# Bull terrier



## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

Never seen one do this. Must be a man made den. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_eCk3QPeMrU


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## Matthew Grubb (Nov 16, 2007)

What if the little guy gets stuck in there??? What do you do???


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

You dig them up with a shovel, pick ax and a whole host of tools. Usually they use terriers like JRT or Lakelands for example. Its a ancient form of hunting going back to the roman times.


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## Matthew Grubb (Nov 16, 2007)

Ben Thompson said:


> You dig them up with a shovel, pick ax and a whole host of tools. Usually they use terriers like JRT or Lakelands for example. Its a ancient form of hunting going back to the roman times.


I couldn't do that.... I'd have a heart attack worrying about the little guy when he disappeared. We had a Cairn once that tried gong down a hole after something... thank goodness for genetics those tails are great to grab onto!


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I did natural earth work with terriers for a number of yrs.

In the past the "old timers" used an iron rod similar to the way a machanic can use a metal rod to locate a noisy valve in a car.

Put the rod to the ground and your ear to the other end. They can pinpoint the barking. 

I've tried it just for $#!+s and grins and it does work.

Modern day terriermen/women use a ferret collar. it sens signals aprox 15 ft. The hunter walks in a circle around the entrance and gets wider till the receiver starts clicking. 

It can measure to the foot how deep[ the dog is.

I've dug to dog as deep as 6-7 ft and as far from the entrance hole as 30-40 ft. 

No natural earth in the States is large enough for even a Mini Bull Terrier to enter so I suspect that could be a washout of some sort. 

IMO the dog is being excited by the handler's encouragement. I don't see it actively working scent OR, quite possibly it is reluctant to enter the pitch black areas of the hole. That often separates the real dogs from the ones that don't have that senseless :lol: desire to dive into a spooky place like that. :grin: 

The silence of the dog is also why very few "old time" working terrier people used the BTs to cross with. They worked to quietly. They used the iron bar locating rod to listen for the baying in the ground.

Matt, the first time I had a dog go to ground I though my heart was coming out of my throat. :lol: 

I've actually cut down a tree that had a dog go up inside and get himself wedged in after a raccoon. 

The dog was just at 10 ft up so we cut the tree at 12 - 13ft. 

One of my hunting partners was a JRTCA Working Terrier Judge. If you wanted a working title on your dog in order to compete in the Bronze Medallion class at working terrier shows it had to be witnessed and recorded by a judge as having been dug to on at least three different quarry. 

I've helped dig to many, many terriers in addition to mine.

A few pages from the past.

http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f22/pete-221/index2.html

http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f22/look-close-223/

http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f22/pete-221/

http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f22/son-jeff-sidney-226/

http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f22/hey-old-man-222/

http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f22/borders-610/

Not earth dogs but an old pic of my GSDXDane cross with my two Kerrys and my brother Kerry. 

http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f22/thunder-1-rocky-missy-kevy-1490/


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

A lot of the barn hunting guys cross their terriers with bully breeds I've noticed. Like pit bulls...I don't know why but they do that. Maybe its a hybrid vigor thing.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Barn hunting is a different game. I've done it also and instead of digging it calls for moving lots of hay bales in order to get access to the raccoons. 

A bit larger dog has no problem. 

The raccoon can do a lot of damage to hay stored in barns. They crap all over the top bales/layers and that can cause a disease that affect horses. 

Winter is the time for barn hunting. Perfect wintering spot for the critters.

A group of us took 32 raccoons out of a large hay barn in one weekend.


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

Wow that's a lot of critters. Did you use lurchers also?


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## Noel Long (Mar 13, 2013)

I was hoping Bob would chime in. There is no evidence that BT was working anything.

The Terrierman is in my area, still hunting and digging to dogs in this day and age. It would be cool to meet him (so long as he doesn't shove his politics down my throat).


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## Catherine Gervin (Mar 12, 2012)

Bob Scott said:


> Barn hunting is a different game. I've done it also and instead of digging it calls for moving lots of hay bales in order to get access to the raccoons.
> 
> A bit larger dog has no problem.
> 
> ...


 i have nothing but respect and awe for those taking on raccoons--they are NASTY creatures. i saw a dog who lost an eye to one in my youth and it resonates with me even today. my APBT, when i had her, killed everything she could find and one of those was a baby raccoon, whilst on the back porch of my neighbor's house on Ohio State campus. it was a very noisy affair; i was swinging the leash and screaming at the deservedly-enraged mother raccoon to keep her at bay, and i was screaming at my dog, to no avail, while she crushed and thrashed the life out of the soccer-ball-sized kit and then the people who lived in the house opened their back door to see what the infant-like mewling and screeching and the human screaming and the unearthly roaring of the momma raccoon was all about...she lead her other two kits away very very reluctantly and i felt so sorry for that baby raccoon, just trying to fish out some garbage from the overflowing college garbage cans, minding its' own business and then WHAM, seized...for weeks afterwards my dog would haul over there to check out the porch and surrounding terrain, revisit her kill i guess...raccoons are tougher than they look, to be sure


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

Noel Long said:


> I was hoping Bob would chime in. There is no evidence that BT was working anything.
> 
> The Terrierman is in my area, still hunting and digging to dogs in this day and age. It would be cool to meet him (so long as he doesn't shove his politics down my throat).


Thanks for sharing.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Ben Thompson said:


> Wow that's a lot of critters. Did you use lurchers also?



I've never worked a Lurcher but I've watched them on a coyote hunt.

One dog and one bitch. 

When the hounds pushed the coyote into the open the Lurchers were let go. 

They made the coyote start looking for another gear...that he didn't have.

The coyote turned at the last min when he knew he wasn't going to out run the Lurcher. 

The dog Lurcher hit the coyote on a dead run and bowled it over. 

It never got to it's feet because the female had it by the back or the neck and finished it.


I haven't worked any terriers in the ground for just about 10 yrs now and my last one, a JRT, has been gone for 4-5 yrs now. I'll be 70 in 2015. 

