# Transition to warm weather



## Woody Taylor (Mar 28, 2006)

Anyone here in a climate as drastic as mine? Or experience with transitioning a dog from very cold to very hot? We are having bizarre weather these days...it was 96 or 97 with high humidity today, but only a few weeks ago...well, this is Minnesota. The change is definitely affecting her.

Are there particular guidelines to follow (i.e., keep the intense exercise in morning and late night, offer water frequently) beyond the common sense stuff I would apply to myself? I think I'm doing everything right, I'm just not used to her panting for 20 or 30 minutes after a session...not much panting at all when it's -5 out at 5am. :lol: Not that I'm complaining.

And she's learning to swim, which is a blast, and raises hell with the urban kayakers on Minnehaha Creek. She scared one young kayaker into a tangle of roots and branches today...Annie was just paddling up to say hello, I guess the teeth can get misinterpreted.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

20 to 30 minutes is what I get down here for panting after a 20 minute high speed two ball session. Only a few times have a got a wheezy panting that I thought may have been too far.

I did get my most recent dog (Grim) from someone in Wisconsin in March and DID have to work on transition for him with a lot of undercoat removal and some intentional weight loss (about 5#) - spent about a month getting him really conditoned from winter in Wiscosnin to late spring in SC....and a LOT of time with an undercoat rake, plus clippering his underbelly a bit shorter. 

Rinsing off the underbelly with cool water is a good thing but don't soak the coat if they are on land AND never put the dog in a plastic crate without a LOT of air moving over them. Keeping the air moving really helps cool down. 

I have water available all the time but only offer a few sips after heavy excercise then wait until panting stops to offer any more. Have not had any problems -- not done sportwork with my dogs but Cyra has done a good bit of trailing and I have run mile + long trails in 90 degrees with high humidity -- but this is trailing not tracking and she gets into a rhythm so she is not nose on ground all the time....

Good she is swimming, that is great summer excercise! 


I shoot for morning and evening excercise and leave alone the middle of the day as much as I can. I stop the dogs before they stop.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Ditto with Nancy on keeping only the underbelly wet. this can be critical if the dog will spend a lot of time in the sun. Their coat is actuall an insulator against the sun. If the coat is wet to the skin, it transfers the heat right to the skin. That's especially rough on dark colored dogs.
It was in the mid 90's here today at the Terrier Races and Earth dog Trails at Purina Farms. Some of the earthdogs didn't want to come out, once they discovered how cool it was in there. LOL! The racers had it rough, but we kept plenty of cool water by the track for belly cool downs and short drinks.


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## Woody Taylor (Mar 28, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> Ditto with Nancy on keeping only the underbelly wet. this can be critical if the dog will spend a lot of time in the sun. Their coat is actuall an insulator against the sun. If the coat is wet to the skin, it transfers the heat right to the skin. That's especially rough on dark colored dogs.
> It was in the mid 90's here today at the Terrier Races and Earth dog Trails at Purina Farms. Some of the earthdogs didn't want to come out, once they discovered how cool it was in there. LOL! The racers had it rough, but we kept plenty of cool water by the track for belly cool downs and short drinks.


Man, St. Louis. Why do people live there again? All of the nasty weather of Houston without the ocean? :lol: 

Thanks for these suggestions, I'm open to whatever. Again, it may sound funny, but I'm just not used to labored panting like this. Even when she was breaking deep snow, she'd get tuckered out but none of this tongue-dragging-on-the-floor stuff. Wanted to make sure I wasn't working her too hard.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

The high drive dogs are especially prone to heat problems because of their never give up attitude. don't alow them to eat or drink heavily right before or afte strenious exercise. Just a bit. Let them cool down. Then they can quench their thirst without bloat worries


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Woody Taylor said:


> Anyone here in a climate as drastic as mine? Or experience with transitioning a dog from very cold to very hot? We are having bizarre weather these days...it was 96 or 97 with high humidity today, but only a few weeks ago...well, this is Minnesota. The change is definitely affecting her.......


One of my dogs is bracheocephalic, and those flat-faced dogs are really vulnerable to heat.

