# Question about Jak



## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

I'm looking for serious answers here. I almost didn't post this, but I'm taking the chance anyway. I'm pretty sure I'm going to get some certain replies, but WTH.

Jak is 2 years old, and, according to my TD, not doing as well as he was expected to be doing by now. In his words, "Jak is inconsistent." He showed excellent potential as a puppy, started on the sleeve at 10 months old, and then, a few weeks later, began a (pretty long) phase where he was basically a turd, and now he seems to be doing well again. In other words, he's been slow to mature, I guess. My TD is not one to fart around with a dog that may or may not 'cut it,' as he puts it, and honestly, had expected Jak to be a much better dog than he's turning out to be (as far as sport goes). He did say that Jak could probably go SchH III, but he doesn't want to put in the time training for it because of Jak's inconsistencies. He has recommended that I consider selling Jak, either to a pet home, or to a home that's not really interested in competing at higher levels, or just interested in 'dabbling' in bitework just for fun. 

I've done very little obedience work or tracking with him, because of his 'turd-spell,' but he seems to be a natural at tracking, from what we've done so far, and I don't think polishing up his obedience will be difficult. This is where we're at in bitework:




He will also do long bites, but we've never worked him in the blind, and we've never told him to aus. He will aus his toys at home.

He is not a natural retriever, and would rather possess and play keep away than bring anything back to you and give it up. He is not aggressively possessive, though - I can take anything I want away from him, including food, without so much as a growl out of him - as long as I can catch him first! :lol:

I wouldn't feel comfortable putting him in a home with cats, because he just has too much interest in them and I'm afraid he might hurt them. When introduced properly, I think he would do okay with other dogs, but I can't say 100% that he would be.

Just to get an idea, what do you all think Jak is worth, based on what you've seen and what I've told you? IOW, what would *you* be willing to pay for him? I've had people tell me that they would buy him from me in a heartbeat, even when he wasn't doing so hot, but I wanted to hear what _you all_ had to say, because I know you'll be brutally honest and upfront. If you're not comfortable replying here, feel free to PM me.


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## Amber Scott Dyer (Oct 30, 2006)

to be honest..

well, first of all, do you care if he's a podium dog? It seems to me that you're learning a helluva lot more by owning him than you would by owning a stellar dog that did everything easily. I think by owning and titling Jak, you'll be a lot better trainer and handler in the end - and this will only be helpful to the dogs that follow. Will he be a good choice for a breeding program? Probably not. Is there anything wrong with you still working him and titling him? Definitely not. 

Also, I don't know who your TD is, but he seems very quick to give up and write the dog off. Maybe think about finding another trainer? Most trainers don't mind working a dog that isn't top of the line as long as the handler is dedicated and willing to make a concerted effort, and it seems that you are. You never know what different training methods may bring out in your dog. 

As far as $$ goes, I don't know.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Explain "inconsistancies".

As far as what the dog is worth, considering you are thinking about placing him due to his inability to work, I would just look for a good home, and not rip anyone off.

As far as his inability to work, and "inconsistancys" I have seen this, but the dog never really looked all that good to begin with. I have also seen plenty of dogs that were pushed too hard, and after they went to different owners and trainers, went on and were really nice dogs. However these dogs showed themselves to be very nice occasionally.

As far as a TD telling you at this point that the dog isn't going to cut it, you have been paying club dues for quite a while, so he can just go piss up a rope. He should have been able to tell you this years ago.


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

what i see from that second video is inconsistent helper work. i understand that for SchH he's working on the B/H, but when the dog does it properly, he steps back and runs away and the dog breaks his B/H. he does this one more time before finally giving the dog a bite. when he does finally give the bite, the dog's B/H isn't as intense as the first two (surprise, surprise). so if that guy is the one giving you the opinion on your dog, i might be tempted to seek another opinion.

as for the dog, i agree with amber that it would probably be in your best interests as a handler to keep the dog, maybe get him a SchH 1 and then if you want to progress further in the sport, look for another dog at that time. from those two videos i don't see anything that would suggest he is currently a "turd". 

but one thing i've found with dogs. they are like a significant other in that once you start thinking about giving them up, i mean seriously contemplating it (like just "looking around" for another dog), then it's as good as over. your heart won't be into it with the dog. so be sure it is what you want before you "seriously" start to think about giving up on him...


