be given stick hits and then the stick must go back to a threating position. I hope this helps, thanks


Agreed, I believe the raised stick is to simulate a threat, maybe the training helplers are reading the dogs reaction and thus the change in stick positioning in training?


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## Tamara Champagne (Jan 20, 2009)

Thanks...I guess I shoud have been clearer - I was definatley talking about training. So...should the helper always be raising the stick in training? I can see some instances where like you said, the helper is getting the dog used to the stick pressure, but is this something that should be done with every bite given to the dog? I guess it vastly depends on the dog being worked.

I am asking specifically b/c we have a helper that doesn't always rasie his stick in training....I don't have an issue with this on my dogs but some of the other members think it is wrong that he doesn't always use it.


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## Jimmy Dalton (Apr 29, 2009)

It doesn't have to be everytime, but the dog has to get to the point where it doesn't matter where the stick is. Simply ask the helper why he or she feels they do not have to raise the stick every time and also look at the dogs being worked. Do they stay on sleeve, getting chewy, growl or show any reaction? Has the helper done trails before? Bottom line is it is the helpers job to listen to the training directoror owner of the dog. this way the person to blame is one of them and not the helper. If at any time you see the dog having trouble with this helper and training is going backwards or no where then don't train any more till you talk about it and come up with a training plan, thanks


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## Dan Brigham (Jul 23, 2009)

Tamara Champagne said:


> Thanks...I guess I shoud have been clearer - I was definatley talking about training. So...should the helper always be raising the stick in training? I can see some instances where like you said, the helper is getting the dog used to the stick pressure, but is this something that should be done with every bite given to the dog? I guess it vastly depends on the dog being worked.
> 
> I am asking specifically b/c we have a helper that doesn't always rasie his stick in training....I don't have an issue with this on my dogs but some of the other members think it is wrong that he doesn't always use it.


Tamara,

I am going to go a step further. Do you remember a dobe person ever talking about 'cookie cutter' training?? Well, maybe what you are seeing is good helper work that is giving each dog the amount of stick that they can handle and improve on a weekly basis. 

Every helper has a different relationship to dogs. Some helpers have a lot more presence, they may not be able to raise the stick so much with a younger, greener dog. Other helpers who are more a prey type helper can get away with lots of stick movement, it may actually help enhance their ability to be considered a bit of a threat. 

Another thing, some dogs have a definite stick problem and they need a more deliberate bit of stick introduction as a result. Other dogs barely acknowledge that the stupid thing exists because they are high in drive. 

I am not talking just dobes, just that I know that is your breed of choice. There are dogs in all breeds that are better and worse about the stick. In the clubs that I have been involved I have seen a ton of dogs that look great just literally fall apart when the stick is introduced. Getting a dog through stick issues can be as difficult as say a created problem in the blind. Since you have gotten an opinion by an apprentice judge and National level trial helper, he probably has worked and learning to judge the amount each dog should be assessed for such issues. 

My belief is that higher drive dogs that you can keep in drive tend to be less aware of the stick. 

I think you are being very observant and ask a very good question. If you are curious and want to learn more=D>, I am sure that your helpers are
lots of times able to explain what they saw in that dogs eyes and posture that allowed them to use more stick and when they backed off using it. 
Try not to monopolize them but often they are very happy to talk about what they saw. They tend to talk to each other when working an issue, just so they can help a dog through the issue.


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## Tamara Champagne (Jan 20, 2009)

Hey Dan,

Thanks for the input. For sure I have heard the term before - infact I think a lot of the training I have seen lately has been a sort of blanket training...what is good for one, must be good for all LOL I am the only member that doesn't have GSD so I tend to think about my training a little different. 

My helpers are excellent at answering questions so I am quite grateful for that. Last night though, they seemed to be on different sides concerning the stick thing.

I feel sometimes though that the way one helpers trains is in conflict with the way another trains. It is tough to hold ground with our own dogs when there is a difference of opinion...especially in my case since I am so new. 

Thanks everyone for the input on the stick question though - it gave me some clarity on what helpers are exactly doing with it


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

I like to use the stick as a signal to bite. If the stick is up the dog bites. I have seen too many dogs that need to have the sleeve move before they will bite. If you want to see why that’s a problem check out the FMBB Championships in Germany a few years ago. That being said, with dogs that are showing stick issues in the early stages of training, I might not use a raised stick all of the time. I also might not raise the stick on a dog that has a lot of aggression if I want him to stay a little more clear headed at that moment. For example if we are trying to teach something new to the dog.


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## Tamara Champagne (Jan 20, 2009)

That's a good explanation of use - thanks!! I think in this situation, we were teaching the dog a h/b in the blind and he was getting really dirty...so the helper in this case was NOT using the stick and the observers (I like to call them the deck gallery) were giving the helper a hard time for not using it.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

We use the stick and at limes just a raised hand. Reading the dog may also be one reason for a lowered stick or a sign of decoy submission, dog is winning so why keep up the visual fight or threat? A lowered stick is also good for decoy protection in case the dog gets dirty!!!


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## Kristina Senter (Apr 4, 2006)

Tamara Champagne said:


> That's a good explanation of use - thanks!! I think in this situation, we were teaching the dog a h/b in the blind and he was getting really dirty...so the helper in this case was NOT using the stick and the observers (I like to call them the deck gallery) were giving the helper a hard time for not using it.



Sounds like a pretty crummy group of observers. Hopefully these were not just the other handlers who could not see what the helper was trying to accomplish! Man....way to show support of the club helpers. #-o


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