# training discussion



## drew sterner (Aug 26, 2011)

had a convo with a fellow trainer from a different background of dog training than myself. The question is:


Can you extinct the need for a reward and/or correction for a shaped behavior in a canine? Meaning, is at some point the actual act of performing the said behavior enough for the dog to maintain it and be gratified by it enough to consistently perform the behavior? The one exception being you can praise the dog.

What do you think?


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## Chris Keister (Jun 28, 2008)

I would say yes eventually conditioned response to a command would take over but you would lose enthusiasim or "flash" if that was a concern for competition.

Also depends on the individual dog. Would be much easier with a very handler oriented biddable dog.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

drew sterner said:


> had a convo with a fellow trainer from a different background of dog training than myself. The question is:
> 
> 
> Can you extinct the need for a reward and/or correction for a shaped behavior in a canine? Meaning, is at some point the actual act of performing the said behavior enough for the dog to maintain it and be gratified by it enough to consistently perform the behavior? The one exception being you can praise the dog.
> ...


Yes. My dogs work off a marker and eventually the marker is reinforcing enough. One thing that doesn't get discussed enough in regards to marker training is variable reinforcement and the reinforcement ratio. 

Terrasita


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## Jennifer Marshall (Dec 13, 2007)

Yes. Depends on the dog and the behavior. I am at the point now with my 3.5 year old dog that in OB I rarely use a reward. I alternate between ball/tug reward and food reward depending on the exercise we are doing. Praise and a few pats on the side/shoulder are his reward most of the time.

For bitework, the out/recall there is no reward as he does not give a #### about a tug or ball or toy if the decoy is on the field.


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Yes the dog is conditioned plain and simple. (if trained to extent of a true conditioned response).


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## Juan Galvis (Nov 22, 2010)

drew sterner said:


> had a convo with a fellow trainer from a different background of dog training than myself. The question is:
> 
> 
> Can you extinct the need for a reward and/or correction for a shaped behavior in a canine? Meaning, is at some point the actual act of performing the said behavior enough for the dog to maintain it and be gratified by it enough to consistently perform the behavior? The one exception being you can praise the dog.
> ...


Off course it can be done, rewards are faded following schedules of reinforcement. Starting with continous/fixed (every repetition) folllowed by variable/intervals (every fixed number of reps) and ending with random (most reinforcing phase for behaviour duration). How long it takes depends on dog and trainer skill in reading the dog and knowing when to move on to the next or backtrack into a previous one.

In the fading of aversives (escape/avoidance) the above schedule is not applied. You fade the aversive tool based on performance not on a schedule. Meaning you correct or apply pressure as needed if necessary.

I personally teach dogs with rewards initially once im on the random schedule I start introducing escape to add another reinforcement, and then finally proof with avoidance (corrections) if needed (again based on performance).

Now the term many people use "a finished dog" gets a lot of them in trouble, the whole point of training is to use your tool to help dog retain behaviours. No matter how experienced a dog is you should find yourself making judgements as to which phase in the training process you should either back track or move on, to hopefully have your dog perform your trained behaviours in the few minutes of glory you get at trial in the discipline of your choice.

It bears to mention that things are not such cookie cutter as I have described. A dogs performance is not necessarily directed by operant conditioning but a myriad of many more factors. Your skill as a trainer, dogs conformation, health, genetics, environment, neurological processes etc.

If you are interested in learning the many factors involved in animal behaviour look up Dr. Sapolsky in youtube and watch his behaviour class which is all online at stanford university.


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Juan I dont think there is such thing as a finished dog. The trainer/owner might be finished but the dog is always a work in progress. Just like a human athlete or worker always learning new things through experience.


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## Juan Galvis (Nov 22, 2010)

Brian Anderson said:


> Juan I dont think there is such thing as a finished dog. The trainer/owner might be finished but the dog is always a work in progress. Just like a human athlete or worker always learning new things through experience.


Yes we are both in agreement. Although neither the trainer ( I guess unless dead) No living creature is ever finished learning as long as it is alive.


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## Marta Wajngarten (Jul 30, 2006)

Sure, take training a jump as an example. Do enough repetition with high value reward, the value of the reward is transferred to the jump itself, dog now finds the jump itself rewarding without having to be rewarded for jumping. 

For my dog when I tell him to jump, it's more of a permission for him to access the reward of jumping. I don't have to reward him for it. He sees a jump and he wants to go. 

For another dog, heeling could be highly self rewarding with enough repetition especially if it's the velcro type of dog.

