# Possible health puzzle.



## Jennifer Michelson (Sep 20, 2006)

Hi, 

I am hoping that some of you who like to connect the dots with health issues might have some ideas for me. My 8 yr old gsd, working sar dog performed very badly lately. I am looking at a variety of reasons. He had blood work and hip and knee xrays. Hips have some arthritis but not to bad. Vet originally had thought left knee because the dog putting more pressure on rt leg than left. xrays show that the rt knee has more effusion than the left. Will be seeing an orthopedist next week. 
Blood work mostly normal: slightly high eosinophils and slightly low neutrophils, and a high ggtp. No tickborne diseases (he has had lymes 2x and erlichia 1x) He had some crystals in his urine. He is on 2 weeks of antibiotics in case there is an infection.

The only other odd thing I have recently noticed and am not sure if it means anything is that he sometimes has thick ropey saliva when we walk (he is on leash walks until I know what is going on in his knees and still had the thick saliva).

He eats Wellness super 5 mix mixed with core and is on tylan daily for his SIBO. This is a dog who grows things-he had an epulid (mouth) and 2 black growths taken off his legs which were all benign. I just noticed another small black growth on a hind leg (the size of a small tick).

My main objective for posting is to see if any of the small things wrong put together could mean the start of a cancer or other disease/condition. His performance could easily be discomfort from his knees, but I want to see if anyone has any ideas. He seems fine other than the bad day. I was not expecting knee issues considering he shows no lameness. I dont know if hte bloodwork means anything at all. 

Thanks for any ideas.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

_" My 8 yr old gsd, working sar dog performed very badly lately."_


What was the first sign, the thing that made you say this? You say no lameness ....

Was it the knee and the ropy saliva? 


His SIBO is controlled, and he is eating and pooping normally?

Was there a fecal done? Any sign of worms?

How is his breath?


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## Jennifer Michelson (Sep 20, 2006)

Thanks Connie!

He had a particularly bad day where he did not find any victims. He did not behave in anyway that I have ever seen him behave. I can tell when he is stressed or confused, but he has never not found-I could not tell from him where the victims were. I trained with him 1x after the bad day and he did make his find.

Other than that he seems fine. Energetic, eating well etc. He has changed over the last year, but I have attributed it to age--a bit more dependent on me where he has been very independent as a rule. There is something, but I cant put my finger on it and I have been assuming it is age and it probably is. I know of several folks who had dogs with cancer and by the time they thougt something was wrong, it was too late. I thought that if I was investigating his health now, I would see if maybe any of the pieces fit into anything anyone had experienced before.

He took a mis-step in April running a trail, limped for 4-5 steps then went back to normal. I didnt rest him after that but started watching him. In June I had a vet look at him over who said he did have less muscling over the left hip than the rt and to xray him and put him on anti-inflammatories for a month. She said it could have been from the bad step. I do think he felt better on the anti-inflammatories, but there is not a huge difference off or on them. He has been on glucosamine, chondroitin and msm for a long time. He also sees a chiropractor every few months.

I finally got around to getting the xrays recently and a new vet who thinks it is an ACL problem (already pushing surgery).

No fecal done. Breath is pretty mild. The ropy saliva is something I noticed in the last few weeks and I attributed it to the colder weather. Today was colder too, so maybe it is just panting in cold weather. Again, I am probably being paranoid, but I thought I would throw out the different little issues and see if anyone thought they fit together.
Thanks for thinking about it!


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## mel boschwitz (Apr 23, 2010)

Sometimes excess saliva like that can be a pain response. Or stress. Maybe the arthritis issues are bugging him more than you realize? 

How's his spine? 

Tick tests can show false positives and false negatives. 2 months ago I had the same issue with my female. Couldnt find her way out of the crate. Appetite almost normal, but weird at times. 

Turned out to be Lyme. Treated her for a month+. She feels a LOT better now. Turns out it was little insidious things that had been going on for months leading up to this, but they were so small and inconsistent that I wasnt putting it together. Now those things are gone. 

