# Starting pups...



## Andres Martin

I don't start them in defense. What I do with puppies is this: first and most important, I select a puppy that shows social aggression and forward movement when faced with uncertainty; second, at night, a decoy walks around at aprox 25 yards from me, and then raises his voice at me, I raise it back...and start using a cue...and, regardless of what my puppy is doing, I move towards the decoy and beat the crap out of him. Many times the pups just hang back, thinking, "Wow, what a strange owner I have." It doesn't take more than five sessions, with a good puppy, to understand that he should follow the owner, bite the decoy, submit the decoy, etc. in response to specific words, or raised voices against strangers. 

The IMMENSE benefits of this, are that the dog learns forward movement, it learns - via shaping - to ATTACK, not defend, and it's NOT MOVEMENT INDUCED. Also, the pup learns to fight TOGETHER with the handler, which is how reality is many times. 

I take my dog to places where there are strange children...and sometimes he must work off lead. God forbid he were to bite a child just because the child ran...or acted scared. Mind you, good pups usually have SO MUCH prey, that one needs to control it, rather than enhance it. 

Pressure comes into play...as does pain...in the measure the dog can take it and overcome in a positive way. Sometimes if you apply too much pressure, the dog must think, "Crap! I just went through chaos! I'm gonna hang back some next time." That's not a good outcome. The dog must come out of every encounter - in full blown social aggression - thinking, "I'm an ass-kicker!" 

And so, I take it slow.

I've been training on obstacles, and actually...any stressor...and teaching ON/IN that environment since I was 8 yrs old. That's how my dad did it. He also used food, and played with the dogs, etc. Throughout my entire life we had GSD, until I saw the, "Jeez, what kinda dog is that?"...and as an adult, I switched to Mals. They were all tough dogs. Any dog that was not up to my dad's standard in power and stability was actually shot. The dogs that remained were an INTEGRAL part of our family. 

Teaching pups and practicing in "the real world" is what the synthesis of the "Baden method" is. They did not invent it. I am not affiliated. It works beautifully. No dog beating, no extreme avoidance, except to teach the dog to overcome what's causing it...gradually. Frankly, if you don't push a dog beyond where IT wants to go, even after food or tugs...you WILL NOT GET THE DOG ANY FURTHER...AND IT WILL NEVER KNOW IT CAN. 

Regarding the Baden claims on their web site, there's a bit of everything. Marketing is a bitch. And they make a living from this. So...I'm sure they exaggerate some. But those exaggerations appeal to a "niche" that buys. No big deal. People do that all the time. In every industry, for all products. Just make sure you sift through it to get the good stuff. Sometimes you have to do some more or some less sifting.

From a pure philosophical view, I agree with what the site says...specifically: People are soft, and soften up the breeds; everything that's bred does not deserve to live; people don't know or accept anything beyond the cookie cutter approach to dog training; people are more interested in themselves than in others; people are materialistic and status seekers as a rule, etc., etc.


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## Greg Long

Andres,

Since that was so eloquently put,could you explain the importance of genetics in that type of work? :lol: Do you breed your own lines or get dogs from sport stock?


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## Andres Martin

It's not about the stock...it's about the pup. I do both, breed my own dogs and buy outside.
Genetics and phenotype are ALL important, IMO. You can't do more than what the animal can do.


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## Guest

Uh-oh. I did it all wrong #-o . I beat Caleb mercilessly beginning at 8 weeks to make him the fear- biting nervebag he is today. :lol: 

Andres, how far past the "comfort zone" do you push a dog? (Per session and overall) How long does it usually take to determine when to shoot the s.o.b.?


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## Selena van Leeuwen

*mens, ga met jezelf spelen ofzo..dan doe je wat nuttigs en hebben wij er geen last van*

I just let a puppy be a puppy...play, potty train, socialize with things. Biting is first out of prey, just playing. It comes out eventually and a dog doesn´t have to ready at 12 or 18 mo. They´re ready when they are about 3.5 yrs...take it easy; even the hardest dog can snap..


