# Puppy with dog aggression



## vicki dickey (Jul 5, 2011)

My friend has a pup-4 months-a half sister to my 4 month old-both female. She brought her to my house to let them play. Her pup had a toy and when Dani went to play her pup growled then attacked Dani. Dani defended herself somewhat until we could separate them. They continued to play in a guarded way. This past weekend my friend had two other littermates at her home to play and socialize and her pup started a fight with both of these pups who were male. Now my friend wants to bring this pup back to my home to see if she picks a fight with Dani so she can discipline her. I am not in favor of doing this for a couple of reasons. 1. I do not think I should expose Dani to this especially since I plan to show her. 2. I do not know if this is something you can "discipline" out of a dog
Has anyone had experience with a pup showing this type of aggression and can it be "fixed" and how?
And am I right in not wanting to do this with my puppy? Thank you.


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## Brittany silveira (Jun 20, 2012)

I wouldn't do it with your pup as it may cause issues for him later on.

What breed of dog is it? Before I was into sports (and a pup was acting cocky) I would allow it to hang out with one of my don't-take-no-BS adults, and let them fix the pup for me.

Edited to add: Is this pup aggressive with her too? With other adult dogs or just puppies? Is he nervous and lashing out or trying to be dominant?


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## vicki dickey (Jul 5, 2011)

The pup is an Australian Shepherd. Loves people and seems okay with older dogs. Possibily a dominant thing with other puppies but I am not sure.

I just want to add that I do not intend to allow this pup back into my home with my puippy. I just want to back up my refusal with knowledge and possibly some help for my friend and her pup. I was upset when she went after my pup Dani. Dani seemed to brush it off and it did not affect her at all. She was at a conformation trial this weekend and had no problem with other dogs in her class or around the show grounds. And a little brag here-she won her class and took best opposite sex. I do not normally show conformation but use it for puppies for show/ring expereince.
I dont want anyone to think I would ever put my pup or dogs in the way of harm. I was actually not happy that my friend would even suggest this and wanted to help out with information from knowledged dog people instead.


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## Larry Krohn (Nov 18, 2010)

vicki dickey said:


> My friend has a pup-4 months-a half sister to my 4 month old-both female. She brought her to my house to let them play. Her pup had a toy and when Dani went to play her pup growled then attacked Dani. Dani defended herself somewhat until we could separate them. They continued to play in a guarded way. This past weekend my friend had two other littermates at her home to play and socialize and her pup started a fight with both of these pups who were male. Now my friend wants to bring this pup back to my home to see if she picks a fight with Dani so she can discipline her. I am not in favor of doing this for a couple of reasons. 1. I do not think I should expose Dani to this especially since I plan to show her. 2. I do not know if this is something you can "discipline" out of a dog
> Has anyone had experience with a pup showing this type of aggression and can it be "fixed" and how?
> And am I right in not wanting to do this with my puppy? Thank you.


 
I deal with aggressive dogs including puppies a lot. I would not bring this dog back to your home. This dog needs a ton of structure now. She does not get anything for free, she works for everything. She does not have toys or food at her disposal, it only comes from owner and then owner takes away when done. This dog needs to be around well balanced dogs in a controlled environment not running free. walking side by side moving forward, not letting this dogs greet others face to face on her own. This will not be a good dog for your friend if your friend is not well experienced with this type of dog, because the aggression will only get much worse. she needs to find a trainer that has a lot of experience handling this type of dog. I'm with you, take care of your puppy and dont let yours around unstable dogs. You don't want to scar yours for life


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## Larry Krohn (Nov 18, 2010)

vicki dickey said:


> My friend has a pup-4 months-a half sister to my 4 month old-both female. She brought her to my house to let them play. Her pup had a toy and when Dani went to play her pup growled then attacked Dani. Dani defended herself somewhat until we could separate them. They continued to play in a guarded way. This past weekend my friend had two other littermates at her home to play and socialize and her pup started a fight with both of these pups who were male. Now my friend wants to bring this pup back to my home to see if she picks a fight with Dani so she can discipline her. I am not in favor of doing this for a couple of reasons. 1. I do not think I should expose Dani to this especially since I plan to show her. 2. I do not know if this is something you can "discipline" out of a dog
> Has anyone had experience with a pup showing this type of aggression and can it be "fixed" and how?
> And am I right in not wanting to do this with my puppy? Thank you.


