# Any of you train in dog parks?



## Fred Hassen

Yes, I am aware of not so obedient dogs in them, in case you were wondering. Just wondering if anyone uses them for some of your training. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Sj22JSQ9Zk


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## Chris Michalek

I do but not often. I train like you do in the vid, lots of focus under distraction, long sit and long down. I also train in Malls, School grounds and the Airport.


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## Fred Hassen

Chris Michalek said:


> I do but not often. I train like you do in the vid, lots of focus under distraction, long sit and long down. I also train in Malls, School grounds and the Airport.


I was just checking out your video. Very good job! Looks like a really cool dog! Thanks for sharing that, I'll definetly be checking out some of your posts.


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## Tanya Whelan-Velasco

wow that is very impressive.. i have a 16 week mali pup i am working in pp.. How did you get him to do that? how can i start this with her.. i take her with me everywhere and she focus's on me when at a park playing ball but wow thats so amazing!!! Great job!!


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## brad robert

nice work that dog has great focus and drive under some taxing conditions


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## Chris McDonald

Why does this guy always have a remote control in his hands everyplace he goes? I don’t see no tv around?


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## Angie Stark

I guess if you're using that situation for a training tool, it's good but if you can only get that focus from the dog with the ecollar....Im not a trainer and I can do that.


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## Timothy Stacy

The difference is that you guys are in it for the long haul with your dogs. When Fred ruins one he goes and gets another!


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## Ben Colbert

Am I the only one getting super annoyed by this guy? The vast majority of his posts are just thinly veiled advertisements. He has not provided one bit of real information. It's getting old.

Just for example he asks a question in his title but provides no information on why he trains in dog parks, what he hopes to acomplish or even how he does it (specifically).


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## Angie Stark

Ben Colbert said:


> The vast majority of his posts are just thinly veiled advertisements


I wouldn't even say "thinly veiled", it's pretty obvious they are ads


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## Dave Cartier

Ben Colbert said:


> Am I the only one getting super annoyed by this guy? The vast majority of his posts are just thinly veiled advertisements. He has not provided one bit of real information. It's getting old.
> 
> Just for example he asks a question in his title but provides no information on why he trains in dog parks, what he hopes to acomplish or even how he does it (specifically).


They are not thinly veiled. This is marketing. 

Fred. Can you explain to trainers of the forum HOW you accomplish this attention heeling without signing up for lessons from you or your marketing partners? 

I thought that this is how this forum works. Trainers helping other trainers. Not just posting video with the "Logo" plastered everywhere with no explanation of how.

What form of controlled scientific data can you provide on your method. Skinner had volumes of data to prove the hypothesis. Not an explanation of "it just works" 

Care to define your method using operant conditioning parameters? 

How is an aversive like electrical stimulation be perceived as positive? Not going to argue. Just would like to know because I like to learn.

btw: I do use, and teach e-collar use to my customers using escape avoidance method.


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## Angie Stark

I use an ecollar as well but it's a training tool, not an end result.


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## Chris Michalek

I wouldn't mind seeing a vid of Fred working on the same thing without an ecollar. How does he do in the same scenario as the vid I recently posted without the ecollar and without a leash?


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## Fred Hassen

Chris Michalek said:


> I wouldn't mind seeing a vid of Fred working on the same thing without an ecollar. How does he do in the same scenario as the vid I recently posted without the ecollar and without a leash?



Hi Chris! Here are a couple vids without a collar on, and if you click on where it says "HERE", it will explain what we believe about all training aids.......clickers, cookies, ecollars, and your kong etc. http://www.sitmeanssit.com/dog-training-videos/bo-working-without-remote-electronic-collar-on/

I am a strong believer in trials, and not having equipment on the dog.
In the past 2 years, my current sport/venue of choice has been Dock Dogs and .......hunt tests which I certainly believe are as hard as any sport out there, and have way more people in it, and the dogs certainly have to have off leash control and are not allowed to use a collar on the day of the test. 

I believe that any trial/test is difficult, and those that think they are not should get out there and do them. You know what it's like, they see a sport that they don't currently do and say 'I can do that with no problem'.......to them I say try it and tell us your scores.

I currently have videos on our site of 2 perfect AKC Obedience scores in the highest division of Rally, Myself at the world championships in Dock Dogs where I placed 2nd in 2 of the events. One of my partners that took 1st at the dock dogs worlds, my wife who is on one of the best flyball teams around, A Sit Means Sit Police trainer who took 5th at the USPCA Nationals, 3 Jr. Hunt tests and 1 Senior test, one of our other SMS trainers setting the indoor world record for 'big air'. We do have videos on all that at the actual trials and I'm sure I am missing some but you can't have a collar on there. Another SMS trainer took 3rd 2 years ago at the USPCA Nationals but I don't have the video. I can post whichever of those videos you like to see.


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## Ben Colbert

Fred,

You pick one post and then refuse to reply to mine? I was willing to give you the benefit of the doubt when your first post was an advertisement. Now I'm over it. This is a community. People are here for two reasons...to learn and to help others. You are here for neither. You have not asked for any advice and you have given none.

I would encourage you to actually be a part of the community or leave. I would also hope the mods see this for the spam it is and start deleting it. In the mean time I'll be blocking you .


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## Timothy Stacy

Ben I feel the same about this snake oil salesman!

I wake up in the morning let the dogs out, play with my daughter while my wife showers and try to squeeze in breakfast before the 8 to 6 job. Come home and let the dogs out before dinner, try and fix up my new old house to get on he cover of Home and Garden, eat and maybe if I'm lucky I get to do some training!!! Probably like most of the people on here, I'm a part timer when it comes to this training! 

Fred since this is your full time job maybe you can tell people how much work and time you get to put into your flavor of the month dog in a given day. Oh I forgot you go to your SMS training seminars where you get to work your dog even more.

So buyer beware this is not a fast training method, what he is doing it's deceptive way to make you think there is some quick and better way! Sorry Fred I'm not blown away by your amazing talent!

"SIT MEANS SIT DOG TRAINING with Fred HASSEN"


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## Anne Vaini

Looks like an exercise in "capping drive". That dog looks like a shook up soda bottle that is ready to explode.

How about calm, controlled and off leash in a dog park? 

I know I've posted this video before of my little dog-aggressive pit bull training in the dog park here. But for Fred's benefit...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xvLynTLexoI


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## Anne Vaini

Tanya Whelan-Velasco said:


> wow that is very impressive.. i have a 16 week mali pup i am working in pp.. How did you get him to do that? how can i start this with her.. i take her with me everywhere and she focus's on me when at a park playing ball but wow thats so amazing!!! Great job!!


Hi Tanya - I'll tell you how I trained my dog. I started clicker training at 6 weeks old. It is so simple. Keep her on a long leash, click when she looks at you and reward with her favorite thing. She'll start to choose to look at you.

At first, I want to teach the dog that looking at me is a good choice. (Whatever is rewarded will be repeated.) Later, I teach the dog that looking away is a bad choice. At the end, I teach the dog that looking away is not an option.


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## Fred Hassen

Anne Vaini said:


> Looks like an exercise in "capping drive". That dog looks like a shook up soda bottle that is ready to explode.
> 
> How about calm, controlled and off leash in a dog park?
> 
> I know I've posted this video before of my little dog-aggressive pit bull training in the dog park here. But for Fred's benefit...
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xvLynTLexoI


Hi Anne, , cute dog that is obedient. I like more energy. In other words........'put some soda bottle in that dog'. Just kidding of course, I loved your soda bottle comment. I think it's fantastic that you are training in dog parks and you are doing a very good job and need to be commended. Thank you very much for taking the time to not only take your dog to the dog park and video it, but to show the world that there are many ways to train a dog and to continue to give the consumer a choice on which way he/she chooses to train. We all learn through comparison. Thanks again.


