# Age for hip x-ray



## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Not wanting to hijack the heartbreak thread so.

What age would you *do* the x-rays on a working puppy with no symptoms?

We were going to do them at 4.5 months when he had to be temporarily knocked out for the tooth fix but the vet said they called OFA (for prelim and that that age is within the range) but they said there would be too much laxity to get a good estimate.

All I care about is a working adult with functional hips. We are not doing competition sports but there is still a good bit of ability required for the cadaver work (crawling under things, jumping on counters, brush piles etc) and an arthritic dog does have honest trouble. 

The vet suggested waiting for a year but if we wind up with a fixable problem are there some guidelines for when to do it by?


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

I typically x ray all of my dogs twice within their lifetime. I often will wait until about 2 to x ray them and will do it again later on whenever the dog needs to be put under again (usually around 5-7 years of age). 

In your case, I would have probably shot the films on your pup while he was under. Assuming your pup had normal hip conformation the reliability of that reading I believe would have been about 89.6% according to the following link.

Nevertheless, if I have the chance to x ray early I will do so. The earliest I x rayed a dog was at 7 months and that was because the pup had been showing some signs of weight shift abnormality that I wasn't comfortable with. Come to find out my suspicions were right, x rays confirmed severe HD. I x rayed them again at 2 and found them to be marginally better but still in questionable shape in terms of coverage/laxity.

http://www.offa.org/hd_prelims.html


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

The vet really did not want to manipulate the hips that much at that age.........I know they do penn hip even younger...so I let her talk me out of it.

Like I said - no signs of any trouble but my female with severe bilateral dysplasia showed no signs until one winter day after boat work and swimming and she got chilled then limped for a few days so I took her in and even the vet thought a blown cruciate before the x-rays.. [she was three]


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

very good question ... 
I support OFA and PennHip, but why would you get OFA certs unless you were considering breeding the dog ???
- so "you know what the joints look like inside" ?
- bragging rights if Xlnt ? 
- so you could worry if they weren't in great shape ?

- try and modify the lifestyle of the dog to fit the degree of laxity ?
- start getting them on meds or supplements to fit the degree of laxity ?

from what has been posted on the "other" thread it appears you should just carry on as normal, and the last two seem to be the only ones to have any merit, and might be good for any dog, whether they got OFA certs or not 

get a dog from good stock to begin with, feed em and exercise em properly, have fun and save vet money for other stuff that will be required later
....why would OFA be a criteria, and especially 2x (with a prelim for a puppy) ?
- most all dogs require anesthetics for this kinda shot, right ?

if this is in regards to breeding....plse mostly disregard all of the above


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

I am investing a lot of time in a working prospect puppy for cadaver work. If he winds up with non functional hips or elbows I can't use him.

I washed out another at the age of 3 -- after she was ready to certify as a live find dog. She has an active pet life and is just fine at 9 even with severe HD. But I did not want someone's life hanging on the work of a dog that was not 100% functional.

So I don't want to invest several years in the puppy if he has a signficant problem. He has such a nice temperamant we would probably try to find a non-working home or one where he could do something a little less stressful on the joints. 

Like I said, no signs of any problem .... and hopefull there will be none.

*The question about young dogs is finding something before the clock runs out for doing a repair that could restore working funciton.*


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

rick smith said:


> ....why would OFA be a criteria, and especially 2x (with a prelim for a puppy) ?
> - most all dogs require anesthetics for this kinda shot, right ?


Rick, I assume these questions are for me since I indicated that I generally x ray my dogs more than once? A number of the dogs I have received over the years have been gifted to me by breeders for various reasons. My background up until recently has been in DDB, which have a very high rate of HD (something like 80%), and what I have done with these dogs, those that I own any way has been relatively unheard of or otherwise tested so to get a better look at things when the opportunity comes up I will x ray them again at a later point to see where we are at. Usually this has been for a teeth cleaning or other medical procedures for which they needed to be put under for anyway. 

I generally own bitches, which I have had spayed at around 2-2.5 years of age, at that time (these dogs were DDB) I also had an elective gastropexy performed and then shot the hips, knees, elbows, and shoulders.

An no, it's not a given that a dog will need to be put under for the x ray although most need to be, but sometimes depending upon the dog, you may not need to put them under to shoot the film. I x ray the dog and use the vet assessment along with the dogs performance/gait/tracking etc, as a basis for determining what I will do from there. My interest is in hip conformation/condition and performance therefore an OFA rating is otherwise useless to me since I don't ever intend breed any of these dogs.

NANCY: just saw your reply. I wasn't sure who Rick was addressing. I think your thoughts and consideration are valid given the reasons you have given.


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

After having a young dog diagnosed with HD, a top competitor I know had her new prospect penn hipped at 4 months. The hips looked suspect so she had the JPS done as I mentioned in the other thread. She is hoping that it will give her dogs hips the best chance outcome as she matures. The surgery is very simple and is reletively inexpensive.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

I xray everything I buy, even those I have donated or obtain from pounds, rescues etc. I like dog 18 months or older. Since I'm only concerned about their working ability, I don't bother with OFA (type) xrays. The veterinarian I use for X rays has never steered me wrong. In fact, over the years, I've even become fairly competent reading xrays of hips/joints. Xray is the last step in my selection process so it's always a "hold your breath" moment. There has been more than one occasion where I was really happy with the the selection of a dog, but had to turn it down because of hips. 

DFrost


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

guess i should revise my post a bit 
my response was based on this statement (and not directed to any person in particular) : "What age would you *do* the x-rays on a working puppy with no symptoms?"

i realize people who will be putting a lot of time and money into a dog to be used for professional K9 use need to be much more cautious with their investment. so nothing wrong with setting your standards high when you start out

Since the heartbreak post has gotten over a thousand hits, i figured a lot of dog owners who didn't fit the above category were reading. it didn't appear that Sarah's dog fit this situation, and i thought it might lead others to consider that OFA/PH certs should be on a "to do" list for raising a "working dog". i don't think they are and respect those who might think otherwise.
- for a person who is getting a pup from a known reputable breeder and WON'T be using that dog for breeding or for full time professional employment, OFA // P/H expenses would be way down on my list and i'd put my money into the best training and food i could get.
- and not even sure if i would do it for a rescue case

and fwiw, i know there can be good arguments made by highly qualified vets for early surgery and restoration work, but i also think there is an element of "if it aint broke don't fix it" that should also be considered VERY carefully b4 making that decision 
- i suspect this might be an issue that comes up for the serious sport people

but as always ....jmo


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

When I owned breeds with high HD rates I started xraying at 6-7 months..

depending on those looked it would be done again at 12 months or 2 years...

I do OFA style...I "think" the Pennhip is possibly better from what I have heard and read, but it is uber expensive here...


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

rick smith said:


> and fwiw, i know there can be good arguments made by highly qualified vets for early surgery and restoration work, but i also think there is an element of "if it aint broke don't fix it" that should also be considered VERY carefully b4 making that decision
> - i suspect this might be an issue that comes up for the serious sport people
> 
> but as always ....jmo


I think it depends, if something minor can be done reletively cheaply and early that could prevent major problems in the future, I would most certainly consider it, such as the situation with the very early hip procedure.

I know with my youngster of 5mo the CT scans came back clear after some early minor front leg limping. Then when there was a very slight hint of a possible elbow problem a few months later on a subsequent scan but nothing particularly conclusive I was given a choice by the orthovet. Either we go in a have a look or we wait and see. She was sound at the time but I believed I could could occassionaly notice an intermittant very slight irregularity in her gait.

I decided to go in and was glad I did. There were quite a few chips that the vet removed from both elbows and because we got to them early there was no cartilage damage. 3 years later and she is fine and her elbows are looking good. I even compete to a limited degree in agility with her.


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## Jenny Thorp (Nov 8, 2008)

Nancy Jocoy said:


> Not wanting to hijack the heartbreak thread so.





Nancy Jocoy said:


> What age would you *do* the x-rays on a working puppy with no symptoms?
> 
> We were going to do them at 4.5 months when he had to be temporarily knocked out for the tooth fix but the vet said they called OFA (for prelim and that that age is within the range) but they said there would be too much laxity to get a good estimate.
> 
> ...


I don't do the same work you do but I did PennHip films on my pup at 4 mths. 
He was my working prospect ( SchH ) with no signs of anything to be concerned about.
It is expensive in my area but I'd do it again as an early screening on my next working pup.

There are some surgeries to help dysplastic puppies. I understand they need to be done on young puppies for best results , under 16 weeks for JPS (Juvenile Pubic Symphysiodesis) . 
Older pups ( 6 to 10 mths ) can have a TP (triple pelvic osteotomy).


