# Black working line GSDs are they any good?



## Donna DeYoung (Jan 29, 2010)

I'm looking at some GSDs in Europe and there are alot of blacks being offered for sale. What is your opinion on solid blacks? Is it a fad? Are the prices higher for solid blacks? Do you like them?

I'm not personally too crazy about them. Some look like black sheepdogs with erect ears. But others are pretty substantial and gorgeous.

I know with my Andalusian horses, blacks can be more expensive because they are more rare. But it's hard to find a "good" black because when they started breeding for color, they lost other things like Quality for one. Occassionaly in horses you get a black pop out of other colors because it is dependent on a recessive gene. Those are the better ones to get. Not black from black from black.

anyways, appreciate your comments.
Donna


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## tony burnett (Nov 17, 2010)

http://www.diehlspolicek9training.com/erri.asp



one of my favorites


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## Molly Graf (Jul 20, 2006)

It's just a color, accepted and not rare. Yes it comes from recessive genes, and I agree with you - better to get it from two recessives than from breeding "for" the color ie black to black. In the end, a good dog is a good dog no matter the color, breeding for color only is a big mistake some breeders make, some buyers simply prefer one color over another - with black either someone will "have to have it" or really don't prefer it - but the serious working people who are looking for a working dog will consider color as one of the last items on their list of preferences.

I personally think black is gorgeous, as long as the dog underneath the color is gorgeous. Very striking and handsome especially the big strong-boned black males. But other things are far more important than color.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Personally, I don't like a solid colour. It appears all black pop up a lot in the Czech lines, and then you have the pet variety all black.

Donna, you mentioned all black andalusian horses, they are pretty rare from what I know, the standard colour there is generally grey and variations of, sometimes bay through liver chestnut. Knew a couple of all black lusitano whose standard quite similar for colour to the Andalusian, didn't have an awful lot going for them. jmo.


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## milder batmusen (Jun 1, 2009)

Molly Graf said:


> It's just a color, accepted and not rare. Yes it comes from recessive genes, and I agree with you - better to get it from two recessives than from breeding "for" the color ie black to black. In the end, a good dog is a good dog no matter the color, breeding for color only is a big mistake some breeders make, some buyers simply prefer one color over another - with black either someone will "have to have it" or really don't prefer it - but the serious working people who are looking for a working dog will consider color as one of the last items on their list of preferences.
> 
> I personally think black is gorgeous, as long as the dog underneath the color is gorgeous. Very striking and handsome especially the big strong-boned black males. But other things are far more important than color.


I must agree with you color is not very important if the rest is not there,but I to like the big males with the big heads all black very beutiful dogs .

I know that he is an old guy now but what about Inox Vom Haus Ming many says some good things about his dog and his progency


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

i'm with molly: it's just a color. personally, up til the last 5 years or so, the blacks i saw were light-boned, coyote-looking dogs i wouldn't have. 

lately, blacks seem to be becoming "the rage" and i've seen a few nicely built with titles (from europe it seems) blacks. still don't like them, but go figure: i like bi-colors and black sables!!

again--color doesn't make the dog.


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## sam wilks (May 3, 2009)

gardefense


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Black german shepherds are a well kept secret. They are the best GSD's in the world, because black is the opposite of white. Never forget that. They are super rare, and be prepared to pay 3 times what you would for a regular GSD.

I have a litter of pups on the ground. There, my self promotion is complete. I will make you a deal, 800 bucks. No refunds just because of scarring.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Black german shepherds are a well kept secret. They are the best GSD's in the world, because black is the opposite of white. Never forget that.



I cannot BELIEVE you posted this for all the world to see.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Black german shepherds are a well kept secret. They are the best GSD's in the world, because black is the opposite of white. Never forget that. They are super rare, and be prepared to pay 3 times what you would for a regular GSD.
> 
> I have a litter of pups on the ground. There, my self promotion is complete. I will make you a deal, 800 bucks. No refunds just because of scarring.


Do you have any off white ones ?? maybe like an eggshell color :-s


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

discussing whether or not a certain color dog is any good? ](*,)


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## Dave Martin (Aug 11, 2010)

One of the nicest females in our region (IMO) is all black, Lolita vom Haus Kiewel. She just had a nice breeding recently.

http://www.rebelyelle.com/lolita.aspx

Agree with the fact that it's just a color like any other but I personally love the look on a strong dog.


