# Fear issues.. need some advice (long)



## Marta Wajngarten (Jul 30, 2006)

I feel like I'm hitting a wall with my Dutchie girl and thought I would get some ideas and advice on how to proceed and if I'm even on the right track. 

Brief history.. I had her since she was about 6.5/7wks old. When I picked her up she was the puppy jumping up the highest for attention, immediately followed me every where and wouldn't leave my side. When we got home, it quickly became evident she was scared of every thing. If a paper cup fell on the ground and make noise she would tuck tail and run. She would pretty much freak out and run for her life at any new sound, but would eventually over come things, some within a few minutes others after months of trying (took her 4 months to gradually accept the hair dryer). She was initially good with people as a little pup, didn't go running up to strangers but was happy to say hi. She didn't have much drive for any toys, so we mostly worked on environmental stuff, taking her every where. I brought her out to the club mostly to socialize and get used to the sounds, etc. She showed some drive for toys at home but never in a different environment, it was a struggle to get her to tug for more then 5 seconds, but she was perfectly happy to latch on to me every time I tried to run, she ripped plenty of my clothing, and within reason I let her trying to build her confidence and foster any signs of drive. 

She rather quickly became very attached to me and would turn into a psycho if I tried to leave her with some one else, so that was one of the things we worked on while we were at our club. I would hand her off to some else and we did the pass the puppy thing while I worked my other dog. The first person in the line up got growled at and attacked (as much as a little 10lb puppy can attack) but she would eventually get over it and calm down. She went through phases where she liked strangers or was indifferent to them, then hated them, then liked them again. I arranged for her to spend some days with a trainer I trusted away from me, pretty much sent her off to daycare just to socialize with the attendants. Would get all the strangers we met on our walks to give her treats, again she improved. Her reaction to strangers was always flavoured with fear and avoidance, when she was being aggressive it was bark approach back up bark type behaviour, if she was eventually friendly it was after some form of previous avoidance. 

At around 6 months old she all of a sudden turned on in drive and started to bite toys and tugs, retrieving and even shoving toys in your lap to play tug or fetch with. I have been working on building her drive the whole time, but this was some thing she did on her own literally over night, it was quite the transformation. 

When working and on the filed, she does just fine, she takes pressure just fine, you hit her harder with the stick or make threatening gestures, she just brings more fight into the bite and clamps down harder. When she latches on she has a very calm firm grip. She can come into a crowd of people on the side of the field and just does her thing. But as soon as some one tries to pet her or say hi in a social context, she backs right up like they're made out of fire. 

We're still working on socializing after all this time, I taker her places, I get strangers to give her food, but I see no improvement. There are some people who just casually walk right up to her pet her and she will accept them, some she will even become affectionate with and give little kisses. But the vast majority of people she reacts to with unreasonable fear, backs up, barks and runs back and forth, hackles raised. To say the least it's irritating. There isn't even a clear pattern to how she is approached, ie if they kneel down and act goofy because some people do and she's fine with them, some stand there calmly ignoring her and she still freaks out. 

I can walk her on a busy street downtown and through crowds, she's fine. If she's in obedience trotting at heel she could care less, if she's got her nose to the ground, she could care less just navigates through the people occasionally turning her head to get a sniff of who she just passed by. If we stop and stand on a corner she starts showing stress about the people walking by, she tries to sneak up to them when they're not looking and smell them, acts all cautious, if they move even a bit she quickly retreats. 

A friend that she knows and loves came over last night with his girlfriend (new to her) and she barked her head off at first, hackles up, the girl completely ignored her. The whole night she gave her the shifty eye, if we played tug she would twist and turn to make sure she didn't have her back to the stranger. A couple times she tried to come up slowly to sniff her and we managed to get a couple pats in, but then she went back to barking. By the end of the night she was relaxed and doing her own thing, but still kept an eye on her and wouldn't come up to her. 

At this point when we're out and about and come up to a stranger I'm doing a combination of obedience (sit or stay) and tell her no and put her back in her position when she is freaking out, and calmly give treats to the new person and let them feed her. That at least stops some of the hectic behaviour of running around and backing up. I try to be calm and firm with her. She almost always breaks her stays under these circumstance and tries to get away. If I feel the pressure is too much, I don't insist on stressing her, I get her calm and then we walk away. She will always take the food, no problem, but she doesn't show any improvement. Alternatively I can have a conversation with the new person and have her sitting or in a down beside my without issues for the most part, as long as the other person ignores her. She knows she gets cookies at the Petsmart cashier and milks them for it, but won't let them touch her. You could be a stranger with a set of leg sleeves, she'll engage you and let you hit her with no issues.



So what do I want? I don't want her and don't expect her to be every one's best friend. I don't have to have people say hi to her. I'm not particularly worried about her attacking some one (although it is a worry if she continues to be unreasonably fearful and continues to get stronger in character otherwise as she matures, her general default behaviour is to be mouthy and has quite the explosive bark when she does react). All I want is for her to act reasonably calm when some one looks down and makes eye contact with her and says oh what a pretty doggy! I'm perfectly capable of saying please don't touch my dog. Do I keep doing the food thing? Do I even keep trying or give up and work on solid obedience under distraction instead (a goal any ways). She is an incredibly smart and thinking dog and is capable of amazing focus. She is exactly 9 months old.


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## jeff gamber (Feb 15, 2010)

Marta Haus said:


> I feel like I'm hitting a wall with my Dutchie girl and thought I would get some ideas and advice on how to proceed and if I'm even on the right track.
> 
> 
> At around 6 months old she all of a sudden turned on in drive and started to bite toys and tugs, retrieving and even shoving toys in your lap to play tug or fetch with. I have been working on building her drive the whole time, but this was some thing she did on her own literally over night, it was quite the transformation.
> ...


Marta, why are you putting that kind of pressure ona six month old dog? That "stick" should never touch your pup during trainer. At most she should be stroked w/it in a positive manner, not asked to handle the pressure with aggression or "fight" (not like the dog really even has a *mature* comprehension of aggression or fight drive at this age).

I may be completely off base and if I am or others think that, I apologize. I think six months is way too young to do this. The dog should be being built up to think he/she "owns the world" and is an undefeated prizefighter, not a slumdog scrapping since a kid in the streets...

This method incorporated in your training at your pup's lifestage may be a contributing factor to the behavoir you are concerned about...


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## Marta Wajngarten (Jul 30, 2006)

jeff gamber said:


> Marta, why are you putting that kind of pressure ona six month old dog? That "stick" should never touch your pup during trainer. At most she should be stroked w/it in a positive manner, not asked to handle the pressure with aggression or "fight" (not like the dog really even has a *mature* comprehension of aggression or fight drive at this age).
> 
> I may be completely off base and if I am or others think that, I apologize. I think six months is way too young to do this. The dog should be being built up to think he/she "owns the world" and is an undefeated prizefighter, not a slumdog scrapping since a kid in the streets...
> 
> This method incorporated in your training at your pup's lifestage may be a contributing factor to the behavoir you are concerned about...


She is 9 months old not 6, she really doesn't get to see much of the stick, just the few times she did, she had no issues with it. I'm just mentioning it because it is such a stark difference in her behaviour when she isn't threatened. 

But I do get what you're saying about any stress in bite work transfering to her social life and that is a good point to consider.


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## jeff gamber (Feb 15, 2010)

@ Marta:

I guess another thing to consider is the timeline for Socialization vs. Helper w/stickwork. Reason being, if her socialization and exposure was completely finished or at least with a solid foundation, it could manifest the fear, insecurity, or avoidance you are now seeing.


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## Marta Wajngarten (Jul 30, 2006)

jeff gamber said:


> @ Marta:
> 
> I guess another thing to consider is the timeline for Socialization vs. Helper w/stickwork. Reason being, if her socialization and exposure was completely finished or at least with a solid foundation, it could manifest the fear, insecurity, or avoidance you are now seeing.


No, that unreasonable fear and avoidance was always there and we have struggled with it since she was a baby. Yes she showed signs of improvement and got slightly better on occasion, but over all I would say she has always been fearful and/or reactive towards strangers pretty much her whole life. She didn't like strangers approaching her when she was 10 wks old she still doesn't like it, the reaction is just different because of her size and maturity. At 10 weeks she squeaked and barked and hid behind me, now at 9 months she barks and runs back and forth. And it's that insecure sounding bark, when she's barking at the helper she's having fun and uses her bring it on bark. Totally different attitude, she's happy and confident when working.


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

marta she sounds like a nerve bag and when she was a pup and you realised this you should have taken her back good pups dont act like this usually.

To me its just something you dont need to deal with in your training putting you behind before you start.

What you do now is upto you as you probably have become attached ?


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## jeff gamber (Feb 15, 2010)

@ Marta
@ Brad

Brad could be absoulutely right and sound advice. Marta who is your female pup out of, if it's something you feel like sharing???

