# Pele earns his IPO 1



## Sarah ten Bensel

Pele got it today despite some hiccoughs in tracking and OB. Can I say jumps and send-out can send you to the basement?
Here is our Protection routine. 95 points. All deductions came on the courage test - he thought the judge was very interesting ( and the judge was talking to us moments before). Thank you Stefan, I cannot thank you enough.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KHmm6JRttuY


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## Faisal Khan

Cool, big congratulations.


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## Melissa Leistikow

Congratulations Sarah and Pele!!!


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## susan tuck

YAY Sarah and Pele!!!!! Congratulations, I'm so happy you continued to work that boy, he obviously loves it. Well DONE, girl! 
\\/\\/\\/


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## Joby Becker

good job, congrats...thanks for sharing the video,,,


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## Bob Scott

Excellent!


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## Tony Hahn

Congratulations!


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## patricia powers

looks like a very nice dog. good job. 
pjp


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## Gregory Doud

Sarah ten Bensel said:


> Pele got it today despite some hiccoughs in tracking and OB. Can I say jumps and send-out can send you to the basement?
> Here is our Protection routine. 95 points. All deductions came on the courage test - he thought the judge was very interesting ( and the judge was talking to us moments before). Thank you Stefan, I cannot thank you enough.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KHmm6JRttuY


Congratulations Sarah. It makes me very happy to hear this news.  - Greg


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## Alex Scott

Congratulation, the judge could have been in a more appropriate position anyway so I wouldn’t worry about it.


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## Thomas Barriano

Nice dog and nice job. I'd never seen a side transport done like that. Having the decoy step back AND pivot around the dog instead of heeling the dog into position? Anyone know if it's totally within the rules? Also using one of the bail out blinds (especially with a big gap in the back) isn't something you see too often.
Now you have to upgrade Pele's status in your sigline


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## Sarah ten Bensel

Yep its within the rules to do the side transport that way. The rules says to heel to the decoy and that is what I did. I still used the heel command. The rules don't say you ,ust heel in a circle to the side of the helper. I am not sure why the bail out blind was used. I don't think it would have made a difference.


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## Stefan Schaub

Thomas Barriano said:


> Nice dog and nice job. I'd never seen a side transport done like that. Having the decoy step back AND pivot around the dog instead of heeling the dog into position? Anyone know if it's totally within the rules? Also using one of the bail out blinds (especially with a big gap in the back) isn't something you see too often.
> Now you have to upgrade Pele's status in your sigline


If you would train with people who really know the rules maybe also your live would be easier. To the blind!! Also that is legal, why should it not be legal?? Not many people or clubs want spent this money for a good blind like this!!! Would be nice to say, wow the blind was realy close to the kraut, real close to the deck and Pele did not show any sign of interest in that. 
But no!!!! Search some stupid things up and start about a side transport!! I have realy respect for everyone who trials and train dogs and special for you. Should you be ever close to the mid west let me know and stop by!!! Would be more than happy to help you out.


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## susan tuck

Stefan Schaub said:


> ...I have realy respect for everyone who trials and train dogs and special for you. Should you be ever close to the mid west let me know and stop by!!! Would be more than happy to help you out.


a very generous offer, to be sure. If I were you, I would take Stephan up on it, I would. :grin:=P~


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## Thomas Barriano

Stefan Schaub said:


> If you would train with people who really know the rules maybe also your live would be easier. To the blind!! Also that is legal, why should it not be legal?? Not many people or clubs want spent this money for a good blind like this!!! Would be nice to say, wow the blind was realy close to the kraut, real close to the deck and Pele did not show any sign of interest in that.
> But no!!!! Search some stupid things up and start about a side transport!! I have realy respect for everyone who trials and train dogs and special for you. Should you be ever close to the mid west let me know and stop by!!! Would be more than happy to help you out.



Stefan,

I just made couple of observations and asked a couple of questions I wasn't making any criticisms. Calm yourself down ;-)
I do know that IPO I Protection now you're supposed (allowed?) to report in on lead and not remove the lead until you get to the middle of the field right before you start the actual search.
I don't know if there is any point deduction if you do it the old way totally off lead? Then again who knows what the hell the rules are, there are so many different translations and interpretations  
FYI
I train at the same club as the DVG President and retired Judge.
We're always talking about how the new rules can be interpreted.
Thanks for the offer to visit. If I"m ever in the neighborhood I'll take you up on it.


