# using a "Skinner box" for detection puppy



## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

So I had a litter of puppies here that we were going to start on odor around 7 weeks old. The problem was these little bastards were too crazy to bite everything, and would not take a hot dog from our hand. In fact they would spit a hot dog out so they could bite us. They would not eat from the scent tubes like we normally start our puppies off with, no matter what we did, all they wanted to do was bite us. We tried holding them up to the tubes, we tried holding them back on a leash, we tried starving them for two days and filling a tube full of food so they would just put their noses in it and learn to eat that way.......nothing worked. They only wanted to bite the person behind the tube. 
So I decided to make this box with a clear plexiglass window for the pups to see us standing behind and learn that they can not bite us, I changed the environment so that there were no other options but to eat from the tube, thus allowing us to charge the marker, and imprint the odor while letting them learn that they can't bite us. 
After 3 sessions they were working like normal with the tubes on the ground.

They are now about 9 weeks old and already two of these pups have been returned for being too hard to handle.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AwzxqlflUIk&feature=youtu.be


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## ko yang (Mar 22, 2012)

Who are the parents to theses pups? Is any still for sale and if so how much?


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

ko yang said:


> Who are the parents to theses pups? Is any still for sale and if so how much?


 They are all sold, this is not an ad to sell a puppy, it is to show the way we had to "think inside the box" to get a crazy puppy to use his head and not be an idiot


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## Travis Ragin (Apr 10, 2010)

Mr.Suttle,


Nice insight into the thought process needed to train these type dogs,and if our U.S. Military needs and wants them like this,then I trust & support their decisions on how to best keep us ordinary citizens safe!=D>


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## Travis Ragin (Apr 10, 2010)

mike suttle said:


> They are now about 9 weeks old and already two of these pups have been returned for being too hard to handle.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AwzxqlflUIk&feature=youtu.be




While watching the video and reading the descriptions.....I was struck by how closely this pups actions(whining,stress,lashing out...) resembled the behavior of these "wild" foxes that were part of "The Russian Sliver Fox Experiment"

*Aggressive* *group:*http://youtu.be/9fC7l6gW05k



*Tame group:*http://youtu.be/0jFGNQScRNY


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## Travis Ragin (Apr 10, 2010)

What have you decided upon as the threshold limit,as to when a breeding line has reached the *genetic* *breaking point* of these dogs essentially going feral?


If someone else attempted to follow this same selection process(which probably is already happening),do you see these "herders"GSD/Mal/DS.. reaching the point of being genetically aggressive "time bombs" and being labeled and lumped in as unstable as a breed like the *Fila Brasileiro* often is?http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&sqi=2&ved=0CCsQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FFila_Brasileiro&ei=Ac_yUZrIFMfjqAHLhYDoDA&usg=AFQjCNEGxyD-kCDXWd0p_MYqHG40wd_cUw&sig2=lYsH98s5z18iUzeHpD5RaA&bvm=bv.49784469,d.cGE&cad=rja


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Travis Ragin said:


> What have you decided upon as the threshold limit,as to when a breeding line has reached the *genetic* *breaking point* of these dogs essentially going feral?
> 
> 
> If someone else attempted to follow this same selection process(which probably is already happening),do you see these "herders"GSD/Mal/DS.. reaching the point of being genetically aggressive "time bombs" and being labeled and lumped in as unstable as a breed like the *Fila Brasileiro* often is?http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&sqi=2&ved=0CCsQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FFila_Brasileiro&ei=Ac_yUZrIFMfjqAHLhYDoDA&usg=AFQjCNEGxyD-kCDXWd0p_MYqHG40wd_cUw&sig2=lYsH98s5z18iUzeHpD5RaA&bvm=bv.49784469,d.cGE&cad=rja


Feral?? 

I dont think for most uses for a dog it is desirable to have small puppies want to bite all the handlers more than eat. I think this is a by-product of breeding that sometime occurs, not a goal.

