# Question for the guns guys (eg Suttle)



## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

I was wondering if someone knew if there was much difference in accuracy of typical miliary and police sniper rifles, and high quality hunting rifles? Does it all come down to MOA numbers? Because I see that alot of typical varmit hunting rifles like Sako and even Howa, show as good or better MOA numbers than alot of military and police sniper rifles?
I also hear that alot of miltary sniper rifles are just using Remmington 700 barrels for instance.
Im not taking scopes into account.


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## James Furey (Jul 27, 2010)

Accuracy is going to come from the person behind the trigger. There are relativity few people who can actually reap the benefits of ultra custom rifles. For all intents and purposes the Remington "5R" barrel can do anything a lilja, krieger, etc, can with a well set up rifle and knowledgeable person behind the trigger.

Hope that helps.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Most military and LE sniper rifles are more than accurate enough to get the job done with a good shooter behind the trigger.
Ammo is perhaps the most important factor when trying to reduce group size. Every rifle will like a different type of ammo better than the next type.
I have seen 1 MOA guns shoot 2 MOA groups with some ammo and 1/4 MOA groups with the same shooter, same optics, same conditions, but another type of ammo.
The truth is that most custom rifle smiths can build more accurate guns than most of the current military and LE rifles.
Most of the high end bolt guns are built on a M 700 platform of some sort. Even the super high end bench gus have custom actions that are designed after the M 700.
Forum member James Mackey is the resident expert on performance bench guns, hopefully he will contribute here.


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Like Mike said....load, and/or load development is a big factor. Trigger set up, barrel bedding, shooting conditions, shooter skill, sights/optics, the guns' action and a whole host of other variables determine a rifles' accuracy. Bench rest and competition shooters have it figured out for the most part so thier input would be the most useful. Certain calibers and bullets make a huge difference as well.


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## james mackey (Mar 28, 2009)

I am humbled by Mike's assessment.....truth is, he has many more trophies on his gun room wall than I do.:lol::lol: But, I will do my best!

I would agree with the previous posts. But, tactical accuracy and benchrest accuracy are two different things. I have plain Jane Remington tactical rifles as well as full custom rigs. I have shot many thousands of rounds of different kinds of ammo. I load my own ammo, as does Mike. That is the only way to insure consistency. Also, bullet and powder combinations are infinitely adjustable.

The rifle is an investment, a good rifle will last many tens of THOUSANDS of rounds (depending on caliber). The barrel is a consumable. The system includes the shooter, ammo, rifle, optics, etc. I would say that for me, the biggest performance gains were by learning to read the wind (using wind flags) and by loading the ammo to the gun. Also, in a tactical situation, learning to use a bipod to gain a rock solid support system would be important as well.

I would plan to buy whatever rifle that you want, and plan to rebarrel when you can perform better than your setup. Hart Rifle Barrels builds custom or semi-custom rifles that are suitable for government types that guard important people. I would consider them for the rebarrel.

http://www.hartbarrels.com/


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## James Furey (Jul 27, 2010)

Another option that I have personally had great success with is Surgeon Rifles, not cheap by any means but you WILL get your moneys worth. They speak in tolerances that most dont have the tools to measure. www.surgeonrifles.com


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Since we are speaking of accuracy and custom rifles, I have to bring up a flip side. For years. Savages low end 110 commonly outshoot the Rems and other high end guns out of the box with over the counter ammo.. A lot of them will shoot 1 moa


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## James Furey (Jul 27, 2010)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Since we are speaking of accuracy and custom rifles, I have to bring up a flip side. For years. Savages low end 110 commonly outshoot the Rems and other high end guns out of the box with over the counter ammo.. A lot of them will shoot 1 moa


While that may be true, Savages major detractor compared to rem is parts availability. You can start with a base r700 and as your skill progresses you can upgrade your rifle, whereas whith the savage you for the most part have what you have while there are aftermarket options they are not near as available as parts for a R700. 

The mission drives the gear train.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Another thing, the 110 had the very light sporter barrel. After 3 shots, the accuracy went down hill unless you let the barrel cool. I would like to know how the heavier bbl varmiters by Savage do.

The most accurate gun I have had was built on a Rem. 600 Mohawk action in 7/08. McGowan bbl, MacMillan stock, Burris scope. The whole rig was just past 6lbs but off the bench would easilly shoot sub 1/2" moa. Traded it for a Ruger 22 Hornet with the grey lam stock. It was a great carry rifle for still hunting and killed a lot of game with it. Didn't really appreciate it until I started packing that .300 Win mag around.


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Depends on when the Savage 110 was manufactured. There was a time when the 110 wasn't so accurate but the problem has been remedied with the new owners.

My R700 BDL with hand loads will shoot 1 MOA which is just fine with me. For most people, 1 MOD (minute of deer) will suffice.


