# Intimidation Factor



## Ricardo Ashton

I'm aware that in a lot of bite sports appearances count for a lot. And at times even more so in real application of canine security methods, planning and usage/deployment. So this is my question. I'm looking for opinions on what breeds people find has the highest intimidation factor in correlation to effective use as a deterrent based strictly on appearances. Either as personal protection or property guardian.

What breed instilled the most "I ain't f--ckin' with that dog" feeling in you?


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## Faisal Khan

The Belgian Blue Bull intimidates me


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## Brian McQuain

When I used to have APBT's around, they were always a good visual deterrent for others, even though the thought of protecting anything would never enter their minds. Worthless guardians, but most ignorant people see me coming with them and they can't cross the street fast enough.


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## Brian McQuain

Faisal Khan said:


> The Belgian Blue Bull intimidates me


 
Looks like dinner to me


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## Maren Bell Jones

Just my opinion and perception, but of the common breeds, Rottweilers and real dark sable German shepherds (the ones that look rather wolfy). A dark brindle Dutchie will look more intimidating than a Malinois. Interestingly, I used to live on one of the worst streets crimewise in my city (found out after I moved that 3 convicted first degree murderers lived about 300 yards from me). My old husky/Rottweiler mix seemed to intimidate more than the shepherdy looking dogs. *shrug*


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## maggie fraser

Brian McQuain said:


> Looks like dinner to me


Ya know...they must be pretty intimidating to BB cows too, on account of them having to have caesarean (sp) every time around.

I suspect it is all pretty subjective !


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## Brian McQuain

maggie fraser said:


> I suspect it is all pretty subjective !


 
And tasty!


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## maggie fraser

A good and feisty jrt can scare the F*** right out of me.


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## Melissa Thom

Ricardo Ashton said:


> What breed instilled the most "I ain't f--ckin' with that dog" feeling in you?


It's not so much breed but rather situational. The unattended aggressive neglected looking dog tied to a tow cable will always get a greater leeway than an attended well groomed dog sitting in someone's front yard. Just as the unattended dog frothing at the fenceline will get a greater leeway than the dog well tied up or kenneled beyond the fenceline.


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## Maren Bell Jones

LOL, if you asked me what breed scares me most as a vet doing an exam...

-dachshunds and Chihuahuas: often nasty little landsharks that are difficult to restrain due to their size and fragility
-chows/sharpeis, some terriers: can be difficult to read and often not tolerant of a ton of handling. Similar with some of the terriers, like fox terriers. There was an infamous Westie at the vet school that had osteosarcoma (which normal prognosis for living past 1 year is typically pretty poor). This thing was a chainsaw with paws and was too mean to die. Had lived over 3 years past its diagnosis and leg amputation. 
-German shepherds and Rottweilers: the poorly bred nervy ones are often quite dangerous. The well bred ones are a pleasure.
-Siberian huskies: love them, but they can be the biggest babies

But most of all...NASTY CATS! Most are just scared, but legitimately just want to take you out in the worst way. Have heads that can easily swivel around and bite plus their claws. Argh...can I have a dog only practice please? :lol:


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## Dave Colborn

Ricardo Ashton said:


> I'm aware that in a lot of bite sports appearances count for a lot. And at times even more so in real application of canine security methods, planning and usage/deployment. So this is my question. I'm looking for opinions on what breeds people find has the highest intimidation factor in correlation to effective use as a deterrent based strictly on appearances. Either as personal protection or property guardian.
> 
> What breed instilled the most "I ain't f--ckin' with that dog" feeling in you?


I don't have a specific breed, but if you can get them to show teeth, bark and ignore food, you have something. 



I had a neighbor with two great pyrenees. The female still gets between me and the stock no matter what. I get the feeling that after almost three years living there, she'd bite me if I went in the enclosure. The male died at the end of a run straight at the grill of an 18 wheeler to bite it, in a most unfortunate accident. One of the most fearless dogs I have ever seen. Those two dogs have impressed me. 



but really......



*Austin Powers:* Only two things scare me, and one is nuclear war.
*Basil Exposition:* What's the other?
*Austin Powers:* Excuse me?
*Basil Exposition:* What's the other thing that scares you?
*Austin Powers:* Carneys.
*Basil Exposition:* What?
*Austin Powers:* Circus folk. Nomads, you know. Small hands... smell like cabbage.
_--Austin Powers: International Man of Mystery_


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## David Frost

The dogs I take most serious are Pits with thick collars that live in the house that has the same address that is on the warrant I'm just about to serve. 

DFrost


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## Brian Anderson

There is one particular bitch I have worked a few times. Looks smallish, gangly and off balance. But she brings super *intensity* and that in and of itself is intimidating. 

"It aint the dog in the fight its the fight in the dog"


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## leslie cassian

There seems to be something about German Shepherds that people don't like. For some of my friends it's because there was always one in the neighbourhood they grew up in that terrorized all the kids back in the day when leash laws weren't as common as they are now. That fear and mistrust is still there even as adults.

My Mal might be a total badass dog, but most people just think he's a skinny shepherd mix - not so big on the intimidation factor, though he gets points for being tall and pointy eared.

Back when I did canine security, one of the guys I worked with had this cute little shepherd/dobe/? mix. Pretty like a little deer and I remember thinking she wasn't much dog. We were waiting for the elevator in some scummy apartment building one night and when the doors opened, she hunkered down and fired off and every single person on the elevator stood there frozen. We let the doors close and took the next elevator. More to that dog than I would have thought by looking at her.

