# Ring to Street



## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

I know many Schutzhund dogs and failures can be worked in to patrol applications. How often are ring sport dogs purchased or KNPV dogs? Which training venue seems to produce the better foundation for patrol transfer applications?


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## Loring Cox (Sep 6, 2008)

The largest vendor in CA that I know of is Dave Reaver of Adlerhorst in Southern CA. 95% of his imports are fully titled KNPV, IPO, NVBK, and FR dogs. The training steps that he uses in the academy seem to be directly oriented towards taking a sport oriented dog and channeling it into street work.

In my personal experience my unit had some rough starts with immature dogs (14-18 months old) that came from other vendors. They all turned out fine after several deployments, but many many units would not have the patience that we allowed. I attribute it to the young age of the dogs and the training methods used with the dogs to get them on the street.

If you sent this question out to the majority of Police K9 units in SoCal you would be overwhelmed with the number of successful KNPV and F/B Ring dogs being used on the street.

I went to Adlerhorst for my 2nd dog and have been very happy with him.I selected a KNPV DS who was 30 months old. He was successful on his first deployment and has gotten better with each one after. I did not want a "maneater" or sharp dog and shopped for certain traits that are paying off with my style of handling. With that said, I don't think the majority of police K9 handlers would have selected my dog or thought he was "enough" dog for them...


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Nice information and I see not much is coming from the sport Schutzhund venue...Would you say that the wat the Dutch train makes the dog better suited for the real application?


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Howard Gaines III said:


> ..Would you say that the wat the Dutch train makes the dog better suited for the real application?



I don't think it's the way the Dutch train; it's the dogs they breed. consider, we (LE) get the top of the bottom of the barrel and they are still better than most of the US bred dogs. Granted, there are some vendors in the US starting to breed a better dog, but the numbers aren't there to support the need. 

DFrost


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

I don't agree that most of the Imports to the US are the "top of the bottom of the barrel", Holland is a small country that has no Need for the number of KNPV dogs alone that are titled each year.


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## Loring Cox (Sep 6, 2008)

Howard Gaines III said:


> Nice information and I see not much is coming from the sport Schutzhund venue...Would you say that the wat the Dutch train makes the dog better suited for the real application?


Not so sure about that. I have seen vids of lots of extra "police type" training for KNPV dogs that is outside of the KNPV routine, but I don't know if that is usual for dogs not already selected for local police.By this I mean vehicle work, building searches, civil agitation, etc. I will say that if my dog is an average example of what the Dutch produce, I won't look anywhere else when our next purchase is needed.

I think it was more that KNPV dogs tend to be more mature when sold (36 months old seems average) after being titled. Most of the IPO/Sch dogs I see here are 14-18 months old and just not ready for the streets and the pressures of training.

And again, my experience is very limited and regional. A K9 officer in NC or WY might have a whole diferent opinon based on what is being imported to their region."


"When the time to perform comes, the time to prepare is past...."


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## jack van strien (Apr 9, 2009)

Kyle do you think the US is the only country who buys KNPV dogs?


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Kyle you may not feel that way, but the prices alone tell me different. The top KNVP dogs are not selling for 5 grand each. That's what we are paying. I've purchased 2, but have trained 3 from a small breeder in WTN. I'm not telling anyone about her. ha ha. All the dogs I've seen are comparable with anything I've been able to purchase. Ask Selena, she knows a little about what the Dutch sell.

DFrost


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

What I know is several people that travel to Holland and know kennels and brokers there that have returned with many Great all around dogs.

You can get and find these top level dogs if you know where to look and have reliable contacts.


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

jack van strien said:


> Kyle do you think the US is the only country who buys KNPV dogs?


 
Nope but I would say on average we are most likely the largest importer.

I have owned two very good KNPV titled dogs, one of which is what most of the people who come on this board wanting PP this and that, good with kids etc........Represented to perfection.

If I could clone this dog I would be Rich!


It is not about the score it is about the individual dog.

Of course I have seen some not so good dogs out of the program as well.


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

David I would ask Top at What?

Everyone sees and wants different characteristics out of a dog, what someone else likes might not be my cup O tea. Doesn't mean it is Bad for what it was purchased for.


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

KNPV, then NVBK, then FR. KNPV has been set for many, many years with the aim of training dogs to a certain level and then sold on to make way for the next one. This isnt the aim in the ringsports or IPO. The KNPV is a police dog factory. Sure theres shitters, sure theres dodgy brokers, but its where the numbers are at.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Kyle Sprag said:


> David I would ask Top at What?
> 
> Everyone sees and wants different characteristics out of a dog, what someone else likes might not be my cup O tea. Doesn't mean it is Bad for what it was purchased for.



The better, best, "top" KNVP dogs. Those, would probably be selling for more than 5,000 dollars. Granted, what someone else wants may not be your cup o' tea. In my experience, most law enforcement trainers are looking for generally the same thing. I'd have no way of knowing how that compares to what you are looking for.

DFrost


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

David Frost said:


> The better, best, "top" KNVP dogs. Those, would probably be selling for more than 5,000 dollars. Granted, what someone else wants may not be your cup o' tea. In my experience, most law enforcement trainers are looking for generally the same thing. I'd have no way of knowing how that compares to what you are looking for.
> 
> DFrost


Again, Top at What? Score?

The two that I have owned were much respected LE K9s at one time.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: The two that I have owned were much respected LE K9s at one time.

How hard is that though ?? I have had too many people tell me that we are getting the bottom of the barrel over here. 

How many of these dogs got shot for going after their retard handler ?? How many PD's ignored the training and went to some seminar and tried to use food and just got ignored ??

I like to use this dog as a guage. Where are your dogs if this is a 10 ??

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZloqxTLypJA&feature=related


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Kyle Sprag said:


> Again, Top at What? Score?
> 
> The two that I have owned were much respected LE K9s at one time.



Ahh, I see. I'm thinking, best available for the price they are willing to pay with an expectation of making a profit when reselling. 

I don't understand if they were much respected by le and one time, why did they get rid of them? 

