# violent heading



## Annika Friberg (Mar 27, 2009)

We went out walking with the goats on the large pasture the other day (goats rather than sheep because we are trusted alone with the goats and not with the sheep) and I noticed something out there.

When we are walking toward the draw (with 7-8 goats), Ulfie will come up on one side - if it's the sheep, he pushes them away from me sideways in doing this but the goats have a smaller flightzone of course and he can get away with it. 

Anyway, he heads them back to me by coming up from the side in front and swiping violently at their feet. Sometimes he does push them sideways away from me and then he has to come around and ends up swirling them back to me, chomping on their hindlegs (and if it's the sheep, we'll loose them). Finally, he piles them on top of me so I can barely walk. I also don't love the force he uses - he makes them bleat in protest.

Is this really something that will sort itself out - will he find the balance with minimal direction - without me stepping in and positioning him? He seems quite pleased with using this amount of force and with piling them up on top of me in this way.

Remember, this is a no pressure situation with animals he knows well and has no problems controlling - only that he hasn't figured out the way to balance them with the draw in front and ends up overcompensating I guess?

On another note, we have our PT the weekend after this one - wish us luck .


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## Kellie Wolverton (Jan 16, 2009)

Annika Friberg said:


> We went out walking with the goats on the large pasture the other day (goats rather than sheep because we are trusted alone with the goats and not with the sheep) and I noticed something out there.
> 
> When we are walking toward the draw (with 7-8 goats), Ulfie will come up on one side - if it's the sheep, he pushes them away from me sideways in doing this but the goats have a smaller flightzone of course and he can get away with it.
> 
> ...



It sounds like, from what you have written, you are allowing your dog to abuse the stock. If he doesn't stay out on his own, you MUST keep him out. Allowing him to bite without cause is BAD. If those were my goats, I would put a stop to it.

It will not sort itself out.#-o You need to fix this ASAP. Make him give to your pressure and keep him off of the goats. 

Always protect your stock!


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## Adi Ibrahimbegovic (Nov 21, 2008)

You are allowing your dog to be a punk, that much is evident.

Make him do it the way you want it done because that behavior will not resolve itself and kind of stop one day, ask your trainer for assistance and how best to approach it.


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## Annika Friberg (Mar 27, 2009)

Kellie Wolverton said:


> It sounds like, from what you have written, you are allowing your dog to abuse the stock. If he doesn't stay out on his own, you MUST keep him out. Allowing him to bite without cause is BAD. If those were my goats, I would put a stop to it.
> 
> It will not sort itself out.#-o You need to fix this ASAP. Make him give to your pressure and keep him off of the goats.
> 
> Always protect your stock!


Well, I was referring to the conversations that we had a few months ago with Sara and Terrasita about the value of walking with the stock to teach the dog to balance them on its own, to read pressure in that situation, and thereby to relax and get confidence. And to learn that he doesn't have to head them or nip at them to hold them.

If he really was going to work out the balance independently and on both sides, I figured I would have to give him more leeway. But if he is taking advantage of that situation, does that mean that the exercise is not useful for us - and if I intervene, how to do it appropriately?

Anyway, this was about 15 minutes - we have been out walking with sheep and he has tried to do the same thing but they take off instantly and he gets a stop and can't go after them. So he has not been given a chance to carry it out "his way" in the past even though he tried occasionally.

So no worries - I am not abusing the goats on a weekly basis. I am just trying to find a balance between giving him a chance to find the way to do it, and telling him what to do. 

PS. when we move away from the draw, he falls back and gives them space, and in turns he keeps out unless there is some extra movement in which case he might come in and nip. This is again out in the open area.


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## Annika Friberg (Mar 27, 2009)

Adi Ibrahimbegovic said:


> You are allowing your dog to be a punk, that much is evident.
> 
> Make him do it the way you want it done because that behavior will not resolve itself and kind of stop one day, ask your trainer for assistance and how best to approach it.


He IS a punk - I am generally not allowing him to be a punk, no, except in this situation for the reasons mentioned above. It's tricky though. In terms of corrections, there is a very fine line with him between a correction he'll actually respect and one that will make him shut down and stop working. I still have a ways to go with finding that balance, and with timing, not to mention reading my stock properly so I CAN tell him what I want.

We rarely work without my trainer - but she recommends placing him and stopping him up, and walkabouts with minimal direction was something we had talked about on WDF in the past. My trainer also generally work larger dogs, not many vallhunds and corgis. So I'm looking for some extra input.


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## Mara Jessup (Sep 7, 2010)

Annika Friberg said:


> If he really was going to work out the balance independently and on both sides, I figured I would have to give him more leeway. But if he is taking advantage of that situation, does that mean that the exercise is not useful for us - and if I intervene, how to do it appropriately?
> 
> Anyway, this was about 15 minutes - we have been out walking with sheep and he has tried to do the same thing but they take off instantly and he gets a stop and can't go after them. So he has not been given a chance to carry it out "his way" in the past even though he tried occasionally.
> 
> So no worries - I am not abusing the goats on a weekly basis. I am just trying to find a balance between giving him a chance to find the way to do it, and telling him what to do.


 The exercise is not useful if he is attacking the goats. I'm kind of guessing that he might be feeling pressure from the stock somehow and is reacting to that. And if he is reacting, he's not learning anything - there's no way for him just to figure it out. I'd use body pressure to tell him to widen out. If he's shutting down with a correction he might be feeling too much pressure from you or the stock (or a combination), in which case you ned to back up in your training and practice with a group of stock that he can work properly because right now all he is really learing is that he can't control the stock (the sheep run off and he attacks the goats)


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## Annika Friberg (Mar 27, 2009)

I wouldn't say that he is attacking the goats - I might have expressed it sloppily. He is coming in close, nipping and heading which is his natural tendency anyway (the breed's herding style) but doing it to the nth degree and causing discomfort to the stock - and then as they try to get away in the other direction, he comes around and nips (hard) on the other side until he has them closely packed around me.

The corrections comment wasn't directly related to this problem, just generally to Adi about my abilities in controlling my 2-year old headstrong dog and how to do it effectively in a herding context. But yes, we are working on not getting him into a situation where that happens (either the shut down or the taking over) - it's a learn as you go kind of process.

In this situation though - with goats and lots of space - he is comfortable with the stock - he doesn't generally loose them and he knows he can control them - and there is no fence pressure. 

If I use body pressure to get him to give more space, I have to change directions in walking, don't I (and walk towards him) which would mean that he didn't learn to find a balance point towards the draw? 

Or would you just take a step in that direction until he yielded outwards and then continue in the direction you were originally going?


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## Mara Jessup (Sep 7, 2010)

Annika Friberg said:


> I wouldn't say that he is attacking the goats - I might have expressed it sloppily. He is coming in close, nipping and heading which is his natural tendency anyway (the breed's herding style) but doing it to the nth degree and causing discomfort to the stock - and then as they try to get away in the other direction, he comes around and nips (hard) on the other side until he has them closely packed around me.
> 
> The corrections comment wasn't directly related to this problem, just generally to Adi about my abilities in controlling my 2-year old headstrong dog and how to do it effectively in a herding context. But yes, we are working on not getting him into a situation where that happens (either the shut down or the taking over) - it's a learn as you go kind of process.
> 
> ...


