# Stopped attack



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Thought it would be interesting to see how everyone trains the stopped attack.

I was taught several ways, most deal with some sort of compulsion. Sandro and I were talking about how to deal with this without the compulsion.


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## steve gossmeyer (Jan 9, 2007)

i usually do it with having really good control. but i just do like a couple face attacks then throw in a stopped attack. but i usually use an ecollar just incase he goes to bite. somtimes i even nick him just incase when he is close. but i make sure i do a couple regular sends and not alot of stopped attacks. dont want the dog second guessing the entry. meaning dont want him to think im gonna call him off everytime. but ecollars are great for this


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

So the way we are thinking of doing this with the stopped attack without compulsion is to have the dog have a really good foundation with the whistle recall first. (duhhh) then have the dog on a harness and a long line with the line measured out so he cannot reach the decoy say 5-10 meters.

Then with the dog and a handler (not THE handler) on one end, the decoy the other, and slightly off to one side the REAL handler, and behind him, a blind and another decoy, in the blind.

IN THEORY (we haven't tried it) handler "B" sends the dog, dog gets to the 5-10 meter line and is whistled to heel by handler "A". If all goes right, then the decoy in the blind comes out and the dog is sent as a reward.

If possible, the decoy in the blind is the dogs "favorite" decoy. If the dog has one that is.

So the process is to have handler "A" start moving back towards handler "B" in an orderly fashion, until standing right next to him.

I have NO idea how well this will work, and only see a few possible problems so far. It seems like it will be a good way to do this without using compulsion.


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

what happens when the dog ignores the whistle and the other decoy? he hits the end of the line.....compulsion.

this is one of those areas where i just don't see the point other than to be able to say "my dog was trained all motivationally with no compulsion". if you combine compulsion with reward, then you get the best of both worlds with no negatives on a strong dog....


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Not trying to avoid all compulsion, just trying to get this exersize accomplished without having to blast away at the dog with the e-collar, or pinch. They are available, if it doesn't work out.

Not having tried it, those were definately some of the things I have anticipated. I have a pretty strong whistle recall right now..............well, right now.


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## steve gossmeyer (Jan 9, 2007)

i think the combination of a strong recall plus an ecollar jsut in case is the best way. but apples and oranges


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

how we do it:

strong foundation on HIER command, short distance (about 30 m), long measured line, dog on pinch, handler himself handles the line unless dog, call about 1-1.5 m. before end of line. If command is obeyed, dogs comes back reward by handler (verbal, ball or (re)bite). If not obeyed, correction by walking in pinch (not pulled in pinch but corrects himself), comes back..reward.

Not an active correction, but a passive one  if needed, dogs learns that obeying is reward and corrects himself if he not obeys (inmediatly (sp?)


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## steve gossmeyer (Jan 9, 2007)

sounds like a good way as well


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> how we do it:
> 
> strong foundation on HIER command, short distance (about 30 m), long measured line, dog on pinch, handler himself handles the line unless dog, call about 1-1.5 m. before end of line. If command is obeyed, dogs comes back reward by handler (verbal, ball or (re)bite). If not obeyed, correction by walking in pinch (not pulled in pinch but corrects himself), comes back..reward.
> 
> Not an active correction, but a passive one  if needed, dogs learns that obeying is reward and corrects himself if he not obeys (inmediatly (sp?)


that's how we've always done it. after that is reliable, we take the leash away and put the e-collar on...


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

This is a nice question when we discuss recall/stopped attack:

What do you do when dogs is/starting to anticipate on the excercise? For example: doesn´t want to go away from you anymore, returns before been called/whistled etc.

How do you deal with it: Don´t do excercise much, train the excercise everytime you trian or what?

Just being curious to your solutions...


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## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> just trying to get this exersize accomplished without having to blast away at the dog with the e-collar, or pinch.


It's never necessary to "blast away at the dog with the Ecollar" if the recall has been properly taught, reinforced and proofed. I manage to do this while working at the stim level that the dog first feels.


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## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> strong foundation on HIER command, short distance (about 30 m), long measured line, dog on pinch, handler himself handles the line unless dog, call about 1-1.5 m. before end of line. If command is obeyed, dogs comes back reward by handler (verbal, ball or (re)bite). If not obeyed, correction by walking in pinch (not pulled in pinch but corrects himself), comes back..reward.


