# How not to train



## Keith Jenkins (Jun 6, 2007)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fKR4FfRSe9E&NR=1&feature=endscreen

While this had some deservedly harsh consequences ( http://fci2012.hu/doc/kizar.pdf ) the really sad part is not one spectator stepped up to the plate and said anything to this jerk while this was happening.


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## Gerald Guay (Jun 15, 2010)

Seen this posted elsewhere:

"Official Statement
I officially inform that Mr. Patrick (Luxembourg) Keil is excluded to participate the FCI IPO 2012 based on the animal abuse revealed on youtube.
The FCI strongly and strictly condemns the act of any kind of this behaviour.
Zalaegerszeg, 22th September 2012.
Organizers"


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## Doug Zaga (Mar 28, 2010)

Keith Jenkins said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fKR4FfRSe9E&NR=1&feature=endscreen
> 
> While this had some deservedly harsh consequences ( http://fci2012.hu/doc/kizar.pdf ) the really sad part is not one spectator stepped up to the plate and said anything to this jerk while this was happening.


Keith it appeared that the videographer was behind a tree line or out of view from the field. IMO the person videotaped his training methods to expose him instead of confronting him.


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## Keith Jenkins (Jun 6, 2007)

Agreed though without that video nothing would have probably happened with no proof...fact still remains no one on the sidelines did a thing either...


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

To me it is videos like this that will be 'all' of our bite sports downfall. The person who filmed it and the person who is the perpetrator are equally guilty of putting any protection based sport back in the cross hairs of the PETA and other politically correct types who would take our rights away to participate in them. 

A lot of the stuff was edited and looped in this video for better shock value effect. Many parts are like watching a train wreck over and over. Obviously someone with a grudge filmed this with intent to discredit and ridicule. While there is excessive use of force and correction in this video, I suspect that we are not seeing the whole picture. Even the audio you hear the dog scream and it doesn't open it's mouth so the audio is altered as well. So really how can we believe everything we see on the internet. Photo shop, editing etc distorts the actual reality. Not saying what is in this video is not abusive far from that, but many parts of the video are edited for effect, it is easy to see even to my untrained eye.

Too many people give the usual "this is terrible, I would never do this, blah blah blah that handler is lucky the dog didn't turn on him blah blah blah". 

But all I could see was the glee the animal rights folks have in seeing something like this, even though it is so heavily edited, and that the participants in dog sports are 'once again' further divided by personal vendettas.

Most of us here know what we are looking at and it is someone's bad temper and ego getting the better of them, so who really knows why he is mistreating the dog for whatever stupid human excuse or reason he is doing it. 

Though the editing to me, is what makes me suspect of the general validity, credibility and intent of the video, as many things can be taken out of context when people, just don't understand.

For example any person walks in on any of our training in any protection sport. What is the picture that any of the bite sports sends to people who don't understand? "Guns, sticks, dogs biting, men in dark suits" .. If people don't understand what we are doing it can leave a bad impression or even worse. Look at the watering down of IPO worldwide due to the lobbying of the organized politically correct fluffy huggers . This is a true example of what is capable of happening to our sports today.

I think many of us have trained in a few places were people passing by have called the police on us saying we were making dogs fight and men in black jackets were beating dogs, LOL! That's why many clubs close their doors to spectators as things can easily be taken out of context when seen by the wrong eyes.

To me it is all about appearances. Bart Bellon says it best on his website.

"A farmer long ago told me some wise words about dog training. He said, the trainer can use a stick to guide a dog. He can use that same stick to pet a dog. He can use that same stick to activate a dog (e.g. “go!”). He can use that stick to punish the dog. When the training is clear and understood, that same stick with which the dog was just punished can be used as a stick for a quick reward game of fetch. Now we are training dogs!"

But some just can't see past the stick .. ;-)

Unfortunate that many people while not even understanding our sports, can and will make an all encompassing 'negative' opinion on any 1:20 KNPV, IPO or Ringsport video that this is what our sports are about. But THIS ISN'T WHAT OUR SPORTS ARE! We all need to be proactive in how we promote our sports and think about the big picture before videos like this make all protection sports illegal.


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## Robin Van Hecke (Sep 7, 2009)

Agree 100%.

Do you have any ideas on what we could do to shed a different light on dog sports? other then watering them down even more?


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Gerald Guay said:


> Seen this posted elsewhere:
> 
> "Official Statement
> I officially inform that Mr. Patrick (Luxembourg) Keil is excluded to participate the FCI IPO 2012 based on the animal abuse revealed on youtube.
> ...


Sad to say the person who posted the video is hurting all of us who participate in any protection sport in the process, by proving his/her point against this Patrick Keil guy by leaving it up on youtube. Sure he was DQed from the champs for the footage in this video. But IMO it was politically motivated and a knee jerk reaction by the FCI, it was really all they could do to try to save face. But I am of the opinion that even in doing that it doesn't change the damage that is being inflicted to all dog sports with bite work while this video is viewable to the public. That's the sad part.


