# very sharp knpv dogs?



## Michael Murphy

i have been doing some research theoretical plus practical and im realising that some knpv lines or dogs are really sharp compared to others. and when i mean sharp im talking hair trigger reactions, like a tiny bit of eye contact and foot stomp and the dog is in full on aggression. 
is it "common knowledge" that some lines (and which lines) are producing this type of dog consistently , while others lines are producing less reactive dogs?

(to make it clear i have only seen 3 malinois (two were young, one was mature) and they were sharp. i havent seen the "calmer" ones but talked to people and read about them.)


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## Joby Becker

Michael Murphy said:


> i have been doing some research theoretical plus practical and im realising that some knpv lines or dogs are really sharp compared to others. and when i mean sharp im talking hair trigger reactions, like a tiny bit of eye contact and foot stomp and the dog is in full on aggression.
> is it "common knowledge" that some lines (and which lines) are producing this type of dog consistently , while others lines are producing less reactive dogs?
> 
> (to make it clear i have only seen 3 malinois (two were young, one was mature) and they were sharp. i havent seen the "calmer" ones but talked to people and read about them.)


Michael, do you know how much the training and environment affected those dogs, it is very possible to lower or raise those thresholds with most dogs with training, what you saw may have not been natural to the dog at all, and could also have been promoted. and in other dogs, there may be much more control put on them, that would raise the threshold.

In my experiences talking to aussies, seems like a more aggressive dog is preferred over there. 

and were the* 3* malinois you saw from KNPV lines, if so what lines..


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## Michael Murphy

thats the thing the female was raised without much work done to it at all , just some prey/play with a tug (so i was told) and was kept for breeding for her lines etc. i asked the guy can i just test the dog a bit. i wanted to test how quickly she would recognise a threat, i did'nt want to do too much cause i don't know the guy , so i just made some strong eye contact and moved my foot quickly towards her with a very soft "stomp" at the end of the movement. i was about 2 metres from the dog who was tied up. i was expecting the dog just to stand up ( it was laying on the ground) and look at me, with her ears forward but instead she went absolutely "crazy" barking growling snarling, teeth showing, tail right up (the fur on her back had stayed down i checked for that). if i was close enough i would have probably got a few teeth in me.
i wont name the direct dogs the malinois had in them but they were knpv lines. main dogs in the pedigree are (note sure if all three were the same) ringo, bono, breston, rambo etc


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## Joby Becker

Michael Murphy said:


> thats the thing the female was raised without much work done to it at all , just some prey/play with a tug (so i was told) and was kept for breeding for her lines etc. i asked the guy can i just test the dog a bit. i wanted to test how quickly she would recognise a threat, i did'nt want to do too much cause i don't know the guy , so i just made some strong eye contact and moved my foot quickly towards her with a very soft "stomp" at the end of the movement. i was about 2 metres from the dog who was tied up. i was expecting the dog just to stand up ( it was laying on the ground) and look at me, with her ears forward but instead she went absolutely "crazy" barking growling snarling, teeth showing, tail right up (the fur on her back had stayed down i checked for that). if i was close enough i would have probably got a few teeth in me.
> i wont name the direct dogs the malinois had in them but they were knpv lines. main dogs in the pedigree are (note sure if all three were the same) ringo, bono, breston, rambo etc


the dog being tied up is also a factor here, as was the location, etc etc.


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## Dave Colborn

I think with all things, you have to think about what you haven't seen, not just what is in front of you. Go see a few hundred dogs. Then make an opinion. Then keep an open mind and expect that opinion to be challenged. If you are open to challenge and able to support your view, you keep that view. If you can't support it, you either find more evidence to support it, or believe something new.


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## Joby Becker

Michael Murphy said:


> (the fur on her back had stayed down i checked for that).


if the fur had stood up, what assumption would you have made, just curious?


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## Michael Murphy

^ usually it represents some fear or nerves.

but im also hearing this from some breeders. that some lines can be pretty sharp if not socialised well enough, and have a very quick trigger etc.

yea i havent seen a lot of dogs dave (i said three to make it clear) thats why im asking on the forum if this is so.....


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## Maureen A Osborn

^it actually depends....hair up can also mean high excitement not nerves....not all KNPV lines are sharp and civil....ie, Rudie Pegge is a more social less civil line of DS....Arko Kikkert, Carlos Vos, way civil and dominant...same with the mal KNPV lines...you need to research each dog and see what they produce, what their littermates produce, etc, etc.... its not cut and dry that all KNPV lines are sharp and civil


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## Michael Murphy

^ yea im not saying all lines, i just herd some. i just have never seen a dog react at that level, to such little threat and so quickly. i know arko and carlos produce aggressive dogs, but how reactive are they ?


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## Maureen A Osborn

my girl is an Arko granddaughter and she is 7 months and very reactive, starting to slow down a little though....takes pateince and a lot of training (making sure to work her in prey)


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## Joby Becker

you eyefukk my adult dog and stomp you foot at her, in most situations, I imagine there is a good chance you might get bitten, but I would not call her a really super reative dog personally.


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## Dave Colborn

Michael Murphy said:


> yea i havent seen a lot of dogs dave (i said three to make it clear) thats why im asking on the forum if this is so.....


 
When I read what you write, it sounds as if you are heavily opinionated at this point. Not looking for answers.



> im realising that some knpv lines or dogs are really sharp compared to others.


 
your test group is just three dogs? I applaud your enthusiasm. Go to Holland and see it first hand. It's on my bucket list for sure...


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## Michael Murphy

i have opinions on some things and on others i don't. on this particular thread i don't have any opinions only observations and questions


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## Maureen A Osborn

^lol, ya, I agree(oops, was in respone to Joby, but other posts gon inbetween)....but my girl would react to just people walking by at first if they were looking at her from a distance, now they can walk by and even stand next to me without her reacting, unless they move too quickly towards me, etc.......my Katy has some, but not all KNPV (was Rudie Pegge granddaughter) and was not sharp or civil at all. SHe was a dog that was pure sport....the one I have now is more of a real life type dog


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## Michael Murphy

Maureen A Osborn said:


> ^lol, ya, I agree(oops, was in respone to Joby, but other posts gon inbetween)....but my girl would react to just people walking by at first if they were looking at her from a distance, now they can walk by and even stand next to me without her reacting, unless they move too quickly towards me, etc......*.my Katy has some, but not all KNPV (was Rudie Pegge granddaughter) and was not sharp or civil at all. SHe was a dog that was pure sport....the one I have now is more of a real life type dog*




i love your explanations :-D


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## andreas broqvist

In My mind most Malis wuld reakt almost like that. If you eyeball them and stomp other they get you becaus of the Quick movment, ore in agretion becaus you eyeball them  if they are tied upp you get alott of frustration becaus they cant get anyting out of your movment. Most Malis I tryed in a suit I just nead to Move fast and they Will get me wher ever they can.


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## Haz Othman

Maureen A Osborn said:


> ^lol, ya, I agree(oops, was in respone to Joby, but other posts gon inbetween)....but my girl would react to just people walking by at first if they were looking at her from a distance, now they can walk by and even stand next to me without her reacting, unless they move too quickly towards me, etc.......my Katy has some, but not all KNPV (was Rudie Pegge granddaughter) and was not sharp or civil at all. SHe was a dog that was pure sport....the one I have now is more of a real life type dog


Curious dont you find that level of reactivity to be fear based? If I was told about your dog reacting like that to people without any knowledge of lines, or context to the discussion I would just assume it was fear based aggression. Now Im not very educated on Dutch lines so is this considered a desirable trait? For me I despise any kind of fear biting or reactivity I like my dogs to be safe around people yet be able to respond to threats when warranted (doesnt everyone :?). 
I get that different dogs are more easily stimulated into active aggression then others but at some level when a mere look at a distance creates an aggressive response is that not fear based?

Im not slamming your dog, I have a preconcieved opinion on this type of behavior and I realize it may be incorrect. In which case I would like to be educated.


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## Maureen A Osborn

Haz, in some part, it may be lack of confidence, she is just 7 months old..as her confidence level grows, the sharpness will level out...but.it is also inherent in the Arko Kikkert lines...I took her to petsmart and home depot today and no reactivity at all, actually allowed strangers to pet her. So part of it yes,may be a confidence issue, but alsomay bethe lack of trust/dislike of strangers. When I got her at 12 weeks, she was not reactive, became reactive while she was teething, and now is settling back down again....BUT, like Jody said, you eyefukk or stomp your feet at her, she is going to go after you, bottom line. However, I also tend to believe it may be more the dislike of strangers vs the confidence thing, cause environmentally she is very strong. I can get ehr to climb on, in around, under anything without question. Unsure footing, height, nothing bothers her. Neither do strange dogs, she wants to play with them all.


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## Matt Vandart

Maureen A Osborn said:


> Haz, in some part, it may be lack of confidence, she is just 7 months old..as her confidence level grows, the sharpness will level out...but.it is also inherent in the Arko Kikkert lines...I took her to petsmart and home depot today and no reactivity at all, actually allowed strangers to pet her. So part of it yes,may be a confidence issue, but alsomay bethe lack of trust/dislike of strangers. When I got her at 12 weeks, she was not reactive, became reactive while she was teething, and now is settling back down again....BUT, like Jody said, you eyefukk or stomp your feet at her, she is going to go after you, bottom line. However, I also tend to believe it may be more the dislike of strangers vs the confidence thing, cause environmentally she is very strong. I can get ehr to climb on, in around, under anything without question. Unsure footing, height, nothing bothers her. Neither do strange dogs, she wants to play with them all.


Your dog sounds exactly like my Mal puppy, I also think it is sharpness but with a bit of dominance mixed in.


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## Maureen A Osborn

Oh, she is a lot of fun and a challenge, but i enjoy it. We are having a KNPV seminar next weekend here in Texas and I will speak in depth to the guy Mario that is coming in about these lines. I understand a lot of people that havent dealt with this lines think that sharpness is due to fear, but IMHO, I dont think that is always the case, or at least not 100%, maybe a small %, depending on the dog and the lines. I have a dogo argentino that is fear aggression, and it is way different than what i am seeing with my DS. Michael, I uploaded a bunch of pics in the DS catagory, where you can see her environmental soundness.


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## Matt Vandart

I think sharpness can be fear based, but I believe sharpness best described as a low threshold to stimuli with an aggressive response.
This can come from but not exclusive to fear or dominance or even just pigheadedness.
A dog can express sharpness if it has a low threshold to pain and has it's tail stepped on.


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## Maureen A Osborn

ya, def agree Matt. Like I said, the eye thing, stalking around, or trying to take the equipment will elicit a defense response, she will drop the equipment and go after the decoy.


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## Matt Vandart

lol,definately sounds like my Mal and one of my dobes.


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## Haz Othman

Interesting thanks for the info. Any vids of her up?


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## Joby Becker

I think there are many young dogs that are going through a "weird" period, that maybe are not socialized enough, or just not social dogs that can act up like Maureen is saying her dog does.

In my experience, which is NOT tons, but some, many of these dogs even out as adults, and some of them you can just have a little "talk" with them, and they can straighten themselves right the fukk out, even almost immediately.

same with other kinds of dogs.

I asked a similar questions about Asko von der Lutter GSD and some dogs coming down from him..

here is response from Stefan...



> Asko was one of the top producer from the last years. he was not easy, not social. outside he was real dominant. a lot of people want a strong dog,high dominance and best no one else can touch him and must protect the family.
> 
> *but no one can life with the time where this kind of dog is growing,this dominance is not a sign of being strong it have grow out of being not sure with things. most of these kind of dogs get early sold because we can not live with this, but we can live with the end product.
> 
> asko for sure have produce kind of these dogs, at the beginning you hate them for his behavior and at the end you love him. i would do it again.*


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## Maureen A Osborn

on my youtube channel...there may be one or 2 of bitework...need to take some at training...her name is Melee, there is another DS named Katy also that I had that I lost to cancer in Jan. http://www.youtube.com/user/abndogo

ya, I have heard that with the Arko lines Joby, they even out as adults....she is a possessive sh*t right now, not with me and my husband, but others. SHe is definately a challenge and a piece of work, but I LOVE what she has to offer and I am sure I will love her even more as she matures


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## Kadi Thingvall

Michael Murphy said:


> thats the thing the female was raised without much work done to it at all , just some prey/play with a tug (so i was told) and was kept for breeding for her lines etc.


A lot of a dogs training takes place away from a training field, away from the "formal training" session. Unless the dog was raised in a bubble, she's had training, if only encouraging behaviors they want, and discouraging behaviors they don't want.

Give 2 people a puppy that shows some sharpness, and just in how they raise the pup 1 may be social as an adult, or at least socially neutral, the other may be ready to kill anything that glances at it.

I have friends who's dogs appear "sharp", "civil" whatever you want to call it if you get anywhere near their vehicle, the dogs go ballistic, barking, slamming into their crates, etc. They like this behavior, or at least allow it, and each new dog learns it from the others. My dogs on the other hand appear the completely opposite, if you walk by my vehicle they will look at you, then go back to doing whatever they were doing. Why, because I detest a dog who fires up because someone happened to walk by, unless they are actually reaching into my vehicle it's really none of the dogs business what the person is doing, and they don't need to fire off at every person within 30 feet. Take all the dogs out of the vehicles, and then you can get a read on which ones are social, which ones are dominant pricks, which ones are sharp, etc.


