# Choking vs Out



## Brittany silveira

What is the benefit of choking a puppy (10wks) off a rag vs teaching them an out?


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## Faisal Khan

Choking builds drive while getting the rag free for another session. Teaching the out is an OB command. On some dogs the drive is so high that teaching the OB command can come early, on others not so therefore the need to choke (ie if you force OB early on a mediocre dog he looses drive).


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## Brittany silveira

I've been using the choking 'method' on my pup and he will absolutely go nuts (still holding the rag firmly) and snarl, growl,etc while he is very obviously not breathing. I take it as a good thing that he still holds even while he can't breathe?

Meeting with my ScH trainer next week and hope to get the go ahead to teach him an out. I don't like choking him for the length of time that I currently need to to get him off.


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## Faisal Khan

A 10 week pup does not have the attn span of a 6 month old, you can very likely distract him by something simple like flicking your slipper off your foot, then snap the rag out. Save his neck before you break it at this age.


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## Brittany silveira

Thanks for the advice.

Edited to add: would distracting him with something else (while he's on the rag) teach him to pay attention to distractions and that letting go of the rag because of other 'fun' things around, is a good thing? 

When doing bite work don't we want to teach them to ignore surroundings and concentrate on the bite or?

New to ScH, sorry!


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## Bob Scott

Choking a 10 week old pup. ](*,)
*ANY *training with a 10 wk old pup should be positive. Some wont even start on a pup this young. I'd rather that happened then "choking for an out" at 10 wks.
work on the out with motivation training. The corrections/compulsion can come later if you choose and the early work will make it easier when you do decide to go in that direction.


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## Faisal Khan

Short answer = No

Long answer = When the rag is alive he should be 100% focussed on it, after a few misses when he bites it, you let him win but letting him carry it. Now after he settles and wants to chew/claw etc etc is when you distract him and steal it from him and put it away.


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## Bob Scott

Another method would be to lock up and wait for the pup to out then reward with another bite. Even then at 10 wks it's all about the win for a pup.


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## Brittany silveira

Bob Scott said:


> Choking a 10 week old pup. ](*,)
> *ANY *training with a 10 wk old pup should be positive. Some wont even start on a pup this young. I'd rather that happened then "choking for an out" at 10 wks.
> work on the out with motivation training. The corrections/compulsion can come later if you choose and the early work will make it easier when you do decide to go in that direction.


Thanks Bob. I know all about it..pups already been shaped with plenty of things. My agility dog was raised with motivational/positive training so I'm working on the same things with this new pup. I used the 'choking method' per my ScH trainer.


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## Brittany silveira

Bob Scott said:


> Another method would be to lock up and wait for the pup to out then reward with another bite. Even then at 10 wks it's all about the win for a pup.


This is what I did with my BC but was advised by the trainer to choke. I plan to ask him at the next appointment what else I can do.


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## Brittany silveira

Faisal Khan said:


> Short answer = No
> 
> Long answer = When the rag is alive he should be 100% focussed on it, after a few misses when he bites it, you let him win but letting him carry it. Now after he settles and wants to chew/claw etc etc is when you distract him and steal it from him and put it away.


Makes perfect sense. Thank you!


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## Bob Scott

I can only say don't do anything to your pup/dog that you feel uncomfortable with! If that doesn't suit your trainer I would find another trainer. JMHO! :wink:


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Just curious. Did the trainer say WHY he was employing this method?

T


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## Brittany silveira

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Just curious. Did the trainer say WHY he was employing this method?
> 
> T


To build drive. This advice was given to me at our meeting pre-pup. We have a puppy evaluation set up next week


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## Nicole Stark

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Just curious. Did the trainer say WHY he was employing this method?
> 
> T


T, absent of that information. What do you think the reasons are that this might have been suggested in the first place?


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## Robin Van Hecke

What do you guys mean by choking? It sounds brutal but if it's what I think it is, lifting the puppy's front feet off the ground until he let's go of the tug or rag in a very matter of fact way, what's the big deal? Not in the least bit traumatic, seen it used hundreds of times and have done it myself, never seen a pup keel over struggling for breath yet.
What's the big deal?


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## Brittany silveira

That's what it is Robin.


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## Jerry Lyda

I've done it and seen it done many times BUT all pups aren't the same. Sounds like your pup (and I don't know this) has a huge possive drive. 

If that is the case I would offer him another rag while he's on the bite and maybe he'll turn the first rag loose in order to get to the other. DON"T give him the second rag, go back into prey drive very fast with the first rag. I hope that helps......


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## Larry Krohn

Brittany silveira said:


> Thanks Bob. I know all about it..pups already been shaped with plenty of things. My agility dog was raised with motivational/positive training so I'm working on the same things with this new pup. I used the 'choking method' per my ScH trainer.


Bob is right on. You may really want to look for a new trainer. Choking a ten wk old to out is terrible advice


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## susan tuck

Brittany silveira said:


> I've been using the choking 'method' on my pup and he will absolutely go nuts (still holding the rag firmly) and snarl, growl,etc while he is very obviously not breathing. I take it as a good thing that he still holds even while he can't breathe?
> 
> Meeting with my ScH trainer next week and hope to get the go ahead to teach him an out. I don't like choking him for the length of time that I currently need to to get him off.





Brittany silveira said:


> ...This advice was given to me at our meeting pre-pup. We have a puppy evaluation set up next week


This is your first schH pup/dog, and you & pup have not yet met with the trainer? From what you are describing you may be doing it wrong.

Actually if your pup is snarling and growling he is breathing. Teaching an out at such an early age can be problematic, dogs can develop an ingrained automatic out (yuck) which can lead to the dog anticipating the out and releasing too soon (worse yuck).

It sounds like your trainer wants you to use the "lift up and out" method, we use this method all the time quite successfully with many puppies and young dogs. It's not so much about choking as it is about making him uncomfortable, we hold them quietly, front feet slightly elevated. No talking to or petting or touching the rag, no muss no fuss, just let the rag go dead, the pup will eventually out. Some take a little longer than others.

Since you are conflicted about this, my best advise would be for you to wait and not do anything more until you meet with your trainer, let him show you what he wants you to do, then decide whether or not you agree or want to go somewhere else.


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## Howard Gaines III

Choke the puppy and decrease the fun and drive. I would let it carry the object for as long as it likes. Obedience at this age...pure fun! ](*,)


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## Brittany silveira

Jerry Lyda said:


> I've done it and seen it done many times BUT all pups aren't the same. Sounds like your pup (and I don't know this) has a huge possive drive.
> 
> If that is the case I would offer him another rag while he's on the bite and maybe he'll turn the first rag loose in order to get to the other. DON"T give him the second rag, go back into prey drive very fast with the first rag. I hope that helps......


I started doing this last night and it has worked much better than 'choking'! Thank you!


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## susan tuck

Howard Gaines III said:


> Choke the puppy and decrease the fun and drive. I would let it carry the object for as long as it likes. Obedience at this age...pure fun! ](*,)


Exactly. When we do it with such little ones, if we have them on a harness, we are holding them up with a hand on the back of the harness, front feet slightly elevated, or if by the collar, they aren't choking, or dangling really, just uncomfortable. It's hard to describe exactly, and I couldn't find a video illustrating what I'm trying to say. You have to have a lot of patience, because with many pups, until they get the idea, you have to hold them up for a long time, but they aren't choking. 

This is why I think maybe the best thing would be to hold off doing this until you meet up with your trainer, let him show you what he wants you to do. It could be this isn't the right method for your pup, and if your trainer is any good, he will see this immediately and go to plan B.

I would not pass judgement on your trainer without actually having some hands on experience with him. As not all methods are right for all dogs, no trainer is a good fit forr every student, sometimes there just isn't a meeting of the minds. If you aren't comfortable with his methods, you will know right away, and can move on, but I would wait and see, if it were me.


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## Brittany silveira

susan tuck said:


> This is your first schH pup/dog, and you & pup have not yet met with the trainer? From what you are describing you may be doing it wrong.
> 
> Actually if your pup is snarling and growling he is breathing. Teaching an out at such an early age can be problematic, dogs can develop an ingrained automatic out (yuck) which can lead to the dog anticipating the out and releasing too soon (worse yuck).
> 
> It sounds like your trainer wants you to use the "lift up and out" method, we use this method all the time quite successfully with many puppies and young dogs. It's not so much about choking as it is about making him uncomfortable, we hold them quietly, front feet slightly elevated. No talking to or petting or touching the rag, no muss no fuss, just let the rag go dead, the pup will eventually out. Some take a little longer than others.
> 
> Since you are conflicted about this, my best advise would be for you to wait and not do anything more until you meet with your trainer, let him show you what he wants you to do, then decide whether or not you agree or want to go somewhere else.


Yes, it's the lift up and out method. He called it the choking method so that's just how I referred to it.

He does not snarl/growl the entire 'choking' process, just the first few seconds and then will go silent due to not breathing.  

Like you advised, I'll see what he says next week and go from there. I know he is a respected trainer out here & since I am so new to ScH, I am hesitant to questions training tactics of this sport. 

