# The best GSD currently on the planet



## Jeff Oehlsen

Here he is, with the most amazing OG EVER !!!!

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x9s62o_ulko-a-brive-finale-ring-2009_sport?from=mailalert_us


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## susan tuck

thanks Jeff, that was great to see.


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## Drew Peirce

Best for what? 
That circus act or the real world?


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## Connie Sutherland

Drew Peirce said:


> Best for what?
> That circus act or the real world?


?

I don't understand. I was very impressed. What'd I miss?


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## Mike Scheiber

Drew Peirce said:


> Best for what?
> That circus act or the real world?[/quote
> ]What you got? Its all target shooting till its live :lol:
> "I'm not easily impressed"


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## Al Curbow

Drew, do you think the dog is a shitter? just curious


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## Jason Fox

Excellent!


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## Bob Scott

Calm, clear headed, correct and a damn nice looking dog!
I'll take that circus act any day of the week/month/yr/decade !!!!


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## Connie Sutherland

Bob Scott said:


> Calm, clear headed, correct and a damn nice looking dog! ....


Oh, good. I thought that I had missed something embarrassingly obvious, from the circus comment , and I loved the dog.


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## Bob Scott

Connie Sutherland said:


> Oh, good. I thought that I had missed something embarrassingly obvious, from the circus comment , and I loved the dog.


Doesn't make me right. That would mean I was agreeing with Jeff. :lol:


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## Terrasita Cuffie

So how do you distinguish this OG from the last GSD OG Jeff posted?

Terrasita


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## Bob Scott

The one before was a bit more intense. Not good or bad but I really like the calm attitude of this one. Not gonna waste effort if the decoy isn't gonna make him work. Still very focused on what it's doing. 
The few head turns can look like uninterested but the dog still is right on top his object and doesnt get fooled or drawn off by anything the decoy does.
Jeff?


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## Jeff Oehlsen

The last one was earlier in the year. This dog has the best understanding of the object guard, the way I understand it, that I have ever seen.

I look at the head turn as his way of trying to sucker the guy in.

Of course, this was the best ever, as it was at the CHAMPIONSHIP. Dogs there EARN the right to be there.

Drew, sorry the dog wasn't "real" enough for you. Unfortunately, there are many of us that don't walk around scared to death because our "real" dog isn't there. Those of us that do not see the bad guy around every corner, do other things with our dogs, like this guy and his son do FR.

Until you can show us your dog even coming halfway close to the quality of this dog, I yell bullshit right in your face, and laugh at you while pointing my finger. Maybe your "real" dog would try and bite me. :roll:] ](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)](*,)


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## Connie Sutherland

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> The last one was earlier in the year. This dog has the best understanding of the object guard, the way I understand it, that I have ever seen.
> 
> I look at the head turn as his way of trying to sucker the guy in.


It was good that I had the pre-comments on the OG so I was sure to look closely and see the head turns "looking" uninterested.


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## Bob Scott

GSD
The thinking dog for the thinking handler!!:grin:=P~


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## ann schnerre

ok, this may bring on some "stupid question" replies, but i don't care--i want to know.

what does this dog's body language say to you?

i'm so used to watching dogs work high in (prey) drive that it threw me to watch this vid. i have my thoughts, but would like to hear fr more experienced ppl on the question b/f i REALLY expose my ignorance (or not). 

i do like the dog for a number of reasons...

ok, never mind, while i was watching the vid, all y'all posted.


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## Connie Sutherland

ann freier said:


> what does this dog's body language say to you?....


That the dog is smart and confident and clear-headed.


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## ann schnerre

Bob Scott said:


> Not gonna waste effort ...


see, that's what i was thinking i saw fr the get-go with the dog--conservation of energy; "yeah, i'll jump the jumps, but i'm not gonna use any more than i have to to do it".


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## Bob Scott

Sort of a Clint Eastwood/John Wayne sort of confidence. 
Cool, calm, clear but don't piss him off cause he KNOWS he can take you out.
Real confidence doesn't need a lot of excitability.


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## Connie Sutherland

Bob Scott said:


> Sort of a Clint Eastwood/John Wayne sort of confidence.
> Cool, calm, clear but don't piss him off cause he KNOWS he can take you out.
> Real confidence doesn't need a lot of excitability.


AH-HAHAHAHAHAHA!

I love this analogy. The John Wayne of the GSD world. 

Or Clint Eastwood -- the head turns being the equivalent of "Go ahead, punk; make my day" ?


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Maybe this will work, but I think that it may actually be more this attitude.

Nope, couldn't get it to work.


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## ann schnerre

Connie Sutherland said:


> Or Clint Eastwood -- the head turns being the equivalent of "Go ahead, punk; make my day" ?


have you seen "gran torino"? AWESOME clint e. flick...

anyway, the tail is what really threw me--no crazy prey-drive wagging: held low, steady, just "there"--know what i mean?? i just wasn't sure i was seeing what i thought i was seeing.


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## Drew Peirce

Clarification, he's undoubtedly the best GSD on the planet in that event, and the basic foundations required for him to reach that level are unquestioned, there's no ***** in his armor or anything about him that can be faulted or called a flaw, I wouldnt argue that he's the best at what he does.
But what about the police k9's working in crime ridden ghetto's across the US and abroad, some retiring with 100 felony apprehensions in a career, or service dogs that have taken a bullet or a knife and given their lives in defense of their handler rather than give up the fight.
Finally, I'm not saying ulko wouldnt be as great on the street as he is in the arena, maybe he would, all I'm saying is define the roles, greatest sporting GSD on the planet? absolutely. Greatest real world GSD on the planet? We'll never know.


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## Julie Blanding

This dog and his performance was absolutely nothing short of amazing.
Thanks for posting the video Jeff 

Julie


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Drew, no one really cares about "real". You look like a goofball trying to talk about stupid barely trained k9's right now.

Watch the video again, and just imagine that it is ok to be in a sport. Pour a shot of Jack and just sip it while you watch.

See ?? Everything is not so serious. This is just a dog that has PROVEN that he is the greatest GSD on the planet. Not someones opinion, not some Sch dog all spun up with pinch collars and frustration, and actual by GOD correct threshold German Shepherd dog.

The GSD people should all be on their knees right now thanking God that their is one like this left.


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## Michelle Reusser

I love love love him. His attitude looks very much like a dog I know. A little bit selfish and some might say lazy but just thrifty with his energy. He's 100% sure of himself and always comfortable. How many of our dogs can be worked by the decoy and then walk off the field casually with no leash? That is complete and utter control my friends. You wont see many police dogs doing that for sure. I think this dog is a ****ing genious wearing a coat and would make a mighty police dog, if he was put to that task.

I think his greatness is his full understanding of what is being asked of him, not to put aside his nerves of steel and 100% stable temperament. The look on this dogs face is pricelss. I also dig that he looks into the decoys face during the guards, uses his body to trip the decoy up in the escorts, he's just plain smart. I'd like to know what dogs the trainer has trained before. How much of this is pure dog and what is trained technique? His object guards are just beyond words.


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## Carlos Martins

It really is the best GSD known in french ring...definitely on in a million GSD.

I've been there watching and Ulko is impressive thats for sure and even more when you can compare live and in real time with other competitors.

Allez Ulko!!!


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## Jeff Oehlsen

The mans son, who walks out to the podium in the beginning is his decoy. Guess what his favorite exercise is ????


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## Khoi Pham

I must be the only one then, I think his protection work is great, well trained, took alot to get to that level, but his OB is not that good, couldn't clear the hurdle, hit the long jump, slow to sit after the jump, not very focus on handler for next command, just taking his time about it, like ok I'll do it on my sweet own time, there is no drive in this dog to do OB like protection work, so no I don't think he is the greatest.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

We all know that you are a clueless sch junkie, so that is ok. Your sport of choice has proven over and over that it is shit, so EVERYTHING you judge things by come from your foundation of Shit (hund.)

Get a GSD and go do FR and then tell me your pitiful story. : )

Oh yes, and by the way, you would be wrong, he is the greatest GSD currently on the planet.


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## Khoi Pham

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> We all know that you are a clueless sch junkie, so that is ok. Your sport of choice has proven over and over that it is shit, so EVERYTHING you judge things by come from your foundation of Shit (hund.)
> 
> Get a GSD and go do FR and then tell me your pitiful story. : )
> 
> Oh yes, and by the way, you would be wrong, he is the greatest GSD currently on the planet.


Why are you so defensive? nobody will agree on everything, just because I don't agree with Jeff's greatest GS and you start to calling me clueless sch junkie, and other sport shit, btw Shutzhund is not my sport of choice, PSA is my sport of choice, look at what put below my name.
Oh yeah I can hear it coming, PSA is shits too, (-: yeah we all know you too well.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Jeff:

I would LOVE a comment or two on how you can watch this dog's performance and know what his innate thresholds are vs. trained response. What are the things that stand out to you in looking at thresholds.

Terrasita


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## Jeff Oehlsen

I am not defensive, not even a little bit. You look at a great GSD, and comment on a ****ing slow sit.

WTF has speedy OB got to do with anything, unless it is judged from a retarded Shit (hund) view ??

How hard is it to recognize greatness for you ?? I guess as long as your dog sits fast, then he is the Uber dog. LOL Yes, I just called you a retard again. : )

Quote: I would LOVE a comment or two on how you can watch this dog's performance and know what his innate thresholds are vs. trained response.

That is an entirely different thread, and one that quite honestly I wouldn't respond too. There are some things that I will spend time explaining, but this one ? Nope.


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## Connie Sutherland

LOL!

I wouldn't even want to read such a thread. It would detract from the happiness of watching that dog work. 

I know, I know ...... :lol:


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## Jeff Oehlsen

I just find it funny that a GSD goes out and does the amazing, and the comment was on a slow sit.

Go look up how many times this dog had to trial, and score well to get there. Not like here where you just show up. Shows how little they know about what a good dog looks like, and how petty Sch has become. Like the test of a great dog is OB. Good God that was a dumb thing to say. Then again, they said the same thing about Sarco. Why am I suprised ??


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## Khoi Pham

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I am not defensive, not even a little bit. You look at a great GSD, and comment on a ****ing slow sit.
> 
> WTF has speedy OB got to do with anything, unless it is judged from a retarded Shit (hund) view ??
> 
> How hard is it to recognize greatness for you ?? I guess as long as your dog sits fast, then he is the Uber dog. LOL Yes, I just called you a retard again. : )
> 
> Quote: I would LOVE a comment or two on how you can watch this dog's performance and know what his innate thresholds are vs. trained response.
> 
> That is an entirely different thread, and one that quite honestly I wouldn't respond too. There are some things that I will spend time explaining, but this one ? Nope.


Yes you are defensive, in dog term, an active defense drive, when you see threat to your belief you attack, yes you are like a dog with active defense drive, which is not bad, I rather have a dog with active defense drive than passive defense drive (run away when he see threat)
Retard to me is somebody that don't like his current situation but do nothing about it, under you name you wrote you hate stupid San Antonio, yet you still live there for the past 2 years or so, if you hate it so much you need to move, I suggest you move to France so you can do your French ring, so it is you that is retared not me.(-:
You have the last word, I'm through wasting my time with a retard and this greatest GS on the planet.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Poor little koi, hates being the little fish in the pond and lashes out at a GREAT performance, never considering that the criteria for this sport might not be the same as his precious Sch.

Of course you are through, I can only make you look MORE of an idiot. In fact, right now, there is NO WAY I can possibly make you look more stupid, unless I put a dress on you and paraded you around Dallas........you haven't done that...have you ?? =D>=D>=D>=D>=D>


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## Geoff Empey

It's all about the 'OG' please remember that everyone!


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## susan tuck

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> We all know that you are a clueless sch junkie, so that is ok. Your sport of choice has proven over and over that it is shit, so EVERYTHING you judge things by come from your foundation of Shit (hund.)
> 
> Get a GSD and go do FR and then tell me your pitiful story. : )
> 
> Oh yes, and by the way, you would be wrong, he is the greatest GSD currently on the planet.


AND there departs the newer kinder gentler Jeff.....

