# Caucasian Shepherd's (Ovcharkas)



## Christopher Jones

I see these dogs are starting to become alot more popular now, and not in a good way. I saw A National Geographic story that really worried me, knowing of this breeds reputation for aggression.
You can watch it here 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mMwRGVLuq1Y
Now there is some stuff going on in this clip that are scary, from the attitude of the breeder to the useless people she sells them to. This breed is gonna make the news soon. 
A dog trainer friend of mine is from the Ukraine where he worked and trained many breeds from Dobermans, Rotts, GSD's, Giants, BRT's and Ovcharka's. He is a pretty hards guy, and a good trainer. He trained Police/Military dogs as well as Security, PP and his own dogs in ZKS, OKD etc. He was a breed warden of his local Dobermann club. So he is a very experienced and knowegable guy. Now in my chats with him the question of Ovcharka's would come up. Also the quetsion of "Whats the most aggressive and serious dogs in Russia?" His reply without any hesitation was "Caucasian Ovcharkas". And not just by a little bit. In his mind they are BY FAR more serious, aggressive and dangerous than any GSD or Mali or Rott, etc. 
I just wonder how this is gonna end up, and judging by the frightining National Geograhic video, it doesnt look good.


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## Erik Berg

Well, of course a dog of that size breed for suspicion and strong defencedrive is a more dangerous and more aggressive dogs compared to the malinois that is being breed for sport and a very high preydrive. The breed has already been in national TV here in sweden a while ago, more or less described as a killerdog that should be banned. Seems like the purpose of the program was more to make headlines as usual, many of the dogs that have attacked people were also mixes with ovcharka, sold to people who thought they look sweet. I guess pitbulls doesn´t intresst people anymore

A number of these dogs are working as guardogs, owned by guarddogs-firms behind fences here, that´s a perfect breed for that, can handle cold weather well also. But certainly not a breed for "pet-people" or most people really, maybe if you have a big fenced yard on the countryside somewhere and are a very responsible owner who knows the nature of these dogs.
Seems like people have forgotten about them know, the kennel club seems smart enough to understand that you can´t ban a breed, because then you will get mixed breeds instead who are equally dangerous in wrong hands.


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## Corina Annette Gonzalez

They definitely need a firm hand in handling. My friends have a pair of them (male & female) at their dog ranch. They specifically chose this breed to guard their property, home and other dogs from predators (and perhaps to scare off "crazy people"  - they live in a pretty remote area). 


My friends specifically chose them as they seemed to have the "best temperment" in reguards to "getting along" with other dogs. Their main job is to protect the existing dogs at the ranch from wildlife such as mountain lions and especially eagles!


They seem to make excellent protective dogs for their family or their village but generally CANNOT be trusted with strangers. 


Just as with any dog, I'd love to see responsible ownership promoted with the CO, not breed bans. The Caucasian Ovcharka is a unique and fascinating guardian breed, IMO.


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## Sherry Spivey

I totally respect and am in awe of these dogs, but I wouldn't want to own one. These are serious dogs. Unfortunately, there are people that "think" they can handle a dog like that and will get into big trouble. Those dogs outweigh the average person!

I see a lot of people get into trouble with a GSD. They get a lot more dog than they bargained for. I can't begin to imagine how much trouble they will find with a breed like this.

When we first started seeing videos of these dogs I looked to see if there were breeders here in the states. One website had some really gorgeous photos and described how "sweet and loveable" her dogs were, while charging a large sum of money for puppies, around $2500 if I remember correctly. She is not telling people anything about the other side of these "gentle giants"......:^o


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## Mike Lauer

all it will take is a human death and their popularity will soar
I know its sick but the crazies will come out of the woodwork 
aren't rotties bad enough with their defense drive
i can't imagine a higher defense on a bigger dog


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## Drew Peirce

anyone who's seriously considering one, dont waste your time, 99% of them bite out of fear and insecurity, and they will kill any other dog in the time it takes you to glance at your watch
they might do ok as junkyard dogs behind a fence but dont be duped into thinking these dogs can actually work, they wont


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## Anna Van Kovn

I do not like this breed. They do have a lot of problems and not easy to train. This is any aborigine breed.
You still can find in pedigree dogs that doesn't have parents.. nobody know their origin. 
1. They barely have any "prey drive"
2. They do not have strong connection to the owner.
3. They connect with the area - territory.
4. They very aggressive, sometimes passive - aggressive .
5. Slow because of size. and have health issue - displasya
6. Very dog aggressive.

They are perfect in Russia as any watch dog. Because they are able to survive without a lot of human contact and long hair protect them against cruel Russian weather. Most dog not social dogs. Do not try to teach them retrieve.. Yes, and they do have civil aggression but their bite on the sleeve or bite suite not good.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Shitters. Giant shitter dogs for the massively insecure to read all about the great Lawn and Garden Dogs.


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## susan tuck

Oh how can you say that Jeff???? Aren't there scores of people in need of protecting themselves from the dreaded attacking cars, malevolent UPS trucks and those dastardly baby stroller pushing evil doers??? :roll:

I also think that guy being dragged by his dog is exactly the kind of person who should not own one. He seems to love the fact that his dog is out of control. Stupid way to compensate for a tiny penis.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Apparently the wolves of North America are too much for these super powered shitters, I heard they run from the Timber wolves. LOL

So there you have it, complete worthlessness in one package. Long hair, sheds profusely, cannot do the work it is bred for, not easily trained, and weighs more than your spouse. 

What more could you ask for ?? Handler aggression ?? ASK NO MORE ! ! ! ! !


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## Mike Lauer

Anna Van Kovn said:


> 1. They barely have any "prey drive"
> 2. They do not have strong connection to the owner.
> 3. They connect with the area - territory.
> 4. They very aggressive, sometimes passive - aggressive .
> 5. Slow because of size. and have health issue - displasya
> 6. Very dog aggressive.
> .


so they're rottweilers? \\/


(LOL im just playin, rottie people dont get all mad at me)


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## xxxxxxxxKarina Scuckyte

Anna Van Kovn said:


> I do not like this breed. They do have a lot of problems and not easy to train. This is any aborigine breed.
> You still can find in pedigree dogs that doesn't have parents.. nobody know their origin.
> 1. They barely have any "prey drive"
> 2. They do not have strong connection to the owner.
> 3. They connect with the area - territory.
> 4. They very aggressive, sometimes passive - aggressive .
> 5. Slow because of size. and have health issue - displasya
> 6. Very dog aggressive.
> 
> They are perfect in Russia as any watch dog. Because they are able to survive without a lot of human contact and long hair protect them against cruel Russian weather. Most dog not social dogs. Do not try to teach them retrieve.. Yes, and they do have civil aggression but their bite on the sleeve or bite suite not good.


I just had to comment.

1. Yes, they almost don't have that. Most what you can expect is that eventually your dog will be in the mood for some tug work, but with pour bite and only for about 10 seconds. 
2. Now that's a lie. Most of them don't have any connection with their owners because they hardly see tham at all. If worked, thay develop a very strong bond, as any dog, I think. They do protect their owners everywhere, if they see them as their masters or partners.
3. That's right. Leave them for 10 minutes and it's already their teritory worth fighting for.
4. That's right. And there surely are many shitters in the breed.
5. A bit slower than a some working GSD, but faster then all showlines, if not dysplastic. Dysplazia is an issue, but not bigger than in GSD's. 
6. Only male-male and female-female. Normal ones don't attack dogs of different sex and puppies to about 8 months.

Socialness depends most on the conditions the dog is living in. if socialized, thay can be social in neutral territory. Retrieve is a difficult thing, but it can be done. Of course, only the forced retrieve. What comes to the bite, most for most dogs it's bad, but you can find some with normal ones. I have one if them. Strong bite with full mouth when in agression. 

I don't regret I got my dog. He's a super guardian and protector. Socialized quite much, so he can be trusted around people and dogs. He will react to a threat from a human, he surely will bite, agression is on instantly. But if everything is calm, he's a gentle giant. I let him loose in dog shows and competitions. He will lie down somewhere and I can forget about him. He doesn't react to other male dogs unless I let him to. Voice is enough. He doesn't have any play or food drive, but works great with praise and compulsion. He doesn't have HD problems, HD-A. I would like to always have a dog like that. With him I'm always safe. 

But with all that said, I don't think I will get another one after him. The risk is too big. Too many dogs with pour nerve and no balance. I would be afraid to get a dog like most of them. I will stuck with a GSDs and mals. Maybe I will get one with similar civil agression, good nerve, balance, great prey and food drives. The perfect dog.


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## Connie Losee

Wow. Never saw so much hair either. I can picture one of these as our livestock guardian dogs in Central Texas w/100 degree days...NOT!


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## Jim Domenico

These are not useless dogs, I lived in Italy for many years and we have similar breeds one in particular that I can come up with off the top of my head is the Maremma Sheepdog. I've also been through eastern europe where these dogs are in abundance.

The idiots in those videos have no idea, what the correct use is for these dogs or the way they should be handled.

Here is a great read up on them if anyone cares to get the full story and history of the breed:
http://molosserdogs.com/content1205.html

They are livestock guardians, they are bred to sit out in paddocks by themselves, in sub zero temperatures without a handler and protect livestock from predators such as wolves. They have little to no prey drive so that they don't redirect to the livestock, they are EXTREMELY dog aggressive as they are the main predators threatening their safekeep (sheep).

They are not supposed to be suburban watchdogs, they are supposed to have minimal human contact, most shepherds and herders actually leave them outside constantly, and just go out to dump food for them and leave again.

They were bred to run off, and even kill wolves if necessary, not sit around your back yard, do pp work, dog sports or any other kind of modernized "work."

The only "problem" with the breed, is that idiots don't know what they are for - they were bred for a job, they do that job better than any other dog on the face of the planet (arguably) maybe with the exception of CAO's, Kangals and a few other large molosser breeds.

And please lets not get into a dog vs wolves debate - lets just say, this is the dogs in their natural habitat, this video was taken in 1957 by either the Yugoslavian, or Soviet Army, I can't remember which, to showcase the ability of these dogs, because they were actually used in military service in whatever country it was.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3170gvlnPwU

Don't let the title fool you, you can see they are COs and not Wolfhounds in the video quite clearly, and there are 2 wolves if you watch closely.

There is also a noteable "famous" CO dog known as Kuraba (not sure on spelling) that has killed many wolves, and so have his offspring. These dogs are bred to kill, simple as that, because anything less against a wolf, and they'd end up dead themselves. An animal fighting to survive vs a dog fighting to kill, thats exactly what they wanted and exactly what they got.

I truly hope that this breed does not become popular, because they will be dangerous in suburbia and outside their natural habitat if not handled and cared for by the most stringent owner.

I've seen so many people here, damn BSL to hell and constantly preach its not the dog its the people... only to jump in here and see a 180 - "these dogs are useless and dangerous" - look at what you are saying, look at the breed history, and re-evaluate, its not the dogs, its the dumbasses on the other end of the rope.


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## Steven Stroupes

I think its pretty obvious that the idiots in that video have no idea what they're doing. This to me seems like another example of Americans wanting the biggest baddest thing out there. At one point in the video, the old guy who was getting pulled around by his dog said that his Caucasian outweighed his 150 lb Rottie by 30 pounds. It sounds like this guy buys large dogs and feeds them until they get as big as they possibly can. It seems from the video that there is already a potential for this breed to go down several bad roads that we've seen other breeds go down. Give it a little bit of time and this breed will have all the health issues that the GSD developed as a result of assholes trying to breed the biggest dogs possible AND the bad reputation that the Pitbull is still trying to recover from. I hate stupid people.


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## Jim Domenico

Steven Stroupes said:


> I think its pretty obvious that the idiots in that video have no idea what they're doing. This to me seems like another example of Americans wanting the biggest baddest thing out there. At one point in the video, the old guy who was getting pulled around by his dog said that his Caucasian outweighed his 150 lb Rottie by 30 pounds. It sounds like this guy buys large dogs and feeds them until they get as big as they possibly can. It seems from the video that there is already a potential for this breed to go down several bad roads that we've seen other breeds go down. Give it a little bit of time and this breed will have all the health issues that the GSD developed as a result of assholes trying to breed the biggest dogs possible AND the bad reputation that the Pitbull is still trying to recover from. I hate stupid people.