I started hunting with Border terriers. The only problem with Borders is they are a kill dog and way to willing to get the crap tore out of them in order to get the work done. 

My 15-16 lb male had killed two raccoons in the ground and got tore up pretty bad but refused to quit.

That wasn't what I wanted in a working earth dog.

Aside from the ethics of letting a dog get trashed it also keeps them from hunting because of time spent laid up healing.

The JRT, as crazy as the are, should be a baying or a bolting dog. My last dog Pete hunted for 5-6 seasons and ner took more then a few nips in that time. 

ALL the people in my hunting group were about getting rid of varmits for farmers and those wanting to rid their gardens of pests. 

If they didn't want them killed we used a bolting dog or a good baying dog. 

The bolters would pressure the quarry enough to force it out a side hole of which most had 405 entrances/exits. 

The baying dogs would contain the quarry in one spot till we dug to them. 

Farmers just wanted them gone. 

*****, ground hog, fox, etc would not fight a dog unless pressured into it with an attack from the dog. It goes against self preservation. A wounded animal can't hunt. Simple as that.

We dug to many boar ***** that were just curled up with their back to the dog.

The exception would be a female with a litter. That was avoided simply because we didn't hunt when cubs/kits of any sort may be in the ground.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Bob Scott said:


> I've never worked a Lurcher but I've watched them on a coyote hunt.
> 
> One dog and one bitch.
> 
> ...


Just imagine how it might have gone, if you or their handlers were a better shot. 

Sorry man, old fella, terrier man or whatever label you might give to yourself or anyone else that hunts like that when a bullet will do, it ain't all that much to talk about or repeat as some sort of epic event in my book.

I had a dog do something similar like that in my front yard to another that was being a menace to a young family with a toddler. Um wow? Or rather, I am glad no one else saw it besides my cousin. I put the dog up and forgot about it. Until now. Bear? That was a little more interesting. Add brown to that word and it got a lot more interesting.

I'm sure there's an aspect of whatever took place that I don't quite get. And really, I am ok with that. Enjoy your memories and the new year that lays before you.


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

Nicole Stark said:


> Just imagine how it might have gone, if you or their handlers were a better shot.
> 
> Sorry man, old fella, terrier man or whatever label you might give to yourself or anyone else that hunts like that when a bullet will do, it ain't all that much to talk about or repeat as some sort of epic event in my book.
> 
> ...


I don't know what you are trying to say but this is a hunting forum...of course people are going to talk about it. It is to be expected. I don't like the ASPCA and PETA so you know what? I just don't associate with them. They do there thing I do mine.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

I said what I wanted to say, to Bob. I don't think I beat around the bush regarding what I had to say or came off with some sort of veiled agenda. But if it confused you why I responded to him, then I'm not sure I will have a suitable response for you.

I've seen coyotes hunted by snowmachine the way people use dogs on them. One in particular was run down and then ran over, caught and beat to death with a wrench. It was wadded up and stuffed in the rack and not surprisingly was lost on the trail back. 

Hunting with dogs doesn't generally bother or offend me. Some of my videos and at least one image in the photo gallery supports that. I do understand that it's necessary particularly when the animals being hunted have become a problem for one reason or another. With that said, I found Bob's story a bit ridiculous especially when a bullet appears to possibly have done the trick. I thought that I was clear when I said I didn't get why someone would choose to hunt like that nor the way I described above when there are other options available. 

Hey, I'm open minded. If you feel like explaining it to me so I can understand why using dogs the way described is a better alternative to shooting the animals being hunted, I'd like to understand why that is. If you can't or don't want to, maybe Bob will.


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

They have to kill them anyway they can. Including lurchers trapping and shooting. They eat peoples cats and dogs around here. Everyone in the west has a coyote story.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Nicole, I don't take offense at your opinion. It's your thoughts on it and I respect that. 

Epic, no. It's simply a hunting method and it was my first exposure to it. 

As to explaining it I can only say that coyotes, to me are pia varmits. Even in the heavily populated area where I live now.

If my dogs happened to kill one on my property I suspect I'd be in much less trouble, if any, because of discharging a firearm in this area is highly illegal without great reason to do so. 

In this particular area where the hunt was (Kansas) they were as common as rats and were known to kill calves on a regular basis during calving season.

Could a gun be used? Of course but that's a choice that was made. No doubt guns are used by many in the area. 

I don't/can't/wont compaire it to running them down with snow machines. I know of no where in the States where that is legal. If it was legal it wouldn't be something I'd care to see or do. 

No excuses, just explanations and I realize they wouldn't be accepted or understood by all. 

Again, these are choices made. All legal in the areas of the hunt.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

I think no one is home in that vid but the guy aint trusting the dog.

Nicole, here is a reason to use a Lurcher to kill a fox/coyote etc over a gun.

You can injure an animal with a gun, for instance if the bullet just catches or passes straight through the animal without the energy dissipating within the body for example if you have too fast a muzzle velocity or to light a projectile or both.

The Lurcher will either catch the fox/coyote etc and kill it, pretty much as quickly as a good shot or it will not catch the fox/coyote and it will get away. There is no injury and maybe weeks of needless suffering as the wound goes septic or the animal bleeds out from a poor shot.

You can also catch the animal out of sight, I haven't seen a gun that can shoot round corners yet.

Another reason is to keep such skills and genetics alive, there is virtually no reason to have a people biting dog anymore but people still train and keep them.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Bob had me at choice and/or choices made. I'll honor that.

I'm pretty familiar with guns so I'm not going to offer further comment to what you said above except for one thing. Maybe you don't know this but there is a set up intended for close quarter combat that is designed to shoot around corners.


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lRCKX-Hi0tQ Here is a good video of ferreting with a lurcher. Way more action packed. That is definitely on my bucket list.


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

How come women never go boar hunting or coyote lurchering that's what I want to know. I think its one of those "green eggs and ham" things. 

There ought to be a holiday..take yer women boar huntin day.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Speak for yourself. This woman hunts, just with guns mostly. Boar don't run wild up here but bear do and one of my dogs hunts big game, those that it's legal to do it with. Lurcher? No. She likes to hunt and it doesn't matter if it flies or runs on all fours she's interested in it.