 A dog causing the stock undue discomfort is not acceptable regardless of style. If you feel that he is doing it because he can get away with it, then he needs correction. Depending on the dogs personality, I'd probably have a stock stick, step right into the dogs space and hit the ground in front of him with it. Kind of a "hey knock it off, give them a bit of space" sort of thing. So yeah basically the step in his direction until he yielded. depending on his personality you can decided if you want to use a stock stick or not.

Maybe you need to go back a few steps and work with a small herd of goats so you can focus on teaching him to give them a bit more space and work a bit more respectful with them. 

But if you've working with a good trainer, maybe have them come out and work him in the same situation and see how he acts/reacts to help you solve the issue.


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## Kellie Wolverton (Jan 16, 2009)

Annika Friberg said:


> If he really was going to work out the balance independently and on both sides, I figured I would have to give him more leeway. But if he is taking advantage of that situation, does that mean that the exercise is not useful for us - and if I intervene, how to do it appropriately?
> 
> Anyway, this was about 15 minutes - we have been out walking with sheep and he has tried to do the same thing but they take off instantly and he gets a stop and can't go after them. So he has not been given a chance to carry it out "his way" in the past even though he tried occasionally.
> 
> ...


There is no harm in "helping" him get it. I would definitely ask your trainer how he/she would best rectify the situation.

My dog covers the stock from the side heading towards the draw. Sometimes she may be a little in front (off to the side). But she is not permitted to push the stock over me for any reason. I do pressure her to back off if the stock are uncomfortable. I use a stock stick and body pressure. She is a very strong hard headed independent dog with a lot of presence.

Sometimes I really feel the dog is looking for guidance/rules/support and if you are not there to provide that, it leads to bigger insecurities. It is all timing and reading your dog and those 2 things are difficult enough without the added bonus of stock


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Annika,

I don't ever allow a pattern of cheap shot grips. He's past where I would allow unnecessary push. I must also be getting old because stock piling on top of me or worse cows run at me and god will come down from the heavens. I'm really paranoid about stampedes. This is another reason I'm starting to do a lot of the foundation work with ducks. Goats bleating indicates alot of unneccesary and unjustified force. I would correct for that. He's not comfortable with push or applying pressure to make the goats do something counter to what they are doing so he goes in with all he has. As I've said before he's not comfortable in the pressure or in the pocket. I'd probably work with him on a line where he is in control in the pocket [stock can't run off] and maintaining them going a certain direction. I never let the dog or the stock control the direction I'm going. If I step in to push the dog off, I will continue the same direction I was going. You could mechanic him around the field and get by with drop and drift I guess but until you address his confidence, you are going to have a big hole. I work with a dog where they can walk straight up to the nose and apply pressure [mental/eye] not body [speed, bark, bite] and it doesn't matter what breed it is. The less eye the dog has, the longer this type of work can take but I want calm controlled push. Right now, I work two corgis, a bouv and a BC and I'm asking the same out of all of them. With the latest corgi which is not as reactive as a Valhund or a pembroke, I still asked very early--no rushing into stock. Your Valhund is very much like an ACD and with that same dashing in chewing at the heels of stock---stop this now. Its also the same inability to take human pressure--i.e. shut down. The driving on the line in the pocket [keep the stock moving forward yet controlling so they cant' escape] can help instill his confidence, distance, rate. Next add 180 degree flanks. This is a dog that I would put a lift in first. Forget even circling around for awhile. For as long as he thinks he needs to dash in with all his body tools to make motion, its going to fall apart. You have to show him a new tool [eye, mental pressure] and to do so you have to get him off some distance. And again, I wouldn't trial him until I got this done. He needs to learn to calmly come onto his stock without fear of his life being at stake. He wants to shut down the escape but he he has to go to head to stop motion and deal with a confrontation that he's not comfy he can win. 

I don't believe in stopping the dog and letting his stock escape as punishment. I HATE with a passion people who pick at the dogs for a down in a trial and allow stock a full field retreat down field. I'll be doing my first judging in a few weeks and in thinking what to tell handlers in a handlers meeting this is my pet peeve. If you are losing sheep with Ulfie at this point, they are just too light and the field too big for his training level. You don't teach him anything by allowing his stock to escape. You can STOP a behavior with punishment/correction. I don't believe you establish behaviors with it. To establish a behavior in herding, you have to control all the variables----right stock mentality, field size and tools to keep the dog right whether you have taught him to move off body or rake/stock stick pressure or you use a line to keep him at a correct distance yet in control. 

To me breed nuances and style come into play in terms of the order of behaviors to establish. But I guess ultimately, I'm looking for the same type of work and approach. My bouv has LOTS of analysis, eye, rate. My corgi in comparison had slim to none of those qualities. I have worked her to now she is controlling her line, using some eye and rating--especially on the drive. It was3 1/2 seasons of training to get this. The BC has the most grip--full and hard. I consider this poetic justice. Hubby couldn't just happen to find one of those stylish biddble ones. But I've let him know, I will not tolerate cheap shots and drive bys. A grip to the nose with stock fighting---sure, good dog. A nip at the heel because, stock is refusing to move--sure. Frantic ra ra push---no, not allowed. There are "rules of engagement" no matter what I'm doing. Even with walkabouts, there are rules. I'm constantly moving and changing directions. I might walk into the draw a few feet and then turn and go another way. Turns are random. To do Ulfie justice, here's where a video with the goats might be handy.

And again, thinking of my own dogs, I generally don't trial them until they can work a good started course in AKC, AHBA Ranch and ASCA and they are 3 years old---beginning of maturity and confidence. Two year old dogs are the least confident and least able to deal with pressure---handler and stock, generally. As a handler, you have to learn to work with pressure on and pressure off. Get him off and release the pressure from you and the stock. 

Terrasita


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## Kellie Wolverton (Jan 16, 2009)

Annika,

The have been a few times that I have seen a wire basket muzzle used on dogs. Usually this is used on dogs that lack confidence and feel the only way that they are able to move the stock is with a bite or nip. Using the muzzle, they get the confidence to move the stock and the stock are protected at the same time.

The muzzle does not mean that your dog is "dangerous". It is only a tool to help the dog realize its potential.

I would ask your trainer about it.

Good luck in your PT:smile:


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

I actually thought about a muzzle with Ricky Bobby but never did it. I think they are good for the handler. A lot of times the dog is gripping more because of a tense handler than maybe issues with the stock. If the handler knows they can't hurt anything, they can relax more. I ended up putting Ricky Bobby on a line and doing some driving. That relaxed him. I think coming into my pressure caused him to grip. I think I would do some driving with the dog controlling the stock in a big enough pen with sheep that don't run or the goats. Use a 30-50 foot line so you can drop behind the dog and just guide him with the line and do miles and miles of driving the stock even along a fence line but again with the dog controlling. You can keep him right with the line yet not pressure him and be in front of him. He's controlling the stock. Once he has this, add 180 degree flanks with a there and walk up. The line will help you establish a new speed. I used clicker/marker training to put a trot and then walk in my corgis. This all gets a little complex and hard to explain in writing.

