# Ever wonder where you'd end up if you took your dog for a walk and never once pulled



## Chris Viscovich (Apr 2, 2014)

This thought intrigued me enough to put it into practice on Sunday morning. 21 degrees ambient and suited up for a trek with food, water and GoPro, Shadow and I departed our home at 0700. I was led (running the whole time) through a couple of backyards and across a stream to our Greenway trail (a 6 mile paved running and bike trail we often use for running and ruck marches). Shadow proceeded to lead me to the trail end, glance at me seeking approval and turn around. We then ran to the other end and she did the same, After a couple of circuits, I realized that just like the pattern “racetracks “ that she has created in our yard and house, she was following a really long one with me in tow, and would probably do this until her paws were worn thin. I decided at that point to alter the pattern slightly by taking three steps off the path…pattern broken… Shadow took a few steps into the woods and stood staring me down for 10 minutes without a step and then transitioned to a sit for another 5 minutes. Since the windchill had brought the temperature into the teens and we had just gone from a run to standing still, I watched her start to shiver and called the experiment done. On the return trip home when we reached the frozen stream I shouldered Shadow across and the next half mile home to warm up. After about two minutes back in the house Shadow was hovering around the back door and wanted out again. Hardcore pup!


----------



## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

interesting ... 
- why did that intrigue you ?

off topic, but i occasionally try and see how long i could take my dog out for a walk around the city and only use verbal commands, and see how long i could keep the lead totally slack 
- ever try that ?


----------



## Chris Viscovich (Apr 2, 2014)

Being a long time owner, but new to dog handling, I now love to observe my dog's behaviors and reflect. Dogs may be simple in the eyes of both the oblivious and critical observer, but more complex for someone in between. Having been training with a dog for months at another location and only having the dog in our home for the last two months, I was curious about whether any distinct patterns had been formed, whether she knew her way home, or what in the environment interested her (but was never let to explore her curiosities).

My dog exhibits independence in an open field, but on leash is more dependent and pleasing (I realize that the experiment was biased by use of the collar and leash). Shadow relies on me for direction much of the time and becomes tends to become anxious without direction. 

I would love to try this off-leash, but we are not ready for that yet for safety reasons. 

We try to walk slack leash with verbal commands only every day, every time we walk and train agility and obstacles. This works extremely well for patterns and places that we have been before, and we can muddle through most new situations with the basic verbal commands (come,sit, down, stay, heel, wait, up, jump, easy and of course yes, no and anh-anh) and I use touch or point for specific locations. A city-scape would be a real challenge with all of the distractions, as she tends to be reactive to new sounds.

She did well at the local Mardi Gras parade this weekend, but became a little stressed over long exposure duration.


----------



## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

what new behaviours did you observe that you hadn't seen before ?

since you left from your home, kinda sounds like she went where she would normally expect you to take her. that might explain the occasional "look back"
- and when you deviated, she was somewhat eluctant to go off in a new direction
- good point about the collar and lead. dogs ALWAYS act different when they are on/off lead, and on lead usually means fewer commands needed. when you take a dog out to let it off lead, what is the first thing they usually do when the lead comes off ??? .....correct //lol//

not that it matters, but i have always made it a point to NEVER walk my dog the same way twice in a row and i DETEST the owners around the neighbourhood who do exactly that. plus i can set my watch by their walk times :-(
- i think that is grossly UNstimulating for a dog unless all you want to do it poop and pee it. 

i like the idea of sitting back and observing your dog, but would suggest some more imaginative ways to put her in new situations. or even try the same routine and compare it under daylight and night time conditions, etc.

- i happen to enjoy that my dog is dependent on me when we go out for walks. and it certainly makes it easier on me; but that's just me 
- he never knows whether we will turn left or right when we get to the bottom of our STEEP front steps, and since i'm 67 and getting brittle, i like that too, because it NEVER happens like that when i'm taking a boarded dog out //lol//


----------



## Chris Viscovich (Apr 2, 2014)

Great comments.

