# tablework tell tell me why



## milder batmusen (Jun 1, 2009)

I have seen that especially in germany that many train there dogs on a table in bitework 

can someone in here tell me why is that again that is not used in Denmark so I wonder why.

could it be to teach the dogs to pull and drag the sleeve 

or is this a methodto increase drive in dogs


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Tall helpers, they don't want to bend down to work


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## milder batmusen (Jun 1, 2009)

Jody Butler said:


> Tall helpers, they don't want to bend down to work


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Yup, here goes again, as Nicole would say "thread Nazi" 

Let's see how fast this gets locked...

http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f23/first-table-session-16202/

http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f23/table-training-starts-7-months-16434/

http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f30/table-training-13942/

http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f53/table-training-dog-sports-14316/


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

This is what I see, but, I don't work dogs in bitework so it is a view from the outside. Peopkle today love to push a dog into defense. Having an eyeboldtcemented into the ground with a very short chain is frowned on today. Now, they put them on a table to accomplish the same thing....put the dog into defense. Which is probably also easier to do when you elevate the dog on a limited space but you still have the short chain. From the outside looking in, I see very little difference between the ring in the ground and the table. Of course unless your talking foced retrieve training. I ,personally, have no use for dogs only in defense.


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## jeremy anderson (Mar 19, 2010)

We use the table sometimes in training. For us it's to help the dog bite down harder & pull harder. If the dog bites the sleeve at the edge of the table you can pull him so his paws are about to go over the edge & he will bite down harder & pull back.
Not sure if this is the same thing your talking about.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> This is what I see, but, I don't work dogs in bitework so it is a view from the outside. Peopkle today love to push a dog into defense. Having an eyeboldtcemented into the ground with a very short chain is frowned on today. Now, they put them on a table to accomplish the same thing....put the dog into defense. Which is probably also easier to do when you elevate the dog on a limited space but you still have the short chain. From the outside looking in, I see very little difference between the ring in the ground and the table. Of course unless your talking foced retrieve training. I ,personally, have no use for dogs only in defense.


That's one reason, putting a dog in defense, but not the only one and not even the main reason. I'm certainly no expert but I have seen good helpers experienced with the table, move a dog from prey to defense and back again on a table, and yes, helps save the helper's back. Great for other stuff too, like working the out, targeting, working the grip, regripping, oh and did I mention saving helpes back?, etc..


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## Stefan Schaub (Sep 12, 2010)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y7bpU0EC1Eg&feature=player_embedded

Agent Wolfsheim,full trained on table.bark and hold out guarding

http://www.von-der-staatsmacht.de/videos.php

some other dogs on table

easy for bark and hold,controll for out,the dog is all time on the right place


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

I sure like that "L" litter.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

milder batmusen said:


> I have seen that especially in germany that many train there dogs on a table in bitework
> 
> can someone in here tell me why is that again that is not used in Denmark so I wonder why.
> 
> ...


A table can be used for a lot of different things, but in most cases it's used to restrict the dog's movement and diminish his physical options. Once you have done that you can manipulated the dog into a behavior easier and reward it.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

There are two tables and they are used for different reasons. The round table is for everything less defense. The round table is only 18 inches off the ground, The defense table is square and is four feet off the ground. Again they each have their own purpose.


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

I think the most important thing about the table is the success achieved using it. Most of the people against its use have never used it and dont understand how it works. Many successful trainers use it Eurosport, Sportwaffen, staatsmacht, Vikar, Hagenmuehle,Firehouse etc just to name a few. There are any threads on the subject already!


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

It is for little *** Sch trainers who need their dog to look a certain way, because they might lose a point. It is for little Sch trainers whose dogs are gutless little queers so they can be made to look better than the shitters they really are.

It is also for tall helpers so that their backs don't hurt so bad. However, unless you have like 30 or more dogs to work, you are just wanting to use something.

To me, these are the same people that build things like the gorilla bong. They just want to say that they made this little gadget or whatever.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> It is for little *** Sch trainers who need their dog to look a certain way, because they might lose a point.


You mean that people actually try to get full points when they play a sport? Well that's just shameful!!!


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Your dog will need some work on the table for sure. Gotta make sure he doesn't run like the cur he is.

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHA

Wait, I forgot that most of the little sissies stand in the middle of the field and wait for the dog. Gotta be safe ! ! ! !


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## milder batmusen (Jun 1, 2009)

yes I have seen that many use the table 

is it most the gsd people or does alot of trainers work their mals to at a table

I Denmark it is not used and many does not like the use of a table =;


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> This is what I see, but, I don't work dogs in bitework so it is a view from the outside. Peopkle today love to push a dog into defense. Having an eyeboldtcemented into the ground with a very short chain is frowned on today. Now, they put them on a table to accomplish the same thing....put the dog into defense. Which is probably also easier to do when you elevate the dog on a limited space but you still have the short chain. From the outside looking in, I see very little difference between the ring in the ground and the table. Of course unless your talking foced retrieve training. I ,personally, have no use for dogs only in defense.


