# Working a pregnant bitch... ;)



## Anna Kasho (Jan 16, 2008)

...AKA some REALLY early puppy imprinting! She's due in about a week or two from the date in the vid. Fat and huge and still rarin' to go. Who says you can't/shouldnt work 'em? LMAO 

https://vimeo.com/72537571


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Anna Kasho said:


> ...AKA some REALLY early puppy imprinting! She's due in about a week or two from the date in the vid. Fat and huge and still rarin' to go. Who says you can't/shouldnt work 'em? LMAO
> 
> https://vimeo.com/72537571


seems fine to me, nice and calm. low impact (aside from maybe the jumping) 

thanks for sharing the video.
I think its fine with certain things and certain types of dogs and training.


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## Anna Kasho (Jan 16, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> seems fine to me, nice and calm. low impact (aside from maybe the jumping)
> 
> thanks for sharing the video.
> I think its fine with certain things and certain types of dogs and training.


Thx. Common sense, and I do not see the reason for restricting her from working entirely, if anything the exercise keeps up her muscle tone which helps with the pregnancy and birth. Low impact and moderation is the key. The jump is as low as it gets, still surprising she can heave her giant belly full of pups over the hurdle (pretty sure she would bottom out on the palisade or broad jump!)


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Many of the old time hound men swore by it. Their thoughts were the bitch's emotions (hormones) would transfer to the pup and make it a better hunter. 
I have no idea if that's true but I do believe the bitches state of mind can influence the mental health of the pups.


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## Ataro Muse (Dec 20, 2012)

I personally would not jump a bitch that was a week or two away from whelping, not because of the strains of jumping in itself, but due to the risk of her losing balance and falling which could lead to squishing the pups and/or internal injuries. But otherwise, the rest looks good, she looks happy :smile:.


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## Anna Kasho (Jan 16, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> Many of the old time hound men swore by it. Their thoughts were the bitch's emotions (hormones) would transfer to the pup and make it a better hunter.
> I have no idea if that's true but I do believe the bitches state of mind can influence the mental health of the pups.


For sure. A confident relaxed bitch is a better mother and imprits that onto the pups... Also don't know how much input they get in the womb but mom is happy and they were extra squirmy after bitework, so they are getting something.


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## Anna Kasho (Jan 16, 2008)

Ataro Muse said:


> due to the risk of her losing balance and falling which could lead to squishing the pups and/or internal injuries


I have yet to see that  and pups are fairly well protected from accidental bumps and jolts... Anyway, she is having them right now, so far none the worse for wear. All lively and active


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Anna Kasho said:


> I have yet to see that  and pups are fairly well protected from accidental bumps and jolts... Anyway, she is having them right now, so far none the worse for wear. All lively and active


54 to 56 day pregnancy. Bit short but it happens. Say what you will, Anna. She enjoys it, has fun with it, does it, but its a risk you are taking with your dog. You are taking a risk and might face consequences that your dog might have to pay for. They are well protected from bumps and jolts but letting her jump, even on the lowest level, is quite the jolt, not to mention if she slips or goes of balance and lands on the jump with her belly.... It is quite a risk you are taking there with your dog... an unnecessary one at that. It seems by your original post that you made this video to just prove a point... I'm happy the female and pups are okay, it might have ended differently and you wouldn't be LMAO then.


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## Catherine Gervin (Mar 12, 2012)

Anna Kasho said:


> ...AKA some REALLY early puppy imprinting! She's due in about a week or two from the date in the vid. Fat and huge and still rarin' to go. Who says you can't/shouldnt work 'em? LMAO
> 
> https://vimeo.com/72537571


isn't she a lovely girl! when i was that close to delivering my daughter i didn't look that merry or willing about anything! i did work right up until two weeks of my "alleged due date"--still had to wait an agonizing 2 weeks more because she was my first baby and i guess many of those come late--as a prep/line cook...i was totally a fire hazard, because the other cooks could barely get past me on the line. still, i credit working a decently physical job throughout my pregnancy for giving me the maintained muscle tone that made delivery pretty speedy. between that and Midwestern hips i barely missed not having time to administer those drugs i'd planned on! truly though, however she stays happy and at ease and fit is best for any mom, so long as it's safe, and it is obvious that you take magnificent care of your momma dog--congratulations on your puppies!


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## Anna Kasho (Jan 16, 2008)

Alice Bezemer said:


> 54 to 56 day pregnancy. Bit short but it happens. Say what you will, Anna. She enjoys it, has fun with it, does it, but its a risk you are taking with your dog. You are taking a risk and might face consequences that your dog might have to pay for. They are well protected from bumps and jolts but letting her jump, even on the lowest level, is quite the jolt, not to mention if she slips or goes of balance and lands on the jump with her belly.... It is quite a risk you are taking there with your dog... an unnecessary one at that. It seems by your original post that you made this video to just prove a point... I'm happy the female and pups are okay, it might have ended differently and you wouldn't be LMAO then.


Jumping over a 2ft hurdle? Bitework? This dog has a cushy life... A wild dog/wolf would have to run and jump a lot more, and catch her own food, run away or fight with other predators, dig her own nest, protect her puppies, would be a lot more stressed... you get the picture. 

If the lines are so weak that a young healthy bitch would be at serious risk from light exercise like this, and comperd to the the wild animals this is LIGHT... WTF are we breeding them for?


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Anna Kasho said:


> Jumping over a 2ft hurdle? Bitework? This dog has a cushy life... A wild dog/wolf would have to run and jump a lot more, and catch her own food, run away or fight with other predators, dig her own nest, protect her puppies, would be a lot more stressed... you get the picture.
> 
> If the lines are so weak that a young healthy bitch would be at serious risk from light exercise like this, and comperd to the the wild animals this is LIGHT... WTF are we breeding them for?


Has nothing to do with health, nor do we own wolves but domesticated dogs. There is quite a difference between the 2... Also, I have yet to see a female having to hunt for a bag of kibble?

