# front and finish



## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

I would love it if people could give me some descriptions about how they imprint/train the "front" and "finish" with very young pups. Better yet...video links 

I am at the food luring stage at present.

I have some ideas of my own, but tricks of the trade to have them learn to come in fast, straight and tight from the get go would be nice.

Thanks in advance.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

I have been taught to teach a particular foundation in a particular order. I am not good enough to deviate much, so I will try to tell you how I was taught, but since i don't do it with young pups, you would probably want to modify it and use food or a toy to motivate, maybe since it's a little pup, not worry as much about perfection, just making sure the pup learns, and has a basic understanding?: 

"Fus" or "Heel" to my dog means on my left in correct position, and dog looking at my face. We ingrain this in the dog. Eventually when the dog understands the command, we add distractions like hand clapping. If the dog looks away, it's an appropriate leash pop, when the dog returns to correct position, praise, praise. Maybe with a little pup, you would have your food or toy motivation and just reward for being correct rather than any leash corrections. So the dog learns that when I say "fus" he must always be at my side, aligned correctly, looking at my face. Then we add a single step forward, gradually adding more steps, turns, changes of speed, and so on, until the dog thouroughly understands this command. Once I know that no matter where my dog is, if I say "fus" he will quickly move into this basic position every time, then I know he understands the command.

Next we add "fronts". This is how Dean taught me "fronts" and how I have done it ever since: http://www.deancalderon.com/Articles/Force.pdf Now once the dog completely understands fronts, when I say "here" and he will them press into me, and i can walk backwards for a long time and in a serpentine pattern and he stays in the "here" position always. A good test is to side step saying "here" and the dog should move with you and always end up in that front position.

So now your dog knows "here" and is in the front recall position. Your dog also knows the "fus or heel" positon. So when he is in front of you, give him your heel position command. At the same time use your leash to help guide him either around back of you, or sort of a helicopter movement to guide him into a flip finish. When he is back in correct "heel" position, reward. Because the dog alreayd understands your "heel" command, this is a very easy next step for the dog to get.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

I just do a lot of marking with a clicker at first. Eye contact is the foundation of both these exercises. It is just the eye contact game, to start. Heel position it is again just molding with food and marking it with the eye contact. I teach both exercises always one at a time then tie them together. Make it fun and fast boom boom but simple black and white for the dog and the dog will respond. Sasha does a flip finish and am sure Pika will do it easily as well. Funny she heels off leash better than she does on leash as per the eye contact foundation I put on her.

Some of the neatest finishes I have ever seen is this Siberian Husky .. it is a finished product but should give you some inspiration. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PiKJa8Xq2-w&playnext_from=TL&videos=EN-zXighpEw As this is what I've gone for as a style with Sasha's front and finish and for the most part we have gotten it. 

As for video of the front and finish beginnings I'm sure there is a lot out there. But I know the pup and she will respond to you making it fun and easy to understand, don't make it more complicated than need be.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Geoff Empey said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PiKJa8Xq2-w&playnext_from=TL&videos=EN-zXighpEw


Nice shorts..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JfOpgTN2ZqY


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> Nice shorts..


OMG and the music! It was a nice jumpin' flip finish...but there was just no way I could watch it all the way through:mrgreen::lol:

Thank you Geoff, I understood the spirit of the post


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## Pamella Renaldi (Mar 6, 2010)

Geoff Empey said:


> I just do a lot of marking with a clicker at first. Eye contact is the foundation of both these exercises. It is just the eye contact game, to start. Heel position it is again just molding with food and marking it with the eye contact. I teach both exercises always one at a time then tie them together. Make it fun and fast boom boom but simple black and white for the dog and the dog will respond. Sasha does a flip finish and am sure Pika will do it easily as well. Funny she heels off leash better than she does on leash as per the eye contact foundation I put on her.
> 
> Some of the neatest finishes I have ever seen is this Siberian Husky .. it is a finished product but should give you some inspiration. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PiKJa8Xq2-w&playnext_from=TL&videos=EN-zXighpEw As this is what I've gone for as a style with Sasha's front and finish and for the most part we have gotten it.
> 
> As for video of the front and finish beginnings I'm sure there is a lot out there. But I know the pup and she will respond to you making it fun and easy to understand, don't make it more complicated than need be.