As far as coyotes and fox, I don't hunt them nor do I live in a place where they are considered a problem for anyone. Bear? Yes, a bit.


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

I just don't know why more women don't hunt, fish and trap. Women do martial arts, they do dog sports...


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Ben Thompson said:


> I just don't know why more women don't hunt, fish and trap. Women do martial arts, they do dog sports...


I wish I knew the answer to that question (except the trapping part as my lifestyle doesn't dictate a need to obtain animals in that manner). Part of it might be regional as in there are a number of women in Alaska that hunt and fish, another might be due to the upbringing of most girls. My brother is handicapped so I got exposed to a lot of things he didn't.


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## Haz Othman (Mar 25, 2013)

Hitting a Coyote while its at a full run being pursued by hounds doesnt strike me as a likely proposition. Nor does shooting in the direction of your dogs sound like a very good idea. Hounds flush the coyote from cover, lurchers finish the job, seems pretty simple.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

When I did natural earth work with terriers my regular 2-3 hunting partners were women. 

The Brits that came over to hunt with us thought they were all crazy because they felt that women still belonged in the kitchen and pregnant. 

I used to get a big kick out of their reactions when the "crazy" wimmins told them what they thought about that. :twisted: :twisted:


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Haz Othman said:


> Hitting a Coyote while its at a full run being pursued by hounds doesnt strike me as a likely proposition. Nor does shooting in the direction of your dogs sound like a very good idea. Hounds flush the coyote from cover, lurchers finish the job, seems pretty simple.


That's assuming one would be pursuing them with dogs to begin with. I figured it was a given that if you had a gun you wouldn't need the dogs and in the event that they had become a problem in a particular area I doubt they'd be difficult to find. 

I've seen enough of them in the wild to know that the option of shooting them isn't near what it was made out to be in an earlier post. Not that I need to point this out but I will, I never have taken issue with any of the posts about dogs being used for hunting. Until I saw what Bob wrote, I never saw any reason to. And because I did, I asked to be educated on the topic.

As an aside Haz, I don't recall you commenting on any hunting threads in the past. So I am curious, when you hunt what do you usually hunt for and what do you use?


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

Ben Thompson said:


> How come women never go boar hunting or coyote lurchering that's what I want to know. I think its one of those "green eggs and ham" things.
> 
> There ought to be a holiday..take yer women boar huntin day.



There's nothing better than a woman who enjoys the outdoors... Rare find, these days.


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## jamie lind (Feb 19, 2009)

Nicole Stark said:


> I figured it was a given that if you had a gun you wouldn't need the dogs and in the event that they had become a problem in a particular area I doubt they'd be difficult to find.


Depends on the area. Where I am most people wouldn't even know there are coyotes around. Seeing one run across a field and shooting it is way different than actively hunting them. Most people don't have a loaded gun sitting around for the odd time they see one in the open. Same with *****.


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## Haz Othman (Mar 25, 2013)

Nicole Stark said:


> That's assuming one would be pursuing them with dogs to begin with. I figured it was a given that if you had a gun you wouldn't need the dogs and in the event that they had become a problem in a particular area I doubt they'd be difficult to find.
> 
> I've seen enough of them in the wild to know that the option of shooting them isn't near what it was made out to be in an earlier post. Not that I need to point this out but I will, I never have taken issue with any of the posts about dogs being used for hunting. Until I saw what Bob wrote, I never saw any reason to. And because I did, I asked to be educated on the topic.
> 
> As an aside Haz, I don't recall you commenting on any hunting threads in the past. So I am curious, when you hunt what do you usually hunt for and what do you use?


Im no great hunter. I have gone a few times for turkey and coyote. Never did run into coyote when I had my gun only when I did not..lol. Around here they are very problematic but also ellusive. 
I never did try to call them in perhaps that would have been more successful. 

As for Bob's post he said the dogs were used to flush the coyote then the lurchers sent in for the catch. I assume if the area he was hunting in is anything like mine its fields broken up with stands of timber and high grasses. I totally get using dogs to track them, push them out of cover for the kill dogs. I dont see were a bullet would have been more effective in those circumstances.

I live in the burbs now, lots of rural areas and park land close by. Coyotes are taking lots of pets and also livestock around here. I have often thought about buying some lurchers and setting up a side erradication business..but no extra space atm.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Nicole Stark said:


> Bob had me at choice and/or choices made. I'll honor that.
> 
> I'm pretty familiar with guns so I'm not going to offer further comment to what you said above except for one thing. Maybe you don't know this but there is a set up intended for close quarter combat that is designed to shoot around corners.


Ha! cool 

There are loads of female hunters in the UK I got my Paterdale off of a girl in Hereford (Wales)


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

The majority of patterdale and JRT breeders in the USA don't hunt their dogs. SO sure lots of men and women have them doesn't mean they hunt with them.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

When I belonged to a terrier group the vast majority were all about den trials and racing. Still quite a few diggers out there also.

When you belong to any group you will be much more aware of those that follow your interest. That's terrier hunting, Lurchers, butterfly collectors, fur trappers, etc.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Nicole Stark said:


> I said what I wanted to say, to Bob. I don't think I beat around the bush regarding what I had to say or came off with some sort of veiled agenda. But if it confused you why I responded to him, then I'm not sure I will have a suitable response for you.
> 
> I've seen coyotes hunted by snowmachine the way people use dogs on them. One in particular was run down and then ran over, caught and beat to death with a wrench. It was wadded up and stuffed in the rack and not surprisingly was lost on the trail back.
> 
> ...


You've given me another slant on this type of hunting. Thank you.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Nicole Stark said:


> Bob had me at choice and/or choices made. I'll honor that.
> 
> I'm pretty familiar with guns so I'm not going to offer further comment to what you said above except for one thing. Maybe you don't know this but there is a set up intended for close quarter combat that is designed to shoot around corners.


I learned this from my Jack Reacher, etc. Krimis.