Thanks everyone for giving me advice! Appreciate it!


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## Brittany silveira

susan tuck said:


> I would not pass judgement on your trainer without actually having some hands on experience with him. As not all methods are right for all dogs, no trainer is a good fit forr every student, sometimes there just isn't a meeting of the minds. If you aren't comfortable with his methods, you will know right away, and can move on, but I would wait and see, if it were me.


That's what my plan is and I have no problem leaving if I don't feel it's a fit. I've left several instructors in agilty and have no issues doing it with ScH. I've observed several times and so far like what I see, although like you said, hands on experience is a very Different story.


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## Gregory Doud

Teaching a lift off is not to teach the dog to willingly give up an item as it's original design is to actually teach him to keep fighting to keep it. It's intent is to build possession and is a drive building tool. It's not supposed to teach a "willing" release at all. It's a huge part of my training and when I do this I verbally encourage my dog to keep fighting for it. My intent with a puppy or young dog is to build a beast in bite drive and this is one way I do it. 

A compliant release should be taught in prey with the handler. For example, trade him the bite item for food, for another toy, or to get the same bite item immediately back again. It's a prey out and the dog should remain in prey drive when told to release.

An aggression release is totally different and has to be taught in the context of fighting a decoy. 

And, I also teach a third release when I just want the dog to give up something and not go into prey drive or aggression. It's a subordinate release. That can only be done when he has mastered a prey out and it's never introduced in a formal training session. It's a release where he doesn't expect a prey item in return and must let go because I command him to do so. The dog is not expected to remain in drive for letting go and can go out of drive in this context. I use a totally different word for this release than the prey or aggression release.


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## Robin Van Hecke

it's not "choking". it should be called: lift the little puppy's little feet a little off the ground so that he spits the little rag or little tug out of his little mouth, you don't even have to give a little command and if you want to build a little more drive you can give the object a little kick when he drops it. That way you can start the little game all over again.
Doesn't that sound a whole lot better than "choking"?


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## Nicole Stark

Greg, I think you did a very nice job explaining that. This is how my young dog was handled though at a later point an actual choke off was utilized, maybe this is the aggression release you spoke of? Anyway, what release command do you use on the third description you offered?


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## Howard Gaines III

1. Command OUT
2. Lift off
3. Choke out/off
4. Knock the hell out of them...

Progressive steps to TEAM FAILURE! Step one is an obedience issue, not always had with LOVE and KINDNESS. Sometime an e-collar is needed, as was in my case with a high drive dog.

If the animal has a fight at one end and a battle at the other, what types of things might just happen? What issues could one build into their training?

Lift offs as Susan said are often done and are safe. When the puppy drops the rag or sleeve, praise and redirect with something else for the mind TO DO. :-k


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## Robin Van Hecke

Nicole Stark said:


> Greg, I think you did a very nice job explaining that. This is how my young dog was handled though at a later point an actual choke off was utilized, maybe this is the aggression release you spoke of? Anyway, what release command do you use on the third description you offered?




Very well explained for sure.
I'm going to venture an answer to your questions. Choking off to get an aggression release will result in hectic behavior from your dog, I think it would be better to engage the dog in his fight drive, out and then into fight drive again, same principle as outing in prey drive, dog still gets what he wants.
As far as release command, you could use anything you want but the tone is important.


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## Faisal Khan

One should not use the command "out" when outing by choke/liftoff method. If doing so then you are really confusing the dog, the choke is to build more drive for the object. Teaching the out is done differently.


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## Gregory Doud

Nicole Stark said:


> Greg, I think you did a very nice job explaining that. This is how my young dog was handled though at a later point an actual choke off was utilized, maybe this is the aggression release you spoke of? Anyway, what release command do you use on the third description you offered?


Thanks Nicole. :smile: No, I myself don't use a choke off to create an aggression release although it can be used. I first teach the dog that the release command in protection is to get his prey or win the confrontation, not to give up his prey object. Once the learning has been cemented and he knows his drive goal in protection do I ever combine giving up the prey AND going into the desired drive goal. It's really too long to get into on this forum here as there are a lot of steps to this teaching. 

The release command I use when I want the dog to go into obedience is "give". It is used in household stuff/everyday life, during obedience training when I want to end the training session by having him give up the toy, and in protection when I want him to just be obedient and not be in a working drive. It is only used in protection when my dog wins the sleeve and is clearly possessing it (for example in a cradle and the helper is a distance away). I just say the command "give" along with a sit or down command and either have the decoy pick up the arm or I put the dog in a sit or down and give the sleeve back to the helper. 

There are only two phases in IPO sport that we have to teach the dog to release something. Obedience and protection. In IPO obedience we only have the dog give up something in retrieving. And, I want him to remain in prey drive when he does give the dumbells up as it keeps speed and enthusiasm as he remains in drive. In protection, I want the dog to remain in prey drive or transfer over to aggression when I order him to stop biting. Basically the release command essentially means for my dog to immediately guard or hunt the helper depending on the situation. If I order him to guard or hunt then of course he has to stop biting to do his job.


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## Brittany silveira

Gregory Doud said:


> Thanks Nicole. :smile: No, I myself don't use a choke off to create an aggression release although it can be used. I first teach the dog that the release command in protection is to get his prey or win the confrontation, not to give up his prey object. Once the learning has been cemented and he knows his drive goal in protection do I ever combine giving up the prey AND going into the desired drive goal. It's really too long to get into on this forum here as there are a lot of steps to this teaching.
> 
> The release command I use when I want the dog to go into obedience is "give". It is used in household stuff/everyday life, during obedience training when I want to end the training session by having him give up the toy, and in protection when I want him to just be obedient and not be in a working drive. It is only used in protection when my dog wins the sleeve and is clearly possessing it (for example in a cradle and the helper is a distance away). I just say the command "give" along with a sit or down command and either have the decoy pick up the arm or I put the dog in a sit or down and give the sleeve back to the helper.
> 
> There are only two phases in IPO sport that we have to teach the dog to release something. Obedience and protection. In IPO obedience we only have the dog give up something in retrieving. And, I want him to remain in prey drive when he does give the dumbells up as it keeps speed and enthusiasm as he remains in drive. In protection, I want the dog to remain in prey drive or transfer over to aggression when I order him to stop biting. Basically the release command essentially means for my dog to immediately guard or hunt the helper depending on the situation. If I order him to guard or hunt then of course he has to stop biting to do his job.


This is helpful and makes sense on so many levels. Thanks!


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## Howard Gaines III

Faisal Khan said:


> ... the choke is to build more drive for the object. Teaching the out is done differently.


Ok I'll ask, how does choking the life out of the dog build drive for the object, assuming the object is done under prey mode? Wouldn't more prey motion give the same drive? :-k


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## Nicole Stark

Robin Van Hecke said:


> Very well explained for sure.
> I'm going to venture an answer to your questions. Choking off to get an aggression release will result in hectic behavior from your dog, I think it would be better to engage the dog in his fight drive, out and then into fight drive again, same principle as outing in prey drive, dog still gets what he wants.
> As far as release command, you could use anything you want but the tone is important.


Hi Robin thanks for the info. I can't comment on anything other than stating that my dog outs so, we're now a little bit beyond the point I spoke of earlier. Take her to the dark side and piss her off then we run into some problems. I just mean we need to be mindful of what we're doing with "fight" in this dog.


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## Nicole Stark

Gregory Doud said:


> Thanks Nicole. :smile: No, I myself don't use a choke off to create an aggression release although it can be used.



I think I may have mistakenly read aggression release, as one that is initiated through some sort of aggressive act. But it sounds like you are describing a release that leads to active aggression.

I've seen you post before about the process you spoke of with many steps involved. You don't post very often, which I think is unfortunate as you explain things in an objective and informative manner.


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## Marta Wajngarten

As originally described, I think you've got yourself a recipie for creating a dog with out and handler issues that you will spend weeks if not months fixing afterwards. It's not so much that there is a problem with the method as it can work great with some pups, but it's this particular pup's reaction I don't like. Doesn't sound right that a trainer would tell you to do this to a pup, not just without ever seeing the dog, but before you even got him and couldn't even describe the pup to him. I'm not impressed. You already got great advice regarding alternative methods.


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## Thomas Barriano

Any "trainer" that advises you to choke off a puppy BEFORE he's even seen him is someone you need to avoid IMO 
There is also a BIG difference between choking off (with a choke chain or dominant dog or prong collar) and lifting off (on a flat collar or dead ring on a fur saver?)


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## mike suttle

I think the term "choke off" is misleading. I use that term myself although I never actually choke the puppy out. We lift the puppy off the pipe, sleeve, whatever by pulling up on the flat collar as it rides a high up on his neck as possible. This causes a gag reflex and he will open his mouth, and usually wrap his legs around the pipe in an attempt to keep it. This method is used by many people, it is harmless and it absolutely builds drive through frustration.


