# Dogs and Snakes



## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

For those of you who live in wooded rural areas, do you ever have any issues with poisonous snakes around your property? Are there ever any issues with letting dogs run around the property where poisonous snakes could be?

A friend warned me against living near a lake with dogs because of the cottonmouth's in Florida, which led me to looking up information on poisonous snakes. It makes me wonder if its safe to let dogs roam around large wooded properties.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

In the states I would not let dogs roam around large wooded properties for many reasons.

Snakes, ...... in Florida I would also be concerned about gators ..... I went to schools in central Florida from 7-12th grade and it was routine for friends to say "my dog got eaten by a gator" {Merritt Island was a wildlife refuge back then and we had plenty of gators even though they were almost decimated elsewhere back then]

Different areas different snakes. Copperheads not too bad but cottonmouths and rattlesnakes - coral snakes but they don't have teeth worth much, can be, but what about other varmints? Racoons (carry rabies and distemper and can be dangerous), Coyotes, Deer (dog may run and get hit by car), panthers (well, you mentioned Florida), bears, etc. Also people and liability concerns?

My dogs offlead with me around but not just running loose or in large fenced area. I don't even leave my dogs unsupervised in my fenced in suburban back yard.


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

So lets say you are walking through 30 acres of wooded area with your dogs off lead (entire 30 acres is fenced for the sake of argument)... if there is a snake there that wants to bite the dog, wouldnt the dog get bitten regardless of your presence?


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Snake does not "want" to bite the dog (unless it is like a boa constrictor which - well - they have those too in Florida though not native]. 

If the dog bothers or startles the snake, the snake will react but not always right away. You also know when it happened and probably what it was which will help medically. You don't know that if your dog just comes back to the house with a head that has doubled in size so you may have some issues IF antivenom is called for (typically not for dogs I think with many bites) . Plus some snakes take a bit of bothering before they decide they will bite and you may be able to call the dog off.

More typical around here is dog runs past snake, stirs it up, person behind dog (e.g. trailing, SAR) gets bit. in the spring or in snaky areas snake gaiters good investment. Some places folks snakeproof (and I have even heard of gator proofing) their dogs.


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

Very interesting, thanks Nancy.


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## Will Kline (Jan 10, 2008)

Up here in Michigan poisonous snakes are not a concern. My biggest concern when out in the wooded areas would be a skunk spray or rabid animal. When I was down in NC and would take my dog for 8 mile walks every day we ran into copperheads and moccasins but never had a problem because I was very diligent about my dog knowing the command "Leave it" and we would leave the snake alone and be on our way. During these walks the dog was off lead but also knew the command "far enough" which would keep him in eyesight and out of trouble as long as you dont count jumping into that stinky black muck of swamp water! :?


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

In California rattlers are a big concern. During spring and summer when I'm out in the canyons I stick to wide fire roads just to avoid my dog being bitten. My dog gets the rattlesnake vaccination, however; all that does is buy you time to get the dog to a hospital for antivenom.


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## Al Curbow (Mar 27, 2006)

I guess it depends on how you live with your dogs. I take a different one to work everyday (industrial construction sites) and there's a million ways for a dog to get hurt, i hope nothing ever happens but i guess it could, obedience is the key. I would love to excersize my dogs on a piece of property like that with an ATV or something, they'd love it.,
AL


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Will Kline said:


> Up here in Michigan poisonous snakes are not a concern.


