# Teaching the Fight



## Haz Othman

So the pup is now about 10 months and Im trying to promote more fight while on the tug or ball and string. The pup pursues the moving object with plenty of intensity and is getting pretty fast at hitting the target has made me bleed a few times. Grips pretty hard and full. Where I am still not happy is the dog pulling / fighting on the bite. I used a post somewhat and when she hits the end of the line pulls. However when the line goes slack she generally stops pulling and just hangs on. I immediately give in to any pulling she does and have let her win alot for successfully pulling even a small amount. Where the issue is she will pull a time or two and then stop. I have done every thing in my power to take the ball or tug from her and she hangs on like a clamp just no fighting or barely any unless she has consistent back pressure. Again I have stopped letting her win unless she pulls even a bit.

Post work isnt going to work anyone have some other ideas to promote the fight?


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## Hunter Allred

I can tell you my experience with my dog. If we are playing (as in, no helper involved), if I'm not actively "fighting" he is not either. He does the same thing when playing with my bitch. He will dead fish her and laydown and just stay clamped on something, while her 64lbs inch by inch drags his 88lbs around the livingroom while he maintains a perfect "sphinx" down lol.

If I actively "fight"... or what I'd just call "rough housing" he will respond proportionally. During bitework with an aggressor/decoy, since we have long ago turned on and encouraged aggression, its a different ballgame and he fights the whole time, but moreso when the helper is fighting back. 

Why do you want her to pull? If I'm trying to encourage something... pulling/pushing/regrip/counter/whatever, I always make a big deal about it as my male is the type of dog that doesn't get that much reward from just possessing the toy... its the interaction that is rewarding for him. He will never take his newly won toy and go enjoy it alone, its immediatly thrust back into you. Some dogs, like my females, will take the object and go enjoy it alone. For example, if we have the type of dog that my male is, and he regrips deeper and thats what I want to reinforce, then the second he regrips I'm vocally and physically expressive, as though that regrip was really a strong punch to my face... I try to sound "impressed" if that makes any sense, let go and fall backwards as though his action really defeated me.

Does that make sense?


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## Haz Othman

Yes it makes sense. I recently started trying to get more fight out of her by just not giving it up and really doing all in my power to take the toy off her. Im generally not succesful as she is about 75 pounds now and not letting go. She does rebite and usually wants to push into the tug if I give her the opportunity. If I try to lift her off her front feet she puts her paws on my chest but still not much pulling.

I want her pulling and fighting as I want that behavior when she is on the sleeve. Also I dont want rebiting on the sleeve hence trying to promote better gripping and pulling on the tug/ball.

Whenever she pulls / fights on the bite I act dramatic and give in to her. She likes to run offf with toys and would if I hadnt trained her otherwise so definitely more possessive.

I want more consistent pulling less rebiting and pushing.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

What makes you think pulling is indicative of fighting? She's almost 10 months old and why would she be in fight mode with you? Don't you have a decoy that regularly works the dog?

T


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## Matt Vandart

lightly step on her toes to move her back?


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## Matt Vandart

Hunter Allred said:


> I can tell you my experience with my dog. If we are playing (as in, no helper involved), if I'm not actively "fighting" he is not either. He does the same thing when playing with my bitch. *He will dead fish her and laydown and just stay clamped on something, while her 64lbs inch by inch drags his 88lbs around the livingroom while he maintains a perfect "sphinx" down lol.*
> 
> If I actively "fight"... or what I'd just call "rough housing" he will respond proportionally. During bitework with an aggressor/decoy, since we have long ago turned on and encouraged aggression, its a different ballgame and he fights the whole time, but moreso when the helper is fighting back.
> 
> Why do you want her to pull? If I'm trying to encourage something... pulling/pushing/regrip/counter/whatever, I always make a big deal about it as my male is the type of dog that doesn't get that much reward from just possessing the toy... its the interaction that is rewarding for him. He will never take his newly won toy and go enjoy it alone, its immediatly thrust back into you. Some dogs, like my females, will take the object and go enjoy it alone. For example, if we have the type of dog that my male is, and he regrips deeper and thats what I want to reinforce, then the second he regrips I'm vocally and physically expressive, as though that regrip was really a strong punch to my face... I try to sound "impressed" if that makes any sense, let go and fall backwards as though his action really defeated me.
> 
> Does that make sense?


