# Unconsious handler



## Carmela Balcazar (Oct 22, 2006)

Here is the scenario... I am unable to call off or terminate a command as i was knocked unconsious but my dog has managed to drive off the attackers. My question is, how do we teach (if that is possible) the dog to allow people to help me?


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

Interesting question, I don't think its likely that you can train for it, because how will the dog distringuish between a 2nd attacker that is acting nice to try and get past the dog, and someone that is trying to help you?

Kinda wondering how you got unconscious to begin with unless your dog isnt very quick on the trigger.


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

It doesn't take much to whack someone unconscious before the dog can engage. Of course, this is all hypothetical anyway, so who cares? :lol:


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Are the LEOs here trained in, or at least discuss this scenario?
David, Tim, the rest of you folks?


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

I am not an expert, but I can say that when I go and train with the LE that they do train an "officer down" scenario and work on the dog being able to be handled and loaded into a vehicle so that the handler can be treated........

Not sure if this is the correct way or if that should be done in the sport field, but that is what I have noticed.....we do that with our SAR dogs as well.


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## Bob Passmore (Jul 20, 2006)

I was at a local protection dog tournament once and they had a scenario kind
of like this. The handler was unconscious, say having a heart attack, or needing help. Would the dog allow paramedics or assistance to be given to his handler or keep them away. 

I have no idea how to train for it. My dog did allow himself to be led away and as I remember the other dogs trialing did too. 

I think this is an interesting question, and at my age, not as hypothetical as for Kristen. 

Bob


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Not sure, but I think cops have something that notifies someone if they are laying down and have not called in to say they would be in that position.

Really, something to think about with PP dogs.:lol: YES!!! training questions ! ! ! ! !


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

If someone did come to your aid, while you're out cold, what would let him know that this dog is trained in PP. More than likely, nothing. The dog would be approached as would anyother dog standing next to an unconscious owner. I would hope that they would not rush right in, but if they didn't they wouldn't know if you were going to live or not.

The dog, doing his duty, shouldn't let anyone to you. That's his job. He has no clue who the good guys are. Snare pole would do just fine but are you about to take your last breath? This would be one of those things that you must consider when owning a PPD. You do take the chance of dying but you also are putting your dog in the same situation. Whether you have been attacked by someone, had a heart attack or the bad guy decides to take your dog out first then you. With a PPD you pray you never need his help but you want him to be there for you if you do. IMO you do not train this dog to let someone come to your aid. 

This too will probably happen, the police will get there when no one can help you and he will shoot your dog.

What thoughts does anyone else have? Very fine line isn't it.


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## Greg Long (Mar 27, 2006)

I will jump in here for this one. There are 2 things you can do. Number 1 is that you can train with paramedics and familiarize the dog with the sights and smells of EMTs and in particular their uniforms. Dont laugh because this has been done before. The more you train for the scenario then the more likely the dog will be able to be controlled or at least be at ease with the paramedics(of course this may not be practical). You must train the dog to discern a threat from a nonthreat as well. Number 2 is that you can have another person you are close to be able to control the dog. Again this takes training. There is no short cuts only hard work. It IS possible. In a situation where time is of the essence then the first way is better but you have to find some willing paramedics.


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## Al Curbow (Mar 27, 2006)

I have one that would be okay with the right approach and one that would have to be shot, different thresholds and all that stuff i guess


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Ok - I was watching a PSD training seminar in which the perp knocked down the handler. The dogs went for the handler (the person on the ground). These were not bad dogs and it only took one or two tries for each dog before they sorted it out. 

So I guess I would be concerned about that first. 

After all, this IS hypothetical. :lol:


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Anne Vaini said:


> Ok - I was watching a PSD training seminar in which the perp knocked down the handler. The dogs went for the handler (the person on the ground). These were not bad dogs and it only took one or two tries for each dog before they sorted it out.
> 
> So I guess I would be concerned about that first.
> 
> After all, this IS hypothetical. :lol:


 
I've heard of this before. LEOs/PPD trainers. How common is this?


