# Tail chasing-again



## Julia Norton VMD

I posted a few months ago about a recently purchased shepherd pup who was tail chasing. She improved briefly but has worsened w adolescence and hormones. At this point I plan on spaying her once her heat cycle is well past. Everyone mentions keeping her busy both mentally and physically but I am at my wits end. Today I did some tracking and then hiked our state park for an hour throwing her ball and playing tug of war. Despite the exercise she will come home and if she is near the other dogs she will spin and tail chase for an hour.For some reason the other dogs seem to be her major trigger. She will even tail chase if she sees them thru a window.Interestingly she did not tail chase when we took her to the mountains w/out the other dogs. I am a veterinarian myself so have contacted several behaviorists and they seem to feel she will prob develope other triggers down the road. I have tried clomicalm but it helped only a little. Since she has now bitten the end of her tail she may have to have a no bite collar . Currently I am trying to keep her away from the dogs but it is difficult. They are friendly so that is not an issue. One is middle-aged and the others are geriatric and don't want to play constantly, so she becomes frustatrated. She is low-med drive, very trainable, hi prey drive, not over the top active. She is half DDR and half WG working lines. This is my first shepherd coming from rotties and sadly it is not going well. It is particularly diff because my kids love her and she is great w them. She is also my hiking companion and comes to work. Any suggestions? Has anyone seen an inherited component to this? Any ideas on the prognosis?


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## todd pavlus

Could be some sort of displacement behavior


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## Jeff Oehlsen

There are dogs out there that just don't get it. Yours seems to be one of them. Send it back and see if you can get your money back.


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## Julia Norton VMD

Any idea what you do for displacement behavior? And yes we have considered returning her as a last resort. I just don't want to live w this problem for 1q0 yrs. At this point if meds would manage the behavior I would keep her and deal w the likelihood that she will not be a good starter schutzhund proispect. My kids love her and she is a great companion otherwise. I also think it might be diff to find the right home for her although she might do better as an only


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## todd pavlus

*What is tail chasing or spinning in dogs? *
Compulsive tail chasing may be a displacement or compulsive disorder in some dogs, other causes include a form of epilepsy, physical discomfort and medical illness. Some cases such as those seen in Bull and Staffordshire terriers may exhibit a more intense spinning or whirling behavior Other concurrent behavior problems such as aggression have been reported in "spinning" Bull Terriers. In some cases, the problem may have started as an incidental or play behavior that was conditioned (rewarded) by the owner. Once underlying medical problems are treated and an epileptic disorder has been ruled out, behavior and drug therapy is usually the same as for other compulsive disorders (see above).


Here's a link to the site 



http://www.mypetspages.com/petinfo/behavior/compulsivebehavior.php


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## Jeff Oehlsen

You could always dock the dang thing, nothing to chase.


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## Maren Bell Jones

Sounds like a displacement behavior that's just being reinforced by her own actions, like cribbing in horses. Perhaps they get the endorphins going and literally addicted to the behavior. Are you doing bite work with her as well? I think I've seen videos of dogs that spin a few times in frustration for a bite on the sleeve or tug when they're in drive, but not tail chasing. Looking on the bright side, I guess at least she's not coming up the leash at you? 

If you wanted to keep her as an active pet but still wanted a different working prospect, do you think she'd be okay with another (male?) dog in the house? That'd probably be the biggest consideration in balancing wanting to keep her with wanting a good working prospect.


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## Julia Norton VMD

Unfortunately she spins even at the sight of the other dogs thru the window. If out w them she will tail chase for an hour or more. We have tried constant separation but that is not a long term solution. If the other dogs were willing to play constantly that would help. But they are older and tired of her. Even if I run her for an hour she will come back and spin at the sight of the other dogs.However she can calm herself away from them. Even my very patient husband is getting fed up w the situation. I am trying a low dose of phenobarbital as a last resort.


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## Anne Vaini

It reminds me of "fly-catching" behaviors. Dang I remember reading A LOT about this a few years back. The general conclusion was medication, and there was a lot to say about it. There were several studies referenced. Gosh - I should look this up.

This doesn't sound like a displacement behavior. It's simply to extreme. If it was a displacement behvior, removing the conflict would remove the behavior. Displacement behaviors can be modified with positive training to the point of becoming extinguished, or even extinguished with correction.

