# home guard dog fencing advice?



## Bart Karmich (Jul 16, 2010)

What kind of fencing should a social home guard dog have? Not talking about a killer security dog that needs a tiger cage. I'm asking for your opinions based on what you like yourself. The kind of property I'm asking about would be a typical suburban tract house.

Should the dog have access in and out of the house to patrol the yard at will? Right now I have to let my dog in and out. He's figured out how to open all the doors but for some reason he doesn't close them after he goes through, go figure.

Should the dog have access to the front yard? My front yard isn't fenced so he only has access on a leash. I don't use a tie out because it leaves him vulnerable.

What kind of gates would you use and how do they close and latch?

Do you like fencing or gates the dog can see and be seen through or one that obscures the view?

I need to fix my yard fencing and I'm looking for advice from people that use their dogs for providing some security to their property.

I have a typical suburban tract house. I have a very cheap cedar wood fence, 9 years old, can't do a lot about it because of the neighbors, and the HOA might gripe too although they've never done anything before.

When I got the dog I stapled wire horse fencing around the perimeter to keep the neighbor's dogs from bashing through the fence boards. It does a good job of holding the rickety cedar together provided I keep on top of which posts are rotting and replace them before the whole thing comes down.

My dog is a in-the-house dog, a homebody and not an escape artist so I don't need a radio collar or anything like that but I do have to keep the gate closed. I have to fix up the gate for sure because the latch sucks and it doesn't even close by itself. Someone is going to forget to close it at some time.

I thought about double gates but I'm probably just going to hang one to replace the existing one and just make it more solid, automatic closing and a secure latch.

I thought about fencing the front yard so the dog could patrol the front of the house but the front yard is so small unless I do the driveway too and that would be so ghetto. Besides, my truck doesn't fit on the driveway without hanging into the sidewalk and it certainly doesn't fit in the garage -- and it's just a standard full size pickup. I swear when I was growing up the two car garage was bigger than the three car I have now.


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

I don’t really understand what you are asking everyone knows a typical suburban house should be surrounded in razor wire coil pyramids and sand bags. Try home Depot


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Regardless of what you want or need your HOA may have total say in what type of fence you put up.
Some say vinyl only. Some say no chainlink. Some say no privacy fence, etc, etc.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Chris McDonald said:


> I don’t really understand what you are asking everyone knows a typical suburban house should be surrounded in razor wire coil pyramids and sand bags. Try home Depot



Chris,

Can you believe this guy counting on some Gay fencing for protection? Razor wire and sand bags are the bare minimum.
I'd go with a moat and draw bridge myself with alligators in the moat of course ;-)


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Chris,
> 
> Can you believe this guy counting on some Gay fencing for protection? Razor wire and sand bags are the bare minimum.
> I'd go with a moat and draw bridge myself with alligators in the moat of course ;-)



What's wrong with an old fashioned 5ft thick chain around a tree with padlocks? You want a real guard dog or not? Oh yeah, don't forget to feed it gun powder and maybe you want to slice the pads of his feet to keep him extra nasty for all of those kids that are gonna come around. Yeah that'll teach kids from coming in your yard to get their ball. Want your ball? It's gonna cost you an arm or leg. ;-)


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## Kat LaPlante (May 17, 2009)

Bart Karmich said:


> What kind of fencing should a social home guard dog have? Not talking about a killer security dog that needs a tiger cage. I'm asking for your opinions based on what you like yourself. The kind of property I'm asking about would be a typical suburban tract house.
> 
> Should the dog have access in and out of the house to patrol the yard at will? Right now I have to let my dog in and out. He's figured out how to open all the doors but for some reason he doesn't close them after he goes through, go figure.
> 
> ...