All that aside tho. I never said you could not do what you do with your dog, I am saying its a mighty big risk to take with your dog when you are not paying the price should things go wrong. No matter how you slice it, there is a real risk involved and its one I would not want to assume for my dog. 

JMO.


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## Anna Kasho (Jan 16, 2008)

Alice Bezemer said:


> Has nothing to do with health, nor do we own wolves but domesticated dogs. There is quite a difference between the 2... Also, I have yet to see a female having to hunt for a bag of kibble?
> 
> All that aside tho. I never said you could not do what you do with your dog, I am saying its a mighty big risk to take with your dog when you are not paying the price should things go wrong. No matter how you slice it, there is a real risk involved and its one I would not want to assume for my dog.
> 
> JMO.


Point being, most of the stresses in their lives are removed now that they are domesticated, and if light work puts a healthy young pregnant bitch at serious risk, then yes, they are getting weaker... And if the female is never allowed to do anything strenuous, how do you know whether or not she is able to handle it?

I guess I do not see this type of exercise as much of a risk, and would not want to have a female that has serious complications because she can't handle stress.:-s


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Anna Kasho said:


> Point being, most of the stresses in their lives are removed now that they are domesticated, and if light work puts a healthy young pregnant bitch at serious risk, then yes, they are getting weaker... And if the female is never allowed to do anything strenuous, how do you know whether or not she is able to handle it?
> 
> I guess I do not see this type of exercise as much of a risk, and would not want to have a female that has serious complications because she can't handle stress.:-s


You are either not reading what I write or just ignoring it. It has NOTHING TO DO WITH HEALTH or STRESS or being Physically ABLE to do these things. It has to do with COMMON SENSE! 

I know for most females are pretty well equiped to do what is asked when they are pregnant. The question is "Should you let them?" You keep hammering on weaker dogs which has nothing to do with this at all, many healthy females lose a litter for no apparant reason where as many poorly treated and fed females bring plenty of litters into the world. I am pretty sure that if something had gone wrong with your August 12th training with this female that you would not have posted any video at all but since this time it went okay, you decided to post and pretty much gloat at people for having an opinion that doesn't follow your line of thinking. "Look at what I did, I worked my 7 week pregnant female and had her jump and bite and what have you not, and nothing went wrong! In your face people! I proved you all wrong! LMAO" How differently you would have thought if things had not gone well and your female had developed whatever problems due to your overconfidence and need to gloat. I stand behind my statement. There is no need to work a pregnant female. It might be okay the first 2 or 3 weeks, in moderation, but what you did? It is just asking for trouble. Writing out checks that your dogs body might have to pay just so you can say "Look at me and my dog proving everyone wrong!" 

I'm glad the dog didn't have to pay the price for your need to prove everyone wrong.


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## Anna Kasho (Jan 16, 2008)

Alice Bezemer said:


> You are either not reading what I write or just ignoring it. It has NOTHING TO DO WITH HEALTH or STRESS or being Physically ABLE to do these things. It has to do with COMMON SENSE!"
> 
> I'm glad the dog didn't have to pay the price for your need to prove everyone wrong.


I am reading, doomsday, disastrous consequences, dog aborts, miscarries, gives birth prematurely, falls and injures herself, or what have you? No I guess I'm not reading what you wrote. OK, I am aware of the possibility. To me, it has everything to do with health, ability to deal with stress, and being physically fit. The malnourished pariah dog that raises a litter is stronger and more resilient than the pampered pet who aborts or miscarries. Common sense tells me my dog is well equipped to do light work, and there is no need to isolate her and handle her with kid gloves. I did not set this up just to prove everyone wrong, I only asked someone to take video. This is what my dogs normally do, I let her work when having the last two litters as well.

Not working your dog is your choice. I see nothing wrong with that.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Well I didn't finish the video since I was in disbelief over the jumping and how heavy in whelp the bitch appeared. There are all sorts of ways to test your brood bitch for ability to handle stress, health, or physical fitness other than to do this sort of thing days away from whelping a litter. I guess the risk, no matter how slight, is worth it to you. To others, not. Your initial post of "who says they can't. . .LMAO" was as Alice says it was--in your face. I only hope that others don't see this as evidence to go out and do the same thing and think that there isn't a risk associated with it. I don't think doing this has anything to do with health, ability to handle stress or physical fitness. 

T


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Anna Kasho said:


> I am reading, doomsday, disastrous consequences, dog aborts, miscarries, gives birth prematurely, falls and injures herself, or what have you? No I guess I'm not reading what you wrote. OK, I am aware of the possibility. To me, it has everything to do with health, ability to deal with stress, and being physically fit. The malnourished pariah dog that raises a litter is stronger and more resilient than the pampered pet who aborts or miscarries. Common sense tells me my dog is well equipped to do light work, and there is no need to isolate her and handle her with kid gloves. I did not set this up just to prove everyone wrong, I only asked someone to take video. This is what my dogs normally do, I let her work when having the last two litters as well.
> 
> Not working your dog is your choice. I see nothing wrong with that.


Any and all physical and mental abilities of the dog have no bearing at all on the fact that accidents CAN and WILL happen and that by doing things like this you are searching a limit with your dog that might not give you a result that you expected. You keep saying how you dog is equiped well enough for light work but the jump was not light work. Kid gloves? There is no need for kid gloves at all, there is a need to not be risking your female and her unborn pups just because you feel you are in full control of every aspect surrounding your female. Like I said, you are quite happy to boast about how your pregnant female still gets to work in a moderate manner yet I am sure this video would not have been posted if anything had happend due to your lack of common sense. At the end of the day you are not the one paying any price should things go wrong but your female is. 

"Just because you can, doesn't mean you should."

Not working my dog is indeed my choice and there is nothing wrong with that. I do not plan to work my female after 3 weeks and before that I will work in moderation and only on exercises that are low impact. Working your dog is you choice but I do see something wrong with that since you have thrown common sense out the window. Did you even for a moment consider that the dog might not really be working because she loves to work? That her working, tho it might show to be in joy, is also in part related to the will to please the owner and a large chunk of obediance? You say, she does! Ever consider that?


