# What's your definition of hard and dominant?



## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

What's your definition of hard and dominant? 

what are the clues to know that you have a dog that is hard and dominant?


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

If you ask if your dog is hard and dominant, then you do not have one. LOL


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

*Some Behaviors that May Indicate Dominance:

Pushing through doors, inside or outside, before you.

Jumping or reaching for food or treat before it is put down or in reach.

Putting his or her feet on you, standing on or pawing at you.

Barking at you when told to do something or when he or she wants something.

Trying to be physically taller than you.

Getting on furniture before you or before being given permission.

Reluctance to move from a spot you want to sit on, walk through or put something in.

Reluctance to release food or toys.

Staring at you; prolonged eye contact except when you ask for it in a training or working situation.

Reluctance to obey simple, normal commands such as sit, go-out, get-off, etc. May be a refusal or slow compliance.

Marking (urinating or defecating) in house, marking your personal belongings or bed.

Running into you or jumping on you hard during play. This is a display of physical superiority and rights.

Growling or barking at you during play.

Sexual behaviors, such as mounting, with an inappropriate partner. Putting her or his head on or over your head or shoulders.

Holding chews or toys against you while chewing or playing with toy.

Any attempt to shove you out of the way when walking, sitting with, moving past or laying with you.

Mouthing you at any time, any placing of her or his mouth on you whether in protest, during play or during petting.

Eating before you.

Not accepting petting or touching on top of his or her head or body.

Getting playful or cute instead of obeying when told to do things. The dog may obey briefly and immediately resume previous behavior.

Guarding food, toys or locations that they see as theirs.*

A hard dog recovers quickly if not instantly.


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> If you ask if your dog is hard and dominant, then you do not have one. LOL



I'm not asking for me... just starting a topic per my note in the other thread. I know I don't have a super hard dog but he's no softy either. On a scale of 1-5 I'm told he's about a 3, some days less some days more.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Chris Michalek said:


> what are the clues to know that you have a dog that is hard and dominant?


They do not necessarily coincide.


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## Emilio Rodriguez (Jan 16, 2009)

Interesting list Michelle.

Some behaviors associated with dominance that really indicate a problem:
Refusing the down command.
Warning while complying with a command.
Warning or attack when attempting to place dog in down or other positions.
Warning or attack when being touched in certain areas of the body such as; chest, feet, head.
Taking over preferred locations in the house like the couch and warning or attack when being told to move.
Warning or attack when taking the dog by the collar and the dog knows that it will forced to do something it doesn't want to do at the moment, for example being pulled away from the door during an aggressive display when someone comes to the door.

A dog can be dominant but not necessarily exhibit problem behavior. I like some dominance in the dog. It's the kind of thing that will make it to put his mouth on a strangers hand who tries to grab it by the collar.

BTW dominant with dogs and dominant with handler are separate issues.

When you ask about hard do you mean handler hard or hard like in bitework?


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

I would look at hard as the ability to deal with pain, yet others may look at it as the ability to run through walls! The two are different in that dominant to a bad point might make the dog too aggressive to handle. Interesting question...


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## Mo Earle (Mar 1, 2008)

my dog Cammo-GSD-2.5 years old now, is a hard dog and dominant at least IMO- possessive of his toys, food,his world- walks around with his tail up high, will stare you down- - during bite work- if I restrain him back longer than he likes,not good... he has turned around and bitten me..(no respect!!)...he is the type of dog, during bite work, we do not have to frustrate him or want to frustrate him to go for the guy [-X....an awesome dog- I just love him, training his obedience was Fun:-o....but we have come a long long way since I took him in at 18 mos old. .....


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

where we first noticed hardness in my dog was during a training session when he was about 14mo old. The helper was agitating the dog and told me to let go of the lead during a bark and hold session. The dog kept coming in dirty and nipped at the helper so he got cleaned up with the stick. Now my dog is bleeding quite profusely from his mouth, all the stick hit did was make the dog fight harder, he went up and under the sleeve and sunk his teeth into the shoulder of the helper. The dog got whacked again several times and he fought even harder without letting loose on his bite. We outted him and he came back hard after that, we got a nice bite on the sleeve and I took him off the field, after that and we haven't been as hard on him since. That session was the first time I saw real aggression in my dog.


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

Emelio, what you posted sounds like Dominant Aggressive, not just Dominant in itself. My dog is not aggressive towards me whatsoever, just very pushy.


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## Julie Ann Alvarez (Aug 4, 2007)

Hard and Dominant.

I do not see a dominant dog as necessarily an aggressive dog but one that is super confident and always tries to dominate the helper. Brings the fight and then some. Super confident and cocky. A Dominant dog would not like to be restrained (rolling would be quite difficult), physical corrections would be fought (leash biting/fighting). He would need a frim consitant hand in daily life and on the field but could be a super star in the right hands.

Combine it with hard- and you will likely go to e-collar corections to avoid the fight. He will recover quickly and learn fast. Maybe difficult to use compulsion in your OB training since he fights so damn much. A hard dog will absorb the pressure at training (wheather or not it is coming from the helper or the handler) and still come out on top.

My AB Lasher is I believe a combination of both to a fault. He never has been scared or shown fear in any of his work. I have taken him out of state to trial for his BST when he had just turned 2. He tried to punk the helper. He could have been a much better trialing dog in the right hands. He is a very selfish dog who is also very loving. He is super friendly.

Our other AB is not as hard and will show dominant aggressive behavior to me should I push him to far. He is fine with my husband but the husband never pushed him. He is also dog aggresive and I believe this is all a temperment flaw. I would never consider breeding him or even keeping him but my husband almost divorced me when I was going to sell him so he stayed. He is a very affectionate dog and is always seeking out petting/scratching. He is also a compulsive licker at times to whom ever is petting him. He is super friendly to his family and friends and does not like strangers a whole lot.

The GSD is hard (can take a pretty significant correction) and recover well with out the dominance. He will hump another dog but when it comes to training he is usally pretty compliant to me (I love this about him). He at 20 months still isn't marking his territory or lifting his leg. He is a selfish dog as well but will bring me the ball over and over. If I ignore him he sits at my feet and wines. He likes to be petted but never relaxes enough (yet) to fall asleep in the house. He is super friendly.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

My opinion on this:
A hard dog is one that has tunnel vision. No matter what you do he is going to do it his way. He will take a heavy hand and not think to much about that until he gets frustrated to the point that he thinks he has no other options other than coming to get you to make you stop.

