# Dominance training



## Gillian Schuler

I've started to read on a German forum about dominance training.

Apparently, Edgar Scherkl's dog had his first bite at 15 months. The time before, the pup / young dog was trained in dominating the helper.

(My dog training language is Swiss German and I have certain problems even in my English mother tongue.)

I have read articles about not letting a pup bite too early and could actually understand this. The desire to bite can overcome the desire to dominate the helper?

Do we create prey dogs or are they born?

How can you assess the dominance of the dog vs the helper when the sleeve is the all important factor?


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## Gillian Schuler

I forgot something:

if the pup has been trained from an early age to bite the sleeve, then the dominance towards the helper will often be overcome with difficulty?


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## Joby Becker

Gillian.

Can you explain how a dog is taught to dominate the helper, before it is biting, in IPO?


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## Gillian Schuler

This is what we did with our pups a number of years ago:

We brought the pup to the helper and he retreated - the pup was praised for "making him retreat".

I think the idea that the pup can bite first off makes him ignore the threat of the helper?

With our Swiss National working trials in the guarding exercise we used to approach the pup / dog and as soon as he made a threatening growl, we retreated. It worked in most cases.

Maybe put a bit simply but if a pup feels he can get a helper to disapper, he grows in size?

It's not only good for IPO.


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## Joby Becker

Gillian Schuler said:


> This is what we did with our pups a number of years ago:
> 
> We brought the pup to the helper and he retreated - the pup was praised for "making him retreat".
> 
> I think the idea that the pup can bite first off makes him ignore the threat of the helper?
> 
> With our Swiss National working trials in the guarding exercise we used to approach the pup / dog and as soon as he made a threatening growl, we retreated. It worked in most cases.
> 
> Maybe put a bit simply but if a pup feels he can get a helper to disapper, he grows in size?


gotcha. That makes sense for sure... I was thinking more in regards to domination as in physical control and opposition ..


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## Gillian Schuler

I'm thinking that the pup / young dog learns to get the helper to retreat and this builds confidence.

Most of our dogs can bite (?)

From what I can remember, we used to do this before we started the bite work. I'm an old fogey.

Now it's all bite, bite, bite from 8 weeks on and the helper is a friend not a foe??

Don't mind me if you are not in agreement


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## Joby Becker

Gillian Schuler said:


> I'm thinking that the pup / young dog learns to get the helper to retreat and this builds confidence.
> 
> Most of our dogs can bite (?)
> 
> From what I can remember, we used to do this before we started the bite work. I'm an old fogey.
> 
> Now it's all bite, bite, bite from 8 weeks on and the helper is a friend not a foe??
> 
> Don't mind me if you are not in agreement


well.. its not ALL bite bite bite, obviously, but I do understand what you are saying.

I think it depends alot on what you are doing. I think also in IPO there is more focus on appearing to be more real somehow, than in other sports, with the guarding and the like..

Most of the videos I watch of the NVBK pups and dogs, and the KNPV pups and dogs, sometimes appear to be quite different than many of the things that are done in higher level IPO type training in theory, yet I do not see the dogs appearing to be any less dominating towards the helpers in my mind anyhow.

Could be the type of dogs moreso, and the picture the people want, as there does not seem to be much deliberate defense promotion either going on, as there is in IPO. 

just rambling here now


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## Bob Scott

Gillian Schuler said:


> This is what we did with our pups a number of years ago:
> 
> We brought the pup to the helper and he retreated - the pup was praised for "making him retreat".
> 
> I think the idea that the pup can bite first off makes him ignore the threat of the helper?
> 
> With our Swiss National working trials in the guarding exercise we used to approach the pup / dog and as soon as he made a threatening growl, we retreated. It worked in most cases.
> 
> Maybe put a bit simply but if a pup feels he can get a helper to disapper, he grows in size?
> 
> It's not only good for IPO.



Mail carriers have been doing that for dogs forever. 
Walk up to the door, rattle the mail slot and when the dog inside starts barking the mail carrier retreats. The dog starts learning how to chase the bad guy away. 
In no time at all the dog thinks it's a killer. :grin::wink:


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## Matt Vandart

Gillian Schuler said:


> I'm thinking that the pup / young dog learns to get the helper to retreat and this builds confidence.
> 
> Most of our dogs can bite (?)
> 
> From what I can remember, we used to do this before we started the bite work. I'm an old fogey.
> 
> Now it's all bite, bite, bite from 8 weeks on and the helper is a friend not a foe??
> 
> *Don't mind me if you are not in agreement*


Don't mind me if I am in complete agreement!
This is how I have always understood protection training, it's only when I started getting interested in IPO and everyone on forums told me I was doing it wrong I started thinking any different.

That's sealed it, I'm going back to the old school! ROFL


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## Gillian Schuler

Just a pity there is not more response, even from the ones that don't agree with what I say.

Well, guess it's time to take a Summer vacation or whatever! Ciao!


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## Bob Scott

I *DO *agree with your method. As I said it's the basics behind why dogs go crazy when the mail carrier (postal carrier) comes around.


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## Joby Becker

Bob Scott said:


> I *DO *agree with your method. As I said it's the basics behind why dogs go crazy when the mail carrier (postal carrier) comes around.


does that equate to the dog actually DOMINATING the mailman though??


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## Ted Summers

I was under the impression that this was SOP in ALL biting sports. Teach them from a young age that barking drives the bad guy away, then bark for what you want (sleeve, suit, man). In the dog's mind it appears they are 'forcing' the decoy away from the sleeve, tug, suit, whatever with barking. I've always done this.... I even did it with my working JRT. Backtied her to build drive and confidence.... it worked, she'd play the piano for a ball or a chance to go-to-ground. If it's 'dominating' or not is hard to say.... I mean..... the mail carrier did run off, after all. In the dog's mind, the barking had the desired effect.


