# Guy fights Police K9...



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=irpBEsNknro&feature=player_embedded

I realize that is a big dude with leather on, most likely super high on something, but not sure why the dog just appeared to give up.


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## Rick Cadez Jr. (Dec 1, 2009)

It sounds like the handler recalled the k9. Thought i heard the handler say " come here " or " here " just before the K9 came of the bite.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Rick Cadez Jr. said:


> It sounds like the handler recalled the k9. Thought i heard the handler say " come here " or " here " just before the K9 came of the bite.


ah...I will have to try it with the headphones...


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## Pete Stevens (Dec 16, 2010)

K9's a pain compliance tool. If they don't feel the pain, you get no compliance. One of my bites was a guy wearing a leather jacket. There is a reason why a lot of people who ride motorcycles wear leather. There were no puncture wounds and my saving grace was the my dog was pretty big and held on which pulled the guy down. Throw a little meth into the fun and you may not feel a thing. How do I come to the meth conclusion? Its in San Bernardino County, believe me, meth is involved.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

The handler says "Jackie, come here...come here" at 0:27. Or it sounds like Jackie anyways.


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## Steve Groen (Aug 22, 2010)

Pete Stevens said:


> K9's a pain compliance tool. If they don't feel the pain, you get no compliance. One of my bites was a guy wearing a leather jacket. There is a reason why a lot of people who ride motorcycles wear leather. There were no puncture wounds and my saving grace was the my dog was pretty big and held on which pulled the guy down. Throw a little meth into the fun and you may not feel a thing. How do I come to the meth conclusion? Its in San Bernardino County, believe me, meth is involved.


Pete, admittedly, I know nothing about street work, but it seems to me that sending out a dog against that guy when there were three or four deputies who could have easily detained that meth head is recklessly endangering the dog. If that fellow had a screwdriver available, the dog would have been dead or forced into retirement. And saying, "the dog is going to continue to bite until you get on the ground," or whatever the deputy said, doesn't make sense to me when the dog could have been released and the suspect detained without the huge potential for injury to the dog. I think dogs are sent out far too often when they shouldn't be - it crossed my mind when watching this video that the handler was are enjoy himself a little too much, judging how the dog was used.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Pete Stevens puts it well : "K9's a pain compliance tool"

Its simple enough you fight, **** you theres pain, you stop fighting and comply - pain stops. Police and MWD and CWD are tools there not your favorite pet or family member or your sport buddy, they might mean more too most handlers than tools but in the end they are tools, there meant to take the place of human life if need be in a agression level of threat. ( Ever wonder why for example they will set a dog loose on a building search and wait sometimes for a alert or all clear).


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## Rick Cadez Jr. (Dec 1, 2009)

Steve Groen said:


> Pete, admittedly, I know nothing about street work, but it seems to me that sending out a dog against that guy when there were three or four deputies who could have easily detained that meth head is recklessly endangering the dog. If that fellow had a screwdriver available, the dog would have been dead or forced into retirement. And saying, "the dog is going to continue to bite until you get on the ground," or whatever the deputy said, doesn't make sense to me when the dog could have been released and the suspect detained without the huge potential for injury to the dog. I think dogs are sent out far too often when they shouldn't be - it crossed my mind when watching this video that the handler was are enjoy himself a little too much, judging how the dog was used.


You obviously have never tried to control someone whos under the influence of Meth. As stated earlier the Police dog is a tool that at at times can be used to gain control of a Suspect or assist in apprehending a suspect. In my ( 12 yr ) experiance most Suspects would prefer to fight with a Officer then a Police Dog. And if the Suspect had a screw driver those Officers would have probably reacted differently at the time. Base on the video I say those Officers and that K9 did a outstanding job in taking that suspect into custody with the least amount of force possible.


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

What Rick said. And I'll add....if he had a screwdriver, would you rather the dog be stabbed or the officer? Think about what you're saying.

I had to fight a skinny 15 year old kid on angel dust. I WWF'd him all over the street to no avail. Mace didn't work. Baton didn't work. Another officer showing up didn't work. At least with the dog on him I could have picked the best way to grab and hang onto the sweaty, slimy guy while the dog distracted him and more officers could arrive. Easy to make statements when you don't do it for real.


