# New pup, Robbie II. Born July 15th, 2013.



## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Picked up the new pup today! Wanted to share the joy... Robbie II, halfbrother to Robbie I :lol: 

Berry2/Lamers offspring. Can't wait for him to grow up, fingers are itching to get to work.


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## Haz Othman (Mar 25, 2013)

Love the pics he is a tiny guy 8 weeks?


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Haz Othman said:


> Love the pics he is a tiny guy 8 weeks?


6 weeks old  Born the 15th of Juli, 2013.


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## Tyree Johnson (Jun 21, 2010)

i've seen that pup somewhere ... maybe facebook?


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Alice Bezemer said:


> 6 weeks old  Born the 15th of Juli, 2013.


Great pics .... and CONGRATULATIONS! 8)


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Tyree Johnson said:


> i've seen that pup somewhere ... maybe facebook?


Yup, on the DutchWorkingdogs FB page :lol:

Now you know who DWD is


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## Tyree Johnson (Jun 21, 2010)

Alice Bezemer said:


> Yup, on the DutchWorkingdogs FB page :lol:
> 
> Now you know who DWD is


how did i not know!!!! ahhh i got it now


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

awwww, he's darling! Congratulations on your new project!


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## Anna Kasho (Jan 16, 2008)

Awwww. Cute baby puppy... They grow up so fast...


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## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

Nice Alice, cute lil gator you have there.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Beautiful pup! 
Gonna make a ratter out of him huh? :grin: :wink:


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## Lisa Radcliffe (Jun 9, 2011)

Congrats! beautiful pictures and pedigree-


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Bob Scott said:


> Beautiful pup!
> Gonna make a ratter out of him huh? :grin: :wink:


:lol: Just like his older brother 

Had to start of with a smaller rat tho, gave him a big one like Robbie I used to have but he immediately got romantically involved and Humped the stuffing out it.


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

Very nice Alice! 

Continued success.


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## Austin Porter (Oct 14, 2011)

Good looking boy.. Congrats!


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## Catherine Gervin (Mar 12, 2012)

he is so wee and adorable!! is it inappropriate to say PRECIOUS--'cause he is!-- since he's going to be such a powerhouse when he grows up?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

I like him...he looks ornery


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Joby Becker said:


> I like him...he looks ornery


Not only looks it! :lol:

he can be a right ornery lil fooker :-o


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

I love the smell of puppy breath in the morning! What a scamp.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Darling, cute, wee, adorable?

For me he looks like a Mal with a mission and that at 6 weeks! I know you'll master the "uglyl B" Alice so won't wish you good luck.


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## kristin tresidder (Oct 23, 2008)

Gorgeous


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## catherine hardigan (Oct 12, 2009)

I've been thinking this for a while and I mean it in the nicest possible way, but would it kill the Dutch to get even a little more creative with their dog names?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

catherine hardigan said:


> I've been thinking this for a while and I mean it in the nicest possible way, but would it kill the Dutch to get even a little more creative with their dog names?


the Dutch?


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Alice Bezemer said:


> :lol: Just like his older brother
> 
> Had to start of with a smaller rat tho, gave him a big one like Robbie I used to have but he immediately got romantically involved and Humped the stuffing out it.



:lol::lol: Just convince yourself he was dominating the rat and not making love. :lol::lol:

I did once have a terrier mix that was so ugly I swore his mom was waylaid by a rat.  ;-)


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

catherine hardigan said:


> I've been thinking this for a while and I mean it in the nicest possible way, but would it kill the Dutch to get even a little more creative with their dog names?


Blasphemer! :lol:

A good name is a good name and should be recycled! Actually, to say "The dutch" ? Nahhh, its not the dutch in general to pick the same name. 

But let me explain the repeat name for you so it makes sense. To long and it takes to much time to pronounce it in a command or together with a command, to short and not enough pressure can be applied with the use of the name.

A dogs name can be used just like a command and to put pressure on the dog. Certain names just work better for this purpose.


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## Ellen Piepers (Nov 6, 2008)

I like that look on his face


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Ellen Piepers said:


> I like that look on his face


ornery isnt it? already saying F-U Alice!!!


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## catherine hardigan (Oct 12, 2009)

Alice Bezemer said:


> Blasphemer! :lol:
> 
> A good name is a good name and should be recycled! Actually, to say "The dutch" ? Nahhh, its not the dutch in general to pick the same name.
> 
> ...


There are three dogs named Rudy in your puppy's pedigree in like three generations. There are plenty of other two syllable words out there to choose from. Please tell me that you will name him something that ends in "-o," since that is how like 6/10 dogs over there are apparently named... maybe Arco, or Duco, or Rico or or or. Then again, you can just stick with Berry like his dad and brother. 

Sorry... you set yourself up for that.


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

catherine hardigan said:


> There are three dogs named Rudy in your puppy's pedigree in like three generations. There are plenty of other two syllable words out there to choose from. Please tell me that you will name him something that ends in "-o," since that is how like 6/10 dogs over there are apparently named... maybe Arco, or Duco, or Rico or or or. Then again, you can just stick with Berry like his dad and brother.
> 
> Sorry... you set yourself up for that.


Nahhhh I like his name...I'll meet you halfway tho. How about Robbie 2.0? :lol:


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Joby Becker said:


> ornery isnt it? already saying F-U Alice!!!


All I can say to that is.... You are correct! :lol: Ornery to the ****ing bone and quite the temper on him. Pretty much how I like em!


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## Timothy Saunders (Mar 12, 2009)

what a beautiful german shepherd pup.


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## Colin Chin (Sep 20, 2006)

Hi Alice,
Congrats on acquiring Robbie II. Times fly yeah. Oh that toy rat again. Appreciate if you could how you choose him and what training you are doing with him now ? Is he kennel bound or indoor kept ? Let us know your progress with the training with Robbie II. Thanks once again.


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Timothy Saunders said:


> what a beautiful german shepherd pup.


:-o :-s :? :| =; [-X


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Colin Chin said:


> Hi Alice,
> Congrats on acquiring Robbie II. Times fly yeah. Oh that toy rat again. Appreciate if you could how you choose him and what training you are doing with him now ? Is he kennel bound or indoor kept ? Let us know your progress with the training with Robbie II. Thanks once again.


Yep, gotta have the rat handy :lol: How did I choose him.... He had a nice ornery face and his bellybutton was intact. Thats all I needed to know.  I picked him out of the litter as they were all still asleep, checked his bellybutton and thought... You will do. Put him in the car and that was it :lol: Spent an hour at the breeder, drinking coffee and 30 seconds picking the pup. 

He is going to be trained for KNPV Policedog 1.

He went straight into the kennel. I never keep a working pup or dog in the house. Whatever time of year it is, they go straight outside and into the kennel. He has a large shed that is fully isolated with 2 night sleeping areas and a walkout to an outside kennel. 

Will post pics and video's of his progress as he grows up.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Awesomeness! he looks cool, love the darkness.
The important question though, did he have the biggest head?


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Matt Vandart said:


> Awesomeness! he looks cool, love the darkness.
> The important question though, did he have the biggest head?


Nope :lol:

the biggest head was a female! :-o 

So we have nr 2 in headsize but I think he got the lionsshare in attitude :lol:


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Does he respond to a clicker yet? :-o :-# :grin:


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## Colin Chin (Sep 20, 2006)

Alice,
Looking forward to your pics and videos to come soon.


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Bob Scott said:


> Does he respond to a clicker yet? :-o :-# :grin:


Okay, that made me spit out my morning coffee! Thank you, Bob. :lol:


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## Colin Chin (Sep 20, 2006)

how's the training like ? Positive, compulsion. ball, tug or food ?


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Colin Chin said:


> how's the training like ? Positive, compulsion. ball, tug or food ?


No ball, tug or food. As for positive or compulsion... I like to keep training as positive as possible but will use compulsion for most things depending on the dog in front of me. Right now I forsee a lot of compulsion in this pup's future tho.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Alice Bezemer said:


> Okay, that made me spit out my morning coffee! Thank you, Bob. :lol:



I figured you'd laugh or put me in your cross hair. Glad you took in in the spirit it was meant! :lol: 
I know his training will be excellent.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> I figured you'd laugh or put me in your cross hair. Glad you took in in the spirit it was meant! :lol:
> I know his training will be excellent.


That was funny. Like Colin, I'm sorta interested in the road to KNPV also even at this baby stage--how Alice starts them.

T


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Bob Scott said:


> I figured you'd laugh or put me in your cross hair. Glad you took in in the spirit it was meant! :lol:
> I know his training will be excellent.


I was in a good mood, figured i'd spare ye this time lad :lol:


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> That was funny. Like Colin, I'm sorta interested in the road to KNPV also even at this baby stage--how Alice starts them.
> 
> T


At the puppystage I keep it simple, no pressure, see what he shows me in terms of interest for anything and build on that. Positive only to make sure you utilize his natural abilities. Anything taught in play and natural ability and interest is a bonus you should use to work with. Its not easy to explain how I start with any pup since its different with each pup, one might be stronger then the other at this age so he would need a different aproach...

I keep things extremely black and white tho. Once a rule is set it is not to be broken in any way or by any means regardless if it is a pup or not. 

I do forsee compulsion in this pup's future tho. He has quite the temper and is very strongwilled to the level of flipping out at even the slightest correction. Where as Robbie I was a very laid back pup who was extremely happy go lucky in whatever you did, this one has a temper to match his ornery little head :lol:

We shall see what the future brings for him but I will try and keep y'all updated on his progress.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

first ...i keep it simple with no pressure at the puppy stage etc etc.....

then...
"quite the temper and is very strongwilled to the level of flipping out at even the slightest correction"

sounds like an interesting pup 

... so what sort of things have you had to correct him for ? //lol//


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

rick smith said:


> first ...i keep it simple with no pressure at the puppy stage etc etc.....
> 
> then...
> "quite the temper and is very strongwilled to the level of flipping out at even the slightest correction"
> ...


One doesn't exclude the other, Rick.  Things can be simple even with a pup that has a temper. 

What did I have to correct him for? :lol: Pretty much everything right now but that's what pups are all about... growing up and learning through corrections and reward is part of pup life. I shouldn't have to tell you that


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

I was sorta wondering too--what's to correct at this age? I can remember a CTJ with Ingrid over clipping nails at 9 weeks but can't really think of other things that might come up at 6 weeks. What kind of things does he throw a temper tantrum over? This is not a method question BTW, just wondering as to type of dog and what you see at such a young age.

T


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

What's not to correct? pretty much everything around a pup at this age is fair game for him to chew, nibble and bite on. Thats something I correct in him. No chewing, nibbling or biting on anything that isn't meant for that purpose. If you do chew and keep on trying to pass me by to go back to that behaviour... you get corrected! I'm not sure why that is such a big thing tho? Doesn't everyone correct unwanted behaviour in their pups? As for the temper tantrum.... He doesn't like to be kept from what he has his sights on like the powercord of the radio, he gets a right hissyfit when told NO or pushed away and corrected over this. He likes to get his way, he aint going to get it tho.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Not a big deal. I think its perspective. Mine aren't loose to get into things they shouldn't. I keep a long line on them at that age or an ex-pen for when I don't want to supervise. They can't get to things I don't want them to so nothing to really get after them for other than trying to swallow one of my ducks whole which was Rhemy's correctable offense or in Khyndra's case, trying to chase the cat. Rhemy did go through a stage of throwing a hissy with restraining him from the stock but he's gotten over that--a little older than your little guy though. By the time they are running the house loose, they've outgrown interest in my things and know how to park it somewhere.

T


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Not a big deal. I think its perspective. Mine aren't loose to get into things they shouldn't. I keep a long line on them at that age or an ex-pen for when I don't want to supervise. They can't get to things I don't want them to so nothing to really get after them for other than trying to swallow one of my ducks whole which was Rhemy's correctable offense or in Khyndra's case, trying to chase the cat. Rhemy did go through a stage of throwing a hissy with restraining him from the stock but he's gotten over that--a little older than your little guy though. By the time they are running the house loose, they've outgrown interest in my things and know how to park it somewhere.
> 
> T


He doesn't get into the house, just the kitchen when he is out in the yard. He is mostly kenneled but I give him some space to just run and play and do his idiot puppy things. He goes for pretty much anything that moves but thats a pup for you.  I want them to learn at a young age that there are strict rules to abide by, I do not take anything out of their path or move things away for a pup, that would defeat them learning the rules. For me a dog, regardless of what the intentions in training for that dog are, should know what is expected of it and what is allowed or not allowed. I should be able to set him loose in my livingroom at some point without having to worry that he might break, chew or shred something. I have them for about 3 years and after that he gets a handler or owner who might decide to let him roam the house and I do not want to saddle that handler with a lot of problems of having to deal with a 3 year old with an attitude when it comes to indoor behaviour.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Alice Bezemer said:


> He doesn't get into the house, just the kitchen when he is out in the yard. He is mostly kenneled but I give him some space to just run and play and do his idiot puppy things. He goes for pretty much anything that moves but thats a pup for you.  I want them to learn at a young age that there are strict rules to abide by, I do not take anything out of their path or move things away for a pup, that would defeat them learning the rules. For me a dog, regardless of what the intentions in training for that dog are, should know what is expected of it and what is allowed or not allowed. I should be able to set him loose in my livingroom at some point without having to worry that he might break, chew or shred something. I have them for about 3 years and after that he gets a handler or owner who might decide to let him roam the house and I do not want to saddle that handler with a lot of problems of having to deal with a 3 year old with an attitude when it comes to indoor behaviour.


Yep, I'm big on house manners and I ought to be able to leave it loose in the house when I leave when its mature. My pups lead a VERY structured life until they are "trained" and reliable. We have the same goal, just different paths. Seems like I do most of my early training in the kitchen.

T


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Both my GSDs spent the first 6-8 months in the house. All the ob behaviors were taught markers and no corrections. 
House manners are an entirely different thing. :twisted: The key to that is I work hard to avoid situations they need a correction......but a pup with attitude is still expected to obey house rules. 
To many terriers over the years to let that slip. 
I've never seen any dog I've ever had have carry over from obeying in the house to problems on the training field. A nice bite on a sleeve has nothing to do with my hands/arms/legs/ankles getting trashed from ill manners.
Same goes for terriers and critters. I ain't no frickin raccoon/fox/groundhog/rat/possum to be chewed on.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Alice Bezemer said:


> He doesn't get into the house, just the kitchen when he is out in the yard. He is mostly kenneled but I give him some space to just run and play and do his idiot puppy things. He goes for pretty much anything that moves but thats a pup for you.  I want them to learn at a young age that there are strict rules to abide by, I do not take anything out of their path or move things away for a pup, that would defeat them learning the rules. For me a dog, regardless of what the intentions in training for that dog are, should know what is expected of it and what is allowed or not allowed. I should be able to set him loose in my livingroom at some point without having to worry that he might break, chew or shred something. I have them for about 3 years and after that he gets a handler or owner who might decide to let him roam the house and I do not want to saddle that handler with a lot of problems of having to deal with a 3 year old with an attitude when it comes to indoor behaviour.


Sound post. I wish all breeders had the same thinking. A pup has to test how far he can go, just like we humans!


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Gillian Schuler said:


> Sound post. I wish all breeders had the same thinking. A pup has to test how far he can go, just like we humans!


Why, what do you gain from that in this context?

T


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## Colin Chin (Sep 20, 2006)

Alice,
Thanks for the insight shared. How do you correct a pup for his age ? Use hand to slap his mouth if caught chewing things or nibbling on handler's fingers or feet to start of with ?


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Colin Chin said:


> Alice,
> Thanks for the insight shared. How do you correct a pup for his age ? Use hand to slap his mouth if caught chewing things or nibbling on handler's fingers or feet to start of with ?


I use his puppy handle :lol: I pick him up at the scruff and tell him no to start with, a small shake may be applied depending on attitude or response given, and then I put him aside and away from me. If this doesn't give the desired effect then a small tap to the butt might be applied. 

I never slap or tap the mouth or head, not because its cruell but because pups and dogs are always fast enough to latch on to your fingers :lol: Nothing worse then those little razors latched onto a finger in vengeance!


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## Colin Chin (Sep 20, 2006)

Alice,
Do you leash your pup the moment you brought him out from his kennel so as to avoid him chewing or picking up bad traits/habits ? Thanks.


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Colin Chin said:


> Alice,
> Do you leash your pup the moment you brought him out from his kennel so as to avoid him chewing or picking up bad traits/habits ? Thanks.


Leashes are for walking the dog and training on the field. He has the run of the yard and kitchen and which ever other place I decide to let him go in. He can not learn if I prevent him from even making a mistake....

Live and learn is how it works. Preventive measures to avoid possible issues are no way to raise a pup.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Why, what do you gain from that in this context?
> 
> T


Just what Alice said (and did not say) but, reading between the lines, I read sensible, responsible breeder.

Pups should, in my opinion, grow up in an environment where they are faced with many temptations, allowing the breeder to intervene, therefore making it easier for the new handler.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Alice Bezemer said:


> I use his puppy handle :lol: I pick him up at the scruff and tell him no to start with, a small shake may be applied depending on attitude or response given, and then I put him aside and away from me. If this doesn't give the desired effect then a small tap to the butt might be applied.
> 
> I never slap or tap the mouth or head, not because its cruell but because pups and dogs are always fast enough to latch on to your fingers :lol: Nothing worse then those little razors latched onto a finger in vengeance!


I used the puppy handle when the new 8 week old GSD first entered our garden. He made straight for me, humped my leg, at which I had him by the scruff of his neck and said "no". He then tried it again and I used the puppy handle and threw him a yard or two away. He never did it again. He was always Toni's dog but he respected me.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Never knew how I grabbed a pia pup was called "grabbing the puppy handle" but that's what I've always done with them. 
NEVER hit a pup in the face. If it doesn't go for the hand it's going to be a hand shy pup in the end. 
If the scruff shake doesn't work I just scruff them and hold them off their feet till they settle down.


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## Colin Chin (Sep 20, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> Never knew how I grabbed a pia pup was called "grabbing the puppy handle" but that's what I've always done with them.
> NEVER hit a pup in the face. If it doesn't go for the hand it's going to be a hand shy pup in the end.
> If the scruff shake doesn't work I just scruff them and hold them off their feet till they settle down.


Thanks, Bob.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

By settle down I mean relax their body. If they are tense even when still they haven't said uncle.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Gillian Schuler said:


> I used the puppy handle when the new 8 week old GSD first entered our garden. He made straight for me, humped my leg, at which I had him by the scruff of his neck and said "no". He then tried it again and I used the puppy handle and threw him a yard or two away. He never did it again. He was always Toni's dog but he respected me.


Had the very same experience with my eight week old gsd pup, (in fact, not just the last pup, but the one previous too), humped my leg for pretty much the first two or three days very frequently, happens cos they're stressed and stimulated I reckon. I did eff all, both dogs never did it ever again! No apparent trust or respect issues neither.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

maggie fraser said:


> Had the very same experience with my eight week old gsd pup, (in fact, not just the last pup, but the one previous too), humped my leg for pretty much the first two or three days very frequently, happens cos they're stressed and stimulated I reckon. I did eff all, both dogs never did it ever again! No apparent trust or respect issues neither.


Hi Maggie

All I can say is our humper was not stressed - not in the least but he acquiesced when at the second attempt I threw him away. He once ran round the garden with a large hedgehog in his mouth. It was very early morning - Toni was away and my calling out "Platz" was ineffectual for a few minutes but then thank God, he let him fall.

Cutting the same dogs toe nails was another picture. I had to tie him up shortly and when he realised he was "done for" he gave in and I could start trimming.


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## R Janssen (Jul 25, 2008)

Gefeliciteerd.
De stamboom aan moeders kant heeft ook genoeg kwaliteit dus dat belooft nog wat. :mrgreen:


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## Noel Long (Mar 13, 2013)

*Puppy punishment vs none*

This discussion of puppy punishment conflicts with other statements I've read here. I have learned, via this forum, that some owners intentionally do not punish behaviors such as biting, barking, and jumping up so that A) the dog will offer those behaviors in training and B) the dog is confident. Sentences like, 'only bring him around club members who understand jumping and biting is tolerated.' 

I am not saying one is right or wrong.

I have been stunned imagining how those owners live with the dogs (kennel only?), and daunted by the idea that such an upbringing is in my future. 

This discussion is the opposite. The method is also aligned with raising a household pet.

How do you choose?


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

René Hendriks said:


> Gefeliciteerd.
> De stamboom aan moeders kant heeft ook genoeg kwaliteit dus dat belooft nog wat. :mrgreen:


We gaan het meemaken :lol: Beide kanten zien er leuk uit, vandaar de keuze op dit nest. Voorlopig is hij al omgedoopt van Robbie naar gifkikker dus ik heb er alle vertrouwen in dat het een intresante ervaring gaat worden :lol:


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

*Re: Puppy punishment vs none*



Noel Long said:


> This discussion of puppy punishment conflicts with other statements I've read here. I have learned, via this forum, that some owners intentionally do not punish behaviors such as biting, barking, and jumping up so that A) the dog will offer those behaviors in training and B) the dog is confident. Sentences like, 'only bring him around club members who understand jumping and biting is tolerated.'
> 
> I am not saying one is right or wrong.
> 
> ...


I don't really think there is a choice, just a different point of view. I raise all of my dogs the same way, be it a pet or a worker. You will abide by my rules or suffer the consequences.

There are some that feel if a dog is told not to bite in upbringing then it will show in its training. I could not disagree more with that view tho. You teach your dog a limit, he will learn that there is a difference between work and time off. Some transfer their pup from a bite to the hand to a tug or rag... I tell the dog biting my hand is not allowed to begin with. It is best your dog knows at an early age that biting the hand that feeds it will not be tolerated instead of rewarding it with a transfer bite to a tug or toy. Teaching a dog manners has nothing to do with striping away confidence or taking away drive. Teach the dog what it is allowed, do not work around the issue by using other means, that is avoiding the problem to begin with. Deal with it and move on. A dog can handle punishment quite well as long as you keep in mind that there should be reward as well. It really isn't that hard.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

I have zero tolerance for biting the hand that feeds it. I was told years ago by protection sport people that they don't say "no" to the puppy or until the dog was over a year old. That doesn't work for me. For me if that's going to affect it in protection, then it probably doesn't have enough drive and character to begin with. But that said, my puppies don't run the house loose and have a long line. I don't have shoes, power cords or other things in the floor that they can get to. Usually I'm involved in something so stopping what I'm doing to correct, redirect or whatever every five minutes is not something I want to do so I make sure everything is picked up and they have a long line. I'm big on my puppies learning to chill out and lay at my feet while I'm doing things. I don't play with them in the house or entertain them. They get nylabones when they are little. There are tons of opportunities for training and learning self discipline and the handler/dog pack relationship without me dealing with them putting their mouths on things that don't belong to them. I haven't had one yet that will put his mouth on things that aren't his in adulthood having gone through this type of upbringing and all of my dogs are household pets. They simply aren't interested. You also have to know the temperament and drives of the dog. People make leaping generalizations because they aren't sure of what they have or that the people they train will have the judgment to make the right call so they say never do this, or never do that. I just had someone that trains with me call me this morning and say her dog 'in her excitement' bites her and has drawn blood. Her response was some sort of alpha roll maneuver. My response was that is why she keeps doing it. Done right, it takes one time. The same dog did it to me ONCE and I reminded her of that. She's afraid of it being a drive issue if she does something different. No, its a respect issue and has nothing to do with drive.



T


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

i may have posted this before but it came to mind again
/////
couple wanted help with their 1.5 yr old gsd
it came from a Ja PSD breeder washed because one nut didn't drop

VERY "Bitey" (not mouthy) as a 8wk pup when i first saw them, but at that time they didn't think they needed help and could do it just like the TV guy...husband even walked around like him and said he was the pack leader in the house //lol//

wife took more hits and had more than a few scars too
they had "been told" to redirect rather than correct. tried tugs but said peanut butter worked better...slop some on and pup would stop biting...it worked, in a relative way  .... and the biting increased for another year 
....dog also chewed/removed most of the molding in the house :-(

very nice dog overall even after taking both nuts off and that didn't seem to change its behavior at all


----------



## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

*Re: Puppy punishment vs none*



Alice Bezemer said:


> I don't really think there is a choice, just a different point of view. I raise all of my dogs the same way, be it a pet or a worker. You will abide by my rules or suffer the consequences.
> 
> There are some that feel if a dog is told not to bite in upbringing then it will show in its training. I could not disagree more with that view tho. You teach your dog a limit, he will learn that there is a difference between work and time off. Some transfer their pup from a bite to the hand to a tug or rag... I tell the dog biting my hand is not allowed to begin with. It is best your dog knows at an early age that biting the hand that feeds it will not be tolerated instead of rewarding it with a transfer bite to a tug or toy. Teaching a dog manners has nothing to do with striping away confidence or taking away drive. Teach the dog what it is allowed, do not work around the issue by using other means, that is avoiding the problem to begin with. Deal with it and move on. A dog can handle punishment quite well as long as you keep in mind that there should be reward as well. It really isn't that hard.


That says it in a nutshell.


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

*Re: Puppy punishment vs none*



Gillian Schuler said:


> That says it in a nutshell.



+1


----------



## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

*Re: Puppy punishment vs none*

8 weeks old yesterday, doubled in size... and attitude :lol:


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

2 weeks does make a lot difference in size.

T


----------



## Colin Chin (Sep 20, 2006)

*Re: Puppy punishment vs none*

Hi Alice,
Has he started any training so far ?


----------



## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

when u get some time Alice, i'm interested in how the stuffed toy figures in to your overall training, if at all
- i know you mentioned your previous dog had one similar to this one

specifics
- do you use it more like a pacifier type thing, to keep him from finding other stuff to chew on ?
- to control his possessiveness from getting something else to hang on to ?
- how long before they get destroyed, or does he not get it all the time ?
- i believe you also said you don't use toys much for training so this little rat makes me curious
- do you ever use it to tug with at all to start teaching an out, or is it his to have alone and just be his "BF" ?

...no sarcasm here; just curiosity....honestly


----------



## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

*Re: Puppy punishment vs none*



Colin Chin said:


> Hi Alice,
> Has he started any training so far ?


Nope, only training he gets is growing, sleeping and playing idiot for now


----------



## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

rick smith said:


> when u get some time Alice, i'm interested in how the stuffed toy figures in to your overall training, if at all
> - i know you mentioned your previous dog had one similar to this one
> 
> specifics
> ...


Robbie I had a stuffed Rat from Ikea .Only reason he had that was because I don't like using balls as playthings for dogs. The rat was his favorite stuffed toy because it would hit him in the face with its tail when he had it in his mouth and shaked his head. :lol: he liked holding something in his mouth so I obliged him.