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## Kat LaPlante (May 17, 2009)

Have you thought about getting an invisible fence system and stapling it to the existing fence? We are on an acreage and although only have the invisible in ground system alot of the people here weave the wire through the barb wire on the ranch fencing. They really do work well if you train properly. Although I gave up on training and let both dogs run into the zone while on vibrate.....worked like a charm and waaayyyyyyy faster than the "NO FIDO BAD FLAGS"

None of your neigbours will know theres a fence and they will walk by the front yard and think you have the best trained dogs EVER!!:-D:-D


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

I suggest one of those sound barrier type concrete walls like on the sides of the interstate...


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Chris,
> 
> Can you believe this guy counting on some Gay fencing for protection? Razor wire and sand bags are the bare minimum.
> I'd go with a moat and draw bridge myself with alligators in the moat of course ;-)


 
You might need a permit for that depending where he lives. How would you keep the alligators from eating the dogs? That would really stink to wake up after a night in typical everyday suburban only to find your killer dogs are missing and the alligators in the moat look chubby. 
I wouldn’t even want to deliver a pizza to this guys house.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

I am sure there are different grades of cedar fencing. You say yours is pretty rickety after 9 years mso it is probably the cheap grade. Get the good stuff and build a good, solid fence that will last. The get a $30 fence charger and a bag of six in insulater and a roll of wire and put it around the inside of the fence. Your dog will learn real quick to stay away from the fence then you can turn it off most the time. A good cedar fence will be a few bucks but the electrical part is about $50 and only takes about an hour to install. The fence will only be as good as what is holding it up also, cement the posts in and do it right. Many of the cedar fences I have seen don't even have the posts cemented and they are falling down.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Chris McDonald said:


> You might need a permit for that depending where he lives. How would you keep the alligators from eating the dogs? That would really stink to wake up after a night in typical everyday suburban only to find your killer dogs are missing and the alligators in the moat look chubby.
> I wouldn’t even want to deliver a pizza to this guys house.


No man, it has to be either alligators or dogs. The alligators want to eat the dogs and if you have Dutch Shepherds they want their collars and leashes made out of alligator skin. VBG


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Chris Michalek said:


> What's wrong with an old fashioned 5ft thick chain around a tree with padlocks? You want a real guard dog or not? Oh yeah, don't forget to feed it gun powder and maybe you want to slice the pads of his feet to keep him extra nasty for all of those kids that are gonna come around. Yeah that'll teach kids from coming in your yard to get their ball. Want your ball? It's gonna cost you an arm or leg. ;-)


Geez Chris what kind of security expert are you?
You need to protect the whole perimeter not just a 5 ft area around the tree. Now if the padlock has a quick release that activates when the intruder breaks a IR beam............that could be effective


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Geez Chris what kind of security expert are you?
> You need to protect the whole perimeter not just a 5 ft area around the tree. Now if the padlock has a quick release that activates when the intruder breaks a IR beam............that could be effective


He's just arsing you around :lol:


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Geez Chris what kind of security expert are you?
> You need to protect the whole perimeter not just a 5 ft area around the tree. Now if the padlock has a quick release that activates when the intruder breaks a IR beam............that could be effective



You're right, he should get a goose

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kd3ioueUNHI


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Dude geese are no joke...

I used some dog training techniques on a gaggle of geese in a parking lot of a motel we stayed at on vacation..once I got within "threshold" range...they charged...chased me all the way into the room...LOL
they were not scared...


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## Jim Howe (Apr 24, 2010)

My personal preference is a solid privacy type fence with "beware of dog" signs on each of the 4 gates and a couple along the sides of the fence. The gates were latched and all but one was padlocked. My concerns were mostly people (or kids) sticking their hands or fingers through the fence and getting bit and of course it bolsters your defense if someone does something really stupid and tries to break into the yard or house.

When I had my first PSD K-9, I had a split rail fence with 4 ft. wire stapled all the way around the yard. I just found too many meter readers, postal workers, and neighborhood pet people trying to talk to, pet, or give treats to the dog. I would hear the dog going balistic and there they were.... still trying to befriend him. I eneded up barking at quite a few people before I decided that the next fence would be solid and tall enough that someone would have to do something really asinine to get bit.