1. Why yes I am, in fact my cars plate's are: SCHJNKY

2. It is well understood that in your opinion schutzhund is shit, and you are certainly entitled to your learned opinion. I will be the first one to raise my hand agree that there are areas that should be improved (in my opinion, not fact), but to say it has been proven to be shit is nonsense.

3. I agree the comments about the slow sits and other aspects of the OB routine are COMPLETELY immaterial and have nothing to do with the greatness of this dog, since that is only a matter of training and sport styles.

4. I would say he is arguably one of the finest GSDs in the world today, and I am VERY grateful to Jeff for posting this and other videos of GSDs who have competed at the upper echelons of grip sports other than schutzhund, it is inspiring and rarely do we get to see dogs like this in person.

AND NOW FOR MY BEST TRICK: I WILL MAKE MY SELF APPEAR EVEN STUPIDERER THAN USUAL WITH THE FOLLOWING QUESTION:
WTF IS OG? ALL I CAN THINK OF IS 'OLD GANGSTA' AND I AM PRETTY SURE I AM WRONG HERE.


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## Connie Sutherland

Object guard


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## Connie Sutherland

susan tuck said:


> I agree the comments about the slow sits and other aspects of the OB routine are COMPLETELY immaterial and have nothing to do with the greatness of this dog, since that is only a matter of training and sport styles. .... I would say he is arguably one of the finest GSDs in the world today, and I am VERY grateful to Jeff for posting this and other videos of GSDs who have competed at the upper echelons of grip sports other than schutzhund, it is inspiring and rarely do we get to see dogs like this in person. ....


I too loooove to see dogs (and training) of this caliber. That's the kind of video to watch again and bookmark.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: 
4. I would say he is arguably one of the finest GSDs in the world today, and I am VERY grateful to Jeff for posting this and other videos of GSDs who have competed at the upper echelons of grip sports other than schutzhund, it is inspiring and rarely do we get to see dogs like this in person.

I did not see where he had opposable thumbs that allowed him to "grip". However, he is the best on the planet, opposable thumbs or not.

Quote: AND there departs the newer kinder gentler Jeff.....

How the **** did that get started ??:-k Better nip that in the bud, you guys are all ****tards. :-D =D>=D>=D>=D>=D>


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## susan tuck

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote:
> 4. I would say he is arguably one of the finest GSDs in the world today, and I am VERY grateful to Jeff for posting this and other videos of GSDs who have competed at the upper echelons of grip sports other than schutzhund, it is inspiring and rarely do we get to see dogs like this in person.
> 
> I did not see where he had opposable thumbs that allowed him to "grip". However, he is the best on the planet, opposable thumbs or not.
> 
> Quote: AND there departs the newer kinder gentler Jeff.....
> 
> How the **** did that get started ??:-k Better nip that in the bud, you guys are all ****tards. :-D =D>=D>=D>=D>=D>


It's all part of an evil plan to completey besmirch your reputation as a hard ass.

So I am still waiting to hear what's the deal with the initials "OG"?


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## Jeff Oehlsen

You guys really need someone harder than Khoi for me to kick around. The obvious Sch foundation in his life shows right through. LOL The only problem is, he is too easy to tease and he falls for it.

It is a shame that the two ****tards had to ruin a good thread about the best GSD on the planet. Good for them for having the wrong opinion about what a dog should be. More kicking for me when I am bored. : )


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## Connie Sutherland

susan tuck said:


> ..... So I am still waiting to hear what's the deal with the initials "OG"?


I answered you, Sue. 

Bottom page 2. Object guard.


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## Connie Sutherland

susan tuck said:


> It's all part of an evil plan to completey besmirch your reputation as a hard ass. ...


Jeff's reputation is safe. :lol:


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## susan tuck

Connie Sutherland said:


> I answered you, Sue.
> 
> Bottom page 2. Object guard.


OH!.............(no, OH GEEEEE whiz) Okay, thanks.


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## Paul Fox

Connie Sutherland said:


> Jeff's reputation is safe. :lol:


Jeff is legion! 8)


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## Adi Ibrahimbegovic

I don't know about the BEST in the world overall, but definitely the best in French Ring and one of the top 1% of the GSDs in the world today.

As Jeff knows I had my eye on this dog for a while - he is one kick ass intelligent dog, he so THOROUGHLY understands what is asked of him and how to perform a task, it is scary. One smart mo fo, for sure.


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## Erik Berg

It´s probably the best GSD in french ring, nothing more, nothing less.


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## susan tuck

Also in my opinion, in this video this dog is working in prey drive Anne, extremely high prey drive. Sometimes people equate hectic with high prey drive which is a mistake, one does not go hand in hand with the other. When the decoy does press him into defense, he remains clear headed too.


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## Mike Scheiber

Hes a nice dog no arguments and it's fun watching good Shepherd in another venue I don't know much about the Ring Sports except there is allot of shit to teach so my guess is this handler focused his training on building a great understanding of what must be for the bite work. Putting more emphasis on the other stuff in my opinion would take away effort and time form the bitework.
Threes to much shit to train for in ring for me buy the time one thing is in order something else would turn to shit I'm to anal id go nutz


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## Bob Scott

All three of my dogs have a faster sit. 
MY DOGS ARE BETTER!!!! :razz::razz::razz:


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## Connie Sutherland

Bob Scott said:


> All three of my dogs have a faster sit.
> MY DOGS ARE BETTER!!!! :razz::razz::razz:



LOL!!!!!



:lol: :lol:


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## jay kutilek

so jeff what have you done in sch.to be such an expert?


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## ann schnerre

jay kutilek said:


> so jeff what have you done in sch.to be such an expert?


and here we go....

it'd be nice if ppl wouldn't try to derail threads w/personal attacks, but, WTF...:-&


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## Bob Scott

jay kutilek said:


> so jeff what have you done in sch.to be such an expert?


And such a nice first post! Not even an intro in the New Members forum. 
Lets keep it on topic folks!


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## brad robert

This has been my view on this for a while but is the obedience such a secondary concern in these ring sports is it because they are primarily a test of nerves toughness and working desires in bite work and obedience is something easily taught and of no concern where the type of traits needed for these sports are not something easily covered up by training like obedience can be


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## Kadi Thingvall

brad robert said:


> This has been my view on this for a while but is the obedience such a secondary concern in these ring sports is it because they are primarily a test of nerves toughness and working desires in bite work and obedience is something easily taught and of no concern where the type of traits needed for these sports are not something easily covered up by training like obedience can be


I don't think I'd call it a secondary concern, obedience is HUGE in the Ring sports, not just in the obedience portion but in the protection portion also. But the attitude is more about getting the job done correctly then "how" it's done. Ie does the dog sit, down, stand, heel, come, stay, etc on command? Yes, then you are good to go. It's not about how animated, upbeat, focused, whatever the dog looks to be while obeying the commands, just that he does it. On the flip side you don't loose points if you want to train for attitude, it's just not required.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: so jeff what have you done in sch.to be such an expert?

Welcome to why dogsports in the US is the worlds little bitch.

Did you watch the video ?? Are you horrified because the dog doesn't prance around like a little gay pony ?? What is it exactly that makes you think otherwise ??

Do you even train a dog ?? That would be a nice start.

The emphasis for ob in ring is very obviously geared towards the bitework. So until you can say something smarter than "what makes you the expert" you can go sit on the sidelines, with your spun up prancing ponies. What is the matter, he didn't show his teeth, and show displacement behavior in the blind ??

Let me know if any of those terms confused you, like blind for example. What you are if you cannot see the obvious.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Bob, quite that stupid herding, and get some Mondio going up there. 

Funny, I had to delete down there. I guess I am not used to my geographical location yet. Damn south.


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## milder batmusen

he looks like a great dog and he look good to 

I would like to have a puppy from this dog O


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## Mike Scheiber

Bob Scott said:


> And such a nice first post! Not even an intro in the New Members forum.
> Lets keep it on topic folks!


Your rite he should have introduced himself how ever a question that should be answered and made a sticky.


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## susan tuck

Kadi Thingvall said:


> I don't think I'd call it a secondary concern, obedience is HUGE in the Ring sports, not just in the obedience portion but in the protection portion also. But the attitude is more about getting the job done correctly then "how" it's done. Ie does the dog sit, down, stand, heel, come, stay, etc on command? Yes, then you are good to go. It's not about how animated, upbeat, focused, whatever the dog looks to be while obeying the commands, just that he does it. On the flip side you don't loose points if you want to train for attitude, it's just not required.


Really, it's this 2ndary obedience that is the hardest and displays the real training and control anyway.


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## Khoi Pham

brad robert said:


> This has been my view on this for a while but is the obedience such a secondary concern in these ring sports is it because they are primarily a test of nerves toughness and working desires in bite work and obedience is something easily taught and of no concern where the type of traits needed for these sports are not something easily covered up by training like obedience can be


Obedience is easy to train, it is the attitude for OB and focus to the handler that is hard to train, you can train any dogs to sit down and stand and jump, but to train a dog to perform the same task with speed and precision and happy attitude and focus to the handler required either alot of pressure on the dog or very skill trainer or both, and alot more training, the more OB and control you put on the dog, the weaker his bitework will be or his drive for bitework is less, I fully understand that ring sport does not required tight OB, but if you required that same dog to have tight and focus OB, his protection work might not be the same, you can see his attitude change, it was like a different dog going from OB to Protection, in protection he has fast out, fast down fast recall, in OB everything is in slomo, I bet the guy that blows the horn to signal the next exercise has to wait for the dog to down or sit before he can blow it again for the next exercice or end of exercise, whether in protection he can just blow it whenever he want and not have to wait for the dog, I said this before and I will say it again, I don't have problem with his protection work, it takes alot of training to get to that level, but if you have to put the pressure on the dog to perform in OB at the same level as his bitework, it could be a different dog in protection.


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## Guest

> but if you have to put the pressure on the dog to perform in OB at the same level as his bitework, it could be a different dog in protection.


Is that generally how one achieves animated obedience? With "pressure"?


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## susan tuck

Khoi Pham said:


> Obedience is easy to train, it is the attitude for OB and focus to the handler that is hard to train, you can train any dogs to sit down and stand and jump, but to train a dog to perform the same task with speed and precision and happy attitude and focus to the handler required either alot of pressure on the dog or very skill trainer or both, and alot more training, the more OB and control you put on the dog, the weaker his bitework will be or his drive for bitework is less, I fully understand that ring sport does not required tight OB, but if you required that same dog to have tight and focus OB, his protection work might not be the same, you can see his attitude change, it was like a different dog going from OB to Protection, in protection he has fast out, fast down fast recall, in OB everything is in slomo, I bet the guy that blows the horn to signal the next exercise has to wait for the dog to down or sit before he can blow it again for the next exercice or end of exercise, whether in protection he can just blow it whenever he want and not have to wait for the dog, I said this before and I will say it again, I don't have problem with his protection work, it takes alot of training to get to that level, but if you have to put the pressure on the dog to perform in OB at the same level as his bitework, it could be a different dog in protection.


Your criticism (legitimate or not), is about the sport, not this particular dog. Perhaps a new thread should be started about changes you would like to see implemented in rings sports? I disagree that what you are terming as an attitude change automatically means a weakness on the part of this dog. In any case, this is pure speculation since neither of us knows ANYTHING about this particular dogs training. I am not saying there are not weakness, I am saying it is impossible for anyone to look at this one video and determine from it this dog can't take pressure. You are jumping.....maybe even LEAPING to conclusions.


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## Khoi Pham

Steven Lepic said:


> Is that generally how one achieves animated obedience? With "pressure"?


No, either motivation alone, or pressure + motivation


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## Khoi Pham

susan tuck said:


> Your criticism (legitimate or not), is about the sport, not this particular dog. Perhaps a new thread should be started about changes you would like to see implemented in rings sports? I disagree that what you are terming as an attitude change automatically means a weakness on the part of this dog. In any case, this is pure speculation since neither of us knows ANYTHING about this particular dogs training. I am not saying there are not weakness, I am saying it is impossible for anyone to look at this one video and determine from it this dog can't take pressure. You are jumping.....maybe even LEAPING to conclusions.