I'd be very interested in seeing video. 

Can you post a link to the previous thread? I don't want to repeat suggestions here that have already be tried, but I do have some ideas.


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## Anne Vaini

Can you run the dog on a treadmill?

I had a crazy-barker dog. Barked through a shock collar. I taught him to run on a treadmill. Then I set up the situation that was causing the most problem - visitors. He barked and I put him on the treadmill. If he kept barking, I turned it up! He was running at 6 - 9 mph to end the barking. The barking at visitors was extinguished quickly! :twisted:

Is it possible to set up a situation where this dog can see the others out the window. He starts to spin, you put him on the treadmill and have him run hard and fast. When you think he's chilled out, let him down. If he starts to spin, put him back on the treadmill.

If this modifies the behavior in this circumstance, you'll know whether or not the behavior can be modified through training. Otherwise, you'll know that medications are the next option to try.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

I have always written these dogs off as nuts. Basically what I think is that it is an inability to inhibit, along with low frustration thresholds and some sort of inner ear kinda thing.

Only gets worse, and what is the point of wasting time, when you didn't spend good money to get a dog that pisses you off.


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## Julia Norton VMD

There is definitely a frustration aspect since even a visual of the other dogs can start it up. I considered a treadmill but suspect the only option would be another dog that would play until she dropped. My husband would prob divorce me. Separation helps but not entirely and I don't think I can completely separate her w/out isolation of her or the other dogs. I tried her w the other dogs today. They played for a while but the minute they stopped she began staring/chasing the tail. Only a minute not engaged and it starts up. Understandably I don't want 10 yrs of this. We tried clomicalm-did not work,but perhaps a higher dose. I am trying a combo of clomicalm/phenobarb-too early to see if it works. I will try to tape this weekend and post.


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## todd pavlus

Even still, she is still a pup and if the meds. work, that's along time of being medicated and administering pills. She would do good on farm with no animals or neighbors.


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## Anne Vaini

Clomiparimine (Clomicalm) doesn't have a consistent sedative effect - the dog may be may or less affected each time it is medicated. I'm not a huge fan of clomicalm at the moment. I have a grooming dog that is a perfect example - sometimes he is dopey, sometimes agitated. I asked them to stop giving clomicalm and the dog has been much more predictable and therefore eaiser to handle since. When I was looking into medication for an irreversible behavior problem, the vet I was working with pointed out the inconsistent effect of clomicalm and did not recommend its use. In your case, because the behavior problem is NOT aggression (as it is in the two dogs I mentioned above), it might be an option with the understanding that some days will be better than others.

I would go for a high dose of benadryl for it's sedative effect and also for it's anti-anxiety/anti-depressant effect. Benadryl is similar to Prozac in structure and function but isn't widely used for this purpose because of the drowsiness side effect. I'm guessing you wouldn't mind have a sleepy dog for a day.  I am not in favor of consistent use of a sedative in order to manage a behavior problem. I AM in favor of using medication as a piece of the puzzle to solve behavior problems. I AM in favor of using medication to give the owner a much-needed break. Most people don't think clearly when frustrated!

This is about all I remember off the top of my head. It's been a while. I'll see about digging up those studies tonight and see if there is anything else that might be helpful.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

I would dock the tail or invest in an e-collar, and take the reward aspect out of the nutters life.

Anni, nice reading comprehension, she's a vet. LOL


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## Anne Vaini

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Anni, nice reading comprehension, she's a vet. LOL


Nice spelling, Jeff, it's an "e." :twisted:


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## Steve Strom

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> You could always dock the dang thing, nothing to chase.


In all seriousness, is there any reason this would'nt be worth trying?


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## Sheena Tarrant

Steve Strom said:


> In all seriousness, is there any reason this would'nt be worth trying?


The dog would likely manifest with a different behavior, because the tail itself is not actually the source of the problem. Might start chewing its flanks, or foot, or doing back flips, or something even less desirable. 

Not very helpful, but you could always buy your dog a puppy with more energy than she has to keep her mind occupied at all times. 

Good luck.


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## Michelle Reusser

I'm with Jeff, write it off as a nutbag and get one without a mental malfunction. This isn't a "sound" dog and should be repaced by the breeder. I'm curious what the pedigree is...


