# Ideal PPD breeds for the city



## Robert Qi

Looking to purchase a new working dog. Will be looking for a female. Some background info: Live in downtown Chicago, have a male GSD(3 yr) (good watchdog, crap nerves, not dominant at all) and an older (7+yr) female beagle( GF's dog, not dominant). Both me and my girlfriend are very active (frequent 3-4x weekly long runs, plus weekly training obedience sessions with our GSD). Will be working closely with an experience PPD trainer when we get the new pup. Have several candidate breeds in mind and looking for suggestions:
1. Dutch Shepherd 
2. Cane Corso (or general mastiff type)
3. Beauceron

Did not include the belgians since I saw quite a few being worked and they are way too wired for city living. Any suggestions/comments would be greatly appreciated.


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## Gerry Grimwood

Is there a full moon this week ??


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## Carol Boche

If you are looking at Beaucerons, look up Debbie Skinner on this board. I don't think she has any available right now (could be wrong though) but she is the best one to go to for this breed.


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## Guest

Robert Qi said:


> Looking to purchase a new working dog. Will be looking for a female. Some background info: Live in downtown Chicago, have a male GSD(3 yr) (good watchdog, crap nerves, not dominant at all) and an older (7+yr) female beagle( GF's dog, not dominant). Both me and my girlfriend are very active (frequent 3-4x weekly long runs, plus weekly training obedience sessions with our GSD). Will be working closely with an experience PPD trainer when we get the new pup. Have several candidate breeds in mind and looking for suggestions:
> 1. Dutch Shepherd
> 2. Cane Corso (or general mastiff type)
> 3. Beauceron
> 
> Did not include the belgians since I saw quite a few being worked and they are way too wired for city living. Any suggestions/comments would be greatly appreciated.


A belgain is too wired for city life, but a DS is ok? You really should study the breed/bloodlines of such breeds before you take your next step.......](*,)


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## Guest

Gerry Grimwood said:


> Is there a full moon this week ??


 
WTF??? What are these people drinking.....


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## Robert Qi

Jody, I will be the first to admit I am by no means well versed enough to take the next steps. My limited experience with PPD is limited to seeing a couple dutchies, a handful belgians, a few GSDs and a pit being worked at a local facility. From what I saw and the feedbacks from the owners and trainers, they recommended these breeds and not the belgians. Thats why I posted on here to sought more information. Telling me I don't konw anything doesn't help me; but perhaps you can point me in the right direction on how to get better educated?


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## Shane Woodlief

Gerry Grimwood said:


> Is there a full moon this week ??


Oh man that is funny as heck! Dude I was sipping on a hot cup of coffee while reading that - not good!


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## Shane Woodlief

Robert Qi said:


> Looking to purchase a new working dog. Will be looking for a female. Some background info: Live in downtown Chicago, have a male GSD(3 yr) (good watchdog, crap nerves, not dominant at all) and an older (7+yr) female beagle( GF's dog, not dominant). Both me and my girlfriend are very active (frequent 3-4x weekly long runs, plus weekly training obedience sessions with our GSD). Will be working closely with an experience PPD trainer when we get the new pup. Have several candidate breeds in mind and looking for suggestions:
> 1. Dutch Shepherd
> 2. Cane Corso (or general mastiff type)
> 3. Beauceron
> 
> Did not include the belgians since I saw quite a few being worked and they are way too wired for city living. Any suggestions/comments would be greatly appreciated.


Are you being serious - is this serious!


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## Robert Qi

Hey, before you guys get all bent out of shape with your working dog snobbery, I am just posing the question from my limited exposure to PPDs. Thats why I didn't just go out and bought a 15k PPD without understanding more about what I am getting. I mean sorry folks, I don't live in the burbs/country where there is a lot of training clubs. So from the taunts, I am going to assume what I understand about the dutch is false, they are not less drivey than belgians? Again guys, just trying to broaden my mind if you will.


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## Carol Boche

In my opinion (and having both breeds), the drives are not more or less in one or the other.....they are all really drivey. 

However, the Dutch can come in and lay down and relax for a long time, the mals just have to be BUSY....

I don't know how to explain it really, there are differences, but I don't think it has anything to do with the working part of it.

I have asked this in other posts too, but, does it have to be PPD? Can it just be a good, alerting dog with a big bark? Not too familiar with the area you live in.


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## Harry Keely

Jody Butler said:


> WTF??? What are these people drinking.....


I think there doing more than drinking :-o


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## Thomas Barriano

Robert,

If you're serious and live in Chicago. Then you might post your question here
http://www.boards2go.com/boards/board.cgi?&user=patwindsor


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## Harry Keely

Alrighty first a DS is no more than a pretty striped Mali at least in the dutch lines, do research on genetics. Second of all a mali or DS or any other breed will do just fine in a city enviroment I think I have stated this now to people on several different threads in the last couple of weeks or so. Third of all do alot more homework on what you want and don't want in a dog. Good luck to ya.


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## Robert Qi

Carol Boche said:


> In my opinion (and having both breeds), the drives are not more or less in one or the other.....they are all really drivey.
> 
> However, the Dutch can come in and lay down and relax for a long time, the mals just have to be BUSY....
> 
> I don't know how to explain it really, there are differences, but I don't think it has anything to do with the working part of it.
> 
> I have asked this in other posts too, but, does it have to be PPD? Can it just be a good, alerting dog with a big bark? Not too familiar with the area you live in.



Our GSD does a good job with the barking which does the trick for basic watch dog duties. We live in a decent area, but we are fairly active and do alot of (8-15k)runs at dawn or early evening and would like to have the "stick" to back up the bark if push come to shove. Being a big city, there are literally nutcases all over the place...Thanks for the useful advice though on the dutch.


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## Robert Qi

Thomas, thanks for the post, good source for add info.


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## Guest

Robert Qi said:


> Jody, I will be the first to admit I am by no means well versed enough to take the next steps. My limited experience with PPD is limited to seeing a couple dutchies, a handful belgians, a few GSDs and a pit being worked at a local facility. From what I saw and the feedbacks from the owners and trainers, they recommended these breeds and not the belgians. Thats why I posted on here to sought more information. Telling me I don't konw anything doesn't help me; but perhaps you can point me in the right direction on how to get better educated?


 
1.) Use the search button upper right hand corner.....

2.) Research DS/Malinois (drives, temperment, character and bloodline) You will fine not much differnt in the two 

3.) Research PPD (Then ask yourself, what do I WANT my dog to do???)

4.) Activity level? Lifestyle? Crate? Loose in house/yard? Ordinances for certain dogs? 

5.) Clubs in area?

Much Much more but to get better results and help on the subject or even people take you seriously, I would look at # 2 AND #3 in depth!


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## Guest

Robert Qi said:


> Our GSD does a good job with the barking which does the trick for basic watch dog duties. We live in a decent area, but we are fairly active and do alot of (8-15k)runs at dawn or early evening and would like to have the "stick" to back up the bark if push come to shove. Being a big city, there are literally nutcases all over the place...Thanks for the useful advice though on the dutch.


 
I have had numerous DS and Mals and currently do. I find absolutely no difference in the dogs as far as drive or activity level...NOTHING! 

Certain bloodline dogs have certain traits and to understand that and how to tap into it for your advantage is key to success. The animal itself is a different color in my eyes, thats it!


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## Robert Qi

Good point, it seems from what I have researched and from the responses here the Dutch and belgian are not different. Do anyone have any experiences with beaucerons or Cane Corso?


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## jack van strien

Robert,
Do you know what it means to be running with a dog that will bite attackers?How will he react to someone running up to you carrying a folded umbrella?What if you are running with other people?I assume the dog will be on a leash,some dogs will naturally protect you , others may need some training.What will happen legally if your dog bites someone by accident?I know it probably looks nice to see ppd dogs work and maybe you think you want one,do you really need one?


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## Bob Scott

There are always exceptions but the majority of the mastiff breeds I've seen are either nerve bags or couch potato lovers.
The Cane Corso would be at the top of my nerve bag list in the group. 
Put on a great show (if you don't know what your looking at) but can't/wont back it up. 
ANY breed can have what your looking for in a dog you just need to look around and take your time.


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## Ashley Campbell

Harry Keely said:


> I think there doing more than drinking :-o


They are multiplying.

To answer the OP, why not a working line GSD? You already have some experience with GSD's, and a nervebag at that, you might find them a lot more toned down than a Mal/DS. Just because you have one that sucks for the work now, doesn't mean they all do - just gotta do your shopping.