Now the corgi nuance. I try not to take away their tools---speed, bark, bite but show them when and where they can use them. They do not believe they can control stock at lesser speeds, you have to show them that they can and how to use distance. Beware of when you are stopping and placing him whether he is really working or just going where you tell him to go. I'd be reluctant to muzzle him where he thinks he is defenseless. For the others this is very hard to explain. I don't think certain herding dogs are as domesticated as others. What we talk about in terms of confidence is in its base terms a fear component. The fear can almost reach a feral type level so you have to be careful with this. I have tested two dogs and ran into this--one an ACD and the other a Valhund--the similarities are amazing. 

So I go back to a Bob Vest principle. Before you start putting all the controls in the dog, the dog must be able to control his livestock and be confident in that ability. Ulfie is young and I can think of only one dog I've worked with in the last 14 years that came into his confidence before age 3. It starts at age three and gels at age 5. If there is a stock confidence issue, you work with that and add the control placement work as the dog gains his confidences. I don't even train out work anymore until the dog and calmly walk up and push stock---lift. 

Terrasita


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## Annika Friberg (Mar 27, 2009)

Thanks for the input everyone. We were out on Saturday again and I think we have sorted out some of the "cheap shots" and piling stuff. He worked the goats in the HT pattern and it went well. Then we worked a heavy set of sheep on the larger area, and again, he did well and heeded me and didn't loose them (but a lot of barking going on so he is still fighting me/not completely comfortable).

The PT is with "his" goats and he is comfortable with the pattern and the space both with goats and with sheep so I think we'll be ok. I will certainly be careful of entering into Started A until we have sorted out the confidence/pressure issues! Right now, he has tried and worked the course well but occasionally has the issue with the forward draw in the end of the course and, of course, the outrun. 

I would be hesitant with the muzzle - I am not that worried that he'll hurt the goats seriously. I might underestimate him but with his size, I think he's more of a bloody nuisance than a real danger to them. I know from experience from when he was younger that being nipped hard in the shins and heels is NOT a pleasant experience - but it doesn't kill you. And my worry would be that the muzzle would add to his stress rather than decrease it.



> What we talk about in terms of confidence is in its base terms a fear component. The fear can almost reach a feral type level so you have to be careful with this. I have tested two dogs and ran into this--one an ACD and the other a Valhund--the similarities are amazing


Terrasita, could you explain a bit more what it was that you encountered with the vallhund? You said somewhere earlier that it's a shutdown in the face of too much pressure. I think I see that - I am just not sure I am thinking about the same response.

We did go back to working on a line recently - and I think we will do some more of that. 

I will try to get some more videos up in the near future.


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## Kellie Wolverton (Jan 16, 2009)

Annika Friberg said:


> I know from experience from when he was younger that being nipped hard in the shins and heels is NOT a pleasant experience - but it doesn't kill you. And my worry would be that the muzzle would add to his stress rather than decrease it.
> I will try to get some more videos up in the near future.


This attitude really does surprise me. It my not kill them, but they probably needed to be doctored. Lower leg wounds are very difficult to heel and keep clean. I guess that is the difference when you are the one paying the feed/vet bill and purchasing the animals, you worry about stuff like that.

The muzzle is only a negative if you make it one. I train all of my dogs to a muzzle. They learn it is no big deal...kind of like a collar or leash. 

My experience is limited to Beaucerons, ACDs, Kelpies and the occasional BC. So I have no input for the short leggers...was just trying to give you a few ideas.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Annika Friberg said:


> Thanks for the input everyone. We were out on Saturday again and I think we have sorted out some of the "cheap shots" and piling stuff. He worked the goats in the HT pattern and it went well. Then we worked a heavy set of sheep on the larger area, and again, he did well and heeded me and didn't loose them (but a lot of barking going on so he is still fighting me/not completely comfortable).
> 
> The PT is with "his" goats and he is comfortable with the pattern and the space both with goats and with sheep so I think we'll be ok. I will certainly be careful of entering into Started A until we have sorted out the confidence/pressure issues! Right now, he has tried and worked the course well but occasionally has the issue with the forward draw in the end of the course and, of course, the outrun.
> 
> ...


Okay, the shut down that you see is usually because of handler pressure and the dog has no faith in the handler. Corgis/little dogs can be 0 or 10 and nothing in between. They think they control stock with speed, bark, bite. You want him to walk and stop. To them, that means don't work. Often this is confused with the dog wanting to do it his way. I disagree. Next, in nature, that which is taller, dominates. You have to be aware of the dog's relationship with his stock. You say walk or lie down. He says, "your're trying to get me killed. As you pressure him, he will will either put more pressure on the stock, bark at you in protest, or shut down. 

The trialist talks in terms of HT or PT or Started patterns. Fine as long as everyone is going along with the pattern or you have a degree of course training. But what if the stock are going toward the draw and he now has to 'make the stock" stop going in their desired direction. Its now a confrontation. Does he have the confidence to handle it with "quiet power" or is it going to be napoleonic bravado--go with the big guns and all you got. The most worried dog in the pressure will go with the big guns. The two dogs that freaked out, went into fear biter, chew your way out of it and that included me since I walked them towards the pressure. One I was walking to the sheep pen. I never made it there. The other I was walking toward the duck pen and had to pass some ducks to get there. I never made it there. All of their hackles raise along the body [make yourself bigger] and they are frantically barking and lunging and they then look at the human person with no recognition and they become part of it. This isn't Ulfie but I think of things along a continum. This is the reason, I don't work with placement and control issues until I've dealt with any confidence issues. With a lot of dogs you are going to work on the quiet power. Its just that some have more of an issue with it than others. Also, with the cattle type dogs there are some breed nuances in terms of how they are instinctively wired to affect livestock or make them move or control escape--hence heelers and using motion to make motion which keeps the pressure off the dog.

Terrasita


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## Annika Friberg (Mar 27, 2009)

> The two dogs that freaked out, went into fear biter, chew your way out of it and that included me since I walked them towards the pressure. One I was walking to the sheep pen. I never made it there. The other I was walking toward the duck pen and had to pass some ducks to get there. I never made it there. All of their hackles raise along the body [make yourself bigger] and they are frantically barking and lunging and they then look at the human person with no recognition and they become part of it. This isn't Ulfie but I think of things along a continum. This is the reason, I don't work with placement and control issues until I've dealt with any confidence issues. With a lot of dogs you are going to work on the quiet power. Its just that some have more of an issue with it than others. Also, with the cattle type dogs there are some breed nuances in terms of how they are instinctively wired to affect livestock or make them move or control escape--hence heelers and using motion to make motion which keeps the pressure off the dog.


