# Building a training facility on vacant land



## Dana McMahan (Apr 5, 2006)

I know several members on here have some pretty elaborate set ups for their kennels and training.

My husband and I are looking to buy a piece of property at the end of next year. We would like to have 1 acre, maybe more, which in our area of Orange County tends to be VERY expensive with an existing house on it.

We are looking on the outskirts of Orange County, in an unincorporated city, and are finding pieces of vacant land with several acre parcels available at a reasonable price. We are thinking of getting a piece of land, and dropping a modular/manufactured home on it, and over time adding kennels and a real training field.

I am doing a lot of research on permit cost and running utilities so right now I am just curious if anyone has done this with their own properties and what some of the cost were to get it set up properly. We are not looking to do a large kennel facility, maybe runs for 5-10 dogs. The main goal would be having a decent size training field to set up a club and events.

Anyways, if anyone has built their facility on vacant land and knows any of the cost associated, please post or PM as I'd love more information on the process.


----------



## Erica Boling (Jun 17, 2008)

I would be interested in hearing more about this too... I've seen some small vacant lots near my home and have wondered what it would take to purchase a lot and turn it into a space for training.


----------



## Jessica Kromer (Nov 12, 2009)

Erica Boling said:


> I've seen some small vacant lots near my home and have wondered what it would take to purchase a lot and turn it into a space for training.



A lot of money...

Most backs are not doing construction loans anymore (typical when you are buying land and building a house, even a modular). WAAAYYY too risky. So expect to have well over 30% down (probably more, but credit and assets dependent, and 50% is not atypical) and either have already bought the modular or have the ability to do so after the loan for the land. Most banks are not willing to touch it, and if they do, it has to be collateralized. Besides all that, for a lot loan a lender will want the lot developed within two years and will want to see that all of your leg work has been done, with everything for permits to blue prints, so that the project will be completed within that two year time time limit.

There are hard money lenders out there that will do it (and will want the buyer to have already your two year plan in place) but will charge you an arm and a leg in interest. Hard money lenders are really best used for very short term loans.

I have a listing here on the coast, 40 acres and totally off the grid with windmills, solar panels, generators and wells. Has a nice, big modular on it (but was put there w/o permits, so is being sold at land value only) and is almost all usable land (not cliffs or arid). Priced at $300,000. No bank will fund it as land...... We can only take a cash offer (or seller financed with a huge down and credit)....


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Look into zoning issues before you leap!


----------



## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Thanks for that Bob as that's what I was thinking. Some areas can be zoned as Ag and some Business, if it is Residental then you might see a very limited use for the land...like daycare folks face!


----------



## Daniel Lybbert (Nov 23, 2010)

You can do it quite cheap I think. I have a ring field in my back yard. The most expensive part was the time I spent on it. If you have a tractor it wont cost more than the fuel. Spend lots of time getting the ground flat and level then plant nice grass put up 6 plywood blinds and a page wire fence a little 3 sided leanto to keep stuff in and get out of the weather. I think a person could do it for around 2000-3000 bucks. I think thats what mine cost me.


----------



## Skip Morgart (Dec 19, 2008)

When I bought vacant land (years ago), banks would not finance any building projects on it until the land was completely paid for.


----------



## Laura Bollschweiler (Apr 25, 2008)

Other than what others have already mentioned, I wanted to point out that I can only think of one "homegrown" training field that has really good lighting. Others are adequate, decent, workable, but not really good. I'm not only thinking about SchH fields, but agility fields as well. 

I was on the board of our local obedience club when we built our new field in Escondido. Even with a lot of donations of materials and labor, it still cost a bundle to make a flat piece of land into a flat piece of land that was acceptable to the city and to the neighbors. One of the biggest hurdles we faced was the neighbors and our bright lights. That's why it's the first thing I think of.

Good luck with your venture!

Laura


----------



## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

The way our ecomony is going, I doubt many banks will lend money without a large down payment, 25% or more! Maybe the smaller, home town banks will do it. If it's something you really want to do...I would go for it.


----------



## Donna DeYoung (Jan 29, 2010)

it always costs more than you think its going to.