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## Alex Pitawanakwat

I know a few Corsos and I don't think they'd be able to keep up with the amount of running you're planning on. My experience if limited, I could be wrong. I've met half a dozen (pets, not working dogs) and there's not a chance they could go for a long run.


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## Shane Woodlief

Seriously get a freaking huge pit bull (or for Maureen a Dogo) crop the ears put a big spike collar on it, teach it to bark at anyone or anything and that will be enough to keep 99% of the people away. The other 1% is going to shoot your dog and do what they want too no matter what kind of dog it is.


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## Bart Karmich

Will you be getting a puppy or a grown dog? Because raising a puppy is a full year or two of very different experience than what you're talking about. No 15k runs, no "protection" training in defense (just prey games basically), certainly no expectation that the puppy is going to do real world work, and a whole lot of staying home time doing something with the pup besides locking it in the crate. When you want a working dog, but you're thinking about raising a puppy, it's like you need an employee so you go and have a baby. What you get is more like a son or a daughter than an employee and for a long time they're just a puppy and however bad ass you thought they were going to be, well, you get real, unless you're sensless.

You said you want a female, but if you're serious about protection work your odds are better with a male. Females can do very well in the work but look at the sports and you'll see it's mostly males in the competition. Why stack the odds against yourself?

Chances are your experienced PPD trainer has no credentials or accomplishments. PPD is not an illegitimate goal, but there are no legitimate PPD credentials so to speak. The sports, schutzhund, ring, knpv, etc. have standards. Maybe PSA was an attempt to set standards for PPD, I don't know much about it. Generally speaking I'd say if the trainer can't prove himself with schutzhund titles, he's probably a loser. I said probably. If you have any doubt, just vet him out right here by naming him. I'm sure there will be plenty of opinions.

You have to get real about PPD yourself. The Personal Protection Dog section of this forum has a number of good posts examining the PPD myth and the realities.


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## Chris Michalek

just get a pit bull and be done with it.


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## Shane Woodlief

Chris Michalek said:


> just get a pit bull and be done with it.


Dude that is what I said


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## Chris Michalek

Shane Woodlief said:


> Dude that is what I said


sorry bro. I didn't read the whole thread. I just cut to the chase....what we have here in Robert is a pit man. Be sure to hang be chains around the neck


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## Shane Woodlief

Chris Michalek said:


> sorry bro. I didn't read the whole thread. I just cut to the chase....what we have here in Robert is a pit man. Be sure to hang be chains around the neck


Do they still call it bling bling the chains I mean \\/


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## Ashley Campbell

Shane Woodlief said:


> Do they still call it bling bling the chains I mean \\/


Only if you spray paint it gold.


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## Shane Woodlief

Ashley Campbell said:


> Only if you spray paint it gold.


Now that is funny :mrgreen:


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## andreas broqvist

I read on a nother bord that thos breeds DS/Mal seems to be more and more the big thing to get for a PPD.

I must say, CRAPP. When the show peoepl downt ruin a breed the "tuff" guys will.

If this takes of thos breeds will go the same way as the pitbull


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## Maureen A Osborn

Shane Woodlief said:


> Seriously get a freaking huge pit bull (or for Maureen a Dogo) crop the ears put a big spike collar on it, teach it to bark at anyone or anything and that will be enough to keep 99% of the people away. The other 1% is going to shoot your dog and do what they want too no matter what kind of dog it is.


The pit I had was the biggest mush/couch potatoe going, NO drive, LOL. 

As far as dogos, I warn people that they, on the other hand, are VERY drivey dogs, ie HUNTING (prey) drive. So as far as wanting to run,if off leash....BIG MISTAKE, they WILL take off at the smell of another prey animal. Dog parks and dogos dont mix either, a good dogo wont look for a fight, but if challenged, wont turn it down either, and will win the fight most likely.My male dogo is also a big mush,loves people, but not a couch potatoe, he wants to be outside tracking and hunting whatever. My female is aloof to strangers, and is very independent, wants to do her own thing, will spend hours outside also tracking, hunting, digging, chasing. The breed has a tendency to same sex aggression. There's a reason why you dont see dogos out there titling in SCH,FR,MR....they are difficult to train in them. BIggest thing I have heard from other people is getting them to actually engage in the bite on a human, since it is against their natural tendency(like other Molosser breeds). I have spoken to the owner of Inca, the first and only dual certified PSD Dogo Argentino in the US, and even he only recommends a HIGHLY experienced trainer that has trained dogos, and states it is a big liability with training a breed like the dogo in PSD or PPD, because they do look like a pit on steriods and people are just waiting for a mistake to sue.


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## Jeff Batiste

Ever thought of a Giant Schnauzer, Presa Canario or Rottie... Now finding a good one of any of those breeds, will be right next to the needle in the haystack...But if you got a good one it would certainly be what you were looking for... 

Dutchies and Mals in the city, is like carrying a loaded gun with no safety and a hair trigger into a corwded night club.. You can do it but why would you?


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## Chris Michalek

have you thought of getting a trench coat and four or five patterdales? You could keep the patties in your coat and when somebody ****s with you, you could start throwing the patties like ninja stars.


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## Kristen Roberts

I've had Beaucerons, Malinois, GSD and now my first Dutch Shepherd.

Out of my 3 Beauces, 2 were nerve bags. It's hard to find one bred for stability and drive. The ones that are bred for work are no better (or worse, depending how you want to look at it), than a good Malinois or DS (talking about activity level and drive). I wouldn't recommend a Beauceron from working lines to live in the city anymore than a Malinois. With the right amount of exercise and work, they'd probably all do ok, but it would take the right person.

Cane Corsos from what I've read/seen LOOK intimdating, but otherwise wouldn't work. And probably not the best for the running you want to do. If I were you I'd look into another good GSD, Chesapeake Bay Retriever (more protective than you think), or a Pit Bull (the intimdation factor)


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## ISH MOORE

I would go for a Cane Corso or a Dutchie. It all depends on the dog. I have had a Dutchie an a Mal. Both could live in the house with no problem after they had grown up.

Did you think about getting a older dog? A pup will need a 1 or 2 before it could help you. The 4 breeds I would use would be Fila Sao Miguel, Cane Corso, Belgian Malinois, & Dutchie from working lines. All depends on what you are looking for.

www.DreamTeamKennels.com


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## kristin tresidder

please ignore the irritating "pitbull" comments [-o<


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## Anna Kasho

Chris Michalek said:


> have you thought of getting a trench coat and four or five patterdales? You could keep the patties in your coat and when somebody ****s with you, you could start throwing the patties like ninja stars.


Cats are MUCH better for throwing. For one, they have 18 extra grappling hooks in case your aim is not so great.

And two - nobody messes with a crazy cat lady


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## Shane Woodlief

kristin tresidder said:


> please ignore the irritating "pitbull" comments [-o<


I love pits have had three of them.


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## Edward Egan

Robert Qi said:


> Hey, before you guys get all bent out of shape with your working dog snobbery, I am just posing the question from my limited exposure to PPDs. Thats why I didn't just go out and bought a 15k PPD without understanding more about what I am getting. I mean sorry folks, I don't live in the burbs/country where there is a lot of training clubs. So from the taunts, I am going to assume what I understand about the dutch is false, they are not less drivey than belgians? Again guys, just trying to broaden my mind if you will.


It's not just about DS, it's about wanting something that may get you in serious trouble (accidental or unjustified bite) and give whatever breed you select a bad name.

Are you familular with your laws about dog bites? Are you willing to put up everything you own because some drunk you ran across is giving you a hard time? Do you have the time/money to train a PPD continuosly?


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## Adam Rawlings

kristin tresidder said:


> please ignore the irritating "pitbull" comments [-o<


 The comments may be irritating, but you have to admitt that a good number of people that own pits think they're pretty bad ass dogs.


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## Brian McQuain

Get yourself a CCW...oh wait...you live in Chicago.


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## Maureen A Osborn

Adam Rawlings said:


> The comments may be irritating, but you have to admitt that a good number of people that own pits think they're pretty bad ass dogs.


My pit was a dumb a$$LOL. He would eat everything and anything....bars of soap, rocks, sticks, etc....It ended up killing him in the end, FBO. The vet told me the 3 most common breeds to get obstructed are labs, pits, and goldens. The SOB also used to love to dig out from under my fence and take off galavanting tin the neighborhood,thank God he loved everyone and everything, including other dogs and cats, LOL. One of the days he took off I found him like 2 miles away laying on the side of a busy street, busy chewing on a stick....I bout put my boot up his a$$ for that one](*,) PIA or not, miss him though, very sweet (but stubborn) dog.