A dominant dog may only be dominate over toys, food, affection and things like that. This same dog may not be dominate over everything.

My male, Bentley was never hard towards me but would only take so much from someone else although it would take a lot to push him there. On the other hand he IS male dog aggressive. Loves the female dogs and all the puppies but will threaten another male that has size or is mature.


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## Mike Di Rago (Jan 9, 2009)

From an article by Armin Winkler on hardness
The Swiss behaviorist Dr. E. Seiferle defined this term the following way. "The ability to take negative influences and experiences such as pain, punishment, defeat in a fight without being affected significantly at the moment they happen or in the long term." In this definition, it is very clear, that the dog in question has to perceive the influence he is experiencing as adverse or negative and deal with it without being significantly affected by it. 

And on dominance
Dominance behavior stems from an internal urge to prove superiority and status. In discussion I use the phrase "this dog likes to throw his weight around.''

I like both definitions.

As far as some other behaviors that show aggression, I don't think they are all linked to dominance. Some dogs show aggression simply because they can't take pressure (fear biters).
JMO
Mike


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## Emilio Rodriguez (Jan 16, 2009)

Mike Di Rago said:


> From an article by Armin Winkler on hardness
> The Swiss behaviorist Dr. E. Seiferle defined this term the following way. "The ability to take negative influences and experiences such as pain, punishment, defeat in a fight without being affected significantly at the moment they happen or in the long term." In this definition, it is very clear, that the dog in question has to perceive the influence he is experiencing as adverse or negative and deal with it without being significantly affected by it.


Good explanation, I like it. It covers both scenarios, hardness to the handler and hardness to other influences such as in bitework. However how does one define the difference, based on that explanation, in a dog that is handler soft/sensitive yet is hard in his bitwork?


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> If you ask if your dog is hard and dominant, then you do not have one. LOL


Yeah - then I guess I'm under the bed asking if I can come out:mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

As I have always understood it, dominance is a behaviour that stems from dominating the pack, i.e. evolves from the pack structure. Aggression against the helper is another issue. Aggression against other dogs is also another issue.

If I even start to think he's dominant - I've halfway lost the battle. I'm dominant in the pack (Toni's not listening thank goodness).

If I have a dog that is determined to climb higher in the ladder and I don't stop him, he dominates me but how would he do this with someone outside the pack???


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## Mike Di Rago (Jan 9, 2009)

Emilio,
The way I would explain it is that they are two seperate things. The dog can be hard in his work but not dominant. His reaction to his handler is subordinate but he may still be hard in his work. A hard dog doesn't need to be dominant and a dominant dog isn't always hard.

Mike


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Mike - I see it like this, too.

A dog that is not allowed to become dominant in the pack can prove to be a hard challenger when faced with a helper - here I don't check him, I let him fight.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Mike Di Rago said:


> A hard dog doesn't need to be dominant and a dominant dog isn't always hard.
> 
> Mike


'Zackly. They do not necessarily coincide.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Just as as point of clarification, I would argue that many dogs aren't necessarily dominant, they've just been rewarded in the past or just not corrected or shown a different way. I see this all the time with pet dogs that people swear up and down are dominant but upon closer look, they just got inadvertently rewarded for what used to be maybe puppy behavior, like mouthiness. Yes, we're discussing working dogs, but for the lay person, they often confuse dominant behavior for just bad manners. There's not all that many truly dominant dogs out there. JMHO.


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## Emilio Rodriguez (Jan 16, 2009)

Gillian Schuler said:


> If I even start to think he's dominant - I've halfway lost the battle.


Very well said. Being in correct position relative to your dog is a feeling. At times I've had to fake that feeling though.


Mike Di Rago said:


> Emilio,
> The way I would explain it is that they are two seperate things. The dog can be hard in his work but not dominant. His reaction to his handler is subordinate but he may still be hard in his work. A hard dog doesn't need to be dominant and a dominant dog isn't always hard.
> 
> Mike


You misunderstood. I wasn't including hard and dominant in my question. I was talking about handler hardness and hardness in bitework which IMO are independent. You can have a dog that's very sensitive to the handler but strong in bitework.

The questions posed in this thread are good but it complicates matters having asked about both hardness and dominance at the same time. They're two separate things although sometimes some blending occurs.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

A hard dog is not one who ignores corrections, on the contrary, to me, a hard dog is one who recovers quickly, and can work through, rather than fall apart or ignore or pout from strong corrections.


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

My dog is dominant but almost handler soft ( I have been on his ass from day 1 though, I control everything), he can deffinatly take a good hard correction from me in stride but it isn't needed often and I can get him off a dirty bite usually with a NO! He was alot harder to deal with when he was a pup I guess, before he knew where the lines were drawn. He humped the man of the house, who was also his helper 3-4 times but never me. He wasn't fun to train in OB at first but has come around. I think it helped once we used what he wanted for a reward (a bite) instead of fighting him. He's deff not handler hard and would never think about coming up the line at me (be the last thing he ever did) and he knows it.


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

*I wanted to go threw these for my own amussment...*


*Pushing through doors, inside or outside, before you. Still working on this one

Jumping or reaching for food or treat before it is put down or in reach. This one too

Putting his or her feet on you, standing on or pawing at you. Doesn't do it too much to me but alwasy keeps his feet on the helper

Barking at you when told to do something or when he or she wants something. Only when I take his toy and hide it

Trying to be physically taller than you. I still can't sit on the ground when my dog is lose

Getting on furniture before you or before being given permission. Never been allowed and he knows I'll kick his ass accross the room if he tried.

Reluctance to move from a spot you want to sit on, walk through or put something in. This is why I call him Dickweed, he lays in doorways and paths I walk and wont move until I kick him

Reluctance to release food or toys. Never with food, I work this with every puppy I have, I must be able to take the yummiest bone from them with no qualms, then I will promtly give it back, I don't suggest anyone but small children to try the same. He's still reluctant to out his toys sometimes, I go back to choking off instead of asking for awhile.

Staring at you; prolonged eye contact except when you ask for it in a training or working situation. My dog has always look me directly in the eye on his terms, getting it in OB was...different.