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## Val Schwarzmueller (Mar 18, 2011)

In my Schutzhund Club we have all the colors including white. All of them have SchH3 titles so color is not an issue in working dogs if the are within the breed standard. The white ones are offically called Swiss shepherd now. 

Val


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Egg shell white is too hard for most people to handle, they are straight up killers by 4 months. There is one guy in siberia who is able to breed these dogs without being killed, and he wears an old knights armor suit to feed them. They must be fed live food, as they have to have the kill.


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## Derek Milliken (Apr 19, 2009)

My old dog is black, but like others said above, he's from 2 carrier parents. I don't think color has anything to do with working ability, just be ready for a lifetime of telling JQP that no, he's purebred, no he's not a lab cross, yes there are black german shepherds....... Thought I should have got a damn sign at one point.


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

Connie Sutherland said:


> I cannot BELIEVE you posted this for all the world to see.


better thiis than advertisng his "ecru" litter, hahahaha\\/\\/


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## Sandra King (Mar 29, 2011)

Color really has nothing to do with a dogs ability to work. #-o


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Black german shepherds are a well kept secret. They are the best GSD's in the world, because black is the opposite of white. Never forget that. They are super rare, and be prepared to pay 3 times what you would for a regular GSD.
> 
> I have a litter of pups on the ground. There, my self promotion is complete. I will make you a deal, 800 bucks. No refunds just because of scarring.



If you sell them with a black nylon collar, you should be able to get much, much more, as then they fall into the super rare category of tactical GSD's.


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

Dave Colborn said:


> If you sell them with a black nylon collar, you should be able to get much, much more, as then they fall into the super rare category of tactical GSD's.


 
OMG--LOL in SPADES!!! invest in those collars, jeff


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Sandra King said:


> Color really has nothing to do with a dogs ability to work. #-o


Thank you Captain Obvious


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

They are wearing the newest technology in collars, the invisacollar. However, with the proper supertechovision equipment, you can see the collar. 

It comes in invisa-black, and invisacamo.

What the **** is an ecru litter ?


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## Sandra King (Mar 29, 2011)

Val Schwarzmueller said:


> In my Schutzhund Club we have all the colors including white. All of them have SchH3 titles so color is not an issue in working dogs if the are within the breed standard. The white ones are* offically called Swiss shepherd now.
> *
> Val



Berger Blanc Suisse is the official name. 

Here is the FCI Breed Standard http://www.fci.be/uploaded_files/347a2002_en.doc


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Sandra King said:


> Berger Blanc Suisse is the official name.
> 
> Here is the FCI Breed Standard http://www.fci.be/uploaded_files/347a2002_en.doc


 
Oh for ****s sakes...I must be hallucinating, that'll teach me not to lick the dirt off the rear bumper of my truck.


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Dave Colborn said:


> If you sell them with a black nylon collar, you should be able to get much, much more, as then they fall into the super rare category of tactical GSD's.


That was a good'er =D>:mrgreen:


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Actually I would like a glow in the dark reflective GSD......that would not uh be tactical but would be a good summer SAR dog.


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## Sandra King (Mar 29, 2011)

Nancy Jocoy said:


> Actually I would like a glow in the dark reflective GSD......that would not uh be tactical but would be a good summer SAR dog.


Agreed, maybe its possible to breed some reflective stripes into them? :mrgreen:


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

Except being a little more intimidating like everyone has said colour is irrelevant. Someoe posted a video of a New xealand police dog, dog was light brown, not the finest dog but from the video most people agree the dog's biting was superb. 
Nox del lupo nero is here in Thailand and he's a very nice dog, can't figure out why they sold him anyway but it has nothing to do with his color.:-|


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Most, not all of the black GSDs I've seen seem to be of the finer boned look. Of course there was Titus Z .
IMHO the best looking black GSD ever.


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## Mike Valente (Sep 14, 2010)

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=537732

This dog is owned by a breeder in Texas, he is working on about 4 differant lines geared towards natural PP and this dog is probably his most serious dog, hard as hell and ready to do damage 24/7.. from what I've heard. I personally don't care for the fuzzballs or would ever think of owning one but this is one I would.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

So you have seen this dog work ?


