# Too much affection



## Brandon Hamraz

My mal puppy is 14 weeks and my training director says she's getting too much affection. What are you thoughts is it good to give affection to build bond or should it be limited. I'm training her in ipo.


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## Bob Scott

I think there is a big difference in giving a dog affection as opposed to spoiling a dog or you giving in to constant solicitation of affection from the dog to the point it's causing training issues.


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## Brandon Hamraz

During the first couple weeks I would say she was getting a lot of attention but it was for socialization . The last couple weeks she's been only having contact with me for feeding two five minute training sessions and potty breaks a day other that that she's in her kennel. Should I up contact or stay the same.


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## Nicole Stark

In what context was his statement made? I mean what was going on at the time he said this or did it come up in a conversation while the puppy wasn't present?


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## Brandon Hamraz

It was during conversations because during training she started out focused on helper and getting attention not rag


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## Bob Scott

Brandon Hamraz said:


> During the first couple weeks I would say she was getting a lot of attention but it was for socialization . The last couple weeks she's been only having contact with me for feeding two five minute training sessions and potty breaks a day other that that she's in her kennel. Should I up contact or stay the same.



I personally like to have more contact then feeding, a couple of 5 min training sessions and potty breaks.


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## Brandon Hamraz

Good to hear I agree but there were many in the club that recumended others wise. They said it would build drive. I feel there's a fine line of building drive and killing the bond. I feel bonds more important that drive is there and can be brought out at later age with training. It seams like there are other in agreement. Or am I misunderstanding yalls post.


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## rick smith

do you feel a bond is built on affection ???
please explain .. that's a strange concept to me
- or maybe we just have different views on what a bond is

isolate the dog to build drive ??? you MUST be kidding //lol//
what club do you train with ?


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## Nicole Stark

Rick that is a common "sentiment" in some (many?) working circles. Does it work? Not that I have seen. Brandon, I speculate this is less about affection and bond than it is about what the club members expect and want to see from a dog (your dog) being developed for sport.

All the things I was told to do with my mastiff to "build" drive to include isolation, were all things I never did with my dutch. In fact, I did a bunch of things people didn't recommend like letting her run with another dog, be free in the yard all day - not kenneled, I worked her while she was changing teeth, and exercised her extensively, etc.. 

That concept of isolation to build drive is somewhat archaic, and a relatively ridiculous notion in my mind. It's similar to working off the idea that a male prisoner kept from the companionship of a female will develop a drive for sex unparalleled by those free to have sex as they desire.

Bullshit.


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## Anthony Arrants

Nicole Stark said:


> Rick that is a common "sentiment" in some (many?) working circles. Does it work? Not that I have seen. Brandon, I speculate this is less about affection and bond than it is about what the club members expect and want to see from a dog (your dog) being developed for sport.
> 
> All the things I was told to do with my mastiff to "build" drive to include isolation, were all things I never did with my dutch. In fact, I did a bunch of things people didn't recommend like letting her run with another dog, be free in the yard all day - not kenneled, I worked her while she was changing teeth, and exercised her extensively, etc..
> 
> That concept of isolation to build drive is somewhat archaic, and a relatively ridiculous notion in my mind. It's similar to working off the idea that a male prisoner kept from the companionship of a female will develop a drive for sex unparalleled by those free to have sex as they desire.
> 
> Bullshit.


This was a good read for a novice like me. We get our dutchie in less than a month and I want to do this right.


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## eric squires

Let puppies be puppies. If the genetics are there it not going to screw them up to be loved on like you would any dog. My working dogs sleep in the house on the bed and are just my buddies when the are not training. That being said there are some milestones that I look for with them as they grow.


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## Brandon Hamraz

On a somewhat other note what are people doing for early bite work I've been using puppy pillow and milk jug with rocks in it on a rope


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## Meg O'Donovan

eric squires said:


> Let puppies be puppies. If the genetics are there it not going to screw them up to be loved on like you would any dog. My working dogs sleep in the house on the bed and are just my buddies when the are not training. That being said there are some milestones that I look for with them as they grow.


