# Anyone here ever disappointed with their working dog?



## Patrick Murray (Mar 27, 2006)

I have a 5 year-old, female, Czech GSD that I received at 12 weeks of age from a supposedly reputable working GSD breeder, whom will go unnamed. I love her but I gave up on her a long time ago at being a ppd. She's a great companion and we love her tremendously. However, I didn't have to pay $2k + shipping to get a "pet" quality dog. 

I think my next dog will be a Dutch Shepherd as I believe I have a better chance of getting a dog that can be an excellent ppd. My biggest fear, though, is having another protection dog that can't protect. The money is beside the point. Once I get the dog it's mine for life. I'll never give away a dog just because it can't work. 

Any thoughts or advice? Thanks in advance.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

what are the dogs shortcomings in your eyes?


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## Patrick Murray (Mar 27, 2006)

Joby Becker said:


> what are the dogs shortcomings in your eyes?


Fear, submissiveness.


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Patrick Murray said:


> I have a 5 year-old, female, Czech GSD that I received at 12 weeks of age from a supposedly reputable working GSD breeder, whom will go unnamed. I love her but I gave up on her a long time ago at being a ppd. She's a great companion and we love her tremendously. However, I didn't have to pay $2k + shipping to get a "pet" quality dog.
> 
> I think my next dog will be a Dutch Shepherd as I believe I have a better chance of getting a dog that can be an excellent ppd. My biggest fear, though, is having another protection dog that can't protect. The money is beside the point. Once I get the dog it's mine for life. I'll never give away a dog just because it can't work.
> 
> Any thoughts or advice? Thanks in advance.


How are the litter mates doing? Any info on that? Was she submissive as a pup, fearful? What was done with her in terms of training? Has she been this way from day one or did it evolve over time? What's her age?

For your new dog make sure to get a good bloodline, check if any previous litters have been bred in a specific combination that you look at and see how they are doing.


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## Patrick Murray (Mar 27, 2006)

Alice Bezemer said:


> How are the litter mates doing? Any info on that? Was she submissive as a pup, fearful? What was done with her in terms of training? Has she been this way from day one or did it evolve over time? What's her age?
> 
> For your new dog make sure to get a good bloodline, check if any previous litters have been bred in a specific combination that you look at and see how they are doing.


I have no information on her litter mates. 

The first thing I noticed about her was her lack of interest in chasing and biting balls, tugs, etc. This was a concern for me but I knew a ppd (GSD) that was the same way in that it didn't care to chase a ball but it would bite the bejeebers out of anyone who messed with it or its handler. So, I didn't fret about that. I'm convinced that she had a hereditary dog-fear issue as she was, from the get-go, fearful and aggressive toward any and all other dogs, excepting the two adult dogs that I owned. 

I didn't do a lot of training with her because, as I just mentioned, she had very little interest in chasing or biting, which was a stark contrast to the current ppd that I had at the time who was a dream to train because he had drive out the wazoo and was always an eager participant in anything. 

I guess I first noticed a real fear in her when people unknown to her would come around. She'd growl, lower her head and keep her distance. Sometimes she would come and hide behind me. lol. She's still that way. 

Anyway, I didn't really try to work her through those things because, frankly, I don't want to try to mold her into something she is never going to be. 

For my next dog, I don't want to take on a project. I want a pup that is confident, inquisitive and NOT naturally fearful of other dogs, people, etc. I want a pup that wants to get out and meet people, go places and that will LOVE to chase a ball and bite on a tug. I want a pup that will look up to me with a look on its face as if it's saying "What are we going to do now, Dad? Huh? Huh? Huh? Come on Dad!" That's a fun pup to work with and that's a pup that can grown into a quality family companion as well as a solid ppd. 

So, who has a Dutch pup/malinois that will be THAT pup for me? :grin:


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Patrick Murray said:


> I have no information on her litter mates.
> 
> The first thing I noticed about her was her lack of interest in chasing and biting balls, tugs, etc. This was a concern for me but I knew a ppd (GSD) that was the same way in that it didn't care to chase a ball but it would bite the bejeebers out of anyone who messed with it or its handler. So, I didn't fret about that. I'm convinced that she had a hereditary dog-fear issue as she was, from the get-go, fearful and aggressive toward any and all other dogs, excepting the two adult dogs that I owned.
> 
> ...


Do good research! Look into bloodlines that grab your interest and go from there. Look into the offspring and parents to see what has developed in order to get an idea of what you are going to get.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

I've got a little Dutch and love that dog. Everything I wanted for my own first working dog, I got. Everything.

This includes a relatively low level of suspicion. That means no noise, not typically anyway, which is something probably not considered ideal for a ppd. 

She's not here to serve that role though. I like dogs and generally like to keep a few around to do stuff with. It's not this dog that acts as a deterrent to others though, its my mastiff that makes some people uneasy. 

I really like both dogs. They are different enough from one another that I have every want or need met by both dogs.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

I have been disappointed in a lot of things, but usually with dogs find that they either fit my lifestyle or not. They are what they are, and if they have problems, I caused them.