Please don't say Carlos!!! (Man, did I just type that out loud)(Come on that had to make someone laugh)


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Marta Haus said:


> No, that unreasonable fear and avoidance was always there and we have struggled with it since she was a baby. Yes she showed signs of improvement and got slightly better on occasion, but over all I would say she has always been fearful and/or reactive towards strangers pretty much her whole life. She didn't like strangers approaching her when she was 10 wks old she still doesn't like it, the reaction is just different because of her size and maturity. At 10 weeks she squeaked and barked and hid behind me, now at 9 months she barks and runs back and forth. And it's that insecure sounding bark, when she's barking at the helper she's having fun and uses her bring it on bark. Totally different attitude, she's happy and confident when working.


 
Either its a nerve bag now, or once you send it down the road, your perfect superstar in the waiting....I'd give it to 12-14 months before you wash the dog out period.


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Jody Butler said:


> Either its a nerve bag now, or once you send it down the road, your perfect superstar in the waiting....I'd give it to 12-14 months before you wash the dog out period.


I think this is a good point if your willing to be patient.

What you have been doing with stays and stays under distraction might work this can help some dogs then others which are just to nervy it only puts a light cover on what lays underneath.


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

I had a cattle dog that sounds very much like your dog. She was incredibly smart, driven and would have been perfect as a sport dog except for one major problem - her reactivity towards strangers.

I worked incredibly hard with this dog and we did progress to a certain extent but really in the end it came down to her amazing obedience skills under distraction that kept her together. I trained very hard on her obedience skills out and about. I would get her to look at what she was afraid at and then immediately focus on me so this became her default reaction.

I never got her in the trial ring as she died at 2 1/2 after picking up a poison bait so I cant say if she would ever have been stable enough to take that pressure. I suspect not.

I personally think that she was genetically unstable. I could walk her down a crowded street no problem untill someone stopped to talk to me. I did get her to the point where she would sit by my side and tolerate it but if I went too long I could tell she was right on the edge. If a stranger appeared out of nowhere it was a different story and this it where her default of looking at me became useful although there was a few seconds of high reactivity

Too be honest it is not an experience I would like to repeat although at home she was the most loving dog and eager to work and was fine with people and dogs she knew well. She was also fine at my club as she had been there since a pup, but outside of those environments it was hard work.

She did make me a better trainer but she also absorbed so much of the time I should have been spending training my stable trialing dogs. If she had of lived, yes I would have kept her as it was either that or euthanaise her, no way I would have passed her on to someone else.

Anyway at 9 months I would also give it time.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

If she was like this as a pup, that is what she is and you have already put in 7 mo more than I would have if I wanted a working dog.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

jeff gamber said:


> Marta who is your female pup out of, if it's something you feel like sharing???
> 
> Please don't say Carlos!!! (Man, did I just type that out loud)(Come on that had to make someone laugh)


Jeff, if this is the same pup I remember seeing pics of - then, yes she is. Marta, I had a bitch (not a dutchie) like this that I stuck it out with. So, I understand some of what you are going through but if I had to do it again, I wouldn't.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Marta, 

First off, This is annoying. Second, I say stop having people give her food...I get the idea of associating people with good things, like food. exhasterbate theproblem when it's done without being able to read the dog or mis-reading them. The end result is a pup forced into a stressful situation beyond it's emotional capablity. also the pass the pup game only seemed to achieve forcing a kid who's afraid of the dark to go into dark room if get what I mean. I think a lot people talk about how a good puppy is one who has brass balls and shows the charcteristics of a warrior. For me not only is it unfair, it's unrealistic. They are puppies. Just as a child does not hold the nerve a grown up does. 

The food thing can work, But what I think is happening is that the dog's stress level is to high for it to work. If you pay attention there is most likely a boundry the dog has set. Let it be 2 feet or 10 feet. There is a point where the dog goes from cool, to not so cool. And I bet it's the same amount of distance each time. Now If you can gauge this and have some stay outside the stress zone and toss treats with the dog free to make it's own approach on it's own time. This would allow the dog to slowly desensitize itself to getting close to people.

There are a lot of components to socialization, and one of them I think is often not respected....the genetic component. Sometimes the dog is someone whom we wish they weren't and no amount of hotdogs is going to make them better. if there is a genetic limitation, nothing will change that. You cannot install something in the dog that is not already there.

Now as for the dog being a nerve bag, whether or not this is true. I think it's a little shitty people look down there nose at you and your dog. I respect some people only wish to deal with the throughobred and will quickly dismiss the dog that may leave them wanting. But some people are trainers, and do not have the luxury of sifting through dogs to find the one that fits thier tastes. Some have to play to the hand they are dealt. 

And just a thought on Females in general. I think many people like it when a girl matures as a quick as a boy in terms of nerve. But these females are rare...I believe they are the most precious gems in dogs. Biologically it's unnatural for females to have a high fear threshhold. They have a high instinct to preserve themselve. This is true with most mammals. This is why Danika Patrick was an anonmaly in auto racing. If you want most women to do 200 MPH and get to the front of the pack...the only way your going to make them take such a risk is put thier first born in the lead car. And that's the truth. If the Females went out and took the almost idiotic risks that men do...the species would die, because you would run out of females to bear young. It only takes one male to impregnant the females. but females have a very slow reproductive cycle. Does that make sense. Men are stupid and take stupid risks because the species does not need to preserve us. The women do not because the species need them to bear young and take care of them.

So with that in mind. When ever I get a female....slow is the pace. I think the ablilty of a female to take pressure is so much more fragile early in thier life compared to a male. That I do not think they possess the ability to even start being capable of learning how to deal with it to well passed thier first heat. Again, there are rare dogs. But I think the only thing you can do with a young female by making them "deal" with pressure is make them more aware of how much they need to worry about preserving themselves.


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## Tammy St. Louis (Feb 17, 2010)

i agree totally to stop getting people to give her food, i did this with my fear full am staff for YRS and only made the issue worse, because 
YOU CANT CONTROL PEOPLE, even though you say please just give the dog food , they will either talk to the dog, or bend over it or try to pet it and so on , this makes your dog not trust you because you keep putting her in unsafe situations, 
i changed my plan after seeing a behaviourist with my am staff, , she told me that when he sees people YOU give him treats, do not allow people to touch him 
so that he is not contiually put under pressure
if you keep her safe for a long period of time without having her react , then the habit will be more to be ok and ignore people 
my rule with Reason my am staff now is no matter who you are, you do not talk or touch him , treat him like he is not there, his behaviour has improved 100% since i have done this 
I had to laugh because my training parter , also a friend who i walk with at least 3 times a week says to me the other day , I think Reason is my favorite dog that you own, even though i have never touched him , 
i laughed cuz we have been walking together for over a yr, and i know i told her at first not to touch him , but i didnt mean for a yr, lol , but he LOVES HER,,,


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

James Downey said:


> Marta,
> 
> First off, This is annoying. Second, I say stop having people give her food...I get the idea of associating people with good things, like food. exhasterbate theproblem when it's done without being able to read the dog or mis-reading them. The end result is a pup forced into a stressful situation beyond it's emotional capablity. also the pass the pup game only seemed to achieve forcing a kid who's afraid of the dark to go into dark room if get what I mean. I think a lot people talk about how a good puppy is one who has brass balls and shows the charcteristics of a warrior. For me not only is it unfair, it's unrealistic. They are puppies. Just as a child does not hold the nerve a grown up does.
> 
> ...


With my fearfull dog I agree the key to working with food in the desensitisation process was indeed being able to guage the distance at which she felt comfortable. I didnt use it as a treat so to speak, I used it so she associated a pleasurable experience with a stranger but she had to be working at the distance where she wasnt aroused and I gave the food. It was a slow process and not something you can rush. If you choose to go down this track it can work to a certain point. 

The other component however as has been mentioned is the genetic component and I also tend to agree will limit the sucess of this process I believe.

In terms of females not sure how valid your comparison is to humans. I think that depends. I have had ACD females who are pretty much fearless from birth, my current one is a completely relentless but savvy hunter and will take on roos, pigs etc and I think would show similar characteristics on station cattle and I have male Koolie who is a very social dog but scared of hurting himself LOL and doesnt have that same brazen attitude that several of my ACD females have when they hurl themselves round the agility courses or into the hunt. He is much more carefull and interested in self preservation LOL. 

Some of our best young herding dogs are female and they show a lot of early nerve and skill on livestock.

In many wild situations females cope with all the hunting(lioness) and other big cats bring up young as solitary mothers. Female hyenas are bristling with testosterone LOL. I doubt if there is too much room for early fragility on the African plains.


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

James Downey said:


> Marta,
> 
> So with that in mind. When ever I get a female....slow is the pace. I think the ablilty of a female to take pressure is so much more fragile early in thier life compared to a male. That I do not think they possess the ability to even start being capable of learning how to deal with it to well passed thier first heat. Again, there are rare dogs. But I think the only thing you can do with a young female by making them "deal" with pressure is make them more aware of how much they need to worry about preserving themselves.