DUDE! please vid this!


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## Zakia Days

Yeah. Videos please.


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## Joby Becker

fight will be built when dog is on sleeve or suit with decoy, no?


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## Haz Othman

Its obviously not a real fight but I want the dog to want to rip the tug out of my hands. Thats my tug I will fight for it and make it mine, you know the attitude. 
The decoy works the dog on a bite wedge and she bites fine, but again Im there to provide back pressure and encouragement to pull on the bite. 
My issue is when we are tugging just her and me. 

Matt I have stepped on her foot by accident several times and she stays on the bite sometimes will thrash a bit. I just dont want her to pull because she wants to relieve stress whether its from her feet being stepped on or whatever else. I want her to pull because she has the will to win.

Ill try to get vid later this week but with the weather right now its a pain. Fyi those obedience issues that i had before have been resolved, I have to get some vid of her progress there too.


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## Joby Becker

oh ok..

If I was gonna try to promote this in a dog, I would probably smack the dog around while tugging actively, to amp it up some, and show submission to the dogs power physically and verbally, and give him the tug at strongest counters, and get him to push it back into you for more "fighting"

This may also possibly have to do with maturity, lower possession possibly, submissiveness or dog being overly respectful towards you, dog avoiding conflict with you, lack of interest in possessing tug, among other things.


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## Zakia Days

What the...? J/K I believe I am misunderstanding here. Can't wait to see the videos for clarity. You mean you have a pup that will maintain a full grip and not shift or chew when you do all the things you mentioned to her, but that's not good enough? Am I missing something here? Why on Earth would you want to mess that up or alter it in any way? Dogs have their own style of "fighting." Some things can be enhanced or taught with training, but most people would love to have what your pup does on her own, seemingly naturally. I don't get it. You also must take into account that you are her handler. Bear in mind that sometimes things change when there's someone else at the end of the tug or sleeve. If she's tugging with you, she may just want to play. Anyways. Hopefully the videos will clarify. Good luck with your training.


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## Joby Becker

Zakia Days said:


> If she's tugging with you, she may just want to play.


I can imagine this being a strong possibility, often it takes conflict to get what Haz is looking to do, which may or may not fit in well with the dog itself, depending, or its training plan.


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## Alice Bezemer

Haz Othman said:


> Yes it makes sense. I recently started trying to get more fight out of her by just not giving it up and really doing all in my power to take the toy off her. Im generally not succesful as she is about 75 pounds now and not letting go. She does rebite and usually wants to push into the tug if I give her the opportunity. If I try to lift her off her front feet she puts her paws on my chest but still not much pulling.
> 
> I want her pulling and fighting as I want that behavior when she is on the sleeve. Also I dont want rebiting on the sleeve hence trying to promote better gripping and pulling on the tug/ball.
> 
> Whenever she pulls / fights on the bite I act dramatic and give in to her. She likes to run offf with toys and would if I hadnt trained her otherwise so definitely more possessive.
> 
> I want more consistent pulling less rebiting and pushing.


Why are you doing this kind of behaviour with her when you should be using a decoy to promote the behaviour that you want? She is 10 months old and looks at you for direction and approval of her actions, she looks at you for guidance in her behaviour and all you will do at this point is confuse her. What she does on the field and during training with a decoy is very VERY different to what she does when she is alone with you. Did you consider that the behaviour you are getting from her that you do not want her to have might in fact be coming from her due to what you are doing with her to get rid of that behaviour?