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

I wouldn't worry so much about injuring the pups. But there is a load of evidence to prove in human mother to be's that bouncing the babie around can induce premature labor in late stage pregnancy.


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## Carolyn Herle (Dec 29, 2009)

I exercise my bitches in whelp but it is a free choice; free run exercise. No jumping unless they chose to go over a natural obstacle; no bitework. Of course I want them to retain great muscle conditioning but they get to chose how much running. They still run in the last week but much shorter distances. This is not kid gloves or babying but listening to what they want.
There are a studies being done now on humans examining the effect on the fetus when the mother is exposed to stressors. There are lots of hormonal effects that can effect development.

Carolyn


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

How many pups did she end up with? You said she was giving having them yesterday.


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## Anna Kasho (Jan 16, 2008)

Alice Bezemer said:


> How many pups did she end up with? You said she was giving having them yesterday.


She had 11 total, 7 boys 4 girls. All fat and doing well, even the smallest one that I had doubts would make it initially, is managing to feed himself. She is a excellent mama bitch, easy breeding, easy pregnancy, easy labor, and takes awesome care of the pups. If you wanna see, I have them on webcam. http://www.ustream.tv/channel/cykodog1 password "envy"

As far as her choosing... Yes she is working under heavy obedience. I keep her controlled and not doing anything really crazy. Some dogs are more amped when the handler is there, and I tend to inhibit mine. Everyone is so worked up about the hurdle - it's a low jump, she regularly does worse at home by jumping off the couch or flying out the back door over the steps to the yard. No, she would more than likely not choose the food refusal or jumps unless it was on the way to the decoy, she'd rather bite... 

I'd think, if anything, the bitework is more likely to trigger premature labor. Funny no one has commented about the craptastic technique on the bite  She hunches her back and tries to pull the leg out from under the decoy (she tripped him once, he fell, and she is not stupid). Wanting to work? Joking around with the guy decoying, asked if she would choose bitework over giving birth...I'm not sure, but it would be a close call.

I think a little bit of stress is good for the pups. Not anything that would truly affect the bitch, but enough that they are occasionaly exposed to the hormones and the bitch's excitement. I think this could be compared to a woman going to the gym (happy and upbeat) vs getting mugged (fear, bad stress)


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

The webcam is fun. My dog just sired a litter and I'm going to see if the breeder can put up a webcam. 

I also agree with how Anna worked the bitch. It obviously wasn't a problem. I have done similar things with bitches and also had positive result.

Good luck with the pups.:thumbup:



Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

I like the webcam too. 

This is only the second one I've seen. It's a cool thing, IMHO!


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## Anna Kasho (Jan 16, 2008)

Thanks guys. I do it for peace of mind, it's nice to be able to monitor them from work or when I'm away.


A note on the webcam, for anyone truly interested. I buy a slighty older manual focusing model (this one is a Logitech C250), take it apart and remove the infrared filter. This lets me use it in the dark with IR illumination. Really cool, and doesn't bother the bitch at night.The "blue tinted" webcam view you may have seen is from a pitch black kennel!;-)

The instructions for doing this can be found online for anyone technologically inclined...


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## Zakia Days (Mar 13, 2009)

Wow. Read a few of the posts. A week or two before the litter is born, wild canines DO NOT, if they can help it, engage in much, if any, activities aside aside from getting water or pooping or peeing. Pack members or her mate bring her food. If she is alone I'm sure she does her best, but if I'm not mistaken after a certain point, she will no longer make the effort. Good luck with your litter. I'm sure things are fine.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

tx for resurrecting this thread Zakia

- for those who think emotions and whatever get transferred thru the placenta, believe what you want, because until it's proven it's just like religion 

- a long way back in this thread Alice brought up the risk factor and if someone wants to ignore that fact based on whatever logic one uses, one can certainly do so, and if you want to justify it by saying "never had a problem", go right ahead

a simple and somewhat related situation of weighing risks when there is a small margin for safety and why it is stoopid :
many MANY times over the years we would have to stop Navy diving operations to give humanitarian re-compression chamber treatments to civilian sport divers that got bent or embolized. when going over their dive history the same stories would always be told.... they had done the same thing many times but never had a problem before ](*,)
- they would somehow think that a given amount of air in a scuba tank would give them a certain amount of bottom time, and if they stuck close to the tables they would never get bent.... a few variations but basically a broken record from the same song ](*,)

the reason you work a pregnant bitch in a video is because either :
you can
you like it
you think the dog likes it
you think the dog needs it
....or some or all of the above

i can list a dozen other things that would fit into the above 4 reasons that are either stoopid or potentially dangerous for a dog to do and doing a vid of a bitch about to drop a litter would be on the list

i'm not writing this to Ann or others who have their mind made up; just hoping others who read this thread might consider giving it some serious thought before they would do it


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

If I'm not mistaken...don't doctors encourage pregnant women to remain moderately active during pregnancy? Why is supervised and structured activity in pregnant bitches any different?


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## Annie Wildmoser (Nov 18, 2012)

I had a similar thread a few weeks ago, thanks for posting this!



Katie Finlay said:


> If I'm not mistaken...don't doctors encourage pregnant women to remain moderately active during pregnancy? Why is supervised and structured activity in pregnant bitches any different?


^Agree. You know your bitch, you know if she feels she is willing and able. I worked my girl until about 7 weeks at which point she went from willing to not-so-much so i stopped and let her be. Bottom line being READ YOUR BITCH and be reasonable and use common sense. 

Congrats on your litter and good luck with the pups!