I'd say if you didn't have a guarantee, you kind of get what you get. You can't really say what is training and what is learned for that pup that you had since 12 weeks. 

On the flip side, I'd hope the breeder would help you out and find something more suitable. A discount might be nice, but it depends on how he feels about the dog in question, and how it got that way. If you get a second pup and it turns out the same, it may be you.

I think it's fantastic that you want to keep the dog no matter what. not too many like that.


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## Karen M Wood (Jun 23, 2012)

I understand your frustrations.
I was once sent a boxer that my sister located in Alabama. She saw the dog at home, he was the last of a litter that an older couple had bred. Nice looking dog. Solid temperament at home and in his yard. I agreed to take the dog for training as my Mom's boxer/pit was getting really old and not really up to being a guard dog much longer.
He was visibly upset with being removed from his natural surroundings when i picked him up. And had pretty much bonded with his crate.
I worked with this dog for weeks, literally prying him out of the kennel. If i took him for a walk he looked back at the house until we were too far away for him to see it, but as soon as we got half way around the lake (it's a mile from door to door) he started dragging me back to the house. I took him to work every day at the vet clinic i worked at. All the employees did everything they could to make friends with him, have fun with him, take him out he's drag them back inside. Finally after 3 months of trying everything. Play, obedience class, behaviorist friend. I called my sister and told her this dog won't work.
I'm giving him to boxer rescue. He acted like i beat him daily with a 2X4 but i never even raised my voice. The only positive thing he had while he was here was he liked to play with Gladys my Am Bulldog.

I'm glad to hear you don't toss out the less than perfect dogs. As i'm a sucker and sending Jazz to rescue was the best thing i could have done for him. And from what they told me he was adopted by and older couple and now lives on the beach in Ft Myers.
Good luck with finding a dutchie. I know of the bang up shepherd pups coming, from a breeder in the states. And that says a lot of what i think of these pups because i don't even like shepherds. (too hairy)


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

I've never been disappointed with any of my dogs. They don't always excel at the sport/activity I want to do but I figure it's my fault for not motivating them or picking the correct training method. I'm really glad to hear that you're keeping her even though she isn't exactly what you'd hoped for. Dogs aren't disposable for me either.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Dave Colborn said:


> I have been disappointed in a lot of things, but usually with dogs find that they either fit my lifestyle or not. They are what they are, and if they have problems, I caused them.
> 
> I'd say if you didn't have a guarantee, you kind of get what you get. You can't really say what is training and what is learned for that pup that you had since 12 weeks.
> 
> ...


I agree, especially with: *They are what they are, and if they have problems, I caused them.* 
I figure my dogs are far from perfect, as am I. I have been frustrated, but I know that in better hands, obviously the dogs would have been better, so the issues have more to do with my abilities than with the dogs. I have seen people who constantly get different dogs and then have similar issues with the dogs, almost like a running theme. This tells me the issues are more with the owner.


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## Megan Bell (Apr 20, 2010)

Are you completely sold on a Dutchie? I think if your looking for strictly a PPD, you may want to look into Butch Hendersons bouvs.


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

Just because it has stripes, doesn't necessarily mean it's a good dog. I suppose because they are less common than GSDs and bred more for the work/sport market and not so much for the pet market, there is a better chance of getting a good one.

My last foster was a DS. Sweet dog, but major issues and nowhere near good enough to be a working dog. Foster before that was DS x Mal pup, also not a good candidate for work. Buyer beware and choose your breeder carefully. 

As for my personal dogs... it took me a while to appreciate what my Mali has to offer. He's not the strongest dog, but he's got tons of drive and a willing attitude to take on whatever I throw at him. My DS is a nice girlie. Not over the top extreme, but no slouch either and perfect for me. A bit quirky, but I can live with that.


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## Michael Murphy (Nov 27, 2010)

Patrick Murray said:


> I have a 5 year-old, female, Czech GSD that I received at 12 weeks of age from a supposedly reputable working GSD breeder, whom will go unnamed. I love her but I gave up on her a long time ago at being a ppd. She's a great companion and we love her tremendously. However, I didn't have to pay $2k + shipping to get a "pet" quality dog.
> 
> I think my next dog will be a Dutch Shepherd as I believe I have a better chance of getting a dog that can be an excellent ppd. My biggest fear, though, is having another protection dog that can't protect. The money is beside the point. Once I get the dog it's mine for life. I'll never give away a dog just because it can't work.
> 
> Any thoughts or advice? Thanks in advance.


pedigree of dog, or dogs in the pedigree ?


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## Michael Murphy (Nov 27, 2010)

Alice Bezemer said:


> How are the litter mates doing? Any info on that? Was she submissive as a pup, fearful? What was done with her in terms of training? Has she been this way from day one or did it evolve over time? What's her age?
> 
> For your new dog make sure to get a good bloodline, check if any previous litters have been bred in a specific combination that you look at and see how they are doing.


