# Suit work last weekend



## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

Hadn't done any suit work since the last video I posted long ago for lack of a helper. Helper is brand new to suit work (my dog is the only one he has worked in a suit) and we're new to suit work as well, so pointers for either side of the equation are welcome. Looking to do PSA, which is why he targets the left bicep only. This was a short session to see/make sure the targeting was still stable after no suit work for many months, and to get the decoy more comfortable with increasing speed/distance catches.

http://youtu.be/5AH14cY_lho


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

I liked it, very nice. 

For some reason I thought you were training schH only.


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## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

Tiago Fontes said:


> I liked it, very nice.
> 
> For some reason I thought you were training schH only.


Thanks! I do train in IPO and probably always will because of the availability of trials/clubs, but am more interested in PSA, and if there were anywhere to train here I'd get into KNPV.

At any rate, any pointers on what to improve with the dog/helper? Any thoughts on exercises (training tomorrow)? The target is very stable even under heavy pressure so I feel like I need to be "advancing" the training but I'm sorta doing suit work all by my lonesome here (only IPO dogs/folks at the club)


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## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

Just my opinion, seems like dejavous as I may have said this on a prior video.
The dog knows all reward comes from the helper and this is making you zero value in his eyes therefore OB is barely there. If you do not change this, i.e, make yourself more valuable the dog will blow you off in a heartbeat (he is already doing this even with corrections). 

There needs to be random rewards coming from you, currently only corrections come from you. If you start rewarding (in protection) your control will improve 10 times as your value will go up and the chances of DQ will reduce. The dog will be eager to get either a reward or release/bite command from you, in short he will pay attention to you and look for your command rather than be in a hurry to leave you.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Just a question here? Are the IPO club helpers deadset against putting a suit on? I was in same position as you for a long time, we just did our suit work after the IPO training was over, and most of the people left..


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## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

Faisal Khan said:


> Just my opinion, seems like dejavous as I may have said this on a prior video.
> The dog knows all reward comes from the helper and this is making you zero value in his eyes therefore OB is barely there. If you do not change this, i.e, make yourself more valuable the dog will blow you off in a heartbeat (he is already doing this even with corrections).
> 
> There needs to be random rewards coming from you, currently only corrections come from you. If you start rewarding (in protection) your control will improve 10 times as your value will go up and the chances of DQ will reduce. The dog will be eager to get either a reward or release/bite command from you, in short he will pay attention to you and look for your command rather than be in a hurry to leave you.


How would you propose rewarding?


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## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

Joby Becker said:


> Just a question here? Are the IPO club helpers deadset against putting a suit on? I was in same position as you for a long time, we just did our suit work after the IPO training was over, and most of the people left..


For the most part yeah, they shy away from suitwork. The guy in the video, while very new to suit work and helper work in general, at least volunteers to do suit work and enjoys doing it.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Hunter Allred said:


> How would you propose rewarding?


a tug or ball or food LOL... j/k


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## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

Hunter Allred said:


> How would you propose rewarding?


With a ball or a tug! If dog will not go for it at first, build drive for it. Have decoy agitate, you heel, when position/focus on you, you release/reward with toy. Will take some sessions but it will increase your value to the dog. You keep an eye on balance, if balance switches more on you then reward with a decoy bite. Right now the balance is 100% decoy, will lead to a DQ in trial.


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## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

Faisal Khan said:


> With a ball or a tug! If dog will not go for it at first, build drive for it. Have decoy agitate, you heel, when position/focus on you, you release/reward with toy. Will take some sessions but it will increase your value to the dog. You keep an eye on balance, if balance switches more on you then reward with a decoy bite. Right now the balance is 100% decoy, will lead to a DQ in trial.


I've done that a bit with my female. My male, in the past, it has not worked quite as well. My male is actually under more control that it probably appears. The focus is 100% on the decoy, but he is still listening to commands. The other exercise we've started working on is the call off... I can send him for a long bite and call him off & recall right before he engages.


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## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

Ok, looks great no need to change anything.


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## manny rose (Jun 3, 2010)

I beleive he is talking about doing some ob for bites. Cant speak for Faisal, but if your lacking control and especially in bitework....start making him heel for 10-15 paces mark good heel send for reward bite. Heel 10 paces give down comand dog downs properly mark reward with send for bite! You get the idea im sure, plenty of ways to mix it up! But the hard part is...in sleeve work it is usually taught to pull on sleeve in sch....but on the suit you want the dog to have a forward pushing grip! It is hard to teach a dog proper suit work with him biting and constantly trying to pull the decoy in. I mean you can get away with it...but ideally you should back up in training to you are a post and your decoy gives bicep bite...when dog engages the bite have decoy start slowly walk backwards and work tension on line so dog has to push forward to stay in the bite...when you let tension off line for dog to counter in bite...you and decoy praise when dog moves forward..slip coat for reward! Keep it very short bites and reward for forward movement only. Eventually you can change pulling behavior. That is main difference from ipo sleeve training and what is done for good suit work. But I think your dog looks good and would probably take to it easily. Thats just my opinion..hope it was understandable!lol