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

I think it's really going to be up to you. There's absolutely nothing wrong with having and working a club level dog if that's what you don't mind. If you want to be a national competitor or whatever and that's what is really important to you, than you may want to pass on him. If you are doing it for a fun activity for you both, I would chalk it up as a learning experience and go with it. In my very humble opinion, as long as they have the right drives and temperament, most things beyond that in sport are just going to be tweaking what you've got. I don't have time to be out there training 3-4 hours a day, 7 days a week, so I am not going to cry about it if Fawkes will be more suited to something not quite as intense, like agility or rally and whatnot. Having a physically, mentally, and environmentally sound dog is way more important than titles and trophies. Sure, it sucks when you see other people with really really nice dogs and you think "man, how cool would it be to have a dog at that level?" but at the same time, that takes way too much time for me! :smile: 

And as far as inconsistencies, if your trainer says he's inconsistent but he could be Sch 3, that sounds somewhat inconsistent to me. Not to mention that a two year old GSD can be the very definition of inconsistency sometimes!


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

I'm not interested in ripping anyone off at all. One thing I'm just a bit concerned about (and the reason I asked what you all thought he was worth) is the TD selling him for, I don't know, $5,000 or something, and me having to start all over again with another puppy to housebreak, and start obedience with, etc., and having to wait another 2 years to really start doing anything 'productive' with it (because my TD doesn't do bitework with puppies). I paid for Jak. If the TD now sells him to someone else and gives me another puppy as a replacement, the TD is most likely going to sell Jak for more than what I paid for him, and basically make a profit off of all the work that I've done with him already (bitework aside, because club is the only place we do bitework). That just doesn't seem right to me. 



I will say that my TD is not very interested in working club level dogs; his interest is in the dogs that can excel in the higher levels of the sport. He said that he could probably take Jak to SchH III, but that Jak would not be a top placing dog. The TD is not the helper. 



As far as 'inconsistencies,' I know you remember how I was really frustrated with him because he would not carry the sleeve, and would instead take it straight to the ground and maul it, digging in with his back feet so that it was nearly impossible to even get him moving in the first place, to prevent the mauling behavior - and difficult to choke him off, too (http://media.putfile.com/Sept10-06-003). He's 15 months old in this video.
He did this for a year and a half, and he did it from the very beginning. He will carry now, but he does not want to go all the way back to the helper, and often will get within 2 arms lengths before stopping and either thinking of trying to play keep-away with it, or starting the mauling behavior again if the helper can't get ahold of the sleeve fast enough. If I can't get him to sit and hold my hand underneath his chin once we get back to the car or whatever, then he'll start the mauling then, too. Sometimes I will run around with him for a few minutes after the last bite and slip, before going back to the car, or stopping somewhere else on the field to let him hold it. Sometimes I'll take him to the car, let him sit and hold it for a few seconds, and then let him run around with it some more, so he doesn't associate going to the car with losing the sleeve. 

The other thing was his grip. When we first started doing bitework with him, he had a nice full bite. Then he started getting chewy while on the bite. It wasn't like a 'chattering' or anything; it was like a snake does when it's swallowing large prey - chomp..............chomp...............chomp - but instead of countering, he was losing grip. He wouldn't come off the sleeve, or back off all the way or anything, but there would be about an inch of daylight at the back of his mouth. Now, his grips are NICE, according to the helper. He counters properly now, too. 

In this video (http://media.putfile.com/July-2206-Jak-sleeve-thrashing), Jay was trying to get him to counter, but he just wouldn't, and would thrash/shake instead. This was a combo of the last two 'issues,' and lasted for SEVERAL months. 