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## Sarah ten Bensel

Yeah I reviewed the rules for IPO 1. Of note I have not trialed for IPO 1 under the new rules. I am glad points weren't taken off for "overachieving" by demonstrating the control on the dog off leash to the starting point for the blind search. I also had the leash clasped around the waist with the clasp in my front and not opposite to the dog. My novice handling was tested. I was lost on how to direct my dog on the courage test as initially we were spot on until the judge shouted to me the rule of the shorter Courage test. I was frazzled by that distraction ( I have never had a judge say something to me before the courage test) and was lost as a handler to regroup my dog. Could I turn and re-heel him? What is a handler permitted to do to help his dog when things go not as planned? In hindsight I know what I must do and for the trial ask my dog to fuss again and refocus on the task at hand and not the guy with the clip board. Plus be more aware of my body position and assessing my dog's frame of mind. I did not however appreciate the instructions being shouted at me moments before the test. Pele broke his sit and I was unable to effectively refocus. I would like to know how others would have handled it. I have heard of dogs going to the judge even when all things appear to in perfect order. Sometimes all one can do is plan for the next training session and learn from expert handlers.


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## Stefan Schaub

Thomas Barriano said:


> Stefan,
> 
> I just made couple of observations and asked a couple of questions I wasn't making any criticisms. Calm yourself down ;-)
> I do know that IPO I Protection now you're supposed (allowed?) to report in on lead and not remove the lead until you get to the middle of the field right before you start the actual search.
> I don't know if there is any point deduction if you do it the old way totally off lead? Then again who knows what the hell the rules are, there are so many different translations and interpretations
> FYI
> I train at the same club as the DVG President and retired Judge.
> We're always talking about how the new rules can be interpreted.
> Thanks for the offer to visit. If I"m ever in the neighborhood I'll take you up on it.


i know many Presidents and Judges and even many have train with me, but i would never ask them for something what the rule book say. the rule book have many parts with a lot of space between the lines.use them for your self and make more points.
i am real relaxed,have just finish up collecting all the left overs from the trial from my field,Melissa left,the kids are fighting and the dogs are barking. now i try to click the chicken.


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## sheila flatz

Sarah, you and Pele did a great job-- it's true, there was a large crowd there, and Pele was totally focused in and around the blind! All your hard work is paying off. Something happens at every trail, next time it will be something else  Congratulations on a great score!


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## Thomas Barriano

Sarah,

Not only did yelling instructions right before the courage test distract you. It got Pele focused on the judge, so the decoy had to make more attraction. The distance is shorter for an IPO I, but I've seen some judges have you start closer and others have everyone start at the same spot but the decoy runs closer before they signal you to release your dog for an IPO I

We're trying to decide if a 2nd side escort is still required for an IPO II (after the attack out of the back transport). It was added a couple of years ago but not sure if it made it into the 2012 IPO rules. It was a rule when I did Jago's SchH II but the Judge said no he didn't want to see it, so I did 't do it anyway 

When the new IPO rules were first presented. The pick up out of the blind was eliminated and you had to do a call out at all
levels (like the old IPO rules) Now the final version has the pick up option at IPO I back in.

Looks like the judge liked what he saw and gave you an appropriate score. Congratulations


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## Vinnie Norberg

Sarah, not sure if I got the chance to congratulate you two on Saturday so CONGRATS! Nice job.


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## Keith Jenkins

First off congratulations.

Too answer you Thomas, yes a side transport back to the judge is required at the 2 level after the attack out of the back transport. 

As for the flapping bail out blind it is a bit hard to follow the rules that state the helper is to be out of sight of the dog. The helper can clearly be seen. Rules are rules. 

That is the first time I've ever seen a helper step into the side transport position.


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## Sarah ten Bensel

Oh well when its not windy the blind stays closed. Not a big deal as a competitor to someone else's trial, its up to the host club and judge to have those details worked out. Dogs know where the decoy is. Pele was going to guard whatever obstacle placed there. The rules and interpretation are very picky in some regards and not in others.


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## Stefan Schaub

Keith Jenkins said:


> First off congratulations.
> 
> Too answer you Thomas, yes a side transport back to the judge is required at the 2 level after the attack out of the back transport.
> 
> As for the flapping bail out blind it is a bit hard to follow the rules that state the helper is to be out of sight of the dog. The helper can clearly be seen. Rules are rules.
> 
> That is the first time I've ever seen a helper step into the side transport position.