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## Daryl Ehret

_"I am not in favor of consistent use of a sedative in order to manage a behavior problem. I AM in favor of using medication as a piece of the puzzle to solve behavior problems."_

The thing is, of all the studies I've found, the best results _that have ever been obtained_, never 'solved' the problem per se, rather than simply reduced it's frequency of expression, and involving the use of medication in conjunction with behavior modification. Where, meds _and therapy _could only improve about half the dogs, and of those half, only reducing the behavior by as much as 50%.

I don't quite buy the attribution to heredity either. Certain behaviors can tend to express themselves in different breeds, but it doesn't mean the behavior is genetic. It's said that gsd's tend to chase tails, dobies tend to bite flanks, etc. causing reason to believe that it may run in families, but the fact is, many among the families will never express an OCD behavior. Now that tail docking is prohibited in Europe (?) perhaps you might see a few more dobies biting tails, rather than their flanks. Humans don't have tails to chase (at least in that sense), but supposedly we have a much higher rate of OCD behaviors in our species population than compared to dogs, estimated 2-3%. We express our urges with whatever nature has given us, using what behaviors have brought prior satisfaction, and ultimately strengthen the neurological pathways of the behavior through repetition.

What I personally believe the condition is most related to, is neurological development (fueled by glands), and precisely why behavior modification is proven to be crucial with the accompaniment of the drugs, for the best possible results known to date. Those results incidently involved a treatment period of only four weeks, a less prolonged period than the typical 12 weeks or more, employed of most other studies.

I had an incident a few years ago, by a DVM (retired behaviorist) who bought one of my dogs, and the behavior developed. You're not a behaviorist are you? I've never before or since had a tail chaser, but If I had the chance, I'd take the opportunity and try to develop a better solution than clomiparimine, which is the best the "experts" have come up with in the last two decades, with little to no progress since.


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## Al Curbow

I'd leash the dog every second it was out of the crate. I'd go around a million dogs and work on focus. Medicating is just masking the behaviour, if you're lazy it won't get better, if you're not at least you'll know if it rides the short bus. I'd exersize the hell out of the dog too. Teach the dog spinning/tail chasing is not allowed. On a leash the dog can't chase it's tail. I'd use electric to proof it once the pup knows that you don't want it tail chasing. I'd also bet that the dog doesn't get enough exersize. I never had a tail chaser but if i did i'd have to stop it right away, it would make me crazy, lol. Don't medicate it, train it!


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## Julia Norton VMD

My impression is that when run w a friends dog for several hours she is better. However I can run her hard for an hour and she will come back and spin around the other dogs. My work schedule is light but she would have to take up much of the day in order to exercise her constantly. I agree the clomicalm helps but not consistently. Dr Dodman at Tufts is researching these behaviors and has had success w clomicalm and phenobarb combined so I have added that. Too soon yet to see if it helps. The problem from a management issue is that if she even sees the other dogs thru a door it can trigger the behavior. Also if my son(the early riser) puts her in the yard when it is dark she barks insanely waking everyone(prob neighbors too) up. He now has to go w her. She does not do this w the dogs. I figure this is prob anxiety related. I may try rotating w my ancient terrier because she seems less stimulated by her than by the 2 big dogs. Otherwise I may have to go out w her everytime. Unfortunately my ability to give everyone reasonable house time may be stretched by constant rotating. W respect to genetics I think these things are polygenetic so hard to follow. Also in a ver quiet household she may never have demonstrated this. However in people a lot of mental health issues run in families. I can think of a child we know, eating reduces when stressed, parents have diff getting wt on her, aunt has the same problem. Has a sister that is fine but younger brother has a very soft personality for a 6yr old boy, showing some anxiety issues as well. We are going to try meds to break cycle for a few weeks and see how goes and contact the breeder if we can't manage. However we have been dealing w since she was 15-16 wks and got her at 12 wks.

y


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## Al Curbow

Only hear what you want to hear? lol Take the time to correct the spinning, leash and focus


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## brad robert

I liked what AL said leash it, saturate around unfamiliar dogs use meal times around other dogs for focus on you or dont eat simple(do it day after day it will catch on) get tough because the dog sounds like you are ready to give up or put it down so use firmer methods what have you got to lose the dog getting better?

