# Hutch v. Tiekerhook



## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

This is Hutch v. Tiekerhook ("Boo"), who I'm currently working with at the club. He's 9 months old now, and my favorite dog ever.


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## Phil Dodson (Apr 4, 2006)

> He appears to have that look of it's all business!!


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## John Andrews (Apr 3, 2008)

Daryl, great looking dog!! What about Boo makes him your favorite dog ever? 

-John


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## Jose' Abril (Dec 6, 2007)

Nice pup Daryl,is he out of Max???


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

what breed is that dog? at first it looked like a GSD, but then i saw the straight back...

he's a beatiful dog daryl and by your "favorite dog ever" statement, i can only assume he has working abilities to match his looks as i know you've had some outstanding dogs.


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

Yep, out of Max and Quick. "Favorite dog ever" can mean alot of things I suppose  He definitely has all the qualities necessary for work and undoubtedly for producing them, incredible food drive, prey drive, early trainability, keenly perceptive, unquestionable willingness, can go from 0 to 60 in a fraction of a second, and even comes with an "off switch". Best investment I've ever made, for me he's "the one". He even makes me look like a more competent trainer than I am, because he really tries to read me, though he's pretty much a one-person dog, not responding well with instruction from others if I'm present. Approachable, but not greatly interested in other people, trustworthy with children and puppies, no dog aggression, and although he'll chase the cats he knows not to eat them. Sensitive to verbal command, insensitive to physical correction. He'll easily engage a stranger in "prey", but we're not pushing for civil just yet. He's taken a few chunks out of me, but I think I've learned to communicate restraint better now. My training director and many others at the club would love to take him off my hands, many of whom have far greater years experience and know a good one when they see it.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Tim Martens said:


> what breed is that dog? at first it looked like a GSD, but then i saw the straight back...
> 
> he's a beatiful dog daryl and by your "favorite dog ever" statement, i can only assume he has working abilities to match his looks as i know you've had some outstanding dogs.


He is indeed beautiful! That's what a GSD is supposed to look like! :mrgreen: I saw the back legs and topline first before I got to the head and for a second, I thought he was one of those fawn Mals with a lot of overlay. Looks great!


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Oh please give me a break. He looks nothing like a mal. He is very good looking, as are most WORKING line GSDs. What's important is the dogs ability to do the work, and I would be willing to bet this one will do very well. Darryl, from your description he reminds me of my old Tiekerhook dog. He was my once in a lifetime dog.


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## Anna Kasho (Jan 16, 2008)

Curious - Do you see any difference in his jumping ability, with straight hind legs like that? My first thought also was, he is shaped more like a mal, not that that is a bad thing. He's got the unmistakable heavier build of a GSD though 

Good looking dog


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

I guess no different than my other strait legged shepherds, I've never owned any "hock walkers" before ;-) He can jump just fine, even for a little fella. My worst training wound was from a bite above my eyebrow level (I'm 6ft tall).


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Me neither Daryl!


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

Flat backs and straitish legs, are how I like my GSD's. He'll be a stunner when he is filled out. Lots of bone like my male at that age. You have a winner Daryl!


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

i think he's got some QH in him--look at that butt


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## Terry Fisk (Jul 26, 2007)

Handsome young male. I love the Tiekerhook dogs! We have two Tiekerhook dogs in our club (one is ours; Max x Elsey) two others sired by Max v Tiekerhook and another out of a Tiekerhook bitch. Most of them are very substantial like your male and dead serious about their protection work.


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

Well, I only know of one female from this litter in the Phillipines, so if you know where any of his full siblings are and how they're doing, I'd be happy to know.


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## Al Curbow (Mar 27, 2006)

I'm with Susan on this. Kind of surprising that working dog folks don't know what a working lines GSD looks like. Nice looking dog Daryl and good luck with him.


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## Alegria Cebreco (Jul 25, 2007)

That is a GREAT looking GSD!!! Love his bone, looks like a very sturdy boy! :mrgreen:


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

That's a nice looking dog! 
Get all the "straight legged" bs out of your heads folks. That's show dog crap! Anyone ever seen a coyote or a wolf with "great" angualtion? Sure doesn't keep them from doing their job, does it!


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## Lyn Chen (Jun 19, 2006)

So can you say the Max pups really live up to the hype?


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

Well, I can say this one has thus far, though the rest is up to me!


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## Lyn Chen (Jun 19, 2006)

I've always wondered how Tiekerhook can get away with such close linebreedings to Fero...

How is he in the house?


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

Perfectly fine, he settles well, unlike some others I have. If he wants to play, he doesn't push too hard if I don't respond. We can kick back and relax, and he likes affectionate scratching too.


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

Both my GSD pups have straight legs and backs. Whats the big deal?


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## Terry Fisk (Jul 26, 2007)

Lyn Chen said:


> So can you say the Max pups really live up to the hype?


Definitely!


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

I'm not sure what the big deal is, all my dogs are strait too. Even my showline (Oh my God, yes I had one) didn't have an over angulated rear set. Her back was funky but she didn't walk on her hocks.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Al Curbow said:


> Kind of surprising that working dog folks don't know what a working lines GSD looks like.


There are a lot of working line GSD at the various fields I train on (most double as Sch training fields) in this area, and most are not as "upright" as this youngster. I like his build, but I wouldn't say he looks like the norm for what I see.


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## Mari Steward (Mar 3, 2008)

I love your pup, he is nice. He definitely has a working physic.


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

Thanks, here he is in "kickback-drive"


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

well, all i can say is, he's 9 mo old, and at that weird "which part will i grow next?" stage. i still think he's got some QH in him tho


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## Phil Dodson (Apr 4, 2006)

> Knowing his lines does he often even at this age want to challenge you?


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## Anna Kasho (Jan 16, 2008)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> There are a lot of working line GSD at the various fields I train on (most double as Sch training fields) in this area, and most are not as "upright" as this youngster. I like his build, but I wouldn't say he looks like the norm for what I see.