No, I haven't seen quite as much of a reaction that though he has reacted with barking and lunging in small pens - he doesn't like going into them. What I see is a sudden and violent response when the pressure becomes too much - he pushes first, then shuts down and shakes. 

This has happened with the work in small pens - that's much better now - what made it better was allowing him to come through and around them off lead and on his own time, and also to fetch the sheep on lead from a slightly larger pen and figure out that they would move out of his way. Early on, we tried him on boundaries but someone hit the stock stick into the boundary (which is made out of some large pvc) and he refused to move from the spot after that or to get close to the boundary. So gradually figuring out what will cause it - too much pressure, but also loud noises - and to see when it's a stress issue. 

I am sure you are correct that often the times of ignoring directions (not sitting or lying down when asked, moving faster than we want, barking) has to do with pushing harder out of a sense of self-preservation. That's why I described the situation with the goats out in the open though - SOME of the time, I also believe that he is being a punk, and how I deal with the situation should depend on the reason behind his diving and biting, right? To remove pressure (or him) or to correct. 



> This attitude really does surprise me. It my not kill them, but they probably needed to be doctored. Lower leg wounds are very difficult to heel and keep clean. I guess that is the difference when you are the one paying the feed/vet bill and purchasing the animals, you worry about stuff like that.
> 
> The muzzle is only a negative if you make it one. I train all of my dogs to a muzzle. They learn it is no big deal...kind of like a collar or leash.
> 
> My experience is limited to Beaucerons, ACDs, Kelpies and the occasional BC. So I have no input for the short leggers...was just trying to give you a few ideas.


I'm sure that you are right about lower leg injuries...just don't have enough experience with goats. They were okay a few days later at any rate, and I didn't hear that they needed care. No punctures.

As for the muzzle, I am just hesitant that it would backfire when we are dealing with confidence and stress issues around fence pressure, human pressure, stock pressure, loud noises to add yet another factor and another limitation. 

He does move away from the stock stick so I can definitely use that to gain some space and that's what I did on Saturday when he tried to come in and nip unnecessarily. And apart from that, to give him enough space in turns and corners, and to shut my mouth as much as possible and remove MY pressure unless he comes in.

I would think - because they are heelers and from what Terrasita said - that ACDs have some similarities to a vallhund but I don't know anyone who herds with them so I can't compare. I do appreciate your input - we've been working for a year and I just like getting multiple perspectives on these specific issues. Timing, and reading the dog and reading the stock I figure I just have to learn by being out and working for someone who knows more than I do, but at the same time, it's good to get different ideas on how to work, at what speed and in what way.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Annika,

What you wrote in the above post gives a lot of insight into Ulfie. Its 99.9% self preservation. This is the dog's relationship to the stock that I was referring too. That packed pen is death trap. Its been used as a sorta desensitization thing but years ago I changed my small pen work so that the dog could move freely around the edge and even walk straight up and drive them. Its like I explained to someone, the dog can't handle the stock pressure so he pushes to make them move away from him but at the same time, he doesn't want them to get away--quite the conflict. One of the issues is with a breed that was bred for independence and working without so much handler input, you're sort of penalizing them and training against instinct. I wouldn't put him in situations where he thinks his life is at stake. I would work to teach and alternative behavior. I'm back to my long line. If I have you on that line, you can't dash in amongst heels and I'm helping establish the alternative behavior. I use marker training to have an unequivocal way of communicating to the dog he is right. I try to work more with telling them what right is instead of whats wrong, wrong wrong.


T


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## Twila Leierer (Jun 2, 2009)

I would stop the behavior immediately. Harrassing livestock will only cause you problems.


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## Annika Friberg (Mar 27, 2009)

Twila Leierer said:


> I would stop the behavior immediately. Harrassing livestock will only cause you problems.


It's stopped! We worked a simple pattern without any stress factors and I think we got the "nipping for fun"-thing sorted out. What I am really trying to work out is how to get him to higher tolerance to fence pressure and stock pressure, without getting to the point where he reacts that way. 



> the dog can't handle the stock pressure so he pushes to make them move away from him but at the same time, he doesn't want them to get away--quite the conflict. One of the issues is with a breed that was bred for independence and working without so much handler input, you're sort of penalizing them and training against instinct. I wouldn't put him in situations where he thinks his life is at stake.


He is relatively relaxed in the pens now - it took about 7 months.The sheep are sorted into small pens in the morning so we have to get a set out each time we go out - we can't get around it with less than someone else getting a dog and getting them out for us and that would take too much time. 

In terms of training against the tendency to work individually, my sense is that whenever he sees the whole picture, he is a lot happier. So when he is not understanding the point of an exercise (as in outruns on standing pens where the stock don't move), he gets upset.

As soon as the "point" is clear to him, he relaxes more but he tends to try to go ahead of events (when he knows we are headed to sort, he leaves the stock behind and runs over to the gates to be ready, or during sorting he tries to come up too close to "speed up" the process). 

If he gets set on a certain pattern or direction, he doesn't like to change it and starts barking or simply moves the sheep off me in the direction they are "supposed" to go. So I have to take care to never do one pattern or direction repeatedly since I need him in on the idea that his job is not to move them from point A to point B but to move them where I want them to go.


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## Kellie Wolverton (Jan 16, 2009)

"He is relatively relaxed in the pens now - it took about 7 months.The sheep are sorted into small pens in the morning so we have to get a set out each time we go out - we can't get around it with less than someone else getting a dog and getting them out for us and that would take too much time. "

Can you get around the sheep and bring them out yourself? That pen work is so stressful. And it really sounds like this is where the reaction to all the pressure is beginning, which is setting the tone for all of the rest of your training session. Set out work like that is for a much older/ experienced dog.

Are you worried about the time because you only have so much time to work? ie are you paying stock fee by the hour?


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

My young BC can be pushy and can do a bit of diving in and hock nipping. His is not from self preservation though as he is a very confident dog, he just tends to be super keen and his mother has always been a real handful. 

I have been spending a lot of time with him on a long line driving the sheep. The line is usually dragging but I watch him closely and I now know when he is likely to dive in and I stop him before he starts and encourage to take up the correct position at a calm pace. I find it easier with the line working behind him and encouraging him to position himself on their tail. I find this work is really helping to steady him and teaching him to work the stock appropriately.

I always carry a stock stick and I will spend time with it flicking him out if he starts slicing flanks at speed. I also use it to enforce his waits (he stands) and will bang it on the ground.

I have a young ACD that I trial with and is fantastic in agility. I had a go with her on sheep but she is not working bred and also has a very high prey drive and is a real hunter. She was very nervous close up with sheep and I could tell by her body language and her eyes when the pressure got to much and she was about to lash out. She could and would inflict a lot of damage so I decided my time was better spent on my other sheepdogs. My other ACD however is quite gentle and is quite good at driving stock and she will give them gentle nips and will bark to keep them moving, but she is getting old so I dont let her do to much.