I was lucky and had enough down to buy existing house/barn and acreage. Then an additional 10 acres, adjoining, became available a few yrs later. I re-financed and the bank let me roll the additional 10 acres into my existing loan (only because it was adjoining). Still was not easy because by then the housing market had declined and I had to come up with still MORE down payment because of my appraisal not being high enough.

now I have 20 acres and I can't afford to permanently fence it all  I guess thats a good problem to have.

running utilities will probably be your biggest expense. fencing if needed. don't forget driveways.
D


----------



## Dana McMahan (Apr 5, 2006)

Right now the houses we are finding with acreage in the area are going for $800,000+. Its all agricultural zoned and your nearest neighbor is a few acres away.There is a property with 3.5 acres, with 1 acre flat, utilities at the street for around $200,000. It all flanks National Forest so there aren't a whole lot of neighbors. From what I can tell driving around, a lot of the properties are equestrian or farming and the equestrian all have lit arenas so there must not be many complaints for lighting. We still have a lot of checking with the city to do first of course. I've seen a couple websites describe the process, but I'm not really sure what step 1 would be. Getitng a loan, finding the land, etc.


----------



## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Now I know why I never moved to California. You can buy a 100's of acres in Colorado for what you guys pay for 3 :-(


----------



## Mario Fernandez (Jun 21, 2008)

My buddy bought 5 acres parcel, was an Orchard 185k in Hollister, CA. Its been a year, slowly but surly he has been getting the property in order. Next year should be up an and running. Wants to have a small boarding kennel and put a full length mutli-use field to rent out for Sch , FR, Confirmation, Agility. Property has a well and utilities. Needs to update the septic. Looking for a modular home to put on, but has come across that some of the Metal building companies are very cheap and some companies will finance you.

Take a look at some of the companies...


----------



## Skip Morgart (Dec 19, 2008)

Is moving to another location an option where the land is cheaper? Not trying to stick my nose in your business, but if it's feasible, I'd move if I wanted some decent acreage, in a fairly decent area.


----------



## julie allen (Dec 24, 2010)

Wow, I have a farm I'll sell you in Tennessee! No restrictions, zoning, or worrying about having lights on late.


----------



## Jessica Kromer (Nov 12, 2009)

Dana McMahan said:


> Right now the houses we are finding with acreage in the area are going for $800,000+. Its all agricultural zoned and your nearest neighbor is a few acres away.There is a property with 3.5 acres, with 1 acre flat, utilities at the street for around $200,000. It all flanks National Forest so there aren't a whole lot of neighbors. From what I can tell driving around, a lot of the properties are equestrian or farming and the equestrian all have lit arenas so there must not be many complaints for lighting. We still have a lot of checking with the city to do first of course. I've seen a couple websites describe the process, but I'm not really sure what step 1 would be. Getitng a loan, finding the land, etc.


One flat acre is not gonna be as much as you think if you are wanting to put a home and a full training field. How "un-flat" is the rest of it? If all three acres were usable, or at least pretty usable, it sounds like it would be great!

First thing you need to do is go talk to a lender. If you are not qualified, then they can also tell you what you need to do to get there and what the process will be. 

If you are a member of a Credit Union (or could be...) they often have some of the best rates and options (land loans). Also a private lender that is not affiliated with one bank can get loans from multiple places and can often have options that no one else will. They broker the loans out to others, like an insurance broker.... Most of the big banks (Rabo, Chase, BofA....) won't do a land loan anymore.

It should be free to get a consult and they will tell you how much you will need down (lots) and what their expectations would be (conditions of the loan like build in two years or what ever). From there, if you qualify, talk to a Realtor. Your lender may have a lender that they work well with or who they know does/did a lot of land loans. If you want find a Realtor first, ask around and see if there is one that specializes in land (I know of some guys around here, and they may know people down there). If you call a brokerage, ask to speak to the manager and have them refer you to their land expert. Then verify that they have in fact done quite a few land deals. ORRRR Drive around in the area that you are interested (or any acerage-y neighborhood) and see who has multiple signs up; they will be the most informed about that area....

Hope that helps!


----------



## Melissa Thom (Jun 21, 2011)

Dana McMahan said:


> I am doing a lot of research on permit cost and running utilities so right now I am just curious if anyone has done this with their own properties and what some of the cost were to get it set up properly. We are not looking to do a large kennel facility, maybe runs for 5-10 dogs. The main goal would be having a decent size training field to set up a club and events.
> 
> Anyways, if anyone has built their facility on vacant land and knows any of the cost associated, please post or PM as I'd love more information on the process.


