# Question about retarding a puppies natural abilities.



## Julia Tompson (Mar 27, 2006)

After reading a book that involved years of research on dog behavior and more spefically working guide dogs... the Author made the claim that that a puppy raised with its mother to adulthood could *never* be successfully trained The author does not go into details as to why.  

Since I am keeping a puppy for training, I am now wondering if my puppy is doomed from the start just because the pup will be raised with his mother. 

Do any of you know from experience if thise is true?


----------



## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Julia Tompson said:


> After reading a book that involved years of research on dog behavior and more spefically working guide dogs... the Author made the claim that that a puppy raised with its mother to adulthood could *never* be successfully trained The author does not go into details as to why.
> 
> Since I am keeping a puppy for training, I am now wondering if my puppy is doomed from the start just because the pup will be raised with his mother.
> 
> Do any of you know from experience if thise is true?


Did the author mean ALL kinds of training?


----------



## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Here are different dogs with mummy still around, no problems...BUT my dogs are kenneled.


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Julia, the reason behind this is because one will always become very dominant to the other. Same with raising two litteremates together. I did that some 40 yrs ago and I multiplied the problem by having the larges, most dominant male pup in the litter, and the runt female that was bullied by the rest of the litter. As they aged, the male became more and more dominant, and the female became more and more submissive. These submissive dogs never develope the character/confidence to become solid at many things. 
They also found that two pups raised together, same age, from different litters, don't always have this problem. No reason found for that. 
As Selena said, she has no problems, but her dogs are kenneled. It's the interaction between the dogs that can create this situation. If you want a really good working dog, it should be kept to a limited amount of interaction with other dogs while it's a pup. No matter how hard you try, a new pup will bond more closly to another dog then it will with people. 
I would limit their time together until the pup is AT LEAST 7-8 months old. Even then, the pup should get much more time spent training/bonding with you then it does other dogs.


----------



## Julia Tompson (Mar 27, 2006)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Did the author mean ALL kinds of training?


The book, The New Knowledge of Dog Behavior, by Clarence Pfaffengerger was about dog behavior in general and how the authors research into dog behavior and dog learning helped him develop better testing methods and breed better Seeing Eye dogs. 

QUOTING THE BOOK: \"dominance in a litter is an interesting thing to watch. At Bar Harbor it was found that if there are males in the litter the biggest male becomes the dominant one. If the litter is entirely female, it is not necessarily the biggest female but the one who talks the most. At San Rafael, besides the experience of having over aggressiveness develop in dogs who did not remain under the mother's disciple long enough, we have some bad effects from overlong canine socialization. I cannot remember a single dog who was raised with her mother to adulthood who could be successfully trained for a Guide Dog. Where two litter mates are raised in the same home we have had the same results. 

Puppies raised in homes where there are dogs not related to them have never been affected this way by the association with others. This is a field which has not yet been sufficiently researched, but it certainly offers worthwhile, serious study. In the case of two litter mates raised together, one becomes a successful candidate for Guide Dog work and one fails, even if their aptitude tests were equal. \"

I am assuming that this can transfer to almost any kind of working dog... since the statement above was made to include many different types of dogs including GSD, Labs, terriers, etc...


----------



## Julia Tompson (Mar 27, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> Julia, the reason behind this is because one will always become very dominant to the other. Same with raising two litteremates together. I did that some 40 yrs ago and I multiplied the problem by having the largest, most dominant male pup in the litter, and the runt female that was bullied by the rest of the litter. As they aged, the male became more and more dominant, and the female became more and more submissive. These submissive dogs never develope the character/confidence to become solid at many things.
> They also found that two pups raised together, same age, from different litters, don't always have this problem. No reason found for that.
> As Selena said, she has no problems, but her dogs are kenneled. It's the interaction between the dogs that can create this situation. If you want a really good working dog, it should be kept to a limited amount of interaction with other dogs while it's a pup. No matter how hard you try, a new pup will bond more closly to another dog then it will with people.
> I would limit their time together until the pup is AT LEAST 7-8 months old. Even then, the pup should get much more time spent training/bonding with you then it does other dogs.


Thank you Bob for clarifying that as the book doesn't :!: :lol: 

I am so glad I found this out now and not a year from now when I couldn't get the puppy to work.. What a waste that would have been. That is a really good thing to know. If I hadn't read this book I probably would have housed them together and not thought a thing of it. 

Phew... a catastrophe avoided. :lol:


----------



## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Bob thank you for typing this..it´s exactly what I mean but couldn´t find the words!

After dividing the pups can interact with mum and the other dogs through the fence. Playing with the other dogs indeed from aprox 7 mo. Till that time I´m mummy, littermate and playmate al togheter. :lol: They learn who is the boss, without training though..till they´re 8 mo they only learn their name, hier (come) and nee (no).