Maybe teach the off command to teach dog to control it self and latter once you know the dog gets it then e collar it i know alot of trainers only like using e collars as last resort so I think this fits the bill.


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## Julia Norton VMD

Ok, so she is out of heat and the behavior has decreased to a more workable level. She is going out separately since she is worse in the yard. Now lets say she sees the other dog in the crate and begins to spin. Should I distract and reinforce sitting for a reward. Also how much exercise do most of you do on an individual basis. She gets a serious active hour daily at least 5 days a week. However even after a busy day she winds up at the sight of the other dogs. She is off meds at this point.


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## Al Curbow

How old is this dog again?


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## Anne Vaini

Julia, have you ever corrected the dog for spinning?


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## Konnie Hein

Feb 28:


Julia Norton VMD said:


> We are going to try meds to break cycle for a few weeks and see how goes and contact the breeder if we can't manage.


Today:


Julia Norton VMD said:


> She is off meds at this point.


I'm confused. Is she on meds or not? My impression is that you have a dog with a serious problem and you've been dabbling in this-or-that to fix it, hoping for a quick fix. There probably isn't a quick fix (other than euthanasia). This behavior has been going on for months and it might take months to fix. Personally, I'd lean towards what Al is describing. Teach this dog a behavior incompatible with spinning. Put this dog on a leash and leash her to you every time she's out of the crate. Show her the alternate way to deal with her obsession/anxiety when the trigger occurs by giving the command for the incompatible behavior you've already taught in the first step. Whether you use corrections or positive reinforcement to accomplish this is up to you and your personal beliefs. 

The longer this goes on, the harder it will be to fix, if it even can be fixed at this point. Perhaps the best thing _would _be to re-home the dog at this point, with somebody who has the time and gumption to really nip this thing in the bud.


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## Brigita Brinac

Hi Julia

Just my .02 worth. I've seen this several times over the years with a few GSD's and several Malinois.

IMO and based on talking to other breeders and trainers...it's a neurotic behavior from a genetic component. For instance there is a dog (long gone) who was an exceptional worker and producer.....5, 6 generations later he is still 'producing' the tail chasing/mutilating trait.

I currently know of a GSD--one heck of a working dog...but he does the same...you can do all the exercise, training, Ob, Focus work...but as soon as he's not on a leash or unsupervised ie., kennel, crate....he spins and really injures his tail. The owners have tried everything...nothing worked. Unfortunately he's been bred a handful of times and several pups from each litter had this same 'trait' by the time they were 8 wks old.

My advice is to spay/neuter the dog firstly; as I firmly believe it is a genetic trait. IF it only happens when in close proximity to other dogs...have you thought about 'extinction' of this trait (w/the help of a proficient trainer of course)...I'm talking about e-collar....and this may take longer as the dog has already developed the 'habit'. If it's genetic...There's little improvement you can do...If for some reason, the dog reacts to other dogs like this due to environmental reasons, then you may be able to work with it to a point where the dog actually 'tolerates' other canines.

Anyways, just some suggestions. 

Good Luck

Brigita


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## Julia Norton VMD

I just mpulled her off meds as she was on for a month and I did not see a significant improvement. She is fine w me away from other dogs but if crated in the vicinity of the others I come back to find her tail damp. I am trying to keep her w me all the time but then the other dogs need to be confined to the other end of the house. And yes I am planning on spaying her in a few weeks. I have been getting her to focus and sit quietly in front of the other dog' s when they are crated but wouldn't dare put her in the yard w them , thats when she is at her worst. I am reluctant to go to e collar or a punishment approach because the stress may worsen the problem. I think I can minimze the problem by lifestyle changes but don't think it can be entirely eliminated since she started this at 15 wks. So for now she goes everywhere w me but this may be diff come the summer. I may need to increase work hours since my husband works for an investment firm. If the market continues to go down his job will not be safe. I'll let everyone know how the next month goes.


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## Anne Vaini

Julia Norton VMD said:


> I am reluctant to go to e collar or a punishment approach because the stress may worsen the problem.


*And she's NOT stressed out now?*

You'll have to have all the structure and control in place before going to this approach. Do what Al says!

