# My young kelpie working sheep



## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

I havent done much training with this girl, been too hot, just a bit on my 10 dog broke training whethers. She is just over 2 years old and has a tendency not to cope so well when challenged with aggressive sheep. 

Nice cool day today so thought I would try her on some new sheep I have in the small house paddock to settle them in to the farm - a mix of a few dog broke ewes to settle them and some of my new ewes and a ram that have only been worked a couple of times by my BC. Their tendency is to run in all directions and avoid me so only worked them for a short while so they didnt get too stressed. 

I didnt say anything just held the camera and observed what she did and ran backwards, changed directions, trying not to trip over any rocks. I was quite pleased with her. She had a bit of a standoff with one ewe who decide to charge her and then run off towards some sheep in another paddock and I was surprised that my kelpie held her ground with her.

She is what she is and I will continue working with her now the weather is cooling. But she is growing on me. She does love to work sheep.

http://youtu.be/vsyggmryYq4

http://youtu.be/ab7ikfkbOiw


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## Gerald Dunn (Sep 24, 2011)

nice, I enjoyed it =D>


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

great videos...thanks for sharing


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

So what type of sheep are these? They don't seem as tight flocking. Your kelpie seems more upright and with less eye than what I'm used to seeing. 

T


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Thanks for sharing that, it was cool to watch! I know nothing about herding.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Nice gather even with the loose stock.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> So what type of sheep are these? They don't seem as tight flocking. Your kelpie seems more upright and with less eye than what I'm used to seeing.
> 
> T



I would called kelpies an upright breed. More practical, less trial orientated. Farm/practical guys I know dont not select particularly for eye, again a trial thing that adds little to practical work jmo.

Those sheep seem typical to me.

Nice pup.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> I would called kelpies an upright breed. More practical, less trial orientated. Farm/practical guys I know dont not select particularly for eye, again a trial thing that adds little to practical work jmo.
> 
> Those sheep seem typical to me.
> 
> Nice pup.


Interesting. We definitely see more eye/stalk in the Kelpies over here. But the "eye" was also a trial thing in BCs. They started out being prety upright. Will be interesting to see how Sara's baby dog matures and develops.



T


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> I would called kelpies an upright breed. More practical, less trial orientated. Farm/practical guys I know dont not select particularly for eye, again a trial thing that adds little to practical work jmo.
> 
> Those sheep seem typical to me.
> 
> Nice pup.


In answer to T as far as eye goes Pete probably sums it up. 

My BC is much the same. Eye is good when it is the right type and used in the right situations and too much pressure eye is not so good according to certain experienced people. Could be an Aussie thing and our environment. When I head out with her to work sheep she does assume more of a crouch type position but not so much when working sheep and my BC is even more upright. Both come from reasonably good working lines. People dont seem to talk much about eye and I havent noticed it much in the local kelpies.

In answer to the sheep question, they are Wiltipolls bred in Australia from the British Wiltshire horn so they dont require as much management as Merinos like shearing, crutching, fly treatments etc. Downside is they are very seasonal breeders and lamb late on to fading pastures. They also tend towards triplets which can keep me busy at lambing.

I think the reason this lot are very loose flocking and run in all directions at the sight of dogs and me is a combination of them never been handled much and never with dogs - they are around 4 years old and I have just bought them in from different flocks from another farm as they have diferent bloodlines. 

I then put 5 ewes from another group that know the ropes into settle them and these 5 stick to themselves for the main part. There are about 3 little social groups and the ram moves among them. They tend to split and run as these groups. I am trying to get them used to the dogs so I dont have as much hassle at lambing. At the moment they tend to run for their lives when they see a dog.

I recently put some young whethers from last years lambs in to my whether training flock and I now have 2 whether flocks as they tend not to socialise, which is also good training for my youngsters as the new group will try and run off in another direction. 

