# High Drive = Hard to control.



## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

So, I have a question. And it's something that has baffled me from day one.

Mind I have been training for enough time now...so this is not a newbie question.

First, when I was first starting I was told you want a dog with high drive. I asked what's drive, and why do I want it?...Basically. I was told I want a dog with drive for it's resources, toys and food...Blah, blah. The more the dog values these things. The more I can use them to teach the dog. So I learned, I got the idea, I put that into practise. Then I noticed people cursing the drive. The dog had too much and was hard to control. the first thing that came to my mind was.... If the dog has a lot of drive, by managing the access to the resources...should he not be easier to control? 

Also, I see people talk about using higher level of complusion. Siting that high drive dogs are impossible to train without it. I get how they got there in thier minds. And I came to that conclusion before also. But Intellectually it does not really make sense. If a dog is willing to work through a high level shock, or hard ass bang on a collar and not stop what it is doing. Should that not tell us something about how powerful the motivator is. That's where the real power lies in the motivator, not the deterent.

So, when does the rule change? What I mean is. Why do we look for drive so we control the animal, then later we blame it for our control problems. I am not einstein but, maybe, and just maybe. The problem is not the drive? maybe it's that the people saying this are deficient in thier ability to limit access to the reward?

I watched a Bart B. Video...and he said something so simple it knocked me back. He said, people reward, all the time, behaviors they do not like. And he meant literally marking behaviors and giving rewards. not by accident, but intentional rewards.

Just thought.


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## Aaron Myracle (May 2, 2011)

It's the folly of human nature, I suppose.

You see people do it even apart from the drive issues. I've watched multiple newcomers to the club reward their dogs for having zero manners when taking treats, for example. They offer the dog a treat, and the dog comes in and takes half a finger with the treat. 

Then the owners, not wanting to sacrifice a digit to the dog start a pattern that the dog thinks is a really fun game. When the dog comes in to take the reward, the owner does one of two things- they snatch their hand back [making the dog pursue the treat, which is a blast for the dog], or they practically toss the food into the dog's mouth. Either way, they reinforce the snappy, pushy dog who is biting fingers and generally being obnoxious about taking food. And then they complain and demand to be allowed to use a ball/tug to train a dog who doesn't have enough interest in the ball/tug, because they're tired of the dog doing what they've trained it to do.

I think the lightbulb went on for me re: drive and control, when I started teaching the blind search.
Started out with a dog who was insane to get at the helper [to the extent of making half-hearted redirects onto me when I restrained her], and more or less fit the general description of the "uncontrollable high-drive dog" in that context.

The first day we worked on the blind search, she was spinning, re-directing, and generally being an obnoxious spaz as we approached the empty blind, trying to get to the blind she KNEW the helper was in.

After the third repetition that day, the lightbulb went off in her head, and she realized that the rules of the game are go around the empty blind, THEN go bite the helper. She quit fighting me, and began dragging me to the empty blind.

Did her drive change?

Nope. Her understanding of what behavior is required to SATISFY her drive did.
Funny, we gained control in protection with minimal correction as soon as that lightbulb went off.
I wish she hadn't had so many grip issues to work on that delayed starting blind work, because that one lesson was a total game changer in her training, with ZERO conflict.


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## Jackie Lockard (Oct 20, 2009)

Aaron Myracle said:


> Her understanding of what behavior is required to SATISFY her drive did.


+1

Anyone complaining about their "out of control" dogs (walking on a leash, taking food, protection, heeling, tracking, chasing squirrels) are the very people who have failed to correctly control the dog's drives.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Aaronn said: "Did her drive change?

Nope. Her understanding of what behavior is required to SATISFY her drive did."

I really like that. I'll use it i'm sure. A year from now I'll probably take credit for being the origin of that statement. For now though, that is really well said. 

DFrost


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## Adam Swilling (Feb 12, 2009)

This is an interesting topic, and one that I've discussed with people on several occasions. I think it's a multifaceted answer. One, I'm a firm believer that one can have a dog that has too much drive for one's ability as a trainer. I do see that quite often. A person gets their first dog for training in whatever and that person progresses as a trainer and wants a dog with "more". And they often bite off more than they can chew on the next one. In that instance, James, I think you're right. It's not the dog, it's the ability of the trainer. Not that they're necessarily a bad trainer, they're just not ready for that level of drive in a dog. 

Two, marking and rewarding is not as simple as most think. If it was everyone would have zero trouble training this way. And I agree. Often people mark a behaviour without understanding what they are actually marking/rewarding. Aaron, I think your example with the treat is a good one. One has to mark the EXACT behaviour they want. It can't be , "Well, they did what I wanted but they followed it up with lunging for the reward". Only the EXACT DESIRED BEHAVIOUR should be marked. Anything less is unacceptable, or should be. 