From what I remember, there's been some manipulation of the situation, but not enough to eliminate if the problem responds to behavior modification.

You need to know this before going to correction. It's unfair to correct a dog for a behavior that it cannot control. If the dog cannot control the behavior, then it is YOUR job to control the behavior.

Again - back to what Al says. Even if you're using medication, you need to break the cycle of the behavior. This is a good way to do it.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

I told you guys vets were kinda dumb, but NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.
LOL


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## ann schnerre

just a different "mindset" jeff. i mean, they have to pass biochemistry to even get into vet school, so they must know SOMETHING  haha


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## James Degale

Stick the dog on a leash and correct her everytime she spins. Do this with the other dogs present. 

1 hour a day for a working GSD is not enough exercise. 

You MUST walk and exercise the pack together. The influence of other dogs is crucial. Sounds like she gets preferential treatment, inadvertantly maybe because of her problem, but this leads to more issues. 

Meds don't work for specific behavioural issues. 

Be honest with yourself. This dog needs consistent work and quite a bit of it by the sounds of it. If ytou are not up to it rehome. A point to note, behavioural problems improve with age.


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## Michelle Reusser

Seriously folks? I said send it back but in all honesty, the breeder will probably just put it down, save the shipping fee and euth the nutter and call it good. We can't save em all people! 

Hmm waste $ spaying, medicating, training not to mention the mental strain on the owners/marriage.

Put the dog down so there are no worries about this continuing or being passed on, via this dog at least. There are too many"normal" dogs that don't want to kill their tails out there, to waste all of this energy/money.


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## ann schnerre

Michelle Kehoe said:


> Seriously folks? I said send it back but in all honesty, the breeder will probably just put it down, save the shipping fee and euth the nutter and call it good. We can't save em all people!
> 
> Hmm waste $ spaying, medicating, training not to mention the mental strain on the owners/marriage.
> 
> Put the dog down so there are no worries about this continuing or being passed on, via this dog at least. There are too many"normal" dogs that don't want to kill their tails out there, to waste all of this energy/money.


a breath of fresh air, and it's not from jeff!!! 

i tend to agree michelle. on a number of levels this dog may be best served by euthanasia. like my dear ex used to say "why ride a bull when there's all kinds of good saddle horses out there?"


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## Connie Sutherland

Well, I pretty much agree, from a slightly different POV. 

Suppose you're crazy about such a dog and money is no object?

Well, a dog with this affliction is not a happy dog, free of anxiety, no matter what the trigger(s). JMO.

This isn't a try-this-try-that-work-on-it-15-minutes-a-day kind of thing, and barring a handler who has the time and willingness to really address it almost full-time, now (actually long before now), yes, I too would say PTS.


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## Al Curbow

Sorry Michelle but this doesn't sound un-fixable. It's very easy to tell someone to euthanize their dog over the web. She's here learning, this can be fixed, this is where you can see if you're a trainer or not, how your timing is, how to really read a dog etc. Anybody can train a zero issue dog with good drives,


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## Connie Sutherland

Al Curbow said:


> Sorry Michelle but this doesn't sound un-fixable. It's very easy to tell someone to euthanize their dog over the web. She's here learning, this can be fixed, this is where you can see if you're a trainer or not, how your timing is, how to really read a dog etc. Anybody can train a zero issue dog with good drives,


I don't think it's unfixable either, Al. I think I could fix it. I think you could fix it. I think it would take some concerted effort for a while.

But this has been been going on at least since last October. 

My point was


Connie Sutherland said:


> ... This isn't a try-this-try-that-work-on-it-15-minutes-a-day kind of thing, and barring a handler who has the time and willingness to really address it almost full-time, now (actually long before now), yes, I too would say PTS.


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## ann schnerre

and i want to go on the record (FWIW) that it may not be "unfixable"; it just seems that julie would rather try drugs than time. drugs are evidently not working so well, time seems to be an issue, and with an unwillingness to devote time, well, what's the best thing for everyone?


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## ann schnerre

and i want to go on the record (FWIW) that it may not be "unfixable"; it just seems that julie would rather try drugs than time. drugs are evidently not working so well, time seems to be an issue, and with an unwillingness to devote time, well, what's the best thing for everyone? 

therefore, i'm with michelle. sad as it may be short-term.


