# K9 Nose Work



## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

One of my pup people sent me this video of their dog doing "nose work". For those who haven't heard of nose work, it's a new sport for dog, based on detection work. But instead of drugs or explosives, the dogs are taught to search for odors such as birch, anise, and clove. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iKPEojcUMOg

I like the idea, it seems like a good way for people to test their dogs abilities for this type of work, without having to deal with the legalities of having normal odors to train with.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Theres alot of other odor dogs out there. Theres tobacco, cell phones, bed bugs etc.......


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> One of my pup people sent me this video of their dog doing "nose work". For those who haven't heard of nose work, it's a new sport for dog, based on detection work. But instead of drugs or explosives, the dogs are taught to search for odors such as birch, anise, and clove.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iKPEojcUMOg
> 
> I like the idea, it seems like a good way for people to test their dogs abilities for this type of work, without having to deal with the legalities of having normal odors to train with.



K9 Nose work is fun. My dobermann Flannchadh has completed the Intro to Nose work class and has started the Intro to odor class. He's doing pretty good outside but I haven't had a lot of practice inside outside of class. It seems to help him focus and calm?


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Interesting. When I worked in the research lab, we kept several dogs in the kennels that had been trained to search and respond. They were trained on an odor we made, well actually, they made in the lab. We called it Hex, don't know why. The Doc in charge of the lab said it was an odor we would not come across in day-to-day activities. That way the dog could be used in any venue we needed at the time. 

DFrost


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Harry Keely said:


> Theres alot of other odor dogs out there. Theres tobacco, cell phones, bed bugs etc.......


I'm aware of that, but if the dog is only being trained for fun, then I don't think it really matters what odor(s) they are being trained on. I definitely wouldn't want to keep bed bugs around to teach them with :-o Tobacco, cell phones, etc would be easier, but I can see benefits to not using those odors also. Keeps the line between sport and real world very clear, so you don't have people who take a couple of nose work classes suddenly deciding they want to volunteer their dog for searches of schools, jails, etc


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> Keeps the line between sport and real world very clear, so you don't have people who take a couple of nose work classes suddenly deciding they want to volunteer their dog for searches of schools, jails, etc


(or) SAR work, ha ha

DFrost


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

David Frost said:


> (or) SAR work, ha ha
> 
> DFrost


LOL I was thinking that as I was typing


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

I see something like this could potentially carry over to a practical use. Over the weekend the son of one of my employees got drunk roughed him up pretty well. Before that he threw their only key to the car into a ditch. If it wasn't a 3 hour drive I'd take my dog up to see if she could locate it. The Troopers marked the general area and given that she's located objects outside that she's only had exposure to once it's possible she could find it. 

I suppose if I want to know I can just try it and see if she could find one of my own.


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> I'm aware of that, but if the dog is only being trained for fun, then I don't think it really matters what odor(s) they are being trained on. I definitely wouldn't want to keep bed bugs around to teach them with :-o Tobacco, cell phones, etc would be easier, but I can see benefits to not using those odors also. Keeps the line between sport and real world very clear, so you don't have people who take a couple of nose work classes suddenly deciding they want to volunteer their dog for searches of schools, jails, etc


 
Hey how do samsungs smell compared to motorolas anyway?


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Jody Butler said:


> Hey how do samsungs smell compared to motorolas anyway?


I have a couple of dogs from my breeding that are doing cell phone detection, and I was asking about that. According to their handlers they aren't actually sure what the dogs are alerting on. But they do alert very consistently, so they (the dogs) have figured something out. I don't know if it's a combination of odors or ?? Maybe the batteries, aren't cell phone batteries fairly similar in chemical makeup? But I don't think the dogs alert on other items that take batteries, so ??? Would be curious if anyone who trains these dogs does know what it is the dogs are alerting on.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> LOL I was thinking that as I was typing


I figured you'd thought that. You were just to nice to say it, ha ha.

DFrost


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> Would be curious if anyone who trains these dogs does know what it is the dogs are alerting on.


I don't honestly know but a few weeks ago I had a broken clip for the bungee net on my 4 wheeler that I put my dog on. I found it interesting that the dog hit on a number of plastic objects before making her way to the final object. They were not wholly constructed of plastic but the material seemed to be very similar yet every object was very different from the other The first was a R/C car, then a set of binoculars, and then finally the clip. 