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## manny rose (Jun 3, 2010)

It took a while to write that! Lol


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

manny rose said:


> I beleive he is talking about doing some ob for bites. Cant speak for Faisal, but if your lacking control and especially in bitework....start making him heel for 10-15 paces mark good heel send for reward bite. Heel 10 paces give down comand dog downs properly mark reward with send for bite! You get the idea im sure, plenty of ways to mix it up! But the hard part is...in sleeve work it is usually taught to pull on sleeve in sch....but on the suit you want the dog to have a forward pushing grip! It is hard to teach a dog proper suit work with him biting and constantly trying to pull the decoy in. I mean you can get away with it...but ideally you should back up in training to you are a post and your decoy gives bicep bite...when dog engages the bite have decoy start slowly walk backwards and work tension on line so dog has to push forward to stay in the bite...when you let tension off line for dog to counter in bite...you and decoy praise when dog moves forward..slip coat for reward! *Keep it very short bites* and reward for forward movement only. Eventually you can change pulling behavior. That is main difference from ipo sleeve training and what is done for good suit work. But I think your dog looks good and would probably take to it easily. Thats just my opinion..hope it was understandable!lol


just curious, did you mean distance or duration?


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## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

manny rose said:


> I beleive he is talking about doing some ob for bites. Cant speak for Faisal, but if your lacking control and especially in bitework....start making him heel for 10-15 paces mark good heel send for reward bite. Heel 10 paces give down comand dog downs properly mark reward with send for bite! You get the idea im sure, plenty of ways to mix it up! But the hard part is...in sleeve work it is usually taught to pull on sleeve in sch....but on the suit you want the dog to have a forward pushing grip! It is hard to teach a dog proper suit work with him biting and constantly trying to pull the decoy in. I mean you can get away with it...but ideally you should back up in training to you are a post and your decoy gives bicep bite...when dog engages the bite have decoy start slowly walk backwards and work tension on line so dog has to push forward to stay in the bite...when you let tension off line for dog to counter in bite...you and decoy praise when dog moves forward..slip coat for reward! Keep it very short bites and reward for forward movement only. Eventually you can change pulling behavior. That is main difference from ipo sleeve training and what is done for good suit work. But I think your dog looks good and would probably take to it easily. Thats just my opinion..hope it was understandable!lol


Yeah we are doing that. We are making progress in switching from pulling to pushing. You can hear me in that video tell the decoy to walk backwards, and thats why I ran up to put tension on the line, slack and tell him to bite. I also tell that decoy to always be dramatic and slip the jacket or go to the ground in defeat anytime he feels the dog push into him. You can hear me say "dramatic dramatic!" when he pushed into the decoy aswell. Its difficult trying to juggle both getting the dog and the decoy to do what I want at the same time lol. 

Threw this video together to see the progress made wrt pushing. The last bit from last weekend you can see he pushed the helper backwards a little.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8lxCFlVCHwc


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Hunter Allred said:


> Yeah we are doing that. We are making progress in switching from pulling to pushing. You can hear me in that video tell the decoy to walk backwards, and thats why I ran up to put tension on the line, slack and tell him to bite. I also tell that decoy to always be dramatic and slip the jacket or go to the ground in defeat anytime he feels the dog push into him. You can hear me say "dramatic dramatic!" when he pushed into the decoy aswell. Its difficult trying to juggle both getting the dog and the decoy to do what I want at the same time lol.
> 
> Threw this video together to see the progress made wrt pushing. The last bit from last weekend you can see he pushed the helper backwards a little.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8lxCFlVCHwc


if it was me I wouldnt do sends until the biting behavior is what you want on the suit (counter)...work dog by collar or hold leash real short, stay in there while dog is biting if you have to until you get where you want with it..encourage dog yourself physically to push in works well too, since your decoy is inexperienced.....decoy can also his hand on dogs collar or head to get dog in more, then wiggle, flinch, moan, groan, pet dog up, praise...or whatever satisfies the dog in there...according to your goals


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## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

Joby Becker said:


> if it was me I wouldnt do sends until the biting behavior is what you want on the suit (counter)...work dog by collar or hold leash real short, stay in there while dog is biting if you have to until you get where you want with it..encourage dog yourself physically to push in works well too, since your decoy is inexperienced.....decoy can also his hand on dogs collar or head to get dog in more, then wiggle, flinch, moan, groan, pet dog up...or whatever satisfies the dog in there...


