# Ratty Lunges at Cars



## kenn hasling (May 26, 2010)

My Rotty has a really high prey drive. He was a handful to train until he was about 3years old. The last big hurdle has been he lunges at cars as they go by us when going out for a walk. I've tried lots of different things to try to break him of the lunging at cars, but no luck. He doesn't care about people or other animals that walk past us, just the cars. Any suggestions would be great. ThAnks for a great forum everyone.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

This will over simplify the solution, but train him to DO something, not to NOT do something. Mutually exclusive behavior. IE an attention heel. If he is looking at your eyes, he can't leave and chase cars. Simply let him walk normally, and when car is approaching, make him show attention. If that makes sense, training it is pretty easy. Does the idea make sense to you?



kenn hasling said:


> My Rotty has a really high prey drive. He was a handful to train until he was about 3years old. The last big hurdle has been he lunges at cars as they go by us when going out for a walk. I've tried lots of different things to try to break him of the lunging at cars, but no luck. He doesn't care about people or other animals that walk past us, just the cars. Any suggestions would be great. ThAnks for a great forum everyone.


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

kenn hasling said:


> My Rotty has a really high prey drive. He was a handful to train until he was about 3years old. The last big hurdle has been he lunges at cars as they go by us when going out for a walk. I've tried lots of different things to try to break him of the lunging at cars, but no luck. He doesn't care about people or other animals that walk past us, just the cars. Any suggestions would be great. ThAnks for a great forum everyone.



WHat have you tried so far in order to solve this?


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Dave Colborn said:


> This will over simplify the solution, but train him to DO something, not to NOT do something. Mutually exclusive behavior. IE an attention heel. If he is looking at your eyes, he can't leave and chase cars. Simply let him walk normally, and when car is approaching, make him show attention. If that makes sense, training it is pretty easy. Does the idea make sense to you?


It sounds like an idea to work it out like this but its not a solution to the problem. Its just a way of working around the problem by focussing his attention elsewere untill the car has passed. In the end the lunging will still be there and in an unguarded moment the dog will go if he sees the opportunity to do so... Add to that that if he lives at a busy road and cars pass constantly you are heeling constantly and not really walking the dog anymore but keeping him in OB which pretty much defeats the purpose of a walk all together.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

What will happen training with this mindset, will teach the dog to look up to you when a car comes in the end. It works well, if done properly. 

As with all other training, it has to be executed properly. 





Alice Bezemer said:


> It sounds like an idea to work it out like this but its not a solution to the problem. Its just a way of working around the problem by focussing his attention elsewere untill the car has passed. In the end the lunging will still be there and in an unguarded moment the dog will go if he sees the opportunity to do so... Add to that that if he lives at a busy road and cars pass constantly you are heeling constantly and not really walking the dog anymore but keeping him in OB which pretty much defeats the purpose of a walk all together.


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## patricia powers (Nov 14, 2010)

jmho, but lunging at cars is not a display of prey drive. automobiles are not prey. i think you have other issues to deal with. pjp


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

He didn't say that specifically, but does it matter? 

Who are we to tell a dog what prey is. When we stimulate a dog into prey by moving, and cars can move, it's not that much of a stretch. 

But again, does it really matter?




patricia powers said:


> jmho, but lunging at cars is not a display of prey drive. automobiles are not prey. i think you have other issues to deal with. pjp


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

i crashed a truck into a ditch once in a rural area because a Rottweiler thought it was a good idea to hide on the side of the road and then jump into the street and attempt to take n ovehicles head on, the speed limit there was 50 mph...

I saw the same dog do it to other cars at later times...
We I drove by very slowly through that area and saw him other times, he did not come out in the street, lunge at the vehicle, or attempt to chase it...it was weird, the dog had a death wish I think....

I think there are a few methods that could solve this problem. gaining control over the dog is certainly one of them. mental control, n


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

i crashed a truck into a ditch once in a rural area because a Rottweiler thought it was a good idea to hide on the side of the road and then jump into the street and attempt to take n ovehicles head on, the speed limit there was 50 mph...