I don't think you can necessarily say this about every behaviour or command in every dog, it's possible that in some highly aloof self serving dogs you might never come close to this but as a general concept I think it's very possible.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

As to the finished dog, I think that depends on the dog and his willingness. I certainly reach a point with a dog where very little is "training" anymore and I don't really have to worry about compliance. They know their part of the job and they are there to back me up. I guess in herding we talk in terms of biddability. We build on conditioned behaviors and work within the dogs instinctive responses. However, a dog that is truly in it for himself and has no partnership with his handler probably wouldn't last long with most people for long. In trialing, I may tune up certain things but with the mature advanced level dog, that does'nt amount to much.


T


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## Juan Galvis (Nov 22, 2010)

Marta Wajngarten said:


> Sure, take training a jump as an example. Do enough repetition with high value reward, the value of the reward is transferred to the jump itself, dog now finds the jump itself rewarding without having to be rewarded for jumping.
> 
> For my dog when I tell him to jump, it's more of a permission for him to access the reward of jumping. I don't have to reward him for it. He sees a jump and he wants to go.
> 
> ...


Great point! some behaviours are reinforcing in itself....Border collies herding...etc something interesting when looking for example at creating behaviour with R+ is to see how chasing the squirrel is so reinforcing for some dogs without actually never ending on acquisition of the reward, but the chase itself is rewarding. One great mentor use to say: "punishment or reinforcement for a dog is not based on our opinion, rather the dog's"


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## drew sterner (Aug 26, 2011)

Juan Galvis said:


> Great point! some behaviours are reinforcing in itself....Border collies herding...etc something interesting when looking for example at creating behaviour with R+ is to see how chasing the squirrel is so reinforcing for some dogs without actually never ending on acquisition of the reward, but the chase itself is rewarding. One great mentor use to say: "punishment or reinforcement for a dog is not based on our opinion, rather the dog's"



And here is where i may disagree with some. The talk of "transferring" over that reward. Do you believe that dog just likes to jump, or that he may eventually get a reward for doing it, or do you believe he really just wants to work for you?? 

Im with the variable, but to extinct reward *completely*?? if we are talking about a man made shaped behavior that is not rewarding for the dog, (chasing a squirrel is satisfying an urge that the dog would naturally do anyway) doesn't the dog have to expect something will eventually come to continue to be motivated to repeat this behavior that is not naturally satisfying to the dog?? Shouldn't every canine have some type of threshold, where the variable threshold is reached and de-training begins?


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## Charles Guyer (Nov 6, 2009)

drew sterner said:


> had a convo with a fellow trainer from a different background of dog training than myself. The question is:
> 
> 
> Can you extinct the need for a reward and/or correction for a shaped behavior in a canine? Meaning, is at some point the actual act of performing the said behavior enough for the dog to maintain it and be gratified by it enough to consistently perform the behavior? The one exception being you can praise the dog.
> ...


No


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

drew sterner said:


> And here is where i may disagree with some. The talk of "transferring" over that reward. Do you believe that dog just likes to jump, or that he may eventually get a reward for doing it, or do you believe he really just wants to work for you??
> 
> Im with the variable, but to extinct reward *completely*?? if we are talking about a man made shaped behavior that is not rewarding for the dog, (chasing a squirrel is satisfying an urge that the dog would naturally do anyway) doesn't the dog have to expect something will eventually come to continue to be motivated to repeat this behavior that is not naturally satisfying to the dog?? Shouldn't every canine have some type of threshold, where the variable threshold is reached and de-training begins?


There are dogs that will work for praise. Even on activity where instinct is involved, how that dog utilizes his instinct is handler controlled. There are dogs with the level of pack drive/willingness to please that an external reward other than verbal praise isn't necessary. Awhile back the idea of "genetic obedience" was discussed.

T


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## Juan Galvis (Nov 22, 2010)

drew sterner said:


> And here is where i may disagree with some. The talk of "transferring" over that reward. Do you believe that dog just likes to jump, or that he may eventually get a reward for doing it, or do you believe he really just wants to work for you??
> 
> Im with the variable, but to extinct reward *completely*?? if we are talking about a man made shaped behavior that is not rewarding for the dog, (chasing a squirrel is satisfying an urge that the dog would naturally do anyway) doesn't the dog have to expect something will eventually come to continue to be motivated to repeat this behavior that is not naturally satisfying to the dog?? Shouldn't every canine have some type of threshold, where the variable threshold is reached and de-training begins?


Is your comment based on a response to my comment? since you are quoting me. Somehow I just not see the relation between the two. Sometimes people just quote just to post their observation but not necessary in response to the quoted text. Just curious.


