# Tie outs for working dogs



## Hunter Allred

So I want the Bart Bellon flex pole, but don't want to pay a billion dollars for it. I came upon this thing (and they actually have pics & video of dogs being worked in protection with it)
http://sureswivel.com/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=48YmRmPNo3U&feature=youtu.be

I am going to try to see if I can remove the eye bolt and put a flex pole/fishing rod blank in place to get keep the line clear of the dog like the bart bellon flex pole. 

Anyone ever made their own or some other solution for tying a dog out without the tangles?


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## Mario Fernandez

My friend told me the pole Bart uses is very similar to something you can pick up at Lowes or Home depot. It is what Electrician use to run ceiling wire...


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## Joby Becker

is 1000 lbs before breaking strong enough ???


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## Geoff Empey

Here is another similar product. http://theclaw.com/the-claw/aircraft-claw-c100.php


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## Hunter Allred

Geoff Empey said:


> Here is another similar product. http://theclaw.com/the-claw/aircraft-claw-c100.php


Thats actually pretty cool. Thanks


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## Howard Gaines III

$3.00 tent spike from Walmart...=;


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## Joby Becker

I would be careful with this idea which I am sure you will be anyhow, just saying...

once you some type of pole to the sure swivel, the force will not be coming laterally on it from the dogs, it will be coming from above, through the pole, pulling at it from a steep angle probably..

If I was going to try it, i would mount it to a larger base plate personally and secure.

I suppose for pups, young dogs, and for doing certain types of things it will work out fine though too.


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## Hunter Allred

Joby Becker said:


> I would be careful with this idea which I am sure you will be anyhow, just saying...
> 
> once you some type of pole to the sure swivel, the force will not be coming laterally on it from the dogs, it will be coming from above, through the pole, pulling at it from a steep angle probably..
> 
> If I was going to try it, i would mount it to a larger base plate personally and secure.
> 
> I suppose for pups, young dogs, and for doing certain types of things it will work out fine though too.


Oh yeah I know... I'm an engineer . If I have a pole with enough flex to it, the "real" force won't happen till the pole is flexed all the way down. As you can see from these autocad drawings, the real force will be applied laterally as designed


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## Faisal Khan

OMG, 2 engineers with Sportwaffen males! I'm EE so you can imagine what Gnash went through


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## Hunter Allred

Faisal Khan said:


> OMG, 2 engineers with Sportwaffen males! I'm EE so you can imagine what Gnash went through


You get creative with the e-collar? lol. I actually saw someone take a dogtra box, run a wire from the electrodes to a 2-finger brass knuckle thing with the actual contacts on his fingertips so he could basically correct his dog in what I can best describe as the same way the emperor shocked darth vader with force lightning in star wars.

lol I'm a systems and software engineer. I was actually on a business trip and flew directly to Nate's to pick up Jäger. Do you actually do "regular" EE stuff or did you come over into the computer world? We have lots of EE's where I work.


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## rick smith

Hunter

the anchors could work if raised

or maybe anchor a heavy deep sea fishing pole and fwiw i don't think you need full 180 degree swivel for the work you are describing unless you like to run it in circles

or go simple ... a tether ball pole slightly shorter than the people type (unless you think you and the kids might like it too)
... a bungee section might eliminate some of the heavy engineering calculations required to design it and can be removed if you need the safety of a non stretch tie out

how come no pics of the billion dollar system ????? i may win the lottery so i wanna bookmark the link


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## Hunter Allred

rick smith said:


> Hunter
> 
> the anchors could work if raised
> 
> or maybe anchor a heavy deep sea fishing pole and fwiw i don't think you need full 180 degree swivel for the work you are describing unless you like to run it in circles
> 
> or go simple ... a tether ball pole slightly shorter than the people type (unless you think you and the kids might like it too)
> ... a bungee section might eliminate some of the heavy engineering calculations required to design it and can be removed if you need the safety of a non stretch tie out
> 
> how come no pics of the billion dollar system ????? i may win the lottery so i wanna bookmark the link


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## rick smith

if that was a pic TX, but on my old computer all i got was a blue question mark :-(


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## Hunter Allred

rick smith said:


> if that was a pic TX, but on my old computer all i got was a blue question mark :-(


How about this

http://www.dogsport.be/shop-products.aspx?MARKID=2e86b687-a498-431b-9ea2-96279e9d3569


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## Joby Becker

LOL...and a fine artist 

good to know...I was thinking the tether was attached to the pole.

carry on


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## Geoff Empey

Hunter Allred said:


> Thats actually pretty cool. Thanks


I have one and just use it for a tie out in the front yard. Have hit it with the riding mower it is as tough as nails and haven't had any issue with it pulling out either.


