# New stud dog at Logan Haus Kennels



## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

We have some very exciting news at our kennel!! We have recently added Carlos Vos KNPV PH 1 Met Lof (littermate to Wibo Van Leeuwen) to our breeding program. He will be a very good fit with our females here in our breeding program, and with Arko and Carlos together we are very excited about the dogs we can produce in the future from our kennel.
Carlos has EXTREME retrieve drives, super full pushing grips, and a lot of civil aggression in the work. He is also a super producer for serious police type dogs.
There will be more information on Carlos on our website in a few days along with our new KNPV PH 1 titled GSD breeding female (Nick Vom Heiligenbosch / Fado Karthago grandaughter)


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## Jason Fox (Apr 30, 2007)

Congratulations on the new additions Mike...Can't wait to meet Carlos in a few weeks!


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Jason Fox said:


> Congratulations on the new additions Mike...Can't wait to meet Carlos in a few weeks!


Thanks Jason, your Arko X Truusje daughter may be a great one to breed with Carlos!


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## Drew Peirce (Nov 16, 2006)

Care to elaborate on the GSD female?


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Drew Peirce said:


> Care to elaborate on the GSD female?


She is 4 years old, KNPV PH 1 titled. She is a grandaughter form Nick Heiligenbosch on the top side, and Fado Karthago on the bottom side. She will be bred to Max Tiekerhook and shipped over to me when she is ready to breed. (2-3 line breeding on Nick)
She is one of the VERY FEW female GSDs to have a KNPV title. She is a nice working dog, your type of dog actually Drew.....she has a low PH 1 score because she bit the decoy in the call off[-X , and she bit the decoy in the false attack](*,) , so she lost a ton of point in those 2 excercises. She is a very serious dog with screaming high prey drive.
I think the Max Tiekerhook breeding with her will produce very well.
I am trying to produce more dogs like your monster Enzo:twisted: , how is he doing by the way?? He has not killed you yet I see, so that is a good thing. I guess I wont be getting him back=D>


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

Good to hear you haven't kicked the GSD breed to the curb.


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## Drew Peirce (Nov 16, 2006)

He's threatened to kick my ass a few times but hasnt actually done it yet so thats good, honestly mike he's the best GSD I've ever seen in my lifetime, his sheer physical power is unmatched by anything I've ever touched regardless of breed or size, and his combination of natural dominance and aggression is so high it's hard to fathom, we will definately have to discuss that female in more detail after you get her.

I also will want to keep a close eye on that max litter from her, see if we get any 1%'ers out of that.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Michelle Kehoe said:


> Good to hear you haven't kicked the GSD breed to the curb.


Hey Michelle, I do appreciate a good GSD when I see one. I dont hate the breed, I only hate the fact that there are not many good ones left. Ok, so I do HATE the hair, but not the breed itself.
I actually have a few very good GSDs coming in from Holland from time to time, including the KNPV PH 1 Nick / Fado grandaughter bred to Max Tiekerhook, and a SUPER World Team level SchH 3 dog that will be in 2 weeks.


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## Stephanie O'Brien (Sep 11, 2007)

Mike, why the heck do you keep doing all these crappy breedings? 

Seriously though, Max to that Nick/Fado bitch.....(drooling)

oh uh.....malinois, malinois, I have malinois......ok, I'm ok now.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Yeah, OK, but I remember a time where it was:

German Shepherd, no other breed necessary.


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## Sam Bishop (May 8, 2008)

Oooohhhhh......KNVP dutchie/mal......ooooohhhhh[-o<


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Yeah, OK, but I remember a time where it was:
> 
> German Shepherd, no other breed necessary.


Careful Jeff, you are starting to show your age: you are talking about a time long, long ago!!


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Stephanie O'Brien said:


> Mike, why the heck do you keep doing all these crappy breedings?
> 
> Seriously though, Max to that Nick/Fado bitch.....(drooling)
> 
> oh uh.....malinois, malinois, I have malinois......ok, I'm ok now.


I know Stephanie, I have almost talked myself into keeping one of these hairballs for myself.......almost.
I just sold one of the nicest female GSD producers in modern times (Shaquira Vom Tiekerhook SchH 3, recently sold to US Customs for their breeding program) and I told myself that I was done breeding these swamp collies, then this super nice KNPV titled GSD female came along with a SUPER, SUPER pedigree and I could not resist.....especially since Koos owes me another breeding with Max, so I decided to do it one more time. Let the record show that this does not mean I am in any way converting back to the dark side, but this breeding is a favor to all the GSD folks who tried so hard to get a puppy out of Shaquira from me.


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Carlos is the real deal. I ended up getting semen from the dog after the recommendations from hardcore KNPV folks who saw both him and his offspring. He produces very strong puppies and I believe the old owner of Carlos has taken a Carlos son as his new dog. Gerrit van Vos, the owner has had some very high quality dogs in his time and he rates Carlos as the best. He mentioed an number of occasions that Carlos has a huge threshold for corrections, ie pain tollerance. This is a trait that I look for, not so I can be tough to my dog, but because these dog have great nerves and very rarely, if ever, go into aviodence. Ideal Police dogs, if they can handle them......
Anyways, heres my favourite photo of Carlos.


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## Tina Rempel (Feb 13, 2008)

mike suttle said:


> ..... Let the record show that this does not mean I am in any way converting back to the dark side, but this breeding is a favor to all the GSD folks who tried so hard to get a puppy out of Shaquira from me.