I was thinking about this and as a lover of extreme sports I was at my most fearless when I was young. I got more circumspect and less inclined to take foolish risks as I matured. I still shudder at some of the risks I took in my youth LOL. I see big differences in my 2 teenage nieces. One is a fearless and driven showjumper like her mother (my sister) and will take on massive jumps and is highly competitive, the other likes horse riding but is nervy and spooked easily with all but little jumps.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Sara Waters said:


> With my fearfull dog I agree the key to working with food in the desensitisation process was indeed being able to guage the distance at which she felt comfortable. I didnt use it as a treat so to speak, I used it so she associated a pleasurable experience with a stranger but she had to be working at the distance where she wasnt aroused and I gave the food. It was a slow process and not something you can rush. If you choose to go down this track it can work to a certain point.
> 
> The other component however as has been mentioned is the genetic component and I also tend to agree will limit the sucess of this process I believe.
> 
> ...


 
I am not so sure I am right on that either. It is just a thought. But there is a reason that boys do tend to do better in bitework sports. Now people have tried to tell me that it's because the females that are breed cannot be trained properly. But I do not buy that. My experience shows me for biting dogs. It's much, much tougher to find a female that can do it, let alone do it to the level most folks like. 

Also bitework, for all intensive purposes as no real benefit to the dog like hunting would. It really is a stupid risk for the dog in terms of survival. It seems that bitework may have other satisfactions to the animal beyond survival. Think about it, dogs that bite because they feel they may die, really do not make good protection dogs. Prides of lions generally have only one male, and moms by themselves do not have much choice. Also I think the NatGeo videos often display the drama of a pride taking down a massive animal. I think that this most likelyis not the norm. I suspect the more likely scavage, and if they do kill an animal it's an easy target. 

I do not know much about herding or the dogs. And Again, I am not sure the theory is correct. But it does seem that it's much easier to ruin a female than a male.


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## Marta Wajngarten (Jul 30, 2006)

I knew this would be good for something  Thanks every one!

Yes, the food from people is stopping for all the points mentioned and if I think about it, doing that puts her focus and the emphasis on the person, she already puts too much focus on the person on her own. She needs to learn to chill and ignore instead, then gradually acknowledge but not overly focus and worry as she does now. 

I didn't want to mask and avoid the issue with her by just doing obedience but I think all the suggestions are dead on about desensitizing and redirecting focus, at least until she is more mentally ready, because you're right she isn't right now. I can see her mind going a thousand miles an hour during each of these interactions. 

@Sara, my Corso is dog reactive so I already have some experience with this in a different outfit but for some reason I didn't quite see it as that until you mentioned the redirection exercises. That's easy we can do those. 

This dog isn't going any where. I was the first one to say she's shit and wanted to get rid of from the start, but on advice of many others around me (and I got called being mean to the baby) I'm glad I waited this out. She was close to gone on many many occasions and each time I said I would sleep on it and each time she was better the next day with what ever the problem was. It's as if she knew she had to pull her pants up. She's gone from having almost no drive to being a little monster, a transformation so drastic I would have never imagined or predicted it. She is a fantastic little dog in all other aspects and she is very easy to live with, very clean, very affectionate with those she knows well, and quite entertaining with her edge. She most certainly deserves another chance and more time at this and I don't mind. This is the one last big issue that has persisted. 

Nicole good memory.


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## Marta Wajngarten (Jul 30, 2006)

James Downey said:


> This is why Danika Patrick was an anonmaly in auto racing. If you want most women to do 200 MPH and get to the front of the pack...the only way your going to make them take such a risk is put thier first born in the lead car.


You're preaching to the wrong girl, I race motorcycles and know plenty of other fearless girls that pass the boys on the track. One of the reasons Danika is an anomaly is because it's so damn expensive to get into auto racing to begin with and not many women get into it even at lower levels. Ask most racing instructors and they'll tell you women usually do better at first as they use their brains and learn the techniques, it's not just about having balls and no sense of self preservation. While natural talent is a must, the people who move on to the big game are usually the ones with the biggest line of credit (or a rich daddy) great marketing skills and perseverance to stay in the game.


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

James Downey said:


> Also bitework, for all intensive purposes as no real benefit to the dog like hunting would. It really is a stupid risk for the dog in terms of survival. It seems that bitework may have other satisfactions to the animal beyond survival. Think about it, dogs that bite because they feel they may die, really do not make good protection dogs. Prides of lions generally have only one male, and moms by themselves do not have much choice. Also I think the NatGeo videos often display the drama of a pride taking down a massive animal. I think that this most likelyis not the norm. I suspect the more likely scavage, and if they do kill an animal it's an easy target.
> 
> I do not know much about herding or the dogs. And Again, I am not sure the theory is correct. But it does seem that it's much easier to ruin a female than a male.


You would know more about bitework than me! Herding traits are often very much linked to the breeding and genetics and I dont think it matters much. Some of the top workers are females and they are quite prepared to take on difficult livestock.

I was bought up on the plains of Central Africa and indeed lionesses are fearless hunters and working as the sisterhood will frequently tackle big game inculding buffalo, although they will obviously always look for and exploit any weaknesses. They need to kill frequently if they are a big pride so scavenging is less of an option. Males are less agile and less tuned to the hunting methods of the pride females who have always been together and tend to just get in the way and ruin the hunt LOL. They just turn up for the feast and take the best bits LOL. Evolution has selected the best survival mechanisms for each of the species. Single mums are the ones who teach the hunting methods to the next generation, so survival of the species depends on them.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Marta, I have a half sibling to your pup (that's why I remembered yours), which I also find very easy to live with, clean, affectionate, and surprisingly outgoing and "prom queen" social. I think you've been given some really good advice here. As far as James commenting on people looking down their nose at the situation - I think that's a misread. I certainly didn't read the comments posted here that way. I commend you for sticking it out and seeing where this goes.

My previous DDB was a bit like you describe. Very few entered into her circle. For the most part this wasn't a problem, but the times that it was it did create some hardship for the dog. One of my last memories of her was the day she had a stroke. The vet she knew her entire life (nearly 11 years) wasn't available to take care of her and I had to turn her over to strangers on her final day. I can still see her in my mind being carried off in a muzzle, shaking. Only to be returned to have the muzzle taken off just before she was euthanized. I remember the look in her eyes after they took the muzzle off and frankly sometimes shit like that haunts a person. 

Certain lifestyles are hard on a dog especially to those reactive to people. My dog, the one I stuck it out with all those years, was admittedly put into situations numerous times that she genetically wasn't capable of handling. Once the motor blew on the boat and we needed to pass two 100 lb dogs off from one boat into another over open water and into the arms of complete strangers. The same happened when I flew her, the bush pilots always help load the dogs and sometimes you couldn't necessarily control who else took a seat rate. In a different home, she would have never experienced these things and, I really do think that aspects of her life would have been easier had she not. James, that's all I meant by saying I wouldn't do it again. 

Marta, perhaps you could consider having someone video these exchanges and post them here to see if you can fine tune your approach to this matter. There could be a number of small but key things that are being missed which might help you greatly to be aware of.


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## Marta Wajngarten (Jul 30, 2006)

Nicole Stark said:


> Marta, perhaps you could consider having someone video these exchanges and post them here to see if you can fine tune your approach to this matter. There could be a number of small but key things that are being missed which might help you greatly to be aware of.


Yup for sure, I usually record our training sessions and review the vids later and often find things I can improve on. Will have to find me a paparazzi to follow us around on the streets with a cam


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

I'd find that quite interesting. There were a couple of ideas that from my own experience are dead on. No treats from strangers. Identify the physical boundary (I am certain there is one with nearly every dog like this) and whoever (Tammy, I think) suggested, for people to act as if the dog didn't exist. IMO these are all great suggestions for your situation.


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Nicole Stark said:


> My previous DDB was a bit like you describe. Very few entered into her circle. For the most part this wasn't a problem, but the times that it was it did create some hardship for the dog. One of my last memories of her was the day she had a stroke. The vet she knew her entire life (nearly 11 years) wasn't available to take care of her and I had to turn her over to strangers on her final day. I can still see her in my mind being carried off in a muzzle, shaking. Only to be returned to have the muzzle taken off just before she was euthanized. I remember the look in her eyes after they took the muzzle off and frankly sometimes shit like that haunts a person.
> 
> Marta, perhaps you could consider having someone video these exchanges and post them here to see if you can fine tune your approach to this matter. There could be a number of small but key things that are being missed which might help you greatly to be aware of.


Yes I remember the day my dog was poisoned and I had to take her at midnight to a vet she didnt know. She was absolutely hysterical and shaking I think it is what sent her body temperature soaring and greatly reduced her chances of survival. I still think about it sometimes.

I took my dog initially to a very good trainer who was able to pick up many of those subtle and fleeting signs that my dog was displaying which greatly helped me work with her.