My favorite picture of him, always happy and silly...


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## ISH MOORE

Maureen A Osborn said:


> My pit was a dumb a$$LOL. He would eat everything and anything....bars of soap, rocks, sticks, etc....It ended up killing him in the end, FBO. The vet told me the 3 most common breeds to get obstructed are labs, pits, and goldens. The SOB also used to love to dig out from under my fence and take off galavanting tin the neighborhood,thank God he loved everyone and everything, including other dogs and cats, LOL. One of the days he took off I found him like 2 miles away laying on the side of a busy street, busy chewing on a stick....I bout put my boot up his a$$ for that one](*,) PIA or not, miss him though, very sweet (but stubborn) dog.
> 
> My favorite picture of him, always happy and silly...


I had pitts for 10 years and that sounds just like them. Very sweet dog with the family and other people. Some not that good with other dogs.:twisted: They will chew any thing any time. Smart but stubborn. I only had two that would protect the rest anybody could walk off with them. In fact some one did. Some one broke in my house and stole my pit and thats when I had to get another breed. My first dog after pits were Cane Corso and I never had that problem again. In fact I use to leave my back door unlock all of the time and never had a worry.

www.DreamTeamKennels.com


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## Ashley Campbell

Brian McQuain said:


> Get yourself a CCW...oh wait...you live in Chicago.












The part in the court room where the guy in the white suit goes "I got a permit for that!"


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## Maureen A Osborn

ISH MOORE;228410anybody could walk off with them.
[/QUOTE said:


> LOL, yep, Bleu would go with anyone, I could turn around and he would go with whoever and not even look back, LOL.


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## kristin tresidder

Adam Rawlings said:


> The comments may be irritating, but you have to admitt that a good number of people that own pits think they're pretty bad ass dogs.


good pitbulls are 'pretty bad ass dogs' - for what they were intended to do/be. just as are good bird dogs, or good earth dogs, or good police dogs. what pitbulls are not intended to be, are 'huge' or idiotic things lunging at the end of a leash at every human passer by, or territorial, or guard dogs. the breed needs another dog like that on the streets of chicago like it needs a 5th leg...


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## Shane Woodlief

You guys are taking comments way to serious. The issue with pits is - this is what the guy wants something that is scary that he can go running with that is scary to people. Now what dog outside of a Rottie brings fear to the general public - it is a freaking pitbull.

I have owned them and they are great nothing wrong with them at all. They are full of personality and border line goof balls. 

The guy asking the question clearly needs to do some home work but in the end what he wants is a scary dog to run with.


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## Robert Qi

Shane Woodlief said:


> You guys are taking comments way to serious. The issue with pits is - this is what the guy wants something that is scary that he can go running with that is scary to people. Now what dog outside of a Rottie brings fear to the general public - it is a freaking pitbull.
> 
> I have owned them and they are great nothing wrong with them at all. They are full of personality and border line goof balls.
> 
> The guy asking the question clearly needs to do some home work but in the end what he wants is a scary dog to run with.


Shane seems like you have me all figured out. But hate to tell you but your conclusions about what I am looking for are wrong. My GSD is big and scary looking (to a layman) and barks on command. So I am not looking for some scary looking dog. I ask for PPD because I am also interested in learning more about protection sports. Can't exactly take a soft grown GSD very far in that now can I? Now let's assume I am willing to dedicate the time (say 2x a week to training+ runs for exercise), and not concerned about the cost of purchase+training costs, what type of breeds are ideal for the city assuming the dog would serve both as a PPD and family pet? Also, what are the disadvantages/advantages of getting a younger dog vs. a puppy vs. adult?


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## Robert Qi

kristin tresidder said:


> good pitbulls are 'pretty bad ass dogs' - for what they were intended to do/be. just as are good bird dogs, or good earth dogs, or good police dogs. what pitbulls are not intended to be, are 'huge' or idiotic things lunging at the end of a leash at every human passer by, or territorial, or guard dogs. the breed needs another dog like that on the streets of chicago like it needs a 5th leg...


Kristin, I agree with you 100%. Can't count the times when I take my GSD out to the park or on runs and some fat idiot with an overweight pit (funny how dogs physically resemble their owners) who lunges at us because his dog is "a protection dog and thats what's he is trained to do"...


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## Chris Michalek

do you seriously want a bite trained dog or one that bluffs? If you're not into dogs sports, I wouldn't waste the time training a dog to be a liability. get a desert eagle and a machete if you're that scared. Maybe learn some Krav Maga too so you can be like Jason Bourne.


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## Thomas Barriano

Chris Michalek said:


> do you seriously want a bite trained dog or one that bluffs? If you're not into dogs sports, I wouldn't waste the time training a dog to be a liability. get a desert eagle and a machete if you're that scared. Maybe learn some Krav Maga too so you be like Jason Bourne.


Chris 

A desert eagle and a machete are a good start. Adding a little Krav Maga is better BUT adding a pit bull that knows doggy kung fu will make you invincible


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## Robert Qi

Chris Michalek said:


> do you seriously want a bite trained dog or one that bluffs? If you're not into dogs sports, I wouldn't waste the time training a dog to be a liability. get a desert eagle and a machete if you're that scared. Maybe learn some Krav Maga too so you can be like Jason Bourne.


I know how to handle myself, but my girlfriend's tae kwon do skills may be rusty! Want the PPD really for 2 purposes: 1. a good "blank template" to get into dog sports 2. protection. Now are you telling me a bite trained dog can't handle the city living stress and would suck in obedience/turn on people?


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## Gerry Grimwood

If you just want more security when out for a run, why not get a big weeping prosthetic coldsore you could stick on your lip and cough alot while running ?

Ya..that's the ticket.


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## Robert Qi

Thomas Barriano said:


> Chris
> 
> A desert eagle and a machete are a good start. Adding a little Krav Maga is better BUT adding a pit bull that knows doggy kung fu will make you invincible


Live in Chicago gents, in case you don't know it has toughest gun laws in the country. Can't have a handgun outside your home (that even means your garage is off limits). Plus a machete would chafe when running


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## Ashley Campbell

Well to quote one of your locals there.

"You can get more with a kind word and a gun than you can with just a kind word."


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## Chris Michalek

Thomas Barriano said:


> Chris
> 
> A desert eagle and a machete are a good start. Adding a little Krav Maga is better BUT adding a pit bull that knows doggy kung fu will make you invincible



He needs a dog like this one

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pXElh_VM0Uc but with a spiked collar.


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## Chris Michalek

Robert Qi said:


> Live in Chicago gents, in case you don't know it has toughest gun laws in the country. Can't have a handgun outside your home (that even means your garage is off limits). Plus a machete would chafe when running



Have you considered running in a pair of these personal protection shoes?


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## Shane Woodlief

Robert Qi said:


> Shane seems like you have me all figured out. But hate to tell you but your conclusions about what I am looking for are wrong. My GSD is big and scary looking (to a layman) and barks on command. So I am not looking for some scary looking dog. I ask for PPD because I am also interested in learning more about protection sports. Can't exactly take a soft grown GSD very far in that now can I? Now let's assume I am willing to dedicate the time (say 2x a week to training+ runs for exercise), and not concerned about the cost of purchase+training costs, what type of breeds are ideal for the city assuming the dog would serve both as a PPD and family pet? Also, what are the disadvantages/advantages of getting a younger dog vs. a puppy vs. adult?


Dude did you not see the smiley face at the end. You are being way too serious.

Honestly a PPD dog and a sport dog are two different types of dogs IMO. A junk yard dog would be great a PP. A dog that will thrive in protection sports is something else altogether.

Honestly you need to ask if the Liability of a PPD is worth it. Your GSD is already doing a great job.

Now if want to get into sport - that is a different conversation all together. If you like the GSD stay with it there are several sports you can do with it. 

Dutchies and Mal same thing different colors.


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## Shane Woodlief

Gerry Grimwood said:


> If you just want more security when out for a run, why not get a big weeping prosthetic coldsore you could stick on your lip and cough alot while running ?
> 
> Ya..that's the ticket.


:-o:smile:


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## Shane Woodlief

Chris Michalek said:


> Have you considered running in a pair of these personal protection shoes?


Due that is FAH :smile:


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## Chris Michalek

I bet if you dressed like this, you wouldn't need a dog at all.


