# Hard Dogs Need Hard Tools



## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

I hear alot about how hard or tough dogs NEED hard corrections or tough tools, like prong or e-collars, to "make" them do the commands. Unless the dog has a screw loose, I have NEVER found this to be the case and I have owned and worked hard critters!

Communication and direction which are done in a firm and understanding mode, along with marker training and spot on rewards seem to do best. I love the macho mindset of yank the life out of the dog or fry it with an e-collar to get the job done. If these folks ever had to function in the public school system and did the same thing, they would be locked down for life!!!

Breaking the parts down to understandable levels and being a leader means MOST things, animal or human, will respond... 

Maybe I'm just out of touch here...:-({|=


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## Ted Summers (May 14, 2012)

Was there a particular comment somewhere that precipitated this thread or are you responding to 'common knowledge?'

I know a guy that likes his dogs "a little crazy." He feels like if they don't fight for what they want via handler aggression or be willing to claw through drywall and cinder blocks to get a tug, there're a lost cause. Further, he "likes to correct them" till they get pissed enough to "eat your face." :-o He likes 'hard dogs' and likes sharpened pinch collars and e-collars on full blast. 

I've seen "hard" dogs that are corrected by removing the object of desire. They then take out their frustration on the Decoy.... as they should :lol:. They never get the chance to show handler aggression. Do what I want.... you get what you want. I'm not going to _MAKE_ you do it but you're not going to get it either. The frustration the release on the decoy is great :lol:. 

I don't think you're outa' touch, I think things have...... progressed/advanced.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Most of the people I know that use e-collars never come close to "frying their dogs" with them. With the cost and range of the modern remote trainer anyone that only or usually use one to "fry their dog" is a fool IMO


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Howard, I don't know what a hard dog is. Just because a dog can take a lot of punishment doesn't necessarily mean doing so reveals it to be the correct or appropriate method for teaching the dog. Conversely I've seen relatively responsive and biddable dogs given repetitive, nagging corrections of varying levels simply by virtue of a handlers specific training style. I'll end my comments here because anything else I may say will probably come off sounding uneducated or judgemental. I've not been in the working dog world long enough to have anything else of value to add to this topic. Not that what I said was very meaningful anyway...


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## Peter Cho (Apr 21, 2010)

hard what? hard on handler or hard on helper? and when? 
Hard does not mean tough.

in any case, a "hard" dog requires smarter training, not harsh methods. 

A hard dog requires VERY clear handler. A better handler.

E collar is the most humane way to softly teach your dog. 

You don't fry your partner (dog). It is not how it is used. The collar should made the dog happy. It is fun time. If your dogs does not see this, you are doing it wrong.


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## Ricky Mav (Jul 28, 2011)

Peter Cho said:


> hard what? hard on handler or hard on helper? and when?
> Hard does not mean tough.
> 
> in any case, a "hard" dog requires* smarter training, not harsh methods. *
> ...


Nice!


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## Jay Quinn (Apr 1, 2012)

you know what? BOTH of those tools are capable of being used AT VERY LOW LEVELS to make things CLEAR AND CONCISE to a dog... 

you don't have to crank a prong collar to get an effective result... and you don't have to fry a dog with an E collar... 

i used a prong on my youngest dog to tidy up his obedience after he was taught with luring and marking... i held the leash between my index finger and thumb, and the corrections were very gentle, but much more precise that what is able to be given with a check chain, and clear in the dogs' head as a correction, vs simply a tug on a flat collar that he is going to ignore... 

i switched to an E collar for one of my boys after we had some training issues surface, that were mostly likely caused by a yank-and-crank PREVIOUS handler (NOT ME!)... you know what? the collar i have here has 127 levels... I HAVE NEVER HAD TO TAKE MY DOG OVER LEVEL 30! and he is most frequently worked between levels 8-16... I CANNOT FEEL THESE LEVELS WHEN HOLDING THE COLLAR IN MY HAND!


and you know what? abuse is perfectly possible with a flat collar, too!


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

A "hard" dog can still be a very clear headed dog. I don't believe that being a "hard" dog in itself requires dealing out "hard" corrections.
I've never understood why some one would like a dog that wants to fight with them. Does that mean the dog is tough, poor temperament or the handler just isn't fair in his corrections?! Seems a little to Freudian for me. Maybe even a little S&M. JMHO of course. :twisted: :wink:


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

I like one that handles a correction, when it's JUST in it's application. Not wanting a dog to challenge the leadership, correction, or direction. I've seen dogs have their leash stepped on, think it's a correction and shut down.

I see hard dogs as strong dogs, one that can work through tough issues, handle corrections, and are willing to please. I've given low/harsh verbals and my dog understands the behavior wasn't proper.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Nicole Stark said:


> Howard, I don't know what a hard dog is. Just because a dog can take a lot of punishment doesn't necessarily mean doing so reveals it to be the correct or appropriate method for teaching the dog. Conversely I've seen relatively responsive and biddable dogs given repetitive, nagging corrections of varying levels simply by virtue of a handlers specific training style. I'll end my comments here because anything else I may say will probably come off sounding uneducated or judgemental. I've not been in the working dog world long enough to have anything else of value to add to this topic. Not that what I said was very meaningful anyway...