Let pup be pup, I agree. This is a 14-week young pup that's recommended for isolation?! Why the hurry? They can be social and still bite later on. Now should be fun time, and loving the games. Are you training with a lot of GSD ppl. or why the worry about drive? Most Mals I've met have it in spades.


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## Brandon Hamraz

She has loads of drive I think what most of them what drive though roof and will do anything for a cracked out dog I was talking to mike lorriane and he seem to side with most people here so I'm think on going that route and just let her be the crazy social puppy she is.


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## rick smith

even tho u didn't answer my simple Q's i won't hold it against you 

But rather than tell us you talked to someone else and now you will take the (free) WDF advice, invite Mike to become a member here and share his knowledge.

we need more people like him contributing to posts and it would help raise the standards of the WDF in general.


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## Bob Scott

Working the dog's drive is an outstanding way to build a bond with the dog if you do it properly. 

I also believe the dog's drive can only be taken to the level the individual dog's genetics allows.

A good Bloodhound has crazy drive/genetics to track but you wont see to many that are super active, energetic dogs like a good Mal, GSD or terrier.


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## Brian McQuain

Ive heard more than a few trainers push isolation. Keep the dog in a crate unless working/training or going to the bathroom. They eat and live in a crate for "greater focus and drive." 

I haven't seen any of these trainers dogs have more drive and focus than mine...which are with me everyday, all day. In fact, most of the dogs Ive seen are quite the opposite. They loose their minds when they do get out. 

Just today we cleared a two story, 50,000ish sq ft medical building with one of mine. Id say his drive and focus isn't lacking.


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## Brandon Hamraz

Thanks for all yall help I knew I shouldn't of been second guessing myself im gonna raise her like I did with my rotti


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## susan tuck

You said that for the last couple of weeks she's been getting very little interaction with you. Have you seen a difference in her at club?

Many times what a trainer means with regards to "isolation" is limiting exercise and affection and play just on the days when you and your pup are going to club. Often a person with a new pup is so excited that they play/work/train a young pup too much on the days when they will be going to club, so that by the time they get to club, the pup is just flat out tired. Kenneling your pup and giving your pup quiet time on training day is not a bad thing at all, won't hurt your bond, won't hurt the pup. It might help your pup focus more on the helper, on club days. It's no different than not feeding a pup or doing a lot of training/playing before going tracking, this is good for some pups, obviously not all, because there are no absolutes in dog training.


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## Brian McQuain

susan tuck said:


> You said that for the last couple of weeks she's been getting very little interaction with you. Have you seen a difference in her at club?
> 
> Many times what a trainer means with regards to "isolation" is limiting exercise and affection and play just on the days when you and your pup are going to club. Often a person with a new pup is so excited that they play/work/train a young pup too much on the days when they will be going to club, so that by the time they get to club, the pup is just flat out tired. Kenneling your pup and giving your pup quiet time on training day is not a bad thing at all, won't hurt your bond, won't hurt the pup. It might help your pup focus more on the helper, on club days. It's no different than not feeding a pup or doing a lot of training/playing before going tracking, this is good for some pups, obviously not all, because there are no absolutes in dog training.


 
Good point


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## Brandon Hamraz

No it wasn't that, I Dont work my dogs a day before so there well rested. They just think a dog should only be out to work and go to potty. This isnt everyone felling just some in the club.


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## Bob Scott

Brandon Hamraz said:


> No it wasn't that, I Dont work my dogs a day before so there well rested. They just think a dog should only be out to work and go to potty. This isnt everyone felling just some in the club.



This goes back to the hunting dog folks that say keeping the dog confined will build it's drive to hunt.

I suppose many still follow this method but I see more hunting dogs that are also family pets and it doesn't seem to hold them back in the field one bit. 