Alice i know you have a lot of experience and i have the same fear as the poster, what bloodlines in the knpv mal or dutch would you trust and/or studs? pm me if you can be bothered :neutral:

(ps i am very clear it is up to the trainer to bring it out in the pup, i have learn't that lesson)


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## Ricky Mav (Jul 28, 2011)

I was originally disappointed with the Malinois I have now. When I adopted him he came with a lot of issues; not a lot of prey drive (I thought), non-obedient to previous owner, environmental, people, when I walked him it seemed like it was the first time he saw cars, things that were still like a bicycle spooked, stationary people as well. 

I adopted him because my other Malinois had died recently and I felt sorry for the dog because he was being passed around from owner to owner. I could tell that he was crated/caged a lot and hated it because of the marks on his canine teeth. 

Two years later and after a few thousand miles on the road (trips); all the above issues are gone,the progress started as soon as I adopted him, it took six months to iron many of those issues out. I did it with what I call 'saturation training', I took him everywhere I could, I made everyplace his 'training ground' , food helped because he loves food, then tug, then ball, etc. 

I'm not saying that he a super dog now, but his personality has taken a 180. I think that it's great that you kept the dog even though it disappointed you.


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## Maureen A Osborn (Feb 12, 2010)

Yep, a female dogo i got at 12 weeks, she immediately showed fear aggression towards dogs and people. No matter how much socializing, etc I did, never got over it. 2 of her littermates are like this also I came to find out. She is great with us, but no one else. I finally found a dog that she now can get along with, but that is only because the other dog is so rock stable and sound that her response to her aggressing at her were play bows, dancing, and running around, LOL. Some said to PTS, but we spayed her and kept her, since she is good with us and seems overall happy when not taken out of her environment.


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## Patrick Murray (Mar 27, 2006)

Thanks for all of the great feedback!


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Perhaps, you should skip the whole puppy thing and go right for a dog 12-18-24 months old. That way you will have an idea of what you're getting. Yeah, you will be paying a bit more but it's better than shelling out all those $$$'s for dogs that are pet quality. 

I've washed out 2 of my dogs from SAR work after 18-24 months of training because they would never be good enough. However, one of my SAR dogs that washed-out of the FEMA disaster dog program and was handed around until I got him at 4 yrs old. Under me, the dog turned into an ace mantrailer, cadaver, evidence dog. So there is life after failure. This showed me that failure for one owner/handler may not mean failure for another. It could be your GSD would blossom and be a great PPD under someone else. So don't abandon the idea of re-homing a dog sometimes its better for them in the long run. I kept up with both of the re-homed dogs and, trust me, they got a better deal than if I had kept them.


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## Patrick Murray (Mar 27, 2006)

Sarah Platts said:


> Perhaps, you should skip the whole puppy thing and go right for a dog 12-18-24 months old. That way you will have an idea of what you're getting. Yeah, you will be paying a bit more but it's better than shelling out all those $$$'s for dogs that are pet quality.


That may be the way to go!


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

I'm more surprised at people who have never been disappointed with a dog they've had at least once than those that have.


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## Meg O'Donovan (Aug 20, 2012)

Sarah Platts said:


> Perhaps, you should skip the whole puppy thing and go right for a dog 12-18-24 months old. That way you will have an idea of what you're getting. Yeah, you will be paying a bit more but it's better than shelling out all those $$$'s for dogs that are pet quality.
> 
> I've washed out 2 of my dogs from SAR work after 18-24 months of training because they would never be good enough. However, one of my SAR dogs that washed-out of the FEMA disaster dog program and was handed around until I got him at 4 yrs old. Under me, the dog turned into an ace mantrailer, cadaver, evidence dog. So there is life after failure. This showed me that failure for one owner/handler may not mean failure for another. It could be your GSD would blossom and be a great PPD under someone else. So don't abandon the idea of re-homing a dog sometimes its better for them in the long run. I kept up with both of the re-homed dogs and, trust me, they got a better deal than if I had kept them.



The Cinderella story about the 4-year-old dog was nice to hear. Sometimes the fit is just right.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

They may not suit my purposes, but maybe my purposes don't suit the dog. 

Should I be disappointed with the dog for something he can't control? I guess if I do have the disappointed feelings they are very short lived. it's not the dogs fault, so you squash those feelings and move on.



Katie Finlay said:


> I'm more surprised at people who have never been disappointed with a dog they've had at least once than those that have.


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Sarah Platts said:


> Perhaps, you should skip the whole puppy thing and go right for a dog 12-18-24 months old. That way you will have an idea of what you're getting. Yeah, you will be paying a bit more but it's better than shelling out all those $$$'s for dogs that are pet quality.
> 
> I've washed out 2 of my dogs from SAR work after 18-24 months of training because they would never be good enough. However, one of my SAR dogs that washed-out of the FEMA disaster dog program and was handed around until I got him at 4 yrs old. Under me, the dog turned into an ace mantrailer, cadaver, evidence dog. So there is life after failure. This showed me that failure for one owner/handler may not mean failure for another. It could be your GSD would blossom and be a great PPD under someone else. So don't abandon the idea of re-homing a dog sometimes its better for them in the long run. I kept up with both of the re-homed dogs and, trust me, they got a better deal than if I had kept them.


