# Ideas for teaching the out to younger dog



## Toran Scott (Mar 27, 2009)

Probably better question to ask in the training section but figured more folks look here. I'd love to hear some different ideas. I have recently begun watching some of the Ellis videos and am finding them to be very informative. I really like how he breaks things down and have already implemented a few new tricks to my marker training. OK enough of the commercial... here is the question.

When begining to teach the basics of the out on my young dog (she is 6 months) I am trying to use Ellis' idea of simply holding/immobilizng the tug and waiting for the dog to release. Once the dog releases a quick mark followed by a rebite and win. This is great in principle unless your dog simply never lets go . She can be a bit of a thrasher (which I am working to calm) and holding the tug stable (so she can't self satisfy with shaking/pulling) is tough at 6 months... and will be much tougher in a few months as she will be a decent sized female. I am looking for any insight on what folks have done. 

Teaching the out to my DS female was relatively easy and she pops off quickly on command. My new pup is quite a different dog so learning how to do things differently is a fun challenge. I have only started begining to teach this a couple days ago and already saw a bit of improvemement but knowing a bit about her dad tells me this could be a bit of an issue if not done well. (She seems to take after her father temp/drive wise). 

I can get her to out with the addition of another tug (she'll drop one to engage another). I'm not in any hurry to teach this just don't want to wait too long with her and want to make sure it's done fairly. There is almost always more than one way to skin a cat (but some ways do bring better results  ). I'd love to hear what others have done, especially as it pertains to motivational methods. I'll bring correction in when she is considerably older and knows without a doubt what is being asked. So what other tricks/tips have you used for begining to teach the out to dogs that like to self satisfy... bring em on.
Toran

p.s. I seen the second DVD from the Ellis "Tug" video so he might offer some other suggestions still wanted to hear what some folks on here have done and what the results were. Heck even hearing some things you did that didn't work might be as helpful as stuff that did...


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## Doug Zaga (Mar 28, 2010)

Like you, I watched ME DVD's and attended a seminar my club hosted. When my Dutch import Rotti arrived here in the states I immediately began Marker Training with him.

One day, he was probably 9 -10 weeks old, I was out on the deck and we were playing with him retrieving a plastic water bottle. When he returned it I Marked then rewarded. As this went on I was able to time him dropping the bottle and put it on Cue as Aus. Within a couple of days he knew the out command and we proceeded to use the command to drop other items. By the time he was old enough for Tug Play he already knew it and outing him off the tug was easy. This weekend during training it was his first time working arms and second time on a suit...when outed he outed very well.

We are attending another Ellis seminar this coming weekend in RI. :mrgreen:


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## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

I have a dog that as long as my hands were touching it, he wasnt letting go.... for him, I revisited the command back stepping using word association as I saw him releasing the toy any toy any time and mark/reward.... with my hands never touching it.... has helped alot... for now ](*,)


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

I had spent quite a lot of time with my dog when he was young, just waiting him out......it was a pretty lengthy process sometimes :roll:. At home I would take a cigarette in the garden and sit on a deck chair, whereby he would bring me his toy to play, and throw it in my lap as I was ignoring him. This helped a lot and I started to get a better out from him, in addition to a rebite on the tug when he outed .

Occasionally I would break down whilst training though, and resort to the hard crack on the head technique.... Wish I had started the rebite or two balls method when he was younger.


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## Toran Scott (Mar 27, 2009)

Thanks Tracey, that's helpful... been working on word association with the two tug game. I know ME uses the phrase (he said he got it from someone else) "Don't name it till you love it"  It makes sense but not sure if it can be a hard and fast rule. Your dogs issue sounds similar to mine . 

@ Doug... yeah, my DS was a snap to teach the out to, this Mali is different. Had some bulldogs in the past that were tough but I didn't use nearly as much motivational methods 6 years ago as I do now. Wished I would have started using more motivation 7 years ago... I'd be much better at it today .