I am sure that the pups will get straightened out with some good handling and discipline when it is deemed appropriate.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Travis Ragin said:


> While watching the video and reading the descriptions.....I was struck by how closely this pups actions(whining,stress,lashing out...) resembled the behavior of these "wild" foxes that were part of "The Russian Sliver Fox Experiment"
> 
> *Aggressive* *group:*http://youtu.be/9fC7l6gW05k
> 
> ...


LOl, I don't know if you are serious or not, but I will try to keep a straight face and answer you here.
You are comparing a well socialized and very confident puppy to a wild fox in a cage. What do you think that fox would do if he was out of the cage, on the ground with the option to run? ........He'd run!
The puppy will climb in your lap and start to bite (play) like an idiot. Not the same behavior.
The pup in the video is super social, just a very high drive puppy who would rather bite (play) with the trainer than eat. He is going to the forward edge of his box while the fox is crouching in the back side of his cage......not the same behavior. 
the puppy is actively tryin to get to the trainer so that he can play with her, the fox......not so much.
The puppy is frustrated and whining because he can't reach the trainer to bite (play), the fox is stressed because he can't escape his cage when the human approaches.
Like I said, I assume you were joking, but thought I'd clear this up for you anyway.


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## Travis Ragin (Apr 10, 2010)

mike suttle said:


> You are comparing a well socialized and very confident puppy to a wild fox in a cage. What do you think that fox would do if he was out of the cage, on the ground with the option to run? ........He'd run!
> The puppy will climb in your lap and start to bite (play) like an idiot. Not the same behavior.
> The pup in the video is super social, just a very high drive puppy who would rather bite (play) with the trainer than eat. He is going to the forward edge of his box while the fox is crouching in the back side of his cage......not the same behavior.


No,it was a serious question sir.

Sorry if I do not *already* know everything like most on this forum,who relish in sneering and LOL'ing at those attempting to learn.Guess i was wrong in thinking that was the purpose of dog forums?

Anyway,Thank you for pointing that out,I did not see/notice it that way.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Travis Ragin said:


> No,it was a serious question sir.
> 
> Sorry if I do not *already* know everything like most on this forum,who relish in sneering and LOL'ing at those attempting to learn.Guess i was wrong in thinking that was the purpose of dog forums?
> 
> Anyway,Thank you for pointing that out,I did not see/notice it that way.


No worries, You're welcome!


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Outstanding on the Skinner box! Where there's a will there's a way.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> Outstanding on the Skinner box! Where there's a will there's a way.


 Thanks Bob, I know something so simple like "put your nose in this here tube crazy puppy" sounds like it should be easy enough to teach right? We have done it with lots and lots of puppies and they usually get it pretty quick, but these little guys were just so committed to biting us instead of doing anything else that we just simply had no choice. 
Imagine a little terrier that has just seen a rat run under a pallet, now try to get him to focus on something else like the food in your hand.............that is what I was dealing with!
The "skinner box" worked great to fix that, and after three sessions all of the crazy pups were searching the tubes like they should.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Mike, as much as I know about terriers and rats I wouldn't bet against you being able to do that.  ;-)


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

mike suttle said:


> So I had a litter of puppies here that we were going to start on odor around 7 weeks old. The problem was these little bastards were too crazy to bite everything, and would not take a hot dog from our hand. In fact they would spit a hot dog out so they could bite us. They would not eat from the scent tubes like we normally start our puppies off with, no matter what we did, all they wanted to do was bite us. We tried holding them up to the tubes, we tried holding them back on a leash, we tried starving them for two days and filling a tube full of food so they would just put their noses in it and learn to eat that way.......nothing worked. They only wanted to bite the person behind the tube.
> So I decided to make this box with a clear plexiglass window for the pups to see us standing behind and learn that they can not bite us, I changed the environment so that there were no other options but to eat from the tube, thus allowing us to charge the marker, and imprint the odor while letting them learn that they can't bite us.
> After 3 sessions they were working like normal with the tubes on the ground.
> 
> ...


