# Raw Diet!!



## Hillary Hamilton (Jan 6, 2009)

ok, well I really want to switch to the raw diet with both my rotties but I don't know how!!! I have looked at the barf websites but am having trouble getting a meal plan together. Does anyone have a sample meal plan for one day? I know what veggies to feed and what meats and supplements to feed just need help getting a plan for both of them. Joe weighs 90 lbs. and Raina currently weighs 18 lbs.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Hillary, like the previous thread, I think it's fine to start a physically mature dog on raw for the first time, but it's not something I would do with a puppy if you've never done it until you really know what works. Nutrition can be a tricky thing with a breed like a Rottweiler, who undergoes different growth spurts and must be kept lean. They are likely to be easier to overdo or underdo something than like a beagle, for instance. Doing a raw diet correctly can take a lot of legwork too, like getting local contacts for high quality parts, as getting it all from the grocery store is often expensive and it's usually not local and raised in confinement,which is not ideal. 

For my adults (all between 48 and 60ish lbs), I found it easiest to get whole chickens and turkeys (with organ meat) and give each adult dog half a whole chicken cut right down the middle or 1/4 a whole turkey (switch it back and forth so one day the dog gets the white meat and the next day gets the dark). Take the giblets (gizzard, heart, and liver) and divide it in half or fourths depending on the bird. That way, you are more likely to get what you need for calcium with the whole prey and the proper nutrients in the heart muscle, gizzard, and liver for organ meat. The kidneys also happen to lie right along the backbone (but they don't look like mammalian kidneys), so that's also why I like the whole bird.

You'll also need to feed a veggie mix and tripe, as even the most obligate carnivores (snakes, for instance) get plant material in the GI tract of their prey. Some websites may say it is not necessary. This is incorrect and not biologically or nutritionally accurate. As I don't like using a food processor, I used The Honest Kitchen Preference as the veggie mix and a couple different sources for tripe. Either green tripe in a can (Solid Gold and a couple other companies makes it), frozen, or getting it from a friend who hunts is probably the easiest. It is difficult to get these days from a slaughter house due to USDA regulations. I would *HIGHLY* recommend getting a very high quality set of knives for cutting stuff up. A food scale is very helpful, as well those vacuum sealer kits. A separate chest freezer is a must too. Getting one made life much much easier and I felt more confident that the meat was stayinig colder.

I prefer to be minimal with supplements, so fish oil, vitamin E, and vitamin C (not absolutely necessary, but good for times of stress and whatnot). I also feel that giving some kind of probiotic is NOT an option with feeding raw both for the safety of the dog and the safety of the humans with food borne disease. There are a couple different options, like active yogurt cultures (I like Stonyfield Organic and Mountain High) or you can even make your own yogurt, which is probably ideal. Other options are stuff like FortiFlora and Culturelle.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Forgot to add...I didn't feed just poultry. A lot other more interesting animals were fed besides just those (duck, rabbit, lamb, beef, bison, venison, emu, pork, goat, several kinds of fish, etc). But those were the simplest to add as well as the most readily available in the grocery store to start out with.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Hillary Hamilton said:


> ok, well I really want to switch to the raw diet with both my rotties but I don't know how!!! I have looked at the barf websites but am having trouble getting a meal plan together. Does anyone have a sample meal plan for one day? I know what veggies to feed and what meats and supplements to feed just need help getting a plan for both of them. Joe weighs 90 lbs. and Raina currently weighs 18 lbs.


 
Hillary,

I think Maren bell is correct that research is essential. I did just what you did. I asked a lot of questions, read a lot. A lot of the websites just confused me more. 

So what I did was just started feeding staples. Meat and bones, veggies, and eggs. I then kept researching. Adding things taking things away. Till I found what worked for my dogs and me. I kept a close eye on the dogs. 