I also would not wish to go through all that again, although if I had lived then on a remote farm like I do now it would have been much easier on her. There would have been little need for her to face the real world.


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## Erica Boling (Jun 17, 2008)

Marta, you should share one of your motorcycle photos with you racing.


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Marta Haus said:


> You're preaching to the wrong girl, I race motorcycles and know plenty of other fearless girls that pass the boys on the track. One of the reasons Danika is an anomaly is because it's so damn expensive to get into auto racing to begin with and not many women get into it even at lower levels. Ask most racing instructors and they'll tell you women usually do better at first as they use their brains and learn the techniques, it's not just about having balls and no sense of self preservation. While natural talent is a must, the people who move on to the big game are usually the ones with the biggest line of credit (or a rich daddy) great marketing skills and perseverance to stay in the game.


When I was a youngster a group of us would head out on the open country roads and race our big road bikes. I remember reaching speeds of 230km/hr on mine. It was all highly illegal and you wouldnt get away with it these days LOL., but it sure was fun even with the threat of kangaroos. I also worked at a racing stables and us girls being the lightest, were the ones that did the track work with the young colts just back from being broken in, and stoked up on the best nutirtion money could buy they were real handfulls.


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Nicole was right Marta. James misread what i meant I certainly wasnt looking down at you in fact i take my hat off to you for trying and if you have grown to like her i would keep a dog i liked too.

I guess i was just pointing out what you were already fully aware of the more i read your later posts.

Good luck with her and have fun!


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

now i havent read the whole thing here but im thinking that maybe Marta needs to stop forcing the issue?

from what I read from your statement about the dog you are trying everything to get her no to clam up or to make her feel more secure...basicly you have thrown everything at her except the kitchensink! 

stop trying so hard! your trying might be the whole issue here....keep in mind that your mental state of mind is not that hard for her to read...dogs tend to notice what we try to hide...leave her be...if she happens to do something right then dont go all out in praise and toys and treats...let her figure it out for herself....my feeling is she is being pushed to hard and thats causing the behaviour....then again I might be wrong


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

What is meant when we speak about the temperament of a dog? This term is very often used, but very little understood by the users. 

The physical and mental characteristics or peculiarities of an individual dog, made evident through its reaction to physical and situational stimuli, that is, any change in its environment.

This definition is not just a theoretical concept it is a practical working tool. Davis’ concept of temperament has certain characteristics that cannot be separated from it.

Characteristics of Temperament

Temperament is primarily a function of the dog’s neurological makeup

Temperament is 100% genetic; it is inherited, and fixed at the moment of the dog’s fertilization/conception/birth

Temperament in the dog cannot be eliminated nor transformed from one type to another. It cannot change during the dog’s lifetime. It is the permanent mental/neurological characteristic of the individual dog. But there may be an overlap of different temperaments in the same dog. For example sharpness may be seen with over aggression or submissiveness with being temperamental. 

Environment, Socialization or Training can modify the expression of an individual dog’s temperament, but they cannot transform it nor eliminate it. The dog will die with the temperament with which it was born. 

In other words, the sum total of the dog’s neurological and physical matrix that finds expression as a result of environmental change (people, animal, physical context or situations), is its temperament. This view of temperament is objective in its definition, and clear in its physical expression, and for this reason will form the platform of our subsequent discussion.

Temperament is divided into two broad categories: Sound Temperament and Unsound Temperament.

Sound Temperament 

The dog with a Sound Temperament is confident and self assertive. He is sure of himself and investigates what he is unsure of. He handles his environment with confidence and without fear. His approach to life and his environment is curious, assertive and investigative. If startled or frightened, he recovers quickly from his fright. 

This wonderful ideal is not without its concerns. This dog makes an excellent pet and worker, when under control, trained or managed by a handler who is a secure pack leader. However if uncontrolled his self-assertiveness could lead to significant management problems. Nonetheless the mental balance of this kind of dog makes him a joy to own, and more persons need to learn to learn the skill to manage this exemplary canine. Having said this, it is clear that an older couple seeking a companion may be better served with a more submissive animal.

Unsound Temperament 

The dog of Unsound Temperament does not display the above calm, confident, self assertive, non-fearful behaviour. There is a range of behaviours considered to be unsound, but the following list can be taken as a complete or almost complete list of the variations: Sharp, Shy, Sharp-Shy, Submissive, Temperamental, Hyperactive, and Overaggressive.

Sharp Temperament 

A dog with a sharp temperament reacts (immediately) to individual environmental stimuli without thought. The dog does not consider consequences. It may jump sideways and run far away if startled by a slamming door, very reluctant to return, if at all. The sharp dog recovers, but slowly. The sharp dog may fearfully bark forever at the play of shadow across a doorway, or the light pattering of a small branch on the roof. If the stimulus is innocent and continuous, the sharp dog does not settle down and accept its innocence. It continues to react without thought. It will not investigate. 

This dog may seem at first to be an excellent alarm dog, but extreme sharpness, coupled often with a lack of confidence, could make it a perpetual nuisance to neighbours and household members. 

Shy Temperament 

The shy dog is afraid of unfamiliar people, places and things. He is sensitive to noise and movement, and does not take initiative. The shyer the dog is, the greater will be the amount of fear displayed. This genetic/temperamental shyness cannot be cured. 

Shyness may also be caused by improper environmental socialization or people experiences. This shyness may be reversed to some extent by proper handling and training, but avoiding such an outcome right from the start is preferred. Shyness must not be confused with submissiveness.

Sharp-Shy Temperament 

The Sharp-Shy dog displays aggression based on fear; he is the classic “fear-biter.” Being sharp, he responds without thinking, and being shy, he is fearful. This combination produces a dog that bites at any unfamiliarity without thinking. Fear is a normal reaction in a normal dog to a perceived threat, but when the threat is over, the dog should recover quickly. The sharp-shy dog recovers slowly; its fear may even paralyse it, and it may bite if touched. It may be taught to adjust in a particular environment or situation, but when that situation changes, it will react again in fear and the behavioural cycle starts over again. The Sharp-shy dog can never be fixed. 

Submissive Temperament

The submissive dog readily surrenders authority and control to it leader; in other words, he easily accepts human leadership. He tends to be meek and mild and non-threatening. He has no desire to be in charge, and readily does what is asked. This kind of dog makes an excellent pet and companion for most first time dog owners and the average family. The temperamentally submissive dog may be, but is not necessarily, a “wimp.” 

Submissiveness is also a trait that may be produced environmentally, by abuse. This should not be confused with the genetic submissive temperament. 

Temperamental

A dog with this temperament suffers from failure of its central nervous system. New environmental stimuli so overwhelm this dog that it may shake uncontrollably or roll over. The temperamental dog will empty its bladder and bowels seemingly unaware, in unfamiliar or stressful situations. This dog is not just afraid - it cannot cope - with the stress. Its nervous system is so overwhelmed that the dog loses control of its body and bodily functions. 

The temperamental dog is not usually aggressive, but it is important to remember that there is a lot of fear in this dog, and the fearful dog may respond by biting. 

This trait is one step down from submissive, and cannot be fixed. 

What type of companionship can this dog provide? He may not be suitable for most homes but may be looked after by someone who feels generally compelled to offer and provide perpetual psychological coddling to this kind of dog. This dog is not recommended. 

Hyperactive Temperament

The hyperactive dog is constantly moving, and generally moving fast. He constantly wants to move by running and jumping. If confined, he will pace incessantly and leap at walls, walk in circles or wag the tail non-stop. This hyperactivity is not normal but is the result of a metabolic malfunction (of the brain) that controls the body’s activity. 

This dog could be thoroughly destructive if kept in a confined apartment or small space. 

In some cases it may be difficult to separate temperamental hyperactivity from normal high energy in some dogs. 

Overaggressive Temperament

The overaggressive dog reacts with more aggression than the situation suggests. This extreme behaviour is often directed toward the handler and is usually in protest for having been asked to do something the dog does not want to do. This dog does not turn off easily; he will come after you and hurt you. It does not accept human leadership. 

An overaggressive dog should never be placed in a pet or companion situation. In fact if he is not in the hands of a professional handler, he should be put down. 

Before ending this topic two other temperamental traits require our attention. They originate in the self-assertiveness of the dog (Sound Temperament) but may actually be looked upon as temperamental classes in their own right. These are the traits of Dominance and Independence in dogs. 

Dominance

The dominant dog strives to achieve pack leadership. The more dominant he is, the less likely he is to accept human leadership and training. He is confrontational. Such a dog requires a skilled handler who can maintain pack leadership at all times. 

Independence

This dog does not want guidance or affection from other dogs or humans. He does not encourage companionship; he cares nothing for praise or pleasing his handler. The independent dog keeps his own company, is self directed and self reliant; he is not affectionate. 

Clearly, the independent dog would not make a good companion, and may function best as an out door “yard” dog. 

A dog with significant dominance and independence traits together, is just a slide away from being over aggressive. 

