# False Alerts (or are they?)



## Holly Huryn (Mar 12, 2008)

I'm sorry in advance if I'm not using the correct terms for everything, but I don't know them yet! When I take my dog into a clean room and do a search, he always finds the dope and alerts. If I take him out of the room and bring him back in (hiding the dope in a new spot) he always first goes back to the previous hiding place and alerts. I'm thinking that there is obviously a scent still in that spot. What I've done is ignored him until he moves on. Can you "re-use" the same room/area twice in a row for searches? Am I making some big huge massive mistake here?!


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Holly Huryn said:


> I'm sorry in advance if I'm not using the correct terms for everything, but I don't know them yet! When I take my dog into a clean room and do a search, he always finds the dope and alerts. If I take him out of the room and bring him back in (hiding the dope in a new spot) he always first goes back to the previous hiding place and alerts. I'm thinking that there is obviously a scent still in that spot. What I've done is ignored him until he moves on. Can you "re-use" the same room/area twice in a row for searches? Am I making some big huge massive mistake here?!


The dog is hitting on residual ordor . You shouldn't reuse rooms like that .


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

I agree with Jim. I'd also like to add if it's soon after, the dog may not even be sniffing, just going to the last place the target was hidden. Plus, you shouldn't be hiding your own targets anyway.

DFrost


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## Scott Williams (Aug 24, 2009)

Additionally, make sure odor is contained to cut down on residual odor by direct contact.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Pack it in coffee, everyone knows the dog can't find it when it's packed in coffee. 

DFrost


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

What a waste of good coffee 

I have seen the same thing with HR on moving it around (residual)

I imagine you also have the problem of visual memory and it amazes me how much the herding dogs have (not as sure about the labs)

I have to be very careful about reworking an area as the dog will run straight to where I hid the source and then use his nose to hone in on it. Our recent snow (I had set out an area with bone hides this summer) made everything look different and he had to actively work the problem as though it was a new one.


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## Pete Stevens (Dec 16, 2010)

I agree with some of the guys above. It sounds like residual odor to me. Best way I ave found to explain it is what has been called the "Burned Popcorn Theory". If you burn some popcorn in the microwave and throw it away, the microwave still smells like burned popcorn. And probably will for some time too. Just because the popcorn is gone doesn't mean the odor is too. That is why our dogs are not trained to find drugs, they are trained to find the odor of them. 

I know its hard to find places to train but the dog most likely isn't false alerting, its smelling what was there previously. Try not to use the same room too quickly. You can wipe down the spot you used or turn on a fan to get the odor moving to help speed things up.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

David Frost said:


> Pack it in coffee, everyone knows the dog can't find it when it's packed in coffee.
> 
> DFrost




Pack it loose! Nothing like waking up to the smell of fresh brew in the morning!:-o :-#8-[ :lol:


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## John-Ashley Hill (Jan 5, 2011)

I dont know the size, layout, or airflow patterns in the room or if you are bringing the dog back in immediately or waiting an extended period but here are two thoughts. If you are bringing the dog right back in just space out your trainig aids then after the first find praise/reward and work the rest of the room to the next aid, instead of working the room all over again. Past that maybe try your first aid placement in something that can be removed ( suitcase, purse, box, etc) then remove that object which should hold the bulk of any residual and allow your dog to work the room again with the first hide spot now absent.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

At some point, you'll want to document a residual odor "find". 

DFrost


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## Holly Huryn (Mar 12, 2008)

Thanks for all the help everyone - I have a lot to learn about how a dog uses his nose!

@David - how come I shouldn't be hiding my own targets? I train on my own so it's kind of difficult to have someone else hide them.  I was kind of wondering if my dog was targeting on my smell sometimes? (I do wear gloves to handle the target odor - most of them time)


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Holly Huryn said:


> Thanks for all the help everyone - I have a lot to learn about how a dog uses his nose!
> 
> @David - how come I shouldn't be hiding my own targets? I train on my own so it's kind of difficult to have someone else hide them.  I was kind of wondering if my dog was targeting on my smell sometimes? (I do wear gloves to handle the target odor - most of them time)


 
among other things, if you know where it is, you will have a tendancy to cue the dog to the right spot and then dog is not recognizing odor, you want the dog to hit the odor, but for all the right reasons! Has it been imprinted on the odor already?


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Jody Butler said:


> among other things, if you know where it is, you will have a tendancy to cue the dog to the right spot and then dog is not recognizing odor, you want the dog to hit the odor, but for all the right reasons! Has it been imprinted on the odor already?


Jody hit on the biggest reason . I've seen it alot and the cues aren't all that subtle either but the handler has no idea . I usually saw it as obvious as stopping or slowing down drastically near the source . You can see that the dog then knows he's supposed to look real hard in that area . 