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## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

6 months (for peace of mind) and 1 year (SV A-stamp).


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Joby Becker said:


> When I owned breeds with high HD rates I started xraying at 6-7 months..
> 
> depending on those looked it would be done again at 12 months or 2 years...
> 
> I do OFA style...I "think" the Pennhip is possibly better from what I have heard and read, but it is uber expensive here...


 
If I'm suspicious, earlier than 1 year, if I'm not suspicious then 1 year prelims, and then 2 years old for permanent OFA rating hips & elbows.

The majority of WDF members have dogs for sport and/or work, not just pets, so of course we xray our dogs. It would be a waste of our time and money NOT to xray our dogs. Plus it's not that expensive in the grand scheme of things, my vet charges $200. hips/elbows out the door, no anethesia.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

rick smith said:


> very good question ...
> I support OFA and PennHip, but why would you get OFA certs unless you were considering breeding the dog ???
> - so "you know what the joints look like inside" ?
> - bragging rights if Xlnt ?
> ...


There's a lot of good reasons to send them into OFA, especially if you're going to have them done anyways. Some breeders require their puppy owners to get them done so they know what goes on in the lines. Some also refund money to the puppy buyer if they get it done, which is nice. If you ever bought a dog as an adult for whatever reason, I would never trust anyone who said "oh, my vet said they were fine." I want to be able to look on OFA's website and see. You're also helping contribute data to OFA (and scientists who use the submitted information) to study the incidence of the disease over time. Submitting films to OFA is only an extra $35 for hips or $40 for both hips and elbows. Not a bad price for 3 radiologists to look. 

I currently do not shoot radiographs (as a housecall practitioner), but I do occasional relief work at clinics that do. If I did OFA shots, I'd prefer using a light reversible sedative as I don't want a dog to struggle on their backs in the trough used for positioning and having to expose the dog to multiple shots of radiation because they weren't straight. Much easier on everybody with light sedation.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> There's a lot of good reasons to send them into OFA, especially if you're going to have them done anyways. Some breeders require their puppy owners to get them done so they know what goes on in the lines. Some also refund money to the puppy buyer if they get it done, which is nice. If you ever bought a dog as an adult for whatever reason, I would never trust anyone who said "oh, my vet said they were fine." I want to be able to look on OFA's website and see. You're also helping contribute data to OFA (and scientists who use the submitted information) to study the incidence of the disease over time. Submitting films to OFA is only an extra $35 for hips or $40 for both hips and elbows. Not a bad price for 3 radiologists to look.
> 
> I currently do not shoot radiographs (as a housecall practitioner), but I do occasional relief work at clinics that do. If I did OFA shots, I'd prefer using a light reversible sedative as I don't want a dog to struggle on their backs in the trough used for positioning and having to expose the dog to multiple shots of radiation because they weren't straight. Much easier on everybody with light sedation.


Agreed about sending to OFA, but Maren there are vets who along with their assistants, have become extremely adept at quickly restraining dogs in position and getting good quality xrays (the first time), with no sedation, even difficult to handle dogs. I go to one particular vet soley for OFA xrays because he and his staff is that good, he was recommended to me by a member of this forum.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Actually I may need to ask around finding a good one just for that in the Greenville SC area. .... 

I know there are no issues with light sedation and he has good bloodwork....

FWIW, my breeder says she does not do enough litters to do a replacement but does give a full refund if they fail to pass OFA at 2. But I must keep him lean and not neuter him until after then. (I have no plans to neuter anyway)....Honestly I don't even expect a refund. If the breeder is doing due diligence that is all I ever expect. It is a dog not a widgit..


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

susan tuck said:


> Agreed about sending to OFA, but Maren there are vets who along with their assistants, have become extremely adept at quickly restraining dogs in position and getting good quality xrays (the first time), with no sedation, even difficult to handle dogs. I go to one particular vet soley for OFA xrays because he and his staff is that good, he was recommended to me by a member of this forum.


In case anyone in So Cali is looking for a vet who specializes in OFA xrays sans anethesia: 
Dr Alex Stern 5 Star Vet Hosp
http://www.myvetonline.com/FiveStarVet/clinic-sitemap-general-information-services.html


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

susan tuck said:


> Agreed about sending to OFA, but Maren there are vets who along with their assistants, have become extremely adept at quickly restraining dogs in position and getting good quality xrays (the first time), with no sedation, even difficult to handle dogs. I go to one particular vet soley for OFA xrays because he and his staff is that good, he was recommended to me by a member of this forum.


With certain high powered dogs and putting them on their backs in an ungainly position, I'd personally prefer not to stress the dog out and have them hurt themselves struggling (or bite someone). Especially wearing lead gloves where you can't grip hardly anything, this is not simple to do, particularly with cats! For an extremely easy going dog, this isn't too difficult, but they are often the exception rather than the rule. I much prefer having the patient relaxed and not stressing, set up a good shot, one and done, and reverse rather than struggling with them and getting a so-so shot that you have to repeat and expose everyone to more radiation. If an animal is not cooperating, sedation is denied by the client, and I have to shoot multiple times, I will also be charging for that as well. If that practice can get good results, that's fine too, but again, just my personal preference. 

I like using low doses of dexmeditomidine/midazolam or nalbuphine instead of midazolam. Calming (and reversible for the dexmeditomidine) without being extremely sedate. I heard rumors OSHA may be requiring in the future that no one but the patient be in the room while shots are being taken, as is typically the case with human medicine, so it may not be an option in the future...


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

I",m not sure about the SV but the DV will certify hips at 12 months


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

That's fine Maren, I understand most vets should use sedation, BUT some vets have purposely honed their skills to be able to do xrays without any sedation, it's their specialty, even on *high powered or difficult *dogs, with excellent results, and without injury. 

Dr Whitecamp before he retired was one of these vets and Dr Stern is another.


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Usually between 12-18 mo, cause we have cross dogs no official stamp is possible :sad:


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

susan tuck said:


> That's fine Maren, I understand most vets should use sedation, BUT some vets have purposely honed their skills to be able to do xrays without any sedation, it's their specialty, even on *high powered or difficult *dogs, with excellent results, and without injury.
> 
> Dr Whitecamp before he retired was one of these vets and Dr Stern is another.


Another issue is missing false negatives because they are not properly relaxed with the sedation, so it masks the dysplasia (this has been noted in several studies, I can copy/paste the abstracts if you like). As PennHIP requires sedation and OFA recommends it, but does not require it, this is one possible reason why a dog may appear to be passing on OFA but not be on PennHIP on the extension view.

Of course, the breeders who think OFA is just another hoop to jump through for marketing instead of using as valuable tool for their breeding program *want* no sedation for this very reason to make it more likely for their dogs to pass... :-k :-\"

Just curious, Sue...why do you not want sedation?


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Just curious, Sue...why do you not want sedation?


You could say I'm almost superstitious, but it's because I happen to know (not know OF, I actually knew) two dogs that died from sedation/anesthesia given for non-invasive procedures, so it makes me hinky. I realize it's rare, and odd that I would happen to know twice when it happened, but because of that, I'm very (some might say overly) cautious.
:sad:


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

I understand your concern. It's not something to take lightly, but I personally use sedation drugs like dexmeditomidine, which is also a human drug, that are reversible should something go awry. Using the reversal drug, they are usually up and awake pretty quickly and smoothly. I like giving either midazolam (also a human drug chemically related to Valium) or nalbuphine (chemically related to morphine) for a smooth recovery so they're feeling pretty good.  Full general anesthesia is pretty atypical for needing hip and elbow films done (unless they were anesthetized for something else). 

If your dog ever needs to be sedated for something and you're not sure, feel free to ask me. I'm not an anesthesiologist, but I can at least give my opinion.  I try to be very progressive on these sorts of things.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Another issue is missing false negatives because they are not properly relaxed with the sedation, so it masks the dysplasia (this has been noted in several studies, I can copy/paste the abstracts if you like).


Maren, perhaps I am wrong but I thought that technically or rather more specifically it could potentially mask joint laxity, which understandably I see your point but it won't mask the actual conformation of the hip joint (a shallow acetabulum or short femoral neck, remodeling of the joint, etc.). Nevertheless, the point you made is certainly with merit.