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## Fred Hassen

Angie Stark said:


> I guess if you're using that situation for a training tool, it's good but if you can only get that focus from the dog with the ecollar....Im not a trainer and I can do that.


Hi Angie, that is fantastic!! It would be great to see more of your dogs in this 'video section' so I could learn more about you. I am certainly learning more about the people posting when I see their dogs in this section. I'm sure you have much to offer.


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## Gerry Grimwood

Consumer, no veil there.

Annes training looks more realistic to me and you're not forced to listen to that techno crap music.


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## Chris Michalek

Fred Hassen said:


> Hi Chris! Here are a couple vids without a collar on, and if you click on where it says "HERE", it will explain what we believe about all training aids.......clickers, cookies, ecollars, and your kong etc. http://www.sitmeanssit.com/dog-training-videos/bo-working-without-remote-electronic-collar-on/



Fred, I don't know what to say but that simply is NOT good training. Your timing is piss poor, the double and triple commands, unnecessary commands, meaningless commands, tons body cues, allowing the dog to self reward, giving the command after the dog has offered the behavior, rewarding the dog for releasing before you said "break". 

Care to explain this? Perhaps this is some kind of new revolutionary way of training? :-k


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## Timothy Stacy

Fred Hassen said:


> Hi Anne, , cute dog that is obedient. I like more energy. In other words........'put some soda bottle in that dog'. Just kidding of course, I loved your soda bottle comment. I think it's fantastic that you are training in dog parks and you are doing a very good job and need to be commended. Thank you very much for taking the time to not only take your dog to the dog park and video it, but to show the world that there are many ways to train a dog and to continue to give the consumer a choice on which way he/she chooses to train. We all learn through comparison. Thanks again.


Comments like this seem pretty disingenuous and transparent, sort of like a sleazy used car salesmen trying to play the nice honest guy role. Maybe some underlying sarcasm there too!


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## Carol Boche

I must be a bad handler/trainer. The only thing I use an e-collar for is so my dogs do not kill small, fast, furry animals.


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## Fred Hassen

Carol Boche said:


> I must be a bad handler/trainer. The only thing I use an e-collar for is so my dogs do not kill small, fast, furry animals.



Probably big ones also. :wink:


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## Carol Boche

Nope....they leave the deer and what not alone, even though they would like to, they know what "leave it" means. My older Mal is a cat, rabbit, small dog killer....the GSD mauls the cats, so they wear the collar....Bloodhound and Dutchie could care less, and the pup already knows "leave it" and she recalls off anything with the whistle (right now).


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## Chris Michalek

Fred, 

many of us are waiting for an explanation on your dog training methods in the video I commented on. Surely you must feel you're a top notch trainer if you feel the right to condescend people like Anne Vaini. So let's hear the explanation on why double commands and inconsistent timing and constant body cues is a good form of training. 

I love to learn and am always open to top notch trainers so explain this method you're using.

Thanks.


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## Dave Cartier

Dave Cartier said:


> They are not thinly veiled. This is marketing.
> 
> Fred. Can you explain to trainers of the forum HOW you accomplish this attention heeling without signing up for lessons from you or your marketing partners?
> 
> I thought that this is how this forum works. Trainers helping other trainers. Not just posting video with the "Logo" plastered everywhere with no explanation of how.
> 
> What form of controlled scientific data can you provide on your method. Skinner had volumes of data to prove the hypothesis. Not an explanation of "it just works"
> 
> Care to define your method using operant conditioning parameters?
> 
> How is an aversive like electrical stimulation be perceived as positive? Not going to argue. Just would like to know because I like to learn.
> 
> btw: I do use, and teach e-collar use to my customers using escape avoidance method.


:-\"

Hey Fred,

Any thought on the above question? I actually would like to hear your response. I have always kept an open mind about any training method to see if it can benefit or compliment my "tool bag". From Richard Wolters and Mike Lardy, to Bernhard Flinks, and Mike Ellis there is something to be learned from all good trainers. 

You have answered most all others question with yet another video.

I have to go train with a first time customer. I hope to read your answer soon.

Thank you for your time.


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## Chris Michalek

Dave Cartier said:


> :-\"
> 
> Hey Fred,
> 
> Any thought on the above question? I actually would like to hear your response. I have always kept an open mind about any training method to see if it can benefit or compliment my "tool bag". From Richard Wolters and Mike Lardy, to Bernhard Flinks, and Mike Ellis there is something to be learned from all good trainers.
> 
> You have answered most all others question with yet another video.
> 
> I have to go train with a first time customer. I hope to read your answer soon.
> 
> Thank you for your time.



To my eyes, Fred hasn't accomplished anything as long as a compulsive device is available. Lets see how the dog does with out the e-collar. I bet the same dog can't do it. My video shows that it can be done. Let's see it Fred.


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## Fred Hassen

Chris Michalek said:


> To my eyes, Fred hasn't accomplished anything as long as a compulsive device is available. Lets see how the dog does with out the e-collar. I bet the same dog can't do it. My video shows that it can be done. Let's see it Fred.


That same dog.......I suspect you are referring to 'Bubba' in the dog park video, has been gone for a few years. That video is 5-6 years old. As I said earlier, I commend everyone that is trialing their dogs as competing without aids or equipment is certainly a great test and I am presently competitive in 2 different things as I posted some of these on a different post.

Obviously hunt tests and field trials are a much, much, much bigger arena than any protection sport. All the trials are not only 'non-patterned', but they also have to deal with terrain and different environments that make things much harder. In other words, the arena never looks anything alike from trial to trial. It's not a 'football field in Minnesota' vs. 'a football field in California'. The distances are also much greater and the dog is away from you working 95% of the time with you having to start and stop him etc etc. 

My point to all of this is not to diminish any dog sport, as they are all are difficult and anyone that doesn't believe that needs to get in there and try them. My point is that is that virtually every single one of the retriever hunt test and field trial people have collars on their dogs, and none of them can use it on trial day. So obviously there is 50 trillion examples of dogs working without their collars on in a trial, but yet practicing with them every day. So to say a dog can't perform without it, is the same argument that there will never be a black president. Usually those are just 'emotional' arguments that obviously have no basis in fact. It's 'emotional'.......period.


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## Linda Flemmer

Carol Boche said:


> ....the GSD mauls the cats, so they wear the collar.....


OK - I have rotts that LOVE cats - until the cat's "run down". THIS I have GOT to learn! :grin:

Where do you find e collars for the cats? What are you teaching the cats to protect them from the GSD?

Got a video? \\/

Linda
:-\"


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## Fred Hassen

Linda Flemmer said:


> OK - I have rotts that LOVE cats - until the cat's "run down". THIS I have GOT to learn! :grin:
> 
> Where do you find e collars for the cats? What are you teaching the cats to protect them from the GSD?
> 
> Got a video? \\/
> 
> Linda
> :-\"


Actually, we did train a cat at a Phoenix seminar that I did about 6 years ago with a collar on. There were about 45 people in attendance, but unfortunately........we didn't video any of the seminar that day.


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## Chris Michalek

Fred Hassen said:


> Actually, we did train a cat at a Phoenix seminar that I did about 6 years ago with a collar on. There were about 45 people in attendance, but unfortunately........we didn't video any of the seminar that day.