You can´t learn a toddler universaty stuff...start with kindergarden stuff :wink:


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## Mike Schoonbrood

I started food obedience (sit/down only) a little earlier than Selena, but other than that, what she said.


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## Andres Martin

Selena's way, which is no question the most common, allows for unfettered development of the pup, but...

1) can (Selena, Mike) you trust your pups in a group of children?
2) can you trust your pup to be aware of you in a busy field?
3) can you trust your pup not to "chase" things or people he shouldn't chase?
4) can you trust your pups to not use his teeth indisciminately?

Let's say you have friends over for dinner...can your dog(s) be with you and be easy going?

Please don't assume I pressure my dogs inappropriately. My dogs have always been fun, easy going, they bite hard and full, they obey in distractions, they have fun climbing, sliding, in the dark, etc., etc.

...but they have stability.

My pup now is 21 months old...and he doesn't know pain yet. But he knows all kinds of environmental work, he's very sure around noise and gunfire, he knows about biting with opposition...

I agree that a dog is finished at around 3 1/2 years old.



> Andres, how far past the "comfort zone" do you push a dog?


Very little, but always a little. I'm very patient and nurturing. A pup is a pup, but that doesn't give him the "right" to become conditioned to movement, nor should it enhance a toothy response to movement, nor should it allow for him to be an unruly pain in the ass.

Not all dogs are working dogs...by birth, genetics and prepping...


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## David Frost

Interesting thread for me. I'm not a breeder, I don't buy puppies and don't start puppies. I don't plan on doing so either, but the discussion is interesting to me.

DFrost


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## Jeff Oehlsen

All righty then, lets see a video.

I could give two poops about Baden, but I have seen a dog of theirs work, and while it wasn't the dogs fault, the work the dog recieved was a JOKE. I am old and fat and I would expect with all the hype that their decoys wouldn't SUCK that bad. Just pointing out the BS.


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## Andres Martin

> All righty then, lets see a video.


 :lol: :lol: :lol: What would you like to see? I'll try to accomodate...


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## Mike Schoonbrood

The real question is... do I WANT a puppy that behaves like that at 8 months old.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Andres, I want to see them all. I am currently trying to figure how to put some pics from the trial up. Really good stuff and a few of him obviously ignoring me.


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## Andres Martin

> The real question is... do I WANT a puppy that behaves like that at 8 months old.


Lyka is your first working dog........IN PROCESS.

Only time will tell...but you have talent and intelligence...

ah...I presume your answers are all, "No."


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## Selena van Leeuwen

Andres Martin said:


> Selena's way, which is no question the most common, allows for unfettered development of the pup, but...
> 
> 1) can (Selena, Mike) you trust your pups in a group of children? Why should i? My dogs only have to be social with me and hubby, i do not have pets, i have working dogs.
> 2) can you trust your pup to be aware of you in a busy field? yes..the only command i teach before 8-12 mo. is "hier" (come) and if i use that it is a duty..so must be obeyed anywhere, everytime..but i do not visit busy (dog)fields
> 3) can you trust your pup not to "chase" things or people he shouldn't chase? yes...see answer on 2.
> 4) can you trust your pups to not use his teeth indisciminately? I want to use a dog to use his teeth indisciminately
> 
> Let's say you have friends over for dinner...can your dog(s) be with you and be easy going? again...i don´t have pets
> 
> Please don't assume I pressure my dogs inappropriately. My dogs have always been fun, easy going, they bite hard and full, they obey in distractions, they have fun climbing, sliding, in the dark, etc., etc.
> 
> ...but they have stability.mine to.. genetics..not taught, they´re king of the world, free to do what they like..if i allowed them to. In the first months they learn they are the greatest, but all above I am leader. There free untill i say otherwise. Not learning commands doesn´t mean we´re not bonding..the first months are the foundation of trust, friendship and leadership


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## Andres Martin

> i do not have pets, i have working dogs.