DFrost


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

David at $5,000 is that for a package of dogs purchased or single price? I have used a broker in The Netherlands that will find you what you want. Three countries in the EU combined are as big as Texas. With many folks working for KNPV titles, dogs are a business. No wonder we don't buy much here, Fluffy jumps through a holla hoop and gets to sleep on the bed and she now becomes the foundation for someone's "working dog kennel." The more LE folks I have spoken with this summer, I am finding the KNPV and IPO training and not sport Schutzhund is the K-9s background. And I have seen some nice looking dogs: Dutch Shepherds and Mals.


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

David Frost said:


> Ahh, I see. I'm thinking, best available for the price they are willing to pay with an expectation of making a profit when reselling.
> 
> I don't understand if they were much respected by le and one time, why did they get rid of them?
> 
> DFrost


 
Both the handler got out of K9 and the dogs were returned to the kennel they came from, one was 6 the other was 7.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Howard, I buy in ones and twos, never more than 4. I don't know if t here would be a discount for more. My understanding is the price has risen since I purchased my last ones (middle of 08). This isn't for a trained dog. It's a dog that has been "bite tested" and shown to be suitable as a dual purpose.

DFrost


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

We just got two from a well known kennel. $6,500 bucks each I believe. Both are shitters and will have to go back. Down here you're looking at $8,500 for a green dog and about 11 grand for titled dog. The two we got were as green as they come.

Both of mine had KNPV background. First one was 18 months old and a hard ass. The 2nd was 3 years old and the same way but a bit easier to handle. Wish we could still get dogs like that for $3,500.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Howard Knauf said:


> Wish we could still get dogs like that for $3,500.


I was afraid the prices were higher than I've paid in the past. I'm hearing 6,500 and up here. Untrained, that's all I buy as well. I think the days of the 3,500 are long gone. 

DFrost


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Green dogs...! I have some Sears Hunter Green paint in the garage and a cure Bouvier...make me an offer Howard!!!!

I've tried to get a KNPV female Bouvier from Holland and in EVERY case it wasn't going to happen. To add more pain to my cause, it would run $10K. Males can be had for $6500-$8500 out of Sch. lines.


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

Howard, this site may be of interest to you.



http://www.bouvierindeknpv.nl/english/pages.php?pageid=15191


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

David Frost said:


> I was afraid the prices were higher than I've paid in the past. I'm hearing 6,500 and up here. Untrained, that's all I buy as well. I think the days of the 3,500 are long gone.
> 
> DFrost



Yea, they came from up your way.


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## Drew Peirce (Nov 16, 2006)

The criteria for a decent police dog today has shifted as much as the situations where the handler can deploy the dog have, just 15 years or so ago there was a pecking order in most k9 units, the strongest and most skilled handlers got the strongest dogs, kind of a natural selection process.
Today, if you talk to any director of a large police k9 training center he will tell you there's very little use for really strong dogs anymore, todays police dog needs to be just enough dog to do the work, but anything above that is a liability and a training problem.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Drew Peirce said:


> todays police dog needs to be just enough dog to do the work, but anything above that is a liability and a training problem.



I understand what you are saying, and I don't entirely disagree with you. I would point out however there are a few cities, Pittsburgh, Philly, Miami, Atlanta, Nashville, Phoneix, Los Angeles among others that are somewhat known for having dogs that are, a touch above "just enough".

DFrost


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

David Frost said:


> I understand what you are saying, and I don't entirely disagree with you. I would point out however there are a few cities, Pittsburgh, Philly, Miami, Atlanta, Nashville, Phoneix, Los Angeles among others that are somewhat known for having dogs that are, a touch above "just enough".
> 
> DFrost


I have a friend that worked as a K9 handler in South Bend Indiana quite a few years ago, he was on K9 for a few years and had near 50 live bites. Was also sued 7 or 8 times but won the cases.

One of the KNPV dogs I had for a while had been with LA County Sheriffs and was WAY above "just enough" Very Tough dog.


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## Candy Eggert (Oct 28, 2008)

David Frost said:


> I understand what you are saying, and I don't entirely disagree with you. I would point out however there are a few cities, Pittsburgh, Philly, Miami, Atlanta, Nashville, Phoneix, Los Angeles among others that are somewhat known for having dogs that are, a touch above "just enough".
> 
> DFrost


David here's a classic text book take down, just a 'touch above' average ;-)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U0iNS8Yu4lI

My comment to the K9 handler that sent this to me was the dog was on the bite when the taser was deployed. But it doesn't seemed to have wurt his widdle feelings at all


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

That's a great video. It's truly what the way I would expect any of my dogs to react to a similar situation. The dog is not shocked even if the suspect is being tazed. Has something to do with the placement of the probes. I do like a dog that isn't going to quit though.

DFrost


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Kyle Sprag said:


> he was on K9 for a few years and had near 50 live bites. Was also sued 7 or 8 times but won the cases.
> 
> .


In this business it's not a matter of "if" but when a department will be sued. Anyone can sue anyone for nearly anything. Prevailing however is a different matter. As I'm sure you aware, good departments document each deployment. "Canine apprehensions" divinded by deployments equal bite ratio. Meaning you want a lot of deployments without canine apprehensions. Remember, the patrol dogs primary role is one of detection.

DFrost


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

David Frost said:


> In this business it's not a matter of "if" but when a department will be sued. Anyone can sue anyone for nearly anything. Prevailing however is a different matter. As I'm sure you aware, good departments document each deployment. "Canine apprehensions" divinded by deployments equal bite ratio. Meaning you want a lot of deployments without canine apprehensions. Remember, the patrol dogs primary role is one of detection.
> 
> DFrost


No I did not know that but since you mention it It seem correct and makes sense. I think that is is Sad that it has come to this. If you don't want to get Bit, don't F- around.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Kyle thanks. I shot them an e-mail and we will see. This site I have not seen before and I've been on several...all in the name of finding big Bouvs! #-o:mrgreen:


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## Loring Cox (Sep 6, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: The two that I have owned were much respected LE K9s at one time.
> 
> How hard is that though ?? I have had too many people tell me that we are getting the bottom of the barrel over here.
> 
> ...


