# Bred a litter of GP hunting dogs :)



## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Here's a link to my playlist of them on you tube. I'm pretty pleased with how they turned out so far. I'm keeping 5, three are going to other homes and I have three left to find homes for, which sucks, wasn't expecting such a big litter, was thinking I might not have enough to fill the pre-orders and keep 5 myself. I filmed various things so I can keep a record of them and look back when I see how they turned out. Vids include environmental tests and general tests to see what they have in them plus some vids of them just buggering about 

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL8uivWNc8_IRiSXFXuh-OcDdXcE64PHcQ


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Fun pups. Nice responses to the tests.

I liked seeing the competitiveness when the three were playing tug together yet no aggression on one another. 

It was all about possession yet they all had good response to retrieving the articles in the individual tests.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Thanks Bob I really appreciate you took the time to watch them 
It has been really hard deciding who will stay and who will not, there is little difference between them in terms of drives but each one has its own character. All are good drivey dogs and all just like their father will settle down if there is nothing to do


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

what's the GP stand for?


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Sarah Platts said:


> what's the GP stand for?


General purpose


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Matt Vandart said:


> Thanks Bob I really appreciate you took the time to watch them
> It has been really hard deciding who will stay and who will not, there is little difference between them in terms of drives but each one has its own character. All are good drivey dogs and all just like their father will settle down if there is nothing to do


I always view a natural retrieve as a willingness to work with a human. 

It's not failed me to date.


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## Catherine Gervin (Mar 12, 2012)

i watched your "Vacuum Cleaner Fun" video and it made me hoot watching you have to nudge your Bull Terrier out of the way--great looking Bull Terrier and Staffy, both!!! also, thank goodness you got yourself some more dogs, because you were definitely running low on dogs in your home!
i'm so jealous of how many awesome and well behaved animals you have that i could almost throw up from envy.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Bob Scott said:


> I always view a natural retrieve as a willingness to work with a human.
> 
> It's not failed me to date.


I agree Bob, my old man taught me that one 

Cathrine my house is a mad house, lol.

Bumpy the Bull terrier is THE most bombproof dog on the planet, she could literally walk across no mans land in WW1 and not give two hoots, she would just be on the hunt for something to eat, she's ancient by the way. 
I basically left the puppies hang out with her rather than Tilly (the mother), who is very sharp and a bit high strung. I don't know if this had any effect on the pups but they have grown up very stable and environmentally sound, all the fireworks, thunder, gunshot etc in the vids ended up just being a test rather than desensitization. Having said that the father is pretty much like Bumpy, which is part of the reason I used him, so it's anybodies guess whether it is a result of nature or nurture.

Luna the Staff is my GF's she is a pretty cool dog unbelievably game she has taken on Sali a few times, once they were going at it and I had to pick Sali up to break the fight up (try getting hold of a small staffy when it's got the red mist on and you will see why) and the little bassid jumped up and was hanging off Sali's nose :O


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Here's a vid I made for one of the pups new owners. 
I like this pup alot, he has drive but is not all out mali/dobe crazy to where it's sometimes hard to get them to concentrate. He's a good mellow but driven pup 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6iSZJ8SwhYY


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Gotta love the way he's already attempting to hold the sit because he's figured that's where the reward comes from.

I suspect duration exercises will be a piece of cake for him. 

That's where that "mellow" side will be a great help.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

nice little puppy !
- he's already learned to follow the lure well
- the fact that he sits rather than jumps up when the lure is raised is an indicator of his drive level and that will make it easier on a new handler. 
- ime, dogs with higher drives tend to leave their feet which makes luring a little more 'tricky'


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Thanks Rick  
I am the new handler, lol.

I disagree I'm afraid. I find pups which tend to jump off their feet to be higher energy dogs which could have the same level of drive as this dog just less focus due to the energy level. Think well bred Malinois compared to well bred GSD and you'll get what I am saying.

Just my opinion on the matter I would actually like to hear other peoples as it is an interesting observation.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

hmmm just tossing this out, but could just be more focus on getting treats by jumping, and less focus on how to get them, because jumping doesnt get them..


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Jumping could be a high energy level and not necessarily a high drive. 

NORMALLY the two can go together but not always. 

My older GSD has always had very nice drive but he's always been a thinking dog and not with an off the wall energy level.

My younger GSD is off the wall crazy with energy and not so much a thinking dog.

His drive is nice but not at the level of the older dog. 

High energy doesn't always equal high drive. 

Its like some thinking dogs can instinctively cap their own drive and energy and use it when needed.

Look at it as the same as an off switch. Some have it naturally, some can develop it through training, some may never get it.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Joby Becker said:


> hmmm just tossing this out, but could just be more focus on getting treats by jumping, and less focus on how to get them, because jumping doesnt get them..


Good point Joby


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Bob Scott said:


> Jumping could be a high energy level and not necessarily a high drive.
> 
> NORMALLY the two can go together but not always.
> 
> ...