Reluctance to obey simple, normal commands such as sit, go-out, get-off, etc. May be a refusal or slow compliance. When he was younger YES! He gave me the finger constantly.

Marking (urinating or defecating) in house, marking your personal belongings or bed. Shit in his crate the minute I walked away after puting him in it for months between 3-7 months old. I started to leave him sit in it and he stopped. He has pissed next to my bed 3 times.

Running into you or jumping on you hard during play. This is a display of physical superiority and rights. I thought this was him just being big and Goofey. 

Growling or barking at you during play. Never

Sexual behaviors, such as mounting, with an inappropriate partner. Putting her or his head on or over your head or shoulders. He will always go for the high station over my head, if I am in a chair he will put his front feet on the chair and even try to put his feet on my shoulders but never tried to mount me. He did like I said try to mount my 6'2" BF when he was 4-6 months old and just recently my daughter when she was playing on the ground at the snow.

Holding chews or toys against you while chewing or playing with toy. Never really pais attention to that but he doesn't sit next to me much, he opts to plop down about 10 feet or do away and watch me.

Any attempt to shove you out of the way when walking, sitting with, moving past or laying with you. Getting better but yes.

Mouthing you at any time, any placing of her or his mouth on you whether in protest, during play or during petting. More as a pup, but sometimes when I scratch him he nibbles me back.

Eating before you. My dogs don't eat or live inside, so no.

Not accepting petting or touching on top of his or her head or body. He's gotten used to it and deals with it

Getting playful or cute instead of obeying when told to do things. The dog may obey briefly and immediately resume previous behavior. Not really, if so only when he is rambunctious when I first let him out of the kennel or into the house.

Guarding food, toys or locations that they see as theirs. YES YES YES. He can't be fed with another dog, the other dog wont get a bite of food, doesn't share well with others and don't even walk up to his kennel even if he does know you.*

So I guess the majority of that stuff hit the mark with my dog. I have seen other lists with more aggressive tendancies on them but not of that applies to my dog, he is not aggressive towards me ever.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Michelle Kehoe said:


> *Eating before you.*


How could a dog choose to do that :lol:


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## Chad Byerly (Jun 24, 2008)

*Re: What's your dominant?*

http://www.avsabonline.org/avsabonline/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=80&Itemid=366

Click on *Dominance Position Statement* for new thoughts on "dominance" from Veterinary Behaviorists.


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> How could a dog choose to do that :lol:


hey maybe she's one of the 10,000 applicants for a warehouse job and goes dumpster diving for meals....ya never know.:-k


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

i have had a really HARD dog, and a really SOFT dog (more the latter than former).but i've never had a dog really attempt to be "dominant" to me. maybe just my talent in choosing rescue/shelter dogs....right..or perhaps i'm dominant enough to put 99% of dogs in their place. 

i have had 2 dogs in a small animal clinic setting convince me that i didn't want to fight them; one a shar-pei and one a BC bitch who was brought in for euthanasia after she'd whelped her last litter (and was indeed, a psycho-bitch). 

at any rate, the hardest dog i ever had (for those of you who haven't heard about her before), i pretty much busted her in the head for 3 years, she didn't care much about it, but figured it out (yes. she was half Rottie, half GSD. $25....) and never cowered, never backed up from anything--best dog i EVER had. never came up a leash at me, she always seemed to know a head-bust was a fair correction (hurt me more than it hurt her...yada, yada). 

handler-soft dogs are much more of a challenge to me because i tend to be so dominant. i'd probably get really hurt with a truly dominant dog--let''s fight, and i'm not smart enough to quit. had a guy tell me once that there's a difference between tough and stupid..this was after i'd walked on a broken leg for 2 wks. 

so "hard' and "dominant" are 2 different things to me. i don't think i'd be good with a "dominant" dog--we'd hurt each other.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

*Re: What's your dominant?*



Chad Byerly said:


> http://www.avsabonline.org/avsabonline/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=80&Itemid=366
> 
> Click on *Dominance Position Statement* for new thoughts on "dominance" from Veterinary Behaviorists.


Particularly from a pet perspective, I would agree with a lot of it in that as I said before, I think a lot of the things that average pet owners think is "dominance" is simply the fact that previous behavior had been intentionally or unintentionally rewarded. Like jumping up is no longer desirable when they are a teenager or adult, but it was cute when they were a puppy, so it was unintentionally rewarded. I also do appreciate that they separate leadership versus dominance as I think that's probably fine. As I said before, I think *truly* dominant dogs are relatively uncommon within the general pet dog population, though they are certainly out there. 

However, in general, there are many veterinary behaviorists that I disagree with for a number of reasons. I feel that they are (in general, I'm sure there are exceptions) more into working with your average pet problems and less willing to try anything that involves adversives, even if it helps. I just don't really care for the inflexibility, so that's one reason I'm not really going into that specialty with a residency and all that. Plus behavior is the lowest paid boarded specialty and nutrition is the highest. :mrgreen:  I'd still like to do some behavior consults in practice, even if I'm not a board certified behaviorist.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Dominant behaviour often has nothing to do with a dog being truely dominant. 
Often times it's nothing more then a dog that gets away with a lot of crap because of inexpierienced handlers or a plain lack of leadership.


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## Tanya Beka (Aug 12, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> Dominant behaviour often has nothing to do with a dog being truely dominant.
> Often times it's nothing more then a dog that gets away with a lot of crap because of inexpierienced handlers or a plain lack of leadership.


Well said, I agree.


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

Hey guys, I didn't make up the list I searched the internet for one and there are many, this one seemed less about the aggressive stuff and more detailed. I didn't get the eat first thing either, you'd have to be a total idiot to feed your dogs before you sit down to eat, especially if he's already a jerk. But then...I have seen people give their dogs food as they are cooking it! :roll:


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

*Re: What's your dominant?*



Maren Bell Jones said:


> Particularly from a pet perspective, I would agree with a lot of it in that as I said before, I think a lot of the things that average pet owners think is "dominance" is simply the fact that previous behavior had been intentionally or unintentionally rewarded. Like jumping up is no longer desirable when they are a teenager or adult, but it was cute when they were a puppy, so it was unintentionally rewarded. I also do appreciate that they separate leadership versus dominance as I think that's probably fine. As I said before, I think *truly* dominant dogs are relatively uncommon within the general pet dog population, though they are certainly out there.
> 
> However, in general, there are many veterinary behaviorists that I disagree with for a number of reasons. I feel that they are (in general, I'm sure there are exceptions) more into working with your average pet problems and less willing to try anything that involves adversives, even if it helps. I just don't really care for the inflexibility, so that's one reason I'm not really going into that specialty with a residency and all that. Plus behavior is the lowest paid boarded specialty and nutrition is the highest. :mrgreen:  I'd still like to do some behavior consults in practice, even if I'm not a board certified behaviorist.