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## Doug Wright 2

This is a great thread and has made me question my own views on the topic. I have a very social 3 yr old male that during puppyhood into adolescents I thought wasn’t sharp enough. I could and still can take this dog anywhere. As a puppy he would just assume be your friend than bark at you. Now with the help of training and the mail man, he is a lot sharper. He is stranger neutral and usual leads in with his nose first. But if someone was to give him the stink-eye, he fires off pretty quick – there is no warning growl. Sucker has caught me off guard a few times and had to jerk him back. He’s the same way with other dogs around his size. He becomes very aggressive and has to be recalled to the heel position. Like Matt early in the thread, I don’t see his hackles come up. I was under the impression that he was expressing dominance. I question that now. I need someone that can read dogs check mine out and tell me what I’m seeing. 

From what I’ve experienced and read, “sharpness” can be either increased or decreased through training. It can be a result of socialization (or lack of); a product of its usual environment (home life); whether or not it’s performing in a new environment (day, night, location, threat (which I would link to stress)). I’m still on the fence whether a “sharp dog” is displaying defense or dominance. I only have my dog to watch and need more. I don’t have an opinion yet on whether “sharpness” is passed down genetically or if the propensity exists in a specific breed. 

Kadi – Like you, I hate listening to a barking dog while it’s in a car. In fact – I’m not impressed at all. My dog was trained to become aggressive when someone comes up to my truck (that whole car-jacking thing). He used to pull that aggressive crap every time a person went by. So much so that I regretted having it trained. But now that he has aged somewhat and has experienced a few hundred people go by, I think his mind is in the right spot now. He still lets loose if a passerby stops to check him or the truck out though. I’m good with that – that’s his job.


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## Haz Othman

Its just that everything I learned to this point is that if you see reactive aggression for no particular reason (someone just looks at the dog from far away) the dog has insecurities that will always be there to some degree. As in you can never really trust the dog because it may take a piece out of sombody for no good reason. So is this a general rule with the exception of a few dutch lines? 

Joby was the dog stephan was reffering to also reactive? He says dominant but what does that mean?
Every reactive dog I have met is basically a nerve bag, a lot of bark and will bite if the target is small or acts afraid but when push comes to shove they can be easily run. I just took that for a rule of thumb. So is this wrong?


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## Joby Becker

Haz Othman said:


> Its just that everything I learned to this point is that if you see reactive aggression for no particular reason (someone just looks at the dog from far away) the dog has insecurities that will always be there to some degree. As in you can never really trust the dog because it may take a piece out of sombody for no good reason. So is this a general rule with the exception of a few dutch lines?
> 
> Joby was the dog stephan was reffering to also reactive? He says dominant but what does that mean?
> Every reactive dog I have met is basically a nerve bag, a lot of bark and will bite if the target is small or acts afraid but when push comes to shove they can be easily run. I just took that for a rule of thumb. So is this wrong?


what is your definition of reactive?


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## Maureen A Osborn

Haz, you also have to remember that pups/young dogs go through "insecure" phases, which are totally normal and do not necessarily predict that the dog will grow up to become a "nerve bag." Here is a good article from Von falconer about puppies 1st night to first year http://www.vonfalconer.com/articles/2/article/3


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## Joby Becker

I think it may just have a lot to do with internal conflict with the young dog in some cases, that the dog is not sure of what he should do, how he should react, or what is expected of him

sort of like a young dog showing social aggression, or dominance that he is not yet mature enough to back up. He may have urges, but is not mature enough to make sense out of them, or use them to any real degree.

I think that dogs that are not social dogs by nature, will be more apt to go through some of what is being talked about here.


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## Meg O'Donovan

Maureen A Osborn;404274Here is a good article from Von falconer about puppies 1st night to first year [URL said:


> http://www.vonfalconer.com/articles/2/article/3[/URL]


Liked this link.


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## Haz Othman

Joby Becker said:


> what is your definition of reactive?


Sudden aggressive response to a stimuli most reasonable persons/dogs would determine to be non-threatening. 
Example: Your dog at heel someone calmly walks up to you greets you and shakes your hand.
Your all sitting down and someone stands up to leave. 
Your dog is at heel someone jogs by, no eye contact or conversation. 

Those are a couple of scenarios most dogs I would term as reactive would not get through. 

Maureen I know dogs stage but what I have understood to be the truth is that if a pup is displaying acute negative behaviors there will always be a remenant of that down the road. Im not talking about some minor environmental nerves i get that that can happen with a developing pup. 

My last GSD was very reactive towards other dogs and people from a couple months into her first year. No amount of socialization, obedience or confidence building changed her innate nervy behavior. Could have easily put some bitework on her but that would have been a recepie for a law suit.. Have also seen plenty of other dogs like this to verying degrees both in training and in other venues. You just can never trust the dog around other people, dog always has to be watched and managed..etc. Also, in my admittedly limited experience this behavior usualliy indicates a dog that has difficulty with pressure down the road.

When looking for my next dog/pup I elliminated any dog/pup that was exhibiting any sort of nerves environmentally or towards people. 

Again I ask is this something you make allowances for with Mals / Dutchies? Or is some nerves/reactivity acceptable and expected when getting into some lines? Do you change this criteria when looking at other breeds?


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## Maureen A Osborn

Joby Becker said:


> I think it may just have a lot to do with internal conflict with the young dog in some cases, that the dog is not sure of what he should do, how he should react, or what is expected of him
> 
> sort of like a young dog showing social aggression, or dominance that he is not yet mature enough to back up. He may have urges, but is not mature enough to make sense out of them, or use them to any real degree.
> 
> I think that dogs that are not social dogs by nature, will be more apt to go through some of what is being talked about here.


Interesting, I have had the same thought....that the dog is not sure of what to make of its "urges" and what to do with them, hence the internal "conflict" and "uncertainty"


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## Maureen A Osborn

Haz, you also need to look at the breed and what it was bred for...the ATTS does a test that scoring varies depending on the aforementioned. http://atts.org/ Some dogs are bred to be suspicious and untrusting towards strangers, and even aggressive if the owner is approached, great example is the fila...I for sure aint going up to someone with a fila and shaking their hand! Owning breeds such as filas, mals, DS, etc, come with a LOT of responsibility, hence why they are not for most people. They are not supposed to have that I love everyone type lab or golden temperament. A dog is a dog, and honestly, it has teeth, and any dog can bite, so trusting a dog 100% is just plain ignorant, no offense. One should always be on alert for their dogs' body language and environment...the dogo that bit the TV lady in the face was showing way obvious signs of stress and the owner did not have a clue and did nothing to stop that lady from getting in his stressed dogs face on her knees, backed into a corner, on the set of a tv studio, in a totally strange environment. THAT was an accident waiting to happen and the owner had NO clue.


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## leslie cassian

I'm with Haz on this topic. My preference is for dogs who are not sharp and reacitve, and to me it often looks more like insecurity than strength.

When I compare my foster DS, who will fire off at anybody she doesn't like, to my own DS, who really doesn't care about anybody unless there's something in it for her, I would much rather have my girl by my side in a dark alley. Not as flashy, but much more likely to rise to a fight if push comes to shove, rather than put on a show and then bail at the first opportunity.

My Mali is Mr. Social out and about, but come near my vehicle and he becomes quietly ugly. Not something I taught, just something he does. 

Extreme sharpness has no appeal to me, unless maybe I lived somewhere where I needed guard dogs and didn't have to worry about liability. Otherwise, just seems like a PITA to deal with.


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## Maureen A Osborn

Someone said to me about my type of DS(Arko Kikkert lines) that I have now(which they also have) being a royal PIA while they are maturing but once they mature, they would not trade them for the world. All depends on what you want.

[QUOTEAlso, in my admittedly limited experience this behavior usualliy indicates a dog that has difficulty with pressure down the road.

][/QUOTE] Depends....you, as the trainer, need to teach the dog to use prey drive as an outlet for stress/pressure. Some dogs are just naturally nore defensive/civil than others from genetics...it is how you work and train this dog is how it can turn out....a dog that is a lot of defense you need to work in prey to try to balance out the drives and vice versa for a prey driven dog.


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## Haz Othman

Maureen A Osborn said:


> Haz, you also need to look at the breed and what it was bred for...the ATTS does a test that scoring varies depending on the aforementioned. http://atts.org/ Some dogs are bred to be suspicious and untrusting towards strangers, and even aggressive if the owner is approached, great example is the fila...I for sure aint going up to someone with a fila and shaking their hand! Owning breeds such as filas, mals, DS, etc, come with a LOT of responsibility, hence why they are not for most people. They are not supposed to have that I love everyone type lab or golden temperament. A dog is a dog, and honestly, it has teeth, and any dog can bite, so trusting a dog 100% is just plain ignorant, no offense. One should always be on alert for their dogs' body language and environment...the dogo that bit the TV lady in the face was showing way obvious signs of stress and the owner did not have a clue and did nothing to stop that lady from getting in his stressed dogs face on her knees, backed into a corner, on the set of a tv studio, in a totally strange environment. THAT was an accident waiting to happen and the owner had NO clue.


Any animal with a mouth can bite and no you can never rely on a dog 100% but I think we all know the difference with the dog that you cannot trust and the one you can. I dont care if the dog loves people, infact I prefer neutrality towards strangers. What I dont like is unwarrented reactivity, in my mind that dog is not a partner its a liability. How can you use such a dog for LE work, its as likely to bite the perp as it is your fellow officers, soldiers what have you. 
I always valued GSDs because they are smarter then the average dog and can fulfill a variety of roles. You can trust a good one as much as you can trust any dog, in short the dog is a partner. I have seen some really nice dutchies and mals lately perhaps a little sharper (lower thresholds) then your average GSD but still pretty decent, good in their work can be taken out and about. 

Now back to my original question is this reactivity normal in these lines and deemed acceptable? Does it always go away? Do you normally just ignore this sort of behavior, and at what point do you wash out the dog?


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## Maureen A Osborn

I will let you know as my girl matures, since she is only 7 months old (her sharpness has already lessened quite a bit), and those I train with say it is an age thing..and I will let you know after the KNPV seminar this weekend, for I plan on chewing this guy's ear off about the lines....however, a few people that I have talked with with the same lines say that it evens out as they mature. Being that those breeding the KNPV lines in Holland seem to like the harder, more civil dogs, the answer may be yes, but I havent seen them speak of the top stud dogs when they were pups and their sharpness
(Arko Kikkert, Boris Doeze, Carlos Vos, etc)...so I can not honestly answer you.


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## Haz Othman

Maureen A Osborn said:


> I will let you know as my girl matures, since she is only 7 months old (her sharpness has already lessened quite a bit), and those I train with say it is an age thing..and I will let you know after the KNPV seminar this weekend, for I plan on chewing this guy's ear off about the lines....however, a few people that I have talked with with the same lines say that it evens out as they mature. Being that those breeding the KNPV lines in Holland seem to like the harder, more civil dogs, the answer may be yes, but I havent seen them speak of the top stud dogs when they were pups and their sharpness
> (Arko Kikkert, Boris Doeze, Carlos Vos, etc)...so I can not honestly answer you.


Awesome please do, I am getting more and more interested in dutch lines and I dont want to make un warrented assumptions when it comes to behavioral expectations. I want a dog I can live with.


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## Joby Becker

Haz Othman said:


> Sudden aggressive response to a stimuli most reasonable persons/dogs would determine to be non-threatening.
> Example: Your dog at heel someone calmly walks up to you greets you and shakes your hand.
> Your all sitting down and someone stands up to leave.
> Your dog is at heel someone jogs by, no eye contact or conversation.
> 
> Those are a couple of scenarios most dogs I would term as reactive would not get through.
> 
> Maureen I know dogs stage but what I have understood to be the truth is that if a pup is displaying acute negative behaviors there will always be a remenant of that down the road. Im not talking about some minor environmental nerves i get that that can happen with a developing pup.
> 
> My last GSD was very reactive towards other dogs and people from a couple months into her first year. No amount of socialization, obedience or confidence building changed her innate nervy behavior. Could have easily put some bitework on her but that would have been a recepie for a law suit.. Have also seen plenty of other dogs like this to verying degrees both in training and in other venues. You just can never trust the dog around other people, dog always has to be watched and managed..etc. Also, in my admittedly limited experience this behavior usualliy indicates a dog that has difficulty with pressure down the road.
> 
> When looking for my next dog/pup I elliminated any dog/pup that was exhibiting any sort of nerves environmentally or towards people.
> 
> Again I ask is this something you make allowances for with Mals / Dutchies? Or is some nerves/reactivity acceptable and expected when getting into some lines? Do you change this criteria when looking at other breeds?


I kinda read up on where you are coming from, and your experience with your "nervebag" dog. 

I think that you may be attributing some traits in certain dogs to "nerves" when in my opinion they may not have much to do with overall nerves, as even though I imagine others may not agree. who knows, it is one of those debated subjects.

