# Need some numbers...



## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

A guy is interested in a Malinois female, KNPV PH1 or PH2. Intends on working it and using it as a breeder. What is a reasonable fee that he should pay? This is a breed area that I can't help with so the WDF could be helpful...


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## andrew kurtowicz (Nov 19, 2008)

im also in the market for a nice ph1 dog for possible breeding and it seem the going rate is STARTING about $10,000 plus shippping is you buy from overseas which is probably $1,000-$1,500 
good luck


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Howard Gaines III said:


> A guy is interested in a Malinois female, KNPV PH1 or PH2. Intends on working it and using it as a breeder. What is a reasonable fee that he should pay? This is a breed area that I can't help with so the WDF could be helpful...


 It really depends on the age and the dog itself. I have bought PH 1 females for 700 Euros, and I have also paid 6 times that for others.
There is a big difference between a PH 1 dog and a PH 1 dog who is truly suitable for breeding.
In my opinion a dog suitable for breeding is also the same type of dog that the police in Europe will pay about 4500 Euros for. So to get a really good one will cost you 4500 Euros on average (about $8000 USD to get here to your nearsest International Airport.
Like I said though, you can buy some and get them here for about $2300 USD, but for sure not a breeding quality one.
I have had several PH 1 females in my kennel and only a couple of them were good enough to be called breeding quality in my opinion.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

andrew kurtowicz said:


> im also in the market for a nice ph1 dog for possible breeding and it seem the going rate is STARTING about $10,000 plus shippping is you buy from overseas which is probably $1,000-$1,500
> good luck


Hey Andy.....Rocky is still here.....(PH 1 431 Met Lof) he is calling your name!! And for way less than $10,000:razz:


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## andrew kurtowicz (Nov 19, 2008)

lol i know mike dont worry buddy im gonna try and get down there next month and check out this "monster" dog you have... do you have any videos of this FLYBALL DOG in action ?????:lol:


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

andrew kurtowicz said:


> lol i know mike dont worry buddy im gonna try and get down there next month and check out this "monster" dog you have... do you have any videos of this FLYBALL DOG in action ?????:lol:


Here is a picture of him, I will e mail you some videos of him when i find them.
I dont want to hi-jack Howard's thread too bad here with videos. LOL


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## andrew kurtowicz (Nov 19, 2008)

mike is correct it really depends on the dog it self... a nice ph1 dog will be $10,000-$12,000 a KNPV BREED QUALITY dog could be alot more but remember there breed standards are higher than us in the states so dogs like arko kikkert,wibo van leeuwen,carlos van von,rudie pegge....etc will be much more money and much more dog but that is what the dutch consider breed quality


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

andrew kurtowicz said:


> mike is correct it really depends on the dog it self... a nice ph1 dog will be $10,000-$12,000 a KNPV BREED QUALITY dog could be alot more but remember there breed standards are higher than us in the states so dogs like arko kikkert,wibo van leeuwen,carlos van von,rudie pegge....etc will be much more money and much more dog but that is what the dutch consider breed quality


Mike is correct but you then go on to say something different? :roll:


It also depends on where the person is willing to ship the dog from or if you are picking it up yourself. I think Frankfurt is the cheapest right now to ship a dog to the US.

Mike IS correct 4500 to 5500 Euro for a very good, young, strong PH I dog. Maybe even a bit less depending on who you know and if they think you are not a Tool!


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Mike and Kyle this sounds very close to what I thought. I know that Mals are easy to get and many are produced to PD 1 or 2 levels. How hungry the owners are and the air to the east coast is the other issue. 

I'm still looking for a PH1 Bouvier female and might as well wish for a million dollars. This is a breed and sex that is too tought to get and will cost $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$.

For a Malinois that is brought in with registration that can shift to the AKCs game, plus air, plus greasing the hand of others...is $6,500 for a 3 yo female out of line?


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## andrew kurtowicz (Nov 19, 2008)

that is because to many americans think just because the dog recieved a ph1 title its breed quality. in my opinion this is not true. there are alot of ph1 dogs like mike said be it male or female that just are not breed quality. that is the point im trying to make dont judge by the title cause i know some super nice dutch dogs that are breed quality but never recieved a title... gerben kamphius dog endor for example.


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

Howard Gaines III said:


> Mike and Kyle this sounds very close to what I thought. I know that Mals are easy to get and many are produced to PD 1 or 2 levels. How hungry the owners are and the air to the east coast is the other issue.
> 
> I'm still looking for a PH1 Bouvier female and might as well wish for a million dollars. This is a breed and sex that is too tought to get and will cost $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$.
> 
> For a Malinois that is brought in with registration that can shift to the AKCs game, plus air, plus greasing the hand of others...is $6,500 for a 3 yo female out of line?


 
Registration might be a problem, PH II will be older (5 to 6 years), Title just gives a picture of the exercises the dog was able to complete, or not, on that specific day. If you knew someone going over to Holland and Knew what they were looking at/for I think you could find a nice Female for that price but there are only a Couple of people I would trust doing this for me if I wasn't there myslef.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

andrew kurtowicz said:


> but remember there breed standards are higher than us in the states


Who the hell is this this "us"? As much arguing as there is on this board and you believe that there is an "us" in the US? Conversely do you honestly believe that the dutch are one single monolith that thinks about dogs in the same way? 