I'm trying to get my decoy to be more dramatic... the dog really loves it when he takes someone down, or when he sees the helper wince or yell in pain. The possession of the sleeve/suit/whatever isn't that big of a deal to him.

As far as the decoy grabbing the collar, you think it would work well to have the decoy push him away as much as he can to get the counter of him pushing back into him? I would envision him pulling him into the suit would make him pull backwards but haven't tried it.

we were mainly doing short sends to give him the full opportunity to target wherever he wished and see if the target remained stable. We will probably go back to back tie as you mentioned as I'm pretty happy with the targeting.

That and we've been doing some work on a barrel sleeve to get his grip better on the suit and that has produced some good results. 

Brings up another question... if the suit/barrel sleeve/hidden sleeve can't be slipped b/c he has a really good grip, how would you "reward" and end the exercise. I don't know if out'ing and taking him away is satisfying enough, but sometimes there is no slipping. Just having the decoy act like he's being torn apart and slink away in defeat while the dog watches?


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## manny rose (Jun 3, 2010)

Sorry, I meant short as far as duration. Like the sessions...keep them short and done properly and I think results will be faster. Short and clear to the dog what actions are being rewarded. Hope that made sense?


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## manny rose (Jun 3, 2010)

I guess i was trying to say similar to you!


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## manny rose (Jun 3, 2010)

Joby Becker said:


> if it was me I wouldnt do sends until the biting behavior is what you want on the suit (counter)...work dog by collar or hold leash real short, stay in there while dog is biting if you have to until you get where you want with it..encourage dog yourself physically to push in works well too, since your decoy is inexperienced.....decoy can also his hand on dogs collar or head to get dog in more, then wiggle, flinch, moan, groan, pet dog up, praise...or whatever satisfies the dog in there...according to your goals[/
> 
> Similar to that!


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## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

manny rose said:


> Sorry, I meant short as far as duration. Like the sessions...keep them short and done properly and I think results will be faster. Short and clear to the dog what actions are being rewarded. Hope that made sense?


Yup. Thanks!


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## kerry engels (Nov 7, 2010)

Faisal Khan said:


> Just my opinion, seems like dejavous as I may have said this on a prior video.
> The dog knows all reward comes from the helper and this is making you zero value in his eyes therefore OB is barely there. If you do not change this, i.e, make yourself more valuable the dog will blow you off in a heartbeat (he is already doing this even with corrections).
> 
> There needs to be random rewards coming from you, currently only corrections come from you. If you start rewarding (in protection) your control will improve 10 times as your value will go up and the chances of DQ will reduce. The dog will be eager to get either a reward or release/bite command from you, in short he will pay attention to you and look for your command rather than be in a hurry to leave you.


At a seminar with Jason Farrish he told me "make it about the ball" I think it was damn good advice. It works well in the higher levels of PSA training to reward on the ball instead of the decoy to keep the dog clean and giving you attention.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

manny rose said:


> Sorry, I meant short as far as duration. Like the sessions...keep them short and done properly and I think results will be faster. Short and clear to the dog what actions are being rewarded. Hope that made sense?


I has similar issues with this dog when switching to the suit...

We opted to make bites longer (2-3-4 minutes), seated calm decoy to keep aggression lower, and really work on the biting behavior. Teaching dog to feel guy inside, and start to desire to feel guy inside, and bite him, not just the suit..

nothing super going on but filmed a couple bites in the really early stages of it... Hunter, pulling away may work, but pushing dog back in is what worked for me, you can see a few times in the vids where dog is backing out of bite to pull, and what we did...I dont think she pulled as much as much as most IPO dogs do, but this approach may help if dog is clean to bicep. Steve (decoy) does a good job at rewarding dog for correct biting..yes the bites are longer and more boring LOL...not much pressure, but that was not the goal... get that mean old GSD biting the guy inside, he will need something under there for sure, or his arm will look like hamburger 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4dEcIif5q8E

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dpwAdTR7o6w

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tE4iCm_-Kk8


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## kerry engels (Nov 7, 2010)

I thought this was a clever way to teach the pushing bite. Decoy seated in a chair that rolls. Dog pushes in, Decoy rolls back. Dog pulls, Decoy holds chair still. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2DTF_zR_jbI


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

kerry engels said:


> I thought this was a clever way to teach the pushing bite. Decoy seated in a chair that rolls. Dog pushes in, Decoy rolls back. Dog pulls, Decoy holds chair still.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2DTF_zR_jbI


nifty idea..logged into memory banks for sure, thanks for sharing


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## David Baker (Aug 31, 2013)

kerry engels said:


> I thought this was a clever way to teach the pushing bite. Decoy seated in a chair that rolls. Dog pushes in, Decoy rolls back. Dog pulls, Decoy holds chair still.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2DTF_zR_jbI



Thats exactly what i was going to suggest.