I do believe that the drive should be used as an avenue to the trainer to help "guide" the dog to a desired behaviour. The dutchie I'm training now loves the bite work. That desire to bite the decoy is something I love about her. However, it made her a little hard to control at times. Once she figured out that the only way she got the bite was to do as I wanted the switch flipped. She understood that the path to what she wanted comes through me and by doing what I want. Then she gets what she wants. 

Drive, just like a pinch collar, can be used a training tool. Open minded experience is what teaches you how to use it.


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Aaron Myracle said:


> It's the folly of human nature, I suppose.
> 
> You see people do it even apart from the drive issues. I've watched multiple newcomers to the club reward their dogs for having zero manners when taking treats, for example. They offer the dog a treat, and the dog comes in and takes half a finger with the treat.
> 
> ...


Aaron this is as good an explanation for it as I have seen.


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## Marta Wajngarten (Jul 30, 2006)

If high drive in general could only be controlled with more compulsion, you wouldn't see all the positive only people who use no compulsion to train their dogs always on the look out for high drive dogs, even crossing terriers and BCs to get all the high drive they can in a small package, and still succeed to train their dogs by harnessing that drive not fighting against it.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Aaron,

That is an excellent point. Actually I think all of you are making some really great points. I guess without the words to express it. That's the conclusion I am coming to. That it's not the dog...especially if it's a high drive dog without any baggage.

It's not the method that's faulty it's the application. And Myself and others I see fall easily into the trap if it's not working it must be the method or the dog. Which is not always the case. And the default response....punishment. At least for me. I do this less often now, but I get fustrated and do something that works in the short term. But I pay for later. 

I think the accpeting that I do not have all the answers, and some of my answers are not going to get me what I want has been the biggest thing that has helped me in my training.


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## Jackie Lockard (Oct 20, 2009)

James Downey said:


> It's not the method that's faulty it's the application. And Myself and others I see fall easily into the trap if it's not working it must be the method or the dog. Which is not always the case. And the default response....punishment. At least for me. I do this less often now, but I get fustrated and do something that works in the short term. But I pay for later.


Me too, unfortunately. One thing I've heard recently was about how the better you can control reinforcement (that would be what the dog is driven by), the LESS you have to punish (correct). One of the truest statements I've ever heard in dog training, and very thought provoking, for me at least.

I used to say that if you expect to do protection work without any corrections you've either got a crappy dog (all prey), or you're going to get someone (yourself or decoy) seriously hurt. The more I wonder about the above statement the more I wonder if what I said is actually incorrect. Would it be possible to train, to a high level, a 'serious' dog that wanted to bite because it LIKED to bite people, using no pinch collar? If I was really good at controlling the reinforcement, it sounds plausible.

One other thing I read here on WDF, is that someone was saying in regards to prepping to trial I think, that if someone else was going to go on a (training) field and correct their dog three times, that he was going to reward his dog three times instead. I think it gets tricky here. In order to train like this you already have to have such a high, reliable level of training that you don't fall back on those corrections, that even if you do a whole bh heeling routine, you still "beat" the dog's mistake so you're rewarding the routine without mistakes. I think it takes a high level, of application AND dedication.


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## Aaron Myracle (May 2, 2011)

Well, that's dogs though, isn't it?

At least for me, when I'm going it "right", I learn more about myself than I do anything else.
My dog has a knack for exposing every single character flaw of mine.

And if I want to make any sort of progress, I have to fix my own flaws, because the dog is a devious little shit, and she will find a way to exploit it and use it against me.

I spent a good long time being absolutely manipulated by my dog because she figured out that if she could frustrate me enough, I'd put her away to avoid doing something rash out of anger. 

AHA! says the dog, if I play dumb and act like I don't know sitz from platz, he'll get pissed off. Piss him off and I don't have to do that thing I don't want to do today. 
It's absurd how long it took me to realize what the dog was doing.

A lot of us tend to fall back on compulsion when we're stuck, or when we're pissed, whether or not it is called for. And I think some dogs figure that out. A hard dog who can handle the correction might just be willing to let you correct him and use force, rather than have to figure out what the heck you want when you're being confusing and inconsistent. "Screw it, I can't win anyway, so why bother?"

If you've got a dog that is even half-way decent, I think the biggest thing to hold in your head is that it's not the dog. Whatever is going wrong, it isn't the dog. Somewhere, you screwed something up. It's not the dog, it's you. Back up and figure out where you went wrong.