Cool, that you do seminars. 

I'm doing one in Phoenix too. May I have permission to use your video as an example of how not to train a dog?

Thanks


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## Carol Boche

Linda Flemmer said:


> OK - I have rotts that LOVE cats - until the cat's "run down". THIS I have GOT to learn! :grin:
> 
> Where do you find e collars for the cats? What are you teaching the cats to protect them from the GSD?
> 
> Got a video? \\/
> 
> Linda
> :-\"


AHAHAHA...I can see where that looks like my cats wear the collars. Ooops.....but I am sure most know what I meant. LOL :mrgreen:
I really need more coffee. ](*,)

Here is a pic of how my huge cat spends his day when we train at the house.....


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## Don Turnipseed

Fred, a lot of dgs don't do well trialing, but, other than that, the ones that do well have most of the intincts bred into them. Labs pups are naturals in the water, EP's point and so on. Many of the trialing events have pushed the envelope so far in regards to breeding that winning may be just how the dog holds his tail. What kind of trialing do you do exactly. Also, I am curious about the complexity involved in Dock Diving. I have never been around it but I don't see where there could be much to it outside extreme enthusiasm entering the water.


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## Adam Rawlings

Chris Michalek said:


> Cool, that you do seminars.
> 
> I'm doing one in Phoenix too. May I have permission to use your video as an example of how not to train a dog?
> 
> Thanks


Your giving a seminar.:roll:


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## Chris Michalek

Adam Rawlings said:


> Your giving a seminar.:roll:


yes, Douche Bag means Douche Bag how to sell shit to people who don't know better. $395 per person seats are filling up and at this moment there are only five spot left.


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## Adam Rawlings

Chris Michalek said:


> yes, Douche Bag means Douche Bag how to sell shit to people who don't know better. $395 per person seats are filling up and at this moment there are only five spot left.


Ok, mark me down for two spots.


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## Dave Cartier

Dave Cartier said:


> :-\"
> 
> Hey Fred,
> 
> Any thought on the above question? I actually would like to hear your response. I have always kept an open mind about any training method to see if it can benefit or compliment my "tool bag". From Richard Wolters and Mike Lardy, to Bernhard Flinks, and Mike Ellis there is something to be learned from all good trainers.
> 
> You have answered most all others question with yet another video.
> 
> I have to go train with a first time customer. I hope to read your answer soon.
> 
> Thank you for your time.


:-\":-\":-\"

Hey Fred,

Just as I expected. Fred can not explain his system. You will just have to believe him?:roll:

* The more you respond to his "helpful" threads the more exposure he and his business gets. Bad press is good press when you are in marketing. 

Does not matter. Effective, and Cheap marketing strategy. *

Oh well. I thought he really could explain his system. I'll explain it...."It just works. You will just have to come to a seminar to see it!!!"

I am done. Thanks for the education. I have learned a lot today:idea:......NEXT please!


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## Lee H Sternberg

Fred, you've posted a lot of videos. Can I see one of your dogs DOCK DIVING?\\/


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## Carol Boche

I just wanted to show my cat.....he is way cool!!! Knows how to hunt and bring me his prizes......AAACK..which I don't mind except for the snakes that are only half dead......


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## Chris Michalek

No Dave,

you have to come to my Douche Bag Means Douche Bag Seminar and I will show you everything you need to know on how to make money selling bullshit.






Dave Cartier said:


> :-\":-\":-\"
> 
> Hey Fred,
> 
> Just as I expected. Fred can not explain his system. You will just have to believe him?:roll:
> 
> * The more you respond to his "helpful" threads the more exposure he and his business gets. Bad press is good press when you are in marketing.
> 
> Does not matter. Effective, and Cheap marketing strategy. *
> 
> Oh well. I thought he really could explain his system. I'll explain it...."It just works. You will just have to come to a seminar to see it!!!"
> 
> I am done. Thanks for the education. I have learned a lot today:idea:......NEXT please!


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## Lee H Sternberg

Carol Boche said:


> I just wanted to show my cat.....he is way cool!!! Knows how to hunt and bring me his prizes......AAACK..which I don't mind except for the snakes that are only half dead......


Bring him here. He can hunt snakes all day, some big one too. It is better a night, though. I almost stepped on one coming home from the watering hole last night.:-D


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## Dave Cartier

Dave Cartier said:


> :-\"
> 
> Hey Fred,
> 
> Any thought on the above question? I actually would like to hear your response. I have always kept an open mind about any training method to see if it can benefit or compliment my "tool bag". From Richard Wolters and Mike Lardy, to Bernhard Flinks, and Mike Ellis there is something to be learned from all good trainers.
> 
> You have answered most all others question with yet another video.
> 
> I have to go train with a first time customer. I hope to read your answer soon.
> 
> Thank you for your time.





Dave Cartier said:


> They are not thinly veiled. This is marketing.
> 
> Fred. Can you explain to trainers of the forum HOW you accomplish this attention heeling without signing up for lessons from you or your marketing partners?
> 
> I thought that this is how this forum works. Trainers helping other trainers. Not just posting video with the "Logo" plastered everywhere with no explanation of how.
> 
> What form of controlled scientific data can you provide on your method. Skinner had volumes of data to prove the hypothesis. Not an explanation of "it just works"
> 
> Care to define your method using operant conditioning parameters?
> 
> How is an aversive like electrical stimulation be perceived as positive? Not going to argue. Just would like to know because I like to learn.
> 
> btw: I do use, and teach e-collar use to my customers using escape avoidance method.


:-\":-\":-\"


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## Lee H Sternberg

Fred, I don't need formal dog parks. All of Costa Rica is one big dog park. I just need to walk out the front door. 

It gets real interesting when my bitch is in heat.[-o<


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## Angie Stark

Fred Hassen said:


> Hi Angie, that is fantastic!! It would be great to see more of your dogs in this 'video section' so I could learn more about you. I am certainly learning more about the people posting when I see their dogs in this section. I'm sure you have much to offer.


I am a pet owner, not a trainer. I have 1 dog and I come to this site to learn. Im not here to sell myself to you or anyone else....just learn how to work with my dog better. My point was that you are supposed to be a trainer...you should be able to get that same response without an ecollar. I don't have a video of us demonstrating this focus but my does work for me like that...without an ecollar. Your response of showing a video of the same dog without the ecollar, in a completely isolated (looks like home) area didn't do anything to prove your point. I didn't say you couldn't do it/dog wasn't trained...basically wanting to know why u needed the ecollar to accomplish it on a finished dog. You could have responded by saying this was not a trained dog and this was his first or second outing and this was your method or obtaining the focus, but you choose a different path.

Im not a trainer basher, just pointing out the obvious since you apparently wanted feedback, thats why you posted the video. Your sarcastic tone in your response and lack of response/adequate response to some of the questions is what is causing the harsh posts. The tone of the thread was steered by you.


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## Lynda Myers

Chris McDonald said:


> Why does this guy always have a remote control in his hands everyplace he goes? I don’t see no tv around?


Chris I was thinking near the same thing, my first thought was aw hell his cheatin with the e-collar which kinda ruined it for me. Was wondering how focused and compliant the dog would be without it? Oh well to each his own.


