# ecollar as positive mark



## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

I am interested in learning some tricks using the ecollar as a positive mark. I have a 2300 dogtra with the page function. Im incorporating it into my training slowly and it seems to work very well. Care to share any tips using it to train a specific exercise or task? I have previously used it in the capacity of correction on a dog who was past the learning stage of training. But I am sure I'm leaving a lot on the table by not using it in positive mode.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

I use it for intermediate bridge when I use it.


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Joby Becker said:


> I use it for intermediate bridge when I use it.


Thats how I have started using it too Joby. Im trying to get the timing tighter.


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> I use it for intermediate bridge when I use it.


 
From what to what?


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Jody Butler said:


> From what to what?


From the moment in time dog was doing the right thing....to the moment the dog is rewarded I would imagine.

I think they are talking about using the page function like a clicker or marker.

BUT, I could be wrong.


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Jennifer Coulter said:


> From the moment in time dog was doing the right thing....to the moment the dog is rewarded I would imagine.
> 
> I think they are talking about using the page function like a clicker or marker.
> 
> BUT, I could be wrong.


 
well if so what is the bridge? The mark or the reward/correction of which is what?


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Jody Butler said:


> well if so what is the bridge? The mark or the reward/correction of which is what?


I am out LOL:-D I did not see the word "intermediate". This stuff is too complicated for me...I am blond after all LOL. Now maybe I think they use it to increase duration????? Like a keep going signal?

Why didn't I just let them answer](*,)


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Jody Butler said:


> From what to what?


as a positive...as in g-g-g-g-g-g-g-g-g-g-goood, but not the "YES" type terminal mark which leads to immediate reward.

pair it with food, praise, petting, play, brushing...to get the good vibrations flowing from it.

Although I also use the verbal good by itself or in conjunction with the vibrate, The terminal, for me is always a verbal YES or FREE. I think the buzz serves a more useful and practical purpose for a "good dog" type reminder than a "free" type release, which would really limit it I think. 

I also know that the dog is very collarwise..and not a dummy by any means. 
I surmise that because of this, when using the vibrate on the collar, it also serves as a very evident reminder to the dog that a nick or a stim "may" not be far behind, it is obviously serving as more than just a positive marker. I truly believe it has really helped the dog teach itself to avoid nicks, and stims almost all together on most occasions.

I am no marker pro, that is for sure, maybe I am off in my own world in the definitions, LOL...

It seems to work well for me though for my capabilities, and allows me to use the ecollar a lot for communication without having to hit the other "bad" buttons. 

Thinking about it, it is surely also serving as awarning for punishment, which may contribute to the dog being so collarwise LOL...she does not "test" it by doing something wrong, I don't have to "set her up", she knows the collar is on and really likes the buzz..

A good example that I can think of that I did today was doing some call offs, they are a new thing that we can now work on, thanks to your PM suggestions on the problem I was having.

After introducing some random calloffs, there was some normal confusion which led to some hesitation on a subsequent send, since I really missed the "recall for tug" boat.

I used the buzz for a "good" when the dog called off, and also used the buzz for a "good" also as the dog took off and continued the approach to the entry and bite, which seemed to work well. I did not have to give a second command to bite, have the decoy stimulate the dog to bite, correct her, verbally praise her on approach, or recall her back and try again, which are things I might have to do without the vibrate option.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

I thought more about Jody's question..

The example I gave was more of just a positive marker. than a bridge I guess.

Other examples would be for holding positions, giving continous vibe until "free" or Yes (reward).

another would be on a recall/Place, if dog is real fast and places into finish position, she gets the vibe all the way into the sit and then a free or yes (reward) if she is slow or shoots past me, I may not give vibe until she speeds up or will shut it off if she overshoots the finish...I also may give a low level stim to get her to speed up, and switch to vibe as the speed inceases... I may also give a vibe all the way in, and then a low stim if she overshoots, and then a vibe as she places correctly...

After thinking about it, I could get the same results with just a very low level stim, I am pretty sure the dog really likes the vibe though as it is something good, that much I know, much preferred to a stim, even at very low levels, but then again I never "charged" the low level stim to be pleasing (if that is possible)..so who knows LOL...

