# Damn...heartache



## Sarah ten Bensel (Mar 16, 2008)

Pele had his hips done at 25 months and he is dysplastic in one hip maybe in both-mild. Not sure how it will score on OFA, but is such a bummer. Puppies are a crapshoot, I know. Well I plan to keep on training in schutzhund. He shows no signs or symptoms.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Sorry to hear that, Sarah. :-( Let me know if you need any ideas on keeping up his conditioning to keep him as asymptomatic as possible.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Sarah ten Bensel said:


> Pele had his hips done at 25 months and he is dysplastic in one hip maybe in both-mild. Not sure how it will score on OFA, but is such a bummer. Puppies are a crapshoot, I know. Well I plan to keep on training in schutzhund. He shows no signs or symptoms.


Sorry to hear. It really sucks. I'd start looking at oral joint supplements and Adequan. I wouldn't wait until he is symptomatic.

Terrasita


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

ah rats, Sarah, sorry to hear this. The good news is you found out at a young age, so you can be proactive now, before he shows any signs.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Sorry to hear at least mild he could go all his life with zero problems but it kills him for breeding.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Nancy Jocoy said:


> Sorry to hear at least mild he could go all his life with zero problems but it kills him for breeding.


 
What makes you think he can go all his life with zero problems or that there won't be disease progression? Some dogs can remain asymptomatic but I know of "milds" that were symptomatic depending on what you did with them and on what surfaces. 

Terrasita


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Sarah ten Bensel said:


> Pele had his hips done at 25 months and he is dysplastic in one hip maybe in both-mild. Not sure how it will score on OFA, but is such a bummer. Puppies are a crapshoot, I know. Well I plan to keep on training in schutzhund. He shows no signs or symptoms.


 
Ok so you seen the xrays.......let the dog tell you when enough is enough. Keep having fun and training.


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## Sarah ten Bensel (Mar 16, 2008)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> What makes you think he can go all his life with zero problems or that there won't be disease progression? Some dogs can remain asymptomatic but I know of "milds" that were symptomatic depending on what you did with them and on what surfaces.
> 
> Terrasita


 
I work with humans as a physical therapist. I have seen xrays and scans that were horrible, but clinically the patient has no symptoms of pain or discomfort. 

From OFA website:
"No one can predict when or even if a dysplastic dog will start showing clinical signs of lameness due to pain. There are multiple environmental factors such as caloric intake, level of exercise, and weather that can affect the severity of clinical signs and phenotypic expression (radiographic changes). There is no rhyme or reason to the severity of radiographic changes correlated with the clinical findings. There are a number of dysplastic dogs with severe arthritis that run, jump, and play as if nothing is wrong and some dogs with barely any arthritic radiographic changes that are severely lame."

Go figure. No one has all the answers. My neighbor's lab has severe HD, but you would never know it. She's 10 and runs, jumps and plays (still! at 10!). They found the HD incidently 2 years ago when they were doing an xray for another medical condition.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> What makes you think he can go all his life with zero problems or that there won't be disease progression? Some dogs can remain asymptomatic but I know of "milds" that were symptomatic depending on what you did with them and on what surfaces.
> 
> Terrasita


I guess because I have a *severe* with mushrooms for femoral heads and flanged hip sockets that is moving around very well and is 9 years old. She was diagnosed early 2006. ..and routine fish oil and glucosamine /MSM has worked wonders along with keeping her lean and excercising. I realize each dog is different and know that sick feeling when you get the news but many dysplastic dogs live long symptom free lives.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Go with your gut on this. I've had many dysplastic dogs ranging from moderate to severe and the only one of them who ever showed any indication of a problem was the dog who had a blown ACL. I found the key was supplementation that was appropriate for the dog (ranging from Glycloflex and Vitamin E to Adequan injections - each dog was and could be maintained differently) and keeping the dog active. I noticed in the transitional seasons I'd observe gait changes. As long as I kept them active the dogs did better than good. Every vet who looked at these dogs said the same thing, which was "unless I saw the x rays I wouldn't have believed it".


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

I've said it before, but I'll say it again that 50% of dogs with radiographic evidence of hip dysplasia do not have noticeable clinical signs that may be picked up on force plate gait analysis or radiographs. This is why working dogs must be radiographed before breeding, or you get what you pay for with the pups. Keeping good muscle mass and conditioning is a must with these guys and you have to keep them active. Supplements like fish oil, Dasuquin, and Adequan are great and I highly recommend them, but if there are moderate to severe signs, take the inflammation down with NSAIDs and manage the pain with other meds. I'm now trained in canine massage and that's another great non-invasive modality.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Nancy Jocoy said:


> I guess because I have a *severe* with mushrooms for femoral heads and flanged hip sockets that is moving around very well and is 9 years old. She was diagnosed early 2006. ..and routine fish oil and glucosamine /MSM has worked wonders along with keeping her lean and excercising. I realize each dog is different and know that sick feeling when you get the news but many dysplastic dogs live long symptom free lives.


