# Differences in working male vs female



## Meng Xiong (Jan 21, 2009)

I was unable to search for any of the relevant information. So just out of sheer curiousity what are some of the quirks or differences (besides the obvious heat cycle) between working a male vs female.

I'd like to hear your prefferences likes/dislikes, and advantages/disadvantages.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Males piss on the trees, females on the grass........well.......there's some of them wimmins out there that have a bit more testerone then they need. :-o:-#8-[


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

I like both,..... I think females have a tendency to be less forgiving at times, in certain situations. Neither of mine take any shit.....the males will put up with it for much longer. 

Just my dogs anyway....


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

I think the big mis-conception is the people want a male because they think males are automatically better than females. There are some awesome females out there that will and do smoke males. I know when I had my litter a few months ago everybody would call and want a male but could give absolute no good logic to why they wanting one more than a female. So I probally shot myself in the foot but I would tell them to go F - off. Basically it comes down to lack of knowledge and really knowing about working dogs in my eyes. Yea you have heat cycles but they only last a short time period of a entire year. I love the drives in my girls, yea there bitchy but who cares there good workers.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

"Basically it comes down to lack of knowledge and really knowing about working dogs in my eyes. Yea you have heat cycles but they only last a short time period of a entire year."

So if it is lack of knowledge, what do the numbers say? What is the ratio of titled males to females?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Males are usually larger, usually more powerful, and usually display certain traits to a greater degree.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

I have seen hard hitters in both sex, like Bob said some are "standers" from both sex...everything here has a peeing contest!

I like females b/c they are smaller and easy to transport, males seem to have a bit more drive/power. All really depends upon the critter.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> "Basically it comes down to lack of knowledge and really knowing about working dogs in my eyes. Yea you have heat cycles but they only last a short time period of a entire year."
> 
> So if it is lack of knowledge, what do the numbers say? What is the ratio of titled males to females?


Don't care about titles, just because you have a titled dog doesn't mean there a good dog. Numbers might be higher in males as workers, but like I said there females out there just as good as males.


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

It is correct that most females are not as strong or do not have the presence on the field that good males bring to the table. 

I like females because I think it is important, especially if you are going to be breeding, to get them out there and get them seen and it is fun to have a female that steps out of the crate with an attitude of "okay, what's next?". 

This is why I love watching people like Geoff go out there and kick ass....you get to see Sasha and know what she may bring to the table as far as her pups go.....she will pass more than the male, that is for sure. (not specifying the Sasha/Juice litter when I say that, but in general about passing traits). 

I think with males, they give to the pups, but you hope for more traits from a male rather than know what traits may come with the female. 

I am with Harry on the fact that for me, it does not matter about titles.....titles and certs to me mean the dog and handler had a good day....and with the scoring titles, the scores speak louder than the title itself. 

Hope that makes sense.....ugh


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Males are smarter, can train at a higher level, don't have heat cycles that make them a pain in the ass.

Females have their place, and that is to reproduce. Sure there are some females that might hit as hard as some males, but at that point you need to be re evaluating what you are using to breed with.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

I usually pick a pup based on what I like, not the plumbing. That said, I do seem to pick more females then males LOL But as a breeder that works for me, I'd rather have a good female and be able to go out and pick the right male for her then have a good male and be waiting for someone with the right female to show up and breed to him. On the flip side if your competition dog is a female instead of a breeding taking 20-30 minutes out of their life, it takes a few months. I work my girls while they are pregnant, and have even trialed them, but a breeding is going to take 2-3 months out of our training/competition schedule. That alone IMO can be a reason to pick a male, it's a catch-22 if you have a really good female, do you want her out there trialing all the time, or in the whelping box reproducing herself. I've had a few females that looking back I wish they had spent a little more time in the whelping box, and a little less time on the training/trial field.

IMO there are some general differences, but there are always exceptions. Males tend to be physically larger then females, and physically stronger. This can translate into harder impacts on entry and stronger bites. Honestly beyond that I haven't seen any really consistent differences. I've had smart males and dumb females, and dumb males and smart females. Same for levels of affection, independence, character, drive levels, and most other traits you can mention. 

I do think the females tend to deal with horomones better, well maybe not better but it can be a shorter period of time. My girls get a little hormonal when in heat, but it's only while they are in heat, while the males can get stupid when any girl is in heat, so their stupidity can actually last longer depending on how many girls they are around.