Robbie II has his pick of the same stuffed animals that Robbie I had, his favorite is the long stuffed 2 foot Tiger :-k I do not plan to let him lug that around on the field tho! :lol: He is starting to take a liking to a kong crazy knot parrot type of thing, it will do for him to lug it around just like older brother did. 

They have no reason other then to just lay around for him to pick up, play with, and spit out again at will. They are his toys to do with as he pleases and there is no underlying thought behind it. They always get the toys all the time, if they destroy them then its tough luck, they are out of one toy! So far one pink zebra has been burried in the back yard but that is about all the damage that is done to them. 

I don't use toys as anything other then a toy for the dog to have fun with, no hidden ideas or meanings about them at all.


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

my first dog used to perform stuff-ectomies on his toys. I would gather up all the guts, re-stuff and re-sew for him. 

My fifth dog chewed apart a laz-e-boy chair. It was the only thing he chewed on. The chair was 40 years old and was due to be replaced so I shoved it to the middle of the floor and let him have at it. Took him about a year but eventually all that was left was enough cushion on the back, seat, and arms where he laid. I have a pic with him (he's 5 months old here) and his favorite bear toy about 4 months into the process. After about a year it went to the dump with almost the entire frame exposed and all the fabric and stuffing gone.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

My daughetr's Rott had one of those stuffed "pound puppies" ? as a toy. He carried it everywhere for a couple of years and never broke a single stitch in it......till they came over to my house with it and my JRT stole it from him and shredded it an about ten seconds. Evil little bassids!


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Sam never chewed on anything in the house (wires, wood corners, chew toys, etc) except for this chair. And my dogs are not kenneled or crated while I'm gone so I don't know why he picked on this item and no other. He carried that bear around for about 2 years, sleeping with it, etc before he give it up. Never hurt a hair on that bear's head.


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## Colin Chin (Sep 20, 2006)

*Re: Puppy punishment vs none*

Hi Alice,
At what age will Robie's training get started ? Thanks.


----------



## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

*Re: Puppy punishment vs none*



Colin Chin said:


> Hi Alice,
> At what age will Robie's training get started ? Thanks.


That would depend on what he shows me in behaviour. Right now its all play and fun, he already does the bark on command and has some minor things he does like stand on the box for the revier, he also knows the sit and down command and does a small range of metal pipe and key retrieves, but its all in play for now. Some light searching is the new game of the day. When he's about 6 or 7 months (lost all puppy teeth) he will be started in regular 3 times a week training at the club.


----------



## Colin Chin (Sep 20, 2006)

*Re: Puppy punishment vs none*



Alice Bezemer said:


> That would depend on what he shows me in behaviour. Right now its all play and fun, he already does the bark on command and has some minor things he does like stand on the box for the revier, he also knows the sit and down command and does a small range of metal pipe and key retrieves, but its all in play for now. Some light searching is the new game of the day. When he's about 6 or 7 months (lost all puppy teeth) he will be started in regular 3 times a week training at the club.


Hi Alice,
All the above fun play training is done inside the compound of your house or training field ? Thanks.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

Colin
i sure hope you realize "training" goes on whenever the dog is with the owner/handler ... it doesn't start when you hit the training field .. it will also be learning stuff when it's by itself 

don't get hung up on "training" labels and when you should start "training" a dog .. as Alice pointed out there are lots of things you can do with a pup that can be geared towards what you will be expecting it to do when it's grown up...and some pups can start taking a little more pressure earlier in life than others and still have fun in the process ... if you can read your dog properly you'll know

ime, people who think otherwise are surprised when their dog "suddenly" develops bad behaviors that they never realized were being subconsciously (trained) and conditioned ... now they are bad habits that become much tuffer to change 

don't have to be a damn slave driver; just be aware your dog is learning stuff and reading YOU all the time ... and they don't ask you questions


----------



## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

*Re: Puppy punishment vs none*



Colin Chin said:


> Hi Alice,
> All the above fun play training is done inside the compound of your house or training field ? Thanks.


It is done where I am at meaning, the field, the street, the car, the beach.

Training is 24/7/365-366 

It is not exclusively on trainingdays but every day, every minute. Every second in a pups/dogs life is a moment to learn for him/her. Everything I do with my dogs is with its future in mind so I am always working towards a specific goal or plan with the dog.


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

*Re: Puppy punishment vs none*



Alice Bezemer said:


> It is done where I am at meaning, the field, the street, the car, the beach.
> 
> Training is 24/7/365-366
> 
> It is not exclusively on trainingdays but every day, every minute. Every second in a pups/dogs life is a moment to learn for him/her. Everything I do with my dogs is with its future in mind so I am always working towards a specific goal or plan with the dog.


 
Interesting. And when you're not doing that, is the dog resting in the kennel?

Could you elaborate on the off times, if there is any. 


Thanks


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## Colin Chin (Sep 20, 2006)

rick smith said:


> Colin
> i sure hope you realize "training" goes on whenever the dog is with the owner/handler ... it doesn't start when you hit the training field .. it will also be learning stuff when it's by itself
> 
> don't get hung up on "training" labels and when you should start "training" a dog .. as Alice pointed out there are lots of things you can do with a pup that can be geared towards what you will be expecting it to do when it's grown up...and some pups can start taking a little more pressure earlier in life than others and still have fun in the process ... if you can read your dog properly you'll know
> ...


Hi Rick,
Thanks for your advice. Cheers.


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

*Re: Puppy punishment vs none*



Tiago Fontes said:


> Interesting. And when you're not doing that, is the dog resting in the kennel?
> 
> Could you elaborate on the off times, if there is any.
> 
> ...


No specific times, if hes awake he's awake and does his thing but everything always happens with his training in mind.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

*Re: Puppy punishment vs none*



Alice Bezemer said:


> No specific times, if hes awake he's awake and does his thing but everything always happens with his training in mind.



+1
If they are awake and with me then some sort of game will be played geared towards better manners, better OB, etc. 
I've been accused of constantly asking for something from my dogs even as pups but if it's a game and they are having fun then why not! I've not had a pup or a grown dog tell me to go ***** yourself. When they say that (I don't believe they do) it would tell me "I'm" making mistakes.


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## Stacey Beller (Dec 9, 2012)

Nice looking Pup


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## Billie Fletcher (May 13, 2013)

Interesting reading thanks guys, and cute pup! Love that rat toy haha!


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

*Re: Puppy punishment vs none*



Bob Scott said:


> +1
> If they are awake and with me then some sort of game will be played geared towards better manners, better OB, etc.
> I've been accused of constantly asking for something from my dogs even as pups but if it's a game and they are having fun then why not! I've not had a pup or a grown dog tell me to go ***** yourself. When they say that (I don't believe they do) it would tell me "I'm" making mistakes.


Nothing for nothing in this house. Pup wants something, then he will have to do something for it. Never had a dog tell me to go **** myself either, if you look at your dog and use your head you know the limits and he will never tell you such things. 

I am a firm believer that a happy dog is a dog that knows its place and whats expected of it. Its a dog that doesn't have to be told constantly to "Let go of that - go away - leave it - no biting - bad boy - move out of my way - stop doing that - etc etc etc" 

A dog that you constantly have to tell what to do or not to do is a dog that mentally never gets any rest or settles down and is always anticipating the next "remark" from you regarding its behaviour. Teach it manners quickly, show what you want and expect and your dog will be a happier and thankful boy/girl for it.


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

*Re: Puppy punishment vs none*



Alice Bezemer said:


> I am a firm believer that a happy dog is a dog that knows its place and whats expected of it. Its a dog that doesn't have to be told constantly to "Let go of that - go away - leave it - no biting - bad boy - move out of my way - stop doing that - etc etc etc"
> 
> A dog that you constantly have to tell what to do or not to do is a dog that mentally never gets any rest or settles down and is always anticipating the next "remark" from you regarding its behaviour. Teach it manners quickly, show what you want and expect and your dog will be a happier and thankful boy/girl for it.


+10. On sooooo many levels.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

This is often why many trainers have an outside kennel for their dogs. Male trainers are at work mostly during the day and their female partners have shooed the dog out of the way, scolded it for stealing the kids' stuffed toys, for rummaging in the litter bin, for barking, and, and, and.

Of course it can be vice versa!! Hubby at home - handler at work.

How much this affects the dog in the end run, I would not like to hazard a guess. It cannot be good - but can it be lethal?

One mistake (made by me too at first) is that most people tend to call out to their dog "Buster" - then Busteer, then BUSTEER. After a time the dog gets sick of hearing its own name and ignores it. What's wrong with a No or Yes? Works far better.

I'm still wondering why my current dog rushes in front of me into the kitchen when Toni shouts "Gill". I should be quicker to hand obviously, but then I was never a Swiss Army Recruit.


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Gillian Schuler said:


> One mistake (made by me too at first) is that most people tend to call out to their dog "Buster" - then Busteer, then BUSTEER. After a time the dog gets sick of hearing its own name and ignores it. What's wrong with a No or Yes? Works far better.


I have 3 dogs in the house. If all 3 are involved then this might work, but normally have to isolate WHO the remark is geared to. But the method of name delivery (sweet and soft vs hard and sharp) can covey the level of transgression or praise to the dog more than a No or Yes. 

of course you could be like my Mom who labels every dog as Who or What. Who do you think you are? What are you doing? The dogs always seem to know Who or What she is referring to.....


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

It might be that dogs are kenneled for the above mentioned reasoning but thats not how it works for me.

My dogs are kenneled because at the end of the day they do not get a nice soft sofa or couch to lay on when they are sold. They will go from my kennel to another kennel. My reasoning, and I think some with me think the same way, is that I do not want to give them something that will be taken away later. They will not get a sofa or couch to lay on so why let them get used to it now? They can not miss what they do not know. 

I personally believe that there is one uber rule in dogsports and training that all should use and live by.

"Don't want to deal with behaviour problems tomorrow? Than do not allow that behaviour today."

To many people make the mistake of allowing things with a pup because its cute or funny or whatever the reason might be but they forget that that pup will grow up to become a fully grown dog that will come at them at some point and shows them that exact same behaviour that looked so cute on him/her as a puppy...except it aint so damn funny now, is it? Raising a pup takes work and common sense. You have to be fair with the pup and show it what is allowed and what not. Letting things slide as a pup on the "Cute factor" isn't fair at all since you will probably have to deal with the cute behaviour at a later date and punish the dog for it which isn't very fair at all since you were the one who let the behaviour slide to begin with. I see it all to often, dogs getting a boot up the ass for mistakes the owner made when raising the pup. Do not see the pup as a pup, see it as a dog in the making, one that will end up ruining your day, every day, because you didn't use your head and let things slide, and now he has to pay the price for your stupidity.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I enjoy raising/working with puppys more then any other period of their life. That includes competition. It doesn't mean I let them be obnoxious just because they are puppies.
My two GSDs are outside 24/7 manily because of the hair but both spent the first 8-9 months in the house learning manners. Do they remember all that? You bet they do. I went to K9 Nose work class tonight for the third week with Trooper. We let him in the house while I fed Thunder and as bat $#!+ crazy as he is it was just a matter of telling him to lay down on a throw rug in the kitchen. He spent about a half hour there and we never heard a peep or even saw him leave the rug. 
It's all in the foundation work and "FOR ME AND MY DOGS" that starts the day they come home at 6 weeks.


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Robbie II aka Rampant Robbie aka Moodswing Muttley aka Randy Robbie the Food receptacle, 3 months old yesterday!

I sure hope he grows into those ears of his... Or at least starts to use them! :lol:


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

Alice Bezemer said:


> Robbie II aka Rampant Robbie aka Moodswing Muttley aka Randy Robbie the Food receptacle, 3 months old yesterday!
> 
> I sure hope he grows into those ears of his... Or at least starts to use them! :lol:


 
LOL... He looks like TROUBLE. 

Are you going to make videos of his initial training sessions? 



Thanks


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Tiago Fontes said:


> LOL... He looks like TROUBLE.
> 
> Are you going to make videos of his initial training sessions?
> 
> ...


Might make some but video's are not a priority for us, training is.  I'm sure at some point I will make some video's of his progress but thats about it.


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## Jay Quinn (Apr 1, 2012)

LMAO loving the nicknames!!

even if you don't make videos, it'd be awesome to hear what sort of exercises you have been working on, or working towards... thanks for sharing : )


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

_Might make some but video's are not a priority for us, training is._

Well spoken!


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

I haven't been able to get with the video thing either. However, I am curious about the training development for KNPV so would love to hear about any puppy foundation work and how they are developed along the way.

T


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

good videos are not easy to make; especially if you are working at home where there isn't anyone standing buy with a camera in their hand to shoot what you are doing, or if you are out by yourself one on one with the dog. i board dogs and the customers always want to see progress vids of the dog when it is away from them....really drives my wife buggy since she has to run a ballet/flamenco studio too :-(

plus it's often hard to get the handler and the dog in the shot, and without being able to see both it's not always easy to get the whole picture of what's going on

i got a GoPro and tried that but really had a hard time trying to figure out how the best way to wear it was ... still frustrating and it was all dog
- a little better on a tripod, but still a pita
- but i try and get it done, since they are paying me, and that means sometimes i have to bribe the wife //lol//
- but doing it solo is a major pita for me

- of COURSE training should be a bigger priority than film making ... that's a no brainer

- btw, i don't recall anyone posting vids of how they are raising their puppies, and i doubt Alice is looking for online help on how to raise hers either  
- most of the vids of pups are showing them chasing and hanging on to rags and then it fast forwards to the "first time on a sleeve or suit" clips

- but if anyone really wants to see that little guy growing into his ears and getting nasty, i suggest paying her ... maybe she will change her mind and adjust her priorities a bit 

- i'd be willing to do a "PPV on WDF with Alice" to see an experienced KNPV trainer raising a KNPV pup, so count me in 

- in the meantime, i'm just thankful for the free stuff we DO get on here from people who take the time to make em and post em. beats surfing youtube


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

I too appreciate the ones that are posted. I have huge respect for those who have the patience to upload them. When you are training multiple dogs and other people's dog, the video camera is always the thing you either forget or that last straw you can't deal with. Or at least that's how it goes for me. I'm one of those verbal people that if you describe it, I can visualize it but understand that some folks are more visual. It'll be fun to hear about the process of training KNPV.

T

And yes with those ears, he ought to be able to hear anything.


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

I will try and post some stuff of Robbie II in training if I ever get around to videoing him. Not sure if its going to be all that interesting tho? For the next few months it won't be anything more then some small obediance and maybe some searching and heeling thrown in there. After he is done teething we start bitework on the field but thats not really all that interesting either... Beginning bitework is nothing more then putting the dog on the bite over and over until he knows his place and then slowly building it out to distance which increases over time. We will work on the man and box revier in small increments, having him search for both and bark, also increasing distance as he improves. 

I think the easiest way to explain what his training will look like is this. He learns each exercise step by step until he understands the general idea and then we increase distance and give him space to work more individualy as time progresses. We always work short the most, to secure his behaviour and proof his exercise, but also to be able to support the dog, give him confidence in his own ability and to let him know he is doing a good job. He hardly ever goes of leash... There are days that he will be trained of leash but they are few and far between. I always stick to working short distances with the dog once he knows the exercise. Why always use distance? If he knows the exercise there is no need to keep doing long work over and over, stick to close by and reward, show the dog its doing the right thing! Long work is for once ever 3 or 4 weeks depending on what he shows, short work is for pretty much most training sessions. Always leashed or on a line. I have about 15 different lines that we use for his training. He doesn't wear a collar after he has learnt the exercises but a very thing line around his neck. I use lines from 5 mm down to 1 mm thickness just to make sure that the I can always control the dog. I use lines ranging from 1 ft to 50 ft and even more! 


Anyways... to make a boring long story short, I will try and post some vids if I get time to do so... Can't promise it will be interesting tho. :lol:


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Not boring at all and sounds a LOT like my training and how Shane Carter discusses working with distance concepts in his protection training. If they thoroughly have it up close, distance isn't an issue. Too often we start trying to do distance before we've trained it up close and it falls apart. Ditto, regarding the use of lines. I'm assuming when you say "put him on the bite," you mean having him bite the desired part on the suit and hold? Most of the KNPV puppy vids I've seen, it seems that the dog genetically wants to fill his mouth and bite and thats not something you need to put there. Can you explain how you see it. Thanks for sharing.


T


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Not boring at all and sounds a LOT like my training and how Shane Carter discusses working with distance concepts in his protection training. If they thoroughly have it up close, distance isn't an issue. Too often we start trying to do distance before we've trained it up close and it falls apart. Ditto, regarding the use of lines. I'm assuming when you say "put him on the bite," you mean having him bite the desired part on the suit and hold? Most of the KNPV puppy vids I've seen, it seems that the dog genetically wants to fill his mouth and bite and thats not something you need to put there. Can you explain how you see it. Thanks for sharing.
> 
> 
> T


For me put on the bite is grabbing the skin on the sides of his neck and having the decoy walk in with his arm slightly extended as I push him on the bite at the spot where I want him. Most of my dogs had a natural deep bite but I had one that didn't and I would help him with his bite by pushing him into the bite and then standing behind the decoy, leash over his arm and giving small tugs on the line to entice him to dig in. Not every dog has a filling bite, some are just front teeth and I work on that to improve it to a filling bite. Most front teeth are pullers, they use their legs to place against the decoy in order to pull, which often pulls them off the bite, annoys the decoy to no end, and ruins a good biting suit in the process. I don't allow my dogs to use their front legs tho. I keep pushing them away and down so he learns to let them hang there instead of using them to push against the decoy. 

Hope that explains it a bit?


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Alice Bezemer said:


> For me put on the bite is grabbing the skin on the sides of his neck and having the decoy walk in with his arm slightly extended as I push him on the bite at the spot where I want him. Most of my dogs had a natural deep bite but I had one that didn't and I would help him with his bite by pushing him into the bite and then standing behind the decoy, leash over his arm and giving small tugs on the line to entice him to dig in. Not every dog has a filling bite, some are just front teeth and I work on that to improve it to a filling bite. Most front teeth are pullers, they use their legs to place against the decoy in order to pull, which often pulls them off the bite, annoys the decoy to no end, and ruins a good biting suit in the process. I don't allow my dogs to use their front legs tho. I keep pushing them away and down so he learns to let them hang there instead of using them to push against the decoy.
> 
> Hope that explains it a bit?


It does--tremendously. Thanks.

T


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## Jay Quinn (Apr 1, 2012)

thanks for sharing Alice! it's all handy information, videos or not!!


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## Colin Chin (Sep 20, 2006)

Hi Alice,
How do you reward your dog/pup for doing the right thing ? Thanks.


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## Colin Chin (Sep 20, 2006)

Nice explanation, Alice, appreciate you.


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## Colin Chin (Sep 20, 2006)

Alice,
How do you make him start barking while standing on the box ?


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Colin Chin said:


> Hi Alice,
> How do you reward your dog/pup for doing the right thing ? Thanks.


I'm his reward. Sounds funny I guess but I stay in close contact with him and pet him as I tell him what a good lad he is for doing as told. Then we remove ourselves from the training exercise about 75 ft by heeling and I give him the "Go free" command. He pretty much gets to do what he wants at that point. Sniff the grass, jump up at me, make summersaults if he wants to, this is his moment to just unload untill I load him up for the next exercise with the "Place" command. He mostly just bounces around the place and runs circles around me and barks like an idiot, ready to start the next exercise. We have already started some small training exercises on the field with him since he showed he is ready for it and is having a lot of fun doing it. Right now he does the bark on the box, small article search with larger articles and heeling, and the key retrieve. As far as bitework goes, he bites the puppysleeve and pretty much anything you place infront of him with a nice deep digging bite. For now we will not focus on biting as he already showed that he will bite any and everything you put infront of him. Focus is mainly on OB, bitework can wait untill his adult teeth have come in.



Colin Chin said:


> Alice,
> How do you make him start barking while standing on the box ?


Thats quite easy. I teach him to bark on command and then use that when he stands on the box to get him to bark. I get him to bark 5 or 6 times and take him away from the box about 5 mtrs and praise and reward profusely to show him its a job well done and then return him to the box for another 5 or 6 barks. Repeat that 2 or at most 3 times per session, increasing the amount of barks as we go along. We never start out with long sessions. Keep it short and sweet to make sure we keep the dogs attention and it stays fun and interesting for him. Build out over time to full exercise. As soon as he barks on the box we start him on guarding the box. He comes of the box when on the bark then we put him back on top of it with the "Get on" command and reward from a small distance if he gets on top. Verbal praise is very important to teach a dog, its the best tool you have with your dog when working at short or longers distances. As soon as the dog shows that he understands the concept of guarding and barking on the box we take a long line of about 10 to 15 yards and try to pull him of the box during his exercise, if he does come off we immediately send him back with a firm NO, GET ON! He gets back on the box and the verbal praise rewards him again. You would be amazed at how quick a dog picks up on staying on the box and guarding it. Robbie already guards the box and if we really tried to we could pull him off because he is still small but he stands there, hanging back against the pull, stretching all 4's to make sure he stays on that box. Its quite funny to see such a small pup already fully guarding the box. Snarling at us for trying to pull him off :lol:


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## Colin Chin (Sep 20, 2006)

Alice Bezemer said:


> I'm his reward. Sounds funny I guess but I stay in close contact with him and pet him as I tell him what a good lad he is for doing as told. Then we remove ourselves from the training exercise about 75 ft by heeling and I give him the "Go free" command. He pretty much gets to do what he wants at that point. Sniff the grass, jump up at me, make summersaults if he wants to, this is his moment to just unload untill I load him up for the next exercise with the "Place" command. He mostly just bounces around the place and runs circles around me and barks like an idiot, ready to start the next exercise. We have already started some small training exercises on the field with him since he showed he is ready for it and is having a lot of fun doing it. Right now he does the bark on the box, small article search with larger articles and heeling, and the key retrieve. As far as bitework goes, he bites the puppysleeve and pretty much anything you place infront of him with a nice deep digging bite. For now we will not focus on biting as he already showed that he will bite any and everything you put infront of him. Focus is mainly on OB, bitework can wait untill his adult teeth have come in.
> 
> 
> 
> Thats quite easy. I teach him to bark on command and then use that when he stands on the box to get him to bark. I get him to bark 5 or 6 times and take him away from the box about 5 mtrs and praise and reward profusely to show him its a job well done and then return him to the box for another 5 or 6 barks. Repeat that 2 or at most 3 times per session, increasing the amount of barks as we go along. We never start out with long sessions. Keep it short and sweet to make sure we keep the dogs attention and it stays fun and interesting for him. Build out over time to full exercise. As soon as he barks on the box we start him on guarding the box. He comes of the box when on the bark then we put him back on top of it with the "Get on" command and reward from a small distance if he gets on top. Verbal praise is very important to teach a dog, its the best tool you have with your dog when working at short or longers distances. As soon as the dog shows that he understands the concept of guarding and barking on the box we take a long line of about 10 to 15 yards and try to pull him of the box during his exercise, if he does come off we immediately send him back with a firm NO, GET ON! He gets back on the box and the verbal praise rewards him again. You would be amazed at how quick a dog picks up on staying on the box and guarding it. Robbie already guards the box and if we really tried to we could pull him off because he is still small but he stands there, hanging back against the pull, stretching all 4's to make sure he stays on that box. Its quite funny to see such a small pup already fully guarding the box. Snarling at us for trying to pull him off :lol:


Thank you so much, Alice.


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Was a nice day today so made some pictures of Robbie II :mrgreen: He will be 14 weeks next monday.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

still looks like trouble to me


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

Alice are Dutch training methods different then the other biting dog sports? Less ball reward? Less focus on prey drive?


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Ben Thompson said:


> Alice are Dutch training methods different then the other biting dog sports? Less ball reward? Less focus on prey drive?


Thats not an easy question to answer.... I have no idea how other sports train or what they focus on for their sports so I can't really answer that question. 

As for less ball reward... I am not a fan of rewarding with a ball to begin with. If I am going to reward with anything apart from myself then it would be a chewtoy or a bite roll. 

Not sure why you think less focus on prey drive tho? 

For myself I would say that the whole drive thing that I see people talk about is highly overrated. It annoys and irritates me to no end when I see mentions of dogs not having ball drive so therefor they must be of lesser quality or of no use at all. All people are looking for is dogs with high drives in anything and everything they do and therefor mostly discarding the other dogs with the excuse "Not enough drive" 

A dog that doesn't perform as expected mostly gets labelled as not enough drive or what you will when in fact most of the owners should look at themselves and try and find what they did wrong for the dog to display this socalled "Low drive/Not enough drive."

I will say this in terms of dutch training, and I am speaking for myself only, not the entire dutch nation of dogtrainers... I do not go around asking my dog to do things for me, I do not wait him out in order to get his compliance, I do not think up elaborate ways to get the dog to do what I want him to do. I teach him the exercise and I expect compliance from him without backtalk. He does not get options to wiggle out of doing as told. I teach my dogs theor exercises in a way that works best for each individual dog, every different dog needs a different treatment or way of training, having said that, once they know the exercise there is no room for non compliance. I think in that way my training differs from the training elsewere... What I see on this forum is that most training is based on "asking" the dog to work which in my eyes leaves the dog free to make choices for himself, as where I tell the dog what to do, asking doesn't come in to it. I say, he does, non compliance will have consequences.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Alice Bezemer said:


> Thats not an easy question to answer.... I have no idea how other sports train or what they focus on for their sports so I can't really answer that question.
> 
> As for less ball reward... I am not a fan of rewarding with a ball to begin with. If I am going to reward with anything apart from myself then it would be a chewtoy or a bite roll.
> 
> ...


+ 1

As usual Alice makes a lot of sense with her posts.
I agree that we get pretty silly with all the drive theory, Play, prey, ball, tug, fight, etc. etc. I once read that most Dutch only believe in the "because I said so drive" ? 
I have to start telling and not asking with all my dogs. That and get my timing better. Correction for non compliance and better timing with rewards when they do it right. Easier said then done.
When I finally get those lotto numbers I'm moving to Europe and camping out on Alice's front door for a month or so


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

Alice Bezemer said:


> Thats not an easy question to answer.... I have no idea how other sports train or what they focus on for their sports so I can't really answer that question.
> 
> As for less ball reward... I am not a fan of rewarding with a ball to begin with. If I am going to reward with anything apart from myself then it would be a chewtoy or a bite roll.
> 
> ...


 I have seen dogs that are not associated with any sport and have not much prey drive just alot of natural aggression doing bite work /protection work. Thats why I was wondering about the prey drive with KNPV... I know they must have some prey drive I thought maybe it wasn't emphasised as much I didn't know. 

There is at least one person on this forum that uses no toy rewards for their training.
I know with a lot of detection dogs they want high ball or toy drive for searching.


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Thomas Barriano said:


> + 1
> 
> As usual Alice makes a lot of sense with her posts.
> I agree that we get pretty silly with all the drive theory, Play, prey, ball, tug, fight, etc. etc. I once read that most Dutch only believe in the "because I said so drive" ?
> ...


