# Grim ER Vet



## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

This morning I took Grim (now 8) to the Emergency Vet Clinic because something seemed profoundly wrong (not interested in food or ball and whining) and the vet diagnosed constipation (no signs of an obstruction - as tight as his belly was I feared bloat and it was sudden onset but no bloat.) -- 

Tramadol, stool softeners, a drug for motility and getting him to eat pumpkin - he sent us home and the digital exam broke up some of it and he went while we were there......but he said there seemed to be a lot of backed up feces. Strange - he has been going. But he said there would be more evidence if there was a blockage.

However, he also noticed an anomaly with the spleen and they are going to work us in for an ultrasound tomorrow. So my first though straight on is hemangiosarcoma.

He said there are spleenic tumors that are not cancerous and that it was a good sign his blood panel was perfect, (other than slight glucose elevation but he said that was probably from stress of being x-rayed and the pain) ......Well we take it one day at a time. 

Right now he seems groggy from the tramadol (he gave him a shot) but he did heat half a can of pumkin and his stool softener and I am just keeping him with me all day.

So I may be struggling with what to do / how to process what I will hear tomorrow. FWIW he also appears to have benign prostate hyperplasia and some spondylosis mid spine but he said it was all in normal range for his age.


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## Dave Martin (Aug 11, 2010)

Sorry to hear all that, Nancy. I can't offer any medical opinion but I hope tomorrow's results aren't too serious and Grim makes a quick and full recovery. Keep us posted.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

It sucks to have to "wait" and find out what's going on with something like that.
Fingers, toes and eyes crossed!


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Aw man, sorry Nancy. I hope he is feeling better soon, let us know what you find out.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

They are calling me this am with an appt to do the ultrasound.

The original issue seems resolved with pumpkin and a motility drug. He is back to "normal" in that regard and playful etc. Of course he is still on the tramadol. And the bigger concern is the spleen.

The vet was optimistic that since the bloodwork was perfect that if there is anything it is real early. Of course I realize if it is hemagiosarcoma we are hosed. But we can take it one day at a time.


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## Jennifer Michelson (Sep 20, 2006)

So sorry that you are having to worry and wait. I hope for the best and that the anomaly is not the worst. I have had to take several suspicious (black colored) lumps off of Griffin over the last 2 years and always think cancer...so far benign. Hoping for the best with Grimm.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

I sure hope so. I was hoping to be able to retire him next year and just enjoy him. He is "my bud"

Back to normal 100% this morning and very irate that he has not had breakfast. He keeps running into the office, poking me and whining, and running into his crate and rattling his bowl around.

Will update as soon as we get the ultrasound (they should be calling me any minute to schedule)


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

APPT is tomorrow at 11am.
I asked for more clarification.

He believes the spleen is enlarged because of the rotation of the stomach on the x-ray and it does not have the normal appearance on the floor of the abdomen. Of course he was hunched up on pain on the table

I did have a teammate tell me her dog also had an enlarged spleen after a gastro upset [and we have also had major tick issues this year everywhere we go and that can do things too] . At the onset of his problems I had given him two gas-x as I was loading him up to go to the vet.....so I don't know if he had started to bloat or what. 

Offered him food (since they moved us to tomorrow) and he ate with gusto.


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

hoping for Grim (and you!) to get good news tomorrow.

sounds like he's about like my Ikon--7 a.m. is breakfast, and if i think i'd like to sleep til 8, well, FORGET THAT!!! i have a black snout in my face, under my chin, maybe a tongue-swipe or 2, and if all else fails, a fricking big-a$$ paw to the upper body...


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Hi Nancy, I hope it's good news and am keeping positive thoughts for you and your buddy, Grim.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

So here is the update



Grim does, in fact, have an enlarged and somewhat granular spleen with no sign of any tumor. There are also no signs of tumors anywhere. 



His prostate is very enlarged and impairing his ability to defecate so fixing that (neutering him) is NOW. He does not see cancerous changes there.