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## Doug Zaga (Mar 28, 2010)

maggie fraser said:


> :roll:. At home I would take a cigarette in the garden and sit on a deck chair, whereby he would bring me MY toy to play.
> 
> Occasionally I would break down whilst training IT though, and resort to the hard c*ck on the head technique.... Wish I had started the two ball method when I was younger.


 
Oh Maggie May I could not resist this one! :twisted:


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## Grant Cusworth (Feb 15, 2011)

A few suggestions... It's very dependent on the drive of the dog IMO. Some dogs will pop off an immobile object. Some will re-direct to a different item if it's presented, some need compulsion, and some would rather die than let go.

You can try a re-direct while using the out command, then slowly progress from basically jiggling it in her face at the start to having it in your pocket and when she releases and turns to you with the out command the toy is presented as reward. This doesn't work for my dog, or the pup I'm working with... toys aren't the decoy and they're ignored. (kinda funny to see your dog doing a face attack recall and duck underneath a presented tug and come around to heel in hopes of being sent again... lol)

You can add to the immobilized tug by holding your dog still and softly petting the dog along her back and sides (not near her head as she may think you're going to grab the tug and play some more) Have everything slow down and maybe she'll drop it. If she does, praise/reward then extend the time between the release and the reward as training progresses.

Or steady (increasing if needed) pressure on a slip collar (whatever you call it, leather choke collar thingy) upwards but with a calm soothing voice repeating the out command. It's OK to repeat the command here because essentially there's a constant correction going on with the collar being pulled. Then upon the release of the tug, praise and reward right away at the beginning and as training progresses the time between the out and the reward is extended however the praise remains immediate. Depending on your goals you can start to command a position between the release and the reward to develop a guard...

:-k That or get a big stick!

For what it's worth...

Grant


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## Toran Scott (Mar 27, 2009)

Maggie... that's what I'm trying to avoid... allowing my frustration to build and "oveflow"  It's tough when she finally outs for a split second (more like releases with an instant rebite) and before I can even mark and reward with a rebite she clamps down on my thumb... This chick has some serious jaw strength at 6 months... :twisted: 

My involuntary "yelp" did cause her to release and I was able to mark and reward... the whole time though I'm thinking "She better realize the reward was for the release and not for biting me :lol:" I'm sure she will learn the out just wanting to hear what folks have done with dogs that are quite possesive. 

It's funny though, her engagement with me, especially during ob and just out and about is really strong, much stronger than my nearly 2 year old DS female (Cada). However Cada is all about engagement with a tug and she outs super fast and when I let her "win the tug" she is flying right back at me for more play. A'Maize (my 6 mos. mali) is simply much more possesive, doesn't want to bring the tug back much at all (even with my running away and praising the second she comes back to me). Genetics can be shaped but they are still always there. I haven't trained enough different dogs to recognize though when I am adding to the problem vs. helping shape it correctly. Always more to learn.

Toran


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## Rik Wolterbeek (Jul 19, 2009)

Grant Cusworth;
Or steady (increasing if needed) pressure on a slip collar (whatever you call it said:


> That's exactly how I do it.
> 
> Rik Wolterbeek


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## Toran Scott (Mar 27, 2009)

@ Rik... it seems like this could backfire eventually. Choking off the bite (which I have done a few times when not working the out) usually builds more drive for possession not less (I'm assuming this has been your experience also?). Especially on a decoy that is "fighting" the dog. How do you work past the conflict and get the out proofed for sport application? I'm guessing simply getting the dog to realize the reward comes after the object is dropped? It just seems that in a trial scenario (assuming the dog gets trial wise) it would be easy for the dog to ignore the command and revert back to self satisfying with the grip. I ask you because I know your background and respect your knowledge. 

@ Grant... thanks for the ideas, having a few different things to try is always helpful. I have been working with the two tug for simply getting her to release but that has always been on the back tie. I've had the most success with this. Just recently began to formally train the out and was using Ellis' method and was curious what folks do when that isn't working. Your ideas (and others) are helpful. Eventually I'll work it into getting her into position for guarding (planning on ring with her). Thanks for some thoughtful feedback everyone, keep it coming.
Toran


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

If it isn't working it is because you are not patient enough, and or waited way too long to start work with it. 

