# Teaching the dog to hold the dumbbell



## Ben Colbert (Mar 9, 2010)

How do you guys start teaching a fresh, green dog the hold?

I've started working on it with my dog and a wood dow rod but was curious how everyone else did it.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Ben Colbert said:


> How do you guys start teaching a fresh, green dog the hold?
> 
> I've started working on it with my dog and a wood dow rod but was curious how everyone else did it.


There are many many ways to do this and if you don't have someone to help you or a club. Buy Ivans video and follow the steps and it will work. If you don't like how your dog works its a great foundation to go in another direction.
Now this is only a second or third hand information I got I'll call it a rumor but I heard a big part of Ivans shitty obedience score this weekend was dew to big troubles with the dumb bells.
So you can take my advice for what its worth.:|


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kSZEF_ATgcM

this is when I was shaping the behavior for the retrieve and it's one of the very first sessions with him. 

I rarely use a dumb bell right now. Basically, if I throw something the dog is expected to come, sit in front of me and hold it. I do it with the kong because it's something he like to chew, but notice that I only mark it when he is NOT chewing, his reward is a quick game of tug. This method translated to all other objects and now he doesn't chew on anything.


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## Tracey Hughes (Jul 13, 2007)

Hi Ben-

With the last few dogs I have started the hold with a white plastic AKC type dumbell. I have just begun this with my 5 month old American Bulldog and she is now taking it on command and holding it calmly for about 3-5 seconds in front of me. I used to use my dumbells as “toys” but have stopped doing that now as I want the dogs to learn the calm hold on the dumbell, the bring, and the front before I add chasing of the dumbell. Once the dog can bring a “dead” dumbell to me from the ground in any position I place it and be calm then I will introduce short tosses.

I did a similar technique on my 3 year old Malinois bitch and she has a nice quick, calm retrieve. Time will tell if it will work on this pup.


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## Ben Colbert (Mar 9, 2010)

So I borrowed Ivan's video on retrieves and have attempted the method and so far so good. Its only been two days but I'm far more pleased with the method than my previous attempts. I had to take it a bit slower than Ivan did with his dogs though. It looked something like this:

Hold the dogs moth closed with nothing in it
Put my finger in his mouth behind his canines while hold it closed
Put a plastic pen in his mouth and hold it closed
Put wooden dowel in his mouth and hold it closed

I've gotten to leaving the dowel in his mouth and supporting his head with my hand underneath his mouth and stroking his nose.

After each correct repetition (not spitting out object or actively resisting inserting object) I released the dog and allowed him to get treats that had been waiting in a bowl at my feet.

Not bad.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Ben, I started mine about the same way. I just began it it little over a week ago and didn't feel that qualified me to offer input so I didn't comment. But to add my two cents since we're both around the same place with our dogs, from the onset, I tried to keep myself out of the picture as much as possible and by that I meant my own reinforcements ( I did use a lead however), stroking, etc. I've seen people mess about with the dog after for various reason which I can both appreciate and respect but I had hoped that if I didn't need to go there I'd not bother it from the start. If that makes any sense. I just mean I know my dog well enough to know that if I start stroking her head or bumping around on the dumbbell it'll set us back. That is not to say that I feel where we are at is weak and she could easily be influenced backwards but what I mean is I feel that the approach was clear from the onset, I also like how solid the dumbbell feels when I approach her to take it from her. There's no question that she's holding it firmly so I don't see any reason to start pounding around on it to test her at this point. Her grip appears to be correct, calm, and firm and at the moment I am satisfied with what I have. Perhaps this isn't the correct attitude to have? I honestly couldn't tell you but I am sure if it's not someone will clarify what should be occurring.

I'm not training the dog for SchH but did approach it as if I were formally teaching the exercise. More than anything I was curious about how it would go because eventually, I will have a dog that I'd legitimately have to work through this with.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

No offense but I think this one of the most over thought things in the schH. Have you ever taught a pet dog to balance a treat on it's nose..... I think the hold is that easy to teach. Just tell them to get it, and when they spit it, tell them no, and tell them to get it again. Then build duration.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

James Downey said:


> No offense but I think this one of the most over thought things in the schH. Have you ever taught a pet dog to balance a treat on it's nose..... I think the hold is that easy to teach. Just tell them to get it, and when they spit it, tell them no, and tell them to get it again. Then build duration.


