# The problem in all breeds.



## Jim Engel (Nov 14, 2007)

I am very well aware of the problems in the "alternate breeds,"
as discussed below. But there is an underlaying proglem here,
the general decline in working dog numbers.

When we get started, regardless of our breeds, we have visions
of large numbers of "serious" bfeeders and trainers in the homelands,
regard the problems we see as American problems.

But look at some numbers:

*German Annual Registrations*
*Breed 2006 2005 2004 2003 2002 2001 2000 1999 1998 1997*
GSD 16,908 18,278 19,874 19,882 20,352 21,372 20,872 23,839 27,834 29,824
Boxer 1,722 1,836 1,669 1,690 1,704 1,600 1,966 2,106 2,594 2,659
Great Dane 1,685 1,807 1,890 1,771 1,800 1,574 1,641 1,701 1,630 1,853
Rottweiler 1,528 1,559 1,493 1,511 1,488 1,431 1,501 2,192 2,716 3,168
Giant Schnauzer 1,165 1,258 1,333 1,222 1,190 1,161 1,137 1,171 1,494 1,998
Hovawart 1,146 1,190 1,076 1,286 1,069 1,098 1,289 1,293 1,479 1,479
Airedale 1,054 1,206 1,208 1,089 1,115 1,065 1,056 1,150 1,235 1,423
Dobermann 757 750 804 784 734 712 864 860 1,312 1,577
Malinois 700 580 644 446 490 428 397 440 421 385

I think that the parents of all or most of these German Shepherds are Schutzhud
titled, but this is not the case for most of these other breeds, "show lines" predominte
in most or all situations.

You could probably gather together all of the "serious alternate breed trainers and
breeders" in Germany in a small town high school footbal stadium and leave the
north and west stands empty.

Even the german shepherd has seen it's puppy registrations drop by fifteen thousand
in ten years.

In talking to people, Europeans and Americans, my gut feel is that we are totally
failing to draw in young people.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Jim, we are failing to bring in the young people.

Are the registration of this dogs mentioned from the AKC register or they all registers combined?


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

OOPs, I see now that they are from German registrations.


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## Jim Engel (Nov 14, 2007)

*Re: The problem in all breeds sorry for the format*

It looked OK when I sent it in:

Try this:

http://www.angelplace.net/photos/GermanRegistrations.htm


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## Keith Jenkins (Jun 6, 2007)

I agree that young people aren't getting into the sport(s) but I don't believe you can place blame on anyone in particular. Nothing against the younger folks but a ton of them I see from day to day just don't have the same work ethics as most of us baby boomers had taught to us growing up. Let's face it people it isn't an easy sport nor a cheap one.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

I don't just think this is in protection sport, but many sports. Just look how much AKC obedience numbers have dropped in favor of rally or agility. But even the average person who trains in rally or agility is still usually 35+, white, and female, at least in my area. I was the youngest person in my old Schutzhund club by at least 10 or even 15 years and I'm not hardly a teenager. I don't know hardly anyone my age (I'll be 26 in two weeks) that trains even casually. Even some of the folks in our therapy dog club at the vet school don't even want to "train," they just want their dog to magically be a therapy dog.


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## Jim Engel (Nov 14, 2007)

*Priceing ourselves out of the activity market*

As mentioned above, a big part of the decline in Schutzhund
activity, or failure to grow, is that in America it is just
way too expensive for the young person to get into.
In Europe thirty or more years ago Schutzhund was a very,
very reasonably priced recrational acttivity. Most of my
experience was in the Netherlands and Belgium, where most
clubs were on public land, owned by an established club or
otherwise with very low cost. 
I met an old guy in Belgium who had two crates and a bunch
of bike parts made into a two dog tricycle, after training
he loaded up and peddled home.
People walked, biked or drove a short distance to a club,
and it was a often a social center for non participating
family members and children.
In the Netherlands thirty years ago you could buy a really
good Bouvier pup for something like 400 guilders, about $200
American in the good old days of the sound dollar, and that
was the price for the dumb ass rich Americans.
And the Bouviers were in general higher in price than the
Malinois. Lots of equipment was made and sold by trainers
as a little side business.
In America thirty years ago traveling was a lot more expensive,
because of distance, but nobody expected to be paid for helper
work. Usually grounds could be found cheap. THe big expense
was the Euro travel for a judge, but they pitched in, did
a number of trials and gave little low cost seminars.
Good dogs were available at relatively reasonable prices. 
You did have young families involved, that's where we and
probably many of you started. 
Things are a lot different today, and Schutzhund or Ring are
becoming very expensive sports.
Note I am not in any way blameing anybody in paraticular, 
helpers charge money for a service based on supply and demand,
I never gave away pups or copies of my book.
But today Schutzhund is getting priced out of the after work
activity market, and judging by the numbers and what I hear
from old friencs the Europeans are not far behind us.


