# Breeder stating that breeding for schutzhund ruining the GSD



## Gina Pasieka (Apr 25, 2010)

I found this on youtube while looking at the video someone else posted regarding Sch in the 1930's. The video is mostly regarding the change in conformation over the last 50 years, which I completely agree with...but the claim that breeding for SchH is ruining the breed is interesting to say the least. If your family can't handle a dog with drive...don't get a dog made to work](*,)....seems pretty damn simple to me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SRU8UdMnssU&feature=related


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## Bart Karmich (Jul 16, 2010)

I don't know, Schutzhund is pretty darn freaky. Not all the dogs in it are weak but someone breeding strictly for points in Schutzhund could produce some pretty "gay" dogs.


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## Thomas Jones (Feb 4, 2011)

I've seen that video but was under the impression they were talking about show lines messing up the breed


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## Gina Pasieka (Apr 25, 2010)

Guess it depends on what one is looking for in a SchH dog. Stable nerves are the most important thing for me in a dog...I guess I take for granted that other people agree.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I think the intense prey drive we see in sport dogs can sometimes be a negative. 
It doesn't mean the dog can or can't do real street work but I don't think it's what makes a correct GSD. 
I'd be afraid to see how many "good" street dogs just might change direction when the bad guy tosses a ball for it.
Training issue, yes, but also over the top prey. 
The Lyda boys showed that at their "gathering" last year!


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: If your family can't handle a dog with drive...don't get a dog made to work....seems pretty damn simple to me.

Spend one week in rescue and you will see what people cast off. Dogs are disposable items like diapers, and razors and what not.


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

There have obviously been changes in the way dogs are trained. Dogs with loads of dive and bad nerves are winning top competitons and they go on to become studs. In the old times we used to help the dogs in obedience, now we help them in protection](*,).
There's no problem with the sport, the fact that a dog is for sport does not mean it should not be tested in defense, with environmental stress and check the general temperament of the dog.


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## Bart Karmich (Jul 16, 2010)

Oluwatobi Odunuga said:


> There have obviously been changes in the way dogs are trained. Dogs with loads of dive and bad nerves are winning top competitons and they go on to become studs. In the old times we used to help the dogs in obedience, now we help them in protection](*,).
> There's no problem with the sport, the fact that a dog is for sport does not mean it should not be tested in defense, with environmental stress and check the general temperament of the dog.


 
I think that's an oversimplification. What I see is nervous dogs being helped with desensitization. I wouldn't say they have bad nerves but yes they do take some work in that area. The main alternative are the dogs with solid nerves and you end up drive building instead. From what I see, the freaky young dogs that are worked with to build confidence and stability end up keeping it for the long run and it just grows and grows. The young dogs that are stable, they can be stimulated into some more drive but they tend to be less alert, less reactive, less responsive overall and not much is going to change that. The bottom line is it looks easier to build confidence that sticks with the dog than it is to build motivation. That's how it looks to me anyway.

Remember you said the dogs with "bad nerves" are also winning competitions. So I'm talking about competition winning stud dogs here, not complete basket cases.


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## milder batmusen (Jun 1, 2009)

I would say that it is the show that has destroyed the bred not the Schh programme

but agree that Schh is not only what you should look for in a working dog, nervs and temp as well.


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## brian w. kimbell (Feb 5, 2011)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: If your family can't handle a dog with drive...don't get a dog made to work....seems pretty damn simple to me.
> 
> Spend one week in rescue and you will see what people cast off. Dogs are disposable items like diapers, and razors and what not.


sorry if i'm a little obtuse, jeff, but are you saying rescue is where cast off dogs end up, or that rescue ppl go through dogs like disposable diapers?


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## brian w. kimbell (Feb 5, 2011)

D'oh! sorry jeff, just realized what you meant...

edit function cutoff has a bit of a hair trigger...


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## Brian Batchelder (Mar 11, 2011)

Bart Karmich said:


> The bottom line is it looks easier to build confidence that sticks with the dog than it is to build motivation. That's how it looks to me anyway.


