# Training Mals and GSD the same...or differently?



## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

This quote from Mike S. is from Gillians other thread, but thought maybe it deserved it's own.



Mike Scheiber said:


> I agree with allot of what you are saying for the most part but to get the most from a good German Shepherd they shouldnt be trained like a good Mali they are very different dogs.


In reference to both ob and protection, what are some specific examples of how people would train a mal and a GSD differently? 

Thanks...


----------



## andreas broqvist (Jun 2, 2009)

A GSD are more forgiving, More thinking.

Mali is easyer if you do it right, Way more dificult if you do it wrong.
As fast as it can go forward it can go as fast to hel.


----------



## Shane Woodlief (Sep 9, 2009)

Now this is my own experience as I have owned multiples of both breeds. 

They are very different and need to be trained differently as well. IMO a GSD seems to be a little more resilient and for the most part deal with harder corrections (even unfair ones that we all do from time to time) better. You correct a mal too harshly and they will either shut down or eat your arm off .

Mals seem to mature faster and can progress in the beginning faster. Unfortunately some Mal handlers put too much pressure to soon on the dogs. Just because they can do something physically doesn't mean that they are ready mentally or emotionally for the pressure.

There are several differences that I see but those are the ones that jump out at me right now. But I am no expert


----------



## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

I am familiar with the generalizations about "thinking" and "reactiveness" and so on.

I was more wondering about specific examples. As an example, would you teach your mal to "out" differently than your GSD? How about "heeling"? Different methods or tweeks for different dogs?

Feel free to offer specific differences of training something from protection as well.

Cheers.


----------



## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

My opinion: I don't care if the breed is the same. Each dog is different. General type training is a start but you will have to change some things even to the point of how you look at your dog, or the decoy looks at your dog. Some will take that look differently. Dogs understand body language better than the spoken language so the body may say different things to each or at least to some dogs.

I too agree with what Shane said.


----------



## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Each individual dog is different like Jerry just said. I owned GSD's, Rotts and now Dutchies. My male Dutchie I train like a typical GSD. He is a thinker and will forgive a mistake corrections. My female Dutchie is the total opposite. She is more sensitive, doesn't look before she leaps and will shut down or take my arm off, depending on her mood, if I am too tough on her.:-D


----------



## Laura Bollschweiler (Apr 25, 2008)

Jennifer Coulter said:


> I am familiar with the generalizations about "thinking" and "reactiveness" and so on.
> 
> I was more wondering about specific examples. As an example, would you teach your mal to "out" differently than your GSD? How about "heeling"? Different methods or tweeks for different dogs?
> 
> ...


Here's one specific example. I trained a couple of tervs and then the GSD. With the tervs, I learned not to always do a finish after a recall because they anticipated the next command. So I always broke up the recall or retrieve away from the finish. It worked. 

So I got the GSD and did the same thing, always trained pieces and parts and never really put them together until the day of the trial. My first trial with him, I said fuss after the recall and he had no idea what I meant. I had to use two commands each finish til the last one when I figured out to use body help. I learned he's not a thinker that way, and I think he's only anticipated a command maybe twice in three years. So I pattern train more with him and have to be aware to practice the chain of behaviors before trial.

But he is a thinking dog, don't get me wrong, he just doesn't think that way.

The other two GSD's I had, I trained only to sit and down. One was a showdog female and one was a crackhead working line. I didn't get enough experience with them to learn how they might be different. 
This is just one example I can think of off the top of my head quickly. And of course, what the others said about each dog being different applies.

Laura


----------



## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Jennifer Coulter said:


> I am familiar with the generalizations about "thinking" and "reactiveness" and so on.
> 
> I was more wondering about specific examples. As an example, would you teach your mal to "out" differently than your GSD? How about "heeling"? Different methods or tweeks for different dogs?
> 
> ...


I thought you were going to an Ellis seminar ??


----------



## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Jennifer Coulter said:


> I am familiar with the generalizations about "thinking" and "reactiveness" and so on.
> 
> I was more wondering about specific examples. As an example, would you teach your mal to "out" differently than your GSD? How about "heeling"? Different methods or tweeks for different dogs?
> 
> ...


I don't have the words or to ability to go into this sort of discussion that's why I'm a crappy teacher I'm much better at showing than explaining.
You mentioned healing GSD's cant move like a Mali nor dose there neck structure allow them to look up into the face as easily as Mals this would be a just one physical example.
On the mental side Malis are much more reactive, because of this they require more environmental exposures.
I'm not a helper and I've never handled a Mali so I'm not the best one to explain I just know they are quite different from each other most common methods will work on each how you apply them is different.
Shane and Laura have some very good examples.


