# It's the Breed!



## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

How many times have you heard that it's the breed of dog that is bad? The Dobie, Rottie, German Shepherd...all are bad and need to be classified as such.

The issue as I see it, the dog breed is fine, the breeding or genetics are screwed up! I can make a case for anything and make the data support it! So can anyone with a "cause." First and foremost, it isn't the breed of dog which is bad, it's the handle/owner and other environmental issues which messes up the issue. Sure, some "breeds" need to be reviewed, but it boils down to how this cute ball of fluff has been raised. Just like kids!

I finished a carrier in education, if every kid who couldn't get basic math was labeled as a retard or shitter...educational boards would get a new colon for their actions! Dogs are largely what YOU make them. Those who label Pitts, GSD, or Dobies as bad don't have a clue...look beyond your bubble!!

Before lables are attached to any breed or dog, look at the conditions which made it. Look at the handlers, breeders, environmental condioners, and all the lack there of......then label IF YOU DARE!


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

I'll play devil's advocate, and state that probably a bit of both is true. How many black guys can you find on the olympic swim team, or white guys in a NBA game? Generalizations are made, regardless whether everyone generally agrees. Everyone against BSL seems to agree that wolf hybrids are a bad idea, without having any regard to the individual wolf (as if they're all the same). "Job fitness" is important, and training methods and temperament preference and so on. To be honest, I wouldn't want to use a border collie in schutzhund, or a Neo Mastiff as a narc-detection K9. Making the "best of what you have" is not the same as "applying what you can offer to the best of it's potential".


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## Candy Eggert (Oct 28, 2008)

Howard Gaines III said:


> I finished a carrier in education,


Oh Lordy...genetics or environment?!?!? :-\"


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Candy Eggert said:


> Oh Lordy...genetics or environment?!?!? :-\"


Hopefully, Howard wasn't teaching SPELLING.:lol:

Or is it SPILLING, Howard.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Could it be another tiff with the local service garage ? :grin:

sorry Howard :^o


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

Oh, career! I couldn't tell what he was saying. So does that mean getting a new "colon" wasn't for the shitters?


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## Amy Swaby (Jul 16, 2008)

Daryl Ehret said:


> I'll play devil's advocate, and state that probably a bit of both is true. How many black guys can you find on the olympic swim team, or white guys in a NBA game? Generalizations are made, regardless whether everyone generally agrees. Everyone against BSL seems to agree that wolf hybrids are a bad idea, without having any regard to the individual wolf (as if they're all the same).


Wolf hybrids are a bad idea because they are WILD ANIMALS, nothing to do with breed but species. You're comparing apples and oranges here. I will advise for people to NOT own a wolf hybrid for the same reason I would advise anyone without the knowledge space and facilities to house a WILD ANIMAL.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Lee H Sternberg said:


> Hopefully, Howard wasn't teaching SPELLING.:lol:
> 
> Or is it SPILLING, Howard.


Well, I must be as daft as he is because I thought it was a new name for an old profession! Happens in Europe a lot, i.e. personnel or staff are human resources, as though anyone would employ donkeys! Come to tthink of it, there are numerous asses around.........

Howard, guess you must be a carrier pigeon of sorts :lol:


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Gillian Schuler said:


> Well, I must be as daft as he is because I thought it was a new name for an old profession! Happens in Europe a lot, i.e. personnel or staff are human resources, as though anyone would employ donkeys! Come to tthink of it, there are numerous asses around.........
> 
> Howard, guess you must be a carrier pigeon of sorts :lol:


 Retired shop teachers are ALWAYS given a degree of slack for spelling. Mestakes never happen with me...they are well planned and cause folks to try and find fault with my perfect self...and humble too! 8-[


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Hi Howard,

You mean if I find any, I can keep them :smile:

Cheers
Gill


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

Amy Swaby said:


> Wolf hybrids are a bad idea because they are WILD ANIMALS, nothing to do with breed but species. You're comparing apples and oranges here. I will advise for people to NOT own a wolf hybrid for the same reason I would advise anyone without the knowledge space and facilities to house a WILD ANIMAL.


Hate to break it to you, but wild wolves and domestic canines _are the same species_! The major difference being, dogs are more retarded than wolves.