 
That's funny. My TD refers to GSD's as the Dark Side also. Must be a Mal and Dutchie thing. LOL I like the dark side. =D>


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

mike, even if we can't convert you back to the "right" side, i'm truly glad that you're bringing some QUALITY GSD over here. let's just hope the community will utilize them to best advantage. ha. ha. 

yes, the "ha. ha." was sarcasm-unless you sell these dogs/pups to ppl willing to work/breed them, they'll have very little influence on the breed here. but i can hope!!


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## todd pavlus (Apr 30, 2008)

I wish somebody would buy all these great gsd's from Mike and start a quality breeding program like Mike has done with the dutchies. Then maybe there would be some real nice pups available in this country.


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

well, if i had the $$.......


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Christopher Jones said:


> Carlos is the real deal. I ended up getting semen from the dog after the recommendations from hardcore KNPV folks who saw both him and his offspring. He produces very strong puppies and I believe the old owner of Carlos has taken a Carlos son as his new dog. Gerrit van Vos, the owner has had some very high quality dogs in his time and he rates Carlos as the best. He mentioed an number of occasions that Carlos has a huge threshold for corrections, ie pain tollerance. This is a trait that I look for, not so I can be tough to my dog, but because these dog have great nerves and very rarely, if ever, go into aviodence. Ideal Police dogs, if they can handle them......
> Anyways, heres my favourite photo of Carlos.


Hey Chris, I have also heard that Mr. Vos has said Carlos is the best dog he has ever owned. I am really looking forward to getting him here and using him in our own program. I consider myself blessed to have Arko and Carlos here in my kennel for our breeding program.


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

mike suttle said:


> Hey Chris, I have also heard that Mr. Vos has said Carlos is the best dog he has ever owned. I am really looking forward to getting him here and using him in our own program. I consider myself blessed to have Arko and Carlos here in my kennel for our breeding program.


For sure. The only problem I see is that you have taken two of the better stud dogs out of Holland and the KNPV gene pool now. I just hope those Americans appreciate them .....lol :mrgreen:


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Christopher Jones said:


> For sure. The only problem I see is that you have taken two of the better stud dogs out of Holland and the KNPV gene pool now. I just hope those Americans appreciate them .....lol :mrgreen:


Actually you would be surprised at how many Americans dont appreciate them. I am always listening to people here tell me that a dog like Arko is way too much dog to be working on the street. It really upsets me to see that we as a society in America have begun to seek out weaker dogs instead of stronger or better handlers for our K-9 units. It really sucks when I hear a K-9 handler tell me that Arko is too much of a liabilty to have on the street meanwhile that same handlers dog is hiding under his car after Ron or I test him.
I can give several examples of super nice police dog prospects that I sold to departments that were returned to me for being "too much dog". Those same dogs were later sold to private individuals and sport dog people and worked great for them. What is wrong with this picture?????????](*,) 
It almost seems like in order to keep from having dogs returned I must lower the overall intensity and power of the dog.


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

mike suttle said:


> Actually you would be surprised at how many Americans dont appreciate them. I am always listening to people here tell me that a dog like Arko is way too much dog to be working on the street. It really upsets me to see that we as a society in America have begun to seek out weaker dogs instead of stronger or better handlers for our K-9 units. It really sucks when I hear a K-9 handler tell me that Arko is too much of a liabilty to have on the street meanwhile that same handlers dog is hiding under his car after Ron or I test him.
> I can give several examples of super nice police dog prospects that I sold to departments that were returned to me for being "too much dog". Those same dogs were later sold to private individuals and sport dog people and worked great for them. What is wrong with this picture?????????](*,)
> It almost seems like in order to keep from having dogs returned I must lower the overall intensity and power of the dog.


That reminds me of a story Diane San Lorenzo told me. A Police Dept rang her telling that they wanted the most serious dog she could get for some sort of riot dog. So she sources a serious Dutchie and called them to come see their new dog. Well the cop comes down and spent the next hour staring at the Dutchie going off at him in the kennel, then turns around and says hes too serious for what they were looking for and promptly got back in his crusier and headed off.
About the only thing you have going for you is that once these K9 handlers get their asses handed to them after their dogs ran away, im guessin' their gonna want a dog like Arko. PCP and crack are a police dog brokers best friend \\/


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

mike suttle said:


> Hey Chris, I have also heard that Mr. Vos has said Carlos is the best dog he has ever owned.


How do you convince someone to sell a 4 yr old dog that is the best they ever had ? You must have very deep pockets.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> How do you convince someone to sell a 4 yr old dog that is the best they ever had ? You must have very deep pockets.


Hey Gerry, I do not have deep pockets for sure, but I put all of my heart and soul (and every penny to my name) into building my kennel into a working dog kennel worth considering in the USA.
When I bought Arko I could have bought a new vehicle instead, it was a big risk!! But he has produced some of the best American born dogs I have ever seen. Now I want to buy another SUPER prodcuing stud dog to use with my best Arko daughters and other nice females that we have here. I really want to be able to produce some of the best working dogs in the World. When I made that descision I knew that it would cost me every penny that I had, and then some. When people say that my puppy price of $1200 - $1500 each is too high I feel bad, but then I remember that I have spent over 1/2 million dollars in my breeding program and I think the quality of puppies we produce here and the time and effort we put into getting them ready for their future working homes is worth something.
I think that most of the people who have purchased puppies from us are happy with them even though they were not cheap.
Carlos was not an easy dog for me to afford, neither was Arko, or most of our other breeding dogs actually, but in the long run they are helping us achieve our goals in the working dog world, so for me it is worth it.