Now you have learn something new!!!


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## Stefan Schaub

Keith Jenkins said:


> First off congratulations.
> 
> Too answer you Thomas, yes a side transport back to the judge is required at the 2 level after the attack out of the back transport.
> 
> As for the flapping bail out blind it is a bit hard to follow the rules that state the helper is to be out of sight of the dog. The helper can clearly be seen. Rules are rules.
> 
> That is the first time I've ever seen a helper step into the side transport position.


Here is the rule:

. Auf Richteranweisung geht der HF in normaler Gangart, auf
direktem Weg zu seinem Hund und nimmt ihn mit dem HZ für "in Grundstellung gehen“ in die
Grundstellung. Der Softstock wird dem Helfer abgenommen.

Es folgt ein Seitentransport des Helfers zum LR über eine Distanz von etwa 20 Schritten. Ein HZ für
"fuß gehen“ ist erlaubt. Der Hund hat an der rechten Seite des Helfers zu gehen, so dass sich der
Hund zwischen dem Helfer und dem HF befindet. Der Hund muss während des Transportes den
Helfer aufmerksam beobachten. Er darf dabei jedoch den Helfer nicht bedrängen, anspringen oder
fassen. Vor dem LR hält die Gruppe an, der HF übergibt dem LR den Softstock und meldet die
Abteilung C beendet.

To the blind!!
did you see me in it,if yes you may have also seen the pictures of my friends inside of the blind,i stay there so many times in it so i thought i make it a little more home.


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## Keith Jenkins

Once again the the fuzzy foreigners teach us lowly American how's it's really done. 

Perhaps before you left the military you should have had you eyes checked one last time...you most certainly can see you in the blind. 

Funny here in the US we don't drive the dogs back towards the handler...you know like the rules state. 

While I understand the necessity to get the dogs attention on the long bite once you got the dog coming back to you you don't keep backing up and give it to what amounts to a suck-up bite. 

By the looks of you classification date as basic helper I'd be willing to bet a large chunk of change when you tested you didn't step back into the side transport like you did. You didn't walk out of the blind and do less than an Airborne shuffle down the field. You didn't drive the dogs towards the handler. You didn't turn back towards the dog on the escape bite and feed it the sleeve. 

Or perhaps you weren't required to test because you spoke with an accent. 

Look I understand it's a club level IPO1, things get over-looked because it is an entry level. To me that means perhaps not such a sharp pencil being used by the judge, not reinventing the rules as needed.


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## Stefan Schaub

Keith Jenkins said:


> Once again the the fuzzy foreigners teach us lowly American how's it's really done.
> 
> Perhaps before you left the military you should have had you eyes checked one last time...you most certainly can see you in the blind.
> 
> Funny here in the US we don't drive the dogs back towards the handler...you know like the rules state.
> 
> While I understand the necessity to get the dogs attention on the long bite once you got the dog coming back to you you don't keep backing up and give it to what amounts to a suck-up bite.
> 
> By the looks of you classification date as basic helper I'd be willing to bet a large chunk of change when you tested you didn't step back into the side transport like you did. You didn't walk out of the blind and do less than an Airborne shuffle down the field. You didn't drive the dogs towards the handler. You didn't turn back towards the dog on the escape bite and feed it the sleeve.
> 
> Or perhaps you weren't required to test because you spoke with an accent.
> 
> Look I understand it's a club level IPO1, things get over-looked because it is an entry level. To me that means perhaps not such a sharp pencil being used by the judge, not reinventing the rules as needed.


Funny Guy!!maybe yo should learn how the dog sport on basic level works. but no i forgot beat all the small handlers and hobby sportler down,make a escape like a sprint,go against the dog with all what you have and destroy the hope and the fun of so many people.smart!!!if you want real work,bring your dog down,we place four cameras on the field and i do that what you want.do you think your dog goes trough that.i wonder why i have more than 40 people walking over my field week for week,i wonder why people pay money and drive hundred of miles all time to come and train.but right i am real basic and i can live with that fine.but my basic is for sure far more than ..........! do not let us go there.would look bad for you and many others.
again funny guy,shows me what i say all time.big things in mind but not able to walk first the small way. 

did not know that the US have different rules for IPO.Thanks for letting me know.