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## Sarah ten Bensel (Mar 16, 2008)

I had both of my dogs done at 25 months. My older dogs had films done prior to that when he was under anesthesia for other issues. My female had her hips filmed at 12 months when she was spayed-just to rule out HD-she did not have HD, but her back was toast..... All have been done under anesthesia for all the reasons mentioned in other postings. _The films done at 25 months were sent to OFA as a part of the agreement with the breeder. _I have no interest in breeding. Its too bad that OFA isn't required as the OFA data is so skewed because people often do not send the films in if the findings are not favorable-just send in the passing hips. I contemplated PennHIP but it was wa y too expensive--$700 for all pre=labs, sedaton, films and sending the results in . Really cost prohibitive for the ordinary dog owner.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Nicole Stark said:


> Maren, perhaps I am wrong but I thought that technically or rather more specifically it could potentially mask joint laxity, which understandably I see your point but it won't mask the actual conformation of the hip joint (a shallow acetabulum or short femoral neck, remodeling of the joint, etc.). Nevertheless, the point you made is certainly with merit.


Right, specifically it can affect laxity, but would not change the bony structures. Was using dysplasia as a general term, which includes laxity and should have been more specific.


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

I just ordered this book on HD in the GSD. http://www.fredlanting.org/freds-books/


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## Megan Bays (Oct 10, 2008)

Edward Egan said:


> I just ordered this book on HD in the GSD. http://www.fredlanting.org/freds-books/


 
Thanks for the link Edward, let us know how you like it. It looks like it may be valuable to have on hand for quick reference.


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Sarah ten Bensel said:


> I contemplated PennHIP but it was wa y too expensive--$700 for all pre=labs, sedaton, films and sending the results in . Really cost prohibitive for the ordinary dog owner.


It is a tricky decision because it also could be a good investment and save a lot of money and heartache further down the track perhaps before irreversible damage is done. That is what my friend decided when she got her new pup after her performance prospect ended up with HD.

I dont regret persevering with the two sets of xrays and CTscans and exploratory surgery I did on my as it turned out ED dog. I believe it is why she is healthy and competing today. A bit of a blow to the hip pocket but thats dogs for you.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Edward Egan said:


> I just ordered this book on HD in the GSD. http://www.fredlanting.org/freds-books/


So why is a guy who is a show judge wearing a white coat and answering medical questions on his website like a veterinarian? Guess it sells more books?

(I apparently really need to write a book :lol


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Incidentally, I don't mean to say there shouldn't be non-vets or non-PhDs who write books or articles about canine orthopaedic disease. But the photo of him both on the book and the website in a white coat as if he's a vet or medical professional is a bit "off" to me... :-k

Anyways, sorry, back on topic... :smile:


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> So why is a guy who is a show judge wearing a white coat and answering medical questions on his website like a veterinarian? Guess it sells more books?
> 
> (I apparently really need to write a book :lol


Maybe you should wait until you have over 65 years with the GSD, like he does. I met this gentleman this weekend and he's the real deal! :roll:


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Remember...I'm not saying the information in the book is bad or that he doesn't know what he's talking about. I like good quality books written by laypeople. He's a long standing show judge...so why does he feel the need to wear a white lab coat (or something that looks like one, at least from the picture on his website) like a vet or scientist in his when he's not either? Maybe it's just my laptop screen though.

So Edward, you have his book...what does the photo on the back look like to you? Is it a white sport coat and the image resolution is just not very good? Even so, because the public thinks white coat=doctor, that seems an odd choice...


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

Maren, so he's wearing a lab coat, big f**king deal. Get over it. Is he a fraud because he's wearing a white coat? My god!


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

PM sent...


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> PM sent...


PM received, laughed at and replied too. ](*,)](*,)](*,):roll::roll::roll:


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## Charlotte Hince (Oct 7, 2010)

It's a sport coat I believe given if you google his name there's a photo of him in a whit suit with the same cut but I digress. 

I was talking with someone who's 8 month old Mal had his prelims done and then the vet sedated him and did the full. She's washed him out because one hip is borderline and one wouldn't pass apparently. I think it's too early personally and encouraged her to get them redone but she seems confident in the diagnosis. 

I'd wait until 18 months personally because I know I'd be keeping the dog regardless. If it was a keep or give away I'd maybe drop to 16 but 18 seems more reasonable. Get an inkling if something is wrong and have the fulls done at 2.


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## Sarah ten Bensel (Mar 16, 2008)

I actually don't think its a lab coat. Looks like sportcoat worn as a part of a suit-like an old fashioned tennis or cricket judge. I would like to know what you think of his book-lots of research stuff cited in it, and it may be a bit dated as the book has been out for sometime now.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Sarah ten Bensel said:


> .... it may be a bit dated as the book has been out for sometime now.



Isn't it only two or three years since the revision came out?



ETA

Nope, I'm wrong. Copyright 2005.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Sarah ten Bensel said:


> I actually don't think its a lab coat. Looks like sportcoat worn as a part of a suit-like an old fashioned tennis or cricket judge. I would like to know what you think of his book-lots of research stuff cited in it, and it may be a bit dated as the book has been out for sometime now.


Perhaps I am giving him too much credit for subliminal advertising :lol: or I'd need to see the actual book. I have not read it but see the 1980 edition is in the vet school library. Not sure where I can get the 2005 copy. From more of a working/performance perspective, I like most of Dr. Chris Zink's work. Not everyone agrees, but she's one of the first that puts any information out there. It'd be nice if there was more science/evidence based books written from a working dog perspective on structure and performance. Much more in the horse world, but that's probably because that's where the money and the research goes.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Perhaps I am giving him too much credit for subliminal advertising :lol:


Ah, just admit it you're a hater. [-X

Seriously though, I spoke with Fred quite a number of times back in the mid to late 90s. I found him to be both helpful and informative. Obviously, given your training and educational background you may see things differently.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Well, haters gonna hate on questionable fashion choices. :lol: 

I don't know cause I haven't read it, so won't say for sure. Might surprise you, but I usually try to take away something from many people, even those I disagree with. I don't like "gurus" or being a "disciple" of only one person or one school of thought because then you limit yourself either intentionally or unintentionally, which is not good. On the other hand, one vet mentor of mine says "don't be so open minded your brain falls out." That one's good to remember too.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

I have been in the Xray room every time for every dog for the last 18 yrs..probably at least 35 times.

I have never seen anyone wearing lead gloves...

muzzle the dog, I hold the head, they do the rest...

there is a doctor here who specializes in NON sedation xrays as well..

My vet uses mild sedation, which for some of my dogs has not worked that well at all. I personally do not mind...But I think it is pretty freaking rude to suggest that someone is trying to hide something, if they choose not to sedate...

I also would be pretty pissed off if my vet charged me for multiple shots because he and his staff, with my help, could not get a good shot the first time...I have had a few dogs where it did take a couple shots, either on elbows or hips to get it perfect...even with sedation...and never been charged for an extra shot...

and that IS a white jacket...not a lab coat..


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

repost sorry....


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## Ingrid Rosenquist (Mar 27, 2006)

I prelim elbows and Pennhip at 9 - 10 months and then I do OFA hips/elbows at 2 on all my dogs.

Honestly, the curiousity as to what their hips and elbows looks like kills me so I that is why I do what I do at 9-10 months. I redo it at 2 as I don't believe in breeding on prelims and even if I do not plan on breeding a dog, I like to get CHIC numbers on my dogs and feel the more published health testing data, the better it is for my breed.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Joby Becker said:


> I have been in the Xray room every time for every dog for the last 18 yrs..probably at least 35 times.
> 
> I have never seen anyone wearing lead gloves...


They're violating OSHA rules not wearing lead gloves and the owner is opening themselves up to lawsuits with radiation exposure to you and the staff by not following the rules. I don't make it up. In fact, I *hate* wearing lead gloves. But I hate cancer and lawsuits even worse.



> muzzle the dog, I hold the head, they do the rest...
> 
> there is a doctor here who specializes in NON sedation xrays as well..
> 
> My vet uses mild sedation, which for some of my dogs has not worked that well at all. I personally do not mind...But I think it is pretty freaking rude to suggest that someone is trying to hide something, if they choose not to sedate...


You really think there aren't quite a few unscrupulous breeders out there who have no interest in what's really there, but they just want their dogs to pass as a marketing ploy for selling pups? That's an idealist thought....I would ask why they don't want to sedate. If it was because they were worried about sedation and the side effects, like Sue, I explain my sedation drug choices and protocols. We can be flexible on what we use. I like to have a tech monitoring the dog's vitals during sedation too. If they would like an IV catheter and endotracheal tube in place for safety as well, we can accomodate that. That, to me, is the only legit reason to be worried about sedation. 



> I also would be pretty pissed off if my vet charged me for multiple shots because he and his staff, with my help, could not get a good shot the first time...I have had a few dogs where it did take a couple shots, either on elbows or hips to get it perfect...even with sedation...and never been charged for an extra shot...


