# My new pups pedigree



## Ray Grant (Dec 11, 2012)

Hi, this is my new pups pedigree, I was wondering if any of you experts out there are familiar with any of his ancestors & if possible, would you be able to semi-predict what qualities they MAY pass off to him. I am interested in schutzhund training. Thanks, hopefully I can get some foresight on his possible potential. Thanks again for your time. 

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/dog.html?id=1357943&p=5-generation-pedigree-print (Dam)

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/dog.html?id=536189&p=6-generation-pedigree (Sire)

P.S. ALL Pros & Cons are welcomed


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## Mike Di Rago (Jan 9, 2009)

PM sent

Mike


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Mike Di Rago said:


> PM sent
> 
> Mike


Was hoping someone could expound on this.

T


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## Ray Grant (Dec 11, 2012)

Mike Di Rago said:


> PM sent
> 
> Mike


 
Thanks Mike, I appreciate it. Anyone else care to share their thouhgts???


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## kenneth roth (Jul 29, 2010)

the litter seems to have mostly ddr,cks, bloodlines. Whats the health testing say?


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## Ray Grant (Dec 11, 2012)

kenneth roth said:


> the litter seems to have mostly ddr,cks, bloodlines. Whats the health testing say?


 
Health Testing??? what exactly do you mean by that?


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Ray Grant said:


> Health Testing??? what exactly do you mean by that?


 I know you didn't mean it to be but your response speaks volumes. Health testing bare minimums fo rme are hip and elbow ratings after 2 years of age. Some rating systems allow one year as miniimum age; i.e. SV.

T


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## clifton anderson (Aug 30, 2007)

I see this as a basic Czech/ West working mix. The DDR dogs are primarily way back in the pedigree behind the Czech dogs used in z PS breeding station. I think this is a nice pedigree for a good working GS, if no health issues(hips/elbows), surface. The genetics of this pedigree is sound for working....not podium sport dogs, not prey monsters, but solid good working stock, jmo.


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## Ray Grant (Dec 11, 2012)

clifton anderson said:


> I see this as a basic Czech/ West working mix. The DDR dogs are primarily way back in the pedigree behind the Czech dogs used in z PS breeding station. I think this is a nice pedigree for a good working GS, if no health issues(hips/elbows), surface. The genetics of this pedigree is sound for working....not podium sport dogs, not prey monsters, but solid good working stock, jmo.


Thx, but I don't see the west german in the pedigree, would you mind pointing them out for me?


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## kenneth roth (Jul 29, 2010)

No health testing your saying, skip the litter, DDR west german? I thought it ment east german


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## Ray Grant (Dec 11, 2012)

kenneth roth said:


> No health testing your saying, skip the litter, DDR west german? I thought it ment east german


Both parents are health tested, both hips rated A1 & elbows normal, mom is DM N/N & dad is DM N/A. DDR is east german, I'm not sure which dogs are west german.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Ray Grant said:


> I'm not sure which dogs are west german.



I'm not good at pedigrees. I'd like to read about this too, and how good working stock (I think mentioned earlier) is assessed.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Pike Schafbachmühle, Peinghaus, Sickinger Moor - all serious breeding kennels.

The other half I cannot comment on.

But, what is wrong with you people? Have the pup checked out for health and afterwards for hips, elbows, spine, etc. and *Gottfriedstutz* start to work wth it, play with it, etc. You'll soon see what you are dealing with. Genetics are important but what you teach your pup is *ALL* important.

One small fact - the pup has you sussed out within a few minutes - make sure you don't take too long to suss the pup out :lol:


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## Ray Grant (Dec 11, 2012)

Gillian Schuler said:


> Pike Schafbachmühle, Peinghaus, Sickinger Moor - all serious breeding kennels.
> 
> The other half I cannot comment on.
> 
> ...


Thank you, I appreciate your advice.


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## clifton anderson (Aug 30, 2007)

Thanks Gillian...they are WEST lines, not DDR.....the top male outline of Zoran is West working line....the dam of Zoran has some west also but farther back. Their are some dogs in this pedigree that were amazing working producers but you have to make smart breeding choices with them or you can have more hip or elbow issues than you normally see..jmo


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

clifton anderson said:


> Thanks Gillian...they are WEST lines, not DDR.....the top male outline of Zoran is West working line....the dam of Zoran has some west also but farther back. Their are some dogs in this pedigree that were amazing working producers but you have to make smart breeding choices with them or you can have more hip or elbow issues than you normally see..jmo


 
And those are?? How do you quantify hip/elbow issues?