I don't know about California but I do know a bit about doing this in Washington. The cost is pretty extensive. 

The place I worked last year was a 14 run boarding kennel with a 2 acre private dog park. The entire grounds were 10 acres. Total cost without adding in the building, land, or the fencing was $140K.

First off depending on the area there are special waste disposal rules for animals. We were required to put in a separate septic system for the kennels in addition to digging a different well for the facility. 

For public access we were also required to put in a public restroom, a special filter for the water system, handicap access, different fencing, a parking lot, a waste disposal plan with the county for the field, noise control, etc etc. You get the idea. We were also required to publicly post our land development plan for 6 months for public feedback. 

If we wanted to host events special permits were required - depending on the numbers of people we would have had to bring in more public facilities (porta cans), and any concessions bigger than a vending machine or coffee pot would require further inspections and permitting.


----------



## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

julie allen said:


> Wow, I have a farm I'll sell you in Tennessee! No restrictions, zoning, or worrying about having lights on late.


Ooh, where in Tennessee? :grin:


----------



## Steve Estrada (Mar 6, 2011)

I think O.C. Is too expensive for most of us! The Ortega Hwy. Is dangerous, not to mention the fire risk, much of it is in Riverside so you must have one acre to qualify as a kennel. Water there is another issue as it's getting scarce. I've been looking forever & know the area likely better than most. As was mentioned, no bank will finance bare land so you must have a complete proposal to get money..
I wish you the best, PM if you'd like to talk I can offer some info. Especially if I could train closer to home.


----------



## john axe (Sep 24, 2011)

i agree with Bob Scott about zoning, check and double check. i'm going through an issue right now over property that was used for commercial housing. i using it for independent senior living ,was approved by the board, now a few years later a council member thinks he found a loophole i'll win but it's still a hassle good luck


----------



## julie allen (Dec 24, 2010)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Ooh, where in Tennessee? :grin:


West Tn, Mckenzie. 15 acres, barn, fenced, cape cod 3bd/2 ba lol

Or 5 acres with barn, fenced with 2 bd/ 2ba, take your pick! lol


----------



## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Oh bummer...I need east Tennessee (well, in a few years). Sounds lovely though!


----------



## Laura Bollschweiler (Apr 25, 2008)

Dana, have you checked on cost and availability of a kennel license? I thought it was really hard to get new ones and very expensive. One of the owners of a large training facility in Yorba Linda (yeah, like you can't figure that out) was looking to do something like you're talking about and after researching it decided the easiest way about it was to buy property that had a license with it. This was a few years ago though. Surprisingly enough she did find some.

Laura


----------



## Donna DeYoung (Jan 29, 2010)

Melissa, was that facility within city limits? it sounds like alot of restrictions. my county doesn't have any 

also, when looking at ag/horse land find out what the taxes are. my land, except for 1 acre, is all ag exempt and I'm able to keep it that way because of horse breeding business. otherwise taxes would be $$$. 

And in some states, like Oregon, you have to pay back taxes to convert from ag.

For lighting, there are new ways of lighting that do not cause as much light pollution/ some cities are now requiring them on city projects. 

There is a good book for reference called "Finding and Buying Your Home in the Country" that has alot of basics.


----------



## Jon Harris (Nov 23, 2011)

I will be also building a kennel/training facility when I return home.
Reading all the details about permits,licenses,plans posted,inspections sounds like a nightmare.
Where i live in Texas we don't go through any of that. I currently own ( well me and the bank own) 122 acres that we have our paintball field on. I will be devoting 20 acres to the kennel facility and have the rest available for trailing and searches. It won't interfere with the paintball - tactical training business we have now.

Ive already put in a shooting range, have a vehicle search ares with 25 cars, trucks, trailers. I have buildings that Ill turn into box and training rooms. I will have to build the kennels and Ill be doing that in accordance to Army reg 109-12. BTW that is available online free and has all the drawings for the kennel as well as the OB course construction.