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## Drew Peirce (Nov 16, 2006)

You've pretty much cemented your position as the number one kennel in the US now mike, in terms of police and military dogs of the highest level, if you keep raising the bar, capitol investment will never be a problem.
My biggest fear is you'll get so deep in bed with govt agencies there'll be nothing left for your civilian clients but scraps.

eg: (like what happened with shaquira, IMO foundation dogs like that should never be sold)


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Christopher Jones said:


> That reminds me of a story Diane San Lorenzo told me. A Police Dept rang her telling that they wanted the most serious dog she could get for some sort of riot dog. So she sources a serious Dutchie and called them to come see their new dog. Well the cop comes down and spent the next hour staring at the Dutchie going off at him in the kennel, then turns around and says hes too serious for what they were looking for and promptly got back in his crusier and headed off.
> About the only thing you have going for you is that once these K9 handlers get their asses handed to them after their dogs ran away, im guessin' their gonna want a dog like Arko. PCP and crack are a police dog brokers best friend \\/


I know Diane (with her former husband, Rick Wolterbeek) had her Duchie breeding=program based on Atos, a son of my Robbie and half-brother of my Rocky. They used him on a lot of seminars and he used to bring them "strong, macho" decoys down.....:mrgreen: 

And yes, most of them thought he was to serious.....

The reason Mike speaks of earlier is for us the reason not selling to easy dogs to the US. Altough I honestly have to say that dogs like we breed are also more and more difficult to place in Europe also..... 

It sure is a modern society problem.... 

The excuses we hear are; They are not easy to train. Difficult to make high points with, not social enough ect.ect....:roll: 

They apreciate a tough, hard, full biting policedog...... (for somebody else...)#-o 

So the problem you're having, Mike, is also becoming a European problem....

That maybe is also the reaon dogs like Arko and Carlos are for sale nowadays. 10-15 years ago this would be impossible and were those dogs kept in Holland... 

regards,
Dick


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

mike suttle said:


> Hey Gerry, I do not have deep pockets for sure, but I put all of my heart and soul (and every penny to my name) into building my kennel into a working dog kennel worth considering in the USA.


I think you have accomplished that goal already, what's next :razz:


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> I think you have accomplished that goal already, what's next :razz:


Well thank you Gerry, we are always working hard to improve the quality of our dogs. I am very happy with what we have produced here to this point, but I still want to produce better quality working dogs. As an International level pistol shooter I learned long ago not to settle for your current level of performance, no matter how good you may think it is. There is always someone in a small corner of the World somewhere working hard to beat you.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: The reason Mike speaks of earlier is for us the reason not selling to easy dogs to the US. Altough I honestly have to say that dogs like we breed are also more and more difficult to place in Europe also..... 

It sure is a modern society problem.... 

The excuses we hear are; They are not easy to train. Difficult to make high points with, not social enough ect.ect.... 

They apreciate a tough, hard, full biting policedog...... (for somebody else...) 

So the problem you're having, Mike, is also becoming a European problem....

That maybe is also the reaon dogs like Arko and Carlos are for sale nowadays. 10-15 years ago this would be impossible and were those dogs kept in Holland... 

regards,
Dick

Now this is a real concern.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Mike.

What weekend would be good to come up and work some dogs.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Dave Colborn said:


> Mike.
> 
> What weekend would be good to come up and work some dogs.


Sometime after the HITS seminar will be fine. We are pretty busy until then, and I would guess you guys will be too. I will see you down there. How is your new dog doing by the way??


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

he is small, fast, and doing everything I want so far. taking it easy on him, letting him free up from the obedience. He is a ball of fire though. his mouth is way faster than my hands. piles of poop are very small, and he has proved to be an easy keeper so far. Doesn't bark or spin here, I have him next to my retired military dog and they get along well. No fence fighting, and I think they are at least a little social towards each other. He is going to the seminar in Belvoir with me, and I'll bring him to HITS. Still no pics.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Dave Colborn said:


> he is small, fast, and doing everything I want so far. taking it easy on him, letting him free up from the obedience. He is a ball of fire though. his mouth is way faster than my hands. piles of poop are very small, and he has proved to be an easy keeper so far. Doesn't bark or spin here, I have him next to my retired military dog and they get along well. No fence fighting, and I think they are at least a little social towards each other. He is going to the seminar in Belvoir with me, and I'll bring him to HITS. Still no pics.


Sounds good, see you at HITS. I am glad your new dog is doing well. He is sort of like a Malinois.....only smaller:razz: 
As soon as I get the rest of the money I will give you the other 2/3 of him.


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> I know Diane (with her former husband, Rick Wolterbeek) had her Duchie breeding=program based on Atos, a son of my Robbie and half-brother of my Rocky. They used him on a lot of seminars and he used to bring them "strong, macho" decoys down.....:mrgreen:
> 
> And yes, most of them thought he was to serious.....
> 
> ...


This is an interesting talking point.
Is it that people are getting softer, or is it that the dogs have just got so much tougher? Even looking at your own dogs, from Robbie 1, to Rocky, to Nika, to then Spike and Wibo, do you think they have increased in their hardness, continued the same or got lesser?


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

People are way way softer.


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Christopher Jones said:


> This is an interesting talking point.
> Is it that people are getting softer, or is it that the dogs have just got so much tougher? Even looking at your own dogs, from Robbie 1, to Rocky, to Nika, to then Spike and Wibo, do you think they have increased in their hardness, continued the same or got lesser?


