# Puppy Testing For a working Dog



## Tom Dealy (Oct 9, 2011)

Hello,
I went to a Mal. Breeder to test and observe a 14 week pup for protection work. I want to say right up front that I have no experience with Malinois puppies. This is why I need everyone’s help.
The breeder set me up to view one 14 week old male puppy that she said was perfect for me and would meet all my requirements, which is a pup with high drive to work and train in protection work. That is really the extent of my requirements. 
The first question of many is that I know a pup can only be worked/trained for 3-5 minutes before you should stop. I know that no dog really can focus much longer than that. But does that 3-5 minutes start as soon as you take it out of its kennel or does it start when you ask the dog to focus on you and perform certain behaviors?
In this case, I wanted to perform the Volhard test. (I did not communicate to the breeder that was going to perform this test before I arrived. I thought this was standard for picking out a $2500 pup. This noticeable put the breeder on edge, which, this a smile and laugh, said that we didn’t have to do it. I later explained the test and described each testing point.) The breeder wouldn’t leave me alone in a room with my scorer because the breeder had one customer ruin one of their pups before. Understandable, I guess. IDK, I’ve never been around Mal. Breeders before? I also wasn’t allowed to do the restraint or touch sensitivity test because it “would ruin the pup”. Again, IDK, so help me here. I thought the Volhard test was a good starting point for picking out a pup. 
I wasn’t allowed to throw a ball for the pup because he couldn’t get it in his mouth and I would ruin his ability to retrieve because the pup would learn, from one throw, that there was no point in running after an object if it couldn’t catch it. (That’s a paraphrasing of what was said from the breeder) But then the breeder threw the ball any way and the pup ran after it. 
We spent a good 10 minutes in the room, mostly talking, and occasionally petting the pup. Absolutely no prey work at all, since the tugs were outside, except for the one throw of the ball. The pup spent most of the time walking around the room and sniffing around, and then would occasionally come over and get petted. I picked him up and put him on my shoulders (at the breeders urging to test to see how calm the pup would be, which it was) for a few seconds. That was about it. 
Then we went outside to a yard to see the prey work. With the breeder, and I want to recount this as exactly as one can, the pup did not chase the tug, bite the tug, anything with the tug – ever. Not once did the pup put his mouth on the tug toy that I can recall. The dog did look at the breeders hands in movement when the breeder was moving their hands to create prey drive. But NO biting at all. I think the dog did touch the breeders hand with its paws but that was it. This is after 3 short sessions (maybe each 15 seconds) to try and engage its prey drive. After this, the breeder and I talked with the dog doing his own thing. 
The breeder said that we exhausted our 3-5 minute window for a 14 week old pup when we were in the room at first. And that was it. 
Other things that I observed and facts/things I was told in the 30 minutes or so that I saw the pup (I also asked a lot of questions):
•	The dog ate 5 hours before I saw him
•	During almost all of the test, its tail was down, and at times, between its legs. I never observed the tail higher than horizontal. 
•	The dog appeared confident and calm in all settings
•	The dog only barked once – when outside and it saw another dog that it was staring at outside of the gate
The breeder also said that this was the last male of the litter. The breeder was also giving me a 40% discount because I am military. But this was a top pick dog of one of the breeders friends but the friend ended up picking another pup. The breeder says that I can exchange the pup if I don’t like him, but why would I do that? I want the right pup the first time! Haha. The breeder is willing to help train the pup while he is a pup for free. Then in adult hood, there would be a fee of course. The breeder seems to really stand by her “product” but I just got a bad feeling about it for some reason and need everyone’s help. 
On the things that I actually could test the pup on, it scored really well on. It investigated the room and surroundings on its own. It walked on all types of different surfaces with no problem what so ever. I could pick it up and it was totally fine with it. It came and paid attention to new people but not so much that, when ignored, it wouldn’t explore the room. When a metal pan was drop, it looked at the pan and walked over to it to investigate. But again, to be fair, the test is supposed to be done in a room that its never been to with the breeder gone. Those two conditions were never met so I don’t know if any of the tests scores are valid. 
So to recap:
1.	When does the 3-5 minute attention span start?
2.	Is buying a 14 week old, last male of the litter, for a 40% discount (for whatever the reason), too old? 
3.	The breeder had 2 other litters, I think those were 6-8 week olds – but didn’t offer for me to see any of those pups. To be fair, I didn’t ask either. But the breeder kept telling me that this pup was the one for me. Is it normal for the breeder to only recommend one pup only to evaluate?
4.	Is “tail carriage” important to evaluating a working pup?
5.	What method of picking out a working dog do you use?
6.	In your opinion, should I get the pup?
Thank you in advance for all the responses. 

Tom


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## Rashae Lamar (Feb 19, 2011)

Hey tom, what breeder did you go to and from what ive read i wouldnt buy this puppy, where are you located i might be able to recommend a couple good breeders that will allow you to test there pupps with no issues.


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## Tom Dealy (Oct 9, 2011)

Rashae,

Thanks for the reply. I'm not trying to bash any breeders online. I just want some advice and see what the community thought. I'm in the North Texas area. 

Do you know when that 3-5 minute starts and what it encompasses? 

Has anyone ever purchased a puppy without seeing it and having the breeder fly the pup to your local airport? I was thinking about getting a pup from CA, but I wouldn't see the pup in person.

Thanks.


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Tom i would be suspicious of the breeder as well sounds a little pushy although maybe they think the pup is right for you and they know what they are talking about??

i would be seriously concerned with the prey drive you described as buying a pup is a risky thing as it is and this pup sounds low in prey as i would want to see a crap load more then that at 14 weeks.

I would let people here help you find some breeders to look at im sure you will find some thing good.

Good Luck


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## Tracey Hughes (Jul 13, 2007)

The 2500 price tag is the first thing that would make me RUN from a Malinois breeder..that is a ridiculous price to pay!~

Secondly if the breeder believes some minor test will ruin the pup..RUN..

