# Dirty teeth



## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

This past November I gave a nearly ready-to-certify dog to a friend whose certified USAR dog had just died in an unfortunate accident. I've only seen this dog two or three times since then and I feel she's keeping him in great shape (probably better shape than I was). However, this week I'm "babysitting" him while she is on vacation and I noticed his teeth are filthy. His molars are caked in gunk/tartar. While he lived with me, he was on a raw diet. His teeth were always sparkling white with no tarter or gunk build-up at all. My vet always remarked about how spectacular his teeth looked. That's certainly not the case any more. My friend feeds him Wellness (both dry and canned).

I just gave him a marrow bone, so we'll see if that cleans them up. I'm going to suggest she brush his teeth from now on. I know my vet charges an arm and a leg for tooth removal, which is something I'd prefer to avoid with my dogs. I'm sure she would too.

How do other kibble/canned feeders keep their dogs teeth clean? Do you brush them regularly or have the vet clean them or ?? I always gave my dogs marrow bones, but I know some folks are hesitant to do that because dogs can break teeth on them. I've personally never had that problem with my dogs. I'm too lazy to brush their teeth and the marrow bones seem to do a good job.


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## Sue DiCero (Sep 2, 2006)

Marrow Bones. Best thing. 

If there is no butcher, we get the raw, meaty ones from Publix.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Basically if you do teeth brushing, you have to do it either every day or every other day to have much effect, just like your own teeth. Once a week isn't really sufficient. There's some products out there you can add to their water or to their teeth, but I haven't personally tried them. 

Since I've gotten free food from Natura for the dogs since I'm a student rep and my hubby had to take a pay cut at work to avoid being laid off, we're reducing how much raw we are feeding to every other day instead of almost all raw (bigger meals of kibble, smaller meals of raw). If you can get a hold of raw lamb leg bones (one of the grass fed lamb producers at the farmers market gets me these for $1 a pound and they've still got a little meat on them), they are smaller and not as teeth damaging as beef bones. They don't last quite as long, which is okay too.


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## Anna Kasho (Jan 16, 2008)

In my experience, pork neck bones are just right for this. I'm talking about the sawed lengthwise and into 4 chunks, supermarket kind. They are edible, crunch up pretty well, much easier than marrow bones, so aren't as likely to break teeth. You could probably get away with kibble plus a few bones a couple times a week. It's worked for a few dogs that I know...

I never brush my dogs' teeth. That is the absolute limit of what I'm willing to go through on their account, LOL. With the older dogs I took in, I usually do an initial cleaning/descaling myself, and let them maintain it. 

Will he let you scrape his teeth with a dental pick?


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Anna Kasho said:


> With the older dogs I took in, I usually do an initial cleaning/descaling myself, and let them maintain it.
> 
> Will he let you scrape his teeth with a dental pick?


I've found out from class that doing a scaling without sedation is cosmetic only because you can't get under gum line where the problem really is. Plus with a professional dental, they polish the teeth afterwards, which is important for not getting tiny little cracks and grooves in the enamel that you can't see, which further traps bacteria. There was a recent article in the Whole Dog Journal on this subject that was pretty interesting.


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## David Scholes (Jul 12, 2008)

Never had a dog out live it's teeth or noticed any need to clean. I always just provide bones to chew on. 

David


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## Anna Kasho (Jan 16, 2008)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> I've found out from class that doing a scaling without sedation is cosmetic only because you can't get under gum line where the problem really is. Plus with a professional dental, they polish the teeth afterwards, which is important for not getting tiny little cracks and grooves in the enamel that you can't see, which further traps bacteria. There was a recent article in the Whole Dog Journal on this subject that was pretty interesting.


Riiiight... so what did they say about the natural descaling via bones in raw food, it's effectiveness at removing the problem under the gumline and the resulting chips and cracks in the enamel? 

Have a hard time believing that removing loads of plaque and crap is "cosmetic only". The professional dental guys have a profit at stake here, I would think?


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

David Scholes said:


> Never had a dog out live it's teeth or noticed any need to clean. I always just provide bones to chew on.
> 
> David


I don't know about dogs outliving their teeth, but at several hundred bucks a tooth for removal, I'd prefer to have them keep every single tooth! :-D


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Anna Kasho said:


> Riiiight... so what did they say about the natural descaling via bones in raw food, it's effectiveness at removing the problem under the gumline and the resulting chips and cracks in the enamel?
> 
> Have a hard time believing that removing loads of plaque and crap is "cosmetic only". The professional dental guys have a profit at stake here, I would think?


