# Hovawart as a PPD?



## Caitlin Beaumont (May 2, 2012)

Hovawart means "guardian of the estate or property". I have seen videos of Hovawarts doing bitework for sport but nothing super, of course with Show breeders it is discouraged to breed any Hovawart that is aggressive. I am not good at recognizing drives or anything but as far as I can tell this is just a "game" to these dogs:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xaBUkqw4Zo8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vMNeAO9b5MY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T8ONnfg-w6Q


I was a little bit interested in them and wondered if you would think these dogs woud be worth my time if I wanted to have train in protection? I am basically set on getting a knpv DS or Mal, better for ppd, but curious about Hovawarts. I probably already answered my own question... but would still like some feedback especially if someone has ever worked with this breed.


----------



## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Caitlin Beaumont said:


> Hovawart means "guardian of the estate or property". I have seen videos of Hovawarts doing bitework for sport but nothing super, of course with Show breeders it is discouraged to breed any Hovawart that is aggressive. I am not good at recognizing drives or anything but as far as I can tell this is just a "game" to these dogs:
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xaBUkqw4Zo8
> 
> ...


Caitilin, 

I have never worked with Hovawart...And from those videos, All the dogs were in very early training. So, A lot is left to be found out if the dogs will actually do the work, It looked like they all were preparing for IPO. Which yes, can be taught as just a game. But even as a game it does take something extra for a dog to stay there. The first dog I thought was the strongest and most clear. But your right it was nothing to get crazy about. But none the less good on the handlers for taking the time to work a off breed and getting them that far, lord knows most people with an off breed do not make it that far. But Aggressiion? None there....Just working for that tennis ball or a good game of tug of war. The day the dog goes out, sees a new Decoy, in a differenct setting, with no leash....You could see completely different dog. You need both, a dog that is playing the game, but has enough suspicion and charcter to see a threat and fight back. I think the odds of you getting a dog that is even on the same plane as those dogs....slim.

My experience with people buying KNPV dogs....Hmmm. I have not seen a lot of people get a good dog from KNPV lines (which is a contradictory statement...as most KNPV people do not reference pedigrees to make breeding decisions) in the states. Just buyer beware is all I am saying. KNPV looks impressive (and it is) on video, but what we do not see is all the dogs that are washed out. From what I know about KNPV is: they have a minimalistic approach to breeding. Just take good dog A and breed to Good dog B. There is a lot of outcrossing of Genes and mixing of breeds...which means you get a high variance in pups. And the general social culture of KNPV is they are willing to sift through a lot of dogs. I know some may disagree with me on this....But It's what I see. I am sure there are breeders in KNPV that try to develop a line...But it's not what's advertised. No pedigree breeding, Just look at the dogs in front of you and make a decision. For me...That makes it extremely diffcult to get consistent pups. In KNPV more than any other protection work, Dog selection is the single largest factor in success. And with the high degree variance in charcter traits in litters....I think you have just a good of shot of getting a nerve bag or a dud as you do a killer. 

I also see KNPV "lines" here in the states sometimes as a marketing gimmick....They list the dogs from KNPV lines but the dogs themselves have never done anything...even though they are from "KNPV" lines, and unsuspecting buyers, get suckered in by those 4 little letters...thinking they are going to get the dog of thier dreams.

Now finding a dog that will do protection work from a breed that was bred for it can be diffcult enough. And generally, I see people whom have never done anything in protection work, who want to buy a dog from a breed not bred for it, giving themselves a challenge....They almost get off on the idea they are going to do so something different. And they have no idea how hard it is with a good dog. 18 months later they are baffled, fustrated and dissappionted....Not saying your new to this. But give yourself a break and a fighting chance.

So, my reccomendation is go for a breed that has proven it can do it. I also would reccomend you get a dog from stud and dam who have lines that are similar genetics, and whom have dogs in the pedigree whom have done the work you want, with success....This will give you the best chance for success.


----------



## Lisa Brazeau (May 6, 2010)

All dogs are individuls, and in those videos, those individual dogs appear to be doing okay in protection. However, the likelihood of YOUR Hovawart puppy, even with perfect training, being good at protection is low. So if you want a dog that is going to take you to the podium, don't get a Hovawart. Go with your DS or Mal. Just because this Border Terrier puts out an impressive routine doesn't make Border Terriers good Schutzhund dogs in general - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KIBrQS0vCiM&feature=player_embedded

PPDs, and more over their training groups/trainers, are different than sports groups/trainers. So make sure you know what you want to do before you pick your pup.


----------



## Lisa Brazeau (May 6, 2010)

Hi Chris,

I agree that KNPV lines are not a good choice for sports in my experience. PPDs? Maybe...

We have an excellent KNPV mal in our club who is doing quite well with mondioring. He has nice biting style and a willing attitude. He slips into aggression easily, though. And he can be handler aggressive. Is that because of his training or genetics? It's the age-old argument.


----------



## Lisa Brazeau (May 6, 2010)

James Downey said:


> Now finding a dog that will do protection work from a breed that was bred for it can be diffcult enough. And generally, I see people whom have never done anything in protection work, who want to buy a dog from a breed not bred for it, giving themselves a challenge....They almost get off on the idea they are going to do so something different. And they have no idea how hard it is with a good dog. 18 months later they are baffled, fustrated and dissappionted....Not saying your new to this. But give yourself a break and a fighting chance.


Truer words never spoken...


----------



## Tim Connell (Apr 17, 2010)

Hovawarts remind me of bi-color Golden Retrievers  

Here's another example of a dog that can do the exercises, but does that mean it is "doing it for real"? Schutzhund means "protection dog"...for some people it got lost along the way...I respect the people that still train it (well, IPO now) "for real", and try to remain true to it's roots.

I would choose a dog from a working breed (from working lines) with a proven track record for success in your chosen venue. Sure, there is the exceptional "off breed" that is successful, but why not stack the deck in your favor? 


...and then we have the Border Terriers, Chihuahuas, Jack Russells, etc. that have been very well trained in the IPO/Schutzhund pattern...sure they are fun to watch, but...


----------



## Caitlin Beaumont (May 2, 2012)

James Downey said:


> Caitilin,
> 
> I have never worked with Hovawart...And from those videos, All the dogs were in very early training. So, A lot is left to be found out if the dogs will actually do the work, It looked like they all were preparing for IPO. Which yes, can be taught as just a game. But even as a game it does take something extra for a dog to stay there. The first dog I thought was the strongest and most clear. But your right it was nothing to get crazy about. But none the less good on the handlers for taking the time to work a off breed and getting them that far, lord knows most people with an off breed do not make it that far. But Aggressiion? None there....Just working for that tennis ball or a good game of tug of war. The day the dog goes out, sees a new Decoy, in a differenct setting, with no leash....You could see completely different dog. You need both, a dog that is playing the game, but has enough suspicion and charcter to see a threat and fight back. I think the odds of you getting a dog that is even on the same plane as those dogs....slim.
> 
> ...


 
Yes, I was thinking exactly what you said, If I wanted a protection breed then get a protection breed. If I get an "off-breed" then I am setting myself up for more work, headaches, and possibly failure. I am not fooled by the KNPV breeders, if the sire and/or dam was not titled in PH1, and they were not both linebred somewhat with similar bloodlines, then I do not want a puppy. The only breeders I am really interested in are not even from the USA. 

It is Christopher Jones, Aussie, and Andre Luyken, Netherlands. 

http://www.workingdutchies.com/

http://www.luykensdogsite.nl/index.php

Megan Bays with Kole Mountain kennels does not have PH1 titled dogs and is in the US but their stud Bor is a police k9 and their other male Rabbit, was going to be titled but did not due to an injury. Again I would still want a dam with a smilar bloodline... From what I have read on forums and heard these are good breeders. There is a small possibility that I may own a senior PPD trained Mal... He is going to be rehomed, not exactly sure when, he is very possesive and has high prey drives. He left it open about me aquiring him, I will be visiting this kennel around June/July and will get to see Max. Again I may not like a dog that is really possesive so this may be a big deciding factor, and Max may not like me. I don't want to get bit by my dog while playing tug-of-war.
*note: see* http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBul...l-protection-dog-23897/index4.html#post337743


----------



## Caitlin Beaumont (May 2, 2012)

Lisa Brazeau said:


> All dogs are individuls, and in those videos, those individual dogs appear to be doing okay in protection. However, the likelihood of YOUR Hovawart puppy, even with perfect training, being good at protection is low. So if you want a dog that is going to take you to the podium, don't get a Hovawart. Go with your DS or Mal. Just because this Border Terrier puts out an impressive routine doesn't make Border Terriers good Schutzhund dogs in general - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KIBrQS0vCiM&feature=player_embedded
> 
> PPDs, and more over their training groups/trainers, are different than sports groups/trainers. So make sure you know what you want to do before you pick your pup.


 
That was another reason the chances of me even getting a Hovie were pretty low, If I wanted a PPD dog. I do not think there is a big gene pool of quality working dogs out there.


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

It's another breed that has been lost to the show world. Hopefully there are breeders out there trying to keep a few good ones going.


----------



## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

If you want a dog as a PPD primarily and not IPO or other sport, 90+% of self defense is deterrence. Even if there was a sizeable majority of working European dogs you could import, even they were nastier than the nastiest KNPV Dutchie, Hovawarts look like a fluffy golden retriever mix to nearly all Americans. If you want a dog strictly for PPD that you can walk down the street with that people are less likely to approach, get something like a Rottweiler with some prey drive that you can work with. They have probably about the highest deterrence factor, perhaps barring some of the larger molossers (Cane Corsos, Presas, etc). Even my 65 lbs Rottie had more of that than my bitework trained Malinois and she was a certified therapy dog who loved everybody. If you want to do sport, get a nice dog from sport lines.


----------



## Caitlin Beaumont (May 2, 2012)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> If you want a dog as a PPD primarily and not IPO or other sport, 90+% of self defense is deterrence. Even if there was a sizeable majority of working European dogs you could import, even they were nastier than the nastiest KNPV Dutchie, Hovawarts look like a fluffy golden retriever mix to nearly all Americans. If you want a dog strictly for PPD that you can walk down the street with that people are less likely to approach, get something like a Rottweiler with some prey drive that you can work with. They have probably about the highest deterrence factor, perhaps barring some of the larger molossers (Cane Corsos, Presas, etc). Even my 65 lbs Rottie had more of that than my bitework trained Malinois and she was a certified therapy dog who loved everybody. If you want to do sport, get a nice dog from sport lines.


 
Well my Hovie would be all black or bi color...so non savy dog people would just think its a Chow Doberman mix LOL. I know most people are scared of Dobermanns and Chows. But seriously I know the whole liability and that actually using my dog would be a last resort (I would use a gun or pepper spray before I would send my dog out, and if the person was on drugs it would not even faze him.) There will always be some lawyer and client that will twist the law to make it work against me and my dog, plus the dog would have to go in quarantine regardless. After all this Yes, I still would like a PPD dog and I was never really into sports. I liked FR for a little while but then I decided, again, that PPD was for me.


----------



## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

Caitlin
re: "After all this Yes, I still would like a PPD dog and I was never really into sports. I liked FR for a little while but then I decided, again, that PPD was for me."

this topic fascinates me because i am so ignorant about it 
heard the term MANY times and seen a few clips of PPD training, but have NO clue what PPD means and have never seen a PPD face to face

specifically
- how did you come to the decision a PPD was for you ?
- what makes a PPD dog different than a dog trained in bite sports and how do you recognize PPD potential in a dog prior to training it
- how does PPD training differ from the above ?
- when would you consider a PPD "trained" and ready to do its
job ?

lots more Q's but it would probably bore everyone to read em.....


----------



## Caitlin Beaumont (May 2, 2012)

rick smith said:


> Caitlin
> re: "After all this Yes, I still would like a PPD dog and I was never really into sports. I liked FR for a little while but then I decided, again, that PPD was for me."
> 
> this topic fascinates me because i am so ignorant about it
> ...


PPD is personal protection dog. 

1. I like bitework, never seen it in person but it is just something that I know I would. I would much rather do bitework that means something in the real world then just an expensive game, like FR, Mondio, and Schutz. Plus I want to do "cutsom" work. I want to do work that I can fold to what I want and not the game rules. Main reason I got into FR was because I really thought there were no good PPD trainers within a certain driving distance. After help and research I found two good trainers.
2. PPD is trained in real-world scenarios to protect against the bad guy, EX: They be trained from your car, a building, outside, noisy obstacles, and if possible your own home. Any dog that has the correct temp and drives will protect no matter if they are trained in bitesports or the real thing, but you will really never know yourself until the situation arises. Bitesports are just that, sports. I am still a newbie so sorry for any mistakes but I do not think sports use everything that protect training does. Obviously if the breeder was a good, knew thier lines, and payed attention to the pups, they would pick the best potential pup out for you. Then you take him to the trainer and he will tell you if the dog has any potential, if he does then you can start training. 
3. Like I said above PP is more custom while bitesports are more about rules of the game and they are not meant to be the real thing just a fun game for your dog.
4. Again the trainer would tell you this, and the owner should have at least a basic understanding of drives and such so they shlould be able to tell also. 

I don't mind you asking any quetions, I don't have anything to hide Lol.


----------



## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

Caitlin
- there have been threads on this topic you could probably dig up and review
- have you seen dogs that these two trainers have trained in PPD ... in real world situations ?
- i'm not talking about training fields or on their property .... it is VERY hard to set up a PPD demo that shows the difference between a sport dog trained to bite a person on command that is not wearing visual equipment and acting similar to a decoy 
- i have seen MANY video of dogs described as PPDs that were clearly trained in traditional bite sports, that i would consider only a sport dog that the owner felt confident that they would "protect" in some hypothetical but untested situation, but were NOT trained well enough to tell the difference between a "good guy and a bad guy"
- i would be also be concerned with the safety and liability issues that come into play a LOT more than just owning a dog that you could direct to bite and release a bite in any situation outside a controlled training area, which is where bite sports take place safely
- based on your experience i guess i'm just saying that you are leaving a lot up to the trainer, so if it were me, i'd be damn sure i knew exactly what their actual accomplishments were 
...trust but verify....as a famous prez once said


----------



## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Caitlin Beaumont said:


> PPD is personal protection dog.
> 
> 1. I like bitework, never seen it in person but it is just something that I know I would. I would much rather do bitework that means something in the real world then just an expensive game, like FR, Mondio, and Schutz. Plus I want to do "cutsom" work. I want to do work that I can fold to what I want and not the game rules. Main reason I got into FR was because I really thought there were no good PPD trainers within a certain driving distance. After help and research I found two good trainers


People who say this are usually the ones who don't have the drive (themselves, not necessarily the dog) to get their dog and moreso themselves to that level of obedience and precision required in the upper level of sportwork. They don't know about it, they don't understand it, so they knock it. I think this is a mistake. Are there people who show up once a week or every other week and treat Schutzhund practice as a social event? Sure. But many folks are pretty serious into bitework, even IPO/Schutzhund, expose their dog to a lot more than what is needed on the trial field. You said you got into French Ring...but did you actually get into without ever seeing it? I'm confused. 