As far as why most people work males, I think it's a couple of things:
historically most handlers were men, and they prefer not to work a female for the same reason they don't want to work a neutered male.
males tend to be larger and more physically imposing
males don't have heat cycles twice a year, and breeding takes 20-30 minutes out of their life not 3-4 months

But I also see attitudes changing. 15 years ago when I walked on the field with a female I'd have people asking me why I was working a female, now most people don't even think twice about it. Half the dogs in our Ring club are female, 15 years ago I would have been the only one.


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Males are smarter, can train at a higher level, don't have heat cycles that make them a pain in the ass.
> 
> Females have their place, and that is to reproduce. Sure there are some females that might hit as hard as some males, but at that point you need to be re evaluating what you are using to breed with.


So, are you saying that a hard hitting female should be considered something not to breed to? Just trying to understand the comment....

I don't know that I agree with males being smarter, my females at least have learned faster than the males....but they tend to be more difficult to "fix" a improperly trained behavior though.....I do agree with heat cycles being a pain in the ass at times though.


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## Molly Graf (Jul 20, 2006)

Females are smarter. That's why they can be more difficult to train - they "think" and reason more than males - they can "wonder why" more - males are more "biddable". At the same time, a trainer who has a good relationship with a female will get much more out of her than a male - males can be more stubborn, hard-headed, block heads etc. They can take a correction better, bounce back without asking questions or pouting (as females can). Females can hold grudges - training has to be more tactful with a female. 

And of course there are the obvious differences - males are bigger, more powerful physically, bark deeper and louder, hit harder, and look more physically imposing. 

I love to see a strong, powerful hard-hitting dog of any breed/sex. But I especially love to see a powerful, hard-hitting female, as they are harder to find. When found, they should be a treasure for breeding.

molly


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

I like breeding a complete bitch to a asshole of a male. Thats what I did with the litter that I had. Have not got no complaints from no one other than there fringing nuts and hyper with alot of energy. So I am very happy with the breeding. I actually kept a female back for my wife and I. As of right now shes a fringing nutcase which we love. Now saying that shes only 4 months old and that can all change but right now she looks real dam promising. I also found that the females were quicker to learn crate training where the males were like piss on you and piss on me who gives a crap LOL.


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## Molly Graf (Jul 20, 2006)

I also meant to include that females mature faster than males, both physically and mentally.

molly


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Carol Boche said:


> It is correct that most females are not as strong or do not have the presence on the field that good males bring to the table.
> 
> I like females because I think it is important, especially if you are going to be breeding, to get them out there and get them seen and it is fun to have a female that steps out of the crate with an attitude of "okay, what's next?".
> 
> ...


The only titles that I like are the ones that are on dogs produced here. I have never bred to a titled dog. The pint I was making is that it isn't lack of knowledge that leads people to wanting a male. When they look around, most the titled dogs are males. If you want a dog to do sport work or whatever, the odds are better with a male.
I have the same problem Harry does. I sell males two or more to one female. A lot of people look at what a male is worth if he has a string of titles. If he can produce he is worth a lot of bucks in some circles. What is a female worth in comparison. 
I hunt with males. I need the power and the size because hogs don't climb trees, they back into the brush and fight. If I mainly hunted bears that tree normally, I have often said I would use all females simply because I want more hunting ability than fight and strength.


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> The only titles that I like are the ones that are on dogs produced here. I have never bred to a titled dog. The pint I was making is that it isn't lack of knowledge that leads people to wanting a male. When they look around, most the titled dogs are males. If you want a dog to do sport work or whatever, the odds are better with a male.
> I have the same problem Harry does. I sell males two or more to one female. A lot of people look at what a male is worth if he has a string of titles. If he can produce he is worth a lot of bucks in some circles. What is a female worth in comparison.
> I hunt with males. I need the power and the size because hogs don't climb trees, they back into the brush and fight. If I mainly hunted bears that tree normally, I have often said I would use all females simply because I want more hunting ability than fight and strength.


Gotcha Don now that you put it in your terms and explanation.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Who is this Geoff that you speak?


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Molly Graf said:


> Females are smarter. That's why they can be more difficult to train - they "think" and reason more than males - they can "wonder why" more - males are more "biddable". At the same time, a trainer who has a good relationship with a female will get much more out of her than a male - males can be more stubborn, hard-headed, block heads etc. They can take a correction better, bounce back without asking questions or pouting (as females can). Females can hold grudges - training has to be more tactful with a female.
> 
> And of course there are the obvious differences - males are bigger, more powerful physically, bark deeper and louder, hit harder, and look more physically imposing.
> 
> ...


