# Adult-Onset Demodex



## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

I have 2 labs. OK, legally one is my friends, but I still call him "mine".

The dogs are from the same breeder. They are the same age and are believed to be littermates. I'm planning on going to the breeder this week and getting papers. (Curious to see what I find).

Dog #1: 5 year old intact male Labrador Retriever. Trim 65 - 70 lbs. Spontaneously started getting generalized demodex, spread FAST! He was on cephalexin for an ear infection and the owner believed the antibiotics were the problem. She stopped antibiotics (with vet recommendation). Immediately she thought it had improved and waived further treatment. Within a week she called to start him on ivermectin. He's on 1.6 mL Vetrimec 1% ivermectin solution. (This dog had demodex on his ear swab!  ) Dog #2 is on some crap food - Purina One I think?

Dog #2: 5 year old spayed female Labrador Retriever. Slender 55 - 60 lbs. A month or more after Dog #1 started having symptoms, I noted a dime-sized dot of hair loss over her ribcage with slightly pink skin. 4 skin scrapes and 2 cultures later.... it's demodex. Started her on ivermection 1.5 mL Vetrimec, and now day 7 into treatment. I noticed another minor spot, but my vet looked her over and found it over much of her body. The hair loss is nearly unnoticeable at this point. Dog #2 is on SD High Energy. Compares to NutriSource Super Performance that I fed before, but saves the 60 mile drive for dog food~

These dogs live 50 miles apart. One is mosly rural environment. The other is mostly urban. Both dogs have SOLID nerves and stress is not an issue. There have been no major changes in eaither household. The dogs have met once while Dog #1 was affected and Dog #2 was not affected. They did not have physical contact at any time. Dog #2 did not go into Dog #1's home environment. (We walked through a shopping mall together for some refresher training.)

Both dogs have been vaccinated against rabies, distemper/parvo combo - can't remember which one, lepto. Dog #2 has also been vaccinated against lyme, corona, bordatella. Both dogs had 4DX (lyme, anaplasma, heartworm, ehrlicia) tests done this spring and were negative. Dog #2 is at a vet clinic frequently. She is our demo-dog for interns, and gets frequent grooming.

My vet was able to find enough cases of major organ failure, cancer, or other major illness about 6 months after adult-onset demodex. We ran baseline bloodwork on Dog #1. Everything normal. I have not done basic bloodwork on Dog #2 yet. Probably this afternoon.

This is extremely important! Both dogs are service dogs. The handler of Dog #1 is now completely home-bound because of this. The replacement value of these dogs is in the $50,000 range, plus our safety depends on these dogs. You can imagine our concern!

There is no limit to vet care expense. Am I missing anything? Any obscure ideas? Thoughts?


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## Gina Pasieka (Apr 25, 2010)

Are these dogs related? I see that they are the same age, so I am assuming that they are. This is may unfortunately be a genetic issue with their immune systems. I would definitely not breed these dogs, nor breed their parents again. The ivermectin is the cheapest and most effective way to go. You will likely need to continue the ivermectin for weeks. Good luck...demodex can be a very difficult to treat.


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## Anna Kasho (Jan 16, 2008)

From a groomer's perspective, I have seen 3 dogs with demodex. The usual thing vets prescribe seems to be 1-2x weekly lime sulfur baths, or insecticide dip followed by the sulfur baths. It takes several months to resolve, if it does.

Some people also report improvement using a peroxide and borax dip. I forget the exact details, but you can google it, lots of info out there.


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## Jenny Thorp (Nov 8, 2008)

Just a random thought ...
You ran bloodwork on dog #1 , did that also include a thyroid panel ?

Hypothyroidism seems to make many dogs more susceptible to health issues. Under active thyroid makes for a reduced metabolism and immune function.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Gina Pasieka said:


> Are these dogs related? I see that they are the same age, so I am assuming that they are. This is may unfortunately be a genetic issue with their immune systems. I would definitely not breed these dogs, nor breed their parents again. The ivermectin is the cheapest and most effective way to go. You will likely need to continue the ivermectin for weeks. Good luck...demodex can be a very difficult to treat.


Yes, number one in everything I've seen about adult-onset demodex is not to breed the dog.


I do have some saved reading material and will dig it up.

