# Rich boy attitude



## Guest

I'm looking for ideas other than the run-of-the-mill suggestions I normally get for how to get my dog to bite. He will NOT play with anyone except me, and he won't even do that if anyone's watching. I've been told he has no prey drive, but he's killed animals. He's as playful as they come with me, in my house, but outside he barely glances at anyone. He acts autistic. He gets most riled up if a man stares at him and even worse (better!) when he's on a leash, in the car, etc. 

He's *extremely* territorial, and is positively vicious when crated if anyone approached him other than me, (mostly dogs). He is not interested in children at all, but is ok around them. He's very tolerant of other dogs, but by the time he's finally mad, he's MAD. He has serious aggression in some areas, but when a helper is agitating him, he thinks they're playing with him when they get very close, and gets annoyed and ignores them. He can be aggressive to people, but only if he absolutely has no idea who they are or if they stare at him, point at him, etc. (on neutral ground) and if they do something he doesn't like on his own turf (like touch my stuff). I know this can be channelled; I just need ideas how I can do it sort of by myself. I don't have many volunteers; he's not very pleasant. :lol: Takes after his dear old Mom. One person (I won't name names :wink: ) said they're \"sick of his rich boy attitude.\" That's a good summary I guess; he continually hurts the feelings of well-meaning family members who think he's going to warm up to them...nope. I have to admit, I like it  :lol: .


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## Mike Schoonbrood

So he's never bitten a sleeve on a decoy?


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## Guest

He's never been worked by a decoy with a sleeve.


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## Mike Schoonbrood

If nothing else works, there's 2 things I'd try.

First, this is probably the least pressure on the dog.... have a decoy assault YOU, this is what was explained to me recently by a guy I worked with a couple weeks ago, I believe he explained that it brings out more of a pack protective instinct rather than directly threatening the dog, and might get the dog riled up if he believes you're really being hurt. Have a decoy beat the hell outta you with a baseball bat... or if you're not into that kinda thing, a foam swimming pool noodle type thing or 1.5\" pipe insulation from home depot or something else that's soft.

Secondly, have a decoy that knows what the hell he's doing agitate the dog wearing a sleeve and use something like a clatter stick to try and put some defensive pressure on your dog (how old is he again??). Then if the dog does bite, have the decoy start working the dog with prey movements and slip the sleeve. Cujo didn't know what the hell to do with the sleeve when he first was introduced to it, and he still isn't very worked up about it when I take him to see new decoys in a new location, but putting a little defensive pressure on him really gets him to come out, after that he bites alot better. Once he's kinda got the understanding of what he's supposed to do, you can start putting him on a bungie tie out and having the decoy running back n forth n really work him up, but that's later once he's understanding what to do.

Also, if he plays with you, I think it'd be beneficial to get ahold of a sleeve, buy one, borrow one, whatever, and just play with it on your arm in the house with him so he learns that the sleeve is for biting and it's OK to bite it when it's on someones arm. Alot of people don't like the idea of \"Decoying\" for your own dog, but if it's a game and you're not doing anything defensive with your dog I don't see what the big deal is. I've seen a guy run out into the training field wearing a bite suit get chased down by his own dog, the dog was in prey and just playing with daddy.

On another note -- Cujo is more interested in a sleeve when you keep it moving and have someone WEARING it, if you just drag it on the floor he doesn't care too much about it. His favorite toy is a leg sleeve, maybe I should train him for french ring LOL.


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## Guest

I was planning on buying a sleeve. I'm not worried about having him bite me either; he won't even rough-house with me, but he and my ex really used to get rough. I think the bat thing could get old unless he gets worked up the very first time :lol: . Caleb doesn't care about new places at all-he doesn't really care about much :? . I don't think he's the type to see a decoy as prey; he tends to back off as soon as the threat is gone. He doesn't really care to chase a person; once they're gone, he's fine  . He takes a LOT of pressure to make him \"come out\" at all-well, except if you stare at him :lol: . It's hard to make him really see something as a serious threat and not a game (in which he has zero interest  ). It has to be 100% real with him, every time, or I get nothing. ARRGH! :evil: This makes working with a novice (another novice besides moi) very tricky, if not impossible.


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## Guest

Can no one help a damsel in distress?