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## Catherine Gervin (Mar 12, 2012)

for my part, i think being ripped to pieces by dogs is a worse fate than being solidly shot to death by far. humans have used all manner of horrendous methods to eradicate Coyotes and Wolves, both, and have viewed both as nuisances for ages--the traps and poisons and running them down with snow mobiles, the very worst of things, and being set upon by dogs is not a reasonable way of managing your conservation. i've heard talk of unleashing a viral plague of distemper, but having the idea shot down because of the impending collateral damage to unvaccinated dogs. the level of pest deemed by society sometimes matches the level of cruelty with which it is dispatched. i know that coyotes have attacked both house pets and people in affluent areas of Massachusetts and the resulting fury was tempered with modern assessments...they voted to use snipers, essentially, and that was deemed the most fair and humane way of thinning the population of scavengers who have found a way to make due in the absence of alpha predators and amidst the sprawling stake of mankind.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

This is an interesting conversation, although it started off with Bull Terrier!!

My Dad had Greyhounds and used them for coursing. A Greyhound that doesn't pack and kill a rabbit instantly will never be used again or bred from.

I have a little bit of trouble to understand why a Lurcher would be engaged to kill a fox? 

In GB, when the fox goes to earth is the moment the JRTs come into being. The JRT must always be small enough to be able to earth out the fox and kill him. We had a JRT from the well known Cheshire Hunt and when we took him back to the breeder he was sorry he had sold him.

Nick was a headache - a dog that loved humans but saw any other kind of 4-legged creature as prey. Dad told us never to let him off the lead - of course we did! We heard him in the Underground barking deep and another dog barking with a high bark. We rushed to find out. It was Nick not attacking another dog but letting out his hunt and Prey barks??


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Ben Thompson said:


> The majority of patterdale and JRT breeders in the USA don't hunt their dogs. SO sure lots of men and women have them doesn't mean they hunt with them.


Strange comment, the girl I got him from was a member of the local hunt and she did hunt, lol, so do all the other females I am referring to.

Cathrine- If the lurcher is any use, there will be no ripping to pieces just one bite all over. My 9 moth old lurcher bit through a wooden Kitchen chair leg in one chomp the other morning when he was bored, a fox neck is no problem for them.

However I concur, hunting fox and badgers and stuff is not my cup of tea at all.


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## Catherine Gervin (Mar 12, 2012)

i'm all for the squelching of vermin, whatever that particular vermin may dictate, and i am trying to find within myself the reason why i find bulldogs on a hog acceptable but Borzois on a wolf a crime...maybe it's the degree of chance the pest has against its adversary? maybe it's way i regard each particular animal? i don't know. what i do know is that i had an APBT that loved to kill anything that moved and was really in her glory whenever she found a chance to set about it but there came a price upon owning and loving an animal that made her day around crushing the ribcages of other creatures.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Matt Vandart said:


> Strange comment, the girl I got him from was a member of the local hunt and she did hunt, lol, so do all the other females I am referring to.
> 
> Cathrine- If the lurcher is any use, there will be no ripping to pieces just one bite all over. My 9 moth old lurcher bit through a wooden Kitchen chair leg in one chomp the other morning when he was bored, a fox neck is no problem for them.
> 
> However I concur, hunting fox and badgers and stuff is not my cup of tea at all.


The lurcher, as I understand it, is a Greyhound x ? so I can understand the fact that there was no ripping to pieces.

As I said before, a good Greyhound, and one to be bred from, will instantly kill the prey by biiting the neck of it actually just as sure as a sure gunshot could be.

When talking about hunting, my husband helps out by flushing the deer out of the thickets where they can be shot quickly and cleanly.

However, at times such as these, it is advisable not to wear Brown clothing when in the forest, especially not in the Italian part of Switzerland where a number of hunters have lost their lives due to over enthusiastic hunters!!


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I'm really going OT now and apologize.

When I visited the Hohenlohe area in Baden-Württemberg, Germany, the home of my paternal grandfather's ancestors, I saw about 400 oxen in stalls that they could barely lay down in, in comfort. Their food was on the outside of their pen and they stuck their massive heads out to eat it. 

It would not be allowed in Switzerland and I was astonished to see this in Germany but I am glad that certain animals can be hunted and shot instead of leading such an existence.

I am always in favour of game: venison, wild boar, etc. as this meat is from animals that have been running around until beiing shot.


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

Maybe this is too far off topic but one of my neighbors breeds birds. Finches and chickens, canaries etc. In his culture the birds are the pets and the dogs are the livestock. To him killing a wild quail would probably be pretty offensive but someone hunting a wolf or coyote would not faze him much. In some parts of India rats are practically worshipped but in most parts of the world you make every effort to stamp them all in to extinction.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Catherine Gervin said:


> ... and i am trying to find within myself the reason why i find bulldogs on a hog acceptable but Borzois on a wolf a crime...


In a nutshell, it's somewhat like Mann gegen Mann. 

Yet, somehow despite what I said earlier about not understanding it, I find feral hog hunting with Tannerite kinda awesome. For anyone that doesn't know what that is, don't look it up.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Man kitchen man?

lolz.

Gillian I agree completely modern industrial meat farming is diabolical.

Also, coincidence, I was just reading an article about the wearing of bright clothing when hunting in Europe.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Catherine Gervin said:


> i'm all for the squelching of vermin, whatever that particular vermin may dictate, and i am trying to find within myself the reason why i find bulldogs on a hog acceptable but Borzois on a wolf a crime...maybe it's the degree of chance the pest has against its adversary? maybe it's way i regard each particular animal? i don't know. what i do know is that i had an APBT that loved to kill anything that moved and was really in her glory whenever she found a chance to set about it but there came a price upon owning and loving an animal that made her day around crushing the ribcages of other creatures.



The Lurcher ideally makes a fast kill. The one I witnessed was over in maybe 30 seconds from the start and short seconds from the first contact from the Lurchers.

The hog dogs can't actually kill a big hog so they do a lot of gripping and "tearing" till the hunter gets there. Many of the hogs are then thrown on their sides and killed with a knife to the heart.