But one of the beautiful things about nutrition is as long as you do not OD them on fat soluable vitamins or feed something toxic. It will take a long time to cause any damage. And if your researching and keeping tabs on your dogs. You will be refining and refining the diet. making it ever more optimal as time goes on. 

I also think your doing your puppies a huge favor by throwing meat instead of kibble. And if your really concerned about pups...start with premade raw until you get your mix down.

In fact one of our first recipies was a rip off from greentripe.com


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

James Downey said:


> It will take a long time to cause any damage.


Except if it's a puppy. They can literally develop deficiencies within weeks and it shows (God, the horror stories I've heard...), particularly with large breeds that go from a pound or two at birth to 80-100 lbs (like a Rottie) in a year. Which is why you have a little more wiggle room with a fully mature adult. I've raised a pup on raw (never had any kibble until he was 16 months old and he's going in for his OFAs for hips and elbows in 2 months), but I had done it for about 3 years in adults first. If you want to supplement with a commercial preparation to make sure they are covered, try:

http://www.naturesvariety.com/raw_products
http://www.innovapet.com/product_line.asp?id=1687


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Maren what would be the main deficiencies you would see? 

Calcium,vit & min?


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Calcium and phosphorus balance is the primary concern and can have immediate health affects. I've seen what appeared to be anemia from this. The dog's gums turned PALE pink, almost white, and thin-skinned areas, like ears, appeared blue. Extreme lethargy too. Put the dog onto a balanced diet, and within days, problem solved.

This means getting the ratio of meat to bone correct. After feeding raw for several years, including working at a breeding kennel that raised pups on raw, I have an intuitive feel for it that I base on constant observation of the dog, it's condition, activity, etc. I don't think I could define it for someone else though!

Feeding a good variety of muscle meat, bone and organ meat correctly is essential. IMO, supplements are the icing on the cake. When starting out, I don't see anything wrong with using prepared mixes as supplements (like Missing Link). I prefer to be particular on EXACTLY what supplements (whether natural or prepared) to give when and why, but this is more because of my personal interest in it, not because I think it is necessary.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

brad robert said:


> Maren what would be the main deficiencies you would see?
> 
> Calcium,vit & min?


Mostly calcium, phosphorus, and vitamin D imbalances, but those are mostly because those are fairly well studied. Sodium, chloride, and potassium are all critical too. We still don't have a great appreciate for the micronutrients and how those interact. Most people tend to think of calcium just important for bones, which it is, but is vital for soooo many physiological (AKA non-structural) functions in the body. And it's not just strictly amounts, but it is how they interact with the minerals and vitamins as well. I love internal medicine, but I still have a lot of trouble wrapping my mind around all the fluctuations that can happen clinically. You have to do some serious study to have an appreciate for how complicated it is. Makes my head spin or go like this.... ](*,)


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## David Scholes (Jul 12, 2008)

I'm thinking about experimenting this summer making fermented greens. Most kinds like sauerkraut and kimchi have lots of salt but in Nepal they make Gundruk where they ferment a mixture of greens without salt. The trick will be making sure sufficient acid is produced and it doesn't rot. If it doesn't kill me, I'll give some to the dog. 

It appears these ancient "poor man's" food are actually very good for you. I'm thinking they would be like the partially digested stomach contents a predator gets in their diet.


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## todd pavlus (Apr 30, 2008)

posted this in a different thread. Just a basis I go by. I do mix in other meats, yogurt, fish, and tripe, etc....