The dog is quick when moving to a heeling position, jumping. My dog only walks around when moving to position but I'm still proud of her :razz:.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Susan, I taught it similarly. The only difference is I omitted the PDF steps for for the front, teaching it from one position rather than as a bit of a motion exercise. Needless to say I never really got a good front. Anyway, when I was ready to introduce the flip finish, with the dog sitting in front of me I took a step towards her and at the same time I said "fuss" and just kept walking for 3-5 more steps. It wasn't nearly the cluster it sounds like and actually worked very well because she knew where she needed to be for "fuss". She also knew how to get into that position from any distance or position from me (behind, opposite, diagonal) so moving into it from the front wasn't a stretch at all.

I got the idea from Jim Elder and when I felt ready to teach it I started with my dog at about 5 months of age.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

I like that video too. 

I've tried a bunch of different methods for teaching the front and I didn't like them. I like the Bernard Flinks way to teach the close front, but it's really hard with a small dog or puppy. And if you are considering competing in anything in the future, you don't want a dog that is actually touching you in a front. (Personally, I prefer a dog that plasters itself to my legs in a front.)

I do a lot of heeling with my dogs first. So they always flip around to heel automatically and then I suddenly realize that the dog is driving me nuts and that I haven't taught it to be in front yet. 

1. I teach the dog to be comfortable in front of me. My dogs all do a flip finish first, so I usually have to stand by a wall to get the dog to stay in front of me. I just give treats while the dog is in front.

2. When the dog comes in front on its own, I click. I repeat until the dog is coming in front. I shape this into a straight front.

3. I start turning away from the dog to teach the dog to find front. I continue shaping towards a straight front. It usually falls apart a little bit in this stage, but it will come.

4. When I can turn my back to the dog and call it to front, then I tack on the sit after the front. Usually I have to call the dog to front, sit, then back up and repeat until I capture a close enough sit and click it.

5. I start to proof it by calling the dog from front to fuss to front. If the dog does well, I start adding front as a position in training randomly.

Quick and easy. The longest I've had to spend on this with a dog is an hour.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Jennifer Coulter said:


> OMG and the music! It was a nice jumpin' flip finish...but there was just no way I could watch it all the way through:mrgreen::lol:
> 
> Thank you Geoff, I understood the spirit of the post


Funny I am to busy looking at the dog work to notice the fruity shorts. I guess Gerry was checking out the dude's package! [-X The music don't bug me either being a speed metal freak from way back.  I think that it is the band Rammstein from Germany. . I like my stuff way heavier that that though. :-o

Jennifer for the front and finish ... K.I.S.S.


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Nicole Stark said:


> Anyway, when I was ready to introduce the flip finish, with the dog sitting in front of me I took a step towards her and at the same time I said "fuss" and just kept walking for 3-5 more steps.


Interesting!

Thanks for the ideas guys! 

Good point about the competing thing. For my SAR ob exam they will not care if the dog touches or not. I kinda wanted to teach it touching. That said, I was entertaining the though of some basic CKC ob stuff on the side...if I can find the time. I will have to think that one through.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Geoff Empey said:


> I think that it is the band Rammstein from Germany. . I like my stuff way heavier that that though. :-o
> 
> Jennifer for the front and finish ... K.I.S.S.


Yeah, I'm pretty sure it was Rammstein. And ditto, that's exactly why I thought I'd give the walk out a shot first. If the foundation is there the rest comes together pretty easily O


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Geoff Empey said:


> Funny I am to busy looking at the dog work to notice the fruity shorts. I guess Gerry was checking out the dude's package!


I didn't say anything about fruity or any kind of package...not that there's anything wrong with that :-s, I will say he/she wouldn't likely make the return trip across the road around here.

Geoff, what were you searching for when you found this video


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> Geoff, what were you searching for when you found this video


I was probably looking for a description of a Flip Finish and I think someone linked me from here .. :-({|=

Like I said never noticed the shorts .. to intent on watching the dog work. Did notice a treat delivered via mouth spit though. I used to do that with small pieces of hard cheese but my aim was never good and it created other problems if she missed the catch. I'd rather just mark the behaviour with the clicker and treat at my leisure. I just like the energy of the dog and handler despite the shorts. To me that's the type of energy that needs to be brought to every training session. A "mellow" zen zone if you want to call it that. 

The dog is having fun you can see it in his body language, and the handler just becomes part of the zone for the dog. I know if I'm under the weather and that happens a lot with my medical condition .. the dog picks it up, even if I am trying to mask whatever is ail'n me at the time the dog picks up on it no matter. It is better for me to go sit down have a beer relax and try again later.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

What's your medical problem ?


