# Scent chapter for your review



## Jim Engel (Nov 14, 2007)

http://www.angelplace.net/Book/Ch5.pdf


There is also a fairly long section on police scent applications which I am still tinkering.

Comments, criticisms and especially identification of errors appreciaated.


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Jim Engel said:


> http://www.angelplace.net/Book/Ch5.pdf
> 
> 
> There is also a fairly long section on police scent applications which I am still tinkering.
> ...


Jim, 

Please forgive if this seem overly harsh and I don't know you and you don't know me but....

What I get when reading this is alot of "peat and re-peat". I would have to go back and re-read my Syrotuck but I don't think you drew the right conclusion with regard to the experiments between the footstep wheel and highline wire gantry. You state that the dog had no problem doing the transition between following a person slung up in the air or the footstep trolley as conclusive evidence that the dogs were following crushed vegetation. However, the wire trolly system was to document that dogs were NOT following crushed vegetation but instead were following human scent. 

In the search and rescue section you mention that the average weight of the dog is between 50-90lbs with the comment that smaller breeds have trouble pushing through the vegetation however fail to note that the smaller breeds have a better advantage because they tend to duck under where larger dogs have to push through. And any dog that is not fit will have a problem with fatigue.

There's so much that has me scratching my head that I am wondering where or how you are drawing your info together from. Some people are great when doing hands on but have a problem describing how they do what they do. Some read alot but can't seem to put it into practical application. How much of what you are writing about is due to actual real-life experience and how much is because its being pulled from resource material?

And "Canine" is spelt wrong in your title.

Sarah


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## Meg O'Donovan (Aug 20, 2012)

I enjoyed reading this chapter draft. Your enthusiasm for the topic comes across. Edit to make your writing clear and concise. I applaud those who put their efforts into writing. It is a long process that requires patience. I look forward to reading your book.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

One recommendation is scouring for more recent JOURNAL articles, i.e., pay to get full text not just read the abstract; there are studies on odor detection by dogs and a LOT of reasearch going on in Auburn and something new in Pennsylvania, I believe - there is a lot out there now on how the dogs nose and nostrils works and insight on aging odor etc. Also more recent books. Syrotouk died shortly after his book came out and the basics are still good but a lot of water has gone over the dam since. Most of what I have is PDF files I am trying to organize. Paper documents I plan on scanning etc. A lot of it is copyrighted as well so not something I would share.

My Sryotouk book is with a teammate so I can't confirm but I have even heard some challenges on some of his ideas on the nature of the actual odor - 
I did not read what you wrote in that much detail.

Some of the more recent books from different folks in the nordic countries may provide good resource material. The MT we sometimes train with taught himself Dutch so he could read the KNPV manuals.

On the dispersion of odor from a trailing victim. Most of what I have heard is that the bulk of it DOES fall close to the footfall path. Some drifts. All speculation of course and a demo I saw of that was someone throwing a handful of flour up in the air. Also check out some schlerian photograhy/videos to see the air movement on our bodies - comes off our head like from a fountain.

So why do the trailing dogs pick up odor away from the track? Well the conditions may be better in a cool adjacent shady area than a hot dry track for one. Dispersion is influenced by wind but most of what I have seen is not way off the track unless there is some underlying reason. Bacteria have a narrow temp range to "do their thing"

May want to check into RCMP also does backtrails which is a whole other topic. They train them as a specific discipline.

www.uspcak9.com also has a good article section.

There is also the question of scent discrimination in air scenting dogs. Some good arguments on this topic pro and con.

I really think the best info on this is NOT going to be found in existing books! We actually need a new book on SAR I think but I would like to see an anthology from the trainers some of us have come to respect Honestly there is a lot out there that is not really being covered at all in written format but being handed down from trainer to trainer. 

NC Emergency Management puts on free/low cost training frequently, The NASAR annual meeting is in Myrtle Beach, The Annual cadaver workshops at WCU. Some great stuff being put on by LE in Titusville I think. Police K9 workshops- I know NAPWDA puts on a lot and a lot of good training there. ....etc etc. You could probably audit a lot of these on the cheap and get your interviews with experts. There are some SAR folks here but just a thimbleful.


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Nancy Jocoy said:


> I really think the best info on this is NOT going to be found in existing books! We actually need a new book on SAR I think but I would like to see an anthology from the trainers some of us have come to respect Honestly there is a lot out there that is not really being covered at all in written format but being handed down from trainer to trainer.


Nancy, 

I think this is very, very true. I know that Bill Tolhust, who mentored our team until his death, told us and showed us stuff that never ended up in his books. He challenged us to "try it and see what happens" and pushed us to stop thinking in the box and to take that walk on the wild side now and then. Unfortunately, he left to that great Bloodhound Trail In The Sky 'way to soon. 

Sarah


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Add to that .......... only a HANDFUL of the good trainers are on the internet discussion forums......

I would honestly say some of them are barely functional with email let alone the internet.


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Nancy Jocoy said:


> Add to that .......... only a HANDFUL of the good trainers are on the internet discussion forums......
> 
> I would honestly say some of them are barely functional with email let alone the internet.


And most of the time they would rather be out working with dogs than sitting in front of a computer anyway. ;-)

Also I think there are alot of good trainers who are on the forums but lurk because as soon as they suggest something to someone, that individual becomes highly defensive and shuts down. Or they take the angle that it's their way or the highway. I've learned more from the quiet ones than I ever did from the big name, loud-mouthed ones. 

sarah


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Sarah Platts said:


> And most of the time they would rather be out working with dogs than sitting in front of a computer anyway. ;-)


So true. I am on way too much but I work on a computer for a living. I figure if my coworkers can take smoke breaks......

..but then I am just another handler, no claims on knowledge that would enlighten anyone else other than a rank beginner.


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Nancy Jocoy said:


> So true. I am on way too much but I work on a computer for a living. I figure if my coworkers can take smoke breaks......
> 
> ..but then I am just another handler, no claims on knowledge that would enlighten anyone else other than a rank beginner.


No, I disagree. I think you are one of the 'quiet ones'.

Sarah


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Sarah Platts said:


> Jim,
> I would have to go back and re-read my Syrotuck but I don't think you drew the right conclusion with regard to the experiments between the footstep wheel and highline wire gantry. You state that the dog had no problem doing the transition between following a person slung up in the air or the footstep trolley as conclusive evidence that the dogs were following crushed vegetation. However, the wire trolly system was to document that dogs were NOT following crushed vegetation but instead were following human scent.


I did pull my copy of Syrotuck. I owe you an apology. The incident you relayed is listed in the very back of the book as the Austrian Experiment. Your interspersion of Tracking with Trailing confused me because I know that Syrotuck conducted similar experiments to show that trailing dogs were not following ground disturbance but rather human odor. It was this mixing of the old Austrian Experiment with subsequent experimentation of trailing dogs by Syrotuck using the same platform that lead to this onfusion.

Sarah


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