She will happily hold a sit or down while vibe is going, until Yes is given. Sometimes I still vibe after yes while rewarding. 

One more thing to the OP....if you use the vibe alot, especially in a constant manner, it DOES run down the battery much faster than if you were just using the nick/stim, recharge often.

So keep that in mind if the situation might warrant you to want or need the use of the negative side of the collar for something. I have had collar go dead at an inopportune time or two.


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> I thought more about Jody's question..
> 
> The example I gave was more of just a positive marker. than a bridge I guess.
> 
> ...


Is this all wth vibrate or any E? The other issue is it really working? I laughed the first time I heard about it, but good results here too!


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Jody Butler said:


> Is this all wth vibrate or any E? The other issue is it really working? I laughed the first time I heard about it, but good results here too!


Jody I laughed at marker training too. Then realized what an idiot I was as I begrudgingly started using it. Now I'd never go back to the old way. The vibe does work VERY WELL...im using it just like joby stated above. It lets you draw out the bridge especially if you are at a distance.


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## Kevin Cramer (Jan 26, 2008)

How did you guys start using vibrate for the "intermediate bridge"? Did you have a verbal intermediate bridge first then pair that with vibrate and eventually fade the verbal?

I marker train with both verbal marks and clicker. I've been reading more and more about Syn Alia training and will try to utilize the "intermediate bridge" more in training my next dog. I like the constant communication when training new behaviors.


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## Shawn Reed (Nov 9, 2010)

In marker training the "yes/click" is the bridge. Ideally, dogs learn best when the reward is consumed by the dog in 1.5 seconds. However, no one could be that quick and consistent to achieve that. Therefore the "yes" gives us a bridge(extra time to get the reward to the dog). To the dog we're taking a picture when we say "yes" or "click". Which is marking at that moment when they're doing the right thing. The yes then gives us a bridge or extra time to get the reward.

Joby, it sounds like your using the page button as a "duration marker", which tells the dog good job, keep doing what you're doing but you're not done yet?? But then you make it sound like you're also using it as a warning??


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Shawn Reed said:


> In marker training the "yes/click" is the bridge. Ideally, dogs learn best when the reward is consumed by the dog in 1.5 seconds. However, no one could be that quick and consistent to achieve that. Therefore the "yes" gives us a bridge(extra time to get the reward to the dog). To the dog we're taking a picture when we say "yes" or "click". Which is marking at that moment when they're doing the right thing. The yes then gives us a bridge or extra time to get the reward.
> 
> Joby, it sounds like your using the page button as a "duration marker", which tells the dog good job, keep doing what you're doing but you're not done yet?? But then you make it sound like you're also using it as a warning??


Shawn thats it in a nutshell...it allows you to lengthen the bridge or draw out the gooooooood bridge. Plus you get the muscle memory factor thrown in for even better communication. Nice description ...thanks


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## Marta Wajngarten (Jul 30, 2006)

I've been thinking about trying this as well. A lot of times I use a clicker while the dog is already wearing a collar, and if he's not it wouldn't take much to put it on (plus that in itself would work as a cue, we're going to work buddy). 

What I like better about the clicker is that it is a short always constant click, while the vibrate can change depending on how long you hold down the button. Although in that case perhaps it could also be used in a quantitative manner, longer buzz is a job really well done? Not sure if the dog would get the difference like that.

Is any one familiar with the Sit Means Sit folks? I've often wondered if they use the page as a clicker or if it's all avoidance training on low level stim?


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Marta Haus said:


> I've been thinking about trying this as well. A lot of times I use a clicker while the dog is already wearing a collar, and if he's not it wouldn't take much to put it on (plus that in itself would work as a cue, we're going to work buddy).
> 
> What I like better about the clicker is that it is a short always constant click, while the vibrate can change depending on how long you hold down the button. Although in that case perhaps it could also be used in a quantitative manner, longer buzz is a job really well done? Not sure if the dog would get the difference like that.
> 
> Is any one familiar with the Sit Means Sit folks? I've often wondered if they use the page as a clicker or if it's all avoidance training on low level stim?


