# Correcting a regripping issue



## Jenny Thorp (Nov 8, 2008)

Has always been a little bit of grip shifter when biting . 
I know realise I've added to the problem #-oand it has got much worse .
So I'm looking for thoughts/ideas on fixing things.
7 mth Dutchie in training for SchH.
Prefers to grip with the front half of his mouth ( not full like wanted for SchH ).
I was told to encourage him to regrip/counter and get the item in the back of his mouth ( full ) and let him win.
Well it appears now he thinks the grip shift is the game as I'm noticing a big increase in this behaviour.
I know grips are genetic so it may not be 100% fixable but I also feel I've significantly added to the issue.
Anything I can do to discourage this shifting grip and encourage a full one from the start ?


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## Max Orsi (May 22, 2008)

As you already noticed, rewrarding a dog after a regrip, only increases the " chewines" because the dog thinks is getting rewarded for that particular behaviour, same as rewarding with figth or play before the dog has demonstrated to understand what is getting rewarded for, a full calm grip.

It is not hard to fix gripping problems if the dog has a sound temperament, but is something that cannot be explained in writing on the internet.

I suggest you find a training decoy that knows how to develop better behaviours in the dog he trains.

Happy training

Max


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## jack van strien (Apr 9, 2009)

Jenny,
It is hard to say why the dog is behaving like this and it may or may not be genetic .Has he ever had a full bite at all?I mean without regripping?
If his temperment is sound i would not let him bite for awhile,teas him and let him see other dogs bite and then put him away.I guess by your writing you do not have a good helper but i can try and tell you what may work.When he is really worked up,you let him have a bite and if he does not bite full keep enough pressure on him so he can not get a better grip,if he rebites he will loose the sleeve and therefore game over.You have to be really carefull about how much pressure because it is still a young dog and it will be hard on the teeth if you know what i mean.
If he is biting full you reward him by doing what ever works for him.
Again a young dog like that i would tie him up and let him get very frustrated,don't let him bite for awhile.
Hope this helps you a little bit.
How do you let him regrip up to now?
If you give some more info it may be easier to give you some pointers.


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## Butch Cappel (Aug 12, 2007)

We use the inherent drives of a dog because they cause predictable, 'reactive' behaviors. Prey drive causes a dog to bite full, they don't think about it they just do it. If your decoy gets the Prey drive high enough they will bite full, period.

Once the bite is full and where you want it, give the dog a bite and you keep back pressure on the leash, even pulling back a little (this is what was done before we had bungees') if the backward pressure is correct the dog will bite harder to keep from losing his bite, which the re-grip might cause.

I do not subscribe to the "Bites are genetic" theory. I am very old school and follow the "Humans are supposed to be smarter than the dog" theory, which leaves no room for genetic excuses. We use drives because we are supposed to be smart enough to figure them out and because they cause a_ predictable, involuntary,_ reaction, Dog can't help, we get the type of bite we want. Just have your decoy work him appropriately. Prey for full, Defense for hard.


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## Sue Miller (Jul 21, 2009)

Try this:
http://www.harddogs.com/slv_shortie.html

This sleeve helped us--your dog has no other choice--he needs to grip full.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

Work him on a backtie and use a bite bar wedge, use a lot of back pressure to set his grip when he is full, if he tries to regrip he will lose the wedge.
You really need someone who understands this to help you fix it, but it can be improved with time and good work. A few bad sessions and he will be back to square one again though. So be smart about who you let work him.


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## Guest (Mar 11, 2010)

I'd also add to not push the dog SO so far once his grip is set that he feels overwhelmed and loses interest or goes into avoidance. I know some people would call that kinda dog a shitter but you work what you got so just be 100% "in it" when you work and build what's there.


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## Joel Alvarez (May 16, 2009)

Just for info from a beginner... Be careful with what biting material you use and/or the hardness of the sleeve. If the front teeth get hung up the dog will loosen his grip, not loose it completely and attempt to regrip again causing chewing.
Joel


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

You didn't give near enough information to tell you much of anything. 