I said it COULD be a different dog in protection, I never said anything about automaticallly a weak dog if his Obedience is at the same level, please don't put words in my mouth, we can agree to dissagree, I think the dog came to life when protection start, he is doing what he likes, so as most dog, if you can make the dog love obedience just as much as protection, that is another level. Just my opinion.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

I try and try to tell you that this is ringsport. You see, Sch USED to look like that. The dog did what it was told to do.

The interesting thing is that you think that a person should waste time with prancy pony OB.

Did you notice that the dog was actually in the heel position, and not forging and crowding the handler ?? Since you are talking about pressure, and you know nothing of this dog, how do you know that there was no "pressure" ??? I would LOVE to hear that explanation.

Since the OB got better in the bitework, and "seemed" more animated, how do you think it was done ??? Do you think they used marker training ???

C'mon Koi, let me boot you around a little more. You are really showing your ass this time.


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## susan tuck

Khoi Pham said:


> I said it COULD be a different dog in protection, I never said anything about automaticallly a weak dog if his Obedience is at the same level, please don't put words in my mouth, we can agree to dissagree, I think the dog came to life when protection start, he is doing what he likes, so as most dog, if you can make the dog love obedience just as much as protection, that is another level. Just my opinion.


Sorry Khoi, I did misread what you said. I am sure you would agree, most dogs competing at the upper echelons of schtuzhund have animated and precise OB because they understand the pressure of "I Must", whether they like OB or not is immaterial.


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## Michelle Reusser

Koi the OB is not dragging due to any pressure or lack there of. The handler simply doesn't care or hasn't found a way to best reward the dog to get that cracked out OB. My dog is the EXACT same way. MUCH better OB/Focus/animation in the bitework because he gets his ultimate reward (a bite). A ball or tug will get him only so jacked up, for only so long, before he flattens out again. Honestly I could get that focus and as Jeff likes to call it, (pony prance) out of my dog more (if I gave a shit). But I don't and that is why I do PSA, not Schutzhund. I'm not into all that mind ****ing for a few minutes of laser precision OB. Unless training your dog is your life/career, you get the essentials down and go about enjoying your life, or like me, working myself to death for a paying job. Me, I want efficiant in the OB and impressive in the bitework. I have to pick my poison. All I care is that my dog can work, not giving a real shit if it's the prettiest out there. He's my first sport dog and I'm just glad I haven't screwed him 6 ways from Sunday.

For the practicle out there, why perfect what doesn't bring more points anyway?

Also remember the FR routine is WAAAAAY longer than a Sch routine


----------



## susan tuck

Just to clear something up, precise, driven and focused OB has nothing to do with the ball,or "pony prancing" Michelle. 

The ball, tug, food, (whatever) may be used to motivate the dog into correct position & to teach the dog what you want in THE BEGINNING. After that he learns I MUST, which means he MUST work in drive, and be correct, whether he likes OB or not. This is where the demonstration of power under pressure comes in as far as the OB portion of schutzhund. 

This is the problem with people who critisize schutzhund but who have not studied or trained in it. They tend to write off things they do not understand.

This is why I do not critisize sports I do not have a working knowledge in.


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: This is where the demonstration of power under pressure comes in as far as the OB portion of schutzhund.

WHAT POWER ??

All you are doing different is shaping the prancing pony. I really doubt that there was less pressure at some point in that dogs life. There is no POWER in OB, just a different shaped behavior.

How long could your dog maintain that if you were doing a ring 3 routine ?? How much time would you have to spend ?? I see a lot of dogs on the back transport heeling a lot differently than how they heel in OB, so how much time would you spend on this ?? I mean take away the thought of wether or not the dog would do the bitework and jumps and all that, and just think will the dog maintain that heeling position >??

Look at when the dogs in Sch are close to the helper. They do not prance, yet you are saying that is what you are training for. The helper is RIGHT THERE. No need for the dog to heel differently than in OB, yet they are different when heeling. Kinda contradictory.


----------



## Khoi Pham

Michelle Kehoe said:


> Koi the OB is not dragging due to any pressure or lack there of. The handler simply doesn't care or hasn't found a way to best reward the dog to get that cracked out OB. My dog is the EXACT same way. MUCH better OB/Focus/animation in the bitework because he gets his ultimate reward (a bite). A ball or tug will get him only so jacked up, for only so long, before he flattens out again. Honestly I could get that focus and as Jeff likes to call it, (pony prance) out of my dog more (if I gave a shit). But I don't and that is why I do PSA, not Schutzhund. I'm not into all that mind ****ing for a few minutes of laser precision OB. Unless training your dog is your life/career, you get the essentials down and go about enjoying your life, or like me, working myself to death for a paying job. Me, I want efficiant in the OB and impressive in the bitework. I have to pick my poison. All I care is that my dog can work, not giving a real shit if it's the prettiest out there. He's my first sport dog and I'm just glad I haven't screwed him 6 ways from Sunday.
> 
> For the practicle out there, why perfect what doesn't bring more points anyway?
> 
> Also remember the FR routine is WAAAAAY longer than a Sch routine


Ofcourse I knew that his OB lagging was not due to any pressure, it just that they don't care to train for speed and precision in French Ring, what I am saying is that if they take the time to train his OB so that it is in drive, with speed and happy attitude, they might have less time for training protection, so his protection work might not be as good, could affect his drive in protection depended on how they train OB, and so I agree with the other poster that said he might be the greatest GS in French Ring for 2009, but not the greatest GS on earth.
I'm suprised that since you are doing PSA and you don't care if your dog have attention heel on you?, a few points here and there could get you, this is a quote of the rules book, " Heeling shall be judged on teamwork, and how quickly, fluidly, and attentively the dog follows the commands of the handler. The dog should be tight without crowding the handler, be neither forged nor lagging. The dog should be straight in position during heeling and at halts. Some leeway is given for minor crabbing or forging if the dog is displaying attention while walking."
Good luck with your training, hope to meet you one day trialing.


----------



## susan tuck

susan tuck said:


> Just to clear something up, precise, driven and focused OB has nothing to do with the ball,or "pony prancing" Michelle.
> 
> The ball, tug, food, (whatever) may be used to motivate the dog into correct position & to teach the dog what you want in THE BEGINNING. After that he learns I MUST, which means he MUST work in drive, and be correct, whether he likes OB or not. This is where the demonstration of power under pressure comes in as far as the OB portion of schutzhund.
> 
> This is the problem with people who critisize schutzhund but who have not studied or trained in it. They tend to write off things they do not understand.
> 
> This is why I do not critisize sports I do not have a working knowledge in.


I hope I am not coming off as strident or rude. I am just trying to point out there is a reason behind what you see, it's not ABOUT flashy, it so happens the more driven and correct dog (in schutzhund OB) does LOOK flashy.


----------



## Khoi Pham

susan tuck said:


> Sorry Khoi, I did misread what you said. I am sure you would agree, most dogs competing at the upper echelons of schtuzhund have animated and precise OB because they understand the pressure of "I Must", whether they like OB or not is immaterial.


Yes I agree that most dogs competing at the upper level understand I must , but there are a few that understand I must but with very happy attitude doing it too.


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: Ofcourse I knew that his OB lagging was not due to any pressure, it just that they don't care to train for speed and precision in French Ring, what I am saying is that if they take the time to train his OB so that it is in drive, with speed and happy attitude, they might have less time for training protection, so his protection work might not be as good, could affect his drive in protection depended on how they train OB, and so I agree with the other poster that said he might be the greatest GS in French Ring for 2009, but not the greatest GS on earth.

Lets start with lagging. How is his ob "lagging" ?? How is it not precise ?? and the last bit of that is less time for training in protection. Want to explain any of your off base comments ??

So you think that somehow, and this is the big one, that by making the dog "happy" with all this "pressure" that he will melt in the bitework. THAT is the big thing that I find makes you a goof.

This is by far the best GSD on the planet. He has proved it, and all you have done is critique ( and quite badly, as you do not know what you are talking about) a performance that you have not yet acheived.

It is really interesting how much importance that you and others are putting on OB. I would not have thought that this dogs OB was incorrect or lagging. So that is interesting to see. It tells me more about what your sport has acheived in the way it has people thinking than I could have believed.

Your sport has no call off. It NEVER calls the dog away from the helper, it never requires the dog to maintain close proximity of a moving helper alone, and yet you are comparing the obedience.

You should all feel shame, as it is you that is destroying the breed by not having the ability to see the difference in this dogs OB is strictly training. It has NOTHING at all to do with the dog.

THis is why Sch is ****ed and is an abomination. Feel shame, as you deserve to.


----------



## Khoi Pham

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: Ofcourse I knew that his OB lagging was not due to any pressure, it just that they don't care to train for speed and precision in French Ring, what I am saying is that if they take the time to train his OB so that it is in drive, with speed and happy attitude, they might have less time for training protection, so his protection work might not be as good, could affect his drive in protection depended on how they train OB, and so I agree with the other poster that said he might be the greatest GS in French Ring for 2009, but not the greatest GS on earth.
> 
> Lets start with lagging. How is his ob "lagging" ?? How is it not precise ?? and the last bit of that is less time for training in protection. Want to explain any of your off base comments ??
> 
> So you think that somehow, and this is the big one, that by making the dog "happy" with all this "pressure" that he will melt in the bitework. THAT is the big thing that I find makes you a goof.
> 
> This is by far the best GSD on the planet. He has proved it, and all you have done is critique ( and quite badly, as you do not know what you are talking about) a performance that you have not yet acheived.
> 
> It is really interesting how much importance that you and others are putting on OB. I would not have thought that this dogs OB was incorrect or lagging. So that is interesting to see. It tells me more about what your sport has acheived in the way it has people thinking than I could have believed.
> 
> Your sport has no call off. It NEVER calls the dog away from the helper, it never requires the dog to maintain close proximity of a moving helper alone, and yet you are comparing the obedience.
> 
> You should all feel shame, as it is you that is destroying the breed by not having the ability to see the difference in this dogs OB is strictly training. It has NOTHING at all to do with the dog.
> 
> THis is why Sch is ****ed and is an abomination. Feel shame, as you deserve to.


I do have some free time today so I will get back into it with you (-:
If the same dog and you try to teach him to go out full speed and retrieve that kong and running back full speed, this alone will probably take them back 2 months to train, it will take away their training time for protection work, so his protection might suffer.
As for as precise, if you want to see precise, go here and click on the 2nd video.
http://www.malinoispuppies.com/malinois_django.html
for Shutzhund OB or here for PSA OB
http://www.k9workingdogs.org/psa1-obedience-routine
Click on the last video.
I don't know if you can read or not but for the last time my sport of choice is PSA and it has call off at level 2, rear transport at level 1, recall away from the decoy at level 1, recall away from decoy and defend handler from another decoy, you can go here and read the rules yourself and stop BS about something you don't know.
http://www.psak9.org/psaone.htm
As for Shutzhund, they have mandotary call away from the helper at level 2 in the bark&hold, and so here again, you don't know what you are talking about.

I have nothing to be a shame of, I don't breed dogs to sell, I'm not destroying the breed, it is those that breed for shows and looks and not temperament and working ability that is destroying the breed, not me, I actually protecting my breed of choice, people ask me all the time what kind of dog is that, (my Mal) I always said that he is a mix, the less pet people knows about Mal the better in my opinion, so once again you try to blame me for something I have nothing to do with, it is you that are full of it, not me.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: If the same dog and you try to teach him to go out full speed and retrieve that kong and running back full speed, this alone will probably take them back 2 months to train, it will take away their training time for protection work, so his protection might suffer.

Let's look at the obvious flaw here in this. Ring does not require it, only you seem to. The dog got second place in a Mal dominated sport, and it was a beautiful routine. Soooooooooo, WHY would he do that ??

Quote: As for as precise, if you want to see precise, go here and click on the 2nd video.

How well does this breeders dogs do in ring sport ?? Consider his focus is on Sch. Not very well. I guess the focus being on OB has been detrimental to the bite work. I do not see a lot of them in ringsports. And before anyone flips the **** out, the money is in Sch, so lets face it, you got to eat and pay bills. His dogs do not fare well in ring.