 
LOL My vet told me my dog isn't breed worthy because he growled at the tech who wanted to stick a thermometor in his ass. =; I wanted to know why a temp was a big deal when we were there for OFA rays. I'm probably as hard if not harder than Ann and that's how I got my dog. I told the breeder, send me a puppy I can't squash. I could kick him in the head daily and he'd look at me like it never happened.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> Dominant behaviour often has nothing to do with a dog being truely dominant.
> Often times it's nothing more then a dog that gets away with a lot of crap because of inexpierienced handlers or a plain lack of leadership.


BIG time! Many pet people think their dogs are dominant when the truth is they are nothing but spoiled rotten.


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

I agree some people are incapable of putting a firm foot down be it their dogs or children these days. It's quite annoying! Rules, dogs needs rules and we need to make sure they follow them, just like children.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I have seen too many "dominant" dogs melt like butter. I have dogs dive past me through doors all the time, but that is because I don't give a shit. If I say wait, then they do not go. They also bang into me all the time, but that is not dominant, it is just Mal.

Dominant is a strange one to describe, as there are modifiers involved. I have seen the humping thing described as dominant, but to me that has a modifier as well.


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## Emilio Rodriguez (Jan 16, 2009)

I like that terminology, modifiers. I agree. I don't care about many behaviors that can be classified as dominant to the point that I don't even perceive them as such. To me dominant is when it becomes a problem. Hence the description in my first post.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I have seen too many "dominant" dogs melt like butter. I have dogs dive past me through doors all the time, but that is because I don't give a shit. If I say wait, then they do not go. They also bang into me all the time, but that is not dominant, it is just Mal.
> 
> Dominant is a strange one to describe, as there are modifiers involved. I have seen the humping thing described as dominant, but to me that has a modifier as well.


 
I 100% agree...My dog will bark growl and snap at me if I grab her to hard, but it's not dominace. I can say "be sweet" and she will completely change to being sweet. 

I think lots of behaviors classified as dominace, are not such. And it has been my experience that the more a dog has very blantant diplays of power and domiance the more it's fake and they really have no power. These are often the lowest dogs on the totem pole. 

It's like a dog coming up a leash, I view this as a weakness.

none the less...I think basing a training program on dominace or social implications as the main attribute you are trying to change or control is not going to work very well.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

*Re: What's your dominant?*



Chad Byerly said:


> http://www.avsabonline.org/avsabonline/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=80&Itemid=366
> 
> Click on *Dominance Position Statement* for new thoughts on "dominance" from Veterinary Behaviorists.


 
I missed this yesterday and by god I think they got it! 
Over powering a dog with physical pressure may "control" the dog but it has nothing to do with leadership!!!
It often times does nothing more then inhibit any threat display before they decide to bite your ass. 

And Yes to Jeff! My dogs will knock me on my ass when I open the kennel gate. No big deal. It's not important to me. BUT, if I say "wait"! I have no doubt in my mind that they will.


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## Christen Adkins (Nov 27, 2006)

*Re: What's your dominant?*

Great reading, Chad. Thanks for sharing.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

I don't train and I am not into protection per se, but I have a yard full of hard dogs that are also truly dominate. My perspective of the two types of dogs is definitely different but may add something to the perspective. I read through the thread and certain comments struck a chord.

Howard Gaines
"I would look at hard as the ability to deal with pain"
I think this is what separates the hard from the rest without a doubt. 

Susan Tuck
"A hard dog is not one who ignores corrections, on the contrary, to me, a hard dog is one who recovers quickly, and can work through, rather than fall apart or ignore or pout from strong corrections."

This very type of hardness was a new concept to me years ago. I had dogs that could be cut to pieces fighting a hog or a bear and never say die but, If we were home and I whack one across the head with my hand, he folded and quit. They would stay away from me for the next week. The dogs were extremely hard and would stay in a fight if it killed them but, they were not training hard. There is a big difference.

Bob Scott
"Dominant behaviour often has nothing to do with a dog being truely dominant. "

Amen, he is just the most dominate one present at the time(basically in the dog world). If a truly dominate dog comes in, he is done. Now, there is a difference when it comes to people.....particularily with the handler. I don't think any stable dog should ever even have the thought that he is dominate to the handler. I am not a believer in the "dominance theory" I think it is a crock myself. You simply do want large agressive dogs looking at you as a compeditor....that is when things go south in a hurry. Any dog should view his owner or handler as his lord and master, not as a compeditor. If the dog does that, he is either got a screw loose, or the handler did not set the boundaries on the dog from the get go. Many high strung dogs HAVE to have boundaries so they understand they are mere dogs and the handler/owner is their god.(sleeping on the bed, feeding from the table while you eat, riding in the front seat of the car)

Jeff Oelsen
"Dominant is a strange one to describe, as there are modifiers involved. I have seen the humping thing described as dominant, but to me that has a modifier as well."

This is an interesting concept, Humping other males would appear to be a dominate posture, but, truly dominate dogs do not posture. They don't profile, they don't bare their teeth. If they growl, It is very quiet and gutteral. These are all signs of a lack of confidence to me. Intimidation tactics. True alpha dogs are amazingly easy to work with because they are so confident. They just don't try to intimidate....they handle it, if it needs handling, with no fanfare But, when there is a challenger(which can be a person other than the handler/owner, they will bring them to there knees.

Emilio
"BTW dominant with dogs and dominant with handler are separate issues."
Precisely, but there should never be dominace shown toward the handler in my opinion. If there is, something is not right. The handler is god and never to be challenged.

These are just some of my thoughts regarding hardness and true dominance.