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## Shane Woodlief (Sep 9, 2009)

Donna DeYoung said:


> I'm looking at some GSDs in Europe and there are alot of blacks being offered for sale. What is your opinion on solid blacks? Is it a fad? Are the prices higher for solid blacks? Do you like them?
> 
> I'm not personally too crazy about them. Some look like black sheepdogs with erect ears. But others are pretty substantial and gorgeous.
> Donna


Colors-Fads-Do you like black colors? #-o


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> They are wearing the newest technology in collars, the invisacollar. However, with the proper supertechovision equipment, you can see the collar.
> 
> It comes in invisa-black, and invisacamo.
> 
> What the **** is an ecru litter ?



This in fact is the newest technology.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mzWN4v2Ck0s

He is only invisible if you aren't looking.


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## Brian McConnell (Feb 6, 2010)

I have a black GSD and love him to death he is an import and we will get our sch 3 this summer .
Like the looks and how he works.Some of the blacks are coyote looking and they don't turn my crank but get me a substantial looking black and there is nothing looks as good.
If we are to have a good working dog it might as well look good as well.
Brian


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> They are wearing the newest technology in collars, the invisacollar. However, with the proper supertechovision equipment, you can see the collar.
> 
> It comes in invisa-black, and invisacamo.
> 
> What the **** is an ecru litter ?


"ecru" is a bit darker than the egg shell white--you still need the invisacollar on them, lol.


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## todd pavlus (Apr 30, 2008)

Mike Valente said:


> http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=537732
> 
> This dog is owned by a breeder in Texas, he is working on about 4 differant lines geared towards natural PP and this dog is probably his most serious dog, hard as hell and ready to do damage 24/7.. from what I've heard. I personally don't care for the fuzzballs or would ever think of owning one but this is one I would.


Is this the same dummy that breeds "dutch shepherd bandogs"[-(. http://steeltrapkennel.blogspot.com/2009/02/dutch-shepherd-bandogs.html

 "We also have a new, exciting, separate program combining our Bandogs with KNPV line Dutch Shepherds for what we are sure will be our ultimate offering in personal protection/companion/bodyguards."
Roger Williams
Steel-trap


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Oh I love threads like this one, Jeff you funny !!!


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Yep your solid black (at least on his back) pup is waiting for you Susan, unfortunately, I put on his inviso-collar and am having a bit of a problem figuring out just exactly where he is. 

I will have to get back to you on this.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Yep your solid black (at least on his back) pup is waiting for you Susan, unfortunately, I put on his inviso-collar and am having a bit of a problem figuring out just exactly where he is.
> 
> I will have to get back to you on this.


Yes, this reminds me, I am STILL looking for the last puppy you shipped me. I thought that was an empty crate until you told me about the fancy inviso-collar you shipped him with. Anyway, he was expensive and I can't find him anywhere. Please - the next time I buy a pup from you DO NOT ship him wearing one of those collars.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Follow the trail of people with bloody ankles. Look for the bottom of their jeans shaking back and forth. I put that with the instructions, however, he must of put the collar on, as it was not on when I sent him. It is the ninja instinct that brings that on.


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## milder batmusen (Jun 1, 2009)

I have heard as many of you all write that color of the dogs has nothing to do with working abilitys , but is that something we only guess or is it a fact :-k:-k

I think that what I have seen that many of the black and tan dogs seems to be the ones with alot of drive maybe Im wrong it just seems to look that way 

here is a couple of dogs 

Belshik von der eickenbruchke

Lubeck von der mahlermeister

Atenagårdens Tabo

Ink Zoterhund

Jouri Vant heuske

Eric von sportspak

may of the heuske knpv dogs are black and tan.

Im may just be randomly


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## Donna DeYoung (Jan 29, 2010)

Do I like black colors? not particularly. especially in Texas. In Spain Andalusian horses were associated with death/funeral hearses. So they were not selected for until it became a fad. I am trying to produce a black foal from my grey mare - because good black Andalusians, espec studs, are so hard to find.

Question on black GSDs came up because I saw some pretty expensive ones advertised. I've seen the coyote ones here in the US  that people mention ... and some more substantial ones that are coarser advertised from overseas. Coyote ones probably that way because of breeding, not so much color. or a mix of the two. breeding for color with weaker looking dogs.

While doing researh on black pigment in horses, I found this article.
http://www.horse-genetics.com/chestnut-horses-project.html

It explains the relationship between pigmentation in the embryo and possible behavior changes - due to the fact that pigment migrates during embryological development and ultimately affects the brain. (thats' the short version). Claims that solid colored black animals may be more docile than others.

