# Soft tissue injury in hind leg



## Hunter Allred

Katya has something bad going on in a hind leg. Hard launches she's yelp and favor it. She seems to recover quickly (30 seconds or so), but despite a lengthy period of avoiding any strain on the leg its not getting better.. noticed her nails are all longer on that leg so I know she's not ever putting equal weight on both when running. Running never seems to trigger a yelp or visible pain, but jumping almost always does now. So, I'm getting ready to MRI her soon and find out whats going on... if there is a ligament tear like I fear, anyone have experience with surgery to correct? How much downtime, whether there was a full recovery, etc?


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## Alice Bezemer

Hunter Allred said:


> Katya has something bad going on in a hind leg. Hard launches she's yelp and favor it. She seems to recover quickly (30 seconds or so), but despite a lengthy period of avoiding any strain on the leg its not getting better.. noticed her nails are all longer on that leg so I know she's not ever putting equal weight on both when running. Running never seems to trigger a yelp or visible pain, but jumping almost always does now. So, I'm getting ready to MRI her soon and find out whats going on... if there is a ligament tear like I fear, anyone have experience with surgery to correct? How much downtime, whether there was a full recovery, etc?


Are you sure its the leg? Is there swelling or limping? Have you manipulated her leg to see if there is real pain in her leg? Reason I ask is the jump against run remark. When I see that I always start to worry aboit internal problems like a pyometra which will not show.for a long time but a first indicator is mostly when the female jumps and indicates pain which can at times look lile a leg injury.


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## Hunter Allred

Alice Bezemer said:


> Are you sure its the leg? Is there swelling or limping? Have you manipulated her leg to see if there is real pain in her leg? Reason I ask is the jump against run remark. When I see that I always start to worry aboit internal problems like a pyometra which will not show.for a long time but a first indicator is mostly when the female jumps and indicates pain which can at times look lile a leg injury.


There is no detectable swelling, and manipulating the joint by me or a club member who is a vet tech hasn't caused a response or shown any abnormal movement or play in the joint. The much longer nails on the leg she's favoring would make me say its definitely that leg.. and also after she does something to agitate it she will carry that leg off the ground for a few minutes.


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## Joby Becker

Hunter.
when you say period of avoiding strain, do you mean no running too for that time period..?


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## Hunter Allred

Joby Becker said:


> Hunter.
> when you say period of avoiding strain, do you mean no running too for that time period..?


To the very best of my ability yes


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## Eric Read

how long was "lengthy"? I went thru something like this a few years ago. One vet told me it was hip dysplasia, despite having xrays and very good hips only a few months previous. Once I showed xrays they changed their mind 

Then thought it was spasm on inside part of hip joint or possible CCL tear, but the only way to really know was to go in and look. Found another vet, thought possible ccl and I wasn't cutting her open to find out.

I had 3 months of crate rest, carrying her up and down stairs, no play, no running, leashed walks only on flat surfaces. That was it, it sucked. 

After that I slowly started doing easy, easy paced bike rides and slowly built. I actually started those in place of leashed walks after about 6 weeks because walking she always wanted to run out and come back, where an easy bike pace, easy trot, was very comfortable and easy for her.

at the 3 month point I started doing other stuff. She's better than ever today. Sounds similar. Could jump, but would yelp. Often wouldnt go up stairs. Would keep her her rear leg raised and wouldn't bear any weight on it. This would come and go, but never go away even after 2-3 weeks rest and very light activity.