Hunter, Why not try PSA with your female? From the vids you sent me a while back, i think she would make a great candidate for psa. Jaeger aint shabby himself, i just think Kat would make a great psa dog. Wish you were closer, i would love to work your dogs some. We are working on the same things with Major and he's got the pushing down, we are now just battling something new with him.. he started pushing great, but since he started pushing, he's type writering and going all over the place, Leg-stomach-armpit-bicept-wrist. He's biting everywhere. We'll fix that. jaeger is looking good. As far as control goes, when youre doing the call off like you mentioned, have a tug waiting for him to hit and take as soon as he gets back to you. It should make the process easier and should also speed up his return to you.


Joby- What i saw from your vids is your girl has DEEP grip which i love and also, she's breathing through her nose which is something not all dogs will do. Good for her. Your decoy also knows what he's doing.


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## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

kerry engels said:


> I thought this was a clever way to teach the pushing bite. Decoy seated in a chair that rolls. Dog pushes in, Decoy rolls back. Dog pulls, Decoy holds chair still.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2DTF_zR_jbI


Nice one Kerry!


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## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

David Baker said:


> Thats exactly what i was going to suggest.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


OH don't worry, Katy has her PSA scorebook as well... presently nursing a hind leg soft tissue injury :-(. She would be an awesome PSA dog.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

David Baker said:


> Thats exactly what i was going to suggest.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks...

I had to teach her to breathe through the nose...well not sure if I HAD to, but I did help her start doing it and liking it. She was not doing it in the beginning stages of starting to do bitework... I used to keep her on the Euro Joe red strap of that giant Ray Allen leg tug for 8-10 mintues..blocking off any airflow through the mouth, once she got the hang of it, she goes as full as she can and tries for more, now she rubs her skin off back at the fulcrum a couple bites and her inside cheeks are all red, a few more the get tore up a little


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

Hunter Allred said:


> Hadn't done any suit work since the last video I posted long ago for lack of a helper. Helper is brand new to suit work (my dog is the only one he has worked in a suit) and we're new to suit work as well, so pointers for either side of the equation are welcome. Looking to do PSA, which is why he targets the left bicep only. This was a short session to see/make sure the targeting was still stable after no suit work for many months, and to get the decoy more comfortable with increasing speed/distance catches.
> 
> http://youtu.be/5AH14cY_lho


You have been executively protected. And by the way get rid of that chipmunk that is chirping in the video the whole time. Or am I hearing things again? I could be mental.


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## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

Ben Thompson said:


> You have been executively protected. And by the way get rid of that chipmunk that is chirping in the video the whole time. Or am I hearing things again? I could be mental.


Lol what does that mean? 

The noise was my camera auto focusing. It was shot on a DSLR rather than my camcorder. I thought it was an off camera dog panting at first


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## Daniel Lybbert (Nov 23, 2010)

I would stop kneeling by my dog to start that is for sure. I would also not slip the jacket with my back turned to the dog. The dog knows his target that is for sure. 
To end the exercise you could recall to a tug. Out to a guard and then recall to a tug. you could out guard and drag the dog out to build frustration. I always have a vest on. It has a ball and a tug in it so they are ready when my dog does good I pay him. 
I personally think guys running around acting like a pussy and screaming like a girl while decoying is plain silly. I make the fight worth it but I don't cry for my dogs to be tougher. 
Your decoy seems like he knows what he is trying to do and moves your dog around well.


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

Hunter Allred said:


> Lol what does that mean?
> 
> The noise was my camera auto focusing. It was shot on a DSLR rather than my camcorder. I thought it was an off camera dog panting at first


 If a dog does a good job I figure he executively protects the handler. LOL I'm trying to get used to all the terms. 

Why do you want your dog to push into the bite? You going to be doing police work?


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## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

Ben Thompson said:


> If a dog does a good job I figure he executively protects the handler. LOL I'm trying to get used to all the terms.
> 
> Why do you want your dog to push into the bite? You going to be doing police work?


It's just preferred in PSA


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## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

Daniel Lybbert said:


> I would stop kneeling by my dog to start that is for sure. I would also not slip the jacket with my back turned to the dog. The dog knows his target that is for sure.
> To end the exercise you could recall to a tug. Out to a guard and then recall to a tug. you could out guard and drag the dog out to build frustration. I always have a vest on. It has a ball and a tug in it so they are ready when my dog does good I pay him.
> I personally think guys running around acting like a pussy and screaming like a girl while decoying is plain silly. I make the fight worth it but I don't cry for my dogs to be tougher.
> Your decoy seems like he knows what he is trying to do and moves your dog around well.


It's not to make a dog tougher. Don't think it effects that at all. For the dog that enjoys punishing the helper it is just raising the value of the reward. An indifferent helper is less rewarding.