Thanks, that is what I was thinking, but I didn't put it so clearly. Also, I never said I preferred any over angulated show dogs, did I?? I merely wondered if the leg shape and bone length affects his jumping ability - for better or worse. I have straight backed and straight legged *Mals* for cryin' out loud...:mrgreen:


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

Phil Dodson said:


> > Knowing his lines does he often even at this age want to challenge you?


No, not at all. He is not a "dominant" dog. I allow aggressive playing among my dogs, and he is "secure" enough to not get overly serious. He will fence-fight with my other male, but put them together and 'everything's cool'. Too much 'rank-drive' can be very tiresome, and I'm relieved not having to deal with that this time around.

I discussed with Koos rumors of handler aggression in the linebred Yoschi lines, and he assured me... _"Yoschy brings no handler aggressive. That are rumors. I train with him many times. Use him 12 times in my breeding, make also very close line bred. Never 1 pup/dog who show this.!!! But Christy knows my opinion: the influence of the bitch is very important!!!"_

The female lines could be the real issue for many reports. And, I think many would agree with me in this, that upbringing has alot to do with it. Proper socialization is probably something of a lower priority among many clients of Tiekerhook. I think oftentimes many will push their dogs overly hard at very young age, trampling across thresholds they should be more observant about. There is no single formula to follow for all dogs, each dog for me is a single case that I intuitively and perceptively consider as we progress.


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## Phil Dodson (Apr 4, 2006)

> Thanks much for the response.


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## Tim Martens (Mar 27, 2006)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> There are a lot of working line GSD at the various fields I train on (most double as Sch training fields) in this area, and most are not as "upright" as this youngster. I like his build, but I wouldn't say he looks like the norm for what I see.


exactly. i have seen plenty of "working" lined dogs with angulation. certainly not as severe as the show lined dogs, but certainly none as straight as this dog. my last GSD was pretty upright, but again, not as much as this guy...


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

For his age, absolutely normal and correct. Take a look at him down the road and see what he looks like then. Little guy is just a pup! He most likely will still go through a gawky stage, and I am sure will end up correct as most working line GSDs should look and do - at least the ones I have and know.


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

Yeah, that pic was two weeks old now, and he's really filling out now. Here's some small pics of the parents for comparison. They're stretched out a little more in the stance.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Oh yeah, look at all that horrible angulation, wow what a mess (not).


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## Lyn Chen (Jun 19, 2006)

Isn't a *slight* angulation (obviously not the messed up ones we see with the show lines) part of the breed standard, I think for the purpose of endurance?


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## Sarah ten Bensel (Mar 16, 2008)

Lyn Chen said:


> Isn't a *slight* angulation (obviously not the messed up ones we see with the show lines) part of the breed standard, I think for the purpose of endurance?


My understanding is that angulation is for a more effortless gait for herding to cover more ground with less energy. However, too much angulation is NOT energy efficient, dogs must gait a lot faster to get full extension in the showlines. This is not conducive for endurance.

I like Hutch. He is very handsome! Nandi has several Tiekerhook dogs in his pedigree too. Koos has a good thing going. Serious dogs for serious owners--do ya feel guilty for owning such a nice dog Daryl?


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

Not at all. If it wasn't for the few good ones to be found, I'd have given up with this breed by now.


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## Lyn Chen (Jun 19, 2006)

Ah, come on, it's still right up there. Could be worse, look at the Dobermann.

Don't give up. We need to keep the good breeders of this breed we've got. Are you planning to use the west lines with your DDR females, Daryl? That'll be interesting to see.


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

I have only one DDR dog, her first litter (and perhaps only litter) on the ground now at 3 weeks old. I can't say I'm all that thrilled with DDR lines, though my favorite Czech lines are predominantly DDR. I've owned one other DDR dog (her sibling) who was very large, and 90lbs at 11 months old, that I sold. And a couple years ago, a half DDR / half Czech dog with bad temperament (lack of respect, no willingness). There may be something in DDR lines for me, a nice outcross at least, but I don't care for the long wait in "maturity." Greater than two years is too long for an unsure thing.

Here's Hutch being introduced to one of the pups today.


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## Lyn Chen (Jun 19, 2006)

I kind of want to experiment with a DDR dog myself, but I don't really know where to start. (They're soooooooo pretty though...) Liking some west lines a LOT kinda puts me on the fence there. 

Cute pups.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote:

Curious - Do you see any difference in his jumping ability, with straight hind legs like that?

Interesting. I guess that no question is a stupid question, but..............close.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote:
> 
> Curious - Do you see any difference in his jumping ability, with straight hind legs like that?
> 
> Interesting. I guess that no question is a stupid question, but..............close.


Only if he doesn't have strong, bouncy toes to make up for the straight legs. :mrgreen:


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

Actually, I stepped on and broke one of his toes some months back, a hind leg weight bearing toe. Clean break in half, and I was pretty concerned how it would affect him long term. After a quick yelp, he still kept coming at me like a banshee for the tug, so I thought nothing was wrong. Another day before I noticed any limping compensating. We put a cast on and it took 48 hours for him to escape. A second cast didn't even last 24 hours.

So, I let it be and just made sure he didn't get too active for a while. Right now I let him run all he wants (we have a large soft-earth arena) and we're focusing on obedience training. Just no jumps or A-frame until mid-July I figure, about the six month mark from the injury.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Darryl: I remember reading a post about a pup with a broken toe, but can't remember if it was you or even if it was workingdogforum.com that I read it on. Anyway, I'm sorry about his toe but not surprised it didn't slow him down in the least. Pretty funny how when people have looked at the San Jose SS tapes some have actually talked about how it was the helpers fault the dogs came off or didn't engage because he stepped on a toe. Any dog worth his salt takes it in stride and if anything, just bites harder.


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

Aye, he's a salty dog! Yeah, I made some inquiries a few months back on the database. I hadn't known what to expect, and was hoping for experienced advice from a working handler's perspective.