----------



## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

The other thing to consider is from the Malis I have seen is that IPO bred Malis have a far different character than the NVBK, FR and deff different to the KNPV dogs. I have found the typical IPO bred Mali to be more sensitive, higher strung and more nervy than I have seen from the KNPV dogs. I have found them less forgiving to both corrections and training mistakes than the KNPV ones. 
So from an IPO dog point of view its pretty much what others have kinda said re: GSD vs Mali. I guess I need to put in the normal disclaimer - "Of course your mileage may vary" 

While the op didnt ask about Dutchies, I consider them to be pretty close to Malis (KNPV Malis that is).
Now the differences I have seen from the KNPV Dutchie v's GSD is alot different.


----------



## jack van strien (Apr 9, 2009)

Makes me wonder how you would train a shepmali cross?


----------



## andreas broqvist (Jun 2, 2009)

Difrent days. DAy one like a Malid day to like a GSD  Then you will have a alround traind dog


----------



## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

It all depends on the TYPE of dog, not on the breed.

Malinois are my breed but this doesn't mean I like all types. 
I often see descriptions here of the mali being hectic, stressy, environmental weak dogs and then I don't believe my eyes.
The malinois I know and like are alpha types. At ease in no matter which environment, strong, agile and able to take any kind of stress. For me THIS is a malinois and the descriptions I read are results of stupid breeding with weak dogs.
Almost every malinois has good drive and grips, but it takes a lot more than that to get a good dog.

GSD aren't my type of dog, but this sure doesn't mean I never saw GSD I really liked. I like the energy and the agility of the mal, but I've seen real strong character GSD that I liked very much too.

Problem for me is the agility and the fact they lack the "go for it even if the world comes to an end" "act now, think later" mind of the mal.

But I do appreciate a good dog no matter what breed he is.


----------



## Mike Lauer (Jul 26, 2009)

obviously stereotypes are generalities and specific dogs may react like their breed or not
I have a gsd and a mal and they are 100 % opposite of each other
the gsd has a huge threshold the mal has none

my personal experience with these two dogs is they can not be trained anything like one another
corrections bring my gsd up they bring my mal down
that being said trhe mal comes back instantly the gsd is harder to bring up

its like night and day
I am learning a lot about different training styles because they need different

could you train one like the other....
you can not train my mal like i trained my gsd at all,t he mal just shuts down
you could train my gsd like a mal, but i know gsd's, especially hard males that it wouldnt work at all

and that is why millions of people train dogs and only a few make nationals


----------



## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

Sorry for my English, but what is meant exactly by "huge threshold"?


----------



## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

Threshold example:

Bringing dogs out for protection.

Dog 1: The helper has to crack the whip while running at the dog yelling to get a response. = High threshold

Dog 2: The dog knows the minute he see's the bad guy with the sleeve and responds. = Low threshold


----------



## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Edward Egan said:


> Threshold example:
> 
> Bringing dogs out for protection.
> 
> ...



whip = german shepherd stick

mals generally dont need a whip because you get too deep into their heads.


I haven't worked enough dogs to really know but I heard it from a Malinois expert and started to employ it. It works from my limited perspective.


----------



## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Edward Egan said:


> Threshold example:
> 
> Bringing dogs out for protection.
> 
> ...


I see it differently. Things other than thresholds makes a dog activate on a man/decoy like drives, dominance and association. I would agree with a green dog the way you wrote it.
For me thresholds are how much it takes to make a dog change his desire or mood. 
Pain thresholds, avoidence thresholds etc are whats important to me. I want a dog with these thresholds high yet he loves to bite and fight above all else.


----------



## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Martine Loots said:


> .
> 
> Problem for me is the agility and the fact they lack the "go for it even if the world comes to an end" "act now, think later" mind of the mal.


 I agree totally. The other thing I see between Malis and GSD's is that Malis will generally take whats offered. Stick a puppy sleeve in, they take it. Put a suit on, they take it. Stick your bare arm in, they take it. Put a hidden sleeve on, they take. Far, far too many working GSD's I have seen need to be helped onto something new.


----------



## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

I think that's not always correct and back to , it depends on the dog not the breed.


----------



## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

So "high threshold" would mean a dog that gives you the finger and goes for it even when being hurt or put under severe pressure?


----------



## Mike Lauer (Jul 26, 2009)

Martine Loots said:


> So "high threshold" would mean a dog that gives you the finger and goes for it even when being hurt or put under severe pressure?


not exactly
I described threshold once while Ii was walking my gsd and mali
I dropped the leash on my gsd's back, no reaction what so ever
I slapped her back with the leash, no reaction what so ever
I smacked her harder across the back with the end of the leash, nothing, just kept walking

I dropped the leash on my Mali's back he jumped and looked at me like WTF MAN!...LOL

threshold is good and bad
easy to get in drive, easy to correct
bad way easy to correct to hard

I tell people from my experience it is not what dog is better, it is what dog fits your training style
That is why people look long and hard for the "right": dog
its not that that dog is better it is that dog will be the easiest to train the way that handler trains

I am 6'4" 280 pounds and spent the last 20 years powerlifting, i am big strong, loud and kind of an ass
my mali is way to low threshold for me, but i try learn a hell of a lot from him, like friggin settle down you big dumb asshole...LOL


----------



## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

Online translator gives "drempel" as the dutch translation for "threshold".
"drempel" is some kind of "limit", so would it mean then that from a dog with low thresholds you get a very quick reaction whereas the one with a high threshold will need a bigger trigger to react?