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## Brittany silveira

I am 'lifting off' with a flat leather collar, not choking off. I unintentionally called it choking due to lack of better terms (and inexperience).

Thank you ALL for your advice. Will let you know what trainer advises once I meet with him. In the meantime I have just been distracting pup with something else, and pulling rag away when he disengages.


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## mike suttle

US customs uses the term choke off too, but they recently got in trouble for saying they"choke off" dogs. Now they use the term "lift off"


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## Nicole Stark

I remember reading about that. You certainly are closer to the details/fact than I but I seem to recall that it was a combination of things, including the use of the term choke off - certainly in one context but also in another, more publicly damaging way. Seems that there was some sort of investigation that brought all of that up and of course once it was out in the open paired with the initial allegations someone felt the need to take issue with it despite it being part of their training protocol.


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## Gregory Doud

Nicole Stark said:


> I think I may have mistakenly read aggression release, as one that is initiated through some sort of aggressive act. But it sounds like you are describing a release that leads to active aggression.
> 
> I've seen you post before about the process you spoke of with many steps involved. You don't post very often, which I think is unfortunate as you explain things in an objective and informative manner.


Thank you for the kind words Nicole. :smile: A "lift off" is done with a fur savor or flat collar and is meant for the dog to keep trying to keep it's prey item. I want the dog's last attempts to be trying to keep it's prey object. It's not choking the dog out by any means. You may even use a break stick to shorten the time of the lift off. As I stated, I also verbally encourage the dog to keep it's prey item as the lift off is being executed. As soon as it hits the ground, I immediately kick it or there is an assistant with a line attached to it so that the prey scurries away as soon as it hits the ground. And, as soon as it runs away I put the dog back on the ground so he can attempt to chase after it. Of course, if he has a leash on him he is prevented from catching it until I decide that he can hunt after it. It definitely builds drive if executed correctly. I, myself, have to use a break stick with the older dogs because of the drive I built to keep it's prey item during lift offs. They will keep fighting to possess it for a lot longer time than is productive in training.


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## Faisal Khan

Howard Gaines III said:


> Ok I'll ask, how does choking the life out of the dog build drive for the object, assuming the object is done under prey mode? Wouldn't more prey motion give the same drive? :-k


Howard, imagine you are french kissing your dream gal and want to continue doing so for 30 more seconds, at 20 seconds your handler starts squeezing the life out of you, you intensify your embrace and only when your eyes are fixin to pop out of your head you let go. 

Now next time you will want to kiss her sooner and stronger to maximize your time  Now if you were Rasputin, then there would be no need to build you up like this.


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## Daniel Lybbert

As a puppy I "lift off" most of the bites. I dont really start teaching them to out till I start working the gaurds(formal bite work?) I still have to choke my ring 3 and my ring 2 dogs off the ball or tug. I think that is fine they want that thing so bad and pulling them off makes it more so. 
I dont think choking and Outing are the samething at all. Making them the same wont work out.


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## mike suttle

Gregory Doud said:


> Thank you for the kind words Nicole. :smile: A "lift off" is done with a fur savor or flat collar and is meant for the dog to keep trying to keep it's prey item. I want the dog's last attempts to be trying to keep it's prey object. It's not choking the dog out by any means. You may even use a break stick to shorten the time of the lift off. As I stated, I also verbally encourage the dog to keep it's prey item as the lift off is being executed. As soon as it hits the ground, I immediately kick it or there is an assistant with a line attached to it so that the prey scurries away as soon as it hits the ground. And, as soon as it runs away I put the dog back on the ground so he can attempt to chase after it. Of course, if he has a leash on him he is prevented from catching it until I decide that he can hunt after it. It definitely builds drive if executed correctly. I, myself, have to use a break stick with the older dogs because of the drive I built to keep it's prey item during lift offs. They will keep fighting to possess it for a lot longer time than is productive in training.


This is exactly the way we do it here, and it works great to build frustration and a stronger desire to keep it in their mouths. 
Well said Greg, 
Hey buddy, you articulate shit really well, you should do seminars man!


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## Robin Van Hecke

The only "choking I would use would when a dog is coming up the leash, the nylon choke or cable works well for that. I hate using that but it's effective and many dogs will settle down after that experience..


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## Robin Van Hecke

What's a break stick?


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## Gregory Doud

Robin Van Hecke said:


> What's a break stick?


A break stick is something that is non-sharp that can't injure a dog that is easily placed in the back of a dog's mouth by the molars. It also must be strong enough to easily open a dog's mouth. You just wait until you see a little opening and insert carefully. Do not be in a rush to use it if the dog's has a full mouth grip and there isn't an air opening. If that's the case just be patient and continue the lift off until there is an opening. I use a paint roller bended at a slight angle.


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## mike suttle

Robin Van Hecke said:


> What's a break stick?


Its also called a baseball bat, if you apply a swift blow with the break stick (ball bat) across the skull of the puppy he will usually open his mouth long enough for the toy to be released.
:^o


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## Gregory Doud

mike suttle said:


> This is exactly the way we do it here, and it works great to build frustration and a stronger desire to keep it in their mouths.
> Well said Greg,
> Hey buddy, you articulate shit really well, you should do seminars man!


Thanks for the compliment Mike. :smile: I hope all is well.


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## mike suttle

shit, Greg beat me to the reply by 2 seconds!


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## Thomas Barriano

*Re: spit out collar*

Here you got
http://spitoutcollar.com/
Put a small tab on the collar for the decoy to grab while the dog is on the sleeve/tug. Slight pressure on the larynx and the gag reflect takes over OR just stick your finger in the corner of the dogs mouth and tickle the tongue. The dog will spit out the sleeve/tug.


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## Robin Van Hecke

Gregory Doud said:


> A break stick is something that is non-sharp that can't injure a dog that is easily placed in the back of a dog's mouth by the molars. It also must be strong enough to easily open a dog's mouth. You just wait until you see a little opening and insert carefully. Do not be in a rush to use it if the dog's has a full mouth grip and there isn't an air opening. If that's the case just be patient and continue the lift off until there is an opening. I use a paint roller bended at a slight angle.






A piece of rebar should do the trick.


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## Brittany silveira

mike suttle said:


> Its also called a baseball bat, if you apply a swift blow with the break stick (ball bat) across the skull of the puppy he will usually open his mouth long enough for the toy to be released.
> :^o


I'm tempted when he has a hold of my calf.


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## Bob Scott

Choking vs lifting. It's all much clearer now. Lifting in not at all uncommon and I don't look at it as anything abusive.


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## Nicole Stark

Bob, I'm probably wrong but it seems to me that common sense would have opened up the possibility early on that the lift off was actually taking place and not a legitimate choke off, which most people realize is often a misstated technique. It's exactly this type of nonsensical banter and nitpicking that appears to dominate the threads as of late. Maybe I am the only one that's bothered by this but that tendency unnecessarily degrades the potential of sustained and meaningful dialogue here.


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## Bob Scott

Your not wrong! ;-)


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## Thomas Barriano

Bob Scott said:


> Your not wrong! ;-)


Bob 

But you are. The proper usage is "you're not wrong" 
Seriously, there is a certain connotation with the phrase "choke off" that does NOT apply to a lift off. We need to define and agree on terms or we wind up with people ruining or physically injuring their puppies because they read that some "expert" said they should "choke them off" to build drive.


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## Faisal Khan

It is one and the same thing. The liftoff term is just more PC. Just like other terms in dog sports are being PC'd.


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## Thomas Barriano

Not even close Faisal.
Choking a dog is a lot different then lifting his feet off the ground.
I can do a damn lift off on a harness.


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## Nicole Stark

Faisal Khan said:


> It is one and the same thing. The liftoff term is just more PC. Just like other terms in dog sports are being PC'd.


Perspective is everything and that includes providing the very structure of our reality, this is for certain. Your statement is probably accurate particularly if you have never needed to choke a dog off a bite. If you have, you'd know they are not the same.


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## Gillian Schuler

Gregory Doud said:


> Teaching a lift off is not to teach the dog to willingly give up an item as it's original design is to actually teach him to keep fighting to keep it. It's intent is to build possession and is a drive building tool. It's not supposed to teach a "willing" release at all. It's a huge part of my training and when I do this I verbally encourage my dog to keep fighting for it. My intent with a puppy or young dog is to build a beast in bite drive and this is one way I do it.
> 
> A compliant release should be taught in prey with the handler. For example, trade him the bite item for food, for another toy, or to get the same bite item immediately back again. It's a prey out and the dog should remain in prey drive when told to release.
> 
> An aggression release is totally different and has to be taught in the context of fighting a decoy.
> 
> And, I also teach a third release when I just want the dog to give up something and not go into prey drive or aggression. It's a subordinate release. That can only be done when he has mastered a prey out and it's never introduced in a formal training session. It's a release where he doesn't expect a prey item in return and must let go because I command him to do so. The dog is not expected to remain in drive for letting go and can go out of drive in this context. I use a totally different word for this release than the prey or aggression release.


 
Thank you fgor explaining this. This is how I learned it. As I understand it, lifiting a pup up might let it release the sleeve - those that don't have the nerves to keep hold.