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

Still growing, but his front is catching up with his back a bit


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## Chase Mika (May 2, 2008)

Very nice looking dog! My police dog has some of the same in his pedigree and I couldn't be happier with him. He's also got more of a straight back, and in fact most of the police dogs I'm around also have straighter backs. The issue always confuses me a little, because I've seen people "stacking" (I think it's called) their dogs for photos. If done in the right way, the dog appears more angulated to me than it would otherwise. I've seen dogs that when standing normal have straight backs, but appear angulated if set up "right" for a photo shoot. I'm usually very surprised when I see a dog that appears angulated just when standing normal - guess I haven't seen many in SchH or police work. 

Congrats on finding your perfect dog! He's very handsome


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Yes, it's a lot to do with the stack. OK, at the risk of being embarrassed by possible comparisions of my wiley coyote looking GSD (at a year) to handsome Hutch, here is an example of a working line dog being stacked by a german showline person. You can see, not much in the way of angulation. I am happy to say he can jump just fine, though! :


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

A few more today  The last one cracks me up.


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

obviously, there's some sort of "pointer" back in his bloodlines....tried him on pheasant yet???


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

I hope he can hold him till I get my shotgun :mrgreen:


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

He was poised like that long enough to get a few more shots off, but I was laughing too hard


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## Lynsey Fuegner (Apr 11, 2007)

he looks great! and I applaud you for getting such great shots! I get the camera out and Maus is convinced it is a toy and rushes as fast as he can get into fuss position, so I have quit e few pics looking down at him. :roll:


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

It's not me, it's him. I get the same trouble with alot of dogs too, especially young ones. The body-language you project is something you learn to be very aware of, though. If you get them in good position, and you lower yourself to a crouch or semi-crouch for a better vantage angle, many dogs will take that as a cue to come to you. Sometimes not "squaring off" toward them when you drop helps.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

That dog is **** ugly, I have some room for a rescue at my house............


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> That dog is **** ugly, I have some room for a rescue at my house............


 
isn't it tho???? if jeff's out of room, i can help out...


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

Here's a few more recent pics.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Good looking dog. be proud.......


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## Alegria Cebreco (Jul 25, 2007)

I love this dog!!! \\/


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## Ian Forbes (Oct 13, 2006)

You should never judge a working dog on looks, but......that is a great looking dog!


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

I'm hoping to get a dedicated video camera for Christmas, and finally be able to show him off in action!


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)




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## James Degale (Jan 9, 2009)

How old is he in the photo just there? He's really bodied out nicely.

With Tiekerhook dogs once you sort out self control, and I don't mean by compulsion, but by patience and consistency you got yourself a winner. Love them. Plus they are real dogs. In the UK, we've got Max's brother Manus and a few others too.


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

He's a year and 7mo.s right now, and perhaps a tad overweight. I've noticed him really filling out the last couple months.

Know anything about that Manus litter?


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

daryl, he gets better-looking every month. how is his temperment, ie, is he easy to train, tough, etc? maybe one day i'll own a Tiekerhook dog. maybe....


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

Extreeeemly easy to train! Everything he's learned was incredibly easy for him. Always attentive, really tries to get in my head, very responsive, never hesitates, never shuts down. Runs fast, bites hard and full, I couldn't say enough great things about him. My perfect gsd.


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

doesn't get any better than that


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## Terry Fisk (Jul 26, 2007)

That lolling tongue must be a Tiekerhook thing... Our Tiekerhook boy has that same look!


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

Looks like dad's hangs to the right.;-)


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## Emilio Rodriguez (Jan 16, 2009)

Beautiful dogs, congrats.


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## Terry Fisk (Jul 26, 2007)

Daryl Ehret said:


> Looks like dad's hangs to the right.;-)


 Looks like Hutch and Arcas both got Max's tongue.. amongst other things =D> Great dogs, wish Arcas were a bit more biddable like Hutch though. Looks like you are doing great with him, good luck :-D


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

Thanks, I really appreciate the biddable part, coupled with the tenacious drive, making it all so easy for me. My dog makes me appear a better handler than I actually am.

At the time, there was another litter that was 2-2 on Nick, with possiblly harder pups, perhaps less biddable (just my intuition speaking). I preferred Koos make the decision, but secretly hoping for what in the end, he ultimately chose anyway.

I still wouldn't mind having another Tiekerhook dog someday, linebred on Nick. _Or a whole litter of 'em!_


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## Drew Peirce (Nov 16, 2006)

Son of shaquira vom tiekerhook, you'll be hearing more about him in the near future, they dont make'em like this anymore>


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

A couple new ones from yesterday.


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

OK, just one more


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

OK, maybe he won't grow into those rear legs.


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

Terrasita (and others):

Now that Nickie's busy with her litter, I've decided to use Hutch as my second dog for herding lessons for a while. We did the herding instinct test a few weeks back, and he brings all his usual drive to the situation. It's nice to see how different dogs react differently while learning this, but I may be having some conflict with all the schutzhund training I've put on him.

Today, was just simply teaching directions around a group of tightly penned sheep. On the "go by", clockwise direction, it went pretty well, and I could establish a bit of distance between us "out" off of a heeling position. The "away" direction was much more difficult, as he wants to heel tightly to my left, rather than on the right and outside of me, further from the sheep.

This, in turn, leads to some frustration on his part, because it's new and he's not understanding what he's doing wrong. Since no bite reward was forthcoming, he nipped at my legs a few times in his frustration. He can be fine with verbal praise only, but unused to encouragement for relaxed behavior. Only on the SchH longdown, where he's not really "doing" anything but watching me intently for his release.

I'm sure we'll get it in time, but if there's a helpful tip or two to try, I'd like to know. He's a real quick learner. I spent maybe all of 40 minutes to teach him to go out and run blinds, and to the level I've seen others spend several weeks on.

Despite his strong gusto for the livestock in his HIT, he could barely get much attention off of me and onto the sheep in today's excercise. As if it were a SchH group heeling routine.

I'm wondering if a flirt pole to teach directions by/away would be a good idea, kind of like lunging a horse, while anchoring it with the verbal cue. Or, is that too escalated?