Vicki, this is a dog I worked with that started out just like the one you are describing. The owners waited until the dog was supposed to be put down. It needs to be addressed now as a puppy not a year from now. Watch until the end

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sp8-kTW7Tl8&sns=em


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Expecting one four month old puppy to discipline another four month old puppy is retarded. Your friends puppy needs to spend some time with a stable adult dog that will teach her some manners. Human intervention in canine pack structure disputes rarely is effective ;-)


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Well disagree with the human intervention statement. My intervention amongst my own has established me as the leader and equalized the two that were a each other for the top dog position. Sounds like pup is toy/resource possessive with other dogs. I have two young corgis that have this as a trait. Agree with the NILIF approach and around older dogs that are 100% dog stable but not to be disciplined by another dog outside its pack. Personally, I see no need for puppy play sessions. Put a pack of animals together and someone will want to lead. My puppies never play with dogs outside their pack and they have been 100% non-dog reactive or aggressive. Dogs/puppies attacked enough by others can be ruined and can become defense aggressive. Have had that happened with the dog I co-own. Would not let my puppy be the guinea pig for this puppy in any way, shape or form.

Terrasita


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## vicki dickey (Jul 5, 2011)

Thomas she was not expecting one puppy to discipline the other-my understanding was she wanted to set her puppy up and was going to discipline her-how I do not know. 
I agree with Terrasita. I did not want to have my puppy involved in this "training" session in any way. I am over protective of my dogs and often take the kidding that comes with it. I wanted to have informed back-up of my refusal and maybe some helpful suggestions as well. Thank you all.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

some puppies just do not play well with others...end of story...

most of the litters I have bred, certain pups were fighting pretty seriously by 6-7 weeks.

you dont fix that, you teach the puppy to control himself, just dont expect him to play with another pup/dog, especially not with toys invovled.


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Joby has hit that on the head i also have seen and had litters like he mentioned and they never grew to be dogs u would trust with others.
I would go with what Larry has said if you watch his vids he knows what he is doing.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

brad robert said:


> Joby has hit that on the head i also have seen and had litters like he mentioned and they never grew to be dogs u would trust with others.
> I would go with what Larry has said if you watch his vids he knows what he is doing.


yeah I missed the part where the dog was playing with the Rottie, wresting around with him, and sharing toys with him, and a nice game of tug of war.....


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

I think i get ya but maybe your sarcasm is lost on me :?

If you mean Larrys rottie i think he has said before that it was a super stable dog and helps with rehabing dogs and from the vid with the pit who could argue???


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

brad robert said:


> I think i get ya but maybe your sarcasm is lost on me :?
> 
> If you mean Larrys rottie i think he has said before that it was a super stable dog and helps with rehabing dogs and from the vid with the pit who could argue???


it was a joke Brad.


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> it was a joke Brad.


LOL straight over my head :-D


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## julie allen (Dec 24, 2010)

I currently have a five month old that is a tough little thing. A correction from an adult is a full blown fight, she doesn't back down.

Another pup from that litter had her face torn half off by bitch who had enough. Now she is afraid of dogs. 

So don't expect them to always work it out.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

julie allen said:


> I currently have a five month old that is a tough little thing. A correction from an adult is a full blown fight, she doesn't back down.
> 
> Another pup from that litter had her face torn half off by bitch who had enough. Now she is afraid of dogs.
> 
> So don't expect them to always work it out.



Julie,

They may not always work out pack order on their own but human intervention should be a last resort not a jump in at the first sign of "aggression"
There is also a BIG difference between adult dog aggression and a 4 month old brat puppy. There is even a bigger difference between a brat puppy and the human fear aggressive pit bull that Larry posted the video. Anytime Larry or Caesar Milan or any other trainer "fixes" a problem dog like that in 5 minutes or 3 lessons or ? The problem wasn't the dog the problem was the owner. The poor dog just needed an owner with a little back bone that was willing to take the time and effort to establish some rules and order.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Julie,
> 
> They may not always work out pack order on their own but human intervention should be a last resort not a jump in at the first sign of "aggression"
> There is also a BIG difference between adult dog aggression and a 4 month old brat puppy. There is even a bigger difference between a brat puppy and the human fear aggressive pit bull that Larry posted the video. Anytime Larry or Caesar Milan or any other trainer "fixes" a problem dog like that in 5 minutes or 3 lessons or ? The problem wasn't the dog the problem was the owner. The poor dog just needed an owner with a little back bone that was willing to take the time and effort to establish some rules and order.