No need to stay in the yard, will let you in the house 

You are right tho, timing is everything and its easier said then done. I have always been a firm believer that correction and reward are the best way to train a dog. It leaves nothing to the imagination of the dog, there is no room for him to ferret out other ways then the way I want him to work. He knows what is expected and he knows his place in the grand scheme of things.... It leaves no room for any misscommunication between handler and dog since the dog quickly learns that he has no say whatsoever. If you do not give a dog grey areas to discover you will never have to deal with problems of the dog exploring outside the set boundries. Maybe I am just a simpleton but I feel that by giving the dog options you are making life infinately more harder for him then when you set the rules in stone. It cuts down on corrections as well.


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Ben Thompson said:


> I have seen dogs that are not associated with any sport and have not much prey drive just alot of natural aggression doing bite work /protection work. Thats why I was wondering about the prey drive with KNPV... I know they must have some prey drive I thought maybe it wasn't emphasised as much I didn't know.
> 
> There is at least one person on this forum that uses no toy rewards for their training.
> I know with a lot of detection dogs they want high ball or toy drive for searching.


I don't really emphasize on prey drive to be honest. A good dog is a good dog and doesn't always have prey drive to begin with. Doesn't mean it can't be built or wont devellop over time. All the mentions of various sorts of drive are things that can be worked on and that can be trained or taught to a dog. I have always felt that there is way to much emphasis on any sort of drive and that people should look deeper then just drive only... They might be discarding a great dog simply because in their opinion it lacked drive when in fact with some effort this drive was quite easy to build.

Some dogs are natural biters, some are not, so we teach them to bite, some are natural barkers, some are not... we teach them to bark.. Just because it doesn't come naturally doesnt mean it can not be taught! That is the entire point I am trying to make in most of my posts on this forum.

At times I sit at the club after a training and I listen to the oldtimers talking about the 50's 60's and 70's and there is always a world of information to be gathered in these moments. They tell about how dogs were not bred specifically for the sports in the early years, how they went to a farmer who had a litter of GSD's and how they grabbed a pup and worked it and how it ended up in LE or as a guard dog.... Drive didn't even figure into the maths back then, they just picked a pup, took it to the field, looked what the pup had to give, and worked it! One thing always stood out in those conversations tho. It wasn't as much the dog as it was the person standing next to it holding its leash. Back then people didn't think in bloodlines and genetics, they thought in dogs and how to work them, they didn't make things harder then they needed to be and they did not end up with poorly trained or useless soft dogs. They simply worked with what they had... and it worked, had it not worked the KNPV would not be where it is today...

I have had dogs with an overload of drive and I have had dogs that would sleep away most of their trainings and would only be attentive when push came to shove.. Let me let you in on a little secret, both versions worked just as well, both versions were just as reliable and both versions stood there when needed... only difference between the two is, one is annoying as **** to have in a kennel because it can't stop bouncing around all damn day, the other you need to remind yourself you have in the kennel or you will forget to feed him :lol:

The bottom line for me is this... As long as I tell whatever dog I am training to do something and he does it without hesitation and with joy and gusto I am satisfied that that is a good dog. Genetics, bloodlines, balldrive, prey drive and whatever else people want to throw in the mix mean nothing at all in the wrong hands and with the wrong training....


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Joby Becker said:


> still looks like trouble to me


 You have no idea how right you are! :lol:


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Alice Bezemer;494537
I have had dogs with an overload of drive and I have had dogs that would sleep away most of their trainings and would only be attentive when push came to shove.. Let me let you in on a little secret said:


> A lot of truth here. In the quest for crazy prey drive defining the dog, I think other important aspects of the dog's character are often not even considered. Now of course, I think there is a reconsideration of whether over the top prey is really what they want. More and more I think there is more hyper-reactivity [over reactive nervous systems] in the dogs instead of true drive.
> 
> T


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## Craig Snyder (May 7, 2012)

Wow.. I love several previous posts. While I understand the desire for high prey drives I believe it's swung too far. I've seen OCD SAR dogs that are so focused on balls and so hyper, I know there is no way many of these dogs can complete a 4 hour field task. But they can be easy to train because of their ball drive. I've now had two long time FEMA handlers admit to me in confidence that many of the FEMA dogs are wiped after 30 minute tasks.

I also agree with the concept that Alice put up that there is no one "right" way to train a dog. Every dog is different and every breed has their own tendencies. Failure of the dog is often failure of the handler to learn the methods required for their particular dog. It's not easy though. 

Craig


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

many roads to success ...

i'll chime in too and say that giving a dog an option and being ready to reward correct behavior, rather than correct until til compliance, is also an excellent way to train, and IMO it is NOT "asking" a dog to do what you want it to do. i would also add that standing off and encouraging a dog to bark and stay on a box, might also be interpreted as "asking" the dog to do something you want it to do 

relying mostly on physical compulsion is certainly a method that has worked ... for many years
i'm not knocking it and never have, but i have said before that i think the main benefit to training that way is that it often gets results faster.
but with that said, the more "modern" methods that use a lot less physical compulsion and apply it later in the training stages certainly work too. to look down on that would be narrow minded imo

i think what Alice might be referring to as "asking", is when you take too long to show the dog that it is NOT doing what you want and give it too much extra time to offer other behaviors, get more hyped, spin around in circles, and then get OVERly rewarded for some very small progress ... that is what i call feeding the drive rather than training a behavior
- a dog that is highly driven to perform for their handler IS a good thing, as long as the handler can keep the dog balanced and teach the off switch to KEEP it balanced
- that is where i think the timing factor becomes important

i saw a good Cesar TV show one time that illustrated this exact point ... some ATF handlers were getting frustrated because they could not control their "high drive" over the top "ball driven" EDD's when they were kenneled or in a pack setting ... all it took was some "off switch" training to show the dogs that bouncing off the walls 24/7 was NOT desired behavior, and it didn't appear to kill any work ethic on the part of the dogs 
- when all you do is dangle a ball it is much harder to get that balance

and i also feel that if a dog's job will be out on a street catching scumbags, it needs training that puts a lot more physical pressure on a dog than a family pet or sport dog to nurture the desire to fight and win the fight. so when you want to bring out aggression in the dog, you definitely need to show the dog that any redirected aggression on the handler will never be tolerated, and this needs to be taught at an early age 

probably not a good explanation, but that's how i feel


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

Alice Bezemer said:


> I don't really emphasize on prey drive to be honest. A good dog is a good dog and doesn't always have prey drive to begin with. Doesn't mean it can't be built or wont devellop over time. All the mentions of various sorts of drive are things that can be worked on and that can be trained or taught to a dog. I have always felt that there is way to much emphasis on any sort of drive and that people should look deeper then just drive only... They might be discarding a great dog simply because in their opinion it lacked drive when in fact with some effort this drive was quite easy to build.
> 
> Some dogs are natural biters, some are not, so we teach them to bite, some are natural barkers, some are not... we teach them to bark.. Just because it doesn't come naturally doesnt mean it can not be taught! That is the entire point I am trying to make in most of my posts on this forum.
> 
> ...


I think the KNPV has at least historically tried to maintain a certain standard to keep weak animals from passing. So a dog could have great papers and pass or be a farm bred DS and pass...if he is good.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Alice said
"The bottom line for me is this... As long as I tell whatever dog I am training to do something and he does it without hesitation and with joy and gusto I am satisfied that that is a good dog. Genetics, bloodlines, balldrive, prey drive and whatever else people want to throw in the mix mean nothing at all in the wrong hands and with the wrong training...."



I agree 100% with this but I think there are misconceptions about "asking" a dog to do something. I want the dog to understand what I want before I use physical pressure. Teach them to WANT to do as I ask/tell them. I have trained one of my present dogs to a number of titles with only reward based training. No physical corrections. I wanted to see how far I could take it and I was successful. SchIII, CDX, HT, SAR, TT, CGC.
I've also trained dogs to a high level of obedience in AKC with "old school" correction training. I think they both have a place in training.
I started with the no corrections about 10 yrs ago. First with an Australian Shepherd and now with my two GSDs. It works but that doesn't mean I wont use whatever method I know in order to get what I want. If they don't do as I ask/tell them then it's up to me to figure out what "*I*" did wrong. I don't believe a dog will refuse out of stubornness or give us the finger, or decide not to do something on a given day or is just stupid. What did "*I*" do wrong to create that problem at the moment? How can "*I*" communicate better what I want?
Either way, I believe it's more about the individual's connection with the dog. Call it leadership, a connection, being top dog, clear communication or whatever. If a person doesn't have that with their dogs nothing will get done. I want that before any real "training" starts and that begins at home, not a training field.
I don't think any particular method of training will develop that. That's between you and the dog.


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

How do you call a dog off a deer with only posiitive training?


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Ben Thompson said:


> How do you call a dog off a deer with only posiitive training?



Start in drive marker training when they are puppies.

T


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

re: "How do you call a dog off a deer with only posiitive training?"

simple ... train a rock solid recall, which it should start learning the day you first meet your dog or pup .... imo

most dogs weren't born to chase deer ... they were trained and conditioned to do it from owners who skipped a few important steps in their recall training sessions :
... called PROOFING ](*,)

personally i would feel bad if a deer was more important than me, and just another example of a poor "bond" .... imo of course


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

on second thought, i shouldn't have popped off that reply since it probably has little to do with Robbie and Alice


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Ben Thompson said:


> How do you call a dog off a deer with only posiitive training?



What T and Rick said. 
I've called both my GSDs off of Deer and my hunt terriers off of rabbits when they were six inches off a bunny's ass.
It's no different then proofing off any high level distractions. They simply have to be exposed to what your proofing against in small increments and it all starts with puppies. Deer and bunnies are a way of life where I run my dogs so it wasn't terribly difficult.
The hardest thing I had trouble with was when I started herding with my GSD. T was my teacher and she said trust my dog and his marker training. She did.
Sheep were more of a distraction then ANY deer or helper my Sch III GSD ever saw but T trusted my dog and she said to work on my tug for reward away from the sheep then in a field next to them and so forth and it worked. 
Did the tug have a higher value then the sheep? Doubtful but all the imprinting with markers and tug reward paid off. Call it muscle memory, programed response, whatever but it worked. 
I've never had a dog refuse a recall, ever. That goes for before and after I started marker training about ten yrs ago.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> What T and Rick said.
> I've called both my GSDs off of Deer and my hunt terriers off of rabbits when they were six inches off a bunny's ass.
> It's no different then proofing off any high level distractions. They simply have to be exposed to what your proofing against in small increments and it all starts with puppies. Deer and bunnies are a way of life where I run my dogs so it wasn't terribly difficult.
> The hardest thing I had trouble with was when I started herding with my GSD. T was my teacher and she said trust my dog and his marker training. She did.
> ...


The more I work with marker training, the more I think the handler's relationship with the dog plays a role in its success. Working for Bob for a reward has the highest value for Thunder. Its hard to explain but I don't think he's working for the tug interaction--its the system combined with the relationship. Doing in drive work off stock put Bob in his head in drive, so on stock, it was the same. You can test the relationship aspect. Dog has access to the stock on one side of the arena and his handler is on the other side. This is a mature marker trained dog that isn't the least bit handler sensitive or dependent, to the contrary. Is he really interested in working stock without his handler? No. The herding dynamic is based on a pack relationship. 


T


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

Bob Scott said:


> What T and Rick said.
> I've called both my GSDs off of Deer and my hunt terriers off of rabbits when they were six inches off a bunny's ass.
> It's no different then proofing off any high level distractions. They simply have to be exposed to what your proofing against in small increments and it all starts with puppies. Deer and bunnies are a way of life where I run my dogs so it wasn't terribly difficult.
> The hardest thing I had trouble with was when I started herding with my GSD. T was my teacher and she said trust my dog and his marker training. She did.
> ...


 I don't think I would train a dog with that system but its interesting.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

Ben....i don't know if you have any venomous snakes in your area but we do...my house dog used to be VERY "snake driven" and would not only kill them but eat them ... took awhile because i wanted to try it without using an Ecollar, but he won't go after any snake anymore and i'm sure he never knew which ones were edible and delicious either 
.... lizards are still snacks tho; i let him have all he wants


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

_At times I sit at the club after a training and I listen to the oldtimers talking about the 50's 60's and 70's and there is always a world of information to be gathered in these moments. They tell about how dogs were not bred specifically for the sports in the early years, how they went to a farmer who had a litter of GSD's and how they grabbed a pup and worked it and how it ended up in LE or as a guard dog.... Drive didn't even figure into the maths back then, they just picked a pup, took it to the field, looked what the pup had to give, and worked it! One thing always stood out in those conversations tho. It wasn't as much the dog as it was the person standing next to it holding its leash. Back then people didn't think in bloodlines and genetics, they thought in dogs and how to work them, they didn't make things harder then they needed to be and they did not end up with poorly trained or useless soft dogs. They simply worked with what they had... and it worked, had it not worked the KNPV would not be where it is today..._

I used to listen to this too. Very valuable information.


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

rick smith said:


> Ben....i don't know if you have any venomous snakes in your area but we do...my house dog used to be VERY "snake driven" and would not only kill them but eat them ... took awhile because i wanted to try it without using an Ecollar, but he won't go after any snake anymore and i'm sure he never knew which ones were edible and delicious either
> .... lizards are still snacks tho; i let him have all he wants


I don't allow him to chase any animals its a distraction from his real job..protection. I have pet snakes so yeah he cannot touch them. I could steer him in that direction where he bites every animal that moves but he is not a hunting dog thats how I see it.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Ben Thompson said:


> I don't think I would train a dog with that system but its interesting.



I respect that statement. 
To many people today still insist that there way is the only way and everyone that doesn't use what they use is wrong. If your happy with the methods you use the more power to you but to many diss another's methods and that's not what training should be about. 
I trained my first dog with a book when I was 12 (1957) and have learned a number of different methods since. I can honestly say there are many things I put together from the different "methods" but, FOR ME, markers will be the foundation of all of it. What I do works for me and my dogs!


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## Haz Othman (Mar 25, 2013)

Alice it sounds like you correct him when he gets out of line, which from the look of him must be a lot..lol. What type of corrections do you employ? Also, do you tug a lot with him? Is he allowed to possess the tug or is he only allowed to access it through you?


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

Bob Scott said:


> I respect that statement.
> To many people today still insist that there way is the only way and everyone that doesn't use what they use is wrong. If your happy with the methods you use the more power to you but to many diss another's methods and that's not what training should be about.
> I trained my first dog with a book when I was 12 (1957) and have learned a number of different methods since. I can honestly say there are many things I put together from the different "methods" but, FOR ME, markers will be the foundation of all of it. What I do works for me and my dogs!


I've always been working with a bunch of different trainers. I don't know of anyone who uses only positive training around here except in competition nose work. I usually pay a trainer to help me train the dog. I'm in training too not just the dog. Each trainer I worked with was a little different. All had methods that would work. I did use a leerburg video on how to train a dog to wear a muzzle. Except I did not use a clicker since I don't even own one. I used verbal cues with food reward got the exact same result. 

I once asked a trainer I was just starting out with if we would be using a clicker she screamed out in a loud german accent "NO! He is not a fish!"


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Ben Thompson said:


> I've always been working with a bunch of different trainers. I don't know of anyone who uses only positive training around here except in competition nose work. I usually pay a trainer to help me train the dog. I'm in training too not just the dog. Each trainer I worked with was a little different. All had methods that would work. I did use a leerburg video on how to train a dog to wear a muzzle. Except I did not use a clicker since I don't even own one. I used verbal cues with food reward got the exact same result.
> 
> I once asked a trainer I was just starting out with if we would be using a clicker she screamed out in a loud german accent "NO! He is not a fish!"


Check out one of Stefan's seminars and you can see some really snazzy clicker training.

T


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Bob Scott said:


> I respect that statement.
> To many people today still insist that there way is the only way and everyone that doesn't use what they use is wrong. If your happy with the methods you use the more power to you but to many diss another's methods and that's not what training should be about.
> I trained my first dog with a book when I was 12 (1957) and have learned a number of different methods since. I can honestly say there are many things I put together from the different "methods" but, FOR ME, markers will be the foundation of all of it. What I do works for me and my dogs!


There are many roads that lead to Rome...


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Haz Othman said:


> Alice it sounds like you correct him when he gets out of line, which from the look of him must be a lot..lol. What type of corrections do you employ? Also, do you tug a lot with him? Is he allowed to possess the tug or is he only allowed to access it through you?


I employ whatever correction is needed, it all depends on what is happening.  Nope, hardly ever tug with him. He gets to play tug on the field with the decoy, he lets go, he loses the tug, he hold on, he wins, the tug is his to have and run away with.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

re: "I once asked a trainer I was just starting out with if we would be using a clicker she screamed out in a loud german accent "NO! He is not a fish!"
....rotflmao

your trainer is showing her ignorance of "fish" ... and clickers ... hope she was better with dogs 

clickers are a PITA but they are infinitely more consistent and accurate than any trainer's voice walking on the planet; regardless of what language they speak and regardless of what species you are working with 

my .05


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

rick smith said:


> re: "I once asked a trainer I was just starting out with if we would be using a clicker she screamed out in a loud german accent "NO! He is not a fish!"
> ....rotflmao
> 
> your trainer is showing her ignorance of "fish" ... and clickers ... hope she was better with dogs
> ...


Hahhahaha


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

The use of clicker/marker training to train/solidify behaviors does not make the training "positive only." Some dogs can be positive only dogs and some not. I don't use collars but my dogs certainly aren't positive only trained. They have a "because I say so button" and they know what "no" means. Ultimately, this is always to stop some undesired behavior, not to teach a desired one. I've trained others where "no" wasn't even in their vocabulary, with me. Each dog is an individual. 

T


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## Haz Othman (Mar 25, 2013)

Alice Bezemer said:


> I employ whatever correction is needed, it all depends on what is happening.  Nope, hardly ever tug with him. He gets to play tug on the field with the decoy, he lets go, he loses the tug, he hold on, he wins, the tug is his to have and run away with.


 
Thanks for the reply. Sounds delightfully simple..makes me wonder if we overcomplicate things at time?


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Haz Othman said:


> Thanks for the reply. Sounds delightfully simple..makes me wonder if we overcomplicate things at time?


I don't think its as much overcomplicate as it is overthinking..... A lot of problems have extremely simple solutions but people start thinking about different sides of the problem and come up with more then one solution, then they don't stick with that solution long enough to see if it actually works and quickly go back to thinking again to come up with more ideas as to how they can fix a problem that could have probably been fixed with an easy solution to begin with. 

I catagorize trainers/handlers in 2 groups.

1. Hands on trainers/handlers like myself who look at a problem as it arises and deal with it in the moment without overthinking it to much.

2. Preemptive trainers/handlers that see all sorts of problems in the future already and that are training a dog hoping to prevent future problems from arising. 

The problem with being trainer/handler nr2 is that you can not train a dog preemptively. You can not train for future problems or mistakes that it MIGHT make since it might NOT make those mistakes at all to begin with but your preemptive training will switch on a light in a dog that was better left off to begin with.

Never overthink when training a dog, keep it simple and to the point, black and white. There is no need to make it harder on yourself and on your dog. 

Too many people try to get inside the dogs head, disecting every move it makes and why he makes it, everything has a reason and they try and get into this reason, they start applying human traits and ideas as to why a dog does this or that and forget what they were actually doing to begin with. A dog does not overthink, it does not reason or rhyme, it does not elaborate.... It does what it does and either gets success or failure, it doesn't lose a nights sleep over this success or failure, it just moves on.... 

To much humane and humanized thinking in the dogtraining world....

Am going to state something that many will disagree with. A dog is loyal to the hand that feeds. Sure he might love his owner, he might love his trainer/handler, he will work for them, play with them, have fun time and cuddles with them but the simple fact is that the dog will be loyal to anyone that fills his bowl up every day. I am sure that some will yell "My dog would kill me for me!" And I am sure that that dog might do so but put it someone elses hands and have it fed and loved and cared for in the same way as you did and it will kill for them as well.... A dog is a loyal companion who in his heart, as loving as it might be, is an opportunist and rightfully so. Its not a bad reflection on the dog that he is like this, its his nature.


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## Marcel Winter (Mar 29, 2013)

Like your posts Alice keep them coming !

Heel goed en duidelijk omschreven TOP !


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Alice Bezemer said:


> I employ whatever correction is needed, it all depends on what is happening.  Nope, hardly ever tug with him. He gets to play tug on the field with the decoy, he lets go, he loses the tug, he hold on, he wins, the tug is his to have and run away with.


My pup was a wimp on tugging with me but brought to a helper, he bit on a young dog sleeve so hard that the helper had to change it for an adult sleeve.

I learned that tugging with one's own dog was fun but useless.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Gillian Schuler said:


> I learned that tugging with one's own dog was fun but useless.


It depends on the dog. My dogs are more excited by a decoy but there is a lot of stuff I can teach at a lower drive level with a tug/wedge


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Thomas Barriano said:


> It depends on the dog. My dogs are more excited by a decoy but there is a lot of stuff I can teach at a lower drive level with a tug/wedge


Yes, you can each the out but you can teach the out with a football or ball - maybe this has greater value for the dog. The out on the handler is something else?


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

i certainly agree all dogs are opportunists ... they pretty much have to be

as far as different types of trainers, i also have my own opinions on that subject and i'm also sure lots of people will disagree with my opinion too 
first, i believe everyone who has a dog is a trainer of their dog even tho they might get assistance or advice from other people. that is the FIRST point i make whenever i meet someone i might work with....too many people think they aren't "trainers", but their dog will always reflect what they have been taught (or ignored) by their owner
next, i think there are two types of trainers. those who have a system and a plan that they apply consistently and those who don't. i also think the system should apply to any dog and any breed, regardless of what they want to do with their dog

obviously there are many systems and they should all be simple in terms of philosophy and execution, but the degree they are successful can vary a huge amount based on a huge number of variables. iow, it might be black and white, but it isn't always easy. i also think you DO have to get into the dogs head, or at least have a pretty good idea what's going on in its head. and that shouldn't require a lot of thought since our brain is a whole lot bigger than theirs  we often rely too much on language; dogs don't

many owners/handlers/trainers certainly "overhumanaize", but sometimes that doesn't have to involve a lot of complicated human thought and trying to act like they are some type of canine shrink. a simple example is a common misconception that their dog's bad behavior is because their dog is being "protective"  for me, this would be a perfect example of someone who probably has no idea what is really going on in their dog's head. 

this thread has certainly gone beyond puppy raising, but it's getting more interesting, imo


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Alice Bezemer said:


> I don't think its as much overcomplicate as it is overthinking..... A lot of problems have extremely simple solutions but people start thinking about different sides of the problem and come up with more then one solution, then they don't stick with that solution long enough to see if it actually works and quickly go back to thinking again to come up with more ideas as to how they can fix a problem that could have probably been fixed with an easy solution to begin with.
> 
> I catagorize trainers/handlers in 2 groups.
> 
> ...


Occams razor.........


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> The use of clicker/marker training to train/solidify behaviors does not make the training "positive only." Some dogs can be positive only dogs and some not. I don't use collars but my dogs certainly aren't positive only trained. They have a "because I say so button" and they know what "no" means. Ultimately, this is always to stop some undesired behavior, not to teach a desired one. I've trained others where "no" wasn't even in their vocabulary, with me. Each dog is an individual.
> 
> T


Why do you personally feel the need to use a clicker? I can just spit out a word like "yes" then food reward. Where is the advantage to the clicker? Isn't it just circular reasoning to say because this trainer or that trainer does it?


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Ben Thompson said:


> Why do you personally feel the need to use a clicker? I can just spit out a word like "yes" then food reward. Where is the advantage to the clicker? Isn't it just circular reasoning to say because this trainer or that trainer does it?



I personally rarely use a clicker but use a verbal marker myself.
The theory is, the clicker is neutral and consistent and repeatable. There is no tone or inflection or pitch or volume. It's always the same.


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## Haz Othman (Mar 25, 2013)

There does seem to be this pervasive fear that any kind of aversive will either ruin your dogs relationship with you, kill drive or make the dog turn on you. I know i ran into this when I started dealing with my first working pup and figuring out how to bring her up and train her. I think this perception leads to a lot of hesitation when it comes to training and upbringing.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Haz Othman said:


> There does seem to be this pervasive fear that any kind of aversive will either ruin your dogs relationship with you, kill drive or make the dog turn on you. I know i ran into this when I started dealing with my first working pup and figuring out how to bring her up and train her. I think this perception leads to a lot of hesitation when it comes to training and upbringing.


Some aversive techniques bring out more drive. not to harp on drive lol


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Ben Thompson said:


> Why do you personally feel the need to use a clicker? I can just spit out a word like "yes" then food reward. Where is the advantage to the clicker? Isn't it just circular reasoning to say because this trainer or that trainer does it?


Notice I type "clicker/marker." My dogs are trained to my verbal marker "yes." Depending on the dog/situation, I might use a clicker. Several years ago I discovered that my verbal marker dogs worked flatter when I switched to a clicker. I have a really high pitched upbeat "yes," and that makes a difference to them. I load my yes with the dog the same way I load my clicker. As for your circular reasoning, I don't do anything because this trainer or that trainer does it even though I may learn things from other trainers and incorporate them into my training. Its not who it is but what they are doing and the result with the dog that attracts.

T


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Notice I type "clicker/marker." My dogs are trained to my verbal marker "yes." Depending on the dog/situation, I might use a clicker. Several years ago I discovered that my verbal marker dogs worked flatter when I switched to a clicker. I have a really high pitched upbeat "yes," and that makes a difference to them. I load my yes with the dog the same way I load my clicker. As for your circular reasoning, I don't do anything because this trainer or that trainer does it even though I may learn things from other trainers and incorporate them into my training. Its not who it is but what they are doing and the result with the dog that attracts.
> 
> T


 I was able to use the yes command and get good results with basic obedience phase of training...What would happen if these people take their dogs somewhere and forgot to bring the clicker. I just would never want to rely on that. Its just one more damn thing I gotta remember to pack.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Ben Thompson said:


> I was able to use the yes command and get good results with basic obedience phase of training...What would happen if these people take their dogs somewhere and forgot to bring the clicker. I just would never want to rely on that. Its just one more damn thing I gotta remember to pack.


Its personal preference. I keep a couple in my kitchen and a couple in my car. Actually from the point of view of a trainer who trains other people and their dogs, I really think they are better for several different reasons and can understand why the clicker was used in the seminar that I recently attended. 

T


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

people always knock clickers....

we always hear the negs...
-pita
-pussified
-positive only
-prevents you from using all hands all the time

but clickers have a few other advantages that helps (some) people :
- they prevent "overtalking" and excessive verbals on the part of the handler
- makes it easy to develop better timing (in the same manner as an Ecollar)
- clearly identifies when timing was off
- smaller and easier to carry than transmitters (except for a finger kick)
- forces handlers to plan their work then work their plan (by not forgetting to bring it)

with that said .... i want some vids of A's pup !!!!