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## Stefan Schaub

Stefan Schaub said:


> Funny Guy!!maybe yo should learn how the dog sport on basic level works. but no i forgot beat all the small handlers and hobby sportler down,make a escape like a sprint,go against the dog with all what you have and destroy the hope and the fun of so many people.smart!!!if you want real work,bring your dog down,we place four cameras on the field and i do that what you want.do you think your dog goes trough that.i wonder why i have more than 40 people walking over my field week for week,i wonder why people pay money and drive hundred of miles all time to come and train.but right i am real basic and i can live with that fine.but my basic is for sure far more than ..........! do not let us go there.would look bad for you and many others.
> again funny guy,shows me what i say all time.big things in mind but not able to walk first the small way.
> 
> did not know that the US have different rules for IPO.Thanks for letting me know.


SORRY KEITH

i just finished watching all your movies on youtube and i did not know that you play in the first league of dog training. sorry again and maybe one day i will find someone who can teach me all the rules and the big boy sport.

Sorry again!! Sorry-Sorry-Sorry
sometimes the air makes me crazy.


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## Dave Colborn

Congratulations and thanks for posting the video!! 



Sarah ten Bensel said:


> Pele got it today despite some hiccoughs in tracking and OB. Can I say jumps and send-out can send you to the basement?
> Here is our Protection routine. 95 points. All deductions came on the courage test - he thought the judge was very interesting ( and the judge was talking to us moments before). Thank you Stefan, I cannot thank you enough.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KHmm6JRttuY


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## Keith Jenkins

Please don't go on with the club trial bullshit. Never said you had to make this the FCI WM but you still need to work the dogs like the rules state even at club level. 

Spare me your resume. I don't care how many big events you supposedly worked you sure couldn't tell by this one. This is the kind of bullshit work that everyone points to and says there is no real test in IPO just so that clients can feel all warm and fuzzy.

Sorry to high jack your thread.


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## Thomas Barriano

Stefan

Side transport: the google translation of the german rules you provided said 

"the dog has to go to the right side of the helper so that the Dog between the helper and the handler is."

How does you stepping back and turning around, equal the dog going to your right side?
I think the rules are vague and the judge chooses to take points or not. This was a local trial and the judge could have taken points for this side escort and could have NOT allowed the use of a bail out find blind. I think a lot of judges would point you for that type of side escort. I think that's why I've never seen it before in person or on video? Of course none of this has anything to do with Pele doing a nice job and earning a nice protection score.


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## Stefan Schaub

Thomas Barriano said:


> Stefan
> 
> Side transport: the google translation of the german rules you provided said
> 
> "the dog has to go to the right side of the helper so that the Dog between the helper and the handler is."
> 
> How does you stepping back and turning around, equal the dog going to your right side?
> I think the rules are vague and the judge chooses to take points or not. This was a local trial and the judge could have taken points for this side escort and could have NOT allowed the use of a bail out find blind. I think a lot of judges would point you for that type of side escort. I think that's why I've never seen it before in person or on video? Of course none of this has anything to do with Pele doing a nice job and earning a nice protection score.


The dog is going to the right site!!!complete like the rule say!! you can do it on every trial. i had a argument with Warren(RP) on a trial because he have to take points for that,than he tooked his smart book have read it again and have say sorry you are right. 2011 St Croix trial USCA!!!

Same with the blind. Show me the part in the rule book!!


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## Stefan Schaub

Keith Jenkins said:


> Please don't go on with the club trial bullshit. Never said you had to make this the FCI WM but you still need to work the dogs like the rules state even at club level.
> 
> Spare me your resume. I don't care how many big events you supposedly worked you sure couldn't tell by this one. This is the kind of bullshit work that everyone points to and says there is no real test in IPO just so that clients can feel all warm and fuzzy.
> 
> Sorry to high jack your thread.


