# IPO Commentary



## Jim Engel (Nov 14, 2007)

http://www.angelplace.net/usca/ToBeOrNotToBe.htm


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## Nick Hrycaj (Mar 30, 2014)

I am uneducated as to IPOs rules or intended use or history. Still, I disagree with what I hear as your assertion that stick hits are the only way to show a dog's courage. Look for example at mike Suttle from Logan haus decoying in his training and selection. The YouTube videos rarely if ever have stick hits and yet I see no "candy ass dogs" that a lack of stick hits is supposed to generate...


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## Jim Engel (Nov 14, 2007)

My suggestion is that you run this by Mr. Suttle and report back to us....


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

Nick Hrycaj said:


> I am uneducated as to IPOs rules or intended use or history. Still, I disagree with what I hear as your assertion that stick hits are the only way to show a dog's courage. Look for example at mike Suttle from Logan haus decoying in his training and selection. The YouTube videos rarely if ever have stick hits and yet I see no "candy ass dogs" that a lack of stick hits is supposed to generate...


IF they took out the stick hits and instead started screaming bloody murder and hitting the dog hard with random objects on the ground. I would agree the stick hits wouldn't be necessary anymore...but since they are contemplating removing the stick hits and replacing them with NOTHING...It will only ruin the sport and the breed....since so many people only use their chosen sport as a means of testing their dogs.


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## Nick Hrycaj (Mar 30, 2014)

Ben, I can agree its a better argument that having no adversive factors during the bite or fight leaves out an important test of how the dog will do under pressure. My hang up is the specific item of the stick is not the end all of being able to apply pressure. Would sending the helper from the hide toward the dog in an aggressive manner pre-bite also show defensive drive and the courage to take on a big encroaching adversary?


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

Nick Hrycaj said:


> Ben, I can agree its a better argument that having no adversive factors during the bite or fight leaves out an important test of how the dog will do under pressure. My hang up is the specific item of the stick is not the end all of being able to apply pressure. Would sending the helper from the hide toward the dog in an aggressive manner pre-bite also show defensive drive and the courage to take on a big encroaching adversary?


Well they have already watered down the stick hits but not using a actual wooden stick anymore and only being able to hit the dog a certain number of times. Sure I mean it would be great if they could have the helper come out of the blind in a aggressive manner. They still might in AWDF shows but I am not 100% sure on that. 

I think dog sports are similar to martial arts in some ways you can make the harder and more practical for real life fights or you can make them softer and easier to appeal to a wider crowd.


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

Nick Hrycaj said:


> Ben, I can agree its a better argument that having no adversive factors during the bite or fight leaves out an important test of how the dog will do under pressure. My hang up is the specific item of the stick is not the end all of being able to apply pressure. Would sending the helper from the hide toward the dog in an aggressive manner pre-bite also show defensive drive and the courage to take on a big encroaching adversary?


I agree that the heart of the argument is not the stick.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

stick hits are not the only way to show a dogs courage, although in the sport of IPO I "think" they are the only thing that attempts to show the dogs courage, in that sport. (not IPO guy).

what you see in Mikes videos is pressure put on the dog. Mental and physical, and you do not see any real signs of stress in the dogs. 

I am willing to bet that if Mike is truly wanting to test courage, for courage itself, the things done might be a little different than what you see in most of the videos online.

I would imagine he would force the dog to let go, or keep him from biting altogether and then go after him...and see the determination and courage of the dog under opposition or downright threat to dog itself...

also in the way of courage testing I am sure that whatever Mike is doing takes far more courage than it takes a IPO dog to make it through a drive with stick hits as done in IPO. 

The point I think is that the stick hits is the only thing that IPO has that sort of shows courage in a dog.


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## Paul Cipparone (Feb 13, 2011)

Started when Mondio Ring had the first meeting involving reps from different countries / sports to contribute or voice what they would like to see, or not see in the new sport . Germany wanted to remove the clatter stick hits ,( for obvious reasons as well as to maintain a platform on the Palisade , to remove the return jump & landing , the Dutch to remove the esquive & add more jump/ water exercises. 
The Mondio sport has turned into a clown show for entertainment purposes , & i'm sure many are pleased.
I witnessed a schH trial in the early '80s Judged by a german judge , now residing in the U.S. turn the courage test into a back - up catch , & that's when 6 longtime trainers/ competitors left the sport. That's when i started to train for French Ring. I see similar watering down of the French Sport happening .