I'm not trying to bust Andrews balls I'm just sick of this us and them crap and he hit the bile lotto today


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

That's okay Chris, busting balls...haven't shot pool in a long time! LOL

I think many feel that a better "product" is producted in the EU than here. There are many different mindsets and all. The one thing that some breeders see for importing is to infuse new blood into their lines. The thing that kills me is that too often showlines animals get better billing than working dogs. "I would rather have a good looking dog that gives some level of success, than to own an ugly worker which rocks."

To be involved in any venue costs so much to have fun...the very reason I haven't seen the inside of a bar in years!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:sad:


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## andrew kurtowicz (Nov 19, 2008)

"US" is the way the majority of this country views breeding as a whole !!! its not for the benefit of producing nice working dogs its about producing size,color,and other superficial crap. the dutch will breed for the work and not other b.s.


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## andrew kurtowicz (Nov 19, 2008)

EXACTLY my point howard !!!!


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

andrew kurtowicz said:


> "US" is the way the majority of this country views breeding as a whole !!! its not for the benefit of producing nice working dogs its about producing size,color,and other superficial crap. the dutch will breed for the work and not other b.s.


 
That is not entirely true, Try to find a Good Lakinois, Bouv, Dobe, Rott, etc......[-X

There is Guilt to be had on both sides of the Pond! This INCLUDES Dutch Kennels!:-\"


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## andrew kurtowicz (Nov 19, 2008)

i agree with that kyle 100% but it seems the european kennls produce more top working dogs than the US why do you think that is ???? talk to some of the top kennel owners in the US and ask them why they import the majority of there breeding stock from europe


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## andrew kurtowicz (Nov 19, 2008)

we seem to be getting a little off subject here... howard if you want a nice ph1 or ph2 female there are some people who are on the forum that can help you. mike suttle and selena van leeuwen would be where i would start. have fun and happy hunting


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

andrew kurtowicz said:


> i agree with that kyle 100% but it seems the european kennls produce more top working dogs than the US why do you think that is ???? talk to some of the top kennel owners in the US and ask them why they import the majority of there breeding stock from europe


 
Do you have any idea the number of litters that are bred each year in Holland? One kennel alone migh have 15 or more litters on the ground at any one time.=P~

What are the "top" kennels in the US I should be talking to?


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## andrew kurtowicz (Nov 19, 2008)

according to almost any working dog kennel owner in the states all there breeding stock is "european imports" so you pick one there are millions of them....:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

andrew kurtowicz said:


> according to almost any working dog kennel owner in the states all there breeding stock is "european imports" so you pick one there are millions of them....:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:


 

LOL, that's not true either! LOL How long have you been involved with working dogs?


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## andrew kurtowicz (Nov 19, 2008)

long enough to know the difference


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

andrew kurtowicz said:


> long enough to know the difference


 
Yeh, it is really showing....:-\"


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## andrew kurtowicz (Nov 19, 2008)

andrew kurtowicz said:


> we seem to be getting a little off subject here... howard if you want a nice ph1 or ph2 female there are some people who are on the forum that can help you. mike suttle and selena van leeuwen would be where i would start. have fun and happy hunting


 

hahahaha like i said good luck howard let us know how you make out with the search


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Kyle in the 1980's the Bouvier was still out there doing KNPV and had some followings. Why do you think it fell apart and finding a titled one, a great one, or a breed prospect is so hard? Do you think the Ring sports pushed the Malinois to the forefront or is it that because they mature so fast that they rate so high? Not the post for the question, but since I'm having your ear...thanks.


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

Howard Gaines III said:


> Kyle in the 1980's the Bouvier was still out there doing KNPV and had some followings. Why do you think it fell apart and finding a titled one, a great one, or a breed prospect is so hard? Do you think the Ring sports pushed the Malinois to the forefront or is it that because they mature so fast that they rate so high? Not the post for the question, but since I'm having your ear...thanks.


 
If I were to guess, the Bouvier is a French Breed and has fallen a fate much the same as the Beuceron.

I don't think the Bouvier was all that Ever in KNPV but did have the Die hards that died out.

I do think there is something to be said with the Utility of the Malinois and ability to do more at an earlier age.

I think the Malinois is/was used as more of a Utility breed for Work, don't work don't eat much more than the other breeds.

Mals are UGLY! :grin:

Not that it means anything but these are some of my persoal feelings.


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

That should read the Bovier is a France/Belgian breed......Beuc/Griffen


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

andrew kurtowicz said:


> i agree with that kyle 100% but it seems the european kennls produce more top working dogs than the US why do you think that is ????


1.Because they bred more dogs

2. Because they train more dogs

3. Because many non Europeans buy into the hype





> talk to some of the top kennel owners in the US and ask them why they import the majority of there breeding stock from europe


I've talked to them and don't give a shit what they say. Puppies from imports sell easier and for more money than domestic bred pups.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Christopher Smith said:


> 1.Because they bred more dogs
> 
> 2. Because they train more dogs
> 
> ...


#4 because they still produce better dogs.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Kyle Sprag said:


> That should read the Bovier is a France/Belgian breed......Beuc/Griffen


 I knew what you meant. #-o


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## Drew Peirce (Nov 16, 2006)

andrew kurtowicz said:


> im also in the market for a nice ph1 dog for possible breeding and it seem the going rate is STARTING about $10,000 plus shippping is you buy from overseas which is probably $1,000-$1,500
> good luck



brilliant


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## andrew kurtowicz (Nov 19, 2008)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> #4 because they still produce better dogs.


 
apparently gerry we are the only ones who see it that way


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