I won’t make any major judgement on the litter having not seen it first hand, but I will ask what are the breeders accomplishments? The dogs?

You would be much better off getting a dog shipped in to you from a reputable breeder with a reputation for breeding high quality dogs that have been successful in their sport(s) of choice then only going to visit Malinois breeders that are within driving distance to you, especially since you aren’t confident in knowing what you are looking at..

I have had many pups shipped to me sight unseen, the breeder knows the dogs better then we ever will, so find someone you trust, out of parents (and grandparents!!) with traits that you find agreeable in a dog, and go from there..

Good luck..


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Tom as someone that could have wrote your exact post 2 0dd years ago, i can say some alarm bells are ringing for me reading it. stick with the breeders that more than a few members here can vouch for. there are a lot of good folk here who know what's what and who's who.

the first thing you got to know the majority of breeders are crooked, stupid or both. it is an easy industry to set yourself up in, there are no real standards and no major set up costs, the only thing that is guaranteed is the level of hype and BS.

i got ripped off as a newb with a partnership litter that promised everything and couldn't even come up with a pup. wasn't the first time they did this either - collecting a bunch of deposits then going cold on the deal. 

lots of folks on another forum saw the whole thing coming (lot of them folks are here). i refused to listen and it played out just like they said it would. must admit half the partnership is a man of honour and was prepared to pay all costs out of his own pocket not through the business - i took half the money from him and told him i don't have any further problem with him, we are actually friends now.

breeders that have every excuse about seeing the parents/progeny work etc stay away from them.

my current breeder told me no deposit accepted untill i see the parents and all progeny work and talk to past customers so i did and worked all his dogs myself untill i ran out of tests - result i walked away with a nice pup and couldn't be happier.

the rule is if your new to the performance dog world then your considered fresh meat and fair game.

the breeder *has to show* the parents, progeny, past dogs, let you speak to a number of old customers be happy to sign contracts, they should also be putting you under the hammer as well and be asking you as many questions as you ask them to see if your of good enough to have one of their dogs go to.

i would expect you to go on a list for a decent breeder, spend time get to know every breeder on your short list and visit them at their homes and develop a relationship. the more you talk about it the better you will know what you want and what they might have to suit. and don't accept excuses for why they can't let you work the dogs they bred or speak to past customers.

i judge a breeder not on the famous names they got in their peds but on what they got in their back yard and how many times they had repeat sales to people.

good luck man hope you avoid the waste of time and money i did to get into it.

i will say it was worth it in eventually cause i ended up with just the dog i want, but man what a journey.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Next breeder, tell them how you want to test before hand. If they won't let you, don't go. Lots of red flags, and nothing sounded very reasonable with them.

Who put the 3-5 minute time limit? 

You should never be rash in purchasing, but being rash in NOT purchasing won't hurt you.  I wouldn't have hung around as long as you did. You may have gone to learn what you could in this case, and learned that 2+2=5, instead of 4. It isn't always valuable to hang around and ask more questions.

$2500 is way too much for a malinois, unless you are interested in telling people you paid $2500 for your dog. Don't get me wrong. $2500 is a fair price if you get a puppy that will do all you want, for the next 10 years or so. The thing is, you can't tell what the puppy will be, and therefore you could be spending $2500 on a house pet in a breed you can definitely get a good house pet from a rescue for a fraction of the cost. $2500 is not a fair market price from the sounds of this breeder. I am sure there are a few that can command this price and have their pups sold before the litter hits the ground. Probably a really good guarantee too from folks like that.

Find a breeder winning in a venue you want to train in, to buy puppies from. If they only showed you one, that's because they are in sales, not desiring to keep you happy as a client. They probably don't know anything about what you are doing with the dog. This will lead you to buying something you will own for 14 years and not be happy with. Research more. Find a training club where you will work this dog, and ask for help there. Still remember buyer beware. Is the club selling something?

Have you posted on here what you want, and gotten some advice on breeders, etc?? may save you some time. There are puppy sellers everywhere. We need the good ones to keep doing it, and the ones with no ethics to shut down from a lack of business. You can find good breeders that care about their chosen breed, and their clients. Make sure YOU get what YOU want and need.

The one very positive thing you did, I think, is walk away. Congrats for that and good luck on your next venture out.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

The first thing i will say is that i like the way you spelled out your situation in detail and asked specific questions. hope someone with experience will spend the same time reading it carefully and answering the six questions you submitted

my answers would only be opinions based on limited experience picking pups and i doubt you want that

i have met breeders that don't agree with volhard, but like anything dog related; that's not a surprise

but regardless of the pup testing method used, i would never buy a pup from any breeder if i didn't talk to others who had bought pups from them that were now mature dogs. if that info is hard to get or extremely limited, i would keep looking elsewhere....again, that's just me

good luck in your search


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## Jackie Lockard (Oct 20, 2009)

Tom Dealy said:


> • During almost all of the test, its tail was down, *and at times, between its legs.* I never observed the tail higher than horizontal.
> • *The dog appeared confident and calm in all settings*


I think you should expand your experience level before jumping into a Malinois puppy. Ditto what everyone else said about this "breeder". I think Dave's comment with bringing one puppy out = salesman rings true. Even when I didn't have pick of all dogs in the litters breeders have always shown me ALL the puppies and then told me which ones were already chosen. When breeders did the matching they still showed me ALL the puppies.

Edit: Seconding the question on who set the 3-5 minute "time limit". One of the most ridiculous pieces I've heard - did it come from this breeder? Pups go through hour long spurts, hour playing, hour napping, hour playing, ect. I've always spent HOURS choosing between multiple pups, or evaluating my chosen puppy (if the choice seems obvious) before making a final decision.