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> There are dogs with the level of pack drive/willingness to please that an external reward other than verbal praise isn't necessary. Awhile back the idea of "genetic obedience" was discussed.
> 
> T


I have a dog like this. I had her before I started working and competing with dogs. She was roped in as my first agility dog at age 5 1/2. I have never had a dog learn so fast and want to play the game so much with me. I had never used food or toy rewards with her and didnt need them to train agility. She just loved the whole thing, she just loved trialing, she loved jumping, she absolutely adored the A frame to the point it used to worry me the enthusiasm she showed for leaping over the apex. She loved my praise and had no interest in any other form of reward. She wouldnt do agility unless I was involved so I know she wasnt obsessed with the equipment. It had to be me, her and the equipment, she was incredibly attentive to what I wanted and very sensitive to my body language out on course. She was just so much fun to work with.

She is now nearly 12 and would still have a go if I let her, in fact she would still have a go at anything I ask her. She never leaves my side and if I praise her, her eyes shine.

Best dog ever, wish I knew how to find another like her LOL or how she came to be like that.

I think tranferrence occurs. I have certain phrases that I say to my dogs before I go on an agility course and it gets them flying. I reinforced one dog heavily for the weaves and she now loves the weaves and speeds through them with great enthusiasm when I say weave, with or without reward.

I also have a dog who is not fooled by any of it. She loves running agility with me and she is not bad at obedience but she expects a food reward at the end. She will work her little heart out but she never forgets her treat at the end. She is a self serving little hussy when it comes to work.


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## Travis Ragin (Apr 10, 2010)

drew sterner said:


> Can you extinct the need for a reward and/or correction for a shaped behavior in a canine? Meaning, is at some point the actual act of performing the said behavior enough for the dog to maintain it and be gratified by it enough to consistently perform the behavior? The one exception being you can praise the dog.
> 
> what do you think?


Hello

I think sure you can,

Just attend the nearest K9 Weight Pull event...people have to praise,sing,whistle,bark,breakdance......Anything.....to get them to pull that cart down that track........but all they can use is *themselves*.

The ones I attended,allowed no sort of baiting,luring or harsh corrections in order to get this accomplished...........any extra treats or rewards would have had to come *later* in the truck when leaving,or maybe a meaty beef shank when they got home.


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## Travis Ragin (Apr 10, 2010)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> However, a dog that is truly in it for himself and has no partnership with his handler probably wouldn't last long with most people for long.


Good point!

And,that's actually why i mentioned Weight-Pull.......Although there is no section here for it....it is very much a Working Dog Function.

It'll be impossible to prove,but i'd be willing to bet a month's supply of _snausages_ that none of these dogs lost any motivation to *work*--if they didn't receive treats or rewards! ya think T?:smile:

























Judging by the muzzle on this big boy,I'd say he was pulling and guarding it










*Working Dogs indeed:!:*


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## Travis Ragin (Apr 10, 2010)

Really don't see these dog owners as the type that accept any less than all out effort...just to be fed,maybe.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

I have a friend that is very into to draft work and draft competitions with her bouvier who is a littermate to mine. Based on some the pictures you've provided, draft work was outlawed in Europe as cruel to the dogs. To support my friend as an entry in one of her events, I had hubby make my bouv Khira a cart and trained the commands. When you watch her brother, he is very much in job mode for the work itself when he is hitched up. Khira is primarily a stock dog so she does this because I ask but she doesn't get off on it like her brother. It does come in handy. I wanted to feed my ducks one night and had 50 pounds of duck feed in the van and couldn't carry them around to where I needed them. Didn't want to wait until hubby and son got home so I decided to hitch Khira up to her cart. She really wasn't trained to negotiate the tight gate openings which were just a few inches wider than her cart but I decided to give it a try. Well, in the dark, she pretty much did it on her own. She could care less about recreational carting but that night you could tell she was in a different mode as she did all the turns in the dark and got the feed right next to the bins. I don't think people see how a dog that works for the job doesn't need correction avoidance or reward to perform. Khira actually has an independent streak so I've never considered her the most willing but here she was doing something she really didn't care to do and with gusto and adding what she needed on her own to get it done in the same way it can happen on livestock. She was pretty satisfied with herself standing their watching me put it in the bins. I unhitched her and then she did her stock dog gather and hold while I poured. Her attitude--all in a days work.