I'm not a big fan of doing it this way. It's usually not a problem with most Mals but more sensitive dogs such as GSD's, won't go out again after hitting the end of the line hard. They usually will if you take off the line but then they don't stop. Put the line back on and they either won't go out or they go out a little way and then anticipate the correction, slow down, sometimes stop and sometimes return to the handler.


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## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

Tim Martens said:


> that's how we've always done it. after that is reliable, we take the leash away and put the e-collar on...


Tim do you do any sort of introduction with the Ecollar so the dog knows what it means?


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

The biggest point I want to get across to the dog is to immediately return on the whistle, whether on the bite, or not. I think that is the ticket to getting this exersize correct.

As far as avoiding anticipation, that is finding the balance. Not always so easy for me.:smile:


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

Lou Castle said:


> Tim do you do any sort of introduction with the Ecollar so the dog knows what it means?


yes. e-collar is worn while turned off for a few days, then it's used in obedience (sits, downs, heeling). then used for apprehension/control work.


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## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

Tim Martens said:


> yes. e-collar is worn while turned off for a few days, then it's used in obedience (sits, downs, heeling). then used for apprehension/control work.


Tim can you give me some idea of what you do during this period where the Ecollar is used in OB and then for apprehension? Do you couple it with leash corrections or substitute it for them? Do you use the nick or continuous button? Are corrections given automatically or only when the dog fails to perform a command.  Do you give some warning before pressing the button?


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

Lou Castle said:


> Tim can you give me some idea of what you do during this period where the Ecollar is used in OB and then for apprehension? Do you couple it with leash corrections or substitute it for them? Do you use the nick or continuous button? Are corrections given automatically or only when the dog fails to perform a command. Do you give some warning before pressing the button?


i'm thinking that it was not coupled with leash corrections. the button is pushed until the dog lets go, so continuous. no automatic corrections. no warning. it goes: command, compliance. if no compliance, the dog gets a zap. the amount of time between command and compliance is probably a second. any longer than that and the dog gets zapped.

this was then coupled with: when the dog complies either with or without a correction, the dog gets a reward bite on the recall (handler protection). it was only when this was added that consistent performance was achieved with my current dog.

edit: are you planning on doing any seminars up in this area again? i really wanted to go to the one is sac, but logistically, i couldn't do it (bring your own decoy, cost of protection dog entry)...


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## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

Tim Martens said:


> i'm thinking that it was not coupled with leash corrections. the button is pushed until the dog lets go, so continuous. no automatic corrections. no warning. it goes: command, compliance. if no compliance, the dog gets a zap. the amount of time between command and compliance is probably a second. any longer than that and the dog gets zapped.


This usually works. But at times it doesn't. Some dogs bounce off the bite because the stim level is too high. It's hard to get some of them to bite again. It usually takes about three weeks of work and by then the call off is gone. 

Some dogs, and you've probably seen them, simply bite harder and power through the pain. When that happens some trainers just turn the Ecollar up until they run out of room on the dial. Then they try two Ecollars. Then they try a hot stick. They some will go to a cattle prod. At that level we're well into animal abuse. 



Tim Martens said:


> This was then coupled with: when the dog complies either with or without a correction, the dog gets a reward bite on the recall (handler protection). it was only when this was added that consistent performance was achieved with my current dog.


I'm not a fan of "reward bites." That language alone can get you into lots of trouble when testifying. It can also make it dangerous for other people or officers who are in the vicinity. It can happen that a dog gets in the habit of getting an immediate rebite as soon as he releases the bite he's been sent on. If he releases a bad guy on command he may turn and look for his next bite. If that's an officer who happens to be afraid of dogs, there can be problems. 



Tim Martens said:


> edit: are you planning on doing any seminars up in this area again? i really wanted to go to the one is sac, but logistically, i couldn't do it (bring your own decoy, cost of protection dog entry)...


I don't have a schedule for the seminars. The happen when someone wants to see the work first hand and they set one up. If you want the details, let's go to private email.


