# Giardia



## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

A friend of mine whose puppy I babysat last week called to tell me that his pup tested positive for Giardia during a routine vet visit. When the pup was here, I didn't notice anything wrong - his stool and appetite were both normal. The owner said the same - the pup's stool is normal and he's acting normal as well. The pup was generally isolated from my dogs while here, and used a potty area that my dogs don't frequent. Per usual, I picked up the stool as it occurred.

My vet's office is closed for the afternoon due to the snow, so I thought I'd ask here to see what y'all knew about Giardia. Do you think I should test my dogs for it too? One of my dogs is a littermate to the above pup. None of my dogs are acting ill in any way, but neither is the above mentioned puppy. I read that dogs can be carriers of this parasite here:
http://www.workingdogs.com/doc0119.htm

Does this mean that dogs are not routinely treated unless they display symptoms? The owner of the pup said the vet is recommending treatment for the pup, and testing for all other dogs in his house, regardless of whether they are symptomatic or not. Thoughts?


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

_"A friend of mine whose puppy I babysat last week called to tell me that his pup tested positive for Giardia during a routine vet visit. ..... his stool and appetite were both normal. The owner said the same - the pup's stool is normal and he's acting normal ... "_


I guess my first question would be, how was the tested-positive dog tested? Were cysts or trophozoites identified in the feces?

A "routine vet visit," for a pup who was seemingly healthy and had no G.I. symptoms, included a Fecal Coliform Test?


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Konnie Hein said:


> A friend of mine whose puppy I babysat last week called to tell me that his pup tested positive for Giardia during a routine vet visit. When the pup was here, I didn't notice anything wrong - his stool and appetite were both normal. The owner said the same - the pup's stool is normal and he's acting normal as well. The pup was generally isolated from my dogs while here, and used a potty area that my dogs don't frequent. Per usual, I picked up the stool as it occurred.
> 
> My vet's office is closed for the afternoon due to the snow, so I thought I'd ask here to see what y'all knew about Giardia. Do you think I should test my dogs for it too? One of my dogs is a littermate to the above pup. None of my dogs are acting ill in any way, but neither is the above mentioned puppy. I read that dogs can be carriers of this parasite here:
> http://www.workingdogs.com/doc0119.htm
> ...


You can treat with Panacur (can buy the horse paste online at www.horse.com) for about $5/tube. Treat for 5-7 days. I treat if a pup(s) in a litter show symptoms. I treat the whole litter and mom if bitch is still with them. Most adult dogs have a tolerance, but I've noticed after a rain the dogs can get symptoms. You can also treat with Flagyl, but it's not tolerated as well. It can be bought online as well at Revival Animal Supply under medicine for fish (fish antibiotics don't require a prescription).

Symptoms would be smelly, loose stools.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Doctors Foster & Smith do a good overview:

http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?c=2+2102&aid=739

Note the diagnosis section. The no-symptoms part is not at all uncommon, but the casual routine diagnosis of the puppy you babysat struck me as odd.


Maybe Maren will stop by.


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Connie Sutherland said:


> _"_
> I guess my first question would be, how was the tested-positive dog tested? Were cysts or trophozoites identified in the feces?


I don't know, I'd have to ask. 



> A "routine vet visit," for a pup who was seemingly healthy and had no G.I. symptoms, included a Fecal Coliform Test?


That's what my friend said. He took the pup in for vaccination, and they requested a stool sample to check for worms and giardia. 

I also remember several months ago having a conversation with a different friend whose vet said he recommends the ELISA Giardia test on a yearly basis, regardless of symptoms. Maybe that's becoming a more common practice? My vet has never recommended it.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Konnie Hein said:


> .... recommends the ELISA Giardia test on a yearly basis, regardless of symptoms. Maybe that's becoming a more common practice? My vet has never recommended it.



Ohhh. Maybe so. I had not heard/read of that either.


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

And thanks, Debbie, for your treatment info.


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Konnie Hein said:


> And thanks, Debbie, for your treatment info.


I rely much more on myself to diagnose Cocci or Giardia. After awhile "your eyes and nose" just know. Panacur is very safe. I routinely treat all pups routinely for parasites rotating between Panacur and Strongid/Nemex. I do the same to European imports and rescues that come in. 

I recommend the book: Veterinary Drug Handbook by Plumb. It has dosage, precautions, etc. of all the common animal drugs.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Konnie Hein said:


> I don't know, I'd have to ask.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Elisa test is great for checking for Giardia, you can also through the test have other things checked such as lyme disease, rocky mountain spider fever. Part of my dogs annual full blown physical is a Elisa test. Panacur is the best way to knock it out. If one dog test postive for it its could to have the entire crew ran through the panacur for a seven day period. Giardia is something that will always show positive hence the reason for the Elisa test. It gos dormit in the system and is checked in numbers to see if there has been flare ups. Its also something that could of been recieved in the past from the mother or a exposure in another location. Defently pour straight bleach where ever that dog did his business picking it up won't guarantee anything.