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## Anne Pridemore (Mar 20, 2010)

As I mostly work with Rotts, GSDs, Dobies, Danes, Pits, Mals, Mastiffs, and mixes of these breeds -- I rarely find that the DOG has an issue that cannot be fixed with training. In the last 7 years and countless dogs, 2 had a medical/genetic reason for their behavior. (Thyroid and Brain damage from oxygen deprivation as a puppy) Training with the help of medication still managed to make these two into normal functioning dogs.

I don't buy that all dogs of any breed are bad. I think all of it needs to be addressed on a case by case basis. From what I have seen the owner/handler/trainer is often the one to blame for the behavior issues.

In any group of animals you have some that just aren’t wired right. We have serial killers and all sorts of whack jobs. But I think people are too ready to toss in the towel and say "un-trainable dangerous dog" because one of many available methods didn't work. 

I feel the same is true of positive breed feedback. Not all Danes are loving couch potatoes, not all Mals are 100% driven, not all Pits love people, not all GSDs are super with kids... and so on. While breeds may develop a certain trait and temperament it in no way says ALL the dogs of XYZ breed are this way.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

I agree with you Anne. Like people, every dog is an individual so to speak. Where we do differ is that you are willing to see the good in most any dog. To me, resolving the issues with many dogs is just not worth my time when there are good dogs around that don't need rehabilitating. To each his own is the way I look at it.


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## Anne Pridemore (Mar 20, 2010)

Don Turnipseed said:


> I agree with you Anne. Like people, every dog is an individual so to speak. Where we do differ is that you are willing to see the good in most any dog. To me, resolving the issues with many dogs is just not worth my time when there are good dogs around that don't need rehabilitating. To each his own is the way I look at it.


I agree with you. Many people do not have the time, ability, and/or passion to deal with rehab with many normal happy dogs ready for homes. I respect the people that know it is not for them so long as they understand that I'm not giving up. I've got a soft spot for these kinds of dogs, maybe because of my own rotten past, in the end I help the ones I know I can. In my head it makes the world a better place to save any life. 8)


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

I can appreciate that Anne. One of my real short comings is an extreme lack of patience. Never had kids because of it and had a number of wives because of it. Stayed well clear of training dogs for the same reason. Nothing would wig me out more that to give a dog a treat and not have it do what I was bribing it to do. Then I watched Dan work one of my dogs. The dog responded quickly and amazingly well. No treats and very little talking. The lack of verbalization needed with the method is what keeps me in check and not ending up using any of a number of expletives rather than the dogs name. I could never work dogs with problems and have it do the dog or myself any good.


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

I can't believe no one disputed my stereotyping remark about retarded dogs. Of course, some breeds are more retarded than others.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Daryl, I have met a vet tech from the Chicago area with a Sch 3 border collie.


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

Now waitaminnit, I didn't say it couldn't be done. I was just describing preferred suitability for the task. A monkey could get a schutzhund 3.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: I can't believe no one disputed my stereotyping remark about retarded dogs. Of course, some breeds are more retarded than others.

Researchers tend to be the tards in these experiments. There was no mention of the age of the dogs involved, or what their upbringing was. That test mentioned is a puppy test that I used to use.

The lack of information about the animals used proves once again, from the safety of academia, there is no one there to cry bullshit.


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

And really, their whole basis for the article is that the wolf does it's problem solving independantly of humans. There's nothing tarded about a dog that's resourceful enough to get human cooperation, like in this story I related.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

IF rehab were the fix-all, then when will it be used in the prison systems? Oh they do...the electric chair! :-k


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## Anne Pridemore (Mar 20, 2010)

Howard Gaines III said:


> IF rehab were the fix-all, then when will it be used in the prison systems? Oh they do...the electric chair! :-k


Humans and dogs are not the same animal. Anyone who relates the human conditon to dog behavior is insulting the dog. 

And no one said rehab was a fix all. I can tell you in 7 years I have not failed a dog yet, but I have known many trainers who have. Some dogs cannot be saved and I'm sure one day I will come accross one.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Anne Pridemore said:


> As I mostly work with Rotts, GSDs, Dobies, Danes, Pits, Mals, Mastiffs, and mixes of these breeds -- I rarely find that the DOG has an issue that cannot be fixed with training. In the last 7 years and countless dogs, 2 had a medical/genetic reason for their behavior. (Thyroid and Brain damage from oxygen deprivation as a puppy) Training with the help of medication still managed to make these two into normal functioning dogs.
> 
> I don't buy that all dogs of any breed are bad. I think all of it needs to be addressed on a case by case basis. From what I have seen the owner/handler/trainer is often the one to blame for the behavior issues.
> 
> ...