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## Hunter Allred

Eric Read said:


> how long was "lengthy"? I went thru something like this a few years ago. One vet told me it was hip dysplasia, despite having xrays and very good hips only a few months previous. Once I showed xrays they changed their mind
> 
> Then thought it was spasm on inside part of hip joint or possible CCL tear, but the only way to really know was to go in and look. Found another vet, thought possible ccl and I wasn't cutting her open to find out.
> 
> I had 3 months of crate rest, carrying her up and down stairs, no play, no running, leashed walks only on flat surfaces. That was it, it sucked.
> 
> After that I slowly started doing easy, easy paced bike rides and slowly built. I actually started those in place of leashed walks after about 6 weeks because walking she always wanted to run out and come back, where an easy bike pace, easy trot, was very comfortable and easy for her.
> 
> at the 3 month point I started doing other stuff. She's better than ever today. Sounds similar. Could jump, but would yelp. Often wouldnt go up stairs. Would keep her her rear leg raised and wouldn't bear any weight on it. This would come and go, but never go away even after 2-3 weeks rest and very light activity.


we went a few months of strict rest (loading her in the car, out of the car, etc). It seemed to get better but then theres always a reoccurance... sometimes sooner, sometimes later... seeming to get more frequent though. 

She doesn't hesitate to go up or down steps. Its mostly jumping, or "launching" as in, if she were in a sit and I reward her with a ball. Haven't practices a trial jump or a-frame with her for 6 months.

She was penhipped about a year and a half ago, .26/.28 >90% percentile so its not hips.


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## Kadi Thingvall

Before doing an MRI I would take her to a chiropractor. Someone who is licensed (ie has actual training on animals). I've had my chiropractor diagnose more than one injury that my vet's response to was "rest and pain meds". Sometimes it was something out of alignment. Probably would have healed with my vets treatment also, but healed much faster when my chiro just put it back where it belonged. Other times she was able to pinpoint a soft tissue injury, there wasn't much she could do for the injury, but at least I knew what area needed to heal. And she was able to adjust everything my dog had thrown out of whack trying to favor the injured area.

I have a dog with a torn cruciate, and the symptoms are similar in terms of the favoring of the leg, but she didn't yelp when jumping. It was turning that caused her pain, moving forward either in a walk/trot/run or jumping didn't. 

If she is diagnosed with a cruciate injury before jumping into surgery I would spend some time researching whatever type of surgery they recommend, vs conservative management. There are some great success stories with CM, and some not so good ones, similar to the results of surgery.


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## Tiago Fontes

Hunter Allred said:


> Katya has something bad going on in a hind leg. Hard launches she's yelp and favor it. She seems to recover quickly (30 seconds or so), but despite a lengthy period of avoiding any strain on the leg its not getting better.. noticed her nails are all longer on that leg so I know she's not ever putting equal weight on both when running. Running never seems to trigger a yelp or visible pain, but jumping almost always does now. So, I'm getting ready to MRI her soon and find out whats going on... if there is a ligament tear like I fear, anyone have experience with surgery to correct? How much downtime, whether there was a full recovery, etc?



I would have her checked by a vet or an animal chiro (as per suggestion) and would start swimming her as conditioning. 

Good luck and keep us updated.


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## Meg O'Donovan

Try to find a vet who is also a chiropractor. I've got one and she works wonders for my old dog.


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## Hunter Allred

Tiago Fontes said:


> I would have her checked by a vet or an animal chiro (as per suggestion) and would start swimming her as conditioning.
> 
> Good luck and keep us updated.


We've actually been doing a lot of swimming already to keep her fit, burn energy, and let the leg heal

I'll look around for a chiro


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## Tiago Fontes

Hunter Allred said:


> We've actually been doing a lot of swimming already to keep her fit, burn energy, and let the leg heal
> 
> I'll look around for a chiro


Let us know what has been diagnosed. 

Good luck. Probably nothing serious.


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## Hunter Allred

Vet feels some play in her knee, things a partial cruciate tear. Going in this morning for cold laser therapy... getting a custom articulating brace made as well.

Anyone have cold laser experience? I hear good things but all I can think about are those laser hair-stimulating snake oil adds in airplane sky mall magazines


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## Tiago Fontes

Hunter Allred said:


> Vet feels some play in her knee, things a partial cruciate tear. Going in this morning for cold laser therapy... getting a custom articulating brace made as well.
> 
> Anyone have cold laser experience? I hear good things but all I can think about are those laser hair-stimulating snake oil adds in airplane sky mall magazines


What symptoms did she develop? A bit more information than what was provided initially. 

