# Improving tug interaction



## lannie dulin (Sep 4, 2012)

How do you discourage a dog from taking the tug to the ground and chewing on it. I'm working on building my female's tug drive, but she always wants to take the tug to ground and chew on it. I get the impression that she loses interest because I encourage her to bring it to me when that's not what she wants to do. 

After a few tugs she loses interest. It usually starts off well and when I let her win I run away and encourage her to follow. When she does I tug a few times, let her win and then run away again (rinse and repeat). At one point she'll stop bringing it to me and will just chew on it. When I take it and try and re-engage she is noticeably less driven. (Still happy, but done with the tug.) I can put it on a line like a flirt pole and get her back into it a few more times, but she'll lose interest in that after a few as well. 

Now for an interesting twist. She works just fine on the flirt pole. She'll chase it until she's exhausted and when I make her release so I can make her chase again she gets right back into it. It seems she just doesn't think it's as fun to play with me, no matter how over the top animated I am or make the tug move (although that does help some when she's dropping off in drive). 

Thoughts?


----------



## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

Sounds like the flirt pole is more exciting. Maybe your performance is a little flat? Some dogs are very sensitive to the technique... super excited toy coming at the dog may not stimulate prey as much as slow lame moving away (prey rarely just runs toward and sacrifices itself to the predator)

If she loses interest after "a few tugs" with you, on "a few tugs" minus "one tug" stop and put up the tug, or chew on it front of her lol


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

lannie dulin said:


> How do you discourage a dog from taking the tug to the ground and chewing on it. I'm working on building my female's tug drive, but she always wants to take the tug to ground and chew on it. I get the impression that she loses interest because I encourage her to bring it to me when that's not what she wants to do.
> 
> After a few tugs she loses interest. It usually starts off well and when I let her win I run away and encourage her to follow. When she does I tug a few times, let her win and then run away again (rinse and repeat). At one point she'll stop bringing it to me and will just chew on it. When I take it and try and re-engage she is noticeably less driven. (Still happy, but done with the tug.) I can put it on a line like a flirt pole and get her back into it a few more times, but she'll lose interest in that after a few as well.
> 
> ...


in what context are you looking to interact with the dog with the tug? what is the goal of the interaction? and tug use?

I think your impression is probably correct, that you are doing something that the dog does not want to do as much as taking the tug and ultimately chewing it up...lots of dogs seem to prefer to shred shit up than bring it back and let us play with it, if allowed to. 

how is the dog with a ball?


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Do you build frustration for the tug by making tie dog miss a part of the time? If she is allowed to get it every time then she looses interest. make her work for it. That's the same as the flirt pole except the extra speed of the flirt pole can create more excitement.
You have to decide if this is your tug work or a dog with lower drive. I think using the flirt pole to long can create this sometimes. It also can create a false sense of drive because of the speed.


----------



## lannie dulin (Sep 4, 2012)

Joby Becker said:


> in what context are you looking to interact with the dog with the tug? what is the goal of the interaction? and tug use?
> 
> I think your impression is probably correct, that you are doing something that the dog does not want to do as much as taking the tug and ultimately chewing it up...lots of dogs seem to prefer to shred shit up than bring it back and let us play with it, if allowed to.
> 
> how is the dog with a ball?


I'd like to be able to build tug into an OB reward. I'd also like to build the drive up so as to transfer it over to bite work. 

The ball question is interesting, because she doesn't like balls. But she will fetch a tug all day. One of my favorite exercises for her is to throw a floaty tug out at the lake and have her do water retrieves. She'll do it without fail for 45 minutes. 

Her food drive is also strong. That is what I use currently for all her OB, because it's so reliable.


----------



## lannie dulin (Sep 4, 2012)

Bob Scott said:


> Do you build frustration for the tug by making tie dog miss a part of the time? If she is allowed to get it every time then she looses interest. make her work for it. That's the same as the flirt pole except the extra speed of the flirt pole can create more excitement.
> You have to decide if this is your tug work or a dog with lower drive. I think using the flirt pole to long can create this sometimes. It also can create a false sense of drive because of the speed.


Hi Bob, no I've never had her on a tie-out. I do involve some misses when I play tug though. I do question if it is low drive or me (thus my post). She is a presa and I have heard that prey drive can be a challenge for them. My male doesn't have that problem, he has prey drive all day long, so this is a new challenge for me.


----------



## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Had this problem before and found its a mix of genetics training and drives,one bitch would do it because even though she had the drive to chase any moving object she just didnt want to reinstigate the play she had to much possesion and winning it and keeping it was her reward but i also think that as a pup if i had of encouraged bringing it back to reinstigate that would have gone a long way..thats the training part..two dogs i have now smash the tug back into you they want you to play with them and they want to show you how good they are by winning again but both have huge prey drive and a willingness to work there arses off..i seriously think its a mix of drives and training


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

You don't need them on a tie out. It's just a matter of being quick with your work.
My brother has a Presa and I know of a number of other ones. Prey isn't a strong suit with them but I've seen it develop nicely although rarely to the level of a herder. 
Training can do only so much with genetics.