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## ISH MOORE

Shane Woodlief said:


> Dude did you not see the smiley face at the end. You are being way too serious.
> 
> Honestly a PPD dog and a sport dog are two different types of dogs IMO. A junk yard dog would be great a PP. A dog that will thrive in protection sports is something else altogether.
> 
> Honestly you need to ask if the Liability of a PPD is worth it. Your GSD is already doing a great job.
> 
> Now if want to get into sport - that is a different conversation all together. If you like the GSD stay with it there are several sports you can do with it.
> 
> Dutchies and Mal same thing different colors.


Are you guys saying a dog can't be a sport dog an a personal protection dog as well?

www.DreamTeamKennels.com


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## Robert Qi

Shane Woodlief said:


> Dude did you not see the smiley face at the end. You are being way too serious.
> 
> Honestly a PPD dog and a sport dog are two different types of dogs IMO. A junk yard dog would be great a PP. A dog that will thrive in protection sports is something else altogether.
> 
> Honestly you need to ask if the Liability of a PPD is worth it. Your GSD is already doing a great job.
> 
> Now if want to get into sport - that is a different conversation all together. If you like the GSD stay with it there are several sports you can do with it.
> 
> Dutchies and Mal same thing different colors.


Its all in good fun, sorry if I came off pissed, just trying to get better educated. Now, from your experience, how is a PPD a liability? I mean my understanding training a working dog, any dog ,obedience is first and foremost and then bitework etc....I may have been fed a bunch of bs from the trainer I been consulting with but hard to believe a PPD is going to be a lawsuit waiting to happen.


----------



## Ashley Campbell

Again I'm just gonna ask, but why not another GSD? You have experience with them, have an idea of how they act...and I'm pretty sure most will agree they are a bit more toned down than a Mal or DS.


Just because the one you have isn't good for the work, doesn't mean you can't find one that will be.


----------



## Mike Scheiber

Robert Qi said:


> Its all in good fun, sorry if I came off pissed, just trying to get better educated. Now, from your experience, how is a PPD a liability? I mean my understanding training a working dog, any dog ,obedience is first and foremost and then bitework etc....I may have been fed a bunch of bs from the trainer I been consulting with but hard to believe a PPD is going to be a lawsuit waiting to happen.


Ask your self honestly who would have a better odds of getting dog bit in your yard friends or foe


----------



## Robert Qi

Ashley Campbell said:


> Again I'm just gonna ask, but why not another GSD? You have experience with them, have an idea of how they act...and I'm pretty sure most will agree they are a bit more toned down than a Mal or DS.
> 
> 
> Just because the one you have isn't good for the work, doesn't mean you can't find one that will be.


I am not opposed to a working line GSD, do you have any breeder references and recommendations on the bloodlines I should look for?


----------



## Ashley Campbell

I don't, but I'd be willing to bet someone on here would have a good reference.


----------



## Chris Michalek

Mike Scheiber said:


> Ask your self honestly who would have a better odds of getting dog bit in your yard friends or foe



About 12 years ago, when I lived in MN, I had a Rott who had a nasty edge to her. One day, my brother calls me at work because he wanted to borrow a few DVDs, I told him, I don't know how the dog will react to him when I wasn't home. He said he wasn't scared and I didn't really think she would do anything to him because she had been exposed to him many times since puppyhood. 

Well, my brother didn't go to my house, he sent his room mate to my house. As I understand the story, the dog put up a front at the back door but he called her name and she chilled out. He entered the house and took some DVDs but then she wouldn't let him leave and cornered him in the kitchen. He got bit once in the knee and in the hip. For five hours, he stood on my kitchen counter with my dog staring and snarling at him.

Luckily he wasn't hurt too bad and never pressed the issue. 

This was a dog that wasn't trained to bite. Just a well bred Rottweiler. 

Another more recent story. A year ago, my house was broken into while I was home. I have two bite trained dogs - a rott and a mal. They alerted but after it was too late. Now there were circumstances that I believe hindered the response of the dogs but I don't know for sure.


Why exactly do you feel you need a Personal Protection dog? Do people in general think you're a dick and want to kick your ass or something? Or are you in a general a huge pussy that people constantly kick to the curb?


----------



## Meng Xiong

I really like my Rotti for general purpose/sport dog/family dog. He can chill in the house, he seems to be working very well on the field, and hes a good enough visual deterent. I could be completely wrong, but based off of the rotts ive seen I think they make great all-purpose dogs.


----------



## Robert Qi

Chris Michalek said:


> About 12 years ago, when I lived in MN, I had a Rott who had a nasty edge to her. One day, my brother calls me at work because he wanted to borrow a few DVDs, I told him, I don't know how the dog will react to him when I wasn't home. He said he wasn't scared and I didn't really think she would do anything to him because she had been exposed to him many times since puppyhood.
> 
> Well, my brother didn't go to my house, he sent his room mate to my house. As I understand the story, the dog put up a front at the back door but he called her name and she chilled out. He entered the house and took some DVDs but then she wouldn't let him leave and cornered him in the kitchen. He got bit once in the knee and in the hip. For five hours, he stood on my kitchen counter with my dog staring and snarling at him.
> 
> Luckily he wasn't hurt too bad and never pressed the issue.
> 
> This was a dog that wasn't trained to bite. Just a well bred Rottweiler.
> 
> Another more recent story. A year ago, my house was broken into while I was home. I have two bite trained dogs - a rott and a mal. They alerted but after it was too late. Now there were circumstances that I believe hindered the response of the dogs but I don't know for sure.
> 
> 
> Why exactly do you feel you need a Personal Protection dog? Do people in general think you're a dick and want to kick your ass or something? Or are you in a general a huge pussy that people constantly kick to the curb?



Chris, maybe you didn't see the previous posts or you are just dense or maybe you just enjoy being an a$$hole to people who ask a simple question about dogs or is it all 3?? But I don't just want to go and buy a PPD. I want to put the time in to get a pup, work to train it in protection. Plus the original post was what type of dog would work well in the city as a PPD? Same question you asked me, I pose to you. Why do you have a belgian and rott? Are people in the burbs/country only people who should have a bite trained dog? If bite trained dogs are such a liability why didn't you get a irish setter instead and get into confirmation? Sounds like a lot of people on here are a bit biased against city folks who want to own a working dog. Not all of us in the city want to have a poodle or yorkie.


----------



## Robert Qi

Meng Xiong said:


> I really like my Rotti for general purpose/sport dog/family dog. He can chill in the house, he seems to be working very well on the field, and hes a good enough visual deterent. I could be completely wrong, but based off of the rotts ive seen I think they make great all-purpose dogs.


Meng, how is the endurance of the rottie? Can it handle long runs after it matures (>2-3 yrs old)?


----------



## Chris Michalek

Robert Qi said:


> Meng, how is the endurance of the rottie? Can it handle long runs after it matures (>2-3 yrs old)?


my wife runs 5-7mi most days per week and she takes the rottie with her.


----------



## Ashley Campbell

Robert Qi said:


> Chris, maybe you didn't see the previous posts or you are just dense or maybe you just enjoy being an a$$hole to people who ask a simple question about dogs or is it all 3?? But I don't just want to go and buy a PPD. I want to put the time in to get a pup, work to train it in protection. Plus the original post was what type of dog would work well in the city as a PPD? Same question you asked me, I pose to you. Why do you have a belgian and rott? Are people in the burbs/country only people who should have a bite trained dog? If bite trained dogs are such a liability why didn't you get a irish setter instead and get into confirmation? Sounds like a lot of people on here are a bit biased against city folks who want to own a working dog. Not all of us in the city want to have a poodle or yorkie.


The reason Mal/DS aren't suggested is because of the exercise requirements, but hey, if you don't love your furniture, go ahead and get one. Then when it gets bored and shreds the world or develops bad habits because it's bored, you can come back and ask how to "fix" this.

It's not a bias on where you live, it's a bias that you're inexperienced and *think* you need a dog to protect you. There is also a difference between a dog that does bitework like Schutzhund vs a PPD. The only reason you're seeing a bias because you live in a city is...there are more people in a city, and more liability involved than if you lived on 20 acres in the middle of Bum ****ed Egypt. 
I live in a decent sized city, and people are idiots. 

Do you even realize that an inexperienced owner would be so much better off getting a dog that is already trained, or at least a green dog? What happens when you ruin this working pup and it doesn't end up being the bad ass PPD that you thought you bought?


----------



## Keith McCabe

Robert, i have a Mali and a Herder both are full on when working or indeed training but are quite calm when not in that situation. Neither have given me any issues when inside the house, but i have to say thet are not inside on their own. They bond really well and do need plenty of contact with the owner/handler, and both breeds would work with your training requirements. I regularly run with the Mali as the herder is still too young and get on fine. Dont discount either, find the right breeder and take it from there. I have always had better results getting pups rather than older dogs.