----------



## Frank Mueller (Sep 16, 2010)

Martine Loots said:


> Online translator gives "drempel" as the dutch translation for "threshold".
> "drempel" is some kind of "limit", so would it mean then that from a dog with low thresholds you get a very quick reaction whereas the one with a high threshold will need a bigger trigger to react?


That's correct Martine. Think of it like this:

If pain were measured on a scale of one to ten, with a rating of one being a feather dropping on your skin and a rating of ten being a bullet piercing the skin and hitting your organs, a "high threshold of pain" would mean that it would take MORE pain for you to react than another person who has a "lower threshold of pain". 

Put into dog terms, a GSD with high threshold for corrections would likely be more forgiving when given an unfair correction or that same dog may need a more stern/severe correction to achieve the same effect as a dog that has a low threshold for corrections.

What people in this thread are saying is that their perception is that Mals have a lower threshold for corrections and take things more personally than the average GSD.

Frank


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Level of reactivity would be another way of saying level of threshold.


----------



## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

Thanks for the explanations. It's clear now 

My experience is that this depends more on the type of dog and the lines then on the breed.
My experience with mals is that they can handle a lot of correction and don't need much time to get over it.

I don't have a lot of experience with GSD. I was told that they have more difficulty to get over it if the punishment was too hard, but I don't know if that is true.
I guess it depends on the type of dog. A friend of ours used to come to our place because at his club (SCH) they had a lot of difficulty with his GSD. They didn't manage to make him "out" and if they did punish hard, the dog let go of the decoy and then attacked the first man on the field he laid his eye on.
We worked the dog with the waist collar and after a few trainings it was ok. But we did have to go deep to get the job done. Nevertheless the dog could take it. He was strong.


----------



## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

Christopher Jones said:


> The other thing to consider is from the Malis I have seen is that IPO bred Malis have a far different character than the NVBK, FR and deff different to the KNPV dogs. I have found the typical IPO bred Mali to be more sensitive, higher strung and more nervy than I have seen from the KNPV dogs. I have found them less forgiving to both corrections and training mistakes than the KNPV ones.
> So from an IPO dog point of view its pretty much what others have kinda said re: GSD vs Mali. I guess I need to put in the normal disclaimer - "Of course your mileage may vary"
> 
> While the op didnt ask about Dutchies, I consider them to be pretty close to Malis (KNPV Malis that is).
> Now the differences I have seen from the KNPV Dutchie v's GSD is alot different.




please explain


also, it would be interesting to discuss the different types of GSD's, czech/etc


----------



## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Mike Scheiber said:


> I don't have the words or to ability to go into this sort of discussion that's why I'm a crappy teacher I'm much better at showing than explaining.
> You mentioned healing GSD's cant move like a Mali nor dose there neck structure allow them to look up into the face as easily as Mals this would be a just one physical example.
> On the mental side Malis are much more reactive, because of this they require more environmental exposures.
> I'm not a helper and I've never handled a Mali so I'm not the best one to explain I just know they are quite different from each other most common methods will work on each how you apply them is different.
> Shane and Laura have some very good examples.


I should add I'm only speaking from a Schutzhund perspective


----------



## andreas broqvist (Jun 2, 2009)

Yes I agre with Christoper about the low tresholds and fast reactions.
If I have a mali, put on a jacket and presents it for the first time to the dog, Do a fast movment/hit in the air the dog will bite. No hesitation.
The GSD will think about it, might want to be show that it is Ok to bite me. He will bite me right of when I put some presure on him, Show him im a bad guy, But not just right of from movment.

Ofcaus its difent in difrent lines but overal.

And ofcaus the GSD is a better tracker


----------



## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

First off, we're IPO.

We have about 50-50 GSD and Malis in our GSD Club, plus a few Rottweilers.

I must admit I've never trained a Malinois but by watching the perfomances of Mali and GSD would say, it's not so easy to say the Malinois is this and the GSD is that.

We have Malinois that work extremely well, to FCi Swiss Team and GSDs that work extremely well to WUSV and, seldomly (which I regret) to FCI.

I think Christopher Jones said that the IPO Malinois are a different "breed" than Mondio, Knpv, etc. and this may be so. He also mentioned that it is not just down to High or Low Threshold but the character of each dog, which I fully agree with.

