# calm vs. reactive....



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

I have had the luxury of having the dog out of the crate for extended periods of time lately in the house over the last month...

today I recieved 3 shipments, 2 from UPS (same truck, 2 different times, for whatever reason) and one from Fed-Ex..and then a small group of older kids (pre-teen) also came on the porch and knocked on the door, looking for their friend (wrong house)....

all 4 times the dog heard someone walking on the porch, and she immediately sprang to the door, and when the people gave the customary knock, she went nuts at the door..and when they were walking away, she was in the window, barking at them....when I opened the door, the only time people were still on the porch was the group of kids, but the dog still was aggressive....

the dog has had ZERO PP training at the house...

is this a good thing or a bad thing, in your opinion, should she be calmer, or more accepting of a knock from normal non-threatening people? or kids at the door, should she not bark at them, or want to bite them?

should I train her to NOT react to the door or someone walking on the porch? or only do that, if it is kids?


----------



## Doug Zaga (Mar 28, 2010)

Agitate your dogs more should go ballistic and try going through the window!!!

My dog hates the mailman, mailwoman, fedex, UPS, my fence guy moost adults but likes kids will lick their fingers off. The other day he went nuts at the front door for the mailman almost went through the glass... ripped the back paw nail off leaving the quick exposed... stupid dog still goes crazy even limping in pain. 

Me in knee pain from surgery and him in pain...two limping fools! :razz:

Funny he is a social dog out an about but in his crate, house or SUV he is a PUNK as my club members call him! Typical Rottweiler I guess...


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Doug Zaga said:


> Agitate your dogs more should go ballistic and try going through the window!!!
> 
> My dog hates the mailman, mailwoman, fedex, UPS, my fence guy moost adults but likes kids will lick their fingers off. The other day he went nuts at the front door for the mailman almost went through the glass... ripped the back paw nail off leaving the quick exposed... stupid dog still goes crazy even limping in pain.
> 
> ...


the dog is super quiet and non-reactive in the jeep, in the crate or out of it, I dont like dogs going nuts in the car...training is a different story, if she can see dogs working, or hear the action...
in general the car is not an issue, you could walk up to the window and cup your hands to look through the tint without a problem most likely...

so you are saying if kids knock on the door the dog doesnt bark or whatever?...so he just knows it is kids?

my dogs likes kids too, but wants to keep them off the porch, or so it seems...


----------



## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

i like the reactive part as long as it is controllable..... and not an oxymoron imo 

current (reactive) house dog was a door eater ... 

it took time, but i conditioned him to figure out i would be the one to go to the door. would get in front of the punk and let him know i had checked out the door situation and HIS job was DONE at that point and all he needed to do was plant his butt and stand by to wait "for further instructions" 
(sometimes i'd toss a tug to reward good door manners)
- he caught on pretty fast that i appreciated his "concern", but i would decide if further noise was in order, and i ALWAYS did that by ME going to the door to step in front and take over...trying to just "call him off" from his alerting with me never leaving my spot went no where 
- i also made it a point to have him stay behind me planted in a sit when i opened the door to pick up whatever was being delivered, or when asking the sales idiots why they hadn't read the sign that says we aren't interested :-((((
- yes this requires some prior OB control skills from the dog, but imo it doesn't kill all PP potential and makes the door a bit safer for those who enter/exit, etc
- but i'm sure there are other ways to deal with this reactivity

he is just as reactive, but the PITA factor has been dealt with


----------



## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Joby Becker said:


> I have had the luxury of having the dog out of the crate for extended periods of time lately in the house over the last month...
> 
> today I recieved 3 shipments, 2 from UPS (same truck, 2 different times, for whatever reason) and one from Fed-Ex..and then a small group of older kids (pre-teen) also came on the porch and knocked on the door, looking for their friend (wrong house)....
> 
> ...



Don't you want the dog to alert but then to stop when you say to?

I know I don't train PP .... but I've spent a lot of time training various dogs that I will respond to their alert and then will tell them it's OK. 

I use a specific cue for it, a cue I have repeated hundreds of times, so the words are pretty much automatic.

(Of course, this means that I always have to go and look and respond, every single time. And I do.)


----------



## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Huh. We kinda said the same thing! :smile:

At the same moment! :lol:





rick smith said:


> i like the reactive part as long as it is controllable..... and not an oxymoron imo
> 
> current (reactive) house dog was a door eater ...
> 
> ...