I agree with that Bob, that was part of the aim of this breeding. As much as I like my Mali's it took alot of work to calm them down enough to really start working well. Their high energy levels can still piss me off, lol. 
I much prefer a dog with drive but sense to go with it.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

agree with Joby...
was thinking you were luring the pup, not trying to see if it would jump or make it jump
"new owner" was the person you are giving the dog to 

hmmmm ...
energy vs drive discussion
that's getting a little abstract for me to grasp. 
they're both about the same to me.
except maybe they are looked at subjectively since most of us would rather see drive than energy //lol//

drive seems to be discussed as something we like and energy is somethin that has to be burned off ??

that's as far as i can go but would like to hear other's ideas on the diff between the two


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I believe an excess of energy can get to the point of being called hectic or frantic. I would add possibly a lack of focus to that.

This is where a clear headed dog with excellent drive can still function without becoming crazy with excessive energy.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

"I believe an excess of energy can get to the point of being called hectic or frantic. I would add possibly a lack of focus to that.

This is where a clear headed dog with excellent drive can still function without becoming crazy with excessive energy.”

…. that makes sense to me

when i switched the words :

I believe an excess of drive can get to the point of being called hectic or frantic. I would add possibly a lack of focus to that.

This is where a clear headed dog with excellent energy can still function without becoming crazy with excessive drive

…it still made sense to me …. 
i guess i just don’t get the difference

are some dogs all drive and no energy, or vice versa ?
or is drive some kind of focused energy ?
maybe i need to see more dogs, cause all dogs i feel that are high drive are hi energy, and the ones with low energy seem to be less driven to do anything much at all


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Yay! a whatthe****isdrive thread!

Right then, putting aside all the stuff like "prey drive" "defense drive" "pack drive" because they are instincts not drives IMO a dog which is driven is a dog that wants to do work in a co-operative context.

A pup that runs round in circles with no focus, ragging this, ragging that, playing with a ball for a few seconds then grabbing your trousers may well have drive, but has a higher energy level than a pup that chooses something to play with and sticks with it for a long time. 

In the working world:

The task is to find a ball you have thrown into a field of long grass, basically a blind retrieve. 

Dog one: high drive and high energy

Dog runs around the field like a water bug randomly hunting for the ball, often with it's eyes, till it stumbles upon the ball either by sight or by catching scent by luck. 
These dogs are the ones that often "leak drive" by shaking and squeeking/yipping during bitework if you put them in a down stay.

Dog two: High drive moderate energy. 

Dog sets off with definite purpose and methodically searches the field often using the nose more than the eyes till it finds the ball. 
This type of dog often is the one that will lay quietly in a down stay during bitework then when released perform with equal commitment to the above dog often surprising the novice onlooker with it's ability.

Both dogs have equal level of drive as exhibited by the ability to keep on going till their objective is fullfilled i.e they both find the ball.
Both dogs have their advantages and disadvantages in terms of handling.
Both dogs are able to do the work and be excellent workers. 

Energy/drive levels often become apparent during tracking training where the high energy dog can come unstuck by missing corners, missing articles etc and you have to teach the dog to slow down.

The place where high energy becomes an issue is when the dog is not working. High energy dogs are often a PIA and more likely to develop OCD issues, be barking asshats etc.

It's all down to handler preference. IMO high energy dogs are easier to make one look like an awesome trainer than the lower energy dog to the untrained eye.

I prefer dogs as Bob describes, except for when they are terriers.........


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I think Matt has better explanations of what I was trying to say................

..............although I'll always have a spot in my heart for the crazy little bassids. :lol:

I've had half a dozen different terrier breeds plus terrier mixes so I'll probably have another some day......

...................if I can sneak one in the house without my wife seeing me. :-$ :grin: :wink:


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

re: "putting aside all the stuff like "prey drive" "defense drive" "pack drive" because they are instincts not drives IMO a dog which is driven is a dog that wants to do work in a co-operative context."

which is why i said this .....
-- drive seems to be discussed as something we like and energy is somethin that has to be burned off ?? (somethin we don't like even to the dog likes it)

think i'll simply stick with energy being 'unfocused drive' and leave it at that
....diffs are not that important to me since i was just referring to a pup being lured with food 

but i DO think the traditional definitions of various drives have credibility when discussing working dogs with working jobs either in the real world or on competition fields


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Even traditional definitions can vary from venue to venue.

I recall seeing post here about questioning the term "civil", prey being the same as killing or biting, etc. 

Though I think forums like that have bought together a lot more understanding and agreement on terms. 

It's always interesting but the bottom line is what makes sense to the individuals for what we do. 

It's still dog training. :wink:


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

rick smith said:


> re: "putting aside all the stuff like "prey drive" "defense drive" "pack drive" because they are instincts not drives IMO a dog which is driven is a dog that wants to do work in a co-operative context."
> 
> which is why i said this .....
> -- drive seems to be discussed as something we like and energy is somethin that has to be burned off ?? (somethin we don't like even to the dog likes it)
> ...


I agree, communication is important and personal opinions should be left to one side in such cases. Same hym sheet an all that.

Bob- I love terriers an they must be FULL of energy and drive. When I am old and knackered all I will have is terriers. My OH is a crazy terrier woman


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Picture of two of my keepers  now 5 months old.


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

Interesting look to them. Nice.