Its already happening, look up "bear type" CO - I wish I was kidding.


















There are plenty more examples out there.


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## Corina Annette Gonzalez

susan tuck said:


> Oh how can you say that Jeff???? Aren't there scores of people in need of protecting themselves from the dreaded attacking cars, malevolent UPS trucks and those dastardly baby stroller pushing evil doers??? :roll:


lol, the CO is perfect! Especially if your house is located near an intersection or just a busy street  .


That's horrible though...they shouldn't be living in apartments or traditional "city-like" backyards. These dogs need a decently large area of land so that they can do what comes naturally - guard their property and family (be it livestock, human, etc).


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## Jeff Oehlsen

You mean so that they have plenty of room to run when the foxes punk the curs


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## Anna Van Kovn

They really not that bad. 
Here is a nice video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gjXIoCIAVQI&feature=related


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## David Ruby

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Apparently the wolves of North America are too much for these super powered shitters, I heard they run from the Timber wolves. LOL
> 
> So there you have it, complete worthlessness in one package. Long hair, sheds profusely, cannot do the work it is bred for, not easily trained, and weighs more than your spouse.
> 
> What more could you ask for ?? Handler aggression ?? ASK NO MORE ! ! ! ! !


To play Devil's Advocate, if they were all generally as a rule that terrible at their job, why would they still be around? I'm not in the market for Caucasian Ovcharkas and not trying to advocate for the breed or even defend the breed per se. But there must be SOME good Ovcharkas, and I am aware of a couple trainers who think there are some good ones (all from one breeder I believe, but they are supposed to be pretty solid dogs for what they are albeit sharp temperamented and not what I think most would look for or want to live with). Even if most suck, there must be some good ones or else people would have just shot them and got some other big, impressive LSG-type dog. As opposed to developing them for the military and such, or even guarding the livestock. I would think it'd be a hard sell for a farmer to come to its herd and find the Ovcharka got curred by wolves (foxes?) and NOT shoot the thing, much less breed it.

And no, I don't buy the super-hype, and no I don't want one.

-Cheers


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## James Downey

"Socialness depends most on the conditions the dog is living in"

I do not think so, There are Genetic limitations and benefits for some dogs. A Black Lab may not have much Socialization though because of his Genetics have very little Social problems. You can do all the right things with some Malinois, and no matter what, they are going to be suspicious of the world. 

Enviorment is not the only thing that determines how social an animal is.


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## Erik Berg

Preydrive and trainability? Yes, that´s probably important for an independent working guarddog


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## Brad Anderson

I don't really contribute much to this forum, so I apologize for just randomly piping in and trolling...

My wife and I own 2 Caucasian Ovcharka, we got them to work on our ranch to help with the local predators issues. We live in a rather remote area; we have Coyote, Eagle, Mountain Lion, roaming packs of dogs, and the occasional wolf and/or black bear.

Luytiy:









Masha:









I did 2 years of research on LGD breeds before settling on the CO. We chose the CO because of it's rugged build, all-weather-ness, and (depending on lines) ability to co-exist with other dogs. Our CO work perfectly for us and do very well with our other dogs.

The health issues mentioned are a big issue with the CO breed, they are rather unhealthy - with HD showing up in 80% of the breed! While they are prone to some genetic health issues like that, they are also very rugged and are rarely sick. And, lets face it, this isn't much different from many of the other working breeds on this forum.

Before we added our CO to our ranch I constantly spotted predictors in our area - Lion, Coyote, and Eagle were our largest threat. We have a few rather rare breeds here, it would be a shame for them to be killed by a predator - and they are small enough for that. On many occasions I have chased Golden Eagle off our property; it eventually got to the point where I felt it was a serious issue - that is when I decided to get an LGD.

Since adding our 2 LGD we rarely see any predictors, the presence of our male is enough to keep them far away from our - and our neighbors - property. Our male is out 24/7, he spends all night out patrolling our property, doesn't bark unless he needs too, and learns our neighbors cars and visitors. He is incredibly smart - in a autonomous kinda way.

Our female is a bit more of a barker, and a bit more "short fused", so she sleeps inside at night, but is out during the day doing her job - rain or shine - hot or cold.

Our CO are intolerant to strangers on our property - honestly, they are a big liability, and require a setup that allows you to put them on "lock down" when needed (not unlike many GSD & Mal I have met). It's an adjustment, but I think the safety of our "live stock" is worth the extra work our CO require. Our male can leap a 7' fence with no hesitation - so we have double 8' fencing to keep everyone safe - because America is probably not the best place to allow a dog breed like the CO to roam.

Having written what I just did, the video posted in the first post of this thread is grossly exaggerated and sensationalized. The breeder they selected for that "documentary" is a bad example - the worst example. The owner was a terrible example too, there are bad owners (and breeders) in every breed - unfortunately.

Here is what the breeder from that show is up to these days (be sure to read the comments): http://yesbiscuit.blogspot.com/2009/07/dangerous-dog-congress.html

And here is a nice write up on the NatGeo documentary: http://esquirecaucasians.com/simpnews/news.php?lang=en&layout=esq&sortorder=0&category=0&category=7

One thing I think should be pointed out is that these are Livestock Guardians, or Property/Estate Guardians, NOT personal protection dogs. There was one impressive PP CO that was named "Valuray" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=msyHC6f4rK0), but the average CO is not worked like him and they are not really "designed" for that type of role. I'm not sure comparing CO to a GSD or Mal or Mastiff is an accurate comparison - they should be compared to LGD like the Kangal, GP, Anatolian, etc...

My wife and I also own a Cane Corso (pup), from a working kennel - he comes from a line of Police and PP dogs - and he is competently different in nature and M.O. to our COs. Blue, our CC, will guard our property but will stay close to the family, while our COs (Luytiy & Masha) are constantly on patrol, searching the perimeter for threats. Blue takes more of a "sit and watch" role while our CO take a "perimeter guard" role.

Blue:









----

@Jeff - You mention the North American Timber Wolf. Have you ever been face-to-face with one? If you have you would know that they are HUGE animals, much larger than any dog breed - their heads are incredibly large. There are very few dog breeds that would stand a chance in a scuffle with a North American Wolf. The wolves of Europe are smaller, that is the threat these "Volkodav" were expected to confront - not the N. American Grey Wolf.

----

Here are a few vids of our CO...

On the job:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0RM1AvvTCR4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ttjHf6TCJwE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-R_ZWxhrFLw

With our dogs:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8VKTCMlG6Wc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IUmBJN0Wz0s

With Us: 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jb8hIvRj_ik
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aR_R6DaiIMc

Thanx!

----


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Yes, and they are big, although I don't know about huge. Lets face it, a pack of them will lure your dogs one way and get your precious the other way. 

I am not sure you have much of a threat there. Sure, they are in the area, but are getting enough food that they were just looking for the freebie.

Not a fan of these dogs, the politics and backbiting that goes on with the breed, or of the idiot you posted info on.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gjXIoCIAVQI&NR=1



AWESOME.................not.


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## xxxxxxxxKarina Scuckyte

James Downey said:


> "Socialness depends most on the conditions the dog is living in"
> 
> I do not think so, There are Genetic limitations and benefits for some dogs. A Black Lab may not have much Socialization though because of his Genetics have very little Social problems. You can do all the right things with some Malinois, and no matter what, they are going to be suspicious of the world.
> 
> Enviorment is not the only thing that determines how social an animal is.


Of course, these dogs will be quite suspicious, even the most social ones. But if they have a clear head, they won't attack seriously until a real threat accurs. To me a social dog isn't the one which sees everyone as a friend or a pet/treat mashine, but the one, who can be around people with no problems ans still do their job. My CO mix is trusted around people, but I know, if someone will start shouting or raising their hands at me or him, he will bite. He will warn with a growl if you won't respect him (pet when he doesn't want it, move him and something like that). He can warn with a slight nip on your hand if you take them from your pockets sharply, if he won't like you (usually we don't like the same people with him). He will bark and growl at a gun. And I like, that if he sees I'm acting friendly to a human, he will go for a pet. 
And my CO mix is only slightly more suspicious than my workingline GSD. But the difference is, that he will react sooner and more agressively. And I generally like that. I can relax more around people with my GSD, but I don't feel as safe with her.


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## Daryl Ehret

Brad Anderson said:


> @Jeff - You mention the North American Timber Wolf. Have you ever been face-to-face with one? If you have you would know that they are HUGE animals, much larger than any dog breed - their heads are incredibly large. There are very few dog breeds that would stand a chance in a scuffle with a North American Wolf. The wolves of Europe are smaller, that is the threat these "Volkodav" were expected to confront - not the N. American Grey Wolf.


Thanks Brad for the comments. OT I know, but I wanted to emphasize your point with the photograph below. This was taken in Sun Valley ID this last summer, for having killed too many livestock. The man holding it up is 5'10".


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## Jeff Oehlsen

They are delicious as well.


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## susan tuck

BRAD: Thanks for your informative post and videos. It's nice to see dogs doing what they were bred to do, makes for happy dogs. I think it's great that ranchers are using dogs to protect their livestock. I have read that more ranchers in Africa are also using guardian breeds to protect their stock from predators. 

http://digitalcommons.unl.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1282&context=gpwdcwp


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## Jim Domenico

Daryl Ehret said:


> Thanks Brad for the comments. OT I know, but I wanted to emphasize your point with the photograph below. This was taken in Sun Valley ID this last summer, for having killed too many livestock. The man holding it up is 5'10".


Size wise, there are plenty of CO's and CAO's that go close to matching that. Don't get me wrong, I'm of the opinion that pretty much any dog regardless of breed would get their asses handed to them on a silver platter in the face of a North American Wolf Species, but just as a comparison of size for the curious here is an example:










There is a big big big big difference between NA Wolves and Eurasian Wolves lol


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## kristin tresidder

is it me, or does the wolf pic look kind of fake? i know they're big - it's just that photo looks a bit 'off' to me.


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## Brad Anderson

*@Jeff* - 



> I am not sure you have much of a threat there. Sure, they are in the area, but are getting enough food that they were just looking for the freebie.


I think you'd have a different opinion had you been here last night. But, I do agree, generally there is not an overwhelming threat - one CO would have sufficed, but I wouldn't feel comfortable without at least one LGD. The issue is I cannot be out 24/7, and so I could miss the opportunity to drive off a predator. Luytiy can be out 24/7, and if he removes the threat (as he has) then he is doing his job and is justified.




> the politics and backbiting that goes on with the breed, or of the idiot you posted info on.


Agreed. The politics in the breed are insane and will eventually ruin it.

----

*@Daryl* - 



> Thanks Brad for the comments. OT I know, but I wanted to emphasize your point with the photograph below. This was taken in Sun Valley ID this last summer, for having killed too many livestock. The man holding it up is 5'10".


Great example! My wife and I visited a wolf sanctuary in Divide and got a VIP tour, we got to interact with a few of the wolves. I was just amazed by their size, I had no idea they were that large. It put a different perspective on the wolf vs. dog debate that goes on and on, on so many different forums.

Here are a few size examples...























Granted, my wife and I are not huge people, and Luytiy is a medium sized CO, but these wolves (especially the arctic wolf) was a good bit bigger than him.

----

*@Karina* - 



> My CO mix is trusted around people, but I know, if someone will start shouting or raising their hands at me or him, he will bite. He will warn with a growl if you won't respect him (pet when he doesn't want it, move him and something like that). He can warn with a slight nip on your hand if you take them from your pockets sharply, if he won't like you (usually we don't like the same people with him)...


Your CO mix sounds great, Masha our female is like this - on or off property - but Luytiy is typical of the factory guardians of Russia, he is intolerant to strangers. Not that he will go right for a bite, he is just kinda obnoxious about it - barking, growling - making his presence known. We can ask him to be stop barking, and he will until we move to a different room with our guest (with Luytiy outside), then he will start up again.

I just don't see the point in pushing it with ours, so we just put them away when guests come over. Sometimes we leave Masha out - she is basically indifferent to guests.

Having said all that, Luytiy and Masha are angels off our property. You can even pet them.

----

*@Susan* - 



> I think it's great that ranchers are using dogs to protect their livestock. I have read that more ranchers in Africa are also using guardian breeds to protect their stock from predators.