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Thanks for the input. Its kinda what I had come away with.
I was reading a review on a Howa Supreme Varminter 1500 and it show a group at .27" and they came away saying it would be around a .6 MOA rifle.
Now for a $600 off the shelf gun it blew away most of the official sniper rifles currently used by Police and Military around the world.
I kinda had the idea that you would have to go down to Accuracy International, spend many thousands of dollars but you would have something that these cheaper production line hunting rifles couldnt get near if they tried. 
To see there wasnt that much difference in MOA with the same shooter, ammo and scope between that AI gun and a Howa was not what I expected.
Obvioulsy barrel life, quality trigger, stock etc all cost more coin.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

The 110 is about 20 years old. It outshoots the 270 #1, the Win Classic .300 mag and, well it outshoots all the large calibers I have outside of the 45/70. I have a Savage 22 mag ss with a bull bbl. The 2 model 77's won't touch it. One is a LR the other a mag. The model 77 22 hornet is a pretty accurate piece.


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

James Furey said:


> While that may be true, Savages major detractor compared to rem is parts availability. You can start with a base r700 and as your skill progresses you can upgrade your rifle, whereas whith the savage you for the most part have what you have while there are aftermarket options they are not near as available as parts for a R700.
> 
> The mission drives the gear train.


 Thats something else I find interesting (from a noobs point of view).
You go and buy a stock R700. Then you replace the barrel, get a better stock etc. Im not quite sure what is left behind that is Remmington? :?


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Hasn't the most accepted standard of accuracy for years been the Rem 40X? Always been guaranteed to shoot 1 MOA or less


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

It's the 700 action people want. They buy and sell them all day for custom guns. When I buy a rifle, I am going to slap a scope on it and go hunting so it better shoot decent.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Our primary sniper (Marine trained) uses an Accuaracy Arm International, .308. When I was the primary negotiator, he covered me many times, with me knowing the trajectory of anything he might send down range was inches from me. Our secondary sniper uses a 300 Win Mag., same company. A favored souvenier of mine is a quarter with a hole 1/16 to the right and 1/16 low of center from 500 yards, cold bore. It stays in my State vehicle as a good luck piece. 

DFrost


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> It's the 700 action people want. They buy and sell them all day for custom guns. When I buy a rifle, I am going to slap a scope on it and go hunting so it better shoot decent.



Yes. Much like the Mauser action, the Rem is very good. The rest of the parts are just parts. The Rem push feed with the opposed locking lugs and bolt root is very strong. The push feed wasn't that well accepted at first as opposed to the control feed of the Winchester but people came around to accepting it on a big game rifle.


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## Al Vaillencourt (Sep 2, 2010)

Savage 10FP is a pretty good bang for the buck IMO.
It will definitely out shoot me.


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## James Furey (Jul 27, 2010)

Christopher Jones said:


> Thats something else I find interesting (from a noobs point of view).
> You go and buy a stock R700. Then you replace the barrel, get a better stock etc. Im not quite sure what is left behind that is Remmington? :?


As others have said it ends up being just the rem action left, and even that can be and often is refined.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Sure wish I had a good M-14. That was basic issue when I went in the Army. (yeh, I'm old)
I think the Seals still use them, among other rifles. At least they did up till a few yr ago.


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## Al Vaillencourt (Sep 2, 2010)

Bob Scott said:


> Sure wish I had a good M-14. That was basic issue when I went in the Army. (yeh, I'm old)
> I think the Seals still use them, among other rifles. At least they did up till a few yr ago.


Maybe more like seasoned. If you had said you were issued a low serial number M1, old might fit.:wink:
I didn't get issued one but used the M21 (Art 1) at the first sniper school I attended.
Not sure if the navy did it but we took the M14/21, put it in a glass stock and renamed it the M25. Also added some modern glass to the mix. Army still had it around a few years ago when I retired.


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## Ashley Campbell (Jun 21, 2009)

Out of every rifle I've owned, I'm the most impressed with my Remington 788. It's really accurate even at distances. I was making golf ball sized groups at 350 yards (scoped, but I have terrible eye sight so it's scope or shooting blind because my glasses blur my up close vision)
But it has a McMillan stock on it and the barrel is free floated - chambered in 30-30. It's dead sexy 

BUT! I can say I've shot the Barrett .50 cal. My uncle works for McMillan and they've been working with providing the .50 cal sniper rifles for the military. SO MUCH FUN! Just not a practical weapon because of ammo price.


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

2+" groups at 350 yds with a 30-30 is respectable. Are you shooting the new hi-po rounds with the conical bullets, or the old round nosed ammo?


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## Ashley Campbell (Jun 21, 2009)

180 grain lead tip soft nose - I can never find the 150 grain FMJ's around here, they're usually sold out.


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

That round has the ballistic coefficient of a brick. Must be one hell of a rainbow trajectory. 

Way back in the day there was a round called an accelerator designed for the 30-30. It had a plastic sabot with a .22 cal bullet. I hear they were fast but accuracy was not the best. Don't think they make em anymore. It was a good idea that never caught on.