T


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## Ray Grant (Dec 11, 2012)

clifton anderson said:


> Thanks Gillian...they are WEST lines, not DDR.....the top male outline of Zoran is West working line....the dam of Zoran has some west also but farther back. Their are some dogs in this pedigree that were amazing working producers but you have to make smart breeding choices with them or you can have more hip or elbow issues than you normally see..jmo


Is there somewhere I can research to find which dogs in my dogs pediigree are from the west/czech/slovak or ddr lines? Thanks again for your input.


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## clifton anderson (Aug 30, 2007)

I don't quantify hips/elbows issues in this case....I know from my experience and extensive conversations with people I respect who have used these lines since their inception. It's just an opinion I have formulated over the years. That and twenty cents won't get you a cup of coffee...lol
@grant....send me a pm.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Ok, like I said Sickinger Moor and those behind it are West German.

What the other part of the pedigree is, I do not know.

But what does it matter - you have the pup and you have to work with it - I assume you are not intending sending it back because its pedigree is lacking??

If you want to, you can seek out a pup from any lines you wish - its all on the Internet.

But once you have decided on a pup and bought it, it is time to reflect on your qualities as a handler and what you intend to do with the pup. If you are lacking in experience you might have problems but this can be easily solved by joining a club.

The East German element existed for 40 years, not a lifetime.

I can only advise you to work with your pup and, hopefully under competent guidance, train it satisfactorily.

Studying the dog's pedigree will get you nowhere but learning to read your pup will result in a satisfactory training.

I have to add this even though it might come across harshly:

How many would be trainers of new pups have studied their own capabilities???


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## Ray Grant (Dec 11, 2012)

Gillian Schuler said:


> Ok, like I said Sickinger Moor and those behind it are West German.
> 
> What the other part of the pedigree is, I do not know.
> 
> ...


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Ray Grant said:


> Gillian Schuler said:
> 
> 
> > Ok, like I said Sickinger Moor and those behind it are West German.
> ...


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## Ray Grant (Dec 11, 2012)

Gillian Schuler said:


> Ray Grant said:
> 
> 
> > Forgive me for "bloviating" whatever that is!! I see my help was useless. You forgot to thank me for letting you know which dogs were West German but I guess you knew this tooand just wanted to chat about it........
> ...


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Ok no offence taken


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

shame on you Ray..for trying to find out more about your dog... tisk tisk...


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Yes, Joby, tisk, tisk


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Gillian Schuler said:


> Yes, Joby, tsk, tsk


 Happy Holidays Gillian!


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

What do you really want to say? Don't hide behind "Happy holidays". Be a man and come out with what you want to spout out about.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Gillian Schuler said:


> What do you really want to say? Don't hide behind "Happy holidays". Be a man and come out with what you want to spout out about.


that was it...

seriously...


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I forgot that cirticism is taken not taken lightly by some people. 

As to the thread starter, I seriously wonder why people place more emphasis on the dog's pedigree than giving thought to how they are going to work with the pup in hand. Apart from giving the pup back as unmanageable, what is the obvious solution?

The interest in the pedigree should have surely been investigated before one bought a pup??


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

hey I'm in the middle here.

I agree with you, and also agree that Ray should be free to find out as much about his dog as he likes to, whether that helps him train the dog at all or not. His reasons for wanting to find out more, may not have any bearing on his training methods or goals, may just be curiosity...


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Yeah, could be but a bit late to find out, don't you think?


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

These are all wonderfully compelling questions even the one about what bloviating is. It sounds like a dirty word or action to me.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

If it's simple curiosity, it probably doesn't matter when it comes up ....

You know those sites for researching your own ancestry? I guess you could say to anyone using such a site, "It's a little late now, isn't it?" 



