# Question for the Ringers.....



## Jim Engel (Nov 14, 2007)

KNPV is a police certification test.

Schutzhund was in the beginning a breeding
test for the German Shepherd, and since this
was a Police dog if done correctly should test
for this function. How well it does so today
is another question; that was the intention,
that is what people say it is for.

Belgian Ring was historically less explicitly
a breeding or police specific test. Since there
are no Belgian Ring people here that I know of
( speak up if there are ) I will have to go elsewhere.

That leaves French Ring. I unserstand that forty
years ago it was basically a German Shepherd 
activity, but the purpose, historically and today,
in the mind of the French is not clear to me.

Is it a sport, and the dog just sports equipment,
with no particular expectation of producing a
line of police suitable dogs ?

Do the French believe that a good Ring dog is
a good police dog with little extra training ?

Or would they regard this as an irrelevant question ?

When they change the rules, is it based on the
concept of better selection and training for practical
police application ?

Where do the French government agencies get their
police dogs ?


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I have never heard anyone say anything about changing anything to satisfy a need for police or military. I think it is an autonomous sport. I believe that Belgian ring is the same.

I am not saying that a dog couldn't go to police work, just that it is a sport itself.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

I understand it was more of a breed worthyness test than anything Jim. As for the GSD dominating it .. I highly doubt it, maybe Campagne but not French Ring. As for satisfying a need for paramilitary probably not either. Though doesn't mean a dog with French Ring foundation would not be able to transfer those skills into the new job. I understand that a lot of the new wave of PSD Mals coming from Europe are coming from a Ringsport background, FWIW.


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

I was told that originally "ring" was coined for similar reasons as "circus ring" and the dogs performed (jumping and biting) and also bets were taken. Exercises were added and an actual sport evolved.

I know the removing of the jump "pits" was because it was reportedly becoming difficult to obtain soccer field locations for the Championships that would allow the digging up of the field.

I heard that the food between exercises was banned as some handlers were using food such as an apple to reward their dogs for the exercises. 

I know the rule that the dog must face down field was made as before it stated the dog must wait in placement until it was told to attack..but clever competitors would face their dog's rear down field. So as the competitors were more clever the rules got more precise.


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Jim Engel said:


> Where do the French government agencies get their
> police dogs ?


My friends in France that sell to the gov't just call when they have dogs that they want to sell and they make an appointment and come test the dogs and say "yeah" or "nay". I know it's a wait for the money, but hey that's typical gov't crap..slow to pay or get anything done..


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Geoff Empey said:


> I understand it was more of a breed worthyness test than anything Jim. As for the GSD dominating it .. I highly doubt it, maybe Campagne but not French Ring. As for satisfying a need for paramilitary probably not either. Though doesn't mean a dog with French Ring foundation would not be able to transfer those skills into the new job. I understand that a lot of the new wave of PSD Mals coming from Europe are coming from a Ringsport background, FWIW.


I believe the GSD used to dominate the sport. According to Les Bergers Belges (Wailly & Varlet):

1971 - 5 bergers belges aux selectifs ring.
1981 - 30 bergers belges aux selectifs.
1993 - 200 bergers belges aux selectifs.


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## Jim Engel (Nov 14, 2007)

Debbie Skinner said:


> I believe the GSD used to dominate the sport. According to Les Bergers Belges (Wailly & Varlet):
> 
> 1971 - 5 bergers belges aux selectifs ring.
> 1981 - 30 bergers belges aux selectifs.
> 1993 - 200 bergers belges aux selectifs.


Thank you, that was my recollection

This information was on the web site http://www.belgiandogs.org/

which was a tremendous resource, but it seems to be gone.

My recollection is that the change to a much lighter, more flexible suit
came in the same time period.

Do you have more information ?


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

:-k Are you thinking of getting a mal Jim?
Interesting question anyhow.


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## Jim Engel (Nov 14, 2007)

Timothy Stacy said:


> :-k Are you thinking of getting a mal Jim?
> Interesting question anyhow.


No, not right now, probably would get a dog from Dave if 
I were to train another breed, but I am pretty set in my ways.

Course if you were to get your dog under control and get
those last 12 protection points I might think about it.

Actually been working on a police dog book, have a couple 
hundred pages of text, but there is just so much to the subject....


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Debbie Skinner said:


> I believe the GSD used to dominate the sport. According to Les Bergers Belges (Wailly & Varlet):
> 
> 1971 - 5 bergers belges aux selectifs ring.
> 1981 - 30 bergers belges aux selectifs.
> 1993 - 200 bergers belges aux selectifs.


