# Sleeve work on the post with Bulldog female



## Tracey Hughes (Jul 13, 2007)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QSNT0elVil8&list=PL7E7AF652FD27BDB7&index=2



This is one of Ellie’s early sessions on the sleeve. We start work with the helper after we have the dogs doing our imitation of the Lance Collins’ system where all the fundamentals are taught on the tug.

In this video she is still a bit more sleeve orientated then we like to see, but it is a pretty good example of how we start out our dogs. Normally we begin the dogs on the sleeve anywhere from 12-24 + months, depending on the dog’s maturity level and if they are starting with a clean slate or if we have had to go back and re start an older or titled dog on the tug. Re training a dog takes more time (and more chances of the dog falling back into its old foundation work) then if you start a pup or young dog out “fresh”.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

I saw these vids on the Banter...

NICE work  thanks for sharing


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## Tracey Hughes (Jul 13, 2007)

I’ll try to explain a bit of what we were doing in the video. In the beginning I have the dog sit and pay attention to me as the helper is coming on to the field/attracting her, she is not allowed to look away from me until I tell her to watch him. That is a bit of drive capping.

She is taught to bite on the stick being raised either alone or with some sleeve movement. With the young/new dogs we would do a bit more sleeve movement in the beginning stages, then we will later. 

She must hold and/or carry until given the command to out, and she only outs off the sleeve in the video after I tell her to, no auto outs.

Even when she is turned with her back away from the helper, she must hold until she is told to out, and that is how we eventually get those nice, clean, quick outs. The dogs actually look forward to spitting it out because they are made to hold it when they really don’t want to.

We want the dog to completely ignore the dead sleeve on the ground, she looks at it a bit more then we’d prefer in this early training. Ideally the dog will not look anywhere other than at the helper, with or without the arm on. If you listen you can hear her get pissed off, almost snarl at times, that is the sort of picture we want in the dog, rather then just begging for a bite, we try to have them demand it. It improves over time.

We teach the dogs to pull and try to let them win when they perform the way we want them to, its never their choice to do what they want to. This female has a tendency to shake and re grip if she isn’t pulling, we want to discourage that as much as we can.

I’ll post similar video of my GSD, Aragon when he was started out on the sleeve, as a comparison. He is a very different dog in temperament but you can see some similarities in how they are trained.


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## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

lame lazy dog, I'd send her back to her breeder.. get one with less couch drive =;


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

do you have any earlier video?


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## Lisa McKay (Nov 30, 2009)

She looks real nice Tracey. Good job explaining things too, its always nice to get some background when watching videos of other dogs.


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## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

Nice work and pretty balanced Bulldog (meaning she has prey!) not something you see every day. Good work and dog.


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## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

Tracey you should share some of your obedience videos they are impressive as it gives a more complete picture of your work...


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## Tracey Hughes (Jul 13, 2007)

Ok Tracey D, for you..lots of Ellie !

Here are a few obedience videos showing some of how we would work a dog after post work and sit with attention are good enough to move on in the system. No matter what we are working on, sit and pay attention are always included. It is the foundation work for everything else..and when the dog and/or handler loses their mind, it gives us a place to fall back to collect our thoughts and regain control on the dog. 

Wall work: this normally takes us a week or two depending on how often the team can make it out to training. We begin in a stationary position at heel, then we progress to one step back up to a full wall backwards, then a step forward etc..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QOVeaA3-zes&feature=youtu.be

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pfeW50WD2Ck

After the wall we heel around 4 cones so we can work on corners and position while moving, both on and off a second line for added tension. Then heeling free. 

Front work begins after heeling. We start this in the same manner, first in a stationary position then moving back a step, working our way up to full recalls under distractions. This exercise is secured before we begin the blind search. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=erpYoZ9oxIs&feature=youtu.be

After the fronts we start the retrieves. First on the dowel with take and hold gradually moving to ground work, line work etc. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p26Txbexkks

Once the dog has the flat retrieve mastered we start the jumps.

Long Downs I start after my Heeling is done and once the down is solid, I start teaching articles in tracking. Go outs I start whenever I want, normally I introduce them young, minus the down.

Last stage of training is a combination of everything the dog has learned..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=REVGNWGkKoE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NYJshVu44Ww

Hopefully that gives people a brief overlook of our training, every dog is started in the same way, regardless of breed or temperament type. 

Every session is geared towards the individual dog and what they need at any point in time but we all remain working in the same basic method so any other handler will know what the other is up to. It helps tremendously to know you can rely on each and every member to help you out when you need it. 

And because every step is broken down, all handlers from beginners to the “oldies” get very similar results, and that is what sold us on this training in the beginning. Not one person, but the entire club can be successful if the work is put in.


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## Marcelo Villanueva (Apr 8, 2012)

nice......


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## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

Well im impressed, esp seeing the training you used to do, huge leap forward and very fast! 

No one's really gonna read a thread with the word "bulldog" or similar in it on this board though lol... but you've done a great job imo and its exciting for me to hear you so excited about training... wish I was closer, or you were closer... I'm not living in snow lol


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Oh I think people read and watch videos but may not comment on everything. I think the training methods are a bit unuaual, at least of what I've seen. How old is she and I'm aasuming she's out of your breeding--which dogs?

T


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## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

She is 3, yes out of my male... Not sure if you know my dogs but... Blanco x Hope is the breeding.

I don't think it's that "unusual" as that sounds like it makes no sense or is totally out there... but I do think it's interesting enough to talk about... I would think the more "unusual" or different from one's own method the more questions and comments... forget the breed.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

tracey delin said:


> She is 3, yes out of my male... Not sure if you know my dogs but... Blanco x Hope is the breeding.
> 
> I don't think it's that "unusual" as that sounds like it makes no sense or is totally out there... but I do think it's interesting enough to talk about... I would think the more "unusual" or different from one's own method the more questions and comments... forget the breed.


Is Hope the bitch out of Nemo or related to him or am I thinking of someone else. As for the training, it seems like if you ask too many questions, its taken as criicism--my experience anyway. So you get into a more "whatever floats your boat" kinda groove. I think the protection is hard to look at in terms of a moment in time and you do wonder how she was developed from the first session.

T


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## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

fairly similar breeding to nemo but not out of him, nemos owner had her at the time of breeding...

I love seeing discussion different training styles, always something to learn.
I stopped coming to this board for s bit as it was the same conversations over and over... plus I don't think Tracey is that sensitive.. I think that's why she posted it.


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## Tracey Hughes (Jul 13, 2007)

Terrasita,


I would not take any offence from questions being asked, in fact I always welcome them, that is the only way people will learn. We get critiqued often in our area about the way we go about starting the work so we are quite used to negativity. 

We enjoy our training and have been very happy with our groups’ improvements in the past two years and to us dog training is all about fun and trying to put on a good show for the judges.


@ Tracey…


In the past I was training the best I knew how without watering down the type of protection I want from my dogs. In the beginning I was happy doing it as I didn’t know a better way but having my dogs working against me in protection grew old and having dogs looking pressured in OB made me really unhappy. Lance came into our lives at the right moment because I was really close to quitting the sport. Its finally all coming together, I have never been happier and neither have my dogs.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Tracey Hughes said:


> Terrasita,
> 
> 
> I would not take any offence from questions being asked, in fact I always welcome them, that is the only way people will learn. We get critiqued often in our area about the way we go about starting the work so we are quite used to negativity.
> ...


Do you train with Lance Collins or is what we see based on seminar attendance? I think its the "quite used to negativity" that people are a tad leery of. But that said, for me, its all so polar opposite of what I'd do with a dog its not a question of "understanding" it. You're correcting the dog on the wall for something I can't see but maybe it has to do with head/eye position--someting only you can see. And the reason for the double line is>??? It all seems like a lot just to train the here/front position/command---a wall, double line/handler etc. But again it comes down to whatever floats your boat. In the protection, within in a second of the out command, he stings her with the whip???? So you say, well, we'll have to see how that works out down the line. I think a lot of people won't question it because they are just more end justifies the means--i.e. if you are able to title her well with this type of training, then it works. 