It looks that way to you because you're ********. 

Motivation in a dog is contingent on a somewhat complicated interface of factors. What one percieves as motivation is malleable to some degree too. Even comparing a given dog to itself the difference can be significant. Imagine the difference between a fatigued and satiated dog compared to a rested and extremely hungry dog. Simple, but significant (relative to itself). That doesn't even address the more complicated interface of "drive" building (more accurate to call it frustration building) and the contexts to which it's applied. And it can be applied broadly with little practical difficulty. A pigs ear won't turn into a silk purse, but it will turn into a _much nicer_ pigs ear. And it will stay that way.

However, anybody who knows anything can tell you that "building confidence" is a house of cards. Once the screws of stress are turned just a little, even in familiar contexts, all that progress collapses. Constructed confidence is a paper tiger.


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## Brian Batchelder (Mar 11, 2011)

Please accept my apology. I thought the word "ignorant" was a bona fide adjective, not an insult. But, in the future, I could change it to the slightly more awkward: "Your degree of knowledge does not suffice to make an accurate statement on this subject."

Is that better?


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## Bart Karmich (Jul 16, 2010)

"ignorant" is accurate. I've referred to my self with that term as an adjective, but you're right that it has been used as an insult. "Ignoramus" is another good one, but people will think you're saying "Ignoranus." (ignorant and an ass)

thanks for the perspective from the other side


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## Brian Batchelder (Mar 11, 2011)

Bart, I like your ideas and I'd like to subscribe to your newsletter.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> I think the intense prey drive we see in sport dogs can sometimes be a negative.
> It doesn't mean the dog can or can't do real street work but I don't think it's what makes a correct GSD.
> I'd be afraid to see how many "good" street dogs just might change direction when the bad guy tosses a ball for it.
> Training issue, yes, but also over the top prey.
> The Lyda boys showed that at their "gathering" last year!


Bob, I've been giving your thread some thought. I first did IPO with a Briard, born 1989 and came into the ball era which was started here in Switerland about three years later. I had never used a ball before and luckily I had a dog that was easily motivated, from the tug to a raised eyebrow in the end.

I actually was horrified to hear on this forum how dogs were outing for a ball.

That's not an out - that's persuasion.

Luckily, there are in Europe still dogs that would not out for a ball.

I would have loved to have attend the Lyda boys "gathering". Maybe one day.


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## Laura Bollschweiler (Apr 25, 2008)

Oluwatobi Odunuga said:


> There have obviously been changes in the way dogs are trained. Dogs with loads of dive and bad nerves are winning top competitons and they go on to become studs. .


How can dogs with bad nerves win top competitions? Even if they have the drive to override their nerves? I saw some dogs at the AWDF fall apart under the stress of the competition. I saw a dog that I wished would have fallen apart. Oh, wait, that was my dog :lol: (control is highly overrated)

I just don't see how a dog with bad nerves can win a big competition...if you think there's bad nerves and the dog handles it, isn't there something there to carry them through?

I will say it is probably easier to train a dog with lesser nerves, but not a freak, than a super stable dog who isn't worried about anything. A dog with a "twitch" has something that can be used to make it compliant...so maybe that's what you're talking about? Just a twitch with lots of drive to override the slight freakiness and then it becomes a stud and possibly only throws the twitch without the drive.

I just realized I talk funny.

Laura


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## Brian Batchelder (Mar 11, 2011)

> I just don't see how a dog with bad nerves can win a big competition


That's because you need to recalibrate what you think confidence is.

I thought there was a bigger picture related to service animals. Animals which may have to truly, unambiguously deal with _*novel situations*_ and not crumble. I don't really see the direct translation from a dog who can deal with exhaustive repititions of the same old crap (I guess that could be called "pressure"...?), to a dog who can deal with the "pressure" of real-world novelty.

No, a basket-case animal can't win a big competition. An anxious animal groomed with exhaustive repititions can.

That's a rather low bar. Let's think a little bigger than that.