I saw the same dog do it to other cars at later times...
We I drove by very slowly through that area and saw him other times, he did not come out in the street, lunge at the vehicle, or attempt to chase it...it was weird, the dog had a death wish I think....

I think there are a few methods that could solve this problem. gaining control over the dog is certainly one of them that will help.


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## Charles Corbitt (Oct 24, 2012)

I would recommend a prong collar and corrections just before he lunges. To me sounds like basic leash training that was incomplete. My female Rottie at a early age had the same issue (she also has a high prey drive) with lunging at cars as they went by, she now (year later) is great on leash. When you see him begin to notice the car is the time to correct, don't wait for the lunge. Waiting for him to lunge is like correcting him because he didn't get the car my 2 cents


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

My male used to do that shit. 

I picked the freaking busiest intersection in my town. I stationed myself on the corner of that intersection.

I spent a hour there 3 different times and lifted him up (kind word for hang) when he lunged. Got some strange looks.

He got sick of that crap really quick.

That's not a sophisticated way to train but I'm not a sophisticated dude. I just try the old common sense approach to make the dog hate to even think about lunging.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

re "I've tried lots of different things to try to break him of the lunging at cars, but no luck."

1. start by listing the "lots of different things" and it might help explain why they didn't work

2. follow that up with a video that shows busses, trucks, scooters, bikes, skateboarders, joggers and other animals running by that the dog ignores while calmly walking next to you.

if that isn't possible, get a person with a car that will work with you via cell phone when you have your dog and tell them when to move and when to stop the car, when to rev the engine and honk the horn, etc., while you are doing something with your dog all around the car that the dog will do and stay in control
- i won't spoon feed the many ways you can build on this but it might help

- i think you probably have other issues involving control of your dog besides "moving cars", but that is all you are talking about so far, problem wise
- i'm guessing it is reactive to lots of things besides cars, but it is just reacting more to the cars
- and i'm also guessing the dog cannot be walked in public off lead. do you at least have control of it in your front yard off lead ? does it have a reliable recall ?

sorry, but based on what you wrote i can only guess at most of this

good luck


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Rick, I for one appreciate the enthusiasm


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## kenn hasling (May 26, 2010)

Thanks everyone for your replies. I've not been able to get hime to consistantly pay attention to me when cars go by. I've used a prong collar all of the time that I know that we will be near traffic. I've all but hung him by the collar. I've made him sit before the car comes but maybe that gives him time to watch it coming at him. He does well healing; recall; downs,etc. Not sure what to do next. Thanks again for the replies.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

you don't think you understood why i mentioned recall ability
-- you said recalls are fine
-- sorry, but i'm a doubting Thomas //lol//
if that is accurate, then you should be able to run away from him when a car approaches and recall him and he should fly to you and forget the car

-- all it takes is a tracking lead to test it safely
-- i'm betting that has never been tried 
-- and i'll bet the recall is not as solid as it could/should be, so plse explain specifically how you have worked on the recall and i'll bet you could get lots of advice on how to get it more solid


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

One of my daughters had a pit. While not very dog aggressive ther was one dog on thier daily walk that her pit would go balistic every tim they got close to that yard. 
She taught the focused heel and as David commented, her pit would automatically go into that focused heel when it got close to the yard. 
She taught the focused heel with markers and did have to correct once or twice but it was little more then a simple leash pop to get he pit's attention. That leash pop was easily faded out.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

re: Bob's example....
a focused heel triggered by the situational environment without needing a command.
... that's an interesting training concept


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## Jojo Bautista (Mar 7, 2010)

I used LOU CASTLE's crittering protocol with a MALINOIS once who loves to chase BIKES.

The bike eventually became a VISUAL CUE for the dog to STICK to my leg.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Alice Bezemer said:


> It sounds like an idea to work it out like this but its not a solution to the problem. Its just a way of working around the problem by focussing his attention elsewere untill the car has passed. In the end the lunging will still be there and in an unguarded moment the dog will go if he sees the opportunity to do so... Add to that that if he lives at a busy road and cars pass constantly you are heeling constantly and not really walking the dog anymore but keeping him in OB which pretty much defeats the purpose of a walk all together.