T


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

fwiw, a lot of these comments are referring to instinctual behavior vice trained behavior which is how this thread started out ...

anyway
Brian said it about as simple as it can be said 
-- learned command equals conditioned response --
when a command is "learned" (conditioned) and the command is given, there is NO decision process going on anymore in the dog's mind - it just does it - reinforcement is only used to GET to that point 

there is no reinforcement needed once a behavior is learned, and i do of course mean a behavior that is a response to a command

self reinforcing behaviors are not learned behaviors either ... in the sense of training 

but for many trained behaviors this does not mean all PROOFING should cease and be forgotten, and that may require reinforcement 
....nor does it mean you should stop praising your dog when it does what you want ,,, but that is not "training" either 

to the OP: but if you want to learn more about why Brian wrote it that way, i think you need to clarify exactly what it was that you and the trainer were "debating" about in the first place, because imo, the way your question was written indicates one side may not have a firm understanding what "training a command" really means and might create problems ... sorry in advance if it seems like a harsh comment, but i think you are using a lot of terms incorrectly and not thinking (or writing) "operantly", if you can catch my drift 
- if you spend some time really understanding operant conditioning this will all make sense and it will be much easier for you. it is EASY to learn when you read it; the problem is, most people think they "get it" but still have a hard time THINKING it when they are actually with their dog
- it's something i work on a LOT with owners ... they "know" it but don't "think" it :-(

this may all sound like double talk, but i've been using OC for about 30 years now ... if you learn it "by the numbers" and don't take shortcuts offered by some of the "famous" pet trainers who market their streamlined versions, you will have NO problem training a dog


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## Charles Guyer (Nov 6, 2009)

Some pretty famous radical behaviorists (Thorndike, Watson, Skinner) described both classicly and operantly conditioned responses as being subject to extinction.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

re : "Some pretty famous radical behaviorists (Thorndike, Watson, Skinner) described both classicly and operantly conditioned responses as being subject to extinction."

- don't know if you are referring to the type of extinction stated in the original post, or just adding this for info, but wouldn't that be a good reason to continue proofing as well as praising good responses even after the behavior is conditioned ?


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

rick smith said:


> when a command is "learned" (conditioned) and the command is given, there is NO decision process going on anymore in the dog's mind - it just does it - reinforcement is only used to GET to that point
> 
> there is no reinforcement needed once a behavior is learned, and i do of course mean a behavior that is a response to a command
> 
> ...


Well I find it works great for some of my dogs but I have yet to condition a response in one of my cattle dogs where a decision process is not going on in her mind LOL. She is incredibly resistant to conditioning, maybe I am doing something wrong with her. She responds immediately to the command but seconds later she determines if there will be a reward or not and responds accordingly. No amount of reinforcement seems to circumvent that. I can insist that she obeys and she will but it is not a true conditioned response, where her thought process doesnt occur.


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## Charles Guyer (Nov 6, 2009)

rick smith said:


> re : "Some pretty famous radical behaviorists (Thorndike, Watson, Skinner) described both classicly and operantly conditioned responses as being subject to extinction."
> 
> - don't know if you are referring to the type of extinction stated in the original post, or just adding this for info, but wouldn't that be a good reason to continue proofing as well as praising good responses even after the behavior is conditioned ?


I'm saying that if you remove the reinforcing component you will see separation between stimulus and response to the point that there is no longer an association. If praise and pain are classically conditioned, you are not removing reinforcement.


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## Juan Galvis (Nov 22, 2010)

drew sterner said:


> And here is where i may disagree with some. The talk of "transferring" over that reward. Do you believe that dog just likes to jump, or that he may eventually get a reward for doing it, or do you believe he really just wants to work for you??
> 
> Im with the variable, but to extinct reward *completely*?? if we are talking about a man made shaped behavior that is not rewarding for the dog, (chasing a squirrel is satisfying an urge that the dog would naturally do anyway) doesn't the dog have to expect something will eventually come to continue to be motivated to repeat this behavior that is not naturally satisfying to the dog?? Shouldn't every canine have some type of threshold, where the variable threshold is reached and de-training begins?


You are right, it all is also dependant on dog and the nature of the behaviour.


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## Juan Galvis (Nov 22, 2010)

rick smith said:


> fwiw, a lot of these comments are referring to instinctual behavior vice trained behavior which is how this thread started out ...
> 
> anyway
> Brian said it about as simple as it can be said
> ...


Yes I agree the initial question was about non instinctual behaviours. And you are right about the maintainance phase not neccesarily being training. It is more about the semantics of it, because who ever says, "Im going to mantain my dog" we always say "Im going training" weather you are in the teachin, proofing, maitainance phases...etc


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## Juan Galvis (Nov 22, 2010)

rick smith said:


> fwiw, a lot of these comments are referring to instinctual behavior vice trained behavior which is how this thread started out ...
> 
> anyway
> Brian said it about as simple as it can be said
> ...


But here is where I dont agree with you and actually you are contradicting your firs statement, where you said reinforcement is not needed anymore, because later you said that when "Proofing" (which i think you meant maintaining) you would ocassionally need reinforcements.