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## Joby Becker

Ted Summers said:


> I was under the impression that this was SOP in ALL biting sports. Teach them from a young age that barking drives the bad guy away, then bark for what you want (sleeve, suit, man). In the dog's mind it appears they are 'forcing' the decoy away from the sleeve, tug, suit, whatever with barking. I've always done this.... I even did it with my working JRT. Backtied her to build drive and confidence.... it worked, she'd play the piano for a ball or a chance to go-to-ground. If it's 'dominating' or not is hard to say.... I mean..... the mail carrier did run off, after all. In the dog's mind, the barking had the desired effect.


not everyone wants the dog barking much. sometimes barking is just a side product of the frustration, and is not really purposefully encouraged. but for IPO...yea for sure.


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## Gillian Schuler

*Ithos vom Parchimer Land 3 months C*


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## Joby Becker

Gillian Schuler said:


> *Ithos vom Parchimer Land 3 months C*


thanks for sharing the video...


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## Gillian Schuler

The same pup in "B":

*Ithos vom Parchimer Land 3 months B*


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## Katie Finlay

I train my dog to know that she is powerful without having to bite the helper. She can activate him and get a reaction from him with her barking. She learns that she can control the fight, so to speak. It's easy to see when dogs have not been trained to be (or just aren't) confident. Many don't want to out and face the helper, because they don't feel powerful that way when he's staring them in the eyes.

I think this is the most important foundation training you can do for biting dogs. And I didn't start bite work until my dog was 14 months old.


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## Mario Fernandez

Team Heuwinkl does this a lot. The video is Florian K and Peter Schreck taking pictures. They do this to all their young dogs...from age 10 weeks and up...builds a bond with the handler and dog...more important it helps the Pysche of the dog...


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## Gillian Schuler

It is the Heuwinkel training but it is also how we used to train our pups/young dogs a number of years ago.

Somehow or other the grips started to dominate and one had the idea that one would have to train the grips from a young age, regardless of how adamant the pup/dog was to get to attack the helper??


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## Derek Milliken

Agreed Gillian,
Too often technical perfection seems to take precedence, and power gets lost.
Too bad really, it makes the sport so much less interesting.
The funny thing is, that here you have a team putting up the points, showing the technical precision, and not losing sight of developing power right from an early age.
Bravo to them and anyone else looking to keep the full picture of what IPO should be!
Derek


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## Frank Hutto

Mario Fernandez said:


> Team Heuwinkl does this a lot. The video is Florian K and Peter Schreck taking pictures. They do this to all their young dogs...from age 10 weeks and up...builds a bond with the handler and dog...more important it helps the Pysche of the dog...


Mario,
Where on their page is the video? I scrolled through the video page on their website and went through the old posts too, but didn't see it. 
-Frank


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## Mario Fernandez

your not going to find it on Team heuwinkl page because the video Gillian posted is from the Mecberger Kennel. The handler is Mia Skogster and her late dog Ithos.


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## Bob Scott

Joby Becker said:


> does that equate to the dog actually DOMINATING the mailman though??



In it's own mind it does. ;-)


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## Frank Hutto

Mario Fernandez said:


> your not going to find it on Team heuwinkl page because the video Gillian posted is from the Mecberger Kennel. The handler is Mia Skogster and her late dog Ithos.


Gotcha. I initially missed the videos Gillian posted, but I watched them now. Really interesting stuff. 


For those that follow this type of training program, how often do you do that civil stuff when the pup is young? Once a week, once a month, etc.? Also, how old are your dogs when they finally take a bite from the helper?


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## Christopher Smith

Joby Becker said:


> does that equate to the dog actually DOMINATING the mailman though??


 
No but it's the first step. 


What the dog learns is that he is in control of protection work not the helper. He learns that he can turn off the pressure of the helper by doing certain behaviors or state of mind. When dogs are trained like this they tend to do most of the things we want them to do in IPO naturally.


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## Joby Becker

I was taught this the first time I ever worked a dog, when working with a protection trainer that did personal protection, and also was Sch helper, 20 years ago...

is it really that foreign of an idea these days? I will admit I did not see many people working dogs like this in SCH when I was playing around with it, but almost all the PP guys I know do similar work.


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## Christopher Smith

Joby Becker said:


> I was taught this the first time I ever worked a dog, when working with a protection trainer that did personal protection, and also was Sch helper, 20 years ago...
> 
> is it really that foreign of an idea these days? I will admit I did not see many people working dogs like this in SCH when I was playing around with it, but almost all the PP guys I know do similar work.


 

Are you kidding me? Hell yeah it's that foreign these days!!! Look how many videos you see of 4 or 5 month old puppies doing bite work. Look how quick people are to tell new comers to the sport that they should work their own dog. How many times have you heard people on this board brag about how they teach all of the protection on themselves first then they take the dog to a helper? People are training protection like it's simply a series of behaviors with tugging on the sleeve as a reward. They don't train with emotional content.


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## Derek Milliken

Christopher Smith said:


> They don't train with emotional content.


That's just it.
You can train technique by yourself for sure.
But if all you train is technique then you miss out on attitude and "emotional content" of the exercise.
And that's just as important as the technique.


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## Frank Hutto

I wouldn't say it's a foreign idea, as I've done it before with older pups (6 months+) and dogs, but I've never seen it done with pups as young as 10-12 weeks. So if there is an element that is foreign to me, it's the extra early start. 

My experience with the technique, both in doing and seeing, has been incorporating it after starting some prey work on the helper and when you're ready to start progressing to the bark and hold, so it's always been on older dogs. From what I can tell, though, those who are starting it at 10-12 weeks have a training program that's rather different than mine, so I was asking details to try and get a better understanding of the overall training program.


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## rick smith

wouldn't this be one of explaining the difference in dominance training :
let the dog work the helper rather than the helper work the dog ?

hard to describe in words...but makes perfect sense to me //lol//

when i do see this happening, i always see the dog getting stronger, whether it is given a bite or not

what i usually see on a lot of you tube "bite work" clips is a helper gradually moving in while agitating the dog while the handler is hanging on for dear life .... and eventually releasing the dog .... 

even tho there might be some "dancin around" stuff, rarely is the helper allowing the dog to drive him back, and i almost never see the handler allowing the dog to drive the helper totally out of the area


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## Christopher Smith

Derek Milliken said:


> You can train technique by yourself for sure.