I had a GSD that lunged at the deer in a deer park I often passed. I made him heel and when he just even looking at the deer a verbal or a physical correction came. Looking up at me meant a kibble or two. For me, any lunging, aggression towards other dogs, etc. was "not respecting the lead that I was holding" That is for me a no go! It can be taught to small pups, a lunge on the lead is tabu!

I am positive though that if I had let the dog off the lead, he would have worried the deer - I was just ensuring that he respected the lead. Unfortunately, he left for "higher pastures" before I could test him.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I read this somewhere:

A dog used to worry cyclists on his walks. The answer was "let someone cycle by with a very heavy book under his arm. As the dog approaches, the cyclist lets the heavy book drop in front of it".

Maybe if it was a miniature breed, it could have flattened it, if not ......your guess is as good as mine.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I am sometimes sad when I read posts from dog owners that have problems with dogs being unruly on the lead, etc.

We have hundreds of private enterprises offering "puppy classes", young dog training, etc. I will probably be "hung at dawn" if someone from my country reads this but none of these people seem to be able to teach new handlers how to "contain" their pups / young dogs.

The worst are the puppy classes. Very often, the more dominant pup becomes a thug and the shy pup even worse.

The pup learns how to react to other pups at the breeders. I am honestly convinced that it doesn't need more.

At the German and Belgian Shepherd Clubs over here there is often a chance that an experienced handler will show the newcomers how to handle their pups but very often, commercial enterprises are more interested in the financial rewards.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3GRSbr0EYYU


Never gets old!!!


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## kenn hasling (May 26, 2010)

I tried a few of the suggestions, one in particular. I used a tracking lead to test recall. It's not as good as I thought. Here I thought that he was good at it, come to find out only in certain situations. Anyway, I have a lot more work to do, any suggestions would be appreciated in getting the recall solid. Thanks everyone for all of the help.


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## Meg O'Donovan (Aug 20, 2012)

Dave Colborn said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3GRSbr0EYYU
> Never gets old!!!


Classic comedy.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Every yell of the dog's name also reinforces the fact that it means nothing to the dog. 
I'm thinking JC was laughing his.....errrr.......I mean he was really getting a good belly laugh out of it.8-[8-[


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

kenn hasling said:


> I tried a few of the suggestions, one in particular. I used a tracking lead to test recall. It's not as good as I thought. Here I thought that he was good at it, come to find out only in certain situations. Anyway, I have a lot more work to do, any suggestions would be appreciated in getting the recall solid. Thanks everyone for all of the help.



Build distractions slowly and when in critter country I would have the dog on a 6ft lead. The tracking line is for when the dog is solid closer to you under strong distractions.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

Bob, regarding this suggestion : "Build distractions slowly and when in critter country I would have the dog on a 6ft lead. The tracking line is for when the dog is solid closer to you under strong distractions."

i can see this as general guidance for walking a dog but if it is a suggestion for how to improve a recall, i don't get it. for me i need more than 6ft of separation to train a recall except for the absolute starting level, and the OP said he has already trained a recall.

there have been some good suggestions so far.
- improving OB never hurts but it doesn't always solve the specific problem of losing control over the dog. a focused heel is a great substitute behavior, but in my type of training, it gets worked on WAY after a recall. a recall is always the first behavior i want a client to get solid. 99% of my customers say their dog will recall, but less than 5% will do it in the real world when it is needed. this post seems like a good example of that.
- and simply correcting the snot out of the dog will work for many dogs without wrecking the dog/owner bond

most of of here would probably agree that a dog who will recall "most" of the time does not have a solid recall. why is it not solid ? simple. not enuff proofing, or maybe a bad bond between dog/owner, or maybe some of both. 

- the OP was asking about trainers. do you need to pay a professional trainer to learn how to proof a dog for a solid recall ? i think not; all you need is imagination, and a plan that you actually STICK to. how many ways and techniques are there to do this ? HUNDREDS 

- since i don't try and reinvent a wheel i asked how it has been taught so far, and i'm not about to go thru steps i would take until i see the specific ones taken so far. that would motivate me to suggest a few ways that might have a chance to work better 

- one last comment. i use food, toys and bites as rewards, but when teaching a recall i rarely start out with any of those. i want the dog coming to ME motivationally and if i can't get the foundation built that way i work on the bonding side b4 going fwd on building the recall

i know many won't agree with this but i'm not trying to start a debate. i want to continue the Kenn's thread and get him some help. hope it's a two way street  

i know there are many here who have great ways to train recalls


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

rick smith said:


> - improving OB never hurts but it doesn't always solve the specific problem of losing control over the dog.