Just for my clarification, are we talking about the suitability of a breed as a performance/working animal or the suitability as a good pet? With the two being not necessarily mutually exclusive, of course, just wondering since I think the thread started on the former and is going towards the latter.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Anne Pridemore said:


> Humans and dogs are not the same animal. Anyone who relates the human conditon to dog behavior is insulting the dog.
> 
> And no one said rehab was a fix all. I can tell you in 7 years I have not failed a dog yet, but I have known many trainers who have. Some dogs cannot be saved and I'm sure one day I will come accross one.


 In a "throw it away" society, it's easy to cast a puppy or dog off and start over. All it takes is time and money. For those who can rehab and do it with a high degree of long term success...then GREAT! Some critters are not worth the time and effort for many reasons. And some people NEED locked away for life, given two meals a day, and kept from harming the general public. 

You can trim a bad apple to the core and end up with little to show for your efforts!


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Anne Pridemore said:


> Humans and dogs are not the same animal. Anyone who relates the human conditon to dog behavior is insulting the dog.
> 
> And no one said rehab was a fix all. I can tell you in 7 years I have not failed a dog yet, but I have known many trainers who have. Some dogs cannot be saved and I'm sure one day I will come accross one.


Why would you want to save every dog you came across ?


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

Howard Gaines III said:


> *Dogs are largely what YOU make them.* Those who label Pitts, GSD, or Dobies as bad don't have a clue...look beyond your bubble!!
> 
> Before lables are attached to any breed or dog, look at the conditions which made it. *Look at the handlers, breeders, environmental condioners*, and all the lack there of......then label IF YOU DARE!


While what you've stated is probably true to an extent, I don't think it's as entirely true as we're led to believe. I've raised enough german shepherds to see how much I DIDN'T influence in their making. Many were very very different from each other, and because so, I'd guess not as much a reflection of their handling and environment as you might insist. I'd even moreso attribute many characteristics of their temperaments with their direct ancestry, in my personal opinion.


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## Anne Pridemore (Mar 20, 2010)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Just for my clarification, are we talking about the suitability of a breed as a performance/working animal or the suitability as a good pet? With the two being not necessarily mutually exclusive, of course, just wondering since I think the thread started on the former and is going towards the latter.


As this was in general conversation I took it as dogs as a whole regaurdless of working or not. That may or may not have been the OPs intent. 



maggie fraser said:


> Why would you want to save every dog you came across ?


I have not saved every dog I have come across - if I did that I would have 100s of craigslist dogs in my house right now. In 7 years I have worked with many behavior issue client dogs to keep them in homes. I have fostered and trained for rescues that asked for my help with "last chance" dogs. Personally I have taken in and rescued 6 medical rehabs, 10 normal dogs just needing a new home, and 7 behavior rehabs. Of those 22 dogs that I rescued out of my own pocket 5 are my personal dogs.

I am an animal lover first and a trainer second. I understand that most will never want to "waist" the time, money, and effort on a "broken" dog - I just ask them to respect that that is what I feel I should do with my life. I'm even in school to be a Vet Tech so that I can help in more ways than just training/foster/rescue. We all have a calling in life, this is mine.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Thanks for the reply, I am not being disrespectful just curious, my calling is as a zoologist lol.

You say you have worked with many behaviour issue clients, does sorting the dog out at the time actually help them for very long ? Reason I ask is it's most often the numpty owners and not the dogs that need the sorting out, I often wonder what the point is.


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## Anne Pridemore (Mar 20, 2010)

maggie fraser said:


> You say you have worked with many behaviour issue clients, does sorting the dog out at the time actually help them for very long ? Reason I ask is it's most often the numpty owners and not the dogs that need the sorting out, I often wonder what the point is.


 
So far I have only had one client not follow through with behavior modification. The dog did end up with me. I finished his training, worked out his issue, and found him a home that would treat him like a dog and not a toy/child/little prince. Owners are almost always the issue, but once you have an owner at their wits end and show them an improving dog almost all are willing to work hard.

What I see most often is puppy/beginner clients not doing their homework and letting everything slide. That is when you get the follow up call months later that Fluffy bit the mailman. :roll: If only people would train for prevention instead of cure.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

maggie fraser said:


> ...my calling is as a zoologist lol...


 Why not just say TEACHER? See fewer letters...and does the same thing!!!


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

We're all teachers! ........of dogs Well, in my case, _sometimes the teacher learns more from the student_.


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