Interesting do you know what the other breeds were? Was there other sizable dogs like Bouviers and Briards in the early 70's that made a difference competing? 

Jim .. This website has a lot of info not on French Ring specifically but more just on the Berger Belge so a lot the story is intertwined. But be aware if you don't read French you'll need to go to a site like Babelfish for translation. http://www.camidecatheric.org/HISTORIQUE.htm


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Jim Engel said:


> No, not right now, probably would get a dog from Dave if
> I were to train another breed, but I am pretty set in my ways.
> 
> Course if you were to get your dog under control and get
> ...


Guess your not getting a malinois, since you can't on me getting control of GrizzlyLOL. I'd like a Vom Dreieck GSD myself. He had a male puppy there that literally hung on my pants for 20 minutes fighting the whole time with pups playing and jumping over him. Oh and the face biters WOW It was worst if I ignored them. I wanted to take one home right then and there. Told Jeff O about him but he's overstocked at the moment.

Anyhow the book sounds long, I think I'll need the CD version.

Debbie had some good info!


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## Francis Metcalf (Oct 10, 2009)

I love working dog history!

I had dinner with Leon Destailleur who is pretty much the founder of French Ring and he said sportsmen would come to his bar on the Belgian border to play ring and smoke cigarettes which were banned from France for a while. So it was a kind of speak easy. Also they had cock fights there. 

But of course it originated as a Police Dog test. Why else would it have the same core exercises as all the other sports be it from Holland, Belgium, Germany or France. 

I look at it as each county put there national character into sport. Also you can look at it like a cultural cross fade from a Latin based country like France to a Teutonic country like Germany with Belgium being the balance point. For instance France is on one side and then the spirit of the sport slowly changes as you go into Belgian to Holland, to Germany. Look at the decoys on the French side, their is lots of movement and as you head toward Germany the movement diminishes. (this is not chronological as French Ring came from Belgium) 

The Dutch have always been great tradesmen (Dutch East India company). The French are into perfection and coordination (fencing, art, legerdemain) The Germans are brilliant engineers (all the great cars), and the Swiss are neutral, thus Mondio, the Vitronox of dog sport. 

Just a theory! However what a blessing for the Malinois, as each county has distinct gene pools that are selected for the various sports specialties. This allows for cross pollination, and a leaky stud book. This happens more than people think, look at Cheyenne down from the great KNPV stud Eik d2p (hmm the 2 neighborhoods?). Look at the the pedigrees of the Perle de Tourbiere dogs with lots of Othar Noellerie. Look at Elgos (French to Belgium) Look at all the French dogs straight from Belgium lines. It all works together very nicely.

Also the word Ring is like boxing ring, not a ring at all but a place for a contest. One time I paced out the actual battle field in the coliseum in Rome and it was almost exactly the size of a ring field! So the Gladiators fought on a ring field too! 

Francis


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## Jim Engel (Nov 14, 2007)

Francis Metcalf said:


> I love working dog history!
> 
> 
> Just a theory! However what a blessing for the Malinois, as each county has distinct gene pools that are selected for the various sports specialties. This allows for cross pollination, and a leaky stud book. This happens more than people think, look at Cheyenne down from the great KNPV stud Eik d2p (hmm the 2 neighborhoods?). Look at the the pedigrees of the Perle de Tourbiere dogs with lots of Othar Noellerie. Look at Elgos (French to Belgium) Look at all the French dogs straight from Belgium lines. It all works together very nicely.
> ...


Yes, this is a huge advantage for the Malinois as a breed.


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## Tim Lynam (Jun 12, 2009)

Jim,

You may have come across this in your searches. It was written by one of my mentors (Jean-Michel Moreau) in 1991. I cut the following paragraph out of the body of the article for your convenience. The link to the full, copywrited article, follows below that. Also note the comparisons of Sch. to Ring in the article. Good luck with your book!

"Ring is, in many ways, closer to real street work than most other forms of training, and most Ring dogs can be quickly switched to street work. As a matter of fact, at the time that I was training director for the Paris security firm, Cave Canem, many of us there were using the same dogs for street work during the week and competition on the weekends. My German Shepherd, "Lork," who was vice-champion in Ring and champion in Campagne, was also a working security dog. Daniel Debonduwe's dog, "Lento," Ring champion and Lork's brother "Lobo," another Campagne champion, were working in the same company. Besides, they were also fantastic pets. The French army canine trainers have turned to the Ring methodologies, having found that it provides a greater margin of success with a higher percentage of dogs."