Here is description of Nerves, written By Armin W., another part of one of his writings that makes alot of sense to me. with bolded parts that I think may be pertinent here.

_Nerve

Nerve has become a catch phrase for almost everything. Good nerve, bad nerve, weak nerve, strong nerve, thin nerve, thick nerve. Where do these terms come from? And more importantly, what do they mean? The nerve itself is nothing more than a fibrous long cell that transmits impulses from parts of the body to the central nervous system and back again. I don't think anybody is talking about one dog actually having "thinner" nerve cells than another, that would be a bit hard to measure. Webster also refers to nerve as a "boldness or brazenness." And even though that is a bit more useful, it still does not really address the uses of the term. I personally believe that all the talk about nerve came from conversationalizing a behavioral concept that many people using the term are not even familiar with. I will attempt to give a brief description of this concept before talking about a practical assessment of nerve.

The concept I am referring to is one that the behaviorist Ivan P. Pavlov developed to type temperament. He used a system to differentiate between four basic "types" of higher nervous system activity (This where the term nerve came from.) He based his terminology on a concept that leads back to Hippocrates (500 B.C.) where the temperament types were based on four different bodily fluids, namely blood (sanguine type), mucus (phlegm/phlegmatic type), bile (choler/choleric type), and black bile (melancholic type). That is just to explain where the names came from. Now the breakdown of what the types actually mean.

What does Pavlov mean by "higher nervous system activity?" The two basic types of nervous system processes are arousal (excitement) and inhibition (blocking). Both of these processes are necessary for an animal to adapt to its environment and to learn and perform skills and tasks in order to function. These processes take place in the cerebral cortex of the brain as physiological studies have shown. It is the strength of these processes as well as their balance and speed of mobility between the processes that gave Pavlov the separation criteria for his temperament typing.

Dogs who displayed weakly developed arousal and inhibition processes were categorized as "weak types." The name for this type is the melancholic type. Since these dogs are identified by their weakness of nervous system processes they will never function properly in their environment. Any degree of difficulty when performing a task leads to failure. They generally show passive behavioral tendencies and weak reactions. Avoidance and flight tendencies are pronounced. They appear often inhibited, anxious, and unsure, which are results of this weakness of nervous system processes. They generally have low stimulus thresholds.

"Strong types" are split into three different separate types as well.

*First there is the "strong, unbalanced arousable (excitable) type." This type is referred to as the choleric type. In this type display very strongly developed a rousal (excitement) processes with weakly developed inhibition processes. They often appear unruly and out of control. They have aggressive tendencies, and are very active dogs. Their responses to commands and handsignals that trigger arousal (excitement) processes are very fast. But the accuracy of the performances of tasks is often poor, since inhibition (blocking) processes are weakly developed and arousal processes dominate them. In other words, they do not differentiate as clearly between tasks. The active defensive reaction is pronounced. These dogs appear irascible (easily angered or quick tempered). They have low stimulus thresholds.*

Second there is the "strong, balanced, mobile type." This type is called the sanguine type. The word balanced refers to a balance between strong arousal (excitement) and strong inhibition (blocking) processes. These types perform all tasks very fast and accurately. They rarely make mistakes and learn very quickly. If they have the right attributes for protection work they make excellent service and performance dogs. They generally have medium stimulation thresholds.

Third, there is the "strong, balanced sluggish type." This type is called the phlegmatic type. They have strongly developed arousal (excitement) processes and strongly developed inhibition (blocking) processes and a good balance between the two. The designation sluggish refers to a slow mobility between the two processes. These dogs are generally described as calm. They work consistently but slowly. They require strong stimulation to stay motivated and require repetition of stimuli. Their performance potential is limited due to the slow mobility. They have high stimulus thresholds.

I hope this gives the reader a bit of an understanding of the basic temperament types that have lead to the term nerve. Naturally there are still differences within each type. Again I would like to stress that the more detailed an assessment is, the better.

Now that we know where the term nerve comes from, we have to examine what we should look at when discussing the nerve of a dog.* One big misconception is once again the stimulus thresholds a dog exhibits. A low stimulus threshold does not make a dog weak nerved. But it is likely that such a dog is a more reactive than one with higher stimulation thresholds. But the reactions have to be assessed separately to determine the strength of the dog.*

Another misinterpreted trait is the activity level vs. calmness of a dog. Calm and sometimes even passive dogs are often said to have good nerve. And while the calm type still is one of the strong types, they are certainly not the most desirable workers. The passive type is actually more often the weak type than not. To give a little more food for thought on that topic, I'd like to refer to the findings of the behaviorist Krushinsky during the training of "anti-tank dogs" during the war. Anti-tank-dogs were trained to run under tanks with a pack of explosives strapped to their backs and remain there until the explosives could be detonated. Putting aside the wasteful aspects of this use for dogs, it needs to be said that it was an extremely difficult task for dogs to perform. Aside from the distractions of battle noise, smell, and people everywhere which made it difficult to direct the dogs, they also had to overcome natural fear and inhibition to stay only a few feet away from the steel tracks of the tanks. So it only stands to reason that dogs which were required for this task were dogs who had especially strong nerves. But to quote Krushinsky "it is a mistake to expect to find these dogs among the calm and passive types, instead they were all very highly arousable (excitable) and very active." This didn't become apparent however until all the candidates who showed great results in training were also tested for their arousability (excitability) and activity level. They performed tests measuring ease of arousal and physical mobility. The results were very clear, the dogs who performed their tasks in a reliable, fast and precise manner under these extreme demands were all dogs who also displayed very high activity levels and low stimulus excitability.

*So all the talk about nerve that I hear in discussions is quite vague and not very descriptive at all. People's tastes regarding which of the temperament types (or nerve types) they prefer seems to play a large role in which adjective they put in front of the word nerve when it comes to describing a dog.* Again, I feel that we need much more detail in our discussions if we want to get a true picture of the dog in question._

I assume that you might see a "nervebag" or "nervy" or "weak nerved dog", where I may not...as it goes with dog terms...

I do think however, that as very small puppies in a litter you should not really be seeing signs of insecurity around people.

I do think that you want a dog that is trustable, and that is fine with me, but many dogs are not what most people would call tustable., and that really may not have much to do with the dog being "nervy". There are plenty of dogs that are not social and trustable that are solid working dogs, with very solid nerves, it is true however that many of those dogs are not ideal for certain situations.

There is such a thing as a dog that is just not very social, and also dogs that are socially aggressive and/or dominant.

I have talked with people that always seem to label a dog fearful, or nervy, if it shows aggressive tendencies towards people or other dogs, and I just dont think that is always accurate. sure sometimes of course. I think that the nervy label fits mcuh more so if the dog is reactive, fearful or jumpy when looking at other various environmental things, but not always with people, or other dogs.

I get the reasoning, just dont agree 100%, you would have a hard time convincing me that a dog that would fly through a window to mop the yard with another dog that is outside 50 ft away, is automatically fearful or insecure around dogs, or neccessarily nervy, he just might be socially aggressive and want to kill that dog. Is a dog like that a liability, sure could be, if not under control or contained properly.

For me, threshold and reactivity is something else, as is sociability. Some people would label a dog nervy if it is the type of dog that may bite a person, for simply trying to pet the dog. I would not automatically do so.

I have been in peoples homes where very strong nerved dogs were staring at me waiting for a command so they could eat me, just for being there. One guy used to have his dogs platz (gsd), and when he left the room the dogs would lay there and stare at me growling, and those dogs feared nothing, and were bombproof, nervewise.

I had a GSD that was fairly tight on Grief, through Natan. That dog could have also been a pretty big liabiltiy in the wrong hands, went through a few weird stages growing up, and was not a friendly 100% trustable dog by nature, but had great nerves, and was what I considered a GREAT dog, just not a great dog for everyone.

There are reasons that certain types of dogs are not allowed to play with people, or interact with strangers to any real degree, or play with other dogs.

There are lots of dogs that dont want people touching them, and dont like people touching their owners, and are suspicious or not real friendly or even antisocial by nature, that I might not label as a nervy dog, but that is just me.


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## Joby Becker

Haz Othman said:


> Awesome please do, I am getting more and more interested in dutch lines and I dont want to make un warrented assumptions when it comes to behavioral expectations. I want a dog I can live with.


Haz, there are many types of dogs that are bred to be working dogs, where many of the things you might require to have a dog for yourself, being very trustable, living in your home, doing whatever it is you need or want them to do, concerning family, kids, visitors, strangers and other dogs are not really required or focused on in the breedings, just keep that in mind. I dont think that breeding good family dogs for most people are a breeding priority in many police dog kennels.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

I have had a couple of what I term "serious" dogs with instinctive guard and protection traits. Thinking of this thread makes me think of Thor-bouvier. He passed all of my people/environment testing at 3, 5 and 7 weeks. Then about 5 months, he developed a distrust of strangers and could be quite reactive--bark, growl, etc. depending on what the stranger did. I would say he was defensive/reactive from 5--18 months. Then, wallah!! He himself never cared to solicit attention from anyone else. I could say "Thor, say hi," and he would walk up and present his head. He adored kids and babies. I don't think one should automatically consider any type of aggression response fear or nerve based. Some dogs have protection, guard instinct and if you trigger it, they will bite. Staring and stomping your foot at a dog is a challenge to the dog. I don't consider every reaction to that born of fear. What's really funny to me is that this type of "sharpness" is something considered a KNPV thing or something rare. Dogs go through mental growth phases. I don't expect them to really start to settle into themselves until around 28 months--especially males. Some mature faster than others and some don't really go through phases. During the phases, you might be tempted to call them "nervy" or "fearful." But those phases pass unless you mishandle them.

Joby's Stefan quote makes me think of Thor. He was high maintenance from 5-18 months but pure gold afterwards and I'd kill to have another one like him. 

T


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## Haz Othman

Joby Becker said:


> Haz, there are many types of dogs that are bred to be working dogs, where many of the things you might require to have a dog for yourself, being very trustable, living in your home, doing whatever it is you need or want them to do, concerning family, kids, visitors, strangers and other dogs are not really required or focused on in the breedings, just keep that in mind. I dont think that breeding good family dogs for most people are a breeding priority in many police dog kennels.


Thanks for the article it was excellent. I realize that not all types of working dog are my type or right for me. I also realize that some people have different preferences then I do. Are you saying that apparent reactive aggression as a pup could simply just be natural social aggression begining to manifest itself? Which then begs the question is social aggression derived from fear or is just the inherent genetic inclination the dog has? When dealing with a pup how do you determine if the aggression is based on poor nerve or social aggression? 
Also a point i know many leo dogs go home with the officer at the end of the day does that not imply the dogs are somewhat stable / trustable?


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## Terrasita Cuffie

I'll leave Joby to explore his favorite topic--social aggression but not all PSDs can function as family dogs or are what you would describe as socially reliable. 


T


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## Joby Becker

Haz Othman said:


> Thanks for the article it was excellent. I realize that not all types of working dog are my type or right for me. I also realize that some people have different preferences then I do. Are you saying that apparent reactive aggression as a pup could simply just be natural social aggression begining to manifest itself? Which then begs the question is social aggression derived from fear or is just the inherent genetic inclination the dog has? When dealing with a pup how do you determine if the aggression is based on poor nerve or social aggression?
> Also a point i know many leo dogs go home with the officer at the end of the day does that not imply the dogs are somewhat stable / trustable?


Sure lots of police dogs go home with their handlers, some in the house with the family, others in kennels. the point was that it doesnt always work out like you might like it to, when purchasing a dog bred for police work and try to make it a working pet in the home, with a normal family dog type expectation. 

Social aggression is also a hotly debated term LOL... although, I would not call a very well bred GSD, for instance, that internally just really wants to maybe try to kill me, just for being in HIS home, fearful, but that is just me.

When dealing with a pup, it is very helpful to know the lines and the dogs that came before the pup, and how they are. If the family of dogs is well known to throw dogs with good nerves, then it is probably not nerves.

I cannot really convince anyone of what I am saying if they doubt it, have different experiences or opionions, I am just giving my take on various things.


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## Maureen A Osborn

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> I have had a couple of what I term "serious" dogs with instinctive guard and protection traits. Thinking of this thread makes me think of Thor-bouvier. He passed all of my people/environment testing at 3, 5 and 7 weeks. Then about 5 months, he developed a distrust of strangers and could be quite reactive--bark, growl, etc. depending on what the stranger did. I would say he was defensive/reactive from 5--18 months. Then, wallah!! He himself never cared to solicit attention from anyone else. I could say "Thor, say hi," and he would walk up and present his head. He adored kids and babies. I don't think one should automatically consider any type of aggression response fear or nerve based. Some dogs have protection, guard instinct and if you trigger it, they will bite. Staring and stomping your foot at a dog is a challenge to the dog. I don't consider every reaction to that born of fear. What's really funny to me is that this type of "sharpness" is something considered a KNPV thing or something rare. Dogs go through mental growth phases. I don't expect them to really start to settle into themselves until around 28 months--especially males. Some mature faster than others and some don't really go through phases. During the phases, you might be tempted to call them "nervy" or "fearful." But those phases pass unless you mishandle them.
> 
> Joby's Stefan quote makes me think of Thor. He was high maintenance from 5-18 months but pure gold afterwards and I'd kill to have another one like him.
> 
> T


Yes, exactly what I have been told about my girls lines.....She is a HANDFUL right now, however, with correct training and not rewarding the sharpness, she should even out to like people have said.

