# Standards for the Breed



## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

If new standards were to be created for the breed of dog you currently work, what changes would you want to see written? This could also be the return of older standards removed years ago.:-k

I see many folks who often advertise *German Shepherds* as "Big, Boned, Beauties" and other slick terms which don't follow either the standard or the function for working dogs...


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Howard Gaines III said:


> I see many folks who often advertise *German Shepherds* as "Big, Boned, Beauties" and other slick terms which don't follow either the standard or the function for working dogs...


:roll:#-o I know, right!!!

I think that they need to specify more clearly "not for the average home" on a lot more breeds. 
But, then again, how many potential owners do you think seriously go and research a breed after they see it on TV or something and before they actually go out and buy one?


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Very few...one of the reasons so many are in the pound!


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

There probably isn't any need to change the standards of various breeds - the problem is to find breed clubs, judges, etc. who are capable of adhering to them.

One example is the Bullmastiff - in it's Standard it states it is a Schutzhund - as such it must be tested for such but show me where in the World this is done.

As I say, the standards are most probably correct for many breeds, the problem lies in the execution of same.


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Howard Gaines III said:


> Very few...one of the reasons so many are in the pound!


Yes, which is why it is such a BIG responsibility of the breeder, seller, whatever.....to properly educate potential buyers, adopters, fosters, ect.... ](*,)


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Ding, ding, ding!
We have a winner! 
Even then the standards are always written where they are open to interpretation. What one breeder/judge/etc views as correct may never be agreeable to another. It's still a judgement call. 
The same thing goes in working lines.


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

Would changing the standard change anything? 

Breeders will cater to the market, and if the market demands 100+ lb "King Shepherds", someone is going to breed registerable GSDs to feed that demand. 

Same with any off standard feature. You want Blue Malinois? I got a breeder for you. Does it matter that blue is not considered breed standard? Nope, there's a buyer that wants that powder blue Mal puppy, not for any working potential, but because it's 'rare and unique'.

Mini Aussies, King Dobes, King Rotti (had a guy brag to me about his police trained 180 pounder, recently), Rare white Boxers, teacup Yorkies...


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Bob Scott said:


> Ding, ding, ding!
> We have a winner!
> Even then the standards are always written where they are open to interpretation. What one breeder/judge/etc views as correct may never be agreeable to another. It's still a judgement call.
> The same thing goes in working lines.


 Bob I agree as the same happens with waterfowl decoy carving and judging. I see it as a tool, others see it as art. What was the purpose of the creation???


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Howard Gaines III said:


> Bob I agree as the same happens with waterfowl decoy carving and judging. I see it as a tool, others see it as art. What was the purpose of the creation???



It doesn't matter what the venue is. As long as there is a "judgement" to be made, there will be disagreements on what is correct...or not. ;-)


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

standards should be loosened on physical aspects, and tightened in mental ones.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> It doesn't matter what the venue is. As long as there is a "judgement" to be made, there will be disagreements on what is correct...or not. ;-)


 
Most of the breed standars were established years ago when a dog was a 4-legged creature and not the fiction of some over zealous owner's mind.

Our first dog, bought in GB and flown out to us here (after seeing it as a pup) was a white and black Newfoundland. We duly joined the Newfoundland Club and what did we learn? Don't overdo the exercise (ok as a pup that could grow to 75 cm withers and 60-70 kilos, I concede). 

What made us wonder was that they told us the Newfoundland was not suitable for mountain hikes (which we were aching to do with it). We did it anyhow. The only let down I found was that he was not able (4 years' old) to follow me up a really steep hill scramble over foxholes, etc.). This was when I decided that the next dog would have to be as nimble as I was - we're going back a bit now:lol: However I had some good results in Swiss Working Trials with him.

The next dog, the Briard, was as nimble as a thimble!! He would climb up on to house high wood piles, letting us wonder where he was. He was one of 3 Briards to compete in IPO to level 3 and was the only one who had a stable character.

Over here the original working dog clubs, Rottweiler, Airedale, Beauceron, Briard, Boxer, Dobermann, Hoverwart, etc. have in my mind, maybe not intentionally, to ruin the dog but definitely have not furthered its success at Worlds or local (Swiss internal championships).

We now have a 5R Championship in Switzerland that caters to Rottweiler, Airedales, Dobermanns, Boxers and Giant Schnauzers. 

Only a very small number enter even national Championships although there is a Dobermann entering internationally but just with Dobermanns.

The Clubs organise the 5R and are happy with the lesser competition I guess. Better a big fish in a small pool than a small fish in a big pool. 

SAD


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Gillian Schuler said:


> I decided that the next dog would have to be as nimble as I was


 my dogs better be a hell of a lot more nimble than me


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Why? Wherever I go my dog has to be with me and vice versa but - I draw the line at sticking my nose into a fox hole ;-)


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Gillian Schuler said:


> Why? Wherever I go my dog has to be with me and vice versa but - I draw the line at sticking my nose into a fox hole ;-)


why? because I am NOT nimble..lol...