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## Kellie Wolverton (Jan 16, 2009)

Sara Waters said:


> I had a go with her on sheep but she is not working bred and also has a very high prey drive and is a real hunter. She was very nervous close up with sheep and I could tell by her body language and her eyes when the pressure got to much and she was about to lash out. She could and would inflict a lot of damage so I decided my time was better spent on my other sheepdogs..


I have found this to be true as well. Herding breed doesn't automatically translate into herding dog:wink:


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Well, her qualities are probably more from her working past than any other purpose breedinng. I don't have a dog in my house that is "working bred" unless I bred it myself and I can match their quality of work against any so called working bred. My found on the street BC isn't any different starting out than some of my club members "working bred." If you know what you are selecting for, sorry, but the purpose it was bred for doesn't mean all that much. I've seen some crappy working bred stuff that is useless on stock or for protection work and the same from other purpose breeding---again, selection and then development is the key. I tell people not to get caught up in the working vs. show war/propaganda. Take the dog out and see what he shows you and listen to what he is trying to tell you. 

Sara is kinda describing how I work with mine with the line driving. She's done lots of control/balance work with the walkabouts. She's not worried about trialing him right now--just his foundation skills. If you see an issue with a dog, don't ignore it. Start setting up scenarios that will address it.Don't push so fast. Be an advocate for your dog with trainers. They don't know everything and have their own agendas at times. If the dog is quitting and shutting down, he's not a punk. Stop and consider what you are doing. I learned that if the small dog thinks his little life is at stake, it is. Listen to them. Stock are always challenging/threatening them. You have to support them in handling and work with them handling it calmly. You treat them like they just have malice in their heart, and they won't have any faither in you and they won't listen to you. You are putting them in situations they interpret as harms way. 

Young dogs lose their heads. They over pressure the stock. Its a neccesary evil. You have to have stock that doesn't trigger certain behaviors when you are starting out. So work with the right stock for that dog and the lessons you are trying to instill and don't change the stock or geographics for that matter until you get it.

Terrasita


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Well, her qualities are probably more from her working past than any other purpose breedinng. I don't have a dog in my house that is "working bred" unless I bred it myself and I can match their quality of work against any so called working bred. My found on the street BC isn't any different starting out than some of my club members "working bred." If you know what you are selecting for, sorry, but the purpose it was bred for doesn't mean all that much. I've seen some crappy working bred stuff that is useless on stock or for protection work and the same from other purpose breeding---again, selection and then development is the key. I tell people not to get caught up in the working vs. show war/propaganda. Take the dog out and see what he shows you and listen to what he is trying to tell you.
> Terrasita


I would have to say that when you work dogs in very difficult terrain on 1000's of acres and thousands of sheep you soon get to know what is useful, what isnt and what you need to breed for. A dog with a good blind cast and the ability to muster scattered stock in difficult terrain is worth its weight in gold. The mustering ability is linked to an inherited ability to look and search for sheep as it casts - a good casting break. 

Yes there are many terrible "working bred dogs" but this is a result of a lack of real understanding of what you are breeding for and how the different traits are both inherited and used. There are a couple of awesome breeders over here whose knowledge is astounding and their dogs brilliant, but they refuse to trial anymore, concentrating on breeding quality dogs for large sheep enterprises.

I comment on my ACD because I used to work on a cattle station many years ago and I had a working bred ACD and she was like chalk and cheese with my more recent showbred ACDS in regards to stock sense. In fact over here it is hard to find a good working bred ACD as they have largely been replaced by mustering helicopters and the like.


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## Annika Friberg (Mar 27, 2009)

Kellie Wolverton said:


> "Can you get around the sheep and bring them out yourself? That pen work is so stressful. And it really sounds like this is where the reaction to all the pressure is beginning, which is setting the tone for all of the rest of your training session. Set out work like that is for a much older/ experienced dog.
> 
> Are you worried about the time because you only have so much time to work? ie are you paying stock fee by the hour?


 We have an hour a week - we always work with the trainer except occasional weekend times when we get a chance to work on our own for an additional hour or two. I can't get out any earlier than the starting time - takes me an hour to drive - and there are other people coming in immediately after us so we need to end relatively promptly at the end of the hour. No, I can't really bring the stock out without a dog - they tend to stick to the small pen like glue.

But really, we did get over most of the small pen stress - again, the idea of knowing what was supposed to happen made a big difference as did taking it slowly and working slightly larger pens after the same concept for a while. 



> If you see an issue with a dog, don't ignore it. Start setting up scenarios that will address it.Don't push so fast. Be an advocate for your dog with trainers. They don't know everything and have their own agendas at times. If the dog is quitting and shutting down, he's not a punk. Stop and consider what you are doing. I learned that if the small dog thinks his little life is at stake, it is. Listen to them. Stock are always challenging/threatening them. You have to support them in handling and work with them handling it calmly.


In hindsight, the small pen stuff probably contributed to some other issues but I do feel like we are working things out gradually and that he IS getting more confident over time though we still have a long way to go. I know I come to WDF mainly to ask about things that don't go well - but every time we go out there's also tons that he seems to suddenly figure out: the light goes on, and he relaxes, settles into the work and gets it done. 

In hindsight, with more knowledge of the breed, of herding (reading stock) and his particular personality, I would of course have been able to do a lot of things differently. Now, I have to sort it out as I go. Not making excuses but the problem is that as a newbie handler, you are too clueless to be able to find, much less promote, alternative ways of doing things. You sort of have to listen and learn until you know enough.


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## Annika Friberg (Mar 27, 2009)

> I would have to say that when you work dogs in very difficult terrain on 1000's of acres and thousands of sheep you soon get to know what is useful, what isnt and what you need to breed for. A dog with a good blind cast and the ability to muster scattered stock in difficult terrain is worth its weight in gold. The mustering ability is linked to an inherited ability to look and search for sheep as it casts - a good casting break.


Our situation is of course very different. I am doing this as a learning exercise - both for me and for the dog. Perhaps in the future, I will be in a situation where I would need to demand more of a dog (if I actually had stock). Or become so serious about trialling (and then probably getting stock) that I wanted a more specialized dog.

For now, I am just looking to see where we can get combining mine and his gradually emerging skills, and where we can get with this particular breed. I do think he would become good enough for daily chores on a smaller farm - not as much prey drive as your ACD - which is what the breed was intended for.


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Annika Friberg said:


> Our situation is of course very different. I am doing this as a learning exercise - both for me and for the dog. Perhaps in the future, I will be in a situation where I would need to demand more of a dog (if I actually had stock). Or become so serious about trialling (and then probably getting stock) that I wanted a more specialized dog.
> 
> For now, I am just looking to see where we can get combining mine and his gradually emerging skills, and where we can get with this particular breed. I do think he would become good enough for daily chores on a smaller farm - not as much prey drive as your ACD - which is what the breed was intended for.


Yes I understand that, I was just replying to Terrasita about my thoughts on the breeding of working dogs.