Marta Im still poking around with it. Letting the dogs teach me what works. So far Im having luck (I have been known to ruin a dog or two lol). Hopefully im smart enough not to on this one ](*,)

As I figure out more about it I will sure share the good, bad and ugly.


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## Shawn Reed (Nov 9, 2010)

Brian Anderson said:


> Marta Im still poking around with it. Letting the dogs teach me what works. So far Im having luck (I have been known to ruin a dog or two lol). Hopefully im smart enough not to on this one ](*,)
> 
> As I figure out more about it I will sure share the good, bad and ugly.


The question I have is how are you charging the vibration to teach the dog that the vibration means good job keep going, your not done yet? I also wouldn't use it as a warning and a duration marker like someone else suggested. I think that would muddy the water so to speak.


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## Anna Kasho (Jan 16, 2008)

It's like playing "hot and cold" the intermediate bridge tells the dog it's getting "warmer", the terminal bridge is the final "yes" you did it. The stim can be used for the opposite, "colder" and with a Dogtra, modulated higher/lower as the dog feels the stim. Just another layer of communication beyond the yes and no.

eta - I did not charge the IB other than pairing with the verbal "good" which they already know. I am using the tritronics tone function, the Dogtra pager gets a different reaction due to previous training. I found the IB very helpful for placement, positioning, and duration issues in training...


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## Marta Wajngarten (Jul 30, 2006)

Shawn Reed said:


> The question I have is how are you charging the vibration to teach the dog that the vibration means good job keep going, your not done yet? I also wouldn't use it as a warning and a duration marker like someone else suggested. I think that would muddy the water so to speak.


I would do it the exact same way you would charge a clicker. Buzz treat, buzz treat, buzz treat..


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## Shawn Reed (Nov 9, 2010)

Marta Haus said:


> I would do it the exact same way you would charge a clicker. Buzz treat, buzz treat, buzz treat..


I would do it differently. I'd incorporate it with good as Ann stated. I use good when teaching stays. Stay, take a step away, mark "good", return and feed and build from there. Then the dog is learning right away what good means. I also only say it when the dog is looking at me. This way I can transfer it to focus heeling. But there are many roads to Rome and classically conditioning the vibrate like a reward marker would work too.


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Shawn Reed said:


> In marker training the "yes/click" is the bridge. Ideally, dogs learn best when the reward is consumed by the dog in 1.5 seconds. However, no one could be that quick and consistent to achieve that. Therefore the "yes" gives us a bridge(extra time to get the reward to the dog). To the dog we're taking a picture when we say "yes" or "click". Which is marking at that moment when they're doing the right thing. The yes then gives us a bridge or extra time to get the reward.
> 
> Joby, it sounds like your using the page button as a "duration marker", which tells the dog good job, keep doing what you're doing but you're not done yet?? But then you make it sound like you're also using it as a warning??


 
Thanks! Thats what I was getting at, a marker is immediate and identifable to the dog or SHOULD be, the elongated vibrate is inconsistent and IF the dog doesn't further give you the desired behavior, what have you accomplished? I'm not doubting it working, but its reliabilty over time won't be there. I HATE clickers, BUT I think they are very practical and the best marker out there, voice commands are the worst, due to the emotion invloved in the cue/command/marker...... frustration etc, again it isn't consistent. You end up giving a cue instead of a marker at times. 

If the dog KNOWS the command and you mark the behavior, depending on the objective you need to bridge what? The time the behavior is shown/correc to the reward? My suggestion would keep all voice and handler actions away from the animal. You won't get the reliability over time. You could however use low stim (E, not tone or vibrate) and increase the dog's speed to reward in some cases. Again, motivator, but the dog has to know the task and understand the collar (conditioning) 

Just a thought


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> I thought more about Jody's question..
> 
> The example I gave was more of just a positive marker. than a bridge I guess.
> 
> ...


 
How do you know she prefers the vibrate over a low stim? Take your self out of the equation....