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Harry Keely said:


> Defently pour straight bleach where ever that dog did his business picking it up won't guarantee anything.


He did his business along our driveway in the woods. I can't imagine pouring bleach on the soil there, and I don't think I could even identify where he pooped at this point (it's under snow). 

I guess my overall question is if I should bother treating all my dogs when they show no signs/symptoms of having Giardia.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Konnie Hein said:


> He did his business along our driveway in the woods. I can't imagine pouring bleach on the soil there, and I don't think I could even identify where he pooped at this point (it's under snow).
> 
> I guess my overall question is if I should bother treating all my dogs when they show no signs/symptoms of having Giardia.


Gotcha missed the snow part. Problem with Giardia is it can remain a under lying issue and sometimes show negative and other times show positive. It probally wouldn't hurt to have your dogs checked or one of them at the least ( USAR K-9 ) checked Konnie. I would also recommend every 3-4 months for the next year. have your dogs or service dog checked to be on the safe side. Better safe than sorry just my opinion though. Something to think about to is Giardia is something picked up through the dogs drinking standing water or in streams or rivers .Good luck to you on this matter.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

I'd way rather test than just treat. For almost anything.

JMO.


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Thanks for the info, guys. I'll have my dogs tested and go from there. It's just something I've not dealt with before and I appreciate the input.

So, Harry, the Elisa test gives a range - such as the levels are above X and the dog should be treated, or they are below X and shouldn't be? That's what I'm having trouble wrapping my head around - treating a dog that is asymptomatic - so if the test gives a range, I'd feel better about it.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Konnie Hein said:


> Thanks for the info, guys. I'll have my dogs tested and go from there. It's just something I've not dealt with before and I appreciate the input.
> 
> So, Harry, the Elisa test gives a range - such as the levels are above X and the dog should be treated, or they are below X and shouldn't be? That's what I'm having trouble wrapping my head around - treating a dog that is asymptomatic - so if the test gives a range, I'd feel better about it.


No see once you have lyme disease for a example, you will always have it it just gos dormit. Giardia is the same way. Now the Elisa test is a test that measures levels. If the levels are low enough they will show negative in a test ( but remain dormit ), if the numbers are up the test should read positive, but from what I was told by the CDC is that it still has happen on occasion that the test has given false readings just like any other breathing animal / human test. Better to test than not before taking any further precautions.


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## Candy Eggert (Oct 28, 2008)

http://www.vin.com/VINDBPub/SearchPB/Proceedings/PR05000/PR00425.htm

Testing methods in the above mentioned link.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

I talked to a vet last night about two pups he said had giardia. He said they were totally asymtomatic and he gave the people fenbendozole in granules. I talked briefly about that since Al, I believe had mentioned it previously. I am going to get that and try it. This vet said I may be able to get the bulk granules. These fo9lks have been walking the dogs in forest land and they have been drinking from creeks, but, I also swim them in creeks and take them to the lake.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

If it's in the area, I'd test and do evaluations of the fecals for all the dogs in the household. Giardia is NOT fun for humans to get (they call it "beaver fever" in humans and it can last for weeks!). Also make sure the poop is picked and hands are washed, as it's a zoonotic disease and a public health concern.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Thinking back a few years ago, I bet Ive had it. Npot to do with giardia but I chew tobacco for a reason also. Those old stories of cutting off a plug of "Hard Times" were more than stories....they actually did it because it would clean the worms out.


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> I talked to a vet last night about two pups he said had giardia. He said they were totally asymtomatic and he gave the people fenbendozole in granules. I talked briefly about that since Al, I believe had mentioned it previously. I am going to get that and try it. This vet said I may be able to get the bulk granules. These fo9lks have been walking the dogs in forest land and they have been drinking from creeks, but, I also swim them in creeks and take them to the lake.


It's in a prescription for dogs but under the brand names Panacur and Safeguard can be purchased for horses and livestock at feed stores and online. I always keep it on hand for new arrivals (boarding, rescues, imports).


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

I saw that Debbie, I am going to be in town and see if I can pick it up there or possibly order it from the local feed store. If not, I will have to go to the internet....or are you talking about the granules? If so, where can I find them?


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> I saw that Debbie, I am going to be in town and see if I can pick it up there or possibly order it from the local feed store. If not, I will have to go to the internet....or are you talking about the granules? If so, where can I find them?