Yes...but, I need my dog free in the house because I live in a more dangerous environment than in the Netherlands.


> but i do not visit busy (dog)fields


How about horses, cows, chickens, pigs, goats, garbage, sewage, rabbits, armadillos, squirrels, cats?...these are abundant where I work the dog.


> I want to use a dog to use his teeth indisciminately


This I can't have...because the dog must bite ONLY what I tell him to.

Selena...you have sport dogs that are later converted to working dogs.

I'm close to running away under cover now... :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## Debbie High

Andres,

......just so we don't have a "failure to communicate"......what kinds of stressors are you saying need to be used. "Stress" can cover a wide range of stimuli from taking them to a new patch of grass to beating them half to death with a board or worse. I need to be educated! :lol: 


Debbie


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## Jeff Oehlsen

So beating with a board is something you see anyone on this board doing? *** EDIT****


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## Andres Martin

Pressure is IMO dog specific. Some dogs don't like elevations, some don't like water, some don't do well in confined spaces, or on slippery surfaces, or next to other animals, or on unstable surfaces, etc. so you have to look at what stresses your dog as an individual and work on that.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Which you knew was the answer, not beating with a board. Cheapshot.


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## Selena van Leeuwen

Andres Martin said:


> i do not have pets, i have working dogs.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes...but, I need my dog free in the house because I live in a more dangerous environment than in the Netherlands.
> Oke, my dogs lives outside in kennels in the yard
> 
> 
> 
> 
> but i do not visit busy (dog)fields
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> How about horses, cows, chickens, pigs, goats, garbage, sewage, rabbits, armadillos, squirrels, cats?...these are abundant where I work the dog.
> i have a cat (main ****)which likes to go allong while we´re walking the dogs..they (learn) to ignore him..no horses,cows, pigs, coat, armadillos, squirrels around here...horses and cows only in fenced fields and i can pass them without problems. Pigs only live in barns here, armadillos isn´t a european specie. Squirrels only the little red ones in the woods and they run in a tree if we´re walking the dog, same for rabits. Dog (learn) to ignore them. Garbage is only found in thrash cans and what is sewage?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I want to use a dog to use his teeth indisciminately
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> This I can't have...because the dog must bite ONLY what I tell him to.
> 
> as a pup they may (try) to bite what he likes, unless i telling him not to..later on I tell him what he may and not bite (command vast)
> 
> Selena...you have sport dogs that are later converted to working dogs.
> 
> I'm close to running away under cover now... :lol: :lol: :lol:
Click to expand...

your wife still around? let her read this...no quality time for Andres tonight unless her learns to behave himself...or.. if I harm you with this: make up a chore he hates

:twisted: :twisted: 

Seriously: My anne is considered as a sportsdog by us...but others wouldn´t say that. Hubby doesn´t have sportdogs who converted into working dogs. His dogs are first working dogs that he learns to behave enough to also be a sportsdog.


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## Andres Martin

Quality time on weekends is early in the morning. Nights are a bit busy.


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## Connie Sutherland

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> ...... Hubby doesn´t have sportdogs who converted into working dogs. His dogs are first working dogs that he learns to behave enough to also be a sportsdog.


Good answer, Selena! 8)


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## Selena van Leeuwen

Andres Martin said:


> Quality time on weekends is early in the morning. Nights are a bit busy.


hhahhahahahahaahha

okey i found 1 advantage for not being able to have kids  ...quality time isn´t bounded on early mornings in the weekend :wink:


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## Mike Schoonbrood

> Lÿka is your first working dog........IN PROCESS.