I want a darn good shot to submit. I hate badly positioned radiographs. I refuse to play Wrestlemania with a dog in an uncomfortable position and end up with a junky shot that shouldn't be sent to OFA. If me and my staff are being exposed to extra radiation and I have to waste time and film and supplies because someone's dog is spazzing out because the owner won't sedate, you bet I will charge them for every shot that's wasted. Nobody thanks you for using brutamine if someone gets bite or their dog ends up getting hurt from thrashing around like an alligator. Now, if the tech didn't get quite the right positioning, the contrast wasn't right, or the x-ray machine isn't working and it has to be reshot, that's different, but if the dog is being a PITA and the owner is likewise...that's what I'm talking about. If you disagree, go elsewhere. :smile: 

Since I don't do radiographs on house calls except when I'm doing relief work somewhere at another practice, but I will in the future when I own a mortar and brick practice, I would have sedation built into the price of OFA or PennHip (if I go that route) rads. Will cost the same, sedation or not. Bottom line is I want the best and most accurate shot there is of that dog and the actual specialists (orthopaedic surgeons and radiologists) agree that it's with sedation.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> You really think there aren't quite a few unscrupulous breeders out there who have no interest in what's really there, but they just want their dogs to pass as a marketing ploy for selling pups?


I can't and won't speak for Joby but I certainly realize that this happens. In the DDB having an OFA excellent rating is unheard of yet interestingly enough the person who ends up with the first and I believe to this day only DDB with an OFA excellent rating was a vet who admitted to me cutting open a dog that she produced under the guise of the dog having ED (surgery). Then she spayed her just to sever her ties with the co owner. 

This wasn't the only example I knew of where something like this occurred. Another breeder did something similar and used this as a marketing angle, which netted a return of about 6 figures (mid) annually in just a handful of DDB they either owned directly or co owned.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

That's really sad for the breed. I know very little about the DDB as they are not very common around here. Has the breed club formally addressed the really bad hip problem? Would any members consider outcrossing to a different breed or is it like the English bulldog (genetic trainwreck and business as usual because it brings in $$$)? 

I was looking down the stats on OFA about the best percentages. I wonder if a ridgeless (because you don't want to introduce the ridge bad juju in there) Rhodesian ridgeback might be a possibility. With the Dalmatian backcross project, the English pointer and the Dalmatian don't look terribly similar, but one outcross with some generations of backcrossing in between and it looks basically like a Dalmatian again. I'm not a big ridgeback person, but looks like they have a pretty high percentage of OFA excellents and a low percentage of dysplastics. Similar color, similar coat texture, might improve the breathing of the DDB? Might be interesting...


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> That's really sad for the breed. I know very little about the DDB as they are not very common around here. Has the breed club formally addressed the really bad hip problem? Would any members consider outcrossing to a different breed or is it like the English bulldog (genetic trainwreck and business as usual because it brings in $$$)?
> 
> Similar color, similar coat texture, might improve the breathing of the DDB? Might be interesting...


Yes, a strong emphasis has been placed on the high incidence of HD in the breed. As a matter of fact I checked back tonight and found that a number programs/material utilized while I was on the BOD and Health Committee still exist today but what pleased me more was to see the progress made since I left the breed club. 

Maren, I am guessing here but you probably haven't paid much attention to my posts regarding the DDB I have now, which was one of the gifted dogs I spoke of. I've stated it here previously but how do you think she's bred? There's about 30 years of combined effort (foundation line shift back in with an outcross) behind this dog and I am very comfortable saying that while not fully suited for the type of work primarily represented here the DS I have doesn't hold a candle to this dog. Additionally the one I had previous to her was part boxer (1/4 - 1/8th) and a rather nice dog as well (drivey, athletic, biddable, etc).

One thing I have always said about the DDB is to look in the direction of those with a black mask. Largely it's the mask that distinguishes why and how they are different (longevity, structure, hip conformation, etc).


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> They're violating OSHA rules not wearing lead gloves and the owner is opening themselves up to lawsuits with radiation exposure to you and the staff by not following the rules. I don't make it up. In fact, I *hate* wearing lead gloves. But I hate cancer and lawsuits even worse.


Well I obviously don't know OSHA vet rules, got me there..I have had xrays done at at least 5 different vets, and never saw anyone wearing gloves. Vests yes, gloves NO. If I have cancer, maybe I should try to sue them...:-o 




> You really think there aren't quite a few unscrupulous breeders out there who have no interest in what's really there, but they just want their dogs to pass as a marketing ploy for selling pups? That's an idealist thought....I would ask why they don't want to sedate. If it was because they were worried about sedation and the side effects, like Sue, I explain my sedation drug choices and protocols. We can be flexible on what we use. I like to have a tech monitoring the dog's vitals during sedation too. If they would like an IV catheter and endotracheal tube in place for safety as well, we can accomodate that. That, to me, is the only legit reason to be worried about sedation.


You are entitled to your opinion, I suppose, it just came off as rude to me. It was suggested to me that I go to Dr. Link, in my area, he is one of the vets who does not sedate, I will call him to find out why.

Some people I know just plain do not want to sedate, period. That is their choice...do you reall judge your patients motivations as to why they would not want to sedate...


Never had any vet IV or endotracheal whatever either for an xray...this sounds extra expensive to me...





> I want a darn good shot to submit. I hate badly positioned radiographs. I refuse to play Wrestlemania with a dog in an uncomfortable position and end up with a junky shot that shouldn't be sent to OFA. If me and my staff are being exposed to extra radiation and I have to waste time and film and supplies because someone's dog is spazzing out because the owner won't sedate, you bet I will charge them for every shot that's wasted. Nobody thanks you for using brutamine if someone gets bite or their dog ends up getting hurt from thrashing around like an alligator. Now, if the tech didn't get quite the right positioning, the contrast wasn't right, or the x-ray machine isn't working and it has to be reshot, that's different, but if the dog is being a PITA and the owner is likewise...that's what I'm talking about. If you disagree, go elsewhere. :smile:


Digital xray....delete file, re-take...maybe he should charge xtra for the electrical power consumed as well, that has to cost a bunch...



> Since I don't do radiographs on house calls except when I'm doing relief work somewhere at another practice, but I will in the future when I own a mortar and brick practice, I would have sedation built into the price of OFA or PennHip (if I go that route) rads. Will cost the same, sedation or not. Bottom line is I want the best and most accurate shot there is of that dog and the actual specialists (orthopaedic surgeons and radiologists) agree that it's with sedation.


DO ALL of the specialists actually agree on that?

for the record...every hip xray I have gotten done, the dog WAS sedated...but If my vet did them without, I would not insist on it, as long as the xray is done correctly, that is just me personally.

just came off as accusatory to me, thats all...along with your comments on the color of a man's coat.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Joby Becker said:


> Well I obviously don't know OSHA vet rules, got me there..I have had xrays done at at least 5 different vets, and never saw anyone wearing gloves. Vests yes, gloves NO. If I have cancer, maybe I should try to sue them...:-o


Yes, I even got yelled at in vet school by a radiology resident for putting a lead glove on top of my hands (not wearing them) trying to take rads of a fractious cat in respiratory distress because I couldn't grip them properly. Apparently the scatter radiation from the patient is as problematic as the direct radiation from the machine.




> You are entitled to your opinion, I suppose, it just came off as rude to me. It was suggested to me that I go to Dr. Link, in my area, he is one of the vets who does not sedate, I will call him to find out why.
> 
> Some people I know just plain do not want to sedate, period. That is their choice...do you reall judge your patients motivations as to why they would not want to sedate...


Yes, I do. I want to know why because then I can probably answer their concern as that's part of my job. "I just don't" is not a correct answer. 



> Never had any vet IV or endotracheal whatever either for an xray...this sounds extra expensive to me...


Some vets actually do this for every animal they sedate for anything. I don't think it's so-called standard of care, but it's not a bad safety precaution to have access to their airway and to a vein. Sedation drugs used today are typically very safe and I like the reversible ones, but if someone like Sue was worried and wanted extra precautions, I can do that. Yes, it would be more money. But some want extra peace of mind and nothing wrong with that. 



> Digital xray....delete file, re-take...maybe he should charge xtra for the electrical power consumed as well, that has to cost a bunch...


I love a good digital system, but most private practices still don't have digital. I know practices that don't even have an automatic processor and still dip and develop films by hand. There's not necessarily a huge compelling reason to upgrade if you don't have to as it's very, very expensive if you want a good one. Planning in advance for what I'd like to open up in about 5-6 years, it would probably cost about 100K+ for a good digital system for my purposes. 

Even if I had digital, I would still charge. They are taking up my time and my staff's time by going against what I recommend. I have cancer prevalent in my family. I do not want to expose myself or my staff to extra radiation either. I want it one and done.