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## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

Train, title, compete. Screw the political crap and excuses :smile:


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

Faisal Khan said:


> Train, title, compete. Screw the political crap and excuses :smile:


hahahaha


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## Brian Smith (May 26, 2013)

It sounds to me that we are trying to equate a sport trial courage test to a real world courage test. What Mike does and is looking at and testing is completely different than what a sport trial is evaluating. One involves training a routine with boundaries and rules and the other is a spontaneous no holds barred fight to stress/pressure the dog and attempt to show weaknesses. 
I attended a seminar last year where on of the lecturers said that when he tests a dog for police/military work he does not abide by any one test or group of tests. He tries to come up with new tests each time to make sure the vendors can't prepare the dog and make them look better than they actually are. He understands that a "trained for" event can make a good dog look great and a weak dog look good. 
If the stick hits are what the sport has for a courage test then they should absolutely be kept until a suitable replacement can be found. I understand that some handlers may consider this an actual "test" for how their dog would react in a real situation but I hope they are in the minority. 
In terms of watering down the breed I think it's a little arrogant to think that a change in one sport carries so much weight. Again this is a sport test. Would it mean that weak dogs can now compete? Absolutely. It still doesn't mean that this one test actually shows a dogs courage and without it there will never be any good dogs. 
To me, the handlers selecting the dogs are what will make or break the breed. Settling for show dog looks will not improve the breed. Proper selection testing is what will allow good working lines to continue and grow. I also think that handlers will move on to other sports or new sports will emerge that better shows what a strong working dog should look like. This change may just be the downfall of this particular sport. 
It would seem that titles may be more important than the strength of the breed.


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

Brian Smith said:


> It sounds to me that we are trying to equate a sport trial courage test to a real world courage test. What Mike does and is looking at and testing is completely different than what a sport trial is evaluating. One involves training a routine with boundaries and rules and the other is a spontaneous no holds barred fight to stress/pressure the dog and attempt to show weaknesses.
> I attended a seminar last year where on of the lecturers said that when he tests a dog for police/military work he does not abide by any one test or group of tests. He tries to come up with new tests each time to make sure the vendors can't prepare the dog and make them look better than they actually are. He understands that a "trained for" event can make a good dog look great and a weak dog look good.
> If the stick hits are what the sport has for a courage test then they should absolutely be kept until a suitable replacement can be found. I understand that some handlers may consider this an actual "test" for how their dog would react in a real situation but I hope they are in the minority.
> In terms of watering down the breed I think it's a little arrogant to think that a change in one sport carries so much weight. Again this is a sport test. Would it mean that weak dogs can now compete? Absolutely. It still doesn't mean that this one test actually shows a dogs courage and without it there will never be any good dogs.
> ...


You can't breed or register your dogs without a IPO title in certain countries....the dog will be spending a big part of his her life in the sport. If you water it down it will mean weaker but maybe prettier animals are getting bred. All of the sports get watered down to a certain degree...maybe some of the newer ones haven't yet. There is pressure to bring in more people.


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## jack van strien (Apr 9, 2009)

Even if the tests are being downgraded does not mean you should have a lesser dog does it?
You can and should still breed only with the best dogs if you want to ensure your breed remains up to par.
I have never entered a competion wondering if my dog would bite or not.If i was not convinced he would do well( as far as courage is concerned)i would never have competed with him.
As an individual or as a club you can make sure the dogs you present are doing well.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

jack van strien said:


> Even if the tests are being downgraded does not mean you should have a lesser dog does it?
> You can and should still breed only with the best dogs if you want to ensure your breed remains up to par.
> I have never entered a competion wondering if my dog would bite or not.If i was not convinced he would do well( as far as courage is concerned)i would never have competed with him.
> As an individual or as a club you can make sure the dogs you present are doing well.


hear, hear!!!


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Gillian Schuler said:


> hear, hear!!!


Are they really being "downgraded". I haven't read whether the stick "hits" are to be withdrawn or the sticks themselves.

As I see it, the stick that threatens the dog before he attempts to bite, could be a greater threat to the stick hits whilst the dog is biting. I have occasionally seen a dog pause or be threatened by the stick before he goes in to bite but, whilst biting, I have never seen a dog loosen or leave off biting.

This isn't the only way to test a dog for nerves. Good breeders test them in Training and I can honestly say that the tests our ogs went through in Training were far tougher than those in the Trial itself.

As Jack Strien said, a dog that doesn't come through unscathed in training should never be taken to Trial.

After all, the training should in each discipline, outrate the trial's components.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Agreed. A watered down sport doesn't preclude those that care from breeding good dogs.


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

Yeah so that must be why so many departments have switched to the malinois and dutch shepherds. Nothing to do with watering down IPO. They just liked the colors better in the other breeds that fawn and brindle makes the bad guys shake in their boots.


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