We keep a kiddy pool set up all the time at the club, and also at gatherings at houses, etc. Since I read that thing (I think it was OED Bob) posted on LB about not soaking the fur on the back, etc., but just the belly/groin area, we keep the water at a level where when they get in they are all in water just to their bellies. And we watch them carefully, leading them in if they don't do it on their own and seem to be heated.

We have another pool the same height (proportionately) for the big dogs (mainly GSDs)..... the water is deep enough just to wet their bellies. There's some variation, of course, with height, but there's no room for actual allover soaking.

And there are simple little things that can slip people's minds, too: Watch that there is always shade, no matter where the sun is. Don't forget the bowls of water outside as well as inside. After exercise, you can squirt the water into the mouth with a sports bottle and control the amount.

We have a big sun-reflecting canvas awning set up on the field at the club, at the side. It's as good as a big tree. Much better than regular awnings, IMO.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Add fat to their diet. Here is a link I hope. http://b2.boards2go.com/boards/board.cgi?action=read&id=1146249387&user=Frabo


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Interesting article Jeff. Thanks! 
I've always added extra fat in the cold months. Never gave it a thought about doing the same in th heat.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Add fat to their diet. Here is a link I hope. http://b2.boards2go.com/boards/board.cgi?action=read&id=1146249387&user=Frabo


Yes yes yes yes yes yes yes.

Essential fatty acids.........

Dogs need them for all the human reasons PLUS strictly canine reasons.

This is not really the thread for some of the reasons, but yes, metabolic water increase is generated by dietary fat. This IS the thread for that one.

P.S. This means increasing fat *as opposed to commercial foods,* and many people here already feed excellent raw diets with additional EFAs...... so please don't make nutritional adjustments without doing some reading....

....but YES. This is just one of the many reasons for all the discussion about commercial foods, most of which use cheap grains instead of higher-costing ingredients that the dog needs. Grains are generally extremely low in fat; many have no fat at all.

Fat isn't a macronutrient that feeds canine cancer the way starch (sugar) does. Fat can help level the calorie requirements of giant-breed pups who are not well-served by extra protein and especially not by fillers/starches/grains.

This is a big subject, one that comes up here and on other boards almost every time nutrition comes up...... and here's just one more aspect of it.

Good post, Jeff.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote:Fat isn't a macronutrient that feeds canine cancer the way starch (sugar) does.

However, when fats in dog food turn rancid, they become simple sugars. Most of the preservatives in dog food listed on the bag only last about 25-30 days. Take into consideration how long they sit in warehouses before getting to the local petshop, and most of the time your thirty days is up. This is the big reason so many people see a difference with a small, hard to get dog food company. You have a chance of getting the food before the fats go rancid.

I cannot believe I posted to a stupid nutrition post. How bored am I??  :twisted:


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote:Fat isn't a macronutrient that feeds canine cancer the way starch (sugar) does.
> 
> However, when fats in dog food turn rancid, they become simple sugars. Most of the preservatives in dog food listed on the bag only last about 25-30 days. Take into consideration how long they sit in warehouses before getting to the local petshop, and most of the time your thirty days is up. This is the big reason so many people see a difference with a small, hard to get dog food company. You have a chance of getting the food before the fats go rancid.
> 
> I cannot believe I posted to a stupid nutrition post. How bored am I??  :twisted:


If your trying to make us think your mellowing out, we ain't goin for it! :lol: :wink:


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## Woody Taylor (Mar 28, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> Jeff Oehlsen said:
> 
> 
> > Quote:Fat isn't a macronutrient that feeds canine cancer the way starch (sugar) does.
> ...


I'm a little shocked myself. :lol:


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote:Fat isn't a macronutrient that feeds canine cancer the way starch (sugar) does......However, when fats in dog food turn rancid, they become simple sugars. Most of the preservatives in dog food listed on the bag only last about 25-30 days. Take into consideration how long they sit in warehouses before getting to the local petshop, and most of the time your thirty days is up.....I cannot believe I posted to a stupid nutrition post. How bored am I??  :twisted:


Not only does rancid fad becomes reduced in part to simple sugars -- it is also carcinogenic.