What did you mean here? I don't think you said what you meant. 

If a dog stays in a heel under distraction, or the distraction actually becomes a cue for obedience, you have won. You have taught the dog what to do when he sees, smells or senses a car.


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Dave Colborn said:


> What did you mean here? I don't think you said what you meant.
> 
> If a dog stays in a heel under distraction, or the distraction actually becomes a cue for obedience, you have won. You have taught the dog what to do when he sees, smells or senses a car.


The problem isn't really solved. All that is done is redirecting attention but you never really solved the desire to lunge for cars. You only added a temporary bandaid when walking the dog and in an unguarded moment when not walking the sog but maybe raking leaves or getting the morning paper yoi dog spots a car and goes for it. The key is wanting to walk the dog so it can do his businness. Not to make it a training exercise. JMO tho....


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Alice. 

A car is just like saying "sit" to a dog. It's an external stimulus. Just like odor in detection we can illicit a sit, stare, or scratch. Just like finding a guy in a blind and doing a bark and hold. If seeing the car makes it show attention instead of giving chase...problem for all intents and purposes IS solved. 

Think gunfire in heeling....The dog should show more attention. 

The benefit to training something like this is that in the event you have a dog that takes correction too well, pain stimulates, or has built up a tolerance over time, it's much easier to get them under control. 

Read the thread where mike mentions getting a dog that was corrected for biting so much that it bit well enough to pass his test. The method I describe will address a wide variety of dogs.

How would you solve it? 



Alice Bezemer said:


> The problem isn't really solved. All that is done is redirecting attention but you never really solved the desire to lunge for cars. You only added a temporary bandaid when walking the dog and in an unguarded moment when not walking the sog but maybe raking leaves or getting the morning paper yoi dog spots a car and goes for it. The key is wanting to walk the dog so it can do his businness. Not to make it a training exercise. JMO tho....


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

kenn hasling said:


> I tried a few of the suggestions, one in particular. I used a tracking lead to test recall. It's not as good as I thought. Here I thought that he was good at it, come to find out only in certain situations. Anyway, I have a lot more work to do, any suggestions would be appreciated in getting the recall solid. Thanks everyone for all of the help.


I guess my biggest question would be, how long did you stick with any of the things you have tried and are you walking him off leash?

Some people try one thing one week and another the next not giving the dog the time it needs to actually understand what is wanted from it.


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Dave Colborn said:


> Alice.
> 
> A car is just like saying "sit" to a dog. It's an external stimulus. Just like odor in detection we can illicit a sit, stare, or scratch. Just like finding a guy in a blind and doing a bark and hold. If seeing the car makes it show attention instead of giving chase...problem for all intents and purposes IS solved.
> 
> ...


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

It might work if you are strong enough. The dog is three. Corrections administered by Kenn up to this point haven't worked. We are looking for a solution for Kenn.

If a dog is walking on a loose leash and sees a car and breaks into an attention heel vs. chasing it, is this bad by your standards? Also, if you aren't present, the likelihood of your one ass kicking keeping a dog from chasing cars when you are not there, kind of negates your argument.

*I would go to the busiest street I could find and have the dog sit next to me and wait for him to lunge. The thing is, no behaviour goes without its little tell tale signs that a lunge is coming. I would never let the dog get to the lunge to begin with. I would correct in the moment that the buildup becomes visible to me. What would I correct him with (I know thats a question thats coming so I best put it here and save you the trouble.) Depends on the dog and its character. If he's got attitude and dares to come up the leash I might kick its ass right there and then. If he is pretty easy to handle I would just choke him upwards so his front legs come of the ground and have him figure it out for himself. Action, reaction.... Nothing more or less, no grey areas or places for the dog to discover just plain ole laying down the law and saying that he doesn't pick what happens but he does as told. *


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

Alice
- you obviously use compulsion a lot
- you have said many times it's "black and white" as opposed to "asking" a dog to comply with a command
- you make it sound pretty simple

many people here who have had problems have used what they would consider physical compulsion (corrections) with little success.