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## Fred Hassen

Angie Stark said:


> I am a pet owner, not a trainer. I have 1 dog and I come to this site to learn. Im not here to sell myself to you or anyone else....just learn how to work with my dog better. My point was that you are supposed to be a trainer...you should be able to get that same response without an ecollar. I don't have a video of us demonstrating this focus but my does work for me like that...without an ecollar. Your response of showing a video of the same dog without the ecollar, in a completely isolated (looks like home) area didn't do anything to prove your point. I didn't say you couldn't do it/dog wasn't trained...basically wanting to know why u needed the ecollar to accomplish it on a finished dog. You could have responded by saying this was not a trained dog and this was his first or second outing and this was your method or obtaining the focus, but you choose a different path.
> 
> Im not a trainer basher, just pointing out the obvious since you apparently wanted feedback, thats why you posted the video. Your sarcastic tone in your response and lack of response/adequate response to some of the questions is what is causing the harsh posts. The tone of the thread was steered by you.


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## Jim Nash

I asked this on another thread but I think you missed that one . It fits well in this one so I'll ask it again .

Fred , I think the ecollar is a great tool . I'm wondering what your opinion is on a dog that when operating without the ecollar , but with a foundation of training with the ecollar , exhibits behaviors(twitching , shaking ,etc.) that look like it's still getting a stim when given a command say to sit , down or stand ?


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## Anne Vaini

Jim Nash said:


> I asked this on another thread but I think you missed that one . It fits well in this one so I'll ask it again .
> 
> Fred , I think the ecollar is a great tool . I'm wondering what your opinion is on a dog that when operating without the ecollar , but with a foundation of training with the ecollar , exhibits behaviors(twitching , shaking ,etc.) that look like it's still getting a stim when given a command say to sit , down or stand ?


Jim - I have to train a young dog with something similar to Fred's stye of training. She is for a handler that cannot hold a leash and cannot give a rewards. She can press buttons, so we're using the ecollar for everything. The dog will be on it for life. 

Everytime she hears the warning tone, she twitches like she's getting a high level stim. #-oI use the owest level stim possible. If she is starting to pull ahead in heeling, the warning tone will cause her to hop out of line entirely. This is an improvement from when she was first learning and the cue was causing the reaction you describe.

I taught her a "no" marker as a puppy, and was hoping that higher-order conditioning would cause her to response to the no marker reliably. No such thing. And the association between the tone and the stim is too strong that it becomes a problem for training.

This puppy is months and months behind where she should be in training. She is at the level of a 8 - 9 week old puppy in my program. She is 9 months old. She should have her retrieving skills complete and be finishing up opening doors. We are on come-to-heel. ](*,)She was a brilliant puppy with my method and was way ahead schedule, up until the time where I found out how disabled the handler is and had to change to ecollar training.

Did I mention I hate this style of training? ](*,)

Anyway - back on topic, I am hoping that over time, she will understand that the tone is only followed by a stim if she fails to correct her behavior. It's counter-conditioning her current response by setting up many repetitions of a situation in which she responds appropriately to the warning tone and does not recieve the stim. I haven't had opportunity to do this since her reaction to the warning tone is causing misbehavior. ](*,)


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## Ben Colbert

Anne,

What's the downside to taking the dog and doing all the foundation yourself in the more usual since (treats, luring, marking etc) and then handing the dog back to the owner for proofing? 

Thanks!


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## Anne Vaini

Ben Colbert said:


> Anne,
> 
> What's the downside to taking the dog and doing all the foundation yourself in the more usual since (treats, luring, marking etc) and then handing the dog back to the owner for proofing?
> 
> Thanks!


Tearing my hair out over people who can't follow directions! Most people screw up the training completely in the first 2 weeks. They want to experiment with the dog's full capabilities and cuddle and kiss excessively, while I need them to focus on re-housetraining and setting up a working relationship.

I do all of the training here - including proofing - place the dog and then start over from the beginning, teaching the handler how the training is done. So even if the dog can go out in public and retrieve and open doors and whatnot, when I place the dog, we focus on housetraining, crate training and focus. That's IT.

I've found better results in training both dog and handler through private lessons. However, the dog I'm training now is for a handler who is physically unable to train.


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## Fred Hassen

Jim Nash said:


> I asked this on another thread but I think you missed that one . It fits well in this one so I'll ask it again .
> 
> Fred , I think the ecollar is a great tool . I'm wondering what your opinion is on a dog that when operating without the ecollar , but with a foundation of training with the ecollar , exhibits behaviors(twitching , shaking ,etc.) that look like it's still getting a stim when given a command say to sit , down or stand ?


Hi Jim! Sorry about that. Depends on a lot of factors. I've seen a lot of different things and there are various ways to deal with it, but it's hard to say without seeing the situation. I see dogs that will 'duck' and exhibit similar behaviors as handlers approach because of something they are relating to the handler doing to them, and I'm sure you see that with dogs that have never even had a collar on. 

My point is that 'ducking' isn't just 'collar related' so it's hard to say exactly what the problem is without seeing the person's knowledge, and 
to make my recommendations. Yes, I have seen it though in ecollar training and all other sorts as well. Not debating that.


----------



## Jim Nash

Fred , what is your primary reason for joining this forum ? Is it to paticipate in discussions or advertise your business ?


----------



## Fred Hassen

Jim Nash said:


> Fred , what is your primary reason for joining this forum ? Is it to paticipate in discussions or advertise your business ?


It's to help others learn the same way I learned. I learned the most from watching. You can keep writing all you want, but I have problems processing things unless I watch. I was never the best at comprehending written information. 

I can also tell by watching who exactly I am dealing with. I will know a lot more about you by watching a video of your dog. I don't have almost 3 million views on all of my videos because no one watches them.
I get emails every day on what they learned from them. They aren't instructional if you have an agenda. I like watching Bart Bellon's videos also, and the folk from Belgium that I have spoke of and none of them are instructional in the sense of 'you do this, and then you do that'......but I pick up wayyyy more than reading all the bashing. I'll take the video.

Yes, I do understand that there are people that learn more from written text, and that's great........they are going to be fans of good writers. Nothing wrong with that, and I wouldn't appeal as much. 

It's easier for me if I just block what I consider nonsense, because I'm just trying to break it down to the people I enjoy and enjoy watching.
I don't really care too much about the personal stuff, and I really just enjoy watching the dogs so I like the video section. I also like it, because the people that talk a lot of crap for no reason.......it can make the consumer more aware.

If I'm looking for a web designer, I want to see. If I'm looking for a dog and the guy tells me 'he's very strong, very this, very that'........I want a video. I ain't the only one, cause I know I didn't invent the phrase 'Let me see your dog'.

That's the great thing about this board, if you want to read written text and articles, there is a section for that........if you want to see videos, you can hang out in that section. The people who like our work usually do because they have seen it, not because we talked about it. Obviously, some don't like it. Some like everything and some don't. 

In all my years on this planet, I have never met someone that kept watching something that sucked over and over and over again, nor have I ever seen anyone that kept reading an authors posts over and over that they don't like.

I can name you trainers that I don't like their work (but I won't), but you ain't gonna find me spending all day watching their videos either, or complaining about them. I love that they are around cause I'm all about comparison. 

So I'm sorting the field down, and I can see where I wasted some of my time responding to people that just had an agenda. That just takes up space and wasted energy cause it will never get anywhere.

Besides......if you think the product sucks, what the hell would you care how it's done? Do some of you make a habit of finding products that you think are bad, then really get in depth on how they created such a bad product? I get it, some of you don't like collars and you think my dogs all suck. Great, then what is the problem........we are both convinced already. 