> DO ALL of the specialists actually agree on that?
> for the record...every hip xray I have gotten done, the dog WAS sedated...but If my vet did them without, I would not insist on it, as long as the xray is done correctly, that is just me personally. just came off as accusatory to me, thats all...along with your comments on the color of a man's coat.


Yes, the ones I've talked to both in person and researched on VIN. When I say specialist, I mean someone who is residency trained and board certified by the American College of Veterinary Radiology or American College of Veterinary Surgeons, not a general practitioner who has a special interest in something. There is no such thing as a "specialist" who takes no sedation radiographs in the context it was mentioned in this thread. 

Remember, the number of breeders across the nation who are truly interested in the health of their dogs versus those wanting to make a buck is few and far between. My best interest is in the patient and making sure we get an accurate film to gauge that dog's health as priority number one, not just running them through to make them pass so they can go ahead and make puppies and dollars for the breeder.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

I've worked with a GSD breeder in the past that always prelimmed at 20 weeks. I bought a dog from them based on her 20 week prelims and that rating was consistent throughout her life. I think OFA has said in the past that if the prelim rating was "good," that rating is the same in 2 year olds in 85% of the dogs. So yes, you want to look at them again later with prelims. I've had dogs that I prelimmed at 6 months, 10 months and 1 year. The local vets here are doing a lot of films without sedation and judging by the age of my dogs that's been the case for greater than 10 years. This is the preference. I've been involved in settling the dog with the techs and then duck out to the doorway while they shoot. Gorgeous films and passing ratings. Maren its going to be interesting how many breeder clients you maintain with your attitude regarding them justifying to you whether they want sedation or not or whether they want to submit films. Personally, I don't care if they realize that they can't market pups out of un-certified parents as long as the information is there. I'm not a PennHip person and wouldn't pay for it. Contrary to what they say, it has been shown in certain dogs that if done twice, that DI can change over the lifetime of the dog. It was pricey marketing when it came out and it has been used to perpetuate HD [IMO]. As Lynda and I've seen in her breed, a lot of people really don't understand PennHip. As for Fred Lanting, that book is probably older than 30 years. In the first edition, he didn't write the articles and the articles were very good. If you've followed him in the GSD world and the showline GSDs in particular he's quite the character and wouldn't have much if any credibility on several issues [for me, anyway].

I'm not one to return a dog. I do work with breeders that replace dogs that don't pass OFA. For me what that means that when I'm ready down the line, they will give me another dog. Those types of breeders, as well as myself are happy that the individual will keep the dog. I understand where Nancy is at. She has a specific working purpose and the health must hold up. You want to know as early as possible what those hips are and doing serial radiographs will help you catch it. In training a working dogs, there is a lot of time and money involved and you need to know if the dog's body can hold up and not put him in injury potential or disease worsening situations.

Terrasita


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

You're right of course, Maren I should have said my examples (Drs Witecamp & Stern) are vets who were/are well known for their ability to take fast and accurate xrays (no need for "do overs" without sedation of working/sport GSDs and Malinios.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

susan tuck said:


> You're right of course, Maren I should have said my examples (Drs Witecamp & Stern) are vets who were/are well known for their ability to take fast and accurate xrays (no need for "do overs" without sedation of working/sport GSDs and Malinios.


It's no problem...it may seem kind of a minor picking point, but at least in my state, I'm not allowed to call myself a specialist unless I'm board certified (which I'm not yet anyways ). There are some general practitioners that have a very high level of proficiency with certain areas, but they're supposed to call them "special interests" instead of "specialties." *shrug*


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Assuming I see no issues, which the OP mentioned, I xray around 18 months. Sometimes 20, 22, etc. Early enough that I'm not really pushing the dog jumping wise yet, but late enough to get a good OFA prelim. I don't redo xrays at 24 months (some people have asked me to) because I don't see that 6, 4, 2, whatever months is going to make a difference, I'm not going to do it all over again just to get that final OFA vs a prelim. Especially now that OFA will put 12-23 month prelim data on their website. 

If the dog goes under for some other reason later in life I will usually have my vet shoot both back and hip xrays, just to see if there are any changes, but those don't normally get sent off to anyone, unless there is a concern. 

My vet sedates for xrays, so that's what we do. He's not the best at positioning, I use him for other reasons and should probably find someone specifically for OFA's, but he gets a workable xray. He also freely admits that to me though  I suspect if I used someone who was better at getting perfect positioning, and also didn't sedate, I might get higher ratings on the dogs, but frankly I'm more interested in pass vs fail than anything else, once we've got that out of the way there is a lot more to do before I decide if a dog is breeding quality, and if the dog is just for work, a pass is all I need.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> It's no problem...it may seem kind of a minor picking point, but at least in my state, I'm not allowed to call myself a specialist unless I'm board certified (which I'm not yet anyways ). There are some general practitioners that have a very high level of proficiency with certain areas, but they're supposed to call them "special interests" instead of "specialties." *shrug*


Just to be clear, those vets don't/didn't refer to themselves as specialists, that was all me!!! 

Do you know what the over-all difference is between dogs who are sedated vs those that aren't? A percentage or average grade differences or something? 

I do know there is that one vet who did this study:

http://troyanimalhospital.com/files...Grade_When_Sedated__Anesthetized_or_Awake.pdf

I think if I muddled through this and got the gist of what she's saying, she says her figures show the difference is more about positioning then whether the dog is sedated or not? Obviously this is just one person and one practice, so please know I am not stupid enough to think this refutes what you're saying, I just thought it was interesting in light of the discussion. Do you think there is any merit in her position?


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Maren its going to be interesting how many breeder clients you maintain with your attitude regarding them justifying to you whether they want sedation or not or whether they want to submit films.


I won't apologize for having to practice with high standards. The specialists agree that sedating is the best way to do it and I agree. The medical interests of the patient come before those of even the client. I'm not paid to make the client feel good. If I lose a client because their interest is in their pocketbook and not the health of their dogs or their breed, they can go elsewhere. No big loss to me except that in the end, it's the dogs that suffer.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Remember, the number of breeders across the nation who are truly interested in the health of their dogs versus those wanting to make a buck is few and far between.


REALLY...you know this? how many breeders have told you that they are only interested in making money, and not really interested in the health of their dogs...I think most people that actually take the time to xray ARE interested in finding out the truth about the dogs hip/elbow/spinal...status..

What research do you have to make this claim?


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

So why would a vet not want to do it at 4 months and a few days, after calling OFA - already light sedation for another procedure. .....

She said there would be too much laxity at that age to truly get a good assessment. Is there that much difference at 5 months or 6 months? I was not looking for a rating. I asked her if she had any concerns about the puppy and she said she did not.

They do good digital x-rays at that particular practice (for other things I have had done, emergency type stuff)


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

It's pretty obvious when I hear common statements like "I don't want my dog sedated because I've heard it makes their hips look looser." They are either uninformed (they don't realize that a tense dog can show a false negative for hip dysplasia, which is not what they want) or they don't really care what they look like, they just want them to look as good as possible to pass (even if they shouldn't) as a marketing ploy. 

Don't get me wrong, Joby. I love good breeders who are honest and genuinely care about their dogs and their breed's health. There's just many in the general population, working breeders included, who simply aren't. Caveat emptor. :-(


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> I won't apologize for having to practice with high standards. The specialists agree that sedating is the best way to do it and I agree. The medical interests of the patient come before those of even the client. I'm not paid to make the client feel good. If I lose a client because their interest is in their pocketbook and not the health of their dogs or their breed, they can go elsewhere. No big loss to me except that in the end, it's the dogs that suffer.


Maren, this is just pure judgement, control and a rant about breeders. What specialists and better why??? Maybe because as specialists, hip and elbow x-rays are the least that they do in their practice as specialist radiologists. There also isn't any medical interests of the patient at stake and its not necessarily about someone's pocketbook. You always assume these things. Throw in the emotional--dog will be at risk and suffer if you don't sedate??? What dog will suffer and how will it suffer if the x-rays are done without sedation? The reason someone doesn't want to sedate is that its about their pocketbook??? Really??I know breeders that do entire litters. I'm sure controlling costs enables some to do that or would contribute to them doing it. That's a good thing. Maybe its about the vet's pocketbook and that's why they prefer sedation just like they prefer to shoot dogs up annually with every vaccine available on the market. Maybe the owner cares more about their dog than you do in that they don't want to risk sedation side effects for what you describe as a grand puppy marketing scheme. Its about getting the correct positioning. If you have the patience and technique, with some dogs you can get this without sedation. Maybe you aren't comfortable with doing it without sedation. When we first started doing them without sedation it was at the vet's recommendation and one that had been doing it at that time more like 20 years and more than 30 years now. 