I've worked with her enough in my garage to know she knows the difference between metal types. Seems if she's looking for steel she will work primarily around objects fully constructed of steel, or when she's looking for batteries she hits on the battery and doesn't randomly hit on something like an object of similar size or just any metal object. It's pretty unusual that she'll hit on a bolt over the actual object she's out for but I've seen her rooting around on metal pipes, in bolt bins, etc looking for the object rather than say in a bag of rags or digging through a tote of extension cord.

Lately I've been using a credit card but tonight I tried the keys. It took about 10 minutes of searching for them in the grass/weeds and then I saw her bump them. I know from her reaction she didn't realize she was looking for them. Anyway, all this rambling to say what tiny little bit of novice stuff I've done material does appear to be a factor - primary composition seems to carry some weight as well. These are just observations and I'm probably way off base with what's really occurring. And the key thing was mentioned because I wondered to what extent she was hitting on objects with my scent, if that were a primary factor she'd have found the keys the minute she got near them.

I suppose if someone wanted to know about the phones remove the battery and see if they still hit on them. I'd do separate searches with each to see what results I got.


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> I have a couple of dogs from my breeding that are doing cell phone detection, and I was asking about that. According to their handlers they aren't actually sure what the dogs are alerting on. But they do alert very consistently, so they (the dogs) have figured something out. I don't know if it's a combination of odors or ?? Maybe the batteries, aren't cell phone batteries fairly similar in chemical makeup? But I don't think the dogs alert on other items that take batteries, so ??? Would be curious if anyone who trains these dogs does know what it is the dogs are alerting on.


 
I have seen it done, and have seen both good and not bad, but failed results as dogs alerted on other elcectical plastic material. Just curious to see what and how people do it. I have seen just actual phones being used, some with some without battery. Have seen the entire cell phone and battery shredded down and put in baggies, and other stuff as well...


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## Jennifer Michelson (Sep 20, 2006)

I have been curious about the cell phone thing....I do some article searching with Griffin (live find sar dog). I lose stuff, so I taught him to 'find my keys'. I often will just throw stuff out in an area and ask him to search--his favorite item to find (shows a lot of animation and is the only thing he will pick up) is my cell phone. He will find just about anything from a pen to my metal coffee cup (which he doesnt seem to like). I put out my GPS unit once and he was pretty enthusiastic about finding that too. I do wonder if it is the electronics.

A couble of my sar teammates went to a k9 nose work seminar and set up a bunch of boxes for us one training. It is fun for HR dogs too! My HR puppy (10months now) showed more enthusiasm for the many boxes than for the cinder blocks. I am going to get one of the oils and work Griffin with this--it is fun for them. Granted, you have to make sure no one recycles your boxes!! Forgot to tell hubby that I was saving the boxes and out they went...


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## Wayne Dodge (Mar 7, 2008)

I would be very curious to see double blind tests with uncontaminated phones and discrimination odors available that were similar in composition. I would guess, only a guess that they would struggle at best.


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Wayne Dodge said:


> I would be very curious to see double blind tests with uncontaminated phones and discrimination odors available that were similar in composition. I would guess, only a guess that they would struggle at best.


Agreed! To many variables...false alerts possible on like odors and other things, I just don't see the consistency in it, however if they miss, its not like it is a bomb, nobody is gonna die, however still brings question to the whole cell phone thing anyway...


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Jennifer Michelson said:


> I have been curious about the cell phone thing....I do some article searching with Griffin (live find sar dog). I lose stuff, so I taught him to 'find my keys'. I often will just throw stuff out in an area and ask him to search--his favorite item to find (shows a lot of animation and is the only thing he will pick up) is my cell phone. He will find just about anything from a pen to my metal coffee cup (which he doesnt seem to like). I put out my GPS unit once and he was pretty enthusiastic about finding that too. I do wonder if it is the electronics.


Jen, if you have a SAR dog, it should be the fresh human scent on those items that is the common thread that allows the dog to indicate on all of those different items in a field. You can test it in an area with some older garbage and things with none to very little human scent on them. Then you would know if your dog is just looking for anything that is not the field, or, is actually searching out the items with fresh(ish) human scent.

Also some dogs like the "mouth feel and size" of certain items, I for one doubt that the smell of electronics makes some items more exciting better to pick up than non electronic items...... I would think that your cell has A LOT of scent on it for a non pourous item since it is rubbing up against your face all the time. I can actually SEE the face crap on my phone often (ewww). That may account for some really nice head snaps and lots of enthusiasm.

Obviously dogs trained to alert on cell phones are not targeting human scent.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Wayne Dodge said:


> I would be very curious to see double blind tests with uncontaminated phones and discrimination odors available that were similar in composition. I would guess, only a guess that they would struggle at best.


