# Questions on focused heeling-not on how to acheive it but...



## vicki dickey (Jul 5, 2011)

I am going to stick my neck out on these questions so be nice please. There has been a ton of information of focused heeling on this forum. I have seen videos by the dozens with the dog looking up at the trainer as they heel. Here it goes:
Can a dog be considered to have a focused heel without staring up at the person constantly if she sticks with you like glue, head turned slightly toward the knee but only looks up on occasion and always when the person stops and the dog sits?
Can a dog's physical conformation make focused heeling harder to achieve? Impossible to achieve?
Can the breed of dog make learning a focused heel harder for them? ie herding breeds tendacy to look around more because that is inbred in them to keep track of sheep etc?

These questions came up at lunch the other day with fellow show exhibitors. I thought I would run them by the many trainers on this forum. Remember to be nice


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## Peter Cho (Apr 21, 2010)

Three points.
Attention of dog is where the dog's eyes are focused on.
Focused attention is specific to competition sports, obedience. It is competition. Test of dog and handler. Better focus, better outlook. Better points.
Sure looks beautiful when it is done perfectly, though.


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## Frank Phillips (Jan 8, 2008)

vicki dickey said:


> Can the breed of dog make learning a focused heel harder for them? ie herding breeds tendacy to look around more because that is inbred in them to keep track of sheep etc?


 I would say NO...German Shepherd and Belgian Malinois are both herding dogs...some of the best head straight up focused heeling I have ever seen is a couple of Border Collies down the street from me at a AKC place.....:grin:... to me it is all about drive and handler's training ability.


Frank


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

I would say yes. Of course conformation plays a part. How the head sits on the neck, the natural carriage etc. of course it will be more difficult for some dogs more than others.

It's kind of like asking, are all dogs the same to train. The answer is no.

I don't believe in 'no question is a dumb question'.


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Herding breeds do not look around more often. Some of our best heeling dogs are herding breeds, they have amazing focus and most certainly are among the last dogs I expect to look around.

Yes I think conformation plays a part in how a dog looks and moves. My BC has a longer more flexible neck and is longer in the leg than my ACD. Both dogs look up at me with good attention and stay close to my leg but my BC would me more capable of a stargazing position if that is what I wanted, which I dont.


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

vicki dickey said:


> I am going to stick my neck out on these questions so be nice please. There has been a ton of information of focused heeling on this forum. I have seen videos by the dozens with the dog looking up at the trainer as they heel. Here it goes:
> Can a dog be considered to have a focused heel without staring up at the person constantly if she sticks with you like glue, head turned slightly toward the knee but only looks up on occasion and always when the person stops and the dog sits?
> Can a dog's physical conformation make focused heeling harder to achieve? Impossible to achieve?
> Can the breed of dog make learning a focused heel harder for them? ie herding breeds tendacy to look around more because that is inbred in them to keep track of sheep etc?
> ...


The type of OB may have a bearing. In SchH they made a point of interpiting the rules about the dogs not having to maintain eye contact, but should maintain attention. Of course it may take awhile for the Judges to score this way and two dogs being equal except for eye contact the nod will go toward the eye contact dog, it just looks better. Personally I'm not that worried about eye contact as I was a few years ago.


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

Edward Egan said:


> The type of OB may have a bearing. In SchH they made a point of interpiting the rules about the dogs not having to maintain eye contact, but should maintain attention. Of course it may take awhile for the Judges to score this way and two dogs being equal except for eye contact the nod will go toward the eye contact dog, it just looks better. Personally I'm not that worried about eye contact as I was a few years ago.


edward--did this rule change and i missed it (wouldn't surprise me, BTW)? from "eye contact" to "attention"? and is it "association"-specific? 

i like the change, and as i'm working on "fuss", the difference will make a difference in my training plans (in a good way, IMO, for my dog).


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

The rule was always "Attention" never eye contact. Competitors and Judges made eye contact an "Un-official rule" from what I understand. At least in SchH.


