# nerves and stuff



## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Im interested to hear peoples thoughts on dogs in relation to nerve and new environments especially new training fields or trial fields.Do people think the quicker and better a dog adapts to a new environment and gets into work mode is more about nerve strength or a conditioned dog or maybe a combination of both?

Some dogs are fabulous with the same field or helpers but nerves etc inhibit them elsewhere and some dogs come out of the car etc and just take way to long to get there head in the game how do people feel about the way nerve strength is shown in this instance? Is it lower nerves or lack of confidance?


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

#1 would be nerves in my book. Without that you can cover up only so much with training and conditioning.
Stress outside what the dog may have been conditioned for, home field for example, will always show the weakness in some dogs.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

I think it is a lack of confidence due to poor nerves for the most part, especially if the dog was properly exposed to the world as a puppy. 

Something as benign as a new training field should not have that much of an effect on a dog with decent nerves, I am assuming he has been to training before, a new field should not mean much to a good dog. unless there is something radically different and strange going on there to the dog..

what type of work are you talking about on the new field...


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

I'm with Bob as far as environment goes. I test mine first at about 3 weeks [puppies I've bred] for how they respond to environment change and its evident then. I think new environments is a nerve thing. On the helper, I think there is some conditioning to a specific helper in the training or can see where that can happen so as part of the training before trialing, I would think you would work the dog on different helpers just to generalize due to different body movements, presentation, etc. But this is limited. 

T


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> I think it is a lack of confidence due to poor nerves for the most part, especially if the dog was properly exposed to the world as a puppy.
> 
> Something as benign as a new training field should not have that much of an effect on a dog with decent nerves, I am assuming he has been to training before, a new field should not mean much to a good dog. unless there is something radically different and strange going on there to the dog..
> 
> what type of work are you talking about on the new field...


Im talking about OB and protection work in particular foundation work and basic stuff with puppies upto adult dogs im not talking about my pup as she is ok but after training last night i observed many different behaviours in the dogs there as i watched.

And i know what you mean as a new training field shouldnt cause a problem but decently trained dogs coming out and getting caught up in sniffing etc and just not looking to there owners for entertainment not being pushy in wanting that play or interaction.

Not sure if that made any sense but i hope so:lol:


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

brad robert said:


> Im talking about OB and protection work in particular foundation work and basic stuff with puppies upto adult dogs im not talking about my pup as she is ok but after training last night i observed many different behaviours in the dogs there as i watched.
> 
> And i know what you mean as a new training field shouldnt cause a problem but decently trained dogs coming out and getting caught up in sniffing etc and just not looking to there owners for entertainment not being pushy in wanting that play or interaction.
> 
> Not sure if that made any sense but i hope so:lol:


well I guess it depends on what you are talking about..

if I walk onto a new field, it is just walking onto some grass, nothing for the dog to get excited about, and she might just sniff around too...pull out a training aid, ball or tug or whatever, or show the dog a decoy, much different story..


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

If you are saying you changed locations and observed that several dogs were enganged in displacement [sniffing the ground] and wouldn't perform or engage their handlers as they did in a familiar place then, yes, its nerves. You'll see dogs that had good food drive or tug drive in an environment that they are familiar with and won't eat or tug in the unfamiliar environment.

T


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

yeah true but i would expect what you have just said from most dogs on a new field but what about dogs that have been there a few times or more and know whats coming?If the dog is walking onto grass at the field its been on before why wouldnt it get excited? why would it waste energy sniffing etc even if it knew a game was coming it liked playing


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> If you are saying you changed locations and observed that several dogs were enganged in displacement [sniffing the ground] and wouldn't perform or engage their handlers as they did in a familiar place then, yes, its nerves. You'll see dogs that had good food drive or tug drive in an environment that they are familiar with and won't eat or tug in the unfamiliar environment.
> 
> T


So ok you say nerves but bad nerves or completely understandable nerves? New smells,environments etc.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

brad robert said:


> So ok you say nerves but bad nerves or completely understandable nerves? New smells,environments etc.


 
Well, for me its a flaw and not understandable for an adult trained dog. Case in point, you said yours was fine. If they are puppies, puppies stage. Usually with puppy, I evaluate them early and they come back to whatever they were after going through goofy stages. Part of this you have to wonder about the training aspect so without knowing the dogs and more of a description of what happened, its hard to say. Dogs can be really specific so its hard to say whether its an issue of generalization or they don't adapt to new different environments. I just finished training a retrieve on a dog. The dumbell now lives in the car because whenever we out and about, I'll stop somewhere different to work obedience and the retrieve--Petsmart, feed store, different park, Purina, etc. to generalize the behaviors. For a really specific dog, if you train it one place doesn't mean its trained in another. 

