# Muzzle Fighting



## Mike Schoonbrood

Do you work your dog in muzzle?

How long do your muzzle attacks last? Do you let your dog hit a few times or does the dog maul the decoy once he's on the ground?

Would you do muzzle work with a dog used for Schutzhund/IPO?

Do you feel the muzzle really makes a dog feel like they are biting the man for real, or do you think the dog understands that all he is doing is punching the man?

If a dog attacks a decoy in muzzle, do you think this will mean the dog will bite a person for real?

With a muzzle, how do you know the dog would bite and *hold on* rather than just nip n back off over and over?

I've seen dogs who won't bite for real bite a hidden sleeve because they will bite a man with clothing but not bare skin because they don't understand that they are allowed to do that, this problem would be alleviated by some real-world bites, but in this dogs mind, without those bites, he is fixated on some type of protective material on the human, bite suits, sweaters with a hidden sleeve under them etc. How would you solve this problem?


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## Lou Castle

Mike Schoonbrood said:


> Do you work your dog in muzzle?


Yes. 



Mike Schoonbrood said:


> How long do your muzzle attacks last? Do you let your dog hit a few times or does the dog maul the decoy once he's on the ground?


Usually they're fairly short, 5-10 seconds. But sometimes we make them much longer so that the dog doesn't get conditioned that all of his fights are short ones. I wan the dog to stay with the decoy rather than in and out. 



Mike Schoonbrood said:


> Do you feel the muzzle really makes a dog feel like they are biting the man for real, or do you think the dog understands that all he is doing is punching the man?


I can hear the dog's teeth clacking inside the muzzle every time he hits the decoy. I think he thinks he's biting. 



Mike Schoonbrood said:


> If a dog attacks a decoy in muzzle, do you think this will mean the dog will bite a person for real?


Yes, if it's done by first desensitizing the dog to the muzzle. If he regards it as just another piece of training equipment it may not. 



Mike Schoonbrood said:


> With a muzzle, how do you know the dog would bite and *hold on* rather than just nip n back off over and over?


This is trained beforehand with the sleeve and the suit. 



Mike Schoonbrood said:


> I've seen dogs who won't bite for real bite a hidden sleeve because they will bite a man with clothing but not bare skin because they don't understand that they are allowed to do that, this problem would be alleviated by some real-world bites, but in this dogs mind, without those bites, he is fixated on some type of protective material on the human, bite suits, sweaters with a hidden sleeve under them etc. How would you solve this problem?


Ummm, with a muzzle? LOL


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## Andres Martin

Do you work your dog in muzzle? YES. BUT NO BITEWORK YET (18 MONTHS OLD).

How long do your muzzle attacks last? Do you let your dog hit a few times or does the dog maul the decoy once he's on the ground? DEPENDS ON THE DOG, BUT START SHORT AS PER LOU'S POST.

Would you do muzzle work with a dog used for Schutzhund/IPO? WHY NOT. THE MOST THAT CAN HAPPEN IS THE DOG WILL WANT TO GET THE DECOY WHERE IT COUNTS!

Do you feel the muzzle really makes a dog feel like they are biting the man for real, or do you think the dog understands that all he is doing is punching the man? DEPENDS ON HOW YOU CONDITION YOUR DOG. MUZZLE FIGHTING SHOULD BE A "ONCE IN A BLUE MOON" ACTIVITY ANYWAY, SAY ONE MUZZLE FIGHT TO 30 WALKS, OBEDIENCE ROUTINES, CRATE TIME IN MUZZLE.

If a dog attacks a decoy in muzzle, do you think this will mean the dog will bite a person for real? YOU'LL KNOW IF YOU'RE LOOKING CAREFULLY AT THE DOG.

With a muzzle, how do you know the dog would bite and hold on rather than just nip n back off over and over? THE DOG WILL BACK OFF...OR NOT! 

