# Nut



## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

I have a 9 week old pup with one testicle up and the other down. What is the best plan of action...I don't care to ever breed the dog but want to do obedience and personal protection. The vet said it can turn cancerous, and (big suprise)recommended I have the pup neutered.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

well. can the vet feel it? is it just not down as much as one might normally be? or is waaay up there...

I would say not to worry about it too much, unless it nowhere to be found. I would also say if it has not dropped by 6 months of age, it probably is not gonna drop. 

the vets on here will give you the scoop though


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> well. can the vet feel it? is it just not down as much as one might normally be? or is waaay up there...
> 
> I would say not to worry about it too much, unless it nowhere to be found. I would also say if it has not dropped by 6 months of age, it probably is not gonna drop.
> 
> the vets on here will give you the scoop though


Oh she didn't say..... and I didn't know to ask. Its my first time encountering a one nutter. Neuterred dogs don't typically excell in bite work right?


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Well, I've read that the likelihood of cancer developing in the retained testicle is thirteen times the average. 

I've also read disagreement on when the best time to neuter a cryptorchid is.

Some recommend removing that one asap and then the other one after adolescence, and some recommend a kind of compromise, with both done at a six months to a year or so.

I've never read anything authoritative saying not to neuter a cryptorchid. I think the question is "when," and not "if."

I haven't read up on the topic in a while, though, so I hope the vets here do see the thread.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

I found this: http://vetmedicine.about.com/od/diseasesandconditions/f/FAQ_cryptorchid.htm

and:
http://www.askavetquestion.com/cryptorchidism.php


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

I am no expert on this, but, I don't think both not dropping by 9 weeks is all that uncommon. I never can find the damned things when the pups are young....but they all had them down by 3 to 3 1/2 mo. Kind of like young females come into heat whehn they come in. Dogs don't realize peoples need to compartmentalize everything and don't seem to care when we think things should happen.


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## Lynn Cheffins (Jul 11, 2006)

I wouldn't be too worried at 9 weeks - still lots of time for it to descend.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> I am no expert on this, but, I don't think both not dropping by 9 weeks is all that uncommon. I never can find the damned things when the pups are young....but they all had them down by 3 to 3 1/2 mo.


Yes, that's pretty close to what the link (above) said:

QUOTE: _Most normal puppies will have two testicles in the scrotum by 6 weeks of age. However, in some dogs it can take up to 4 months to appear. In rare cases, it will take up to 7 months. If one or both of the testicles are not in the scrotum by 7 months then it is extremely unlikely that it will appear.
_
from http://www.askavetquestion.com/cryptorchidism.php


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## Sarah ten Bensel (Mar 16, 2008)

I own a one-nutter. He will have the undescended testicle removed this year and the other one will just be left alone. No need to neuter but the undescended should eventually be taken out. Nine weeks is early.

My other dog is neutered--they can do protection work just fine. Remember female dogs also can compete and perform at high levels without balls.

I know of a GSD who was neutered due to prostate problems. He was a police K9. He returned to his job, no problems.


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> I am no expert on this, but, I don't think both not dropping by 9 weeks is all that uncommon. I never can find the damned things when the pups are young....but they all had them down by 3 to 3 1/2 mo. Kind of like young females come into heat whehn they come in. Dogs don't realize peoples need to compartmentalize everything and don't seem to care when we think things should happen.


I'm no expert either. I never felt around for a dog's balls in my life, ever. When they hang down the dog has balls. If they don't hang down, I bought a fuked up dog, period.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

There's many dogs with both testes that aren't great at bitework either. ;-) Pups should have both fully descended by 8 weeks. They'll be small, of course, but both should be down. What I have recommended for working dogs is if they are not down by 6 months to remove the errant testis at that time as it's easier surgery on the dog when they are younger. If there is any chance at all that you would sell or rehome the dog, I would vasectomize the "good" one at the same time just to make sure he can't breed, as this is a heritable trait.


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

What Maren said.

One of the things the breeder did when he sold me my pup was check for both testicles and show me they were there. It didn't even occur to me to check, the dog was intended as a pet and I planned to neuter him anyway. Turned out to be a nice dog and I probably shouldn't have snipped him, but it sure hasn't affected his drive or his ability to bite.


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

Lee H Sternberg said:


> I'm no expert either. I never felt around for a dog's balls in my life, ever. When they hang down the dog has balls. If they don't hang down, I bought a fuked up dog, period.


Are your dutch shepherds spayed/neutered?


