# Cat Introductions



## Katie McLellan (Jul 22, 2008)

*Re: Introducing to a cat*

I realize this is an older post, but the topic is very relevant to me presently. I have 3 cats and now a 13 week old Malinois. Grimm is obsessed with the cats. If they are on the table/counter she is jumping non-stop, on the floor she walks practically on top of them all but inhaling the fur off their back. The cats are obviously unhappy, and I'm frustrated. I have tried physically blocking her attempts with my body and turning my back on her so as not to give her any attention for the behavior. However, this hasn't lessened to problem even a bit. I try to distract her with toys, balls, food, whatever with no result and it seems like if it worked it would be rewarding her for chasing the cats anyhow. Help? Sorry, I am new to this problem, at least at this level of intensity.

Kate

{Moderator Edit: Split into its own new post, vs. bringing back 2 year old threads from the dead  Thanks }


----------



## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

*Re: Introducing to a cat*

Well-timed physical corrections. I have a 4 month old that I haven't been able to break yet. The chasing, and the obsessive attention especially. I've physically and verbally corrected her, and all that's stopped is the biting (as long as I'm present, anyway). I could probably use a bolder/meaner cat, I lost my good one last year to a car.


----------



## Anna Kasho (Jan 16, 2008)

When I had a pup loose at home, everyone else (birds, cats, etc) were caged. No problems that way.
When I was working with puppies on socialising with the rest ofthe critters, I had them on leash so I could physically redirect and prevent this sort of thing before it really set in. It also worked for squirrels, birds, whatever, on walks. My mals may stop/slow and stare, but don't have the habit of chasing critters. Candy is allowed to hunt anything in the backyard, but not anything that is part of the family at home, and she knows the difference. Inka, the older rescue, needed to learn that "No! Leave it!" was not an optional command - reinforced with some hard corrections. I will still "claim" my cats/critters and correct the other dogs for undue interest, but it's much easier with them, because they don't have that habit. And I don't leave them together unsupervised...

My best cat was a very bold, calm one, that knew how to be polite and avoid triggering the dog's interest. Nobody had problems with her, ever. My mean nasty little cat is suicidal, because he'll actually pick fights with the dogs, and while that maybe might work with puppies, I'm afraid the older dogs would just get pissed off and eat him...


----------



## Lyn Chen (Jun 19, 2006)

I wonder, do our dogs think cats as prey or sheep? Mine seem to think the cat's a sheep. They herd him around, or hold him at bay, and even when biting him never really hurt him. The good thing is the cat likes the attention and actually grooms the dogs...

The one thing I know is, even if you manage to get the dogs to respect the cat, if the cat doesn't like them, there's nothing you can do. I had one who decided it was easier to live at the neighbors than have to deal with all my dogs.


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

I have a four year PREY driven bouv. From the time she was 7 weeks old she was stalking the cat. My cat has no fear and won't run but it doesn't make a difference. I basically trained the "leave it" command off the cat. Khira had a long line attached. For turning her head away from the cat, she would get a treat. I figure the most I've been able to do is build bite inhibition. She won't open chase but will follow her around if I"m not watching. She'll lay in a room where the cat is also laying in the floor. HOWEVER, she has destroyed two crates because she HATES for the cat to walk past the front of her crate. She comes straight through them head on. One of the crates was Central Metal which I considered the strongest. What's funny is that she doesn't even come out of the crate, but looks at the door and front of it lying out on the floor in front of her with the expression, "how did that get there." Starting about Age 2, she was loose in the house with the cat loose also. I don't dare leave her loose while I'm gone with the cat. However, that said, I've called home and my son informed me that he had Khira and the cat on the bed with him and they were fine. I told him he had more faith in my training than I did.

Terrasita


----------



## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

There's three basic variables at play: the age, drives and perception of the dog, the reaction/instigation of the cat, and the level and manner in which the handler addresses the situation. This keeps it all interesting, as no single answer is "correct" for every situation. In the situation above, I'm happy that the 4 month old isn't eating the cat, and don't want to overdo it, and displace the drive because the dog feels it's "incorrect" behavior. Nearly got herself killed chasing horses last week, though. In this instance, I feel it best to just keep them separated for the most part.


