# Know Thine Enemy



## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

So tomorrow, one of the residents in the teaching hospital is giving a talk entitled: "Wacky Pet Foods: What Our Clients are Feeding and Why...an Interactive Discussion of Unconventional, Raw and Boutique Diets." Lord have mercy on my soul. I've seen some of his previous comments on VIN. Not pretty. I'll be sure to report back in...


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## Greg Leavitt (Aug 31, 2006)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> So tomorrow, one of the residents in the teaching hospital is giving a talk entitled: "Wacky Pet Foods: What Our Clients are Feeding and Why...an Interactive Discussion of Unconventional, Raw and Boutique Diets." Lord have mercy on my soul. I've seen some of his previous comments on VIN. Not pretty. I'll be sure to report back in...


Make sure you remind everyone of the fact that when feeding raw you cant feed dogs bones cause' they will splinter and jab through their throats and that you cant feed chicken raw cause' they will be get salminella sp? LOL


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## Ted White (May 2, 2006)

good luck holding back, Maren. Ask if he knows a fresh source for tripe...


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

If you like to go to these things prepared:

the composition of bone: http://www.thepetcenter.com/xra/bonecomp.html
the composition of chicken (minus bone): http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-C00001-01c20BW.html

If you are in a mood to crunch numbers, you'll see that raw chicken is a far superior diet for managing urine crystals in dogs. I mentioned these links to you before in PM. Fascinating to me.

g2g My 7 mo old son has decided my desk chair is edible


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## Lynn Cheffins (Jul 11, 2006)

geez - carnivorous animals eating raw meat - how "wacky".... 

you're gonna have a sore tongue from biting it so much in that lecture ;-)


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Bite tongue. Jeez. In my last lecture class, I would hop out of my seat, interrupt the instructor...  5 years later, she recognized me at a store! :lol:


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Kick his A$$! ;-)


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

> Kick his A$$!


^^^ What he said :lol:


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## Ted White (May 2, 2006)

What response do we have for those who bring up bacteria like Salmonella?


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Remember back a couple months ago when the peanut butter was contaminated with salmonella? The FDA pretty much released a statement that said try not to feed it to your pets (many use it as a Kong stuffer), but that healthy dogs and cats generally do not get salmonella. Now E. coli is perhaps another issue and I haven't found a satisfactory answer to that other than "wolves don't get E. coli and carnivores have shorter digestive tracts."


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## Ted White (May 2, 2006)

Interesting because there are harmful and beneficial strains of e. coli. The bummer is that there's no funding for some of this research... It would sure be great to read up on it.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Dogs (like any mammal) can be infected with E.coli and salmonella and other food pathogens. There have been several cases of dogs infected with salmonella from kibble and three (that I know of) kibble recalls because of salmonella in the past two years or so.

The reason dogs rarely ARE affected by food pathogens is their short, enzyme-based digestive system. 

Ours is loooooong and slow. Loads of time for pathogens to colonize.

A dog's transit time from one end to the other (of raw food) is only three to five hours or so. 

The transit time for a human is about 20-30 hours (if the human is active and healthy; longer, otherwise).

Kibble diets take far longer for the dog to digest, BTW. Dry, baked, extruded kibble is in contact with the intestines for two to three times as long as fresh food.


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## Ted White (May 2, 2006)

Good stuff! Aren't all digestive systems enzyme-based? Please don't get me wrong, I'm a BIG fan of RAW. Big big big


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Ted White said:


> Good stuff! Aren't all digestive systems enzyme-based?


Yes, ours is too, but different:

The dog’s stomach acid is much stronger, with a pH of 1-2 (ours is 4-5), and extremely corrosive. That kind of acid kills off most bacteria and helps to digest bones. Also dog digestion enzymes in the stomach are stronger so they can function in this acid (and make up for the lack of salivary enzymes that humans have to get started on grains). And the intestine of the dog doesn't have loooong passages that work more through time than acid and enzymes.


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## Ted White (May 2, 2006)

Connie, the suff that you know... WOW! Thanks for that


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Ted White said:


> the suff that you know...


Yes, it's pure natural genius. :lol: 

Actually, it's my biggest interest. I'm sure I spend more time on canine nutrition and allergies than on my paid work. :lol:


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## Ted White (May 2, 2006)

Does that one link of Anne's have a point about the bones? He supports raw meat, but not whole raw bones. He has some compelling points to the casual observer. 

Basicaly he distills the bone down to 70% calcium and undigestible collagen and fat. He's basically saying they have no nutritional value other than a source of calcium.

I don't agree with his assertion that bone fragments might survive the travel through the GI system, though. I've never seen a bone fragment in poop. Amazingly, they are completely digested.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Yes, ours is too, but different:
> 
> The dog’s stomach acid is much stronger, with a pH of 1-2 (ours is 4-5), and extremely corrosive. That kind of acid kills off most bacteria and helps to digest bones. Also dog digestion enzymes in the stomach are stronger so they can function in this acid (and make up for the lack of salivary enzymes that humans have to get started on grains). And the intestine of the dog doesn't have loooong passages that work more through time than acid and enzymes.


Connie, I did some quick searching in my Guyton medical physiology textbook (we use a human medical physiology text instead of a veterinary one), and it said the pH of a human stomach is 0.8, which is pretty similar to other numbers I had heard (ranging 1-2 or sometimes slightly higher). I suspect it's more the length of the GI tract and not the stomach acidity.


