# Back Tying for Working on Grips



## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

So somewhere in the 3 years I didn't do much formally with my dog, I think I accidentally made my dog's grip chewy. :???: It's still full as it ever was, but probably due to all the ball we played and he just got into a self-satisfying habit of being chewy when carrying softer stuff like balls, rubber discs, etc over several years. Didn't bother me much earlier, but now that we're doing bitework, I've had several decoys comment that he needs work on an intermediate to hard sleeve and back tie to discourage the chewiness so his grip doesn't suffer on the suit. I've been using the Michael Ellis training the retrieve DVD and have him hold a PVC pipe calmly and I think it's helped a bit. However, I was wondering if anyone's got video of working a dog's grips on the back tie to discourage chewiness so I can visualize what's involved. Didn't turn up much on YouTube. I also don't have video of my dog doing it as my camera is almost broken at the moment. Thanks in advance...


----------



## Esther Chai (Feb 18, 2009)

I found this video which might help. Although not shown in the video, I have seen young dogs being taught countering to strengthen grips whilst on the backtie.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ot3YJ8upKy4


----------



## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

Chewing a ball does not necessarily equate to a chewy grip during bite work, mostly it is genetic. Sometimes a leather sleeve is used to improve grip as the dog slides off the sleeve if grip is less than optimum, after coming off/losing the sleeve some dogs begin to clamp down harder and stay clamped.


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

When the dog gets a full grip on the suit, does it have its mouth on the body parts in the suit? or just a mouthful of suit? that MAY be something to think about as well. Dog might be trying to get to the man in there, or might just be chewy ...LOL..

I might try him on a real tight fitting suit or an exposed hidden sleeve, where he gets a nice mouthful of meat and see if he is still "chewy". Might give you more info.

something else to think about, outside the box.

unless this is chewiness on the sleeve, without much suit work then disregard everything I just said.


----------



## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Tension ...= no chewy. As simple as that. 

You don't always need to be back tied. Just always on a harness during training and the handler applies the back pressure. Or else a bungee and the decoy works the tension.


----------



## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Not sure, Joby. He chews less on a hard sleeve than an intermediate arm sleeve or Belgian/jambierre used as an arm sleeve or the suit. From what I can tell, he's usually 3/4 to full on the initial bite, but it's like he sometimes relaxes for a fraction of a sec at some point or shifts it in his mouth after the strike and the object can slip at least partially if pulled at the right moment. Does the same thing holding almost anything holding just a tug or other object, like he juggles it in his mouth maybe more than actually being "chewy." Once someone really tugs hard on him, he gets a little less "lazy" maybe? I've also been recommended to have a line on the item (extra large tug or sleeve) and run with the decoy/helper while he pulls it to reinforce that he needs to hold it firmly.

Edit: Here are some stills, so yeah, he grips pretty full. Just not getting why he's shifting.


----------



## Adam Rawlings (Feb 27, 2009)

Back tying or posting the dog works. You could also go back to the leather rag and work the grip from the begining. The key on the back tie is a lot of tension on what ever the dogs biting. If it gets chewy the helper need to pull the tug, rag or whatever from the dog, tease him up and leave. The helper then comes back and starts the game again. Reward a calm grip (slip the reward) and end the session don't keep working. Don't tug with the dog while it's off leash, because if the tug is pulled away the dog still can chase and engage again. 

Things will get better if it's a training issue, if it's nerves you may never fix the grip.


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

If the decoys you work with have told you to use backtie, then use it. If dog works better on hard sleeve then you are probably ahead of the game, some dogs with grip problems have worse grips on harder sleeves.

back pressure is your friend. Especially if it is the item shifting around or slipping back. Could be leash or backtie.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QXLvvW6mKfs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tQT6OQi0nxM&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BxW7mHSf_g0&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/user/troys#p/a/u/4/5FlgBKopWHw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xHneiCa-GO0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Wx_ZftJ0eE


Some other things might be dog is looking for more fight than he is getting, or he knows he is not biting the man...
another thing to see would be to have decoy put hand on the dogs chin, or muzzle or something else that shows a little challenge for the object and see what happens..

I have different issues probably, nothing is slipping away
This dog will chew on a suit if there is not a lot of fight if suit is real loose or big, or if decoy is trying to hide from her. and even this Euro Joe sleeve, unless the bite goes over the arm. If there is backpressure or guy is working her hard enough to keep her busy then it is not as much of an issue, if it is calmer, the dog is always trying to fill the mouth and find the meat..which looks like a chew..I would rather have that personally than a dog that gets a mouthful of suit and starts pulling on it.


----------



## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Adam Rawlings said:


> Back tying or posting the dog works. You could also go back to the leather rag and work the grip from the begining. The key on the back tie is a lot of tension on what ever the dogs biting. If it gets chewy the helper need to pull the tug, rag or whatever from the dog, tease him up and leave. The helper then comes back and starts the game again. Reward a calm grip (slip the reward) and end the session don't keep working. Don't tug with the dog while it's off leash, because if the tug is pulled away the dog still can chase and engage again.
> 
> Things will get better if it's a training issue, if it's nerves you may never fix the grip.


I think the back tie will be more consistent than me posting him and it's easier for the decoy to gauge distance. Yeah, he's the sort of dog who does best with 2-3 short sessions rather than one longer session. It's just difficult to work in, even though we have a smallish club that allows a little more time per dog. About half a dozen decoys have worked him before and no one has said that they believe it to be a nerve thing. He's already holding objects more calmly with using the Michael Ellis method, so I'm thinking it's likely a training thing we need to work through through some mileage. I think I've allowed him to be lazy and juggle or chew an object in his mouth for 3 years, so it will take some patience to fix. I'm also just hoping it's not somehow a dental thing. With my luck though... :-\"


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> I'm also just hoping it's not somehow a dental thing. With my luck though... :-\"


If it was a dental thing it seems to me it would be worse with hard sleeve..