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

I cannot believe the comparisons to pregnant women and dog's in the wild as some sort of justification for this. If you wanna do it fine, but neither of these are comparisons to domesticated dogs. If you've actually given birth, you know that you and the baby are under constant monitoring, or that's what's recommended. At one time the #1 high risk mortality event for women was childbirth. Someone define "moderate" for me. It quickly becomes what the handler wants to do until as mentioned the dog just goes into refusal. As a trainer friend of mine says, "just because they can or will, doesn't mean they should." There is so much end justifies the means in the dog world. I was just asked a few weeks ago regarding a herding dog what I thought of this and my answer was "no, put the bitch on ice except for the usual walks and such." Her vet and others said maybe work was fine the first four weeks. She has two other dogs to work and keep her occupied. The recent ultrasound show pups and doing fine. Dog happy chilling as the house dog. I know of others that work theirs on stock but like I told her, not necessary and not worth the risk. Like Rick, don't expect to change already made up minds but just because it worked for others, doesn't mean it will work for you.


T


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Anna and Annie you guys are completely irresponsible. If you had an ounce of sense you would understand that the dog should be kept in a veal stall and floating in a pool of saltwater to increase the bitches buoyancy. And due to the pathagens found in the atmosphere the air must be filtered. Anything less than both HEPA and UV filtration is pupacide. All water must be distilled to kill all pathagens and remove all minerals. Then you must replace the minerals by the exact needs of the bitch that must be determined by blood spectrum analysis a minimum of 4 times a day. If you do anything less than what I have outlined you might as well kick that bitch in the belly and toss her down a few flights of stairs.


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> I cannot believe the comparisons to pregnant women and dog's in the wild as some sort of justification for this. If you wanna do it fine, but neither of these are comparisons to domesticated dogs. If you've actually given birth, you know that you and the baby are under constant monitoring, or that's what's recommended. At one time the #1 high risk mortality event for women was childbirth. Someone define "moderate" for me. It quickly becomes what the handler wants to do until as mentioned the dog just goes into refusal. As a trainer friend of mine says, "just because they can or will, doesn't mean they should." There is so much end justifies the means in the dog world. I was just asked a few weeks ago regarding a herding dog what I thought of this and my answer was "no, put the bitch on ice except for the usual walks and such." Her vet and others said maybe work was fine the first four weeks. She has two other dogs to work and keep her occupied. The recent ultrasound show pups and doing fine. Dog happy chilling as the house dog. I know of others that work theirs on stock but like I told her, not necessary and not worth the risk. Like Rick, don't expect to change already made up minds but just because it worked for others, doesn't mean it will work for you.
> 
> 
> T


Regular exercise is recommended for humans and dogs during pregnancy. That doesn't mean balls to wall training. Just exercise.

How is that unrelated? I'm asking honestly. A pregnant woman is monitored by herself and her doctors, and a pregnant bitch is monitored by herself and her owners. I don't see a remarkable difference.


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## jamie lind (Feb 19, 2009)

Katie Finlay said:


> Regular exercise is recommended for humans and dogs during pregnancy. That doesn't mean balls to wall training. Just exercise.
> 
> How is that unrelated? I'm asking honestly. A pregnant woman is monitored by herself and her doctors, and a pregnant bitch is monitored by herself and her owners. I don't see a remarkable difference.


Go out on a 100 degree day and throw the ball for your dog until it stops bringing it back. I'm sure she will monitor herself.

Self preservation is not a trait that people breed for. But it is in wild animals.


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

jamie lind said:


> Go out on a 100 degree day and throw the ball for your dog until it stops bringing it back. I'm sure she will monitor herself.
> 
> Self preservation is not a trait that people breed for. But it is in wild animals.


Wouldn't the part where I said you also monitor her come into play? Or are you not being sarcastic? Haha


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## jamie lind (Feb 19, 2009)

Katie Finlay said:


> Wouldn't the part where I said you also monitor her come into play? Or are you not being sarcastic? Haha


How do you monitor an animal that doesn't show pain and doesn't want to quit?


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

jamie lind said:


> How do you monitor an animal that doesn't show pain and doesn't want to quit?


Well, 1). Part of monitoring would not be ball chasing in extreme weather, and 2). Part of monitoring would be being aware that the dog doesn't show pain (as the majority are) and taking that into consideration so that you know you decide when to quit, and not let the dog go on forever. Simple.


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## jamie lind (Feb 19, 2009)

Katie Finlay said:


> Well, 1). Part of monitoring would not be ball chasing in extreme weather, and 2). Part of monitoring would be being aware that the dog doesn't show pain (as the majority are) and taking that into consideration so that you know you decide when to quit, and not let the dog go on forever. Simple.


Ok so lets compare women and dogs. How many doctors do you think would recommend to a pregnant woman that wrestling and jumping hurdles would be a good form of exercise while pregnant?


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

jamie lind said:


> Ok so lets compare women and dogs. How many doctors do you think would recommend to a pregnant woman that wrestling and jumping hurdles would be a good form of exercise while pregnant?


I don't consider that moderate exercise, so I would say none. If you're going to test my opinion, please stick to the parameters laid out by it.

Also, wrestling is more strenuous than the protection work in this video. There was no running, no jumping, the decoy barely touched the dog...


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## jamie lind (Feb 19, 2009)

Katie Finlay said:


> I don't consider that moderate exercise, so I would say none. If you're going to test my opinion, please stick to the parameters laid out by it.


https://vimeo.com/72537571


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

jamie lind said:


> https://vimeo.com/72537571


Right...the only thing in here that I would consider strenuous is the jumping. It's not like they were doing esquives...


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Katie Finlay said:


> Regular exercise is recommended for humans and dogs during pregnancy. That doesn't mean balls to wall training. Just exercise.
> 
> How is that unrelated? I'm asking honestly. A pregnant woman is monitored by herself and her doctors, and a pregnant bitch is monitored by herself and her owners. I don't see a remarkable difference.