- i think we would all agree their failure was either due to bad timing or not using enough force to get the dog's attention...would you agree with that ?

so why not specifically explain some correction methods you have used that might work for others. other than just saying it depends on the dog ? 
- i'm sure that a lot of people here don't really understand what hanging a dog really means. and there are some dogs, pet or otherwise, who will actually go into full blown aggression and do some serious damage if an owner tries to kick its ass and doesn't win fast, and if you are not dressed for the occasion and have perfect timing, you are asking for an ER visit imo. 

i don't know if this is appropriate for the current thread, but i just don't think it is as simple for the typical WDF poster as you make it sound
- whether the lunger needs a come to jesus moment is still open, imo. i'm not going to suggest any alternative techniques until he re-joins the conversation and says how he is currently training, but i doubt if he needs to pay a pro trainer to fix this issue


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

There you go, Alice! I got my "lunger" to the point on that same intersection where I could put him unleashed on sit/stay, walk to the other side of the street and recall him from across the street.

This guy used to try to chase every car that came by. 

I should add that he was a year old not 3 when I worked on the issue.

The only big difference between our posts were I waited until he actually made the first move.

It does take a bit of guts to lift a dog in front of God and everybody.

But I'm not a shy dude!


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

rick smith said:


> Alice
> - you obviously use compulsion a lot
> - you have said many times it's "black and white" as opposed to "asking" a dog to comply with a command
> - you make it sound pretty simple
> ...


I understand what Alice means with it depends on the dog. If I hung my handler soft but very aggressive otherwise female she would have a heart attack.

Obviously I wouldn't recommend wearing shorts if your hanging a dog. A full grown Rottie could be a handful for a light weight person. I know because I owned Rotties befoe Dutchies. But I'm 6 foot 215 lbs. So compulsion if they needed it wasn't a issue.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

using corrective measures and gaining control over the animal can also translate into a dog that will give attention when he gets the urge to start thinking about passing cars... just sayin....


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Dave Colborn said:


> It might work if you are strong enough. The dog is three. Corrections administered by Kenn up to this point haven't worked. We are looking for a solution for Kenn.
> 
> *Nothing to do with strong but with smarts. Not much force needed to lift only the front of the dog so its front paws do not touch the ground.Hell, I have bad joints and no strength at all left but I can still manage to lift a Rottie of the floor by its leash and or collar and choke it . I suspect a strapping lad like Kenn will be able to do that as well. As for corrections adminstered up till this point, I kinda did say that followthrough might be an issue here. You can do whatever you want but if you don't stick with it the dog will not learn one single thing... And yes we are looking for a solution for Kenn and how to WALK his dog, not how to train his dog to do exercises during a walk. The point is that the dog can go about his businness here and not go into a perpetual state of heeling so he doesn't get to do his businness... *
> 
> ...


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

rick smith said:


> Alice
> - you obviously use compulsion a lot
> - you have said many times it's "black and white" as opposed to "asking" a dog to comply with a command
> - you make it sound pretty simple
> ...


I think it is actually really that simple since there is nothing more to it then what I said. People insist on making it hard on themselves by coming up with elaborate schemes in order to fix a problem that is often fixable without to much effort.


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Lee H Sternberg said:


> I understand what Alice means with it depends on the dog. If I hung my handler soft but very aggressive otherwise female she would have a heart attack.
> 
> Obviously I wouldn't recommend wearing shorts if your hanging a dog. A full grown Rottie could be a handful for a light weight person. I know because I owned Rotties befoe Dutchies. But I'm 6 foot 215 lbs. So compulsion if they needed it wasn't a issue.


Yup, you got what I meant! 