Even though critical periods, socialization and training may affect the temperament of a dog, they will never eliminate any of its effects.


_
Text by Radcliffe Robins_


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## Rik Wolterbeek (Jul 19, 2009)

Jody Butler said:


> Either its a nerve bag now, or once you send it down the road, your perfect superstar in the waiting....I'd give it to 12-14 months before you wash the dog out period.


Amen to that


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Quick note to all: Please give credit when posting copied text. Thanks.


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## Chris Jones II (Mar 20, 2011)

James Downey said:


> Marta,
> 
> First off, This is annoying. Second, I say stop having people give her food...I get the idea of associating people with good things, like food. exhasterbate theproblem when it's done without being able to read the dog or mis-reading them. The end result is a pup forced into a stressful situation beyond it's emotional capablity. also the pass the pup game only seemed to achieve forcing a kid who's afraid of the dark to go into dark room if get what I mean. I think a lot people talk about how a good puppy is one who has brass balls and shows the charcteristics of a warrior. For me not only is it unfair, it's unrealistic. They are puppies. Just as a child does not hold the nerve a grown up does.
> 
> ...


This post should be carved into stone tablets.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Quick note to all: Please give credit when posting copied text. Thanks.


Thanks for adding the credits Connie. I found it an interesting read but had no idea where it came from. Now I do. :grin: The piece just seems to fit so many discussions of this nature.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Thanks for adding the credits Connie. I found it an interesting read but had no idea where it came from. Now I do. :grin: The piece just seems to fit so many discussions of this nature.


I do not like the definition in that text that is given to sharpness, otherwise it is a good read...sharpness in my mind has nothing to do with fear or nerves. but that is just me...


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Joby Becker said:


> I do not like the definition in that text that is given to sharpness, otherwise it is a good read ...



Something I had some issues with, but I'm not great with these terms and I thought maybe it was verbiage. "Sharp" seems to be one of those words that have as many definitions as there are people saying the word. As Joby says, it's probably just me .... or maybe "sharp" is one of those descriptions that would benefit from a discussion.

I carried it to its own thread .... http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f30/defining-sharp-21287/#post290293 in case anyone else is 
interested ...


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

I agree with the people that say quit forcing the issue. I've seen pups like this who's owners didn't try to make them social, simply took them lots of places, but focused on the dog interacting with them, not others, made them neutral to the people around them, and the dogs matured into dogs that many people admire for their accomplishments, toughness, etc. In some of the cases the dogs actually did become more social with maturity and confidence, in others they are just dogs strangers don't touch.

And I've seen, and raised 1, dogs like this who the owner, me included, tried to socialize with the treats, tried to make them interact with the people around them, and the dogs basically fell apart and acted like this pup is, even when working worrying about the people around it. Because their experience tells them that at some point you may make them interact with that person, and they don't want to.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> I agree with the people that say quit forcing the issue. I've seen pups like this who's owners didn't try to make them social, simply took them lots of places, but focused on the dog interacting with them, not others, made them neutral to the people around them, and the dogs matured into dogs that many people admire for their accomplishments, toughness, etc. In some of the cases the dogs actually did become more social with maturity and confidence, in others they are just dogs strangers don't touch.
> 
> And I've seen, and raised 1, dogs like this who the owner, me included, tried to socialize with the treats, tried to make them interact with the people around them, and the dogs basically fell apart and acted like this pup is, even when working worrying about the people around it. Because their experience tells them that at some point you may make them interact with that person, and they don't want to.


Absolutley.


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## jeff gamber (Feb 15, 2010)

I actually prefer a dog that is neutral to strangers. This dog may not thrive in all applications, but it is a charachteristic I like to see in my dogs...


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## Martin Koops (Oct 15, 2009)

Alice Bezemer said:


> now i havent read the whole thing here but im thinking that maybe Marta needs to stop forcing the issue?
> 
> from what I read from your statement about the dog you are trying everything to get her no to clam up or to make her feel more secure...basicly you have thrown everything at her except the kitchensink!
> 
> stop trying so hard! your trying might be the whole issue here....keep in mind that your mental state of mind is not that hard for her to read...dogs tend to notice what we try to hide...leave her be...if she happens to do something right then dont go all out in praise and toys and treats...let her figure it out for herself....my feeling is she is being pushed to hard and thats causing the behaviour....then again I might be wrong


Good point, dogs often react more to the owners state of mind than the outside stimulus.
Just like we try to read our dogs our dogs are reading us.

This may or may not be the problem but it's definitely something to consider.


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> I agree with the people that say quit forcing the issue. I've seen pups like this who's owners didn't try to make them social, simply took them lots of places, but focused on the dog interacting with them, not others, made them neutral to the people around them, and the dogs matured into dogs that many people admire for their accomplishments, toughness, etc. In some of the cases the dogs actually did become more social with maturity and confidence, in others they are just dogs strangers don't touch.
> 
> And I've seen, and raised 1, dogs like this who the owner, me included, tried to socialize with the treats, tried to make them interact with the people around them, and the dogs basically fell apart and acted like this pup is, even when working worrying about the people around it. Because their experience tells them that at some point you may make them interact with that person, and they don't want to.


With my dog , I never expected her to actively socialise with people or other dogs but I wanted her to be able to acknowldege and ignore them. Using treats does not have to be about socialising them directly with people it is about helping them associate a pleasant experience with their stressors being around in the environment. Same with teaching them default behaviours. I took my dog to many places and only expected her to work with me in that environment. 

It worked well to a certain point, but it was the unexpected event that would often trigger a response and her recovery rate was a lot slower than any of my other dogs. This had nothing to do with her being worried about having to interact with people at some point or reflecting my state of mind . It was simply her temperament. Her reactions to many things were completely different to that of my other dogs, she would often surprise the hell out of them too. You could see them wondering what the heck all the commotion was about and even when they didnt react it didnt seem to influence her, she seemed almost to be in her own zone where it was very hard to reach.


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

Thanks for the thread Marta. My new foster pup seems to be very people shy at the moment and I wasn't really sure what to do about it. For now all I've done is let him settle in with me, but he's going to need to be social enough to be a pet so he can be adopted, hopefully soon.


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## Jeanne Meldrim (Mar 27, 2008)

I don't force the issue either with my dog Milo. (you may remember he is the big GSD that played ball with your puppy at one of the seminars in CT) If we are out and someone wants to pet him, I tell them to call him to them. If Milo goes to them fine, if he doesn't, then they can't pet him. When people come to the house, I hold Milo when they come in and let the other two dogs greet the visitor. Milo sees that they are enjoying interacting with the new person and usually then wants to join in. So, basically, I leave it all up to him.


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## Marta Wajngarten (Jul 30, 2006)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> I agree with the people that say quit forcing the issue. I've seen pups like this who's owners didn't try to make them social, simply took them lots of places, but focused on the dog interacting with them, not others, made them neutral to the people around them, and the dogs matured into dogs that many people admire for their accomplishments, toughness, etc. In some of the cases the dogs actually did become more social with maturity and confidence, in others they are just dogs strangers don't touch.
> 
> And I've seen, and raised 1, dogs like this who the owner, me included, tried to socialize with the treats, tried to make them interact with the people around them, and the dogs basically fell apart and acted like this pup is, even when working worrying about the people around it. Because their experience tells them that at some point you may make them interact with that person, and they don't want to.


I prefer dogs that are neutral to strangers and prefer to interact with me. And she is like that to an extent, but just falls apart when some one makes eye contact and tries to interact, and by that I don't mean they reach down and try to pet her, they just look at her and say hi doggy and she explodes and reacts. It can be 10' away or 2' away so there isn't that physical boundary some have mentioned, the only commonality is eye contact and engagement, but that doesn't apply when she's on the field working (although while the decoys engage her they don't make silly talk with her so that could be the difference). If I wanted a golden that's what I would have gotten, I certainly don't expect her to love all strangers and I do like that but I want her to get over this unreasonable fear. I was prepared for a dog that may not like strangers but I wasn't expecting a dog that is terrified of them. I don't subject her to every one getting in her face, I pick and choose who I think are stable strangers hoping she would have been able to make some sort of a positive association with the food which she loves and will take. This approach did work for getting her over her fear of certain sounds and strange objects, but I realize those are much more controllable and stable then the variety of strangers so not quite the same comparison. Obviously that hasn't been working and I can see there hasn't been real progress, I feel like I'm trying to teach a JRT to give kisses to the rat. So we will change our feeble ways.


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## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

One thing is for sure, you can't change temperament. Best thing for a dog is for the handler to read temperament (or have it read by someone who can) and prepare a plan accordingly. No amount of desensitization, treats and all that stuff will make a dog change/morph into something it is not.