Could it be just that the wolf/coyote looks to dog like and triggers some sort of sympathy while most "vermin" is looked upon as just that. Vermin! 

Just a though!


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

impossible to clearly explain or even define

re: "Could it be just that the wolf/coyote looks to dog like and triggers some sort of sympathy while most "vermin" is looked upon as just that. Vermin! "

even that is not universally accepted
....... dingos and coyotes are often considered "vermin"
* as were some races during some wars; and were considered vermin that needed killing :-(

some don't even choose to use the word kill when they do
applies to animals as well as humans
- eliminated, thinned, dispatched, put down, put to sleep, culled....all sorts of semantical substitutes 
- use of certain words always have connotations

hunting is no longer necessary for humans even tho they still do it : because they enjoy it....so do chimps and other animals


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Agreed that it's not universally excepted. 

Even the lowly rat is looked at as almost godlike in some countries.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Damn it Bob, you just had to repeat that about the rat didn't you? Since I don't know, I gotta ask - by which ones? 

Yes, I know I could look it up but if I did that I'd have to wade through the countless images, stories, videos or whatever else might be in the way of me finding out. I just want to know which ones to stay away from. You know, so I don't go all crazy and start killing their gods once I stumble upon their forsaken land.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

rick smith said:


> *hunting is no longer necessary for humans even tho they still do it* : because they enjoy it....so do chimps and other animals


This is incorrect, the word "some" should be in there.


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## Meg O'Donovan (Aug 20, 2012)

Nicole Stark said:


> Damn it Bob, you just had to repeat that about the rat didn't you? Since I don't know, I gotta ask - by which ones?
> 
> Yes, I know I could look it up but if I did that I'd have to wade through the countless images, stories, videos or whatever else might be in the way of me finding out. I just want to know which ones to stay away from. You know, so I don't go all crazy and start killing their gods once I stumble upon their forsaken land.


Maybe he meant this one in Rajastan?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2OOs1l8Fajc


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Ha ha, yeah. That's it (Karni Mata). I don't know what's in that video but I'm not going to look at it.

The idea of such a notion repulsed me enough that curiosity eventually got the best of me. I paid $20 for one of my employees to look it up for me. The payment was in place of a standard monthly contribution to charity that he would have made anyway. Well either way, I was glad to hear that it wasn't actually "countries" but one specific place that I'd never go to anyway.

This, is why parents should not let their kids watch bizarre movies when they are little. It was either that or a fever that turned the puppies into rats. I don't know which it was and it really doesn't matter. YUCK!


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

^^ that is very funny ^^


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Nicole Stark said:


> Damn it Bob, you just had to repeat that about the rat didn't you? Since I don't know, I gotta ask - by which ones?
> 
> Yes, I know I could look it up but if I did that I'd have to wade through the countless images, stories, videos or whatever else might be in the way of me finding out. I just want to know which ones to stay away from. You know, so I don't go all crazy and start killing their gods once I stumble upon their forsaken land.



India for one. 

If your sketchy about rats then don't look at this. 

NONE get killed.......for better or worse. 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G823aqIUJMU


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Some humans still hunt for their daily sustenance, it's a bigger number than one would at first think, even in 'first world' countries.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Indeed, this is why I said not too long ago if the SHTF my mastiff would be worth her weight in gold (to me). A very adept/versatile hunter and an extremely resourceful dog. Without question the best I've ever had. And yes Matt, as much as it disgusts me she's a good mouser too. Thankfully she doesn't eat them, but the terrible snipe does. ICK.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Nicole said;

"This, is why parents should not let their kids watch bizarre movies when they are little. It was either that or a fever that turned the puppies into rats. I don't know which it was and it really doesn't matter. YUCK!"

I'm betting your to young to remember the movies "Willard" or it's sequel "Ben" :twisted: :wink:


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

I have no idea what you are talking about and I'm not going to look it up. I've been thinking though. Maybe I need to track Dave Colborn down and see if he wants to take a little journey with me to Ratville, India. Might make for an interesting second episode of the Traveling Dave Show. ha ha


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Nicole Stark said:


> I have no idea what you are talking about and I'm not going to look it up. I've been thinking though. Maybe I need to track Dave Colborn down and see if he wants to take a little journey with me to Ratville, India. Might make for an interesting second episode of the Traveling Dave Show. ha ha



Shame on you for rat hunting in their own temple. :lol: :lol: JKN of course. 

A pack of terriers and it would beat any rat hunt that I've done on pig farms but I suspect THAT would get me arrested. 8-[ :grin:


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Believe it or not, I wasn't looking at it quite that way. Dave is usually up for just about anything new or challenging. He's also an ethical and trustworthy person. Under the right circumstances, I'd consider going to that temple to purge these bizarre and irrational feelings I have about them. Now that the reason they are there (Ratville) makes sense to me (no I didn't look it up, I got that information as part of my charitable contribution), it'd be as good of a place as any to deal with it.

There. Nicole's rat therapy session has ended for this quarter. It appears as if she is making progress.


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## Catherine Gervin (Mar 12, 2012)

Nicole Stark said:


> In a nutshell, it's somewhat like Mann gegen Mann.
> 
> Yet, somehow despite what I said earlier about not understanding it, I find feral hog hunting with Tannerite kinda awesome. For anyone that doesn't know what that is, don't look it up.


that's the thing--feral hog hunting IS awesome! and when boars hash it out amongst themselves the winning boar castrates the loser, so their trials of life are just tough even in the unimpeded state. fighting off dogs is nothing out of their repertoire whatsoever and i know the dogs aren't there to dispatch the pig anymore than the Borzois are to finish off the wolf--they both serve to hold the animal for the human coups de gras, but yes, i must be a tremendous hipocrite because i am impressed by the bravery of the bulldog and i am scornful of the Borzoi's implementation.
perhaps a big chunk of it is that it's one wolf out of a pack set upon by an indomitable force and sentenced to a spectacle-death for the amusement of the aristocracy who are NOT the ones allegedly starving because of the wolf's existence. also i like wolves very much. yet i like Coyotes not at all--they are the most dangerous of scavengers--and still i feel for their predicament and their lot in life.
sorry to wage this philosophical struggle amidst the forum--it just sort of asserted itself into my thoughts and i put it out there seeking help in explaining it to myself...