It can point to an internal illness, including thyroid disease and cancer.



eta

http://www.televets.com/articles/dogs/demodectic-mange-in-dogs.html


Thyroid problem:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10649597


http://www.petmd.com/dog/general-health/evr_dg_demodectic_mange_in_dogs

http://www.veterinaryhelp.net/articles/demodex-mites-canine.html

from http://www.gsdhelp.info/paras/demodex.html 
QUESTION: What about the dog that suddenly develops Demodex later in life and never had it as a puppy?
ANSWER: This is called Adult-onset Demodicosis and is most commonly seen in what are assumed to be healthy dogs but that in reality are actually affected with an underlying pathology or immune compromising disorder. Therefore, whenever a veterinarian is presented with a case of Demodex in an adult dog the doctor is alerted to the possibility that there is a potentially serious underlying disease going on that has compromised the dog's immune integrity.


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## Randy Allen (Apr 18, 2008)

I assume there were skin scrapings taken and examined to determine what the cause of the manage is.
Demodex is not contiguous, there is no need to isolate the dog/s.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Good catch, Randy. I hadn't noticed this statement that kind of assumes contagiousness:

_"They did not have physical contact at any time. Dog #2 did not go into Dog #1's home environment."_


I think the links I posted* clarify that most (or all) dogs have the mites. 

Kinda like yeast infections: A yeast "infection" is actually a yeast overgrowth, or an imbalance that has allowed ever-present yeast to take over.


JMO!


eta

* The first one says:
_Many veterinarians believe that all dogs have small numbers of demodex mites residing in the skin and that having a few mites is normal and common. It is when immune related -- or nutritional or environmental -- stresses impact the dog that visible skin lesions from mite infestations become noticeable. _


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Gina Pasieka said:


> Are these dogs related? I see that they are the same age, so I am assuming that they are. This is may unfortunately be a genetic issue with their immune systems. I would definitely not breed these dogs, nor breed their parents again. The ivermectin is the cheapest and most effective way to go. You will likely need to continue the ivermectin for weeks. Good luck...demodex can be a very difficult to treat.


Gina, they are definitely "half-siblings" and are likely littermates. I'm hoping to finally get their AKC papers and compare pedrigrees this week. Was supposed to get Dog #2's AKC papers a year ago!!


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Randy Allen said:


> I assume there were skin scrapings taken and examined to determine what the cause of the manage is.
> Demodex is not contiguous, there is no need to isolate the dog/s.


It is not "contagious" but my fiance/vet DID find enough evidence to support the statement that LOCALIZED adult-onset demodex can be caused by contact with a dog with generalized demodex. If this happens it is self-limiting and requires no treatment.

My fiance first assumed it was a localized spot. (So I'm the extremist this time. :? ) I insisted on the ivermectin and 6 days later - yesterday - he checks her over and says it has spread enough to be generalized.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Really worrying about what the hidden reason is. Dog #2's bloodwork is off to the lab tonight. I'm expecting normal. I'm worried about what they will be in 6 months! I'll read the links, hopefully hints on other tests to watch.

RE: breeding. Sire's side is right out of Baraccuda Blue. I don't have the rest of the pedigree. Dog #2 I got for $500+spay. (Woot! Price was $3,000+ before they learned she carried some genetic eye defect.) She is spayed. Dog #1 is intact. The owner has no breeding rights. I have the right to sieze any puppies out of the dog. She's a sweet girl, no worries. If I get proof of what I believe to be true, I'll have him neutered.

It's very sad, people put a lot of work into this bloodline. I love the bloodline. Rock solid steady dogs. Temperament is p.e.r.f.e.c.t. for what I want. But with health issues... how could I ever go back into pedigrees and find the source of these problems??


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## Randy Allen (Apr 18, 2008)

This is what caught my attention:
"The dogs have met once while Dog #1 was affected and Dog #2 was not affected."

And goes on to say that no physical contact was made, but..........does that mean sniffing and rubbing against each other or no more than a nose to nose hello?
Just the meeting before #2 came down with it is suspicious enough in circumstance that I'd probably start thinking about and looking for sarcoptic manage.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Has the thyroid panel been done?


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Randy Allen said:


> This is what caught my attention:
> "The dogs have met once while Dog #1 was affected and Dog #2 was not affected."
> 
> And goes on to say that no physical contact was made, but..........does that mean sniffing and rubbing against each other or no more than a nose to nose hello?
> Just the meeting before #2 came down with it is suspicious enough in circumstance that I'd probably start thinking about and looking for sarcoptic manage.


