# Pop Up Question



## Sandra King

Indra is scary good. We've done the pop ups three times so far and she's got it down already. She immediately comes back, indicates and goes straight back to the helper. Sometimes I have to initiate the indication because she's trying to give me "The Look". 

However, my problem is that she's so fast that pretty much nobody can keep up with her. She goes straight back to the helper and wants that reward. 

My helper said that she'll learn later down the road to wait for me, to come back, check where I am at because that is what her dog did. But my dog is not her dog. I know my dog. I told her to only reward her once I reach her and she said "You don't want that. She needs to get the reward once she gets to me." 

With all due respect, I disagree. I would like to go back to the basics, correct what we've done wrong and go from there. We all know that she can do the pop ups but it needs to be corrected NOW! She needs to learn to wait for me NOW. 

What do you think?


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## mel boschwitz

By "pop up" do you mean sending the dog back for a refind? You talk about your dog being too fast for you when going back, so am thinking maybe that's it?

We teach our refind dogs to do multiple go backs until they bring the handler to the victim all the way. In the beginning the dogs are treated at the initial find/go back, when they indicate on the handler, and then a final reward when they bring the handler to the victim, which in the beginning the runs are kept short enough that the handler won't ever be too far away. The reward on the final "find" is given by the victim to enhance victim loyalty and the desire to find. Once the dog is pretty solid on one "go back" we ask for a second go back if the handler is "too far off", and then a third, fourth, etc.. Once the dog is solid on the go back we stop rewarding on the go back and then only on the indication, and then soon only on the final "find"... This has worked with all of our dogs.

Don't know if this is what you meant tho.


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## Bob Scott

I'm with Mel on the recall refind training.

You said;
"She needs to learn to wait for me NOW". 

Sounds to me like you want a ton of control on the dog. Good, but that's a totally separate issue from the search training. To much "control" and you can mess with the dogs drive.
What is your experience with this and what is your handlers?


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## Jim Delbridge

If "Pop Ups" are visuals, you need to move away from these now. The intent is to train the dog to find the "victim" via scent, not visual. If the dog can't locate the "victim" by scent: 1) The problem is set up wrong, 2) The dog can't hunt or hasn't be taught to hunt....i.e. the rules of the game need to be changed, 3) The reward system isn't good enough for the dog.

You should never have any issues about backing up to basics. It actually should be part of routine training.

You can train the find-recall-2nd find by back-chaining starting with the 1)you and the dog go into the victim together and reward, 2) the dog is held by the victim and then released to find you and then you both go into the victim together, 3) the dog finds the victim, finds you, you both find the victim together.

Visuals should never be part of this training. Consider getting some camoflage burlap ground cloths to hide the "victim" with but allow lots of scent for the dog to pursue.

Just my opinion and there are many more out there,

Jim Delbridge


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## Nancy Jocoy

I am with Bob and Mel though you can give a "small" reward such as a tidbit of feed between multiple trips.......with the real prolonged reward being with you at the victim.

Jim, this is simply a trained indication problem and not scentwork

Well I guess a little scetnwork .... we did callouts though instead of popups. Not really different than a scented throw but folks can argue against that.....


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## LEE SCOTESE

Sandra,
I think you and I are in the same place with training. What I do is to pretend to walk past the subject after the initial refind, as if I didn't see my dog and the subject. (If I am in heavy brush I may not be pretending). This forces the dog to re-alert, assuming she wants to play. Sometimes after I walk past she does a good alert, sometimes just "the look". If I only get the look, then I remind her of her alert, and then we go back. There is no reward, aside from extra attention, until I see or talk to the subject. I think you are right - fix the problem now.


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## Jim Delbridge

I've seen way too many dogs made visual doing "Pop Ups" and way too many groups that linger on stimulus other than scent to keep a dog team coming that really should be encouraged to go elsewhere.
If this is simply a mechanics of the alert, that's part of the backchaining of the "victim" holding the dog. The handler calls the dog and cues the alert until the dog anticipates the reward. Once the dog is solid in anticipating the reward for the alert then the handler transitions into the dog has to find the victim that released it to get the reward After the proper recall and alert.

This is not rocket science. Encouraged visual finds will create more problems than they solve down the road. This is not apprehension work. 

I've hidden in such ways for search dogs that I'm easy to find for the scenting dog and a major problem for a visual dog. I've reached out and grabbed handler's ankles as they and the dog were circling me trying to figure out where I was as the dog just couldn't "hunt". This is nothing on the dog. It wasn't taught the right game and hadn't developed the right skils.

To go backchaining one further, the ALERT should be trained off-line from search work until it is ROCK SOLID, i.e. the handler barely starts the command and the dog does it every time. At that point, when the dog is coming back to the handler on a recall from a "victim", the handler can utter the cue, the dog does it without thinking, and the link in the chain begins to be forged. Do this 10, 20, 30, etc times in a row until the dog does the alert without command because the scenario is always victim scent, victim's release, find handler, alert.

The biggest problem with all of this is most search groups take shortcuts, the foundation (or link in the chain) is weak and when the scenario changes the dog has to think rather than react on a simple mechanical part of the process.

Go slow now, repeat, repeat, repeat.....if the dog is bored with the repitiion then it means the handler needs work at his/her reward system......later on, it pays lots of rewards.

Get rid of the visuals. It should all be scentwork.

I advocate puppy finds as repeated walks in the park where a helper moves ahead and ask strangers to just be off the side of the path with a reward. The puppy picks up their scent, walks to them, big party. This is simple imprinting when the puppy is at its highest learning stage (4-16 weeks). I do the same thing with human remains. If the puppy doesn't do this now, it's going to be a so-so search dog and we have WAY too many so-so search dogs out there.
The adult dog must become obsessed with human scent because that's all that's left when you're searching at 0200 in an ice storm for the kid that ran off into the woods. It took my butt two days to thaw out and unfortunately, that wasn't out of the norm. Dog had a blast though. We searched eight ponds in the vicinity to make sure the kid didn't drown. The area search dog teams missed the kid because he kept running from them and he had his dog with him to keep him warm. He was found in the morning walking down the road. 

Jim


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## Sandra King

> I am with Bob and Mel though you can give a "small" reward such as a tidbit of feed between multiple trips.......with the real prolonged reward being with you at the victim.
> 
> Jim, this is simply a trained indication problem and not scentwork
> 
> Well I guess a little scetnwork .... we did callouts though instead of popups. Not really different than a scented throw but folks can argue against that.....


I wouldn't say indication problem, more a reward problem. She was always rewarded before I got to the helper so she never learned to wait for me. 

I was told that we are ready to move on. Indra doesn't need the pop-ups at all. Once she understood what she had to do, she uses her nose instead of the visuals which is why I told the helper to stay down, Saturday, however I just don't feel ready. The indication needs to be worked on and the reward system has to be worked out as well. 