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## Emilio Rodriguez (Jan 16, 2009)

Don Turnipseed said:


> I don't think any stable dog should ever even have the thought that he is dominate to the handler. I am not a believer in the "dominance theory" I think it is a crock myself. You simply do want large agressive dogs looking at you as a compeditor....that is when things go south in a hurry. Any dog should view his owner or handler as his lord and master, not as a compeditor. If the dog does that, he is either got a screw loose, or the handler did not set the boundaries on the dog from the get go. Many high strung dogs HAVE to have boundaries so they understand they are mere dogs and the handler/owner is their god.(sleeping on the bed, feeding from the table while you eat, riding in the front seat of the car)


I agree but there are modifiers  

Dominant is just a word attempting to encompass things we see in some dogs. The word dominant already has meaning before it is applied in this context so maybe it's hard to make it fit. How about if we would just say "the strongest", would that fit better? I agree that the master should be above and beyond any kind of social interplay with the dog, but doesn't that depend on the strength of the master? The truth of the matter is that many times it's a bluff because if the dog wanted to challenge us it has the tools to do so.

If the master is strong he is in a position to define environmental boundaries for the dog. The dog would not get pissed at a tree if it ran real fast and hit it, the dog must accept the absolute effect a tree has in it's life. In the same manner the master can provide inevitable consequences for the dog if it steals food from the kitchen counter for example. But the thing about dominant (with people) dogs is that they have a certain capability that allows them to see the hole in what should be absolute, or the possibility to challenge the master. Some dogs get this way because ineffectual owners give them all the possibilities to discover their own weakness. Other truly dominant/strong dogs will discover the bluff even with stronger owners. Some stable ones can be pushed into challenging the master because of unfair treatment but I think those draw the lines much closer to themselves. If you leave me alone I'll leave you alone sort of thing.

In the end maybe dominance is not about having something but lacking something; lacking an inherent level of respect for the supriority of a human who raised the dog from a pup. Maybe it's simply the ability to perceive people on it's own level. We breed strong dogs that can take on human adverseries while still maintaining their wits about them, how close is this to realizing that the owner is a just another human? It is my understanding that when breeding for strong dogs it is possible at the same time to select for dogs that will be sensitive to the owner. The equation is complicated.


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## Emilio Rodriguez (Jan 16, 2009)

I think about it more and dominant is probably connected with intelligence. The ability to see past the situation/just accepting it for what it is, and into what is the will or intention of someone or something responsible for that situation.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

I agree Emilio, it is a complex thing. Some of the weakest dogs can be dominate in a particular environment, but, out of that and they are nothing. I am not looking at what some perceive as dominance, I am looking at genuine dominance. Take any of the males to a dog park and they will stop and look over the dogs there and make a beeline for the Rottie, bulldog, mastiff, newfie or whatever is the top dog. They walk right up in front of them and stand there and stare them in the eye. No sound, no movement. It almost always ends right there, No fights, but the other dog submits and they a off and checking things out. If pits are involved, things can go south. This is how it works in the dog world. I am not really sure how fine the differences are when it comes to working dogs on people when the one doing the working is people. For instance, I could let these dogs eat from the table por sleep on the bed. I could raise them without the boundaries without a second thought concerning the fact that I couldn't win if it came down to a confrontation. Maybe because they know I am not the accepted game. Yet, they have no problem letting people know that they just crossed the line, something they would never do with me. A dog that shows me some ivory makes me feel more at ease than a dog that looks me in the eye and is silent. Your just not sure where his line is drawn and he isn't going to give you any hints that you may be getting close.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Emilio Rodriguez said:


> I think about it more and dominant is probably connected with intelligence. The ability to see past the situation/just accepting it for what it is, and into what is the will or intention of someone or something responsible for that situation.


I love the intuitive powers dogs have regarding situations. I think it has to do mostly with confidence(which also has to do with inteligence). A truly conmfident dog has a high threshhold before he starts short circuiting. He is in control and he can let a situatioin develope and possibly diffuse itself. If it doesn't he will take care of it. This part is intelligence. People do the exact same thing. Early reaction can make a situation much worse than calmly waiting to see if force is neccessary. I think this type of dog has that figured out. Many things concerning dog behavior is a carbon copy of human behavior in my mind.


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## Emilio Rodriguez (Jan 16, 2009)

I believe at the very foundation we are based on feelings that are triggers to put us into action, sometimes it's a conditioned response due to experience but the trigger of feeling is still there. I believe we share those basic triggers with dogs and that to understand dogs one must tune into this simple way of perception. It does take a little effort for me to put myself there because I have to make myself relive certain situations. But that's what I try to do many times. At other times I forget that I must do this to understand the dog and get caught up in the words, like dominant


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## Emilio Rodriguez (Jan 16, 2009)

Don Turnipseed;105094\ said:


> Early reaction can make a situation much worse than calmly waiting to see if force is neccessary.


Yet a lot of protection dogs act preemptively. Can't remember right now if that's a good or bad thing. It certainly works in some situations. Actually almost everything they do is preemptive when it comes to showing aggression. I think by definition aggression means to start something. In the case of the males in the park I'm not sure what you're talking about but two strong males will fight. They don't have to fight right there and then, but they do. I think they are acting preemptively (starting shit ).


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## Emilio Rodriguez (Jan 16, 2009)

Dominant dogs just play mind games with you. You can see it in their eyes. They want to go but they're measuring you, pushing you with their eyes. Sometimes when you feel that weakness inside and turn your eyes away they don't do anything. Those are the good ones, they know they did their job. The ones that take your momentary weakness as a cue to attack are the shitty ones. A degree of dominance is good in a good protection dog. Of course this same behavior shouldn't be directed at the master.


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

Wow great posts guys.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Hard is different to different people also. 
I've had many terriers that would take all the physical pressure you can dish out from man or beast but melt from a stern voice. 
I also agree with Don the no stable dog should ever have a thought that he is dominant to the handler. 
The only truely dominant dog I've ever owned was just unstable and nucking futs! 
I could choke him into unconsiousness and he never said uncle. Would come to just as crazy and nasty. 
That was on me and my stupidity during that era of training.


