# Early Neurological Stimulation ..



## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

I've been reading up on this. Seeing how the more experienced starts their pups on the board. I'd like to hear what others have experienced trying this or not. Or am I fretting to much over the details. 

http://www.breedingbetterdogs.com/articles/early_neurological_stimulation_en.html


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Geoff, there are a bunch of threads on this on this board. I did not do shit with the pups for the first two three weeks and you can see from what Carol has said about her pup, and I can tell you, it means **** all. I just let them be, and feel it is a crock of shit.


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

I second that.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

> The U.S. Military in their canine program developed a method that still serves as a guide to what works. In an effort to improve the performance of dogs used for military purposes, a program called "Bio Sensor" was developed. Later, it became known to the public as the "Super Dog" Program.


This statement off that link is bullshit then? Or is "Super Dog" something totally different? 

Yeah I fret to much .. LOL!


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Trust me, doing it hurts nothing. I do it with my puppies, other breeders do not do it. I am happy with the way my puppies turn out from doing it, Jeff is happy with the way his puppies turn out from not doing it. 
I am sure if Jeff did it or I did not do it we would still be happy with the way the puppies work. I just like to do it because I cant leave them alone and I like to play with them and handle them everyday, I like showing them new things and I like watching them use their brains and muscles when they are old enough to wobble around a little too.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Yeah Mike and Jeff. I did do the search and found all the old threads. Pretty interesting info from both sides of the fence. 

Seeing so many shitters from pet breedings over the years. As well as seeing the demise of <insert popular working breeds here in North America that can no longer work>. Being a newb like me you have to wonder what contributes to the demise of nerve and working attributes? 

Sure a pup is a blank canvas .. but what mixes the paint? What makes a Piccaso and what makes a splatter painting, saying all things are somewhat equal genetically.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Geoff Empey said:


> Sure a pup is a blank canvas .. but what mixes the paint? What makes a Piccaso and what makes a splatter painting, saying all things are somewhat equal genetically.


You had me at blank canvas :razz:

It would be interesting to see a litter that half the pups had this and the other half not, even then it may not be an indicator of anything.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Geoff said'


> Being a newb like me you have to wonder what contributes to the demise of nerve and working attributes?


Breeding crap dogs is what does it.


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

Maybe give shoot this guy an email. [email protected] He was an army dog trainer who worked with dogs of the Bio Sensor program from 1973 to 1976.



> _"The negative side....many of these dogs were skittish. The nerves on these dogs were weak compared to most of the other GS. The recovery of these dogs was very slow and in some cases they would get stuck at a point and just didn't have the gumption to proceed further.....
> 
> There was constant conflict between the traing Sgts and the admin. over the danger of sending these dogs over to Nam. These dogs were very typical of many showline dogs of today, and the military needed and had dogs that had good nerve and courage. Lastly, these dogs lacked the courage piece in addition to the nerve piece. Everybody in the Scout dog detachment looked upon these dogs as a "joke" in terms of being useful to the mission....
> 
> When it was time for motor vehicle searches, or highly confined areas like c-130 aircraft, or areas where the surface was slippery or high or iron grates,etc....these dogs were highly ineffective."_


Whoever stated that that program was a success, obviously didn't ask this guy's first hand experienced opinion.


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> It would be interesting to see a litter that half the pups had this and the other half not, even then it may not be an indicator of anything.


I've done it, and complete litters of the same repeat breedings of "with vs. without." No correlation of quality, that I could identify.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I would leave it the **** alone. The little ****ers were on their feet at 10 days. I can see where ****ing with them might cause problems. 

My thing, is I KNOW it does **** all, and you are gonna get too attatched to them to make a decent eval later. All I ever saw where higher thresholds in dogs that did not need them.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Breeding crap dogs is what does it.


Agreed! 

There is a lot to be said for what a natureopathic breeding like you do and as well what the bio-sensor stimulation does too. Obviously leaving the pups and the mom outside does the same thing to a pups senses. Hot/cold, the outside noises it all probably adds up to the same type of sensory experience for a pup.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I would leave it the **** alone. The little ****ers were on their feet at 10 days. I can see where ****ing with them might cause problems.
> 
> My thing, is I KNOW it does **** all, and you are gonna get too attatched to them to make a decent eval later. All I ever saw where higher thresholds in dogs that did not need them.


