# Can he be saved



## Patrick Cheatham (Apr 10, 2006)

I had a co-worker ask me today to work with her 18 month old rotti.
It seems she was introduced to a person who was supposed to help her train her dog for protection. So whats wrong with that someone is saying. Here it is!

She didn't do good research of the person and here is what she got.

1st session- Handler grabbed to see dogs response, dog challenged inside owners car to judge response. Dog agitated until he chases trainer bites sleve and leg on bite suite. dog put on back tie and challenged until he bites.

2nd and third sessions more of the same. At the end of the third session and some $ later. Your dog sucks and is not cut out for this. He's a fear biter and no more.
The problem now is she has a dog thats going nutts when you approach her car. Charging people who make quick moves or that are running including kids. And a dog owner who has little to no experience. 

It ticks me off that people will do this damage of creating a loaded gun and say oh well. Can his behavior be corrected or will he have to be put down. TIME WILL TELL!!!!!


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Where is the foundation of biting? Where were the environmentals? Three sessions and you have a whack job guarding the car...GREAT! Fixed, maybe if you go back to the basics and figure out bite work foundations...And yes, we work with Rotties.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

PPD trainers that train for defence and this is what you get. Lessons have been learned now by the dog. He feels everyone is out to kick his butt. Can he overcome this? It would take a very good trainer but I doubt it will happen. Crap trainers turn good dogs to crap dogs. The apple won't fall far from the tree.


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

Patrick Cheatham said:


> I had a co-worker ask me today to work with her 18 month old rotti.
> It seems she was introduced to a person who was supposed to help her train her dog for protection. So whats wrong with that someone is saying. Here it is!
> 
> She didn't do good research of the person and here is what she got.
> ...


 
Sounds like 90% of the "Personal Protection Training" out there..........sad


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## Butch Cappel (Aug 12, 2007)

It is already understood that the person working this dog, had no business working this dog! 

That said, I believe the question was fixability? If that is correct I would only venture to say that if a human caused the problem, only a human NOT as smart as the original human could NOT fix the dog.

The dog living with humans, only understands the correct actions to take, in any given situation, from what a human shows him. If one person showed him bad behavior for a situation, then another human can show him proper behavior and if they can communicate with the dog they can reshape the behavior. 

I am reading about dogs used in the Egyptian armies around 4500 BC. If they could control their dogs in battle and then in Tutankhamuns palace, I think modern man should be able to also. After all they didn't even have a nerve or Drive to choose from! 

Just be a little smarter than the dog, problem solved.


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## Candy Eggert (Oct 28, 2008)

Butch Cappel said:


> It is already understood that the person working this dog, had no business working this dog! .


Was Emillio in South Carolina?!?!?


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

Candy Eggert said:


> Was Emillio in South Carolina?!?!?


LMAO!


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

IF, is a big word. 

It sounds to me ,without seeing this dog, that he has been pushed to the extream. To the point of no return. Time would only be the factor that would rehab this behavior with this dog IF at all possible. Time to build trust, time to reshape this behavior. There are kids involved according to the OP. Is this dog worth it? He's to the point to where everyone is now considered bad to him. This is due to the trainer who knows nothing except to get a dog to display aggresion thru defence with very little consideration of what he is doing and to what he is doing to the dogs nerves, if the dog had any.

Anything can be fixed, but can it be fixed to where the dog is reliable? I don't think I would take that chance.


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## Becky Shilling (Jul 11, 2006)

"The problem now is she has a dog thats going nutts when you approach her car. 
+ 
Charging people who make quick moves or that are running including kids. And a dog owner who has little to no experience. "
= 
recipe for lawsuits/facial reconstructive surgery/mangled little kid or adult and more fuel to the "let's ban all dogs" fire.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

If it only took 3 sessions to make this dog unsalvable then I would question it's nerves/stability in the first place. I've seen dogs go through a lot more then this and come out if it OK with some rehab/retraining. But they were also very genetically sound to begin with.

The owner needs to find a trainer who knows what they are doing, start working with the dog and keep the dog under control (ie on a leash, in a secure kennel, etc) at ALL times. Make the rules black and white (going after kids is a HUGE no), and start a desensitization program. Only after some time will they know if the dog can be salvaged. If they can't do this they need to either turn the dog over to someone who can, or euthanize the dog.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

I agree Kadi. If the desire of this dog was to be PPD as I think it was, then it won't be much if it can't be around the family and it not do what it's doing now. The liability is to great for me to even consider this dog now. To me it's a wash out.


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

To me, the biggest issue is the owner and her lack of experience. If she wants to do the work, all good, but if she wants someone to do it for her, or wants you to wave your magic dog training wand and fix her problem dog...???? 