Quote: As for Shutzhund, they have mandotary call away from the helper at level 2 in the bark&hold, and so here again, you don't know what you are talking about.

I do not consider that a call off at all. Once again, you do not know what the heck I am talking about. The dog is static and is not running for a bite on a moving decoy. That arguement is pretty sad.

Quote: I don't know if you can read or not

No, can't read. Nice try though, I have once again, without the ability to read made your arguements look stupid.

Quote: I have nothing to be a shame of, I don't breed dogs to sell, I'm not destroying the breed, it is those that breed for shows and looks and not temperament and working ability that is destroying the breed, not me, I actually protecting my breed of choice, people ask me all the time what kind of dog is that, (my Mal) I always said that he is a mix, the less pet people knows about Mal the better in my opinion, so once again you try to blame me for something I have nothing to do with, it is you that are full of it, not me.

Precious, try not to take it so seriously. Although I do thank you for not breeding, at least you have one thing figured out.


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## susan tuck

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: This is where the demonstration of power under pressure comes in as far as the OB portion of schutzhund.
> 
> WHAT POWER ??
> 
> All you are doing different is shaping the prancing pony. I really doubt that there was less pressure at some point in that dogs life. There is no POWER in OB, just a different shaped behavior.
> 
> How long could your dog maintain that if you were doing a ring 3 routine ?? How much time would you have to spend ?? I see a lot of dogs on the back transport heeling a lot differently than how they heel in OB, so how much time would you spend on this ?? I mean take away the thought of wether or not the dog would do the bitework and jumps and all that, and just think will the dog maintain that heeling position >??
> 
> Look at when the dogs in Sch are close to the helper. They do not prance, yet you are saying that is what you are training for. The helper is RIGHT THERE. No need for the dog to heel differently than in OB, yet they are different when heeling. Kinda contradictory.


I teach using rewards, but then I train with pressure, Jeff. My dog learns I MUST. The dog is precise and correct NOT because he thinks he is going to get a ball or a cookie at this stage of the game, I assure you. I NEVER said dogs in Ring Sport SHOULD heel as they do in schutzhund sport, in fact I agreed that it is the secondary obedience that is more important and displays real control. 

It's really not a prance either. It has to do with training in drive, the position of the head (high & slightly turned), combined with the momentum of the hind legs that causes the front legs to look more animated, that's all. During 2ndary ob, the dog's head is not up and it is straight, so the front legs don't come up. 

ALL I'm saying is for all the legitimate faults you may find in schutzhund this is not only not one of them, it is not even close to one of them. AND if you look, even waaaaaaay back in the day, dogs in drive, trained to heel in drive, moved very close to the way they do now.


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## Michelle Reusser

I still don't see the point and may never, why a dog should look at the handlers face during OB. You can't argue that has become a HUGE focus in the past 10 or so years. It's more about form than function anymore. 

Dunno Sue, I have yet to force my dog into anything he hasn't made up his own mind to do. Yes my dog has pretty damn good focus and intensity, not because I make him stare lovingly into my eyes but because he has been taught, a reward will come for it eventually. We "wait" for focus. I'll stand still all day out on the field and not budge, if he doesn't look up. No ammount of cranking or physical pressure brings it on. As soon as he looks up...boom we move. The faster he looks up, the sooner he gets his reward. I like to call it self motivating. He's a self serving prick anyway, so it works well on him.

Sure you can correct the delay or lack of behaviour with a pinch or E but that will all fall away as soon as your trialing without those tools.


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## susan tuck

Michelle Kehoe said:


> I still don't see the point and may never, why a dog should look at the handlers face during OB. You can't argue that has become a HUGE focus in the past 10 or so years. It's more about form than function anymore.
> 
> Dunno Sue, I have yet to force my dog into anything he hasn't made up his own mind to do. Yes my dog has pretty damn good focus and intensity, not because I make him stare lovingly into my eyes but because he has been taught, a reward will come for it eventually. We "wait" for focus. I'll stand still all day out on the field and not budge, if he doesn't look up. No ammount of cranking or physical pressure brings it on. As soon as he looks up...boom we move. The faster he looks up, the sooner he gets his reward. I like to call it self motivating. He's a self serving prick anyway, so it works well on him.
> 
> Sure you can correct the delay or lack of behaviour with a pinch or E but that will all fall away as soon as your trialing without those tools.


Different dogs, different trainers, different methods, or combinations thereof. As I am sure you know, there are many ways to the top of the mountain, and not every method works with every dog. As far as cranking not working on your dog, it's not about cranking it's about well timed and correct corrections. I have seen MANY hard dogs that will ignore poorly timed or bad corrections, but NONE that won't respond if the correction is done right. I'm not sure I am understanding your last sentence, so please give me an example of what you are talking about, a specific exercize or something to illustrate your point.


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## Geoff Empey

Michelle Kehoe said:


> I still don't see the point and may never, why a dog should look at the handlers face during OB. You can't argue that has become a HUGE focus in the past 10 or so years. It's more about form than function anymore.


Well I train Ringsport as some of you know. I actually have been asking some of my SchH friends on how to clean up my dogs heeling with both the on leash and muzzle exercise. :-\"

As with both exercises I consistently have been loosing points on turns by her lagging or forging. Either because she is looking elsewhere whether it be looking for a decoy to bite or something interesting in the stands I kept loosing points that should be gimme points. 

So there is some function to having a dog at least pay attention to the handler during a heeling exercise. Face it both exercises are worth 12 points and 12 points is 12 points. Throw it away if you want, though I'm not going to give up those points.

I'm not looking for a fancy pants prancer just the dog to get more in tune to what the damned exercise is. So if it means the dog looking at my face wondering when the next reward is coming so be it. Some things do have merit even if you don't like it, which I poo pooed as well the 'goofy fancy prance' myself. 

But I tell you training for it has made her position in both leash and muzzle exercise 110% better and we only lost 1/2 a point for both exercises in our last trial. So we must be doing something right even if it is a pseudo SchH heel in Ringsport. 

Hey I'll even admit to looking for eye contact before sending her on her attacks during training. Sure I send her on the horn during trials but she is not going to break the line on me and get a big fat ZERO for the exercise now either. 

So what is it? Form or Function ?? :-k


----------



## Mike Scheiber

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: This is where the demonstration of power under pressure comes in as far as the OB portion of schutzhund.
> 
> WHAT POWER ??
> 
> All you are doing different is shaping the prancing pony. I really doubt that there was less pressure at some point in that dogs life. There is no POWER in OB, just a different shaped behavior.
> 
> How long could your dog maintain that if you were doing a ring 3 routine ?? How much time would you have to spend ?? I see a lot of dogs on the back transport heeling a lot differently than how they heel in OB, so how much time would you spend on this ?? I mean take away the thought of wether or not the dog would do the bitework and jumps and all that, and just think will the dog maintain that heeling position >??
> 
> Look at when the dogs in Sch are close to the helper. They do not prance, yet you are saying that is what you are training for. The helper is RIGHT THERE. No need for the dog to heel differently than in OB, yet they are different when heeling. Kinda contradictory.


Prolly different than what you are referring to but maybe not.
This dog is what I would call power in obedience no mamby pamby shit to move this dog.


----------



## susan tuck

Mike Scheiber said:


> Prolly different than what you are referring to but maybe not.
> This dog is what I would call power in obedience no mamby pamby shit to move this dog.


I agree. 

Also I believe no matter what manner his handler wanted him to heel, it would be no problem for this dog and of no consequence. He is simply one hellofa dog.


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## Timothy Stacy

So ....is it Ring sport in general, the dog, or the training that lacks a sense of urgency?
Not just this dog but many other videos of dogs I see in French Ring...so it's not the dog.
Why is there no emphasis on speed in French Ring?
Thanks for posting Jeff and I do like the dog.


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## Michelle Reusser

Geoff, you want enough form to get full function. Paying attention and correct position are a far cry from the pony prance. It is quite possible to have the first 2 without the pony dance. It's cool to see a dog do the full routine without moving it's head, I guess. I just wonder how the hell they can see where they are going and not bump the handler or whatever. If somebody wants to spend hours and hours perfecting that, go ahead. I'm not saying it's wrong, just a waste of time to me as it's not a nec function. The dog in question had good position and was paying full attention to his handler, he just wasn't neurotic about it, he was relaxed and heeling, sitting, downing jumping. Not amped up. How is that incorrect? Like Jeff says, he did it when asked. Why is lightening fast more correct or better?

I like a relaxed confident dog. They can't all be crackheads.



Geoff Empey said:


> Well I train Ringsport as some of you know. I actually have been asking some of my SchH friends on how to clean up my dogs heeling with both the on leash and muzzle exercise. :-\"
> 
> As with both exercises I consistently have been loosing points on turns by her lagging or forging. Either because she is looking elsewhere whether it be looking for a decoy to bite or something interesting in the stands I kept loosing points that should be gimme points.
> 
> So there is some function to having a dog at least pay attention to the handler during a heeling exercise. Face it both exercises are worth 12 points and 12 points is 12 points. Throw it away if you want, though I'm not going to give up those points.
> 
> I'm not looking for a fancy pants prancer just the dog to get more in tune to what the damned exercise is. So if it means the dog looking at my face wondering when the next reward is coming so be it. Some things do have merit even if you don't like it, which I poo pooed as well the 'goofy fancy prance' myself.
> 
> But I tell you training for it has made her position in both leash and muzzle exercise 110% better and we only lost 1/2 a point for both exercises in our last trial. So we must be doing something right even if it is a pseudo SchH heel in Ringsport.
> 
> Hey I'll even admit to looking for eye contact before sending her on her attacks during training. Sure I send her on the horn during trials but she is not going to break the line on me and get a big fat ZERO for the exercise now either.
> 
> So what is it? Form or Function ?? :-k


----------



## Geoff Empey

Timothy Stacy said:


> So ....is it Ring sport in general, the dog, or the training that lacks a sense of urgency?
> Not just this dog but many other videos of dogs I see in French Ring...so it's not the dog.
> Why is there no emphasis on speed in French Ring?
> Thanks for posting Jeff and I do like the dog.


What do you mean by 'speed' in ring? My dog hits the decoy at 35kmh + is that slow? :-k


----------



## Gillian Schuler

susan tuck said:


> AND there departs the newer kinder gentler Jeff.....
> 
> 1. Why yes I am, in fact my cars plate's are: SCHJNKY
> 
> 2. It is well understood that in your opinion schutzhund is shit, and you are certainly entitled to your learned opinion. I will be the first one to raise my hand agree that there are areas that should be improved (in my opinion, not fact), but to say it has been proven to be shit is nonsense.
> 
> 3. I agree the comments about the slow sits and other aspects of the OB routine are COMPLETELY immaterial and have nothing to do with the greatness of this dog, since that is only a matter of training and sport styles.
> 
> 4. I would say he is arguably one of the finest GSDs in the world today, and I am VERY grateful to Jeff for posting this and other videos of GSDs who have competed at the upper echelons of grip sports other than schutzhund, it is inspiring and rarely do we get to see dogs like this in person.
> 
> AND NOW FOR MY BEST TRICK: I WILL MAKE MY SELF APPEAR EVEN STUPIDERER THAN USUAL WITH THE FOLLOWING QUESTION:
> WTF IS OG? ALL I CAN THINK OF IS 'OLD GANGSTA' AND I AM PRETTY SURE I AM WRONG HERE.


----------



## Gillian Schuler

susan tuck said:


> AND there departs the newer kinder gentler Jeff.....
> 
> 1. Why yes I am, in fact my cars plate's are: SCHJNKY
> 
> 2. It is well understood that in your opinion schutzhund is shit, and you are certainly entitled to your learned opinion. I will be the first one to raise my hand agree that there are areas that should be improved (in my opinion, not fact), but to say it has been proven to be shit is nonsense.
> 
> 3. I agree the comments about the slow sits and other aspects of the OB routine are COMPLETELY immaterial and have nothing to do with the greatness of this dog, since that is only a matter of training and sport styles.
> 
> 4. I would say he is arguably one of the finest GSDs in the world today, and I am VERY grateful to Jeff for posting this and other videos of GSDs who have competed at the upper echelons of grip sports other than schutzhund, it is inspiring and rarely do we get to see dogs like this in person.
> 
> AND NOW FOR MY BEST TRICK: I WILL MAKE MY SELF APPEAR EVEN STUPIDERER THAN USUAL WITH THE FOLLOWING QUESTION:
> 
> *WTF IS OG? ALL I CAN THINK OF IS 'OLD GANGSTA' AND I AM PRETTY SURE I AM WRONG HERE.*


I've not watched the video yet but I don't have to reply - Jeff won't post a dog that is not good, if not the best SD on the planet - Susan, you've done it for me!