I've heard what Maren said before and I wondered the same thing, Anna. I've chipped some of the stuff off a dog's teeth with my fingernail before. It came right off. The stuff on this dog's teeth doesn't seem to come off as easily.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Removing plaque/tartar isn't just cosmetic. The crust pushes against the gumline creating inflammation. Scale off the tartar and the gums can heal. I've had no problems scaling my dogs teeth and getting under the gumline. If one of my dog's developed pockets under the gumline, there's not much I could do about it. But I can prevent it from happening.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

It's cosmetic in the sense that it gives a person a false sense of security that "oh, the buildup of tartar looks like it's now gone, so it's okay now." All the scalers I've ever seen were metal, which would be considerably harder than even the shaft of a hard weight bearing bone (which isn't a bad idea to avoid either). And like I said, they polish the teeth afterwards to minimize the scraping on the enamel.

And remember, I don't go and get my dog's teeth done either because they are always in good shape from a raw diet. I'm speaking more for the average kibble fed dog in which they've done studies showing that like 85% of dogs have significant periodontal disease by age 3.  This is why scaling them yourself once there's significant buildup isn't going to be any more than just cosmetic on the crown and not in the pocket between the gum and the root (called the subgingival space). If the bacteria keep munching downward and end up destroying the dentin (which is much softer than the enamel or cementum) or especially the periodontal ligament, all of which you're not going to be able to physically reach without sedating the dog, the dog's going to be in pain (may be grumpy, withdrawn, not wanting ot eat as much or do bite/retrieve work) and you may lose the tooth. Does that make sense?












Anna, a vet's office is a business, just like your eye doctor, dentist, and private practice physician is also a business and we do have bills to pay, after all. Your dentist recommends coming in every six months, so I don't know why there's a perception we're trying to price gouge you all with once a year dental prophylaxis. I don't have dental insurance, so it costs me about $80 for just a basic cleaning by the hygienist and check up by the dentist and over $100 (can't remember exactly how much) for the bite wing x-rays. So around $300 for sedation, bloodwork, x-rays, cleaning, and polishing is pretty fair. And doing a dental on a dog takes significantly longer time than a cleaning by your dentist, unless you haven't been to the dentist in 5 years or something. I got my teeth cleaned just a few weeks ago and I was discussing this with my dentist. She agreed with me on the price.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> There was a recent article in the Whole Dog Journal on this subject that was pretty interesting.


An informative article from a publication that does _not_ lend itself to fattening health-professional wallets unnecessarily, IMHO. 


Experience has taught me not to put much stock in the reply of "Let's just watch it" from my GP vet.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

I am pondering right now the wisdom of agreeing with the GP vet who said "Let's just keep an eye on it" about a senior I have. 

He has not-great breath, and my experience is that a healthy dog on raw food doesn't have objectionable breath. Something makes it smelly, whether it's farther inside the dog or in the mouth.

He had a lifetime of kibble, I'm sure, but all the more reason to suspect his teeth and gums.

sigh

Trying to decide whether I need to insist on a real dental exam. It's nothing like some breath I have encountered in dogs, but still ....

I guess I will ask about cost and get all the info about anesthesia, etc.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Connie, yeah, that sounds like something to get looked at. Some of the older generation vets don't push the dental thing as much and have too much of a wait and see approach, IMHO. The dogs can't drive themselves to the dentist and can't tell us how much it hurts, so being proactive is probably the safest thing to do. 

In fact, my parent's dog (who used to be my dog) has a tooth that really needs to come out since it's fractured and is clearly dying (it's a weird greenish gray color). But they are worried about the anesthesia. Most people are troubled by the anesthesia because they've heard the "my cousin's boyfriend's best friend's sister's dog died while anesthesia." It is anesthesia and there are risks, but fortunately, management under anesthesia has improved tremendously. Especially since more vets are getting the okay from clients to have pre-anesthesia blood work, good monitoring, and an IV catheter in for fluids for maintaining blood pressure (they tend to go hypotensive when kept under anesthesia so that the kidneys and liver don't auto perfuse with blood as well). For an in depth dental procedure like an extraction, a good monitoring and an IV catheter is a must IMHO, just like it would be if you had your own teeth extracted. If something goes wrong on the table, it's a lot easier to fix if you've already got fluids going and if the patient is intubated. The problem is, clients are expecting this level of care, but they just don't want to pay for it. :roll:

Forgot to add...if you're REALLY strapped for cash and have to choose between pre-anesthesia blood work and IV fluids during a sedation/general anesthesia procedure, pick the IV fluids. That seems to be the general wisdom I've seen on the VIN forums.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Yes, I would expect and demand all of that care, particularly anesthesia management, and even more for a bracheocephalic dog --- so I have to find out if I can pay for it.