There are breeders who have built 30-40 years of breeding on utilizing this information. 

Terrasita


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Nancy Jocoy said:


> So why would a vet not want to do it at 4 months and a few days, after calling OFA - already light sedation for another procedure. .....
> 
> She said there would be too much laxity at that age to truly get a good assessment. Is there that much difference at 5 months or 6 months? I was not looking for a rating. I asked her if she had any concerns about the puppy and she said she did not.
> 
> They do good digital x-rays at that particular practice (for other things I have had done, emergency type stuff)


This is why you have to research outside the vet and then say humor me, do it anyway. It takes a vet that has the x-ray experience to look at films at dogs at different ages. When we did Rory's x-rays at 2, the vet put his 6 months films on the light table to compare. He pointed out how much he had "improved." He prelimmed good and certified good. On the human side, when my son was xrayed, the tech said, she couldn't look at kid's x-rays. I asked her about what was a fissure like area and she just shook her head. The hospital radiologist said he was fine--no fracture. The next morning, the pediatrician called and said he didn't agree with the finding and wanted us to see a pediatric ortho specialist. So we made an appointment and the specialist said that he felt that there was a tiny fracture. I asked him to show it to me. Surprise, surprise---it was the tiny fissure like line I questioned. 

There are two components--taking a technically correct film AND interpreting. Interpreting can be an art, not just objective knowledge, based on experience. I would say your vet doesn't study all the stuff that's out there on hip/elbow evaluations. PennHip talks in terms of 16 weeks and I think years ago OFA established the 20 week marker.

T


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Maren, this is just pure judgement, control and a rant about breeders. What specialists and better why??? Maybe because as specialists, hip and elbow x-rays are the least that they do in their practice as specialist radiologists. There also isn't any medical interests of the patient at stake and its not necessarily about someone's pocketbook. You always assume these things. Throw in the emotional--dog will be at risk and suffer if you don't sedate??? What dog will suffer and how will it suffer if the x-rays are done without sedation? The reason someone doesn't want to sedate is that its about their pocketbook??? Really??I know breeders that do entire litters. I'm sure controlling costs enables some to do that or would contribute to them doing it. That's a good thing. Maybe its about the vet's pocketbook and that's why they prefer sedation just like they prefer to shoot dogs up annually with every vaccine available on the market. Maybe the owner cares more about their dog than you do in that they don't want to risk sedation side effects for what you describe as a grand puppy marketing scheme. Its about getting the correct positioning. If you have the patience and technique, with some dogs you can get this without sedation. Maybe you aren't comfortable with doing it without sedation. When we first started doing them without sedation it was at the vet's recommendation and one that had been doing it at that time more like 20 years and more than 30 years now.
> 
> There are breeders who have built 30-40 years of breeding on utilizing this information.
> 
> Terrasita


No, Terrasita, this is what it boils down to (bolded emphasis mine), not woe to the poor breeder theatrics: 

_Impact of sedation method on the diagnosis of hip and elbow dysplasia in Swedish dogs _

Author(s): Malm S (Malm, Sofia), Strandberg E (Strandberg, Erfing), Danell B (Danell, Birgitta), Audell L (Audell, Lars), Swenson L (Swenson, Lennart), Hedhammar A (Hedhammar, Ake) 
Source: PREVENTIVE VETERINARY MEDICINE Volume: 78 Issue: 3-4 Pages: 196-209 Published: MAR 17 2007 
Times Cited: 4 References: 41 Citation Map 
Abstract: Our objective was to investigate the effect of sedation method on the screening result for hip and elbow dysplasia. The study was based on a questionnaire survey of routines for hip and elbow screening at Swedish veterinary clinics and results of hip and elbow status, for eight breeds (Bernese Mountain Dog, Boxer, German Shepherd Dog, Golden Retriever, Labrador Retriever, Newfoundland, Rottweiler, and Saint Bernard) recorded by the Swedish Kennel Club. In total 5877 and 5406 dogs examined for hip and elbow dysplasia, respectively, from January 2002 through March 2003 were included. We used logistic regression to examine whether the type of chemical restraint used for sedation affected the screening result for hip and elbow dysplasia. In addition to sedation method, the effects of veterinary clinic, sex, breed, and age at screening were studied.

*The type of chemical restraint used for sedation affected the screening result for hip but not for elbow dysplasia.* Acepromazine gave less than half the odds of hip dysplasia compared with medetomidine and butorphanol (the most common method), medetomidine alone or xylazine. Females had about 25% higher odds for developing hip dysplasia whereas males had almost 40% higher odds for developing elbow dysplasia. Saint Bernard, Newfoundland and German Shepherd Dog had the highest odds of developing hip dysplasia, whereas Rottweiler and Labrador Retriever had the lowest odds. Boxer had the lowest risk for elbow dysplasia, followed by Labrador Retriever. Saint Bernard and Rottweiler had the highest odds of elbow dysplasia. Increasing age increased the odds of both hip and elbow dysplasia, by about 2.5% per month.

Following the results in this study, recording of the type of chemical restraint used for sedation during hip screening has now become mandatory in Sweden. This makes it possible to account for the effect of sedation method in a model for prediction of breeding values for hip dysplasia. (c) 2006 Elsevier B.V. All rights reserved.


_Influence of anaesthesia on canine hip dysplasia score _

Author(s): Genevs JP (Genevs, J. -P.), Chanoit G (Chanoit, G.), Carozzo C (Carozzo, C.), Remy D (Remy, D.), Fau D (Fau, D.), Viguier E (Viguier, E.) 
Source: JOURNAL OF VETERINARY MEDICINE SERIES A-PHYSIOLOGY PATHOLOGY CLINICAL MEDICINE Volume: 53 Issue: 8 Pages: 415-417 Published: OCT 2006 
Times Cited: 2 References: 12 Citation Map 
Abstract: Hip dysplasia (HD) scores, based on the five grades, as defined by the Federation Cynologique Internationale, were compared between anaesthetized (group 1, n = 3839) and non-sedated non-anaesthetized dogs (group 2, n = 1517). Each dog was radiographed in the standard ventro-dorsal hip joint extended position. Each radiograph was evaluated by the same reader blinded regarding the dog's status of anaesthesia. *Results showed that there was a significant difference in hip dysplasia prevalence between group 1 (22%) compared with group 2 (9%) (P < 0.005).* This difference was the result of a lower rate of hip-joint laxity assessment and the measurement of Norberg-Olsson angle < 105 degrees in group 2 compared with group 1. The acetabular and femoral morphologies were not significantly different between the groups. *The data confirm that the scoring of dogs for HD on standard radiographs with the hip joints extended is influenced by anaesthesia. *

_EFFECT OF ANESTHESIA AND STRESS ON THE RADIOGRAPHIC EVALUATION OF THE COXOFEMORAL JOINT 
_ 
Author(s): MADSEN JS, SVALASTOGA E 
Source: JOURNAL OF SMALL ANIMAL PRACTICE Volume: 32 Issue: 2 Pages: 64-68 Published: FEB 1991 
Times Cited: 13 References: 15 Citation Map 
Abstract: A pelvic radiographic examination was performed on 15 large breed dogs without history and clinical sign of hip dysplasia. The effect of anaesthesia and of two stress-radiographic methods on the coxofemoral subluxation was evaluated. *With anaesthesia a mild coxofemoral subluxation was seen in 31 per cent of the dogs, which all appeared radiographically normal when sedated. The Norberg angle was significantly decreased in anaesthetised dogs (P < 0.05)*. When dogs with a radiographically normal coxofemoral joint conformation were submitted to a stress-radiographic examination there was a shift towards an increased coxofemoral subluxation. Subluxation was seen in 70 per cent of the dogs when the knee fixation method of positioning was applied and in 100 per cent of the dogs when the wedge method was used. Correspondingly the Norberg angle decreased significantly when the coxofermoral joints were stressed (P(kneefix) < 0.00003; P(wedge) = 0.000008). The study concludes that the currently used procedure for evaluation of the hip joints does not necessarily disclose whether or not a dog has hip dysplasia.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

For one of OFA/Dr. Keller's great discussions on all of this: 

http://www.malamutehealth.org/articles/orthopedic_ofa_hda.htm


There's also another article worth considering on this site.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> No, Terrasita, this is what it boils down to (bolded emphasis mine), not woe to the poor breeder theatrics:
> 
> _Impact of sedation method on the diagnosis of hip and elbow dysplasia in Swedish dogs _
> 
> ...