I don't buy that females are smarter Molly. I used to think that and would hyave sworn to it because when I am working pups, the females shine and pick stuff up so quick. Over the years, I am looking at it differently, I think the males just play it closer to the vest and the male pups, being a bit more concerned about things like being dominate, just got more on their mind. The things I see the males do in the yard at times blows me away and tells me they are not so dumb after all. Never had a female open doors and gates but have had a number of males that could do it as fast as I could. When it comes to training, they hold back on me as much as they can ....like make me. I got to thinking they were stupid. They are normally better problem solvers when it comes to thinking something through....that isn't stupid. What it boils down to is I think the girls look smarter because they are more pliable and eager to please you, especially if they are going to get something out of it. What it is, the girls look smarter because they are better at manipulating us.....some things never change. LOL


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Howard Gaines III said:


> Who is this Geoff that you speak?


Really?????


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Don Turnipseed said:


> What it is, the girls look smarter because they are better at manipulating us.....some things never change. LOL


Makes sense actually.....I think there are exceptions to the rule though, there always are.


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## Molly Graf (Jul 20, 2006)

My experiences are opposite yours Don - interesting. ALL save one of my dogs that have been "escape artists" - as in opening crates, latches, taking off snaps, figuring out latches, containers, climbing fences - etc - have been females. The problem-solvers - have been females. The "thinkers" - females. 

and I don't think females are "smarter" as in more brain cells, larger brain capacity - but I do think they use their mental capabilities better, faster, more effectively, than males. And they mature faster, so start showing what they are capable of, earlier. I have to guess that many good males have been "washed" because they were pushed too fast, too soon and not given enough chance to mature before problems were caused.

I also see more people looking for males for working. And I also think IMO females make better pets, especially with small children. Finding a tough working female is more difficult. But also if not as many top trainers work females, you won't see as many out there. When you do see them, they are worth the watch though.

molly


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Molly Graf said:


> My experiences are opposite yours Don - interesting. ALL save one of my dogs that have been "escape artists" - as in opening crates, latches, taking off snaps, figuring out latches, containers, climbing fences - etc - have been females. The problem-solvers - have been females. The "thinkers" - females.
> 
> and I don't think females are "smarter" as in more brain cells, larger brain capacity - but I do think they use their mental capabilities better, faster, more effectively, than males.
> 
> molly


Well Molly, maybe there is some truth to the old addage that dogs are like their owners.....and I am the smartest one in this house LOL Actually, I have never bred a male because he so smart. I have kept and bred several females because they were such quick learners.


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Don Turnipseed said:


> .....and I am the smartest one in this house LOL


Aren't you the only one in the house????

Doug says the same thing....dogs are like their owners....maybe that is why mine always see the need to be busy......LOL


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## Meng Xiong (Jan 21, 2009)

Lots of insightful replies, thanks!


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Carol Boche said:


> Aren't you the only one in the house????
> 
> Doug says the same thing....dogs are like their owners....maybe that is why mine always see the need to be busy......LOL


Yes, and this is why I can say I am the smartest....and I am going to keep it that way. Wait, gotta go. Palin(airedale bitch) is barking to come in.


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## David Ruby (Jul 21, 2009)

Some video that I think is relevant to the topic:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=55xqb0vK6jg

I like females just because I tend to gel with them better. That's not a working dog thing just personal preference. I also like smaller dogs, generally speaking all else being equal. That said, there have been male dogs I'd love to have owned that were really cool to have around. Males might be stronger and more powerful, and the heat cycles are a bit of a pain, but overall it's just having a dog that I enjoy being with and working more and also a belief that a good female can still work well.

Perhaps not great rationale, but I figured I should try to add something more to the conversation than the video above.

-Cheers


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

I believe that dogs are smarter than most fringing people in this world today !!!


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Amen Harry, amen.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Harry Keely said:


> I believe that dogs are smarter than most fringing people in this world today !!!


sad but true


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Yes, and this is why I can say I am the smartest....and I am going to keep it that way. Wait, gotta go. Palin(airedale bitch) is barking to come in.


LOL Don....hey...just tell her to open the damn door...


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

I really don't have experience with enough different dogs to generalize but what Molly said has rung true for me at least with WL GSDs. 