Well, for one the table isn't just used for bitework, then there are many variations of tables of which you described. You obvioulsy have no clue. The same pressure can be applied on the ground as on the table if that is what someone is doing. The Table of any type is a tool in training, just like an e-collar, bungee line, prong, choke, or E-collar. There are many ways people use these tools whether we all agree on it or not, those are their methods. Somethings work well for some dogs, others not so much. Do all dogs need to be worked on a table? NO, just like all dogs don't need E-collar training! 

We seldom agree on the type of training others do and the the equipment being used...and the manner it is being used in. Whether its PSD, Sport, Hobbiest, etc....everyone is different to include the dog being trained and the methods. Some may have more experience others not so much. I look at the dog as a tool for a Police Officer or Military member, it is never in my eyes a Protection Dog, other than a deterent for alerting on someone. It gives the individual enough time to make a decision and nuetralize the situation. Just like the dog is a tool to a Police Officer, a table is a tool in training for some. 

If I am a competitor and I need points and I've tried everything and can't get it done, but the table might help, your damn right I am gonna try, cause I am a competitor! (Ok, I am a shitty trainer if I can't fix it without a table)

The table in my eyes regardless of how you use it allows you to control the outcome resulting in success for you and the dog. As soon as the dog gets it, then its off the table and into a new situation and start proofing...

It is the year 2011 and training as progressed over the years and the so called round table and defense table as people call them are used for a wide range of things, not all bitework, etc...


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

milder batmusen said:


> yes I have seen that many use the table
> 
> is it most the gsd people or does alot of trainers work their mals to at a table
> 
> I Denmark it is not used and many does not like the use of a table =;


Then don't use it, simple....


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## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

Jody Butler said:


> The Table of any type is a tool in training, just like an *e-collar, *bungee line, prong, choke, or *E-collar. *


Joby is this anything like an E-collar?


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Lou Castle said:


> Joby is this anything like an E-collar?


 
Its Jo*D*y :wink:


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## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

Jody Butler said:


> The Table of any type is a tool in training, just like an *e-collar, *bungee line, prong, choke, or *E-collar. *


Jo*D*y is this anything like an E-collar?


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Lou Castle said:


> Jo*D*y is this anything like an E-collar?


My comparison was to a tool in the overall training process or endstate. 

Table in my eyes is like a E-collar, can be used in good and bad ways, all in the manner of who is using it and how. 

If you want to build a wooden table, you may need a saw and hammer....what kind of saw and hammer and how you use it in making your table may be different for alot of people....


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## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

Too subtle I guess.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Lou Castle said:


> Too subtle I guess.


:grin: :grin: :grin:


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Joby, we agree on this. The table is a tool. I have a table myself. When I put a dog on it and hook him to the anchor, I can have him groomed in 30 minutes if I use horse clippers where I don't have to bath and comb him. :grin:


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Lou Castle said:


> Jo*D*y is this anything like an E-collar?




More like an e-collar.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Your dog will need some work on the table for sure. Gotta make sure he doesn't run like the cur he is.


Do you mean this cur?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HrUDWv99GVM


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Don you doing haiir cuts too?
I'll eat at the table, no hair cuts there...messess up the fooD...


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## milder batmusen (Jun 1, 2009)

Jody Butler said:


> Then don't use it, simple....


Well I think its a shame if its a training method that work good then why dont use it:-$

Sorry but Danish are wierd:---)


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

milder batmusen said:


> Well I think its a shame if its a training method that work good then why dont use it:-$
> 
> Sorry but Danish are wierd:---)


Milder,
Like many training tools it isn't a must. MANY Top trainers use it, many don't. It depends on individual preference. Danish guys are ok:razz:


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

The only time I make my dog jump on to a table is at the vet's. It's always said that the dog is easier to handle on the table???

As to training, everyone, even the "professionals" skate around the issue.

Nobody will ever come right out and say it is for weak dogs - that is, if it is!!

I've trained in Switzerland and Germany but have never seen it used. I've seen a table at our club but I've never seen them use it.

I know that 100 years ago we were using horse and cart but 20 years ago no one was using the table, the results were also very good and the dogs were (maybe) harder :wink:


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

I like what JODY posted, 

although...

I often see the word NEED used when talking about the use of a table...

I asked before in a table thread...

"Is it possible that some people just LIKE to use a table?" 

As a tool, I think some people like to use the table, even if they do not NEED to use the table. 

I imagine there are plenty of dogs that get put on tables, because the trainers like to use tables for various things, dogs that do not actually NEED to be put on one.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

I see a few things which have been addressed in the past and currently. 

IF you have a bad back, the table idea IS helpful for may things including the hold and release commands for may venues.
The table is also good for dog grooming...didn't have much experience here but it keeps the dog focused!!!
Giving shots and dewormings is great as the animal can't go to far.
The drawbacks...puts the dog visually on the same "level" as the trainer. Puts the handler's face in a possible bite position. Folks who have never worked a dog on a table and have the dog cabled in place have better the odds of injuring the animal of it bolts. Crap workmanship can cause everyone issues if it falls apart.