Another reason you shouldn't know where the hides are is to learn how to better read your dog . It gives you a better idea when he's working in and out of scent . Another reason is it gives you a good idea of how good you and the dog are doing in searching , ie: Is he really checking areas you are directing him to search? .

Jody is right that for some they may not even be recognizing ordor . For other dogs they may know ordor but are just conditioned to know when to start searching for the ordor . Dogs are great at taking shortcuts . Why waste all that time searching when my handler is going to tell me when we are getting close ?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Jim Nash said:


> *Joby* hit on the biggest reason . I've seen it alot and the cues aren't all that subtle either but the handler has no idea . I usually saw it as obvious as stopping or slowing down drastically near the source . You can see that the dog then knows he's supposed to look real hard in that area .
> 
> Another reason you shouldn't know where the hides are is to learn how to better read your dog . It gives you a better idea when he's working in and out of scent . Another reason is it gives you a good idea if of how good you and the dog are doing in searching , ie: Is he really checking areas you are directing him to search? .


JoDy...


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Joby Becker said:


> JoDy...


I looked at it twice too . I know how sensitive you guys are about that . 

My brother's name is Tim and we get called by each others name all the time . I just gave up .


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Jim Nash said:


> I looked at it twice too . I know how sensitive you guys are about that .
> 
> My brother's name is Tim and we get called by each others name all the time . I just gave up .


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

JoDy . Just face it you're hosed . Joby posts on every discussion and we see his name over and over again . Just say this over and over again . Joby ........Joby.........Joby..........Joby...........Joby...........Joby........Joby....... . It will get easier to except . That or just start drinking .


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Jim Nash said:


> JoDy . Just face it you're hosed . Joby posts on every discussion and we see his name over and over again . Just say this over and over again . Joby ........Joby.........Joby..........Joby...........Joby...........Joby........Joby....... . It will get easier to except . That or just start drinking .


it is easy to decipher...if it makes sense it is most likely Jody.


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

I don't know if this matters to some that much, but it is one of my peeves when someone is detailing anything is that they point to where they want the dog to check. 

I choose to sweep my open hand past an area to let the dog know that I want her to detail. I do not point to anything, ever. 

She details all seams, cracks, holes or whatever on her own. Most of the time I do not even have to use my hand (unless she is wound up and I need her to "think and focus")........

Pointing results (in my experience with people) as a cue that there is source and I see the dogs tending to false alert since they are relying on the handler to "tell them" where source is, rather than using their nose to find it. 

I am constantly using new places.....Jesea, mainly when she was really young would tend to go to where she found something.....even if it was months later.......she has the mind of a mule (or elephant)....she never forgets.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

What Jim and Jo (B) or (D) y said. (I'm confused, ha ha). If you are hiding your own targets you are not truly measuring your ability to read the dog, or the dog's ability to find it without your help. I see it frequently. A handler trains while hiding his own targets. The handler, knowing where it is, does not have the opportunity to observe the dog sniffing something, not necessarily a drug odor, but something that interests him. If the handler knows it's not one of the targets, they just tell the dog to move on. If the dog stops to sniff something, or intensifies their sniffing behavior on something that isn't a drug odor they (handlers) become unsure themselves. Confusing description perhaps, but I see it all the time when handlers train with me, and they do not know where the targets are. I'm known to put dog biscuits, my wallet, badge case, plastic bags or other things in the search area. A dog, stopping to sniff something with intensity, isn't wrong until he responds. If you know where the targets are, you don't get to see that behavior. Bad, bad habit. 

DFrost


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Carol Boche said:


> I don't know if this matters to some that much, but it is one of my peeves when someone is detailing anything is that they point to where they want the dog to check.
> 
> I choose to sweep my open hand past an area to let the dog know that I want her to detail. I do not point to anything, ever.
> 
> ...


I don't see pointing as being the problem . The sweep of the hand could cause the same behavior . If a dog false alerts when the handler points at something you have to look at why that dog is associating pointing with the it giving a false alert . 

Is it just a dog "testing" meaning it's getting impatiant for the reward and will give an "alert" minus the ordor of what it's supposed to be searching for in order to see if it can get rewarded ? or Is it a K9 that is associating the handler's behavior (cue) that it needs to give an "alert" . 

IMO the most important thing to avoid this or any type of false alert behavior is #1 good foundation in odor recognition , #2 a solid and reliable foundation in the alert to that odor , and #3 Proper handling of that K9 involving a hadler that doesn't change his/her behavior near or away from a source . 

For me if I see the problem you describe Carol it's usually the handler's fault but there is the occassional wingnut dog whose initial early association with learning how to search out , smell and alert to ordor is so strong that it associated the first time or first few times the handler ever pointed to the source as the reason it will sit and get rewarded . I'm talking usually the very first time it was ever directed (handsweep , pointing , verbal "check , etc. ) to a source ordor alerted and was given the reward , it simply didn't take much at all to cue this dog the situation that lead (pointing or a handsweep could be one of them) to the reward was so strong it stuck in it's head and it's very difficult to change . In cases like that switching to something else to direct a K9 is the best bet . 