----------



## Faisal Khan

Here is Michael Ellis describing the same thing
www.youtube.com/watch?v=7QlZZ3309lw


----------



## Britney Pelletier

susan tuck said:


> Exactly. When we do it with such little ones, if we have them on a harness, we are holding them up with a hand on the back of the harness, front feet slightly elevated, or if by the collar, they aren't choking, or dangling really, just uncomfortable. It's hard to describe exactly, and I couldn't find a video illustrating what I'm trying to say. You have to have a lot of patience, because with many pups, until they get the idea, you have to hold them up for a long time, but they aren't choking.
> 
> This is why I think maybe the best thing would be to hold off doing this until you meet up with your trainer, let him show you what he wants you to do. It could be this isn't the right method for your pup, and if your trainer is any good, he will see this immediately and go to plan B.
> 
> I would not pass judgement on your trainer without actually having some hands on experience with him. As not all methods are right for all dogs, no trainer is a good fit forr every student, sometimes there just isn't a meeting of the minds. If you aren't comfortable with his methods, you will know right away, and can move on, but I would wait and see, if it were me.



Agree 100%.


People hear choking and really think someone told her to choke a 10 week old puppy? C'mon guys.. as if thousands of people don't lift their pups off the ground to out them off a rag/toy. ](*,)


----------



## Gregory Doud

Robin Van Hecke said:


> What's a break stick?


Here is a video of the use of a break stick while still engaged with the decoy. 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bKzSPFD-gH4&feature=plcp


----------



## Thomas Barriano

Robin Van Hecke said:


> What's a break stick?


Robin,

A break stick is a crutch used by trainers not good enough to teach their dog a verbal release on command. Also used by pit bull fighters on account of that locking jaw pit bull thing :-(


----------



## Thomas Barriano

Britney Pelletier said:


> Agree 100%.
> 
> 
> People hear choking and really think someone told her to choke a 10 week old puppy? C'mon guys.. as if thousands of people don't lift their pups off the ground to out them off a rag/toy. ](*,)


The "Thousands of people" aren't doing a choke off. They are doing a lift off. Please stop blaming it on political correctness and use the right term to start with.


----------



## Gregory Doud

Thomas Barriano said:


> Robin,
> 
> A break stick is a crutch used by trainers not good enough to teach their dog a verbal release on command. Also used by pit bull fighters on account of that locking jaw pit bull thing :-(


No true Thomas. It's for the dog to keep trying to bite the decoy while it's letting go. It's intent is for the dog to not willingly give up. It's designed for the dog's last breath to be trying to keep it's bite and to keep fighting. Again, it's a drive building tool. From what I'm told, the Dutch police K-9 handlers use it on the street to release their dogs from the criminals being bitten if they tactically can. They want to keep and/or build their dog's desire to keep fighting the bad guy.


----------



## Thomas Barriano

Greg,

I'll just have to disagree with you and the Dutch police. IMO there are better ways to build drive then with a pry bar.


----------



## Selena van Leeuwen

Gregory Doud said:


> From what I'm told, the Dutch police K-9 handlers use it on the street to release their dogs from the criminals being bitten if they tactically can.


The ones who havent have a clean out, perhaps. Certainly not all. I agree with Thomas.


----------



## Britney Pelletier

Thomas Barriano said:


> The "Thousands of people" aren't doing a choke off. They are doing a lift off. Please stop blaming it on political correctness and use the right term to start with.


Well here, where we train green police dogs as well as our personal sport dogs, we do refer to it as "choking off" and lift the dogs up by their collars until they release an object.. it's tomAYto, tomAHto, to me.


----------



## Thomas Barriano

BWAHAHAHAHAHA

Who is the "we" that trains police dogs here?

You can call it WTF you want. Choking isn't lifting and lifting off isn't choking off.


----------



## Bob Scott

Thomas Barriano said:


> Bob
> 
> But you are. The proper usage is "you're not wrong"
> Seriously, there is a certain connotation with the phrase "choke off" that does NOT apply to a lift off. We need to define and agree on terms or we wind up with people ruining or physically injuring their puppies because they read that some "expert" said they should "choke them off" to build drive.



If your going to check my grammar and punctuation you better give up posting on the subjects cause your gonna be way to busy. :grin:;-)
I also believe there is a big difference and have also seen "lift offs" with a harness. I've seen it with flat collars also. Don't recall any gagging or choking in those situations either.


----------



## Howard Gaines III

This has been made much more clear to me. Glad *great training* avoids the need to CHOKE, BEAT, MOTIVATE, and DRIVE BUILD.

So if I were in a gym lifting weights, a few hits to the groin would help me push the weight up faster! \\/


----------



## Howard Gaines III

Thomas Barriano said:


> Not even close Faisal.
> Choking a dog is a lot different then lifting his feet off the ground.
> I can do a damn lift off on a harness.


The end result...any dog/puppy in extreme high drive, failure to follow a command (OUT), or headstrong can have this done and will at some point spit the sleeve out. The real issue as I see it, whatever happened to GOOD foundational training and handler supported obedience?:-k


----------



## Howard Gaines III

Gregory Doud said:


> Here is a video of the use of a break stick while still engaged with the decoy.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bKzSPFD-gH4&feature=plcp


 That was about a stupid use of the BS...the decoy is still fighting and NOW the dog is required to "out" the bad guy. Seems the smart one in this vid is the DOG! :-\"


----------



## Faisal Khan

Britney Pelletier said:


> Well here, where we train green police dogs as well as our personal sport dogs, we do refer to it as "choking off" and lift the dogs up by their collars until they release an object.. it's tomAYto, tomAHto, to me.


Exactly, does not matter what you call it.


----------



## Thomas Barriano

Faisal Khan said:


> Exactly, does not matter what you call it.



Faisal,

Of course it matters what you call it. Lifting isn't choking and choking isn't lifting. If a dog is choking or his air supply is cut off?
It's choking off. If the dog is just being lifted off the ground and his air supply is NOT compromised, it ain't a choke off. It don't matter what you or any Dutch police or someones police dog training boyfriend call it.


----------



## Guest

Thomas Barriano said:


> Faisal,
> 
> Of course it matters what you call it. Lifting isn't choking and choking isn't lifting. If a dog is choking or his air supply is cut off?
> It's choking off. If the dog is just being lifted off the ground and his air supply is NOT compromised, it ain't a choke off. It don't matter what you or any Dutch police or someones police dog training boyfriend call it.


Hey Thomas, please describe me both in your terms, a little detail please would be nice....


----------



## Thomas Barriano

Jody,

It's pretty basic to me. If a choke chain or pinch collar or any collar that restricts the air supply is used, it's a choke off. If a flat collar or harness is used, it's a lift off.


----------



## Nicole Stark

Thomas, do you think a flat collar could also be used to restrict airflow to create a choke off? I mean did you intend for that type of collar to fall in the "any collar" category?


----------



## Thomas Barriano

Nicole Stark said:


> Thomas, do you think a flat collar could also be used to restrict airflow to create a choke off? I mean did you intend for that type of collar to fall in the "any collar" category?


That would get real grey, depending on the weight of the dog the width of the collar etc.. I think lifting up the dog by a flat collar is more like a harness then a choke chain or pinch. The idea of lifting the front feet off the ground is to make the dog a little uncomfortable not to choke him.


----------



## Robin Van Hecke

One can do a lift off with a dog and he could hang there for minutes with no ill effect, with a real choke off using the cable choke as I talked about earlier, the dog will pass out in the same length of time. Not the same thing at all.


----------



## Thomas Barriano

Robin Van Hecke said:


> One can do a lift off with a dog and he could hang there for minutes with no ill effect, with a real choke off using the cable choke as I talked about earlier, the dog will pass out in the same length of time. Not the same thing at all.


+1

Choking isn't lifting
Lifting isn't choking
I think I may have mentioned it before? ;-)


----------



## Faisal Khan

It is the same thing, whether you cut 100% air or 40% air you are still chocking.


----------



## Joby Becker

To me, lifting off is different than choking off a dog, regardless of the purpose for it, or the collar used...

"lifting" a dog off, can "look" like choking a dog off to some people and might even be refferred to it that way, but it is different in method than choking a dog off.

in one way, the pressure is used against the dog jaw/and throat (gag). as a function of the jaw/throat mechanics..if done properly a lift off takes a couple seconds.

in another the airflow is restricted...

the type of collar is irrelevant..one way is choking one way is not.


----------



## Robin Van Hecke

Faisal Khan said:


> It is the same thing, whether you cut 100% air or 40% air you are still chocking.[/
> 
> 
> 
> Well, if you ever have a dog that's coming up the leash at you, do a lift off ok?
> I think you're arguing for the sake of it, silly.


----------



## Zakia Days

Disregard. I caught up with the posts. Its a lift off, not a choke off.


