# Inquiry to those skilled with e collar usage and applications



## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

I'm interested in knowing from those of you who utlize e collars for specific or unique applications - where did you obtain this information from?

Did you simply read about it? Was it trail and error? Did you attend a seminar? Did someone show you? Is there a specific documented resource or someone you would recommend to receive instruction from?

I've been thinking for quite a while about learning a new skillset or acquiring specific knowledge in an area that, due to my geographical location, I may not necessarily need to depend upon another in order to execute/maintain. Gaining a better/high level understanding of the use/applications of e collars seemed to be a viable option to explore.


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## Louise Jollyman (Jun 2, 2009)

I was shown by a friend, using a crate and teaching a dog how to switch the stim off by going in to the crate. This was in preparation to enforce the recall. This is still the 1st e-collar exercise I do with my dogs when they are between 6mths-18mths old. It is definitely something which is better to learn in person.

I also went to several seminars later including Bart Bellon and Jogi Zank.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

This is a good start. I had Bart Bellon in mind when posting this. I seem to recall that he may be involved in 1-2 seminars in the US this year but that might be it for 2013, which got me thinking that if that's the case and he is someone that others would recommend I should seriously start looking into attending one of his seminars. I informally made plans to travel to Germany last fall for this purpose but was unable to do so because of work related commitments.

Do you mind elaborating on the seminars you attended? Do you feel the are geared for the novice and even if not, do you feel you learned enough to take away and continue in practice/application in a productive manner on your own?


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## Louise Jollyman (Jun 2, 2009)

I don't think either were really useful for a novice. I think I saw Bart in 2006 in the UK, I had done the recall exercise with about 5 dogs at that point and expanded to a couple of other commands. The key really is how you feel about the e-collar in the first place. 

I admit I was resistant for the first 3 years I worked with my first dog. I trained him to SchH3 without any use of the e-collar, but consistently had problems with the recall, so I opened my mind, withdrew my emotions and began to learn. An interesting side effect with him was he was very handler sensitive, and he actually handled e-stim as punishment better than raised voice or physical corrections.

I don't know of anyone I would start the e-collar training with though I'm sure there are some folks who can show you the crate exercise, I just don't know anyone.


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## Louise Jollyman (Jun 2, 2009)

I guess this might do as an introduction - http://www.dobbsdogs.com/library/schutzhund/schutz.html


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Nicole, the ecollar is just another form of pressure. one that often causes much less conflict with the handler than the use of collar and leash.

It does not take a genius to use one efficiently for most basic things, although there are also many incredible things that a genius can do with one.

I am by no means an ecollar guru, or certified expert, but can use an ecollar proficiently for quite a few things. 

if using is as corrective device, that is very comparable to other forms of correction in its usage.

using it as a form of pressure, or motivator is a little more tricky, but it does not take an expert to do it. it is still pretty straightforward.

hands on training is best. but if not, reading, watching, learning in that method, and then experimenting and implementing by yourself, exploring can be fine, if you have a good grasp of the concepts and take it slowly and carefully.

I have never attended an ecollar seminar, or had extensive specific hands on training with one. I do not pretend to be a guru with an ecollar, but am proficient enough to use on on my dogs, and other peoples dogs safely and effectively.

I dont use the ecollar as a major tool in an ecollar based "system" persay. 

when I use it, I try to think of why I am using it, what I want to get out of it, and then use it in the best way to get that desired result.

many people have a knack for things, dog training can be one of them.
some people with major education and instruction will still be worse off than a person that has a natural aptitude for it.

there are plenty of vids online, both Fred hassen SMS, and Bart Bellon, that will give people some major insight..although Fred doesnt really explain much about what he is doing..LOL


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Joby thank you. If it helps, I am acquainted with most of the points you made and from that it appears that summarized, your response is that a seminar or one on one instruction from someone probably isn't necessary to effectively use and apply it because it's a fairly simple and straight forward tool to use and adapt training to.

Maybe you need to be in my head a little bit to understand what my actual motivation is. I've never seen anyone use or necessarily explain their method of using a collar for anything other than heeling and outs. I am not satisfied with that and would like an opportunity to see a higher or more refined application of such in practice even if that means someone personally helping me work with my own dog as opposed to attending a seminar. 