PS
I'm not looking. I'm a-scared. :lol:


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Oh I guess learning about the pedigree does become more relevant if you have a great specimen and are considering breeding then it becomes important to know which combinations tend to produce which characteristics....you know like too much linebreeding on Grim z PS not good hips/ears that kind of stuff....but when you already have a pup....it kind of does not mean so much.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

ha ha, except that people don't use those cites for the same reasons Connie. I mean it's not like I went to ancestry.com to see if the child or man I just bought off the internet or from down around the corner is worth a shit.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Nicole Stark said:


> ha ha, except that people don't use those cites for the same reasons Connie. I mean it's not like I went to ancestry.com to see if the child or man I just bought off the internet or from down around the corner is worth a shit.




Ohhhhhh...... I misunderstood ancestry.com, then. :lol:

Carry on!


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Carry on!


LOL, naw you don't want that. I get kinda wild when I am bored and since I have the next 10+ days off I can feel myself getting wilder as the seconds tick by (gritting teeth). 

You guys threw off all the crazy people and I think I managed to run off anyone who would chat with me regularly so it's just you and I now! HA and this poor guys thread that I just did a broadie through.


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## Ray Grant (Dec 11, 2012)

Gillian Schuler said:


> I forgot that cirticism is taken not taken lightly by some people.
> 
> As to the thread starter, I seriously wonder why people place more emphasis on the dog's pedigree than giving thought to how they are going to work with the pup in hand. Apart from giving the pup back as unmanageable, what is the obvious solution?
> 
> The interest in the pedigree should have surely been investigated before one bought a pup??


 
Again, it's just PLAIN OLD CURIOSITY, I saw the pedigree before I purchased my pup & I did some research on his ancestors but what I came up with was limited & I wanted to find out more... I know there are many very astute people on this site who know a whole lot more about this than me so I figured I'd ask about it, AGAIN, THAT IS ALL. I don't really understand why you're making more of it than what it is. 

If you have any more info on the pedigree I am more than eager to learn, thanks again for your assistance.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Ray Grant said:


> .... it's just PLAIN OLD CURIOSITY, I saw the pedigree before I purchased my pup & I did some research on his ancestors but what I came up with was limited & I wanted to find out more .... If you have any more info on the pedigree I am more than eager to learn, thanks again for your assistance.



_
" ... it's just PLAIN OLD CURIOSITY"_


I have that too. 

Why not?


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Um Ray... those Californian's are "curious" in a weird way. Just ignore Connie before she reels you in too that curious world of hers. See, I'm my own sub moderator here. I keep the mods in check :lol:

Anyway, I hope whatever you find out about your pup gives you something to work with.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Nicole Stark said:


> Um Ray... those Californian's are "curious" in a weird way. Just ignore Connie before she reels you in too that curious world of hers. See, I'm my own sub moderator here. I keep the mods in check



:lol:

Ray, ignore all sub moderators doing sub moderating. :lol:


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

And returning to Ray's question:



Ray Grant said:


> Hi, this is my new pups pedigree, I was wondering if any of you experts out there are familiar with any of his ancestors & if possible, would you be able to semi-predict what qualities they MAY pass off to him. I am interested in schutzhund training. Thanks, hopefully I can get some foresight on his possible potential. Thanks again for your time.
> 
> http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/dog.html?id=1357943&p=5-generation-pedigree-print (Dam)
> 
> ...


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## Ray Grant (Dec 11, 2012)

You are ALL way to funny =D>


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

curiosity killed the cat...

or was it conjunctive heart failure???

either way my life was great for a few months, until 2 kittens came home unannounced...

I will admit the one is cool, but he has a death wish just like his fat predecessor..

may dog rest his soul...I mean God...

RIP ZUES....


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

I'm thinking if Daniel didn't know what I was talking about earlier he will now. Sure enough, the moon is full and bright.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Ray Grant said:


> You are ALL way to funny =D>


I think you have a good sense of humor and the kind of tolerance that serves one well on a working-dog 
board.


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## Donna DeYoung (Jan 29, 2010)

on the sire side, someone took a 3 generation Milberku female (descended from Policia) and bred her to a PS sire to get Argo. who was imported from Slovakia to US. I don't know anything about Milberku but it's good to see someone keeping daughters of daughters etc. 

The dam Bara is a Ben-Ju daughter, and grand-daughter of the famous Norbo Ben Ju. The dam's dam side is a little more loosely bred (more breeders and kennels).

Bara was also imported from Slovakia.

I have a dog that is sired by a Ben-Ju dog out of a Czech female. He came via Slovakia. He is a real dog. Social w/ my other dogs, playful, but serious in the bite work and civil as well. All around well balanced drive and powerful. I've learned alot w/ him.