Are you the one that is working this dog ??

What kind of item are you using ??

What lines does this dog come from ??

There are more I am sure, but once again the internet trainers have told you nothing. First thing they should have asked more questions.

Somehow, new people have gotten really bad information that they should be working their dog in bitework and drive building. That is the number one problem I see, as how are you supposed to do something correctly when you have no idea what correct is.

Here is another thing they should have requested, and that is a video of the problem. Who knows if your terminology is the same as theirs.

Some of these people shouldn't have said shit.


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## James Degale (Jan 9, 2009)

mike suttle said:


> Work him on a backtie and use a bite bar wedge, use a lot of back pressure to set his grip when he is full, if he tries to regrip he will lose the wedge.
> You really need someone who understands this to help you fix it, but it can be improved with time and good work. A few bad sessions and he will be back to square one again though. So be smart about who you let work him.


that is the way to solve it. 

give the dog easy bite presentation otherwise it will backfire and increase insecurity. to start no pressure from helper, work only in prey.


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## Guest (Mar 11, 2010)

Looks like she is referring to a sleeve. She doesn't use much terminology, Jeff, although your main point that there should be more info before advice given is well taken and valid.


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## Mike Lauer (Jul 26, 2009)

this helped me diagnose a problem

http://www.schutzhundvillage.com/grip.html

I'll give you 1 guess what the problem was......ME
good dog, bad handler
but that's how you learn


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: Originally Posted by mike suttle 
Work him on a backtie and use a bite bar wedge, use a lot of back pressure to set his grip when he is full, if he tries to regrip he will lose the wedge.
You really need someone who understands this to help you fix it, but it can be improved with time and good work. A few bad sessions and he will be back to square one again though. So be smart about who you let work him.


Quote: James Deagle: that is the way to solve it. 

give the dog easy bite presentation otherwise it will backfire and increase insecurity. to start no pressure from helper, work only in prey.



So what happens when there is no backpressure and the dog goes back to the original behavior ?? How many months does this training need to go on ?? 

What was it that caused the original behavior in the first place ?? ARE YOU SURE ??

Work only in prey. What happens to this plan when the dog doesn't see it that way ?

What happens when the dog after a few times of losing it from all the backpressure, and stops holding on ??

Nice answers. I see you covered all the bases. LOL 

For the OP, try and find someone to work with, and don't work your own dog. If working with your dog yourself is your only option, then maybe you put up a video of what you are doing, and don't worry if it is good or bad, just what you are doing. Anyone that can answer that question in three sentences is not even going to be close.


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## Butch Cappel (Aug 12, 2007)

Great basic questions that the OP may be asking, so if the back tie,
positive/prey build, folks don't mind I'll give it a try at answering. Let's see the first question is; 
_So what happens when there is no backpressure and the dog goes back to the original behavior ?? How many months does this training need to go on ??_ If you have trained properly and enough, you have created what is often referred to as "Muscle Memory" and the dog no longer needs back pressure. That is why we call it "training" the dog is building a "conditioned response." 

How many months does it take? Well each dog is different, like each fighter is different, but generally 60-90 days will give a boxer a knock out Right Cross or a dog a really full hard bite. But they both take time, which is why it is referred to as "training" and not "downloading the program" 

_What was it that caused the original behavior in the first place ?? ARE YOU SURE ??_ The dogs was not as high in Prey drive as it could have been when starting. Sort of like walking out on the half time pep-talk before the coach is finished talking, your just not quite as enthused as the rest of the team. Bad muscle memory was started
and the dogs "training" (there's that word again) reinforced it. *"ARE YOU SURE??"* Actually Yes, I am! (I don't really need videos)

_Work only in prey. What happens to this plan when the dog doesn't see it that way ?_ Dog doesn't have that choice, Pavlov feeds dog and rings a bell, dog salivates then eats. REPEAT many times. Pavlov RINGS BELL and dog salivates. It is called conditioned response, it is a result of training.  But wait, I already said that, sorry. 