Sure you can, but then you are conditioning the dog to believe that protection is a game. That his barking,bite and counter has no real power in it. I believe that if the puppy learns that biting you, his friend, is okay and has no real effect he will also think that it has no effect on other people too.


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## Christopher Smith

Frank Hutto said:


> I wouldn't say it's a foreign idea, as I've done it before with older pups (6 months+) and dogs, but I've never seen it done with pups as young as 10-12 weeks.


I have never seen a puppy that could do what I'm talking about before a year old.


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## Katie Finlay

Christopher Smith said:


> I have never seen a puppy that could do what I'm talking about before a year old.


Yep. I started working Danni in protection at 14 months and you told me to put her away. We brought her back out at 18 months and I'm still amazed at how well she does in protection. If I hadn't have done it this way she'd never be able to work right.


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## Christopher Smith

rick smith said:


> wouldn't this be one of explaining the difference in dominance training :
> let the dog work the helper rather than the helper work the dog ?


I don't call this "dominance" training, I call it protection training. That other stuff is called The Play, Prey and Pray Method.

No the helper still has to work the dog. He still has to know how and when to put the dog in the right emotional state. And he still has to understand training well enough to mesh everything together for the IPO trial field.


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## Derek Milliken

Christopher Smith said:


> Sure you can, but then you are conditioning the dog to believe that protection is a game. That his barking,bite and counter has no real power in it. I believe that if the puppy learns that biting you, his friend, is okay and has no real effect he will also think that it has no effect on other people too.


I agree with you Chris


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## Joby Becker

I think that depends on the dog, and what else you do with him...but I can see the argument there as well.


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## Matt Vandart

Christopher Smith said:


> I have never seen a puppy that could do what I'm talking about before a year old.


Really?
Could you clarify exactly what you are talking about for me please?


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## Christopher Smith

Matt Vandart said:


> Really?
> Could you clarify exactly what you are talking about for me please?


Puppies don't are not mature enough to have aggression. Therefore they lack the the tools to take control of the helper using dominance and social aggression.


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## Matt Vandart

Oh, mine did/does, she's a little git for getting aggressive, lol.

Thanks for clarifying.


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## Christopher Smith

Matt Vandart said:


> Oh, mine did/does, she's a little git for getting aggressive, lol.
> 
> Thanks for clarifying.


Give me an example of your dog being confidently dominant and aggressive with a human. I'm curious.


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## Oscar Mora

Bob Scott said:


> Mail carriers have been doing that for dogs forever.
> Walk up to the door, rattle the mail slot and when the dog inside starts barking the mail carrier retreats. The dog starts learning how to chase the bad guy away.
> In no time at all the dog thinks it's a killer. :grin::wink:


 LOL!


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## Matt Vandart

I'll do a vid on the weekend if you like.

She's been a sharp ****er since I had her at 7 weeks especially towards dogs but people as well, it's a pain in the hoop for normal life.
One of my dobermans was even 'worse' she nailed a guy that was being aggressive civilly by the time she was 18mnths and that's without any actual man work or confidence developing. 

You want me to make a vid like, Gillians?


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## Matt Vandart

Woh there matty, I;m back peddling here, just watched Gillians vid again, nah she wouldn't have taken that level of agitation..........

Sorry to misinform, but she would however take lower level confidence building type stuff, like agitator with a rag, running away when she forwardly aggressed, don't think she would take whips and shit and that much pressure. 
That pups a belter!


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## Paul R. Konschak

The type of training that is shown in the Ithos protection video Gillian posted must be done carefully. The puppy must start with a very good nerve base. It can easily cause the dog to lose confidence if the helper does not react properly to the dog's response. The puppy must continue to want to move forward even after the helper starts to move away. The dog that just stops barking after the helper moves away and goes behind the handler or sniffs the ground is usually just happy the stress is away and does not want to enter the fight again. The puppy must feel that he is putting fear in the helper with his actions.


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## Gillian Schuler

Christopher Smith said:


> Puppies don't are not mature enough to have aggression. Therefore they lack the the tools to take control of the helper using dominance and social aggression.


 
How old in your terms is a "puppy" I've heard some of you over the pond refer to puppies at 11 months' old?


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## Gillian Schuler

Matt Vandart said:


> I'll do a vid on the weekend if you like.
> 
> She's been a sharp ****er since I had her at 7 weeks especially towards dogs but people as well, it's a pain in the hoop for normal life.
> One of my dobermans was even 'worse' she nailed a guy that was being aggressive civilly by the time she was 18mnths and that's without any actual man work or confidence developing.
> 
> You want me to make a vid like, Gillians?


Why not? I'm on your side - I think?


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## Ted Summers

I just watched the video that Gillian (sorry if I butchered that) and that decoy is very good. He never squared up on the pup and kept her/him in prey drive, likely no direct eye contact etc etc. He'd also run off after getting close with enough barking (mail man?). I, personally, don't think this is 'dominance' or 'aggression'. If the handler were to let the pup go to the decoy, it's not going to bite him. It's still a pup after all, it'd likely run and jump up on him and try and bite his pant leg for a game of tug. It's not goingto runat him in 'game on, I'mma' eat your face' mode.


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## Matt Vandart

Ted Summers said:


> I just watched the video that Gillian (sorry if I butchered that) and that decoy is very good. He never squared up on the pup and kept her/him in prey drive, likely no direct eye contact etc etc. He'd also run off after getting close with enough barking (mail man?). I, personally, *don't think this is 'dominance' or 'aggression'.* If the handler were to let the pup go to the decoy, it's not going to bite him. It's still a pup after all, it'd likely run and jump up on him and try and bite his pant leg for a game of tug. It's not going to run at him in 'game on, I'mma' eat your face' mode.