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## Matt Vandart

Funny this should come up, I am currently in the process of making one .


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## Sue DiCero

Howard 

As with equipment, we work with the basic stuff. I have seen the Bart Bellon one prior.

A tie out is a tie out. Not fancy at all....


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## Thomas Barriano

Isn't the Bart Bellon flex pole supposed to act like a bungee and not just like a tie out?


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## Jane Jean

I saw the one Hunter had the photo of(in fact I took that pic!) at a club with many teams(pay to train) and it worked really well for all sizes of dogs. I put my 95# male on it to prove its strength before my own club decided to try to find one. Though it was used in a clay type soil, the hole that the spike goes into gets big after use, and even then, it still holds well. 
The price of the one pictured is over the top, but so far, nobody had been able to replicate it. It is one that Bart designed when he was in the US recently. Our club decided to buy one when I found out where to get it. Barts has been out of stock on his site for a couple months. 

I don't know how many are available or if they are produced often where we purchased ours, I was able to get it thru a 3rd party, luckily!
Thomas, it isn't a bungee, but does have a bit of give. The handler is the issue with this, circling the dog gets a bit dicey if you aren't paying attention.
The nice thing about this is you can move it anywhere as needed.


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## Geoff Empey

Thomas Barriano said:


> Isn't the Bart Bellon flex pole supposed to act like a bungee and not just like a tie out?


Not really a bungee, the flex pole allows you to work the dog yourself for different things without the dog getting tangled as the flex pole will adjust for distance as you move the dog in and out. I've seen videos of it used as a heeling tool though you can only turn left if your dog heels in the traditional position maybe it is for NASCAR dogs. LOL. Here is a video showing being used for heeling that a friend pointed out to me earlier today. http://youtu.be/sELxxEIoiUo


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## Faisal Khan

Our TD has one, I used it and like it. We heeled the dog in a circle with reward coming randomly from me or the helper. Keeps the line organized and not get tangled. Is it a must have? I don't think so, is it a really useful tool? yes no doubt.


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## Howard Knauf

This is not a crack at Bellon's flex pole, just an experoence....While at a vendors testing dogs we had a Mali staked out. We finished the test and was talking when we looked over and saw the dog gator rolling on the ground. The dog had somehow hooked a canine on the ring and in an effort to get loose he got really tied up. Thought for sure he had broken his canine but we got lucky and got him loose before it broke. The weirdest shit happens with dogs.


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## Hunter Allred

Howard Knauf said:


> This is not a crack at Bellon's flex pole, just an experoence....While at a vendors testing dogs we had a Mali staked out. We finished the test and was talking when we looked over and saw the dog gator rolling on the ground. The dog had somehow hooked a canine on the ring and in an effort to get loose he got really tied up. Thought for sure he had broken his canine but we got lucky and got him loose before it broke. The weirdest shit happens with dogs.


The ring of what exactly?


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## Hunter Allred

My sure swivel arrived Friday. It basically laughed at several gsds, and several Mali's, and 2 decoys. One was a police mal worked in high aggression. That thing, in sandy coastal soil, was shockingly stable. I gave it the hardest verticle tug I could and couldn't make it even consider moving. Highly impressed


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## Joby Becker

Hunter Allred said:


> My sure swivel arrived Friday. It basically laughed at several gsds, and several Mali's, and 2 decoys. One was a police mal worked in high aggression. That thing, in sandy coastal soil, was shockingly stable. I gave it the hardest verticle tug I could and couldn't make it even consider moving. Highly impressed


impressive..