In many el cheapo foods, the fat is just reduced greatly (and using grains instead of meat does that very well), to a level below what a dog has evolved eating.

I don't know..... how bored ARE you? :lol: :lol:


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

I must admit the thing about dietary fat helping with hydration was news to me.

I am not discounting it - just trying to understand it as my understanding was that the breakdown of fat consumed more water than it produced. Is there more?

Any way I remember having this discussion in college years ago about the camel and found a related article..that does not support the argument about fat. NOTE Camels have different coping mechanisms including a wide variation in body tempature and incredible water conservation by other parts of the body.

http://camell.atlas.co.uk/cinfana.html

And another interesting article.

http://www.fao.org/Wairdocs/ILRI/x5525E/x5525e07.htm

Still cogitating on it - horses and dogs alleged to benefit - both cool very differently (sweating vs panting)....definitely would like to hear more on this...concerning the stamina and energy source of fats vs. carbs - that makes absolute sense .........


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Nancy Jocoy said:


> ........Still cogitating on it - horses and dogs alleged to benefit - both cool very differently (sweating vs panting)....definitely would like to hear more on this...concerning the stamina and energy source of fats vs. carbs - that makes absolute sense .........


http://www.canineworkshop.com/nutrition/

http://www.doglogic.com/b2bfat.htm

http://b-naturals.com/May2003.php

http://www.sportsvet.com/Art3.html


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Also, a quote from #4 above:

....Burning fat is metabolically cooler than burning protein. Minimizing the increase in body temperature would be beneficial to dogs working in endurance events. This is especially true for dogs working in warmer environments. END


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Boy I hate pushing this one too far.

It really is interesting...particularly the Purina quotes referencin teh value of a 40% protein, 50% fat and 10% carb/other diet for performance dogs....

I know kibble was developed with a lot of carbs in part because it was required for the extrusion process .(and grains are cheap)....... and some better foods are baked - but what IS out there that meets the not too much protien yet high fat criteria that is affordable and not BARF. 

I have fed BARF in the past and with everything else it is just not a workable option right now. One dog is allergic to chicken, the others are going all over the place with for SAR stuff and packing coolers gets to be old, not to mention the time investment etc. ....... 

Not making a switch right now for my two working but it is intriguing.....


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Nancy Jocoy said:


> ...... what IS out there that meets the not too much protien yet high fat criteria that is affordable and not BARF. ........


THK has two no-grain formulae. When I use it (when I'm traveling or just have an empty freezer), I add RMBs and salmon oil.

In fact, I always add oil supplements for Omega 3 EFAs (plus the Vitamin E used by the canine system to process them).

I use plant sources for short-chain Omega 3 EFAs - flax, canola, etc. (unless there is a flax allergy, it's an excellent sourse) and marine sources for the extremely beneficial (IMO) long-chain Omega 3 EFAs, plus mixed tocopherols for the Vitamin E.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote:One dog is allergic to chicken,

GOOD GOD.  

The camel theory is killing me. I nearly peed my pants laughing. :lol: No offense, but how does a camel have anything to do with a dog? Why would that cross your mind? 

I worked in a research facility that fed dogs different diets and then at different ages, did the whole, lets chop them up and see what improvements we made thing.

It was interesting to see what occured from these studys. The biggest thing we found about feeding raw was that the fats were not cooked and thus made the dog look and act better (more energy) You could basically feed kibble and add raw fat and get the same results. ( we did!) The other thing is that the heat needed to make the food crunchy enough to clean the teeth destroyed a lot of the protien. Also, they need some of that grain I hear people go on, and on, and on, and on about. Just not all the time. Not just filler kids! That nasty beet pulp that everyone likes to go on, and on, about is a breath freshener as well as having things they need to keep the digestive tract moving.

I found that the best dogs do really well on shit food. I am always doing something with them, so I don't have a lot of the guilt I found associated with the high end foods and raw diets. Hell the raw diet is like a religion to so many people. If only they knew...........     