Strictly no touching. Not even nose-to-nose.

This shows my ignorance: we got the little guys on slides. It would be possible to tell the difference between demodectic and sarcaoptic under the microscope?


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Has the thyroid panel been done?


Not yet. On the list now that I'm reading your info. (and thank you)


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Anne Vaini said:


> Not yet. On the list now that I'm reading your info. (and thank you)


Nevermind, thyroid panel has been sent off already. We're doing an Amitraz dip tomorrow. fun, fun.


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## Anna Kasho (Jan 16, 2008)

Anne Vaini said:


> Strictly no touching. Not even nose-to-nose.
> 
> This shows my ignorance: we got the little guys on slides. It would be possible to tell the difference between demodectic and sarcaoptic under the microscope?


Totally.

Demodex canis:
http://www.icb.usp.br/~marcelcp/demodex.htm

Sarcoptes scabiei:
http://www.icb.usp.br/~marcelcp/Sarcoptes.htm

Sarcoptes is very VERY itchy, miserable for any critter affected. Demodex isn't like that.


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Demodectic mange is caused by a tiny mite, Demodex canis, too small to be seen with the naked eye. Nearly all dogs acquire mange mites from their mother during the first few days of life. These mites are considered normal skin fauna when present in small numbers. They produce disease only when an abnormal immune system allows their numbers to get out of control. This occurs primarily in puppies and in adult dogs with lowered immunity. A high incidence of mange in certain bloodlines suggests that some purebred dogs are born with an inherited immune susceptibility

I copied and pasted it from another site. It tales the story. 

We have treated no less than a dozen cases with 100% success using a topical treatment. I don't like slamming my dogs with ivomec and the rest. Hope this helps.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Brian Anderson said:


> We have treated no less than a dozen cases with 100% success using a topical treatment. I don't like slamming my dogs with ivomec and the rest. Hope this helps.


What was the topical used?


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

> This is called Adult-onset Demodicosis and is most commonly seen in what are assumed to be healthy dogs but that in reality are actually affected with an underlying pathology or immune compromising disorder. Therefore, whenever a veterinarian is presented with a case of Demodex in an adult dog the doctor is alerted to the possibility that there is a potentially serious underlying disease going on that has compromised the dog's immune integrity. Such afflictions as cancer, Hypothyroidism, Systemic Fungal Disease, adrenal gland diseases and even exposure to prescribed cortisone medications can allow previously innocuous resident mites to reproduce rapidly and cause visible skin disease. Adult-onset demodicosis is not a genetically programmed disorder. These cases can be difficult to cure unless the underlying stressor is resolved successfully.


I think this quote from one of Connie's links will help me talk to the breeder better.


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Anne Vaini said:


> What was the topical used?


http://www.nustock.com/

You can get it online and most feed stores carry it too. Best of luck with your dogs....


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## Gina Pasieka (Apr 25, 2010)

Wow...going forthe amitraz already. Personally, I hate the dip. It is a neurotoxin, so I would rather wait and see if you not an improvment with the ivermectin. The other thing would be to give them each a weekly bath with a benzoyl peroxide shampoo to help open up the hair follicles and flush the buggers out. As someone mentioned before...scabies is extremely itchy and also very contagious, including to people, so please be sure which type of mange you are dealing with.


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

I wont use Amitraz unless there is no option. Thankfully there are options that are not nearly as potentialy harmful as Amitraz. Again I am not a VET and do not pretend to be one. I am only offering my actual experience.


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## Jhun Brioso (Dec 28, 2009)

During the early 2000's i got very involved w/ this type of mange.. Some of my dogs respond fairly w/ 
ivermectin ( Ivomec ) some did not. Then one of my vet recommended me a topical spot-on for dogs. ADVOCATE was the name& manufactured by BAYER. Dog's that are affected demodex should never be bred specially females as females usually tranfers this disease to their pups. Demodectic mange is much difficult to treat compared to sarcoptic mange.. I also notice that eventhough a particular dog respond fairly to the treatment, demodex still pops out when the individual's immune system weakens.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Jhun Brioso said:


> During the early 2000's i got very involved w/ this type of mange.. Some of my dogs respond fairly w/
> ivermectin ( Ivomec ) some did not. Then one of my vet recommended me a topical spot-on for dogs. ADVOCATE was the name& manufactured by BAYER. Dog's that are affected demodex should never be bred specially females as females usually tranfers this disease to their pups. Demodectic mange is much difficult to treat compared to sarcoptic mange.. I also notice that eventhough a particular dog respond fairly to the treatment, demodex still pops out when the individual's immune system weakens.