Maren:

You were the first person I thought of yesterday when I was reading the Wall Street Journal article concerning scientific studies and how the results can't be reproduced in repeat studies. The scientific community has been under increased pressure to explain the lack of objectivity in their experiments. There is an entire philosophical debate concerning whether these studies are objective vs. bought and paid for or designed to keep someone's job. I don't think your cited studies really support anything you've had to say regarding requiring anesthesia.

First, they toss out terms without explaining like sedation vs. anesthesia yet anesthesia is a type of sedation. 

Study #1: Less dysplasia with Acepromazine than 3 other agents. Then the study acknowledges that there are several other variables considered other than the type of anesthesia. So do I assume that the other agents are under the anesthesia category and Ace is a sedative or the dog is less knocked out?

I want them to take the same dog and do x rays under both and reviewed with the same with the method of knock out blind to the reviewer.

Study #2: Anesthetized vs. non sedated, non anesthetized. Question, with the anesthetized group; is it general anesthesia or something like Ace? Result: Based on joint laxity and Norberg angle, the anesthetized group had more dysplasia [22%] than the non-sedated/anesthetized [9%] group. Sockets and femoral head morphology was the same in both.

Again, it doesn't necessarily tell me that the same dog was done both ways and came up with different evaluations. Are they saying that group 1 had more than double the amount of dogs in the study with the "n" value or does that mean something else. So anesthesia shows more laxity. If this is true, you would have to come up with to what degree and how it relates to functional laxity. Regardless, there are other aspects of the evaluation relied upon. 

Study #3: Talk about a zillion variables. They compared anesthesia, and two different restraint techniques. They had dogs that "appeared" normal with sedation. However, 31 percent has mild subluxation and decreased Norberg under anesthesia. What factors did they base their normal assessment on? What about the other 68%--they were the same regardless of sedation/anesthesia--why? Then they say with normal radiogaphs [technique???], you had increased subluxation with the restraint systems as evidenced by the decreased Norberg angle. 

A lot of times when you read the complete study, you find out the variables involved and rationale for the differences. So do we have false laxity findings with anesthesia or false tightness with sedation or non-sedation? Since OFA and and the Swedes want to know the method of sedation, have they adopted a +/- system in their evaluation to eliminate that variable?

Terrasita


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Maren:
> 
> You were the first person I thought of yesterday when I was reading the Wall Street Journal article concerning scientific studies and how the results can't be reproduced in repeat studies. The scientific community has been under increased pressure to explain the lack of objectivity in their experiments. There is an entire philosophical debate concerning whether these studies are objective vs. bought and paid for or designed to keep someone's job. I don't think your cited studies really support anything you've had to say regarding requiring anesthesia.
> 
> ...


So certain types of sedation or anesthsia can actually cause false positives?? 
or am I wrong in me deductions..


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Hey Maren I neglected to thank you for the info about fast acting sedation with reversing agents, that sets my mind more at ease. I think in the future I will consider having my dogs xrayed with light sedation, as you suggested, just to be on the safe side. I'm not a breeder, but having a dog healthy enough to be competitive at my chosen sport and not crippled, is important to me. 

Unfortunately with my breed of choice (GSD), it's looking more and more like I need to have my dogs get a complete full body scan (hips/elbows/spine/shoulders) in order to determine it's viability to compete and be healthy.
:-(


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> So certain types of sedation or anesthsia can actually cause false positives??
> or am I wrong in me deductions..


That's my problem with the studies, you don't really know which [false positive vs. false negative] or other variables. You can skew a study anyway you want. There are breeders and vets that have been in the trenches doing the comparatives that far exceed what they are doing in the so-called studies.

T


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> That's my problem with the studies, you don't really know which [false positive vs. false negative] or other variables. You can skew a study anyway you want. There are breeders and vets that have been in the trenches doing the comparatives that far exceed what they are doing in the so-called studies.
> 
> T


really? years and 1000's of instances hands on experience, might be more valuable than a controlled, possibly skewed study?? surely you jest...

I might just go to Dr. Link for OFA...NO sedation...and compare that to my 22 month sedated xray, and do a little research for myself...


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> really? years and 1000's of instances hands on experience, might be more valuable than a controlled, possibly skewed study?? surely you jest...
> 
> I might just go to Dr. Link for OFA...NO sedation...and compare that to my 22 month sedated xray, and do a little research for myself...


Nope, do both x-rays the same day---one with sedation, one without. If you were really into it, do one with a light reversible, under general and without on the same dog and have them read blind by the same panel. As a breeder, you have the x-ray information and then you have the information of how the dog worked and lived throughout his life and how he held up in old age. All of this correlates. I tend to like x-rays done at age 3ish or even older, not the day the dog turns 2. 

T


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Uh Joby, if you read the abstracts, there were over 11,000 dogs in the first one and over 5,000 in the second. The last article was from 20 years ago and used only 15 dogs, but if you know anything about statistics in experimental design, if you find it with 15 dogs, you're likely to find it with 150, 1500, or 15,000. Increasing your sample size just increases your power.

Which makes more logical sense: that you would have false positives (i.e.- a dog with normal correct laxity is shown to be falsely dysplastic under sedation) or that you have more false negatives (i.e.-a dog with actual pathologic laxity could be hidden under muscle tension with no sedation)? A healthy round ligament of the head of the femur and the joint capsule doesn't suddenly turn into Gumby with muscle relaxation from sedation. Knowing the anatomy, it makes much more sense that a dog that isn't relaxed can hide laxity.

In addition, which is safer for a breeding program: to eliminate false positives from your breeding pool or to include false negatives? All other things being equal and if you have a respectably sized gene pool, I'd say it's better to eliminate false positives (dogs that are actually normal) rather than include false negatives (dogs that are hiding laxity). If you get a passing score under sedation, that's about the best you can do. I follow the recommendations of the orthopaedic surgeons and radiologists. If you guys want to stick your heads in the sand, be my guest. 

Acepromazine is not an effective or reliable sedative for muscle relaxation on its own. Meditomidine (and its close cousin dexmeditomidine, which I use) and xylazine, as members of the same alpha 2 drug class, are better true sedatives. Ace is in another drug class. I have used it in combination with other drugs (like an alpha 2, opioid, or a benzodiazepine), but I wouldn't use it by itself for these purposes. 

Anyways, one of my dogs is ill and I must go tend to her. Sue, thanks...you're a good owner. Let me know if it comes up again in the future and you have questions.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Uh Joby, if you read the abstracts, there were over 11,000 dogs in the first one and over 5,000 in the second. The last article was from 20 years ago and used only 15 dogs, but if you know anything about statistics in experimental design, if you find it with 15 dogs, you're likely to find it with 150, 1500, or 15,000. Increasing your sample size just increases your power.
> 
> Which makes more logical sense: that you would have false positives (i.e.- a dog with normal correct laxity is shown to be falsely dysplastic under sedation) or that you have more false negatives (i.e.-a dog with actual pathologic laxity could be hidden under muscle tension with no sedation)? A healthy round ligament of the head of the femur and the joint capsule doesn't suddenly turn into Gumby with muscle relaxation from sedation. Knowing the anatomy, it makes much more sense that a dog that isn't relaxed can hide laxity.
> 
> ...



There are no heads in the sand. We are the ones that have seen the multi-generational x-rays and watched the dogs live and work. Nor have your cited studies citied to the degree of laxity difference between the methods. These studies didn't set it up to get the most useful information. Now its radiologists and ortho surgeons---who and based on what--the same studies???? Next time I'm hanging out with the x-ray vets that have done thousands at different ages and within breeds, I'm going to ask what they think in terms of appreciable difference and how they account for it. Also, is it per se true that you can't get the dog relaxed without sedation. You can't really design a program off false positive or false negative. Besides, laxity is one component of that evaluation. Femoral heads, sockets??? These weren't affected. So the mild and borderline category might be affected by anesthesia but moderate and severe I bet aren't subject to false findings based on sedation. The issue isn't even number of dogs but number of variables that can affect the result besides the 1 or 2 things supposedly studied. 

T


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I asked our helper when the dog was about 14 months old and he said by the way he pressures up from the ground in jumping to bite the sleeve, he has no HD but X-Ray will prove the results.