Funny Guy!!!! ](*,)](*,)](*,)


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## Stefan Schaub

Thomas Barriano said:


> Stefan
> 
> Side transport: the google translation of the german rules you provided said
> 
> "the dog has to go to the right side of the helper so that the Dog between the helper and the handler is."
> 
> How does you stepping back and turning around, equal the dog going to your right side?
> I think the rules are vague and the judge chooses to take points or not. This was a local trial and the judge could have taken points for this side escort and could have NOT allowed the use of a bail out find blind. I think a lot of judges would point you for that type of side escort. I think that's why I've never seen it before in person or on video? Of course none of this has anything to do with Pele doing a nice job and earning a nice protection score.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qBjIIrE5tCQ

BSP 2010 the blind!!guss what.but you can not know because you was not there. the reason that many times this kind blind get used is that the helper stay way deeper in it!!!because of the four pools it is wider!!!!!

same in 2011
this time from here

http://www.schweikert-shop.he-hosting.de/index.php?cat=857&lang=DEU&product=71302

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GsiD-Ks6gkc

now relax nice because it is like i say.

and Keith watch the side transport..wow the judge is Diegel!!!!!

i know i am so gooooooooood


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## Keith Jenkins

I don't give tinkers damn who it is. For all I know he did get dinged for it. 

Out of all the trials here in the US I've watched or participate in for the last 20 plus years I've never seen a competitor or helper conduct the side-transport in that fashion. Nada. 

Neither the USCA, WDA or DVG helper program teach the side transport to be conducted in this manner. What you guys seems to get away with in Germany doesn't mean it will fly here or that it is correct.


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## Stefan Schaub

Keith Jenkins said:


> I don't give tinkers damn who it is. For all I know he did get dinged for it.
> 
> Out of all the trials here in the US I've watched or participate in for the last 20 plus years I've never seen a competitor or helper conduct the side-transport in that fashion. Nada.
> 
> Neither the USCA, WDA or DVG helper program teach the side transport to be conducted in this manner. What you guys seems to get away with in Germany doesn't mean it will fly here or that it is correct.


now you show more and more that you do not have any clue what you talk about.the rules have get changed a few years ago.before it was. Helper step back,hands up,dog down,handler to the Helper take stick,back to the dog,sit and than to the helper.

like i say before you are FUNNY!!!! but your dog world is small!!!

but what is now with the blind!!!!!!i think every dog should lose 5 points for that blind because the mean guys have put in on the field.since when does a helper on a trial decide how to do the transport.the helper have to follow the order of the Handler!!!!the jugde only tells the Helper when to make the left or right turn and when to do the attack.you do not must say thank you to me!!!i know on your next trial you do the same and than you get happy to make one point more because it is way more easy.

and never forget also in higher age you still can learn


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## Thomas Barriano

Stefan Schaub said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qBjIIrE5tCQ
> 
> BSP 2010 the blind!!guss what.but you can not know because you was not there. the reason that many times this kind blind get used is that the helper stay way deeper in it!!!because of the four pools it is wider!!!!!
> 
> same in 2011
> this time from here
> 
> http://www.schweikert-shop.he-hosting.de/index.php?cat=857&lang=DEU&product=71302
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GsiD-Ks6gkc
> 
> now relax nice because it is like i say.
> 
> and Keith watch the side transport..wow the judge is Diegel!!!!!
> 
> i know i am so gooooooooood


Stefan,

The problem wasn't the 4 pole or wide blind. The problem was that the back wasn't secure and the dog could see the decoy which is against the rules. At least in the USA.
Now I've seen two people do that funky side transport. What's the advantage, besides messing with some judges?


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## Keith Jenkins

That disarm and side transport hasn't been around since before the last VDH rules change in 2004. Let me correct that, it hasn't been done here in the states since then. What you guys do over there is.... well over there.

What is your jibberish about the blind? 

Are you really going to push this off on the handler? You can sit there with a straight face and tell the entire forum you didn't teach the handler this is how it should be done?


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## Sarah ten Bensel

I think a debate about the rules is a good thing. The rules would need to be very specific about such things as the side transport if it seems to cause such a hullabaloo. But let me tell you this...I was NOT instructed or taught that this was the only way the transport was to be done. We thought it best to do it this way. I work too hard with my training to go against rules. I read them over and over again and no where did it say that I must heel in a circle to the helpers right! It did not say that I couldn't ask the help to turn around. I heeled several steps to the helper's right. We practiced this way to the side transport and believe me I know the rules and was NOT instructed that I must do it this way or that way. I did it how I have practiced. Nor do I think it took away or added points to the whole picture of how my dog performed. I also know that Pele and I are capable to heel around jupiter to the helper's right if it says to do so. I do not know if one method is easier than the next from the dog's perspective, except the circle adds some complexity for the dog. Why wouldn't the judge have said something? If I got dinged on it (I didn't) I would easily do it the other way next time. Its all OK.

