# Please check out these pedigrees...



## Michele McAtee (Apr 10, 2006)

Anyone care to offer opinions, experiences, thoughts about the following dogs and/or the breedings? Which breeding would you choose and why?

Dam 1:
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/521612.html

Dam 2:
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/489244.html

Stud for both:
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/427170.html


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

I like Esta, because I know the lines better.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Odessa (same reasons as Mike gave, but for the other bitch : luv, luv luv Karthago) AKA: Yet another reason why I am not qualified to breed dogs!!


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## Michele McAtee (Apr 10, 2006)

susan tuck said:


> AKA: Yet another reason why I am not qualified to breed dogs!!


LOL. 

I must say though, you and Mike have better reasons than the gal at work who says Tessa because she's a prettier color!!!!


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## Lyn Chen (Jun 19, 2006)

Esta. Bred to Arras those ought to be some nice, hard, aggressive dogs. Pedigree just pretty much says fight drive everywhere. Of course maybe too much fight, I dunno.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

That Esta is a real nice dog. I saw her grip video.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Esta would definately be my choice.......HOWEVER..........I think your looking at dogs that could very well be as strong as what Cato came from. 
4-4,4 Mink
5-5 Gildo vom Korbrlbach
Two bada$$ MFers!
Are you looking for the same "type" dog?


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

My pups are similar lines to Esta's lines (Nick, Mink, linebred on Gildo). Now they are starting to grow up more I like them more and more each day, but I don't see any aggression or "fight" in them yet at 13 months old. I will see what they bring me in another 6-9 months. I blame the dam  "Something" is there though, I can see it, its just really really immature and I'm impatient


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

how old is esta?


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

Tim Martens said:


> how old is esta?


Esta v Krausplatz IPO 2 KKL2 
D.O.B. 5-02-04 
HD and ED "a"normal


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## Lyn Chen (Jun 19, 2006)

I agree, this isn't the kind of lines you need to be looking at if you want a dog with less aggressive tendencies (per the problem the op had with the first dog?). Even through just the father itself...going down from Pike...again lots of tendency towards active aggression. A joy to work but not really easy, that's of course if they exemplify what the lines characteristically are. Dogs are individuals but it's always best to stack things in your favour...


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## Michele McAtee (Apr 10, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> Are you looking for the same "type" dog?


GSD sans the sharp edge. Also, considering pet quality female this time (had 2 male dogs over the last 8 years.)

Any thoughts about pet quality out of working lines still having fun in schH?


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Michele McAtee said:


> Any thoughts about pet quality out of working lines still having fun in schH?


I wouldn't settle for less dog just look into some different lines. Believe me Shepherds don't have to be sharp to be excellent working dogs. 
A good kennel's breeding program is a evolution bringing in different traits into there lines so knowledge and understanding of what different breeding's may produce is very important to you. So if you don't know or understand ask for unbiased help. 
On a side note there are breeders that are mixing dogs that are a recipe for disaster or they are part of there recipe and don't have the sense to cull the ones they aren't going to keep in there programs. 
Certain good dogs/pups shouldn't end up in a novice hands ether and the breeder should have a pretty good idea of what there litter is going to be before placing them.


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

Oddesa is the better looking dog but her pedigree isn't what I like to see. Esta has the linebreeding so you will better know what to expect and it looks like my kinda dogs. The stud is nice, can't go wrong with a Dasty son. I like Dasty so much, I named my D litter pup Dasti even though she is female. I agree with some of the others, this may not be what you really want, if your last dog was too much. Best to talk to the breeder though and hopefully he has a feel for these dogs and can tell you what he expects. My breeder is always right on with his predictions and the litters are all very close. Not a couple good pups, a few mid pups and a couple crappers. All the pups are good. So hoping to scrape the barrel on a nice breeding, doesn't always workout. 

Going for a female may help, they seem to understand pups/children a little better but nothing is certain. It sounds like you don't need hard or sharp but more bidability and high pack drive. Don't get a dog because you like the breeding, if you will have to fight his genetics tooth and nail. There are dogs out there geneticly perfect for what you want. Just be honest with yourself and your breeder about what it is you want.


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## Lyn Chen (Jun 19, 2006)

How about the Asko Lutter type lines? Maybe Orry vh Antverpa, Fado Karthago, etc. More biddable type dogs, but still kicking ass in Schutzhund. If you said your last dog was too serious minded, I think you'll enjoy more the kind of dog that loves obedience for itself. Would you consider a different breeder?

Just because a pup is deemed pet quality at 8 weeks doesn't mean it's going to remain that way. How many times have we heard of the sleeper dog suddenly turning around when it hit puberty. Heck the pup that doesn't want to bite might be the more serious one when it gets older. Bloodlines are a better indicator of how a dog is going to turn out.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Lyn Chen said:


> How about the Asko Lutter type lines? Maybe Orry vh Antverpa, Fado Karthago, etc. More biddable type dogs, but still kicking ass in Schutzhund. If you said your last dog was too serious minded, I think you'll enjoy more the kind of dog that loves obedience for itself. Would you consider a different breeder?
> 
> Just because a pup is deemed pet quality at 8 weeks doesn't mean it's going to remain that way. How many times have we heard of the sleeper dog suddenly turning around when it hit puberty. Heck the pup that doesn't want to bite might be the more serious one when it gets older. Bloodlines are a better indicator of how a dog is going to turn out.