_What happens when the dog after a few times of losing it from all the backpressure, and stops holding on ??_ Again, see all of the above, I mean we ain't rebuilding the pyramids here, It's a dog, it's _Training!_ (there's that word again)

_"Nice answers. I see you covered all the bases. LOL"_
Thank U, Thank uu, Thankuveraaamuch!

Butch Cappel
http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f13/correcting-regripping-issue-14538/www.k9ps.com


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## Sue DiCero (Sep 2, 2006)

7 mos. Getting over teething, goofy age and training.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

If the dog has the drive to bite and good nerves his grip can be improved from a back tie and going back to early foundation work with a tug, progressing to a bite wedge. When he fully understands how to bite correctly then go back to a sleeve.


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## Jenny Thorp (Nov 8, 2008)

Thanks for the discussion everyone.
Sorry for the lack of details.......... that's what happens when I'm leaving for work and decide to ask the group a question. 

So more details ...............

No, I'm not working him myself, I've weekly training with a local SchH group.

My unclear question was more geared to playing tug with him, though he isn't really much of a tugger . Loves to chase and bite.
VERY chewy/grip shifting on a bite suit material or jute tug . 
Just switched to a hard jute bite roll, much better. Though still prefers to shift the bite roll to the front of his mouth after the initial grip.
I was told to freeze the bite object and when he regrips with it in the back of his mouth release it ( reward ). I can now see this may not have been the best idea for this particular dog.
Was mildly chewy on a rag/sack at training sessions as a little pup and wasn't worked for quite some time as he was the worlds longest teething dutchie :?
Just started pillow work at SchH training and he is much much better at gripping that fully without changing/shifting his grip.
He is from KNPV lines.
Prey drives flips on high and fast but also seems to switch off very quickly too. Not sure if that makes sense. He ( to this novice ) seems to have a more serious side to him. Though at 7mths I know he is still just a pup.
I'm not in any rush. 
He appears to be a nice stable boy with good nerves.
Hope the above info is of some help.
Thankyou all for sharing your thoughts.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Sue DiCero said:


> 7 mos. Getting over teething, goofy age and training.



Glad to see someone addressing the age issue! :wink:


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

For starters why a Dutch for Schutzhund they don't bite for shit on a sleeve lotso work to make proper griping and lotso maintenance and it helps allot if your helpers understand the dog and how to work them they ain't natural for Schutzhund. I've seen helpers that know how to work these dogs poor the shit to what appeared to be a weak dog and get some nice results. Like I said the helper knew exactly what he was doing and what the dog was doing.
And the age of your dog should be a consideration.


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## Max Orsi (May 22, 2008)

I completely disagre on the back tied with back pressure work, I would not use the technique with a full grown dog, definitely not with a young one.

Muscle memory as mention in a previous post, includes all the stimulous received, including the back pressure, in the absence of one of the stimulous the behaviour reverses.

As I said, the internet is no place to give training suggestions in writing.

If it was my dog, I would teach him/her to hold a full grip, rewarding it with play/fight (gentle)

The dog needs to understand that in order to play/fight with decoy or handler he's needs to exibit the basic behaviour of bitework, a nice full calm grip.

Just as in any ob exercises, the more you reward a behaviour the more it reoccurs.

If the back pressure teory was good you could use it to teach the dog to heel by keep him in such a short leash by not being able to loose the position, therfore after a time period by "muscle memory" the dog should be able to heel on his own.

The truth is it would not, because the stimulous(short leash hold) is removed.

Happy training

Max


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## Mario Fernandez (Jun 21, 2008)

You may want to make a road trip to WA and see Les Flores or go see John Riboni at Placer County Schutzhund Club as well as maybe see Lucillano Oliva in No CA.


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