Probably not a concern because they aren't very common, but you do have one species of poisonous snake in Michigan (only in the LP) - the Eastern Massasauga.

http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,1607,7-153-10370_12145_12201-32995--,00.html


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## Will Kline (Jan 10, 2008)

Konnie Hein said:


> Probably not a concern because they aren't very common, but you do have one species of poisonous snake in Michigan (only in the LP) - the Eastern Massasauga.
> 
> http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,1607,7-153-10370_12145_12201-32995--,00.html


 
You are quite right about the Eastern Massasauga being here but...I have tromped through the woods since I was 5 and spent quite a bit of time during the summer breaks of school out in the woods. My parents used to send us off the the grandparents or aunt and uncles houses in the country. Give a boy the opportunity to wander and my brother and I would disappear for hours on end! \\/ 

In all my decades of wandering about Michigan I have only ever seen this particular guy once. Quite surprised when I did too as I saw a pair of them together. A larger female and smaller male. The snake is listed as a "species of concern" so becoming much more scarce as years go by. I do appreciate the heads up and think it is important for others to be aware of this species as it is still poisonous.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I've seen half a dozen or more working terriers get bit by snakes but those crazy little bassids wont startle and avoid like most dogs. 
The average dog seems to have a natural adversion to snakes.
The copperhead bites I've seen seem to recover with very little medical help. Even in a 12-15 lb dog.


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Will Kline said:


> In all my decades of wandering about Michigan I have only ever seen this particular guy once. Quite surprised when I did too as I saw a pair of them together. A larger female and smaller male.


Very cool that you saw one (or two)! I saw one too while working as an environmental consultant in northern Indiana. I was doing some surveying work near a wet meadow and encountered one. Neat stuff (I'm a total wildlife nerd).


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## Will Kline (Jan 10, 2008)

Konnie Hein said:


> (I'm a total wildlife nerd).


Thats me too. I was always the biology kid growing up. Used to get the Kids magazine Ranger Rick and had the full collection of the Wildlife Collection Cards complete with the green carrying case! :wink:

My mother was a bit upset one time when in the basement she found an empty plastic 1 gallon milk carton that used to hold about 30 or so garter snakes. It seems that I didn't screw the cap on all the way! :-o


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## Terry Fisk (Jul 26, 2007)

Here in the High Desert of So California we have Mojave Green Rattlesnakes which have the most potent venom of any rattlesnake in N America. They are prevalent in the spring and can often be found in shady places during the heat of the day. This includes in shrubs and bushes (off the ground away from the heat), around the dogs water buckets and any other area that provides relief from the heat of the day. We have not had a problem at our place but have friends and relatives who have dogs that have been bitten and had a variety of results. Rattlesnake vaccination is offered at our local veterinarians and snake avoidance clinics are very common in the Spring/Summer. We keep the dogs close when out walking to prevent them from running across and startling snakes.

Terry Fisk
www.showandsport.com
www.firecreeks.com


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## Kayce Cover (Oct 30, 2007)

Hi Mike,

I believe in teaching animals to detect, recognize, alert and respond to natural dangers they are likely to encounter in their work. I have trained my dogs and horses to recognize snakes and take me around them. 

In Florida, alligators are a big danger, and doing SAR, the dog is ahead of you, and needs to know to get the heck out of dodge if he smells an alligator, and oh yeah, take me with you!

Some things I have learned in doing this: a dog may not see a still snake an inch from his nose, if it is upwind. It is important to work your dog into the wind OR your job is to guard the upwind flank.

I would not used defanged rattlers to train this. The fangs grow back and you cannot be sure what stage that process is at. It is also very painful and dangerous for the defanged snake. There are 6-7 different poisonous snakes to worry about in Florida. However, it seems that snake musk of any snake can work for all. (I have not thououghly tested this yet!) Snake musk is a good place to start in getting dogs to note and ID them.

The dogs also need to know not to stick their noses into Gopher tortoise holes. Rattlers like to den there. 

They need to know not to mouth toads.

I chose to teach the scents of bears, cougars and swine, and to avoid these. Also teach not to chase game - especially rabbits. I like to be methodical and thorough for these things. It does not take long (a week or two) to cover everything. We were working all day long on various aspect of SAR work. If you do your job right, the dog actively looks for snakes when working and is able to keep focus split at all times. To test, put snake source between the dog and task source and the dog should take a break, avoid the snake source and then get back to work - after alerting you, of course. 