----------



## Shane Woodlief

Robert Qi said:


> Its all in good fun, sorry if I came off pissed, just trying to get better educated. Now, from your experience, how is a PPD a liability? I mean my understanding training a working dog, any dog ,obedience is first and foremost and then bitework etc....I may have been fed a bunch of bs from the trainer I been consulting with but hard to believe a PPD is going to be a lawsuit waiting to happen.


So you don't think that a dog that is trained to act a certain way to a "perceived" threat is a liability? You heard Chris's story about the Rottie. Those stories are real man. Honestly, all goofing off aside if you get a dog that looks tough Like a GSD, Rottie, or a big dog and it barks at people that is going to deter most 99% of all people. The other 1% is just going to shoot your dog because they are that determined. 

I don't know where you live but I would get a good sport dog like a good GSD or a good dutchie/mali. I would then find a really good club. Sounds Like PSA might be a good place to start, one of the ring sports or schutzhund. Do the training. Most PPD stuff honestly is load of BS like an earlier poster stated.

Also if you get a pup (which is my preference) it is going to take a while for it to mature. Honestly your current GSD is already doing the job so I would go the route I suggested.


----------



## Meng Xiong

Robert Qi said:


> Meng, how is the endurance of the rottie? Can it handle long runs after it matures (>2-3 yrs old)?


 
Robert,
A Rott who is in shape should have no problems keeping up with its owner. Like Chris said, 5-7miles a day shouldn't be an issue.

If you are interested in working dogs, i'd recommend checking out a local club and talking to lots of people, and from there you can decide on what type of dog is best for you. Any sort of good training is going to focus on control because "protection" is just a very small portion of owning a working dog.


----------



## Shane Woodlief

Ashley Campbell said:


> The reason Mal/DS aren't suggested is because of the exercise requirements, but hey, if you don't love your furniture, go ahead and get one. Then when it gets bored and shreds the world or develops bad habits because it's bored, you can come back and ask how to "fix" this.
> 
> It's not a bias on where you live, it's a bias that you're inexperienced and *think* you need a dog to protect you. There is also a difference between a dog that does bitework like Schutzhund vs a PPD. The only reason you're seeing a bias because you live in a city is...there are more people in a city, and more liability involved than if you lived on 20 acres in the middle of Bum ****ed Egypt.
> I live in a decent sized city, and people are idiots.
> 
> Do you even realize that an inexperienced owner would be so much better off getting a dog that is already trained, or at least a green dog? What happens when you ruin this working pup and it doesn't end up being the bad ass PPD that you thought you bought?


Ashley your Bias is showing


----------



## Robert Qi

Alright gents and ladies, I got to say it was good to post on here since you guys don't shy away from being blunt and pointing out the fallacies of owning a protection dog. I just contacted a local club in Chicago and will be attending one of their meets this weekend and go from there.


----------



## Shane Woodlief

Robert Qi said:


> Alright gents and ladies, I got to say it was good to post on here since you guys don't shy away from being blunt and pointing out the fallacies of owning a protection dog. I just contacted a local club in Chicago and will be attending one of their meets this weekend and go from there.


Good for you man what kind of club is it?


----------



## Ashley Campbell

Shane Woodlief said:


> Ashley your Bias is showing


I know right...


----------



## Robert Qi

Shane Woodlief said:


> Good for you man what kind of club is it?


Its a local PSA oriented club. What really interested me was they offer classes on novice handlers of working dogs. Figured thats my next natural progression to learn more about PPD in general and the training involved.


----------



## Shane Woodlief

good job man


----------



## ISH MOORE

Hey

Email me private I have a few people in Chi-Town that maybe can help you.

[email protected]


----------



## Edward Egan

Robert Qi said:


> Alright gents and ladies, I got to say it was good to post on here since you guys don't shy away from being blunt and pointing out the fallacies of owning a protection dog. I just contacted a local club in Chicago and will be attending one of their meets this weekend and go from there.


Hi Robert, you see about once a month, usually during a full moon, we get people on here with the same old question "What kind of PPD should I get?" So most everyone on here has gone through these's questions multiable times. Patients with NOOB's asking the same old PPD question is limited.

I must say you seem to have endured these's posts quite well. You may have even seen the light! I'm glad you contacted a club and hope you follow along that path. They most likely can even help in your selection of a good dog. Bravo!

This outcome is rare, it usually results in someone that just can't seem to realize what they are getting into.


----------



## Ashley Campbell

Edward, not like we have any examples of that exactly on another thread right now 

Time to hide out, full moon is tonight!

As for the OP, I think that's a much better start than trying to find a dog then joining. Good luck, I'm sure someone can help you pick out what you actually "need" in a dog.


----------



## Tiffany Damm

I have a corso. We train PSA but are doing alot of OB right now and are diversifying.
Couple pros:
LOVERS they adore their family and are affectionate to those in it.
scary on sight
very territorial and i dont doubt they would do what needed on their own property or vehicle. If you doubt this, come over for a visit. 
If trained wrong (this is with any dog) can be a MESS and very hard to place with other familes. 
There are some working but not many. 

CONS:
to get a good one $$$$$$$$$$$$ and you want a health garuntee on that size dog
tons of socializing they need to see everything
easy to train and very willing to learn
good with little dogs
loving to kids, my child can take a raw bone from our dogs mouth. 
Good house dogs. Very aware of their size
They have off switch. 
Pretty Versatile
THey can be slow to mature

Research the breed and make a list of aspects you want for your life, like we did. And we got a corso and we dont regret it for a second.


----------



## Tiffany Damm

This is my 14 mos "Nerve Bag". Hes traveled everywhere and has been known to come to work with me where we see 100+ people a day. I should also mention my son has a form of autism and this dog has been a HUGE help in public situations








12 mos here... 









in focus








on vacation


----------



## Lloyd Kasakoff

Boy, oh, boy. Sometimes this board is a little embarrassing  

Seriously.

We have someone who's admittedly a new, looking for advice on a working dog forum. 

What do we do? Ridicule his knowledge, lack of choices, put smileys at the end of our posts, and think it's okay. 

And then we wonder why the sports we're in don't grow, we complain about cliquish behavior in our boards and management, we bitch about politics, and act like a bunch of Junior High kids. 

Robert: We moved from downtown Chicago. We had a former employee who was a stalker. We lived at State and Division. We had a large GSD that would bark on command. The softest nerves you've seen on a light sable GSD. The former employee was a 7 time felon, once 4 years at Attica Prison for attempted murder on a cop. 

We got a GSD that was already trained - SchH III, former Czech national champion. Not cheap, but already trained. 

For us to train on puppies would have been...bad. 

We eventually had puppies, and even after a trained GSD, we continued making mistakes. It's all a learning process. 

*On "Opinions"...

*Anyone on this board that drips of arrogance from having titled "multiple dogs" and having been on "multiple podiums" wasn't born with full knowledge of dog sport. At some point in time, they were like you, or like we were once...curious, and didn't know their arse from a hole in the ground. 

*On "Trained Grown Dog versus Puppy"*

If you can, get a trained dog as your first working dog. Unless you have someone who works with dogs all the time with you who can coach you through some or most of it, you'll just screw it up or pay a lot of money for your learning and end up with less than you want from your dog. Don't get a puppy - my opinion. 

*On "Breeds"*

Some will disagree, but I think the consensus you're getting is that Belgians / Malis and Dutchies are an advanced user dog, and again...unless trained, probably not what you're looking for now. 

Beaucerons? You were given Debbie Skinner's name. She's a fine and conscientious breeder. She mostly breeds Mali's but also partners with Tim Welch on Beaucerons. Frankly, Tim is probably trialing the only Beauceron in the States that I have seen in Dogsport, and he trains his in ringsport. At the same time, you have hundreds of people trialing with Malis, Dutchies and GSD's in Schutzhund, French Ring, Mondio, PSA and the like. What do you think that says about GSD's, Dutchies and Malis as compared to other breeds? Since you mentioned working dogs, how many people do you see with American Pitbull Terriers and other bully breeds, or Beaucerons for that matter? Again, short of Leri Hansen, I can't think of anyone else doing Ringsport and Schutzhund with a bully. Many an experienced trainer have tried..and you're a newbie, so go with what's safe. 

So in my opinion, Beaucies are out. So are Bully's. That leaves Dutchies, GSD's and Mali's. 