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> I has similar issues with this dog when switching to the suit...
> 
> We opted to make bites longer (2-3-4 minutes), seated calm decoy to keep aggression lower, and really work on the biting behavior. Teaching dog to feel guy inside, and start to desire to feel guy inside, and bite him, not just the suit..
> 
> ...


 Why do you want your personal protection dogs to push forward in the bite?


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## David Baker (Aug 31, 2013)

Pushing into the bite shows confidence on the bite and in the fight. But in this case specifically, points can be deducted in PSA for pulling. Different in IPO. Its the same in almost every suit sport.


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

David Baker said:


> Pushing into the bite shows confidence on the bite and in the fight. But in this case specifically, points can be deducted in PSA for pulling. Different in IPO. Its the same in almost every suit sport.


Isn't that a technique for captureing a suspect? Bite and push into the bicep to minimize damage to the suspect...basically they are holding the bad guy. Personal protetion dogs are not capturing anyone. Chasing them away....


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## David Baker (Aug 31, 2013)

Ben Thompson said:


> Isn't that a technique for captureing a suspect? Bite and push into the bicep to minimize damage to the suspect...basically they are holding the bad guy. Personal protetion dogs are not capturing anyone. Chasing them away....



A dog does not have to pull to take a suspect to the ground. If youve ever had a live bite, you would agree. And i dont know about you, but my PPD isn't trained to chase someone away. if someone attempted to or succeeded in breaking into my home, i dont want my dog chasing him away. I want him in hand cuffs. Criminals dont learn by getting away, they just change tactics and targets. I dont know what the law is where you live, but in NC, if someone is breaking into your home, they are fair game. Be it by dog or by gun. My hope is that the screams wake me up in time to handle the situation. 

As far as PSD's go, they are trained to hold the suspect until an officer arrives to cuff. They are suppose to be trained to bite and hold with a calm grip to reduce damage to the suspect, so no head shaking and thrashing (the head shaking happens every day). Excessive force cases are normally won in court when the dog was used in a situation that the dog shouldve never been deployed, rarely by how bad the bite was. K9 officers are told to take the pictures of the wound AFTER the medic has cleaned it up, never before, just for this reason.


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

David Baker said:


> A dog does not have to pull to take a suspect to the ground. If youve ever had a live bite, you would agree. And i dont know about you, but my PPD isn't trained to chase someone away. if someone attempted to or succeeded in breaking into my home, i dont want my dog chasing him away. I want him in hand cuffs. Criminals dont learn by getting away, they just change tactics and targets. I dont know what the law is where you live, but in NC, if someone is breaking into your home, they are fair game. Be it by dog or by gun. My hope is that the screams wake me up in time to handle the situation.
> 
> As far as PSD's go, they are trained to hold the suspect until an officer arrives to cuff. They are suppose to be trained to bite and hold with a calm grip to reduce damage to the suspect, so no head shaking and thrashing (the head shaking happens every day). Excessive force cases are normally won in court when the dog was used in a situation that the dog shouldve never been deployed, rarely by how bad the bite was. K9 officers are told to take the pictures of the wound AFTER the medic has cleaned it up, never before, just for this reason.


 I want my dog chasing him away. My dog is alone while I am at work...I'm home at different points to check on things but the dog is working alone. A dog that doesn't let go will be beaten or choked to death. Polce dogs are working often just feet away from their handlers. Thats a different dog and a different job in my opinion.


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## David Baker (Aug 31, 2013)

My dog is kenneled when no one is home. Ive got an alarm to help protect my house and belongings. My dog is to protect my family, not so much my possessions. they can always be replaced, family can not. If he's getting a bite, me or my wife are home and both of us are armed to diffuse the situation one way or another. Im away many weekends so Major is here to protect her while im gone. If no one is home and they get by my alarm system, ive got insurance to replace the things that aren't in my safe. 

We just have different purposes for our dogs. 

Subject at hand, it is preferred for a dog to push than pull in most venues.


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## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

Ben Thompson said:


> I want my dog chasing him away. My dog is alone while I am at work...I'm home at different points to check on things but the dog is working alone. A dog that doesn't let go will be beaten or choked to death. Polce dogs are working often just feet away from their handlers. Thats a different dog and a different job in my opinion.


Have you ever been bitten for real by a real dog?


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## David Baker (Aug 31, 2013)

Oh, i missed that part in your last post about a dog that doesn't let go, Ben. I DEFINITELY do not want a dog who is GOING to let go. No way. I dont want him to let go until i pull him off myself. A dog that just lets go b/c the person stops fighting is weak IMO. I dont want that. he had better stay on that bite. How about this.. The dog lets go b/c in his mind, the guy gave up or the fight is over. Dude gets up, finds a weapon or gains access to his own weapon, and your dog is just standing there. What do you think that guy is going to do? Run? Hell no. He is definitely going to kill your dog. If not then, he'll leave and come back another day, prepared for your dog. F that. The dog needs to stay in the fight. Thats why we train the dog to continue fighting a static decoy on the ground. He had better act like a hyena on zebra or I'm getting selling his ass as a pet dog. My dog aint no sport dog. He has no bark and hold and never will. Thats a sure fire way of having a dead dog.