And yes the ACD has a high prey drive but in breeding them for working there are a whole combination of desirable traits that you are looking for, which I dont believe my ACD has to be a good working dog, not compared to my station bred dog anyway. My station bred was incredibly high drive and would work all day in gruelling conditions but she was very calm, she read the stock and controlled with the right amount of force and never lost her head ever, even in dangerous situations, she was like that from the word go.

As one of our great stockman and breeder or working dogs comments the top dogs are those dogs that are so good that they make the job look easy and in many situations dont appear to be doing much at all, so they often get passed over in favour of the flashy dogs which look to be doing a lot but arent even in the same class. 

My BC I know is not a particularly great dog which is probably a combination of my training and his breeding, so I am like you - working and learning with what I have to have handy dogs. One day I would love to treat myself to one of those top working lines! although my farm is small in comparison so the requirements are probably not the same as people with 50,000 sheep LOL.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

One thing Sara said was that given her ACD's traits, she felt her time was better spent on the other sheep dogs. My comment was probably more in response to "herding breed does not mean herding dog" with regard to what Sara posted about that dog. Furthermore, I've seen the same in working bred dogs so I don't think its an issue of working vs. show bred. So its not that this dog can't be worked, the handler has decided she has better for what she needs and its not worth the TIME. 

This is a personal issue. We all have personal preferences in terms of the type of dog we like to work. For my personal dogs, I don't like handler sensitive or soft dogs and my training is not correction based. The dog also must have a sense of group and I like strong headers. When the going gets tough, I want the dog that will push harder, not shut down or look to me to fix it necessarily. I like a dog that has a sense of guard. This has saved me with cattle and an evil sheep or two. I'm never unhappy with my dogs because I always select what I want and generally get it. I'm also VERY patient and I'm not trial happy. I love to train but don't really care for trialing per se. I just do it to say yes we can. 

I'm big on from the dog's point of view and listen to what the dog is trying to tell you. Dogs don't get up in the morning telling themselves "today I'm going to run stock all over god's green creating and drive my handler crazy." There is the theory that the dog has malice in his heart but I don't subscribe to it. 

I've seen Ulfie's work on video. He can be developed into a decent dog if you don't create holes, ignore what he's trying to tell you about him, and push him too fast. 

We all started somewhere. People talk in terms of ruining their first dog. I think that's wrong. My first dogs were two power monger hell bent for leather GSD and PWC which herding folks thought were wolves. They were my stock educators and to this day if I'm stumped and look back through my notes and think of them and I'll figure it out for the dog in front of me. One guy tried to black list them. I still remember the trial where the AKC Rep came up to me with a catalogue inquiring when I was going to run my sheep run. My response was that I didn't have a sheep run. After she walked off confused, I went to the secretary and told her to pull my run. I knew if I went to the post worried about whether Rory gripped, that would set him up for one and certain folks were gunning for him. Ironically a year or so later that same Rep called to to find out if I wanted to bring Rory to the AKC Herding Institute to represent Pembroke Welsh Corgis. 

Most of what I know about pressure and how the dog sees his relationship with stock and just sheer natural talent, came from Rory. People said corgis couldn't . . . . You want to talk about natural cast and seeking ability blind---watch Rory recover 5 runaway St. Croix in grass taller than he was in 9 acres w/ a point in 90 degrees. He kept checking in and veering out until he got to head and deep for a lift to balance and lined them up to me and brought them in. Next 135 head in 6 acres. With them coming toward me and I couldn't see him, I curred out and asked for a stop thinking the draw was to the barn. Blew my mind that they began to run up hill to the right. Being the dog that he was, he took off up hill. This is a 32 pound 12 inch dog. Not a split or a bobble. He got ahead of them, lined them up and brought them in. This isn't training. This is natural talent but for these and other situations, I wouldn't have known existed. You could always send him blind. He tracked them and got himself where he needed to be and brought them in and he would rather die than lose livestock. 

My current dog has drive and will work until she keels over but I've never quite put her in Rory's camp. Trialed her recently and with horror noticed after I sent her that she couldn't see the stock. She's 10 inches tall on a hairy day and it was in an open field with tall grass. Wonder of wonders she put her nose in the air, located them and finished her outrun/cast to line them up for the fetch. With LOTS more work, she is coming into some of the Rory like things. A year ago I would have said, she is not a line dog. Just noticed as we have started up the training year, she is holding her own line on the drive. She never really worked with a a force hold and never a force bark. Now she does. She's finally figured out she can stay in the pocket and apply more pressure without motion necessarily and added that bark to her tool kit to do it. A year ago I would have told you, its not in her. Lots of work and trying to communicate this and she finally figured it out. 

So, its what type of time you want to put into it and the commitment to that dog. Some people wouldn't work my Khaldi. Too fast. Too pushy. Not biddable by any stretch of anybody's imagination. I refer to her as my union employee. She's also a tad slow in connecting the dots and my bouv is a rocket analytical scientist in comparison. Khaldi LIVES to work and is the kinda dog that brings joy to your heart. She also has a gorgeous natural cast and pressure release and is great with new lambs and dog breaking lambs and ducks. She'll also work cattle. Awesome chore dog. Nerve wracking trial dog but greatly improved in that regard. I've learned tons from her in terms of how specific a dog can be thought process-wise. 

Terrasita


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Yes I am sure my ACD could be taught but knowing her as I do it will be hard work and under pressure I think her true nature would surface. Not worth the risk to me. She bites stock and she bites hard and can inflict serious damage. She doesnt want to herd them , she wants to kill them, her line has been used by pig hunters and she has bought down a kangaroo.

My showbred BC is completely and utterley useless on stock - has absolutely no idea or one scrap of natural ability but that is the fate of the Australian showbred - they are big coated fluffy dogs bred exclusively for their looks. They have plenty of intelligence but that is where it seems to end. There has never been an Australian showbred ever make the working sheepdog trialing ring (apart from ANKC).

The very best dogs have true natural talent which is in herited and really it is then up to the handler to put in place the lines of communication to that dog. 

For dogs with less than natural inherited talent a good handler can turn them in to good handy dogs that is without doubt. But if you can breed for what you need it sure makes it easier.

My kelpie is a straight caster and with work I have taught her to cast out wide but I have noticed in pressure situations she always reverts. My BC on the other hand has always cast wide even under pressure. The more I learn about what I need the more inclined I am in the future to look for what I want through the breeders I know who understand what makes a good dog. Trouble is these lines of dogs dont come cheap and there is often a wait list. The breeder I am most interested in doesnt let his pups go untill they are 4-5 months old and he has had a chance to have a good look at them so he can keep what he needs and place the rest in the most suitable situations.

I dont particularly care about trialing myself. I am pretty sure my dogs wont be ready untill they are a at least 3. I class myself as a reletively inexperienced sheepdog trainer although I have trained dogs for other venues like agility and obedience. My training methods are also not correction based and I prefer dogs that are not soft and sensitive (I have 3 of those LOL). My BC is defintely not one! he is also going to be nerve wracking in the triall field if I ever get him there!. But he is a good worker on the farm although he does lack certain natural talents that I would love!