Ah, who'd take offense to that? Clearly, it's easy to train and I'd agree after watching other people do it and hearing apprehension from others to just move on with it on their own, once I tried it myself I really had to wonder what the hoopla was about. I figured I either built it up in my head to be something it's not or must have done something wrong from the start. But yes, from my very limited experience your assessment does appear to be correct. In the end, it sorta seemed a little like a stupid pet trick.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

And if they chew....let em'. don't say no, don't touch em', do not touch the dumb bell. Just wait....and wait....and sooner or later if they want thier ball, they will stop chewing.


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## Mary Buck (Apr 7, 2010)

For Comp obedience it can be less problematic to backchain the behavior. Start with the hold. Quick and easy way for most of us is to sit in a chair...with dog backed in between legs...that way you don't have to deal with dog moving backwards from you ...and you can keep head high enough to have gravity help build duration . Speed and drive get added in once the hold is rock solid . Alot of chomping hectic stuff happens when the hold is not built carefully enough . 

For a dog thats got a great strong hold and still is chomping I have indeed taught dog to hold cookie on nose..and not release until told. Once this is established behavior chain I will add in dumbell. Dog will concentrate so much on the cookie/nose portion of the scenario that it cannot chomp or roll the DB. Take DB..release to flip and eat cookie . Great stuff to work on crappy weather days becuase you don't need much room. 

Comp Obedience stuff....but helpful for any retrieve work .


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## Denise Picicci (Sep 9, 2007)

Here is a video showing of my then 8mo old teaching him to hold for the first time. Just thought it might help seeing something. He is 12mo old now and holds very calm with no chewing. Hope to get some video soon of what where we are now.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VcW3rV8SoAc


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## Olga Sukonnikova (Apr 16, 2009)

Ben Colbert said:


> How do you guys start teaching a fresh, green dog the hold?
> 
> I've started working on it with my dog and a wood dow rod but was curious how everyone else did it.


Ben, I would recommend using a clicker.

Though when I trained my dog in SchH I knew nothing about training with clicker. My dog loved the thing the moment he saw it - he took the dumbbell & was walking around with the thing in his mouth & looked very proud.

http://www.workingdogforum.com/gallery/showimage.php?i=3261&catid=member&imageuser=6965

There was some period when he suddenly seemed to lose interest in the process. Then I took him by the collar & kicked the dumbbell aside several times - he got interested again (he is rather greedy for everything that I don't want to give to him  ).

Now I train the dog in Mondio Ring where dogs have to retrieve different things and I use clicker with new objects. One needs to be patient if the dog doesn't like some things, but it's worth it, really! First I taught the dog what clicker means: Click! - a treat, Click! - a treat. He had his supper this way during three evenings. Then... I think it would be better to find the videos I used to learn the method. Here is one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cAtDw87bhcw

Good luck!


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Olga, I started out with the clicker and could quickly see that this would not achieve quite the results I wanted. It would get me in the ball park for sure but I wanted something more solid. In the video I posted show the results of her messing about with the dumbbell with the little broken stumps on the ends from her half hearted attempts at holding it. 

Everything else I've done with her has been clicker trained, including the retrieve and tracking but for this exercise I made a decision to go about it differently and I am glad I did. In about 10 minutes I got what I set out to achieve and afterwards felt good about the decision to approach it that way. With my next dog I intend to train it through the methods I've used all along (clicker). 

To the lady who posted her video here of the GSD, I was wondering does permitting him to drop it serve a role in the exercise? I know everyone trains this a little bit differently so I am interested in learning about his dropping it upon release rather than you taking it directly from him as you would in a trial and then releasing him.


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Nicole Stark said:


> To the lady who posted her video here of the GSD, I was wondering does permitting him to drop it serve a role in the exercise? I know everyone trains this a little bit differently so I am interested in learning about his dropping it upon release rather than you taking it directly from him as you would in a trial and then releasing him.


I don't want to answer for Denise, but I let my dog drop it after the bridge (click or mark) also.

What is being marked is the calm hold....and the mark or click ends the behavior. No mark or click, no end to the behavior of holding. 

If you "out" the dog...ie have the dog release it to your hand...what you may be doing is marking/rewarding the "out" not the "hold". Now the "hold" is no longer isolated as what you are working on.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Jennifer Coulter said:


> I don't want to answer for Denise, but I let my dog drop it after the bridge (click or mark) also.
> 
> What is being marked is the calm hold....and the mark or click ends the behavior. No mark or click, no end to the behavior of holding.
> 
> If you "out" the dog...ie have the dog release it to your hand...what you may be doing is marking/rewarding the "out" not the "hold". Now the "hold" is no longer isolated as what you are working on.