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

the secondary, or "reward bite" is only given every time in the beginning. after the dog is consistently coming off the bite and coming back for the handler protection, a bite may not be given. a tug may be substituted and sometimes, no reward at all. mixing it up, as with anything, is key.


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## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

Tim Martens said:


> the secondary, or "reward bite" is only given every time in the beginning. after the dog is consistently coming off the bite and coming back for the handler protection, a bite may not be given. a tug may be substituted and sometimes, no reward at all. mixing it up, as with anything, is key.


I know this Tim but lots of people never wean the dog off this training. It becomes a habit and it's what they do every time they give their dog a bite in training. 

But even for those who plan to do this, if a confrontation happens to occur in the middle of that training, since few people (no one that I know) take a dog out of service while it's being done, it can happen while the dog is learning to release. It takes a couple of weeks, months with some dogs before this training is concluded and the dog is weaned off the second bite. 

I'm also not a fan of using a tug, a ball or any other kind of toy to reward a dog when he releases a bite. I think it gets the dog ready for play, rather than keeping him ready for combat. Usually when the dog is given a command to release the bite the fight is over, but not always. I don't think that dogs need to be rewarded for releasing their bites, it's just part of what's expected of them and I've never had much trouble getting them to do so. I teach an attitude of cooperation and teamwork rather than a master-slave relationship and it seems to work pretty well.


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

Lou Castle said:


> I don't think that dogs need to be rewarded for releasing their bites, it's just part of what's expected of them and I've never had much trouble getting them to do so.
> 
> I teach an attitude of cooperation and teamwork rather than a master-slave relationship and it seems to work pretty well.


those two statements seem to be a bit contradictory...

as for the ball/tug thing bringing a dog into play...i think that comes down to dog selection. if you have a dog that would rather play with a ball or tug than engage a suspect, the problem is the dog and not the training. if the dog can't switch from play to "combat" that would seem to me to be a temperament/drive issue. 

again, i'm not saying a finished dog should be getting these rewards every time they let go. as the dog progresses in it's training, it should be weened off and occasionally given to reinforce the out command.

i didn't have to use this technique with my previous dogs. a bit of compulsion (e-collar) and that was that. i feel like that was much more of a "master-slave" relationship than the current motivational technique that i've used...


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Lou Castle said:


> I'm not a big fan of doing it this way. It's usually not a problem with most Mals but more sensitive dogs such as GSD's, won't go out again after hitting the end of the line hard. They usually will if you take off the line but then they don't stop. Put the line back on and they either won't go out or they go out a little way and then anticipate the correction, slow down, sometimes stop and sometimes return to the handler.


Afortunally for me, I certainly don´t work GSD´s......
If a dog can´t handle this, it isn´t a dog we want to work...he isn´t suitable for KNPV or (in the end) PSD in Holland.


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> As far as avoiding anticipation, that is finding the balance. Not always so easy for me.:smile:


We don´t avoid anticipation We work through it. Don´t go for a bite when I tell you so, stop halfway when i said you must go, return before I call: all are being corrected. It is not desired behavour and all not desired behavour (don´t out when told, go around jump instead of go over it) is corrected, when a dogs knows the meaning of a exercise. It´s the only way, in our opinion, to teach the dog what desired or not desired behavour is.


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## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

Earlier I wrote, 



> I don't think that dogs need to be rewarded for releasing their bites, it's just part of what's expected of them and I've never had much trouble getting them to do so.
> 
> I teach an attitude of cooperation and teamwork rather than a master-slave relationship and it seems to work pretty well.





Tim Martens said:


> those two statements seem to be a bit contradictory...


Hmmm. I don't see any contradiction. The first statement talks about the necessity of rewards for releasing a bite and the second one talks about a philosophy of working the dog wherein we're equally important members of a team. 



Tim Martens said:


> as for the ball/tug thing bringing a dog into play...i think that comes down to dog selection. if you have a dog that would rather play with a ball or tug than engage a suspect, the problem is the dog and not the training.