It's about building confidence to be dominant and aggressive with a man, for the pup to learn that it's actions can have an effect on the 'helper' and the outcome.
Very very few dogs come out the box being 'man stoppers' to use an old term, this is what turns a pup into one.
I had this same conversation yesterday with someone, they said to me, where's the biting? 
The biting comes later.
Dogs with this foundation become very intense when fired up, IMO.
I'm gonna watch the vid again to make sure i;m not talking shite....ahahahaha!

Edit: just watched the first vid again, prey my ass.....


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## Ted Summers

I think you're correct, and that's what I was trying to convey without getting into the whole "prey vs fight drive" argument. You're correct, this work leads to GNARLY adults when fired up. If that helper walked up and smacked that pup with the whip it'd likely yep and cower (no bueno). You do that to an adult with this foundation they'll likely make sure you won't be able to count to 10 again with both hands :mrgreen:.

at any rate, good helper and looks like a nice pup. It's giving that handler a run for her money holding on to that little land shark, at 3 moths old.


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## Christopher Smith

Gillian Schuler said:


> How old in your terms is a "puppy" I've heard some of you over the pond refer to puppies at 11 months' old?


It's not a number, it's a state of mind. But I think most working breeds start to come out of puppyhood around 12-16 months. Mind you I don't speak for all of the Americas, just myself.


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## Matt Vandart

Ted Summers said:


> I think you're correct, and that's what I was trying to convey without getting into the whole "prey vs fight drive" argument. You're correct, this work leads to GNARLY adults when fired up. If that helper walked up and smacked that pup with the whip it'd likely yep and cower (no bueno). You do that to an adult with this foundation they'll likely make sure you won't be able to count to 10 again with both hands :mrgreen:.
> 
> at any rate, good helper and looks like a nice pup. It's giving that handler a run for her money holding on to that little land shark, at 3 moths old.


coooooooooooooool


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## Christopher Smith

Matt Vandart said:


> Edit: just watched the first vid again, prey my ass.....


Is prey the only other option?


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## Christopher Smith

Ted Summers said:


> I, personally, don't think this is 'dominance' or 'aggression'. If the handler were to let the pup go to the decoy, it's not going to bite him. It's still a pup after all, it'd likely run and jump up on him and try and bite his pant leg for a game of tug.


+1


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## Matt Vandart

Christopher Smith said:


> Is prey the only other option?


Hmmm, I'm stumped, please elaborate


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## Connie Sutherland

Christopher Smith said:


> .... Mind you I don't speak for all of the Americas, just myself.



:lol:


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## Christopher Smith

Matt Vandart said:


> Hmmm, I'm stumped, please elaborate


You said that the pup in the video is working in prey. I want to know if you think there might be another reason or drive for the dog's behavior in the video?


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## Ted Summers

Christopher Smith said:


> You said that the pup in the video is working in prey. I want to know if you think there might be another reason or drive for the dog's behavior in the video?




I _think_ I originally said prey drive. A pup at 3 months old doesn't have defense or fight drive. I guess it could be food.......... ? I have to assume that the pup has worked a few times before and already associates a helper with 'playtime' and is thus lunging and barking it's head off.

you said 



Christopher Smith said:


> Puppies don't are not mature enough to have aggression. Therefore they lack the the tools to take control of the helper using dominance and social aggression.


 which I feel is pretty spot on.... so if'n it's not prey/ball drive, what would it be? (genuine question, no sarcasm) 

at 3 months old I couldn't move fast around the house with my JRT, Mali, or my DS because the little bastards would latch onto my pant legs :lol:. The dutchie has had to be counter conditioned to a broom and a mop. They move, quickly, and are thus prey, and are thus there for him to play with. Anything that moves fast he's on (and my Mali) faster than a hobo on a ham sandwich.


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## Joby Becker

might just be a terms or "usage of the word" thing, but I would not say that puppies are too young to have or show aggression.

aggression and/or "displays of aggression" can most certainly be present in even very small puppies, and can stem from various drives, conditions, reasons, whatever you want to label them...


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## Christopher Smith

Joby Becker said:


> might just be a terms or "usage of the word" thing, but I would not say that puppies are too young to have or show aggression.
> 
> aggression and/or "displays of aggression" can most certainly be present in even very small puppies, and can stem from various drives, conditions, reasons, whatever you want to label them...





Joby Becker said:


> might just be a terms or "usage of the word" thing, but I would not say that puppies are too young to have or show aggression.
> 
> aggression and/or "displays of aggression" can most certainly be present in even very small puppies, and can stem from various drives, conditions, reasons, whatever you want to label them...


Sure lots of them have defense reactions, displays and play agression. But that is not real aggression or useful in the context of this discussion. 

Here is an example of display or play aggression. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_W1NbwiCXGc&feature=youtube_gdata_player


I think that the pup in in video is simply excited. He has a guy jumping around in front of him, his handler is pumping him up and the dog is conditioned to come into a high state of arousal. I would bet the farm that the pup would lick the helper to death if given a chance. Lick drive?


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## Joby Becker

Christopher Smith said:


> Sure lots of them have defense reactions, displays and play agression. But that is not real aggression or useful in the context of this discussion.
> 
> Here is an example of display or play aggression.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_W1NbwiCXGc&feature=youtube_gdata_player


what is REAL aggression?


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## Christopher Smith

Joby Becker said:


> what is REAL aggression?


 
There are a lot of different kinds of real aggression. But what that puppy is doing is not it. Nor is that vacuum cleaner dog.


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## Joby Becker

Christopher Smith said:


> There are a lot of different kinds of real aggression. But what that puppy is doing is not it. Nor is that vacuum cleaner dog.


gotcha...

