# Whats wrong with this picture?



## Brad Doerle (Nov 8, 2010)

Ok, no picture, but I will try to capture video of the behavior at the field on the next session.

The issue I'm curious about is with a 17 MO shepherd no wanting to bite the object offered by the decoy and rather go after decoy. She began table/defense work at about 11 months old. The litter from this particual line seems to be slowly maturing.

The background;
On the field she had a good alert, but seemed to not really have motivation or desire to bite the object offered (Rag, Pillow, mini sleeve/Wedge). She would circle me (handler), pull out in front and bark. She would lunge towards the object and then want to sniff it, occassionaly she would punch the decoy in the groin. When the object becomes dead in motion she almost instantly looses interest. we rotate on and off the table every couple of weeks. The table work seems to get her focusing a bit more

Fast forward;
Last night training session involved her up on the table, decoy never made it close enough to the dog to flank or pinch or sting with the whip without some serious aggitation from the dog. Tail was up and wagging, she looks off of the table for me, but doesn't back away from confrontation with the decoy, she will pull towards the decoy, even as he advances towards the table. The decoy approached table with the puppy rag, she grabbed the rag a couple times and spits it right out.

What set that particual session apart was the intensitivity was one of the snaps at the decoy. She was able to knick part of the decoys hand a bit and she seemed to use much more force effort with that bite than she would an object in the way.

Is it possible to have a dog thats only interested in the decoy and not the object offered, or should the dog be interested in whatever she gets her teeth on?
Is there a positive way to mark the behaviour on the table from a distance that can help promote the aggitated state with the decoy?
Is there a way to mark the behaviour to get her to latch on to the object and not let go?
Is there nothing wrong with this and just be patient and wait for the dog to get older and pray its not a lost cause?

Any advice critism or questions welcomed;

Thanks
Brad


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Hi Brad, i thought the general rule in polite society was that discussing table training on a dog forum was kind like discussing the benefits of nazi philosophy on a sociology forum.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

So you started an 11 month old GSD puppy from slow maturing lines on defense/table work and you are wondering why she's not into the object 6 months later? Hmmm.... :-k :roll: What are your goals with this dog? If you want a sport dog, train it like a sport dog: prey prey prey, slowwwwww gradual addition of presence and pressure especially if she's not from real strong lines, and if you must do defense/table work, wait til the dog is mature and can handle it, if at all.


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## Timothy Saunders (Mar 12, 2009)

hey Brad , you seem to be new to this type of work. I don't think that you should be doing this type of work with your young dog. Your dog did what you taught her to do. People do table work with dogs because they saw it somewhere and have no knowledge of it's uses,results or purpose. You could very easily ruin or bring to the forefront apart of the character you don't like. jmho


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## Lisa Brazeau (May 6, 2010)

I wish there was a 'Like' button.......


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## Brad Doerle (Nov 8, 2010)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> Hi Brad, i thought the general rule in polite society was that discussing table training on a dog forum was kind like discussing the benefits of nazi philosophy on a sociology forum.


 
Was that the rule of thumb around here? Sorry. For the more PC I can adjust my post to reflect it as Nightstand or kitchen counter training.

Long story short, I'm intersted in marking the behaviour of the bite directed towards the object as positive... regardless of who won WWII and why.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Stop working her in defense and/or on the table. I'd guess you are creating a VERY civil fear biter. She isn't interested in "playing" she is WAY too serious. Table work can be effective if done by someone that knows what they're doing. Putting a young dog
(11months) on a table and flanking and flicking with a whip is
asking for trouble :-(


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

If it helps hitler lost so logically that makes table training for losers lol

anyway man can't helps ya with the training, keyboard warrior only here.


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## Brad Doerle (Nov 8, 2010)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Stop working her in defense and/or on the table. I'd guess you are creating a VERY civil fear biter. She isn't interested in "playing" she is WAY too serious. Table work can be effective if done by someone that knows what they're doing. Putting a young dog
> (11months) on a table and flanking and flicking with a whip is
> asking for trouble :-(


In all honesty I am fairly new to this.

Thomas,
Your second sentence is a good observation.