----------



## Jon Harris (Nov 23, 2011)

missed the editing window 

that reg is 
AR 190-12 

I transposed the numbers on the original post


----------



## Dana McMahan (Apr 5, 2006)

Kennel licenses are possible, they just have really ridiculous restrictions about being near other residential dwellings (I think they have to be 1 mile away from any residential) and a lot of other specifications. I'm currently managing a kennel facility thats located on a rare street of kennels in Newport.... I think our facility is the cheapest on the street for sale at 1.5 million. So yeah, buying WITH a permit is not exactly affordable. A lot of facilities (camp bow wow, etc) are opting to move into giant warehouses in industrial areas in order to get their permits but thats not exactly affordable or sanitary and doens't allow for a training facility. I know of one trainer who is renting warehouse space in Yorba Linda but the area is too small to do much more than small group classes and comes at a high monthly rent. 

Down the street from us, they put in a new doggie daycare into an old nursery and were able to get it permitted because there were no neighbors nearby. I think the area I'm looking at should be okay since its unincorporated and again, you are pretty remote and far from any neighbors. Plus I'm not looking for a huge amount of dogs. I only have 5 of my own and don't plan to take very many on for training at a time. 

This is a cool website I found with a bunch of quotes on getting land ready for a modular:

http://modularhomechoice.com/

Right now the quotes we are getting are ...

$150-250,000 for land
$25-50,000 to hook up utilities depending how far they are from the street
$10-50,000 to install septic depending on bed rock, etc
$2-3,000 work of soil test, bio reports, perc, etc 
$500-1500 for tree removal, clearing land, etc if we do work ourselves
$50,000-150,000 for modular depending on quality, size, etc


The cheapest house I've seen in the area WITH land, was listed at $599,000 and it wasn't large enough for what we wanted. So as long as the quotes come in under that ball park, we are still going to save money by going with vacant land over an existing home. 

Moving isn't an option as we both have jobs that keep us tied in Orange County. We are going to meet with a credit union to see whether the loan is even a possibility since they seem hard to get. Thanks so much for all the responses so far.


----------



## Laura Bollschweiler (Apr 25, 2008)

Isn't daycare a different license from overnight boarding? 

Laura


----------



## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

http://www.kennelsandhorsefarms.com/listings.php you can check this out amongst other sites on google to check out places, but I will say this in the same sentence as posting this site is the last thing we need is another working / breeding facility, like we need a hole in the head so please dont be doing dogs for 5 years and have handle two dogs in a career and think you are capable of such a task, because it takes sense more than money to do it right, good luck to all that are considering and hopely considering for the right reason


----------



## Dana McMahan (Apr 5, 2006)

I don't think daycare is any different but the place down the street offers overnight care too so I'm sure they got a kennel permit. 

Thanks for the advice (I think) Harry but one thing Southern California desperately needs is more places to train dogs. There are not enough facilities with decent training fields, at a reasonable rate, within a reasonable driving distance. In orange county right now I can think of 3 training fields for schutzhund. Otherwise your making a 2 hour drive each way to San Diego area, Riverside (30 minutes without traffic, 2 hours with traffic), LA, etc. I don't know of any in South Orange County, and only a handful in other areas. I started dogs in 1997 and only had one litter out of a dog I trained/titled myself, so I'm not really interested in a breeding facility or trying to make quick money that route. Honestly my personal motivation is to have a place to train my own dogs, and to offer to other people to host seminars/trials, prepare for big events etc.


----------



## Melissa Thom (Jun 21, 2011)

Donna DeYoung said:


> Melissa, was that facility within city limits? it sounds like alot of restrictions. my county doesn't have any


No it was not within city limits but it was originally zoned residential and it had to be changed. That wasn't a difficult process. The water/waste/greywater system that was the killer.

BTW with most counties forgiveness is not cheaper than permission. What I would recommend doing is once you have a piece of property scouted out to go in and talk to the code enforcement guy with the county and ask what exactly do you need to implement your plan for the property. Get it in writing ~


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Donna DeYoung said:


> Melissa, was that facility within city limits? it sounds like alot of restrictions. my county doesn't have any


I WOULD NOT bet on this to be fact..

DIG DIG and DIG....you WILL find restrictions..


shit around here is subjective, no real firm answers, until they determine YOU are wrong....after you built it...then you are fukked...


----------