Are you really serious. For all the simple comments, you can't see the "remarkable" difference? How many dogs are into the doctor for the ultrasounds, bloodwork, palpation checks, etc. that a human is? Women can talk. You are on a guessing game with an animal. How do you differentiate balls to the walls training from exercise? Walking around the house is exercise. Out to go potty is exercise. Who is this exercise for--you or the dog. Medically, a pregnant dogs needs the right diet and move around "exercise." Owners get off on working dogs. Do dogs really care? Bottom line, the owner determines its worth the risk for their own gratification and satisfaction in what they want to do with the dog. You make these absolute statements and then when someone responds you act like something else was implicit in that statement and then label it "simple." Then comes the bubble proposition when no one said keep them in a bubble. But I guess it helps to move to the absurd extreme if you want justification for something when really it comes down to you do what you wanna do because its yours. In the broader sense, that's governs all of it really and there is implicit risk in pregnancy/whelping. However, if you are out there with a pregnant bitch and you are weighing the pros and cons, you lose nothing by not "working" the bitch which is what this thread was a about--not exercise. If I breed a litter, I want to get it here. I see no reason to impose risk because I couldn't find a new toy to play with for 60 days or I want to make some sort of statement that I have super bitch. 

T


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Are you really serious. For all the simple comments, you can't see the "remarkable" difference? How many dogs are into the doctor for the ultrasounds, bloodwork, palpation checks, etc. that a human is? Women can talk. You are on a guessing game with an animal. How do you differentiate balls to the walls training from exercise? Walking around the house is exercise. Out to go potty is exercise. Who is this exercise for--you or the dog. Medically, a pregnant dogs needs the right diet and move around "exercise." Owners get off on working dogs. Do dogs really care? Bottom line, the owner determines its worth the risk for their own gratification and satisfaction in what they want to do with the dog. You make these absolute statements and then when someone responds you act like something else was implicit in that statement and then label it "simple." Then comes the bubble proposition when no one said keep them in a bubble. But I guess it helps to move to the absurd extreme if you want justification for something when really it comes down to you do what you wanna do because its yours. In the broader sense, that's governs all of it really and there is implicit risk in pregnancy/whelping. However, if you are out there with a pregnant bitch and you are weighing the pros and cons, you lose nothing by not "working" the bitch which is what this thread was a about--not exercise. If I breed a litter, I want to get it here. I see no reason to impose risk because I couldn't find a new toy to play with for 60 days or I want to make some sort of statement that I have super bitch.
> 
> T


The simple and implicit would be me assuming that owners can read their dogs, that they know their dogs and that they understand limitations. 

As for the "bubble," if I say I see no problem with light exercise, don't bring up all sorts of activity that is not light exercise. 

You really don't think anyone can have an idea on what goes on with an animal, do you?


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Are you really serious. For all the simple comments, you can't see the "remarkable" difference? How many dogs are into the doctor for the ultrasounds, bloodwork, palpation checks, etc. that a human is? Women can talk. You are on a guessing game with an animal. How do you differentiate balls to the walls training from exercise? Walking around the house is exercise. Out to go potty is exercise. Who is this exercise for--you or the dog. Medically, a pregnant dogs needs the right diet and move around "exercise." Owners get off on working dogs. Do dogs really care? Bottom line, the owner determines its worth the risk for their own gratification and satisfaction in what they want to do with the dog. You make these absolute statements and then when someone responds you act like something else was implicit in that statement and then label it "simple." Then comes the bubble proposition when no one said keep them in a bubble. But I guess it helps to move to the absurd extreme if you want justification for something when really it comes down to you do what you wanna do because its yours. In the broader sense, that's governs all of it really and there is implicit risk in pregnancy/whelping. However, if you are out there with a pregnant bitch and you are weighing the pros and cons, you lose nothing by not "working" the bitch which is what this thread was a about--not exercise. If I breed a litter, I want to get it here. I see no reason to impose risk because I couldn't find a new toy to play with for 60 days or I want to make some sort of statement that I have super bitch.
> 
> T


Also, if you can't figure out on your own what would be balls to the wall training or not, you should not be posting here.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Katie Finlay said:


> Also, if you can't figure out on your own what would be balls to the wall training or not, you should not be posting here.


Yeah, that's right bail.

T


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Katie Finlay said:


> The simple and implicit would be me assuming that owners can read their dogs, that they know their dogs and that they understand limitations.
> 
> As for the "bubble," if I say I see no problem with light exercise, don't bring up all sorts of activity that is not light exercise.
> 
> You really don't think anyone can have an idea on what goes on with an animal, do you?


No, I think SOME can and some think they do or probably don't care, which is fine. That's their prerogative. I don't like to see the generalization. There are many people that can't read a dog or know the subtle signs of trouble with a pregnancy. Happens all the time so err on the side of caution. Regardless, I figure there are inherent risks in the process so I don't want to add to them unnecessarily. The bubble isn't in response to your posts. You can read all you want but you are limited in what you can do in terms of medically monitoring a pregnant bitch. Bottom line, no matter how attuned or intuitive, why risk it. We have moderate exercise, light exercise, balls to the walls exercise, . . .handler's point of view or the dog's or unborn puppies? Its interesting that you now see no problem with "light exercise." I guess we are now stepping down from endorsing "moderate exercise." I guess if I watched the videos we would know what moderate isn't--not what it is according to you. 

T


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> No, I think SOME can and some think they do or probably don't care, which is fine. That's their prerogative. I don't like to see the generalization. There are many people that can't read a dog or know the subtle signs of trouble with a pregnancy. Happens all the time so err on the side of caution. Regardless, I figure there are inherent risks in the process so I don't want to add to them unnecessarily. The bubble isn't in response to your posts. You can read all you want but you are limited in what you can do in terms of medically monitoring a pregnant bitch. Bottom line, no matter how attuned or intuitive, why risk it. We have moderate exercise, light exercise, balls to the walls exercise, . . .handler's point of view or the dog's or unborn puppies? Its interesting that you now see no problem with "light exercise." I guess we are now stepping down from endorsing "moderate exercise." I guess if I watched the videos we would know what moderate isn't--not what it is according to you.
> 
> T


This is another example of something that's not cut and dried, there's no one answer, Terrasita. A heavy work out for one might be a light work out for another. In my opinion, it's a judgment call, what's key is knowing your dog and using common sense. 