BTW, I hate using the word "out" in a different context than I'm used to.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

In herding I use a "Move off" instead of "Out".
To much of what I've seen in herding is lots of compulsion to get compliance from the dog. 
I'm going at it in the same way I did AKC obedience and Schutzhund.
Thunder's training, AKC, Schutzhund and herding has been reward based with markers. Granted, the sheep are more distraction then he's ever seen but it is solid and is transfering well.
I've seen herding dogs that were nothing more then mechanical machines because of more attention on the handler then the stock.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Daryl Ehret said:


> Terrasita (and others):
> 
> 
> Today, was just simply teaching directions around a group of tightly penned sheep. On the "go by", clockwise direction, it went pretty well, and I could establish a bit of distance between us "out" off of a heeling position. The "away" direction was much more difficult, as he wants to heel tightly to my left, rather than on the right and outside of me, further from the sheep.
> ...


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Daryl, 
One thing I do before working the dog is to just walk around the field on a loose harness. No commands! When Thunder gets out ahead of me I just stop and back up a bit. he's learned not to get ahead of me but still knows is nothing formal (no commands and no attention heeling). He doesn't follow me like I see a lot of the BC herders do but he has learned to stay with me without commands and and any need for eye contact as in schutzhund heeling.
This helps to relax him and me both. Just a casual walk in the field.
As Terrasita said "If he's working off contained stock, there is no job".
Thunder doesn't pay a huge amount of attention when the sheep are penned and he's outside. If they are trying to put pressure on him (stareing, stomping at the fence) he will move up to the fence just to let them know he's not buying their pressure but if they just move off with no running, he doesn't go into a strong prey and want to chase. I first saw this when he parted a group of heifers that were holding their ground and telling us to "go around". He walked, almost stalked up to them, nose to nose and they happily moved off. The BC folks call it "eye". I call it "frickin awesome"! :grin: 
Another calming, control thnig Terrasita has taught me is to "calmly" put him on a "platz" at every gate you go through. When the gate is opened, he then is told to "here platz" with my finger pointing to the ground inside the gate. 
He's learning this routine quickly and it's helped his control on our way to the pens and field.


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> As Terrasita said "If he's working off contained stock, there is no job".


That's part of it, I suppose. Like I said, was his first day since the HIT a few weeks earlier _(where he got to interact with the sheep), _and just teaching directions this last session. About the _"percieving it as a heeling excercise"_, I'm sure you're right on there as well. I've never shown videos of him except with puppies, but if you take a look at this one I shot today, he's got lot's of drive and focus on me. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEPL8TebA5o

I'm starting to second guess the wisdom of persuing this particular training with him, when I have other dogs to choose from. With the obedience I've put on him, do you think I might ultimately spoil that, or have too much training conflict, by crosstraining in different venues? BTW, don't judge the handler too harshly (tripping over his dog), the intent of the video is to exhibit the dog.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Question (NOT a criticism).
How is his work without the ball present and/or without corrections? Could he do a complete SchH pattern without? In the video he KNOWS you have the ball and it's in plain sight.
Reason I ask is that to many folks look at their dog as being in compliance, yet don't have the same thing when it's hidden and the exercises are chained together.
The drive with sheep in the pic will go off the top UNLESS the dog feels to much pressure from you OR untill he believs a reward is comming.
Terrasita?


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

I don't have to have a toy at all (even hidden) for heeling attention like that. The reason I had the ball at all, was to reward for the recall, ending in a "sit", instead of his legs through my gut. Just a detail we needed to work on.

That was the problem, the other day. We play a lot of little excercises in the house too, focus-intense ones. So with the sheep not doing much anything, and the fact that I was giving him instructions, he seemed to think we were doing some new variance on an obedience routine.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Sounds good!
If his HIT was fine I think he'll come aroound as soon as he knows he's allowed.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Okay, there's a lot going on here.

#1 You don't have a problem with a conflict between obedience and herding, per se. Remember Thunder is a Sch III & CDX and in training for a UD. Dogs understand context. I intentionally didn't do a lot stock work with my young dog Khaiba because I wanted the obedience ingrained so he had over a year of marker trained obedience. When he hit the fear period, I noticed he was offering obedience behaviors in the stock pen. When the fear period started to resolve, out went the obedience except for the dynamite platz in motion and he had all his focus on the stock. Traditionally, herders hate a lot of obedience on a dog because they stop paying attention to stock and watching the handler. My theory on this was you would have to know when to use the obedience and when NOT. Second, you have to question the dog's drive for stock if he doesn't turn loose the obedience. 

#2 Is Val helping you or are you working on your own? I do a lot of drop pen work with my overdrive and somewhat reactive corgi Khaldi. My bouv really won't work off drop pens--no job. When I'm doing a drop pen, I release the ducks about every third. It may be a tad early for drop pen work. It sounds like the dog was confused as to what he was supposed to do and then he decided to stick with what he knows. When in doubt, heel position pays. My obedience dog works with the same attention and was born focused on me. While his littermates wrestled around in the pen and he would sit in the middle of the x-pen and folow my movements. On stock, he is attentive to the stock. With the stock penned, you haven't given him a job to do. I would also guess that somewhere there were some sort of corrections regarding his physical actions even if it was just "no." Once you tell them they can't use instinct then they interpret this as they are not supposed to work at all. I often explain that a corgi thinks he has three tools--speed, bark, bite and in that order. Then the handler comes along and says a trial dog is on dangerous ground for using either of these. Corgi says "fine, you work them, or screw you, would you go to work without your tools??? So before you take away all the tools, show doggie that an alternative tool can get the job done. Next, dogs get off on recognizable jobs. 

There's no reason Hutch can't do the work. You just have to know how to put him to his stock and when and where to use the obedience. Rome was not built in a day. We spent several sessions coming up with a working formula for Thunder. You have to experiment a little and see how he perceives things. There tends to be tendency to rush for getting control of the dog. Meanwhile, the dog never learned to control the stock. 

