# Pushing the head...



## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

:mrgreen: Yipes! Now that your mind is out of the gutter, how many folks have seen this move? Taking the dog's head on the bite sleeve and pushing it into the bite. I don't like it because I feel that it builds issues with the handler. The dog has a fight at both ends of the leash. If you want a deeper bite, dead prey the sleeve or make your arm go limp. When the dog regrips, slip it.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Howard Gaines III said:


> Taking the dog's head on the bite sleeve and pushing it into the bite. I don't like it because I feel that it builds issues with the handler.


Even if the pushing is more like encouragement, with encouraging sounds?


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

That sounds very weird Howard. Never seen that before, usually the decoy is the one who gets the dog to bite deeper, not the handler.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

I have never seen that before either.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

That would seem to me to create an oposition reflex in most dogs. The decoy creates the counter into the sleeve.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

I have seen this done several times. While the dog is on the sleeve, the handler comes from behind and pushes the dog's head into the bite. The though was that it is "setting" the grip. What a line of BS! 

I am not in favor of this practice as I feel it causes issues on the bite. The bite, on any surface, is something the dog does and at their comfort level. If the bite needs to be set deeper, the decoy should dead prey the sleeve or relax the arm to allow the dog to regrip.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Howard Gaines III said:


> I have seen this done several times. While the dog is on the sleeve, the handler comes from behind and pushes the dog's head into the bite. The though was that it is "setting" the grip. What a line of BS!


I have never seen it in person, but there was a video clip (still is, somewhere) posted on this forum in late 2006/early 2007 showing this. I wish I could remember who posted it.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Nobody else remembers this? Just one of my schizo personalities? :lol:

It was commented on, too.... someone posted that he liked to see that....


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## Lyn Chen (Jun 19, 2006)

Somewhere here? http://www.israeldogs.com/


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Lyn Chen said:


> Somewhere here? http://www.israeldogs.com/



Lyn, I DO think that was the poster. I thought it last night but still couldn't find it. But thank you! :grin:


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## Lyn Chen (Jun 19, 2006)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Lyn, I DO think that was the poster. I thought it last night but still couldn't find it. But thank you! :grin:


They do it a lot with their pups, there's videos in the site.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Lyn Chen said:


> They do it a lot with their pups, there's videos in the site.


Oh, thank you..... no one else remembered that video clip. :lol:


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## Frank Phillips (Jan 8, 2008)

IMO pushing the head INTO the sleeve sounds crazy to me. It is the exact opposite of what I would do. As the helper, I pull tight away from the dog to "set the grip", if he is not full, I give a little shake of the sleeve and let it go dead for a second for the dog to regrip.....Then I go back to tension to set the griop again.....Oposition reflex I believe would make the dog push back OUT of the sleeve, plus now the dog has conflict at both ends, the helper AND the handler.....Just my 2 cents....


Frank


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## Gary Garner (Jun 30, 2007)

At our club, the head is sometimes re-positioned...or more accurately , positioned as the bite goes on...

have a look;


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## Frank Phillips (Jan 8, 2008)

Hi Gary

I can understand what you are doing...What I did not understand was when the original statement said it was to "set the grip" on a sleeve or to make the dog go fuller on the sleeve.....To get a correct position on a suit I can understand....


Frank


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## Matthew Grubb (Nov 16, 2007)

Brings up the issue of exactly how much you can do when it comes to improving grip vs. how much is genetic. 
Can you address conflict on the bite with the physical adjustment of the dog? Hmmmm!


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## Frank Phillips (Jan 8, 2008)

I believe that the conflict comes when the handler comes up behind the dog, takes his head and then trys to push it into the grip....a dogs opposition relex makes me think he will try to back out of the grip. But even if he doesn't back out, now the next time he is on the grip he is looking for the handler to come up and grab his head. This is the conflict I am talking about, I want my dog focused on the helper, not worried if I am going to come up and grab him......I am also only taking about on a sleeve for Schutzhund, I do not have the background in other sports to comment on that.....


Frank


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Frank,
Welcome to the hood! My point also. Conflict is a great thing. Now two can screw a dog up better than one! We don't do it with our training group in Delaware. A former member did it with his Mal and I didn't think much of it. Because everyone has their own way of wanting things done, my mouth is closed. Welcome again.


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