As to "I see no reason to impose risk because I couldn't find a new toy to play with for 60 days or I want to make some sort of statement that I have super bitch" Where did that come from? I can't find where Anna said or implied those were her reasons for working her bitch. For that matter, I can't see where anyone said those would be good reasons to work a pregnant bitch. Can you point me to that particular post that led you to that conclusion? Or did those remarks have nothing to do with anything anyone actually said?


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

susan tuck said:


> This is another example of something that's not cut and dried, there's no one answer, Terrasita. A heavy work out for one might be a light work out for another. In my opinion, it's a judgment call, what's key is knowing your dog and using common sense.
> 
> As to "I see no reason to impose risk because I couldn't find a new toy to play with for 60 days or I want to make some sort of statement that I have super bitch" Where did that come from? I can't find where Anna said or implied those were her reasons for working her bitch. For that matter, I can't see where anyone said those would be good reasons to work a pregnant bitch. Can you point me to that particular post that led you to that conclusion? Or did those remarks have nothing to do with anything anyone actually said?


I'm glad we can agree on its not cut and dried and requires judgment which is subjective isn't it. As for who said what, if I didn't put it in quotes then I'm not quoting. But for those that "work" a pregnant bitch, I guess we can ask "why?" The thread began with a question--would you? Then came the round of justifications for doing so along with a video done to demonstrate what Anna thinks is fine for her bitch due to whelp any day. Like Rick, those that have made up their minds will do what they want and that's fine. But for those that haven't, there's another way of looking at it.

T


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> No, I think SOME can and some think they do or probably don't care, which is fine. That's their prerogative. I don't like to see the generalization. There are many people that can't read a dog or know the subtle signs of trouble with a pregnancy. Happens all the time so err on the side of caution. Regardless, I figure there are inherent risks in the process so I don't want to add to them unnecessarily. The bubble isn't in response to your posts. You can read all you want but you are limited in what you can do in terms of medically monitoring a pregnant bitch. Bottom line, no matter how attuned or intuitive, why risk it. We have moderate exercise, light exercise, balls to the walls exercise, . . .handler's point of view or the dog's or unborn puppies? Its interesting that you now see no problem with "light exercise." I guess we are now stepping down from endorsing "moderate exercise." I guess if I watched the videos we would know what moderate isn't--not what it is according to you.
> 
> T


Light exercise or moderate exercise, I don't see a problem. I said light the second time because IMO the protection work in the video is light.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Katie Finlay said:


> Light exercise or moderate exercise, I don't see a problem. I said light the second time because IMO the protection work in the video is light.


Interesting, the jumps are strenuous but the protection is light. Anna characterizes it as all light. When I click on the link that Jamie posted it ends with the food refusal. Going to post one and clicking that one, it looks like protection work and e-collar work? It appears that all sides of this are represented including one person's light can be another person's strenuous. Folks will have to weigh the responses in both threads and make up their own minds.

T


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Interesting, the jumps are strenuous but the protection is light. Anna characterizes it as all light. When I click on the link that Jamie posted it ends with the food refusal. Going to post one and clicking that one, it looks like protection work and e-collar work? It appears that all sides of this are represented including one person's light can be another person's strenuous. Folks will have to weigh the responses in both threads and make up their own minds.
> 
> T


The video the OP posted and the video Jamie posted are identical when I click on them. And yes, light, moderate, heavy...it varies from person to person and dog to do. Didn't we say that? The jumps in and of themselves if consider moderate, but in the video they were very calm and there was no major bouncing or crashing, so I can see them as light as well. I also don't know Anna's dog. 

The protection work the dog never even takes two feet off the ground at once, the decoy barely touches her, there is no running, no jumping, no trashing, no hard fighting...it resembles light puppy work as opposed to training for competition work. But, I've also seen this decoy work dogs before who are in full swing and it's some serious action. So knowing that, my opinion might be different. It's all relative.

As far as the ecollar...I don't even see it being used in the video (yes, the dog is wearing it, but I didn't see any corrections), and even if it was, if used correctly it shouldn't cause serious stress to destroy unborn puppies. Again just my opinion.

You'll have to come up with your own answers as to what things mean to you sometimes. You don't have to agree with anyone, that's fine. But if you don't have your own answer, stop running around trying to beat an answer out of everyone and then disagree with everything they say.

For some reason I feel like I did or said something somewhere and you took it way too personally and are out to get me. You're like Thomas #2 lately. I can't even breathe without being questioned.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Katie Finlay said:


> For some reason I feel like I did or said something somewhere and you took it way too personally and are out to get me. You're like Thomas #2 lately. I can't even breathe without being questioned.



Katie,

Don't drag me into your paranoid "everyone is out to get me"
delusions. Keep the cat fight between yourself and Terrasita


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Its in the eye of the beholder as people say but to actively go out and take such a risk isn't the smartest thing to do. It's not about the light bitework or some of the other things. Its about having a very pregnant female jump an obstacle and saying "see! nothing happened!" its about the "But what if she had hurt herself or fell or lost balance" then what? Why risk it? Why so adament to have the dog jump? Sure, light exercise is okay I guess.... The jump? Nope, to many things can happen to **** with the future of your female and the pups... 

Like I said before, you are taking a mighty big risk with your female when you are not even the one paying for the consequences should something go wrong.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Katie Finlay said:


> The video the OP posted and the video Jamie posted are identical when I click on them. And yes, light, moderate, heavy...it varies from person to person and dog to do. Didn't we say that? The jumps in and of themselves if consider moderate, but in the video they were very calm and there was no major bouncing or crashing, so I can see them as light as well. I also don't know Anna's dog.
> 
> The protection work the dog never even takes two feet off the ground at once, the decoy barely touches her, there is no running, no jumping, no trashing, no hard fighting...it resembles light puppy work as opposed to training for competition work. But, I've also seen this decoy work dogs before who are in full swing and it's some serious action. So knowing that, my opinion might be different. It's all relative.
> 
> ...


