# Little a$$hole



## Sue Miller (Jul 21, 2009)

My puppy raising consists of teaching a pup his behavior controls what happens to him. My puppy was trained from day one with motivation. He just turned 6-months-old & I've had the prong on him for about a month for loose-leash walking & correction for disobedience. He has learned how to avoid a correction so there is no confusion or stress from unfair corrections.

There's one thing with this puppy that is very funny (kind of). The puppy is always with me when he's out of his crate. He's heavily socialized & is very stable. Sometimes, he'll look at me & just attack--I mean really attack. It doesn't happen that often but it does happen. If I correct him he just gets madder. If I tell him to sit, he immediately lets go & sits without correction. I let him sit for a short time & then release him & he goes about his business.

What do you think? Jeff any suggesions?


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Sue Miller said:


> My puppy raising consists of teaching a pup his behavior controls what happens to him. My puppy was trained from day one with motivation. He just turned 6-months-old & I've had the prong on him for about a month for loose-leash walking & correction for disobedience. He has learned how to avoid a correction so there is no confusion or stress from unfair corrections.
> 
> There's one thing with this puppy that is very funny (kind of). The puppy is always with me when he's out of his crate. He's heavily socialized & is very stable. Sometimes, he'll look at me & just attack--I mean really attack. It doesn't happen that often but it does happen. If I correct him he just gets madder. If I tell him to sit, he immediately lets go & sits without correction. I let him sit for a short time & then release him & he goes about his business.


Hi Sue,

You've obviously ruined this dog with all this operant
conditioning foolishness and tracking in circles. NOW
he is "attacking" you. The only thing to do is rehome him
(I'd be willing to take him off your hands) and start over
again.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Sue Miller said:


> My puppy raising consists of teaching a pup his behavior controls what happens to him. My puppy was trained from day one with motivation. He just turned 6-months-old & I've had the prong on him for about a month for loose-leash walking & correction for disobedience. He has learned how to avoid a correction so there is no confusion or stress from unfair corrections.
> 
> There's one thing with this puppy that is very funny (kind of). The puppy is always with me when he's out of his crate. He's heavily socialized & is very stable. Sometimes, he'll look at me & just attack--I mean really attack. It doesn't happen that often but it does happen. If I correct him he just gets madder. If I tell him to sit, he immediately lets go & sits without correction. I let him sit for a short time & then release him & he goes about his business.
> 
> What do you think? Jeff any suggesions?


Sue,

Reminds me of soething that the smart pups trained in operant conditioning do. They fail interntionally inorder to maniuplate the trainer and earn a reward.

Example: Puppy learns that it gets a reward for recall. So puppy runs AWAY from the handler in order to get the handler to call it and get a reward.

Example: Puppy learns it is rewarded for leave it. But that handler forgets to reward the good behavior randomly. So the puppy learns to get into things in order to get the handler to give the leave it command and get a reward.

IF this is the case, there are a couple things hat can be done. One is NEVER reward an offered behavior if the behavior already has a cue. So if the dog knows sit, never reward sit unless you have asked for it. This minimizes spontaneous rehearsal.

The second is to sto rewarding a correct behavior immediately following a misbehavior.

The third is to correct the intentional misbehavior to extinct it.

I WOULD NOT TOLERATE the behavior. Even a young pup doing this would earn a choke collar and a come-to-Jesus meeting. It sould only take once (one-session-imprinting) to demostrate to the pupy that you demand its respect and are not soley a food dispenser.

"You will get whatever you will tolerate." My favorite quote. Applies to dating, employees, and dog training...


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## Sue Miller (Jul 21, 2009)

Hi Anne--he's not really getting any food any more except on the track. During the foundation training I use food--sit, down, come, attention heel, walk on loose leash. What we're working on now is confidence, socializing, bonding with me & the biggie, listening to everything I say.

I think it's more of a dominance thing. We can be playing & he's having a good time & then he just attacks me. He gets madder if I correct him for attacking me. If I correct him for not sitting, he is fine with it & his reaction is correct (avoidance). When I release him from the sit his only reward is the release--he goes back to doing whatever we were doing before the incident.

At this young age, I don't want to correct him for aggression since this is what I want in bite work. If I can control him in any other way for now I want to delay the "come to Jesus" moment.


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## Meng Xiong (Jan 21, 2009)

Sue Miller said:


> Hi Anne--he's not really getting any food any more except on the track. During the foundation training I use food--sit, down, come, attention heel, walk on loose leash. What we're working on now is confidence, socializing, bonding with me & the biggie, listening to everything I say.
> 
> I think it's more of a dominance thing. We can be playing & he's having a good time & then he just attacks me. He gets madder if I correct him for attacking me. If I correct him for not sitting, he is fine with it & his reaction is correct (avoidance). When I release him from the sit his only reward is the release--he goes back to doing whatever we were doing before the incident.
> 
> At this young age, I don't want to correct him for aggression since this is what I want in bite work. If I can control him in any other way for now I want to delay the "come to Jesus" moment.


 
My current dog was like this as a pup, and it was my first dog with this type of dominant attitude. I was like you in that I kind of babied him from corrections because I thought it would kill his drive, confidence, aggression or whatever you want to call it. But as a noob I was/and still am constantly evaluating my methods as I learn and making changes I see fit... and after a while I learned that any non-sense fromt his little shit was not going to be tolerated... and so the last time he thought it would be cool to lash out I put my foot up his ass, and ive never seen him act that way since. I havn't noticed anything negative from that incedent and quit frankly I think our relationship has been better since then.

I kind of wish I'd put my foot down a little earlier, and so that was another lesson learned.