Did you do any video of Hutch's instinct test?

Terrasita


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

Thanks for such great explanations. Yes, Val is working with me, but just agreed to this Wednesday, so we haven't discussed it a whole lot yet. The HIT wasn't videod, but he was definitely (overly) interested, but easily retained control, and I made a point to not try to overcorrect. Seems the important things to work with at first, are to allow him a sense of the amount of pressure he easily transmits to the sheep (we'll probably do goats in a large pen, next time), and his need to be on my left side focusing on me.


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

Everything went really well on Wed. training, he learned to focus less on me, and managed to take instruction really well controlling his pressure on the sheep and maintaining distance on the outside of me in both directions. Ozzy did a fabulous job as well, and I was proud of both m'boys.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Fantastic! Keep us informed!


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Awesome Daryl, I'm so thrilled to see more dogs out of the working lines working livestock. You have now had out Nickie, Ozzy and Hutch. Please keep sending the updates and maybe when I have a work trip in CO, I can arrange to meet them.


Terrasita


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

Well these lines definitely seem different than what I imagine is the norm in some respects, but still workable.

One thing faced, is that the workinglines I've more recently selected for and favored are those with a strong natural focus for the handler, because that works so well for schutzhund and the foundation necessary for that venue. Hutch and Nickie are this way. In tune with my movements, eyes primarily on me. A different approach than herding.

I believe that some of the dogs I've had years back would have been easier applied in herding, while although very obedient, were quite able to not so directly and intently focus on just the handler. Though, they weren't much fun in schutzhund.

Ozzy is perhaps somewhere in the middle. His anxious mind can go all over, being a 10 month overgrown pup, but he can focus intently when he tries, and he tries to behave as I would want.

Also, a dog with strong reactive drives, that generally responds quickly and intensely at most opportunities, must become more sensitive to the pressures they are transferring to the stock. To be able to adjust themselves, tone it down a bit. Like how my cats carefully monitor their body language around whatever dog who's locked their attention on them, with no sudden and bold movements. Nickie's "sense" for it was about right from the get go, while Hutch and Ozzy are catching on.

I've only one other dog at this time, Nickie's dam, who I suppose would be just about the right balance in both respects above.


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)




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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

More "nonworking" photos recently taken (sigh).


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

We haven't done much herding here with all the heat and humidity.......but I have thourghly brushed both GSDs to get out the last of that spring molting. :grin: :wink:


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## Marina Schmidt (Jun 11, 2009)

What an AWESOME K9!!!


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

As I scrolled down the pictures, admiring the dog, I couldn't help noticing the tufts sticking up but being unusually demure this morning, kept my trap shut until I saw Bob's comments.

I'm still laughing..........

But, a good looking dog is a good looking dog..........sigh!!


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

Yeah, I could have done a better job brushing him. We were on an unexpected trip to Montana, and I left the furminator brush behind in my haste. About half of those were just after removing a few handfuls with a normal wire brush. But I'm honestly not very good about brushing my dogs thouroughly. These, from the other night show a touch improvement.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Looking a lot better!
Just a bit of teasing about the brushing. I do it 3-4 times a week but it's as much about my relaxation as it is for the dogs. ;-)
I actually like the steel comb better then the Furminator. That's pretty much ussless with my long hair if I want to really get deep down in his coat.


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## Anna Kasho (Jan 16, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> Looking a lot better!
> Just a bit of teasing about the brushing. I do it 3-4 times a week but it's as much about my relaxation as it is for the dogs. ;-)
> I actually like the steel comb better then the Furminator. That's pretty much ussless with my long hair if I want to really get deep down in his coat.


 
How I learned to brush out long hair dogs in grooming:

Start at the base of the tail.
Fold hair forward with one hand.
Brush with the other hand in the direction the hair is supposed to lay, gradually pulling it out from under your hand, working from rear to front on the dog and opening the hair to the skin. 

Repeat for each leg, working from bottom to top.

This way you part the coat and get all the way down to the skin, no problem using a furminator...


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Thanks Anna!
I generally do it that way but another "dislike" I have with the Furminator is that it doesn't "hold" the undercoat but just lets it drop. With any wind at all my small back yard looks like a sheep pen in a matter of mins. 
The steel comb holds on to it till I pull it off and put it in the trash can.
Now, if I have an open field on a windy day, it's great! :grin:


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

And here I was admiring how great he was with the pups. A nice cool bath helps loosen the tufts. Little bit sure worked hard forthe prize stick and thought she had it. I thought it was funny how he doubled back just to show her she hadn't really won. She took it all in stride though. 

Terrasita


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

The picture with the pup is priceless!

What size is Hutch?


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

I can't ever seem to remember his height, but medium sized. He's within the 3" range of standard, though. On weight, he was 84 lbs. when last weighed at the vets (I think in March). He's been looking a slight overfed this year, despite a 1/2 lb. decrease in feeding since winter. He looks too small to be that heavy, but then a large majority of dogs truly are oversized I think.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I wasn't thinking he looked fat but it's hard to tell how large / small a dog is from a photo. He has a good head and looks similar to my older GSD who is 65 cm and around 43 kilos. (Your turn to convert!). The younger is 65 cm but only 35-36 kilos. 65 cm is the limit for GSD dogs.

Neither are fat but the older is big boned (truly) and a lot of muscle strength.

I went into the chemist to buy charcoal tablets for the heavyweight and she asked me if they were for me and I said no, for the dog. She had to go and check with her superior and came back and asked what size was the dog. 43 kilos I replied. No, she said, I mean SIZE, a tiny poodle or a retriever. 

I did get the tablets in the end though.


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

You can bookmark or hotlink these...

Inches/cm Conversion
Kg/lbs Conversion

It's funny how some dogs are significantly heavier, despite the appearance of having less volume to them. Like my Ozzy, who nearly looks too skinny, is already near the upper limit in weight being very "solid", and not yet a year old, 'til July 12th.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Thanks for the conversion table!