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## Emilio Rodriguez (Jan 16, 2009)

You know terriers are an exception to the laws of nature 

The thing is that when terriers are hard like that it's because they're in drive. The drive is usually directed at animals. Sorry I'm no expert at hunting but I think I have a general understanding. Dominant dogs are not exactly in drive, unless you call social dominance a drive, at least not until they start the fight. I think that drive in the case of terriers takes the dog over and suppresses everything else, even survival instinct. In a way it's stupidity. You got a dog who would go into a hole without considering if it's going to be able to come out. Dogs playing at dominance are thinking much more. This is where there's a hole in my understanding of the terrier temperament. If we're talking about game dogs I don't think there's a social element to their involvement in the fight. I believe males will even fight females. However the more moderate specimens are very keen on starting a fight due to apparent social aggression and have the capability to do well. Yet few specimens transfer this to dealing with people so IMO they're not ideal protection prospects. I have seen exceptions though and those were very good. Actually they're supposed to excel at this but I don't know who breeds dogs like that. Maybe am staffs.

I hear you about the dog you described, I had one in my life that that taught me the same thing. My one reconciliation is that eventually he went to someone who took a real shine to him and kept him for the rest of his days.


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Emilio Rodriguez said:


> You know terriers are an exception to the laws of nature
> 
> The thing is that when terriers are hard like that it's because they're in drive. The drive is usually directed at animals. Sorry I'm no expert at hunting but I think I have a general understanding. Dominant dogs are not exactly in drive, unless you call social dominance a drive, at least not until they start the fight. I think that drive in the case of terriers takes the dog over and suppresses everything else, even survival instinct. In a way it's stupidity. You got a dog who would go into a hole without considering if it's going to be able to come out. Dogs playing at dominance are thinking much more. This is where there's a hole in my understanding of the terrier temperament. If we're talking about game dogs I don't think there's a social element to their involvement in the fight. I believe males will even fight females. However the more moderate specimens are very keen on starting a fight due to apparent social aggression and have the capability to do well. Yet few specimens transfer this to dealing with people so IMO they're not ideal protection prospects. I have seen exceptions though and those were very good. Actually they're supposed to excel at this but I don't know who breeds dogs like that. Maybe am staffs.
> 
> I hear you about the dog you described, I had one in my life that that taught me the same thing. My one reconciliation is that eventually he went to someone who took a real shine to him and kept him for the rest of his days.


Emilio, Much of what you have said about the terriers is dead on paricularily the small ones. My dogs have never started a fight except with each other because they(males) are all at the top. None are yarded together and there is a 4' saftey zone of hot wires between yards to prevent them from catching each other through the fence. When facing other dogs in a neutral territory, they make sure the other dog knows he is here and gives him his chance to protect his turf. It is always left up to the other dog if he wants to attempt it. These dogs are just as happy with a good submission with other dogs. No such luck when it comes to each other.


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## Emilio Rodriguez (Jan 16, 2009)

Damn I didn't realize I was talking to the airdale terrier man and here I am explaining terriers


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

LOL. Just came in from the dog yards It has snowed 3" in the last hour and the dogs are out of control. They love this stuff. Terriers are different for sure and that very difference makes it difficult to compare them to many dogs because they can be a tad over the top one second and ten seconds later act like they just woke up. One thing I have noticed is they like to run the show.....they don't much care for someone else running it.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Emilio some very good points but I've seen many of the smaller terriers that, but for size, could do an excellent job of man work. Many of them wind up in the pound or worse because of the lack of leadership from morons that "want a cute little dog".
Obviously the Airedale would be at the top of the list for having the physical and mental ability for it. I've also seen quite a few Kerry Blues that I believe could do the job. 
I've owned some good Kerrys and would have owned a Airedale had I know of breeders like Don baack in the day. There was a gentleman named Henery Johnston that bred good working Airedales but it just was just the wrong time and place for me then. 
20+ yrs ago I owned the second Norwich Terrier in the country to earn it's TT frome the ATTS. He was more then willing to have a go with "The threatening stranger". To big for good earth work though. My daughter's Rotty gave him a wide berth. 
My present JRT wont take physical pressure from anyone, including me, but he's in the "nucking futs" class.
My present two GSDs are a piece of cake after 30+ yrs with the little bassids. 
Had a couple of Border Terriers also but I've never had or seen one that was aggressive towards another dog (unless the other dog started it) or human. Effin deadly on critters!
Had one Bull terrier. The wife said if I ever brought another one of those dumb #@$$%%^&s home, there would be some serious decissions to be made. :-o :lol:

Don, I agree about the "the small ones"! Napolean had nothing on some of those monsters. :lol:


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## Dan Long (Jan 10, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> My present JRT wont take physical pressure from anyone, including me, but he's in the "nucking futs" class.


We inherited a JRT from my brother in law when he passed away last spring. No one in the family down south where he was from wanted the dog and we didn't want to see him sent to the pound so we took him in. He was poorly socialized to both people and animals and was allowed to be the typical horrible little dog in his house. We broke him of all his bad habits (humping visitors,free access to all furniture, etc) except for the extreme dog aggression to our male GSD, and enough DA towards our Dane that we actively searched for a new home for him the last few months. He was fearful of the GSD but hardwired to keep going after him. He'd run in circles around the GSD, who'd be laying down minding his own business, and growl, show teeth, rush at him aggressively. If he made the mistake of confonting the GSD head on, the GSD would chase him down, pin him down with his mouth around his back, and hold him there. The JRT would be shrieking like he was being killed. I'd call the GSD off, and the JRT would chase him again, thinking that he was running off the big dog. It was a never ending cycle, and we feared for the little guy's life, because it would be so easy for the GSD to clamp down on him one time instead of mouthing him, and it'd be over. The final straw came when he started getting aggressive towards our female Dane, who is a complete lover of everything (except the mailman... ). The JRT would do the same aggressive posturing to her, and she'd play bow and think he wanted to have fun. One day he went after her, and she swatted him with her giant paw, and split open his flank about 3". Nine stitches and $200 later, he was home but my wife was finally convinced that he had to go. I'd known this all along, but the dog was a remembrance of her brother, so I wanted to let her work it out for herself. We finally placed him thru a Russell Rescue site that he'd been on for a while. The cool thing is it's with a family who had experience with the breed, and they are on 20 acres not far from us. He's doing well there although they are having a hard time keeping him from chasing the cat, another by product of his upbrining. My brother in law hated cats and thought it was funny to have the JRT chase them. 

I admire people who have the courage to own a breed like this. I suppose if we'd had him since a pup he would have been raised differently and we might not have had some of the issues we had with him, but they are hardwired in a lot of ways that you just can't change. I'll stick to the giant Danes and the GSD types!