Does it manifest only in launches or overall jumping?


Regards


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## Hunter Allred

Tiago Fontes said:


> What symptoms did she develop? A bit more information than what was provided initially.
> 
> Does it manifest only in launches or overall jumping?
> 
> 
> Regards


Only when she pushes forward hard... that can be a jump, that can be chasing vigorously a ball rolling on the ground in a straight line. That make sense?

Symptoms are immediately yelp after she pushes off the leg, favoring the leg for ~1 minute, then resumes normal behavior. Never shows pain from manipulating joints and she is not one to hide discomfort. Vet thinks the pain is when the patella slips out of whack from the distraction caused by a partial ligament tear.


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## Tiago Fontes

Hunter Allred said:


> Only when she pushes forward hard... that can be a jump, that can be chasing vigorously a ball rolling on the ground in a straight line. That make sense?
> 
> Symptoms are immediately yelp after she pushes off the leg, favoring the leg for ~1 minute, then resumes normal behavior. Never shows pain from manipulating joints and she is not one to hide discomfort. Vet thinks the pain is when the patella slips out of whack from the distraction caused by a partial ligament tear.


Thanks. Hopefully it will heal fast. She's a nice dog.


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## Hunter Allred

Tiago Fontes said:


> Thanks. Hopefully it will heal fast. She's a nice dog.


Thanks!

she's getting fitted for a custom brace I believe, that the vet thinks we can still train in (and she trains her dobs with me sometimes so has a very good idea what training means for us). If none of the non-invasive procedures work then if need be we will go the surgical route.


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## Billie Fletcher

Elsie hurt a muscle in her leg, and was favouring it for a little while and ended up tightening up the muscles in one side of her back while compensating which was making her crab and she was curving her spine to one side. 

She was no exercise and anti-inflammatorys for the leg for 7 days, then restricted to on-lead/gentle exercise only (no scale walls, agility, lure coursing, ball chasing, wrestling off lead with big dogs etc.) for about 1.5 months. We see a lameness specialist vet and an osteo, who had us doing regular heat, massage and specific exercises to build up strength into the area and engaging the muscles that she wasn't using in her back. 

Her leg is good now, we're just on 3 months post-injury and have not seen any lameness and there is no pain in the affected area, and back to full training and competing. I still need to keep working on getting her to stretch her back out properly. Her movement is looking heaps nicer, no more crabbing woohoo!


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## Hunter Allred

Laser shades during this mornings treatment


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## Sue DiCero

If you do use a chiro, make sure that they are true certified chiro. Too many charlatans out there .


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## mel boschwitz

Hunter Allred said:


> Vet feels some play in her knee, things a partial cruciate tear. Going in this morning for cold laser therapy... getting a custom articulating brace made as well.
> 
> Anyone have cold laser experience? I hear good things but all I can think about are those laser hair-stimulating snake oil adds in airplane sky mall magazines


Hunter, we used cold laser on my dog that got the FCE a few weeks ago. He was almost completely paralyzed in back end when it happened. He was walking on his own after 2 treatments (4 days). Don't know if it's all a result of the cold laser but I am sure it didn't make it worse!

Good luck!


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## Sue DiCero

Are you still doing an MRI to double check physical findings?


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## Sarah Platts

Hunter Allred said:


> Anyone have cold laser experience?


I was a BIG skeptic when it was first suggested to me that it would do anything for my dog. There was such a dramatic difference after just one treatment that I went home and bought one on the Internet that night. It was a couple of thousand dollars but the results (as well as the savings in the cost of pain meds) made it cheap at the price.

I've used it on all my dogs for injury or arthritis treatments (suppose to work for ear infections too). I've used it on me, my family, and anyone else who needs it. I was on another list and that owner was having alot of issues with their working dog. She got one on my recommendation and had the same dramatic results. Really can't say enough good stuff about it but remember it works in conjunction with other treatment therapies such as rest and healing time.


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## Sue DiCero

You can also rent one


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## Hunter Allred

Which one did you buy?

