# First street bite issues?



## Jason Dear (Jun 4, 2009)

My 3 year old czech shepherd got his first street bite the other day. After everything settled, I replayed the situation in my mind and began to see some things I need to work on in training. Long story short, the guy came out the wood line approximately 100 yards away. I gave my warnings, the guy ran again and K9 was sent and went with little hesitation. The guy ran back in the woods and my K9 followed. After making my way through the thick woods to the guy, I found him on the ground. I grabbed the guy and my dog then engaged the guy on the thigh and then began to tear at his jeans. After checking for wounds I found one good bite to his thigh and a second so-so bite to his other leg. After speaking with the bad guy one on one, he said that my dog followed close behind him for about 20 yards into the woods before any contact. He stated that the most serious bite from my dog did not come till I got him. This concerns me.

My training in bite work most usually involves hidden sleeves on the right arm due to the fact we certify USPCA. I have recently began using the bite suit more often and am trying to incorporate some muzzle work. I have always been told not to expect to much from your first bite but if anyone has some training ideas to prevent this from happening again it would be much appreciated. Thanks in advance for any suggestions.


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## David Winners (Apr 4, 2012)

Do you train similar situations? 

If you are always visible to your dog in training, he may be less confident in new situations where he is alone.

I would replicate the scenario in a closer environment and gradually work out to greater distances with longer times of separation.

JMHO, and I have little bitework experience to draw from. I have encountered this in detection and have successfully built the dog's independence in a similar manner.

David Winners


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Could it be that the suspect was more passive than your decoys are? Some K9 never see a decoy that simply ignores the dog and walks away. 

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## Guy Williams (Jun 26, 2012)

Welcome to Police work. You train right arm bites and the dog bites legs!
It is not uncommon to bite other areas as real criminals are rubbish helpers and move funny, make stupid noises and do things the dog has just never seen before.

You send the dog with so many differences in the setup than he has done in training that confusion is almost inevitable in a young dog.

It sounds like he did make contact before you got there and definately when you arrived. That will do a lot for his confidence.

I think your training now needs to start to reflect all the possible things that could happen. Muzzle work is excellent for realistic scenarios.

Things like sending the dog when he can't initially see the helper but then quickly comes into view, quick chnges of direction from the helper, stopping then starting running again. Speaking, not speaking, screaming, throwing things. Training is limited only by your imagination. 

Whenever we have a dog deployment we roll that scenario out to everyone else so we all learn from others successes and failures. You will always find a sceario that confuses your dog at some stage though because nothing is ever the same. As long as you train for every eventuality and help your dog when you need to I'm sure you will see progress.:grin:


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Jason Dear said:


> My 3 year old czech shepherd got his first street bite the other day. After everything settled, I replayed the situation in my mind and began to see some things I need to work on in training. Long story short, the guy came out the wood line approximately 100 yards away. I gave my warnings, the guy ran again and K9 was sent and went with little hesitation. The guy ran back in the woods and my K9 followed. After making my way through the thick woods to the guy, I found him on the ground. I grabbed the guy and my dog then engaged the guy on the thigh and then began to tear at his jeans. After checking for wounds I found one good bite to his thigh and a second so-so bite to his other leg. After speaking with the bad guy one on one, he said that my dog followed close behind him for about 20 yards into the woods before any contact. He stated that the most serious bite from my dog did not come till I got him. This concerns me.
> 
> My training in bite work most usually involves hidden sleeves on the right arm due to the fact we certify USPCA. I have recently began using the bite suit more often and am trying to incorporate some muzzle work. I have always been told not to expect to much from your first bite but if anyone has some training ideas to prevent this from happening again it would be much appreciated. Thanks in advance for any suggestions.


I wouldn't worry to much about it. The first thing you need to see is that he did in fact give the bite, more then one even. Ofcourse he engaged better when you were close, you are his comfort zone and source of confidence. Training and street work are 2 different things all together. You can not train for street work, no matter how much you would like to do so. The dog will gain more and more confidence over time as the street bites add up. This time it took him a bit to get on the bite, next time he will be a lot quicker since he has already learned that a bite is a bite and everything was fine. Its a proces that the dog has to go through in order to grow into his streetwork. Its good to know that you want to train for every eventuality out there but it will be of little use to him since its all still under the "training" rules. You might want to train for streetwork but trust me, the dog knows the difference between trained and real... Its all about confidence for the dog, build that in him, give him more space to make his own decisions on a bite and you will see him grow into his streetwork very quickly.


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## Chuck Zang (May 12, 2010)

I agree with Alice. I would only add that if you haven't done it, try him in wrap, or newspaper, so that the closeness and tearing are not foreign to him. Wrapping with fire hose or canvas is less bulky. The newspaper will tear and slip.


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Jason Dear said:


> My 3 year old czech shepherd got his first street bite the other day.....



Your boy did a little better than mine last month when mine had his first street bite. I have a 22 month old MalxGSD who, unfortunately only had half of a patrol school. I've known from the beginning that he had some issues hitting passive so we've been working on it.

Last month we had an armed robbery at a hospital gift shop and the suspect ran into the nearby woods after abandoning his bicycle. The perimeter was excellent and no one was supposed to be in the woods except the bad guy, the K9 team and my backup officers. We hit the track great and next thing I know my dog is about to munch on an officers leg. That officer wasn't supposed to be in the woods and just before the dog made contact I yanked on the tracking lead and yelled "out" to him. He's a young, inexperienced dog and it surprised the crap out of him especially since we've been doing so much passive work. Once I finished cussing out the moron officer (who's since gone to the airport...good riddance) I reacquired the original track and started again.

