# Size, proportion, Angulation or just a bad genetic base?



## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

I'd really like the opinions of breeders and trainers alike who are familiar with the GSD breed.
It seems to me that a lot of GSD specimens(even working lines) have overly long backs and unnecessary angulation in the hind legs. Some non-dysplastic dogs still have a funny gait as the back legs seem to not really be in harmony with the rest.
Another is height, seems tall dogs are not common and a lot of dogs generally have a rectangular look instead of the more original box shaped structure.
I understand that a lot of very strong dogs have these conformation types and it's hard to just weed them out of the gene pool but i wonder if breeders try to avoid these kinds of dogs as much as possible.

To be a little more clear, Dogs like Hoky-va pe, Extreme orex aykmar, Black Jack von der teufelskehle, Asko von der lutter, Pike v Schafbachmuhle, Jucan von peroh etc seem to be very well proportioned and produce similar progeny. Backs are not too long, no arc on the spine etc and move gracefully....Some other popular studs like Javir, Ellute, Zar von der schiffslache,Ginoginelli von karthago etc have longer backs and some of these dogs/their progeny have a less 'tight' gait that can be noticed in the blind search phase of protection and on dumbell retrieves in obedience. Some are so angulated, you can see the slant backs while heeling.
Asides from all the scientific research to battle HD and back problems, can common sense(Not breeding dogs that aren't agile enough, too big etc) be helpful in producing dogs that can be trained without the handler constantly worrying about the dog getting injured or not being able to move well once its 8 years old? 
I want to believe i'm the exception and have just been unlucky to own and meet owners of not so healthy(Structure wise) working GSDs but it really bothers me.
Lastly, what is the purpose of Show ratings, stacking dogs etc in breeding better dogs? Collies, terriers and some other herders have thrived without similar tests. If we really want to produce healthy dogs, why do we still follow a failed group's breeding requirements(Showline GSDs)?


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## Brian McQuain (Oct 21, 2009)

All in the name of "beauty". I personally dont care what it looks like or where its from as long as it works. I have one GSD that is a little longer in the back, but he is the fastest, most agile dog Ive ever owned...even more than any border collie Ive owned.


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## Kirsten Fitzgerald (May 23, 2014)

You don't have to be familiar with the breed.

Breeds come/came about in the 1st place for a purpose. they were developed for that purpose through environmental selection.ie: the most effective and reliable dogs are are far more likely to have their lines continue as long as they are meeting the demands placed on them most efficiently.
They were tried and tested in a variety of environments. Where ever they filled a purpose

A type came about, but with variability. A still recognisable type.

The K.Cs breed for type 1st. Not purpose. If all environmental demands are not catered to equally, there must be loss of purpose.
As long as a pedigree comes 1st, you will lose purpose because you are denying environmental selection.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Go to any AKC conformation show, pick a breed, any breed and you'll be anything from surprised to shocked at what you are looking at.

The American show line GSD is the absolute worst of the bunch.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

Olu....long time no see 

stick with posting these vids and forget about starting a show vs work thread....especially regarding the gsd.....

useless, non productive ways to vent that will not have any impact on the problem : breeding too many dogs for the wrong reasons 
- and the vents will never reach the audience that needs to hear them :-(

- btw, we've had many over the years......where have u been ?

and i thought i was living under a rock //lol//


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

rick smith said:


> Olu....long time no see
> 
> stick with posting these vids and forget about starting a show vs work thread....especially regarding the gsd.....
> 
> ...


Hi Rick!!
Just finished my bachelor degree and moved to Tanzania...Dog training is kinda difficult when you are everywhere but nowhere. Hoping to bring my girl over later. Hope you're good too.

I did some training in January before leaving....My girl isn't very fast cos her new 'owners' over feed her but her grips are awesome, better than the 'veterans' at my club.

Here's my last decoying video

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DSOCpPZAGoo

Here's my girl

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=YDBy7YXlgOg


I'll put them up in the videos section in case people avoid this thread lol :mrgreen:


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Your helper work is looking very good! You are showing a lot of feel and intuition in your reactions to the dog. That's something that can't be taught.


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

Christopher Smith said:


> Your helper work is looking very good! You are showing a lot of feel and intuition in your reactions to the dog. That's something that can't be taught.


 Thanks a million sir, means a lot coming from someone with your level of experience.


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