Another thing is the whip. As a puppy, the sound of the whip never bothered him in the least, then, he started shying from it for no apparent reason. Then, a couple of months ago, he was unaffected by it again (http://s96.photobucket.com/albums/l...action=view&current=Nov1906JakBitework001.flv this was the first long bite we ever did, and I ran up to him too quickly, making him come off because he wasn't sure why I was running at him - my bad - that was the only time he ever came off), and now he's afraid of it again. He will actually jump back, and hesitate to go forward towards the helper again, when the whip is cracked. If it's cracked 20 or more feet away, he doesn't seem to care. I know the whip isn't used in a SchH trial, but I don't like that he's afraid of it for no reason. He's never been struck, either with the padded stick or with the whip. I'm worried that this fear may transfer over to the stick, though, and that he'll come off the grip when he is struck. When he was a little younger, and Matt H. worked him in Spartanburg, Matt hit the leash, but I couldn't tell if it affected Jak's grip - he didn't come off, but I wasn't close enough to see how he reacted to it, and the video is small and dark, so it's hard to tell. (http://media.putfile.com/July-2206-Jak-2nd-suit-bite) Now I know the flanking was probably not the best thing to do, but it's what I was told to do at the time. Jak was 13.5 months old here and in the last video.


My TD recognizes and said that Jak is doing very well right now, but he's concerned that he'll regress again, I think, and just doesn't have the patience to deal with a wishy washy dog. 

I think I'm going to talk to him about how Jak would be replaced. I don't really want to start over with another puppy, and if that's what he's thinking of doing, I may discuss going for a SchH I with Jak instead/first. I don't know how that will go over, but we'll see.

There is no one else to train with, as far as SchH goes. The only other thing is the club in Spartanburg, and I don't know if they're training for APPDA or not, or whether Jak could even do that. I do know they are a great group of people that I'd love to train with, but I can't do both.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Ok, just about everyone would like to be in the position to only work "high level sport dogs", but thats just not the way the world works. Sounds more like the TD's wet dream to me. If you have any other clubs in your area, you might want to check them out for someone a little more "realistic". Most TD's are "giddy" if they can say all the members/handlers in their clubs have dogs that will some day be schHIII, and maybe compete at the local level. Maybe some members have the skills & calibre of dog to get to the top, but that sure as hell is not where his breads buttered. Sounds a little meglomaniacal.


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

Actually, Susan, my TD is widely known in the SchH world, so it's not a 'wet dream' to him to work only the best. That's just what he's used to.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Kristen there are many well known trainers in schutzhund, but unfortunately, there just isn't enough talent in any one region to completely fill out a club with only people destined for the upper echelons of the sport.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

The business with the whip and some other stuff you have mentioned in the past makes me think Jak could have some nerve issues, I'm wondering if this is something the TD thinks would be too difficult or not something the dog would be able to work through. You mentioned he would sell Jak for a profit. Does that mean he is going to trade you for another dog? If so, and you trust him to find a good home for Jak, that might be a good option for you.


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

well, seems to me that the first question is: what are your goals? with jak or any other dog? and i mean your personal goals, ie, to train a dog to sch1,2,3; to train a dog only to a 3 (a 1 or 2 being not acceptable); to simply learn/become a better handler thru experience?

if you wash jak out, what are you doing with jessie? what are the criteria for a wash-out for you? just thoughts from my little old boilermakers brain, and FWIW.

sounds to me like you're trying to lay off the guilt you're feeling for getting rid of jak cause he doesn't fit what you want to do on to *everyone else*. if he doesn't fit you, find another home where he will fit, keep him yourself as a pet, or euthanize him. 

if that seems harsh kristen, well, that's how i see it at this time. do the boy the best you can (and i know you will).


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## Amber Scott Dyer (Oct 30, 2006)

Kristen Cabe said:


> I'm not interested in ripping anyone off at all. One thing I'm just a bit concerned about (and the reason I asked what you all thought he was worth) is the TD selling him for, I don't know, $5,000 or something, and me having to start all over again with another puppy to housebreak, and start obedience with, etc., and having to wait another 2 years to really start doing anything 'productive' with it (because my TD doesn't do bitework with puppies). I paid for Jak. If the TD now sells him to someone else and gives me another puppy as a replacement, the TD is most likely going to sell Jak for more than what I paid for him, and basically make a profit off of all the work that I've done with him already (bitework aside, because club is the only place we do bitework). That just doesn't seem right to me.