From this video ONLY I would say my dog would be a 100. Will this dog go into a dark abandoned building at 0445 hrs and search for a human being hidden underneath loose floorboards with only a single command from the handler? And once found will this dog bite and hold that passive person laying face down? Will he continue to hold that person while he is beaten accross the head and chest with one of those floorboards? No prey, no agitation, no handler there to help him? Will the dog then switch modes and do an article search of the same area for the stolen property the guy hid?

And then tomorrow wil he go to a 4th grade class, and allow the kids to greet him without being the dog needed in the above scenario? Will he come to briefing and allow other officers to walk by him, will he move up with a SWAT stack and not begin to bark and get hectic, will he climb stairs, walk on open grates over a 40' drop, does he have good hips, does he moan and howl at night disturbing my neighbors, will he take a correction from his handler, will he???????

I don't know from a simple KNPV exercise and neither does anyone else. All this shows is some of his potential, of which he has a bunch!



Candy Eggert said:


> David here's a classic text book take down, just a 'touch above' average ;-)
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U0iNS8Yu4lI
> 
> My comment to the K9 handler that sent this to me was the dog was on the bite when the taser was deployed. But it doesn't seemed to have wurt his widdle feelings at all


This is a great deployment. The only way I see that it could have been a tougher task is if the suspect had manned up and stayed in the car and not flopped his arm around like a decoy... I am sure the handler relaxed a little when he saw that. Like my sig says, "They are trained for that..." To ask any dog to run to that window with CS pouring out of it and all the other distractions around and do it first time is asking a lot. I think it speaks to the level of training the team does.



David Frost said:


> In this business it's not a matter of "if" but when a department will be sued. Anyone can sue anyone for nearly anything. Prevailing however is a different matter. As I'm sure you aware, good departments document each deployment. "Canine apprehensions" divinded by deployments equal bite ratio. Meaning you want a lot of deployments without canine apprehensions. Remember, the patrol dogs primary role is one of detection.
> 
> DFrost


Ugh, so confusing. Here we have the ratio David talks about, but we also have to show Apprehension to Surrender ratio as well.


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

We pay around 7000 for a green dog . Most come from the Czech republic . We've paid extra for some titled dog and the KNPV dog seem to have been the best overall , so far . 

We get them in groups of about 12 to 16 a year and no discounts as far as I know for large orders . 

I disagree with Drew on the "just enough" dog thing . Police K9 is just too variied throught the country on selection , training , breed , etc . . I've seen alot of PSD's from around the country and it ranges from departments that just want a dog but never want it to bite anyone for real to departments that want dogs that are biting maniacs and they don't care if the dogs good at anything else . 

For us with the green dogs we get mostly are too young(12-16 months) to tell exactly what we are going to get out of them initially . We used to be able to look at older dogs and have a much better idea of their strengths but not any more . 

Nowadays around here it's pay for a dog that is showing it's confident environmentally , healthy and is taking a sleeve nicely under very little presure . We then work slowly to hopefully bring them up to being a PSD down the road . Some make it but many don't and we return it , get a new young dog and start all over . It sucks . We are gambling that the dog has what it takes .

We can't afford to pay the prices for titled older dogs .


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Loring Cox said:


> Ugh, so confusing. Here we have the ratio David talks about, but we also have to show Apprehension to Surrender ratio as well.


Agreed, but I didn't want to confuse anyone, ha ha. 

DFrost


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Jim Nash said:


> Nowadays around here it's pay for a dog that is showing it's confident environmentally , healthy and is taking a sleeve nicely under very little presure . We then work slowly to hopefully bring them up to being a PSD down the road . Some make it but many don't and we return it , get a new young dog and start all over . It sucks . We are gambling that the dog has what it takes .
> 
> We can't afford to pay the prices for titled older dogs .


That is what I call bite tested. Add to that the test for dual purpose capability and that's what we've been purchasing. As I said earlier, I haven't purchased any dogs in over a year, because of budget, but I paid 5,000 for the last 5 I did buy. Of course I don't buy in the numbers you do, I'm only doing our own, only as needed. I really try not to get one that will need replacing during training. 

DFrost


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

If you're spending $8-12,000 for a green dog from the EU, why aren't there vendors in the US who can do that good for half or a third? And what about the use of nontraditional dogs, anyone doing that? I would think that at 12 months of age, there MUST be some breeders in the states who are producing hard as hell, clear thinking, handler friendly animals. Can't be that these department have THAT much of an OPEN checkbook!!!:-$


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

Howard Gaines III said:


> If you're spending $8-12,000 for a green dog from the EU, why aren't there vendors in the US who can do that good for half or a third? And what about the use of nontraditional dogs, anyone doing that? I would think that at 12 months of age, there MUST be some breeders in the states who are producing hard as hell, clear thinking, handler friendly animals. Can't be that these department have THAT much of an OPEN checkbook!!!:-$


 
If people are spending 8k to 12K for green dogs from Holland I have some land in Florida I would like to sell them! LOL

6K to 8K will get you GOOD KNPV titled dogs all day long, even with the Dollar in the Toilette!


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Howard Gaines III said:


> If you're spending $8-12,000 for a green dog from the EU, why aren't there vendors in the US who can do that good for half or a third? $


I've tried to read through the thread again, who said they were paying 8 to 12 thousand. I was using 5 grand, Jim and Howard, who have purchased dogs since I have are saying 6 to 7 thousand. I think the biggest reason more U.S. breeders are not big into the market is the amount of time a dog has to be kept before it's a sellable item. I can't speak for Jim or Howard, but most of the trainers I work with don't really like a dog less than 18 months. I really prefer 24 months. I know Jim mentioned getting dogs at 12 to 14 I think he said and thought that was a bit early, if I understood him correctly. Puppies, for the most part are a crap shoot. A litter is going to produce hopefully 60% good dogs. Puppies are easier to get rid of and a lot less work for a breeder. Europe is just a different mindset.

DFrost


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Howard,
In 20 years I've only seen one Bouv and one Rott in these parts. Mals were just beginning to show up in civilian PDs about 10 years ago here.


"6K to 8K will get you GOOD KNPV titled dogs all day long, even with the Dollar in the Toilette! "

Point me in that direction please!


David,
Thats all we're willing to pay. Most in this area are 8-12 grand. The one guy who was selling them for less in my area is either not doing so well, or out of business (haven't confirmed it yet).