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

M. Agreeing with kadi and the rest. She's a non social dog by nature, forcing her to interact will cause conflict in her with behavior you describe. By forcing her to interact you basicaly will take away a part of her character, do it long enough and she's ruined. 
Actually like you bescribe now, i' ll say she already is. Not the first, i' m afraid, cuase behavior wasnt understood. 
Some people just wont listen to the breeder, i know from own experience, who told how to handle a dog like this and still forced puppy to act social.
Sigh


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

If the dog is just not wanting to play with strangers i think that's fine, some good working dogs are just like that (Martine Loots likes it this way if i remember correctly0 but on the other hand i think fear is something you can only mask a little.
I tried to do IPO with a very hard hitting dutch malinois, the dog refused to bite because it had never seen a black decoy#-o
I don't mind females that are 'too' friendly and will allow everybody to pet them, as long as they have the proper drives for work. There are patrol dogs that allow little kids to 'harass' them and they are not weak dogs.
In conclusion i would say if your goal is sport, i think with patience you can get her to overcome some issues but i don't think it is a breeding quality animal.....JMO.


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

Faisal Khan said:


> One thing is for sure, you can't change temperament. Best thing for a dog is for the handler to read temperament (or have it read by someone who can) and prepare a plan accordingly. No amount of desensitization, treats and all that stuff will make a dog change/morph into something it is not.


=D>


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## Marta Wajngarten (Jul 30, 2006)

Oluwatobi Odunuga said:


> If the dog is just not wanting to play with strangers i think that's fine



I think a few of you are completely misunderstanding what I am trying to do. I don't want her to play with strangers. I want her to stand there and be able to ignore them while they talk to her and not freak out like they're going to kill her because they said hi. I just want her to accept the existence of strangers, not become who she is not and love them.


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## Zakia Days (Mar 13, 2009)

Marta Haus said:


> I think a few of you are completely misunderstanding what I am trying to do. I don't want her to play with strangers. I want her to stand there and be able to ignore them while they talk to her and not freak out like they're going to kill her because they said hi. I just want her to accept the existence of strangers, not become who she is not and love them.


Hey Marta,

I think I understand what you're saying. I do understand that you're not trying to have the dog be so social as to solicit attention from everyone, but that you just want her to relax in a sit or down while you interact w/ people. I had to curb my pups "socialization" greatly because he would look for people to make eye contact w/ him and then take it as a challenge. Sometimes I think he did it purposefully. Or people would "cat call" and try and solicit him for affection. Either way that would result in a very forward aggressive behavior w/ growling and lunging to bite. My female when she was younger was similar. She would not allow cat calling and petting. I agree w/ the posts that suggest patience. For 3yrs I took my female w/ me everywhere (train station, busy streets, parks, stores, etc.). Not for training really, but just because that's what I do w/ my dogs. As she matured she became much more tolerant of people. These days if its not night time and she's in a good mood she can be pet by strangers (she will not accept the "cat calling" though. that'll get you bitten.). My pup has gotten better. He will pretty much walk by people w/o trying to eye f*^k them or challenge them. With time I expect that he will become more patient and tolerant. All that to say those 3 things: time, maturity, consistency w/ training should work out well for you. Also, you have to be mindful of how things are introduced to pups. If having people approach and talk to you and then saying "hi" to the dog unnerves her, then stop allowing people to do that. At the start of the conversation ask them, "please do not address (speak to, play with, look at) the dog. She's being trained and I don't want to disrupt her training." Keep your encounters* brief*, and stress, "Absolutely, no eye contact (especially if its a non-dog person) please." If people are unwilling then leave. You keeping shoving her into a situation she's nervous about, allowing her to become nervous and uncontrolled and then leaving the session w/ the issue unresolved. Let her mature a bit longer. Like I said it took my dog 3yrs. Sometimes it takes longer. Good luck w/ her.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

aside from the social aspects...what about the other utterly fearful stuff?


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

I'd like to see a video of this young dog in the situations described.


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Marta Haus said:


> I think a few of you are completely misunderstanding what I am trying to do. I don't want her to play with strangers. I want her to stand there and be able to ignore them while they talk to her and not freak out like they're going to kill her because they said hi. I just want her to accept the existence of strangers, not become who she is not and love them.


 
Yes that is what I aimed for with my fearful cattle dog. I just worked hard with her always at a distance where she wasnt reacting, set up people who followed instructions and were dog savvy to be at a distance and eventually getting closer and closer over time. Reinforced and rewarded her for acknowledging them and then look at me, practiced her obedience skills, took her to dog club when there was new intake of dogs and people and worked around the edges always below threshold. I always quit on a good note and watched her body language carefully, she would start to tongue flick and yawn and her eyes would change if I pushed her too far.

We did eventaully achieve my aim and she could relax to a degree while talking to a complete stranger. I found it difficult to completely proof her against the unexpected but that may have come with time. 

Her temperament was I believe never going to allow her to be like my other dogs. She was a complete basket case initially but we made huge strides, but it was hard work, no denying that, and I had to work on it everyday. She had a double problem where she reacted to both strang people and dogs so it was extra hard work.


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## Ricky Mav (Jul 28, 2011)

James Downey said:


> Marta,
> 
> First off, This is annoying. Second, I say stop having people give her food...I get the idea of associating people with good things, like food. exhasterbate theproblem when it's done without being able to read the dog or mis-reading them. The end result is a pup forced into a stressful situation beyond it's emotional capablity. also the pass the pup game only seemed to achieve forcing a kid who's afraid of the dark to go into dark room if get what I mean. I think a lot people talk about how a good puppy is one who has brass balls and shows the charcteristics of a warrior. For me not only is it unfair, it's unrealistic. They are puppies. Just as a child does not hold the nerve a grown up does.
> 
> ...


Excellent points and advice.


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## Ricky Mav (Jul 28, 2011)

Faisal Khan said:


> One thing is for sure, you can't change temperament. Best thing for a dog is for the handler to read temperament (or have it read by someone who can) and prepare a plan accordingly. No amount of desensitization, treats and all that stuff will make a dog change/morph into something it is not.


Good points, I think that good absolute obedience and focus on the handler is key with these types of dogs. In my opinion bite work should be a secondary consideration. I'd work on obedience, socialization (exposure to various environments and people), playing fetch, and agility. If the owners is still insistent on doing bite work, I'd concentrate on the prey aspect of it and a LOT of confidence building.


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## jeff gamber (Feb 15, 2010)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> M. Agreeing with kadi and the rest. She's a non social dog by nature, forcing her to interact will cause conflict in her with behavior you describe. By forcing her to interact you basicaly will take away a part of her character, do it long enough and she's ruined.
> Actually like you bescribe now, i' ll say she already is. Not the first, i' m afraid, cuase behavior wasnt understood.
> Some people just wont listen to the breeder, i know from own experience, who told how to handle a dog like this and still forced puppy to act social.
> Sigh


I keep re-reading this post and of others like Connies, kadi's, and Jody's and they can't be anymore accurate. 

This post just needs to be singled out to theirs and a few other contributing posts from other members...


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

jeff gamber said:


> I keep re-reading this post and of others like Connies, kadi's, and Jody's and they can't be anymore accurate.
> 
> This post just needs to be singled out to theirs and a few other contributing posts from other members...



I deleted mine because those guys said it well, and I realized it was in a working dog thread. 

I enjoy this kind of work and have done a pretty good amount of it, but with foster dogs (and a couple I kept as well).

Kadi said:
_I agree with the people that say quit forcing the issue. I've seen pups like this who's owners didn't try to make them social, simply took them lots of places, but focused on the dog interacting with them, not others, made them neutral to the people around them, and the dogs matured into dogs that many people admire for their accomplishments, toughness, etc. In some of the cases the dogs actually did become more social with maturity and confidence, in others they are just dogs strangers don't touch.
_
Sara said:
_With my dog , I never expected her to actively socialise with people or other dogs but I wanted her to be able to acknowldege and ignore them. Using treats does not have to be about socialising them directly with people it is about helping them associate a pleasant experience with their stressors being around in the environment. Same with teaching them default behaviours. I took my dog to many places and only expected her to work with me in that environment. 
_


I do marker work with the dog outside the edge of the reactive range. I want the dog to experience the pleasure of food and also the confidence of being worked and getting rewards within general range (but not reactive range) of the trigger(s).

Neutral (or tolerant) -- that's all I want. What Sara describes can go a long way toward that.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Marta Haus said:


> I think a few of you are completely misunderstanding what I am trying to do. I don't want her to play with strangers. I want her to stand there and be able to ignore them *while they talk to her*


This is the one thing I would be doing differently, I would not have them talk to her, but completely ignore her.

If they are focusing on her, then she's feeling the pressure from them, which is going to make it harder for her to ignore them, and learn to become comfortable around them.