Seems like I've spent the last year fixing all the things I did wrong in the two previous years.
Boy this dog is schooling me.


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## Adam Swilling (Feb 12, 2009)

Aaron Myracle said:


> If you've got a dog that is even half-way decent, I think the biggest thing to hold in your head is that it's not the dog. Whatever is going wrong, it isn't the dog. Somewhere, you screwed something up. It's not the dog, it's you. Back up and figure out where you went wrong.QUOTE]
> 
> BINGO!! IMO, the first key to understanding how to train and to understanding dogs period is to truly get that it's not the dog. Mistakes in training or trials are not made by dogs, they're made by humans. That burden falls on us. The trainer either didn't find a way to train an exercise in a way the dog understands, didn't proof enough, something. I've also been guilty of falling back on compulsion/ hard corrections in the past, which caused me to analyze my own base of knowledge. When you accept the fact that you don't know it all, as James said, I think is when you get to the crossroads of dog training: you're either going to learn from your mistakes and seek to expand your knowledge or quit altogether. Unfortunately, there are those that never accept the fact that they know little to nothing and keep plodding down the same path of ignorance.


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## hillel schwartzman (Nov 9, 2008)

The higher the drive the more we can manipulated the desired behaviors...Personally I like crack whore drives myself


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

hillel schwartzman said:


> The higher the drive the more we can manipulated the desired behaviors...Personally I like crack whore drives myself


you like the dog stumbling around muttering to itself on the corner?


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## Adam Swilling (Feb 12, 2009)

hillel schwartzman said:


> The higher the drive the more we can manipulated the desired behaviors...Personally I like crack whore drives myself


Now you're talking! That's the kind of drive I'm looking for. Had trouble finding it. Maybe I'm looking in the wrong places. But I think your previous post is dead on: The higher the drive the more it can be manipulated to get what you want.


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## Jackie Lockard (Oct 20, 2009)

More? Or just easier?


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

I want the highest drive I can possibly get. I literally want to see the dog bouncing and binging .... there is a catch to that. The dog has to be stable!! If the dog is not naturally stable there will be problems that i dont want to deal with. There in lies the catch 22 its tough to get that kind of drive AND clarity at the same time. But when you do WOOOHOOOO oh yeah !!!


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

I think most people that can train a dog, would rather err on the side of too high than too low....you can cap or use lower value...you cannot use something that is not there...


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## hillel schwartzman (Nov 9, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> you like the dog stumbling around muttering to itself on the corner?


 No a crack whore will do what ever you want for her crack...Imagine all the Possibilities....Sweet hah.....


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Brian Anderson said:


> I want the highest drive I can possibly get. I literally want to see the dog bouncing and binging .... there is a catch to that. The dog has to be stable!! If the dog is not naturally stable there will be problems that i dont want to deal with. There in lies the catch 22 its tough to get that kind of drive AND clarity at the same time. But when you do WOOOHOOOO oh yeah !!!


Starting my second and third dog now and being a better trainer. I think that a lot of my clarity issues with my first dog were handler issues. The boy I have now, has more drive...but way more clear in the head. I think, it's because I laid the boundries out I wanted much sooner with way more consistency. Not saying there are not dogs whom are naturally more hectic. But I did assume with my first dog that her clarity was genetic. Looking back now I can clearly see where I have could done a much better job.


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

hillel schwartzman said:


> No a crack whore will do what ever you want for her crack...Imagine all the Possibilities....Sweet hah.....


UMMM speaking of clarity :razz: HAHAHA !!!!!


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

James Downey said:


> Starting my second and third dog now and being a better trainer. I think that a lot of my clarity issues with my first dog were handler issues. The boy I have now, has more drive...but way more clear in the head. I think, it's because I laid the boundries out I wanted much sooner with way more consistency. Not saying there are not dogs whom are naturally more hectic. But I did assume with my first dog that her clarity was genetic. Looking back now I can clearly see where I have could done a much better job.


James a moniker I have come to really believe in with dogs especially is: " Sometimes knowing what not to do is more important than knowing what to do"


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Brian Anderson said:


> James a moniker I have come to really believe in with dogs especially is: " Sometimes knowing what not to do is more important than knowing what to do"


 
Amen.

It's kind of depressing. For me, I do not see many females like her. I wish I could start all over again


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Brian Anderson said:


> I want the highest drive I can possibly get. I literally want to see the dog bouncing and binging .... there is a catch to that. The dog has to be stable!! If the dog is not naturally stable there will be problems that i dont want to deal with. There in lies the catch 22 its tough to get that kind of drive AND clarity at the same time. But when you do WOOOHOOOO oh yeah !!!