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

No they handled it the right way. They got together as a group and banned the person for a period of time. They could have made it worse if someone intervened. They put thought into their decesion this way and eliminated alot of drama.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

OK, I've seen this video posted a number of places now, and talked with people about it, and I'm going to say what I think at least some people are thinking, but don't want to get roasted for saying.

I have mixed feelings about this video. First, I'm curious about the motivations of the person who made and posted it. They obviously wanted to portray the handler in the worst possible light, my question is why? Was it simply to expose someone they feel is abusive, or was it to remove the competition from an upcoming event? 

The video looks/sounds doctored to me, there are times the dog is "screaming" but it looks like the mouth is closed. The screaming in parts of the video also sounds like it's cut from the first part where the handler is slapping the dog with an open hand. Makes me wonder if extra sound effects were added for "punch".

It also looks like it's short clips taken from a number of sessions and all put together to make it look like all the handler does is beat the crap out of his dog. Especially the end part of the video. We don't know what happened before the corrections, or after, I think it's safe to say we are being shown the worst parts of the training only, and not any of the reward parts.

In terms of the actual corrections, first some dogs are just vocal. I've seen dogs that screamed because someone popped them on a choke chain, this dog appears to be one of those dogs. I worked a few dogs like this when I was training pet dogs, the slightest correction and they started screaming like you were sawing their leg off. Not saying the corrections this dog was getting didn't hurt, but the sound effects really add to the effect.

Were the corrections abusive? Honestly I'm not sure, I wasn't there. Yes, he's hitting the dog, but how hard I can't tell. At times it looks like he's just flicking the dog with the whip, like in the retrieves, like I would tap my dogs with my hand for the hold. Since the video was taken from a distance, I can't tell if the dog is mouthing or not. At other times he's definitely hitting the dog, but is that any worse than someone who uses an electric collar on a high enough setting to make the dog arch his neck, or is it just more visual and therefore objectionable? Is it worse then someone who uses a collar and corrects hard enough to yank the dog sideways? Or is it any more abusive then a helper who stings a dog with a whip in bitework to build drive/frustration/aggression? Is it any more abusive then hard FR stick work? Or is it any more abusive then when I've used a dressage whip to flick my dog in the belly as they are going over the hurdle so they kick out and don't touch the bars? Or is it any more abusive then one of my club members who stings their dog with a whip in obedience as a reward, the dog gets excited, comes up in drive, and gets even pushier and more animated, he likes it. I've seen video of a trainer on Youtube using a chuck-it in heeling in a similar manner for the positioning, is it OK because that's a chuck-it, and not a whip? What about if I smack my herding dog over the head with a crook for trying to grip? Or for that matter I smack the sheep on the head with the same crook for thinking about challenging my puppy? Or the people who use that whip as it was intended, while riding a horse? 

This dog obviously didn't like the corrections, I'm not even trying to suggest that, but I think it would be naive or hypocritical to claim that what this handler is doing is so unusual, and we are all just horrified. He's just the one who "got caught" because someone took the time to video a number of sessions, crop out and edit the compulsion parts, and then put that video on the internet, for whatever reason. 

I'm not defending the trainer, or his actions, I'm just saying maybe we should look at the big picture before we jump on the bandwagon. I don't condone his actions, but I'm not going to share the video either.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Compare this video to the Betsie videos that Joby posted and tell me there's that much difference?


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## Keith Jenkins (Jun 6, 2007)

Geoff Empey said:


> To me it is videos like this that will be 'all' of our bite sports downfall. The person who filmed it and the person who is the perpetrator are equally guilty of putting any protection based sport back in the cross hairs of the PETA and other politically correct types who would take our rights away to participate in them.
> 
> A lot of the stuff was edited and looped in this video for better shock value effect. Many parts are like watching a train wreck over and over. Obviously someone with a grudge filmed this with intent to discredit and ridicule. While there is excessive use of force and correction in this video, I suspect that we are not seeing the whole picture. Even the audio you hear the dog scream and it doesn't open it's mouth so the audio is altered as well. So really how can we believe everything we see on the internet. Photo shop, editing etc distorts the actual reality. Not saying what is in this video is not abusive far from that, but many parts of the video are edited for effect, it is easy to see even to my untrained eye.
> 
> ...


I have no idea if the person who posted the video is in the sport of not, has a grudge, replaced the audio with the theme song from the "Banana Splits Show" or is banging the guy's sister, the fact remains the moron did what he did and I don't give a good GD if he was having a bad day or not. 

If you want to be proactive then don't do stupid crap like this in the first place. 

Exactly what could be left out of the video that could possibly justify what was shown?


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## Karen Havins (Apr 22, 2012)

I'm shocked at some of the responses. The dog is clearly being hurt. And I don't think that's a whip, I am pretty positive it's a small bamboo stick....they hurt like hell. 

There is no taking this out of context. 
The guy is a raging douchebag, the dog is terrified of him. Who cares what prompted the person behind the video..maybe he'd been seeing this for some time from his home and decided to video it?


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Geoff Empey said:


> To me it is videos like this that will be 'all' of our bite sports downfall. The person who filmed it and the person who is the perpetrator are equally guilty of putting any protection based sport back in the cross hairs of the PETA and other politically correct types who would take our rights away to participate in them.