I agree, I think LGD are a great alternative to killing, they are pretty environmentally friendly too. Tho, in the US it is hard to have them w/o a very secure fence - a lot of ranchers don't see to willing to fence in their flock.

As for Africa, my parents just got back from a trip over there and I asked that they take pictures of any dog they saw in the hopes I would get some good picks of LGD working in Africa. They got a few pics of Anatolians, which is cool... but I was really hoping to see some Boerboels.

----

*@Jim* - 



> Size wise, there are plenty of CO's and CAO's that go close to matching that. Don't get me wrong, I'm of the opinion


Agreed. I have met some impressively large CO and CAO as well (never met a Tobet tho). There are dogs that match the height and mass of the NA Wolves for sure (maybe even larger) - but none of them have a head as large as them. The NA Wolf head is really huge. 

We looked at CAO as well, actually I would have preferred a CAO - the CAO breeding community here in the US is just too small and limited as far as lines go. I was worried also about dog aggression as what I have read lead me to believe that dog aggression may be a bigger issue with CAO than CO. (while human aggression is a bigger issue with CO than with CAO)

I liked the CO & CAO due to their natural hatred of raptor, which is the predator I was most concerned with here. The CAO also has a natural hatred for snakes - that would be handy too... but I dunno that we need any more guardians. LOL

----


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## Jim Domenico

Brad Anderson said:


> ----
> 
> *@Jim* -
> 
> 
> 
> Agreed. I have met some impressively large CO and CAO as well (never met a Tobet tho). There are dogs that match the height and mass of the NA Wolves for sure (maybe even larger) - but none of them have a head as large as them. The NA Wolf head is really huge.
> 
> We looked at CAO as well, actually I would have preferred a CAO - the CAO breeding community here in the US is just too small and limited as far as lines go. I was worried also about dog aggression as what I have read lead me to believe that dog aggression may be a bigger issue with CAO than CO. (while human aggression is a bigger issue with CO than with CAO)
> 
> I liked the CO & CAO due to their natural hatred of raptor, which is the predator I was most concerned with here. The CAO also has a natural hatred for snakes - that would be handy too... but I dunno that we need any more guardians. LOL
> 
> ----


The "true" breeders of good working line CAO's are VERY VERY VERY reluctant to give up their dogs to anyone but family, or trusted people from their locality. That TOBET is a kazak CAO - they will not sell to any foreigner, and they wont sell to anyone outside their locality in kazakstan (i know i spelled that wrong) and even then they are still selective.

There are some amazing CAO's and also CO's around if you take the time to look into the breed and find the good true working lines. But there are also an equal amount of dogs that really aren't being utilized how they should be.

Many of the large LGD Molossers are like that though, and its not just now, all through history its been the same, with the Tibetan Mastiff, Sarplanic, Kangal even Greek Epir Molos... its a real shame, because the dogs, in their natural environment, and not toyed around with too much do an impeccable job of serving their purpose to its full extent.

As I said in an earlier post, its the people on the other end of the leash that need to learn their place - these dogs know there's.

EDIT: 

Forgot to mention you are pretty spot on with your analysis of CO compared to CAO in terms of aggressive tendencies.

Also, I really don't think these dogs are suited for use outside their place of origin (surprise surprise) - there are many other LGD breeds that would serve your purposes with much less fuss.

Last of all - if you check out the bone structure of some of the larger CAO's and CO's its not so much the fact that the "head" is smaller, the difference which is enormous and gives that illusion, is the jaw - I don't think many people comprehend the difference between a dogs jaw (especially a relatively short muzzled molosser like that Tobet) and that of a wolves.


----------



## Jim Domenico

Just for a quick visual comparison:









Wolf









GSD Skull

Notice the difference in measurement of the jaw length, and the volume of bone in the both of those, head size wise, pretty similar, jaw wise, there is a huge difference.

And in comparison with a short muzzeled breed:


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## Anna Kasho

Brad Anderson said:


> Masha our female is like this - on or off property - but Luytiy is typical of the factory guardians of Russia, he is intolerant to strangers. Not that he will go right for a bite, he is just kinda obnoxious about it - barking, growling - making his presence known. We can ask him to be stop barking, and he will until we move to a different room with our guest (with Luytiy outside), then he will start up again.
> 
> I just don't see the point in pushing it with ours, so we just put them away when guests come over. Sometimes we leave Masha out - she is basically indifferent to guests.
> 
> Having said all that, Luytiy and Masha are angels off our property. You can even pet them.


It's interesting to see you say that. In the little bit of video of them guarding and barking at stuff, Masha struck me as the more confident of the two.

FWIW I do not recall ever hearing my uncle's CO bark, of course I only visited and didn't live there. He had a routine where all the guests wold come in with him and sit down, he would hand everyone a cookie, and then bring the dog in. The dog would come smell you, take the cookie, and after that you were fine and the dog would allow you on the property. But if you left, you could not come back in without the owner. I liked that dog... 

How well do yours handle the heat? I'm told they overheat easily?


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## Brad Anderson

Anna Kasho said:


> It's interesting to see you say that. In the little bit of video of them guarding and barking at stuff, Masha struck me as the more confident of the two...
> 
> ...How well do yours handle the heat? I'm told they overheat easily?


Yes, good observation, Masha is really a very confident dog. Luytiy is pretty confident as well, but not like Masha's confidence - she has something special. Luytiy is GREAT with dogs tho, he is very comfortable with other dogs - Masha takes a bit to warm up to them.

Our CO do pretty well in the heat, but we are at a pretty high altitude here so the summers are short and peak at around 85F.

In one of those clips you can see Masha, Luytiy, & Blue out in their "chill den". I built those our of cinder blocks and set them into the ground about 3 feet so they stay nice and cool for them. During the hottest month Luytiy spent a good amount of time searching the property line and then retreating to a den to cool off (I built 3 of them). It averages about 20 degrees cooler in the den in the summer and 20 warmer in the den in the winter thanx to them being slightly subterranean and the nice arid climate we have here.










----


----------



## xxxxxxxxKarina Scuckyte

Brad Anderson said:


> *@Jeff* -
> Your CO mix sounds great, Masha our female is like this - on or off property - but Luytiy is typical of the factory guardians of Russia, he is intolerant to strangers. Not that he will go right for a bite, he is just kinda obnoxious about it - barking, growling - making his presence known. We can ask him to be stop barking, and he will until we move to a different room with our guest (with Luytiy outside), then he will start up again.
> 
> I just don't see the point in pushing it with ours, so we just put them away when guests come over. Sometimes we leave Masha out - she is basically indifferent to guests.
> 
> Having said all that, Luytiy and Masha are angels off our property. You can even pet them.


Well, my dog on his property is a devil. I didn't think I should tell about that, it's natural with these digs. He will bite anyone, who is not family or a good friend. He even nipped my grandmother, when she stood right after my mom. He didn't recognise her at first, he realised it's her already in the jump, so made a little bruise with his teeth, but we all saw, that he really tried not to hurt her. Then we thought, what if an intruder would be there? He's a great dog and I can deal with locking him in the kennel if we have guests, that he is not familiar with. He always jumps on the fence with growl and bark if someone passes through. Only neighbors can go calmly, but if they will stop to light a cigarette or tie a shoe, he will imediately run to attack. They are allowed only to be on their own territory and go through the front fence without stopping. We lived in a flat where he grew up and moved him to our property when burglaries started from us and our neighbors. It ended the same night he moved. In all the street. That's why even if he sometimes barks at night or does something like that, our neighbors don't mind. They know, that he saved their houses from thiefs too.

His coat is quite great for our wheather (to +25C in the summer and to -30C at winter). I shaved him for one summer, he felt a bit better, but it's really not worth it. Winter is his time, he just loves the snow. Only because of him I felt in love with winters, it's a marvelous time for outdoor activities wth him for me now.


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## mike suttle

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gjXIoCIAVQI&NR=1
> 
> 
> 
> AWESOME.................not.


Now that is a funny video. The dog of course is a bit of s shitter in my opinion, but still a funny video.=D>


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## Mike Scheiber

mike suttle said:


> Now that is a funny video. The dog of course is a bit of s shitter in my opinion, but still a funny video.=D>


I think there maybe shit elsewhere my guess is that guy in the suite is heading for the garden hose for some clean up :lol:


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## mike suttle

Mike Scheiber said:


> I think there maybe shit elsewhere my guess is that guy in the suite is heading for the garden hose for some clean up :lol:


I agree.....it looks like it scared the shit out of the decoy! And rightfully so........shitter or not, that dog is big, and nervy enough to bite the shit out of you. That bite could have actually been pretty bad for the decoy, he got lucky.


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## Kris Finison

Anna Van Kovn said:


> 1. They barely have any "prey drive"
> 2. They do not have strong connection to the owner.
> 3. They connect with the area - territory.
> 4. They very aggressive, sometimes passive - aggressive .
> 5. Slow because of size. and have health issue - displasya
> 6. Very dog aggressive.
> 
> They are perfect in Russia as any watch dog. Because they are able to survive without a lot of human contact and long hair protect them against cruel Russian weather. Most dog not social dogs. Do not try to teach them retrieve.. Yes, and they do have civil aggression but their bite on the sleeve or bite suite not good.


As a CO owner, I feel I must add to this topic.
While there are a *TON* of shitters in the breed (especially here in the US) there are also a number of dogs that are, for lack of better expression, worth their weight in gold.
However, in my experience, the problems arise when getting sport and PP people to understand how they function. 

1. Actually, they do have tons of prey drive, but simply tire quickly of games with the sleeve. Prey drive is simply geared towards exactly that - PREY... in the form of small animals. They don't care to play tug and rarely find reward in your praise but simply a confirmation that they've done the right thing.

2. Not true. They actually form a very close bond with their owner and family.

3. They are very territorial and establish their territory quickly. Generally it's hard to get one to turn on outside of it's "home turf" but are more than capable of being turned on with proper training and upbringing. 
4. Yes, not only they can be very outright aggressive but can hold a grudge. Again, depends on the upbringing, and relationship with the handler.

5. Slow? Not in the least. At leisure they tend to be lethargic, but when they need to act, they can move surprisingly fast. For example, the dam of my bitch (who happens to be 29" and 120lbs.) has jumped a picnic table length-wise as well as nearly clearing a 6ft privacy fence. 
Hip Dysplasia is a problem in the breed but it's no worse than in GSDs or any other large breed. They have a high pain tolerance.

6. Yes, they can be *VERY* dog (and human) aggressive. However, this can be dealt with through training. They're still a dog after all.

I undertand why many people crap on this breed. Not surprisingly most of these people are Mal and GSD (and like dog) trainers. That's fine.
Sure, they have crappy bites, they don't hold, they're rarely full mouth, they redirect very quickly if they feel they're not doing any damage... but that's part of what this breed is.
There's a reason this breed isn't used (and wasn't intended) for sport purposes.

(@Anna, this was not directed at you, but I was simply using your post as a format for my reply to all)


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## Kris Finison

Edit: Double post.


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## Kris Finison

I figure I'll throw up a video I made of my CO bitch here...

While I know it's none too pretty keep in mind that all of the protection footage was shot within 1 month of starting ANY protection training with her. 
The agility/obstacles was taken within two months of being introduced to it. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=daWpLQaXEYM


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## Anna Van Kovn

(@Anna, this was not directed at you, but I was simply using your post as a format for my reply to all)[/quote]
Don't worry. I understand. My family in Ukraine owned some CAO and CO in the past. I do have some experience with the breed. This breed is not for any sport and not for people who live in the city. But I do agree that nobody can protect territory better then them. You all forget another Russian breed .. "South Russian Ovcharka" or "Yuzhnorusskaya ovcharka". Anybody heard about them here in USA? Same use like CAO and CO
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WQMQ2EJ4Gvk&feature=related


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## Mike Scheiber

Karina Scuckyte said:


> Well, my dog on his property is a devil. I didn't think I should tell about that, it's natural with these digs. He will bite anyone, who is not family or a good friend. He even nipped my grandmother, when she stood right after my mom. He didn't recognise her at first, he realised it's her already in the jump, so made a little bruise with his teeth, but we all saw, that he really tried not to hurt her. Then we thought, what if an intruder would be there? He's a great dog and I can deal with locking him in the kennel if we have guests, that he is not familiar with. He always jumps on the fence with growl and bark if someone passes through. Only neighbors can go calmly, but if they will stop to light a cigarette or tie a shoe, he will imediately run to attack. They are allowed only to be on their own territory and go through the front fence without stopping. We lived in a flat where he grew up and moved him to our property when burglaries started from us and our neighbors. It ended the same night he moved. In all the street. That's why even if he sometimes barks at night or does something like that, our neighbors don't mind. They know, that he saved their houses from thiefs too.
> 
> His coat is quite great for our wheather (to +25C in the summer and to -30C at winter). I shaved him for one summer, he felt a bit better, but it's really not worth it. Winter is his time, he just loves the snow. Only because of him I felt in love with winters, it's a marvelous time for outdoor activities wth him for me now.