Thomas, I agree. But know this, there are 4 month old puppies that show serious aggression as well, not only bratty ones...I am pretty sure that is not what you were saying though, that just because the puppy is 4 months, he is just a bratty pup...

when I picked up Luna as a pup, another puppy and her were playing tug with a small rag, and she let go and latched on to the other pups head, and had to be pried off, and that was under 3 months of age.

I think stronger working type animals or dogs bred for lots of aggression are a slightly different thing than bratty pups, or an average possessive type example of other dogs..

you are right, more control and boundaries, and NOT being expected to play with other dogs, unless they are ones they get along with...


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

for owners who have a single pup and don't have to manage a litter full, i'm a big fan of keeping a harness and a lightweight fairly long drag line on it for safety purposes
*not* for training OB with it btw ...

pups have short attention spans and do unpredictable stuff in a microsecond all the time. i'm all for freedom of movement to let em check out the world, but i also want an "instant recall", especially when in public, or new places, or around other dogs/kids, etc 
.... almost every pup will get used to it quickly and only be squirrelly for a short time unless the owner is constantly yanking on em

.... that's what "I" would consider being overprotective 

had the poster and other person had control of their pups, the accident would have been reduced 90% or even prevented from happening in the first place
...don't know what she meant by being overprotective, but doesn't look like she was in that particular situation

apparently she doesn't feel like she had any fault, but i posted this anyway for others to consider as a positive/secure way to manage a pup


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

rick smith said:


> for owners who have a single pup and don't have to manage a litter full, i'm a big fan of keeping a harness and a lightweight fairly long drag line on it for safety purposes
> *not* for training OB with it btw ...
> 
> pups have short attention spans and do unpredictable stuff in a microsecond all the time. i'm all for freedom of movement to let em check out the world, but i also want an "instant recall", especially when in public, or new places, or around other dogs/kids, etc
> ...


yeah Rick...agree too..

I never bring a pup over to just play with another dog or pup, I let them interact to assess the traits of the dog, I am pretty much expecting most of my pups to be aggressive, as that is usually the case, due to the type of dogs I usually end up getting, although it is also very pleasant when they are not assholes as well...point is, I never select a dog based on its ability to freely "play" with other dogs respectfully, that is secondary and a bonus if it happens to work out that way.


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## jim stevens (Jan 30, 2012)

Joby Becker said:


> some puppies just do not play well with others...end of story...
> 
> most of the litters I have bred, certain pups were fighting pretty seriously by 6-7 weeks.
> 
> you dont fix that, you teach the puppy to control himself, just dont expect him to play with another pup/dog, especially not with toys invovled.


I would agree with this. If there is a way to train a dog-aggressive one to not be, I sure don't know how to do it.


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## Marta Wajngarten (Jul 30, 2006)

Big ditto to what Joby and Larry said. Your friend needs to accept that this could likely be a dog that will never socialize well with others so take appropriate steps starting now. Obviously resource guarding with other dogs is a potential issue so work on that for starters. Work with a trainer if she's not experienced enough, but bottom line: NILF, this pup's world revolves around her, and work on reliable obedience under distractions. 

She shouldn't keep this dog away from other dogs, by all means work around other dogs while on a line, especially now while the pup is still small and easy to control and doesn't have the bonus confidence of an adult, practicing recalls and focus, but I wouldn't let this dog have free play. There is no need for it and especially with a dog that has dog issues, it's sticking your head in the sand and asking for trouble. 