Disclaimer: NO MEDICAL TRAINING HERE.


----------



## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Thanks for the list of videos, Joby. The Dean Calderon video with the Dobe on the table did make me think of something. He does not know how to breath well through his nose either in bitework or swimming with a retrieved object like in dock diving as you can hear him snorting. I wonder if he shifts some of the time because he cannot get as much as air as he likes. Probably not 100% sure of the reason, but might be part of it. Thanks for the ideas, everyone. Good training discussion! 

Edit: Yeah, the dental thing came to mind because one of our other club dogs had an issue during bitework this last weekend that may or may not be dental related. So it's been on my mind...


----------



## Pete Stevens (Dec 16, 2010)

Chewy bites or type writer biting can also be a sign of a confidence issue. For a some dogs, we'll let them take the decoy all the way down flat and let them drag the decoy. The taking of a large prey to the ground can really boost their confidence. If the dog resets the bite, more suit is thrust into his mouth and the decoy cries out when the bite That's just the cliff notes version. 

I do like to use bungee lines too. This method seems to work faster than the one above. The decoy gives the dog a grip on the suit, sleeve, tug, whatever you're using and puts tension on the line. When the dog lets go...they get pulled back quickly. Sometimes ass over tea kettle, so the decoy has to give them another grip quickly. Wash, rinse, repeat. I'm also a big supporter of the decoy helping calm the grip. Its training afterall so why not do what it takes.

Plus there is always the chance of something medical....teeth, nerves in the neck or jaw.


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

If the dog does not breath though nose well, the dog will not be able to have full mouth for very long....it may or may not be part of chewing, but will affect fullness.

This is old video of my dog, this is the kind of chewing I get on a suit that has too much material. It probably is a little different than what you are talking about. It has been posted before but does apply to this...It is more of a pulse than chew. Does this on belgian sleeve if sleeve slips off of the arm or with large suits, still pulses on hidden sleeves and sleeves but does not back off (open mouth as much) the grip as much..back pressure does stop it, as does more action.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4dEcIif5q8E

This is good example of dog breathing 100% through the nose though...her mouth is stuffed.

I did a lot of long bites, many many over 5 minutes, to get dog more calm..

It was not possible to do at first. She did have problems breathing through her nose. I actually worked on it. Stuffed her mouth with big tugs and did opposition (pushed it into her mouth) and would blow into her nose..it clicked for her after a few times...also ran her with LARGE tug on a bike. It did work for this dog.


----------



## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

I may have to get some video shot in a similar manner next training session. I dropped my camera a while back so it's no longer focusing properly, but I took a quick video tonight. He is holding the PVC pipe much calmer than when we started. Hopefully this will also help in the bitework just getting into the mind set of holding things calmly. He used to just juggle it around in his mouth.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oubc7dcWzaE

I may also try the jogging with a tug in his mouth thing soon before it gets real warm again. Might as well train for the AD at some point... ;-)


----------



## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

So we worked him a bit on the back tie yesterday and I could notice a few more things since I didn't have to hold the leash. He was the first dog to get worked, so I totally forgot to pull my camera out, sorry.  Anyways, here's what I saw. When he'd make the initial strike, we'd get a little bit of thrashing, a little bit of vocalizing, then try to wrap his legs around the decoy (pretty typical for him) but then he'd settle into the routine pretty quickly and did fine as long as there was some action. Once the decoy freezes up in preparation for the out, he starts to shift and want to chew and then as I tell him to out and down, he holds onto it a second or two longer, jaws vibrating slightly and lets go. He's on a thick slip collar and a tab to pull him off if he chooses not to (his outs still need cleaning up a bit, but it's not our main focus at the moment), which happens about 50% of the time.

Apologies again for lack of video, but any thoughts (besides the fact he just needs more mileage)? My thoughts are the anticipation for the out is a source of conflict as he's got a high level of possession, which is why the shifting is worse when he knows we're about to out, even though we typically do quite a few reward bites for outing. He does this on sleeve, suit, tug, whatever with either playing with me or the decoy.


----------



## Adam Rawlings (Feb 27, 2009)

You could try giving him the out command while the decoy is still active and the decoy should freeze once the command is given.


----------



## Pete Stevens (Dec 16, 2010)

I like Adams idea and maybe you can get some good results. Might be time to break it down and rebuild. I like to do a positive out which helps with the anticipating of the out because the release is a good thing. It takes a little time to work on but I like the results. Clean outs, no vocalization, no dancing away from the handler as they approach, and happy recalls.


----------



## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

I hear table training helps cos of the slippery surface, the dog has to grip better.


----------



## Tim Connell (Apr 17, 2010)

Possibility: especially if this is a Mal 

One thing I worked for a little while was to give my dog a couple of long prey bites at the beginning of the bitework session, so he could get his ya-yas out, and clear his mind a little. It seemed that if I did this, he would be more receptive to clarity, and would "think" a little more, and not be quite so amped. Letting him unload a little before expecting to teach or refine a new behavior helped in this circumstance, with my dog.

Sounds like you are already rewarding the out with a quick re-bite. Maybe a clean out off one reward (tug) for a greater reward (decoy) is something that will work later on as well.

I do a lot of obedience for bites, to reward for calm, focused, obedient behavior. This has worked nicely with my particular dog.


----------



## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

If it's conflict caused by anticipating the out, have your decoy start throwing in momentary pauses while working him, then go right back into working. If he's only outed every 5th 6th 8th etc (ie keep it random) time the decoy slows down or pauses, he will stop thinking there is an out coming every time.


----------