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## Ricky Mav (Jul 28, 2011)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> This is the one thing I would be doing differently, *I would not have them talk to her, but completely ignore her.
> 
> If they are focusing on her, then she's feeling the pressure from them, which is going to make it harder for her to ignore them, and learn to become comfortable around them.*


Excellent points. We just rescued/adopted a dog 3 weeks ago, the previous owner stated that he was being trained as a scent detection dog for a PD. When we first met him, he jumped out of the owners truck and trotted away with the owner trying to call him back. The owner said he was social.................he's not, he was afraid of men. The owner said he was fine in a vehicle..............he wasn't. The owner said that they used an E-collar on him................I think they used it incorrectly, I also think that they improperly used a prong collar on him as well, due to his initial aversion to it. When I lifted my tennis racket up he shrunk away as if dodging it, when they veterinarian's assistant lifted up her clip board he did the same. When walking down the street, passing cars kind of freaked him out, now he's normal with it and kind of acknowledges them and ignores them in a normal manner.After 2.5 weeks, he's going up to all strangers, after a 22 hour round trip to the mountains of North Georgia and visiting my in-laws with multiple children(whom he took to right away) and male visitors, he now approaches strange males on our walk. He's sitting calmly in our truck in that picture on my avatar. He's doing a better recall in the house and on a long line. His temperament is better when wearing the prong collar, I initially connected the leash to the flat collar and not the prong collar, when I initially connected the leash to the prong collar, he shrunk away, now he's better with it after 2 days because he knows that I am not going to abuse him with it. Now he wants to chase the tennis racket when I practice my strokes and he's getting better with other foreign objects above his head. 

Sorry for the rant, but in short we got a basket case that was abused (in my opinion) by at least one owner if not two. I'm not sure if it's genetics, abuse, bad upbringing, or all three. He does recover quickly and he does seem to conquer his "demons" so far. Right now I am working on socialization, building up his prey drive, and forming more of a bond with him and work on obedience. He's allegedly two years old right now, but i think he's younger. He's a Malinois, allegedly from Dutch lines. Our last Malinois passed away 6/24/11 and my wife (and I) wanted to fill the void ASAP and we adopted this dog. The previous owner was READY to give the dog away that day, so we took him. He's not our first Malinois, after owning four at one time, this "should' be easy, but my other boys were stable and had excellent drives.


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Ricky Mav said:


> Excellent points. We just rescued/adopted a dog 3 weeks ago, the previous owner stated that he was being trained as a scent detection dog for a PD. When we first met him, he jumped out of the owners truck and trotted away with the owner trying to call him back. The owner said he was social.................he's not, he was afraid of men. The owner said he was fine in a vehicle..............he wasn't. The owner said that they used an E-collar on him................I think they used it incorrectly, I also think that they improperly used a prong collar on him as well, due to his initial aversion to it. When I lifted my tennis racket up he shrunk away as if dodging it, when they veterinarian's assistant lifted up her clip board he did the same. When walking down the street, passing cars kind of freaked him out, now he's normal with it and kind of acknowledges them and ignores them in a normal manner.After 2.5 weeks, he's going up to all strangers, after a 22 hour round trip to the mountains of North Georgia and visiting my in-laws with multiple children(whom he took to right away) and male visitors, he now approaches strange males on our walk. He's sitting calmly in our truck in that picture on my avatar. He's doing a better recall in the house and on a long line. His temperament is better when wearing the prong collar, I initially connected the leash to the flat collar and not the prong collar, when I initially connected the leash to the prong collar, he shrunk away, now he's better with it after 2 days because he knows that I am not going to abuse him with it. Now he wants to chase the tennis racket when I practice my strokes and he's getting better with other foreign objects above his head.
> 
> Sorry for the rant, but in short we got a basket case that was abused (in my opinion) by at least one owner if not two. I'm not sure if it's genetics, abuse, bad upbringing, or all three. He does recover quickly and he does seem to conquer his "demons" so far. Right now I am working on socialization, building up his prey drive, and forming more of a bond with him and work on obedience. He's allegedly two years old right now, but i think he's younger. He's a Malinois, allegedly from Dutch lines. Our last Malinois passed away 6/24/11 and my wife (and I) wanted to fill the void ASAP and we adopted this dog. The previous owner was READY to give the dog away that day, so we took him. He's not our first Malinois, after owning four at one time, this "should' be easy, but my other boys were stable and had excellent drives.


Rick I could easily be wrong having not seen your dog but from what I'm reading and on how quickly he recovered this could easily be what we call "kennel shock" it basically exhaustion . 

We get new dogs in all the time . Having been on long flights and moved around from place to place before they come to use they get very little time to get accustomed to their surroundings and relax . A small number will just get exhausted like this .

We can get a new PSD prospect in that was described as very strong but when we take them out of the crate they are meak and timid and react to things much the same way you described . After a couple of days some of them you can see actually shaking . They look miserable . When I first started training I would see these dogs and think this is a clunker . But we would give the dogs a few days to a week before testing them and they were an entirely different dog and some might get strong in the week or 2 to come . That's another reason we try to issue our dogs to new handlers weeks ahead of time before starting training . Not only to bond with the handler . Of the dogs I've seen it could easily be attributed to abuse by some but seeing such quick recovers and such different change in personality from meak to strong I see those as exhaustion because we did nothing with them to help them get over that weak behavior other then time .


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## Ricky Mav (Jul 28, 2011)

Jim Nash said:


> Rick I could easily be wrong having not seen your dog but from what I'm reading and on how quickly he recovered this could easily be what we call "kennel shock" it basically exhaustion .
> 
> We get new dogs in all the time . Having been on long flights and moved around from place to place before they come to use they get very little time to get accustomed to their surroundings and relax . A small number will just get exhausted like this .
> 
> We can get a new PSD prospect in that was described as very strong but when we take them out of the crate they are meak and timid and react to things much the same way you described . After a couple of days some of them you can see actually shaking . They look miserable . When I first started training I would see these dogs and think this is a clunker . But we would give the dogs a few days to a week before testing them and they were an entirely different dog and some might get strong in the week or 2 to come . That's another reason we try to issue our dogs to new handlers weeks ahead of time before starting training . Not only to bond with the handler . Of the dogs I've seen it could easily be attributed to abuse by some but seeing such quick recovers and such different change in personality from meak to strong I see those as exhaustion because we did nothing with them to help them get over that weak behavior other then time .


Thank you for your insight Jim. He DOES sleep a lot. The previous owner "said' that she owned him for 8 months and that she got him from a PO who said that he "washed out" from their training program. Your description IS giving me a lot of hope. I'm just not sure what is true or not true coming from the previous owner. I will say that he does "light up" when he sees the strobes from a patrol car, but for now I am just attributing it to him being so keen. God knows where he's been and what he's gone through, I will say that he's finally making eye contact with me outside when we take walks and of course much more inside. 

I will say that when we took him with us to Georgia last week he was full of drive and was dealing with four other dogs and multiple family members visiting the house. He even lit up on one of the males visiting, but then was able to approach the guy without fear or aggression. Now, back home he is back to his lazy self.


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

I have a rescue that was extremely timid, fearful and all these things that noone would even look at him as a prospect, but over a period of several months or so he morphed into a stable dog that I now do agility with and is social in public. His problem stemmed from his previous homes being a high energy working bred dog in suburbia in the hands of an aggressive man. He can still be easily upset but he recovers very quickly.

He was quite different from my genetically fearfull dog that I cant really even compare them. There was nothing calm about her at all, she took hours to recover from any upset and she was ultra high energy like nothing I have ever experienced before. The only time she was truly calm was when she was lying close to me at home and everything was quiet and she felt safe from the world. But we did make headway with her so all is not lost if you are prepared to work, persevere and not expect miracles but accept the dog for what it is.


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## Ricky Mav (Jul 28, 2011)

Sara Waters said:


> I have a rescue that was extremely timid, fearful and all these things that noone would even look at him as a prospect, but over a period of several months or so he morphed into a stable dog that I now do agility with and is social in public. His problem stemmed from his previous homes being a high energy working bred dog in suburbia in the hands of an aggressive man. He can still be easily upset but he recovers very quickly.
> 
> He was quite different from my genetically fearfull dog that I cant really even compare them. There was nothing calm about her at all, she took hours to recover from any upset and she was ultra high energy like nothing I have ever experienced before. The only time she was truly calm was when she was lying close to me at home and everything was quiet and she felt safe from the world. *But we did make headway with her so all is not lost if you are prepared to work, persevere and not expect miracles but accept the dog for what it is*.


That's what we are prepared to do, my wife is in LOVE with him, admittedly so am I.








Though his whining is starting to get to me! It's not constant, it's not always because he wants to go out or eat. It happens sporadically and especially when he wants to go out in the morning. The problem is, is that he's whining now, I'm like: I fed you, trained/exercised you, pet you, you have water, took you to go to the bathroom,. now what do you want??!!! LOL


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Ricky Mav said:


> That's what we are prepared to do, my wife is in LOVE with him, admittedly so am I.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes my rescue whined in his crate in the early morning to go out, always about 5.50 am. I must say I got fed up as all my other dogs were still asleep . I finally determined that he wasnt desperate to do his stuff because as soon as I let him out he was eager to come straight back inside, so I started ignoring him. He hasnt whined now for quite awhile.