----------



## Nicole Stark

Thomas Barriano said:


> +1
> 
> Choking isn't lifting
> Lifting isn't choking
> ;-)


But lifting and choking for sure will eventually get 'em all off :lol:...let's see how long the mods let that one go. :twisted:


----------



## Guest

Thomas Barriano said:


> +1
> 
> Choking isn't lifting
> Lifting isn't choking
> I think I may have mentioned it before? ;-)


 
ok so this is equipment based?

a flat leather collar will choke a dog a lot quicker than a pinch...so is that lifting or choking?

so if you LIFT and it takes some of there air away, its not choking? what is it? I know your lifting, but what do you call it that the dog is doing if only 40% of his air is taken?


----------



## Faisal Khan

Robin Van Hecke said:


> Faisal Khan said:
> 
> 
> 
> It is the same thing, whether you cut 100% air or 40% air you are still chocking.[/
> 
> Well, if you ever have a dog that's coming up the leash at you, do a lift off ok?
> I think you're arguing for the sake of it, silly.
> 
> 
> 
> You choke and punt, in some cases you do the helicopter so what am I missing?
Click to expand...


----------



## Thomas Barriano

Jody Butler said:


> ok so this is equipment based?
> 
> a flat leather collar will choke a dog a lot quicker than a pinch...so is that lifting or choking?
> 
> so if you LIFT and it takes some of there air away, its not choking? what is it? I know your lifting, but what do you call it that the dog is doing if only 40% of his air is taken?


]

It's consequences based. If a dogs air supply is cut off/restricted then it's a choke off. If you can restrict the air supply more with a flat collar then with a pinch ( I don't think that is true however) then its a choke off. When we start talking about % then it's getting to the point of silliness just for the sake of argument.


----------



## Joby Becker

I see a big difference in these two methods (lifting off and choking off)...again regardless of the collars used...here are 2 videos.

The methods are being used for 2 different purposes (in my opinion)...one is 20+ seconds, one is 1 or two seconds.

choke off.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZ12WunSpS4

lift off
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8WGPHp3LyOk

here is liftoff procedural description in last half of this article by Jerry B.

http://k9trainingexperts.com/index.php?p=1_24_Fundamentals-of-aggression-control-II


----------



## Guest

Thomas Barriano said:


> ]
> 
> It's consequences based. If a dogs air supply is cut off/restricted then it's a choke off. If you can restrict the air supply more with a flat collar then with a pinch ( I don't think that is true however) then its a choke off. When we start talking about % then it's getting to the point of silliness just for the sake of argument.


I think its silliness, I just wanted to hear your specific points...look at the way a pinch is designed and its intended purpose to actually choke a dog with it....or lift a dog LOL it doesn't restrict the airflow totally like nylon, cable, choke or even a flat collar when using to choke the dog off. Anyway, just asking, back into hibernation...gotta go feed my fish..


----------



## Matthew Grubb

Joby Becker said:


> To me, lifting off is different than choking off a dog, regardless of the purpose for it, or the collar used...
> 
> "lifting" a dog off, can "look" like choking a dog off to some people and might even be refferred to it that way, but it is different in method than choking a dog off.
> 
> in one way, the pressure is used against the dog jaw/and throat (gag). as a function of the jaw/throat mechanics..if done properly a lift off takes a couple seconds.
> 
> in another the airflow is restricted...
> 
> the type of collar is irrelevant..one way is choking one way is not.


+1 a lift off, done correctly, takes about a second to accomplish and has nothing to do with air flow and everything to do with gag reflex.


----------



## Guest

Joby Becker said:


> I see a big difference in these two methods (lifting off and choking off)...again regardless of the collars used...here are 2 videos.
> 
> The methods are being used for 2 different purposes (in my opinion)...one is 20+ seconds, one is 1 or two seconds.
> 
> choke off.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZ12WunSpS4
> 
> lift off
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8WGPHp3LyOk
> 
> here is liftoff procedural description in last half of this article by Jerry B.
> 
> http://k9trainingexperts.com/index.php?p=1_24_Fundamentals-of-aggression-control-II


 
ok, try those same two procedures with the same dog......


----------



## Britney Pelletier

Thomas Barriano said:


> Faisal,
> 
> Of course it matters what you call it. Lifting isn't choking and choking isn't lifting. If a dog is choking or his air supply is cut off?
> It's choking off. If the dog is just being lifted off the ground and his air supply is NOT compromised, it ain't a choke off. It don't matter what you or any Dutch police or someones police dog training boyfriend call it.


I'm sorry, Thomas.. I understand now. I wouldn't actually own a dog that willingly dropped something they were possessing by simply being "lifted off" (as defined by you), so perhaps that's why I was confused.

You are in Colorado, yet I am in North Carolina.. unless you stopped by recently and I missed you, I don't think you have a clue who is training police dogs here. Cute of you to try and keep tabs on people's personal lives though!


----------



## Joby Becker

Jody Butler said:


> ok, try those same two procedures with the same dog......


well there is that as well.. 

I'll look around or shoot some if I cant find any...I looked for a little bit and could not find anything showing both with the same dog.


----------



## Thomas Barriano

Britney Pelletier said:


> I'm sorry, Thomas.. I understand now. I wouldn't actually own a dog that willingly dropped something they were possessing by simply being "lifted off" (as defined by you), so perhaps that's why I was confused.
> 
> >Britney
> 
> >I don't know why you are confused just that you are.
> >A dog just doesn't "drop off" There's the gag reflex involved
> >most of the time. Look back at the spit out collar link I posted
> >a couple of replies ago.
> 
> You are in Colorado, yet I am in North Carolina.. unless you stopped by recently and I missed you, I don't think you have a clue who is training police dogs here. Cute of you to try and keep tabs on people's personal lives though!
> 
> >Interesting that even though no names were mentioned, you
> >jump to the conclusion I was talking about you when I said
> >police dog training boy friend? Maybe I was talking
> >about Ariel and Mike ? ;-)
> >However since YOU brought it up. How many police dogs
> >did you train before you started at Tarheel/ dating Jerry?


----------



## Britney Pelletier

actually Thomas, it had nothing to do with "someone's police dog training boyfriend" and had everything to do with the comment you made directly to me, seen here:



> BWAHAHAHAHAHA
> 
> Who is the "we" that trains police dogs here?


you seem to have a lot of personal anguish with someone you've never met that lives across the country, which is a little scary to me. I'm sure it has lots to do with whatever you think you know or whatever horribly traumatic experiences you had in the past, but I won't be taking part in your personal insults as part of a general discussion. Not sure why you can't seem to avoid them. 


Cheers!


----------



## Connie Sutherland

Let's return to the topic.


----------



## Britney Pelletier

> Britney
> 
> I don't know why you are confused just that you are.
> A dog just doesn't "drop off" There's the gag reflex involved
> most of the time.



So how does one accomplish a "lift off" on a harness, as you claimed you can do so?


----------



## Joby Becker

Britney Pelletier said:


> So how does one accomplish a "lift off" on a harness, as you claimed you can do so?


I was wondering that as well actually.


----------



## Steve Strom

Britney Pelletier said:


> So how does one accomplish a "lift off" on a harness, as you claimed you can do so?


No gag reflex, and you have to be careful, but I blew in his ear.


----------



## Thomas Barriano

Britney Pelletier said:


> So how does one accomplish a "lift off" on a harness, as you claimed you can do so?



Either read what I wrote and not what you think I wrote or please refrain from replying to my posts in the future. I don't have time for your drama and paranoia. 


"I don't know why you are confused just that you are.
A dog just doesn't "drop off" There's the gag reflex involved MOST of the time."


----------



## Thomas Barriano

Steve Strom said:


> No gag reflex, and you have to be careful, but I blew in his ear.


Sticking your finger in the back of his mouth and touching his tongue gets a better gag reflex. Blowing in his ear just makes him want to "follow you anywhere"


----------



## Guest

Joby Becker said:


> I see a big difference in these two methods (lifting off and choking off)...again regardless of the collars used...here are 2 videos.
> 
> The methods are being used for 2 different purposes (in my opinion)...one is 20+ seconds, one is 1 or two seconds.
> 
> choke off.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZ12WunSpS4
> 
> lift off
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8WGPHp3LyOk
> 
> here is liftoff procedural description in last half of this article by Jerry B.
> 
> http://k9trainingexperts.com/index.php?p=1_24_Fundamentals-of-aggression-control-II


OK, do I think there is a difference? Well in those example videos it showed two different dogs of different stages of drive and possession.... the training could of played a role in the lift/choke as well, not to mention different peices of equipment used. Now, would of it been the same using the same techinique and equipment on opposite dogs? I seriously doubt it, but then again, I'm just saying it like it is...

Lift off in a harness? building a dog to bite and hold on? Pissing him off? Building him enviormentally? I don't know what you call it, but it isnt a traditional lift off from what I am use to. 

Lift off I can see for building, but realistically your doing the same damn thing, just in a different manner or technique for a different application. Some people use it to build and some for the out, others just cause they seen it done before and they have no freaking idea what they are doing..

So is it the same? Possibly, but like everything else, different style of training for a different application? 

Back to my fish.....