I see plenty of dogs every day raised in many different ways living in various situations owned by a variety of different handlers trained for a variety of tasks. Unless I'm blind and someone forgot to tell me, I have a pretty good idea of what I'm getting into. I spend 20-30+ hours a week around working dogs, my trainer tells me I should just live in one of his kennel runs :lol: It's not like I spend 2 hours on a Sunday morning at a Schutzhund club. Lÿka is very easy to manage, she is completely focused on me, especially when in a strange location, she doesn't like being touched by people at all so I don't have to worry about her chasing after people. She has no interest in other animals at all, she doesn't even notice them even if I'm standing in a pet store and shove her face into the Chinchilla cage. I don't bring her around kids and I don't have any, she isn't a calm dog and I don't want her to be, so no she can't relax and be calm when people are in the house, if she knows them she will happily greet them without using her teeth, then she'll go off and play with a toy I give her for as long as I let her, she'll spend literally 2 hours playing with a big 10" ball on a rope without breaking focus for more than 2 seconds to have a sip of water. She doesn't like strangers, she barks at people who try to pet her, and she has her spaz hyper moments when she has too much pent up energy.

My GSD on the other hand, sure he doesn't count as a "working dog" to the standards you expect, but he does all those things you mentioned, at 2 years old. He was alot harder to handle as a puppy than Lÿka, he was the dog that always wants to chase dragonflies (Lÿka doesn't even notice them), he's the one that doesn't focus on a single toy so wants to shred everything in sight, he's the quiet one that as a puppy he'd go lay down quietly, then I'd look up 20 minutes later and he'd have chewed up the corner of a rug or the baseboard of the wall. He didn't settle down when crated, he'd bark and bark and bark for hours at night and never shut up. His obedience is always slow and reluctant because he's stubborn, you can correct the snot outta him or motivate him with toys and food, it doesn't make a difference, he just has that temprement.

My bond with Lÿka is strong, she has absolute faith in me, I never steer her wrong, both my dogs do in fact, they both want to be near me and both have complete focus on me, if I so much as move my arm, both my dogs will look up at me from accross the room in anticipation.

I can't help but notice that your agenda is more trying to push your ideas onto others, then discrediting their beliefs by pointing out that you've trained more dogs than they have, rather than just accepting that not everyone does it the way you do. Yet, all the dogs raised and trained the way Selena raises her dogs still seem to do all the things their handlers expect from them, and the individual dogs temprement dictates how social that dog will be around the family or children or any of that stuff you mentioned. Prey drive is there, if you have a dog that wants to chase stuff, that's not going to disappear simply by training the dog to bite a man without prey, it'll only go away if you work on the dogs control work... I don't need my dog to be controllable as a 5 month old pup, I will work on chasing things that shouldn't be chased later, and teach the dog that it's OK to chase things if I tell them they can. If I tell Cujo to chase dragonflies he'll look around and try to find them, otherwise he won't chase them, but I didn't teach that when he was a puppy, that came later.

Anyway, I told someone I'd be at their house by 6, and I haven't even left yet, crap.


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## Andres Martin

> okey i found 1 advantage for not being able to have kids


It's also cheaper. I know...I have 5...product of lots and lots of quality time.

Now...seriously...isn't it better to teach the behaviors you want early on, rather then have some other behaviors establish themselves...and then have to re-do or correct?


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## Debbie High

Andres Martin said:


> Pressure is IMO dog specific. Some dogs don't like elevations, some don't like water, some don't do well in confined spaces, or on slippery surfaces, or next to other animals, or on unstable surfaces, etc. so you have to look at what stresses your dog as an individual and work on that.


Thanks Andres, this is what I thought or should say know. This is a public forum and there are people that don't understand this.....I know from some of the questions I have been asked by others.

and Jeff I didn't ask you anything.....it's just great to have you back, you add so much. As for growing up I just knew you were about 18 til someone told me differently. Go wipe your snotty nose.

Debbie


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## Selena van Leeuwen

Andres Martin said:


> Now...seriously...isn't it better to teach the behaviors you want early on, rather then have some other behaviors establish themselves...and then have to re-do or correct?