I agree and yet we see lots of such dogs about. I've demonstrated one problem with this method of getting the out (to keep this topical, I think that before a call off can be done it's easiest if the dog will stop biting on a verbal command) many times. I've had a handler send his dog to bite me, thrown a ball and watched as the dog chased the ball, rather than bite me. One dog wanted to play fetch with me. He dropped the ball at my feet and backed up waiting for me to throw it again! 



Tim Martens said:


> if the dog can't switch from play to "combat" that would seem to me to be a temperament/drive issue.


Of course any dog that possess those drives can switch from one to the other but the point is that it takes time to do that. It's akin to letting the bad guy signal the start of the draw at the showdown. There's no sense if giving away this advantage. My method keeps the dog in combat drive the whole time so he's always ready for the fight. 



Tim Martens said:


> again, i'm not saying a finished dog should be getting these rewards every time they let go. as the dog progresses in it's training, it should be weened off and occasionally given to reinforce the out command.


With the "average dog" it takes me about 8-10 minutes to get a clean verbal out. The last two dogs I worked that had been abused with a hot stick (and one of them STILL would not release, even when it was applied to his testicles) took me about 15-20 minutes. The hardest dog, who had been abused with a cattle prod, took me 45 minutes. Of course this is not the end of the training; but these dogs had completely stopped outing with verbal commands. A couple of them had bitten their handlers for applying too much compulsion trying to get the out. 



Tim Martens said:


> i didn't have to use this technique with my previous dogs. a bit of compulsion (e-collar) and that was that. i feel like that was much more of a "master-slave" relationship than the current motivational technique that i've used...


Most handlers have a master-slave relationship with their dogs. Their word is law and commands MUST be obeyed "just because I said so." But I think that this de-emphasizes the "expertise" that each partner brings to the equation. The dog is the ONLY expert on the scent, where it's located, how strong it is and the best way to find the source. But the handler is the ONLY expert on knowing where to search (this building, this room, this car, etc.) I think searches work best if they cooperate rather than if one is completely obeisant to the other.


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## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> Afortunally for me, I certainly don´t work GSD´s......
> If a dog can´t handle this, it isn´t a dog we want to work...he isn´t suitable for KNPV or (in the end) PSD in Holland.


Mals aren't immune to this and I disagree that a dog that can't handle this "isn't suitable for KNPV or (in the end) PSD in Holland." He's not suitable when those methods that are currently in use are applied; but with methods better suited to his temperament, he'll be completely suitable. 

As regards your extension of this temperament to police dogs, what's the difference between what's needed for a police dog in Holland v. the US?


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Selena, I have a question. Now considering that you are using compulsion to teach the call off, if the dog goes halfway and looks back, you are saying that you are correcting right??

If so, could you tell me what form of correction you would use?? For some reason, I am getting confused...........been one of those weeks.


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Selena, I have a question. Now considering that you are using compulsion to teach the call off, if the dog goes halfway and looks back, you are saying that you are correcting right??
> 
> If so, could you tell me what form of correction you would use?? For some reason, I am getting confused...........been one of those weeks.


 
We use a very, very, very long line (50 m or more) untill excercise is without any errors. Making a stupid mistake like looking around,standing still, make turns, he doesn´t have to go anymore (no extra commands, no screaming, no nothing), get the line, bring the dog in like you would with a fish, punish fysically(sp?).
Fysically ´cause if we use stim it is used for not returning. Both punishment must be different, other wise dog won´t understand what your trying to make clear to him.


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## Joel Anderson (Apr 16, 2007)

Selena,

I really like the dutch methods, but they are hard to use here in the US with so many animal rights people. We have a huge problem with humanizing our dogs and not treating them like a working animal we seem to have the need to treat them as a "Family member" or "best buddy" and not a dog. Its very selective tho because if you watch a horse race you will see the jocky whip that horse a hundred times but hit that dog and you may see jail. CATTLE PROD that is the name of the device but use it on a dog and like Lou pointed out its animal abuse.. but you can shock a cow for not walking in the right direction. Feed rats or fluffy little bunny's to snakes no problem but like the guy in Phoenix did feed a puppy and go to jail like he is. Selena the dutch methods that I have witnessed are hard on the dog but teach the dog a very black and white picture and harbors a wonderful relationship with the dog. The dog is left with no question who gives the orders and who receives them and that there are fair and just cosequenses when not followed. I never once saw a dog unfairly corrected for something they did not understand. Lou I really like the articles I have read from you and would love to attend a seminar also but I dont belive that the e-collar is the end all be all. I think that every method has its time and place and the more tools in the tool box the faster a well trained mechanic can fix the problem for the long run. I like the discussion so sorry for the rant....