T


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## Tracey Hughes (Jul 13, 2007)

Do you train with Lance Collins or is what we see based on seminar attendance? I think its the "quite used to negativity" that people are a tad leery of. But that said, for me, its all so polar opposite of what I'd do with a dog its not a question of "understanding" it. You're correcting the dog on the wall for something I can't see but maybe it has to do with head/eye position--someting only you can see. And the reason for the double line is>??? It all seems like a lot just to train the here/front position/command---a wall, double line/handler etc. But again it comes down to whatever floats your boat. In the protection, within in a second of the out command, he stings her with the whip???? So you say, well, we'll have to see how that works out down the line. I think a lot of people won't question it because they are just more end justifies the means--i.e. if you are able to title her well with this type of training, then it works. 



No, we don’t train with Lance, we are doing our version of what he showed us. He has said we are doing a very good job, so I’ll take that as us not completely butchering his system. Impossible to keep up with him as he is always evolving and what he would do in a situation probably isn’t what we end up doing. :-s

We have been to 3 of his seminars in Ontario, plus we hosted him ourselves for 3 days of training with him so we could work the club dogs with him. And we have been out to Work week 2 x plus out to his club one other time. So we are working from what we learned with him, and our videos from him, plus I correspond with his wife Gabi on occasion and she critiques my videos. So we are on our own but we understand enough of how the system works now that we feel comfortable training. 

On the wall, for the front, the dog was loosing focus and we don't allow that from the very beginning in the sit. So if she she looks away she is corrected. The person on the second line is putting tension on the dog so the dog must fight against it. This is using opposition reflex, if the dog doesn’t fight against the tension she is corrected. A second line is also used so we can release the dog and play tug with them as well. We use the lines a lot in obedience as well as protection. We start the front on the wall just so the dog doesnt try to move into heel position because at this stage of training that is a place they want to go to as we have already secured it prior to the front.

We feel that the more distractions you put the dog under during training the less you will have to worry on trial day. We’d rather do “too much” training then “not enough”.

On the out this dog the dog is turned away from the helper and made to hold the sleeve, even though they want to drop it and go after the guy. If the dog does drop it, she is made to hold again until the Out command is given. The sting is to add in a bit extra conflict with the man. Using this way we have found the outs to be very fast and clean and the dog’s are not playing around, they are angry. We want them to ignore the sleeve on the ground and focus only on the man with or without the sleeve. The guarding the dog does should ideally be exactly the same.

We find that people around our area are really afraid of change, which is why we get negative comments I suppose. And most handlers don’t want to do there own tug work, as soon as they hit a hurdle, such as not being able to get the dog to pull, they expect the helper to fix it. We don’t work that way! Handler does it all themselves or they don’t move forward in the work, its that simple. And we have lost members because of that. But we are strict on the rules, you are either on board with our training or you can train elsewhere, no middle ground here.

And since these videos have been taken we have improved our techniques, as with each dog we get a little bit more confident in our work. We are still a work in progress..


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## Marcelo Villanueva (Apr 8, 2012)

> Do you train with Lance Collins or is what we see based on seminar attendance?


We don't train with Lance Collins. We have attended 4 multi- day seminars in total, plus spent a 4 day weekend training with Lance's group during their club training.



> I think its the "quite used to negativity" that people are a tad leery of.


Most Handlers and clubs our way train so the Helper is a part of the beginning drive building upto and including biting equipment on the Helper from puppies. This is not what we do...when we place the dog on a Helper, it is mentally able, and physically able to work in protection with power and aggression; the dog dog is not working for a toy reward during protection.



> its all so polar opposite of what I'd do with a dog its not a question of "understanding" it.


People dismiss it without understanding it. I used to train the traditional method, i'm a regional level IPO Helper for the GSSCC, and been a Helper for 20 yrs and achieved some good results with the dogs. However, power ...true power was lacking in the work. I was following what everyone else was doing. I generally achieved good results in the protection work. 

I understood protection wasn't a game and to gain power the dog must not look at it as a game, but the power in the other aspects of the program of IPO; power in obedience we were missing. 

Plus we found in the old way of training even though we achieved nice powerful aggressive work in protection; we built our dogs to work against the Handler when it came to the protection phase.



> You're correcting the dog on the wall for something I can't see but maybe it has to do with head/eye position--someting only you can see


We correct for loss of attention. When the dog does not meet our gaze "eye to eye" we correct.



> And the reason for the double line is>??? It all seems like a lot just to train the here/front position/command---a wall, double line/handler etc.


The double line is to hold the dog out of position or entice them in the beginning (through line tension) to loose position or not follow the command. 

Through a series of learned behaviours we teach our dogs that out of position is a bad thing, and to fight to get into position when commanded to do so. When we say a command we want our dogs "intention" to comply and get into position. The line helps us go through a clinical process of controlling and blocking behaviours; indeed even slight pressure preventing the dog from complying with a command will cause stress for the animal, and the dog learns to fight against the tension and the need to get into position because it is pleasant and will bring the reward. 



> So you say, well, we'll have to see how that works out down the line. I think a lot of people won't question it because they are just more end justifies the means--i.e. if you are able to title her well with this type of training, then it works.


We have titled dogs already with this method and done well, not to mention that a few who do this method, that we learned from are also world level competitors.



> he stings her with the whip????


To make the dog understand that there is value to the command "out" and how to react to this command, and the value of showing aggression and power to a person without equipment on.

Cheers.


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## Marcelo Villanueva (Apr 8, 2012)

> We have been to 3 of his seminars in Ontario, plus we hosted him ourselves for 3 days of training with him so we could work the club dogs with him. And we have been out to Work week 2 x plus out to his club one other time. So we are working from what we learned with him, and our videos from him, plus I correspond with his wife Gabi on occasion and she critiques my videos. So we are on our own but we understand enough of how the system works now that we feel comfortable training.


TraceyHughes has answered you with a lot more accuracy then mine as to your question


> Do you train with Lance Collins or is what we see based on seminar attendance?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Marcelo..

Are the dogs kept 100% separated from the helper, outside of the protection training work?


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Tracey Hughes said:


> Do you train with Lance Collins or is what we see based on seminar attendance? I think its the "quite used to negativity" that people are a tad leery of. But that said, for me, its all so polar opposite of what I'd do with a dog its not a question of "understanding" it. You're correcting the dog on the wall for something I can't see but maybe it has to do with head/eye position--someting only you can see. And the reason for the double line is>??? It all seems like a lot just to train the here/front position/command---a wall, double line/handler etc. But again it comes down to whatever floats your boat. In the protection, within in a second of the out command, he stings her with the whip???? So you say, well, we'll have to see how that works out down the line. I think a lot of people won't question it because they are just more end justifies the means--i.e. if you are able to title her well with this type of training, then it works.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So, I was correct regarding the corrections and eye contact. As for the double line, I just explained to a friend that it looked like the old resistance down but would ask to make sure. However, one thing isn't clear to me. WHY does the dog WANT to out the sleeve and how do you achieve that? Also, how do you motivate the dog to hold a sleeve that he doesn't wnat to and why doesn't he want to hold the sleeve?

T


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> WHY does the dog WANT to out the sleeve and how do you achieve that? Also, how do you motivate the dog to hold a sleeve that he doesn't wnat to and why doesn't he want to hold the sleeve?
> 
> T





Tracey Hughes said:


> On the out this dog, the dog is turned away from the helper and made to hold the sleeve, even though they want to drop it and go after the guy. If the dog does drop it, she is made to hold again until the Out command is given. The sting is to add in a bit extra conflict with the man. Using this way we have found the outs to be very fast and clean and the dog’s are not playing around, they are angry. We want them to ignore the sleeve on the ground and focus only on the man with or without the sleeve.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Sorry, its not as obvious to me as it is to you. Perhaps Tracy can elaborate as to how you make a dog hold a sleeve that it doesn't want to hold.