My first herding dog was diagnosed at two and wasn't symptomatic until age 5. Didn't know about Adequan then. I don't think you can assume one way or the other. Performance dogs beat up on their bodies. Watch the dogs doing sleeve work on a helper and pay attention to the impact on the rear quarter. I think the ones that live out their lives aysmptomatic are the exception to the rule.

Terrasita


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Sarah ten Bensel said:


> I work with humans as a physical therapist. I have seen xrays and scans that were horrible, but clinically the patient has no symptoms of pain or discomfort.
> 
> From OFA website:
> "No one can predict when or even if a dysplastic dog will start showing clinical signs of lameness due to pain. There are multiple environmental factors such as caloric intake, level of exercise, and weather that can affect the severity of clinical signs and phenotypic expression (radiographic changes). There is no rhyme or reason to the severity of radiographic changes correlated with the clinical findings. There are a number of dysplastic dogs with severe arthritis that run, jump, and play as if nothing is wrong and some dogs with barely any arthritic radiographic changes that are severely lame."
> ...


You're way ahead of the game with an excellent attitude. Don't have to tell you to keep the weight down and keep him well muscled, if you have access, swim him. Enjoy him, train him, title him.


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## Jason Davis (Oct 12, 2009)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> My first herding dog was diagnosed at two and wasn't symptomatic until age 5. Didn't know about Adequan then. I don't think you can assume one way or the other. Performance dogs beat up on their bodies. Watch the dogs doing sleeve work on a helper and pay attention to the impact on the rear quarter. I think the ones that live out their lives aysmptomatic are the exception to the rule.
> 
> Terrasita



I don't think anybody was assuming anything. It was stated that the dog "could" live symptom free, which is very true and very common. Shutzhund also being a very low impact sport is also a plus in this situation. The dogs bodies don't take a beating like in other activities. 
Sorry to hear about your dog, but you know what to do. Enjoy him and have fun!


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Jason Davis said:


> I don't think anybody was assuming anything. It was stated that the dog "could" live symptom free, which is very true and very common. Shutzhund also being a very low impact sport is also a plus in this situation. The dogs bodies don't take a beating like in other activities.
> Sorry to hear about your dog, but you know what to do. Enjoy him and have fun!


Sorry, I don't consider Schutzhund low impact at all. Watch the rear quarter when the dog is being driven by the helper or even the A Frame for that matter in obedience. I'm not suggesting she quit working him at all. I didn't quit working mine and she put on more muscle with the herding. But really, she didn't have good genetic muscle which I think was part of her problem. I think with supplements, working them on grass, good weight and conditioning, I'd keep going until the dog told me he couldn't.

T


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## Sarah ten Bensel (Mar 16, 2008)

I realize there will be limitations...He is so wired to be a working dog through and through. I will do my best by him and we will go forward. I could return him to the breeder, but why? I am his forever home. We have such a blast together. 

I have a conditioning plan in place and supplements. Its just such disappointment...


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

My older GSD Thunder was x-rayed at two and showed Moderate HD, He'll be 8 in Jan and is just now starting to show some symptoms. Slow to get up when it's cold and damp outside. My dogs are outside 24/7. He also doesn't jump on top of his dog house so easily. I built him some steps.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Jason Davis said:


> Shutzhund also being a very low impact sport is also a plus in this situation. The dogs bodies don't take a beating like in other activities.


That's news to me...this is from a PSA trial (for the PSA PDC sleeve division) and not technically Schutzhund, but sleeve work is far from low impact!










Ringsport and PSA (if the dog's a leg dog) is going to be far better than the dog standing on their back legs in full extension on the forearm or bicep. If a dog has hip dysplasia or other orthopaedic issues, put them on the legs where they will be four on the floor for the most part and be more comfortable.


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## Nicole Lit (Jan 21, 2009)

Sorry to hear


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

One of my sheepdogs was diagnosed with very mild hip dysplasia at age 12 months. I had him done when the breeder rang me and told me his sister had just been diagnosed and she insisted on refunding his purcahse price which I didnt really expect. Both parents have great hips.

The orthovet told me that he couldnt guarantee that he may not show signs when he is 5. However he is lean and incredibly well muscled, I also have him on supplements and work him reguarly and the orthovet told me to keep working him as normal as he believes his chances are good. He is also my fastest and best agility dog and is pretty full on.