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## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

Emilio Rodriguez said:


> You know terriers are an exception to the laws of nature
> 
> I think that drive in the case of terriers takes the dog over and suppresses everything else, even survival instinct. In a way it's stupidity. .


 
Ah yes and i call it 'stupid drive'.......bulldogs have it too :-$ 

t


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## Emilio Rodriguez (Jan 16, 2009)

Thanks for sharing the JRT story Dan, it was an interesting read for me. He may have been a good candidate for the e-collar training that was brought up in a thread I started recently. Makes more sense though to put him in a home where the stimulus for the behavior is not there in the first place.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

When I was active my hunting partner was/still is a working terrier judge for the JRTCA and I've dug to dozens of different terriers. One thing I've often seen is that JRTs were often crossed with Lakelands to build a bit more fire under them. Often times these very dog aggressive JRTs have a lot of Lakeland in their back ground. The coat may have a bit more wave in it. The tail may have a higher set to it and there is a definate "look" in the eyes of a working Lakeland x. 
There's also an old saying amoung terrier men that "If selling fur is your reason for hunting don't use a lackland".
In the Southern areas of GB the fox hunting is looked at as sport and the fox is dug to and often allowed to go free for another hunt. The JRT is the preferred breed because a "correct" JRT is a baying dog underground. This is why I changed from hunting with Borders to JRTs. 
In the Northern areas of GB the fox is vermin and kills lambs at lambing season. A dog fox in GB can be 20-25 lbs compaired to the 10-12 pounders we have here in the States.
The ground is much rockier in the North and can't easily be dug so the dogs used are sent in to the hole to finish the fox. Thus the Borders, Lakelands, Fells, Black Fells (Patterdales).
You also didn't hunt Badgers (illegal) with a hard dog. Most will loose!
In the North the dogs are bred more as a true working dog (aka KNVP Mals) and crosses are not uncommon.
Unfortunately hunting with dogs has become almost non existant in GB because of the (worse then) PETA type wackos over there. 
A "hard" terrier can be one of the sweetest, softest dogs on the planet (with people). My Borders were both super soft with people AND other dogs yet I retired them from hiunting becaue of their "hardness" in the ground.
Yet another version of a "hard" dog.


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## Nancy Rhynard (Nov 24, 2008)

[quote=Bob Scott; One thing I've often seen is that JRTs were often crossed with Lakelands to build a bit more fire under them. Often times these very dog aggressive JRTs have a lot of Lakeland in their back ground. The coat may have a bit more wave in it. The tail may have a higher set to it and there is a definate "look" in the eyes of a working Lakeland x. 
There's also an old saying amoung terrier men that "If selling fur is your reason for hunting don't use a lackland".

This entire thread has been amazing. 

I'm going to take a good look at my female JRT. The rats she brings to the door, God love her, are mauled. I had no idea they made these crosses.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Nancy, above ground kills are a whole different thing! 
In the states here there is very little crossing except by serious terrier men/women. Even then it's not to thhe same extent as over in GB. 
Your dog may have something in it's past but doubtful if anything receint.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> My Borders were both super soft with people AND other dogs yet I retired them from hiunting becaue of their "hardness" in the ground. ...


This is why my Border Terrier granddog was retired. You might call it "zero regard for personal safety." :lol:


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I've never heard of the JRT being crossed with the Lakeland. We had one from the Cheshire hunt - he would have attacked an elephant but was very nice with humans.

At the hunts, the JRTs were eventually transported in vans as when allowed to run loose with the fox hounds they were rarely to be found when the fox went to earth - they were each doing "private hunting".
With the van, it could stop where the fox went to earth and then they were let out.

I'd love one again but fear that joining the FCI has achieved what many true JRT owners feared - they've not only become tame, they're devoid of personality and drive. Not all of course, but many.


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## Alex Corral (Jul 10, 2007)

We had a person in our SchH club who received a very dominant Mal by mistake. The breeder thought he was pet quality because he wouldn't do anything. Turns out, he was the alpha dog and didn't do anything _because he didn't have to_. Once he turned about 18 mos, he was waaaaay too much for his handler, to the point they were afraid of him. We kinda laugh now, about how off the breeder was.

Luckily, another club member was able to take him in. This person has alot of experience with working dogs, and IMO, has a great relationship with this dog, BUT, the dog has come up the leash on 2 occassions that I know of. Both were when the dog refused a command and the handler refused to let him get his way. This is one of the best Mals I have seen, but he is still "nucking futs" Which Mal isn't tho?


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Whose dog is it ?? From which breeder ?? Just curious to see if I know them.


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## Alex Corral (Jul 10, 2007)

I don't know the whole Von/Vom name Jeff. I'll have to get you that info when I see the guys on Sat.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Who are you training with ?


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## Meghan Rabon (Feb 10, 2009)

I have a female who has a very dominant personality. She is very friendly and social to everyone - but she is VERY pushy. 
For example - if someone is sitting in a chair, she'll run up to them and jump into their laps, putting her face just about level with theirs, paws on their shoulders. They think she's being so sweet and friendly but I always felt that she was being dominant...but never tested the theory.
One day when she was about 2, she did this to someone and they wrapped their arms around her, put their head on her shoulder and tried to hug her. She got stiff as a board, tail went straight up and got real stiff, she was about to nail this person but I called her and she hopped off and came over to me...and I kept her away from that person after that because it really was NOT a smart thing to do!
She ALWAYS has to be on top of things - counter tops, kitchen tables, you name it LOL She isn't happy unless she's at eye level.
She will guard food/toys, especially from strangers. She's tried to guard things from me (especially a raw deer leg a few weeks back - that almost got nasty) but I've worked with her and she understands the word "aus." She did nail someone at our Schh club who tried to take her ball away but they realized that was their own fault.
She also will not allow anyone outside of the family to grab her collar or stand over her.

I have raised a decent number of dogs and I've never had one that I felt had this kind of dominant personality. I love it, although I have to keep a closer eye on her now that she is mature because I don't want anyone to get hurt.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I have had and have now two dogs who wouldn't let you do any of these things to them. I wouldn't call it dominance though. Even the very friendly younger dog didn't take kindly to someone putting his arm round him. It happened so quickly but normally I don't allow people "taking liberties" with my dogs. For what?