T


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Sorry, its not as obvious to me as it is to you. Perhaps Tracy can elaborate as to how you make a dog hold a sleeve that it doesn't want to hold.
> 
> T


how would you make a dog hold something it does not want to hold?

she probably teaches the hold, maybe with force, maybe not..and if the dog drops it she makes the dog hold it, like she said

but hopefully she will answer it again.


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Super work!! Loved this thread and the vids.Im a big fan of the LC methods and the systamatic program and proofing it encompasses.It works for all breeds to which is cool!! And i think its great when someone can come along and give you the motivation to keep going and not drop out and seeing the results you want will keep you going :-D.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> how would you make a dog hold something it does not want to hold?
> 
> she probably teaches the hold, maybe with force, maybe not..and if the dog drops it she makes the dog hold it, like she said
> 
> but hopefully she will answer it again.


I think the training approach is unique enough that I wouldn't assume anything about it. I don't think I've ever heard anyone speak of making the dog hold the sleeve that he doesn't want to hold. Why doesn't he want to hold it? What are the steps in straining the hold on a sleeve?

T


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

T do you have any thoughts or ideas about the questions you asked?

I have a response though I acknowledge that your questions were not directed at me. The reason my dog did not want to hold the sleeve was because she wanted to fight it. I am probably way off base on why I think that is but I believe that her training hasn't progressed far enough for her to realize that the helper controls that fight. In other words her work with the helper has been too limited for her to realize the equipment is seperate from that fight.

Btw I have seen this work in action at first it doesn't make sense to a lot of people. In fact just the idea that there may be a very different system that works often initially produces anger/defense or curiousity. I say this from fisrt hand experience when he was invited to Alaska. Some refused to work with him ever again. Some did and attended work week bringing home new techniques. Some referred to the work and aproach as cultish and compared the membership to stepford wives.

He changed my fundamental way of problem solving and working with dogs. For some this isn't a system or approach that needs to be understood or embraced. JMO


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## Tracey Hughes (Jul 13, 2007)

Regarding the hold with the sleeve. The hold is taught on the rag with 8 week old pups, one of the first things taught so by the time the dog first sees the sleeve around a year later, they understand how to hold very well. 

The reason a dog wouldn't want to hold it is they know the man is there and he has been a threat to them and now we are turning them away where they can't see him and making them be calm and hold, that brings in some conflict for the dog. They want to go after the guy.


The outs are started young and dogs are outed off moving tugs as well as dead ones, plus we teach them that out means to bark and not touch the tug if it is stationary. All this foundation work done early on makes the transition onto the man go quite smoothly. When the dog is mentally mature to handle the helper he is also ready through what the handler has taught him to be able to do everything expected of him...out, pull, bark and not bite on stationary man, hold and carry calmly. The dog also has been taught to listen to the handler under heavy distractions away from the helper. So the dog can more easily learn in protection as it understands how to cap it's drive and work/think while in drive. It has learned it can get what it wants by listening to the handler, so you can get a high level of control in protection with a lot less correcting.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Nicole Stark said:


> T do you have any thoughts or ideas about the questions you asked?
> 
> I have a response though I acknowledge that your questions were not directed at me. The reason my dog did not want to hold the sleeve was because she wanted to fight it. I am probably way off base on why I think that is but I believe that her training hasn't progressed far enough for her to realize that the helper controls that fight. In other words her work with the helper has been too limited for her to realize the equipment is seperate from that fight.
> 
> ...


Sure I do but understand if its confusing to some. The main thought or idea is not not form a concluson before you have all the information and if possible go to the source for the information.

T


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Tracey Hughes said:


> Regarding the hold with the sleeve. The hold is taught on the rag with 8 week old pups, one of the first things taught so by the time the dog first sees the sleeve around a year later, they understand how to hold very well.
> 
> The reason a dog wouldn't want to hold it is they know the man is there and he has been a threat to them and now we are turning them away where they can't see him and making them be calm and hold, that brings in some conflict for the dog. They want to go after the guy.
> 
> ...


Tracy,

I want to be sure I understand this process--easy for those that have done it or something similar. I understand what you are teaching. My question is HOW. I understand when you ay you make he dog do something he doesn't want to do. My question is HOW. If I teach a hold, its a shaping process, mark and reward. If the dog is holding something, its because he wants to--or so the theory goes. Training is a process and I'm interested in each step in the process, not just the end goal. Things like we "teach them that out means t obark and not touch the tug if it is stationary," pose tons of steps and mental processes in my way of thinking so I immediately think HOW? Now if I had a certain type of dog that oculd build to frustration I know exactly HOW I would train that but that's not relevant. I'm not going to assume how you do it which is why I'm asking.

If you are teaching the dog that it is not about the sleeve, why would you have him turn tail to a threat and hold it calm? Once you bring out the puppy after his foundation work, what's the first work the decoy does with the dog--Session 1? How do you progress that the decoy is a threat and what does the decoy do to the dog to demonstrate that he is a threat?

I really like the idea of the foundation work done by the handler. How far does it go and does it progress from rag--bite wedge--sleeve or do they first see the sleeve with the decoy?

Thanks.

T


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## Tracey Hughes (Jul 13, 2007)

Good questions..maybe hard for me to explain without video, but I will try to do my best.

First the hold. If you saw the video with Lance you would see the first step with a pup on a rag. At first a split second hold with the command, hold. Then we have the dog "break" into a pull and then repeat with a second of holding. "Hold, hold".
Over time the hold is lengthened. It really is a feel from the handler, you ask a bit more from the pup in the hold, having them break into the pulling before they drop it. As a pup if they do drop it due to handler error we would just frustrate them, no correcting done at that time. The out and hold go hand in hand, with pups no corrections for outs, we would push the rag to the ground, make it go dead and once they drop it, we would say out and then have them bark again to start the game.

The next stage when the dog is showing the handler enough understanding in the work would be we start enforcing the commands with a correction. We do the same routine of post work and off post work but now if the dog drops the tug there are consequences. The tug is picked up and the dog is made to hold by holding their mouth closed, then usually we would have them break as by this time they understand they must pull on that command. If they don't pull they are stressed to pull, by blowing in their face, tapping them with your ball cap, lighting stepping on their toes or using the leash on their legs..something to make them pull. They are never allowed to remain inactive unless they are under command to hold. 

That's it pretty much. The out is now the same way, if the dog chooses to not out on command they are corrected. Once they drop it, the command out is given and they should be barking. You can pet and repeat the command and now the dog is taught no touching the tug on the out. If I am holding the tug or it is on the ground it makes no difference, I don't allow the dog to touch it. Of course this takes time for the dog to learn. Baby steps always..first they are kept clean for 1 second then a reward/bite on the tug and we ask more of them until the final stages where we can out them anywhere and have them stay clean ( in theory anyways..as dogs will be dogs.. )

I will try to find a video that shows a bit of these concepts later on, maybe that will help to clear up any questions.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Tracy,
> 
> I want to be sure I understand this process--easy for those that have done it or something similar. I understand what you are teaching. My question is HOW. I understand when you say you make he dog do something he doesn't want to do. My question is HOW.
> 
> T


T, seriously not picking on you, I know you are trying to get specifics on the system they use...

but my question is this. how do YOU get a dog to do something it does not want to do? 

Is that a foreign concept or you want a specific on how Tracey does it? it reads rather poorly, considering many facets of dog training is getting dogs to do things that we want them to do, whether they want to or not.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> T, seriously not picking on you, I know you are trying to get specifics on the system they use...
> 
> but my question is this. how do YOU get a dog to do something it does not want to do?
> 
> Is that a foreign concept or you want a specific on how Tracey does it? it reads rather poorly, considering many facets of dog training is getting dogs to do things that we want them to do, whether they want to or not.


Joby:

Send me a PM for the thread interruptus derails. I really want to understand from Trancy, how this system works. 

T


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Tracey is doing a good job of explaining this to you.Its not easy to explain.You need to go to a seminar or borrow some vids of work week.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

brad robert said:


> Tracey is doing a good job of explaining this to you.Its not easy to explain.You need to go to a seminar or borrow some vids of work week.