Also, the dog seems to have a good bite from what I can tell from your post only she doesn't pull but digs in... why alter what is naturally there? 

What is the reason for wanting her to fight more? Be specific in your reasons of why you want her to fight more. Sounds to me like she has a full grip and doesn't move an inch. If she just hangs there on the bite and doesn't move I would have a decoy fix that and not fk about with it myself since it will do absolutly nothing more then confuse my dog.


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## Haz Othman

She will rebite the tug or get chewy if I make it dead, if Im trying to take it from her with consistent pressure (me pulling on it) she hangs on like a leech she also tends to push in and rebite if Im "fighting" with her for it. Her favourite thing is to put her paws on my chest when I pull up on the tug so we end up face to face but usually just hangs on no pulling. 
Her grip is hard in that there is nothing I can do to get the tug off here even if I use all my strength but it does shift here and there.

Why I want her to pull? Like I said because its desirable for IPO. I see the decoy once a week so I have to do some of this stuff at home. Also when the dog is pulling its not rebiting or shifting her grip in anyway. I use the ball as a reward but I would like to use the tug. I have avoided it to date because I dont want her behavior on the tug to transfer to the sleeve. Perhaps a mite overcautious..

As for desire to have it, she goes after it pretty hard. Will hit me centre of mass to get the thing. She likes to run off with it so she can chew it which ofcourse I dont allow. She prefers to possess and chew / hold the tug then to fight me for it. 
She brings it back because she was trained to not because she loves to.


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## Joby Becker

Haz Othman said:


> She will rebite the tug or get chewy if I make it dead, if Im trying to take it from her with consistent pressure (me pulling on it) she hangs on like a leech she also tends to push in and rebite if Im "fighting" with her for it. Her favourite thing is to put her paws on my chest when I pull up on the tug so we end up face to face but usually just hangs on no pulling.
> Her grip is hard in that there is nothing I can do to get the tug off here even if I use all my strength but it does shift here and there.
> 
> Why I want her to pull? Like I said because its desirable for IPO. I see the decoy once a week so I have to do some of this stuff at home. Also when the dog is pulling its not rebiting or shifting her grip in anyway.
> As for desire to have it, she goes after it pretty hard. Will hit me centre of mass to get the thing. She likes to run off with it so she can chew it which ofcourse I dont allow. She prefers to possess and chew / hold the tug then to fight me for it.
> She brings it back because she was trained to not because she loves to.


Haz, is the dog lacking while being worked on the helper?


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## Haz Othman

Nope not that I have seen. 
My honest critique:
She could pull a bit more but does with back pressure. She also could target better which sometimes leads to her needing to regrip the wedge. Other then that cant think of anything else. We just started doing the bark and hold of which I have vid of the second session. Doesnt really show what Im posting about but you can get an idea about her attitude from the vid.. Just cant get the vid link on this pc.


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## Matt Vandart

I agree with the people saying she sounds like she has a good calm grip, but then that is what I like and promote. Have you tried moving sideyways with her on the tug?
A vid would be very useful here because I think we are maybe missing the point.


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## Dave Colborn

I don't think you are really training the dog to fight, just to thrash and pull.

*Train your dog once a week in bitework with your helper and trust him or her enough to give you a plan of what to do during the week.*

*You should get to the point where you can make a dog stronger between sessions, but you don't have the skill yet if you are asking here. Trust your helper. Less is often more, and no training is always better than bad training.*

All you are trying to teach is a behavior. nothing more or less. You have to figure out, with the help of your training director and helper how to get that. To come to a good conclusion you will understand that a dog repeats a behavior when it is successful and gets rewarded. So, if you can stimulate it to thrash and pull by stepping on it's toes, as you mentioned, and it thrashes and pulls, you let it win the tug. Bam. You have shown the dog how to win the tug (if he actually finds that a valuable reward) and also how to come through the pain of you stepping on it's feet. As you go, elicit the same behavior, and only let go for stronger and stronger pulls. The behavior will get stronger as you go.

