# Inbreeding



## Kadi Thingvall

Would like to hear from people who have first hand experience with inbreedings (father/daughter, mother/son, siblings, half-siblings, etc). Did you buy a dog from this type of breeding, did you do this type of breeding? How did it work out, would you do it again, etc?

I know it REALLY depends on the dogs involved, but I'm curious to hear what people's atual experiences are. 

And yes, I'm considering doing one.


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## Jay Quinn

i have a pup from a half-sibling breeding, where the dams of the dog and bitch were also half siblings... not something i would have done personally but it's a long story... i think the pups were a bit of a mixed bag, and i got the only male... 

he is currently 18mths old and is a total nutcase, very social but completely obnoxious, yet when the pressure is applied becomes quite civil... he hurls himself about the place with everything he can, and no regard whatsoever for personal safety - either his own or whoever he is crashing into... he has pain tolerance through the roof, and is pretty environmentally sound, though will still spook very occasionally... when he does he recovers quickly... he has drive out the wazoo and i can see a lot of his sire in him but i didn't really know his dam... he is an ugly little prick though - his sisters were much nicer lol

i have seen one sister work and she is very nice, but she was the pick bitch from the litter... i believe another is currently up for sale again but i don't know the reasons... 

pup was linebred on Kukay's Aras (grandsire) and Dano van het Stokeind (great grandsire), if that's any help


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## brad robert

Had many dogs from half brother sister breeding and done the breeding myself and almost always the dogs from those litters were smaller in overall size..and the looks were nothing to rave about either but some also had incredible drives and hardness as well.


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## Jessica Lewis

brad robert said:


> Had many dogs from half brother sister breeding and done the breeding myself and almost always the dogs from those litters were smaller in overall size..and the looks were nothing to rave about either but some also had incredible drives and hardness as well.


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## Kadi Thingvall

I should add to the question what were the sire and dam like themselves, and do people think the sire/dam came through, or the grandparents, or were the results a complete suprise of "where the heck did that come from?"


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## Stefan Schaub

Kadi Thingvall said:


> I should add to the question what were the sire and dam like themselves, and do people think the sire/dam came through, or the grandparents, or were the results a complete suprise of "where the heck did that come from?"


i Like your question!!!
but how many people have really work the parents and grandparents or have seen them working and how many of these people have really a clue what they see and really how many people know the difference between good and bad and on the end every one have a different mind what makes a dog good or bad.


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## Kadi Thingvall

Stefan Schaub said:


> i Like your question!!!
> but how many people have really work the parents and grandparents or have seen them working and how many of these people have really a clue what they see and really how many people know the difference between good and bad and on the end every one have a different mind what makes a dog good or bad.


In my situation the male was an import so I don't know his parents personally, but I do know many of his relatives. On the bitches side though she's the 5th generation of dogs I've owned, 4th of my own breeding, and I owned and/or worked both the sire and dam in each breeding so ...  Owned 3 of the sires, was the training decoy for the 4th.


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## Anna Kasho

I had an uncle/niece litter twice, and planning on a father/daughter combo (if it works, the male is really old). The uncle/niece was interesting, a lot of variation with the pups being predominantly different combinations of traits of the two linebred grandparents, with a few others from one grandsire who was inbred himself but not linebred on. Nice pups, very predictable temperament following their look. One quirky "small size gene combo" that showed up to produce two little bitches, one in each litter, also predictable to see if you know what to look at from an early age.

The father/daughter I am hoping will be a little more consistent in size/look/temperament (maybe) and also ideally show me some of the faults/defects in the lines so I'll know what I've got. I may have to cull heavily. Something to keep in mind.

Also to add, I would definitely buy from linebred/inbred breedings if I know the genetics behind them are good, and I get one of the better pups that I like. For breeding purposes, the dog produces him/herself more consistently than a scatterbred...


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## Zakia Days

I've seen two line/inbred dogs work. The first is a good worker, but he has kind of a weird look (structure) to him. The other was a female that was super small with ridiculous prey drive. Too much. So much I think it made her dangerous. Not sure what happened to her. Both were "mistake" breedings. If I'm not mistaken, they came from youl Kadi. I don't remember the details or how "tight" the breeding was, but I remember the dogs. Neither is _*that*_ old. I own a linebred dog. I am not opposed to it. I've seen that super small result a lot. I've also seen some not so good working dog structure (but the drives were ridiculous. all drives) come out of inbreeding. I am not a breeder, but I've seen breeders I know do it. Good luck with it all.


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## Kadi Thingvall

Zakia Days said:


> Both were "mistake" breedings. If I'm not mistaken, they came from youl Kadi. I don't remember the details or how "tight" the breeding was, but I remember the dogs. Neither is _*that*_ old.


Not if they were mistake breedings and they are younger they didn't. I've had one "oops" breeding of Malinois at my place that also happened to be a mother/son breeding, my son put his in heat female outside with her intact son. Those dogs are 7 years old now. One is back east doing French Ring so it's possible you've seen him.

Do you remember the dogs names?


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## eric squires

I have done several linebreedings of aunt to nefew. It turned out very well. I owned a male years ago that was produced from half sibling breeding. They had the same father.That dog produced cookie cutter dogs from outcross breedings. I believe linebreeding is a good tool. I had a professior years ago who told me that you linebreed to find the weakness in the lines so you can outcross later on and fix the weak traits. He was heavily linebreeding cattle to this end. The best crosses he said came from two unrelated linebred animals. I am planning on some linebreeding in the future on dogs i have produced and know the dogs very far back in the pedigrees.


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## Joby Becker

I have done it, and know many others that have too. of course with mixed results..

VL has done at least a couple father daughter type breedings. Megan Bays had one.

the cleaner the lines and more inbred they are, the more consistent they will be..

all breeds I think were founded upon fairly tight inbreeding, and most "bloodlines" are too.

extended inbreeding (generational and intensity) seems to have a tendency to downsize in size and litter size, at least from what I know of..

my current pup is from 1/2 brother to 1/2 sister, or possibly even full brother to sister breeding..both sides have same grandfather and both females on bottoms have same birthdate and parents listed (LOL)..so either way if not full brother sister, both grandpas are same dog, and both grandmas are of same breeding..

jury is still out..pup seems typical for the bloodline of grandfather, as far as looks...tail is extra long...pup is 70 lbs at 7 months, female dutch lines Mali type.


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## Kristi Molina

Kadi already knows this, so it's not helpful, but it's interesting many of you mention the puppies ending up overly small. I have a father/daughter inbred dog and she is tiny for a GSD. Why is that?