I see a lot of people feed their dogs old roy here at the kennel. I see a lot of REALLY OLD dogs fed this food. They look great! Then I think back to the old days when I was always tryin to get the better deal.

I feed black gold dog food. If I get it fresh, which I do often, man the dogs get crazy. 20 bucks a bag.(50lbs) If it is a little old, I am good, mostly 'cause of the craziness of the previous bag(s)


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote:One dog is allergic to chicken,
> 
> GOOD GOD.
> 
> The camel theory is killing me. I nearly peed my pants laughing. :lol: No offense, but how does a camel have anything to do with a dog? Why would that cross your mind?


In the days when I was taught biochemistry, the understood metabolic pathways for the breakdown of fats, carbs, and protiens were believed to go through the same chemical reactions for all animals using oxygen for respiration. I don't think that has really changed.

That is, it takes more water to break down fat than is obtained from it. IT really does. The argument that the camel gets it water from the fat was debunked back then - I can't find that has been changed. THe camel has a unique physiology in that it recovers most of its waste water by really concentrating its urine, having a wide body temperature range, and having a low stool volume while not eating.....so that is why I was puzzled and would like to understand what is going on. 

I do understand that there is less heat produced burning the fat and less waste water so there are efficiencies to gained there that will help during times of heat stress. The low pro high fat would make sense during hot water - I just don't think there is a net gain of water from the fat, rather less of a loss.

It seems to me that while a high pro high fat diet may work for endurance in cold that the lower protein higher fat could serve real value in the heat for heat tolerance. Dogs can't concentrate urine like a camel but it makes sense that not burining protein or carbs for fuel would result in water conservation and lower heat production. 

Also, clearly there are some tweaks in the metabolic pathways.. Humans NEED carbs to efficiently burn fat (as opposed to inefficiently as in Atkins) wheras dogs apparently don't .......

I am really not crazy - my undergrad degree, albiet from a LONG time ago, was biochemistry with an emphasis on lipid metabolism. That does not mean I have kept up with it. We cut out trans fats from our diet as much as possible back in 1977 as my professor explained their behavior in cell membranes and the lack of a human metabolic pathway to digest the trans bond !


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## Jose Alberto Reanto (Apr 6, 2006)

Woody Taylor said:


> Anyone here in a climate as drastic as mine? Or experience with transitioning a dog from very cold to very hot? We are having bizarre weather these days...it was 96 or 97 with high humidity today, but only a few weeks ago...well, this is Minnesota. The change is definitely affecting her.
> 
> Are there particular guidelines to follow (i.e., keep the intense exercise in morning and late night, offer water frequently) beyond the common sense stuff I would apply to myself? I think I'm doing everything right, I'm just not used to her panting for 20 or 30 minutes after a session...not much panting at all when it's -5 out at 5am. :lol: Not that I'm complaining.
> 
> And she's learning to swim, which is a blast, and raises hell with the urban kayakers on Minnehaha Creek. She scared one young kayaker into a tangle of roots and branches today...Annie was just paddling up to say hello, I guess the teeth can get misinterpreted.



Hello Woody:

I live in a tropical country, enjoying lots of sunshine mostly all year round.
Imported dogs blow their coats at the first month upon arrival, leaving only innercoats for the rest of their stay. They get acclimatized after 3-4 months. Surprisingly, local-born pups do have normal coats, some even lush. 

We work dogs and pups the whole day during weekends, part of it doing long hikes on mountainous mostly rocky terrains. On summer months, the heat can be punishing, and I wear a good tan the entire summer. The pups/dogs get to drink when and where they see water. If our hike ends up in a body of water, they do get a swim. Otherwise they get a good spray from a water hose only after the hike. I don't see anything affecting them badly, nor do I need to go thru special diets. They just eat raw, that's it. Part of the day, they may go into bitework in those terrains and/or do mantracking, whatever a new place can be most suitable for. You see, we don't own a training field, so we go to different places and the work we agree to do (depends on the place) becomes the training itself, under whatever working conditions we get into.

After a long while of doing these starting with pups thru adults, I have yet to see a pup faint. My guess is for as long as they are in motion, they get cooled off. Bad is when kept inside vehicles on hot summer days.