We were typing long posts at the same time LOL 

I'm not going to quote your entire post, but I agree with all of it. And I have the same gut reaction.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Karen Havins said:


> I'm shocked at some of the responses. The dog is clearly being hurt. And I don't think that's a whip, I am pretty positive it's a small bamboo stick....they hurt like hell.


It looked like a dressage whip to me, but it was hard to tell with the distance. Either way I agree they can both hurt.

You do personal protection per your signature thing on the left. Have you ever seen a dog flanked in training? Seen them stung with a whip to bring out aggression? My point is, how is that different then what he's doing? Both hurt the dog to get a certain performance.

I'm actually not convinced from watching the video the guy was loosing his temper, I think this is to him a normal correction. 

I agree we need to police ourselves. I don't agree we need to post it all over the www. Take the video, don't doctor it, and send it to the proper authorities. FCI, local police, etc. They will deal with the situation, which they did in this case. Posting it on YouTube does nothing but potentially hurt the rest of us.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

I agree with all those who feel the posting of this video can potentially bring harm to all our dog sports. 

I cannot pass judgement on anyone based on one heavily edited and dubbed video. If the FCI did so, then I say shame on them for caving to political pressure. I can only hope they based their decision on much more evidence than this one video.


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## Robin Van Hecke (Sep 7, 2009)

Karen Havins said:


> I'm shocked at some of the responses. The dog is clearly being hurt. And I don't think that's a whip, I am pretty positive it's a small bamboo stick....they hurt like hell.
> 
> There is no taking this out of context.
> The guy is a raging douchebag, the dog is terrified of him. Who cares what prompted the person behind the video..maybe he'd been seeing this for some time from his home and decided to video it?





The person that made the video has accomplished what he set out to, get the knee-jerk reactions such as yours. The video is clearly heavily edited for effect.
The bamboo stick was the weapon of choice in shutzhund until a few years ago.


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## jim stevens (Jan 30, 2012)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> It looked like a dressage whip to me, but it was hard to tell with the distance. Either way I agree they can both hurt.
> 
> You do personal protection per your signature thing on the left. Have you ever seen a dog flanked in training? Seen them stung with a whip to bring out aggression? My point is, how is that different then what he's doing? Both hurt the dog to get a certain performance.
> 
> ...


I think someone had an axe to grind. I also have no understanding of why he was giving the dog multiple hits and running him off a decoy. I have used a flank pinch before, I don't think of that as being a brute, and no, the guy didn't seem to lose his temper to me, just rough handling. 

The dog was obviously in fear of him, which is no way to have a partner, and to me that is what a dog is, but i'm not into competition. That said, I've seen a lot of horse training that with an properly edited video would look pretty bad too, but there is a difference, I'm not sure a 170 pound man can do much that will hurt a 1100 pound animal, plus they only know corrections, and release from pressure, they aren't dogs.


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## Lisa Brazeau (May 6, 2010)

jim stevens said:


> The dog was obviously in fear of him, which is no way to have a partner, and to me that is what a dog is, but i'm not into competition. That said, I've seen a lot of horse training that with an properly edited video would look pretty bad too, but there is a difference, I'm not sure a 170 pound man can do much that will hurt a 1100 pound animal, plus they only know corrections, and release from pressure, they aren't dogs.


Actually, a lot of horse trainers are moving to reward-based training - 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1J5StnRJAfY&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mOgtI23xqXE&feature=related

Back to the video of the guy abusing the dog...

I would like to repeat he exercises, with me as the handler with the stick, and that jerk as the dog. And anytime he is out of position, I'm going to 'correct' him, by pulling his ear, and whipping him with the stick, or punching/slapping him in the face. And I'm willing to repeat these exercises with anyone else who thinks this is regular, good ol' fashion dog training, so they can ascertain if this behavior is indeed abusive or not.

This is not about using corrections in training. I use corrections in training. Corrections are sometimes necessary. But a correction, to be effective, must be delivered emphatically, and in a controlled way for a clear reason. This guy appears to be angry and just happy to hit something (over and over and over). And if that dog were of stronger character, that guy would be given a correction he would never forget.


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## jim stevens (Jan 30, 2012)

Most of the reward based training is probably done with horses when the ladies who just started riding at 40 are watching, LOL! Horse training I know, I grew up on a cattle ranch and show cutters. A horse isn't smart enough, or driven enough to learn body/foot position by rewards. I've been around enough top trainers to see how they train when the novices are there, and how they train when they are working with other trainers. There's nothing wrong or brutal, but it ain't about rewarding behavior.


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## Laura Bollschweiler (Apr 25, 2008)

Odd...I never once thought the guy lost his temper. He was very much in control of his actions and his body.

I think the video is dubbed and edited. 
I don't think that dog made those sounds at those times because there's in consistency between the distance of the camera and quality of sound, when there was sound....there's no ambient noise. In the opening scene, you can hear it's actually two shorter audio clips spliced together. The dog's body language did not correspond with the sounds. The people sitting behind the guy when he backed the dog up didn't react in any way...not a whisper, a sidelong look to a fellow club member ("hey, look, he's at it again), nothing. Oh, and the dog's mouth didn't move. That dog did not make those noises at those times.