I've seen dogs who won't bite for real bite a hidden sleeve because they will bite a man with clothing but not bare skin because they don't understand that they are allowed to do that, this problem would be alleviated by some real-world bites, but in this dogs mind, without those bites, he is fixated on some type of protective material on the human, bite suits, sweaters with a hidden sleeve under them etc. How would you solve this problem? MUZZLE FIGHT A GUY IN JUST SHORTS. FIND SOME GIRLS TOO, OTHERWISE YOUR DOG MAY JUST GET CONDITIONED TO GUYS...AND THERE ARE SOME MEAN WOMEN OUT THERE! BE CAREFUL!


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## David Frost

Do you work your dog in muzzle? 

Yes.

How long do your muzzle attacks last? Do you let your dog hit a few times or does the dog maul the decoy once he's on the ground?

Usually short periods of up to 20 seconds. I've had the decoy act like he was trying to pin the dog once he was down. 

Would you do muzzle work with a dog used for Schutzhund/IPO? 

NOt enough experience for me to answer.

Do you feel the muzzle really makes a dog feel like they are biting the man for real, or do you think the dog understands that all he is doing is punching the man? 

I think you can get a real opportunity to observe whether or not the dog would bite for real. Based on the intensity the dog engages the decoy, you can make several observations.

If a dog attacks a decoy in muzzle, do you think this will mean the dog will bite a person for real? See previous answer.

With a muzzle, how do you know the dog would bite and hold on rather than just nip n back off over and over? The conclusion is made on how the dog engages the decoy. Observing the dogs behavior as he is attacking.


DFrost


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## Jerry Lyda

Andres, where do I find the girls that will take the muzzle attacks with just shorts on?????? :lol:


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## Connie Sutherland

Jerry Lyda said:


> Andres, where do I find the girls that will take the muzzle attacks with just shorts on?????? :lol:


You may have to get one of the new aprons with
implants.


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## Andres Martin

I don't think it's a matter of where, but rather how much. :lol: :lol:

Connie...a test of your creativity: name the web site that carries those aprons. :lol:


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## Connie Sutherland

Andres Martin said:


> I don't think it's a matter of where, but rather how much. :lol: :lol:
> 
> Connie...a test of your creativity: name the web site that carries those aprons. :lol:


Well, that depends. If you mean a version that a dog
will believe, I'm stumped.

If not, then here: http://www.chocolatefantasies.com/cookshop.htm

Now if you meant one that Jerry would believe, I'm afraid I
don't know him well enough. :lol:


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## Connie Sutherland

Connie Sutherland said:


> Andres Martin said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think it's a matter of where, but rather how much. :lol: :lol:
> 
> Connie...a test of your creativity: name the web site that carries those aprons. :lol:
> 
> 
> 
> Well, that depends. If you mean a version that a dog
> will believe, I'm stumped.
> 
> If not, then here: http://www.chocolatefantasies.com/cookshop.htm
> 
> Now if you meant one that Jerry would believe, I'm afraid I
> don't know him well enough. :lol:
Click to expand...

I'd probably go with the 

   "French Maid Apron - $10.50

   Naughty maid's apron with realistic breasts.  What a 
great surprise for your dinner guests!  Vinyl apron with 
soft feeling beasts."

Note that it does say "beasts" on the ad. So there ya go. Beasts
AND breasts.


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## Gregg Tawney

Okay......Here is a question. What drive do you guys work your dogs in when you are working muzzle?

I have two techniques. One technique works the dog in prey which is the traditional method and another works the dog in social aggression which is less traditional. 

Does anyone do anything differently other than running away or back and forth?


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## Reinier Geel

Gregg, question for you, how do you know which drive the dog is in, and how do you switch between them???? :?:


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## Tim Martens

i would also like to hear from selena. i have been told that the dutch use very little or no muzzle work at all. my dog has only done maybe one or two sessions of muzzle work and he seems to have no problems biting a man...


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## Lou Castle

Tim Martens said:


> my dog has only done maybe one or two sessions of muzzle work and he seems to have no problems biting a man...


Tim did you use any predictors before his first bite?