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## Bob Scott

Jen, I would be really cautious about working him yourself, on a sleeve. Without a LOT of understanding about different drives, it would be to easy for the inexpierienced to put their own dog in defence. When that happens, the dog looses trust in that person. That could be what happened with the dog and your ex. If your ex played TO rough, it may have brought to much stress and he no longer views game time as fun. If he does ok in the house, work with that. When he's wound up, bring out a rag on a rope, or something similar. The key is the rope. If he chases a ball, then he has the ball, and no longer needs to interact with you. With the rag on a rope, the game is playing with you, NOT just getting the rag. IMHO, to many dogs are started in defence to early. This is a BIG cause of stress and avoidance.


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## Mike Schoonbrood

Bob Scott said:


> IMHO, to many dogs are started in defence to early. This is a BIG cause of stress and avoidance.


Absolutely. I'd also like to clarify that when we put defensive pressure on Cujo to get him to bite, that's only when he's working with a new decoy in a new location and he's not focusing on them, he's never been pushed into avoidance and never worked beyond his limits. When he's with his regular decoy in his usual location and does awesome, it's 90% prey work.


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## Hil Harrison

I know here at the club Jenni they will tie the dog on a long leash onto a pole or something like that. The decoy will start aggitating him by running back and fore just to work him up, but far away that he cant reach the sleeve. At a certain point the decoy will run in and let him have a go at biting, them run off. Then it starts all over again. Handler dissapears out of view at th beginning .Just give him a few tries and if it works stop while hes winning. You can always start off with a large canvas cloth instead of a sleeve but the tactic is the same. 

Tied to a pole they learn to work for themselves instead of having the handler there as back-up. At a certain point when hes got the hang of it you can appear and encourage him to \"get the decoy\". 

Some dogs develop prey drive later and some just have defence drive. This system has worked on dogs at the club with both drives. :wink:


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## Guest

Thanks for the replies, but he's never bitten a sleeve, except a hidden one a few times. He's very frustrating...and takes a lot of pressure (unless you just look at him for a few seconds) to go into defense. I don't really know if it's even defense. Maybe it's just territorial aggression...I just don't know :? :?: .

Bob, he is ALL PLAY when tugging w/me. He drags me around the house with it, but he will not play rough with me at all...it's more like he recognizes the size difference between me and my ex...(about 120lbs difference), or maybe some male/female thing than a defense issue. He was just playing with him, too. He never went into defense-it was all just goofing around, and Caleb always started it, and Caleb was never the one to call it quits. Keep in mind that he has not seen Caleb since he was a year old, so he was much different mentally than he is now. 

I was just thinking of getting a sleeve to tug with so he sees it as an ok item to bite. Right now, he only will play with ME and HIS OWN toys. We've tried staking him, and unless the decoy approaches in a threatening manner, he acts like he's not there :x . I have given up the idea of him ever interacting with someone else in play.  

I have raised yet ANOTHER snob...


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## Mike Schoonbrood

Your dog obviously has something in him, you just needa work with someone to bring it out, it doesn't sound like you're going out there and trying to work at it twice a week which is what you really ought to be doing with him. If I gave up everytime my dog wouldn't bite or wouldn't show interest in biting I woulda quit a long time ago, if all it takes is \"looking at him\" then have the decoy \"look at him\".


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## Guest

<sarcastically> Geez, Mike. Never thought about having someone look at him :lol: . I KNOW that's what I need to build on; NO ONE WILL DO IT!! ARGH! It's so frustrating when these \"experts\" called trainers can't figure out how to do anything with this dog b/c he won't play with them. And I can't just find any old person to help, because they won't know what they're doing if/when he DOES go to bite them...so I'd be back to square one anyway. You and Patrick lucked out w/each other to help your dogs. I'd work Caleb every night if I had someone to help me. 

Why do I want my dog to play with a decoy anyway? :? I'd much rather focus on real life scenarios, minus obvious equipment. 

I really need to move, or I'm stuck. This is the worst place on Earth to try to train a PPD. The whole mentality of people is against me; Sch. is about as hardcore as I can find...


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## Guest

7mins is very short. Mike, every time I try to explain what I need someone to do w/Caleb, they just try to sell me a dog who \"has it\", saying Caleb doesn't, because he's not interested in them. I seriously am starting to think it's an ego thing, and when someone can't get him to bite right off the bat, they'd rather say the dog is shit than say they need to work him differently... :roll:


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## Greg Long

Jenni, 
I just dont think Caleb has what it takes.  

Why dont you let me take him off your hands :wink: 

Ill give you a great deal on something that does have \"it\"   

Greg


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## Mike Schoonbrood

Jenni Williams said:


> 7mins is very short. Mike, every time I try to explain what I need someone to do w/Caleb, they just try to sell me a dog who \"has it\", saying Caleb doesn't, because he's not interested in them. I seriously am starting to think it's an ego thing, and when someone can't get him to bite right off the bat, they'd rather say the dog is shit than say they need to work him differently... :roll:


OK it's 12 minute edit time now lol.