----------



## susan tuck

It's not uncommon for there to be more than one definition or slightly varying definitions for various training terms, depending on who you train with, what discipline you are training in, what part of the world you live in, even region to region, etc.. I think that's what's going on here.


----------



## Patrick Murray

All I can say is, I'm glad I don't train for sport or police work because I couldn't care less if my personal protection dogs aren't real keen on "outing". I know what a pain in the ass it is with some of those crazy dogs that refuse to release! :lol:


----------



## Britney Pelletier

Thomas Barriano said:


> Not even close Faisal.
> Choking a dog is a lot different then lifting his feet off the ground.
> _*I can do a damn lift off on a harness.*_


This is what I read that you wrote, actually. Since according to you, a "lift off" involves a gag reflex, how does one accomplish that on a harness? 


Drama and paranoia? Right.. I apologize for not laying down for your ridiculous and unnecessary comments directed toward me.


----------



## Britney Pelletier

Jody Butler said:


> OK, do I think there is a difference? Well in those example videos it showed two different dogs of different stages of drive and possession.... the training could of played a role in the lift/choke as well, not to mention different peices of equipment used. Now, would of it been the same using the same techinique and equipment on opposite dogs? I seriously doubt it, but then again, I'm just saying it like it is...
> 
> Lift off in a harness? building a dog to bite and hold on? Pissing him off? Building him enviormentally? I don't know what you call it, but it isnt a traditional lift off from what I am use to.
> 
> Lift off I can see for building, but realistically your doing the same damn thing, just in a different manner or technique for a different application. Some people use it to build and some for the out, others just cause they seen it done before and they have no freaking idea what they are doing..
> 
> So is it the same? Possibly, but like everything else, different style of training for a different application?
> 
> Back to my fish.....



Couldn't agree more.


----------



## Thomas Barriano

Britney Pelletier said:


> This is what I read that you wrote, actually. Since according to you, a "lift off" involves a gag reflex, how does one accomplish that on a harness?
> 
> 
> Drama and paranoia? Right.. I apologize for not laying down for your ridiculous and unnecessary comments directed toward me.


OK Brittney read s l o w l y 
note the highlighted "MOST" in the previous post.
Note the reference to the finger tickling the tongue gag technique (which can be used while holding the dog by the harness).
You've got yourself convinced you're a "police dog trainer" and want to sign your posts with "Marketing & Media Coordinator" ?
Knock yourself out. just don't expect me to buy your delusion.


----------



## Taryna Mitchell

Wow...12 pages on holding a puppy by the collar to get him to drop a toy....just flank him already and be done with it!!!! 

P.s. that was rhetorical....no need to debate the merits or dangers of flanking


----------



## mike suttle

Taryna Mitchell said:


> Wow...12 pages on holding a puppy by the collar to get him to drop a toy....just flank him already and be done with it!!!!
> 
> P.s. that was rhetorical....no need to debate the merits or dangers of flanking


God Taryna, dont even get me started on what a bad idea it is to flank a working dog to get him off the bite. LOL


----------



## Howard Gaines III

Robin Van Hecke said:


> Faisal Khan said:
> 
> 
> 
> It is the same thing, whether you cut 100% air or 40% air you are still chocking.[/Well, if you ever have a dog that's coming up the leash at you, do a lift off ok?
> I think you're arguing for the sake of it, silly.
> 
> 
> 
> \\/
Click to expand...


----------



## Britney Pelletier

Thomas Barriano said:


> You've got yourself convinced you're a "police dog trainer" and want to sign your posts with "Marketing & Media Coordinator" ?
> Knock yourself out. just don't expect me to buy your delusion.


Nope, never claimed I was.. at any point in time, ever.

I don't "sign my posts" with anything, other than a quote from Charlie Brown.. weirdo.



Have a lovely day!


----------



## Howard Gaines III

mike suttle said:


> God Taryna, dont even get me started on what a bad idea it is to flank a working dog to get him off the bite. LOL


 Thank you MIKE b/c I have seen some get nasty over that move...


----------



## Connie Sutherland

The little flame war ..... please end it.

We will have to delete posts otherwise.

Thank you!


----------



## Taryna Mitchell

Howard Gaines III said:


> Thank you MIKE b/c I have seen some get nasty over that move...


Just trying to lighten the mood. Carry on.


----------



## mike suttle

Howard Gaines III said:


> Thank you MIKE b/c I have seen some get nasty over that move...


I just hate the idea of a dog learning to let go when someone grabs them anywhere, we teach our dogs to fight through being flanked, picked up, slammed around, punched, kicked , etc. I never understood why in world you'd want your dog to pop off when he is grabbed somewhere, buy anyone. Yet I see many people doing this.


----------



## jamie lind

mike suttle said:


> I just hate the idea of a dog learning to let go when someone grabs them anywhere, we teach our dogs to fight through being flanked, picked up, slammed around, punched, kicked , etc. I never understood why in world you'd want your dog to pop off when he is grabbed somewhere, buy anyone. Yet I see many people doing this.


if this was true. wouldnt the dog also sit if the bad guy said sit? just wondering what the difference would be.


----------



## Ariel Peldunas

jamie lind said:


> if this was true. wouldnt the dog also sit if the bad guy said sit? just wondering what the difference would be.


I think it would depend upon how compliant the dog is or how severely the dog has been corrected for obedience. It also has to do with context. Most dogs aren't conditioned to stop and sit as they are being sent for a bite or in the middle of a fight. I have seen very compliant dogs obey commands from a decoy, but usually while they are in obedience mode. However, a verbal command is very different than physically manhandling a dog ...especially if the dog has learned there is pain involved with being grabbed in a certain area and the way to alleviate that pain is to stop biting.


----------



## mike suttle

jamie lind said:


> if this was true. wouldnt the dog also sit if the bad guy said sit? just wondering what the difference would be.


What I know for sure is that if a dog is conditioned to let go when his handler flanks him, he will also let go when I flank him as the decoy, I've seen in many, many times.
Most of my dogs dont even sit when I tell them to , so they would not likely sit for the decoy either. :razz:


----------



## jamie lind

mike suttle said:


> What I know for sure is that if a dog is conditioned to let go when his handler flanks him, he will also let go when I flank him as the decoy, I've seen in many, many times.
> Most of my dogs dont even sit when I tell them to , so they would not likely sit for the decoy either. :razz:


do you find when yoiu flank them they then rebite or do they out?


----------



## mike suttle

jamie lind said:


> do you find when yoiu flank them they then rebite or do they out?


they let go of me, which gives me time to get in their heads, they will usually try to rebite, but everytime I flank them they will pop off and soon they get so rattled they usually go away


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## jamie lind

do you know of any dogs that you know have been trained that way that havnt had that problem?


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## mike suttle

jamie lind said:


> do you know of any dogs that you know have been trained that way that havnt had that problem?


honestly i dont, once a dog is conditioned to let go at the feel of being flanked, and he learns that the way to make that pain / annoyance stop is to release the bite, then he will do that for anyone who is flanking him. I can peel amost all dogs off of me on a suit, but the ones who are already trained by their handlers to let go by being flanked are very easy to peel off, get into their heads, and send them out the door.


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## Travis Ragin

mike suttle said:


> Most of my dogs dont even sit when I tell them to , so they would not likely sit for the decoy either. :razz:


Mr.Suttle

Have/do you test your dogs as to will they sit and/or obey for a decoy who suddenly pulls out a ball to fetch?


Also,what is your criteria for a dog to re-bite (if ever)?


I'm thinking if a perp were wearing something like a thick carrhart like jacket/pants,and then while the dog was gripping the perp manages to slip the coat/pants off and still lets the dog maintain its grip?......not dropping the jacket on the side,but still actively engaging the dog to bite it?(for distraction)


If you already have video of this just point me to it,as you've piqued my curiosity with this post.

thanks,

t


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## jamie lind

mike suttle said:


> honestly i dont, once a dog is conditioned to let go at the feel of being flanked, and he learns that the way to make that pain / annoyance stop is to release the bite, then he will do that for anyone who is flanking him. I can peel amost all dogs off of me on a suit, but the ones who are already trained by their handlers to let go by being flanked are very easy to peel off, get into their heads, and send them out the door.


so you think the character of the dog wouldnt matter if it was trained this way the results would be the same?


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## mike suttle

jamie lind said:


> so you think the character of the dog wouldnt matter if it was trained this way the results would be the same?


 from what Ive seen if a dog is conditioned to release the bite from that method, the decoy can keep flanking him and the dog will eventually stop the fight. I've done it with many very good dogs. I can do the same with an e collar, if I as the decoy have the transmitter and hit the power everytime the dog bites me, if the dog is conditioned to release with the e collar he will very quickly stop biting me. However if the dog has learned to push through the e collar then he will likely roll his eyes back in his head and ride the thunder out. We condition all of our dual purpose dogs from very tiny puppies to deal with the slight pain stim of being flanked, lifted up by their tails, picked up by the scruff while they are biting and not to let go. I will get some video when Ariel gets back of some of this, as well as the way we choke / lift our puppies off the bite to build drive.