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## sam wilks (May 3, 2009)

There is no puppy worth $2500 period! That is absurd, for that you could get two very nice puppies. As far as Im concerned, If Im going to buy a puppy, for any amount, Im gonna test him however I want, within reason, ie Im not gonna go screaming at him. If I wanna play tug, throw the ball, take him in a building etc., Im going to or Im not buying him. I bought a puppy off of Wade a couple years ago and when I went there he showed me all the pups in the litter. He played tug with them and allowed me to test them however I wanted. He then proceeded to pull any dog out I wanted to see and show them to me. He also let me work some dogs including the sire of the litter and allowed me to test him however I wanted. And he damn sure didn't charge me 2500 for the pup. That price alone would be my number one deterrent. I got screwed on my first puppy and I know how hard it is when you are not familiar with what to look for. Do you have anyone that you train with that could go with you?


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## sam wilks (May 3, 2009)

http://www.youtube.com/user/85wilks?feature=mhee#p/u/5/itIhfY1_Zac
sold this pup for 500 and let the guy do whatever he wanted to test it!


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

sam wilks said:


> http://www.youtube.com/user/85wilks?feature=mhee#p/u/5/itIhfY1_Zac
> sold this pup for 500 and let the guy do whatever he wanted to test it!



Sam. I would pay $2500 for an excellent dog over a free crapper. That is my point. I haven't paid over $300 for a dog for quite a while.


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## Kelly Godwin (Jul 25, 2011)

Tom Dealy said:


> Hello,
> I went to a Mal. Breeder to test and observe a 14 week pup for protection work. I want to say right up front that I have no experience with Malinois puppies. This is why I need everyone’s help.


I think everyone here is giving you sound advice as far as getting away from this breeder. 

Give Mike Suttle a call at Logan Haus. Many folks on here have gotten great dogs from him. He's a standup guy with some excellent dogs! We went to Logan Haus this summer to pick up our pup and Mike was more than willing to let us see any/all dogs on their property. We played with the whole litter and were not pressured in the least. There were no outrageous claims about his dogs, their work spoke for itself. Really nice, clean operation he has going in WV!

There are also some other great mal breeders on here but Mike is the only one we have experience with with mals.


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## cezar boicu (Oct 1, 2011)

Hi Tom, 

My team have 4 malinois. 2 chosen from them, and 2 that were sent to them by some breeder. 

First, if you want it sent to you, it is also a good idea, BUT, you have to have very good recomandations for the specific breeder. I mean: how many puppies they have sold and also are in sports and what results, and also, what results have the parrents, grand parrents, etc etc. 

Second - I was there when we've chosen the puppies. They were maxim 9 weeks old. So, they were 3 mali males, put them together, get them leather, flushed it a few times before them, and they started to chase, bite, and hold it. For 10 minutes (at least, i have a movie, i really can provide it to you if you want proofs, i just need to talk to my team from romania, as now I am in states), and for 10 minutes, the 3 males were holding together the piece of soft leather and fighting. Then, some keys were dropped 1 meter near them, and then the bamboo was used(first on the back of the tester, going for the puppies slowly). On each sign of weakness of one puppy (small sign), the puppy was taken away after another re-charge part. Until, one puppy was still holding the leather despite all the noises. 

Next, the puppy was taken alone, with the tester, put in a new place, and played with him, to see how fast he becomes familiar. 

So, I know that the manual of dog training sayes that you cannot put more than 3 - 5 minutes on the daily training of the puppy, but this has NOTHING to do with the testing of the puppy. 
No prey drive ??? Run !!. You want a working puppy, not a family pet (i would like prrey even for a family pet). 

If you want to talk more, send me a message . 

Bye. 



Cezar.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Tom

Welcome to the WDF
You need to do an intro before you post too much.
You need to do a LOT more research before you think about buying any puppy. Like several people have already posted
$2500 for any puppy is ridiculous, the testing rules the "breeder" imposed are DUMB.
Of course I'm assuming this is a legitimate post and not more 
BS from another fake Identity


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Tom
> 
> Welcome to the WDF
> You need to do an intro before you post too much.
> ...


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## drew sterner (Aug 26, 2011)

i read half your post, didnt read any responses and I can tell you confidently to keep on moving. First red flag: 2500 dollars??? seriously? Second: The breeder was hesitant to let you test a puppy because she has had a pup "ruined" before? A good dog will not be ruined by doing some puppy testing. Do yourself a favor and run.


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## Ricardo Ashton (Jun 3, 2010)

Let me see if I can help you out from my experience and answer some of your questions

*1. When does the 3-5 minute attention span start?*
It doesn't. If a pup cannot hold focus, even randomly, in the part of its life when its supposed to be most curious I consider this a poor candidate.

2*. Is buying a 14 week old, last male of the litter, for a 40% discount (for whatever the reason), too old? *
Not really, I've bought pups a lot older,18 months even. It gives you a better chance to see the prospect's potential. That discount sounds more like motivation for you to take the last pup of that litter, because its the one no one else wanted.

*3. The breeder had 2 other litters, I think those were 6-8 week olds – but didn’t offer for me to see any of those pups. To be fair, I didn’t ask either. But the breeder kept telling me that this pup was the one for me. Is it normal for the breeder to only recommend one pup only to evaluate?*
Usually they do that if they're worried about getting stuck with the last pup from that litter and they won't be able to sell it as easy the older it gets.

*4. Is “tail carriage” important to evaluating a working pup?*
It helps in the evaluation of the pup's state of mind during testing and after testing.

*5. What method of picking out a working dog do you use?*
I personally use the farmers test, pain tolerance, noise tolerance, position adaptbility test and a few others. Differrent people use different tests for different reasons. It depends on what the pup is supposed to be able to do and the kind of temperament you're looking for in the end.

*6. In your opinion, should I get the pup?*
IMHO if this was a pup for my kennel I wouldn't waste any further time, but idk exactly what aspect of protection work is in your plans for the dog, or even if they may be subject to change, so I can't say what you should do. It seems to me from what you've posted that this breeder is primarily interested in unloading pups quickly and prefers not to get stuck with any and making money. I could be wrong, but I serously doubt it.
If they are experienced breeders worthy of their own reputation, they should be able to show what previous litters of the same combo look like and are doing as adults. If its the first time this combo is tried, then show what sire & dam have produced previously. Or even show or list the grandparents if possible. Basically they should at the very least try to show you the buyer what the pup comes from before telling you it's a perfect fit for what you want.