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## Andres Martin

I have not worked my current dog in muzzle FOR BITING yet, but I also have to say, I have never trained bitework for any of MY dogs using prey (moving around and frustrating bites).

My first social aggression muzzle bites are very short...after a social aggression trigger...and the decoy submits in pain. And then I gradually move up the flag pole even to the decoy alpha rolling the dog, kicking the dog, etc.

At the end however, the dog ALWAYS wins.


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## Gregg Tawney

Reinier Geel said:


> Gregg, question for you, how do you know which drive the dog is in, and how do you switch between them???? :?:


I work the muzzle two different ways. Like most, I start the dog on lead and I work try to work the dog either in fight(defense) and/or prey. When the dog engages in the muzzle I act as if he is killing me. The dog leaves the session with me on the ground and the dog being dragged off the field. 

I have also used it for social aggression. Rank (I am not talking about Tim's socks 8) ) I start out with a dog that is very neutral in the muzzle. I hold his leash and start by sitting next to him and simply invading his space. Over a period of time I slowly begin to try to dominate the dog. When the dog shows aggression and tells me that I have gone too far then I submit to him gradually. If done properly, the dog will be stadning over top of me at the end and as I try to get up he postures over me. If I try to raise above him or dominate him in anyway, he will lay into me which will cause me to submit again. 

I am curious if anyone else has used the muzzle in the fashion?


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## Andres Martin

> Over a period of time I slowly begin to try to dominate the dog. When the dog shows aggression and tells me that I have gone too far then I submit to him gradually. If done properly, the dog will be stadning over top of me at the end and as I try to get up he postures over me. If I try to raise above him or dominate him in anyway, he will lay into me which will cause me to submit again.


I've never done that. Are you initially standing in a neutral way next to the dog? What are your expected results (from a dogs perspective)? How do they translate onto practical scenarios?


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## Selena van Leeuwen

Tim Martens said:


> i would also like to hear from selena. i have been told that the dutch use very little or no muzzle work at all. my dog has only done maybe one or two sessions of muzzle work and he seems to have no problems biting a man...


So far I know, it is done very seldom. Certainly not a regular trainingstechnique. We did it once with Spike, just for fun, 18 mo ago.


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## Gregg Tawney

Initially, I am sitting next to the dog on the ground with the leash in hand. I then slowly move into dominant positions. I try to give him dominant body postures and "T" up on him. In the beginning when the dog growls, I back off. Each time I back off the dog becomes more confident. Eventually the growls become more active aggression as I become more persistant. This is a very gradual thing. And can take several sessions depending on the dog. Again, not for someone just getting into dog training. 

What this does for me is two things. One, the dog learns to win in another drive. He learns to dominate me. The concept is that when another human on the street comes over top of him or bear hugs him in a dominant manner, that he can handle this type of confrontation. The second thing it does for me is that it conditions him to channel into fight a little easier when we use the muzzle on the field or in an area search. He is ready for a fight. In a search he finds the decoy laying down and immediately goes in and anticipates the fight because it is the same picture that he saw when he was kicking the decoys butt on the ground earlier. He goes into bite. The decoy reacts aggressive and a fight ensues. The dog is already confident in his abilities. In his mind he has already dominated people on the ground. I have already shown him gradually that he can win in a ground fight. 

In a nutshell, thats the theory behind it.


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## Andres Martin

Interesting supplementary exercise...thanks.


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## Andres Martin

Hey Gregg,

What´s the handler doing during the process?


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## Tim Martens

Lou Castle said:


> Tim Martens said:
> 
> 
> 
> my dog has only done maybe one or two sessions of muzzle work and he seems to have no problems biting a man...
> 
> 
> 
> Tim did you use any predictors before his first bite?
Click to expand...

just the one muzzle exercize and some civil (stake or actually the cyclone fence method that you like) agitation. but mostly bite suit stuff. my dog has never seen a concealed sleeve...


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## Konnie Hein

For those of you who do muzzle work...
Do you have a process for getting the dog used to the muzzle? Do most dogs readily accept it or do they fight to get it off at first?