I was curious, because I have had 2 different doberman people tell me that KNPV and NVBK dogs are all prey and lack REAL aggression, and when I asked them what they meant, they showed me foreign IPO vids of dobermans barking and snarling in the blind, and said that was real aggression, and when I showed them the following video, they said the video proved their point, 100% prey, no real aggression in the dog. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5I9vgOx9xFM


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## Christopher Smith

Joby Becker said:


> gotcha...
> 
> I was curious, because I have had 2 different doberman people tell me that KNPV and NVBK dogs are all prey and lack REAL aggression, and when I asked them what they meant, they showed me foreign IPO vids of dobermans barking and snarling in the blind, and said that was real aggression, and when I showed them the following video, they said the video proved their point, 100% prey, no real aggression in the dog.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5I9vgOx9xFM


That dog is a beast! Very nice.

All that snarling and BS is the opposite of what I'm talking about. Good dogs don't do that because they are secure and want to fight you, not scare you away.

You done goofed when you started talking to Doberman people about working dogs.


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## jim stevens

Bob Scott said:


> Mail carriers have been doing that for dogs forever.
> Walk up to the door, rattle the mail slot and when the dog inside starts barking the mail carrier retreats. The dog starts learning how to chase the bad guy away.
> In no time at all the dog thinks it's a killer. :grin::wink:


There is truth in this. My dog's dominance training is the UPS and FEDEX men delivering ammo, I was home on a rare day off when a FEDEX delivery came, I opened the door, she lunged forward, and the driver was running for his truck. It does convince a dog that they are a badass.


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## Bob Scott

"It does convince a dog that they are a badass". 

6,000 mail carriers a year will back up that comment! :lol:


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## Michael Joubert

Define fight drive. I've seen young pups of the bulldog persuasion display fight (as would be appropriate for a pup), or what I would at least identify as fight.


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## Matt Vandart

Joby Becker said:


> what is REAL aggression?


This is the question that requires answering I would say.

If we are talking about aggression against things other than humans, then i would say puppies can definitely display and even carry out 'real aggression'
I know I bang on about bull terriers all the time but it is where my experience and interest really lies.

My friend who breeds bullys, her litters have to be supervised 24hrs a day because they will rip chunks out of each other if left to their own devices. Obviously this is not restricted to that breed. Becca has a chunk out of her ear where another pup has taken it out (I wouldn't mind betting it was tilly by the way) she came this way.

Now if we move onto bigger things, Sali has been aggressive since I had her. Not out of control unstable aggression but directed aggression to a threat. At 12 weeks old when she had just started going out and about we met a dude with a cattle dog. We walked up to the dude and his dog and Sali came in a bit strongly, all puppy play mode and this dog snapped at her, before I could do anything she was hanging off this dogs nose. This was highly embarrassing and pretty bad tbh because I live in a small town and she soon got herself a reputation for being a 'bad' dog. amongst the other dog people excepting the farmers.
Another time we were outside 'pets at home' and a dude came out with a JR that was just staring at her from about 6ft away and she kicked off, to the point where she redirected at my hand.
Now I am aware that dog aggression and human aggression are two different things but both are 'aggressive states'.
They are however both social aggression.
Sali's dog aggression comes out of dominance, she gets 'put out' if a dog doesn't respect her authoritah.

Now if we move onto people, she has been a handfull with them as well. When I recognized that there was a social problem with her I started taking her for a walk and end our walk with sitting on a bench with her in the square in the middle of town. She would decide for herself that everyone that came along needed barking at, not out of fear, maybe out of prey, but in my opinion it was coming from her sharpness and natural suspicion. Mostly if someone just stopped a distance away and looked at her saying 'ooh what a pretty pup' at which point she would start up barking, I think it was the non movement and staring that would piss her off.
Luckily most of them laughed and said 'you've got your work cut out there' because she was such a small and fluffy pup I spose.
I always take my pups out on a long line so, like others have said, I thought I would let her out on her line towards these people she was barking at so she would get close and shut up and turn submissive, but this did not happen she would go right up to within inches and still be forwardly aggressive, ears forward, tail up and really going for it.
One woman even bent right over her one day and was staring at her while she was just sitting next to me while me and my missus were talking to some random that came up and talked to us about her agility classes and how she would come. Sali jumped and went for her face, I just caught her before it was cattle dog scene but with a human, that's when the prong collar went on.
I have never in my whole life put a prong collar on a puppy (she was about 4mnths old) but this pup really is a handfull, for me anyway. 
Otherwise she was perfectly social mostly neutral to other people/dogs she just doesn't like people/dogs all up in her grill.
She will let people stroke her and take food from them as long as they don't do anything she views as threatening.
It's a pain in the ass for me I need very social dogs because of all the kids that come over my house to play with my kids.

At first I thought it was fear aggression but after consultation with people more experienced than me in this kind of shit, I am fairly convinced it is not, she doesn't really show any other fear reactions to anything.
By the way I am not being all 'my dog is a bad ass' here, it's a problem for me, I have been extensively attempting at socializing this all out of her and I can let her run with other dogs without the fear of her biting them, she will still go for a dog if it snaps at her but now she has bite inhibition she soon learned from trying to dominate Tilly and Luna, she will get the dog on it's back and pin it and growl, luckily the group I found to walk and socialize her with are very understanding and mostly laugh it off because she is still clearly a pup. She is rapidly getting bigger and I can't have that shit going on for much longer.
Any hints and advices are gladly accepted here by the way, as I have not had a pup as mental as Sali since my last doberman was a pup 13 years ago and I think back then I mostly physically corrected it out of her. Can't do this with Sali prong pops just fire her up more.


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## Christopher Smith

That was a lot of words. Most of which has nothing to do with what the subject of this thread. Dog aggression has nothing to do with what we are talking about here. This is about training IPO dogs and my comments are about that.


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## Matt Vandart

Christopher Smith said:


> That was a lot of words. Most of which has nothing to do with what the subject of this thread. Dog aggression has nothing to do with what we are talking about here. This is about training IPO dogs and my comments are about that.


Did you read it or not? more than half was not about dog aggression and I even said I am aware dog aggression and human aggression are different things, however both can and do involve 'domainance'
Dominate:
To exercise power or control through force or superiority.