I would probably at this point let the decoy help you teach it by using another toy and saying out when she lets go to get the other toy. Once they get big enough, they can shake you and what a mess you have made. 

There is some crappy myth out there that teaching the out to early will effect the dog, and for me, that just shows me the dog isn't worth continuing training with if it is that major. Some are just trying to do the right thing, and you will have caused the dog to out by always giving the command after X amount of time. Usually I just see a dog that is trying to do the right thing to keep the game going and not some devastating effect. It is rare for me to see a dog that cannot deal with teaching the out early this way.


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## Grant Cusworth (Feb 15, 2011)

To offer a quote....:

_"Once the dog has a true love of the bite, it's time to make the out, the age does not decide..."_

Grant


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## Daniel Lybbert (Nov 23, 2010)

Amen brother!!


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: "Once the dog has a true love of the bite, it's time to make the out, the age does not decide..."

No, I do. : )

They are going to like the game, or not. This is the game. The biggest pain in the ass is having someone bring a dog to me that is now over a year old and was never taught an out. It is a big part of what I do, and all waiting does is make a big production out of something easy to teach.

You can quote that if you want.


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## Rik Wolterbeek (Jul 19, 2009)

Toran Scott said:


> @ Rik... it seems like this could backfire eventually. Choking off the bite (which I have done a few times when not working the out) usually builds more drive for possession not less (I'm assuming this has been your experience also?). Especially on a decoy that is "fighting" the dog. How do you work past the conflict and get the out proofed for sport application? I'm guessing simply getting the dog to realize the reward comes after the object is dropped? It just seems that in a trial scenario (assuming the dog gets trial wise) it would be easy for the dog to ignore the command and revert back to self satisfying with the grip. I ask you because I know your background and respect your knowledge.Toran


I don't think it builds drive, it for sure will keep the dog in drive. When you use only the toy to teach the out as described the dog will inderstand that it immedialtely gets the toy back In the beginnng there is no delay in rewarding the dog, after a while you can delay the reward by making the dog sit or bark. When the dog starts to understand the concept you can introduce a correction when she does not comply as she did before. It takes patience but it will happen eventually.
Once she understands that out means reward and not outing means correction you can create a perfect out on the dog.

Rik Wolterbeek


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## Toran Scott (Mar 27, 2009)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> If it isn't working it is because you are not patient enough, and or waited way too long to start work with it.


_Jeff, you are probably addressing everyone here (or you didn't read my first post in it's entirety) the dog is 5 1/2 months so not too old and I couldn't say it wasn't/isn't working, I've only been formally working on it for 2-3 days... just trying to hear some different opinions and approaches for more possessive dogs. _



Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I would probably at this point let the decoy help you teach it by using another toy and saying out when she lets go to get the other toy. Once they get big enough, they can shake you and what a mess you have made.


_Were not quite here yet _




Jeff Oehlsen said:


> There is some crappy myth out there that teaching the out to early will effect the dog, and for me, that just shows me the dog isn't worth continuing training with if it is that major. Some are just trying to do the right thing, and you will have caused the dog to out by always giving the command after X amount of time. Usually I just see a dog that is trying to do the right thing to keep the game going and not some devastating effect. It is rare for me to see a dog that cannot deal with teaching the out early this way.


_Oddly I find myself agreeing with you for the most part. I can't say agreeing with you completely though because that is simply too scary to admit..._

Toran


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## Toran Scott (Mar 27, 2009)

Grant Cusworth said:


> To offer a quote....:
> 
> _"Once the dog has a true love of the bite, it's time to make the out, the age does not decide..."_
> 
> Grant


Nice quote Grant... I dig...

@ Rik, thanks for the explanation, makes sense. I've already seen some progress in my last session this evening using the ME method but appreciate hearing the various tips/tricks/techniques folks use.