What a great post!!


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

Dave Colborn said:


> They may not suit my purposes, but maybe my purposes don't suit the dog.
> 
> Should I be disappointed with the dog for something he can't control? I guess if I do have the disappointed feelings they are very short lived. it's not the dogs fault, so you squash those feelings and move on.


I don't think you have to remain disappointed with the dog forever, but I find it interesting that someone feels they've never been disappointed with one of their dogs. Ie. My dog is horribly unreliable, and it's through no mistake in her training. It's disappointing, but I'm not disappointed every day. You move on, just like you said. But to say I've never been disappointed in her would be a lie.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

I find it interesting that someone with limited experience finds themselves with an "unreliable dog" and is convinced that there is "nothing wrong with the training"? Reliability is more then the methods you use to train. How many trainers have you worked with? My dogs can be unreliable but it's because of the way I train and proof. It has little to do with the dogs themselves


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

Thomas Barriano said:


> I find it interesting that someone with limited experience finds themselves with an "unreliable dog" and is convinced that there is "nothing wrong with the training"? Reliability is more then the methods you use to train. How many trainers have you worked with? My dogs can be unreliable but it's because of the way I train and proof. It has little to do with the dogs themselves


Yep, I totally agree reliability is more than just training methods. In my case, it's not.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Katie Finlay said:


> I don't think you have to remain disappointed with the dog forever, but I find it interesting that someone feels they've never been disappointed with one of their dogs.


I have, it was with my Mastiff. It was my own arrogance that set that into motion though. There is a reason you don't see Dogue de Bordeaux with sport titles on them. A few with a BH yes, but nothing else. Yet, I was convinced that I would be the first to do it. What I didn't understand or wasn't prepared to embrace is that there are certain things that will never counter what genetics may present you with.

Disappointed? Yes, absolutely I was. In fact, I turned that inward and took it personally. Finally, after 18 months of hard work I turned the dog over to the life that she was genetically wired for. It wasn't until then that I came to appreciate what a magnificent animal I had before me. And then, I did indeed accomplish a first with her. 

This dog has over 1000 miles on her which started at 7 months of age when she put on 22 miles in 3 days. It just grew from there. This is probably nothing special to anyone here, but when you consider the breed it is something remarkable. I remember when I got into the breed people told me that the things I wanted to do with them couldn't be done. Later, I even had a GSD breeder tell me that breeders wouldn't sell me a dog if they knew what I did with my dogs. 

Little did she know was that for years people had offered me dozens of adults and pups at no charge and in less than a year she would also be of them. She wasn't the last and that certainly hasn't changed since I switched breeds.


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

Nicole Stark said:


> I have, it was with my Mastiff. It was my own arrogance that set that into motion though. There is a reason you don't see Dogue de Bordeaux with sport titles on them. A few with a BH yes, but nothing else. Yet, I was convinced that I would be the first to do it. What I didn't understand or wasn't prepared to embrace is that there are certain things that will never counter what genetics may present you with.
> 
> Disappointed? Yes, absolutely I was. In fact, I turned that inward and took it personally. Finally, after 18 months of hard work I turned the dog over to the life that she was genetically wired for. It wasn't until then that I came to appreciate what a magnificent animal I had before me. And then, I did indeed accomplish a first with her.
> 
> ...


That's what I mean. You were disappointed, but you didn't let it ruin the dog for you. You learned how best to work with her and used her in ways she excelled.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

I think we are in agreement, only using a different way of looking at it.

If I am asking a dog to do something and it can't or wont, I am responsible for the outcome. I own it. Even if I am disappointed prior to moving on, it is usually me. If you can't look back and see where the blame lies, then you can never solve the issue. You can't find the root cause of the problem.

If you buy a motorcycle to go four wheeling, who is at fault for having two wheels when you want four? Where should the disappointment lie? 

If I can't realize it's my unrealistic expectations or bad training with a dog, I am destined to repeat the mistake.



Katie Finlay said:


> I don't think you have to remain disappointed with the dog forever, but I find it interesting that someone feels they've never been disappointed with one of their dogs. Ie. My dog is horribly unreliable, and it's through no mistake in her training. It's disappointing, but I'm not disappointed every day. You move on, just like you said. But to say I've never been disappointed in her would be a lie.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Katie Finlay said:


> That's what I mean. You were disappointed, but you didn't let it ruin the dog for you. You learned how best to work with her and used her in ways she excelled.


I see a difference between being disappointed that you can't do a particular sport or activity and being disappointed with the dog.
It's not the dogs fault for being what he is OR what we make them. I do stuff that my dogs may not be good at but I don't do stuff that they don't like 
Of course they may just be pretending to like something to please me?


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

Dave Colborn said:


> I think we are in agreement, only using a different way of looking at it.
> 
> If I am asking a dog to do something and it can't or wont, I am responsible for the outcome. I own it. Even if I am disappointed prior to moving on, it is usually me. If you can't look back and see where the blame lies, then you can never solve the issue. You can't find the root cause of the problem.
> 
> ...