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

David Baker said:


> Oh, i missed that part in your last post about a dog that doesn't let go, Ben. I DEFINITELY do not want a dog who is GOING to let go. No way. I dont want him to let go until i pull him off myself. A dog that just lets go b/c the person stops fighting is weak IMO. I dont want that. he had better stay on that bite. How about this.. The dog lets go b/c in his mind, the guy gave up or the fight is over. Dude gets up, finds a weapon or gains access to his own weapon, and your dog is just standing there. What do you think that guy is going to do? Run? Hell no. He is definitely going to kill your dog. If not then, he'll leave and come back another day, prepared for your dog. F that. The dog needs to stay in the fight. Thats why we train the dog to continue fighting a static decoy on the ground. He had better act like a hyena on zebra or I'm getting selling his ass as a pet dog. My dog aint no sport dog. He has no bark and hold and never will. Thats a sure fire way of having a dead dog.


Obviously you want some degree of courage in a dog but to what degree is debateable. Depending on the type of work one is doing.


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

Hunter Allred said:


> Have you ever been bitten for real by a real dog?


Yes....


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Ben Thompson said:


> Why do you want your personal protection dogs to push forward in the bite?


Ok Ben Ill bite...

First off I have already said repeatedly on here that I dont really view my current dogs as personal protection dogs.

That being said, I am fairly confident that the current adult and the puppy when she is old enough, could fairly easily fill that role if needed.

I view a pushing grip as a dog wanting to fill its mouth as much as possible, instead of just being happy with what they initially get ahold of..

The question I guess I would ask is why would I not want a pushing grip? 



Ben Thompson said:


> Isn't that a technique for captureing a suspect? Bite and push into the bicep to minimize damage to the suspect...basically they are holding the bad guy. Personal protetion dogs are not capturing anyone. Chasing them away....


according to who? that is what I call a WATCH dog...if the guy runs away fine...what if he doesnt? what does the dog do then? herd him out of the house, with a good ankle nip?

trust me Ben, IF my dogs are allowed to engage a person for real, it is time to BITE and FIGHT...I could give two shits if they out or not at that time either...otherwise I would not allow them to engage...



Ben Thompson said:


> I want my dog chasing him away. My dog is alone while I am at work...I'm home at different points to check on things but the dog is working alone. A dog that doesn't let go will be beaten or choked to death. Polce dogs are working often just feet away from their handlers. Thats a different dog and a different job in my opinion.


Ben what if the guy doesnt run away? does the dog then back off? or hide from the guy? again you are describing what a *watch dog* is to me... or is he supposed to bite and then let go and see if the guy will run away??? seriously I am confused here...

in the situation with no one home ...it still breaks down in my mind to *watch dog* or *guard dog/property protection dog* then...

the dog either barks and huffs and puffs an scares the guy away, and that is all he is expected to do (watch dog), or he is expected to actually physically engage if the person doesnt get scared off (guard dog)...

same principle with protection dogs and watch dogs, in my mind anyhow..

pleas explain...

sounds like you want the dog to just scare the guy off...what if he is not scared? or are you saying the dog should just bite, and then let go and see if the person will then run away???

as to why I like a full pushing grip in general, I am kinda picky about what impresses me as a good bite, and biting behavior period.. I try to get the best behavior I can, for what I like...


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Dunno if anyone has mentioned this and you may well know, if the decoy puts the suit top on backwards, it's way easier to slip it especially on the ground.


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## Mark Herzog (Aug 22, 2013)

David Baker said:


> Oh, i missed that part in your last post about a dog that doesn't let go, Ben. I DEFINITELY do not want a dog who is GOING to let go. No way. *I dont want him to let go until i pull him off myself.* A dog that just lets go b/c the person stops fighting is weak IMO. I dont want that. he had better stay on that bite. How about this.. The dog lets go b/c in his mind, the guy gave up or the fight is over. Dude gets up, finds a weapon or gains access to his own weapon, and your dog is just standing there. What do you think that guy is going to do? Run? Hell no. He is definitely going to kill your dog. If not then, he'll leave and come back another day, prepared for your dog. F that. The dog needs to stay in the fight. Thats why we train the dog to continue fighting a static decoy on the ground. He had better act like a hyena on zebra or I'm getting selling his ass as a pet dog. My dog aint no sport dog. He has no bark and hold and never will. Thats a sure fire way of having a dead dog.