If he is whining for no good reason I settle him in his crate and he usually chills out, or I put him outside. So either he settles or out he goes LOL. He knows the deal these days and usually settles without whining. Otherwise they got you at their beck and call and they will exploit it especially if they are feeling a little insecure. LOL.


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## Mike Jones (Jan 22, 2009)

I read this entire thread and there was some interesting points made by many and by others a bit off base. One thing thing I learned from an old Schutzhund guy name Bob Monday is you must understand animal behavior and how to home and build to your dog or bitches strengths and minimize their weakness. All canines have weaknesses.

Bitches in general are defensive by nature. God created them that way because there primary focus is to protect their young. Knowing this there are certain behaviors that bitches display more readily and most bitches have stronger defense drive than males and aren't a prey driven as males. The fact that your bitch will bite with confidence and take pressure is a good sign.

Males are more offensive, they mark off territory and take over other packs or prides. 

Yes, there are some bitches that have high offensive and high prey drive but it is not the norm. The difficulty in finding a good bitch is finding one with more balanced drives. This also means finding a bitch that acts outside her nature. 

As far as your pup goes be aware that different dogs even in the same litter will mature at different rates. Often you will not know what you really have until your pup reaches 2 years old. There are dogs that at 1 year barely bit the sleeve or showed any drive to do the work and at 2 years old they turned out to be top working dogs. There's a GSD at our Schutzhund club that had no ball drive until he reached 2 years old and now he's a working machine and social butterfly. 

You do have to be careful how you socialize your pup. Your pup must believe that you are the pack leader and that you will protect her from harm and when she matures she will return the favor. Many times pups act overly defensive and aggressive toward a perceived threat when they feel that their pack leader will not protect them. Sometimes this perceived aggressive behavior is brought about when the pup is put into survival mode and they have no confidence in their packs ability to protect them from harm.

Ed Farley wrote an ebook on how to socialize a puppy and he discussed in detail what happens when you allow others to feed your dog and how you establish a pup's confidence in your leadership abilities.

http://leerburg.com/pdf/socializepuppies.pdf


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Mike Jones said:


> I read this entire thread and there was some interesting points made by many and by others a bit off base. One thing thing I learned from an old Schutzhund guy name Bob Monday is you must understand animal behavior and how to home and build to your dog or bitches strengths and minimize their weakness. All canines have weaknesses.
> 
> Bitches in general are defensive by nature. God created them that way because there primary focus is to protect their young. Knowing this there are certain behaviors that bitches display more readily and most bitches have stronger defense drive than males and aren't a prey driven as males. The fact that your bitch will bite with confidence and take pressure is a good sign.
> 
> ...


I am not sure I entirely agree that females often doesnt have a high prey drive, especially as not only do they have to defend their young but they also have to feed them as do many females of various species in the wild who also have to teach their offspring to hunt, many of them are superb hunters, eating is a basic need. 

However we as humans have manipulated a lot of this and it obviously may not be the same in all breeds. Having had many cattle dog bitches that have been purpose bred to deal with aggressive cattle or hunt pigs, they have all had pretty high prey drives. My current one I wont let near my sheep or she would nail them and this is not uncommon in cattle dogs of either sex when presented with sheep. My family also had hunting whippets and some of the females were our best hunters when it came to rabbits. They were smart, strategic and incredibly focussed.

I also believe that genetics has a big part to play in temperament and that socialising and being a strong leader so to speak is not always the complete answer. From my experience with my fearful dog, she was completely diffferent to all the other dogs I have ever owned and I believe it had very little to do with me. Her prey drive was off the scale and was incredibly driven by toys of any description and was completely confident and with all that and she would have a go with anything.

But she was also very reactive to strange humans and dogs and would chase off strange dogs regardless of their size with machine like determination. I most definitely had to work differently with her and none of my other dogs of either sex have ever come close to the way she was.


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## Jeff Wilkins (Jun 5, 2011)

Marta,

I want to thank you for posting this thread. It sounded almost exactly like you were describing my dog. It totally resonated and I got a lot of good advice via your post. Thanks!

I haven't sorted out all my dogs issues and don't want to pretend to be an expert, but there are 2 things I've found have helped:

1. Turn every place into a play-place. I started with a very coercive method of flooding him and saying "you better focus on me or you'll get popped on the lead," but that just made Cash hate the environment. In retrospect its obvious that if he gets a lot of pops on the leash there, then he's not going to like it.

These days if I want to get him friendly in a new environment, I take him there and just play with him. After playing fetch or whatever with him in the unfamiliar environment, he doesn't get all freaked out by people when they approach. 

The other posters are right, of course: don't ever think you can control people. I recently took my dog to a ultimate frisbee competition. Even though I told everyone beforehand that that my dog bites, stupid people still thought they were the dog whisperer and tried to pet him, of course, leading him to go psycho and try to kill them. One ja****s approached Cash, and even though I was waving him off from 20 feet away telling him the dog bites. Still he kept coming while Cash was going berserk trying to lung at him and rip out his jugular. Good thing he was wearing the prong and a backup choke collar, and I brought my toughest lead. Only at the very last minute did the dum***s. Decide not to get bit today and turned away while mumbling something about the dog not being social. I'll never understand people. 

(People these days seem to have no sense of self-preservation. When I was a kid I was taught to ask the owner if the dog bites before petting it. I'm rarely asked, and even after people do ask, they don't usually listen to the answer.) 

(My neighbor was in my house the other day and Cash was being pretty cool. He should since he's known the neighbor since he was a pup. One time he kinda growled at her. So what does she do? She starts trying to pet the top of his head! While he's growling! I'll never understand people. Did I already say that?)

After the frisbee competition I and my friend, who my dog had never met, took Cash off and played frisbee-fetch with him. After that Cash, acted like my friend was an old friend of his and would walk next to her, etc. Because my friend (who knows nothing about dogs) was able to interact with Cash, everyone stared calling her the dog whisperer, since she was the only one who was able to interact with Cash. Really, she just knew how to throw a frisbee.

A bit long winded, my apologies, but my point is that food-treats only go so far but making the environment a fun, happy, play place instead of training-ground makes the dog loosen up. I should have shown up earlier so my friend could have played fetch with Cash *before* interacting with the rest of the people there. I'm sure he would have have fewer outburst.

2. Have you ever tried doggy day-care? I was lucky enough to find a very nice day-care place with a large staff. I dropped of Cash half-expecting one of the staff to get bit, but no!, they call him "little lamb." 

Once in the waiting day care lobby, a new Shepherd was crowding me and Cash snarled at him, ever so lightly, which drew a big reaction from the staff: "Woh! Cash has balls. I've never seen him do that," they said. Something about me being there makes him more aggressive. Taking him to day-care a few times a week has shown a remarkable improvement in his social skills. He's learned both independence and trust of strangers. A lot of people have to handle him there and none of them hurt him. He's beginning to notice that.

Eventually I noticed a pattern: There's some places I know Cash will act aggressive and some places I know he won't. He's never acted aggressive with people at the dog park, day-care, anywhere I play fetch with him, etc. Try making every place a doggie-playground.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Jeff writes

I recently took my dog to a ultimate frisbee competition. Even though I told everyone beforehand that that my dog bites, stupid people still thought they were the dog whisperer and tried to pet him, of course, leading him to go psycho and try to kill them. One ja****s approached Cash, and even though I was waving him off from 20 feet away telling him the dog bites. Still he kept coming while Cash was going berserk trying to lung at him and rip out his jugular. Good thing he was wearing the prong and a backup choke collar, and I brought my toughest lead. Only at the very last minute did the dum***s. Decide not to get bit today and turned away while mumbling something about the dog not being social. I'll never understand people. 

>Jeff
>Either you are full of SHITE, the most irresponsible dog 
>owner on the WDF or a troll posting to get a reaction.
>People at a frisby competition have a reasonable expectation
>that some jack ass (YOU) wouldn't be bringing any dog
>with a propensity to bite under any circumstances!


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## Tammy St. Louis (Feb 17, 2010)

>>> I recently took my dog to a ultimate frisbee competition.
>>>Still he kept coming while Cash was going berserk trying to lung at him and rip out his jugular. Good thing he was wearing the prong and a backup choke collar, and I brought my toughest lead>>>>


maybe you should have had a muzzle on him also , taking a dog like this to a public event is kinda irresposible i would say , when you KNOW he is like this,..


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## Anna Kasho (Jan 16, 2008)

Thomas Barriano said:


> >Jeff
> >Either you are full of SHITE, the most irresponsible dog
> >owner on the WDF or a troll posting to get a reaction.
> >People at a frisby competition have a reasonable expectation
> ...


Agreed. It is extremely irresponsible, not to mention unfair to the fearful dog to put him in that situation. Why anyone would bring a dog they cannot control someplace that would endanger him and the general public, I'll never understand. 

Troll might be right, did you read some of Jeff's earlier posts about training this dog in schH??


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