See, honestly, this bothers me... if they think the dog is good enough to be sold for $5000 (which in my opinion is just INSANE for a dog at this stage, I've seen FR III mals for sale for that price), then why is he not good enough to 'waste his time' training? I'm not being rude, I'm really not, but are you having a good time? This should be fun for you and for the dog, and I'm sure your TD knows what he's doing and that he's big in the competition world, but I've met quite a few bigwigs that were utter ***holes. Like Jeff said, you paid your club dues, and he can either train your dog or give you a refund. 

As far as the Spartanburg group goes, there are several people there that are training for SchH. Have you talked to Becky Chatos? She has a nice GSD that she's training for SchH. I think Eric Collins is working with her on it, but I'm not entirely sure. 

I think Jak can title, and I think you are attached to the dog and don't want to find him a home. If you do decide to place him, then YOU need to place him, not give him to your TD to make a profit. If you want to sell him, that's fine - but at least YOU can be honest about the dog's talents and shortcomings. I guarantee that your TD isn't going to sell Jak for $5000 with the advertisement "This dog is OK, but not good enough for me to waste my time on." Is he where you got Jak from in the first place? If so, do you trust his judgment enough to get a replacement puppy from him? Or would you feel more comfortable placing Jak and finding another puppy on your own? 

Sorry, I'm sure your TD is a nice guy and all, but this all seems a little fishy to me.


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## Amber Scott Dyer (Oct 30, 2006)

another thing - I know there are some people who don't choose to do bitework till 1 year old with their dogs, and that's fine - but if he's not going to do bitework young, how in the hell is he going to evaluate another puppy for you to decide if that one will be a washout too?


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

OK, just take the quote that Amber outlines and that is where I am going to stay at with this.

I have seen a lot of work done by helpers that are well respected in the Sch community and honestly it is shit work. As long as they are working with the type of dog they like, the dog turns out really well. Well, this is **** all training. I have seen some pretty stupid training, and I mean stuff that people that do not know much about training will sit there and ask me what the **** is that?? On a good dog, I have seen it work. Who knows what the dog with good work could have been, but they are in the top 5 at trials.

So, having seen a very few videos, I am not impressed with what I have seen at all. Sorry, looks like either the videos you have posted were all bad days, or you are working with a goofball. That is just my opinion, and there is a slight chance that I am incorrect. (right, sure.)

OK, to say it again, 5000 bucks?? and you get a puppy??? **** that. That alone would make me train somewhere else. I mean does he require you provide him with a hooker to go along with that??

Not doing bitework with puppies??? That was done years ago, and I see how it could have some benefits with an easily crushed dog...........OK, no I don't get that. 

The whip thing is a bit weird, do you have any video of the dog wigging on the whip?? This sounds like another issue that came from somewhere else and has transfered to the training field.

Whatever, if the dog isn't good enough to train, then find another club, where they can actually train dogs, or give him a home yourself and get a dog on your own. It all sounds too scammy for me.


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## Amber Scott Dyer (Oct 30, 2006)

is this your club?

http://www.ashevilleschutzhundclub.com/index.html

I have heard some nice things about dogs from this club, true. However - 

"No guest or member may participate in bite or protection training unless he or she has achieved a SchH B with the dog to be included in such training. This rule may be waived at the discretion of the D.O.T. "

WTF??


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Sounds like an assurance factor they put in so when they cannot train an "off" dog they are covered. Plus they will sell it for you for 5000.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

No bites until the dog has a BH? I can understand not doing much bite work with a well bred pup, puppy circles are more for the owners anyway but to wait until the dog has a BH is.....well that I'm not clear on why. If they are doing it to avoid jerks who only want to do bite work, then they should just have people who go verify the newbies are doing obedience and tracking. Can someone shed some light on that for me?


