# Breeding and age



## nicolas ponce de leon (Jun 1, 2013)

I just received my copy of "An Introduction to the Royal Dutch Police Dog KNPV Training Program" actually followed link from this forum announcing it's re-issue. 

Inside the book in the section n breeding it is stated that certain breeders believe that dog's ability to reproduce himself is diminished after 7 years of age and that after that time the female's traits will dominate the breeding or be more expressed. 

I still see a lot of dogs up for stud who are beyond the age of 7. Famous dogs, who are known for throwing great and eventually accomplished pups with some frequency. 

Do dogs just continue to be bred past their primes to cash in on the hype of a name or a bloodline or is it that certain dogs are just so exceptional they continue to throw good dogs way into their later years?

What is the cut-off point? Is there a rule of thumb for this sort of thing? 

I am really interested to hear what people think about this.


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## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

I'd be inclined to say genetics are genetics and don't change with age. However, sperm count and viability do. And math being so infallible, you could prove an older male with lesser quality and quantity of sperm would produce himself less simply because litters would tend to be smaller or not take. Mutation rates increase with age, so you could expect an increased rate of issues there, just as in humans


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## nicolas ponce de leon (Jun 1, 2013)

Thanks for the reply. That makes a lot of sense. Is it the sperm itself or the DNA that mutates over time? It would seem that if it were the sperm, (curled tails or whatever) one could avoid issues by using artificial insemination. 

The reason I even bring this up is that a large number of the stud dogs you see being advertised out of Holland are 10+ years old. 

I am sure a lot of them still trade on name or bloodline alone, but are they really still reliable at that age?


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

I've been trying to find the article I read on this subject. I *think* it was a link through this forum but I can't seem to find it again. Grrrrr.

According to the article, if my memory serves correctly, is that the cells and such (DNA, egg quality, sperm quality, etc) do break down over time. That the quality of the product is lesser than it would be if you were generating it from a younger bitch and stud. The implication was that the best stock was thrown off during the animal's younger years when mutations, etc would be at their lowest point. But this didn't mean that you still couldn't end up with a quality product but the "best" products occurred during the earlier reproductive life.


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## Nick Hrycaj (Mar 30, 2014)

Nicolas, sorry to get off track, tried to message you but couldn't. What's your thoughts on the book generally? Worth the money?


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## nicolas ponce de leon (Jun 1, 2013)

Nick Hrycaj said:


> Nicolas, sorry to get off track, tried to message you but couldn't. What's your thoughts on the book generally? Worth the money?


It is more instructional / informational, than anything else. 

By that I mean that it is very straight forward in it's descriptions of aspects of the training program outside the realm of actual exercises, how they should be performed and how they are scored. 

It is cool because it is by far the most in depth look at the program I have yet seen and makes it more accessible when you see it broken down like that. 

I am will most likely never bring a dog through this set of exercises, being a US citizen. So for me its value is mostly in being able to gain a deeper understanding of the program when I look at videos, maybe visit Holland and have the good fortune to see the trials 1st hand, and perhaps purchase a dog. 

It's a good book in my opinion if you geek out on this sort of thing, though I do thing part of the price tag is related in a large part to the obscurity of the information. 

Scarcity = Value 

Sorry for the ramble. I guess only worth it if you are _really_ into these dogs.


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## Nick Hrycaj (Mar 30, 2014)

Sounds like a reasonable review. Thanks for doing that


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

nicolas ponce de leon said:


> Inside the book in the section n breeding it is stated that certain breeders believe that dog's ability to reproduce himself is diminished after 7 years of age and that after that time the female's traits will dominate the breeding or be more expressed.


I think the import part is "*some *breeders believe" that means others don't. Those others might be the ones breeding to the older males. Or it could be they are capitalizing on the name and income, it's amazing how many stud dog owners I meet who really don't know a thing about the offspring their dog is producing, except for maybe the few standouts. 



Hunter Allred said:


> I'd be inclined to say genetics are genetics and don't change with age. However, sperm count and viability do. And math being so infallible, you could prove an older male with lesser quality and quantity of sperm would produce himself less simply because litters would tend to be smaller or not take. Mutation rates increase with age, so you could expect an increased rate of issues there, just as in humans


I'm with Hunter on this one. Also, if age effects anything I would think it would be more likely to effect the female. She's born with all the eggs she's going to have, and they age as she ages. The males sperm is "renewed" on a regular basis, age wise the sperm he produces at 10 is no older than the sperm he produced at 2 in terms of how long it's been in his body.

And I have seen older females, who produced healthy litters at a young age, suddenly start producing non-genetic health defects when bred at a later age.


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## Ang Cangiano (Mar 2, 2007)

http://www.nature.com/mp/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/mp201484a.html

Ang


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## Catherine Gervin (Mar 12, 2012)

Ang Cangiano said:


> http://www.nature.com/mp/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/mp201484a.html
> 
> Ang


that was very interesting...makes me think about all those much-younger trophy wives putting out babies with ancient rich benefactors...


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Ebay as well, same source I assume:
32. + 6 for shipping....


http://www.ebay.com/itm/Introductio...-Program-/321623989995?_trksid=p2054897.l4275


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## Cameron Jennings (Apr 7, 2013)

RNA.....................................


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## Marcel Winter (Mar 29, 2013)

Only in english why there is no Dutch version........:-\"

Its a must have for all the KNPV members in Holland


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