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## Rick Cadez Jr. (Dec 1, 2009)

Howard, I have not had to personally fight with a guy high on angle dust, but have been told stories by veteran officers who say it gives suspects super human strength. And these are Officers who were allowed to use blackjacks.


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=irpBEsNknro&feature=player_embedded
> 
> I realize that is a big dude with leather on, most likely super high on something, but not sure why the dog just appeared to give up.


This video again???

It's been hashed to death at least twice already!


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

Rick Cadez Jr. said:


> You obviously have never tried to control someone whos under the influence of Meth. As stated earlier the Police dog is a tool that at at times can be used to gain control of a Suspect or assist in apprehending a suspect. In my ( 12 yr ) experiance most Suspects would prefer to fight with a Officer then a Police Dog. And if the Suspect had a screw driver those Officers would have probably reacted differently at the time. Base on the video I say those Officers and that K9 did a outstanding job in taking that suspect into custody with the least amount of force possible.


http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=d82_1179457319

This guy was acting tough even with the taser repeatedly being used, look how quickly he gave up once the dog got him:roll:


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## Rick Cadez Jr. (Dec 1, 2009)

Oluwatobi Odunuga said:


> http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=d82_1179457319
> 
> This guy was acting tough even with the taser repeatedly being used, look how quickly he gave up once the dog got him:roll:


That video is a perfect illustration of why the K9 is a invaluable tool to Law Enforcement. That taser did nothing to that suspect. Actually increased the fight in the suspect. But the K9 took the fight out of that suspect. Great video to show how useful a Police K9 can be to Officers. That K9 also may have saved that suspect's life that night. Because the Officers only had ( 1 ) more tool to use and thats their gun.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Edward Egan said:


> This video again???
> 
> It's been hashed to death at least twice already!


oops my bad..

I watch a lot of the TV show COPS, it is pretty crazy how some people can fight and resist..

I have seen plenty of them where it took 3-4-5 officers to finally wrangle someone into cuffs..some of them women suspects. To assume that a person would be easily handled by 3-4 officers, might be wishful thinking...


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## Steve Groen (Aug 22, 2010)

Rick Cadez Jr. said:


> You obviously have never tried to control someone whos under the influence of Meth. As stated earlier the Police dog is a tool that at at times can be used to gain control of a Suspect or assist in apprehending a suspect. In my ( 12 yr ) experiance most Suspects would prefer to fight with a Officer then a Police Dog. And if the Suspect had a screw driver those Officers would have probably reacted differently at the time. Base on the video I say those Officers and that K9 did a outstanding job in taking that suspect into custody with the least amount of force possible.


I was merely noting the potential harm to the dog while the deputies were standing around watching him inflict pain (apparently), while at the same time keeping for another day and forum the "pain-compliance tool" rationale. 

As a legal issue, I think using a dog to inflict pain to obtain submission is excessive force and ripe for a 1983 suit. (Is there any difference between that and slamming a guy's forehead on the hood of the car to gain compliance?) If four guys can't control a fellow on meth, something's wrong. In this case, using a dog the suspect acquires potentially permanent residuals on his forearm while the deputies wait for him to submit? Puhlease! The Judiciary branch metes out punishment, not law enforcement. 

If this grates on the sensibilities of you law enforcement guys, so be it. I know it's a stressful job, but there are lots of those around, and I'm an old man who wants to speak his peace before he goes. I don't think using dogs to inflict pain and injury until someone submits is appropriate in a civilized society.

Steve Groen


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## Rick Cadez Jr. (Dec 1, 2009)

Steve Groen said:


> I was merely noting the potential harm to the dog while the deputies were standing around watching him inflict pain (apparently), while at the same time keeping for another day and forum the "pain-compliance tool" rationale.
> 
> As a legal issue, I think using a dog to inflict pain to obtain submission is excessive force and ripe for a 1983 suit. (Is there any difference between that and slamming a guy's forehead on the hood of the car to gain compliance?) If four guys can't control a fellow on meth, something's wrong. In this case, using a dog the suspect acquires potentially permanent residuals on his forearm while the deputies wait for him to submit? Puhlease! The Judiciary branch metes out punishment, not law enforcement.
> 
> ...