WTF is OG


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## Connie Sutherland

Connie Sutherland said:


> Object guard





Connie Sutherland said:


> I answered you, Sue .... Object guard.




Object guard.

:lol:


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## Gillian Schuler

Quote Koi:

the more OB and control you put on the dog, the weaker his bitework will be or his drive for bitework is less,

Unquote

Now where did you get that from????


----------



## Gillian Schuler

susan tuck said:


> Just to clear something up, precise, driven and focused OB has nothing to do with the ball,or "pony prancing" Michelle.
> 
> The ball, tug, food, (whatever) may be used to motivate the dog into correct position & to teach the dog what you want in THE BEGINNING. After that he learns I MUST, which means he MUST work in drive, and be correct, whether he likes OB or not. This is where the demonstration of power under pressure comes in as far as the OB portion of schutzhund.
> 
> This is the problem with people who critisize schutzhund but who have not studied or trained in it. They tend to write off things they do not understand.
> 
> This is why I do not critisize sports I do not have a working knowledge in.


What you mean is they know b-----r all about it!!!!!!!


----------



## Gillian Schuler

Khoi Pham said:


> Yes I agree that most dogs competing at the upper level understand I must , but there are a few that understand I must but with very happy attitude doing it too.


As far as I've heard and seen, precision in Schutzhund OB is everything. Show me the judge that can determine between "happy precise OB and precise OB!!!

Interested.


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## Khoi Pham

Gillian Schuler said:


> Quote Koi:
> 
> the more OB and control you put on the dog, the weaker his bitework will be or his drive for bitework is less,
> 
> Unquote
> 
> Now where did you get that from????


From years of training, and also from Helmut Raiser, and if you watch the video, you will see that in the object guard, do see the the dog just take a nip or very soft bite when the decoy is sneaking in trying to steal the object slowly? now why is the dog not biting him with the same intensity as in a face attack or handler defense? because the control on the dog to stay with the object guard is so great that it lower his drive to go to town on the decoy, more control = less drive.


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## Connie Sutherland

Khoi Pham said:


> ..... more control = less drive.



Is that like "better steering and brakes = less HP" ? :lol:


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## Jeff Oehlsen

I guess you have not watched the other videos I posted of this dog. He bites just fine and with good intensity.

Where are these nips and "soft" bites you are talking about ?? If you were watching the other videos, you would have noticed that this dog was taught to target mid shin.

The decoy took that away by kneeling, and trying to put the dog on the arm. Kinda like what happened to Ivan years back when the dickweed helper was waving the schlagstock in FRONT of the sleeve, and gave poor presentation on the back transport.

Naughty in Sch, not naughty in ring. Now lets look at the soft bite that I "think" you are talking about. The suit was stretched tight on the decoys leg, and unlike the mouth shaped sleeve, there was nothing to bite, but the dog took it, and pulled and then got more. NOT so soft I guess, now is it ??

The whole point of the object guard, and the rest of the bite work exercises in ring is to take as many points as you can. Stealing the basket is the BIG PRIZE, but not likely to work with this dog, so the decoy was using his head with this work. AND very nice work it was on his AND the dogs part.

So, yeah, bite me. Better to read up, than to....................... #-o


----------



## Khoi Pham

Connie Sutherland said:


> Is that like "better steering and brakes = less HP" ? :lol:


We are talking about training dogs, not car. Can you explain to me why his bite intensity is not the same as in other exercise? The dog understand clearly that he can bite when the decoy is trying to steal the object or close enough to it, but why is his bite not the same as the other scenarios?


----------



## Michelle Reusser

Khoi Pham said:


> We are talking about training dogs, not car. Can you explain to me why his bite intensity is not the same as in other exercise? The dog understand clearly that he can bite when the decoy is trying to steal the object or close enough to it, but why is his bite not the same as the other scenarios?


 
Because biting is only a small part of the excersize and the dog "gets" that. He is to protect the basket at all costs and that cost is holding himself back and showing control in this excersize. This is what is MOST impressive. Most dogs screw up in the OG because they finally snap and take a run at the decoy, leaving the basket unprotected. The dog shows he has intensity in the bitework at other areas but in the OG he also shows his brilliance and ability to reign that in to meet his objective. My dog sure as shit couldn't pass up a bite, to guard a damn basket.


----------



## Connie Sutherland

The ability to control something doesn't mean the something is lessened. It just means that it is controlled. That was all I meant in the car analogy.


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## Khoi Pham

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I guess you have not watched the other videos I posted of this dog. He bites just fine and with good intensity.
> 
> Where are these nips and "soft" bites you are talking about ?? If you were watching the other videos, you would have noticed that this dog was taught to target mid shin.
> 
> The decoy took that away by kneeling, and trying to put the dog on the arm. Kinda like what happened to Ivan years back when the dickweed helper was waving the schlagstock in FRONT of the sleeve, and gave poor presentation on the back transport.
> 
> Naughty in Sch, not naughty in ring. Now lets look at the soft bite that I "think" you are talking about. The suit was stretched tight on the decoys leg, and unlike the mouth shaped sleeve, there was nothing to bite, but the dog took it, and pulled and then got more. NOT so soft I guess, now is it ??
> 
> The whole point of the object guard, and the rest of the bite work exercises in ring is to take as many points as you can. Stealing the basket is the BIG PRIZE, but not likely to work with this dog, so the decoy was using his head with this work. AND very nice work it was on his AND the dogs part.
> 
> So, yeah, bite me. Better to read up, than to....................... #-o


The bite a 22:53 is a soft bite, the dog is thinking about his training, whether he should bite or let go, he IS thinking about it and Controlling himself, now if he doesn't remember his training or able to control himself, his bite would have been much more than what you see at 22:53.
BTW I reread some of the thread and what is this BS about the dog looking away to draw the decoy in for a bite during the object guard? the dog see no threat because the decoy is still far away and so it is not a concern to him at that moment to keep his eyes on the decoy, now why don't the dog look away when the decoy is closer or when the decoy start to move around? Yeah you got alot of following on this board, sometime you are right but most of the time I think you are full of it and the believe you too.


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## susan tuck

I have a different impression of the bite at 22.53: The dog grips with what purchase he can and then yanks in like 3 times. When the decoy freezes, he lets go.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

So far every one of your arguements have been smashed with a rock. First off, where does it say that a dog has to bite hard ?? I left that one open, as I know you are gonna think that biting hard is the end all be all. However, many many dogs don't bite for shit. Just how it is.

I got back from training a little while ago, and am to tired to play make Khoi look silly right now.

Let me help you out as far as a following, I could give a ****. I say this is the best GSD on the planet, and you have yet to come up with a valid point why he is not. Hell goofball, just post one that you think is better. Be a lot less boring than this crap.


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## susan tuck

Jeff: I don't know if you already said somewhere, but in Ring is each exercize given a point value and/or critique and if so, do you know how many points this dog was awarded (or how many the decoy was successful in taking away) for OG and what the critique was at this trial?


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## Khoi Pham

susan tuck said:


> I have a different impression of the bite at 22.53: The dog grips with what purchase he can and then yanks in like 3 times. When the decoy freezes, he lets go.


From 22:53 and on, the dog bite the first time and then pulled, then after that he regrip 5 times, each regrip is soft with no commitment.


----------



## Timothy Stacy

Geoff Empey said:


> What do you mean by 'speed' in ring? My dog hits the decoy at 35kmh + is that slow? :-k


No I didn't mean it like that. I meant more in the aspects of the meandering after the jumps, the recalls, and the retrieves. How do they judge this?


----------



## Khoi Pham

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> So far every one of your arguements have been smashed with a rock. First off, where does it say that a dog has to bite hard ?? I left that one open, as I know you are gonna think that biting hard is the end all be all. However, many many dogs don't bite for shit. Just how it is.
> 
> I got back from training a little while ago, and am to tired to play make Khoi look silly right now.
> 
> Let me help you out as far as a following, I could give a ****. I say this is the best GSD on the planet, and you have yet to come up with a valid point why he is not. Hell goofball, just post one that you think is better. Be a lot less boring than this crap.


Yeah I know in ring the dog don't have to bite hard, I was taking about the different intensity between the bite at 22:53 because of control and other bite scenario, you can't make a point on the subject and so you keep steering to something else, heh heh poor Jeff.


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## susan tuck

Khoi Pham said:


> Yeah you got alot of following on this board


Anyone else get a hardy guffaw besides me when they read this?


----------



## Khoi Pham

None of you can explain why the intensity of the bite at 22:53 is not the same as other bite scenario except for Jeff saying now that dog don't have to bite hard in ring, Susan I don't know if we are watching the same video or not, the dog bite the first time, pulled then regrip 5 times, did the dog do that during the face attacked or escort...? heck no, now why is that?


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## Tim Bartlett

Please stop with all the overanalyzing. It's becoming ridiculous to even read. This is a good example of a very nice GS performing at the highest level in French Ring. Period.


----------



## Khoi Pham

Tim Bartlett said:


> Please stop with all the overanalyzing. It's becoming ridiculous to even read. This is a good example of a very nice GS performing at the highest level in French Ring. Period.


Ok I will stop, and yes I agree that it is a very nice GS doing FR at the highest level, it took alot of great training to get him there, but he ain't the greatest GS on earth, I was just having a little fun with Jeff with my free time. (-:


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## Connie Sutherland

susan tuck said:


> Anyone else get a hardy guffaw besides me when they read this?




Oh yes. I imagine Jeff did! :lol:


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## susan tuck

Oh the irony..........or the agony...........or the ecstasy...........:-\"


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## Michelle Reusser

susan tuck said:


> Oh the irony..........or the agony...........or the ecstasy...........:-\"


Don't forget...the barf bag.


----------



## susan tuck

Michelle Kehoe said:


> Don't forget...the barf bag.


Why whatever can you mean??? We all fall all over ourselves trying to curry favor with Jeff big time, don't we? Khoi, I am not being disrespectful, but once you have spent a bit of time here, I'm sure you will understand why your statement was pretty.


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## Khoi Pham

I did not mentioned any names or anybody as far as Jeff's disciples, why do you girls are attacking me? LOL I have enough. LOL.


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## susan tuck

No it's not that, it's....wellll....it's just that....welll...........nobody really... likes Jeff vey much most of the time..........:lol: at least not until this new kinder gentler guy hijacked his computer, but weill it looks like the old Jeff is back!


----------



## Christopher Jones

Tim Bartlett said:


> Please stop with all the overanalyzing. It's becoming ridiculous to even read. This is a good example of a very nice GS performing at the highest level in French Ring. Period.


Amen. I guess the best GSD on the plant thing could be challanged, but I guess Jeff was asking for someone to put a video up of other GSD's that people would consider for the "Best" award. Maybe the intention of Jeff was to put it out as a lure for people to put up some cool GSD vids?
But anyways, interesting dog, great decoy and great sport.


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## susan tuck

Oh, some other great living GSDs: Olex; Tyson; and Falk come to mind, to name a few. You can find their videos on U Tube. I don't think any one is "best" or maybe it's anyone of them can be "best" on any given day, maybe.

Edited: Zidane, Javir are pretty nice too!


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## Connie Sutherland

Christopher Jones said:


> .... I guess Jeff was asking for someone to put a video up of other GSD's that people would consider for the "Best" award...


Wouldn't that be a great idea!?

Much more fun and much more instructive than a zillion words.


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## Mike Scheiber

susan tuck said:


> Anyone else get a hardy guffaw besides me when they read this?