This may not make sense to you but it's not enough for me to hear or read about something I want to learn about. There's an element I draw upon that goes far deeper when seeing the process and experience unfold before me. It's a bit difficult to explain but if I don't feel it, I don't think, say or do it. It's just the way I operate. Confined, in that regard? Yeah, probably so.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Nicole Stark said:


> Joby thank you. If it helps, I am acquainted with most of the points you made and from that it appears that summarized, your response is that a seminar or one on one instruction from someone probably isn't necessary to effectively use and apply it because it's a fairly simple and straight forward tool to use and adapt training to.
> 
> Maybe you need to be in my head a little bit to understand what my actual motivation is. I've never seen anyone use or necessarily explain their method of using a collar for anything other than heeling and outs. I am not satisfied with that and would like an opportunity to see a higher or more refined application of such in practice even if that means someone personally helping me work with my own dog as opposed to attending a seminar.
> 
> This may not make sense to you but it's not enough for me to hear or read about something I want to learn about. There's an element I draw upon that goes far deeper when seeing the process and experience unfold before me. It's a bit difficult to explain but if I don't feel it, I don't think, say or do it. It's just the way I operate. Confined, in that regard? Yeah, probably so.


pick a behavior besides heeling and outs.


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## lannie dulin (Sep 4, 2012)

Joby Becker said:


> pick a behavior besides heeling and outs.


Aye, works great in any situation you would issue a correction. I just started it on my female (although not my first time with the e-collar) and it actually worked better than a leash correction when used for position and focus work. I think when I issue a correction with the leash it is more animated I say "nope", and flick the lease. With the e-collar (set to 25, I like to use low stim) I say "nope" and she never sees me move while issuing the correction. 

PS - it's very hard to do any position work from a distance without an e-collar. Try putting the dog on tie-out and stand 20 feet away and issue a command. Then use the e-collar for correction. Of course you'll have to return to the dog to issue a reward.


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## Peter Cho (Apr 21, 2010)

Learned virtually all e collar work from Lance Collins and gained much knowledge from Jogi Zank.

The use of the e collar is very different in each phase of learning.....teaching, proofing, and securing. 

Many animal studies have shown that if an animal has control over the EXPECTED stimulus, there is less stress hormone (as measured by levels of cortisol) in the bloodstream. Well, the e collar does that and you can see the performances at very high level competitions, where OUTLOOK makes a huge difference in overall performance. proof in in the pudding as it were.

I don't think anyone would argue at this point that the correct use of the e collar produces happier competition dogs. 

I know it produces a better bond between dog and handler. To me, this is the biggest reason I use the collar. I don't correct him. He created the correction or stiim. 
But to teach him how to control the collar takes months and months of basic meticulous work. So, many simply revert to using it as a positive punishment tool.

it is a tool that manages threshhold, better timed corrections, overcomes the limitations of a leash (distance), but it gives not direction.

I would start a 12 week old pup on the collar. Teach it positively that it is the master of his own fate. It has ALL the control. 

Now, if you did not know how to work with a leash, an e collar will be of no use. In fact, it will make things worse. But it is THE most important piece of equipment I have. .......besides my mental focus.........which sucks sometimes. #-o


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## Ted Summers (May 14, 2012)

Peter Cho said:


> Learned virtually all e collar work from Lance Collins and gained much knowledge from Jogi Zank.
> 
> The use of the e collar is very different in each phase of learning.....teaching, proofing, and securing.
> 
> ...



Excellent advice =D>


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

i don't agree it takes many months to learn how to use an Ecollar effectively.

but i do feel it takes more time to condition the dog and longer to set up and tweak settings than most people bother with. probably brought on by not having a good training plan, progressing too fast and not being able to read their dog well. 

which are probably also the most common errors most of us make in our training, no matter what "tools" we are using //lol//


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

rick smith said:


> i don't agree it takes many months to learn how to use an Ecollar effectively.
> 
> but i do feel it takes more time to condition the dog and longer to set up and tweak settings than most people bother with. probably brought on by not having a good training plan, progressing too fast and not being able to read their dog well.
> 
> which are probably also the most common errors most of us make in our training, no matter what "tools" we are using //lol//


I could be wrong Rick, but I think that Peter was saying that it take the dog months to learn how to control the collar, through meticulous work, not the handler.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

rick smith said:


> i don't agree it takes many months to learn how to use an Ecollar effectively.
> 
> *but i do feel it takes more time to condition the dog and longer to set up and tweak settings than most people bother with. probably brought on by not having a good training plan, progressing too fast and not being able to read their dog well.
> 
> which are probably also the most common errors most of us make in our training, no matter what "tools" we are using //lol//*


I aslo agree with the last part of this post


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

I think part of the problem is equipment. Too many people try to get away with the cheapest collar they can find. Too hot of a collar or one that gives an inconsistent or no stim makes any real training (and not just punishing) nearly impossible.


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

I learned from a friend. Made some mistakes I won't do next time. I introduced the collar in positions next to me, but didn't use to collar to teach going away from me. For a long time my dog would return to heel position no matter what if I used the e collar, and then would crowd because that was the safe place. It's fixed for the most part but when she does feel pressured she still crowds. Trial by error. Now I know better!  Luckily I met said friend in enough time not to create a bigger problem!

And I agree with Thomas, it's worth the investment for a good, reliable and consistent collar.