Hi Chris,

The change over here in Holland is the making of money selling dogs abroad in combination of the change in society. People have difficulties in seeing a dog as a working dog and have more problems dealing with a tough strong caractered dog. (You can see what happens in raising kids nowadays. It looks like real rules and live by them is realy oldfashion)

Before these dogs where more common than now. These days we are one of the few breeding and working them. Some of the trainers, also training this type of dog, are quiting the KNPV because it is like your "Don Quichot, fighting windmills"...
This is for example one of the problems I wil not bring Wibo to a KNPV-exam. He is so strong caractered, judges can not deal with such a dog anymore.(because they see them not so much anymore). For example the check of the microchip, and the way they want to do that (several people standing around your dog and "helping"the judge to find the chip.....) If you want to do that yourself and quiettly, there is lack of understanding. Wibo is completely ready for the KNPV-program, but the circomstances made me decide not to make cert. with him. However he will make his exam for the statecert. working policedog may 28th. (other circomstances, more POLICEdog-like...)

The other problem, the dogdealers, make people train the more easy (mostly weaker) dogs. They are younger "ready" in the KNPV-program and making PH-I, easier to sell abroad. Easier in training, no handler agression, social.
So with less affords, they can make more money because they can sell more dogs.

Changes in the KNPV-program also makes is possible to make PH-I with weaker dogs. for example the test in the stickattack(wich was one of the hardest tests in toughness of the dog), the decoy may not run to fast into the dog anymore, so less impact, is devalutes the cert. a lot.

However, my/ our opinion of what a working policedog should be like, will not change!!!!
I for myself, won't want to train another kind of dog. It looks like we are getting more and more exclusive in the kind of dog we (want to ) breed.
We are not willing to devaluate are breedingprogram on behave of the euros/dollars.
If that would be the case we'll stop breeding instantly...

For that, we wish you luck, Mike in your breeding-program. We understand your vision/goal very well. We know the U.S. is a large country, but we also know what you will come across.

regards,
Dick


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> Hi Chris,
> 
> The change over here in Holland is the making of money selling dogs abroad in combination of the change in society. People have difficulties in seeing a dog as a working dog and have more problems dealing with a tough strong caractered dog. (You can see what happens in raising kids nowadays. It looks like real rules and live by them is realy oldfashion)
> 
> ...


Im glad to hear you will stand firm with your ideals. I think in the future when these softer dogs become more common more people will value your dogs for their characters.
There are already people such as myself who value them and want to breed and own these types of dogs just as you do.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

For that, we wish you luck, Mike in your breeding-program. We understand your vision/goal very well. We know the U.S. is a large country, but we also know what you will come across.

regards,
Dick[/quote]

Thanks Dick, I am trying hard to produce the old World type of Dutchies here, a dog very much like your Wibo, and My Arko and Carlos. What I try to do is educate the new handlers about this type of dog and teach them to handle dogs like what we produce, instead of us trying to make softer dogs for weak handlers, I try to make better handlers for these tougher dogs. Unless more people try to keep the old type of character in these dogs, it will be lost forever........just like in the GSD breed.
In the USA people think that all you need in a dog is screaming high prey drive and everything else will take care of itself. I know that you know better Dick, and so do I. These dogs are like Marine Corps grunts.......they are fast and furious about winning the fight, but dont care much about playing any games.
Surely you can find an "old school" KNPV club with judges that will appreciate Wibo's temperament. I know when Arko got his certificate he tried to kill everyone but his handler but they allowed it because he was also a working security dog.


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## Chad Byerly (Jun 24, 2008)

Hey Mike, here's some pics of the old guy from your seminar last year


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> The other problem, the dogdealers, make people train the more easy (mostly weaker) dogs. They are younger "ready" in the KNPV-program and making PH-I, easier to sell abroad. Easier in training, no handler agression, social.
> So with less affords, they can make more money because they can sell more dogs.


So, in general, the traits of "easier in training, no handler aggression, social" are usually coupled with traits that make the dog weak in patrol/bite work?

Just trying to understand. In my line of work, the dog must be social _and_ high drive with very solid nerves, but I understand that what I do is completely different from what you do and thus a different temperament is probably required.

And, question for Mike Suttle:
You sell dogs to USAR handlers and are one of the few brokers who seems to know what we're looking for. What do you think are the main differences between your idea of a USAR dog and your idea of a patrol dog? Can a litter from a dog like Arko or this new stud dog have pups suitable for USAR?


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Konnie Hein said:


> So, in general, the traits of "easier in training, no handler aggression, social" are usually coupled with traits that make the dog weak in patrol/bite work?
> 
> Just trying to understand. In my line of work, the dog must be social _and_ high drive with very solid nerves, but I understand that what I do is completely different from what you do and thus a different temperament is probably required.
> 
> ...


Also interested in these answers:smile:


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

I saw this video of Carlos on youtube, he makes a decent thud from just a few feet away.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1H2r06_L_8g&feature=channel_page


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

No wonder Suttle thinks the object guard is easy. LOL

Hey suttle, you show a MR or FR beginner this type of OG and you might was well add the stick to their eye socket as a bonus.

That shit will not cut it. There are all kinds of cues telling the dog what to do.

Hey boys and girl, can you tell me how many different "clues" have been trained into this exercise for this dog ??? LOL


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## Erica Boling (Jun 17, 2008)

Originally Posted by *Konnie Hein*  
_So, in general, the traits of "easier in training, no handler aggression, social" are usually coupled with traits that make the dog weak in patrol/bite work?

Just trying to understand. In my line of work, the dog must be social and high drive with very solid nerves, but I understand that what I do is completely different from what you do and thus a different temperament is probably required.