I like direct ID alerts where the dog reports to me and I give two choices, "Snake" and "Other". If the dog says snake, I go with them. If he says other, I ask "alligator or other". Alligator, we are skedaddling. Other: "cougar or other", then "bear or other" then "swine or other" then I can relax. If it is anything else, it is not so urgent. ID alerts usually take only minutes to teach and they are so much more specific than having to watch for a nuance of behavior. There might be somewhere you would need something different, but I haven't been convinced yet.

Regards,
Kayce


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Terry Fisk said:


> Here in the High Desert of So California we have Mojave Green Rattlesnakes which have the most potent venom of any rattlesnake in N America. They are prevalent in the spring and can often be found in shady places during the heat of the day. This includes in shrubs and bushes (off the ground away from the heat), around the dogs water buckets and any other area that provides relief from the heat of the day. We have not had a problem at our place but have friends and relatives who have dogs that have been bitten and had a variety of results. Rattlesnake vaccination is offered at our local veterinarians and snake avoidance clinics are very common in the Springhttp://www.


 
Isn't the Mojave Green the one variety who's bite is not afforded any protection by the vaccine?


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## Terry Fisk (Jul 26, 2007)

susan tuck said:


> Isn't the Mojave Green the one variety who's bite is not afforded any protection by the vaccine?


I checked the species covered and you are correct. They do make different versions of the vaccination depending on the demographics but not for Mojave Rattlesnakes yet. 

Terry


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Kayce Cover said:


> I believe in teaching animals to detect, recognize, alert and respond to natural dangers they are likely to encounter in their work. I have trained my dogs and horses to recognize snakes and take me around them.


Do you have any video of this? It would be interesting to see.



> Snake musk is a good place to start in getting dogs to note and ID them.


 I do believe that in the Spring copperheads are particularly odiferous



> I chose to teach the scents of bears, cougars and swine, and to avoid these. Also teach not to chase game - especially rabbits. I like to be methodical and thorough for these things. It does not take long (a week or two) to cover everything. We were working all day long on various aspect of SAR work. If you do your job right, the dog actively looks for snakes when working and is able to keep focus split at all times. To test, put snake source between the dog and task source and the dog should take a break, avoid the snake source and then get back to work - after alerting you, of course.


This seems like a lot for the dog to process. I say this because my only correlation is my visual sense where if I am too busy worrying about terrain features, I loose some of my effectiveness in scanning for clues. Is there any info on the impact of the effectiveness of the dog to search for the target odor. We do have all of these animals up here. I have not seen much rabbit chasing but many dogs have run a deer or two at some point in time.



> ID alerts usually take only minutes to teach and they are so much more specific than having to watch for a nuance of behavior.


 For the working scent dog, since you ARE watching for nuances of behavior you do pick up on when they pick up animal scent vs human scent..... even prey vs predator but not as specific as what you are indicating.

It is all interesting. I would love to see it in action. Are there any SAR teams actively using this technique? I would love to talk directly with them about the effectiveness of the technique.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Define "snakes." Two legged or legless. The other post on firearms says it all. And the landowner wins again!


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

OK enough of that please. We've already got a thread on that, we don't need it taking over discussions that are actually interesting.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

The years I spent at the DOD Dog School, we had thousands of students and dogs out and among the mesquite and prickly pear cactus. We had a few snake bites, I don't recall ever losing a dog because of a bite though. Mostly Diamond Back's were involved. In Southeast Asia we had a real problem with banded kraits, and cobras, deadly little scutters. Generally though unless you surprised them you never saw them. I don't recall a dog ever being bitten by one, but I can't say there never was one.

DFrost


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Mike, you know a little bit of my history in Costa Rica. I lived with my Rott way back in the rain forests (nice name for jungle) of C.R. for awhile. There was a variety of poisonous snakes. Snakes were always a major concern for everyone there. In fact a snake killed one of my horses. Doctors and vets were many hours away by boat. There were no roads. Snake proofing with ecollars is the best way I know. My friend there had a ecollar. I snake proofed also did refresher courses for my Rott every 3-4 months.