Shorts would not be advised :lol:


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

Alice will never agree with me .... i wanna cry 
re: "Nope, I wouldn't. You forgot followthrough which is the biggest problem that most handlers forget. "

thought i was clear ... i was talking about how the correction was GIVEN (timing and force); not how many times it might be needed 

what i thought you meant by followthru is that unless you have a wonder dog that learns from a single correction, it might take a few more "followups"

you probably need less follow thru than most, but in my experience :
1. about 90% of the "corrections" i see are not forceful enuff to get the dog's attention
2. way more than 50% are delivered with bad timing too
--- result : dog learns to resist nagging and has no clue what exactly the owner is trying to communicate. if that isn't the biggest problem in basic dog training using compulsion i don't know what is. if the freakng owner is not giving a proper correction to begin with, all the followthru in the world is pissing in the wind ](*,)](*,)](*,)

nice to bring up the importance of followthru, but imnsho it is NOT part of giving a proper correction; it's part of the overall training plan 

debating the timing that you and Lee differed on is for another day//lol//


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

i think its really as simple or as involved as one wants to make it, Ive had quite a few dogs that initially or later in life decided that they wanted to try to lunge at various things, I am not talking fearful reactive type stuff either, but want to engage type stuff. pitbulls, rottweilers, mals, presa canario, dutchies, bulldogs..

gaining control over the dog is the key. Its not complicated, just teach the dog that you dont want it doing that crap, and it stops.

was it "fixed"...who knows...all I know is the dogs knocked that shit off. and usually I could tell when the dog was thinking about trying it again, because most of the time, the dogs visibly reacted to its own thoughts and corrected itself..

I can say that a well trained dog under control is great to have, but also will say Ive personally never owned a dog that I have put into all these crazy situations that I read on here sometimes.. Im happy if they "act right"..


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

Joby
i hear you and in some ways it IS simple, but just because the "theory" is simple, the reality often takes a lot more finesse and skill than many dog owners have

but if that was the case why are there hundreds of thousands (or more) dogs all over the world that won't pay attention to their owners ?
- i say it all has to do with physical corrections not being applied properly, and if everyone knew how to do it we would have a world full of dogs under control and maybe Kenn wouldn't have needed to start this thread

- of course there are other methods of training but damn near everyone uses compulsion, either all of the time or some of the time. that's why i was focusing on physical compulsion

i just tried to break it down into the two components that, from my perspective anyway, seem to be the root of the problem

i'm sure everyone on this forum could take a walk with their dog in any town, on any given day, and see "corrections" being applied to dogs who could care less and were totally unaffected 
- that's why i say it's the number one problem, and i am certainly NOT trying to imply this is only a problem for "pet owners"

a well delivered correction timed properly and given with the correct level of force is worth a thousand useless "leash pops", and if you have to REPEATEDLY hang the dog, wouldn't you agree that might be some other reasons why it isn't getting the job done ?

but if i'm missing an element here, or you don't agree with how i'm defining a correction, please add to these two

guess i just get tired of hearing how easy and simple it is because when i'm actually with someone, they usually think it is so easy and simple to do.... with their own hands on their own dog


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

correction :
they usually DON'T think it is so easy and simple to do.... with their own hands on their own dog


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Alice. Does this make sense to you? There are no certain pros for your method and certainly some cons. I don't want you to think I am not correcting the dog, because with the way I teach it, at some point I would expect to. I will tell you it will be less, and easier to understand for a dog to be successful afterwards which is what I want. I am correcting the dog for not doing a learned behavior. You are correcting a dog in a fashion that we are not sure what he's pairing it up and thus can't predict the outcome.


*So.......Let's:*
*STATE THE PROBLEM*

The dog lunges at cars on leash. 

Two methods have been suggested. Teach an alternate behavior or correct/choke the dog.

Teach an alternate behavior method:

PROS


Giving attention, the dog can't lunge at cars on leash 
Teach the dog an alternate behavior in a quiet spot and then move closer to cars, less physical correction is needed, which will be easier on the dog and the owner (you don't let the dog get away with anything) you control the stimulus and bring it around cars slowly 
Creates a behavior as solid as a "sit" by learning that when a car comes, he is going to get a reward for attention, or get a correction for inattention. The car is the stimulus, just like a verbal sit. This is very common in pet training. Think of a doorbell or knock at the door and teaching a dog to go to his place vs. jumping on someone at the door. 
Gives the dog something specific to do to get rewarded.
 