Again, this only MHO based on my experience. Hope this helps. And good luck with your search.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Ricardo Ashton said:


> *5. What method of picking out a working dog do you use?*
> I personally use the farmers test, pain tolerance, noise tolerance, position adaptbility test and a few others. Differrent people use different tests for different reasons. It depends on what the pup is supposed to be able to do and the kind of temperament you're looking for in the end.


If you have the time, can you describe your testing process...


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## Laura Bollschweiler (Apr 25, 2008)

I just wanted to point out sometimes breeders use the sales tactic of "this was held back to be my puppy, but xxxxx so I have to sell him.". Fill in the blank with whatever you want like his hair grew too long or his wife said no more dogs. In any case you get to brag that your puppy was going to be so-and-so's dog, but xxxxx. When really it was a leftover nobody else wanted. 

I'm not saying that's the case every time, but I've seen it happen. 

Laura


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## Ricardo Ashton (Jun 3, 2010)

Ok this might take a while, but here goes.

*Farmers test*: Pick the pup up by the scruff and hold suspended for 30-60 seconds. If the pup accepts the position and is relaxed, its a pass. if the pup stiffens up, spreads out its toes, tries to walk away or starts to yelp, it fails the test. This is to see how well he accepts being out of control.

*Pain Tolerance*: Pick the pup up & pinch the web of skin between the pup's toes till it yelps or pulls away, depending on how much pressure is applied before you get a reaction, you can then estimate its tolerance.

*Noise Tolerance*: Pup is placed on a table and distracted by food or toy,whatever, then you stand behind the pup out of his line of sight and clap once as loud as possible. If it looks back to investigate the source of the sound or even moves towards the sound its a pass. If it doesn't look back or tries to run, its a fail. This is to test his reaction to surprises and evaluate his level of nerve.

*Position adaptability*: Pick up the pup and put him in an awkward position, usually I hold them upside down at an angle, with the head facing away from me facing an angle downwards. Hold him in this position for about 2 minutes. If he tries to wriggle to free himself, but then settles to accept the position, this is a positive response. If he doesn't want to settle down at all, he fails the test.This is to see how he reacts or adapts to weird/strange/unusual surroundings.

hope this helps


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Ricardo Ashton said:


> Ok this might take a while, but here goes.
> 
> *Farmers test*: Pick the pup up by the scruff and hold suspended for 30-60 seconds. If the pup accepts the position and is relaxed, its a pass. if the pup stiffens up, spreads out its toes, tries to walk away or starts to yelp, it fails the test. This is to see how well he accepts being out of control.
> 
> ...


Was just curious, everyone is different...

The farmer test as I know it, is you throw a nice meaty bone in the pile, and see who walks away with it...


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## Ricardo Ashton (Jun 3, 2010)

I call that The Butchers test.:lol:
But it's not always the strongest/most dominant pup would walk away with it. I've seen scenarios where the runts with no significant confidence worth mentioning turn the tables and hold their own when it comes to defending their keep.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Ricardo Ashton said:


> I call that The Butchers test.:lol:
> But it's not always the strongest/most dominant pup would walk away with it. I've seen scenarios where the runts with no significant confidence worth mentioning turn the tables and hold their own when it comes to defending their keep.


true as well...


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Gotta agree with everyone else, first 2500 is to much for a Malinois pup. Reading your post my first thought was "I bet this breeder is in TX" LOL I suspect I know who it is, your's isn't the first similar story I've heard.

4-5 minute focus time, sometimes I WISH that were true (said with sarcasm) when a litter is busy attacking my legs as I try to navigate the yard cleaning it up, or doing other chores. Puppies are on again off again in their focus, and have "oh look it's a butterfly" moments for sure, but if a pup will only show interest in something like a prey object during a certain 4-5 minute window, then it's done for a few hours, move on, it's not a pup you want for working.

When it comes to testing I don't think the Volhard is really a standard, some swear by it others don't use it at all, and it's supposed to be administered at 7 weeks. I don't believe they claim it really will show much at 14 weeks. However, it's not going to hurt a pup if that's how you want to test it. I can see the breeder wanting to observe the testing, after all they don't know you and your experience level, or what you really plan to do to the pup, someone may tell them one thing, then do something completely different. Believe me, I've had some people come and want to do some VERY crazy stuff to test a litter or a dog. But to refuse to let you test the pup at all, they are hiding something. They know, or suspect, the pup isn't going to do so well on the testing and are hoping to just talk you into taking it and getting the two of you out the door.

It's possible a pup who has been playing hard for a few hours is going to be to tired to really care about toys and stuff, but this doesn't sound like the case, far from it. This sounds like a pup who is really lacking in drive, that they were trying to pass off as a working candidate.

I would move on and just look for a pup elsewhere. I would also try to find a breeder I could trust, or take someone more experienced with me when looking for a pup, just because of this statement.

• During almost all of the test, *its tail was down, and at times, between its legs*. I never observed the tail higher than horizontal. 
• The dog *appeared confident* and calm in all settings


Pup might have been calm in all settings, but I wouldn't call a pup who is putting it's tail between it's legs confident in all settings.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Ricardo Ashton said:


> I call that The Butchers test.:lol:
> But it's not always the strongest/most dominant pup would walk away with it. I've seen scenarios where the runts with no significant confidence worth mentioning turn the tables and hold their own when it comes to defending their keep.


 
or more likely while 1 and 2 are locked in battle the lesser dogs will casually walk away with the bone.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> or more likely while 1 and 2 are locked in battle the lesser dogs will casually walk away with the bone.


LOL I have a video like that on FB, a plastic container with some little bits of food left in it, 2 puppies were so busy hanging onto the container and growling/posturing at the other puppy trying to back them down, they weren't paying attention to the third puppy who just stuck there head in the container and proceeded to lick it clean  Not sure if I'd call her the lesser dog though, or just the smarter dog in this instance LOL


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

FWIW, the toe pinch on a puppy test has nothing to do with pain tolerance. It's all about how well the pupreacts/recovers.