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Catherine Gervin said:


> that's the thing--feral hog hunting IS awesome! *and when boars hash it out amongst themselves the winning boar castrates the loser*, so their trials of life are just tough even in the unimpeded state. fighting off dogs is nothing out of their repertoire whatsoever and i know the dogs aren't there to dispatch the pig anymore than the Borzois are to finish off the wolf--they both serve to hold the animal for the human coups de gras, but yes, i must be a tremendous hipocrite because i am impressed by the bravery of the bulldog and i am scornful of the Borzoi's implementation.
> perhaps a big chunk of it is that it's one wolf out of a pack set upon by an indomitable force and sentenced to a spectacle-death for the amusement of the aristocracy who are NOT the ones allegedly starving because of the wolf's existence. also i like wolves very much. yet i like Coyotes not at all--they are the most dangerous of scavengers--and still i feel for their predicament and their lot in life.
> sorry to wage this philosophical struggle amidst the forum--it just sort of asserted itself into my thoughts and i put it out there seeking help in explaining it to myself...


Where did you get this information?


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## Meg O'Donovan (Aug 20, 2012)

Bob Scott said:


> Nicole said;
> 
> "This, is why parents should not let their kids watch bizarre movies when they are little. It was either that or a fever that turned the puppies into rats. I don't know which it was and it really doesn't matter. YUCK!"
> 
> I'm betting your to young to remember the movies "Willard" or it's sequel "Ben" :twisted: :wink:


I remember both, and Michael Jackson singing the theme song to the latter. 
Nicole, you'd like these movies... friendly rats, until they turn...


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## Catherine Gervin (Mar 12, 2012)

Matt Vandart said:


> Where did you get this information?


several documentaries and maybe even "Working American Bulldogs" by David Putnam


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

If you think about it the pig is supposed to be one of the animals high on the intelligence/learning capacity scale. 

Most of what I've read is that they are way ahead of dogs. 

Of course rats are also considered to have a high intelligence/learning capacity.

I suppose it all boils down to how one is raised and the values they learn in their growing period.

That all amounts to what part of the world your from or even what part of the country your from. 

City as opposed to rurl life can have completely different values in many areas yet is either one wrong?


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Meg O'Donovan said:


> I remember both, and Michael Jackson singing the theme song to the latter.
> Nicole, you'd like these movies... friendly rats, until they turn...




"Ben" was such a tear jerker in the end wasn't it?!

One of those "Lassie Come Home" moments huh!? :twisted: 8-[


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

I would like to find out more about this boar behavior, do you have any links?


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## Haz Othman (Mar 25, 2013)

I raise rats..snakes gotta eat. The breeders get pretty big. I have bred out all the aggression through successive gens of inbreeding but I can see how a feral one would do major damage to a dog.

I just realized I must have accidentally produced show rats!!!


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

I'm thinking the rats are going to eventually uprise and put you back into the dust you came from.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

I've heard of a sewerage works rat kill a big hob Ferret :O


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Nicole Stark said:


> I'm thinking the rats are going to eventually uprise and put you back into the dust you came from.



:-k :-k :-k Are you SURE you didn't see Willard? :lol:


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Yes. 

I know what those nasty bastards are capable of. I owned and operated a pet store where I got to see first hand what happens when a battle of mice takes place. In that moment it was confirmed, in my mind anyway, what useless creatures things with feet and slithery tails are. What on earth would anyone want with anything that eat each others guts and faces off? 

As far as I am concerned, they're good for target practice and munching on by dogs. Ok, I guess they're good for feeding to snakes too according to someone that lets them live in his house. Um, yeah… and I have a spider cave for my tortoise. 

Though, I'm really not sure I trust the opinion of someone who would share their home with rats just to save a few bucks. That's almost like being a gardner and having a guest room filled with dirt, worms, and a special place for compost too. 

Speaking of rats living in the home, I heard of a woman in Florida (I think it was, all the weirdness in the country seems be nested there) who was living with 300 rats in her home. Yeah, that's right free roaming. No doubt there was shit and piss everywhere and rats in her bed, walls, you name it. WTF is wrong with people?


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I feed rats to my Corn snake but I buy them frozen now.

Tried raising them some yrs ago but two things happened. 

#1 The stunk.

#2 The terriers I had at the time were going absolutely nuts even though I kept them in the garage.

A Border terrier bitch I had actually broke through a garage window and killed a dozen or so and destroyed the cages I had them in also. 

That tore her mouth up a fair amount and that was the end of home grown rats

She did the same thing to a squirrel I had in a cage in there a yr before. I had trapped it because it chewed a hole in the top of the garage door to get to a bag of walnuts. I was going to turn it loose in the Conservation area not to far from the house the day after I caught it. I guess the overnight stay was to much for the little bassid.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

I have a beast of a rat that lives in my walls. I live in a 600 yr old farmhouse (now surrounded by the town) and the walls are 2-3ft thick stone. Over the centuries the rats/mice have made a labyrinth of tunnels through the walls and they are murder to even get sight of. 
Anyway this ****er of a rat will come out of a hole in the wall and potter about on the beams in the kitchen, knows full well the dogs can't get him and he winds them up. He doesn't even care if humans are in the kitchen, unless you have a gun. If you have a gun he sticks his head out has a look and then darts back in the hole.
How can this rat possibly know what a gun is?


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

I'm a real sucker for old homes/structures. But I've been pretty clear about where I stand with rats. 

I'd put the gun up. Most people don't go about randomly shooting at things in their house unless they've gone mad or are dealing with someone that doesn't belong there and has invaded your home. I'd bait the rat, cover the hole, shut all oors/windows, then get a slingshot and let the dogs have their way with it. Looks to me you got a number of nice ones that are right up for the job. If a slingshot won't work, I'd suggest something else. They can be a little loud but a potato cannon would knock that sucker right off that beam.