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

People should not forget about scorpions either. In many places they are as dangerous as some poisonous snakes. I've seen some horrible scorpion bites.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

I have wondered about that proofing but if I proof a dog working in the woods to every known dangerous animal .......... could I wind up with a dog that is too averse to work? 

I know we had a recent search where we probably came quite close to a large predator........well that is based on the dogs body language of hackling, lowering tail, pulling back ears, hanging closer to me and staying between me and it, but not going in on it (and also on the known preponderance of black bears in that particular locale).........he naturally avoided it but went back into working mode once we got past it. If he had been conditoned with a shock (and I think snakeproofing is high stim) is there not a greater chance that he would have shut down entirely?

FYI - I know dogs can do that with a full human body if they have not encountered one but he has been exposed to full bodies and has not displayed these behaviors.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

susan tuck said:


> My dog gets the rattlesnake vaccination, however; all that does is buy you time to get the dog to a hospital for antivenom.


Is anti-venom available for purchase? Or is it only a poison control health care item? If it is indeed available can it be frozen for a longer shelf life? Is that even worth it to have it? I'm just thinking for people who have a way to go to a vet or health unit.


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

I could be wrong on this but I believe I looked into that when I was in Costa Rica. I think the answer was they needed to know what kind of snake to determine the anti-venom type and/or dose. There were too many different varieties of snakes. Refrigeration for shelf life was a problem as well.


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## Kayce Cover (Oct 30, 2007)

Hi Nancy,

Just a quick reply: Yes, I do have video. I know of one team using it (my client) and I will check with her and see if she is interested in talking about it. She is on some SAR lists and you might put out a call. However, I am working out of country for a bit, so keep the faith...

I agree that the split focus is a supreme challenge, but one that can make a life or death difference. I will also say that I think this dog is really smart.

I think it would make a really cool workshop - even just with aligators, for Floridians.

Best,
Kayce


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

From what I have researched and also discussed with my regular vet and a few others, all the vaccines really do is buy you some time. 

Here, we have the Prairie Rattlesnake, which like most snakes, will try to avoid a confrontation. 

My vet has set me up with everything he would do for a dog with a snake-bite. I.V. support, injectable antibiotics and anti-inflammatory drugs. 
If I ever have a dog bitten I have all I need to start support and get to the vet office as sometimes I am in upwards of 4 hours away. 
(I also have a bloat kit and carry a firearm in case one of my dogs bloats, namingly the Bloodhound, and I cannot get a tube down or release the air with a thoracic needle between his ribs, I would not let him suffer that kind of death). 

Antivenin is very expensive and also has a very short "shelf" life. If it is not used, the vet is out a lot of money and if it is used, it may take several viles to help the dog.

Dogs that run loose (rez dogs) and also ranch dogs that get bitten are usually not even taken to the vet. Several ranchers/farmers I have talked with say that the dog is "sick for a while, then comes out of it". 
Not the way I would do it, but it is still similar to the "Ole West" where I live. 

So, I am confident that I have and can do all things needed in case of an emergency like that. 

Most likely it is going to be a handler bitten rather than the dogs, and my dogs pretty much ignore them or leave things when I tell them to.


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Not the case with my Rott, Carol. He was "all over" snakes until I proofed him. He would go hunting for them if I wasn't watching.


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Lee H Sternberg said:


> Not the case with my Rott, Carol. He was "all over" snakes until I proofed him. He would go hunting for them if I wasn't watching.


YIKES....naughty dog...8-[ :razz:


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## Rick Hake (Nov 29, 2007)

When I lived in the Corpus Christi, Tx area there was a fellow that came to the ranchers in the area and contracted with them to train their dogs to stay away from snakes.
He carried his own rattlesnakes and used an electric collar on the dog. He would work them for two days and the rancher I knew swore by the training. He would do refresher training every spring.
Rick


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Carol Boche said:


> Most likely it is going to be a handler bitten rather than the dogs, and my dogs pretty much ignore them or leave things when I tell them to.