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Yep if I had it to do over and I was going to do bite work training, I would give the dog something else to channel his drive through. Read something awhile back where a guy would redirect the dog to his tug every time he would fixate on the cat. Over time, the dog became less cat fixated and looked to his handler/tug to satisfy the drive. Khira's other prey thrill is my duck pen, so I tried it one day. I went out with a tug and she hit it with gusto, circling with it on her own and back to me to re-engage. The cat is my son's pet and I know that Khira has the complete sequence--i.e. including kill, so I really had to instill cat is off limits. I know the cat does push her buttons. 

Terrasita


----------



## Katie McLellan (Jul 22, 2008)

I decided to try someone else's suggestion of keeping her on leash in the house for a week or two. While it hasn't impacted her cat obsession, it has helped with a lot of other issues that I suspect were related to dominance. On the upside, it does keep her from chasing the cats before I can get there first. I do my best to redirect her. When I see her fixed stare on one of the cats, I get out one of her toys and play with her. It seems to work about 60% of the time, and when it doesn't I have been taking her to a different room and playing with her there.

We'll see how things look in a couple more days.


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Katie, JMHO but getting out a toy when you see the dog giving a direct stare is just rewarding that stare. 
The second the dog even looks in the cat's direction is when you need to stop it. 
I'm a motivational trainer on the field but this can be a dangerous situation for you, the cat and the dog. Correct for even looking towards the cat! Don't let it escalate any further. It's a manners issue not a training issue.


----------



## Katie McLellan (Jul 22, 2008)

"getting out a toy when you see the dog giving a direct stare is just rewarding that stare. "

Bob, I entirely agree with you, but am not sure of how to correct this. What is an appropriate correction for a puppy?

Kate


----------



## Rachel R Phelan (May 26, 2008)

Hi Kate! 

We have a 4 1/2 month old Dutch Shepherd and 2 cats. Something that has seemingly worked for us is using the leash and "leave it" command, in a controlled situation. So when the cats are released from the basement, Nico is on a 6' lead. He is given the opportunity to approach or ignore the cats. If he chooses to approach, he was initially given a leash correction with a simultaneous "leave it" followed by a treat. The next stage of this was simply giving the leave it command without the leash correction and then a treat upon compliance. After that when the cats would come up and Nico saw them, he would ignore them and immediately turn to me for a treat/good boy. Now he will lay on the floor with his bone or bad cuz with the cats out and will pretty much ignore them, unless of course they are causing havoc, at which point he tries to defuse the situation by herding/barking at them. Which of course does not defuse the situation, but makes him feel better I think!!  

Just my 2 cents - Have a great day!


----------



## Lyn Chen (Jun 19, 2006)

Appropriate correction for a pup? Look at what mother dog might do. A quick, sharp one that's strong enough to get his attention. More shock than anything. In cases like aggression, I wouldn't hesitate at all. Half-hearted nagging will only tell your pup you're not a capable leader, and may even lead to other complications later on.

Show the pup the cat is yours, and demand he respect your property. This is easy--dogs recognize property. Dogs also recognize rules. Don't dawdle, show the pup what you mean as clear as you can.


----------



## Katie McLellan (Jul 22, 2008)

What I do when she chases, or eyes, the cat is to say "no" loudly and pop the leash. I started gently, but now give it a good jerk. There is absolutely no change in her focus in response to this. At this point, I drag her away by the leash without saying anything further. Am I doing this all wrong?


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

How old is she and what breed. Is she running the house and can get outside your control [i.e. hands on leash]. I started with Khira as a 7 week old puppy. She would stalk up and lock in with the predatory stare. Not turning her head away from the cat was not an option. I would walk her away and praise her. Like the other poster, eventually, she could run loose and ignore the cat. I have also noticed that the more I'm involved with her around the house which includes engaging her in some sort of drive work, the less focus there was on the cat. My GSDs have always taken the mindset that the cat like anything else I brought home was to be respected and guarded--which is why they could be loose with livestock. Khira's prey drive takes over. She's different. 

You mentioned dominance. Are you doing obedience work with her?

Terrasita


----------



## Katie McLellan (Jul 22, 2008)

"How old is she and what breed."
Grimm is a 13 week old Malinois puppy. 

"Is she running the house and can get outside your control [i.e. hands on leash]."
I have her on a 6' leash with one end in my hand at all times. When she seems like she has a lot of energy, I take her outside and we go for a walk, or throw the tennis ball around for a while. Otherwise, I will throw her toys around inside for her. 