As far as the comment about Pele getting fed the sleeve on the attack out of motion. What is the point? The video does not appreciate the sharp curve Pele took and decisions being made at a split second. The safety of the judge and the dog. We were docked points for the exercise.

On to IPO 2 we go and I feel we earned it!


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## Keith Jenkins

I didn't say he was fed the sleeve on the long bite I said he got a suck up bite. I said he was fed the sleeve on the escape. 

While you may think you know those rules if I might add next trial, try actually lining up in the center of the field which the rules state. You were barely 10 feet from the left side blinds when you lined up. That didn't help your dog lining up like that. 

Hey it's your coin. I would ask at the handler's meeting before your next trial before you presume you can do this anywhere you go. If you only plan on trialing here and having the helper talk the judge into allowing this hey more power to you. 

This was an entry level...you don't get all the breaks when it comes to judging as you move up the food chain.


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## Wendy Schmitt

I have seen that back transport before in Europe but this is the first time I've seen anyone in the US try it. It is just a new "style" of entering into the transport, but nothing illegal. 
Just because something is different doesn't mean it's wrong.

Wendy Schmitt


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## Stefan Schaub

Keith Jenkins said:


> That disarm and side transport hasn't been around since before the last VDH rules change in 2004. Let me correct that, it hasn't been done here in the states since then. What you guys do over there is.... well over there.
> 
> What is your jibberish about the blind?
> 
> Are you really going to push this off on the handler? You can sit there with a straight face and tell the entire forum you didn't teach the handler this is how it should be done?


Maybe you should learn the rules.it is about the rules not what i teach. and this side transport is absoluty in the norm. maybe you do not understand what i have say.on each trial the handler give order to the Helper,if he steps back,how many steps and when,also in the side transport he have to walk and stop when the handler it say.

and for sure i teach it this way!!!!why??because i do not want to take the dog away from the helper.some peole have a concept why they do things.i have see your concept in your youtube movies!!!!
i know you did not see it in twenty years and i could tell you a few other things what you not have seen in twenty years.
you should call and ask your highest Judge here in theUS.Maybe he can tell you what is the only right way. not step back,step back one step or more,turn around or not turn around.so maybe you can prove your knowledge here with a rule book.but it say only you have to bring the dog to the right site of the helper!!!how???it is not in the rules.


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## Stefan Schaub

Thomas Barriano said:


> Stefan,
> 
> The problem wasn't the 4 pole or wide blind. The problem was that the back wasn't secure and the dog could see the decoy which is against the rules. At least in the USA.
> Now I've seen two people do that funky side transport. What's the advantage, besides messing with some judges?


really,so maybe the dog should get two points more because he have take first the empty blind with seeing me in the bark blind.try to figure out why i do it on this way.special your dog with the problems on the helper would gain from that.


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## Mario Fernandez

Stefan is right the handler instructs the helper for the side transport.


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## Sarah ten Bensel

Keith Jenkins said:


> While you may think you know those rules if I might add next trial, try actually lining up in the center of the field which the rules state. You were barely 10 feet from the left side blinds when you lined up. That didn't help your dog lining up like that.


Really? look again! I was on the painted spot at midfield for the start. I double checked being at the middle. The camera angle didn't help. If that is 10 feet from the left blind than I am a foot tall. I am six feet tall. It was the middle of the field. Thanks.

Yes I am quite aware the pencils get sharper on the way up the "feeding chain" and the sleeve presentation on the escape made it the best chance for a full grip. I didn't just fall off the turnip truck. For good or bad of the sport. I have every intention of trialing other places. Pele has worked on MANY different helpers and fields, we will rise to whatever comes before us. 

Can you tell me again why this side transport is against the rules or not correct? I still can't find in the rulebook I was given from USA. Perhaps a judge on this forum can chime in.


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## Thomas Barriano

Stefan Schaub said:


> really,so maybe the dog should get two points more because he have take first the empty blind with seeing me in the bark blind.try to figure out why i do it on this way.special your dog with the problems on the helper would gain from that.



Come on Stefan. It has nothing to do with the dog getting 2 extra points or losing two points. None of the dogs should be able to see the decoy until they get around in front of the blind. Your bail out blind is/was defective. Quit making excuses.