Well at least you know they like to bite ahahahahahahahhahaha, nice idea on the design, I like a person that puts forth effort to make something work.\\/

Mike do you like to pile all odors on at once or individually do it? I prefer all, nothing more than curious to how some others that are big in the industry do it, although I havent done much of shit in awhile been tied the hell up with work crap........


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Harry Keely said:


> Well at least you know they like to bite ahahahahahahahhahaha, nice idea on the design, I like a person that puts forth effort to make something work.\\/
> 
> Mike do you like to pile all odors on at once or individually do it? I prefer all, nothing more than curious to how some others that are big in the industry do it, although I havent done much of shit in awhile been tied the hell up with work crap........


We imprint every odor individually.


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## Michael Murphy (Nov 27, 2010)

mike suttle said:


> So I had a litter of puppies here that we were going to start on odor around 7 weeks old. The problem was these little bastards were too crazy to bite everything, and would not take a hot dog from our hand. In fact they would spit a hot dog out so they could bite us. They would not eat from the scent tubes like we normally start our puppies off with, no matter what we did, all they wanted to do was bite us. We tried holding them up to the tubes, we tried holding them back on a leash, we tried starving them for two days and filling a tube full of food so they would just put their noses in it and learn to eat that way.......nothing worked. They only wanted to bite the person behind the tube.
> So I decided to make this box with a clear plexiglass window for the pups to see us standing behind and learn that they can not bite us, I changed the environment so that there were no other options but to eat from the tube, thus allowing us to charge the marker, and imprint the odor while letting them learn that they can't bite us.
> After 3 sessions they were working like normal with the tubes on the ground.
> 
> ...


PLEASE tell me the pedigreee! [-o<


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## Jeff Kingsley (Oct 3, 2012)

Love your videos! I'm impressed with what what I've seen out of Logan Haus. I am also impressed with your solution. No pressure, positive, clear, and almost no way to for the dog to fail. Great job. 

What scent sources do you use? I work a HRD dog and, although I am super impressed with your work, would prefer a pup without other scent source imprinting (mostly for legal reasons). 

Thanks for sharing!!


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Jeff Kingsley said:


> Love your videos! I'm impressed with what what I've seen out of Logan Haus. I am also impressed with your solution. No pressure, positive, clear, and almost no way to for the dog to fail. Great job.
> 
> What scent sources do you use? I work a HRD dog and, although I am super impressed with your work, would prefer a pup without other scent source imprinting (mostly for legal reasons).
> 
> ...


Thanks Jeff,
We either start our puppies off on narcotics, explosives, HR, or a neutral odor like Birch oil. I just started one of our baby puppies off on HR for a client yesterday. If someone tells me upfront what odor they will work their puppy on, we can start them on that odor before they leave here.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Michael Murphy said:


> PLEASE tell me the pedigreee! [-o<


Rek X Senna
I had a litter from Arco Roosen X Senna that was very nice, a litter from Rudy X Senna that was pretty good, and now this litter from Rek X Senna that was all batshit crazy. Sometimes a pairing of two dogs just goes wrong, in the case of the Rek X Senna litter.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

mike suttle said:


> We imprint every odor individually.


From the start, or after starting all together do to the fact they can brake down individual scents and then going into individual, do you do it for narc, explosives, arson, etc.......... or all the same way?


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## Brian McQuain (Oct 21, 2009)

Harry Keely said:


> From the start, or after starting all together do to the fact they can brake down individual scents and then going into individual, do you do it for narc, explosives, arson, etc.......... or all the same way?


 
The dogs should be able to break down each scent individually, right? So training them on all the scents they will need to know at the same time should be quicker (not that it takes very long anyways) then training each scent individually, which is what we have always done.