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## Peter Cho (Apr 21, 2010)

Joby Becker said:


> I could be wrong Rick, but I think that Peter was saying that it take the dog months to learn how to control the collar, through meticulous work, not the handler.


LOL it takes the handler YEARS to learn the full potential of using this versatile tool.

But for the dog, since their minds work in situational and environmental cognative associations, each exercise requires a learning phase with the e collar. But for each exercise to proceed smoothly, the dog must know the basics or foundation on e collar (how it can control the stim) so that it feels CONFIDENT that there is a solution. This concept is CRUTIAL in creating a HAPPY OUTLOOK. 
The best trainers in the world have one thing in common. They let the DOG figure out the solution and give only one solution. They never bring or force the dog into the behavior. Actually, by definition, bringing or forcing the dog into a behavior is compulsion. 
I sometimes hear this term thrown around and many times it is inaccurate.


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## Ariel Peldunas (Oct 18, 2008)

Peter Cho said:


> LOL it takes the handler YEARS to learn the full potential of using this versatile tool.
> 
> But for the dog, since their minds work in situational and environmental cognative associations, each exercise requires a learning phase with the e collar. But for each exercise to proceed smoothly, the dog must know the basics or foundation on e collar (how it can control the stim) so that it feels CONFIDENT that there is a solution. This concept is CRUTIAL in creating a HAPPY OUTLOOK.
> The best trainers in the world have one thing in common. They let the DOG figure out the solution and give only one solution. They never bring or force the dog into the behavior. Actually, by definition, bringing or forcing the dog into a behavior is compulsion.
> I sometimes hear this term thrown around and many times it is inaccurate.


Peter, could you give an example of how to introduce and progress in usage of the e-collar for a particular, specific behavior (recall, sit ...something basic)?

I first learned to use the e-collar as positive punishment and certainly see its value in that application for addressing one specific behavior or for using in a very specific context (just for the out command or to teach a recall to a pet that has a habit of running away). 

After using it that way for a couple years, I spent some time training with Pat Nolan, a retriever trainer I have grown to know pretty well, and learned how he uses it as negative reinforcement. He doesn't usually give immediate positive reinforcement as with other systems, but I feel he is a master of teaching using negative reinforcement.

I would like to expand my understand of the e-collar and refine my skills and am interested in the differences in how you learned to introduce and teach it. You mentioned taking a young pup or dog and spending months teaching it positively how to control the collar, but being sure not to bring or force the dog into the behavior.

For my understanding (and maybe other people's as well), I think a thorough example would help illustrate this ...if you have the time and inclination.

Thanks!


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## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

rick smith said:


> * i don't agree it takes many months to learn how to use an Ecollar effectively.
> *
> but i do feel it takes more time to condition the dog and longer to set up and tweak settings than most people bother with. probably brought on by not having a good training plan, progressing too fast and not being able to read their dog well.
> 
> which are probably also the most common errors most of us make in our training, no matter what "tools" we are using //lol//


I don't agree either. It takes years to learn everything you can do with an ecollar.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

On hand of the previous posts, this is maybe going to sound dumb.

If I wanted to try out an e-collar I would want to see the dog's reaction to it first off. 

I would throw out a ball which I could verbally stop the dog from chasing after until I had given him the "go" command.

Then I would throw out the ball (far enough away) but not give a command. As the dog raced towards the ball I would give a command to return, down or whatever and press the button.

This way I would not cause any conflicts - it would be like stopping him from crittering but without the risk of it not working.

I must add, I have never used the e-collar for training dog sport, apart from helping my mate - she said "down" and I pressed.


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## Steve Burger (Jan 2, 2009)

Personally I think teaching the ecollar is a bit outside the realm of a forum. There are some basic overviews that you can touch but there is so much involved I think it is extremely important that a person is personally mentored by someone who really knows what they are doing. A seminar might be a good starting point but it really takes more than that, I think. Number one you have to know what you are doing, number 2 you have to know your collar, and number 3 you have to know your dog's reaction level to the collar. And that is even before you start applying training methodology. 

There are a number of factors even when determining a correction threshold. For example if I am working my bitch in obdedience her correction threshold on a Sportdog 1825 (8 levels with a high and low constant for each level) is 3 high. If we are working in protection the 3 would work as a correction as we are getting on the field. Once she is engaged with a helper to block unwanted behavior it might go as high as 5 or 6. sometimes if she gets stubborn it may have to go all the way up. 

for low level stimulation (activation) for in the teaching/showing aspect of training, it will be set to 1 or2.