Since tick diseases can give both false +/-, maybe treat anyways? 2 wks not enough tho. Has to be at least a month.

When I lived in CT my horse vet had us treat for tick diseases anytime a horse started working poorly with no obvious cause. Because of the false+/- he stopped testing unless someone had money to burn. 

Good luck


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Agree with Mel on the tick borne disease history. Did you do the C6 testing or in house SNAP? Anytime I see something weird, I rule out thyroid with Dodds or Michigan panel. One of the herding dogs in my group just progressively declined in the work for no reason. Came back abnormal low. Took a full season of meds to get him back to baseline. Make sure you are treating the optimum dose on the tick borne--not the Merck dose. I refer everyone to Tick-L.

T


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## Jennifer Michelson (Sep 20, 2006)

Thanks for the ideas!

The blood was sent out to a lab. It looked at everything. Looks like tick bornes were antibody tests--shows no antibodies for lymes or erlichia. He did go back to normal the 1st time he was treated for lymes. Is T4 the thyroid? range is 0.8-3.5, and his value was 1.1.

I think I will add a PT work up to the ortho exam. For myself, I have found that the physical therapist has been fantastic in finding pain and where it originates. The chiropractor noted that Griff starts to compensate for whatever is going on in the rear end up in his back. Works on him until he is satisfied that the back is relaxed.


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## mel boschwitz (Apr 23, 2010)

Chronic lyme hides in the joints and internal organs. Wont show antibodies the same way, but can still do damage (been there, done that).

Did you only test T-4? A good thyroid test has several components. And should be sent off to Dr. Dodds. Do you have comparison bloodwork?


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

mel boschwitz said:


> Chronic lyme hides in the joints and internal organs.



http://www.2ndchance.info/lyme.htm
Scroll to
_Can My Dog Ever Really Be Cured ? ..... The Lyme organism is extremely skillful at hiding .... _


http://www.lymeneteurope.org/info/the-complexities-of-lyme-disease
Scroll to
_The infection can enter the tissue that is optimal for its survival, and it may evade the immune system and antibiotics by hiding inside certain types of cells._


http://bakerinstitute.vet.cornell.edu/animalhealth/page.php?id=1101
Scroll to_
Dogs with recurrent episodes of Lyme disease, whether acquired from reinfestation with infected ticks or a relapse from an initial infection, are highly responsive to antibiotics given at the same doses as for a primary episode._


http://www.vetinfo.com/chronic-lyme-disease-in-dogs.html#b


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## mel boschwitz (Apr 23, 2010)

Good info Connie,
Maybe in dogs it's different. In my own personal long long battle with Lyme, the regular course of antibiotics not enough. Nor was it enough in many other chronic Lyme sufferers I knew of.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

mel boschwitz said:


> Good info Connie,
> *Maybe in dogs it's different. * In my own personal long long battle with Lyme, the regular course of antibiotics not enough. Nor was it enough in many other chronic Lyme sufferers I knew of.


It is.

Here are a few comments from the Cornell link at http://bakerinstitute.vet.cornell.edu/animalhealth/page.php?id=1101

_
Dogs respond very well to antibiotic treatment._
_
In contrast to human cases of Lyme disease, where three different stages are well known, Lyme disease in dogs is primarily and acute or subacute arthritis. The acute form may be transient and may recur in some cases. The devastating chronic stage in humans with systemic disease has rarely been seen in dogs.

Humans in the chronic stage of Lyme disease do not respond as favorably to antibiotics as dogs do._



I have heard or read Dr. Mehmet Oz say that it appears that humans may get not simply a tick-borne bacterial infection but also possibly a virus hybrid.


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## mel boschwitz (Apr 23, 2010)

When I was being treated for Lyme, I took not only antibiotics, but also anti viral and anti malarial. My doc ( not very popular with medical community but had great success with helping people with chronic lyme), felt that there were many unknown properties in the Lyme bacteria. Hence, 27 pills a day for 6 months... uck.. lol

I wonder if dogs are really "cured" with the shorter treatment vs humans, or if dogs just compensate better, and dont communicate their ills as plainly as humans.