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

5 months old today and growing more ornery by the minute! :lol:


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

he looks like a jerk...LOL . just kidding sort of ...I like him alot..thanks for sharing.. ornery is good


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Joby Becker said:


> he looks like a jerk...LOL . just kidding sort of ...I like him alot..thanks for sharing.. ornery is good


An ornery jerk even.... you described him spot on, Joby! :lol:


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Looks like he's say he wants you to come just a bit closer with that damn camera. :twisted:


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## Amy Swaby (Jul 16, 2008)

I'm in love with that last one on the chair, he looks hilarious.


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## Colin Chin (Sep 20, 2006)

straight to the heart and mind of your reply, Alice. Robbie looking good each day. Cheers.


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Some bitework vids of Robbie II last and this week. 6 months old now and doing nicely. :mrgreen:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpaHXndKlO4&list=UUq_zALFoFdTQRX3nePy4Lzw&feature=share

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpaHXndKlO4&list=UUq_zALFoFdTQRX3nePy4Lzw&feature=share


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

Alice Bezemer said:


> Some bitework vids of Robbie II last and this week. 6 months old now and doing nicely. :mrgreen:
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpaHXndKlO4&list=UUq_zALFoFdTQRX3nePy4Lzw&feature=share
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpaHXndKlO4&list=UUq_zALFoFdTQRX3nePy4Lzw&feature=share



One word:

Fantastic!


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

VERY NICE pup!


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## Dave Martin (Aug 11, 2010)

He looks great, Alice. Curious, what is the reasoning behind the handler/dog turning to run at the end of each session?

Continued success with him


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Alice Bezemer said:


> Some bitework vids of Robbie II last and this week. 6 months old now and doing nicely. :mrgreen:
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpaHXndKlO4&list=UUq_zALFoFdTQRX3nePy4Lzw&feature=share
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpaHXndKlO4&list=UUq_zALFoFdTQRX3nePy4Lzw&feature=share



And ofcourse I posted the links wrong at damn Youtube made it a damn playlist :twisted:

These are the links I meant :lol:

http://youtu.be/bpaHXndKlO4


http://youtu.be/ZrYBGSATZ9k


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Dave Martin said:


> He looks great, Alice. Curious, what is the reasoning behind the handler/dog turning to run at the end of each session?
> 
> Continued success with him


I actually posted the links wrong because youtube made playlists out of them. In the video of the 11th he was choked of the bite and then the decoy retreated with a bit of aggitation and a yell to get the dog riled up. In the video of the 18th he got to keep the french jacket and take it with him until he decides that he drops it... pretty much a victory claim for him to show him he has won the game and gets to keep hold of the jacket and bite a bit longer.


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## Dave Martin (Aug 11, 2010)

Got it. Thanks


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

He's cool, very determined pup, handles stress well


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Robbie II almost 7 months old now. Yup still looks ornery! :razz:


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

Alice, 

Got new bitework videos? 


Thanks


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Tiago Fontes said:


> Alice,
> 
> Got new bitework videos?
> 
> ...


This is the last one from last Saturday, arm and a first time leg bite. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9pEe0aUzrgE&list=UUq_zALFoFdTQRX3nePy4Lzw&feature=share


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## R Janssen (Jul 25, 2008)

Alice Bezemer said:


> This is the last one from last Saturday, arm and a first time leg bite.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9pEe0aUzrgE&list=UUq_zALFoFdTQRX3nePy4Lzw&feature=share


Try not to let him use the front legs, it will also prevent the pulling.
Maar het is wel een gif kikkertje. Dat belooft nog wat. :mrgreen:


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

René Hendriks said:


> Try not to let him use the front legs, it will also prevent the pulling.
> Maar het is wel een gif kikkertje. Dat belooft nog wat. :mrgreen:


Idd een behoorlijke gifkikkert! Maakt het alleen maar interessanter :lol:

Je had niet gezien hoe Theo steeds zijn poten weg duwde zeker :razz: hij laat ze nu hangen


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## R Janssen (Jul 25, 2008)

Het waren verschillende filmpjes, zal ik wel de verkeerde hebben gezien. :???:
Dat viel me even op, maar met dat engels vertalen is het niet atijd goed uit te leggen...

Hoe doet ie het op de rest van de onderdelen.? Kistje, apporteren enz.?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

thanks for sharing 
still looks like a jerk


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

Alice Bezemer said:


> Idd een behoorlijke gifkikkert! Maakt het alleen maar interessanter :lol:
> 
> Je had niet gezien hoe Theo steeds zijn poten weg duwde zeker :razz: hij laat ze nu hangen


English please... I would like to understand what you are discussing (training wise, of course...lol). 

Se não, começo a falar português!


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Tiago Fontes said:


> English please... I would like to understand what you are discussing (training wise, of course...lol).
> 
> Se não, começo a falar português!


Start talking Portugese and I will spank you :lol:

We were talking about his legs and how they are pushed aside to prevent him.from pulling on the bite. Also Robbie looks like s spiteful and angry little SOB. He has quite the pissy temper to him but it keeps training him interesting.


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

René Hendriks said:


> Het waren verschillende filmpjes, zal ik wel de verkeerde hebben gezien. :???:
> Dat viel me even op, maar met dat engels vertalen is het niet atijd goed uit te leggen...
> 
> Hoe doet ie het op de rest van de onderdelen.? Kistje, apporteren enz.?


He is doing quite nicely. Im everything he does he shows the same forcefulness and persistance. He is starting to show some attitude now tho so the fun has begun! Fetch will be interesting enough. He does a perfect fetch each time but to hand it off takes some convincing :lol:


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## David Baker (Aug 31, 2013)

that leg bite what something serious, alice. I like him a lot.. Looks great


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Nice work! 
The "pissy attitude" is pretty apparent when he got on the leg.


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

Alice Bezemer said:


> Start talking Portugese and I will spank you :lol:
> 
> We were talking about his legs and how they are pushed aside to prevent him.from pulling on the bite. Also Robbie looks like s spiteful and angry little SOB. He has quite the pissy temper to him but it keeps training him interesting.



Podes tentar, mas não irás lograr... lol


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Tiago Fontes said:


> Podes tentar, mas não irás lograr... lol


Nunca me emitir um desafio, eu poderia aceitar!

:lol:


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

Tenta...lol

Nice google translator.


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Tiago Fontes said:


> Tenta...lol
> 
> Nice google translator.


Damnit! *goes back to google to translate*

Tente não me, Espanque você eu vou. :lol:

Remember this... I have had you 5 foot away from me once already, next time I'm making good on my promise!


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

Talk is cheap...lol

BTW, google is screwing up.


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Tiago Fontes said:


> Talk is cheap...lol
> 
> BTW, google is screwing up.


Nothing new there, google is always screwing up!

Talk is cheap but trust me on this my boy... Have me in a 5 foot radius of you again, be it on a club, field, visit, whatever! I'm bending you over my knee and giving you the spanking of a lifetime :lol:


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

Alice Bezemer said:


> Nothing new there, google is always screwing up!
> 
> Talk is cheap but trust me on this my boy... Have me in a 5 foot radius of you again, be it on a club, field, visit, whatever! I'm bending you over my knee and giving you the spanking of a lifetime :lol:



Ouch... Im bringing bodyguards next time!! LOL


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## Ariel Peldunas (Oct 18, 2008)

I'm really not trying to stir the pot ...but considering this forum is supposed to hold some educational value and facilitate discussion, has no one else noticed the stress that this pup is showing? I've watched each video of him that was posted and aside from the obvious stress you can hear in his vocalizations, I can see that he is trying very hard to get away from the decoy (feet on the decoy pushing himself away, back arched trying to put as much distance between himself and the decoy as possible and even looking like he is trying to go behind the decoy at times). I also noticed in one of the close up shots, his eyes are shifting ...to the handler, to the decoy, to the stick. I see a lot of very obvious signs that he is not comfortable and feeling stressed or conflicted. On the back of the leg, he definitely seems calmer and more comfortable, but in the front of the suit, he looks stressed.

I find it hard to believe that no one else saw this. Maybe I missed comments about it somewhere else in the discussion.


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Ariel Peldunas said:


> I'm really not trying to stir the pot ...but considering this forum is supposed to hold some educational value and facilitate discussion, has no one else noticed the stress that this pup is showing? I've watched each video of him that was posted and aside from the obvious stress you can hear in his vocalizations, I can see that he is trying very hard to get away from the decoy (feet on the decoy pushing himself away, back arched trying to put as much distance between himself and the decoy as possible and even looking like he is trying to go behind the decoy at times). I also noticed in one of the close up shots, his eyes are shifting ...to the handler, to the decoy, to the stick. I see a lot of very obvious signs that he is not comfortable and feeling stressed or conflicted. On the back of the leg, he definitely seems calmer and more comfortable, but in the front of the suit, he looks stressed.
> 
> I find it hard to believe that no one else saw this. Maybe I missed comments about it somewhere else in the discussion.


I've read and reread your post and questions arise...

Now instead of explaining everything to you as I am usually like to do I am going to change things around and pose a question to you instead.

What would you do in this case? You felt that the dog is trying to get away from the decoy, that it is stressed, that it is trying to get behind the decoy and that it is vocal due to his stress. What are you going to do to fix this conflict and the fact that in your eyes he is uncomfortable?

Let me say what I plan to do... I plan to keep working him the exact same way he is being worked. I do not avoid stress or feeling uncomfortable, I am not going to make things easy and fluffy for this pup. This was his 4th bite and 1st bite ever on the leg. He is a young dog that is learning the hows and whats of bitework so there is some stress involved. Your view of the dog pushing himself away from the decoy? ](*,) Okay, let me just ignore that view for now because its not the smartest one out there. There are so many things I could say at this point but I just don't have the patience within myself to do so at this point.

We (my husband and myself) do not work around stress or conflict, we do not take the easy way out for the dog, he either works through it with my help or he is not cut out for the job he is going to get in the future. We do not train around problems by avoiding them, we face them head on and help the dog through it to come out stronger on the other side.

I can't help myself :lol: The dog is NOT trying to get away from the decoy Ariel, you can take my word for that. He pulls due to frustration and anger and not because he wants to hide from the decoy. Had he wanted to hide and get away from the decoy then there would be no bite from him to begin with... He is vocal as most every young dog is and that will subside in time as he gets worked more often and gets more secure in what is expected of him. 

But please tell me what you would do with the dog at this point with what you feel you saw in him that was wrong?

I am quite curious to see what your reply will be.


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## Ariel Peldunas (Oct 18, 2008)

First, I've seen and worked plenty of young dogs that were not vocal at all ...certainly not that much.

It's difficult to say what I would do if he were my dog because I have not watched him mature and seen the progression of his training. I don't know how much work he has had on other equipment nor how he reacted when he was worked on other equipment. I don't know if the stress and conflict is a result of something he is feeling because of the handler or because of the decoy.

To me, he's showing that he's not ready to be doing what he's doing in those videos. And between the first video in early January and the most recent video in early February, I don't see much, if any, improvement in his behavior while in the bicep.

But to answer your question, at the point he's at now, if he were mine, I might stop working him or work him on a sleeve versus a suit and just give him time to grow up. He's still a puppy and not mature (mentally, physically, emotionally) enough yet. I don't believe in masking problems or helping the dog and "taking the easy way out," but I also believe that you can't expect a child to be as mature and handle things the same as they would as an adult and the same holds true for puppies versus adult dogs. 

That said, if he hasn't had any bad experiences in his past and behaves the same or similarly on a sleeve versus a suit, I would probably wash him out and find a new dog. Yes, there are young dogs that are comfortable working on a suit or being hit with a stick at a young age, but I don't believe all dogs mature at the same rate which is why I am willing to give them time to grow up. You have to look at the whole picture and decide whether this puppy is just being pushed too fast or if it's an underlying issue that will always be there. And, just because a puppy will bite a suit doesn't mean he should be biting a suit. 

I'll pose this question to you, what exactly are you teaching him by putting him on a suit and allowing those behaviors to continue to manifest? If it's a matter of him lacking maturity, then, by waiting until he's a bit older he won't be learning bad habits. And if it's a matter of him not having the nerve to do the work, you're still going to see that even if you wait until he's older to put him on a suit and put pressure on him. Could you not work him on a sleeve and still teach the same things without causing stress? 

As you said, clearly he has the drive to work. His drive is telling him he wants to be there and wants to keep his mouth on the suit, but his brain is telling him he's uncomfortable and that shows in the rest of his body language and his eyes.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

i'm all for exchanging opinions and evals of vid clips and it is clear that the pup is being stressed and showing some conflict. how much and if it is good at this point is probably still debatable. 

- but if anyone thinks Alice is going to change the way her trainers are working this pup along, they must also believe in Santa and the Easter bunny 
- imo, suggesting changes would not just be pissing in the wind, it would be like pissing in a typhoon 
- i have seen very few KNPV clips with pillows, wedges or sleeve work and i could be wrong, but i just don't think those tools are used much. they seem to go to suit work quickly and the suits are mostly KNPV kimono style also

- but getting back to the pup.....
- if the pup wanted to bail it probably could have. it was getting pissed off and was clearly taking the other option, but the handlers were trying to stroke it and calm it down and stay in the fight, and what i saw was that it WAS staying in there and fighting thru the stress and easy to see why a KNPV trainer would consider this progress
- even tho i've never been to Holland, i have seen enuff KNPV training clips to know the routine, and it is pretty much the same in all the clips i've ever seen. LOTS of compulsion, lots of stress put on the dog. KNPV types would probably still call this "positive" training and simply building confidence because they are prepping a dog for LE work that will require a tuff as nails dog.
- but i HAVE seen dogs forced into IPO/SchH training that did not want any part of it. they would still grip but their heart wasn't in it and were better off when the owners realized it and put their ego to bed 
- i have no idea what the KNPV washout rate is, but i am damn sure that the majority of KNPV blood lines are damn resilient and genetically bred to bite, and that would mean most dogs will fight thru the heavy compulsion and come out stronger. but to me that is a testament to the adaptability of a good dog more than it is a testament of good training

- then there is the "does the end justify the means ?" argument. clearly in KNPV circles it does
- to me the end result should be a happy aggressive dog that a handler can control without a club or a heavy hand

- others may disagree, but i also think to really measure and evaluate this pup's overall progress i think you would also need to see the pup when it is NOT working. simple shit like how it is in public, how it is around strangers and other dogs, how it is with its food, etc. this is also rarely shown in KNPV vids because it probably is not considered cool to watch. but i think it gives a more clear picture of the overall maturity and temperament of the dog, but that's just me

- as far as putting a lot of pressure on a pup, or how much should be put on, i hope the discussion continues beyond the usual answers : that it will either show the dog has it or doesn't have it.

- furthermore, imo Ariel's and Alice's comments also show how different people will read dogs differently 

my .02, and i welcome comments on my comments from either Alice or Ariel


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Ariel, you are not the only one that sees it.  But I've read enough about certain people's priorities to anticipate their view point and what's relevant to them similar to what Rick is saying. Was reading something a few weeks ago about "positive stress" as being something the dog pushes through and wins, therefore strengthens him. Have wondered how much of this is from the dog's perspective vs. the handler's. I think these types of dogs have a hard wired genetic instinct to fill their mouths and that in KNPV circles, if with what they do, and the dog can't push past it, then he is a wash out. Also what may be age related stress will disappear with maturity and experience instead of brand him for life. Alice's response will be interesting. 

T


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Ariel Peldunas said:


> First, I've seen and worked plenty of young dogs that were not vocal at all ...certainly not that much.
> 
> It's difficult to say what I would do if he were my dog because I have not watched him mature and seen the progression of his training. I don't know how much work he has had on other equipment nor how he reacted when he was worked on other equipment. I don't know if the stress and conflict is a result of something he is feeling because of the handler or because of the decoy.
> 
> ...


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

rick smith said:


> i'm all for exchanging opinions and evals of vid clips and it is clear that the pup is being stressed and showing some conflict. how much and if it is good at this point is probably still debatable.
> 
> - but if anyone thinks Alice is going to change the way her trainers are working this pup along, they must also believe in Santa and the Easter bunny
> - imo, suggesting changes would not just be pissing in the wind, it would be like pissing in a typhoon
> ...


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Ariel, you are not the only one that sees it.  But I've read enough about certain people's priorities to anticipate their view point and what's relevant to them similar to what Rick is saying. Was reading something a few weeks ago about "positive stress" as being something the dog pushes through and wins, therefore strengthens him. Have wondered how much of this is from the dog's perspective vs. the handler's. I think these types of dogs have a hard wired genetic instinct to fill their mouths and that in KNPV circles, if with what they do, and the dog can't push past it, then he is a wash out. *Also what may be age related stress will disappear with maturity and experience instead of brand him for life.* Alice's response will be interesting.
> 
> T


You hit the nail on the head with that one Terrasita!


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Alice Bezemer said:


> You hit the nail on the head with that one Terrasita!


I have to admit that I tend to me more of Ariel's mindset, generally. I'm not usually in a hurry for certain things until they have hit that first leg of maturity. But I also think what you do may depend on how confident you are of the genetics in the line. With my male, I may have more of your mindset and there are things that I have done and asked of him that I never would of the bitch. Now that she has matured, I've began what, for her, is stressful and working her through them. So far she is doing very well. For me the test of course will be how she trials. Its not a question of whether to stress them, but when, and perhaps a better safe than sorry attitude. So here, I can see both sides of it. Its also why I appreciate being able to see your puppy's development, so please, keep it coming. 

T


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

this thread is very interesting..

thanks for sharing everyone.


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## Ariel Peldunas (Oct 18, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> this thread is very interesting..
> 
> thanks for sharing everyone.


Joby ...I think it could be interesting. But I think ego and the tendency to get defensive when someone challenges your opinion or criticizes your dog will prevent this from ever being a productive conversation. I guess I should have just kept my mouth shut or said the dog looks great just like everyone else.


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## Ariel Peldunas (Oct 18, 2008)

"Funny how you don't know all these things that you have listed yet you seem to know the dog very well? Enough to judge how his progression should be or how he should be trained? Let me enlighten you tho, the stress that he is suffering is not avoidance... it is however, as you already stated, something he is feeling... he is feeling a lot of anger. This pup is filled with anger and venom. Something that a 3 minute video doesn't tell you and a big reason why I never like to post video's. You are seeing a 3 minute video and are basing your entire judgement on it, are even ready to wash the dog out over 180 seconds of material that do not really tell you anything about the dog at all..." 

*Alice ...I actually think I did anything but base my entire opinion of the dog on those videos. I made observations based on the videos and then answered the questions you asked me as best I could. Really, nothing I could have said would have been the right answer unless I rescinded my original post and agreed with everything you said and thought. But I don't. I don't know the pup's background, but I do know what he is showing in those videos is not ideal and not what I would want to see out of my dog. Whatever is causing that behavior ...stress, anger, venom, conflict, whatever you want to call it ...is not what I'd want to be seeing out of my own dog. Not that I didn't expect it, but the only reason you asked me questions about what I think and what I would do in your last post was so that you could tell me how wrong I am ...not because you actually wanted to know what someone else thought.* 

"4 bites You judge on 4 bites and him being vocal on these bites and say he isn't ready.... Almost all dogs are vocal when working in the beginning, be it a dog of 6 months or 6 years. Throw a new experiance at them and they will show stress and if its bitework will vocalize..." 

*I will refer to my previous statement ...I've worked plenty of dogs ...young and old and of varying caliber ...most of them did not vocalize and if they did to the extent that the pup in the videos is vocalizing I would rethink what I was doing or reevaluate the dog.*

"First off, its a dog and not a child so lets just make that clear for a moment. Dogs mature a very different way and at a very different rate then a child does. And yes, you are taking the easy way out by saying he is a puppy and not mature. If he is mature enough in his actions to bite then he is mature enough to deal with everything that goes along with it. We are talking about training a dog here, not coddling a dog, but training it! Training is all about letting the dog experiance things that will build confidence in the dog and make him stronger in character. Your view is all about turning the dog into a pussy and not giving him confidence at all. Its all about coddling the dog because he is not ready yet in your eyes,and using it as an excuse to mask the inability to work with dogs in order to build them up instead of washing them out." 

*So, I guess when puppies start biting everything at 6-8 weeks old, they are ready to be put on a suit and deal with everything that goes along with it? They're going to have to deal with it eventually, right? So why not just throw them to the wolves as soon as they are old enough to have the drive to do it and not waste any time teaching them proper technique or building their confidence?*

"Again the coddling thing... gheez... You must wash out a shitload of dogs then huh? 

I need a bigger wall to bang my smiley into, the one I have been using so far is not working out for me! Work him on the sleeve and stop causing him stress... hmmmm. Again the taking the easy way out thing! Its not about removing stress Ariel! It is about teaching him to work through the stress! He has the drive and spine to work through this with me and my husband and fellow clubmembers by his side. I honest to god don't even know why I am trying to explain this. 

Yep I really need a HUGE wallbanging smiley but since I can't find one this will just have to do..."

*There's clearly no point in trying to have a valid discussion with you. In your mind, you'll always be right and I'll always be wrong. I guess we'll just see how the pup looks when he's an adult. I don't like what I see in the videos, but he's your dog and clearly you're happy with your results and that's really all that matters.*


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Ariel Peldunas said:


> Joby ...I think it could be interesting. But I think ego and the tendency to get defensive when someone challenges your opinion or criticizes your dog will prevent this from ever being a productive conversation. I guess I should have just kept my mouth shut or said the dog looks great just like everyone else.



It has nothing to do with ego or being defensive when challenged. I have my opinion and you have yours. I base my opinion on a dog that I have been raising from week 6 as to where you base your opinion on some video's I shared that were shot over the grand total of 3 weeks time. You seem to feel the dog is not good enough or not ready to deal with what he is doing at this point in time. I feel the dog is more then ready for what he is doing and could in fact be doing a lot more then I am letting him since he shows he is ready for it. You say there can be no productive conversation but let me put it to you like this. There can be no productive conversation because in your eyes I am wrong and you are right and thats probably the end of it for you. No offense here Ariel but you judged on a few snipits of video that didn't really say all that much about the dog , a dog that you don't know but you expect me to agree with you? Nope, not happening... So yes, on that I do get defensive when i see judgement passed that based in a total lack of knowledge of the how and what and who my dog, any dog is!


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Ariel Peldunas said:


> "Funny how you don't know all these things that you have listed yet you seem to know the dog very well? Enough to judge how his progression should be or how he should be trained? Let me enlighten you tho, the stress that he is suffering is not avoidance... it is however, as you already stated, something he is feeling... he is feeling a lot of anger. This pup is filled with anger and venom. Something that a 3 minute video doesn't tell you and a big reason why I never like to post video's. You are seeing a 3 minute video and are basing your entire judgement on it, are even ready to wash the dog out over 180 seconds of material that do not really tell you anything about the dog at all..."
> 
> *Alice ...I actually think I did anything but base my entire opinion of the dog on those videos. I made observations based on the videos and then answered the questions you asked me as best I could. Really, nothing I could have said would have been the right answer unless I rescinded my original post and agreed with everything you said and thought. But I don't. I don't know the pup's background, but I do know what he is showing in those videos is not ideal and not what I would want to see out of my dog. Whatever is causing that behavior ...stress, anger, venom, conflict, whatever you want to call it ...is not what I'd want to be seeing out of my own dog. Not that I didn't expect it, but the only reason you asked me questions about what I think and what I would do in your last post was so that you could tell me how wrong I am ...not because you actually wanted to know what someone else thought.*
> 
> ...



](*,)](*,)](*,)


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

I see nothing wrong with this pup. In fact, I like him and what he is showing... 

I see a dog that has aggression and drive... I am willing to bet that in 15 months from now, those criticizing its character will be saying he looks great... I suspect he will grow into a powerful dog. 

Let's wait and see. 

Tiago 


PS: Alice, dont spank me. 8)


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Tiago Fontes said:


> I see nothing wrong with this pup. In fact, I like him and what he is showing...
> 
> I see a dog that has aggression and drive... I am willing to bet that in 15 months from now, those criticizing its character will be saying he looks great... I suspect he will grow into a powerful dog.
> 
> ...


Me thinks.... you really want me to spank you! :lol:


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

Nothing could be further from truth.


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Tiago Fontes said:


> Nothing could be further from truth.


Me thinks... Me really still wants to spank you tho soooooo... to bad :lol:


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

I think I'm going into avoidance... Perhaps if I get vocal, the spanking will go away?...


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Tiago Fontes said:


> I think I'm going into avoidance... Perhaps if I get vocal, the spanking will go away?...


Try it? See if I will change my approach :lol:


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

You'll guide me through the stress of it? LOL


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Tiago Fontes said:


> You'll guide me through the stress of it? LOL


I will most definately try :lol: :lol: :lol: whatever you do tho... Don't make to much eyecontact with me and for god sakes don't push me away with your hands, it might appear as if you didn't want to be spanked :mrgreen:


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

In other words, 

If I put my hands on you while the spanking occurs, it means I am avoiding it? 

Damn...spanking is complex!


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Tiago Fontes said:


> In other words,
> 
> If I put my hands on you while the spanking occurs, it means I am avoiding it?
> 
> Damn...spanking is complex!


Yup, you got the right idea... so follow the rules or I might have to wash you out for this spanking :twisted:


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

You could be washing out a very good spanking prospect! LOL


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

I think when digesting this thread, it might be also applicable to think about in what light the dog is viewing the "helper". 

And also think about the different possible ways that the dog could have been initially introduced to the "helper", and or the bitework, which is a path chosen by the dogs owners and trainers.

something tells me that this pup might not be viewing the helper as his nursery school playmate, and probably is not looking to play pattycake with him, or hold a puppy tug and smile at him at this time....

pup still looks like a jerk


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

_" ... if anyone thinks Alice is going to change the way her trainers are working this pup along, they must also believe in Santa and the Easter bunny"_


But that doesn't mean that varying observations and opinions shouldn't be expressed and discussed. That's why a board like this exists, right? 






Ariel Peldunas said:


> I guess I should have just kept my mouth shut ....


No, that's not so. JMHO!


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

and here I thought it was the topic of the spanking that drew Connie out of her lair..  still got those gloves???? 8-[


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Joby Becker said:


> I think when digesting this thread, it might be also applicable to think about in what light the dog is viewing the "helper".
> 
> And also think about the different possible ways that the dog could have been initially introduced to the "helper", and or the bitework, which is a path chosen by the dogs owners and trainers.
> 
> ...


I wish it was only looks, he is a jerk! :mrgreen: Thats what makes working him such fun!