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## Tom Dealy (Oct 9, 2011)

Rashae Lamar said:


> Hey tom, what breeder did you go to and from what ive read i wouldnt buy this puppy, where are you located i might be able to recommend a couple good breeders that will allow you to test there pupps with no issues.





Thomas Barriano said:


> Tom
> 
> Welcome to the WDF
> You need to do an intro before you post too much.
> ...


Thomas,

LOL. No. I didn't understand the registration rules. Now I do. Thanks for helping me get up and running!


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## Tom Dealy (Oct 9, 2011)

Joby Becker said:


> If you have the time, can you describe your testing process...


Joby,

I attempted to perform the Volhard test to a "T". I actually had a geeky clip board to read from just to make sure I didn't miss anything.

Here is what I took with me to the breeder's place.

Thanks.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Tom Dealy said:


> Joby,
> 
> I attempted to perform the Volhard test to a "T". I actually had a geeky clip board to read from just to make sure I didn't miss anything.
> 
> ...


I was asking about Ricardo's Tests..


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## Tom Dealy (Oct 9, 2011)

Ricardo Ashton said:


> Ok this might take a while, but here goes.
> 
> *Farmers test*: Pick the pup up by the scruff and hold suspended for 30-60 seconds. If the pup accepts the position and is relaxed, its a pass. if the pup stiffens up, spreads out its toes, tries to walk away or starts to yelp, it fails the test. This is to see how well he accepts being out of control.
> 
> ...


Ricardo,

I wasn't allowed to do the farmers test and pain test because the farmers test makes me "dominant" and that would ruin the pup. Some with the pain test but no explanation, just that it would ruin him. 

I think I was able to to the last two test and the pup performed very well. 

Thanks for the reply.


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## Tom Dealy (Oct 9, 2011)

I've also been speaking with Debbie at Belgium Malinois Puppies of Les Ombres Valeureux. She has one pup left from two litter whelped three days apart. http://www.pawsnclaws.us/malpups.htm 

Has anyone worked with Debbie before? I think I got her contact info from a post on this forum. 

Thanks again to everyone who posted. I got my questions answered and the experience of the community has helped me a lot already.


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## Tom Dealy (Oct 9, 2011)

*UPDATE!! Re: Puppy Testing For a working Dog*

I just checked me email and got this as a response when I told the breeder that I wan't going to get the pup. What does this mean? Am I an idiot? Haha. It kind of makes me feel like that gut instinct I had while there was totally off. I changed the personally identifying info because, again, I don't want to trash any one and I may very well just have no clue on how to pick out a Mal. pup. My experience with working dogs is limited to a few academic years for study, including a few seminars. 

"Thank you for getting back to me.

In that case he is going to a police K-9 handler who trains dogs for K-9..he is a judge and instructor for USPCA a K-9 certifying agency for law enforcement. He only buys the best for police work. He knows that [dog's name] is an outstanding pup and was waiting to hear your decision. [Dog's Name] will fly out on Thursday. It is unfortunate you did not trust my judgment and recommendation. I find it a bit disheartening that you would think I was only trying to sell a pup and not give you the best possible match.

Why would you want to work with someone you don’t trust."

Okay. I re-read it a third time now. What did I miss? I really think, esp. after hearing from the community, that I at least made a conservative decision so that I can do more research. 

I don't think it's that I don't trust the breeders judgment and much as it is that everything thing that I know didn't match up, coupled with the gut feeling that I got.


----------



## Kelly Godwin (Jul 25, 2011)

*Re: UPDATE!! Re: Puppy Testing For a working Dog*



Tom Dealy said:


> I just checked me email and got this as a response when I told the breeder that I wan't going to get the pup. What does this mean? Am I an idiot? Haha. It kind of makes me feel like that gut instinct I had while there was totally off. I changed the personally identifying info because, again, I don't want to trash any one and I may very well just have no clue on how to pick out a Mal. pup. My experience with working dogs is limited to a few academic years for study, including a few seminars.
> 
> "Thank you for getting back to me.
> 
> ...


I know you do not want to drag this breeder's name through the mud, but think of it this way, you would be providing a great service to any folks on here who might be looking at purchasing a dog from them in the future. A breeder's reputation is very important as the dog world can be a very small world!

My response to the email you received would be a simple 'Thanks for your time' and move on. No reason to feel sorry or feeling like you made a mistake in not taking the pup. I am certain you did the right thing. 

Good luck in your search and please keep us posted!


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Tom Dealy said:


> I've also been speaking with Debbie at Belgium Malinois Puppies of Les Ombres Valeureux. She has one pup left from two litter whelped three days apart. http://www.pawsnclaws.us/malpups.htm
> 
> Has anyone worked with Debbie before? I think I got her contact info from a post on this forum.
> 
> Thanks again to everyone who posted. I got my questions answered and the experience of the community has helped me a lot already.


Normally that puppy is going to go to NM to a guy that is in the military who wants to play some in mondioring. We've talked and emailed for about a week and just today he said he wants to send a deposit. 

I have a really nice female working quality pup available, but she's being sold 1/2 price ($500 and spayed first). Normally no more males for working..sorry about that...I can let you know if someone has a change of circumstance and can't get his/hers in the next few weeks.

Next litter will probably be Eruka (Dexter/Cybil..very linebred Kim du Boscaille) this fall and I'm using D'Only again. If you are out in SoCal come for a visit.

You can see my previous litters on www.youtube.com search "jaffrid" Having trouble getting videos up at the moment and trying to switch from Hughes "sucky" satellite to T-1 "expensive, but good svc"


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## Jackie Lockard (Oct 20, 2009)

*Re: UPDATE!! Re: Puppy Testing For a working Dog*



Tom Dealy said:


> the gut feeling that I got.