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## Meg O'Donovan (Aug 20, 2012)

Are those two pups out of that young black lurcher you had? Or who are the parents? They look athletic.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Nice looking pups.

I can see the ears standing in time on the one on the right. 

The one on the left have a break in them that could turn into fly ears.

Not that either is important to what your looking for. :grin:


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Matt are you able to generalize about some of the stand out qualities of the parents/pups. Always interested in something new/different so I was just curious in learning more about them.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Nicole Stark said:


> Matt are you able to generalize about some of the stand out qualities of the parents/pups. Always interested in something new/different so I was just curious in learning more about them.


No worries.

Mother: 
Good: High "Drive" (lolz, lets not go there Rick  ) very game, high hunt instinct, very intelligent, excellent structure and genetic propensity for athleticism (you can not bother doing anything much with her for weeks and she keeps condition) EXTREMELY game, good fun dog to train, fears fcuk all, environmentally strong, feet are perfect for my terrain, good moderate bone.

Bad: very very sharp, bit high strung, antisocial twat.

Father: 
Good: Very very athletic, very fast, very good structure, nice laid back intelligent dog, has awesome genetics, bombproof temperament, high thresholds, extremely social, very powerfull and solid bite.

Bad: he's one of those dogs seems to be hard to train, however using shaping he learns very well (that will be the EBT in him) he's a bit light boned for what I wanted.

I put these two together for a number of reasons. 

Other people wanted pups from the combination.
I wanted pups from the combination.
I had a good feeling about the breeding.
I hoped for some pups to be a good mix of the two, I was correct (I'll go into that bit in more detail in a bit)
The breeding is the first stage in an end goal.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Father:



Mother:


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Bob Scott said:


> Gotta love the way he's already attempting to hold the sit because he's figured that's where the reward comes from.
> 
> I suspect duration exercises will be a piece of cake for him.
> 
> That's where that "mellow" side will be a great help.


Seems you are correct Bob 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IsvlzD4F7AM


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## shelle fenton (Sep 24, 2015)

lovely pup, very 'thinking' pup. I see pup offerring you duration when its sat in front of you, facing opposite direction to you, holds the sit, and bends head back to you, whilst maintaining the sit. Very exciting to watch this pup!


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

VERY nice!

The door opening and closing, folks walking in and out, one even with a cart and he gave no more then a quick glance. 

Curious as to why the harness as opposed to a collar?

Also that was a great breakdown on the parents of the pups.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

shelle fenton said:


> lovely pup, very 'thinking' pup. I see pup offerring you duration when its sat in front of you, facing opposite direction to you, holds the sit, and bends head back to you, whilst maintaining the sit. Very exciting to watch this pup!


Thanks Shelle


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Bob Scott said:


> VERY nice!
> 
> The door opening and closing, folks walking in and out, one even with a cart and he gave no more then a quick glance.
> 
> ...


Thanks Bob  

You may be aware or not, I'm not sure, that I try to train everything without a collar/lead. For Safety reasons I put the harness on him rather than collar because old habits die hard (you can see one point in the vid when Reggie looks away my hand automatically moves the lead) it's pretty hard to correct with a harness  I think I could probably get away with neither tbh. 

I have a feeling that pup might actually be a realistic IPO candidate. He also has a very full calm grip, i'll do some vids of that when he finishes teething.


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## Meg O'Donovan (Aug 20, 2012)

Nice, calm pup. I hope this is one of your keepers.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

He is currently. It may not stay that way though, he appears to have a mild case of loose foot. Nothing that stops him walking and such like but if it doesn't clear up I wouldn't want him to do more than be an active pet tbh.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Matt Vandart said:


> Thanks Bob
> 
> You may be aware or not, I'm not sure, that I try to train everything without a collar/lead. For Safety reasons I put the harness on him rather than collar because old habits die hard (you can see one point in the vid when Reggie looks away my hand automatically moves the lead) it's pretty hard to correct with a harness  I think I could probably get away with neither tbh.
> 
> I have a feeling that pup might actually be a realistic IPO candidate. He also has a very full calm grip, i'll do some vids of that when he finishes teething.



Understood on the harness.

I've always started pups with no leash for simple "with me" and basic manners and the marker training pretty much did away with leash work entirely. 

That benefits both the dogs AND me since it helps me from falling into yrs of correction work if I get in a hurry.

Markers have been HUGE for me.


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## Meg O'Donovan (Aug 20, 2012)

Matt Vandart said:


> He is currently. It may not stay that way though, he appears to have a mild case of loose foot. Nothing that stops him walking and such like but if it doesn't clear up I wouldn't want him to do more than be an active pet tbh.


Matt, what does "loose foot" mean? I've not heard that term. Is it genetic or?


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Toes like spread and not supportive, can be genetic but often is from diet and in this case I believe from to much flat smooth surfaces not enough rough surfaces. He's the only one that has been kept indoors.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

His feet came good with a slight change in diet and loads of walking on mud/sand/rocks etc 

Update vid:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3m91fjRforE


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Looks like a fun day for them.

The little black $#!+ disturber. Patterdale? :grin:


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

DUH! I just read the title.  :lol:


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