He sounds like a great dog for you and ware you live but this dog doesn't belong in America too many people, different culture and people would ether exploit these dogs or just have them for the wrong reason. There just aint many places here that this sort of dog would be practical or safe from him self.


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## Anna Van Kovn

Kris Finison said:


> I figure I'll throw up a video I made of my CO bitch here...
> 
> While I know it's none too pretty keep in mind that all of the protection footage was shot within 1 month of starting ANY protection training with her.
> The agility/obstacles was taken within two months of being introduced to it.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=daWpLQaXEYM


Very nice girl. She is not big. Nice size and very good drive for this breed.


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## Kris Finison

Anna: Thanks. Yes, she is a good size (still filling out). VERY agile, quick and serious. She is aloof and neutral with strangers but always on the watch. Always willing to turn on at a moment's notice.
Drives are good and she works very well, providing that any training scenarios are as real as possible and not repeated in succession.

Mike: You make some very astute observations. As much as I love this breed, all the while I've had my CO I've been saying that this breed doesn't belong in this country. I have to constantly be on watch because people here think big fuzzy dog = cuddly and friendly; which is exactly the opposite of her temperament.


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## Bob Scott

I'm not going to comment on good breed/bad breed or what they're good for. What I will comment on here is the "pack" of dogs in the videos. 
I've always ran 2-3-4 dogs together. Still run my two, intact, male GSDs in the same kennel run. 
for the past 50yrs people have been telling me "Your gonna have a terrible fight", or "I don't believe it when you tell me that", or It can't be done, yadda, yadda, yadda!
Here's and example of a yard with the CO and what looks like an Akita, a CC and other "aggressive" breeds that are together and seem quite comfortable with it. 
Don't care if these dogs hav no titles or 100 titles each. This is what leadership is all about. It has nothing to do with dog training. 
MANY dog trainers don''t have a clue about leadership. 
My kudos to the poster of those videos!


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## xxxxxxxxKarina Scuckyte

Mike Scheiber said:


> He sounds like a great dog for you and ware you live but this dog doesn't belong in America too many people, different culture and people would ether exploit these dogs or just have them for the wrong reason. There just aint many places here that this sort of dog would be practical or safe from him self.


Yes, I agree with that. It's a specific dog for a specific environment. We live in a city, quite many people, but most of them know what is a CO and respect these dogs. Our people like agressive dogs, are used to them. Rarely someone tries to pet a big dog, if it isn't a lab or St. Bernard. This dog is perfect for us, but I agree, that such dog can become a disaster in other environment, with different training, socializacion and mentality of people.


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## xxxxxxxxKarina Scuckyte

Dasha looks great, but I don't think these dogs need protection training, only if for obedience in protection. They have it in them naturally and it's the way it should be. I did only one basic protection session when he was 3 years old, it was a GSD club competition and he already had a live bite on a stupid drunk man, which acted not politely with me. We got 3rd place in obedience and 2nd in protection. He worked better than most of GSD's and it all was natural. I went there just for a joke when many people enqouraged me to try. I thought that he won't react at all, but the decoy was convincing. I liked that session, but I don't want to do it one more time, I barely could walk after the session, my sides were killing me and he was on a choke collar. I would flew after him if he would be on a harness. Only 50kg, he's small, but what force in action... And right after that session he sleeped right to the decoy for several hours, I was busy with my GSD, agression momentally went off. I really love his balance and nerves.


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## maggie fraser

Are any of you CS(O) folks familiar with the Sage Koochee? There had been one of these dogs (young) needing a home in the UK, it had been rescued and brought back by a couple of soldiers out in Afghanistan. At the age of 4 mths it had already had it's tail and ears hacked off, after reading up on the breed and as much as it interested me, didn't think I could offer it a justifiable home. It sounds a dog of very similar requirements to those which have been described on this thread.

A wee link http://www.moloss.com/brd/sx/s001/impfacts.html


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## Hugo Forno

I will post here some opinions about this thread and some pics as I have a little experience owning COs and CAOs for the last 7 or 8 years. Right now I have a male CO (1 year old) from Ukrania, 4 CAOs (different ages) from different places (Russia, Italy and Poland) and 1 Turkish sepherd. However at this moment I would like to know your opinion about the behaviour of these dogs one of which vids (tha last one) has been already posted here. Besides of the handler and/or the decoy poor performance, I would like to know if in your opinion these dogs bite is motivated by their prey drive or by their defense drive. Can you explain me what do you see here and why?

Thanks in advance for your opinions.

Vid 1:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FN06J_VjPD4

Vid 2:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DhPTS3_OLz8

Vid 3:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xYDsawtTIA0

Vid 4:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gjXIoCIAVQI

hugo


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## Kyle Sprag

None of the videos showed any Bite with Conviction and bad intent.


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## Jim Domenico

Kyle Sprag said:


> None of the videos showed any Bite with Conviction and bad intent.


Which can be explained by the lack of prey drive, and intense defensive drive, which is exactly what they were bred for.

There are videos out there highlighting this emphatically, but I WILL NOT post them, because they are dog fighting videos, and quite frankly, I find them sickening, but they are out there  all I'll say is, they are more than capable of biting with conviction, just not perhaps in the situations offered above.


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## Kyle Sprag

Jim Domenico said:


> Which can be explained by the lack of prey drive, and intense defensive drive, which is exactly what they were bred for.
> 
> There are videos out there highlighting this emphatically, but I WILL NOT post them, because they are dog fighting videos, and quite frankly, I find them sickening, but they are out there  all I'll say is, they are more than capable of biting with conviction, just not perhaps in the situations offered above.


 
I have seen the Dog Fighting videos some call a 'Test", IMO there is a BIG difference between Animal agression and Man agression.

A dog can bite a Man with Conviction WELL because he/she Wants to not because he/she has Prey Drive.


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## Mike Lauer

i hate working dogs like that, they seems to feel so much pressure they're unpredictable, and i am slow
like that last video showed on the attempted regrip to the face
I have hadyoung rots do that if you pressure them too much


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## Hugo Forno

But do you think by any chance that a dog of those characteristics threatened by an intruder is going to bite motivated by its prey drive? I mean that in that kind of situations a very high defence drive dog can only react and bite motivated by its defence drive. Do you agree?

hugo


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## Sarah Atlas

Did anyone notice in the video the guy being dragged stated that the dog decides what is a threat! Obviously everything is. Wonder when the dog decides the owner has become a threat?


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## David Ruby

Sarah Atlas said:


> Did anyone notice in the video the guy being dragged stated that the dog decides what is a threat! Obviously everything is. Wonder when the dog decides the owner has become a threat?


My guess is never.

I'm not sure it's fair to presume the dog is going to decide to take the owner out because it is apparently undersocialized, undertrained, and out of control. As a breed, Caucasian Ovcharkas are supposed to be very loyal and protective of their owner a/o property. As a breed type, livestock guardians have been bred to be absolutely non-threatening to the things they are going to protect. It should go against everything in the dog's nature to attack its owner. That is exactly what they have been bred against for a number of years.

On the other hand, I could totally see the dog trying to take out the guy's girlfriend or mom or delivery guy.

-Cheers


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## Mike Lauer

i know a guy whose boxer is like that, he decides who is a threat, 
i think its him not the breed thats the problem, no training whatsoever
its dangerous, the dog can be out at a picnic and love everyone, but for some reason he doesnt like me or one of his neighbors
turn your back on him and he will bite you
and this idiot lets him out without even a collar on so hes yelling get the house and the dog is like F U!

thats how breeds get bad names, bad owners


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## Kris Finison

Karina Scuckyte said:


> Dasha looks great, but I don't think these dogs need protection training, only if for obedience in protection. They have it in them naturally and it's the way it should be.


Karina, here's my take on it.
Yes they are naturally defensive and rarely need to have that brought out. They obviously weren't bred for sport purposes, either. 
However, if one has a dog that is naturally so highly defensive (and proactive about it), I think it's better to take them to protection training in order to show them what is okay to react to, what should be tolerated and to refer to me. I see it as being hardly much different from having a firearm and taking shooting and handling classes in order to know how to use it properly. Without proper training and and control, it's likely just an accident waiting to happen.


Incidentally, I'm curious how many people here have either owned or worked/decoyed for a CO?


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## Hugo Forno

It is funny but no one has answered any of my 2 questions. You are commenting the vids I posted but absolutely ignoring my doubts. Perhaps they are too sily, sorry for that.

Now, about who owned/trained etc. a CO, I had and already have COs and other asian dogs.

This was my first CO:



















And this ia a young guy (13 months old) I have right now:





























hugo


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## Dan Long

there is a woman on another dog forum i belong to who has these dogs, and she is showing them and actually has one or two that are therapy dogs. I can't imagine that these would be good examples of the breed, but I don't know as I don't know much about them. Would you trust a dog that has such a history as this to be a therapy dog?


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## andreas broqvist

Ohh I hate when peopel do that. Take a breed and finds dogs that absolutly not fitt the standard and promt them with titels that they SHLD NOT PASS. Why why and why, Its like havein a mali and use it as a soft mothed bird retrever and breed on thos traits, STUPID


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## Don Turnipseed

Beautiful Dogs. Look at the feet and legs on that last one. Damn!


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## Brad Anderson

Dan Long said:


> there is a woman on another dog forum i belong to who has these dogs, and she is showing them and actually has one or two that are therapy dogs. I can't imagine that these would be good examples of the breed, but I don't know as I don't know much about them. Would you trust a dog that has such a history as this to be a therapy dog?


I dunno who you are talking about, but your last statement is interesting...



> Would you trust a dog that has such a history as this to be a therapy dog?


This _is_ a "working dog" forum, most of the breeds on here "has such a history".

I know a few Pitbulls & one Tosa Inu that are amazing therapy dogs - I guess you would prefer they stay in the fighting ring and not be used for therapy? 

I dunno that I agree with making a CO a therapy dog or not, but I have noticed something...

For a forum that covers many different breeds listed in BSLs all over the US, there are very closed minded views on dog breed that aren't GSD or Mals.

I know a Cane Corso kennel that specializes in producing working Cane Corso and a few of their very impressive males have their TDI title, as well as ring sport titles and aptitude test titles (AD,TDI,GDI, IDT3...). These males perform amazingly as protection dogs and are fierce home/property guardians, yet they can work as therapy dogs too. Do you agree with this for the CC? How about for the GSD?

Why not expect the same from a CO?

----


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## Kris Finison

Maybe it has something to with the fact that Pits and Tosas (as you mentioned) were bred, selected and culled to be not only awesome fighters but to have little to no human aggression.
The COs, on the other hand, come from dogs that were not to trust any one (human or animal) near their flock aside form their masters. Then, also were selected and used for man work and as sentry dogs.

Sure, there are registered COs now that are perfectly capable of being therapy dogs. I have my opinion of them, and I'll leave it at this: there are breeds that were created for specific purposes. Why not use a breed for the job it was intended for, instead of jamming a square peg into a round hole?


----------



## Brad Anderson

Kris Finison said:


> Maybe it has something to with the fact that Pits and Tosas (as you mentioned) were bred, selected and culled to be not only awesome fighters but to have little to no human aggression.
> The COs, on the other hand, come from dogs that were not to trust any one (human or animal) near their flock aside form their masters. Then, also were selected and used for man work and as sentry dogs.
> 
> Sure, there are registered COs now that are perfectly capable of being therapy dogs. I have my opinion of them, and I'll leave it at this: there are breeds that were created for specific purposes. Why not use a breed for the job it was intended for, instead of jamming a square peg into a round hole?