I'm also not a fan of letting the dogs work it out if it's any thing more serious then a harmless shouting match. You're only giving the dog an opportunity to rehearse and learn fighting, possibly kick ass and feel better about the next fight or have their ass kicked (and if its the type of dog that wants to stir stuff up since they were a pup, there will be a next time) have one more reason to get them before they get him and raise his threshhold to action. This type of dogs need to learn obedience and self control around other dogs, not playing nice.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

This topic is getting more and more ridiculous. Pack behavior is a lot more reliable and predictable then the latest behaviorist trainer theory du jour. Packs of Wolves, Wild Dogs and other canines have been managing to discipline unruly puppies for thousands of years and the incidents of serious injury much less
death are extremely rare. But you all keep telling yourselves what a bad ass your puppy is or how only your intervention can keep him from getting his face ripped off. LMAO


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## julie allen (Dec 24, 2010)

Thomas Barriano said:


> This topic is getting more and more ridiculous. Pack behavior is a lot more reliable and predictable then the latest behaviorist trainer theory du jour. Packs of Wolves, Wild Dogs and other canines have been managing to discipline unruly puppies for thousands of years and the incidents of serious injury much less
> death are extremely rare. But you all keep telling yourselves what a bad ass your puppy is or how only your intervention can keep him from getting his face ripped off. LMAO


Thomas, 
While I didn't watch the video, so I can't comment there, I partly agree letting dogs work out issues within their own "pack", as being the best solution without human intervention. 
However, the pack situation you mention doesn't apply fully to dogs raised as we raise them. 
In a wild pack for instance, there is already a structure. Pups are raised from birth within that structure. Unstable wolves do not remain in that pack, so an adult that has aggression issues is booted out. They don't reproduce and pass that on, they usually starve and die.

Dogs that we breed with dog aggression issues, are often bred when adults, and just kept away from others while working. Dogs and wolves are not the same.

Socializing pups with stable dogs who correct them for being brats is the best way. Having a pups face ripped off is not. So sometimes people intervening is best. Since we intervene with breeding the dogs in the first place and select which traits we strive for, and which we let pass. 

It's not about having a bad ass pup. The one I have now gets her ass kicked daily by the adults here. Except the bitch that goes overboard. She has to be monitored when with some of the others. The pup doesn't have manners around them, and obviously she isn't learning from the pack structure. So she isn't bad ass, just a pain in the ass


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Thomas Barriano said:


> This topic is getting more and more ridiculous. Pack behavior is a lot more reliable and predictable then the latest behaviorist trainer theory du jour. Packs of Wolves, Wild Dogs and other canines have been managing to discipline unruly puppies for thousands of years and the incidents of serious injury much less
> death are extremely rare. But you all keep telling yourselves what a bad ass your puppy is or how only your intervention can keep him from getting his face ripped off. LMAO


Huh?

I fully support letting certain older dogs school certain puppies, if I have both on hand.. but I have also owned adults that have killed puppies, and puppies that will seriously fight puppies and adult dogs. If a puppy is going to seriously attack an older dog and get into a full blown fight, what good would it do to let the older dog "school" him? besides getting the pup killed or messed up?

I also will allow more normal type dogs to try to work things out, on neutral ground if they are just squabbling some, and one clearly submits, without a real fight..

I think trying to compare dogs that have been selectively bred for aggressive traits, and dominance, to wild packs of dogs is an apples and oranges thing...there are plenty of dogs that are not bred to be, or are not suitable to be a dog that is a member of a pack of dogs...unless they are the top dog...put a couple/few of those together..or even let them grow up together, and you will see something that is nothing like a wild pack of wild dogs or wolves..

also...a "pack" structure exists in a "pack", not amongst animals from different "packs". 

Dogs are not wild dogs or wolves, many are bred to have traits that would not make sense if they were required to live as a pack, among other traits.. how many wild dogs or wolves do you know of that will run headlong into battle with a person, and forgoe self-preservation?

By your logic..all dogs schooled by the adults will be good with other dogs..

maybe this guy should have just opened up the kennel and let the older dog teach the pup some manners then, I am sure it would work out just fine...the 9 week old pup is just a brat, and there is no possbility he could get injured or killed. would be just fine..right?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iNycCiNm8JU&feature=youtu.be

Thomas have you ever owned a puppy that will fight an adult dog? Or puppies that will fight eachother, causing serious damage? like ripping ears off, chunks of tongues off? flaying eachother open?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

julie allen said:


> Thomas,
> While I didn't watch the video, so I can't comment there, I partly agree letting dogs work out issues within their own "pack", as being the best solution without human intervention.
> However, the pack situation you mention doesn't apply fully to dogs raised as we raise them.
> In a wild pack for instance, there is already a structure. Pups are raised from birth within that structure. Unstable wolves do not remain in that pack, so an adult that has aggression issues is booted out. They don't reproduce and pass that on, they usually starve and die.
> ...