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

The DPCA (Doberman Pinscher Club of America) has just announced a motion that passed unanimously to disband the standard review committee because to paraphrase. the AKC standard is the only standard we will ever follow it is perfect and to have a review committee gives the false impression that we would ever change it. Does anyone wonder why the Dobermann and Doberman Pinscher have become separate breeds and the AKC Doberman Pinscher has lost every bit of working ability it ever had? :-(


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Temperament 
Energetic, watchful, *determined*, alert,* fearless*, loyal and obedient.

its right there in the AKC standard, what more do you need ?


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Gillian Schuler said:


> Why? Wherever I go my dog has to be with me and vice versa but - I draw the line at sticking my nose into a fox hole ;-)


Gillian, it's a lot easier to determine what's in the hole if you stick your nose in it. 
It's much more fun after you've dug a 4 ft hole and while your hanging upside down in the hole looking for the dog and a pissed off raccoon or a possum decides to use you for a ladder to get out. Not so much fun when the possum stops to piss on your back while it's climbing out. 
Been there done both! :grin:


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> Gillian, it's a lot easier to determine what's in the hole if you stick your nose in it.
> It's much more fun after you've dug a 4 ft hole and while your hanging upside down in the hole looking for the dog and a pissed off raccoon or a possum decides to use you for a ladder to get out. Not so much fun when the possum stops to piss on your back while it's climbing out.
> Been there done both! :grin:


You actually paid for that??? I like this new Barnhunt thingy. The rat is in a tube of some sorts.

T


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> You actually paid for that??? I like this new Barnhunt thingy. The rat is in a tube of some sorts.
> 
> T



Didn't pay for a thing. These were on natural hunts in the woods. I didn't plan it but having a critter run across you isn't all that uncommon when hunting in the ground with terriers. :twisted:
I've seen the barn hunt thing at Purina. The Missouri Earthdog folks usually have a big show/trial on Memorial Day weekend. I used to help judge the den trials and I've judged the terrier races twice for the JRTCA Nationals there.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> Didn't pay for a thing. These were on natural hunts in the woods. I didn't plan it but having a critter run across you isn't all that uncommon when hunting in the ground with terriers. :twisted:
> I've seen the barn hunt thing at Purina. The Missouri Earthdog folks usually have a big show/trial on Memorial Day weekend. I used to help judge the den trials and I've judged the terrier races twice for the JRTCA Nationals there.


 
I think I prefer sheep going over the top of me. The thought of a possum--uuugggghh!!! As far as I know, Barn Hunt is relatively knew and started in Columbia, MO--different from Earthdog.

T


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> I think I prefer sheep going over the top of me. The thought of a possum--uuugggghh!!! As far as I know, Barn Hunt is relatively knew and started in Columbia, MO--different from Earthdog.
> 
> T


As You know I've had the sheep run me over a time or two. I'll take the possum or raccoon. ;-)
Yes about the barn hunt being different from the earthdog trials. It WAS a barn hunt at Purina. It's been a couple of yrs ago so it was probably when the person in charge was getting it started. 
Bales of hay stacked up and a caged rat hidden somewhere in the bales and the dogs were timed as to how fast they found the rats. 
I've done a fair amount of natural barn hunting for raccoons. They can destroy the top layer of hay bales when they crap all over it. That can create illness in stock, in particular horses. The Raccoons will hole up in barns during the winter. I've seen 16 take out of one hay barn up in Iowa. At least with the Barn Hunt test your not tossing bales of hay all over the place. :lol:


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> As You know I've had the sheep run me over a time or two. I'll take the possum or raccoon. ;-)
> Yes about the barn hunt being different from the earthdog trials. It WAS a barn hunt at Purina. It's been a couple of yrs ago so it was probably when the person in charge was getting it started.
> Bales of hay stacked up and a caged rat hidden somewhere in the bales and the dogs were timed as to how fast they found the rats.
> I've done a fair amount of natural barn hunting for raccoons. They can destroy the top layer of hay bales when they crap all over it. That can create illness in stock, in particular horses. The Raccoons will hole up in barns during the winter. I've seen 16 take out of one hay barn up in Iowa. At least with the Barn Hunt test your not tossing bales of hay all over the place. :lol:


I think that's about when I heard about it. Now its an AKC title supposedly. Possums give me the creeps. Khaiba's sister was always killing them when we lived in the city. Lots of times they were bigger than she was. Luckily my next door neighbor loves to hunt. Newell and I flunked hunting. Neither one of us could shoot the fox that was showing up for my ducks. Although I wouldn't hesitate when it comes to the raccoons or foxes. Living next door to a hunter [15 ***** over a couple of days and 2 coyotes] has its benefits until he ask me to do penicillin injections. NO!!!


T


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> I think that's about when I heard about it. Now its an AKC title supposedly. Possums give me the creeps. Khaiba's sister was always killing them when we lived in the city. Lots of times they were bigger than she was. Luckily my next door neighbor loves to hunt. Newell and I flunked hunting. Neither one of us could shoot the fox that was showing up for my ducks. Although I wouldn't hesitate when it comes to the raccoons or foxes. Living next door to a hunter [15 ***** over a couple of days and 2 coyotes] has its benefits until he ask me to do penicillin injections. NO!!!
> 
> 
> T



Sissy! :lol: I give Thunder a weekly shot now. When I was actively hunting with earth dogs I got rabies shots for myself.


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