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## eric squires

Linebreeding or inbreeding reduces the number of genes or more accurately the variation of genes so if there are genes for smaller stature they are then consentrated resulting in smaller dogs. Plus with outcrossing vs inbreeding you get heterois or hybrid vigor resulting in possible animals larger than the parents


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## Lynda Myers

I actually just recently acquired a heavy inbred American Bulldog and when I say inbred I mean there is no fork in family tree http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/american_bulldog/dog.html?id=929813-chestnuts-little-makawee
I believe there are only one or two of Daisho's siblings (brothers who train and compete in Mondio) here in the States. Daisho's breeder is in Germany.
For her type (standard/hybrid)she is of average size about 22 inches tall and 60-65lbs at 3 1/2 years old and has normal heat cycles. She doesn't seem to have the food allergies or other skin issues that have been associated with other dogs bred here in the states that are related to Daisho through her great grandsire (sire side).
And so far she has exhibited a good temperament, is smart for a bulldog and has the ability and desire to do the work, which now is IPO. Up until recently she was being trained in Mondio as well.


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## Joby Becker

Lynda Myers said:


> I actually just recently acquired a heavy inbred American Bulldog and when I say inbred I mean there is no fork in family tree http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/american_bulldog/dog.html?id=929813-chestnuts-little-makawee
> I believe there are only one or two of Daisho's siblings (brothers who train and compete in Mondio) here in the States. Daisho's breeder is in Germany.
> For her type (standard/hybrid)she is of average size about 22 inches tall and 60-65lbs at 3 1/2 years old and has normal heat cycles. She doesn't seem to have the food allergies or other skin issues that have been associated with other dogs bred here in the states that are related to Daisho through her great grandsire (sire side).
> And so far she has exhibited a good temperament, is smart for a bulldog and has the ability and desire to do the work, which now is IPO. Up until recently she was being trained in Mondio as well.


this is exactly what the pedigree looks like for Slow Moe, but dog is Mali type.
If the pedigree is truthful that is.


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## Jeanne Meldrim

Kadi Thingvall said:


> Not if they were mistake breedings and they are younger they didn't. I've had one "oops" breeding of Malinois at my place that also happened to be a mother/son breeding, my son put his in heat female outside with her intact son. Those dogs are 7 years old now. One is back east doing French Ring so it's possible you've seen him.
> 
> Do you remember the dogs names?


Kadi, it does appear that Zakia is talking about my dogs, she has seen both of them.


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## Bob Scott

I'm not a breeder but I've worked with numerous terriers that were heavily inbred. Lots of culling involved but most of them were cookie cutter workers in the ground as well as physically. 
My own JRT was bred pretty tight. I hunted with both parents and all four grand parents. All solid hunters but the mom was also nuckin futs. Guess which one my pup took after?! ](*,)](*,) 
He was still a great little earth dog though.


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## Wendy Schmitt

I am pondering a father daughter breeding myself. The daughter was an outcross and her mother was tightly line bred and stamped her self pretty good with the good but also the bad. I'd like to then breed back to the sire and really stamp him in. However not really a fan of inbreeding for health reasons. I have seen high numbers of cancer in resulting such litters.

Wendy


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## brad robert

eric squires said:


> I have done several linebreedings of aunt to nefew. It turned out very well. I owned a male years ago that was produced from half sibling breeding. They had the same father.That dog produced cookie cutter dogs from outcross breedings. I believe linebreeding is a good tool. I had a professior years ago who told me that you linebreed to find the weakness in the lines so you can outcross later on and fix the weak traits. He was heavily linebreeding cattle to this end. The best crosses he said came from two unrelated linebred animals. I am planning on some linebreeding in the future on dogs i have produced and know the dogs very far back in the pedigrees.


Have to agree with this..i recently saw a litter where the dam was from a half brother and half sister breeding and the sire was bred exactly the same but both dogs were from different lines and the pups were freaking dynamite


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## Kadi Thingvall

Wendy Schmitt said:


> I am pondering a father daughter breeding myself. The daughter was an outcross and her mother was tightly line bred and stamped her self pretty good with the good but also the bad. I'd like to then breed back to the sire and really stamp him in. However not really a fan of inbreeding for health reasons. I have seen high numbers of cancer in resulting such litters.
> 
> Wendy


This sounds very similar to what I'm considering. Father/Daughter. The Daughter is from an outcross, although her mother wasn't tightly linebred the mother line in this case definitely stamps the offspring. This daughter though is a lot like her father in many ways, more so than some of her siblings who take after the mother line stonger.

For those who are curious, this would be the pedigree
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/breeding.result?father=1597193&mother=810716


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## dewon fields

I'm surprised no one is bashing yall yet on this topic. Saying "leave it to the experts" or "whats the purpose"? 

We inbred/linebred APBT for decades. Father daughter/ mother-son breedings never was a problem. But sibling to sibling was different. Some came out cross eyed, bat eared, bobtailed ect. We culled hard and the ones we kept were used as broodstock. Then we outcrossed those.

For those who are curious, this would be the pedigree
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/bree...&mother=810716

Vass covering his daughte Pak looks good on paper. Kira is the out. DO IT! Looks good to me.


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## Kadi Thingvall

dewon fields said:


> I'm surprised no one is bashing yall yet on this topic. Saying "leave it to the experts" or "whats the purpose"?


That's why I asked here and not somewhere like the PDB  more actual experience and level heads (in general ) I figured if people said "don't do it" they would actually have a valid reason for their opinion vs "it's morally wrong" or "the SV doesn't allow it"


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## Melissa Blazak

Funny, this is what some in the standard poodle community are trying to get away from due to genetic bottlenecks in the breed.

Perhaps the Mal still has a lot of genetic variety left in the breed to be able to do this sort of thing regularly. I am just curious and realize you select for working ability amogst other things instead of appearance (which is what happened with the standards) but could it not eventually lead to the same sort of issues? Could you eleborate? 

Here is info on the Standard Poodle Project which explains what happened. Actually fascinating reading on K9 genetics.

http://www.standardpoodleproject.com/

If you scroll down to the bottom you will see a link for the Canine Diversity Project and information on Diversity in Poodles.


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## eric squires

Diffinately more genetic variation in the Malinios and in particular the KNPV dogs both the Malis and Dutchies. This is why linebreeding is a possible without the severe genetic bottlenecking you see in other breeds currently. With the KNPV dogs there is new genetics added to the lines often.


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## Matt Vandart

Wendy Schmitt said:


> I am pondering a father daughter breeding myself. The daughter was an outcross and her mother was tightly line bred and stamped her self pretty good with the good but also the bad. I'd like to then breed back to the sire and really stamp him in. However not really a fan of inbreeding for health reasons. I have seen high numbers of cancer in resulting such litters.
> 
> Wendy


Wendy I can see why you would want to fix the sires traits in your line but I'm pretty sure dobes need to move away from line and in breeding for at least a while. No disrespect meant but I would remain no fan of inbreeding myself.

Interesting this topic should come up though because I went to look at a prospect male mal on the weekend I may have a chance of obtaining.

He was inbred, I personally liked him a lot, he was calm, drive and a very good worker. I am still looking into him. Maybe you lot can help.