This is the type of dog I am talking about. The dogs mentioned above are what I have in my young dog's pedigree. Very biddable stable nice to be around but hot and nasty as hell on the field. Don't settle for less there are some very very nice dogs/pups born in the US.


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## James Larkey (Sep 2, 2007)

susan tuck said:


> That Esta is a real nice dog. I saw her grip video.


Is this the video you saw...

Esta v Krausplatz Video


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Michele McAtee said:


> GSD sans the sharp edge. Also, considering pet quality female this time (had 2 male dogs over the last 8 years.)
> 
> Any thoughts about pet quality out of working lines still having fun in schH?


I don't think a good working line dog necessarily has to be over the top sharp. My 4yr old GSD has a nice sharp side to him but he's also quite clear headed. I don't worry about my grandkids roughing him up a bit. That obviously doesn't mean that they are unsupervised though. 
He's all I need for "protection" in that he reacts strongly to anyone aproaching my yard, house or car. 
I don't know if he'll bite for real. With some testing I think so but that's not my interest so I haven't trained for it. 
We have a couple of dogs at club that are nice sport dogs yet still really nice family dogs.
There are very few litters where each and every pup will make a sport or working dog. That's where the more expierienced breeders come into play. They (should) know the personalities of every pup in a given litter.


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## Lyn Chen (Jun 19, 2006)

Sharpness is just one aspect of the dog's behaviour, really. To me it means the dog just 'notices' everything. Whether they react to it aggressively, defensively, etc., is a whole different thing altogether. My two are both sharp, one will bite and ask questions later, the other will only bite if really pushed. Different bloodlines (the one who'll bite immediately is Mink, Gildo based  ).


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

I like both pedigrees BUT I like Odessa's best for a breeding.In the three generations of both bitches Odessa has more V ratings on the dam's side. I like the fourth generation back on Esta's better but that's going further back and It doesn't look like the ratings are as good in the closer generations. I like Esta color better but you're not breeding for color.

I would choose Odessa.


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## Michele McAtee (Apr 10, 2006)

For Michelle who commented on Dasty...I've seen some videos of him too, impressive!.

Actually, have seen this son of Dasty, stud dog Arras in real life action, he is like a bull (in my mind)--hard hitting doggie!  Direct hit!


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## Trish Campbell (Nov 28, 2006)

I'm sorry, I'm not too good at reading all the posts-but did you have a dog that was too much before? Now looking for another pup?

Certain bloodlines are known for bringing aggression and hardness. But, you have to look at the parents to see if they actually are represenative of their lines, do they have those traits or not? I know you keep saying you want a dog that has less sharpness. Mink can bring in tons of drive, mouthiness, pushiness, can be alot of dog. I also know some dogs linebred on Mink that have had overbites, teeth issues..also can go through some developmental issues as far as being a bit reactive. Basically need some time to grow up...I've linebred on Gildo, have had lots of Korbelbach in my lines...can be hard dogs, brings in some stubborness, but also are tough dogs. Also I found to be slow maturing.. That is also some good old blood to have IMO in a breeding program. 
I know Dasty, I have experience with the F litter Karthago in my own breeding program, have seen alot of progeny from him...hard, tough dog, not handler aggressive. I've seen some big dogs from him-have to watch that, not the best pigment. I like his son Chello, bred to him myself. My female Branka had a litter with Maik..Maik has alot of aggression, again strong dog.. 
Talk to the breeder, ask what the breeding pair is producing. Look hard at the parents, their temperaments, drives, etc. to make sure it might not be too much for you.
Sounds like you want a dog to do sport but also has an off switch. To me, I like a dog that is a lion on the field, but a family member at home. I like a harder dog, but I also want a dog I can train and title, so not too stubborn...That to me is what a GSD should be.


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## Alegria Cebreco (Jul 25, 2007)

Now I am getting the impression that most "working dogs" are agressive and thinks everyone is a threat. Is it normal for all of them to be extremely sharp and lunge out at everyone? I thought a dog being clear-headed was a sought after trait? Cant agression be shown through many different ways and still be stable with a great temperament?


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## Trish Campbell (Nov 28, 2006)

I hope I didn't give you that impression, that's not the message I was trying to send. 
The OP was asking about the generalities of specific bloodlines..how much aggression are in those lines. Aggression isn't a dog who is unsolid, or a fear biter. IMO its a dog who is serious, one that when you talk about the different drives, isn't all prey drive, one that has a nice balance of drives. We are talking in a sport/schutzhund situation. To me a dog should be very solid, excellent temperament and nerves. A dog can completely have those qualities and also be a great dog to live with. You want a dog though when it's time to work who is ready to go...the OP it seems is wanting a dog who she can do sport with but also one that matches her handling skills.