The new behaviors/observations that I noticed were: 
1. She took an exploratory path that we have never gone on to get to the start of the trail. 
2. My dog choose a turnaround point that was slightly different from my own. It seems as if she was close enough to see and smell the end, that was enough for her to decide to turn back.
3. She rarely stays in place when not specifically told to place, stay or wait, the fact that she choose (taken lightly) to remain in one spot for so long waiting for guidance was interesting to me. 
4. She made more eye contact with me then usual. She tends to not directly look me in the eye, but she was seriously staring me down when we were standing still.

We start by getting reliable repeatability and then making changes from an established baseline.
We mix up our training quite a bit with: alternate locations, venues, distractions (firearms, fireworks, other dogs, inclement weather), heights/elevation, different surfaces, etc;  and perform scenario based training with single and multiple decoys.

All of our daily walks have agility exercises embedded which provide small variation. In the evening training sessions we mix it up as well with competitive agility, tracking, tug/protection or detection work being in the available rotation and not on a fixed schedule (Monday is not tracking day, etc)


----------



## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

good

i kinda figured u didn't just walk your dog to pee and poop it 

it's just a pet peeve of mine that i always rant about whenever i get the chance//loll//

but i suspect even the most dedicated dog owners get lazy every now and then
- i know i have been guilty of it 
- too easy to just "put it outside" then go out together and make an outing out of it


----------



## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Yes, and every time I have it's turned out to be an incredible experience. I think you can build upon what you observed - if you choose to. Particularly if the fact that she looks to you for guidance and appeared to become anxious without direction is a concern to you. For some people, they find comfort or satisfaction in that expression of a need for direction from their dogs. 

For me it would be (a concern) as I prefer my dogs to develop independence separate from me, even if they're not naturally inclined to be that way. The dutch is a good example of this. I won't go into what I've done to foster that but I've found that except where necessary, routines can hinder the dog/handler experience too much. In essence, I want them to trust life. I don't want new, unusal, etc. to be met with anything other than the mindset of forward curiosity and the expectation of opportunity.

Chris, good job for taking the time to explore this with your dog. Did you use your GoPro?


----------



## Chris Viscovich (Apr 2, 2014)

GoPro was on me, so that it would not be a burden to Shadow. It will also allow me to deconstruct body language that I did not pick up in real time. I still need to review the footage and edit it down to some interesting clips. I hope that my running motion (it was mounted on the Chesty mount) is stabilized and that the video is useful. 

I am sure that you have discussed your independence philosophy and training methods in some other posts. I'll try a search. I for one would love to hear more. 

Thanks for your inputs.


----------



## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

I really haven't, at least not publicly. If I did, it'd probably amount to some kind of weird Bruce Lee type dialogue. I'm a curious and active observer (something I enjoy doing particularly where dogs are concerned), what I observe translates to a different kind of experience/action in and from me. People develop a "feel" for things through physical repetition like muscle memory or the ability detect patterns as things occur. I'm of the opinion you can develop that ability as well through extensive observation and refine it by adding in conventional and unconventionable variables as well, it just translates differently. 

Just go with it. You are on the right track.


----------



## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

Chris; since you list "personal protection".....

one way you might want to compare independence Vs dependence is the example of a livestock guardian Vs a canine family protector.

a dog who spends most of its time living with and guarding a herd must act independently. 
it must be able to recognize what is a threat and deal with it without human guidance. 

a dog living with a family will need more human guidance and must therefore be more dependent since human threats are not as easy to assess

and there are also people who get one type and want it to do both jobs 

imo, what comes natural in one situation may not in another even tho we'd like to believe it is almost the same 
... therefore, more training (dependence) is usually required for a PPD

as the training progresses we want to add pressure but still maintain the confidence Vs fear balance

----------------------------------------------------

looking back to the handler can come in many flavours. for that, i try to strike a balance of confidence vs fear. behaviour too far in either direction is undesirable for me and usually results in other problems and why a client comes to me in the first place ... i rarely train with balanced dogs but wish i got more. they're the most fun to train with  

since i view training as simply making a dog do something it would not choose to do when left alone, it all depends on the problems or the "job" in terms of how much "training" it needs

btw, sorry-- i realize this is drifting off topic .... usually happens that way on the WDF


----------



## Chris Viscovich (Apr 2, 2014)

Rick,

She is indeed intended to be a PPD for my family. As such, we looked for particular characteristics in the dog that would match our needs. 

