# Orry von Haus Antverpa?



## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

opinions/thoughts? he has Tiekerhook (Steffi no less  ), produced Tom vL, among others. i'm looking at a breeding 5-5 on Orry, w/Pike thrown in as well (but not linebred), and some other good/great dogs.

mating test:

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/para.utkoma?fadir=524027&modir=485959

i believe in linebreeding, just wondering about this one. from what i've been able to learn about the genetics, this could/should be some potentially very nice dogs, esp for my wants/needs.

and, in the interest of learning more about GSD (working) lines, just curious about Orry in general. 

thanks in advance!


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

5 5 might as well be 0 0. This is just the same as an open pedigree. Too far back to matter.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

In my opinion nothing about this pedigree really excites me. I agree with Jeff that 5-5 on any dog is too far back to matter. I had a dog who was 3-3 on Orry and he was a nervebag with good handler aggression and that is about it. I had another dog who was an Orry grandson on the top side and he was a super dog.
If you like the parents here and they are truely breeding quality animals then go for it, the pedigree does not have to excite me for the dogs to come out nice, but based on pedigree alone I would not be intersted in this one. However if I saw the parents and could not live without a puppy from this combination then I would buy one.


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

Mike said it well. A 5-5 is 6.25% genetic material from Orry, and not all of it from _his phenotype_, either. Only a faithfully true selection for his characteristics through his direct path to the pup could impart any greater chance of influence than that. And that would be most evident in the pup's parents, of all places.


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

thanks guys--i thought 5-5 was pretty far back to have much, if any, influence. we'll see when i go check out the pups.

mike "good handler aggression",lol. well i guess he was good at SOMEthing, right? the ped didn't really excite me either, on paper.

daryl--got it! both parents are there, should be able to see them work (i know, the home place isn't the best, but you work with what you ), and most importantly, i know the breeders as absolutely upstanding, honest ppl that at least work/title their dogs and know what they have. and in GSD that's priceless.


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## hillel schwartzman (Nov 9, 2008)

well orry was a nervebag .i know someone who bred fero lines to olko orrys brother. produced a super nerve bag. but boy that mf could bite hard and would come down the field like a wombat. (had to kill you before you killed him)..i dont know what you are looking for, if i were looking for a shepherd i would look for fero yoschy troll and breed to marc hercumblick lines if you can find them. always liked what that has produced JMO. But if it aint dutch it aint much JMO


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## Mario Fernandez (Jun 21, 2008)

Agree with Jeff. There are 62 dogs in a 5 gen ped. Orry influence is minimal. 

Seen a couple of dogs off Orry. A friend had Q vom Haus Shiho for a while, he bought the dog from Japan. As what Mike described some handler agression. My friend sold him to some people in Belgium I think the Q litter von haus Shiho was the last litter Orry sired. They may still have Orry on ice.


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## Julie Blanding (Mar 12, 2008)

My dog is linebred on Orry 3-4. I don't see nervebag anywhere.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

*Re: Look at the dog, not the pedigree*



Julie Blanding said:


> My dog is linebred on Orry 3-4. I don't see nervebag anywhere.


Hi Julie,

I'm always amazed when someone says "Fido" produces nervebags or "Fido" produces hard dogs. all based on one or two examples  A pedigree shows the potential. The actual
dog and the person that trains him decide what the dog actually does.


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

*Re: Look at the dog, not the pedigree*

and i'm a firm believer in the females's influence both genetically and behaviorally on the pups.

and just out of curiosity, and to take my own thread somewhat OT, what would you expect fr this dog based on the linebreeding? 

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/568890.html

fifteen dogs linebred here, most 5-5 or 4-4.

how does this affect the genetics if the 5-5/4-4 is too far back? i get how it has virtually no influence on the ped i posted previously, but it seems like "something" would be a LOT more loaded up in this one.


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

Basically, the linebreeding is on Macho and Anja, both 3-3. No other common lines except through these two. A 3-3 can be viewed as having the wieghted influence of a dog in the 2nd generation of the pedigree, contributing 25% of the genotype, or having a COI of 12.5% estimated probable common phenotype, of either Macho or Anja. That estimation still doesn't take into account selection pressures from the breeder, who may or may not be breeding type to type similarities, either knowingly or recessively.


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

i knew i could count on you to do the math daryl!! i "could" do it, but that would involve books, finding a calculator, the correct formulas, the math (have i ever mentioned i hate math? lol), etc.

so what i'm taking away here is that essentially, unless the linbreeding is 3-3 or less, the influence is negligible. is that right?

does it make a dif if the linebreeding is, say, 5,5-5,5 on a dog? ie, on both sire/dam sides? seems like that would double the genetic input fr 6.25% to 12.50%....


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## Mario Fernandez (Jun 21, 2008)

Daryl which program are you using. Man's best friend?


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: My dog is linebred on Orry 3-4. I don't see nervebag anywhere.