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## vicki dickey (Jul 5, 2011)

I compete mainly in OB, rally and agility in AKC and ASCA. The aussie puppy Indy is doing beautifully with focused heeling. Being a puppy he can get distracted but quickly returns his attention to me looking right up at me. Its been almost effortless. Indy is built with a longer neck and it seems easy for him to maintain a focus. Zak my 17 month old aussie is built with a short neck and a strong muscular compact body. I can see it is a lot harder for him to maintain that position of his head and neck and shoulders. He heels beautifully and stays right with me -forward, sideways and backward-but not always looking up and yet has drive and focus. I personally think it should not matter-pretty picture or not. As pretty as it might look, it really doesnt look totally natural for some dogs. Sort of like what the Quarter horse people did with the slow lope and a low nose in headset. Some horses were built to do that slow lope while others were forced into it which caused many of the horses to lope in front and trot in back or made them move so ackward that it was painful to watch and did not make a smooth ride either. 
It makes me wonder what training is really about sometimes. Heeling use to be more of a position=I never remember there being a description that the dog must focus on your face. So I have to guess that a dog entered a ring that naturally looked at his trainer as he heeled and a new way to heel was born. So now trainers find all kinds of way to get that perfect focused heeling. Just like the horses with the headsets, slow lopes and tailsets. At least with dogs I havent heard of denerving tails, etc to achieve the newest look in training. I hope dog trainers never stoop that low.
I guess this post will create a stir but it is my opinion and everyone has one. I agree that a focused heel is pretty to see on a dog that can do it effortlessly just like the horse that can naturally lope slowly can literally float beautifully across the ground. I am just saying not every dog or every horse can do it with that natural ability and sometimes the trained result isnt that great to see.


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## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

Frank Phillips said:


> I would say NO...German Shepherd and Belgian Malinois are both herding dogs...some of the best head straight up focused heeling I have ever seen is a couple of Border Collies down the street from me at a AKC place.....:grin:... to me it is all about drive and handler's training ability.
> 
> 
> Frank


200% agree.


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

The local judges here dont seem too focussed on the head straight up position. My ACD with her short stocky neck has a beautifull powerful heel and she looks up at me when heeling but not in that head straight up along the leg position, I dont think her build would allow that comfortably really. When I was competing with her in obedience it never went against her and she beat some head straight up dogs. Dogs can do a nice focussed heel, looking at your face, with a nice engaged gait without their heads straight up.


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

vicki dickey said:


> I compete mainly in OB, rally and agility in AKC and ASCA. The aussie puppy Indy is doing beautifully with focused heeling. Being a puppy he can get distracted but quickly returns his attention to me looking right up at me. Its been almost effortless. Indy is built with a longer neck and it seems easy for him to maintain a focus. Zak my 17 month old aussie is built with a short neck and a strong muscular compact body. I can see it is a lot harder for him to maintain that position of his head and neck and shoulders. He heels beautifully and stays right with me -forward, sideways and backward-but not always looking up and yet has drive and focus. I personally think it should not matter-pretty picture or not. As pretty as it might look, it really doesnt look totally natural for some dogs. Sort of like what the Quarter horse people did with the slow lope and a low nose in headset. Some horses were built to do that slow lope while others were forced into it which caused many of the horses to lope in front and trot in back or made them move so ackward that it was painful to watch and did not make a smooth ride either.
> It makes me wonder what training is really about sometimes. Heeling use to be more of a position=I never remember there being a description that the dog must focus on your face. So I have to guess that a dog entered a ring that naturally looked at his trainer as he heeled and a new way to heel was born. So now trainers find all kinds of way to get that perfect focused heeling. Just like the horses with the headsets, slow lopes and tailsets. At least with dogs I havent heard of denerving tails, etc to achieve the newest look in training. I hope dog trainers never stoop that low.
> I guess this post will create a stir but it is my opinion and everyone has one. I agree that a focused heel is pretty to see on a dog that can do it effortlessly just like the horse that can naturally lope slowly can literally float beautifully across the ground. I am just saying not every dog or every horse can do it with that natural ability and sometimes the trained result isnt that great to see.


Vicky, I am going to create a stir and say from all the posts that you have previously posted about your older aussie, you have trouble maintaining attention and drive with him, and you are lukewarm about the idea of training an attention heel to begin with. I am guessing your issue does not have to do with the dog's neck or breed.