And, question for Mike Suttle:
You sell dogs to USAR handlers and are one of the few brokers who seems to know what we're looking for. What do you think are the main differences between your idea of a USAR dog and your idea of a patrol dog? Can a litter from a dog like Arko or this new stud dog have pups suitable for USAR?_




Jennifer Coulter said:


> Also interested in these answers:smile:


Me too....


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> No wonder Suttle thinks the object guard is easy. LOL
> 
> Hey suttle, you show a MR or FR beginner this type of OG and you might was well add the stick to their eye socket as a bonus.
> 
> ...


 
MR/FR is more difficult I think, we use the "clues" very well


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> No wonder Suttle thinks the object guard is easy. LOL
> 
> Hey suttle, you show a MR or FR beginner this type of OG and you might was well add the stick to their eye socket as a bonus.
> 
> ...


Well, the lean in is a gimme but what is so different with the clues in FR or Mondio ?? I've never watched either live but aside from targetting the ankles for the most part and dragging it out to the point of nausea it seems the same...get too close and the dog bites.


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> Well, the lean in is a gimme but what is so different with the clues in FR or Mondio ??


 MR/FR has less (if any, I don't know) clues, object is everytime different.
KNPV objectguard: 1 time passing, second time coming to the dog, trying to reach (clue to attack  ) 3 meter backworths, stands still (clue to return to the object  )


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

We try not to put clues in. LOL Sorry it drags out for you. If it makes you feel better, I feel cheated knowing that as a trainer, I would rather do this type of object guard, and not have to rack my brain all the time to try and get RID of the clues i might be unintentially teaching my dog. : )

That is a good time.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

I should have worded that differently, but for example that video of the GSD you posted seemed to go for a long time. It was really good but you could see the dog had the decoy beat in the first minute, is there a time limit that they have to go by for the guard, or is it different everytime ?

I should watch this stuff in person before I make any remarks


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I think the time limit for the exercise is ten minutes. The idea is to take points from the dog, stealing the basket is cool, but taking points from the dog is what they are trying to do, wither by stealing or getting the dog to stick to the decoy, or any amount of things that I have never seen, and then you lose your points. LOL

If you take a long time, some dogs will drop out of drive, some will go into overdrive. the idea is to screw the dog. Lots and lots of fun to train.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Then again, if you go fast the dog might go into overdrive and screw up. : )


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## kristin tresidder (Oct 23, 2008)

mike suttle said:


> What I try to do is educate the new handlers about this type of dog and teach them to handle dogs like what we produce, instead of us trying to make softer dogs for weak handlers, I try to make better handlers for these tougher dogs.


the other day a new K9 officer was showing me his new 'green' dog. this guy isn't even really a 'dog person,' let alone experienced with working dogs. he and his new partner go through a 14 week course, and then they hit the streets - supposedly a streamlined, working team. this dog didn't seem to be "alot of dog," but i made me wonder, 'what if he was alot of dog? what would this guy do then? how would he cope? would he want to? what happens in the interim until he figures it out?' so now, i wonder - what does that training look like - for people new to dogs, or new to that _type _of dog that need to 'get it' and move very quickly?



congratulations on your new edition BTW


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> No wonder Suttle thinks the object guard is easy. LOL
> 
> Hey suttle, you show a MR or FR beginner this type of OG and you might was well add the stick to their eye socket as a bonus.
> 
> ...


Dont hate me just because I train the object guard the KNPV way. Is it easier than MR or FR? ABSOLUTELY!! But Jeff, if you dont think it is an effective object guard then you are welcome to come up and try to take the object from Arko or Carlos. I dont ever pick fights for my dogs really, so I am actually only joking about that, but I can assure you that while it is easier to train, and there are many "cues" from the decoy in the routine, it is still an effective way of guarding. The idea is to prevent the object from being touched by the decoy, and that is accomplished in this type of guarding as well.
In this video they are training I do believe, I have seen many trials where the decoy did not stop after 3 steps back, but the dog still has to release and return to the object. But I will agree that your sport is much more difficult to train the object guard. 
Thus making you a superior human being and your sport much more demanding of a geneticaly superior animal, while all of us whimpy KNPV fans are a bunch of pansies with weak dogs who could never possibly work to your standards. 
But if you should ever decide to come and take Arko's briefcase...........\\/


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Konnie Hein said:


> So, in general, the traits of "easier in training, no handler aggression, social" are usually coupled with traits that make the dog weak in patrol/bite work?
> 
> Just trying to understand. In my line of work, the dog must be social _and_ high drive with very solid nerves, but I understand that what I do is completely different from what you do and thus a different temperament is probably required.
> 
> ...


I have placed several Arko offspring in detection only roles where they are reguired to be social: (US Customs and Border Patrol, DOD, TSA, and also USAR) We must be very careful how we screen these dogs for these types of jobs, but it can and has been done. As a general rule Arko puppies are not the first choice for these types of jobs, not because they lack hunt or retireve drives, but because many of them are not overly social. Even this is not a problem in the hands of a handler with experience with these types of dogs, but the problem is that in those jobs most handlers are used to handling very social happy high drive dogs that are not a liablity, most of them do not end up with Arko type of dogs working as search and rescue dogs, or detection work in large airports where 10,000 people a day may try to pet the dog, so often times the handlers who work in these jobs lack experience with socially dominant, forwardly aggressive dogs. If we keep a female puppy back from our breeding we try to prepare it for a single purpose role from a very early age....(no bitework, teach them to love every stranger, make them crazy for any object: iron, copper, PVC, cloth, rubber hose, etc) no one in America likes to buy Dual Purpose females, so we steer all of our females down this path. Some are social enough for it, others are not.
We breed two disticly different types of working dogs here. We use dogs like Rudie Pegge and Endor to produce high drive, social, sporty dogs that can also do dual purpose work. And we use dogs like Arko and Carlos types of dogs to produce a very serious hard working dominant aggressive powerful type of dog for "street sweeping" and cell extraction type of work.
Overall I would say that Rudie lines are better suited for S & R work than Arko lines honestly, but I can give you references to people who have Arko duaghters excelling at USAR and detection work.
In my opinion the smaller French line Malinois may be the best type of dog for USAR work if you can find one with strong nerves.