He did not think there was a tick borne or other issue but is sending (at my request) a sample to the NC lab. Wow $250 but he does not recommend doxycline without known cause.



I liked the guy - we talked about the prostate and the spondylosis and said both could be responsible for slowing him down (of course this summer has been wicked hot too, and a blast of cool air perks him up). He is not into NSAIDS and was supportive of both fish oil and turmeric. So I am working on an anti=inflammatory regime for that.



We are going back in 3 months for a quick re-check on the ultrasound.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

So you are neutering now, right?


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Calling today to make the appt.


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

sounds like a plan, and at least it wasn't devastating news. and the vet sounds like a keeper!


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Wish he was - it was like that in Charlotte - THE best vets seem to be associated with the animal emergency hospitals!

So I plan on going back to him for a follow up ultrasound but the regular vet will neuter him on Friday morning. Least I know the blood panel is all good.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Sounds pretty hopeful to me!


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

Nancy Jocoy said:


> THE best vets seem to be associated with the animal emergency hospitals!/QUOTE]
> 
> well, i guess that's where we'd like 'em to be anyway.....the best surgeon i ever worked with came from an e-hospital, and i believe she went back when she left us. i would've been happy to work with her my entire life <sigh>.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

I will have to come up with a good strategy for the spondylosis. I know turmeric is both anti-inflammatory and has anti-cancer properties but have seen nothing on how to dose a dog and how to determine strength etc. ((I just buy it from the Indian Grocer-but I could buy pills or make capules)

Going to up to TWO fish oils as day.

Vet suggested saw palmetto (I gather for the prostate) and something else I can't pronounce. Once again though it was in passing and I don't have a regimen....but I know the regular vet will just want to give NSAIDS - which I won't. He does not seem impaired by the spondylosis. Vet said he is about where any dog his size, age, and activity level would be with it.

I realize just the fact the spleen is "off" may be a precursor but we will see what NC State says.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Nancy, can I ask why you are adamant you will not give NSAIDs, but you give Tramadol ?

I have just recently concluded that tramadol makes my dog a little psychotic. I had him on a regular dose for a few months then weaned him off to the occasional dose if/when I interpret he is exhibiting pain.

Hope you get your boy sorted however you do it.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Nancy Jocoy said:


> Going to up to TWO fish oils as day.


How much fish oil per how many dog pounds?

Two 1-gram gelcaps (1000 mg each) is a therapeutic dose for a 20-pound dog, IMHO.



ETA
Tramadol has nowhere near the side effect event percentage of NSAIDs. OTOH, Tramadol has a much different effect (NSAIDs being, as implied, anti-inflammation meds). It's a pain reliever only, with a pretty rare narcotic-type effect.

NSAIDs have their place, IMO, but only with careful pre-testing, careful instruction about what to look for as symptoms of GI distress, and regular bloodwork during the protocol.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Connie Sutherland said:


> How much fish oil per how many dog pounds?
> 
> Two 1-gram gelcaps (1000 mg each) is a therapeutic dose for a 20-pound dog, IMHO.
> 
> ...


So that would mean 5+ of my 1400mg pills. Wow. How did you figure the number of 2000mg for a 20lb dog?


I figured [(76lb dog/20lb dog)*(2000mg for a20lb dog)]/(1400mg/pill)=5.5pills

http://www.amazon.com/Spring-Valley-Strength-Enteric-Softgels/dp/B002T9ZGGS

Any suggestions for good brands? This is what I bought for the dogs


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Nancy Jocoy said:


> So that would mean 5+ of my 1400mg pills. Wow. How did you figure the number of 2000mg for a 20lb dog?
> 
> 
> I figured [(76lb dog/20lb dog)*(2000mg for a20lb dog)]/(1400mg/pill)=5.5pills
> ...