Yes conformation does play a part, and yes, some will look more pretty or effortless, but you can get focused heeling in various ways, doesn't have to be eyes to the skies, could be a slight head turn and so on, but that has nothing to do with them looking around.

I do not have the best competition heeling in the world. It is because of MY lack of attention in training the details, and MY lack of knowledge. It has nothing to do with the breed or their necks, even though neither has perfect confirmation for prancing ponies.

Here is a photo of a dog of mine that is built pretty similar to an aussie. Though it is not looking up at the sky, it is attention heeling, and if the dog looks away, I will not blame it on the breed, or his conformation.


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## vicki dickey (Jul 5, 2011)

Jennifer Zak will heel exactly like your dog but then will lower his head for several steps and look back up again. When his hormones kicked in I did have a problem keeping his attention if female dogs were around but this was fixed with training .I was just trying to point out conformation can keep him from mainting the head position constantly whereas Indy my longer necked/leaner aussie (more like the dog in your pic) can easily keep his head up throughout his heeling. 
I also am not one to pay attention to every little detail. My dogs score in the 190's in OB and high 90's in rally with the exception of one class with Zak when his nose got the best of him when he was 12 months old. I have never shown an intact male -funny one week he never cared and the next he was a stud muffin. I was not prepared for that. 
I am all for a focused heel-I love how it looks and it is necessary to have your dog's attention on you. I am just saying that for some dogs it isnt as easy, and if they relax their necks and lower their head for several steps but stay right with you it doesnt mean they are not driven or do not have their attention on you.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I think focused heeling should be no problem with ANY dog/breed that has good structure.


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## vicki dickey (Jul 5, 2011)

I dont agree at all. I dont think my structure is bad at all but my tall lean body makes gymnastics not so easy since it is a sport that shorter people do best at. And those shorter people probably think their structure is just fine even though basketball isnt quite right for them.


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

vicki dickey said:


> I am just saying that for some dogs it isnt as easy, and if they relax their necks and lower their head for several steps but stay right with you it doesnt mean they are not driven or do not have their attention on you.


*If *your criteria for attention is eye contact, then they in fact are not paying attention to you if they look away. However if your criteria for attention heeling has allowed the dog to look away, as long as e dog is maintaining position, then the dog is doing what it was trained to and you can't fault the dog for it.

What I am saying is that you can blame the looking away on your dog's conformation, but it is likely your training of the exercise that is to blame. I should know, I have allowed all sorts of things in ob that later I decide are not okay LOL, and then have to fix. It is not the dog's fault! 

It is no great athletic feat to have a dog look at you in some fashion (maybe not head straight to the sky) at you while moving in an ob routine. If we were talking about getting a pug to do the palisade....then I would agree with you on real disadvantages in conformation


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## vicki dickey (Jul 5, 2011)

I think we have a problem with words. "Looking away" as you wrote to me would be the dog looking to the left or right to see whats there. I am saying he is lowering his head but you can see his eye on me so he knows exactly where I am going. He does this for maybe 2-3 steps and to me it is as if he is relieving his neck muscles for a couple seconds and resumes position. Maybe I am wrong and it is just a thing he does.
Anyway it wasnt my dog I wrote this post about in the first place but came from a conversation several OB friends were having. I say never say never.


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## Jennifer Marshall (Dec 13, 2007)

Vicky when I teach an attention heel I don't accept that kind of heeling where the dog regularly drops its head regardless of if I think the dog is paying attention. Sounds like you don't mind it and have allowed it not that the dog can't maintain the head up position. I have bulldogs and get a nice head up attention heel. Pretty sure ABs are bulkier/heavier built than Aussies and quite a few do very nice attention heeling.

IMO the only thing breed has to do with attention heel is length of neck might impede the stargazer heel but the type of attention in Jennifer C's shouldn't be a problem for a dog if trained properly. Attention heeling takes time, it is very easy to rush and not do all the steps needed to achieve a full attention heel.