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## David Ruby (Jul 21, 2009)

Sue Miller said:


> At this young age, I don't want to correct him for aggression since this is what I want in bite work. If I can control him in any other way for now I want to delay the "come to Jesus" moment.


I'm not a dog trainer, so I'm asking not advising. Why would that be different from any other OB correction? If it is a behavior you do not want, why not correct him for it? I'd presume it could be done in a way that wouldn't kill drive or aggression, just correcting the behavior when done inappropriately. Even telling him no and then putting him in a Down or crate, maybe making it a continuation of the OB. The aggression and working on the dog's channeling of drive would come through playing and tug work, and whatnot, wouldn't it?

Feel free to kill me if I'm totally off.

-Cheers


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## Sue Miller (Jul 21, 2009)

I used to tie him to a door knob & leave him for a little while when he was a little puppy. I thought it is pretty funny that he'll get more vicious if I correct him for attacking but doesn't if I correct him for not sitting. I figure at 6-months-old he's just starting to mature & it's natural for him to test especially me. I don't think a correction will change these feelings--a strong enough correction will stop him from biting me but I also think it will cause confusion when he's expected to act aggressively during bitework. I think it's just natural for a dog this age (6 months) to act like this. Believe me, we're going to work this out, but right now, he's corrected for not sitting. We have time to work this out & as he matures, he'll change. I'm not against corrections.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Sue Miller said:


> I used to tie him to a door knob & leave him for a little while when he was a little puppy. I thought it is pretty funny that he'll get more vicious if I correct him for attacking but doesn't if I correct him for not sitting. I figure at 6-months-old he's just starting to mature & it's natural for him to test especially me. I don't think a correction will change these feelings--a strong enough correction will stop him from biting me but I also think it will cause confusion when he's expected to act aggressively during bitework. I think it's just natural for a dog this age (6 months) to act like this. Believe me, we're going to work this out, but right now, he's corrected for not sitting. We have time to work this out & as he matures, he'll change. I'm not against corrections.


No - biting the handler and fighting a decoy are totally different. I know... wait until he's big and you actually get hurt... and it takes a helluva correction to stop it.  If the correction intensifies the aggression, you aren't using the right correction or you are not applying it firmly/forcefully enough.


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## Sue Miller (Jul 21, 2009)

I think this is just a natural thing for a puppy--raging hormones at this age. I think he's just acting normally for a puppy of this age & that corrections aren't going to change those feelings right now so I think it would be counterproductive to correct him for natural behavior & might ruin our relationship. I think he's showing normal adolescencent behavior. I think the fact that he'll stop biting immediately & obey an obedience command is a pretty good solution. I mentioned before--he's not fed anymore during obedience (except tracking) so he's not getting rewarded for aggression in any way. I don't get angry, or show pain (although it hurts & I have bruises), or yell--I just tell him to sit & he does it. I think it's a pretty good way of handling the situation.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Do you think it is hormones, or he just needs to do more training ?? 

I don't like the full on attack thing, and punching him in the head before he gets to you is not going to ruin his bitework. It is not acceptable to bite the handler. I have seen this before, and the dog was not that much, just knew that he could punk out his handler. The pup tried me and I grabbed him and shoved his head in the dirt. He called it a day. 

So based on what you are describing, he looks at you as his bitch.....not really where you want to be here pretty soon.

before you do the punch in the head thing, what happens if you give a command before he gets to you, and how often is this occuring ??


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## Terry Fisk (Jul 26, 2007)

Sue Miller said:


> I think it's more of a dominance thing. We can be playing & he's having a good time & then he just attacks me. He gets madder if I correct him for attacking me.


Isn't he a Tiekerhook pup? If so didnt' you get the Tiekerhook 101 lecture:?:


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## Sue Miller (Jul 21, 2009)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Do you think it is hormones, or he just needs to do more training ??
> 
> before you do the punch in the head thing, what happens if you give a command before he gets to you, and how often is this occuring ??


I wouldn't say it happens often--more like sometimes. I've been playing tug with him & teaching him the harder he fights the more he can overcome me--this might have something to do with it too. We don't have a club so we practice obedience outside dog parks, crowded parks etc. He's actually quite a great puppy--very stable--nothing startles or spooks him. So, looking at what I just wrote I guess I'm training him to fight & compete with me.


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## Sue Miller (Jul 21, 2009)

Hi Terry--yep he's a Tiekerhook pup--I knew exactly what I was getting. I think the discussion went off track. I posted to talk about how he stops & sits immediately--I thought it is a pretty good thing that he listens so well.

Then we all started talking about corrections. I still think that correcting him at this age for something that comes naturally for the breeding could be a very bad thing. I think problems like this is why lots of people like green dogs because they aren't teenagers with raging hormones. I love this puppy--I didn't mean to make him sound like an unstable aggressive nutcase.


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

The pup I had for a while out of Banshee and Vito = Biscuit like to do that, even in the yard he would be playing around and just turn, look and nail me. The more I nicely pushed him away the more he enjoyed and fought it.

I had to do the Old-Soft-Shoe on his head a couple of times then he quit.

I think he was looking at the confrontation as a Fun Game rather that something he shouldn't do.



I know you know how to handle this for sure.


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## Jason Caldwell (Dec 11, 2008)

If you yell "no" directly at the dog and the dog doesn't change its posture at all, meaning no sulking of any kind or ears pinned back or looking down, it's time for a physical correction. 

I'd actually like to see this in person. It's hard to tell from your post how much of this is play. I have one GSD who plays extremely hard with me, right up to the point of really hurting me. I can say, "I'm going out and you're not coming. What do you think of that?" She immediately mouths my foot and doesn't let go until I out her. It's play, and definitely no fun without boots!

Wonder how much of your situation is play, rank aggression, or just plain old puppy duppy craziness.


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