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## Connie Sutherland

ann freier said:


> .... an unwillingness to devote time, well, what's the best thing for everyone?


Or maybe, to be fair, inability. 

Either way, though ...... 5 months or so of no progress isn't good, and bodes ill for the dog's future well-being.

And I'm strictly on the side of the dog, if there are sides. I see the thread, I read the posts, and what I conclude is that this dog's problems are not going to be solved with this owner. These things happen.


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## Al Curbow

The best thing in that case is to rehome the dog to someone willing to take the time i guess.


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## Connie Sutherland

Al Curbow said:


> The best thing in that case is to rehome the dog to someone willing to take the time i guess.


Yes.


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## Daryl Ehret

I'd really like to see someone develop a basic protocol for this sort of issue. Veterinary medicine and all scientific studies I've seen regarding it, always turn to meds, and always with little or no results. The best results have come from instances where behavior modification accompanies the medical treatment. Not saying the meds don't have their place, because they potentially can assist the behavior training better than the training by itself. But, kind of like quitting smoking, the perscription may help the chemical addiction, but not fix the neurophysiological habit.


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## Connie Sutherland

Daryl Ehret said:


> I'd really like to see someone develop a basic protocol for this sort of issue. Veterinary medicine and all scientific studies I've seen regarding it, always turn to meds, and always with little or no results. The best results have come from instances where behavior modification accompanies the medical treatment. Not saying the meds don't have their place, because they potentially can assist the behavior training better than the training by itself. But, kind of like quitting smoking, the perscription may help the chemical addiction, but not fix the neurophysiological habit.


I wish there could be too, but such a protocol will never be able to be prescribed sight-unseen. 

My observations have been like yours, with regard to meds alone. Not that I have personally known dozens of such dogs, but I'm old (39) and sheer number of years around dogs means that I have known a few. :lol:


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## Daryl Ehret

I'd only heard of the one from my own breeding, so less than 1% anyway, and was not informed in any timely manner so that I could advise regarding the situation, until 2 or 3 months after a medication-only method was applied (accompanied by 16+ hrs crating per day). Enough to be upset about seeing another DMV doing deja vu about it.

I suppose the instances are rare enough that it happens, but when something is proven to be ineffective with decades research, _that means you're supposed to try a different approach!_


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Well Dodman (Nicholas) generally goes for behavior modification with a drug protocol. My 10 year old GSD was not anxiety ridden until she had her first heat cycle. With each cycle she got progressively worse. I finally spayed her and got about 80-85% of the dog I had before. The other thing that concerns me is that she has kids. Good luck trying to explain to a kid that since doggie wasn't perfect we "euthanized" it. Kid thinks "killed." I don't see how you use an e-collar with anxiety but I readily admit, they're not my cup of tea and in this case I would also assume it would make her worse. I always look at diet and training. I like Konnie's suggestion. I'm curious as to why she is so dog fixated but understand that the triggers can change and this is an underlying organic issue. I wonder if the owner is comfortable with drug therapy [that's what she knows and has been taught] and is not as comfortable with training. Does it become a pent up drive/frustration that she doesn't have an outlet for other than spin/chase/mutilate? Why not when she's like this give her something to release the drive through such as tug, obedience/marker/reward, etc. Its like she goes into overload at the sight of the dogs. I don't know, I'd let her see the dog and then instantly engage her and give her something else to do. 


Terrasita


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## Julia Norton VMD

Well here is an update. She is a week out of heat and the tail chasing is about 90% reduced. So everyone can yell about a training issue but hormones are clearly playing a huge role. Obviously I am going to spay her. That said she has had far more issues than we expected. I've had rotties since I was a teenager (a long time ago)and have never encountered these kind of neuroses. Hopefully spaying will make things more manageable.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: I'd really like to see someone develop a basic protocol for this sort of issue. Veterinary medicine and all scientific studies I've seen regarding it, always turn to meds, and always with little or no results.

Here ya go. LOL http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BWE1tH93G9U

Quote: Well here is an update. She is a week out of heat and the tail chasing is about 90% reduced. So everyone can yell about a training issue but hormones are clearly playing a huge role.