I agree. even goes with breeding...last time I did an AI. the vet said he wasnt even sure if we should be trying to do the breeding, the people in the waiting room probably thought it was a bloodbath in the room...

without muzzles and human intervention, the last 5-6 bitches I bred, would end up not being bred..they would however have gotten into some really serious fights with the males. 

its not about me thinking I have badass dogs, it is about asshole dogs that think they are badasses..


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iNycCiNm8JU&feature=youtu.be

This video shows nothing, more than the average pup will do that with ANY dog or pup through a fence, really is immaterial...


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

_"I'm also not a fan of letting the dogs work it out "_


Neither am I ..... ever mind inviting in a dog or pup from outside for this: _"Now my friend wants to bring this pup back to my home to see if she picks a fight with Dani so she can discipline her"_ ..... to me, this isn't even worthy of discussion with the friend.

JMO!


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

How are these "killer" pups handled by their moms when in the litter? :-k
I've always felt the best method with a pia pup is a good bitch that has had a few litters. 
That said, what the op said about a "friend" bringing a pup over to correct it when it goes after her own dog.....not in a million years!!!
At my house the older dogs have always gotten a new pup off on the right foot but that's understanding my own dogs and knowing a bunch about the new pup's back ground and breeding. I also did this with the terriers I've owned. NOT coming from dog aggressive lines is important to me.....BUT 
ONE JRT I had was a crazy mofo. I hunted with both parents siblings from earlier litters (same breeding) all four grandparents. All super working terriers but mom was nucking futs with people AND dogs. I "wanted" those hunting lines. What would be the odds? :roll: ](*,) but he was a great little earth dog! :lol:


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

don't want to get to far off the track here, but 
... maybe one of the "cons" of selling off pups at an early age; before momma and other litter mates have taught each other basic dog/dog manners ??

i've always assumed litters were broken up early to make it easier to bond with the human and prevent them from getting too "doggy"

regardless, i would sure like to see a study of litters kept intact and fully weaned vice what happens a lot, but this data is probably impossible to collect accurately

i say this because the only times i have had successes curbing dog aggression is by using another dog(s) in the process ... i've never done it completely with only human intervention 

i think aggressive litters may be a result of breeding/selecting for aggression, but that would be getting WAY off track 
... and prob no way to prove that either //lol//


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## Dana Miller (Nov 23, 2010)

I think I read a book about guide dog training


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## Dana Miller (Nov 23, 2010)

That talked about litters kept longer with the mother versus separated earlier. I believe it said puppies taken from the mother and litter prior to 7 or 8 weeks had problems with dog aggression. It was an old book from the 50s or 60s I think, trying to remember the authors name...


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## Dana Miller (Nov 23, 2010)

After a struggle I found the title: Guide dogs for the blind, their selection, development, and training by Clarence J. Pfaffenberger. I think this is a pretty neat book in terms of keeping records and data on variables that affected guide dog suitability. Probably interesting for more than just figuring out how long to keep puppies together to prevent nasty dog aggression issues.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I got both my GSDs when they were 6 wk old, three yrs apart. Neither is dog aggressive. Both are intact males and they are together 24/7. 
IMHO, dog aggression can be genetic or created. 
I do like Pfaffenberger's book, "The New Knowledge of Dog Behavior". One of my first behavioral books.


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## julie allen (Dec 24, 2010)

Out of this current bitch (not dog aggressive) her first litter really didn't show any DA. Some left at 8 weeks, some much later. Stud showed no DA.

Second litter, all have shown some DA. Again some left early, some late. Different stud, no DA.

This bitch doesn't really correct the pups much. They do more than most pups are allowed. However, they are with between three to seven other adults, with varying degrees of patience.

The pup I currently have from second litter just kicked one of the older males butt. None of the other dogs even challenge him. She rarely even postures, she just starts snapping and jumps in full fledged.


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