# Temperament - nature vs. nurture



## Anna Kasho (Jan 16, 2008)

This is something I've been thinking about, since reading "how social is your working dog" poll.

How much of your working dog's temperament comes hardwired, and how much would you guess it is altered through training? Do you TRY to change some traits through training, or do you mostly work with what you're given in any individual pup? I've read things like, some people wanting to make their dog less social, or training to "create civil drive", so I'm wondering if it is possible (or even advisable) to create a fundamental change in temperament...


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Anna Kasho said:


> This is something I've been thinking about, since reading "how social is your working dog" poll.
> 
> How much of your working dog's temperament comes hardwired, and how much would you guess it is altered through training? Do you TRY to change some traits through training, or do you mostly work with what you're given in any individual pup? I've read things like, some people wanting to make their dog less social, or training to "create civil drive", so I'm wondering if it is possible (or even advisable) to create a fundamental change in temperament...


No cant change what it is. How ever a good dog trainer can mask or neutralize certain traits. I will use the grip work in schutzhund for a example. A full calm grip is required for full points in all the bite exercises. Not all dogs are naturally full and calm like there supposed to be. So much grip building and work may have to go into training to give the illusion that the dog has the proper griping skills.
The reason full calm grips are required for schutzhund is that it started out and still is a breed test for the German Shepherd. A chewy half assed griping dog probably doesnt have the proper genetics that is optimal for a breeding. 
Many people think that if a dog has allot of V scores and ranked high in some of the big trial's that this is the dog to breed to. This is not alway the case.


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## Al Curbow (Mar 27, 2006)

The full calm grip is a schutzhund thing. I believe it's in the nature of the beast vs nurture. Maybe a little of both!


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

To follow up on Mike's comment, I think a calm grip can be taught in a dog that doesn't have it naturally but it will fall apart faster, under stress, then a dog that has a natural, calm grip.
Nurture can hide nature....to a point.


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## Catalina Valencia (Feb 20, 2008)

My opinion on the subject. 100% of temperament is genetic because to me that is the definition of temperament, those traits that come with the dog in the package, the hardware of the dog. Then there are all those things that the dog develop and learns through its life, socialization, training, experiences, etc. The software of the dog. Both make the dog as a whole.

You can take a weak nerved dog, socialize him and he will be able to live normally in society or to take a sound dog and break him through abuse. The big difference is that the first case needs a little bad experience to start distrust something and a lot of work with every new thing the dogs meet. In the second case the dog can recover from the bad experiences and to become a happy dog if the environment is favorable.

Going back to the Schutzhund example, you can take a sound sensitive dog, socialize him to the gun sound and associate it to pleasant things and the dog will pass the test with flying colours. Then hit a pan with a stick and the dog will jump in the air and coward under the handler. The dog learned to ignore a certain sound, but it will be forever sound sensitive because that is part of the hardware of the dog.


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## Lynsey Fuegner (Apr 11, 2007)

When it comes right down to it I think it's really genetic...I have raised quite a few puppies (mainly for pets and am just really getting into raising a workind dog) and for the most part I have raised them pretty much the same. Strictly on the subject of behavior and temperment, and not focusing on work or workability, each pup has turned out significantly different in their outlook on the world. I think the biggest illustration came just recently as I was preparing to bring Masuer home. I was able to raise and work his half brother (from the same father, different mother) Loki. Loki was a very soft and sensitive dog when I got him at 12 weeks, I exposed him to everything I could but really had to do a lot of confidence building before turning him into a pet and placing him. Mauser, on the other hand, came off the plane and hit the ground running! My overall puppy raising philosphy has stayed the same for the two pups, but Maus is much more confident and needs nowhere near the encouragement and the boost that Loki needed.


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

Catalina Valencia said:


> My opinion on the subject. 100% of temperament is genetic because to me that is the definition of temperament, those traits that come with the dog in the package, the hardware of the dog. Then there are all those things that the dog develop and learns through its life, socialization, training, experiences, etc. The software of the dog. Both make the dog as a whole.


that's what this whole conversation hinges on...the definition of "temperament". 

i don't use temperament in same way as catalina. i believe it's the whole, as you say. to me when i describe temperament, it's the attitude, how it deals with various situations, how social it is, the dog's thresholds and drives. i believe all of those things make up temperament. 

strictly speaking to the OP's question of socialization, can it be trained or worked on? absolutely. the best exposure/training for this comes early in the dogs life. take two dogs with the same exact DNA (are their ever true identical twins born in the canine species?). put one in a family where the dog is locked in a kennel 24/7 and only sees people when it's feeding time. take the other one and put it in a family where they put the dog in obedience classes (exposure to other dogs), takes them on walks, mingling with other people and dogs. is around it's family all the time as well as family guests. which dog do think is going to be more social? toward humans? toward dogs? yes, you are working within genetic limitations, but it can be trained or improved through exposure/life experience...