And I don't think there is a negative side to the collar, only people who don't know how to use it....There is a positive and negative to everything, but if used properly, nothing is negative.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Marta Haus said:


> Is any one familiar with the Sit Means Sit folks? I've often wondered if they use the page as a clicker or if it's all avoidance training on low level stim?


Come to Vegas. Bring your dog. :lol::lol::lol:


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## Marta Wajngarten (Jul 30, 2006)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Come to Vegas. Bring your dog. :lol::lol::lol:


is that code?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Jody Butler said:


> Thanks! Thats what I was getting at, a marker is immediate and identifable to the dog or SHOULD be, the elongated vibrate is inconsistent and IF the dog doesn't further give you the desired behavior, what have you accomplished? I'm not doubting it working, but its reliabilty over time won't be there. I HATE clickers, BUT I think they are very practical and the best marker out there, voice commands are the worst, due to the emotion invloved in the cue/command/marker...... frustration etc, again it isn't consistent. You end up giving a cue instead of a marker at times.
> 
> If the dog KNOWS the command and you mark the behavior, depending on the objective you need to bridge what? The time the behavior is shown/correc to the reward? My suggestion would keep all voice and handler actions away from the animal. You won't get the reliability over time. You could however use low stim (E, not tone or vibrate) and increase the dog's speed to reward in some cases. Again, motivator, but the dog has to know the task and understand the collar (conditioning)
> 
> Just a thought


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Shawn Reed said:


> In marker training the "yes/click" is the bridge. Ideally, dogs learn best when the reward is consumed by the dog in 1.5 seconds. However, no one could be that quick and consistent to achieve that. Therefore the "yes" gives us a bridge(extra time to get the reward to the dog). To the dog we're taking a picture when we say "yes" or "click". Which is marking at that moment when they're doing the right thing. The yes then gives us a bridge or extra time to get the reward.
> 
> Joby, it sounds like your using the page button as a "duration marker", which tells the dog good job, keep doing what you're doing but you're not done yet?? But then you make it sound like you're also using it as a warning??


its semantics...your duration marker is someone else's IB. There are alot of different sytsems out there, I am no expert in practice, or the terminologies used.

you are correct in what I use it for. I am NOT purposely using it as a warning, I only use it as a "goooood". 



Shawn Reed said:


> The question I have is how are you charging the vibration to teach the dog that the vibration means good job keep going, your not done yet? I also wouldn't use it as a warning and a duration marker like someone else suggested. I think that would muddy the water so to speak.


My point was I believe 100% that the dog also views it as a reminder that the stim button is only an inch away, and that the collar is functioning properly. She is pretty smart, I showed her the remote and how close the buttons are to eachother  

But seriously..I am using ALL functions of the collar, not just the vibrate, the nick and stim get used as well. I do alot of low level negative reiforcement (that may or may not be punishment to the dog, who knows really?) as well as nicks and turn it up for actual corrections if necessary...the point is NOT that I am using it as warning...

The point is since I am using one collar system for various functions, both as good and bad, the dog knows they are all connected in one system, she is not stupid, and the mere fact that she knows the "good" part of the collar is operational, I would bet money she also knows that the "bad" part of the collar is also operational...and therefore just the fact that it is working she is aware, that SHE probably uses it as a warning.

Some people may also just use the vibe as a command, like a recall or whatever, others use it as an attention getter (a warning).

I just chose to try to use it for what I want to use it for..I think there is some article somewhere about the use of the vibe for what I use it for, I saw a reference to one in another post here somewhere, but do not know where to find it, maybe someone can link it..

I am no expert in marker training that is for sure. The waters that the dog swims in may be muddier than waters that others swim in, but they are the clearest ones that this dog has swam in. All I can say is the dog KNOWS the vibe means GOOD, and that she LIKES the vibe...



Kevin Cramer said:


> How did you guys start using vibrate for the "intermediate bridge"? Did you have a verbal intermediate bridge first then pair that with vibrate and eventually fade the verbal?
> 
> I marker train with both verbal marks and clicker. I've been reading more and more about Syn Alia training and will try to utilize the "intermediate bridge" more in training my next dog. I like the constant communication when training new behaviors.