I think I'm going to put this in my signature line......
Video Gallery Share your videos here! Lets try and turn this into a big archive of peoples working dog videos! The video's don't even have to be yours, if you find a cool video online and want to share it, post a link to it here!


----------



## Candy Eggert

Jim Nash said:


> Fred , what is your primary reason for joining this forum ? Is it to paticipate in discussions or advertise your business ?


Now Jim..you silly goose :lol: :lol::grin: Was it "without seeing the person's knowledge" "and make my recommendations" (loose translation consult cha-ching) that gave it away?! roflmao

Expect the forum to implode from not enough storage space on it's harddrive with all these videos!


----------



## David Feliciano

This asshole joined the forum three days ago and has already posted ten threads. Every thread he has created has been in the video section and they are all about promoting his business. At what point does this become considered spam?


----------



## Chris Michalek

Fred,

you're the one that seems to have an agenda. I was actually very neutral to you when I started reading your thread but then I saw you get condescending and that's not right especially for a bloke that doesn't have his training skills in order. I took the time and watched the video you posted with the Mal off leash in your backyard or where ever. I even pointed out what you were doing wrong but you seemed to ignore it as if you know better.

I've not seen you give one bit of advice to others. 

Videos don't mean shit when it's a bad example. I've watched a few of your videos today and all of them have issues. That's fine, we all have training issues, I know I do but you are the one that tries to come off as some sort of expert dog trainer when it's sloppy at best.

So if you are here to learn and contribute, then you need to acknowledge that you're not giving the best training to people's dogs. And you're training K9s? You have to realize you have bought about all the negativity with your agenda and attitude.


----------



## Jim Nash

Well Fred you sure were able to type a bit explaining your thoughts there . 

I just wonder why it's so difficult to explain what your experiances are with the first question I asked . I know discussing it on the internet forces us to generalize but if you simply qualify your response something like this , "It has been my experiance training K9's that show behavior like you described as usually stemming from ...................... " it should make things a bit clearer .

I agree hands on experiance and actually seeing things first hand too are the best . But as it pertains to the first question I asked , how hard is it to type out your experiances and generalize what you think the problem is the majority of the time when you have experianced those behaviors ? 

I was hoping I would learn something from your experiances . Guess I expected to much .


----------



## Chris McDonald

David Feliciano said:


> This asshole joined the forum three days ago and has already posted ten threads. Every thread he has created has been in the video section and they are all about promoting his business. At what point does this become considered spam?


The first video was officially spam now he’s a virus. Now it’s an advertising campaign gone bad, this guy must post this shit everywhere. Can you imagine how many dogs are getting blasted by people who hit pet smart after watching a video? I wonder what he did before this, insurance salesman, used car salesman, he would be perfect to sell those knifes at the both at the mall. Slices and dices


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen

WHo was that guy that used to run off these people ?? WHere did he go ??


----------



## Candy Eggert

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> WHo was that guy that used to run off these people ?? WHere did he go ??


Yeah, we know he's IN there somewhere and we WANT him back :razz:


----------



## Jim Nash

Evidently from reading Fred's response to me attending one of his seminars consists of simply going there and watching him . Expecting him to also explain how and why he is doing something , using words is beyond him . 

Obviously he could type out a response if he wanted to . He could simply type out what his verbal response to me would be at one of his seminars . 

IMO , he is either too busy making money or afraid a response would sometimes expose possible weaknesses in his training which would be bad for business . We will never know which if he doesn't respond . Win win for Fred . 

Just be honest Fred . You're here to advertise your business nothing more .


----------



## Carol Boche

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> WHo was that guy that used to run off these people ?? WHere did he go ??


R.I.P. :sad:


----------



## Chris Michalek

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> WHo was that guy that used to run off these people ?? WHere did he go ??



Seems like somebody cut off his balls. 

Please come back. [-o<[-o<[-o<

I thought Marines never gave up?


----------



## Carol Boche

He could email it to me, and I will copy and paste it.....might be worth Connie banning me for a few days........

(or not)


----------



## James Lechernich

I've joined in the festivities lately myself, and I posted that video I have an issue with in hopes of starting a dialogue, but honestly, I don't fault the guy for doing his thing and trying to earn a living. The you show me yours, I'll show you mine stuff is fine, as is the visual vs. verbal/written learning curve. Hell, I don't even mind the condescension and personal fueds. 

However, this video of the day shit is bogus! Nothing wrong with people sharing their interests, work, victories, or footage of Buko punking Jeff yet againp), but random shit with little or no context or prompting from the board(ie: relevant to current discussions) comes across as nothing but an unsolicited advertisment. 

Just reign it in a little and you won't need to ignore as many people as before. Post highlights of demos at events like the HIT thing in Vegas people have been talking about lately. That's relevant and it's gentler way to have a dialogue and/or strum up business.




My $.02


----------



## Jim Nash

I totally agree with you James .


----------



## Chris McDonald

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> WHo was that guy that used to run off these people ?? WHere did he go ??


A few squeaky wheals cry and cry till someone just can’t take it anymore so the higher ups make a new rule to shut up the squeak rather than just dealing with the squeak. It always backfires such as here. Some opportunists carefully pick their target and rather than starting their own board for there business they try to push their twisted ways on the weak squeakers. They try and brain wash them like saying its not shock its stim or everyone has a right to free healthcare and then…… everyone’s taxes go up. This happens to people who think there can be such a thing as world piece. People who think this just get taken over. 
Although this board is “free” to be a member of if we chose to stay we are all now forced to pay a tax because of a few squeakers. The house of cards is crumbling 

What was I talking about?


----------



## Connie Sutherland

Jim Nash said:


> I totally agree with you James .



So do I.


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen

I just have seen way too many videos of the SMS stuff. Plus, there are some good people out there making a living with his business model.

All I see is some gun dog stuff that means nothing to sport work at all. So the dog gets up on a platform. Ok. Whoopie doo.

I have seen what the gun dog people can do with an e collar, and good training, and this is just a bad version of it. 

Besides, you guys have figured this shit out. This stuff is for pet people for money. This guy makes money. If he was selling 60,000 dollar dogs, I would not have a problem with him. However, when you hear about dogs getting the snot shocked out of them, and then the dog is blamed, you just let people figure this out on their own.


----------



## leslie cassian

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> WHo was that guy that used to run off these people ?? WHere did he go ??



I want him back. 

Hand him back his testicles, let him get on with the job at hand. We miss him.


----------



## Connie Sutherland

leslie cassian said:


> I want him back.
> 
> Hand him back his testicles, let him get on with the job at hand.






Jeff Oehlsen said:


> ... I have seen what the gun dog people can do with an e collar, and good training, and this is just a bad version of it.
> 
> Besides, you guys have figured this shit out. This stuff is for pet people for money. This guy makes money. If he was selling 60,000 dollar dogs, I would not have a problem with him. However, when you hear about dogs getting the snot shocked out of them, and then the dog is blamed, you just let people figure this out on their own.



Like that? Succinct, straightforward, not even any *** bombs or personal 
attacks! :lol:


----------



## leslie cassian

Getting there, but not quite the Jeff we all know and love. He can do better. I know he can.


----------



## Chris McDonald

Connie Sutherland said:


> Like that? Succinct, straightforward, not even any *** bombs or personal
> attacks! :lol:


He can’t Connie the boards government has given him strict warnings. It wouldn’t be right to ask for help now. 
Once you get rid of your nuclear weapons you just cant ask for them back when you need them 
They made their bed let them lay in it #-o


----------



## Connie Sutherland

Chris McDonald said:


> He can’t Connie the boards government has given him strict warnings. It wouldn’t be right to ask for help now. They made their bed let them lay in it #-o


I think many of us appreciate a clearly expressed opinion that doesn't distract from the message with side issues of personal attacks, a million *s, or anything else.