 
Hi Brad:

This discussion began with Tracy saying no one would respond to a thread titlted bulldogs and that Tracy wasn't sensitive and she would expect questions about training that is different or unusual. Tracy H. then said that she wouldn't be offended by questions because that's how people learn. She did not go to a seminar or borrow vids of work week. To he contrary, she INVITED questions and comments. Now you enter not to add information or examples of the training with maybe how you train the same concepts but essentially to say, don't question any further, go elsewhere for the information. As I said to start, this is what happens when you ask questions. Asking questions is seen as criticism and what some people really want to see is Great Dog, Great Work!!!!

Now, for Tracy, if you have video, I'd love to see it. 


T


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## Tracey Hughes (Jul 13, 2007)

Terrasita,

I posted some obedience videos from pup up showing the post work at the beginning stages, it is the same way for protection. They are in the video gallery from around Dec 30 I think and I believe it is the first 2 videos that deal with the post work. You can see work on the holding there. 


The other I can find is of Lance working a 4 month old pup that shows how you start the hold with pups, and the out etc. this is a different video then I have posted before.


http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XC_6qmrAoOg

I don't have much other video of starting stages of the work. Maybe once we start up training in April I will be able to help out with more video as we do have some young dogs coming up.

The handlers take the pups from rag to tug. The sleeve is only ever worn by the helper, and the dog is not allowed to touch it off his arm. It is not a toy, only a piece of protective gear. 

If the handler wanted to use a wedge I suppose they could, but we haven't bothered. A large and small tug and food are our motivators along with handler interaction.


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## Tracey Hughes (Jul 13, 2007)

Sorry T but every time I try to post a video for some reason that pesky little “m” shows up in front of the you tube link. I can’t seem to edit it either. 
](*,)


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Slow down T jesus you took that wrong and jumped to conclusions!! I said she is doing a good job explaining it to you and said try and get some vids as its not easy to put into words meaning- without writing essays.I was not attacking you at all.

The holding is a shaping process from a pup and starts with the rag and play and slowly step by step touching the pup as we all do but this way it eventually ends up with a pup that you shape that is use to you calmly holding him in place praising him for holding calmly and not chewing then rinse and repeat and repeat etc then you will get to a point where the dog may spit it or drop it make him hold it calmly praise rinse and repeat.eventually you will end up with a dog that knows how to hold its toys and basically anything you want it too nicely and later with proofing hold very strongly under distraction and know the right place to be and later will correct itself for it to feel good without stress in its happy place.And holding the sleeve is the same thing that the pup learnt holding the rag,tug,wedge etc as it progressed just more advanced or a thing that comes later as the dog progresses and stress is applied if it doesnt do what its been doing since it was a pup but they become so conditioned and so happy to be in that situation corrections become less.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Tracey Hughes said:


> Sorry T but every time I try to post a video for some reason that pesky little “m” shows up in front of the you tube link. I can’t seem to edit it either.
> ](*,)


 
Tracy, at Brad's pertinent suggestion before he began calling on jesus, I searched YouTube for Lance and found several videos. You also had a puppy rag video. With the GSD puppy, you already have a puppy with very strong object drive. She will hold the rag all day long--genetically. So he did a session of her pulling at the rag, then him doing a Flinks type calm and cradle. What he "trained" in the session was the bark--he would activate he rag on the ground as prey; i.e. wiggle it around and then when she barked, he gave her the rag. I don't see him as training her to hold or that out includes a bark. Its more if you bark, you get the rag which is consistent with other bitework training systems. . She ws already holding the rag. He just stroked her calmly while she was holding. I couldn't see any out training. I was hard to hear in the video but he seems to think if you say the word, the dog associates it eventually with the behavior--MAYBE for some dogs, not so for others. Also saw a video of Lance working his own dog Zando. From that video I can't agree that the foundation work carries over to the adult work since he had to physically detach him from the sleeve every time. I don't know the training history of the dog though. There was another video of Akira and the muzzle pinch ws also used to out the dog. Again, don't know the training history of the dog.

Basically, I was trying to put this together as a sort of step by step process or something like phase 1 or phase 2 . . . You said in the beginning that your club sorta puts their own spin on things so I really wasn't focusing on Lance Collins so much. Once you put your own spin on somthing that alters it and can do so significantly so can't really attribute it all to LC's system. Then you get into what part is LC's amd what part is your own spin. 

I still would like to know the reasoning behind having the dog turn away from the decoy/threat and calmly hold the sleeve. Furthermore, how is the dog first introduced to the decoy after the 14 months. Equipment-wise having worked a rag and sleeve, do they just go to full bites/grip on an audlt sleeve. Also, how is it established o the dog regardless of his drives, that the decoy is a threat? Mostly you see dogs holding objects because they want to. Here you say the you "make" he dogs continue to hold the sleeve even though they don't want to so in your system or with your dog, I was wondering how do you accomplish that. 

T


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Sure I do but understand if its confusing to some. The main thought or idea is not not form a concluson before you have all the information and if possible go to the source for the information.
> 
> T


That is an excellent point. I once posted a video that inclusded an aspect of what was perceived as the dog being pressured by the helper. It was interesting to me how a conclusion was formed without having all the facts and even when a answer was given by the source the initial conclusion had not changed. It then made its rounds via PMs to various people presumably to get an answer that satisfied them.

So I am in complete agreement that sticking with the source is usually your best bet.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Nicole Stark said:


> That is an excellent point. I once posted a video that inclusded an aspect of what was perceived as the dog being pressured by the helper. It was interesting to me how a conclusion was formed without having all the facts and even when a answer was given by the source the initial conclusion had not changed. It then made its rounds via PMs to various people presumably to get an answer that satisfied them.
> 
> So I am in complete agreement that sticking with the source is usually your best bet.


Yeah, I agree with you about the source. They do have a way of confirming perceptions or even denying them depending on he level of objectivity involved.

T


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

T Zando competed at the wusv from memory:-k And there is next to nothing on the system on youtube either.Its really about giving pups a good foundation and bringing extreme drive and working with tugs etc i recently started a male at age 15-16 mths with a helper after i had been loosely using these principles and this dog brought it strong first time as he knew what to do he knew to bark to activate a bite he knew to bark and hold etc etc yep genetics plays a huge part but so does how you train it.

Joby asked you how you train something the dog doesnt want to do? And that pretty much sums it up.Remember these pups have been taught this since day dot so its not something they fight they realise its a good thing and you have to be prepared to place the right stress on a dog if it wont.

Im a huge fan of these methods and i have tried to obtain every bit of footage i can of seminars that are taped etc and work weeks(wish i had a few more of the last year or two) and i never tire of watching it.He has a way of explaining and showing ways of teaching and proofing that is unique.And Pat Brown-John is awesome too and was really good at explaining about raising there pups.


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## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

Preface: I'm not super familiar with their theory, there are things I really like and have done somewhat, ie opposition reflex, that I plan to incorporate more after watching some videos but I don't plan on ever doing the "system".... intrigued by it nonetheless. With that said I'm gonna take a stab for Shiites and giggles and see how close I am or how much I butcher it lol.

I can't see the videos but I'm guessing they haven't made it to the out yet and are still in the initial stages where the dog controls the handler.. I say this as she or someone mentioned baby steps... I bark, you move, bring the tug closer, give me a bite. Im thinking the next phase would include the teaching of the out and that the barking again activates the tug/ handler. If memory serves in ob if they out the dog, the dog barks. This is my guess lol... I really don't think their method is all that unusual personally with the exception that it is all laid out in steps. On the dog turned... another wild guess lol... but many times I will heel away with the helper taunting us, following, whipping the dog, yelling etc.. this is all proofing the heel, in their case the hold... it also creates, the term they like to use a lot ... "conflict" which brings explosion in the work. I'm gonna guess ,again, that they are looking for the conflict in the holding to get the power out, fast and with intent, combined with the aggression on the helper. I'm really curious if I'm any where close lol. Again, I've learned more just now than I've ever asked, this is just me thinking it out and I may be all wrong... but for some odd reason I thought it would be fun to guess??? On my phone so my words may be short and scattered, hopefully what I'm saying is at least conveying my thoughts well enough.