My kelpie has quite a good feel to this loose flocking behaviour and I like to use her for these situations. I dont want to overface her yet but one day I will put a couple of flocks together and see what happens on a larger number.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Sara Waters said:


> In answer to T as far as eye goes Pete probably sums it up.
> 
> My BC is much the same. Eye is good when it is the right type and used in the right situations and too much pressure eye is not so good according to certain experienced people. Could be an Aussie thing and our environment. When I head out with her to work sheep she does assume more of a crouch type position but not so much when working sheep and my BC is even more upright. Both come from reasonably good working lines. People dont seem to talk much about eye and I havent noticed it much in the local kelpies.
> 
> ...


 
Okay, I was wondering if they were from different groups. They seemed to be actually moving away from one another. 

T


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Okay, I was wondering if they were from different groups. They seemed to be actually moving away from one another.
> 
> T


Yes different groups and will move in those groups in all different directions and a few singles also making a run for it. Good for letting my dogs make choices. I let my kelpie work it out herself and I was quite pleased that she kept her eye on all of them and when faced with a choice of direction seemed to make the right choice and was quick to bring the breakaway single back into the flock. I didnt realise that had happened untill I watch the vid. I am looking forward to seeing how she develops especially when the lambs come again this year. Will she cope - I dont know.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Cool to watch, thanks for sharing!


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

T, I highly recommend Tony Parsons new book, gives a good insight into the hows, whys and whens of the kelpie by someone who was as close to the start of it as any living person could and spent an entire life there.

not recommended as a training manual per se.

I will read about any working breed by anyone who spent their entire life dedicated to them.


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## kenneth roth (Jul 29, 2010)

the sheep seemed to follow you around and the dog was herding them towards you


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

kenneth roth said:


> the sheep seemed to follow you around and the dog was herding them towards you


No the sheep most definitely dont follow me by choice. They are very skittish as most of them have just come out of the salt lake scrub. They dont want anything to do with me currently LOL and given the choice would run from me. That is all my dogs work, whose instinct is to gather them towards me. 

You can see she is doing a lot of running to try and keep them together and towards me. 

My well handled sheep will follow me when the dogs appear because they know from experience that resistance is futile and all the dogs do is quietly bring up the rear to make sure that they keep following me.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

kenneth roth said:


> the sheep seemed to follow you around and the dog was herding them towards you



Er, Kenneth you have just defined what herding is, good for you, thats what she is doing and thats what you saw and thats why she videod it and posted it.

I'm sure Sarah feels much wiser now you explained it all out?????

Where do they all come from..... sheesh.


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## Kellie Wolverton (Jan 16, 2009)

Thanks for posting those videos I do love seeing the Kelpies. Very nice work!

I have been working with my kelpie girl to let loose of her eye a bit. It seems to help everyone involved feel more relaxed  

My hat is off to you...videoing and walking backwards all while keeping an eye on the dog...well done. I would have fallen on my backside. I was barely able to take still photos while working our replacement heifers!


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Kellie Wolverton said:


> Thanks for posting those videos I do love seeing the Kelpies. Very nice work!
> 
> I have been working with my kelpie girl to let loose of her eye a bit. It seems to help everyone involved feel more relaxed
> 
> My hat is off to you...videoing and walking backwards all while keeping an eye on the dog...well done. I would have fallen on my backside. I was barely able to take still photos while working our replacement heifers!


LOL one of the benefits of videoing is that you have to let the dog do its own thing and have some trust in it

My dogs are all mainly upright workers with not much crouch and stare so I havent really worked with that scenario. How do you get your kelpie to let loose of her eye?


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Would you believe guys crack a whip, throw shit at the dog anything to break a dogs eye when it locks in, cast is more valued and a lot eye dogs stop the cast short especially in open country.

clapping in long grass with wildish sheep used to dingo attacks, not a desired trait outside the trial arena.