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Tiago Fontes said:


> You could be washing out a very good spanking prospect! LOL


Not washing you out then :lol:


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

*Alice got my opinion in PM earlier when this was posted, and I think we agreed that we don't agree on everything, but that in person, things would be more explainable, and it would be actually enjoyable to train together vs. debate on the internet. Unfortunately, that is all we have here. I think Rick brings up some things that are important here. *



rick smith said:


> i'm all for exchanging opinions and evals of vid clips and it is clear that the pup is being stressed and showing some conflict. how much and if it is good at this point is probably still debatable.
> 
> *It is clear the pup is showing some conflict. The conflict later on can cause problems in every facet of the dogs work. If it's strong, it can come through it, but I think I would then pose the question, why cause something that can be avoided by taking some other steps and introducing it later. I'd like alice to relate the Stok Stellen in relation to a puppy and an adult. how is it trained. relate bitework to that. Not avoiding the issue, but not rewarding the growling, and encouraging a dog that is quiet and dominating.*
> 
> ...


*Hopefully you don't mind my comments. *


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Is he more of a jerk now? or when you started his training?

this isn't directed at you, but from having conversations recently with some other dog folks. Do we make our dogs more like we want them? Harder, more compliant, a jerk, etc? I really think we get what we expect usually. We bring out in a dog what we cause, and it's usually what we want or expect. We produce what we think we see.




Alice Bezemer said:


> I wish it was only looks, he is a jerk! :mrgreen: Thats what makes working him such fun!


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

> Pups don't get pissed off. They chase, catch, kill or they fight, flee or displace.


this phrase stood out, just for the record, I view this as a statement of opinion, not fact.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

I think it's a given everything here should be a persons opinion. just because You and I agree on one thing a third party might not agree with us.

Make me believe I am wrong about this!! My viewpoint is that the "pissed off" display is a combination of chase, catch, kill or they are scared a little and fighting though biting and thrashing.

People say a head shake is a prey behavior. If a dog is getting scratched by a cat in his mouth, and he shakes to kill it, is it a prey behavior? or is he shaking the cat to kill it because he is scared of getting hurt and choosing to fight harder to subdue his prey turned threat. 






Joby Becker said:


> this phrase stood out, just for the record, I view this as a statement of opinion, not fact.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Dave Colborn said:


> I think it's a given everything here should be a persons opinion. just because You and I agree on one thing a third party might not agree with us.
> 
> Make me believe I am wrong about this!! My viewpoint is that the "pissed off" display is a combination of chase, catch, kill or they are scared a little and fighting though biting and thrashing.
> 
> People say a head shake is a prey behavior. If a dog is getting scratched by a cat in his mouth, and he shakes to kill it, is it a prey behavior? or is he shaking the cat to kill it because he is scared of getting hurt and choosing to fight harder to subdue his prey turned threat.


I hear ya loud and clear. I try to preface things with "I think" more than some I suppose, I try, dont always succeed . 

The way some of this stuff reads on here, it would be fairly easy for some people to read it, and take it as a fact.. 

kinda like when Steve Burger said this..

*" Back up to the basic training principle.. a dog will willingly move from discomfort to comfort but will not willingly go from comfort to discomfort."*

this is another example of an opinion, one that I think is incorrect in many instances.. for the record.

I have seen dogs dive headfirst into uncomfortable quite painful situations due to what I would call "being pissed"... in my opinion.. to disagree with two birds in one sentence.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

I agree a dog can go from comfort to discomfort (like a nervy dog comfortable by his handler to a man in a bitesuit where the nervy-nous shows) because the dog has prey drive that over-rides his fear, and views the equipment as a prey item. They appear growly and "pissed" because they are really or at some point have been scared by that man, and don't or didn't want to be there.




Joby Becker said:


> I hear ya loud and clear. I try to preface things with "I think" more than some I suppose, I try, dont always succeed .
> 
> The way some of this stuff reads on here, it would be fairly easy for some people to read it, and take it as a fact..
> 
> ...


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

But do you assume that all fight or aggression behaviors have a basis in fear? There can be many sources for the conflict a dog exhibits. I don't know if you can tell from a video, necessarily, what the total make-up of the dog is or even the source of the conflict. I think there is a totality of experience with the dog that factors into the decision of what you do with it that unless you have raised it and trained it thus far, you can't know. There may risks that you personally may not take with that particular puppy but someone else will because they are confident of the outcome or consider the training itself a test as to whether to continue that dog in training for what will be real work instead of sport. 

T


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> But do you assume that all fight or aggression behaviors have a basis in fear?
> 
> *No.*
> 
> ...


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## Ariel Peldunas (Oct 18, 2008)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> But do you assume that all fight or aggression behaviors have a basis in fear? There can be many sources for the conflict a dog exhibits. I don't know if you can tell from a video, necessarily, what the total make-up of the dog is or even the source of the conflict. I think there is a totality of experience with the dog that factors into the decision of what you do with it that unless you have raised it and trained it thus far, you can't know. There may risks that you personally may not take with that particular puppy but someone else will because they are confident of the outcome or consider the training itself a test as to whether to continue that dog in training for what will be real work instead of sport.
> 
> T


We were just discussing the basis of defensive type aggression in another forum type environment and similar questions to what you asked came up. What creates defense in a dog? I think we can all agree that the puppy in that video is not working in prey drive (based upon his behavior and comments from Alice and others that she agreed with). I think the prey gets him there, but once he's there, the "anger" or "pissiness" or whatever we're calling it takes over. Clearly he doesn't view the man in the suit as a giant prey object. 

So, what motivates a dog to be defensive? In my opinion (based on what I've learned about it through reading, listening and observation) defense is the drive that causes as animal to protect himself and his resources. He can choose to fight, run away (flight) or try to avoid the threat and displace himself. To me, fear might not be the best term just because it always has a negative connotation, but I think to say the dog is motivated to be defensive out of concern about a threat is appropriate. Whether we call it fear or concern, the dog isn't comfortable with whatever he is showing the defense towards and wants to make it go away or stop what it's doing. I agree that the dogs can learn to enjoy engaging the threat and will readily seek out a fight once they learn they are bigger and stronger and more powerful, but I think they have to understand how to play that game and how to make the threat go away before you start testing them.

Which brings me to the second part of your post (and kind of reiterates some of Dave's questions) ...is this an age-appropriate test for a puppy ...if testing is the goal? And if testing isn't the goal, why train in a way that's detrimental? 

I know the answer really is Alice doesn't feel that this type of training is detrimental. I disagree. I really do hope we get updated videos as the training progresses and the puppy gets older. I would like to see how things transpire and I am genuinely curious. I know my directness is off-putting to some, especially those who feel challenged or threatened by what I ask and say. I'm making observations and giving my opinions based on my experience. If I'm wrong, rather than someone just telling me I'm wrong and don't understand, explain why a different way is better and show me some evidence that the different way works.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Dave Colborn said:


> I agree a dog can go from comfort to discomfort (like a nervy dog comfortable by his handler to a man in a bitesuit where the nervy-nous shows) because the dog has prey drive that over-rides his fear, and views the equipment as a prey item. They appear growly and "pissed" because they are really or at some point have been scared by that man, and don't or didn't want to be there.


I can agree with this, although not an example I was thinking of.  

I was not even thinking of explaining the "whys" just that I have seen it occur..

I guess it can also boil down to semantics, terminology and to what degree of anthropomorphism is acceptable. I will still use the terms pissed off at times concerning dogs, as well as "annoyed" and "frustrated" I think that frustration can also lend itself to becoming pissed off.

I also believe in the expression of "rage" or "anger" (being "mad") in dogs too  I know these are human terms, but I think they are pretty widely expressed in the animal kingdom, I think....

I think that when we say the dog "fights", that many things can influence why or how a dog fights.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Ariel Peldunas said:


> We were just discussing the basis of defensive type aggression in another forum type environment and similar questions to what you asked came up. What creates defense in a dog? I think we can all agree that the puppy in that video is not working in prey drive (based upon his behavior and comments from Alice and others that she agreed with). I think the prey gets him there, but once he's there, the "anger" or "pissiness" or whatever we're calling it takes over. Clearly he doesn't view the man in the suit as a giant prey object.
> 
> So, what motivates a dog to be defensive? In my opinion (based on what I've learned about it through reading, listening and observation) defense is the drive that causes as animal to protect himself and his resources. He can choose to fight, run away (flight) or try to avoid the threat and displace himself. To me, fear might not be the best term just because it always has a negative connotation, but I think to say the dog is motivated to be defensive out of concern about a threat is appropriate. Whether we call it fear or concern, the dog isn't comfortable with whatever he is showing the defense towards and wants to make it go away or stop what it's doing. I agree that the dogs can learn to enjoy engaging the threat and will readily seek out a fight once they learn they are bigger and stronger and more powerful, but I think they have to understand how to play that game and how to make the threat go away before you start testing them.
> 
> ...


Well, I don't think everything about a dog can be explained in terms of prey and defense and have two dogs that I know enjoy a fight and can throw what I call little "anger fits." They aren't threatened or concerned. I know that about my dogs because I live with them and have raised them and see them in all sorts of situations. I'm most likely to be the source of their conflict instead of something external. 

As for the puppy in the video, I don't have a clue as to what is motivating his action. Its a guess at best. There are several different pressures being applied--some to actually elicit a response if nothing else to get him through it, or so it seems. My next question is whether he has a choice as to whether he will stay on the bite. There is simply too much that I can't see while this is going on including his eyes. I also don't know his training history or how he relates to the people in the video. Words like "jerk" to describe a dog mean absolutely nothing to me. I assume dogs like him are bred pretty high up on certain traits as in what I refer to as "la la land." The Betsie vids I found offensive. This doesn't strike me that way. Its just typical KNPV training I've seen in videos. Looking at this stuff makes me wonder when you look at the job the dog will do as a PSD, is this all really necessary? Furthermore, this is a "purpose" dog that they will have for a limited time.

When I take a dog for me personally, there is no wash out. I see no need to pile it on before I feel the dog is usually mature enough to handle it. I really believe in age 3. No one wants to work with my time schedule on a dog. They want to get some satisfaction out of it as early as possible. . They really feel deprived when I say, "scale him back," or worse, "he's two, put him up for a year." I can be the queen of molly coddle depending on the dog. 

However, I don't agree that you can predict this is detrimental to obtaining their final goal--KNPV certification and future PSD. Any of us can second guess it all we want but at the end of the day, he's hers and its her prerogative how she trains him.

T


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Since getting into bite sport I've often seen something that is completely backwards to me coming from yrs of working terriers in the ground. 
Growling and shaking on the bite is something I've seen with most of the little bassids I've owned. Even the larger terriers I've had(White bull, Pit, Kerry Blue). 

I've never seen it as stress in either tug games or working the in the ground. 
I've seen a few that were backed out of a hole after being 5-6-7 ft deep but you usually know to expect that before a dog ever goes to ground. You retire those. 
You just read the dog and I've never seen a growler or shaker back away from fox, raccoon, ground hog, whatever.

Just an observation.


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Quite the interesting read...

Its funny how people can actually say that the way I feel my dog should be trained is detrimental to him. Its even funnier when I think on the bases for this claim... Its gets even more funny when I realise that the statements made are coming based on a 3 week time period with maybe 10 minutes in total of bitework where they see things and feel they should make judgements on what they see. 

Someone stated that his progress wasn't where it should be, he was just as vocal now as he was in the first video. So? Its called a learning process... Its called giving the dog time to grow into the experiance and exercise that he is doing... I could sit here and explain until I am blue in the face and still it would not matter since views are based on such a limited amount of time and such little information that it simply is useless to do so. I can sit here and say this way of training is not detrimental to this particular dog because I know this dog through and through and am fully capable of knowing what he can and can not handle but its of no use since people will insist they know better based on 10 minutes of video. 

I can sit here and say that this dog does not want to get away from the decoy at all, that the dog is doing everything in its power to stay on the bite and just wants me and others to **** off and leave him to bite like he wants to, but people will insist they know better based on 10 minutes of video.

I am not going to do that however... I am just going to let people draw conclusions while I keep training my dog in a way that I view is working for this particular dog. A dog that I have raised from 6 weeks old, that I know through and through and a dog that I know will not be harmed or set back by my way of training. So while people discuss the bad training this dog is getting and how he is being ruined, I will be on the field, working this actual dog and watching him mature and grow....

Feel free to discuss at length people, I have a dog to ruin so catch you all later... :lol:


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## Marcel Winter (Mar 29, 2013)

Alice Bezemer said:


> This is the last one from last Saturday, arm and a first time leg bite.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9pEe0aUzrgE&list=UUq_zALFoFdTQRX3nePy4Lzw&feature=share



looks promising good grip like the leg bite nice decoy work from José leuk om te volgen !


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Marcel Winter said:


> looks promising good grip like the leg bite nice decoy work from José leuk om te volgen !


José is an excellent decoy! He knows how to read the situation and gives excellent feedback. A true helper in any way that one could need. Robbie doet het lekker... word een leuke vent om mee te werken.


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## Marcel Winter (Mar 29, 2013)

Alice Bezemer said:


> José is an excellent decoy! He knows how to read the situation and gives excellent feedback. A true helper in any way that one could need. Robbie doet het lekker... word een leuke vent om mee te werken.


Een goede helper is het halve werk komt helemaal goed leuke hond :-D


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Bob. love it!!

I will say, the same behavior in either dog, I think comes out of defense but is it bad? IE the dog initially gets into a hairy spot with an animal, and fights back.  Comes through it. Shakes it's head to subdue the prey so it can stop the hurt/pain/fear. Finds out killing this way is effective. Basically was presented with a threat. Shook it's head. And won. You can't tell a badger to back off bringing up a young dog. The dog has to show what it's got or back out of the hole.

With the KNPV vid, the dog is growling and uncomfortable? at 5 months. If you believe what I just wrote above, then if you apply this to Alices dog, the question is not whether it is right or wrong so much as is it too early. I think we have Alices answer. She likes what this produces. My OPINION is no, I don't want the dog to get to the point of possibly"backing out of the hole" instead incrementally at a lower level showing the dog how to beat a threat. It's opinion. What is fact is that some dogs back out of the hole from being scared, some don't.

(This sentence is in English) so the Dutch speakers couldn't understand what I was saying, almost as if it was secret....





Bob Scott said:


> Since getting into bite sport I've often seen something that is completely backwards to me coming from yrs of working terriers in the ground.
> Growling and shaking on the bite is something I've seen with most of the little bassids I've owned. Even the larger terriers I've had(White bull, Pit, Kerry Blue).
> 
> I've never seen it as stress in either tug games or working the in the ground.
> ...


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Marcel Winter said:


> Een goede helper is het halve werk komt helemaal goed leuke hond :-D


 
That's true!

It's surprising what a combination of Swiss German and English can provide!


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I have read most of these posts.

Alice maintained in one post that she is a "simpleton". So am I. My training started and still is on the training field "Full Stop".

Markers, positive / negative training is something that is not used by me but which I definitely do not abhor. I attended a course on this. But, it is not for me.

I have a pup and I raise this pup, whether I wish to do sports with him or not, by showing him who lays down the laws.

The laws that I lay down in 24h exist in training. If I say "jump", Apport, etc. these have to be carried out immediately once learnt.

I watched Robbie in the videos. All I could see was a swishing of a tail boding no good will for the decoy.

i obviously have an affiliation to Alice (although she may call me a Sassenach) but I lean towards her training methods more than most.

I have read Ariel's posts but would say, it's never too late, but it "could" be too early but at 5 months, one would like to know where one is?


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

6 months. Born 15-7-2013. Robbie was 6 months old, turning 7 months old tomorrow. Started his way to early and ofcourse extremely detrimental bitework at 6 months old :mrgreen: I wanted to start even sooner but he was teething so I had to force my eager self to wait longer so he could get rid of those darn teeth.


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Gillian Schuler said:


> I have read most of these posts.
> 
> Alice maintained in one post that she is a "simpleton". So am I. My training started and still is on the training field "Full Stop".
> 
> ...


The bitework for Robbie isn't about knowing where he is. Never doubted he would bite to begin with or what he would show when on the bite. Right now, his attitude is one of "**** off and let me stay where I am" He does not want anyone near him or touching him since he expects that will mean him having to come off the bite which he REALLY doesn't want to do right now. He is going to have to learn that his say means nothing at all and our say is what matters... Its a work in progress but he will get there, its why its called training to begin with. We started him on the bite because he was done teething and was ready to move onto the next traject in his training, OB and Bitework. He loves the bitework, hates the OB :lol: 
ooh, almost forgot! SASSENACH! :lol:


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## Ariel Peldunas (Oct 18, 2008)

Hopefully you will post videos as his training progresses and he continues to mature so all of us doubters will have to eat our words. Until then, you've made it clear that there's nothing to discuss and you see no benefit to explaining your approach, which I can understand. Where I see conflict and stress, you see a dog that is saying "Leave me alone and let me bite." I would just prefer to see different body language in my own dogs. And, although I'm basing my observations on 10 minutes of video, I can watch 10 minutes of another dog working and see different behaviors that I prefer ...no growling/vocalizing, a dog that's comfortable having full body contact with the decoy, a dog that has calm and focused eyes and not a shifting gaze. I would ask more questions about how you see these behaviors manifesting as he matures or how his training will progress, but I understand it's just a matter of you doing what you inherently believe is best for this dog and the proof will come in time.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I'm not questioning what you are doing, ok? That might come later.


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

Ariel Peldunas said:


> Hopefully you will post videos as his training progresses and he continues to mature so all of us doubters will have to eat our words. Until then, you've made it clear that there's nothing to discuss and you see no benefit to explaining your approach, which I can understand. Where I see conflict and stress, you see a dog that is saying "Leave me alone and let me bite." I would just prefer to see different body language in my own dogs. And, although I'm basing my observations on 10 minutes of video, I can watch 10 minutes of another dog working and see different behaviors that I prefer ...no growling/vocalizing, a dog that's comfortable having full body contact with the decoy, a dog that has calm and focused eyes and not a shifting gaze. I would ask more questions about how you see these behaviors manifesting as he matures or how his training will progress, but I understand it's just a matter of you doing what you inherently believe is best for this dog and the proof will come in time.



Please post what you consider proper behavior at the same age, doing the same type of work. 


Regards


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Gillian Schuler said:


> I'm not questioning what you are doing, ok? That might come later.


:lol: I never thought you were questioning me at all 

I just wanted to explain where he was at right now and what his state of mind is. I decided to explain on the post I quoted from you because I am kinda tired of explaining myself to others who think they know my dog better then I do


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Tiago Fontes said:


> Please post what you consider proper behavior at the same age, doing the same type of work.
> 
> 
> Regards


That would interest me, too.

On the other hand I find that each of us has the right to work our dogs as we see fit without criticism of the "work in progress". *Questions are in order* in my mind but criticism before the pup / dog is "finished" has actually not much sense.

Each of us has h/her own way of doing things and all I can say is, stick to what you are doing and do not let anyone deter you.

This is a general sentiment.


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Ariel Peldunas said:


> Hopefully you will post videos as his training progresses and he continues to mature so all of us doubters will have to eat our words. Until then, you've made it clear that there's nothing to discuss and you see no benefit to explaining your approach, which I can understand. Where I see conflict and stress, you see a dog that is saying "Leave me alone and let me bite." I would just prefer to see different body language in my own dogs. And, although I'm basing my observations on 10 minutes of video, I can watch 10 minutes of another dog working and see different behaviors that I prefer ...no growling/vocalizing, a dog that's comfortable having full body contact with the decoy, a dog that has calm and focused eyes and not a shifting gaze. I would ask more questions about how you see these behaviors manifesting as he matures or how his training will progress, but I understand it's just a matter of you doing what you inherently believe is best for this dog and the proof will come in time.


Here's the thing.... I only post videos because I was asked to so that is exactly what I will do. I won't post them to make people eat their words :lol: I have nothing to prove here.... 

You disagree together with Dave on how and why I train my dog the way I do and that is your good right. I don't feel the need to go into detail on how and what since minds have been made up and I do not plan to change them since I know I will never be able to and therefor its a waste of my time. 

At the end of the day you will judge on 10 minutes of video of a dog that you do not know as to where I will work this dog having known him for the last 6 months and knowing his character the way I do. Back that up with 20 plus years of training in KNPV with all manner and sorts of dogs and there is your answer. This doesn't mean I am right or that I expect people to agree with me but it does mean I'm not completely ignorant and incapable of reading my own dog.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9pEe0aUzrgE&list=UUq_zALFoFdTQRX3nePy4Lzw

3:04 Supports what you say. The dog doesn't want the handler close. 

What will that look like at a year, or when the dog gets sold....





Alice Bezemer said:


> Here's the thing.... I only post videos because I was asked to so that is exactly what I will do. I won't post them to make people eat their words :lol: I have nothing to prove here....
> 
> You disagree together with Dave on how and why I train my dog the way I do and that is your good right. I don't feel the need to go into detail on how and what since minds have been made up and I do not plan to change them since I know I will never be able to and therefor its a waste of my time.
> 
> At the end of the day you will judge on 10 minutes of video of a dog that you do not know as to where I will work this dog having known him for the last 6 months and knowing his character the way I do. Back that up with 20 plus years of training in KNPV with all manner and sorts of dogs and there is your answer. This doesn't mean I am right or that I expect people to agree with me but it does mean I'm not completely ignorant and incapable of reading my own dog.


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

Dave Colborn said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9pEe0aUzrgE&list=UUq_zALFoFdTQRX3nePy4Lzw
> 
> 3:04 Supports what you say. The dog doesn't want the handler close.
> 
> What will that look like at a year, or when the dog gets sold....



Why dont you tell us how it will look like in a year or when the dog gets sold. Seriously interested in your opinion.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Dogs tend to revert to what they learn first when under stress, right? Is biting the handler what anyone wants? 

It will either get beaten out, trained out, turned into handler aggression, or it won't manifest itself. I'd like to hear what Alice thinks the likely outcome will be.... 3 of the 4 are very negative. This is all from the "dog not wanting the handler close" learned through training. that type of training doesn't give me the picture it will get trained out or not manifest itself.



Tiago Fontes said:


> Why dont you tell us how it will look like in a year or when the dog gets sold. Seriously interested in your opinion.


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Dave Colborn said:


> Dogs tend to revert to what they learn first when under stress, right? Is biting the handler what anyone wants?
> 
> It will either get beaten out, trained out, turned into handler aggression, or it won't manifest itself. I'd like to hear what Alice thinks the likely outcome will be.... 3 of the 4 are very negative. This is all from the "dog not wanting the handler close" learned through training. that type of training doesn't give me the picture it will get trained out or not manifest itself.


Alice is done giving explanations or views... You seem to know already what happens so my input clearly does not matter.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Oh Alice. We are just talking. What the hell, anyway....



Alice Bezemer said:


> Alice is done giving explanations or views... You seem to know already what happens so my input clearly does not matter.


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

Dave Colborn said:


> Dogs tend to revert to what they learn first when under stress, right? Is biting the handler what anyone wants?
> 
> It will either get beaten out, trained out, turned into handler aggression, or it won't manifest itself. I'd like to hear what Alice thinks the likely outcome will be.... 3 of the 4 are very negative. This is all from the "dog not wanting the handler close" learned through training. that type of training doesn't give me the picture it will get trained out or not manifest itself.



What if the dog learns to overcome the conflict? lol Why would it ever revert back to what it first learned? 


Regards


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Have you ever seen frustration directed at the handler "just go away"?



Tiago Fontes said:


> What if the dog learns to overcome the conflict? lol Why would it ever revert back to what it first learned?
> 
> 
> Regards


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

Dave Colborn said:


> Have you ever seen frustration directed at the handler "just go away"?



Have you ever seen "you wont ever try that crap with me again" directed at the dog?


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Tiago Fontes said:


> Have you ever seen "you wont ever try that crap with me again" directed at the dog?


Yep. Seems silly to let it start in the first place after seeing it....don't fight with a dog that wants to fight. smart training....


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

Dave Colborn said:


> Yep. Seems silly to let it start in the first place after seeing it....don't fight with a dog that wants to fight. smart training....



I am sure Alice, her husband, their training helper know exactly what they have in hands and will act accordingly, should the need arise.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Dave Colborn said:


> Dogs tend to revert to what they learn first when under stress, right? Is biting the handler what anyone wants?
> 
> It will either get beaten out, trained out, turned into handler aggression, or it won't manifest itself. I'd like to hear what Alice thinks the likely outcome will be.... 3 of the 4 are very negative. This is all from the "dog not wanting the handler close" learned through training. that type of training doesn't give me the picture it will get trained out or not manifest itself.


Dave, I do think its quite a stretch to imply that this puppy will be biting its handler when mature, if that is an implication here, which it seems it could be... it did not bite its handler...


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> Dave, I do think its quite a stretch to imply that this puppy will be biting its handler when mature, if that is an implication here, which it seems it could be... it did not bite its handler...


 Watch it again, please. do you think he wouldn't have bit him if he didn't have a hold of his leash? I gave four outcomes that I see as possible, not just biting the handler.


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Dave Colborn said:


> Have you ever seen frustration directed at the handler "just go away"?


Your serious about this? If you are, ya I have seen it worked out…. Time and time again?
I don’t even see stress as being what made this dog look at the handler for a second. I just see it as being young amped up pup. Got to wire the brain to be calm and think when amped.
Regarding stress my understanding is that the stress should be turned up to the point that you see how the dog reacts under it. If turning on the handler is the way the dog decides to communicate his concerns it is easier to work out and let the dog learn what is and is not acceptable when the dog is still young. If you train at a level that you never see how the dog reacts under stress you have no idea what you have.
I guess this is ok if you are training a sport dog and its all about looks? But you really need to bring this out and deal with it in a controlled training environment rather than having the end user have to deal with a dog that does not know how to react when older and doing something for real? 
Way better to deal with this as a pup. 

Be interested to hear what other have to say. 

And what Bob said about a dog making noise when biting… that was so logical.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Dave Colborn said:


> Watch it again, please. do you think he wouldn't have bit him if he didn't have a hold of his leash? I gave four outcomes that I see as possible, not just biting the handler.


I missed that post with the 4 outcomes 

I cannot say "if" he would have actually bitten or not..either way he did not do so, in this example. I have seen many dogs turn their heads and snap their jaws, without making a real determined attempt to actually bite.. and yes I have seen people get bitten, and have been bitten myself 

I am curious as to the wording used here though.

"This is all from the "dog not wanting the handler close" learned through training. that type of training doesn't give me the picture it will get trained out or not manifest itself."

Is it not possible that the dog just may not want the handler close? and that it was not "learned", through training?

I think that is certainly a distinct possibility, especially given that the dog is so young, and has very little bite work training. 

Is it not possible that it has just not been "un-learned" through training, or extinguished as a behavior yet? 

I am not ready to jump on and say it is learned through training..whereas others might..

I have had very small pups that did not want me near them under certain circumstances, dominant possessive types, and that was not learned through "training" in my opinion..