How is this confusing to people ?? There are certain "tendancys" that occur with a stud. Doesn't mean you shouldn't use him, or that it will pass. If the females he was bred to were solid nerve, then there is the possibility that you will not see this. You almost have to breed your dog to see what I am talking about. We have a lot of people that have never bred a dog, and what you are seeing is a dog that was bred by someone who knew the lines way better than the guy that bred the dogs with handler aggression and nerves....althought any dog that runs down the field to kill the guy, I may reserve judgement on the nervebag thing.


Ann. when I see 5-5 in a pedigree multiple times, I just see the past. The dogs where bred well and then it got scatter****ed. Gotta remember that they are a lot closer to each other there. One of the reasons they still kick the shit out of us. THat and they are not scared to breed.


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## Adi Ibrahimbegovic (Nov 21, 2008)

Nothing much of value to add here. But I have recently talked to a breeder that looked at that dog and passed. His exact words were: The dog is a monster on the schutzhund field, but completely unable to live and non functional off the field. Didn't go farther than that, the conversation drifted elsewhere after that statement.

Completely second hand information and 100% unverified, no horse in this race, just thought I'd add it here.


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## Julie Blanding (Mar 12, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: My dog is linebred on Orry 3-4. I don't see nervebag anywhere.
> 
> How is this confusing to people ??...


I was not nor am I confused. But thanks for your input...


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

There was supposed to be another quote in there. It was not about your precious, so you can relax gollum. It is not the end of the world if someone doesn't like, or has heard bad things about a dog in your dogs pedigree.

One day I will find the research that is supposed to prove that anything beyond the parents doesn't count. That will be fun, as I have had a couple really strong producers recreate themselves a couple of generations later. However it will be fun to post it.


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## Julie Blanding (Mar 12, 2008)

Yep. It certainly isn't the end of the world.


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

Mario Fernandez said:


> Daryl which program are you using. Man's best friend?


No program, no deep mystery to it. Two appearances in the third generation, is the equivalent of one appearance in the second generation. 25% genetic contribution, half of which (12.5%) is the _coefficient of inbreeding_, or COI, which is the "likelihood of homogenous genotype" from the said producer.

A 5,5,5,5-5,5,5,5 linebreeding contributes the _actual equivalent_ that a _single dog_ would from the 2nd generation, but from it's genotype, not necessarily it's phenotype. Same dog contributes a _probable equivalent_ of half that figure from it's phenotype. _Probable influence_, however, is based on random selection, without consideration that a breeder's criteria is influencing the _actual outcome_. Therefore, what the breeder _isn't selecting for_, becomes increasingly heterozygous, with the exception of _genetically linked_ traits incidently connected with his selection criteria.










Because most characteristics are complex in nature (polygenic & environmentally influenced), the _actual outcome is also increasingly complex._ This is, for example, how you would end up with dysplastic dogs, although both parents might be rated "excellent". This is also why looking at "just the parents" can't reveal the whole story, or more accurately weigh the probabilities.

The parents phenotypes are only half the equasion that goes into a pup, though when they are linebred, their increased frequency of homozygous genotypes help to better provide a wysiwyg context. Hence the need to examine the family, not just the producers. But even yet, the variable affects of additive traits, and how they work together in their various combinations, makes for a complexity that can result in pups being far greater or far worse than either of their parents.










Where I find the greatest intrigue, is in defining the "genodynamic" properties of character traits. The character components and how they work together, how they are hereditarily transfered, and to what extent they are influenced by their environment and early development.

Defining these funamental elements of behavior that are more faithfully transfered by the simple rules of heredity, become more appearant when you familiarize yourself more intimately with a given particular bloodline or two. In other words, with experience and consistent design. Thereafter, once you intermingle the bloodlines, the complex interaction of these "elements" can make for surprising results.


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

Daryl, were you at a PSA trial several years ago in Utah? Are you the MD, I think a OBGYN?


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

Maybe you're thinking of Daryl Richey.


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

Daryl Ehret said:


> Maybe you're thinking of Daryl Richey.


Daryl Richey was there but I am confident he is neither a MD nor GYN. O

No offense meant to him.


There were three people there from Loveland, one MD guy, one other guy and girl. Can't remenber the names but they were GSD people.


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

I can only think of John, (last name escapes me at the moment). He's a doctor in PSA that lives on the north side of Loveland, but may be a Ft. Collins address. John owns and has worked with many van den Heuvel dogs.


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

Daryl Ehret said:


> I can only think of John, (last name escapes me at the moment). He's a doctor in PSA that lives on the north side of Loveland, but may be a Ft. Collins address. John owns and has worked with many van den Heuvel dogs.


 
Very well could be, The girl's name may have been Stacy. I enjoyed talking with them all.


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## Daryl Ehret (Apr 4, 2006)

I really admired Stacy's dog. You can see a couple of pics of John Crane catching Stacy's dog, Sascha, on this link: Xero z Pohranicni Straze


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