# good way to test a dog



## Michael Murphy (Nov 27, 2010)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGsnsl5fLSc&feature=youtu.be

interesting test with the disguises etc, no equipment, so dog can not rely on previous training i guess.

curious how a lot of the "good" dogs would do with this test


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## Haz Othman (Mar 25, 2013)

She looked soft from the get go unsurprising result. Looked like a SL too so thats another odd stacked against her success.


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## Daniel Lybbert (Nov 23, 2010)

If I did that with Pryme those guys wouldn't walk into leash distance that's for sure.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

the dog I had would be looking to eat something as soon as the snap closed on the line..


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## Stacey Beller (Dec 9, 2012)

a dude in a Ghillie suit and a camo clown or is that an alien? #-o


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

How would you want a dog to react to that?

Bark aggressively? Attack? Lose it's mind? Blow its anals? 

Personally I think I would react much the same way the dog did. WTF is coming out of the woods and why am I tied to this tree?

I don't want my dog going into hyper vigilance mode when he sees something new. Living in the city, oddly dressed, oddly moving humans - be they small quick children, homeless people, the mentally ill, people in wheelchairs or with walkers, or just ordinary people in puffy jackets or layers of draped fabric should not trigger a meltdown in my dog. 

If I'm being threatened or I'm frightened by someone, I want my dog to step up. Otherwise, I expect my dog to be neutral. 

So yeah, I think it's a stupid test and wouldn't put my dog through it. What's it supposed to prove?


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## Haz Othman (Mar 25, 2013)

leslie cassian said:


> How would you want a dog to react to that?
> 
> Bark aggressively? Attack? Lose it's mind? Blow its anals?
> 
> ...


Id say if your dog acted like that one it wouldnt be protecting you from anything jmo. 
Both those people where staring down the dog, moving towards it, acting deliberately and aboviously sketchy. 

A nice response for me would be the dog at the end of the line barking. No backing up.


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

Haz Othman said:


> Id say if your dog acted like that one it wouldnt be protecting you from anything jmo.
> Both those people where staring down the dog, moving towards it, acting deliberately and aboviously sketchy.
> 
> A nice response for me would be the dog at the end of the line barking. No backing up.


I would expect that from a dog that has had some training. Tie my dog off now and he knows it's party time and he might get to bite someone, but the first time he saw a helper shuffling across a field toward him, he jumped behind me. 

To me, the dog in the video just looked confused and unsure about what she was supposed to do. Probably not a great dog - seemed pretty submissive when the handler was tying her off and messing with her collar, but then when the handler stepped out and had a little tea party with the 'scary' guys, the dog seemed willing to check them out. Then they decided to chase off the bad guys. 

So, IMO, not a good way to test a dog.


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

leslie cassian said:


> I would expect that from a dog that has had some training.


I use a similar test for 18 month old dogs that had no training. I want to see the dog's natural impulse, not the trained one. 


Regards


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

Tiago, did you think _that_ test was a good one?


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

leslie cassian said:


> Tiago, did you think _that_ test was a good one?


I do it differently.


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## Mark Herzog (Aug 22, 2013)

leslie cassian said:


> *How would you want a dog to react to that?*
> 
> Bark aggressively? Attack? Lose it's mind? Blow its anals?
> 
> ...


I want different reactions from different dogs, depending on what the dog's main function is. 

My main "by my side" protection dog if in that situation (staked out to a tree in the woods, me absent), would turn to face the approaching sound and movement. He would not come to the end of the line but would instead stand or more likely plutz near the tree. He would be silent in most cases like this. He would wait until the threat got to just inside the perimeter and then lunge. He would engage, or not, based on the reaction of the decoy (run, attack, ?..). Chained in place like that he would view that perimeter as his territory. Same situation without the chain and his behaviour would be different.

My second dog is more territorial as her primary function is different. She would alert to the approach and show aggression and bark long before they got close. If the continued to close as they did she would normally back up a bit (to create herself some distance) and if the decoy entered the perimeter she would engage immediately.

I can tell you that both those dogs as pups were raised to be suspicious of all strangers... They were territorial by nature... Barked at noises and animals in the woods, etc. we do these types of tests with our pups starting at 3 or 4 months.

I found the test interesting. I'm assuming that the handler was out of dogs sight not just out of camera shot. It was a way to test and see the dogs reaction to what I'm guessing were unknown people in unknown dress. To see how exactly the dog would react... What it's natural instincts are.

Judging from what I saw this dog was NOT raised to be suspicious of strangers or aggressive towards strangers, strange behaviours or movements. There is no show of territorial protection (the dog backs away and I suspect would have left entirely had it not been chained, but showed no sign of standing up to the intrusion of her space).