I also have a dog that has mild elbow dysplasia and had bilateral surgery to remove chips at 9 months. Her cartilage surfaces were in good condition with virtually no damage. She is now 4 and I have had no more problems with her, she is fit and active and I do limited jumping trials with her, but do not to contact work or weavers. She is on supplements and I get her elbows checked and she is doing great.


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## Jason Davis (Oct 12, 2009)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> That's news to me...this is from a PSA trial (for the PSA PDC sleeve division) and not technically Schutzhund, but sleeve work is far from low impact!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



There's far more to ring and schutzhund than just protection. FR has a 2.3 meter wall, 4.5 meter broad jump, and a 1.2 meter hurdle. Full routine of FRIII is around 45 min. There are 7 different protection exercises which in every case, the decoy is never presenting a bite, but rather trying to keep tue dog off. Many times during this process the dog barely gets a piece of the decoy, loses his bite and goes flying by end over end. I do helper work for schutzhund clients 2-3 times a week and I also dabble a little in FR too so I know the impact level on both sides. I don't know anything about PSA except is a presented bite, so I can't compare without having any experience. 
I didn't say Schutzhund was a "non" impact sport, I said it's a "low" impact sport. That's the exact reason you don't see many GSD competing in high levels of FR, because it's so physically demanding. I'm sure we will just have to agree to disagree.


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## Jason Davis (Oct 12, 2009)

I also forgot to mention that in the upper levels of FR, the dogs are on the upper body ALL the time. It's not just a one direction drive at that point either. The dog is being drug in every direction, pushed down to the ground and picked back up again. Just thought I'd throw that in there so you didn't think all FR was leg biting;-)


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

so herding is low impact? all the running and quick cutting? I wouldnt think that...


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Joby Becker said:


> so herding is low impact? all the running and quick cutting? I wouldnt think that...


Did someone say herding was low impact? 

However I would say it is a reletively good for dogs with dodgy hips. A really good sheepdog should make things look pretty easy and move sheep with a minimum of fuss. When I muster, mine does big long casts but once he has the sheep under control it is more about applying pressure in the right spots and keeping off the sheep most of the time. I dont like it when he gets too busy. I like quiet control which also calms the sheep and greatly reduces the need to race around and one doesnt really want the sheep rushing around either, it stresses them out. I find the running keeps him muscled and lean, and I wouldnt call it high impact at all. I know a few sheepdogs with dodgy hips that are still working well on in their lives. I suspect it is what keeps them fit and able despite the hips.

However yard work would present the need for a lot more jumping as it usually requires a lot of backing.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Jason Davis said:


> There's far more to ring and schutzhund than just protection. FR has a 2.3 meter wall, 4.5 meter broad jump, and a 1.2 meter hurdle. Full routine of FRIII is around 45 min. There are 7 different protection exercises which in every case, the decoy is never presenting a bite, but rather trying to keep tue dog off. Many times during this process the dog barely gets a piece of the decoy, loses his bite and goes flying by end over end. I do helper work for schutzhund clients 2-3 times a week and I also dabble a little in FR too so I know the impact level on both sides. I don't know anything about PSA except is a presented bite, so I can't compare without having any experience.
> I didn't say Schutzhund was a "non" impact sport, I said it's a "low" impact sport. That's the exact reason you don't see many GSD competing in high levels of FR, because it's so physically demanding. I'm sure we will just have to agree to disagree.


Yes, I know FR is not low impact either and I know there's other components to it. But I don't believe you can call Schutzhund "low impact." I've had my Mal shred his stop pads during herding, so I wouldn't call that low impact either, but I think it less high impact than protection sport. When the darn dog runs the darn sheep into your knees, that gets pretty high impact. :lol: I think conformation is about the only truly low impact "sport" there is (and I'm using the word sport very loosely). ;-)


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

well, regardless of whether you morph the thread into which ring sports are higher impact at what level, etc

what Sarah actually WROTE was :
"Well I plan to keep on training in schutzhund"
...which she can obviously keep low impact by using common sense in her training plan and paying attention to what her dog tells her, which she probably has already started thinking about and planning 

... so, problem solved and she can have fun doing it 
end of heartache ... enjoy the holidays with your dog Sarah !!


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> so herding is low impact? all the running and quick cutting? I wouldnt think that...