Both mine are 65 cm so miss out on the standard of "dogs 60 - 65 cm / 30 - 40 kgs.

One is too light, the other too heavy but each suits me in his own way! One's like a Mali and the other a Rottweiler with greased shoes!

I think you once said that a castrated GSD dog was long-legged and slim of build. Apart from your findings, we see a lot of dogs, not castrated, with this build. Fasanerie dogs, we have two in our club are lightly built, long-legged dogs, just to mention one kennel. albeit, the most important at the moment, has just produced the 3rd litter under the RSV-2000 club.


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## milder batmusen (Jun 1, 2009)

Daryl Ehret said:


> A few more today  The last one cracks me up.



I think this dog i beutiful straight back 

and of course its a big with the sloped backs and angulation in the GSD it is not healthy and its surely not good for a working dog but I think it is slihard to find a dog who does not have the slightly angulated legs and sloped back 

You see more more the working lines more angulated than just for about 10 years ago what a shame that the breeders breed their dogs more more like the showlines to standard


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## Lynn Cheffins (Jul 11, 2006)

Gorgeous boy there - he seems to have a really nice, functional build.
Much nicer feet and pasterns than I have seen on some GSD on which some seem to have very flat,loose feet and really long, sloppy pasterns.
I like the compact looking GSD better than the "loose-limbed" looking dogs.


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## milder batmusen (Jun 1, 2009)

Lynn Cheffins said:


> Gorgeous boy there - he seems to have a really nice, functional build.
> Much nicer feet and pasterns than I have seen on some GSD on which some seem to have very flat,loose feet and really long, sloppy pasterns.
> *I like the compact looking GSD better than the "loose-limbed" looking dogs.*


*
* 

I agree\\/


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

I've never understood the "supposed" benefits to conformation that ideally lends to the "flying trot" for endurance. Breeding for that extreme angulation quickly compromises other aspects for work, for power, speed, agility, and quite likely hip health, which might _also be required for the same work_. I'm not so knowledgeable of horse conformation either really, but I understand a shorter pastern helps lend to a cutting horse's speed and ability to quickly switch directions for cutting livestock.

The character and temperament should be the first determinants of suitability for a given type of work, and that begins with aspects such as willing obedience and eagerness to perform the job, ability to remain composed under distraction, or to work independantly of the handler's guidance if the work necessitates. And why doesn't emphasis for the "flying trot" apply to other herding breeds that are used more frequently for that type work than the gsd is? Because different conformations lead to differing "styles" of work. Why is it assumed that the conformation standard is "correct" or if so, even interpreted properly by the conformation experts?

Anyway, I know that subject is beat to death in the breed, and hardly anyone will ever change their opinions from whichever line of thought they belong to. But as a general rule we should all agree, that overselection to "extremes" will always bring about compromises.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Daryl:

The 90 degree balanced angulation front to back is there for a working reason. The GSD is designed to trot all day in his graze/tending work. Angulation [including the pastern] has been said to assist in shock absorbancy so to speak. None of the standards mention extreme. What's missing in a lot of the extreme dogs is sound musculature and ligamentation. Also, the stifle is too long for efficiency. The power in the rear transmission/follow through actually comes from a correct croup as opposed to adding more length to the stifle. The balanced angulation also assumes a dog that is strong and correct coming and going. The straighter the dog is in angle, the more susceptible he is to injury. Straight rears in a performance dog has a tendency to contribute to cruciate or other knee type injuries. Even if the dog is moderate, as long as he is balanced he is efficient. I hate seeing the extremist as being identified with conformation. Extreme is incorrect. Having a working mind with no structure can cause you just as many problems. Dogs with inferior structure break down sooner. The herding/stock dog hits his prime about Age 5. Even von Stephanitz said you could put obedience on a dog in a couple of months but the education and development of the herding dog, takes years. Last thing you need is the body starting to go when the dog hits his full mental maturity and capabilty. 

When you see a GSD open up in a pasture with a flock of sheep and you see how effortless that trot is, then you understand it. Its designed to go all day and not tire the dog.

Terrasita


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: I've never understood the "supposed" benefits to conformation that ideally lends to the "flying trot" for endurance.

It is all bullshit. No one knows anymore what the **** they were talking about when they wrote this, as no one works their dogs all day long to even begin to tell us what REALLY works.

Then you need to take into consideration, that for every example of "working" or "show" there will be an example of something different that works just fine.

I have had a lot of dogs over the years, my old GSD Axel is, other than the coondogs, the run the other dog into the ground champion of the world. He had all the angulation and whatnot that the show creeps love so much.

Bottom line, it is the heart of the dog that makes it fly, not some crappy look or the other.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Terrasita: Isn't it true that HGH herding style requires dogs who can "trot all day", BUT it's NOT that flying trot, it's a normal ground covering supported trot? It is my understanding that in fact breeding specifically for that flying trot so coveted by the show ring, makes dogs so over angulated and loose ligamented, they CAN'T do the normal supported trot (or anything else) for any period of time.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Yes, Susan, that's correct. A lot of what you see in the show ring is wrong. Sloppy egg beater rears with overly long lower stifles, locked hocks and roached backs are wrong. That term flying trot can be misused. If you have a dog that is truly balanced from front to rear with a good back, there will be a period of suspension where all four feet are off the ground. GSDs aren't the only ones that have it. Most of the time, if not all, when you have those over done rears, the dogs aren't balanced. A lot of times they have straighter fronts. I have instinct tested the extreme rears and in a 100 x 100, they couldn't keep up with the sheep after five minutes. What's correct gets completely lost because everyone uses conformation as equating to some of the awful stuff they see in the show ring. If you want to see some awesome structure, look at some of the DDR and Czech line dogs. They have managed to maintain what is supposed to be correct.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

And from WG lines, Kirschental for correct structure?