Best answer! All the drive in the world means nothing if the dog isn't clear headed/stable.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

what you posted makes a lot of sense Aaron, but i can't agree with this part :

re: "I spent a good long time being absolutely manipulated by my dog because she figured out that if she could frustrate me enough, I'd put her away to avoid doing something rash out of anger. 
--- AHA! says the dog, if I play dumb and act like I don't know sitz from platz, he'll get pissed off. Piss him off and I don't have to do that thing I don't want to do today. 
It's absurd how long it took me to realize what the dog was doing."

i just don't feel a dog is capable of thinking ahead or planning a strategy to get their way later on down the road. not enuff grey matter imo 

but in terms of playing mind games, i do believe a good trainer has to get into a dog's head and know what they are gonna do it b4 they do it, and to me that's a big part of reading dogs. kinda hard to put it in writing, but i think if mess with their mind and stay ahead of them, and pair that with good timing, you pretty much have it down

but since i'm not very good at it, maybe my theory is flawed and i'm over-thinking it


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## Selena van Leeuwen (Mar 29, 2006)

I reallydon't like a bouncing dog, they usually are to busy wih being a spaz rather than pay attetion to what i'm telling them. I prefer the calm , stable one ;-)


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## Aaron Myracle (May 2, 2011)

rick smith said:


> what you posted makes a lot of sense Aaron, but i can't agree with this part :
> 
> re: "I spent a good long time being absolutely manipulated by my dog because she figured out that if she could frustrate me enough, I'd put her away to avoid doing something rash out of anger.
> --- AHA! says the dog, if I play dumb and act like I don't know sitz from platz, he'll get pissed off. Piss him off and I don't have to do that thing I don't want to do today.
> ...


Yes, the doggy monologue is anthropomorphized for humor, but the premise is sound.

The dog learns that a certain behavior triggers a specific result.

If a dog can't plan ahead and anticipate the outcome of their actions, how do we justify corrections?
How do we train a dog at all, if the dog doesn't have the ability to understand that action x = result y?


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## Melody Greba (Oct 4, 2007)

I am going to make a quick reply to this thread. And probably won't be in this conversation long due to other time restraints. 

Extreme drive dogs are easy for helpers to stimulate or handlers that are training for service or strong sport. For those that want strength, power and perfection...you can put a lot of work and tasks on these dogs. 

Depending upon breed, extreme has specific traits. The same training methods do not work produce the same outcomes depending upon breed and some dogs that one may think is extreme, may be normal depending upon the trainer's experience and level. It is paramount to build in in basic manners during a pup's early growth stages that are fair and do not impair or cloud the dog's understanding for the wanted outcome for sport or service. Lack of clairty causes confusion, anxiety and often, handler aggression. 

The additional points to be mentioned that not all corrections and boundaries needs to be done by the handler. Of the people that I know that have made the USA World Team with their dogs, they all have a "support" group around them. By support, I mean to help train the dog. And you must utilize your support "team" in ways that they can help you and your dog to move forward past the areas where the dog may be extremely empowered and genetically intense. I think of this much like teachers that have a unified approach to rules and boundaries that comply with parents' values, while teaching of your kid at school. The environment teaches boundaries too, not just handlers. 

Extreme dogs are for talented handlers. Extreme dogs must have focus buit in early and have good nerves, not be nervous. Nervous dogs aren't necessarily extreme, just nervous. 

I embrace extreme dogs (I have 2 from different breeds) for the intensity that can be created. I also prefer extreme dogs because I am a task master and use that drive.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

James Downey said:


> That's where the real power lies in the motivator, not the deterent.
> 
> I watched a Bart B. Video...and he said something so simple it knocked me back. He said, people reward, all the time, behaviors they do not like. And he meant literally marking behaviors and giving rewards. not by accident, but intentional rewards.
> 
> Just thought.


Great thoughts James, my .02 on it is you are correct. 

My thoughts are going to be around most our dogs ultimate reward. 

*"THE BITE AND FIGHT WITH THE DECOY"* 

Most dogs .. my dogs any ways live and breathe for the conflict with the homme d'attaque. So it has been a big learning curve to get to a somewhat finished product <it is never finished> on the trial field. 
I was told by great trainer friend of mine. Which makes a lot of sense his statement was _

"Ask yourself on a scale of one to ten where you are as a handler and then ask yourself what is the same scale of your dog in all drive levels, hardness etc" _

If people are really honest I mean really honest we'd be surprised at the disparigy between most handler skills and what top bred top bloodline dogs drives can be. Or even know what they are looking at. 