Just wondering how this works since most dogs I've seen (mostly in non-working situations) fight to get a muzzle off when its first put on them.


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## Sarah Hall

Most dogs will fuss a bit at the muzzle at first, then when they realize what it's for, many will get worked up the second the muzzle is put on. Muzzles are strange for dogs, think about putting a Hannibal Lector-style thing on and being expected to not think/react to this strange thing. It can be heavy (leather Dondi style) and if not fitted/applied correctly, can actually cause some visual disruption.
Yes, I know you asked the time and I told you how to make a watch, but oh well. 8)


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## Andres Martin

START OFF WITH A GOOD AND WELL-SIZED MUZZLE. DON'T BE CHEAP.

1. Put food (hot dog or cheese pieces) in the muzzle and have your dog eat from in there for a few days without putting the straps on.
2. Spread some peanut butter or cream cheese in the "bottom" of the muzzle and have your dog lick it clean for a few more days. Still no straps.
3. Put the muzzle on completely and put the dog in the crate while the dog is licking.
4. Increase the time in the crate up to ten or fifteen minutes.
5. Start taking your dog for walks in muzzle. ALWAYS put the muzzle on as soon as you take him out of the crate and take the muzzle off and IMMEDIATELY put him in the crate. He'll learn muzzle = something better than the crate.
6. Do light obedience in muzzle. If you use food rewards, feed through the holes in the muzzle.
7. Increase the complexity of the obedience gradually.
8. Take your dog to do stuff he likes in muzzle OFTEN.
9. The objective is for the dog to be COMPLETELY free from distraction BY THE MUZZLE.

Notes of caution: 
1. If you have nuts, be careful. "Hellos" in muzzle can give your nuts considerable pain. :twisted: 
2. Also, at any time AFTER your dog knows the muzzle, he may be a pain in the ass and may want to take it off. If this happens, correct your dog firmly (don't overdo it) and demand attention to your directions.


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## Bob Scott

In terrier racing the dogs are required to wear a muzzle. We do pretty much what Andres has mentioned.
Yes! JRTs can jump high and have a quite powerful "hello" in a muzzle.  :lol:


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## Lou Castle

Tim Martens said:


> my dog has never seen a concealed sleeve...


I'm not a fan of them at all either. I don't think that there's much realism in them, the reason to use them. The decoy has to, at some point, present the sleeve to protect himself. After that the dog knows that there's something going on.


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## Phil Dodson

I use the concealed sleeve a lot on hidden finds. I use it sparingly during aggression training.


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## Lou Castle

Phil Dodson said:


> I use the concealed sleeve a lot on hidden finds.


Phil can you tell us why? What does it do for the training?


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## Phil Dodson

Lou'
For me personally, I just feel comfortable knowing he sees no visible equipment on the find, I am aware of the negitive theories on this but it has never failed my teams to date so I continue it's use. I do a lot of searches in muzzle also and use the suit on occasion to teach him to engage however he locates the person. 
As we discussed in the past although I use the search and bite I only give them 1 or 2 bites to every 5 searches as I want them to bark or scratch if they can not get to the culprit(s). We give relief bites upon escorting the bad guy to the vehicle when not letting him engage during any search problems.
On the street in most of my building finds the bad guy usually gave up the arm and my partners took what was available so I continue using it for that reason also. Due to using muzzle and body suit though they have never hesitated to engage what is available to them upon making contact though. 
I guess some old habits never die?. :roll: Ok let me have it. :wink:


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## Lou Castle

Phil Dodson said:


> For me personally, I just feel comfortable knowing he sees no visible equipment on the find


I prefer to make most of my searches "civil." In this area that means that the decoy isn't wearing any equipment. He's either behind a door, up high or is in some sort of box created by using local materials. Occasionally, when he's being escorted out, I'll have him break and run around a corner where he picks up a previously placed sleeve and give the dog a bite. 

My main problem with hidden sleeves is that they can lead to weak biting dogs. I hurts to take on a hard biting dog in a hidden sleeve and many decoys won't put up a good fight, because it hurts even more. And so they don't fight much. That can lead to problems in the street. 