I redirect them as a puppy for the things I really don´t want them to do (chewing on my gardenhose for example). So no selfrewarding behaviors they learn, no correcting, no re doing :wink: The behaviors i want most is the only focus: trust, friendship and my leadership..


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## Connie Sutherland

Andres Martin said:


> .......Now...seriously...isn't it better to teach the behaviors you want early on, rather then have some other behaviors establish themselves...and then have to re-do or correct?


Isn't there some kind of infancy with dogs? Maybe not the same as humans, but isn't there age-appropriate training?


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## Connie Sutherland

Oops. Selena, you beat me, and said it better. :lol:


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## Selena van Leeuwen

oh btw I do enviromental things (slippery floor, stand on gardentable (height and unbalanced) but that for me seeing the world not a real trainingfocus. It is for a minute orso, than hugging or playing and move on in his discovery of the world :wink:


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## Andres Martin

> Isn't there some kind of infancy with dogs? Maybe not the same as humans, but isn't there age-appropriate training?


Of course there is...and it's what makes training SO much easier. A puppy, ages 6 weeks to 2 years (that's what I consider a puppy) can learn a million things, can start becoming conditioned to certain cues, can start to understand limits...not all at once, not fully, but the best time IMO to start the process is right around 6 weeks.

Many people don't want to REDUCE a dog's drives...and that is why they let pups be...but a good dog's drives won't be reduced...they will be controlled...by proper education. This education is equal to LESS problems later on...more handler focus...less ME, ME, ME.


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## Andres Martin

Working Dog Forum
Working Dog Discussion for PPD, Sport and K9

This is the title of your forum, Mike.



> I can't help but notice that your agenda is more trying to push your ideas onto others, then discrediting their beliefs by pointing out that you've trained more dogs than they have, rather than just accepting that not everyone does it the way you do.


 I am sharing...not pushing...a different point of view, to stimulate Discussion.

Regarding my agenda...I am a husband and father of five, I run a couple of companies, I work dogs, plus a few more things...AND I'M GOING TO HAVE AN AGENDA ON A DOG FORUM?

I HAVEN'T DISCREDITED anyone. It's not my style. I don't like having it done to me. After reading your paragraph that I just quoted however, it's interesting to interpret your view of yourself. If you took direct offense, none was meant. If you don't wish to entertain differing views, just say so. If you wish to continue a NEVER ENDING learning process - it's better to BE HARD ON THE ISSUES...AND SOFT ON THE PEOPLE THAT PUT THEM FORTH.


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## Bob Scott

My thoughs on puppys are that you can accompliish more between 6-12,14 wk with good IMPRINTING not training then you can in the next year.
I expect any 12-14 wk old pup to know sit, down, come, even the beginning of heeling. There is absolutely no reason the pup has to be stressed with this imprinting. 
At the same time I will expose a pup to everything I can possible find for them. How much stress is dependant on the temperment of the individual pup.
By 12wks, my GSD had all the basic obedience imprinting, was able to find me in a one acre of tall grass, and had also been exposed to shotguns, helicopter flights, fire house alarms and sirens, swimming, boats, walking over elevated boards, plastic, slick floors, etc.
He will be three in January and has STILL never had a physical correction during training. Must be a sissy soft dog huh? He'll go civil in a heart beat and has shown no inclination to back down from any of the half dozen helpers he's had in front of him. 
My Mal is 6months old and has all the same obedience imprinting but is taking much more time adjusting to stress exposure. Although she takes time adjusting to new expieriences, when she does her bite work you could drive a train through the club field and she wouldn't notice.
Just different dogs that need different handling.