I "charged" the vibe to good things, food, playing, petting, massaging, brushing and praise so she liked it.....then when I started training with it, I used verbal goooooooood while using it, I still do sometimes, but do not have to, the vibrate means "good" or gooooooood.

I was doing this long before I heard of Syn Alia, or really researched any type of marker systems officially. Just telling the dog it is doing a good job, praise...period...

I think you can easily do this with your current dog, don't have to wait til the next one...



Jody Butler said:


> You could however use low stim (E, not tone or vibrate) and increase the dog's speed to reward in some cases. Again, motivator, but the dog has to know the task and understand the collar (conditioning)
> 
> Just a thought


This is very true. I do this as well. This is very motivating...

The prolonged vibe, I do not do all the time, it is usually like a nick on the E side of it...I do sometimes use the prolonged stim as well, because I know the dog associates it with good things, and it makes me happy to make her happy LOL...even if it is not the best training LOL..



Jody Butler said:


> How do you know she prefers the vibrate over a low stim? Take your self out of the equation....
> 
> And I don't think there is a negative side to the collar, only people who don't know how to use it....There is a positive and negative to everything, but if used properly, nothing is negative.


I do not know this for sure, all I know is that I charged the vibe to mean good things to the dog, I use low level stim as you describe and it WORKS. I cannot say for sure if the dog likes the stim or doesn't like it, she probably does like it judging her behavior, but I cannot say that for sure.

Since we are talking OC. markers and all that jazz, I also think there COULD BE a negative side to the collar, the negative reinforcement..if the dog does not actually like the low level stim, it is doing behaviors to stop the stim.... just sayin...LOL ( I know exactly what you are saying though, just razzin)


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

dammit, LOL...

OK Jody,,,lol

since the dog cannot talk I do not KNOW 100% that she likes the vibrate as much as I think she does....she might hate it and just tolerates it..she does know that it means that I think she is correct at the time, even if she hates it...she knows it means GOOD.

I do know that many people use the vibe as an annoyance to turn off and it works very similarly to low level stim. 

Many people also think that certain dogs LIKE the low level stim. This I cannot say yay or nay too, I do not have the experience to say one way or another. 

I can only say that the dog does not respond the same way to the vibe as the low stim. This may be because of how it was introduced to her and how I have been using it.


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> dammit, LOL...
> 
> OK Jody,,,lol
> 
> ...


 
LOL, I personally think they need to take the tone, vibrate and nick functions off the e-collar and make it simple, but thats me!

You never know whether she likes or dislikes something unless you read and get the desired results. 

Take a football player as someone said years ago, hitting another player on the line over and over, does it hurt? some say yes, some say no, its motivating to hit harder and harder or move quicker and quicker. Is it avoidance? I don't think so, motivating. But when you bring that to the dog via e-collar its an easy call if you are familiar with collar conditioning, but if you are not it is tough to find that sweet spot as some will say. There are so many ways how to condition the dog to the collar, but if you don't do it correctly your only creating a monster in the long run.

If you use the collar as a correction tool, then remember, whatever your level (or any correction) of correction is you need to have an equal level or complete 180 of a reward, they dog needs to know both spectrums or your only confusing them. For an award of correction to mean anything at anytime, it needs to be immediate, identifiable and impressionable! 

OK, I'm done here....


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Jody Butler said:


> OK, I'm done here....


Agreed...me too..


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

_If you use the collar as a correction tool, then remember, whatever your level (or any correction) of correction is you need to have an equal level or complete 180 of a reward, they dog needs to know both spectrums or your only confusing them. For an award of correction to mean anything at anytime, it needs to be immediate, identifiable and impressionable! _

YES!!


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## Juan Galvis (Nov 22, 2010)

*"How did you guys start using vibrate for the "intermediate bridge"? Did you have a verbal intermediate bridge first then pair that with vibrate and eventually fade the verbal?

I marker train with both verbal marks and clicker. I've been reading more and more about Syn Alia training and will try to utilize the "intermediate bridge" more in training my next dog. I like the constant communication when training new behaviors."* 

You do not replace cues by pairing...you start by saying/applying the new cue followed by the one you already have installed. If you pair them the do not classically condition.


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