Of course your HOA will probably have final say as to what they approve, but you may need to check with what local codes or ordinances say as well. For me, I didn't have a HOA to contend with, but I did need a permit from the township and meet their code requirements.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Chris Michalek said:


> You're right, he should get a goose
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kd3ioueUNHI


The goose wouldn't last a minute with the alligators.


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Thomas Barriano said:


> The goose wouldn't last a minute with the alligators.


Between the dogs, geese and children trying to fish there be some fat alligators


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## Bart Karmich (Jul 16, 2010)

Jim Howe said:


> My personal preference is a solid privacy type fence with "beware of dog" signs on each of the 4 gates and a couple along the sides of the fence. The gates were latched and all but one was padlocked. My concerns were mostly people (or kids) sticking their hands or fingers through the fence and getting bit and of course it bolsters your defense if someone does something really stupid and tries to break into the yard or house.
> 
> When I had my first PSD K-9, I had a split rail fence with 4 ft. wire stapled all the way around the yard. I just found too many meter readers, postal workers, and neighborhood pet people trying to talk to, pet, or give treats to the dog. I would hear the dog going balistic and there they were.... still trying to befriend him. I eneded up barking at quite a few people before I decided that the next fence would be solid and tall enough that someone would have to do something really asinine to get bit.
> 
> Of course your HOA will probably have final say as to what they approve, but you may need to check with what local codes or ordinances say as well. For me, I didn't have a HOA to contend with, but I did need a permit from the township and meet their code requirements.


 
This was a really good answer, the kind I was looking for. I'm not sure why others have a hard time taking the question seriously or why it seems to some how have implied that I'm some kind of nut job.

There is a lot of "theory" on the fencing to consider like how to protect the homeowner from liability, how to enable the dog to do his job, and of course how to avoid the house looking like a fortress, at least that matters to me.

I have no problems with my dog on the fence as long as the gate is closed. I don't know why I would put in a electrical shock wire or an invisible fence (except in the front yard where there is no physical fence). I wouldn't mind hearing from anyone that found they needed that solution for themselves though. I'm asking what you like afterall.

My HOA is very weak but if I go by the book I have to keep the same fence material and style and color as exists now. A lot of people paint it and nobody says boo. Some people even put up chain-link gates to protect their boats, RV's and dogs better but it would out of the question to put chainlink or block wall all the way around the yard. My fence is shared with 5 neighbors, there's no way I'm going to get everyone to agree and the HOA.

I'm not just looking for advice to solve my problems. I'm really just as curious what other people who've thought about it do. I mean, it's pretty clear to me that 99% of the protection dogs out there are working almost exclusively at home. People put a lot of work, thought, theory and even write books and DVDs on training the dog. Someone must have thought a little about best practices for the dog's environment on the job. I'm talking about practical stuff, not fantasy. Does your dog have to break a window to get at a perp in the yard? If your dog is in the back yard, and a perp goes for the front window, how does he get from point A to point B?


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Doggie door.


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

I'm talking about practical stuff, not fantasy. Does your dog have to break a window to get at a perp in the yard? If your dog is in the back yard, and a perp goes for the front window, how does he get from point A to point B?[/QUOTE]

Wondering how a dog is going to get out of your house to get a “perp” might leans on the fantasy side. Do you really consider that practical? I mean really now? 
The thought of the dog figuring out if it’s a “perp” or a kid getting a ball kind of adds to the fantasy. Before you know it you got a moat in the fantasy. It all adds up to me


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## Bart Karmich (Jul 16, 2010)

There's a good point because I do care about liability too. You have to protect the innocent or ignorant kid but also let the dog do it's job. So what kind of fence/gate/doggie door combination or set up really works for you? Training the dog matters too of course but I'm not asking about that here.

The answer concerning the privacy fence with warning signs spoke right to the issue, but all this other nonsense is just that. I can't believe not many people have thought about what access the dog has to the yard/house and what kind of protection they employ for the dog and the public in order to have a guard dog working safely for everyone but the bad guys.