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## kellie pulido (Apr 24, 2007)

great work love watching it


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## Kellie Wolverton (Jan 16, 2009)

I use a correction word to keep her out and a bit of body pressure
I encourage her to stay out and see the "bigger" picture. And just take the time to keep doing that until she relaxes and is more discretionary with her eye. No throwing things, no yelling, no point in that when I am trying to teach her something and make sure she is comfortable and understands the concept. I think that throwing things, etc. would make her anxious and would draw her in even more 

She has an amazing natural cover and reads the stock well, but sometimes, not always, gets locked onto one or two animals with her eye.

And sometimes she does, like you say Peter, stop short on an otherwise very nice cast. She is more upright. I love the patience she has with the stock, but the head/heel bite is there if we need it!

I just love my Kelpie, she is a great working partner.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

great vid !
- must be nice to work with dogs allowing them to do what comes natural and be more of a team captain rather than a coach and taskmaster
- wish we had the space for stock around here ... i would really enjoy trying to learn about herding with a dog 

- but if i had a few well mannered sheep and a good dog it would be cool to have a dog move em through the shopping arcade here ... we have one that is almost a mile long


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Kellie Wolverton said:


> I use a correction word to keep her out and a bit of body pressure
> I encourage her to stay out and see the "bigger" picture. And just take the time to keep doing that until she relaxes and is more discretionary with her eye. No throwing things, no yelling, no point in that when I am trying to teach her something and make sure she is comfortable and understands the concept. I think that throwing things, etc. would make her anxious and would draw her in even more
> 
> She has an amazing natural cover and reads the stock well, but sometimes, not always, gets locked onto one or two animals with her eye.
> ...


My BC is a very upright worker but he also occasionally gets locked into one or two animals with his eye although generally only on my training whethers and not on anything else. Maybe some training error on my part when he was a pup, which was only last year really, I dont know. He can also tend to slide around to the head and I have to send him behind.

I do as you do and also flick him out with my stick. He alo knows the off command and will swing out. Sometimes his cast is so wide and deep I think that he is going to dissapear on the horizon and the sheep have already started to run. He went through a little patch of sticking on the cast but that seems to have passed.

He is definitely not patient LOL, something I am working on. My kelpie is more biddable in that respect.

I will video my koolie one day. He is very much more a driving dog and doesnt slide round to the head unless I ask him to.


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

rick smith said:


> great vid !
> - must be nice to work with dogs allowing them to do what comes natural and be more of a team captain rather than a coach and taskmaster
> - wish we had the space for stock around here ... i would really enjoy trying to learn about herding with a dog
> 
> - but if i had a few well mannered sheep and a good dog it would be cool to have a dog move em through the shopping arcade here ... we have one that is almost a mile long


Yes it is enjoyable herding, very different to agility which I also do with my dogs. I have to have a completely different mindset for each type of training. I dont have to have the toys and treats when I go herding, it is just me the sheep and working with the dogs instincts and miles of open sky and country stretching to the horizon. Beautiful.

A mile long shopping arcade? That would be total overload, shopping scares me at the best of times LOL.


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## Kellie Wolverton (Jan 16, 2009)

Sara Waters said:


> I will video my koolie one day. He is very much more a driving dog and doesnt slide round to the head unless I ask him to.


I would love to see that! We don't have too many Koolies here in the US,at least none that I have seen.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> T, I highly recommend Tony Parsons new book, gives a good insight into the hows, whys and whens of the kelpie by someone who was as close to the start of it as any living person could and spent an entire life there.
> 
> not recommended as a training manual per se.
> 
> I will read about any working breed by anyone who spent their entire life dedicated to them.


I like to read about any working breed and selection/breeding for working traits regardless of breed. If a work/test a dog, I always get a pedigree regardless of breed. I'll have to check him out.


T


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> I like to read about any working breed and selection/breeding for working traits regardless of breed. If a work/test a dog, I always get a pedigree regardless of breed. I'll have to check him out.
> 
> 
> T


 Not sure yr financial situation its expensive. Be happy to loan it to you. it is a brick however and return freight might be more than purchase cost??