I understand your predicament, it's annoying I know, I still get the \"you're nuts for trying to work that dog\" looks from some people who have never seen Cujo perform on his \"home field\", so when he's in a new place that stinks of dog, they think he's useless because the smells in the grass are more appetizing than the decoy running around, which is why we introduce defensive pressure, to snap him outta the \"sniff the grass\" mode and send him into \"oh yeah I gotta bite this guy\" mode. He's getting there, it's just a problem that developed because he's only ever worked in one location with one decoy, once he realizes that biting happens everywhere with anyone, I'm sure that'll change.

How far from Chicago are you? Have you looked at the Chicago working dog forums and seen if there's someone out there who'll run around for 10 or 20 minutes with your dog for $20 and a 6 pack? It's not even about playing with the dog, it's about working the dog in whatever way the dog can be triggered. Have you ever spoken to the guy over at Diehl K9? I think he's around the IL area.


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## Guest

Greg, I hate you :lol: . Could you just attempt to be helpful, please? Shed some light on the big jerk? Your take? 

Mike, I have looked around Chi-town and, no, I don't know Diehl K9. I'll check it out. Your situation is similar; you see your dog in a different light than strangers. Caleb doesn't care about new places and pretty much acts the same, except he's SUPER territorial at home, and obviously is not so territorial other places. So, while I don't have grass-sniffing issues, I have \"...and you are....?\" attitude just about everywhere! :x I am just determined that I'm going to channel the pure hatred I see in him sometimes into something productive in his training. And ask anyone...once I grab on, I don't let go...someone once said I'm \"very sharp and don't out.\" 

Thanks for the extra edit time, pal!


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## Mike Schoonbrood

I often think I should do some sort of tracking with Cujo, because he has a nose that never stops, his nose is 1000x better than his bitework, but he's never been trained to do anything other than find toys that I hide around the house. When he's sniffing for something it keeps him so focused on the scent that he ignores EVERYTHING else, n even if he can visually SEE what he's looking for, he doesn't pay attention to it, he wants to SMELL its location... it's kinda cool watching a dog act this way, but it's really annoying that he wants to sniff EVERYTHING when he's not home lol.


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## Guest

Love your avatar! Lyka is precious. Makes me want a puppy...then I think about Apollo and change my mind. :lol: 

I've only done limited tracking a few times with Caleb, but he did really well. He cut the tracks in a straight line most of the time and was really accurate. But then, so was Widget 8) . I guess this should probably move to \"tracking\" if we continue this...

Go ahead, Greg. Make your snide comments about Widge's tracking. Not our fault if your dogs don't even WANT to find you :lol: , and mine will kill themselves running toward me :wink: .


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## Greg Long

I believe Mike Diehl is in Indiana.Ive heard good things about him.

Ok,Ok Jen.
Caleb is from some very slow maturing lines.I think he is still immature and a little unsure of himself.The aggression is there but I dont believe he was properly imprinted so it is a challenge.He may have \"prey drive\" but IMO I dont think that will work for him now.He is just not interested in having fun with anyone except Jenni.Thats funny,Jenni is the same way :lol: .
Anyway,I do think Caleb is trainable and could do protection work but he needs training EVERYDAY for awhile at least.His confidence needs to be built by having someone stare at him and then when he acts aggressively(which he will do)they turn away and then run and he gets to chase them off.This is where I would start with this dog.Reinforce this behavior and eventually let him get closer and closer to the decoy.

Jenni,you need to develop a working relationship with him not just a pet/owner relationship and quit treating your dog like a ........well nevermind   :wink: 

Greg


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## Mike Schoonbrood

Greg Long said:


> I believe Mike Diehl is in Indiana.Ive heard good things about him.


I know someone getting a pup outta one of his litters at the end of the year, from what I saw and what he told me about the dogs, they're awesome! If he's anywhere near you and offers any type of training service, it'd probably be worthwhile to talk to him and check him out.


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## Guest

Greg, you need to move to Chicago. You're the only one who will stare at him, and he doesn't like you anyway :lol: . Takes after me, I guess :lol: . You know better than anyone how I'm trying to work with him, and he's doing MUCH better. I had him and Apollo in a platz/bleib for HOURS last night while I scrubbed the floor that they had \"decorated.\" The old Caleb would've charmed his way out of it, but the new Caleb (reluctantly) sighs and does what I ask  . I've been working on obstacles and all that...I'm making definite progress.