Wasn't sure if you saw it was the same stuff as I'm in the habit of calling it by the brand names. Best price I've found for the tube wormer is www.horse.com and buy the generic big tubes in a 5 pack. I just orders some last week as I was getting low. Also, the Strongid "generic" is about $3/tube. That's the same as Nemex or Parantel Palmate. I like the tube as it's like a little cocking gun and easy to administer the paste. The liquid is messier. You'll probably pay double at the feedstore, but it will be faster. Oh, sometimes Walmart carries it as well in their horse section.

Panacur is VERY safe and is safe at even 10x the dosage during prolonged usage.


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Konnie,

Not that I suggest this for you...just a story.

One of the dogs that works with us at the ski hill was diagnosed with giardia last year. His symptoms were intermitant, and I don't recall if it was diagnosed by a test, or the vet just thought it was likely. 

The dog was prescribed antibiotics, I do not remember what kind. Our dogs share kennels at times and the share same working environment. It never occured to me to treat or test my dog for giardia....so I didn't. Nor did any of the other handlers. No other dogs came down with it.


That said, I do not have kids at home.

I have had giardia before, as has my husband (pre dog ownership), in Africa. It also used to get a couple people a year when I worked in bush camps as a tree planter. It is one thing when you have to take some uncomfortable extra bathroom trips...but when you burp or barf and it smell like the worse egg/sulpher sh** EVER...you have it BAD:-&:-o


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

OMG.

Then I had it in Bermuda 20 or so years ago.

I never heard that particular symptom.

You just solved a mystery of 20 years.

It lasted about 4 days with that symptom, came back a month later for 2 days, never came back again.


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Jennifer Coulter said:


> Konnie,
> 
> Not that I suggest this for you...just a story.
> 
> ...


Thanks for posting your experience with it. Something to consider for sure. 

And, we're huge on hand-washing here, but there's only so much a person can do with a 4 1/2 year old. With horses and dogs, plus living in a rural area, you can probably imagine some of the God-awful things I've seen her put (or try to put) in her mouth. Yuck. Why didn't somebody warn me about this before I had a kid? :-&


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## Sarah Atlas (Dec 15, 2008)

Konnie,
I would treat all your dogs if the visiting dog was positive. It is highly contageios. I had my new pup checked twice when he came over from europe. 

Not sure if it affects people though


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Connie Sutherland said:


> OMG.
> 
> Then I had it in Bermuda 20 or so years ago.
> 
> ...


If you had it then, then you still have it, in humans friends of my mother had it for almost a year and never picked up on it. Hospital doctors on LINY said we will get it knocked out but it will be dormit in your system and could cause a flair up, like I have been explaining through out this whole thread.](*,)


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## Denise Gatlin (Dec 28, 2009)

I agree with Harry, better to be safe than sorry. Giardia thrives in our area because it is always moist and warm. It lies dormant and with the first heavy rains, regenerates from the soil and if your dog drinks it, it is a done deal. My unfortunate experience started with the rescues (23 extra GSDs) that I fostered right after Katrina/Rita. Dogs had been drinking that nasty water after the storms in NOLA and south Louisiana. Needless to say, I have treated those areas of my yard over and over again and have now just closed them off. The only treatment of success that I have found for the dogs is Metronidazole or Ketonidazole along with Sulfamethazone. I usually give a round of Panacur prior to this lengthy treatment. You will see quite a fast response at first but do not stop the treatment as the symptoms can reoccur quickly. Metronidazole is used for aquarium fish and yes you can purchase it reasonably online from Revival, etc. Giardia is nothing to play with. Needless to say, I chose to no long foster rescue dogs.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Harry Keely said:


> If you had it then, then you still have it, in humans friends of my mother had it for almost a year and never picked up on it. Hospital doctors on LINY said we will get it knocked out but it will be dormit in your system and could cause a flair up, like I have been explaining through out this whole thread.](*,)



I caught that. 

I made a note to ask my doctor at my "birthday annual" next month about whether we should now make sure I'm not a symptomless Giardia Mary.


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Ispoke with my vet this morning regarding giardia. He said he probably wouldn't treat an asymptomatic, healthy dog, even if it tests positive.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Konnie Hein said:


> Ispoke with my vet this morning regarding giardia. He said he probably wouldn't treat an asymptomatic, healthy dog, even if it tests positive.


 
If the dog test positive he wouldn't treat it --- WHAT ??? ---. Hate to say it but time to get another vet obviously hes not to swift but once again JMO. [-X


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Harry - I disagree with you.

My vet is a very responsible professional. I've been through a slew of vets, and he's definitely my favorite. I also spoke (via email) with a friend of mine who is a vet. She said basically the same thing.