Just my observation...


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## Woody Taylor (Mar 28, 2006)

Nancy Jocoy said:


> I am really not crazy - my undergrad degree, albiet from a LONG time ago, was biochemistry with an emphasis on lipid metabolism.


Nancy 1, Camel haters 0. Nice post Nancy! 8) You just totally outed yourself as a chem geek. ;-)



> Imported dogs blow their coats at the first month upon arrival, leaving only innercoats for the rest of their stay. They get acclimatized after 3-4 months. Surprisingly, local-born pups do have normal coats, some even lush.


That is really interesting, Al.

What kinds of physical signs do you look for with your pups to ensure you're not over-working them? You work in different environments constantly...that's different from my situation, where I can play two-ball with Annie and notice her sprints starting to slow down, etc. and back it off a bit. What do you look for?


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Woody, yes I am a displaced chemist doing non chemist work right now.
I would love to be sitting back at a GC-MS and be analyzing human and cadaver scent (I used to to environmental waste water testing).......ah well....can't afford to be a bench chemist any more / not and have dogs  Maybe when I retire I can wheedle my way into part time at a forensics lab.....

Jose - but your basic raw diet probably meets a lot of the stated criteria beneficial for heat tolerance (high fat / low carb....)

Jeff - interesting study - adding fat to kibble -- but how much net protein is needed for good function? The Purina study stated 30-40% but it is hard to break down what is needed for endurance vs. what is needed for heat tolerance. If you add fat to kibble the protein % drops and from what Connie is saying better not too much protein due to heat produced in burning it and water needed to excrete excess nitrogen.


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## Jose Alberto Reanto (Apr 6, 2006)

Woody Taylor said:


> That is really interesting, Al.
> 
> What kinds of physical signs do you look for with your pups to ensure you're not over-working them? You work in different environments constantly...that's different from my situation, where I can play two-ball with Annie and notice her sprints starting to slow down, etc. and back it off a bit. What do you look for?


Obedience is always a part of whatever work we do, especially working on terrain. Dogs/pups are downstayed while their handlers negotiate steep terrains then follow when commanded, or the dog/pup may go first in case of an ascent, then downstayed waiting for their handlers. Can't risk a handler being tripped by his dog, that would be very dangerous. Hence you won't see a dog/pup do much sprinting. They slow down too. 

If a pup slows down drastically wanting to rest, then he's lifted up the handler's shoulder and work resumes, though seldom do we see this. Normally, you'd see them more "interested" in the work than their handlers. :lol: :lol: 

Best regards...


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> .......Also, they need some of that grain I hear people go on, and on, and on, and on about. Just not all the time. Not just filler kids! .....


Many b.a.r.f. people (including moi) believe that dogs do best on a diet that includes close replication of the partially-digested contents of the prey's intestines/stomach.

No, I don't believe that dogs or wolves raided the wheat field and baked bread; I do believe that they (scavengers, remember!) evolved eating fallen produce, stomach contents, etc., except in times of extreme plenty.

JMO.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

First thing a lot of these wild dogs eat is the stomach. Busted out the fox right after a visit to our chicken coop. He ate the stomach and the liver and the heart.

For what ever reason, at the time I expected the legs to be missing. Must have been the Colonels fault.


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## Dan Reiter (May 12, 2006)

*They eat the stomach contents first ??*

I have always wondered who came up with this (always eat stomach contents first) I have never seen this on most game (birds & mice yes)
but not on larger game. I only see stomach contents being ate late in winter. I base this on both observing and hunting coyote, fox, & dear. I also use my GSD,s for tracking wounded bow & arrow dear for over 20 years and if we dont finish track until AM coyotes will be their first and gaurentee you the hind qaurters is where all effort is put. (*I assume this **is because most the meat (protein) and tallow (fat) is located*.) I see the same thing in Canada with wolves they commonly check for road kill in evenings & night and if you check it out guts will be intact but hind end all chewed up. During are gun hunt the only thing I see being removed out of gut piles is the big organs never stomach contents they will lay around for weeks unless the grows eat it. Shot a nice turkey last year left out on porch while we shot a little pool and had a beer ( made the mistake of letting dog out the back door ) anyway I now had turkey feathers scattered in yard with my "Milo" snacking on the hind qauters as well. So I am going with they leave the stomach contents unless times are tough or their are youngsters involved. Any way "food" for thought.