This is what I go by for my dog. It has fish twice a week in it. Courtsy of leerburg

One Week Menu for 90 Pound Male 
Monday​One pound of chicken necks or backs or leg quaters
12 oz. Ground turkey, hamburger, beef heart or chicken hearts / gizzards 
One egg w/shell 
Salmon Oil 
1 tsp. Super C powder
400 units of Vitmain E 
Tuesday​6oz. Liver (chicken, beef or pork) or kidneys 
8 oz. Chicken necks or backs of Leg Quarters
One egg w/shell 
1/4 cup of ground veggies 
Salmon Oil 
2 tsp. Kelp/Alfalfa mix
1 tsp. Super C powder
400 units of Vitamin E 
Wednesday​One can of mackerel 
1/4 cup veggies 
8oz. Chicken necks or backs or Chicken Leg Quarters
1 tsp. Super C powder
400 units of Vitamin E 
Thursday​One pound of chicken necks or backs or Leg Quaters
12 oz. Ground turkey, hamburger, beef heart or chicken hearts and gizzards 
One egg w/shell 
Salmon Oil 
1 tsp. Super C powder
400 units of Vitamin E
Friday​6oz. Liver (chicken, beef or pork) or kidneys
8 oz. Chicken necks or backs or Leg Quaters
One egg w/shell
1/4 cup of ground veggies
Salmon Oil 
2 tsp. Kelp/Alfalfa mix
1 tsp. Super C powder
400 Unites of Vitamin E 
Saturday​One pound of chicken necks or backs or Leg Quaters
12 oz. Ground turkey, hamburger, beef heart or chicken hearts/gizzards
One egg w/shell
Salmon Oil 
1 tsp. Super C powder
400 unites of Vitamin E 
Sunday​One can sardines
1/4 cup veggies
1 pound Chicken necks or backs or Leg Quaters
12 oz. Ground turkey, hamburger, beef heart or chicken hearts/gizzards
Salmon Oil 
1 tsp. Super C powder
400 Unites of Vitamin E
We gave 1 tsp. of Grand Flex or liquid glucosamine daily to our Mature dogs.

One Week Menu for 65 Pound Female 
Monday​12 oz. Chicken necks or backs
8 oz. Ground turkey, hamburger, beef heart or chicken hearts / gizzards
One egg w/shell
Salmon Oil 
1 tsp. Super C powder 
400 units of Vitmain E​Tuesday​6oz. Liver (chicken, beef or pork) or kidneys
6 oz. Chicken necks or backs
One egg w/shell
1/4 Cup of ground veggies
Salmon Oil 
2 tsp. Kelp/Alfalfa mix
1 tsp. Super C powder 
400 units of Vitmain E​Wednesday​One can of mackerel
1/4 Cup veggies
6oz. Chicken necks or backs
1 tsp. Super C powder 
400 units of Vitmain E​Thursday​12 oz. Chicken necks or backs
8 oz. Ground turkey, hamburger,beef heart or chicken hearts and gizzards
One egg w/shell
Salmon Oil 
1 tsp. Super C powder
400 units of Vitmain E​Friday​6oz. Liver (chicken, beef or pork) or kidneys
6oz. Chicken necks or backs
One egg w/shell
1/4 Cup of ground veggies
Salmon Oil 
2 tsp. Kelp/Alfalfa mix
1 tsp. Super C powder 
400 units of Vitmain E​Saturday​12 oz. Chicken necks or backs
8 oz. Ground turkey, hamburger, beef heart or chicken hearts/gizzards
One egg w/shell
Salmon Oil 
1 tsp. Super C powder 
400 units of Vitmain E​Sunday​One can sardines
1/4 Cup veggies
12 oz Chicken necks or backs
8 oz. Ground turkey, hamburger, beef heart or chicken hearts/gizzards
1 tsp. Super C powder 
400 units of Vitmain E 
We gave 1 tsp. of Grand Flex or liquid glucosamine daily to our Mature dogs.​

from
http://leerburg.com/diet2.htm


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## Polliana Oliveira (Jan 8, 2009)

that looks expensive if you dont have a good place 2 buy


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Polliana Oliveira said:


> that looks expensive if you dont have a good place 2 buy


You can estimate it by the weight of your dog and what the per-pound price of the basic RMBs will be for you.

If your dog weighs 75 pounds, you may be feeding 24 to 30 ounces or so a day.