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## Scott Dunmore (May 5, 2006)

I think Tim makes a good point about the timing of the reward in the second video. 
Do you have any videos showing where Jak is in the obedience work, or showing how he plays for a tug?


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

I do not train at the Asheville Schutzhund Club, partly because they never would return any of my phone calls or e-mails when I was looking for a dog and somewhere to train, and partly because I didn't like many of their by-laws. 


Saying Jak would be sold for $5,000 was just me coming up with a price. I honestly don't know what my TD would sell him for. I _have_ seen so-called green dogs being sold for this online, though, so _someone_ probably _would_ pay that for him. Yes, Amber, I bought Jak from my TD, and I know you (and everyone else) aren't trying to be rude. I'm not taking any of these replies that way at all. I WANTED everyone's honest opinions and I thank all of you that are replying. 

Amber, no, I haven't talked to them in Spartanburg about training for SchH. When I was going down there, most of the stuff they were doing was on the suit. Is Becky the one with the German showline male? Did she come to the ASR trial in Augusta? I have a hard time keeping names straight sometimes. 


I asked if Jessie was intended to be Jak's replacement, and was told no, I would get another male. Then my TD started talking about puppies and starting over, and that kind of got me thinking that I wasn't too sure about that. The puppy thing does annoy me, like some of you have said. The more I think about it, the more I think I want to just keep working with Jak and see how things turn out. I really don't want to deal with another puppy right now, and I really don't want to start all over and have to wait at least another year and a half to really begin training. To be honest, I thought that by age 2, we would at least have been working on the B&H in the blind. 

The reason my TD states for not working puppies in bitework is "because they learn [and continue] to bite like puppies [into adulthood]." He doesn't even _like_ for a lot of obedience to be done with puppies, because he wants them to "grow up thinking they're the shit." Puppy tracking isn't done, either. All of that was pretty hard for me when I first joined and got Jak, because I wanted to get started training then, not a year later. 


Susan, what other things that I've mentioned makes you think Jak is a bit nervy? Just out of curiosity, because he seems very stable to me. 

I don't have any video of him acting weird with the whip, unfortunately. I wish I did. He did it the last time we trained, and I didn't bring the camera with me that time. What he does is continue to bark (his bark never changes, if you've noticed), but he'll jump back either against my legs or beside me, and then gradually go forward to the end of the line again. He doesn't put his hackles up, or his tail down. It's more of a startled response, I think, because he doesn't react like that if it's done at a distance; but he did it every time the whip was cracked up close, that day. The helper probably did it 4 times that day. 


Ann, my goal _was_ to train a dog to SchH III, but at this rate, that's not going to happen until I'm 50. :lol:


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Kristen I know who you train with. He is a good trainer no doubt, but in my opinion not well respected.

Keep your dog and enjoy him, learn from him. You do pay your dues to train and unless they ran me off they would help me with my dog or I would go someplace else. There's other good trainers up there. May have to drive but they are there.

Your dog is a late bloomer, a lot of dogs are. Most dogs are only good club dogs. Not many go much futher. Don't junk your dog. Junk that decoy.


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

You know, the more I think about it, and from what's been said here, the more I want to hang onto him, at least for a little while longer, and see how it goes. I do not want to get another puppy right now. It might be different if Jak was going to be replaced by another 2-year old, but a puppy? I don't like that idea at all. 

Jerry, do you know if the Spartanburg group is training for APPDA now or not? If my TD doesn't want to continue training Jak, then I may just start going down there again. If you weren't so danged far away, I'd train with y'all, but I don't see myself driving to Augusta, GA every weekend! :lol:


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## Amber Scott Dyer (Oct 30, 2006)

I'm not entirely sure how to get in touch with Becky. She's the tall, thin one with the big showline male. He's really nice, though. He's training in suit sports - he got his ASR EL in our trial - but she also has another male in SchH. I'll see if I can get her number for you.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Some things like how difficult it was for him to carry the sleeve (dead prey), how very chewy he was and now the new stuff. I don't do hardly any ob or prot with puppies either but I do track them from the time they are 12 weeks. 