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## milder batmusen (Jun 1, 2009)

Oluwatobi Odunuga said:


> Milder,
> Like many training tools it isn't a must. MANY Top trainers use it, many don't. It depends on individual preference. *Danish guys are ok:razz:*





Danish are very far behind in traning methods and they wont learn from others they still train their dogs like we did many years ago, and they are closed in their selfes.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

milder batmusen said:


> [/B]
> 
> 
> Danish are very far behind in traning methods and they wont learn from others they still train their dogs like we did many years ago, and they are closed in their selfes.


you have met EVERY Danish person that works with dogs?


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

;-)

http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f22/table-training-really-works-673/


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## milder batmusen (Jun 1, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> you have met EVERY Danish person that works with dogs?


of curse I have never met every danish that works with dogs,but I do know tha danish mentality,and I do know that they dont look far out from their own nose and are very critical about many things that they dont know especially the gsd people :roll:

danish in generel are a very critical people, that has alot of opinions about what others do,without a futher information. not just with dogs but with everything.


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

Gillian Schuler said:


> The only time I make my dog jump on to a table is at the vet's. It's always said that the dog is easier to handle on the table???
> 
> As to training, everyone, even the "professionals" skate around the issue.
> 
> ...


I agree that the table may make some weak dogs get better but if you can convince me Nate harve's Stuka, Leon staatsmacht, Those fantastic Vikar dogs and many other dogs are 'WEAK' then i'll agree the table is only for weak dogs. I really believe some trainers just prefer using it.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Oluwatobi Odunuga said:


> I agree that the table may make some weak dogs get better but if you can convince me Nate harve's Stuka, Leon staatsmacht, Those fantastic Vikar dogs and many other dogs are 'WEAK' then i'll agree the table is only for weak dogs. I really believe some trainers just prefer using it.


I think that goes back directly to the fact that it is hard to break a good dog. The dogs you mention would have probably been just as great if they had never seen a table. You can't assume they were great "because" of the table.


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> I think that goes back directly to the fact that it is hard to break a good dog. The dogs you mention would have probably been just as great if they had never seen a table. You can't assume they were great "because" of the table.


 
I don't think it is that hard to break a good dog or any dog........with or without a table...


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Jody Butler said:


> I don't think it is that hard to break a good dog or any dog........with or without a table...


If that is what you intend to do in the first place....no it isn't. Most people don't start out simply to break the dog so I don't see your point. A good dog will still take a lot more than a weak dog. So, what is your point? Is there one?

I can name a couple of show dogs that were great hunting dogs.....does it stand to reason that they were great hunters because they were bred for show? Not hardly.


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> If that is what you intend to do in the first place....no it isn't. Most people don't start out simply to break the dog so I don't see your point. A good dog will still take a lot more than a weak dog. *So, what is your point? Is there one?*
> 
> I can name a couple of show dogs that were great hunting dogs.....does it stand to reason that they were great hunters because they were bred for show? Not hardly.


My point is a-lot of people THINK they know what the hell they are doing and truth is THEY DON'T....

I don't think it would be anyones intent to ruin or break any dog, that is silly, but I have seen stupid shit before....


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Don, I am telling you I have seen people do table work and it was perfect. absolutely perfect. Then there were the rest of them. I figure there are about 2 people out of a hundred that can just flat out read a dog. 15 more can actually learn from someone, hard part is did they learn from someone that knows what they are doing, or not ? LOL

The rest are cluster****s that just watch some video (what are the odds it was good work) and go out and hack away at working the table, where it is easier to **** it up than if the dog is on the ground.

The 2 that can read a dog just ****ing get it. That is why the table is so controversial. There are so many vids out there where the idiot is not paying any attention at all to what is going on in the dogs head. NOT ONLY is he not reading the dog, he is not doing anything for a purpose.

Then you have the people that put the dog on the table and are not really stressing the dog, and are making it easier on the helper and the handler.

Gotta remember that everyone is a dog trainer, just ask them.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Don, I am telling you I have seen people do table work and it was perfect. absolutely perfect. Then there were the rest of them. I figure there are about 2 people out of a hundred that can just flat out read a dog. 15 more can actually learn from someone, hard part is did they learn from someone that knows what they are doing, or not ? LOL
> 
> The rest are cluster****s that just watch some video (what are the odds it was good work) and go out and hack away at working the table, where it is easier to **** it up than if the dog is on the ground.
> 
> ...



Table or not, you just described the whole dog training world. :lol:


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> Table or not, you just described the whole dog training world. :lol:


I believe you have a point there!


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

Don Turnipseed said:


> I think that goes back directly to the fact that it is hard to break a good dog. The dogs you mention would have probably been just as great if they had never seen a table. You can't assume they were great "because" of the table.



That's why i said it may just be trainer preference. I think Nate's article is the best on this issue.


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