I have read the article that Joby posted and agree a lot with what it says. People can be too quick to call a dog nervy or weak when they dont truly understand the dog (or even dogs in general).My late Katy, a Rudie Pegge granddaughter, was very social and loving to strangers, so they would label her as strong nerved and stable....I felt just the opposite, for she would cringe at gunshots and thunder, did not like new surroundings/footing, and would have NEVER done ANYTHING that I have asked Melee ( Arko Kikkert granddaughter)to do. Katy was NOT environmentally sound in the least. Melee, on the other hand, is beyond environmentally stable, to where I have to watch her very closely so she doesn get herself hurt with her explorative nature. A dog that is being used for PD or MWD had best be environmentally stable since they are asked to do so much that most dogs would never be able to do or deal with. Just my 2 cents


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## mike suttle

I normally tend to see most dogs who display what looks like aggression as being somewhat insecure. I have had many dogs show a lot of aggression toward people, but I normally doubt how willling they really are to really go to battle and stay in the fight like I want a dog to do. If I look at the strongest dogs I have ever owned, all of them but one was very social to strangers, and even other dogs. Dogs like Endor, Arco Roosen, Ducas, Ivo, Bronco, Reno, my new Rudy, etc, all of those dogs are very social to people, yet have an extremely high drive to fight when challanged. In my opinion they have the perfect temperament. People who know me, know how we test dogs and I promise you those dogs have been put through the ringer and never once had an issue, they performed exceptionally well in every area. These dogs were anything but sharp, and were much stronger and better working dogs than about any "sharp" dog that I have ever seen.
Now.......there was one exception here: Arko Kikkert. That dog remains to this day the most dominant dog I have ever owned by far, he was very forward, very aggressive, very dangerous toward people. He would see someone 100's of yards away and would try to go fight them. I saw him try to go through a guest room door one time just because he knew there was a stranger in the guest room. He broke out of a crate in the garage and tried to break through the main entrance to my house to get to a guest who was inside my home here one day. I have never owned a dog like him in my life, and I will never own another one like him I am sure. (at least I hope not !) But I can say with confidence that Arko Kikkert had true forward aggression, not driven by fear, or insecurity, or stress, or worry. But driven by an unnatural desire to fight a man. 
Having owned this dog for 8 years I do know that they can exist, but are exceedingly rare. I very seldom see anything but insecurity with most "aggressive" dogs, but I know there are some who are very confident, and still very dangerous.


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## Michael Murphy

does line breeding on arko produce anything like arko


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## Kadi Thingvall

Haz Othman said:


> I always valued GSDs because they are smarter then the average dog and can fulfill a variety of roles. You can trust a good one as much as you can trust any dog, in short the dog is a partner. I have seen some really nice dutchies and mals lately perhaps a little sharper (lower thresholds) then your average GSD but still pretty decent, good in their work can be taken out and about.
> 
> Now back to my original question is this reactivity normal in these lines and deemed acceptable? Does it always go away? Do you normally just ignore this sort of behavior, and at what point do you wash out the dog?


Malinois should be more reactive than GSD, on average. It's part of what makes each breed what they are, and also leads to each breed having it's own set of fans. That doesn't mean they should be excessively reactive, fly off the handle about a butterfly 100 feet away, etc. But they are probably going to notice the butterfly 100 feet away 

Reactive really just means, "quicker to react". It doesn't mean "react in a bad way". It can be as simple as noticing something. 

I like Malinois, I like their quickness and reactivity. I can see why GSD people like GSD, but to me they are kind of dull, I like a dog with more twitch. On the flip side my GSD loving friends can see why I like Malinois, but in their opinion they are to "twitchy" (fast to react), they like what they term a more stable dog, which is really just a less reactive dog. And then I have friends that have and love both.

As far as washing out the dog, I would wash out a dog who's nerves were no good. Reacting to things is one thing, HOW the dog reacts is another. A dog can see and react to something, with the reaction being something as simple as standing taller, focusing, etc. It doesn't have to mean being fearful, overly aggressive, etc.


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## Joby Becker

mike suttle said:


> I normally tend to see most dogs who display what looks like aggression as being somewhat insecure. I have had many dogs show a lot of aggression toward people, but I normally doubt how willling they really are to really go to battle and stay in the fight like I want a dog to do. If I look at the strongest dogs I have ever owned, all of them but one was very social to strangers, and even other dogs. Dogs like Endor, Arco Roosen, Ducas, Ivo, Bronco, Reno, my new Rudy, etc, all of those dogs are very social to people, yet have an extremely high drive to fight when challanged. In my opinion they have the perfect temperament. People who know me, know how we test dogs and I promise you those dogs have been put through the ringer and never once had an issue, they performed exceptionally well in every area. These dogs were anything but sharp, and were much stronger and better working dogs than about any "sharp" dog that I have ever seen.
> Now.......there was one exception here: Arko Kikkert. That dog remains to this day the most dominant dog I have ever owned by far, he was very forward, very aggressive, very dangerous toward people. He would see someone 100's of yards away and would try to go fight them. I saw him try to go through a guest room door one time just because he knew there was a stranger in the guest room. He broke out of a crate in the garage and tried to break through the main entrance to my house to get to a guest who was inside my home here one day. I have never owned a dog like him in my life, and I will never own another one like him I am sure. (at least I hope not !) But I can say with confidence that Arko Kikkert had true forward aggression, not driven by fear, or insecurity, or stress, or worry. But driven by an unnatural desire to fight a man.
> Having owned this dog for 8 years I do know that they can exist, but are exceedingly rare. I very seldom see anything but insecurity with most "aggressive" dogs, but I know there are some who are very confident, and still very dangerous.


Mike I agree with your take on it, it is exceedingly rare in its truest and most expressed form. 

I have come accross a few I would say were similar to what you describe arko as. I am not saying that they were dogs of the same quality, or that they had all the traits that arko had, or that they would even pass all the tests that you do, but I have seen this in a few dogs, One was a presa I owned, very dominant aggressive even as small pup, would bloody you up as small pup for various reasons. Dog was used to engage people on a couple occasions, and also tore a guy up in my car, when dog jumped in there and guy was sleeping in back seat, unbeknownst to me. Dog ended up getting double snared through a window and put down, while I was in the hospital, after a car accident, and would not allow anyone into the home. 

His father and his grandfather were the same way, it was a freakish thing that was pretty well cemented into that family of dogs, mostly in the males... that line dissappeared pretty quickly here in the USA, within a few generations, but was a well known line of fighting dogs in Spain, man or beast did not matter, was all the same to those dogs...I was offered several littermates to my dog, becuase they put people including their owners and others, in the hospital by 8 months or so. The father had NO bite training, had a couple of live bites where he had to be pried off of people, under his belt when I went to look at him, we went out to a field and the dog engaged forcefully and bit and fought in a suit, from about 50 yards away, just for getting his attention, with no bite training. The pup I had wsa ready to hurt people at 6-7 months old, and would guard any area he was put into at a young age.

Another one was small female pitbull, that came to me for PP training, dog had not taken but a couple of sleeve bites previously, and was biting the suit on the first day like a seasoned trained police dog would, with very serious intent, was highly dangerous dog to work, angry as hell, fast and reckless...with no targeting work. looked at people like they were other pitbulls to fight, I have no doubt that dog would engage a naked person standing there, just as she would bite a guy in a suit, agitating her.,.. screamed a battle cry like Spike in the videos, and was fast as a bullet, knocked a guy right out of a barn once that tried to catch her up top when she took his gut, instead of his arm, after a few sessions of bitework.

And a couple of GSD.

Again not really comparing them to Arko, or saying a whole lot, just saying that they all had that dominance and desire to fight people, and that type of social aggression. 

Did Arko's father display these types of traits? 

With the one I had, it was a dominant trait, genetically, that was passed on pretty regularly in the males especially, from what I know of that family, it showed regardless of the upbringing or training.

Have you noticed this social trait being passed on at all, down the line, even if diluted somewhat? I think there is one pup out of the litter we had that may have this type of temperament to some degree, from the sounds of him anyhow as described by his owner, he said the dog is stalking his neighbor from window to window if not under control. If the dog is in the house and the neighbor is outside, and even if the neighbor is in his own house, and the dog is outside.

I have not yet seen him as an adult, as a young dog, he did not display the same type of thing that my presa would have at that age, he seemed rather normal, who knows, hopefully I will be able to check him out again soon. The guy muzzles the dog alot from what I gather, for safety purposes.


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## Kevin Cyr

Michael Murphy said:


> does line breeding on arko produce anything like arko


still looking for civil are you


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## Joby Becker

Oh and Haz. I am sure there are lots of dogs that act like that where I might also be thinking that they are shitters for sure, on gut appraisal if I see that behavior in a dog I dont know.

It is very likely that I might agree with you about your previous dog as well, that it was a nervebag, you knew the dog, spent time with it, knew all the quirks.

Haz..my current dog.....

I did not really socialize the dog as a pup, on purpose, as an exploration of sorts into the dog itself, for my own reasons. 

at about 9 months I took the dog into public onleash and she basically wanted to try to eat everyone, or at least it appeared that is what she wanted to try to do, or thought she might try to do, anyhow, lots of lunging, barking, etc. etc. at kids, adults, bicycle riders, skateboarders, whatever.

I gave dog a leash correction that she was not conditioned to, and the dog came at me, attempting to get a piece of me several times, after a protracted "discussion" that involved a little stringing up, helicoptering, choking out, and choke slamming, the dog almost all of the sudden sort of knew how to act, and she never has shown that type of behavior since that day. 

A two weeks later I took the dog to an event with 100's of people, dog never acted up like that. 

Same dog showed very little drive at that time for equipment, becuase I also did not do any real drive building, or foundation bitework, aside from playing with small puppy with a rag a couple times, on purpose, as an experiment, 

I pulled the dog out to see how she might do, on a sleeve bite, straight prey, not much drive at all, weak bite, no enthusiam, which I expected on some level of course, I tossed her in a kennel, had a guy give the dog the stink eye, while holding a shovel and stomp his foot taking a step towards the dog, the dog locked on to his eyes, and immediately blew up, jumped and almost made it over the kennel, there is very little doubt in my mind she would have engaged that guy, but who knows for sure..

Then I put her back on tie out, and had first guy give another attempt at sleeve bite, the dog immediately bit, with intensity, and full, then let go and grabbed his stick arm when he raised it up, and was careless with it, had to be removed.

At the Iron Dog/Battle of the Bulls event, a couple weeks later, I tossed the her in a driviest puppy contest, with about 50 or so puppies of various breeds including some mals, gsd, bulldogs, apbt, and some other offbreeds, (it was mainly a bulldog event, but had Iron Dog, "protection" and weight pull events for all breeds) that were split up into goups and "teased" in large circle arrangements, the dog took first place as the pup/young dog that the judges and decoy felt displayed the most "drive", although she was not even looking at the rag the guy was waiving around, she was focused on him.

here is a video of the dog at that event prior to that drivey puppy contest, getting a little "primer", I have posted this here before and gotten some real crummy reviews for all the wasted energy, and barking etc...and whatever else, but again, it was in preparation for a driviest puppy contest LOL in which all that stuff is expected.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ur9J-wuMBds

Haz, this video pretty much looks sort of like how the dog acted when taken out into public for the first time, minus the decoy type, and the sleeve and the whip, insert normal people in public.

That is also dog 2 weeks after attempting first sleeve bite, and dog showing very little interest in it, low drive for sleeve, and weak bite.. with pretty much zero foundation or socialization.

She also passed a DHT test (defense of handler) similar to this one, but was considerably more active once the "badguy" or whatever entered the scene, and I am fairly sure she would have grabbed the guy, dont have video of that though.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oed973G5LV4

i am not posting these things as a brag of any kind, I realize that this type of thing is really entry level shit, in an organization that many people have no respect for, just sharing the video again, so Haz can kinda see what I am talking about, even though I pretty sure my dog might have been quite different if she was socialized properly and got a better foundation.