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

tracey delin said:


> Preface: I'm not super familiar with their theory, there are things I really like and have done somewhat, ie opposition reflex, that I plan to incorporate more after watching some videos but I don't plan on ever doing the "system".... intrigued by it nonetheless. With that said I'm gonna take a stab for Shiites and giggles and see how close I am or how much I butcher it lol.
> 
> I can't see the videos but I'm guessing they haven't made it to the out yet and are still in the initial stages where the dog controls the handler.. I say this as she or someone mentioned baby steps... I bark, you move, bring the tug closer, give me a bite. Im thinking the next phase would include the teaching of the out and that the barking again activates the tug/ handler. If memory serves in ob if they out the dog, the dog barks. This is my guess lol... I really don't think their method is all that unusual personally with the exception that it is all laid out in steps. On the dog turned... another wild guess lol... but many times I will heel away with the helper taunting us, following, whipping the dog, yelling etc.. this is all proofing the heel, in their case the hold... it also creates, the term they like to use a lot ... "conflict" which brings explosion in the work. I'm gonna guess ,again, that they are looking for the conflict in the holding to get the power out, fast and with intent, combined with the aggression on the helper. I'm really curious if I'm any where close lol. Again, I've learned more just now than I've ever asked, this is just me thinking it out and I may be all wrong... but for some odd reason I thought it would be fun to guess??? On my phone so my words may be short and scattered, hopefully what I'm saying is at least conveying my thoughts well enough.


Hey your good!!!! LOL 

and yep prey+conflict =power


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

brad robert said:


> T Zando competed at the wusv from memory:-k And there is next to nothing on the system on youtube either.Its really about giving pups a good foundation and bringing extreme drive and working with tugs etc i recently started a male at age 15-16 mths with a helper after i had been loosely using these principles and this dog brought it strong first time as he knew what to do he knew to bark to activate a bite he knew to bark and hold etc etc yep genetics plays a huge part but so does how you train it.
> 
> Joby asked you how you train something the dog doesnt want to do? And that pretty much sums it up.Remember these pups have been taught this since day dot so its not something they fight they realise its a good thing and you have to be prepared to place the right stress on a dog if it wont.
> 
> Im a huge fan of these methods and i have tried to obtain every bit of footage i can of seminars that are taped etc and work weeks(wish i had a few more of the last year or two) and i never tire of watching it.He has a way of explaining and showing ways of teaching and proofing that is unique.And Pat Brown-John is awesome too and was really good at explaining about raising there pups.


 
Okay, I recently went to a seminar here with Shade Whitesel. She outlined her system and then she worked her dog. He was the poster child for her system and I could see all of it in the dog even when he was passive and not being worked. So when I saw the training vid of Zando I thought okay, this will show me the system in action. However, I didn't see what Tracy H was really referring to.

I think more in terms of this being Tracy H's and her club's system or spin on Lance so he is out of it thoeretically for me. I saw a video of him training the puppy to bark---okay, that's how he does it. Very straighforward. As for the other stuff, I was asking Tracy really about HER training and what she says she and her club do with their dogs. Is not really about LC for me especially if someone says they put their own spin on things. 

Again, how I train is irrelevant if I'm asking someone how they train something atfer inviting comments and questions. Maybe you can explain why you have the dog turn away from the decoy threat and hold a sleeve if you want him to focus on the man? Based on some things you've said, I might can guess but why guess when you guys can tell me the reasoning behind it. There seems to be a lot of training opposites and resistance which is old school stuff but again, I'd rather ask then guess. 

T


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## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

brad robert said:


> Hey your good!!!! LOL
> 
> and yep prey+conflict =power


whoo hoo, snaps for me lol..... Just compare it to our training and why we do what we do, we use different terms and twists etc but the ideas/ basic theory is there...

I have to say I DO MOST DEFINITELY love how it becomes a team sport and several are involved with the training. gets people off their butt, allows more opportunities to learn, great camaraderie, and great for the work/ dog... almost makes me miss having a club


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

tracey delin said:


> Preface: I'm not super familiar with their theory, there are things I really like and have done somewhat, ie opposition reflex, that I plan to incorporate more after watching some videos but I don't plan on ever doing the "system".... intrigued by it nonetheless. With that said I'm gonna take a stab for Shiites and giggles and see how close I am or how much I butcher it lol.
> 
> I can't see the videos but I'm guessing they haven't made it to the out yet and are still in the initial stages where the dog controls the handler.. I say this as she or someone mentioned baby steps... I bark, you move, bring the tug closer, give me a bite. Im thinking the next phase would include the teaching of the out and that the barking again activates the tug/ handler. If memory serves in ob if they out the dog, the dog barks. This is my guess lol... I really don't think their method is all that unusual personally with the exception that it is all laid out in steps. On the dog turned... another wild guess lol... but many times I will heel away with the helper taunting us, following, whipping the dog, yelling etc.. this is all proofing the heel, in their case the hold... it also creates, the term they like to use a lot ... "conflict" which brings explosion in the work. I'm gonna guess ,again, that they are looking for the conflict in the holding to get the power out, fast and with intent, combined with the aggression on the helper. I'm really curious if I'm any where close lol. Again, I've learned more just now than I've ever asked, this is just me thinking it out and I may be all wrong... but for some odd reason I thought it would be fun to guess??? On my phone so my words may be short and scattered, hopefully what I'm saying is at least conveying my thoughts well enough.


Ohhhh, I would say that's a pretty credible guess if you think in terms of control and proofing. Its just a flip of the switch. Tracy H. has spoken repeatedly against work out of prey motivation. This SEEMS to be mostly defense motivation. First, its not about then sleeve, its about the threat. Now for the control element, ignore the threat. In your case, even though the guy is stalking from behind and "whipping the dog?" dog maintains attention focus and heel position. So where is the explosion?

T


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## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

the explosion is in the reward... schutzhund, as I'm assuming you know so really not sure why you would ask the question, but schutzhund is all about control... dog can't just bite on its own accord if as command to do otherwise is given, in training you go beyond. seriously, with all these questions and how unusual you find this I'm now curious how you train.. Lol...can you post videos with explanations? here or in a new thread? I think it would be cool to finally get some interesting training chat going for a change..


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

tracey delin said:


> whoo hoo, snaps for me lol..... Just compare it to our training and why we do what we do, we use different terms and twists etc but the ideas/ basic theory is there...
> 
> I have to say I DO MOST DEFINITELY love how it becomes a team sport and several are involved with the training. gets people off their butt, allows more opportunities to learn, great camaraderie, and great for the work/ dog... almost makes me miss having a club


Yeah couldnt agree more!! if there is 3 or 4 people teaching dumbells and position for e.g i think its good for everyone too and makes people feel involved in training not just waiting there turn.And also like the idea of adding and mixing different programs for something that works for YOU :-D:-D


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Ohhhh, I would say that's a pretty credible guess if you think in terms of control and proofing. Its just a flip of the switch. Tracy H. has spoken repeatedly against work out of prey motivation. This SEEMS to be mostly defense motivation. First, its not about then sleeve, its about the threat. Now for the control element, ignore the threat. In your case, even though the guy is stalking from behind and "whipping the dog?" dog maintains attention focus and heel position. So where is the explosion?
> 
> T


you are not getting it....


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Yeah, I agree with you about the source. They do have a way of confirming perceptions or even denying them depending on he level of objectivity involved.
> 
> T


Yeah, that goes both ways. I'm learning a lot from this thread. Here's hoping that this won't be a repeat of so many others. Its great that its staying in topic. I'm hoping it proves to be educational but something tells me that its impossible to change perceptions of others.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> you are not getting it....


 I know this is supposed to be obvious so care to enlighten. For instance prey + conflict = power. I can see plenty of potential for conflict. Where's the prey and where do you see the power? 