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## rick smith

since we are no longer just hearing from those actually doing this type of breeding but discussing breeding philosophy....
i ask this :

if inbreeding has been shown to eventually result in breed weakness, why would saying that the mal is currently a more vigorous breed that can handle this type of breeding be used to support inbreeding ?
...almost seems like an "it's ok for awhile if the breed is healthy enuff" type rationale ... iow : rather shortsighted 

i'd also be interested in how the KNPV breeders have been promoting genetic vigor thru their crossbreeding ... is there data available to support this, or are they just mixing gsd/mal/DS blood based on breeder prefs for behaviors they like in various lines as opposed to breeding larger sizes, etc ?

assuming there is agreement that too much inbreeding will bring probs, (which might not be a good assumption), at what point do you stop and return to the traditional cross breeding methods ?

if this isn't the direction Kadi wanted the thread to go, feel free not to respond, but i have always been interested in the limits to inbreeding, that's why i ask


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## Anna Kasho

By the same token, when problems surface due to inbreeding, you know what those problems are, and if you wanted, you could possibly select to remove them from the gene pool....

Just something to think about...


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## Ataro Muse

You can't remove individual bad genes with that strategy - you would be removing the entire dog and multiple genes (both bad and good), thereby reducing diversity even further.


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## Anna Kasho

Ataro Muse said:


> You can't remove individual bad genes with that strategy - you would be removing the entire dog and multiple genes (both bad and good), thereby reducing diversity even further.


OK, longer explanation. Its crude and would take a lot of test breedings, but yes, you could identify who carries what dertimental trait. If the parent carries it, you can still breed them and then test offspring - if any will produce it they are carriers also. Once you know, you can remove it from breeding. Reducing diversity as a whole, yes. Improving your line by removing the defects, yes. All theoretical so far, since you'd need to work with a large number of dogs to make it possible.

If all your breedings are random, you do not know where the bad gene comes from or who has it or if it is there at all.


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## Martin Koops

Have a female Malinois full brother sister mating. She's over five years old now, no issues so far.
Nice female quick to learn & athletic.

Have kept in touch with the owner of one of the litter brothers who is like wise very happy.

My girl is 62cm- 28kg and the Male litter mate is 66cm- 38kg.


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## Mario Fernandez

Kadi:

Take a look at a pedigree program like Man's Best friend.. IMHO it was the best program most accurate to give you the % of COI (Wright Coefficient) expected percentage of homozygosity. 

People would be surprised in you looked at the breeding on our food source, cattle, poultry, especially dairy...Not uncommon to see a dog appear 3- 4x in a 3-4 gen ped on most APBT peds. The real APBT not these mongrels they are producing today. APBT were one on the healthier breed of dogs. 
Some of the best producing males and females in APBT in history had a COI from in the high 20's -30's, some have in the high 30's low 40's With no size reduction or genetic defects. 

Line breeding is just a weak form of inbreeding. My GSD friends and I have constant debate... "the SV says this" or "the health of the GSD" my question always is this to them even after over 100 years on breeding why is that HD is still rampant in the GSD ... I hear the dog is line bred on Fero for ex. who is 5-5 in the pedigree for example. In a 5 generation pedigree (62 dogs), his genetic worth will be minimal at best with 60 other dogs adding to the mix. 

As most know inbreeding is not a short term fix..you need to know the family of dogs you deal with and be prepared to be working with several individual dogs all of the same family...stuff will pop up and you will need to cull. If you are breeding crap and inbreeding a very high probability you are going to get crap...so be truthful. At the same some breed of dogs have no choice to inbreed, you can never isolate the traits you want unless you use the family of dogs you like. Just doing a father/daughter or mother/son breeding is only a band aid. Get you a high COI but you should be breeding the sires litter mate or the dam litter mate ect...

Been toying with the idea to re-purchasing the Man Best friend and playing around with Mals peds. That is if the Mals peds are accurate, which majority are not..but suspect more inbreeding in Mals than was is let on.

Regards,

Mario


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## Kadi Thingvall

Mario Fernandez said:


> Kadi:
> 
> Take a look at a pedigree program like Man's Best friend.. IMHO it was the best program most accurate to give you the % of COI (Wright Coefficient) expected percentage of homozygosity.


I have a program called Pedi that was originally written by a Belgian fancier, so it came with a database of Belgian pedigrees as a bonus. It will figure the COI's in addition to other information. 

I've heard of Man's Best Friend, I"ll have to google it. Do you know if they have an import feature? I already have a few thousand dogs in my database, would NOT want to start from scratch inputing info LOL



> Been toying with the idea to re-purchasing the Man Best friend and playing around with Mals peds. That is if the Mals peds are accurate, which majority are not..but suspect more inbreeding in Mals than was is let on.


Yeah, there is always that factor.


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## Katie Finlay

Kadi Thingvall said:


> I have a program called Pedi that was originally written by a Belgian fancier, so it came with a database of Belgian pedigrees as a bonus. It will figure the COI's in addition to other information.
> 
> I've heard of Man's Best Friend, I"ll have to google it. Do you know if they have an import feature? I already have a few thousand dogs in my database, would NOT want to start from scratch inputing info LOL
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, there is always that factor.


That's fascinating! Seriously!


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## Mario Fernandez

It's been some years, had the XP version, that was several computers ago...had a good database of APBT/AB/ started doing GSD, rotties and Mals for friends to give them ideas....I still have the hard drive some where...the program I used was called compuped , Man's Best friend bought the company...


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## Lynda Myers

Mario Fernandez said:


> Kadi:
> 
> Take a look at a pedigree program like Man's Best friend.. IMHO it was the best program most accurate to give you the % of COI (Wright Coefficient) expected percentage of homozygosity.
> 
> People would be surprised in you looked at the breeding on our food source, cattle, poultry, especially dairy...Not uncommon to see a dog appear 3- 4x in a 3-4 gen ped on most APBT peds. *The real APBT not these mongrels they are producing today. APBT were one on the healthier breed of dogs.
> Some of the best producing males and females in APBT in history had a COI from in the high 20's -30's, some have in the high 30's low 40's With no size reduction or genetic defects.
> *
> Line breeding is just a weak form of inbreeding. My GSD friends and I have constant debate... "the SV says this" or "the health of the GSD" my question always is this to them even after over 100 years on breeding why is that HD is still rampant in the GSD ... I hear the dog is line bred on Fero for ex. who is 5-5 in the pedigree for example. In a 5 generation pedigree (62 dogs), his genetic worth will be minimal at best with 60 other dogs adding to the mix.
> 
> As most know inbreeding is not a short term fix..you need to know the family of dogs you deal with and be prepared to be working with several individual dogs all of the same family...stuff will pop up and you will need to cull. If you are breeding crap and inbreeding a very high probability you are going to get crap...so be truthful. At the same some breed of dogs have no choice to inbreed, you can never isolate the traits you want unless you use the family of dogs you like. Just doing a father/daughter or mother/son breeding is only a band aid. Get you a high COI but you should be breeding the sires litter mate or the dam litter mate ect...
> 
> Been toying with the idea to re-purchasing the Man Best friend and playing around with Mals peds. That is if the Mals peds are accurate, which majority are not..but suspect more inbreeding in Mals than was is let on.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Mario


I think what hinders most programs that practice inbreeding is they don't follow it up with testing hard and culling even harder. Something the Pitmen of old did with a vengeance. Most are too soft emotionally to follow through or make allowances for poor specimens and continue to use them in their breeding programs.