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Konnie Hein said:


> So, in general, the traits of "easier in training, no handler aggression, social" are usually coupled with traits that make the dog weak in patrol/bite work?
> 
> Just trying to understand. In my line of work, the dog must be social _and_ high drive with very solid nerves, but I understand that what I do is completely different from what you do and thus a different temperament is probably required.


There are lots of Labs out their that are social and high drives with solid nerves yet arnt capable of being a police dog. You still need courage, fight and willingness to bite someone.
I have done an interview with Gerben kamphuis and he refers to the good police dogs as needing an "A-social" type behaviour, that is like a guy that is full of testosterone who loves to go out on Saturday nights, get drunk and punch on with other people. They love and live for conflict and fights.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Mike, bring him down, I will take his points from him. I don't know about the superior shit, but I am sure that there are a bunch of us that can make him look stupid in the object guard.

Gotta figure if the dog gets pissed and stays on, once I am past the 5 meter circle he gets a nice fat 0.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Mike, bring him down, I will take his points from him. I don't know about the superior shit, but I am sure that there are a bunch of us that can make him look stupid in the object guard.
> 
> Gotta figure if the dog gets pissed and stays on, once I am past the 5 meter circle he gets a nice fat 0.


He already earned full points in the object guard in the discipline in which he was trained for Jeff. 
I think you misunderstood me.......I was not talking about points, I was simply talking about guarding the object in such a way that you can not take it from him.
The superior shit was obviously a joke.............I guess I forgot to make it Marine proof.
My point was that there are many ways to guard an object so that it can not be taken by a passerby.......I believe that the KNPV way also accomplishes that, and it does so in a way that leaves much more time for drinking beer and laughing at the guys who make it harder than it needs to be.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

kristin tresidder;116200 but i made me wonder said:


> type [/I]of dog that need to 'get it' and move very quickly?
> 
> 
> 
> congratulations on your new edition BTW


Step one on day one of class is the issuing of a shovel, a baseball bat, a sharpened prong collar, a muzzle and a Tri Tronics PRO 500. Step two is the issuing of band aids (for the handler) and providing an emergency field suturing course (also for the handler) Step three usually means finding a new handler, then we return to step one, but at some point it all works out.

Just kidding of course. Actually it is usually the exact opposite of that really. Many handlers who come to me have already had a dog that they could beat up pretty bad and the dog would just take it. When I bring up a puppy here from our breeding from birth to lets say 16 months old. that dog loves me and usually never tried to bite me (his handler) but as soon as I hand the leash over to the new handler and that new guy tries to correct the dog, there is a BIG problem. Then the handler complains to me that I mislead him about the dog not being handler aggressive. This dog does not see this new guy as his handler.....he sees him as a stranger who is trying to make the dog be submissive to him. When someone gets a dog out of lines like Arko, Wibo or Carlos, or any of the old type Dutchies you must first establish a good relationship with the dog. This will likely take several weeks or maybe longer. You must earn the respect of the dog, you can not force this type of dog around, that will lead to a fight and with that type of dog you dont want to fight. When you have his respect he will work for you. Basically we try to teach people to out think
the dog and not try to out power it.


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Thanks Christopher and Mike for addressing my questions. Very much appreciate the information.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

mike suttle said:


> Step one on day one of class is the issuing of a shovel, a baseball bat, a sharpened prong collar, a muzzle and a Tri Tronics PRO 500. Step two is the issuing of band aids (for the handler) and providing an emergency field suturing course (also for the handler) Step three usually means finding a new handler, then we return to step one, but at some point it all works out.
> 
> Just kidding of course. Actually it is usually the exact opposite of that really. Many handlers who come to me have already had a dog that they could beat up pretty bad and the dog would just take it. When I bring up a puppy here from our breeding from birth to lets say 16 months old. that dog loves me and usually never tried to bite me (his handler) but as soon as I hand the leash over to the new handler and that new guy tries to correct the dog, there is a BIG problem. Then the handler complains to me that I mislead him about the dog not being handler aggressive. This dog does not see this new guy as his handler.....he sees him as a stranger who is trying to make the dog be submissive to him. When someone gets a dog out of lines like Arko, Wibo or Carlos, or any of the old type Dutchies you must first establish a good relationship with the dog. This will likely take several weeks or maybe longer. You must earn the respect of the dog, you can not force this type of dog around, that will lead to a fight and with that type of dog you dont want to fight. When you have his respect he will work for you. Basically we try to teach people to out think
> the dog and not try to out power it.


 
Well said Mike!
Why start a fight with a dog that loves to fight!