T


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Ahhhhhhh. . http://siriusdog.com/article/author/Lance+Collins


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## Tracey Hughes (Jul 13, 2007)

The entire work is prey based! From day one we encourage the dog to be as high in prey drive as we can possibly make them be. That is the tug work we do, which is pretty much a part of every exercise later. The dog hits the field and most will come into prey drive as that is how they have been conditioned over time. Sort of like Pavlov.. Training is all about coming into drive. Handler is stationary, dog barks to make them move. Dog is pushing handler or helper all the time. That is what we try to do, we don't usually give commands unless the dog is in drive first. That is why you will see us say out, to get the barking going and then say sit. Dog comes into drive and then must sit quietly, this builds frustration in the dog by capping drive. Out means bark to our dogs and by saying commands as the dog is holding or sitting or downing, they do over time begin to associate that word with the action. 

The turning around and stinging the dog isn't done all the time either, it is just a way to teach the dog that the helper is not to be trusted. Adds suspicion to the work. Some dogs we havent had to do it with as they come into the work already suspicious and others need to see it more often as they are too comfortable with the helper. And from experience you can not take a dog who has been worked in another method and try it. It doesn't give you the same results which shows that every single thing we teach the dogs fits into the next piece of the puzzle.

Dog training is a lot about the handler understanding what the dog needs at any given moment, it isn't as easy as saying..you do "this". Basically once you understand how to read your dog, and know a bit of how a dog's mind works then you can start training. The reason I like this training is you can be a first time handler with a strong dog and not be overwhelmed, since you are working on one exercise at a time. And back chaining is a big part of the work which simplifies exercises as well.


Tracey D. Holy cow...you did a really good job with that explanation. 
=D>


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Tracey Hughes said:


> The entire work is prey based! From day one we encourage the dog to be as high in prey drive as we can possibly make them be. That is the tug work we do, which is pretty much a part of every exercise later. The dog hits the field and most will come into prey drive as that is how they have been conditioned over time. Sort of like Pavlov.. Training is all about coming into drive. Handler is stationary, dog barks to make them move. Dog is pushing handler or helper all the time. That is what we try to do, we don't usually give commands unless the dog is in drive first. That is why you will see us say out, to get the barking going and then say sit. Dog comes into drive and then must sit quietly, this builds frustration in the dog by capping drive. Out means bark to our dogs and by saying commands as the dog is holding or sitting or downing, they do over time begin to associate that word with the action.
> 
> The turning around and stinging the dog isn't done all the time either, it is just a way to teach the dog that the helper is not to be trusted. Adds suspicion to the work. Some dogs we havent had to do it with as they come into the work already suspicious and others need to see it more often as they are too comfortable with the helper. And from experience you can not take a dog who has been worked in another method and try it. It doesn't give you the same results which shows that every single thing we teach the dogs fits into the next piece of the puzzle.
> 
> ...


Do you think just because you established prey work off the field that when the decoy comes into the picture as the the threat/conflict/stress, the dog is still in prey drive? Watching those videos of your dog on the wall, what drive do you think she is in? When you have a dog turn tail to an established threat, do you think he is in prey drive? Most of your statements regarding protection have been against prey drive and dogs moivated to only possess the prey--the sleeve. Like I said if prey + conflict = explosion, from your own understanding when working your dog, what is the prey component; what is the conflict and how does he dog demonsrate the explosion?

T


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## Tracey Hughes (Jul 13, 2007)

I would think the dog is in a combo of drives, prey drive certainly, some defense and they want to go fight with the man as well. In protection the dog needs to want to engage with the helper or it won't be able to work well in this program.

On the wall the dog is not in drive they are working to figure out where their position is, to keep straight and focused. I am not concerned with drive at that point, that comes later on. When we release them, then we want them back into drive and that releases any pressure the dog was feeling in the obedience phase. Our wall work with Ellie was a bit new so we have changed a few things since then. Constantly evolving our training as we get more experience.

We turn the dog away so they will feel some stress there, that coupled with the prey the dogs bring in the work causes the dog to bark with every ounce they have in them. That is where to power comes from. Maybe hard to see in video but when you compare our club dogs with others there are usually big differences in how hard ours bite and pull, how hard the hit the man on the long bite and escapes, just overall attitude. 

Yes I am very much against a dog who is working only in prey, where the are yipping for the sleeve rather then demanding it. But a dog without some prey drive won't work well as prey is the stronger (killing) drive the point that you are missing is that we work the dogs not only in prey, they are working for the fight with the helper as well, that is what is the big difference here. Some trainers avoid the dogs ever feeling that they could lose to the helper if they go weak, or stop pulling or ever come off the bite, our dogs know the helpers are not friendly.

The conflict can be a sting of the whip, a tap on the nose with the reed stick or across the legs or it can be demanding the dog do obedience for the handler. Lots of variances.

If you can't see where the dogs are exploding in their work then no amount of words or video can help. Open invite to train here and watch how we do it in person is always there to anyone in our area.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Tracey Hughes said:


> I would think the dog is in a combo of drives, prey drive certainly, some defense and they want to go fight with the man as well. In protection the dog needs to want to engage with the helper or it won't be able to work well in this program.
> 
> On the wall the dog is not in drive they are working to figure out where their position is, to keep straight and focused. I am not concerned with drive at that point, that comes later on. When we release them, then we want them back into drive and that releases any pressure the dog was feeling in the obedience phase. Our wall work with Ellie was a bit new so we have changed a few things since then. Constantly evolving our training as we get more experience.
> 
> ...


 

Tracy,

One of the unique components of your training is the desire for the pull. I don't hear that to often or ever for that matter. Therefore, I'm sure they can out pull other dogs. As for the hardness of the grips, there is lots of discussion about trained hardness vs. genetic hardness; more hardness in defense with less fullness and fullness seen more in prey. I think Dave gave a fantastic analysis in the defense therad of the approach I generally see desired. Like I said in the beginning, it will come down to priorities and whatever floats your boats. As for he explosion, no in the videos posted, I don't see anything different than what I've seen in other protection videos posted here. I was wondering if after all the conflict and stress and the bite is presented that you see more dog [i.e. the power] vs. if you hadn't imposed conflict and stress. But this was just a guess which I hate to do; hence me asking. With this system, it appears that the prey state of mind is assumed to be conditioned and that the dogs always come onto the field with it and even remains in that state of mind primarly when the "threat, conflict, stress" is imposed. The combination of the two begets power. In your system, if the dog perceives something as a threat, is he still in prey drive? Do you think the mere presence of a sleeve or rag and the dog's past history with the work with the handler will condition him to always be in some degree of prey drive? I think its interesting that the belief is that after you turn the dog away with the threat behind him, that its prey drive that generates the bark. Because prey was used to generate the bark when he was a puppy, you think with a threat behind him, prey will generate the bark? Yes, I am missing that the dogs are working "for" something. I certainly don't believe that you are working them only in prey--not by a long shot. Very little of the decoy work [if any] I've seen in yours or other videos was prey based--to me. One of the things I've asked what are the first sessions like with the decoy after the foundation work with the handler? When and how is the threat introduced. You know, kinda session 1, session 2. . . Is it tug/rag to sleeve? Targeting?

Thanks for the invite. Would be interesting to see in person as an observer.

T


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

most IPO dogs are taught to pull.


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## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

terrisita, you have alot of questions... I have to ask, as I assumed before and now I'm not so sure, but do you train in ipo? what sport do you train in? What's your background? I'm curious because you act like this is all so foreign so I'm just trying to understand where it is you are coming from as I probably assumed wrong. but at this point since everything she writes is so far out there for you I think a visit may be best. I have no idea how anyone could explain online every bit of their training and do it any real justice...


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

tracey delin said:


> terrisita, you have alot of questions... I have to ask, as I assumed before and now I'm not so sure, but do you train in ipo? what sport do you train in? What's your background? I'm curious because you act like this is all so foreign so I'm just trying to understand where it is you are coming from as I probably assumed wrong. but at this point since everything she writes is so far out there for you I think a visit may be best. I have no idea how anyone could explain online every bit of their training and do it any real justice...


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## Marcelo Villanueva (Apr 8, 2012)

in IPO the dogs hardness of bite and ability to stop/fight the Helper is most valued. 