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## Haz Othman (Mar 25, 2013)

I personally hate keeping them but with 30+ ball pythons I need to keep them. Most balls can be picky so feeding frozen is not alway an option. 

Currently got them in the garage, its getting really cold here so had to run some heat rope along the water lines. They dont seem to breed much in the cold but survive just fine.

I was kicking around the idea of breeding aggression back into family group for fun..but then would have to put them down before feeding which would be a pain..and that might be the recepie for a horror movie..lol.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Alright Haz I dare you. Any that you put down, you have to kill with your bare hands. But first, you will need to release them from their cage and then catch them on your own - no nets, dogs, traps, etc. just you against the rats.


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## Haz Othman (Mar 25, 2013)

Lol nope, those things are like furry razer blades. If I did it, I would be using heavy leather gloves and immobalization tools. 
I think they did the same thing with sewer rats somewhere. Intentionally bred out the aggression and suspicion in one line and maintained it in another. They showed the results of both and how different they were. They wore a chainmail glove though..


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

The gun will be fine it's only a poxy 22 however we have tried trapping the sucker too but he just crawled out the trap when it snapped on him.
Could move up to a fen trap but I don't want guts all over the place.
One guy who used to look after a rubbish dump put a bunch of poles across a ditch that was on one boundary with snares on them highly effective rat massacring plan.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

I'd take rat guts for one hour over living with a rat. I just found myself starting to offer you up more ideas on how to get rid of him and decided that I should probably just shut up now. But... did you ever notice how the Bull Terrier has a bit of a rattish appearance?

There. Back.On.Topic.

BTW Haz, I imagine you were a terrible player or truth or dare. If I can swallow a spider, surely you can handle a bunch of wild bred rats. Baby.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

I appreciate the assistance been trying to get the ****er for years, he/she or his her descendants come back every winter.
Been thinking of putting the ferrets in the hole but they may take up residence instead, lol ferret shite stinks.

Yes I can see how you would think some bull terriers have a passing resemblance to a giant rat.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

The problem with using ferrets in earth work be it rabbits or rats is if the ferret catches one under ground it will hole up until the quarry is eaten. That could be a day or more. 

Of course using a ferret collar works if your inclined to do some digging.


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## shane beanhard (Aug 1, 2014)

Nicole Stark said:


> I said what I wanted to say, to Bob. I don't think I beat around the bush regarding what I had to say or came off with some sort of veiled agenda. But if it confused you why I responded to him, then I'm not sure I will have a suitable response for you.
> 
> I've seen coyotes hunted by snowmachine the way people use dogs on them. One in particular was run down and then ran over, caught and beat to death with a wrench. It was wadded up and stuffed in the rack and not surprisingly was lost on the trail back.
> 
> ...


Bullets don't discriminate,if that coyote Bob mentioned was better/faster/stronger it would have lived.

Studies have found in Ireland places that allow coursing with greyhounds that the Hares are a lot healthier on average.

No reason to think the same wouldn't be true for coyote,or any other animal.

if you have any respect for the species you should target the weaker members,as mother nature does,and allow the better specimens to breed.

you can't know which are the weaker specimens without testing them.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

if you were trying to explain your point to Nicole, i think your explanation uses a lot of fuzzy logic :

"Bullets don't discriminate",
- yes they do. they only go in the (general) direction that the human pulling the trigger intends them to go ](*,)
- NO animal will ever evolve to be able to escape a bullet, whether it is done for idealistic "culling" reasons, or trophy driven, to put meat on the table .... or for just plain old "target practise" ](*,)

"if that coyote Bob mentioned was better/faster/stronger it would have lived".
- unless it was targeted by a bullet, when better/faster/stronger won't give it an edge and keep it alive 

"Studies have found in Ireland places that allow coursing with greyhounds that the Hares are a lot healthier on average"
- this phrase does seem logical.

"No reason to think the same wouldn't be true for coyote,or any other animal".
- maybe .... but only IF you are talking about hunting with an animal and using minimal "tech" to find the prey. certainly not with a firearm. just look at Africa and the tiger decline for a LOT of reasons why
- heck, even bow hunting has gone hi-tech //lol//

"if you have any respect for the species you should target the weaker members,as mother nature does,and allow the better specimens to breed."
- well, all i can say is humans have NEVER done a good job at that. mother nature has always done better !
.... and we never target the same way "Mother" does 

"you can't know which are the weaker specimens without testing them."
- define "testing" and how it's done. you lost me on that one


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## shane beanhard (Aug 1, 2014)

my point was if you respect the species and have it's best interest at heart you would cull the weaker/more easily caught specimens.

looking at a hare i don't know if it's strong,my dog runs it and with fair law and of course in season a strong hare has a very good chance of escaping.

You don't KNOW you're killing the right (weak) animal unless you know,i'm no fan of shooting anything that can be killed with dogs.

and finally we have no wolves in Britain,so our fox and brown hare have it a lot easier,humans hunt indiscriminately so that doesn't help the gene pool,we do however have faster domesticated wolves (called lurchers :mrgreen: ),does it not seem logical to you that they provide an even harsher form of selection?

the places where hares are regularly coursed in England now have as far as i'm aware the strongest brown hare in the world.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

shane beanhard said:


> my point was if you respect the species and have it's best interest at heart you would cull the weaker/more easily caught specimens.
> 
> looking at a hare i don't know if it's strong,my dog runs it and with fair law and of course in season a strong hare has a very good chance of escaping.
> 
> ...



makes sense to me..same as anything...the faster smarter stronger (whatever) survive, depending on the what and where...

Only thing is I would say that the dogs hunt indiscriminately as well, just s you say the humans do......  just the results are different


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## shane beanhard (Aug 1, 2014)

to some extet dogs do discriminate a wily old lurcher knows if that rabbits too far away or is heading for cover too fast,you slip on 1 rabbit and a slower 1 springs up,it'll go for the easier kill.

likewise in a way so do humans,all stags and buck deer will keep growing for a long time,most die young is why you only get the occaisional 'trophy',which is exactly what a lot of shooters will target above all else.

how did that deer get to live so long to get that much bigger than most?