What about http://vetrolaser.com/?gclid=CIe3rZPy_rwCFW9p7Aodv24ALQ#3094


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## Sarah Platts

Wow, a lot has changed in the years since I bought mine. The company no longer sells them but only repairs previously purchased units. 

My Class IV unit has two parts. A small box that controls the time and amount of energy, and there is a wand that I plug into the box that contains two 808nm and three 635nM beams. I dial in the amount of time and the amount of energy and do the treatment. 

I watched the video with the link and I noticed that the unit isn't on a timer. When I was doing my research and educating myself. it was pretty in-depth over nanometers and treatment times. When you do laser therapy, time is important. And it's cumulative. In other words, you do a treatment for X amount of time and that's it for the day whether you spend all that time on one area or split it up between several. Because of the type of head I use, I can't hold it over an area and let it sit but must continually 'paint' the target area. 
Other than those differences it seems that the unit indicated would be adequate for your needs. I sent an email off to the other handler that recently bought one to see what she got and any issues with it. The other thing I would add is that if you do any treatments on the head is to avoid the optic nerve. I angle the laser head so it's not hitting the optic nerve.


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## Hunter Allred

My vet said it "That thing is useless. Not strong enough to penetrate tissue. We use a Class 4 laser"

Damnit. Guess I should start saving lol


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## Eric Read

you do not need a class IV laser. The amount of joules necessary to initiate soft tissue healing can easily be achieved with a class III. 

and laser hasn't shown really any benefit over LED. Light is light, what's important is the wavelength (that dictates penetration, not the "power") and the amount of power ( dictates treatment time). Is it going to take you 30 seconds to do a treatment or 3 hours to deliver enough joules to an affected area?


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## Hunter Allred

Eric Read said:


> you do not need a class IV laser. The amount of joules necessary to initiate soft tissue healing can easily be achieved with a class III.
> 
> and laser hasn't shown really any benefit over LED. Light is light, what's important is the wavelength (that dictates penetration, not the "power") and the amount of power ( dictates treatment time). Is it going to take you 30 seconds to do a treatment or 3 hours to deliver enough joules to an affected area?


She also said "The less expensive ones are lower power which means more contact time. Some of them could take 2 hrs of treatment to accomplish what the better ones do in 10 minutes"


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## mel boschwitz

Hunter, our massage therapist recommends the vetrolaser. She's also a vet tech. It's a bit different then cold laser from the vets office but very effective. It's on my list of things to buy. Eventually.


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## Eric Read

Hunter Allred said:


> She also said "The less expensive ones are lower power which means more contact time. Some of them could take 2 hrs of treatment to accomplish what the better ones do in 10 minutes"


This is true, but there is more evidence coming every year that a longer treatment time might be better over a faster delivery of energy to the cells. How much is optimal? That's an answer I don't think has been found yet.

But for tissue healing, I would be looking at Class III with decent power and the right wavelengths. I don't think a IV gives any benefit over the other, but does introduce potential hazards and greatly increases price.


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## Sarah Platts

My friend bought her's from the same place I bought mine. 

This was the old site: http://www.coldlasers.com/

She loves her unit (also a class 4) so I guess that's what you should be angling toward. I had wondered about the class 3b units but some of the sites say they're garbage and others say they are just as good for general use for the lesser cost. I think part of the issue is that when I bought mine lasers were not in general use and usually only through a practioner's office because it is possible to do damage with one. But when the general public got involved they had to water it down so the idiots out there didn't kill Fido with their enthusiasm.

So it might be worth it to get the current treatments through your vet's office until you can save up enough to buy what you really need.


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## Sarah Platts

Eric Read said:


> This is true, but there is more evidence coming every year that a longer treatment time might be better over a faster delivery of energy to the cells. How much is optimal? That's an answer I don't think has been found yet.
> 
> But for tissue healing, I would be looking at Class III with decent power and the right wavelengths. I don't think a IV gives any benefit over the other, but does introduce potential hazards and greatly increases price.