The bottom line is and this is from Skinner, if you cease reinforcement completely the leanrned behaviour will eventually extinguish. The last phase of the training process (maintainance) remains in a random schedule of reinforcement forever. Now that random schedule can be as long in between as it is productive in the maintainance of the behaviour for your especific dog.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I see absolutely no reason to ever stop reinforcing behaviors be it positive or negative.


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## Juan Galvis (Nov 22, 2010)

Bob Scott said:


> I see absolutely no reason to ever stop reinforcing behaviors be it positive or negative.


Bob, when you said " positive or negative " what do you imply by being "positive" and by being " negative" ?


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

You cannot compare a dog in a laboratory setting to a bonded/pack oriented dog. Those beginning experiments were more about reflex involuntary responses and most weren't done with dogs. For instance, I train a dog at age 2 to do a down in motion as part of an obedience class. For the next several years, I never have any reason to drop him in motion. He goes tearing across the yard and I say platz and he hits the dirt. That behavior hadn't been worked in years, let alone reinforced. Shouldn't it have extinguished? The original post was regarding non-instinct behaviors and whether the dog would work for praise. My marker work which is conditioned is "yes." I praise with in other ways. My marker word will take on the reinforcement effect of the primary reinforcer. I started a puppy with praise only and he worked for it; i.e. repeated the behavior. The praise was not conditioned. Its the tone of it that seems to do the trick judging by him and other handlers' dogs that I work. I don't feed them treats or play with them; yet they lock in on the voice and the silly praise and perform behaviors and repeat them. Yet some dogs need the classic reinforcement system to get the best out of them. 

One of the reasons I referenced the draft work because for my dog, it isn't the least bit instinctive.


Terrasita


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Sara Waters said:


> Well I find it works great for some of my dogs but I have yet to condition a response in one of my cattle dogs where a decision process is not going on in her mind LOL. She is incredibly resistant to conditioning, maybe I am doing something wrong with her. She responds immediately to the command but seconds later she determines if there will be a reward or not and responds accordingly. No amount of reinforcement seems to circumvent that. I can insist that she obeys and she will but it is not a true conditioned response, where her thought process doesnt occur.


 
I'd have to wonder how it was conditioned. Is this dog classically marker trained with a reward it finds valuable and with variable/random reinforcement schedule? You say she responds immediatedly to the command---then she performed it. Depending on the dog, adding duration and distance can be tricky. 

T


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> I'd have to wonder how it was conditioned. Is this dog classically marker trained with a reward it finds valuable and with variable/random reinforcement schedule? You say she responds immediatedly to the command---then she performed it. Depending on the dog, adding duration and distance can be tricky.
> 
> T


I used a clicker and food which is high value to her and she will do cartwheels if food is in the offing, very easy to teach initially. I also did all the variable and random reinforcement, building duration, distance, different locations etc. Like I do with my other dogs and it works perfectly well with them.

Oh she knows what I want alright and will respond but I can see her assessing if she can get away with not doing it if she thinks that the reward is not going to be there. She is a tricky little miss. Praise doesnt really cut it with her. She is a great little agility dog mind you, it is short and high speed and then she gets her treat as soon as she does her run (which is nearly always good and she nearly always places) - she has only one thing on her mind and that is her treat. 

Praise from me is of no consequence, or if I praise her she immediately expects a treat (maybe she has conditioned me LOL). She is the only one of my dogs that is like this. She is also the dog most likely to be at my feet when I am relaxing, so she likes hanging out with me. I dont really sweat it, she is what she is and I enjoy her, maybe like some humans, some dogs are easier to condition than others. 

Dogs are different and certainly I dont belive that they are just a sum of a bunch of conditioned responses.

As to behaviours extinguishing if you dont keep reinforcing them, I dont really believe that either. It is 4 years since my old dog last did the weavers and the other day she was feeling good so just for fun I ran her through them and she did all 12 perfectly several times and nailed the entry. I taught her lots of tricks when she was young and I tested her the other day on one I had forgotten about for many years and she knew exactly what I wanted (roll over).


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Sara Waters said:


> I used a clicker and food which is high value to her and she will do cartwheels if food is in the offing, very easy to teach initially. I also did all the variable and random reinforcement, building duration, distance, different locations etc. Like I do with my other dogs and it works perfectly well with them.
> 
> Oh she knows what I want alright and will respond but I can see her assessing if she can get away with not doing it if she thinks that the reward is not going to be there. She is a tricky little miss. Praise doesnt really cut it with her. She is a great little agility dog mind you, it is short and high speed and then she gets her treat as soon as she does her run (which is nearly always good and she nearly always places) - she has only one thing on her mind and that is her treat.
> 
> ...