"guffaw" I lernt a new word today.


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## susan tuck

I mean there are some REALLY super dogs out there right now. Wallace Payne and his great dog Pedro ( Merlin Conneforde) comes to mind: (http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/370298.html)

Look at any of his Part C Videos. This one is from when he got 98 points at the worlds:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XgNEQ5t7CNY

And here is his 99 point OFF lead track where he won the 2007 North American FH Championship:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YV7retd4WQU

Too hard to pick just one dog as the greatest.


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## Connie Sutherland

Great start, Sue!

Already three to watch. 




susan tuck said:


> I mean there are some REALLY super dogs out there right now. Wallace Payne and his great dog Pedro ( Merlin Conneforde) comes to mind: (http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/370298.html)
> 
> Look at any of his Part C Videos. This one is from when he got 98 points at the worlds:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XgNEQ5t7CNY
> 
> And here is his 99 point OFF lead track where he won the 2007 North American FH Championship:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YV7retd4WQU
> 
> Too hard to pick just one dog as the greatest.


----------



## susan tuck

susan tuck said:


> Look at any of his Part C Videos. This one is from when he got 98 points at the worlds:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XgNEQ5t7CNY


Oh bother, I don't know why the link doesn't work. If you go to U Tube, enter Wallace Payne 98 points and it will bring it up OR:

http://www.vombanholz.be/
CLICK ON MOVIE ARCHIVES
CLICK ON CHAMPIONSHIPS & TRIALS 
SCROLL DOWN TO 2006 WUSV
CLICK ON WALLACE PAYNE


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## Connie Sutherland

Mike Scheiber said:


> "guffaw" I lernt a new word today.



_"Chortle," _too. :lol:

A following would be curse to Jeff; it would mean that he had wasted a lot of energy spent on discouraging such a thing. :lol:


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## susan tuck

http://www.vombanholz.be/

click on German stud GSDs take a look at Falk, Tyson & Olex videos

then go back & click on Belgian GSDs and take a look at Tom Leefdahlhof (of course some of might have to write Tom off because of the dreaded "pony prancing" pfffft!!!! It's called working in D-R-I-V-E.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

No, it is called G-A-Y.

Tim, until you actually post something, you don't get to tell us how to critique. Just read the thing, and be glad that some of us are interesting. 

Khoi, your arguements are like a third grader. You are already saying "I know you are, I know you are" Plus, the other thing is that, and I hate to tell you this, because I am pretty sure you are clueless, I have been making you look like a dipshit for quite a few pages, and you think that you are "having fun" ????

You need to go back and have someone translate, as I have been kicking the shit out of your ideas on dog training.

Susan, thanks for at least posting some videos. No, none of those dogs come close. However, I encourage people to keep trying.


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## susan tuck

Okay, okay, let's agree to disagree on heeling, it's no biggie. 8)


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## Mike Scheiber

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> No, it is called G-A-Y.
> 
> Tim, until you actually post something, you don't get to tell us how to critique. Just read the thing, and be glad that some of us are interesting.
> 
> Khoi, your arguements are like a third grader. You are already saying "I know you are, I know you are" Plus, the other thing is that, and I hate to tell you this, because I am pretty sure you are clueless, I have been making you look like a dipshit for quite a few pages, and you think that you are "having fun" ????
> 
> You need to go back and have someone translate, as I have been kicking the shit out of your ideas on dog training.
> 
> Susan, thanks for at least posting some videos. No, none of those dogs come close. However, I encourage people to keep trying.


I will post video of my dog Jett when he is fully tuned and presentable he should have no trouble taking the title from the boat anchor your pushing as the greatest GSD on the planet.


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## michael carroll

Best GSD on the planet.Must be sport dog only contenders.I,m fairly certain that there are any number of Military working gsd's that would blow him out of the water,even in a real life OG Just my opinion


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## susan tuck

michael carroll said:


> Best GSD on the planet.Must be sport dog only contenders.I,m fairly certain that there are any number of Military working gsd's that would blow him out of the water,even in a real life OG Just my opinion


Got any videos by any chance?


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## Kyle Sprag

michael carroll said:


> Best GSD on the planet.Must be sport dog only contenders.I,m fairly certain that there are any number of Military working gsd's that would blow him out of the water,even in a real life OG Just my opinion


 
What is a "real life OG" ? #-o


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## Michelle Reusser

LMAO this thread gets stupider by the post. Good shit when I'm bored!


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## Gillian Schuler

Here's one to relieve your boredom:

http://video.aol.de/video-detail/bsp-2008-worker-zum-jrgenshof-schutzdienst/2308603153

He may not be the best on the planet, but let's face it, no video of IPO Schutzdienst is going to top Ulko's efforts. No IPO Schutzdienst can show the dog in all the facets that are shown in French Ring.
Even the French Ring policy of having an "excellent" before stepping up to the next class is excellent.
I'm too old to change but I can appreciate a good dog when I see one.

There are many very good dogs in IPO / SchH that could probably play quite a good part in French Ring but in Germany it's not allowed so we won't be seeing many. The good breeders test the dogs outside of the SchH trials and not all are just handling dogs that gain points in OB to win. A lot want "too much dog" and are willing to handle it.

It seems to be true that the top winners are buying dogs that are easy to train and thereby winning points. But, you have to live with them (at least most of us do) and who wants a pretty package. Winning is good but not long-lasting. Good dogs are.

BTW, Worker Jürgenshof is known as a good Stud. His first Körung stated "will not out" but the second one when he "outed" left him in for life.


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: Best GSD on the planet.Must be sport dog only contenders.I,m fairly certain that there are any number of Military working gsd's that would blow him out of the water,even in a real life OG Just my opinion

No ****ing way, not on any given Sunday, not in July, not with an apple pie. Get over the idea that the military working dogs are anything but middle of the road apples. 

Kinda like the idea that K9 cops are some sort of magical animal. Myth and bullshit. There are good trainers out there in both programs, but not the norm.

Sheiber, if your dog is not ready for Sch yet, maybe you should consider getting another dog. I am sure this dog has been a ring 3 for more than a couple of years now. Probably around 4 years. If it is taking that long to get a title, and to do it right, then something is going on. LOL


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## Al Curbow

Aren't most military dogs detection dogs?


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## Jeff Oehlsen

You mean aren't most military trainers clueless ??? LOL


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## Drew Peirce

It's a little different jeff, preparing a dog for war, than it is preparing one to do a bunch of circus tricks in a stadium full of froggies with their gay airhorns.


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## Geoff Empey

Kyle Sprag said:


> What is a "real life OG" ? #-o


I dunno .. maybe sitting in the back of the Humvee making the vehicle rock and hop when someone outside of the handler approaches the vehicle? 

Hey it could be resource guarding to like when Fifi guards her milk bone from the cat, poodles can be vicious out of control guarding bastids as well! 

Go Fifi! =D>


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: 
It's a little different jeff, preparing a dog for war, than it is preparing one to do a bunch of circus tricks in a stadium full of froggies with their gay airhorns.

Oh yes, their training credentials are immaculate. They hired my x girlfriend with almost no experience for their "war" dogs LOL

Get real. I was in the Marines and I can see that the grunts could use them, as long the dogs could show us a trip wire, or some shit like that, but other than that, the dog would pretty much be something to play with during down time.

I expect you will tell me how difficult, and what an amazing trainer you have to be to teach a dog to alert to human scent on a patrol. OOOOooooooo do tell us how "hard" that is.

Get real, this dog would smoke anything in our military right now. What is it that you think that these "war" dog are doing that is so mythical, and above average ??

Besides, do you even train dogs ?? Or are your dogs to "real" for training. LOL

Tell you what, you show me a video of your dog doing the circus trick called the object guard as well as this dog, and I will concede.


----------



## Geoff Empey

Drew Peirce said:


> It's a little different jeff, preparing a dog for war, than it is preparing one to do a bunch of circus tricks in a stadium full of froggies with their gay airhorns.


I find it interesting that some people still have this uninformed attitude about these dogs. Really it is not about what you say in your qoute. 

I'm not poo pooing MWDs or PSDs and the important life saving jobs that they do. But ... but we would be hard pressed to see a MWD or PSD out of the box do the so called circus tricks that you say that those exercises are. 

Another thing I'd like to add is why is every pedigree that I see of any sport dog there is no MWDs or PSDs in them? But the other way around in the PSD or MWD? 

You see with top level sport dogs, now that dogs are not used very much in traditional work (sheep tending, stock droving etc) that is where the better working gene pools now lie, is in sport. 

Looking at Ulko you are looking at the top of the so called cream of that GSD gene pool no doubt in my mind. In the coming years you will see the fruits from Ulko bring the GSD further into the 21st century.


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## michael carroll

Susan,no videos but plenty of info about these dogs on the internet.
Kyle,not an og in the general sense,but I think a dog that drags his wounded or inpaired handler to safety and guards him untill help arrives is pretty damn impressive.There are documented cases .
Jeff,i've stated on this board that I would like to learn to train a dog in schutzhund,never claimed to be a trainer of any impressive caliber.I joined this forum to try and learn something.I,m not downing any of the dog sports,there are great dogs in all venues,not just in each indiviuals chosen one.A good dog is a good dog period regardless of the sport.The way I see it a gsd enthusiast should be proud of any gsd that excells in anything.I don't know of anyone that is qualified to judge which gsd is the best on the planet and that includes you.I don't have to ask if your a trainer,you make it a point to let eveyone know that you are the master trainer.Any one that disagrees with what you say,automatically gets your first line of attack[DO YOU EVEN TRAIN A DOG] Why is it that your girlfriend who knows very little was hired to work training MWD's,and your still a bartender?
To all you other gsd owners and lovers,are you not proud of your breed for the service of these dogs in the defense of your country? Bash me and kick me around all you want,but remember this I am entitled to an opinion just like the rest of you,and just because you don't agree with what i say doesn't make either one of us wrong.I know I'm not always right,but I don't know anyone that is .DO YOU?


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## Kyle Sprag

"Kyle,not an og in the general sense,but I think a dog that drags his wounded or inpaired handler to safety and guards him untill help arrives is pretty damn impressive.There are documented cases ."


This is not something that is trained, it is a very rare case of something that may happen. In cases where the dog is "guarding" a handler how does the dog know the people approaching is "help"?

I would bet there are many more documented cases of a Dog being Shot because he would not let True Help near it's incapacitated handler. This IS a real concern.


----------



## susan tuck

Michael: I asked you for video for a very specific reason. This isn't about the venue, it's not about which sport is better or about whether military dogs or police dogs or sport dogs are better, it's about this one dog.

If you are going to argue that you know of a better or equal dog, then you need to provide specifics (name, video, something that points to the how and why you feel the dog is superior or equal to Ulko.


----------



## Connie Sutherland

Plus video is so much more interesting and fun than another zillion words.

Sue stepped up! I would _love_ to see more "best GSD (or whatever) currently on the planet" videos!


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: 
BTW, Worker Jürgenshof is known as a good Stud. His first Körung stated "will not out" but the second one when he "outed" left him in for life.

The dog looks like a bag of shit. Got any more videos?


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen

Micheal, there is always the possibility, that the handler went down, and the dog was simply trying to book it, and the handler still had the leash. LOL


----------



## susan tuck

Jeff learned to hurl insults from the best: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9V7zbWNznbs


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen

Did anyone think to go old school ?? 

http://www.vombanholz.be/

Rocky von Zinglegarten. : ) Probably screwed the spelling all to hell.


----------



## Connie Sutherland

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Micheal, there is always the possibility, that the handler went down, and the dog was simply trying to book it, and the handler still had the leash. LOL





susan tuck said:


> Jeff learned to hurl insults from the best: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9V7zbWNznbs



And such a good learner! :lol: :lol: :lol:


----------



## michael carroll

Yea your probably right, I'll let it die,It was just an opinion.


----------



## Mike Scheiber

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote:
> BTW, Worker Jürgenshof is known as a good Stud. His first Körung stated "will not out" but the second one when he "outed" left him in for life.
> 
> The dog looks like a bag of shit. Got any more videos?