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## Laura Bollschweiler (Apr 25, 2008)

I don't think it's the time on the field with the same ole thing that causes dogs to crumble at big competitions...it's the stress of travel, new environment, airplane ride, motel stay, different car, different water, different people, dogs, everything. 

Maybe the well-trained nervy dog comes to see the little blip of time on the field as their safe place where they know what is going to happen and what is expected of them. So yes, I could see with really really good training how a nervy dog could do well. But win? I dunno.

Sorry, I'm thinking out loud trying to open my mind. My very tired mind.

Laura


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## AJ Johnson (May 1, 2010)

Laura Bollschweiler said:


> How can dogs with bad nerves win top competitions? Even if they have the drive to override their nerves? I saw some dogs at the AWDF fall apart under the stress of the competition. I saw a dog that I wished would have fallen apart. Oh, wait, that was my dog :lol: (control is highly overrated)
> 
> I just don't see how a dog with bad nerves can win a big competition...if you think there's bad nerves and the dog handles it, isn't there something there to carry them through?
> 
> ...


I think too often people think that their nerves has anything to do with the nerves of a dog. The dog is not crumbling because its a new field or its a motel etc etc. I agree that some of those are stress factors yes but the dog with good nerve would also not be stressed by such small changes. In addition dogs are all to sensitive to the nerves of the handlers. I have seen some good nerved dogs crumble under the stress of their handler several times. At the end of the day dogs observe and take it all in on a regular basis daily hourly this is why they make good protectors and guardians. They can read suspicion without it presenting itself. With that said these sport dogs are way to handler dependent and routine oriented especially in SCH. Your dog should understand running six blinds having never run more than 2 if taught search. I could ramble for days but my point is dogs nerves shouldnt hit the limit of testing until asked to perform through an obstacle or circumstance. If your dog is freaked out cause he is on grass he has never been on before or slept in his crate at a different location his nerves are weak and can still turn out as a high scoring sport dog. Thats horrible IMO and very unfortunate


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

I am not going to get into the debate, but, do find Brian B and Al's post most refreshing as they do get to the crux of the problem.


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## Laura Bollschweiler (Apr 25, 2008)

AJ Johnson said:


> . If your dog is freaked out cause he is on grass he has never been on before or slept in his crate at a different location his nerves are weak and can still turn out as a high scoring sport dog. Thats horrible IMO and very unfortunate


I don't think that that freaked-out dog can turn out as a high scoring sport dog who wins big competitions, as the other poster said, unless he has had some very, very talented training. I'm trying to see it but it's hard for me to imagine. I agree it's very unfortunate because what if he's the stud de jour and he produces bad nerves and maybe doesn't pass on the drive that overrides the nerve. Or worse.

Just to be clear, my own dog is not the type to freak out about anything. I wish he had a twitch because he's kinda hard for me to control. ](*,)

Laura


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

I dont think Tobi was referring to nerves as it applies to competing in the sport.

I think he was referring to dogs that are top levels sport dogs that are not able to handle the pressure if tested and/or cross trained into police dog type work...or put into other situations outside of the sport.

could be totally wrong here though, has happened before....


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

Joby Becker said:


> I dont think Tobi was referring to nerves as it applies to competing in the sport.
> 
> I think he was referring to dogs that are top levels sport dogs that are not able to handle the pressure if tested and/or cross trained into police dog type work...or put into other situations outside of the sport.
> 
> could be totally wrong here though, has happened before....



Joby STOP READING MY MIND[-X........lol. Yes that's what i meant. I feel dogsport are so important and we wouldn't have all these wonderful police dogs without IPO,ringsports, knpv etc but too many of the '21st century breeders' are satisfied with a dog that can do very well in sport even if there are other issues off the field. I don't think that testing dogs in strange environments( i see some german dogs doing the revier in bushes), testing for true aggression etc are detrimental to any sport dog. Stormfront's brawnson was a S.W.A.T dog and a good sport dog also, i don't think he bit any helper cos he was a street dog. In the ideal world any stud dog for a breed like the GSD or Malinois should be capable of doing police work. 

Laura you are right i kind of exaggerated it a bit. :smile:


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