There was a nice, big, dark Rotti at that company that I worked for a while too. Always felt safe with him at night.


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## Ross Rapoport

For me it's a Rottweiler.

Or any athletic molosser of a certain type: Pit Bulls, Presas, Corsos, et al.


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## Paul R. Konschak

Doberman with cropped ears and a docked tail


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## drew sterner

darker colored dogs seem to be more intimidating to people.


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## Lynn Cheffins

Bouviers, Rotweillers, molloser types - I find them harder to read


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## Ross Rapoport

drew sterner said:


> darker colored dogs seem to be more intimidating to people.


I believe there's been some definitive scientific proof on the matter in support of your point.


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## Dave Martin

Definitely the Rottweilers, Dobermans (cropped and docked) and German Shepherds (the darker the better). Out of these breeds, I think the dogs that have a natural alertness or are trained to "turn on" strike the most fear in people. 

I'd also have put pitbulls with this group but due to their general lack of protection instinct I dropped them a bit lower.


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## Lisa Radcliffe

Dobermann cropped/docked at night (devil dogs!!) daytime alert with a poker face! people just cross the street and get out of the way. Rotts second, or any huge Mastiff type giving that look.


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## Mark Horne

The dark colours have a more intimidating appearance, even my experience over the years arresting the higher level drug dealers many believe the black GSDs are more aggressive and specially bred/trained for the SWAT Teams!

Rottweilers as hard to read, flat ears, no tail (generally), black in colour, and off course some of the worst or best PR on the planet.

I often joke a friendly rottweiler makes an good guard dog because of the deterent value. 

Its doesn't matter if your protecting your back yard or Barack Obama; its still 99% deterent or as I tell young officers on my team you don't have to convince the scumbag you'll kick his ass, just create the element of doubt in his mind that it's going to be too much grief if he starts.

Mark


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## rick smith

Ricardo

i guess the topic might make for interesting discussions, and you probably haven't been surprised at the responses, but if there was one breed or type of dog that was universally recognized as an intimidator you and us would already know it

as stated numerous times already, intimidation level is mostly in the eyes of the potential target or someone who feels like they might be . ALL breeds are intimidating to people with phobias about dogs. No breed is intimidating to a working dog trainer. drug dealers and ghetto scumbags generally think pits and rots are the baddest dogs on the planet......for me, without a doubt, pits have been the easiest breed for me to work with

my dog falls right into the same category as the mal. fawn color, big prick ears, amber eyes that are either cute or intimidating. extreme alertness usually not interpreted as friendly. "mally" type prancing that is interpreted both ways........approached like it's a lab when it's in a down but stops people in their tracks when it pops up into a stand......everyone wants to pet when they come up and everyone runs off when i toss him a pocket tug a few feet away .... iow, total wash

but what i really dislike are people who walk their dog around and enjoy any intimidation it shows other people, as if it was the owners right to do so.

and i find it ironic and a pita, that the better you control your dog in public the more problem lookie loos it attracts to spoil your coffee time :-(

but there is one dog that will ALWAYS look intimidating to normal people : ANY good size punk (of ANY breed) pulling its owner around and snarling at everyone it can see :-(


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## Jackie Lockard

Most people seem to be terrified of anything large and dark colored. I get people terrified (like, crossing the street away from us) of my Lab. But when I had a nervy Mali that actually would bite for someone getting too close people would just waltz up and try to pet him. :roll:

If I'm judging a dog's danger level I'm more inclined to look at the person (read: idiot) holding the leash before factoring in the dog.


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## leslie cassian

Add pointy ears to large and dark and you've got a dog that many people will steer clear of.


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## Ricardo Ashton

Thanks for all the responses. The reason behind the question is twofold. My cousin is interested in getting a dog to do some low level protection work. Basically a deterrent for when her ex gets out of the pokey. He has a tendency to be verbally abusive & a bit on the dumb side(she would ask him to leave & he would try to take an hour before he complies)](*,). So far never a physical threat. So she'd like to get a dog with a high deterrent ability by looks alone, but should still be able to be trained in man stopping.
She has told me she would prefer to not have to deploy the dog, but if she needs to, she will. So far I was originally thinking Dobie / APBT / Rottie, But now I'm really steering towards the Dobie for her since they're middle maintenance, don't shed too much, they're not overly huge, lightning fast, and when cropped they have this kinda evil look, like they just broke out of the devils back yard. I mentioned Dobie's before and she kinda spooked. So that got me thinking I should ask you guys your opinions on this aspect of canine sports.

If she agrees to these options, I'll be starting the search & selection process by weekend.

Again, thanks for the replies, and I feel this may be a good option for her.


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## leslie cassian

Aside from the hair, I would go with a nice GSD.


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## joshua thor




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## rick smith

"lo level protection" is kind of an oxymoron to me 
but anyway
nothing wrong with a doberman IF you can find the right breeder and IF u do a lot of the prep for her ... but sounds like she wants a back up weapon and i would not want to be part of that situation .. my advice would a fast sell phone and maybe a pencil flare, but don't ask me why about the flare or i will get off topic with "sea stories" from east L.A., Calif...  
but much cheaper and much less "manitenance and upkeep" ....