I think I now understand why clubs and seminar givers are paranoid about videotaping at their training sessions. I find it frightening that an edited and dubbed video of someone training nowhere near the event caused someone to be DQ'ed. I worry about PETA types seeing it...there's the end of dog sports.

The other day I tracked. I was done with tracking. I was playing with my dog. I didn't have a ball so it was just him and me playing. He was running around and I was kinda throwing him. Then he'd run back and jump on me. I'd push him off with my knee. First one knee then the other. We were playing kind of rough, in other words. Later I thought, what if...what if someone video'ed that and changed the sound. What if a bunch of idiots who couldn't read his body language thought that was abusive?

I'm not making judgment on his training style, although I did see a tuggie in his waistband. I'm just saying the editing and the dubbing completely undermined the credibility of this video.
Laura


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## Lisa Brazeau (May 6, 2010)

Jim,

I'm not near 40, and I've been riding since I was 6yrs old. And how would you know, if you haven't tried it?


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## mike finn (Jan 5, 2011)

Maybe it is just me, but the timing of hi correction were way off. Some of them looked just random.


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

Well said Geoff...

.At what point did the dog show any fear...at what point do you see the dog even look like its making the sounds in the video...

Believe have of what you see and none of what you hear...

I have seen worse treatment on Ceaser's show....


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## Karen Havins (Apr 22, 2012)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> It looked like a dressage whip to me, but it was hard to tell with the distance. Either way I agree they can both hurt.
> 
> You do personal protection per your signature thing on the left. Have you ever seen a dog flanked in training? Seen them stung with a whip to bring out aggression? My point is, how is that different then what he's doing? Both hurt the dog to get a certain performance.
> 
> ...



Dressage whips aren't typically that color. 
Either way, yes, I am into personal protection but that doesn't mean I condone flanking for MY dogs. If a dog doesn't have it for personal protection then he'll go the sport route. 
I won't have a dog taught that way. 
That's MY personal preference.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Lisa Brazeau said:


> I would like to repeat he exercises, with me as the handler with the stick, and that jerk as the dog. And anytime he is out of position, I'm going to 'correct' him, by pulling his ear, and whipping him with the stick, or punching/slapping him in the face.





> This guy appears to be angry and just happy to hit something (over and over and over). And if that dog were of stronger character, that guy would be given a correction he would never forget.



How do you know the reason the guy was doing any of this? Could their be underlying things that you don't know about? 





> And I'm willing to repeat these exercises with anyone else who thinks this is regular, good ol' fashion dog training, so they can ascertain if this behavior is indeed abusive or not.


Girl don't give it away for free! There are tons of guys that would pay big money to have you do this to them.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

That's the thing - NO ONE here knows the first thing about this dog and handler, not about their relationship, not about how the dog was trained, nothing of the dogs history or why the method was used, BUT people are happy to jump on the bandwagon and pass judgement based on a few minutes of a video that was OBVIOUSLY dubbed and edited, and that's not fair or right, at least in my book. 

I have no idea about this handler and his dog, but I do know enough not to pass judgement based on that video.


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## Karen Havins (Apr 22, 2012)

jim stevens said:


> Most of the reward based training is probably done with horses when the ladies who just started riding at 40 are watching, LOL! Horse training I know, I grew up on a cattle ranch and show cutters. A horse isn't smart enough, or driven enough to learn body/foot position by rewards. I've been around enough top trainers to see how they train when the novices are there, and how they train when they are working with other trainers. There's nothing wrong or brutal, but it ain't about rewarding behavior.


I have to disagree....I have shown my entire life, to the national level and horses are rediculously smart. 
However, our horses...we train in a fashion where we make it most comfortable for the horse to do what we want. For example.....we like a certain headset and overall carriage and animation if you will in our different disciplines. Certain set ups are perfectly comfortable unless the horses are acting stupid and then the horse will correct themselves. They are remarkably fast learners...and respond exremely well to verbal commands. 
My mother's last horse that she trained was when finished a horse of the vaquero fashion. That means that if you were to watch this mare in action in western attire, she was about perfect in form..would go through all the paces and you would never see myself or my mother move a fraction of an inch. This would be akin to the highest level of dog training and not something that can be done with every horse, but entirely possible. 

I find horses and dogs to be similar in a lot of ways. Both respond well to positive voice commands as well as negative voice commands, both will retaliate if they feel like it, my corrections on the dog were no more harsh than with a horse, maybe less so, cause a leash correction on a dog isn't the same as a correction on an animal who has no issues flipping over backwards.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Karen Havins said:


> If a dog doesn't have it for personal protection then he'll go the sport route.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Keith Jenkins said:


> I have no idea if the person who posted the video is in the sport of not, has a grudge, replaced the audio with the theme song from the "Banana Splits Show" or is banging the guy's sister, the fact remains the moron did what he did and I don't give a good GD if he was having a bad day or not.
> 
> If you want to be proactive then don't do stupid crap like this in the first place.
> 
> Exactly what could be left out of the video that could possibly justify what was shown?


Keith I really don't think anyone here especially myself is trying to justify or make light of what this guy was caught doing. It's the crappiest of all crappy training. 