That is pretty much what we believe but you know, since we have gotten into this cadaver stuff - often that is not crashing through the woods but detailing areas and dog is poking its head all kinds of places..............

For us our poisonous snakes are mainly Eastern Diamondbacks (Western Part of State), Copperheads, Water Mocassins, Coral Snakes (coastaL), Timber Rattlers, and Pygmy Rattlers

But that still leaves us with wild boars and gators and gators have slowly moved northward -- bears and cougars and coyotes out there but not as concerned about them. I have heard the boars can be particularly mean but at least you see signs of them in their "element" as they really tear up the ground. Gators, well, if theres water............................


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## Patrick Cheatham (Apr 10, 2006)

Will Kline; Up here in Michigan poisonous snakes are not a concern. My biggest concern when out in the wooded areas would be a skunk spray or rabid animal. When I was down in NC and would take my dog for 8 mile walks every day we ran into copperheads and moccasins but never had a problem because I was very diligent about my dog knowing the command "Leave it" and we would leave the snake alone and be on our way. During these walks the dog was off lead but also knew the command "far enough" which would keep him in eyesight and out of trouble as long as you dont count jumping into that stinky black muck of swamp water! 

Talk about being sprayed by a skunk. Poor girl I work with heard her dog barking like crazy in the backyard one night. She goes out to find it cornered by a skunk. So she can't save the dog, she runs in gets the pistol she has never shot and goes back out. Shots misses the skunk and ends up being sprayed in the face saving her dog. Skunk runs off the winner of round 1. Well needless to say I still give her a pretty hard time LOL.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

I googled "antivenom". Here is a very interesting and informative site about antivenom. http://www.ci.beaumont.ca.us/index.asp?NID=194
Don't quote me, but I think in the southwest (for example) there is one antivenom that treats many different rattlesnakes, but not all, which is why they ask for a description of the snake, but don't require that info inorder to administer antivenom. If I am understanding correctly, there is a different antivenom for certain types of snakes indiginous to different regions, and something altogether different for bites from exotics (non-native species).


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## Will Kline (Jan 10, 2008)

Patrick Cheatham said:


> Talk about being sprayed by a skunk. Poor girl I work with heard her dog barking like crazy in the backyard one night. She goes out to find it cornered by a skunk. So she can't save the dog, she runs in gets the pistol she has never shot and goes back out. Shots misses the skunk and ends up being sprayed in the face saving her dog. Skunk runs off the winner of round 1. Well needless to say I still give her a pretty hard time LOL.


Now that would just SUCK!!!!! #-o She needs to get herself to the range and get some practice in!


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Something most people don't know, including most veterinarians. Skunk spray can be toxic to dogs. Hounds have died from it and, as a terrier man, I've seen a couple of terriers that have died. 
Up close and in closed quarters like an earth den, the spray can create a toxic shock to the liver of a dog. Fine the next day and a few days later they drop dead. When we've had dogs sprayed in the ground we get them on an IV fast. (ringers solution) 
Some dogs learn to stay away from them after being sprayed. Unfortunately, terriers, being terriers, often then feel the need to go to war with every skunk in the world. I've seen good working dogs retired because of this "need".
Same with snakes and porcupines with the "going to war" thing.


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## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

The Mojave Green Rattlesnake is so dangerous because his venom is both a neurotoxin and a musculotoxin. 

Some dogs find snakes to be unpleasant and some find them quite interesting. Some that have been bitten are terrified of repeating that experience and some are intent in killing every snake they come across. 

There are a couple of reasons that dogs usually survive snakebites, probably the most important is that snakes are capable of "dry biting," biting without injecting any venom at all. Or they can dump every drop they have on board. It depends on how threatened they feel and how pissed off they are. A snake whose vision is impaired by a soon-to-occur or just-occurred shedding will probably dump all he's got. 

If you're going to snake proof it's best done by teaching the dog to fear (and therefore avoid) all three phases of the snakes, the sight, the smell and the sound (for those snakes, like rattlers) that make noise. 

