# Tug rewards



## Woody Taylor (Mar 28, 2006)

> Tim, ALL the dog on our club with strong prey drive have excellent obedience for their tugs. It's as simple as witholding the reward until the correct exercise is offered.


I yanked this comment of Bob's out of another thread on food rewards as it related to my question...

How do you all reward with tug? I mean, specifically, how do you do it, how quickly do you do it, how long do you play tug, etc.?

I need to switch to something else as my dog does not get revved up by food if there are other distractions around, and my dog gets waaayyy to revved up by the ball to concentrate. But...one of the advantages of food reward is that it's fast. Fast to produce, fast to consume. A tug is harder to produce (yank out of a pocket) and harder to consume (because setting up the dog for a tug and letting them tug and outing them takes time). So can you all walk me through the steps you'd take to do a tug reward? I'll take film I can break down if necessary.


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## Sarah Hall (Apr 12, 2006)

I reward my pup with a tug when he does a behavior correctly. Being a young pup, I play with him for a minute or two before moving on to another behavior. What I like to tell people (and something that was told to me by a trainer long,long ago) is you have 4 seconds from the time the dog does the behavior correctly to reward him before he thinks he's just getting a treat/praise/tug for the hell of it. With EDDs, NDDs, and some dual-purpose PSDs, a ball/tug is given IMMEDIATELY when a correct signal (bark, sit, down, touch, etc.) is given by the dog to indicate the target scent (narcotics, etc).


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

I really like the euro-joe training vest I saw someone use with the ball drop. The dog can't grab the ball on their own, the dog can't bite your hand to try to get it, n to release the ball you pull a cord that's by your side so your hand never goes near the ball, the ball drop rewards the dog from your shoulder area where their focus should be in a focused heel.

If the dog goes nuts trying to get it then just withhold it, be calm, wear a scratch apron if you have to avoid getting scratched by a jumpy dog, just ignore the behavior till the dog does what you told em to do, assuming they know the command. If they don't know the command then go back to basics n teach the position before doing it in drive work.

I sent you a PM also Woody.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Sarah Hall said:


> I reward my pup with a tug when he does a behavior correctly. Being a young pup, I play with him for a minute or two before moving on to another behavior. What I like to tell people (and something that was told to me by a trainer long,long ago) is you have 4 seconds from the time the dog does the behavior correctly to reward him before he thinks he's just getting a treat/praise/tug for the hell of it. With EDDs, NDDs, and some dual-purpose PSDs, a ball/tug is given IMMEDIATELY when a correct signal (bark, sit, down, touch, etc.) is given by the dog to indicate the target scent (narcotics, etc).


That 4 seconds max is a great point.

That's my own big reason for beginning with markers........there isn't much rewarding I can do in under 4 seconds.   But I can definitely mark in maybe 2 seconds, *then* fish around for the reward.


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## Sarah Hall (Apr 12, 2006)

Very true, that's why I like using clicker training for pet dogs. Most pet dog owners cannot get a treat out and get it to their dog's mouth in those 4 precious seconds. I've actually had a great dane I trained that would drool anytime she heard any sound CLOSE to a clicker.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Sarah Hall said:


> Very true, that's why I like using clicker training for pet dogs. Most pet dog owners cannot get a treat out and get it to their dog's mouth in those 4 precious seconds. I've actually had a great dane I trained that would drool anytime she heard any sound CLOSE to a clicker.


That is hilarious! :lol: 

I haven't used clickers, but I did hear their use advocated recently (when I was reviewing ob training videos) by a well-known trainer who normally hasn't much use for them (because they are not always there, in your hand, mainly) for "mainly men who can't get their voices to sound happy/praising" for markers. 

Cracked me up, because I have definitely run into a couple of those people. "Yes" or "good" sounds like a drill sergeant........ :lol:


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## Woody Taylor (Mar 28, 2006)

Sarah Hall said:


> Very true, that's why I like using clicker training for pet dogs. Most pet dog owners cannot get a treat out and get it to their dog's mouth in those 4 precious seconds. I've actually had a great dane I trained that would drool anytime she heard any sound CLOSE to a clicker.


I can't/won't use a clicker for the same reasons I can't/won't use an ecollar, believe it or not...1., I lose everything all the time, and 2. my little kids are disruptive badgers and they'd get that clicker from whereever I put it and start hammering on the thing all day long. They cannot steal my voice (yet) although I guess I could yell myself hoarse at them sometime in the future.

So...you all think 4 seconds is appropriate? Why not 1.5? why not 6? I'm serious, not pushing back on this. Getting a tug out of my pocket (or a ball) is hard to do quickly and in a way that doesn't agitate up the dog.