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## Al Curbow (Mar 27, 2006)

Selena, when you say "we" are you talking about your group of trainers? By the sound of your post it sounds like your saying everybody in Holland trains the same way? Strict compulsion works every time, no reinventing the wheel there, if it works for you and you like it, go for it.,
AL


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## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> Making a stupid mistake like looking around,standing still, make turns, he doesn´t have to go anymore (no extra commands, no screaming, no nothing), get the line, bring the dog in like you would with a fish, punish fysically(sp?).
> Fysically ´cause if we use stim it is used for not returning. Both punishment must be different, other wise dog won´t understand what your trying to make clear to him.


Selena if you pull the dog in and then punish him, isn't he being punished for coming to you? How does he know that the punishment is for not going to the decoy and biting him?


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## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

Joel Anderson said:


> Its very selective tho because if you watch a horse race you will see the jocky whip that horse a hundred times but hit that dog and you may see jail. CATTLE PROD that is the name of the device but use it on a dog and like Lou pointed out its animal abuse.. but you can shock a cow for not walking in the right direction.


I think some of this is being taken out of context. The animals mentioned are vastly different, in the thickness of their skin, the placement and sensitivity of their nerve endings and how they perceive the various tools that are under discussion. A cattle prod, for example was developed for use on an animal whose skin is so thick that we make clothing from it. They also weigh half a ton. Apply this same tool to an 80 pound dog and it's entirely different. 



Joel Anderson said:


> The dog is left with no question who gives the orders and who receives them and that there are fair and just cosequenses when not followed.


I don't know that one has to go to harsh methods to get this result. 



Joel Anderson said:


> Lou I really like the articles I have read from you and would love to attend a seminar


Thanks for the kind words. 



Joel Anderson said:


> also but I dont belive that the e-collar is the end all be all.


Me either. But for the things that it's good at, there is nothing better. If all you do is use it in place of a leash, to give corrections at a distance (or even up close) you're limited in what you can use it for.


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Joel Anderson said:


> Selena,
> 
> I really like the dutch methods, but they are hard to use here in the US with so many animal rights people. We have a huge problem with humanizing our dogs and not treating them like a working animal we seem to have the need to treat them as a "Family member" or "best buddy" and not a dog. Its very selective tho because if you watch a horse race you will see the jocky whip that horse a hundred times but hit that dog and you may see jail. CATTLE PROD that is the name of the device but use it on a dog and like Lou pointed out its animal abuse.. but you can shock a cow for not walking in the right direction. Feed rats or fluffy little bunny's to snakes no problem but like the guy in Phoenix did feed a puppy and go to jail like he is. Selena the dutch methods that I have witnessed are hard on the dog but teach the dog a very black and white picture and harbors a wonderful relationship with the dog. The dog is left with no question who gives the orders and who receives them and that there are fair and just cosequenses when not followed. I never once saw a dog unfairly corrected for something they did not understand. Lou I really like the articles I have read from you and would love to attend a seminar also but I dont belive that the e-collar is the end all be all. I think that every method has its time and place and the more tools in the tool box the faster a well trained mechanic can fix the problem for the long run. I like the discussion so sorry for the rant....


Thanks Joel, you can explain so much better than I do, ´cause i can´t find the right words. To bad you have so much trouble with it, it limits the possibilties.


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Al Curbow said:


> Selena, when you say "we" are you talking about your group of trainers? By the sound of your post it sounds like your saying everybody in Holland trains the same way? Strict compulsion works every time, no reinventing the wheel there, if it works for you and you like it, go for it.,
> AL


we=our trainingsgroup, but I know more people who train exactly the way we do it. It is comes with a choice for a certain type of dog, although it could apply to every dog if you change your dose of pressure. Most people in Holland (KNPV) try to create a black/white for the dog.