Your right Jeff .. I'll keep in minimal but let the house operate normally around them. With my two young boys running around like the crazy men that they are, should be enough to bio-sense the crap out of anything! LOL! 

I suspect that not exposing pups to anything has just the same chance to cause problems as to much.

Thanks Daryl for the input and your experiences.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Gotta remember that ENS is based on ****ing with them every day a couple of times a day starting from day 1.

When they are up and moving, of course you can take them out and let them play. I just don't spend the money to set up little tunnels and shit. THere is no need for me to do so.

Not saying there is anything wrong with it, but what is the fun of getting a pup, and he has seen all this shit already ?? How will you know what he she really is if the stupid breeder goes and ****s with it ?? 

Think I am going to believe them ?? LOL


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Gotta remember that ENS is based on ****ing with them every day a couple of times a day starting from day 1.
> 
> When they are up and moving, of course you can take them out and let them play. I just don't spend the money to set up little tunnels and shit. THere is no need for me to do so.
> 
> ...


 
I agree with you there that I don't beleive any breeder, trainer or anyone for that matter unless I see it myself, however there are few that have a great reputation and friendship with me that I would belive what they say, cause it isn't about the money, its about the dog.

OK, so I know you or anyone else doesn't just let pups rot in a whelping box or kennel till they are 8 weeks old and sell them....However I know of a particular litter or two that was like that and their genetics were really nice, but these pups were terrible. Do you think they would of been better with ENS? 

My point is if your playing with them and touching them and getting them out there to run around, your basically doing some ENS as well as the mother is just doing her motherly duties. 

I don't think it can hurt any pup, and I really don't think it hides anything. The pup is going to make it or break it because of who he is (genetics) and the training he recieves period. Yes, some may take longer and some may not, this can or cannot be affected through ENS??

Everyone has their beliefs in it, and some do the ENS a little differently than the ENSprotocal, or super dog program which is the same thing anyway. 

But anyone that actively plays with the little devils and handles them when they are born are doing some type of stimulation early on. 

I have not seen where it hurt the dog, and for the amount of time it takes to do the protocal along with the time I will be playing and messing with the pups, I think its worth the effort!


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I just don't spend the money to set up little tunnels and shit. THere is no need for me to do so.


Will get some pics today, but Friday we had a chunk of 8" steel pipe in the office, it was about 2' long.....little Ash was crawling through it to get her chicken.....

I don't know, I agree with both sides...and I would do some stuff, but I would not overdo it.....I have been having a blast trying stuff out with Ash that she was not subjected to with Jeff.....and, since she didn't have a lot before she came here, I am really pleased with how forward and willing she is. 

(Oh yeah....Picasso=GSD and Paint Splatter=Mal.....:mrgreen::mrgreen::mrgreen: )


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Jody said


> I don't think it can hurt any pup, and I really don't think it hides anything. The pup is going to make it or break it because of who he is (genetics) and the training he recieves period. Yes, some may take longer and some may not, this can or cannot be affected through ENS??


Your right Jody, it won't hurt any pup, but, it does cover up what you ar seeing long enough for you to pay good money for a pup that looked good. Think about it, all of these band-aide miracle methods are designed to shore up the weak. They would have never wasted the time trying to get super dogs if they had good dogs to start with. All of the special programs in schools are based on the kids that are challenged. With kids, they even segregate the challenged ones from the rest so the ones that are not handicapped, for whatever reason, can move at a faster pace and achieve whatever their potential allows them to achieve. Personally as a breeder, I want to be able to evaluate the pups from the best to the worst....in order. Makes it hard if you handle them from day one. It really has nothing to do with the ENS anyway. They will get that whether you do it or mom does it. It is the constant handling that makes the weak totally comfortable with being handled....it isn't the ENS. It is simple conditioning.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Carol Boche said:


> I don't know, I agree with both sides...and I would do some stuff, but I would not overdo it.....I have been having a blast trying stuff out with Ash that she was not subjected to with Jeff.....and, since she didn't have a lot before she came here, I am really pleased with how forward and willing she is.