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## Stacia Porter (Apr 8, 2006)

Woody Taylor said:


> So...you all think 4 seconds is appropriate? Why not 1.5? why not 6? I'm serious, not pushing back on this. Getting a tug out of my pocket (or a ball) is hard to do quickly and in a way that doesn't agitate up the dog.


Honestly, I've never put the reward IN my pocket. Not food, not the ball. We've always had it out in our hand already, given the command, and treated immediately (actually, most treating in this house is by spitting the treat out to teh dog). Same with the ball. I hold it, give command, he obeys, he immediately gets it. When he gets overzealous and starts focusing more on the reward than on me, session is over. I suppose i have given commands with the treat "hidden" in my mouth, though.

Is there a problem with dog seeing the reward? We were never told that it was...


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

I like the vest shown in this photo from Euro-Joe with the ball drop. The ball drop can be placed on front or back of the vest... intended so that if the dog comes into heel position and sits too far forward you can put the drop on the back n the dog corrects himself to sit further back. The dog looks up because he knows thats where the ball comes from. There is no body language to show the dog they are getting the ball because the release is a cable on the opposite side of the vest. I don't see a problem with the dog seeing the reward, look at Bernard Flinks, he has trained some excellent dogs and keeps the tug up by his chest where you would place the ball drop to teach the dog to focus up there.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Woody, Iput the tig in my left arm pit. When he is correct I simply raise my left arm and the yug falls out. Then I give him a lot of praise and a bunch of at-a-boys. We tug and play and when he releases it I put him right back in fuss or what ever command I want him to do. When he's done it the reward comes right back. The fuss command is when I have it under my arm, all other commands I have it in my hand. IF he don't do what I ask I simply say no and walk away for a second and put him back in drive and try again, and again, and again  Be consistant


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## Woody Taylor (Mar 28, 2006)

Mike Schoonbrood said:


> I don't see a problem with the dog seeing the reward, look at Bernard Flinks, he has trained some excellent dogs and keeps the tug up by his chest where you would place the ball drop to teach the dog to focus up there.


This is an interesting question to me as well...curious to hear Bob's and Connie's and other's perspectives...intuitively it makes more sense to me to have the dog focused on me and the reward "appears" than to have a reward the dog watches (this was discussed in the food rewards thread)...but yes, as Bob described it, Flinks does use object lures (and I guess he also said Balabanov worked via eye contact?). Ed's basic ob video did both (when Cindy was doing ob on a course, she was luring the dog with the ball, though it was kept up near her face).

My only thing is just what I hear repeated over and over--having the dog make eye contact with you, and seek to make eye contact with you, is good on many levels.

These are just observations, not critical of anything you are saying.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

I didn't read my post before I sent it. I guess by now you could tell that.  Tig is actually Tug, etc.............


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## Woody Taylor (Mar 28, 2006)

Jerry Lyda said:


> Woody, Iput the tig in my left arm pit. When he is correct I simply raise my left arm and the yug falls out. Then I give him a lot of praise and a bunch of at-a-boys. We tug and play and when he releases it I put him right back in fuss or what ever command I want him to do. When he's done it the reward comes right back. The fuss command is when I have it under my arm, all other commands I have it in my hand. IF he don't do what I ask I simply say no and walk away for a second and put him back in drive and try again, and again, and again  Be consistant


Great thoughts, Jerry. Do you wait for eye contact? And how long you play after you've dropped it?


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Yes, I wait till everything is right and then and only then is he rewarded. A good tape on this is by Ivan Balabanof call "Clear Communications."


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Woody Taylor said:


> ....So...you all think 4 seconds is appropriate? Why not 1.5? why not 6? I'm serious, not pushing back on this. Getting a tug out of my pocket (or a ball) is hard to do quickly and in a way that doesn't agitate up the dog.


I've read about actual research (but I don't remember how authoritative or broad it was) backing up the under-four-seconds idea as well as the rule-of-thirty (dogs usually needing to repeat the command-behavior thirty times before he really knows it 100%).

But of course 1.5 seconds is better! :lol: The idea was that 4 seconds was the outside edge before the dog doesn't really know why the heck he's getting a reward/praise/correction.

This is all backup (to me) for my solid belief in good marker-setting with the dog who is beginning training. The marker (which the dog now knows through repeated exposure means that something nice will follow: praise, a toy, a tug, a treat) CAN be instantaneous, whereas the reward can't always be.

I'd like to read more discussion about the reward being a visible "lure" or not, too. Bob posted a great article yesterday about "Rewards, Lures, and Bribes" in the articles forum.

I not only keep the reward hidden -- I also vary the delivery method. I want the dog focused on me, and not on the reward or the reward source (either of my hands, for example). But I'm open! 

And now that I think about it, I've certainly used a treat to get focus on my eyes. That'd be an object lure, I guess, on a low level.

