# Hurry up and wait...



## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

So what is the big idea of folks wanting to do full bite grips and protection with a 6 month old puppy? What is wrong with the concept of waiting and enjoying the "time period or season" you have with the little one? :sad:


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## Anita Griffing (Aug 8, 2009)

Personally I like working the young dogs to imprint great grips and proof the bite. Some say you can lock them in prey, but if done properly that doesn't happen. On the other hand I know many successful people that wait for a dog to grow up... I think obviously there are pros and cons to both.
Anita


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## Mike Valente (Sep 14, 2010)

At 6mth old it is about imprinting and developing attributes IMO ,like a full grip developed through prey drive, but not doing protection training specifically. Allowing a pup to view and be imprinted by older dogs doing the work I believe goes a long way and makes future serious training an easier transition, I its imprinting attitude which is more easily transferred from dog to dog then trainer to dog. Let the dog dictate the training and progression, if a pup needs time to be a pup let it but some pups have no desire to act like a pup so in this instance you can skip a few steps if the pup says lets go give me more.
The pup should have the will for the work not simply reflect your will.


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## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

Howard Gaines III said:


> *So what is the big idea of folks wanting to do full bite grips and protection with a 6 month old puppy?* What is wrong with the concept of waiting and enjoying the "time period or season" you have with the little one? :sad:



Wouldn't know what's wrong with it. We even start a lot earlier.
Nothing wrong with it if the dog is ready for it.
We like it and the dogs love it, so why not?


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## Jerry Cudahy (Feb 18, 2010)

Howard Gaines III said:


> So what is the big idea of folks wanting to do full bite grips and protection with a 6 month old puppy? What is wrong with the concept of waiting and enjoying the "time period or season" you have with the little one? :sad:


6 months is such a waste of time when they can do the full bites at 6 weeks. Factomundo


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Howard Gaines III said:


> So what is the big idea of folks wanting to do full bite grips and protection with a 6 month old puppy? What is wrong with the concept of waiting and enjoying the "time period or season" you have with the little one? :sad:



to answer youre question with a question:

whats wrong with using whats there ? if the dog is willing then why not use it? 

why wait ? 

I honestly dont see any benefit in waiting and most certainly not if the dog is ready and is having fun doing it.

hell mine are biting way earlier then that and doing a lot of stuff and having fun doing it.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

I wasn't aware confident dogs had to be taught full bites. If I had a dog that had to be taught, that would be the first thing telling me I got the wrong dog.


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## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> I wasn't aware confident dogs had to be taught full bites. If I had a dog that had to be taught, that would be the first thing telling me I got the wrong dog.



True, but it's not the "biting" that has to be taught. If the grip is not there genetically then training is no use.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Don Turnipseed said:


> I wasn't aware confident dogs had to be taught full bites.


Confidence and biting style are two different things. Some dogs bite full and forward, some bite full and pull, some bite 3/4, etc but all can be confident. Or not. Some dogs are so genetically programmed to bite full that even though they are less than confident they still bite full. Until they aren't biting at all. I've seen more then one dog like that, the bite was full and calm, but the rest of the body language screamed "I'm not sure I want to be here". For some dogs the full bite is actually a confidence builder, almost like a "safe spot". 

It's like saying a confident dog is always a header in herding. Header, heeler, different styles for different dogs, which may or may not have anything to do with confidence.

As for the original question, why wait? If the dog is having fun, and not being pushed to hard, why not work them at an early age?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

probably depends a lot on the goals and expectations for the dog.

Are we talking sport work? PP or something else?

The dog I have had very little work in the first year. 
The goal was to evaluate the dog when it was older, to see what was there...as it was my first dutchie...

that being said, doing so has made training for sport much more difficult for me, although I only get bitework about 1-2 times a week in good weather months, and sometimes it goes a month or more without bitework...

Targeting has suffered, dog goes center mass more than I like, usually on decoys that are new to her..dog has trouble playing the game, wants more than the sport program is about, outing has not been a strong point, coulda taught that much more effectively as a pup...with a tug as a pup..dog has great drive for toys in OB, but is blind to toys in presence of a decoy, missed that boat...

starting a puppy to imprint mechanics, striking skills, targeting, outing, is the way to go if there are high expectations in dogsport, in my opinion.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> Confidence and biting style are two different things. Some dogs bite full and forward, some bite full and pull, some bite 3/4, etc but all can be confident. Or not. Some dogs are so genetically programmed to bite full that even though they are less than confident they still bite full. Until they aren't biting at all. I've seen more then one dog like that, the bite was full and calm, but the rest of the body language screamed "I'm not sure I want to be here". For some dogs the full bite is actually a confidence builder, almost like a "safe spot".
> 
> It's like saying a confident dog is always a header in herding. Header, heeler, different styles for different dogs, which may or may not have anything to do with confidence.
> 
> As for the original question, why wait? If the dog is having fun, and not being pushed to hard, why not work them at an early age?