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> There's many dogs with both testes that aren't great at bitework either. ;-) Pups should have both fully descended by 8 weeks. They'll be small, of course, but both should be down. What I have recommended for working dogs is if they are not down by 6 months to remove the errant testis at that time as it's easier surgery on the dog when they are younger. If there is any chance at all that you would sell or rehome the dog, I would vasectomize the "good" one at the same time just to make sure he can't breed, as this is a heritable trait.


Will do...I have another potential prospect that may be available for me to purchase around August will see what happens.


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Ben Thompson said:


> Are your dutch shepherds spayed/neutered?


No, I put up with all the BS every 6 months. I'm a gluten for punishment. At least for a while longer!!


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

Connie Sutherland said:


> I found this: http://vetmedicine.about.com/od/diseasesandconditions/f/FAQ_cryptorchid.htm
> 
> and:
> http://www.askavetquestion.com/cryptorchidism.php


Thanks for the links.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

all I can say is when I brought 5 males from this last litter in at 8 weeks, there were a couple males that the vet said that each had one nut that was not where it should be "ideally" at that age, got the co-owner all worked up and upset about it, and the nuts on those males are all fine. They dropped in at 3-4 months of age. 

Over the years I have had a few dogs that did not have both at that age (9 weeks), and all of them came in fine...I have also had a few dogs that he told me he was pretty sure that they were not going to come down, and with those, they did not come down...his guideline was 6 months..if they arent there, they probably are not coming, and they didnt.

And of course neutering needs to be done for that. Unless the vet said for sure there was a serious problem I would not really worry at this age.


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> all I can say is when I brought 5 males from this last litter in at 8 weeks, there were a couple males that the vet said that each had one nut that was not where it should be "ideally" at that age, got the co-owner all worked up and upset about it, and the nuts on those males are all fine. They dropped in at 3-4 months of age.
> 
> Over the years I have had a few dogs that did not have both at that age (9 weeks), and all of them came in fine...I have also had a few dogs that he told me he was pretty sure that they were not going to come down, and with those, they did not come down...his guideline was 6 months..if they arent there, they probably are not coming, and they didnt.
> 
> And of course neutering needs to be done for that. Unless the vet said for sure there was a serious problem I would not really worry at this age.


Interesting, did you still continue to train the dogs with only one testicle decended?


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

Lee H Sternberg said:


> No, I put up with all the BS every 6 months. I'm a gluten for punishment. At least for a while longer!!


 Haha I prefer male dogs myself. Puppies are tiring enough, having a female in heat on top of that is too much.O


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Ben Thompson said:


> Interesting, did you still continue to train the dogs with only one testicle decended?


as pups? sure, why not train them? 

the ones that did not drop by 6 months were all neutered, I did not keep them through adulthood..

I sort of mis-spoke in the last post..over the years where my vet told me that one was not "ideal" they all came down, the few that never came in, he pretty much was on the money and told me that they probably would not, if he had to bet on it.and they didnt.


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> as pups? sure, why not train them?
> 
> the ones that did not drop by 6 months were all neutered, I did not keep them through adulthood..
> 
> I sort of mis-spoke in the last post..over the years where my vet told me that one was not "ideal" they all came down, the few that never came in, he pretty much was on the money and told me that they probably would not, if he had to bet on it.and they didnt.


 My thinking is if they are culls why bother spending time training them? I'm not overly interested in neutered dogs.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Ben Thompson said:


> My thinking is if they are culls why bother spending time training them? I'm not overly interested in neutered dogs.


well that is one way to look at it. 

I put dogs down easier than most, but even I wouldnt put a dog down for having only one nut.. but that is just me, if that is what you meant by cull..

A dog that is neutered still needs some training, even if you aren't gonna keep it.

Most people train young, wasnt going to wait to see if the other nut dropped before starting...

No reason a neutered dog cant be trained in whatever, just because it is neutered. I didnt have interest in neutered dogs either, never kept one personally.


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## Sally Crunkleton (Jan 13, 2012)

Ben Thompson said:


> Oh she didn't say..... and I didn't know to ask. Its my first time encountering a one nutter. Neuterred dogs don't typically excell in bite work right?


I would say they can absolutely excel in bite work. Being neutered and having drive in my experience are not related. Both of my males were/are neutered and biting is the next best thing to steak for him.

If you don't ever plan to breed, I say why not do it. You can always wait to see if the other drops, but I promise, the dog will still bite....it didn't change a single thing about any dog I've ever had.


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

Sally Crunkleton said:


> I would say they can absolutely excel in bite work. Being neutered and having drive in my experience are not related. Both of my males were/are neutered and biting is the next best thing to steak for him.
> 
> If you don't ever plan to breed, I say why not do it. You can always wait to see if the other drops, but I promise, the dog will still bite....it didn't change a single thing about any dog I've ever had.


 I'll keep that in mind thanks.