I'm saying that for every BS video we have like this we need 20x+ videos showing our sports the way they are meant to be, to put our sports in the proper light. Especially that this was edited to look even worse whether not with the banana split theme song it is not a *TRUE* representation of any of our sports, it is an edited picture of someone else's train wreck. Us as ambassadors for our sports need to take a stand against where public media like this takes our sports in the public eye.


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## Robin Van Hecke (Sep 7, 2009)

Karen Havins said:


> Dressage whips aren't typically that color.
> Either way, yes, I am into personal protection but that doesn't mean I condone flanking for MY dogs. If a dog doesn't have it for personal protection then he'll go the sport route.
> I won't have a dog taught that way.
> That's MY personal preference.





I have to say, that is pretty funny more so coming from someone whose signature line is: "cry Havoc! let loose the dogs of war..."


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## Brett Bowen (May 2, 2011)

I watched this at work with no volume on, but now that I added volume, wow editing in full force. You can hear the audio loop on a few ocassions, not to mention the only audio is the dogs "screams", not even wind noise. A quick look at some of their other videos seems like some audio enhancements there as well. After watching it again you can see a couple spots where the video is looped as well to make it look like multiple hits.

I'd like to see the unedited version, I bet it's not nearly as bad looking.

Shame that someone bought into this if the video was the sole reason for the action taken by the FCI.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

susan tuck said:


> That's the thing - NO ONE here knows the first thing about this dog and handler, not about their relationship, not about how the dog was trained, nothing of the dogs history or why the method was used, BUT people are happy to jump on the bandwagon and pass judgement based on a few minutes of a video that was OBVIOUSLY dubbed and edited, and that's not fair or right, at least in my book.
> 
> I have no idea about this handler and his dog, but I do know enough not to pass judgement based on that video.


I think we are on the same page Sue. This video looks horrible. But if you edited together a minute of most peoples training you can make things far worst than they are. Secondly, I have not heard the handlers side. I don't know why he is doing what he's doing. 

I keep thinking about an aggressive dog I was working with a few months ago. This was an aggressive dog that I was working with for a rescue. I was in a public place and to the outsider I'm sure it looked like I was simply walking the dog around and choking him out for no reason. But they didn't know that I was correcting the dog for aggressive posturing at people. It looked really harsh but I was the dogs last chance. If I could not curb the aggression he was going to be killed. But the people in the shopping center think I'm the biggest a-hole in the world. Which I might be, but not for that.


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## Keith Jenkins (Jun 6, 2007)

Laura Bollschweiler said:


> Odd...I never once thought the guy lost his temper. He was very much in control of his actions and his body.
> 
> I think the video is dubbed and edited.
> I don't think that dog made those sounds at those times because there's in consistency between the distance of the camera and quality of sound, when there was sound....there's no ambient noise. In the opening scene, you can hear it's actually two shorter audio clips spliced together. The dog's body language did not correspond with the sounds. The people sitting behind the guy when he backed the dog up didn't react in any way...not a whisper, a sidelong look to a fellow club member ("hey, look, he's at it again), nothing. Oh, and the dog's mouth didn't move. That dog did not make those noises at those times.
> ...


Never ceases to amaze me the things people will say, do and post to justify stupid shit.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Robin Van Hecke said:


> Agree 100%.
> 
> Do you have any ideas on what we could do to shed a different light on dog sports? other then watering them down even more?


I don't know really Robin what the answer would be. I always try to be a 'good' ambassador to my sport as well as have my dogs be the same public ambassadors. 

Like I was saying have had a few times where people passing by our private property training field. Who would have called the police stating there was men with sticks, fighting dogs and live gunfire. The police sure show up quick when they get a call like that. The police show up ask and then carry on with their busy day. But someone out there has this picture in their head, that they are stopping some sort of crime or abuse of animals. It makes me laugh really, but that is the reality of some people. 

So I always talk to people, at our field. Even when they are in the next field doing agility or flyball, I talk to them and when they ask I always give a brief synopsis of the sports we are training whether it be IPO or Ring. People will go "ohhh that looks like fun" even if they have a teeny sheltie. Dogs are dogs and I like to train them and talk about them.


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## jim stevens (Jan 30, 2012)

Lisa Brazeau said:


> Jim,
> 
> I'm not near 40, and I've been riding since I was 6yrs old. And how would you know, if you haven't tried it?



I can tell you this, the Futurity in Fort Worth pays $250,000 for first. If this would work, the trainers would throw their spurs and bits in the trash can and buy clickers. I googled her and just as I thought, the woman has done nothing in the horse world. Her claim to fame was training whales at Sea World, for God's sake. I am 55 and grew up working cattle, there are pictures of me with my dad in a diaper on a horse. I have trialed as many dogs as this woman has shown horses, NONE. Don't take it personally, but you can do this kind of stuff for people with trail horses, when reiners, cutters, dressage trainers are winning with clickers, I'll be in.


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## Laura Bollschweiler (Apr 25, 2008)

Geoff Empey said:


> http://youtu.be/VnXnmeuEJfk


Soo funny!!! Awesome.