Gotcha, yes I agree. Whether it's me or the dog, I'll certainly be disappointed but I don't have trouble accepting it for what it is. After all, she's probably happier running around the yard in a ball anyway!


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Dave Colborn said:


> If I can't realize it's my unrealistic expectations or bad training with a dog, I am destined to repeat the mistake.



That's the smartest thing that's been posted on the WDF for a LONG time


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Thomas. Don't accuse me of that.... 



Thomas Barriano said:


> That's the smartest thing that's been posted on the WDF for a LONG time


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Katie Finlay said:


> My dog is horribly unreliable, and it's through no mistake in her training.


What do you attribute this to? Do you have a solution in mind?


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Katie, what do you mean by unreliable and how old is the dog? Is this the GSD bitch?

I can't say I've been disappointed with my overall dogs either. Each has been a training experience and I've learned from that but I have a life with them outside of the work. With each, I've pretty much known what I was getting into [except for the load/explode prey] and if certain things were difficult or didn't work, that's because of the learning curve. I look at it as each one teaches me SOMETHING. 

T


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I hope over the years I've learned to recognize the limitations in myself and the dogs I've owned. 
I've learned to select the dog for a particular job but you can also learn to select the work for the dog. 
Putting a dog in a job it can't do is a head banger unless your just having fun training it.


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## Erynn Lucas (Dec 10, 2008)

Puppies are a crapshoot very often. Well bred, well brought up dogs aren't always 100% superstars. I had a GSD that was bred to the hilt. Poor grip, poor drive, poor courage. Instead of trying to force him in to something he was not, I placed him in a pet home. Everyone was happy.

OP, you want a more sure thing? Do like the other posted said and go with 18-24 month dog.


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## Doug Wright 2 (Jul 24, 2011)

Patrick, I feel your pain. My GSD has just turned 3 and I'm struggling with whether to cut my loses and begin with another. I have no question that my dog will bite but dont know how and for how long. Civil he does well and chomps to bite an offered hand. He has conflict with a bite suit which is what we need to work targeting. Haveing to take baby steps week after week after week is expensive. I wish my dog would throw me a bone. I dont want to quit because I like the work. 

Good luck, you know whats best.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Patrick and Doug

Based on my limited GSD experience. Some mature slowly. They need their prey drive developed. They aren't all that anxious to please their owners (you're just the body on the other end of the leash) Try another decoy before giving up on the dog.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

I'm curious if anyone else would describe a GSD as viewing their owner as just another body on the end of the leash? Patrick, where did this dog come from and did she show any of these fear behaviors as a puppy? I don't believe its a breed thing but more an issue of selection.

T


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

People with more GSD experience will know what I mean. I put Gwr on a long line and put a decoy (sleeve or suit) in front of him and I can hand the line to anyone or tie him off on anything and he wouldn't notice. He is starting to get the idea that I'm not going to let him go bite unless he sits, downs, looks at me (what ever) but if I didn't have a line or e-collar he'd probably go anyway. 
Anyway back to the original topic. I'll try a different training technique, or a different decoy or a different sport before I give up on my dog.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

I think the missed part of this is that the dog was bought to be a protection dog...the term is variable for sure... but if purchased seriously for that purpose, with expectation of suitability, there could surely be a feeling of disappointment.

Using different training techniques or seeing different trainers cannot fix a dog that lacks character traits necessary to do certian things.

I have been dissappointed in many choices I have made, I have also felt dissappointed that a dog I put the time money and effort into, did not work out..but I dont blame the dog, I am the one that made the choice to bring it home...I on the other hand do not feel obligated to keep every unsuitable dog forever, if life allows me to have more than a dog or two at the time, then I have kept a couple dogs that were nice pets, and at other times I have moved them out.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> I think the missed part of this is that the dog was bought to be a protection dog...the term is variable for sure... but if purchased seriously for that purpose, with expectation of suitability, there could surely be a feeling of disappointment.
> 
> Using different training techniques or seeing different trainers cannot fix a dog that lacks character traits necessary to do certian things.
> 
> I have been dissappointed in many choices I have made, I have also felt dissappointed that a dog I put the time money and effort into, did not work out..but I dont blame the dog, I am the one that made the choice to bring it home...I on the other hand do not feel obligated to keep every unsuitable dog forever, if life allows me to have more than a dog or two at the time, then I have kept a couple dogs that were nice pets, and at other times I have moved them out.


I agree. The dog doesn't have the basic character I would expect of a GSD so understand the "disappointment." Its not something you can fix with the right trainer or decoy and why would you want to bite train a dog that instinctively goes into fear biter mode and wants to hide behind you. So you chalk that one up to experience. However, I don't think its a breed thing--GSD vs. Dutchie/Mal vs. APBT. Its a selection issue so I'd have to look back and try to figure out where I went wrong with selecting the dog given what I wanted if I were in Patrick's shoes. Next, it takes a long time to get a handle on different lines and what they produce so don't do anything hasty. People have to speak your language to understand what you are trying to describe as far as ideal character traits. 