This is becoming a big deal for me because of my involvment with a certain breed where inability to adapt to changed/new environment is pretty prevalent.

T


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

brad robert said:


> yeah true but i would expect what you have just said from most dogs on a new field but what about dogs that have been there a few times or more and know whats coming?If the dog is walking onto grass at the field its been on before why wouldnt it get excited? why would it waste energy sniffing etc even if it knew a game was coming it liked playing


well a dog being there a few times is not a "new" field to me...lol...
if it is a normal training field where bitework is done, the dog is gonna be going apeshit...

my point was I also take the dog to lots of places to do stuff, different places..many times it is just for a walk...and the dog is not automatically looking to play a game, unless I give some indication that a game might be played...a part of going somewhere new to a dog is sniffing things and walking around....my dog is pretty laid back though  for some dogs, "sniffing" and smelling things is great fun, but I get the feeling you are describing something different...


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> well a dog being there a few times is not a "new" field to me...lol...
> if it is a normal training field where bitework is done, the dog is gonna be going apeshit...
> 
> my point was I also take the dog to lots of places to do stuff, different places..many times it is just for a walk...and the dog is not automatically looking to play a game, unless I give some indication that a game might be played...a part of going somewhere new to a dog is sniffing things and walking around....my dog is pretty laid back though  for some dogs, "sniffing" and smelling things is great fun, but I get the feeling you are describing something different...


LOL sorry joby!! should have clarified it better in some of these cases its a dog at a new field not looking at his owner for a game etc or even interaction for that matter,and other times its a dog thats been to the same park a few times still not really bringing "it"


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Well, for me its a flaw and not understandable for an adult trained dog. Case in point, you said yours was fine. If they are puppies, puppies stage. Usually with puppy, I evaluate them early and they come back to whatever they were after going through goofy stages. Part of this you have to wonder about the training aspect so without knowing the dogs and more of a description of what happened, its hard to say. Dogs can be really specific so its hard to say whether its an issue of generalization or they don't adapt to new different environments. I just finished training a retrieve on a dog. The dumbell now lives in the car because whenever we out and about, I'll stop somewhere different to work obedience and the retrieve--Petsmart, feed store, different park, Purina, etc. to generalize the behaviors. For a really specific dog, if you train it one place doesn't mean its trained in another.
> 
> This is becoming a big deal for me because of my involvment with a certain breed where inability to adapt to changed/new environment is pretty prevalent.
> 
> T


T can you tell me if all this work is done in a high drive or is more a teaching thing(lower drive)


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

brad robert said:


> T can you tell me if all this work is done in a high drive or is more a teaching thing(lower drive)


Brad,

I'm not sure what you mean---high vs. teaching drive. The dog I'm working has what I call good working drive. She will work at anything 24/7. No matter how long or how hard I've worked her, she's up for more. She loves toys and has good ball drive but I don' think she would be the prey drive level that's desired here. She's focused and engaged. She loves the retrieve so much if the dumbell is in the house, I keep it out of sight. It was all free shaped with marker training and food. I don't know, my dogs aren't interested in the environment if I'm around. If one of mine starts sniffing the ground then I've stressed them somehow. 

T


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Brad,
> 
> I'm not sure what you mean---high vs. teaching drive. The dog I'm working has what I call good working drive. She will work at anything 24/7. No matter how long or how hard I've worked her, she's up for more. She loves toys and has good ball drive but I don' think she would be the prey drive level that's desired here. She's focused and engaged. She loves the retrieve so much if the dumbell is in the house, I keep it out of sight. It was all free shaped with marker training and food. I don't know, my dogs aren't interested in the environment if I'm around. If one of mine starts sniffing the ground then I've stressed them somehow.
> 
> T


correct me if im wrong but i think its pretty common knowledge that we teach in a lower drive say for food and we can progress to up the ante e.g say the retrieve can be done for the hope of a reward for say a ball etc.But from what your saying you free shape and thats a different kettle of fish not something i do and very time consuming but i know it makes for a very strong behaviour.

Your statement that if your dog starts sniffing the ground you have stressed them out are you serious?