Kadi, in all the hunting situations I have seen, the dog with a half assed bite is a weak dog that won't commit. He has a half assed bite because he is always ready to bail out if it gets rough. Those are also the dogs that get hurt and ass bit. The dog with the full mouth bite is fully committed to the kill and intends bodily harm big time. I personally think teaching a dog how to bite is all about protecting the decoys from getting seriously hurt. Biting comes far more natural to a dog than to people that think they know how a dog should bite. Push, pull, calm steady bite....who makes all this crap up.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Kadi, in all the hunting situations I have seen, the dog with a half assed bite is a weak dog that won't commit. He has a half assed bite because he is always ready to bail out if it gets rough. Those are also the dogs that get hurt and ass bit. The dog with the full mouth bite is fully committed to the kill and intends bodily harm big time. I personally think teaching a dog how to bite is all about protecting the decoys from getting seriously hurt. Biting comes far more natural to a dog than to people that think they know how a dog should bite.


I think we are talking apples and oranges. Is biting style something you specifically breed for, or is your observation of how your dogs bite a side effect of the traits you breed for? 

In dogs bred for protection sports, a style of bite is specifically bred for. That is why I mentioned headers vs heelers, another area a specific style in the work is being bred for. Which is why you can get dogs that make a pretty picture style wise, but don't actually have the character to do the work. Because the 'style' was bred into them. Might compare it to "eye" in a BC. Some BC's have so much of it they just can't help themselves, but they will still cut and run from livestock that actually stands it's ground.



> Push, pull, calm steady bite....who makes all this crap up.


People who are looking for criteria to judge on. 

Like I said before, I've seen to many dogs with a full mouth bite and 1 foot out the door, or a full mouth bite until a little pressure was applied, and to many dogs with 3/4 bites who can take all the pressure the decoy can dish out, to believe that full vs not full is an automatic coorelation to confidence or no confidence in bitework.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> I think we are talking apples and oranges. Is biting style something you specifically breed for, or is your observation of how your dogs bite a side effect of the traits you breed for?
> 
> In dogs bred for protection sports, a style of bite is specifically bred for. That is why I mentioned headers vs heelers, another area a specific style in the work is being bred for. Which is why you can get dogs that make a pretty picture style wise, but don't actually have the character to do the work. Because the 'style' was bred into them. Might compare it to "eye" in a BC. Some BC's have so much of it they just can't help themselves, but they will still cut and run from livestock that actually stands it's ground.
> 
> ...


I have seen a dog or two myself and what I see with the foot out the door is the ones with weak grips that won't fully commit. Hounds, curs etc, it has always been the same. In all my years I have only been able to get one dog that heeled but I wouldn't breed him as he was weak. All my dogs are head dogs and get fur all the way to the back of the jaw. Maybe we are just looking at dogs differently...or dogs that are not well bred for the purpose they are being used for. Maybe I see shallow bites as weak because the dog has no choice but to bail because he has inflicted zero damage to intimidate the prey. I see dogs with commited full mouth bites as super confident and not afraid to commit because that is what my dogs are. Others can see weak bites as just as confident if that is what they have sitting there but I don't agree.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

It's kind of like learning the martial arts, you can be flexiable and do back flips all day, but if you can counter an attack it seems to be a waste.

Strong puppies will rise over weak ones and teaching them HOW to bite and where to bite are good skills. I want a puppy that is willing to take instruction and to hurry the process along seems to put too much pressure on a critter that just needs to mature.


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## Alice Bezemer (Aug 4, 2010)

Don Turnipseed said:


> I wasn't aware confident dogs had to be taught full bites. If I had a dog that had to be taught, that would be the first thing telling me I got the wrong dog.



its not about teaching full bites in my eyes...its about teaching the dog what to do and when...and with that you can start really early depending on the dog ofcourse....and I dont agree with the whole wrong dog statement to be honest...some dogs are simply late in showing theirself and still go on to be very good working dogs. a good bite does not a confident dog make and a bad bite as in half bite or front teeth only doesnt mean its a bad dog...its what you teach them...most of mine had a nice full pushbite but ive had the few that would have a full bite and drag the decoy across the field as if they were playing fetch with the poor guy...its hell on the decoy and it is hell on the decoy material...which is a costly affair aswell....the advantage of a full push bite is also it doesnt shred...you dont want an LE dog to shred the suspect, you want it to stop the suspect...not do as much damage as possible.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

I think we've covered this territory before. I don't believe there is a 100% coorelation between what you see in a hunting dog and what I see in a bitework dog. If there was, every kick ass catch dog would be kick ass on humans to. Or every herding dog that got stomped and kept on working would be hard on humans to. Or a hard pit dog would also be an excellent bitework dog. And that's not the case. Maybe in hunting the full bite always translates to level of confidence, you have way more experience with hunting then I do so I'll take your word for it. But I have seen dogs in bitework where that's not the case. Wether you want to take my word for it or not, I don't think you can dispute I have way more experience in bitework then you do, and have probably seen a few more dogs doing bitework the you have.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> I think we've covered this territory before. I don't believe there is a 100% coorelation between what you see in a hunting dog and what I see in a bitework dog....