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Rick Cadez Jr. said:


> The video I watched showed a Police K9 being used to assist the Officers in apprehending a suspect. I gather thats what your calling Law Enforcenment metes out punishment ???[/QUOTE said:
> 
> 
> > Surely you know by now that everyone, that has never had to face that situation, has a better way of doing it. ha ha ha.
> ...


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## Rick Cadez Jr. (Dec 1, 2009)

David Frost said:


> Rick Cadez Jr. said:
> 
> 
> > Surely you know by now that everyone, that has never had to face that situation, has a better way of doing it. ha ha ha.
> ...


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## Garland Whorley (Jun 5, 2008)

very intresting points made...


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

4-5 officers usually end up hurting a guy like this real bad. We're talking about broken bones and all sorts or road rash...not to mention injuries to the officers! So please spare me the "they oughta be able to do it" mentality. Yea, they probably could but at a higher injury rate. Is that what you want?


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## Jackie Lockard (Oct 20, 2009)

Steve Groen said:


> I don't think using dogs to inflict pain and injury until someone submits is appropriate in a civilized society.
> 
> Steve Groen


How are these people - who are not acting appropriately in a civilized society - supposed to be dealt with? Have a little sit down with tea and scones?


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

An honest question here.
What level of force is a K9? Is it the same level as hand, baton/tazer, or gun? I was speaking to Flinks about it and he said in Germany it was the same as hand, but in the US it was the same as gun?


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Christopher Jones said:


> An honest question here.
> What level of force is a K9? Is it the same level as hand, baton/tazer, or gun? I was speaking to Flinks about it and he said in Germany it was the same as hand, but in the US it was the same as gun?



It is NOT the same as a gun. A canine is not considered "deadly force". 

DFrost


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Jackie Lockard said:


> How are these people - who are not acting appropriately in a civilized society - supposed to be dealt with? Have a little sit down with tea and scones?


 The police bring them before a judge and they deal with them, either by imprisioning them, fineing them or even in some cases putting them to death. But all this is done with evidence, innocent before guilty type of thing. Its not the police that say people are guilty nor do they infilct punishemnt.They use the minimal amount of force required to bring the perosn to that judge.


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

David Frost said:


> It is NOT the same as a gun. A canine is not considered "deadly force".
> 
> DFrost


 Thx. So is it the same as hand then? If you have to physically restain them then a dog can also be used?


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Last I checked, the use of a K9 is not in the use of force matrix. What I've been told is that were they to be put in the matrix it would be generally in the area of mace, baton, taser etc. David can answer if the Feds have placed K9s in the matrix.


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Christopher Jones said:


> The police bring them before a judge and they deal with them, either by imprisioning them, fineing them or even in some cases putting them to death. But all this is done with evidence, innocent before guilty type of thing. Its not the police that say people are guilty nor do they infilct punishemnt.They use the minimal amount of force required to bring the perosn to that judge.


 To get them there you have to use force, obviously. This guy was lucky. He could have been bean bagged, tased, then dogged to finally get him to comply. All mid level uses of force. All uses justified if the circumstances are right.


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## Jackie Lockard (Oct 20, 2009)

Christopher Jones said:


> The police bring them before a judge and they deal with them, either by imprisioning them, fineing them or even in some cases putting them to death. But all this is done with evidence, innocent before guilty type of thing. Its not the police that say people are guilty nor do they infilct punishemnt.They use the minimal amount of force required to bring the perosn to that judge.


So you do bait the meth'ed crazy with tea and they'll just happily walk themselves to the station. Interesting.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Howard Knauf said:


> Last I checked, the use of a K9 is not in the use of force matrix. What I've been told is that were they to be put in the matrix it would be generally in the area of mace, baton, taser etc.



The advice I've always heard was not to put the use of the dog in the force continuum. There are several reasons for this, among those are the dog's primary responsibility is one of detection. Our policy prohibits the use of a dog for an apprehension for most misdemeanors. The use of the dog, depending on the offense, could be after failure to comply to verbal commands. 

DFrost


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