The method is very old, it is used before the e-collar came. The ecollar is a good method,and like any other tool it can be misused and it becomes animal cruelty, but if you have more in your toolbox it is easier to train the dog.


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Lou Castle said:


> Selena if you pull the dog in and then punish him, isn't he being punished for coming to you? How does he know that the punishment is for not going to the decoy and biting him?


he doesn´t come voluntary back. you force him back(and for some dogs it is punishment enough to pull them back...), punishing is for not obeying your 1 command. Send him again. If he does what you want he is the greatest dog in the world. He rewards himself with the bite. The reward is also double. 

If you make your punishment harsh, the rewards must be equaly good, training a dog has every to do with balancing. 
A dog ,every dog even the most though dogs, will always choose their advantage. And advantage is being a good boy if you do what I tell you to.
You only have to dose your punishment/rewards what fits the dog, with a very soft dog a slap in the face could be a very hard punishment..


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## Joel Anderson (Apr 16, 2007)

At the clubs I visited in Holland (about 5 or 6) They all use a very similar training methods. They differ in the very finer points but all believe in making it extremely clear to the dog what is acceptable and unacceptable behavior. Now the differant clubs seem to like thier specific lines and train to best suit that line. I think like Selena said the methods have been used for 100 years to train the best police dogs in the world and the saying "if it aint broke dont fix it" pretty accurately applies. Now we have technology and science, animal behavior studies that have taught us there are differant ways. But should we throw the old ways in the past and only use the e-collar and the clicker. There were a few articles in Hondensport Sporthonden magazine a few years ago where Klass Terpstra a multiple KNPV national champion argued that a "REAL" police dog could not be trained using only a clicker like some progressive trainer claimed. Personally I think to not accept and at least learn from each method is personally limiting ones ability to grow as a trainer. If you like Perle de Tourbière lined dogs but you have been training Van leeuwen DS for the last 10 years you better go back to school.. totally differant dogs. Lou about the cattle prod the thickness of skin makes no differance when that type of electricty is being used you can shock yourself in the arm pit (one of the thinnest areas of skin) or the ball of your calloused foot it still hurts like hell. Just we as an American society look at a cow as stupid and food but we look at dogs as members of our family. They both scream when prodded so I would have to deduct that it still hurts like hell. I think the electric collar could be the single best and worst invention ever to come to dog training. Lou how many seminars do you go to where the collar is being used as a compulsion tool only. IE to correct at med to high level for bad or unwanted behavior? I know as a PSD handler that it would have to be 80-90 percent because that is what I have personally seen. MOST people use it just like a wireless prong collar. But when a 7 high doesnt get the desired result it must be the dogs problem and the handler is worndering why the dogs bite is so frontal and the dog is so vocal on the bite and spins away from him like he has the bird flu when approached while biting. The e-collar can teach a dog an exercise faster than any other tool usually but it can destroy all the confidence and trust that dog has in its handler faster than any whip or prong when used the same way. I know I am rambling but I really believe that I can learn from EVERY training method from an AKC obediance trainer who only uses a clicker to the harshest Dutch or Belgian trainer in the world.


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Joel, we both know Klaas well. Dick knows him from the sport and as a collegue-instructor.
I know him from childhood, in the time he became several times champion he trained with my dad. In the same time period dad became champion or vice-champion and their other clubmate became also KNPV champion. 
In that same timeframe dad did also IPO and became several times champion, my mum worldchampion FCI.

About clickermethod, I think you can use it in the learningphase of (some) excercises, but only clicker won´t work with the desired type of policedog here. There was an experiment with co-operation of a dutch expert on the clicker method, which failed ´cause the "must obey" phase could´nt be reached, it stopped at the end of the learning phase. 
You have to depend on the will-to-please of the dog, if he want to sniff at the pee of a female in season when he has to search you´ll have a problem


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I think that there are types of dogs that can go the whole way to title with clicker methods, but I really think that this is not an accomplishment overall. It is going to lead us down a path that will be ruination for working dogs, as these dogs are not going to produce anything that will be very strong.

Like Labs who, in general have been bred to be able to work field trials and learn with e-collars, if people start breeding clicker only trainable dogs........big trouble in the future.