Rory sounds like a dog that is a must to bottle those genes. A good dog to spread his genes! 

Some of our old stockmen have commented recently that they are dissapointed at the way sheepdog breeding is going these days in the way the a lot of people seem to breed exclusively for doing well in the trial ring and ignoring the traits that make a dog truly uselful in the real world so to speak.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Sara Waters said:


> Yes I am sure my ACD could be taught but knowing her as I do it will be hard work and under pressure I think her true nature would surface. Not worth the risk to me. She bites stock and she bites hard and can inflict serious damage. She doesnt want to herd them , she wants to kill them, her line has been used by pig hunters and she has bought down a kangaroo.
> 
> My showbred BC is completely and utterley useless on stock - has absolutely no idea or one scrap of natural ability but that is the fate of the Australian showbred - they are big coated fluffy dogs bred exclusively for their looks. They have plenty of intelligence but that is where it seems to end. There has never been an Australian showbred ever make the working sheepdog trialing ring (apart from ANKC).
> 
> ...


Ahhhhh, so she is what she was bred to be. I wondered about the truncated kill aspect. Some time it is specific to certain stock only. But if its generalized, you're right she's not safe. I was gonna ask you about the selection part of it. Have read much about the Australian/New Zealand "barbie collies." My part of working show line dogs is that I find the ones that HAVE the traits I'm looking for. If they don't have them, they don't come home with me. What convinced you to bring this dog home? Ohhhh, I wholeheartedly agree with you about breeding what you need in terms of inherited traits. This is something people have spent their life times at. I've tried to get Tony to comment on selecting for and trait inheritability. That's something thats fascinating to me and why I like to read BC breed history books. 

Yes, I've worked one straight caster [Teva--GSD] and yes, what a pain. But in retrospect, a lot of the problems I had was in arenas. Out in the pasture, she figured it out and employed great lifts. Strangely, she did have a natural sense of rate. 4-5 months---ugggghhhhh. Hopefully he doesn't keep all of the better ones and he raises them right for your lifestyle. But I guess you would get to see how they worked. However, BC folk are good for not starting until 6 months---1 year. 

Rory was my dog of a life time and I didn't breed him enough or bottle him--1 litter. I've trained several to advanced level trial/chore work and Rory was the cream of the crop. Some would say Asta--GSD was better but Rory made me a trainer. Asta did most things on her own, so not so much the learning tool. My bouv Khira is to die for and has the same Asta and Rory type traits but added this prey trigger thing that took me by surprise. Her intelligence and analysis are scary at times. Khaldi has worked my training brain to death--very visual and very specific and just plain hard headed. But what perseverance and time will get you---a line dog even in the direction of the draw. I'm still amazed. Marker training has taken care of a lot of the biddability issues. In Temple Grandin's first book, she talked about dogs/autistic people seeing in frames. This is Khaldi. She's taught me about frames and generalization. I like trying to understand how a particular dog's mind works although I've had days that Khaldi has gotten me over this. Last fall, I thought she had reached a pinnacle and now this spring she brings even more to the table. I started all this late in her life because I was working other dogs. Just think if I had started at the beginning.

The old stock men are right. It continues to be the debate in the U.S. trialing world. I have refused to water down my dogs or shut them down to zero for playing sheep billiards w/ the light/fright types. I really don't like mechanical placement work. 

Terrasita


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## Annika Friberg (Mar 27, 2009)

> In Temple Grandin's first book, she talked about dogs/autistic people seeing in frames. This is Khaldi. She's taught me about frames and generalization.


completely OT but did you see the film about TG? I really liked it - bought copies for everyone with a spring birthday (took care of a lot of shopping that way) .



> I've seen Ulfie's work on video. He can be developed into a decent dog if you don't create holes, ignore what he's trying to tell you about him, and push him too fast.


I'm not giving up on him...I do feel that we can develop a lot more still, both of us. I am worried that I'll inadvertently screw him up at some point though. The deaf leading the blind and so forth.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Annika Friberg said:


> completely OT but did you see the film about TG? I really liked it - bought copies for everyone with a spring birthday (took care of a lot of shopping that way) .
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not giving up on him...I do feel that we can develop a lot more still, both of us. I am worried that I'll inadvertently screw him up at some point though. The deaf leading the blind and so forth.


Nahhhh, didn't see the TG film. I like her a lot for livestock but not sooooo much for dogs, other than about a page of a 300+ page book. Well, keep in mind if you wanna know what's in the livestock, watch how the dog reacts and how his reactions differ depending on what stock he was working. Your clue will be how much he barks at you in a session.

T


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Ahhhhh, so she is what she was bred to be. I wondered about the truncated kill aspect. Some time it is specific to certain stock only. But if its generalized, you're right she's not safe. I was gonna ask you about the selection part of it. Have read much about the Australian/New Zealand "barbie collies." My part of working show line dogs is that I find the ones that HAVE the traits I'm looking for. If they don't have them, they don't come home with me. What convinced you to bring this dog home? Ohhhh, I wholeheartedly agree with you about breeding what you need in terms of inherited traits. This is something people have spent their life times at. I've tried to get Tony to comment on selecting for and trait inheritability. That's something thats fascinating to me and why I like to read BC breed history books.
> 
> Yes, I've worked one straight caster [Teva--GSD] and yes, what a pain. But in retrospect, a lot of the problems I had was in arenas. Out in the pasture, she figured it out and employed great lifts. Strangely, she did have a natural sense of rate. 4-5 months---ugggghhhhh. Hopefully he doesn't keep all of the better ones and he raises them right for your lifestyle. But I guess you would get to see how they worked. However, BC folk are good for not starting until 6 months---1 year.
> 
> ...


The breeder of my ACD has dropped her parents from her showbreeding program, probably when she realised what good pig dogs they were LOL. Fine with people and other dogs just not fine with anything else.

My little showbred no one wanted her same with my koolie and kelpie. I must stop bringing home other peoples throw aways! I seem to be one of the few people that can go to a trial and come home with a dog no one wants. My Koolie is turning out fine, he is a wonderful dog on stock but my kelpie is very soft and will need a lot of work. You are right to only come home with the goods!

The BC breeder doesnt start them he just gets a sense of how they feel, and yes he will keep what he wants for his breeding stock. He raises serious sheepdogs and will only let them go to suitable situations paired with who he considers will be the best fit, apparently the majority of them are fab and worth every cent. He doesnt believe in starting a pup on sheep untill it is at least 6 months and prefers to wait longer. I enjoy his method of training as he has such a natural feel and respect for the dogs.