Actually, unless you are sending them on a pasture outrun, there is minimum running and I don't really think there is a whole of lot of quick cutting. Asta was a dog that had just about near perfect balanced movement. She literally floated in that trot of hers. On another list we were talking about genetic motor patterns in herding dogs. GSDs will trot if they have the correct structure. The trot is considered to have the least impact on the body with a dog with a correct back and balanced angles front to rear. For a dog that trotted and worked all day in historical Germany, this was pretty important for endurance. The show rings have mucked it up but if you see one work and see it on stock, you will see what I mean. Even more important the trot has less disturbing effect on the stock. A tail/head high running GSD is in prey mode. You see this sometimes when they are young. But really, all my dogs, regardless of breed are in a trot when in serious working mode. As Sara indicates, what we strive for in the experienced dog is "rate and pace." If you are out doing range work, then there might be a lot of running and quick cutting with cattle but not really around the farm or on sheep except on occasion. 

T


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Yes, I know FR is not low impact either and I know there's other components to it. But I don't believe you can call Schutzhund "low impact." I've had my Mal shred his stop pads during herding, so I wouldn't call that low impact either, but I think it less high impact than protection sport. When the darn dog runs the darn sheep into your knees, that gets pretty high impact. :lol: I think conformation is about the only truly low impact "sport" there is (and I'm using the word sport very loosely). ;-)


I think the pad shredding and running sheep into knees comes from inexperience in the early stages. A good sheepdog as T indicates is working generally at a calm pace, usually a trot and mine had better work well off the sheep, except in some circumstances, or they know all about it from me, maintaining contact and connection with the mob but not causing them to take flight. 

I think it would be good thing to do with a herding breed that has dodgy hips, I believe it strengthens the body in a good way particularly when also doing a higher inpact sport as I do with my sheepdog in the form of agility.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Shredding pads isn't so much impact as it is dry and/or rough ground conditions; young dogs running in prey and usually with frantic adrenalin; and even genetic thin pads. The first thing that goes with the seasoned dog is the running. Even the corgis will start relying less on speed. Except when really hot, my training sessions can be an hour. I've set stock for 10 hour days and have spent entire days conditioning stock for trials--no pad tears. The experienced dog works smart, relying less on motion and more on mental stock control. Next to swimming, the herding has kept mine in the best overall physical condition.



T


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Sara Waters said:


> I think the pad shredding and running sheep into knees comes from inexperience in the early stages.


Yes and yes. :laugh:


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Shredding pads isn't so much impact as it is dry and/or rough ground conditions; young dogs running in prey and usually with frantic adrenalin; and even genetic thin pads. The first thing that goes with the seasoned dog is the running. Next to swimming, the herding has kept mine in the best overall physical condition.
> 
> T


Yes to the genetic thin pads. I have horrible rough dry stony ground in summer but the only dog that has pad problems is my BC from imported UK lines along with his reletives. I sometimes have to use boots on his front feet if working him a lot, but that is becoming less as he settles and gains experience to work smarter. My Aussie bred dogs have no problems, their pads are as tough as old boots.

Getting back to conditioning the dysplastic dog I agree - swimming and herding are two of the the best way to keep these dogs conditioned for other sports. I am currently just about to construct a 5.5m (aprox 19ft) circular pool as it gets as hot as a furnace out here in summer, which is upon us now, and my dysplastic dogs and senior dog will be swimming their little hearts out. When I lived near the ocean a badly elbow dyplastic dog I had was in great shape.


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## Jackie Lockard (Oct 20, 2009)

Based on all the neck issues I deal with in my dog, that I am only aware of because they were aggravated during Schutzhund, there is no possible way I can count it as "low impact".

If I were to rank it, it would be lower than ring and higher than flyball. It does not mean because it isn't the craziest sport out there that it is low impact.


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## Jason Davis (Oct 12, 2009)

Sorry for stating that schutzhund is a low impact sport. It's just a personal opinion of mine. It wasn't meant to morph this thread into something else. I was simply telling Sarah to enjoy training her dog, despite the negative news she's received. Schutzhund is a low impact sport and is not hard on a dogs body. People are entitled to their own opinion though. Like I said before, we can agree to disagree.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

As both a canine sports medicine practitioner and someone who's done quite a few sports with with my own dogs including Schutzhund, PSA (similar but not identical mechanics to ring sport from what little I've seen in person), and herding...uh...yeah...I'm going to have to go ahead and sort of disagree with you there. 

Any sport where you've got a dog running 25-35 mph at a stationary or moving forward helper like in the courage test in Schutzhund (or PSA for that matter), you have a BIG chance of a heavy collision. Almost everybody knows someone who's had a dog jammed with a sleeve. Even when you catch a dog smooth as silk, long bites put a lot of strain on the spine during the swing. You also don't see too awful many 10 year old plus dogs, even Malinois, doing Schutzhund except maybe a little light training for a new helper, whereas you might see a 10 year old dog doing herding, either on the farm or in trials. Tracking's probably not so bad, but even the obedience, the heeling with attention for long periods likely strains the cervical spine over time.