I agree with your post absolutely.

Amd I may have to consider your ETA: _Forgot to add...if you're REALLY strapped for cash and have to choose between pre-anesthesia blood work and IV fluids during a sedation/general anesthesia procedure, pick the IV fluids._


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

What do you think about seeking out a dental vet?

Also, think I should ask for x-rays under anesthesia, or what, as the first source of info?


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

I believe the x-rays are done at some point before the cleaning begins, just like at the human dentist. It may be under anesthesia for more fractious animals and can be looked at almost instantly with digital radiography. Finding a board certified specialist is never a bad idea, as general practitioners are generally limited to what they can learn from continuing education classes. Good vets, just like good physicians, know when to refer out. Here's the site for the board certified diplomates of the American Veterinary Dental College:

http://www.avdc-dms.org/dms/diplomates.cfm

Also on their site, I saw they have a statement about scaling without anesthesia.



> In the United States and Canada, only licensed veterinarians can practice veterinary medicine. Veterinary medicine includes veterinary surgery, medicine and dentistry. Anyone providing dental services other than a licensed veterinarian, or a supervised and trained veterinary technician, is practicing veterinary medicine without a license and shall be subject to criminal charges.
> 
> This position statement addresses dental scaling procedures performed on pets without anesthesia, often by individuals untrained in veterinary dental techniques. Although the term “Anesthesia-Free Dentistry” has been used in this context, AVDC prefers to use the more accurate term Non-Professional Dental Scaling (NPDS) to describe this combination.


It goes into the reasoning further (some of which I've already addressed) here:

http://www.avdc.org/Dental_Scaling_Without_Anesthesia.pdf


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Thanks.

As I expected, there isn't one within 75 miles of me.


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

So, Maren, you would recommend kibble-feeders to have their dogs' teeth cleaned every 6 months? Or every year or?

Just trying to get a handle on what to recommend to the current owner of the dog I mentioned in the original post.

Thanks.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Awww, bummer, Connie. Maybe your regular vet can make some recommendations of others in the area?

Konnie, It's going to be an individual thing, just like in humans. Some breeds and individuals are more prone to developing tartar, like small and toy breeds who have the same number of teeth, but a shorter in proportion jaw. But it seems the general guidelines recommend once a year. On another note, anyone ever tried this thing? Looks kinda cool and easy to use.

http://www.easybrush.com/


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Not to answer for Maren, but I started researching this a year or two ago, and found that individual dogs vary widely.

For one thing, some individuals, for a variety of reasons, are low-producers of saliva. This affects the washing or rinsing action, particularly on the outside surfaces of the teeth.

Brushing (daily) and soft bones (not so much hard recreational bones, although some dogs do a pretty good gnawing-scraping with them; some do not, being more of a "get this bone OPEN" type) seem to be big benefits. 

What I want to do with this senior guy I have is do a complete exam and then watch his teeth now that he is on a good diet.

His teeth have actually improved since he came to me. Not just didn't get worse, but actually lost some plaque buildup within a year of starting RMBs. I would like to start clean with him, seeing this kind of improvement from a good diet.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> On another note, anyone ever tried this thing? Looks kinda cool and easy to use.
> 
> http://www.easybrush.com/


I'd buy that.

I also recommend the over-the-fingertip brush, which I have way better success with than the kind on a handle, like for humans.


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

RMB's cause explosive diarrhea with Deja, so I no longer give her anything like that. Even the smoked 'Butcher's Bones' that are sold specifically for dogs do it to her. So, I give her Nylabones. They work just as well, IMO.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Kristen Cabe said:


> RMB's cause explosive diarrhea with Deja, so I no longer give her anything like that. Even the smoked 'Butcher's Bones' that are sold specifically for dogs do it to her. So, I give her Nylabones. They work just as well, IMO.


Are you thinking "recreational bones" when I type "RMBs"? LOL

I meant the bones in a raw diet that are chewed up and digested, as opposed to something with marrow.


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

No idea if this is helpful or not...

Little foster dog arrived with death breath and green teeth two weeks ago. No history, other than stray from a US shelter. She's found a few of the old marrow bones lying around and picks those up to chew. I've given her some raw chicken backs and necks. She's not real keen on them, but she is getting the idea that they are edible. I think she eats some or most of them before the big dogs help her out. In that short time, there has been improvement. Her teeth look way better now, and her breath won't kill you, though she may yet need dental work.