If I wanted to train IPO and be successful, even though I have trained dogs to do some things, I'd find an IPO guy or gal* that has competed to the level I wanted to*, and make a plan. I'd stick to it, because they know what the dog looks like on both ends of the training and what to expect along the way. 

You have to admit what you don't know to learn what you want to know sometimes. You have already clearly done that here, just stick with your training director and helper.

Good luck.






Haz Othman said:


> She will rebite the tug or get chewy if I make it dead, if Im trying to take it from her with consistent pressure (me pulling on it) she hangs on like a leech she also tends to push in and rebite if Im "fighting" with her for it. Her favourite thing is to put her paws on my chest when I pull up on the tug so we end up face to face but usually just hangs on no pulling.
> Her grip is hard in that there is nothing I can do to get the tug off here even if I use all my strength but it does shift here and there.
> 
> Why I want her to pull? Like I said because its desirable for IPO. I see the decoy once a week so I have to do some of this stuff at home. Also when the dog is pulling its not rebiting or shifting her grip in anyway. I use the ball as a reward but I would like to use the tug. I have avoided it to date because I dont want her behavior on the tug to transfer to the sleeve. Perhaps a mite overcautious..
> 
> As for desire to have it, she goes after it pretty hard. Will hit me centre of mass to get the thing. She likes to run off with it so she can chew it which ofcourse I dont allow. She prefers to possess and chew / hold the tug then to fight me for it.
> She brings it back because she was trained to not because she loves to.


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## Haz Othman

Dave Colborn said:


> I don't think you are really training the dog to fight, just to thrash and pull.
> 
> *Train your dog once a week in bitework with your helper and trust him or her enough to give you a plan of what to do during the week.*
> 
> *You should get to the point where you can make a dog stronger between sessions, but you don't have the skill yet if you are asking here. Trust your helper. Less is often more, and no training is always better than bad training.*
> 
> All you are trying to teach is a behavior. nothing more or less. You have to figure out, with the help of your training director and helper how to get that. To come to a good conclusion you will understand that a dog repeats a behavior when it is successful and gets rewarded. So, if you can stimulate it to thrash and pull by stepping on it's toes, as you mentioned, and it thrashes and pulls, you let it win the tug. Bam. You have shown the dog how to win the tug (if he actually finds that a valuable reward) and also how to come through the pain of you stepping on it's feet. As you go, elicit the same behavior, and only let go for stronger and stronger pulls. The behavior will get stronger as you go.
> 
> If I wanted to train IPO and be successful, even though I have trained dogs to do some things, I'd find an IPO guy or gal* that has competed to the level I wanted to*, and make a plan. I'd stick to it, because they know what the dog looks like on both ends of the training and what to expect along the way.
> 
> You have to admit what you don't know to learn what you want to know sometimes. You have already clearly done that here, just stick with your training director and helper.
> 
> Good luck.


Thats good advice David. Thing is I always like hearing other perspectives on what works and doesnt work. I have actually picked up a lot over the years when it comes to obedience related stuff on the net that I have actually used with success. I know protection type work requires more of an eye and feel but I like input even if I choose not to follow it.

Here is the second time we did the BH..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g_8gnDGvQlA

Here is me screwing around with the ball and tug a few months ago, not recent but you can get an idea of what Im talking about with the ball. She has changed a bit since then.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GICqKs-zdWo

Ill shoot a new vid when I get the chance.


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## Howard Gaines III

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> What makes you think pulling is indicative of fighting? She's almost 10 months old and why would she be in fight mode with you? Don't you have a decoy that regularly works the dog?
> 
> T


Love it! Why would the puppy want to fight the hand that feeds it? ](*,)


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## Haz Othman

I dont think you grasp what I am trying to say. I dont want the dog to attack me..


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## Howard Gaines III

Haz Othman said:


> I dont think you grasp what I am trying to say. I dont want the dog to attack me..