You could say that anticipating a malicious trespasser, home invader or burglar at home is fantasy and dream about moats or 20 foot piles of razor wire or whatever but if the idea of a guard dog at home is regarded as foolish then I'm obviously asking in the wrong place.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Bart, I don't have a dog door. I don't expect my dogs to do any thing but tell me someone is there........unless I am in trouble personally. When the dogs bark and let me know something isn't right, I will take care of it even though my judgement may not be any better than the dogs when I am sitting out on the deck in the dark sipping sourmash.

The ludicrus laws we have say I have to be in fear of my life.....if someone were to be in my house at three in the morning....I AM in fear of my life and I am not giving my position away to ask anything. The dog is merely the means to keep smart people away from me.


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## Bart Karmich (Jul 16, 2010)

Chris McDonald said:


> Wondering how a dog is going to get out of your house to get a “perp” might leans on the fantasy side. Do you really consider that practical? I mean really now?


I asked this question in the personal protection section in regard to dogs trained for "real world" personal protection. What kind of scenarios of real world protection would you consider to be anything but a farce?


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## Bart Karmich (Jul 16, 2010)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Bart, I don't have a dog door. I don't expect my dogs to do any thing but tell me someone is there........unless I am in trouble personally. When the dogs bark and let me know something isn't right, I will take care of it even though my judgement may not be any better than the dogs when I am sitting out on the deck in the dark sipping sourmash.
> 
> The ludicrus laws we have say I have to be in fear of my life.....if someone were to be in my house at three in the morning....I AM in fear of my life and I am not giving my position away to ask anything. The dog is merely the means to keep smart people away from me.


 
So essentially you would wait until the person is completely in the house before the dog would have any physical access to them? That makes sense in that you easily distinguish those with malicious intent. It's legally clear. 

I'm sure other people use the dog in the yard as well, maybe not the front yard but at least the back and sides. The front yard is tricky but maybe someone else has a good idea. That's why I asked.

I'm not just asking about how the dog gets to bite the bad guy either, because like you said you only expect your dogs to alert you which is quite practical and sensible. But suppose the dog is in the back yard and someone is coming through the front window. The dog barks his head off, but he's obviously less of a deterent than if he were behind the window. If he's in the house, that works better but if someone jumps over my back fence at 2AM, isn't that enough?

Right now my dog is in the house. Someone has to enter the house before he can do anything but bark. I started this thread because I'm open to other ideas.


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

how are your dogs with food refusal? 

No fence is gonna keep a person from tossing poison meat or a sponge soaked in bacon grease into your yard a few days before they intend to break in. 

Be smart. Lock up your shit in the yard. Keep the dog in the house and a shotgun by your bed or my favorite, a bullwhip. Throwing knives are slick too if you're into silent kills.

Most of the intruders that have come into my house were dispatched with either bullwhip to the eyes or a knife thrown into his mouth.


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## Bart Karmich (Jul 16, 2010)

Where I live home invaders can be shot on sight. Entering the house uninvited is enough to satisfy all the requirements of the law.

FWIW, I don't use guns for self defense myself. I used to be a real gun nut bout 15-18 years ago but I moved on. I have nothing against guns but I'm not really interested in them anymore and I don't keep any. I can defend myself within reason but I don't keep a list of cruel scenarios for my enemies, just a dog for deterence. Sorry to all the people that were expecting I had a case of assault rifles and 40mm grenade launchers next to the toilet and in the shower. I know you're so bummed now, huh?