Yes, I am aware that the Tosa Inu was created for fighting and not to be human aggression. The pit, however, was not originally selected to be a fighting dog or to be human aggressive, but has since been refined to be a fighter. They are not supposed to be human aggressive - I understand that - and my point was not that Tosa and/or Pits are human aggressive.

My point was that the Pitbull has a rather bad name for being an "aggressive breed". The media hype and BSLs are proof of this, so I was using them as an example, since even tho they have a negative hype, some are very good therapy dogs.

My comment was really directed at Dan's comment: _"dog that has such a history"_ , and not at the specific qualities of the CO (or Tosa or Pit) as a breed...

I was just pointing out that we should not spend so much time perpetuating "breed hype", especially if you are an owner of a breed that is subject to its own "breed hype".

And, IMHO, there is a certain level of hypocrisy in saying one guardian/protection breed is dangerous while another is not, or is less, dangerous. Truth is, they are all dangerous in the wrong hands - but what makes one breed "safer" for a task vs. another breed? The hype? That was the point I was making with it being OK to have a CC therapy dog but not ok to have a CO therapy dog.

----

As for your point on _"jamming a square peg into a round hole?"_, I actually agree with you. I was not arguing that the CO should be, or makes a good, therapy dog (hints my comment _"I dunno that I agree with making a CO a therapy dog"_). I actually think that's ridiculous. I know my COs wouldn't make good therapy dogs - and I would never want them to.

Again, I was pointing out the hypocrisy, and not making an argument that a Pitbull or Tosa Inu should be human aggressive or that a CO shouldn't be human aggressive.

I think we have all beaten the "COs are not teddy bears" thing to death on other forums and I wouldn't want to start that never ending argument here.

As for...



> there are breeds that were created for specific purposes. Why not use a breed for the job it was intended for, instead of jamming a square peg into a round hole?


Then shouldn't your CO be guarding a flock and not biting a sleeve? Or CCs be working for a butcher baiting bulls, guarding pigs, goats, and hay? Or a Mal be herding and not doing PP work? 

I sense a little hypocrisy there too.

----


----------



## Daryl Ehret

I'd be pretty impressed if ever I saw a mal that could herd well.


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## Dan Long

by "history" I was referring to what the dog has been bred to do for hundreds of years. A highly defensive guard dog that has been bred to take defending it's territory into it's own hands, not at the direction of a handler. It seems to me that a good example of this breed wouldn't let any stranger near it. So if you have one that is a therapy dog, would you trust it based on it's genetic make up? Would you trust it's training over everything it was bred to do? 

This has nothing to do with BSL, pitbulls or anything like that. Like someone said it's like putting a square peg into a round hole. Some dogs shouldn't be used for purposes they ere not meant to. Not every GSD can be a therapy dog, just like every GSD can't do bitework. I'm sure there are examples of many breeds that would make a good therapy dog, but the CO type dogs have not been commercialized and had their good traits bred down to make them family pets like so many other breeds have. I don't know that I would trust one of these dogs in a therapy setting, no matter how well trained it is. 

I had mentioned on that forum that I thought the CO was a one trick pony, because what it does, it does very well. At that point the lady got mad at me and the others who felt the same and posted videos showing they can do therapy, agility, bitework, obedience, tracking- anything a GSD can do. She got real aggressive towards how the GSD isn't the best dog either, until a bunch of people agreed with her and said yes, the GSD isn't the best at anything, but it's good at everything which is why it's used in so many applications. What was funny is all of the videos were crap. If the dogs are so good at these other things then she should have been able to find better examples. My Dane has a better bite than the one she posted, and the decoy was practically feeding the sleeve to the dog, which kept coming off the bite and doing frontal nip type bites. The agility was pathetic, someone in their back yard walking the dog over 1 foot tall jumps. The obedience was sloppy and forced. The tracking looked like someone taking their dog for a walk in a field of tall grass and the dog was randomly sniffing around. So I stood on my opinion that it's a one trick breed. Put them on a farm to guard livestock and watch them succeed.


----------



## Hugo Forno

Hugo Forno said:


> I will post here some opinions about this thread and some pics as I have a little experience owning COs and CAOs for the last 7 or 8 years. Right now I have a male CO (1 year old) from Ukrania, 4 CAOs (different ages) from different places (Russia, Italy and Poland) and 1 Turkish sepherd. However at this moment I would like to know your opinion about the behaviour of these dogs one of which vids (tha last one) has been already posted here. Besides of the handler and/or the decoy poor performance, I would like to know if in your opinion these dogs bite is motivated by their prey drive or by their defense drive. Can you explain me what do you see here and why?
> 
> Thanks in advance for your opinions.
> 
> Vid 1:
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FN06J_VjPD4
> 
> Vid 2:
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DhPTS3_OLz8
> 
> Vid 3:
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xYDsawtTIA0
> 
> Vid 4:
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gjXIoCIAVQI
> 
> hugo


 
OK, I will try one more time. May I get your opinion on the drive that these dogs disply in the vids?

Thanks again,

hugo


----------



## Brad Anderson

> by "history" I was referring to what the dog has been bred to do for hundreds of years. A highly defensive guard dog that has been bred to take defending it's territory into it's own hands, not at the direction of a handler.


Understood.

This thread started with the posting of an extremely biased "documentary", then escalated to a lot of crapping on a breed that many know very little about and fewer have lived with. So, I took your comment as another biased crapping on a breed. It sounds like I was mistaken, so I apologize. I am just not a fan of narrow views, breed hype, and sensationalism - especially when it can harm a breed in the long run or is presented incorrectly as "fact".



> It seems to me that a good example of this breed wouldn't let any stranger near it. So if you have one that is a therapy dog, would you trust it based on it's genetic make up?


I think that depends. These dogs are supposed to be aggressive on their property and neutral off property. So, IMHO, a good example of the breed would be aloof and generally uninterested with strangers _off their property_, and very aggressive toward strangers _on their property_.

So, if you wanted to subject your CO to being a therapy dog off their property then, yea, you should be able to do that (with a perfect example of the breed - _off their property_).

That doesn't mean I would work my COs to be therapy dogs. I know one of my COs is intolerant to strangers touching them in public (so perhaps that is a poor example of the breed).



> Would you trust it's training over everything it was bred to do?


I wouldn't trust a COs training over it's instinct to defend it's property - but I don't think that applies to the above (therapy) example as it's insticts and "design" should make it neutral off it's property.



> ...Not every GSD can be a therapy dog, just like every GSD can't do bite-work. I'm sure there are examples of many breeds that would make a good therapy dog, but the CO type dogs have not been commercialized and had their good traits bred down to make them family pets like so many other breeds have. I don't know that I would trust one of these dogs in a therapy setting, no matter how well trained it is.


So, this kinda feeds into my original point on _hypocrisy_.

Based on what you wrote, where you admitted not every GSD would be a good therapy dog, then why trust a GSD as a therapy dog over a CO? I mean, you could say exactly the same thing about the CO: _"Not every CO can be a therapy dog, just like every CO can't do bite-work [or guard property]."_

So, is a GSD that is not good for therapy, a good example of the GSD breed? How about one that doesn't do bite work? 

Or is it a per dog thing? If so, couldn't it be the same for the CO (a per dog thing)?



> I had mentioned on that forum that I thought the CO was a one trick pony, because what it does, it does very well... ... yes, the GSD isn't the best at anything, but it's good at everything which is why it's used in so many applications... ...So I stood on my opinion that it's a one trick breed. Put them on a farm to guard livestock and watch them succeed.


Ah, you make a good point here, and I agree that the CO is not the right choice for anything other than their intended purpose while a GSD appears to be a good at most anything.

How about the Mal? Where does it fit?

----

I guess my question is... What, in your (every one's) opinion, is the best path for the CO in the USA? 

Which would you prefer:

The CO, as a breed, dies off in America due to it's huge liability and lack of work (due to not needing its intended function) in America?

-or-

The CO evolves to be something slightly different, with less liability & risk - you can call it "softening" the breed?

_Which path do you want for the breed?_

I have grown to love the breed, and really appreciate it's natural abilities and insticts, and I honestly do not know what path is best for the breed.

On one hand, I would hate for them to disappear from the US (as then I couldn't continue to own one), and on the other hand I would hate for them to become a soft, pathetic, version of what the breed used to be (much like what has happened to the Akita Inu).

thoughts?

----


----------



## susan tuck

Daryl Ehret said:


> I'd be pretty impressed if ever I saw a mal that could herd well.


Seriously???? Then get ready to be impressed! Do a search of Kadi herding on this board. Here are a couple threads with pictures to get you started:
http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f33/ranch-large-flock-9521/

http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f33/herding-trial-results-photos-8652/

http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f22/puppies-sheep-4500/

http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f33/new-herding-titles-3817/

Video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pigv_zjRqv8

BRAD: I hate when any breed is dumbed down for the masses.


----------



## Daryl Ehret

Like a "fish out of water", though no insult intended. Does as well as I would expect many mals would. Of course it's not that simple. There's much to consider; the dog, the handler, the training, the work environment.

In defense of the dummy-down-approach; "general fitness" of breed is a consideration of any type of work. It's "human" to make generalizations or stereotypes as components for a fuller comprehension of the larger concepts in our scope (i.e., the job to be done). Of course, we know that there can be exceptions to the greater rule, i.e. a showline dog that can actually work well (and not just "going through the motions"). You could further consider fitness of a particular bloodline or fitness of an individual. Problem with _individuals_ who are the exception is, they don't reproduce themselves well.

As I mentioned in the Livestock Guardian Breed thread, the Kommondor breed was further sub-selected for which dogs would stay with the livestock, rather than persue the predator. This is an example of the _Gene-Environment fitness correlation_ at work. If one breed doesn't naturally work the same way as another, then you could perhaps take a different approach to achieve similar results if possible. But, this then creates a not-so-level playing field for being judged in competition purposes, resulting in a _less all-breed friendly_ sporting venue. _Can't have it both ways._


----------



## Mark Smith

I'm still trying to get over the posts that were saying these dogs do not belong in America. America is a big place with a wide variety of environments some of which are perfect for this breed. A rancher or two who posted in this thread have the perfect environment for this type of dog and still people were posting they should not be allowed here. A big thumbs up to those who did their research and selected the right dog for the job, they are certainly impressive in their element


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## susan tuck

I guess your definitions of "fish out of water" and "dumb down for the masses" are different from mine, Daryl. As they say, "to each, his own".


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## Kadi Thingvall

Daryl Ehret said:


> Like a "fish out of water", though no insult intended. Does as well as I would expect many mals would.


I'm curious what you mean by your "fish out of water" comment?


----------



## Kadi Thingvall

Brad Anderson said:


> Or a Mal be herding and not doing PP work?
> 
> I sense a little hypocrisy there too.
> 
> ----


If you look at the history of the Malinois, protection/police work has gone hand in hand with the development of the breed. http://www.dantero.com/belg_history.php


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## Tracey Hughes

How many GSDs can herd nowadays??? 

There is a cattle farmer here in Ontario who has Tervuren and Mals as his working farm dogs. If a GSD can herd there is no reason why a Malinois can't....


----------



## Kadi Thingvall

Tracey Hughes said:


> How many GSDs can herd nowadays???
> There is a cattle farmer here in Ontario who has Tervuren and Mals as his working farm dogs. If a GSD can herd there is no reason why a Malinois can't....


I've actually sold a number of pups to farmers who use them to work their livestock. Mainly cattle, but they are used as all purpose dogs for the cattle, sheep, pigs whatever needs to be moved around. Most of them wanted a dual purpose farm dog, something that could handle the livestock but also act as a PPD for the family.


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## Al Curbow

The 3rd video was the best dog,


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen

Look at your shitters and then look at what a dog is capable of.

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x3ghrk_championnat-ring-franchecomte-ulko

Maybe you are confused as why we think these dogs are a goof. This should help.


----------



## David Ruby

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Look at your shitters and then look at what a dog is capable of.
> 
> http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x3ghrk_championnat-ring-franchecomte-ulko
> 
> Maybe you are confused as why we think these dogs are a goof. This should help.