Many authoritative sources suggest an average of a gram (1000 mg) per ten pounds of dog. Some say a gram per twenty pounds of dog as a kind of standard dose, with an increase for specific anti-inflammation purposes.

Of course, this is extremely generic dosing. Shawn Messonnier, DVM (he wrote _The Allergy Solution for Dogs_, among many books) and Doctors Foster & Smith, and most derm specialists make recommendations that specify EPA and DHA amounts rather than just "fish oil." 

But if you are using a fish oil with 18% EPA and 12% DHA (fairly common ratios), then without taking into account exactly what health challenge is being addressed and exactly what the dog's dietary Omega 6, etc. is, then a gram of fish oil per ten pounds of dog (daily) is a pretty good generic average. 

With that, vitamin E (preferably d-alpha rather than dl-alpha, or even better, d-alpha with mixed tocopherols) is given to protect the oil supplement's PUFAs. I give 200 IU of E for the smaller dogs and 400 IU for the big one. 

PS
Yes, your arithmetic is good. I would have come up with the same fish oil dosage (about 7 1/2 grams, or about 1 1/5 teaspoons, for a 76-pound dog).

This is one of the reasons I rarely buy gelcaps. I don't want to pay for that! :lol: I use liquid, and protect it from heat and light.

All JMO!


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## Lindsay Janes (Aug 9, 2007)

I'm glad your dog didn't have hemangiosarcoma. It was pretty awful for any dogs to go through and I lost a dog to it a few years ago.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Connie, I could use a brand recommendation - we have been using products with assayed EPA 650mg, DHA 250mg about 900mg omega 3 per pill so more like 60% than 30% omega 3s (why pay premium for omega 6s which we want to avoid)

So 3 softgels may give us the same a 6 regular ones

As for me and my husband we will stick with the pills and fish twice a week but the dogs go bonkers over the fishy flavor so a good liquid would be a plus

Now-accuracy in labeling-we can only hope considering the state of food safety anymore.

----

The enlarged spleen still concerns me very much. I guess we can just go into monitor mode and do a quarterly scan, and I am going to enter him into a study for hemangio markers for early detection.

I will be very interested in finding out the results from NC State on the oddball infections. But the vet really does think his slowing down some this summer could be attributed to discomfort from the spondylosis and the prostate.

I lost my last dog to hemangio. He will 11 at onset and it was very rapid. Why so many dogs dying from this


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

_"EPA 650mg, DHA 250mg "_

650 mg EPA and 250 mg DHA per what? 

Is that the Amazon link you provided? The higher strength version (more EPA/DHA)?

I think most dogs loooove Grizzly, which smells and tastes disgusting to me but wonderful to my dogs. 

Grizzly is on the lower end of the spectrum for EPA/DHA content, so I just use more than when I give, say, Nordic.







PS
http://www.caninecancer.com/Hemangiosarcoma.html


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Connie Sutherland said:


> _"EPA 650mg, DHA 250mg "_
> 
> 650 mg EPA and 250 mg DHA per what?
> 
> ...


Yes the bottle says ONE pill has 1400mg fish oil but 650 mg EPA, 250 DHA
I will look into the Grizzly salmon oil and check out the link


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

The nutritionists prefer to use an absolute dose of EPA and DHA since there is such a disparity in products. I prefer the triple strength fish oil capsules you can get at GNC or Sam's Club. For the prostate, steer clear of soy and any estrogen containing compounds (if anyone in the house is on a estrogen replacement therapy cream). Not a bad idea to use filtered water too, like a Pur on the tap filter. Too many estrogen mimics in the environment these days...


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> The nutritionists prefer to use an absolute dose of EPA and DHA since there is such a disparity in products. I prefer the triple strength fish oil capsules you can get at GNC or Sam's Club. For the prostate, steer clear of soy and any estrogen containing compounds (if anyone in the house is on a estrogen replacement therapy cream). Not a bad idea to use filtered water too, like a Pur on the tap filter. Too many estrogen mimics in the environment these days...