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Actually I do and have worked dogs all day. That day can be 10-12 hours of moving and sorting stock and in all kinds of temperatures. Yes heart and drive will allow a dog to out move his structure, but only for so long. Structural faults make the dogs more susceptible to injury. If I kept the work I do with the dogs limited to training for arena trials where the maximum is probably 200 x 400, it might not come up that much. However, I spent the first 8 or 9 years training dogs to work a 40 acre farm through all phases of the work with all types of stock. The dogs needed to gather from a 6 and 9 acre pasture, move sheep or cattle from pasture to pasture, hold to doctor sheep, chute work, you name it. My GSD bitch also set stock for trials. The day began with bringing in the flock at 6:30, sorting and setting throughout the trial day in the pens and ended with the feeding chores at night. The trot is the most efficient on stock in terms of effect on the stock and the amount of ground the dog can cover with the least negative effect on the dog's body. Again, ultimately you want balance front to rear with a good back, tight feet w/ arched toes and good pasterns.

Someone asked if there was a working reason for structure. There is. This has nothing to do with what you see typically in the American specialty ring and some of that oversized overangulated roached back stuff I've seen in the imports.

Terrasita


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Interestingly enough, in reading this thread I went back and referred to Linda Shaw's Illustrated GSD
http://www.shawlein.com/The_Standard/13_Breed_Type/Breed_Types.html (I KNOW it is not the standard, but she makes the standard understandable to pinheads such as myself). Anyway, one thing she said that I think was very interesting is the standard was written not as an exact blueprint, but rather establishes the parameters for the breed, which allows for breeders to breed for different but specific purposes. 

I think probably we would all agree that what really ****s up the apple cart is judges and show breeders who reward and breed for these crazy exaggerations that serve no true utility.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

As for Kirschental and structure, I wouldn't say yes, necessarily. I am not a fan of the WG show line dogs. If I were going for structure, I like what I've seen as a whole w/the DDR and Czech dogs. There was a dog Eicke von Hochburg? that I believe is WG that caught my eye so there are exceptions. But again, he's not showline. The Fullers bred their working HGH females to WG showline males. If you go back through some of the pedigrees, you'll see that the older HGH bitches were different. The newer stuff is actually being imported here to infuse into some of the working stuff, but its built like WG show line stuff not the older HGH bitches. As for the parameters and room to breed for a specific purpose, that has never been the point of the GSD breed standard that I know of. The standards that have anything goes are more like the BC. You'll see a huge variance in what its supposed to look like in terms of height weight build, coat, ears. Its so open ended, you know they don't care what it looks like. 

I've had dogs out of both camps and none of them had sloppy rear angulation. That's a selection issue. If you want the dog to work at ANYTHING, you won't select the puppy with the sloppy rear. The mental package and health come first. Good basic working structure is just that. Lately, I've found the better mental and structural packages in the working line dogs.

Terrasita


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

"A German Shepherd Dog that has anatomical errors,
overangulation, incorrect reach, or small long paws, is not capable of working all day long in the field. Herding dogs must also be extremely healthy. Having to work from early morning to late at night, summer or winter, they cannot be sensative. Obviously, healthy hips and elbows are a necessity." Karl Fuller http://www.kirschenbach.de/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=13&Itemid=26

Looks like his structural type changed with his breeding to Uran Wildsteiger Land.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

For followinig stock around a pasture I'll take Thunder's working line build AND "moderate HD" rear any day of the week over that wobbly crap.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Okay, 40 lashes with my bamboo stick. We do not "follow stock" around the pasture.[-X Thunder is BALANCED front to rear with a good back, good feet and pasterns. He also has great muscle which is what I'm hoping will keep the the HD at bay.

Terrasita


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

For myself, I really appreciate the German, Dutch, Belgian working lines of GSDs. Lots of drive, not too big, very agile, but of course, my thing is schutzhund not herding. 

Another point to consider is look at dogs up until the late 70s and the Weinerau influence. Many of the top BSZS competitors were also top BSP competitiors. When I look at the dogs in the BSZS, prior to the late 70s, these dogs look JUST like the working line dogs of today, same angles, everything. They look NOTHING like the SV show lines today. 

The standard did not change - so why did the modern show line GSD? It is not the working lines that have changed.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

:-# Yes mam! 8-[ 8-[


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Fad, politics, money and that wonderful "more is better." I've forgotten a lot of this stuff but was it the Martin brothers that brought in that stallion roached back?

Terrasita


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

Terrasita,

I like Eick vd Berger Hochberg quite a bit myself, for his temperament and ability, and what few offspring I'm aware of that he's produced. But I've also thought him to be a bit oversized, and since I don't care for black&tan's, not payed a lot of attention to him. There was a daughter of his at my old schH club, who was a pretty good worker, and not too large.

But Eick, not really being a Czech or DDR dog at all, I'm wondering what examples you'd use from those lines that you favor? I have a lot to learn about structure, but understand that the front and rear should harmoniously work together.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Fad, politics, money and that wonderful "more is better." I've forgotten a lot of this stuff but was it the Martin brothers that brought in that stallion roached back?
> 
> Terrasita


I think so! There was even a joke about making dog crates with raised roofs to accommodate the roached backs!


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Daryl:

Eick was the sire of a puppy I REALLY liked and the dam was really nice to. Together they made a very typey pair. It was the first time looking at pictures, I really liked the way both the sire and dam were put together. As you said, both looked a tad large but pictures can be deceiving. When I'm talking about this stuff, its what I like as ideal. Eick made me reconsider some of my notions about the WG dogs. My other issue about WG dogs is the prey/play monster and I'm still sorting that out. When I started researching all this I was amazed at how many different variations on the theme there were in GSDs so I decided that I needed to take the time and sort through the different dogs/lines and get a feel for what made them different. The most troubling thing I ran into is how few dogs are OFAd in working line dogs. I'm not that committed to paper and ultimately, what the puppy in front of me says to me will win out. The observation on the Czech & DDR dogs is just that. When I was looking at those, they generally had a harmonious balanced structure. DDR dogs have gorgeous heads and that pretty sable and they usually have good feet/pasterns which is a real problem in the working and show lines. Hare feet is becoming more the norm. But really what has most concerned me is the dogs mentally and health.