I've had it in my last hunting dog too . One of his first finds of a pheasant I planted in a clump of tall weeds was so strong that for the rest of his career any clump of weeds that even remotely resembled that situation he looked , stopped using his nose charged in full speed hoping to flush a bird . It never changed no matter how many times he did NOT have success , he still associated that as HAVING to be holding a bird . He was a great , very driven bird dog but what made him great in my opinion was what brought on that odd behavior also.

The biggest reason I usually see a dog truely false alerting is a handler slowing down or stopping . When it happens with a false alert is because something has slowed down or stopped a handler like a desk , car , some kind of obstruction . The reason for the dog's false alert usually is because in training the handler has done too many hides where they have known where the hide is . They inadvertantely slow down or stop around the hide so the dog can get the odor . It also happens in the initial training of the dogs while playing the shell game using boxes . I dn't know how many times as a trainer I have said " Keep f***ing moving ! " while detector dog training . 

I do think you will see less false alerts with a hand sweep over pointing only because it's easier to keep moving , where with pointing you have to slow down a little more . 

But again , either way you direct a dog shouldn't be an issue (IMO) as long as the handler isn't doing anything wrong in the first place to cue the dog .

I personally don't care how a handler directs it's K9 as long as the dog follows that direction and alerts or doesn't alert properly and that they don't touch the areas they are directing the dog to .


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

"#3 Proper handling of that K9 involving a hadler that doesn't change his/her behavior near or away from a source ."

Which can only truly be done when the handler does not know the location of the target. Then and only then, hand movement, slowing down, speeding up, stopping are all part of the handler's search behavior. If it's a normal part of the search behavior, the dog can not cue on any one thing, except for the odor.

DFrost

DFrost


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

David Frost said:


> "#3 Proper handling of that K9 involving a hadler that doesn't change his/her behavior near or away from a source ."
> 
> Which can only truly be done when the handler does not know the location of the target. Then and only then, hand movement, slowing down, speeding up, stopping are all part of the handler's search behavior. If it's a normal part of the search behavior, the dog can not cue on any one thing, except for the odor.
> 
> ...



I agree . But I have trained by myself . When doing so I pay close attention to my behavior but with that said the majority of my training is with someone else on unknown hides . I have the luxury of working with very knowledgable guys so they help keep not only my dog but my handling correct also . 

I will caution though that even when working with someone else on unknown hides that the one assisting that knows where the hide is , makes sure they don't cue the handler . 

I've seen some do this by them changing their behavior once the K9 team gets close to the hide . They will move in closer paying alot more attention to the K9 behavior then they had earlier and they move into a position where they can deliver the reward to the source . The handler and even the dog at times can pick up on this . 

When I assist a team I try to stay in the same position and act the same no matter what . If we are training and I'm delivering the reward I stay in an area where I can do that . Regardless if we are close to or far away from the hide or even if we are doing a room with no hide in it . Everything stays the same with my behavior as an assistant .


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## Holly Huryn (Mar 12, 2008)

Wow, this is a lot of good info - I am very thankful. I have anohter question  - if someone else does the hide, is it always that person who has to reward the dog so that the handler never rewards on a false alert?


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

One problem I see with detector dogs falsing is improper handling of it when it does happen in training. I LIKE to see a dog false, early on, so they realize they don't get a reward for the behavior. They are opportunistic predators. Stimulus=Response=Reward. They want the reward so they throw the response. If they don't realize there is no value in that, it can become a real problem. 

Another biggie is that anything but odor cues the dog to respond. My feet not moving does not create bomb or narc odor. This is an improperly trained dog when you have this happen. Prepping dogs for other handlers, I do every thing I can think of to make a dog false once they are trained. Slow down, stop, crowd, present and hold, stare at the dog, present high repeatedly in front of the dog, searching an area multiple times. If this becomes common place to a dog, then it doesn't cue the dog to anything. It's called proofing. Moving fast to keep a dog from responding is like saying stay fifty times to get a dog to stay. It is an un-needed cue for a properly trained dog.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Jim Nash said:


> I will caution though that even when working with someone else on unknown hides that the one assisting that knows where the hide is , makes sure they don't cue the handler .
> 
> I've seen some do this by them changing their behavior once the K9 team gets close to the hide . They will move in closer paying alot more attention to the K9 behavior then they had earlier and they move into a position where they can deliver the reward to the source . The handler and even the dog at times can pick up on this .
> 
> When I assist a team I try to stay in the same position and act the same no matter what . If we are training and I'm delivering the reward I stay in an area where I can do that . Regardless if we are close to or far away from the hide or even if we are doing a room with no hide in it . Everything stays the same with my behavior as an assistant .