In IPO when a dog is pulling the dog is biting with as hard a bite as it possibly can without chewing.

Picture pulling on something with your hands...you have no intentions of holding on softly, however when you push on something you can do it with a lot less hand strength. Same principle wih the bite hardness and power while on the bite.

Pulling like Pushing into the bite alone (depending on a dogs natural fighting style) is a taught behaviour that is not indicative of drive or characterof the dog. 

The proper IPO Helper will force opposition pushing into the bite of a dog that pushes into the bite and to release the stress on it's teeth; a dog will shake or re-bite (while on the bite) and once a dog learns this, it will become a habbit that will be detrimental to it's performance.

@ Joby you still around on our FB page?

Cheers


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## Marcelo Villanueva (Apr 8, 2012)

Joby Becker said:


> Marcelo..
> 
> Are the dogs kept 100% separated from the helper, outside of the protection training work?


 
Joby it depends on the dog(s) character and temperament. 

Cheers,
Chello...


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## Tracey Hughes (Jul 13, 2007)

I am not sure where you are located but if we ever get down near your way we would also be more then willing to show you a bit in person too. But always an open invite here, that goes for anyone interested.

Most IPO dogs are taught to pull nowadays. If you look at some of the Czech trainers they are masters of that. Vit Glisnik comes to mind. 
If the dog is pulling as hard as they can it is impossible for them to be chewing and if you teach them to pull on the escape they are more likely to hinder the helper. Both key points in competition.

For sure a lot of what a dog brings is genetic but training will only improve on that. While we want a dog that bites hard genetically we also teach the dogs early on that if the bite weak they lose the tug. So that lesson combined with helper stress and pulling brings out the maximum we can get from the dog. Not all dogs are created equal but training can make a ok dog good and a good dog excellent. That is what we are attempting to do.

Yes, we would see more power from the dog with conflict vs training without it. That is the point, we are training the dogs to be the most they can be.

No matter what system you are training in a dog comes on the field conditioned. All dogs are started out in prey work as pups, so over time when they come onto the training field any dog will (should?) come into drive. They want to be working and biting, so they see the helper they come into drive. If the dog doesn’t come into drive on his own, I would think maybe its not the dog for this sport. 

If the dog sees a threat he would want to fight. Mix of drives I suppose.

We want our dogs to come into drive even without any tug or sleeve. Obedience is the same sort of training as far as dog initiating the work by coming into drive. In trial the dogs drive is being capped by the control, but as the OB routine goes on, the dog will come up in drive, rather then lose drive. By the time the go out comes, ideally the dog will want to race down the field as he has been holding in his drive all that time. 

It is tug to helper hiding in woods (no bite) just to bring up dogs suspicion and then next session most likely would be sleeve. Dependant on what the dog is showing. 

Protection training is a complex thing, it is not as simple as just training in prey or defense. It is the helper doing what needs to be done according to what the dog is showing. If the dog comes out stressed the helper will make him feel strong, if the dog is too cocky and sure and shows no worry of the man, he will add something into the work to make the dog think there is indeed a reason to feel a bit of unsureness. A tiny bit just to piss the dog off, to make them fight as hard as they are able to.

No matter if the dog is a super strong dog or a weaker one as long as they are strong enough in temperament to handle the training, the helper will work them with stress, added when needed to keep that balance in the dog.

The dogs are not pulling out of weakness. They are pulling because that is what we have trained them to do. Everything we do in training is geared towards having a dog look good in trial, hopefully [-o<.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

tracey delin said:


> terrisita, you have alot of questions... I have to ask, as I assumed before and now I'm not so sure, but do you train in ipo? what sport do you train in? What's your background? I'm curious because you act like this is all so foreign so I'm just trying to understand where it is you are coming from as I probably assumed wrong. but at this point since everything she writes is so far out there for you I think a visit may be best. I have no idea how anyone could explain online every bit of their training and do it any real justice...


Sorry for the double if not triple posting, but I am curious too. I know you were training Schutzhund dogs in the 80s...any more recent experience with bite sports?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Marcelo Villanueva said:


> Joby it depends on the dog(s) character and temperament.
> 
> Cheers,
> Chello...


I recently had a short exchange with someone that said that if the dog could tolerate not being the helpers enemy, and could interact on some normal level with the dog outside of the work, that they would cull the dog, that the dog would be too weak... I did not agree personally.

some dogs will be fine, they do not hold grudges, they are clear and fair enough to do so in some cases..


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## Marcelo Villanueva (Apr 8, 2012)

> some dogs will be fine, they do not hold grudges, they are clear and fair enough to do so in some cases..


Whole heartedly agree. 

Cheers,
Chello...


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

tracey delin said:


> terrisita, you have alot of questions... I have to ask, as I assumed before and now I'm not so sure, but do you train in ipo? what sport do you train in? What's your background? I'm curious because you act like this is all so foreign so I'm just trying to understand where it is you are coming from as I probably assumed wrong. but at this point since everything she writes is so far out there for you I think a visit may be best. I have no idea how anyone could explain online every bit of their training and do it any real justice...


 
I think its always funny when it gets back to this especially after the invitation to questions. I have trained schutzhund but not titled it. As to the push/pull, I think it depends on who you work with even in schuzthund. Actually the push/pull thing is ongoing. I've had this discussion with my current decoy tutor. He HATES pulling and humping and sees it as a sign of stress/conflict. I don't know if its always stress/conflict. As far as the most recent schutzhund club I've spent time with, yes the training and rationale that Tracy H. speaks in terms of is completely foreign. Mostly its her rationale and characterization of the drives. Again, with the last club I trained with, no emphasis on pulling whatsoever. I just asked someone else who trained with the same club and they don't recall it either. Its been awhile but the foundation work was in prey, grips, targeting, coming into the body of the decoy and handling the pressure--etc. Thatt particular decoy hated whip stimulation as I recall. Never saw him with a whip. His emphasis was drives and motivation/reward. I've never seen prey-only training and didn't see prey-only with the last club. There is are stick hits, etc. amd the decoy certainly has mental and physical pressure. I have an interest in protection at this point in my life. Maybe at some point I may even train a dog if the right decoy entered my life and I had the right dog. Many of the principles are applicable to what I do full time--herding--especially characterizing drives. Although with herding, I can't as easily manipulate the stock as you can in protection, with the decoy, to build the dog. I have a dog now in our training group who has little to no fight drive. Outside of taking a hit and putting his little life at stake, he doesn't have much drive to control the stock outside of prey. He goes through the motions and pretty soon the stock realize there isn' much there and stop paying much attention to him. He's fine with that and its ho hum until one tries to bash his brains in. Then he decides maybe he ought to bring something to the table. His handler is new and that plays a part but really as I explained to him this is a difficult dog given his genetics.

I was under the impression Tracy wanted to outline the training based on what she said and you invited questions and thought there would be some especially since I thought the training was a bit unusual which I said from the outset. Interestingly enough you didn't say then that if I were experienced, it wouldn't be so foreign. You said, you expected questions. Wallah!!

I do like watching in person though when it presents itself. That's where I can really get a feel for the dog. 

T


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Dave Colborn said:


> Sorry for the double if not triple posting, but I am curious too. I know you were training Schutzhund dogs in the 80s...any more recent experience with bite sports?


 
2007-2008ish

T


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## Tracey Hughes (Jul 13, 2007)

I am all for the questions Terrasita, and your amount of experience doesn’t matter to me, as I believe anyone can learn. It is just tougher online.

Was the lack of pulling at US clubs? 

You will see more pulling done in Europe and they tend to be a bit more ahead of us in the training. As more people understand the benefits of it, they will change to pulling. 

I think some people are afraid of a pulling dog because they believe it is harder to out them, which is not true. Just comes down to training. As for the dogs being stressed, no. Sure it can be a sign of stress, but so can re gripping. Training again.


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## Tracey Hughes (Jul 13, 2007)

Terrasita,

I posted some articles for you. Enjoy!


