# Building prey drive



## Amber Phillips (Jan 9, 2011)

I have a 2yr JRT who I compete in Agility with. I'm looking for a way to build her drive.
She's not the typical JRT. She's not hyper active, she's not yappy, she doesn't hunt. The only thing that really spikes her prey drive is birds, but even that is faded. Hell, she doesn't even play tug! 

Suggestions?


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## Ashley Campbell (Jun 21, 2009)

The search function is your friend. Using your title on it, I found pages of stuff, kind of like your other thread. We get some rehashes occasionally, but these are pretty basic and I'd try searching first before making a new thread that will probably, ultimately, go off topic.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

You need to check that dog for zippers. I think it's something else in a JRT coat.
have yo had her since she was a pup? did she have any prey/chase in her as a youngster? Will she play fetch?
Seriously, if the dog doesn't have it at 2yr old I don't know what you can do to bring it out. 
It's a VERY rare terrier that needs any sort of prey "developing".
Do you know the breeding in the dog?


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

I have a Border Collie like that. She was also my agility dog but I got tired of trying to motivate her. She did tug and play ball eventually but it was hard work and took a lot of energy on my part and experimenting with different things. I find sheep skin is the only thing she will really tug strongly. She loves her ball now but only after I spent time with her and the ball and me chasing the ball to spark her interest. Throwing it a little distance and playing with it myself. Not much fun really.

I have a friend who got her dog to tug using chicken wings. Or if the dog is food motivated some people stuff a tug with food. When I fed my BC I would race her to her food and she soon got the idea if she wanted her food she had to beat me there. 

I did build quite a bit of drive in her which was great at training but I found it difficult to replicate this drive under a trialing situation when you are waiting in the line up.

But I honestly dont do much with this BC now as I have a couple of high drive youngsters that I invest my time into. They come with built in high drive and motivation which is much less frustrating.


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## Amber Phillips (Jan 9, 2011)

She is pure JRT. Her parents and siblings are your typical Jack. Sandy.. Well Sandy's special. Lol. She plays tug with my other dog and my roommate just fine. She just won't play tug with me.. And even then, she has to be in the mood for it. She was very timid as a puppy so I spent a lot of my time socializing her and building up her confidence. 

She's very food motivated but you can't have food in the ring. She LOVES agility. *shrugs* I've tried the usual routes to building drive (worked great on my other dog) but she just doesn't seem to care for toys.. Unless of course she can de-stuff it and crawl inside...


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## Amber Phillips (Jan 9, 2011)

Bob Scott said:


> ? Will she play fetch?


Her version of fetch is "Chase the ball growling then follow her nose to a different smell. Leaving the human to try and get her attention back"

I swear, if I didn't know better, I'd say she's part hound. But I know she's not.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Give a Fenzi Frenzy toy a try
http://www.thedogathlete.com/shop/frenzy/


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## Mike Valente (Sep 14, 2010)

I'm not claiming to be a training expert but based on your info and her actions I would try to use a long flirt pole with something resembling a bird on the end, try quick bursts of activity with the pole and when she complies as you want reward with a treat. I'd play with this combination and she should have attention on the pole when being used then directly on you once it stops expecting a reward. Just my 2 cents.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

I think its interesting she'll play with another dog and person but not you. I think the flirt pole is a good idea to take you the leader out of it and might free her up a bit. I'd limit the dog play and see if you can get her to see you as a source of the drive. My bouv wouldn't tug with me at first either. I made it a project. I did lots of running away from her to trigger the prey then offering the tug for a bite. You almost have to work it from a decoy angle. I studied the board threads on this alot. In the beginning, I made sure I wasn't putting any pressure on her [frontal position, staring at her, etc.] She had lot of no prey work and obedience for herding. Now she tugs and I'd swear she rather feel bones.

Terrasita


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Amber Phillips said:


> She's very food motivated but you can't have food in the ring. She LOVES agility. *shrugs* I've tried the usual routes to building drive (worked great on my other dog) but she just doesn't seem to care for toys.. Unless of course she can de-stuff it and crawl inside...


If she loves agility and is food motivated, I am not sure I understand the problem. 

I have one of these - a rescue dog and he is not toy motivated at all but he works beautifully for food and is fast and fantastic at agility. One of my best agility ACDS was also incedibly motivated by food and did extremely well at agility. The though of a yummy treat and she was flying.

You cant have food in the ring but we cant have toys either and if they love agility you shouldnt need either in the ring, they know they will get their reward after.


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

is there a rule about your pockets smelling like food.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Amber has already chosen to not answer questions posed to her..

good luck getting an answer.


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## Amber Phillips (Jan 9, 2011)

Joby Becker said:


> Amber has already chosen to not answer questions posed to her..
> 
> good luck getting an answer.


When did I ever say I wasn't going answer any questions.. I came on here looking for some help.. If I missed a question, my apologies. If not, then you're just being an ass.


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## Amber Phillips (Jan 9, 2011)

will fernandez said:


> is there a rule about your pockets smelling like food.


Nope however I'd rather not have the dogs eat my pockets... Lol


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

do they eat your pockets when you train and the food comes from a pocket?


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## Amber Phillips (Jan 9, 2011)

Sara Waters said:


> If she loves agility and is food motivated, I am not sure I understand the problem.
> 
> You cant have food in the ring but we cant have toys either and if they love agility you shouldnt need either in the ring, they know they will get their reward after.