CONS


Takes longer to teach than a single event learning situation
 *Correct the dog really hard/lift and choke method:*

PROS


May work first time 
May get paired up when the dog is looking at the car and cause it to avoid looking at cars
 
CONS


May not work first time 
May get the hander eaten up 
May pain stimulate the dog to chase the car more, to see the car as what is causing it's pain, and feed the desire to bite it more 
May not have the physical strength to do this as a handler if it is a driven dog 
May build drive towards the object by lifting it up (opposition reflex) 
Tells the dog what not to do, but leaves the dog open for a variety of other bad behaviorsr 
May cause the dog to run the other way when he sees a car, pulling the owner in the opposite direction, not changing anything but the direction, in response to the stimulus.


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## Jojo Bautista (Mar 7, 2010)

Same idea with DAVE...

The car becomes a PREDICTOR OF PUNISHMENT. The dog may not DISPLAY aggression externally but deep inside, the HATE is seething and will explode without warning.

I like to work by ASSOCIATING the car for REWARD and by PUNISHING for breaking EYE CONTACT or HEELING.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Jojo Bautista said:


> _The car becomes a PREDICTOR OF PUNISHMENT. The dog may not DISPLAY aggression externally but deep inside, *the HATE is seething and will explode without warning*.
> _


really??? it will??? sounds like a great plot for a doomsday movie.. LOL..


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Thanks for simplifying and adding. This makes very clear what I was trying to say. I agree 100%. 


Joby. The doomsday plot won't play out with all dogs, but when it does.. It is doomsday to the slow fella on the end of the leash. Lol.





Jojo Bautista said:


> Same idea with DAVE...
> 
> The car becomes a PREDICTOR OF PUNISHMENT. The dog may not DISPLAY aggression externally but deep inside, the HATE is seething and will explode without warning.
> 
> I like to work by ASSOCIATING the car for REWARD and by PUNISHING for breaking EYE CONTACT or HEELING.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Dave Colborn said:


> Thanks for simplifying and adding. This makes very clear what I was trying to say. I agree 100%.
> 
> 
> Joby. The doomsday plot won't play out with all dogs, but when it does.. It is doomsday to the slow fella on the end of the leash. Lol.


I hear ya...

I pretty much use OB like you guys are talking, dog gets rewarded for performing, and punished for not... 

but I also address that type of stuff on the first expression of it if possible.

I dont play around with it... the types of dogs I have had, needed to learn very quickly that behavior like that is unacceptable. period.

whether it changes the internal desires of the dog, I cannot say, I am not a canine mind reader.

I just saw it as humorous when JOJO stated this WILL happen...


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## kenn hasling (May 26, 2010)

Thanks everyone foe the comments. I have tried redirecting his attention by making him sit. What has been happening is I end up jerking on the lead hard enough to make him yelp when he doesn't obey. It's not just one jerk, it's as many as it takes to get him to pay attention. I think that maybe he associates the pain with the cars, I don't know. As some have suggested, maybe I should make sit, then reward him with a treat as soon as he sits while the car is passing by. Alittle bit more background on him. Got him as a pup and since day one, he's liked to chase anything that moves. I had success in making him obey with the other items, I.e. Balls, skateboards etc., he lunges at the cars so hard that he is almost horizontal in the air as I am jerking on the lead. Yes he yelps, the pinch collar does make yelp. I'm sure that he senses that I' m going to jerk on the lead so that might raise his enthusiasm or anxiety level.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Kenn,

this would have been much easier to fix under a year of age.

not suggesting this for YOU, but WHEN I correct a dog for lunging or getting aggressive towards something, I use ONE correction, and that correction usually moves the entire dog at least a couple feet, sometimes more like 5 feet. I do that coupled with a loud NO! or whatever word is the no word. I do this to ensure (in my mind) that the dog does not "associate" the pain with something else (like cars), and also to make sure the dog knows that I corrected it, and that I am not playing around, if the dog does a back flip, that is fine with me...


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