 The only things that are close, and there are some, is the idea of wanting to please the handler! If the dog/puppy doesn't want to please and try...why own it? Hunting dogs and PPD/PSD are as different as crab apples and eat'n apples!!!\\/:mrgreen: :twisted:


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

For bitework, I don't blame you for wanting to teach the dog where to bite, and how to bite. If you didn't it wouldn't be very spirting when a strong dog wraps a full mouth bite across the front of your face, your throat or the back of your neck. As I said, teaching the dog how to bite is for the decoys protection more than anything else. Example, my dogs have never had the learning experience of being taught where and how to bite. The grab each other by the face to stop the other dogs, or animals, ability do fight back. Or, they grab the other dog , badger, or whatever by the head or the back of the neck because they opponent cannot bite when in those positions. This is what comes natural....but....this obviously isn't going to work if you want anyone to decoy. Dogs are not stupid. They, left au naturale, will neutralize your defences. Coyotes work in tandem and cut the achilles from behind. A single dog may go for the leg to neutralize, he may see that the suit makes this a poor choice and rip your face off. You have no choice but to teach a dog how to bite if you want to do sport work halfway safely. While everyone can pretend there are tacticle reasons for the training, you still have the reality sitting facing you.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Dogs are dogs. You have fear biters that dart in and keep giving warning bites to back the people away and you have hunting dogs that dart in and out grabbing a little fur with the front teeth. You have the non fear biting dogs that just jump up and move you, you got the hunting dog that goes in fully committed and will kill and **** or coyote in front of him. Some dogs in all walks of life have it and some don't. Then, we can all rationalize that a weak dog really is strong. Using the different venue card is a classic....but it doesn't wash if the dog has been "successfully" bred to do the job.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Off topic..I think. Tactics are needed in many venues. I think Don, we are on the same page. I have worked with Labs doing field work and they MUST remain at a "whoa" to prevent them from being shot by hunters who never "look" for the dog. The police dog works FOR the handler and tactics MUST be there. But in a nutshell what you say is correct, they have it or they don't. You can't teach eating, you can teach social graces!!


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Off topic also....Will, I am back!!! :grin:


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## Steve Burger (Jan 2, 2009)

I can only speak for the theory of the training director and club where I train. Since there has been more than one handler from our club who have taken high in protection at the WUSV, I tend to view the philosophy as one that can achieve results. We do not believe in starting a dog on the sleeve until the dog is 12-13 months old. We (the individual handlers) do a lot of prey work with our own dogs with a tug up to that point. Our TD believes that starting a dog young on the sleeve produces dogs who on one hand are working in exclusively in prey, as well as not taking the helper or the work seriously.

The first introduction to protection work is started in defense work in the bushes. The work progresses from there to working on the helper. In nearly every case this involves working a dog with a balance of prey and defense. The exception would be dogs who are in a lot of conflict and a relatively thin nerve structure where the work would be more prey oriented even in protection. 

This tends to produce dogs who are serious in biting. This is also shown in working green dogs imported from Germany which happens very often at the club. The dogs come over as with complete fixation on the sleeve. These dogs will often be worked with a bite suit. You can see the transformation in the dog. Unfortunately some dogs are unable to make that transition and remain sleeve focused their whole career. They rarely can achieve the type of power and offensive fight drive that a dog will that really takes the helper seriously.

This is a lot closer to the real deal. Much more interesting to me than situations where the dogs play sleeve games.


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## Anita Griffing (Aug 8, 2009)

Kadi said: Confidence and biting style are two different things. Some dogs bite full and forward, some bite full and pull, some bite 3/4, etc but all can be confident. Or not. Some dogs are so genetically programmed to bite full that even though they are less than confident they still bite full. Until they aren't biting at all. I've seen more then one dog like that, the bite was full and calm, but the rest of the body language screamed "I'm not sure I want to be here". For some dogs the full bite is actually a confidence builder, almost like a "safe spot". 

It's like saying a confident dog is always a header in herding. Header, heeler, different styles for different dogs, which may or may not have anything to do with confidence.

As for the original question, why wait? If the dog is having fun, and not being pushed to hard, why not work them at an early age?

I agree 100 %! Well said. 
Anita


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