You were talking about whether puppies are capable of real aggression.
I answered. 
You did not specifically say are puppies capable of 'real aggression in IPO' They don't give a **** about rules, or whether they are on the IPO field or not, they are puppies they don't know the rules yet, they learn *when* to use aggression stuff through training. 
In the meantime they express aggression naturally, be it at humans, dogs, cats, delivery men, scarecrows and in fact vaccuum cleaners.
Last time I was at a club they didn't have vacuum cleaners or fed ex delivery men either.

Here's a plan Chris, you tell us what 'real aggression' is because so far you havn't done so. Neither have you answered the above question posed by yourself:

"Is prey the only other option?"


After I had said "Edit: just watched the first vid again, prey my ass....."

Yes there were aspects of prey movement in that video but equally there was aggressive threat from the helper also. The movement away from the dog is not to elicit 'prey' out of the pup but to give it a win.
I'll try again:


> It's about building confidence to be dominant and aggressive with a man, for the pup to learn that it's actions can have an effect on the 'helper' and the outcome.
> Very very few dogs come out the box being 'man stoppers' to use an old term, this is what turns a pup into one.


In fact you have mosty just asked questions and added very little information to the thread at all.

for instance:



> There are a lot of different kinds of real aggression. But what that puppy is doing is not it. Nor is that vacuum cleaner dog.


Awesome answer which added fark all to the conversation.


So again, I ask as Joby did, what is 'real aggression'.

This:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5I9vgOx9xFM

Could well be very intense prey behavior, I don't know how the dog was trained.

This dog at 34 secs on (doberman) is showing dominance aggression which comes from fight (defense) drive. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p1LpXmUObYs

Everyone is talking shit anyway because dogs move back and forth between prey and defense fluidly when 'fighting' and any hold/kill comes purely out of prey drives, they are prey behaviors.

Things like deep bites and calm bites and whatever have little or nothing to do with dominance, which is actually what the OP was about.
A dog can dominate a human without ever biting, all that is required is forward aggression, which can in fact involve snarling and growling and all that bullshit.

Forward aggression can come out of fear as well as 'dominance' or just being aggressive in response to a threat, because that aggressive response neutralized the 'threat' last time.


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## Ted Summers

Joby Becker said:


> gotcha...
> 
> I was curious, because I have had 2 different doberman people tell me that KNPV and NVBK dogs are all prey and lack REAL aggression, and when I asked them what they meant, they showed me foreign IPO vids of dobermans barking and snarling in the blind, and said that was real aggression, and when I showed them the following video, they said the video proved their point, 100% prey, no real aggression in the dog.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5I9vgOx9xFM



wait, what?










*THAT* is not real aggression? Dafuq is then?  I agree with that above comment about the snarling and barking being BS. Ever since the SV judges started using the word 'intensity' a few years back in their critiques trainers are teaching/forcing/asking the dogs to come into the blind spitting venom at mach 10. Nevermind that the dog is more worried about making noise than being precise in bitework.... at least they're loud.


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## Christopher Smith

Matt Vandart said:


> This:
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5I9vgOx9xFM
> 
> Could well be very intense prey behavior, I don't know how the dog was trained.
> 
> This dog at 34 secs on (doberman) is showing dominance aggression which comes from fight (defense) drive.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p1LpXmUObYs
> 
> Everyone is talking shit anyway because dogs move back and forth between prey and defense fluidly when 'fighting' and any hold/kill comes purely out of prey drives, they are prey behaviors.


Ok Matt, you and I obviously see dogs and their behaviors very differently. You win the internets though. Good talk.


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## Matt Vandart

Lol win the internets?


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## Christopher Smith

Ted Summers said:


> wait, what?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *THAT* is not real aggression? Dafuq is then?  I agree with that above comment about the snarling and barking being BS.


 Ted, let it go. We all went through a time when we believed the same thing Matt does. It's part of the learning process. 

Eventually most of us end up at the same place. Over the years I have been lucky enough to meet some of the best working dog people in world. And in talking to them I discovered that they are all looking for almost the same dog. It doesn't matter if it was military, IPO, police or ring...the same dog. They might train them differently but they are all looking for the same raw product. 

Matt seems like a smart guy. Give him time.


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## Matt Vandart

Thank you for that comment Chris.

By the way I should have said more correctly about the dog in Joby's vid "that it could be seen as prey behavior but I would need to know the dogs training to pass opinion"

As for the rest of that comment ^^ please enlighten me I am always up for a bit of learning and never afraid to concede to valid information, opinion or argument, in short I will hapliy admit I am wrong if you can show me how.
I genuinely am interested in what you have to say of 'real aggression'


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## Nicole Stark

This is interesting dialogue.


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## Christopher Smith

Matt Vandart said:


> Thank you for that comment Chris.
> 
> By the way I should have said more correctly about the dog in Joby's vid "that it could be seen as prey behavior but I would need to know the dogs training to pass opinion"
> 
> As for the rest of that comment ^^ please enlighten me I am always up for a bit of learning and never afraid to concede to valid information, opinion or argument, in short I will hapliy admit I am wrong if you can show me how.
> I genuinely am interested in what you have to say of 'real aggression'


I don't know how to explain it better without writing an entire book. And even then I'm not sure that it would be in a language we both understand.


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## Matt Vandart

Ok cool, could you please highlight to me in where in this thread you have actually described 'real aggression' because I am obviously missing something, trees and the woods and all that.

Copy and paste or quote will be fine.

Thanks!


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## Joby Becker

this is getting way off topic, but I use that doberman muzzle video to show people what I do not want to see if muzzle work is taken to the ground. The dog is simply guarding, laying on top of someone, growling at them, is not showing good fighting behaviors in my opinion.


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## Matt Vandart

In terms of fighting behaviors, the dog is at a real disadvantage by the muzzle to show it's proper fighting behavior IMO.
If that muzzle wasn't on it may have been a different picture when the dude gets up and the dog reengages. It all goes a bit tits up at 1:03, but again I think the dog is just doing what it can without it's teeth, this is why muzzle tests are a bit shit, also IMO, they cannot use their primary weapon.

I think it is a fairly good example of real aggression against a human though.