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## jamie lind

mike suttle said:


> from what Ive seen if a dog is conditioned to release the bite from that method, the decoy can keep flanking him and the dog will eventually stop the fight. I've done it with many very good dogs. I can do the same with an e collar, if I as the decoy have the transmitter and hit the power everytime the dog bites me, if the dog is conditioned to release with the e collar he will very quickly stop biting me. However if the dog has learned to push through the e collar then he will likely roll his eyes back in his head and ride the thunder out. We condition all of our dual purpose dogs from very tiny puppies to deal with the slight pain stim of being flanked, lifted up by their tails, picked up by the scruff while they are biting and not to let go. I will get some video when Ariel gets back of some of this, as well as the way we choke / lift our puppies off the bite to build drive.


thanks


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## mike suttle

Hey Jamie, I would like to add that a dog can be de-sensitized to this as well, but my whole point is why create this issue in the first place. The odds a suspect having a transmitter in his pocket tuned to the same frenquency as the collar the dog may be wearing on the street are pretty low. The odds of the suspect putting his hands on the dog and maybe grabbing him by the flank are pretty high. I just dont want my dogs conditioned to let go at the sensation of being flanked by someone, anyone.


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## jamie lind

mike suttle said:


> Hey Jamie, I would like to add that a dog can be de-sensitized to this as well, but my whole point is why create this issue in the first place. The odds a suspect having a transmitter in his pocket tuned to the same frenquency as the collar the dog may be wearing on the street are pretty low. The odds of the suspect putting his hands on the dog and maybe grabbing him by the flank are pretty high. I just dont want my dogs conditioned to let go at the sensation of being flanked by someone, anyone.


i would think the odds are pretty low that the suspect would be able to flank him multiple times too. i can see why you wouldnt want to create the problem though. it doesnt really matter to me in my training because my dog will never be asked to fight someone for real, but it is interesting. thanks again for the opinions.


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## Thomas Barriano

Britney Pelletier said:


> Nope, never claimed I was.. at any point in time, ever.
> 
> I don't "sign my posts" with anything, other than a quote from Charlie Brown.. weirdo.
> 
> 
> 
> Have a lovely day!



"Well here, where WE train green police dogs as well as our personal sport dogs, we do refer to it as "choking off" and lift the dogs up by their collars until they release an object.. "

Sure sounds like you're including yourself in the "we" category?


"Send resumes to: Britney Pelletier, Marketing & Media Coordinator: [email protected]"

Sure looks like you signed the Tarheel Apprentice post with a "title" ??

Thanks I had a GREAT day
Flann just got his IPO II under USA judge 
Bill Szentmiklosi today at the Denver Area Rottweiler Klub (DARK) He was the only one of 
three IPO II's to pass all three phases so he was Top IPO II with a 88 78 80 246.


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## Ariel Peldunas

Travis Ragin said:


> Mr.Suttle
> 
> Have/do you test your dogs as to will they sit and/or obey for a decoy who suddenly pulls out a ball to fetch?
> 
> 
> Also,what is your criteria for a dog to re-bite (if ever)?
> 
> 
> I'm thinking if a perp were wearing something like a thick carrhart like jacket/pants,and then while the dog was gripping the perp manages to slip the coat/pants off and still lets the dog maintain its grip?......not dropping the jacket on the side,but still actively engaging the dog to bite it?(for distraction)
> 
> 
> If you already have video of this just point me to it,as you've piqued my curiosity with this post.
> 
> thanks,
> 
> t


Mike can add to this or correct me if he disagrees, but the things you mentioned are easily addressed in training. Although a dog that releases when flanked may not be genetically flawed, the dog has been conditioned to respond in an undesirable way to a pain stimulus. In testing a green dog for sale, this is more of a concern because it will be difficult to counter-condition. Training the dog to ignore commands or toys/prey objects from the decoy is much easier. If the dog realizes that there is no fight or satisfaction in a dead object or that he cannot obtain the object, he will learn to push through to the decoy. When I get back from vacation, we can show some video of this progression. I trained my own dog to go over or past a sleeve or suit jacket presented by the decoy in order to get to the bite. Sometimes, if she cannot get past the presented object, she will bite it and immediately spit it out once the decoy releases his grip in order to bite the decoy.

Anyway, hope this answers your question.

I forgot to add, while it is a likely possibility that a suspect may slip off an item of clothing, how likely is it that the suspect would pull out a reward toy and know how to properly entice/command the dog? I certainly believe in training for every possibility, but maybe it's not important to test for this when selecting dogs.


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## Connie Sutherland

Thomas B and Britney P ..... maybe "ignore" will be the best thing for you guys.

Either that or take it to PMs.

Thank you.


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## Travis Ragin

Ariel Peldunas said:


> I forgot to add, while it is a likely possibility that a suspect may slip off an item of clothing, how likely is it that the suspect would pull out a reward toy and know how to properly entice/command the dog?.


These days?.....VERY likely I would say.


I've heard 12 yr old kids yell at dogs barking to _"platz" _and to _"aus"_ to get them to shut up,and more than that..........dog training(and the lingo/tools involved) is pretty prevalent everywhere nowdays....and have been quite accessible(WWW) to anyone for several years now(criminals included).

Bad guys can be dog owners too...


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## Ariel Peldunas

Travis Ragin said:


> These days?.....VERY likely I would say.
> 
> 
> I've heard 12 yr old kids yell at dogs barking to _"platz" _and to _"aus"_ to get them to shut up,and more than that..........dog training(and the lingo/tools involved) is pretty prevalent everywhere nowdays....and have been quite accessible(WWW) to anyone for several years now(criminals included).
> 
> Bad guys can be dog owners too...


Yelling a command at a dog is one thing. Pulling out a reward, teasing the dog with it and commanding the dog properly is another ...especially in the middle of a chase or apprehension. Most of the dogs we get in know some obedience ...some pretty well. And like Mike said ...they are happy to give us the "doggy finger" until we either develop a relationship, show them something they want to work for or get in their ass. I am skeptical that in the middle of a deployment a criminal has time for any of this. Like I said, not impossible, but not likely.


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## Faisal Khan

At the end of the day, with everything being said, it is still a CHOKE, hehe.


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## Travis Ragin

Ariel Peldunas said:


> I am skeptical that in the middle of a deployment a criminal has time for any of this. Like I said, not impossible, but not likely.


"Not likely"......in your opinion......and also, most importantly,only in the context of apprehension dogs.

A criminal trying to outsmart/fight a Police dog knows his time is limited,because there is going to 10+ Officers right behind that dog rushing in to help subdue him.


A criminal(S) mugging/facing a lone person out jogging with their protection dog will be a totally different scenario and rules of engagement.





I'm also just realizing we are talking about 2 completely different dogs here....I'll remember that in the future!






edit* *under*estimating a criminal/bad guy....as a civilian,military or LE....isn't ever a wise thing to do....IMO


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## Ariel Peldunas

Travis Ragin said:


> "Not likely"......in your opinion......and also, most importantly,only in the context of apprehension dogs.
> 
> A criminal trying to outsmart/fight a Police dog knows his time is limited,because there is going to 10+ Officers right behind that dog rushing in to help subdue him.
> 
> 
> A criminal(S) mugging/facing a lone person out jogging with their protection dog will be a totally different scenario and rules of engagement.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm also just realizing we are talking about 2 completely different dogs here....I'll remember that in the future!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> edit* *under*estimating a criminal/bad guy....as a civilian,military or LE....isn't ever a wise thing to do....IMO


No, I really don't think it matters whether it's a PSD or a PPD. Both dogs should have the same commitment to ignore distractions and bite. And if anything, a PPD handler should have a lot more control over how their dog reacts to distractions because they should not be deploying their dog out of sight or really beyond the extent of their leash. They aren't sending the dog to apprehend a suspect. They are utilizing the dog to deter and guard their personal space. If someone did attack me when I was jogging with my PPD and they happened to have a ball or a tug and happened to know how to engage my dog and give him commands, I would either pull my dog back towards me to keep them away from the toy or allow my dog to get the toy, pull him back, take it away and then refocus him on the attacker. But all this is a moot point because I do train my dogs to push past toys and distractions for the bite.

And you are misunderstanding my point. I am not saying you shouldn't train for any scenario, no matter how unlikely. I just don't believe it's worth testing for whether or not a dog will respond to commands from a stranger wielding a reward when selecting green dogs. Additionally, I still don't think it's likely that some random criminal will have the know how to use this technique anyway. I have met a lot of "dog people" who know little to nothing about training and rewarding a dog. Heck, I have worked with handlers and trainers who couldn't get a trained dog to do proper obedience. I'm just not buying that this is something that a PSD or PPD handler should expect to encounter every day. Should we train for it, sure ...especially for the likelihood that a jacket or article of clothing may be slipped. But will I pass over otherwise good dogs because a stranger can show them a toy and get them to do obedience, nah. I'll take my chances on my training ability.