I had a dog that I referred to as my union employee. However, that said, she would work for praise/pets as a reward. But to get the best out of her, my trial work always had to be within the marker/reward framework. She always worked with that expectation of reward.

T


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> I had a dog that I referred to as my union employee. However, that said, she would work for praise/pets as a reward. But to get the best out of her, my trial work always had to be within the marker/reward framework. She always worked with that expectation of reward.
> 
> T


That is exactly what she is - my little union employee LOL


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## Juan Galvis (Nov 22, 2010)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> You cannot compare a dog in a laboratory setting to a bonded/pack oriented dog. Those beginning experiments were more about reflex involuntary responses and most weren't done with dogs. For instance, I train a dog at age 2 to do a down in motion as part of an obedience class. For the next several years, I never have any reason to drop him in motion. He goes tearing across the yard and I say platz and he hits the dirt. That behavior hadn't been worked in years, let alone reinforced. Shouldn't it have extinguished? The original post was regarding non-instinct behaviors and whether the dog would work for praise. My marker work which is conditioned is "yes." I praise with in other ways. My marker word will take on the reinforcement effect of the primary reinforcer. I started a puppy with praise only and he worked for it; i.e. repeated the behavior. The praise was not conditioned. Its the tone of it that seems to do the trick judging by him and other handlers' dogs that I work. I don't feed them treats or play with them; yet they lock in on the voice and the silly praise and perform behaviors and repeat them. Yet some dogs need the classic reinforcement system to get the best out of them.
> 
> One of the reasons I referenced the draft work because for my dog, it isn't the least bit instinctive.
> 
> ...


I guess one should keep in mind what level of performance training we are talking about. I have not yet seen any schutzhund or ring, agility world level competitor not use rewards in their training be Ivan Balabanov, Mia skogster, Silvia Trkman or Mario Verslipje.


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## Charles Guyer (Nov 6, 2009)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> You cannot compare a dog in a laboratory setting to a bonded/pack oriented dog. Those beginning experiments were more about reflex involuntary responses and most weren't done with dogs. For instance, I train a dog at age 2 to do a down in motion as part of an obedience class. For the next several years, I never have any reason to drop him in motion. He goes tearing across the yard and I say platz and he hits the dirt. That behavior hadn't been worked in years, let alone reinforced. Shouldn't it have extinguished? The original post was regarding non-instinct behaviors and whether the dog would work for praise. My marker work which is conditioned is "yes." I praise with in other ways. My marker word will take on the reinforcement effect of the primary reinforcer. I started a puppy with praise only and he worked for it; i.e. repeated the behavior. The praise was not conditioned. Its the tone of it that seems to do the trick judging by him and other handlers' dogs that I work. I don't feed them treats or play with them; yet they lock in on the voice and the silly praise and perform behaviors and repeat them. Yet some dogs need the classic reinforcement system to get the best out of them.
> 
> One of the reasons I referenced the draft work because for my dog, it isn't the least bit instinctive.
> 
> ...



Those early experiments were about conditioned responses, not involuntary responses. If you had been telling your dog platz several times a day over the course of several years without reinforcement and he still offered the behavior, then that would run counter to extinction. A marker without occasional reinforcement ceases to be a marker. For instance if Pavlov had quit feeding his dogs when the tone sounded yet the tone continued to sound, the dogs would eventually stop salivating upon hearing it.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

btw, what happened to Drew ?? 
is any of this thread helping you, confusing you, or just stuff you already knew ... just wondering since it is all related to your original Q ... i think


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Charles Guyer said:


> Those early experiments were about conditioned responses, not involuntary responses. If you had been telling your dog platz several times a day over the course of several years without reinforcement and he still offered the behavior, then that would run counter to extinction. A marker without occasional reinforcement ceases to be a marker. For instance if Pavlov had quit feeding his dogs when the tone sounded yet the tone continued to sound, the dogs would eventually stop salivating upon hearing it.



Pavlov's dog experiment was based on a reflex involuntary behavior. The early work was done with dolphins or other marine animals. Total different ball game. All dogs aren't the same. For us basic behaviors like sit, down, recall, heel, etc. don't continue to be reinforced behaviors once learned. We use these commands with our dogs throughout their lives. Most don't wear any type of collar around the house and we certainly don't get dressed with treats, tugs or toys to get the dogs to perform commands around the house or when we are out in public. Nor is there any reason to command a dog to "platz" or anything else several times a day. I can go all week without giving a command to a somewhat finished adult dog. As for occasional reinforcement and markers--how occasional? Varies depending on the dog. And how do you know it will cease to be a marker. Ever tried to see how far you can go without the primary reinforcer to the point that the secondary reinforcer doesn't have any effect?