T


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

Joby Becker said:


> I think the missed part of this is that the dog was bought to be a protection dog...the term is variable for sure... but if purchased seriously for that purpose, with expectation of suitability, there could surely be a feeling of disappointment.
> 
> Using different training techniques or seeing different trainers cannot fix a dog that lacks character traits necessary to do certian things.
> 
> I have been dissappointed in many choices I have made, I have also felt dissappointed that a dog I put the time money and effort into, did not work out..but I dont blame the dog, I am the one that made the choice to bring it home...I on the other hand do not feel obligated to keep every unsuitable dog forever, if life allows me to have more than a dog or two at the time, then I have kept a couple dogs that were nice pets, and at other times I have moved them out.


Couldn't have said it better!


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

Unfortunately, I'm feel like I'm starting to see this characteristic in GSDs quite often.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

"Using different training techniques or seeing different trainers cannot fix a dog that lacks character traits necessary to do certian things."


Agreed IF the dog really "lacks character traits". Lots of dogs get washed out and rejected because some trainers talk more then walk and have one way to train. If you try a couple of different things with the dog and they all fail. Then it's probably the dog. If you try one type of training/trainer and you get poor results? I'd look at the training first.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Katie Finlay said:


> Unfortunately, I'm feel like I'm starting to see this characteristic in GSDs quite often.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


what characteristic? what other gsds do you have contact with. are you referencing yours?

T


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

fear/ submissiveness?


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> what characteristic? what other gsds do you have contact with. are you referencing yours?
> 
> T


I just see as many unsuited for protection work as I do suited for it. I wouldn't call this dog "uncharacteristic" for the breed. I'm not referencing my own, but I've trained with multiple GSDs at multiple clubs and seen them at multiple trials.

I guess uncharacteristic for the breed standard, but not surprising.

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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

I guess uncharacteristic for the breed standard but not surprising.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Katie Finlay said:


> I just see as many unsuited for protection work as I do suited for it. I wouldn't call this dog "uncharacteristic" for the breed. I'm not referencing my own, but I've trained with multiple GSDs at multiple clubs and seen them at multiple trials.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


it is always disheartening to assess a dog for someone (with a lot of knowledge or not) and having to tell them that thier GSD (or other breed) is really not suitable...that it lacks the basic tools. especailly when they paid lots of money and listened to their breeder.. who just might have not been as knowledgable as they led on.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

But it doesn't sound like anyone is telling them that they are unsuitable. From what Katie is saying, they are training and trialing them anyway. Hard to believe that what Patrick is describing in his dog is somehow being trained and trialed in bite sports. 

T


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> But it doesn't sound like anyone is telling them that they are unsuitable. From what Katie is saying, they are training and trialing them anyway. Hard to believe that what Patrick is describing in his dog is somehow being trained and trialed in bite sports.
> 
> T


Patricks concern is not with Bite Sports.

I hate to bash any sport here, but in my experiences it is quite possible to get a title in IPO with what I would call a fearful dog, probably French Ring 1 as well, if the prey drive is strong enough and the training is good enough.

I have worked with lots of "PP" dogs, although it is highly variable, I always evaluate a dog, and give my synopsis of the traits required.

you can test a mature dog similarly as to how a police dog vendor/trainer might, and base an opinion on the dogs traits.

the results of the eval, given in the context of the expectations is often not good.

we are not talking about a dog engaging a helper or decoy for the equipment. but a dog that will act in the face of obvious threat...

if a dog will stand up for himself, most of the time he can be trained to stand up for his people or property...

it is not infallible, some dogs that appear to be lacking can also come through depending on the circumstances and expectations and requirements,,,and others that seemed to be good candidates will fail..

there are no guarantees, only guesses...


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

What Joby said. And yes even in the sports they are being trained and trialed. Trust me, they walk away in the 70s but they'll pass if it's the right club trial.


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

And a lot of time they know they're unsuitable and really don't expect much from the dog. But they train and trial for fun. It gets disappointing and complicated when you want to reach high levels of the sports or if you are looking for a dog for PP.


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## Rob Kringel (Aug 2, 2011)

Patrick Murray said:


> I have a 5 year-old, female, Czech GSD that I received at 12 weeks of age from a supposedly reputable working GSD breeder, whom will go unnamed. I love her but I gave up on her a long time ago at being a ppd. She's a great companion and we love her tremendously. However, I didn't have to pay $2k + shipping to get a "pet" quality dog.
> 
> I think my next dog will be a Dutch Shepherd as I believe I have a better chance of getting a dog that can be an excellent ppd. My biggest fear, though, is having another protection dog that can't protect. The money is beside the point. Once I get the dog it's mine for life. I'll never give away a dog just because it can't work.
> 
> Any thoughts or advice? Thanks in advance.