Khadi sounds somewhat like my BC. He is driven and hard and biddability is a big issue mainly because he is so intense. Mind you I had an excellent session with him this morning. As he matures I think he is turning corners. I am endlessy patient with him and show him what I want. At the moment I am teaching him to work from the tail and he is really starting to get it. He now goes straight to the tail when I ask. I have to work on his steady as he prefers to do everything at full speed but again working him from behind on the tail is slowly solving that. I know what you mean about barking, one of my ACDS used to tell me off by barking if I wasnt being clear enough or if she considered my stock sense was lacking.

I am reading a book by Tully Williams about breeding, raising and training the working sheepdog and am loving it.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Sara, 

Why are you sending him to the tails?


Terrasita


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Every time I see this thread it reminds me of something that happened in grade 10, my senior year of high school :lol:


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

I am wanting my dog to base himself on the tail and move himself from there towards the head when required. I try and practice draw ringing. So bring the sheep part way towards me and then get my dog to come round to me and drive them away

His natural tendency is to over head which makes it difficult to move the sheep anywhere, he likes to keep sliding around to the head and moving them full speed towards me. 

I find teaching him this way is also helping his directional commands on the draw. . I find he is starting to get the concept and it seems to calm him down and get him thinking.

We do a lot of him walking in front of me driving the sheep away from me and changing direction in front of me and then when I ask him he will bring them back towards me. Before he was constantly bringing them back to me and slicing his flanks badly. He is quite a busy dog and I am trying to teach the concept of minima lwell placed steady movement to get the sheep to change direction. I find it easier to teach him this from behind where I can control him with the line if needed.

Always open to suggestions though 

Hope that explains things. No idea if it is the way people train but it is really working with my intense hard headed young man. I train entirely on my own because of the isolated area I live in, so have to figure most of this out for myself to come up with a useful dog.


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> Every time I see this thread it reminds me of something that happened in grade 10, my senior year of high school :lol:


mmm the mind boggles LOL


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## Annika Friberg (Mar 27, 2009)

> Every time I see this thread it reminds me of something that happened in grade 10, my senior year of high school :lol:


I'm afraid to ask...


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Sara Waters said:


> I am wanting my dog to base himself on the tail and move himself from there towards the head when required. I try and practice draw ringing. So bring the sheep part way towards me and then get my dog to come round to me and drive them away
> 
> His natural tendency is to over head which makes it difficult to move the sheep anywhere, he likes to keep sliding around to the head and moving them full speed towards me.
> 
> ...


No no, it may be a terms thing. Dog can be at the rear of the stock yet in control of the heads. So you are doing what we call off balance work. You call him off balance to flank him and turn the sheep in a different direction. I kinda use the line work for the same reason. It does cut down on the frantic and the busy.

As for Gerry, I don't think the female mind can relate to this especially mixing the 10th and senior year together in the same sentence. 

Terrasita


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> No no, it may be a terms thing. Dog can be at the rear of the stock yet in control of the heads. So you are doing what we call off balance work. You call him off balance to flank him and turn the sheep in a different direction. I kinda use the line work for the same reason. It does cut down on the frantic and the busy.
> 
> As for Gerry, I don't think the female mind can relate to this especially mixing the 10th and senior year together in the same sentence.
> 
> Terrasita


Yes he his obsessed in balancing to me. So yes I guess the correct term is off balance. Saves me getting mown down and crushed at the knees by my training sheep. I suspect it takes quite a bit of concentration on his part. He is quite a slow maturing male as is most of his line so I have to be patient and mindful of this. He is very driven by instinct so I have to slow him down and get him to think as well and try and give some purpose to what we are doing. I think he is the type of dog if rushed in his training will easily develop bad habits.

Gerry it is proably good thing for this thread that a few of the feisty girls on this site most likely havent as yet spied your post as herding is probably not their thing.


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## Kellie Wolverton (Jan 16, 2009)

. No said:


> Maybe you could take some of your lesson time to "learn" how to get the stock out of the pen yourself. That may help you understand what you are asking of your dog. Just a thought.
> 
> Here in AZ there is a woman who does a "university" type of herding training. The people all spend time "being the dog". From what I have heard, that has been very helpful to those that take the classes.
> 
> ...


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## Annika Friberg (Mar 27, 2009)

Kellie Wolverton said:


> Here in AZ there is a woman who does a "university" type of herding training. The people all spend time "being the dog". From what I have heard, that has been very helpful to those that take the classes.
> 
> I started working cattle horseback, long before I ever trained a dog to help. We have always had ACDs that we just used as forcing dogs, behind the cattle to get them moving if they stalled out, or loaded into a trailer.
> 
> ...


Sounds like a great class. I wonder if CSU has something similar in their animal husbandry program (I can take classes there for free). 

It's definitely tough to learn from scratch. I had been around horses, sheep and cattle before but never tried to move them. And of course the dog initially doesn't trust you since he KNOWS you have no clue where he or you should be.


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## Kellie Wolverton (Jan 16, 2009)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> Every time I see this thread it reminds me of something that happened in grade 10, my senior year of high school :lol:


Gerry,

I hate to be the one to tell you this...but just because it was your last year...it doesn't automatically become your senior year:-D:-D:-D:-D:-D:-D:-D:-D:-D:-D:-D:-D:-D:-D:-D:-D:-D:-D:-D:-D:-D:-D:-D:-D:-D:-D:-D:-D:-D


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## Kellie Wolverton (Jan 16, 2009)

Annika Friberg said:


> Sounds like a great class. I wonder if CSU has something similar in their animal husbandry program (I can take classes there for free).
> 
> It's definitely tough to learn from scratch. I had been around horses, sheep and cattle before but never tried to move them. And of course the dog initially doesn't trust you since he KNOWS you have no clue where he or you should be.


 That would be great, if they offered a class like that! Definitely worth checking into! 

If you wanted to make a trip up to the Phoenix area, I could get the info for you. I think they call it something like "ICE University", but I am not entirely sure about the name.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

I'm pretty good at moving stock without a dog but there have been times that we trekked back to get the dogs. Fetchy sheep don't readily move off a person necessarily. I do a lot of move stock with ducks. I just started someone where the task was to move a set of ducks into a circle in the middle of the field. Learned this in a Vern Thorp clinic. Take two people. You can't talk to each other or give any directions. You must balance to one another and work with one another. In the clinic with Vern we were amazed at how people worked like their dogs---same strengths and weaknesses. This was quite the eye opener. I of course am a GSD. Sandra and I have been moving stock together for years. We found she has very little focus/ mental pressure and worked with her body. I had to be at the fence and release pressure [a lot] to balance to her. Her body pressure wasn't very effective because she was mentally focusing pressure. Sandra is ADD. So it was fascinating to see this. Anymore, a do lessons with this sort of task so the person can get a feel for what the dog is trying to do. One of my last Bob Vest lessons was the difference between over the top pressure vs. center mass pressure in moving sheep.

Terrasita


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## Kellie Wolverton (Jan 16, 2009)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> Every time I see this thread it reminds me of something that happened in grade 10, my senior year of high school :lol:


I literally was just driving down the road and had an AHA moment...I couldn't figure out what you were talking about Gerry

Let me just say OUCH!!!

rotfl


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