I am actually thinking it would work out all around better for my next cadaver dog to be a female but I am dreading managing two females in the same house......particularly since the current female seems to only have issues with other female dogs.

The male gets along with anybody but I just like how the females hunt better and are more independant [and that is in general]


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: I don't know that I agree with males being smarter, my females at least have learned faster than the males....but they tend to be more difficult to "fix" a improperly trained behavior though.....I do agree with heat cycles being a pain in the ass at times though.

If all these females people are talking about are so smart and wonderful then where are they on the scorecards ?? 

It just doesn't work out the way people would like others to believe. Look at the dogs that are out there winning and doing, and look at the percentages of females.

Here is a funny thought, if females were so smart, why was Lassie a boy ??


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## Molly Graf (Jul 20, 2006)

Lassie was a boy because - 

"The character of Lassie, created by Eric Knight, is a female collie. Lassie is always portrayed onscreen as a female.

The actual dog has always been a male collie. Female collies shed their coat (blow coat) several times a year and would make them unsuitable to be ready to perform or appear at any time. Also, male collies are larger and can play opposite a child actor for a longer time before the public realizes the child is growing up. "

nothing to do with trainability or temperament. I believe the reason you don't see more females on the trial field is because most handlers prefer males - they prefer males for different reasons but mainly IMO because they are physically bigger, stronger and more powerful (physically) than females. Also females must take time out for litters. But handlers who do compete females at top levels do so very successfully - John Jabina is one example (not the only one) - 

Nancy you are correct IMO females are better for SAR because of their greater hunt drive, their smaller size which makes them typically more agile, athletic and with better stamina - they can be more atuned to their handler's signals - and they can be more independant than males, less distractible. 
However, as you say having two females in the same household can be difficult, at least if both are dominant females - there is nothing worse in my experience than a female vs female fight - they are not bluffing (as males often are) - female fights can be very nasty, and very difficult to break up.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

"Nancy you are correct IMO females are better for SAR because of their greater hunt drive, their smaller size which makes them typically more agile, athletic and with better stamina - they can be more atuned to their handler's signals - and they can be more independant than males, less distractible." 

First, I have to ask about the misconception that small equals more agile.There is more animation in their movement which leads to the perception of fast but a big dog that is built right will always outdo a small dog that is built right. There may be something to be said about getting in smaller places but that is it. Wolves are huge....and they can catch any little dog would be an example. It may be a breed differenc but I find the females, usually but not always, less hard headed than the males. I do believe from watching both, the females have no problems with me being the boss, while the males do...but they get used to it after a few battles. A short dog can corner fast than a tall dog but that is another thing.


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## David Ruby (Jul 21, 2009)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> If all these females people are talking about are so smart and wonderful then where are they . . . ??


Dantero?  Just one example, but she has some pretty accomplished females.



> It just doesn't work out the way people would like others to believe. Look at the dogs that are out there winning and doing, and look at the percentages of females.
> 
> Here is a funny thought, if females were so smart, why was Lassie a boy ??


Maybe (well, not about Lassie). I think you have a point since the statistics probably support your belief. I think it's probably just preference and finding the best dog within your preferences. Males are generally going to be physically stronger and more powerful so there would be a possible advantage in the working ability. That combined with most people historically seeming to prefer working males which might make it a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Still, there are obviously females that can do the work and there are worse things than a working a good working dog that doesn't score quite as high in points as a male might. Worse things like Don hunting and realizing you might need the extra size & power of the males for certain things, like slowing down a really big hog or something.

-Cheers


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

David, I really think, even with hogs, the males inherent nature to control is higher than the females. This makes them winners with dangerous game or men.... an inherent part of their nature is to control and dominate. I keep hearing how few handlers have females....it isn't because handlers are men....they use what will win ....that is what determines their popularity. If females were the better all around dog for the game, that is what the pros would be using. Doesn't make females bad....just makes them not as good. There is a difference.


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

I'll agree that there are good females out there that can do the work . But to the same extent (numbers) that males can I have my doubts . 

For sports the arguement of it being a male dominated field and that males naturally prefer male dogs sounds good and I agree to a point . 

But , having competed with my PSD and in sports myself , one thing I know about humans is that in competition it's the winning that's more important . 

If there's this almost untouched pool of female dogs waiting out there with the qualities to win , I find it hard to believe they are past over just because they are female .