You've seen the video and knew exactly that the reward was given to early. I just don't want to move on to anything else before this is not worked out and rock solid. 

Another thing that bothers me is that I was told that she needs to be hyped up. She just doesn't need that. I want a dog that focuses on me before I send her out. I don't have to hype her up at all. Hype has nothing to do with drive in my book and yeah, I do want to have control. Control in "Down" means "Down"! When I yell down, she better goes into a downstay. Which is rather obedience than control.


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## Nancy Jocoy

Well, Jim I am going to agree with you on training the alert sequence before scentwork but runaways and pop ups are tried and true methods used by teams that have a significant find rate.

Just like a lot of detector folks imprint scent with throws (same concept) instead of buckets (not sure how you imprint HR) all to get the dog hunting. Visual throws progress to delay throws and then hides..


There are many ways to skin a cat.


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## LEE SCOTESE

If you have only done 3 of these refinds, you probably want to continue doing short problems. That way you can be patient and wait for the proper alert/refind/realert/etc., and watch for frustration in your dog. I agree with Jim - use scent.


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## Nancy Jocoy

Sandra I am DEFINITELY going to agree with you about not needing to hype the dog up.

If the dog HAS the drive then calming her down is actually better. A lot of folks have to resort to jazzing up the dog to get it crazy because the dog is low drive. Ritual, however, is a good thing. do it the same way every time.


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## Sandra King

Nancy Jocoy said:


> Sandra I am DEFINITELY going to agree with you about not needing to hype the dog up.
> 
> If the dog HAS the drive then calming her down is actually better. A lot of folks have to resort to jazzing up the dog to get it crazy because the dog is low drive. Ritual, however, is a good thing. do it the same way every time.


I agree. I completely agree. She does not need that at all and calming her down, focusing, makes it much easier. 

Can you give me an example of ritual?


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## Jennifer Michelson

I will also second the not jazzing up a drivey dog...I have a high drive slightly hectic dog because of early 'jazzing up'. Wish I had known better.... I warned a teammate not to jaz up their high drive lab (wanted us to bang on the crate at the car and run away to hide...). He now had a dog who barks frantically in the car and wears himself out...I currently have a high drive 18 month old that I am doing my damnedest to keep calm, I refuse to be rushed when working him. We stand, leashed, until he is calm and then we can begin working.

I dont have much of a ritual. We always use the same collar (with a bell), I do down my one dog before each search--it seems to calm him and focus him.


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## Sandra King

Yeah, with Indra, all you have to do to get her hyped up is to show her a ball or the tug. That is all it takes to get her into the hype which is why I wait until she calms down and focuses on me. She really doesn't need it. 

In the first couple of sessions I did hype her up but I noticed that it doesn't do us any good because she gets completely unresponsive if I do.


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## Nancy Jocoy

My HR dog works with or without a bell depending on conditions but I always 100% of the time sit him, look into his eyes, then whisper"where'd he go"

Couple more steps for dogs working with a scent article - and it is good for any dog to walk around the area first to get an inventory of all the scents there....All our air scent dogs are scent discrimiating so a bit different...


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## Jim Delbridge

Sandra, You can have too much obedience in search work such that the dog is always looking to the handler for the next step. I distant down is always good to have for safery reasons, but I'd back off a bit on the control. I use two directionals with my dogs, "back" and "this way". If the dog doesn't repond immediately, I don't get upset because what is to say that they are not working out scent that I can't see. I do expect them to respond over time or to exhibit scent behavior. If you have too much obedience then you can effectively pull your dog off a find as "You JUST KNOW where that victim is". Part of lots and lots of training (rather than once a weekend or twice a week that so many SAR groups do) is to be confidence in you of what the dog is doing.

That being said, I tell the handlers that I train that I am training them the ways that work best for me. Ultimately, these are their dogs and they should know them better than anyone else. The handler has to have the final say in the dog's training (versus military scenarios where a dog may be handled by several handlers). There are a lot of groups where the people training are doing the best they can and one should thank them for the effort, but they only know what worked for them. That's what seminars are for, aye?

If the dog has always been rewarded at the "victim", then go back to short problems where you are not far away and YOU DO THE REWARD. There will be a transisition period for the dog where it works out that it only gets rewarded when it gets the victim and you together. Anytime you change the rules, you must make everything else about the problem easier and just focus on the one new rule. That way the dog stays in a comfort zone and doesn't go into a barrage of guessing.

Nancy,
Runaways are fine to start with for about six weeks to convince the dog that someone is out there, but "Pop-ups" imply the dog doesn't know how to acquire scent. If that's the case, then the problem needs to be shortened to the dog's comfort zone and then distance gradually lengthened to where Pop-ups are never needed.
I visited one group where the 3 y/o GSD was obviously not working scent. I was radioed to whistle for the dog.....I was floored, but it was their show and I did what they asked. No surpise, the dog found me by my whistles. I'd never want that dog team to come looking for me as I just might be passed out and can't whistle.

Don't use buckets. Don't use devices that shoot out scent. Prefer to use no containers at all whenever possible. I don't train water work with scent machines. I've got lots of water finds. Just because lots of people use them does not make them great training methods, but simply de facto training methods. 

Jim


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## Jim Delbridge

Sandra, You can have too much obedience in search work such that the dog is always looking to the handler for the next step. I distant down is always good to have for safery reasons, but I'd back off a bit on the control. I use two directionals with my dogs, "back" and "this way". If the dog doesn't repond immediately, I don't get upset because what is to say that they are not working out scent that I can't see. I do expect them to respond over time or to exhibit scent behavior. If you have too much obedience then you can effectively pull your dog off a find as "You JUST KNOW where that victim is". Part of lots and lots of training (rather than once a weekend or twice a week that so many SAR groups do) is to be confidence in you of what the dog is doing.

That being said, I tell the handlers that I train that I am training them the ways that work best for me. Ultimately, these are their dogs and they should know them better than anyone else. The handler has to have the final say in the dog's training (versus military scenarios where a dog may be handled by several handlers). There are a lot of groups where the people training are doing the best they can and one should thank them for the effort, but they only know what worked for them. That's what seminars are for, aye?

If the dog has always been rewarded at the "victim", then go back to short problems where you are not far away and YOU DO THE REWARD. There will be a transisition period for the dog where it works out that it only gets rewarded when it gets the victim and you together. Anytime you change the rules, you must make everything else about the problem easier and just focus on the one new rule. That way the dog stays in a comfort zone and doesn't go into a barrage of guessing.

I've trained with people that hype up their dog before they send them. Myself, I have my dog jump out of the Xterra and say, "let's work." that's about it. The scent does the rest. I know the "hyping the dog makes the handler feel a lot more in the game." I think it comes down to if your dog hunts without you having to build it up. My young puppy I'm training has to have a hug before he starts working. I'm ok with that. He comes to me for that. I stroke him and tell him, "can we go to work now?"...and, he does.