 Do you think she might be a very high prey dog...


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## Haz Othman

Not the highest..maybe on the medium end of high. You saying she isnt pulling because she has low prey or high prey?


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## Howard Gaines III

Just guessing that if she goes after the rag/sleeve/tug and has fun here and then drops it, there's a lack of interest. The excitement is in the chase and not the fight. 

I've had Labs that loved to run down cripples, once the bird expired then the interest wasn't there. Sure they would bring back dead birds, but the zest was in the chase...


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## Howard Gaines III

Here's another thought...have you ever "punished" her or given a harder than normal side slap while she was on the bite. She might be viewing this aspect as something she's not allowed to be doing. Could also be just a sensitive pup. Armchair quartewrbacking is so tough some days...as a pup I would give her time and not put much pressure on her. See how she matures in another month or so.


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## Haz Othman

Howard Gaines III said:


> Just guessing that if she goes after the rag/sleeve/tug and has fun here and then drops it, there's a lack of interest. The excitement is in the chase and not the fight.
> 
> I've had Labs that loved to run down cripples, once the bird expired then the interest wasn't there. Sure they would bring back dead birds, but the zest was in the chase...


Lol she doesnt drop it or let go. She is more intense now then in the vids i just posted. She isnt sensitive either i have had a few of those. Perhaps Im being to judgemental of her she is only 10 mnths..


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## Howard Gaines III

Hang in there...:mrgreen:


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## Geoff Empey

Joby Becker said:


> I can imagine this being a strong possibility, often it takes conflict to get what Haz is looking to do, which may or may not fit in well with the dog itself, depending, or its training plan.



The handler trying to create conflict to me is never a good thing. I am with what others have said buld the 'fight' with a helper not the handler. Doing the conflict with the handler is not a good thing for long term IMO. At one point you need the dog to respect the handler and work with the handler creating that type of 'fight' is counter productive to the 'respect' that the handler needs so that the dog is biddable to the handler. Doing it as play is one thing but adding an extra level of conflict is IMO confusing for the dog.


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## Haz Othman

Geoff I dont want conflict I just want more intensity on the tug, I want the dog to learn that pulling / thrashing on the tug = winning. Seems like an easy concepts but for whatever reason Im not getting it consistently.


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## Howard Gaines III

Haz Othman said:


> Geoff I dont want conflict I just want more intensity on the tug, I want the dog to learn that pulling / thrashing on the tug = winning. Seems like an easy concepts but for whatever reason Im not getting it consistently.


 Haz you can't put 20 ounces in a 12 ounce bottle...and some bottles take longer to fill.
Geoff is right...oh beer man make mine a 22 ouncer!


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## Joby Becker

Geoff Empey said:


> The handler trying to create conflict to me is never a good thing. I am with what others have said buld the 'fight' with a helper not the handler. Doing the conflict with the handler is not a good thing for long term IMO. At one point you need the dog to respect the handler and work with the handler creating that type of 'fight' is counter productive to the 'respect' that the handler needs so that the dog is biddable to the handler. Doing it as play is one thing but adding an extra level of conflict is IMO confusing for the dog.


oh I agree with most of this Geoff. I was not saying I recommend for him to do that, just saying that may be what it would take to do it, since the dog is not doing it on its own.

Like I said I cant say whether it would be right for that particular dog, or for his training program/goals.

I let my dogs fight me some time if they are inclined to do so, but I dont need high degree of training since I dont compete, and I let my dogs push me around some anyhow if they enjoy it.

I personally dont think I confuse my dogs that much when doing it, but have seen people do stuff like that with bad results, like dog not respecting them, or dog obviously getting confused etc., sorta like taking bites from your own dogs...  depends on the dogs, the people involved and the goals...

I mostly do stuff that me and whatever dog finds enjoyable. for me. personally.