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## Jason Davis (Oct 12, 2009)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> As both a canine sports medicine practitioner and someone who's done quite a few sports with with my own dogs including Schutzhund, PSA (similar but not identical mechanics to ring sport from what little I've seen in person), and herding...uh...yeah...I'm going to have to go ahead and sort of disagree with you there.
> 
> Any sport where you've got a dog running 25-35 mph at a stationary or moving forward helper like in the courage test in Schutzhund (or PSA for that matter), you have a BIG chance of a heavy collision. Almost everybody knows someone who's had a dog jammed with a sleeve. Even when you catch a dog smooth as silk, long bites put a lot of strain on the spine during the swing. You also don't see too awful many 10 year old plus dogs, even Malinois, doing Schutzhund except maybe a little light training for a new helper, whereas you might see a 10 year old dog doing herding, either on the farm or in trials. Tracking's probably not so bad, but even the obedience, the heeling with attention for long periods likely strains the cervical spine over time.




Like I said, agree to disagree. Luckily for Sarah, the risks you mentioned have nothing to do with the hips, which is what this whole discussion is about. As someone who is actually catching shutzhund dogs multiple times a week, not just watching it, I will continue to believe it's a low impact sport. Your medical status isn't going to change my mind;-) Schutzhund is a great sport and I hope she does well despite her dogs problems and he lives a long healthy life.


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## Sue Calkins (Nov 5, 2009)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Any sport where you've got a dog running 25-35 mph at a stationary or moving forward helper like in the courage test in Schutzhund (or PSA for that matter), you have a BIG chance of a heavy collision. Almost everybody knows someone who's had a dog jammed with a sleeve. Even when you catch a dog smooth as silk, long bites put a lot of strain on the spine during the swing. ... Tracking's probably not so bad, but even the obedience, the heeling with attention for long periods likely strains the cervical spine over time.


Additionally my dog's chiropractor has pointed out the whiplash effect in the escape (my large GSD male is a very hard hitting dog), and also insists that dogs should be walked on the handler's right as much as possible to counter one sidedness of heeling.
Sue


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Jason Davis said:


> Like I said, agree to disagree. Luckily for Sarah, the risks you mentioned have nothing to do with the hips, which is what this whole discussion is about. As someone who is actually catching shutzhund dogs multiple times a week, not just watching it, I will continue to believe it's a low impact sport. Your medical status isn't going to change my mind;-) Schutzhund is a great sport and I hope she does well despite her dogs problems and he lives a long healthy life.


What do you mean about the hips????

Before my GSD was X-Rayed, I asked the helper what he thought (he was the breeder). He said any dog that pushes off with this power has got to have good hips but the final confirmation is the X-Ray.

So what do you mean exactly? Dogs with poor hips can't push off like the above.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Jason Davis said:


> Like I said, agree to disagree. Luckily for Sarah, the risks you mentioned have nothing to do with the hips, which is what this whole discussion is about. As someone who is actually catching shutzhund dogs multiple times a week, not just watching it, I will continue to believe it's a low impact sport. Your medical status isn't going to change my mind;-) Schutzhund is a great sport and I hope she does well despite her dogs problems and he lives a long healthy life.


I don't call myself a helper or decoy, but I've caught a dog or three before, as should all handlers who are physically able to get an appreciation for the other side of the leash. I know the timing and mechanics are difficult, which is why I am always so appreciative of a good training decoy. 

When looking at the musculoskeletal system, the hind quarters certainly includes both the spine and the hips. Everything must work in symphony or you get other pain or injuries from over compensation. You cannot think of it as just the hips or just the stifles or just the spine. That's one reason I like medical massage because it's a gentle yet science based global approach that, unlike chiropractic, does not use high velocity adjustments you can't take back. 

I'm curious what other sports you think are "low impact?"


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## Sarah ten Bensel (Mar 16, 2008)

[QUOTE 
I'm curious what other sports you think are "low impact?"[/QUOTE]

Lap Dog.