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## Sarah Hall (Apr 12, 2006)

With my research, it is true that many large predators go for the hindquarters first. From wolves to lions, the dominant animals seek the best part, which happends to be the hindquarters. True, the do eat the stomach, and the contents which gives them the variety of grasses and other nutrients they need, but that is usually later on when they go back to snack on the kill.
I do agree that dogs need some PLANTS in their diet, but I prefer natural grasses, herbs, and seeds instead of commercial grains. Also, however, the grain levels in commercial dog foods are much higher than the animal needs, and would recieve in the wild. Remember, wild dogs eat POUNDS of meat at a time, and that stomach matter is only a tiny amount of the nutrients they recieve.


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## Woody Taylor (Mar 28, 2006)

Sarah Hall said:


> With my research, it is true that many large predators go for the hindquarters first. From wolves to lions, the dominant animals seek the best part, which happends to be the hindquarters. True, the do eat the stomach, and the contents which gives them the variety of grasses and other nutrients they need, but that is usually later on when they go back to snack on the kill.
> I do agree that dogs need some PLANTS in their diet, but I prefer natural grasses, herbs, and seeds instead of commercial grains. Also, however, the grain levels in commercial dog foods are much higher than the animal needs, and would recieve in the wild. Remember, wild dogs eat POUNDS of meat at a time, and that stomach matter is only a tiny amount of the nutrients they recieve.


What about all the plants dogs chew on? Dogs always seem to mouth/eat roughage...not just grass...my dog in particular loves chewing at leaves that grow on vegetation by our creek.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Woody Taylor said:


> Sarah Hall said:
> 
> 
> > With my research, it is true that many large predators go for the hindquarters first. From wolves to lions, the dominant animals seek the best part, which happends to be the hindquarters. True, the do eat the stomach, and the contents which gives them the variety of grasses and other nutrients they need, but that is usually later on when they go back to snack on the kill.
> ...


Yep, I agree. But again, as Sarah says, it's a tiny amount compared to the flesh and bone they consume. I too feed what I believe approximates the type and the amount of vegetation I believe would be consumed in the wild......... which is not much.


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## Jose Alberto Reanto (Apr 6, 2006)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Yep, I agree. But again, as Sarah says, it's a tiny amount compared to the flesh and bone they consume. I too feed what I believe approximates the type and the amount of vegetation I believe would be consumed in the wild......... which is not much.


Connie, I learned that dogs don't have those enzymes that can digest vegetables, that it needs to be liquefied... How true is this?


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jose Alberto Reanto said:


> Connie Sutherland said:
> 
> 
> > Yep, I agree. But again, as Sarah says, it's a tiny amount compared to the flesh and bone they consume. I too feed what I believe approximates the type and the amount of vegetation I believe would be consumed in the wild......... which is not much.
> ...


Dogs do not have the salivary enzyme called amylase that would allow them to break down the tough outer cell walls of most produce (think broccoli). When they eat the contents of prey stomachs, they are eating partially-digested produce. Or if we crush/process/blend (and I believe cook) the produce, this simulates -- to some extent -- the processing that would be done in the prey animal's system.

But I subscribe to Sarah's preference for the greens they CAN digest for most of the produce I feed...... young shoots/and leafy greens. And I often steam even these. 

My goal is to render the produce as close as I can get to partially-digested OR to what dogs/wolvces actually do eat on their own (the occasional greens and fallen fruit).

I feed the occasional ripe low-sugar fruits (like berries) because again, I believe they have evolved eating ripe fallen fruit in small amounts.

As far as grain-heavy foods go, I have serious misgivings. I subscribe to vet-college publications, and have read studies that indicate to me that the stress on the pancreas (etc.) from attempting to produce an abnormal amount of starch-processing enzymes might lead to organ derangement. 