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

\"Bad effects from overlong CANINE association\". That's one of the keys. A dog bred to work with man, such as a seeing eye dog, MUST have a strong bond with its' handler. If the bond with the other dog is to strong, the dog may not be relyable with it's human. A dog lacking in strong human bonding can't be relied upon to be a good working companion. 
I Don't know if I'm explaining this well.


----------



## Julia Tompson (Mar 27, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> \"...I Don't know if I'm explaining this well.


I think your doing a fine job. I just want to clarify for myself that the \"Bad effects from overlong CANINE association\" would be true for *any* work or sporting dog if a strong bond with the handler is required, is that correct?

I promise one day I will not ask so many questions. :lol:


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I would say that is correct. Now, I'll also say that it doesn't mean that you CAN'T train the dog for work or sport. To many people with multiple dog housholds will argue with me over that. You just probably wont get the highest level of success out of the dog. I myself have always has multiple dogs. I've also made a habit of spending tons of time with them as individuals. 
NEVER stop asking questions! That's how we learn. I drive my Schutzhund TD crazy with all my questions. One of the people at the club onced asked me if I had a mute button. He WAS laughing though. ADHD DOES have it's benifits. :lol: :lol: :wink:


----------



## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> .......NEVER stop asking questions! That's how we learn. ........


I meant to answer that same thing but forgot. Talk about ADHD.


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Selena, why do you wait till they are older to do any training? That seems to be more common in Europe. I just feel there are soooo many things that can be imprinted on puppys at a very early age. Training with fun and games does wonders for them. No stress, no compulsion. Just fun games to learn, and bonding. 
By 12-14 wks, my GSD had already been in planes, helicoptors, boats, gun club, etc. By 7 months, he was on a sleeve. All motivational work!
At 2+yrs, he now is getting defence work. Absolutely no fear!


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I might add that show breeders separate their pups for the same reasons. There is nothing worse then seeing a beautiful dog running around the ring, being very submissive to the other dogs. I've put a CH on 4 different terrier breeds. A terrier without attitude is NOT a terrier.


----------



## Julia Tompson (Mar 27, 2006)

Thanks again Bob. That book really was an eye opener about many different aspects of dog aptitude, genetic inheritance, linebreeding and the critical learning phases. I plan to start playful training after 21 day  . I am looking for the retriever in the group. 

After reading this book I had initial questions about whether the research was still valid. Last night I curled up with a new book, Schutzhund: Theory and Training Methods. I was happy to see the Author started the book right off by referencing, summarizing and clarifying Pfaffenbergers and Dr. Scotts research and how it impacts other sporting / working dog training. 

It was neat that Pfaffebberger, was able to determine that puppies before the age of 12 weeks that possess the natural desire to retrieve prove to be dogs that have the strongest desire and willingness to please their owner, and is the most notable predictor of a dogs working potential. 

It was also interesting that he was able to determine that dogs that initially tested well did not go on to pass the training if they were deprived socialization after 12 weeks of age because these dogs did not develop the confidence to exercise independent judgment.

I definitely give the book 2 thumbs up!


----------



## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> Selena, why do you wait till they are older to do any training? That seems to be more common in Europe. I just feel there are soooo many things that can be imprinted on puppys at a very early age. Training with fun and games does wonders for them. No stress, no compulsion. Just fun games to learn, and bonding.
> By 12-14 wks, my GSD had already been in planes, helicoptors, boats, gun club, etc. By 7 months, he was on a sleeve. All motivational work!
> At 2+yrs, he now is getting defence work. Absolutely no fear!


Our opinion is that if you start to early you probrably take away to much of his own identity..we´re both persons who will lay pretty much pressure on a dog (husband more than I), if you do this to early you will\"break\" a puppy.

We (or actually me..) play a lot with the puppies, they´re taken to all diffrent places, Dick´s work where they see slippery floors and things. They are going with us to club from 6-7 weeks old, see the decoy, hear the shots etc. At that time there leashed on a spot, where they can see and hear everything but are not to close.
Sleeve biting (baby sleeve)begins at 12 weeks, with a pause while they´re teething. 

I start training ob about 8 mo., motivational with biteroll later on I will do thing more forced. Dick starts at 1 year or older and more forced than I do. This is for me based on my (non-) fysical capacity..i´m 1.60 m and 55 kg... so a dog must not be to strong before i start. Dick is fysically stronger than i´m, so he can do it different than i.

Hopes this makes it a little bit clearer, i have difficulties to translate what i mean  sorry.


----------



## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Selena, thanks for explaining this so well. This is how I've beeen taught, too. With my dogs, no ob until they are older for the exact reasons you posted. I wasn't sure why it works, but I do know, dogs that learn ob later, seem to do it in the more drivey fashion than what you see in AKC obedience. Also, for pups, I work on tracking a lot. I prefer to get them really set in tracking, then biting the sleeve, then work in the obedience. For now, only ob commands are no, sitz, platz, & get the hell out of the trash :lol:


----------