Terrasita


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## Juan Galvis (Nov 22, 2010)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Pavlov's dog experiment was based on a reflex involuntary behavior. The early work was done with dolphins or other marine animals. Total different ball game. All dogs aren't the same. For us basic behaviors like sit, down, recall, heel, etc. don't continue to be reinforced behaviors once learned. We use these commands with our dogs throughout their lives. Most don't wear any type of collar around the house and we certainly don't get dressed with treats, tugs or toys to get the dogs to perform commands around the house or when we are out in public. Nor is there any reason to command a dog to "platz" or anything else several times a day. I can go all week without giving a command to a somewhat finished adult dog. As for occasional reinforcement and markers--how occasional? Varies depending on the dog. And how do you know it will cease to be a marker. Ever tried to see how far you can go without the primary reinforcer to the point that the secondary reinforcer doesn't have any effect?
> 
> Terrasita


Terrasita maybe you have discovered some magical snake oil way to train dogs. It seems your method defies all scientific research by Pavlov and skinner. I would still love to see on video that lighting-speed-dirt hitting-in motion Platz you never practiced for years in the face of high distraction. Also you said pavlov worked with Dolphins??? That is the biggest fallacy ever heard. No point to continue this exchange of ideas with such lack of knowledge on theory.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Juan Galvis said:


> Terrasita maybe you have discovered some magical snake oil way to train dogs. It seems your method defies all scientific research by Pavlov and skinner. I would still love to see on video that lighting-speed-dirt hitting-in motion Platz you never practiced for years in the face of high distraction. Also you said pavlov worked with Dolphins??? That is the biggest fallacy ever heard. No point to continue this exchange of ideas with such lack of knowledge on theory.


You guys are hilarious. The OP asked a question. He didn't qualify it. Will a dog continue to perform a behavior for nothing more than praise? Sorry the video of the lightening speed dog is impossible. He died several years ago. I stopped that same dog with a platz when he went head on through a chain link fence after something. A platz stopped him during bitework with his leash and collar gave way. I also didn't say Pavlov worked with Dolphins---read again. Once again, Pavlov's experiment involved reflex/involuntary behavior. You might want to revisit your knowledge and theory and try testing it working with dogs. IF you live with a dog in a bonded pack relationship, it isn't difficult to train behaviors and have that dog perform them without reinforcements other than PRAISE which was the original question. Now if you want to qualify it with high level, non instinct trial repetitions--that can be another issue altogether. The question was not whether world level trial competitors could achieve that level of performance without marker training. Nor was the question about whether marker training works. Of course it does. I can certainly remember dogs that performed at a high competition level before marker/clicker training became all the rage. It took a certain type of temperament but it was possible.

If you want to study theory, how about PACK DRIVE. Some dogs have it. Some don't or to a much lesser degree. It can make the difference in terms of how much reinforcement that dog needs to consistently perform. I think people who actually live with their dogs and work them in a job context as opposed to just trial/points, may experience a different type of dog and maybe because they select for a different type of dog. Pavlov, Skinner, the Brelands, etc. did limited experiments. The experiments did not involve living with an animal for 12-14 years through all of their life stages and training. 

As for method---I train/teach with marker training with positive reinforcment. My markers--clicker and verbal "yes." Reward--varies depending on the dog and definitely what the dog sees as high value. Does this mean I need a marker or reward beyond the teaching/learning phase to keep my dog performing basic behaviors around the house or even on livestock for that matter? No.

Terrasita


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## Charles Guyer (Nov 6, 2009)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> You guys are hilarious. The OP asked a question. He didn't qualify it. Will a dog continue to perform a behavior for nothing more than praise? Sorry the video of the lightening speed dog is impossible. He died several years ago. I stopped that same dog with a platz when he went head on through a chain link fence after something. A platz stopped him during bitework with his leash and collar gave way. I also didn't say Pavlov worked with Dolphins---read again. Once again, Pavlov's experiment involved reflex/involuntary behavior. You might want to revisit your knowledge and theory and try testing it working with dogs. IF you live with a dog in a bonded pack relationship, it isn't difficult to train behaviors and have that dog perform them without reinforcements other than PRAISE which was the original question. Now if you want to qualify it with high level, non instinct trial repetitions--that can be another issue altogether. The question was not whether world level trial competitors could achieve that level of performance without marker training. Nor was the question about whether marker training works. Of course it does. I can certainly remember dogs that performed at a high competition level before marker/clicker training became all the rage. It took a certain type of temperament but it was possible.
> 
> If you want to study theory, how about PACK DRIVE. Some dogs have it. Some don't or to a much lesser degree. It can make the difference in terms of how much reinforcement that dog needs to consistently perform. I think people who actually live with their dogs and work them in a job context as opposed to just trial/points, may experience a different type of dog and maybe because they select for a different type of dog. Pavlov, Skinner, the Brelands, etc. did limited experiments. The experiments did not involve living with an animal for 12-14 years through all of their life stages and training.
> 
> ...


