# Burn Out?



## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

I am being told by a group of about 3 service dog handlers about "burn out" which is apparently widely recognized and I'm the only one who doesn't....

Here's the post:


> Tops trainers NOW in any field. Actually email them, or call them, and ask them about burnout. All styles of training. Anything from Khoeler up to Pryor and Dunbar. All of their methods can produce burnout.* With some dogs there is no remedy. They are ruined for that job*.


Seriously? I think it's simply bad training and don't believe anything is permanent. I am completely opposed to the suggestion.

How about you? Have I missed really a lot in the last year? Or is this bogus?


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## Mary Buck (Apr 7, 2010)

I don't believe in burnout nor do I believe in ringwise (another rationale for crap in Trials) I believe good effective engaged training gets good results with the caveat that dogs are dogs and make mistakes...just like humans.


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## Tanith Wheeler (Jun 5, 2009)

I've seen some dogs who would be described by people as being 'burnt out'.

What I generally see is a good dog with incorrect proofing against an environment / for an exercise who are so nervous of what their handler will do that they almost completely shut down. Becoming more rare these days as kinder methods are more common but I do still see it and it's normally a dog who has been beat down.


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

This isnt burn out, but I do see some dogs that are not suited to some types of dog sports. I see this in agility. 

I also see this occur with some of the best handlers, they will usually take these dogs out of trialing and move on. Sometimes they find pet homes for them, sometimes if they have the space they keep them. 

I myself have 2 dogs who are complete freaks for agility, they would do it endlessly and they win. I also have a shy rescue with an abusive history and he tries very hard for me and does really well but he doesnt as yet unleash in the ring like the other 2 and is put off easily, although things are improving and he enjoys it. 

Then I have one who runs clear, made it into Masters easily, does everything right but I know doesnt enjoy it, she does it because she is trained and I ask her to but I can tell the difference. I no longer trial her and she is a happier dog for it.


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## Steve Estrada (Mar 6, 2011)

You're right Sara, if they aren't happy or predisposed to the work they'll burn out. I've seen people do the same, work a dog because it's what they want. Also training needs to be fun for both handler & dog no matter what the venue. JMHO!


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

I give up. They are now adamant that it is "too much, too soon." I guess my puppy is going to burn out any day now. :lol:

Thanks for the feedback, I appreciate it.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

I absolutely believe in burn out, both physical and mental.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

I posted a training video and they're suddenly silent. 

Maren - can you expand on that? I respect your opinion/experience and would like to know why.

I won't disagree that a dog's performance will suffer with bad training - especially a lot of bad training. But I don't think it is inevitable in every training method or that heavy puppy socialization will cause. Or that it's permanent/irreversible.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

It's been my experience in a few sports that when you take some time off, the dogs often come back real excited to work and perform again, sometimes even at a higher level than they were before. Since dogs are not robots, I do think they get mentally and physically fatigued from having to perform at a high level constantly. I usually think of the agility people because some folks train and trial 50+ weeks a year since indoor facilities are often accessible. A time of rest, both physical and mental, and just allowing them to be dogs again is often pretty valuable. Like the last month, we were in pretty heavy training for PSA for the trial last weekend, so my dog has this week off to kind of rest and recharge and be a dog before dock diving season hits big in a few weeks with two national level events and then we have more PSA to train for later this summer/fall. We will start more conditioning (hill sprints, lots of water retrieves for endurance) by this weekend.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

You're talking about levels of physical and mental activity WAY more than what these other people are. So I totally agree with you. I did not consider the performance dogs when I was thinking about "does this exist?"


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Burnout is simply the handler and/or the dog no longer enjoy what they are doing. The reasons can vary.
Ring wise is a term used for poor training. 
Dogs and humans do make mistakes but if the mistakes continue it's a training issue.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

It will just depend on the individual dog. Dogs that are more difficult to motivate, who get more easily stressed, or who are more independent by nature may be more prone to this, regardless of their activities.


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## julie allen (Dec 24, 2010)

If the dog is having fun, isn't over stressed what is there to get burned out on?
Look at high drive dogs, do they burn out chasing a ball? It's fun, they understand it, and they get the reward. 
If your training is fun, teach them to understand what you are asking, and they get a reward, no burn out.

If the dog is getting tired of it, look at the training methods. Too far too fast can cause issues. Slow down and make sure the dog is solid, keep all training fun, be sure it understands what is asked by keeping things simple until its ready to move on, and change things up. Not every dog can be trained effectively with only one method. Sometimes its the trainer that causes the dog to fail.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> Burnout is simply the handler and/or the dog no longer enjoy what they are doing. The reasons can vary.
> Ring wise is a term used for poor training.
> Dogs and humans do make mistakes but if the mistakes continue it's a training issue.



I agree. I think "burn out" is just another way of saying the dog and/or handler are bored.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

So why do so many kids who play soccer from the time they can walk suffer from BURN OUT?
The answer can go back to the basics: too much pressure, too often, and with little reward. In short, as a former coach and referee I call it being *bored*! Dogs that don't see the reward or pleasure in something will also shutdown, get bored, or as it has been coined face "burn out."


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Howard Gaines III said:


> So why do so many kids who play soccer from the time they can walk suffer from BURN OUT?
> The answer can go back to the basics: too much pressure, too often, and with little reward. In short, as a former coach and referee I call it being *bored*! Dogs that don't see the reward or pleasure in something will also shutdown, get bored, or as it has been coined face "burn out."