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## Anna Kasho (Jan 16, 2008)

For whatever it's worth, I played two-ball with fallen lemons to get an "out" that I could mark and name, with my current pain in the ass pup Zlodei. With him I needed an out starting at 12 weeks. It was getting ridiculous, one bite and game over.The lemons were just nasty enough that he didn't mind giving them up so much, though he was still crazy about chasing and retrieving them. Once he grasped the concept, and I got it on cue, it was a matter of training. It transferred nicely to high value objects, ball, tug, even food.

His bite was so nice, and he was so happy to interact with me with the object, that I didn't want to screw things over "making" him out. Especially when he was that young. I'd rather make him want to...

He was posessive, but we had a good relationship since I raised him, and he didn't do the keep-away thing with me. I didn't want to ruin that.

So far, 7 months old, his out is clean, no conflict and no chewing, and I haven't had to correct him for it yet.


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## Daniel Lybbert (Nov 23, 2010)

Not sure what your doing with your dog. In FR you loose more points for slow to out rebites etc than you do for an esquive, - 2 per sec. I think it needs to get taught and taught fast. Phillipe Touy told me out means out and it means it for the dogs whole life. I agree.


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## Lynda Myers (Jul 16, 2008)

maggie fraser said:


> I had spent quite a lot of time with my dog when he was young, just waiting him out......it was a pretty lengthy process sometimes :roll:.


Ditto on the wait it out. What's helps with speeding up the time is to have something to dog likes better then what's his already on. I save the two most favorite toys and or food for this exercise. Works great with my ABs and Pitbull. The best advise I ever received on this was don't get in a hurry...patience.


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## Grant Cusworth (Feb 15, 2011)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: "Once the dog has a true love of the bite, it's time to make the out, the age does not decide..."
> 
> No, I do. : )
> 
> ...



Context sir... context. This wasn't a quote from someone who teaches an "out" to his 1 yr+ old dog... I'd say the majority of the dogs that learn "out" from him are 3-5 mos old. And at 5 mos it was a late bloomer...

- and yes, I did quote you.

Grant


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## Tracey Hughes (Jul 13, 2007)

On my older, more experienced dogs I do a very similar technique to Rik’s. I say OUT, if they refuse..I say NO and then I Hang the dog up off the front feet until they let go. It is done very calmly and I say “out” once the dog has released. Then “good out” with praise, from me, a bark(s) from the dog and then a re bite and play(on command or movement). 

If the dog should rebite or touch the tug/sleeve after the out command is given, they are corrected. They are only allowed to bite when I give them the ok or they are attacked by the helper/stick is raised.

We also teach the dog to always bark on the out command as we are want active guarding.

All the outs and keeping clean are first taught by the handler on the tug and then moved onto the man once the dog is completely sure of the expectations and knows all the rules of the game. 

It is a lot easier to teach the dog his foundation away from the man as we teach the dogs the helper is not their friend, so once the conflict from the man is brought into the picture, most dogs get harder to keep control on which is why we have them secured before the helper is ever introduced.


On brand new pups we push the tug to the ground and keep everything still and calm, once the dog lets go, we say out. If this is started as an 8 week old we normally see the dogs outing on their own by 5-6 months. Then it is time to introduce the “hanging” once they decide not to listen.

On ocassion we will use food for the out for the pups..pretty much whatever works well we will use.


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## Pia Porko (Oct 8, 2008)

I teach puppies to out by lifting them just slightly up in the air, rear end a bit higher than the front. Their mouth just automatically opens when I do this and I just give the command as it happens. If your dog isn't too heavy you could still try this, I find it a "nice" way of teaching them to out. Then when they know what I want but decide to try their luck I resort to some little reminders (nip behind the ribs/groin/etc).


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I taught my older GSD at a very young age, 8-10 weeks. The beauty of it is now, he outs on everything. His desire to bite has not diminished in any way. If he has an interaction with the younger GSD, an "out" stops him. If he picks up stuff in the woods, an out stops him.

I think a lot of handlers are anxious that they will ruin their dogs for protection work. I can't see the reasoning. A dog that likes to bite, bites whether or not it has learned to out cleanly or not. 