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## Bob Scott

If you think about it this is how most of our "breeds" got started.
The inability to travel often meant that one particular stud fathered a lot of pups in a given town. He may have been the town roamer or just the go to dog because he was the best in the area for what you wanted. 
Many of the terrier breeds were named after the town or area they came from. Border Terrier, Scottish Terrier, West Highland White Terrier, Staffordshire Terrier, Welsh Terrier, Lakeland Terrier, yadda, yadda. 
The German Shepherd did much of the same job as the Belgians. Same basic "type". They were just from different areas. My guess is that in overlap areas the dogs were very similar and you could call them pretty much whatever you liked.


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## dewon fields

our top stud Marvin was 3x frisco. Frisco was his dad, granddad, and great granddad. One of the best dogs we had. He produced himself over & over again. You could bred him to a beagle, and get some nice dogs. He died last summer at 14yo. I still got folks calling me want to use him as stud.

http://www.apbt-pedigrees.com/site/pedigree/929431


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## dewon fields

Bob Scott said:


> If you think about it this is how most of our "breeds" got started.
> The inability to travel often meant that one particular stud fathered a lot of pups in a given town. He may have been the town roamer or just the go to dog because he was the best in the area for what you wanted.
> Many of the terrier breeds were named after the town or area they came from. Border Terrier, Scottish Terrier, West Highland White Terrier, Staffordshire Terrier, Welsh Terrier, Lakeland Terrier, yadda, yadda.
> The German Shepherd did much of the same job as the Belgians. Same basic "type". They were just from different areas. My guess is that in overlap areas the dogs were very similar and you could call them pretty much whatever you liked.


Your right, thats how this " American Bully" breed started. they're just poodles in pitbull bodies.


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## Melissa Blazak

Right now at the Institute of Canine Biology there is an e-course started (1st week, this week is reading week!) in population genetics for dog breeders. 

This first class is 8 weeks and is for all breeds. The instructors will teach breed specific ones if asked and if the minimum amount of students reach 30. There are several breeds already up and gathering members, ready to start after the basic course. I have no science or genetic background but have signed up for it. Might be worth checking out for those of you who are interested. It's only $95 for the 8 weeks.

http://www.instituteofcaninebiology.org/courses.html

Here is the outline of course for Standard Poodles. Individual breed courses would address the same issues.

*Basic Population Genetics of Poodles*

*Instructors: Carol Beuchat, PhD & Lynn Bruckner
*









​
*Background and content of the course*

Poodles have been around since long before the development of kennel clubs and appear in many artworks as early as the 15th century. They were revered as one of the most intelligent and versatile hunting dogs and were especially useful for water work. They are one of a number of breeds that are similar in type and talent (and likely related) that were developed regionally in Europe and Russia, and all with closely-curled (or corded), ever-growing coat such as the Barbet (France), Irish water spaniel, English water spaniel, Spanish water dog, Pont-Audemer spaniel (France).

Every breed has significant events in its history - wars, outbreaks of disease, swings in popularity, and so on. For Poodles, the significant historic event is Wycliffe. The history and influence of Jean Lyle and her Wycliffe Kennel are well-documented (see references below), and suffice it to say that this kennel was so influential, and its dogs so widely used in breeding programs, that it created a bottleneck in the breed so severe that it is hard to find a Standard whose pedigree doesn't go through this kennel.

In fact, Standard Poodle Breeders assess not only coefficient of inbreeding (COI) of their dogs, but also something called "% Wycliffe", that specifically assesses the amount of Wycliffe blood in the ancestry. The reason they do this is the suspicion that several genetic diseases are associated with greater influence of Wycliffe in the pedigree. A population bottleneck is precisely the sort of event that can cause an increase in the number of genetic problems because it can profoundly reduce the genetic diversity of the gene pool and inadvertently increase the frequency of deleterious alleles in the population.

What about Miniature and Toy Poodles? DNA analysis indicates that Miniatures and Toys are not Standard Poodles made small. The smaller sizes appear to be genetically unique - as different from Standard Poodles as they are to a completely unrelated breed such as the English Setter. They also have a different DLA profile, carrying haplotypes not found in Standard Poodles that have been tested thus far. 

*In the Population Genetics Course for Poodle Breeders, *we will discuss the factors that can result in changes in the allele frequencies in a breed's gene pool, which include not only selection by breeders, but also forces that are completely random and therefore beyond the control and knowledge of breeders. We will talk about how the breed's history has resulted in the increasing number of health problems faced by breeders, and what we can learn from the very recent research on the genetics of the immune system (MHC DLA) and sebaceous adenitis by Dr Niels Pedersen (UC Davis) and Dr Lorna Kennedy (UK). We will learn about the recent discovery of the likely genetic basis of the digital cancer occurring exclusively in black standard poodles, why light colored dogs don't have this problem, and why this new information is _not_ good news for breeders. We will learn why a recent move to ban parti-color poodles from registration in Canada could significantly damage the genetic base of breed as a whole. We will see how the way breeders typically use DNA test results is _likely to be making matters worse_, and what breeders can do to use this information properly and get the breed back on the path to long life and good health.​


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## Kadi Thingvall

I decided to go ahead with this breeding, and will post info on the litter here as they are born and develop if anyone is interested.

I also ran some COI's on various dogs that I grabbed somewhat at random. I know there are some breeding programs that have very high COIs as the norm, but there are a lot of programs out there like mine, with numbers like this I don't think we need to worry about bottlenecks any time soon. These were all from 5 generations, I ran a few out to 8 but it didn't make much difference, maybe .5-1%

Kita - 4.1 
Nexxus - 2.2
CC - 6
Ares - 4.6
Mac - 6
CJ - 6.3
Raptor - 5.5

My 2 highest COIs
Lory - 9.3 (2:3 G'Bibber)
Lilly - 16.3 (1/2 sibling breeding)

And the breeding I'm planning will be
Mac x Kita - 25.9


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## Melissa Blazak

I have always loved your site and all the things you do with your dogs Kadi!