I am not saying that my dog is like some of the types of dogs we were discussing either, but she did show some reactivity for sure, I dont think she is cowardly, or has really bad nerves, considering her early exposure to things, or lack their of, and how she has adjusted into a more normal life, I would call her nerves pretty good, and her a good dog....she is a little crankier while in the house than I might prefer, but some dogs are...

maureen... 
I also think that there are plenty of police dogs out there with less than ideal "nerve" or whatever, by the way... :-$


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## jamie lind

Did you observe any of these dogs growing up or only as adults?



mike suttle said:


> I normally tend to see most dogs who display what looks like aggression as being somewhat insecure. I have had many dogs show a lot of aggression toward people, but I normally doubt how willling they really are to really go to battle and stay in the fight like I want a dog to do. If I look at the strongest dogs I have ever owned, all of them but one was very social to strangers, and even other dogs. Dogs like Endor, Arco Roosen, Ducas, Ivo, Bronco, Reno, my new Rudy, etc, all of those dogs are very social to people, yet have an extremely high drive to fight when challanged. In my opinion they have the perfect temperament. People who know me, know how we test dogs and I promise you those dogs have been put through the ringer and never once had an issue, they performed exceptionally well in every area. These dogs were anything but sharp, and were much stronger and better working dogs than about any "sharp" dog that I have ever seen.
> Now.......there was one exception here: Arko Kikkert. That dog remains to this day the most dominant dog I have ever owned by far, he was very forward, very aggressive, very dangerous toward people. He would see someone 100's of yards away and would try to go fight them. I saw him try to go through a guest room door one time just because he knew there was a stranger in the guest room. He broke out of a crate in the garage and tried to break through the main entrance to my house to get to a guest who was inside my home here one day. I have never owned a dog like him in my life, and I will never own another one like him I am sure. (at least I hope not !) But I can say with confidence that Arko Kikkert had true forward aggression, not driven by fear, or insecurity, or stress, or worry. But driven by an unnatural desire to fight a man.
> Having owned this dog for 8 years I do know that they can exist, but are exceedingly rare. I very seldom see anything but insecurity with most "aggressive" dogs, but I know there are some who are very confident, and still very dangerous.


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## Tiago Fontes

Joby Becker said:


> And a couple of GSD.


 
Do you know how these GSDs were bred?



Thanks


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## Maureen A Osborn

> maureen...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I also think that there are plenty of police dogs out there with less than ideal "nerve" or whatever, by the way...


Yea, I have seen my fair share, unfortunately...I prolly should have said "should" have good nerve to be a PSD


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## mike suttle

jamie lind said:


> Did you observe any of these dogs growing up or only as adults?


I observed Endor from a very young age, and watched his training progress, he was always very social.
I bought Rudy very young and he was also social from the start.
Arko was already 3 years old before I saw him for the first time, he was not social, but I have heard that he was very social as a puppy, but after about 18 months had grown into what he was when I first saw him. The only story that I heard about him when he was a puppy was when he was about 16 weeks old he was playing with a broom in the club house at his KNPV club, and when someone tried to take the broom from him he came unglued and went into a bit of a rage about fighting to keep his broom. But when not in drive over an object they say he was fine with people.
Most of the sharp dogs that I see are not overly social as young dogs, either in or out of drive.


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## Haz Othman

Mikes comments on this topic are pretty much what I believed. The vast majority of young dogs pups that exhibit unwarrented aggression towards people and other stimuli tend to be weaker dogs in the end..understandable since life mist be stressful when everybody they meet is a threat. I guess the exception to this is arko who seems to have been a freak of nature. Mike there alot of arko progeny around and being bred into other lines should you expect pups to be similar to Arko? Do you find he throws himself well or is he used to add social aggression and fight to already stable bloodlines. I shudder to think about arko aggreasion coupled with nerves that are less then solid. Seems like a dog you should be very careful with in your breedings.

Joby the pup in your vids seemed a bit hectic but her body language was all forward and her bites seemed pretty full and confident. The one incident you refer to is not what I am talking about. Especially since after that the behavior ceased im talking about ongoing behavior were the pup is reacting aggressively towards people for no reason and seems unsure about new things..like a bike or a bus. I would tend to view such a pup as less then strong.


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## Maureen A Osborn

Haz, its not the whole "unsure of new things" but the recovery period after the exposure. A dog can be unsure of something, but its willingness to investigate and overcome that uncertainty is the sign of strong or weak "nerves." I do own a fear aggressive dogo argentino, who does not recover from new things, she goes into total avoidance. You need to see and meet the individual dog and see its body language with the aggression as well as the circumstances...is it forward, tail up and ears up and forward and stays that way as the threat gets near and dog does not retreat? Is the head down, ears back, tail down and the dog moves away as the threat gets nearer? How is the dog when staked out in a strange place without the owner around doing the same thing with a threat? Its not black and white. I am by far no expert, but I know each dog is different and you cant judge each equally.


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## Christopher Jones

Agree 100% with you Mike. It mirrors everything I have seen as well.
With regards to Arko I understand he had quite the upbringing before Bert got him. Maybe his outward aggression is in some way due to his upbringing? I believe that while Arko is what he is, he is 100% safe with your family and kids?
So these dogs you have on a pedestal how many if them worked in defence or had much defence in their make up?



mike suttle said:


> I normally tend to see most dogs who display what looks like aggression as being somewhat insecure. I have had many dogs show a lot of aggression toward people, but I normally doubt how willling they really are to really go to battle and stay in the fight like I want a dog to do. If I look at the strongest dogs I have ever owned, all of them but one was very social to strangers, and even other dogs. Dogs like Endor, Arco Roosen, Ducas, Ivo, Bronco, Reno, my new Rudy, etc, all of those dogs are very social to people, yet have an extremely high drive to fight when challanged. In my opinion they have the perfect temperament. People who know me, know how we test dogs and I promise you those dogs have been put through the ringer and never once had an issue, they performed exceptionally well in every area. These dogs were anything but sharp, and were much stronger and better working dogs than about any "sharp" dog that I have ever seen.
> Now.......there was one exception here: Arko Kikkert. That dog remains to this day the most dominant dog I have ever owned by far, he was very forward, very aggressive, very dangerous toward people. He would see someone 100's of yards away and would try to go fight them. I saw him try to go through a guest room door one time just because he knew there was a stranger in the guest room. He broke out of a crate in the garage and tried to break through the main entrance to my house to get to a guest who was inside my home here one day. I have never owned a dog like him in my life, and I will never own another one like him I am sure. (at least I hope not !) But I can say with confidence that Arko Kikkert had true forward aggression, not driven by fear, or insecurity, or stress, or worry. But driven by an unnatural desire to fight a man.
> Having owned this dog for 8 years I do know that they can exist, but are exceedingly rare. I very seldom see anything but insecurity with most "aggressive" dogs, but I know there are some who are very confident, and still very dangerous.


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## mike suttle

Christopher Jones said:


> Agree 100% with you Mike. It mirrors everything I have seen as well.
> With regards to Arko I understand he had quite the upbringing before Bert got him. Maybe his outward aggression is in some way due to his upbringing? I believe that while Arko is what he is, he is 100% safe with your family and kids?
> So these dogs you have on a pedestal how many if them worked in defence or had much defence in their make up?


 He was actually good with my wife after several months with us, the kids were never allowed to go near his kennel without me with them, but they were very tiny, and that was a standard safety measure with my kids and all of my dogs. When I would walk the kids to his kennel he acted the same way with them that he acted with me, rubbing his giant head against the fence and soliciting affection from them. He was fine with them, even when out in the yard, but my kids have a tendancy to bite ears, poke eyes, and shove leggos in ear canals so I never trusted them not to hurt Arko and therefor never let them play together unsupervised. LOL


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## Maureen A Osborn

Mike, do you know if Mario Smeijer of Holland knew Arko at all while he was over there? That is the seminar I am going to this weekend.


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## Michael Murphy

the reason i don't like very social dogs and prefer less social or civil dogs and to an extent terratorial aggression , is because i find the idea of someone being able to walk into my yard , put a leash on my dog and walk of with him :-&.......
im a bit old school in the mentality that a dog should be "loyal"


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## Alice Bezemer

Michael Murphy said:


> the reason i don't like very social dogs and prefer less social or civil dogs and to an extent terratorial aggression , is because i find the idea of someone being able to walk into my yard , put a leash on my dog and walk of with him :-&.......
> im a bit old school in the mentality that a dog should be "loyal"


Loyal and territorial agression have nothing to do with eachother... You seriously have a wire loose somewhere Michael...


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## Michael Murphy

i didn't link them together. AND i put quotation marks around the world loyal, to show that it was not the exact meaning of the word........


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## Maureen A Osborn

http://www.videxgsd.com/understanding_dogs.htm



> ^from the above site
> *Sharp Temperament*
> A dog with a sharp temperament reacts (immediately) to *individual* environmental stimuli *without thought*. The dog does not consider consequences. It may jump sideways and run far away if startled by a slamming door, very reluctant to return, if at all. The sharp dog recovers, but slowly. The sharp dog may fearfully bark forever at the play of shadow across a doorway, or the light pattering of a small branch on the roof. If the stimulus is innocent and continuous, the sharp dog does not settle down and accept its innocence. It continues to react without thought. It will not investigate.
> This dog may seem at first to be an excellent alarm dog, but extreme sharpness, coupled often with a lack of confidence, could make it a perpetual nuisance to neighbours and household members.
> *Sharp-Shy Temperament*
> The Sharp-Shy dog displays aggression based on fear; he is the classic “fear-biter.” Being sharp, he responds without thinking, and being shy, he is fearful. This combination produces a dog that bites at any unfamiliarity without thinking. Fear is a normal reaction in a normal dog to a perceived threat, but when the threat is over, the dog should recover quickly. The sharp-shy dog recovers slowly; its fear may even paralyse it, and it may bite if touched. It may be taught to adjust in a particular environment or situation, but when that situation changes, it will react again in fear and the behavioural cycle starts over again. The Sharp-shy dog can never be fixed.


https://kraftwerkk9.com/faq/the-schutzhund-dog-defining-what-it-takes/


> *Sharpness (^from the above site)*
> 
> The word sharpness is commonly misused and abused, to the extent that it creates a negative impression. Sharpness is a dog’s constant readiness to react in a hostile manner to all real or imagined threats and stimuli. As trainers, when you analyze this statement, you’ll quickly realize that too much sharpness is as undesirable as too little is. An “ideally sharp” dog is one that is far quicker to recognize and react to a REAL threat than one that may have too much or too little sharpness. In the German Shepherd, the medium ranges of sharpness are those most conductive to successful training results.
> *The fear biter*
> 
> At the bottom of the pile with no home of redemption is the fear biter. He is immediately identified in the man work by his curved body, laid back ears, and refusal to engage in any form of sustained eye or body contact.
> Such dogs are an agitator’s nightmare as they exhaust all human skills, and will take only quick, nasty swipes and nips at those points furthest away from the helper’s eye contact. These wretched animals are in an almost constant state of stress and ever ready to flee at the slightest threat. Such cowards can only be swindled through their trials (with the help of a blind judge) and invariably never come to anything


I went to a seminar years ago done by Paul Cipparone of Wellington K9 in Canada, he does seminars all over the world for FR and Sch and I remember him describing different "types" of sharp... 

here is a link to another forum with a discussion on sharp dogs:
http://www.dogforums.com/first-time-dog-owner/140154-sharp-dogs-breeds-print.html


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## Joby Becker

I have always looked at sharpness as what most people look at as "civil", in regards to humans, with dogs. meaning that the dog will react with biting, for real, in a strong way, and personally have set aside the "threshold" portion of it, and looked at it as how much inhibition there is to using violence, or lack of inhibition, and the response itself and dont look at it in the way of thresholds as much, although I know that most people do..for me presonally a sharp dog, is a dog that will bite first, and ask questions later, ONCE the dog gets to that point, regardless of what it takes to get him there, a dog that brings a strong active response.

Having dealt with mollosers, terriers, and offbreeds in general, more than herders, the way I look at it, I have found is has been helpful, and there are quite a few others that have looked at the same way I do.

for instance, if trying to hash out information on certain types of dogs, say Presa Canario, or American Bulldogs, or APBT...quite afew people use the terms Man sharp, or Fur sharp, becuase in those types of dogs you hav different lines for different uses, you can have AB for example that are really game sharp dogs, with almost no man sharpness, or have man sharp dogs, that are not as sharp with other animals. 

I have heard the word used this way from Spaniards, and Germans, and some Americans..but do see the other meanings of "sharp" used much more often.