Phil Dodson said:


> Ok let me have it.


Sorry to disappoint. LOL.


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## Selena van Leeuwen

Lou Castle said:


> My main problem with hidden sleeves is that they can lead to weak biting dogs. I hurts to take on a hard biting dog in a hidden sleeve and many decoys won't put up a good fight, because it hurts even more. And so they don't fight much. That can lead to problems in the street.


I see your point here. Is your decoy one or several of your handlers? 
In my hubbie´s region, the decoys during training are the handlers, so they will know how much it hurts if a dogs bites, that makes them aware what kind of violence using a dog actually is.
On the other hand they are also used to the leather and jute suit, which is kind of different from the kind that is usually used in the US.

You can take a bite better if under the hidden sleeve or pant you use bandages (like the ones on horse legs or neopreen). It will give you big in-and outside bruises but you can handle the bite :wink: 

Another way to train civil bites (tip of hubbie´s):
Don´t use any equipment, a dogs knows very fast that he may bite, he smells it. Take a big newspaper (saturday paper), wind it very thight to the arm or leg. Wind tape around the newspaper so it will hold on the right spot. 
Decoy must not present the arm or leg, but handler must put the dog on his place, by holding him on his collar. Decoy must fight like a suspect will.

This could be painfull, but is a very realistic way to train civil bites. 
Probably best for the decoy to do it just for one dog :wink: 

And yes I know how it feels...had a bite from Spike on hidden (kevlar) pant (without bandages)on the fronside of my underleg (shin?), felt bruised but the blue spots came up a week later :roll:


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## Phil Dodson

I agree Lou which is why I now use them sparingly on chase exercises. It is hard to find many people who will not present to the dog while running away although I have a few nuts who will do same.


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## Selena van Leeuwen

I am suprised and curious that and why so little (police)decoys in the US want to do the civil work the way it should be done. With little protection , not presenting the arm or legg, giving the dog a natural look of a suspect.

Here, in Holland, its part of their work as a policedoghandler. They have no choice then doing it. Bruises and sometimes wounds come with the job.

(And yes it can be tough sometimes......)

Dick van Leeuwen


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## Kristen Cabe

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> I am suprised and curious that and why so little (police)decoys in the US want to do the civil work the way it should be done. With little protection , not presenting the arm or legg, giving the dog a natural look of a suspect.
> 
> Here, in Holland, its part of their work as a policedoghandler. They have no choice then doing it. Bruises and sometimes wounds come with the job.
> 
> (And yes it can be tough sometimes......)
> 
> Dick van Leeuwen


Because over here, everyone is too quick to sue each other over stupid crap. :roll:


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## Mike Schoonbrood

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> I am suprised and curious that and why so little (police)decoys in the US want to do the civil work the way it should be done. With little protection , not presenting the arm or legg, giving the dog a natural look of a suspect.
> 
> Here, in Holland, its part of their work as a policedoghandler. They have no choice then doing it. Bruises and sometimes wounds come with the job.
> 
> (And yes it can be tough sometimes......)
> 
> Dick van Leeuwen



There are so many K9 officers in the country, and there are so few people in the world who are competent dog trainers... put the odds together and you will see why some departments have dogs that are, basically, crap... or good dogs that have crap training. Most officers have absolutely no sport dog background, many don't even have a pet dog background, their K9 is their first dog. Then there's the head of the K9 program, the entire quality of training depends on them being competent and being able to train the right way. There's alot of variables beyond suing eachother that dictates how good a K9 team is. I saw a cop get bitten in the face decoying for another officers dog because he didn't decoy the right way... he didn't sue his department, he accepted that getting bit by dogs is part of the risk you take when you work with dogs and it was his fault for putting his face into a dog that is known to switch arms and re-target. I have heard that the test to become a K9 officer is incredibly tough, the only test tougher is for SWAT (again, just what I'm told)... but nowhere in the officers description of the test he took did he mention anything that would indicate to me that he is capable of handling a dog... being able to handle a dog or train a dog isn't a requirement for K9 so you get alot of people that have no idea what they're doing and are entirely dependant on having a good training director in their department... if the training director sucks, the entire department sucks. The good dogs are owned by the handlers who take initiative to find a good dog, then take initiative to train the dog beyond the minimum to certify a dog. If the initiative isn't there, i.e. the reasons for joining K9 were the wrong reasons, then you have a half-ass K9 unit.