All the cell phone sniffing dogs I'm aware of work in the prison system. That alone may be a big factor in the success, really how many items in a cell are going to be of similar composition and legal for the inmate to have? It's also a much smaller and more controlled search area. Not the prison as a whole, but each individual cell.


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## Candy Eggert (Oct 28, 2008)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> All the cell phone sniffing dogs I'm aware of work in the prison system. .


And that alone is probably the reason that most LE's/DOC's here are not going to offer the exact odor the dogs are targeting. :-o


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Candy Eggert said:


> And that alone is probably the reason that most LE's/DOC's here are not going to offer the exact odor the dogs are targeting. :-o


 
Hardly, they don't even know themselves!


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## Candy Eggert (Oct 28, 2008)

Jody Butler said:


> Hardly, they don't even know themselves!


LOL Well I have it on good authority that they do ;-)~


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Candy Eggert said:


> And that alone is probably the reason that most LE's/DOC's here are not going to offer the exact odor the dogs are targeting. :-o


It wasn't the ones here I was talking to. If the people I was talking to knew for sure, they would have told me.


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## Wayne Dodge (Mar 7, 2008)

You say that you have it on good authority that they know what specific vapor that the dogs are indicating on. I would ask if the testing had been done under laboratory conditions using gas chromatography or if this is simply speculation based upon the addition and subtraction of particular components of the cell phone. I would wonder what scientific protocol for the testing has been performed, or if this testing has been accomplished through single blind tests with contaminated (Human odor.. Handler / trainer, oil, ball, etc.. etc.) cell phones. It would be difficult at best to isolate any particular compound that is available through multiple vendors and advancements in technology that is consistently changing, never mind the release of solvents used during the manufacturing process that will not be available after a relatively short period of time… ie a new car smell. It is something that I see many complex problems with in an environment that is not isolated and controlled like a prison, an enviroment that offers on a regular basis many of the same compounds in multiple other varieties.

Just a very small look at many huge problems with this specific detection claim, I would like to see it done, I would find it educational for sure.


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## Jennifer Michelson (Sep 20, 2006)

Jennifer Coulter said:


> Jen, if you have a SAR dog, it should be the fresh human scent on those items that is the common thread that allows the dog to indicate on all of those different items in a field. You can test it in an area with some older garbage and things with none to very little human scent on them. Then you would know if your dog is just looking for anything that is not the field, or, is actually searching out the items with fresh(ish) human scent.
> 
> Also some dogs like the "mouth feel and size" of certain items, I for one doubt that the smell of electronics makes some items more exciting better to pick up than non electronic items...... I would think that your cell has A LOT of scent on it for a non pourous item since it is rubbing up against your face all the time. I can actually SEE the face crap on my phone often (ewww). That may account for some really nice head snaps and lots of enthusiasm.


I assume it is the fresh human scent that he is looking for and mine specifically--I only train on my stuff. He doesnt alert on old stuff, but does show interest in stuff that is not mine, but is newer in the area that should have human scent (last winter we found a glove that hadnt been there 2 days before).

He did find a wallet belonging to a someone else (who lost it during a gps class), but I knew Griff had it because of body language before I asked him to alert. The wallet definitely had fresh human scent on it.

I do know the FBI is trying to scientifically isolate what the dogs smell in regards to HR.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Wayne Dodge said:


> You say that you have it on good authority that they know what specific vapor that the dogs are indicating on. I would ask if the testing had been done under laboratory conditions using gas chromatography or if this is simply speculation based upon the addition and subtraction of particular components of the cell phone. I would wonder what scientific protocol for the testing has been performed, or if this testing has been accomplished through single blind tests with contaminated (Human odor.. Handler / trainer, oil, ball, etc.. etc.) cell phones. It would be difficult at best to isolate any particular compound that is available through multiple vendors and advancements in technology that is consistently changing, never mind the release of solvents used during the manufacturing process that will not be available after a relatively short period of time… ie a new car smell. It is something that I see many complex problems with in an environment that is not isolated and controlled like a prison, an enviroment that offers on a regular basis many of the same compounds in multiple other varieties.
> 
> Just a very small look at many huge problems with this specific detection claim, I would like to see it done, I would find it educational for sure.