I agree with this Jim. Ooohs and Ahhhs and stopped talking, etc. It is easy for a dog or a handler to read when they are working unknown hides. I like quiet cert authorities. Make you feel like you are really working, giving no input other than a no, when you think a false is good, or nothing when you are correct.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

I do think still think there is a place for working known problems.....

Refining an alert - eg speed, duration

Teaching a new odor

Handler learning something new like detailing a car - well - guess you could argue that one but it helped me to have multiple very small known hides on the car to teach the dog to slow down.

Working out certain problems, I know I have stood there staring at a negative, and even detailing a negative, so the dog learns that these behaviors don't mean to alert. Another very subtle human behavior the dogs will pick up on is holding your breath.

I put out my bones in known locations to work on getting my dog to slow down and work more methodically as bone scent does not appear to be as volatile as decomp and the dog needs to learn to work with his head scanning more for ground scent.

I totally agree that having the bulk of training with unknowns and someone more experienced who knows EXACTLY where the source is absolutely necessary for working search patterns and knowing how to read the dog......setting your own problems is like working a marked trail........

As a relatively new handler for only a few years but Cadaver dog SAR folks are not immresed daily as are LE K9 handlers, I accept that, so........I find there is still an awful lot to learn by watching other people work their dogs too.


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Nancy Jocoy said:


> What a waste of good coffee
> 
> I have seen the same thing with HR on moving it around (residual)
> 
> ...


What Nancy said


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Nancy Jocoy said:


> What a waste of good coffee
> 
> I have seen the same thing with HR on moving it around (residual)
> 
> ...


The visual memory, or search generalization is very important in detection dogs. The trick in my opinoin is to get a good search generalization and not a generalized response. Once a dog starts searching deep in corners, bottoms of pallets, door seams, because of previous hides, and hide placement, the handler can stay most of the way out of the picture. Helps the dog go high and low, and search productive areas on his own. 

The best example I can think of is if you have a dog that won't hunt a car, he pulls his toy off a few times and in a few different systematically placed areas and is reasonably proficient at hunting the car for his toy. Why, because he generalizes where he found his toy.

Most of this stuff comes up after the response is taught, as some dogs learn they are getting paid for sitting, not for sticking with the odor.


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## Jennifer Michelson (Sep 20, 2006)

Shouldnt the dog be searching for the strongest scent source rather than being satisfied with 'fringe'? If a problem is reset and there is a hide in the room along with the spot with residual, I would expect the dog to check out the residual but continue searching for the strongest scent. I have had problems where there is residual scent from another problem, and the dog noted it but continued to see if there was something 'better' and work that out. If there was no stronger scent in the room, I would expect the dog to take the residual and indicate..... Is this the same working drugs as HR?


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Jennifer Michelson said:


> Shouldnt the dog be searching for the strongest scent source rather than being satisfied with 'fringe'? If a problem is reset and there is a hide in the room along with the spot with residual, I would expect the dog to check out the residual but continue searching for the strongest scent. I have had problems where there is residual scent from another problem, and the dog noted it but continued to see if there was something 'better' and work that out. If there was no stronger scent in the room, I would expect the dog to take the residual and indicate..... Is this the same working drugs as HR?


Your use of fringe is confusing . I don't see it as being a fringe odor problem . It's odor . If the dog smells odor he works and pinpoints the source of THAT odor . If it's residual it's to the source of that residual . If you have another hide in that area it's to the source of that odor . I don't want my dog skipping something to find something better . In that situation , he works whatever source he comes across first to the source , then move on . Simply put I don't want my dog skipping odor he is trained to find .


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## Jennifer Michelson (Sep 20, 2006)

So it would not be a false alert to alert on residual scent at all, it would be taken as 'we believe drugs were there'.?

I am probably mixing my metaphors. I am using fringe because I am assuming that if there were drugs also hidden in the room that scent would be much stronger than a spot where they have been removed, especially if they were the same drugs used before. My assumption then would be that the dog would work to pinpoint the stronger source.

I set up a problem once where I put the HR in what I thought was a good spot, thought, nope that wont work and moved it (it was in place for maybe 2-3 seconds), sent the dog and he did hit on the spot where I had briefly put the source (prompting me to quickly thing 'stupid handler"), before he caught the stronger scent, he did work around this spot trying to pinpoint. As he made a wider circle, he caught stronger scent and worked it to the hide.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

How would that logic apply to disarticulated remains where there may be bonefield with overlapping scent pools? We just tell the dog to "work more" and say "good dog" but no reward if it is obvious they are double dipping.

--

Or we had a search where we were looking for the "rest of the body" but they had just removed the main part of the body (limbs were missing) and the scent was so strong that we could smell it, but we had to acknowledge it but continue to work in the vicinity.