This has to be done carefully, as the highest level of stim that an Ecollar affords, has to be used to get learning as quickly as possible and to have it last as long as possible. I know of a dog that fears rattlesnakes AND butterflies! This is one area of using an Ecollar where timing IS critical. 

I'm not a fan of pulling the snake's fangs as one poster mentioned, it's probably painful for them and as was said, they grow back and you don't know how far along that process is. I prefer to tape their mouths shut with some electrical tape, being careful not to injure them when removing it. 

I've done a couple of snake proofing clinics but hate doing them. 

I think it's important to use snakes that are common in the area that the dog works in. Knowing how specific some dogs are about scent, ONLY recognizing the total scent picture, I don't care for the method that has the trainer using his pet snakes. While all rattlesnakes (for example)may have a common odor I think it's better to use "local" snakes for that training. 

Using a command such as a "leave it" works well (as long as the dog is properly trained) but can't be counted on to keep the dogs safe from snakes. If the dog encounters a snake out of sight of the handler, even if it's just for a few seconds, the handler may not see them meet up. if the dog decides to investigate, after all that new smell might be food, he could be bitten. 

There is a vaccine, but it's relatively new on the market and so far (I think, it may have changed) only provides protection against rattlesnakes. But vaccines have problems of their own. Some use it thinking that they're in remote areas doing searches and it may be a day's walk-out to get to the car, to get to the vet. Even if the vaccine has been used, the


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Bob Scott said:


> Something most people don't know, including most veterinarians. Skunk spray can be toxic to dogs. Hounds have died from it and, as a terrier man, I've seen a couple of terriers that have died.
> Up close and in closed quarters like an earth den, the spray can create a toxic shock to the liver of a dog. Fine the next day and a few days later they drop dead. When we've had dogs sprayed in the ground we get them on an IV fast. (ringers solution)
> Some dogs learn to stay away from them after being sprayed. Unfortunately, terriers, being terriers, often then feel the need to go to war with every skunk in the world. I've seen good working dogs retired because of this "need".
> Same with snakes and porcupines with the "going to war" thing.



Bob, 
Excellent, thank you for pointing this out as I was not aware of this. 
Though we have skunks, my main worries were rattlesnakes and badgers. Now, skunks will be added to the list.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Carol, the first time I heard about this happening to other dogs I was supprised. With terriers it's the concentration when down in a den tunnel. 
Obviously though it can happen above ground also.


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## angelo lombardi (Feb 26, 2008)

I have on the average of two encounters with rattlers with my dogs a year, last year me and my freind lost our best stud dog on his snake infested proporty, he heard barking and grabbed the shot gun, when he got outside there was a Mojave snake sticking out bulls mouth, he ran over and pulled it out and got bull inside, my freind is a Vet Tec but Bull was dead before he could work on him.

In the past my dogs on trail are easy to call off but at home the place they protect it can be another story, and now my new little FEL terriers are starting to hunt and thats a hole new problem, I have had to many close calls.

I have a 6 foot bull snake on my proporty that I have named Fred (WoW do they look and sound like rattlers at times, scare the hell out of me) last year I heard barking grabbed my M9 ran outside but it was only Fred coming threw the fence, I noticed that the two dogs that alerted were stand off, and worked perfect to keeping there distance, 

this year when Fred or one of his relitives pop up I will use it on my dogs with my Dogtra 2502. 

things I have learned, keep debri, vegitation and moister, to minn around your home, rodent control ( this year I will mesh my perimeter fence) 

walking down dirt roads I have had very close calls of rattlers stretch out looking like a stick


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## Kayce Cover (Oct 30, 2007)

Very interesting, Angelo. Sorry to hear about your dog!