One thing can help afterwards in protection work - take the pup, young dog away from the helper to out.

The younger one is not as good but nearly!! (It's not my dog, it's Toni's).


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## Toran Scott (Mar 27, 2009)

Thanks for all of the replies and ideas everyone. Nice to see different methods/ideas being discussed. Much appreciated. I am still using the method Ellis shows in his vids and continue to see improvement. Patience is always the most important ingrediant when shaping new behaviors. Thanks for the various ideas as they can be helpful for us all to hear and stick in our bag of tricks to use later if the situation calls for it. 
Thanks again,
Toran


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

First the out command ..... think about how the pup sees the out command it is one of those intangible type commands for many dogs especially young pups. In intangible I mean its like training eye contact ... there is no physical "action" other than the dog opening his mouth. No one method will work for every dog. Every dog has their own strengths, weaknesses and quirks. We start younger pups before any "play" ever begins using food. A lessor food is traded for a high value one in the game of swap. 

BE SURE THERE ARE NO DISTRACTIONS~
TIMING is everything especially when teaching the out. Be prepared to be a statue and stay the course. Instead of bringing the dog to a point of being relatively still on the bite and barking the out command (if you are giving the out command while he is on the bite what does that tell the dog?) .... wait...read the pup....when you see him ready to release give the command one time and try to time it with the actual release. If the command does not mark the behavior it was all for naught. As soon as he outs then "gooooood" then give him another bite. Do this only a few times and don't draw it out especially with a younger dog (he will check out on you). After the second or third successful out then move right into something he is good at and finish quickly on a good note. Go to the crate and chill. Wait an hour or two and repeat always going from the quick outs to a drill he knows well and finish on a high note then back to the crate. If the pup just doesn't seem to be putting it together then your timing is off. Hope there is something in there you can use. 

Remember that teaching with two tugs and your timing isn't right can actually teach the dog to re-bite which depending on your ultimate goal can be good or bad. 

here is a video of a re-bite that isn't desirable for the sport:
http://shkola-orlova.ru/view/55525f3e6598296f26635a45ff8925b0.xhtml


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## Marta Wajngarten (Jul 30, 2006)

Toran, I like the idea of the second tug but you would have to be careful that you don't end up using it as a lure. So don't hang it over her head in the "if you let go you can have this" fashion. 

I think you need to wait her out. This can be hard and may take much longer with a dog like her, but it will happen. Once she starts getting it, the time should decrease. If she's being thrashy, what has worked with my pup is to hold her with my other arm wrapped under her belly, sort of as if you were going to pick up her bum, but that's just to keep her in place and make this boring and stationary. Then wait till she spits the toy out, mark immediately and if you want, pull out the other toy or use the same one for a quick game of tug as reward. Having your other arm under her also acts as a bit of a physical cue.

I don't like using force to teach the out. You're not teaching any thing, you're forcing your way. Using a correction to clean up a slow or sloppy out is one thing, but when I see people hanging their dogs and choking them off an object the dog is not learning any thing productive other then perhaps to bite down harder. That's just venting your own frustration because the dog isn't following the commands you think you had taught it.


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## Kayce Cover (Oct 30, 2007)

Toran Scott said:


> Probably better question to ask in the training section but figured more folks look here. I'd love to hear some different ideas. I have recently begun watching some of the Ellis videos and am finding them to be very informative. I really like how he breaks things down and have already implemented a few new tricks to my marker training. OK enough of the commercial... here is the question.
> 
> When begining to teach the basics of the out on my young dog (she is 6 months) I am trying to use Ellis' idea of simply holding/immobilizng the tug and waiting for the dog to release. Once the dog releases a quick mark followed by a rebite and win. This is great in principle unless your dog simply never lets go . She can be a bit of a thrasher (which I am working to calm) and holding the tug stable (so she can't self satisfy with shaking/pulling) is tough at 6 months... and will be much tougher in a few months as she will be a decent sized female. I am looking for any insight on what folks have done.
> 
> ...