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## Archie David (Apr 4, 2007)

If I may share..

I would believe that for LE, the dog has been worked in a team scenario. Meaning the dog is familiar with the scent of the fallen officers' teammates thus it can be led back to the patrol car or any safer location.

The question however is directed towards PP dogs. It is very interesting how different groups would train for this. This question was posted at a different forum and the one that posted it knows full well that the training method they employed was for their dogs to react when someone approaches them. The question now is have they tried this scenario using someone that is not wearing any suit.

Here's another question, some dogs are muzzle smart (just like those that become collar smart) right? How would one train for this scenario given such a dog?


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## Carmela Balcazar (Oct 22, 2006)

Archie David said:


> ... It is very interesting how different groups would train for this. This question was posted at a different forum and the one that posted it knows full well that the training method they employed was for their dogs to react when someone approaches them. The question now is have they tried this scenario using someone that is not wearing any suit.


Archie - I brought the question to this forum because it is valid and a concern for ME. I'm looking for answers, options, opinions and perspectives from a larger database of working dog folks. If you have something to share, I'd like to hear it. 

Carmela


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

This is a good question but it had nothing to do with PSD. There is a difference. PSD knows the uniforms of the LEO so this is not an issue getting to the downed officer. 

Back to topic please, PPD, unconsious handler.


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## Archie David (Apr 4, 2007)

Carmela Balcazar said:


> Archie - I brought the question to this forum because it is valid and a concern for ME. I'm looking for answers, options, opinions and perspectives from a larger database of working dog folks. If you have something to share, I'd like to hear it.
> 
> Carmela


I too am intrigued by the question that's why I threw in a few more "what ifs". Like what the other posters said, it's not about PSD's but more on how PPD's are trained for the pertained scenario.

So much like you, I would like to read what others could share.


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

Oops, I think my hypothetical comment might have been taken wrong. What I meant was that this was a hypothetical question, so who cares HOW the person became unconscious, NOT 'who cares about the answer to the question, since it's hypothetical.'


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I guess I am thinking that working with paramedics would not be feasable, as I thought of that as well, but how did the dog respond in the first place??? 

Overall, this question is rather vague, really, so if the handler is knocked unconcious, I have a feeling that the dog would be either gone, or not that hard to control.

How about the poster comes up with something a little more in detail, and then we go at that scenario???

You know your dog, so fit it to your situation.


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## Carmela Balcazar (Oct 22, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I guess I am thinking that working with paramedics would not be feasable, as I thought of that as well, but how did the dog respond in the first place???
> 
> Overall, this question is rather vague, really, so if the handler is knocked unconcious, I have a feeling that the dog would be either gone, or not that hard to control.
> 
> ...


Here is my situation. Our dog is civil and defensive but will tolerate strangers around us. Depending on how these strangers act, he will take the appropriate action. He is also very strongly bonded to me and my husband so he takes his job very seriously. His defensive instincts are even more apparent when I have my head up in the clouds or when I'm distracted. He is our constant companion.

I'm a small woman and our farm has many isolated places and heavily wooded areas. We also have properties up in the mountains. Many times, I have stumbled into trespassers which could range from children looking for mushrooms, women gathering firewood or thieves stealing nuts. There also have been evidence of cattle rustlers using the farm to skin stolen cattle. Our area is also frequented by communist rebels, and robbery at gun or knifepoint, as well as kidnapping is a common occurence. We do NOT have paramedics nor can we rely on our local LEs for immediate help (if they ever do come). We have to rely on good samaritans to help a victim. I also drive alone with him in the back.

My dog tolerates women more than men so I was wondering if that can be tapped into? Or is this still a dangerous thing?


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

I'd move!!


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## Carmela Balcazar (Oct 22, 2006)

Mike Schoonbrood said:


> I'd move!!


LOL! Then I'll be bored and my dog wouldn't have anything to do. 
But seriously, the peace and order situation over here leaves much to be desired. But hey - its home so we do the best we can.


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## Archie David (Apr 4, 2007)

Mike Schoonbrood said:


> I'd move!!