I believe that grain-heavy diets (Science Diet and the other pricier brands in the vet waiting room, with grains in first and second ingredient position) may be a factor in canine pancreatitis and pancreatic cancer.

I'm NOT referring to occasional grains like the amount in a liver treat or a Charlee Bear treat; I'm talking about daily feeding of mainly grains at every meal for life..... which is what too many dogs receive (imo).

This is all JMO. I'm not a medical professional.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Interesting - heat related - experience yesterday during a search.

I had upped my dogs' fat intake by adding 1/4 cup monounsaturated vegetable oil to their kibble for about a month - ok, yes I am feeding Purina ONE Sensitive Systems but they are doing quite well on it and it is one of the FEW kibbles without flax! It is 26% protein - They are maintaining weight well and coat is great. I know....Purina...but it works for us

http://www.purinaone.com/products_dog_ss.asp

Anyway - we were on the boat, over 90F, bright SC Sun from 1030am-12pm and Cyra, who is about as close to a bicolor as you can get and still be a blanket black with a black undercoat, was able to work without overheating. Her coat was very hot to touch. She was panting but not showing signs of excessive panting or stress. I think one thing that did help was we had a cooler with ice in the boat and she drank plenty of ice water. Back in the car it got to 100F even with the fan running - still no signs of stress. ... actually when it was down to 96, she was not even panting.

Got home after being in the heat from 9am-4pm and I crashed. She wanted to play.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Nancy Jocoy said:


> Interesting - heat related - experience yesterday during a search.
> 
> I had upped my dogs' fat intake by adding 1/4 cup monounsaturated vegetable oil to their kibble for about a month - ok, yes I am feeding Purina ONE Sensitive Systems but they are doing quite well on it and it is one of the FEW kibbles without flax! ......


Nancy, I will try not to derail this thread about fat.

I'm curious about the flax comment.

I don't feed flax, but it's only because I have a couple of dogs with a bunch of allergies, and some dogs are allergic to flax.

Other than that, I would feed it (or flax oil) because it's such a rich source of Omega 3 EFAs.

Short-chain Omega 3s are from plant sources, and flax is a very abundant source. (Long-chain Omega 3s, which I think of as even more beneficial, come from ocean products; I like to supply both types.)

Are your dogs allergic to flax, or is there something else about it that makes you want to avoid it?


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## Woody Taylor (Mar 28, 2006)

Nancy Jocoy said:


> Interesting - heat related - experience yesterday during a search.
> 
> I had upped my dogs' fat intake by adding 1/4 cup monounsaturated vegetable oil to their kibble for about a month ...
> Got home after being in the heat from 9am-4pm and I crashed. She wanted to play.


That is an interesting story. Just curious....1/4 cup of oil has around 400-500 calories in it, right? Did you back off calories or up activity to compensate? Exercise in warm weather should burn more calories...I know this is true in humans, I assumed the same in most mammals (as the body tries to regulate internal temperature, etc.)...but that's a substantial uptick in overall energy consumption.

Glad it's working out for you!


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Connie-anyone, other then weight problems, are there any bad effects of to much fat, and how much is to much?
Heat is the only thing that has ever stressed Thunder. He hates it!


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> Connie-anyone, other then weight problems, are there any bad effects of to much fat, and how much is to much?
> Heat is the only thing that has ever stressed Thunder. He hates it!


Commercial dog food often has restaurant grease as a big part of the fat content. This isn't the fat animals need. They need raw fat.

Since dogs/wolves will eat 30% or more of their diet in the form of fat, and since they appear to need fat for energy in much the same way that humans need carbs (JMO from reading various canine nutrition books and web sites), I think that weight management might be the only consideration when we supply *raw* fat (and oil) to dogs.

Sideline: People who are having trouble getting sufficient weight on their dogs because of an illness, say, and who are concerned about overdoing protein, calcium, etc. -- I'd suggest fat and oil, which, as Woody points out, are higher in calories than any other macronutrient (9 calories per gram as opposed to 4 or 5 for protein and carbs).

Adding oil and fat usually has to be sloooow because of the intestinal upset that can happen from a sudden increase.