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## Lisa Radcliffe

Kadi Thingvall said:


> I decided to go ahead with this breeding, and will post info on the litter here as they are born and develop if anyone is interested.
> 
> I also ran some COI's on various dogs that I grabbed somewhat at random. I know there are some breeding programs that have very high COIs as the norm, but there are a lot of programs out there like mine, with numbers like this I don't think we need to worry about bottlenecks any time soon. These were all from 5 generations, I ran a few out to 8 but it didn't make much difference, maybe .5-1%
> 
> Kita - 4.1
> Nexxus - 2.2
> CC - 6
> Ares - 4.6
> Mac - 6
> CJ - 6.3
> Raptor - 5.5
> 
> My 2 highest COIs
> Lory - 9.3 (2:3 G'Bibber)
> Lilly - 16.3 (1/2 sibling breeding)
> 
> And the breeding I'm planning will be
> Mac x Kita - 25.9


Hi Kadi, Great thread! Thanks to keep us posted as this is very interesting! I hope I will get to train with one of the off spring as most of the Mal's I train with are from your breedings my Mal is the odd one out  The little Enzo female is super! good luck as you move forward in this breeding- Lisa


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## Zakia Days

As Bob and Dewon have alluded to, albeit intentionally or not, I think certain breeds just do better with inbreeding than others. I know several old school APBT breeders that performed such breedings all the time. Still do today. With good results. Terriers also inbreed well from what I've seen. Typing from my phone, so I can't comment like I want to.


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## Amber Scott Dyer

So, since there seems to be a general consensus that linebreeding/inbreeding helps build and concentrate drive and desirable working traits in the litter (disregarding any discussion of health issues in theory), does that also mean that outcrosses are generally less reliable producers?

For example, if you had a litter from two really strong dogs that were both from good bloodlines, but no common ancestors for several generations, and another litter from two equally strong dogs that had a high COI, what would you expect in comparison? 

I know that I have heard from conformation show breeders before that an outcross litter tends to produce less consistent offspring, which makes sense - some will be outstanding, but a good percentage of the litter will turn out to be pet quality; whereas a tightly linebred litter will produce more consistently good puppies, but not as many "outliers" - very few really super pups. This makes sense in theory, just because of genetics. But what would you then expect from those outstanding pups as future breeding prospects? 

Obviously as a conformation breeder, you would be more inclined to have the outstanding pups to keep and send the rest to pet homes, so the first scenario would work fine, but as a working breeder, you need to have pups that are consistently able to do the work to some degree, because there's a lack of suitable pet homes for those pups.

I'm interested to hear what Kadi and other breeders' experiences have been.


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## Joby Becker

Amber Scott said:


> So, since there seems to be a general consensus that linebreeding/inbreeding helps build and concentrate drive and desirable working traits in the litter (disregarding any discussion of health issues in theory), does that also mean that outcrosses are generally less reliable producers?
> 
> For example, if you had a litter from two really strong dogs that were both from good bloodlines, but no common ancestors for several generations, and another litter from two equally strong dogs that had a high COI, what would you expect in comparison?
> 
> I know that I have heard from conformation show breeders before that an outcross litter tends to produce less consistent offspring, which makes sense - some will be outstanding, but a good percentage of the litter will turn out to be pet quality; whereas a tightly linebred litter will produce more consistently good puppies, but not as many "outliers" - very few really super pups. This makes sense in theory, just because of genetics. But what would you then expect from those outstanding pups as future breeding prospects?
> 
> Obviously as a conformation breeder, you would be more inclined to have the outstanding pups to keep and send the rest to pet homes, so the first scenario would work fine, but as a working breeder, you need to have pups that are consistently able to do the work to some degree, because there's a lack of suitable pet homes for those pups.
> 
> I'm interested to hear what Kadi and other breeders' experiences have been.


I think that would depend on what traits are more "genetically" dominant, which polygenic traits had what genes dominantly expressed genetically within them.


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## Kadi Thingvall

Lisa Radcliffe said:


> Hi Kadi, Great thread! Thanks to keep us posted as this is very interesting! I hope I will get to train with one of the off spring as most of the Mal's I train with are from your breedings my Mal is the odd one out  The little Enzo female is super! good luck as you move forward in this breeding- Lisa


Thanks. The female I'm doing this breeding with, Kita, is the mother of that Enzo pup.



Amber Scott said:


> So, since there seems to be a general consensus that linebreeding/inbreeding helps build and concentrate drive and desirable working traits in the litter (disregarding any discussion of health issues in theory), does that also mean that outcrosses are generally less reliable producers?


What Joby said  Some dogs are prepotent, regardless of how inbred they are or aren't. For example I had a female named Chaos with a COI of 6%. Not a total outcross but not a super high COI either. She is only higher than 1% on 2 dogs. But she reproduced herself in her kids. In many ways, grips, character, and looks. This is Chaos (right) with her son Lestat (left) around 18 months old who has a COI of 4%


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## Ralph Tough

some good reading.
http://www.westwindgsps.com/linebreeding.htm


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## rick smith

very interesting link Ralph....Tx for posting it
obviously the authors are VERY pro-linebreeding; to the extent that they consider "hybrid vigor" a theory that is irrelevant and potentially detrimental to producing a desired result in an animal species

i get it, i really do.....but i still have a question, and it refers to the real world vice a human manipulated breeding philosophy :

why do animals in the wild cross breed rather than inbreed ? and if it was a such bad think to do, why are species maintained fairly well when cross bred and weakened when the "theoretical hybrid vigor" is lost ?

is it strictly that we inbreed to focus on just a few traits (making milk, running fast, etc) because we only care about those specific traits ?

lastly, why don't humans inbreed ?


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## Ralph Tough

All my dogs are linebred/inbred, and so far there has been no problems, if any thing I have noted more positives. e.g. health, character and size.

More info on breeding.
http://siriusdog.com/bell-pedigree-analysis-genetic-diversity.htm


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## Terrasita Cuffie

I don't know why there is an assumption of less than ideal health with linebreeding/inbreeding. I've known of certain dogs that were prepotent/dominant for improving health. Linebred/inbred, there were certain health positives that you were pretty much going to get. I've done well with linebreeding and outcrossing. The outcross [nothing in common in the first 6 generations I think] was to a male that was dominant for producing certain traits. I got what I wanted. The ideal outcross is usually two breeding partners that are themselves linebred and strong for producing certain traits but unrelated to each other. 

T


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## Zakia Days

Thank you Terracita. Exactly what I was thinking and my "style" of line breeding. Works very well.


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## Amber Scott Dyer

rick smith said:


> why do animals in the wild cross breed rather than inbreed ? and if it was a such bad think to do, why are species maintained fairly well when cross bred and weakened when the "theoretical hybrid vigor" is lost ?


theoretically, the reason that sex exists in the first place (asexual reproduction is generally considered to be a lot less messy and a more conservative use of resources from an evolutionary standpoint ) is related to the 'Red Queen' idea - you have to evolve as quickly as you can just to compete with the other organisms that are evolving around you. So you sexually reproduce - or cross breed - in order to promote genetic diversity. bacteria and parasites evolve much more quickly than we do because of their shorter life cycle, so cross breeding and changing up the genetic makeup of the host helps to keep other organisms from rapidly evolving to break through your defenses. 

not necessarily saying anything about our pet dogs, just answering the question :-D


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## Joby Becker

rick smith said:


> *why do animals in the wild cross breed rather than inbreed ?* and if it was a such bad think to do, why are species maintained fairly well when cross bred and weakened when the "theoretical hybrid vigor" is lost ?



