# Uk police dog



## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M-piw8rLcnI

Probably his first apprehension.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Looks like he tried to slice a new butt crack in the bad guy! \\/


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

I think so too.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Meh looks like another ass biter


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Bob Scott said:


> Looks like he tried to slice a new butt crack in the bad guy! \\/


 That would need to involves actually putting his teeth into skin, which this dog didnt do.
If he was doing anything around the dudes butt he was sniffing it


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Christopher Jones said:


> That would need to involves actually putting his teeth into skin, which this dog didnt do.
> If he was doing anything around the dudes butt he was sniffing it


Same thing I seen:???:


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I was makin a funny guys! :razz: :wink:
Yea! Hopefully the dog does a better job of scent work. Possibly just a green dog that has never had a bite....still!


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Bob Scott said:


> I was makin a funny guys! :razz: :wink:
> Yea! Hopefully the dog does a better job of scent work. Possibly just a green dog that has never had a bite....still!


Eh? I didnt think mods had a sense of humour or even feelings? Go figure.....


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Christopher Jones said:


> Eh? I didnt think mods had a sense of humour or even feelings? Go figure.....


HEY! I slipped, OK! Forget what I said....or else. :-$:-$:razz: :lol:


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## Pete Stevens (Dec 16, 2010)

That was sad.....if the handler is proud of that, time to transfer to the traffic division. I see a dog with some major issues that need to be addressed such as this dog suitable for this kind of work. It seemed like he didn't want to engage so I don't know if it was his first bite or not. And yes, some first street bites are pretty weak but like someone else said, contact with skin needs to be made in order to call it a "bite".


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Every couple of months video like this appears and the dog in question gets hammered. I don't know the facts in this one but if it was his first real apprehension what was shown is not unusual. Most street dogs that react this way turn out to be just fine. Being as this dog is from the UK, I suspect the training in civil work is lacking from what I hear from the guys over there with all their PC BS they have to deal with. My first PSD first apprehension looked bad but barely broke skin. His second, and subsequent bites were nasty.

Another reason for this issue could be lack of scenario training. Training like it's real usually prevents confusion in the dog when the real thing finally happens. Even then, biting real skin can still bring a different reaction until the dog is reassured that it is OK.


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Howard Knauf said:


> Every couple of months video like this appears and the dog in question gets hammered. I don't know the facts in this one but if it was his first real apprehension what was shown is not unusual. Most street dogs that react this way turn out to be just fine. Being as this dog is from the UK, I suspect the training in civil work is lacking from what I hear from the guys over there with all their PC BS they have to deal with. My first PSD first apprehension looked bad but barely broke skin. His second, and subsequent bites were nasty.
> 
> Another reason for this issue could be lack of scenario training. Training like it's real usually prevents confusion in the dog when the real thing finally happens. Even then, biting real skin can still bring a different reaction until the dog is reassured that it is OK.


 Im not sure its his first bite. Its taken from the "Send in the dogs" tv series and this type of poor bitework is pretty common. And then we have the video of "Pluto" as well which shows a similar thing.
Like someone else the reaction of the handler with him been so happy with what the dog did kinda makes me think this is the norm.


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## Adam Rawlings (Feb 27, 2009)

The dogs in this video looked a little better.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IDiqhkK_ucw&feature=related


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## Patrick Murray (Mar 27, 2006)

The dog was playing. It's up to the handler to get the dog serious. It might save his life one day.


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Yea, if I'm the handler and this isn't his first go at it for real then I'm definately not gonna be happy. Even if it were his first I'd be a bit disappointed at most just like I was with my dog. Some people just expect more than others. Working a PSD is just too damn dangerous to accept mediocrity.


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## Patrick Murray (Mar 27, 2006)

That encounter is a reflection of the training. They have not conveyed to the dog how serious and intense it _must_ be. Then again, I wonder if they have many of the encounters lucky you and your dogs get, Howard. :razz: A couple of nights in the hood with you would bring that dog around!


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

100% agree with you ref the training! Bad guys are bad guys no matter where you are. I'm sure the UK has plenty to go around, especially with all the football matches where green dogs can get lots of experience in short order. The dog looks to be having a ball, not being serious. Something that can be changed. 

My dog had major civil, muzzle and hidden protection work before going on the road. His first real app was under a house at night in the winter time. By the look of the engagement I thought he was killing the guy. It looked like a hairy crocodile all over this guy. Bad guy didn't make a sound and I figured he was high on drugs. Dog finally got through all that clothing and got him on the shoulder blade before he yelled. The next, and subsequent crims weren't so lucky. This dog was only 14 mos old when I got him but he was serious for being so young. Once he figured out he was a good boy for real bites he was a pisser. I had some awesome K9 instructors from Orlando who instilled seriousness upon me from the git go. I've always kept that mentality and it served me well for years to keep me safe.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

I think any of us that have put new dogs out, into the field, have collectively held our breaths until that first real encounter. I'm getting ready to do just that with the 6 I will graduate 3/18. 