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## Thomas Barriano

Geoff Empey said:


> Not really a bungee, the flex pole allows you to work the dog yourself for different things without the dog getting tangled as the flex pole will adjust for distance as you move the dog in and out. I've seen videos of it used as a heeling tool though you can only turn left if your dog heels in the traditional position maybe it is for NASCAR dogs. LOL. Here is a video showing being used for heeling that a friend pointed out to me earlier today. http://youtu.be/sELxxEIoiUo


Geoff,

Not exactly a bungee but more then a simple back tie. There is resistance and the further away from the pivot point the more tension. I wouldn't mind having one but don 't think they're worth $300


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## Howard Knauf

Hunter Allred said:


> The ring of what exactly?


 Can't exactly remember the positioning but I do recall that the dog had the end of the pole in his mouth and he was in a panic because the cable had him all tied up around the head/neck. The vendor said he had been using the rig for quite a while and had never had any issue with it.


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## Haz Othman

Curious Hunter did the dogs get their feet tangled at all? The Bellon flex pole seems to work so well because it keeps the leash out of the way. I know when I back tie the dog always seems to get tangled unless I anchor the rope nice and high.


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## Geoff Empey

Thomas Barriano said:


> Geoff,
> 
> Not exactly a bungee but more then a simple back tie. There is resistance and the further away from the pivot point the more tension. I wouldn't mind having one but don 't think they're worth $300


Yeah they are more than a simple back tie for sure but the resistance and tension is really nothing. I really wouldn't ever use it for the way I use a bungee setup as it is not the tool for that in the least bit. I do have some experience with one as I got to play with Marta's one day. It is a cool toy as Faisal says, it is a nice tool but not something that would make or break my training by owning one or not.


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## Geoff Empey

Hunter Allred said:


> My sure swivel arrived Friday. It basically laughed at several gsds, and several Mali's, and 2 decoys. One was a police mal worked in high aggression. That thing, in sandy coastal soil, was shockingly stable. I gave it the hardest verticle tug I could and couldn't make it even consider moving. Highly impressed


Have you started the ideas to modify yours for taking up the slack yet? 

I went into a few fishing stores and looked at down rigger assemblies. Down rigger rod end pulleys or sheaves seem very suitable. While I was there was looking at tent and fishing poles. I couldn't find something inexpensive or with flex. 

So I am thinking of doing a garage type door welded to a plate then bolted to the bar with the sheave that in turn bolted to the tie out swivel.


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## Thomas Barriano

Geoff Empey said:


> Have you started the ideas to modify yours for taking up the slack yet?
> 
> I went into a few fishing stores and looked at down rigger assemblies. Down rigger rod end pulleys or sheaves seem very suitable. While I was there was looking at tent and fishing poles. I couldn't find something inexpensive or with flex.
> 
> So I am thinking of doing a garage type door welded to a plate then bolted to the bar with the sheave that in turn bolted to the tie out swivel.


After all that it might be cheaper to just buy one of Barts flex poles?


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## Hunter Allred

Geoff Empey said:


> Have you started the ideas to modify yours for taking up the slack yet?
> 
> I went into a few fishing stores and looked at down rigger assemblies. Down rigger rod end pulleys or sheaves seem very suitable. While I was there was looking at tent and fishing poles. I couldn't find something inexpensive or with flex.
> 
> So I am thinking of doing a garage type door welded to a plate then bolted to the bar with the sheave that in turn bolted to the tie out swivel.


I've got a rod blank that should arrive today. The sureswivel has a 1/4 eyebolt run through the middle bearing... Just trying to figure the best mount for it


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## Hunter Allred

Thomas Barriano said:


> After all that it might be cheaper to just buy one of Barts flex poles?


I'm in $65 so far. Just need a creative mount for the pole. Totally going to get this done for under $100


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## Thomas Barriano

Hunter Allred said:


> I'm in $65 so far. Just need a creative mount for the pole. Totally going to get this done for under $100



Let me know when you're finished with the design/testing and into production


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## Geoff Empey

Thomas Barriano said:


> After all that it might be cheaper to just buy one of Barts flex poles?