----------



## Guest

Connie Sutherland said:


> I think many of us appreciate a clearly expressed opinion that doesn't distract from the message with side issues of personal attacks, a million *s, or anything else.


Is there a limit on how many posts you can do a day or how many videos?


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen

**** him **** that and his training is ****ity **** **** all. What a tool, I have no idea why anyone looking at this ****ing video would see anything but ****ing bullshit. 

I cannot believe that anyone even bothers to post to the ****ing piece of shit videos. THEN you cannot even point out the glaringly obvious bad training. I think he uses the remote so you cannot see how ****ing pathetic his timing is.

He scams pet people out of their money, and the best he can do is ****ing dock diving, and dogs sitting on stuff. Baden anyone ??

There, not my best effort, but I am watching a particularly bad movie, and it is way more interesting than his lame videos. Ban the piece of shit and call it a day.


----------



## leslie cassian

Thank you. 

All that was missing was calling him a ****tard. I'm sure the opportunity for that will come up soon enough.


----------



## Al Curbow

Is he the only person that uses this board for commercial reasons? Nope..........lol


----------



## leslie cassian

Just the most blatant and frequent one, right now.


----------



## Thomas Barriano

[QUOTE
He scams pet people out of their money, and the best he can do is ****ing dock diving, and dogs sitting on stuff. Baden anyone ??
/QUOTE]


Jeff,

I know you're on a rant roll here, but FYI. Fred had the record for both Obedience and Protection with his Pit Bull Maddie in the old NAPD (PSA style protection work). IF you don't like the videos, don't watch them. No need for anyone to be talking about banning anyone that just trains differently then you do


----------



## Chris McDonald

Thomas Barriano said:


> [QUOTE
> He scams pet people out of their money, and the best he can do is ****ing dock diving, and dogs sitting on stuff. Baden anyone ??
> /QUOTE]
> 
> 
> Jeff,
> 
> I know you're on a rant roll here, but FYI. Fred had the record for both Obedience and Protection with his Pit Bull Maddie in the old NAPD (PSA style protection work). IF you don't like the videos, don't watch them. No need for anyone to be talking about banning anyone that just trains differently then you do


How come you don’t say the same about your buddy Butch?


----------



## Carol Boche

Thomas Barriano said:


> Jeff,
> 
> I know you're on a rant roll here, but FYI. Fred had the record for both Obedience and Protection with his Pit Bull Maddie in the old NAPD (PSA style protection work). IF you don't like the videos, don't watch them. No need for anyone to be talking about banning anyone that just trains differently then you do


People have been giving this guy shit ALL day and NOW you say "don't watch the videos"???????????

All we want is for him to contribute to learning and information here, answer the questions asked of him without telling us to attend a seminar, and so far, it has been skirted around with LOTS of plugs for his "business". Whether he had the record or not, it is not what this board is about.


----------



## Jim Nash

Thomas , Lee was just a trailer trash version of Fred's slick polished video advertisements . You wanted that guy banned right away . 

At least Lee attempted from time to time to participate in training and dog related discussions , even if it just proved how clueless he was . I didn't see you just ignoring him . 

Fred has done nothing to participate in discussions but refer others to one of his local trainers in his area . If the guy would just offer something of substance besides the videos full of his company's name .

I could care less what he has accomplished if he doesn't want to share in some detail how he did it . 

If he wants to participate in training discussions that would be great if he only wants to spam us with his commercials then I wish he would just take a hike .


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen

Jesus, Thomas, as much as you chase after people, you should be the last to complain.

I really could care less, but this guy is just advertising his bullshit, and is not even a contributing member. If he was in there with the rest of us talking training, that would be different. He just posts videos of his work, which wether or not he trained a pit bull to hold a record, sure doesn't look like he got better.

I have no problem with people promoting their stuff, as who here is gonna jump to train with him ? The problem is he is just spamming this board with badly done gun dog crap.

Just a fuktard out to make a buck.


----------



## brad robert

this is all true would like to see more talk of his methods or him answering peoples questions properly.fred says watching people work dogs helps to understand and i do agree with that but so does telling them how it is done and not avoiding the answer all posts so far have video and no text of how he got there.
This forum has helped me more then words yet freds posts have helped me nil so far and to be honest im sure they wont add some content fred you obviously have years of training behind you be a true member of this community and dont forget not all of us can train with remotes even if we want as it is banned.


----------



## Dave Cartier

Dave Cartier said:


> They are not thinly veiled. This is marketing.
> 
> Fred. Can you explain to trainers of the forum HOW you accomplish this attention heeling without signing up for lessons from you or your marketing partners?
> 
> I thought that this is how this forum works. Trainers helping other trainers. Not just posting video with the "Logo" plastered everywhere with no explanation of how.
> 
> What form of controlled scientific data can you provide on your method. Skinner had volumes of data to prove the hypothesis. Not an explanation of "it just works"
> 
> Care to define your method using operant conditioning parameters?
> 
> How is an aversive like electrical stimulation be perceived as positive? Not going to argue. Just would like to know because I like to learn.
> 
> btw: I do use, and teach e-collar use to my customers using escape avoidance method.


Fred, Come out, Come out, where ever you are.....

You have been posting ALL day and have dodged my question....All day. 

I am still waiting for my answer to the above question.:-\":-\":-\"Maybe you just do not know how your system works? Must be cause you can not explain it.

I have been patient, non antagonistic, and would like an answer, not another video. I do not comprehend video well. I comprehend the written language. 

Or is it really true? You are a marketing whore? Remember the N.I.L.F. (nothing in life is free) care to contribute or just SPAM this list like you did on the "other" forums?

Fake. That is all I can say. Snake oil, and smoke. (now I am being antagonistic) 

Go away or I shall taunt you for a second time.


----------



## Ben Colbert

He probably has you blocked. I think he has me blocked. He has the luxury of blocking anyone who disagrees with him and still spamming the boards with his advertisements.


----------



## David Feliciano




----------



## Bob Scott

Does nobody see the skill in training a Lab to jump in the water and retrieve a dummy? 
It's an art you know!
OUCH! OUCH! 
My mom always smacked me in the back of the head when I got sarcastic.
I really felt those just now and she's been dead for years. :-o:-#


----------



## Jim Nash

Dave Cartier said:


> Fred, Come out, Come out, where ever you are.....
> 
> You have been posting ALL day and have dodged my question....All day.
> 
> I am still waiting for my answer to the above question.:-\":-\":-\"Maybe you just do not know how your system works? Must be cause you can not explain it.
> 
> I have been patient, non antagonistic, and would like an answer, not another video. I do not comprehend video well. I comprehend the written language.
> 
> Or is it really true? You are a marketing whore? Remember the N.I.L.F. (nothing in life is free) care to contribute or just SPAM this list like you did on the "other" forums?
> 
> Fake. That is all I can say. Snake oil, and smoke. (now I am being antagonistic)
> 
> Go away or I shall taunt you for a second time.




That was some funny sh** Dave . I needed that laugh . 

I fart in your general direction . Your mother was a hamster and your father smelt of elderberries .