Nancy,
Runaways are fine to start with for about six weeks to convince the dog that someone is out there, but "Pop-ups" imply the dog doesn't know how to acquire scent. If that's the case, then the problem needs to be shortened to the dog's comfort zone and then distance gradually lengthened to where Pop-ups are never needed.
I visited one group where the 3 y/o GSD was obviously not working scent. I was radioed to whistle for the dog.....I was floored, but it was their show and I did what they asked. No surpise, the dog found me by my whistles. I'd never want that dog team to come looking for me as I just might be passed out and can't whistle.

Don't use buckets. Don't use devices that shoot out scent. Prefer to use no containers at all whenever possible. I don't train water work with scent machines. I've got lots of water finds. Just because lots of people use them does not make them great training methods, but simply de facto training methods. 

Jim


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## Sandra King

As for obedience what do you consider too much obedience? 

Is BH level too much obedience? If that is the case than I have to highly disagree with you.

As for runaways, we don't do them at all. Our team abandoned runaways. We start out with find, indication, re-find.


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## Nancy Jocoy

Not overly fond of runaways myself but a lot of teams (including ours) succesfully use them. I agree they should be phased out. Personally I am still old school and would want to start tracking then trailing then scent discriminatory air scent............

We do train with a scent machine bubbles real low to avoid visuals and our team has had great success at pinpointing on approx 20 actual water searches. 100% find rate on known drownings. Less on speculative (where they don't even have a clue if a body is in the water, such as an abandoned car found in a parking lot at the lake)

Dont do the buckets but do like imprinting with throws. To me the buckets create a handler dependant dog.


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## Sandra King

We don't use any devices at all. 

Like I said, the helper doesn't need to pop-up at all because she is using her nose and pretty good at it. However, the only issue I have is, after she indicated, she flies back to the helper and nobody can keep up with her since she's really fast. And that is my main issue and what we need to work on. She doesn't come back, she's waiting for the reward. 

As long as she is in sight, I don't have an issue to keep up but we are still on short distances. What if we go to the long distance and she gets out of sight and I or anyone else, cant keep up with her? That's the problem I have.


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## Jim Delbridge

Too much obedience is when the dog is contantly looking back at the handler to find out what it has to do next. A friend of mine has a BH on her dog. It flips her off if scent is present, so I'm ok with it. It has to do with the amount of control the handler demands. It took me 18 months to break a handler of controlling his area search dogs for what he said was obedience. What it really meant was he wanted his dogs to search the area the way he'd search it if he had four legs. 
His dog would make a find, be coming back with obvious intent to alert, the handler would be frustrated because he had no idea where his dog had been, and directed the dog to search another direction. The dog, being very obedient, did as he asked as the human knew best. One time I went with the search group as a double blind. No one knew where the victim was except the victim. I watched the dog running back and radio'd the victim from some 20 yards away from the handler and asked, "he got you right?" "yea yea, sweet, ran in, circled past me as he just touched me with his nose." The rest of the people with us had me in tears because they wouldn't let me chew him out. They wanted to let him suffer. I wanted to help the dog who was doing it's job. We (the dog and I) suffered another 30 minutes before they'd tell him what he did. After that, they gave the hander to me to train. It was his dog and I could read it better than him as he was all about obedience. So, that's when I worry about too much obedience.....titles don't mean a whole lot to me. Certifications? yes. Titles are artificial and the U.S. has twisted Schutzhund into a sport instead of the breeding qualifier it was originally intended to be.

Jim


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## Sandra King

No, that is not what I am doing. I have no problems with her ranging. I am proud of her being as good as she is. She's only doing it since January and learned faster than quite a few other dogs on the team who are doing it for over half a year already. 

She searches. Nobody needs to pop up and I let her search without interfering. She comes back (last time she tried to give me the look and I initiated the indicator) and than she flies back to the helper. 

It's a good thing, right? But not when nobody can keep up with her and she gets out of sight. That is the only issue I have and that we need to get under control. She needs to either slow down or "commute" (is that the right word?) between the helper and me until I get there. 

That is all I want advise on. How do I get her to slow down after the indication or to commute between the helper and me so we can keep up.


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## Nancy Jocoy

Sandra King said:


> That is all I want advise on. How do I get her to slow down after the indication or to commute between the helper and me so we can keep up.


YOU speed up.....and THAT is one reasy why I work a cadaver dog 

The back and forth you just build in training by prompting it. After a few runs back and forth she will slow down.

I have to agree with Jim on too much obedience...too much direction. Let the dog learn early on to use its God given instinct to hunt and you learn how to read the dog.


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## LEE SCOTESE

Sandra King said:


> We don't use any devices at all.
> 
> She doesn't come back, she's waiting for the reward.
> 
> As long as she is in sight, I don't have an issue to keep up but we are still on short distances. What if we go to the long distance and she gets out of sight and I or anyone else, cant keep up with her? That's the problem I have.


Is your subject giving you dog any attention at all? If so I'd suggest a totally passive subject. 
Does the subject have the reward? I'd suggest removing the reward from them - you keep it. 
If you did not backchain the refind/alert, you MAY want to try just that bit - it worked for me to reinforce a refind-realert-refind. 
Also you may just need to wait a bit longer during the sequence. Have the subject be still and you be still, with everyone in sight of each other. It took my dog about 20 seconds the first few times while I just waited. Eventually she came back to me.


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## Sandra King

Nancy Jocoy said:


> YOU speed up.....and THAT is one reasy why I work a cadaver dog
> 
> The back and forth you just build in training by prompting it. After a few runs back and forth she will slow down.
> 
> I have to agree with Jim on too much obedience...too much direction. Let the dog learn early on to use its God given instinct to hunt and you learn how to read the dog.


That still doesn't keep me from doing the BH with her and or do obedience outside SAR training. She works independently without me interfering. Maybe we just have a different understanding of obedience, I don't know but I do want to be able to trust her when she's in the field and that comes with her going into the down-stay when I want her to go down, and to come back when I do the re-call. 

That can't possibly be to much obedience. Focus, Heeling, sit, down, stay, retrieving balls... if that is too much obedience it paints a sad picture...


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## Sandra King

LEE SCOTESE said:


> Is your subject giving you dog any attention at all? If so I'd suggest a totally passive subject.
> Does the subject have the reward? I'd suggest removing the reward from them - you keep it.
> If you did not backchain the refind/alert, you MAY want to try just that bit - it worked for me to reinforce a refind-realert-refind.
> Also you may just need to wait a bit longer during the sequence. Have the subject be still and you be still, with everyone in sight of each other. It took my dog about 20 seconds the first few times while I just waited. Eventually she came back to me.



I will try that by going back to the basic and do that first before I go back into the field with her. 