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> What's your medical problem ?


Extremely bad arthritis .. Back, knees, hands, feet .. Need both hip joints replaced/resurfaced. To many years of beating the crap out of my body. Could've had one hip done for this past Febuary but with the pups on the way, I had to say no to to the surgeon when he called (bad timing) pushed that off until the fall until after the trial season.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Spitting treats works well, but it's important the dog not be allowed to get the treat if she misses and it falls on the ground. A dog very quickly learns to focus on your face so as not to miss any treats. 

Geoff I'm sorry about your arthritis, that's not fun to deal with.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Geoff Empey said:


> . Could've had one hip done for this past Febuary but with the pups on the way, I had to say no to to the surgeon when he called (bad timing) pushed that off until the fall until after the trial season.


You might be Canadian if you've ever told your surgeon......8)

Wespek...

http://www.alig4real.co.uk/images/main_ali_g_01.jpg


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Good info here.
I will add one more thing. When working on the "front" you don't want to automatically put a finish with it or the dog will start anticipating the finish and going to it on his own. 
"Why wait! Mom is gonna tell me to finish anyway."

I like the sit solid to where I can move around and the dog stays. You can then do a "sit" then walk in front of the dog for doing a finish without the front. Make sense?"
Same thing though. Don't do a finish every time you go in front of the dog. Random mark/reward/release.
The "random" should vary. You can fall into a every fifth time I'm gonna do a finish without even knowing your count. The dog will pick up on that.


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

what i do withlittle pups is first load the mark, then, when they start offering random behaviors that have been marked in the hope of a treat, i start adding a command, and i'll only mark/reward that command on any given day.

for a formal front, i use 'heir" and move backwards until the pup is in a perfect front (i only reward perfect fronts for this command). 

for "fuss" i like to work next to a wall of some sort that forces the pup to sit straight (muscle memory) and again, mark/reward only when the position is perfect. this thread has a bunch of info: http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f9/teaching-fuss-position-13783/

re: the finish, nothing new to add, though i want to teach Ike a flip as he's so athletic--i'll let ya know how THAT goes, lol 

hope some bit of this helps.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> Good info here.
> I will add one more thing. When working on the "front" you don't want to automatically put a finish with it or the dog will start anticipating the finish and going to it on his own.
> "Why wait! Mom is gonna tell me to finish anyway."
> 
> ...


Excellent point, Bob. I do pretty much the same thing.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> Good info here.
> I will add one more thing. When working on the "front" you don't want to automatically put a finish with it or the dog will start anticipating the finish and going to it on his own.
> "Why wait! Mom is gonna tell me to finish anyway."
> 
> ...



Totally in agreement here Bob it should be mixed up often. Hopefully I can get some video of my front and finish with heeling one day. I think you'll all get a kick out of it how much fun I make it for the dog. Talking about mixing things up also I mix not just the front and finishes up. I'll mix up the reward or negatory response such as using the e-collar or a dummy e-collar one day, then a leash and collar, a muzzle the next exercise, and even use a heeling stick (riding crop) with no collar at all to touch her if she is out of position. Sometimes it is a mixture of all these things. But the base of the exercise is always the same. Look for position with eye contact .. reward for that, it doesn't get much easier than that. Once that foundation is there the rest is cake, to many trainers make things harder than what they should be.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Too many people also do not put enough work into a good and correct solid foundation. I do see people who make the mistake of rushing through and not spending enough time developing a very solid and correct foundation, then wonder why they always have crooked sits, slow sits, out of position dogs, crooked fronts, slow recalls, sloppy flip finishes, etc, dogs that anticipate finishes, etc..](*,) Everything always falls back to the foundation, for me, it can't be emphasized enough.


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

susan tuck said:


> Too many people also do not put enough work into a good and correct solid foundation. I do see people who make the mistake of rushing through and not spending enough time developing a very solid and correct foundation, then wonder why they always have crooked sits, slow sits, out of position dogs, crooked fronts, slow recalls, sloppy flip finishes, etc, dogs that anticipate finishes, etc..](*,) Everything always falls back to the foundation, for me, it can't be emphasized enough.


 
susan, that's why i only reward the "perfect" front, etc. and i spend a fair amount of time on the position before i add the duration/distractions. now we'll see how well it works with Ike, lol :-\"


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