Regards,
Kayce


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## Tommy O'Hanlon (Feb 21, 2008)

Bloody hell this thread makes me cringe as we don't have snakes over here, don't think i could cope
Tommy


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Tommy O'Hanlon said:


> Bloody hell this thread makes me cringe as we don't have snakes over here, don't think i could cope
> Tommy



So I take it by your name that maybe we need St Patrick to come over to the states? But then for the most part, snakes are a good thing.......................


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## Will Kline (Jan 10, 2008)

Nancy Jocoy said:


> So I take it by your name that maybe we need St Patrick to come over to the states? But then for the most part, snakes are a good thing.......................


Ha Ha, I was thinking the exact same thing before I read your post!


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## Jack O'Neill (Feb 12, 2008)

We used Lime around the back yard and it keeps snakes out they don't like in on their belly's. We are in NC near a creek and Water Moccasins are heavy. So all my life every sumer my dad used to use a fertilizer spreader and run a 4 inch wide line along the perimeter in our back yard (about a half an acer). Then he would re do it every few months, Now it will kill the grass in that strip but it is worth it to have a worry free back yard. It also gave the added effect of a visual barrier for our dogs not to cross. They will only cross it if one of us are with them. 

Now before everyone runs out and buys lime I have no science to back this up, it could be a old farmers Urban legend my granddad did it, my dad did it, and I do it and I can never remember a snake in the yard. :grin:


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Jack O'Neill said:


> We used Lime around the back yard and it keeps snakes out they don't like in on their belly's. We are in NC near a creek and Water Moccasins are heavy. So all my life every sumer my dad used to use a fertilizer spreader and run a 4 inch wide line along the perimeter in our back yard (about a half an acer). Then he would re do it every few months, Now it will kill the grass in that strip but it is worth it to have a worry free back yard. It also gave the added effect of a visual barrier for our dogs not to cross. They will only cross it if one of us are with them.
> 
> Now before everyone runs out and buys lime I have no science to back this up, it could be a old farmers Urban legend my granddad did it, my dad did it, and I do it and I can never remember a snake in the yard. :grin:


I've used it to keep hippos out of my yard. Works like a charm! :grin: ;-) 
My suspicions are that it's an old wives tail. I've seen a ton of copperheads and rattlesnakes sunning on limestone bluffs.


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## Bill Langan (Mar 9, 2008)

In all the years I spent keeping and collecting snakes/reptiles, Ive never ever heard of a "poisonous snake" what happens you lick the snake and get sick? ... but I did keep a few VENOMOUS! species over the years;-) 

sorry couldn't help myself :smile:


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## Bill Langan (Mar 9, 2008)

copy/past
Venomous snakes are often said to be poisonous, although this is not the correct term, as venmos and poisons are different. Poisons can be absorbed by the body, such as through the skin or digestive system, while venoms must first be introduced directly into tissues or the blood stream through mechanical means. It is, for example, therefore harmless to drink snake venom as long as there are no lacerations inside the mouth or digestive tract.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venomous_snake


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Bill Langan said:


> In all the years I spent keeping and collecting snakes/reptiles, Ive never ever heard of a "poisonous snake" what happens you lick the snake and get sick? ... but I did keep a few VENOMOUS! species over the years;-)
> 
> sorry couldn't help myself :smile:


:lol: :lol: :lol: You are a funny guy!


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## Kayce Cover (Oct 30, 2007)

Bill Langan said:


> In all the years I spent keeping and collecting snakes/reptiles, Ive never ever heard of a "poisonous snake" what happens you lick the snake and get sick? ... but I did keep a few VENOMOUS! species over the years;-)
> 
> sorry couldn't help myself :smile:



 Point well made. I love amphibians and had a bunch of California Newts when I was a kid - even got some to breed and hatch. I used to handle those rascals and spend hours peering into their water. Only found out recently that they are literally one of the most poisonous animals around (in the sense that if you lick them you will die). Some miners were found dead after drinking coffee wherein they had scooped up water from a stream, with a newt in it, apparently not noticing that fact and then all died together over a cup of java. So dogs benefit from learning to leave frogs, toads and salamanders alone.

Regards,
Kayce


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