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## Connie Sutherland

Andres Martin said:


> Working Dog Forum
> Working Dog Discussion for PPD, Sport and K9
> 
> This is the title of your forum, Mike.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I can't help but notice that your agenda is more trying to push your ideas onto others, then discrediting their beliefs by pointing out that you've trained more dogs than they have, rather than just accepting that not everyone does it the way you do.
> 
> 
> 
> I am sharing...not pushing...a different point of view, to stimulate Discussion.
> 
> Regarding my agenda...I am a husband and father of five, I run a couple of companies, I work dogs, plus a few more things...AND I'M GOING TO HAVE AN AGENDA ON A DOG FORUM?
> 
> I HAVEN'T DISCREDITED anyone. It's not my style. I don't like having it done to me. After reading your paragraph that I just quoted however, it's interesting to interpret your view of yourself. If you took direct offense, none was meant. If you don't wish to entertain differing views, just say so. If you wish to continue a NEVER ENDING learning process - it's better to BE HARD ON THE ISSUES...AND SOFT ON THE PEOPLE THAT PUT THEM FORTH.
Click to expand...

Andres, I have to say, with respect, that I personally sometimes experience a sense of being steam-rollered. Not offended at all (you mentioned "taking offense") -- in fact, your posts are courteous and good-humored -- but somewhat....... I guess overwhelmed is the word. Maybe others don't have that experience, and you might be right about the reader's (my) views of herself. 

I too would prefer that opposing viewpoints aren't greeted only with comments on how many (or few) wotking dogs the poster has trained.

I hope this isn't offensive, because that's not my intention. I immediately identified with Mike's post, and it seemed cowardly not to say so. 

And to return to the topic, with everyone still friendly --- thank you, Bob, for the discussion of imprinting.


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## Connie Sutherland

P.S. I might as well add this: "Not wishing to entertain differing views" seems to me to be patently unjust. I thought this board was a veritable model for differing views and tolerance.


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## Selena van Leeuwen

Andres Martin said:


> Isn't there some kind of infancy with dogs? Maybe not the same as humans, but isn't there age-appropriate training?
> 
> 
> 
> Of course there is...and it's what makes training SO much easier. A puppy, ages 6 weeks to 2 years (that's what I consider a puppy) can learn a million things, can start becoming conditioned to certain cues, can start to understand limits...not all at once, not fully, but the best time IMO to start the process is right around 6 weeks.
> 
> Many people don't want to REDUCE a dog's drives...and that is why they let pups be...but a good dog's drives won't be reduced...they will be controlled...by proper education. This education is equal to LESS problems later on...more handler focus...less ME, ME, ME.
Click to expand...

IMO by early controlling the dogs are devoloping differently, to many people put to much control/compulsion on a dog so you reduce the "real dog" inside. If you´re very patient, without pressure, sure your and bobs methods work very well. 
On the other hand..i´m not that patient, have to much natural pressure on a dog and i´m intolerant (hubby even more than me). A puppy will break and never become a good working dog, that the reason they don´t live in the house (you wil have to tell no don´t do that often (don´t chew furniture, don´t touch the plants etc.) It depends on your own character, puppys character.


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## Debbie High

Selena van Leeuwen said:


> [
> IMO by early controlling the dogs are devoloping differently, to many people put to much control/compulsion on a dog so you reduce the "real dog" inside. If you´re very patient, without pressure, sure your and bobs methods work very well. .


Seleena you answered my next question before I could get back!!! Would like to add that control to the point of avoidance in puppies and young dogs is very bad for their development.IMO. I know that in some situations avoidance is neccessary in adults, but even then do you feel that too much of this can have a detrimental effect on their training?

I too, have found that the imprinting done during the 8-12, 16 week period is what sticks for life....it seems to truly become a part of their psyche!

Thanks,
Debbie

Debbie


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote:Go wipe your snotty nose. 

I do have an abundant supply thanks to allergies. If we ever meet, I will show you the "farmers blow" I have perfected. Bring wipes, as you will probably end up messy.


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## Debbie High

LOL.......something tells me we won't ever meet.....I don't think we run in the circles.


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