There are many PPD trainers out there who would be glad to take your money, suffice it to say. Caveat emptor.



> 2. PPD is trained in real-world scenarios to protect against the bad guy, EX: They be trained from your car, a building, outside, noisy obstacles, and if possible your own home. Any dog that has the correct temp and drives will protect no matter if they are trained in bitesports or the real thing, but you will really never know yourself until the situation arises. Bitesports are just that, sports. I am still a newbie so sorry for any mistakes but I do not think sports use everything that protect training does. Obviously if the breeder was a good, knew thier lines, and payed attention to the pups, they would pick the best potential pup out for you. Then you take him to the trainer and he will tell you if the dog has any potential, if he does then you can start training.



You may also be interested in PSA. It's the sport I do and puts the most forward pressure on the dog before and after the bite of any of the major sports. Kind of like the environmentals of Mondio with some more PPD aspects (though it certainly still a sport). A good way to go is to find yourself a good general working dog club where the decoy/helper/training director is open to trying different scenarios instead of pattern training strictly for a trial. A PSA club is more likely to be open to this than a Schutzhund club, for example, but not necessarily. Some Schutzhund clubs are open to it as well.



> 3. Like I said above PP is more custom while bitesports are more about rules of the game and they are not meant to be the real thing just a fun game for your dog.


Sorry, but that's not necessarily the case. Not all dogs see bitework as a fun game and it's not always trained as a fun game either...I am curious how you came to those conclusions not having done bitework before? I am not trying to put you off, but those are pretty strong statements.


----------



## Caitlin Beaumont (May 2, 2012)

Wow that is a lot of questions. 

Basically I do not want to do any bitesports, just PPD (and other things of course). Simple as that. It is just preference. 


If I do not fully answer a question you can ask it again, But I will do my best to answer them:

I "got into" FR because I thought there was no PP trainers near me, and it seemed like the closest thing to PP to me (I prefer suits and not sleeves). Once I found out there were PP trainers then I "went back" to PP that I was much more interested in. No I have not seen either in person and am not knocking bitesports, I just do not prefer them over PP or even Police/Military dog training. 

I said before that I am not accurate on everything I state. I obviously came off confusing and should of just stated that I liked PP and not bitesports.


----------



## Caitlin Beaumont (May 2, 2012)

rick smith said:


> Caitlin
> - there have been threads on this topic you could probably dig up and review
> - have you seen dogs that these two trainers have trained in PPD ... in real world situations ?
> - i'm not talking about training fields or on their property .... it is VERY hard to set up a PPD demo that shows the difference between a sport dog trained to bite a person on command that is not wearing visual equipment and acting similar to a decoy
> ...


 
Nope, But I have heard that Jerry Lyda is very good. Everyone says so in my Bio, and just about anyhwere else their names are mentioned. I doubt any of these big dog people would support trainers who pumped out poor quality dogs. I might be working with someone else that is only an hour away from me, though. 

I have so much to learn about lots of things so do not expect me to say/know much, at the moment. If the area was not safe to train then I would not train there. I can easily train in my backyard (tall wood fence), house, and drive my car into the backyard to keep strangers safe.


----------



## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

You just seem to have a lot of very strong preferences and opinions for not seeing any bitework of any type in person. I would just advise you to take a bit more in before you come to any strong conclusions that bitework in sports is all fun and games and the dogs are never exposed to anything outside what they would see in a trial and PPDs are all uber serious maneaters. 

Keep in mind that one of the reasons to have a PPD or learn self defense or martial arts or whatever is so you will never have to use them. Having a fluffy golden retriever mix looking dog will not help much. I know it's probably not what you want to hear, but it's true. If you have a Rottweiler or German shepherd that will bark at strangers, that will be good enough for probably 95%+ of people to keep them back who will want to do you harm. The other 5% may just shoot and kill your dog and then come right back after you. Keep that in mind always.

Jerry is a very good guy though, and so is Jay. Stick with them.


----------



## Caitlin Beaumont (May 2, 2012)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> You just seem to have a lot of very strong preferences and opinions for not seeing any bitework of any type in person. I would just advise you to take a bit more in before you come to any strong conclusions that bitework in sports is all fun and games and the dogs are never exposed to anything outside what they would see in a trial and PPDs are all uber serious maneaters.
> 
> Keep in mind that one of the reasons to have a PPD or learn self defense or martial arts or whatever is so you will never have to use them. Having a fluffy golden retriever mix looking dog will not help much. I know it's probably not what you want to hear, but it's true. If you have a Rottweiler or German Shepherd that will bark at strangers, that will be good enough for probably 95%+ of people to keep them back who will want to do you harm. The other 5% may just shoot and kill your dog and then come right back after you. Keep that in mind always.
> 
> Jerry is a very good guy though, and so is Jay. Stick with them.


I know I have strong opinions without much experience. I would not make these sort of statements without truly believing that this is something I prefer and like. I understand that I will likely not ever use my dog to defend me in a real situation, and if that person of that 5% was to ever approach me I would be using better means of defending myself like a Gun. On the other hand I like to Trail run and it's not like I'm going to be carrying really anything while running, it would be very comforting to have a PPD if a scary person was to confront me.

A very little, and off topic, example of my strong opinions... I met a high ball drive Boxer mix earlier this year and was "in love" with the dog. The dog never wanted to stop playing and would even jump all the way up to my head to try and catch the frizbee out of my hands. That was something that I had never seen in a dog, but "knew" that was something I wanted. Sure enough I was right. Ironically the owners only let the dog play for 10 minutes before putting it back inside :-s. Even Gunner gets worked longer than that!


----------



## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Going to make an effort to be extra nice. Just stick with Jerry...


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

What I know is that "IF" I had a real need for a PPD then I don't want one that makes the bad guy even think he can get close to me. Golden look a likes would probably do that.


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Most cops and presentations before Neighborhood watches have always maintained that a barking dog of just about any breed is a deterrent. I don't think Caitlin owes anyone any justification for her opinions, breed of chorice or what she wants to train. Most people looking at my bouv thinks she fluffy cute. I can clear streets walking with a GSD. There will always be the breeds that have been used to strike fear in the masses. Doesn't mean you can't train something else to serve either a deterrent or manstopper purpose. Mostly you hear about bad PPD training. If the Lyda boyz are on board, then she's good to go. Its up to the trainers to let her know what the dog's potential is for what she would like it to do. 

T


----------



## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

re T's post : 
"Most cops and presentations before Neighborhood watches have always maintained that a barking dog of just about any breed is a deterrent."
...obvious, but i will go out on a limb and say that she isn't interested in a PPD as a backyard barker....you can get those at a shelter for free and they don't need much training to perform that role  

"I don't think Caitlin owes anyone any justification for her opinions, breed of chorice or what she wants to train."
... i prefer discussions where posters will justify their opinions rather than just "have em". if i wanted to hear what people like and don't like i'd join a chat line, but that's just me

"Most people looking at my bouv thinks she fluffy cute. I can clear streets walking with a GSD. There will always be the breeds that have been used to strike fear in the masses." 
.....no comment 

"Doesn't mean you can't train something else to serve either a deterrent or manstopper purpose."
... the deterrent part is a piece of cake .... to train a manstopper is going down a totally different (training) road 

"Mostly you hear about bad PPD training."
from my limited experience, the majority of vids i have seen would fall into the stoopid category, but there seems to be a market for PPD's since there are people who think they need one or want one ...like Caitlin 

the word protection gets tossed around a lot ... never seen it clearly displayed by a "professionally" trained PPD, but seen some nice set up sessions done outside a field ..... by canines trained in bitesports.

and i'm aware there are many people who feel their sport dog would do the job of a PPD if called upon
- but that still doesn't clarify to me what a PPD is and how it gets trained to be one, and how that training program differs from the field and ring sports 

"If the Lyda boyz are on board, then she's good to go. Its up to the trainers to let her know what the dog's potential is for what she would like it to do." 
...... NOW WE'RE GETTING SOMEWHERE !!!
- yeah, these are the "good guys" and i would definitely respect their opinions and training programs
... so if they train a dog to be a PPD i would like to read what their PPD training program is all about ..... and some vids of their fully trained/qualified PPD strutting it's stuff would be icing on the cake !
.... THAT would be an interesting thread for me

...no, this aint a call out guys 
just tired of reading about PPD training and never seeing the finished product or reading how it gets there


----------



## Caitlin Beaumont (May 2, 2012)

Bob Scott said:


> What I know is that "IF" I had a real need for a PPD then I don't want one that makes the bad guy even think he can get close to me. Golden look a likes would probably do that.


 
Lol I don't know, even some people get scared by my Big SCARY ..... wait for it... LABRADOR!!!


----------



## Caitlin Beaumont (May 2, 2012)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Most cops and presentations before Neighborhood watches have always maintained that a barking dog of just about any breed is a deterrent. I don't think Caitlin owes anyone any justification for her opinions, breed of chorice or what she wants to train. Most people looking at my bouv thinks she fluffy cute. I can clear streets walking with a GSD. There will always be the breeds that have been used to strike fear in the masses. Doesn't mean you can't train something else to serve either a deterrent or manstopper purpose. Mostly you hear about bad PPD training. If the Lyda boyz are on board, then she's good to go. Its up to the trainers to let her know what the dog's potential is for what she would like it to do.
> 
> T


 
Do you mean Bouv as in Bouvier... I like that breed also (not sure about grooming if a lot is required). But that is a different story. Anyways I understand that people will question my reasons just like anyone else. But even more because of my age and, so far, inexperience. I know what you mean about walking "scary" dogs down the street, shoot I have seen people scared of Gunner!


----------



## Caitlin Beaumont (May 2, 2012)

Bob Scott said:


> What I know is that "IF" I had a real need for a PPD then I don't want one that makes the bad guy even think he can get close to me. Golden look a likes would probably do that.


 And Would you really care WHAT the dog looked like if he was coming after you or barking his head off anyways? Most people would know to back off whether the dog looked like a golden or not.


----------



## Caitlin Beaumont (May 2, 2012)

rick smith said:


> re T's post :
> "Most cops and presentations before Neighborhood watches have always maintained that a barking dog of just about any breed is a deterrent."
> ...obvious, but i will go out on a limb and say that she isn't interested in a PPD as a backyard barker....you can get those at a shelter for free and they don't need much training to perform that role
> 
> ...


1. Gunner was for free and he is a a deterrent, We have neighborhood watch, AND outside lights/dog signs yet that does not seem to scare the robbers. It does not matter if my dog was PPD or not... he likely would just be a backyard barker. BUT knowing that If I had no other choice but to use my own fists it would be nice to know I had someone else to back me up, aka a PPD. Again I go running during all crazy hours of the nights and go biking alone in scary places, having a dog that will tear your head off, and I KNOW it not just hope so, Is pretty darn comforting. I also heard this quote from somewhere that I thought was pretty funny. "Unlike a gun or a knife your PPD dog can't be used against you." So the Bad guy can't take your dog and use your dog against you.... anyone can get the a gun taken away if they are not that experienced or they are easily overpowered. Both which apply to me. 

2. I am not sure if you think that there is no reason for me to get a PPD or you are just curious as in WHY I want a dog like that. I only purchase from working breeders because in no way shape or form do I like show breeders. There are only a handful of breeds that can do everything I want. All of those breeds working lines are ONLY herding, which almost always show too, or protection. Well I would rather do Protection and purchase from a strictly working breeder so there you go. The first and foremost thing I am looking for is NOT a PPD dog but a dog that is large (25"+ & 80 lbs+), intelligent, agile and athletic, and has a fairly easy to care for coat. PPD is just an added bonus that I would very much enjoy doing. Or I could just do bitesports but again, I still prefer PP over them. 

3. You have questions that you probably need to directly ask a PPD trainer.. you could probably find a good page of info anywhere telling the difference between a sport dog and a PPD. I would not feel comfortable telling step by step what is the difference between the two because I would probably give some false info. But if PPD, Military k9s, Bitesports, and Police k9s are all seperate things then there must be a difference between them and how they train. Some Police k9 doubles as a narcotics dog while the I think the average military k9 does also, so they basically might be the same except for given different names based on who owns them.


----------



## Caitlin Beaumont (May 2, 2012)

Bob Scott said:


> What I know is that "IF" I had a real need for a PPD then I don't want one that makes the bad guy even think he can get close to me. Golden look a likes would probably do that.


 
Sorry, One more reply... With a deterrent dog it's all about looks. The dog needs to sounds scary and look scary because that is it's main purpose and probably all it can do.

With a PPD it does not matter if it looks like a ball of fluff or a maneater, even though most people would still prefer a scary looking dog, it's all about what under the hood. 

I would rather have a good PPD Hovawart, aka golden mix, that will protect rather than a Rottweiler, aka evil scary dog, that LOOKS like it can protect. Any dog with big shiny teeth and a deep bark will deter most bad guys but I want a dog that can do more than just bluff and give the bad a guy a run for his money, or should I say my money.


----------



## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Caitlin Beaumont said:


> I would rather have a good PPD Hovawart, aka golden mix, that will protect rather than a Rottweiler, aka evil scary dog, that LOOKS like it can protect.


Uh yeah...good luck with that. I like seeing off breeds do well in protection sport, but PPD can be a life or death thing. Again, the point is not to have anyone mess with you in the first place, let alone have a dog that will actually do the work. This is always a huge and potentially fatal gamble with an inexperienced person and an off breed dog. I didn't notice any mules in the Kentucky Derby last weekend...did you? :-k


----------



## Caitlin Beaumont (May 2, 2012)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Uh yeah...good luck with that. I like seeing off breeds do well in protection sport, but PPD can be a life or death thing. Again, the point is not to have anyone mess with you in the first place, let alone have a dog that will actually do the work. This is always a huge and potentially fatal gamble with an inexperienced person and an off breed dog. I didn't notice any mules in the Kentucky Derby last weekend...did you? :-k


 
I was just using an example. Technically a Hovie is not an off-breed. They were meant for protection, obviously the name implies that and some of the show offpsring still have a little of those drives and such still leftover. But the Show breeders got a hold of them, only difference between a Dobe, GSD, Rott & Hovie is that they were more popular and had a larger working gene pool before the Show breeders got a hold on them so that is why you never hear/see of a good Hovie.


