# How do you teach a fast down in motion?



## angelo sintubin (Jul 21, 2013)

Any tips or techniques are welcome.:smile:


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Only reward fast downs. Not being silly, genuinely.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Start with a accordion/ fold back stationary down rather then a flop forward down. Imprint the idea that down means go backwards will go a long way in doing the down out of motion


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## angelo sintubin (Jul 21, 2013)

Matt Vandart said:


> Only reward fast downs. Not being silly, genuinely.


I did that too. But than I have a problem with to much drive, so his elbows hoover a little above the ground. Because of the fast mark and reward.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Matt Vandart said:


> Only reward fast downs. Not being silly, genuinely.


Michael Ellis disagrees with that theory 
http://leerburg.com/flix/player2.php/513


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## angelo sintubin (Jul 21, 2013)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Start with a accordion/ fold back stationary down rather then a flop forward down. Imprint the idea that down means go backwards will go a long way in doing the down out of motion


The fold back down is not a problem but it isnt fast enough. I would like it to be faster.


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## Ted Summers (May 14, 2012)

I don't teach or worry about speed. My guys will down in the house and sort of flop over and not accordion back. You work them in drive? They drop fast enough that it makes a 'thud' when they hit the ground. 

Rather than focusing on speed focus on rapid changes. The dog assumes it's getting a tug after the release. I focused on position changes on their place pad (helps with accordion down too) and released from the pad. I also have a little PVC pipe 'gate' I built for position changes in grass. Multiple position changes, in random order, releasing on random numbers. "2 changes, reward, reset. 3 changes, reward, reset. 1 change, reward, reset. 5 changes, reward reset. Free" That whole process takes 45 seconds. I get them into the mindset of 'being on their toes' all the time. 

Specifically the in motion part. I start with focused heel take 4-5 steps command and stop but keep your feet moving in place, 2 steps when they perform, reward asap. Build this to the point where you're moving in slow motion (matrix?) heeling then command and allow them to perform, reward. With my mali it helped me when I did the position changes and tugged for 4-5 minutes to bring him up in drive and burn off some aggravation. The big deal is getting them to contextualize the command with motion. Another reason I never teach "stay." I say sit, you sit till I release you.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

don't know what you are doing now that works or doesn't work. that would always help when you ask for help

Ted's suggestions are great

plus, you might want to try an indirect approach which can pay off when you go for a faster response.
- surprise your dog more often (without giving a command) to force it to pay attention better when it is OUT of drive
- this will often pay off when you DO give a command...i have always felt the more the dog is focused, the quicker it will respond, and it will then carry over even when there is no eye contact

shifting the dog into a higher drive gear will not always address the problem and rarely makes a dog respond quicker when it's not hyped or "in drive"; whatever you want to call a more "motivated" state of mind


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## angelo sintubin (Jul 21, 2013)

rick smith said:


> don't know what you are doing now that works or doesn't work. that would always help when you ask for help


When I do his position on place he does them fast. From down to stay, stand to down, sit to down, no problem. When he is in drive. Like playing tug and asking to down, he goes fast down, but holds tension, so one elbow is always 1 cm from the ground, this is alsow the case in protection work.

When a do a down in the heeling, he goes medium fast down, but trampels a little when going down, he does not crawl forwards, when he is down.
But does not drop in a down. 

The sit and stand is mutch better.


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## angelo sintubin (Jul 21, 2013)

Ted Summers said:


> I don't teach or worry about speed. My guys will down in the house and sort of flop over and not accordion back. You work them in drive? They drop fast enough that it makes a 'thud' when they hit the ground.
> 
> Rather than focusing on speed focus on rapid changes. The dog assumes it's getting a tug after the release. I focused on position changes on their place pad (helps with accordion down too) and released from the pad. I also have a little PVC pipe 'gate' I built for position changes in grass. Multiple position changes, in random order, releasing on random numbers. "2 changes, reward, reset. 3 changes, reward, reset. 1 change, reward, reset. 5 changes, reward reset. Free" That whole process takes 45 seconds. I get them into the mindset of 'being on their toes' all the time.
> 
> Specifically the in motion part. I start with focused heel take 4-5 steps command and stop but keep your feet moving in place, 2 steps when they perform, reward asap. Build this to the point where you're moving in slow motion (matrix?) heeling then command and allow them to perform, reward. With my mali it helped me when I did the position changes and tugged for 4-5 minutes to bring him up in drive and burn off some aggravation. The big deal is getting them to contextualize the command with motion. Another reason I never teach "stay." I say sit, you sit till I release you.


Thanks, I will keep your techniques in mind and give it a try.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

re: 
"When I do his position on place he does them fast. From down to stay, stand to down, sit to down, no problem. When he is in drive. Like playing tug and asking to down, he goes fast down, but holds tension, so one elbow is always 1 cm from the ground, this is alsow the case in protection work.