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Jennifer Michelson said:


> So it would not be a false alert to alert on residual scent at all, it would be taken as 'we believe drugs were there'.?
> 
> You are correct it is not a false alert if the dog alerted to residual odor . I am probably mixing my metaphors. I am using fringe because I am assuming that if there were drugs also hidden in the room that scent would be much stronger than a spot where they have been removed, especially if they were the same drugs used before. My assumption then would be that the dog would work to pinpoint the stronger source.
> 
> I set up a problem once where I put the HR in what I thought was a good spot, thought, nope that wont work and moved it (it was in place for maybe 2-3 seconds), sent the dog and he did hit on the spot where I had briefly put the source (prompting me to quickly thing 'stupid handler"), before he caught the stronger scent, he did work around this spot trying to pinpoint. As he made a wider circle, he caught stronger scent and worked it to the hide.


Chances are better the dog will hit on the strongest scent . But odor should be odor to the dog . If it's trained to find and alert to specific odors it should do that . The dog is alerting on the odor .


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Jennifer Michelson said:


> So it would not be a false alert to alert on residual scent at all, it would be taken as 'we believe drugs were there'.?
> 
> I am probably mixing my metaphors. I am using fringe because I am assuming that if there were drugs also hidden in the room that scent would be much stronger than a spot where they have been removed, especially if they were the same drugs used before. My assumption then would be that the dog would work to pinpoint the stronger source.
> 
> I set up a problem once where I put the HR in what I thought was a good spot, thought, nope that wont work and moved it (it was in place for maybe 2-3 seconds), sent the dog and he did hit on the spot where I had briefly put the source (prompting me to quickly thing 'stupid handler"), before he caught the stronger scent, he did work around this spot trying to pinpoint. As he made a wider circle, he caught stronger scent and worked it to the hide.


It would not be a false alert if the dog alerted to the residual odor of what it is trained to locate . The dog alerted to the odor it was trained to find . Say it was marijuana odor , it's trained to locate and alert to marijuana odor , it comes across a place with marijuana odor in it even though the package of marijuana has been removed . It should still alert on that location because the odor of marijuana is still there .


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Jennifer Michelson said:


> Shouldnt the dog be searching for the strongest scent source rather than being satisfied with 'fringe'? ?


Yes, but if the residual odor is all there is, it's the strongest scent. Responding on fringe odor is usually a training problem. 

DFrost


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Nancy Jocoy said:


> --
> 
> Or we had a search where we were looking for the "rest of the body" but they had just removed the main part of the body (limbs were missing) and the scent was so strong that we could smell it, but we had to acknowledge it but continue to work in the vicinity.


The problem can also be the point of saturation. A dog finds source by looking for the next strongest odor. When it determines the strongest point, that is when it give the response. When there is no stronger odor, there is no weaker or stronger odors the dog has reached the point of saturation. You'll hear detector dog handlers, particularly those that find a very large amount for the first time, tell their stories. They knew the dog was in odor, but wouldn't respond. 

DFrost


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## Pete Stevens (Dec 16, 2010)

I call the large sources that some dogs don't respond to as "scent overwhelming". They know the odor but its too much for them to pin point. A gram of weed smells a lot different that 1000 lbs of it. Its about training thresholds and teaching a dog to get to the source or stong point of odor. I'm lucky, I get to train on large loads often. But I've seen a dog put his nose right on a ton of weed and keep going. But when he ges a few feet away, you see the change in behavior and know they are on to the scent. It's your job as the trainer to expose the dog to all different amounts but lots of agencies don't have that option so I bet its even less in the civilain world. I had a trainer of mine explain it to me as if you go into a room where some woman has on nasty perfume. It covers the entire room. You have no idea who is wearing but its so overwhelming that you can only say it's in that room. I brought my dog to a house that had an indoor grow as well as a large amount of dry product. I was just overwhelmed when I walked in, how do you think it smelled to the dog? No way she was going to be functional in the type of scenario.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

True - I do get that - saw that on a shallow drowning ready to float (actually he surfaced about 30 minutes later) where the scent was everywhere and the dog was just spinning circles on the boat and could not pinpoint but he was going wild........typically it is much more subtle on a deeper "fresher" drowning..........(learned a lesson that day to work more with the wind at our back under those conditions)

I guess what I was trying to say is that sometimes though, we have multiple sources in a location and once the dog "finds" the strongest scent we still have to find lesser scents ----for example, scattered bone...............multiple hides.......


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## Holly Huryn (Mar 12, 2008)

So do you reward the "false alert" if you know there is residual odor there? And then have the dog keep checking for more?


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Holly Huryn said:


> So do you reward the "false alert" if you know there is residual odor there? And then have the dog keep checking for more?


That is NOT a false alert , regardless if the package is removed the odor is still there and the dog still alerted to an ordor it is trained to alert on .