No more than three minutes later we find the suspect buried deep under some myrtle bushes with vines. All I can see is one leg from the knee dow. We order him out (he's armed with a knife) but he doesnt make a sound because he's smoking on a pipe and getting high. I give the bite command and the dog doesn't bite. I'm thinking , "F***ing moron perimeter officer!" and I decide to help my boy out. I grab the suspects foot and make his leg come alive whilst giving the bite command. The dog goes in, bites the ankle, lets go, then goes apeshit on my backup officers because they lost their cool and start screaming and hollering at the suspect who is still sitting almost lifeless in the bushes.

So my boy decides he'd rather focus on the backup officers because they're more exciting. Finally, one officer hits the suspect with the Taser and holy crap, the dog goes wild. (been working on desensitization on Taser for the last two weeks BTW). Well, we're in tight quarters and one officer gets waaaay to close to the dog and, Bazinga!...right in the ribs! (A ballistic vest woulda saved him). The officer spins away from the dog and somehow puts his wrist in the dogs mouth. Bazinga again. 

So, I'm pissed about the outcome but I do know the dog will bite for real. The very next night we're chasing a real bad guy all over town. He's going back to prison for 30 years. He does a hit and run and is supposed to have a gun. We track him down and my boy was all business on this guy who was passive as well. To be fair..I prepped my 4 backup officers before going into the woods that they need to STFU and let me handle the verbal commands until at wgich time I give the okiedokie for them to take over. It worked perfectly and was a huge learning experience for the dog.

Back on the subject...last wednesday we did building searches with the dog in a muzzle and the decoy was shirtless and passive. A different look but not uncommon in Florida. It worked out well. Dogs we thought would have no issue just went in and stared at the decoy. Good to know before it happens for real.


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## Brett Bowen (May 2, 2011)

I agree with some of the above, just be thankful he bit. I know of a couple that it didn't happen. 

It's been said on here before, try to mix up your training sessions. Have some of our training sessions as much like a real call as possible. That way the dog doesn't see decoys milling around a bunch of other dogs etc. Try as best you can to hide the "training" part of it from the dog.


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Brett Bowen said:


> I agree with some of the above, just be thankful he bit. I know of a couple that it didn't happen.
> 
> It's been said on here before, try to mix up your training sessions. Have some of our training sessions as much like a real call as possible. That way the dog doesn't see decoys milling around a bunch of other dogs etc. Try as best you can to hide the "training" part of it from the dog.


 This is where we are at now as a unit with 2 new dogs and 2 experienced dogs. We try to set up scenarios using people other than the 6 to 8 handlers that normally train together with us so as not to cue the dogs. We address situatons that we've encountered in the past that caused us problems and work the dogs in those situations. We've gotten away from cookie cutter training and really make the dog think on its feet to be successful. Overall it's working out good for us. The new dogs have so much to learn and it's a long road but I wouldn't trade it for anything.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I've "heard" that a first street bite can be a surprise to many dogs. So different from a sleeve or hidden sleeve for the dog. 
Thoughts?


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Bob Scott said:


> I've "heard" that a first street bite can be a surprise to many dogs. So different from a sleeve or hidden sleeve for the dog.
> Thoughts?


You'd be amazed at the nr of dogs that spit out a bad guy as quick as they grabbed it at the first taste of blood. :lol: 

Some dogs are so used to biting the sleeve or suit that the first street bite often is messy and all over the place, sort of like a tasting session for the dog. They bite, let go because it feels funny, tastes funny, rebite, rebite and so on... I don't think its texture as much as blood that gives them pauze on the first bite.


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

Alice Bezemer said:


> You'd be amazed at the nr of dogs that spit out a bad guy as quick as they grabbed it at the first taste of blood. :lol:
> 
> Some dogs are so used to biting the sleeve or suit that the first street bite often is messy and all over the place, sort of like a tasting session for the dog. They bite, let go because it feels funny, tastes funny, rebite, rebite and so on... I don't think its texture as much as blood that gives them pauze on the first bite.


 
Feed them more raw meat and bones... lol (joking)


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

I would be willing to bet there are people that would volunteer for live bites in exchange for a bottle of whiskey. If tha isn't a description of a raging alcoholic I don't know what is.


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## Mark Sheplak (Oct 28, 2011)

Ben Thompson said:


> I would be willing to bet there are people that would volunteer for live bites in exchange for a bottle of whiskey. If tha isn't a description of a raging alcoholic I don't know what is.


I always thought that "live bites with a police K9" would be an appropriate sentence for dog fighting organizers, folks who use bait dogs, etc.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Thanks Alice! :wink:


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Ben Thompson said:


> I would be willing to bet there are people that would volunteer for live bites in exchange for a bottle of whiskey. If tha isn't a description of a raging alcoholic I don't know what is.


Seems I've heard about something similar to this years ago where it was actually happening. Can't remember where though. It does seem like a win/win but throw in those pesky human rights laws and an alcoholic can't get his drink on like this even if he wanted to these days. (jk ref the human rights. We are our brothers' keepers)


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## Lars Vallin (Jan 17, 2009)

The first bite is usually the most nerve wracking and you will find out in seconds if the dog has an issue with biting a real human. After the first one then each one after that is a blast for the dog. You must use exposed sleeve as little or not at all. Hidden sleeve, thin trial suit, muzzle etc. these help ensure a all out effort on a real bite without any hesitation on the dog's part.


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