A police dog can be certified at a level far below any sport, so if a dog scrapes by on their certification and has a handler who is satisfied with "just good enough" then that handler will never have a dog who is trained to the level that even many sport handlers want their dogs to be at. Sport dogs I see have beautiful Out's, but the police dogs I've seen have to be told 3 or 4 times "Out!! Out!!!! HEEL! NO HEEL! HEEL!!" :lol: It all depends on how much the handler and the training director expect out of their dogs. My trainer sells dogs to departments all the time, and he gets officers saying "Oh give me the hardest toughest badass dog you got!", then 2 weeks later they come back and return the dog because it was too much dog for them... nothing qualified them to handle a tough dog, they have very limited experience, so they have no idea what's involved in training a hard dog like that.


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## Selena van Leeuwen

Have told in some another thread how it is organised here, totally different...

A new handler is chosen on his application talk for a commission and if he did well on testingdays (2 days of decoying and handling a dog). 
The first months he must watch and learn every training and do (most of) the decoywork. If all this is satisfying for the trainings director. A dog is bought for the handler. This dog who is going to be bought is a certified KNPV dog, who has at least a certificaat lof. In this region average points are about 435 out of 440. So the dog has a very good basis of the programme and is very obidient.

The dog is bought by the region, is gouvernment property and chosen by the training director. Most of the handlers here doesn´t have a sportdog background either.
If the dog is there, both dog and handler are trained for several(2-3) months. After that trainingperiod they must get their certificate "ministerieel certificaat politiesurveillancehond". This certificate is their ticket to work on the streets. Their first 8 wks the new handler and dog are supervised by an very experienced handler, with the TD as back-up. If necesary the TD supervises the new handler on certain ocassions.

The certificate is a national, gouvernemental certificate, which must repeated every 2 yrs.The certificate is judged by 2 judges who are certified by the gouvernement and there is someone representing the gouvernement present during the exam.
Because of the certificate, and repeating of the exam every 2 yrs, the quality/liability on the streets is always guaranteed.

Handler and dog have a trainingday once a week during their whole handlership, under supervision of the trainingdirector. On this trainingday a handler must decoy (civil or suit) during his whole handlership.


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## Tim Martens

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> Because of the certificate, and repeating of the exam every 2 yrs, the quality/liability on the streets is always guaranteed.


i don't know about that. here we must certify every year and with that you have handlers that let their control work slide for months at a time and then just "clean the dog up" just before certifications. if we only had to do it every 2 years it would be much worse...


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## Phil Dodson

I have to do 2 a year. In addition to a national standard, I have to do a local also. In addition my Assistant Chief conducts a monthly audit. He picks a required task from our department standards, I have no idea which task it will be, and my partner and I must perform it correctly also.


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## Selena van Leeuwen

Tim Martens said:


> Selena van Leeuwen said:
> 
> 
> 
> Because of the certificate, and repeating of the exam every 2 yrs, the quality/liability on the streets is always guaranteed.
> 
> 
> 
> i don't know about that. here we must certify every year and with that you have handlers that let their control work slide for months at a time and then just "clean the dog up" just before certifications. if we only had to do it every 2 years it would be much worse...
Click to expand...

here they have to practise every week their control programme (biting and obedience). Next to that pratical work. 
If they haven´t practiced for 2 wks they aren´t allow to work on the streets, they must practice first so the training director can evaluate if the combination is still good enough to work on the streets.

The national, gouvernemental certificate is best comparised with the PH1 and object certificate. Pretty though. 
The dogs all know the programme very well(´cause the learned it with sporthandlers), the handler have to learn to work the dog.