Any \"around the house\" suggestions for strengthening the working relationship? Stuff I can do without a helper to make the transition to asking him to bite easier?

I'll check out Mike Diehl...Indiana is closer than Oklahoma. :wink:


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## Guest

Can't find Mike Diehl. Lots of stuff about him, but the only direct link is to a Mike Diehl in Florida. Are we sure he's in Indiana?


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## Greg Long

Isnt he the one that owned Stormfront's Brawnson?

I thought he was in Indianapolis but maybe Im thinking about someone else.

Greg


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## Mike Schoonbrood

Jenni Williams said:


> Can't find Mike Diehl. Lots of stuff about him, but the only direct link is to a Mike Diehl in Florida. Are we sure he's in Indiana?


http://www.diehlspolicek9training.com/


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## Guest

Thanks. The only one I had found was similar, but not that exact site; did he move?


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## Tim Martens

a tip i would offer with a dog of this type....being that you plan on trying to work him in only defense, you should only be doing it with a qualified trainer present and ALWAYS be mindful of your dog out in public. once he learns it's ok to channel this aggression in training, he may look to do it in situations where you might not want him to so having control of him at ALL times is a must if you value your early possessions.

without seeing the dog, it's hard to get a grasp on what is going on in his head. it may be that this aggression he shows is just that. a show. looking beneath that, it could be fear. and fear leads to the fight/flight scenario. that is why it's so much easier to work a dog in prey at the start and then bring out the defense instead of vice versa. i can see your frustations as the SchH people have no use for a dog like yours. if you find the right person, you could very well have a monster on your hands if you and he/she are willing to put in the time...


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## Greg Long

Tim,

Thats very true.If she turns on that side of her dog then she is responsible for it and she must have TOTAL control.

Greg


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## Guest

Thanks for responding Tim. I don't know if it's truly defense or territorial aggression, like I said. And if it is in fact defense, there's no way I can do that by myself anyway. I need someone else, and THERE IS NO ONE  :x . He needs every scenario to be 100% believeable, and he needs the decoy to be a stranger. If they touch him, he thinks it's a game, and he walks away-no response. He's much harder when you stare at him than if you walk up and flank him. :?

He's ok in public, very aloof, but I did notice that ever since the time I spent working him with Mr.Banned and Blocked, he' s had a much shorter fuse, and now has a pretty impressive \"watch 'em.\" So, at least he's responding to my commands a little. He's not crazy or dangerous in public; he's actually very careful in the situations he decides warrant a reaction. He waits for someone to cross a specific line before he does anything at all. I actually thought he'd be sharper than he's turned out to be. He's a thinker. Now I just need him to be a doer. :wink: 

I don't think prey/play ever would've worked for him. Ever since he was very small, he's only tolerated attention from my ex and I. He growled at a guest at 4mos old b/c she tried to give him a bath. He avoids interaction with people, or I should say ignores them. An example: I take him to my Grandma's for dinner every Sunday. My uncles think every week is going to be the magic week when Caleb decides he likes them. He'll stand right next to them, but if they pet him, he looks disgusted and just walks away...not exactly running terrified. Of course, certain folks like to tell me he has weak nerves, but I really don't see any evidence of that...fine with new places, scary obstacles, etc. I don't have much experience with weak nerved dogs ,but I would think they would respond defensively or just run when agitated. What do you do with a dog who just looks at you funny? (If you can get him to look at you :roll: )

Greg's worked him-what do you think, Greg? Can you describe my oddball to Tim so he can get a more accurate personality picture? I wouldn't mind Tim's input, since now he's unbanned :lol: .


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## Tim Martens

in thinking about this further, i think i might skip the whole sleeve thing at first and go right to a bite suit in a situation where you think his aggression is really that and not fear. maybe have someone in a suit come into your backyard with you and \"attack\" you and see how he reacts. if he runs away and barks from a distance, then maybe it is fear he is showing. i can't tell you how many houses i've gone to where i've been dispatched to an alarm at the house and while checking the backyard run into some snarling, growling dog that when i went in the backyard the dog maintained about a 50 foot radius from me and just barked (i have to say that all those times i've done it alone as my backup officer was too chicken to go with me).

i'm just thinking out loud here. i've never trained or been around a dog like you're describing. someone suggested the above scenario with a sleeve. i'm just thinking that a suit will be safer for the decoy and also more real looking to the dog...