I did earthwork with terriers for a number of years and all my working terriers were house dogs. One of my Border terriers was even a big winning show dog in both AKC and Working Terrier Shows in addition to being hell on wheels in the ground. 

I had the #1 Nationally ranked Kerry Blue in AKC obedience competition in the early 80s. He was a great above ground ratter, groundhog, possum, raccoon catcher and would also find, point (sort of :grin and flush quail.

Pampered maybe a bit but never spoiled.


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## Joby Becker

I don't subscribe to the theory as a whole.

BUT..

I have owned several dogs that I THINK (Appeared to me) benefited from being crated for a period of time before training.

These are my theories as to why it appeared to beneficial for certain dogs.

Some to slow them down for a period, to conserve energy. 
Some to clear their mind, calm them, they obviously were meditating in the crate. 
Some I think it frustrated them..

Some I think may also "Lose Their Minds" as Brian so eloquently put it, which in some cases, is just what the doctor ordered, depending on what you are doing...

All I can say is that I think it can be an effective influencer on some dogs..crating whatever...

I used to do detection and tracking drills at home and around the neighborhood with my last few dogs... and it was really interesting to see and to hear the dog inhaling the scent in the crate, and exploding out of the crate (when let out) to get to work...

I think that their just may be something to the idea of rest/crate/isolation for some periods of time, benefitting some dogs in certain situations...

I also think it wont necessarily "build drive" as some people say, but it just might get the dog in the right state of mind for whatever reason...

as with people who go to work, some dogs just might work better after sleeping or a nap....some dogs can relax more while being isolated or crated...not much else to do....


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## Brian McQuain

And theres the difference. Crating a dog before work v. isolation. 

What I got from the original post/question was isolation, which I see plenty of, where the dog lives in a crate. No interaction with anyone until its time to train or work. Which, as I said, doesnt seem to build any more drive. When I said some loose their minds after coming out of the crate, what I meant was they are so excited to be out, they cant seem to focus on anything, until persistant correction "calms" them down. They are too interested in the world around them. I also have only seen this with dedicated sport dogs who only ever see the training/trial field. 

I think most of the dogs I work with (including mine) stay crated (or confined to the back of the car) until its time to work, but thats only when they are out to work. They also know when they come out of the crate with their harness on, theres no screwing around...its time to work. After that, mine are house dogs and my buddies...out and about interacting with me as much as they, or I, want. Again, no loss in drive or focus.


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## Bob Scott

I agree with Brian's "crated vs isolation".

ALL of my dogs are crate trained but none have ever been crated/kenneled/confined to the point of isolation.

Brain, as to "They know when they come out of their crate with their harness on, there's no screwing around". 

A big ditto!

When my brother had his Kerry Blue I showed it in the breed ring and he showed it in the obedience ring. 

The difference between his attitude changed 360 when his collar went for the show martingale to the training collar or vs vsa. 

He was full of fire in both rings but became a trained soldier in the ob ring. 

Undefeated to his CH in the breed ring and undefeated to his CDX in the OB ring with a High In Trial his first time ever in the ob ring.


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## Gillian Schuler

We crate our dogs at the club before and between exercises.

One, the dog can't connect a poorly done exercise maybe with correction, to the next exercise.

Two, yes, they come out ready to deliiver.

The idea of crating a a hund for hours on end to "whet its appetite" is years and years outdated.


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## Sarah Platts

I've found that keeping my dogs together actually builds drive. Each wants to be the first one out and gets more antsy when they are the one left behind.