Geoff,

I'm still looking for the list of specific breeds that were accepted for competition back then. (Before "Blue Dogs" were allowed here in the USA.) I'll post it when I find it, unless someone else does first. 


The full article (too big to post here) can be found at:

http://www.uwsp.edu/psych/dog/LA/Redenbach .htm

The Basic Philosophy of Ring Sport
by Jean-Michel Moreau &
Chris Redenbach ([email protected])
Copyright, 1991 (originally appeared in Dog Sports Magazine)


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## Jim Engel (Nov 14, 2007)

Geoff Empey said:


> Jim .. This website has a lot of info not on French Ring specifically but more just on the Berger Belge so a lot the story is intertwined. But be aware if you don't read French you'll need to go to a site like Babelfish for translation. http://www.camidecatheric.org/HISTORIQUE.htm



Yes, other than Ruel the other four men at the top played significant roles in Bouvier des Flandres history also. A couple of the pictures of Lakinois have also been published as pictures of early Bouviers.

Really interesting sight, wish I could read french. ( I can pick out the kennel names and a few things.)


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Tim Lynam said:


> The full article (too big to post here) can be found at:
> 
> http://www.uwsp.edu/psych/dog/LA/Redenbach .htm
> 
> ...


That's a great article Tim thanks. Looks like a condensed version of it is on the info page of the NARA website. 



Jim Engel said:


> Really interesting sight, wish I could read french. ( I can pick out the kennel names and a few things.)


Those old pictures sure are awesome for sure, a thousand words in any language in some of them. Try bablefish as there is a lot of great info there, I'm lucky as I can get by au francais and my wife is fully bilingual for the stuff I can't get. http://babelfish.yahoo.com/


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Jim Engel said:


> Thank you, that was my recollection
> 
> This information was on the web site http://www.belgiandogs.org/
> 
> ...


My husband Ron speaks French and he can ask older trainers in France. He's much better at speaking French than reading it. I know I have the "art of ring" Dewbondew's (sp?) book, but can't find it at the moment, which may contain the history.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Jim some more stuff to peruse off that site. It is in frames and a bit hard to navigate if you haven't seen it that's probably why. http://www.camidecatheric.org/MENTORS.htm Has a lot of the main players of Ring people, kennels and dogs from the 70's up.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Debbie Skinner said:


> My husband Ron speaks French and he can ask older trainers in France. He's much better at speaking French than reading it. I know I have the "art of ring" Dewbondew's (sp?) book, but can't find it at the moment, which may contain the history.



You can download his book for free here .. it still is in French though. http://danieldebonduwe2.free.fr/


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Geoff Empey said:


> Interesting do you know what the other breeds were? Was there other sizable dogs like Bouviers and Briards in the early 70's that made a difference competing?
> 
> Regretfully the Berges Belges book doesn't include details on the other breeds at all. However some interesting details on the evolution of the malinois in France:
> 
> ...


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Geoff Empey said:


> You can download his book for free here .. it still is in French though. http://danieldebonduwe2.free.fr/


Thanks..now he has a project for Thanksgiving!


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Debbie Skinner said:


> Thanks..now he has a project for Thanksgiving!


Ron just skimmed through and he has nothing on the history.


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Jim Engel said:


> Thank you, that was my recollection
> 
> 
> Do you have more information ?


A great source of information would be the Dupont's who publish the Sans Laisse magazine (working dog magazine of France). Mme Dupont has a FRIII Beauceoron female as well and would know the history of the working Beauceron as well. I believe they still publish the Bas Rouge as well (Beauceron Club mag). They speak French so that would be the only stumbling block. Jean-Yves Reuger writes for them though and speaks fluent English (Bouvier enthusiast).


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## Francis Metcalf (Oct 10, 2009)

The French Army base that is the center for their military dog program is called Suippes. They have a coffee table sized book on the history of the military working dog. I have it, its all in French and very cool. 

Suippes has a great ring club right on the grounds. I have bought some dogs there. Thats where Jerry Souvrain de Lorain used to train. Jerry looks like a scrawny sport dog when you see him on video, but when you watch him train and see the pressure he is under, or stare him straight in the eye I think you might change your mind. Just an example that shows that allot of French Ring dogs are tougher than they look because of how they are worked and raised.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: I love working dog history!

I had dinner with Leon Destailleur who is pretty much the founder of French Ring and he said sportsmen would come to his bar on the Belgian border to play ring and smoke cigarettes which were banned from France for a while. So it was a kind of speak easy. Also they had cock fights there. 