My friend in Orlando just got an IPO1 dog...$12,500 I believe. The price was $8,500 before it was titled.


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

"Point me in that direction please!"


There are brokers in Holland you can go to and look at 50 to 100 dogs if you want.

The last dog that I looked at seriously, a PH I dog the trainer wanted 5000 euro, at today's rate that is around $7200


One friend I know is in Belgium right now for the MR championships, when he gets back I will ask him what he is paying. He goes over 4 or 5 times a year for dogs.


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

We have 2 vendors , ex K9 handlers who look at dogs from all over Europe . They then bring the dogs back (usually 12-16 dogs , requiring multiple trips) and deliver them to our kennel . That is all factored into the $7000 price . Saves tying up a K9 handler and taking him or her off the streets to transport the dogs sit through customs , airfare , etc. . 

Kyle if you got more info on the vendors it's worth a look because what you are stating is well outside the norm around here and other places I've talked to for the price of a green dog much less a titled on . 

Dave , yes we are getting 12-16 months olds and don't like it . We would prefer 16-24+ month olds like we used to get but those dogs , at least from the many vendors we have talked to are hard to come by and when found will be more expensive . 

We take Mals , Dutchies and GSD's and different X's of all 3. Whatever will work . 

We've trained Rotts , Dobies(well before my time) and French Beurgerions(spelling is incorrect I'm sure) in the past also . 

To stay somewhat on topic , we have found some KNPV titled dogs that we either could afford at the time or the price was right that we have used and they have worked out great . I know we have had some failures with some dogs titled in other sports but have also had someof those workout well also .


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Very interesting topic.

I would like to hear Mike Suttles input on pricing here because it seems he is below the norm as far as costs go.

On a side note, Mike is Calvin, the Wibo son you have for sale..Jenn Ruza's Calvin ?


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

"We have 2 vendors , ex K9 handlers who look at dogs from all over Europe . They then bring the dogs back (usually 12-16 dogs , requiring multiple trips) and deliver them to our kennel . That is all factored into the $7000 price . Saves tying up a K9 handler and taking him or her off the streets to transport the dogs sit through customs , airfare , etc. . 

Kyle if you got more info on the vendors it's worth a look because what you are stating is well outside the norm around here and other places I've talked to for the price of a green dog much less a titled on ."


If all this expense is factored into the 7K price than that is reasonable, even more so at today's exchange rate and travel/shipping expense.

I looked at a BR dog a couple of years ago, it was around 1K to ship the dog to me, would have been cheaper to Fly there and pick up the dog myself. 


I do know someone who picked up a young female (14 months) just about 2 years ago for around 2K and turned around and sold it to Lackland for 4 or 4.5K can''t remember the exact price.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Jim Nash said:


> Dave , yes we are getting 12-16 months olds and don't like it . We would prefer 16-24+ month olds like we used to get but those dogs , at least from the many vendors we have talked to are hard to come by and when found will be more expensive .
> 
> We take Mals , Dutchies and GSD's and different X's of all 3. Whatever will work .
> 
> ...


I understand the different X's of all 3, I've never cared about ancestry and all that nonsense, I'm an end user, not a breeder. I've been fortunate in getting 20 to 24 month old, but as I said, not needing the numbers you do.

I do have one Rott, good dog. Haven't seen a good Doberman in many, many years, but that wouldn't matter, I won't work with them. Personally don't like them and it's one of the 3 lines I draw with dogs. I do have one PH1. A really good dog I got for a steal (6,500). It was too much dog for another department I was in position to place it. 

DFrost


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

A friend testing a $1500 PH I dog I had at just under 6 years old.

Not enough motivation for OB for me but still a very good dog with 4 or more working years left.

Good area searches, artical searches, muzzle work and great on the bite.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQVr16EY-jE


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

Got this email this morning, Videos and Pics look like a real nice dog.


PH I dog for Sale 

"included
x rays hips + elbows+ back ok
Rabius vaccination
the Declaration of health
ph1 titel 432 100% social
The price is € 5000(7,287.43 USD) + schipping kost
it is available in November"


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

This dog is at the same place as the one above, says he will be available next year after title.

Looks like some decent testing to me.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DxtcdZqA_Hs&feature=player_embedded


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

Trial Video of the Dog For Sale above:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FktF5UgutYI


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

Got another call this afternoon from a friend that has a contact in Holland with a nice fully KNPV trained Mal under 2 years old available asking 2700 euro. Handler is Injured, very good track record with the handler.

Hmmmmmmm


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

My god, all I hear are Crickets, chirp chirp chirp??????? :-$:-$:-$


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## Loring Cox (Sep 6, 2008)

Be the broker and take your cut!

My unit will be looking for two dogs in the next few months most likely, but we don't have the first clue about importing a dog. We would need a health and working guarantee. What if the dog has a ton of issues that would make it not work out? That is why the broker is in business.


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

Loring Cox said:


> Be the broker and take your cut!
> 
> My unit will be looking for two dogs in the next few months most likely, but we don't have the first clue about importing a dog. We would need a health and working guarantee. What if the dog has a ton of issues that would make it not work out? That is why the broker is in business.


 
Look, you know you can get good dogs all day long with Dave and return them any time you want for whatever reason for 9K

Why would anyone pay 6 to 8K for green adolecent dogs(12 to 16 months? LOL

I KNOW if I was looking for a good dog they are 5000 euro at most!


BUT, I got something Cooking, let me know the age requirements etc....


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

years ago we use to go around and look for the "turn ins" from K9 units.

Some crappers but most had Handler and/or Training issues........Nothing wrong with the dogs. 8-[


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## Drew Peirce (Nov 16, 2006)

"Why would anyone pay $6-8K for green adolescent dogs?"


all depends on the dog kyle, all depends on the dog...........


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

So Drew are you admitting to paying 6 to 8K for that?


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## Drew Peirce (Nov 16, 2006)

yep, and I feel like I stole him


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

Drew Peirce said:


> yep, and I feel like I stole him


 
Most Newbies do! :-o


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## Drew Peirce (Nov 16, 2006)

newbie

funny guy


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Kyle,

This dog with the injured handler. Is there video of him? Also, can anyone really explain why it costs a grand to fly a dog here? Seems outrageous.