Whole chapter on the failed debut of kelpies into north america, who did they go to when they wanted to import, the breed registry and bought show champions for working dogs......epic fail.

The good guys have sorted it out a bit since then.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> Not sure yr financial situation its expensive. Be happy to loan it to you. it is a brick however and return freight might be more than purchase cost??
> 
> Whole chapter on the failed debut of kelpies into north america, who did they go to when they wanted to import, the breed registry and bought show champions for working dogs......epic fail.
> 
> The good guys have sorted it out a bit since then.


Peter,

Thanks for the offer. Let me check around. I've worked with a couple of kelpie trainers that imported kelpies and had australian trainers over for training seminars. I'll get back to you. I'd love to see it. 

T


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Will trade ya for a von Steph....gsd book.



Just kiddin.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> Will trade ya for a von Steph....gsd book.
> 
> 
> 
> Just kiddin.


 
Hahahaha, can you believe I paid $8 for one in mint condition signed by the SV President at a flea market?

T


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Is there a 'merge threads' function this is making me giddy.


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> Is there a 'merge threads' function this is making me giddy.


 Reminds me of my old gran getting giddy on sherry. Which thread are we merging with?


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Thr 'yeeeeeessssss..........' Thread.


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> Thr 'yeeeeeessssss..........' Thread.


Maybe you could start another on books and breeds for herding LOL


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## kenneth roth (Jul 29, 2010)

Sara Waters said:


> No the sheep most definitely dont follow me by choice. They are very skittish as most of them have just come out of the salt lake scrub. They dont want anything to do with me currently LOL and given the choice would run from me. That is all my dogs work, whose instinct is to gather them towards me.
> 
> You can see she is doing a lot of running to try and keep them together and towards me.
> 
> My well handled sheep will follow me when the dogs appear because they know from experience that resistance is futile and all the dogs do is quietly bring up the rear to make sure that they keep following me.


i see every time u move your foot by a foot in the video the sheep move, i dont see the dog moving in the back ground :lol:


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Dont want the sheep to overrun the handler, if they move in right direction and speed dogs job is to stay out the F'ing way.

If there was no dog sheep would move alright but not toward handler lol. 

Stock learn they get relief from following the man not avoiding the dog.

And Sarah aint even a man.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

The dog can move the livestock without motion on his part--eye mental communication. With non-dogged sheep, the handler can also stop the motion of the sheep despite the fact that a dog is behind them depending on whether the dog is in the flight/fight zone of the stock.

T


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

kenneth roth said:


> i see every time u move your foot by a foot in the video the sheep move, i dont see the dog moving in the back ground :lol:


Without my dogs the sheep would running very fast in the other direction. Maybe I should take a video without the dog to show you just how good they follow me not LOL! 

The ideal scenario is a dog that has minimal movement, only moves enough to apply the right pressure to move the stock calmy forward. If you are working sheep all day the last thing you want is a dog racing around like a mad thing, a really good dog reads stock well and only moves when it needs to. The stock will understand the power of a good dog and their reward for compliance is for the dog to back the pressure off. A good dog will also understand just how much pressure to apply and to keep a good distance if things are going well.

If my sheep give you the impression that they are following me without giving the impression of much movement then that is good. I can assure you my dog was working quite hard to stop the sheep breaking off into groups. 

I can most certainly see the dog moving in the background LOL.


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## Zakia Days (Mar 13, 2009)

Wow! That was wonderful to see. First time I've watched a kelpie work. I've only see herding live, once about 7 months ago. They were BC's. One was in training and the other was very exerienced. They were trial herders, so a lot more "eye" and crouching as you all were saying. Not sure what type of sheep they were working though. They were all pretty much together although at some point they did all try to break away and run. It is very fun to watch. Looking forward to seeing your koolie(??) video. Thanks for sharing.


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