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## Jill Lyden (May 25, 2011)

I'm wondering what you all think of Adequan as a preventative. I've seen amazing results with my horse on Adequan and I understand that it's the only product on the market that's been proven to actually go to the joint and repair it. I plan to put my Malinois on it when he starts real training - he's only 7 mos old now. If I had x-rays like the OP has and planned to continue to work the dog I'd surely be putting my dog on Adequan.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Glucosamine supplements, including Adequan, has not been show to prevent arthritis in otherwise healthy dogs. It is something to start once the signs start showing or there has been specific injuries or surgery (i.e.-cruciate repair). The important thing is to start it early enough before it becomes moderate to severe because by then, it may or may not help. I likewise would highly recommend either Adequan or Dasuquin (or both) for the original dog in question.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Jackie Lockard said:


> Based on all the neck issues I deal with in my dog, that I am only aware of because they were aggravated during Schutzhund, there is no possible way I can count it as "low impact".
> 
> If I were to rank it, it would be lower than ring and higher than flyball. It does not mean because it isn't the craziest sport out there that it is low impact.


Fly ball ....really? all that running and slamming into the pads?
I have heard from several people that think agility is lower impact than flyball..


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Jill Lyden said:


> I'm wondering what you all think of Adequan as a preventative. I've seen amazing results with my horse on Adequan and I understand that it's the only product on the market that's been proven to actually go to the joint and repair it. I plan to put my Malinois on it when he starts real training - he's only 7 mos old now. If I had x-rays like the OP has and planned to continue to work the dog I'd surely be putting my dog on Adequan.


We have something similar over here that we use in dogs - cartrophen. Adequan is only used in horses over here. I give cartrophen injections to my dog with elbow dysplasia and one that had cruciate surgery and always have a vial in the fridge.

When I was discussing this with my orthopedic vet after getting the mild hip dysplasia dagnosis on one of my working dogs, he told me that as far as he understood there was nothing concrete on whether it was a particularly useful on dogs where there was no problem. In my hip dysplatic dog the xrays showed no arthritis and I havent as yet started giving him cartrophen either. Just oral supplements and keeping him lean and well muscled.

I havent bothered with my working dogs that I know are sound in structure and young and healthy.

Be interesting to hear other opinions. Well while I was posting Maren answered that.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Joby Becker said:


> Fly ball ....really? all that running and slamming into the pads?
> I have heard from several people that think agility is lower impact than flyball..


I likewise would consider fly ball higher impact than agility. Lots of shoulder, elbow, carpus problems (and shredded stop and metacarpal/tarsal pads).


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> I likewise would consider fly ball higher impact than agility. Lots of shoulder, elbow, carpus problems (and shredded stop and metacarpal/tarsal pads).


No shit...lol...i AM hurting just thinking about it


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Joby Becker said:


> Fly ball ....really? all that running and slamming into the pads?
> I have heard from several people that think agility is lower impact than flyball..


 
I would think that. I would much rather my dogs do agility than flyball.


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## Jackie Lockard (Oct 20, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> Fly ball ....really? all that running and slamming into the pads?
> I have heard from several people that think agility is lower impact than flyball..


Maybe my point was that flyball isn't low impact either. Or maybe I think flyball is for pansies. Who knows, I'm just a chump whining about the injuries my dog has from Sch. :lol:


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## Sarah ten Bensel (Mar 16, 2008)

from Maren: "Glucosamine supplements, including Adequan, has not been show to prevent arthritis in otherwise healthy dogs. *It is something to start once the signs start showing or there has been specific injuries or surgery (i.e.-cruciate repair*). The important thing is to start it early enough before it becomes moderate to severe because by then, it may or may not help. I likewise would highly recommend either Adequan or Dasuquin (or both) for the original dog in question."

Are 'signs' like soreness, lameness, or radiographic evidence? I am starting him on cosequin tablets, but now I wonder if its a waste- and expensive pee.

My concern with Dasuquin or Adequan is the risk with the injection into such a deep joint like a hip capsule- or is it intramuscular? A vet needs to be pretty accurate. Has Dasuquin been shown to prevent joint destruction when the hips are not showing signs radiographically for arthrtis? 

As for the "debate" as to what is considered high/low impact---geez, Pele is high impact just running around the yard!!!!


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

The Adequan injections are IM. It's not troublesome to give them at home.


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Sarah ten Bensel said:


> As for the "debate" as to what is considered high/low impact---geez, Pele is high impact just running around the yard!!!!


Yes I know that one. Even though I know my BC has mild hip dysplasia I have no problems working him as normal in herding and agility or he is likely to injure himself doing a zoomie. 

I had a very high drive cattle dog once with elbow dysplasia, I tried to limit her exercise to a certain extent and she ended up tearing her bicep tendon in a backyard zoomie. After I dealt with that I just let her run her heart out at the beach, up and down sand dunes, swimming marathons in the ocean and whatever she needed to keep her sane.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Sarah ten Bensel said:


> Are 'signs' like soreness, lameness, or radiographic evidence? I am starting him on cosequin tablets, but now I wonder if its a waste- and expensive pee.