Hi Toran,

I start with a non-preferred food or toy - something they will take, but also don't mind letting go of - like a stick of celery. I give it, naming 'take', with a bridge, or marker. Then I ask for 'out' and wait till the animal shows a HINT of slackening the jaws - mark this and name it again 'OUT!'. The instant the dog starts to clamp down again, I name 'take!' and then ask for 'out' again. Again, the INSTANT the dog slackens, mark and name again. I am looking for enough slack that I can remove the thing from the dog's mouth, but I don't want to start a tug. So, I will leave it there and focus on the difference between 'take' and 'out' until the dog decides to explore that, which he does by outing. At which point, mark, name and huge private party. I am switching the emphasis from chewing to thinking about what is happening.

Once I have a good celery take (normally a matter of a minute or two), I go to a slightly more preferred object. And so on, until the dog has a beautiful out on his favorite thing to chew on. Usually takes 15 minutes or less, beginning to end.

Timing is critical here. Too slow and you miss the instant of change. We need to be fast enough to keep up with the dog's changes AND comment on t hem as we go. There is no replacement for good training skill. One must be fast enough and here is a place where a fast bridge makes a difference (gu vs good). For those who have the speed and timing to match the dog's action, this is a quick task.

Best wishes,
Kayce


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## Toran Scott (Mar 27, 2009)

Thanks Kayce... I'll try this later tonight. I have already seen some improvement with simply holding the tug still but she still does a bit of self satisfying with a shake and certainly isn't "outing" quickly after the command yet... Obviously this will all take some time so I am no rush. I'm up for giving your method a shot. I'll shoot you a pm.
Toran


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Kayce Cover said:


> Hi Toran,
> 
> I start with a non-preferred food or toy - something they will take, but also don't mind letting go of - like a stick of celery. I give it, naming 'take', with a bridge, or marker. Then I ask for 'out' and wait till the animal shows a HINT of slackening the jaws - mark this and name it again 'OUT!'. The instant the dog starts to clamp down again, I name 'take!' and then ask for 'out' again. Again, the INSTANT the dog slackens, mark and name again. I am looking for enough slack that I can remove the thing from the dog's mouth, but I don't want to start a tug. So, I will leave it there and focus on the difference between 'take' and 'out' until the dog decides to explore that, which he does by outing. At which point, mark, name and huge private party. I am switching the emphasis from chewing to thinking about what is happening.
> 
> ...


Nice Kayce


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

What happens when the dog eats the celery ?


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## Toran Scott (Mar 27, 2009)

I'm about to give it a shot Jeff... I'll probably be able to let you know... 
I'll even try to video tape the session so I can be critiqued on what did/didn't work.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Had too many dogs that would just chew the celery. Probably one of the dumber suggestions I have heard. That person should stick with pets/rescues.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Kayce Cover said:


> Hi Toran,
> 
> I start with a non-preferred food or toy - something they will take, but also don't mind letting go of - like a stick of celery. I give it, naming 'take', with a bridge, or marker. Then I ask for 'out' and wait till the animal shows a HINT of slackening the jaws - mark this and name it again 'OUT!'. The instant the dog starts to clamp down again, I name 'take!' and then ask for 'out' again. Again, the INSTANT the dog slackens, mark and name again. I am looking for enough slack that I can remove the thing from the dog's mouth, but I don't want to start a tug. So, I will leave it there and focus on the difference between 'take' and 'out' until the dog decides to explore that, which he does by outing. At which point, mark, name and huge private party. I am switching the emphasis from chewing to thinking about what is happening.
> 
> ...



I have seen this work with really hard to out dogs, not using celery, but something that they will bite, but don't have the same level of desire for as something they have a hard time outing. IE if they have an out problem off a suit or sleeve. Work them on copper or pvc pipe. Slowly make the object more desireable as the command sets in. Not sure if I understand your marker scheme exactly, where you are pairing the out with the marker, but I am not arguing it, I will read it again later. What I posted maybe not applicable to this situation as much as for older dogs, but I like your celery idea, Kayce.