I feel awful because I am just don't know the best way to deal. This evening she would not stop lunging at them. I had the leash in my hand and said 'No' and jerked the leash. Immediately she went back to the same behavior. I repeated this over and over and over. We walked away, but anytime the cat was in sight even from another room, the sequence repeated itself. I eventually pulled her back by her scruff and felt completely terrible for reacting that way. It was pure frustration on my part and I'm sure didn't help her trust of me as any sort of leader. Although, again, it made absolutely zero change in her behavior. 

We have been working on some obedience stuff. We are working on sit, recall, and leave it. I'm hoping that eventually leave it can apply to the cats. Earlier in the evening, I had my boyfriend sit and brush the cat while I worked on some obedience stuff with Grimm in the same room. This seemed to go ok and she paid attention to me, not the cat. Maybe I just need to keep having her on leash 24/7 and working on the leave it stuff. I just wish that a simple leash pop would divert her attention long enough to have her follow me away from the cat. It's so discouraging to see no improvement.

Thanks for letting me vent here.
Kate


----------



## Kameron Bean (Jun 23, 2008)

Bodo, my older dog, never gave more than a sniff in the direction of the cat. When I brought Bart home as a puppy - he was obsessed with the cat, and my cat is an 18 yr old deaf, senile, cancer-riddled thing and stresses. He needed to be left alone. I took the advice of Ann - and followed the "tupperware from heaven" correction method. I kept random stacks of tupperware handy (mainly by the back door, since the cat was often on the couch and that's where the stalking/harrasment took place) and any time Bart went after Bullet (the cat) - lo and behold - tupperware came raining down on him. It only took two or three times, and Bart was leaving Bullet alone. Now they coexist quite well. I hope this transfers on to the new cat(s) I'll be getting this weekend, but at least they'll have front claws and are younger, so maybe they'll defend themselves better. Oh, and Bart seems to have no ill-effects from the 'tupperware from heaven' - he's not afraid of tupperware or anything...


----------



## Anna Kasho (Jan 16, 2008)

Katie McLellan said:


> I feel awful because I am just don't know the best way to deal. This evening she would not stop lunging at them. I had the leash in my hand and said 'No' and jerked the leash. Immediately she went back to the same behavior. I repeated this over and over and over. We walked away, but anytime the cat was in sight even from another room, the sequence repeated itself. I eventually pulled her back by her scruff and felt completely terrible for reacting that way. It was pure frustration on my part and I'm sure didn't help her trust of me as any sort of leader. Although, again, it made absolutely zero change in her behavior.


You have a damn nice working puppy there. This is a GOOD thing. :twisted: 



Katie McLellan said:


> We have been working on some obedience stuff. We are working on sit, recall, and leave it. I'm hoping that eventually leave it can apply to the cats. Earlier in the evening, I had my boyfriend sit and brush the cat while I worked on some obedience stuff with Grimm in the same room. This seemed to go ok and she paid attention to me, not the cat. Maybe I just need to keep having her on leash 24/7 and working on the leave it stuff. I just wish that a simple leash pop would divert her attention long enough to have her follow me away from the cat. It's so discouraging to see no improvement.


You've got it. And you don't see it.

Walking away after you is nowhere near as fun as chasing the cat. Sorry mom, you are old news. After you pop the leash and get her attentuion, what can you offer that's MORE fun than the cat?

What have you got during obedience that's better than the cat?

\\/ Whatever it is, pull it out and throw a party, right before she starts eyeballing the cat, or, when you've got her attention away from the cat for a split second. And repeat, and repeat, untill you establish a new habit. Or until your puppy finally grows up. Whichever is first.:-D 

I think every owner of a crazy mal puppy has experienced this behavior in some way or another. And, aggravating as it is, believe me you'll miss it when your puppy is all grown up and well behaved. At least, I do...


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Dragging the dog away will only create an opposition reflex. The dog pulls, you pull harder, the dog resists, etc, etc. 
Try scruffing the pup. Just the front feet off the ground at first. If that doesn't do it, raise it all four off the ground. DO NOT set it down till it relaxes (says uncle). If you set it down before it relaxes, the pup won!
Use the umbilical method to keep the dog under constant watch. Keep it on a leash and keep the leash around your waist. If at all possible stop the dog as soon as it eyes the cat. Don't let it escalate before you correct or it's intensity will make it easier to ignor any correction.


----------



## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

Here's a real torture test: I had one very dominant dog, that I postured into a semi-submissive position on it's side, while I stroked the cat showing my fondness for it, as it walked back and forth over the dog. When the dog finally relaxed some, I released some of the pressure holding it down. Deep down of course, it still wanted the cat, but even a soft-spoken reminder never resulted in more than a grumble of complaint from the dog.