I did wait and was completely still two days ago. She simply went into the down, tried to crawl under the subject to get the ball because she knew the reward was there and she wanted to have it.


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## Jim Delbridge

Shorten the length of the problems while you fine tune the mechanics. If she gives you "the look", this means she thought about going the alert and that should be good enough(in her mind). This means she is having to think about what to do rather than doing it out of unconcious reaction due to repitions. 
Down the road, you should get into doing "moving victim" problems and you'll go through this all over again.
HRD handlers can wok on the mechanics seven days a week because we can place out our victims any time we want. See if you can find someone to hide for you just to work on the mechanics through out the week. Instruct these victims to be "scent sources only". Use a camo cover, put them in a box, in a tent, whatever such that you are source of all good things and not the victim. Down the road you have to manage a balance to maintain victim loyalty, but right now the treat the victim as a scent source only and the dog must bring you to the scent source for it to get the big party.
ONCE YOU THINK YOUR DOG IS BOMBPROOF on this (I mean be really really certain), then you can turn away from your dog as it's coming to you and see what it does. You want the dog to do everything it can to get you to recognize the alert. For me this is just the next step in training the alert. I was at one seminar where the scent source was in a pile of dirt out in the middle of a parking lot. easy, right? The handler had to dance around a van playing *sigh* disco while his/her dog was working. The dog had to make it painfully clear that it had a find. My dog had a bark alert. The music was about 100 dB. I could see her barking, but didn't hear it so I kept on dancing (ugly sight, painful for all). She finally came over to me, grabbed my pants leg in her teeth and drug me to the source, then barked again....and no, I had not trained her to do that, but the concept of getting the handler to the scent source was deeply instilled in her. and, no, I haven't seen this at a semianr since. At another seminar, they made me walk around in a large circle (50 ft radius) while my dog barked over the source. My dogs know I have the reward, so as I walked around in the circle, my dog's back legs move as she remained over the source such that her eyes were on me the entire time as she barked. My challenge was that she must bark for a full sixty seconds over the source before I could reward.

Realize that your dog will have to communicate to you in the dark, in the rain, in high winds, etc. That's why such training is necessary.

Jim


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## LEE SCOTESE

Keeping the reward with me has been working well for me and my dog. And really, that is how a real search would go. Once WE make the find I give the subject the toy and they get to reward her.

I did notice that my dog used to try to get the reward herself, especially if the subject/helper was not in direct control of the reward. IE. if they kept it under their shirt she'd come back to me, but if they stood on it or hung it in a tree, she'd wait with them.


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## Sandra King

So who really should have the reward? Should the helper have the reward or me or should we both reward? 

As of now, the helper is the only one that rewards and I simply encourage and do a happy dance, using my voice, petting and praising her, all while the helper is rewarding her. 

As for training during the week. That is my biggest issue. It's hard to find somebody to train with at all.


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## Sandra King

LEE SCOTESE said:


> Keeping the reward with me has been working well for me and my dog. And really, that is how a real search would go. Once WE make the find I give the subject the toy and they get to reward her.
> 
> I did notice that my dog used to try to get the reward herself, especially if the subject/helper was not in direct control of the reward. IE. if they kept it under their shirt she'd come back to me, but if they stood on it or hung it in a tree, she'd wait with them.


THAT is exactly what she's doing. As long as she knows, they have the reward she stays with them. So maybe it is better when I take control over the reward?


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## Nancy Jocoy

Sandra King said:


> That can't possibly be to much obedience. Focus, Heeling, sit, down, stay, retrieving balls... if that is too much obedience it paints a sad picture...


*There are different schools of thought on that.* At a basic level no, but in terms of formal finishes and turns and the dog constantly looking at you during obedience, I think so ... other do not. *Your dog your decisions.* My own observations was that dogs who had a whole lot of formal pattern obedience as in Schutzhund were watching handlers every move and not ranging. My heel is just walking loosely on the left.......


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## LEE SCOTESE

_So maybe it is better when I take control over the reward?_
I think so. You keep the reward until you can give it, or toss it to the subject. You can also play a bit of pickle, tossing the ball back and forth - just make sure your dog thinks it is fun.


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## Jim Delbridge

For this stage, the handler should have the reward. 

Jim


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## Nancy Jocoy

Jim Delbridge said:


> You want the dog to do everything it can to get you to recognize the alert. For me this is just the next step in training the alert. I was at one seminar where the scent source was in a pile of dirt out in the middle of a parking lot. easy, right? The handler had to dance around a van playing *sigh* disco while his/her dog was working. The dog had to make it painfully clear that it had a find. My dog had a bark alert. The music was about 100 dB. I could see her barking, but didn't hear it so I kept on dancing (ugly sight, painful for all). She finally came over to me, grabbed my pants leg in her teeth and drug me to the source, then barked again....and no, I had not trained her to do that, but the concept of getting the handler to the scent source was deeply instilled in her. and, no, I haven't seen this at a semianr since. At another seminar, they made me walk around in a large circle (50 ft radius) while my dog barked over the source. My dogs know I have the reward, so as I walked around in the circle, my dog's back legs move as she remained over the source such that her eyes were on me the entire time as she barked. My challenge was that she must bark for a full sixty seconds over the source before I could reward.
> 
> Realize that your dog will have to communicate to you in the dark, in the rain, in high winds, etc. That's why such training is necessary.
> 
> Jim


Jim, that is refreshing. Everyone wants the dog to stare at source but mine also knows I have the toy and he has to get me THERE and I have seen some manipulations..... once he stood on his hind legs like a meerkat on top of a burn pile because it was on the far side......and does a recall refind to me without prompting (well who would take it but my dog comes back to me and STARES at me I follow him, he spins over to source and sits, I will take that).....on a real search after 5 indications in a row (water) he knew where the ball was and bit my pocket. (because we only reward on confirmed hides)


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## LEE SCOTESE

As for the obedience, If my dog is in search-mode I try to interfere as little as possible - especially with voice. During a real search how much communication would you expect to need? (rhetorical question only)


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## Jim Delbridge

My current working dog and I worked a drowning four days after the victim supposedly went down. I asked if the guy was drunk and they told me, most likely. I said that he should pop up today then. Why don't I come next day if he doesn't? Next day was a holiday, so they needed him out of the lake today. So, I went down. Scent profile was odd for a drowning. Dog had scent, but acted like it was an area search dog. I was bumfuddled and asked the driver if we could go where they found his boat. We did and as we get closer, my dog is going ballistic. He was floating about 12 feet from where they found his boat. At that point, I stopped being a dog handler and became a death investigator, the body my jurisdiction. We rigged a harness up to carry the remains gently along side the boat, but I had to use an oar to keep it off the boat so it wouldn't bump and cause postmortem damage. I handed my dog his ball when he'd put his nose on the body, but at that point I became focused on my job. We had to drive the boat about 400 yards back to a boat ramp at a crawl so as not to damage my body. My dog, couldn't see the body due to the boat walls but knew it was there by scent. So, he'd come up to me, drop his ball, bark, then grab his ball and toss it up in the air to catch over and over and over again. The troopers driving the boat for me were trying not to laugh as we were approaching the boat ramp as he never stopped and his antics were becoming more inventive as we went. I considered it the best imprinting I could ever get, so it was a win-win for me.