Not on the least bit Thomas. I've looked at parts and like Hunter is saying I think I can make something similar for under $55-60 Cdn or $50-65 USD with exchange. Hunter like myself likes playing with gadgets I'm sure one of us will have it together before you can say "FIDO REVIERE"!! Then we can sell it to you for the same price as Bart's.  

http://www.princessauto.com/pal/Pulley-Blocks/1-1-2-in-Pulley-Block-with-Fixed-Gable/3801479.p

http://www.princessauto.com/pal/en/Cable/1-8-in-Galvanized-Cable-by-the-Foot/3800378.p

http://www.kleintools.com/catalog/fish-glow-rods/4-x-14-replacement-fish-rod

http://theclaw.com/the-claw/single-claw-c102.php


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## Thomas Barriano

Geoff

Lets see what the tinkers (you and Matt) can come up with vs
what the engineers (Hunter and Faisal) can design. You have to realize that the cost of the Bellon Flex pole includes the Bellon name and reputation


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## Matt Vandart

Lol, I am actually a mechanical engineer as it goes but I'll go on geoff's team .
By the way, so far mine has cost 26 bucks.


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## Thomas Barriano

Matt Vandart said:


> Lol, I am actually a mechanical engineer as it goes but I'll go on geoff's team .
> By the way, so far mine has cost 26 bucks.


Matt,

Given the cost of an engineering degree. I hope between the three of you, that you could design a flex pole for < $50?


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## Matt Vandart

Bwahahaha, indeed, although I heard you can buy one from eastern europe for about 50 bucks lol


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## Matt Vandart

Here is how far I have got.
The 'what u macall it's, are a caribina, a standard tie out and a shackle.
I just drilled a hole through the metal ferrule on the end of one pole and stuck a shackle through it.
This is just a test to see if the poles are gonna break and I couldn't go too mad cos it was just wedged in the top of the cooker.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9iMlb4lNSTc&feature=youtu.be


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## Thomas Barriano

Matt Vandart said:


> Bwahahaha, indeed, although I heard you can buy one from eastern europe for about 50 bucks lol


That would work, what's the URL? 
I keep checking the Dollar Tree, but nothing yet ;-)


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## Geoff Empey

Matt Vandart said:


> Here is how far I have got.
> The 'what u macall it's, are a caribina, a standard tie out and a shackle.
> I just drilled a hole through the metal ferrule on the end of one pole and stuck a shackle through it.
> This is just a test to see if the poles are gonna break and I couldn't go too mad cos it was just wedged in the top of the cooker.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9iMlb4lNSTc&feature=youtu.be


Matt what were the poles you used? I did look at some tent poles at the local outdoor store but they didn't make something with the proper amount of flex which wasn't to expensive. 

I still haven't made it to the place locally that sells those 'Klein' wire fish rods. I have high hopes that they will be able to retrofit into the 'claw' or sure swivel as they are threaded at both ends. http://www.kleintools.com/catalog/fish-glow-rods/4-x-14-replacement-fish-rod



Hunter Allred said:


> I've got a rod blank that should arrive today. The sureswivel has a 1/4 eyebolt run through the middle bearing... Just trying to figure the best mount for it



You see for me the Klein fish rod is already 1/4 so it should just go through the same hole as the sure swivel eye bolt. Then you could use 2 nuts at the other end, one as a backing lock nut then put the pulley assembly and lock it down with the second nut. The only thing I see that you might have to fabricate is the anchor point for the cable. Though by looking at the sure swivel I think you could just drill a 1/4 hole just off center and reuse the units 1/4 eye bolt to anchor the cable.


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## Faisal Khan

Make sure y'all rent a boat, cause if all else fails you can still go catch a Marlin


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## Bob Scott

The poles look to be off of a Bow Flex. They can be ordered to replace worn ones and come in weight tensions of 5, 10, 30 and 50 lb.


