# dominance? cs? serious prob



## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

After reading the viscous dog thread that chris started about his mal and don answering a question i had on it i thought i would start a thread without hijacking chris viscous dog thread.

I have a fem rott which i have asked question on here about before on her fixation on smaller dogs and lack of focus when they are around she used to be a absolute chicken shit around larger dogs or dogs around her size but is getting cocky now with them to she has finally hit 18mths and there seems to have been a quick change in her behaviour with small children she will fixate on them like she does the furballs.

Now i got her out of the focus probs with the advice of jeff o and others who said once youve tried everything give a correction and i did quick and sharp and it took1 other correction and that fixed the problem when at fuss/heel i was happy and the dog not effected now the prob persisst when not working that she takes it upon herself to decide hey im not working i can do what i want now and starts to fixate when she sees them i have corrected her for it used prong the works it just not getten thru.

Now i spoke to local rott club and they see it quite often and say its a pecking order thing which i think is bull.I simply can not stand it and i have small nephews under 5 who she looks at like prey and fixates the ones around 10 or so who are bigger she doesnt seem to bother with knowing my dog and what she has done to little dogs and now what she is displaying to kids i a have serious concerns.

i want to know what people would do in my position this is a well socialised dog with kids from a pup all the way thru has never once been coaxed to be aggressive never done any protection work i do competition obedience and this behaviour makes it very hard to compete as the dog has a good level of training under her belt and is more than competition ready.Please keep in mind that this behaviour is recent and she has done it on numerous occasions lately it seems the same as the dog behaviour in which that case she eventually acted out.


----------



## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

When you see that look on your dogs face, get up and slap it off of her! If that doesn't work, keep her away form kids period. This to me is a safety issue and needs to be addressed quickly and harshly. Since your dog figured it out quickly enough onleash, hopefully a correction while she is offleash once or twice will be all that is needed. I don't deal well with dogs that prey out on kids or small pets/animals, they learn quickly I don't play that. Even rabbits and squirells don't get bolted after, unless I give a go signal or word.


----------



## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Michelle Kehoe said:


> needs to be addressed quickly and harshly.


Ditto.


----------



## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Michelle Kehoe said:


> When you see that look on your dogs face, get up and slap it off of her! If that doesn't work, keep her away form kids period. This to me is a safety issue and needs to be addressed quickly and harshly.



"Quickly" in both senses, meaning top priority _and _meaning before the fixation is even fully recognizable: anything beyond an eyeballs-keep-moving glance.


----------



## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

easy said then done 

i would love to deal with this that way and to be honest i probably will,i seem to have a lot of do gooders around my way and at one of the training clubs i frequent when she did this behaviour and gave her harsh correction i was quickly informed i would reported for cruelty most people would probably say screw it but there is many council memebers at this club so i took the threat serious.

The part about it that gets me is you slap the shit out of her1 day and 2 days later its bak without any thought which makes her untrustworthy 

so is it dominance or more of a bully mentality

connie,i have been trying exactly what you said as soon as she eyeballs wham even with prong this dog will still do it the next day then you can see that the dog just starts acting like im beating the crap out of her and shuts down


----------



## Alyssa Myracle (Aug 4, 2008)

The dog is probably conning you.

She's learned that by playing all submissive and tossing out avoidance behaviors, the corrections stop.
You trained her to act soft in the face of corrections. If she is truly in drive, she should be able to handle the corrections.

Frankly, I don't care if she IS going into avoidance over corrections- you're correcting her for eyeballing kids like chewtoys, right?

I'm not of the opinion that you CAN overcorrect in that instance.

If she wants to act all soft, fine. Play your game, bitch.
But I'm still going to correct the hell out of you.

If the correction truly WAS to harsh, she wouldn't be back at it a day or two later.

She's connin' you man.


----------



## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

When compulsion is used, it has to be borne out to the point when the dog submits 100%, be this in training (often neglected) or in daily life. A lot of people stop when the dog puts it ears back but this SHoneT is just trying to get you to you to lay off as Alyssa says. 
I love my dogs but I would squeeze the living daylights out of them if they even showed signs of being aggressive to kids or adults in my neighbourhood or anywhere.

However, I have the feeling that I can learn from the fluffs. Once I've made it clear "no go", I find that conditioning the dog to situations can help. If he reverts to "terror" back comes compulsion. If he accepts the situation, there could be a nice word for the sob.


----------



## Alyssa Myracle (Aug 4, 2008)

If your club has an issue with you correcting a dog for displaying aggressive behaviors towards children, FIND A NEW ****ING CLUB!


----------



## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

brad robert said:


> easy said then done
> 
> i would love to deal with this that way and to be honest i probably will,i seem to have a lot of do gooders around my way and at one of the training clubs i frequent when she did this behaviour and gave her harsh correction i was quickly informed i would reported for cruelty most people would probably say screw it but there is many council memebers at this club so i took the threat serious.
> 
> ...


Ask the doo gooders if they will take the dog and pay the expensess for the reconstructive surgery when she eats some kid? To me cruelty is letting the dog behave that way and then puting her down when she is full blown off the hook as an adult. 

I can't tell you if it's dominance, being a bully or she's a nervbag, doesn't matter anyway, the behaviour isn't acceptable and HAS to stop or the dog will be put down sooner or later. I also don't care if she screams like a Banshee or pisses all over herself, if she does it again the next day (wham!) even harder. 