We have a good girl, with multiple personalities: On the field, she is a workaholic (play/toy rewards), at home she is a lap dog with high level of awareness (physical contact rewards). At first she was stressed in the house because there was no distinct job to do (lots of pacing), but she has come to understand her place in the family as her indoor job now.

In my opinion a dog that tends to aggression (through training or instinct) is much like a loaded handgun and must be handled with a special care. While bonded dogs are perceptive and sensitive to owners emotions, rarely is there a case where I would trust the future of my dog and my family to a dog's read of a particular situation and independent action. The cost of getting this wrong is very great. From this perspective, a dog that shows dependence on an owner for acknowledgement is desirable. We drill with specific commands, encourage drive, create focus and ferocity and then demand the dog to stop doing the most rewarding thing in the world (the bite) on our command. 
The only choices are where and how to bite.

Like you stated above, we do tend to want our cake and eat it. In most other situations, we would rather that our dog was confident, well-adjusted, and independent enough to choose behaviors within a set of boundaries. You can choose to be anywhere in the house besides on the couches or beds, as opposed to I am going to stoically wait at the door and starve myself until you return. (A man and his dog) 

As for the confidence vs. fear:
It was hard to determine if my dog was seeking positive reinforcement or avoiding correction. Probably both. I train using a balance of both varying the intensity to the situation. I'll use fetch as an example. 
Dog is commanded to perform obedience->ball is thrown-> Dog retrieves-> Come command is given-> Dog acknowledges command but does not return immediately->corrective "no"-> dog returns-> big praise and play resumes.

With my dog I have to be very careful with my use of corrections. She is very sensitive and will shut down if pushed too far. As a new handler I very much used (probably overused) the prong collar as a crutch (which created stress and avoidance issues) to bridge until our relationship had developed and have since gone to the flat and slack leash with verbal corrections. The prong is now only used to sharpen behaviors or at times when there is no room for disobedience. 

As stated many times on the forum here, the mythical PPD is able to achieve a balance between safe and fun family life (in order to be included, bond and be available) and a high protection/prey drive. Most of the Mals that I have dealt with that work for the PD, herding dogs or sport dogs are just so energetic that they would never make great house pets. Just my limited exposure, of course. 

I think that we have a dog with the right stuff and the commitment not to screw up too badly.


----------



## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

i agree with your summary and philosophy re: a PPD

if you want to have a serious discussion on everything "PPD" i really wish you you would start a thread. we have MANY people here with knowledge that could help you unless your dog is a finished done deal 

i have posted before on the subject, but DO NOT train PPD's here in japan.

i do meet navy types who have an interest in getting their dog more protective and have evaluated quite a few working breeds ... all were dogs they brought over from the states

i would caution you to provide a clear description of what PPD means to you and specifically focus on training requirements and disregard the "i know my dog will protect our family when it's needed" opinions. 

there have been a few short video clips posted over the years that were home based PPD scenarios, but there has never been an in depth discussion of how to train a PPD from start to finish. at least (imo) no discussions that had any "beef in the burger", if u catch my drift. 
* i say that bad on never seeing the proofing side of the training, which i feel is essential before you could consider a dog a family PPD

i would be glad to provide my opinions on how to evaluate PPD potential, but it is based on my own "narrow minded" views on what i consider are requirements for a family PPD

but i would MUCH rather see and read about how they have been trained by the people who have been there and done that


----------



## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

*correction*
..... still can't get the new mac off autopilot :-(((((

re: "i say that bad on never seeing......"

should read this way : " i say that BASED on never seeing........."


----------



## Chris Viscovich (Apr 2, 2014)

PPD threat started in the PPD forum. Jump right in!