Dutchies and Mali's are very similar in drives. People have shared their opinion on you getting one already, so I'll skip that. 

We train and breed GSD's, and we're new at it. 

A working line GSD is smaller, drivier, and more stable in many ways. Sometime we may end up with a mali, for now we have GSD's. Feel free to PM and we can point you in the right direction if you want to go there. Personally I think this would be a better choice for you.

At all costs avoid getting anything from "My Bodyguard" in Illinois. They specialize in showlines, and really generally are out to make the most money they can from you while providing inferior results. 

*On "Clubs" in Chicago.

*I think I've already addressed the business or club known as "My Bodyguard". 

There are a good number of clubs in Chicago. You'll find that like in anything else, cliques abound. You have to have thick skin to prevail in this sport. 

"Bur Oak" was probably by far the most successful Schutzhund club in my opinion. Very social, tons of members which speak to its success, genuinely nice people. A little north of Chicago but worth the time. This is probably my ideal picture of a "club" where not everyone wants to compete, while some do, and there are different levels of people there. 

I can't say enough good things on our brief experience with Bernard Clay and his Chi-town Schutzhund club. We consider ourselves friends with some of its members, and they *work*, not stand around and BS. Really, really nice people. Consider yourself lucky if they let you train with them or become a member - just nice people overall. 

Ray Silvertrust also has a Schutzhund club. They specialize in Showlines. He commented to us when we went there as newbies that our (working line) Shepherds would never make it in Schutzhund, having never seen the dogs work or knowing what they packed. Considering one was a National Champion and both dogs were SchH III's, 1 of which was a WUSV qualifier and another who had high tracking scores, his opinions were...well, unfortunate and inaccurate. Personally much other places that you can get more out of in my opinion. 

Carlos Huerta also does Schutzhund work - nice / great guy. 

There are a couple of ringsport clubs as well, though not as prevalent that I know of. Adrian Moreno trains his own kennel's dogs, and they're exclusively malis. Also, Dennis Bilik does some work in Chicago. 

I know nothing of the PSA scene in Chitown. 

......

Hopefully this was helpful.


----------



## Michael Swetz

Tiffany Damm said:


> CONS:
> ...
> easy to train and very willing to learn
> good with little dogs
> loving to kids, my child can take a raw bone from our dogs mouth.
> Good house dogs. Very aware of their size
> They have off switch.
> Pretty Versatile
> ...


Why are those on your list of cons?


----------



## Shane Woodlief

Tiffany Damm said:


> I have a corso. We train PSA but are doing alot of OB right now and are diversifying.
> Couple pros:
> LOVERS they adore their family and are affectionate to those in it.
> scary on sight
> very territorial and i dont doubt they would do what needed on their own property or vehicle. If you doubt this, come over for a visit.
> If trained wrong (this is with any dog) can be a MESS and very hard to place with other familes.
> There are some working but not many.
> 
> CONS:
> to get a good one $$$$$$$$$$$$ and you want a health garuntee on that size dog
> tons of socializing they need to see everything
> easy to train and very willing to learn
> good with little dogs
> loving to kids, my child can take a raw bone from our dogs mouth.
> Good house dogs. Very aware of their size
> They have off switch.
> Pretty Versatile
> THey can be slow to mature
> 
> Research the breed and make a list of aspects you want for your life, like we did. And we got a corso and we dont regret it for a second.


Do they read, write, do laundry and flush the toilet when they are done as well? :-D


----------



## Tiffany Damm

Fireworks








working.... he was 7 mos here I think. dont quote me. He might have been a smidge older.


----------



## Tiffany Damm

I apologize. I'm at work. I'm not a breeder I am only offering my own personal expirience of the breed. 

Oh and there are some doing schutzhund. Nope no laundry but they can make it disappear.


----------



## Shane Woodlief

I am only playing around - I was not being serious at all. I apologize if I offended you. I honestly was just joking.


----------



## Tiffany Damm

Its ok, you didn't.
I apologize as well, I get on the defense with this breed sometimes.  I also didn't want people to think I was plugging my breeding or anything. I'm just an owner. And I am completely GREEN to PPD
They are great but with any breed and purchase do lots of research.


----------



## Lee H Sternberg

What the hell is going on here. We DON'T apologize for nothing on WDF. It takes all the fun out of ridiculing someone.\\/


----------



## Chris Michalek

Lee H Sternberg said:


> What the hell is going on here. We DON'T apologize for nothing on WDF. It takes all the fun out of ridiculing someone.\\/



I still think my psycho killer costume was the best idea to thwart an attack.


----------



## Gerry Grimwood

Shane Woodlief said:


> Ashley your Bias is showing


There is nothing wrong with that, it's an individuals choice.


----------



## Mike Scheiber

Shane Woodlief said:


> I am only playing around - I was not being serious at all. I apologize if I offended you. I honestly was just joking.





Lee H Sternberg said:


> What the hell is going on here. We DON'T apologize for nothing on WDF. It takes all the fun out of ridiculing someone.\\/


Shane why do you roll over so fast thats no way to run with the big dogs


----------



## Shane Woodlief

Mike Scheiber said:


> Shane why do you roll over so fast thats no way to run with the big dogs


She hasn't posted very many times so I thought I would cut her some slack and explain myself - plus she does have a big Dog! We don't want to piss off the owners of those amazingly powerful Mastiffs 

Your right her dog sucks 

Here is my new smiley by the way


----------



## Ashley Campbell

Shane Woodlief said:


> Do they read, write, do laundry and flush the toilet when they are done as well? :-D


I think it must be a trained trait, I can't get my 4 year old to flush consistently...will trade for a dog that does!


----------



## Nicole Stark

A close compromise are those who eat their own.


----------



## Shane Woodlief

Nicole Stark said:


> A close compromise are those who eat their own.


Now that is just gross!


----------



## Nicole Stark

Shane Woodlief said:


> Now that is just gross!


Heck yea it is! But I hope you know that I was talking about dogs. [-X


----------



## Shane Woodlief

Nicole Stark said:


> Heck yea it is! But I hope you know that I was talking about dogs. [-X


 

LMAO


----------



## Maureen A Osborn

Hey TIffany, just curious who your CC is out of, what breeder and dogs? I have met many at dog shows and most are nerve bag fear biters, I've almost been bit by a couple showing them for people and my friend was bit in the face by one. There are very few CC breeders I would ever recommend to anyone.


----------



## Tiffany Damm

Well are you referring to conformation? Most are nerve bags! Exposed to nothing but the ring with very little bonding, this breed does need to be with the family can't say ibjave seen many gsd show dogs that are much different.I don't care if someone says my dog sucks. He's my dog and he's great with an autistic kid and crowds. I think that says alot and any man that comes on here and says that dog sucks that at less than a yr old accompanied my child to a meusem, gave me the ability to travel, and comforts a 8 yr old but can go out and do some work deserves a face bite. God forbid your child has that issue and you pair a young gsd or Mali with him or her. By the way you don't know me so if you are a trainer or breeder and someday I might seek your services being we are actually all breed and my husband has had gsds, you possibly screwed yourself out of hmmmmm thousands??? Great business plan. 
Ronin actually is show lines but with great training has been developed well.
There is no fear or defense drive happening when it comes to us.
He's been in hotels, cities, fairs, bla bla bla . Bring a nerve bag Mali to a zoo... Just sayin. Any breed 
can be a nerve bag let's not loose site of that fact. I have actually been on this forum a while. I dont post because I see alot of fear bitter owners, thinking their breed is the sh!t when in all reality all 
breeds have a laundry list of issues. Research the breed. Ya might learn something.


----------



## Tiffany Damm

Maureen A Osborn said:


> Hey TIffany, just curious who your CC is out of, what breeder and dogs? I have met many at dog shows and most are nerve bag fear biters, I've almost been bit by a couple showing them for people and my friend was bit in the face by one. There are very few CC breeders I would ever recommend to anyone.


How many do you know? 
Drop some names.


----------



## ISH MOORE

Tiffany Damm said:


> I have a corso. We train PSA but are doing alot of OB right now and are diversifying.
> Couple pros:
> LOVERS they adore their family and are affectionate to those in it.
> scary on sight
> very territorial and i dont doubt they would do what needed on their own property or vehicle. If you doubt this, come over for a visit.
> If trained wrong (this is with any dog) can be a MESS and very hard to place with other familes.
> There are some working but not many.
> 
> CONS:
> to get a good one $$$$$$$$$$$$ and you want a health garuntee on that size dog
> tons of socializing they need to see everything
> easy to train and very willing to learn
> good with little dogs
> loving to kids, my child can take a raw bone from our dogs mouth.
> Good house dogs. Very aware of their size
> They have off switch.
> Pretty Versatile
> THey can be slow to mature
> 
> Research the breed and make a list of aspects you want for your life, like we did. And we got a corso and we dont regret it for a second.