I'm not a big fan of the single full bite that never releases and just sinks in. I know the theory that it is the most devastating way for the dog to engage but in the few "real" encounters I've witnessed and the many I've discussed with others, the reality was that the dogs fight by making multiple, repeated and quick strikes. Some are "close" to full bites while others are tearing slashes, ripping skin and muscle and doing more damage to more places on the body than a single full bite that never lets go.

To suggest that a dog that "let's go" is giving up on the fight is ludicrous... there is no reason that the dog can't "let go" and immediately re-engage, over and over. Why can't the dog move it's point of attack and engage multiple places on the body as they become available? This makes it harder to grab the dog or strike the dog and creates multiple wounds... in my opinion it is much more difficult to actually fight a dog that works this way.

I would agree that a dog that let's go and leaves the fight is useless to me... but a dog that won't quit fighting is the key, not the "letting go".

Just my opinion


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

I believe a 'deep calm holding bite' is encouraged for liability reasons.


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## David Baker (Aug 31, 2013)

Mark Herzog said:


> I'm not a big fan of the single full bite that never releases and just sinks in. I know the theory that it is the most devastating way for the dog to engage but in the few "real" encounters I've witnessed and the many I've discussed with others, the reality was that the dogs fight by making multiple, repeated and quick strikes. Some are "close" to full bites while others are tearing slashes, ripping skin and muscle and doing more damage to more places on the body than a single full bite that never lets go.
> 
> To suggest that a dog that "let's go" is giving up on the fight is ludicrous... there is no reason that the dog can't "let go" and immediately re-engage, over and over. Why can't the dog move it's point of attack and engage multiple places on the body as they become available? This makes it harder to grab the dog or strike the dog and creates multiple wounds... in my opinion it is much more difficult to actually fight a dog that works this way.
> 
> ...


The last paragraph u wrote was what I meant. My dog transfers bits to the threat arm. Totally acceptable. I didnt mean it cant let go at all. I meant lets go and allows the person to escape.


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## David Baker (Aug 31, 2013)

Matt Vandart said:


> I believe a 'deep calm holding bite' is encouraged for liability reasons.


Yes. A deep calm bone breaking bite doesn't look like a mauling. A typewriter bite does.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Mark Herzog said:


> I would agree that a dog that let's go and leaves the fight is useless to me... but a dog that won't quit fighting is the key, not the "letting go".
> 
> Just my opinion


this is the key...for me as well..

it is all hypothetical and a matter of preference..most PP dogs will never need to be utilized,,,

I have had both types of dogs actually engage people, and bite them... either way will do the job...

the dogs that lets go easier, in my opinion would be better for more than one person obviously...kept on leash could be formidable barrier to get through....

either one, its still a dog, susceptible to the same things as the other..

for me it is a matter of preference that I like the hold...I am very lucky to not have been sued civilly in one occasion, a guy was drunk and fell asleep in my car, I opened door and dogs jumped in, I closed door...I did not know he was in there, and by the time I was able to get the dog off of the guy, he was pretty tore up, 6-7 bites and tears..

for me it is more about liability..I dont need a dog to shred a guy, just keep him busy.

either way..unless the guy is an assassin, or a a team with major goals and plans, anyone who fights either style dog and wins, is still gonna be pretty messed up, and not going to be thinking about robbing you still I dont think...plus you should be gone, or in the fight, or have a weapon with you.


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## Chip Blasiole (Jun 7, 2006)

I just got a chance to look at the first video. It looks like definite improvement in the dog and the different decoy from the one I saw on the other forum months ago. You might consider doing some different type of obedience before the bite such as heeling with the dog, having him do a sit or down in motion and walking away to see what kind of control you have as your area of influences decreases. Also, you will not be sitting next to the dog in a trial. The dogs looks strong, so I don't see the need to slip the suit at this point. By doing so much slipping with a dog like yours at his age, it is really no different than slipping a sleeve, and the dog is becoming more focused on the suit as a prey object rather than being man focused. That might not be a goal for you, but I would have the dog working on man focus. You could have the decoy in the suit holding a sleeve with a bite bar in both hands, send the dog, slip the sleeve and get the dog to spit the sleeve and come back on the decoy on the suit. Then out the dog on the suit, but without the decoy going to the ground and maybe do some guarding and tranporting and then an escape bite or attack on the handler. I don't think your dog needs that much acting from the decoy and he could then focus on reading the dog more and responding to him rather than focusing on what his preplanned moves will be.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