That _was_ a pretty cool video.

-Cheers


----------



## David Hogan

This is my first post to the forum (hi everyone), and as someone who is inexperienced in the protection dog world, I think I can offer some perspective on what ought to be the issue here: bad owners,public perception of a breed, and public perception of what it even means to have a protection dog in the first place.

National Geographic seems to have taken a sensationalist angle on the story about CO's; that's not in dispute. Something that a lot of you are overlooking due to your experience is that the Jackass who thinks an
out of control dog making its own calls in a suburban setting is pretty much in line with the general population's perception of what a "guard dog" is. *The only exceptional thing about this particular owner is that he has been keeping protection-oriented breeds since before I was born, and knows less about what they are capable of doing than I have learned in a few
months. To this guy, and to the public as a whole, a "guard dog" is a big scary breed that attacks anything that isn't its master. In other words, protection dogs begin and end with the junkyard dog who would tear evryone's throat out were it not for that fence. That you could have a dog trained to attack someone and then be pet by that same person seconds later simply because their master gave the order is just something about which the public is completely *unaware. Again, it's twice as disturbing coming from a guy who should have learned better in 1975, but it's not out of the ordinary that he should think that way. Most frightening is his belief that the CO should make it's own decisions about protection, because it wi probably take him up on that offer when he least expects it, and he doesn't seem to be in a position to do a damned thing about it if his dog makes up its mind to attack. And he thinks it's cute, because it's his dog. The equally ignorant public thinks it's terrifying because it's not their dog, and neither realizes that things don't have to be that way in the first place. *And so you get BSL.

I have no opinion what CO's "are like", but I hope no one's opinion is formed around the Nat Geo clip. These dogs seemed like extremely risky animals to have in a suburban setting. But their owners seemed to like it just that way. Cause/effect/correlation or what? I don't know. But before you cast stones and talk about how nobody should have one, remember someone is saying the same thing about your dog's breed too. And where does that end? It's a short walk from there to banning your Schutzhund "attack dog" training, because you shouldn't be allowed to have "attack dogs". The people who push that agenda will know NOTHING of what it is they are trying to ban, but they'll know it just doesn't
feel right, this crazy stuff you're doing. And The legislation will pass, because who needs to do that with dogs? Crazy people, that's who.

If you doubt it, just look around. How many of you can still buy a .22 rifle at your local Walmart? How many of you think protection dog training has a better lobby than the NRA?


----------



## Hugo Forno

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Look at your shitters and then look at what a dog is capable of.
> 
> http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x3ghrk_championnat-ring-franchecomte-ulko
> 
> Maybe you are confused as why we think these dogs are a goof. This should help.


I don't know who are you talking to; I don't know which dog are you comparing this to.

hugo


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## Jeff Oehlsen

ANy shitter CO CAO out there. Can't do the work=shitter.


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## Hugo Forno

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> ANy shitter CO CAO out there. Can't do the work=shitter.


Now I understand. But that means nothing. I can also say look at your shitters, and then look what a good guard dog is capable to do. I mean any GSD that can't do the work = shitter (and as you know there are a lot).

hugo


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## Jeff Oehlsen

But then again, look what they CAN do, that the CO CAO cannot, which is a LOT.


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## Hugo Forno

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> But then again, look what they CAN do, that the CO CAO cannot, which is a LOT.


So what, they are different dogs with different capabilities. Do you think that a Mal can defend flock or whatever from predators? Now look what a Greyhound can do or what a Dogo Argentino or an Alano Español can do and the GSD or Mal cannot. What is your point? That a GSD or a Mal or DSD are better PP dogs than CO, CAO, Sage Koochee, etc.? No one can say the contrary. But if your point is that CO, CAO, etc. are shitter dogs you are absolutely wrong.

hugo


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## Mike Howard

CO is a very old, rustic and beautiful breed--with a very specific purpose. They are not, in my opinion, suitable for urban life. My criteria for what makes a good PP dog is based on several things. 

However, I think any owner who lets their dog 'pull' and 'fight' the lead in attack mode has a lack of control of the dog. There is a fine line between letting the dog react out of circumstance, and letting him protect at his own will. To own a dog that is a good house pet, civilized in public, and protector--control is key. 

That is not to say that the CO does not make a good guard dog. What I am saying is, if someone was attacking me with a weapon, I would rather have a 60lbs. trained malinois or dutchie protecting me than a 200lbs. Ovcharka, and that's the truth.

But of course I love Malinois and Dutch Shepherds


----------



## Mike Howard

Hugo Forno said:


> So what, they are different dogs with different capabilities. Do you think that a Mal can defend flock or whatever from predators? Now look what a Greyhound can do or what a Dogo Argentino or an Alano Español can do and the GSD or Mal cannot. What is your point? That a GSD or a Mal or DSD are better PP dogs than CO, CAO, Sage Koochee, etc.? No one can say the contrary. But if your point is that CO, CAO, etc. are shitter dogs you are absolutely wrong.
> 
> hugo


I agree with you insofar that certain breeds are more suitable for certain jobs, and certain people too.


----------



## Hugo Forno

Mike Howard said:


> CO is a very old, rustic and beautiful breed--with a very specific purpose. They are not, in my opinion, suitable for urban life. My criteria for what makes a good PP dog is based on several things.
> 
> However, I think any owner who lets their dog 'pull' and 'fight' the lead in attack mode has a lack of control of the dog. There is a fine line between letting the dog react out of circumstance, and letting him protect at his own will. To own a dog that is a good house pet, civilized in public, and protector--control is key.
> 
> That is not to say that the CO does not make a good guard dog. What I am saying is, if someone was attacking me with a weapon, I would rather have a 60lbs. trained malinois or dutchie protecting me than a 200lbs. Ovcharka, and that's the truth.
> 
> But of course I love Malinois and Dutch Shepherds


Gampr (Armenia), Nagazi (Tushetian, Georgia), Azerbaijan Mountain Dog, North Caucasian Volkodav (North Ossetia) are very old, rustic and beautiful dogs. CO (I mean Russian version) is rustic and beautiful but not old at all, but created (or recreated or rescued as you may prefer) by former Soviet Union canine authorities for a very specific purpose an that was not as a LGD even if it has a lot of LGD blood on his veins. The purpose was to serve as militar, guard, patrol dog. Just to have an Idea, when Berlin wall falled down 7000 CO were released as their sole function was to patrol the wall.

Yes, you are right, "there is a fine line between letting the dog react out of circumstance, and letting him protect at his own will"; but there is such a line, and CO is in the side in which dogs protect you at their own will even if you cannot give commands to the dog.

"What I am saying is, if someone was attacking me with a weapon, I would rather have a 60lbs. trained malinois or dutchie protecting me than a 200lbs. Ovcharka, and that's the truth." May I ask why? Just want to understant your reasons.

Mals and Dutchs are terrific dogs for sure I perfectly understand why you love them.

hugo

p.s. 200 lbs. CO is too heavy


----------



## Steven Stroupes

"What I am saying is, if someone was attacking me with a weapon, I would rather have a 60lbs. trained malinois or dutchie protecting me than a 200lbs. Ovcharka, and that's the truth." May I ask why? Just want to understant your reasons.



Hugo, 

I'm going to take a stab as to why this guy would say that. I've not been in the dog sport world very long. However, I've had the opportunity to see some very nice dogs of many different breeds. I think that few people would disagree with me if I said that as a general rule of thumb, Mals have naturally higher drives than many other breeds. There was recently a thread about dogs that "bite the hardest" and its relationship to a dog's natural fight drive. For example, there was speculation as to whether or not the Bully breeds bite to the full potential given to them by their jaw structure since theese breeds don't "fight the man" as strong as some other breeds. 

It has been my experience that the hardest dogs to handle as a decoy are not always the biggest ones. Some of the Mals that have EXTREME drives can do more damage than a larger dog that has nothing more that sheer brute strength. Not to mention that the speed and athleticism of the smaller dog allows them to take down the armed attacker more quickly and at a greater distance from you.

Again, all of this depends on the individual dog. But based on my experience and personal preference, I would rather have a well trained, high drive Mal or Dutchie over just about any other breed I've seen.


----------



## Mike Howard

Steven Stroupes said:


> "What I am saying is, if someone was attacking me with a weapon, I would rather have a 60lbs. trained malinois or dutchie protecting me than a 200lbs. Ovcharka, and that's the truth." May I ask why? Just want to understant your reasons.


Absolutely, and to be clear, I am _not_ knocking the Ovcharka--I am sure it is a very good, if not exceptional guard dog.

In a dangerous situation the most important aspect, in my opinion, is control. From the videos I have watched, shows I have attended and my own personal experience with PP dogs is that Malinois/Dutch are quicker, faster, smarter and hit harder than most breeds. Demobilization of the 'attacker' is key here--a full bite, and the necessary drive to fight is important. Having control over your dog is crucial--

Which is precisely why police and special task forces use them...

Moreover, they are simply more versatile, and blend into an urban environment much better-- 

Love those big old sheep dogs though. They sure are beautiful--


----------



## Hugo Forno

Steven and Mike, thanks a lot for your opinions. I appreciate them very much.

hugo


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## Curtis McHail

This is too good!!!!!!!!! Caucasian Ovcharka = Fear biting mastiff mutt. If I had to get an "exotic" breed...I'd go with a Fila...and I'm not HUGE fans of them either. The only "exotic" to be worth it's weight in dog poo are American Bulldogs bred by the competent. But since they're American, they're not "exotic" enough for most bandwagon riders.

As far as North American Wolves, they aren't that big. Most of the wolves in the lower 48 ARE NOT Canis lupus aka not the subspecies of wolf that was originally found here. They are Canis lupus arctos, the arctic wolf, brought in from Alaska and Northern Canada. Somehow people think bringing a completely different, MASSIVE subspecies of wolf from another part of the world is conservation. This would be like us bringing in Kodiak Brown Bear to replace Grizzlies in the lower 48...stupid stupid stupid idea!

That said: ALL wolves including the 150lbs Canis lupus arctos, are WEAK tempered, COWARDLY animals. BRAVE wolves are extinct...they died out when they decided to challenge Saber Tooth Cats, Dyer Wolves and Short-faced Bears over kills LMAO. If your 50 pound Australian Cattle Dog can't chase off a wolf he's worthless. Wolves don't fight, they are wild animals, they aren't big enough to be able to afford confrontation and risk injury. They don't have people to take them to the vet and feed them pellets while they nurse a broken leg or severe wound and raging infection. Grizzly Bear are 10 times more secure of themselves because of their mass and a 50lbs cattle dog can chase 90% of them off too!

In conclusion (LOL) you can have a pack of Ovmuttkas...I'll take a lawn chair from your backyard and do a "Dog Whisperer" style move and use it as a shield and walk right in your house. Can't do that with a well bred, well trained GSD or Malinois...they're not intimidated by deadly lawn chairs and threatening cars!


----------



## Daryl Ehret

Cowardly and weak tempered does not however mean not dangerous. In groups they attack and kill not only livestock, but also dogs, to include livestock protection dogs. I remember just one rancher in Montana losing four herding dogs this year, confirmed kills by wolves.

This report from Idaho, is only SO FAR this year...



> FY2009 livestock depredations due to wolves
> 
> 
> Confirmed
> 
> 76 calves (killed) 8 calves (injured
> 
> 12 cows (killed) 1 bull (injured)
> 
> 342 sheep (killed) 20 sheep (injured)
> 
> 17 dogs (killed) 6 dogs (injured)
> 
> 
> Probable
> 
> 23 calves (killed) 3 calves (injured)
> 
> 1 cow (killed)
> 
> 156 sheep (killed)
> 
> 4dogs (killed) 2 dogs (injured)
> 
> 
> SOURCE: Idaho Wildlife Services


What makes these figures even MORE interesting, is that the attacks on dogs are dramatically increasing. According to this source, the total depredation of dogs from 1995 to last year (14 years time) in the state of Idaho was only 60. The trend shows, this figure will double in only two more years.

The thing is, wolf population has grown EXPONENTIALLY, year after year, so it's only natural that these incidences will be on the rise. This report shows that wolf population has DOUBLED every 3-4 years. That means an ADDITIONAL 1,650 wolves in MT, WY, and ID by 2012!