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## Larry Krohn (Nov 18, 2010)

Steve Burger said:


> Personally I think teaching the ecollar is a bit outside the realm of a forum. There are some basic overviews that you can touch but there is so much involved I think it is extremely important that a person is personally mentored by someone who really knows what they are doing. A seminar might be a good starting point but it really takes more than that, I think. Number one you have to know what you are doing, number 2 you have to know your collar, and number 3 you have to know your dog's reaction level to the collar. And that is even before you start applying training methodology.
> 
> There are a number of factors even when determining a correction threshold. For example if I am working my bitch in obdedience her correction threshold on a Sportdog 1825 (8 levels with a high and low constant for each level) is 3 high. If we are working in protection the 3 would work as a correction as we are getting on the field. Once she is engaged with a helper to block unwanted behavior it might go as high as 5 or 6. sometimes if she gets stubborn it may have to go all the way up.
> 
> for low level stimulation (activation) for in the teaching/showing aspect of training, it will be set to 1 or2.


I could not agree more


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## Ariel Peldunas (Oct 18, 2008)

Steve Burger said:


> Personally I think teaching the ecollar is a bit outside the realm of a forum. There are some basic overviews that you can touch but there is so much involved I think it is extremely important that a person is personally mentored by someone who really knows what they are doing. A seminar might be a good starting point but it really takes more than that, I think. Number one you have to know what you are doing, number 2 you have to know your collar, and number 3 you have to know your dog's reaction level to the collar. And that is even before you start applying training methodology.
> 
> There are a number of factors even when determining a correction threshold. For example if I am working my bitch in obdedience her correction threshold on a Sportdog 1825 (8 levels with a high and low constant for each level) is 3 high. If we are working in protection the 3 would work as a correction as we are getting on the field. Once she is engaged with a helper to block unwanted behavior it might go as high as 5 or 6. sometimes if she gets stubborn it may have to go all the way up.
> 
> for low level stimulation (activation) for in the teaching/showing aspect of training, it will be set to 1 or2.


I'm not sure if this is directed at me, but I wasn't expecting someone to teach me the ins and outs of learning to use an e-collar on an internet forum. But I think it's possible to give a basic overview of a method and explain how it differs from other approaches. I feel many trainers who have a good understanding of how to train and read dogs are able to interpret written words and apply new methods they learn in the process. I don't know why reading about the usage of e-collars would be any different. Of course there are many adjustments to be made, as with any other training method, but I feel many people, myself included, find value in reading about training as well as observing it.

I hope Peter isn't deterred from posting his collar usage and experiences because I feel I could learn something new and valuable.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Gillian Schuler said:


> On hand of the previous posts, this is maybe going to sound dumb.
> 
> If I wanted to try out an e-collar I would want to see the dog's reaction to it first off.
> 
> ...


If you did that, on the 3rd or 4th time the dog will believe he is being punished for chasing the ball and stop chasing it. You will have created a conflict for your dog to retrieve things for you.


I would teach the dog to come when called while out on a walk. Let the dog get out away from me. Turn on the stim from the collar on and then call the dog. When the dog turns to face me I stop the stim. If the dog stops on his way back to me I nick him with the stim. When the dog gets back to me I reward.


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## Steve Burger (Jan 2, 2009)

Ariel Peldunas said:


> I'm not sure if this is directed at me, but I wasn't expecting someone to teach me the ins and outs of learning to use an e-collar on an internet forum. But I think it's possible to give a basic overview of a method and explain how it differs from other approaches. I feel many trainers who have a good understanding of how to train and read dogs are able to interpret written words and apply new methods they learn in the process. I don't know why reading about the usage of e-collars would be any different. Of course there are many adjustments to be made, as with any other training method, but I feel many people, myself included, find value in reading about training as well as observing it.
> 
> I hope Peter isn't deterred from posting his collar usage and experiences because I feel I could learn something new and valuable.


No, not intended to be directed at you. And that is why I mentioned possibility of basic overview. However, I think too many might think that just by reading a few articles they might feel qualified to zap their dogs. I just know it took me a long time to gain the confidence to take charge (no pun intended) with an e-collar. I just had a conversation the other day with a friend (not anyone I know from training or dogsports) who zapped his daughter's dog and sent it running for the hills. It was a day later and it still had not come back. Now I know that this is unlikely to happen here, but it shows what can happen.


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## Peter Cho (Apr 21, 2010)

I agree with Steve. Every dog has differing threshhold so each dog requires differing levels and strategies to reach desired behaviour. 

However, the theory is the same as using a leash. Its not magic.

its too long to type all that is involved and I am no guru. and no amount of written text will convey the techniques involved. 
I will tell you that I started, as per Yogi Zank with a thin string tied to a fursaver...yes, no e collar. ANY stim is controlled by dog. That is what I want to teach, wether it be it from a leash or e collar. 

Speeding up the recall is not any different. Dog knows how to turn the stim off. Faster he comes, HE ABSOLUTELY KNOWS, the stim will turn off. Of course he will fly. He knows slow, lack luster work is NOT acceptable. and the dog KNOWS the correct path. If there is no conflict in the work, there is no sense of urgency and no power in the work. AND the dog clearly understands. AND when they clearly understand with no mixed messages, their cortisol level drops, they look happier.