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## David Ruby (Jul 21, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> David, I really think, even with hogs, the males inherent nature to control is higher than the females. This makes them winners with dangerous game or men.... an inherent part of their nature is to control and dominate. I keep hearing how few handlers have females....it isn't because handlers are men....they use what will win ....that is what determines their popularity. If females were the better all around dog for the game, that is what the pros would be using. Doesn't make them bad....just makes them not as good. There is a difference.


Hey Don, maybe you and Jeff are right. Part of my above point was playing Devil's Advocate. However, I have also talked to a few people that I respect that prefer working with females. I'm green, and trying to learn as much as I can, so I'm not trying to pretend I've got the answers. Still, if the precedent is set that people generally just go for the males, and some breeders reportedly do not work their females because they just want their job to be good breeding dogs, it seems very likely that some really possibly great working bitches are going to be overlooked. That will to some extent skew the numbers.

I do honestly see your point though, and you are probably right. Still, I think "not as good" can still be pretty good and functional at a pretty high level. I can see if you are going for a high-level where a male will do better for you, but I can also see situations where I think a female can do the job just fine and might be a better fit for one reason or another.

-Cheers


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Bob touched on this point. I have had 3 females that can and have gone toe to toe with the males and have held their own. All three had a hormone imbalance and had an overdose of testosterone. They hiked their legs, they had massive heads and for all intent and purpose, they looked like males. They dominated the other bitches and tried to dominate the males. They all had one litter when they were young and never had another even though they were bred. They could have competed in a males venue.


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## Dennis Jones (Oct 21, 2009)

I was told it that males are preferred because of simple mathematics, the reason for the trials is to find the dog with the most desirable characteristics to improve the breed. Males can obviously sire more offspring in a year then a single female in her lifetime. It has been argued why even bring females to trials when good breeders can determine on their own if a bitch has what it takes/


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## Anne Jones (Mar 27, 2006)

I prefer females to males. I believe that they are smarter, thinkers (problem solvers), cunning & manipulative, learn & adjust more quickly to new situations & are more bonded to their handlers . Maybe some of these qualities are just perpetuation of the species traits, since the female is 'in charge' of the care of the furture of the species. I have not seen these traits to the same degree in the 3 males that I have had. 

I have seen my female act a bit flaky very occasionaly while in heat ...but NEVER when working. She is tuff, bites hard & stays in the fight with no difference while in or out of heat & she has had as much pressue put on her while working as we have put on the males in training. No favorits played in the work arena for her being a female. She is a hard bitch whos work ethic has always been the same since she first started to do bite work, heat cycles have no change in that.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

I don't know about any of that sport related stuff, but I genuinely enjoy working with dogs in a developmental or explorative sense. Females provide me with more of a challenge and being naturally drawn to solving problems, working with females makes the experience more fulfilling to me. In other words I feel like I am able to gain a greater understanding of behaviors and what influences them by working with females.

And man, when its a really nice bitch on the field or wherever it's difficult to not stop and take notice of them.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> "Nancy you are correct IMO females are better for SAR because of their greater hunt drive, their smaller size which makes them typically more agile, athletic and with better stamina - they can be more atuned to their handler's signals - and they can be more independant than males, less distractible."
> 
> First, I have to ask about the misconception that small equals more agile.There is more animation in their movement which leads to the perception of fast but a big dog that is built right will always outdo a small dog that is built right. There may be something to be said about getting in smaller places but that is it. Wolves are huge....and they can catch any little dog would be an example. It may be a breed differenc but I find the females, usually but not always, less hard headed than the males. I do believe from watching both, the females have no problems with me being the boss, while the males do...but they get used to it after a few battles. A short dog can corner fast than a tall dog but that is another thing.


I can tell you I would rather have the smaller dog. Definitely easier to pick up over your head or smaller to work in a crawlspace. A big dog is heavier to carry it if is hurt, needs a bigger crate, rocks the boat more [water cadaver], is not as heat-efficient [but I guess the converse it true in the cold], and is more of a hassle to load on things like gators. There is probably a happy balance to me........anything over 40-45 lbs is just extra dog. There are plenty of dogs even smaller than this that can outpace most people all day. Cadaver work.....so not bitework and a smaller dog is friendlier to my shoulders too for tug.


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## Dennis Jones (Oct 21, 2009)

I really like my two females, but the next one is going to be a male from the same lines.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

"And man, when its a really nice bitch on the field or wherever it's difficult to not stop and take notice of them."