Please clarify
At 56 and having had surgical menopause at 42, I do use small amounts of a premarin cream (uh, I know not natural but it works). Uh, nowhere the dog goes near. What problems could that cause? Figure husband also in prostate years so maybe I should be concerned for him, but I don't use it the same day.

I do have small amounts of non GMO soy products in the house but the dog does not eat, True about estrogen mimics in tap water. A friend just told me about an EIGHT YEAR OLD child developing breasts and menstruating and she does not have any genetic disorder...of course the child is fat...my kids were still 12 and 13 which is what I was.

I have bought the assayed fish oil for a long time. LOL my undergraduate research in 1976 was concerning the addition of dietary DHA and its beneficial impacts on RBC integrityin rats. My advisor at the time was freaked out about trans fatty acids


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Nancy Jocoy said:


> Please clarify
> At 56 and having had surgical menopause at 42, I do use small amounts of a premarin cream (uh, I know not natural but it works). Uh, nowhere the dog goes near. What problems could that cause? Figure husband also in prostate years so maybe I should be concerned for him, but I don't use it the same day.


Premarin is actually very "natural." It comes from *pre*gnant* mar*e ur*in*e. I'm not sure specifically about premarin, but the prostate in general is exquisitely sensitive to even very small amounts of estrogens or estrogen mimics. In fact, sometimes a smaller dose gives you more effects due to interaction with the estrogen receptor, which is what I did my research in grad school on. I would apply with nitrile gloves (some steroid hormones can go through latex) and wash your hands very well afterwards to be safe. Not sure if you'll be able to access this link, but here's some info on these creams:

http://news.vin.com/VINNews.aspx?articleId=15950




> I do have small amounts of non GMO soy products in the house but the dog does not eat, True about estrogen mimics in tap water. A friend just told me about an EIGHT YEAR OLD child developing breasts and menstruating and she does not have any genetic disorder...of course the child is fat...my kids were still 12 and 13 which is what I was.
> 
> I have bought the assayed fish oil for a long time. LOL my undergraduate research in 1976 was concerning the addition of dietary DHA and its beneficial impacts on RBC integrityin rats. My advisor at the time was freaked out about trans fatty acids


Preaching to the choir on that one...check out one of my favorite websites:

http://www.ourstolenfuture.org


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## Jennifer Michelson (Sep 20, 2006)

I am glad there is no immediate danger to Grimm. I hope the neuter goes smoothly for him. The sleen would bother me too, does the vet offer an explanation for the abnormalities? Could it be normal for Grimm?


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

I am not sure an enlarged spleen is ever normal

He did say GSDs are among the worst to have strange spleens though.

Because the RBC and Platelets were on the low end of normal that *could* be erlichosis but he has no other symptoms - but who knows? I guess you never really know.


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## vicki dickey (Jul 5, 2011)

Last year I lost 3 of my aussies to spleen cancer. They were from the same parents but different litters. Jamie in February at 9 years old, Jake in July at 10 years and Jimmy in December at 8 years.
What a shock this was especially since no one showed any signs of illness prior to the day they stopped eating or acted in pain. I even had bloodwork on them that showed nothing abnormal for their age. I understand this is very common in large breed dogs. I still feel I should have known something was not right, but each one was full of energy, looked great and acted normal. I am home everyday with my dogs and can tell you exactly what each one does at what time that is how well I know them and yet I did not know anything was amiss. They had the best of vet care, high quality food and 2 people who loved them dearly. That still doesnt make me feel better-I still feel as if I missed something-that maybe if I had known earlier I could have saved them or gave them more time. My vet assured me that isnt always the case. I rescued two dogs and bought Zak to show in honor of their memory and how much they meant to me. I miss them every day.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

About the only consolation is if you gotta go early......not much but better than a long period of debilitation.

I still do not understand why so much of this is happening. Is this some early warning we should be heeding?