LOL, I am talking about pretty sophisticated use of e collar. 
I will let you know when I figured it all out. ](*,)

But to say, the e collar made a huge difference in the BOND between me and my dogs would be an understatement.


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## Timothy Saunders (Mar 12, 2009)

I have been to a few Bart Seminars and think it is a good place to start. He knows the theory behind the use. More than a one day seminar is better. If I were you I would write down anything thing I think I wanted to know before I went to the seminar ex( how to condition a dog to the collar?) . Then I would right down questions each day on the information given so he could answer them . Lastly listen when others are asking questions, so many people use seminars as a social events. The problem they are having today is the one you will have tomorrow.


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## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

Steve Burger said:


> Personally I think teaching the ecollar is a bit outside the realm of a forum. There are some basic overviews that you can touch but there is so much involved I think it is extremely important that a person is personally mentored by someone who really knows what they are doing. A seminar might be a good starting point but it really takes more than that, I think. Number one you have to know what you are doing, number 2 you have to know your collar, and number 3 you have to know your dog's reaction level to the collar. And that is even before you start applying training methodology.
> 
> There are a number of factors even when determining a correction threshold. For example if I am working my bitch in obdedience her correction threshold on a Sportdog 1825 (8 levels with a high and low constant for each level) is 3 high. If we are working in protection the 3 would work as a correction as we are getting on the field. Once she is engaged with a helper to block unwanted behavior it might go as high as 5 or 6. sometimes if she gets stubborn it may have to go all the way up.
> 
> for low level stimulation (activation) for in the teaching/showing aspect of training, it will be set to 1 or2.


Fully agree.
We are working with the e-collar for many years and we keep making small adaptations to our training system according the dog we are working. Every dog is different and there is no such thing as ready made rules. We have our general principles but if necessary they are adapted to every individual dog. 
Rule 1: It is VERY important to know your collar and the effect of the different stimulation levels (When buying a new collar, I try out all levels on my own arm and I can assure you that there is a huge difference between the existing brands).
Rule 2: You have to KNOW your dog trough and through. Some dogs are more sensitive then others and some react totally different to stimulations from others. Giving a stimulation that is too hard can result in demotivation, loss of confidence but also in handler aggression. Giving a stim that is too soft can result in dogs that get used to it and don't react. Stims have to be adapted to the individual dog, to the kind of exercise you are doing and to the goal you have (interaction or punishment)
Rule 3 (and a very important one): Think before you act and use your common sense. Don't follow just any advice someone gives you before thinking over if it makes sense and which effect it could give to YOUR dog.
Rule 4: Buy a GOOD collar. Of course everybody has different preferences and different goals, but don't buy an unknown brand collar at the local pet store.
Get information about the different brands and compare the specifications. Look at the size of the receivers and the way they are attached to the collar. Look at the transmitter and see where the buttons are located. The transmitter has to be comfortable in your hand and the buttons must be easy in reach (without having to look down at the collar each time) and easy to push (big difference between the brands, certainly for women with smaller hands and longer nails  ). For me it also is very important to have several levels in direct reach without having to change first.
We always use double receivers on the collar.

Also look at durability and opinions of others who used them.
My first Tritronics dates from 1991 and still works like charm. Of course the large receiver (with antenna...) and the huge cylinder transmitter have become very old fashioned.
We have had several Innoteks and still are very satisfied with some of them (FS500 and Command Series) but in general the receivers are less durable.
The Pac AXT is fine too (several levels in reach and easy to reach buttons) even though the receivers are large.
I don't like the Dogtra very much (large receivers and I don't like the transmitter at all) but I don't know if the models over here are the same as in the US.
I love working with the Martin System with finger kick. We have 2 transmitters and 2 finger kicks programmed on the same collar, so both my husband and I can interact with the dog (we each have 4 levels in direct reach and we don't necessarily have to use the same ones). 
Usually I have my finger kick programmed to an interaction level with my dog and my husband controls the other levels.
My dog wears a neck collar and a waist collar (2 receiver Innotek FS500 Series) and in this way I can interact with my dog through my Martins finger kick while holding the Innotek transmitter to give him a stim in the waist if necessary. My husband holds the 2nd Martins transmitter to direct the different levels of the neck collar.
In general we only use the lower stims for interaction (only if necessary). 
If you teach the dog properly and with respect the bond with him won't be damaged. He'll keep the confidence in his handler and you'll have a happy dog that doesn't need a lot of corrections.
A dog that needs punishment all the time hasn't been trained properly. He doesn't understand what is wanted from him because he probably always had corrections without even knowing why.