Laura


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## Lisa Brazeau (May 6, 2010)

Hey Jim! I ****ing LOVE google - http://www.examiner.com/article/steffen-peters-clicked-his-way-to-victory-at-rolex-world-cup-finals


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## jim stevens (Jan 30, 2012)

so there is one!


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## Robin Van Hecke (Sep 7, 2009)

That stick or whatever it is, is a tool, I've seen it used by many and some really good trainers too.
It's impossible to make judgement from watching that video, no one here knows the handler, the dog or the circumstances. It may be that the guy lost his cool and messed up badly. It's also possible that the video was edited to paint the worst possible scenario, I think modern video editing can do that. I'm willing to give the guy the benefit of the doubt, I find it highly unlikely that he would have reached this level of competition training like that.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Laura Bollschweiler said:


> Soo funny!!! Awesome.
> 
> Laura


Yeah I forgot about the language, sorry mods it is funny if you like that type of humour I deleted it voluntarily. Just trying to make a point that not everything is as it seems in the wild west of the internet.


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## Marta Wajngarten (Jul 30, 2006)

dumb and dumber, although I wonder if the person who posted the vid (do we have any clue who it is) was a competitor or other dog person with a grudge against this guy or if it was a PETA type person who didn't care who they were targetting and just wanted to make the sport look bad. From watching the other vids on the channel, it seems like the latter. Divided we fall.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Geoff Empey said:


> Yeah I forgot about the language, sorry mods it is funny if you like that type of humour I deleted it voluntarily. Just trying to make a point that not everything is as it seems in the wild west of the internet.


Well I enjoyed it! It led me to some of the other dubbed video's which were also funny.


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## Karen Havins (Apr 22, 2012)

Robin Van Hecke said:


> I have to say, that is pretty funny more so coming from someone whose signature line is: "cry Havoc! let loose the dogs of war..."


I guess I don't see the correlation


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Karen Havins said:


> Dressage whips aren't typically that color.


I always bought basic black, but last time I bought a dressage whip they had black, white, red, brown, blue, green, etc. I think I even remember seeing hot pink.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Some more action from the 2012 FCI IPO Champs. It's right out of star wars as the dog 'strikes back' and we even call Elvis!! 

http://youtu.be/LugZI4dzEcE


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## Karen Havins (Apr 22, 2012)

When I was little I'd have begged for hot pink...but we stick to black so we can use it in the show ring! 
Now they have BLING on them...and some with sexy hand carved wooden handles with bling set in silver and gold! *drool

Sorry, I like things that sparkle


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## Keith Jenkins (Jun 6, 2007)

Geoff Empey said:


> Some more action from the 2012 FCI IPO Champs. It's right out of star wars as the dog 'strikes back' and we even call Elvis!!
> 
> http://youtu.be/LugZI4dzEcE


Next time put a warning label...I was drinking a soda...well you can figure out the rest! =D>


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Keith Jenkins said:


> Next time put a warning label...I was drinking a soda...well you can figure out the rest! =D>


It could've been worse Keith, he could've been wearing a thong or gone commando! LOL!


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## Gerald Guay (Jun 15, 2010)

Does anyone think the FCI would ban this handler for a year without giving him a hearing? We do no know anything except what was on the video. FCI may have also interviewed witnesses. Maybe some of our European friends have more information.


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## Keith Jenkins (Jun 6, 2007)

Geoff Empey said:


> It could've been worse Keith, he could've been wearing a thong or gone commando! LOL!


Great...now I'll have to pour clorox in my ear to get that image out of my mind's eye... :-&:-&


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Gerald Guay said:


> Does anyone think the FCI would ban this handler for a year without giving him a hearing?


Yes.

And there is no way in hell you can have a FAIR hearing in such a short time.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Also banning for a year is nothing.


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## Gerald Guay (Jun 15, 2010)

Christopher,

You are right. One year is a mere slap on the hands.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Gerald Guay said:


> Does anyone think the FCI would ban this handler for a year without giving him a hearing? We do no know anything except what was on the video. FCI may have also interviewed witnesses. Maybe some of our European friends have more information.


I was wondering that as well. It seems arbitrarily wrong to suspend him without a hearing. To me he should be suspended, pending a hearing. Then the FCI should expedite a hearing knowing that the event is forthcoming. Unless the guy was charged criminally, I think the FCI could be legally wrong in denying him the chance to compete based on an obviously doctored video, no matter what it shows.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

I watched it with the sound off. EH who knows...taking the editing into consideration, it is hard for me to say anything about it.

Maybe that dog was being a total asshole..not enough there to see what the dog was doing the whole time...

Not for me to judge, especially not based on a heavily edited, sound track added video, made for and posted on an anti-abuse video channel that was obviously put together to suit an agenda...


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

My sincere apologies to Katie Finlay for stealing this right off her FB page but I had to......I just couldn't resist...
#-o

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LugZI4dzEcE&feature=player_embedded#!


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

Lol no worries Susan!! I hope that poor guy is laughing with us!