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## Guest

Yeah, I need to save some money for a suit though! You know what chihuahua spinal surgery runs these days?  

I think he's capable of \"forward aggression\"; he just REALLY needs to know it's necessary. Since the cat's out of the bag anyway, I'll say that we had one really encouraging scenario w/him in Okla. We tracked Greg through some woods on land he'd never been on, and he found him fairly quickly (minus a few seconds where horses ran 3 feet from us  ) and actually jumped over a small creek and aggressively apprehended Greg. I was stunned. I did not expect him to jump the creek, and dropped the leash. Phenomenal handling on my part  . The believability of the scenario and the element of surprise are key with him. That's what makes me think he's even worth training. I wouldn't think I'd be attacked if I knew when and where :wink: .


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## Greg Long

He a tough one.He does NOT have weak nerves.He is VERY aloof.The most aloof dog Ive ever seen.Staring does seem to trigger an aggressive response,not much else does.
I felt we made definite progress but we didnt get to work with him long enough.Its not something thats going to be solved in just a few sessions.
He has more territorial aggression than anything.

The staring gets what I feel is defensive aggression.This is tricky to work with.

I felt like the most progress we made was when we did a short track in a strange location and when he found the decoy we got some forward aggression and when he showed this the decoy was chased off..I felt like that was something we could build on.

And yes I tried prey work...he makes you look like an idiot. :x 

I could get him biting if I had enough time but I kind of felt like there was a monster in there somewhere. He needs much more control if that is going to be brought out.

Greg


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## Guest

HOLY S*&%!!! Look at our posts! Scary    :lol: !

Thanks, though. I wanted someone who knows more than I do (if such a person exists-buy my DVD) to explain what his personality (or lack of ) is like.


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## Mike Schoonbrood

Good thinking about the bite suit Tim, I suggested using a sleeve simply because, well, it's affordable  But a suit would be better, also for a dog that doesn't \"target\" because there is no \"prey\" to help guide the dog TO a target, it might be a lil risky working with just a sleeve when you're pissing off a dog like that :lol: I mean, Cujo goes for whatever the easiest thing is to bite, if you have a big hard sleeve on one arm and nothing on the other one, he's been known to come off a bite and go for the unprotected arm because it looks easier, a suit just leaves hands and face, you can tuck your hands inside the sleeve, it's the handlers duty to make sure the dog doesn't target the face.


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## Guest

Mike, not to sound totally psycho, but what the hell. Retargeting is NATURAL. Not something I'd be super upset over. If a wolf were taking down an animal with the intention of killing it, it doesn't grab on one spot and hang there until the thing gets sick of it and commits suicide. It darts in, attacks, darts back out, and in again, trying to find the most vulnerable points. Cujo knows damn well he won't get anywhere with that sleeve. :wink:


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## Tim Martens

Jenni Williams said:


> Mike, not to sound totally psycho, but what the hell. Retargeting is NATURAL. Not something I'd be super upset over. If a wolf were taking down an animal with the intention of killing it, it doesn't grab on one spot and hang there until the thing gets sick of it and commits suicide. It darts in, attacks, darts back out, and in again, trying to find the most vulnerable points. Cujo knows damn well he won't get anywhere with that sleeve. :wink:


not true. be careful not to anthropomorphize here. if the helper slips the sleeve and runs away, the dog has \"driven off\" his opponent and therefor won the battle. 

just in thinking, i believe another thing that might help your dog is some group agitation. the way this works is to tie out a few dogs on a chainlink fence (obviously far enough apart so they aren't a danger to each other). the other dogs obviously have to be well versed in prey/sleeve work for this to work. the helper runs back and forth agitating the dogs and gradually goes down the line giving bites to the dogs. when the other dogs are pulling and lunging at the decoy, it pulls the fence and will excite your dog, plus seeing all the other dogs get all worked up might increase his interest. just another idea for you....


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## Guest

Tim, I pleasantly disagree  . I'm talking about when a dog is in a very serious, life or death fight. I'm not talking about driving away an opponent. I mean when there is an actual fight going on, not just when he's trying to dominate and overcome the attacker. I have seen (and felt) a dog trying his hardest to gnaw around on that sleeve to find where my arm was hidden, and then retarget when he couldn't get a good crushing grip on it. Also, dogs that are never trained with a sleeve (at least a visible one) don't seem to bite just once and hang on for dear life; they transfer with sharp, tearing bites (that hurt like hell w/no equipment :x ) I think if a dog thinks it's serious, he will bite differently than if it's a game. Isn't this why dogs have to be trained to use the proverbial \"full-mouth grip?\"

I have seen one of my dogs try his best to defeat someone who was a SERIOUS life or death threat. He darted in and out in fast, tearing bites on any vulnerable areas he could find, much like I've seen wild animals do to actually kill, not just intimidate and chase away, an enemy. Go ahead, say I'm nuts; that what this board is great for!  