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## Ted White (May 2, 2006)

The actual acid secreted in the stomach has a pH around 1.4. However, the body monitors the pH of the "stew" in your stomach, and to protect the stomach from its own acid, if the pH drops below 2, the stomach quits secreting more acid. So unless you have a disease,the pH in the human stomach is always higher than 2.


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

I've seen bone fragments in poo before.


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## Ted White (May 2, 2006)

Other interesting facts I found online: Dogs have a very acidic stomach (pH >1), an environment that is not friendly to any bacteria. Salmonella cannot survive at that pH level and at minimum needs a pH of 4 or higher to grow. Optimal growth doesn’t occur until the environment reaches the pH range of 6.5-7.5 (7). 

From this excellent article: http://www.mountaindogfood.com/HealthCare/Salmonella.htm

Doesn't explain how it survives our stomaches, though... Our stomaches are 2.0


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## Ted White (May 2, 2006)

A quick thought I had is to take the meat, bone, etc in optimal proportions and grind it.

#1 I can use more weight bearing bone like chicken legs which are cheap.

#2 The only time I personally ever witnessed bones were when a dog vomited or has really loose stool. It stands to reason that in one of those two situations, a bone would be potentially more dangerous.

So for giggles, I tried grinding up chicken legs. Worked fine, actually. I then added liver, veggies and an apple (no seeds). Then added pork and fish. All ground to a paste.

I'm going to try this for a bit. I'll add an egg or dairy. And supplements as per usual.


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## Lynn Cheffins (Jul 11, 2006)

I feed alot of ground meat due to availability, etc but keep in mind that it doesn't do anything for their teeth - I give meat on the bone a couple times a week or so to help with keeping the teeth clean. Most chicken leg bones are pretty wimpy - the only weight they are holding up is a chicken.....


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

_
I don't agree with his assertion that bone fragments might survive the travel through the GI system, though. I've never seen a bone fragment in poop. _

In this house, bone fragments too large to digest get vomited up along with a bit of bile, usually at about two am, waking me up so I am aware of it, but not aware enough to avoid stepping in it when I get up a few hours later.


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

leslie cassian said:


> _I don't agree with his assertion that bone fragments might survive the travel through the GI system, though. I've never seen a bone fragment in poop. _
> 
> In this house, bone fragments too large to digest get vomited up along with a bit of bile, usually at about two am, waking me up so I am aware of it, but not aware enough to avoid stepping in it when I get up a few hours later.


boy, ain't THAT the truth!! ;-) 

the only bone "fragments" i've ever seen in poop have pretty much been pre-cooked bones ppl have fed to their dogs, ie, ham bones (don't EVEN ask me about that one), steak or chicken. again--these bones only caused a problem when they were already cooked. NOT raw.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Alright gang, here's what went down. Almost everyone in the audience (there were about 50 people) was either a clinical professor, a resident, an intern, or a third or fourth year student. LOTS of white coats. So when he asks, "does anyone feed a homecooked or raw diet?" and my lone hand went up, man, there was a lot of head swiveling. Talk about an increase to my sympathetic nervous system!! But I stood my ground and talked to him after class for a little bit (plus I got a free can of Innova EVO venison). I was pleased, however, because he mentioned how many commercial diets are really misleading. For instance, there are a number of canned foods in particular that are not meant to be maintenance diets (foods for just supplemental feeding), but clients pick them up thinking they are and they can end up with nutritional deficiencies. There were a couple more things said, though I may save those for another time as I gotta run for the time being!


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## Ted White (May 2, 2006)

no disparaging comments? No purina cruises offered? Geez


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Lynn Cheffins said:


> I feed alot of ground meat due to availability, etc but keep in mind that it doesn't do anything for their teeth - I give meat on the bone a couple times a week or so to help with keeping the teeth clean. Most chicken leg bones are pretty wimpy - the only weight they are holding up is a chicken.....


Lynn, the meat also is good for the teeth because of enzimes in it. One more thing destroyed by processing. Connie could elaborate on this more, I'm betting.


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## Lynn Cheffins (Jul 11, 2006)

Bob I feed mostly meat as the basis of the dogs diet is ground bone in raw meat (I don't feed kibble) and while their teeth don't gunk up to the degree they would on kibble I still find that feeding some meals of meat on the bone keeps the teeth cleaner. Tonight everyones teeth got flossed with goose feathers thanks to my hunter neighbours.


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## Ted White (May 2, 2006)

So you just throw the birds out there feathers and all?


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

:lol: :lol: :lol: "Flossing on goose feathers"! :lol: :lol: :lol: 
Don't think I've heard that before! Wish I could get back to raw but, as far as teeth go, the three times a week flossing on jute sleeves keeps them pretty nice. ;-)


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Bone fragments - I've seen them. My dogs DO NOT CHEW. On the rare occassional I see a bone fragment, I add apple cider vinegar to the dog's food for a few days. I might see a bone fragment every... year? or so? Or when re-starting on raw after a eriod of kibble.

Maren you're awesome! I can't wait to hear more about the lecture when you have time.


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## Lynn Cheffins (Jul 11, 2006)

Ted White said:


> So you just throw the birds out there feathers and all?


yes and I have to do extensive raking afterwards :lol: - alot of feathers on a goose but free meat is free meat and the dogs really like it. Its quite neat to see a dog figure out the technique of how to eat a whole bird.
They are working on chickens in this pic http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b385/sewtech/000_0020.jpg


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## Ted White (May 2, 2006)

cool pic lynn !


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## Alicia Mertz (Mar 28, 2006)

Ted White said:


> Connie, the suff that you know... WOW! Thanks for that


Right?!? LOL She amazes me. Okay...back to reading...


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