# advice on purchasing ppd



## tony panossian

i posted the below under another thread sorry:???: 

hello all, this is my first forum of any kind so be patient








i have owned dogs all of my life, currently i own a German Shepherd he is 10 years old, 
he is the son of Enzo who was on the USA world Schuthund team, this didn't mean much to me at the time
i purchased Kahil (my dog), however raising Kahil has also raised some concerns....
he is a very well behaved dog, with incredible drive, trained in obedience and has done some bite work 
a couple of times (long story), but he loved it! his eyes light up...
back to the concern part, i have had strangers walk into my house and kahil will greet all...
he loves everyone







that is great because i never worried when i took him everywhere with me, parks, shopping.... but it concerns me that he is friendly with people he shouldn't be with. 
on several occasions he will play fetch over the fence with strangers walking by the house lol.

i am currently living in new orleans where the crime rate is exponential.
i started looking for a PPD, now i'm more confused then ever, 
when i thought i knew a lot about dogs and training, the more i read the more i realized how little i know.
do i get a puppy or an adult?
i was so close to buying a dog from a company when a friend of my called the day of purchase and warned me about all the lawsuits currently pending against them, and when confronted none of my phone calls were ever returned.
do i have to pay 30K for a dog to get a sound ppd? i'm worried that if i try and save $$ i will endanger myself of family....
i want a dog just like Kahil loves kids loves people, however i want the dog to protect me and my family if need be.
sorry about the long post i just wanted to give you all a little background 
and thanks for any reply







    
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## Kevin Powell

Tony, you've got just as much chance of getting a shitter by spending $30K as you do spending $3k. I would have to see the dog. BUT, I can tell you this without seeing him...No matter what amount that you spend on your dog if the trainer tells you that he "loves kids, loves people"~He's a shitter as far as serious protection dogs are concerned. You can possibly find a good dog that acts aloof around people and tolerates them but then I would have serious reservations as to whether a dog that loves kids and people will perform if needed. Sounds like you would be better off with a large sable GSD with a deep bark and a gun.


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## Jerry Lyda

Kevin, this is not always the case. I think you are stereotyping, and I don't disagree with you on some dogs. This is not true in all cases.

You are right about the money and the dogs though.

Tony since you are in N.O. you may want to talk to Kim Guidry, she is on this forum and she may have something for you.


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## Kevin Powell

Jerry, It sounds like Tony wants a dog to act like his dog Kahil but then turn into an top notch PPD on command. I wouldn't spend $30k, $3k, or $.03 on a PPD that plays fetch over the fence with strangers and then entrust my life to it the next moment. Would you? I'm not saying that a dog has to want to eat every strange person that it enteracts with. I understand that it needs to be have a stable temperment. I just think that if I was going to spends thousands of dollars on a dog for the specific purpose of crime deterrent and protection I would want one that is aloof and neutral to strangers. Anything else sounds like an oxymoron to me.


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## Jerry Lyda

I'm not disagreeing with the money issue or the fence game. What I'm saying is that well balanced PPD dogs are out there. Finding them is what's hard. If I didn't have time to shop I would rather have the PPD that you discribed vs the fence play dog. You are right about that. If the time was not an issue I would try to find the balanced dog.


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## James Larkey

tony panossian said:


> do i have to pay 30K for a dog to get a sound ppd? i'm worried that if i try and save $$ i will endanger myself of family....
> i want a dog just like Kahil loves kids loves people, however i want the dog to protect me and my family if need be.


If you are purchasing a trained personal protection dog with the correct temperament, you should pay around 8,000.00 on the low end and up to around 16,000.00 on the high end. It depends on the quality of the dog and the level of training. This should include handler training and some follow up maintenance training at their facility, also. 

Jerry is absolutely right. REAL protection dogs are a rare commodity and hard to find. 

Based on what you described, I would recommend a good criminal deterrent. A social family dog with a serious sounding bark on command that may also be conditioned to suspicious behavior. Criminals are looking for easy targets and a barking dog will ward off most confrontations. Your dog should not be your only line of defense either. If crime is a serious threat in your area, you and your wife should consider self defense classes and instruction in the use of a firearm.