So people then look to more experienced trainers who may have just a little bit more or a lot more to help them with the dog. Face it not everyone can be Bart B or be in a training team like Martine and Joao. So it is always a learning curve. 

People like most working canine breeds will follow the path of least resistance to the reward. It is just human nature and canine too. So that means with people using whatever they think will help them get to that Schh 3, CDx, <insert whatever title>. 



James Downey said:


> So, when does the rule change? What I mean is. Why do we look for drive so we control the animal, then later we blame it for our control problems. I am not einstein but, maybe, and just maybe. The problem is not the drive? maybe it's that the people saying this are deficient in thier ability to limit access to the reward?


Exactly this is what Bob Scott has been doing with his club's overall method. If the dog is not complying in the steps that get the dog to the ultimate reward his group takes that reward away. It is a pretty simple philosophy that works for them and I have used it with some success myself. 

Watching others train and seeing what I consider 'bad' training over the years. I've come to the conclusion that many people are always more worried about the *bottom line, i.e the end result* meaning bite and fight with the decoy than the steps to get there. Then will skip steps or ignore letting the dog fully understand a specific part of the exercise before going ahead. Then it is all about covering up those missed steps with band aids come trial time. 

We see it all the time, even outside of bite work. People practicing stand in motions, change of positions etc in the parking lot. Even decoys agitating the dog and giving bites in the parking lot while they compulse the dog to out. Hey if they have to do that, you'd think .. I know I'd think that my dog wasn't ready to go on that day on the trial field. 

For me that is when people blame the dog's natural drives and all that other baloney for their failures on the trial field. To me it is never the dogs fault. There is a bit of chance sure that the sleeve may not get presented correctly etc and the dog bounces off but then that isn't the dogs fault either. 

Going back to what you were saying about limiting reward. This is again human nature with the bottom line, never the steps to get there. A ball or a tug placed over a jump and the dog gets rewarded for knocking the bar off cause he/she knows the ball is there. It is just relinquishing training control, bad training, bad timing just bad everything. Even the example of the little old lady with the Pomeranian in her lap who growls at the man walking by, so she pets the dog saying "that's all right precious" She just rewarded the dog for growling and reinforces that behaviour. Ha ha! That same type of scenario happens with hi-end sport dogs too! 

The biggest thing in my training now is limiting reward while limiting correction, finding that balance. I was big on ball reward on recalls off the decoy and food reward for OB and jumps, and pop pop pop on the leash vs voice correction etc. My coach is always giving me hell for my own bad timing over inappropriate rewards and even the odd ill timed correction. But seeing the progress of my handling skills to seeing the dogs really progress is really cool now that I am understanding the way these type of dogs tick when you are square with what you want . 

That means being clear in what you are teaching the dog and not moving ahead until the dog understands it. That way the dog wins and is not put in a position of failing over and over again while teaching the exercises and behaviours. But also understanding yourself as a handler and what your job is on the training field vs the trial field. 



Brian Anderson said:


> James a moniker I have come to really believe in with dogs especially is: " Sometimes knowing what not to do is more important than knowing what to do"


Yup yup I can relate to that! 

There is a lot more than just training the dog, sometimes people have to train themselves first.


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

nicely said Geoff


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

_That means being clear in what you are teaching the dog and not moving ahead until the dog understands it. That way the dog wins and is not put in a position of failing over and over again while teaching the exercises and behaviours. But also understanding yourself as a handler and what your job is on the training field vs the trial field. _

This is the key to whole thing .. well put


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Quote
"Let the trainer examine himself when the dog makes a mistake, or does not understand the exercise, or fails in obedience and let him ask "Where am I at fault?"

Max von Stephanitz


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

I have what I consider to be a high drive dog. 

The up side is that this makes things easy for me and I have a lot of dog to work with. It's all right there - I don't have to cajole or cheerlead, he just brings it. Food, toy, praise, all good. He does everything full on.

The down side is that it doesn't take much to spin him up into orbit where his tiny Malinois brain can't think and he becomes frantic. Barking, bouncing, eyes bugging out of his head, spit flying. For me, it's about finding the balance point of high enough in drive to have something to work with, but not tipping over the edge to craziness. I'm working on that. Would more control crush that drive?

He's a nice dog, with a happy personality. He's forgiving of my mistakes. I'm not sure how I would deal with a dog with drive like his with a more serious or less forgiving attitude. 

I see my Dutchie as more balanced. Not so easy to spin up, so I have to work harder, but not so likely to end up in outer space, either.