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## Craig Snyder (May 7, 2012)

Are you sure its a factor of a new field or a factor of new dogs? I'm assuming a new field means different dogs and the sniffing is to identify the other dogs/handlers. 

I woudn't necessarily assume it was nerves. If it was nerves the dog would probably exhibit other signs, maybe very subtle. The typical signs such as tail lowerd or tucked, laid back ears, skittish behavior, handler hugging, might not be as overt but might still be there in a very subtle form.

If it was nerves, I wouldn't assume it's due to the field and environment. I think the other dogs and their overall energies and behaviors would be more of a contributing factor then a new area. The dogs learn so much from smells we will probably never understand how much is communicated. When dogs can smell cancer cells in people, just imagine what they can learn about fellow cannies from an air scent or track.

I have had cases with almost all of my dogs at one time or another of not wanting any part of a new dog and I had no clue why.

Craig


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Good point Craig and it could be both but shouldnt a dog with good nerves ignore other dogs within reason and get excited about work?

This is something that has interested me lately as i see some dogs are killers at there training paddock and either stress or something else affects them else where and they have trouble getting there mind in the game.


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## julie allen (Dec 24, 2010)

We go to new "fields" all the time. Greta comes out of the vehicle ready to work no matter what is going on in new environments all the time. Dogs, cows, goats, people, traffic, machinery working, helicopter landing and flying, she pays absolutely no attention. She has good nerves. She just turned two, but has mostly always been this way.

Libby just turned a year old. She gets out and looks around, gets a little distracted at crazy scenes, but easily will re focus on me and get to work. She is softer than the older bitch, but still good nerves. I feel some of it is an age and experience thing.

The more places we go and work or train, the better, more focused the dogs become. One of my pups shows stress, tail down, yawning, at too much going on. Hopefully experience will help, at four months this could also be a fear stage, and she hasn't been out much at all. But I think she won't.be as strong nerved as she should be.


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## mel boschwitz (Apr 23, 2010)

Julie,
We (SAR) folks, are probably at an advantage, because from day 
most of us are going to different training places. At least, I know my dogs are. We use the same places every few months, but not on a regular basis. My trailing dogs start hard surface trailing from the very beginning, so we are in neighborhoods, around other dogs, construction eqt, etc, from the very beginning. A dog that cant adapt early on is washed out. But for us, since we never know what kind of environment our dogs will be asked to work in, they have to adapt. I consider it a function of nerves and confidence. My dogs HAVE to come out of the box ready to go. A few minutes of sniffing might be fine, but for in progress calls, they have the walk to our LKP to get it out of their system. But I think both can be improved on, esp if worked on early.


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## Craig Snyder (May 7, 2012)

brad robert said:


> Good point Craig and it could be both but shouldnt a dog with good nerves ignore other dogs within reason and get excited about work?
> 
> This is something that has interested me lately as i see some dogs are killers at there training paddock and either stress or something else affects them else where and they have trouble getting there mind in the game.


As Julie and Mel pointed out, those of us in SAR are always at new places. So different environments typically don't really bother our dogs unless it's something really off the wall. I think SAR folks kinda make it a challenge to go to and train in the worse crap and most distracting areas they can find! So while others talk about how tough their decoy was we brag about how deep the mud was, how hard it was raining, how steep it was, how deep the snow was, how thick the thorns were and how big the frigging mosquitoes were.

On the other hand our dogs are usually around mostly familiar dogs. Team dogs they've trained with or dogs from other teams that they have probably trained with. Outside of play sessions before or after training the dogs are usually crated or working. Occasionally they may have a totally new dog but not a bunch of new ones. If they run across a strange dog while training or working it's usually just one or two and they aren't typically bothered by them. Mine totally ignores them when she has her search vest on.

At OB, AKC shows, etc.. you have many more dogs and new sights and sounds. I would guess if you train with the same one or two clubs with only 5-10 dogs at a time, the dogs get use to that. Going to a show with maybe 25, or 50 , or even hundreds of dogs in all different stages of frenzy, excitement could intimidate a dog the first few times. Plus add in vendor stands with hot dogs and hamburgers wafting on the air, lots of cars and different tailgating setups, judges, handler's and spectator's milling around and I'm sure it can really distract a dog. Not to mention the lady in row 2 dosed with a bottle of perfume that I can smell a block away.