What do we know, right ??? You allowed this behavior to happen in the first place. AND you did not punish this behavior. Soda PoP did this one time and I booted her for it. I have had crate spinners, and I punished them and they stopped. I can tell you, with all the Mals in Mondio how many spin in their crates like idiots. So...............what do we know right ???

Also, I have a completely separate question. VMD is this just a weird variation of DVM ???? Just asking.


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## Anne Vaini

Julia Norton VMD said:


> Well here is an update. She is a week out of heat and the tail chasing is about 90% reduced. So everyone can yell about a training issue but hormones are clearly playing a huge role. Obviously I am going to spay her. That said she has had far more issues than we expected. I've had rotties since I was a teenager (a long time ago)and have never encountered these kind of neuroses. Hopefully spaying will make things more manageable.


I don't think this could be defined as a neurosis. And I'm hoping not, as neurosis is irreversible. 

If I remember correctly, in true neurosis, there is no external trigger or stimulus. Neurosis is CAUSED by external stimulus, however. Neurosis is the only situation in which a dog "snaps" or "turns." I believe there are only 3 know causes - isolation neurosis, punishment neurosis and ... I think it is called discernment neruosis or something like that. Much of this is detailed in Pavlov's later work with dogs. Pavlov determined neurosis to be irreversible.

Umm.. yeah. I'm probably splitting hairs here.

I'm still hoping for video of the behavior.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Well, its not a GSD vs. Rottie issue. I've had GSD Bitches my entire life and Teva was the first with hormone induced anxiety and I didn't get it all figured out until I spoke with a person who had herding briards who had gone through the same thing. She also recommended that you don't spay close to an upcoming heat cycle. So, not a breed issue, but a selection issue. Sometimes we gamble and come up short. I'm also curious about the pedigree and to the others, how often does this sort of thing come up. 

Terrasita


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## Maren Bell Jones

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Also, I have a completely separate question. VMD is this just a weird variation of DVM ???? Just asking.


Most vet schools give their degrees as DVM (Doctor of Veterinary Medicine). I'm thinking she must have graduated from University of Pennsylvania, as they are the only school as far as I can remember that calls their degree VMD (Veterinary Medical Doctor). I don't know for sure, but it may come from a bit of a movement from being called veterinarians to veterinary doctors, which I honestly prefer. The "oh yeah, that's like a 2 year degree program, right?" like it's an associates degree gets old. :roll:


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## Anne Vaini

It's a UK thing too, right?


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## Maren Bell Jones

In the UK (and I think elsewhere like Australia's Murdoch and New Zealand's Massey), it's usually a 5 year program that you go straight from high school and you earn a Bachelors of Veterinary Medicine Degree (BVetMed) or something similar. American vet med schools are like human med schools in that you have to have at least 2 years of undergrad (usually the full bachelors degree nowadays) before you start vet school, with the exception of a few 6 year combined programs.


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## Alyssa Myracle

Julia Norton VMD said:


> I just mpulled her off meds as she was on for a month and I did not see a significant improvement.


Not sure if meds work in dogs the way they work in humans... I guess that'd be your area of expertise.
If they do though, a month isn't nearly long enough to determine whether or not medication is working.

In humans, at least, medications take over a month to even build in the bloodstream to a theraputic level, and then a few more weeks to really begin working on the brain chemistry. Most Psychiatrists encourage a person to give a medication at least three months before they decide it isn't working correctly. It takes at least that long to know.


All that aside, I'm not really reading of any training approach to the problem. Exercise is good, and an important componant, however, an hour a day probably isn't nearly enough, and it's still not the only thing that needs to be done to correct the problem.

Ultimately, I'm reading a lot of excuses. It's easy to be overwhelmed. But that doesn't help the dog. I agree with the others- rehome or PTS. The dog ain't happy, you ain't happy. And it doesn't sound like much is being done to really change the situation.


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## Kristina Senter

I may have missed this somewhere in the thread previously, but have you tried directly, physically correcting the behavior?


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## Connie Sutherland

Julia Norton VMD said:


> Well here is an update. She is a week out of heat and the tail chasing is about 90% reduced. So everyone can yell about a training issue but hormones are clearly playing a huge role.


This started at least five months ago. (This isn't the first thread.)

I'm glad that she has some relief. I don't see it as something that has now become a non-issue. Do you?


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