Another take on sharpness. food for thought. Which is very similar to how I look at it, and some others.

http://www.schutzhundvillage.com/terms2.html



> *Sharpness
> Sharpness is probably the most incorrectly used term in English dog terminology. I may be wrong here, but I thought the word sharpness was a translation of the German term "Schärfe." But the use of the term sharpness is very much a contradiction of the German term. In every conversation I have, people use sharpness synonymous with spooky or jumpy or nervy. But the word "Schärfe" in German texts is actually defined as being synonymous with aggression. So there certainly is a great discrepancy between the uses of the word.
> 
> The type of aggression that is talked about when the term sharpness is used seems to vary depending on the designed use of the dog. For example, in big game hunting dogs and terriers it refers particularly to the intensity and attitude with which these hunting dogs kill their respective prey. It is not prey drive as such; it is the actual killing response that is assessed. I have heard the term "gameness" used in the US in a similar context. For the large game hunting dogs the word used is "Wildschärfe," which translates as game sharpness. This assessment is made best when observing how the dog deals with wild boars. Because of the "bringing down" requirement in this type of hunting many of the dogs of these breeds use physical dominance techniques.
> 
> For terriers the term is "Raubzeugschärfe," which translates as small predator sharpness. Terriers are used to hunt and kill small predators such as martens, foxes, badgers, etc. It is no easy feat to kill these predators without suffering injury. So a particularly fast and furious shaking technique is very common, as is a chomping bite behavior. These types of sharpness categorize the dog's prey drive.
> 
> Now to the term that we should be most interested in for our service dogs. The term used here is "Mannschärfe," which translates into man sharpness. The definition of this quality states the following. The quality in the dog that leads him to actively confront any apparent, feigned, or actual threat from a person in a hostile manner. If I were to use terminology I have already discussed in this article I would say that sharpness could be equated to showing an active defense reaction to a real or perceived threat.
> 
> I did a fair bit of research and could not find anything written that stated that this quality has to come together with a low stimulation threshold for threat. So in fact how easily a dog is triggered does not seem to be a factor by definition. But to be fair, when I was growing up, the dogs we called sharp were the ones that would become very aggressive without much provocation. One thing that I never thought of when I used the term sharp was spooking away. In the old East German Koerung system, sharpness was rated from 0-5 with 5 being the most desirable. So when did sharpness become a bad thing? I don't know. I don't think it is a bad thing.*


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## Joby Becker

Everyone says that there is a big difference between how a dog might react to another dog, animal, and a human, which is true, I agree, and that is where sharpness towards those things comes into play, by definition..for me... for instance, the lines of some of the Presa I had, were man sharp, and also dog/game sharp. Some pitbulls are man sharp, others would not bite a person by choice unless cornered and beaten.

I have come accross molloser and bullbreed types of dogs that are bring those some animal fighting traits to the table, but have low inhibition to use that "sharpness" towards people too...basically just meaning that the dog will work on man or fur with comparable fervor, and others that are better for the manwork, than fur.


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## Kadi Thingvall

This 


Michael Murphy said:


> the reason i don't like very social dogs


and this


> to an extent terratorial aggression


are not mutually exclusive. 

and social does not necessarily mean this



> is because i find the idea of someone being able to walk into my yard , put a leash on my dog and walk of with him :-&.......


One of the most social dogs I've owned was also one of the most territorial dogs I've owned. Out and about she was very friendly with everyone. People over for a BBQ and she was the life of the party. Put her behind a fence and she was all business and quite nasty. I have zero doubt she would have hurt someone. Same thing if she decided someone was a threat though when out and about, and she wasn't a dog who would fire up one minute then be giving hugs and kisses the next, if she decided you were a threat, you were a threat. If I told her to leave you alone (the few times we tested her civil, after the test was over) she would be neutral with you, but she kept a very close eye on you. And you weren't going to win her over with cookies.


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## Maureen A Osborn

I agree with Joby. I too have had more molossers than herders and have boar hunted with them. If any of them werent to have fired up at the sight of a live hog, theyd be a cull. They were bred to be animal dominant/ aggressive, just as a some breeds are bred to be man dominant/aggressive. Does not necessarily mean they are fearful, but want to dominate/ fight their adversary. When u send a dog in on a bite to a passive decoy, thete is no threat...so why is the dog still want to engage and fight the decoy? Genetics of the purpose of that breed/lines.


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## Maureen A Osborn

Forgot to add one more thing about the hunting dogs used to hunt large and dangerous game...ones that are meant to catch and hold, ie, AB's, dogos, presas.....more often than not, they will go after livestock(cattle, horses, etc) because it is their innate drives pushing them to catch and fight a large, four legged animal(without provocation)...they dont know the difference usually until you "trashbreak" them, usually by a "come to Jesus" meeting... one or 2 of those, they are usually good to go, if not, they get culled.


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## Joby Becker

Maureen A Osborn said:


> Forgot to add one more thing about the hunting dogs used to hunt large and dangerous game...ones that are meant to catch and hold, ie, AB's, dogos, presas.....more often than not, they will go after livestock(cattle, horses, etc) because it is their innate drives pushing them to catch and fight a large, four legged animal(without provocation)...they dont know the difference usually until you "trashbreak" them, usually by a "come to Jesus" meeting... one or 2 of those, they are usually good to go, if not, they get culled.


I bought dogs that were used for catching cattle before, by beef cattle farmers in rural Spain.

we ar far off of topic now though


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## Maureen A Osborn

LOL, true Joby, forgot about dogs used to catch and drove cattle....down here, though, if you are hunting hogs on farmland and your dog catches a cow, your dog is getting shot on the spot by the farmer and you will owe him money for damage to his livestock. just getting into the whole innate drives thing. Do I believe that there are "sharp" dogs that have a fear component, yes......do I feel that it is correct to classify all dogs that might be sharp nerve bags, no. Like I said, I am not an expert, but people forget about innate drives and what was bred into the dog to compel it to do what it does, as well as the various maturing phases a dog goes through, etc, etc.


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## Michael Murphy

Kadi Thingvall said:


> This
> 
> and this
> 
> are not mutually exclusive.
> 
> and social does not necessarily mean this
> 
> One of the most social dogs I've owned was also one of the most territorial dogs I've owned. Out and about she was very friendly with everyone. People over for a BBQ and she was the life of the party. Put her behind a fence and she was all business and quite nasty. I have zero doubt she would have hurt someone. Same thing if she decided someone was a threat though when out and about, and she wasn't a dog who would fire up one minute then be giving hugs and kisses the next, if she decided you were a threat, you were a threat. If I told her to leave you alone (the few times we tested her civil, after the test was over) she would be neutral with you, but she kept a very close eye on you. And you weren't going to win her over with cookies.


ok i didn't structure my sentence properly, i mentioned those traits because a dog is less likely to get stolen if it has them. 
and by loyal dog (completely seperate from the first sentence) i mean a one man dog....


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## Haz Othman

Michael Murphy said:


> ok i didn't structure my sentence properly, i mentioned those traits because a dog is less likely to get stolen if it has them.
> and by loyal dog (completely seperate from the first sentence) i mean a one man dog....


My gfs chihuahua is a one man dog, the lil bitch hates me to this day. When i come into the house she still snarles and barks. Also is very sharp..when we first got her she bit the shit out of me till I showed her the error of her ways. She is a nerve bag PITA but the gf loves her.. My last female gsd was also a one man dog. She was a sharp as shit fear biter. Barking, teeth the whole nine yards..really impressed those who didnt know better they thought she was hardcore had some prey drive too. Underneath it all..coward.

Best dog i ever had was a female shepherd that was so social i used to take her to the group home for behaviorally challenged kids. Yet on two occassions when someone tried to break in she went insano. Teeth, barking etc. Having a one man Arko type dog sounds cool bit in reality would be a hassle.. I also have the feeling your more likely to end up with a nerve bag then Arko reborn. If i were you id go for something thats neutrel or social if the dog has it genetically she has it and no one will steal it from you.


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## Alice Bezemer

Michael Murphy said:


> ok i didn't structure my sentence properly, i mentioned those traits because a dog is less likely to get stolen if it has them.
> and by loyal dog (completely seperate from the first sentence) i mean a one man dog....


You seem to have this idea in your head that a good dog should snarl and growl, show anger and teeth, spit venom and basically be an unsociable bastard that does nothing but pace the perimiter of your yard all day?

Sad fact is that 99% of these type of dogs are useless and mostly unreliable... Stressed out freaks afraid of their own shadows. 

A one man dog, loyal and trustworthy.... does not have to be this type of animal that paces itself into oblivion, Michael. You have a very skewerd view on what a good dog is or should be. You seem to keep coming back to KNPV dogs as if they are the end all answer to anything and I wonder if you think that KNPV dogs are these snarling beasties that growl at everything that moves?

A good dog, loyal and trustworthy does not have to snarl and growl, does not have to pace or feel the need to protect 24/7/365, is not always a one man dog... The best dogs I have seen in my lifetime were the ones that sat there, not blinking or flinching, on the outside not seeming to have a care in the world but by the look on their mug you could tell...go to far and you are ****ed!


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Not every dog that is a one person dog is a nerve bag or fear biter or otherwise unstable. Have had some very aloof, yet very socially reliable dogs. I think the Winkler "manscharfe" definition is the one to keep in mind.

T


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## Michael Murphy

Alice Bezemer said:


> You seem to have this idea in your head that a good dog should snarl and growl, show anger and teeth, spit venom and basically be an unsociable bastard that does nothing but pace the perimiter of your yard all day?
> 
> Sad fact is that 99% of these type of dogs are useless and mostly unreliable... Stressed out freaks afraid of their own shadows.
> 
> A one man dog, loyal and trustworthy.... does not have to be this type of animal that paces itself into oblivion, Michael. You have a very skewerd view on what a good dog is or should be. You seem to keep coming back to KNPV dogs as if they are the end all answer to anything and I wonder if you think that KNPV dogs are these snarling beasties that growl at everything that moves?
> 
> A good dog, loyal and trustworthy does not have to snarl and growl, does not have to pace or feel the need to protect 24/7/365, is not always a one man dog... The best dogs I have seen in my lifetime were the ones that sat there, not blinking or flinching, on the outside not seeming to have a care in the world but by the look on their mug you could tell...go to far and you are ****ed!


when did i ever say that???????????????????????? lol . your puttin words in my mouth, i just like dogs to be a bit less social ( a lot of nvbk guys seem to as well)


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## mike suttle

Michael Murphy said:


> i just like dogs to be a bit less social ( a lot of nvbk guys seem to as well)


Hey Michael,
Just out of curiosity, what guys want unsocial dogs?
I have owned a few unsocial dogs, and currently own a female who is an unsocial bitch with new people. I can tell you from first hand experience I much prefer social dogs, and we do all we can do to breed very stable, social puppies here. All of my clients who are serious about working dogs, and understand dogs well, will buy only social, strong working dogs. I very seldom ever buy unsocial dogs anymore, even though I can buy them much cheaper in Holland than the social dogs we buy.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Maybe Michael should give his definition of 'less social'

T


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## Michael Murphy

mike suttle said:


> Hey Michael,
> Just out of curiosity, what guys want unsocial dogs?
> I have owned a few unsocial dogs, and currently own a female who is an unsocial bitch with new people. I can tell you from first hand experience I much prefer social dogs, and we do all we can do to breed very stable, social puppies here. All of my clients who are serious about working dogs, and understand dogs well, will buy only social, strong working dogs. I very seldom ever buy unsocial dogs anymore, even though I can buy them much cheaper in Holland than the social dogs we buy.


but for the purpose of your program you need a social dog, that needs to be able to change handlers . and as most knpv dogs are sold to the police, an antisocial dog would abviously be harder to handle and hence harder to place. i don't like a dog that "loses it's mind" every time is sees a stranger, but i do prefer a dog that is not going to look for pats from everybody and a dog that some random guy can come and put a leash on and walk of with it. i guess i have a bit of a nvbk mentality


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## Maureen A Osborn

OK, so lets define "social'. Social to me is one that wants/seeks attention from others, let it me dog or human.Neutral is one that could care a less, does not seek attention nor preferably want it, but will allow to be pet. My late Katy was so social (dog or human) that she would rather socialize than work or bite, and she WAS a nerve bag cause she had very little to any recovery from gunshots, thunder, anything new in her environment. Melee will check out a new person, sniff to see if they have food and if not, could care less about the person (neutral). Can be pet if approached slowly by a stranger. NOw will not react unless f*cked with or you try to take whatever she has (stranger only, gives up ownership to us)...so very possessive. She also has levels of reactivity, depending on the circumstance. If there is something new in normal environment, she will alert to it(bark,not defensively, no teeth bared or growling), but will then go up to it on her own(ears and tail up) sniff, check it out, and then be done with it and walk away. A nerve bad sharp dog does not have different levels, they react the same to all things it does not like(afraid of), and does not recover....nor will it allow the person that it just lit off on to pet it at all at any point. I prefer Melee over Katy 100 x over.


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## leslie cassian

Michael Murphy said:


> and by loyal dog (completely seperate from the first sentence) i mean a one man dog....


Really, really glad I got over needing the ego stroke of having a dog that loves me and only me. 

When I worked for a canine security guard company, there were dogs that went nuts when you went near their kennels and dogs that wagged their tails hoping you'd take them. Either reaction, with only rare exceptions (the really nutty dogs that only one handler would work), if you popped the kennel door, you could leash up and take the dog. Good dog or not to have by your side on a shift had little to do with how territorial they were about their cage. 

I just don't get you. I think at this point, any dog you get is either going to eat you alive or be a crashing disappointment because it doesn't.


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## mike suttle

Michael Murphy said:


> but for the purpose of your program you need a social dog, that needs to be able to change handlers . and as most knpv dogs are sold to the police, an antisocial dog would abviously be harder to handle and hence harder to place. i don't like a dog that "loses it's mind" every time is sees a stranger, but i do prefer a dog that is not going to look for pats from everybody and a dog that some random guy can come and put a leash on and walk of with it. i guess i have a bit of a nvbk mentality


There are very few dogs that you can't put a leash on and walk away with.


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## Michael Murphy

mike suttle said:


> There are very few dogs that you can't put a leash on and walk away with.


There was this rottweiler and doberman guy i was talking to, and he said that's the one reason he has not changed over to malinois. the lines of rottweilers he has apparently very hard to walk away with.....