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## susan tuck

Brian McQuain said:


> And theres the difference. Crating a dog before work v. isolation.
> 
> What I got from the original post/question was isolation, which I see plenty of, where the dog lives in a crate. No interaction with anyone until its time to train or work. Which, as I said, doesnt seem to build any more drive. When I said some loose their minds after coming out of the crate, what I meant was they are so excited to be out, they cant seem to focus on anything, until persistant correction "calms" them down. They are too interested in the world around them. I also have only seen this with dedicated sport dogs who only ever see the training/trial field.
> 
> I think most of the dogs I work with (including mine) stay crated (or confined to the back of the car) until its time to work, but thats only when they are out to work. They also know when they come out of the crate with their harness on, theres no screwing around...its time to work. After that, mine are house dogs and my buddies...out and about interacting with me as much as they, or I, want. Again, no loss in drive or focus.


I agree, and by and large, this is what works for me, but by the same token I've seen great dogs who have great bonds with their handlers who are kenneled dogs and primary interaction is on the training field. Different strokes, right?


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## Sarah Platts

Bob Scott said:


> ALL of my dogs are crate trained but none have ever been crated/kenneled/confined to the point of isolation.


I'm probably doing this all wrong but I'm not crating the new pup unless I have to. He wails like a banshee in the crate non-stop. He gets all frantic and stirred up but turn him loose and he will lay down by you all nice and quiet. He just wants to be with you. So around the house and such, he gets free rein. When I leave he's still not crated but gets a reduced house space but full run of the backyard. As he gets older then I will start crate training but won't at this stage of the game. Right now it's lots of loving, learning how to get along with the other dogs, and just being a nosy pup.


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## Bob Scott

Sarah Platts said:


> I'm probably doing this all wrong but I'm not crating the new pup unless I have to. He wails like a banshee in the crate non-stop. He gets all frantic and stirred up but turn him loose and he will lay down by you all nice and quiet. He just wants to be with you. So around the house and such, he gets free rein. When I leave he's still not crated but gets a reduced house space but full run of the backyard. As he gets older then I will start crate training but won't at this stage of the game. Right now it's lots of loving, learning how to get along with the other dogs, and just being a nosy pup.



Mine are all crate trained for the purpose of trials, shows, etc but they are rarely in them other then those few reasons. 

Puppies only at night and I'll still get up at least once a night until they are 7-8 months old. From there they either get free run of the house at night or then become outside dogs.


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## David Ruby

I realize this is an old thread, however Rick's comment got me a bit curious.



rick smith said:


> *do you feel a bond is built on affection ???*
> please explain .. that's a strange concept to me
> - or maybe we just have different views on what a bond is


Wouldn't the answer to that be partially yes? I think that hanging out and showing affection to your dog can help build the bond. As can training, working together, generally spending time together, finding out what makes the dog tick and feeding into that, then using praise, food, toys, etc. to reward the dog and build upon the relationship. I think it all matters.

While not specific to working dogs or drive building, I think that the relationship is what the bond is built upon, however affection would seem to factor into the whole reward system of the dog's psyche, if that dime store dog psychologist talk makes any sense. Would I be wrong in thinking that?

-Cheers


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## Gina Mezin

I'm only a novice, but what some in your club are saying seems cruel and backwards. There are surely MANY top French Ring, Schutzhund dogs etc. That have been raised as loving pets on top of being competitors. Why not have it all is what I feel. Nice advice I got from WDF was kennel and/or crate your dog as part of his daily routine so he learns how to relax, but that is where it ends for me. At your pups age, I was working on getting my pup to just chill at my feet at outdoor restaurants, but was spending many hours with him in many situations. Some Mals are late bloomers too. Your club members may be used to seeing Mals from only certain lines. My little Mal is 5 and a half months. He wasn't crazy in bite drive at first, but by giving him just a taste of it at a time and getting excited about it myself, his drive skyrocketed, or maybe he just matured. I say, make him a member of your family and not just a tool in a game you like to play. Have fun


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## Gina Mezin

One add on, my breeder, from Dantero malinois, well respected on this forum, says you'd better socialize the HECK out of a Mal. Of course, this doesn't mean, just let anybody touch him or fool around with him, but they have to be exposed much, much, more to things than many breeds. Just adding that to the equation. I'm sure you will have tons of fun with your buddy.


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