# Oldest age for bitches first litter



## Mike Schoonbrood

What is considered to be the oldest one would breed a bitch to have her first litter safely?


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## Jeff Oehlsen

I have seen them bred at 8. Usually the only problem is they don't take. If the bitch is healthy, there shouldn't be any problems.


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## Debbie Skinner

I bred Ricci 2 Pottois, FRIII for the first time at 5 years old. She had a normal size litter (6+ don't remember the #). This was an Elgos daughter so it was quite some time ago. She was a great mother and there were no problems.


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## Don Turnipseed

My experiences have been that if there is going to be a problem with a first time breeding, it always happens if I wait till the bitch is 3 or older. At 20 mo or there abouts, they seem to take to it like a duck to water.


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## mike suttle

I just bred Demi to Carlos a couple weeks ago. Demi is 4 1/2 years old and this will be her first litter.
Last year I had a guy bring me a very nice SchH 2 GSD bitch to breed to one of our males here, she was 10 years old and still looked and acted like she was 2. She had never been bred before, but she always had normal heat cycles. We did the breeding 3 times over 6 days, she stood fine and acted totally normal. The breeding did not take.


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## Selena van Leeuwen

our imaginary line is 5 yrs for a first time breeding.


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## Wawashkashi Tashi

One of our Bouvier bitches had her 1st litter at 6yo, & my Boerboel bitch Batu had her 1st litter at 4.5yo -most people breeding Boerboels start *much* sooner!


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## Howard Gaines III

I wouldn't go beyond 6-7, depending upon the health and overall condition of the female.


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## Don Turnipseed

So if a bitch has never been of interest for breeding for 7 or 8 years, why would someone bother to breed it at that age? I am just really curious. Had to have passed a BH or something.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Don, I have known some really really nice dogs over the years who never ever were bred for the dumbest ****ing reasons on the planet. There are a lot of people that have no interest in breeding, no matter how good the dog is. The dog just went to the wrong home as far as breeding goes.

However, sometimes what happens, is that the people get out in the world and see that their dog is actually way above other dogs, and then they see their friends getting dogs that are just OK, and it starts to occur to them that they should breed their dog for the good of the BREED. Now the dog is _____ years old. Oh shit.

That is a really common story. Usually the one that is excited about breeding has Bob average dog, and the dog is throwing litters left and right, and all of a sudden, they are BREEDERS of high quality whatevers, and get what is called SUDDEN NOTORIETY, and become insta experts.

Politically, if you want to go somewhere fast in the dog world, you become a breeder. I know a lot of retards that have never ever produced shit, but because they have bred 40 litters a year for 20 years, they are "well respected" and an "expert" on the breed. LOL

Look at Kimbertal Kennels. I bought a dog from them years ago, and my eye sockets still bleed from the experience occasionally. Those people were "experts" in my mind. It is perception that drives opinion.


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## Trish Campbell

I think after 5 your pushing it. Someone will always have a story that's an exception but, the body changes. There could be changes in the uterus, ovaries, cysts developing, hormonal changes which effect a viable pregnancy, etc. The bottom line is the uterus ages too.


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## Don Turnipseed

Actually, the uterus walls deteriorate with each heat cycle if Dr. Hutch is right At 6, 7, or 8 years, that is a lot of deterioration compared to a 2 year old.


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## Geoff Empey

Don Turnipseed said:


> So if a bitch has never been of interest for breeding for 7 or 8 years, why would someone bother to breed it at that age? I am just really curious. Had to have passed a BH or something.



Yeah it took them that long to get the "ultimate' working dog title! Maybe that or they got a 'HIC' !


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## Don Turnipseed

Naw, I'll tell you what I think it is Geoff. I think they see the dog getting old and figure they better hurry up and breed her so they don't have to fork out the bucks on another dog. That is one of the most common reasons for a first time breeding on a dog that age. :-o Or how about..."She has been such a good dog, she deserves to have at least one litter. I hear em both.