Jim


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## Jennifer Michelson

In my opinion too much obedience is expecting obedience during search work. I want enough to manage to get out to the search area with out being dragged on my face and enough that when he is out of my area and I want him to move along with me a 'wooohoo' or whistle gets him to consider it. Outside of search work I have a reasonably high level of obedience--a semi-attention heel, flip finish, long down with owner out of sight, a solid recall with an 'emergency stop', I also expect them to have good house manners and 'leave it' when I say so. All adhere to NILF. But search work is as free as safely possible.

When I down my dog at the beginning of a search, I am not expecting him to give me any attention (and he wont-ever!), I just expect that enough of his brain is engaged that he can hear me. I dont do this with my HR dog, he doesnt need it, he is less independent and naturally wants to keep me 'in the loop'. He is as drivey as my live find dog, wants to work as much, but is less independent.

As for who has the reward--it depends on the dog, the level of training and what you are working on. Early on, when working on the alert (we have a dedicated bark alert), it was clear that my dog was way too excited by the reward for the victim to have it--he was too pushy. I decided to carry the reward to see if we could modify his behavior. Once we got the behavior where we wanted we went back to the victim having the reward.


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## Nancy Jocoy

I think you hit on a major point. A lot of it is not a formula...you have to adapt to the dog.


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## Nancy Jocoy

Where I have seen the obedience thing play in is when a puppy is not raised as a working dog but has many pet dog constraints placed on it then is brought in as a young adult with its head full of rules

And a dog that has learned to never leave its owner under any circumstance.

Lou Castle points to that with his ecollar training and the differences for search dogs .... as it is too easy to encourage handler dependance. I think that is all. I am not sure obedience in the right place is wrong but I have seen dogs completely ruined by it.


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## Jim Delbridge

I remember when my second dog passed her first 5-acre test. The evaluators showed me the area without my dog. There was very little wind, so I picked a corner. I took her off-lead, said, "go to work." She turned her head and started running. The evaluators turned to me and said, "What are we doing?" 
I replied, "I don't know about you, but I'm running. She has a down-indication and she won't leave source for anything." And with that I took off in her direction. Eight minutes later I caught up and she was laying on some folded over 3-foot grass. We met eyes and I nodded, waiting in place. The evaluators caught up, huffing and puffing. Once they caught their breath, they again asked, "what are we doing?" I said, "I don't know about you, but it looks like my dog 30 yards over there has made a find. I'm calling it." Taking into consideration their recovery time for air, total time to find was 13 minutes. As I said, she wouldn't leave source for anything......but also why I would prefer a bark indication. Of course, my puppy has decided that a bark isn't for him and is doing a down with the source between his feet. The search gods definitely have a sense of humor where I'm concerned.

Later on I ended up having to chase that same dog a half-mile to a find in strong winds. Fortunately for me, I kept her in sight most of the time.

My point is that I consider the dog in charge of a search once scent is present UNLESS we are working sectors and I'd be invading another search area. My dogs do know "Wait" to give me time to catch up.

Jim


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## Bob Scott

"To much obedience" totally depends on how you obtain that obedience. To much force and your taking down drive. 
The recall-refind should be done with very little distance between you and the victim. No search involved until it understands that part of the game. JMHO and others have done it differently. 
The team I was on did more runaways in the beginning but you can't get dependent on the dog "seeing" the victim.


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## Sandra King

I guess we have to agree to disagree when it comes to the Obedience. I want a reliable dog so I will continue with the Obedience outside SAR. However, when it comes up to SAR I do not interfere at any given time and she is not dependent on me at all. She doesn't do any of what you are describing and I know quite a few Schutzhund 3 dogs in Germany that are great RH dogs as well. 

Maybe we do have a different understanding of obedience. I just want a reliable dog I can trust and because I know I can trust my dog, I don't have any issues out in the field when it comes up her being off the leash and searching for the helper. 

It's what I've seen with quite a few people that the trust isn't there. They don't trust their dogs, call them back all the time which makes it hard for the dog to actually work. With obedience comes trust and if you can flip the switch, than it's perfect


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## Jim Delbridge

Sandra,
Best advice is do what feels right for you. I consider each working dog my "mistake dog" for the next one I train. My current working dog slows way down in scent because his forte' is historic work and he can find that one tooth if need be. The puppy will not be that way because I've eased back on the historic work with him. My intent is that I'll have five to six years where they will compliment each other. The young one will cover more area faster, but if the remains are are scattered little pieces then I'll switch dogs and work with the historic dog. Both have highly different personalities and I work them according to their personalities. Historic work can be very precise and people are suprised when the current dog seems to blow me off at times on a general search, but falls right in line working two-foot wide grids at my direction as I walk backwards to find the little stuff. It takes time to realize that he and I are always playing the game in unison and simply adjust to the "tempo" that's needed.

This is your first search dog, both of you have loads of learning to work through and no number of "experts" can convey to you what you'll have to learn by doing. In the time I've been doing this, it's been pretty steady that 1-in-10 dog handlers that start end up sticking with SAR for subsequent dogs. If their first washes out, most just give it up. If the first does well and the dog team is deployed, there are multitudes of hurdles both will have to overcome anyway, mostly dealing with the other humans than anything else.

You'll hear the term "intelligent disobedience" sooner or later. That's when the dog was taught the game well and overcomes the handler to make a find anyway. There was a recent recount of a search where the dog went completely out of the search area on the start. It's dark and the handler yells for the dog to recall. The dog blows her off and then can be heard barking. Even though the dog has a trained bark and stay alert, the handler's response to other handlers is, "what is he barking at now?" 
The handler tries a recall again then huffs and goes out into the dark to find her barking dog, right next to the victim who had fallen into a pond and couldn't get out. 
One of my teammates sent this to me with "now this is an example of what a search should be like!" My reply to him was, "NO, good dog. Sucky handler. The victim is lucky that the dog knew the game despite the handler." The handler can be proud that she did train the dog well. Now, she needs to be retrained to work with the excellant tool she created so that it can do it's job to the best of its abilities.

If she had succeeded in calling her dog off AND IF the "body" was found the next day with dog paws in the mud next to the "body", the victim's family would have had a potential law suit for the search group, the handler, law enforcement, etc. The law suit is a pain-in-the-butt for years to come, but saving the life is the real issue.

Jim


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## Nancy Jocoy

Jim, that was an excellent post.