I saw a youtube video sometime last week of two wolves working on a grizzly sow, to separate her from her cub. _Just to illustrate that weak nerve can be tempered with numerical strength._


----------



## Daryl Ehret

double post, got disconnected


----------



## Curtis McHail

Daryl I've spent my time with wolves in Canada and Alaska...I'm very confident the dogs killed were small or at best weak and acting prey like. But you are right, in a pack they are dangerous to animals and livestock. Only these supersized wolves from north country are capable of killing so many full grown cows...maybe the ranchers shouldn't have wiped their normal sized relatives.

But you mentioned less than 500 animals in a whole state. More than 500 animals in Idaho died from allergic reactions to medications (anti-biotics and what not) and innoculations last year. So let's keep everything in perspective. I love wolves, great animals. It's sad people think it's okay to force them into extinction over a few sheep. But I wouldn't be happy about calling the rendering plant and paying 25 bucks to haul them off (btw that's where dog food comes from, the dead cattle is hauled off and boiled until it's a gold colored powder, this is meat and bone meal, yum yum, add some corn/sweet potato and bacon grease and animal fat and you got kibble!). I have no issues with people using dogs to protect their livestock...better than shooting everything with paws in the woods. Muttcharkas seem like they'd be good livestock guardians, their fearful nature means they sleep light in wait of the Boogie Man! Lol! I simply meant they're useless as real protection/police dogs...good junkyard guard dogs and good for protecting sheep.


----------



## David Ruby

Curtis McHail said:


> This is too good!!!!!!!!! Caucasian Ovcharka = Fear biting mastiff mutt.


And yet they were somehow used by the Soviet military. And no, I don't have Ovcharkas.



> That said: ALL wolves including the 150lbs Canis lupus arctos, are WEAK tempered, COWARDLY animals. BRAVE wolves are extinct...they died out when they decided to challenge Saber Tooth Cats, Dyer Wolves and Short-faced Bears over kills LMAO. If your 50 pound Australian Cattle Dog can't chase off a wolf he's worthless. Wolves don't fight, they are wild animals, they aren't big enough to be able to afford confrontation and risk injury. They don't have people to take them to the vet and feed them pellets while they nurse a broken leg or severe wound and raging infection. Grizzly Bear are 10 times more secure of themselves because of their mass and a 50lbs cattle dog can chase 90% of them off too!


You didn't watch much Discovery Channel growing up, did you?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6TRS9LukVU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Ryzqw6ZPE4

They're not Pit Bull Terriers, but they are not weak tempered, cowardly animals. They're pack animals that hunt for survival. They risk injury every time they go against large animals (like the Bison in the first video), they have been known to hunt Moose, and when hungry (like if they were in the middle of winter in Russia, the food supply ran out, and they were starving), they have been reported to do pretty daring things. So no, they aren't going to do stupid things, but as an actual pack they can take down some pretty big prey. They aren't likely to just go a few rounds with your Presa, but a hungry pack of them coming for a herd of sheep seems pretty formidable for an Ovcharka.



> In conclusion (LOL) you can have a pack of Ovmuttkas...I'll take a lawn chair from your backyard and do a "Dog Whisperer" style move and use it as a shield and walk right in your house. Can't do that with a well bred, well trained GSD or Malinois...they're not intimidated by deadly lawn chairs and threatening cars!


Let's see it.  Maybe you're right. I am not an Ovcharka person, but I doubt they are all that easy to run off.

-Cheers


----------



## Curtis McHail

No David, no Discovery Channel here but I DO have a MS in Biology from WKU 

The soviet military also uses the AK-47...I dunno about you, but I think the M-14 is better! Also since when has ANY military known what a good dog was? Our own military has crap dogs and the Soviets use mostly show line GSDs. If I said the Soviet Army uses outhouses would you turn your bathroom into a linen closet?

If you'll study that video of the cornered Bison you'll see a bunch of scared wolves standing around not doing much hoping a calf will run out or perhaps one of the older Bison will magically go into cardiac arrest at the sight of them! Wolves can bring down big game when they need to but they prefer nothing biggr than deer...even elk make them think twice.

Again: Wolves are weak tempered, cowardly animals. You'd jump a Bison with a sharp stick if you got hungry enough, that doesn't make you tough, it makes you desperate.


----------



## David Ruby

Curtis McHail said:


> No David, no Discovery Channel here but I DO have a MS in Biology from WKU
> 
> 
> 
> No Discovery Channel? You're missing out.  Do I have to admit your MS trumps my Discovery Channel? Rats!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The soviet military also uses the AK-47...I dunno about you, but I think the M-14 is better! Also since when has ANY military known what a good dog was? Our own military has crap dogs and the Soviets use mostly show line GSDs. If I said the Soviet Army uses outhouses would you turn your bathroom into a linen closet?
> 
> 
> 
> My only point is that they must have seen _something_ in the Ovcharka. I've also had a couple people with working experience around Mals & GSDs say that there were a few good COs that were pretty fierce. Not that they were the best thing since sliced bread, but enough for me to believe there is at least some potential in the dogs to be good working dogs. Not the heir apparent to the KNPV program or SWAT team dogs, but functional for what they were bred for.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you'll study that video of the cornered Bison you'll see a bunch of scared wolves standing around not doing much hoping a calf will run out or perhaps one of the older Bison will magically go into cardiac arrest at the sight of them! Wolves can bring down big game when they need to but they prefer nothing biggr than deer...even elk make them think twice.
> 
> Again: Wolves are weak tempered, cowardly animals.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That makes them pragmatic, not weak and cowardly.
> 
> I see your point, I really do. However under certain circumstances it is unfair to underestimate any animal even if they are confrontation-avoiders and easily run off under most situations. Those extreme circumstances are what a LGD is bred for, is it not?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You'd jump a Bison with a sharp stick if you got hungry enough, that doesn't make you tough, it makes you desperate.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yeah, but making it through it alive would be what made me tough. For me or the Bison, I suppose.
> 
> -Cheers
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


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## Daryl Ehret

Better have a pack of CO's to go with your flock of sheep, because I think I put it in pretty clear perspective. A single flock protector won't have a chance with a few or more wolves. And much of the time, they hunt as a group, and their cowardly temperament won't matter much.


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## Daryl Ehret

> Kathy Konen has *lost guard dogs* to wolves in the past, but nothing prepared the Dillon rancher for the killing of 120 buck sheep on their ranch last week.
> 
> The total included 82 confirmed kills and 40 carcasses that were classified as probable kills


http://www.mtstandard.com/articles/2009/08/28/area/hjjajbhchghbjc.txt


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## Hugo Forno

Curtis McHail said:


> This is too good!!!!!!!!! Caucasian Ovcharka = Fear biting mastiff mutt. If I had to get an "exotic" breed...I'd go with a Fila...and I'm not HUGE fans of them either. The only "exotic" to be worth it's weight in dog poo are American Bulldogs bred by the competent. But since they're American, they're not "exotic" enough for most bandwagon riders.
> 
> As far as North American Wolves, they aren't that big. Most of the wolves in the lower 48 ARE NOT Canis lupus aka not the subspecies of wolf that was originally found here. They are Canis lupus arctos, the arctic wolf, brought in from Alaska and Northern Canada. Somehow people think bringing a completely different, MASSIVE subspecies of wolf from another part of the world is conservation. This would be like us bringing in Kodiak Brown Bear to replace Grizzlies in the lower 48...stupid stupid stupid idea!
> 
> That said: ALL wolves including the 150lbs Canis lupus arctos, are WEAK tempered, COWARDLY animals. BRAVE wolves are extinct...they died out when they decided to challenge Saber Tooth Cats, Dyer Wolves and Short-faced Bears over kills LMAO. If your 50 pound Australian Cattle Dog can't chase off a wolf he's worthless. Wolves don't fight, they are wild animals, they aren't big enough to be able to afford confrontation and risk injury. They don't have people to take them to the vet and feed them pellets while they nurse a broken leg or severe wound and raging infection. Grizzly Bear are 10 times more secure of themselves because of their mass and a 50lbs cattle dog can chase 90% of them off too!
> 
> In conclusion (LOL) you can have a pack of Ovmuttkas...I'll take a lawn chair from your backyard and do a "Dog Whisperer" style move and use it as a shield and walk right in your house. Can't do that with a well bred, well trained GSD or Malinois...they're not intimidated by deadly lawn chairs and threatening cars!


You don't need the chair with a GSD or a mal. You just get into the property with a sleeve and the dog hangs from there and then, as you say, you walk around the house.

hugo

ps do you know something about ovcharkas?


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## Mike Howard

Curtis McHail said:


> No David, no Discovery Channel here but I DO have a MS in Biology from WKU
> 
> The soviet military also uses the AK-47...I dunno about you, but I think the M-14 is better! Also since when has ANY military known what a good dog was? Our own military has crap dogs and the Soviets use mostly show line GSDs. If I said the Soviet Army uses outhouses would you turn your bathroom into a linen closet?
> 
> If you'll study that video of the cornered Bison you'll see a bunch of scared wolves standing around not doing much hoping a calf will run out or perhaps one of the older Bison will magically go into cardiac arrest at the sight of them! Wolves can bring down big game when they need to but they prefer nothing biggr than deer...even elk make them think twice.
> 
> Again: Wolves are weak tempered, cowardly animals. You'd jump a Bison with a sharp stick if you got hungry enough, that doesn't make you tough, it makes you desperate.


Do you have a complex? 

Seriously, grow up. The stuff you spew is akin to an insecure 17-year-old. For someone with an 'MS' you sure do sound ignorant, and insecure.


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## Robin Van Hecke

Curtis McHail said:


> No David, no Discovery Channel here but I DO have a MS in Biology from WKU
> 
> The soviet military also uses the AK-47...I dunno about you, but I think the M-14 is better! Also since when has ANY military known what a good dog was? Our own military has crap dogs and the Soviets use mostly show line GSDs. If I said the Soviet Army uses outhouses would you turn your bathroom into a linen closet?
> 
> If you'll study that video of the cornered Bison you'll see a bunch of scared wolves standing around not doing much hoping a calf will run out or perhaps one of the older Bison will magically go into cardiac arrest at the sight of them! Wolves can bring down big game when they need to but they prefer nothing biggr than deer...even elk make them think twice.
> 
> Again: Wolves are weak tempered, cowardly animals. You'd jump a Bison with a sharp stick if you got hungry enough, that doesn't make you tough, it makes you desperate.


Juvenile comments, "weak tempered and cowardly" are terms only applicable to humans. Wolves are perfect to survive as a species in their environment.


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## Bob Scott

This post is about OCs, not wolves!
lets get back on track!


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## Ben Thompson

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gjXIoCIAVQI&NR=1
> 
> 
> 
> AWESOME.................not.


 
I don't know much about this but their temperment reminds me of the Fila brasileiro. Extremely dangerous and distrusting of all strangers.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Looks like Lee is back with a different name.


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## Ben Thompson

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Looks like Lee is back with a different name.


You talking to me? As in Bruce Lee?


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Curtis sounds vaguely like Lee Robinson a former poster child for the retarded. 

You can be bruce lee, but only if you g and beat up Kareem. Should be easy, he is old now.


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## Ben Thompson

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Curtis sounds vaguely like Lee Robinson a former poster child for the retarded.
> 
> You can be bruce lee, but only if you g and beat up Kareem. Should be easy, he is old now.


Bruce Lee is the only man to kill Chuck Norris you know.


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## Curtis McHail

Ben Thompson said:


> Bruce Lee is the only man to kill Chuck Norris you know.


LMAO Ben!!!! David I hear you brother! And to everybody, wolves are fine with me, I love them. I've spent a lot of time collecting ticks to be with them and their bastardized cousins (wolf hybrids, don't get me started on them!). I used the words "cowardly" to prove a point. People portray wolves as these fierce, in your face killing machines when if they were a dog they'd be the shaking, can't control their bowels fear biter chained up under the ASPCA with the red tag on the door. It doesn't pay to be fearless in the woods (unless you're a wolverine!). A dog with half decent nerve can chase off a wolf no problem. Daryl I agree with you though, 4 or 5 wolves over 80-100lbs are going to pester a lone dog into avoidance or pick it apart until it runs off or can't take anymore of what's coming. We need somebody who really uses livestock guardians' insight on how many dogs it'd take to protect a flock of a certain size. I think it also depends on the property, if you have a few sheep close to the house a couple of dogs barking gives you time to grab a gun and torch. If you have a massive sprawling ranch? Not so much. ALS sells less than lethal rounds for 12ga called "Rubber Rocket" rubber rounds...good out to 75 yards. A few of those (and some real rounds just in case) and a few dogs is a lot easier on the wild life...I'm sure most of us can agree to that?