When the handler returned the dog made signs of going to approach the decoys, almost in a playful fashion... I'm guessing the dog has been taught to be friendly and "social" with people, and this bleeds through. The only barks came when the handler made signs to motion the decoys away, the dog chimed in but never became aggressive.


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## Haz Othman (Mar 25, 2013)

leslie cassian said:


> I would expect that from a dog that has had some training. Tie my dog off now and he knows it's party time and he might get to bite someone, but the first time he saw a helper shuffling across a field toward him, he jumped behind me.
> 
> To me, the dog in the video just looked confused and unsure about what she was supposed to do. Probably not a great dog - seemed pretty submissive when the handler was tying her off and messing with her collar, but then when the handler stepped out and had a little tea party with the 'scary' guys, the dog seemed willing to check them out. Then they decided to chase off the bad guys.
> 
> So, IMO, not a good way to test a dog.



I think a lot of dogs in IPO for instance would still get run in this test. No bite sleeve, no whip cracking, no ipo field, Decoys are not acting normally.

I view this as a genetics issue I think training has little to do with it. She showed what she truly is.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

WHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!

That was the stupidest thing I have ever seen in my life, like ever.


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## David Winners (Apr 4, 2012)

This kind of test is similar to one of the Swedish temperament tests. Do you think those type of tests have no value?



David Winners


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

David Winners said:


> This kind of test is similar to one of the Swedish temperament tests. Do you think those type of tests have no value?
> 
> David Winners


To determine if a test has value you need to know what you are testing for? My question is what are the folks in the video testing for? And what is considered a good response and what is considered a poor one with regards to what kind of response they are looking for?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

leslie cassian said:


> How would you want a dog to react to that?
> 
> Bark aggressively? Attack? Lose it's mind? Blow its anals?
> 
> ...


depends on the dog

My dogs never have to live on a line, or spend much time on a line that I have to worry about if they want to eat stuff on a line,
...
that being said they want to eat stuff while on a line, maybe even me.


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## Daniel Lybbert (Nov 23, 2010)

if my dog acted like that even when I put the collar on him I wouldnt want him He would need a pretty different reaction for me to keep him


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## Michael Murphy (Nov 27, 2010)

a working dog should not fail this test after the age of 18 months, training or no training.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

what is a fail Michael?


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## Mark Herzog (Aug 22, 2013)

Michael Murphy said:


> a working dog should not fail this test after the age of 18 months, training or no training.


We do this type of test a bit different but start very young... If we saw this kind of reactions then we would consider it a fail for our type of work. As I said earlier we begin this type of testing at around 3 months and give the test 2 or 3 times over a 2 to 6 week period to make sure we are getting an accurate picture of the dog's genetic character/instincts.

I don't consider this a "pass" or "fail" in the sense of good or bad dog... It's simply a judgement of the dog's ability to do the work we want. The dog in that video won't do that... Regardless how much training you might do, you may eventually get it to look good in a trained routine or some sport activities, but for the high stress work we do that dog will revert back to it's nature (what you see in the video).

Might be a great social/pet/house dog... And if that's what someone was looking for then the dog passed "their" test.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Mark, am I correct in assuming that you would want the dogs to fire up, just because they are dressed up in funny costumes?


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## andreas broqvist (Jun 2, 2009)

David Winners said:


> This kind of test is similar to one of the Swedish temperament tests. Do you think those type of tests have no value?
> 
> 
> 
> David Winners


No no no it is not simalar to ouer test at al. Totalt difrent test. 
Ouer test is done with handler holding the dog on a lesh, the dog can escape and the dog have somthing to protect. A wery difrent test.


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## andreas broqvist (Jun 2, 2009)

Att 10 minuters you can se that part of ouer test. 
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=nCzdEsreO3A


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

What he said David, ^^ lol.

This vid is also being discussed elsewhere. Here are my replies if anyone is interested.



> There is no way a dog can pass this test, it is purely defensive test. It is testing a fight or flight reaction.
> From the above statement "The club's by laws state something to the effect that all dogs must be leashed or muzzled when working with......etc."
> I believe,but I could be wrong, that a GSD is meant to be aloof i.e neutral.
> The only positive result would have been the dog being completely neutral to the Grokes which almost no dog would be, it's just too spaced out and trippy for any dog to not react either aggressively, exhibit flight or displacement behaviour without prior training. IMO a dog that is not trained to be completely neutral would do one of the above.
> ...



As always I am open to enlightenment


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## Mark Herzog (Aug 22, 2013)

Matt Vandart said:


> Mark, am I correct in assuming that you would want the dogs to fire up, just because they are dressed up in funny costumes?