Me too I agree, they need something either it is from being out in the weather such as Don's Airedales hearing the wind blow, coyotes howling in the distance with the normal cyclic change of the weather. To Jeff's idea which is just keep a normal running house with the assorted sights and sounds. No reason to artificially coddle them or keep them in a bubble is my thought. After all they will be working dogs, not some pissy assed pet. :wink: 



Carol Boche said:


> (Oh yeah....Picasso=GSD and Paint Splatter=Mal.....:mrgreen::mrgreen::mrgreen: )


Or relating to Joby's thread on decoy injuries, Blood Splatter! LOL!


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Your right Jody, it won't hurt any pup, but, it does cover up what you ar seeing long enough for you to pay good money for a pup that looked good. Think about it, all of these band-aide miracle methods are designed to shore up the weak. They would have never wasted the time trying to get super dogs if they had good dogs to start with.


Don how would doing this shore up the weak? If an animal is weak .. it's weak. The ones in the litter that are strong will still just progress better/quicker than the weak one anyways no matter all things being equal. No? Thoughts please. .


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Geoff, you doing the whole ENS routing adds nothing. They will get that whether you waste you rime doing it or not. The one thing the mom cannot do is supply the "human contact". That is what makes the difference in how the pups react to people as they get older. This is also why during part of this ENS proccess, if I recall, more than one person is supposed to do the ENS . You will see the exact same difference if you just go to the whelping box and pick each pup up for 20 or 30 seconds and hold it and talk to it. It is the human contact that conditions the weaker pups......not the ENS. Let's face it, when a pup comes running to you to be held, they are conditioned to it. My pups come running to me, but they are not crazy about me picking them up. They want down immediately. It is no big deal because they are to big to be lap dogs anyway. 
There is a condtion refered to as separation anxiety. What you are seeing is a weak dog that has been conditioned to people from day one. With the person, the dog appear totally normal. The person leaves and the dog freaks out and destroys the house....but it still has no effect on the strong pups. The weak dogs, people etc, always have a much stronger reaction to things. Whether it makes them uncomfortable or comfortable the reaction will be more desperate.


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Geoff Empey said:


> Don how would doing this shore up the weak? If an animal is weak .. it's weak. The ones in the litter that are strong will still just progress better/quicker than the weak one anyways no matter all things being equal. No? Thoughts please. .


 
What is its weak because there were 10 pups in the litter and mom spent the littlest time with that one? The human touch or just getting the pup out for some one on one time can be beneifical. Some dogs are always going to be stronger and or weaker, thats a given, but not necesarrily weak as to be culled or adopted out as a pet.....Not at 8 weeks, sorry I just can't fathom that. I have had dogs look like shit till they were 8 months and someone told me to keep them and keep them, they mature slowly, my dumbass sold him and now at 14 months he is a monster, I tried to buy him back for double the price. It has nothing to do with training on that one as he is a friend and lives down the road and does NOTHING with the dog, just dabbles in it. The dog can be great in the hands of the right trainer. My point is I didn't see anything in him for the longest time and a good friend says they mature slowly......ENS or not, there will be strong and weaker dogs. These weaker dogs can still be utilized if the trainer knows what he is getting........Back to previous discussion....If you know a breeder and/or trainer and has credibility, this individual will not sell a POS pup to you for the amount of money a great pup will go for! 

On the other hand I know tons of people that have great marketing and SHIT in the kennels! I think there was a link here recently that was really sad! 

I guess what I am saying is it isn't much time at all per pup even with 4-5 litters at once, who is to say it works or not, I much rather do it. Most service, police dogs and others need to be social with personnel anyway and if this helps, I will do it! 

I won't purchase or associate myself with a guy that hides shit in his pups/dogs anyway! And the good ones know for the most part it can be a crapshoot! 

I use to raise sled dogs 40+ with about 4-6 litters a year and had pups everywhere all the time, running through the dog yard, etc. Most females weren't spayed and none of the males were nuetered. My raising pups was simply provide them with as much love, affection and attention I possibly could and they will do anything for me.....it paid of, never had dog fights, all super social and did exactly what I wanted them to do. Never did the ENS on them, but when I look back as much playing and touching I did from the moment of thier birth, I probably did. Either way, there was strong and weaker dogs, of which both worked. and of course some found their destiny, but who knows...... I beleive in it!