I think that is pretty much the truth.


----------



## Thomas Barriano

Ashley Campbell said:


> I think it must be a trained trait, I can't get my 4 year old to flush consistently...will trade for a dog that does!


Ashley,

Before giving up on your 4 year old. Try rubbing his nose in it and hitting him with a rolled up newspaper. It worked on my cocker
spaniel when I was a kid


----------



## ISH MOORE

Maureen A Osborn said:


> Hey TIffany, just curious who your CC is out of, what breeder and dogs? I have met many at dog shows and most are nerve bag fear biters, I've almost been bit by a couple showing them for people and my friend was bit in the face by one. There are very few CC breeders I would ever recommend to anyone.


Most show dogs of any working breed are a bag of nerves. That's why they showing and not working. lol I help train mutli-police depts. in Va. I seen dog from top GSD working line, KNPV line, etc. Still a bunch of junk. I think most dogs are not good for sport or PPD work. I don't care what breed it is, it is hard to get a good one and most times you are going to pay some money. I think you just have to take your time and do your home work and pray for the best.


----------



## Maureen A Osborn

Tiffany Damm said:


> How many do you know?
> Drop some names.


 quite a few
Mar E Sol
Bel Monte
Godiva
De Italica Terrae
La Faccia
Gator COuntry
Apex
Castleguard
Epic

those are the breeders I can think of off the top of my head and have met and/or shown some of their dogs


----------



## Tiffany Damm

Maureen A Osborn said:


> quite a few
> Mar E Sol
> Bel Monte
> Godiva
> De Italica Terrae
> La Faccia
> Gator COuntry
> Apex
> Castleguard
> Epic
> 
> those are the breeders I can think of off the top of my head and have met and/or shown some of their dogs


 I have met and been around a few of the above too and not seen an issue or I wouldn't have allowed them around my child. Any breed can be a bag of nerves- let's not loose site of the other variables that play a role in ANY breeds development. I'm sure as a handler they are thrilled to see their names listed as dogs you've been around you describe as fear biters on an open forum. Pretty slanderous if I do say so myself and poor business practice. Especially with a few of the above getting ready for eukanuba and Westminster


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## Tiffany Damm

Ronin is a castleguard. I've never heard of any issues and most of his litter mates are doing very well


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## Maureen A Osborn

Tiffany Damm said:


> I have met and been around a few of the above too and not seen an issue or I wouldn't have allowed them around my child. Any breed can be a bag of nerves- let's not loose site of the other variables that play a role in ANY breeds development. I'm sure as a handler they are thrilled to see their names listed as dogs you've been around you describe as fear biters on an open forum. Pretty slanderous if I do say so myself and poor business practice. Especially with a few of the above getting ready for eukanuba and Westminster


 YOu need to get off your high horse there lady! I didnt say anything bad OR good about the above breeders, did not make ANY inference to whose dogs I felt were good or whose I thought wre bad....secondly, I am sure I have been in the dog show and dog world WAY longer than you, and third, I am not a professional trainer OR breeder.....so telling me I have bad business practice is WAY OFF the mark! I would NEVER recommend names on an open forum! However, when I have been handed many a CC and to show and I go to hand stack the dog and it turns and tries to bite my face....same this with presa canarios....I am going to say something about that breed being off....even my breed, the Dogo Argentino has got a lot of tempermental issues, WAY TOO much fear aggression and lack of hunting drives.


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## Tiffany Damm

Maureen A Osborn said:


> YOu need to get off your high horse there lady! I didnt say anything bad OR good about the above breeders, did not make ANY inference to whose dogs I felt were good or whose I thought wre bad....secondly, I am sure I have been in the dog show and dog world WAY longer than you, and third, I am not a professional trainer OR breeder.....so telling me I have bad business practice is WAY OFF the mark! I would NEVER recommend names on an open forum! However, when I have been handed many a CC and to show and I go to hand stack the dog and it turns and tries to bite my face....same this with presa canarios....I am going to say something about that breed being off....even my breed, the Dogo Argentino has got a lot of tempermental issues, WAY TOO much fear aggression and lack of hunting drives.


You stated you handled in events, and you are a handler in your post. You stated the ones you had dealt with are fear biters. Read what you wrote. I didn't make it up. I said list names. You listed dogs you had expirience with none of which was postitve. I merely responded to your statement. I don't care how long you've been in the business, it's a point of ethics or lack thereof. Be careful what you post if you don't want it taken out of context.


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## Tiffany Damm

Read your post that was quoted. Do you think a cc kennel that recognizes your name and sees that won't be offended especially if you were a paid to handle their dogs.


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## Maureen A Osborn

YOu asked me names of breeders I know of, not who had good or bad dogs, just CC that I know....so stop trying to twist my words.....and also I did not say EVERY CC I have handled has tried to bite me, and I did not say that every CC is a fear biter....so get off your high horse and reread what I wrote.


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## Tiffany Damm

Maureen A Osborn said:


> YOu asked me names of breeders I know of, not who had good or bad dogs, just CC that I know....so stop trying to twist my words.....and also I did not say EVERY CC I have handled has tried to bite me, and I did not say that every CC is a fear biter....so get off your high horse and reread what I wrote.


I did read it as did others. There is nothing to twist. Pretty cut and dry. 
No high horse, just enjoying how upset you are getting on something you posted. It's actually funny.


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## Tiffany Damm

No just "most" you have dealt with.


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## Maureen A Osborn

Tiffany Damm said:


> Read your post that was quoted. Do you think a cc kennel that recognizes your name and sees that won't be offended especially if you were a paid to handle their dogs.


 I was NEVER paid to handle people's dogs!!!I am NOT a professional handler! Great ASSUMPTION!!! See, in the dog show world, when you are friends with a lot of people, and you need someone to cover a dog for you, you ask one of your friends to handle a dog for you.....its called COURTESY. Second, I stated that those CC breeders listed are SOME of the ones I have met and or handled their CC, I most definately did not list ALL of them. I think you are just upset casue someone said your CC sucked for one, and for 2, that another person says that CC as a whole breed sucks.....sorry honey, it does! So does my breed! ANd I have only mentioned temperaments, I haven't even gotten into the conformation aspect of them, which is just as bad if not worse! I have already seen a CC become an AKC CH that has a MAJOR DQ FAULT! The CC is a WORKING DOG, and 80% are too big and too fat to get out of their own way let alone WORK!


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## Maureen A Osborn

Tiffany Damm said:


> I did read it as did others. There is nothing to twist. Pretty cut and dry.
> No high horse, just enjoying how upset you are getting on something you posted. It's actually funny.


Ah, OK< you are a troll then, LMAO. I am done with you.


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## Tiffany Damm

Ok works for me. I think you've proven yourself well.


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## Gerry Grimwood

Cat Fight


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## Tiffany Damm

Gerry Grimwood said:


> Cat Fight


I think it's funny as hell. And a great teaching tool as to why you need to always be careful of how and what you post on the Internet. My employee learned a lot. Careful how you word things and keep presepctive that anyone can see it. As fun as this has been since I don't post often, I've got to go turn in paperwork on my big fat slow fear biter.


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## Adam Rawlings

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4wrL9z3Kvww&feature=related

:razz:


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## Maureen A Osborn

Gerry Grimwood said:


> Cat Fight


LOL Gerry.....I was an a$$hole know it all also when I first got into dogos years ago too....even stood by my puppymiller breeder too until I learned better years later:-k after traveling around the US and abroad,meeting many different breeders and dogos


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## maggie fraser

Maureen A Osborn said:


> However, when I have been handed many a CC and to show and I go to hand stack the dog and it turns and tries to bite my face....same this with presa canarios....I am going to say something about that breed being off....


Just curious here....

I took one of my former gsds to a local show just for the hell of it, his first and last. I had noticed the judge had taken quite a fancy to him and he was in the running , however when she got close and personal with him, he bit her...not a big bite but a warning to go and fondle someone else instead.

My point is this....that dog was a very solid, strong nerved dog, just because a dog doesn't like getting felt up by strangers doesn't deem it a nerve crapper does it?