If I came across that in a training situation and I knew the dog was in the odor of the old hide I would praise the dog for the alert then move the dog out of that area and towards the newer odor you wanted to find in the first place . If I thought by his behavior (no deep inhaling for example) that the dog wasn't in ordor but working on memory I would just try and redirect him away from the distraction of the old hide and work towards the current hide . 

It's not much different a problem then in a real world find where there are multiple stashes in a house . It's just competing odors . A USPCA detector certification has that problem in the car searches . Multiple cars often parked next to each other 4-5 cars with a hide on 2 of the cars . 

Often when you find the first you still have to deal with gettting the dog to continue searching for the second . Sometimes while working you may get too close to the hide you already found or the wind will change blowing that odor into the dog again . You don't want to correct the dog for trying to relocate that ordor and if they are pulling hard towards it it's simply best sometimes to let them alert again praise and redirect away . Otherwise if you are pulling them off odor you're sending a mixed message to the dog whose doing what he should (working out the ordor of something it's trained to find ) be doing . 

Once again the dog is trained to find specific odors . It is doing just what it's supposed to do . The odor is the same be it from a substance that is hidden in a location or had been hidden in that location . It's still the odor you had trained the dog to search and alert on .


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## Jennifer Michelson (Sep 20, 2006)

Jim, In the training scenario, would your praise of the dog at the old/residual scent be less than your reward for the indication on the next source (multiple hides)?

If I have a several sources set out, we find the first, I reward with the ball, make a fuss etc and say 'we have more' and resend. If he gets caught up in the scent of the first find, I will say in a happy voice "good boy, you already got that one, lets go", but no ball. I will tell him that before he indicates again if I can help it.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Jennifer Michelson said:


> Jim, In the training scenario, would your praise of the dog at the old/residual scent be less than your reward for the indication on the next source (multiple hides)?
> 
> If I have a several sources set out, we find the first, I reward with the ball, make a fuss etc and say 'we have more' and resend. If he gets caught up in the scent of the first find, I will say in a happy voice "good boy, you already got that one, lets go", but no ball. I will tell him that before he indicates again if I can help it.


Looking forward to hearing; there is some good info here......I do the same, Btw. I say "good boy, work again" unless he is actively searching then hits it from another angle and then I reward since it is a "new" find.


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Jennifer Michelson said:


> Jim, In the training scenario, would your praise of the dog at the old/residual scent be less than your reward for the indication on the next source (multiple hides)?
> 
> If I have a several sources set out, we find the first, I reward with the ball, make a fuss etc and say 'we have more' and resend. If he gets caught up in the scent of the first find, I will say in a happy voice "good boy, you already got that one, lets go", but no ball. I will tell him that before he indicates again if I can help it.


I woudn't make too much a fuss . Just a few pats on the head and a "good boy " then redirect him . 

Do you always have such a big conversation with your dog ? 

Sorry couldn't help myself .


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## Jennifer Michelson (Sep 20, 2006)

Jim Nash said:


> I woudn't make too much a fuss . Just a few pats on the head and a "good boy " then redirect him .
> 
> Do you always have such a big conversation with your dog ?
> 
> Sorry couldn't help myself .


If I knew how to do the plllllllbbbtttt smiley, I would....What can I say, I get happy when I train and I start talking!! I could try to cut it down to, say 5 words! "good boy, move it along"


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## Pete Stevens (Dec 16, 2010)

The difference between fringe odor and residual is that with fringe odor the dog needs to get to source. I don't reward on fringe if I think the dog isn't sourcing. I have to take several factors into account and also remember that this is training. I get to cheat a little so I can avoid problems in the field. For instance, lets say I put out a find of 1 ounce of cocaine HCL as a high find. The dog alerts directly below thesource. Is the dog wrong? No, but we need to get to source so I my sweep my hand in an upward motion and get the dog to sniff high. You can tell when they are working odor by the way they are breathing. If the dog is vacuuming its way up the scent cone and alerts, pay em'. Then set up a similar scenario a little later to see if they got it. 

Like someone else said, if its just a run back to the spot and alert with no sniffing, no reward. If the dog sniffs its way to a previous find source, "good dog" and a search command to keep them going. Besides, praise off's should be part of your training anyway. I don't speak for everyone, but I don't reward in the field unless I know the dope is there and can see it with my own eyes. And usually reserve that for just the green stuff because MSM looks a lot like meth and is often used as a cutting agent. I don't want to start rewarding for stuff I don't know is actual dope. I will sometimes take some cotton balls that have been sitting wth my dope into a scene. If the dogs needs to get motivated say like after the 5th room with nothing, set out a fresh cottonball and let the dog find it then reward and start searching again. I would not and do not suggest bringing actual dope into a scene. But of you are going to use the dog a probable cause, bring absolutely nothing.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Pete Stevens said:


> The difference between fringe odor and residual is that with fringe odor the dog needs to get to source. I don't reward on fringe if I think the dog isn't sourcing. I have to take several factors into account and also remember that this is training. I get to cheat a little so I can avoid problems in the field. For instance, lets say I put out a find of 1 ounce of cocaine HCL as a high find. The dog alerts directly below thesource. Is the dog wrong? No, but we need to get to source so I my sweep my hand in an upward motion and get the dog to sniff high. You can tell when they are working odor by the way they are breathing. If the dog is vacuuming its way up the scent cone and alerts, pay em'. Then set up a similar scenario a little later to see if they got it.
> 
> Like someone else said, if its just a run back to the spot and alert with no sniffing, no reward. If the dog sniffs its way to a previous find source, "good dog" and a search command to keep them going. Besides, praise off's should be part of your training anyway. I don't speak for everyone, but I don't reward in the field unless I know the dope is there and can see it with my own eyes. And usually reserve that for just the green stuff because MSM looks a lot like meth and is often used as a cutting agent. I don't want to start rewarding for stuff I don't know is actual dope. I will sometimes take some cotton balls that have been sitting wth my dope into a scene. If the dogs needs to get motivated say like after the 5th room with nothing, set out a fresh cottonball and let the dog find it then reward and start searching again. I would not and do not suggest bringing actual dope into a scene. But of you are going to use the dog a probable cause, bring absolutely nothing.


I reward for fringing...I bet you do too...


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

Dave Colborn said:


> I reward for fringing...I bet you do too...


I have seen more and more handlers goto the way Peter(I will get his name right even though he called me Mario) described. I can understand why.


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## Pete Stevens (Dec 16, 2010)

Sorry Will, I have a friend named Mario Fernadez and I've been drinking pretty much all day so my bad. Dave- I really try not to if I know my dog is close. I'll let her find it own her own, but she is pretty good at realizing that she isn't getting paid so she needs to start sniffing and follow the scent cone. The great thing about this dog is she really does a good job about finding source. My trainer had us going to source a long time ago. Plus you gotta remember I'm in California, everything smells like weed!


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Pete. If you reward your dog for an 8 foot hide that the dog sits beneath. You just rewarded a fringe. I don't know if you do that or not, but my guess is that you do, since you mentioned it in your last post. If the dog is reliable and casts itself high, is there any need for me to get my hand in the way, move the odor possibly and then have the dog sit on nothing and me reward it?


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Dave Colborn said:


> Pete. If you reward your dog for an 8 foot hide that the dog sits beneath. You just rewarded a fringe.


 My last boy actually jumped that high, hit it with his nose, and landed in a sit.:mrgreen: No fringe on that one. lol

I will say that the more you test your dog, the higher the chances of rewarding on fringe alerts. Some dogs will go through fire to hit source, others are like "close enough, I'm gonna alert".


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Howard Knauf said:


> My last boy actually jumped that high, hit it with his nose, and landed in a sit.:mrgreen: No fringe on that one. lol
> 
> I will say that the more you test your dog, the higher the chances of rewarding on fringe alerts. Some dogs will go through fire to hit source, others are like "close enough, I'm gonna alert".



High or deep, if you are pushing them, then they get rewarded for a fringe. Unless you take that time to go variable reward on them...My point was that it is acceptable to reward a fringe, either high or deep, unless you got the dog with springs, which apparently you do....


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## Pete Stevens (Dec 16, 2010)

Dave you are absolutely right. I do reward on fringe since you worded in that way. I should say I want my dog to get to the strong source odor that they possibly can get to. On an 8' high find and she got off he front legs and tried to get to source, yup- I'd reward for that. My bad for not being specific on saying as close to source as possible.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Pete Stevens said:


> Dave you are absolutely right. I do reward on fringe since you worded in that way. I should say I want my dog to get to the strong source odor that they possibly can get to. On an 8' high find and she got off he front legs and tried to get to source, yup- I'd reward for that. My bad for not being specific on saying as close to source as possible.



I gotcha Pete. I just think it's funny when a handler rewards a dog for a high hide, then goes into the next room and wonders why the dog is three feet away. They are almost offended it seems. I want the dog to get to source too. But if a hide is at 8 feet and the dog sits four feet to the left, is he wrong? now we get into the issue of odor goggles and scent cones, pooling, etc


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## Pete Stevens (Dec 16, 2010)

That's a whole new thread Dave, lemme pour another drink for that one.


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## Holly Huryn (Mar 12, 2008)

Sooo ... I hope this isn't the stupidest question ever - when you say "fringe alert" what exactly does that mean?? A certain distance away from the actual source? I really, really, need to be able to see a good dog and handler in action!


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Holly Huryn said:


> Sooo ... I hope this isn't the stupidest question ever - when you say "fringe alert" what exactly does that mean?? A certain distance away from the actual source? I really, really, need to be able to see a good dog and handler in action!