It is exactly WHY I failed our first certification test with my 2nd SAR dog (first was a wash due to nerves)

Dog hit scent, took off, went out of sight and I finally suceeded at calling her back because "I" thought the victim was somewhere else. Then after I called her back and she FINALLY came she kept biting at sticks and jumping on me. 

Glad it was a training excercise.

At some point we all need "trust your dog" tattood on our hands


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## Bob Scott

Ditto with Jim and Nancy!
Also, don't always look at a disobedient dog being a training issue. It can sometimes be a lack of leadership skills with the dog. Not saying that's the case here! 
Yes on the Schutzhund III being able to do the RH. Still, the RH isn't a day long search or a life or death situation. It's another game that shows the "potential" that a dog may have to do search work.
My older dog is SCHIII, CDX, cadaver trained, boat trained, Article search trained, HT (herding), TT (Temperment tested) and CGC.
It's more about the connection WITH the dog then control over it! :wink:


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## Sandra King

Bob Scott said:


> Ditto with Jim and Nancy!
> Also, don't always look at a disobedient dog being a training issue. It can sometimes be a lack of leadership skills with the dog. Not saying that's the case here!
> Yes on the Schutzhund III being able to do the RH. Still, the RH isn't a day long search or a life or death situation. It's another game that shows the "potential" that a dog may have to do search work.
> My older dog is SCHIII, CDX, cadaver trained, boat trained, Article search trained, HT (herding), TT (Temperment tested) and CGC.
> It's more about the connection WITH the dog then control over it! :wink:


I know what you mean with the leadership. We had a lab on the team. While the handler could not handle the dog at all once you gave him to my fellow German, he was the best behaved dog on the planet. He actually heeled. Give him back to his owner and he's out of control. 

As for my bitch. I got her as a puppy from a very reputable breeder (Zwinger vom Sattelberg) right behind the German Boarder. 

Everything that dog knows, I taught her. However sometimes I have the feeling that she is "too good" for me and way ahead of me. She's ready, she learns so fast that she's ready to go further up the ladder while I am not. Does that make sense?


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## Nancy Jocoy

Uh, yes, the handler is usually the weakest link with a good dog.

Another hurdle you are going to have to face and probably have not yet is when it is dark out, the glowing collar fades into the distance, the bells go quiet and your dog is somewhere out there .... but even if you have Astro or tracking technology you are in terrain that will not transmit because there is a hill between you and the dog who is 1/2 to 1 mile away.

That is where the old ****-hunters wisdom comes in. Straight from the words of Denver Holder

"If she loves you she will come back and find you, if she doesn't, she wasn't worth keeping"

You have to be prepared to risk your dog's life to save a human life -- almost lost one about 2 years ago (dove into an eddy caused by floodwater which is where the child was) and today my team was just deployed on a search (I could not get off today  ) in the rugged NC mountains where high angle crews will also be working.


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## Bob Scott

""If she loves you she will come back and find you, if she doesn't, she wasn't worth keeping"

Gotta love it! :wink:


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## Joby Becker

Bob Scott said:


> It's more about the connection WITH the dog then control over it! :wink:


gotta love that too....


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## Nancy Jocoy

Have to agree with that as well. Probably the most satisfying part about working through an area with the dog is that invisible connection that you can feel even from 50-100 yards away. Still amazes me that a dog way ahead of you knows when you stop or make a turn - and moves accordingly if it is not on the scent but just scanning.....you know it is not visual.........


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## Jim Delbridge

This pertains to the "too much obedience" dilemma. I have a 3.5 y/o working ADT and 17 m/o ADT in training, both for HRD. Right now is when I want to place some on-lead obedience on the teenager, so when I'm not on-call, I take him up to the municipal park to work on basic obedience with lots of distractions. The working dog has been acting "left out", so last night I decided a refresher wouldn't hurt him one bit and took them both up to the park. 
I was out working the teenager on basic obedience, soing figure eights, heel, sits, downs, building stay time in various positions. This park also has a large activity center and I was out front of that going through the paces. For some reason I drew a crowd. The teenager is having a blast doing this and is quite a ham. We got compliments and I told them, "i'll be right back and show you wnat all our dogs should do."
I put up the teenager and let the working dog out. This place has lots of parking and there were softball games going on nearby, so traffic was steady. We went back to the community center doing downs at a distance, figure-eights through crowds, all the normal stuff and all off-lead. A little girl wanted to pet Murphy, so I released him. He went to her and was having a great time. She had a ball and toossed it. Murphy is high-ball drive and went after it. I yelled "WAIT!" as he started to step into the parking lot. I yelled "SIT!" from 50 feet away and he plopped as an SUV blew past going a lot faster than they should in a parking lot.

My point to all this is I haven't done obedience work with Murphy per se in...oh six months...but we've searched quite a bit and he knows his safety depends on me. After the SUVs passed by, I yelled "OK" and he raced over to where the ball was and took it back to the little girl. I then recalled him to me and looked to the crowd and asked, "now shouldn't all our dogs behave like that?" Their response was to look every direction but at me. I could have let them off the hook and said, "well, he is a working dog.",......nyah. I have to have that much obedience if I'm asked to do a vehicle search in a similar parking lot, but I've also have officers in the area to stop traffic in case he caught scent as then he knows he's in charge.

Yes, I do drive CGC class instructors crazy as I usually request to work off-lead by that point. If they request my dog be on-lead, I tend to tuck the end in my left pocket. Would my dogs get AKC or Schutzhund titles? No way, I don't train that way. I train for life, not artificial tests. I train to where my dog is safe anywhere, people are safe around my dogs, and communication is established to get our scent work done. There is no black and white best way. 
I spent hours in the Paris train station waiting for a train a couple of years back. This is a very busy station with shops, restaurants, ticket kiosks, and waves of people coming and going contantly. I observed multiple humans with their off-lead dogs (none of the humans had a lead in sight) where the dog and human were obviously in sync. The human could go into a restaurant and the dog would plop down at the entrance ignoring those coming by wanting to pet it. It's human came out and the dog got back up to trot along with the human. It was not a case of obedience work, the human took the dog's actions for granted and the dog was relaxed the entire time. I observed this in five different dogs in the three hours I was stuck waiting for a train.

This is where you should get with your working dog....in sync. If life was perfect, this is the way all dog owners would be with their dogs and the dogs with their humans. We wouldn't have "bad breed laws" nor "bubbas" with their pack of nearly feral dogs out in the front yard.