*LOTS OF ANIMALS IN THE WILD INBREED in various degrees and modes.*



rick smith said:


> is it strictly that we inbreed to focus on just a few traits (making milk, running fast, etc) because we only care about those specific traits ?


*I think that depends on the focus of the breedings being chosen, but I would not say that a person only cares about those traits, it could just be that everything else is up to par but improvements or maintining the speed or milk production is highly desirable, and if it can be done through inbreeding, it is often done. .
*


rick smith said:


> lastly, why don't humans inbreed ?


*some do...*


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## Catherine Gervin

*some do...*[/QUOTE]
that cracks me up because it's totally true, and the stigma attached in the U.S. is not necessarily present in other cultures...
i worked with 3 really awesome Brazillian brothers in a kitchen a few years ago and they would go on and on about one of their cousins--they had many, but this one was the only girl ever really mentioned and it turns out the oldest brother had been dating her for years before coming here. she herself was coming on a student Visa and moving in w/ them, staying in the one brother's room like any girlfriend in her 20's might do, and they had an eye on getting married.
when asked, no, the entire family was not pleased but hey, at least she had found a good provider, rather than the suitors available back in their own provincial town.
the cousins were shocked that it was illegal here, and seemed saddened but also agreed when i said not to tell people they were related when the one brother introduced his fiancee, that it would embarrass her rather than let people meet and appreciate her...


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## Zakia Days

Joby Becker said:


> *LOTS OF ANIMALS IN THE WILD INBREED in various degrees and modes.*
> 
> 
> 
> *I think that depends on the focus of the breedings being chosen, but I would not say that a person only cares about those traits, it could just be that everything else is up to par but improvements or maintining the speed or milk production is highly desirable, and if it can be done through inbreeding, it is often done. .
> *
> 
> 
> *some do...*


Inbreeding in human beings has had monstrous results. Ask the DuPonts how that worked out for them. I'm sure you googled that before you asked the question.


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## Holden Sawyer

Coming from the APBT world (and also a background in conformation), I am familiar with linebreeding and inbreeding. I was curious how it would work for working qualities in addition to structure, very interesting to read that the experience of some that drives were increased. I was fascinated that so many working dog people do not use even linebreeding and was asking about it, my guess was that linebreeding would not work for working drives as they are so complex. So I am eager to see what you get out of this litter as the results here seem to say the opposite may be true. The thing about unrelated linebred dogs being used as an outcross may be true. I have a bitch pup right now that is knocking my socks off. Her littermates also seem outstanding. Good luck and keep us posted, fascinating thread! Thanks for posting!


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## Terrasita Cuffie

*some do...*[/QUOTE]

That was a spit your green tea statement if ever I've read one. 

Too funny.

Oh and animals in the wild aren't engaging in captive selective breeding to establish certain traits and don't care about such things.

T


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## Jim Delbridge

Inbreeding can easily accentuate poor genetics in the line as well as accentuate good genetic traits. Not only was the banjo player in the movie, Deliverence, suggested to be the result of inbreeding, but over the millenia many royalty have been the result of inbreeding. With royalty, they got trapped into the idea that a royal could only wed another royal and many of the royalty were related early on.
Soooo, inbreeding might produce a really good puppy, but statistically some on the other end of the genetic roll of the dice should produce. Many breeders that create a program of tight lines accomodate this by allowing the culls to die off. Humans are the only species that consider this uncivilized and immoral, so we have a much larger plethora of genetic defects. Both religions and politics utlize this as their bread and butter. I'll leave it at that.

Along the same vein, rarely will a litter produced by two canine superstars produce all superstars as well, yet we have many breeders that swear the entire litter is superb stock. This is why no matter how good the reputation of the breeder and his/her dogs, caveat emptor needs to be the rule for any potential puppy buyer.

regards,

jim delbridge


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## Terrasita Cuffie

I think you can select for and stamp a line with certain working traits. I have a dog that is bred top and bottom with a dominant sire line. They infused some stuff along the way for looks particularly through the dams and brought in some undesirable traits. I ran the pedigree through one of the online COI calculators. When you do the "percent of blood by ancestor," the desired sire is 28.125%. The one that doesn't bring much to the table is 12.5%. The inbreeding contribution of the desired sire is 3.9% and the undesired 0.58%. I think the linebreeding on the desired sire is 3-5,3. I've worked the four males throughout their lives. They are now age 2 and they all work. They have another year yet before they are what they are going to be. You can look at all of them and see which part of the pedigree they represent. Phenotypically, they don't look anything alike. There is over the top prey drive with no off switch in two. There is pretty high drive in the other with an off switch. The fourth doesn't have the confidence of the other three and the confidence level is different in all four when you look at how they relate to the handler, environment and stock. They've been in and out as far as phases and they aren't done yet so final eval is after age 3. I'm pretty sure where the flakiness came in and I would say its fairly potent having tested a maternal aunt and spoke with her owner regarding her general temperament. Luckily, the dam of the litter is much stronger than her sister.

The bottom line is that if you are going to inbreed, you do have to keep eliminating negatives and don't bring in known negatives. Every time you breed with that stock thereafter, you strengthen those negatives. I never jump to the conclusion of just because its line/inbred means that it will be what I want since I haven't seen a pedigree yet that didn't have a negative in it somewhere or litters that were mentally/physically, that uniform. However, theoretically, I think there are lines of dogs [albeit few] where they have selected phenotypically and genotypically, so long that you can depend on certain things. 

T


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## rick smith

my Q was : why don't humans inbreed ?
.....NOT, do humans ever inbreed ?

since it has been pointed out that some humans do and that it seemed fine for them, but it didn't work out for others and brought on genetic problems, who is correct ?

i'm really talking about dogs even tho i brought up other animals and the "mother nature" aspect, and i realize there are exceptions 

but i really don't know the answers, and was just trying to add perspective by mentioning other species which WEREN'T discussed in the gun dog article that heavily promoted linebreeding/inbreeding

i understand the basic goals of linebreeding and or inbreeding for limited generations, so it is starting to look that we humans can do it too, but that still doesn't answer my Q's ](*,)

except that inbreeding is great for artificially (man made) created species that serve a purpose, as long as it isn't done too long. would that be more accurate ?
that inbreeding is ok in the short run ?

if so, seems like it might be a shortsighted goal for breeding, regardless of species


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## Terrasita Cuffie

rick smith said:


> my Q was : why don't humans inbreed ?
> .....NOT, do humans ever inbreed ?
> 
> since it has been pointed out that some humans do and that it seemed fine for them, but it didn't work out for others and brought on genetic problems, who is correct ?
> 
> i'm really talking about dogs even tho i brought up other animals and the "mother nature" aspect, and i realize there are exceptions
> 
> but i really don't know the answers, and was just trying to add perspective by mentioning other species which WEREN'T discussed in the gun dog article that heavily promoted linebreeding/inbreeding
> 
> i understand the basic goals of linebreeding and or inbreeding for limited generations, so it is starting to look that we humans can do it too, but that still doesn't answer my Q's ](*,)
> 
> except that inbreeding is great for artificially (man made) created species that serve a purpose, as long as it isn't done too long. would that be more accurate ?
> that inbreeding is ok in the short run ?
> 
> if so, seems like it might be a shortsighted goal for breeding, regardless of species


I read about groups of people that engaged in selective breeding of humans for certain work related traits. I don't recall inbreeding/linebreeding. Earlier in history as has been pointed out there was a linebreeding that occurred basically in some places based more on availability I think. Its still a religious/cultural issue in most societies. Personally, in looking at these issues, I wouldn't equate animals with humans. 

If you are out to set type, I don't think anything is breeding is "shortsighted." You will always be going out and coming back into your line and probably planning several generations ahead of time theoretically on paper. The hard part is finding something to go out to that doesn't bring anything negative back in that you will spend multiple generations getting rid of. 

T


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## Joby Becker

in many many types of wild animals, mainly social animals that stay in groups, (herds, packs there is a lot of inbreeding going on.

The same would go for dogs if they were left to their own devices, and stayed in the same locations as their relatives.

Dont forget that even with inbreeding/line breeding there still can be quite a diversity in genetics, each offspring gets 1/2 from each parent, which ones are expressed can be variable depending on the homozygosity of the results and how those are then bred to the next specimen. Of course outcrossings happen along the way as well.

In some animals, almost entire populations can be traced back to just a couple lines.


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## catherine hardigan

Zakia Days said:


> Inbreeding in human beings has had monstrous results. Ask the DuPonts how that worked out for them. I'm sure you googled that before you asked the question.


Or the Hapsburgs or Romanovs.


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## catherine hardigan

Jim Delbridge said:


> Inbreeding can easily accentuate poor genetics in the line as well as accentuate good genetic traits. Not only was the banjo player in the movie, Deliverence, suggested to be the result of inbreeding, but over the millenia many royalty have been the result of inbreeding. With royalty, they got trapped into the idea that a royal could only wed another royal and many of the royalty were related early on.
> Soooo, inbreeding might produce a really good puppy, but statistically some on the other end of the genetic roll of the dice should produce. Many breeders that create a program of tight lines accomodate this by allowing the culls to die off. Humans are the only species that consider this uncivilized and immoral, so we have a much larger plethora of genetic defects. Both religions and politics utlize this as their bread and butter. I'll leave it at that.
> 
> Along the same vein, rarely will a litter produced by two canine superstars produce all superstars as well, yet we have many breeders that swear the entire litter is superb stock. This is why no matter how good the reputation of the breeder and his/her dogs, caveat emptor needs to be the rule for any potential puppy buyer.
> 
> regards,
> 
> jim delbridge


I take it that you're married to your aunt... or at least open to the idea.


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## Lindsay Janes

catherine hardigan said:


> Or the Hapsburgs or Romanovs.



Something interesting to read here.. about red hair in British royal family. 
http://sucheternaldelight.wordpress.com/2010/06/25/where-did-the-tudor-red-gold-hair-come-from/


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## Jim Delbridge

Actually, I'm of the opinion that while hobbiest dog breeders prove the possibility of evolution, they lose all the merits of it. Evolution is built upon successful mutations that survived better than the original species.
I find it satisfying that if we innerbreed all the "pure canine stock breeds" that fairly quickly the generations go back towards the asian wolf or dingo-like dog.
I'm married to an Acadian who is just shy of being a master genealogist. She researches my lines when hers grow cold. The bulk of my generations were miners that climbed out of the ground from Cornwall and Ireland. Her ancestory is mostly french and german. Now that east germany is opened back up, we recently visited to get more records to follow her lines further back.

Just because I know of inbreeding shouldn't imply that I practice it. In fact, I find it unfair to the canine stock, but canines are considered pretty much like furniture. My working dogs would never pass muster in conformation and I routinely upset breeders when I tell them that I don't care what my dogs look like as long as they are healthy, have the right working personality, and have that essential good nose. As I'm considering Texas Heelers, images of the offspring should prove my point quite well.

Regards,

Jim Delbridge


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## Connie Sutherland

Daryl Ehret said:


> In response to Kadi's thread, which is over 57 days old, and unable to append my comment....
> 
> I've discussed the "theory" of inbreeding exhaustively for several years, and don't care to get into that, but would state that I'm not at all adverse to the usefulness of it's practice. My latest litter, "U" von Ehret was born 9 and a half months back, as the result of a father/daughter breeding. http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=1975065-ulrica-von-ehret
> 
> Every breeding is a case by case experiment, regardless of inbreeding or not, so not much I would want to generalize on the topic when specifics can bear profound consequence. In my breeding, the daughter was already herself linebred on Nick and Yoschy, further compounding those genes in her breeding back to her sire. Not a bad specimen in the batch, and I would ABSOLUTELY repeat this breeding without hesitation. The link I provided is of the female I have kept for further development of my personal bloodlines.


(To post to an old thread, click on the "I realize this is an old thread, yaday yada,, and want to post anyway" checkbox. It will come up below your new post box, before it lets you click on "submit post.")


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## Kadi Thingvall

Well my little hillbilly inbred  pup was born yesterday. Singleton, but that's not a huge surprise. Kita has an old cruciate injury and it turns out standing for a male that's 20 lbs heavier than her is more than her leg could take, she'd stand for 15-20 seconds then sit or lay down, still flagging away but not wanting to support his weight. So I did side by side AI's.

Anyway, other than being a singleton with good pigment and cute there isn't much to tell about him right now except he is small. We'll see how he does size wise as he grows up, I've had little pups from Mac turn out to be big adults, and I've had moose pups turn out to be average sized adults so it doesn't mean a lot right now.

I'll keep people posted on his development just for the sake of information, I'm planning to keep him 

Introducing Going Solo du Dantero


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## Daryl Ehret

Thanks Connie, I'll try to remember that for next time.

Adverse effects that are supposedly considered to be associated with inbreeding include diminished size and litter number. My U-litter consists of eight siblings. While one owner of a female is unhappy with her size, the mother of the litter was rather small anyway, more like ACD size. The pup's smaller stature hadn't prevented the six month old from easily jumping the 6-foot kennel. My own female has actually exceeded her mother's size during the last couple months, and has not at all affected her equally exuberant energy. Another female locally owned is sufficiently sized, and already working cattle on a daily basis for months now.