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## Joby Becker

Geoff Empey said:


> Matt what were the poles you used? I did look at some tent poles at the local outdoor store but they didn't make something with the proper amount of flex which wasn't to expensive.
> 
> I still haven't made it to the place locally that sells those 'Klein' wire fish rods. I have high hopes that they will be able to retrofit into the 'claw' or sure swivel as they are threaded at both ends. http://www.kleintools.com/catalog/fish-glow-rods/4-x-14-replacement-fish-rod
> 
> You see for me the Klein fish rod is already 1/4 so it should just go through the same hole as the sure swivel eye bolt. Then you could use 2 nuts at the other end, one as a backing lock nut then put the pulley assembly and lock it down with the second nut. The only thing I see that you might have to fabricate is the anchor point for the cable. Though by looking at the sure swivel I think you could just drill a 1/4 hole just off center and reuse the units 1/4 eye bolt to anchor the cable.


1/4 Klein fishrod I dont think will fit through a hole that is for 1/4 thread without drilling it out. Fish rods have collars on them, Also remember that the "threaded" parts substanitially thinner than the rods themselves. most are like 4-5 mm threads...


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## Matt Vandart

They are just some tent poles from eBay, 13mm, they are what cost 26 bucks, the rest I had kicking about the yard.


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## Hunter Allred

Thomas Barriano said:


> Matt,
> 
> Given the cost of an engineering degree. I hope between the three of you, that you could design a flex pole for < $50?


Given the cost of a degree, I'm gonna need to charge >$50 lol. I gots financial aid bills yo!


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## Hunter Allred

Faisal Khan said:


> Make sure y'all rent a boat, cause if all else fails you can still go catch a Marlin


Any marlin I can land with this pole I wouldn't admit too lol.


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## Matt Vandart

Right, i have to add another pole so that will take a couple o days to come.
I'm not gonna bother with the swivelling crap, I see no need or application for it. I'm just looking for the smooth progressive tension you can't get off a bunjeeeeeeeeee, so I am just gonna fix it to my backboard.


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## Tyree Johnson

i don't think i've seen seen barts tie out in stock ... probably better off making your own. somebody out there is paying 300 for it ....


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## Matt Vandart

Here is a link to the poles I have used. You want extruded fibreglass poles.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/271186787235?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649


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## Geoff Empey

Joby Becker said:


> 1/4 Klein fishrod I dont think will fit through a hole that is for 1/4 thread without drilling it out. Fish rods have collars on them, Also remember that the "threaded" parts substanitially thinner than the rods themselves. most are like 4-5 mm threads...


Thanks Joby,

I still think it could work though, 2 washers and a lock nut. The top extension could still work with the part on the top using a pulley attached to it by a lock pin. 

Where did you find this picture Joby?


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## Joby Becker

Geoff Empey said:


> Thanks Joby,
> 
> I still think it could work though, 2 washers and a lock nut. The top extension could still work with the part on the top using a pulley attached to it by a lock pin.
> 
> Where did you find this picture Joby?


online of course, google..

they are all real similar though I just looked at some Klein rods today, my friend in an electrician, smaller threads too.

I think it is sound idea, dependin on what the sure swivel looks like underneath and how the eyebolt is attached. might even be able to even just seat the rod in the hole if it fit nice and snug...without locking it in since the line is just sliding through the tip and not attached to the pole at all.


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## Bob Scott

Other then the ease of moving it why couldn't you use a single pole with a larger pipe/cap/swivel and ring welded to cap?
You could easily add bungie cord to give the flex to dog's line.


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## Geoff Empey

Bob Scott said:


> Other then the ease of moving it why couldn't you use a single pole with a larger pipe/cap/swivel and ring welded to cap?
> You could easily add bungie cord to give the flex to dog's line.


The idea of the flex pole vs the bungee is the flex pole will have a way better action for keeping the dog from getting tangled up in the line. That's what I found when I used Marta's flex pole. You'd use it for different things than a Bungee for a long down or heeling exercises. You can use it for bite work but I don't really like using a tie out that bangs at the end point, even if you mark it out I prefer a bungee for that.


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## Bob Scott

Geoff Empey said:


> The idea of the flex pole vs the bungee is the flex pole will have a way better action for keeping the dog from getting tangled up in the line. That's what I found when I used Marta's flex pole. You'd use it for different things than a Bungee for a long down or heeling exercises. You can use it for bite work but I don't really like using a tie out that bangs at the end point, even if you mark it out I prefer a bungee for that.