Just my opinion,

Jim


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## Sandra King

> I spent hours in the Paris train station waiting for a train a couple of years back. This is a very busy station with shops, restaurants, ticket kiosks, and waves of people coming and going contantly. I observed multiple humans with their off-lead dogs (none of the humans had a lead in sight) where the dog and human were obviously in sync. The human could go into a restaurant and the dog would plop down at the entrance ignoring those coming by wanting to pet it. It's human came out and the dog got back up to trot along with the human. It was not a case of obedience work, the human took the dog's actions for granted and the dog was relaxed the entire time. I observed this in five different dogs in the three hours I was stuck waiting for a train.
> 
> This is where you should get with your working dog....in sync. If life was perfect, this is the way all dog owners would be with their dogs and the dogs with their humans. We wouldn't have "bad breed laws" nor "bubbas" with their pack of nearly feral dogs out in the front yard.


Yeah, but even those dogs had to have some training at one point. You can't get in Sync with your dog without any training at all. Even Sync needs to be trained. If I go outside and expect my dog to wait at the frontdoor of a store without any training at all, it's not going to happen. As much as I want to be in Sync with my dog, if he doesn't know that I expect him to lay down at the front door and if I don't train that than they won't do it.


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## Jennifer Michelson

There is a huge difference between no obedience/training and too much for SAR. A SAR dog must be able to think on their own and be able to disobey their handler. If you train a dog to the point where it cannot act independently or disobey the handler when on scent..then that dog has too much obedience training. 

Too much obedience is completely dependent on the dog. It takes a good handler to know how far to go. It takes a good handler to know that there is a line.....And it takes a good handler to continuously be able to read your dog.....it changes over time and a good handler needs to adjust to the dog.

I have a very independent live find dog (I joke that the only reason he tolerates me is that I can drive him to training). But at 6 yrs old, I have called him off a victim in training. That was a huge shock for me. Now I adjust how I handle him, knowing that he is more obedient/attuned to me than before. My 18m old cadaver dog is naturally more attuned to me and while I do have a lot of ob on him, I am very careful in search training to allow him independence and keep ob out of it. I also pick very high drive, nutty dogs, so I believe I can get away with more ob. But you absolutely can have too much obedience on a SAR dog.


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## Jim Delbridge

Of course there has to be training on the dog to get it to the point where it will down-stay outside the store. That training should start on the first day you have the puppy/ dog and for the rest of it's life. It's called expectation-training. One doesn't get in sync with a dog by taking them to a trainer to train the dog and give it back. One doesn't get in sync with their dog by going to obedience classes once a week and doing their homework the day before the next training. I remember getting an offer to go do some free obedience work at a teammate's obedience school. I took my wolfdog and we did everything the entire class was to do, but off-lead. Someone asked about my dog and me, the trainer's response was, "well, you know Jim, he works with his dogs every day....." *sigh* No, I expect my dogs to behave within certain rules in applicable situations every time. It's simply part of living with them. If they don't, we deal with it right then and move on. I don't fix it next week or wait till class. I clarify the rules right then and now, praise the dog for getting it right, and we go on down the road.

This means you must internalize the rules to the point where you simply correct on the fly and keep moving. The teenager has a flat collar and loose lead. I had treats in a hand to reward him on my whim. The control came from my constant verbal feedback to him of good, bad, or enjoying the day. He starts to forge, I utter a little grunt. He moves back to my side, he hears a quiet higher pitched "yea." He gets it and heels nicely on his own, the treats begin to flow on a regular basis. The more he gets it, the less often the treats flow but the praise increases. It's not rocket science. No Cesar TV expert is needed. It's simply consistency of expectations and good timing.

One gets in sync with the dog by daily interaction. The rub with most people is they see this as work and find reasons to avoid it or put it off. By doing so, they teach the dog that obedience is not the norm but the exception. The smart dogs are always testing the boundaries. Labs seem to be the masters of this, always appearing mellow but also checking what the rules are. Once they know your rules then they establish what is outside your rules and develop their own. I admire this in labs and if their owner/handlers don't get it...well, it's on them.


Some dog owners seem compelled to string titles after their dogs' name. My friend that has a BH on her dog is now trying to get a CD. Her only obstacle is the dog breaks the one-minute sit-stay by lying down. She asked me what I'd do. I told her train a 2-minute sit-stay on her dog if she must get the title. I personally don't care what my dog does in a stay, sit, down, lie on his back with all four legs in the air. He stays, I'm happy. Stay should mean stay till I say otherwise or a piano is dropping on him from on high. That's not too much obedience, it's simple safety. Now, I've put my dogs in shade spots while I had to do something else at a scene. If the sun has moved and they are no longer in shade, I've had them break a stay to move over next to me. I see the spot is no longer shadey, understand their plight and move them to a new spot with a drink of water to boot. I think that's fair for the dog to do. It's not strict obedience, it's my partner working with me.

Jim


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## Sandra King

Jim Delbridge said:


> Of course there has to be training on the dog to get it to the point where it will down-stay outside the store. That training should start on the first day you have the puppy/ dog and for the rest of it's life. It's called expectation-training. One doesn't get in sync with a dog by taking them to a trainer to train the dog and give it back. One doesn't get in sync with their dog by going to obedience classes once a week and doing their homework the day before the next training. I remember getting an offer to go do some free obedience work at a teammate's obedience school. I took my wolfdog and we did everything the entire class was to do, but off-lead. Someone asked about my dog and me, the trainer's response was, "well, you know Jim, he works with his dogs every day....." *sigh* No, I expect my dogs to behave within certain rules in applicable situations every time. It's simply part of living with them. If they don't, we deal with it right then and move on. I don't fix it next week or wait till class. I clarify the rules right then and now, praise the dog for getting it right, and we go on down the road.
> 
> This means you must internalize the rules to the point where you simply correct on the fly and keep moving. The teenager has a flat collar and loose lead. I had treats in a hand to reward him on my whim. The control came from my constant verbal feedback to him of good, bad, or enjoying the day. He starts to forge, I utter a little grunt. He moves back to my side, he hears a quiet higher pitched "yea." He gets it and heels nicely on his own, the treats begin to flow on a regular basis. The more he gets it, the less often the treats flow but the praise increases. It's not rocket science. No Cesar TV expert is needed. It's simply consistency of expectations and good timing.
> 
> One gets in sync with the dog by daily interaction. The rub with most people is they see this as work and find reasons to avoid it or put it off. By doing so, they teach the dog that obedience is not the norm but the exception. The smart dogs are always testing the boundaries. Labs seem to be the masters of this, always appearing mellow but also checking what the rules are. Once they know your rules then they establish what is outside your rules and develop their own. I admire this in labs and if their owner/handlers don't get it...well, it's on them.
> 
> 
> Some dog owners seem compelled to string titles after their dogs' name. My friend that has a BH on her dog is now trying to get a CD. Her only obstacle is the dog breaks the one-minute sit-stay by lying down. She asked me what I'd do. I told her train a 2-minute sit-stay on her dog if she must get the title. I personally don't care what my dog does in a stay, sit, down, lie on his back with all four legs in the air. He stays, I'm happy. Stay should mean stay till I say otherwise or a piano is dropping on him from on high. That's not too much obedience, it's simple safety. Now, I've put my dogs in shade spots while I had to do something else at a scene. If the sun has moved and they are no longer in shade, I've had them break a stay to move over next to me. I see the spot is no longer shadey, understand their plight and move them to a new spot with a drink of water to boot. I think that's fair for the dog to do. It's not strict obedience, it's my partner working with me.
> 
> Jim


=D> 

Pretty much how I feel about it as well.