Not exactly. Costumes or nothing... I want the dog first and foremost to react instantly to the sound and/or motion of something approaching. I would want them to instantly become attentive, to stand and pay direct attention to the approach... not necessarily to bark out (I can deal with that later if it's not what I want), but to show interest and an instinct to stare at the approach.

When I look at the test in that video, I don't see "funny costumes", what I see are unusual, skulking movements by the decoys... their step, their approach, their demeanor is anything but "normal" for everyday activity. "Normal" people don't approach a dog like that and so I want my dogs to see that, to sense that, to recognize it and to then react in their natural way to it. This will tell me what that dog "is" and what I am working with if I decide to put the time and effort into developing those natural instincts and abilities.

I'm not looking for dogs that "fire up" at every sound and movement in the woods... that type of behaviour often does appear but it also often dissipates with time and with training can be controlled. What I definitely *don't* want to see is what was in that video... a dog that barely noticed the approach initially... when it did it went to the far extreme of the chain. It looks totally uncertain and unsure... it kept glancing away from the decoys... trying to ignore them as if they might just go away. It continually turned away from the decoys as they approached, turned its' back repeatedly to face away. I'm not sure this had anything to do with the costumes being worn... I think it would have been the same for a man doing the exact same thing, but dressed in a business suit... or dressed in hockey gear. The idea (for me) of the costumes used in the video was to present the dog with something foreign, unknown and not easily recognized as a "man". Something to blend in a bit with the woods. All to see how the dog reacted to it. We do this type of thing all the time... so as NOT to let the dogs become too "familiar" or too "trained" to specific gear or dress or "looks". In other words, bite suit = bite work, camo = woods training, etc. I don't want the dog to associate dress with the behaviour expected. The actions of the decoy and people around us should dictate the reactions of the dogs. The only exception that comes to mind (on this) is that we will sometimes train the dog to recognize certain uniforms as 'friend or foe' if that dog is intended to work in an environment where that applies (police, military, security, etc.). But that's a training issue... not instinctive.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

We are in semi agreement, certainly with the way the dog reacted.
If anyone is interested this 'test' is for flock guardian dogs.


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Michael Murphy said:


> a working dog should not fail this test after the age of 18 months, training or no training.


Can you explain this further? In your opinion what is being tested? What result would you expect to see? What result do you want to see?


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

Mark Herzog said:


> Not exactly. Costumes or nothing... I want the dog first and foremost to react instantly to the sound and/or motion of something approaching. I would want them to instantly become attentive, to stand and pay direct attention to the approach... not necessarily to bark out (I can deal with that later if it's not what I want), but to show interest and an instinct to stare at the approach.
> 
> When I look at the test in that video, I don't see "funny costumes", what I see are unusual, skulking movements by the decoys... their step, their approach, their demeanor is anything but "normal" for everyday activity. "Normal" people don't approach a dog like that and so I want my dogs to see that, to sense that, to recognize it and to then react in their natural way to it. This will tell me what that dog "is" and what I am working with if I decide to put the time and effort into developing those natural instincts and abilities.
> 
> I'm not looking for dogs that "fire up" at every sound and movement in the woods... that type of behaviour often does appear but it also often dissipates with time and with training can be controlled. What I definitely *don't* want to see is what was in that video... a dog that barely noticed the approach initially... when it did it went to the far extreme of the chain. It looks totally uncertain and unsure... it kept glancing away from the decoys... trying to ignore them as if they might just go away. It continually turned away from the decoys as they approached, turned its' back repeatedly to face away. I'm not sure this had anything to do with the costumes being worn... I think it would have been the same for a man doing the exact same thing, but dressed in a business suit... or dressed in hockey gear. The idea (for me) of the costumes used in the video was to present the dog with something foreign, unknown and not easily recognized as a "man". Something to blend in a bit with the woods. All to see how the dog reacted to it. We do this type of thing all the time... so as NOT to let the dogs become too "familiar" or too "trained" to specific gear or dress or "looks". In other words, bite suit = bite work, camo = woods training, etc. I don't want the dog to associate dress with the behaviour expected. The actions of the decoy and people around us should dictate the reactions of the dogs. The only exception that comes to mind (on this) is that we will sometimes train the dog to recognize certain uniforms as 'friend or foe' if that dog is intended to work in an environment where that applies (police, military, security, etc.). But that's a training issue... not instinctive.


 I don't understand what reaction you are looking for other then a dog that stares at them?


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Mark Herzog said:


> but for the high stress work we do that dog will revert back to it's nature (what you see in the video).
> 
> 
> Mark what is the high stress work you do?