Advocate, using brand names, is Advantage + Proheart. Moxidectin scares the pants off me, since a friend of mine used it (as ProHeart 6) on her service dog and the dog dies from it. The company would only pay the purchase price of the dog and my friend ended up divorced, jobless, homeless, and her kids taken away because she could not funtion without her service dog and the company would not help her replace her dog. Heartbreaking.

I know there is a new Fronline coming out with Amitraz in it. Impatiently waiting... My vet told me to expect this is be chronic. BIG problem. Very worried about what is going on with her immune system!


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Brian Anderson said:


> http://www.nustock.com/
> 
> You can get it online and most feed stores carry it too. Best of luck with your dogs....


Thanks. Lots of sulfur products out there.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Gina Pasieka said:


> Wow...going forthe amitraz already. Personally, I hate the dip. It is a neurotoxin, so I would rather wait and see if you not an improvment with the ivermectin. The other thing would be to give them each a weekly bath with a benzoyl peroxide shampoo to help open up the hair follicles and flush the buggers out. As someone mentioned before...scabies is extremely itchy and also very contagious, including to people, so please be sure which type of mange you are dealing with.


No itching on either dogs - or me! 

We're going after this aggressively because major hair loss means I can't work the dog in public (she is a service dog). _Which means I can't work or go anywhere_. Dog #1's owner is already homebound for the same reason.

For the record, Dog #1 is getting lime-sulfur dips and ivermectin.


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## Jhun Brioso (Dec 28, 2009)

Anne Vaini said:


> Advocate, using brand names, is Advantage + Proheart. Moxidectin scares the pants off me, since a friend of mine used it (as ProHeart 6) on her service dog and the dog dies from it. The company would only pay the purchase price of the dog and my friend ended up divorced, jobless, homeless, and her kids taken away because she could not funtion without her service dog and the company would not help her replace her dog. Heartbreaking.
> 
> I know there is a new Fronline coming out with Amitraz in it. Impatiently waiting... My vet told me to expect this is be chronic. BIG problem. Very worried about what is going on with her immune system!


Anne: I'm very sorry for what had happened to your friend.. Hope she sees the light again.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Brian Anderson said:


> http://www.nustock.com/
> 
> You can get it online and most feed stores carry it too. Best of luck with your dogs....


Hmmm...it doesn't really even say what the stuff is exactly. Other than it's "proven" (by who?) and there are testimonials. Oh, and they'll sell you "cosmetically defective" product on ebay. Uh...


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Hmmm...it doesn't really even say what the stuff is exactly. Other than it's "proven" (by who?) and there are testimonials. Oh, and they'll sell you "cosmetically defective" product on ebay. Uh...


if it works it works, I doubt there is a placebo effect with dogs..


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

"If it works" is the key operating statement. And call me crazy for not wanting to use mystery chemicals probably mixed up in someone's basement on my dog.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

I'd want to know what it is. JMHO.

Never been comfortable with hidden ingredients, "proprietary formulae," etc.


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## Jenny Thorp (Nov 8, 2008)

Connie Sutherland said:


> I'd want to know what it is. JMHO.
> 
> Never been comfortable with hidden ingredients, "proprietary formulae," etc.


I too am leary about hidden ingredients.
Heaven forbid the dog had a reaction to the product.
How's a vet supposed to treat a medication reaction if they don't know the chemicals/ingredients used ?


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> "If it works" is the key operating statement. And call me crazy for not wanting to use mystery chemicals probably mixed up in someone's basement on my dog.


What mystery? I have talked to the guy who makes it several times. Its virgin sulpher and oil no mysterious ingredients. It works I have used it for years. As i said in my post and I will say again. I am not a vet and not pretending to be one. I have no affiliation with the makers of the product. Choose it or something else makes no difference to me. Simply interjecting with solutions that have worked for me.


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Connie Sutherland said:


> I'd want to know what it is. JMHO.
> 
> Never been comfortable with hidden ingredients, "proprietary formulae," etc.


Then I suggest giving them a call. They are very friendly and helpful.


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## Carolyn Pettigrew (Dec 7, 2010)

The ingredients for Nu-Stock are listed online and on the package as sulfur, pine oil, and mineral oil.