We have two GSDs that work similarly in protection - drive, etc., whereby the younger is a "nasty bit of work" at times. He outs, but unwillingly and he gets really narked if the decoy tries to put him in his place. 

Both GSDs at 9 months (the older) and 7 (the younger) came first to Schutzdienst and, from the word go knew what they had to do. However, these dogs have completely different characters which need to be considered in the evaluation.

With mine, the young dog arm was replaced by a normal one - he bit so hard. The younger one was also a natural.

We haven't got "special" dogs, a lot of the working line GSDs are like this.

The comparison is difficult, I find. In Germany, the Malinois has only been popular for about 20 years against much longer by the GSD.

I can't honestly see a great advantage in comparing them (in IPO). 

Methods? Methods (for me) remain the same but I adapt them from dog to dog and not from breed to breed.


----------



## Tammy St. Louis (Feb 17, 2010)

>>>Methods? Methods (for me) remain the same but I adapt them from dog to dog and not from breed to breed.<<<


AMEN<<<


----------



## Tracey Hughes (Jul 13, 2007)

Christopher Jones said:


> I agree totally. The other thing I see between Malis and GSD's is that Malis will generally take whats offered. Stick a puppy sleeve in, they take it. Put a suit on, they take it. Stick your bare arm in, they take it. Put a hidden sleeve on, they take. Far, far too many working GSD's I have seen need to be helped onto something new.




I disagree! I have seen many Malinois who wouldn’t bite a tug, let alone a suit or sleeve. Lots of crappy Mals around too. Low drive and lack of nerves is becoming more commonly seen in the breed since I have been around them (1994)


----------



## Jack Roberts (Sep 5, 2008)

I think most people would agree that it is on an individual dog basis and not just a breed.


----------



## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Tracey Hughes said:


> I disagree! I have seen many Malinois who wouldn’t bite a tug, let alone a suit or sleeve. Lots of crappy Mals around too. Low drive and lack of nerves is becoming more commonly seen in the breed since I have been around them (1994)


Of course you see some that wont. Shit, I could find you a St Bernard that will do bitework, doesnt mean you rate the breed. 
I am comparing the average Malinois I have seen against the average GSD, and the same thing I have seen is also a stereotype when I talk to others about it. No biggie.


----------



## Courtney Guthrie (Oct 30, 2007)

I must say that there is a lot of generalizing going on here. I believe that no matter the breed, it is a DOG thing based on the individual dog rather than the breed as many have said before this. 

I can tell you that my GSD requires no whip to get fired up. He is fired up right out of the box. As a decoy, if you push him hard, he WILL push back, he is known for being a little dirty at times in the blind when he feels that he should have gotten a bite already(He is better about it now.) 

I can also tell you that after I get his focus, he is AWESOME. I have some trouble gaining his focus but it's a handler issue not a dog issue.


----------



## andreas broqvist (Jun 2, 2009)

Ofcaus we are generalsin, its difrent breeds we are talking about. 
An this is what I se from the difrent breeds not one ore two dogs.


----------



## Mike Lauer (Jul 26, 2009)

maybe a 100 more people should say its an individual dog thing and give us an example, i dont think the 100 already listed are enough.
Yes, the question was about an entire breed, its obviously a generalization

there are traits that are stereotypical of one breed vs another
and that is why some people "start" their search for a specific type of dog within a specific breed
not that it cant be found elsewhere, just that it may be found within that breed easier

relax, no ones trying to start a race war here


----------



## Sue Miller (Jul 21, 2009)

GSDs
you need to respect them
you need to build a bond
if there's a way to train without confrontation, do it
careful how you play with them
don't start protection too early
pick your fights carefully
dominant gsds you don't want to aggressively mess with
gsds hold grudges
when you have a good one, there's probably not a better dog


----------



## Courtney Guthrie (Oct 30, 2007)

Sue Miller said:


> GSDs
> you need to respect them
> you need to build a bond
> if there's a way to train without confrontation, do it
> ...


This is VERY true IME. 

I understand that there are certain traits that each breed has. That is why I got a GSD cause I liked more of their traits than the Mals although I really like them both and will have a Mal one day. 

Maybe I should read the whole thread next tiem before responding. lol lol


----------



## Colin Chin (Sep 20, 2006)

Sue Miller said:


> GSDs
> you need to respect them
> you need to build a bond
> if there's a way to train without confrontation, do it
> ...


Hi Sue,
Would like you to elaborate more on the traits of GSDs above. Thanks.


----------



## Jack Roberts (Sep 5, 2008)

Sue Miller said:


> GSDs
> you need to respect them
> you need to build a bond
> if there's a way to train without confrontation, do it
> ...



I would say these are some of the same traits of a Malinois. It is a good list and nice distilling of the characteristics of a Shepherd. A lot of this list is good common sense for anyone working with any breed of dog.


----------