When a do a down in the heeling, he goes medium fast down, but trampels a little when going down, he does not crawl forwards, when he is down.
But does not drop in a down."

maybe it's a language problem, but you are mostly describing the dog, not what YOU are doing

-example:
since you say he will drop quickly while you are playing tug ....
so, why not also "play tug" and keep him in drive when you are heeling him ? 

if i am hearing correctly you are saying the problem is that your dog only responds quickly when it is in drive (and expecting commands)
..changing speeds and sudden (unexpected) turns when heeling should help if that is the way you are going to train, because it will have more effect on influencing drive


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## angelo sintubin (Jul 21, 2013)

rick smith said:


> re:
> 
> if i am hearing correctly you are saying the problem is that your dog only responds quickly when it is in drive (and expecting commands)
> ..changing speeds and sudden (unexpected) turns when heeling should help if that is the way you are going to train, because it will have more effect on influencing drive


 Yesterdays training I did the down in high drive while playing tug with him, then he drops down fast. But if I take him out of playing tug directly in heeling, also in highdrive, he doesnt drop so fast, he does like a sit down. 
But I want him to bent trough his front paws. Do you understand? But in de tug game he does this.
I think its because of the heeling patern, that he is conditioned to look always up, so he does his down while looking up, so the end result is a sit down. Do this makes any sense? :razz:


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

i understand
when you are doing a down and he is in front of you, try getting his head up high, similar to the heel position, and then down him. don't reward if he doesn't drop the way you want him to.
- i also didn't hear if you can drop him in motion when he is NOT heeling next to you
- that might help the down when in motion when he is on the hip

but you still didn't say what you are training for an it is starting to look like you are very interested in style versus fast response 

overall, break your training rep into smaller segments and don't go for the total package in one rep....then add more reps to the session sets
--make your training a chain of successful reps, not a pass/fail SET

can't explain more without seeing you and the dog


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## Mircea Hemu-Ha (Nov 24, 2009)

Surprise-guide him with the toy, ask for a down and put the toy where his head should be, down. Don't wait for him, show him you are faster than he is, he should become quicker. If you need to, heel slower at first, to be able to get the toy down with one hand and still be apparently moving.

Also, reward him as soon as he reaches the position enough times; if you ask for a down and keep going, then work on the recall, etc., he may start being slow again, no reason to be fast.


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## angelo sintubin (Jul 21, 2013)

I am training for ipo. Now i am training for his bh test upcoming november.
Now it isnt so important , but i want him to do it right from te start and not getting used to go slow or a wrong form. It has to be almost perfect.
I like the challenge, and he too.
He can do a fast down in motion, but when he is next to me, he is to mutch thinking a heeling.
A sit goes fast, a stand goes fast, but the down is difficult, because he wants to look up, so hiss ass goez first down, and I dont want that form.


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## angelo sintubin (Jul 21, 2013)

Mircea Hemu-Ha said:


> Surprise-guide him with the toy, ask for a down and put the toy where his head should be, down. Don't wait for him, show him you are faster than he is, he should become quicker. If you need to, heel slower at first, to be able to get the toy down with one hand and still be apparently moving.
> 
> Also, reward him as soon as he reaches the position enough times; if you ask for a down and keep going, then work on the recall, etc., he may start being slow again, no reason to be fast.


I do not always reward immediately, so you are wright in that way.

I will begin to split everything up.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

you can also try and quickly lure him to the down while you are in motion, but of course don't forget to start fading the lure as he starts to get it the way you want it


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## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

angelo sintubin said:


> I did that too. But than I have a problem with to much drive, so his elbows hoover a little above the ground. Because of the fast mark and reward.


I use low electric on constant until the motion is complete

Also put a long line on a flat collar, after the command as you continue down the field, put tension on the line while re-commanding or correcting as needed, and after he's fighting you to stay in the down and you're pulling hard enough that he can barely stay down, release the line... The dog will snap back into the down, and mark that


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

angelo sintubin said:


> I am training for ipo. Now i am training for his bh test upcoming november.
> Now it isnt so important , but i want him to do it right from te start and not getting used to go slow or a wrong form. It has to be almost perfect.
> I like the challenge, and he too.
> He can do a fast down in motion, but when he is next to me, he is to mutch thinking a heeling.
> A sit goes fast, a stand goes fast, but the down is difficult, because he wants to look up, so hiss ass goez first down, and I dont want that form.


One little note: The IPO BH "motion" exercises are no longer in motion You're supposed to hesitate/stop until your dog sits or in case of the down sits and then downs before proceeding.

I'd train a regular motion exercise and take what ever points deduction there is for not hesitating instead of teaching two 
different exercises.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I don't get the new "hesitate/stop". That seems to be more dumbing down of the requirements. 
When I first started in obedience we woul heel the dog then slap it across the shoulders timed with a "down" command.
I prefer the marker method but if needed I would go back to the tool box. 
If this dog is downing fast when NOT heeling then the dog needs to learn the reward or correction are open options for the same command When heeling. It doesn't seem the heeling is done in drive in order to earn reward.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Reward low


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> I don't get the new "hesitate/stop". That seems to be more dumbing down of the requirements.
> .


I totally agree.
I don't understand insisting you say here/fuss or Here/heel on the call out. Here means come to my front and fuss means come to my side. The only reason dogs come to heel position is that is the last thing they hear. You could just as well say banana/fuss or Obamacare Fuss


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

re: "banana/fuss or Obamacare Fuss....etc"
that made me chuckle...

when i first started training with japanese customers i would use the word "hey" to get the dog's attention rather than its name, since many had been DEconditioned to NOT respond to their name from owners who constantly used their dog's name but never required the dog to pay attention, etc etc
..... most of the time that would make the customer laff
- it was months before i finally figured out why
- "hey" is a slang term in japanese for fart


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## angelo sintubin (Jul 21, 2013)

Today i made a couple video's of a training.
This will show it better.


Down in heeling, this is a good one. But not yet fast enough.
http://youtu.be/ySHys6gUaww


Sit in heeling.
http://youtu.be/rrT9A1Hw0eQ

Stand in heeling. 
http://youtu.be/c-vFfu06e3g

Down out of playing.
http://youtu.be/UFkYe_0Psew


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## Max Orsi (May 22, 2008)

Nice work Angelo!!


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