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## Christopher Smith

Christopher Smith said:


> Give me an example of your dog being confidently dominant and aggressive with a human. I'm curious.


This the only type of aggression that is usable for a dog working a human. That bullshit in the video is worthless at best and dangerous at worst. Those dogs are not confident and wanting to dominate. Why do you think the leash is on that dog in the muzzle video? You have no idea!


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## Christopher Smith

And if you think that shit on video was good maybe you should ask them why they only start protection training on dogs over 12 months old. Send them an email then post the reply. 

http://www.guarddogtraining.com.au/html/faq.html


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## Matt Vandart

Please more detail, some observations would be nice, thanks.

and by the way at what point did I say that dog was being confidently dominant?
I said:



> This dog at 34 secs on (doberman) is showing dominance aggression which comes from fight (defense) drive.


and



> I think it is a fairly good example of real aggression against a human though.


Or are you saying the dog is not showing aggression to that human or even that it is fear aggression or prey drive?
Or is it just an exercise in OB?


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## Chip Blasiole

This sounds very confusing. True dominance and high prey drive are genetically determined. You cannot create a genetically dominant dog by "dominance training." You can build a dog's confidence, prey drive, defense, etc, by teaching the dog via positive reinforcement that it wins by displaying the appropriate behavior. That will not create a dog who is genetically dominant.


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## Joby Becker

well there is also the behavior of physically dominating..which to me anyhow, has to involve physical force. a dog does not necessarily have to be genetically dominant in the pack theory hierarchy to be taught to try to dominate a person in training, trial, or fighting or whatever, but it sure doesnt hurt if they are more dominant, as that in my experience does express itself in the work.

which brings us full circle here, that the techniques are building confidence, and that the dog are not dominating the mailman, but gaining confidence due to them thinking they are scaring him off, similarly how some protection techniques work.


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## Ben Thompson

I just made sure the trainer knew WTF they were doing so we don't ruin a perfectly good dog. Personally I don't like waiting... I started my dogs bite work at ten weeks. He bit a t shirt attached to a flirt pole. All fun and games when they are that young. Just like kids karate its gotta be fun for them above all else. None of that muai thai... breaking boards with your skull shit when they are that young.... that comes later.


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## Michael Murphy

refer to my post on the general section


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## Christopher Smith

Ben Thompson said:


> Personally I don't like waiting... I started my dogs bite work at ten weeks.


Have you ever waited? How many dogs have you titled in IPO that you started at 10 weeks?


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## Christopher Smith

Chip Blasiole said:


> This sounds very confusing. True dominance and high prey drive are genetically determined. You cannot create a genetically dominant dog by "dominance training."


Really? Are you serious? You can't change the dogs genetics with training? Do you think you can train the behavior with training?


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## Matt Vandart

Chris are you talking about Fight and Gameness?


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## Gillian Schuler

Ted Summers said:


> I just watched the video that Gillian (sorry if I butchered that) and that decoy is very good. He never squared up on the pup and kept her/him in prey drive, likely no direct eye contact etc etc. He'd also run off after getting close with enough barking (mail man?). I, personally, don't think this is 'dominance' or 'aggression'. If the handler were to let the pup go to the decoy, it's not going to bite him. It's still a pup after all, it'd likely run and jump up on him and try and bite his pant leg for a game of tug. It's not goingto runat him in 'game on, I'mma' eat your face' mode.


 
I'm in agreement but that the pup should *show* dominance is not the issue here. The thread is titled "dominance training" and that's just what it is.

With a good decoy like the one in the video, one can train a pup to "think" he's just sent off a bad guy. With training the pup / young dog will learn that he can dominate a helper without biting.


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## Gillian Schuler

BTW, over here (Europe) a puppy = Welpe is from birth to about 7 months' old. After that it is referred to a as young dog - more or less.

There are some pet people who have puppies until they are 12 months and over [-o<


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## Matt Vandart

Hey Gillian I have tried explaining this already, sorry if I sent your thread off on a tangent


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## Christopher Smith

Gillian Schuler said:


> BTW, over here (Europe) a puppy = Welpe is from birth to about 7 months' old. After that it is referred to a as young dog - more or less.


What are the ages of the puppy classes for your kennel club?


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## Christopher Smith

Gillian Schuler said:


> I'm in agreement but that the pup should *show* dominance is not the issue here. The thread is titled "dominance training" and that's just what it is.
> 
> With a good decoy like the one in the video, one can train a pup to "think" he's just sent off a bad guy. With training the pup / young dog will learn that he can dominate a helper without biting.


If you already know about this training why did you start the thread?


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## Matt Vandart

Seriously?


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## Nicole Stark

Christopher Smith said:


> If you already know about this training why did you start the thread?


Perhaps to develop it into illustrative thought?


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## Matt Vandart

Which is I thought what occurred 

Chris, I think I understand what you have been saying by the way, could you please outline "real aggression' in the context of human being with reference to sport and/or real life bitework, detailing dog body language/emitted behavior before, during and after the bite.
If I have a hole in my knowledge I really want to fill it and would very much appreciate it.

Alternatively if anyone would like to move this to it's own thread, then that could be good, if they or Gillian, feels it is not pertinent to the original post. Or that it deserves it's own thread discussion.
Thanks


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## Gillian Schuler

Christopher Smith said:


> If you already know about this training why did you start the thread?


Pardon me?


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## Gillian Schuler

Christopher Smith said:


> What are the ages of the puppy classes for your kennel club?


Puppy classes are from 8 weeks to 4-5 months (give and take a bit). 

Afterwards comes young dog classes.

However, this is becoming a real money bank for many private people. Collect the money, stand in the middle of the patch and watch how the dear little monsters tear rips out of the shy babies.

Either the monster become stronger or the shy baby becomes a doornat.