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## Howard Gaines III

tony panossian said:


> ...i want a dog just like Kahil loves kids loves people, however i want the dog to protect me and my family if need be.
> sorry about the long post i just wanted to give you all a little background
> and thanks for any reply


Tony you want a PPD but a family dog...Would you also support the idea of allowing a loaded handgun to sit on the coffee table for all to see and handle? I see the dog as a tool. A guard dog will let you know something is wrong and give you some time, maybe. A PPD in my book isn't the type of thing to let romp around with the kids and neighbors. What happens if it goes off? [-X


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## Chris Michalek

there is a guy that came out to our group last night for the first time. He doesn't have a dog and hasn't had one for 14 years. He said he put a schH3 on the dog and then got into Personal Protection. He thought his GSD was completely stable and social with kids, he also knew it was a very hard dog. 14 years ago the dog crawled over his fence and attack a 9 year old girl. He doesn't know why but they know the girl was grabbed by the face and dragged to some bushes and was nearly killed. 

After 14 years he says last night was the first night he felt comfortable enough to come watch some dogs work and he finally feels he ready for another dog. I don't know this guy other than his first name, but I can tell he's a good guy and he went through a painful experience. He was asking members if they had had pups or knew of some good working pups. What happened to him damaged him and he's still leary about having a dog that is trained to bite yet he wants a working class dog because he enjoys tracking and high level OB. I feel for this guy and he could be me or you or anybody else on this board.


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## Chad Byerly

Wow, Chris. What a nightmare. That would be hard to shake. I might steer away from dogs with good aggression or away from dogs altogether. That would really haunt me. It's one thing to read Fatal Dog Attacks and shake my head at the number of tragedies from animal/child neglect and abuse. But what he described as predation in a healthy, active working dog... that's really scarey and hits home about how serious it is that we have our dogs secured. I worry about my dicey Rottie, but I control his life and keep him happy and everything safe. But I'm picturing my future "better" dog, and the reality a bit too close to home of dogs ultimately being predators, just below the surface. 

http://www.dogwise.com/ItemDetails.cfm?ID=DTB888

http://www.fataldogattacks.com/

http://www.dogwise.com/itemdetails.cfm?ID=DTB859


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## Howard Gaines III

Chris very nice post. This is the thing I and others are talking about. Lots of folks want hard, until hard comes back to get them... As a hunter ed instructor, firearms safety is something you can't preach enough on, and PPDs are the same thing.

Jerry you also said volumes if anyone bothered to read between the lines. Dogs that are great family and great PP are hard to find. Training and genetics are close cousins in the making of that kind of tool! If my nephews were eaten by my dog I would be in a world of mental pain!!!!!!!!!


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## Michael Santana

I have to agree with Jerry on this one. Well balanced dogs are out there, just hard to find. My Fiance's dog is her PPD. Ruger is great with the kids, we can bring friends over, and although aloof, he's fine with them as long as we are present. Ruger took time to warm up to me and do anything for me, as expected. We would never leave Ruger unsupervised without one of us present, although he can go to the BBQ he's not the one to play fetch with the neighbors. 
On the other hand, I am bringing my mal Orion up to be more of a PSD. He is extremely social and very friendly, to go anywhere with anyone and loves people. Yet his bite work is incrediable and once turned on he is committed to working 100% (both in detection and apprehension).
With this said, I have no doubt that when needed both these dogs will perform. Each in their respective role. 

Unless you're a hermit or can handle the liability, I think a PPD that isn't social to some extent, is less effective, and a huge risk.


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## Lee H Sternberg

Great post, Chris. Along with liability there is guilt if anything bad happens.

My dogs have ecollars on anytime they aren't secured in the fenced rear yard. I watch the female like a hawk. Even with a ecollar, I am careful that it doesn't give me a false sense of security. 

It only takes a second if the dog is determined.


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## Jerry Lyda

Lee, you hit the nail dead middle. Any PPD social or not, they have to be watched very closely. Being responcible is the KEY. 
Thanks Lee.


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## Lee H Sternberg

You know, Jerry, I learned my lesson years ago in Costa Rica. I had a wonderful Rott who I took with me when I was living there. 

One of my wife's cousins came visiting and slapped me on the back when he greeted me.

The Rott knew him but completely "lost it" when he hit me. I was quick enough to put myself between them and prevent a very ugly situation.

This was a very calm dog under normal circumstances. He had no nerve issues. 

He just wanted to protect his master.


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## tony panossian

thank you all for the replies,
that makes a lot more sense to me, then all the hot air the sellers were telling me....
i was exaggerating when i said i want a dog like kahil that will also act as a ppd when needed, that was a stupid statement, 
but i do like the idea of having a dog that is not as friendly to strangers but tolerates people to some extent, but will put me at ease if my family is at home alone.
jerry i will try and contact kim through the forum (not sure how but i 'll figure it out ), 

and chris my biggest fear is what that guy went thru, having my dog harm a child or an innocent person.