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> well that is one way to look at it.
> 
> I put dogs down easier than most, but even I wouldnt put a dog down for having only one nut.. but that is just me, if that is what you meant by cull..
> 
> ...


 
Yeah now that I thnk about it I need the training too so it will be good practice. I don't think I would put a dog down for that either. Find him a new home or send him back to the breeder.


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

Sally Crunkleton said:


> I would say they can absolutely excel in bite work. Being neutered and having drive in my experience are not related. Both of my males were/are neutered and biting is the next best thing to steak for him.
> 
> If you don't ever plan to breed, I say why not do it. You can always wait to see if the other drops, but I promise, the dog will still bite....it didn't change a single thing about any dog I've ever had.


My neutered male has no problem biting either, but for many guys, having a dog without testicles makes their penis look smaller and they get all weird about it.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

leslie
re: "but for many guys, having a dog without testicles makes their penis look smaller and they get all weird about it."

don't know about the first part, but over the years i've only come across maybe 50-60 male owners that think neutering a male "degrades" and humiliates their dog 
- quadruple that figure if i counted the japanese male dog owners...it's universal with them ](*,)](*,)


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## Sally Crunkleton (Jan 13, 2012)

@ Leslie- I just spit my coffee! Nearly every man I is like that about their dogs....its like they think their balls and the dogs balls are connected! Lol!


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

Yes, it does seem to be very personal for some people.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

i'll give you a real example of how this can go

i used to see this yak (lots of missing fingers) guy walking his akita every day .. always a short lead, tight as hell and he always kept his dog from getting close to anyone
- dog probably had some heinz in it - WAY too big for an akita - massive head
- he saw me with dogs a lot and we would just make some eye contact when we passed by
- when i was by myself i would approach him cause i liked the dog and it was friendly as hell ... he would wave at me to stay back and give me the "it bites" action with his hand, but i really did wanna meet his dog 
- so one day i just kept moving in and told him it was ok if the dog bit me, but i didn't think it would...met the dog and it was happy as a clam, jumping all over me trying to get some scratches .. guy was humiliated cause his big akita didn't nail me  ... but from then on he would let me give it a some pats and scratches whenever i saw him, the dog would really light up when it saw me coming ... probably had never been petted by another human

*so one day i noticed a growth on one nut and mentioned it to him
- got bigger, obviously a tumor,,,guy said he would get it checked out
- couple weeks later looked like the the dog had three nuts :-(

- i don't like to tell people how to take care of their damn dog, but kinda gave him a hard time from then on ... 
- then the guy told me the vet said he needed to remove the nut and maybe both...so i asked when he was gonna do it

** the idiot said no way .. cause it would "ruin" his dog to lose his nuts ](*,)
-- that really blew me away...

- it got almost the size of a baseball ... then i stopped seeing the guy come around 
- maybe he just didn't want me to harass him any more and picked a different place ... my guess is the dog may have died

but that's the worst case i've ever seen


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

You wouldn't hire a body guard who is a eunuch and no king ever had a army of eunuchs to conquer a nation. He would be wiped out if that happened. Doesn't mean they are useless just not a warrior. How many dogs competing at national levels are neutered? How many in the KNPV are neutered? I'm guessing not many. At a club level its probably fine. I'm doing home/personal protection with this dog so....


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

So? 

Guess that means that the testicles are more important than the character of the dog to you. Can't change how you feel about that. I guess you'll have to dump him if it doesn't drop.


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## Amy Swaby (Jul 16, 2008)

Ben Thompson said:


> You wouldn't hire a body guard who is a eunuch and no king ever had a army of eunuchs to conquer a nation. He would be wiped out if that happened. Doesn't mean they are useless just not a warrior. How many dogs competing at national levels are neutered? How many in the KNPV are neutered? I'm guessing not many. At a club level its probably fine. I'm doing home/personal protection with this dog so....


A) yes I would what do you do strip your bodyguard before hand to check and make sure he has his balls? WTF

B) Eunuchs were often gaurds and sometimes warriors and i was pretty sure that was like basic history. 

"Yingzong was released from captivity, came back and regained his throne with the help of eunuchs in a palace coup. Thereafter the eunuchs became the uncontested power behind the throne."
http://www.warriortours.com/intro/history/ming/

Eunuch warriors in ages past were seen as a BOON because they were freed of the temptations of the flesh. Harem guards were always eunuchs as well so obviously it wasn't that big of an issue.

The term eunuch itself derives from words that mean bed-keeper, as their primary function was protection of kings wives and harems. So historically the primary function of a eunuch WAS a bodyguard.