Some dogs have stronger guarding instincts than others. But what's lying around and in your property is yours not hers - not even an old deer leg.

One of my dogs likes sitting up on high and he can do this on the terrace if the tables are not in use but I'd skin his hide if he tried it inside.

Does she sit on the stove? Might be one way to cure her of "higher places":idea:


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I have dogs dive past me through doors all the time, but that is because I don't give a shit.


Jeff!! Are you serious? You let your dogs charge through the door first??? Don't you know the dog will wipe the floor with you if you let them get away with stuff like that? Buko's gonna take your hand off one of these days. Don't say I didn't warn you.


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## Meghan Rabon (Feb 10, 2009)

I knew I'd hear about letting my dog meet other people - but I generally don't, that stopped mostly when she was about a year old. This was a person that I thought was pretty dog-savvy so I okayed it. Definitely my mistake!
It's hard to explain her actions on a forum - it's not just how she tries to dominant people in chairs, it's like she has no respect for people. She'll body slam people and if they have something she wants she will grab them if they don't give it to her.
Anyway I'm not sayng she's one of those extremely dominant dogs that's always looking for a fight BUT she is fairly dominant especially for a female IMO.

Her jumping on things in the house doesn't bother me too much anymore. She hasn't jumped on the counter/table in our own house in a long time, but she'll race me to the bed/couch, and sit exactly where I want to sit, but when I tell her to get off she does. That's good enough for me - I don't feel like there's any chance of her going after me over that. She's got the kind of energy level that doesn't make her a great house dog but I have learned to ignore it 
And no..she figured out the stove the first time she tried to get up there...


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: Jeff!! Are you serious? You let your dogs charge through the door first??? Don't you know the dog will wipe the floor with you if you let them get away with stuff like that? Buko's gonna take your hand off one of these days. Don't say I didn't warn you.

Thats pretty funny. : ) I would give up the hand if he would just trial like I know he can. Kinda wantin to get that 3.


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## Stephanie O'Brien (Sep 11, 2007)

Alex, are you talking about Denali? Owned by Jeff Ulraub? If so, I am not the breeder but he is out of my male Fat Louie and the mother's name is Apache. Denali is a super nice dog.....and sounds alot like his daddy and grand daddy


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: Jeff!! Are you serious? You let your dogs charge through the door first??? Don't you know the dog will wipe the floor with you if you let them get away with stuff like that? Buko's gonna take your hand off one of these days. Don't say I didn't warn you.
> 
> Thats pretty funny. : ) I would give up the hand if he would just trial like I know he can. Kinda wantin to get that 3.


Might just be why Buko thinks he runs shit and gives the finger on trial day. What other little dirty secrets are you holding out on us Jeff? Lemme guess, you sit on the floor and Buko gets the recliner! :lol: 

Seriously though, he's telling you in his own way, your his bitch, you just arent seeing it.


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## Alex Corral (Jul 10, 2007)

Stephanie O'Brien said:


> Alex, are you talking about Denali? Owned by Jeff Ulraub? If so, I am not the breeder but he is out of my male Fat Louie and the mother's name is Apache. Denali is a super nice dog.....and sounds alot like his daddy and grand daddy


Stephanie, yes, that's him! He is a really great dog. I have worked him many times. He got his III in October and is also a certified Police K9.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: Might just be why Buko thinks he runs shit and gives the finger on trial day. What other little dirty secrets are you holding out on us Jeff? Lemme guess, you sit on the floor and Buko gets the recliner! 

Seriously though, he's telling you in his own way, your his bitch, you just arent seeing it.

Funny you should say that, he is on the couch, and I am sitting on the floor.....But then again, I always sit on the floor.

If I tell him to do something, like just now I told him to get off the couch, and go in his crate, he just does it. Explain that to me. I do not have problems asking him to do anything......except when there is a decoy, and even then he is pretty good. Still have problems with the defense, as he is good for X amount of time. #-o Trying to work that out.

He has definatly got me all up in my head, and thinking too much.


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## Stephanie O'Brien (Sep 11, 2007)

That's great to hear Alex. I REALLY liked what I heard and saw of Denali and recently heard he just sired his first litter. Jeff tells me he is just a kick a$$ dog. I just love STRONG, driven dogs ;-)


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

This is hard. This dog actually picked a porky up and tried to hand deliver it to Dan one evening. Dan has two of my dogs and the other is the dominate one but he as hard as this dog. I think a lot of it does have to do with pain threshholds. The email he sent

"It was a good hike until sundown, and about 20 mins from the vehicle. Beautiful afternoon 28 degrees & good walking snow & then bam!! I hate these gd things like no other. 
i'll find this sob in the morning too....he couldn't have gone too far...
my wife & i pulled probably 75, when I really realized how many poor Lenape had at the back of his throat & tongue & roof of mouth,- all in all after the vets- at least 250 quills all mostly in his mouth...poor guy...what a warrior- not one whimper.
cool vet who runs boerbels said that porky might not of made it too far with that amt of quills gone & the teeth on your dog,lol. 

Lenny gets a big dose of scotch in the morn for pain. He is so dam hard- I put him in the truck to go to the emerg vet - 30 mins away & I told my brother if we stopped halfway there on a racoon he would hunt another 5 hrs w/quills or not, lol . Nasty creatures.
cheers,"


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## Emilio Rodriguez (Jan 16, 2009)

Wow! .....


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Don Turnipseed said:


> This is hard. This dog actually picked a porky up and tried to hand deliver it to Dan one evening. Dan has two of my dogs and the other is the dominate one but he as hard as this dog. I think a lot of it does have to do with pain threshholds. The email he sent
> 
> "It was a good hike until sundown, and about 20 mins from the vehicle. Beautiful afternoon 28 degrees & good walking snow & then bam!! I hate these gd things like no other.
> i'll find this sob in the morning too....he couldn't have gone too far...
> ...


 
I wouldn't have it any other way with a good terrier. The ones that create problems ar the ones that get obsessed when these things happen. Good dogs can get skunked and never go to earth in a skunk hole again. Some never learn and wage war. 
A dog that gets skunked down in the earth can go into anafalactic (sp) shock a couple of days later and just keel over. 
You can only hope they learn. many don't. Thsoe get retired!


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