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## Sam Bishop (May 8, 2008)

"Just kidding of course. Actually it is usually the exact opposite of that really. Many handlers who come to me have already had a dog that they could beat up pretty bad and the dog would just take it. When I bring up a puppy here from our breeding from birth to lets say 16 months old. that dog loves me and usually never tried to bite me (his handler) but as soon as I hand the leash over to the new handler and that new guy tries to correct the dog, there is a BIG problem. Then the handler complains to me that I mislead him about the dog not being handler aggressive. This dog does not see this new guy as his handler.....he sees him as a stranger who is trying to make the dog be submissive to him. When someone gets a dog out of lines like Arko, Wibo or Carlos, or any of the old type Dutchies you must first establish a good relationship with the dog. This will likely take several weeks or maybe longer. You must earn the respect of the dog, you can not force this type of dog around, that will lead to a fight and with that type of dog you dont want to fight. When you have his respect he will work for you. Basically we try to teach people to out think
the dog and not try to out power it." (Quote - Mike Suttle)

This is good information. I am very interested in these kind of dogs due to the emphasis on breeding for workability and not registration papers or conformation and I like that everyone who has one seems to extole their courage and drive to fight. However, I have no idea whether I am capable of dealing with this kind of dog. My male pup (currently turning 12 months) has shown a willingness to fight me on a number of occasions which I have dealt with, not by fighting him to the death, but by training him what I do want and creating a positive situation instead of a situation where he feels fighting is necessary. I am also trying to just teach him self control gets him what he wants. I knew going in that I did not want to either start a war, or create a dog that was afraid of me - I wanted a dog that was willing to fight - just not me! It sounds like this is what you are talking about - I'm sure to a greater degree, but we all have to start somewhere. I'm thinking that once I get this dog competition ready I'll be able to explore some mal/dutchie lines - so I hope that I am "worthy" - LOL!


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Sam Bishop said:


> This is good information. I am very interested in these kind of dogs due to the emphasis on breeding for workability and not registration papers or conformation and I like that everyone who has one seems to extole their courage and drive to fight. However, I have no idea whether I am capable of dealing with this kind of dog. My male pup (currently turning 12 months) has shown a willingness to fight me on a number of occasions which I have dealt with, not by fighting him to the death, but by training him what I do want and creating a positive situation instead of a situation where he feels fighting is necessary. I am also trying to just teach him self control gets him what he wants. I knew going in that I did not want to either start a war, or create a dog that was afraid of me - I wanted a dog that was willing to fight - just not me! It sounds like this is what you are talking about - I'm sure to a greater degree, but we all have to start somewhere. I'm thinking that once I get this dog competition ready I'll be able to explore some mal/dutchie lines - so I hope that I am "worthy" - LOL!


These dogs gain confidence real easy so you have to be a little careful about not "giving in" to them also. While its best alot of the times to aviod fights with the dogs its best not to let them know you are avoiding one.[-X 
You need to be firm but *fair*. If you are unfair to them in a correction, they can be handler aggressive. And they dont tend to warn you first. If they have made the decission in their mind to go, they tend to go through with it.
However, having said that, they are great dogs. I enjoy mine. They have also made me a better handler as well.


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## Sam Bishop (May 8, 2008)

Excellent, thanks for the insight!


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Christopher Jones said:


> These dogs gain confidence real easy so you have to be a little careful about not "giving in" to them also. While its best alot of the times to aviod fights with the dogs its best not to let them know you are avoiding one.[-X
> You need to be firm but *fair*. If you are unfair to them in a correction, they can be handler aggressive. And they dont tend to warn you first. If they have made the decission in their mind to go, they tend to go through with it.
> However, having said that, they are great dogs. I enjoy mine. They have also made me a better handler as well.


Hi Chris, your'e right there. 
There are good possibilities to "not give in" and stil not react to the fight with fihgting back. 
A good way could be by reakting to the "start" with "corrective obedience"(I hope you know what I mean by that), breaking the tension and make starting the fight unplessant and stil not be fighting back.

regards,
Dick


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> Hi Chris, your'e right there.
> There are good possibilities to "not give in" and stil not react to the fight with fihgting back.
> A good way could be by reakting to the "start" with "corrective obedience"(I hope you know what I mean by that), breaking the tension and make starting the fight unplessant and stil not be fighting back.
> 
> ...


Hi Dick
Yeah thats what we are learning to do. A male pup from our Boy to Kim is very hard to handle and the owner certainly has to have his wits about him. When he takes him for a walk and a car or bike goes by the dog explodes into drive to catch the bike or car, so much so that full level on dogtra ecollars doesnt even register with the dog. This dog is under 12 months of age even. So the owner learnt that if he walks the dog with a tug in his mouth he was less likely to go into drive on cars and the like.
The issue would be when the owner tried to correct the dog for going off at a bike then the fight with the handler would start.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Mr. Van Luuwen,

I would love to see you write a book on your training. Even if you just wrote a very short pamphlet on working with the high aggression dogs I would send you money for it.

The way that the aggression is channeled in many of the dogs in KNPV, or hell just the dogs I have seen video of that you own would be of interest.

I have seen a few of these dogs come here, and they produce ok pups. They are different from the parents, and I have often wondered if it is our training, and how it is a lot different.

I bred some pretty civil Rotts at one point, but I can say that I did have trouble getting them homes, and getting them to title. This has always been something I wanted to know more about.


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Mr. Van Luuwen,
> 
> I would love to see you write a book on your training. Even if you just wrote a very short pamphlet on working with the high aggression dogs I would send you money for it.
> 
> ...