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## Ashley Campbell (Jun 21, 2009)

You can still get the wadding to make sabot rounds if you hand load.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Ashley Campbell said:


> Out of every rifle I've owned, I'm the most impressed with my Remington 788. It's really accurate even at distances. I was making golf ball sized groups at 350 yards (scoped, but I have terrible eye sight so it's scope or shooting blind because my glasses blur my up close vision)
> But it has a McMillan stock on it and the barrel is free floated - chambered in 30-30. It's dead sexy


WOW, now that is impressive. I have many .30 calibers (.300 WM, .308, .300 WSM, .300 Ultra Mag, .30-06)All built on semi custom rigs with high end glass and most of them will not group that tight at 350 yards!
I can not imagine doing that with a .30-30
You are the MAN!!


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Ashley Campbell said:


> Out of every rifle I've owned, I'm the most impressed with my Remington 788. It's really accurate even at distances. I was making golf ball sized groups at 350 yards (scoped, but I have terrible eye sight so it's scope or shooting blind because my glasses blur my up close vision)
> But it has a McMillan stock on it and the barrel is free floated - chambered in 30-30. It's dead sexy


I think we need video proof, you could answer a lot of questions around here if you did it in your undies too..


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> I think we need video proof, you could answer a lot of questions around here if you did it in your undies too..


one question she would have to answer to me is this..............."Will you marry me?" LOL
Sorry Nicole and Georgia, but I may have a new WDF girlfriend! :lol:


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## james mackey (Mar 28, 2009)

mike suttle said:


> WOW, now that is impressive. I have many .30 calibers (.300 WM, .308, .300 WSM, .300 Ultra Mag, .30-06)All built on semi custom rigs with high end glass and most of them will not group that tight at 350 yards!
> I can not imagine doing that with a .30-30
> You are the MAN!!



I really wanted to say that.....I'm glad you did since this thread was aimed at you!


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## Al Vaillencourt (Sep 2, 2010)

Howard Knauf said:


> That round has the ballistic coefficient of a brick. Must be one hell of a rainbow trajectory.
> 
> Way back in the day there was a round called an accelerator designed for the 30-30. It had a plastic sabot with a .22 cal bullet. I hear they were fast but accuracy was not the best. Don't think they make em anymore. It was a good idea that never caught on.


Didn't know they made them for the 30-30 but I did know about the version for the 06. Never tried them though because although fast 4k+fps, the articles I read said the shot groups 100m+, started to look like rat crap in a dresser drawer...... Plus they were proud of them $$$$.


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## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

*disclaimer, Im far from an expert but....


looks like a guy I know very well may be running the best sniper instructor course in the country, he also has apparently proven that the long barrel thing is a myth (see article) and sells some nice stuff, I believe he used to run the mcmillan school

I happend to bu the same AR10 (DPMS*) that he had as his semi auto sniper rifle, and decked mine out the same, including a leupold mark4

sniperschool.com


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## Ashley Campbell (Jun 21, 2009)

> GPS, LLC, a government contractor since 1998, operated as the McMillan Sniper School and the HS Precision Sniper Program while these companies were our corporate sponsors.


These are some of the folks my uncle works with, since he's pretty much foreman or whatever at McMillan stocks...I'm told it's a pretty good course.

ETA: My nice 30-30 with the McMillan stock came from that uncle as a Christmas gift - being the only niece rocks.


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## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

will I get a huge discount if you tell him Im awesome?


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## chris haynie (Sep 15, 2009)

groups like that w/ a 30-30? really? im not saying its impossible im just saying it aint likely...

i used to buy and sell alot of rifles working at a big firearms dealer. the best ones all had one thing in common: someone who really knew what they were and cared about made that rifle really well and matched it to the load that worked best for it. 

all the super high end rifles i used to sell (ed browns, wilson combats, hs, springer match rifles) all came with test targets that specified the load fired. matching ammo to a rifle is almost as important as the rifle itself. 

i got book shelves filled with books about this shit, and tons of reloading gear, and have had who knows how many rifles..my personally favorite came out of ed browns shop some years ago.its a big ass bull barreled .308. i was its third owner and i will be its last...once i put a leupold mark 4 8-25 and worked up a proper 175gr sierra matchking load to shoot w/ it i have found it to be a dead on tack driver out to 400 or so...i never had reason or opportunity to shoot it at longer distances but i'd bet it do great out to 500...if i was pushing it further i 'dwork up a different load. i will never sell this rifle.


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## Ashley Campbell (Jun 21, 2009)

Matt Grosch said:


> will I get a huge discount if you tell him Im awesome?


Right now? Probably not, we're on the outs for the last month or so, but I'm sure it's going to blow over once he pulls his head out of his ass.

I know what you mean by "improbable" - we were at the range and I had a couple of people watching, and a spotter for those shots - i.e. I was walking them in and then adjusted it for consistency. But it was 350 yards measured out on the border patrol range - I have the target somewhere, and yes it was remarked that it was rather impressive shooting for a 30-30. 

I'll get a picture later, i thought I had one.


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