Wayne 

Does it really matter what specific odor component the dog is detecting (maybe different dog detect differently?) if the dog indicates when in the presence of a cell phone. Even if there is a 10% false indication for a radio or ? If the dog finds all the contraband prison cell phones. Who cares how he does it


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## Candy Eggert (Oct 28, 2008)

Wayne Dodge said:


> You say that you have it on good authority that they know what specific vapor that the dogs are indicating on. I would ask if the testing had been done under laboratory conditions using gas chromatography or if this is simply speculation based upon the addition and subtraction of particular components of the cell phone. I would wonder what scientific protocol for the testing has been performed, or if this testing has been accomplished through single blind tests with contaminated (Human odor.. Handler / trainer, oil, ball, etc.. etc.) cell phones. It would be difficult at best to isolate any particular compound that is available through multiple vendors and advancements in technology that is consistently changing, never mind the release of solvents used during the manufacturing process that will not be available after a relatively short period of time… ie a new car smell. It is something that I see many complex problems with in an environment that is not isolated and controlled like a prison, an enviroment that offers on a regular basis many of the same compounds in multiple other varieties.
> 
> Just a very small look at many huge problems with this specific detection claim, I would like to see it done, I would find it educational for sure.


Hi Wayne,

Great questions! I don't know what scientific tests have been done that isolate the specific component. If the person, who is a member of this forum, decides to share that information I'm sure he'll weigh in ;-)


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Candy Eggert said:


> Hi Wayne,
> 
> Great questions! I don't know what scientific tests have been done that isolate the specific component. If the person, who is a member of this forum, decides to share that information I'm sure he'll weigh in ;-)


 
Unless it was done through actual scientific tests, It may very well be theory....I to know people that have done and contunue to do this and again, it isn't as all may seem it to be..

Thomas, I agree to a certain degree about false responses and what not, but a detection dog regardless of odor has to be kept to a certain standard for purpose of credibility. Even certified through organizations, but don't want to bring that up as most vary, however if there is no credibility established and/or standard, then it is backyard training and theory..............of which can be very successful, however can't compare it to say a narcotics or explosive detection K9.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

I have never seen these type of dogs that I mentioned earlier as far as tobacco, phones and bed bugs. I know that bed bug dogs are used in NYC in large populated living buildings, Phones are used in the DOC and Tobacco at ports of entry as far as the limit of two cartons supposedly when returning from a foreign port. I know that they do exist but have no idea to the extent they are used for I have never dabbled in these types of detection. Just know of them existing. Thats as far as my knowledge gos on these types of dogs.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Harry Keely said:


> Tobacco at ports of entry as far as the limit of two cartons supposedly when returning from a foreign port.


That would be interesting, I wonder if the dogs only alert on larger amounts of odor, so the guy with one pack of cigarettes in his suitcase or pocket isn't alerted on, but the guy with 4 cartons is? Or do they just alert on the odor regardless of amount, and then a more detailed search is done.


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> That would be interesting, I wonder if the dogs only alert on larger amounts of odor, so the guy with one pack of cigarettes in his suitcase or pocket isn't alerted on, but the guy with 4 cartons is? Or do they just alert on the odor regardless of amount, and then a more detailed search is done.


 
Initial inprinting plays a role, but if something is there, regardless of an alert the dog will show change of behavior and it is the HANDLER's responsability to identify possible xxxxx. (ODOR)

When a bomb dog first finds his cache, hundreds/thousands of pounds of explosives, it is so much for them they don't know where to go to source to final respond but there IS a definate change of behavior... You will know it!


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Jody Butler said:


> Initial inprinting plays a role, but if something is there, regardless of an alert the dog will show change of behavior and it is the HANDLER's responsability to identify possible xxxxx. (ODOR)


That's what I figured, I just wondered if there was a way they could train the dog to ignore trace amounts (one cigarette) and go for the bigger stashes (cartons) or if they just alerted on everything, and then the handlers sorted it out.

Considering how many people smoke, would seem like they would have to search a LOT of bags, using a lot of manpower, due to valid hits, but on legal amounts, just to find that occasional person bringing in larger illegal amounts.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

I worked for a guy that trained termite dogs...was very accurate in the field.

used the actual bugs, and damaged/wood/waste...


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## Mary Buck (Apr 7, 2010)

Nosework is a fun sport...especially for retired dogs. The first scent taught is Birch . 

Nice looking Mal there


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Don't know Kadi, but what I do know there is a ton of dogs in the ports especially Miami. I remember getting off a cruise and we wlaked down to the baggage area. There it was a bunch of dogs running all over peoples bags. Me & the wife sat back and watched while another doing started talking smack. Office took him off to the side and had some words, don't know what he said but after that he shut the hell up real quick LOL. Mostly labs and if I remember right 1 or 2 malis, no GSD or DS.


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