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## Joby Becker

joshua thor said:


>


the most intimidating part of the dog is the eyes in my opinion, when the dog maintains eye contact, or is intense, depending on the character.

Not sure, but I get more of a chill type look behind those goggles, probably not the I will mess you up eyes...

looks like he might be smiling even....


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## Connie Sutherland

:lol:

Oh no, I am sure that most people had a chill run down their spines when they saw that face. 

And surely that's an evil smile! :lol:


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## Lisa Radcliffe

Ricardo Ashton said:


> Thanks for all the responses. The reason behind the question is twofold. My cousin is interested in getting a dog to do some low level protection work. Basically a deterrent for when her ex gets out of the pokey. He has a tendency to be verbally abusive & a bit on the dumb side(she would ask him to leave & he would try to take an hour before he complies)](*,). So far never a physical threat. So she'd like to get a dog with a high deterrent ability by looks alone, but should still be able to be trained in man stopping.
> She has told me she would prefer to not have to deploy the dog, but if she needs to, she will. So far I was originally thinking Dobie / APBT / Rottie, But now I'm really steering towards the Dobie for her since they're middle maintenance, don't shed too much, they're not overly huge, lightning fast, and when cropped they have this kinda evil look, like they just broke out of the devils back yard. I mentioned Dobie's before and she kinda spooked. So that got me thinking I should ask you guys your opinions on this aspect of canine sports.
> 
> If she agrees to these options, I'll be starting the search & selection process by weekend.
> 
> Again, thanks for the replies, and I feel this may be a good option for her.


"low level protection work" could you inlighten me here what is considered Low Level? and will a low level dog be a "man stopper" as well? "I mentioned dobies and she kind of spooked" why would she be interested in a breed that she feels spooked about? I do not know many Personal protection trainers only one, that is very succsessful at it and I have trained with him as well but I can not imagin him asking questions like this. A side note even though your thread was about the Intimidation Factor a breed has. A dobermann is a very expensive breed to own something your cousin may want to factor in along with the cost of the Personal Protection training she will need.


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## Joby Becker

Found this one, if this dog has/had a serious character, I doubt many people would go out of their way to mess with him.


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## Ricardo Ashton

Joby Becker said:


> Found this one, if this dog has/had a serious character, I doubt many people would go out of their way to mess with him.


I think he's kinda cute, in a "I'm gonna enjoy chewin on your @$$ kida way:lol:
He doesn't look like a pure bred APBT, but I could be wrong. Is it just me, or does any one else notice that some APBT's have some cat-like features, appearance wise?


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## Lisa Radcliffe

Joby Becker said:


> Found this one, if this dog has/had a serious character, I doubt many people would go out of their way to mess with him.


 Thats the "look" how about just posting this picture on the front door?


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## Joby Becker

Ricardo Ashton said:


> I think he's kinda cute, in a "I'm gonna enjoy chewin on your @$$ kida way:lol:
> He doesn't look like a pure bred APBT, but I could be wrong. Is it just me, or does any one else notice that some APBT's have some cat-like features, appearance wise?


presa canario....(probably 120 lbs. or so....) 26 inches at the withers, at least that is what the website says ..L(


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## Ricardo Ashton

Still thinking he's mixed. That fur looks a bit long for a Presa.


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## Joby Becker

Ricardo Ashton said:


> Still thinking he's mixed. That fur looks a bit long for a Presa.


lots of different types of presa out there, this dog does not remind me of the newest versions of the dogs...but more of a "rustic" type....


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## brad robert

A reactive rottie will sort most people out quick.


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## Don Turnipseed

St Bernards


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## ann schnerre

Maren Bell Jones said:


> LOL, if you asked me what breed scares me most as a vet doing an exam...
> 
> -dachshunds and Chihuahuas: often nasty little landsharks that are difficult to restrain due to their size and fragility
> -chows/sharpeis, some terriers: can be difficult to read and often not tolerant of a ton of handling. Similar with some of the terriers, like fox terriers. There was an infamous Westie at the vet school that had osteosarcoma (which normal prognosis for living past 1 year is typically pretty poor). This thing was a chainsaw with paws and was too mean to die. Had lived over 3 years past its diagnosis and leg amputation.
> -German shepherds and Rottweilers: the poorly bred nervy ones are often quite dangerous. The well bred ones are a pleasure.
> -Siberian huskies: love them, but they can be the biggest babies
> 
> But most of all...NASTY CATS! Most are just scared, but legitimately just want to take you out in the worst way. Have heads that can easily swivel around and bite plus their claws. Argh...can I have a dog only practice please? :lol:


i'm with you on all of the above, maren (especially CATS). i would add cockers and some beagles as well.

but to the OP's question: a cropped/docked dobie (good luck finding one that won't turn tail and run if someone looks cross-eyed at it) and a GSD. as other ppl stated, preferably a dark one. ppl come to my house, they see Gracie, who's "blond" with a golden temperment nd they just "love" her. they see Ikon, who's a very melanistic blck/tan, and they get back in the vehicle.


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## maggie fraser

Norwegian Elkhound. Particularly the ones who piss on your car wheels whilst still driving.


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## ann schnerre

they're no fun either....and, as you pointed out, not the smartest dog in the world!