----------



## Jay Quinn (Apr 1, 2012)

get yourself a copy of The Power of Playing Tug with Your Dog (or something very similar - too lazy to go look it up right now) by Leerburg and Michael Ellis... and watch it over and over again until it all sinks in 

brilliant tug play system and lots of trouble shooting tips on the second disc


----------



## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

lannie dulin said:


> Hi Bob, no I've never had her on a tie-out. I do involve some misses when I play tug though. I do question if it is low drive or me (thus my post). She is a presa and I have heard that prey drive can be a challenge for them. My male doesn't have that problem, he has prey drive all day long, so this is a new challenge for me.


Lannie, I found that my Mastiff always was stronger for the chase component than for the actual tug interaction. I did find a few things that would increase engagement on her part. One would be to tug near a door, fence, building, or obstacle of some sort. As I brought her nearer to these objects she'd counter with considerable power and commitment. Oddly, and to be honest, I think there was something about this type of interaction with me that she didn't like (tugging). I found out by accident though that if I turned my torso slightly away from her (no matter what was around me) she'd remain well engaged.

When it comes right down to it, I've noticed that she's always been more driven by the prey movements that I simulate off a lunge line than from the interaction of tug. So one of the things I did was leave the tug on the lunge line and when she was allowed to win it when she took it to the ground I'd use that as my opportunity to animate it reinitiate the chase. At first I needed to have more chase than tug and eventually built off that.

Not sure if this helps or not. Have a good one.


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

"Oddly, and to be honest, I think there was something about this type of interaction with me that she didn't like (tugging). I found out by accident though that if I turned my torso slightly away from her (no matter what was around me) she'd remain well engaged".


Not uncommon when a handler with maybe less then ideal skills, or an immature, or not 100% confident dog.
The owner working their own dog in defense, intended or not, is a skill not many have and fewer dogs can handle it . 
Your "turned my torso slightly away from her" tells me these are possibilities.


----------



## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

Bob Scott said:


> "Oddly, and to be honest, I think there was something about this type of interaction with me that she didn't like (tugging). I found out by accident though that if I turned my torso slightly away from her (no matter what was around me) she'd remain well engaged".
> 
> 
> Not uncommon when a handler with maybe less then ideal skills, or an immature, or not 100% confident dog.
> ...


I agree. The dog's perception is all that really matters... just b/c you think its an innocent game of tug doesn't make it so.
OP are you keeping eye contact with the dog the whole time?


----------



## lannie dulin (Sep 4, 2012)

Yeah i get the being next to a building and stuff as being something that would kick in the defensive drive of the dog. In a high defense breed like the presa that might be something to consider. I don't think I got a firm enough grasp on how to do that appropriately and would likely do more harm than good. I like the torso turn, that makes it less confrontational. I might have to play with that a bit. My presentations are mainly front, and varying that would be good. I had a request for video so I'll shoot something to share for better feedback.


----------



## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

> One of my Hardest Lessons to Learn... When You Earn the Toy, Punch Back Into Me With It
> 
> When you are playing with your dog, if and only if you have a dog that plays with toys, the only fun toy should be the one in your hand. Teach your dog that having the toy on his own is dull and boring, and the only fun one is the one that Mummy (or Daddy) has. You want to reward him with his toy, and have him flying back at you with no commands from you.
> 
> ...


----------



## lannie dulin (Sep 4, 2012)

Okay I like it, but here is what I'm betting will happen. Eventually my female ends up with a pile of toys she sits on and chews while I now have none and am again force to try and steal one of her's LOL!

I really do like it though, I'm totally going to try this.


----------



## lannie dulin (Sep 4, 2012)

So I tried the multiple toy thing last night and got mixed results. It did seem less confrontational in the sense that I wasn't trying to talk her into bring a toy back to me she didn't really want to. She was very interested when I picked up a new toy when she took off with the one I let her win. She did try to pile them up so she could guard them and chew on them, but she couldn't manage to get all 5 in 1 place, so I was able to continue the exercise. However, after about 5 or 6 tug play sessions she was still done and wouldn't go after another toy and didn't want to take the one I was playing with. She just stood there and wagged her tail at me like "okay, I'm done with this let's go play something else". I intended to shoot vid, but really wanted to try this method. I'll shoot the vid today (or tomorrow, lol).


----------



## lannie dulin (Sep 4, 2012)

Bob Scott said:


> You don't need them on a tie out. It's just a matter of being quick with your work.
> My brother has a Presa and I know of a number of other ones. Prey isn't a strong suit with them but I've seen it develop nicely although rarely to the level of a herder.
> Training can do only so much with genetics.


Yeah I'm aware of prey being a challenge for the breed. I'm just trying to build it up as much as possible in her. I wish I would have done more drive work with her when she was really young, but I think she can still come up a bit more in prey drive. I just need to get her up there enough to help me out in her bite work. Her grips are great and she's a great looking presa, I'm just trying to balance out her weaknesses.


----------



## lannie dulin (Sep 4, 2012)

Jay Quinn said:


> get yourself a copy of The Power of Playing Tug with Your Dog (or something very similar - too lazy to go look it up right now) by Leerburg and Michael Ellis... and watch it over and over again until it all sinks in
> 
> brilliant tug play system and lots of trouble shooting tips on the second disc


Hi Jay, 

Yeah I have that one. I'm watching it for the 2nd time now (been a while since I last watched it). I'm also going to train with ME in Aug, I'm trying to really ramp up my training this month so as to get the most of my time with him.


----------



## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

This worked well with my mal, but it took, time.


----------