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

ENS are a few simple tasks, doesn't matter if you do it or not, when the dog goes to his new owner he will be faced with much other challenges in a new area, different poeple, obstacles, etc...life will be new for him, he will have his issues or not....REGARDLESS of ENS!


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

You need to read up a little more on all the amazing BS that ens is claiming.

Dogs are gonna live longer, handle stress better, bla bla bla.

There is life with the pups, and then there is the ENS. We are not talking about after the little weasels are up and running, we are talking about the time BEFORE they are up and running about.

You asked me about a litter with what you said was good genetics and the pups were in the kennel till 8 weeks. Well, what was it that made you think that it was good genetics ?? OR a good combination ?? If you saw how little Ash saw before she left the house, you would probably just shit. LOL

They saw the inside of the kennel, a couple of other dogs, some varying weather, and a couple of people, ALL of whom their mother EXPLODED on..........and then she was beaten, as I ****ing hate that. They did not want to walk through the crunchy leaves the first time. That was about all I did.

But I look at it differently. If you have spent time with the pups, and showed them all this stuff over and over again, how in the name of **** all am I supposed to be able to see what I really would like to see ??

I just want to see this shit on my own. Look what Carol got to experience. The little ****er knew **** all about the world, and so Carol gets to see how she handles it. NOT because I taught the pup to do so, but from whatever is just her.

So I would question good genetics when the pups are shit after 8 weeks in a kennel. Good temperament is just ****ing there. No need to add, ENS is just a bunch of silly girls that want to touch their pups non stop, and count their $$$$ in their head while they do so.

I also ****ing HATE dogs that mature late. I have shit to do dammit. : )


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> You need to read up a little more on all the amazing BS that ens is claiming.
> 
> Dogs are gonna live longer, handle stress better, bla bla bla.
> 
> ...


Handle stress, I beleive it can help cuz the dog is seeing it and/or being conditioned to it. The other crap, not so much.....I here ya there is give and take, but I would do it, just me... 

I have no time for late bloomers as well, but I will never get rid of a dog before 14-16 months now, I will give that long even if it is a waste of my time! On the othe hand I have seen a few really nice pups go flat after thier teething, heat cylce or simple maturity regardless of training. Lets hope Ash or Jr don't go south!

What's up with your GSD? Keeping or hittin the road? How's he coming along now? Any work lately?


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I am pretty intense a little too often. I am really bad when I get competitive, so I try not to be the old me. I am hard on myself, my dog, my decoys and such when I am in that mode, so I stay out of it.

The old "me" was popping up, towards the end, and so I just took a break. I have been busy with work, looking for property, Kevin has been out of town and so on and so on.

I decided that this was better for me, and for the dog. My decoy Kevin is solid solid solid, so he would be fine with it, but why all the stress, I just don't need it. I am skipping two trials that are coming up real soon, and will just go to California to trial at the Championships.

This time I will train everything, and be a little bit of what I used to be, but will probably have to have a "safe" word. LOL

Buko will get to compete against his brother, and a real nice dog named Bogan, and whoever else shows up. It will be a lot of fun to trial against his brother. 

My only wish there is that Lisa and Ron Geller would come down and train with me, and we could go out to the Championships together. I want to compete against her and Goose as well, could be the last time I get to with Buko.

Esko is in that 7 month old stage that I truely hate. Half the time they are pussies, and half the time they are beating the **** out of you. I have been working on dumb stuff with him, just foundation stuff. He is stubborn as all hell. If he decides NOT to do something, geez, don't even get me started on that. As is, he is stronger than a heck of a lot of dogs I have seen lately. He just is one of those dogs that doesn't really get into playing with their owners. He does love the shit out of me. Don't know why, all the beatings he has had lately for being a dumbass........](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)


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## Lisa Geller (Mar 29, 2007)

Jeff,

A friend of mine was telling me the story of Man o'War and Seabisquit. _maybe_ making the analogy that the mongoose was the mondio seabisquit. I had to say -- if any dog was seabisquit, it would be your dog.

Totally, you have done great things with Buko. You have taken your *self-trained* dog to foreign fields and trialed against decoys that have barely seen your dog. I don't think people really get the difference, opposed to training on your trial helper then in trialing on your home field. It's a bold difference. 