Since I do mondio I didn't teach my AB an attention heel from the start I have 2 types of heeling with different commands one means lean on my leg the other is only for the heeling exercise and for attention heel which I just started teaching about 6 weeks ago. I have taught attention heeling to various dogs/breeds and find that the dog will show you which style will be best by how it naturally holds its head in attention when I start off using visible rewards(ball/tug) on my left shoulder. I don't teach the dog to look at my face I teach them to look at my left shoulder/armpit which looks like they are staring at my face.


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## vicki dickey (Jul 5, 2011)

Jennifer M. your post got me wondering so I called Zak over and heeled him through the great room and back and discovered something. Zak is a look into my eyes dog not my hand or my armpit. If I heel and turn my head towards him he looks up at me-if I turn my head straight and do not look at him I can see him looking forward and then back again. I tried it with Indy who is not a dog that stares in my face all the time. He keeps his head in position. I never put that together before. Hmmm Will it mess up his heeling by redirecting his focus? He has gotten great scores in heeling at the trails-do I just leave well enough alone?


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## Skip Morgart (Dec 19, 2008)

My SchH 3 dog has scored in the 90's many times in OB, and I have NEVER taught the focus heeling. I think it looks weird, and I will never teach it. The dog must be attentive to the handler, and this has just went to the unnecessary extreme. I have spoke to many SV judges about it, and I have been told the constant eye focus receives no extra points over a dog that maintains position. There is a shepherd in our club that usually scores high in OB (has for years) in our trials (high 90's), and has never done the "focus heeling". From what I've been told by the judges, they believe it's being way over done also. I was told by one judge that scH work was an intro for possible police service dogs in germany, still is in many areas, and the "focus heeling" would be a hindrance in real life situations. The dog can maintain position very easily by using it's peripheral vision, and the service dogs are expected to be watching EVERYTHING that is going on around them, while maintaing proper heel position.


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## Skip Morgart (Dec 19, 2008)

I have also seen reports of dogs developing neck and shoulder issues over time from the exaggerated bend.


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## vicki dickey (Jul 5, 2011)

Interesting post Skip and I have to agree with you.
In AKC on a heel-
Chapter 3 Section 5 reads:​"The principal feature of this exercise is the ability of the dog and handler to work as a team.

So maybe the bottom line is not so much how the head is set but that you and your dog have that teamwork .
Of course in other types of competiton you might need that headset etc. Like I said before when you compare it to horses you have trainers who have changed the look of the western pleasure quarter horse so much that the poor horses do not look natural. I think dog trainers have done the same thing thru the years with dogs. Is it good or bad-thats your decision to make. I can tell you that it is sad what horse trainers have done to the horses they are training to achieve the "in" look. Instead of working with the animal that can naturally bend or look up or whatever they try to make every animal into that perfect picture regardless of its physical capabilities. And you have to wonder what it does to the animal down the road.


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## Skip Morgart (Dec 19, 2008)

vicki dickey said:


> Interesting post Skip and I have to agree with you.
> In AKC on a heel-
> Chapter 3 Section 5 reads:​
> "The principal feature of this exercise is the ability of the dog and handler to work as a team.
> ...


I'll never teach a dog the highly exaggerated focus heeling. I think it looks spastic, un-natural, and from what a lot of judges have told me it doesn't gain any points over a dog that maintains good position with occasional glances at the handler. To me, it's not much different than the crazy exaggerated angulation used by the GSD show folks...people think if a little is OK, then a huge amount MUST be better. That exaggerated angulation has ruined the proper structure.


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Skip Morgart said:


> I'll never teach a dog the highly exaggerated focus heeling. I think it looks spastic, un-natural, and from what a lot of judges have told me it doesn't gain any points over a dog that maintains good position with occasional glances at the handler. To me, it's not much different than the crazy exaggerated angulation used by the GSD show folks...people think if a little is OK, then a huge amount MUST be better. That exaggerated angulation has ruined the proper structure.


I agree with you, it makes me feel uncomfortable just watching it and I would not train it in my dogs regardless. For some dogs though it is probably much less of an effort physically than others, I think my flexible, long necked BC could do it reletively comfortably although I dont know what the long term effects might be if it was trained and performed relentlessly. 

You can have a dog that maintains good position and looks up at you, maintaining eye contact without the unnatural looking position. 

I have only done ANKC type obedience where it is not a requirement, but dont know about other venues.


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