I think it means that they're trying to dump the pup on the sucker that will take him. \\/


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## Kelly Godwin (Jul 25, 2011)

Tom Dealy said:


> I've also been speaking with Debbie at Belgium Malinois Puppies of Les Ombres Valeureux. She has one pup left from two litter whelped three days apart. http://www.pawsnclaws.us/malpups.htm
> 
> Has anyone worked with Debbie before? I think I got her contact info from a post on this forum.
> 
> Thanks again to everyone who posted. I got my questions answered and the experience of the community has helped me a lot already.


She is one of the other breeders I was thinking of when I mentioned 'other good breeders' above. I have no direct dealings with her, but she has a wonderful reputation and does a lot for the breed.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Debbie Skinner said:


> I have a really nice female working quality pup available,


 
tom d is your puppet so you could sneak a free add in - kiddin. 

some people here have been corrected for less than that though - jus sayin


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> tom d is your puppet so you could sneak a free add in - kiddin.
> 
> some people here have been corrected for less than that though - jus sayin


I always pay for ads..not me..I didn't do it..can't prove anything..:roll:

Seriously check the puppy ads..Got 2 ads going plus old ones for friends in Europe that I paid for. I SUPPORT WDF with my fees!! :lol::lol:


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> tom d is your puppet so you could sneak a free add in - kiddin.
> 
> some people here have been corrected for less than that though - jus sayin


It was really Peter that bought my last male puppy...and now he's trying to distract everyone,,:---)


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

*Re: UPDATE!! Re: Puppy Testing For a working Dog*



Tom Dealy said:


> I just checked me email and got this as a response when I told the breeder that I wan't going to get the pup. What does this mean? Am I an idiot? Haha. It kind of makes me feel like that gut instinct I had while there was totally off. I changed the personally identifying info because, again, I don't want to trash any one and I may very well just have no clue on how to pick out a Mal. pup. My experience with working dogs is limited to a few academic years for study, including a few seminars.
> 
> "Thank you for getting back to me.
> 
> ...


Tom,

I call BS. I seriously doubt if the puppy you passed on was
sold to any K9 Handler/USPCA judge/ instructor
I'd bet there aren't that many USPCA judges and as far as
I know the USPCA doesn't have "instructors"
Trust your gut. You'll find a better puppy for less money
from someone on the WDF


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## drew sterner (Aug 26, 2011)

thats a very pushy breeder, and why does she feel the need to divulge all that info, to make you feel bad and buy from another litter?? Not a very professional response. Trust me dude, you did the right thing.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Debbie Skinner said:


> I always pay for ads..not me..I didn't do it..can't prove anything..:roll:
> 
> Seriously check the puppy ads..Got 2 ads going plus old ones for friends in Europe that I paid for. I SUPPORT WDF with my fees!! :lol::lol:


 

OK i get it. 

BTW you seem like a nice person and a knowledgable breeder - shame you picked the wrong breed


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Tom u screwed up and now missed out on a really nice puppy


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> Tom u screwed up and now missed out on a really nice puppy


I bet if he emailed the breeder and offered $2500. The puppy would be his?


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Don't feel bad about the letter. I got a snide comment on a forum from one breeder with whom I spent some serious time talking when I did not take their dog. ...........and it is not my policy to discuss specific breeders on forums......my decline was done privately and politely to this person and their sharp comment to me was done publicly on a forum. 

I also had others who understood when I decided to go down another path. The first person I wash my hands-I was not going crazy with wasting their time. The others, are in my notes for future dog possibilities.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Thomas Barriano said:


> I bet if he emailed the breeder and offered $2500. The puppy would be his?



Thomas, you mean 

"oh, yeah, the USPCA guy sent me the money, but decided to wait til the next litter, I still have your dog and all of his police K9 drives"


Damn salesmen...lol


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Dave Colborn said:


> Thomas, you mean
> 
> "oh, yeah, the USPCA guy sent me the money, but decided to wait til the next litter, I still have your dog and all of his police K9 drives"
> 
> ...


Nice to know I'm not the only cynic on the WDF


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Nancy Jocoy said:


> *it is not my policy to discuss specific breeders on forums......[/*QUOTE]
> 
> what is the WDF policy on this, re my earlier post this thread i fully intend to name the breeder that ripped me off.
> 
> ...


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> what is the WDF policy on this, re my earlier post this thread i fully intend to name the breeder that ripped me off.
> 
> i will name him on a number of forums both in my own country and other countries because he imports dogs so international should be aware who they are dealing with. i will detail the honest partner and the dishonest one. i am holding off while the two partners are awaiting a related court-case, i am told that is why i haven't been paid as the money is tied up pending court decision on the business.
> 
> ...



_"the breeder can avoid this by picking up his phone and talking to me, i am sure a member here knows the story and will relay this post back."
_
Or you could relay the message back.

For policy here on WDF, I'd recommend PMing Admin as being far preferable to and more productive than burying a protocol-question post in a general thread.


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Thomas Barriano said:


> I bet if he emailed the breeder and offered $2500. The puppy would be his?


I can't image sleeping at night if I took $2500 for a malinois pup.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Debbie Skinner said:


> I can't image sleeping at night if I took $2500 for a malinois pup.


Even if it was being sold to a USPCA judge and instructor and was
going to be a boner fide "police dog"?


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Even if it was being sold to a USPCA judge and instructor and was
> going to be a boner fide "police dog"?


..yes, I'd have to say even then..well, unless it passed all the police dog tests..biting the suit well in confined places, slippery floors, hunt drive and made the size requirement..kind a hard for a 14 week old..;-)


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

at what age does the price for an outstanding Mal pup cross the $2500.00 threshold? just curious...


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

I'd say you dodged a bullet on that one, Tom.

Lots of good breeders out there, and lots of money-grubbing scammers. Take your time and don't be bullied, badgered, or guilted into taking a puppy. Go with your gut - if you don't get a good feeling about the breeder, don't get a dog from him/her. Stuff you already seem to have figured out.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Joby Becker said:


> at what age does the price for an outstanding Mal pup cross the $2500.00 threshold? just curious...