Bingo! 
The hold and the out are taught as two completely different exercises.


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## Denise Picicci (Sep 9, 2007)

Thanks for answering the question Jennifer, you are correct in what you stated.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

I do understand the idea behind isolating the behaviors. I chose not to and am wondering if I were really training a dog for the dumbbell routine in SchH what drawbacks would there be in not isolating them at the onset. This is what I mean, at the moment I take it from her when she is released rather than allowing her to drop it. That action is not associated with a command and she is released before I take it but the timing is just right so rather than dropping it, I end up with it. I didn't see this as training two separate exercises but rather a different option to the dumbbell hitting the ground.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

"That action is not associated with a command"
Nichole, that's the key to what your doing but your catching it is still not an out command, as you stated. 
I'm not concerned with anything that happens after I mark the hold behaviour so a drop or a catch would be ok (with me). 
The catch would make it easier on my old back though. :wink:


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Thanks for commenting Bob. I did it that way because my dog is a dropper and has no interest in keeping objects in her mouth so the purpose of me not letting it hit the ground was simply for that reason - to never let her realize that it was ok to for the dumbbell to be on the ground specifically when sitting directly in front of me. I looked at it as a situational exercise as in there was context associated with it. If that makes any sense. 

With a different type of dog, I probably wouldn't need to bother with that kind of thought process. It just seemed easier to me to keep that option out of the picture from the get go.

Denise and Jennifer, thanks for commenting as well.


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## Ben Colbert (Mar 9, 2010)

Jennifer Coulter said:


> I don't want to answer for Denise, but I let my dog drop it after the bridge (click or mark) also.
> 
> What is being marked is the calm hold....and the mark or click ends the behavior. No mark or click, no end to the behavior of holding.
> 
> If you "out" the dog...ie have the dog release it to your hand...what you may be doing is marking/rewarding the "out" not the "hold". Now the "hold" is no longer isolated as what you are working on.


Couldn't one argue that by chaining the behaviors, the out becomes a marker of sorts? Lets say you only out the dog when he has a firm, calm hold and after the out you release the dog to get the reward. Wouldn't the dog look forward to outing and therefore hold the dumbbell calmly (as thats the only way to achieve an out)?

I'm not sure the technical name but I know thta you can build drive for an activity by linking it with another activity that the dog already has drive for. For example the dog loves the sendout (because of the toy waiting at then end) and by enforceing a heel before then sendout you build drive and intensity in the heel (sometimes too much).


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Nicole Stark said:


> Thanks for commenting Bob. I did it that way because my dog is a dropper and has no interest in keeping objects in her mouth so the purpose of me not letting it hit the ground was simply for that reason - to never let her realize that it was ok to for the dumbbell to be on the ground specifically when sitting directly in front of me. I looked at it as a situational exercise as in there was context associated with it. If that makes any sense.
> 
> With a different type of dog, I probably wouldn't need to bother with that kind of thought process. It just seemed easier to me to keep that option out of the picture from the get go.
> 
> Denise and Jennifer, thanks for commenting as well.





Ben Colbert said:


> Couldn't one argue that by chaining the behaviors, the out becomes a marker of sorts? Lets say you only out the dog when he has a firm, calm hold and after the out you release the dog to get the reward. Wouldn't the dog look forward to outing and therefore hold the dumbbell calmly (as thats the only way to achieve an out)?
> 
> I'm not sure the technical name but I know thta you can build drive for an activity by linking it with another activity that the dog already has drive for. For example the dog loves the sendout (because of the toy waiting at then end) and by enforceing a heel before then sendout you build drive and intensity in the heel (sometimes too much).


I am not a beleiver that there is only one way to do things. I just had to figure out what worked for me...and this dog I had...that liked to drop stuff. I have tried lots of different things with my first dog as I was learning about training and figuring out what was going to get me to my goal. 

An example of why I chose to let the item drop sometimes...I don't expect that this would be the case for a bunch of other dogs...just a personal example of me and my dog learning together when we were trying to figure this stuff out...

When I started the hold work, I was doing as you were, and always taking it from the dog. I guess my timing was mediocre in that I would mark for the good hold..."yes", and be reaching for the retrieve item at the same time.

Otherwise if I said "yes", then reached for the item, it would hit the floor.