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## Haz Othman

Aloof or neutrel is not un social..its ambivelent..the dog isnt dping anything to the unthreatening people unless provoked, I got no issue with that.

I think its fairly clear from my limited experience and what people with more experience post on here and say at my club the vast majority of ACTIVELY unsocial dogs by that I mean unwarrented displays of aggression have nerve issues.


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## Joby Becker

Haz Othman said:


> Aloof or neutrel is not un social..its ambivelent..the dog isnt dping anything to the unthreatening people unless provoked, I got no issue with that.
> 
> I think its fairly clear from my limited experience and what people with more experience post on here and say at my club the vast majority of ACTIVELY unsocial dogs by that I mean unwarrented displays of aggression have nerve issues.


I agree with this, an NO, I am not contradicting anything I said earlier by agreeing with this.


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## Maureen A Osborn

Correct Haz....I just feel sometimes you need to put that broader definition out there so people understand that instead of just saying its black or white (ie sharp dog/unsocial dog/aloof, etc=nerve bag)


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## Meg O'Donovan

Michael Murphy said:


> There was this rottweiler and doberman guy i was talking to, and he said that's the one reason he has not changed over to malinois. the lines of rottweilers he has apparently very hard to walk away with.....


Are his dogs ever allowed out of kennel or off property? What work do they do?


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## Joby Becker

Michael Murphy said:


> There was this rottweiler and doberman guy i was talking to, and he said that's the one reason he has not changed over to malinois. the lines of rottweilers he has apparently very hard to walk away with.....


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## Derek Milliken

leslie cassian said:


> I just don't get you. I think at this point, any dog you get is either going to eat you alive or be a crashing disappointment because it doesn't.


I don't get you either. You say you talk to all these people and come up on the forums to learn. There are people on this forum who know far more about the lines you're interested in than you or I EVER will. People who've actually seen the dogs that you youtube relentlessly. People who have worked those dogs or direct descendants of those dogs. And not just one or two, but several of those people.

Yet when their opinions conflict with yours, you ignore or change the subject. So who ARE you learning from?

I suspect Leslie is absolutely right, either way, you're going to be horribly disappointed with whatever pup you end up getting  Best of luck Michael.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

I understand everyone's knee jerk reactions to some of Michael's thoughts but I've lived most of my life with aloof, neutral dogs that absolutely reliable in public but you couldn't put a lead on them and walk off with them. As far as GSDs go, this used to be the norm. Has something changed? To me its not about a ego stroke to have a dog that is loyal to his handler or his family. Our GSDs and bouvs have been this way. I guess from a work situation, its convenient for some of you that the dog will go with anyone that opens the kennel, but that's not what I would want in some breeds/dogs. Interesting. . .

T


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## mike suttle

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> I understand everyone's knee jerk reactions to some of Michael's thoughts but I've lived most of my life with aloof, neutral dogs that absolutely reliable in public but you couldn't put a lead on them and walk off with them. As far as GSDs go, this used to be the norm. Has something changed? To me its not about a ego stroke to have a dog that is loyal to his handler or his family. Our GSDs and bouvs have been this way. I guess from a work situation, its convenient for some of you that the dog will go with anyone that opens the kennel, but that's not what I would want in some breeds/dogs. Interesting. . .
> 
> T


 There are still plenty of dogs out there who wont let strangers approach them. But simply based on my experience in testing many dogs for dual purpose work, and putting enough pressure on them in testing to see where their thresholds were I have formed an opinion that would be hard to get me to change. On any given buy trip to Europe If I take 25 very social KNPV dogs and test them very hard a lot will fail to stay in the fight when the pressure really gets put on them. If I take 25 very civil KNPV dogs who wont let people approach them a lot more will fail the same testing. I have seen this time, and time, and time, and time again.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

mike suttle said:


> There are still plenty of dogs out there who wont let strangers approach them. But simply based on my experience in testing many dogs for dual purpose work, and putting enough pressure on them in testing to see where their thresholds were I have formed an opinion that would be hard to get me to change. On any given buy trip to Europe If I take 25 very social KNPV dogs and test them very hard a lot will fail to stay in the fight when the pressure really gets put on them. If I take 25 very civil KNPV dogs who wont let people approach them a lot more will fail the same testing. I have seen this time, and time, and time, and time again.


I'm not talking about not letting strangers approach them. All my dogs can be approached by strangers and petted by them. They just ignore them and most of them don't seek attention from strangers. Khira is probably the least aloof of all the dogs I've had in the past 20 years. All love kids. Its like seeing young puppies snarling on here and staring people down and they are labeled "serious." For me, that's fear based. I want to see puppies/young dogs approach anything and anybody with confidence. Aloof/neutral sets in later. That type of dog is still approachable by a stranger and reliable in public situations. What concerns me is the statement that anyone can open the kennel and put a lead on the dog and walk off with them. That's something totally different to me. I also understand what you want for the purpose dogs you need for your customers. Its also not hard for me to believe in terms of your distinctions between degree of civil and how that impacts fight drive. With Michael's use of terms, a lot of things get confused. Civil has been defined as a dog that will bite without equipment present. Then there is the American version of "sharp" which can be more of situational reactivity to low threshold defense. For me the "scharfe" definition could encompass what you are looking for--fight drive as a response to a threat or pressure which are generally interchangeable to me. The scharfe dog is still capable of social reliability.

T


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## Haz Othman

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> I'm not talking about not letting strangers approach them. All my dogs can be approached by strangers and petted by them. They just ignore them and most of them don't seek attention from strangers. Khira is probably the least aloof of all the dogs I've had in the past 20 years. All love kids. Its like seeing young puppies snarling on here and staring people down and they are labeled "serious." For me, that's fear based. I want to see puppies/young dogs approach anything and anybody with confidence. Aloof/neutral sets in later. That type of dog is still approachable by a stranger and reliable in public situations. What concerns me is the statement that anyone can open the kennel and put a lead on the dog and walk off with them. That's something totally different to me. I also understand what you want for the purpose dogs you need for your customers. Its also not hard for me to believe in terms of your distinctions between degree of civil and how that impacts fight drive. With Michael's use of terms, a lot of things get confused. Civil has been defined as a dog that will bite without equipment present. Then there is the American version of "sharp" which can be more of situational reactivity to low threshold defense. For me the "scharfe" definition could encompass what you are looking for--fight drive as a response to a threat or pressure which are generally interchangeable to me. The scharfe dog is still capable of social reliability.
> 
> T


 
I dont think anyone has an issue with neutrel dogs, its the ones at the other end of the spectrum that are under discussion.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Both Joby and Maureen have Arko descendants. They both agree that if you walk up and stare them down or stomp a foot at them, it will trigger an aggression response. Fear based? Low thresholds? I can recall several people discussing the new Sch rules and that the judge will touch the dog and how some dogs would not allow petting by a stranger. Fear based? Or, before you characterize the dog, do you need to know more about his character and how he deals with the world?

T


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## mike suttle

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Both Joby and Maureen have Arko descendants. They both agree that if you walk up and stare them down or stomp a foot at them, it will trigger an aggression response. Fear based? Low thresholds? I can recall several people discussing the new Sch rules and that the judge will touch the dog and how some dogs would not allow petting by a stranger. Fear based? Or, before you characterize the dog, do you need to know more about his character and how he deals with the world?
> 
> T


I think every dog I have in my kennel today would likely show an aggressive response if you walked up, stared them down, and stompled a foot at them. But I also know that anyone can take Joby's dog out of her kennel and walk away with her, and I'd bet the same can be said for Maureen's dog as well. I know that of the 40 dogs I have here today only one would bite a stranger who opened her kennel gate, and she is nowhere near as strong in the bitework as the ones who would happily go with a stranger.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

mike suttle said:


> I think every dog I have in my kennel today would likely show an aggressive response if you walked up, stared them down, and stompled a foot at them. But I also know that anyone can take Joby's dog out of her kennel and walk away with her, and I'd bet the same can be said for Maureen's dog as well. I know that of the 40 dogs I have here today only one would bite a stranger who opened her kennel gate, and she is nowhere near as strong in the bitework as the ones who would happily go with a stranger.


 
One thing that has not been said is that all these traits are separate. Just because you have one, doesn't mean you will have the other. For me, the reaction to an eye stomp and the stare is not necessarily fear based. That's provocation/threat/pressure. Open the kennel gate and try to put a lead on her to take her from her territory are two different things. I think territoriality is completely separate from bite work but I have a hard time believing that there aren't dogs out there that are both territorial and strong in the bite work. Again, we start getting into a variety of traits from reaction to provocation/threat/pressure to territoriality. 

T


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## Joby Becker

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Both Joby and Maureen have Arko descendants. They both agree that if you walk up and stare them down or stomp a foot at them, it will trigger an aggression response. Fear based? Low thresholds? I can recall several people discussing the new Sch rules and that the judge will touch the dog and how some dogs would not allow petting by a stranger. Fear based? Or, before you characterize the dog, do you need to know more about his character and how he deals with the world?
> 
> T


almost any stranger can pet my dog, as I have said the dog is fairly social. Just today she was getting some love from the neighbors children when I came back from a walk.
She has never shown inappropriate aggression towards strangers outside the home, a few times I decided to not let certain people pet the dog, as I thought it better to just skip it....like the creepy old guy neighbor that walked between the yards and came up on us...and was staring at her, using his high pitch friendly voice. trying to convince the dog that he was her best pal, smiling at her with his big bestest smile, well before getting close to us, and the dog was eyeballing her.


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## Joby Becker

> Originally Posted by Terrasita Cuffie
> Both Joby and Maureen have Arko descendants. They both agree that if you walk up and stare them down or stomp a foot at them, it will trigger an aggression response. Fear based? Low thresholds? I can recall several people discussing the new Sch rules and that the judge will touch the dog and how some dogs would not allow petting by a stranger. Fear based? Or, before you characterize the dog, do you need to know more about his character and how he deals with the world?
> 
> T


these are also two separate things..an obvious threat, and judge approaching and touching a dog at a trial.

I do believe that it would not take much work at all, if I was interested in doing so, to make the dog much less trusting and less social with strangers..


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## Joby Becker

Joby Becker said:


> almost any stranger can pet my dog, as I have said the dog is fairly social. Just today she was getting some love from the neighbors children when I came back from a walk.
> She has *never shown inappropriate aggression towards strangers outside the home*, a few times I decided to not let certain people pet the dog, as I thought it better to just skip it....like the creepy old guy neighbor that walked between the yards and came up on us...and was staring at her, using his high pitch friendly voice. trying to convince the dog that he was her best pal, smiling at her with his big bestest smile, well before getting close to us, and the dog was eyeballing her.


when I say never, I mean as an adult, after her initial introduction to the world at large.


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## Christopher Smith

leslie cassian said:


> I just don't get you. I think at this point, any dog you get is either going to eat you alive or be a crashing disappointment because it doesn't.


This needs to be on a t-shirt.


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## jim stevens

Mine is much like Joby's, although she has a 'thing' about someone running up behind us when we're walking. I had a lady do that, then leaned towards her, the dog was watching, giving her the look, so I said, probably better not. She acted like I had offended her. I can down her, walk over to the people, call her over, and she's a pet at that point.


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## Michael Murphy

i wish some nvbk people would tell us about how their dogs are?


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## Chi Nguyen

Hey Michael out of curiosity, what exactly is the "nvbk mentality"? I saw you mentioned that somewhere in this thread but I don't think it's been defined yet.


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## Ricky Mav

Chi Nguyen said:


> Hey Michael out of curiosity, what exactly is the "nvbk mentality"? I saw you mentioned that somewhere in this thread but I don't think it's been defined yet.


Good question! I'm curious about what he means too.


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## mike suttle

Michael Murphy said:


> i wish some nvbk people would tell us about how their dogs are?


I have owned many NVBK dogs here over the years, I stopped buying as many of them because I saw a higher % of the with enviromental issues when they were out of drive. They normally were good biters, and large sized dogs but the ones I saw did not have great hunt / retrieve drive and they were a little too worried environmentally for the job we needed them to do. I have of course seen some that were super nice in all areas. At the end of the day it boils down to the dog, not the country of origin or the sport he is bred for. 
But no matter how you slice it, a "very sharp" dog is not as well suited for most jobs.


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## Ricky Mav

mike suttle said:


> I have owned many NVBK dogs here over the years, I stopped buying as many of them because* I saw a higher % of the with enviromental issues when they were out of drive.* They normally were good biters, and large sized dogs but the ones I saw did not have great hunt / retrieve drive and they were a little too worried environmentally for the job we needed them to do. I have of course seen some that were super nice in all areas. At the end of the day it boils down to the dog, not the country of origin or the sport he is bred for.
> But no matter how you slice it, a "very sharp" dog is not as well suited for most jobs.


That's pretty ironic because a good part of their program is based with dealing with 'environmental' distractions. I know that 'drive' can cover up a lot of issues but if it's a 'nerve' thing , I would think that they would shut down and not perform. When I had my pups, I made the 'environment' (strange places, noises, etc.) be their play/training ground. 

I agree, a very sharp dog can cause problems especially if they are not controlled properly.