 
I have a dog that I am disappointed in the results that I have acheived with him. He is a fantastic dog. Very strong nerved, great drive for everything but what I want him to do. Loves ALL people. Not afraid of anyone, ever. We have been trying to do IPO for about a year but he does not take it serious. No real aggression towards the helper. Loves a good fight and will engage with enthusiasm but the instant the helper stops aggressing, he completely looses interest. His H&B is pathetic. This is because he has no suspicion and the sleeve is only midly interesting to him. On the flip side he is a great family dog and I can trust him 100% in public and in mixed company. My wife takes him to work and he will pal around with my children and thier crazy friends. I know he will protect if the threat is real because he really loves a fight and has demonstrated it in training. He is just not advancing in IPO and I am at a loss on how to move him forward.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

Rob
?? can you elaborate on this part :
"His H&B is pathetic. This is because he has no suspicion and the sleeve is only midly interesting to him."

would be interesting to see vids of him doing what you describe

maybe you/him need a more challenging sport and a more experienced trainer because the way you describe him sounds fine if he truly is a driven dog...is the IPO OB done with a high level of drive and focus ?


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## Laura Bollschweiler (Apr 25, 2008)

Rob Kringel said:


> I have a dog that I am disappointed in the results that I have acheived with him. He is a fantastic dog. Very strong nerved, great drive for everything but what I want him to do. Loves ALL people. Not afraid of anyone, ever. We have been trying to do IPO for about a year but he does not take it serious.


How is his tracking and obedience? That's 2/3 of the sport! 
Sounds like a nice dog. I hate management of unstable dogs. 

There are things you can try with a dog with ball drive but if I say them here, people will probably talk about how protection is supposed to protecting. It's probably true, but sometimes people just wanna have fun with their dogs they have. I'll dare say that I bet a lot of dogs don't take it serious and are Joe Sport Dogs. Ruination of the breed, blah, blah, blah. 

Good luck with him...make him the best tracking and obedience dog out there while everyone else is spending their efforts on the protection phase. 

Laura


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Rob Kringel said:


> I have a dog that I am disappointed in the results that I have acheived with him. He is a fantastic dog. Very strong nerved, great drive for everything but what I want him to do. Loves ALL people. Not afraid of anyone, ever. We have been trying to do IPO for about a year but he does not take it serious. No real aggression towards the helper. Loves a good fight and will engage with enthusiasm but the instant the helper stops aggressing, he completely looses interest. His H&B is pathetic. This is because he has no suspicion and the sleeve is only midly interesting to him. On the flip side he is a great family dog and I can trust him 100% in public and in mixed company. My wife takes him to work and he will pal around with my children and thier crazy friends. I know he will protect if the threat is real because he really loves a fight and has demonstrated it in training. He is just not advancing in IPO and I am at a loss on how to move him forward.


Hey Rob Isn't your dog just around 2 years old? He might be losing focus when the helper is passive because he is still young in the head. It's not difficult for a helper to teach him what can happen if he loses focus when the helper becomes passive. It could be he's just waiting for your dog to mature before he teaches him that particular lesson.


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## Doug Wright 2 (Jul 24, 2011)

Rob Kringel said:


> This is because he has no suspicion and the sleeve is only midly interesting to him. On the flip side he is a great family dog and I can trust him 100% in public and in mixed company. My wife takes him to work and he will pal around with my children and thier crazy friends. I know he will protect if the threat is real because he really loves a fight and has demonstrated it in training. He is just not advancing in IPO and I am at a loss on how to move him forward.


I like how you put it "and the sleeve is only mildly interesting to him." Our dogs must be related how does your dog react to civil aggitation? Since working confidence drills on the table, my dog is hot. But he, like your dog, is disinterested in the sleeve or bite suit. Which sucks for me because I love to see him do the work. I found that if I use his frisbee as his reward for a good bite, I gdt a lot of intensity. Weird right? I toss it a short distance once then it goes to the ground with the leave it command. I send him on the suited helper and we get a good fight. I out him and tell him to "get it" which means he can have his frisbee. 

I know its a little out of the box but it gets me the behavior Im looking for in his bitework. I chalk his disinterest up to poor foundation training in prsy work. Although he loves his tug, sleeve work wasn't made fun for him. Same with bite suit work. I'm of the thinking that its because defense was started to soon before he was made comfortable wiith the equipment. 

Coulda-woulda-shoulda. Too late now. He's still my best dog ever.


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## Doug Wright 2 (Jul 24, 2011)

Rob, like your dog mine is also mildly interested in the sleeve. How is your dog reaction to civil aggitation? After building confidence on the table my dog is now hot. But it didn't do anytihng to make the training equipment appealing. His intensity decreases when the sleeve is visable or the helper is in the suit. This sucks for me because it limits what I can train on. He does not see winning the training equipment as a reward. However, my dog is a frisbee freak. The mere sight of one gets him all shakey inside. While the helper is on the field, I'll send toss the frisbee once and out him after he brings it back. He dances waiting for me to pick it up and throw it but instead I give him the "leave it command" bring him to the foose position and send him on the helper in prey for a fun bite. I've discovered that his intensity and fight improved greatly. After a good fight, I'll out him and tell him to "get it" which means he can have his frrisbee and then I'll give him a few tosses and put him up for a bit. I had to think out of the box so that I could continue his training.