----------



## Wayne Scace (Jun 1, 2014)

*Hi,
Thank you for sharing.
Since Harley is my Guide we don't wander around. We travel with a destination in mind when we step out of the door.
I am in no way criticizing the OP, but sharing my viewpoint.

*


----------



## Chris Viscovich (Apr 2, 2014)

Wayne,
Interesting counterpoint. Maybe not a fit in your circumstance to try a practical exercise, but maybe a theoretical or imaginative exercise may serve you best.


----------



## Wayne Scace (Jun 1, 2014)

Chris Viscovich said:


> Wayne,
> Interesting counterpoint. Maybe not a fit in your circumstance to try a practical exercise, but maybe a theoretical or imaginative exercise may serve you best.


*There have been times that we roam and explore our neighborhood, hut mainly travel with intent is the order of the day...*


----------



## Meg O'Donovan (Aug 20, 2012)

Wayne Scace said:


> *There have been times that we roam and explore our neighborhood, hut mainly travel with intent is the order of the day...*


Hey Wayne, how are guide dogs taught to pay attention to hazards far above their eye level, e.g. like street signs. It must be quite a task for the dog to be noting hazards at ground level, dog's eye level, and way up above that. Is the dog scanning left to right, up and down, all the time? Or is there a specific way to teach avoidance of street signs or scaffolding into which the handler might bump?


----------



## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Slightly related:

Last year I decided to take a little day hike with Arkane, on the map, the trail was about 5 miles round trip. This is a wilderness area with no cell service. I had not told anyone where I was going. I got lost. We wandered around for hours. When it got dark I started getting seriously scared, I was cold, my feet were soaked, and this area has plenty of predators. In fact, I started crying. I finally just started trusting my dog. He towed my ass up deer trails, in and out of state forest lands. Finally we popped out onto a road which was about 2.5 miles from my car. Also scary walking to my car on a pitch black 2 lane road with cars roaring by us every now and again, but I have never been so relieved in my life. Because I was wearing my tracker, I know that we walked over 20 miles that day, which isn't that big of a deal when that's the plan, but that was not the plan that day. Oh and the really funny thing was when I realized I was lost I couldn't get the goddamn theme song from Gilligan's Island out of my head.


----------



## Meg O'Donovan (Aug 20, 2012)

Good story, Susan. I remember Bob Scott's story about telling his dog to "load up" and then following after the dog as he returned to the car. If I could keep up with my dog, this would be a good strategy. This is just another excellent reason to always have a dog with you in the bush.


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Meg O'Donovan said:


> Good story, Susan. I remember Bob Scott's story about telling his dog to "load up" and then following after the dog as he returned to the car. If I could keep up with my dog, this would be a good strategy. This is just another excellent reason to always have a dog with you in the bush.



Hey, at less then a yr from 70yrs old if I was lost in the woods now and told my dogs to "load up" I suspect when someone found them they would be patiently waiting at the car while I wandered around in the woods for weeks............well a day or two anyway. Then the dogs would get hungry, look for me, find the body and feast for a week..........cause they love me. :twisted: :-o8-[ :grin: :wink:


----------



## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Hey, Bob when you go walk-about have the wife call me. I need the cadaver training.... And I'm always looking for a body donation. (hint, hint)


----------



## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

I know exactly where he would take me. 

One side of our yard isn't fenced. It too rocky for the dogs to leave the yard. 

But there is a giant cat that strolls through every day. 

He spots it through the window and wants to nail it. 

When he's in the yard he sees where the cat lives. 

I'm sure he would take me around the block looking for it.


----------



## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Meg O'Donovan said:


> Good story, Susan. I remember Bob Scott's story about telling his dog to "load up" and then following after the dog as he returned to the car. If I could keep up with my dog, this would be a good strategy. This is just another excellent reason to always have a dog with you in the bush.