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## Matt Grosch (Jul 4, 2009)

It costs a few hundred to fly a dog a couple states away


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## Richard Rutt (May 14, 2009)

I'm bringing in 4 new K9's from Europe right now. Because of a new TSA reg, if the dog is not flying with you it must be handled by an approved freight forwarder. I was quoted 695 euros per dog from France, plus the cost of the size 500 vari-kennel which the least expensive is 110 euros here. if I'm willing to drive to Frankfurt Germany which is 1030 kilometers round trip the cheapest cost is about 525 euros plus the crate, I'm still waiting for the quote flying out of Brussels. You still have to add the cost of a vet exam and the international health certificate which is around another 100 Euros, so Even if you are are in Frankfort and have no driving expenses the least expensive shipping is going to be 735 euros, and at today's rate that is $1074.72. I bring in 20-30 dogs a year and the shipping can cost as much as the dog sometimes!


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

I can not believe I just noticed this thread. Let me just say that when the price of a dog sounds too good to be true.......it usually is.
I sell green dual purpose quality dogs usually for around $6500 to $8000, and I often have a hard time keeping them here at that price. I have seen many dogs that were for sale in Europe for "bargain" prices and they all had pretty major issues that were deal breakers for me when I tested them. I am blessed with a business partner who lives in Holland and tests every dog before we buy them, so I dont have to cross my fingers and hope that the guy I am buying from doesn't screw me.
The dogs that pass our selection test will also pass the selection tests for the police departments in Europe and to get those dogs I have to be willing to pay more for them than the police will pay there.
Then I have to add about $1000 or more to the cost to cover shipping, crate cost, US Customs entry fees, x rays, health cert, rabies shot, microchip, passport, 12 hour round trip to the airport, gas, etc.
I could go back and reply to many of the posts on this thread that are a little incorrect, but I will hold off on doing that and just say that a real dual purpose quality police dog is very difficult to buy for less than $6500, and often times can cost as much as $10,000.
I have made the offer many times to pay $6000 for dual purpose police dogs here in America that will pass my selection test, but so far have gotten no takers.


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Which brings one to this question. Why cant the USA consitiantly produce their own working dogs? After all the countless high calibre dogs that have come in from Europe over the last 20 years, why isnt there better breeders than there appears to be? Why do you continue to rely on imports to supply the needs? 
Im not having a go, infact Im a little jealous we cant import dogs here with ease like you do.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Kyle Sprag said:


> Look, you know you can get good dogs all day long with Dave and return them any time you want for whatever reason for 9K
> 
> Why would anyone pay 6 to 8K for green adolecent dogs(12 to 16 months? LOL
> 
> ...


Hey Kyle....I guess I must be missing something here, so you wont pay between $6000 and $8000 for a dog, but you will pay 5000 Euros for a dog??? With shipping and the exchange rate the 5000 Euro dog will cost you over $8000 to get to your door.


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

mike suttle said:


> Hey Kyle....I guess I must be missing something here, so you wont pay between $6000 and $8000 for a dog, but you will pay 5000 Euros for a dog??? With shipping and the exchange rate the 5000 Euro dog will cost you over $8000 to get to your door.


First off that is the asking price, Second there is a difference between a 12 to 16 month old green dog and a Titled PH I dog.

If you have good kennels here selling dog for $9500 (advertised price) all day long someone is making money.

8K USD for a green adolecent is silly.


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

BTW Mike, nothing wrong with your post on this subject. I think we are more on the same page than not.

IMO if a PD is paying 10K to 12K for Titled dogs, like someone wrote, they may not be aware they are getting Hosed!


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Christopher Jones said:


> Which brings one to this question. Why cant the USA consitiantly produce their own working dogs? After all the countless high calibre dogs that have come in from Europe over the last 20 years, why isnt there better breeders than there appears to be? Why do you continue to rely on imports to supply the needs?
> Im not having a go, infact Im a little jealous we cant import dogs here with ease like you do.


Hey Chris, there are some breeders here that are trying to fill the need with our own dogs, but the need is HUGE and it is impossible to produce and prepare that number of dogs that are truely suited for real work. I keep at least one puppy from each litter, sometimes a few and so far have had very good success with preparing those puppies for the most difficult of selection tests. We have about 8 litters per year here, so that is 8-16 puppies that I hold back until they are adults. I have already had many dogs who were born and raised at Logan Haus Kennels to go into US Customs, US Border patrol, US Special Forces, DOD, TSA, USAR, and police departments accross the USA. I am sure there are other breeders here who have done that as well.
I need several hundred dogs per year to fill all of our contracts and orders, so I am forced to import a lot of dogs, I breed as many as I can properly raise here, but that number falls way short of what is required.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Christopher Jones said:


> Which brings one to this question. Why cant the USA consitiantly produce their own working dogs? After all the countless high calibre dogs that have come in from Europe over the last 20 years, why isnt there better breeders than there appears to be? Why do you continue to rely on imports to supply the needs?


It's a numbers thing. There are very few kennels in the US who are breeding dogs in any quantity to raise/train up for resale as green/trained adults. Like Mike mentioned, he does it and even he only produces a small percent of the total numbers he needs to fill his contracts. In terms of individuals, most raise/train a dog intending to keep it, not for resale. I think it's much more common in Europe for people to raise up dogs specifically for resale. The entire working dog culture is also much tighter geographically. Say I have 6 dogs for sale (I don't). Most of the potential customers are going to be over 1 state away, which means a trip to come see the dogs isn't going to be cheap. In Europe you can to see a bunch of dogs with just a few hours drive. 