I just watched this video. I did not see the other one, so I dont know how to say it compares to the first one, but I will comment on what I saw here in this one. I watched it on my phone so it was hard to see in great detail. It looks like the decoy is constantly walking backwards, instead of making the dog "push" him backwards. In other words at times it looked like he was actually dragging the dog as the decoy walked backwards. Some of the time the dog was pushing him for sure, but I did see some times when it looked like the dog was trying to pull but the decly was just walking backwards and the dog was along for the ride. 
Your decoy has the right idea (always have the dog go forward in the dogs direction of travel) but remind him that the dog has to "push" him, he doesn't drag the dog along. Someone mentioned using a roller chair ( I didnt watch that video), but I do that a lot here, especially with puppies (6-10 months or so) to teach them to always push and it keeps the target location (bicep) at a height that makes it a little easier for them to learn the behavior we want. 
Have your decoy target the dog to the right tricep on a back bite, then he can go down on his hands and knees and reward the dog when he pushes in by letting the dog push him that way. This way the dog can get a little more power and leverage because all four of his feet are on the ground, and he will learn to push better, also the decoy can be more rigid if the dog tries to pull and the decoy is less likely to be pulled off balance which would accidentally reward the dog for pulling.


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

Hunter Allred said:


> Hadn't done any suit work since the last video I posted long ago for lack of a helper. Helper is brand new to suit work (my dog is the only one he has worked in a suit) and we're new to suit work as well, so pointers for either side of the equation are welcome. Looking to do PSA, which is why he targets the left bicep only. This was a short session to see/make sure the targeting was still stable after no suit work for many months, and to get the decoy more comfortable with increasing speed/distance catches.
> 
> http://youtu.be/5AH14cY_lho


First of all,,,,i think thats a really good dog. I'm careful not to say a great dog but if i owned him i'd be proud. Even with your supposed little experience with suit training he's going in fast and maintaining a full grip.
I am probably far less experienced than you are but it seems the KNPV guys do a good job of getting the dogs to have a full grip, It might be helpful to watch some KNPV training. Ivo Hoevers on youtube does a lot of good videos with Malis and shepherds alike.

Thanks for sharing the video...


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## Chip Blasiole (Jun 7, 2006)

Re: the countering forward, when trying to teach a dog to counter forward on a bicep bite, I like to take a few steps back to show the dog that you want him going forward, and then stopping while the handler puts some back pressure on the leash and then giving slack, which becomes a cue for the dog to counter forward. That is a good time for the decoy to do a bit of acting and sounding like the dog is hurting him. Then a few steps back, back presure, slack, counter, etc. After the dog starts learning, fade more into the dog doing more pushing and the decoy doing less backward movement unless the dog is pushing him.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Your decoy, as mentioned is missing some nuances. Pay to get him to a seminar, with you. Let him work the dog and learn in front of instructors that are involved in the sport. Guys that have titled dogs and decoyed for titled dogs. Nuances. They don't come across well except in person. 

The nuances cleaned up will make a huge difference in how the dog looks. IE you have a good picture now. Great is what you are shooting for.

Good luck!!


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## David Baker (Aug 31, 2013)

Hunter. U and your decoy should attend the Chico stanford and ron Marshall seminar the weekend of feb 15-16 in maryland. I'm going and it's worth the drive. They are 2 trainers that are on top of the game. Mike suttle will agree with that. And Mike is among the elite as well. If u want more details, pm me.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

David Baker said:


> Hunter. U and your decoy should attend the Chico stanford and ron Marshall seminar the weekend of feb 15-16 in maryland. I'm going and it's worth the drive. They are 2 trainers that are on top of the game. Mike suttle will agree with that. And Mike is among the elite as well. If u want more details, pm me.


suit work?


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## David Baker (Aug 31, 2013)

Suit, sleeve, civil, almost every aspect of training. Go to www.chicostanford.com check his resume out. He's amazing.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

David Baker said:


> Suit, sleeve, civil, almost every aspect of training. Go to www.chicostanford.com check his resume out. He's amazing.


 Chico and Ron are both very good at what they do! I know them and like them both a lot. That should be a great seminar for sure.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Pretty sure Hunter is trying to do PSA, not IPO...



Dave Colborn said:


> Your decoy, as mentioned is missing some nuances. Pay to get him to a seminar, with you. Let him work the dog and learn in front of instructors that are involved in the sport. Guys that have titled dogs and decoyed for titled dogs. Nuances. They don't come across well except in person.
> 
> The nuances cleaned up will make a huge difference in how the dog looks. IE you have a good picture now. Great is what you are shooting for.
> 
> Good luck!!


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## Alison Grubb (Nov 18, 2009)

Ron doesn't just do IPO. He will do suit work. He's worked my dogs on the suit. He's not a one trick pony. 8) Chico is awesome as well. I wish I could make it to that seminar.

Hunter, you should also look into attending a PSA seminar with your decoy or even a decoy camp. Both of you will learn a ton and it will be well worth your time. If possible, get your decoy to one with Sean Siggins. I know there will be one in NC in the coming months...I think April but don't quote me on that.


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