I think that depends on the buyer, the seller, and the pup. I've been offered more than that on multiple occasions for different 3-4 month old pups, but I didn't take it. I kept the pups for a reason, the same reason the person trying to buy them was offering the money LOL 

I don't think it's unusual for the price to hit 2500 or over on 8 month old pups, I've known a number of situations where pups that age were sold for that much. But at that point you can do some x-rays, have a good idea of what potential the pup has, etc. And in a few more months that same pup could be worth 4000+ as a young adult/green dog. Or even a young adult with a lot of training on it.


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> at what age does the price for an outstanding Mal pup cross the $2500.00 threshold? just curious...



If it's a 4 mos old puppy that I really want to keep for myself and not sell, saying $2500 = "no, not for sale" I suppose. 

Seriously, it would have to be much older and showing him/herself well in training and character. I try to say, "_would I pay that much_?" when putting a price.

Hey, if the US$ goes back the other way to the EU$ and the transport and regulations of importing get any worse...a pup out of Europe may cost that soon. #-o


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## Ricardo Ashton (Jun 3, 2010)

*Re: UPDATE!! Re: Puppy Testing For a working Dog*



Tom Dealy said:


> I just checked me email and got this as a response when I told the breeder that I wan't going to get the pup. What does this mean? Am I an idiot? Haha. It kind of makes me feel like that gut instinct I had while there was totally off. I changed the personally identifying info because, again, I don't want to trash any one and I may very well just have no clue on how to pick out a Mal. pup. My experience with working dogs is limited to a few academic years for study, including a few seminars.
> 
> "Thank you for getting back to me.
> 
> ...



So suddenly like a bolt from the blue, this K-9 judge and instructor miraculously shows up to save the day and give this poor pup the chance to be an accomplished police K-9 the minute you decide you don't want what they have to offer.

For some strange reason, I'm not surprised.

I think we need to get a "full of sh!t" option in all those smilies.


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## Tom Dealy (Oct 9, 2011)

*Re: UPDATE!! Re: Puppy Testing For a working Dog*



Ricardo Ashton said:


> So suddenly like a bolt from the blue, this K-9 judge and instructor miraculously shows up to save the day and give this poor pup the chance to be an accomplished police K-9 the minute you decide you don't want what they have to offer.
> 
> For some strange reason, I'm not surprised.
> 
> I think we need to get a "full of sh!t" option in all those smilies.


Well I do feel a lot better now. I feel like I have learned so much in a few short days. Between the posts, PMs, and emails, everyone is so kind and helpful. Only thing that sucks, is this breeder was also the only protection trainer in my area. But that was still a 3 hour drive.

Thanks again!


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## Ross Rapoport (Aug 4, 2011)

*Re: UPDATE!! Re: Puppy Testing For a working Dog*



Tom Dealy said:


> Well I do feel a lot better now. I feel like I have learned so much in a few short days. Between the posts, PMs, and emails, everyone is so kind and helpful. Only thing that sucks, is this breeder was also the only protection trainer in my area. But that was still a 3 hour drive.
> 
> Thanks again!


Tom, if the emails and your posts are any indication, not only do you not want a puppy from them, you don't want them to train your dog either.

I know anecdotal evidence is not worth much, but when I picked out my dog, I was allowed to basically 'test' him however I wanted. I used the Volhard test and the breeder walked off while puffing on a cigarette, chatting away with my wife.

The email after the fact shows a desperate and pissed-off breeder who knows they're going to have to drop the price on a dog they are having trouble getting rid of.


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## Tom Dealy (Oct 9, 2011)

*Re: UPDATE!! Re: Puppy Testing For a working Dog*



Ross Rapoport said:


> Tom, if the emails and your posts are any indication, not only do you not want a puppy from them, you don't want them to train your dog either.
> 
> I know anecdotal evidence is not worth much, but when I picked out my dog, I was allowed to basically 'test' him however I wanted. I used the Volhard test and the breeder walked off while puffing on a cigarette, chatting away with my wife.
> 
> The email after the fact shows a desperate and pissed-off breeder who knows they're going to have to drop the price on a dog they are having trouble getting rid of.


Ross,

Thanks for your input. 

And to the testing, that's what I thought the reaction would have been. I mean for $2500, you would think you could test the pup in just about anyway you want. I was taken aback when the breeder wouldn't even let me throw a ball for the dog or pet the dog while laying on it's back. 

It's odd cause I go in with the mindset of what you described, and what I got was nothing but stonewall opposition. Then the tester that I brought with me (wife) is telling me, "You'll never find the perfect dog. What do you expect?!" 8-[ and I'm thinking, we only looked at ONE dog and this just DOESN'T feel right. LOL

I know I made the right call. Maybe I should email the breeder back and see if the pup is still being airmailed out tomorrow.  Then we'd really know what was up.


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Tom if a breeder is trying to shine you on and won't let you issue some basic acceptable tests on the pup then there is really only one reason. 

There are some really good breeders on this forum that don't play any bullshit games and produce some really nice dogs. I would advise you to go to them. *HINT* some of them are females.


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## Tom Dealy (Oct 9, 2011)

You guys are right. I'm going to post my email and the breeders response. I kept telling myself that this breeder can't by THAT bad. I mean I had been talking with her for about 3 months. I even signed up to go to her decoy seminar. (Which I couldn't get leave to go, but still, we communicated) I wanted to give her the benefit of the doubt. I wouldn't say that this is for sure what it looks like, only because we can't read people minds, only there actions and behaviors, but damn, it sure doesn't look good for her. 

She still has the pup that was supposed to go the "Police K-9 Judge and Instructor" after I said I'll think about your dog! There was a "payment delay!" lol.

Me:
"Is the dog still flying out Thursday or is he available for purchase? Either way, I'm sure he's going to a good home."

Breeder:
"Good to hear from you.

Am waiting on payment. He has some delays. Are you wanting [Dogs name]?"