Im with Jeff on the video what do you see that impresses you he missed the escape bite and tripped up the helper bites weren't full and had movement and of course no out.:-k
Of course there is the other side of what makes a great dog and that is what he produces. The little shows we/they put on are only part of the bigger picture.


----------



## Drew Peirce

So jeff I know you've seen vids of pike on the VB website, many consider him the greatest of all time, knowing the kind of dog you dig I would think you could only love pike.
And he produced some truly epic police dogs, I was blessed to have one.

I'm sure most members here have seen this vid but if you havent your really in for a GSD treat>



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ehGjpi4bV68


----------



## Drew Peirce

Another icon>

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B94e...artIndex=&startPage=1&feature=player_embedded


----------



## Bob Scott

I've always liked what I've heard about Pike but I have a hard time looking at a dog working with all the bling on it's neck and the pop, pop, pop from the handler and thinking "what a wonderful job it's doing".
Not a knock on Pike. Just an observation.


----------



## Drew Peirce

That wasnt the vid I was looking for, I'll try to find it, much less of that crap and more biting.


----------



## Michelle Reusser

Look up Lewis Malatesta for some old school. It's not flashy or pretty but the MFer went BSP 4 times and WUSV twice.

Also watch Timmy(V-BSP) and Xato von der Nachbarschaft (5xBSP), ugly ugly performances compared to todays standards but when you see them in a pedigree, you have to change your underwear.


----------



## Bob Scott

Michelle Kehoe said:


> Look up Lewis Malatesta for some old school. It's not flashy or pretty but the MFer went BSP 4 times and WUSV twice.
> 
> Also watch Timmy(V-BSP) and Xato von der Nachbarschaft (5xBSP), ugly ugly performances compared to todays standards but when you see them in a pedigree, you have to change your underwear.



Xato is the grandsire (fathers' side) of my older dog Thunder. The only video I've ever seen of him is the one on the Vombanholz site. Looks like a crazy mofo!


----------



## susan tuck

So if we are going to go back into the past, I nominate Asko v Joufne Keyleff, now THERE was a kick ass dog, probably could run rings (HA!) around that lil french sport ****er. :lol:


----------



## Mike Scheiber

Bob Scott said:


> I've always liked what I've heard about Pike but I have a hard time looking at a dog working with all the bling on it's neck and the pop, pop, pop from the handler and thinking "what a wonderful job it's doing".
> Not a knock on Pike. Just an observation.


Hell its a pinch and a fur saver and a tab minimal training equipment.
Lots of great dogs on Banholz I like Troll Korbelbach tough bastard


----------



## Bob Scott

Mike Scheiber said:


> Hell its a pinch and a fur saver and a tab minimal training equipment.



Never used anything besides a fursaver or a flat leather on my two GSDs. 
Guess they just ain't as powerful as the ones all dressed out. :grin::grin::wink:


----------



## Gillian Schuler

First off, Worker Jürgenshof's Schutzdienst didn't impress me - Michelle Kehoe said she was bored so that's why I put the video up.

OK, back to topic:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8175205308839130149

and a bitch:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qLh_IUcq5J4&hl=de


----------



## Jim Nash

I've been reading this for awhile and I thought I got Jeff's point . It is an awesome dog and that was beautiful to watch . If he got the chance to go that final step and do it for real(after all he hasn't done everything a GSD does , yet he's given the GSD title) it looks like he could very well have a shot at being the best on the planet . I know I would love to have that dog and see a whole lot more out there like him . 

But from seeing Jeff beat this to death I've descided to give my 2 cents . I enjoy Jeff's style , he gets to say things many of us want to . We couldn't all do this or this board would break down into anarchy . 

I think he usually speaks the hard truth people need to hear sometimes . He balances this board out . So I'm going to apologize ahead of time for stealing a little of his style in my closing line but I think this is the best way to get my thoughts out on this . As for the tone it may sound like I'm pissed but I'm not just a little irrated after seeing alot of GSD's take some very hard lumps and some dying doing their job . 

Calling that dog the best GSD on the planet is like calling a Recruit that kicked ass throughout all of his training , aceing everything and setting new records that may never be beat and calling him the " best Soldier on the planet " without him ever seeing battle . 

The skills he has been working on and learned so well haven't even been tested yet . Sure he's shown he has heart , strength and the ability to do it better then anyone else but he hasn't shown he can truely use those skills when the shit hits the fan and quite frankly he simply doesn't deserve that title when there are soldiers out the actually proving themselves and accomplishing something more with their training , then he has , no matter how less trained or skilled they are . 

That dog in the video is great and has the potential to be the best but what I saw doesn't hold a candle to the things I've seen our GSD's do for real and there are plenty of others out there doing it around the planet . We have had them stabbed , shot , held underwater and even after being fatally shot crawl after the badguy . Sorry no video just testimony from the slimebag himself when he described shooting and killing the K9's Handler and then the dog . 

That dog in the video showed plenty of heart and skill but his heart hasn't been tested completely yet . There's GSD's out there that have had the opprotunity to show all they've got and it is far more then what this GSD got to show in the video .

I'm not saying that PSD's are the best , many are poorly trained or just don't have what it takes to do the job . But there are always some that are put to the ultimate test (even the poorly trained or ones with boarderline skills) and come out gangbusters . They've simply gotten the chance to prove themselves to the fullest and passed the test . Most nowadays come from sport backround anyways . I'm speaking from my perspective as a PSD Handler . I'm sure you could include MWDs and PPDs in there also but I don't think I have the right to speak for them .

Again , great dog with the potential to be the greatest but he doesn't deserve the title you gave him and until he actually does F^#* him and the F^*@tard that gave him that title !


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## Gillian Schuler

I agree with what you say Jim about "earning" the title "Best GSD on the planet" but on the other hand I don't take all of Jeff's remarks for gospel. He has a lot of good info to impart but for him there doesn't seem to be anything between BoP and complete BS. 

Look at it as (to quote Gerry Grimwood) "the best ankle biting basket humper" we've seen to date.

He looks to be a great dog and I really enjoyed the video, so no flies on him!


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## michael carroll

Not looking for a fight so you guys tell me if I'm wrong can't most of the sport dogs in the past and present be traced back to border patrol dogs or dogs in some other military or police venue?


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## todd pavlus

Good post Jim. Why don't we just leave it at... It is the best ring sport Gsd on the planet.


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## Geoff Empey

michael carroll said:


> Not looking for a fight so you guys tell me if I'm wrong can't most of the sport dogs in the past and present be traced back to border patrol dogs or dogs in some other military or police venue?


Everybody seems to forget that they all were actually block headed farm dogs. That protected and moved livestock, property sentry, guard dog for the farmer. The border, military and police jobs came way after and the breeding stock was good ol' farm dogs.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: .I don't know of anyone that is qualified to judge which gsd is the best on the planet and that includes you.

THere are plenty of judges that I do not agree with. So what ?? Come up with a decent arguement, or stay out of it. Pretty easy don't you think ???


Quote: I don't have to ask if your a trainer,you make it a point to let eveyone know that you are the master trainer.

Find one ****ing thread buddy where I say that. Your perceptions are based on your personality, so remember that when you post. You tell me a lot more about who you are when you do post, so don't stop. : )


Quote: Why is it that your girlfriend who knows very little was hired to work training MWD's,and your still a bartender?

She is way better looking than I am, has slightly better people skills, and tried to get the job. Any time you think you can train a dog, or are even qualified to have an opinion, I will let you know. Until then, do the smart thing, and shut up and try and learn before you decide you have what it takes to argue dogs or training with me. I see that you have confessed your ignorance, so go out and train a dog with the things you are learning here. THEN maybe you get an opinion.

I fart in your general direction.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: So if we are going to go back into the past, I nominate Asko v Joufne Keyleff, now THERE was a kick ass dog, probably could run rings (HA!) around that lil french sport ****er. 

But that would not make him the best CURRENTLY on the planet. LOL

I hate that all we can do about the dogs from "the day" is theorize. It is fun though. I also liked the pike vid, but do not know if he produced any ring dogs. That lack of information on this side of the pond sucks.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Jim, I do understand what you are saying as well, but to sell a great dog to a ****ing police dept is just foolish. It is the black hole of dogdom, where the great, or possibly great, and the true warriors go, and we ( the rest of the planet) do not get to benefit from.

Your kick ass warrior has NO chance to show the world he is not a one off. That is why I have always called it the black hole. I never would sell a stud dog, or a possible stud dog, as breeding for the most part is not allowed.

It is a good resource wasted. 99.9% of the people out there who "claim" to need a pp dog will never ever need it, there goes another dog out of the gene pool, as it is difficult to see the over all quality of the dog.

I feel that most of the cops we have on this board that post regularly are among the 1% of them that have some good knowledge of dog training. Sure there are more, but I have trained with a lot of them that are lacking. MOST of the time, it is not their fault, some idiot came up with the idea that they have to be paid to train, and so that is a problem I have seen, and maybe that is not across the board.

The selectiffs are demanding, and the Championships are tough. The sport weeds out those unable to jump, a HUGE problem with the breed. Ring is a Mal sport, so that makes it even tougher. So take away the fact that this dog is not a police dog, and take away the fact that most police dogs are not trained in ring, and I will take my chances that Ulko is the greatest GSD on the planet. You have your "never been tested" and I have my " your dog may not be able to handle the pressure of the training. LOL

However, feel free to post video of your dogs competing in Police dog trials, I would like to see more of that. I think that you take away the leash from the handlers, and you will have better handlers out there.

So, again, if anyone has video of a dog that they believe is better than this dog, I am all for it. That is what makes it fun.

Pike produced some nice dogs, but the vid you posted makes him look kinda lame. All that drive capping, and.........................pretty basic work. Too bad we could not see him (Pike) work against "dirty" :lol: Dosta. Unfortunately, the whole targeting the middle of the forearm thing would work against him for a while. What I would want to see is how quickly this dog figured out the "deal"


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## susan tuck

Good choices, Gillian! Watching Aron Granit Rose on the long bite, he swings the helper instead of the other way around!


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## michael carroll

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: .I don't know of anyone that is qualified to judge which gsd is the best on the planet and that includes you.
> 
> THere are plenty of judges that I do not agree with. So what ?? Come up with a decent arguement, or stay out of it. Pretty easy don't you think ???
> 
> 
> Quote: I don't have to ask if your a trainer,you make it a point to let eveyone know that you are the master trainer.
> 
> Find one ****ing thread buddy where I say that. Your perceptions are based on your personality, so remember that when you post. You tell me a lot more about who you are when you do post, so don't stop. : )
> 
> 
> Quote: Why is it that your girlfriend who knows very little was hired to work training MWD's,and your still a bartender?
> 
> She is way better looking than I am, has slightly better people skills, and tried to get the job. Any time you think you can train a dog, or are even qualified to have an opinion, I will let you know. Until then, do the smart thing, and shut up and try and learn before you decide you have what it takes to argue dogs or training with me. I see that you have confessed your ignorance, so go out and train a dog with the things you are learning here. THEN maybe you get an opinion.
> 
> I fart in your general direction.


 Yes jeff thats fine.I understand exactly what your saying,but I'm not sure that you do.Any way I won't respond to your post or threads,I ask that you do the same for me.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

That is fine with me, what was I going to get out of it anyway ???

Matter of fact, why don't you just put me on ignore, as I don't want you reading anything I say. Why should I teach you anything ?? You could try Chicagoland, or Longwoods, or maybe Bandog banter. I think that is where your little sensitive self belongs.

Be sure to put me on ignore.


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## susan tuck

Is there an "object guard" in KNPV?


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## Mike Scheiber

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> That is fine with me, what was I going to get out of it anyway ???
> 
> Matter of fact, why don't you just put me on ignore, as I don't want you reading anything I say. Why should I teach you anything ?? You could try Chicagoland, or Longwoods, or maybe Bandog banter. I think that is where your little sensitive self belongs.
> 
> Be sure to put me on ignore.


The WDF has a bit of a day time soap opera flavor.:grin:
Off to go track


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## Gillian Schuler

susan tuck said:


> Good choices, Gillian! Watching Aron Granit Rose on the long bite, he swings the helper instead of the other way around!