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

leslie cassian said:


> I have what I consider to be a high drive dog.
> 
> The up side is that this makes things easy for me and I have a lot of dog to work with. It's all right there - I don't have to cajole or cheerlead, he just brings it. Food, toy, praise, all good. He does everything full on.
> 
> ...


 
If its a good dog, more control wont crush it.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

will fernandez said:


> If its a good dog, more control wont crush it.


Amen. That is the bottom line


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## Steve Burger (Jan 2, 2009)

Aaron Myracle said:


> Seems like I've spent the last year fixing all the things I did wrong in the two previous years.
> Boy this dog is schooling me.


Hence my favorite quote from Lance Collins: "The points you are looking for in the end are the ones you missed in the beginning". Just out of curiosity, since I live in WA state, where do you train?


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## Steve Burger (Jan 2, 2009)

will fernandez said:


> If its a good dog, more control wont crush it.


Yes but how the control is administered is a huge consideration. I have seen some very high drive dogs that also have an extreme level of hardness where the handler has to keep upping the ante to get the desired results. By the way high drive is not necessarily synonymous with hardness. I think, however especially with the harder dog, having had to up the ante, can spell disaster when the tools we are able to administer for control are unavailable on the trial field. We have competitors at our club who compete at a very high level (last year, in Spain we had 3 on our team compete at the WUSV for team Canada, in the last 4 years we have had 7 appearances by competitors at the World Championships). In our system we have gone to more finesse and subtle controls of late. A big part of that switch came as a result of dogs getting very trial wise. In our search of outside resources to improve our system we also potentially found a solution to that problem as well ( I will not share that). 

Another poster also brought up having the dog work _through_ the handler to get to the reward. I think this is very evident in protection work. When the dog sees the obedience factor (appropriately applied) as being the key to get to the helper you will actually see an increase in drive on the helper. My training director (Lance Collins) has a favorite saying, which is prey drive+conflict= power. The obedience is the conflict for the dog. 

I think that a major reason that we can get such good results in protection is the dog has to be active from the very start in our system. Our helpers are not running around like jack rabbits to stimulate the dog. The dog being active stimulates the helper. We are not wagging the dog, so to speak. This results in more offensive fight drive in the work.


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

Steve Burger said:


> I think that a major reason that we can get such good results in protection is the dog has to be active from the very start in our system. Our helpers are not running around like jack rabbits to stimulate the dog. The dog being active stimulates the helper. We are not wagging the dog, so to speak. This results in more offensive fight drive in the work.


Hey look at that. We like the same thing.


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## Shade Whitesel (Aug 18, 2010)

The higher the drive the better in my opinion. I just control access to the reinforcer. You do have to have a clear head and the dog has to have a genetic ability to control itself. With whatever method, you cannot put into a dog what isn't there in the first place; balanced drives, etc...
I like to channel that drive and put as little conflict into it as possible. I prefer to get my power in other ways. 
I was the one who said if someone else is going to correct their dog 3 times on the field, I have to find a way to reward my dog those three times. It doesn't take any more time or dedication than any other method. Just a flip of your thinking. And an association for the dog that if he does it right, and speedy and precise, and if he works hard enough, he will eventually earn that reward. 
Not to mention that the work becomes a reward unto itself. Just got a 97 in my dog's FH because he loves to track. Does he love to track because I have built in problem solving and rewards and this becomes reinforcing to him even over 1200 paces without a food or ball reward? Or did I just get a high drive tracker that somehow will stop at those articles?


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## Lisa Radcliffe (Jun 9, 2011)

Shade Whitesel said:


> The higher the drive the better in my opinion. I just control access to the reinforcer. You do have to have a clear head and the dog has to have a genetic ability to control itself. With whatever method, you cannot put into a dog what isn't there in the first place; balanced drives, etc...
> I like to channel that drive and put as little conflict into it as possible. I prefer to get my power in other ways.
> I was the one who said if someone else is going to correct their dog 3 times on the field, I have to find a way to reward my dog those three times. It doesn't take any more time or dedication than any other method. Just a flip of your thinking. And an association for the dog that if he does it right, and speedy and precise, and if he works hard enough, he will eventually earn that reward.
> Not to mention that the work becomes a reward unto itself. Just got a 97 in my dog's FH because he loves to track. Does he love to track because I have built in problem solving and rewards and this becomes reinforcing to him even over 1200 paces without a food or ball reward? Or did I just get a high drive tracker that somehow will stop at those articles?