Just didn't get the drift of my "all sides represented enough, DONE" post did you. Discussions I don't take personally and never you--just not that meaningful. I actually have my own answers for what things mean to me. You seem to indicate that your descriptive terms are universal or objective. I think they are subjective and since I'm never one to assume, I ask what they mean and you can't/don't respond. You want to offer an opinion on every line and make statements like "parading your training around" and "you shouldn't be posting here," yet someone is out to get you when they ask you the basis of your opinion. There are hundreds of people who lurk on boards and read for information only. Having had pregnant bitches and whelped puppies, not to mention being a part of breeder networks in multiple breeds, I'm aware of what can go wrong and how limited our options can be. Maybe those reading don't know what is light, moderate, or balls to the wall. Again, subjective descriptions. Now the jumps are light vs. strenuous. And since the dog didn't bounce or crash, in hindsight you consider them light. I guess if she hadn't have gauged them correctly, they would be described as strenuous. The trouble is as Alice points out, you don't know how it will turn out BEFORE you do it. As for the collar, when I see a handler reach for what looks like a remote and the little light goes off, I kinda think she might be using it. I don't know for sure what's being done with it. Hard to see in the dark. You look at this from your point of view--not the dog's or the puppies she is carrying. You mention the collar as not enough to kill unborn puppies. Maybe they are otherwise negatively affected? Puppies are aware of the dam's biological reactions to stimuli--something you can't visualize. That late in the pregnancy, its possible that they can feel the stimuli. Again, not something I would do but to each's own. Also, only Anna can say how or if the collar was being used which is why it was a question. This thread was born of another and post one ends with "who says you can't or shouldn't---LMAO." That says nothing about how you should determine what you should or should not do or that it is a judgment call. It sort of ridicules the ideas other others in the first thread, that its not worth the risk to the dam or the puppies--IMO. As I and Alice have pointed out, its not that some won't do it and be fine, its about is it worth the risk. If your comments had dropped from the air, anonymous, my responses would still be the same. Its not that you personally are saying these things, its what's being said.

T


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Just didn't get the drift of my "all sides represented enough, DONE" post did you. Discussions I don't take personally and never you--just not that meaningful. I actually have my own answers for what things mean to me. You seem to indicate that your descriptive terms are universal or objective. I think they are subjective and since I'm never one to assume, I ask what they mean and you can't/don't respond. You want to offer an opinion on every line and make statements like "parading your training around" and "you shouldn't be posting here," yet someone is out to get you when they ask you the basis of your opinion. There are hundreds of people who lurk on boards and read for information only. Having had pregnant bitches and whelped puppies, not to mention being a part of breeder networks in multiple breeds, I'm aware of what can go wrong and how limited our options can be. Maybe those reading don't know what is light, moderate, or balls to the wall. Again, subjective descriptions. Now the jumps are light vs. strenuous. And since the dog didn't bounce or crash, in hindsight you consider them light. I guess if she hadn't have gauged them correctly, they would be described as strenuous. The trouble is as Alice points out, you don't know how it will turn out BEFORE you do it. As for the collar, when I see a handler reach for what looks like a remote and the little light goes off, I kinda think she might be using it. I don't know for sure what's being done with it. Hard to see in the dark. You look at this from your point of view--not the dog's or the puppies she is carrying. You mention the collar as not enough to kill unborn puppies. Maybe they are otherwise negatively affected? Puppies are aware of the dam's biological reactions to stimuli--something you can't visualize. That late in the pregnancy, its possible that they can feel the stimuli. Again, not something I would do but to each's own. Also, only Anna can say how or if the collar was being used which is why it was a question. This thread was born of another and post one ends with "who says you can't or shouldn't---LMAO." That says nothing about how you should determine what you should or should not do or that it is a judgment call. It sort of ridicules the ideas other others in the first thread, that its not worth the risk to the dam or the puppies--IMO. As I and Alice have pointed out, its not that some won't do it and be fine, its about is it worth the risk. If your comments had dropped from the air, anonymous, my responses would still be the same. Its not that you personally are saying these things, its what's being said.
> 
> T


I have offered explanations, you just don't understand them. I assumed everyone realized that exercise levels are subjective for each individual. I thought you'd take that as a given.

And yes, you have find some way to disagree with me in every thread I post in. I'm not the only one who sees this.

It doesn't matter what reasons I do or don't give you, if you don't know the answer or you have a different answer I must be wrong. It's annoying. And don't forget I'm involved in the same breeds you are and know the same breeders, for the most part.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

*Please* let's stick to the thread. Because this is the kind of stuff that completely derails legitimate threads. I know that in the heat of an argument, personal stuff flies out, but please let's try to minimize it.

_Thank you. _


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Mod note:

_DELETED

Please see post #53; the fact that it was mild and courteous doesn't make it less serious._


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Rick said:


> - for those who think emotions and whatever get transferred thru the placenta, believe what you want, because until it's proven it's just like religion


Then T said:


> Puppies are aware of the dam's biological reactions to stimuli--something you can't visualize. That late in the pregnancy, its possible that they can feel the stimuli.


Rick says what you are saying is unproven. You gonna let him get away with that, T?

Rick, T might be talking nonsense. You gonna let her get away with that?


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Very funny.


Let's knock it off.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

I want hear that debate. They have opposing view points and I want to hear them hash it out. What's wrong with that?


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Christopher Smith said:


> I want hear that debate. They have opposing view points and I want to hear them hash it out. What's wrong with that?





Two grown-ups ... they can "debate" without any "fight! fight! fight!" from the sidelines.

I am thinking it was really obvious that I was trying to minimize the junior-high-school junk. :|


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

So does anyone have citations about mammal mothers and their emotions (or strong feeling or agitation or anything similar) being picked up by their unborn _in utero_?