----------



## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

one thing i need to add...
in Japan, we don't often lock our front doors
delivery people can open the door, stick their head in and ask if anyone is there
these are socially accepted correct manners for a house that is also a business ... and i don't have the time to explain what a "genkan" is, etc ...so pleese don't ask 

- but i CANNOT have a door eater
- plus since our house is also a ballet/flamenco studio, it would be a SLIGHT problem if i had a dog that ate kids


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

OOH, the dog is 100% controllable, will alert on command, bite on command, and will down, or go into some other position while reacting on her own and cap herself...I can also call her to position, out of it, or if I hear someone on the porch I can put her in a position or tell her couch, or crate, or have her sit while I open the door...

everything is 100% controllable..

I was just wondering if the dog should be suspicious be nature and react on her own if allowed to, or if she should somehow discern a real threat at the door.....and control herself  I mean afterall it was kids at the door...

so the dog is a PUNK? if it is attempting to ward off strangers on my porch? even if she will fight a 300 lb man who is 6'4" in a muzzle?
do I have that correct?


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Well, I like the ones that let me know that someone is on the property. They are fired if they don't. That said, Khira-bouv is the least territorial reactive dog I've owned as far as alerts around the house. She's very guardy of the car though. She seems more alert at this age and now that I live out in the middle of nowhere but I have a couple of noise maker corgi pups that start to bark when they hear wheels on the gravel. Like Connie said, I don't know that there is any training involved other than to stop when you say admit them to the house if you say. I've never trained a dog to alert at someone knocking or entering without permission. That's one of those things I think in certain breeds ought to be instinctual.

T


----------



## Doug Zaga (Mar 28, 2010)

Joby Becker said:


> so the dog is a PUNK? if it is attempting to ward off strangers on my porch? even if she will fight a 300 lb man who is 6'4" in a muzzle?
> do I have that correct?


Who said she is a PUNK?


----------



## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Doug Zaga said:


> Who said she is a PUNK?


Ditto.

Joby, you having a cocktail or two?


----------



## Doug Zaga (Mar 28, 2010)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Ditto.
> 
> Joby, you having a cocktail or two?


Connie...maybe Joby is smoking/snortin some of that recalled kibble


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Ditto.
> 
> Joby, you having a cocktail or two?


not tonight...

I was just thinking about this whole Kid thing, and the innocent ups and fed-ex guys...trying to pick peoples brains..

I was thinking that some peoples dogs somehow discerned who was ok or not by themselves...and reacted appropriately..

the punk thing I got from Rick, who labeled his dog a punk for chargin the door and eatin it..
I had a door eater, I would never call him a punk personally...not to his face anyhow 

just trying to keep it all straight, in regards to what is the "norm"...


----------



## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Joby Becker said:


> not tonight...
> 
> I was just thinking about this whole Kid thing, and the innocent ups and fed-ex guys...trying to pick peoples brains..
> 
> ...




Gotcha.




For me, this isn't the dog's job:
_
"I was thinking that some peoples dogs somehow discerned who was ok or not by themselves...and reacted appropriately."_


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Gotcha.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


but what if they are just kids?

OH...and thanks for the emails and PM's, and thanks for putting me on to Anne, and thanks Anne.  got it all figured out, the market had fresh butchered quarters for .49 this week ...


----------



## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Joby Becker said:


> OH...and thanks for the emails and PM's, and thanks for putting me on to Anne, and thanks Anne.  got it all figured out, the market had fresh butchered quarters for .49 this week ...


Oh, good!


----------



## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

and back to




Joby Becker said:


> but what if they are just kids?


----------



## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

no free time to go into detail now but it's a diff situation and Joby and me prob need diff types of K9 "door reactivity and response"
- wasn't implying his dog was punkish
- for me i know my dog does not have the brains to analyze a threat on the other side of the door (he has confirmed that) and in this particular area i don't want him thinking/reacting on his own, even tho i do want him to alert 24/7
- kids issues... they all act different and are unpredictable, whether they know the dog or not ... since "kids" elementary to junior high age are rarely B/E types that require biting/gripping i pretty much want my dog neutral and non reactive to all kids and he's still not 100% safe in that area yet

- but it also gets back to the PP issue of how do you train a PPD to analyze threats correctly and act independently without creating a liability issue....not easy to do but great if you can do it imo


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> I was thinking that some peoples dogs somehow discerned who was ok or not by themselves...and reacted appropriately..
> "...


On the other side of a door? Even the kid lovers aren't going to know what or who is on the other side of a steel door. During the younger years when kids were always in and out and subject to show up I kept tabs on Teva. The discernment that I've seen with mine has nothing to do with territoriality and entrances and exits.