Yes, definitely! My previous comment was more for those interested in preventing arthritis, but as we know there is already pathology in your guy's hips, I would say go ahead and start. I am definitely not paid by Nutramax :mrgreen:, but the reason I prefer their products is that they are the only veterinary brand that has actually peer reviewed papers demonstrating their efficacy. I recommend people with a dog like yours start on Dasuquin first. I prefer their chewable tablets over their soft chews because the soft chews are honestly not that soft, they use BHA/BHT as a preservative, and they are slightly more expensive than the tablets.



> My concern with Dasuquin or Adequan is the risk with the injection into such a deep joint like a hip capsule- or is it intramuscular? A vet needs to be pretty accurate. Has Dasuquin been shown to prevent joint destruction when the hips are not showing signs radiographically for arthrtis?


Only Adequan is injectable (Dasuquin is oral only) and it is given either IM or subcutaneously, not in the joint. If I have a pretty competent owner, I don't mind scripting out a bottle and some syringes after I demonstrate how to give it. Though I have been to quite a few practices where the owners were not comfortable giving an SQ injection so they would come during the loading dose period and the maintenance period and have either a tech or the doctor give the quick injection. 

I do know how to give joint injections, though this is not really very common yet with general practitioners in small animal like it is with equine. The hip joint is the most difficult to access, but for whatever joint, the dog is sedated, the area is clipped and surgically prepped, and the drugs are injected in the joint with a special needle. It's usually drugs like hyaluronic acid (HA) or steroids that are given in the joint, not Adequan (though I suppose you could if you wanted, but SQ is much easier). Anytime you inject a joint whether it is a human, horse, or dog, there is always risk of joint infection, but this is why the dog is sedated and the area clipped and prepped first. I have had HA injections done in the hips and elbows of my Rottweiler and have always been very pleased with the results.


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## Sue Calkins (Nov 5, 2009)

Is there a recommended source to buy the Dasuquin?


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Good question...it is only supposed to be sold through veterinarians, so ask your vet to order some for you, but there is diverted product found online. I price mine about the same as can be found online because I would rather people buy the product from me, even if means a loss in profit.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

A few years back my old dog's orthopedic surgeon treated him with both Legend (IV) and Adequan series of injections, then followed up with one each injection per month. Worked very well for my old dog, don't know if young dogs are treated with the same meds.


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## Jill Lyden (May 25, 2011)

As I understand it Legend can also be injected into the joints. The description I've heard is that Legend Intra articular is for acute injuries, speeds/helps heeling and Adequan is for long term/chronic/and possibly preventive (though there is no data to support it's use as a preventative). I have my horse, for what it's worth, on steroid injections in her hocks as needed and Adequan IM monthly after the initial loading dose. She is showing signs of arthritis and has slight changes visible in her hocks on x-cray. I am not a vet though so, for sure, check with your vet. Both Legend and Adequan are perscription only.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

susan tuck said:


> don't know if young dogs are treated with the same meds.


I couldn't say for sure but the Adequan injections were given to my dog when she was about 2. I had to stop them because she seemed to loose a lot of hair while on it (really excessive shedding). For years I maintained her on Glycoflex and Vitamin E, with SOD/MSM, raw feeding, and C.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Jill Lyden said:


> As I understand it Legend can also be injected into the joints. The description I've heard is that Legend Intra articular is for acute injuries, speeds/helps heeling and Adequan is for long term/chronic/and possibly preventive (though there is no data to support it's use as a preventative). I have my horse, for what it's worth, on steroid injections in her hocks as needed and Adequan IM monthly after the initial loading dose. She is showing signs of arthritis and has slight changes visible in her hocks on x-cray. I am not a vet though so, for sure, check with your vet. Both Legend and Adequan are perscription only.


The orthopedic surgeon actually had my dog and some others in an experimental program and all were given both Adequan and Legend injections, for long term, chronic conditions. This was maybe 10 or so years ago, if I remember correctly. In addition to these injections there were vitamins and supplements but I don't remember all of them. This was my old Tiekerhook dog, did him a lot of good, gave him extra years. He had a hip replacement, but he also had horrible elbow and shoulder issues, these are what the injections were intended to help. The Legend was injected IV not in the joint, at least in my dogs case.


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## Sarah ten Bensel (Mar 16, 2008)

OFA report came back today....SEVERE HD in right hip. No HD in left. Elbows are normal...sheesh, that is good news there. ED has its own issues for active dogs.
I got the Dasuquin from Amazon.com


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Sarah ten Bensel said:


> OFA report came back today....SEVERE HD in right hip. No HD in left. Elbows are normal...sheesh, that is good news there. ED has its own issues for active dogs.
> I got the Dasuquin from Amazon.com


Do you think surgery will be a consideration if the hip is really bad?