----------



## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Yes, I see a lot of Hovawarts that made PSA or Ring 3, that are competing at AWDF, that are used in KNPV and police departments. So surely they are not an off breed! Oh wait... :-k

I am not sure why I am arguing with a teenager with zero experience and a lot of opinions that's she's no doubt recycling from show breeder pages on the internet that say their dogs are "protective." :lol: Okay, here's my final advice. Go out to Jerry's club and watch them train. Eyes and ears open, mouth shut. Which shouldn't be hard, cause Jerry won't let you get a word in anyways. :lol: (just kiddin', Jerry!) And get a nice pup from one of their GSDs. Hard to go wrong that way and they would be an excellent dog for learning. THEN if you really really want to get an off breed, go get yourself a Hovawart or whatever you like. I'd like to see the finished product. :smile:


----------



## Caitlin Beaumont (May 2, 2012)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Yes, I see a lot of Hovawarts that made PSA or Ring 3, that are competing at AWDF, that are used in KNPV and police departments. So surely they are not an off breed! Oh wait... :-k
> 
> I am not sure why I am arguing with a teenager with zero experience and a lot of opinions that's she's no doubt recycling from show breeder pages on the internet that say their dogs are "protective." :lol: Okay, here's my final advice. Go out to Jerry's club and watch them train. Eyes and ears open, mouth shut. Which shouldn't be hard, cause Jerry won't let you get a word in anyways. :lol: (just kiddin', Jerry!) And get a nice pup from one of their GSDs. Hard to go wrong that way and they would be an excellent dog for learning. THEN if you really really want to get an off breed, go get yourself a Hovawart or whatever you like. I'd like to see the finished product. :smile:


 
Nope I did not recycle anything. The breed was meant for protection, guarding the property. No they will likely never protect anything again because of how twisted the Show breeders have made them but hopefully the dedicated working breeders can improve or change that over time. You are being sarcastic but I never said I was going to get a Hovie, I was just interested, so you will not get to the "finished product", oh what a bummer. I do not want a GSD either.


----------



## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Caitlin Beaumont said:


> Nope I did not recycle anything. The breed was meant for protection, guarding the property. No they will likely never protect anything again because of how twisted the Show breeders have made them but hopefully the dedicated working breeders can improve or change that over time. You are being sarcastic but I never said I was going to get a Hovie, I was just interested, so you will not get to the "finished product", oh what a bummer. I do not want a GSD either.




You really might want to get a little _"Go out to Jerry's club and watch them train" _under your belt.


----------



## Caitlin Beaumont (May 2, 2012)

Connie Sutherland said:


> You really might want to get a little _"Go out to Jerry's club and watch them train" _under your belt.


 
I'm trying! I tried setting up an appointment but the dates we had conflicted what he was doing so he said just call him back whenever the 26th approaches. The other trainer is having a knpv litter around June 24th so I will get to meet puppies & Adults, and learn things also. This "mystery" trainer has been to Holland and trains Police k9s/PP.


----------



## Megan Bays (Oct 10, 2008)

Caitlin Beaumont said:


> Megan Bays with Kole Mountain kennels does not have PH1 titled dogs and is in the US but their stud Bor is a police k9 and their other male Rabbit, was going to be titled but did not due to an injury.


Hi Caitlin,

Our Rabbit does have his PH1 with a score of 403 and worked as a police dog on the Flevoland police department before having to be retired early due to a torn ligament. 

I think you have quite a bit of research left to do, and a whole lot of the seeing stuff in person kind. It sounds like you are trying to make a good start on it by finding a training group to visit. 

Best of luck with your search.


----------



## Caitlin Beaumont (May 2, 2012)

Megan Bays said:


> Hi Caitlin,
> 
> Our Rabbit does have his PH1 with a score of 403 and worked as a police dog on the Flevoland police department before having to be retired early due to a torn ligament.
> 
> ...


Oops sorry about that Megan. Yes I have a ton of stuff to see and learn... you can see that through some of my posts, but to learn you gotta ask and do research. I am excited to work with Jerry and the group. Thanks


----------



## Jessica Kromer (Nov 12, 2009)

Caitlin, you are making a lot of definitive statements without the experiences.... 

You sound an awful lot like my teenager who thinks and talks like he knows everything but still knows that he needs to defer just enough to not come across like a know-it-all with those who actually have experience. We smile at him affectionately (but strangers just roll their eyes at his cockiness) and let him figure out how little he actually knows. You will too. Hahaha! Actually, on second thought, you both embarassingly sound like I did at that age! :-o  

But out of mild curiosity, why the hell do you think you need a PPD. Short of living in the ghetto with weekly drive-bys or being a pop star with an international fan base and 20+ stalkers that try to creep through your window at night, I can't see why a 17 year old would need one besides the cool factor. Heck, I actually can't think of many responsible trainers that would put a PPD in the hands of most any teenager at all, and especially one that has not had extensive experience handling a biting dog. 

In all honesty, and this comes from someone who was just like you and has a teenager just like you as well, take the dog you have and train it to heel first. I know he does lots of tricks, but do more. Put some titles on him. You can get a BH in Schutzhund (I know, it is _JUST_ a sport... [-( ) and then some tracking titles. Do some AKC OB and title him there. In the mean time, go to training (with the Lydas or a sport club of some other type) and do it religiously. Don't have scheduling conflicts and don't be too tired. Stay with a group for at LEAST six months! Help them set up blinds or obstacles. Be the distraction walking around when requested and help at events. Follow the TD around and LISTEN with your mouth shut (unless it is a question) to him giving advice to others. After a while, they may let you handle one of the trained dogs and even put on a sleeve (I know, you don't like those, but honestly, you have never put one on either  ) and decoy an experienced dog. 

Also, and I know this may go in one ear and out the other, a dog is a LONG term commitment. You don't even know for sure if you will ACTUALLY like doing this stuff. You likely will, but in the next few years, you will be graduating high school (!) and going off to college, meeting guys and having kids, starting a career and getting new hobbies, and lets be honest, money will likely be awfully tight... Having a dog that it bit trained is a HUGE liability (day to day, way more than owning guns) and is a whole lifestyle. It will require much support (and it doesn't sound like it will be coming from your parent, since they are not into this stuff) and many sacrifices. Even a trained dog needs to be worked regularly, for the rest of its working life. 

Go hang out with Jerry and participate with your eyes and ears only. If your mouth opens, it should be a question. 

And for the record  , a Hovawart is as "off breed" as it gets. My Rotties are also and so are Dobies, Pits, Bouvs, Riesenschnauzers and Boxers. Short of a GSD or a Mal/Dutch it is an off breed 

**Taking my Mommy apron off now**

Good luck honey! It is great that you want to get into dogs and bite work. You guys are our future and will direct where all these sports go!


----------



## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Jessica Kromer said:


> Caitlin, you are making a lot of definitive statements without the experiences....
> 
> You sound an awful lot like my teenager who thinks and talks like he knows everything but still knows that he needs to defer just enough to not come across like a know-it-all with those who actually have experience. We smile at him affectionately (but strangers just roll their eyes at his cockiness) and let him figure out how little he actually knows. You will too. Hahaha! Actually, on second thought, you both embarassingly sound like I did at that age! :-o
> 
> ...


+1 ;-)


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

I find it interesting that a younger person comes on who is obviously doing their homework and posed a QUESTION regarding a breed and potential function and everyone goes all condescending and parental on her. How many adults NEED a PPD that train in it. There is such a thing as train without interest in sport competition. She has obviously done her breed and trainer research which is more than I can say for a lot of adults that have come on here. She seems to be continuing her breed research by posing questions on this forum regarding videos and what others think of the breeds' potential. Didn't seem like she was sold one way or the other but was asking others opinions of the videos and the breed. Its kinda like that Vicky deja vu. As for "off breed," that's more a sport competition thing and goes to the trainers experience and abilities. 

And yes Caitlin, bouv is Bouvier des Flandres. I herd with I guess what is considered the "off breed." Find the breed and dog that best fits your personality, training views, lifestyle and purpose and then find the right trainer that is up to training it. If you want something for a particular purpose its probably a good idea to involve someone who has experience in that purpose who can help with selection and testing.

T


----------



## Jessica Kromer (Nov 12, 2009)

Hey, don't get me wrong, I think it is great that she's here in asking questions. And doing research before jumping into it is well. I think I even mentioned a couple times in my post above that asking questions with a great thing.

My only criticism, if you could call it that, is all of the definitive statements without any experience to back it up. And I guess the oppinions without experience as well. One can read many things online (like a Hovawart is protection breed) and find out real quick that reality is very different. And yes, asking here was a great first step in that reality. I think she got not only her answer, but a dose of reality as well. It may not have been the answer she was hoping for, and it may not have confirmed her preconceived notions, but perhaps it will be another kernel of knowledge. 

My message, or intended message anyway, was to open her mind a bit, learn more from more experienced people and get some personal experience (not internet learnin' only) before make assumptions, statements and decisions. I would hope that I would say the same to an adult newb as well


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

_*I am basically set on getting a knpv DS or Mal,* better for ppd, but curious about Hovawarts. I probably already answered my own question... but would still like some feedback especially if someone has ever worked with this breed._

The thread started with the above. Then there are posts 7,8, 13, 16-17, etc. She knows what she wants and why. She's researching breeds and venues/rules. She has contacted reputable trainers. And for all the talk of deterrence and get a rottie and caution against off breeds, she has already arrived at the conclusion that it would be best to get a dutchie or a mal. It must be the part about not being into game/sport bite work training. . . or she's 17 as the reason for "ohhhhhh, you're so young you cannot possibly know your own mind or decide you don't want to do something you haven't personally experienced??? Really???? It would be a cold day in hell before anyone talked me into skydiving and I have no intention of experiencing it before setting my mind against it. I say she's several steps ahead of the game and already past most mistakes adults make with the same interest. Research and participation, visit with trainers BEFORE we get the dog. Be still my heart. Gotta crush those young independent thinkers who post videos of dogs working and ask questions. I'm jealous. I wish she were local and interested in herding.

For me the only significance of her being 17 is that mommy or daddy would have to sign a release for her and/or doggie to participate in training.

T

Can you guess that I have a highly opinionated 17 year old. Gee, I wonder where he got that from. So the mommy in me says let them analyze and form opinions. The world has too many herd mentality folks anyway.


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Jessica Kromer said:


> My message, or intended message anyway, was to open her mind a bit, learn more from more experienced people and get some personal experience (not internet learnin' only) before make assumptions, statements and decisions. I would hope that I would say the same to an adult newb as well


I guess for me, everything that she says points to an individual who out to do just that--get personal experience, learn from experienced people, etc. Some venues are hours away and the internet is your best shot at seeing it. Doesn't mean you can't form an opinion as to whether or not its something you would like to explore and personally experience. I get your drift but seems like Caitlin has both feet firmly planted and a plan.

T


----------



## Jessica Kromer (Nov 12, 2009)

Now I might make it my goal to talk you into skydiving! So. Much. Fun ;-) :-D :-D :-D


----------



## Marta Wajngarten (Jul 30, 2006)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> I get your drift but seems like Caitlin has both feet firmly planted and a plan.
> 
> T


Until next week she decides that Bouvs are super cool and awesome and bestest best thing evah and would make a killer dog to be seen hanging out with cos they make all that serious noise and all. 

I'm all for learning and researching but I see some one with no experience who acts like she already knows enough to put experienced people in place because she can copy paste regurgitate what she's read on the internet with absolutely zero experience. 

Caitlin came on to the Dutchie forum raving about how she wants one, then it was Dogos because they're big and awesome at protection because she saw a vid of one doing protection work on YouTube, then it was American Bulldogs, first the dog would only go on hikes and would protect her while on the trails, oh and the dog had to be as big as they can get because only big dogs can protect people, then it was Ringsports, then she found out it takes money and travel time to train them so she can't do them any more... so it's on to PPDs now cos they're the real thing and she doesn't want a fake sport dog. Each time she was super sure she was set on doing what she wanted to do until she moved on to the next thing she was super sure she wanted to do. She was told training her parent's current dog would be a good place to start to get some dog experience behind her belt before getting a KNPV Dutchie, but I get a sense that he's too lame to waste time on and has no valuable lessons to learn from. 

It's actually a bit annoying and more about me me me want want want look at me I'm a teenager, yup a teenager so make sure you look at me, and I'm getting a KNPV Dutchhie, yup a killer KNPV Dutchie, so look at me me me! and it's going to be better then all your fake sport dogs... there's trying to learn and there's having an opinion and then there's being a know it all attention whore.


----------



## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

We're facing a case of not:

"buyer beware", but "breeder beware", instead...lolol


----------



## mike finn (Jan 5, 2011)

Marta Wajngarten said:


> Until next week she decides that Bouvs are super cool and awesome and bestest best thing evah and would make a killer dog to be seen hanging out with cos they make all that serious noise and all.
> 
> I'm all for learning and researching but I see some one with no experience who acts like she already knows enough to put experienced people in place because she can copy paste regurgitate what she's read on the internet with absolutely zero experience.
> 
> ...


 Is that necessary? I am glad there is a teen ager into dogs like she is. She seems like a nice kid. This is just how a lot of kids think, they get excited about different things and then something else later.


----------



## Caitlin Beaumont (May 2, 2012)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> _*I am basically set on getting a knpv DS or Mal,* better for ppd, but curious about Hovawarts. I probably already answered my own question... but would still like some feedback especially if someone has ever worked with this breed._
> 
> The thread started with the above. Then there are posts 7,8, 13, 16-17, etc. She knows what she wants and why. She's researching breeds and venues/rules. She has contacted reputable trainers. And for all the talk of deterrence and get a rottie and caution against off breeds, she has already arrived at the conclusion that it would be best to get a dutchie or a mal. It must be the part about not being into game/sport bite work training. . . or she's 17 as the reason for "ohhhhhh, you're so young you cannot possibly know your own mind or decide you don't want to do something you haven't personally experienced??? Really???? It would be a cold day in hell before anyone talked me into skydiving and I have no intention of experiencing it before setting my mind against it. I say she's several steps ahead of the game and already past most mistakes adults make with the same interest. Research and participation, visit with trainers BEFORE we get the dog. Be still my heart. Gotta crush those young independent thinkers who post videos of dogs working and ask questions. I'm jealous. I wish she were local and interested in herding.
> 
> ...