I suppose with a little tricky wording we could agree everything is learned through training though.. LOL... dogs are all different..different inborn traits and behaviors as well as trained and "learned" behaviors 

I had a decent debate a few years ago about aggression being learned as well., but I have seen way too many 4-5 week old puppies display some pretty serious aggression to agree that it is always "learned". If I didn't teach it, and the mother didn't teach it then who did? I think the argument was then that it was learned from the other pups.. but who taught the pup that first displayed it?


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Ariel Peldunas said:


> Hopefully you will post videos as his training progresses and he continues to mature so all of us doubters will have to eat our words. Until then, you've made it clear that there's nothing to discuss and you see no benefit to explaining your approach, which I can understand. Where I see conflict and stress, you see a dog that is saying "Leave me alone and let me bite." I would just prefer to see different body language in my own dogs. And, although I'm basing my observations on 10 minutes of video, I can watch 10 minutes of another dog working and see different behaviors that I prefer ...no growling/vocalizing, a dog that's comfortable having full body contact with the decoy, a dog that has calm and focused eyes and not a shifting gaze. I would ask more questions about how you see these behaviors manifesting as he matures or how his training will progress, but I understand it's just a matter of you doing what you inherently believe is best for this dog and the proof will come in time.


You can't agree that what you see as conflict and stress can result from the dog having one agenda and the handler having another; even hypothetically?

T


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> I missed that post with the 4 outcomes
> 
> *No Problem. *
> 
> ...


 *Picture a pup standing over food. shows his teeth to another one. the other one backs up. I mean they can do a lot of things naturally, why wouldn't they learn early what wins for them. One with genetics that allow it to get nasty by 4-5 weeks are still stimulated by the experience. I think with some, it just looks like it's there, because it doesn't take much at all to get it out. Predisposed to this behavior, I would guess.*


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Chris McDonald said:


> Your serious about this? If you are, ya I have seen it worked out…. Time and time again?
> I don’t even see stress as being what made this dog look at the handler for a second. I just see it as being young amped up pup. Got to wire the brain to be calm and think when amped.
> Regarding stress my understanding is that the stress should be turned up to the point that you see how the dog reacts under it. If turning on the handler is the way the dog decides to communicate his concerns it is easier to work out and let the dog learn what is and is not acceptable when the dog is still young. If you train at a level that you never see how the dog reacts under stress you have no idea what you have.
> I guess this is ok if you are training a sport dog and its all about looks? But you really need to bring this out and deal with it in a controlled training environment rather than having the end user have to deal with a dog that does not know how to react when older and doing something for real?
> ...


Wow, this is the exact conversation and advice I've had with a protection training decoy as we workshop a couple of my personal dogs and one or two in my training group--dial it up and teach the dog to appropriately deal with it in a controlled training environment. I also don't believe everything is learned or trained. Some things are just innate or part of the genetic wiring. Its been my #1 issue---what the dog will do when he amps to lala land and being in his head and having control over it. There is no way to work the dog without him having some sort of stress or conflict. Some dogs have a mind of their own and just want to do it their way. If the handler prohibits that in anyway, they can experience stress or conflict. Depending on the genetic wiring, enough stimulation and they might bite. Just went through this with a marker trained dog that I raised that prior to maturity showed no signs of possession or aggression. 

T


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## Ariel Peldunas (Oct 18, 2008)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> You can't agree that what you see as conflict and stress can result from the dog having one agenda and the handler having another; even hypothetically?
> 
> T


What would their differences of agenda be? When the dog is biting, don't we want the dog to want to be there as much as we want him to want to be there?

I have watched and rewatched the videos and am trying to see it from a different perspective, but every time I watch it, I cringe when I hear the vocalizations and watch his body language. I just can't get on board with the belief that this is good training. Sure, the dog may be able to be worked through it and accomplish the goals the trainers have for him, but I still believe there is a better way. The videos were posted on a public forum and I made observations based on the videos. I think, regardless of what has happened in his life up until this point or what the training plan is from this point forward, you can see obvious indications that he is feeling stress and conflict and I believe, in such a young dog who has only had a handful of bites, that's probably not beneficial. As professional dog trainers, not only our performance on the field, but also our livelihood, is based on our ability to read a dog very quickly and make adjustments accordingly. Dogs don't lie. Their body language and response to a situation is either a product of their genetics, the impact of their environment or a product of our training. I can look at a snapshot of the puppy in the video and observe behaviors that, in any dog, reveal that he is feeling stressed. Sure, there are other behaviors I observe as well ...ones that show me he does have the drive to do the work and the genetics to bite with good technique and be possessive (especially if he's only had 4 or 5 bites as Alice said). But the stress/avoidance behaviors are glaringly obvious and whether they are a product of the dog feeling uncomfortable due to the handler, the decoy or the environment, they still exist. I know I'm kicking a dead horse here, but people keep questioning why I have made the observations I have. Perhaps reiterating myself will clarify.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Ariel Peldunas said:


> What would their differences of agenda be? When the dog is biting, don't we want the dog to want to be there as much as we want him to want to be there?
> 
> I have watched and rewatched the videos and am trying to see it from a different perspective, but every time I watch it, I cringe when I hear the vocalizations and watch his body language. I just can't get on board with the belief that this is good training. Sure, the dog may be able to be worked through it and accomplish the goals the trainers have for him, but I still believe there is a better way. The videos were posted on a public forum and I made observations based on the videos. I think, regardless of what has happened in his life up until this point or what the training plan is from this point forward, you can see obvious indications that he is feeling stress and conflict and I believe, in such a young dog who has only had a handful of bites, that's probably not beneficial. As professional dog trainers, not only our performance on the field, but also our livelihood, is based on our ability to read a dog very quickly and make adjustments accordingly. Dogs don't lie. Their body language and response to a situation is either a product of their genetics, the impact of their environment or a product of our training. I can look at a snapshot of the puppy in the video and observe behaviors that, in any dog, reveal that he is feeling stressed. Sure, there are other behaviors I observe as well ...ones that show me he does have the drive to do the work and the genetics to bite with good technique and be possessive (especially if he's only had 4 or 5 bites as Alice said). But the stress/avoidance behaviors are glaringly obvious and whether they are a product of the dog feeling uncomfortable due to the handler, the decoy or the environment, they still exist. I know I'm kicking a dead horse here, but people keep questioning why I have made the observations I have. Perhaps reiterating myself will clarify.


Actually, I think she said, what the different agendas are. Do you think bite and only bite is the training agenda? I also think that there is a consensus regarding presence of stress/conflict. What to do about it and whether it will brand him for life, is the bone of contention. I'm not questioning your observations. However, training methods can be as numerous as the number of trainers. Furthermore, I guess I've always felt, assuming competence, the breeder/trainer are the ones that really know the dog. What you see in a few minutes, does't give you all the windows. I don't think you can really assume based on what occurred in that session, what the final product will be. But if nothing else, interesting and thought provoking discussion and about training. 

T


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## Ariel Peldunas (Oct 18, 2008)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Actually, I think she said, what the different agendas are. Do you think bite and only bite is the training agenda? I also think that there is a consensus regarding presence of stress/conflict. What to do about it and whether it will brand him for life, is the bone of contention. I'm not questioning your observations. However, training methods can be as numerous as the number of trainers. Furthermore, I guess I've always felt, assuming competence, the breeder/trainer are the ones that really know the dog. What you see in a few minutes, does't give you all the windows. I don't think you can really assume based on what occurred in that session, what the final product will be. But if nothing else, interesting and thought provoking discussion and about training.
> 
> T


I agree with your last statement. And I would also like to see what the finished product is. I have never preferred to see that much stress manifest in a dog that young. Perhaps I will see the progress and realize that there is a benefit to doing things that way. 

And I also agree that at various stages of training, there will be times that the dog must encounter stress and conflict. He will need to experience feeling stress from the decoy. And he will need to endure the stress/pressure of obedience and control around a decoy. I know my approach is different than some. I've used a lot of negative reinforcement and positive punishment to get a dog under control and teach them to not challenge me. And I've dealt with dogs that were inclined to still try and challenge and fight me even after fights where both of us were bloody and exhausted. I've found that it's much easier on both of us if I can teach the dog the path to what they want is by doing what I want. By using this approach, I can minimize conflict and stress that originates with me. The rigors of training and learning self control produce enough stress without me exacerbating it. And when I do encounter a situation that might potentially create some stress, I try to work on one thing at a time.

I know I'm starting to digress, so let me try to bring it back on topic. If the puppy in the video is still learning how to bite (after 4 or 5 bites, I would assume he still has a lot to learn about proper technique, targeting and such), why compound the stress of learning something new with the stress of engaging a man in a suit with the stress of feeling conflict from the handler? I prefer to break it down and try to work on individual pieces before putting it all together. So ...to try to answer your initial question, no, I know biting is not the only goal. But I also think training components before putting everything together could make sense. We don't go out and train every exercise the dog will be expected to do in a trial or every skill the dog will need to perform operationally in one training session, do we? So why not break down the act of biting as well?


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Now see, this is where training approaches differ. I see negative reinforcement as useless and don't have to test it out to determine that. I also don't have much if any use for positive punishment during the learning phase. You actually used it. Does it make you wrong? No. Because something didn't work for you, does it spell disaster for everyone else? You found a better way for YOU. Alice likes what she does and has obtained results. Now the only caveat to this is for someone who doesn't have a clue about a dog or bad ass dog syndrome thinking they should go out and do the same thing. I can break stuff down in lots of components and stick Shane and I together and we may double it. Others say that's too time consuming. The act of biting? I would venture to say, he already has that as a very hard wired behavior. Now the handlers want to define when, where and how and he might not be in agreement. Its like Rhemy and the act of herding. I started him with control work--completely different than my previous dogs. The act of herding was there. As much as I like to minimize conflict and emphasize reward through me, me restricting him from the engagement he wanted, caused stress/conflict. I don't know how much "man/decoy engagement" is going on here. I just see a guy in a suit who is assisting in different positions with placement and really the handlers are doing everything with the dog. The decoy appears more neutral at this stage, but when I watched I was focused on the dog and handlers. The only way to know is to put a mannequin in a suit and watch the dog's behavior. There are a range of possibilities here, one of which the dog could care less about our concept of the "path to reward vs. what they want to do." But again, only the handlers/trainers really know that. I'm not one who believes in the end justifies the means. There are some things I won't agree with regardless of what the result is for competition or work. But its real easy, I don't have to choose to experience what I don't agree with and I'll walk away from it--most of the time anyway.

T


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Dave Colborn said:


> Bob. love it!!
> 
> I will say, the same behavior in either dog, I think comes out of defense but is it bad? IE the dog initially gets into a hairy spot with an animal, and fights back. Comes through it. Shakes it's head to subdue the prey so it can stop the hurt/pain/fear. Finds out killing this way is effective. Basically was presented with a threat. Shook it's head. And won. You can't tell a badger to back off bringing up a young dog. The dog has to show what it's got or back out of the hole.
> 
> ...



Dave I do understand your comment about defense but is it defense when a dog crawls on it's belly in pitch dark, often 20 -30 ft in length in order to engage the quarry? 
I will say that a good baying dog in the ground will show more defense simply because it will bay the quarry until dug to. That same dog "may" engage when we break through to it on the dig. I see that as courage brought on by two things. Now being able to see the quarry and also the added strength possible added by the handler now being in the ground with it. 
The only "stress" if seen is a few dogs will hackle up in the presence of a fox but even then I've not seen one leave the ground because of it. 
The vast majority of good earth dogs often enter the ground with a squeal that, to me is total excitement. One dog in particular I've worked was our go to dog to tell us if the hole was occupied. If she let out a squeal when at the entrance we knew it was occupied. If she ignored the hole we knew it would be a waste to send in any dog. 
Another thought that just crossed my mind. In the days before my time digging the terrier man relied on the dog's barking, growling, etc in order to locate the dog with a sounding rod. A silent dog in the ground was seldom used. 
Still defense? I'll except the possibility but as you say, 'Is it a bad thing"?!
I did like what I saw in Alice's dog. Defense, possibly but I also saw strength in that dog that tells me it will overcome it with training. That's where the good decoy knows when to back off and when to go forward with pressure.


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## Ariel Peldunas (Oct 18, 2008)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Now see, this is where training approaches differ. I see negative reinforcement as useless and don't have to test it out to determine that. I also don't have much if any use for positive punishment during the learning phase. You actually used it. Does it make you wrong? No. Because something didn't work for you, does it spell disaster for everyone else? You found a better way for YOU. Alice likes what she does and has obtained results. Now the only caveat to this is for someone who doesn't have a clue about a dog or bad ass dog syndrome thinking they should go out and do the same thing. I can break stuff down in lots of components and stick Shane and I together and we may double it. Others say that's too time consuming. The act of biting? I would venture to say, he already has that as a very hard wired behavior. Now the handlers want to define when, where and how and he might not be in agreement. Its like Rhemy and the act of herding. I started him with control work--completely different than my previous dogs. The act of herding was there. As much as I like to minimize conflict and emphasize reward through me, me restricting him from the engagement he wanted, caused stress/conflict. I don't know how much "man/decoy engagement" is going on here. I just see a guy in a suit who is assisting in different positions with placement and really the handlers are doing everything with the dog. The decoy appears more neutral at this stage, but when I watched I was focused on the dog and handlers. The only way to know is to put a mannequin in a suit and watch the dog's behavior. There are a range of possibilities here, one of which the dog could care less about our concept of the "path to reward vs. what they want to do." But again, only the handlers/trainers really know that. I'm not one who believes in the end justifies the means. There are some things I won't agree with regardless of what the result is for competition or work. But its real easy, I don't have to choose to experience what I don't agree with and I'll walk away from it--most of the time anyway.
> 
> T


Terrasita ...just to clarify ...I wasn't using positive punishment during the learning stage. Even when I first began training dogs, I knew that didn't make a whole lot of sense unless I really wanted to create a single event learning scenario. And the times that negative reinforcement created conflict was when I was handling military working dogs and didn't have a say in how I conducted training. I don't typically use negative reinforcement during the learning phase, but I believe there are times it has its merit.

Anyway ...I just wanted to clear that up.


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## Timothy Saunders (Mar 12, 2009)

Chris you hit it on the head. while people on this thread my disagree about when you should stress your dog , they know it is necessary. I do believe that how you train is related to your personal situation. When you have access to more dogs you have time to wait on pups. A lot of people don't have the means to hope that the pup will turn out. The method these people use will tell them about the dog sooner. 

lastly I will say that why a dog does something ( meaning type of drive) is not as important as the fact that he does it. jmho


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## Ariel Peldunas (Oct 18, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> Dave I do understand your comment about defense but is it defense when a dog crawls on it's belly in pitch dark, often 20 -30 ft in length in order to engage the quarry?
> I will say that a good baying dog in the ground will show more defense simply because it will bay the quarry until dug to. That same dog "may" engage when we break through to it on the dig. I see that as courage brought on by two things. Now being able to see the quarry and also the added strength possible added by the handler now being in the ground with it.
> The only "stress" if seen is a few dogs will hackle up in the presence of a fox but even then I've not seen one leave the ground because of it.
> The vast majority of good earth dogs often enter the ground with a squeal that, to me is total excitement. One dog in particular I've worked was our go to dog to tell us if the hole was occupied. If she let out a squeal when at the entrance we knew it was occupied. If she ignored the hole we knew it would be a waste to send in any dog.
> ...


Bob ...do you think it could just be the terriers are inherently more vocal? I have noticed that trend and have seen terriers that aren't showing any other signs of being defensive or stressed except for growling. My terrier growls when he's playing with a toy by himself and he's got a bigger mouth than all my other dogs combined ...although my GSD puppy is definitely trying to give him a run for his money. Anyway, just another observation.


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Dave Colborn said:


> Oh Alice. We are just talking. What the hell, anyway....


What the hell anyway? Are you seriously asking me that Dave? You have jumped from one conclusion/assumption to another on this topic and they are getting incrementaly worse and worse the more you speak!

Why in gods name should I explain or say anything? You seem to have a firm grasp on my dog, its training, its character, its expected behaviour and the final outcome...

Funny thing is tho? You kept our conversation in DM until Ariel decided to post her views and then you felt justified to speak your part on the hows and what of how my dog is trained, why didn't you speak up on this topic before that? Did you need some form of backup? As in DM's I stick to what I have said all along. I know this dog, you do not. I know what he is capable of what he can handle and I know what the outcome will be at the end of his training... You do not! You base everything on assumptions and skewered ideas of what you think you know and see in the videos. Beaten out? FFS! He wanted to bite the handler? FFS DAVE!!! If you are going to make assumptions then atleast know what you are talking about instead of just making random statements that have no bases at all.

Am I pissed off right now? You bet I am! I have always enjoyed our conversations in the past but now you are just reaching and stretching in order to get your points to be seen as truth. I do not mind you or anyone else to have an opinion, even if its not an opinion I share, it makes for good conversation but to start implying things as if they were set in stone? And you wonder why I do not want to reply to your posts.... ](*,)](*,)](*,)


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Ariel Peldunas said:


> Bob ...do you think it could just be the terriers are inherently more vocal? I have noticed that trend and have seen terriers that aren't showing any other signs of being defensive or stressed except for growling. My terrier growls when he's playing with a toy by himself and he's got a bigger mouth than all my other dogs combined ...although my GSD puppy is definitely trying to give him a run for his money. Anyway, just another observation.



For sure a possibility although I don't allow a lot of noise in the house. All my terriers were house dogs, earth dogs or not. 
I also have seen most of mine that growled and shook whatever they may be playing with. That's a big cue (to me) that the growling and shaking isn't necessarily stress. 
I haven't seen to many things that could actually stress a good terrier. I've always said if you look hard enough you'll find a "No fear" natural birthmark somewhere on most of the little bassids :-o :wink:. 
You guys still have the Patterdales? Nuckin futs I tell ya! Gotta love it!
I suspect it will be a terrier for my last dog when the GSDs are gone. Of course my lovely wife says I'm nucking futs too. :grin:


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

You have to ask if you are pissed because I might be right. Or you are frustrated because you can't spell out your answer and get me to understand. Or you are frustrated because I should see it your way without so much prompting. Then we can move forward. Otherwise probably not.

I actually said similar things in PM, and you agreed that some of it had merit but that you weren't likely to change, as in PM I see some of your training having merit (and still do). Then the thread died. It's back now. All I ever state is my opinion, as that is all anyone does here. I can be as wrong as I could possibly be, but if you can't explain to me why that is, what value does it have for me or anyone else? 

You have explained why you choose not to answer questions and to that I say:

NOTHING I SAY IS SET IN STONE. NO MATTER WHAT. That is the truth. It's opinion. Keep yours, just explain it if you can, or say you can't.


_So, again....Oh Alice. We are just talking. What the hell, anyway....







_


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Ariel Peldunas said:


> Bob ...do you think it could just be the terriers are inherently more vocal? I have noticed that trend and have seen terriers that aren't showing any other signs of being defensive or stressed except for growling. My terrier growls when he's playing with a toy by himself and he's got a bigger mouth than all my other dogs combined ...although my GSD puppy is definitely trying to give him a run for his money. Anyway, just another observation.


Now the growl is breed specific? [-X


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Alice Bezemer said:


> What the hell anyway? Are you seriously asking me that Dave? You have jumped from one conclusion/assumption to another on this topic and they are getting incrementaly worse and worse the more you speak!
> 
> Why in gods name should I explain or say anything? You seem to have a firm grasp on my dog, its training, its character, its expected behaviour and the final outcome...
> 
> ...


She does make a point here..
No reason to get pissed over a dog forum..


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Bob. We'd have to know a lot about the dog to know what motivates him to go down the hole. But I would guess if he's running/crawling down the hole, something about it he likes. 

So on that note can a dog enjoy fighting?* If he is presented with threat and his three choices are fight, flight or displace, can he immediately go to fight? I think so, but highly unlikely to stay that way if he loses repeatedly.*

The best way to keep a dog in the fight, and focus all his energy to his adversary is the question. 

Do you throw your pups down a hole at 6 months old with a bigger adversary, commonly? Or do you control his environment to set him up for a win?


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Timothy Saunders said:


> while people on this thread my disagree about when you should stress your dog , they know it is necessary.
> 
> *Well said. Very clear. I agree.*


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

*Never said I can not explain. I just do not want to at this point since I see no use in furthering more speculation and assumption. I have always been willing to explain everything but not when it leads to people stating opinion as if it were fact rather then opinion. *




Dave Colborn said:


> You have to ask if you are pissed because I might be right. Or you are frustrated because you can't spell out your answer and get me to understand. Or you are frustrated because I should see it your way without so much prompting. Then we can move forward. Otherwise probably not.
> 
> I actually said similar things in PM, and you agreed that some of it had merit but that you weren't likely to change, as in PM I see some of your training having merit (and still do). Then the thread died. It's back now. All I ever state is my opinion, as that is all anyone does here. I can be as wrong as I could possibly be, but if you can't explain to me why that is, what value does it have for me or anyone else?
> 
> ...


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Alice.

I understand where you are coming from.

I will make it a long term goal to come see you train at some point. I think you know I'd truly enjoy it, and I am sure I would learn quite a bit about the biting behaviors of dogs as you train it.

I certainly didn't mean to piss you off (but I can see how I did, reading back) as I would value an invitation and wish I could have stopped by the last time I came through. 

I wish you all the success in the world with Robbie II and look forward to seeing his progression.





Alice Bezemer said:


> *Never said I can not explain. I just do not want to at this point since I see no use in furthering more speculation and assumption. I have always been willing to explain everything but not when it leads to people stating opinion as if it were fact rather then opinion. *


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Ariel Peldunas said:


> Bob ...do you think it could just be the terriers are inherently more vocal? I have noticed that trend and have seen terriers that aren't showing any other signs of being defensive or stressed except for growling. My terrier growls when he's playing with a toy by himself and he's got a bigger mouth than all my other dogs combined ...although my GSD puppy is definitely trying to give him a run for his money. Anyway, just another observation.


I think that certain dogs are inherently more vocal, regardless of there breed "type"...


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## Ariel Peldunas (Oct 18, 2008)

Chris McDonald said:


> Now the growl is breed specific? [-X



Chris, how many terriers have you owned and worked with or watched work in protection? I'm basing my comment on experiences and observations. I have seen more good growly/vocal terriers than I have herders. Typically, when I have observed a herder vocalizing a lot on the bite or tug, there are other signals showing me they are not terribly comfortable. What are you basing yours on?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

I think that people like what they like, and we all like to see things a certain way, and we can easily form opinions on things we see in a dog, and that those opinions may be re-enforced and made into conclusions about certain things.

I think that our opinions and conclusions work for us, and become more cemented as they are re-affirmed by subsequent outcomes. 

I also think dogs are all different, and many do not fit into our pre-conceived notions of the "whys" that we place on their behaviors, there are some dogs that do not fit our accepted molds we try to stuff them into, and sometimes our theories and conclusions may not fit certain dogs or certain behaviors.


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

Dave Colborn said:


> Alice.
> 
> I understand where you are coming from.
> 
> ...



Dave, 

What kind of dogs do you have and what venue do you train them in? 

Thanks


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

Tiago Fontes said:


> Dave,
> 
> What kind of dogs do you have and what venue do you train them in?
> 
> Thanks



Please disregard my post above. Just noticed you have a boxer. 


Take care


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Do you have any dogs, now that you've asked me? Do you train?





Tiago Fontes said:


> Please disregard my post above. Just noticed you have a boxer.
> 
> 
> Take care


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

Dave Colborn said:


> Do you have any dogs, now that you've asked me? Do you train?


Yes, sir. I have GSD's and mondioring is my sport. 


Regards


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## Timothy Saunders (Mar 12, 2009)

I know Alice doesn't need defending but I'm doing it anyway. The reason 
Alice posted the video is because people asked. People wanted training video to help with there learning about dogs and training.

The video was not put up so she could get help training her dog. So when people want to see if they can change her opinion on her dog or her style of training of course she is upset. She has a resume that say her style of training works for her. 

Lastly don't recall anyone here putting up video of their own dogs in training that could be seen as crappy. Or a video that says my dog has this problem and this is how I fix it.


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## Ariel Peldunas (Oct 18, 2008)

Timothy Saunders said:


> I know Alice doesn't need defending but I'm doing it anyway. The reason
> Alice posted the video is because people asked. People wanted training video to help with there learning about dogs and training.
> 
> The video was not put up so she could get help training her dog. So when people want to see if they can change her opinion on her dog or her style of training of course she is upset. She has a resume that say her style of training works for her.
> ...


Perhaps those same people that want to learn more about training might appreciate a different perspective? And I have posted videos of my dog and my training on this forum a number of times. I can post again if you'd like and critique myself and my own dogs if that would be beneficial to the conversation. There's always room for improvement, I believe. I never assume what I'm doing is 100% correct and the best or only way to do things. There's a lot I've yet to learn or try.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

I personally would not like to see as much of that type of behavior if it was my personal dog, although I dont see it as a big problem as some people might at all, and certainly am not passing any judgement here on the dog or the training being done....

general questions for anyone...

watching the videos, what would you do differently, specifically as the helper or as the handler if working on the same things, with the same dog?


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Dave Colborn said:


> Bob. We'd have to know a lot about the dog to know what motivates him to go down the hole. But I would guess if he's running/crawling down the hole, something about it he likes.
> 
> So on that note can a dog enjoy fighting?* If he is presented with threat and his three choices are fight, flight or displace, can he immediately go to fight? I think so, but highly unlikely to stay that way if he loses repeatedly.*
> 
> ...



!00% agree that some like the fight. That's the reason I went to JRTs and away from the Border terriers. The Borders are slow to start but no backing away when they mature. Aside from the ethics of it (my reason) it can also be a matter of the dog laying up to heal rather then hunting on a regular basis.
I hunted my JRT almost on a daily basis one season and he was one hell of a bolting/baying dog that never took a bite. 
Both My borders were deadly in the ground but took way to much punishment. Never had one quit but I stapled my up to often and didn't see the sense in that. Again, it was the ethical thing to do for me. 
I' have see some folks that entered a 6 month old pup at 6-7 month and "got rid of any pup that backed out. Way to cold for me. No better then dog fighting. 
In starting a new pup we often dug to another dog then pulled the dog our, put a barrier in the hole and let the young dog see the fox, ****, whatever. 
It's hard to decide which will engage until they are old enough to actually go to ground. Until they are actually in that dark hole you can't really say what will happen. Like a good dog in protection training. Until they actually have a live bite it's nothing more then an educated guess.That's an individual dog thing as much as it is a breed thing. NOBODY I hunted with wanted a dog that would get itself tore up no matter how good a hunter. Personal choices!