I've tried a form of the group agitation. He climbed the fence and left  . Plays with others about as well as I do. 

I truly appreciate your trying to throw me suggestions. Please don't stop because you think I'm psychotic.


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## Tim Martens

well if that's the case and you're bound and determined to get this dog to work and willing to put the time in to figure out how to do it, you're a better person than i. i would have started over a long time ago....


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## Guest

Do you just mean the last part where I said he left? Most of my post was in relation to bite theories. I was curious to know if we were even talking about the same thing :?: . 

I don't agree with the philosophy that you just start over every time something is hard. He's a vicious beast sometimes (in a good way, occasionally); I need to find a trainer who isn't intimidated by a challenge. I just don't see what's so hard about staring at a dog when it's MY dollar :?: :? . He bottom line just will NOT engage in a game with anyone but me, and sorry if you disagree, and you may be 100% right, but I just think they're perfectly capable of discerning a real situation from a game. I can't see how a tug is prey anyway. He's killed a few animals (and eaten them completely  ). To me, that seems like prey. A jute thingy seems like fun (for most).


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## Tim Martens

all i meant was that i would have given up on the dog. too much work. there's too many other dogs out there that can be serious AND have prey drive which are so much easier to train. like i said, i tip my hat to you for sticking to it. i would not.


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## Guest

Ok, it's late. You're still not off the hook on the theories, though. I really am interested in those; people have such different ideas, and there's really no way to prove which is correct...

He's my dog. He'll always be my dog. If he's going to live with me, why would I quit? I don't even know how much work it would be; can't find a damn person to help around here. He's been worked about as many times as I can count on one hand, so I don't really feel he's had a fair shot, anyway. 

What do you think about the fact that he will tug like there's no tomorrow with me, and plays ball as enthusiastically as anyone, yet won't interact with a tug and helper? He plays all the games people want sport dogs to do-except not with them. He kills animals. One of the two has to have something to do with prey drive, although I would argue still that any tug interaction has more to do with play. Part of my \"problem\" is that I LIKE a serious dog that CAN be fun and playful, not a prey monster who is play,play,play, yet has the ability to be serious. I have very little patience  . 

I love his temperament; I wouldn't change him at all, if I could find someone closer than Oklahoma to help me!


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## Bob Scott

Jenn, Mike Diehl is definately in Indianapolis In. My dogs mom was receintly bred to Mike's latest dog, Bosco.


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## Mike Schoonbrood

I really like Eick from what I've seen of that dog.


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## Mike Schoonbrood

My dog is whining n barking at me to go potty so I didn't read the whole thread but from what I did read here are my comments....

Retargeting, even if it's natural blah blah blah is a safety issue for the decoy, if it's a safety issue for the decoy it shouldn't be done, therefore, a suit is better than a sleeve, because that way if the dog does retarget, at least the decoy isn't going to get bitten for real trying to help your dog, n from the sounds of it, anyone willing to work your dog shouldn't get bit or you'll be back to having nobody :lol: :lol: :lol:

As for giving up on the dog, it's not the dog it's the lack of people working with the dog, all these problems would go away in less than a month if you had someone to train with daily, but you don't, so I'd focus more on finding someone to help you than on doing much with the dog, because if you can't maintain the training for the rest of the dogs life then it's kinda pointless to start in the first place.

As for coming in and out, it depends on the dog, some dogs do this some dogs do it because they're not confident, confidence comes thru training, training is conditioning. Once the dog is conditioned to believe he is invincible, you'll see less of this darting in and out on the bite. A true PPD/PSD needs to understand that a decoy does fight back, it needs to be hit at some point in its training carreer - but that's much later on, Caleb needs confidence and regular training with someone who's willing to agitate him in a way that Caleb recognizes as a threat. I'm not big on working dogs entirely in defense, it's very stressful on a dog and often creates problems down the line, I was starting to see some of these problems in Cujo with too much defensive work and we're trying to resolve these problems in another dog who went too long with nothing but defense and stress, the dog had a break in his maintainence training of several years, now the dog has a few issues that have been addressed by trying to turn it into a low-key relaxed kinda game so the dog isn't fighting for life or death every time.