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## Geoff Empey

Haz Othman said:


> Geoff I dont want conflict I just want more intensity on the tug, I want the dog to learn that pulling / thrashing on the tug = winning. Seems like an easy concepts but for whatever reason Im not getting it consistently.


Well you got me fooled by that, even the title of the thread says teaching the fight. So if you want to have intensity it isn't really about fighting or being rough. It is about playing for the intensity that you seek. 

So "If you want more intensity from your dog you have to be more intense yourself" 

Most of the time the cause for any "deficiency" gets placed at the feet of the dog. And, while that may be the case in some instances, it is usually not the cause for the problem. We need to take a look where it comes from in the first place. 
With that said, pulling / thrashing on the tug = winning has to be based in prey. While defense drive gives us intensity and seriousness, and ultimately a harder bite,. But pulling / thrashing on the tug = winning with intensity as you describe comes from prey, and prey only. 

With few exceptions, problems in any type of bite work result from the fact that the dog is wrestling with some sort of conflict, which interferes with his ability to deal with his prey in a clear fashion. 


No matter how good we are as handlers, interfering with the natural sequence of a game with the dog as a handler, as far as the dog is concerned, will always create some sort of conflict for the dog. I would also like to mention that undue and unfair levels of compulsion during the teaching of these exercises will only add to the conflict. When a situation reminds the dog of one of those conflict causing exercises, her focus will shift away from the prey and again she is wrestling with another issue at a time when she should be concentrating on her prey.


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## Haz Othman

Yes perhaps fight was the wrong word. Here is a vid that I just shot, I havent taught any of the exercises I do in concert with the ball reward with any compulsion nor have I even proofed them yet. I always let the dog win in the end. I encourage forward behavior, I just want to foster / create a certain type of intensity on the tug / ball.

Here is a session of mixed obedience and tugging I just shot. Like I said I dont think prey is the issue.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9UgXIu0I-7Y&feature=youtu.be


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## Daniel Lybbert

You need a tug instead of a ball and you need a longer leash for sure. A good bite wedge is useful.


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## Lisa Radcliffe

Haz Othman said:


> So the pup is now about 10 months and Im trying to promote more fight while on the tug or ball and string. The pup pursues the moving object with plenty of intensity and is getting pretty fast at hitting the target has made me bleed a few times. Grips pretty hard and full. Where I am still not happy is the dog pulling / fighting on the bite. I used a post somewhat and when she hits the end of the line pulls. However when the line goes slack she generally stops pulling and just hangs on. I immediately give in to any pulling she does and have let her win alot for successfully pulling even a small amount. Where the issue is she will pull a time or two and then stop. I have done every thing in my power to take the ball or tug from her and she hangs on like a clamp just no fighting or barely any unless she has consistent back pressure. Again I have stopped letting her win unless she pulls even a bit.
> 
> Post work isnt going to work anyone have some other ideas to promote the fight?


Have you tried teaching her that her reaction (barking) makes the tug work start? Give a bark command then bite and tug with her, start over again- pretty much teaching her out and guard then tugging again, also a good thick wide soft tug depending on the dog sometimes the ball is not the best as they can't sink their teeth in. Good luck in your videos she looks like she likes you a lot!


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## Joby Becker

how much does everyone think that pulling strongly on a ball or tug with the handler has a huge impact on how the dog will respond to good helper work?


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## Steve Burger

In response to some of the comments. Our dogs never see a helper/decoy until they are 12-14 months old. All of the prey work foundation is done by the handler. The transition to work on the helper is started utilizing defense drive. 

In terms of the OP posting, my guess would be it is more about the technique the handler is doing with the dog. Another question that came to mind for me is the dog on a harness or a pinch collar? If it is on a harness, you will almost immediately notice more power if you start back-tying the dog on a pinch. This introduces conflict. The same is true of applying some force to the dog while on the tug and back-tie. This could be using a stick or whip, very light kicks, blowing in their face, etc. Conflict + prey drive= Power (fight drive)


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Joby Becker said:


> how much does everyone think that pulling strongly on a ball or tug with the handler has a huge impact on how the dog will respond to good helper work?