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## Ricardo Ashton

Ann, I have considered that factor in regards the Dobie. That's only due to a limited gene pool, and even fewer breeders focusing on man work in their lines. So I'm aware of the challenge. But I think I've gotten a bit lucky. A few friends from work that have close ties with a particular club here have mentioned that there is a man that breeds Dobies for bite work and tracking. I called him today & he told me he has a litter on the ground now about 5 weeks old and wont be breeding again till 2013 God willing. And then he asked what I wanted the pup for. Then he tells me he has a returned 8 month old pup from a previous litter that I might be interested in and that I should come take a look. Says the people that bought the pup wanted a pet and could not manage him. He also said that he doesn't trust this dog, which may or not be a good sign. So I'm off to testing from this evening. I'll keep you all posted as things progress.


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## Jessica Kromer

So.. Why would you put a dog that even the BREEDER doesn't trust in the hands of a girl that gets "spooked" at the mention of owning one? That seems off....


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## ann schnerre

i'm with you on that jessica, but who knows--something may've been lost in famous internet communication...

ricardo--definitely let us know how that goes. i'll be following.

eta: i love Dobies, they ARE "velcro" dogs and can be VERY good! i have owned rescue Dobes, one especially that i thought was (and was) a nervebag, but with marker training and a STABLE home, actually defended me once, by biting, a person who was attacking me. and they don't shed like my beloved GSD, lol.


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## Ryan Venables

for what it's worth...

- A jet black GSD with really light eyes (has the wolf look)
- reverse brindle Dutchie
- really dark Mal w/ light eyes


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## ann schnerre

ryan--i cannot stand a GSD with light eyes. but that's just me (well, besides it doesn't conform to breed standards). of course, my boy doesn't "conform to breed standards" in many respects anyway--his croup is nearly long enough, his shoulder assembly seems near perfect, his topline is level, etc, etc. 

my black-faced boy with his dark eyes seems to intimidate ppl just fine.


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## Skip Morgart

certain rotts.

Eddie vom Hammerbachtel was REAL clear headed and friendly, but a REAL intimidating MFer on the field, and I'm sure off the field if ever needed. I was asked to help out when an extra helper was needed on the field, and that boy had that INTENSE, I WILL DO SOME REAL SERIOUS DAMAGE TO YOU look, and he had the power to back it up. The boy was imported to the US when he was probably 6 or 7. I can't imagine what that boy was like in his prime, but he was the most intense dog I have personally ever seen in person.


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## Joby Becker

Skip Morgart said:


> certain rotts.
> 
> Eddie vom Hammerbachtel was REAL clear headed and friendly, but a REAL intimidating MFer on the field, and I'm sure off the field if ever needed. I was asked to help out when an extra helper was needed on the field, and that boy had that INTENSE, I WILL DO SOME REAL SERIOUS DAMAGE TO YOU look, and he had the power to back it up. The boy was imported to the US when he was probably 6 or 7. I can't imagine what that boy was like in his prime, but he was the most intense dog I have personally ever seen in person.


Sounds like he made quite the impression on you...

I still BELIEVE that quite possibly, one of the top dogs on the planet is just sitting out there, and it *IS* just some regular old rottie, that just loves "his" kids, that some regular family owns, and never worked him...

I have seen a couple rescues even, that were brutal...


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## ann schnerre

NICE review on good rottie, skip! i've seen that look only maybe 4-5 times in real life, and if you're too dumb to catch it, well, you're bitten. it's a look you don't forget if you've ever seen it, that's for sure...


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## rick smith

since cats were brought up more than once i'll give you all some education, because i KNOW feline behavior better than canine behavior

- from a VET standpoint, meaning they have to handle cats that don't want to be handled....the dislike for the aggression is a NO BRAINER....but has nothing to do with being "mean little suckers"
- you CANNOT calm a cat by restraining them and if you try long enuff, you will get bit - not all will calm when held by the scruff

next, cats are NOT domestic animals (fact, not opinion and has nothing to do with "tameness"), and they ARE predators, unlike domestic dogs

if you have one you should already know this, if not u should learn more

there ARE, on rare occasions, some feral cats who WILL intimidate, and WILL actually charge at someone who gets too close to them.....common sense says to steer clear......hard to put a number on it, but VERY small percentage, and i am NOT talking about a sick cat here, just the very few who are very tuff.....i have come across a few (maybe 2-3) in over ten years.....i have trapped them and turned em loose in mountain areas around here - they can really hurt kids, but if they have risen to the top in the city they deserve a shot to keep living, imo

even if you have a wonderful house lap cat cat who is a face licker and have to break up a cat fight outdoors, it will sink its teeth into you just as fast and as deep with tremendous jaw pressure relative to its size

i like them equally as well as dogs but what i particularly like is that unlike canines, they have retained their predator behaviors and hunting skills despite thousands of years hanging around us humans

end of rant 

OT : do they have any intimidation factor from breed to breed ..... doubtful imo


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## Matt Grosch

for looks alone.....I big dark bandog (presa or cane corso) dark with light/gold eyes looks the 'scariest'. Then some of the big blocky (often red) pitbulls.......maybe a big johnson AB that has some junkyard ugly look to him. Best mix of a dog that might have some ability plus looks intimidating would be a rottie followed by a big GSD (czech most likely, like in Hostel 2). try to beat these! http://www.gotdogsonline.com/cane-c...s-puppies-rescue/pictures/cane-corso-0036.jpg http://www.abouttimecanecorso.com/images/Chaos.jpg http://www.dooziedog.com/dog_breeds/american_bulldog/images/full/American-Bulldog-4.jpg wild card http://listverse.files.wordpress.com/2009/09/timber_wolf.jpg


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## Matt Grosch

how do you embed the links as pics?