And some kids hate competing in sport because their personality is not suited to it. I was a very good swimmer, being an ocean person and part fish, but for the whole of my school life pretended I couldnt swim very well to avoid being forced to compete. If there was one thing I hated as a kid it was competing in front of a crowd. Many teachers didnt get that so it was easier swallow my pride and to pretend I was bad at something I was actually very good at.

Didnt matter how much I loved a sport, or how good I was in training or doing it for myself, I still didnt like competing although I did at times, my nerves sometimes put me into lockdown and my muscles would seize up. These days being a lot older I dont mind so much when I run agility because there are lots of rings running and noone cares but I still get gripped by fear when I make a state final and they run one ring at a time with everyone watching.

I know my dogs all react differently and I train them all. I have dogs that never seem to burn out and seem to always up the anti when they hit the trial ring like they are itching to nail it and the trial ring excites them and one that burns out easily and turns down a notch in the trial ring no matter how I train her, so I dont trial her now. I have several who are works in progress and I will see how they go.
.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

I don't believe it's purely boredom either, though that can be part of it. I got burned out several times in vet school and it was not because it was boring or not fun or not rewarding (though I am sure that was part of it too). Sometimes you just get cognitive overload and the brain just has to rest. The threshold for this, like anything, will be dependent on the individual.


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## Dick van Leeuwen (Nov 28, 2006)

Whats the difference between dogs and humans in this ??? Both can...:-(


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## Jay Quinn (Apr 1, 2012)

oh burn out is definitely possible, and very real, i've experienced it recently myself and i'm still getting over it... 

in my case it was going around in circles doing the same shit night after night (the same 2 static sites and a patrol run, but mostly as a result of the patrol run), and getting screwed around with hours ALL OVER the place, NO kind of routine AT ALL, no ability to plan anything and actually manage to keep said plans... work was running my life and i was losing my frigging mind, i had no idea what day it was half the time, didn't know if i was coming or going... the house looked like a bomb had hit it, i wasn't eating anything that didnt come out of a can or the freezer and then straight into the microwave (it's actually still sitting on the stove top... and i refuse to use the oven as this place is a rental)... 

i've been with a new company for around 4mths now... and my short term memory is still that of a goldfish... but i'm starting to feel a bit better about things... i actually manage to do some cooking a few days a week (even if it is still in the nuke-o-matic it's not just heating pre-prepared shit)... get some cleaning done every week and have been remembering to put the bins out (had forgotten for like 2mths straight at one stage)... having a puppy for about 3 of those 4 months has meant my sleep has stayed screwed up, but he's something else in my life that's fresh and new and makes me get up and go outside, go new places because i have to socialise him, etc... my main dog is pretty low maintenance... i could get away with free feeding him kibble, and i'd taught him how to open one of the doors by himself so if he had to go out to toilet while i was sleeping he didn't need to wake me up... puppy has to stay in his crate to prevent total destruction while i am sleeping, so i need to get up to let him out... bad cause i get crappy broken sleep but good because i can't just ignore him, i *have* to get up and tend to him... 



ugghhh thought train derailed... really must attempt sleep...


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

julie allen said:


> If the dog is having fun, isn't over stressed what is there to get burned out on?
> Look at high drive dogs, do they burn out chasing a ball? It's fun, they understand it, and they get the reward.
> If your training is fun, teach them to understand what you are asking, and they get a reward, no burn out.
> 
> If the dog is getting tired of it, look at the training methods. Too far too fast can cause issues. Slow down and make sure the dog is solid, keep all training fun, be sure it understands what is asked by keeping things simple until its ready to move on, and change things up. Not every dog can be trained effectively with only one method. Sometimes its the trainer that causes the dog to fail.


Exactly. I think the term is mostly used as an excuse for bad training and/or bad dog selection.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

The reason you can't BROAD BRUSH everything...
One statement can't work for everything, but I do understand what others are saying and I think dogs are no different. They will chase a rabbit until it is caught, they are tired, or the thrill is out of it. 

If the reward factor isn't met, they call off the chase, if PPD training is the game and the threat is too high then some dogs go into avoidance. We have all seen enough behaviors to write books. Again, broad brushed can't always work IMO.


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

I'm with Maren, rest is essential. No rest, high stress, continous high level performance CAN cause burn out.
Same as with people


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Jay Quinn said:


> (it's actually still sitting on the stove top... and i refuse to use the oven as this place is a rental)...
> ..... i actually manage to do some cooking a few days a week (even if it is still in the nuke-o-matic it's not just heating pre-prepared shit)


just out of curiosity, why wont you use the oven in a rental? lol


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> I'm with Maren, rest is essential. No rest, high stress, continous high level performance CAN cause burn out.
> Same as with people


Yes my thoughts too.


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## Jay Quinn (Apr 1, 2012)

Joby Becker said:


> just out of curiosity, why wont you use the oven in a rental? lol


because estate agents tend to be really picky and fussy about the cleaning of the oven when you move out again... the first two places i rented i used the oven a few times, cleaned it out afterwards each time, after having to clean it before i even used it... left it cleaner than i found it... and both times they made me get a professional in to clean the bloody thing when i left because they said i'd made too much of a mess out of it... so now i take photos of an oven when i arrive, with a camera that has a date stamp on the photo, get a couple of them printed out, whack them in a ziplock back inside the oven and then go look mofos, haven't TOUCHED the damn thing since i opened the door to chuck the photos in... >_<

sorry for the derailment...


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