# Anyone see this postman attack?



## Ted White (May 2, 2006)

http://www.theindychannel.com/news/13954177/detail.html 

Any training / behavior theories on this?


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## Andy Andrews (May 9, 2006)

Heard about it lastnight on another board, but no one provided the link. Thanks for posting it.





Andy.


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## Kristina Senter (Apr 4, 2006)

Hard to say without seeing video/ knowing the dog. My GUESS would be that the dog gave plently of signs on this and previous occasions that the handler did not notice. Dog determined that mailman was suspicious, maybe the mail bag spooked him or something funny, but I'm sure the handler just didnt read the dog. Clearly, poor training is involved if he could not call the dog off anyway.


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## Alex Corral (Jul 10, 2007)

Wow. That is unfortunate. It doesn't say if he was on leash or not, but IMHO, no matter the training, the dog should've been on leash, especially off duty. I feel bad for Mr. Luckey.


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## Ted White (May 2, 2006)

Leash is a big point here. The dog is a weapon that can't be 100% assumed safe in every circumstance.

Training does become a question when not able to be called off. Surely in training he must have seen this as an issue . area to work on. All the more reason for the leash.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: Clearly, poor training is involved if he could not call the dog off anyway.

So everyones dogs here come back on command all the time??? If you do too many calloffs, then you have problems with the send. I know people that train this and it gets messy, so a cop with cop training, is probably gonna not get this right. (cop training I mean the small amount of time allotted)


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## Ted White (May 2, 2006)

To me, that's some good insight Jeff.


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## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

I don't think the problem here is that the dog was on or off-leash. I think the problem is the training. Use of a leash may have, in fact led this handler down the wrong road by thinking that he had the dog under control when all he had was restraint. Once the leash was out of his hands (or not present at all) it showed that he really did NOT have control. 

The handler should have been able to recall the dog, no matter what was going on, even in the middle of the fight. In this case it was a grown man who was able to partially defend himself. In spite of this, one bite was inches from causing death. The outcome might have been significantly different if it had been someone who was not so good at defending themselves. 

I used to have the teeter-totter problem of call-offs affecting the bite (one good, the other bad and vice versa) but don't anymore.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Plus, and this is true, I have had so many "three day" packages get to me on the 14th or 15th day, those little bastards need to get bit more often. I mean you pay the extra to get the package there, and they cannot figure out how to do it???? AND they get paid ANYWAY. I never get my money back as they just stand behind the counter with that bored look on their faces explaining over and over how it is not their fault, and that there are no guarentees in life.

I told them there was gonna be a guarenteed as whuppin if I didn't get my money back. I was about to have a seizure from the stupidity of the whole thing, and if I cannot have a government body at least have a form to fill out to be sent to the appropropriate authorities.........nevermind.


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## Alex Corral (Jul 10, 2007)

I think Jeff makes a very good point. Well, at least in post #6  , I know my dog's recall is not 100% and really no one can GUARANTEE their dog's recall is 100% in EVERY single situation the good Lord may throw at us. These are not robots, they are animals with a mind of their own. Even the most well trained animal has it's very own brain in it's head. The handler "should" have been able to recall the dog, but it didn't happen. Had he had a leash on him, he "could" have been able to restrain the dog.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

I can't speak for others, the call off is graded a "critical" item in the certification. If the dog can't call off, it fails. This is exactly one of the reasons I have said in the past; sometimes we put too much emphasis on the helper/decoy. In real life, often times the person being bitten does not freeze. They do not assume a straight up position and wait for the dog to release. They continue either fighting or trying to get away or just moving out of pain and fear. If the dog has not been made to release under those conditions, it probably won't. I agree with Lou: "The handler should have been able to recall the dog, no matter what was going on, even in the middle of the fight. "

Most police certifying agencies require 16 hours per month for inservice training. That is more than adequate, if the training time is used properly. Training records should tell you where you need to concentrate your training.

DFrost


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## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

Since one can't have a leash on a dog 24/7, it's essential that the dog's recall be so good that he can be called away from any distraction, including a bite where the decoy/suspect is fleeing, as was the case with this postman. 

If anyone has a problem in getting the out, there are people who can help. It's not hard at all when one starts from the right place. If you're trying to _force _a dog to release his bite, it might be a problem with many dogs. I've never failed to get the out and I'm often called in when all other methods have failed. 

The out is just as important as the bite, if not more important, at least in the world of police dogs; but lots of people train biting far more than they train the out.


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## Bryan Colletti (Feb 16, 2007)

*I have a unique perspective here.*

I have trained and donated several Police Dogs over the last ten years or so. I am also a 15 year veteran of The United States Postal Service. All 15 as a Mail Carrier. 

There is no better way to train a house guard dog than to employ the free services of your friendly unknowing Civil Servant. Each day at about the same time the Trainer shows up, you teach your dog to bark at him, and guess what, we empower and reward the dog by leaving the property promptly. We show up six days a week, every week of the year, even in poor weather {Well some do}

Let's assume this particular has a completely stable mind, he could very well have this MailMan intruder foundation and simply finally got his shot at one.