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## Ariel Peldunas (Oct 18, 2008)

Timothy Saunders said:


> I have been to a few Bart Seminars and think it is a good place to start. He knows the theory behind the use. More than a one day seminar is better. If I were you I would write down anything thing I think I wanted to know before I went to the seminar ex( how to condition a dog to the collar?) . Then I would right down questions each day on the information given so he could answer them . Lastly listen when others are asking questions, so many people use seminars as a social events. The problem they are having today is the one you will have tomorrow.


I attended a two-day Bart Bellon seminar and I was kind of disappointed. It was a lot of problem solving for specific behaviors and not focused on the collar and his method enough, in my opinion. Not that I doubt that his method can produce great performances and well trained dogs, but I think it's difficult to stick a collar on a dog and fix something like bothering the helper in a 5-10 minute session. A lot of what he did didn't even involve the use of the collar ...some of it was basic marker training and some bite work stuff that involved some of the same concepts (chewy grips addressed by applying pressure with the choke collar and leash ...when the dog stops chewing, the pressure stops). I worked my own dog, hoping to get some tips or constructive criticism and he just said she looked really good, asked if she would perform the same without the collar and reward, which she did, and then asked me to "show off" my training to the other attendees. I was also disappointed that it was very difficult to get in questions. He only took a few questions and then said he was taking a break and spent some time talking to a select few individuals. I'm not doubting him as a trainer (I know what he and his students have accomplished), but I felt like trying to get the info I was seeking was like getting water from a stone. I wanted to learn something above and beyond what I was already doing, but I felt like the seminar was geared mostly towards beginners or problem solving some pretty basic stuff.

I've heard so many people say the way he applies the collar accomplishes amazing things and I can understand what Ne Po Po means (in general OC terms), but I guess I'm just searching for a little better insight to see if there are nuances that I'm missing that could help me improve. It just seems like everyone is so tight lipped about what they've learned. I hate to spend another $300+ to see the same things I saw last time and it's really difficult (and costly) to try to get a private session with him. I just know, it's not just about setting the collar to the right level for the dog or removing the stim when they do what you want or giving the dog positive reinforcement when appropriate ...it's about rewarding proper attitude and effort. I just wish someone could give some specific example of how this method or that method, properly applied, helped improve something they were working on. I have limited time and money and can't attend every seminar that's out there so I try to get a taste for what someone is doing to see if it's something I would like to learn more about.


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## Ariel Peldunas (Oct 18, 2008)

If there is anyone that would be interested in discussing different methods and the benefits to each, I have some specific questions. These questions aren't for one method or another (unless stated), but I think it would be interesting to see how methods or trainers differ. Also, I have my own opinion on how to deal with some of these situations, but am curious what other trainers would answer some of these questions.

What is the benefit to starting e-collar training/conditioning early vs. just using positive reinforcement or a leash and collar?

Using NePoPo with a pup or young dog that already shows good motivation for food and focus, does the NePo part of the method improve results drastically vs. good reward timing and communication?

Do you start collar conditioning one command until the dog understands what is expected and how to turn off the collar in that context or do you work multiple commands in the same session (in the beginning, before the dog completely understands the collar)?

Does the dog have any understanding of the command prior to collar conditioning or is the teaching of the command and the learning how to control the collar done simultaneously?

If the collar has been used as P+, does it then become more difficult or are there new factors to consider when the trainer begins using it as R-?

If the dog doesn't react to the collar stim at all (when trying to determine the dog's working level prior to beginning collar conditioning), what do you do ...as in the case of a very stoic dog? How high will you continue to advance the stimulation if you see no reaction?

Have you found that once the dog realizes the collar has significance, the dog becomes much more sensitive to the same level you began at? What do you do then?

If the dog ignores the collar for some reason, what do you do? Do you immediately turn the collar up, continue to apply the same level of stim, use continuous instead of nic, etc.?


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## Steve Burger (Jan 2, 2009)

Ariel Peldunas said:


> I've heard so many people say the way he applies the collar accomplishes amazing things and I can understand what Ne Po Po means (in general OC terms),.


We had a discussion of Ne Po Po after a Jogi seminar and came to the conclusion that the words used did not really specifically apply to the scientific terms OC quadrant. At least that is what I recall was Dr. Hoffman's conclusion, and she has a Phd in Animal Behavior.


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## Larry Krohn (Nov 18, 2010)

Ariel Peldunas said:


> If there is anyone that would be interested in discussing different methods and the benefits to each, I have some specific questions. These questions aren't for one method or another (unless stated), but I think it would be interesting to see how methods or trainers differ. Also, I have my own opinion on how to deal with some of these situations, but am curious what other trainers would answer some of these questions.
> 
> What is the benefit to starting e-collar training/conditioning early vs. just using positive reinforcement or a leash and collar?
> 
> ...