There's a case in court now where some stupid punk got angry drunk and beat his neighbors door in. Because he crossed the threshold it counted for home invasion but the judge has a dilemma. The evidence shows that the kid didn't intend to do harm to any person,the one he was angry at wasn't even home and the one kid who was home he left alone. He was just very, very stupid, and drunk. But a lot of people around here would have shot the kid for something like that. The judge has to figure out how to not put an idiot kid ( I think he was 19 or 20) in the system to make him worse but also keep him from getting shot next time. A couple years state time for this punk wouldn't turn him around but he's just f'up even worse. He needs a serious wake up call. It would have done him REAL good if he got taught a lesson by a real GOOD dog behind that door.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Oh, I got two in the house also. Come on in. 22 outside. I designed the dog yards with with Ruby Ridge in the back of my mind. :grin: If you can sneak up on me, I deserve what I get. Got a fully loaded H&K .45 Compact sitting six inches to the right of the keyboard. If someone is outside here I am going to slip outside anyway. Reality is, nothing is ever going to happen here. The guns are all loaded because an empty gun is just a paper weight. Actually, I have only fired one round out of the H&K. It shoots about where it should. The 44 hanging next to the front door is my hunting rig. I can hit a hog running at 50 yards with that pistola. Another advantage to the 44 is it has a skinning knife and a bone saw on the same holster belt. LOL When it comes down to it, I am not leaving the call to a dog that can get my tit in a ringer for the rest of my life.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Bart Karmich said:


> Where I live home invaders can be shot on sight. Entering the house uninvited is enough to satisfy all the requirements of the law.
> 
> 
> There's a case in court now where some stupid punk got angry drunk and beat his neighbors door in. Because he crossed the threshold it counted for home invasion but the judge has a dilemma.



Bart,

There is no dilemma. At least there wouldn't be in Colorado with the home owners protection act (Make my Day Law)
There was a recent case here, where a young drunk got lost and broke into what he thought was his house. The actual homeowner shot him dead and wasn't even charged.
Either you have the absolute right to defend your home against
intruders or not.


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## Ashley Campbell (Jun 21, 2009)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Bart,
> 
> There is no dilemma. At least there wouldn't be in Colorado with the home owners protection act (Make my Day Law)
> There was a recent case here, where a young drunk got lost and broke into what he thought was his house. The actual homeowner shot him dead and wasn't even charged.
> ...


Bingo.

How is this such a dilemma with figuring out a damn fence? Install new privacy fence similar to old shitty privacy fence - do a good job, cement the posts into the ground...reinforce with a t-post if you aren't satisfied at each regular post (on the inside next to it)...run horse wire or chainlink low on the inside to keep asshole neighbor dogs in their yard. 
Install dog door - dog has access to house and backyard. If someone comes through the front door, dog can eat them alive, if they hop your fence - same scenario. This isn't rocket science. If you're concerned that someone could enter your house via said dog door (this is my contingency plan when I lock my keys in the house, hop the fence and climb through my dog door) then make sure you put the cover on it before you leave the house and have dog inside the house.

As for signs, contact your homeowners insurance first and see what their policy is. I *believe* it is State Farm that informs clients not to post "beware of dog" and such signs because it leaves the owner open to liability in the fact that they were "aware the dog is dangerous" etc. Not all home owners insurance go with this, so it's worth asking them about. 

Lastly, I wouldn't depend on a dog to protect me and my family. If my dogs bark at intruders, they have done their job, and now it's MY job to protect my family. Besides, at least here, as Thomas said, if someone breaks into your house and you blow them away, you're a lot less likely to be sued than if your dog bites the shit out of them. DEAD people don't testify against you, live bitten people can.

ETA: I say the last part because like someone else mentioned, it is not hard for someone to case your house and poison your dog, thus leaving you defenseless. Sure you can defend yourself, but without a barking dog, are you going to wake up in time?


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## Bart Karmich (Jul 16, 2010)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Bart,
> 
> There is no dilemma. At least there wouldn't be in Colorado with the home owners protection act (Make my Day Law)
> There was a recent case here, where a young drunk got lost and broke into what he thought was his house. The actual homeowner shot him dead and wasn't even charged.
> ...