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## Nancy Jocoy

I like what I am seeing and agree here

Just got back from two back to back searches. To tired to pontificate.

Offlead, of course.


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## Bob Scott

Jim Delbridge said:


> Of course there has to be training on the dog to get it to the point where it will down-stay outside the store. That training should start on the first day you have the puppy/ dog and for the rest of it's life. It's called expectation-training. One doesn't get in sync with a dog by taking them to a trainer to train the dog and give it back. One doesn't get in sync with their dog by going to obedience classes once a week and doing their homework the day before the next training. I remember getting an offer to go do some free obedience work at a teammate's obedience school. I took my wolfdog and we did everything the entire class was to do, but off-lead. Someone asked about my dog and me, the trainer's response was, "well, you know Jim, he works with his dogs every day....." *sigh* No, I expect my dogs to behave within certain rules in applicable situations every time. It's simply part of living with them. If they don't, we deal with it right then and move on. I don't fix it next week or wait till class. I clarify the rules right then and now, praise the dog for getting it right, and we go on down the road.
> 
> This means you must internalize the rules to the point where you simply correct on the fly and keep moving. The teenager has a flat collar and loose lead. I had treats in a hand to reward him on my whim. The control came from my constant verbal feedback to him of good, bad, or enjoying the day. He starts to forge, I utter a little grunt. He moves back to my side, he hears a quiet higher pitched "yea." He gets it and heels nicely on his own, the treats begin to flow on a regular basis. The more he gets it, the less often the treats flow but the praise increases. It's not rocket science. No Cesar TV expert is needed. It's simply consistency of expectations and good timing.
> 
> One gets in sync with the dog by daily interaction. The rub with most people is they see this as work and find reasons to avoid it or put it off. By doing so, they teach the dog that obedience is not the norm but the exception. The smart dogs are always testing the boundaries. Labs seem to be the masters of this, always appearing mellow but also checking what the rules are. Once they know your rules then they establish what is outside your rules and develop their own. I admire this in labs and if their owner/handlers don't get it...well, it's on them.
> 
> 
> Some dog owners seem compelled to string titles after their dogs' name. My friend that has a BH on her dog is now trying to get a CD. Her only obstacle is the dog breaks the one-minute sit-stay by lying down. She asked me what I'd do. I told her train a 2-minute sit-stay on her dog if she must get the title. I personally don't care what my dog does in a stay, sit, down, lie on his back with all four legs in the air. He stays, I'm happy. Stay should mean stay till I say otherwise or a piano is dropping on him from on high. That's not too much obedience, it's simple safety. Now, I've put my dogs in shade spots while I had to do something else at a scene. If the sun has moved and they are no longer in shade, I've had them break a stay to move over next to me. I see the spot is no longer shadey, understand their plight and move them to a new spot with a drink of water to boot. I think that's fair for the dog to do. It's not strict obedience, it's my partner working with me.
> 
> Jim


Although I enjoy the competition side of dog training what you describe has always been first on my list of wants with all my dogs.
Go anywhere, do anything and you just expect the dog to do what's asked without having to worry if it's going to listen to you.
A good truck dog first and foremost!


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## Sandra King

Hah, I have my very first SAR Story... my dog amazes me each time and every day. I am blessed having a dog like her and she sure doesn't have any issues with the ranging. 

I now know what is ment with intelligent dis-obedience. Most of you know that we are only doing SAR since January. To calm her down, I make her sit and focus on me, before I send her out. I don't need a hyped up dog (it is one thing I disagree with my trainer, he doesn't want me to do it but in that case I really don't care what he says because it's proven me right already. When I calm her down, make her focus on me she works much better than when I don't do it and let her go frenzy). 

To make it more interesting for her, my friend hid underneath a camo blanket and went a little further out in the woods. Within a minute she had her. She rang the radio so we knew she had her and I was like "Ich fasses net (I can't believe it) Holy Cow... she's got her already"

Indra came back, indicated and lead me back. I followed her, she WAITED for me, once I catched up, she started running again, then she stopped, looked at me. I did NOT NOTICE the trail right behind her. It was a small trail and she wanted me to follow her that trail but I didn't realize it because I misread her and insisted of going straight. 
"Show me!" I said, and she ran along straight, going around in a circle and lead me back to my friend. 
My friend then said, "She was coming through here" and she pointed to the trail where Indra had stopped. And that is when it hit me. My dog wanted me to follow her that trail and I couldn't read her at that very moment. 

I read about intelligent disobedience and yesterday, I first-hand experienced it. I was told that she could easily pass the 5 Acres Test by now, however I do not want to do the mistake a couple of other Handlers do, I don't want to move to fast and screw everything up we've worked for so hard. 

I am just amazed of how fast she's been learning and I learned that I have to learn on how to read her in the field. I did not know what she wanted from me at that moment but when my friend said, "She came through there." I realized "THAT is what everybody has been talking about." 

Next month we are going to take the CGC and next week I am doing my first test towards our first certification. I will be earning my DEC patch in June and could do the 5 Acre in July or August. 

So what do you think. When would yo take the 5 Acres Test? How long does it usually take?

(PS. I now understand that it wasn't intelligent disobedience but a course correction. I did not quite understand what it means but Joy explained it to me on another forum. Thanks Joy. )


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## LEE SCOTESE

I'm working on my own, so you can take this with a grain of salt...
What I do is work my dog a bit longer every time. I'm assuming you have already worked a totally blind search, where the subject is hidden before the dog even shows up. I set the problem up so I know the general area where the subject is. I work toward that area when I think my dog has worked a bit longer or harder that the last search. This allows you to work the dog up to a reasonable limit and still be successful. During a real search you will be guiding your dog into the area you've been assigned, so this is realistic. When you get to a point where you are covering about 5 acres before the find, you are probably ready.


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## Nancy Jocoy

It is, however, motivating to the dog to mix it up. Ultimately they should never know whether it is going to take 5 minutes or 5 hours to make the find.


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## Sandra King

It was our first Blind Search. 
All in all she is doing it for two months and from what i've been told one of the reasons she is so good is because we've been doing a lot of foundation and she picks it up super fast.

Today we did another blind search and she actually used her nose and I think I now know what ranging really means. However she uses her nose on the ground on the trail as well as air scent. I guess the "tracking" comes from the actual SchH tracking she's been doing ever since puppyhood. It's one thing I know quite well and love doing. So I am not sure if that is a good or bad thing.


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