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Tracey Hughes said:


> Terrasita,
> 
> I posted some articles for you. Enjoy!


Thanks!! 

T


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## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

terrista, I'm not sure why the defensiveness and "it always comes down to this" comment? I don't know what "this" is? of course I invited questioning as did Tracey, however when I did so I assumed you had s current background in the sport... making explanation and understanding on a message board halfway doable. after all your questions, some repetitive, and comments on how unusual and foreign it seemed I started realizing that I probably assumed wrong, as again I don't find it that unusual or foreign. I have no stake in this... I don't implement it nor plan to, I don't even like everything about it but I do more now than I did lol... which is why I asked as I was trying to understand your point of view and if the task of explaining was even possible at this point or too much to get into and better served as an eye witness.... nothing more nothing less... I just asked a question.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

tracey delin said:


> terrista, I'm not sure why the defensiveness and "it always comes down to this" comment? I don't know what "this" is? of course I invited questioning as did Tracey, however when I did so I assumed you had s current background in the sport... making explanation and understanding on a message board halfway doable. after all your questions, some repetitive, and comments on how unusual and foreign it seemed I started realizing that I probably assumed wrong, as again I don't find it that unusual or foreign. I have no stake in this... I don't implement it nor plan to, I don't even like everything about it but I do more now than I did lol... which is why I asked as I was trying to understand your point of view and if the task of explaining was even possible at this point or too much to get into and better served as an eye witness.... nothing more nothing less... I just asked a question.


 
Oh no, Tracy, not defensive, just factual. I don't have a dog in this hunt either. Like you, I always think training theories/discussions are interesting. I thought Tracy and I were doing fine with the discussion of her training. But you and others seem to think its impossible for her to outline her training or rationale for her beliefs--especially given my less than current training experience. Its refreshing to discuss something with someone who is secure in their beliefs and is willing to entertain and even encourages questions. I don't think my background is really relevant and it certainly isn't relevant to Tracy as she said. I guess we could always take it to PM if its too tedious for others. 

With the thought of future training out there, its always interesting for me to know and fully understand what type of training is out there. This facilitates me making an informed choice regarding what to subject my dog to. So I really appreciate Tracy H's time in posting and openess especially for people who don't have much experience. That way we don't go into something with blinders on.

As for the message board format--that's not a limitation to me. I've always felt there is lots here to learn and its always thought provoking as I contemplate my training with the dogs that I work. Look at the spread spinoffs and topics this has generated that are about training and reading dogs. Regardless of which side of the spectrum you exist, there is always potential for learning in discussing other methods, theories, beliefs, etc.

T


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## Marcelo Villanueva (Apr 8, 2012)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Oh no, Tracy, not defensive, just factual. I don't have a dog in this hunt either. Like you, I always think training theories/discussions are interesting. I thought Tracy and I were doing fine with the discussion of her training. But you and others seem to think its impossible for her to outline her training or rationale for her beliefs--especially given my less than current training experience. Its refreshing to discuss something with someone who is secure in their beliefs and is willing to entertain and even encourages questions. I don't think my background is really relevant and it certainly isn't relevant to Tracy as she said. I guess we could always take it to PM if its too tedious for others.
> 
> With the thought of future training out there, its always interesting for me to know and fully understand what type of training is out there. This facilitates me making an informed choice regarding what to subject my dog to. So I really appreciate Tracy H's time in posting and openess especially for people who don't have much experience. That way we don't go into something with blinders on.
> 
> ...


 
That does it Tracey Delin is off my FB friends .

Good discussion by all.


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## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

I still think you misunderstood, I wasnt trying to tell you not to ask. as you were shaking your head not understanding I was shaking my head not understanding why you weren't understanding lol... I think others were too... as I had assumed your experience was different... that's all lol. I love these discussions which I have already stated, lots for all to learn I think we agree on that... but there comes a point where the type word isn't enough and if you can understand WHY it's not getting through them that helps, knowing your audience can make a better teaching.

if you can I'm curious to know who you were training with, if you're not comfortable I understand.


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## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

Marcelo Villanueva said:


> That does it Tracey Delin is off my FB friends .
> 
> Good discussion by all.


it's ok I deleted you months ago after all your cee lo green love posts.. was making me ill:-&


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## Tracey Hughes (Jul 13, 2007)

tracey delin said:


> it's ok I deleted you months ago after all your cee lo green love posts.. was making me ill:-&


All I heard was laughter in the room, now I understand what was so amusing \\/

http://www.binsidetv.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/Cee-Lo.jpeg


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## Marcelo Villanueva (Apr 8, 2012)

Tracey Delin:


For you and only you ...


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## Tracey Hughes (Jul 13, 2007)




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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

tracey delin said:


> I still think you misunderstood, I wasnt trying to tell you not to ask. as you were shaking your head not understanding I was shaking my head not understanding why you weren't understanding lol... I think others were too... as I had assumed your experience was different... that's all lol. I love these discussions which I have already stated, lots for all to learn I think we agree on that... but there comes a point where the type word isn't enough and if you can understand WHY it's not getting through them that helps both.
> 
> if you can I'm curious to know who you were training with, if you're not comfortable I understand.


 
But my experience is different. I thought that was obvious when I said from the outset that the training was a tad unusual. I don't know what our assumption is based on. It does mean a lot to you though as you continue to inquire about it and its not your training that I'm asking questions about. You keep stating whether I understand something when my questions were about WHAT IS IT. I was asking and Tracy was wanting to tell me what her experiences and training system is. Before we get to understanding, we have to first ask what it is. I think Tracy H. understands that even though its as difficult for others as I thought it would be. I will readily admit it is entirely foreign to me to have a helper whip a dog while the handler is heeling away from the dog but like I said, whatever floats your boat with your dog. But for your curiousity and since its so important to you, schutzhund with Jan St. John/Erik Beasley, Tom/Holly Rose and later RWDC. Needless to say training has evolved and so has the breed I love so I've put this on the back burner until I am sure about obtaining the type of dog I want and what I want to do with it. Meanwhile, I continue the protection education with the decoys I've met and watched work dogs and this forum. Next time you encourage questions, I'll remember the experience angle.

T


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Marcelo Villanueva said:


> That does it Tracey Delin is off my FB friends .
> 
> Good discussion by all.


 
Hhahahahah, its not that deep. Actually, it would be even less deep if we weren't covered in snow and ice. But you're right great discusson. And thanks for the input--always like to read the decoy perspecive.

T


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## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

terrista, I give up lol you win... Just seeing how hard it is for you to understand that it was a simple question for my own understanding has well.. you've worn me out lol. you're reading way to deep... I'm not sure why I can't be curious as to your pov and where it comes from? but ok... Lol


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## Tracey Hughes (Jul 13, 2007)

We would never whip a dog while it was heeling. Just FYI. Whip cracking during OB would be done as a distraction from time to time though. And the sting on the butt as the dog is holding to get that pretty “spitting out” we like to see.


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## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

Tracey Hughes said:


> We would never whip a dog while it was heeling. Just FYI. Whip cracking during OB would be done as a distraction from time to time though. And the sting on the butt as the dog is holding to get that pretty “spitting out” we like to see.


She was referring to me lol... and I'm sure it's envisioned much worse than it is... Lol


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

tracey delin said:


> terrista, I give up lol you win... Just seeing how hard it is for you to understand that it was a simple question for my own understanding has well.. you've worn me out lol. you're reading way to deep... I'm not sure why I can't be curious as to your pov and where it comes from? but ok... Lol


 
I know, its really hard to understand but the only POV that I started with was to figure out Tracy H's POV. Now that I think I understand it, I'm good!!

T


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## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

Good.... then we're all good right? Lol


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## Marcelo Villanueva (Apr 8, 2012)

tracey delin said:


> Good.... then we're all good right? Lol


Ceelo's not finished with you...:twisted:


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

tracey delin said:


> Good.... then we're all good right? Lol


If you say so and glad to assist LOL.

T


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## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

Marcelo Villanueva said:


> Ceelo's not finished with you...:twisted:


Lol... sicko.... sick sick sick man you are[-X


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