DFrost


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

One of the handlers I trained just got his first physical app on a bank robbery suspect with his new partner. Dog made contact three times. Last time was two small punctures. The handler was disappointed like I was with my first. I told him not all dogs are maneaters on the first go round. Still didn't make him feel any better. This guy trains hard and expects alot. Love handlers like that.


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

Howard Knauf said:


> 100% agree with you ref the training! Bad guys are bad guys no matter where you are. I'm sure the UK has plenty to go around, especially with all the football matches where green dogs can get lots of experience in short order. The dog looks to be having a ball, not being serious. Something that can be changed.
> 
> My dog had major civil, muzzle and hidden protection work before going on the road. His first real app was under a house at night in the winter time. By the look of the engagement I thought he was killing the guy. It looked like a hairy crocodile all over this guy. Bad guy didn't make a sound and I figured he was high on drugs. Dog finally got through all that clothing and got him on the shoulder blade before he yelled. The next, and subsequent crims weren't so lucky. This dog was only 14 mos old when I got him but he was serious for being so young. Once he figured out he was a good boy for real bites he was a pisser. I had some awesome K9 instructors from Orlando who instilled seriousness upon me from the git go. I've always kept that mentality and it served me well for years to keep me safe.


Thanks for the post Howard, 
Is your patrol dog a GSD or mali?


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Oluwatobi Odunuga said:


> Thanks for the post Howard,
> Is your patrol dog a GSD or mali?


 That dog has been gone 10 years now. He was a sable GSD Czech import. He was only 74 lbs working weight but very stout, much like a fire plug. Very committed to the bite and loved to fight bad guys. Once he had his first street bite the following ones were just as hard on flesh as equipment. I loved that little dog. My fellow handlers hated catching him because his bite was very hard. His muzzle work was intense as well. He viewed any decoy or bad guy as someone he needed to beat the crap out of. It made keeping his out clean a PITA.


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Howard Knauf said:


> My dog had major civil, muzzle and hidden protection work before going on the road. His first real app was under a house at night in the winter time. By the look of the engagement I thought he was killing the guy. It looked like a hairy crocodile all over this guy. Bad guy didn't make a sound and I figured he was high on drugs. Dog finally got through all that clothing and got him on the shoulder blade before he yelled. The next, and subsequent crims weren't so lucky. This dog was only 14 mos old when I got him but he was serious for being so young. Once he figured out he was a good boy for real bites he was a pisser. I had some awesome K9 instructors from Orlando who instilled seriousness upon me from the git go. I've always kept that mentality and it served me well for years to keep me safe.



I had a very similar experiance as yours with my first K9 on his first apprehension . Sent him on a guy running in a large mall parking lot . Mic was about 100 yards ahead of me and I saw him get a good full mouth bite in the back of the guys thigh . But immediately he bounced off of it like he had been shocked . 

He the had the guy on the ground and in seconds had his shirt and shorts ripped off . By the time I got to them he was dragging the suspect across the lot by his tennis shoe in only his underware . 

The first dog out of my graduating K9 class to get a bite broke the guy's arm on his first apprehension and Mic was expected to be just as good as him . 

I was very disappointed but it was short lived . He could make a mess of them in short order . I use to have to guard the suspect at the hospital because Officers would try to come in and take pictures of the injuries to show everyone else . Not good . 

My current K9 didn't have a problem at all on his first apprehesion . Found the suspect hiding under a mattress and the suspect exploded out from underneath it as Bingo stuck his head under to bite him . The guy tried to jump over him and Bingo caught him in mid air . Bingo hasn't changed much since . He does a good job but doesn't do half the damage Mic ended up doing in his career . Bingo does just what I want. He's had a few damaging bites on guys that chose to put up a big fight but for the most part he just puts 4 holes in them and holds on .


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## Patrick Murray (Mar 27, 2006)

Jim Nash said:


> IThe guy tried to jump over him and Bingo caught him in mid air.


A timeout for a word to the wise. If you're going to jump over a dog who is intent on biting you, cup one hand over the family jewels lest you be de-testiclized. :lol:


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

Thanks Howard and Jim,
Is there a risk of the dog only having access to a protected area on the suspect and the suspect probably beating the dog very badly?
Its funny to see a dog snarling in defense work, hitting so hard in muzzle work and then first apprehension he's confused.
Howard you mentioned he was young when you got him, at what age did he start patrol work?