Fringe odor would be the lesser concentration of odor that is available to the dog . Usually further away from the source . The dog should be able to work this fringe odor into a stronger and stronger concentration of odor eventually getting to the area that has the most concentration of odor available for the dog to smell where it's preferable that it alerts there .

It's like the first moment you realize someone has farted . You know the point where you go " WTF ?! " and just before you get the full effect and yell " You f****** stink ! " and leave the room .


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Say we are dealing with just one hide in a room with no competing hides or odors the dog is trained to find . Just that one hide . For me an "alert" to fringe odor in that situation would be any alert to that particular odor that isn't the strongest concentration of that odor that is available for the dog to find . 

Scent work is not easy though , just because a dog alerts say 3' from where the hide actually is doesn't mean it's alerting on fringe odor . It could be that the environment ( physical structures , wind , currents , heat or air conditioners , etc. ) are causing the most concentrated source of odor available for the dog to find to be emminating 3' from the original hide . 

An example can be drugs hidden under a hood of a veh at the base of the windshield . Wind direction along with the structure of the vehicle could cause a draft that blows the odor 3' down the hood seam with the odor exiting out near the headlight . This draft could be so strong and the route it took so well contained that the strongest amount of odor available for the dog to smell is actually coming from near the headlight and not near the hide itself .

I've seen this while judging USPCA detector trials . Usually we have about 20-30 dogs and a rare occassion a particular hide will turn out like this with the majority of dogs alerting in the same spot but a good distance from the hide . Just because it alerted a distance away from the hide doesn't mean this was a fringe alert , it was simply the dogs alerting to the strongest concentration of odor available for them to get to . 

It gets confusing I know but that's the cool thing about the work . Sometimes it's a big puzzle you have to work out regardless if it's trying to locate narcotics , an EDD or even a badguy .


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

In scent work always be aware of the wind direction or for inside be aware of the role drafts and the way something as simple as an airconditioner or heat coming on or off can change the way scent flows . 

While I drive around on patrol I always pay attention to which way flags are blowing when I pass them , in oder to get a general feel for the conditions . Even then buildings or other manmade or natural structures can effect the flow of scent or the wind direction could change at any moment . Inside a building I'll use the smoke from a match to see if the closed door of a room is blowing air out of the room or sucking it in . If I hear the heat or air come on or shut off I'll check the door again to see if things have reversed which they sometimes do . 

Around here I always encourage handlers to pay attention to the snow falling and notice how things like buildings and curbs can form aircurrents and adjust the flow of scent . Sometimes scent work can get very challenging but it's amazing how these dogs can still work it out and be successful .


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## Tyree Johnson (Jun 21, 2010)

don't want to hijack this thread, but i guess it kind of fits ... what about drop ceilings? how would a dog go about alerting on a ceiling tile? always wondered that .....


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

We can't see scent and sometimes it does strange things.....makes it hard sometimes to know if the dog is fringing or really is in the strongest scent. 

It is very educational to me to work mulitiple dogs on the same problem because the dogs usually agree on exactly where it is and sometimes it is not at the location. BUt that is not fringing - it is fringing when they alert when the first hit scent and don't go in on it.

But a buried body-on a hill- the scent may come out somewhere down the hill. Underwater - there are currents underwater and scent can travel before it breaks the surface....all the dog can tell you is where it broke the surface........A tree? there is sometimes a scent void right under the body.

Hatch Graham had some really neat stuff on scent trasnsport years ago and the book "fire weather" now out of print but available on the web also some neat stuff.


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## Pete Stevens (Dec 16, 2010)

Finds in a ceiling are interesting but you should be able to see your dog casting high. I just did a training scenario where the dope was hanging from the ceiling about 6 feet off the ground. My dog worked it and I knew she was working the scent cone that was falling from the source. It took her a bit to figure it out but she got to source and sat under the dope after leaping high. If you she a change in behavior like that where the dog is casting its head high, start looking there but be aware of air currents. And yes Dave- I paid her on the fringe!


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Jim Nash said:


> I don't see pointing as being the problem . The sweep of the hand could cause the same behavior . If a dog false alerts when the handler points at something you have to look at why that dog is associating pointing with the it giving a false alert .


I agree 100%, just saying it is a peeve of mine due to experience watching it happen, and then take the "point" away from the handler and the dog does not false alert. 

I think it is more (in my experience) that I would see handlers slow down in order to point (slow=cue #1) to an area and then they do not move their finger until the dog sees it and gets close (cue #2) and then they start telling the dog "good" or "yes" when the dog sticks its nose where they want (cue #3)......take that away and utilize just a hand sweep and keep them moving and the false alerts drop dramatically or stop all together. 

Teaching proper detail work is also important. 

back to the topic of false alerts.......


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