All JMO!


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

When I started adding the fish oil for the Omega 3, I also added the Vitamin E as per your comments. Would more E be necessary if the fat content is upped?


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> When I started adding the fish oil for the Omega 3, I also added the Vitamin E as per your comments. Would more E be necessary if the fat content is upped?


I don't know. I know they use E to process oil, but I don't know about processing animal fat.

In the wild, dogs/wolves get a lot of E from stuff we don't generally feed (eyeballs, brains, leaves, etc.).

I'll find out.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

TIA! :wink:


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

RE-flax one of my dogs is allergic and they get other sources of omega 3 that are fish based. 

I did up it slowly and they are maintaining weight - I always adjust based on how they look so day to day there is some variation in overall amount of food. But they are both working reasonably hard this summer. Before I added the fat they were having some trouble maintaining weight without the stools getting soft when I added more food (they are already over the recommended amount). So I gather they are just burning that many calories.

Both dogs are nicely lean - you cant see the ribs, but they both have a depression between the hips and the ribs - Cyra is 55#, Grim is 70#.

Won't be around this weekend (training tonight, all day Saturday and half day Sunday) but I had before the thread felt they needed some more fat as coat was drier than I liked. Friend went with 30% protein for her working dog and it was too *rich* for her. 

The fat in the food is 16% and I think for working up to around 25% is considered ok. I am giong to have to measure my little cup and see if it really is 1/4 cup or different - it is the scoop you get with protein powder- one of those - I was *guessing* 1/4 cup from the looks of it.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Nancy Jocoy said:


> RE-flax one of my dogs is allergic and they get other sources of omega 3 that are fish based.
> 
> I did up it slowly and they are maintaining weight - I always adjust based on how they look so day to day there is some variation in overall amount of food. But they are both working reasonably hard this summer. Before I added the fat they were having some trouble maintaining weight without the stools getting soft when I added more food (they are already over the recommended amount). So I gather they are just burning that many calories.
> 
> ...


Everything I have read agrees with you that 25% fat is *well* within the evolutionary normal range, and that 30% and up is a likely ratio for a hard-working wild animal.

Canola oil is another good source of Omega 3s for those who don't want to give flax.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> When I started adding the fish oil for the Omega 3, I also added the Vitamin E as per your comments. Would more E be necessary if the fat content is upped?


Whoo! There was WAY more stuff out there about Vitamin E and dogs than I expected!  

So .... I guess we've covered the basics, so this is a quicky background before the fat-plus-E stuff.

"Rust" from oxidation appears to be the basis of virtually all systemic disease, including aging, vascular heart disease, OA, cancer, etc. Antioxidants like selenium and vitamins E, A, and C help prevent this by stabilizing free radicals (which is interesting but long). 

OK -- Vitamin E. Tocopherals are plentiful in many polyunsaturated oils (which without it would be particularly conducive to the formation of free radicals). 

It's also highly concentrated in the fat of the animals the dog would eat.

BTW, in commercial foods, the fat is often rancid leftover restaurant frying fat, sprayed onto the food. Extremely bad. (There are "natural" foods with real animal fat preserved with tocopherols, too -- better.)

Vitamin E deficiencies in dogs (and cats) are common and well documented. There has not been a case of overdose, even at very high lab levels, even though it's an oil-soluble vitamin and the other oil-soluble vitamins can be overdosed pretty easily.

So what I took from all these papers was this:

Dogs need Vitamin E to process and protect the oils that provide the most Omega 3 EFAs (like salmon oil for long-chain Omega 3s and flax and canola, etc., for short-chain). They would get ample Vitamin E in good wild conditions from prey liver and fat, eyeballs, and brains, along with some leafy green material.

Bob's question: You probably do not need to add Vitamin E when increasing *raw* saturated fat (animal fat). But stick to the Vitamin E supplements to go with the Omega 3 oil supplements.

I asked my vet on the phone what she thought of this conclusion and her answer was (not exactly in this word) "Huh?"

So this is absolutely opinion only. I did read authoritative stuff to form it, though.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Thanks once again Connie! Excellent as usual!


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