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

mel boschwitz said:


> When I was being treated for Lyme, I took not only antibiotics, but also anti viral and anti malarial. My doc ( not very popular with medical community but had great success with helping people with chronic lyme), felt that there were many unknown properties in the Lyme bacteria. Hence, 27 pills a day for 6 months... uck.. lol
> 
> I wonder if dogs are really "cured" with the shorter treatment vs humans, or if dogs just compensate better, and dont communicate their ills as plainly as humans.


started 29 pills a week ago....ugh!


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Jennifer Michelson said:


> Thanks for the ideas!
> 
> The blood was sent out to a lab. It looked at everything. Looks like tick bornes were antibody tests--shows no antibodies for lymes or erlichia. He did go back to normal the 1st time he was treated for lymes. Is T4 the thyroid? range is 0.8-3.5, and his value was 1.1.
> 
> I think I will add a PT work up to the ortho exam. For myself, I have found that the physical therapist has been fantastic in finding pain and where it originates. The chiropractor noted that Griff starts to compensate for whatever is going on in the rear end up in his back. Works on him until he is satisfied that the back is relaxed.


 
You need a full panel from Dodds or miniamlly from the University of Michigan. Not sure where you live but my friends in the Northeast have a heluva time with Anasplasmosis. So did you do the Snap 4 C6 IDEXX test? I don't know if Lymes totally goes away especially if its minimally treated and there is a relapse or reoccurnce. I've kept Khira on Cats Claw for a long time and no reoccurences in a few years. 

T


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Connie Sutherland said:


> It is.
> 
> Here are a few comments from the Cornell link at http://bakerinstitute.vet.cornell.edu/animalhealth/page.php?id=1101
> 
> ...


When I was researching this with Khira, I ran across something that is more attuned to what Mel is saying especially where there is reinfection or relapse due to the minimal treatment regimen. There are tons of people on Tick-L who are dealing with chronic symptoms without active infection necessarily or chronic relapses.

T


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## Jennifer Michelson (Sep 20, 2006)

Thanks all. He will be going for an ortho consult, plus a PT exam to go over his whole body. I will talk to the vet about the lymes etc and go back over his old blood work. I know I have some from a year ago, just have to find it.

The thing is, is he seems fine, no one would be able to say there is anything wrong with the dog. The vet thought he was 2 when he first started examining him (new vet, 1st visit). I have been suspicious for a while and then he had his horrible day. But I also feel a little paranoid, like I am looking for trouble..(of course if I am looking for trouble and find something really early that can be fixed, I will be happy). 

I am not ready to retire him, he is a fantastic dog and lives to work. I hope I just need to rest him. I had looked back at our Oct and Nov and he had 5 days of searching and 5 trainings in those 2 months and injured a foot on one of the searches. He had his very bad day the 1st weekend in Dec.


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## Jennifer Michelson (Sep 20, 2006)

Thanks for the links Connie, I will be reading them as soon as I can and before I go to the vet next.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Jennifer Michelson said:


> Thanks all. He will be going for an ortho consult, plus a PT exam to go over his whole body. I will talk to the vet about the lymes etc and go back over his old blood work. I know I have some from a year ago, just have to find it.
> 
> The thing is, is he seems fine, no one would be able to say there is anything wrong with the dog. The vet thought he was 2 when he first started examining him (new vet, 1st visit). I have been suspicious for a while and then he had his horrible day. But I also feel a little paranoid, like I am looking for trouble..(of course if I am looking for trouble and find something really early that can be fixed, I will be happy).
> 
> I am not ready to retire him, he is a fantastic dog and lives to work. I hope I just need to rest him. I had looked back at our Oct and Nov and he had 5 days of searching and 5 trainings in those 2 months and injured a foot on one of the searches. He had his very bad day the 1st weekend in Dec.