There alot of examples on how certain color mutations affects behavior. Not that this matters to the original question. I just thought it was interesting. 

In horses, there are base 2 colors based on pigment- black and red. Everything else is a modification of those 2 pigments or a mutation. A bay horse is one that inherits agouti that restricts black to the points (like a siamese cat). If a horse does not inherit agouti, it will remain solid black. Unless it's red. Agouti doesn't affect red.

According to this article, In rats there is a " dramatic example of how selecting for color and pattern can cause selection for particular behavioural traits at the same time."

"selection for docile laboratory rats has led to over 80% of them being non agouti [solid color]."

It doesn't say anything about your invisible dogs, Jeff.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Donna DeYoung said:


> Do I like black colors? not particularly. especially in Texas.* In Spain Andalusian horses were associated with death/funeral hearses. So they were not selected for until it became a fad.* I am trying to produce a black foal from my grey mare - because good black Andalusians, espec studs, are so hard to find.




History Of The Andalusian Horse
The Andalusian horse originates from the rugged, hilly areas of the Iberian Peninsula and is one of the most ancient horse breeds. The Andalusian horse was developed in Southern Spain and although Andalusian horses were originally highly regarded as a calvary horse due to their agility and courage they became less favoured as a war horse when knights were heavily armoured and required heavier horses to carry them. However, Andalusian horses gained popularity again amongst cavalries with the introduction of firearms when a fast, agile horse was needed.
During the Renaissance grand riding academies were formed across Europe where dressage and high school riding evolved and Andalusian horses were popular due to their agility, impulsion and natural balance. In Spain, Andalusian horses were also the mounts of bull fighters.

http://www.equine-world.co.uk/about_horses/andalusian_horse.htm


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## Tamara Champagne (Jan 20, 2009)

Derek Milliken said:


> My old dog is black, but like others said above, he's from 2 carrier parents. I don't think color has anything to do with working ability, just be ready for a lifetime of telling JQP that no, he's purebred, no he's not a lab cross, yes there are black german shepherds....... Thought I should have got a damn sign at one point.


Max ISN'T a lab cross? :-o


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: It doesn't say anything about your invisible dogs, Jeff.

It is not all in the collar. They are in Ninja training.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Follow the trail of people with bloody ankles. Look for the bottom of their jeans shaking back and forth. I put that with the instructions, however, he must of put the collar on, as it was not on when I sent him. It is the ninja instinct that brings that on.



I would also suggest that Susan be quick with a can of spray paint. At least she can mark it up a bit to warn the world that it's loose.


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## Shade Whitesel (Aug 18, 2010)

I especially like the black with the white spot on the chest... Much rarer than solid black and more expensive! Of course you cant tell with the inviscollar on.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Donna DeYoung said:


> It explains the relationship between pigmentation in the embryo and possible behavior changes - due to the fact that pigment migrates during embryological development and ultimately affects the brain. (thats' the short version). Claims that solid colored black animals may be more docile than others..


We had a solid black dog on our team. Good working lines. Washed because the handler could not handle its dogs aggression (ongoing issue), and it attacked an operational team dog. 

I dont think it is related to color but I would sure want to substantiate that statement it is kind of like those who say a dog with more pigment has better scenting ability..then on the other hand some hunters say that less pigment is better......and I don't think coat color=pigment anyway. Isnt that more related to skin color?


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

From a science perspective, pigment is in both hair fiber AND skin tissue. What the breed judges consider "pigment", I've never been clear.



> There's two types of pigment (melanin).
> Eumelanin - dark brown and black pigment
> Pheomelanin - red and yellow (blonde) pigment


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Where's the horse forum? Naaaaaahhhhhhhh:-({|=


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Howard Gaines III said:


> Where's the horse forum? Naaaaaahhhhhhhh:-({|=


 
You're a worry Howard!

And it's nae nae Lol


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

maggie fraser said:


> And it's nae nae Lol


 Thank you Maggie for correcting my horsing around.
Now I've made an A$$ of myself....8-[


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Howard Gaines III said:


> Thank you Maggie for correcting my horsing around.
> Now I've made an A$$ of myself....8-[



No.......that's BRAAAAAAYYYYY! :razz: :GRIN:


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