Understood but if the pole is high enough it would keep the line from getting tangled with the dog, correct?
It wouldn't "bang" at the end point either with a bungee as part of the line. 
Thoughts?


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## Geoff Empey

Bob Scott said:


> Understood but if the pole is high enough it would keep the line from getting tangled with the dog, correct?


Yes that is what the flex pole does and it adjusts to different orientations and physical attitude of the dog or exercise you are training on the fly, which a pole wouldn't unless you physically changed the contact point on your pole. 




Bob Scott said:


> It wouldn't "bang" at the end point either with a bungee as part of the line.
> Thoughts?


Yes it wouldn't bang unless you got to full stretch of the sheath of the bungee (which is failure point any ways) but you could build in a safeguard so that wouldn't happen by knowing your distance. 

Depending on the length of the flex pole you still woundn't have a lot of play. The bungee I have access to stretches up to 300% of its length before it is compromised. The only place I would put a bungee is on the anchor of the pole. Reason being if something fails anywhere on the assembly you want the bungee when it is under tension to break 'away' from dog/handler/decoy. We've had clips break under tension and it is really dangerous if you are in the way. 

So say on a 6ft flex pole I'd only put a 2 foot or less bungee doesn't really seem worth it to me to get 3-4 ft of stretch .


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## Matt Vandart

3 tent poles is too flexy, 2 is not high enough, time to get the hacksaw out I think....


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## Matt Vandart

Hunter Allred said:


> Oh yeah I know... I'm an engineer . If I have a pole with enough flex to it, the "real" force won't happen till the pole is flexed all the way down. As you can see from these autocad drawings, the real force will be applied laterally as designed


I love these pictures!

Well here is mine, er sorta working, it's a bit shit tbh, the bungee made it worse I think cos it pulls her back a bit sharpish, definately needs some kind of progressive dampener. Sali's brain tunes out when the wedge comes out, gotta work on those outs too 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JnH2vfuPAi4


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## Jane Jean

Here is another site to purchase one...


http://shop.vislor.com/dog-sport-equipment/dog-training-pole/protection-training-pole


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## Joby Becker

wow..that is it for $300+ USD?


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## Thomas Barriano

Matt Vandart said:


> Bwahahaha, indeed, although I heard you can buy one from eastern europe for about 50 bucks lol



Matt,

Still waiting for the pointer for the $50 East Euro Flex pole?
What about the Chinese can't they see the market for a cheap dog training flex pole?


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## Christopher Smith

Joby Becker said:


> wow..that is it for $300+ USD?


Yeah it's over $300. But it's worth it. When you put it in the ground it taps directly into the secret european canine energy. This energy will go up the pole,into the dog and increase your scores by 1.7 percent. 

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## Joby Becker

Christopher Smith said:


> Yeah it's over $300. But it's worth it. When you put it in the ground it taps directly into the secret european canine energy. This energy will go up the pole,into the dog and increase your scores by 1.7 percent.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


1.7 or 17%


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## Joby Becker

does anyone know how long that spike is, and what the diameter of that pole is?


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## Joby Becker

does anyone know how long that spike is, and what the diameter of that pole is?

better yet does anyone own one of these flex poles on here?


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## Joby Becker

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/82132162/FlexpoleManual.pdf


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## Matt Vandart

Thomas Barriano said:


> Matt,
> 
> Still waiting for the pointer for the $50 East Euro Flex pole?
> What about the Chinese can't they see the market for a cheap dog training flex pole?


I was talking about an engineering degree.......;-)


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## Jane Jean

Joby Becker said:


> does anyone know how long that spike is, and what the diameter of that pole is?
> 
> better yet does anyone own one of these flex poles on here?


I have the one that Hunter posted a photo of (post #12)


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## Gregory Doud

Brian Hamilton makes Bart's flex pole here in the US. I don't have contact information for him but know he is on Facebook. - Greg


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## Thomas Barriano

Gregory Doud said:


> Brian Hamilton makes Bart's flex pole here in the US. I don't have contact information for him but know he is on Facebook. - Greg



I got a reply from Brian and unfortunately he no longer makes flex poles :-(


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