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## David Winners (Apr 4, 2012)

andreas broqvist said:


> No no no it is not simalar to ouer test at al. Totalt difrent test.
> Ouer test is done with handler holding the dog on a lesh, the dog can escape and the dog have somthing to protect. A wery difrent test.


Thanks for the link to the video Andres, and for pointing out the differences. I have not done this testing with a dog before and am only vaguely familiar with the tests. I just remembered the 2 suspicious characters approaching the dog.


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## Mark Herzog (Aug 22, 2013)

Chris McDonald said:


> Mark Herzog said:
> 
> 
> > but for the high stress work we do that dog will revert back to it's nature (what you see in the video).
> ...


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Do you have a command centre?
Have you considered a change of career? 

Nah, I'm just messing with ya.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

another note, I think this could be trained for, considering that the people could possibly know what is going to happen.


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Michael Murphy said:


> a working dog should not fail this test after the age of 18 months, training or no training.


Explain yourself.

You always tend to post the most insane topics and have rather strange viewpoints on things so now I would like to see you explain this comment to us. 

What if the dog was 17, 5 months? Would it be okay if it failed then? What is the basis for the 18 month old line in the sand as you draw it?

What do you have in arguements to back up your statement? Experiance? Why is this a good test in your eyes?

Make us all believe in you and for once give an actual, well thought out point of view instead of hiding in your command center with a bucket off tennis balls....


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

Alice Bezemer said:


> Explain yourself.
> 
> You always tend to post the most insane topics and have rather strange viewpoints on things so now I would like to see you explain this comment to us.
> 
> ...



Michael's gonna get a spanking...lol


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Alice Bezemer said:


> instead of hiding in your command center with a bucket off tennis balls....


I don't think its the tennis balls he's playing with......


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Alice Bezemer said:


> Explain yourself........
> 
> *Make us all believe in you and for once give an actual, well thought out point of view instead of hiding in your command center with a bucket off tennis balls....*


Whahahahahaha!


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## Timothy Saunders (Mar 12, 2009)

I would like to say it was not a defensive test, even if it was intended to be.
the dog was already in flight mode before any threat was made. I think a pass ( if you want to call it that) could range from the dog standing there and looking at the the approaching objects, barking and standing its ground or trying to be aggressive and bite the objects. jmho


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

sarah platts said:


> i don't think its the tennis balls he's playing with......


 lol :d


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

I never understood this test and thought it was just me not understanding this test. But the more I see of this test the more I don’t understand this test. What I do understand of this test is that it has no use at all, I think. I think a most of the dogs reaction has to do with previous training and past experiences. Any dog of a year old has some form of experiences even if locked in a cage for the year. I think the dogs reactions may vary dramatically depending who raised it. Even if there was no actual “training” at all, just a pick-up truck dog. 
I think even a proven, tough, real world dog, that would fight hard if asked may not feel the need to go to the end of its leash and bark (I am going to presume that is what some of you may consider a pass?)
I even think you might get different reactions on different days from the same dog. 
Im even thinking that a dog that just stands there watching might even be a great dog? 
A dog at the end of its leash barking might be highly trained bad ass dog or it might be a junkyard dog… with some abuse? 
The only thing this test shows me is that someone is dum enough to tie their dog in the woods for no reason.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Tiago Fontes said:


> Michael's gonna get a spanking...lol



I hope so. 


_
"Make us all believe in you and for once give an actual, well thought out point of view instead of hiding in your command center with a bucket of tennis balls...."_





Originally Posted by Michael Murphy _
" ... a working dog should not fail this test after the age of 18 months, training or no training."_


"*Explain yourself.*
_
You always tend to post the most insane topics and have rather strange viewpoints on things so now I would like to see you explain this comment to us."_


So would I.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Chris McDonald said:


> I never understood this test and thought it was just me not understanding this test. But the more I see of this test the more I don’t understand this test. What I do understand of this test is that it has no use at all, I think. I think a most of the dogs reaction has to do with previous training and past experiences. Any dog of a year old has some form of experiences even if locked in a cage for the year. I think the dogs reactions may vary dramatically depending who raised it. Even if there was no actual “training” at all, just a pick-up truck dog.
> I think even a proven, tough, real world dog, that would fight hard if asked may not feel the need to go to the end of its leash and bark (I am going to presume that is what some of you may consider a pass?)
> I even think you might get different reactions on different days from the same dog.
> *Im even thinking that a dog that just stands there watching might even be a great dog? *
> ...


Indeed


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Chris said
"*Im even thinking that a dog that just stands there watching might even be a great dog?

Absolutly! A dog with very strong nerves may not see the need to get excited without having been trained to 'recognize" a threat. 
*


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