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## Patrick Murray

Getting back to the muzzle discussion...I think Greg has it right. The idea is that the decoy takes a "bite" from the muzzled dog and immediately goes down, "crying" in pain and acting totally submissive and beaten while the dog continues "biting" and building confidence of attaking the equipment-less decoy. Once the dog has done this a handful of times and has done it well then the decoy can fight a bit with the dog. Until then the session should be very short (10-15 seconds) with the decoy offering no resistance whatsoever. 

This is where a lot of so-called decoys get it wrong. They resist the dog, they fight back with the dog. It's ok to fight back, as long as the dog is ready for that. Often times the dog is not ready for that as it is just getting acclimated to the muzzle and is not yet comfortable and the "decoy" is pushing back, etc. Wrong, wrong, wrong. 

My suggestion is that, before working the dog in a muzzle, that YOU pretend to be the dog and do the exercise with the decoy. If the decoy is going to screw it up THAT is where you want it to happen. If the decoy is worth a damn they'll learn how to take a hit, fall down, cry like a little girl and convey to the dog that they are totally beaten. THAT is a damn good decoy! To do otherwise is to be counterproductive to the dog's development and it would be better NOT to do the "training" in the first place.


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## Mike Kitchen

I think as muzzle fighting as a training and not a test. If you take away the dogs natural defense (bite) what is reaction. the dog fights with the muzzle to remove it or he goes to the decoy to hit. The dog fighting with the muzzle doesn't mean he wont bite for real but there is a level of stress coming from the muzzle because the natural defense is taken away and it is not quite clear to the dog. Obviously the dog has a certain level of fight drive initially to do muzzle work. The hits should be quick and the decoy should be skilled enough to bring the dog out. The decoy should take hit and fall and go away. The dog thinks the fight is won and the muzzle is no longer in the way of going at the decoy. All of this is on leash. After time You can let it become a chase and hit with the decoy falling and a quick fight. Quick fights leave more for the dog to want. As the dog progresses and it is certain that He will understand there is still a fight with a muzzle on then you can move to send the dog. Like the dog biting the suit do passive, aggressive. I find that too much muzzle fighting causes frustration and will effect the bites on the suit. sometimes more hectic of a bite depending on the dog. It is a good idea to give a bite at the end to let the dog release the frustration. Muzzle fighting can be very dangerous for an inexperienced decoy and much care must be taken. It is the balance between the decoy , dog handler that makes training clear to the dog.


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## Mike Kitchen

One thing I forgot is that topic of the hidden sleeve. A very contreversial topic but I do see some use in it. I don't see problems with the hidden sleeve because if I have to worry if my dog will bite for real than I need to select and test my dogs better. I already know the potential of my dog before any exercise is started. I don't use sleeves not for the reason they can't be used but the dogs I select don't need to go to a sleeve. They go from a tug to a undercover suit. This is my standards and everyone looks at it differently. There are some situations the hidden sleeve is usefull such as a car jacking like the one in asr. or a car apprehension to pull the guy out or to go over an obsticle to bite the guy. With a dog that is "real" I don't even need the muzzle but I feel that training as close to the real world is better for my dog and the handler. This gives me the chance to expose my dog to as much as I can. Because you don't know the situation the dog may end up in. The end result should be no different with a muzzle, hidden sleeve or a bite suit. The dog fights has great control and will fight under any situation distraction or threat.


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## Tim Martens

i agree with you on the hidden sleeve. to me it's only good for those scenarios where the decoy doesn't have to be so obvious about presenting it. i would never use a hidden sleeve for a long send for example. well, i take that back, i won't say "never", but to me, you take away the advantage of the hidden sleeve (no equipment focus) when the decoy has to be so obvious about the presentation of the arm. badguys don't do that. the dog needs to bite whatever is available...