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## todd pavlus (Apr 30, 2008)

Maybe if there was a "Dog Sport" video game, that might get some of these youngsters off their ass.:smile: I'm not that old(34) and have never liked video games, I always found more fun things to do outside. If I new about schutzhund when I was younger I would have had a much ealier start. Not to mention, people that don't now anything about dog sports usually think your training your dog to attack, and in this lawsuit happy country, probably disuades some folks from learning about it. And there is not a hobby anymore that is cheap to participate in, except hiking/walking....which I do regularlly.


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## Sara Findley (Feb 27, 2008)

i wouldn't blame it on the youngsters.. I would blame it on most schutzhund clubs. I was 24 when i started looking into schutzhund 3 years ago. Most people i found were mean and turned me away. Then i found a club i liked, stayed in it for almost a year and stupid drama chased me out. Then I moved and again looked for clubs and again the clubs were snobby and turned thier nose up to me. Thinking just another girl with a showline dog that isnt going to take it seriously. I found people out of clubs to work with after that. Then again had to move and found a mondio ring club, took me awhile to go out there to meet people afraid of how i would be treated. They were so nice and informative that i was shocked! 

I am not saying all people in schutzhund were mean to me, but the majority was. I think it is very very hard for new people to get into the sport just because of how judgemental people in the clubs can be. I have met a lot of nice people and some of my closest friends from schutzhund but i feel that clubs need to lighten up on new people that are coming into the sport. Everyone learns some where. 

If your worried about your working dogs dying off or the clubs getting smaller with no interest then go out and promote your sport. Go to the pet fairs in the summer, advertise your trials at dog shows or pet stores. And be nice to new people!


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## Lyn Chen (Jun 19, 2006)

Also consider the modern attitude towards working dogs...PETA-laced views and all that...especially how cruel it is to be teaching dogs to be 'mean'. Naturally if this world is all that youngsters are exposed to, they are going to have a hard time to see the beauty and truth behind these sports.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Who published those numbers? Where are those figures coming from? These numbers can't represent all dogs registered in their respective breeds. I'm pretty sure the Hovawart is not a very common breed, (even in Germany), yet the numbers are basically the same as Giant Schnauzer? Plus look at the numbers for the Malinois and Dobermann! Sorry, but I question the validity of this report. Something is skewed here!


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jim Engel said:


> But look at some numbers: *German Annual Registrations*.........


Jim, can we get a link to this material? Thanks!


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

As far as clubs go: This is a very big country, and schutzhund is not a very big sport here, consequently people have to travel far to find a club, dogs are expensive, equipment is expensive, so yes, this sport is expensive, but not when compared to horses for example, so it's all relative. Each club usually only has one helper and one helper can only work so many dogs a night. Clubs need to protect their helpers. 

Plus you get a little bit tired of people who are all gung-ho until they find out it takes a lot of hard work and dedication to train all three phases, it's not like once a week obedience or agility club, and it's not a social club either. Then there is the issue of people with dogs not suitable for the sport.

What might just be people who are waiting to see what you are made of can perhaps look like a bunch of snotty people, but they aren't, just burnt out from wannabes and protective of their helper.

If this were a country where there was a club on every corner things would be different. As far as the UScA membership numbers, just the other day this very subject was up for discussion on another message board, rest assured the crap you might have seen on another board about UScA's supposedly dwindling membership is just that, crap. The numbers are not decreasing, neither are the number of clubs.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

susan tuck said:


> The numbers [USA] are not decreasing, neither are the number of clubs.


What are those numbers? Or where does one see them?


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## Sara Findley (Feb 27, 2008)

susan tuck said:


> Plus you get a little bit tired of people who are all gung-ho until they find out it takes a lot of hard work and dedication to train all three phases, it's not like once a week obedience or agility club, and it's not a social club either. Then there is the issue of people with dogs not suitable for the sport.
> 
> What might just be people who are waiting to see what you are made of can perhaps look like a bunch of snotty people, but they aren't, just burnt out from wannabes and protective of their helper.
> 
> ...


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

"German Annual Registrations" is from your website, Jim. Where did you glean this info from??


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Found it!

Here:

http://www.vdh.de/alles_fuer_medien/welpenstatistik_list.php?suche=&sort=Rasse&go=Go!

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

The decline in anything PHYSICAL can be given to the computer generation! I'm a hunter education instructor in Delaware. The numbers for kids in hunting are down, the reason is simple, no generation to bring them along. This issue is no shock to me either.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Connie Sutherland said:


> What are those numbers? Or where does one see them?


UScA added 12 clubs last year, lost 10.


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## Jim Engel (Nov 14, 2007)

*Sorry -- should have included the reference to the German Data.*

As someone already indicated, it is here:

http://www.vdh.de/alles_fuer_medien/welpenstatistik_list.php?suche=&sort=Rasse&go=Go!