I really can't see getting in trouble for giving a dog a hard correction in public, as long as your not using your foot, fist or cutting off the dogs oxygen supply but your in Austrailia, maybe it's different there? If they don't agree, they may boot you out of the club and I'd leave if that is the case. Maybe talk to your local animal control about laws if you aren't sure.


----------



## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

It's sick, I agree with Michelle and Alyssa, to have to say save the kid, not the dog!!!!!!!!


----------



## Alyssa Myracle (Aug 4, 2008)

I takes courage to stand up for what you know is right. That's a universal truth.

It applies in dog training as much as anywhere else. Sometimes you may find that other folks in the club actually agree with your way of thinking, but one or two dominant personalities have kept them from speaking up.

You standing up for what you feel is right, and doing what you need to do with your dog, may actually help those other folks find their own voice.


----------



## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Brad , 

I agree with the advice given so far . Just to show you how impoartant this is I'll give you an example of what could happen . I'm a Police K9 Handler . 

About 13 years ago when I was a Patrol Officer I was called to a hospital to take a dog bite report . I've taken alot of them and most aren't too bad . When I got there I found a very pretty little girl about 5 years old sobbing in the emergency room with a bandage on her face .

What had happened is similar to what you are describing . They had a Rott that had known the girl (neice of the dog's owner) since it was a puppy . The dog had always been good with all the kids but lately had started playing " rough " with the kids in the house , especially when the kids started running around . 

On this day the girl , along with her cousins , had been running around the house and when the girl ran for the front door the dog pounced on her bitting her in the face .

When I had the bandage removed to take photos the Officer taking the pictures and I were shocked by the injury . So much so we scared this poor girl who was unaware how bad her injury was . It was an about 8" laceration running from the top of her cheekbone to her chin . Worst dogbite I've ever seen on a child .

Little kids are some of the best decoys around they can build up a lot of frustration in a dog through their actions . This isn't directed towards Rott's just so happens to be the case in my story . This could be any dog of any breed showing these danger signals . 

I'd keep the dog away from kids and other dogs . I would only add that if you are going to correct this dog with a prong I would also have a dominate dog collar connected along with it . 

It does sound like from what I'm reading that the dog is conning you causing you to back off on the corrections . But if the dog is pushed into survival mode because you are over correcting or is a real strong dog and descides your corrections are just annoying and doesn't want to take it anymore you may have the dog turn on you . A prong only will not help you . 

I know it's a long shot but I'd research to find out if there are any trainers experianced with large aggressive dogs . This dog may not be aggressive yet but it sounds like you maybe heading that way and with large powerful dogs like yours I recommend having someone with knowledge in this area . Good Luck .


----------



## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

The ideal time was the first time. That is past. I am not a trainer so you may want to take this with a grain of salt. If it were my dog and this got this far, I would walk over the the shelf and slap a tritronic on her set on high. You really don't have time to play around with this because it could go south with the next kid. Electricity rules for stuff like this that needs immediate correcting. Make sure the dog cannot reach the kid when you do it.


----------



## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

thanks to everyone for taking the time to give your opinion and i now no what i have to do for sure.And looking at it i believe your right the dog probably has conned me to back off because she certainly hasnt.I dont own a e collar i only have prong and i will look up what a dominant dog collar is because im not familiar with it.
I will talk to this club about it if they have a problem with it screw em i will go elsewhere.

And jim that story hit me because of the age of my nephews if she bit any of them i wouldnt have a chance to put her down they do it right on the spot but i will keep her away from them and maybe do some intros from a distance and if she acts up i will serve it up big time.


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: It applies in dog training as much as anywhere else. Sometimes you may find that other folks in the club actually agree with your way of thinking, but one or two dominant personalities have kept them from speaking up.

Do you do Mondio ring ??? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


----------



## Alyssa Myracle (Aug 4, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Do you do Mondio ring ??? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


Alas, there seem to be no clubs in my area, and I'm not near experienced enough to start my own.

Some day...


----------



## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

brad robert said:


> thanks to everyone for taking the time to give your opinion and i now no what i have to do for sure.And looking at it i believe your right the dog probably has conned me to back off because she certainly hasnt.I dont own a e collar i only have prong and i will look up what a dominant dog collar is because im not familiar with it.
> I will talk to this club about it if they have a problem with it screw em i will go elsewhere.
> 
> And jim that story hit me because of the age of my nephews if she bit any of them i wouldnt have a chance to put her down they do it right on the spot but i will keep her away from them and maybe do some intros from a distance and if she acts up i will serve it up big time.



Never underestimate how FAST a dog moves when it is in the fixated state of mind. You will NOT be able to stop the dog once it starts.

I've been attacked a fair number of times - bitten fewer. But the scary ones are the dogs that fixate. They show almost no body language and they're so fast.

I was attacked and bitten by a dog about a month ago. It was a client's dog and I was there for an unrelated issue. The dog fixated right away. I was chatting with them - about 6 feet away. The dog was leased on a dominant dog collar, sitting "calmly" at heel, but fixated. The dog was so fast that none of us actually saw the attack/bite happen.

I had 6 or 7 punctures in my hand and wrist, including one through my fingernail.

You have no idea exactly how dangerous your dog is until it's too late. Some of us here that have witnessed or have been on the receiving end know it.

Read the book "Fatal Dog Attacks" by Karen Delise. The information in it can help you avoid certain situations to keep your dog, the kids and your $$$ safe.


----------