 
Thank you. Trust me I get his e-v-e-r-ysingle time I join somewhere, everyone does but because of my age and inexperience, and how I can be horrible at explaining something even online, I get grilled real good :lol:. Kind of another reason I put of joining LOL. I can't even financially afford a dog until 1-2 years after working so I will not need my parents to sign anything until then becasue I will be at least 18 before I get my dog.


----------



## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

Meanwhile, 

Join a club, learn to decoy and watch people handling dogs. This is the best preparation you can get before owning a working dog. 

After understanding the subtle communication when decoying and handling you'll be able to realize the type of dog you prefer and for what reason. 

Last advice: 
Commitment to learning and making a proper decision.


Regards


----------



## Jessica Kromer (Nov 12, 2009)

You get it because of your demeanor.  Coming across as cocky with out reason. It ruffles feathers of some and insults others. I don't think you are doing it on purpose, but chill a bit.

Stop telling people what is what until you have actually had some experience under your belt. Keep ASKING QUESTIONS, and DON'T make statements. Listen and learn.


----------



## Caitlin Beaumont (May 2, 2012)

mike finn said:


> This is just how a lot of kids think, they get excited about different things and then something else later.


 
You are correct. But believe me when I say I am done and finished with that stage, I waited until I was to join this forum and had a very good idea of what breeds I wanted and that activited I wanted to do with them. I do have "backup breeds" just in case I cannot get a Dutch or Mal, basically if my breeders don't think I'm experienced enough and refuse to sell me a pup. But that is not getting excited, anything other than a Dutch or Mal is 2nd best to me so it's the opposite of excited, and changing my plans.


----------



## Caitlin Beaumont (May 2, 2012)

Tiago Fontes said:


> Meanwhile,
> 
> Join a club, learn to decoy and watch people handling dogs. This is the best preparation you can get before owning a working dog.
> 
> ...




I'm actually pretty interested in decoying, but at my weight the dog would knock me down really easy Lol. But Thank you for the advice and I am trying to do everything you said.


----------



## Caitlin Beaumont (May 2, 2012)

Jessica Kromer said:


> Caitlin, you are making a lot of definitive statements without the experiences....
> 
> You sound an awful lot like my teenager who thinks and talks like he knows everything but still knows that he needs to defer just enough to not come across like a know-it-all with those who actually have experience. We smile at him affectionately (but strangers just roll their eyes at his cockiness) and let him figure out how little he actually knows. You will too. Hahaha! Actually, on second thought, you both embarassingly sound like I did at that age! :-o
> 
> ...


Thank You :smile:. Funny to see how everyone acted like me as a kid too!!! You gave some great advice!


----------



## Caitlin Beaumont (May 2, 2012)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> I find it interesting that a younger person comes on who is obviously doing their homework and posed a QUESTION regarding a breed and potential function and everyone goes all condescending and parental on her. How many adults NEED a PPD that train in it. There is such a thing as train without interest in sport competition. She has obviously done her breed and trainer research which is more than I can say for a lot of adults that have come on here. She seems to be continuing her breed research by posing questions on this forum regarding videos and what others think of the breeds' potential. Didn't seem like she was sold one way or the other but was asking others opinions of the videos and the breed. Its kinda like that Vicky deja vu. As for "off breed," that's more a sport competition thing and goes to the trainers experience and abilities.
> 
> And yes Caitlin, bouv is Bouvier des Flandres. I herd with I guess what is considered the "off breed." Find the breed and dog that best fits your personality, training views, lifestyle and purpose and then find the right trainer that is up to training it. If you want something for a particular purpose its probably a good idea to involve someone who has experience in that purpose who can help with selection and testing.
> 
> T


It's Ok. I understand where they are coming from. After getting this at least 10 times before I have learned to expect it and accept it. At the same time I need to make sure I do not come off to cocky or like a brat and offend someone. Everyone here is giving great advice one way or another and I am thankful for the replies even though I may not want to hear it, or already know it Lol. I really do think the Dutch is as close as a dog can get to my lifestyle and am excited to work with the breed.


----------



## Caitlin Beaumont (May 2, 2012)

Jessica Kromer said:


> Now I might make it my goal to talk you into skydiving! So. Much. Fun ;-) :-D :-D :-D


 
My Mom went skydiving a few years ago. When I turn 18 I want to also! Seemed scary as crap but like a lot of fun!

Here she is: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DnLqnlfO1j8&list=FLw7UQMWZG6WXH8exdI4nyCA&index=15&feature=plpp_video


----------



## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

back to dogs for a min Caitlin 
i'm 60 plus and i'm not afraid to admit that a lot of the reason we like and have dogs is to show how cool they are and brag about the cool things they can do
-- regardless of your age now or whenever, a smallish girl able to control a bad ass "Dutch" trained as a PPD is WAY up there in the cool factor, especially when you can casually mention as he is laying at your feet that he can be a manstopper whenever you throw the switch, etc etc 

-- well, since that will take awhile, here is a cool behavior you can impress anyone with NOW that i just stumbled upon by accident a few days ago and it doesn't even take the knowledge to title a dog to master

-- train whatever you got to back up a step or two while holding a sit...any dog will do, but make sure it is not so butt ugly that no one will ever ask to pet it when you are out

the stranger asks if they can pet it ...say yes but have them sit down and plant themselves and wait ... bring the dog away from them and line up the dog so they will back up right next to them.... sit the dog facing you, 6-7 paces away from them...start telling the dog to back up...when the dog is even with them give them the green light to pet it
- they WILL think you are a master trainer
- but wait; you're not done impressing them yet 
then whip out a tug, toss it and have a vigorous tug session with a super crisp out if you happen to have a working dog with you....equally as impressive
-----post it on you tube


----------



## Lisa Brazeau (May 6, 2010)

Tiago has the best advice, yet. 

Suit up, and shut up. LOL A good knock on your ass will do you good. Seriously. I think all these 'strong' opinions you have will evolve once you are INvolved.


----------



## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

Lisa Brazeau said:


> Tiago has the best advice, yet.
> 
> Suit up, and shut up. LOL A good knock on your ass will do you good. Seriously. I think all these 'strong' opinions you have will evolve once you are INvolved.


 
Thanks... It worked for me, so I figured it could work for other people ;-) lol.


----------



## Lisa Brazeau (May 6, 2010)

Me TOO! I'm still attending the School of Hard Knocks with this crazy Mal-o-mine.


----------



## Caitlin Beaumont (May 2, 2012)

Marta Wajngarten said:


> Until next week she decides that Bouvs are super cool and awesome and bestest best thing evah and would make a killer dog to be seen hanging out with cos they make all that serious noise and all.
> 
> I'm all for learning and researching but I see some one with no experience who acts like she already knows enough to put experienced people in place because she can copy paste regurgitate what she's read on the internet with absolutely zero experience.
> 
> ...


So it is wrong to like other breeds? You are telling me I need to NEVER change breeds, even frequently, because I grow up and learn that other ones do not fit my lifestyle as good as the others, and that being interested, god forbid, in other breeds is any other breeds is CRAZY?!?! Thank You for telling me that unwritten rule that no one has told me yet. 

At first this seemed like a funny post just making fun of me and other teens in general... Then it just got really nasty and innapropiate. At first I cried at being made fun of so publicly and was not going to even reply. Sounds like you just replied on impulsion and did not think about how hurtful this could come across. It's Ok Marta, I'm fine now. Glad to see how newbies get treated like crap on here. I can bet you were just like me, everyone else has already admitted it, when you were my age only difference is you did not have these forums for everyone to witness your mistakes.

Here is the whole HUGE story if anyone wants to bore themselves reading it, because obviously while joining this forum another member needs to do a background check and spill out all their past info for everyone to ridicule... Anyways here it is:

I liked dogs. I liked the "big bad" 150 lb dogs. As I grew older I realized that I wanted my dogs to be a little more agile and weigh less. So I started to like Dogos and American Bulldogs and Rotties were nice too. For some stupid reason I was obsessed with 'bite force and all that crap'. I got older, again, and was more into running, mountain, biking and realized I needed even more ahtletic dogs, and started learning about all the cool activites you could do with a dog. I did not really let go of the idea of owning a Dogo till only a little while ago becasue I really liked the breed, but knew there were better ones out there for my lifestyle, I got into Dutchies/Mals, GSD's, Vizsla's, and a whole other truck load of dog breeds. Somewhere along there I got into PPD but thought there were no good trainers locally. So I went with FR. I was excited but then everyone on the DS forum kept talking about speding a couple hundred a month, and that was just for the training classes, I got freaked out and before doing any sort of math assumed that was what I was going to spend also and told everyone I could literally not afford the working Dutchie, and I did not like the FCI ones. So I thought for my first breed I will have to go with a show Dogo. I don't really even remember what I was thinking during this period but I talked to some Dogo people. Fast forward>>>> I could not stop thinking about Dutchies and decided to see how much I really would be spending if I did everything, bought a Dutchie and did PPD, I was surrised that I could make it work. That is vaguely how everything happened. I do not remember every breed or thing I thought/wanted since I was 14. 

I cannot even type it all down becasue it was SO much. But I can honestly say I want a Dutchie or Mal.


----------



## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

In response to your original post about Hovawarts, I'm not familiar with the breed, but I did find this interesting Hovawart thread on Leerburg from 2005. 

http://leerburg.com/webboard/printthread.php?topic_id=10215

Incidently I don't think Marta's post was nasty or innapropriate. On the contrary, she pretty much said exactly what you said in your rebuttal. She's a straight shooter and doesn't sugar coat anything, which is a good thing.


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

The mastiff and bullmastiff are "estate guardian" breeds as well, manstoppers 

Before I jumped into the Presa, I tried to research those 2 breeds and found a very small handful of individual BM doing "protection" work. and no mastiffs whatsoever. I talked to every breeder I could contact, and could find no one that was testing or working their dogs.

The Hovawart looks to me like a terrible choice for PP dog.

You need to find breeders that are testing and working their dogs, as a starting point, even more so with an offbreed, and by testing I dont mean doing prey work and biting a sleeve, I mean standing up to a man and fighting him. That is if you are looking for a PP dog, and not a dog that will just get by doing sport protection work.

I am far from an expert on KNPV lines, but dont believe everything you have read here. There are lots of high quality dogs being bred by the KNPV, that most sport only people will never see or hear about. Whether they would be a good fit for you, is not a given of course.

There are a few KNPV lined dogs at the top of the national scene in both French Ring and PSA sports..and countless others doing handler protection and apprehension as police dogs, and PPD.

What is your definition of PPD Caitlin? That will determine the type of dog you should be looking for, one that can do that.


----------



## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

go to working-dog.eu and look up some of the videos of hovawarts working...i think there a few breeding working versions..



Sent from my SCH-I510 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## Doug Zaga (Mar 28, 2010)

Caitlin Beaumont said:


> So it is wrong to like other breeds? You are telling me I need to NEVER change breeds, even frequently, because I grow up and learn that other ones do not fit my lifestyle as good as the others, and that being interested, god forbid, in other breeds is any other breeds is CRAZY?!?! Thank You for telling me that unwritten rule that no one has told me yet.
> 
> At first this seemed like a funny post just making fun of me and other teens in general... Then it just got really nasty and innapropiate. At first I cried at being made fun of so publicly and was not going to even reply. Sounds like you just replied on impulsion and did not think about how hurtful this could come across. It's Ok Marta, I'm fine now. Glad to see how newbies get treated like crap on here. I can bet you were just like me, everyone else has already admitted it, when you were my age only difference is you did not have these forums for everyone to witness your mistakes.
> 
> ...


 
Shhhhhh 

..... give it some time and your mind will change again, and again, and again..... 

Even at your age the changes in position should be a concern...too quick to decide then decide the deicion was not the correct decision and time to decide over again.. kind of like mania ;-)


----------



## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

what others have said goes for me too : i don't sugar coat things either.... 

so, Caitlin, i tried the nice approach and actually gave you something to do
in a very non confrontational manner to gain some experience 

anyway...on to working dogs since that suggestion didn't float your boat

you have mentioned breeds you liked and researched .... so what ?? that really doesn't mean squat IMNSHO....how many of these breeds you are talking about have you actually laid hands on and what have you done with them to like or not like about them ?
how many dogs have you owned and what have you accomplished with them ? what could they DO ???? sport or non sport ???
- i would certainly not expect anyone here to care about a breed i have researched unless i asked a Q about it...why should you ?? just to make conversation ?? well this aint a chat line \\/

so you are in to PPD now ... great ... like i asked before and has recently been asked by Joby ...WTH exactly does "PPD" mean to you and who exactly are your PPD trainers ? what have they said they are going to do with you regarding gaining PPD experience and what are their PPD credentials ???
....and since you haven't had a whole bunch of experience with hard dogs who bite and knock people over, why start with an area that is VERY tricky to train safely that has no clearly established "certifications", which may be due to the liabilities involved ???

moving on..... 
i know young people that are smart and old people that are dumb and narrow minded....AND vice versa 
- but i'm sure you are old enuff to have heard that "opinions are like ......"
- everyone is entitled to one or two...so what ???
- you have proven more than once that you have a problem with "being treated like a kid" and have been prepared to deal with that by adding //lol// ... i'm not impressed 
- the vast majority of posters that i have become familiar with on this list could probably care less how old you are .... it is YOU that seems to be so sensitive about it ](*,)

in my short time here, there have been a few younger people join and show a lot of motivation for a few posts and state what they like and what they wanna do ... but i can't think of any that are still contributing and posting, or keeping the list informed of their progress or problems. hope you are an exception

gotta have thick skin here .... i have been slammed for some dumb posts ... no biggy

i've learned a lot here even tho i already thought i knew a lot

my advice :
- get a dog 
- start working the dog with a PLAN in your head on where you're going
.... ask for help when the problems show up

.... and by all means let everyone know the breeder if it ends up being perfect with no problems along the way


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Marta Wajngarten said:


> Until next week she decides that Bouvs are super cool and awesome and bestest best thing evah and would make a killer dog to be seen hanging out with cos they make all that serious noise and all.
> 
> I'm all for learning and researching but I see some one with no experience who acts like she already knows enough to put experienced people in place because she can copy paste regurgitate what she's read on the internet with absolutely zero experience.
> 
> ...