Good questions Ariel, I will give you my answers for what it is worth. I have had good success with e collar over several years. I use a lot of Bart's methods along with Michael Ellis. I've been forunate enough to work with both and have learned so much from these two. But I do agree, many go to Bart's seminars hoping to learn how to use an e collar and that is not going to happen. that is a tiny part of Bart's system.

For your first question, I do a lot of positive reinforcement first. I started my young Mal at 9 months old on the e collar because he was ready. he was real fast with everything off leash already so I just wanted that reliability for off leash when we were in public. I don't like to start dogs before 6 or 7 months but some can be ready at 5 months and some you should wait a little longer, but that is what I prefer.

Second question, on a lesser dog the results will be better. On a dog like my Mal that is super drivey and fast already the only benefit really is the ability to control him just in case he decides to blow me off in public. The e collar work can make a fast dog faster but again it takes a lot of experience. NEPOPO definitely is a big plus if you can master that which really is not difficult

I condition with two commands, the recall and send away or place. This comes in handy for a really fast dog that doesnt want to leave your side and is always looking to work for a reward. The recalls is easier to teach when the dog has to stay on a place before he is called. I posted how I condition earlier in this post I believe.

It works either way. Lets say the dog does not know a place command. I will guide and lure to a place then reward with food a few times with no command. Then a few more times but adding a command. Then once he seems to be getting it I add the collar but still reward of course.

Every now and then you will get a very stoic dog but most will give you something. I may be very subtle like the dog is breathing normal and then he closes his mouth or a flick of the tongue. You will figure it out, most give you obvious signs like turning to look at it.

Sorry I skipped one. If you condition the dog properly, the dog will really begin to understand what the stim means. For example, if my dogs are moving away from me or are far away occupied out in a field, if I just tap once they will stop and look at me for a command because they know that means HEY, just pay attention. Then if you need to really hammer them say for running after something or heading into danger, there will not be any confusion and you will not mess them up. Example, I did a board and train for a Dutchie that could not stop chasing and killing small animals. I spent 3 day conditioning the dog, he work in single digits on a Dogtra 280. I look out my window and see three cats in my neighbors yard. I put him on a leash, set the collar to 127, loose leash walking toward the cats. As soon as he saw them he took off, I hit the collar at 127, he jumps out of his skin and comes flying back because he knows what that feeling is, his head is not down, he is not scared, I immediately go back down to single digits and work basic obedience. Next day similar situation but this time hit the collar on a 40, he gives a little squeel, comes back and I go to single digits again. I never had to raise his level again.

They can become more tolerant to the level you began at but many also become reliable at lower levels.

If the dog ignores you go up immediately. I detail how I use nick and continuous in the conditioning steps I wrote. You correct high and you will be able to go lower.

I hope this helps a little. If you can't find the conditioning post I made let me know. I saw your handling skills at one of Bart's seminars, I was very impressed, you are very good. Add this to your arsenal it will only help but unfortunately there is a lot of bad E collar stuff on the net. I am going to make a video this week for a group that asked me to just on conditioning to the ecollar. I will post it if you like. Call me anytime if you need more info.


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## Ariel Peldunas (Oct 18, 2008)

Steve Burger said:


> We had a discussion of Ne Po Po after a Jogi seminar and came to the conclusion that the words used did not really specifically apply to the scientific terms OC quadrant. At least that is what I recall was Dr. Hoffman's conclusion, and she has a Phd in Animal Behavior.


I thought the same ...but most people familiar with the method understand what is meant.

In the simplest of terms, I'd say it's really just NePo ...negative reinforcement is the removal of the collar stim and positive reinforcement is rewarding the behavior. It seems, his method is based less on some new and revolutionary training method and more on exact proper timing and communication.


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## Ariel Peldunas (Oct 18, 2008)

Larry Krohn said:


> Good questions Ariel, I will give you my answers for what it is worth. I have had good success with e collar over several years. I use a lot of Bart's methods along with Michael Ellis. I've been forunate enough to work with both and have learned so much from these two. But I do agree, many go to Bart's seminars hoping to learn how to use an e collar and that is not going to happen. that is a tiny part of Bart's system.
> 
> For your first question, I do a lot of positive reinforcement first. I started my young Mal at 9 months old on the e collar because he was ready. he was real fast with everything off leash already so I just wanted that reliability for off leash when we were in public. I don't like to start dogs before 6 or 7 months but some can be ready at 5 months and some you should wait a little longer, but that is what I prefer.
> 
> ...


Larry, thank you for your reply. I'm getting on the road for a long drive from NJ back to WV, but will look for your other post once I'm back and settled. I feel I have done well with the tools I have an feel I have a good understanding of the e-collar, but sometimes, it still feels foreign and not second nature like other training methods I've used longer and more frequently. I'd really like to feel as though I had mastered the e-collar as well.