Susan, the thing is, they're only choices and I know which dogs have proven good. I've never seen him work in real. I've seen one of his sons and I have a grandson of his that is similar but no video!

Hella Tasmanischen Teufel's daughter was in our training group and she was good. (note my careful choice of words!)

What I would like to see, or hear about, are dogs that people have seen in the flesh working and not just those that they've seen on video for a few minutes. No reflection on Ulko who made 2nd place if I understood rightly. But for me, it's a bit like saying I'd like a night out with Richard Gere but how do I know whether I'd be bored to death by his eulogies and then havie to pay for the fun! For me, he's a good actor but what's the whole bundle??

Maybe I'll start a new thread.


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## Gillian Schuler

I doubt whether Pike did any Ring if he stayed in Germany as the "Kampfunde" scene took care that this sport did not infest Germany, the connection I have yet to find out!!


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## Erik Berg

Who knows, maybe this ringdog would suck as a PP-dog or policedog, so who the best dog is obviously depends on what the dog is supposed to do. Maybe people should define what makes a GSD the best on the planet before you nominate one

If we put the tricks this dog has been trained to do at side, what makes the character of this ringdog so much better than many other GSD, is he tougher, bite harder, more courageous or more drive, or what is it exactly that makes him the best on the planet? Probably a bunch of dogs that are equal or better that haven´t been caught on tape. This is a nice GSD I think,
http://www.jabina.dk/hanner/uno/uno_gr_c.wmv


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## susan tuck

Manus Tiekerhook, (another Nick granson and littermate to Max) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JlqcxcnPJHI but I don't know if he is as clear as Ulko, and of course, there is no OG, so.............


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## susan tuck

Okay, so then can we all agree: Ulko has the best OG on video of any other living GSD's OG on video on the planet...........so far!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :lol::lol::lol:


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## Gillian Schuler

Amen :-D:-D:-D


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## Jim Nash

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Jim, I do understand what you are saying as well, but to sell a great dog to a ****ing police dept is just foolish. It is the black hole of dogdom, where the great, or possibly great, and the true warriors go, and we ( the rest of the planet) do not get to benefit from.
> 
> Your kick ass warrior has NO chance to show the world he is not a one off. That is why I have always called it the black hole. I never would sell a stud dog, or a possible stud dog, as breeding for the most part is not allowed.
> 
> It is a good resource wasted. 99.9% of the people out there who "claim" to need a pp dog will never ever need it, there goes another dog out of the gene pool, as it is difficult to see the over all quality of the dog.
> 
> I feel that most of the cops we have on this board that post regularly are among the 1% of them that have some good knowledge of dog training. Sure there are more, but I have trained with a lot of them that are lacking. MOST of the time, it is not their fault, some idiot came up with the idea that they have to be paid to train, and so that is a problem I have seen, and maybe that is not across the board.
> 
> The selectiffs are demanding, and the Championships are tough. The sport weeds out those unable to jump, a HUGE problem with the breed. Ring is a Mal sport, so that makes it even tougher. So take away the fact that this dog is not a police dog, and take away the fact that most police dogs are not trained in ring, and I will take my chances that Ulko is the greatest GSD on the planet. You have your "never been tested" and I have my " your dog may not be able to handle the pressure of the training. LOL
> 
> However, feel free to post video of your dogs competing in Police dog trials, I would like to see more of that. I think that you take away the leash from the handlers, and you will have better handlers out there.
> 
> So, again, if anyone has video of a dog that they believe is better than this dog, I am all for it. That is what makes it fun.
> 
> Pike produced some nice dogs, but the vid you posted makes him look kinda lame. All that drive capping, and.........................pretty basic work. Too bad we could not see him (Pike) work against "dirty" :lol: Dosta. Unfortunately, the whole targeting the middle of the forearm thing would work against him for a while. What I would want to see is how quickly this dog figured out the "deal"



Jeff , 

I agree with you . Never thought that sending a great GSD to us would be bad for the breed but I get it . Just think defending this dog as the "best" is a bit much . From what I've seen in this thread is folks argueing about what best is . GSD's do a ton of stuff .

I had looked for video of my dogs in competition (not for this discussion ) in the past . Espescially our 2000 USPCA National Champion Team but it looks like the ex-wife taped over all of them . To be honest it's not very exciting . The dogs aren't really being tested for anything but control . All it would show is that some of us dumb cops have good control of our dogs . 

Through work I've gotten some videos of a promotional tape and Japanese show my dogs were in . I'm working at getting them transferrred to DVD then posting them here . But not in the Best GSD on the Planet section .


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## Jeff Oehlsen

And everything else. You may not like the heeling, but go ahead and train a dog to heel like that, then tell me about it : )

Watch how correct the dog is on the change of positions, the pallisade, and the food refusal. THen go watch other dogs do the same exercises. THEN come and tell me he is not currently the greatest GSD on the planet. =D>=D>=D>=D>=D>=D>=D>=D>=D>=D>

Ring RULES, Sch, DROOLS.


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## Gillian Schuler

I've looked at the breeder's website and on the net, but there don't seem to be any progeny for Ulko. He was born in 2003, any reason why? Seems a pity if he weren't put to stud.


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## Mike Scheiber

susan tuck said:


> Okay, so then can we all agree: Ulko has the best OG on video of any other living GSD's OG on video on the planet...........so far!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :lol::lol::lol:


Guess through the years we/I get desensitized seeing all the great Schutzhund German Shepherd Dogs come and go and when one happens excelling in a Ring sport certain ones cant help but sprouting a little wood. 
The dog looks like a good one for sure.


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## Geoff Empey

Gillian Schuler said:


> I've looked at the breeder's website and on the net, but there don't seem to be any progeny for Ulko. He was born in 2003, any reason why? Seems a pity if he weren't put to stud.


I dunno, Check out Ulko's handler's forum. 

http://lesguerriers.easyforum.fr/index.htm

Lots of info (in french of course) and at one post he mentions his disappointment in the fact that few breeders are looking to breed to Ulko. Egos and jealousy I guess!!


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: 
Through work I've gotten some videos of a promotional tape and Japanese show my dogs were in . I'm working at getting them transferrred to DVD then posting them here . But not in the Best GSD on the Planet section .

Nope, it is being hogged by Ulko. LOL


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## Michelle Reusser

Geoff Empey said:


> I dunno, Check out Ulko's handler's forum.
> 
> http://lesguerriers.easyforum.fr/index.htm
> 
> Lots of info (in french of course) and at one post he mentions his disappointment in the fact that few breeders are looking to breed to Ulko. Egos and jealousy I guess!!


 
Oh I'm sure! The Ringers want Mals and the Sch folks wont touch him cause he isn't titled in Sch, will be a waste. I just hope the owner can find or lease a few good females to breed him to himself. All the $ and hype is in Schutzhund titles. 

Jeff maybe you can talk Ulko's owner into freezing some Ulko pops to send to the US?


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## susan tuck

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> And everything else. You may not like the heeling, but go ahead and train a dog to heel like that, then tell me about it : )
> 
> Watch how correct the dog is on the change of positions, the pallisade, and the food refusal. THen go watch other dogs do the same exercises. THEN come and tell me he is not currently the greatest GSD on the planet. =D>=D>=D>=D>=D>=D>=D>=D>=D>=D>
> 
> Ring RULES, Sch, DROOLS.


Jeff Again with the heeling?????!!!!! ](*,)](*,)](*,) 

I don't know if your comment was directed to me, but I never said I had a problem with Ulko's heeling. My comment about Ulko being the best at OG for any current living dog on video was meant to be funny because of all the comments wondering about what qualifies as the best, yada yada yada. 

I did say that in schutzhund during OB dogs are trained to heel in drive and between that and head position it causes the front legs to go higher, that' s the reason, that's it, it's no big deal, it is not indicative of what plagues schutzhund today and it sure as hell isn't something to fixate on, my brother.:lol::lol::lol:

So what did you think of the video of Mannus Tiekehook?


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## Gillian Schuler

No, not blood relations????:roll::roll::roll:


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## Connie Sutherland

Gillian Schuler said:


> No, not blood relations????:roll::roll::roll:



*?*


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## Barrie Kirkland

its in french ... cant read that. I suppose the french have to be good as something... its certainly isnt winning wars haha


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## Michelle Reusser

I likes what I saw of Manus Sue. Looks like he holds alot of power. Do you know what age he is in that video?


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## Adi Ibrahimbegovic

It's the best French Ring dog on the planet and a damn good dog overall, period. Even a dumbass like me can see that. Jeff is adding a little flair and showmanship declaring him - THE best currently.

I will not comment on the slow sit, that's stupid. The guy said sit and the dog sat. That's good enough for me.

Fortunately, there are some great GSDs out there, hard to say THIS ONE is the best or THAT one is the best, a lot fo them are great. So, maybe he is saying - TO ME this is the best. Like I said before I have followed this dog for a while and he definitely is a champ, no questions about it and he got the results and everything else to prove it and back it up.

I am very partial to Zidane Haus Sevens, again, TO ME, he is currently the best living GSD.

Not the "best on the planet" but... There is also a great dog that impressed the hell out of me Eik Nordenstamm, better known as the helper knocker. He was Terry Macias' dog.

His work banging on the helpers can be seen in this video from 2004 USA AWFD Championship: 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6e5cS0CxjBs&feature=related

The dog impressed me in that video so I researched him some more. After I researched the dog I found out he was well known for taking down helpers, any helper anytime. Same as Ulko, who developed his keen sense of Object Guard, Eik figured his unique way of attacking the helper by bitting full and literally pushing the helpers hard with his front paws, smack dab in the middle, stomach or chest.

I contacted the owner and some people that have seen him work and they all agreed the dog was dead serious in his long attack. He is still alive, currently 10 years old or so and enjoying his well earned retirement. Also, on another interesting note, he wasn't bred much, same as Ulko, so I dunno what's up with that.

Another great and not "points dog" is Mike Diehl's current dog who managed to snag and compete at this year's WUSV. I have seen that dog work at USA Nationals this past October and although he took only 14th place, he impressed me the most of all of them. I cannot wait and see how he does in Germany WUSV this year.

Also, not alive anymore, but one cool mofo is Mike Diehl's old dog Stormfront Brawnson, a legend in his own right.

There are of course more of them that I like, but I stongly dislike "points dogs", they seem to win everything these days.

But, with dogs like Ulko and others I and other people mentioned here, GSD as it should be, is alive and well.


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## Geoff Empey

Timothy Stacy said:


> No I didn't mean it like that. I meant more in the aspects of the meandering after the jumps, the recalls, and the retrieves. How do they judge this?


Depending on the jump for instance the long jump once the dog completes it the exercise is over. Both the hurdle and palisade on the return portion of the jump once the dog is within a 1m radius = exercise complete. 

Between exercises it is a loose heel you are not scored on that except for general allure points, and only if your dog is being a meathead. The judges are looking for completion of the work (exercises) within the rules nothing more.

As for recalls and retrieves yes there is a time limit for both. For attacks it depends on the exercise. Flee, face and stop it is 30 secs. Defense, Escort and Revolver 5 secs. Retrieves it is 30 secs to bring the item back to the handler. There is no other bonus for 'not' meandering as you say, just the possibility of losing the points for the recall which is -5 points out of 30 or 40 depending on exercise. Or -8 or -4 on 12 or 8 for the retrieves. 

I almost lost my recall at the Empire Ringsport trial in May for our defense of handler, as you should be within 3m of the decoy when the judge sounds the horn. I was double that and she couldn't see me through the crowd when I recalled her so she did a wide arc looking for me I got very lucky that she made it to me in time. 

Hope this answers your questions.

Check out the rule book here for more info if you are interested...

http://www.ringsport.org/Rulebook2009.pdf


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## susan tuck

Connie Sutherland said:


> *?*


 
I think cuz I called the prince of darkness "my brother"


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## Gillian Schuler

susan tuck said:


> I think cuz I called the prince of darkness "my brother"


Exactly :lol:


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## Gillian Schuler

Another contender but can't find any videos of him. However, his records do speak for his quality:

http://www.germanshepherd-heukske.com/html/knpv/2000/youri.html


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