I have had recent personal experience with periodontal issues... neglected my teeth for a long time, so got a crash course. Apparently it's important to look after your teeth. :roll:


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

leslie cassian said:


> No idea if this is helpful or not...
> 
> Little foster dog arrived with death breath and green teeth two weeks ago. No history, other than stray from a US shelter. She's found a few of the old marrow bones lying around and picks those up to chew. I've given her some raw chicken backs and necks. She's not real keen on them, but she is getting the idea that they are edible. I think she eats some or most of them before the big dogs help her out. In that short time, there has been improvement. Her teeth look way better now, and her breath won't kill you, though she may yet need dental work.


Yes, this is about where I am with the adopted dog. With this kind of improvement (and we did get the obviously bad teeth pulled when he was first rescued), it would be a shame not to give him a new lease.

It's hard not to agree with the vet's "wait and see" when the dog is old and the dental work is so expensive, but that lingering bit of bad breath is prodding me.

I'm gonna get some "estimates" tomorrow.


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## Kris Dow (Jun 15, 2008)

A rescued Basset Hound I know of had HORRIBLE breath, and it cleared up literally overnight when they finally had his teeth done, so at least if that is the problem, you should see improvement very quickly.

Plus, at least in humans there's significant evidence that health problems in the mouth lead to higher risk of heart disease, and it seems reasonable to think that may also be true in other animals with similar biology, so I'm not sure I'd be as confident as some people seem to be that as long as the teeth aren't rotting out, you're good to go. (In addition, there's some research to suggest that inflammation anywhere in the body increases the overall inflammatory response, so you may get knock-on benefits from clearing up dental problems in terms of a reduction in problems with arthritis or other inflammatory issues.)

As far as kibble goes, both of my dogs get kibble, and while Foxy chews bones frequently, Pirate isn't as interested, and yet his teeth have cleared up SIGNIFICANTLY since we adopted him a couple of months ago, which leads me to believe that not all kibbles are created equal. So that may be something to consider also. (Mine are both on Evo Red Meat at the moment, with the occasional addition of yogurt or pumpkin/squash/vegetables. He was on Science Diet when we got him, and who knows what before that.)


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Are you thinking "recreational bones" when I type "RMBs"? LOL
> 
> I meant the bones in a raw diet that are chewed up and digested, as opposed to something with marrow.


No, I actually meant _any_ kind of bones, but I was typing fast and RMB's just came out. :lol: I do know the difference between RMB's and rec. bones.


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

*A solution for teeth that are more prone to plaque buildup?*

This product is supposed to help prevent plaque buildup on the teeth, after a good cleaning. I don't know anything about it, but it might be an option for those with dogs that seem to be more prone to buildup. 









http://www.discountpetdrugs.com/oravethocaki.html


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## ben peron (Aug 19, 2008)

raw *femur bones*


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Forgot to add...if you're REALLY strapped for cash and have to choose between pre-anesthesia blood work and IV fluids during a sedation/general anesthesia procedure, pick the IV fluids. That seems to be the general wisdom I've seen on the VIN forums.



Well, just spoke to the vet in person (I was there about something else) and got a $350 price for cleaning and x-rays under anesthesia, with the pre-anesthesia bloodwork and the IV catheter included.

So I am doing it in November when they have some kind of senior health discount deal that will make it $300.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

I had a corgi that needed his teeth cleaned regulary. However, two weeks after the vet did it, you couldn't tell the difference. The solution became a couple of raw turkey necks a week and that kept them pristine. I plan to increase the raw turkey necks because it really burns me that I can feed them cheaper with real food vs. that ever increasing pricey dogfood that I buy. It can be inconvenient but I'm just going to bite the bullet.

Terrasita


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> I had a corgi that needed his teeth cleaned regulary. However, two weeks after the vet did it, you couldn't tell the difference. The solution became a couple of raw turkey necks a week and that kept them pristine. I plan to increase the raw turkey necks because it really burns me that I can feed them cheaper with real food vs. that ever increasing pricey dogfood that I buy. It can be inconvenient but I'm just going to bite the bullet.
> 
> Terrasita


Yes, I feed raw. In fact, this senior stopped accumulating plaque (to my eyes) when he started his new food at his new home with me. He even reversed some of the accumulation.

I fully expect that his teeth will remain clean after the old gumline (and below) plaque is gone.