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## Maureen A Osborn

maggie fraser said:


> Just curious here....
> 
> I took one of my former gsds to a local show just for the hell of it, his first and last. I had noticed the judge had taken quite a fancy to him and he was in the running , however when she got close and personal with him, he bit her...not a big bite but a warning to go and fondle someone else instead.
> 
> My point is this....that dog was a very solid, strong nerved dog, just because a dog doesn't like getting felt up by strangers doesn't deem it a nerve crapper does it?


but being that you are the owner/boss/alpha, IMHO, if you said to your dog that that person is ok, then the dog should have accepted what you say is ok is ok, and not take into his/her own accord to bite that person without good reason, ie.unless the judge did something totally stupid(which they have been known to do, like grab their balls really hard and yank, stare them in the eyes, approach really fast or uncertain and reach over the dog's head)....there are lots of things. I've seen some judges that the way they approach the dogs cause they are scared of them also sets a dog off into growling or going after them....I think I know the difference between the judge screwing up or the dog being a nerve bag. Show dogs are supposed to be trained to(desensitized) allow strangers to touch them, grb their balls, open their mouths and examine their bite, etc. If your dog cant do it, then it shouldnt be shown. Last, but not least, it also depends on what the breed's temperament is supposed to be like...a fila is supposed to go after a stranger that approaches the owner, the TM is supposed to be aloof, but not aggressive without a just cause, etc. I had a male dogo years ago that you could not approach me outside the ring unless I allowed you to, but inside the ring, the judge had no problem looking into his mouth, examine him hands on all over, etc. However, as per the breed standard, the dogo is supposed to be "frank,cheerful,friendly" unless given a reason not to be.


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## maggie fraser

I am/was not familiar as was my dog lol I was just sayin. I had also taken a Jack Russell to a local show, we had come first in a class of around thirty dogs....he bit the judge on presenting us with our prize...but it was too late, I had the rosette in my hand.


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## Ashley Campbell

AKC conformation rules *gag* state that any dog that bites the judge is automatically dismissed, though any dog with good nerves should tolerate being fondled by a stranger as long as the owner allows it. Just like the vets office, they have to examine your dog and shouldn't have to stress about being bitten because the dogs doesn't like being felt up.


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## Maureen A Osborn

Ashley Campbell said:


> AKC conformation rules *gag* state that any dog that bites the judge is automatically dismissed, though any dog with good nerves should tolerate being fondled by a stranger as long as the owner allows it. Just like the vets office, they have to examine your dog and shouldn't have to stress about being bitten because the dogs doesn't like being felt up.


you can even go as far after saying that a dog with good nerves should allow a stranger to touch it b/c the owner says so, IF they owner has made itself clear to the dog that THEY are the alpha, if not, the dog may feel insecure and feel that its owner doesn't have control of the situation and the dog then therefore must take control of the situation that is making it uncomfortable, ie growling or biting.


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## Bob Scott

Ashley Campbell said:


> I think it must be a trained trait, I can't get my 4 year old to flush consistently...will trade for a dog that does!



I'll swap your 4yr for my 97yr old FIL that lives with us. 
He's very good about flushing..............course he hasn't come even close to hitting the bowl in a couple of yrs now. ](*,) ](*,) ](*,)


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## Adam Rawlings

Bob Scott said:


> I'll swap your 4yr for my 97yr old FIL that lives with us.
> He's very good about flushing..............course he hasn't come even close to hitting the bowl in a couple of yrs now. ](*,) ](*,) ](*,)


At least your not changing diapers. [-o<


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## Ashley Campbell

Bob Scott said:


> I'll swap your 4yr for my 97yr old FIL that lives with us.
> He's very good about flushing..............course he hasn't come even close to hitting the bowl in a couple of yrs now. ](*,) ](*,) ](*,)


Sure thing, my 4 year old has no aim either. No givesy backsys!


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## Bob Scott

Adam Rawlings said:


> At least your not changing diapers. [-o<[/QUOTE
> 
> Yet. :lol:


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## Bob Scott

Ashley Campbell said:


> Sure thing, my 4 year old has no aim either. No givesy backsys!


Deal! He can play with my 4 yr old grandson that I baby sit for. 
Being little boys, I'll bet they can teach one another all kinds of neat "stuff."
Did I tell yo my FIL is Romanian from the Transylvainian Mountains? They all live to be 125. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :twisted: 
!!!NO GIVESY BACKSYS!!!    mmuuuaahhhhhaaaaahhaaaaa! :twisted: :twisted: :razz:


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## Ashley Campbell

You realize that's like a sitcom right? 
If he still harbors any ill will to the turks for the Ottoman Empire taking over Romania...he might slit my throat in my sleep, lol! Granted it's been a long time but some families still harbor bad feelings over the Civil war so you never know.


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## Bob Scott

Ashley Campbell said:


> You realize that's like a sitcom right?
> If he still harbors any ill will to the turks for the Ottoman Empire taking over Romania...he might slit my throat in my sleep, lol! Granted it's been a long time but some families still harbor bad feelings over the Civil war so you never know.


As long as your not a Gypsy......and they can't hold a candle to vampires.......seriously! :lol:


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## Mike Jones

I see there is a lot of talk about Cane Corso working. I've seen some working and they look pretty good. However, I've also seen some that are not so good. 

Ish I looked at your kennel Dreamteam Cane Corso and you have some nice looking dogs. Then found some video of your Cane Corso and Fila Sao Miguel working on youtube. They looked a bit nervy. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K4dQr_y7x8s and 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qbOBe5TQNDw&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL


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## Wawashkashi Tashi

Bob Scott said:


> There are always exceptions but the majority of the mastiff breeds I've seen are either nerve bags or couch potato lovers. ***Or BOTH***
> The Cane Corso would be at the top of my nerve bag list in the group. *No argument here on that one, either!*


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## Wawashkashi Tashi

Tiffany Damm said:


> Nope no laundry but they can make it disappear.


Another bonus of the molossers! Once they make your laundry disappear, they can make it *reappear* without requiring surgery!!! :grin:


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## Chris Michalek

here is the ultimate personal protection dog


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## Colin Chin

Chris Michalek said:


> my wife runs 5-7mi most days per week and she takes the rottie with her.


Chris,
If I remember correctly, you got a Mal so that it can be your wife's jogging partner in your earlier post. Cheers.


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## Chris Michalek

Colin Chin said:


> Chris,
> If I remember correctly, you got a Mal so that it can be your wife's jogging partner in your earlier post. Cheers.



she runs with the mal sometimes but is more comfortable with the rottie because he's obedient to her. The mal doesn't listen as well and will come back at her if she corrects him. Their relationship is getting better...

The Rottie can't handle the summer heat though. Not at all.


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## Mike Jones

Chris Michalek said:


> here is the ultimate personal protection dog


Now this is my kind og dog. Dual purpose teeth and a knife.


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## Colin Chin

Chris Michalek said:


> she runs with the mal sometimes but is more comfortable with the rottie because he's obedient to her. The mal doesn't listen as well and will come back at her if she corrects him. Their relationship is getting better...
> 
> The Rottie can't handle the summer heat though. Not at all.


Hi Chris,
Thanks for the clarification. Is it true that most Mal will bite the owners if being corrected ? Does he do that to you or you being the alpha he won't turn against you ?


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## Harry Keely

Colin Chin said:


> Hi Chris,
> Thanks for the clarification. Is it true that most Mal will bite the owners if being corrected ? Does he do that to you or you being the alpha he won't turn against you ?


I know you ask Chris, but i couldn't help myself, NO its not true most malis will bite there handlers. Thats a myth started by people for the most part that have never even owned one. Any dog can a will bite there handler do to poor working relationship bond between handler and dog. Some say the dogs are to dam hard thats bullshit its more like the handler is chicken shit:evil: and lets the dog walk the handler instead of the handler walking the dog. JMO


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## Colin Chin

Harry Keely said:


> I know you ask Chris, but i couldn't help myself, NO its not true most malis will bite there handlers. Thats a myth started by people for the most part that have never even owned one. Any dog can a will bite there handler do to poor working relationship bond between handler and dog. Some say the dogs are to dam hard thats bullshit its more like the handler is chicken shit:evil: and lets the dog walk the handler instead of the handler walking the dog. JMO


Hi Harry,
Unless one handles wrongly on the correction part ? Like unfair correction ?


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## Chris Michalek

I don't really know what goes on with her. I know she (my wife) is nowhere near as dominant as I am. I think the corrections stem from the dog wanting to stop and piss or smell while running, I've told her to give him a little pop for that. He's never bit her hard, just a nip or he'll put his teeth on her and she doesn't like that. The last time they ran was about a month ago and there were no incidents over a four mile run.


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