Depends on what your pup inherited but hope you enjoy him and have fun!


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Donna DeYoung said:


> He is a real dog.


what makes him real? or more real than a fake dog?


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Donna DeYoung said:


> on the sire side, someone took a 3 generation Milberku female (descended from Policia) and bred her to a PS sire to get Argo. who was imported from Slovakia to US. I don't know anything about Milberku but it's good to see someone keeping daughters of daughters etc.
> 
> The dam Bara is a Ben-Ju daughter, and grand-daughter of the famous Norbo Ben Ju. The dam's dam side is a little more loosely bred (more breeders and kennels).
> 
> ...



One of my dogs is a grandson of Nixa Ben-Ju (littermate of Norbo) and he's a goofy clown with a dark side.


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## Ray Grant (Dec 11, 2012)

Connie Sutherland said:


> I think you have a good sense of humor and the kind of tolerance that serves one well on a working-dog
> board.


 
Thanks Connie, I appreciate the kind words.


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## Ray Grant (Dec 11, 2012)

:lol:


Donna DeYoung said:


> on the sire side, someone took a 3 generation Milberku female (descended from Policia) and bred her to a PS sire to get Argo. who was imported from Slovakia to US. I don't know anything about Milberku but it's good to see someone keeping daughters of daughters etc.
> 
> The dam Bara is a Ben-Ju daughter, and grand-daughter of the famous Norbo Ben Ju. The dam's dam side is a little more loosely bred (more breeders and kennels).
> 
> ...


 
Donna, GREAT post!!!, this is where I'm looking to go with this. I've read up on Norbo, Pike, Titus, Cordon, Grief zum Lahntal (even though he's 6th generation on the dam side I've heard his DNA travels well, I hope)\\/, Chuna, Omar, Gero, Gomo, Held, Golf, Bojar, Niko, Ex, Cak & the enigma Klara (who gives great hardness but is also known for producing not so good hips, I hope not)[-X. Basically, I'm trying to find out if the breedings done will intermingle well to bring out the best attributes the dogs have to offer while minimizing the negatives. 
I've read that in breeding you don't eschew any dog for 1 fault you have to look @ the TOTAL dog & see what it has to offer to improve the breed, then you start experimenting, trying to keep the negatives on the bottom of
the deck while pushing for the positives to be on top of the deck. Well, I guess I'll find out soon enough if it was a good shuffle.:lol: Again, this IS MY pup & I AM keeping him I just wanted to get a
glimpse of the possibilities, that is all. Thanks again EVERYONE for all your input, assistance & guidance, it's MUCH appreciated... If this can continue all the better.


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## clifton anderson (Aug 30, 2007)

Ray, I will send something to you later today as I mentioned....you are right in that certain clicks in the Eastern dogs seem to work real well, some not as well, and of course nobody can predict with certainy anything, but you can get educated guesses based on dialogue and experiences.


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## Ray Grant (Dec 11, 2012)

clifton anderson said:


> Ray, I will send something to you later today as I mentioned....you are right in that certain clicks in the Eastern dogs seem to work real well, some not as well, and of course nobody can predict with certainy anything, but you can get educated guesses based on dialogue and experiences.


Exactly...Thank you so much


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## Donna DeYoung (Jan 29, 2010)

Bob Scott said:


> One of my dogs is a grandson of Nixa Ben-Ju (littermate of Norbo) and he's a goofy clown with a dark side.


hmm, that describes my guy too. He can ham it up either way. Serious or goofy.


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## Ray Grant (Dec 11, 2012)

Beautiful dog!!!


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## Ray Grant (Dec 11, 2012)

I appreciate everyones input, if anyone else has something constructive to say that would be great, thanks again. 

P.S. My pup is 3 weeks old, woohooo!!!


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## Ray Grant (Dec 11, 2012)

Ray Grant said:


> I appreciate everyones input, if anyone else has something constructive to say that would be great, thanks again.
> 
> P.S. My pup is 3 weeks old, woohooo!!!


 
He was actually 4 weeks old @ the time I screwed up looking @ the calender. ](*,)
Anyway, I picked him up this week & he's a great looking dog that's dealing with the change & is socializing well#-o ...thanks again for all the help. :-D


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