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## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

Toran Scott said:


> Thanks Kayce... I'll try this later tonight. I have already seen some improvement with simply holding the tug still but she still does a bit of self satisfying with a shake and certainly isn't "outing" quickly after the command yet... Obviously this will all take some time so I am no rush. I'm up for giving your method a shot. I'll shoot you a pm.
> Toran


I dont understand, I thought you said you didnt want to "name" it until until it was perfect or something like that? So you are asking for the command and then when the dog takes a long time what? rewarding? If so, I can tell you in my experience with my very possessive dog this backfired on me. Although the word association I use... similar to Kacey's theory only no celery lol... helped, but yes she is correct timing is everything but unlike her, I dont name it unless I KNOW they are letting go and start with the instant it is out. With a very possessive dog I want it very clear it means all parts off....

t


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## Toran Scott (Mar 27, 2009)

Hi Tracey,
Mike says (in his video) that he stole the idea from someone but likes it ("don't name it till you love it"). I tend to agree but with only a few years of marker training and only a few dogs that I have used it with I am very aware that I still have a lot to learn. I am intrigued by Kayce's ideas so I thought I would give it a try even though it was "naming it first". Maybe Kayce can explain why she prefers that (I couldn't). 

I videotaped the experiment... not gonna lie... it was ugly. I started with a piece of celery and that was ugly. I went to a mini nerf football and that was better. Even with the first attempt you could see that she was picking it up a bit (although I had already been working on the behavior prior). I am sure that most of the ugliness was due to my lack of understanding what to look for and my timing. It's tough to name and mark 2 separate cues (take, "yes!" and out, "yes!") when the dog is chewy and quickly moving between the two behaviors. I'm gonna try and get the vid posted so Kayce can point out my mistakes (they are numerous) and although I can pinpoint a number of times I just missed the timing I'm sure there are other nuances she will see and be able to offer feedback on that I don't get yet.

For now I have gone back to the original tug immobilization method. She continues to improve but is certainly not fast on the out's. She is definitely getting better though as I expected she would. She might be a dog that won't get fast until there is a correction added but I'd like to have the out fast with motivation and not use any correction until proofing is required. She's still young though and were still working.

Videotaping my marker work sure is helpful though. I need to be more consistent in doing it as you see so much more clearly timing issues, movement of hands before the marker etc. I thought I had it down pretty good but recognized a few errors (with my normal way of marker training... not Kayce's). Thanks again to everyone who has participated in the thread. 
Toran


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## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

im looking forward to this... video and her response... something we can all learn from hopefully


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## Toran Scott (Mar 27, 2009)

Tracey, it was so bad I'm not even sure if it would be helpful . Also not sure I have the cajones the get destroyed over the attempt (and its public display) .

I have thought about editing my normal marker training videos to show where I am making mistakes and where it looks good for people to possibly learn from. That is one of the things that Mike does a nice job of (and Ed as well through the editing process) of showing strong and weak dog and trainer behaviors. It's nice to see good dogs and good handlers but often seeing someone do it incorrectly is more helpful (especially if it is pointed out). The one thing that I think would be beneficial from the Ellis vids (and maybe someone out there has done this already) would be to see multiple sessions with the same dog, watching the training progression with tips of when to recognize the dog is ready to move on to more advanced behaviors or linked behaviors etc. 

I think showing where I am making a mistake (too quick of a movement before the verbal marker etc.) can be helpful. It certainly is helpful for me to see it myself, watching my mistakes and (and success) allows me to know what more I need to focus on and allows me to be a better trainer. Taking the time to edit with instructions of what went right or wrong would take quite a bit of time though...
Toran


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Toran said;
"(too quick of a movement before the verbal marker etc.)"

Probably one of the more common mistakes in marker training. 
In reality I look at it the same as a mistimed correction. 
Timing, timing,timing!


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## Toran Scott (Mar 27, 2009)

Bob Scott said:


> Toran said;
> "(too quick of a movement before the verbal marker etc.)"
> 
> Probably one of the more common mistakes in marker training.
> ...


Yep... pretty similar... timing is king...


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