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

As Bob said, nurture can hide nature, to a point. Ofcourse, nurture can also ruin a dog that is already genetically great.

I would rather own a dog that is 95% there from nature and needs 5% of that nurture/training to make him all he can be, than a dog that is 50/50 and needs alot of training to cover up what the dog is genetically lacking.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Mike Schoonbrood said:


> As Bob said, nurture can hide nature, to a point. Ofcourse, nurture can also ruin a dog that is already genetically great.
> 
> I would rather own a dog that is 95% there from nature and needs 5% of that nurture/training to make him all he can be, than a dog that is 50/50 and needs alot of training to cover up what the dog is genetically lacking.


I agree with Bob and Mike. If it isn't in there from the start, then what do you have to work with? You can't take a 12 ounce bottle and fill it with 16 ounces of liquid, can't be done. If the dog doesn't have the genetics, all the nuturing in the world isn't going to give you a PPD, PD, or sound sport prospect.


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## Trish Campbell (Nov 28, 2006)

Temperament is genetic..training can get you so far and maybe able to mask issues, but under stress like Bob said, that will usually leak out. There are also good dogs who have had bad training and vice versa. A very talented trainer can make a so so dog look good. Like Mike said, can't just look at the scorebook. Watching the dog train, knowing it's history, will tell you much more I think.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Mike Schoonbrood said:


> As Bob said, nurture can hide nature, to a point. Ofcourse, nurture can also ruin a dog that is already genetically great.
> 
> I would rather own a dog that is 95% there from nature and needs 5% of that nurture/training to make him all he can be, than a dog that is 50/50 and needs alot of training to cover up what the dog is genetically lacking.


I agree Let me know if you find that 95% dog I would like to just see one.
Every dog has shortcomings. Assets in certain areas will create shortcomings in others. Balance is as close to perfection as it gets. 
There have been many great dogs. But very few great dogs that have consistently produce great dogs. This is where the measurement has to start.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I would venture to say that all of us have watched a trial where the dog that impressed us the most didn't make it to the podium.
That's looking past the nuturing/training and seeing the dog underneath.


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

Mike Scheiber said:


> I agree Let me know if you find that 95% dog I would like to just see one.
> Every dog has shortcomings. Assets in certain areas will create shortcomings in others. Balance is as close to perfection as it gets.
> There have been many great dogs. But very few great dogs that have consistently produce great dogs. This is where the measurement has to start.


don't forget the other side of the leash...there are more good dogs born, then the ones who make it to the certificate/trial/exam...


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## Trish Campbell (Nov 28, 2006)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> don't forget the other side of the leash...there are more good dogs born, then the ones who make it to the certificate/trial/exam...


Definitely..exactly..how many times have you heard people wanting a dog for top level competition? Do they have what it takes to be a National/WUSV level handler, do they have a National/WUSV helper to help them acheive those goals? Proably not


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> don't forget the other side of the leash...there are more good dogs born, then the ones who make it to the certificate/trial/exam...


Very good point there are many things consider with gauging and assessing greatness. Siblings would be another big consideration when making assessments.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Trish Campbell said:


> Definitely..exactly..how many times have you heard people wanting a dog for top level competition? Do they have what it takes to be a National/WUSV level handler, do they have a National/WUSV helper to help them acheive those goals? Proably not


Heh Trish one of the things we discussed when looking at Jett's breeding was Kway. We new the type of dog Bill likes and how he trains he has been historically demanding and tough on his dogs. So when he starts coming up with scores like he and Kway were it puts up a flag the that this ain't just another sport dog. 
Lots have been said about Bill but if he makes it on the podium one thing for certain there wont be a polished turd sitting next to him.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I only read the first page, but what I read, there is the assumption that temerament as far as a working dog is black and white.

Temperament is basically 50/50 genetics and environment. I have seen way to many puppies ruined that had awesome genetics to ever believe that genetics is the end all be all, and I have seen some pretty weird pedigrees with no working lines, yet that GSD was a proven working police dog.

At some point, you have to stop thinking about all this and just train the ****ing dog.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I only read the first page, but what I read, there is the assumption that temerament as far as a working dog is black and white.
> 
> Temperament is basically 50/50 genetics and environment. I have seen way to many puppies ruined that had awesome genetics to ever believe that genetics is the end all be all, and I have seen some pretty weird pedigrees with no working lines, yet that GSD was a proven working police dog.
> 
> At some point, you have to stop thinking about all this and just train the ****ing dog.


Okay Jeff but before you train the dog, you need to train the owner.[-o< 

Yep, 50%+/- can be viewed as genetics and the rest as environment and training. We have two puppies, 8 months old, from the same breeding. One far and away shines over the other, both males. The one has been handled with the skills of a surgeon, planning each cut and for unique reasons. His bite and drives are VERY strong.

The other one looks good and bites but does not have the drives that the brother has, this is training and environment. And it does show in the training and how it is brought up. Stop thinking and just train...yeah I like that! 

50-50


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