I sometimes think it is a good idea to xray before the pups have finished growing where there is still a chance to do that hip surgery FHO I think that is suitable for younger dogs if they are a candidate. Maybe Maren could comment.

Yes elbow dysplasia is the most difficult one to come to terms with, caused me a lot of heartache that is for sure.


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## Nicole Lit (Jan 21, 2009)

Sorry to hear of the severe HD. Good to hear the elbows are clear. My gal has one degenerative elbow - really limits us in terms of the amount of training we do (and keeping the high impact activities very limited) but she has done very well with the Adequan injections and various other supplements, so I'm hoping you can manage it well too.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Sarah ten Bensel said:


> I got the Dasuquin from Amazon.com


One thing I caution about getting Dasuquin and other products from Nutramax on Amazon and other online stores is that they are supposed to be only available through a veterinarian, according to the company. So when you find on Amazon, it is diverted product. Meaning that some unscrupulous vet offices sell it to vendors on Amazon, often when it's nearly expired or already expired. You often see people complain of this in reviews on Amazon that people have this problem. I price it at right around the same price as Amazon, but I don't keep a bunch of old product around that's nearly expired. Always ask your vet if they'd be willing to price match. Online is not necessarily cheaper.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Sara Waters said:


> Do you think surgery will be a consideration if the hip is really bad?
> 
> I sometimes think it is a good idea to xray before the pups have finished growing where there is still a chance to do that hip surgery FHO I think that is suitable for younger dogs if they are a candidate. Maybe Maren could comment.
> 
> Yes elbow dysplasia is the most difficult one to come to terms with, caused me a lot of heartache that is for sure.


FHO is not really a young vs older dog surgery. It's more of a salvage procedure of removing the femoral head and neck (more properly called femoral head and neck excision). So the dog basically has nothing connecting their femur to the hip socket, but some dogs can do pretty well with this surgery. Did you maybe mean DPO or TPO? That's more done for younger dogs, but I believe it's a surgery done on older puppies.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Got my first bottle of Dasuquin from Maren this afternoon. 
Thanks Maren!!! :wink:


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

And Bob helped us out with tracking today! Thanks Bob, always a pleasure! :mrgreen:


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> That's more done for younger dogs, but I believe it's a surgery done on older puppies.


Okay, I just re-read this and I have a horrible cold (Bob can be my witness) and I realize this sentence made no sense. :lol: I think I meant something along the lines of a TPO or DPO is more for older puppies. FHOs can be performed about any age.


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## Sarah ten Bensel (Mar 16, 2008)

Well, I did buy from Amazon, and its not expired. Sure hope its not a knock-off. I talk to my vet. I need to stop worrying about the "what ifs, might bes, and if-onlys" and just go out and train my dog.....

Because HD is severe only on one-side, makes me wonder if he injured it as a youngster and it became severely dysplastic. Oh rats I just said no more "what-ifs, might bes, and if-onlys"


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> FHO is not really a young vs older dog surgery. It's more of a salvage procedure of removing the femoral head and neck (more properly called femoral head and neck excision). So the dog basically has nothing connecting their femur to the hip socket, but some dogs can do pretty well with this surgery. Did you maybe mean DPO or TPO? That's more done for younger dogs, but I believe it's a surgery done on older puppies.


Yes I meant the TPO triple pelvic osteotomy. Apparently it needs to be done while things are still growing. I discussed it with my orthovet when my 12 month old was diagnosed with mild hip dysplasia but he said the dysplasia was too mild, and the cup only needed to be changed by about 5 degrees.

A friend of mine after a run in with hip dysplasia in her performance dog had a penn hip done on her youngster and because they were not looking the best decided to proceed with a JPS -*Juvenile Pubic Symphysiodesis* at 4 months old.


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Sarah ten Bensel said:


> Because HD is severe only on one-side, makes me wonder if he injured it as a youngster and it became severely dysplastic. Oh rats I just said no more "what-ifs, might bes, and if-onlys"


That is not a place you want to go as it serves no purpose. However it is a place in our minds most of us go with a similar situation.

I discovered one of my dogs had elbow dyplasia just on the side. I also wondered if it was something that happened earlier on as she was a ballistic type of pup and I wondered if could I have done something to prevent it. Then one day I out of the blue I bumped into someone on a breed group that had her sister over the other side of the country and the sibling also had ED. Then I met another closely related dog also with ED. 

I have had some seriously full on pups in the past that I probably did everything wrong with regarding exercise and none of them ended up with dyplasia.


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