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## Gillian Schuler

Joby Becker said:


> well there is also the behavior of physically dominating..which to me anyhow, has to involve physical force. a dog does not necessarily have to be genetically dominant in the pack theory hierarchy to be taught to try to dominate a person in training, trial, or fighting or whatever, but it sure doesnt hurt if they are more dominant, as that in my experience does express itself in the work.
> 
> which brings us full circle here, that the techniques are building confidence, and that the dog are not dominating the mailman, but gaining confidence due to them thinking they are scaring him off, similarly how some protection techniques work.


Not bad thinking=D>


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## Erik Berg

Letting the dog scare away or "dominating" the helper in regards to age and mental capacity is pretty standard training, what´s new about that? I guess the question is if there is some kind of benefit starting early with this, I don´t know, is it really?

Regarding the BR malinois that was posted, I didn´t see any behaviour I would call aggression, intensity yes, but not aggression. This is more fightingdrive for me, a dog that enjoys to bite and struggle but without having a serious or aggresive intention, even if there may be a thin line when a more playfull behaviour escalates into a more serious behaviour. If we should talk about aggression I think there must be a more serious mindset in the dog, and then it´s also quite easy to see.

This is easy to see the dog are showing some aggression,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d7GzsgcKqbM

Another clear example, the dog gets more serious as the "treath" comes closer,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sI30UHWbtuE

Another dog doing what the topic is about, not a puppy but quite normal training, but I guess it also could be sportspecific or what the goal is with the dog and how the handler want it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=76sMUoSGghw


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## Gillian Schuler

Eric

we used to do this n the 1990's and probably before. I agree it is nothing new.

However, I see the difference between the pup getting a bite and the pup that learns that the decoy will retreat.


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## Gillian Schuler

Why would the pup show aggression. Is not the fact that it sees the decoy flee, reward? The aggression comes later when the pup realises that being able to send the decoy away is a good thing.

Quote
Regarding the BR malinois that was posted, I didn´t see any behaviour I would call aggression, intensity yes, but not aggression. This is more fightingdrive for me, a dog that enjoys to bite and struggle but without having a serious or aggresive intention, even if there may be a thin line when a more playfull behaviour escalates into a more serious behaviour. If we should talk about aggression I think there must be a more serious mindset in the dog, and then it´s also quite easy to see.

Unquote


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## Erik Berg

I was thinking of the malinois joby posted, not the pup.


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## Christopher Smith

Gillian Schuler said:


> Puppy classes are from 8 weeks to 4-5 months (give and take a bit).


No it's not a give or take number it's and absolute number. And the puppy classes in your country and every other country FCI country end at 9 months.


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## Gillian Schuler

Don't be daft - how the effing hell could you possibly know how clubs in Europe run their puppy classes?

In Switzerland our puppy classes "Welpenerziehungsklassen" start at *minimum *8 weeks until about 4-5 months, depends on size and breed of pup.

The follow up classes are for "young dogs" from the above age until about 9 months.

I should know, I ran many of them in dog clubs and dog institutions.

The clubs have full authority to run their puppy and young dog classes as they see fit. No FCI butting in here.


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## Christopher Smith

Gillian Schuler said:


> Don't be daft - how the effing hell could you possibly know how clubs in Europe run their puppy classes?


I probably know it the same way you know what we do over here "acrosss the pond".


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## Gillian Schuler

No, you don't get away that easily, babe. That's not an answer. It just shows me you now B-all about it.

I know nothing about puppy and dog classes over the pond and I would never deem to comment on it as you do about the European setup.


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## Joby Becker

puppy classification in FCI ends at 9 months.


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## Bob Scott

When I taught puppy classes, adult ob classes and competition classes the puppy classes were 8-12 wks, 12-16 wks and at 6 months the dogs were ready for adult ob classes. 
When I attended my very first ob class in the early to mid 60s the dog's weren't allowed to attend until 12 months old. You would crush a puppy back then with the methods used.


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## Gillian Schuler

Joby Becker said:


> puppy classification in FCI ends at 9 months.


 
It's ridiculous really when you think about it- at 9 months my GSD was biting so hard he needed an adult sleeve.

At 9 months a JRT is very often down in lthe foxhole giving Mr. Renard his dues!!

I cannot understand this FCI "when is a puppy - when is he not".

The smaller breeds are almost adult - the larger ones on the verge of young dogs.


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## Katie Finlay

Gillian Schuler said:


> It's ridiculous really when you think about it- at 9 months my GSD was biting so hard he needed an adult sleeve.
> 
> At 9 months a JRT is very often down in lthe foxhole giving Mr. Renard his dues!!
> 
> I cannot understand this FCI "when is a puppy - when is he not".
> 
> The smaller breeds are almost adult - the larger ones on the verge of young dogs.


Every dog I've seen worked seriously at 9 months was broken by the time it was 4 or 5 years old.

My dog is 3 and if I worked her at 9 months how I worked her at 18 months she would have never made it.


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## Chip Blasiole

Chris,
Yes I am serious about traits like prey drive and dominance being genetically determined. Now certainly, you can use training the shape and build a variety of behaviors. That is the whole point of training. That would include building prey drive and confidence. To me, their is a difference in genetically determined traits. It's is kind of like taking a talented basketball player who is very athletic and determined and works hard at improving his skills. But it is highly unlikely that he will be able to fly from the foul line and dunk it like Michael Jordan or have the moves of Dr. J. Same thing with some of those little 5'7'' guys in the NBA who can dunk it. I realize I'm getting away from training dogs, but you should get my point.


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## Christopher Smith

Chip Blasiole said:


> Chris,
> Yes I am serious about traits like prey drive and dominance being genetically determined. Now certainly, you can use training the shape and build a variety of behaviors. That is the whole point of training. That would include building prey drive and confidence. To me, their is a difference in genetically determined traits. It's is kind of like taking a talented basketball player who is very athletic and determined and works hard at improving his skills. But it is highly unlikely that he will be able to fly from the foul line and dunk it like Michael Jordan or have the moves of Dr. J. Same thing with some of those little 5'7'' guys in the NBA who can dunk it. I realize I'm getting away from training dogs, but you should get my point.


I get you point and agree for the most part. But I don't know what this was in reference to.


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