It's also a money thing. I see posts on the internet lamenting how people can't find the dogs here in the US. But really, if the buyers were there the producers would be also. If there was a lot of money to be made raising up dogs here in the US for resale, people would be doing it. Some are, but not that many, which leads me to believe the market isn't really there to the level people might think.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> It's a numbers thing. There are very few kennels in the US who are breeding dogs in any quantity to raise/train up for resale as green/trained adults. Like Mike mentioned, he does it and even he only produces a small percent of the total numbers he needs to fill his contracts. In terms of individuals, most raise/train a dog intending to keep it, not for resale. I think it's much more common in Europe for people to raise up dogs specifically for resale. The entire working dog culture is also much tighter geographically. Say I have 6 dogs for sale (I don't). Most of the potential customers are going to be over 1 state away, which means a trip to come see the dogs isn't going to be cheap. In Europe you can to see a bunch of dogs with just a few hours drive.
> 
> It's also a money thing. I see posts on the internet lamenting how people can't find the dogs here in the US. But really, if the buyers were there the producers would be also. If there was a lot of money to be made raising up dogs here in the US for resale, people would be doing it. Some are, but not that many, which leads me to believe the market isn't really there to the level people might think.


Amen Kadi! It is just way easier to test and buy young adults from Europe than it is to bring them up yourself, especially if you need a few hundred a year.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

mike suttle said:


> Amen Kadi! It is just way easier to test and buy young adults from Europe than it is to bring them up yourself, especially if you need a few hundred a year.


Funny that a country like Holland that is about 5% the population of the USA can do a better job.


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

I thought it might be something like that. I just find it interesting that there doesnt appear to be any respect, other thanfor maybe Ot Vit or LDS, for American bred dogs. It appears from the outside, that the culture in the USA is for someone to get an import bitch, and then breed her to a titled import male, sell all the pups and repeat, or quality dogs are imported, sold to someone and never seen nor heard of again. Take a dog like Bono Pegge, awesome producer whos blood is now sought after in Holland, was sold to the USA and I am not aware of any offspring from him at all there. To me this is sad that all this great blood is lost once it goes through US Customs.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

That is because a country like Holland for example has 500 KNPV clubs with many very committed training club members. In the entire USA combined we have less working dog clubs than Holland alone, let alone the rest of Europe. It is a different mind set over there than Americans have here. Believe me I wish things were different, I would way rather buy dogs from US breeders and trainers and avoid all of the costs associated with importing all those dogs. But just can not find the quality of dogs that we need here, at least not in the numbers that we need.
If I could find serious committed trainers I would give them puppies and then buy those puppies back when they are 18 months old and they pass our selection tests.


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## Greg Naranjo (Oct 28, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I like to use this dog as a guage. Where are your dogs if this is a 10 ??
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZloqxTLypJA&feature=related


damn....what a dog!!! watched some other videos of him and was super impressed.


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## Matt Hammond (Apr 11, 2006)

I have a few issues with this, first being unless it is LAPD a department can’t afford a $6500-$10000 Green dog. The smaller departments that in my mind need the dogs the most just can’t afford to buy a dog for that price that is not ready to hit the streets right away. We sell green dogs, Very good green dogs for around $3500-$5500. All of these dogs are more then capable of passing any test. We sell finished full service dual purpose narc dogs for $7500-$8500. We don’t import and we pass saving on to the buyer because of this. Now Mike is right there are some crappers out there but that is why you test them before you buy them. I do think a sport dog can make a good police dog, but my main compliant is sport dog trainers or Obedience trainers passing themselves off as police dog trainers, which brings me to my next complaint. 

I have been a cop for over 15 years and some things I have learned are you can’t trust the public to understand what you do day in and day out and you can’t expect some one who has never been in a violent situation, that 100% of handlers will find them selves in, to understand what needs to be trained. In today’s market you find more often then not guys who have no idea what they are doing ripping off departments and passing off substandard dogs at out rages prices. You have sport dog trainers or worse yet obedience trainers claiming to be police dog trainers, having no idea what the dog needs to know and not know or passing off poorly trained detection dogs as a service to the public. The sad part is the department has no idea and buys in to the crap these folks peddle. To me it is a disgrace to those that do know what to do and how to do it. I have said it time and time again, it is only a matter of time before some one steps in and regulates what we do and puts a price cap on these dog. Obama is controlling everything else how long will it be until the Government steps in and takes a good look at what’s going on. We can’t even get along amongst ourselves what’s it going to be like when it is harder to earn a dollar and with all of the con-artist in the industry it will be even harder.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

It's why I've told every department that has ever asked for my assistance, input or suggestions; when buying a dog from a vendor, it's caveat emptor. I've never met a vendor that has ever sold a bad dog. ha ha.

DFrost


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## Matt Hammond (Apr 11, 2006)

David you need to get out and meet more vendors then LOL. There are plenty that pass off junk. I think out of all the sports Ring dogs have a better chance at making it in the "real world". I tell guys if they have a decoy that can work it to buy a leg dog. I don't know of to many tweckers that can get away from a leg dog.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Matt, the comment about vendors is tongue in cheek. From their viewpoint, they never sell a bad dog. ha ha. I see what some departments buy. Pitiful I tell ya, pitiful.

DFrost


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## Michael Santana (Dec 31, 2007)

David Frost said:


> Matt, the comment about vendors is tongue in cheek. From their viewpoint, they never sell a bad dog. ha ha. I see what some departments buy. Pitiful I tell ya, pitiful.
> 
> DFrost


It really is, but I believe that to be just as much the Depts fault. They should seek help from those that are willing to help, and have the experience. There are ALOT of great vendors out there, but there are just as many out to make a buck, without caring about the handler at the end of that leash.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

I have always heard that our problem is that we play baseball here, and dog training is not such a big part of our lives. It makes sense. 

Mike Suttle said that there are 500 KNPV clubs in Holland. I had no idea. 500. Prepping dogs to go into their police dog programs. Add the other countries that are producing dogs for sport, and it is no wonder why you can't buy good dogs here, repeatedly in quantity, from a breeder (yet). 

Mike also brings to mind a question to me (not what he said, but how he does business) which is why should a small department be going to Europe. Find a kennel here that imports dogs (Mike, don't you do that?) Have great health and working garauntees (Mike, again?) competetive prices (Mike, again?). The headache is gone, you build a relationship with that vendor, and Bob's your uncle, you have a system where there is a guy who is already looking for dogs, looking for dogs for you, when you call. Take that a step further, and after the first time you do business with a vendor, he knows what you are looking for and the language you're talking. Sharp, Civil, Prey monster. Whatever your dept wants, they look for.