More about object lures.....?


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## Woody Taylor (Mar 28, 2006)

Connie Sutherland said:


> More about object lures.....?


That's just my n00b speak for a object treat that is offered as a reward to the dog prior to and during the command (I hold a ball up to my shoulder, say heel, start walking and the dog heels because they are fixated on getting the ball, which I drop after awhile.). That's what I meant, may not be the right term.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Woody Taylor said:


> Connie Sutherland said:
> 
> 
> > More about object lures.....?
> ...


That was what I thought you meant.  

I meant "more opinions" ! Sorry..........

I like the thread. 8)


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Call me jackass, but 4 seconds is way too long. 2 seconds is about it. the marker needs to be there as quick as possible, but the food doesn't have to be lightning fast.

Food drive is a calmer drive, and that is why many of us start with it. Prey drive causes tension, and you can get slow sits and downs because of the anticipation of the reward.

As far as the children, well if the clicker is in your training bag in your closet/trunk whatever, this is a good time to practice compulsion if they get to it. (read spanking   ) Not an excuse if I was your trainer, so get with it!!! LOL

I don't like artificial methods of getting the dog to "appear" to be looking at me. Maybe I am a purist.

With the marker training, it is a good thing to gradually begin to space out the time between marker and reward when using the food. I found this to help on my clumsy days getting the dang tug out from behind me. 

Ivans video's are a very good investment for learning this stuff. Much better than us hacks on the internet. :twisted: :twisted:


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## Woody Taylor (Mar 28, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Call me jackass,...
> 
> Food drive is a calmer drive, and that is why many of us start with it. Prey drive causes tension, and you can get slow sits and downs because of the anticipation of the reward.
> 
> ...


Ah Jeff, we now have something to cut and paste in your threads to go along with "you're absolutely right, Jeff" or whatever :lol: Jackass. :lol:

I will be serious (but not explicit because you will cut and paste it and use it against me) when I say thanks for this post. I did not know food drive was considered to be calmer, I just thought my dog didn't really have it and I had pretty much trained it out of her this winter when I didn't regularly carry a treat bag.

Can't beat up the kids yet, they are too young, but they are gadget freaks and we made the classic mistake of letting them goof with everything gadget-y in the house. Two independent toddlers + clickers makes for one confused dog. 

How do you all "stage" the tug? Jerry's dropping it from his armpit, that seems way easier than my way (trying to dig it out of whatever pocket, linking up both handles, and getting it out to offer to the dog in less than 1.5 seconds without the dog jumping on me first, which I can honestly say is not wokring all that well   ). I want to reward a tug FAST and Jerry's way seems pretty darn quick and a lot easier on the fingers.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> ........With the marker training, it is a good thing to gradually begin to space out the time between marker and reward when using the food. I found this to help on my clumsy days getting the dang tug out from behind me. .........:


Absolutely! And the 2 seconds makes sense to me, too; the 4 seconds I read about (and I will try to find that research and remind myself of whether it was a good source and well-done) was the "outside edge."

So does the relative calmness of not invoking prey drive (make sense to me).

Can I hear more about "artificial" methods of making the dog "appear" to be focused on the handler? I didn't get which reward method you meant. When I mark for eye contact in the very early days of training, is that what you mean? Or maybe treats-from-handler's-mouth?

BTW, good post, IMO. And no, you may not use that for future reference. :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

This is the way that I start the focus upward toward my face. He'll get his tug reward when he's looking at me. He'll get this over and over. This will become habit to him. Much later I'll take the tug out of site and hold it in my hand. With proper fussing(doesn't that sound strange) I'll give him a lot of praise and pull the tug out as I'm walking. If he looks at it I'll tell him no look at me. When his eyes come back to me for at least 2 seconds he gets his reward. He's happy I'm happy and we get to start all over again. As we progress I'll insist on longer focus to me. He'll get his reward. I'm happy he's happy and we do it all over again. He'll then look at me and say," Can't you get this right, this is not the way we just did it."
To me dog training is like eating a whole elephant, a little piece at a time.
Build a good foundation the first time and you don't have to go back and fix something. Don't that sound so easy, NOT.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I use the tug in all sorts of ways. I often even hold it out at arms length while heeling. The dog knows he has to keep eye contact and do the behaviour if he wants it. I may pull it out of my pocket, from under my shirt, whatever. I want him to know that it WILL appear, even though I may have the dog do a whole routine before the reward. 
Once I give my "YES", it will come out with in a second or two. NEVER immediately after the marker. That can become misinterpred by the dog as a release command then.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

OK Connie, if you insist.

Treats from the mouth make the dog look there whenever the mouth moves. Sure there may be trainers out there that fix that, but who cares?