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

"Now I am getting the impression that most "working dogs" are agressive and thinks everyone is a threat. Is it normal for all of them to be extremely sharp and lunge out at everyone? I thought a dog being clear-headed was a sought after trait? Cant agression be shown through many different ways and still be stable with a great temperament?"

Most dogs don't show aggression until someone/something brings it out. My dogs never looks/acts aggressive until we step on the field or I put him on the table. There has been no need or want for him to be aggressive at home. The most I get here is a little toy/food protective between dogs.

Stable as stable can be dogs, wont ever "look" aggessive. 1/2 the time looking or acting aggressive is a bluff and not even a strong dog. My dog is dull dull dull when speaking of sharp dogs. He's so sure of himself, not much deserves a reaction in his eyes. A "serious" dog or "sharp" dog means nothing unless you know in what context that "word" is beig used.

A stable dog should recognize a real threat from a child. Sure as a dog developes, he will get weird or change some. My dog had to be kept away from my daughter at 6-12 months due to his stupid size and dominance issues. He now can somewhat control his moves and doesn't see himself on the same or higher ground as my 13 year old.


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## Lyn Chen (Jun 19, 2006)

Dogs come in all sorts of flavours. You can't really just make a blanket statement. There are dogs with so called social aggression that, with proper training, are actually very stable dogs. Some people like that, some people don't. As well don't forget that dogs go through all sorts of growing phases. Some dogs who appear very nervy to some people at certain ages grow up to be very strong, dominant dogs...they just needed time to mature.

It's not that dogs are erratic and you can't really say for sure, but you need to know what you're looking at before you can even say anything, and most people don't. Some people think a hackly, barky, defensive dog is a "serious" dog that's out to get you, when in fact he's just scared of everything. And so on and so forth. And to make things worse, people have different needs for dogs and look at dogs according to what they'd like. Some want a dog that will bite first and ask questions later (what some call active aggression, and this is with the idea that a bad guy isn't going to make a show for your dog before he goes after you), while others need a dog that anyone can go up to and hug and needs to be put into a defensive mindset before it will bite (i.e. threat). So what's a good dog to one person isn't to another. 

So it's up to each individual person to evaluate what they need and want from a dog, to research the bloodlines that will get them what they want, and to raise it in such a way as to stack the odds in their favour. And just because a certain type of dog isn't what you like, doesn't mean it isn't the next person's dream dog.

Anyway, from what *I* really am sure of, is that the Lassie or Rin-tin-tin type dog doesn't exist. Dogs have good and bad points, you need to sacrifice some traits to get others, otherwise there wouldn't be breeders constantly trying to improve. Being objective when it comes to a dog's temperament rather than trying to personify them is the most helpful thing in the long run.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Trish wrote," ...I've linebred on Gildo, have had lots of Korbelbach in my lines...can be hard dogs, brings in some stubborness, but also are tough dogs. Also I found to be slow maturing.. That is also some good old blood to have IMO in a breeding program."

Well said. I too like the Korbelbach trates in dogs. Can be hard to train though. I like the challenge. My male Bentley's sire is Pike van Guy's Hof in which he gets the Korbelbach line. You have discribed Bentley to a T. Bentley is great with children, female dogs ( go figure) and puppies. Other male dogs he will give the stare but he knows not to react. Of course I direct his attention away from them. I wish I could clone him.


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

Lyn I just love everything you said. I agree 100%


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## Alegria Cebreco (Jul 25, 2007)

Michelle Kehoe said:


> Most dogs don't show aggression until someone/something brings it out. My dogs never looks/acts aggressive until we step on the field or I put him on the table. There has been no need or want for him to be aggressive at home. The most I get here is a little toy/food protective between dogs.
> 
> Stable as stable can be dogs, wont ever "look" aggessive. 1/2 the time looking or acting aggressive is a bluff and not even a strong dog. My dog is dull dull dull when speaking of sharp dogs. He's so sure of himself, not much deserves a reaction in his eyes. A "serious" dog or "sharp" dog means nothing unless you know in what context that "word" is beig used.
> 
> A stable dog should recognize a real threat from a child. Sure as a dog developes, he will get weird or change some. My dog had to be kept away from my daughter at 6-12 months due to his stupid size and dominance issues. He now can somewhat control his moves and doesn't see himself on the same or higher ground as my 13 year old.


Exactly!! Dogs that show unwarranted agression is not stable, IMO. Thankyou for your replies Trish and Lyn, I have a couple more questions but will start a new thread .


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## Lisa Clark (Feb 14, 2008)

If I was looking at the two litters I would go with Esta, but then I am a fan of the Mink that is coming through Funny. I own a Citty Haus Ming daughter. I would expect a lot of aggression from this cross, though, and pretty hard dogs. The only real unknown is Bullcharno.


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## Lyn Chen (Jun 19, 2006)

Lisa, what are some concerns of the Mink coming through Funny v Haus Ming?


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## Lisa Clark (Feb 14, 2008)

Like I said, aggression, hardness and very strong dogs. For me these would not be a concern.  For someone else they might be more dog than they want to handle.


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