Hugo, greeeaaaat comment, almost made me spill my coffee! But relax my friend! The Ovcharka has been around for a while, and I'm betting it'll be around a while longer. It has it's purpose. But I doubt we'll be seeing them in the back of police cruisers any time soon :grin: 

Daryl 120 sheep in a week!?! Geeze, now that WOULD hurt! Also hard to imagine a single pack killing 120 animals a year much less a few days though. I'd have to see that with these big brown eyes or via video. I'll check out the link though and FYI, if they did that? Shoot them, there's something off about that.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Chuck was called to another dimension to RHK a black hole into submission. Lee had no idea, so he claimed to have won the fight.

Chuck went back and killed Lee for his arrogance. LOL


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## Curtis McHail

Btw read the link...if they refuse to put up electric fencing or put some dogs out there of course she's going to lose sheep. She can come out my way and lose sheep to coyotes, black bear, and dogs just as quick if she doesn't take SOME precautions.


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## Daryl Ehret

There's no incentive. Why bother putting your dogs at risk when the Livestock Loss Reduction and Mitigation Program (LLRMP) will reimburse for your loss? It's not unusual for a single wolf to kill 30 sheep in a single day. Wolves are opportunists, and will kill "for fun".

Can you imagine the backlash for videoing an occurance, for not having intervened to attempt to prevent it from happening? A "expert" decides if the killings are confirmed wolf kills or not. It's funny to me that the first thought of wolf admirers is denial that it could happen.

During elk calving, the wolves will wait for the calves to be birthed, and they often don't get to live beyond 20 minutes. My father who lives on the edge of Yellowstone, told me of one occasion watching them from overhead as they picked off more than a dozen calves before lunchtime.

Back to the livestock guardians, I recently read a study where sheep supposedly fared as well without the use of a guardian dog. That they would be tougher to face a threat, because they haven't been conditioned "act like sheep" to the guardian dog.


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## Curtis McHail

Daryl Ehret said:


> There's no incentive. Why bother putting your dogs at risk when the Livestock Loss Reduction and Mitigation Program (LLRMP) will reimburse for your loss? It's not unusual for a single wolf to kill 30 sheep in a single day. Wolves are opportunists, and will kill "for fun".
> 
> Can you imagine the backlash for videoing an occurance, for not having intervened to attempt to prevent it from happening? A "expert" decides if the killings are confirmed wolf kills or not. It's funny to me that the first thought of wolf admirers is denial that it could happen.
> 
> During elk calving, the wolves will wait for the calves to be birthed, and they often don't get to live beyond 20 minutes. My father who lives on the edge of Yellowstone, told me of one occasion watching them from overhead as they picked off more than a dozen calves before lunchtime.
> 
> Back to the livestock guardians, I recently read a study where sheep supposedly fared as well without the use of a guardian dog. That they would be tougher to face a threat, because they haven't been conditioned "act like sheep" to the guardian dog.


Interesting Daryl...I believe it's possible but that is a lot of animals. Wolf admirers? Should we shoot them all (again) or send them back to the frozen north until we decide to build houses up there too?


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## Daryl Ehret

Sounds like the talk of a wolf admirer to me. What makes you think I'm against 'em? I'd just like people to open their eyes to the reality of the impact they have.

For people that have to live with them, and are affected by them, they're no 'fairy-tale-wonder-noble-majestic-creature' when they affect your livlihood as a rancher, bountiful game as a hunter, and it would get pretty personal for a lot of people to have their pet eaten.

But me? I don't want to either save them or condemn them. Whichever road they go down, I'll watch and learn from their journey, as people will tend to believe whatever they want to believe, instead of objectively shaping their personal opinions with experience and an open mind.

Wherever the fringes between wolf's ecosystem and society's boundaries are drawn, there will always be contention. The differences in our nature won't allow a peaceful coexistance, when one side eventually spills over into the other. They aren't drawn to humans like dogs are, but humans seem irresistably drawn to wolves.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

I know a few people that need to be drawn to wolves.


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## Maria Janota

Hakim 9 year old CAO;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LjVE9ReE3p0


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## James Degale

He'll have a few bruises tomorrow!


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## Maria Janota

Yes, he had some#-o But the dog was fine


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## Kyle Sprag

Maria Janota said:


> Hakim 9 year old CAO;
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LjVE9ReE3p0


 
so in 9 years you managed to get a dog to bite a sleeve on a Back Tie? [-o<


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## Maria Janota

Ofcourse, he`ll start working in prey drive when when he is 188-[ (as an adult here=


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## Bob Scott

Without seeing more I liked the fact that the dog wasn't interested in the jacket after it "won".


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## Maria Janota

What`s more this movie shows that there is no handler agression, no impulsive biting the hendler (that is quite common in highly driven IPO dogs as far as I am concerned). The dogs is directed to the intruder/attacker. And the dog is controlable.
This dog is not in training, he was trained years ago, but with a lot of mistakes. Still he likes to fight 
Livestock herders are rather soft dogs, if one wants to build them he should allow a lot otherwise the dog will grow too submisive to the handler.
But they are trainable  As somenone wrote here - a few trainers has experience with them and it is not easy to find one.
And the truth is that they get worse every year, bread as a show dogs, insecure, huge and with no instincts and no bite (I happen to have two such females). Looking dangerouse and barking in the garden 24/7. 
It takes a lot of effort to buy a good one, but it still is possible.

Here is nice CO from Ukraine: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=msyHC6f4rK0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XIlbDcTcFx0&feature=related

A little biting of CO and CAO in Hungary
http://www.dog-web.info/Dogs/Igor/Igor.wmv
http://www.dog-web.info/Dogs/Nathan/Nathan.wmv


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## James Lechernich

Not to hijack the thread but are there any good books(English language) on COs/CAOs out there?


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## Maria Janota

Maria Janota said:


> Livestock herders


I ment guardians I read too much about dutchies:-s

There is a book in english I don`t know if it`s good: http://www.amazon.com/Livestock-Protection-Dogs-Selection-Training/dp/1577790626

I know one that is not bad but in russian;-) Владимир Александрович Калинин Татьяна Михайловна Иванова Лидия Васильевна Морозова 
*"Отечественные породы служебных собак азиатского происхождения*"

it would be something like "National working breeds of asian origin" Kalinin, Ivanova, Morozova.


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## Christopher Fox

There are some older topics in this thread, but it is on the first page of threads, so fair game I figure. The conversation has covered CO's as LGDs and gaurd/protection dogs. I don't know much about protection work, so I'll sit back and watch the videos and read the others thoughts ranging from 'shitters' to 'not bad'.

Obviously, anyone that doesn't think that the guy and the breeder in the NatGeo video are idoiots is an idiot themselves. That being said, I think there is a growing and legitimate need for a dog like this in the lower 48, more specifically, the western ranching states.

The genie came out of the bottle in 1995 and it ain't going back in unless humans began an extermination program. I don't expect anyone on the net to accept at face value and 100% fact the things I have seen through the windshield of that snowcat in my avatar in the middle of the night and wee hours of dawn on a portion of the Continental Divide that is a land bridge for animal migrations at 12,500' - 13,000', so how about a link to an incident I knew of at the time.

http://www.fws.gov/mountain-prairie/PRESSREL/04-43.htm

This was 5.5 years ago and about 35-40 minutes west of the Metro Denver area. And make no mistake, this is far from the only wolf in Colorado then or now.

Wolves are back, not just in Wyoming and Montantana, but in the Rocky Mountains.

The point being, there is a *new* threat to livestock in the Rocky Mountain states that has not been here for decades. Give it 20 years and the entire Rocky Mountains from Canada to Mexico will have a continuous population.

I think there is a need for a dog like this and no, not as a 'wolf killer'. As a dog that does 99.99% of its job by barking and intimidating away threats by size and agressive display (wolf sees dog and realizes he/she will have to fight just for an opportunity to attack prey - wild animals don't like to do this too risky even if you win), but an LGD is not an LGD if it is unwilling to unleash an immediate and violent attack, intending to kill, on any predator that is within striking range of the livestock. Zero tolerance policy.

Wolves are big. The dog has to be to. Get two of them.


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## Hugo Forno

Bob Scott said:


> Without seeing more I liked the fact that the dog wasn't interested in the jacket after it "won".


Because he is not a high prey drive dog.

hugo


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## Hugo Forno

Nice video of that CAO. Perhaps you have already whatched these vids of Varlay, a CO from Ucrania; here they go anyway:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=msyHC6f4rK0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XIlbDcTcFx0

Remember that Ovtcharkas are not PPwork dogs.

hugo


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## Maria Janota

I like Varlay, so I linked it on the preaviouse page 

About PPD - depends on a dog, definition and training. Decent dog will make a good personal guardian if trained properly (not to be given to the fresh handler).
There are working trials (with protection) for CO and CAO in Russia and there is working class in dog shows. Also the standart includes active defense reaction.

Central asian wolf weights 40-45 kg. It is smaller then european or american.
I`ve heard aboute 2 CO`s that survived the wolf (in pair), but I know about one leashed that didn`t. For wolves in Poland a dog is an easy pray. Sometimes wolves literally hunt dogs in the winter or in the spring.

I wouldn`t look for a working LGD in show lines, there are no guarantees it will have instincts you need. I also don`t know CO or CAO working with livestock, but there were some research in Norway over great pyrenees:
http://www.greatpyrenees.com/lgd_files/2-6_hansen.pdf
and more:
http://www.kirj.ee/public/Ecology/2009/issue_3/ecol-2009-3-216-224.pdf
http://www.canids.org/occasionalpapers/livestockguardingdog.pdf

http://www.lgd.org/library.htm

The point is one has to pick a right puppy and train it right way :-\":mrgreen:

I don`t think I would risk having CO with no fence.

And there is one more option: http://www.icelandicsheepworld.com/guarddonkeys.htm :mrgreen:


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## Joby Becker

A while back I saw a little group of russian vids on youtube. The one with the head/face bites. I give credit to that decoy who took the face bites from that rottweiler LOL...

There was one little clip of a CO that was very impressive. It was a decent send on a decoy in a suit.

The dog hit the guy in the midsection and "thrashed". It was pretty impressive. The freaking dog actually picked the decoy up off the ground and bodyslammed him. I have never seen a dog do this. 

anyone see this vid?


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## chris haynie

no i didn't but i'd like to see the head bites and the CO body slamming just for kicks. did they wear a helmet? where they just messing around or did actually have the dog targeting the head? can you find and post a link?
thanks,
chris


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## Joby Becker

they were actually targeting the head and face. Looked Like a hockey mask or something with some type of jute bite surface. on the runaways the dog grabbed the guy by the back of the head. It was a freaking rottweiler too...LOL I'll look now.


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## David Ruby

Joby Becker said:


> A while back I saw a little group of russian vids on youtube. The one with the head/face bites. I give credit to that decoy who took the face bites from that rottweiler LOL...
> 
> There was one little clip of a CO that was very impressive. It was a decent send on a decoy in a suit.
> 
> The dog hit the guy in the midsection and "thrashed". It was pretty impressive. The freaking dog actually picked the decoy up off the ground and bodyslammed him. I have never seen a dog do this.
> 
> anyone see this vid?


I've seen that. It's both impressive and a bit chilling to see face bites and somebody getting taken down by the back of their head. In an actual encounter, that would be very ugly.

I don't remember the CO so much, vaguely. I'd be interested to see the Ovcharka pick up and then bodyslam the guy. That I do not recall. I do remember, if I'm thinking of the same clip, the dogs taking the agitator down from a tree that was kind of amusing. It was a pretty interesting video.

-Cheers


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## Jason Hammel

Yea I saw it but I thought the jute mask vid was a PC or CC or a pit on sammy sosa steroids looked like one of the dogs that chased the Hulk through the redwoods.


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