Amen to that....even if I didn't stop till I hit the VW bus in front of me. He stopped to take notice, I didn't. Is that ot? 
Let's just say the bitches have their place....but the males rule in the contact sports. Always have....always will. 

I know y'all have seen the nature show where a bunch of lionesses bring down some prey. About 50 hyenas came and the lionesses bailed. ONE male came, killed the first hyena in the blink of an eye and the other 49 hit the road while he settled down to eat. I thought I would bring that up before someone said in nature the females are the hunters. Well, the males are still the big guns in protection even in nature. That is just the way it was meant to be.


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> "And man, when its a really nice bitch on the field or wherever it's difficult to not stop and take notice of them."
> 
> Amen to that....even if I didn't stop till I hit the VW bus in front of me. He stopped to take notice, I didn't. Is that ot?
> Let's just say the bitches have their place....but the males rule in the contact sports. Always have....always will.
> ...


I can't wait to show the to my wife the next time she turns into a *****.


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## Molly Graf (Jul 20, 2006)

"First, I have to ask about the misconception that small equals more agile.There is more animation in their movement which leads to the perception of fast but a big dog that is built right will always outdo a small dog that is built right. There may be something to be said about getting in smaller places but that is it. Wolves are huge....and they can catch any little dog would be an example. It may be a breed differenc but I find the females, usually but not always, less hard headed than the males. I do believe from watching both, the females have no problems with me being the boss, while the males do...but they get used to it after a few battles. A short dog can corner fast than a tall dog but that is another thing."

I said smaller dogs are more agile. More agile is not the same as faster - larger dogs are faster on the straightaway, smaller dogs are more agile - ie they turn faster, accelerate faster, jump, turn, stop, start, with more agility - making them better IMO for SAR, not to mention carrying your own dog or lifting it, rubble-pile work, etc. If I did SAR I'd have a female or smaller male for sure, for these reasons. 

molly


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Since the question didn't specifically state it had to be sport related, I thought I'd throw in my dos centavos. Since I test each adult dog I procure, I don't see that much difference in male or female. When selected, I'm looking for a specifici set of behavior that are not sex specific. After saying that, I did make myself a promise; the next cadaver dog I train will be a female. Few things frustrate me like a marking male. 

DFrost


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

David - Hopefully you won't get a female dog that marks! 

My male USAR dogs would get a boot in the rear (figuratively speaking, of course) if they even so much as thought about lifting a leg. I don't see it happening a lot with my dogs though. On my last deployment, we searched the entire afternoon and my male Lab never stopped to pee. After we were done, I leashed him up, took him over to a grassy area and he peed for what seemed like forever. I felt bad about that - thinking he would stop to pee while searching if he had to. I guess that wasn't the case.

I seem to be in the minority here, but I prefer male dogs for the detection work I do. Not that I wouldn't work a female, but most of the ones I've worked with have been too sensitive (in a lot of ways) IMO. I've seen a couple of Lab and Malinois females I've liked in USAR, but I've only ever met one female GSD that I thought was good. Most female GSDs in USAR aren't the kind of dog that I like to work.

And, in my experience, agility for a USAR dog is more dependent on the individual dog's temperament than it is size. Certainly there are extremes, such as confident Great Dane would have a harder time moving around on rubble than perhaps a confident JRT. But if you're looking at the traditional USAR working breeds and comparing their agility in USAR work, I've seen large dogs (90 + pounders) move pretty well up there.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

After a few times of my dog peeing on source I got pretty agressive at correcting marking behavior. We do not need a pee alert. So my dog does get to make a pit stop but not random marking.


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

I have a friend who works her male HR dog with an e-collar on in order to control his marking.


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## Molly Graf (Jul 20, 2006)

Yes, not the same thing but in tracking (schutzhund) my dogs (male or female) learn very quickly they are not allowed to pee, marking or otherwise - when the line is on and track has begun. This is made VERY clear and usually in my experience there is only one mistake (with males usually, lifting their leg along the track to mark) and that's the end of it.

molly


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Nancy Jocoy said:


> . We do not need a pee alert. So my dog does get to make a pit stop but not random marking.


If it's consistent and repeatable, it could be classified as a final response. My guess is you probably wouldn't want the media to air it to the family. ha ha ha.

DFrost


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## Carol Boche (May 13, 2007)

I guess I don't have an issue with the males marking.....if they even look like they are thinking about it....they get what for. 

We have had this discussion before, but, my dogs can piss on whatever they want when we are not working.....but training and work, they know better. 