----------



## Tanya Whelan-Velasco

Anne Vaini said:


> Hi Tanya - I'll tell you how I trained my dog. I started clicker training at 6 weeks old. It is so simple. Keep her on a long leash, click when she looks at you and reward with her favorite thing. She'll start to choose to look at you.
> 
> At first, I want to teach the dog that looking at me is a good choice. (Whatever is rewarded will be repeated.) Later, I teach the dog that looking away is a bad choice. At the end, I teach the dog that looking away is not an option.


 
I will defineltly try this she is focused for the most part but agian she is only 16 weeks lol i never thought of tryin in the dog park.. i have a trainer and right now shes focused on protection first but i have crate trained her completly and off leash trained sit stay come down out shake lol all while managing my 2 toddlers.. I know there are people who devote there intire day to there dogs training and prob think thats nothing campared to what there dogs learned by this age but hey i'm proud of it..lol


----------



## James Lechernich

Fred had a FRAT post somewhere around here, didn't he? Blink two times and it's gone. Dang!


----------



## David Feliciano

James Lechernich said:


> Fred had a FRAT post somewhere around here, didn't he? Blink two times and it's gone. Dang!


Every post Fred makes is a FRAT post. **** reading any of his bullshit


----------



## Anne Vaini

Tanya Whelan-Velasco said:


> I will defineltly try this she is focused for the most part but agian she is only 16 weeks lol i never thought of tryin in the dog park.. i have a trainer and right now shes focused on protection first but i have crate trained her completly and off leash trained sit stay come down out shake lol all while managing my 2 toddlers.. I know there are people who devote there intire day to there dogs training and prob think thats nothing campared to what there dogs learned by this age but hey i'm proud of it..lol


I think you're right on for starting to think about training in different places. But you definitely don't want your pup to get harassed or have a bad experience at the dog park, so work on the OUTSIDE of the fence!


----------



## Dave Cartier

*Pure hijacked thread*

Now for something completely different.................................

I picked up my new Mal pup tonight at the airport.

"Hawken"

I can't wait to get him started. Tomorrow morning he tackles the A-frame!

Footnote: There is more than one way to train a dog!


----------



## Tanya Whelan-Velasco

Anne Vaini said:


> I think you're right on for starting to think about training in different places. But you definitely don't want your pup to get harassed or have a bad experience at the dog park, so work on the OUTSIDE of the fence!


 
Yeah that's what i've been doing and at busy play grounds so she stays focused on the tug while there are distractions.. Thank you so much i am here to learn and its nice for you to point me in the right direction.. Thank you again


----------



## Thomas Barriano

Chris McDonald said:


> How come you don’t say the same about your buddy Butch?


Chris,

Are you really trying to compare K9 ProSports with NAPD?

bwahahahahahahahahah


----------



## Thomas Barriano

Jim Nash said:


> Thomas , Lee was just a trailer trash version of Fred's slick polished video advertisements . You wanted that guy banned right away .
> 
> At least Lee attempted from time to time to participate in training and dog related discussions , even if it just proved how clueless he was . I didn't see you just ignoring him .
> 
> Fred has done nothing to participate in discussions but refer others to one of his local trainers in his area . If the guy would just offer something of substance besides the videos full of his company's name .
> 
> I could care less what he has accomplished if he doesn't want to share in some detail how he did it .
> 
> If he wants to participate in training discussions that would be great if he only wants to spam us with his commercials then I wish he would just take a hike .


Jim,

LEEtle Man was all talk and NO walk. I don't see Fred editing videos and attacking other members. Fred's a little heavy on the videos BUT don't tell me you can't learn something from them without a detailed step by step explanation? It would be nice if we could have training discussions without the personal attacks.


----------



## Chris McDonald

Thomas Barriano said:


> Chris,
> 
> Are you really trying to compare K9 ProSports with NAPD?
> 
> bwahahahahahahahahah


:-\"

No I am just saying that here you are being the police and the judge again telling everyone who is good and who is bad, sometimes you even go super hero. I have still yet to see you produce any internet police credentials. I think most of this guys problems are due to his cheesy attempt at advertising. 
He could have been interesting to have around, and if he changes is attitude I am sure everyone would still welcome him. After two years of me reading this board and contributing nothing but bad jokes I have come to relies that anyone who claims “there way” is “the way” gets shoot dead on the board or anyplace else. 
Maybe if he came on and said that his company’s research shown that the general public wants fast results and this method was the way they were able to offer what was wanted. Maybe if he said that he understands there are other ways but his company is into production Id have more respect for him. Maybe it is because people don’t understand the long term other benefits of taking a bit more time or more likely they just don’t care. That is SMS way of training it looks easy to recruit and teach other trainers how to get most things accomplished in weeks not years. In my experience the ultimate goal of a company such as this one is to recruit and train others. SMS and there methods probably did help many typical pet family’s dogs from being a total a-hole I would think that’s all that most wanted. 
SMS is very similar to what is known around here as “strip center karate”. Everyone learns the same exact robot stuff with the same so-so results and sticking to a strict form even if it does not work for them. With a 22 year old robot instructor with 5 years experience. It’s not as good as going to a real place with a real instructor, but its easer. And it’s a big improvement over doing nothing and if you keep paying they will give you a black belt in like a year, and these people really think the color of their belt is an accomplishment not the learning of a skill. Kind of the way people look at dog titles and papers. 
From the little I am starting to understand of dog training I can see how the business model of SMS could be successful. Once you get to be experienced in any industry you see it going on in that industry.
And the other thing is I live in NJ, overweight guys in black silk sweat suits in little Hummers and a tough dog are a dime a dozen. I got $10 bucks he has a least one gold chain on and several wife beater t-shirts in the closet. His other car is an I-Rock. Don’t even want to talk about the hairy back!. 
Aint you ever seen that goofy show Jersey Shore?


----------



## Jack Roberts

Fred is a salesman and he has joined the wrong board. If he told people how he trained dogs then he could not sell his snake oil. How hard is it to stim your dog and when he begins to comply to the command to release the button? 

Once the dog learns the exercises, then just stim him quick for non compliance to a command. If I had to guess from the dog's behavior in this video, Fred is using too strong of momentary/nick stimulation on the dog by just looking at the dog.

Dog training is not a rocket science. My only hope is that some newbie does not see his videos and pay him their money. 

For anyone curious about training with an e-collar, you can go look at Jim Dobbs website and get free articles on training with an e-collar. Jim Dobbs is light years above Fred in training. I do not train my dog like this but if you are interested in training with an ecollar then looking at the website below which can help you understand how the method works.

http://www.dobbsdogs.com/library/obedience/index.html

http://www.dobbsdogs.com/library/index.html

This is the same method that SMS uses but the only difference is you want be milked of your money and you will understand why you are doing something in training.


----------



## Angie Stark

I was told of a teenage girl that had been invited by a friend to attend one of his seminars. He had a malinois there and it wore the ecollar tthru the entire seminar. Apprently there was some sort of bite work in the seminar becase the girl told him she didn't think the dog would out without the collar. He told her of course the dog would be obedient without the collar on. She stayed back after people left and continued the argument with him and she put on a sleeve and asked him to remove the ecollar and send him and out him. Of course the dog wouldn't out, even after Fred was trying to choke him off. After some time he ended up telling her to slip the sleeve and then he was able to get the dog off of it.

Smoke n mirrors just gives everybody a bad taste and it really sucks when people who don't know any better try to do the right thing and get their dog trained and get screwed.


----------



## Howard Knauf

Bob Scott said:


> Does nobody see the skill in training a Lab to jump in the water and retrieve a dummy?
> It's an art you know!
> :-o:-#



Right?