So what happened is that my dog started to see the physical act of me reaching for it as the cue to let go and get the reward....marker be damned.

Not that that really matters, or would be bad at all, except that my dog was not holding items that firmly, and I wanted to be able to tap/or tug the item in the dogs mouth to encourage the dog to grip it more tightly...but every time I would reach for the item, he would let go, as he anticipated the end of the excersise and the reward. 

So that is when I actually started to just mark the hold seperately, and let him drop it to the ground. Then the dog learned for realsies that it doesn't matter what I do with my hands, body so on, the hold ends when either the marker is given, or the out is given. Over some reps I had to teach him that I could reach, touch, tap the item, and he shouldn't just let go.

I still do catch it sometimes...to avoid haveing to pick it up...but at least now the dog understands what is expected better.

I am by NO means suggesting that a person must let the item drop, or must do anything a certain way...I am in the whatever works for you and your dog camp. I am still learning a lot about the retrieve really, and hoping that I made enough mistakes on my first dog, to have less speedbumps and a good plan for teaching this to the new pup.


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Jennifer Coulter said:


> I am not a beleiver that there is only one way to do things. I just had to figure out what worked for me...and this dog I had...that liked to drop stuff. I have tried lots of different things with my first dog as I was learning about training and figuring out what was going to get me to my goal.


re: dropping the item

my rottie used to do that at first and then when I went to using objects other than the dumb bell and started using items that I could use for tugging. 

I posted a video of my teaching the Mal with the kong on a rope. I'll try to take another video of where he is with the dumb bell now. In short, he doesn't chew and generally expects a game of tug. You need to have a solid OUT command so the tug will out when you need it. I unintentionally train the retrieve everyday. It's a habit for both of my dogs to fetch and bring them to me in a formal fashion. It doesn't matter what the object it thought I usually use something I can tug with but if I use a ball or frisbee, I will ask them to OUT, sit there for a minute and then Fuss before I throw it again. If they get slow in their return to me, I simply run away from them. 

I also practice turning my back to them and still force them to come around and present the object to me formally.


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Chris Michalek said:


> re: dropping the item
> 
> my rottie used to do that at first and then when I went to using objects other than the dumb bell and started using items that I could use for tugging.
> 
> ...


Yes, I did that too. Worked very well for me. I also have video somewere. It is a great strategy for a lot of our SAR members that have dogs that drop the item. They will hold if they expect a game of tug. You are right the out has to be good.

I also use a tug as a reward (in place of food) for less desirable retrieve items. (after the mark)

We are lucky that for our test, we don't have to use a dumbell, there are various items allowed. Tuggable ones too! The hold for a session of tug is a good way to go for many of us. There is no points in it for us either...just pass or fail. 

Not sure about how comp ob or Sch people feel about that though. I know you are marking only the calm part, but I think some people might be still worried about the chewing with this method.

I personally have a different set of rules for my formal and informal retrieves. Informal, the dog must just deliver to hand that is it, no other rules or cues. My dog likes to shake items when he gets them and chew/play with them some in his informal retrieves...so I don't like to mix them. For the formal the dog is cued by starting at the sit stay at heel. No matter the item thrown, he knows that he must retrieve it formally to front. I do a fair bit of just having the dog do the "return" part of the retrieve too.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Ben Colbert said:


> I'm not sure the technical name but I know thta you can build drive for an activity by linking it with another activity that the dog already has drive for.


Right, and I agree. I don't have an outlet of play with my dog, food is all I have to work with so the dumbbell work is being done prior to feeding. The second day I had the dumbbell out she took it on her own and then stood on her hind legs with it in her mouth as she had her front feet up on the front of the boat. She was watching me peel the rest of the salmon off the bone while she was holding the dumbbell. A few nights ago she had it and was running circles around the boat and jumping over the tongue of the hitch all the while holding it calmly. Surely the relationship of the object to feeding time is relevant to her behavior.


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Nicole Stark said:


> Right, and I agree. I don't have an outlet of play with my dog, food is all I have to work with so the dumbbell work is being done prior to feeding. The second day I had the dumbbell out she took it on her own and then stood on her hind legs with it in her mouth as she had her front feet up on the front of the boat. She was watching me peel the rest of the salmon off the bone while she was holding the dumbbell. A few nights ago she had it and was running circles around the boat and jumping over the tongue of the hitch all the while holding it calmly. Surely the relationship of the object to feeding time is relevant to her behavior.


Sounds cool!


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