I think with some dogs you can screw it up and its best done based on consultation with the helper--otherwise, stick to the food rewards or fetch. I have a ball and tug for one and its never done to promote pulling and thrashing--always calm grip and with the dog coming into me. Of course it also depends on your decoy. The one I consult with hates pulling.  I also don't want to be the source of threat or conflict for my dog.

T


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## Lisa Radcliffe

Joby Becker said:


> how much does everyone think that pulling strongly on a ball or tug with the handler has a huge impact on how the dog will respond to good helper work?


I don't think it has a huge impact but it never hurts imo to keep your dogs mouth in shape by being able to work them yourself they know it's different with the helper than you. Also to teach the behavior so when they work with the helper they have learned without being in drive. But if it is something you are unsure about I would just train with a helper/decoy- Good question.


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## Matt Vandart

I have watched your vids, my opinion is your dog is waiting for you to out her.


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## Timothy Saunders

Matt Vandart said:


> I have watched your vids, my opinion is your dog is waiting for you to out her.


 I agree to much ob


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## Gillian Schuler

Geoff Empey said:


> Well you got me fooled by that, even the title of the thread says teaching the fight. So if you want to have intensity it isn't really about fighting or being rough. It is about playing for the intensity that you seek.
> 
> So "If you want more intensity from your dog you have to be more intense yourself"
> 
> Most of the time the cause for any "deficiency" gets placed at the feet of the dog. And, while that may be the case in some instances, it is usually not the cause for the problem. We need to take a look where it comes from in the first place.
> With that said, pulling / thrashing on the tug = winning has to be based in prey. While defense drive gives us intensity and seriousness, and ultimately a harder bite,. But pulling / thrashing on the tug = winning with intensity as you describe comes from prey, and prey only.
> 
> With few exceptions, problems in any type of bite work result from the fact that the dog is wrestling with some sort of conflict, which interferes with his ability to deal with his prey in a clear fashion.
> 
> 
> No matter how good we are as handlers, interfering with the natural sequence of a game with the dog as a handler, as far as the dog is concerned, will always create some sort of conflict for the dog. I would also like to mention that undue and unfair levels of compulsion during the teaching of these exercises will only add to the conflict. When a situation reminds the dog of one of those conflict causing exercises, her focus will shift away from the prey and again she is wrestling with another issue at a time when she should be concentrating on her prey.


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## Gillian Schuler

I especially agree with the last paragraph - well said.


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## Haz Othman

Matt Vandart said:


> I have watched your vids, my opinion is your dog is waiting for you to out her.


You think she has issues with this? How is it manifesting? It was all taught positively, and I out her several different ways. When Im away from her, with my hand on the string etc I try to keep it random and unpredictable.

As to the OB that was just what I was doing that day not what I always do when I have her play with toys.

I havent backtied her on the pinch though I have started using it on the dead ring with the helper and have noticed more power in the barking. I think Ill give this a shot, one or two misses bite then inside.

When I run her around with the tug in her mouth she chews the hell out of it. Hence why I dont like to use it. I out her when she does that, but I dont think she is making that connection. 

Interesting concept about not messing with how the dog naturally chooses to play. Are you saying any attempt to change this behavior creates conflict?


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## Matt Vandart

I literally think that when she is holding the tug calmly and not fighting, she is being a good dog cos she thinks an 'out' is coming, she is probs sitting there think ffs when's he gonna say out and I get my reward?
I would play two tugs with her for a bit, but instead of outing her from the first tug, just make the other one (the one you have not her) appealing and she will soon start pulling again.


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## Steve Burger

I would personally not try to do what you are doing with a ball. I think it is too much to ask to get proper pulling, grip and out with a ball. With a tug you can manage all of it easier. .


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