The initial reaction is not believe it, it just seems impossible that there are only about
500 Doberman pups a year in Germany, but, as you can see, I did not make this up.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

I think there are a variety of reasons for the decline, above and beyond the whole PC crap regarding biting dog sports. 

One is the average clubs attitude about new people. And it's not just Sch, almost all of the protection sport clubs in my area say they are closed to new members. It's a catch 22, the clubs are already big enough that they would have a hard time adding new dogs, but if they aren't open to new dogs, how are newbies supposed to ever get interested in the sport and possibly become the "next generation". So the newbies go find another sport to do with their dog, and that's one more person lost to the protection sports. 

Most clubs are made up of a few "leaders", and a bunch of "followers" when it comes to training, which is not a bad thing, but makes it difficult to split the club into 2 so each club is large enough to go forward, but small enough to be able to accept new members. If these splits can be done for growth reasons vs negative politics, it opens the clubs up for new members, while keeping a friendly relationship between them so they can support each other in holding/entering events, sharing fields, etc.

There is also the "quality" issue. The quality of the training, the quality of the decoy/helper work, the quality of the dogs, etc. Many people only want to work with top quality. Which is understandable, but if you won't work with anything else, how is the newbie decoy/helper supposed to learn, if nobody wants to let them work their dog? How is the newbie handler who has a dog that will top out at a one level supposed to learn about the sport, get hooked, and get a better dog for their next dog, if nobody will work their first one?

I think this is one of the unseen side effects of fewer and fewer new people coming into the sports. As more and more people start to qualify as "old timers" their patience/interest in working with the newbies wanes, since they have already been doing it for years. But if there is nobody to work with newbies, there is no “next generation” and once the old timers finally retire, the sports will slowly die out.


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

Nice post Kadi.


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## Butch Cappel (Aug 12, 2007)

Now this is a topic for dog folks, so if I may join in, first let me point out that although money affects all things we do, it likely is not a factor in the declining popularity of dogs and dog sports. 

Why do I say that? Since 1945 when America moved out of the country and into town the numbers of jobs for horses have fallen to barely countable. But even though people moved to the city the numbers of Quarter Horse registrations have risen and risen and risen, and that is just the quarter horse. Now I don't know about you but I find that even my Great Dane is whole lot cheaper to keep and compete than any of the horses I've owned!

Money is never a factor in our entertainment, during the depression Movies and casinos flourished. We will always find a way to fund our fun. So if there are 3 million Quarter horses registered worldwide and more dogs than that by the AKC just in America why are dogs losing popularity? After all I bet you know a whole lot more people with a dog in their backyard than a horse! 

And yet I can turn on the TV and see a Rodeo or horse event almost any time of the day or night. I can go to Denmark and run across "Cowboy Clubs" in every town. Every visit to Australia has had a Rodeo I could go to, a horse thing a day in any country I go to, but in the US I have to search to find any dog events.

Could this be a reflection of the types of dog oversight groups we have in this country. Could our major kennel clubs be more dollar oriented that dog oriented? Is there a difference in the way the Profesional Rodeo Cowboys Assoc and American Quarter Horse Assoc do things? 

How about this, both of those "cowboy" groups were started by working cowboys that only wanted to make things better for the whole. If you look at the PRCA sight it is easy to find the total nmber of rodeos for this year. 

If you look at the AKC sight you will NOT find the total number of dogs registered. In fact you have to submit a special request for that info. But the PRCA answers to_ it's_ members voluntarily. It seems there is a 'no dog interest' group every where you look and the janitor of any corporation is still a reflection of the CEO. 

The AKC, UScA, UKC, CKC, ADBA, ARF, have all shown why they are in to dogs, and it ain't because they all saw "Old Yellow" when they were kids, and if they did they were the ones that DIDN'T cry.

Oh and do you really think your current "trainer" was sobbing at the end? 

Sorry I guess I've been wanting to vent a little on this.


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## Terry Fisk (Jul 26, 2007)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> There is also the "quality" issue. The quality of the training, the quality of the decoy/helper work, the quality of the dogs, etc. Many people only want to work with top quality. Which is understandable, but if you won't work with anything else, how is the newbie decoy/helper supposed to learn, if nobody wants to let them work their dog? How is the newbie handler who has a dog that will top out at a one level supposed to learn about the sport, get hooked, and get a better dog for their next dog, if nobody will work their first one?
> 
> [/SIZE][/COLOR]


Excellent post..
There is also another side to the quality issue. The club has to be realistic in what they can accommodate and still get results. Do you allow unlimited dogs that do not receive adequate assistance and get rushed through because the dog to helper(s) ratio is too high or do you cap the numbers so everyone gets quality time? I hate training at clubs when feeling like I have to "take a number" for my five minutes on the field.


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