Just my humble opinion  I'm gonna go take my dog out before he explodes.


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## Guest

Mike, what you're saying is true about liability; however, I don't really care :lol: . I am not worried about a real life bite causing excessive harm. In the situation where I would command my dog to attack someone, I don't give a rat's a$$ if he kills them. I really mean life or death; not talking about the decoy. I'm not too worried about liability where this one possible situation is concerned. 

I'd rather work a dog on a suit than a sleeve; the last thing I want is an equipment oriented dog. I also don't think imprinting for a certain type of grip is necessarily a good thing for a real PPD. I don't care if my dog has a full-mouth grip; whatever teeth he feels like using are ok with me.  

I wasn't talking about Caleb when I was talking about the darting in/out. I was just saying I have seen this, and it was 100% natural instinct; this dog had no training of any kind at all. It made sense: he goes in, attacks, and jumps back when the opponent fights back. Then, he retargets and does the same thing all over again. Wouldn't you do your best to get the other guy without getting hit yourself? Along these lines (Mike, you may have to ban me for this  :lol: ) I think the bark and hold is about the dumbest thing a person can make a PPD do. There, I said it, and will await lashings  . I can see the use if someone is SURE the badguy will not/cannot harm the dog, but if I were sending my dog out to fight an enemy, I'd have to be sure they were quite dangerous, and if so, why on Earth would I send my dog to bark in front of someone who could easily kill him with a weapon, or break his neck, if he's engaged on a sleeve? Just seems like the worst possible postion for a dog to be in against someone admittedly dangerous. :? I have never understood this; all the videos I've seen just confuse me more.


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## Mike Schoonbrood

The bark and hold has its place in the world, I can think of numerous situations where it'd be adequate enough to have a dog bark at someone, all that person has to do is move n it turns into a bite and hold, so it's not like the dog stands there to take a beating if the situation changes.

As for liability etc... it's one thing to say you don't care what happens when it comes to a real world situation, but in training you don't want the dog to bite for real, well.... unless you really hate your decoy, but that's not usually the case, so even though you may not care what the dog does in the real world, protecting the decoy in training should be the #1 concern... right Patrick? RIGHT??


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## Bob Scott

Jenn, just my thoughts on this. A B%H as performed in sport is totally different then a PSD or PPD would do. For the real world, the dog isn't right in the face of the \"badguy\" when it's doing a street B%H. PSD dogs will stay back 5-6ft, depending on training. The sport B%H is all about points. The stand in place, sport type of B%H wont cut it on the street when the $#!+ hits the fan.


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## Guest

Maybe that's why I don't have many friends :lol: . I'll offer free stitches when we're done 8) . 

That's what I was saying about the bark and hold; fine if there's no danger to the dog (ie someone terrified of it), but to have it turn into a bite and hold where the dog remains engaged to the arm or whatever, the dog is just asking to get injured if the guy decides to pull out a weapon.


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## Al Curbow

Hi Jenni, here's the way i see it. I think about the liability all the time, i view one of my dogs like a loaded gun ( BIG RESPONSIBILITY ), if your in a real \"life or death\" situation your gonna let the dog fight him while your running like hell the other way, right? I mean your going to put distance between you and the badguy, hopefully you end up ok and the cops get the badguy and your dog survives, BUT.... here's how it would go here up north, the badguy goes to the hospital and says he was just walking down the street and the next thing he knows a dog is attacking him, blah blah blah, you lose your dog (if it lived) , get sued and end up with nothing (actually less than nothing because your negitive $) so..... yeah, i care about liability, my youngest is a lot of dog, sometimes i look at him and think, jeeez, chill out for 2 seconds but..... nope,
AL


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## Guest

Totally agree, AL. What I was trying to say to Mike was that I have one particular situation in mind where I don't care at all and am not worried about liability. In every other scenario, you're on the same page as I am. But, in this case, there's no way he could cry \"I was just walking down the street.\" He has 2 priors. :| I don't think the cops would buy it. Also, I would never just send the dog out unless I was on my own property. I should've been more specific, but I was trying to not come right out and say it  . I'm talking specifically about a fight occurring INSIDE my own house...so the likelihood of him being able to cry innocent in court is just about nil. In my house? Forced entry? 2 priors? Even I have more faith in the justice system than that! 8)


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## Greg Long

Yeah, 

We have a saying here in OK,\"if you shoot someone you better drag them in the house\".A throwdown might come in handy too. :wink: (just kidding)

I dont know about dogs though.Its kinda greyish. :? 