I was assuming the Lymes and Thyroid were current??? Are you comparing current to the old or are you referring to blood work that is a year old.. Every time a vet has told me that there was absolutely nothing wrong with the dog, its proved out that I was right. I know their every life twitch. Never cast out your gut feeling. Mine start getting in the 8-10 range and I start worrying about how long I have left with them. Conditions today were rotten with mud and slippery areas. I let the young dogs do all the sorting Don't want to chance Khira turning/twisting anything. I get mroe guarded when they reach a certain age. Good luck and keep us posted.

T


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## James Kotary (Nov 14, 2012)

Thick saliva can stem from a blockage of the saliva glands. You mentioned your dog had a euplid removed from the mouth area. Has the vet checked the glands to make sure they are not blocked or even damaged.


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## Jennifer Michelson (Sep 20, 2006)

The lymes and thyroid are from last week. I have old blood work I can compare the numbers to--answering a question from Mel.

The thick saliva is not often, but something new I had noticed. The epulid was very small and I think fairly superficial. A good point to think about tho. Thanks.


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## Jennifer Michelson (Sep 20, 2006)

partial update. I took him to an orthopedist at one of those big specialty places. I had Remus there for PT and was happy with how practical they were (as opposed to pushing for lots of high tech stuff). I was very nervous because the new regular vet was convinced Griff needed knee surgery.

Ortho got Griff to squeal real well (no one else has) and decided we needed back and better hip/pelvis xrays. Turns out he has 1 bit of spondylosis and some arthritis in the hips. The knees are probably from compensation. So overall, nothing major but easily the 2 things combined and the hard 2 months we'd had had him hurting. Vet says to use anti-inflammatories and pain med before and during work and rest him for another 2 weeks but otherwise he is fine. I am putting him back to work this week.

I will still pursue the tick stuff and possibly the thyroid. I am getting pissy with vets now tho--Initially I had gone specifically for a tick panel and after getting a copy of the blood report (they ran a 'wellness' workup), I realized the tick stuff was the spot tests, not the titers....When you go in asking specifically about tick issues, wouldnt you think they would run a real test...

My 2 choices for vets now seems to be the farm/pet vet group that almost doesnt believe in high tech stuff and the high tech vets who seem to want to use all of their new toys all the time. I need something in the middle!


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Right now NC State (that is the tick lab they use around here) is offering a special to vets on a tick package with titers.

http://www.cvm.ncsu.edu/vhc/csds/documents/VBDDLTestRequestFormJan2013withComprehensivePanel.pdf

Another thing not mentioned is a possible abscess tooth. My first warning of one dog's abscessed canine was a complete loss of scent discrimination. We thought it was a training reversion then a few weeks later the tooth went black, did a root canal and antibiotics and it restored that function.

I convinced my holistic vet to put 9.5 year old Grim on thyroid medicine even though his values were in the low normal range. Dodds suggests midrange for GSDs (that thyroid levels should be breed specific) It made excellent changes. He, too, has spondylosis but it did not seem to impact his work but it did his agility. He is retired now just because it is too much physically for him. 

Sobering reminder to use the ramp with the dog who does not need it. I am convinced the battering from leaping in and out of the truck does them no good.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Jennifer:

How old is your dog? What inflammatories? If he has arthritic changes in the hip joints--what degree? I'd investigate Adequan injections. Okay, I looked at your first post. He's 8. I'd definitely investigate Adequan. Age 8 is when I start thinking reduced duties for mine. Khira will soon be 9 and there are things I just don't use her for. Notice she's into sleeping on a pillow or my bed even these days. Never did that before. 

T


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## Kat Hunsecker (Oct 23, 2009)

Well points made...but I definatly would pursue the Thyroid... 1.1 could be too low for this dog... someone mentioned Dr dodds, very good source... and this can be the cause for all kinds of troubles...
find the page and the articles for Dr Dodds, maybe you find some clues .... Helped me a lot!


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