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## Joby Becker

Matt Grosch said:


> how do you embed the links as pics?


use the little icon above the posting box that looks like a letter with a stamp on it...

here is a pretty intimidating looking female from the same kennel...


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## Matt Grosch




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## brad robert

Skip Morgart said:


> certain rotts.
> 
> Eddie vom Hammerbachtel was REAL clear headed and friendly, but a REAL intimidating MFer on the field, and I'm sure off the field if ever needed. I was asked to help out when an extra helper was needed on the field, and that boy had that INTENSE, I WILL DO SOME REAL SERIOUS DAMAGE TO YOU look, and he had the power to back it up. The boy was imported to the US when he was probably 6 or 7. I can't imagine what that boy was like in his prime, but he was the most intense dog I have personally ever seen in person.


 
Interesting story.Up until a few years ago i regularly trained at the local rottweiler club with my female rott and in the couple of years there i came across a couple of dogs that had no protection work at all and were very serious dogs these dogs would take it to you for just eyeing them off and had the mentallity of pure dominance both were male and large and were pretty hairy to be around especially when one took me looking at him as an insult.Hard breed to go past as a protector especially a big male.


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## Ricardo Ashton

Jessica, all dogs are (when you get down to the basic mechanics of their train of thought) the same or at the very least they have more than a few things in common. One only has to know (not have an idea) of how dogs process information/stimuli and as a result react to it, & thats 1/3 of the battle won. Such an animal may have had abuse or nerve or dominance issues that an owner/handler may or not recognize that would bring unexpected reactions. It boils down to learning the dog, and the dog learning its master/handler and the development of a level trust between the two. Once a trusting & symbiotic relationship can be developed between the two, most other issues can be sorted out with time, even fear.

Ok. So I tested the boy last night. I was somewhat impressed but not enough to take him, and the breeder was somewhat surprised. And I explained why to him. This dog had been abused by his previous owner, so now he's hand shy. A hand shy protection dog is of no use to me or anyone IMO. I entered the kennel & the dog took approached with caution at first, then a stand off between us for about 5 minutes with him looking for an angle to get at me. I confirmed his hand shy condtion pretty quick. I stood still with him all riled up with my arms out, like a scarecrow. He did not advance, just focused on my hands. The moment I moved my hand while in the scarecrow position, this dog took off like a bat out of hell then came back. Did this 5 times & got the same result every time. This alone rules him out as a candidate in my book. 
My assessment is that he is dominant and very opportunistic but unfortunately he is severely hand shy. He recognizes situations very quickly and recovers even faster. This one can be managed and trained out of these issues and do the job, but it'll depend on how well a person bonds with him, who's doing the training and how its done.
But unfortunately, time costraints do not allow for me to undertake this entire long process. So the hunt continues.


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## Jessica Kromer

Ricardo Ashton said:


> Jessica, all dogs are (when you get down to the basic mechanics of their train of thought) the same or at the very least they have more than a few things in common. One only has to know (not have an idea) of how dogs process information/stimuli and as a result react to it, & thats 1/3 of the battle won. Such an animal may have had abuse or nerve or dominance issues that an owner/handler may or not recognize that would bring unexpected reactions. It boils down to learning the dog, and the dog learning its master/handler and the development of a level trust between the two. Once a trusting & symbiotic relationship can be developed between the two, most other issues can be sorted out with time, even fear.


That is all too philosophical for me. 

The working line Dobe breeder that KNOWS the lines (or should) and is quite comfortable with them, is uncomfortable with a PUP that was returned to him. The buyer is scared of Dobermans (spooked anyway) and from all that has been described, is not super knowledgeable about dogs (if she were, she should be picking out her own dog). And you thought this could be a good fit? #-o

Hey, I am not above trying to deal with tough pups that have been returned. I am not against a dog that is hard to deal with. But I am against putting an inexperienced buyer with a nervy, untrained, dog that even the BREEDER does not trust. 

Get the woman a young adult male Rott or GSD that puts up a good threat display and get her a shotgun. That combo will stop nearly anyone from coming in the yard.


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## catherine hardigan

Personally, I would skip pitbulls. Many lack the size to be truly intimidating, and they are so popular these days that people have become desensitized to them. This is especially true since so many of them are sweet, friendly dogs.

For looks alone I would go with a rott or cropped/docked doberman as a first choice. Second choice would be a darkly pigmented German Shepherd.


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## Ricardo Ashton

Jessica Kromer said:


> *And you thought this could be a good fit? * #-o


You should have kept reading.



Jessica Kromer said:


> *Hey, I am not above trying to deal with tough pups that have been returned. I am not against a dog that is hard to deal with. But I am against putting an inexperienced buyer with a nervy, untrained, dog that even the BREEDER does not trust.*


That's why there's an actual in person assessment & evaluation BEFORE an acquisition, instead of just a word of mouth from some nut saying "Ok, this one's perfect for you or "Not that one he's too weird/not wired right" or just calling someone and have them deliver a dog sight unseen*You should have really kept reading* 



Jessica Kromer said:


> Get the woman a young adult male Rott or GSD that puts up a good threat display and get her a shotgun. That combo will stop nearly anyone from coming in the yard.