Chris Mc, Yes! It absolutely is a breed thing. I commented that my house terriers weren't allowed to make a lot of noise. That doesn't mean it's an easy thing to do but the litte bassids would go off on someone walking down the street a block before the GSDs even noticed. I've always said that the best combo for home guarding is a noisy little bassid to fire up the serious guardians. It works. Believe me! 
Most bad guys may want to walk through a little terrier. If they hesitate at all they're gonna get bit with a mouth full of teeth that belong in a dog a LOT bigger then the terrier using them and the attitude of a street fighter. Fast and dirty! 
I can stop my GSDs from barking with a simple "Quit" or even just pointing my index finger at then with a bit of stink eye behind it. The terriers would stop barking but it didn't stop the little bassids from pacing and growling till whatever excited them went away. 
I can also say that the Border terriers, while as serious as a heart attack on quarry are the most super soft terrier breed with people. They can be destroyed with words alone. 

Think about it being a breed thing. I mentioned before that a quiet terrier in the ground was useless back before the locator collars. You walked around with an iron bar, put it to the ground and listend to the vibration and bark of the dog to locate it. Exactly the same way the old time mechanics could locate a bad valve, rocker arm, etc in a car engine. 
You don't teach a terrier to bark in the ground. Fact is you don't do much teaching at all. It's hard wired into the little bassids. 
Even in the show ring ( I finished 4 different terrier breeds to 5 different CH titles) the judge wants to see attitude. Without that most terrier breeds will never get a CH in the show ring. That's what keeps even a lot of the show terriers very "on their toes" as the judges say. Even when I showed in the 80s into the 90s some of the judges would still face off the dogs to see that attitude. No contact but they wanted them "on their toes. They didn't do this with the bull breeds or the Border terriers for the obvious reasn with the bullys and because the Border was traditionally kenneled with the hounds and dog aggression in a pack of 60 lb hounds wouldn't be a wise thing for a 12-14 lb dog.


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Ariel Peldunas said:


> Perhaps those same people that want to learn more about training might appreciate a different perspective? And I have posted videos of my dog and my training on this forum a number of times. I can post again if you'd like and critique myself and my own dogs if that would be beneficial to the conversation. There's always room for improvement, I believe. I never assume what I'm doing is 100% correct and the best or only way to do things. There's a lot I've yet to learn or try.


A different persepective and opinion are always welcome but it has to be based on something other then speculation or assumption. 

Tell me this? How many KNPV dogs have you owned, trained and trialed in KNPV? How long have you been practicing KNPV training and how do you train your dogs the KNPV exercises? How many KNPV trialed and trained dogs have you sold into LE/MIL? How long and often have you done any KNPV Decoying? Which KNPV club do you train at? I would like to visit one day and see how I should be training my dogs as opposed to how I actually train my dogs. 

The point I am trying to make here is this Ariel... I could reply to Bobs post about the JRT's and start telling him what's wrong with his dogs, how he should change and what he is doing wrong. I can make bold statements of my opinion and present them to him as fact simply because I feel I am right about what I think I see. I could comment on posts about Schutzhund or Mondio and make bold assumptions on what happens or is being talked about or shown on video because of my knowledge of KNPV... Thing is tho, I refuse to because that is my background... KNPV. I know about KNPV, about the dogs, the trials, the decoying, the programme, the behaviours shown and how to deal with them. For me to make assumptions about other sports or venues would be plain stupid because I have not one iota of a clue on what they are trying to accomplish with their dogs so why would I sit there and judge people on what they are doing if I do not have the first clue about their training plan and ideas?


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## Ariel Peldunas (Oct 18, 2008)

Alice Bezemer said:


> A different persepective and opinion are always welcome but it has to be based on something other then speculation or assumption.
> 
> Tell me this? How many KNPV dogs have you owned, trained and trialed in KNPV? How long have you been practicing KNPV training and how do you train your dogs the KNPV exercises? How many KNPV trialed and trained dogs have you sold into LE/MIL? How long and often have you done any KNPV Decoying? Which KNPV club do you train at? I would like to visit one day and see how I should be training my dogs as opposed to how I actually train my dogs.
> 
> The point I am trying to make here is this Ariel... I could reply to Bobs post about the JRT's and start telling him what's wrong with his dogs, how he should change and what he is doing wrong. I can make bold statements of my opinion and present them to him as fact simply because I feel I am right about what I think I see. I could comment on posts about Schutzhund or Mondio and make bold assumptions on what happens or is being talked about or shown on video because of my knowledge of KNPV... Thing is tho, I refuse to because that is my background... KNPV. I know about KNPV, about the dogs, the trials, the decoying, the programme, the behaviours shown and how to deal with them. For me to make assumptions about other sports or venues would be plain stupid because I have not one iota of a clue on what they are trying to accomplish with their dogs so why would I sit there and judge people on what they are doing if I do not have the first clue about their training plan and ideas?


Alice ...I get that you're offended and upset that I voiced my opinion and it did not mirror yours. It's funny to me, though, that everyone else who said your dog looked great were justified in making their observations based on the videos you posted. But I disagree and I'm wrong? 

You know I've never trained a dog for KNPV. But does the fact that you're training for KNPV and not the venues I've trained in change what the dog is conveying through his body language and vocalizations? If you like what you see and the results you're getting, keep doing what you're doing. But don't try to inply that just because I've not trained in KNPV I can't possibly read behaviors in a dog.


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## Timothy Saunders (Mar 12, 2009)

Ariel Peldunas said:


> Perhaps those same people that want to learn more about training might appreciate a different perspective? And I have posted videos of my dog and my training on this forum a number of times. I can post again if you'd like and critique myself and my own dogs if that would be beneficial to the conversation. There's always room for improvement, I believe. I never assume what I'm doing is 100% correct and the best or only way to do things. There's a lot I've yet to learn or try.


Yes I agree with that sentiment. I have seen ur videos and thought the work was good as well as the pups looking promising. I think like every trainer ur results tells u if u are right. Lastly u live with a guy who always says that he is not a trainer( but knows an awful lot about it). I'm quite sure he could give u any critiques u need. Thank u anyway


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Ariel Peldunas said:


> Chris, how many terriers have you owned and worked with or watched work in protection? I'm basing my comment on experiences and observations. I have seen more good growly/vocal terriers than I have herders. Typically, when I have observed a herder vocalizing a lot on the bite or tug, there are other signals showing me they are not terribly comfortable. What are you basing yours on?


 
I don’t think you understand, Im ok with the dog not being terribly comfortable once in a while.


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Bob Scott;
Chris Mc said:


> I didn’t do a good job there. My little boarder certainly makes a bunch more noise than my other dogs. [/SIZE]
> What I got to say about that will take way more typing than I got in me.. In short I should im not buying the whole vocals are bad for a shepherd thing. I have heard it before but not buying it
> This forum and your input are what lead me to getting a Boarder. She is working well out well.


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## Timothy Saunders (Mar 12, 2009)

Ariel, I have a question. Is it possible that the behavior we are seeing is Defense? We all agree the dog is not working in prey. 

The reason I'm asking is because while I haven't worked a lot of terriers, I have worked a lot of bandogs, pits and mastiffs. I could show you a 1,000 videos of dogs that show the exact behavior and are not uncomfortable at all. They never come out of the grip and if you make a mistake your -ss is grass.


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## Ariel Peldunas (Oct 18, 2008)

Timothy Saunders said:


> Ariel, I have a question. Is it possible that the behavior we are seeing is Defense? We all agree the dog is not working in prey.
> 
> The reason I'm asking is because while I haven't worked a lot of terriers, I have worked a lot of bandogs, pits and mastiffs. I could show you a 1,000 videos of dogs that show the exact behavior and are not uncomfortable at all. They never come out of the grip and if you make a mistake your -ss is grass.


Sure, I think the argument can be made that he's working in defense and that's why he's vocalizing. I think he has plenty of prey drive, but clearly defense is playing a part. However, I believe what he's showing, not only in the vocalizations, but also in his body language, suggest that he's not comfortable with the pressure and stress he's feeling. And I do understand what a number of people have said ...that the dog needs to learn to deal with being uncomfortable and needs to understand that bringing more aggression makes the pressure go away. I just think so early on in his training and before he's matured very much, it's not something I would be doing or like to see.

By the way, I don't live with that guy who says he's not a trainer anymore. I'm still training with people who are plenty knowledgeable, but I just thought that should be cleared up.


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## Ariel Peldunas (Oct 18, 2008)

Chris McDonald said:


> I don’t think you understand, Im ok with the dog not being terribly comfortable once in a while.


I understand. And I am fine with that as well. But I would not be comfortable with so much of that in such a young dog ...just my preference and opinion, though.


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## Zakia Days (Mar 13, 2009)

I think you may be hearing the sound of hoofs beating in the forest, but you're looking for zebras instead of horses. I'm with everyone else. While I'm not fond of the stress and vocalization the dog seems fine to me. Please take another look at the video and observe the body language and what must be done to get the dog into the grip and keep him there. He drags into the grip EVERY SINGLE TIME. His tail is wagging and his body is mostly relaxed (not tense, tail is not tucked under the body, he is not FORCED into the bite). He pushes with his feet a bit and growls. That's okay. If you've only worked with character of dogs you've mentioned, then there's a whole lot more "style/kind" of dog you should probably be introduced to. My female, who is now 7 yrs old started out the same way. Very vocal on the bite, scooting and pulling. She NEVER ran off the bite. She ALWAYS ran to it. She is a defensive dog with a very strong civil side. She has always had forward aggression and addresses EVERYTHING head on. I chummed it up to her not being particularly fond of the body contact at that age. She wasn't sure of it. She scooted and pulled a bit at first. She didn't like being touched. Around 2.5 years, or younger, that all went away. At three years of age (full maturity) she could've cared less. She's had live bites (not purposeful of course). She barks at noises and/or people like Bob's terriers, I'm sure. She probably would have made an awesome patrol dog. From what I understand one of her brothers was/is a favored patrol dog in (Arizona?), somewhere out west. Nerves of steel with a bite first ask questions later attitude. Trust us, you are able to read that there is stress in the dog. No one is doubting that. But, you're missing all the IMPORTANT things. Like that he grips every single time. That he is not afraid, just a bit unsure on how to take things. He will mature and develop just fine. At least in my personal experience with this type of young dog.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I'm splitting hairs here of course but his tail is "whipping" not "wagging". There is, however, a vast difference between wagging and whipping.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

I just logged on here for the first time in a while and noticed this thread with 312 comments so I thought I'd check it out. 
Anyone who knows me knows I hate to read, so I obviously didnt go back and read the comments, but I did watch the latest video of the dog. 
It looks like a nice high drive puppy with a good grip. Having said that, I dont need to see much to know that for sure that dog is not comfortable in that video. Maybe it is from the pressure of the handler teaching the out early, maybe from something else. I can not tell what causes the stress I see here, but for sure I see stress coming from somewhere. I went back and watched another video of the puppy from a little while back and I see the same thing. I think this dog will be a nice dog as an adult, but at the moment in the videos I have seen, he shows me behavior and body language that I myself dont like to see in a dog at any age. 
It will be interesting to see him when he is a 3 year old dog.
I recently had a 4 old year PH1 male son from Berry II that acted the same way on the suit. He had a nice full grip, but he was very vocal and acted aggressive. When I put any real physical pressue on him he would fall apart in the bitework, even though he had a very nice Ph 1 score, 434 I think maybe? 
I think Berry II is an excellent producer, but that one that I had didnt have what I like to see in a police dog. I currently have a 17 month old Berry II son that is totally quiet on the bite, and he will take anything I can throw at him in the bitework and never make a sound, never shift his grip, never show any signs of stress, etc. 
I like the drive of this Robbie II pup, and I like his grip, and I like the way he looks physically for his age. The attitude is also nice for me to see, but the vocal stress on the suit for me is something I dont like at all. Just my opinion.....


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

mike suttle said:


> I just logged on here for the first time in a while and noticed this thread with 312 comments so I thought I'd check it out.
> Anyone who knows me knows I hate to read, so I obviously didnt go back and read the comments, but I did watch the latest video of the dog.
> It looks like a nice high drive puppy with a good grip. Having said that, I dont need to see much to know that for sure that dog is not comfortable in that video. Maybe it is from the pressure of the handler teaching the out early, maybe from something else. I can not tell what causes the stress I see here, but for sure I see stress coming from somewhere. I went back and watched another video of the puppy from a little while back and I see the same thing. I think this dog will be a nice dog as an adult, but at the moment in the videos I have seen, he shows me behavior and body language that I myself dont like to see in a dog at any age.
> It will be interesting to see him when he is a 3 year old dog.
> ...


His brother Robbie was just as vocal at that age and at 12 months he didn't give a sound anymore. I agree, some comes out of stress, in this case the out that is coming his way and the annoying idiot that is touching his body is something he doesn't like but he will just have to deal with it and will grow out of it. Robbie2 wants things more his way then his older brother did. Some dogs are vocal as pups and some are not, its not something that worries me at all since I have seen 99 percent (the ones that I or hubby trained) grow out of it with the training they got. Most vocalisation is due to things being new and as they get used to what ever is happening it subsides pretty quickly. I will say this tho? He might be vocal but its only partly stress and there is a large part of anger in it from his side. I hope and expect that he will turn in to just as fine a dog as his older brother Robbie who is now in service of the Dutch police. I can not help but boast about his older brother tho, he is one fine dog that I am actually regretting having sold... The feedback I have had on him is amazing, he is doing an excellent job, has had live bites and has made quite the impression on the handlers there since he will be there when needed but is just as relaxed when they take him home.

Just to boast some more I am going to post his video of bitework when he was a year old and his trial video... his year old bitework shows he was vocal but at a minimal as to where 6 months before he sounded pretty much like Robbie II. 

1 year old, Bitework training Robbie 1 http://youtu.be/WaS_bZqaByo

Trial bitework Robbie 1, july 2013

http://youtu.be/0HzdSyARhTs


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Our pup, Darach Randegger Schloss, as a pup, had his hair up on his back and always growled during bitework.

Our helper, his breeder, had not experienced this before and just asked me to check him out.

I found nothing and as he proceeded in bitework, it was felt that he took after his grandmother, Lana Randegger Schloss who came 4th in the BSP and no more vocals and hair rising took place.

Out on the field, watching numerous pups / dogs is recommended.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Gillian Schuler said:


> Out on the field, watching numerous pups / dogs is recommended.


huh?


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> huh?


huh???

not just reading Internet - out on the field watching.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Alice Bezemer said:


> His brother Robbie was just as vocal at that age and at 12 months he didn't give a sound anymore. I agree, some comes out of stress, in this case the out that is coming his way and the annoying idiot that is touching his body is something he doesn't like but he will just have to deal with it and will grow out of it. Robbie2 wants things more his way then his older brother did. Some dogs are vocal as pups and some are not, its not something that worries me at all since I have seen 99 percent (the ones that I or hubby trained) grow out of it with the training they got. Most vocalisation is due to things being new and as they get used to what ever is happening it subsides pretty quickly. I will say this tho? He might be vocal but its only partly stress and there is a large part of anger in it from his side. I hope and expect that he will turn in to just as fine a dog as his older brother Robbie who is now in service of the Dutch police. I can not help but boast about his older brother tho, he is one fine dog that I am actually regretting having sold... The feedback I have had on him is amazing, he is doing an excellent job, has had live bites and has made quite the impression on the handlers there since he will be there when needed but is just as relaxed when they take him home.
> 
> Just to boast some more I am going to post his video of bitework when he was a year old and his trial video... his year old bitework shows he was vocal but at a minimal as to where 6 months before he sounded pretty much like Robbie II.
> 
> ...


Ok, thanks for your reply. He is about 7 months old now, it will be interesting to see if all of that behavior is gone in another 5 months. I suspect it wont be, but maybe I am totally wrong. Either way, I wish you sucess with this dog, hopefully he turns out to be just what you want.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Gillian Schuler said:


> huh???
> 
> not just reading Internet - out on the field watching.


AH... 
gotcha, I think working lots of dogs *off *of the field would be far better


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> AH...
> gotcha, I think working lots of dogs *off *of the field would be far better


 
Please explain -* our* training hours are based on the field, be it tracking, obedience or protection work.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Gillian Schuler said:


> Please explain -* our* training hours are based on the field, be it tracking, obedience or protection work.


I wont speak for Joby here, but what happens on the training field in most cases is to prepare a dog for a trial. That is important for sure, but it is the work that takes place off the field that matters the most to me. In other words, it is the work in the dark bathrooms in the loud factory, or the work that happens in a shoot house with helicopters hovering overhead, or the work that takes place off site with no other witnesses to complain about how much pressure you are putting on a dog.
I have seen many dogs with high scores in a trial who spent hundreds of hours on a trianing field, but they fell apart time and time again when they encountered real physical and personal pressure from me.
I dont discount the value of the training that takes place during club days on the field, but for sure that is not the same training that prepares the dog for me, or tests the dogs real heart.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I only train sport dogs, IPO, mostly. However, I have many colleagues who train police and army dogs. and Mondio.

However, I am truly fed up of people assuming that I know what they are training, uttering bitchy remarks. Why couldn't Joby Becker say he trained in the police force or what.

There is far too much aggression in the trainers on here - better it would be in the dogs.


Have fun all of you, maybe things will better in a few months.


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## Timothy Saunders (Mar 12, 2009)

Gillian Schuler said:


> I'm splitting hairs here of course but his tail is "whipping" not "wagging". There is, however, a vast difference between wagging and whipping.


could you tell me the difference? I have not heard this before. thanks


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Tail wagging is "Hi folks, everything in the world is ok". "Nice to meet you"!

Tail "whipping" *for me *could be tension, aggression, awareness of threat, etc. There is a marked difference in the way the tail moves. Whipping is usually, straight out and quick moves. Tail wagging is higher and slower.

I am not an expert but actually it is easy to see.

The way to a dog's momentary emotions is often seeable by his tail, i.e. tucked between his legs, fear. 

Straight up, neither wagging nor whipping "I've seen you but the bitch won't let me act" (of course I am the bitch!!).


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Some dogs, especially Retrievers, Labradors, etc, whip their tails when they are on a trail which is a help to know they are on the track. There may be others that do this?


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## David Winners (Apr 4, 2012)

Lots of dogs, some GSDs and Mals included, have a very different tail wag when on odor. Whip could definitely describe the motion of some.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Tiago Fontes said:


> Have you ever seen "you wont ever try that crap with me again" directed at the dog?


Yes and after the handler's second reconstructive surgery he decided to sell the dog.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Christopher Smith said:


> Yes and after the handler's second reconstructive surgery he decided to sell the dog.


 
Train them to bite and sometimes they do. Sucks for the handler for sure.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Dave Colborn said:


> Train them to bite and sometimes they do. Sucks for the handler for sure.


It sucks worse for the dog. He's the one that was mis-trained and then punished for doing what he was trained, inadvertently, to do. Then suffered through months of F'd-up "retraining", only to end up bounced around from handler to handler and finally rotting away in the back of some idiot's kennel. I don't give a crap about that handler. As far as I'm concerned he got the better end of the deal.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Good point.



Christopher Smith said:


> It sucks worse for the dog. He's the one that was mis-trained and then punished for doing what he was trained, inadvertently, to do. Then suffered through months of F'd-up "retraining", only to end up bounced around from handler to handler and finally rotting away in the back of some idiot's kennel. I don't give a crap about that handler. As far as I'm concerned he got the better end of the deal.


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Ariel Peldunas said:


> Alice ...I get that you're offended and upset that I voiced my opinion and it did not mirror yours. It's funny to me, though, that everyone else who said your dog looked great were justified in making their observations based on the videos you posted. But I disagree and I'm wrong?
> 
> You know I've never trained a dog for KNPV. But does the fact that you're training for KNPV and not the venues I've trained in change what the dog is conveying through his body language and vocalizations? If you like what you see and the results you're getting, keep doing what you're doing. But don't try to inply that just because I've not trained in KNPV I can't possibly read behaviors in a dog.


I totally missed your post...

I never implied anything of the sort, I did imply however that since you have no background in the sports that you can't possibly comprehend what you are seeing or why certain things are happening and to base judgements upon that lack of knowledge to begin with is pretty much useless.

As for my agreeing with people who like my video's? To be honest I could not care less if they liked them since I am not posting them to be liked or for people to praise me on... I post them because I got asked to post them so people could get an idea of what it is we (hubby and myself) do and how we try to accomplish that particular goal. 

People will either agree or disagree with the way we train but thats okay since everyone has another route that leads to Rome. People will like or dislike what they see in the dogs in the video's but thats okay as well, not everyone has the same taste in dog and not everyone is willing to tackle the more challenging cases as to where others might want nothing else then the dog that challenges you constantly. I am a person that looks at a dog and work with what he shows me. I do not look to far ahead because everything I do today can change how he works tomorrow. I do not train with the future in my mind since I can not say how he will turn out in future... I have a pretty good idea of what he will become but nothing is set in stone and things evolve and change every day...

I also don't train my dog in a way to prevent him from making certain mistakes in the future, it serves no purpose since the things I might want to avoid might never happen and me training to prevent them anyway might switch a light on in him that should have better been left turned off...

Anyways.... I see things in a different light then you do. I don't hold back knowing the dog is strong enough, you believe differently, more power to you... Stick to what you believe and I will stick to what I know is right and works for this particular dog.


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Almost 8 months old today and ready to hit the training field.


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

Alice Bezemer said:


> Almost 8 months old today and ready to hit the training field.



Looks nice... 

More videos, please.


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Am probably going to regret this but hey... I'm a sucker for punishment so let the good times roll! :lol:

http://youtu.be/qgToIeBgrfA


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## jamie lind (Feb 19, 2009)

Is it just me or does he have some gsd in him?


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## Timothy Saunders (Mar 12, 2009)

He looks good and u got that out. So I guess the good times are rolling.


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## Timothy Saunders (Mar 12, 2009)

jamie lind said:


> Is it just me or does he have some gsd in him?


It's just u


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

jamie lind said:


> Is it just me or does he have some gsd in him?


top of ped goes back to Lion, yet another dog that goes back to Lion, that to ME shows some GSD'ish looks.. 

IF you can believe the pedigrees, there is a small % of GSD. 

didnt check the bottom, but might go back there too... on paper...


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Bottom goes back to Lion as well, at least once through Iwan, probably both go back that way via more than one way.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Alice Bezemer said:


> Am probably going to regret this but hey... I'm a sucker for punishment so let the good times roll! :lol:
> 
> http://youtu.be/qgToIeBgrfA


thanks for sharing


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Nice looking dog and I liked his bite work.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Alice Bezemer said:


> Am probably going to regret this but hey... I'm a sucker for punishment so let the good times roll! :lol:
> 
> http://youtu.be/qgToIeBgrfA



Well, I'd like to know the goals of this session--and what you were working on. Also, is this the next session after the last video posted or were there more sessions between the two? This is NOT for critique and feel free to PM.

Thanks.

T


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Well, I'd like to know the goals of this session--and what you were working on. Also, is this the next session after the last video posted or were there more sessions between the two? This is NOT for critique and feel free to PM.
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> T


I know its not for critique 

Had 1 bite session 2 weeks ago but that was at night so I didn't video it. Pretty much the same as this bite session but more aimed at OB to check his out then bitework. His bite is good and needs no work so the bitework is more about placement and OB then anything else.

This session was about placement and we decided to send him a short distance to see if he was going to go to his "spot" on the arm as we expected him to do. He did! :lol: We also wanted to see what sort of attack he would make, would he launch or would he come in low. He seems to favor the launch so we will have to see if that needs work since we are not big fans of a dog that launches from far away. He only went up for maybe 3 to 4 feet but I expect with more speed and space between him and the decoy the lauch will become longer and more noticable. We also wanted to try the bite on the back of the arm since the rules for PH1 will be changing to a bite on the back of the arm for the throw attack. It used to be that the dog was allowed to bite on the leg but with the new rules he has to bite the back of the arm so we tried that bite out for size to see how he did and he did well enough. Leg bite again was for placement and OB purposes... We are working on OB mostly since he has quite the will to him and tends to push for his way. Bitework will be sparse since he does good in that department so OB and slowly moving to new exercises to expand on the things that he has partly learned up till now like the B&H and Box Search, transport of decoy, small article search, heeling, long down, object guard (no biting yet since his long down isn't what it should be right now.) Next week we will be adding on to this with the jumps for the high jump, low jump and the width jump and if the weather stays like it is in the next few weeks we will be starting the swimming exercises as well.


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

Alice Bezemer said:


> Am probably going to regret this but hey... I'm a sucker for punishment so let the good times roll! :lol:
> 
> http://youtu.be/qgToIeBgrfA



Love it. Thanks!

Keep posting, Alice...


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Hey Alice - I bet there is a couple of people on this thread you would like to tell to go fuk themselves!:smile::smile::smile:


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Lee H Sternberg said:


> Hey Alice - I bet there is a couple of people on this thread you would like to tell to go fuk themselves!:smile::smile::smile:


Not reached that level...... YET :lol:


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Alice Bezemer said:


> Not reached that level...... YET :lol:



"Yet."


Ruh-roh.


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Connie Sutherland said:


> "Yet."
> 
> 
> Ruh-roh.


I would never be so crude as speak such words... tis nae in my nature to use such harsh language! 

I prefer to keep the language more civil when I finaly reach that special place where the words can no longer be denied...

"Go forth and fornicateth thine self."

Its just good manners and there is never a need to be rude in ones wording.

(Must go and sit in a corner now and hope that I dunnae get struck by lightening :lol: )


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Alice Bezemer said:


> I would never be so crude as speak such words... tis nae in my nature to use such harsh language!
> 
> I prefer to keep the language more civil when I finaly reach that special place where the words can no longer be denied...
> 
> ...


I've never been accused of having good manners!](*,)

Accused of being rude a time or two! LOL


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## Timothy Saunders (Mar 12, 2009)

Hey Alice how much do you think he weighs?


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Timothy Saunders said:


> Hey Alice how much do you think he weighs?


Last vet check he was 31 kilo.


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## jamie lind (Feb 19, 2009)

Alice Bezemer said:


> Am probably going to regret this but hey... I'm a sucker for punishment so let the good times roll! :lol:
> 
> http://youtu.be/qgToIeBgrfA


How many dogs are in your club. I see quite a few tied out on the fence. I'm sure there are a lot more resting in the cars. Seems like a nice sized club.


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

jamie lind said:


> How many dogs are in your club. I see quite a few tied out on the fence. I'm sure there are a lot more resting in the cars. Seems like a nice sized club.


Right now there are 10 pups (age from 4 to 12 months) and 6 adult dogs (18 to 30 months)


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

Alice Bezemer said:


> Right now there are 10 pups (age from 4 to 12 months) and 6 adult dogs (18 to 30 months)



I would have said more. Probably because it was a practice trial when I visited.


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Tiago Fontes said:


> I would have said more. Probably because it was a practice trial when I visited.


You visited during the fall trials in oktober. Only trial.dogs on the field that day. 3 of the trial.dogs belonged to the club.