The reason I am giving a plug to Mike is because he is a member of this forum who's dogs (a couple) I have seen work and worked myself. He is honest and I know that first hand. There are other vendors out there who are good as well. Few and far between in my opinion, but they are out there. Contact them and let them do the work. The volume they do passes a savings and a piece of mind on to you.

Just my .02


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

I don't have the problem with buying dogs. Mainly because I am able to evaluate the dogs I want. Then it becomes my problem. I also have the medical exams, xrays etc done at my expense before purchase. Dealing with nearby departments, I've personally seen several health problems in dogs the departments purchased. Sure the vendor replaced the dog, but what do you do about the year's time investment, prior to discovering the health problems. It would have been a cheap 200 bucks to do some checks prior to purchase. Being a state employee, I'm not allowed to recommend one vendor over another. It's a conflict of interest. I can, however, give recommendations on how to test a prospective dog and what medical tests to have run prior to purchasing. I can also recommend what tests to conduct on "trained" dogs being sold by vendors. I agree there are many honest vendors out there. there are also some that aren't quite as honest. 

DFrost


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

I too, want to give props to Mike Suttle, the most honest man in dogs today as far as I am concerned. A man of his word and will never steer you wrong or try to dump something on you. Its about the dog, and NOT the almighty dollar. Well......Mike I know you gotta feed the kids...... LOL 

Honest man with great dogs!


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Jody Butler said:


> I too, want to give props to Mike Suttle, the most honest man in dogs today as far as I am concerned. A man of his word and will never steer you wrong or try to dump something on you. Its about the dog, and NOT the almighty dollar. Well......Mike I know you gotta feed the kids...... LOL
> 
> Honest man with great dogs!


I don't know Mike, but have heard good things about him. You gave a glowing endorsement. Is it from personal experience? Have you purchased dogs from him? Have you actually seen any of his dogs in the working environment? Just curious.

DFrost


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

David Frost said:


> I don't have the problem with buying dogs. Mainly because I am able to evaluate the dogs I want. Then it becomes my problem. I also have the medical exams, xrays etc done at my expense before purchase. Dealing with nearby departments, I've personally seen several health problems in dogs the departments purchased. Sure the vendor replaced the dog, but what do you do about the year's time investment, prior to discovering the health problems. It would have been a cheap 200 bucks to do some checks prior to purchase. Being a state employee, I'm not allowed to recommend one vendor over another. It's a conflict of interest. I can, however, give recommendations on how to test a prospective dog and what medical tests to have run prior to purchasing. I can also recommend what tests to conduct on "trained" dogs being sold by vendors. I agree there are many honest vendors out there. there are also some that aren't quite as honest.
> 
> DFrost


 
I agree with most of what you said in your post. 

My point was, why not deal with a vendor in the states that can lower your costs, travel time, and replacement time. You can easily get the health tests done that you are looking for prior to purchase. Good vendors should have better buying power and be able to provide dogs at a lower cost because of it. 

Also after a few phone calls to the vendor and one purchase to see what type of dog you are looking for, they should be able to import what you like.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

I buy all my dogs from vendors in the states. The state isn't going to send me to Europe to buy dogs. Wish they would, I could use a good schnitzel. ha ha. I still xray and have physicals done on the ones I'm interested in. The vendors I've dealt with think I'm a major PITA, but I am the customer. I've only returned one dog in the past 15 years though.

DFrost


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

David Frost said:


> I buy all my dogs from vendors in the states. The state isn't going to send me to Europe to buy dogs. Wish they would, I could use a good schnitzel. ha ha. I still xray and have physicals done on the ones I'm interested in. The vendors I've dealt with think I'm a major PITA, but I am the customer. I've only returned one dog in the past 15 years though.
> 
> DFrost


 
My bad. I misunderstood..


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

David Frost said:


> I don't know Mike, but have heard good things about him. You gave a glowing endorsement. Is it from personal experience? Have you purchased dogs from him? Have you actually seen any of his dogs in the working environment? Just curious.
> 
> DFrost


David, once you meet him, you'll know exactly what I am talking about. I do know and have bought from Mike. I have seen many of his dogs in the working enviroment with no issues. 

Most vendors have nice dogs, however will hide issues to sell a dog....Mike won't buy him or if he figures out theres an issue, will be upfront about it or won't sell it.

PM me if you would like to know more of the experiences of his dogs....


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Jody, thanks, I was just curious if you had personal knowledge. Again, thanks.

DFrost


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## Cate Helfgott (Feb 16, 2009)

I kind of felt like I should add my two cents of Mike-props in here too.

I actually bought my first pieces of equipment from him, and have done a bit of training with him and also been by his kennel in WV. 

He's really every good thing that the folks have said about him.

~Cate

Just a disclaimer so as _not_ to harm his rep, he absolutey called me crazy when I showed up with white sherms (and he should have :twisted He then proceeded to help me....and I'm pretty sure he was the first one to really seriously help me out and start trying to educate me about protection despite my white furballs.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Help an old man out here; what in the world is a "white sherm".

DFrost


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

David Frost said:


> Help an old man out here; what in the world is a "white sherm".
> 
> DFrost


LMAO, I don't consider myself old......and I am still wondering myself..........LOL


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: I have always heard that our problem is that we play baseball here, and dog training is not such a big part of our lives. It makes sense. 

Look at a lot of the personality types that get into dog sports and you can see why right away why it is a no go. I took a friend of mine to the club I was in at the time and the next thing I know he is in the car.

I walk over to see what is up, and he explained to me that if they said one more thing about you, he was going to punch someone in the head, and that he needed to leave. LOL (none of my old friends are "dog sport" people. )

On the ride out, he asked how I put up with the "chickenshit *******". I remember the car getting quiet, and soon after I was out of dog sports for some time.

Now I am back, and the personality types are the same, and he told me to stick with it, as he knows that I love the sport.

However, no way will I take another friend to a dog sport club.


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## Cate Helfgott (Feb 16, 2009)

David Frost said:


> Help an old man out here; what in the world is a "white sherm".
> 
> DFrost


Sorry -- it's a term I picked up from Dave. A Sherm is a Shepherd. Sherm just sounds more cartoony...which is a descriptor that fits my two pretty well.