And what use is such a dog, if things do escalate? Most threat dogs that are placed in the face of a true aggressor(one of those few persons that will actually run up on it) usually either lie down in fear/submission & watch their handlers get their asses handed to them, or(more commonly) run away as though their life depended on it. If someone seriously intends to do you harm, and they see you have a dog & a shotgun, whats to stop them from getting a gun of their own & waiting quietly for the chance to ventilate your skull? 

I do appreciate your opinion, it's just that I'm trying to look at all available options and bring them to her so she can make an educated decision, that's all Hell, I may just ask her to move in with me & the wife in the end if I find that would be best.


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## leslie cassian

What use is an 8 month old Dobe pup? 

If the situation is so dire that she needs protection right away, buy her a gun. If the dog is just supposed to be a deterrent, than any intimidating dog will do, even a big, friendly shelter rescue with a loud bark. If she really needs a trained protection dog right away, then I don't think testing breeder returns is the way to go - I would be looking at titled or retired sport dogs.


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## Jessica Kromer

Ricardo Ashton said:


> You should have kept reading.
> 
> 
> That's why there's an actual in person assessment & evaluation BEFORE an acquisition, instead of just a word of mouth from some nut saying "Ok, this one's perfect for you or "Not that one he's too weird/not wired right" or just calling someone and have them deliver a dog sight unseen*You should have really kept reading*


I did. The dog turns out to be a nerve bag. It is not a good fit. Big suprise.

*I* would have never gone out there to test the dog. The buyer is "spooked" by a Dobe, and if that is the case I would NOT put a dog that SHE is uncomfortable with in her hands. She needs to have trust, confidence and control when the dog is at its worst. Since the Dobe is a breed that has unfortunately fallen in to decline w/re to nerves, it would be somewhat low on a list of breeds to look at at all, and even lower if the buyer is not comfortable with them in the first place. 

IF the pup was a rock solid dog that just needed basic training then I _might_ have tested it. But the BREEDER said he did not trust the thing. That, with the breed concerns made that a no deal for me. But hey, you are only out time, right!  




> And what use is such a dog, if things do escalate? Most threat dogs that are placed in the face of a true aggressor(one of those few persons that will actually run up on it) usually either lie down in fear/submission & watch their handlers get their asses handed to them, or(more commonly) run away as though their life depended on it.


 Of course it will. But that threat display will scare 90% of the POSs enough to make them stop at the property line (especially if that property line is a chain link fence that the dog can run up to). The shotgun that she steps out on the porch with to "greet" the threat with will scare the other 9.99% of the rest, and make them think twice. 

Lets face it. Most people just can't handle a PPD period. It is a life style. There is a TON of liability and a TON of stress that goes with it. If she wants to change everything about how she lives her life, more power to her. But putting a trained (or in this case untrained) PPD in the hands of a woman that is "spooked" by a Dobe seems irresponsible. If a shotgun and a big barking dog doesn't stop the POS at the door, then she needs to move out of the area and start a new life where this ex of hers can't find her. 

Besides all that, you were asking about a dog with "intimidation factor" not the ability to actually DO PPD work. Most find a Rott or a GSD just as intimidating as a Dobe and if the client is afraid of Dobes herself, then why not go for a breed that is more comfortable for her?




> If someone seriously intends to do you harm, and they see you have a dog & a shotgun, whats to stop them from getting a gun of their own & waiting quietly for the chance to ventilate your skull?


 And what's to stop them from putting a hole in the dog first? The person that isn't scared by a big barking Rott or GSD and a shotgun won't be scared of a PPD either. 

I get it. I use a PPD for work all the time. He is there as a deterrent first. The .45 is there as a deterrent second. Either of these fail then he can have at them. But by God they get the opportunity to run first. 



> I do appreciate your opinion, it's just that I'm trying to look at all available options and bring them to her so she can make an educated decision, that's all Hell, I may just ask her to move in with me & the wife in the end if I find that would be best.


 Maybe she should. Or you can give her one of your dogs :wink:


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## Ricardo Ashton

That's an idea.


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## Lisa Radcliffe

Jessica Kromer said:


> I did. The dog turns out to be a nerve bag. It is not a good fit. Big suprise.
> 
> *I* would have never gone out there to test the dog. The buyer is "spooked" by a Dobe, and if that is the case I would NOT put a dog that SHE is uncomfortable with in her hands. She needs to have trust, confidence and control when the dog is at its worst. Since the Dobe is a breed that has unfortunately fallen in to decline w/re to nerves, it would be somewhat low on a list of breeds to look at at all, and even lower if the buyer is not comfortable with them in the first place.
> 
> IF the pup was a rock solid dog that just needed basic training then I _might_ have tested it. But the BREEDER said he did not trust the thing. That, with the breed concerns made that a no deal for me. But hey, you are only out time, right!
> 
> 
> Of course it will. But that threat display will scare 90% of the POSs enough to make them stop at the property line (especially if that property line is a chain link fence that the dog can run up to). The shotgun that she steps out on the porch with to "greet" the threat with will scare the other 9.99% of the rest, and make them think twice.
> 
> Lets face it. Most people just can't handle a PPD period. It is a life style. There is a TON of liability and a TON of stress that goes with it. If she wants to change everything about how she lives her life, more power to her. But putting a trained (or in this case untrained) PPD in the hands of a woman that is "spooked" by a Dobe seems irresponsible. If a shotgun and a big barking dog doesn't stop the POS at the door, then she needs to move out of the area and start a new life where this ex of hers can't find her.
> 
> Besides all that, you were asking about a dog with "intimidation factor" not the ability to actually DO PPD work. Most find a Rott or a GSD just as intimidating as a Dobe and if the client is afraid of Dobes herself, then why not go for a breed that is more comfortable for her?
> 
> 
> And what's to stop them from putting a hole in the dog first? The person that isn't scared by a big barking Rott or GSD and a shotgun won't be scared of a PPD either.
> 
> I get it. I use a PPD for work all the time. He is there as a deterrent first. The .45 is there as a deterrent second. Either of these fail then he can have at them. But by God they get the opportunity to run first.
> 
> Maybe she should. Or you can give her one of your dogs :wink:


 Very well said!


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## Joby Becker

The chances of an 8 month old doberman having any type of functionality for this use is *.1%*. (Disclaimer: margin of error being +/- *1%*


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## Tony Hahn

Couple things for you to consider-

First of all an 8 month Dobermann is a baby. Personally, I wouldn’t expect much even at a year. Between ‘fear periods’ or whatever you want to call them and a general lack of maturity, it’s unrealistic to expect much at such a young age. For a pup like that, the pedigree and breeders opinion are much better indicators of the dogs potential than what you can get from a brief assessment or test. It’s still a crap shoot though because the pup may not have inherited his pedigree’s traits and the breeder can be wrong. 

Secondly, what you are referring to as ‘hand shy’ does not mean the pup was abused. Of course it may have been…. but jumping to the conclusion that the pup was abused because it is hyper aware of hands is a faulty conclusion. It may just have the intelligence/instinct/whatever to realize that a human’s hands are dangerous. The pup could be thin nerved; on the other hand it may just be suspicious. Is there a difference? IMO yes, there is. Old time Dobermann people claim that suspicion was a breed characteristic. While it would be unreasonable to expect an 8 month old Dobie to show you much fight or defense- a suspicious nature would be evident. How would a suspicious puppy act?- A lot like a thin nerved, fearful one. Is it possible to figure out what’s inside the pup’s head? I don’t think so, not during a short test or assessment, certainly not at 8 months and probably not even at a year. 

My point isn’t to get you rethinking you decision to pass on the pup. It’s already been pointed that there are other reasons it may have been a poor choice. I just wanted to correct the misconception regarding the conclusion being drawn about ‘hand shyness’. For what it’s worth, as a single stand alone issue, I don’t think the ‘hand shy’ reaction you saw from an 8 month old Dobermann means much at all in relation to the pup’s suitability for protection work as a mature adult.


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## Debbie Skinner

Some Beaucerons have an intensity about them that will intimidate.


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## Timothy Stacy

David Frost said:


> The dogs I take most serious are Pits with thick collars that live in the house that has the same address that is on the warrant I'm just about to serve.
> 
> DFrost


WTF, are you serious?You watch Cops too much! Haven't you been behind a desk for the past umpteen years?
Those thick collars will do it for me. How bout the spikes or padlocks? I'm shivering in terror!


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## David Frost

Timothy Stacy said:


> WTF, are you serious?You watch Cops too much! Haven't you been behind a desk for the past umpteen years?
> Those thick collars will do it for me. How bout the spikes or padlocks? I'm shivering in terror!


I did my last high risk warrant in 2009. Since I'm not exactly sure how long "umpteen" is, you could be right. Even so, somethings just aren't easily forgotten. Only time I'm behind the desk now though is when I'm not training. Which actually will be 3 days next week. Your last high risk warrant was when?

ETA: I don't about " watching too much cops" I do enjoy it though. My heart rate barely increases from the safety of my easy chair. 

DFrost


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## Skip Morgart

David Frost said:


> I did my last high risk warrant in 2009. Since I'm not exactly sure how long "umpteen" is, you could be right. Even so, somethings just aren't easily forgotten. Only time I'm behind the desk now though is when I'm not training. Which actually will be 3 days next week. Your last high risk warrant was when?
> 
> ETA: I don't about " watching too much cops" I do enjoy it though. My heart rate barely increases from the safety of my easy chair.
> 
> DFrost


 
Now you got me curious about the "umpteen" ...what's a good number for that? Or is it like one of those "polar" expressions like "always" and "never" that the ex-wife used in a "discussion" to badly attempt to prove a point. Well, "badly" is subjective I guess. My point is, if you have a valid point, you should be able to communicate it's merits so that it's easier for me to give your view the validity you are hoping for. Naw, screw it, some people just have nothing concrete to add, but that doesn't stop them.


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## ann schnerre

hey guys "umpteen" is anything more than 15 or 20 or more. or sometimes more than 5. depends. but it's ALWAYS more than 4. hope that helps  and that's all the "concrete" i have to add.


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## Skip Morgart

ann schnerre said:


> hey guys "umpteen" is anything more than 15 or 20 or more. or sometimes more than 5. depends. but it's ALWAYS more than 4. hope that helps  and that's all the "concrete" i have to add.


 
Ok...anything between 5 (including 5) and any number above 5. Yep, now I wonder why that wasn't one of the ex's favorite terms too. Got it.