Well the first thing I would tell her that making a lot of noise is a show and that my bouv is mostly silent. Barking is an indication of frustration, not proection seriousness--at least with mine. Look for a cold fixed stare. For me you describe a person that has already gone through a learning process and I'm sure she'll go through some more. I skipped the fly by the seat of the pants to hell with the consequences stage. If I had my mommy hat on I'd tell Caitlin to burn her Facebook password the limit the internet thing. Go hang out at a club and be the equipment person. Help out at the trials. If a breeder is smart and not just interested in kennel clean out they will gauge her commitment and talk to the parents. Again I've seen too many adults who bounce from one sport to another with minimal involvement and claim all the experience and knowledge in the world. Bottom line she posted videos and initially asked for others opinions. If she's the type that can flit from one breed/sport/interest to another, that's between her mommy, daddy and the breeder. How many adults are in to the bad ass dog thing? One of my problems with the run the newbie and the seemingly weak off mentality is that there isn't that much interest in working dogs. They come here and some of the least experienced right off the bat tell them they are stupid. They already know they don't have the knowledge and the experience which is why they are here. 17 year old kids live in the moment and are self centered. They get excited about something and RUN their mouths. I know this because I have one and he has the added problem of being male. My kid was 8 when he announced he wanted a dog. I said fine. You train it, feed it, bathe it and when you pack your bags, take it with you. He paused for a minute and then told me that maybe he wasn't old enough. He has a cat. 

I don't know her life internet history and don't really care. If I were selling her a dog then I'd have to delve a little deeper. Otherwise, its just another person interested in dogs and trying to figure out what she wants. As for the skydiving--hahaha--never. I've also watched enough decoying to know I don't have it like that other than working a puppy. I'm not into pain and can see it coming a mile away.

T


----------



## Caitlin Beaumont (May 2, 2012)

rick smith said:


> back to dogs for a min Caitlin
> i'm 60 plus and i'm not afraid to admit that a lot of the reason we like and have dogs is to show how cool they are and brag about the cool things they can do
> -- regardless of your age now or whenever, a smallish girl able to control a bad ass "Dutch" trained as a PPD is WAY up there in the cool factor, especially when you can casually mention as he is laying at your feet that he can be a manstopper whenever you throw the switch, etc etc
> 
> ...


 
Haha yea those dogs are awesome. I will try that trick today. Gunner has never done any sort of backup things so this will be interesting. Wonder how long this will take for the old man to learn


----------



## Caitlin Beaumont (May 2, 2012)

Lisa Brazeau said:


> Tiago has the best advice, yet.
> 
> Suit up, and shut up. LOL A good knock on your ass will do you good. Seriously. I think all these 'strong' opinions you have will evolve once you are INvolved.


For a good laugh I will try it one day and get it on video for everyone to see.


----------



## Caitlin Beaumont (May 2, 2012)

susan tuck said:


> In response to your original post about Hovawarts, I'm not familiar with the breed, but I did find this interesting Hovawart thread on Leerburg from 2005.
> 
> http://leerburg.com/webboard/printthread.php?topic_id=10215
> 
> Incidently I don't think Marta's post was nasty or innapropriate. On the contrary, she pretty much said exactly what you said in your rebuttal. She's a straight shooter and doesn't sugar coat anything, which is a good thing.


 
Wow did not know Leerburg webboard was around that long. That was an interesting thread. That is fine if Marta is a straight shooter. I just don't like her remarks about me being an attention-whore because I used my age and typing sentences as if I actually talked like that, which I don't.


----------



## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Oops.

Reminder: We don't link to threads on other boards. 

I don't know if we miss any .... but that's the goal here. Other board threads stay on other boards. THANKS!


----------



## Caitlin Beaumont (May 2, 2012)

Joby Becker said:


> What is your definition of PPD Caitlin? That will determine the type of dog you should be looking for, one that can do that.


 
A dog that will protect the handler on command against someone trying to physically harm them. A breed meant for protection, not an off breed, and that still has good strong working lines with breeders focused towards these goals. More specifically a dog with the right drives, I do not know all the drives but I know you got Prey, Civil, Active agression, Defense... That is all I can think of and no I do not know the difference betwen them. I did but forgot.


----------



## Caitlin Beaumont (May 2, 2012)

will fernandez said:


> go to working-dog.eu and look up some of the videos of hovawarts working...i think there a few breeding working versions..
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I510 using Tapatalk 2


Thanks Will, I'll go check them out.


----------



## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

"Attention seeking" is what lots of folks see when someone with zero experience makes declarations and proclamations based on what they've read on the internet. That's how it comes across to many. 

People with zero experience should probably be asking questions .... having nothing useful to make declarations about.

BTW, I remember being seventeen and knowing everything. :lol: Luckily, there was no internet to host my clueless stream of opinions.


----------



## Caitlin Beaumont (May 2, 2012)

Doug Zaga said:


> Shhhhhh
> 
> ..... give it some time and your mind will change again, and again, and again.....
> 
> Even at your age the changes in position should be a concern...too quick to decide then decide the deicion was not the correct decision and time to decide over again.. kind of like mania ;-)


But I have gone through the whole change my mind process, gosh it lasted since I was 14 up until this year.


----------



## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Haven't you guys figured it out yet?
It's Jeff O pretending to be a 17 year old girl from Georgia ;-)


----------



## Caitlin Beaumont (May 2, 2012)

rick smith said:


> what others have said goes for me too : i don't sugar coat things either....
> 
> so, Caitlin, i tried the nice approach and actually gave you something to do
> in a very non confrontational manner to gain some experience
> ...


Don't know what IMNSHO means. No I have not laid my hands on anything except the mutts in my neighborhood. I am trying to meet and greet and learn. Tell my parents to drive me somewhere, if it has to do with dogs, and they say no. Not much I can do when I am filling out an aplication for every job out there so I can give them the gas money so they cannot complain. And when no other people want to take me, I just do "2nd best" and research some more offline. I'm _very_ lucky and grateful they are taking me to the Trainer an hour away from me. If I get really lucky I will get to go to SK9S this summer. When I mentioned the other trainer an hour away from me they said "Good I did want to drive 2 hours and 30. mins away anyways!" Still a little freaked to tell them that I only meant that we have to visit two trainers now! I forgot that I want to take him Dock Diving this summer too....that is also an hour away. 

I answered the PPD on Joby's reply.

Trainer #1 Jerry Lyda
Trainer #2 Vom Warsney Kennels http://www.facebook.com/#!/profile.php?id=100001428617865

My only dog has been Gunner. He just plays ball, does average tricks, and goes for walks. Nuthin special about him. Would be overjoyed to show more of what we can do at other places and clubs but cannot go there.


----------



## Caitlin Beaumont (May 2, 2012)

Connie Sutherland said:


> "Attention seeking" is what lots of folks see when someone with zero experience makes declarations and proclamations based on what they've read on the internet. That's how it comes across to many.
> 
> People with zero experience should probably be asking questions .... having nothing useful to make declarations about.
> 
> BTW, I remember being seventeen and knowing everything. :lol: Luckily, there was no internet to host my clueless stream of opinions.


 
Hey maybe I can try this, and any other teens too: :-#. Don't know how long it will work since I have never done it before!


----------



## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

Connie Sutherland;337875
BTW said:


> +1
> 
> Wanted to jump in, but this pretty much sums up what I think.


----------



## Doug Zaga (Mar 28, 2010)

Caitlin Beaumont said:


> But I have gone through the whole change my mind process, gosh it lasted since I was 14 up until this year.


And it will continue to change...the normal make up my mind and change it every 14 minutes... :-D


----------



## Caitlin Beaumont (May 2, 2012)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Haven't you guys figured it out yet?
> It's Jeff O pretending to be a 17 year old girl from Georgia ;-)


I have heard of that guys name before... I'm scared to ask who he is?


----------



## Caitlin Beaumont (May 2, 2012)

Doug Zaga said:


> And it will continue to change...the normal make up my mind and change it every 14 minutes... :-D


 
Mine is more like 15 minutes.... Oh wait? Why am I on this forum again :-k... I saw this video of a Clumber spaniel andddd....Just kidding.


----------



## Doug Zaga (Mar 28, 2010)

Connie Sutherland said:


> "Attention seeking" is what lots of folks see when someone with zero experience makes declarations and proclamations based on what they've read on the internet. That's how it comes across to many.
> 
> *People with zero experience should probably be asking questions .... having nothing useful to make declarations about.*
> 
> BTW, I remember being seventeen and knowing everything. :lol: Luckily, there was no internet to host my_ clueless stream of opinions_.





Caitlin Beaumont said:


> Hey maybe I can try this, and any other teens too: :-#. Don't know how long it will work since I have never done it before!


Well, now you have a new mission....


----------



## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

leslie cassian said:


> +1
> 
> Wanted to jump in, but this pretty much sums up what I think.


And aren't you glad that there's nothing from when you were seventeen on the internet (which is forever) to be dredged up and snickered about now?

I know I sure am. :lol: :lol:


----------



## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

I kinda miss the angst and arrogance of youth... 

Then again, my dear old Dad was fond of reminding us kids "Better to be silent and be thought a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt." Never hurts to remind myself that from time to time.


----------



## Doug Zaga (Mar 28, 2010)

leslie cassian said:


> "Better to be silent and be thought a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt."


Caitlin... pay attention. ^^^^^ ](*,)


----------



## Caitlin Beaumont (May 2, 2012)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Well the first thing I would tell her that making a lot of noise is a show and that my bouv is mostly silent. Barking is an indication of frustration, not proection seriousness--at least with mine. Look for a cold fixed stare. For me you describe a person that has already gone through a learning process and I'm sure she'll go through some more. I skipped the fly by the seat of the pants to hell with the consequences stage. If I had my mommy hat on I'd tell Caitlin to burn her Facebook password the limit the internet thing. Go hang out at a club and be the equipment person. Help out at the trials. If a breeder is smart and not just interested in kennel clean out they will gauge her commitment and talk to the parents. Again I've seen too many adults who bounce from one sport to another with minimal involvement and claim all the experience and knowledge in the world. Bottom line she posted videos and initially asked for others opinions. If she's the type that can flit from one breed/sport/interest to another, that's between her mommy, daddy and the breeder. How many adults are in to the bad ass dog thing? One of my problems with the run the newbie and the seemingly weak off mentality is that there isn't that much interest in working dogs. They come here and some of the least experienced right off the bat tell them they are stupid. They already know they don't have the knowledge and the experience which is why they are here. 17 year old kids live in the moment and are self centered. They get excited about something and RUN their mouths. I know this because I have one and he has the added problem of being male. My kid was 8 when he announced he wanted a dog. I said fine. You train it, feed it, bathe it and when you pack your bags, take it with you. He paused for a minute and then told me that maybe he wasn't old enough. He has a cat.
> 
> I don't know her life internet history and don't really care. If I were selling her a dog then I'd have to delve a little deeper. Otherwise, its just another person interested in dogs and trying to figure out what she wants. As for the skydiving--hahaha--never. I've also watched enough decoying to know I don't have it like that other than working a puppy. I'm not into pain and can see it coming a mile away.
> 
> T


Yes I have heard that making a lot of noise does not mean the dog is some sort of protection monster. I have heard of that scary cold stare too... I read a thread on Wibo, knpv dutchie, one time and how he does that. I'm really trying to visit clubs and trainers but it takes time to convince my parents to take me. I have a similar story as your own son except my parents gave into my cries: I wanted a Guinea Pig. Got one and "loved" for a little while and then the facination was over as soon as it began. Freaky Girl as I named her was cool but not any fun becasue I could never do anything with her like I could a dog.


----------



## Doug Zaga (Mar 28, 2010)

leslie cassian said:


> "Better to be silent and be thought a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt."





Doug Zaga said:


> Caitlin... pay attention. ^^^^^ ](*,)





Caitlin Beaumont said:


> I have a similar story as your own son except my parents gave into my cries: I wanted a Guinea Pig. Got one and "loved" for a little while and then the facination was over as soon as it began. Freaky Girl as I named her was cool but not any fun becasue I could never do anything with her like I could a dog.


 
I guess not!!! :?:


----------



## Caitlin Beaumont (May 2, 2012)

Doug Zaga said:


> I guess not!!! :?:


 
I might have been 9 when I got her. All kids do that stuff


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

I would work with your trainer to have him help you select a suitable pup/dog...if he is willing to help.

Many of the breeds you are looking at "could" make good protection dogs as you state your definition to be, if you find the right dog, but many of those also will not be suited to top level sport performance, and can be more difficult to train for sport.

As far as off-breed goes, off-breed to me means Non-herder..not mal not GSD not DS...

lots of breeds can offer dogs suitable for real handler protection, but those same dogs may not be as easily trained for sport program training. 

I have seen some good Dogo Argentinos for example that were Protection trained. but the Dogo Argentino is not really bred for protection.

The problem you will run into is that while many breeds supposedly have a function of "protection", the real truth is very few breeders (when looking at entire pool of breeders for that breed) are testing and breeding for that function...this is true for traditional type (herders) and off-breeds alike...dogs that can do bitework, and "protective" dogs, do not necessarily equal a "protection" dog, depending on your definitions and expectations...

If you are looking into Mal/DS, Jerry or whoever would be doing your training, would be a good place to start looking for help finding a dog.


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Marta Wajngarten said:


> Until next week she decides that Bouvs are super cool and awesome and bestest best thing evah and would make a killer dog to be seen hanging out with cos they make all that serious noise and all.


Terrible video, a bunch of unsafe stuff going on here, as well as dog was obviously not conditioned to a muzzle, but looks pretty serious to me...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IAqYaBP5jZA


----------



## Caitlin Beaumont (May 2, 2012)

Joby Becker said:


> I would work with your trainer to have him help you select a suitable pup/dog...if he is willing to help.
> 
> Many of the breeds you are looking at "could" make good protection dogs as you state your definition to be, if you find the right dog, but many of those also will not be suited to top level sport performance, and can be more difficult to train for sport.
> 
> ...


Yep I already asked both trainers to help me decide what "level" of dog would be the best for me. 

It is fine if the dog is not suited for sport because that is not what I am after. I know some dogs do protect but suck at sport and vice versa.