I too have seen young schutzhund prospects offered for $5,000 and up but it's another matter as to whether they can get that for them! I imagine a dog that has been OFAed good hips & passing elbows, has an excelent pedigree for future breeding, and has been started (including retrieve) by someone as well known as Wayne could find a buyer with at least that much to spend.


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## Daniel Cox (Apr 17, 2006)

Kristen,
These are my stories and I hope this comforts you. I am not saying you should get another dog with these stories but I am telling you that if you want a top sport dog then you must be willing to make sacrifices. 

I had to get ride of my first dog that I raised from a puppy. He was a showline and did not make the grade. I hand picked him and raised him for 14 months. I did love the dog. I gave him to my cousin in Florida who had a young son. I routinely check on them and they love Simba. Simba's goal in life was to be a family companion. He did not have the nerves or get the genetics to do any REAL protection work and it took me many months to figure this out. I did not know this and very few showlines dogs could do any protection in my opinion. It is really sad but I am not going to bash showline because I do love all dogs and it is not their fault. I was very disappointed that he did not make it. It was one of the hardest things I ever did. I kept him until I found another dog. I knew I did not want a puppy. I wanted something that could work right away. I went on the hunt for a dog that was 6 months - 3 years. I found a son of Falk von den Wölfen and he was 10 months old. I got him through a friend and he cost me a reasonable amount. It was not a huge amount but I did get what I was looking for and more. Chuck vom Dorneburger Bach is his name and he works and works and works. He is civil and extreme in all drives. He was born to work. He is currently 20 months and ready for his SCH1. I have done more with this dog in 10 months than I could have in 10 years with my showline.

I also just raised a female from a puppy and she is almost 1 year. Zesta vom huelsman does nice bitework and has a true full genetic grip. She has drive but she is not top competition. She comes from working lines and her father was a really nice dog, Unkas zum Jürgenshof, BSP dog. She is perfect for my wife. I have done all the imprinting and she will do the work. She has plenty of drive for the sport and does nice work. She might even end up working out of defense and not prey. I like real protection dogs but that is me. She has very nice nerves too. This is most important. My wife loves here and she might be a nice breed bitch for my male Chuck vom Dorneburger Bach. I did get lucky raising her from a puppy.

A lady in our club has two GSDs she brought to our club. One female never worked out and we knew she was going to be an issue from a puppy. The other was a male who could work but it was a lot of work. We do have the him doing a Bark and Hold, escape, courage test and even take a stick hit. It took one year to get this far and we continue to work the dog but the female now stays at home. She did not receive the genetic gift to work. It took this lady some time and she realized that it was a lot of work and she imported a nice 3 year old male. She has done more with this male in 1 month than she did with two dogs in 2 years. She has realized that a nice dog makes a world of difference and she really enjoys the sport with a very nice dog.

Our top helper just raised a little female from a puppy who is 13 or 14 months old. She has tons of drive but she has a grip issue. We do try and work the grip but it is genetic. She will do the work but she will never be a top competition dog because of the grip. I think she has top competition drives but the grip will always be an issue. The grip is genetic but her parents had a nice full grip but she does not.

Here are some of my opinions
1. A top sport dog must have good nerves. You must start with nerves and 
then add the other things you want. Without good nerves a GSD has nothing.
2. Raising puppies is a crap shot no matter what the mother and father pedigree but a top mother and father help your odds greatly
3.. The grip is genetic but it can be be ruined by bad training
4. Top competition dogs are very hard to find
5. It takes a special dog to do REAL Schutzhund work and just because mom and dad does did not guarantee you anything
6. I feel by 8 months you can tell if a dog is going to have the potential to do top sport, club sport or be a pet
7. Females tend to develop much slower unless they are something real special
8. A top female dog is very hard to find
9. Many people in dog sport do not know what real protection work is
(this is my opinion). Most dogs CAN NOT handle the pressure to do real protection and many people are living in a dreamland that there dogs can
10. A top sport dog can work in defense or prey but either must want to fight the Helper
11. No such thing as a hip guarantee but if the pedigree shows good hips for many generations then your odds just go better.
12. There are no guarantees with any dog