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## vicki dickey (Jul 5, 2011)

Should you ever find the answer to your question please let me know. I have questioned many vets, talked to several owners whose dogs died and researched online but no one had an answer for me. My best friend had her dog at an agility trial and noticed he knocked down a few bars-something he never did-and yet he was eager to run and seemed just fine. The next day he wouldnt eat and seemed to be in pain. He was put to sleep that afternoon due to spleen cancer. I have heard of so many dogs dying of this around the age of 8-10 of all breeds and I have to think what are we doing that is causing this? Is it the way their food is produced, heartworm pills, flea prevention, or what is used on yards to prevent weeds ? There has to be something.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Vicki, when you mean "spleen cancer," was it hemangiosarcoma or something else?


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## Gina Pasieka (Apr 25, 2010)

The spleen is a like a giant lymph node...so lots of things can cause an enlarged spleen. Hemangiiosarcoma (HSA) occurs as a discreet mass...so having generaliized splenic enlargement would lead against HSA fortunately. Infections, inflammation, anemia or other forms of infiltrative cancer (lymphoma or mast cell) result in generalized splenomegaly. Yes...GSDs tend to have more pronounced spleens than other breeds for some reason...does not mean that it is pathologic. 

As far as the cause of HSA...no one knows...obviously there must be some genetic component as certain breeds are more predisposed (GSD, Goldens)...but I have seen the disease in poodles, yorkies and cats. Also occurs in people, but is particularly rare..thank God.


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## vicki dickey (Jul 5, 2011)

Jamie and Jake had a large mass on the spleen that was cncerous and had spread to the liver. Jimmy had bloodwork in July after Jake died and x-rays and there was nothing. Late one night in December he collasped and at the Emerency clinic he died within minutes after arrival. The vet said he appeared to be bleeding out and it was assumed to be a hemangiosarcoma. Jimmy just like Jamie and Jake showed no signs of pain or discomfort prior to their collaspe.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Grim has been cleared of all diseases by NC State - well they test for:

Using IFA - B Canis, B Henslae, B Vinsonii, E Canis, Rickettsia

Using SNAP4DX-Lyme, Erlichia, Anaplsma, and Heartworm

So..... We will just check the spleen in 3 months using ultrasound and hope they find nothing.

It took a sugar alcohol laxative to really soften the stools enough for them to pass. It sounds like it will take about 1 month for the prostate to shrink but I have already started backing off on the laxative amount and will adjust based on the stool. For the meanwhile orange poo (pumpkin) is real easy to see!


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Nancy Jocoy said:


> Grim has been cleared of all diseases by NC State - well they test for:
> 
> Using IFA - B Canis, B Henslae, B Vinsonii, E Canis, Rickettsia
> 
> ...


Here's hoping, then. Sounds OK so far .....


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Sounds pretty good. Will still keep good thought for Grimm to have smooth sailing and smooth moves from now on.


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## Debbie Skinner (Sep 11, 2008)

My dogs have been using the Grizzly brand fish oil after Connie recommended it. 

I've bought my supply lately from Better Health Int. http://www.betterhealthinternational.com/productDetails.asp?prodID=GPP2036 Their price is $37.95 for 64 oz and free shipping for orders of >$100. They sell a lot of human supplements too so it's easy for me to make the min order for free shipping. I think their price is pretty fair on the Grizzly fish oil. 

Also, someone else put a link up on WDF for a wholesale/bulk company (Jedwards in MA) http://www.bulknaturaloils.com sells the fish oil caps.. I think I paid $50 for something like 5000 caps..it's A LOT...The box is the size of a boot box full of gel caps. I've been filling jars and given them to friends. The fish oil caps are EPA 18% & DHA 12% and a detailed analysis sheet comes with them. 

Jedwards sells coconut oil at a big saving too for those that use it in cooking, etc.


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## vicki dickey (Jul 5, 2011)

Zak and I hope the very best for Grimm.


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