I don't give recreational bones at all, and like you I see a world of difference in the dog who eats RMBs regularly. I don't know whether the suggestion on many raw-feeding sites that RMBs provide enzymes that help to keep the teeth clean is factual, or whether it's strictly the action of the bones and cartilage on the teeth, but I guess I don't really care. :lol:


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## David Scholes (Jul 12, 2008)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Yes, I feed raw. In fact, this senior stopped accumulating plaque (to my eyes) when he started his new food at his new home with me. He even reversed some of the accumulation.
> 
> I fully expect that his teeth will remain clean after the old gumline (and below) plaque is gone.
> 
> I don't give recreational bones at all, and like you I see a world of difference in the dog who eats RMBs regularly. I don't know whether the suggestion on many raw-feeding sites that RMBs provide enzymes that help to keep the teeth clean is factual, or whether it's strictly the action of the bones and cartilage on the teeth, but I guess I don't really care. :lol:


Makes me wonder if we humans should be eating RMB. I'm thinking we didn't need the tooth brush until after the advent of agriculture.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

David Scholes said:


> Makes me wonder if we humans should be eating RMB. I'm thinking we didn't need the tooth brush until after the advent of agriculture.


Well, we also typically died long before our teeth rotted into middle and old age too. Same with dogs. The tooth brush has also been around a really long time. Anything from sticks to animal bones.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

I just wanted to chime in to say I agree with what Maren said. One of my pet peeves of grooming shops is when they tell clients they can scale teeth equal to the job done by their veterinarian - that's just not true. They are giving their clients a false sense of security. I was a groomer at a shop where one of the guys did teeth and it was a real half assed job, to say nothing of the equipment not being sterile and the dogs being stressed to hell. 

I'm sure that those who are doing the teeth of their own dogs do a much better job than what I used to witness, but I do think on average, a vet office is a better place to have dogs teeth scaled than a groom shop!

Don't even get me started on the ridiculous practice of groom shops asking clients if they want to pay $2.00 or $5.00 extra for a tooth brushing when the dog comes to the shop at the most every 6 weeks!!!](*,)


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## Anna Kasho (Jan 16, 2008)

susan tuck said:


> I just wanted to chime in to say I agree with what Maren said. One of my pet peeves of grooming shops is when they tell clients they can scale teeth equal to the job done by their veterinarian - that's just not true. They are giving their clients a false sense of security. I was a groomer at a shop where one of the guys did teeth and it was a real half assed job, to say nothing of the equipment not being sterile and the dogs being stressed to hell.


That is not what I was saying. Yes, I'm a groomer. Yes, I have scaled my own dogs teeth, and I have to say, IMO it makes a big difference and I consider it worthwhile. I do not "do teeth" on other people's dogs (or many other things I have done with my own dogs, for that matter), and I agree about that cleaning being half-assed. There's only so much you can do for a dog that doesn't know or trust you completely, and many will really put up a fight for something as invasive.

However. I think any owner that picks up a scaler and really, REALLY checks over their own dog's teeth on a regular basis, is better off than someone who takes them to a vet to "have it done" once a year or so. I see way too many nasty teeth in dogs whose owners are oblivious because they are doing what their vet said - with the cleaning and kibbles and chews. Even brushing, which IMO really doesn't do much.

I still think the immediate benifit of getting the teeth clean outweighs any worrying over scratches from scaling. Worse things happen when chewing on bones or eating with sand/dirt/rocks outside. But that's just me with my dogs.


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## Jamielee Nelson (Apr 24, 2008)

Something quick to add here... my roommate did some research and she said that at least in cali no person who isn't a vet can legally work on a dogs teeth (aka vet tech or groomer).
anyone heard of this?
If it is true a lot of places are breaking the law.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

The other issue is that I have NEVER met a dog where you can get the lingual surface (the side that touches the tongue) of the teeth without sedation with a hand scaler. I know with my own teeth that it's a lot harder to remove the plaque that builds up on the lingual surface of my front incisors (especially on the lower jaw) and the back molars. I try to do a good job of brushing and flossing there, but even so, the dental hygienist has to work especially hard on those surfaces because they are so hard to reach, even with a human who will cooperate by holding their mouth open real wide. That's just an accident waiting to happen with either you lacerating the dog's gums or the dog lacerating you from a bite! So I don't think the boarded veterinary dentists are just trying to price gouge by saying the hand scaling is pretty much cosmetic any more than your own dentist would likely say the same.

Jamielee, that's what it says on the site I posted a little ways back. So yeah...


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Yeah, that's another thing, it's freakin against the law in Cali, but they do it. Lots of them do it.


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## Michael Breton (Aug 25, 2008)

I vote for the turkey necks. My dogs all eat chicken backs, turkey necks and the other stuff from my raw diet recipe. I'm amazed with their teeth. No such thing as tartar in the first place.

Plus in the heat, I give them frozen to the dogs to cool off. They love them. I have switched dogs onto turkey and it cleans the teeth up pretty well. But, if the dog’s teeth need professional care get it.


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