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## Thomas Barriano

Sarah ten Bensel said:


> Can you tell me again why this side transport is against the rules or not correct? I still can't find in the rulebook I was given from USA. Perhaps a judge on this forum can chime in.


I said I'd never seen it done that way and asked if it was within the rules. I don't know why my question has gotten such a reaction.


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## Sarah ten Bensel

I think it got a reaction becuase Keith inferred it was somehow not permissible. Stefan can certainly defend himself with regard to the blind. But just an FYI, this was not Stefan's Club or Stefan hosting this trial. Stefan was the helper for another club's trial at Staatsmacht Kennels. Some of the participants train with Stefan, some do not. The blinds and field set up was done by the host club and the judge. Just curious if seeing the helper feet in the blind supposed to give the dog an advantage? Seems like it may make it harder for the dog if he has to run the blinds although he can see the helper in the hot blind. At the end of the day who is responsible to enforce the rules of a trial?


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## Elaine Matthys

Thomas Barriano said:


> Stefan
> 
> Side transport: the google translation of the german rules you provided said
> 
> "the dog has to go to the right side of the helper so that the Dog between the helper and the handler is."
> 
> How does you stepping back and turning around, equal the dog going to your right side?
> I think the rules are vague and the judge chooses to take points or not. This was a local trial and the judge could have taken points for this side escort and could have NOT allowed the use of a bail out find blind. I think a lot of judges would point you for that type of side escort. I think that's why I've never seen it before in person or on video? Of course none of this has anything to do with Pele doing a nice job and earning a nice protection score.


I've been doing this sort of side transport for a couple of years and haven't had a single judge say anything. I went to the regionals and the judge was fine with it there too. There were a few other people at the regionals doing it at the same trial I was at, so it's not all that unusual and it's certainly not unacceptable. None of us lost a single point for doing it this way and it presents a much better picture of each team getting into position.


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## Keith Jenkins

Helpers take instructions from the handlers but only within the frame work of the rules. 

If you want to be really picky no where in the rules does say we are allowed to even ask the helper to step back for the side transport. 

After the release, the dog is to remain close to the helper and watch him attentively. At the judge’s instruction, the handler (HF) goes at a normal pace in the most direct way to his dog and takes him into the basic position by commanding“Heel/Fuss” The soft stick is taken from the helper. A side transport of the helper now takes place to the judge (LR) over a distance of about 20 paces. A command to “heel” is permitted. The dog is to go at the right side of the helper so that the dog is between the helper and the handler (HF). During the transport the dog is to be attentive to the helper. He may not however crowd the helper, jump on him or grip. The group stops in front of the judge (LR). The handler (HF) gives the soft stick to the judge (LR) and reports out ending phase C. At the instruction of the judge (LR), the handler (HF) goes with his dog on leash to a place where the critique will be given and the helper will receive instructions from the judge (LR) to leave the field. Prior to the critique and under the direction of the judge (LR), the dog is put on leash.

Show in these rules, which are directly off the FCI website, that a we can say anything more that heel/fuss during the side transport. Please point it out.

I have asked the LRO for DVG for his view on this along with the video for a demonstration.


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## Keith Jenkins

The judge is ultimately responsible for make sure that rules are being adhered to during a trial. I don't believe if we want to show good sportsmanship we should go looking for grey areas in the rule book to suit our situation.


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## Thomas Barriano

Sarah ten Bensel said:


> I think it got a reaction becuase Keith inferred it was somehow not permissible. Stefan can certainly defend himself with regard to the blind. But just an FYI, this was not Stefan's Club or Stefan hosting this trial. Stefan was the helper for another club's trial at Staatsmacht Kennels. Some of the participants train with Stefan, some do not. The blinds and field set up was done by the host club and the judge. Just curious if seeing the helper feet in the blind supposed to give the dog an advantage? Seems like it may make it harder for the dog if he has to run the blinds although he can see the helper in the hot blind. At the end of the day who is responsible to enforce the rules of a trial?


If anything the dog seeing the helper would be a disadvantage IMO because he'd want to go straight to the find blind. Of course by the time you trial, the dog knows where the helper is 
Seeing the helpers feet is one thing but the whole back of the blind was open. At the end of the day the judge is responsible to enforce the rules, but at a club level most go with the host
club field set up and equipment and let minor stuff slide.