----------



## Caitlin Beaumont (May 2, 2012)

Joby Becker said:


> Terrible video, a bunch of unsafe stuff going on here, as well as dog was obviously not conditioned to a muzzle, but looks pretty serious to me...
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IAqYaBP5jZA


 
This is a video I would like someone explain what is going wrong here. Like you pointed out I can see the dog does not like the muzzle, now is the decoy doing anything wrong? What do you mean unsafe?


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Caitlin Beaumont said:


> This is a video I would like someone explain what is going wrong here. Like you pointed out I can see the dog does not like the muzzle, now is the decoy doing anything wrong? What do you mean unsafe?


dont try that at home, that is what I mean by unsafe.  LOL


----------



## Caitlin Beaumont (May 2, 2012)

Joby Becker said:


> dont try that at home, that is what I mean by unsafe.  LOL


Haha Ok. Looking a the video again.. Why were they doing bitework right next to the street? I Can think of a lot of more appropriate places to do that.


----------



## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Caitlin Beaumont said:


> This is a video I would like someone explain what is going wrong here. Like you pointed out I can see the dog does not like the muzzle, now is the decoy doing anything wrong? What do you mean unsafe?


being new to bite work i can't explain the technicalities but what seemed crazy to me, and i mean absolutely crazy is taking a dog that will target anywhere on the body in a muzzle then the decoy coming back with a dam sleeve to re-engage the unmuzzled dog while it is full blown civil fight mode!!!!!!

that is nuts for obvious reasons. 

again new to this so could be out of line. noone else seemed to comment much?


----------



## Caitlin Beaumont (May 2, 2012)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> being new to bite work i can't explain the technicalities but what seemed crazy to me, and i mean absolutely crazy is taking a dog that will target anywhere on the body in a muzzle then the decoy coming back with a dam sleeve to re-engage the unmuzzled dog while it is full blown civil fight mode!!!!!!
> 
> that is nuts for obvious reasons.
> 
> again new to this so could be out of line. noone else seemed to comment much?


 
Everyone was just interested in the teen argument... I am still getting views but no more feedback, especially on this video. So how can you tell that this is civil, as much as you can possibly tell anything from a video, and not just any other sort of drives? How is civil different from other drives? I will go look for this in other threads so don't worry if you cannot answer it that good or at all. I thought I was the only one who thought it it looked like the dog would have gone for more than just the arm/sleeve.


----------



## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Caitlin Beaumont said:


> Everyone was just interested in the teen argument... I am still getting views but no more feedback, especially on this video. So how can you tell that this is civil, as much as you can possibly tell anything from a video, and not just any other sort of drives? How is civil different from other drives? I will go look for this in other threads so don't worry if you cannot answer it that good or at all. I thought I was the only one who thought it it looked like the dog would have gone for more than just the arm/sleeve.


 
all just my noob opinion and dont ask me about drives i know zip, i say civil in the most obvious way due to no bite suit or sleeve that the dog sees as an invitation to a game of rough tug, that right there will leave most dogs confused and unsure on what to do next, even a strong comp dog in any venue.

next i say civil cos of the clear intensity of the dog wanting to get at and dominate the guy with evrything it had anywhere it could get at him. 

now next comment is where i am out of my depth and guessing; i say the dog was not real clear headed, like an enraged bar room brawler compared to a cool pro boxer.

that last comment i am least sure about, i do not know what the word for oppositte of a clear head is.

that decoy has more er braveness than me approaching that dog with a sleeve, why i wouldn't ever try being a sch decoy, to many other targets for the dog - i guess thats why they train them or sumthin?


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

good points pete...kinda what I was thinking, that and if the muzzle popped off...have no clue who the decoy was but didnt look really experienced to me. 

I wish I could find guys willing to do that at my local pub


----------



## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Joby Becker said:


> good points pete...kinda what I was thinking, that and if the muzzle popped off...have no clue who the decoy was but didnt look really experienced to me.
> 
> *I wish I could find guys willing to do that at my local pub*


 
easy, if ya got a dog like that, and i know you do Joby, it will just cost you a few more beers :razz:, i find the irish pubs are the best decoy depots.

on another note, i never seen a bouv in real life but for me they carry a high visual deterrent and they seem kind of psycho/skitz.


----------



## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

Caitlin Beaumont said:


> This is a video I would like someone explain what is going wrong here. Like you pointed out I can see the dog does not like the muzzle, now is the decoy doing anything wrong? What do you mean unsafe?


But Caitlan, I thought you knew it all. That 'sport' wasn't enough and that you wanted a 'real' dog that could do PP work. Here's your chance to show off your knowledge.


----------



## Caitlin Beaumont (May 2, 2012)

leslie cassian said:


> But Caitlan, I thought you knew it all. That 'sport' wasn't enough and that you wanted a 'real' dog that could do PP work. Here's your chance to show off your knowledge.


 
So what? I have a question, big deal. I see people on here with thousands of posts and who are 'respected' yet they post more questions than half of the people on here.


----------



## Caitlin Beaumont (May 2, 2012)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> all just my noob opinion and dont ask me about drives i know zip, i say civil in the most obvious way due to no bite suit or sleeve that the dog sees as an invitation to a game of rough tug, that right there will leave most dogs confused and unsure on what to do next, even a strong comp dog in any venue.
> 
> next i say civil cos of the clear intensity of the dog wanting to get at and dominate the guy with evrything it had anywhere it could get at him.
> 
> ...


So when you do muzzle work, assuming with nothing but regular clothes on, dogs are in civil drive, especially if they clearly want to hurt and dominate? 

I see that clear head remark often. But the way you just explained it was better than anyone else was able to tell me Lol.

I wonder how many Sch accidents there are from a dog going for something else other than the sleeve, got to be pretty nasty and painful!


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> now next comment is where i am out of my depth and guessing; i say the dog was not real clear headed, like an enraged bar room brawler compared to a cool pro boxer.


Mike Tyson bit someone's ear off, if he only had a muzzle on


----------



## Caitlin Beaumont (May 2, 2012)

Joby Becker said:


> Mike Tyson bit someone's ear off, if he only had a muzzle on


 
Now that is gross :-&


----------



## Martin Espericueta (Apr 1, 2006)

Caitlin Beaumont said:


> Now that is gross :-&


What's gross is me having ants on my head after I was out tossing oranges (ones already on the ground) for my GSD Schatzie to retrieve lol.

Hi Caitlin, nice to meet you. Many questions have been answered (drive theory, how-tos, etc) already, and so a quick search on this forum will save a lot of typing lol. But questions ARE cool and great, so its best to ask them separately in unique threads. I mention this because some questions you've asked on This Thread will probably be lost in the mist of ...whatever this is turning in to lol.

Sent from my Desire HD using Tapatalk 2


----------



## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Joby Becker said:


> Mike Tyson bit someone's ear off, if he only had a muzzle on


 
tyson is cool, and he is/was pro......bad example. there are always exceptions.


----------



## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Caitlin Beaumont said:


> So when you do muzzle work,* assuming with nothing but regular clothes on, dogs are in civil drive,* especially if they clearly want to hurt and dominate?
> 
> I see that clear head remark often. But the way you just explained it was better than anyone else was able to tell me Lol.
> 
> I wonder how many Sch accidents there are from a dog going for something else other than the sleeve, got to be pretty nasty and painful!


 
if the dog is trying to bite you with intent to harm then i would say yes because i think dogs are trained to actually bite the tug / sleeve / suit. the decoy is just carrying it for them, and is more often than not is the dogs pal and a trusted friend of the dog. its the suit being targetted not the man that distinguishes not civil from civil and the intention of hurting the man or killing the adversary not playing a fun game / extended game of tug. of course a civil dog can still bite a suit if thats all there is in front of them.



you really need to be getting answers from people who actually know what they are talking about, a noob trying to tell another noob...

i would also suggest you and yr folks consult a lawyer on the legal implications of yr dog actually biting someone which will vary from state to state, lot of responsibility and what happens to the dog when you get a new interest. you owe it tothe dog to think of these things.

good luck, i will leave yr threads to the experienced folks.


----------



## Doug Zaga (Mar 28, 2010)

A new day Caitlin.... did you change your mind? How about racing pigeons?


----------



## Caitlin Beaumont (May 2, 2012)

Doug Zaga said:


> A new day Caitlin.... did you change your mind? How about racing pigeons?


 
No No already done those... Even better I think I'm gunna be a hamster byb :mrgreen:. But being serious No I have not changed my mind.


----------



## Caitlin Beaumont (May 2, 2012)

Martin Espericueta said:


> What's gross is me having ants on my head after I was out tossing oranges (ones already on the ground) for my GSD Schatzie to retrieve lol.
> 
> Hi Caitlin, nice to meet you. Many questions have been answered (drive theory, how-tos, etc) already, and so a quick search on this forum will save a lot of typing lol. But questions ARE cool and great, so its best to ask them separately in unique threads. I mention this because some questions you've asked on This Thread will probably be lost in the mist of ...whatever this is turning in to lol.
> 
> Sent from my Desire HD using Tapatalk 2


 
Hi! Lol hope the ants didn't freak you out too bad, cuz I know I would have. I wasn't going to start a whole nother thread before reading other threads and doing some research, & My threads always go offtopic and turn into something else.


----------



## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Joby Becker said:


> Mike Tyson bit someone's ear off, if he only had a muzzle on


Joby

Mike Tyson bites ONE guys ear off and he's a bad guy
Caitlin talks the ears off twenty guys in this topic (100+ replies so far)
and it's OK? Because she's a girl or because she's 17? LOL


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Joby
> 
> Mike Tyson bites ONE guys ear off and he's a bad guy
> Caitlin talks the ears off twenty guys in this topic (100+ replies so far)
> and it's OK? Because she's a girl or because she's 17? LOL


she didnt talk anyone's ear off, she wrote some stuff down, that everyone chose to read, and then chose to respond to.

I think that is OK, that is what internet forums are all about.
Everyone has the ability to chose what they read or respond to.

I hope that she is a real person first, second I hope she gets a good dog, third I hope she trains it do do what she wants it to do. 

You or I or anyone are not her parents, she can post what she wants to, unless the mos step in..she can get a dog for what she wants of what kind she wants.


----------



## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Joby

Are you hitting the bottle again?
You seem to over react to my post razzing the new kid on the block
and she didn't


----------



## Doug Zaga (Mar 28, 2010)

What was Caitlin's decision?


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Joby
> 
> Are you hitting the bottle again?
> You seem to over react to my post razzing the new kid on the block
> and she didn't


no booze here....not since the phone book day... 

You asked me a direct question, so I answered it...that is how internet forums work generally


----------



## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

_"I hope that she is a real person"_


She is. :smile:


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Connie Sutherland said:


> _"I hope that she is a real person"_
> She is. :smile:



CHECK ONE! Two more to go.


----------



## Caitlin Beaumont (May 2, 2012)

Doug Zaga said:


> What was Caitlin's decision?


 
What decision?


----------



## Caitlin Beaumont (May 2, 2012)

Joby Becker said:


> CHECK ONE! Two more to go.


 
Yep, I gave my Youtube in my Bio if anyone cares to check it out.


----------



## Doug Zaga (Mar 28, 2010)

Doug Zaga said:


> What was Caitlin's decision?





Caitlin Beaumont said:


> What decision?


 
Well, we know your choice in dogs has "EVOLVED"every couple of weeks  So, wanted to know if you decied on maybe reptiles if not racing pigeons!


----------



## Caitlin Beaumont (May 2, 2012)

Doug Zaga said:


> Well, we know your choice in dogs has "EVOLVED"every couple of weeks  So, wanted to know if you decied on maybe reptiles if not racing pigeons!


 
Lol Well yes of course.. I went from Dutchies to miniture Irish Wolfhounds to game bred Pugs then back to Dogos then Alligators(going to build a moat around my yard) maybe even a Cobras(throw then in womens purses) and black widows (i can just throw then on someone trying to rob me)... Saw some video of a Lion and these men hugging so I now want the bestest best best killer attack cat evah! Don't worry I use ONLY purely positive training, thats what the petsmart trainer told me to do and the dry cleaning lady said If I even dare try to use a shock collar then I need to walk around with one one barking to and see how it feels, I need to do it in public too so that everyone can make fun of me!!! :smile:!


----------



## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

This kids alright. 


Like yr attitude, too many slothful youngsters these days, u got some dash.


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Caitlin Beaumont said:


> Lol Well yes of course.. I went from Dutchies to miniture Irish Wolfhounds to game bred Pugs then back to Dogos then Alligators(going to build a moat around my yard) maybe even a Cobras(throw then in womens purses) and black widows (i can just throw then on someone trying to rob me)... Saw some video of a Lion and these men hugging so I now want the bestest best best killer attack cat evah! Don't worry I use ONLY purely positive training, thats what the petsmart trainer told me to do and the dry cleaning lady said If I even dare try to use a shock collar then I need to walk around with one one barking to and see how it feels, I need to do it in public too so that everyone can make fun of me!!! :smile:!


 
Hahahah!!!! At least if you wear the shock collar, that's a start on getting some experience.

T


----------



## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Caitlin Beaumont said:


> Yep, I gave my Youtube in my Bio if anyone cares to check it out.


You all need to check out the Pit bull video the kids got on her FB? Page
They're doing a broad jump and Palisade and getting some major air and distance. Impressive video and I even got some ideas that might work for Mondio ring training


----------



## Caitlin Beaumont (May 2, 2012)

Thomas Barriano said:


> You all need to check out the Pit bull video the kids got on her FB? Page
> They're doing a broad jump and Palisade and getting some major air and distance. Impressive video and I even got some ideas that might work for Mondio ring training


 
It's my Youtube page... So they just put a tire on a palisade and the dog gets it? Is there a real name for this manuver? Does anyone know where this is?


----------



## Caitlin Beaumont (May 2, 2012)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Hahahah!!!! At least if you wear the shock collar, that's a start on getting some experience.
> 
> T


 
Everyone would think I'm nuts...My local grocery store already does because whenener my Mom says I can get something I beg her for raw meat or bones (for gun)!!!


----------



## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Caitlin Beaumont said:


> It's my Youtube page... So they just put a tire on a palisade and the dog gets it? Is there a real name for this manuver? Does anyone know where this is?