T


----------



## Sally Crunkleton (Jan 13, 2012)

My dog tore all the sheetrock off the walls by my front door one summer. I thought he was insane. 
My neighbor informed me later that year that they could hear him raise hell every day when the school bus dropped of the kids, but he only started when certain kids walked by.
I found out why.....turns out the dog wasn't the punk- I happen to be home one day and caught the kid banging on the windows around my door and barking at my dogs. This happened to be one of the boys that sent him into rage each day after school.
Point is, is it possible someone has teased your dog? 

Mine (when I had 2 dogs still) actually opened the front door once as the ups man was leaving a box. All I can say is I wish I had a camera outside then. According to neighbors they had a plan. Anyhoo- don't wanna derail your thread!

Point is, I would rather have the heads up that anyone is on my property vs a non-chalant dog.


----------



## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

Joby Becker said:


> I have had the luxury of having the dog out of the crate for extended periods of time lately in the house over the last month...
> 
> today I recieved 3 shipments, 2 from UPS (same truck, 2 different times, for whatever reason) and one from Fed-Ex..and then a small group of older kids (pre-teen) also came on the porch and knocked on the door, looking for their friend (wrong house)....
> 
> ...


 
Where I come from, if someone trespasses and gets bit, it is that person's problem. As long as you have warning signs on your property and it is properly fenced... no worries. 

I want/look for a serious dog anywhere/everywhere, whether it will be used as a sport or service dog. The scenario you just described, is what I expect from my dogs naturally.

Control can always be added later...


----------



## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Mine all go ballistic if someone knocks and will run to the window barking if they walk away. 

Open the door and a couple want to greet, several will check the situation out and walk off and one will keep barking, she puts her head right up on the persons thigh, looks them in the eye and kind of barks and applies pressure for them to back up if they approach me. She will back off when I tell her to but she keeps an eye on them at all times. 

She only does this with random strangers like tradesmen, if I have friend over, even one she hasnt met, she quickly backs off and relaxes. I would supect she is highly unlikely to bite, but she is pretty bold and she will apply pressure to them with her body and stare at them if she thinks they are taking any liberties. She is highly suspicious of tradies but is very far form being aggressive, more bold and bossy and not afraid to let them know LOL. She never barks at kids which is strange, they fly right under her radar.

She would chase the mailman when we lived in suburbia, but was only interested the motor bike tyres, not the person.


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Sally Crunkleton said:


> My dog tore all the sheetrock off the walls by my front door one summer. I thought he was insane.
> My neighbor informed me later that year that they could hear him raise hell every day when the school bus dropped of the kids, but he only started when certain kids walked by.
> I found out why.....turns out the dog wasn't the punk- I happen to be home one day and caught the kid banging on the windows around my door and barking at my dogs. This happened to be one of the boys that sent him into rage each day after school.
> Point is, is it possible someone has teased your dog?
> ...


Dont worry about derailing, I want to hear that one.


----------



## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

I don't think it's a matter of training at all, I wouldn't train a desired response for a doorknock. Mine all bark when someone enters the driveway, but they can't see who it is. They just need to quiet if I'm talking is all.


----------



## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

My last dog as a pup got to know the sound of the UPS truck. I lived in a condo neighborhood. So the UPS truck was there every day. I also owned my own business and had packages delivered many times a week. I observed several times the dog barking in his crate, soon I was able to here the UPS truck. The dog continued to bark as the truck came and went to my neighbors house. As soon as the truck was no longer in ear shot the dog wins and quited down.
So the dog got to know the sound of the truck, then the sound of the man coming up the steps, then leaving, and finally driving away. Why did he leave? Because the dog barked at him, thus the dog got what he wanted and that was the threat to leave.
So your dog may have learned the sound of the bus, and what followed is an attack on the house, dog barks, threat goes away, dog wins.
Personally I like a dog that will bark when someone comes to the door.


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

good stuff.
thanks for the opinions...

no one really teases the dog (cept me sometimes  ) so I dont have that problem.

Although, since we have moved here (me and the dog), for the last coupla years, once it is warm enough, all the kids in the neighborhood seem to like to set up there soccer goals in the street in front of our house, they kick the ball into everyones houses and cars, and we are the only people that seem to get upset about it..LOL..

The dog used to go nuts over those soccer balls , now she knows she is not gonna be allowed to go pop their ball, while they are playing with it. even though I would love to let her..

If they leave the balls in the street, and no one is outside, and I am driving through, I usually try to run them over, along with their little cones...or if we are walking at night and I see one, I let her pop it, if it is out on the street. We will continue to eradicate loose soccer balls. There is a huge park with nice soccer field about 2 blocks away.


----------



## Doug Zaga (Mar 28, 2010)

Joby Becker said:


> If they leave the balls in the street, and no one is outside, and I am driving through, I usually try to run them over, along with their little cones...or if we are walking at night and I see one, I let her pop it, if it is out on the street. We will continue to eradicate loose soccer balls. There is a huge park with nice soccer field about 2 blocks away.