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## mike suttle

Ricky Mav said:


> That's pretty ironic because a good part of their program is based with dealing with 'environmental' distractions. I know that 'drive' can cover up a lot of issues but if it's a 'nerve' thing , I would think that they would shut down and not perform. When I had my pups, I made the 'environment' (strange places, noises, etc.) be their play/training ground.
> 
> I agree, a very sharp dog can cause problems especially if they are not controlled properly.


The ones that I tested were fine in drive, but out of drive they were too aware of everything around them. Maybe I just tested many dogs of the wrong temperament, but the % of the KNPV dogs I tested have always been much better in that area.


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## Irene Howcroft

I have 2 PHI KNPV dogs, imported from Holland, one male and one female. They are both worked and are part of my breeding program.One is the daughter of Rudie Pegge PH 2 NATIONAL CHAMPION. I have had several working dogs imported from Holland that were KNPV working line . I have trained these dogs for dual purpose work and they are now working the streets as Police K9. It is not so much the line that is "sharp" often meaning "handler aggressive" It is the way these dogs are raised, developed and trained in Holland. The training is generally very harsh in Holland. A good Malinois will eventually give you his/her opinion regarding harsh treatment. It results in what people refer to as a 'sharp" dog. I have been hospitalized by a KNPV working line dog..not his fault, he had crate issues that I was not informed about. He was an excellent dog. The Dutch will often torment a dog in a crate to develop aggression. It results in all sorts of crate problems for the dog as well as suspicion of all humans. My K9 Rudy has taken 9 months for me to earn his trust. He is a strong, powerful extreme driven K9. I am the only person who can handle him. You couldn't pay me $10,000,000 for this dog. I will forever be careful around him even though he now trusts me.
I have bred K9 Fenna and her pups have extreme drive and extraordinary courage. They are fearless and at 12 weeks old one of these pups would have killed my cat had I not been present. They are raised in a very social environment and are very friendly. Had they been raised harshly, just like any strong confident Malinois they would let you know their opinions.
As with people nurture, environmental exposure, and training/education are what formulate the character and response to environment.


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## Ricky Mav

mike suttle said:


> The ones that I tested were fine in drive, but out of drive they were too aware of everything around them. Maybe I just tested many dogs of the wrong temperament, but the % of the KNPV dogs I tested have always been much better in that area.


Interestingly enough, my first Malinois was out of NVBK lines, he did have environmental issues that I had to 'nip in the bud' initially. As you stated, when he was in drive he was oblivious to the very environmental distractions that would get him when he was not in drive. I was lucky enough to have him from 8 weeks old, with age (2 or 3 years old) he matured and was pretty squared away. 
I got a DSx female from KNPV lines and she didn't have those issues.


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## Drew Peirce

10 million huh? 

So the moral of the story is treat them with love and affection and don't be harsh and you won't have to deal with any of this "sharpness", which is ultimately a result of "harsh" handling.

Think I got it, thanks


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## Irene Howcroft

Come on Drew..not everything is for sale...respect, fairness, good reward based training, socializing, praise and good ability to read a dog go a long way..compulsion and that is not balanced with the former has its consequences. Of course the genetics will contribute a great deal to the temperament. Handler aggression is invariably the result of inappropriate compulsion unless the dog has been very badly bred and is not balanced with prey, fight, defense and aggression. Some dogs have more trigger aggression that lies closer to the surface. How that is stimulated is dependent on how well the handler can read the dog and how that dog is conditioned in its training. If we are talking about high drive and not aggression then that is a different subject. Perhaps what is needed is a definition of "sharp".


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## will fernandez

Irene Howcroft said:


> Handler aggression is invariably the result of inappropriate compulsion unless the dog has been very badly bred and is not balanced with prey, fight, defense and aggression. Some dogs have more trigger aggression that lies closer to the surface. How that is stimulated is dependent on how well the handler can read the dog and how that dog is conditioned in its training. If we are talking about high drive and not aggression then that is a different subject. Perhaps what is needed is a definition of "sharp".


Couldnt a dog that is not balanced be considered sharp.


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## Irene Howcroft

Yes Will. I would consider a sharp dog in the manner that is being discussed here ( aggression very close to surface) as a dog that is not balanced. 
That said, imo, some of that sharpness may also be the result of conditioning, exposure and training.


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## Maureen A Osborn

OK, so just a lil bit that I was talking to Mario about today....he said he has seen a "sharp" phase in some young dogs, usually between 5-9 months, they are a bit insecure and not so confident....says there is a 50/50 chance of the dog coming around and outgrowing it and evening out. Didnt speak about older dogs, just young pups.


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## Michael Murphy

Chi Nguyen said:


> Hey Michael out of curiosity, what exactly is the "nvbk mentality"? I saw you mentioned that somewhere in this thread but I don't think it's been defined yet.


hay hows your female rottweiler doing?
nvbk guys prefer "not social" dogs. a bit more civil. and knpv guys like there dogs more social or neutral is probably the better world.


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## Kadi Thingvall

Michael Murphy said:


> hay hows your female rottweiler doing?
> nvbk guys prefer "not social" dogs. a bit more civil. and knpv guys like there dogs more social or neutral is probably the better world.


I think this is a pretty broad statement, the NVBK guys that I talk to like a social dog. They don't all have social dogs, but for the most part that is what they prefer.


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## Alice Bezemer

Irene Howcroft said:


> I have 2 PHI KNPV dogs, imported from Holland, one male and one female. They are both worked and are part of my breeding program.One is the daughter of Rudie Pegge PH 2 NATIONAL CHAMPION. I have had several working dogs imported from Holland that were KNPV working line . I have trained these dogs for dual purpose work and they are now working the streets as Police K9. It is not so much the line that is "sharp" often meaning "handler aggressive" It is the way these dogs are raised, developed and trained in Holland. The training is generally very harsh in Holland. A good Malinois will eventually give you his/her opinion regarding harsh treatment. It results in what people refer to as a 'sharp" dog. I have been hospitalized by a KNPV working line dog..not his fault, he had crate issues that I was not informed about. He was an excellent dog. *The Dutch will often torment a dog in a crate to develop aggression. It results in all sorts of crate problems for the dog as well as suspicion of all humans.* My K9 Rudy has taken 9 months for me to earn his trust. He is a strong, powerful extreme driven K9. I am the only person who can handle him. You couldn't pay me $10,000,000 for this dog. I will forever be careful around him even though he now trusts me.
> I have bred K9 Fenna and her pups have extreme drive and extraordinary courage. They are fearless and at 12 weeks old one of these pups would have killed my cat had I not been present. They are raised in a very social environment and are very friendly. Had they been raised harshly, just like any strong confident Malinois they would let you know their opinions.
> As with people nurture, environmental exposure, and training/education are what formulate the character and response to environment.


We do? Who told you our trade secret? Damn, I must have missed a whole part in KNPV training over the last odd 25 years! 

Before you answer, let me enlighten you... This is not something the Dutch do as you so eloquently put it... It serves no purpose other then a lot of irritation when having to crate or kennel the dog, something that pretty much all of us will not allow. Any dog that shows kennel/crate problems by lunging at the handler/owner quickly gets put in its place. 

Now, feel free to elaborate on your rather broad and quite ridiculous statement, I am all ears...


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## Alice Bezemer

Michael Murphy said:


> hay hows your female rottweiler doing?
> nvbk guys prefer "not social" dogs. a bit more civil. and knpv guys like there dogs more social or neutral is probably the better world.


What do you base this conclusion on? Did all the NVBK guys contact you telling you that they do not prefer social dogs? Did all off the KNPV guys tell you they like the opposite?

I think you are stuck on a large misconception here.

Just because people do not care if their dog is social or not when training such a dog does not mean the prefer such dogs.

I do not care if dogs are social or not, I train them and sell them and it is a non issue because the dog knows its place! It does not have to ba a social dog to be a working dog. It needs a handler who knows how to work the dog. LE and MIL prefer the social dog because the cross over to the new handler is easier then with a less social dog, this does not mean all the dogs they buy are social or not social...

You need to get of this blanket idea that when one person likes something one way suddenly everyone likes it! That is not how things work or are in the real world.


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## Michael Murphy

^ i know it's a big generalisation but that's all it was suppose to be. 25 years? how old are you ?


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## Alice Bezemer

Michael Murphy said:


> ^ i know it's a big generalisation but that's all it was suppose to be. 25 years? how old are you ?


:lol: Clearly older then you thought I was? I'm 44.

Never generalize, Michael. It leads you away from fact....


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## Selena van Leeuwen

Same as Alice on the crate/kennel issue...and i am involved in dogs (knpv, later also IPO) my whole 36.5 yrs of life...

I also don't care if the dog is social, that is what control is for..


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## Ricky Mav

Ik denk dat de dames uit Nederland echt het record zeestraat!


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## Alice Bezemer

Ricky Mav said:


> Ik denk dat de dames uit Nederland echt het record zeestraat!


You think the ladies from the Netherlands really the record SeaStreet? Try again! :lol:


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## Selena van Leeuwen

Ricky Mav said:


> Ik denk dat de dames uit Nederland echt het record zeestraat!


Dick will beat me with 40+ yrs ;-) of training dogs.


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## Connie Sutherland

Michael Murphy said:


> ^ i know it's a big generalisation but that's all it was suppose to be.





Alice Bezemer said:


> You need to get of this blanket idea that when one person likes something one way suddenly everyone likes it! That is not how things work or are in the real world.


A billboard post for you, Michael. 

JMO!


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## Christopher Smith

Connie Sutherland said:


> Your big generalizations are a big flaw in your thinking. JMO!


It's not a flaw at all. 

When he ask a stupid question like "what line of dog is the sharpest" no one answers. But if he says "all knpv dogs are sharp", someone comes in to correct him and they tell him what he wanted to know.


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## Ricky Mav

Alice Bezemer said:


> You think the ladies from the Netherlands really the record SeaStreet? Try again! :lol:


LOL, damn translator! Or did i make a typo?


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## Connie Sutherland

Christopher Smith said:


> It's not a flaw at all.
> 
> When he ask a stupid question like "what line of dog is the sharpest" no one answers. But if he says "all knpv dogs are sharp", someone comes in to correct him and they tell him what he wanted to know.


AH! Now I see ..... :lol:


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## Alex Scott

When I first started protection training I thought process, that a dog that was sharp in attitude was a dog that would give me what I was after in terms of protection work. After I saw more dogs I began to realize that the dogs with this sharp personality was usually indicative of the nerves starting to go and even though they would pass various nerve tests it was evident from the progeny that the sharpness was due to bad nerves, shaprness is in essence nervey suspicion. 

From what I have seen the dogs that are super in protection work and posses all strong traits like raw aggression, high defense, high intensity accompanied with rock solid nerves are able to settle in any environment making them social. My dog at the moment has more raw aggression than I have seen from any other GSD but the solid nerves make it so she doesn't need to be muzzled at the vet whilst getting injections. She is also very friendly towards most people and she goes to sleep when I take her to social environments such as the coffee shop or a football game. This is the norm with "real" protection dogs.

I have only seen one dog that was sharp and aggressive towards strangers with life changing protection which has led me to the conclusion that the dog you describe is really rare. Remember, a protection dog that cannot be taken to social situations isn't really a protection dog, a dog has to be there in order too protect you.


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## Joby Becker

one last thing...anout this "sharpness"

if it is due to poor or weak nerves, or not, can be pretty easily seen when putting in control work.


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## Alex Scott

Joby Becker said:


> one last thing...anout this "sharpness"
> 
> if it is due to poor or weak nerves, or not, can be pretty easily seen when putting in control work.


See I don't know if that is the case. Majority of the community view nerves as a pass/fail test, however its more ##/100. You are correct if the dog is 60/100. But a dog that has 90/100 nerves may perform well and pass all tests but it is obvious the nerves aren't as hard as another dogs because of their inability to defuse, awarding it with what a novice would see as sharpness.


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## Joby Becker

Alex Scott said:


> See I don't know if that is the case. Majority of the community view nerves as a pass/fail test, however its more ##/100. You are correct if the dog is 60/100. But a dog that has 90/100 nerves may perform well and pass all tests but it is obvious the nerves aren't as hard as another dogs because of their inability to defuse, awarding it with what a novice would see as sharpness.


what?

I do not understand how what you are saying relates to what I am saying.

My point was if a dog has weak nerves and character, this will be seen when control work is put on the dog.


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## Michael Murphy

does sharpness mean quick trigger? easily made aggressive?
cause thats how i always interpreted it


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## Joby Becker

Michael Murphy said:


> does sharpness mean quick trigger? easily made aggressive?
> cause thats how i always interpreted it


reread thread responses, you will see a difference of opinion on what the word sharp means, and how different people use the term.


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## Chip Blasiole

I have had my share of sharp dogs over the years and some were full of bluff and one was pretty good at wanting to bite anyone outside his pack, but I saw him under the pressure of two decoys shut down. So my general opinion of sharpnes is that it is a sign of a lack of confidence. Sharp dogs can be trained to be decent biters and look impressive to the naive, and possibly make better property protection dogs. I would not want a sharp dog again. I am looking for super confidence in my next dog.


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