There's no tire in Mondio or French Ring and the dogs have to climb over the wall/palisade. In Mondio there's a ramp on the back side
in French Ring there is NOT and the dog has to do a return jump too


----------



## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> I can clear streets walking with a GSD.
> T


Same here, Terrasita - but strangely enough walking the Fila Brasileiro "invited" kids, old ladies, etc. to want to stroke him. The old ladies thought he was a Boxer mix and the kids just loved him. He actually did like people just not those who wanted to order him about which kids and old ladies don't do!


----------



## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> The mastiff and bullmastiff are "estate guardian" breeds as well, manstoppers


The last Mastiff I saw here in Switzerland had to be helped to jump into the car at five years of age.

The Bullmastiffs (as it states "Schutzhund" in the standard should be tested for this (not sport schutzhund) but this has been ignored. My husband was president of the Molosser Club here and tried to force this, with the result that they left the Molosser Club.

All these heavyweights, Mastino Napoletano, the above two, Cane Corso, and Tosa Inu are probably doomed for life. The Fila has retained its aggressive traits over the years and it is an athletic dog but, although very obedient to its owners, is probably too much for them to handle outside of the garden.


----------



## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

You can still find good Mastinos in the Balkans and in Greece. 

I've owned three which were very good. 



Regards


----------



## Caitlin Beaumont (May 2, 2012)

Gillian Schuler said:


> Same here, Terrasita - but strangely enough walking the Fila Brasileiro "invited" kids, old ladies, etc. to want to stroke him. The old ladies thought he was a Boxer mix and the kids just loved him. He actually did like people just not those who wanted to order him about which kids and old ladies don't do!


 
I would have stopped and asked to pet too! One time I got to see a Central Asian Ovcharka...umm let me just say the dog was up to the womans belly button!!!


----------



## Caitlin Beaumont (May 2, 2012)

Gillian Schuler said:


> The last Mastiff I saw here in Switzerland had to be helped to jump into the car at five years of age.
> 
> The Bullmastiffs (as it states "Schutzhund" in the standard should be tested for this (not sport schutzhund) but this has been ignored. My husband was president of the Molosser Club here and tried to force this, with the result that they left the Molosser Club.
> 
> All these heavyweights, Mastino Napoletano, the above two, Cane Corso, and Tosa Inu are probably doomed for life. The Fila has retained its aggressive traits over the years and it is an athletic dog but, although very obedient to its owners, is probably too much for them to handle outside of the garden.


 
Wow, Gun can still jump/in out the car on most days, that or I pick him up. Gunner went to the Vet ad he is 86 pounds and still overweight by about 10 pounds (in my opinion), he just might be from a show breeder that breeds those super short/stocky dogs, but he is not short (26").Another reason I thought I would be better off with a smaller breed, although a 85 lb dog is not small, Dogos and other mastiff breeds are very nice but not the best for lots of high jumps and long distance exercise in hot weather! Is it the Fila that, in shows, must be agressive and try to bite the judge for it to have a correct temp, is this a really a good thing or just a dog with weak nerves being confused as "protective"? I only say that because I don't think a "stable dog" should just go after anyone without a command and nonetheless just some person walking around leisurely?


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Caitlin Beaumont said:


> Is it the Fila that, in shows, must be agressive and try to bite the judge for it to have a correct temp, is this a really a good thing or just a dog with weak nerves being confused as "protective"? I only say that because I don't think a "stable dog" should just go after anyone without a command and nonetheless just some person walking around leisurely?


the fila temperment tests are entertaining to watch.. 
they are supposed to try to bite the evaluator, yes, but he is hardly just walking around, usually he is coming at the dog with a wheelbarrow or a lawnmower


----------



## Caitlin Beaumont (May 2, 2012)

Joby Becker said:


> the fila temperment tests are entertaining to watch..
> they are supposed to try to bite the evaluator, yes, but he is hardly just walking around, usually he is coming at the dog with a wheelbarrow or a lawnmower


 
Oh Ok well I did not know that Lol.


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Caitlin Beaumont said:


> Oh Ok well I did not know that Lol.


I tried to locate the old videos I saw years and years ago, about when you were born...couldnt...lots of wheelbarrows and lawnmowers and stuff.

now it appears to be big sticks and lawn chairs.. 

The Fila I have seen and worked in person, pretty much hated strangers in general though, but that is how they were bred to be back then.

came across this one, no chairs or anything, but I doubt this was "official" test 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HyutvTJ4oDU&feature=player_embedded


----------



## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Joby, thanks for that. I have never seen Filas working in bitework.

It is not allowed by the Molosser Club in Switzerland! We did work our Fila and saw that when aroused he had 100% aggression but would calm down pretty quickly afterwards. He was an excellent guard dog, but as I have said, they are very obedient to their owners, unless these are afraid of them!

Caitlin, that is now no longer practised, at least not here in Switzerland. When I first heard that the judge couldn't come near to the Fila I complained. Now you can see on the photos that the judge can examine the Fila's teeth.

There was a show near to us and I am enclosing the link:

http://www.sylrol.net/klubschau2012/

Scroll down to the Mastino Napoletanos - they are disgustingly unhealthy. Everyone talks about "Qualzucht"(defective breeding) over here but it obviously doesn't reach everyone's ears.


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Gillian Schuler said:


> Joby, thanks for that. I have never seen Filas working in bitework.
> 
> It is not allowed by the Molosser Club in Switzerland! We did work our Fila and saw that when aroused he had 100% aggression but would calm down pretty quickly afterwards. He was an excellent guard dog, but as I have said, they are very obedient to their owners, unless these are afraid of them!
> 
> ...


I am sure there are different types of the fila..

the "ojeriza" used to be a big focus of many of the breeders in days past, not sure about now.. The fila I have personally seen, I would never attempt to put my hands on, but again this was years and years ago. They were very strong and powerful and wanted to bite strangers.

That was pretty much how the fila was described back then, and the ones I saw, fit the bill..stable enough to go in the house with the owners, but the dogs were highly suspicious and I could tell they did not like me at all, so I was not gonna try to put my hands on them, or get stuck in a room alone with them...LOL They were guard dog type of dog.

I hear people talk about how they are mostly all fearful, and I cant argue with that I guess for the most part, but I have seen some good ones in chicago, and the ones I worked in another state had no issues biting me in a bitesuit with no previous bitework training at all from across the backyard...they saw me approach and come in, and when allowed to they came and bit. They were defensive for sure, but very forward. Most fila have very little training, they have people tease them a little and then threaten them.

The ones I ran across sure had the ojeriza, the social aggression.


----------



## Robley Smith (Apr 20, 2012)

regarding the the Neos and Filas mentioned above:

http://www.olympicdogs.net/post/559471347/the-rare-breed-story

Completely off topic for this board (though it could fit into Joby's wl vs sl thread), and unlikely to win me any points around here, but I think its an entertaining read


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Robley Smith said:


> regarding the the Neos and Filas mentioned above:
> 
> http://www.olympicdogs.net/post/559471347/the-rare-breed-story
> 
> Completely off topic for this board (though it could fit into Joby's wl vs sl thread), and unlikely to win me any points around here, but I think its an entertaining read


Good read, and I can agree with it..can be said about many of the rare breeds, including the boerboel .

I saw this first hand with the presa canario..

But I see it a little differently as well, in the beginning there are small pockets of people that discover these dogs, and start importing them, sometimes they are trying to import functional working animals. As more people start to sell these local dogs, the breeders in the country of origin see the money, and start a registry themselves and start to breed for the global markets, which usually includes the dog shows...they write a history, they write a standard, where there may have not even been one, then they change that standard for a bunch of stupid reasons, and to omit their rival breeders and groups, so their dogs cannot be included, then you have one club that is the "official" of the breed in the country of origin, who is usually run and filled with people that are not interested in functionality, they are interested in getting their dogs marketed on the internet, creating a history and hype, and trying to cash in...and making all kinds of rules themselves...

In almost all cases I can think of, the pressure comes from within the country of origin to create official standards, clubs and the all important registry, and to rush the "officiality" of it all....

and all along, the original type of dog is still available in small pockets, and it often is not even an official member of the "breed".


----------



## Caitlin Beaumont (May 2, 2012)

Robley Smith said:


> regarding the the Neos and Filas mentioned above:
> 
> http://www.olympicdogs.net/post/559471347/the-rare-breed-story
> 
> Completely off topic for this board (though it could fit into Joby's wl vs sl thread), and unlikely to win me any points around here, but I think its an entertaining read


 
Don't worry about being off topic because the majority of this thread already is. It was entertaining to read... that little article is very true and kind of scary about how basically this will happen to every breed one day, including everyones beloved Mals and Dutchies. I really liked the quote:
“ They walk them on leashes and pick up their shit with little bags and take it with them.”
That's one thing I don't understand is picking up dog crap... A wild animal could take a sh*t in the same place and its "nature" yet your dog does and it's a crime... It's poop people... move it out of the way and get over it. I go on hikes often and they always tell you to clean it up yet there are acres of woods right next to me.. I don't undertand why you are not allowed to just push it off to the side, that;s what I always do. We are not supposed to be off the trail anyways so why would it matter?! I can understand having to clean it up if it was in someones yard but except for that I don't really care. This turned into a rant :lol:.


----------



## Caitlin Beaumont (May 2, 2012)

Joby Becker said:


> Good read, and I can agree with it..can be said about many of the rare breeds, including the boerboel .
> 
> I saw this first hand with the presa canario..
> 
> ...


I'm not sure what size/weight the Boerboel was before they had a standard but I saw this picture, and saved it, of a Boerboel in Africa. I know they were guardians of the property in S Africa but I doubt these 200 lb dogs that we see these days were what they looked like "back then" when function came before form. This is an average Boerboel today.... and the other one (could be a female or just young, but looks a lot lighter bone/weight to me) I am pretty sure the one on the bottom was a a full grown male.






Ok found the link..... The dogs name is Zulu and it doesn't say he is she so I am not sure what the sex of the dog is. OK it is a male.


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Caitlin Beaumont said:


> Don't worry about being off topic because the majority of this thread already is. It was entertaining to read... that little article is very true and kind of scary about how basically this will happen to every breed one day, including everyones beloved Mals and Dutchies. I really liked the quote:
> “ They walk them on leashes and pick up their shit with little bags and take it with them.”
> That's one thing I don't understand is picking up dog crap... A wild animal could take a sh*t in the same place and its "nature" yet your dog does and it's a crime... It's poop people... move it out of the way and get over it. I go on hikes often and they always tell you to clean it up yet there are acres of woods right next to me.. I don't undertand why you are not allowed to just push it off to the side, that;s what I always do. We are not supposed to be off the trail anyways so why would it matter?! I can understand having to clean it up if it was in someones yard but except for that I don't really care. This turned into a rant :lol:.


do you realize how fast dog poop can accumulate? and how many dogs there are? If I am in the woods, I dont clean it up, everywhere else, I clean it up immediately, even in my own yard, just easier, takes a second or two...


----------



## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Joby Becker said:


> .... If I am in the woods, I dont clean it up, everywhere else, I clean it up immediately, even in my own yard, just easier, takes a second or two...


So do I. 

There are always always always baggies in my pockets. Did I say "always"? Always.


----------



## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Connie Sutherland said:


> So do I.
> 
> There are always always always baggies in my pockets. Did I say "always"? Always.


Me too. 

I have a rant too. I'm sick and tired of people who don't pick up after their dogs because thanks to them, many places that were dog friendly, no longer are. Here's another thing: If people decided it was OK to take a dump on the trail I sure as HELL would want them to remove it, so I guess it's only fair that people expect me to remove my dog's crap.


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Bags or not, I chase all the dog walkers off my lawn. I don't let my own dog piss all over my flowers much less a strange dog. 
I do carry my own bags but I rarely walk in my neighborhood. I wouldn't do that to people's lawns, clean up or not!


----------



## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Bob Scott said:


> Bags or not, I chase all the dog walkers off my lawn.* I don't let my own dog piss all over my flowers much less a strange dog.*
> I do carry my own bags but I rarely walk in my neighborhood. I wouldn't do that to people's lawns, clean up or not!


what about the grass, urine is a real grass killer?? do you have a special spot dogs are trained to go to??


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> what about the grass, urine is a real grass killer?? do you have a special spot dogs are trained to go to??




I live on a corner house which means larger front and side yard and very small back yard. In the back yard what isn't concrete patio, fenced off flower beds or Kennel run (they still have the run of the back yard 90% of the time) is covered in shredded bark mulch. Maybe a 15x20 ft area. No grass in the back. When out in front or side yard, it's with me and there are only a few spots they are allowed to piss. If the need to crap they go back in the back yard then come back out when finished IF I'm still out there.


----------



## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

susan tuck said:


> Me too.
> 
> I have a rant too. I'm sick and tired of people who don't pick up after their dogs because thanks to them, many places that were dog friendly, no longer are.




I have actually picked up OTHER PEOPLE'S DOGS' SH*T on occasion just because of the bad press it gives to dog owners in general. You can imagine my thoughts about the irresponsibility of those people when I do that. 

How fun it is to be walking past a big pile on the edge of the trail with my dogs just as another pair of hikers spot (or smell, then spot) that souvenir of someone else's. Not.


----------



## Doug Zaga (Mar 28, 2010)

How did this thread get derailed to dog shit and pooper scooper etiquette? Must have been Caitlin with all those crazy, random, ever changing thoughts! Ahhh to be a teenager again....


----------



## Jessica Kromer (Nov 12, 2009)

There are a bunch of areas in my neighborhood that had a huge accumulation of dog crap. Our association petitioned the city (the area was outside of our neighborhood) for dog waste stations. Made a big difference, but STILL people insist on leaving a mess! I even donated an old scooper to the closest spot. Sheesh. ](*,)

No fun to go for a run and smell dog crap the whole way...


----------



## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Doug Zaga said:


> Ahhh to be a teenager again....



Not for a million dollars. :lol:


----------



## Jessica Kromer (Nov 12, 2009)

Doug Zaga said:


> How did this thread get derailed to dog shit and pooper scooper etiquette? Must have been Caitlin with all those crazy, random, ever changing thoughts! Ahhh to be a teenager again....


Hahaha!! Copy! My bad...


----------



## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jessica Kromer said:


> Hahaha!! Copy! My bad...


No .... it was a topic from the O.P.