Thank you


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Juan Galvis said:


> Bob, when you said " positive or negative " what do you imply by being "positive" and by being " negative" ?


The simplest answer is is positive + reward. Negative = withholding reward. Some can/will look at negative as correction. That is just as correct as my definition of negative.
Both can and have been discussed to death here on the WDF so that isn't my intent by explaining "my" thoughts on positive or negative. The choice of definition is open to whatever you want it to be. :grin: :wink:


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## drew sterner (Aug 26, 2011)

I am still here, not sure how to respond to all the different responses to be honest. Juan i dont believe i was quoting you way back, was quoting the lady that talked about her dog transferring reward for jumps. 


The main thing i see in some of these responses is that people are believing that they are extincting a reward, when in fact they have just built a higher threshold for the variable reward. 

Whatever you want to call it, at some point you have "chained" behavior together and rewarded, or you go back to "maintenance" phase, or a correction. If not, you really have to question is the dog satisfying an instinctual urge it naturally had to begin with which is not a man made shaped behavior. 

Someone threw out weight pull and how the dog doesnt get baited at weight pull. Well, yeah, but you know what? My dog doesnt get his ball on a string during a Sch ob trial phase does he? The bottom line is (for me), that dogs either thinks a reward is coming, or he is satisfying an instinctual urge that was there through selective breeding. 

the best example off the top of my head that i could give is the focused heel. That dog is looking me in the eye because he is waiting for a release (ok) which is a precursor to a reward (ball on a string) Its not natural, it doesn't make him feel good, but he does it because he knows what he gets from it does make him feel good eventually. If i stop giving the ball completely one day, he will maintain a focused heel for a while (threshold) because he expects that eventually he will get the ball. However, at some point i will re-condition him to realize he no longer gets a ball for the focused heel. 

What do you think happens then? Obviously, some dogs have different thresholds, but in the end, you are changing the rules of the game and the dog will lose his attention to you.

Im not going to go into "pack behavior" I don't believe we are important to the dog in the sense that some of the members here believe which is a whole different discussion.

anyways good discussion, no-one will ever agree 100% but thats dog training.


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## Travis Ragin (Apr 10, 2010)

I think you should have just written this last post.....to begin this thread with.


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## Travis Ragin (Apr 10, 2010)

drew sterner said:


> Meaning, is at some point the actual act of performing the said behavior enough for the dog to maintain it and be gratified by it enough to consistently perform the behavior? The one exception being you can praise the dog.


I have a question for you.......seriously no offense intended.



Have you ever even tried this?

What were the results...did the dog just flat out quit?...or simply laid down flat on the ground and refused to do anything more?


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## Travis Ragin (Apr 10, 2010)

drew sterner said:


> had a convo with a fellow trainer from a different background of dog training than myself.


Another quick question(sorry,I'm quite curious)

What sort of dog training background was this person from?



t


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## drew sterner (Aug 26, 2011)

Travis Ragin said:


> I have a question for you.......seriously no offense intended.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


No i have never tried it, because i dont have the time to waste with my personal dogs when i know what will happen. (in my opinion of course) Maybe when i accomplish everything i want then i can experiment a little more. But between work and family, I have to make the most of the time I do train. No offense taken.

The other said trainer came from a field trial background.


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## Britney Pelletier (Mar 5, 2009)

drew sterner said:


> I am still here, not sure how to respond to all the different responses to be honest. Juan i dont believe i was quoting you way back, was quoting the lady that talked about her dog transferring reward for jumps.
> 
> 
> The main thing i see in some of these responses is that people are believing that they are extincting a reward, when in fact they have just built a higher threshold for the variable reward.
> ...



Amen to that! :mrgreen:


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Obedience heel is one thing, however I know several dogs that absolutely look at agility as a reward. They cant wait to get out on course to run. They go nuts to get out there. Possibly a conditioned response due to the use of rewards, but whatever it is they will run in the absense of a reward because they find the run rewarding. 

Sometimes this is a problem - a friend of mine never really got anywhere with her dog because everytime he saw a bit of equipment he would lose his mind LOL. 

One of my own dogs loves agilty and everytime we walk past my agility area on a a normal walk, if there is a tunnel setup she has to race through it when I shout tunnel and she is long retired from agility. Same dog that would also run in the absence of reward when I did trial her. She loved the game, pure and simple. I still tunnel her just to see her eyes shine.


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