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

So no one sees this guy as completely arrogant and not to mention stupid to conduct himself in this manner in public? If you think posting the video is bad for all doggiedom and fuel for the AR groups what does that say about the handler's behavior? Certainly doesn't make it debatable. There are too many occurences to make it debatable even with the added sound. If posting the video does dog sports a disservice so does the handler behavior in a public venue. 

T


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> So no one sees this guy as completely arrogant and not to mention stupid to conduct himself in this manner in public? If you think posting the video is bad for all doggiedom and fuel for the AR groups what does that say about the handler's behavior? Certainly doesn't make it debatable. There are too many occurences to make it debatable even with the added sound. If posting the video does dog sports a disservice so does the handler behavior in a public venue.
> 
> T


Are we sure this is in public? I watched it a bunch of times, if appears to me that in the video, there is footage that is repeated in it, on several occasions.. so it is hard to say how much of that really happened..in totality.

arrogant? no..not too bright..possibly.

It is also hard to say how many times the dog was actually struck, or if the dog even yelped at all from it.

Not sticking up for that training, just saying it is to highly edited for me to get worked up about internally.

So if this was a private setting, does that make a difference to you?

I watched all the videos, most all are not abusive in my mind..maybe that one, with the fat dog.. and this one here, and a few are videos showing all positive techniques with service dogs mostly..so this is a positive only type, activist, that is doing their best to label anyone who uses other methods as abusive..

Watch this one on the same channel without sound...and then with sound.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iNT4OjwLhAw&feature=relmfu

This is not even a covert/treetop film...but not in public either it doesnt look like....probably a film that they just found online, and then dubbed the audio over, there is simply no evidence that the guy is even using the collar as described in the video. 

or this one LOL..described as dog absue...person admitted changing sound, probably to block out the praise given, if I had to guess...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z1srZU6EK24&list=UUwGCtSrK04aaBG7NN6Vuspg&index=12&feature=plcp

or this one, the last minute or so, shows the interaction with the dog. also labeled as abuse..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3AnaM1k2V0&list=UUwGCtSrK04aaBG7NN6Vuspg&index=13&feature=plcp

if those are abuse, I guess the only answer is to let all dogs go free, and frolic in fields of flowers all day.


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## Daniel Lybbert (Nov 23, 2010)

Has the handler won trials? gone to the worlds? Anything like that?


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Daniel Lybbert said:


> Has the handler won trials? gone to the worlds? Anything like that?


I don't know what his trial history is, but since he was specifically excluded from the 2012 FCI Worlds, I would say it's safe to say he's at least qualified to go to a worlds.


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## Mario Fernandez (Jun 21, 2008)

Luxembourg, Patrick home country may also put a ban on him for competing as well. Some countries don't need a qualification trial to go to international events. 

Patrick international trial history is the following:

He competed at the FMBB in 2002-2003 and the FCI CH 2002, 2003, 2005, 2006 and 2011-2012.


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## Daniel Lybbert (Nov 23, 2010)

> He competed at the FMBB in 2002-2003 and the FCI CH 2002, 2003, 2005, 2006 and 2011-2012.


Based on that I wouldnt condem him for giving his dog a licken. I would probably try and learn from him.


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## jim stevens (Jan 30, 2012)

The really rough trainers quite often get good results, as they don't allow for any gray area, a dog knows black and white, right and wrong. I have seen a lot of them in the horse business, the problem is it only works with some animals, and they normally only know the one way. In other words, on the ones strong enough to be trained in this method it works very well, the others are pretty much ruined. Of course a good number of them are also good enough at picking the ones with the right personality for them to train that they also don't ruin many.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> Are we sure this is in public? I watched it a bunch of times, if appears to me that in the video, there is footage that is repeated in it, on several occasions.. so it is hard to say how much of that really happened..in totality.
> 
> arrogant? no..not too bright..possibly.
> 
> ...


 
Haven't watched your videos or labeled anything "abuse." The issue for me isn't whether its abuse or not. You can debate that until the cows come home. I've long said dog trainers ought to be really careful about what they post on the internet and in terms of how it can be interpreted. We need to be mindful of the atmosphere we live in and if nothing else what is considered PC and what isn't. I was training somewhere a few weeks ago and someone whips out their phone and starts videoing and wasn't too happy when I said I don't want me training posted on her website, FB or youtube. We live in an age of "perception" and/or what it "looks like." If you have zero awareness or regard for that then you reap what you sow.

T


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

Just one thing to say:

Stop "fixing" issues in a place where scumbag rats can be lurking. 

I used to compete in show jumping (horses)... Sometimes you gotta do, what you gotta do and its nobody's business. Just be careful where you do it.


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## jim stevens (Jan 30, 2012)

Tiago Fontes said:


> Just one thing to say:
> 
> Stop "fixing" issues in a place where scumbag rats can be lurking.
> 
> I used to compete in show jumping (horses)... Sometimes you gotta do, what you gotta do and its nobody's business. Just be careful where you do it.


That is exactly what I meant when I was talking about trainers training one way when grandma is watching her horse work, then giving them a buttkicking in private. If you aren't there when the whole process is being done, trust me you don't know. I'm sure it's no different. Anyone ever try to get a stud horse to be a gentleman with a clicker, LOL!!!!! You need a hot shot instead.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Tiago Fontes said:


> Just one thing to say:
> 
> Stop "fixing" issues in a place where scumbag rats can be lurking.
> 
> I used to compete in show jumping (horses)... Sometimes you gotta do, what you gotta do and its nobody's business. Just be careful where you do it.