I wouldn't blame it on nerves as much as I would a lack of exposure. Sure.. some dogs don't give a crap about anything and are almost distraction proof. I like to think those are the same ones that jump out the third floor windows after crooks too. #-o I'm not entirely sure I'd want that extreme of a dog either. A bit if reservation and self-preservation I think is a good trait, not a bad one. :lol:

The other thing is that handlers can transmit nervousness and non-confidence to their dog. It might be the handler that is causing the behavior if they haven't been through the process before. They might be nervous about showing their dog to new people, worried how it'll work, if they'll look like a bad or novice handler, etc.. The same folks that are lousy test takers but often know the material inside out. I know the HRD SAR folks and trackers are all quite aware of how much info they transmit down a leash. Some days it might as well be a fiber optic line.

I wouldn’t be concerned about a particular dog unless it's clear it's becoming an "every" show thing. A few bad shows, trials or tests out of the gate I don't think is a concern. But each one should be a bit better than the last.

Craig


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## Brett Bowen (May 2, 2011)

Craig Snyder said:


> The other thing is that handlers can transmit nervousness and non-confidence to their dog. It might be the handler that is causing the behavior if they haven't been through the process before. They might be nervous about showing their dog to new people, worried how it'll work, if they'll look like a bad or novice handler, etc.. The same folks that are lousy test takers but often know the material inside out. I know the HRD SAR folks and trackers are all quite aware of how much info they transmit down a leash. Some days it might as well be a fiber optic line.


I think that point is often overlooked. Dogs are better at reading us than we are at reading them. If the bond is there with the dog they are going to pick up on everything about the handler. I've experienced it and seen it in training a lot.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

brad robert said:


> shouldnt a dog with good nerves ignore other dogs within reason and get excited about work?


No, a dog with good drives should. A dog with excellent nerves may have no interest in working and may be more interested in sniffing, peeing, whatever. That shows a lack of drive or work ethic, not a lack of nerve. Unless it's avoidance behavior.

IMO the best way to really get a read on a dogs nerves is out of drive. Drive can hide/overcome many things, a dog with super high drives can be so focused on the ball, bite, etc that it doesn't even see "weirdness" in the world around it. Take that dog out of drive and he may notice everything in the world, and may or may not recover, until put into drive.


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## Michael Joubert (Jul 17, 2012)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> No, a dog with good drives should. A dog with excellent nerves may have no interest in working and may be more interested in sniffing, peeing, whatever. That shows a lack of drive or work ethic, not a lack of nerve. Unless it's avoidance behavior.
> 
> IMO the best way to really get a read on a dogs nerves is out of drive. Drive can hide/overcome many things, a dog with super high drives can be so focused on the ball, bite, etc that it doesn't even see "weirdness" in the world around it. Take that dog out of drive and he may notice everything in the world, and may or may not recover, until put into drive.


I like that


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> if I walk onto a new field, it is just walking onto some grass, nothing for the dog to get excited about, and she might just sniff around too...pull out a training aid, ball or tug or whatever, or show the dog a decoy, much different story..


After nerves I think that this type of training is the next most likely reason the dogs come on the field and don't work. 

If you want the dog to come on the field and be ready for work, the ball should only be produced after the dog is in work mode.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

brad robert said:


> correct me if im wrong but i think its pretty common knowledge that we teach in a lower drive say for food and we can progress to up the ante e.g say the retrieve can be done for the hope of a reward for say a ball etc.But from what your saying you free shape and thats a different kettle of fish not something i do and very time consuming but i know it makes for a very strong behaviour.
> 
> Your statement that if your dog starts sniffing the ground you have stressed them out are you serious?



I would agree with the comment about a dog that starts sniffing the ground can very well be stressed. It's not an uncommon beahviour with many dogs. It can be from confusion. It can be created from confusion or avoidance. 
Teaching in a lower drive isn't always necessary once the dog understands the concept of reward training. 
Example
When I start with a new pup that has crazy drive for the tug I will use food. Once that pup understands how it gets what it wants there is seldom need to go back to food when the tug reward is started. If that were the case then we could never train heeling for instance, with the tug in sight.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Christopher Smith said:


> After nerves I think that this type of training is the next most likely reason the dogs come on the field and don't work.
> 
> If you want the dog to come on the field and be ready for work, the ball should only be produced after the dog is in work mode.