I don't remember Bob's story, but I'm still amazed at dog's incredible homing instinct, in the story I relayed, this was a spot we had never been to before, not parked anywhere near previously, so the fact that he managed to get me to where the car was parked, taking me on a completely different route and in the pitch black dark, was pretty incredible to me.


----------



## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Be glad that you experienced that. There's lots of people who will go their entire lives and never know what it's like to surrender themselves to something like that.


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I've had a few dogs that had no homing instincts.

Of my present two GSDs one could probably do the "lassie Come Home" thing without breaking a sweat.

The other I believe just wants to see how big the earth is. Totally controlable and I have taught him to stay within eye sight if walking in the woods. 

On his own I suspect he just may look for where that big shiny ball in the sky goes every night.

When I was hunting with my terriers they may be out of sight but every couple of mins or so they would do a fly by to keep in contact with me. A whistle from me would always bring them in fast.


----------



## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I was walking the dog when he sniffed in the air and disappeared. I waited and searched but to no avail.

When my husband came home, we drove around the area and there was Ben, where I had last seen him. I know now that he had followed the trail of a bitch in heat.

Some dogs wait at the last point they had seen you. Some go home.


----------



## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

susan tuck said:


> I don't remember Bob's story, but I'm still amazed at dog's incredible homing instinct, in the story I relayed, this was a spot we had never been to before, not parked anywhere near previously, so the fact that he managed to get me to where the car was parked, taking me on a completely different route and in the pitch black dark, was pretty incredible to me.


This was my first sar dog. I had him trained that if I said "time to go home" he would take me back to where we had started. Didn't mean he would backtrack himself but he would return me to the starting spot by whatever direction necessary. Was doing a certification test and he was trailing a guy in the woods. We found the guy but now we were all turned around. I told Jack to take me home and he starts off. The others didn't want to keep up nor did they want me to wait saying they would just take the footpaths back. Jack got me back to the cars ( by a different direction then how we left them) but an hour later, the others were still missing. Was just harnessing up the dog to go find them when they showed up. They had gotten lost on the way back. Now I make it a habit to teach all my dogs to 'go home'.


----------



## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Sarah Platts said:


> This was my first sar dog. I had him trained that if I said "time to go home" he would take me back to where we had started. Didn't mean he would backtrack himself but he would return me to the starting spot by whatever direction necessary. Was doing a certification test and he was trailing a guy in the woods. We found the guy but now we were all turned around. I told Jack to take me home and he starts off. The others didn't want to keep up nor did they want me to wait saying they would just take the footpaths back. Jack got me back to the cars ( by a different direction then how we left them) but an hour later, the others were still missing. Was just harnessing up the dog to go find them when they showed up. They had gotten lost on the way back. Now I make it a habit to teach all my dogs to 'go home'.


 Wow that's a great story too. Dogs are amazing. That's what I do now too, where ever we're hiking, when I'm ready to go home I say "let's go home", and then always big reward when we get back to the car just in case I ever need him to do it again.


----------



## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

susan tuck said:


> Wow that's a great story too. Dogs are amazing. That's what I do now too, where ever we're hiking, when I'm ready to go home I say "let's go home", and then always big reward when we get back to the car just in case I ever need him to do it again.


Dogs are amazing. What's amazing to me is how they come up with stuff that I never expected. They solve a problem (either simply or complexly) that has me scratching my head. And by having several at the same time, I've had the opportunity to see some fascinating stuff. One of the few times that I can see the value of not kenneling or crating the dogs.


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Gillian Schuler said:


> I was walking the dog when he sniffed in the air and disappeared. I waited and searched but to no avail.
> 
> When my husband came home, we drove around the area and there was Ben, where I had last seen him. I know now that he had followed the trail of a bitch in heat.
> 
> Some dogs wait at the last point they had seen you. Some go home.



When a **** hunter can't call in his dog after a night hunt it's common for them to toss down one of their jackets. They would very often find the dog curled up on the jacket the next morning or, as you say, find their way home. 
A **** hound can easily run 20 -25 miles a night.


----------



## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

I'd end up in my laneway playing seek and destroy with the neighbourhood cats.


----------