I have an idea...lets get a bird dog etc. that's insane with prey drive and see how far it'll jump into the water while chasing a fake duck. Hey Fred...you don't need an ecollar to do that!.

Also, scent trials??? Really?? Thats about as hard to train as the above dock divers. I wouldn't be too quick to hang my hat on such great accomplishments that require so little training. THATS why it is so popular compared to sport work...less time and knowledge involved.

I bet you were big into remote control gadgets like airplanes and boats as a kid, huh? Do you have the same disconnected emotions towards your dogs like you did the wood and plastic toys as you steer them around like a mini mad scientists?

Go get an infomercial and leave us alone.


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## Jim Nash

Thomas Barriano said:


> Jim,
> 
> LEEtle Man was all talk and NO walk. I don't see Fred editing videos and attacking other members. Fred's a little heavy on the videos BUT don't tell me you can't learn something from them without a detailed step by step explanation? It would be nice if we could have training discussions without the personal attacks.



A little heavey on the videos ! Thomas , you confuse the sh** out of me . You jump on certain people the minute they post here . Complain about them posting too much and screaming for some rules to control them . This guy comes in and dumps a whole bunch of videos on us with no discussion about how he does what he does . He provides no useful infomation what so ever and avoids questions like the plague . But you pop up and defend him . WTF !

This guy doesn't participate outside of flooding us with commercials . The videos are useless unless we can talk about them and how he got there . Get your buddy to participate I have no problem .

THOMAS HE'S ADVERTISING NOTHING MORE !


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## Adam Rawlings

Not to hard to figure out. Thomas probably invited Fred to the forum so he could slam Lou and his comments about LVPD. 

Thomas is a drama queen and we should all chip in and buy him a matching crown and purse to go with his dress. What a bitch.:lol:


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## Joby Becker

Angie Stark said:


> I was told of a teenage girl that had been invited by a friend to attend one of his seminars. He had a malinois there and it wore the ecollar tthru the entire seminar. Apprently there was some sort of bite work in the seminar becase the girl told him she didn't think the dog would out without the collar. He told her of course the dog would be obedient without the collar on. She stayed back after people left and continued the argument with him and she put on a sleeve and asked him to remove the ecollar and send him and out him. Of course the dog wouldn't out, even after Fred was trying to choke him off. After some time he ended up telling her to slip the sleeve and then he was able to get the dog off of it.
> 
> Smoke n mirrors just gives everybody a bad taste and it really sucks when people who don't know any better try to do the right thing and get their dog trained and get screwed.


I could be wrong but I think that was my friend Teresa from the chicagoland area , she told me that she did this a few years ago.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

HOLY SHIT ! Howard comes in with the best slam I have seen so far. Unexpected, ruthless, AWESOME !!!!

Thomas, look down, your agenda is showing.


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## Thomas Barriano

Adam Rawlings said:


> Not to hard to figure out. Thomas probably invited Fred to the forum so he could slam Lou and his comments about LVPD.
> 
> Thomas is a drama queen and we should all chip in and buy him a matching crown and purse to go with his dress. What a bitch.:lol:



Wrong Junior, go buy a slice of ham and tell yourself it's Canadian bacon and leave the discussion to the grown ups. LMAO


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## Adam Rawlings

Thomas,

It's a bit of a stretch calling your self a "grown up".


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## Chris McDonald

Thomas being called a drama quean is really a bit masculine for you. If I was you I would take that title and put in your signature line. “Hypocrite” doesn’t even do you justice


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## Thomas Barriano

Chris McDonald said:


> Thomas being called a drama quean is really a bit masculine for you. If I was you I would take that title and put in your signature line. “Hypocrite” doesn’t even do you justice


But You're not me Chris. So go fuk yerself and learn how to spell
Queen. LOSER. An androgynous name like "Chris" suits you.


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## Ben Colbert

Have we really devolved to the point where we're making fun of each others names? What are we in 3rd grade?


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## Chris McDonald

Thomas Barriano said:


> But You're not me Chris. So go fuk yerself and learn how to spell
> Queen. LOSER. An androgynous name like "Chris" suits you.


Drag queen answer….. Spelling is for losers. Once I Google the big word I might be back


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## Timothy Stacy

Chris McDonald said:


> Drag queen answer….. Spelling is for losers. Once I Google the big word I might be back


LOL

I think there is no doubt you can train a dog with a e collar but I think this blew up on Fred due to his presentation. Thomas he might be a great guy out of training, I don't know. But when we were force feed everything it got old fast. The E collar is undoubtedly suitable for some dogs but for me personally I wouldn't start a dog like that, just me and probably many others here. Fred can train a dog however he wants and yeah it works for him. But to come on and show snid bits of stuff without sharing any info, basically just showing vid after vid to get business is aggravating. Especially the video for the day stuff like where in preschool and he's the teacher. I said it earlier he has a lot of info and he'd peak more interest by trying to help out. 
Somebody just had a thread on getting quick change of positions. I understand he got thrown under the bus but why not answer like yeah have you ever had a e-collar on your dog? I start with stimulation and the dog learns to turn off the stimulation quicker by complying faster so on, and throw in a, but be careful because xyz. People could have said there piece about how they wouldn't do that until the dog absolutely knew the commands blah blah. How about giving people here tools to put in there tool box?


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## Jerry Lyda

No, Never.


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## Fred Hassen

Adam Rawlings said:


> Not to hard to figure out. Thomas probably invited Fred to the forum so he could slam Lou and his comments about LVPD.
> 
> Thomas is a drama queen and we should all chip in and buy him a matching crown and purse to go with his dress. What a bitch.:lol:


Hey buddy........I never friggin said or insinuated a bad word about LVPD and when Thomas asked how I thought things like that get started, well I guess here is the answer. Next time it's brought up, we can google it to keep the record straight for you, Lou, or whoever. If you can find anything that I EVER said otherwise, feel free to post it.


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## Christopher Jones

Chris Michalek said:


> *To my eyes, Fred hasn't accomplished anything as long as a compulsive device is available*. Lets see how the dog does with out the e-collar. I bet the same dog can't do it. My video shows that it can be done. Let's see it Fred.


I was talking to some Belgium Ring trainers who said the same exact thing about Bart Bellon. "When E-collars get banned in Belgium, we will see just how good a trainer Bart is".


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## Fred Hassen

Christopher Jones said:


> I was talking to some Belgium Ring trainers who said the same exact thing about Bart Bellon. "When E-collars get banned in Belgium, we will see just how good a trainer Bart is".


Really? Kind of like steroids huh? Well then commonsense just tells me that you should have a bunch of examples of some so-so dog trainer that gets into ecollars, and then just catapults to the head of everyone. Should be lots of them out there. Care to name a few?


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## Anne Pridemore

THe dogs focus is to the mans pocket. Clearly a high value reward waits there, and teamed up with e-collar correction, you have a very drivey dog obsessing in a dog park.

I think this is more impressive.
http://www.youtube.com/user/PRDMRE#p/u/27/7PBdyvfjfTU

rescued at 2 years old and trained on a simple prong collar


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## Adam Rawlings

Fred Hassen said:


> Hey buddy........I never friggin said or insinuated a bad word about LVPD and when Thomas asked how I thought things like that get started, well I guess here is the answer. Next time it's brought up, we can google it to keep the record straight for you, Lou, or whoever. If you can find anything that I EVER said otherwise, feel free to post it.


It has nothing to do with you, it was one of many arguments that Lou and Thomas have had. I can't remember which one, it's all a funny blur now.


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