The AVMA's site was a little vague regarding treatment recommendations for Giardia (at least that I could find on-line). However, I did find this site which seems to be current and based on factual information. Maybe Maren can comment on it too.
http://www.capcvet.org/recommendations/giardia.html
The site states:


> "CAPC recommends testing _symptomatic_ (intermittently or consistently diarrheic) dogs and cats "


and


> "the majority opinion of the Board is asymptomatic dogs and cats may not require treatment."


and


> "Human infection from a dog or cat source has not been conclusively demonstrated in North America. Dogs and cats are not treated for the purpose of preventing zoonotic transmission."


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## Sue DiCero (Sep 2, 2006)

Debbie Skinner said:


> I rely much more on myself to diagnose Cocci or Giardia. After awhile "your eyes and nose" just know. Panacur is very safe. I routinely treat all pups routinely for parasites rotating between Panacur and Strongid/Nemex. I do the same to European imports and rescues that come in.
> 
> I recommend the book: Veterinary Drug Handbook by Plumb. It has dosage, precautions, etc. of all the common animal drugs.



We do the same. On puppies/dogs we sell, we require a vet visit with fecal done within 48 hours. But, we treat all our dogs and puppies with Panacur/Drontal


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Sue DiCero said:


> We do the same. On puppies/dogs we sell, we require a vet visit with fecal done within 48 hours. But, we treat all our dogs and puppies with Panacur/Drontal


Sue - I'm assuming you meant treating all dogs and puppies that are _symptomatic_ for Giardia?


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Konnie Hein said:


> Harry - I disagree with you.
> 
> My vet is a very responsible professional. I've been through a slew of vets, and he's definitely my favorite. I also spoke (via email) with a friend of mine who is a vet. She said basically the same thing.
> 
> ...


Interesting...they made it sound zoonotic in our public health class last year, but I'd have to go dig out my notes. I was at a practice in Denver last summer where Giardia is quite common and we had a puppy who came in with it test positive and we could see them on a fecal exam. The doctor made sure to remind them to pick up after the puppy since it was an apartment dog where other dogs and humans would be. While they say they haven't been linked from dogs or cats directly yet, I would still not take chances, but that's just me. No beaver fever for me, thanks!


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Thanks for commenting, Maren. I think the issue of it being zoonotic is still up in the air. I read conflicting information on the internet, but the link I posted seemed to be the most science/research based.

Here are a couple of other quotes from that link related to the transmission of Giardia from dogs to humans:


> Giardia exists in different "assemblages," which vary in their infectivity for animals and humans. Dogs have mainly Assemblages C and D. Cats have Assemblages A1 and F. Humans are infected with Assemblages A2 and B.





> Dog strains are not known to infect cats, and cat strains are not known to infect dogs.
> Human infections are primarily acquired from other humans; transmission from dogs and cats to humans appears to be rare, if it occurs at all.


If the visiting puppy had a lot of contact with my dogs, or used the same toilet area as my dogs, I'd definitely be a little more concerned. And, I'm feeling OK (I did let that little pupper lick my face!)


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Konnie everything that was posted is true stories and yes humans get it like I mentioned earlier in this thread. If you have young children you need to be extremely careful with them with this issue being true or false. Children love putting their hands in their mouth.


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Harry, honestly, I'm not one of those types of parents that freaks out over every germ and bug. If I was, I would not live on a farm with horses and a bunch of dogs. I also wouldn't let my daughter play in the brook or the woods. She'd never be allowed in the barn across the road, nor would we turn over rocks and logs looking for creepy crawly things. She'd never be allowed to hold her pet toad, or worms, or snakes. She'd never be allowed to interact with any of my raw fed dogs, and she wouldn't be able to ride her pony. She'd live in a sanitized environment, in fear of all the germs she could be exposed to, and I'd be slathering her with hand sanitizer all day long. What a boring life that would be.

Instead, we do all of the above things, and wash our hands with good ol' soap and water regularly. 

I do appreciate your input and respect your opinion on it though. Thanks.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Konnie Hein said:


> Harry, honestly, I'm not one of those types of parents that freaks out over every germ and bug. If I was, I would not live on a farm with horses and a bunch of dogs. I also wouldn't let my daughter play in the brook or the woods. She'd never be allowed in the barn across the road, nor would we turn over rocks and logs looking for creepy crawly things. She'd never be allowed to hold her pet toad, or worms, or snakes. She'd never be allowed to interact with any of my raw fed dogs, and she wouldn't be able to ride her pony. She'd live in a sanitized environment, in fear of all the germs she could be exposed to, and I'd be slathering her with hand sanitizer all day long. What a boring life that would be.
> 
> Instead, we do all of the above things, and wash our hands with good ol' soap and water regularly.
> 
> I do appreciate your input and respect your opinion on it though. Thanks.


Not trying to bash or tell you how to raise children, my son is a disaster himself always dirty and what not, was just trying to help a fellow handler and give a heads up to the dangers of Giardia.


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Thanks, Harry.


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