The Mitaban/amitraz dips are harsh; if it is feasible the Ivermectin, lime-sulfur dips (these are always so much fun to do!), and benzoyl peroxide shampoo (Pyoben is the brand name) combination should yield results. Sometimes the dog needs multiple rounds of Ivermectin and ongoing treatment in order to finally have two clear rounds of skin scrapes. You can supplement with things that boost weak immune systems; check with the vet about Omega 3s, milk thistle, l-lysine, etc. as well as antibiotics, since secondary skin infections are so common with generalized demodex. 

Yes, as someone mentioned, sarcoptic mange is much easier and quicker to fix, just contagious. It's not very often that scabies gets to be the preferable option... !

I also have never seen or heard a dog with Demodex giving it to a healthy dog, and have had several dogs recovering from mange in my life along with non-affected dogs.

Sent from my ATRIX using Tapatalk


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Carolyn Pettigrew said:


> .... sulfur, pine oil, and mineral oil.


Could you link me to this?  I admit I did not find the ingredient list.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

I likewise couldn't find it the first time as I was looking at the tabs on the left side (it's on the top far right). But the MSDS said some interesting things:



> *Acute Skin:
> Not anticipated under normal use conditions.** May cause irritation in sensitive individuals.*
> Acute Inhalation:
> May cause respiratory tract irritation.
> ...


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## Carolyn Pettigrew (Dec 7, 2010)

I'm sorry, but I don't know how to insert the link since I am not at my computer.... but the (fragrant!) tube I am holding says sulfur 73%, pine oil 2%, mineral oil 25%.

I have heard amazing stories about this product for a number of uses, which is why I bought it. It did not work for my dog in the way I was hoping. I never have tried it for demodex. 

Sent from my ATRIX using Tapatalk


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## Carolyn Pettigrew (Dec 7, 2010)

It seems like pretty harsh, quite drying stuff to put on already-tender and irritated skin... I might not be surprised if it really does kill mites. The aroma certainly lasted through several hand washings and dog baths as well as a few washes of all fabric that the treated dog touched! 

To the OP: Yes, Demodex is awful and can take some time to kick. Sometimes they may get little localized spot flare-ups again throughout their lives. Any support from appropriate supplements and quality diet to help maximize the dog's immune system can't hurt. Hope both dogs recover soon.

Sent from my ATRIX using Tapatalk


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Chatted with the breeder today. They are really, really nice people. They haven't had anyone report demodex. They have not produced any puppies in 4 years, so all would be adult. ie, every puppy they sold is now old enough to show adult-onset demodex.

Learned the two dogs are only 1/2 related. Same stud, different and very unrelated bitches. 

I have no idea if this might be related: That stud went blind. Dog #2's littermate went blind. Vet diagnosis was macular degeneration. Got the computer stuff - receipts off the vet work, but they didn't pull the dead animal files on these dogs. :evil: I want the CHART, not the list of services they did!

I saw Dog #1 today, his first places of hair loss are much improved, still some naked places and some pink skin in a few spots. Dog #2 has no pink skin, no further hair loss.

In other news, Dog #2 is OFA good. I had no idea she had been OFA'd. \\/


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

My dad swore up and down that a good dip in sulphur and used motor oil would cure any mange.
I'm guessing that anything that only got close to killing them made them stronger. :grin:


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Bob Scott said:


> My dad swore up and down that a good dip in sulphur and used motor oil would cure any mange.
> I'm guessing that anything that only got close to killing them made them stronger. :grin:


Motor oil?! lol But then again, a non-toxic treatment for (human) lice is to saturate the hair with veggie oil, wrap it up in plastic and suffocate the little buggers to death. I guess it *makes sense*. On someone else's dog, not mine. :lol:


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Anne Vaini said:


> Motor oil?! lol But then again, a non-toxic treatment for (human) lice is to saturate the hair with veggie oil, wrap it up in plastic and suffocate the little buggers to death. I guess it *makes sense*. On someone else's dog, not mine. :lol:


You have to remember that "non-toxic" wasn't a word I knew much of, if at all as a kid. In my dad's day you'd probably be looked at like your crazy for even thinking about it.
When I was a printer we washed our hands in straight acetone to get out some of the ink. I hear they wear rubber gloves now just to keep the ink off their hands. Sissys! :lol: :wink:


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