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

Alice Bezemer said:


> You visited during the fall trials in oktober. Only trial.dogs on the field that day. 3 of the trial.dogs belonged to the club.


Yep. 

Also, some good coffee...


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Tiago Fontes said:


> Yep.
> 
> Also, some good coffee...


Good coffee from an annoyed and moody Alice! That day everyone was out to annoy me but when Jan asked me if I know who his guest was my mood improved considerably! 

Shame you couldn't visit longer or both trial days.... had some nice dogs on the field. You would have enjoyed seeing them. Better luck next time.


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

Alice Bezemer said:


> Good coffee from an annoyed and moody Alice! That day everyone was out to annoy me but when Jan asked me if I know who his guest was my mood improved considerably!
> 
> Shame you couldn't visit longer or both trial days.... had some nice dogs on the field. You would have enjoyed seeing them. Better luck next time.



You were probably bitch**g in dutch...so I really didnt understand anything! LOL

I'm probably returning at the end of this month, for a GSD practice trial. Trying to wrap all my work here, so I can leave for 2 or 3 days.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Alice Bezemer said:


> I know its not for critique
> 
> Had 1 bite session 2 weeks ago but that was at night so I didn't video it. Pretty much the same as this bite session but more aimed at OB to check his out then bitework. His bite is good and needs no work so the bitework is more about placement and OB then anything else.
> 
> This session was about placement and we decided to send him a short distance to see if he was going to go to his "spot" on the arm as we expected him to do. He did! :lol: We also wanted to see what sort of attack he would make, would he launch or would he come in low. He seems to favor the launch so we will have to see if that needs work since we are not big fans of a dog that launches from far away. He only went up for maybe 3 to 4 feet but I expect with more speed and space between him and the decoy the lauch will become longer and more noticable. We also wanted to try the bite on the back of the arm since the rules for PH1 will be changing to a bite on the back of the arm for the throw attack. It used to be that the dog was allowed to bite on the leg but with the new rules he has to bite the back of the arm so we tried that bite out for size to see how he did and he did well enough. Leg bite again was for placement and OB purposes... We are working on OB mostly since he has quite the will to him and tends to push for his way. Bitework will be sparse since he does good in that department so OB and slowly moving to new exercises to expand on the things that he has partly learned up till now like the B&H and Box Search, transport of decoy, small article search, heeling, long down, object guard (no biting yet since his long down isn't what it should be right now.) Next week we will be adding on to this with the jumps for the high jump, low jump and the width jump and if the weather stays like it is in the next few weeks we will be starting the swimming exercises as well.


Ahhhhhh, thanks. Looking forward to the next installment.

T


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Ariel Peldunas said:


> I'm really not trying to stir the pot ...but considering this forum is supposed to hold some educational value and facilitate discussion, has no one else noticed the stress that this pup is showing? I've watched each video of him that was posted and aside from the obvious stress you can hear in his vocalizations, I can see that he is trying very hard to get away from the decoy (feet on the decoy pushing himself away, back arched trying to put as much distance between himself and the decoy as possible and even looking like he is trying to go behind the decoy at times). I also noticed in one of the close up shots, his eyes are shifting ...to the handler, to the decoy, to the stick. I see a lot of very obvious signs that he is not comfortable and feeling stressed or conflicted. On the back of the leg, he definitely seems calmer and more comfortable, but in the front of the suit, he looks stressed.
> 
> I find it hard to believe that no one else saw this. *Maybe I missed comments about it somewhere else in the discussion*.


You did.



Matt Vandart said:


> He's cool, very determined pup, handles stress well


However I do not think this dog is going to 'do one' at any point. I can see where you are coming from in terms of why you are saying it and what you are saying. I am saying this dog can handle stress well and is doing so in this vid. I don't think Alice's approach will break THIS dog. It may be that it would do so to another dog.
I also think he looks like a jerk.
Jerk dog.... ;-)


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Matt Vandart said:


> You did.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ofcourse he looks like a jerk and he acts like it too but what else did you expect since he takes after his owner :lol:


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

lol,

I just watched the next vid, good stuff again. I tell thee, looking at the pics you posted and him in the vid, it is amazing how much this dog is like my Mal, Sali, in both build and movement, body language etc. He, like her, is a little beast  I really should look at his ped.
I know Sali is a jerk, i have to tell her every day


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Some bitework yesterday with Robbie II.

He's 8.5 months old now and developing as expected. His training is progressing quite quick and we are forced to remind ourselves he's still a youngster or we would push him to far. 

(Yes he is becoming less vocal as we expected from him :lol: )


http://youtu.be/inQ1TPtsY8c


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

Alice Bezemer said:


> Some bitework yesterday with Robbie II.
> 
> He's 8.5 months old now and developing as expected. His training is progressing quite quick and we are forced to remind ourselves he's still a youngster or we would push him to far.
> 
> ...



Very good, Alice. 

Thanks for posting.


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

Alice Bezemer said:


> Some bitework yesterday with Robbie II.
> 
> He's 8.5 months old now and developing as expected. His training is progressing quite quick and we are forced to remind ourselves he's still a youngster or we would push him to far.
> 
> ...


Alice you know what you should do, you should get a German Shepherd. They are so much prettier then those Dutch Shepherds. Hahahaha:lol:


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

If only Robbie was a Dutchie and not a Mali huh :lol:

I shall overlook your temporary lack of sanity and blaspheming this one time, Ben.... GSD indeed.... brrrrrrrrr.


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

Alice Bezemer said:


> I shall overlook your temporary lack of sanity and blaspheming this one time, Ben.... GSD indeed.... brrrrrrrrr.



Ahemmmmm...


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

:lol:

Aw c'mon Tiago... You know I have no great love for GSD's to begin with and you know if I were forced to get one which line I would pick. That should make up for the brrrrrrrrrr, right?

 




Tiago Fontes said:


> Ahemmmmm...


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

Alice Bezemer said:


> :lol:
> 
> Aw c'mon Tiago... You know I have no great love for GSD's to begin with and you know if I were forced to get one which line I would pick. That should make up for the brrrrrrrrrr, right?



After this post, I became less vocal... such as your dog. 

Perhaps my avoidance is decreasing? lolololol


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## Michael Murphy (Nov 27, 2010)

i wish i could train with alice


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

Michael Murphy said:


> i wish i could train with alice



No, you wouldnt. She'd take your head off. LOL


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Tiago Fontes said:


> After this post, I became less vocal... such as your dog.
> 
> Perhaps my avoidance is decreasing? lolololol


YOURS is increasing


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Tiago Fontes said:


> No, you wouldnt. She'd take your head off. LOL


I wouldn't take his head off but I'm pretty sure i'd staple his mouth shut so all he could do was look and listen and maybe even learn something instead of coming up with a constant barage of not so smart questions.


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

Alice Bezemer said:


> I wouldn't take his head off but I'm pretty sure i'd staple his mouth shut so all he could do was look and listen and maybe even learn something instead of coming up with a constant barage of not so smart questions.


I was trying to scare him away... Make you sound *even* meaner! lolol


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Alice Bezemer said:


> I wouldn't take his head off but I'm pretty sure i'd staple his mouth shut so all he could do was look and listen and maybe even learn something instead of coming up with a constant barage of not so smart questions.


As long as you are up on pedigrees, that is.
Plus remote control, command bunkers, and aggressive dogs.


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Robbie II, 11 months old last Saturday. Pictures taken at PHV Rotterdam Zuid.


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## Jay Quinn (Apr 1, 2012)

He is turning into a handsome little guy, Alice!


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Jay Quinn said:


> He is turning into a handsome little guy, Alice!


Thank you, Jay! He is quite the character and yup, still ornery as can be but he is a great dog to train and work with.


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

Alice Bezemer said:


> Robbie II, 11 months old last Saturday. Pictures taken at PHV Rotterdam Zuid.



Looks very good... I'll be there by the end of July, visiting some clubs and checking dogs. Perhaps I get to see Robbie II.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Alice what is your address, I'll send you this in case Tiago makes it to see you


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Joby Becker said:


> Alice what is your address, I'll send you this in case Tiago makes it to see you


Actually she would use it more if she ever meets Michael.


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

Alice you know what you ought to do.....enter Robbie in a conformation show breed him to a female with a roach back and sell the pups for 3 times what they should be worth. O


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

Joby Becker said:


> Alice what is your address, I'll send you this in case Tiago makes it to see you



When I met her last time, she offered me coffee! LOL 

I did behave then... now that I think of it!


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

Sarah Platts said:


> Actually she would use it more if she ever meets Michael.



Here, here... wise words!


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Joby Becker said:


> Alice what is your address, I'll send you this in case Tiago makes it to see you


Will Pm you :lol:


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Sarah Platts said:


> Actually she would use it more if she ever meets Michael.


Not true.....

Its not big enough for Michael :lol:


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Tiago Fontes said:


> When I met her last time, she offered me coffee! LOL
> 
> I did behave then... now that I think of it!


I were of my game that day lad.... 't will nae happen again :lol:


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## Marcel Winter (Mar 29, 2013)

Hey Alice Robbie is the brother from Mika Iedema the mother from
IVO III .


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Marcel Winter said:


> Hey Alice Robbie is the brother from Mika Iedema the mother from
> IVO III .


Eh? I am pretty sure he is not. That is, if you are talking about this Robbie.


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Marcel Winter said:


> Hey Alice Robbie is the brother from Mika Iedema the mother from
> IVO III .


You are right! Just checked. Brothers from.same parents but different litters. Color me surprised and feeling stupid that I didnt think your message through better.


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Robbie II, little over a year old doing the Object Guard yesterday.

http://youtu.be/hGUpGtmQAnA


Taking a breather before the next exercise...


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Robbie II doing the Stick/Face attack at club yesterday. Full length attack for the first time at a little over a year old. 

Notice the lack of certain sounds? Sounds that where hammered on in this topic? (owww ye off little faith [-( ) Enjoy the silence and feel free to dig up something new to hammer on. :lol:

http://youtu.be/2VxmY0-hrfQ


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## Marcel Winter (Mar 29, 2013)

Nice work Alice , Robbie looks good also.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

I couldn't hear much with the distance, or see much of the dog on the bite. What I could see didn't look bad.

What i did see that i liked was it looks like his out is there. Not giving your husband any attention at all now staying focused on the decoy. Did it just progressively get better? Did you add ecollar?

Thanks for posting.



Alice Bezemer said:


> Robbie II doing the Stick/Face attack at club yesterday. Full length attack for the first time at a little over a year old.
> 
> Notice the lack of certain sounds? Sounds that where hammered on in this topic? (owww ye off little faith [-( ) Enjoy the silence and feel free to dig up something new to hammer on. :lol:
> 
> http://youtu.be/2VxmY0-hrfQ


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Dave Colborn said:


> I couldn't hear much with the distance, or see much of the dog on the bite. What I could see didn't look bad.
> 
> What i did see that i liked was it looks like his out is there. Not giving your husband any attention at all now staying focused on the decoy. Did it just progressively get better? Did you add ecollar?
> 
> Thanks for posting.


I tried to have the volume up as loud as possible so that everything would be audible for anyone. Could not get any closer without the image bobbing about to much but I figured since you could clearly hear the stick hit from that distance, which he got full on his ass, you would be able to hear his vocalisation, which ofcourse wasn't there, as well. 

Nope, no E collar needed with this one, for now atleast... His out is solid without any anger or stress ans his focus is perfect. He accepts all contact since he has come to understand that he might not want people to mess with him but he simply does not have a choice in the matter. We call it "the quarter has dropped." He is a dog that in mind and action is to old for his age. He has never been much of a pup to begin with, very serious in everything and only had very small time frames of pup behaviour. This does mean we have to take it down a gear or two since this makes the temptation of working to fast and doing things to soon a real problem. He acts adult in everything, he shows adult in character, he looks adult in size... He doesn't flinch or fall back in any way and appears to be able to take a lot on his shoulders which is a dangerous thing. He is working the entire programme already and has been for 2 months now so its time to take it down a notch and work a bit slower with him. 

He is developing as expected. Clear, levelheaded, serious yet happy dog who enjoys his work tremendously. He still is an angry dog tho, with quite the attitude to him but he redirects that anger in to his bitework. up to date I am not dissappointed in him one bit. To sum it up.... He is a good dog and if he keeps up the way he has in the past he will not be sold.


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

Alice Bezemer said:


> Robbie II doing the Stick/Face attack at club yesterday. Full length attack for the first time at a little over a year old.
> 
> Notice the lack of certain sounds? Sounds that where hammered on in this topic? (owww ye off little faith [-( ) Enjoy the silence and feel free to dig up something new to hammer on. :lol:
> 
> http://youtu.be/2VxmY0-hrfQ



Looks very good! Good job, Alice.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

> This does mean we have to take it down a gear or two since this makes the temptation of working to fast and doing things to soon a real problem.
> 
> 
> > Good to hear...


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

congrats Alice ... should be a powerhouse and much goodness there.


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## Wayne Scace (Jun 1, 2014)

Ben Thompson said:


> I was able to use the yes command and get good results with basic obedience phase of training...What would happen if these people take their dogs somewhere and forgot to bring the clicker. I just would never want to rely on that. Its just one more damn thing I gotta remember to pack.


*That is why I mostly use an enthusiastic "YES" rather than a clicker with my pup. Usually I have one hand on Harley's hsrness handle leaving one hand free to treat ( if I am training a new behaviour ) or to leash correct if required.

Wayne And Harley
*


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## Wayne Scace (Jun 1, 2014)

Alice Bezemer said:


> And ofcourse I posted the links wrong at damn Youtube made it a damn playlist :twisted:
> 
> These are the links I meant :lol:
> 
> ...


*I have ZERO experience in bitework training, so pardon my question. Why was the bald helper smacking Robbie?*


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

Good job Robbie!


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Wayne Scace said:


> *I have ZERO experience in bitework training, so pardon my question. Why was the bald helper smacking Robbie?*


Part desensitization and part building up of presure on the dog to see how he reacts. During the stick/face attack (last video post made) you will see that he gets a full body stick hit over his back, right before he makes the bite. If you do not train for that there would be a lot of dogs that would come of the bite in confusement or even fear over being hit for no specific reason. So you train for that. Also, after he is trained he might get sold in to Lawenforcment to work the streets in which case he will encounter getting hurt or hit or kicked in the line of duty. He should expect this and not come of the bite but feel enticed to turn that pain into anger and repay the person kicking or hitting him with his teeth.

If you do not train for these events and wait to the last minute or maybe even trial for him to experiance a stickhit, or the streets, then he will probably come of the bite and decide to leave his trainer/handler to pick up the pieces.


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Tiago Fontes said:


> Looks very good! Good job, Alice.


You still heading over for trials? Robbie told me he wants to meet you :lol:


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

VERY nice! :wink:


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Brian Anderson said:


> congrats Alice ... should be a powerhouse and much goodness there.


Have to say that up to now he has been a pleasure to work with even tho he does actually make you WORK for everything. No free rides with this dog :lol: he's quite short tempered but enjoys himself so much on the field and in anything he does that its great fun to see him do something. There is not one exercise that he doesn't enjoy doing which makes working him a lot of fun.


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Ben Thompson said:


> Good job Robbie!


Thanks


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Bob Scott said:


> VERY nice! :wink:


Thank you :mrgreen: Robbie makes it all look great. Its all him!


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Alice Bezemer said:


> Thank you :mrgreen: Robbie makes it all look great. Its all him!



A powerful car can only win a race with a good driver! :razz: :grin:


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## Wayne Scace (Jun 1, 2014)

*Alice, first of all, it was a pleasure and honour watching Robbie II go from baby to yearling.
My dog training experience is in training dogs to herd dairy cattle on my family's farm and Service Dogs, Guidework specifically. I have been a Guide Dog Owner for fourteen years. My first three guides were school trained. I have trained three guides. Harley, my 4 year old American White Shepherd + Labrador cross. Sky, a 4 year old GSD and Storm a 3.5 year old GSD + Husky cross. Storm and Sky gujde friends of mine. The pups were taught who was boss, but they, as all Guide Dogs are, were not taught blind ( pun intended ) robotic obedience, Instead, I taught them intelligent disobedience. I say this, not as a criticism to how you train your pups and your expectations for your pups, but to let you know where I come from viewpoint wise. I use a mix of marker training and compulsive. 


*


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Wayne Scace said:


> *Alice, first of all, it was a pleasure and honour watching Robbie II go from baby to yearling.
> My dog training experience is in training dogs to herd dairy cattle on my family's farm and Service Dogs, Guidework specifically. I have been a Guide Dog Owner for fourteen years. My first three guides were school trained. I have trained three guides. Harley, my 4 year old American White Shepherd + Labrador cross. Sky, a 4 year old GSD and Storm a 3.5 year old GSD + Husky cross. Storm and Sky gujde friends of mine. The pups were taught who was boss, but they, as all Guide Dogs are, were not taught blind ( pun intended ) robotic obedience, Instead, I taught them intelligent disobedience. I say this, not as a criticism to how you train your pups and your expectations for your pups, but to let you know where I come from viewpoint wise. I use a mix of marker training and compulsive.
> 
> 
> *



I have respect for all forms of training even tho I might not be inclined to use them myself 

I am a trainer that will use what I see in a pup as it grows up. I look for things that it shows a natural ability in and try to extend that with play as long as possible. The more that is learned in play the easier my task will be as the dog grows up. I do not use marker or clicker training and do not rewards with treats or toys since thats just not the person I am. I tend to use compulsion since it works best for me and the type of dogs that I work with. I am, or atleast that is what I feel, a very patient trainer, as is my husband. I can take a very long time to teach a dog one exercise and be quite happy about having to spend that time. That same patience goes out the window the moment I see the dog gets the idea and knows what is expected of it. I don't take no for an answer and am not softhearted or handed for that matter. Action, reaction. I do not ask my dogs to work for me, I demand and they will follow my fules without exception or suffer the consequences. I am a very black and white trainer with simple basic rules that I will not stretch or deviate from. Once I set up a programme in my head for the dog I will stick to it... I guess I'm stuborn like that but it has paid off in the last 20+ years


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Bob Scott said:


> A powerful car can only win a race with a good driver! :razz: :grin:


Good thing my hubby is at the wheel most of the time then huh :lol: :lol:

Wimins drivers and all that


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## alen dakovic (Oct 5, 2010)

No strange sounds when on pressure...!? Something is wrong with a dog Alice!
Een echte serious hond. En mooi ook. Het lijkt op een wolf.
Gefeliciteerd Alice.

Still on leg bite after stick attack..? It will change or not?


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

alen dakovic said:


> No strange sounds when on pressure...!? Something is wrong with a dog Alice!
> Een echte serious hond. En mooi ook. Het lijkt op een wolf.
> Gefeliciteerd Alice.
> 
> Still on leg bite after stick attack..? It will change or not?


Dank je, Alan  Yup he is a very serious dog in anything he does. Does his bloodline, and owner well proud!

Yep, rules changed for PH1, all first attacks are on the arm again and the second attack may be arm or leg. Since the rules change per Oktober 1st and we only heard about it 4 months ago we were already well allong in putting Robbie on the leg so we decided to let the second attack stay on the leg and only change the attack on the throw attack to the back of the arm. PH1 is 435 points now since they also changed the fake attack. Took out the part for "no biting" which makes sense since if the dog does bite you lose the entire exercise anyway so why judge the dog on the no biting...


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## Jay Quinn (Apr 1, 2012)

he is coming along very nicely Alice! i can see why you would want to keep him : )


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

Alice Bezemer said:


> You still heading over for trials? Robbie told me he wants to meet you :lol:



I'll be there from the 31st of July through the 3rd of August. 

Do you have trials around that time?


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Jay Quinn said:


> he is coming along very nicely Alice! i can see why you would want to keep him : )


Thank you, Jay!


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Tiago Fontes said:


> I'll be there from the 31st of July through the 3rd of August.
> 
> Do you have trials around that time?


Nope, summer trials are early July till half July. Next trial season starts in Oktober. Our club has the Fall trial again this year on Oktober 4th, and maybe Oktober 2nd as well, depending on the amount of people trialing. Just checked but not much happening in our area, demonstration wise...


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

Alice Bezemer said:


> Nope, summer trials are early July till half July. Next trial season starts in Oktober. Our club has the Fall trial again this year on Oktober 4th, and maybe Oktober 2nd as well, depending on the amount of people trialing. Just checked but not much happening in our area, demonstration wise...



There's a GSD practice day in Didam, mid August... but I wont be able to make it. 

I'll be back in October


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## Wayne Scace (Jun 1, 2014)

Alice Bezemer said:


> I have respect for all forms of training even tho I might not be inclined to use them myself
> 
> I am a trainer that will use what I see in a pup as it grows up. I look for things that it shows a natural ability in and try to extend that with play as long as possible. The more that is learned in play the easier my task will be as the dog grows up. I do not use marker or clicker training and do not rewards with treats or toys since thats just not the person I am. I tend to use compulsion since it works best for me and the type of dogs that I work with. I am, or atleast that is what I feel, a very patient trainer, as is my husband. I can take a very long time to teach a dog one exercise and be quite happy about having to spend that time. That same patience goes out the window the moment I see the dog gets the idea and knows what is expected of it. I don't take no for an answer and am not softhearted or handed for that matter. Action, reaction. I do not ask my dogs to work for me, I demand and they will follow my fules without exception or suffer the consequences. I am a very black and white trainer with simple basic rules that I will not stretch or deviate from. Once I set up a programme in my head for the dog I will stick to it... I guess I'm stuborn like that but it has paid off in the last 20+ years


*Alice, I respect my elders and take every opportunity to learn. Knowledge, no matter where it comes from, is power. I would, however, like to return the favour and share some of my own treasure trove.
Intelligent disobedience is the product of teaching a dog its job and then trusting your life to that well trained dog's good judgement and disobey if the situation warrants. Teaching the dog which situations to use that judgement is the tricky and FUN part... 
For example, say I ask ( not command ) Harley "Graudaus" to cross a street. I say ask because if there is a car coming that would run us over, Harley will NOT move off of that kerb. Most times, he will body block me as well. That's just one example of a dog using intelligent disobedience to preserve the life of itself and it's owner. 
*


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Wayne, I can't speak for Alice (Lord knows the woman can speak for herself) but some do not want a dog to have willful disobedience. There are many situations and jobs that do not allow for this. The dog does not get to pick and chose over whether or not to obey a given command. The command is given, the dog must obey. This is very important depending on the job the dog is tasked with. For guide dogs, yes, the dog must have some latitude with their job. For law enforcement canines there is less wiggle room. If the dog is sent to engage an individual, the dog MUST do that. This isn't a democracy. The dog doesn't get a vote.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Don't guide dogs respond to stimulus? A car in the road means stop? Not wilful disobedience at all. It would be if it hadn't been trained to stop it's human from walking into traffic. Just responding to cues, right?



Sarah Platts said:


> Wayne, I can't speak for Alice (Lord knows the woman can speak for herself) but some do not want a dog to have willful disobedience. There are many situations and jobs that do not allow for this. The dog does not get to pick and chose over whether or not to obey a given command. The command is given, the dog must obey. This is very important depending on the job the dog is tasked with. For guide dogs, yes, the dog must have some latitude with their job. For law enforcement canines there is less wiggle room. If the dog is sent to engage an individual, the dog MUST do that. This isn't a democracy. The dog doesn't get a vote.


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## Wayne Scace (Jun 1, 2014)

Dave Colborn said:


> Don't guide dogs respond to stimulus? A car in the road means stop? Not wilful disobedience at all. It would be if it hadn't been trained to stop it's human from walking into traffic. Just responding to cues, right?


*No Dave. Wilful disobedience is not intelligent disobedience. 
But perhaps we should open thus discussion in a separate thread so as not to hijack Alice's thread any further.*


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Wayne Scace said:


> *Alice, I respect my elders and take every opportunity to learn. Knowledge, no matter where it comes from, is power. I would, however, like to return the favour and share some of my own treasure trove.
> Intelligent disobedience is the product of teaching a dog its job and then trusting your life to that well trained dog's good judgement and disobey if the situation warrants. Teaching the dog which situations to use that judgement is the tricky and FUN part...
> For example, say I ask ( not command ) Harley "Graudaus" to cross a street. I say ask because if there is a car coming that would run us over, Harley will NOT move off of that kerb. Most times, he will body block me as well. That's just one example of a dog using intelligent disobedience to preserve the life of itself and it's owner.
> *


Each dog venue demands its own form of training. This sort of training suits you and your dog for the programme that you are training for and I respect that. For me, this kind of training is not anything I would ever consider because it is of no use to me or the dog in any way. The dog thinking doesn't even figure into things. I say, he does, end off...

Willfull or intelligent disobediance has no place in bitesports or training for civil work.


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## Wayne Scace (Jun 1, 2014)

Alice Bezemer said:


> Each dog venue demands its own form of training. This sort of training suits you and your dog for the programme that you are training for and I respect that. For me, this kind of training is not anything I would ever consider because it is of no use to me or the dog in any way. The dog thinking doesn't even figure into things. I say, he does, end off...
> 
> Willfull or intelligent disobediance has no place in bitesports or training for civil work.


*Well said Ma'am. 
To each their own.
If I ever decide to tackle bitesports I will definitely leave disobedience of any kind out of the training programme.
*


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## Larry Krohn (Nov 18, 2010)

Beautiful. Nothing like a new pup


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Robbie II Update!

First training day of terrain for Robbie at the Berry II offspring training day in Heeze, Netherlands. 

Robbie was more than ready for his first big day and did us as well as his father and siblings well proud. Youngest dog there at 14 months which was a bit strange to see but he did great! Was even more mature then expected... 

No video, sorry. A few shots of him working tho.  

(BTW, not a peep on the bite :razz: )


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## Marcel Winter (Mar 29, 2013)

Looks good for his age Alice nice pictures,


Also have seen some nice Berry II offspring in Eindhoven


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## Jay Quinn (Apr 1, 2012)

love your work Alice, and of course credit to Theo as well! he is such a handsome fella... 
(i was meaning Robbie, not trying to crack onto your hubby ;P )


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

Alice Bezemer said:


> Robbie II Update!
> 
> First training day of terrain for Robbie at the Berry II offspring training day in Heeze, Netherlands.
> 
> ...



I know why you didnt post a video... you didnt want us to hear his distress sounds while on the bite... Your dog did not fly into the bite...That picture is misleading... He's flying because you threw him at the decoy... LOL (joking). 


Pics look great. Would love to see a video!


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## petguide.co (11 mo ago)

Alice Bezemer said:


> Robbie II Update!
> 
> First training day of terrain for Robbie at the Berry II offspring training day in Heeze, Netherlands.
> 
> ...





Alice Bezemer said:


> Robbie II Update!
> 
> First training day of terrain for Robbie at the Berry II offspring training day in Heeze, Netherlands.
> 
> ...


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## Mila (5 mo ago)

Nice work Alice looks good.


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