Tnx, Jeff. I'm no person with "trainingsecrets". If somebody comes along. ( Tim Martens en Gregg Tawney for example 1,5 year ago) and they are interested ,I will show and tell them my trainingmethods. I will tell them about my point of view, our dogs/bloodline, breedinggoal. At our KNPV-club and with my police K9-handlers. 
I ofcourse realise there are more ways to reach a certain goal, but for me my way works.

regards,
Dick


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

too poor to go to Holland. LOL


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## Barrie Kirkland (Nov 6, 2007)

when i read threads like this i envy what Holland has achieved with working dogs , with regard to the integration between the Police programme and civilian handler. If only other countries could follow suit


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## Sam Bishop (May 8, 2008)

Okay, so obviously I know nothing....but I think that the clarity of the test - ie the dog must do X,Y,Z and we don't care what the breed is, or who trained the dog, it just must perform to this standard and then it can be made available to the police. Also, the lack of "prettiness" in the obedience is a plus - it enables dogs of different styles and training techniques, and degree of drive for reward toys to be judged equally. Obviously politics are everywhere, but where I'm from, forget trying to train with or expose your dogs to police trainers. For one thing, they only look at one breed, and they are very exclusionary. Which may be the same there - I don't know - but I would think that good dogs are good dogs, and considering the difficulty the cops in my neck of the woods have in procuring good, healthy dogs, you'd think they'd look at different avenues. Also, they are completely governed by their head trainer - which is good, because they need to all pass a standard and everyone needs to know that this dog having passed this program is capable of these tasks - but it can make things very slow in terms of learning new techniques for training and finding bloodlines that might be healthier and that might work better. I guess part of it is that KNPV has always been treated as a working certification or test, not as a sport. Whereas, those of us who do sport here, are looked down on as having inferior dogs - which maybe we do - I don't know, but I think that my male mal is capable of doing whatever work he is trained in and my female will find her ball at any cost, come hell or high water - they could be valuable assets - but they are ruled out because of their breed and because there is no venue where I can showcase their training and abilities where police trainers/handlers will see them and acknowledge their abilites.
Sorry about the ramble, just worked most of the night and am running on a couple hours sleep - this is probably one of those times when I shouldn't hit the send button....damn email!
Anyway, going to go train my worthless sport dogs now


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> Tnx, Jeff. I'm no person with "trainingsecrets". If somebody comes along. ( Tim Martens en Gregg Tawney for example 1,5 year ago) and they are interested ,I will show and tell them my trainingmethods. I will tell them about my point of view, our dogs/bloodline, breedinggoal. At our KNPV-club and with my police K9-handlers.
> I ofcourse realise there are more ways to reach a certain goal, but for me my way works.
> 
> regards,
> Dick


Oh cool Greg Tawney is just right down the road in Sacramento. I bet he was looking for police dogs huh?


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Mr. Van Luuwen,
> I would love to see you write a book on your training.


Me too, or a dvd on basic handling and starting a young dog. Either or both would be great, how soon can you have something available ? 

I'd put a LOL smiley here,but I'm serious.


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## Chip Blasiole (Jun 7, 2006)

I am surprised and sorry to hear that KNPV, its judging, etc., is becoming watered down. My impression was that if a dog in a KNPV trial acted like he wanted to eat the judge, it was okay, as long as the dog was under control with obedience. The exception, in my mind, would be if a judge felt he needed to place his hands on the dog. Then, the dog should not be penalized for showing aggression. Why should a strong dog or his handler let a stranger come up and touch him? These dominant, "warrior" type bloodlines need to be maintained so we don't see another breed go down the tubes. Is there any discussion in KNPV circles about a need to look at the competition/judging softening up and what could be done to correct the trend?


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> Me too, or a dvd on basic handling and starting a young dog. Either or both would be great, how soon can you have something available ?
> 
> I'd put a LOL smiley here,but I'm serious.


Just as simple as you can think of: let a young dog grow out to adulthood in his own time, don't want/ask to much, but guide him. Young dogs at our home are very free, they have a lot of kenneltime, the only things we ask from a dog 'till about 1 yr old are: get housebroken, learn him to come and from about 7 mo. it is a must to come when called. It sees our house surroundings and the club, we play sometimes and that is about it...

I also have to tell that Dick has an impressive, authoritive appaerence (without being harsh if not needed) so he doesnt have to do much to be recognized as "boss" for the dogs.
All the dogs will listen to(in case of Dicks males) and/or obey me when I'm alone with them but they only have 1 boss, and I'm not the one  

Selena


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> Just as simple as you can think of: let a young dog grow out to adulthood in his own time, don't want/ask to much, but guide him. Young dogs at our home are very free, they have a lot of kenneltime, the only things we ask from a dog 'till about 1 yr old are: get housebroken, learn him to come and from about 7 mo. it is a must to come when called. It sees our house surroundings and the club, we play sometimes and that is about it...
> 
> Selena


Thanks, I've never done much with a young dog except to try to keep it interested and happy. I'm just starting to do some training now with this pup at 9 months, but nothing more than what he is ready for.


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## Xavier Neme (Sep 15, 2008)

*I have a Carlos' daughter mixed up with some Ducco II (Seegers) blood on the dam line, and I will be picking up another one in May in the Netherlands. Apparently one of the last litters of him over there since he is going to the USA. I gotta say, they are really nice; so were the sons of him I got to see working in the KNPV program there. Nice hard dogs, although they were all social. Congrats on acquiring Carlos.* * Too bad I never got a chance to visit his PHV club to see him working.*
*
Xavier.*


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Quote Konne Hein: So, in general, the traits of "easier in training, no handler aggression, social" are usually coupled with traits that make the dog weak in patrol/bite work?

No!!!!! That is BS.


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