WTF! Can you believe this. Well, I'm sure you guys can - YOU were the ones that warned me! Bottom line out all of this - even if you have little experience - ALWAYS trust your GUT! At least that's the biggest take away for me. ](*,)


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## Dave Cartier (Dec 2, 2009)

As if it needed to be asked. A breeder is going to match the same dog with:

1) First time handler

or

2) A police K-9 handler/Judge

Hmm. Trust your gut!!!


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## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

One key item for testing a litter, you never test on the breeders property. Take the pups off the home ground and run the tests in a new environment. The results can be totally different.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Tom,

This has been an interesting saga, but you still haven't done your intro or indicated where you're located?


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## Tom Dealy (Oct 9, 2011)

*Re: Puppy Testing for a Working Dog*



Thomas Barriano said:


> Tom,
> 
> This has been an interesting saga, but you still haven't done your intro or indicated where you're located?


I'm afraid to do an intro for fear of retribution from the breeder.  

In due time friend Thomas. In due time.


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## Lindsay Janes (Aug 9, 2007)

*Re: Puppy Testing for a Working Dog*



Tom Dealy said:


> I'm afraid to do an intro for fear of retribution from the breeder.
> 
> In due time friend Thomas. In due time.


 I believe that you are required to do an intro first before you are allowed to post anything. It is the rule in this forum. (Moderators, please correct me wrong if it is the rule or not.) 

FYI, your thread might get locked because I have seen newbies post here and they chose not to do an intro. Their threads got locked.

I am guessing you are somewhere out in Texas.. Here is the NARA clubs. There are two FR clubs in Texas that you might want to check out.

Good luck
http://ringsport.org/nara_clubs.htm#TEXAS

Mondio Ring Club
http://www.usmondioring.org/Contacts/Clubs.htm


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## Tom Dealy (Oct 9, 2011)

*Re: Puppy Testing for a Working Dog*



Lindsay Janes said:


> I believe that you are required to do an intro first before you are allowed to post anything. It is the rule in this forum. (Moderators, please correct me wrong if it is the rule or not.)
> 
> FYI, your thread might get locked because I have seen newbies post here and they chose not to do an intro. Their threads got locked.
> 
> ...


Oh. Okay. Who makes the rules? Do we get to vote on them? 

Where should I post my intro? Right here? Or is there a section for that?

Thanks for the redirection Lindsay! :-D


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

*Re: Puppy Testing for a Working Dog*



Tom Dealy said:


> ... Where should I post my intro? .... is there a section for that?


http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f20/


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## Lindsay Janes (Aug 9, 2007)

*Re: Puppy Testing for a Working Dog*



Tom Dealy said:


> Oh. Okay. Who makes the rules? Do we get to vote on them?
> 
> Where should I post my intro? Right here? Or is there a section for that?
> 
> Thanks for the redirection Lindsay! :-D


 Connie has the link in her post. I didn't make the rule, but I have been on this board for a long time. I guess you can start a thread by voting on rules, but I think the administrator is the one who made the final decision on what rules. So far I feel like the rule,has been really fair, there is no trolling, no fake names, etc. We each have our own Intro.  

Two thumbs up. Hope you feel welcome.


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## Tom Dealy (Oct 9, 2011)

*Re: Puppy Testing for a Working Dog*



Two thumbs up. Hope you feel welcome. :)[/QUOTE said:


> Thanks I do. I'll go make an intro.  Everyone is go great here. I was just worried about the breeder, cause she's a member too, albeit she's only posted once before - her intro! Haha.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

*Re: Puppy Testing for a Working Dog*



Lindsay Janes said:


> Connie has the link in her post. I didn't make the rule, but I have been on this board for a long time. I guess you can start a thread by voting on rules, but I think the administrator is the one who made the final decision on what rules. So far I feel like the rule,has been really fair, there is no trolling, no fake names, etc. We each have our own Intro.
> 
> Two thumbs up. Hope you feel welcome.



That rule has no chance of changing. 

It's as firm as the "real names" rule.

Flouting either one means "permaban." :lol:


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## Tom Dealy (Oct 9, 2011)

*Re: Puppy Testing for a Working Dog*



Lindsay Janes said:


> Connie has the link in her post. I didn't make the rule, but I have been on this board for a long time. I guess you can start a thread by voting on rules, but I think the administrator is the one who made the final decision on what rules. So far I feel like the rule,has been really fair, there is no trolling, no fake names, etc. We each have our own Intro.
> 
> Two thumbs up. Hope you feel welcome.





Connie Sutherland said:


> That rule has no chance of changing.
> 
> It's as firm as the "real names" rule.
> 
> Flouting either one means "permaban." :lol:


Okay. Done! Thanks!


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## Kelly Godwin (Jul 25, 2011)

Tom Dealy said:


> You guys are right. I'm going to post my email and the breeders response. I kept telling myself that this breeder can't by THAT bad. I mean I had been talking with her for about 3 months. I even signed up to go to her decoy seminar. (Which I couldn't get leave to go, but still, we communicated) I wanted to give her the benefit of the doubt. I wouldn't say that this is for sure what it looks like, only because we can't read people minds, only there actions and behaviors, but damn, it sure doesn't look good for her.
> 
> She still has the pup that was supposed to go the "Police K-9 Judge and Instructor" after I said I'll think about your dog! There was a "payment delay!" lol.
> 
> ...


hahaha that is hilarious! I'm glad you avoided that mess!=D>


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

*Re: Puppy Testing for a Working Dog*



Tom Dealy said:


> I'm afraid to do an intro for fear of retribution from the breeder.
> 
> In due time friend Thomas. In due time.


Hi Tom

Glad to see that you've done your intro and others have explained why it's required.
Re: Retribution

What's she going to do? Not let you pay $2500 for an unproven
puppy? ;-)
You've presented information. We can all make up our minds if the breeder is FOS or not.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

*Re: Puppy Testing for a Working Dog*

FOS Thomas???? what does that mean??


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Full of it.


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