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## mike suttle

Don Turnipseed said:


> Naw, I'll tell you what I think it is Geoff. I think they see the dog getting old and figure they better hurry up and breed her so they don't have to fork out the bucks on another dog. That is one of the most common reasons for a first time breeding on a dog that age. :-o Or how about..."She has been such a good dog, she deserves to have at least one litter. I hear em both.


I have heard both of these reasons too many times as well.
Sometimes there may be very nice females who are never bred simply because they are in the hands of people who are passionate about training and competing, but have no interest in breeding, then after they are titled and have reached their full potential on a trial field they are sold to other people who know the significance of breeding a female of that quality, so they are bred at 5-6 years old.
One of my most interesting breeding females here I found on a farm in Holland, she was over 4 years old and her only job was to be a farm dog. After finding out about her bloodlines we went there to test the dog, she is a breeding quality dog for sure, but would have never been bred where she was because the old farmer only wanted one farm dog and he had it with her. We bought him another dog for him to use for cat killing and barking at people and traded her for Demi. She cost me the least and may very well be the most significant brood bitch in my kennel.
So there can be a few reasons for a dog not getting bred early in her life. I think it is just all a matter of where she is.


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## Carlye Reid

I only breed when I need a dog, so it's not very often, and on top of that I'll pass up breeding if a really good genetic package comes along from someone else. So there's another reason that breeding might be postponed.


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## Selena van Leeuwen

mike suttle said:


> I have heard both of these reasons too many times as well.
> Sometimes there may be very nice females who are never bred simply because they are in the hands of people who are passionate about training and competing, but have no interest in breeding, then after they are titled and have reached their full potential on a trial field they are sold to other people who know the significance of breeding a female of that quality, so they are bred at 5-6 years old.
> One of my most interesting breeding females here I found on a farm in Holland, she was over 4 years old and her only job was to be a farm dog. After finding out about her bloodlines we went there to test the dog, she is a breeding quality dog for sure, but would have never been bred where she was because the old farmer only wanted one farm dog and he had it with her. We bought him another dog for him to use for cat killing and barking at people and traded her for Demi. She cost me the least and may very well be the most significant brood bitch in my kennel.
> So there can be a few reasons for a dog not getting bred early in her life. I think it is just all a matter of where she is.


We also bought a `farm dog`, check out Donna´s pedigree at bloedlijnen.nl:-\"

She will be 4 next year, and as soon if she comes in season she will be bred to Wibo. Another `old` female,Cleo will be 5 next july and will also be bred when she comes in season. She is a direct Rocky daughter, conceived when Rocky was 12.5 yrs old. you can imagine how glad we were when we purchased her, she will be important in our breeding program. Besides her bloodline alone, she´s an awesome dog, Dick´s `little girl`. Maybe also ´cause she looks and acts very alike to her already passed away halfsister Nika. the one Dick has been on the championships with.


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## mike suttle

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> We also bought a `farm dog`, check out Donna´s pedigree at bloedlijnen.nl:-\"
> 
> She will be 4 next year, and as soon if she comes in season she will be bred to Wibo. Another `old` female,Cleo will be 5 next july and will also be bred when she comes in season. She is a direct Rocky daughter, conceived when Rocky was 12.5 yrs old. you can imagine how glad we were when we purchased her, she will be important in our breeding program. Besides her bloodline alone, she´s an awesome dog, Dick´s `little girl`. Maybe also ´cause she looks and acts very alike to her already passed away halfsister Nika. the one Dick has been on the championships with.


Congratulations on finding Cleo! That had to be a great feeling to find a nice strong female out of one of your already passed away stud dogs. Who will you be breeding Cleo to?


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## Selena van Leeuwen

mike suttle said:


> Congratulations on finding Cleo! That had to be a great feeling to find a nice strong female out of one of your already passed away stud dogs. Who will you be breeding Cleo to?


 we've 2 planned litters: 1 with Wibo (as Rocky grandson and as outcross Rambo inbred on his father's side) and 1 with Bassie (bred back to Rocky through Benta (Nika x Rocky) and Wibo as Rocky grandson).
we're definatly keeping one or two pups from the Cleo x Bassie mating


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