# Size in PP's



## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

The mention of Great Dane's in another thread got me thinking. I worked with a number of GD's in a PP program I used to work for, years ago. I'm not going to say how many years  But very few handlers were able to actually hold these dogs, when we did demo's the Dobe, Boxer, Rott, Pit, etc were all able to be handled just on a leash, while the GD's for the most part had to be back tied to a tree, or have someone on a back line.

So how big is to big for a PP dog? Personally, I'm of the opinion that if you can't physically control the dog, then the dog is to big for you to have as a PP dog. You can train as much as you want, but they are still animals with their own thoughts and actions. If your PP dog decides to go after someone it shouldn't, shouldn't the owner be able to physically stop the dog? Are 180, 200, 220 lb PP dogs really needed, or even "proper"? Especially when the job of the average PP dog is on leash protection when the owner is out and about. It's not to be doing long sends down the street.


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## Amber Scott Dyer (Oct 30, 2006)

I've been around a few of the large mastiff type breeds in training, and even the ones that are really good at bitework are often pretty handler sensitive. My 55 lb. female dobermann is a lot harder for me to handle than my 80 lb. male. So I would say that, although size is a factor, a lot depends on the temperament of the dog - and of course, the relationship between the dog and the handler.


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## Woody Taylor (Mar 28, 2006)

I have seen mastiff breeds pull owners off of their feet during bitework, these sogs (Presas) were often backtied on a second line for decoy protection. I would not want a dog that would pull me off of my (braced) feet like that.


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## Mark Busby (Feb 15, 2007)

Yes, we often times have to dual handle a dog in protection when we are manipulating drives for the bite. So until some serious control comes in, it's a problem or should I say it could be a problem!

Personally I like a smaller dog, my male Rott would be 85-90lbs in working condition. A large dog is great for the visual display, but a smaller dog seams more practical.

8)


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## Woody Taylor (Mar 28, 2006)

I probably should have been more clear, understood that dual lines are done in protection work, I"m saying that it was done here because it was kind of a foregone conclusion that the owner would be tumbling in the ground after the dog took off...which struck me as interesting, to say the least.


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## Mark Busby (Feb 15, 2007)

I follow ya Woody.... 

8)


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## Mark Busby (Feb 15, 2007)

I remember when I was a kid, my Grandmother's best friend had a trained Dobe that she purchased from one of those big name PPD companies of that era. Every time we would visit she'd let me walk the dog... looking back on the situation I think that it was totally irresponsible to let a trained PPD go out in public with a sixth grader. I certainly would not have been to control that dog, matter in fact I'm not so sure that she would have had the physical strength to control the dog.

Which I guess is part of the point, where does the responsibility come in to matching the PPD with the physical abilities of the owner.

8)


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## Amber Scott Dyer (Oct 30, 2006)

LOL... look at these pictures. The dog probably outweighs the handler by fifty pounds.

P.S. I love how the breeder says the dog has been 'accepted' into the PSA training program... nothing against their training skills, but that club's yearly dues are $600 a year - I'd imagine they don't turn many people away. :wink: 

http://www.maxomagic.com/PSA.htm


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## Mark Horne (Oct 12, 2006)

I think around 50kg or around 110 pounds is the absolute maximum for any pp dog. There will occasionally be the exceptional dog that is heavier that can move/run but as a general rule it's more about power to weight/ratio that has the impact. In terms of PP dogs speed & agility, with some stamina will be an element, I think the best PP dogs are closer to the nervier side, the big confident Rotty (like one of mine) is so confident he slept through a paramedic team coming in the house. PP dogs need different traits to say Police Dogs, because a dog is a bit edgy doesn't mean it'a a weakness e.g. in countries like Brazil people keep large Mastiffs/Rotts that sleep soundly but are kept with terriers that bark at anything, the blend makes for effective protection .

Mark


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## Al Curbow (Mar 27, 2006)

Kadi, any pics of the great danes working? lol


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## Reinier Geel (Apr 4, 2006)

Well in my opinion, as long as you have a chock-chain on, (and it is fitted the right way around the neck), you will be pretty fineyes weight-to-weight ratio  dog to handler - is a big factor as well.

Then training in obedience  if the dog is taught the leave or los command  , and he actually does just that then you are in the ballpark

However, we have all seen that this is no fail safe sure measure, nature dictates traits, and triggers  and this is where the trouble starts for most handlers with big dogs  large  is not always desirable. 

Never the less very possible  if a man can control a Lion with a stick and a whip  and an Elephant with a stick, then it is possible  however is it advisable????? :?:


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

What was the question??? I like Great Danes..........is that what we are talking about????  

I think that most people that want a PP dog know shit, and the dog they have for the most part can be described the same way.

I have considered a Greast Dane. I am thinking of getting one from Russia. If I don't like it, I can always get some D.A. to buy it for ten times the price I paid, you know, new bloodlines or some such crap. :roll:


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Al Curbow said:


> Kadi, any pics of the great danes working? lol


I'll have to dig through my old photos and video. I know I have some vid of them somewhere, and maybe some photos. They were all black/white (Boston?) Danes. Some big guys, in the 150-180 lb range. My trainer used to hop on one of them and ride him around the field like a pony LOL. Deceptive in their speed because their stride was so long, they didn't look like they were moving that fast, but they sure covered the ground between hander and decoy quickly.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

The last Dane I worked was exactly that, the Boston. Kinda spooky to work a dog that big sometimes


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## Amber Scott Dyer (Oct 30, 2006)

The B/W Danes are either called Harlequin (when they have lots of black spots on a white background) or Mantle (which is the color scheme kinda similar to a Boston Terrier.)


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

I'm looking forward to the pics of working danes too. I wonder how it feels doing a hold & bark with a dog who's head is close to the level of your neck when it is sitting!


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## steve gossmeyer (Jan 9, 2007)

wow i cant believe i found this i was like 19 in this pic.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Whose dog?


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## steve gossmeyer (Jan 9, 2007)

it was a clients dog out of st. louis the dog was poisoned shortly after the training. neighbor was worried about their kids. she was a really nice dog very handler workable and very civil


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