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

Patrick Murray said:


> A timeout for a word to the wise. If you're going to jump over a dog who is intent on biting you, cup one hand over the family jewels lest you be de-testiclized. :lol:


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

Oluwatobi

All you can do is prepare for the first bite as well as you can. You can try newspaper bites, rubber manaquin body parts and pig skin sleeves but you will never know until the actual moment what is going to happen. K9tec.com has some interesting equipment to prepare you for that moment (thanks greg)


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Oluwatobi Odunuga said:


> Thanks Howard and Jim,
> Is there a risk of the dog only having access to a protected area on the suspect and the suspect probably beating the dog very badly?
> Its funny to see a dog snarling in defense work, hitting so hard in muzzle work and then first apprehension he's confused.
> Howard you mentioned he was young when you got him, at what age did he start patrol work?


Each dog is going to be different . No real answer for you but there's a risk any time you send a dog after a human .

We train in steps , some times during each developemental step you may have to take a step back to tighten things up , be it tug work , bite wedge , sleeve , suit , muzzle , what have you . The real thing is the biggest step of all . It's simply not natural for most dogs to seek out and fight a human .

But I will say this , once the dog does fight someone for real and the dog has what it takes , even if the first one was not all that good , once they make contact there is no better decoy then the real thing . I have never seen a training decoy act like a real suspect that is fighting the dog . No matter how skilled or how hard they try . Real decoys even though they don't catch the dog right or drive the dog like a professional decoy , have the biggest and quickest effect on developing that dog , hands down .


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

real decoys are the best


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Oluwatobi Odunuga said:


> Howard you mentioned he was young when you got him, at what age did he start patrol work?


 Ciro was 14 months old when I got him. Even at that age he scared the crap out of me. Add another 3 months for patrol K9 school and he was barely a year and a half old. Really civil, really nasty, and if you stared at him for more than a few seconds and he didn't know you then you better be ready to move out the way.

My first time training with our unit after I got out of the school....one of our weaker handlers (who felt superior b/c he was prior MWD) decides to catch Ciro on a runoff. I tell him he better make sure the sleeve was available or he'd be sorry cause this dog could give a rats a$$ about equipment. he said "Don't tell me how to catch a dog, boot"...I said ooookaayy. I send the dog on him and the other guy barely has the sleeve showing. Now that I think about it, that was his first real bite LOL! Ciro bit that summbitch right in the back! From that day on Ciro knew that guy was his b!tch. Every time he was out of the car with that guy he'd go over and grab him on the a$$ just to let him know he was there. Man, I miss that little dog.


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

Thanks guys,
It seems there's s a limit to how much we can read dogs, they act one way and you think for sure they will bite and you find out otherwise:-o. For first apprehensions does it make sense to deploy an experienced dog together with the rookie, i know it sounds crazy but i'm wondering if the dog doesn't get it right the first time and puts the officers in danger.


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

jim nash said:


> each dog is going to be different . No real answer for you but there's a risk any time you send a dog after a human .
> 
> We train in steps , some times during each developemental step you may have to take a step back to tighten things up , be it tug work , bite wedge , sleeve , suit , muzzle , what have you . The real thing is the biggest step of all . It's simply not natural for most dogs to seek out and fight a human .
> 
> But i will say this , once the dog does fight someone for real and the dog has what it takes , even if the first one was not all that good , once they make contact there is no better decoy then the real thing . I have never seen a training decoy act like a real suspect that is fighting the dog . No matter how skilled or how hard they try . Real decoys even though they don't catch the dog right or drive the dog like a professional decoy , have the biggest and quickest effect on developing that dog , hands down .


 thanks!!


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Oluwatobi Odunuga said:


> Thanks guys,
> It seems there's s a limit to how much we can read dogs, they act one way and you think for sure they will bite and you find out otherwise:-o. For first apprehensions does it make sense to deploy an experienced dog together with the rookie, i know it sounds crazy but i'm wondering if the dog doesn't get it right the first time and puts the officers in danger.


 There's a novel idea. We actually do dual dog deployments in training. It takes social dogs to do so though. In the U.S. you better have a dang good reason for it though. Not sure about other countries.

You will see a competition between the dogs on the bite. They usually are more vocal and almost play tug o war using the decoy as the tug. Once again though, it's equipment. What happens in real life will probably still be different even with a dual deployment.