----------



## Michele McAtee (Apr 10, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> Dragging the dog away will only create an opposition reflex. The dog pulls, you pull harder, the dog resists, etc, etc.
> Try scruffing the pup. Just the front feet off the ground at first. If that doesn't do it, raise it all four off the ground. DO NOT set it down till it relaxes (says uncle). If you set it down before it relaxes, the pup won!


I agree with what Bob has written here. Pups can put up quite a fight and it sounds like yours has got a bit of spunk ?!  Perservere thru the scruff and then on to happy ob when you have the pup's focus.

Try taking the dog out for a walk, get him good and tired. Then some marker/ob stuff. So long as your markers/ob are going really well without the distraction of the cat(s) then try markers and ob with the cat present. The minute (like others have said) the pup looks at the cats, in calm (no frustration) matter of fact assertive NO in low voice with scruff on cheeks or neck scruff, hold until dog relaxes. YOUR cats not his. 

A "little" win now for the pup can be a big one later. Even though it is hard and frusterating, change your attitude. Clear, concise no nonsense. YOUR cats PERIOD. 

(I hope this at least SOUNDs convincing, as I am going thru puppy cat introduction now!!!! My cat is a very dog saavy cat though and I really pity this pup if he does not choose to listen to me!!!--even though he is tethered to me, look away for a second, right????!!!! Oh, but that would be another topic, timing, huh? ;0)


----------



## Katie McLellan (Jul 22, 2008)

Hmm...maybe I've just been correcting her half way. I have tried holding by her "cheeks" and saying No, but I let go as soon as I have said it. Maybe I need to keep holding her like that until she breaks her stare. Should I praise her at the point, or just walk away with her?

I love the "tupperware from heaven" idea. lol. I don't think it would work with Grimm because nothing breaks this gal's focus (oddly enough, the entire reason I liked her so much.). However, it's a concept that would work like a charm with my collie...if he was ever motivated to get into trouble. I can just imagine his expression.


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Well, I don't know how tough this puppy is but tupperware from heaven would never work for my bouv even as a seven week old. That's kinda one of my puppy tests and she didn't flinch. At one point the xpen fell over the day I went to evaluate the litter--didn't bat an eye. I see it as a relationship issue and a handler that isn't confident with the level of drive and tenacity that the pup is displaying and puppy knows it. As for the scruff shake, that wouldn't have phased the bouv either. She would have probably maintained the stare while I was shaking her. I'm more into Ann Kasho's idea. I have this picture of her leash popping and doggie not even noticing because she is in another world. Sounds like a bouv. In drive, they feel nothing and once they make up their mind about something, nothing short of death or cruelty is going to get them to budge. If its 13 weeks old and attached to me and I decide I'm going one direction and its facing another, it will have no choice but to go my way. Getting the dog away from the cat as she moves, helps break the hypnotic trance that she's in and allows her to get in the dog's picture. Once her head is diverted, you become more attractive than the cat with food, toy, whatever. But for sure, if you say no, or leave it, pup has no choice but to turn its head away from the cat. Otherwise, its just a bunch of naggy corrections and she learns to ignore you. You have to exude confidence and direction from within. So, as I say leave it, away I go in the opposite direction and the second the dog orients to me, its cookie time and praise. Its like Jekyll/Hyde with firm on the leave it and change deameanor for happy praise and treat. Thereafter, I might put it in its crate but I would not allow it to re-engage with the cat. You might want to start some of the attention training so you can work up to asking for it when the cat is around. With a baby puppy, again its time building reliability.

I'll also say that it doesn't happen overnight. It took TIME. I like the idea of obedience session with the cat present and teaching her to orient to you even when the cat is around. I still do that with the bouv. My cat can be anywhere hidden in a 3-story house but guaranteed she appears to lay out in the floor the minute I decide to get a dog out and work on obedience. 


Terrasita


----------



## Katie McLellan (Jul 22, 2008)

You're right that the scruff shake doesn't phase her either. She just looks at me, might eventually sit, but is still zeroed in on the cat. I also think you're right that I just need to be confident about it, say leave it and walk her away without missing a beat. I'm going to keep working the obedience on a nightly basis with the cat watching. I've also starting using that one when people walk by us as we're out for a walk. 

Kate


----------