Agree 100% with the exception that the handler hasn't learned to wean the dog off the ball. Then the dog has to be bribed with the ball "IF" it has to be shown in order to get the dog in drive.
The field itself should be enough to key the dog that training is starting.


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> No, a dog with good drives should. A dog with excellent nerves may have no interest in working and may be more interested in sniffing, peeing, whatever. That shows a lack of drive or work ethic, not a lack of nerve. Unless it's avoidance behavior.
> 
> IMO the best way to really get a read on a dogs nerves is out of drive. Drive can hide/overcome many things, a dog with super high drives can be so focused on the ball, bite, etc that it doesn't even see "weirdness" in the world around it. Take that dog out of drive and he may notice everything in the world, and may or may not recover, until put into drive.


I like this too:grin:


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Christopher Smith said:


> After nerves I think that this type of training is the next most likely reason the dogs come on the field and don't work.
> 
> If you want the dog to come on the field and be ready for work, the ball should only be produced after the dog is in work mode.


This makes a lot of sense too-dog gets rewarded for bringing drive etc.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Christopher Smith said:


> After nerves I think that this type of training is the next most likely reason the dogs come on the field and don't work.
> 
> If you want the dog to come on the field and be ready for work, the ball should only be produced after the dog is in work mode.


Christopher.
I am talking about just taking the dog out to new places, in a relaxed manner, like a walk or something, I can imagine some dogs are in work mode as soon as they leave the house, but I do spend a lot of time with the dog, not working her as well. 

I initially thought that is what he was asking about, that a dog should be in drive, wanting to work, everywhere it goes...now I understand he is talking about training sessions...

I am not saying you are wrong, just saying what I do, if I put the right equipment on the dog, that is a cue as well, when we leave the house. toss on a pinch and the Ecollar, or the harness, the dog is ready. 

It can be a phrase too, like "are you ready?" 

I cant imagine anyone who has seen the dog doing something, would say it is a low drive dog, I just am not working the dog every time I do something with it, and she is not spun up, or crazy in drive 24/7. 

Probably just me being lazy, but I do some sort of active training about 50% of the time the dog goes out, other times it is just normal walking, running on the bike, or hanging out..

I understand what you are saying though and do agree...I guess for me there are cues, and different expectations of how the dog is supposed to act. I personally dont like the dog to be in drive at all times. 

I just took the dog for a drive to the pharmacy and let her out in a field to take a crap, I dont think she ever went into drive...but she did some sniffing and rolling around out there...


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

"I just took the dog for a drive to the pharmacy and let her out in a field to take a crap, I dont think she ever went into drive...but she did some sniffing and rolling around out there... :smile: __________________"

 As long as she didn't roll in the crap! :grin:


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> I would agree with the comment about a dog that starts sniffing the ground can very well be stressed. It's not an uncommon beahviour with many dogs. It can be from confusion. It can be created from confusion or avoidance.
> Teaching in a lower drive isn't always necessary once the dog understands the concept of reward training.
> Example
> When I start with a new pup that has crazy drive for the tug I will use food. Once that pup understands how it gets what it wants there is seldom need to go back to food when the tug reward is started. If that were the case then we could never train heeling for instance, with the tug in sight.


Brad,

The way I raise a dog probably lends itself to ignoring the environment. They are pretty much always on me in work mode. I take them all sorts of places and I work them so they probably expect each place to be yet another place to work. So they grow up ignoring everything else but me. The corgis do love people and are social butterflies but if I put them in work mode, that's goes out the window. Stress can come from confusion, too much pressure, or unknown people or environment. I just did my first agility trial and mid-way through the first run, my dog sniffed the floor after clearing a jump. Her owner said she was known to do this. She was stressed. Why? Because I was probably the nerve bag of the duo or acting different than what I do in training. So I started doing that high pitched praise that I do and the next three runs she was running at her training speed and having a blast. I know this dog wasn't exhibiting nerve issues because I've had her in different places. I was being the imposter handler and it negtively affected the dog.

T


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

brad robert said:


> Good point Craig and it could be both but shouldnt a dog with good nerves ignore other dogs within reason and get excited about work?
> 
> This is something that has interested me lately as i see some dogs are killers at there training paddock and either stress or something else affects them else where and they have trouble getting there mind in the game.


Whether the dog ignores other dogs doesn't necessarily have to be because of bad nerves. My suspicion is that if its just changing training fields, they either have trouble generalizing behaviors to different environments or they don't adapt to change of environment.

T


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