I'm not opposed to taking her off of the table and resuming on the field in pray drive, and I appreciate the feedback.

What would be the way you would transition a particual level of intensitivty from civil to play though?


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Yeah dude its only about being PC, nothing to do with shit training methods. sounds like me n you are newbs both, only difference is i didn't fall for discredited training methods n am in an advanced stage of owning a dog f# cked by handler stupidity.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

Brad
-- good advice already posted 
get your table trainer on here to spell out what they were trying to do on the table with you and your dog and how they connected it to the field work issues

but since it sounds like you were doing some club work and the dog wasn't showing much interest, maybe that is because it isn't cut out for that and you should try another sport, cause it sure looks from here (without a vid or pic) that you might be taking your dog in the wrong direction

it's a lot easier to create a fear biter than fix one .... it aint all genetics when it comes to that behavior

- sure hope you are reading your dog correctly and that it is enjoying this


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## Brad Doerle (Nov 8, 2010)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> Yeah dude its only about being PC, nothing to do with shit training methods. sounds like me n you are newbs both, only difference is i didn't fall for discredited training methods n am in an advanced stage of owning a dog f# cked by handler stupidity.


 
And I can type better than you... j/k

Tim, Thanks for your PM, I understand.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Brad u seem like an honest guy, hope yr smart enough and man enough to fix the damage you have caused yr dog.

plenty of people here to help, good luck.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

Brad
is table training part of your club's routine ? imo it can be used effectively to build confidence, but not prey drive

transition from civil to play ??

anyway, ever hear of a flirt pole ?
how much time did you/your club use a FP ?? with what types of lures ?? how did your pup respond ?? 

btw, it's not pray drive unless your dog is religious, and if you think your spelling is better than Peter's u need a better spellchecker


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Brad Doerle said:


> In all honesty I am fairly new to this.
> 
> Thomas,
> Your second sentence is a good observation.
> ...


How does she do when she's just playing tug with you? Start there where there should be the least amount of stress (should being the key word). Video tape it and post it if you like. Then you can go back to prey items with an encouraging to neutral helper with the flirt pole and rag or fleece toy, then tugs that get larger, bite wedge, puppy sleeve, training sleeve, etc. Don't rush the foundation. An 11 month old puppy is like an 11 year old kid. Not ready for the serious stuff. Now that she's a bit older than that, you need to go back and let it just be you playing tug with her in a fun way. Ignore the temptation to "work" your own dog if you're new to this because an experienced helper is going to be more valuable. Just keep the tug play low key and fun. There's nothing inherently wrong with using a table either, particularly if it's just essentially an elevated back tie with a tie out. Can be great for working grips and such in a pretty low stress prey sort of way. It's how the helper uses it.

Don't think of it as "bad" that you need to go back into foundation. Unless you have a truly "finished" dog (one might argue that they don't exist?), foundation is key. Almost any seminar you go to, the person giving the seminar will say that exact thing to point out the lack of foundation many people have in their dogs (I have holes in my dog's foundation, I know this). The key is to know it and work through it.


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

I agree this dog doesn't sound like it's needs or is ready for table training.

Prey, prey and more prey.

Will the dog chase on a attempted excape from the helper?

Will the dog bite a tug held by the helper?

At seven months I was told my dog wasn't cut out for Schutzhund, lack of interest for the tug while being held by the helper. I didn't give up and used a different helper. In one session the second helper got the dog to bite the tug, soon the dog was enjoying it and was excelling in bite work, even better than most working GSD in the club.

This pic was taken about 4 months after being told my dog may not be cut out for SchH for lack on interest in the helper.



The point is to not give up, maybe try a different helper. Sometimes helpers come on too strong/dominant, a young dog needs to believe he can kick some ass, then and only then pressure is added, slowly.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Is this the same White GSD that you said had confidence issues last November (2010)?

What does Ed R. say about the dog, if you are still working with him.


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Whats wrong with the picture in so far as I can tell is you are working a puppy who isn't ready for pressure. Keep doing that and that dog will fall apart on you. The table part of it has nothing to do with it. You can ruin a puppy on the ground just as easy as one on a table.


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