I have severaly dogs on my route that love me to peices and follow me around. I am the only exciting they see all day. One dog will ride in my truck for a loop. Then I have a few that will try to attack me everyday. They know about ten minutes before I even get in the area. Sixth sense and I have trained them well.

In my years, I have bitten three times, once drawing blood, the other two torn clothes. One dog I had to beat severely, no choice. Others and many of them, I have had to use body language so dominating they won't even look at me anymore. I would rather melt these dogs this way. However, occassionally there is that one percent of dogs, trained or untrained is absolutely deadly, and we will have to go the end of things should they get loose. 

A great French Ring Esceeve and then a size twelve in the backside works for me, but for Poor Mr. Luckey and just about every other Mail person, they are at the dogs mercy.

Here's to a speedy recovery Brother! Sad thing is, you will get jelly legs and a racing heart every time you hear even your own keys jingling in your pocket.
Even me.

Bryan

www.K9CS.org


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

*Re: I have a unique perspective here.*

Neuman!!!

Sorry, couldn't help myself.

DFrost


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## Alex Corral (Jul 10, 2007)

Sorry, I respectfully disagree. My opinion is still this dog should have been on leash. It doesn't have to be on leash 24/7, but at least when off duty. I know my dog is always on leash when not at home. If the cop saw a bad guy and his dog is on leash, he can still send the dog off to bite the guy while dragging a leash. Even a 2 foot traffic leash would've prevented this. Had he taken that itty bitty precaution, we wouldn't be posting about this, a man wouldn't be in the hospital & the canine wouldn't be on suspension.


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## Bryan Colletti (Feb 16, 2007)

*Re: I have a unique perspective here.*

"I don't work when it rains"

Neumania

"When you control the Mail, you control, Information"

I love that guy.


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## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

*Re: I have a unique perspective here.*

I find it hard to believe that anyone has a dog on a leash all the time when he's at home. In the kennel? In the crate? In the house? In the yard? 

Sending a dog to bite someone while he's "dragging his leash" is POOR handling. It gives the crook a great handle for the dog and means that it's easy for the leash to get caught on something, taking the dog out of the picture completely. It should never be done. Comments about releasing a dog from a leash fail to take into account how fast events unfold in the street, even if a so-called quick release is used. 

In this case relying on a leash may not have prevented the attack. Leashes break, they get pulled out of their handler's hands; dogs back out of their collars and harnesses if they're not put on properly. It's far better to rely on training than on a leash. A leash gives only restraint but many people think this is really control. It's not and they're fooling themselves. 

The Ecollar is the perfect back-up insurance in case the dog doesn't comply with a command but I've had dogs on the street that didn't need a stim for over two years. They complied with all commands, on a single command no matter what the distractions or how far they were from the handler. 

Watch any episode of Cops and you'll see handlers pointing their guns at people while their dogs are on leash, lunging at the crooks. No one can shoot accurately when that is going on. Far better to give the dog a command and then use both hands on your weapon. 

I realize that in many large cities K-9 handlers don't do stops of suspicious persons. But on smaller departments, most do. How do you do a pat down search of the suspect with an on-leash dog? How can you move away from the dog to force the suspect to divide his attention? Does the dog ride around in the unit with his leash on? Do you remove him from the crate/container, put the leash on and THEN go to work? A leash is an impediment to doing police K-9 work. 

I believe that a police dog should be on a leash during two periods. One is during crowd control and the other is during training. When he's working the field he should be off leash all the time. If this can't be done then the training is faulty. 

I used to do daily off-leash walk throughs of one of the busiest malls in southern California with my K-9. If the dog has been properly selected and trained, there's not a problem.


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## Alex Corral (Jul 10, 2007)

Lou, I find it hard to believe anyone has their dog on leash while at home too. I know I don't. But when my dog's not at home, she is on leash. I still don't believe an animal or person with it's own mind can be under 100% control without some sort of restraint. You are absolutely right as far as a leash being an impediment on a working K-9. I guess the cause of this incident was none other than poor handling.


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

> There is no better way to train a house guard dog than to employ the free services of your friendly unknowing Civil Servant. Each day at about the same time the Trainer shows up, you teach your dog to bark at him, and guess what, we empower and reward the dog by leaving the property promptly. We show up six days a week, every week of the year, even in poor weather {Well some do}


I know, great isn't it?


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## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

> I guess the cause of this incident was none other than poor handling.


I think there's quite a bit of evidence to show that this was not JUST a handler error. I think there are problems in the rest of the triad too, selection and training; especially the selection phase.


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

Mike Schoonbrood said:


> I know, great isn't it?


our tax dollars at work, right? gotta love it!!!

and a big "THANKS" to all of our public servants that make the ultimate sacrifice to help train dogs


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

The postal service doesn't use a penny of tax dollars, it's self sustained. In fact, revenue they earn helps pay for other government run programs.


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

my bad. it's good to know my 41 cent stamp is supplementing my tax dollars...


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Of course they earn money.  If they had to give refunds for all the times my 3 day mail took 10 to 14 days, then, lets see..............yes, they woluld have to give the money back every time.

Postal service blows.


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