Here is my advice. Look at your training w/ Jak and decide if you want to keep him or send him to a new place. This is your choice. If you do get another dog then I suggest you get a 1 -3 year old male and do not try and raise a puppy because it is too risky. Try raising a puppy after you have found yourself a top working male. I do not care if it is a west gsd, east gsd, czech gsd, showline, or belgian gsd. It makes no difference. Just make sure you get one that can work and and has all the drives to work. You are going to spend hundreds of hours training this dog so I feel you must get a top dog. Remember that if you get a top sport dog that you might get more than you ask for. Dogs with high drive are a joy to work but they require great responsibility. Be very picky and find someone you can trust. Make sure the dog has good nerves and has no handler issues. I would even look at a sch1 male. There are many good dogs to be found but it might require up to 1 year to find what you want. I think you can find a nice import 2500 - 5000 dollars shipped. Age, hips and pedigree will play a roll in price.

Good luck and keep us posted on what you decide.

I am not trying to start a debate or hurt anyones feelings with my opinions above but these are my opinions. I am not trying to arrogant but just posting my feelings and what has worked for me. I am not the best trainer in the world but being realistic will sure give you a leg up on the a lot of the competition.


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

Amber, yes, that's who I thought Becky was. If you can get her number, great, or feel free to give her mine, or my e-mail address, either one. I'll PM you. 


I've just sent an e-mail to my TD saying basically that I don't want a puppy as a replacement if I re-home Jak, so we'll see what he says.


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## Lyn Chen (Jun 19, 2006)

"7. Females tend to develop much slower unless they are something real special"

I've heard the opposite, that in a uniform litter the males will develop slower than females.


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## Daniel Cox (Apr 17, 2006)

Lyn Chen said:


> "7. Females tend to develop much slower unless they are something real special"
> 
> I've heard the opposite, that in a uniform litter the males will develop slower than females.


I feel that most of the time if you take 2 working males and 2 working females from the same litter and raised them to 1 year and gave them all the same development. I feel the males will generally develop faster. The males will show stronger drives and aggression at a younger age. The females I feel will need to go through a heat cycle. I might be wrong but this is my observation.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

I think Daniel raises some important issues. It's pretty awe inspiring to see how quickly you can move forward with the right dog, it's also very rewarding and a lot of fun for the owner/handler.


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

I appreciate everyone's input, first and foremost. I talked to my TD, and told him that I did not want (nor did I have the time right now) to take on another puppy, and if I 'traded Jak in,' I would like to get a dog that is at least close to his age, so that I can continue actively training. He said Jak was "more than good enough to continue actively training," so I guess that's what I'll do.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

I think he's more than enough to continue with too. I just don't like it when I feel someone is being taken advantage of. I don't like it when someone talks out of both sides of their mouth like he has done. Jak will do you proud, stay with him. If he don't, don't blame the dog. He has what it takes.


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

Jerry, I know what you're saying. My concern now, since Jak is (likely) not going to be 'the best,' or a top competitor, if we'll get the same level of training that a 'better' dog would. There is a clear difference between the way he works his own dogs, and the way he works other people's dogs that are club level dogs. I also remember what your sister said....


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

Kristen Cabe said:


> Jerry, I know what you're saying. My concern now, since Jak is (likely) not going to be 'the best,' or a top competitor, if we'll get the same level of training that a 'better' dog would. There is a clear difference between the way he works his own dogs, and the way he works other people's dogs that are club level dogs. I also remember what your sister said....


there can be no clearer sign that you need a new club...


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

Tim Martens said:


> there can be no clearer sign that you need a new club...


There is no other club.


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

Someone said I should try to get in contact with the Asheville Schutzhund Club again, but I'm half afraid to, since I've already started bitework and Jak's obedience is certainly not BH-level obedience.  :?


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

You need to get with us, not that we're the best thing since sliced bread but we would work him and get him to do the best he could do. Even if you could go to Greer and I'm sure they would do the same.


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