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## Thomas Barriano

Elaine Matthys said:


> I've been doing this sort of side transport for a couple of years and haven't had a single judge say anything. I went to the regionals and the judge was fine with it there too. There were a few other people at the regionals doing it at the same trial I was at, so it's not all that unusual and it's certainly not unacceptable. None of us lost a single point for doing it this way and it presents a much better picture of each team getting into position.



Elaine

Just because a judge didn't say anything doesn't mean they didn't point you (unless you got a 100 points) 
I've seen a ton of stuff done in a side transport by the handler
big circles, small circles, pivots, backing up etc. I've never seen a decoy directed to step back AND turn around in a side transport. IF it's 100% acceptable then I can see some advantages. I'd like to see some input from a Judge


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## Stefan Schaub

Thomas Barriano said:


> Elaine
> 
> Just because a judge didn't say anything doesn't mean they didn't point you (unless you got a 100 points)
> I've seen a ton of stuff done in a side transport by the handler
> big circles, small circles, pivots, backing up etc. I've never seen a decoy directed to step back AND turn around in a side transport. IF it's 100% acceptable then I can see some advantages. I'd like to see some input from a Judge


You are just a winer!!remember your crying about the doberman nationals, they they treat you not fair,what about the rules than.gain show me a point where the rules where broken,none.all what you can do is talking around.the rules get done from the AZG!!!google that.they take the lead.the dog was on the right side of the helper!!how??the rules does not say it!!!so what.The blind is looked on two positions in the back!!!because the wind blows it a little open you start to cry around here!!shame on you,better you should start to train your dog and get the help you need for the next time.wonder why all time the same people make the points the rest is crying around.do you or your buddy Keith really want tell me what to do what is right.i have make more helper work on every level of trials than you and your friend have visit.that is my last word about that because you can not help the blind!!!!


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## Thomas Barriano

Stefan

My post was to Elaine NOT to you.
Work on your English comprehension skills. You have had ZERO clue as to the intent of my posts and have misconstrued pretty much everything I've said. Have a nice day


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## Keith Jenkins

So I take it you can't point it out to me in the rules where it states the handler can say any more than what is specified when it comes to what instructions can be given so now it's the last word you'll say on it...lol. 

So if say the LRO for DVG/LV America comes back and says it's improper they will be wrong also? If he comes back and states it's ok with *no* points off I'll be the first to concede the point.


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## Troy Seaton

Nice job Sarah...CONGRATS. TS


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## Elaine Matthys

Thomas Barriano said:


> Elaine
> 
> Just because a judge didn't say anything doesn't mean they didn't point you (unless you got a 100 points)
> I've seen a ton of stuff done in a side transport by the handler
> big circles, small circles, pivots, backing up etc. I've never seen a decoy directed to step back AND turn around in a side transport. IF it's 100% acceptable then I can see some advantages. I'd like to see some input from a Judge


No, I did not get a 100 score, but I did get a very nice score and the judge let me know where I lost points, just like they do at every trial. 

I know there are clubs that are still stuck back in the stone age of training, maybe you belong to one of them? If so, you should get out more and learn some new things. It can only help your training and performance at trial.


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## Keith Jenkins

According to DVG the rules are in somewhat of a contradiction. On the one hand the helper follows the instruction of the helper under helper rules, on the other hand the rules do not allow for commands other than heel/fuss per the trial rules governing this particular instance. This may be addressed definitively one way or the other in the future. At this time it is left open. Although not entirely clear as I stated I will concede the point.


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## Thomas Barriano

Elaine Matthys said:


> No, I did not get a 100 score, but I did get a very nice score and the judge let me know where I lost points, just like they do at every trial.
> 
> I know there are clubs that are still stuck back in the stone age of training, maybe you belong to one of them? If so, you should get out more and learn some new things. It can only help your training and performance at trial.


Or maybe interpretation of the rules depends on the organization and the judge and the level and nothing to do with how you train?


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## Joby Becker

Thomas. do you train promoting any forms of aggression or intent?

If not, if you think that you did that your dog might not be disctracted and would go to the helper? even if he blew off a blind or two, it would be better than blowing off the helper in blind 6, in my mind anyhow.. the dog might also engage in the escape bite, if you trained with aggression, if you are not currrently...

I understand that you have titles and stuff, but both videos I have seen from 2 of your dogs at trial, I saw literally zero aggression on a scale from 0-10


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