Greg


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## Guest

How are dogs more grayish if the attack occurs in your house with a whole bunch of broken stuff to prove forced entry? I'm not talking about deciding a guest has overstayed his welcome :lol: I don't see how that can be grayish. :? A person with history of violence? In someone's house they've been told to stay away from? 2 police reports? I can't imagine a dog getting in trouble for THAT. I would be very careful about sending a dog outside after said person, though. But as long as the body's in the house...I don't see the problem.


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## Tim Martens

the bottom line with liability is look whose hands you are in. your fate and the fate of your worldly possessions lie with a jury of 12 of your \"peers\". who do you think your peers are? i'll tell you. it's 12 people who couldn't get out of jury duty because: a) they don't have jobs, b) their jobs are insignificant enough that they could miss work without any consequence, or c) they felt is was their civic duty. do you want to put your fate in those hands?

sure, the scenario of the violent, known person entering your home would seem like a pretty clear cut case. but so did OJ's....


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## Guest

I think I belong in Texas. Do they even have laws there? :? 

Tim, you're talking about if something goes to trial, when a situation is not black or white. Do you think this person is even going to call the police? If he went to the hospital, do you think he'd actually tell the truth about his injuries? He'd have to be totally nuts. I guess the only problem would be if he was killed, which is highly unlikely. I'd think a few bites would sober him up and he'd crawl back under his rock. :wink:

My worldly possessions...sounds grander than they are :lol: . Few as they may be, that's why I have a $2,000,000 umbrella policy/personal liability policy :wink: .

All I'm saying is that different styles of training in bitework are for different purposes. Do you have to be more careful doing real-world training? Of course. But, I still think it's necessary to do if you need assurance your dog will not be looking for the sleeve, or hanging on some guy with a knife's arm :wink: . This probably affects less than one percent of the population, I know.


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## Tim Martens

Jenni Williams said:


> I think I belong in Texas. Do they even have laws there? :?
> 
> Tim, you're talking about if something goes to trial, when a situation is not black or white. Do you think this person is even going to call the police? If he went to the hospital, do you think he'd actually tell the truth about his injuries? He'd have to be totally nuts. I guess the only problem would be if he was killed, which is highly unlikely. I'd think a few bites would sober him up and he'd crawl back under his rock. :wink:
> 
> My worldly possessions...sounds grander than they are :lol: . Few as they may be, that's why I have a $2,000,000 umbrella policy/personal liability policy :wink: .
> 
> All I'm saying is that different styles of training in bitework are for different purposes. Do you have to be more careful doing real-world training? Of course. But, I still think it's necessary to do if you need assurance your dog will not be looking for the sleeve, or hanging on some guy with a knife's arm :wink: . This probably affects less than one percent of the population, I know.


civil suits goto trial too you know. also keep in mind that a guy probably would be willing to go to the police and tell him exactly what he did, take the hit (couple months in jail here tops), and take the 2 million. that is assuming the insurance pays off and doesn't try to stiff you for not disclosing that your dog is protection trained...


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## Guest

Tim, I'm not willing to go into any more detail here, so I'll just stop trying to explain. Take my word for it that he's not going to sue me. Like I said, only one percent of the civilian population probably needs a dog like I want. What makes you think my insurance company wouldn't be informed that my dog was PP trained? :wink:


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## Tim Martens

because he wasn't PP trained when you got the policy right? so i'm assuming you did not place the call to them to tell them of that. if you did, i would assume that your premium would go up quite a bit. 

if you did tell them, then good job, but still always count on an insurance company trying to screw you....


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## Guest

Tim, my dog is not protection trained NOW. The reason I have the policy and what it's in force to protect are neither here nor there, and it's been in force longer than I've had shepherds. Actually, Widget was a concern :lol: . 

I asked the company about PP training, and it makes no difference in my area whether they're trained or not; a GSD is a GSD in their eyes, and with more than one, you're screwed either way. But, the good thing is this only is really an issue if they have bitten in the past; they start with a clean slate  . One good thing about Yuppieville: even the GSDs are dull :lol: .


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## Mike Schoonbrood

My insurance company dropped me when I got a GSD. Now I have a company who takes GSD's but not dobies. So had I decided to get a dobie instead of a dutchie I'd be looking for Insurance company option C, ugh. I don't think there's any restrictions on dutchies LOL just tell em it's a mutt.


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## Guest

Well, Mike, have you ever noticed that most of the episodes of COPS you see take place in Florida? :lol: That could be part of your insurance problem. Here in Disneyland, there aren't too many dog insurance claims. 8)


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