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## jamie lind (Feb 19, 2009)

Bullets do make a smarter animal. Those that say they don't must not hint much. When I first started snow goose hunting all you needed was a few plastic bags as decoys and you would shoot 100 geese. Then that stopped working and people went to 1000 full body spreads. Last time I went people were using cow cutouts to sneak flocks. My guess is now they would spook the minute they saw a cow coming at them. Same with pheasants. Early season birds don't flush until you step on tail feathers. By the end of the season birds are all runners that won't flush or flushing at 80 yards just out of range. Same goes for deer. week after opener most deer limit moving until after sundown.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

???
re: "Bullets do make a smarter animal."
-- don't know what post u r referring to, but i haven't seen a post that would disagree with that statement

re: "Those that say they don't must not hint much."
-- r u saying that they shouldn"t even hint at it or did you mean "hunt" ??

regarding hunting tho ,,,,, i DO ... boar ... with dogs and a shotgun, which is all you are allowed to use over here
- seen lots of smart boars but none smart enuff to stay hidden or outrun even the short range a shotgun has; especially when you have dogs to flush em out

but the bigger picture is more relevant in my opinion. most wild animals that have been hunted extensively have developed a fear of man himself, not just the gun he uses ... sure, that gives them an advantage but still not much of an edge when a firearm is used

bison...wolves....lions...tigers...rhinos....leopards...elephants and a lot more species
none have gotten "smart enuff" to defeat a gun and all populations are in serious decline due mostly to the use of firearms

in many cases they had been thriving for hundreds of thousands of years but many world wide populations have still been cut in half in the last 50-60 years

the facts don't lie no matter how u rationalize it
- of course habitat loss and other reasons exist, but it is a firearm in the hands of a selfish idiot that has had the most impact on most wild animal populations

i'm just glad firearms are not practical when "hunting" in the ocean, and i doubt hunting with firearms and dogs will ever have a significant negative impact on wild game populations, so i'm not worried about that small niche at all


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## jamie lind (Feb 19, 2009)

Then you don't have very much hunting pressure. Even where they want to get rid of pigs, they can't unless they lose habitat.

Just because you think something is fact doesn' mmake it so. More animals are lost do to loss of habitat than hunting pressure. The larger the animal more habitat is required. Look at the animals you listed. See anything in common? Hunting pressure can effect populations if the habitat has declined so much they are unstable to begin with.

none of my statements are absolute, the only world I know of that is absolute, is yours.

btw I wasn't referring to any posts in particular. Just the way I was reading some of the posts.


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## shane beanhard (Aug 1, 2014)

jamie lind said:


> Bullets do make a smarter animal. Those that say they don't must not hint much. When I first started snow goose hunting all you needed was a few plastic bags as decoys and you would shoot 100 geese. Then that stopped working and people went to 1000 full body spreads. Last time I went people were using cow cutouts to sneak flocks. My guess is now they would spook the minute they saw a cow coming at them. Same with pheasants. Early season birds don't flush until you step on tail feathers. By the end of the season birds are all runners that won't flush or flushing at 80 yards just out of range. Same goes for deer. week after opener most deer limit moving until after sundown.


some good points,but i don't believe shooting will ever increase the quality of the hunted animal,i think it's just animals learning 1 or 2 tricks for survival.

not critical thinking or strategy.

we'll all come to our own conclusions based on the reference points we have,the type of hunting we have here is probably vastly different to what happens over there.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

I just thought of something, to the OP, what exactly do you mean you have never seen a Bull terrier do that? Go down a hole you mean?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Matt Vandart said:


> I just thought of something, to the OP, what exactly do you mean you have never seen a Bull terrier do that? Go down a hole you mean?


yeah...


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Oh, how odd.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Matt Vandart said:


> Oh, how odd.


I was just agreeing with you...and wondering what it is that has never been seen before..


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

The Bull terrier is much to large for most, if not all natural earths.

Some of the old timers bred to the Bull terriers for more power but that also got them a quiet dog in the ground. Most of the Bully breeds are quiet on quarry. 

The early method of locating a dog in the ground was to use an iron rod like an old car mechanic uses a screw driver to locate a bad valve. One end on the valve cover and the other end held to the mechanic's ear. 

I've done both the screw drive on the valve cover and the iron rod on the ground. Both can work with experience but i still want a collar to pinpoint the dog. 

Today the active earth dog people use a ferret collar on the dog. It sends signals to a receiver carried by the terrier man/woman. 

The collar can send a signal about 15 feet and give a good read on the depth of the dog. With these a silent dog in the ground can be worked but I don't know of anyone that wants that. It's sort of like listening to a pack of hounds run and tree a raccoon. 

The baying in the ground is a part of the hunt for the terrier man/woman.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)




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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Sporting dog" I will agree with but even with the larger earths in GB you wont find any bullies in the ground.

Used in breeding yes, but the old timers mostly didn't like it because to much bully blood made for a silent worker.

Before the ferret collars were invented and used on earth dogs the standard procedure was to use a long, iron bar to locate the dog's baying. 

It was used the same way an old time mechanic locates a bad noise in a car motor. Put a metal rod against the various places on the motor and the other end to your ear to find out for sure if it's a bad valve, timing chain, etc. 

I've tried it for both cars and dogs. It works but I never sent a dog in the ground without a ferret collar.


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## Catherine Gervin (Mar 12, 2012)

Matt Vandart said:


> I would like to find out more about this boar behavior, do you have any links?


i'm sorry that i never responded to this question way back when you posted it! i don't have any concrete links, but there is a ton of very cool pig information available from Iowa State, where they raise a lot of pigs, and then there is a lot of cool facts about wild pigs in Dave Putnam's book. i think even Animal Planet might have been the source of a documentary about those giant hogs in Florida which were domestic pigs that escaped from farms or trucks and adapted to root and forage out in the Everglades. they got to staggering sizes and the shape of their skulls actually changed because of them reverting to digging up foods and they grew a coat of hair...


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