I for one would be cheering for Buko the whole way! 

and, you almost had me talked into it...


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Thank you Lisa. I really would like to have you come down and train so we can go together and see what is up with the threes in the USA.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

You know I was fan of ENS when I first heard about it. Simply because it seemed like it gave the human (me)some control on the out come. of the puppy's promise. It also had the feeling if you did this, you were doing some super top secret military dog training, that will make your dog bullet proof.

I even argued against Jeff about this. But Jeff, did get me thinking....Where's the proof? Could Jeff be right?

After looking at my dog, which had Bio Sensor done to it. Comparing her to other dogs both whom have had it done, and whom have not. I see absolutley no effects in any of the dogs whom have had Bio-Senosr done to them. My dog turned out just fine. She had sibilings who had the same upbringing. Some had success and others did not. Then looking at dogs who have not had the training. I have seen the whole litter have success. And other litters who did have it...and all of them shitters. My dog also got very sick at one with parvo. Even after vaccinations. Her sister also got it (within hours of each other....must have been somwhere they both visited together). 2 one year old dogs, vaccinated, both had Parvo....Both had Bio Senor done to them. Where's the immune system? Granted we lived right on the Mexican border where Parvo is rampated and it's more common for older dogs to get Parvo in that part of the country. But They both got sick....And if Bio Sensor can provide a stronger immune system. Why did both get it? I think it would be worth doing if the dogs would not get sick. 

I have also seen in that litter a strong variance in social behavior, enviormental nerves...the whole sha-bang. One thing all the dogs did have was a strong pack drive and full hard grips. but Mommy and Daddy both had strong lines of pack drive and grips.

I also have seen no official goverment report of Bio-Sensor....Nothing that proves the Military even did this, or came to these results. Just some people claiming they did.

I also talked with a man whom is involved with the breeding program at Lackland...He claims they do not have much success with thier breedings....If Bio-Sensor was so great, I would think you would see a better than normal return on successful dogs with a breeding program on that large of a scale.


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

James Downey said:


> You know I was fan of ENS when I first heard about it. Simply because it seemed like it gave the human (me)some control on the out come. of the puppy's promise. It also had the feeling if you did this, you were doing some super top secret military dog training, that will make your dog bullet proof.
> 
> I even argued against Jeff about this. But Jeff, did get me thinking....Where's the proof? Could Jeff be right?
> 
> ...


 
I do beleive alot of what you said, proof is in the pudding and sometimes its something you may never notice or see, however I still do it and will continue to do it. 

As far as Lackland......I know who started the Bio Sensor, what it was suppose to be, who does it now and what it is...............I really think they need to learn more on breeding quality dogs rather than raising them first of all. And your right success rate isn't high at all.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Jody Butler said:


> I do beleive alot of what you said, proof is in the pudding and sometimes its something you may never notice or see, however I still do it and will continue to do it.
> 
> As far as Lackland......I know who started the Bio Sensor, what it was suppose to be, who does it now and what it is...............I really think they need to learn more on breeding quality dogs rather than raising them first of all. And your right success rate isn't high at all.


 
So, if they do Bio-Sensor to the pups at Lackland and it works....How shitty is Lacklands breeding program?

The claims on it's effective are not it will help a little bit, but there will be a huge noticable difference. 

I am not sure what you are saying about thier breeding quality... It kind of proves the point. Just focus on breeding quality...that's what matters. Like I said, I have not seen any dog, grow into super dog, because of the Bio-Sensor program. But I have seen plenty of them come from quality breedings. But even then, if a good dog, had Bio-Sensor preformed, would it not stand out?....I mean way out, above all the other good dogs that the breeders did not do Bio-Sensor. 

I think early stimulation happens...unless you put the dogs in a crate and deprive them of stimulation. The puppies are being stimulated...every waking moment. 

Now that's a something to think about. Children that are awake more learn faster as adults. Breast feed children have better stress response...this has been linked to skin on skin contact. In a litter, these types of things just happen. 

I think Bio-Sensor is just one more attempt for man to think he has a better design than nature. Talking of proof...It seems whenever man interferes with nature, we just make a mess of things. Look at selective breeding.


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