They did, his hips are excellent according to the German Vet.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> There are no heads in the sand. We are the ones that have seen the multi-generational x-rays and watched the dogs live and work. Nor have your cited studies citied to the degree of laxity difference between the methods. These studies didn't set it up to get the most useful information. Now its radiologists and ortho surgeons---who and based on what--the same studies???? Next time I'm hanging out with the x-ray vets that have done *thousands* at different ages and within breeds, I'm going to ask what they think in terms of appreciable difference and how they account for it. Also, is it per se true that you can't get the dog relaxed without sedation. You can't really design a program off false positive or false negative. Besides, laxity is one component of that evaluation. Femoral heads, sockets??? These weren't affected. So the mild and borderline category might be affected by anesthesia but moderate and severe I bet aren't subject to false findings based on sedation. The issue isn't even number of dogs but number of variables that can affect the result besides the 1 or 2 things supposedly studied.
> 
> T


I externed at three private practices in north central, southwestern, and eastern Missouri before I graduated and I specifically asked them how many OFAs they did. They all did no more than 5 per year and one services some rather large hunting dog kennels. I did a working interview at a very busy mostly repro practice in Utah that is very well known for working with show breeders (and some working/performance people) because they do PennHip as well. Didn't see a single PennHip or OFA done in over a week, much to my chagrin. I did private practice externships in Colorado, Nebraska (both AAHA accredited general private practice), and Georgia (specialty referral hospital) as well, no OFAs done there. Was down at the University of Tennessee for a month. None down there in the two weeks I was on the rehab rotation. Didn't see any on my 3 week radiology rotation or my 3 weeks on community practice (where they intake OFAs) during vet school at Mizzou, where we have several professors read for OFA. Because I wanted to make absolute certain I knew how to set them up correctly, I had to go out of my way and ask one of my radiology professors who reads for OFA to demonstrate exactly how he wants them, so I knew they were done right. 

So please, tell me which private practice in St. Louis does *THOUSANDS* of OFA films so I know where to send my St. Louis clients who don't want to drive out to the university. I will call them and ask.

As for the rest...of course laxity is just one component. But if you don't have a tight ball and socket joint through both good hard and soft tissue structures, you're going to have problems.


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## Louise Jollyman (Jun 2, 2009)

I try to do prelims at 6-9 months. With Elessar we did his first prelim at 5 months, and the hips looked a little loose but OK, came back OFA Fair, we then x-rayed him at a year, thinking we would just do his a-stamp, and he was dysplastic at that time, so I try to leave the prelims a little later now. Below are Elessar's x-rays. At the bottom is Belladonna's prelim OFA good at 7.5 months, she just went OFA good at 2 years old.

Elessar - 5 months - 









Elessar - 12 months - 









Belladonna - 7.5 months - 











http://www.schutzhund-training.com/


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> I externed at three private practices in north central, southwestern, and eastern Missouri before I graduated and I specifically asked them how many OFAs they did. They all did no more than 5 per year and one services some rather large hunting dog kennels. I did a working interview at a very busy mostly repro practice in Utah that is very well known for working with show breeders (and some working/performance people) because they do PennHip as well. Didn't see a single PennHip or OFA done in over a week, much to my chagrin. I did private practice externships in Colorado, Nebraska (both AAHA accredited general private practice), and Georgia (specialty referral hospital) as well, no OFAs done there. Was down at the University of Tennessee for a month. None down there in the two weeks I was on the rehab rotation. Didn't see any on my 3 week radiology rotation or my 3 weeks on community practice (where they intake OFAs) during vet school at Mizzou, where we have several professors read for OFA. Because I wanted to make absolute certain I knew how to set them up correctly, I had to go out of my way and ask one of my radiology professors who reads for OFA to demonstrate exactly how he wants them, so I knew they were done right.
> 
> So please, tell me which private practice in St. Louis does *THOUSANDS* of OFA films so I know where to send my St. Louis clients who don't want to drive out to the university. I will call them and ask.
> 
> As for the rest...of course laxity is just one component. But if you don't have a tight ball and socket joint through both good hard and soft tissue structures, you're going to have problems.


Maren,

Some of us have been doing this for 20+ years. I still remember when OFA started and Dr. Keller did seminars locally. Try Belkin Animal Hospital if they are still doing them. This was the breeder choice for several breeds for years. I was told that Dr. Garber took over Dr. Keller's practice when he went to OFA. Dr. Garber is pretty good about putting up films for comparison an explaining what he is looking for. He's certainly the one that taught me the most. Its a bonus to be there with a breeder who is doing multiple dogs of various ages. Chesterfield [Thornberry/Boilat] does the health clinics. Both have been doing without anesthesia for years. Even OFA describes it as "chemical restraint to the point of relaxation," for the best positioning. There are websites that have compiled lists regarding vets who will do these without anesthesia. There is also the recommendation that you train your puppies/dogs to relax for the x-rays. I didn't do anything special with our previous dogs that were done without anesthesia but it could be a good idea to play with this with the puppies.

T


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Been pretty busy the last couple of days, but I called Belkin. The receptionist looked at her computer and said they do about three OFAs a month. Three a month is 36 a year. You'd have to be in practice 55 and a half years to get up to two thousand. 

Anesthesia? The sedation protocol I would use in a general practice does not produce unconsciousness or "general anesthesia" as would be used for a surgical procedure.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Been pretty busy the last couple of days, but I called Belkin. The receptionist looked at her computer and said they do about three OFAs a month. Three a month is 36 a year. You'd have to be in practice 55 and a half years to get up to two thousand.
> 
> Anesthesia? The sedation protocol I would use in a general practice does not produce unconsciousness or "general anesthesia" as would be used for a surgical procedure.


Maybe now. I know breeders who do more than those in a day Maren. I've done that many in a day. I think he x-rayed my first dog more than 25 years ago. I think Keller went to OFA in 1982/84. In his heyday with the GSD people alone, it was more than 3 a month. He used to do every Wednesday and some of those would be filled and you couldn't get in. The last time we referred someone they said they didn't do them anymore; although he did my Dad's GSD. Good to know he's still doing them. I want him to do my young dogs. He's also great and really reasonable on pregnancy x-rays. A lot of people are doing the clinics--hips, elbows, heart, thyroid, CERF which happen a couple of times a year. Poll the Golden club about how many Chesterfield Valley does for those. Chesterfield Valley also does w/o anesthesia or sedation. Hook up with breeders who do entire litters in a day or within a couple of visits. Its pretty cool to tag along for the film reading and comparisons. 

T


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Been pretty busy the last couple of days, but I called Belkin. The receptionist looked at her computer and said they do about three OFAs a month. Three a month is 36 a year. You'd have to be in practice 55 and a half years to get up to two thousand.
> 
> Anesthesia? The sedation protocol I would use in a general practice does not produce unconsciousness or "general anesthesia" as would be used for a surgical procedure.


don't really care, but a receptionist looking at a computer and saying "we do about 3 a month", I would not call an accurate way to determine anything...

I called my vet last year, and the receptionist had no clue why anyone would want a spinal xray, and just a few months ago, a different receptionist was not sure if they did dewclaw removal, or health certificates...had to put me on hold..lol

I doubt even a vet himself would know how many OFA's they have done without looking into some kind of database, if they even have one..and then you also have to take into consideration how many OFA "style" xrays are done, that are not submitted to the OFA..

for all we know, some receptionist, looked at appointment log for a couple of months, or possibly even only one month, or the upcoming month....if she even knew how to use the computer...

I work part time at an awards shop...I have not made any trophies in the last 2 months, but over the last 3 years I have taken 100's of trophy orders and made 1000's of trophies....

as a research enthusiast, which is what you seem to be, that is pretty freaking weak in my book...just sayin...


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> don't really care, but a receptionist looking at a computer and saying "we do about 3 a month", I would not call an accurate way to determine anything...
> 
> I called my vet last year, and the receptionist had no clue why anyone would want a spinal xray, and just a few months ago, a different receptionist was not sure if they did dewclaw removal, or health certificates...had to put me on hold..lol
> 
> ...


Well, if you've known a couple of his career receptionists or even him on a grumpy day, you'd take it with a grain of salt. Regardless, I know this is where the experience is. I've been there when he has done several in a day and for many years was involved enough to know who else was using him and how often and what result. When I get the puppies done I'm going to talk to him about sedation and results.

T


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

I could hear her in the background searching the computer for previous months with one of the other techs when she put the phone down. You can search by previous appointment type in most of the practice management software. 

When you know better, you do better. "This is the way ol' Doc did it 20 years ago and that's the way he's still doing them today" is not sufficient. In 20 years, I sure don't want to be practicing the exact same way I am right now, especially if I know better. Do you train dogs the exact same way you did 20 years ago? Probably not. You probably use the best current information out there. That's what I do too.

I want to do better and continue to help good breeders putting up the best quality stock possible, not the minimum just to get by. When we include include false negatives in the gene pool (which happens when you don't get an accurate picture from a dog who is insufficiently relaxed), we're working against our goals, just as much as when mediocre at best dogs are bred again and again just because they have a title. Sorry gang, I can't apologize for having high standards.


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