It is meaningful. 

What really is a "hard dog". I have a dog that from his first bite at 9 months, hit hard, was never shy of the decoy. The decoy changed the young dog sleeve to adult sleeve at the first session and was amazed at his confidence.

This dog was wary of small children and females as a pup but was very happy to meet large men when I took him out for a roam around a small town. (I wasn't adverse to this either:grin.

However, I began to realise that this dog was a product of " what the pup has not encountered, he is wary of". At the breeders, the big men were numerous - the women and children visitors were not.

His career could have been great but as a pup he ducked when I applied pressure. Dumb as I was, I stopped it.

He is more or less anti-social - would fight anyone who would apply pain to him - I only have to stand behind him :grin:

He is controllable, especiallly out of the house and garden - within he has to be controlled. He is also very possessive.

A friend of ours came round the other night and he bust open the door to the dining room, whilst I was cooking, revered the visitor and laid down by his side and went to sleep.

What is a hard dog?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Howard Gaines III said:


> I see hard dogs as strong dogs, one that can work through tough issues, handle corrections, *and are willing to please.* I've given low/harsh verbals and my dog understands the behavior wasn't proper.


willing to please you or themselves? J/k sort of ..

I dont look at willingness to please as a factor when considering hardness, personally. a dog does not have to be willing to please to be a HARD dog in my book.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

You can't change people, always. But I think we all have an obligation to try to help people that are rough on their dogs for no reason. 

The bottom line is, it's someone's dog and they may treat it as their child or property and what I think doesn't matter to them. If I can produce better results with less stress and pain for the dog and they are willing to listen. great. Some dogs do need harder correction or much patience to get past bad training. I am not against a hard correction if it speeds the process along to where I want the dog to be. Understanding that in his world with me, there are consequences both good and bad for his actions. I am against hard corrections to no good end.

I don't socialize or talk much with people you describe. If you stand close to them, or even to talk to them, someone may mistake you for being in their circle of belief. That is just a fact of life in a world filled with people that can't actually see what they look at.

I don't think you are out of touch....but, I don't think you really stated a clear opinion or asked a question, actually, to judge whether you are out of touch or not. 




Howard Gaines III said:


> I hear alot about how hard or tough dogs NEED hard corrections or tough tools, like prong or e-collars, to "make" them do the commands. Unless the dog has a screw loose, I have NEVER found this to be the case and I have owned and worked hard critters!
> 
> Communication and direction which are done in a firm and understanding mode, along with marker training and spot on rewards seem to do best. I love the macho mindset of yank the life out of the dog or fry it with an e-collar to get the job done. If these folks ever had to function in the public school system and did the same thing, they would be locked down for life!!!
> 
> ...


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## Jay Quinn (Apr 1, 2012)

i think the main problem is that as soon as someone even mentions a prong or E collar the automatic assumption is that the handler has turned the corrections up to 11....... more often than not these days that's NOT the case.... 

i work a street dog... i require that the dog MUST comply with certain commands, no ifs no buts - if we screw up it's not just losing points - someone is going to get HURT... i don't have the time to just keep removing the reward in training until the dog realises he has to comply to get the reward... i also have to deal with complete idiots on a daily basis who do totally random and utterly stupid things in front of my dog... i've had months of training set back or undone because of said random idiots... 

my dog is TAUGHT the commands positively first... but then once the command is KNOWN, must learn that there are consequences for deliberate disobedience... the correction is proportional to the stuff up, for lack of a better way of putting it... but the dog is built up to it and most of the time small, low level corrections at low levels of distraction are enough to proof the command... and a higher level of correction is usually not required....


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Howard,

As already said, a sharpened prong or e-collar can be applied properly. It is far better than having a dog, not obeying you and yanking him on a flat collar or a fur saver. It's not only hard dogs that need correction. Dogs with an almost crazy drive to get to the decoy need to be corrected and if you have had to deal with this then I wonder how you did it?

Dogs that after you throw out the dumbbell want to run after it, can be quickly checked by a light prong tug or e-collar application. It is a well known fact that dogs in drive can be corrected with less worry about their "sensitive natures".

There is a saying in German "Lieber ein Ende mit Schrecken als ein Schrecken ohne Ende".

It is betterto make a painful break than to draw out the agony.

My favourite, not personal, though is:

I would rather be an honest sinner than a lying hypocrite.

Where is this thread leading us to actually? 

I treat my dogs fairly, hard or not, I have no "guilt trip" to go down.


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## Ted Summers (May 14, 2012)

True story. My Mali needs more juice in drive..... It's the equivalent to rasing your voice to talk over the barking. He'll still pay attention, I just don't think he can feel the lower drive stim settings when he's all amped up. Thats why those things have nobs . he normally works around the house and in public between 12 and 25 and high drive can go up to 55-60 (Dogtra Edge by the way)


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Ted Summers said:


> True story. My Mali needs more juice in drive.....


Was thinking *V8*...back to focus.:|


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