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## Annamarie Somich

I purposefully did a brother/sister breeding after unfortunately losing their father to bloat and his son that favored him the most in a bad co-ownership. Both siblings are most excellent dogs - the male Bruno is a mixture of their parents and the female Abby really favors their father.

I had a small litter of 5 with one female born blind. All four pups are doing extremely well. No small pups here. They are all mixtures of looks and temperaments from their parents, grandparents and a few traits from their great grandparents. Their temperaments do not necessarily follow their particular set of looks per se, but they are very consistent as far as abilities = prey retrieve, hunt drive, prey drive, and bite so far. 

I am keeping the females. The males are going to LE positions where I can go back and breed to them, or I may collect them before. Hopefully, I will be able to breed off of these guys and get some predictable litters since my plan is to focus on LE.

Change of subject - I want to publically thank Kadi for all of her help and support in my breeding startup adventure. She is a wealth of information and willingly shares her passion with others. Thanks Kadi!


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## Kadi Thingvall

Annamarie Somich said:


> Change of subject - I want to publically thank Kadi for all of her help and support in my breeding startup adventure. She is a wealth of information and willingly shares her passion with others. Thanks Kadi!


You are welcome.

Another update on my little Hillbilly pup LOL He just turned 5 weeks old and is doing great. Typical Malinois pup, if he's not hanging off my ankle he's trying to hump my foot, or his favorite hang off my ankle while humping my foot. He's a confident little sucker, and I've having a ton of fun with only 1, WAY easier to walk around when there is only 1 little gator mouth to keep occupied. Easier to house break also. One thing I didn't think about when I did this breeding is how vocal his dad/grandad is, and that he does reproduce it in some of his kids ](*,) Solo isn't bad, but he definitely likes to talk :-$ I wanted a "little Mac", sounds like I might have gotten one LOL

I'll be getting some photos and videos over the next few days and post them.


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## Joby Becker

Kadi Thingvall said:


> You are welcome.
> 
> Another update on my little Hillbilly pup LOL He just turned 5 weeks old and is doing great. Typical Malinois pup, if he's not hanging off my ankle he's trying to hump my foot, or his favorite hang off my ankle while humping my foot. He's a confident little sucker, and I've having a ton of fun with only 1, WAY easier to walk around when there is only 1 little gator mouth to keep occupied. Easier to house break also. One thing I didn't think about when I did this breeding is how vocal his dad/grandad is, and that he does reproduce it in some of his kids ](*,) Solo isn't bad, but he definitely likes to talk :-$ I wanted a "little Mac", sounds like I might have gotten one LOL
> 
> I'll be getting some photos and videos over the next few days and post them.


cool thanks for the update


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## Bob Scott

Kadi, have you seen any negatives in a singleton pup? 
I've always been curious about that since I believe a pup learns a lot from it's littermates. Then again, mom can spend a lot more time with that single pup.
:-k maybe I just answered my own question. :grin:


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## Kadi Thingvall

Bob Scott said:


> Kadi, have you seen any negatives in a singleton pup?
> I've always been curious about that since I believe a pup learns a lot from it's littermates. Then again, mom can spend a lot more time with that single pup.
> :-k maybe I just answered my own question. :grin:


I've only had one other singleton, and I was able to partially raise her with a litter that was 2-3 weeks older. She was a small pup for her age, and they were average to large, so she wasn't able to stay with them all the time but she did get a lot of time interacting with them. The biggest thing I notice about her was that she had a real temper, she did not like to be restrained or basically told what to do. I think that was partly just her, but it was also partly because even when playing with the other pups she really had to stand up for herself so she was use to fighting to get what she wanted.

This was Wicked at 9 weeks, I was pushing her buttons but I made this so the person I was sending her to would know what they were getting into LOL

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=1429639272477&set=vb.1577720278&type=3&theater

I've noticed this pup doesn't like to be restrained either, but he doesn't get nasty about it, just wants to struggle. We're working on it, he'll get used to it. I'm betting it has something to do with not having littermates around laying on each other, wrestling, etc. Although his mom spends a lot of time playing with him.


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## Joby Becker

Kadi Thingvall said:


> I've only had one other singleton, and I was able to partially raise her with a litter that was 2-3 weeks older. She was a small pup for her age, and they were average to large, so she wasn't able to stay with them all the time but she did get a lot of time interacting with them. The biggest thing I notice about her was that she had a real temper, she did not like to be restrained or basically told what to do. I think that was partly just her, but it was also partly because even when playing with the other pups she really had to stand up for herself so she was use to fighting to get what she wanted.
> 
> This was Wicked at 9 weeks, I was pushing her buttons but I made this so the person I was sending her to would know what they were getting into LOL
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=1429639272477&set=vb.1577720278&type=3&theater
> 
> I've noticed this pup doesn't like to be restrained either, but he doesn't get nasty about it, just wants to struggle. We're working on it, he'll get used to it. I'm betting it has something to do with not having littermates around laying on each other, wrestling, etc. Although his mom spends a lot of time playing with him.


cute pup, thanks for sharing..


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## Bob Scott

Kadi Thingvall said:


> I've only had one other singleton, and I was able to partially raise her with a litter that was 2-3 weeks older. She was a small pup for her age, and they were average to large, so she wasn't able to stay with them all the time but she did get a lot of time interacting with them. The biggest thing I notice about her was that she had a real temper, she did not like to be restrained or basically told what to do. I think that was partly just her, but it was also partly because even when playing with the other pups she really had to stand up for herself so she was use to fighting to get what she wanted.
> 
> This was Wicked at 9 weeks, I was pushing her buttons but I made this so the person I was sending her to would know what they were getting into LOL
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=1429639272477&set=vb.1577720278&type=3&theater
> 
> I've noticed this pup doesn't like to be restrained either, but he doesn't get nasty about it, just wants to struggle. We're working on it, he'll get used to it. I'm betting it has something to do with not having littermates around laying on each other, wrestling, etc. Although his mom spends a lot of time playing with him.



That could possibly even go back to the womb. The pup was spoiled with all that room. :grin: :wink:
I tube fed a Border t x JRT because she was to small to compete with two very large brothers. 
I would have put her down but my younger daughter saw and wanted her. That little gal was batshit crazy and the only dog she would have anything to do with was her JRT sire. He also didn't have much to do with any other dog but her. Go figure!


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## Kadi Thingvall

Another update on Solo, also affectionately called "Hillbilly". He is 3.5 months old now and so far he is exactly what I was looking for/expecting in terms of drives, grips, temperament, etc. IE he is his father's son. It does look like he'll be on the smaller/average side of things. His mom is 62 lbs, his dad is 85, and I'm betting he'll be a 65 pound adult. He's a very normal sized pup, not a big one by any stretch. Which is fine, I actually am not into the 85 pounders, I prefer 65-75. I do think being inbred effected him size wise though.


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