Very well said "channel that drive and put as little conflict into it as possible. I prefer to get my power in other ways" Congrats to you and your dog for a great score on your FH! sounds like you have a high drive tracker and a thoughtful intelligent training method-


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## Alegria Cebreco (Jul 25, 2007)

Shade Whitesel said:


> The higher the drive the better in my opinion. I just control access to the reinforcer. You do have to have a clear head and the dog has to have a *genetic ability to control itself*. With whatever method, you cannot put into a dog what isn't there in the first place; balanced drives, etc...


How would you train a dog that doesn't have that ability? My dog cannot control himself during a long down. Any other scenario he's great in (he is influenced by his environment and can get very amped up but can redirect that drive into awesome focus and intensity but not in the down). I have great control in obedience and even better control in protection (with minimal formal obedience training in protection, very few physical corrections as he's very responsive to my voice alone). I just cant wrap my head around how he's so responsive in protection (which is an activity that entices his highest level of drive) yet can't control himself to stay down. Any suggestions? Is inability to cap drives a sign of weak nerves? Or is it me causing the problem?


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Alegria Cebreco said:


> How would you train a dog that doesn't have that ability? My dog cannot control himself during a long down. Any other scenario he's great in (he is influenced by his environment and can get very amped up but can redirect that drive into awesome focus and intensity but not in the down). I have great control in obedience and even better control in protection (with minimal formal obedience training in protection, very few physical corrections as he's very responsive to my voice alone). I just cant wrap my head around how he's so responsive in protection (which is an activity that entices his highest level of drive) yet can't control himself to stay down. Any suggestions? Is inability to cap drives a sign of weak nerves? Or is it me causing the problem?


Sounds like a simple training issue that you've caused. Now that he has gotten away with it a few times he has reinforced in his head that he can do what he pleases. Does he break at a certain point? i.e under the gun fire? 

What I would do is go back to the beginning and start it over again. Either back tie him on a portable tie out to his prong with 6in-1ft of slack. So if he breaks the exercise he gets self corrected. Then don't go as far give him lots reward for the down and keep making it longer and increasing the distance. But leave him on the tie out so he can't make the mistake. Then you could transfer it to a e-collar if needed down the line.


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## Shade Whitesel (Aug 18, 2010)

Well if your dog can control himself in protection, I'd say he has the ability to control himself in an obedience down. Can he control himself in a long down with a bite on the helper as a reward? 
Go back to the beginning and reward the dog in the down. I want my dog to understand that the harder he presses his belly into the ground and stares at me, the more likely I am to go back to him and reward him. And then proof the crap out of it at many different places in many different contexts.


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## Aaron Myracle (May 2, 2011)

Alegria Cebreco said:


> How would you train a dog that doesn't have that ability? My dog cannot control himself during a long down. Any other scenario he's great in (he is influenced by his environment and can get very amped up but can redirect that drive into awesome focus and intensity but not in the down). I have great control in obedience and even better control in protection (with minimal formal obedience training in protection, very few physical corrections as he's very responsive to my voice alone). I just cant wrap my head around how he's so responsive in protection (which is an activity that entices his highest level of drive) yet can't control himself to stay down. Any suggestions? Is inability to cap drives a sign of weak nerves? Or is it me causing the problem?


Yes, it's you. 
Did you read the thread? Bob's quote from the master himself answers that question for you:



> "Let the trainer examine himself when the dog makes a mistake, or does not understand the exercise, or fails in obedience and let him ask "Where am I at fault?"


The idea that the dog "doesn't have the ability" is in your head, not in reality.
He can control himself just fine, he's simply choosing not to.

Probably because the pay-off for doing something so incredibly boring sucks.

Will you come to my house and pick up all my dog's crap every day for the next month? In exchange, I'll take you to McDonald's and buy you a Big Mac and fries on the last day of the month.
Sound like a good deal?

If he has self-control in Protection, he has self-control everywhere.
He's just not exercising it, because the pay off in the OB long down isn't nearly as nice as the payoff in protection.

Start rewarding the long down better.
Start having the dog do a long down with the helper on the field, and let him have a bite as a reward if you have to.

Correct him when he breaks his down, but for chrissakes, pay him well when he's correct.

ETA:
What Shade said.


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## Chad Sloan (Jun 2, 2010)

Perhaps pulling habits out of rats isn't always where it's at.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Chad Sloan said:


> Perhaps pulling habits out of rats isn't always where it's at.



chuckle, chuckle. 