Part of Hunter's issue is that I don't think this is a surface injury but more of a deep tissue problem. For that you could use a class 3 all day and still not get done what you need to do. Unless you get a unit with the right wavelength and power behind it you could be wasting time and money. For surface healing, I would agree with you.

Longer treatment times means there's less risk of screwing it up but the longer times also means you might be not doing effective treatment. I know that I would rather laser the dog for 1-2 minutes versus trying to do a 15 - 20 or 60 minute treatment. Cheaper might not necessarily mean bad but cheap doesn't mean it will do what you want. I would rather pay more for the right thing (or something with more than I need) because it gives me greater flexibilty over the long run. In the end you get what you pay for.


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## Eric Read

you can buy a sufficiently powered Class III laser that will penetrate every bit as much as a Class IV. many class IV's are pulsed and their peak power is enough to get them the rating, but their overall power isn't any greater. Many Class IV's if they are sufficiently powered can cause tissue damage if used too much. More recent studies are showing that a 5 or 10 ro 15 minute treatment time might be better than 30 seconds. many Class IV's are grossly overpriced as people who don't research get taken in with "power" when power has very little to do with the healing properties of light. 

Do your research, I think you'll find a Class III can provide everything you need at a much lower cost. If you think you need a class IV , again, do your research and make sure you're not paying for something that is not really there.


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## Sarah Platts

Eric Read said:


> Do your research, I think you'll find a Class III can provide everything you need at a much lower cost. If you think you need a class IV , again, do your research and make sure you're not paying for something that is not really there.


Could you please post some links to some vendors you feel have good class 3 and/or 4 laser units?


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## Eric Read

I think Thor makes a very nice class III. I don't look at 4 and haven't for a while. I don't even know what's out there. All I know is I have no use for one, or to spend that amount of cash to get a good one. They have a use, but not at a price I can afford. I can't imagine most others have 20-40K laying around for a continuous class IV that would give you a benefit over a decently powered class III


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## Sarah Platts

Hunter Allred said:


> My vet said it "That thing is useless. Not strong enough to penetrate tissue. We use a Class 4 laser"
> 
> Damnit. Guess I should start saving lol


After doing some reading between Class 3 (aka low level laser therapy) and Class 4 (aka high power theraputic laser) I would agree with your vet. 

this link describes it best: http://www.aetna.com/cpb/medical/data/300_399/0363.html

I'll have to do some internet crawling and see if I can find something I could recommend to you. I might be able to find you a site that sells reconditioned units which is what mine was. I think mine was around $2,500 when I bought it.

The Thor unit that was previously mention apprears (couldn't find out what class it was) but I consider 7K a bit steep in price and I sure wouldn't be buying one for that price either.


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## Eric Read

A submission by an insurance company to deny coverage, great unbiased source lol

All and has to do is Google class 3,vs 4 and they can read for days. I'd like to see what class 4,laser you got for 2500 bucks? The thor is 7 k because it has a lot of variability in what you can treat with it. Lasers aren't a one size fits all for treatment.


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## Sue DiCero

Do you do treatment prior to or until you know a definitive diagnosis?


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## Charles Lerner

It really sounds like a CCL injury. Sometimes they're only partially torn (but in a working dog they will almost certainly finish the tear soon). If your vet felt abnormal tibial thrust I would get it fixed surgically asap. The longer you wait, the less optimal the finished outcome will be. Best of luck.
Chuck


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## Hunter Allred

So... 3 weeks round about from the laser. No yelps since then. Almost don't want to post as I'd expect this might doom me to a yelp and limp the second I get home.

Slowly testing it mildly now


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## rick smith

that's good news to hear !


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## Noel Long

Hunter Allred said:


> So... 3 weeks round about from the laser. No yelps since then. Almost don't want to post as I'd expect this might doom me to a yelp and limp the second I get home.
> 
> Slowly testing it mildly now


Good news!! I was thinking iliopsoas strain. I was going to ask if she can "dance" on her hind legs. Sounds like she is on the path to healing, so never mind!


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