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## David Frost

ann schnerre said:


> hey guys "umpteen" is anything more than 15 or 20 or more. or sometimes more than 5. depends. but it's ALWAYS more than 4. hope that helps  and that's all the "concrete" i have to add.



Ok, ok, so if umpteen is always more than 4, then I've not yet been out of that business for umpteen years. hmmm, somehow that makes me feel younger. Thanks

DFrost


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## ann schnerre

anything i can do to help, david 

as long as Roger doesn't bring you umpteen sunday papers, haha.


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## Ryan Venables

Joby Becker said:


> use the little icon above the posting box that looks like a letter with a stamp on it...
> 
> here is a pretty intimidating looking female from the same kennel...


I change my vote to this... I'd cross the street if I saw her.

I think it's the eyes... dark dogs w/ that yellowish look in their eye freak me out. My Mal pup has lighter eyes, and he can give you a look like he's attempting to look at your soul to see what you're made of.


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## Timothy Stacy

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/_/dict.aspx?word=umpteen

Skip, who are you? Better yet pay particular attention to this since you are a non factor here and since your child like approach to the conversation has me as relaxed as this caterpillar. Or even as relaxed as Don T. Makes David while sitting in his chair. DAvid, you were the first in the door I bet!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QgbntWU7pG8&feature=youtube_gdata_player


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## David Frost

Timothy Stacy said:


> http://www.thefreedictionary.com/_/dict.aspx?word=umpteen
> 
> DAvid, you were the first in the door I bet!
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QgbntWU7pG8&feature=youtube_gdata_player


Nahh, they don't let old men on point. 

DFrost


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## Bob Scott

I had an answer for the op....but I'm 66 yrs old. I forgot what I was going to say. :twisted: :lol:


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## Chris McDonald

Im amazed so many people are answering a question so stupid!.... or maybe I am the stupid one for thinking this question is so stupid? does anyone else think it is stupid? I better go think about this a bit.


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## Timothy Stacy

Bob Scott said:


> I had an answer for the op....but I'm 66 yrs old. I forgot what I was going to say. :twisted: :lol:


Although dementia is far more common in the geriatric population, it can occur before the age of 65, in which case it is termed "early onset dementia.
Story telling is also common to fill gaps. 
You seem to be with it...sometimes


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## Connie Sutherland

Timothy Stacy said:


> .... early onset dementia. .... Story telling is also common to fill gaps.



I've been practicing.


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## Connie Sutherland

Chris McDonald said:


> Im amazed so many people are answering a question so stupid!.... or maybe I am the stupid one for thinking this question is so stupid? does anyone else think it is stupid? I better go think about this a bit.




OTOH, how many people are really answering it. :lol:


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## Ricardo Ashton

Connie Sutherland said:


> OTOH, how many people are really answering it. :lol:


Quite a few have \\/




Chris McDonald said:


> Im amazed so many people are answering a question so stupid!.... or maybe I am the stupid one for thinking this question is so stupid? does anyone else think it is stupid? I better go think about this a bit.


What do you mean "maybe"


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## Ricardo Ashton

Problem solved. She will be taking my boy Viktor home tonight. Thanks for all the feedback.


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## Connie Sutherland

Ricardo Ashton said:


> Quite a few have \\/


Recent posts were what I was laughing at .... posts with nothing at all to do with the O.P.

You (and your question) are not being called stupid.  It was the whole new unrelated sub-thread*. :lol:




*meaning the "umpteen" Q&A :lol:


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## Timothy Stacy

David Frost said:


> ETA: I don't about " watching too much cops" I do enjoy it though. My heart rate barely increases from the safety of my easy chair.
> 
> DFrost


I'm sure waiting till everything is all clear but still being on site is just as exilerating for the camera guys on cops


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## David Frost

Timothy Stacy said:


> I'm sure waiting till everything is all clear but still being on site is just as exilerating for the camera guys on cops


It is actually. After they sign the indemnification forms, put on the required vest, they do feel a bit of a rush. 

DFrost


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## Timothy Stacy

David Frost said:


> It is actually. After they sign the indemnification forms, put on the required vest, they do feel a bit of a rush.
> 
> DFrost


Just imagine how they would feel if they had to walk by a pitbull with s THICK COLLAR ???
Cardiac arrest I assume!
Snort snort....ah ....deep Breath


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## David Frost

Timothy Stacy said:


> Just imagine how they would feel if they had to walk by a pitbull with s THICK COLLAR ???
> Cardiac arrest I assume!
> Snort snort....ah ....deep Breath


I don't have to imagine it. Although, I don't recall having a cardiac arrest. But I'm sure as many times as you've served warrants, you know the thrill. 

DFrost


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## Timothy Stacy

David Frost said:


> I don't have to imagine it. Although, I don't recall having a cardiac arrest. But I'm sure as many times as you've served warrants, you know the thrill.
> 
> DFrost


I'd love to talk with your inferiors at the dept, bet I'd get a lot of :-\" this 8-[ this [-( this :-k and lots of this:-s and above all else :roll: when I mention David said ......


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## David Frost

chuckle, chuckle

DFrost


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## Timothy Stacy

David Frost said:


> chuckle, chuckle
> 
> DFrost


Glad I got a chuckle out of you.
My feelings. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xl5h_EUMa5s&feature=youtube_gdata_player


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## Ricardo Ashton

Just teasing, that's all Connie . I'm only serious when training. :mrgreen:


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