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## Mike Kitchen

I agree the badguy is not going to hold his arm out for the dog to bite. He may hold it in front to prevent the dog from getting him. Just for conversation, my dog ten years ago and I lived in a rough area. My dog was sent on fifteen people in two months. Every person was bit in the arm or stomach. most in the arm. this was an untrained FEMALE dog at nine months. but crazy to hurt someone including me. The only reason she had bites on the arm because people try to protect themselves. dont misunderstand me I am not a sleeve person at all. I don't like training with the sleeve because I like the dog in the chest or shoulder/bicep area. My point is if your dog is serious enough biting a hidden sleeve is no problem. if ninety nine of the bites are up high the other one percent on the hidden sleeve what are you teaching the dog? nothing bad or good. there is no harm. again there is no use for the hidden sleeve to make the dog real. either he is or isn't. I would rather do bites on a thin suit with an insane (but safe) decoy. And some muzzle work. I will on ocassion do bites on a hidden sleeve in more tight areas. In a building, garbage cans, etc. I feel doing all of these things is good to teach good decoy work. But is good for the dog too again be prepared. I am sorry I ramble but my point is if your dog is good and means it then a bite ocassionally on a hidden sleeve will have no effects on the dogs perception of the badguy. Basically we agree


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## Gregg Tawney

Mike Kitchen said:


> I agree the badguy is not going to hold his arm out for the dog to bite. He may hold it in front to prevent the dog from getting him.
> 
> 
> 
> Just for conversation, my dog ten years ago and I lived in a rough area. My dog was sent on fifteen people in two months. Every person was bit in the arm or stomach. most in the arm. this was an untrained FEMALE dog at nine months. but crazy to hurt someone including me.
> 
> 
> 
> Mike -
> 
> Why would you send an untrained nine month old female on fifteen people?
Click to expand...


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## Andres Martin

> Just for conversation, my dog ten years ago and I lived in a rough area. My dog was sent on fifteen people in two months.


Gregg...It's possibly, "just conversation", therefore hypothetical.  

...evidently, 15 self-defense scenarios where you just happened to have your dog handy; there were no innocent bystanders; the assailants (if that's what they were) never hurt the dog back; there were no lawsuits; no dog poisoning; no enemies created, must be hypothetical. No sarcasm intended.

Or maybe it was preemptive? :lol: 

Kids, don't try this at home... :lol:


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## Tim Martens

Gregg Tawney said:


> Mike Kitchen said:
> 
> 
> 
> I agree the badguy is not going to hold his arm out for the dog to bite. He may hold it in front to prevent the dog from getting him.
> 
> 
> 
> Just for conversation, my dog ten years ago and I lived in a rough area. My dog was sent on fifteen people in two months. Every person was bit in the arm or stomach. most in the arm. this was an untrained FEMALE dog at nine months. but crazy to hurt someone including me.
> 
> 
> 
> Mike -
> 
> Why would you send an untrained nine month old female on fifteen people?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> and all upper body bites. all but one of my apprehensions have been leg bites. the one that wasn't, the guy was crouched down and got bit in the shoulder. interesting to note that we rarely (much to my displeasure) work leg bites. i think that is just where a "good dog" comes into play.
Click to expand...


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## Mike Kitchen

Let me rephrase that the dog wasn't sent but in a situation were there wasn't a choice. The area I lived in my house was broken into three times and I was threatened many times. There were more gunshots at my house then a firing range. My dog was supposed to be a deterrent but drugs and alcohol affected some of these peoples judgement. I was young and have better ways now. But thats life.


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## Phil Dodson

Tim my current partner and previous partners have apprehended on occasion other parts of the body when that was all that was avilable on finds, but the majority of bites have been on the hand or arm. This is true with most of the PSD teams I have placed on the streets over several years.The bad guy seems to want to put his arm up first as the K-9 comes in to make contact unless he is unable to. I use the concealed sleeve for sessions where the subject is located and the dog is able to engage a subject who will throw out an arm unknowingly.? I use the muzzle and the suit also to locate the decoy in positions he will not normally find and engage a bad guy in,sitting, standing or lying motionless where he offers little or no resistance and the arm is not presented for him to take. I personally believe both methods should be utilized.


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