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## tony panossian

Howard Gaines III said:


> Tony you want a PPD but a family dog...Would you also support the idea of allowing a loaded handgun to sit on the coffee table for all to see and handle? I see the dog as a tool. A guard dog will let you know something is wrong and give you some time, maybe. A PPD in my book isn't the type of thing to let romp around with the kids and neighbors. What happens if it goes off? [-X


howard i agree with you, i currently own a gun but it makes me uneasy for many reasons...
i was hoping by getting a ppd i would not need it... i understand that might not be the case.
do you think a ppd is dangerous to have and raise with your own kids?


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## David Scholes

tony panossian said:


> howard i agree with you, i currently own a gun but it makes me uneasy for many reasons...
> i was hoping by getting a ppd i would not need it... i understand that might not be the case.
> do you think a ppd is dangerous to have and raise with your own kids?


If you need the dog... you also need the gun. It's easy to train the average child to stay away from guns just go shooting some milk jugs with smiley faces.. explode them and explain that's what happens when someone get's shot. Educate the family. Hide the guns and keep them a mystery and you will eventually have a problem.

A large barking dogs will deter most felons but not the really bad ones. Some may just look at it as a fun challenge to wack the dog with a bat or machete or poison or shoot. If someone is willing to go through a barking dog, all the more reason you better be ready to shoot. The dog will deter, warn and may slow down but not fully protect.


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## Michael Santana

I have a small safe that has 4 buttons on top, hit them in a certain order and the spring loaded door opens. It's made by winchester, and it's not very expensive. Another feature it has, which I like very much, is that if you "mess up" the combination too many times it locks up. At this point you can only use the key to open it. 

In addition to being safe (always the most important). I feel that you should really concentrate on being proficient, and comfortable with your weapon. It dosen't do you much good if you can't hit the side of a barn with it. A couple of other things to take into mind is where the round lands. using a regular round you have to consider it going through the target, the wall behind them, and whatever else is in its path. I keep a magazine with hollow points. Some may consider them brutal, but I rather the round fragment in the target, rather then possibly continue and hit an innocent bystander


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## Gerry Grimwood

Most people I've met that have "protection" dogs tend to act like a punk with a weapon of some sort hidden in a pocket. It's a false sense of security at best.


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## Lee H Sternberg

Gerry Grimwood said:


> Most people I've met that have "protection" dogs tend to act like a punk with a weapon of some sort hidden in a pocket. It's a false sense of security at best.


Most of them have crap dogs as well. Usually it's all "flashy" BS.


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## David Frost

I admit I don't know that much about PPD dogs, but wouldn't the same behaviors, nerve etc needed for a PSD be equal to what is necessary for PPD?

DFrost


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## Jerry Lyda

You are right David.


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## jay lyda

Its all the same David. But funny enough most PPD trainers feel the need to put the dog into nothing but defense. To me, this is not a PPD but rather a time bomb just waiting to explode.


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## Howard Gaines III

David other than narcotics detection training, I thinking they are very similar. Both get the same equipment to chew on, sometimes both have poor decoys working them, both sometimes have poor handlers working with them, and egos can be found anywhere if you look for them! 

I think some of the real differences is in the police working dogs. Many agencies buy in bulk and through a K-9 broker EU or States. "Joe Six-Pack" buys from folks who say they are breeding working lines. And many would be owners wouldn't know a working lines pedigree from a candy bar. "Oh, I saw both parents and they were real mean." I have heard that statement so many times...So then you own a mean dog and not one which is clear headed, can't train with me!

Then you get the "Rockwilder" owners...AKA Rottweilers :mrgreen: Unless they are from nice working lines, they are junk. The same can be said about many American bred German Shepherds, and other popular breeds. There aren't enough Bouvier, Giant Schnauzer, Black Russian Terriers or other of breeds to comment on. 

I see the Malinois as being a breed that will be bred for the wasteland. Much like the GSD, it will be bred by backyard know-it-alls and you will see lots of screw loose Mals in the SPCA some day. Nope, own a nagging wife and nobody will come around, same with bratty kids!#-o


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## tony panossian

any thoughts about purchasing a ppd from Wayne Simanovich?
first hand or second hand experience with his kennels?
love to hear peoples thoughts on the matter.
Jerry thank you for letting me know about kim, i was able to get in touch with her and she is eager to help.