Tugs under the arm get the dog to look at your armpit. It also makes for interesting trials when the dog sees that you have not tug under your arm

That "ball vest" is a similar problem. See the dog looking behind the guy? Or where you looking at the cool gadget in hopes that good training could be overridden with STUPID GADGETS.

Did you notice the part where you mark, then start rewarding later and later?? I don't mean hours, but more than enough time to get out a tug from where ever you have it. If you are really struggling to get your tug out that bad, you need to get a better training vest. Just not that hard ALL the time, hell, even I can get it out of my vest most of the time, the hard part is keeping my hand from creeping up and becoming a signal. Always something!!!!!


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I should add that it is less than two seconds to mark the behavior, once that is done you can reward in a reasonable time period. 2 seconds is about where they are not going to have a clue, so try and mark the behavior in under a 1/2 second.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I should add that it is less than two seconds to mark the behavior, once that is done you can reward in a reasonable time period. 2 seconds is about where they are not going to have a clue, so try and mark the behavior in under a 1/2 second.


I definately agree about "a reasonable time period". This is where the random reward comes in. The dog is always thinking that it's going to be here riiiiiight....NOW!
The creeping hand is called the quick draw at our club. I haven't seen anyone that can outdraw the dog if they see you reaching.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I put the tug under my shirt once...........once. 

It would have been nice if Buko would of at least hit the tug, but NOOOOOOOOOOO, he got my hand and stomach. Nothin but joy.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

:lol: Another quick draw gunned down again! :lol:


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Boot hill bound for sure.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> ...........Did you notice the part where you mark, then start rewarding later and later?? I don't mean hours, but more than enough time to get out a tug from where ever you have it. .....


Oh, yes, I noticed! LOL! I consider that an integral part of marker-training.

I get what you mean about artificial focus now.

I start a dog with a marker for looking in my eyes, and continue to mark it, before actual commands are even started. I just didn't know if that was what you meant by artificial focus.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

eff wrote,Tugs under the arm get the dog to look at your armpit. It also makes for interesting trials when the dog sees that you have not tug under your arm 

I use this , Jeff, in the begining work for focus. That gets his head up in my eye direction. When and only when he is looking in my eyes does he get the tug reward. He will soon realize this.

Never ever would I trial a dog during this time. He is in training and doesn't have it all together yet. After he is doing this without the tug under my arm and all other things are correct, then we THINK about a trial. (Schutzhund)

In ASR the dog doesn't have to do this kind of focus work. I want him to know where I am and fuss beside me but at the same time I don't need him looking at me if the bad guy is out there somewhere.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I am using the focused heeling to keep my dog with me. It is working do far. I know a LOT of people start with the tug under the arm, but don't know the transition work to get to the other side. Bad typist strikes again. This was supposed to be in there.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Jeff, you hit on a key trouble spot for ANY type of training. Food, toy or compulsion. The "transition work".


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

Jerry Lyda said:


> In ASR the dog doesn't have to do this kind of focus work. I want him to know where I am and fuss beside me but at the same time I don't need him looking at me if the bad guy is out there somewhere.


What is the ASR view on a focused heel? I'd like to teach this to my pup, was just wondering if it'll get laughed off the ASR field, you know, with it being such a "Real" sport n all LOL. I've seen dogs that can be walked into a tree with the level of focus they have on the handler.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

My point exactly. If they can't see the tree he won't see the bad guy.

ASR heeling. It always looks better with focused heeling but you want loose points for that. You will if the dog is ahead of you or lagging. I say train the focus heel and if you don't get it from him perfectlly in a trial don't worry about it.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I've heard critism of the motivational focus heeling because the dog wont watch the helper during the transports. I had some concerns about that myself but found that my dog has no trouble keeping his eye on this guy that is so close and may attack at any second. It only took two sneak attacks to convince him to watch the bad guy.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

That's one thing that don't take them long to learn.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

I'm not trying to throw a wrench in the monkey works, but I have also heard from several good trainers that you have not more than 2 seconds to correct/reward the dog or the animal will not make the connection.

Also, for fussing, I sometimes keep the ball w/rope on my neck with my chinny chin chin. Keeps the dog looking up & at my face, & is easy to toss with my other hand.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

susan tuck said:


> I'm not trying to throw a wrench in the monkey works, but I have also heard from several good trainers that you have not more than 2 seconds to correct/reward the dog or the animal will not make the connection........


Or maybe one second. That's why using markers is so excellent (for me).

The "yes," marking the second that the behavior happened, can be instant.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

This might be helpful for you, Woody, but anyone use just their tongue as a clicker like you would to tell a horse to go? I haven't started doing this quite yet, but that way, you always have your marker with you. A clicker also sounds rather loud and sharp to me. Perhaps this way you could do the clicking sound more quietly but the dog could hear it just fine.


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