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## Larry Krohn (Nov 18, 2010)

Ariel Peldunas said:


> Larry, thank you for your reply. I'm getting on the road for a long drive from NJ back to WV, but will look for your other post once I'm back and settled. I feel I have done well with the tools I have an feel I have a good understanding of the e-collar, but sometimes, it still feels foreign and not second nature like other training methods I've used longer and more frequently. I'd really like to feel as though I had mastered the e-collar as well.


You will Ariel. It just takes a lot of practice but the more you use it the more comfortable you will become in making changes.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

btw, has anyone worked with the chameleon collar ? it seems to have a lot of features i would use with but would like to know how much of the advertising has been used in real conditions on real dogs


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Christopher Smith said:


> If you did that, on the 3rd or 4th time the dog will believe he is being punished for chasing the ball and stop chasing it. You will have created a conflict for your dog to retrieve things for you.
> 
> 
> I would teach the dog to come when called while out on a walk. Let the dog get out away from me. Turn on the stim from the collar on and then call the dog. When the dog turns to face me I stop the stim. If the dog stops on his way back to me I nick him with the stim. When the dog gets back to me I reward.


I would never use it for a 2nd, 3rd or 4th time. I only want to see how the dog reacts without placing him at risk. I want only to see how he reacts to it. If he doesn't react, no harm done, next time higher. If he reacts, I know I hit on the right "stim".

If I try it out on a walk and some errant feline character suddenly appears, the e-collar is too low, the dog ignores it, then I have not accomplished my intentions for using it.

I tried it on my thigh first - and although I was not wary of what was coming, there was absolutel no pain.

We used to have a party at school and we had to go up on to the stage and grab hold of two handles which were attached to low electric volts. As soon as we grabbed them, the "shock" started. If you can do this to kids, you can do it to anything.

I know there are extremely good manuals with each e-collar. However no manufacturer can tell you how high or low the stim must be for each individual dog. Mostly handlers start off with weak and then go higher but I would prefer higher in an enclosed space with a simple exercise. 

Now Franz Jansen of the FCI Commission is blowing his trumpet even more ensuring that dog sports will one day end.

This is off topic but I feel I have to say it. It's not the tool you use, it's the feeling you have for your dog when you are using it. Even a soft collar, "fur saver", etc. can be used unfairly, apart from the negative vibes some people give off when training their dogs who would never admit to being "cruel".


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Gillian Schuler said:


> I would never use it for a 2nd, 3rd or 4th time. I only want to see how the dog reacts without placing him at risk. I want only to see how he reacts to it. If he doesn't react, no harm done, *next time* higher.


 That makes the 2nd time.



> If I try it out on a walk and some errant feline character suddenly appears, the e-collar is too low, the dog ignores it, then I have not accomplished my intentions for using it.


This is completely different than your first scenario. In your first scenario you were looking to turn the dog away from his retrieving object. In the scenario you are now using the collar may work fine because you never want the dogs to chase a cat. Using the collar in the way that you plan on using it will extinguish a behavior completely.

Why would a dog turn and come back to you instead of continue chasing the cat? Do you think that the dog may believe that the cat is a source of the stimulation thus creating a fight and making the dog chase the cat with more intensity? What are you going to do if the dog decides to not turn and come back to you and pushes through the high stimulation you are using?



> I tried it on my thigh first - and although I was not wary of what was coming, there was absolutel no pain.


That does not mean that the dog does not feel pain. Further, you are not taking into account that you are only stimulating yourself once. The dog will be stimulated many times and that may have psychological factors that you are not taking into account.



> I know there are extremely good manuals with each e-collar.


Where are these manuals that you speak of?


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Christopher Smith said:


> That makes the 2nd time.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This was my dilemma with thinking of trying to use it for a disobedience aspect of livestock work--just as you've outlined it. There is a chance that the dog will understand it but there is also a chance that he will interpreted just as you've said which creates greater problems to fix.

T


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Its all relative, better to aire on the side of caution for sure.

One of the big ones I choose to use it for was calling dog off of a long send to the decoy. Started fairly heavy..Dog showed very minor hesitation issues for a very short time (that first day). And since then has taken 1st place in 5/5 Hardest Hitting contests.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> Its all relative, better to aire on the side of caution for sure.
> 
> One of the big ones I choose to use it for was calling dog off of a long send to the decoy. Started fairly heavy..Dog showed very minor hesitation issues for a very short time (that first day). And since then has taken 1st place in 5/5 Hardest Hitting contests.


I think the desired behavior has to be well understood and something the dog is really into with no room for interpretation before trying it; but yes, risky for sure.

T


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> I think the desired behavior has to be well understood and something the dog is really into with no room for interpretation before trying it; but yes, risky for sure.
> 
> T


risk is what YOU choose to expose too..

I choose to NOT expose to much risk..minimal is my motto


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