LMFAO :lol: :lol: :lol: 

On a serious note, I'd like to ask you Carmela some things. Being that you are somewhat popular in your neck of the woods, specially that not many folk there walk around with a huge dog like yours, you would've earned a reputation of having an intimidating PPD. Your training sessions there would have also contributed to that reputation? Given that, would you agree with me that there will be apprehensions felt if and when somebody would like to approach you?

Being that your dog as you said, is civil and defensive, how would you think your dog would react if in case the unfortunate incident of a "handler unconscious" is to happen.

I think one solution is for you to establish proper logistics among your household. Have a few of your most trusted "help" get very familiarized with your dog. You've been training for so long and have in fact helped others train their dogs, I'm sure you know the methods in introducing others to your dog. 

Second, always advise them (your trusted help) of your treks or any acitivity that you normally do on your own. Fortunately, the current technology (mobile phones) that we have should help them out in locating you routinely. IMO, that's what I would do if I was in your shoes and would like to be as practical as possible.

Jeff Oehlsen mentioned a very logical point- "You know your dog, so fit it to your situation.". You also mentioned that your dog tolerates women better. You could start from there.


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## Carmela Balcazar (Oct 22, 2006)

Thanks for the suggestions Archie. The least of my worries is being around people who are familiar with us or folks who understand or can read dogs. Unfortunately, I am not always surrounded by people who are in-the-know.

Everyone has been very helpful. Thanks very much!


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## Al Curbow (Mar 27, 2006)

Jerry Lyda said:


> This is a good question but it had nothing to do with PSD. There is a difference. PSD knows the uniforms of the LEO so this is not an issue getting to the downed officer.
> 
> Back to topic please, PPD, unconsious handler.


Jerry, are you saying that PSD's won't take on somebody in a uniform?


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

No , not really. I know now that it did sound that way. I've seen them come up the leash on their own handlers. I quess I'm saying that the possibilities of the PSD letting another LED take controll of him is better, but not always.

Now back to this.
Would you want to train a PPD to let a complete stranger come to your aid, being unconsious? The answer of course would be YES. Now if you do, would that be detrimental to his PPD training????

I would hope that my dog would do the same thing I've seen Lassie do many many times and go get me help. Lassie was a PPD dog and have seen that many times but that is the movies and Timmy should have run faster or jumped higher over that log and not fall.

If your PPD is serious about his job how would you train this? Not for the movies but for real.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

temperment of dog


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

In looking at your specifics, I am not sure that wandering about alone in those areas is always advisable. OR, you can always wear a helmet, and one of those "help, I have fallen and cannot get up" devices.

When I was in PI as a young Marine, I could buy an entire family, so surely you could get someone to go with you. Of course, Haiti I paid a lot less, so you could always try there first. The kid I got was wicked smart, and quick with a machete. 5$ US a week. Not bad.


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## Amber Scott Dyer (Oct 30, 2006)

Jerry, there was a situation several years ago here where one of the techs at Natl Hills AH got hit head on by a drunk driver that crossed the median on I-20 on her way to work (at 7 in the morning, none the less.) She had her dog, a really well socialized pit mix, in the backseat.The dog went ballistic and the EMTs couldn't get to her or get him out. They had to scare the dog out of the car, and somehow they ended up scaring the dog so badly that it ran off into the woods beside the interstate and got lost. Bad situation - as I understand it, when she woke up out of surgery, her first question was, "Where's my dog?" I never did hear whether they found the dog or not. 

That wasn't exactly a PP dog, though, and they wouldn't have been able to scare Bentley out of the there. :lol: In all seriousness, I know it might defeat the purpose of having a PP dog in the car, but this is one of the reasons I never ride without my dogs in the crate. An accident would be bad enough without someone having to shoot Bane to get me out of the car.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

I remember that Amber,really sad. I understand riding the dogs in a crate while driving. I do the same most of the time and that depends where I'm going. I've taken Bentley with me when I had to go to the job late at night for it's off Laney Walker Blvd but not in a crate. That is why he went with me. If I'm traveling they are in their crates.


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