Any many eunuchs have famously served as excellent fighters and strategists
http://asianhistory.about.com/od/china/p/zheng_he_bio.htm


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Maybe, since his situation it is not uncommon at all, Ben just doesn't want be stupid and neuter the dog if it isn't necessary. Doesn't really have anything to do with dick size. Dick size would have more to do with spelunking I would think.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Ben Thompson said:


> You wouldn't hire a body guard who is a eunuch and no king ever had a army of eunuchs to conquer a nation. He would be wiped out if that happened. Doesn't mean they are useless just not a warrior.


You obviously have never read A Game of Thrones. 



> How many dogs competing at national levels are neutered? How many in the KNPV are neutered? I'm guessing not many. At a club level its probably fine. I'm doing home/personal protection with this dog so....


They likely want the option of breeding the dog as well. My dog is neutered and he's not lacking in any drive to bite either. He was neutered just a little before we even started PSA just before 3 years old. I could never guarantee he'd protect my home until it actually happened since I don't train for that, but I don't think most people would try past the front door. Remember, it doesn't bother me if working dog people want to keep their working dog intact, but that doesn't mean the dog won't be a good worker if they are neutered.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

It would be interesting to know how people determine that their dogs haven't anything since they will never know what they would have been.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

9 weeks is a little early to be determining if the testicle will drop or not, unless the vet couldn't find it at all. Then again, I recently got a pup who I checked shortly after he arrived, yup, two testicles there. A month later was going through some paperwork and found his health certificate that came with him, the vet who issued the health certificate clearly wrote on it that at the time of exam, the pup was unilaterally cryptorchid. But just a few days later I found both with no problem. 

I would see if both can be felt, they just haven't descended into the sack yet. If they can, I wouldn't worry about it at all. If someone skilled in "location" (vet or otherwise) can find it half way up the side of his penis chances aren't good it will drop.

Whether you keep him or not is a personal decision, however I wouldn't rush out to neuter him either, not at this age. And if you are worried about his testosterone levels, you can always just have the retained one removed and keep the other one. I've known many neutered dogs who were very successful working dogs, when I first got into working dogs it was with a program that trained personal protection dogs, ALL our males were neutered. If they came to us intact one of the first things we did was neuter them. And some of them were very intense workers. I've also known neutered and cryptorchid/monorchid police dogs, and some sport dogs. 

Will you see them at the World level of competition, no. Not because they can't do the work, but because the rules say they can't play at that level. Same is true for some National level competitions. Because the sports are supposed to be a breeding test, and a neutered or cryptorchid/monorchid dog isn't exactly a breeding candidate, although cryptorchid/monorchiddogs can produce litters.

If I wanted a dog strictly for home protection I'd seriously consider a neutered male, simply because it would help lessen or even remove the desire to go breed, I'd rather my dog be focusing on the job of protecting my household than pursuing some bitch in heat leaving the front door wide open. I would wait to neuter until he was physically mature though.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> 9 weeks is a little early to be determining if the testicle will drop or not, unless the vet couldn't find it at all. Then again, I recently got a pup who I checked shortly after he arrived, yup, two testicles there. A month later was going through some paperwork and found his health certificate that came with him, the vet who issued the health certificate clearly wrote on it that at the time of exam, the pup was unilaterally cryptorchid. But just a few days later I found both with no problem.
> 
> I would see if both can be felt, they just haven't descended into the sack yet. If they can, I wouldn't worry about it at all. If someone skilled in "location" (vet or otherwise) can find it half way up the side of his penis chances aren't good it will drop.
> 
> ...


+1


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

maybe just a rehash of kadi's post but i had this draft saved, so i'll send it anyway 

-----------------------------

Ben ?????

i didn't think a nut check was a prerequisite to hire a bodyguard 

how about if the bodyguard had a vasectomy ? would that also be a Q on the interview ? would that take away his warrior spirit too // lol //

i'll take two wild asses guesses why most top level competing dogs have a pair of something that resembles nuts if checked ....
1. rules ?
2. future STUD fees maybe ???? kachiiing !!

and if an MWD or PSD had to have a nut removed would the agency then dump the dog cause it could no longer be a warrior ????

i know you wouldn't believe it Ben, but my little mutt acts like he's got some BIG balls ... but they are only in his head


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Don Turnipseed said:


> I am no expert on this, but, I don't think both not dropping by 9 weeks is all that uncommon. I never can find the damned things when the pups are young....but they all had them down by 3 to 3 1/2 mo. Kind of like young females come into heat whehn they come in. Dogs don't realize peoples need to compartmentalize everything and don't seem to care when we think things should happen.


 Don, I agree. By the time they finish teething, balls, build and bite better be there!

They should be able to feel it, it should drop, but if it doesn't by three or four months...operation my be in the furure.


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