Ok, so when did French ring start ?? I have always heard late 1800's/early 1900's so this must be out and it must be a newer sport.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Geoff Empey said:


> Interesting do you know what the other breeds were? Was there other sizable dogs like Bouviers and Briards in the early 70's that made a difference competing?


The SCC approved breed list for French Ring can be found at http://www.cun-cbg.com/La_CUN/habilitation_mordant.php. It's changed a little over the years, but not by much. I have an old FR demo video at home somewhere, it was a demo in France that was an attempt to show every breed authorized to compete in FR doing it. There's a Collie on it along with Briard, Picard, and some other less common breeds. Plus of course the Malinois and GSD. If I remember right the Malinois is Tino. Have to say the Collie was kind of cool, big old Lassie dog doing bitework LOL



> Ok, so when did French ring start ?? I have always heard late 1800's/early 1900's so this must be out and it must be a newer sport.


According to my research, in 1880 Edmond Moecheron and others began giving “police dog” demonstrations throughout France, Belgium and Holland. These demonstrations usually took place in a fenced off area, ie a “ring” and included obedience, agility and bitework. Edmond is the most famous of these people, with his BSDs Dax, Nic & Miss. He is considered by many to be the "Father of Ringsport". I put together an article tracking the history of the Belgian in regards to police/military/protection sports awhile back, it's BSD focused but does go into detail about some of the origins of the Ring sports http://www.dantero.com/belg_history.php


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Looking back at some of the history links above I came across this well known photo. It's amazing how small these dogs were in the begining of ring sport days. I saw a import from Belguim over the weekend and I was really turned off by how big the dog was at only 8 months. Seems like more and more breeders here in the US brag about their 100lbs malinois. Is this what a malinois was truly supposed to look like? Just asking.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Timothy Stacy said:


> Looking back at some of the history links above I came across this well known photo. It's amazing how small these dogs were in the begining of ring sport days. I saw a import from Belguim over the weekend and I was really turned off by how big the dog was at only 8 months. Seems like more and more breeders here in the US brag about their 100lbs malinois. Is this what a malinois was truly supposed to look like? Just asking.


The original Malinois ranged in size, but none that I can find any mention of were 100 lbs. Tjop was one of the earliest "prototypes", a dog that people at the time felt was an exceptional example of the breed, and he was 57cm, which is only 22.5 inches. I have found mentions of larger dogs then Tjop, but I can't find the references right now. 

These links have some photos of the older dogs, and also some good descriptions.

http://www.hondenaus.com/malinois_origins.html
http://malinoispedigree.com/stamboom/terminology.php


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## Timothy Stacy (Jan 29, 2009)

Thanks Kadi, those are some of the originals huh. I thought these 100lbs pound dogs are really getting away from what a malinois is "suppose to be". American thought always seems to be bigger is better. I also see dogs like Zodt and others who impress me with their characteristics but make me wonder about their true origins. I hear people say how these big dogs maintain their agility, hey right. Maybe for their size but it's like comparing Shaq to Michael Jordan. Yeah Shaq can move good "compared to people his size" but..... 

Well, guess I'm slightly off topic


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## andreas broqvist (Jun 2, 2009)

I have a breed book from the 40s. When the dogs wher more ore less only used for work.
Doberman was tha size of a bigger pinsher, Rotty was around 30 kgs. Even Dogue de bordeaux was a nice loking working type dog. lookt like a read pitbull. I think ther maximum weight was 40 kgs  Now days thos dogs are around 80 kg and of no use to anyone....


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## andreas broqvist (Jun 2, 2009)

Maby the difrens in the sport from now and then makes the dogs bigger.
Look at thos Sch movies from the 30-40. Its almost ringsport. Se one of todays rotwailers climb a 2 meter wal witha dumbel in his mothe 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NsBi0PehfAM&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KgVpKKqA49A&feature=response_watch


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## Jim Engel (Nov 14, 2007)

*RDigging in my archives*

After a thanksgiving dinner and a trip home, I spent some time
digging in my pile of Belgan Shepherd references and came across
something I had forgotten.

Groenendael Jules du Moulin won a defense or police competition
in Paris several times, starting in 1908.

Later, in 1913 and 1914 he was the winner of the first two 
Belgian ring championships.

Whether these 1908 events were precursers of the French Ring
trials, or some sort of independant promotional event at a fair or 
exposition is an interesting question.


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