In my club we graduate from food to toys to praise and pats . Sandy doesn't work for pats and praise. In fact she could care less about my praise. 

I'm only competing in beginner trials (not for points) and we're allowed to use toys to help motivate. Also I barrel race with Sandy and it would help me greatly if she works for a toy.

I'll give the flirt pole idea a try. It's actually an idea I had been tossing around but I've never actually used one before.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Amber Phillips said:


> When did I ever say I wasn't going answer any questions.. I came on here looking for some help.. If I missed a question, my apologies. If not, then you're just being an ass.


refer to inbreeding post...the unanswered questions are there..


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## Amber Phillips (Jan 9, 2011)

will fernandez said:


> do they eat your pockets when you train and the food comes from a pocket?


They attempt to eat my pockets while I train. Kinda annoying when I'm wearing jeans. Lol. Although the people watching got entertainment from it. I've also got a training bag but Sandy has figured out how to open it when I'm not paying attention.


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## Amber Phillips (Jan 9, 2011)

Joby Becker said:


> refer to inbreeding post...the unanswered questions are there..


See if you had just said that, I didn't realize there were unanswered questions. But if it's about Maze's breeding, I don't see the point of defending her against people I've never met. When the question was about inbreeding in general. Not just my dog.


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Amber Phillips said:


> In my club we graduate from food to toys to praise and pats . Sandy doesn't work for pats and praise. In fact she could care less about my praise.
> 
> I'm only competing in beginner trials (not for points) and we're allowed to use toys to help motivate. Also I barrel race with Sandy and it would help me greatly if she works for a toy.
> 
> I'll give the flirt pole idea a try. It's actually an idea I had been tossing around but I've never actually used one before.


Amber to be honest I find that strange. Some of our top dogs work only for food, their handlers find their prime motivator and go for it. I have a very fast and drivem Border coliie who loves his tug and will work for it, but food is what really rings his bells. Who am I to argue? There was a great article in Clean Run by Stuart Mah about getting the best out of using food reward. He said that a lot of agility people have tried to move more into toys but if you understand how to use food rewards thay can be great. Some work best for toys, nice if they work for both but I dont understand how you go from food to toys to pats and praise. Each dog is so different.

Some dogs find a pat mildly unpleasant especially if they are working. I very rarely ever pat my dogs - praise yes but pat no, a couple of them duck away from a pat.


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Amber Phillips said:


> In my club we graduate from food to toys to praise and pats . Sandy doesn't work for pats and praise. In fact she could care less about my praise.
> 
> I'm only competing in beginner trials (not for points) and we're allowed to use toys to help motivate. Also I barrel race with Sandy and it would help me greatly if she works for a toy.
> 
> I'll give the flirt pole idea a try. It's actually an idea I had been tossing around but I've never actually used one before.



ok im going to go out on a limb here and make a sugestion, you say she is food motivated and loves the agility but she couldnt care less if you are there or not which basicly means she dont care about you, has no respect for you and thinks you can kiss her ass...she doesnt play with you but does with youre roommate which again should tell you something important...she just doesnt care to do anything for you....you are not doing anything for her to think you are even remotely intresting or respectworthy...so how about if you start working on that before doing anything else...clearly you have no connection with youre dog what so ever where as youre roommate seems to have connection enough...instead of trying to force the issue to get her to do one thing first of start bringing her attention and intrest and respect to you. 

apparantly you are not treating her in a way that she finds intresting enough for her to deal with....fix this first. no one can tell you how to do that, its something you are going to have to discover on your own by looking at youre dog and seing whats missing or what you might be doing to give her this viewpoint. Maybe you should stop asking her to do things for you and start telling her...maybe you are not clear with her about what you want or change youre mind on her to often for her to even take notice of anything you say.

Now on another note...stop getting so bloody defensive on anything mentioned on this forum! you ask questions here which to be honoust dont always make a hell of a lot of sence with large gaps of info missing...you should expect people to question you on this and not get defensive simply because they have things that you dont want, or dont know how to answer. make youre posts a bit more informative and you wont have that problem at all.. this isnt a pet forum and people will call you on anything you say so be smart...if you are going to post make sure to include all the info you can think of....and you might not always like what they have to say but thats the risk you take when you ask questions...you wont always like the answers. 

people will call you on youre statements so you had best be prepared to deal with it.


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

I have found that once you find what your dog values highly, if you use it together with good timing and praise that the dog should start to work with you. In the early stages you need to reinforce what you want heavily and dont reinforce what you dont want, but try and set your dog up for success. You need to break things down into components and make sure the dog really understands what is required. The use of jackpots can also really help to entrench exactly what you are looking for.

As Alice says you need to become interesting to your dog. You need to be consistent. If you are confusing your dog, doing to much or fiddling around with different reward systems, the dog will probably demotivate.

You need to have a reward system in place before you strat training.

In truth as an agility pup most trainers try and build a number of different rewards of different values right from the beginning. Transition between food and toys should be seamless. I find food is much better in some more precise parts of training, while toys are usefull in other parts especially on sends. But we manage fine without toy drive too, just have to learn how to use them.

I find once my dogs really start to understand and work with me, and become very keen to try and understand what I want. I cant be bothered fiddling around trying to change food drive to toy drive. I work with what my dog responds best too. Praise I use liberally at all stages of training, it is a given.

It is all about working out what works best for your dog and building a relationship, not some prescribed reward value formula at classes.


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