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## Anne Vaini

"World's finest trained dogs" ??!!

How many sites make this claim? :lol:


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## Connie Sutherland

Anne Vaini said:


> "World's finest trained dogs" ??!!
> 
> How many sites make this claim? :lol:


All of 'em!


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## ann schnerre

or my personal favorite: "all of our pups are suitable for everything from family companion to sport to PSD to SAR to herding, and everything in between". gotta love a breeder that can do THAT


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## carey harkness

Tony,
I hunted around for a PPD for a couple of years. Needless to say it was a frustrating search. As far as prices go the sky is the limit. I know of a GSD trainer that starts with a titled dog (euro import), then "street trains" them. Price is around 10.5K, which to me is a fair price. I'll get his contact info for you from my trainer.


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## Michelle Reusser

I opted to go the puppy route and I'm happy I did. I can't seem to wrap my head around paying so much $ for a dog trained by some dude I don't know or trust.


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## Mike Scheiber

I am surprised Wayne Simanovich is in ppd business he is a national and international competitor in Schutzhund also is or was president of the USRC Though he handles all breeds.


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## Jerry Lyda

You might say that Wayne was,( never mind.)


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## Greg Leavitt

I have a good friend who paid 300 dollars for a male shepherd pup out of chech lines with no papers who at just over 2 years is social enough and will bite anyone anytime for real. He can be in the house with the man and his wife but heaven forbide if you were to kick in the door to try and rob them. I think when owning a high level ppd its equally as important to know how to handle the dog and see them work and understand it, but for that you need someone who really knows what they are doing to work your dog. jmho Greg


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## Jerry Lyda

What gets me is people who want a PPD and think that they will stay trained forever. They all need to stay up on their training. These folks don't want to, or say they don't have time to do it. They have to put the time in and if not they don't need one. Not from me anyway.


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## donald owsley

had one of waynes rotts out of caine manor. Was a female and was super smart. Was a good natured female but was too soft in temperament for me. She tragically hung herself on a fence while climbing the fence. I was sick!


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## Jerry Lyda

Sorry to hear that Donald.


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## Emilio Rodriguez

Sorry to hear that. It's a strong reminder to take the collar off when leaving the dog in a kennel.

Tony, you should be able to get as much or as little protection from a dog that you need. It's a matter of educating yourself and spending some dough which is much more difficult and time consuming than buying a firearm. It's possible to have a protection dog that is also a social dog but it's harder to find. I have one but I wouldn't sell it for $20,000 right now because it was difficult for me to find. However now that I have it I will attempt to preserve the bloodline so maybe more good dogs will become available. I think that what you need to do first is define what behaviors you expect from this dog in different situations. Talk to people here that can set you straight on realistic and non realistic expectations. Then talk to a few professionals who have dogs for sale. My advice to you is to never buy a dog without seeing it. When you do go to see it try to do it so the dog is performing in as close a situation as what you'd expect of it when he'll be living with you. Chances are that if you think you wouldn't want to go through the dog then it will be a good deterrent. Whether it has the fortitude to fight a man needs to be demonstrated. I'm sure that for good money there are good dogs available. Police departments buy them all the time. Granted there are differences between PSD and dogs for home and personal protection, for example I particularly don't enjoy a high drive dog, but the foundation stock is there to choose from.


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## kristin tresidder

Jerry Lyda said:


> What gets me is people who want a PPD and think that they will stay trained forever. They all need to stay up on their training.


 
the funny thing is, most of the "PPD" salesman will tell you that their dogs ARE trained for life, with no need of refreshers. ever. for fun once, i called the phone number on one of those $30,000 black & red 100# GSD 'personal protection dog' websites and spoke with the guy, pretending to be almost completely new to dogs at all, let alone furry dogs. i specifically asked about where i would be able to take my dog (if i got one) for refresher training, since i *thought* there was a difference between SCHH and PP. he reassured me that his dogs would never need refresher training for obedience or protection work. i asked if they shipped dogs, and he reassured me that they did. when i asked if i would be able to take the dog out of the crate at the airport, he assured me that i would be able to. then i asked why i, a complete stranger to the dog would be able to take it out of the crate and have immediate, complete control at first sight, and if that were the case, why couldn't anyone come into my house/yard/car, tell spike to sit & stay, and then take everything and leave again? he waffled there.... LOL


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