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## Ariel Peldunas (Oct 18, 2008)

I don't have the book in front of me, so I can't references pages or chapters (but I think it may be chapter 4?) ...but there is some interesting research based information in K9 Suspect Identification by Adee Schoon and Ruud Haak on how dogs detect multiple odors vs. single odors. When I unearth the book, I will try to post more specific info, but maybe a book that would be worth going out and purchasing if you're really interested in this stuff.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Ariel Peldunas said:


> I don't have the book in front of me, so I can't references pages or chapters (but I think it may be chapter 4?) ...but there is some interesting research based information in K9 Suspect Identification by Adee Schoon and Ruud Haak on how dogs detect multiple odors vs. single odors. When I unearth the book, I will try to post more specific info, but maybe a book that would be worth going out and purchasing if you're really interested in this stuff.


That be cool thanks, I am just curious like I said, I knew what use to work for me and what didnt but hell I am always open to new education pieces so dont be shy and throw it out there when use get it please, thanx.:wink:


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Brian McQuain said:


> The dogs should be able to break down each scent individually, right? So training them on all the scents they will need to know at the same time should be quicker (not that it takes very long anyways) then training each scent individually, which is what we have always done.


Brian I am a firm believer in it from my experiences and some other old school folks, but theres more than one way to skin a cat and I havent skinned one in a long time now. I did start a thread though on detection shit for shits and giiggles and a little bit more on my working experience of scent stuff.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

While I believe that periodically throughout training the dog should be worked on complex odors (several target odors together), I know for sure that the dog will learn each odor faster and more reliable if they are introduced individually. I will vary the amount of each odor, but I dont mix any odors together in the beginning stages. Also in talking to some of the head trainers at US Customs (one of which is a very good friend of mine, with over 30 years experience in training hundreds of detection dogs per year) he has said that when a complex odor signature is presented, sometimes it creates a totally different odor and often dogs will miss one individual component of that odor when it is presented by itself. We all know that dogs can differenciate many odors and seperate them most of the time, but there are certain chemical compounds that create a new odor when combined.
I am not saying our way is the best way, but there is a reason that we use this method. 
I am not going to go too deep into the weeds here, but we prefer to imprint each odor individually.


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## Michael Murphy (Nov 27, 2010)

mike suttle said:


> Rek X Senna
> I had a litter from Arco Roosen X Senna that was very nice, a litter from Rudy X Senna that was pretty good, and now this litter from Rek X Senna that was all batshit crazy. Sometimes a pairing of two dogs just goes wrong, in the case of the Rek X Senna litter.


mike i cant find rek and senna's pedigree anywhere, checked all over the website etc?


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

mike suttle said:


> While I believe that periodically throughout training the dog should be worked on complex odors (several target odors together), I know for sure that the dog will learn each odor faster and more reliable if they are introduced individually. I will vary the amount of each odor, but I dont mix any odors together in the beginning stages. Also in talking to some of the head trainers at US Customs (one of which is a very good friend of mine, with over 30 years experience in training hundreds of detection dogs per year) he has said that when a complex odor signature is presented, sometimes it creates a totally different odor and often dogs will miss one individual component of that odor when it is presented by itself. We all know that dogs can differenciate many odors and seperate them most of the time, but there are certain chemical compounds that create a new odor when combined.
> I am not saying our way is the best way, but there is a reason that we use this method.
> I am not going to go too deep into the weeds here, but we prefer to imprint each odor individually.


gotcha fella, thanks for the reply


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## Ted Summers (May 14, 2012)

Man... very cool. Very very cool. You want them to bite....just not now. Managed to keep them from biting by just removing the option :-k. I suspect apprehension work with them will come quickly \\/:razz:

I always say dogs are the quintessential economists. They respond to incentives and are self-interested only.


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Harry, 

Re: odors - what type of detection work were you doing?

Cadaver? Explosive? Narcotic? Arson? Something else?


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## Edward Weiss (Sep 19, 2011)

The puppy scent work makes me wonder about hunting dog scent discrimination.
At HWA(Airedale Nationals) find the racoon in a tree is made interesting by using diversion possum and fox scent with diversion animals sitting in cage 20 to 50 yards off racoon track.Hard hunting Dale will ignore them.
Most start young dogs on bottled scent seems to work great.

Also taught my dog difference between hunt and find as starting command. With find he did foot print to foot print deep nose and hunt air scented until close in .

Nice work with the box.


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