Originally Posted by Caitlin Beaumont 

_That's one thing I don't understand is picking up dog crap... A wild animal could take a sh*t in the same place and its "nature" yet your dog does and it's a crime... It's poop people... move it out of the way and get over it. I go on hikes often and they always tell you to clean it up yet there are acres of woods right next to me.. I don't undertand why you are not allowed to just push it off to the side, that;s what I always do. We are not supposed to be off the trail anyways so why would it matter?! I can understand having to clean it up if it was in someones yard but except for that I don't really care. _

It may be hard to keep up, but yes, they are indeed responses to the O.P. :lol:


I'd suggest returning to the topic ( _Hovawart as a PPD?_), but I'm pretty sure that ship sailed long ago. :lol:


----------



## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Caitlin Beaumont said:


> That's one thing I don't understand is picking up dog crap... A wild animal could take a sh*t in the same place and its "nature" yet your dog does and it's a crime... It's poop people... move it out of the way and get over it. I go on hikes often and they always tell you to clean it up yet there are acres of woods right next to me.. I don't undertand why you are not allowed to just push it off to the side, that;s what I always do. We are not supposed to be off the trail anyways so why would it matter?! I can understand having to clean it up if it was in someones yard but except for that I don't really care. This turned into a rant :lol:.


It's a zoonotic risk. Quite a few dogs if not on monthly heartworm preventative carry roundworms and hookworms, both are which are hardy in the environment and can be passed to humans with sometimes devastating results (especially in children). There is also shedding of salmonella, E. coli, and so on. Dogs can harbor leptospirosis in urine, which is also transmissible and dangerous to humans.


----------



## Doug Zaga (Mar 28, 2010)

Connie Sutherland said:


> No .... it was a topic from the O.P.
> 
> Originally Posted by Caitlin Beaumont
> 
> ...


I knew it had to be Caitlin! [-X


----------



## Jessica Kromer (Nov 12, 2009)

Doug Zaga said:


> I knew it had to be Caitlin! [-X


So long as I can still be the innocent angel! O


----------



## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jessica Kromer said:


> So long as I can still be the innocent angel! O


Oh yes. You always are. 



:lol:


----------



## Doug Zaga (Mar 28, 2010)

Jessica Kromer said:


> So long as I can still be the innocent angel! O


 
Uhmmmm ...I plead the 5th ! LOL! :razz:


----------



## Jessica Kromer (Nov 12, 2009)

Doug Zaga said:


> Uhmmmm ...I plead the 5th ! LOL! :razz:


Hahaha!!!! Don't let my secrets out here babe! They won't want me here any more... :wink:


----------



## Doug Zaga (Mar 28, 2010)

Jessica Kromer said:


> Hahaha!!!! Don't let my secrets out here babe! They won't want me here any more... :wink:


Never... 

everyone no PM'ng me asking for the details!


----------



## Jessica Kromer (Nov 12, 2009)

:razz:

Shhhh....


----------



## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Jessica Kromer said:


> Hahaha!!!! Don't let my secrets out here babe! They won't want me here any more... :wink:


Jessica

This group will likely want you more if you have some juicy secrets


----------



## Doug Zaga (Mar 28, 2010)

Jessica Kromer said:


> :razz:
> 
> Shhhh....


 
Now I am getting texts asking for the scoop... LOL!


----------



## Jessica Kromer (Nov 12, 2009)

Think of my reputation! Shhh... 

I am a sweet, unassuming woman of indeterminate, well, everything online. Don't believe anything Doug says!


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Connie Sutherland said:


> I have actually picked up OTHER PEOPLE'S DOGS' SH*T on occasion just because of the bad press it gives to dog owners in general. You can imagine my thoughts about the irresponsibility of those people when I do that.
> 
> How fun it is to be walking past a big pile on the edge of the trail with my dogs just as another pair of hikers spot (or smell, then spot) that souvenir of someone else's. Not.


Yeah I pick up what I see usually, if I am at a place where lots of people walk, like a park, or walking paths (paved) unless it is really really small, I have had people talk smack and make comments, cause they thought it was my dog that took a crap in the middle of the concrete sidewalk around the lighthouse at the harbor. I just yelled at some guy a few weeks ago that accused me of not picking up my dogs poop, it was super tiny too...like a chihuahua's..lol...I told him my dog craps as big as his shoes (which was a lie, but who cares)


----------



## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

All this crap talk.


----------



## Caitlin Beaumont (May 2, 2012)

Joby Becker said:


> do you realize how fast dog poop can accumulate? and how many dogs there are? If I am in the woods, I dont clean it up, everywhere else, I clean it up immediately, even in my own yard, just easier, takes a second or two...


 
I sure do. If I skimp of cleaning then it looks like a herd of cows live here!


----------



## Caitlin Beaumont (May 2, 2012)

Bob Scott said:


> Bags or not, I chase all the dog walkers off my lawn. I don't let my own dog piss all over my flowers much less a strange dog.
> I do carry my own bags but I rarely walk in my neighborhood. I wouldn't do that to people's lawns, clean up or not!


That's a real problem in our neighborhood. I'm the only person who doesn't let their dog crap/pee all in the lawn.


----------



## Caitlin Beaumont (May 2, 2012)

Bob Scott said:


> Bags or not, I chase all the dog walkers off my lawn. I don't let my own dog piss all over my flowers much less a strange dog.
> I do carry my own bags but I rarely walk in my neighborhood. I wouldn't do that to people's lawns, clean up or not!


That's a real problem in our neighborhood. I'm the only person who doesn't let their dog crap/pee all in the everyones lawn.


----------



## Caitlin Beaumont (May 2, 2012)

Doug Zaga said:


> How did this thread get derailed to dog shit and pooper scooper etiquette? Must have been Caitlin with all those crazy, random, ever changing thoughts! Ahhh to be a teenager again....


 
Oh Doug I forgot to tell you that I'm "back" to Dutchies.


----------



## Caitlin Beaumont (May 2, 2012)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> All this crap talk.


 
I know! Whoever started this topic is a real piece of.....:-#


----------



## Caitlin Beaumont (May 2, 2012)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> what about the grass, urine is a real grass killer?? do you have a special spot dogs are trained to go to??


A real flower killer too... our new flowers are already feeling the wrath of all the neighborhood dogs!


----------



## Caitlin Beaumont (May 2, 2012)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Not for a million dollars. :lol:


What are you guys talking about. Being a Teen is great! Your Mom makes you dinner everynight, folds your tighty whities, you don't have to worry about bills, you have "chauffeurs" that drive you around everywhere... It's great :mrgreen:


----------



## Caitlin Beaumont (May 2, 2012)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> It's a zoonotic risk. Quite a few dogs if not on monthly heartworm preventative carry roundworms and hookworms, both are which are hardy in the environment and can be passed to humans with sometimes devastating results (especially in children). There is also shedding of salmonella, E. coli, and so on. Dogs can harbor leptospirosis in urine, which is also transmissible and dangerous to humans.


I understand that, But don't wild animals carry the same stuff, if not more since they are never given vax's and preventives?What is lepto.. I have heard of it before on a Lerrburg thread? And when you say "shedding" you aren't talking about dogs hair, ughh right?


----------



## Caitlin Beaumont (May 2, 2012)

Doug Zaga said:


> I knew it had to be Caitlin! [-X


:-({|=


----------



## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Caitlin Beaumont said:


> I understand that, But don't wild animals carry the same stuff, if not more since they are never given vax's and preventives?


Of wild animals and domesticated animals, which do you think is more likely to leave feces and urine in areas where we (and our dogs) are exposed to it?


----------



## Caitlin Beaumont (May 2, 2012)

susan tuck said:


> Me too.
> 
> I have a rant too. I'm sick and tired of people who don't pick up after their dogs because thanks to them, many places that were dog friendly, no longer are. Here's another thing: If people decided it was OK to take a dump on the trail I sure as HELL would want them to remove it, so I guess it's only fair that people expect me to remove my dog's crap.


OK OK. Everyone has a point. Guess I will be carrying doggie poop bags more often... people already think I'm weird walking around with a fanny pack full of treats... to top it off with bags full of crap will really get everyone riled up.


----------



## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Caitlin Beaumont said:


> ... What is lepto..



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leptospirosis

and a zillion more returns pop up when you type _lepto_ at Google. You don't even need the whole word (leptospirosis).


----------



## Caitlin Beaumont (May 2, 2012)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Of wild animals and domesticated animals, which do you think is more likely to leave feces and urine in areas where we (and our dogs) are exposed to it?


 
Dogs!


----------



## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Caitlin Beaumont said:


> Dogs!


Correct.

So which should we be focused on picking up?


----------



## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Caitlin Beaumont said:


> ... when you say "shedding" you aren't talking about dogs hair, ughh right?


_Shed _is as simple to Google as _lepto_ is.

To shed: to get rid of; to disperse; to cast off, to drop ...


----------



## Caitlin Beaumont (May 2, 2012)

Connie Sutherland said:


> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leptospirosis
> 
> and a zillion more returns pop up when you type _lepto_ at Google. You don't even need the whole word (leptospirosis).


That is horrible. I need to watch what Gunner eats/drinks while we are out more often. Wasn't there a person on Leerburg whose dog got this? It was a dog whose heart ruptured and the other animals died as well, not sure how long ago it was.


----------



## Caitlin Beaumont (May 2, 2012)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Correct.
> 
> So which should we be focused on picking up?


 
Dogs.....


----------



## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Caitlin Beaumont said:


> Dogs.....



There ya go!


----------



## Caitlin Beaumont (May 2, 2012)

Connie Sutherland said:


> _Shed _is as simple to Google as _lepto_ is.
> 
> To shed: to get rid of; to disperse; to cast off, to drop ...


 
Ahh I see! I was going to do the research myself but got caught up in the replies but Thanks!


----------



## Caitlin Beaumont (May 2, 2012)

Connie Sutherland said:


> There ya go!


 
\\/ I'm so smart!


----------



## Jessica Kromer (Nov 12, 2009)

Connie, you're cracking me up!!!


----------



## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jessica Kromer said:


> Connie, you're cracking me up!!!



Ssshhh.


You don't want to sound like that person you don't want Doug to expose.


:lol: :lol:


----------



## Jessica Kromer (Nov 12, 2009)

Hehehe!!! 

I can hear the inflection in your voice from here. :smile:

Unassuming. Back to unassuming. O


----------



## Doug Zaga (Mar 28, 2010)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Ssshhh.
> 
> 
> You don't want to sound like that person you don't want Doug to expose.
> ...


 
Yeah....that unassuming... 

And lastly,,,Caitlin, listen to Momma Connie...pick up your dog's sh*t!


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Doug Zaga said:


> Yeah....that unassuming...
> 
> And lastly,,,Caitlin, listen to Momma Connie...pick up your dog's sh*t!


or she might get out her slappin gloves...


----------



## Caitlin Beaumont (May 2, 2012)

Joby Becker said:


> or she might get out her slappin gloves...


 
uh oh what are those?


----------



## Jessica Kromer (Nov 12, 2009)

I don't think Caitlin is old enough for slapping gloves... :-$


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Jessica Kromer said:


> I don't think Caitlin is old enough for slapping gloves... :-$


she lives in Georgia for Pete's Sakes...


----------



## Martin Espericueta (Apr 1, 2006)

Joby Becker said:


> she lives in Georgia for Pete's Sakes...


Too funny

Sent from my Desire HD using Tapatalk 2


----------



## Caitlin Beaumont (May 2, 2012)

http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f8/forum-bullying-someone-explain-20843/index12.html

Scroll down to #117 ... OMG what kinda freak show IS this place?!? LOL


----------



## Caitlin Beaumont (May 2, 2012)

and keep on scrolling till the next page lol


----------



## Doug Zaga (Mar 28, 2010)

Caitlin Beaumont said:


> http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f8/forum-bullying-someone-explain-20843/index12.html
> 
> Scroll down to #117 ... OMG what kinda freak show IS this place?!? LOL


She in glass house should not throw stones... LMAO!


----------



## Marta Wajngarten (Jul 30, 2006)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Of wild animals and domesticated animals, which do you think is more likely to leave feces and urine in areas where we (and our dogs) are exposed to it?


not to mention most dogs are on commercial kibble which means preserved poops that can sit around without any signs of decomposing for months


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Marta Wajngarten said:


> not to mention most dogs are on commercial kibble which means preserved poops that can sit around without any signs of decomposing for months



It is said that after the world is destroyed by nuke attack then there will only be rats, roaches and uneaten Twinkies left on the planet.
:-k .........I'm thinking maybe we need to add kibble fed dog crap to that short list. :grin:


----------



## Caitlin Beaumont (May 2, 2012)

Marta Wajngarten said:


> not to mention most dogs are on commercial kibble which means preserved poops that can sit around without any signs of decomposing for months


 
I was thinking the same thing. I know RAW fed dogs poop is small and decomposes quickly. Gunners, who eats kibble, is like plastic that stuff takes FOREVER to disapear if you don't clean it up.


----------



## Sally Crunkleton (Jan 13, 2012)

Joby Becker said:


> she lives in Georgia for Pete's Sakes...


I have refused to comment on this thread for lots of reasons- but did you have to go there Joby?! :0

Oh well, I am laughing at that statement regardless...


----------



## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

Can you explain the relation to us foreigners...


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Tiago Fontes said:


> Can you explain the relation to us foreigners...


Not really


----------



## Sally Crunkleton (Jan 13, 2012)

Tiago Fontes said:


> Can you explain the relation to us foreigners...


Well, there are lots of stereotypes about GA, and the South in general. I took it as us "********" can take a slapping no matter what age. Was funny to me!


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Sally Crunkleton said:


> Well, there are lots of stereotypes about GA, and the South in general. I took it as us "********" can take a slapping no matter what age. Was funny to me!


that will work, it went a little deeper than that though..


----------



## Jessica Kromer (Nov 12, 2009)

Much deeper ;-) :-D


----------



## Sally Crunkleton (Jan 13, 2012)

Ok do tell....I was being PG!


----------



## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> It is said that after the world is destroyed by nuke attack then there will only be rats, roaches and uneaten Twinkies left on the planet.
> :-k .........I'm thinking maybe we need to add kibble fed dog crap to that short list. :grin:


Not with only 5% humidity. We call em bullets here.:-D


----------



## Sally Crunkleton (Jan 13, 2012)

Lee H Sternberg said:


> Not with only 5% humidity. We call em bullets here.:-D


Ah your killing me! 65% humidity here and that's a bit lower than is has been.


----------



## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

Sally Crunkleton said:


> Well, there are lots of stereotypes about GA, and the South in general. I took it as us "********" can take a slapping no matter what age. Was funny to me!


 
Ok. Understand now...lol

Thanks


----------