Watch out for the soccer moms kicking ur azz!


----------



## Brett Bowen (May 2, 2011)

I don't mind the alerting at the door or anything else that's out of place. Would rather have them let us know something is not right. I do mind when they can't hear me tell them to "quiet" and to go to their designated spots for door guests. Between the three of them (and hard wood floors) they just get so loud (I even think they time their barking so there's no dead spot for me to give a command) I don't think they hear me but still aggravating. I do mind my kids' dog alerting though as history has shown that a plastic bag floating across the backyard is cause to raise her hackles and freak out like we're all going to be killed by this murderous wal-mart bag that's mysteriously floating around that will soon consume the whole house........


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

missed a great chance for a video today...

the dog stuck her head inside of an empty Coca-Cola 24 pack cardboard case, through a hole ripped out of where the handle is, she took of with it on her head, and was running into stuff, looking like a hammerhead shark....Then she started barking at herself , almost went out the window screen, it was hilarious...

once I got her head out of it, she shredded the crap out of it....


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Joby Becker said:


> missed a great chance for a video today...
> 
> the dog stuck her head inside of an empty Coca-Cola 24 pack cardboard case, through a hole ripped out of where the handle is, she took of with it on her head, and was running into stuff, looking like a hammerhead shark....Then she started barking at herself , almost went out the window screen, it was hilarious...
> 
> once I got her head out of it, she shredded the crap out of it....



Sounds like you've got the makings for a great portable paper shredder! :grin: :wink:


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Sally Crunkleton said:


> Mine (when I had 2 dogs still) actually opened the front door once as the ups man was leaving a box. .


So did mine. As she hit the handle and opened it, the UPS guy slammed it shut and held it as I was flying down the stairs. From then on the rule was front door ALWAYS closed and storm door locked.

T


----------



## Sally Crunkleton (Jan 13, 2012)

Joby Becker said:


> Dont worry about derailing, I want to hear that one.


Ok then here it goes.....my neighbors husband was home waiting for a package, do when he heard the ups truck coming he went to the front door.

Truck stops at my place 1st with a pretty big package. Neighbor said as the ups man stepped on the porch, the front door swung open and both dogs came out raising hell and circling the guy.

At this point neighbor come out of his house and calling my dogs names (dogs knew neighbor and family well). The ups man reacted by dropping the package, holding up his arms as if it were a stick up, and started talking real sweet .

As neighbor approached, the older GSD returned to the porch but blocked the doorway staring off with the man, and the other one ran to the ups truck and got in the drivers seat, and sat facing the poor guy. It's like they had a plan to just hold him their until I got home.

So grateful the guy reacted right and didn't run.....and even more grateful my neighbor was there to put them back inside! Still wish I had that in video now!


----------



## Sally Crunkleton (Jan 13, 2012)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> So did mine. As she hit the handle and opened it, the UPS guy slammed it shut and held it as I was flying down the stairs. From then on the rule was front door ALWAYS closed and storm door locked.
> 
> T


I don't have handles, I have round doorknobs.....all I could think of is that it was not dead-bolted, and since it was cool, maybe the wood shrunk enough that when the monster hit the door, it popped open enough to get his nose through and fling it open...

I put a new lock with a code on the door....would be nasty if that happened when the kids were teasing him.


----------



## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

I remember that story, NICE. I can picture that.


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

My favorite "protection" story with my dogs was about two years after I move here.
For some reason Thunder and Trooper got out and roamed the neighborhood. Half a block down someone saw them, knew where they lived and tried to call them into their van. Trooper saw it as a road trip and jumped right in. The guy said when he walked over to Thunder, Thunder's tail went up and he got "a bit rigid" so he left him and headed slowly for the house with Trooper in his van. 
Thunder followed the van/Trooper and when the guy pulled up in front of the house and got out Thunder shoved his nose up the guys ass and escorted him every step to the front door. I never taught him and escort other then for sport (schutzhund). He did this all on his own.
Luckily this guy had a fairly good read on dogs and stayed calm while he knocked on the door. When my wife answered the door Thunder started growling a bit till the wife told him to back off and put him in a down. 
The guy told the story, the wife thanked him and they both had a good laugh over it.
Thunder is a calm, clear headed dog that can be very reactive. Trooper is a hyper clown that could probably over react if pressed.


----------



## Sally Crunkleton (Jan 13, 2012)

Jerry Lyda said:


> I remember that story, NICE. I can picture that.


I wish I had a picture of it!


----------