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

Howard Knauf said:


> There's a novel idea. We actually do dual dog deployments in training. It takes social dogs to do so though. In the U.S. you better have a dang good reason for it though. Not sure about other countries.
> 
> You will see a competition between the dogs on the bite. They usually are more vocal and almost play tug o war using the decoy as the tug. Once again though, it's equipment. What happens in real life will probably still be different even with a dual deployment.


Thanks yes i was talking about real life deployments.


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Oluwatobi Odunuga said:


> Thanks guys,
> It seems there's s a limit to how much we can read dogs, they act one way and you think for sure they will bite and you find out otherwise:-o. For first apprehensions does it make sense to deploy an experienced dog together with the rookie, i know it sounds crazy but i'm wondering if the dog doesn't get it right the first time and puts the officers in danger.


If you mean having an experianced dog as backup in case the new one fails , I think most agencies simply don't have the number of dogs to do that . I have heard of agencies that use a single purpose tracking dog and have an apprehension dog a ways back in case it's needed . So I don't think your idea is that big of a reach .

We just make sure the new dog and handler have adequate backup . 

We don't train our dogs to work together . I've had 2 occassions where my K9 and another K9 met at the same suspect . Not good .


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

kind of off topic..

I know a hidden sleeve is just another training aid, but there is usually pretty big difference in dogs being trained, from how they bite a normal sleeve or a suit, if it is compared to how they bite the hidden sleeve the first time, if it "attempted" to be used in a somewhat "realistic" manner.

I have seen a ton of supposedly "real dogs" with a lot of training in them, have big problems with hidden equipment on the first bite or two if it is used as a sort of a "test", and have seen others that have absolutely no problem with it..

The first bite is always the most telling of a dog, on hidden equipment, before it becomes part of the regular training regimen, it tells you a good bit about the dog.


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Joby Becker said:


> kind of off topic..
> 
> I know a hidden sleeve is just another training aid, but there is usually pretty big difference in dogs being trained, from how they bite a normal sleeve or a suit, if it is compared to how they bite the hidden sleeve the first time, if it "attempted" to be used in a somewhat "realistic" manner.
> 
> ...


I use a hidden sleeve alot . We all have in the trunks of our squads . We also must use them to certify through the USPCA . It's mostly out of conveniance . I don't have the space or money to buy my own hard sleeve or bitesuit . 

IMO the hidden sleeve is only hidden the first time you use it . After that the dog knows it's there . Yes it might give some dogs trouble at first but for most it still offers alot for the dog to get ahold of and bite and hold without slipping . Plus the decoy damn near shoves it in the dogs mouth in order to protect themselves anyways .

A real bite rarely offers that . If it's an arm it usually is not big enough to fill the dogs mouth like any form of training protection does and if it's something bigger like a leg or torso it's still only made of flesh . That's not near as tough as a linen or jute hidden sleeve .


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Jim Nash said:


> I use a hidden sleeve alot . We all have in the trunks of our squads . We also must use them to certify through the USPCA . It's mostly out of conveniance . I don't have the space or money to buy my own hard sleeve or bitesuit .
> 
> IMO the hidden sleeve is only hidden the first time you use it . After that the dog knows it's there . Yes it might give some dogs trouble at first but for most it still offers alot for the dog to get ahold of and bite and hold without slipping . Plus the decoy damn near shoves it in the dogs mouth in order to protect themselves anyways .
> 
> A real bite rarely offers that . If it's an arm it usually is not big enough to fill the dogs mouth like any form of training protection does and if it's something bigger like a leg or torso it's still only made of flesh . That's not near as tough as a linen or jute hidden sleeve .


I agree 100% Jim...The first time is what I meant..and I know it is a lot different than a real bite.

This thread and the stories of the K9 handlers I do some training with just made me think of it.. it is similar in some ways.. after seeing a dog work in training, and having certain expectations of performance, and then finding out that what you think is going to happen, doesn't always happen...

I watched one of our city K9's have a real problem engaging on a hidden sleeve in my opinion, just a couple weeks ago. It is a dog that was just a detection dog, that they are now training for patrol as well. The dog is not what I would call a very strong dog, and it has not been exposed to training that it should have been (in my opinion)..the handler and dog went through a course in Chicago, almost all sleeve, no muzzle, no hidden, and from what I can tell...LOTS and LOTS of outs and recalls with no rewards.. 

Sometimes they out that dog so much, I wonder if he is gonna even bite the next time...

I was real disappointed when I saw the guy take off the jacket and present the "hidden" sleeve exposed to the dog to get a better bite..

I keep my mouth shut, I am just happy to have a couple extra guys that are available to work my dog and are enthusiastic about doing it...

They have used that dog 2 times on the job for apprehension, first time he barked at a guy in a closet, second time he was a little better, and nipped a few times on a chase.


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