I am pretty sure that people disagreed with me on that, but, I let my dogs be dogs when they are not working, and for me, it works.


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## Vi Shaffer (Jan 25, 2010)

Konnie Hein said:


> I have a friend who works her male HR dog with an e-collar on in order to control his marking.


 
Hi Konnie, Do you mean your friend works her HR dog on an e-collar on an actual search? Or do you mean when she is training and trying to correct the problem?

As far as Lassie always being a male dog - here's some info and a link you may be interested in:

“The first "Lassie" was played by a smart and attractive collie named Pal; he was chosen from 300 candidates. The producers chose a male to play her because traditionally male dogs are more attractive; they are also slightly less intelligent, but the trainer compensated for that on the set.”

http://www.answers.com/topic/lassie-the-dog


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Vi Shaffer said:


> Hi Konnie, Do you mean your friend works her HR dog on an e-collar on an actual search? Or do you mean when she is training and trying to correct the problem?


I should have been more clear. I've never been on an actual search with her, so I don't know if she uses it then. I've only seen her at training, where the dog wears the collar to correct the problem.


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## Patrick Cheatham (Apr 10, 2006)

Boy has this thread got me thinking. I have not worked a male in SAR only two females. Not that I haven't tried a male. 

But now that I think about it the females due seem to be better problem solvers and more forgiving. I did wash one female that "I still" have a couple of years ago.
Because she can be agressive to dogs outside of the home. I swear sometimes there is something else going on with her. lol since she tends to raise her leg to pee.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Patrick Cheatham said:


> Boy has this thread got me thinking. I have not worked a male in SAR only two females. Not that I haven't tried a male.
> 
> But now that I think about it the females due seem to be better problem solvers and more forgiving. I did wash one female that "I still" have a couple of years ago.
> Because she can be agressive to dogs outside of the home. I swear sometimes there is something else going on with her. lol since she tends to raise her leg to pee.


I've had plenty of bitches that hike their leg. Rather have that than a male that squats..


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

My males all walk up to trees and hike their legs and pee and crap at the same time. Anyone else have dogs do that?


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## Anna Kasho (Jan 16, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> My males all walk up to trees and hike their legs and pee and crap at the same time. Anyone else have dogs do that?


Yeah, what's with that? I have a male mal that poops like he is marking, on bushes and such... LOL


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

What I see, and have experienced. Is that it's way easier to get a male who likes to fight, who will without regard for his own saftey put himself somewhere where he may get hurt. This maybe out of courage, or plain stupidity. I do not think it's either, I think there is a biological reason for this. Females tend to have a much larger sense of self-preservation. This can be seen in almost all mammals....There are exceptions like penguins...but thier stupid, they live in anatartica. 

The biological theory is based on the most powerful drive of all. The drive to pro-create. Females can only reproduce 2 times a year. where a male can reproduce as many times as his weiner can take. To have the species pro-create, you only need a handful of males....and bunch of females. And if things got really bad, you would only need one male. So, I think in order to preserve viable breeding to have the species go on. The girls will protect themselves by not engaging, they need to be Mama's...take care of the kids. Where boys...well, they are expendable almost. They can afford to die...a Mama cannot. So, they are more apt to fight. This obviously is not a hard and fast rule....I compete a female. I like females. It's a biological drive in me of being paternal that draws me to them. I will take care of my girls more in the sense of affection. I will protect them more. 

Some breeders claim it's to hard to compete a female and breed her in a breeding program. Which I can see being a valid point. But I think any bitch that was super awesome and could far...why would you pass up the chance to compete her. Just because she can compete does not mean she will throw herself. I hear some breeders hide behind this. Because when I see thier females...I would not waste my time competeting them either.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Kadi Thingvall said quote "As far as why most people work males, I think it's a couple of things:
historically most handlers were men, and they prefer not to work a female for the same reason they don't want to work a neutered male.
males tend to be larger and more physically imposing
males don't have heat cycles twice a year, and breeding takes 20-30 minutes out of their life not 3-4 months" unquote

I still think this has validity! Just like no self-respecting he-man would be seen walking out with a mere poodle!, even if it were intact :-D

It's a pity really that it was an "all-male show" for many years, 2-legged, as 4-legged. The 2-legged have achieved their goals but the 4-legged ones are far behind and unjustly so.

I still think that clubs run by by only female species would be enough for me to turn my back on the sport, though :twisted:


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