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## Joby Becker

Travis Ragin said:


> Mr.Suttle
> 
> Have/do you test your dogs as to will they sit and/or obey for a decoy who suddenly pulls out a ball to fetch?
> 
> Also,what is your criteria for a dog to re-bite (if ever)?
> 
> I'm thinking if a perp were wearing something like a thick carrhart like jacket/pants,and then while the dog was gripping the perp manages to slip the coat/pants off and still lets the dog maintain its grip?......not dropping the jacket on the side,but still actively engaging the dog to bite it?(for distraction)
> 
> If you already have video of this just point me to it,as you've piqued my curiosity with this post.
> thanks,
> t


NOT speaking for Mike, but I do have a dog he bred, and felt like typing.

First, I can say I have never seen a dog that likes to fight be distracted by a ball being thrown, the focus is on fighting, not chasing a ball. I dont know if Mike tests for a ball or not, I would imagine not, (just guessing) as it is not really a factor with dogs like the ones that Mike likes. 

I seriously doubt the dog would even register a ball. Most people will try stuff like sleeves, tugs, sacks, and other bite related stuff, which is way more enticing to most dogs.

Maybe a single purpose dog with very little bitework in them would respond to a ball. But then again if the guy threw a metal pipe, he might have a better chance than with a ball, at Mike’s place.. 

I would also guess that if the dog was raised and trained in a fashion that he would be expected to listen to the decoy and respond to rewards from him, that it is very possible that would happen with a decoy he knows and trusts, in OB mode but dont think that if dog was with strange decoy or in a real fight, that it would...

As far as the other with coats and jackets, lots of people train for that. Put a sleeve on over the jacket..slip it...take a bite in a jacket, slip that, then take a hidden sleeve bite..not sure if Mike trains for that, for dogs he is selling, honestly..as that might be up to the people training the dogs after he sells them. But will guess that he has done that kind of thing often.

As for my dog from mike, toys and balls are invisible, tugs too, even if I have them, if a decoy is around. 

My dog will listen to my training decoy if he corrects her for something, usually as he is a close friend to the dog, and she trusts him, but she will not listen to others in normal training, hell, it is hard enough to get her to listen to me..lol. 

I seriously doubt if she got into a real fight with anyone that any toy or command the guy pulled out would matter. 

As far as with my decoy She might play tug with him if he slipped his jacket off., I have not done much training with her in that regard, to be honest..in my limited experiences with dogs biting people (as PPD) no one has tried that, in my experiences or those that I have heard of. 
I know for a fact my decoy would never try that with the dog offleash, she has bitten guys for real in training, including him. We have done it a few times onleash with the jacket, and she did stick with it most of those times, but not all, and the times she did, it did not take much to get her off of it. But that is training, with guy she knows and trusts.

sometimes it is hard to even slip a bite jacket with a hard biter, let alone a normal jacket, I would think the dogs that Mike has would not be just holding onto a carhart jacket, they would be holding or hunting for the man inside

I would bet it would be very difficult for someone to try to take of a piece of clothing and play tug with it with a large strong full biting dog, that is actively trying to fight them. 

I would also guess a very astute perp could present a bite that the dog would take, in many cases..but that doesnt mean he is not gonna get messed up, unless he has some sort of protection on..

I like to train PPD stuff, and exposure to things is great..but the endless possibilities of variables and the endless theories that I read sometimes, while interesting, sometimes make even me roll my eyes..

A PPD is one facet of defense, meant to keep a guy busy while you can do whatever it is you are going to do..nothing wrong with helping your dog out, like the cops do, if you need to..

I mean think about it rationally…You put your dog on the guy…unless he is a trained fighter and/or very experienced with working dogs as an agitator/decoy, without a weapon he is gonna have his plate very full fighting a dog that wants to fight him, if he does have a weapon and uses it, the dog might be toast for sure.

But realistically I look at it this way…I will put my dog on someone, then decide if I am running for a weapon, staying and fighting, or retreating to a better area.

I do not seriously think that a normal person is going to get into a fight with a large powerful dog, fight it, overpower it, and make it run, or kill it, and then come after you like the terminator..If he is that hell bent on killing you, a dog will probably be killed with a weapon anyhow. I have yet to even hear one story of a person fighting a dog hand to hand and then following through with his attack on the dogs owner…I have heard lots of stories and seen a few people scream, run away, give up, or go into shock…

If I put a dog on someone, I expect that dog to possibly end up dead, and hope he keeps fighting until he is if he has to, or until he is seriously injured, and if the dog is one that will do that, training for all the theoretical scenarios might not make much of a difference. Best thing to have is a dog that wants to bite and fight someone.

Just my .02….


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## mike suttle

Travis Ragin said:


> Mr.Suttle
> 
> Have/do you test your dogs as to will they sit and/or obey for a decoy who suddenly pulls out a ball to fetch?
> 
> 
> Also,what is your criteria for a dog to re-bite (if ever)?
> 
> 
> I'm thinking if a perp were wearing something like a thick carrhart like jacket/pants,and then while the dog was gripping the perp manages to slip the coat/pants off and still lets the dog maintain its grip?......not dropping the jacket on the side,but still actively engaging the dog to bite it?(for distraction)
> 
> 
> If you already have video of this just point me to it,as you've piqued my curiosity with this post.
> 
> thanks,
> 
> t


Hey Travis, I somehow missed this post earlier, sorry about the late reply here. I dont usually test our green dogs this way when we are purchasing them because during training (whether we train them or our end user does) this will be proofed anyway. In the patrol test we are looking mostly at the dogs willingness to stay in the fight under a lot of mental and physical stress. To me this is a training issue than can be prepared for with the dogs we select for this purpose.
The type of dog that we chose for dual purpose dogs bite very full, they always want to keep their mouths 100% full which means two things.....it is very difficult to slip off a carrhart jacket while they are biting you, and if you did manage to get it off they would prefer to come back to you to fill their mouths again. Now, if a very skilled person could slip the jacket, roll it up so that the dog could keep his mouth full of the material, and keep the jacket active and very much alive he may be able to keep the dog engaged on the jacket, but as soon as the jacket ripped and the dog lost a full mouth or the prey (jacket) died (slipped from the guys hands) the dog is comming back to the man for another full grip. In the case of a PSD this gives the officers enough time to subdue the man while he is distracted by the dog. In the case of a PPD this gives the owner of the dog time to impliment plan "B" whether that be to help the dog in the fight, run for safety, draw the gun that I always carry with me for example......whatever.


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## Howard Gaines III

Flanking is something that I've done on older dogs but the puppy issue...never. I want them to fight and get the rag or tug,,,AND I want them to hold it as long as they like. The OUT command is great in its own time. But when you are teaching them to target and bite..why screw with the other small stuuf. Mike I agree again, the dog should stay in the game regardless of the issues facing it.


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## Patrick Murray

Connie Sutherland said:


> Thomas B and Britney P ..... maybe "ignore" will be the best thing for you guys.
> 
> Either that or take it to PMs.
> 
> Thank you.


Maybe they should just get married. :wink:


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## Thomas Barriano

Patrick Murray said:


> Maybe they should just get married. :wink:


I doubt if that idea will go over with my wife and her boyfriend? ;-)


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## mike suttle

Thormas Barriano said:


> I doubt if that idea will go over with my wife and her boyfriend? ;-)


Your wife and her boyfriend??????? What kind of a marriage do you guys have Thomas???
Where I come from our wives aren't allowed to have boyfriends.:grin:


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## Faisal Khan

Patrick Murray said:


> Maybe they should just get married. :wink:


Party time.


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## Thomas Barriano

mike suttle said:


> Your wife and her boyfriend??????? What kind of a marriage do you guys have Thomas???
> Where I come from our wives aren't allowed to have boyfriends.:grin:


Britney's boyfriend. My wife's last boyfriend is buried in the woods where he'll never be found ;-)


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## Ariel Peldunas

mike suttle said:


> Where I come from our wives aren't allowed to have boyfriends.:grin:


They're not?! Damn.


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## mike suttle

Ariel Peldunas said:


> They're not?! Damn.


And my girlfriends are not allowed to have boyfriends either Darling......see Thomas's last post, we have lots of woods around here


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## Matthew Grubb

I have seen "flank dogs" out and bite their handlers....

out and re-bite....

out and refuse to bite....

out and run away.....

clamp down, roll their eyes back in their head and go to that "special place".....

and last but not least...out as soon as anyone goes near their bum bum.....

Sooooo... just say NO to flanking.


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## Christopher Smith

Thomas Barriano said:


> I doubt if that idea will go over with my wife and her boyfriend? ;-)


What would your boyfriend say?


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## Gregory Doud

mike suttle said:


> I just hate the idea of a dog learning to let go when someone grabs them anywhere, we teach our dogs to fight through being flanked, picked up, slammed around, punched, kicked , etc. I never understood why in world you'd want your dog to pop off when he is grabbed somewhere, buy anyone. Yet I see many people doing this.


+1 Mike. Excellent post and agree with you 100%. - Greg


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