Joel, you are absolutley right about how weak stomached people are anymore. The other day they were showing dog fighting videos on the news in conjunction with that football guys case, and a woman at the bar flat out fainted and a few of the guys looked a little nauseus. There wasn't even blood for Gods sake, and they were a little miffed at me because it didn't affect me.

Apparently my head isn't were it belongs.......in the sand.


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## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

Earlier I wrote, 



> Selena if you pull the dog in and then punish him, isn't he being punished for coming to you? How does he know that the punishment is for not going to the decoy and biting him?





Selena van Leeuwen said:


> he doesn´t come voluntary back. you force him back(and for some dogs it is punishment enough to pull them back...), punishing is for not obeying your 1 command.


You're punishing him at the spot where he stopped and THEN pulling him back. I guess I thought that you pulled him back and THEN punished him. Makes more sense now. Thanks.


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## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

Joel Anderson said:


> Lou about the cattle prod the thickness of skin makes no differance when that type of electricty is being used you can shock yourself in the arm pit (one of the thinnest areas of skin) or the ball of your calloused foot it still hurts like hell.


The difference in the thickness of the skin of a human are not comparable to the differences in the thickness of the skin of a dog and a cow. It also has to do with the conductivity of the skin as well. 



Joel Anderson said:


> They both scream when prodded so I would have to deduct that it still hurts like hell.


I used to be around rodeos a lot and have seen hundreds of bulls simply walk away when hit with a cattle prod. No vocalization at all. I've also seen hundreds of cattle branded with the application of a red hot iron. They ALL vocalized and struggled to get away. I've never seen a dog hit with a cattle prod or a hot stick that didn't vocalize and move quickly away from it. 

This leads me to believe that the cattle prod to a bull is nowhere near as painful as it is to a dog. 

Using a cattle prod on a dog is abuse; especially since there's no need for it. I've never failed to get a dog to call off or release a bite and never needed to use anything more than a standard Ecollar. 



Joel Anderson said:


> Lou how many seminars do you go to where the collar is being used as a compulsion tool only. IE to correct at med to high level for bad or unwanted behavior?


Most of the people that I come across use it this way. They train the behaviors using other methods and then use the Ecollar as an invisible leash, to give corrections for when the dog does not comply. 

But I think that there's a far better way to use it and that is to start by teaching the behaviors with it at low levels of stim. But that's another topic.


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## Joel Anderson (Apr 16, 2007)

Selena,

You know Klass much better than I. I have had the pleasure of having him help to teach me the proper dutch decoying technique and also had the pleasure of his personal dog knocking me down. I try and see him and Erwin every trip I take and visit Rotterdam. I am hoping to get to the KLPD this next trip and meet all the guys up there. I may be going there for a week or two on an exchange with the PD. Klass helped get me my first dutch bred dog. a Rudo/Naomi breeding from van Vulpen about 4 years ago one of his last breedings from what I understand. I will have to make sure to let you know when I make the next trip and maybe I can buy you and your husband a drink


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Joel, now I/we even better understand how you got your knowledge about dutch trainingstechniques. Both Erwin as Klaas train almost the same, at least same principles, as we do. Both learned it from my dad, we still learn from him (at least I do... from him and Dick, if they discuss something, usually they think the same way.)
Let us know and the drink will be done :wink:


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## Erik Berg (Apr 11, 2006)

But how do you adapt the training to the individual dog if he is put on a long line and runs at the end of the line and corretcs himself on a prong, wich obviously is a hard correction for most dogs I guess. Or is this only done with certain types of dogs?


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

If the dog is smart, and, remember, he already knows what the here command means, he doesn´t get any correction :wink:

For my all of my dogs it isn´t an extreme hard correction, hard enough to get the message, but not one the have problems with after receiving it.


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## Simon Mellick (Oct 31, 2006)

Erik Berg said:


> But how do you adapt the training to the individual dog if he is put on a long line and runs at the end of the line and corretcs himself on a prong, wich obviously is a hard correction for most dogs I guess. Or is this only done with certain types of dogs?


This is the one and only time i've ever used those rubber caps you can buy to put on the prongs. A flat collar wasn't enough, and I worried about a 30' sprint into a bare prong collar.


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