He's three now. I contribute his lack of interest in training equipment due to poor foundation training in prey work. He loves his tug but the transition between tug and sleeve and sleeve and bitesuit wasn't done properly coupled with too early defense training. In hind sight, the transitions should have been made more fun and exciting for him. To late now, woulda-coulda-shoulda.

I know by incorporating my dogs frisbee into his training is kinda out there, even my trainer was like "WTF?" But its working and I"m gettting the behaviors I want to see in this bite work. Like I said earlier, he's quite the civil dog. i just needed an extra tool to teach technique. The key for me was finding finding the right reward.


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

susan tuck said:


> Hey Rob Isn't your dog just around 2 years old? He might be losing focus when the helper is passive because he is still young in the head. It's not difficult for a helper to teach him what can happen if he loses focus when the helper becomes passive. It could be he's just waiting for your dog to mature before he teaches him that particular lesson.


What Susan said!


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

A puppy is a crap shoot...end of story!


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## Rob Kringel (Aug 2, 2011)

susan tuck said:


> Hey Rob Isn't your dog just around 2 years old? He might be losing focus when the helper is passive because he is still young in the head. It's not difficult for a helper to teach him what can happen if he loses focus when the helper becomes passive. It could be he's just waiting for your dog to mature before he teaches him that particular lesson.


 
Yes he is only 2. I keep thinking that maybe he just still a puppy in the head. He is a good dog. I never said I was disappointed in him, just in our progress. I am sure that much of it can be attributed to my poor training skills.


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## Rob Kringel (Aug 2, 2011)

Doug Wright 2 said:


> I like how you put it "and the sleeve is only mildly interesting to him." Our dogs must be related how does your dog react to civil aggitation? Since working confidence drills on the table, my dog is hot. But he, like your dog, is disinterested in the sleeve or bite suit. Which sucks for me because I love to see him do the work. I found that if I use his frisbee as his reward for a good bite, I gdt a lot of intensity. Weird right? I toss it a short distance once then it goes to the ground with the leave it command. I send him on the suited helper and we get a good fight. I out him and tell him to "get it" which means he can have his frisbee.
> 
> I know its a little out of the box but it gets me the behavior Im looking for in his bitework. I chalk his disinterest up to poor foundation training in prsy work. Although he loves his tug, sleeve work wasn't made fun for him. Same with bite suit work. I'm of the thinking that its because defense was started to soon before he was made comfortable wiith the equipment.
> 
> Coulda-woulda-shoulda. Too late now. He's still my best dog ever.


He is fantasic as long as pressure is applied. He will switch from prey to defense back to prey very smoothly when the helper switches. The problem is when the helper is idle, so is he. 

As far as your thinking out of the box suggestion I think if I were able to throw him a cat as a reward, I might see a whole new level of enthusiasm!


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## Doug Wright 2 (Jul 24, 2011)

I was trying to keep it nice. But.a.cat would due too


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

whoaa there !! ...don't assume everyone will appreciate your dumb cat humor because there might be a few more people like me reading your posts 

i have a few and they are VERY dog savvy and if i "threw your dog" at one in particular, i'd bet my next retirement check your dog would be running in the opposite direction in pain with it's tail between its legs .... in a microsecond /lol/
...dogs can get lucky, but i have yet to see a dog with quicker reactions than a cat

cat haters really don't bother me since they are just showing how little they know about cats. and i've had lots of cat haters who boarded dogs here that left with a totally different attitude 

- anyway, just because you like dogs doesn't require you to not like cats to be a "dog person", or vice versa 

or ..... maybe i'm wrong again, and no one on this forum likes cats and believes they should be used as rewards ...


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## Doug Wright 2 (Jul 24, 2011)

It was a joke. Get it - dogs chasing cats. Dont you watch cartoons?


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## Rob Kringel (Aug 2, 2011)

rick smith said:


> whoaa there !! ...don't assume everyone will appreciate your dumb cat humor because there might be a few more people like me reading your posts
> 
> i have a few and they are VERY dog savvy and if i "threw your dog" at one in particular, i'd bet my next retirement check your dog would be running in the opposite direction in pain with it's tail between its legs .... in a microsecond /lol/
> ...dogs can get lucky, but i have yet to see a dog with quicker reactions than a cat
> ...


I didn't say I didn't like cats. I just wish I could harness that insane "cat chasing drive" and use it in something more productive. Maybe if the helper would dress up like a big cat I could get more interest out of my dog.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

rick smith said:


> or ..... maybe i'm wrong again, and no one on this forum likes cats and believes they should be used as rewards ...


 Nothing about cats is rewarding.


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## Erynn Lucas (Dec 10, 2008)

They're fuzzy. And their quiet disdain for everything makes me chuckle. We will always have a cat. 






Grammar junkies note two proper forms in a short post!! Hehehehe.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Erynn Lucas said:


> Grammar junkies note two proper forms in a short post!! Hehehehe.


hahahaha!!!


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