About the dog... he may be salvageable with a good trainer who can build him back up again to being comfortable in his own skin, and not feeling like the world is out to get him. But it also depends on how committed the owner is to working with her dog and working with the trainer.

The owner needs to realize that the dog is not a good candidate to be a PPD, though he can still present an intimidating image, just because he's a rotti. Working on obedience, and being really careful about the situations that the dog is in may be what the dog needs. He may never be the kind of dog that can hang out at a family gathering, but if the owner wants to keep him, and is willing to work with him, no reason he can't be a good companion.


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

i think that was very well-said, leslie. it'll come down to owner-committment (sp?).


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Jerry Lyda said:


> ...Anything can be fixed, but can it be fixed to where the dog is reliable? I don't think I would take that chance.


I like this statement...like a broken bottle. You can mend the pieces but the damge has been done. Once loaded with bad training you don't get a "do over" here! You either move on with what you have and learn at the dog's expense or ...

This is the very reason why folks MUST look into the background and style of any dog trainer or club. Too much defense on the wrong dog can ruin them for life. Some things can be cleaned up, but at what cost to the dog!!!:-k


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## Patrick Cheatham (Apr 10, 2006)

Well I "STRONGLY" agree with Jerry and Howard. Which is why the advice I gave to her was. 

1) Introduced her to someone who has a lot more experience than I with this type of behavior. (she's probably not going to give up the dog)

2) Make her aware that the behavior may can be brought under control.
The real question is how much "RISK" are you willing to assume. Considering the fact he has already tried to bite one kid. Growled and charged people that he is some what familer with.

3) I know he's her baby in her words: But until he knows who is running the show. Like I said its a loaded gun in a kids hand, nothing good will come of it.

He is good with her small child and he is some what obedient when someone has the lead that knows how to handle it. In other words he followed commands better for us than her. To her credit she loves the breed and thought she was bringing him up right. Lots of walks at the park, dog park play (which I told her bad idea when she got him).
But some people just think its the best thing ever. 

I told her yesterday if he were mine I would never trust him around kids, or off lead again. ITS JUST TO GREAT A RISK FOR ME. 
115 lb dog - small kid = bad day for all involved.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Patrick how was the dog's overall behavior BEFORE any training went into it? Shy, shy-sharp, fearful, good natured???


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

I had an ESS that was "not right" and for 14 years I kept her separated from the kids unless I was right there, though I did spend time with her, because she would glass over and start snapping if she got stressed. In retrospect, putting that dog to sleep would have been best for all. 

All in the idea of "commitment" - committment is why I still give my dysplastic dog a good life but will let her go when it gets bad. And commitment is a hard thing for many to breach because it is also a life lesson to your kids - but even in a committed relationship you gotta know when to walk. With her child being small, it is going to be easier to let go of the dog now than when that child gets older and "attached"

Maybe you need to get into her heart to understand where she is coming from. I don't trust my own dogs [who have never given me one moment of concern] unsupervised around my grandkids. She may need a reality check on what a dog like this *can* do in an instant.


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## Patrick Cheatham (Apr 10, 2006)

I don't know........ The only time I saw it was shortly after she bought it as a pup. He does seem a little fearful or shy now. He jumps when you walk up to him and spooks to easy to me. But was ok once he was handled for a few minutes.

She's going to try some sessions with one of the other guy's. But since I work with her. I'm sure she will be asking a ton of questions at work.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Any chance that dog was "trained" with very high levels of e-collar use as a bad guy came near the window?


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## Patrick Cheatham (Apr 10, 2006)

I have no idea: But when I heard on the news that a guy had gotten bitten at the same park by a rotti on the news I thought it was him. Turns out it wasn't but another couple walking their's. And when they went by a guy on the walking path. 

The dog turned and bite the guy in the stomach. Sad enough no! The couple ran off while the guy was calling 911. So now he has to take rabies shots unless these people come forward. Its just a matter of time unless the dog I first posted gets some good help.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Funny how the assumption is always the dog is a piece of shit. : )

yes, it can be fixed. This is not brain surgery at all. I am not sure how many of you call yourselves dog trainers when a retard problem like this comes along.

Of course, the first thing the dog is gonna do is take out the child. The liability is so high......or not a one of you could train your way out of a wet paper bag.

Have you tried OH lets say, the old hot dog routine ??? EVERYONE has a hot dog and give it to this dog and they have enough experience to ignore him if he tries the tough guy routine ???

It was three ****ing sessions. And you get pissed when I call you guys on your bullshit.

I will leave you with this, as I am embarrassed that the best you could come up with was liability and the child is gonna get taken out. If you are good at something, why do it for free ?

Pay me, and I will tell you what to do with the dog.


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## todd pavlus (Apr 30, 2008)

Brilliant, you charge $100 hr =D>=D>=D>


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

That is 1/2 hr charges. Send cash now.


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