Terrasita


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

When you said you were troubled by how many WG working lines are not OFA'ed did you mean "a" stamped? Still, I am confused because most of the WG working line breeding stock IS "a" stamped, they have to be in order to qualify for breed survey.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

No, I mean OFA--not A stamp. Early on, waaay too many dogs that were A Normal were OFA dysplastic. I don't have a lot of faith in A stamp. I thought it was interesting when they came up with the ZW acknowledging there were issues with the system. Furthermore, there is the issue of noch-zuchs bred into the blood lines. The Germans/SV just recently started x-raying elbows. It seems that breeders over here continue to rely on A stamp and don't OFA the dogs over here that I can tell. There are exceptions, but not many. For the dogs we've bought or bred, I've been able to rely on the OFA system and since strictly requiring it, we haven't had a dysplastic dog since. Its a polygenic trait and there is always the risk but it becomes less of a gamble.

Terrasita


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

I am not so sure OFA is any better than "a" stamp program. The down fall of both programs are the numbers of xrays not submitted, and in the case of OFA, the numbers of dogs where the owner does not allow them to publish bad results. I would not throw the baby out with the bath water regarding the ZWs. Breeding to very low numbers, in combination with 5 and more generations of normals is paying off. Now the SV has a new policy where they do not charge for failed hips/elbows, in the hopes this will encourage more people to submit regardless, and therefore the statistical information will more correctly reflect the incidences of dysplasia. 

Early on unfortunately, many of the dogs imported by the USA were shitters & cripples, the result of too many Americans who arrogantly thought having a lot of money to fling at the Germans would be enough to get them to sell their best dogs. But why would people sell their best dogs when it seems the people flinging the cash didn't know anything about the dogs and were only too happy to pay big bucks for crap? :wink:

Luckily this is the case less and less. More and more Americans actually know how to read pink papers or at least have become savvy enough to befriend those that do.


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

Some more birthday pics!


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## Gary Garner (Jun 30, 2007)

He's a fine looking dog... I like him a lot.

How have your views of him changed, as he's got older?


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

None that I can think of. He's very much "my" ideal dog. And I was completely thrilled at how each of his three progeny have turned out. I know it was only three, and they might not all be as spectacular next time, or with a different female. But the signs are really good, that he can produce himself very well.


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

My mom took a couple photo's herself, which turned out really nice compared to my crappy ole camera.


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## Robert Blok (Jul 26, 2006)

Daryl Ehret said:


> None that I can think of. He's very much "my" ideal dog. And I was completely thrilled at how each of his three progeny have turned out. I know it was only three, and they might not all be as spectacular next time, or with a different female. But the signs are really good, that he can produce himself very well.


Hi Daryl, 
Your pup really turned out nice. I know Max (spend time with him at Koos's place) and I see a lot of him in Boo. Did you buy him in the States or Europe? If he is anything like Max, you'll have to be firm and on your mark all the time.
Robert


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

He was whelped in Europe, but I did not go to see him as a pup, if that's what you mean. I had strong confidence that Koos would not disappoint. I was near ready to leave the breed, and told him afterwards that he restored my faith.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Speaking of progeny, whats up with the babies?



Terrasita


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

Basically, this was my "P" litter, and named them all accordingly so (first time I've done this) as Pike, Pia, and Pitch. They spent their 6th to 7th week on my emergency trip to MT, so they got lots of exposure to different homes, people, cats, and dogs. Lots of playtime with toys, bottles, cans, staircases, with periodic crate training, sits and downs with food, leash training, flirt pole and more. They handled the 9 hour road trip each way beautifully, developing their "sea-legs" and causing much mischief in the cab of my truck, uncrated with Boo. Only one "accident" occuring in the last half hour of the trip. They thoroughly have enjoyed themselves, and are a very active bunch.

I only have one recent video at the moment, of Pitch and Pia roughousing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B5uLKOtN1qQ

I've decided to keep Pitch for myself.
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/612393.html

Pike is going to Texas and Pia is possibly going to Belgium.


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)




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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

OK, I'm still not sure about Pia. There's a semi-qualified pet home in MN, but I'm holding out for a workinghome for this girl, she's such a busy body.


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

An updated picture of m'boy!


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## Sue Miller (Jul 21, 2009)

Hey Daryl--what was Hutch like at 10-months-old? Did he challenge you? Does he live in the house? How did he turn out? 

Quinn starts his e-collar training tomorrow. I've had a few fights (real fights) with him last week. The little shrimp (he's about 65 lbs now) doesn't want to listen anymore & will fight me to get his way. Lucky I'm strong (kinda) even though I don't like the black & blues.


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## Lynn Cheffins (Jul 11, 2006)

My, how he has grown - very handsome dog!


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

Quite the opposite, this dog has never challenged me, he'd do anything I want him to, because that's what makes him happy. Don't get me totally wrong, because he can be very fearsome, but we're pretty tight. Now, on the other hand, his little boy above is becoming an annoyance to me, not always doing what I say and right away, pretty much "giving me the finger". That comes from his mother, I'm pretty sure. I've only corrected Hutch once that I can remember. It was swift prong snap for not instantly outing a tug, nothing too serious. I've not been so fortunate with his son, Pike who does not share the same level of willingness.

Hutch lives in the house, and recently (in the last week) has not been crated while I'm gone. I can get away with this in part because of his "off switch". He can do zero to 100 and back again as fast as I could ever expect, and whenever I want. He turned out to be the best dang dog I could ever ask for, or probably ever get in my lifetime. I couldn't see any job being impossible for this guy, but he's not my preferred choice for herding and tending, and I've not yet encouraged his ability to work independantly on his own to know if he would.


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## Tiffany Compton (Oct 7, 2009)

Don't you love it when you find your "once in a lifetime dog"? :grin:

Nice bone from the looks of that photo.


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## Tamara Villagomez (Nov 28, 2009)

hes gorgeous beautiful bone on him !


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