If your RMBs are 1.25/pound, you'll have about $2 a day cost.

I don't add fish oil to the cost comparison because I think it needs to be added to virtually all modern diets, so it's not a raw-only cost.

I have heard people say that it runs them about the same as the best of the commercial foods.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

BTW, chicken backs are a terrific basic RMB and can often be found for way under $1 a pound.


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## David Scholes (Jul 12, 2008)

Polliana Oliveira said:


> that looks expensive if you dont have a good place 2 buy


If you know where to look you can find free sources to at least supplement. Here's a few ideas.

1) Hunters or home butchers. You can get rib cages, bones, internal organs.
2) Freezer burned or older meat from hunters, fishermen, farmers or the family of them who are given the excess and don't eat it.
3) People who raise small livestock such as rabbits, laying hens etc in their back yard. 
4) We have a free advertising site in Utah ksl.com. You'd be surprised how many people want to give away roosters or old laying hens or unwanted bunnies.
5) You could also call small slaughter houses and see what they can do, but you'll probably need to buy in bulk and have a big freezer.


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## Polliana Oliveira (Jan 8, 2009)

people online talk about - pray model diet - barf diet - RMB diet. are these different from one another? What I understand is the pray model diet is more meat and less bone then the others??

ALSO  Can you supplement a raw diet with kibble tell you feel you are getting it right?


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## Meng Xiong (Jan 21, 2009)

When I first started feeding raw 2 years ago, I was very anal about measuring and calculating the exact rmb and protein ratios, but as I quickly found its not needed!

I don't even bother measuring the daily rations anymore, I just eye-ball it.

I typically use chicken quarters from Walmart as the staple meat since its cheap and available 24/7. Then I'll supplement with anything I happend to find on sale, which could include beef, pork, canned Jack Makeral, venison, even geese frames.

Since we recently got a WinCo foods outlet, ive been feeding lots of cheap pork, .58 cents a pound is hard to pass up!

I know its been said a million times, but i truely believe variety in rmbs and proteins is key.


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## Meng Xiong (Jan 21, 2009)

As far as cost goes...

During the winter they eat more
So roughly 3-4lbs a day between the two of them
roughly 90-120lbs a month
22-30lbs a week

avgerage cost per pound .65 cents

So I spend roughly $59-$78 a month

For two dogs, I don't think thats bad at all for the quality of feed. And summer time is probably about 10% less in food and costs.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Polliana Oliveira said:


> people online talk about - pray model diet - barf diet - RMB diet. are these different from one another? What I understand is the pray model diet is more meat and less bone then the others??
> 
> ALSO  Can you supplement a raw diet with kibble tell you feel you are getting it right?


RMB just means "raw meaty bones" -- the basis of all raw diets. 

I do not mix kibble and raw.

Also, a balanced commercial food for half of the diet is balanced in itself but does nothing to balance, say, a wildly out-of-whack other half made of hamburger. Nothing about the kibble is going to save the fact that half of the diet is bereft of calcium.

Prey model is a term meaning "modeled after the prey diet the wild canid eats," used for an often-erroneous POV that canids need nothing but a few chicken quarters (or, even worse, some boneless meat). A wild canid does not kill and eat cleaned, trimmed, gutless poultry quarters. 

If the term was used to apply to a REAL "prey diet," it would be great.

About mean/bone: All of the various diets should be modeled after the way the bones and meat "come" -- that is, the amount of bone the canid would eat when chowing down on whole rodents, rabbits, birds, etc., or when eating the lighter bones of a larger animal, like an ungulate.

There are some great online sources for devising a very good raw diet. PM me if you would like links or book suggestions.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Meng Xiong said:


> ... I know its been said a million times, but i truely believe variety ..... is key.



It cannot be said enough. I agree 110%.

Even if poultry is used for the main RMBs, there is no limit to the variety than can be introduced in the added muscle meat.


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