For example:

https://www.patriciamcconnell.com/theotherendoftheleash/fear-in-dogs-and-in-utero-experience


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Connie Sutherland said:


> So does anyone have citations about mammal mothers and their emotions (or strong feeling or agitation or anything similar) being picked up by their unborn _in utero_?
> 
> For example:
> 
> https://www.patriciamcconnell.com/theotherendoftheleash/fear-in-dogs-and-in-utero-experience



Interesting article but in the sibling example I wonder if it considered Pfaffenberger statements in 
The New Knowledge of Dog Behavior (1963) about two canine siblings raised together and one will always become dominant and one will become submissive. AKA Pfaffenberger this doesn't happen as often with non siblings. Also the submissive sibling will never pass the tests for a seeing eye dog. That also doesn't go the same if the two aren't related. 
I can attest to the sibling issue first hand. The first two dogs I got when I bought a house were siblings. One male and one female. They both came to my house at 4 wks because of loosing the mom.
The male was pushy but not really overbearing with the female. As they grew the male became more and more dominant with not only the female but anything and everything including me. I beat his ass and hung him morre times then I'd like to admit. He never said uncle. Without me in the yard he wasn't safe with anyone. 
The female became more and more submissive to the point I would have loved to find some sweet old lady to place her with but I never did.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Connie Sutherland said:


> So does anyone have citations about mammal mothers and their emotions (or strong feeling or agitation or anything similar) being picked up by their unborn _in utero_?
> 
> For example:
> 
> https://www.patriciamcconnell.com/theotherendoftheleash/fear-in-dogs-and-in-utero-experience


There have been references to Serpell & Jagoe, 1995 but I haven't seen the actual study. There is a study out their on piglets and the in-utero response to the mother's raised cortisol levels. The result being reduced ability to deal with stress if I remember it correctly. A good reference site with veterinary bibliography page: http://www.labbies.com/reproduction1.htm. Also, someone's paper with references I would fact check: http://lauriemetz.weebly.com/dog-development.html

T


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Two grown-ups ... they can "debate" without any "fight! fight! fight!" from the sidelines.
> 
> I am thinking it was really obvious that I was trying to minimize the junior-high-school junk. :|


Connie I asked my question the way I wanted so I could get the answers the way that I wanted. I didn't and don't care as much about their conclusions as I do about how they came to those conclusions. 

Further, your link leads leads people down a path that influences their conclusion. How much of the answer I get is Rick and T and how much of the answer is Connie? 

Lastly they wouldn't fight because I TOLD them to. If it works on three year olds it works on WDF. 



Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

_"... your link leads leads people down a path that influences their conclusion. How much of the answer I get is Rick and T and how much of the answer is Connie? "_


Christopher:


Well, zero of my own response is "Connie." I don't have an opinion on the topic. I Googled it and posted the first link that came up. All I cared about was ending the juvenile BS and dragging the thread back to a topic that wasn't flaming.



Rick and Terrasita, do please continue to post your opinions, links, etc.





ETA


Terrasita Cuffie said:


> There have been references to Serpell & Jagoe, 1995 but I haven't seen the actual study. There is a study out their on piglets and the in-utero response to the mother's raised cortisol levels. The result being reduced ability to deal with stress if I remember it correctly. A good reference site with veterinary bibliography page: http://www.labbies.com/reproduction1.htm. Also, someone's paper with references I would fact check: http://lauriemetz.weebly.com/dog-development.html
> 
> T


The http://www.labbies.com/reproduction1.htm link doesn't seem to address mammal mothers' emotions (or strong feeling or agitation or the like) being picked up by their unborn _in utero_. Was it the section on exercise you were pointing out?


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

re: "Lastly they wouldn't fight because I TOLD them to. If it works on three year olds it works on WDF"

??? 

Christopher, you must have more time on your hands than i do //rotflmao//


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

On a side note can pregnant women do sit ups or should they? I've always wondered this.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

rick smith said:


> re: "Lastly they wouldn't fight because I TOLD them to. If it works on three year olds it works on WDF"
> 
> ???
> 
> Christopher, you must have more time on your hands than i do //rotflmao//


Especially if he thinks Connie's post can influence a conclusion and as if I hadn't seen it already. Nor do I think you and I see a so called "debate" in this as if there is some win/loss prize. Then of course there is the idea of who cares what he has told someone to do or not do. . .

T


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Connie Sutherland said:


> _"... your link leads leads people down a path that influences their conclusion. How much of the answer I get is Rick and T and how much of the answer is Connie? "_
> 
> 
> Christopher:
> ...


Its more in the realm of stress/cortisol levels than emotion and yes there its in the section on exercise. I thought you were looking at the more general question of how the pups can be affected prenatally.


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## julie allen (Dec 24, 2010)

Ben Thompson said:


> On a side note can pregnant women do sit ups or should they? I've always wondered this.


I tried, and did for several months. Once your abdominal muscles stretch and feelllike they will tear in two, I figured it was best to quit. Lots of changed go on. Muscles stretch, ligaments loosen, bladder and stomach gets pushed and not supported as well.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

julie allen said:


> I tried, and did for several months. Once your abdominal muscles stretch and feelllike they will tear in two, I figured it was best to quit. Lots of changed go on. Muscles stretch, ligaments loosen, bladder and stomach gets pushed and not supported as well.


How late into the 2nd trimester?

T


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

My oldest sister rode horses for years.When she was carrying her first child she asked her doctor how long could she ride. The doctor told he as long as your comfortable getting up there then do it. She was always in great shape but it wasn't to very long that "getting up there" was no longer an option.


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## julie allen (Dec 24, 2010)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> How late into the 2nd trimester?
> 
> T


I was at 7 months. The Dr took me off of work here too, since I do a lot of heavy lifting at work, saying it was high risk. 
I delivered 6 weeks premature due to a ruptured placenta. Not sure if it was related to lifting or not.


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## julie allen (Dec 24, 2010)

Bob Scott said:


> My oldest sister rode horses for years.When she was carrying her first child she asked her doctor how long could she ride. The doctor told he as long as your comfortable getting up there then do it. She was always in great shape but it wasn't to very long that "getting up there" was no longer an option.


I rode horses as well. Barrel raced with my first pregnancy up until my 5th month.


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