 
Nobody is arguing the fact that the person in the home dwelling has the right to shoot the invader (in this jurisdiction they clearly do). The dilemma is what to do with the kid that didn't get shot to keep him from getting shot next time. It's off the subject but look, the kid is something like 19, one of his parents died and he's f'ing pissed off at life. He's young and stupid. He gets drunk and it's an angry drunk. He's angry at the crap his life has dealt him. He's not violent toward people but he was angry enough to smash a door and technically he crossed the threshold. No excuse for stupidity or foolishness that led to a felony, but a decent person wouldn't say this kid needs shot. So he got mad, drunk and bashed his neighbor's door in. Legally he's qualified to have gotten shot at that time, and now to go to state prison. Those options suck. I would have loved for him to have gotten worked over by a good dog. One that would have worked him over real good but without viciousness or meanness, just a unrelenting determination to do it's job until it was done. If I owned the dog and got sued because my dog bit him instead of me shooting him, I would probably win but even if I didn't I'd rather pay for the kid's education than shoot him.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Bart Karmich said:


> I would have loved for him to have gotten worked over by a good dog. One that would have worked him over real good but without viciousness or meanness.


A dog that attacks someone kicking in your door is not gonna do it kindly...


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## Bart Karmich (Jul 16, 2010)

Ashley Campbell said:


> Bingo.
> 
> How is this such a dilemma with figuring out a damn fence?


 
Thanks for the advice. Besides solving my own problems I'm also asking what other people's preferences are. I have some specific parameters I have to work within so I have a cemented post cedar fence with wire horse fencing inside, a reinforced self-closing gate and at present no doggie door. My dog doesn't have access to the front yard except on leash with a handler. There's a number of implications to this and no matter how you work it out. That's why I wanted to see what choices other people make in regard this these decisions, fencing, gates, signage, doors etc. Going on to talk about self-defence with something other than the dog strays off topic but it's fair enough that people don't depend on the dog alone. I don't either. I'm a little skeptical that I need to worry about my joint being cased, the dog poisoned and how to handle ninjas from three different directions. I'm not running a safehouse for the WPP, I didn't cross any cartels in this lifetime and I haven't burned a Koran lately.


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## Bart Karmich (Jul 16, 2010)

Joby Becker said:


> A dog that attacks someone kicking in your door is not gonna do it kindly...


I would expect him to handle it just like in training with a suit. If he did his best to rip and arm or leg off and left it dangling like a wet sock that would be fine. Body bites are fine too. If he ripped the trachea out of the neck and dragged it all over the lawn, well, you get disqualified for that right?


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

My preference is what I now have. A six ft, vinyl, privacy fence around my back yard.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Bart Karmich said:


> Nobody is arguing the fact that the person in the home dwelling has the right to shoot the invader (in this jurisdiction they clearly do). The dilemma is what to do with the kid that didn't get shot to keep him from getting shot next time. It's off the subject but look, the kid is something like 19, one of his parents died and he's f'ing pissed off at life. He's young and stupid. He gets drunk and it's an angry drunk. He's angry at the crap his life has dealt him. He's not violent toward people but he was angry enough to smash a door and technically he crossed the threshold. No excuse for stupidity or foolishness that led to a felony, but a decent person wouldn't say this kid needs shot. So he got mad, drunk and bashed his neighbor's door in. Legally he's qualified to have gotten shot at that time, and now to go to state prison. Those options suck. I would have loved for him to have gotten worked over by a good dog. One that would have worked him over real good but without viciousness or meanness, just a unrelenting determination to do it's job until it was done. If I owned the dog and got sued because my dog bit him instead of me shooting him, I would probably win but even if I didn't I'd rather pay for the kid's education than shoot him.


Whatever,

You started asking silly questions about fencing and what kind of leashes and collars to use and what kind of food to feed or shovel for the dog shit and now silly socialistic statements about the poor confused teenager with anger management issues. WTF cares?

You apparently like the sound of your own voice, but I'm done
wasting my time on your posts


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

This post is also now closed!


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## Bart Karmich (Jul 16, 2010)

Removed due to redundancy!


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