DFrost


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

I have one of those, so called, "super high drive" dogs that bounces off the walls 24/7. XGF raised her and the dog acts just like a spoilt kid when the XGf is around. XGF goes home, the dog is good as gold in the house with me. Settles immediately. I used to lay awake night worring that I may be crushing her drive because she was so well mannered with me. LOL Not a chance. She is still a crazy, high drive dog outside or when the XGF is present. Just like a kid. Seems to depend on the handler running the show. This thread has been a real blessing to me. I really didn't know what a drivey dog this was. I thought she was like that because the XGF let her get by with it.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> I have one of those, so called, "super high drive" dogs that bounces off the walls 24/7. XGF raised her and the dog acts just like a spoilt kid when the XGf is around. XGF goes home, the dog is good as gold in the house with me. Settles immediately. I used to lay awake night worring that I may be crushing her drive because she was so well mannered with me. LOL Not a chance. She is still a crazy, high drive dog outside or when the XGF is present. Just like a kid. Seems to depend on the handler running the show. This thread has been a real blessing to me. I really didn't know what a drivey dog this was. I thought she was like that because the XGF let her get by with it.


Another, great observation by Don. That relationship with the dog matters.


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## Alegria Cebreco (Jul 25, 2007)

Thanks Geoff, Shade and Aaron. I appreciate your replies. I have gone back to the basics of the down and not letting my anxiety get in the way. Right now I'm not even using a leash because I feel it creates a sort of nervous hysteria because he can feel my tension (and see it in my body language as well) and me physically correcting him just amps him up even more. I went back to completely reteaching the down. Right now, I'm positioning myself between him and the distraction that desperately needs his immediate attention (or so he thinks :twisted and am able to remind him what he is doing before he gets too interested. I also return back to him frequently when he's doing good and reward him. He still stands up or attempts to bolt but catches him self and just stands there then lays back down after a verbal correction and the command again. Its nowhere near a finished product but I think we've made great improvements as I would much rather him just stand up (for now) then completely loose his head (and hearing) and just bolt without thought. We are getting there slowly but surely, I was just curious about dogs that literally cant control themselves because for the longest time I could of swore I had one of those (sometimes I still think that, its much easier to put the blame anywhere else than yourself)

We haven't formally trained in a couple of years but I hope to get back into Schutzhund training and not let something as simple as a down deter my enthusiasm. I have a good dog, and I am now in a good place to accept that instead of focusing on the very few flaws my dog has.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

OK, I'm curious. You have a dog that you have all the control in the world with obedience and protection but he is environmentally triggered during the long down. Can you describe the level of protection you are and obedience. What's the environmental trigger? Where were you standing in relationship to the dog when you were having problems? Are you saying that if you are standing next to him and you command down, something can trigger him to get up? Maybe, you have a time/distance issue--too far/fast, too soon.

Terrasita


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

I have seen and experienced myself problems in OB if the handler is green...but if you have a good helper, having good PR.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> OK, I'm curious. You have a dog that you have all the control in the world with obedience and protection but he is environmentally triggered during the long down. Can you describe the level of protection you are and obedience. What's the environmental trigger? Where were you standing in relationship to the dog when you were having problems? Are you saying that if you are standing next to him and you command down, something can trigger him to get up? Maybe, you have a time/distance issue--too far/fast, too soon.
> 
> Terrasita


I would be interested in the environmental issue in this part of the trial????


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

James Downey said:


> I have seen and experienced myself problems in OB if the handler is green...but if you have a good helper, having good PR.


 
What does that mean??


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Gillian,

A dog that behaves in protection, but does not in OB. The difference I have experienced when I was much greener and just watching other green handlers is generally while the handler is learning in PR. The helper is controlling the reward and maybe demanding better criteria for behavior, have better timing, and just generally better at understanding the behaviors already present. In OB the Handler is controlling the reward,has sloppy criteria, the timing of reward in not good, the reward schedule is not planned as well, and probably is a little less versed in judging the behaviors already present. So the OB suffers and the protection does not.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

James Downey said:


> Gillian,
> 
> A dog that behaves in protection, but does not in OB. The difference I have experienced when I was much greener and just watching other green handlers is generally while the handler is learning in PR. The helper is controlling the reward and maybe demanding better criteria for behavior, have better timing, and just generally better at understanding the behaviors already present. In OB the Handler is controlling the reward,has sloppy criteria, the timing of reward in not good, the reward schedule is not planned as well, and probably is a little less versed in judging the behaviors already present. So the OB suffers and the protection does not.


what the hell is PR? Public Relations???


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Joby Becker said:


> what the hell is PR? Public Relations???


Probably Protection?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Probably Protection?


ahhh....I feel so smart right now  thank you yet again, Thomas..


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Joby Becker said:


> ahhh....I feel so smart right now  thank you yet again, Thomas..


You're welcome Joby.
It's what I live for ;-)


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