~Cate


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Cate Helfgott said:


> Sorry -- it's a term I picked up from Dave. A Sherm is a Shepherd. Sherm just sounds more cartoony...which is a descriptor that fits my two pretty well.
> 
> ~Cate


Ahhh so, thank you. Just when I think I know it all, something like this comes along. ha ha. Surely I have to be getting close now.

DFrost


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## Cate Helfgott (Feb 16, 2009)

David Frost said:


> Ahhh so, thank you. Just when I think I know it all, something like this comes along. ha ha. Surely I have to be getting close now.
> 
> DFrost


lol, I have no idea where he got it from, but he just informed me that it isnt just shepherd, it's sherman heppard...sherm for short. I heard it...the name fit and it stuck.

~Cate


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

I can't take credit, and I won't sully the man's name that I heard say it....lol


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## Loring Cox (Sep 6, 2008)

Even if we did have 400 clubs here training dogs, how many of you are willing to just sell them off like a used car? Anyone here want to sell the FR3, MR3, etc dog that they spent three years training and raising? I have seen some dogs that were bred and trained here in the states that could work the street, but the owner would never part with the dog. The USA just has too much of an emotional connection with our dogs. Maybe if it was like the organizations that train dogs for assistance work? Someone does the puppy work, then off to the basic OB house, then off to the bite development, etc.


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## R Janssen (Jul 25, 2008)

To sell the dog like an used car is for sure not through Loring...

When the dog has proven himself wordy to pass the KNPV certification, 
the owner only wants the best for the dog, And that includes selling him. 

I'm sure your first thoughts will be, why who'd selling be the best for him? 
but if you think about it a little more, it makes sense.
After the certification the dog is "ready", so there is no point in training. 
If you keep the dog he will be the rest of his life in his outside kennel, as a pet.
Its better than to give him a new home with a LE handler, where he can work, make a difference, and maybe more...

Thats also why all the "cream of the cream dogs" go to the Dutch police. (as it should be)
(An "outsider" will not get there hands on those "top dog's")

To part from a dog you have trained intensively over 3 years is for sure not easy, you can only hope he gets a wordy new home...


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## Loring Cox (Sep 6, 2008)

I think that came out a little harsher that I meant. I did not mean that you don't care about the dogs you train, just that you know that eventually the dog will be going away when it is ready. I love my truck but I know sooner or later some other guy will be driving it...

I completely agree with you on the philosophy, however I don't think most people here do. I think most trainers here see the training/titles as a personal achievement rather than for a greater goal. I think a lot of the top dogs that are titled here in the ring sports could do the job but it doesn't seem to happen for whatever reason.

I understand too about the hope that the dog will do well and achieve great things. I post my partner's accomplishments on a Dutch message board and it seems like every trainer there congratulates him and feels a bit of ownership with him. I think it helps them to feel like all the hard work is worth it. I imagine you often wonder where your dogs are and what they have done for us and other police forces.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

I see it the same way. I said here once that I placed tremendous value upon those who... which was stated in a context of those who serve(d) in the military or some sort of public service, and that of course also meant dogs who might accompany those individuals in their line of work. I think it was misread simply to prove a point I wasn't making at all.

I believe in leaving things better than you found them and contributing to something greater than thy self. For me, that "greater" cannot be fully realized through a sport if not taken to a higher level in some way. Maybe to some the reality is that maybe I'm not skilled enough to be all that good at sport training. Maybe I'm just not competitive enough.

Me thinks, that my priorities and values are simply elsewhere. That said, I could and do someday hope to be capable of working with dogs that are utilized in some capacity to help others.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Loring Cox said:


> I completely agree with you on the philosophy, however I don't think most people here do. I think most trainers here see the training/titles as a personal achievement rather than for a greater goal. I think a lot of the top dogs that are titled here in the ring sports could do the job but it doesn't seem to happen for whatever reason.


I think the difference is that in KNPV the goal is to train/title the dog so it can be sold as a police dog. For many people in Ring the goal is to train/title the dog to a III so they can compete with the dog. For many people the title when the dog is 2-3 isn't the ultimate goal, the ability to compete for the next 4-5 years with the dog is. So the wouldn't be ready to sell the dog until it was 7 or 8, way to late for a department to be interested.


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## Loring Cox (Sep 6, 2008)

So if the rules were changed in FR to be like KNPV and once you titled you were done trialing, would you still want to do FR? Is it the training or the competing that you enjoy more?

If you had to decide between someone giving you a perfectly trained dog that you took trialing, or being the person who did the training but never trialed the dog which would you pick?


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Loring Cox said:


> So if the rules were changed in FR to be like KNPV and once you titled you were done trialing, would you still want to do FR?


Me personally, yes. I consider FR to be one of the best "foundations" for almost anything else I want to do with a dog. It doesn't cover everything, IE there is nothing in FR that requires me to teach a dog to track, but the basic skills I teach the dog make it easy to cross train the dog for a wide variety of other things. Plus I just like the sport  



> Is it the training or the competing that you enjoy more?


Both. I train to have fun, and I enjoy competing. I train way to many dogs at any given time though to try to be truly competitive in any given sport, so winning big events isn't my personal goal. If it was I'd focus on just one dog. So if once I finished the FRIII I wasn't allowed to trial in FR anymore with that dog, I'd just go trial in MR or Sch or obedience, agility, herding, whatever. But that's me, I can't speak for the other people doing Ring. I like training, but at the same time I enjoy a dog once the foundation work is done and we can work on higher level stuff or "polishing". I don't think I'd want to always be starting over. Granted I do that now every few years, but I also have the older/trained dog to compete with while I bring the next dog up.



> If you had to decide between someone giving you a perfectly trained dog that you took trialing, or being the person who did the training but never trialed the dog which would you pick?


I'd pick the former. I enjoy training, but I also enjoy trialing. If I took a dog already trained for trialing there would still be maintenance work to do, they aren't robots. If it's just about training, and you never have a chance to test your training in some sort of trial setting (I'm not a K9 handler, ranch owner, or other user of a dog in a real world day to day setting, so trials are where I can test my training) then I don't know that I'd bother to train a dog to a III level of ability.


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