Looks to me like the guy was training on a private training field, not out in a public space. He should have known to look in the trees for lurking paparazzi? Hindsight is always 50/50.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

jim stevens said:


> The really rough trainers quite often get good results, as they don't allow for any gray area, a dog knows black and white, right and wrong. I have seen a lot of them in the horse business, the problem is it only works with some animals, and they normally only know the one way. In other words, on the ones strong enough to be trained in this method it works very well, the others are pretty much ruined. Of course a good number of them are also good enough at picking the ones with the right personality for them to train that they also don't ruin many.


I think it works with handlers who do not pussify their dogs from puppy onwards. Many handlers tend to wait and see what the pup is "up to" but this is too late. Pup has alread sussed handler out.

One doesn't have to be brutal to convey to a pup that one wants results. Once a pup knows where it stands with it's handler, it's either follow the leader or "let's see how we can finish him off".


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

susan tuck said:


> Looks to me like the guy was training on a private training field, not out in a public space. He should have known to look in the trees for lurking paparazzi? Hindsight is always 50/50.


 
It's as simple as this:

The "paparazzi" didnt just go there with a camera on "that" given day and got lucky... Im sure he has been studying and trying to find breaches in these people's training methods. Possibly got a hint or two that on that field, people train working dogs, etc... 

In other words, dont risk hard corrections where you can easily get spotted. Try doing some training indoors and come out with the politically correct bullshit when you arent going to employ methods which could be distorted and edited. 

It's called being paranoid, lol.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Personally I don't have the luxury of indoor training facilities and I'm pretty sure I'm not the Lone Ranger in that regard. As to what can be distorted, pretty much anything can be distorted by a person with an agenda. Given the knee jerk reaction of so many who jumped on the bandwagon condemning the handler based on a heavily edited, looped and dubbed video, which obviously is exactly the reaction the videographer was looking for, I'm sure this won't be the last time.

I'm not sure what the answer is, but I'm also not sure hiding from AR types is the answer.


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## jim stevens (Jan 30, 2012)

To me it's no different than disciplining a child. It is best not to do it in public. I have seen kids raised with nothing but positives, they end up spoiled and lazy, IMO. No difference!

I have had a lot of experience with highly competitive animal trainers, as I have said, if they are making a living at it, they often train different when the customer isn't there. Often the horses they were so gentle with when the owners are around, have some spur marks on their shoulders from something.


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## Lisa Brazeau (May 6, 2010)

That is such a false equivalency! There is a right way, and a wrong way to discipline a child. This is not a debate about the efficacy or necessity of corrections. The question is, is this abusive? The answer to that question is yes.

This guy is correcting his dog. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=idW63NU3VdQ&list=UUwGCtSrK04aaBG7NN6Vuspg&index=4&feature=plcp

Is he doing it abusively? HELL YES!

Maybe instead of blaming everything on PETA freaks, people should approach their training with new ideas, instead of more equipment and pain. That would help the dog sport world a whole lot more than trying to cover it up.

Full disclosure: I have used an ecollar, a prong collar, a slip collar, and a heeling stick - but never like these people.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

With regards to the original video this thread is about, I don't know one way or the other, because the only thing I have to judge is an edited, looped, dubbed video posted by someone with an agenda. 

I refuse to jump to conclusions and judge someone based upon one doctored video. Personally I would want to talk to witnesses, see original non-edited video, find out what precluded this action, etc.. BEFORE I hung someone out to dry.

The video you just posted Lisa, the one of a forced retrieve being trained by someone who lost their temper, I think any time someone corrects their dog when they lose their temper it can be abusive, BUT I don't have a problem with a dog being taught a forced retrieve, in and of itself.


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## jim stevens (Jan 30, 2012)

I''m with Susan, it's not right to judge based on a mocked up video probably done by someone that had an ax to grind. the retriever video was much worse IMO.


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## Rik Wolterbeek (Jul 19, 2009)

Tiago Fontes said:


> It's as simple as this:
> 
> The "paparazzi" didnt just go there with a camera on "that" given day and got lucky... Im sure he has been studying and trying to find breaches in these people's training methods. Possibly got a hint or two that on that field, people train working dogs, etc...
> 
> ...


+1


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

[QUOTE/] The video ..... of a forced retrieve being trained by someone who lost their temper, I think any time someone corrects their dog when they lose their temper it can be abusive .... [/QUOTE]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=idW63NU3VdQ&list=UUwGCtSrK04aaBG7NN6Vuspg&index=4&feature=plcp

At what point would you say he lost his temper?


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

When the leash pinched his F.U.P.A


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

A question and a comment:

Will, what the heck is FUPA? 

I was hoping the dog would finally say; You know what, I've had enough of your cowardly crap and I think I'm going to eat your punk ass. That's my comment.

DFrost


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Connie Sutherland said:


> [QUOTE/] The video ..... of a forced retrieve being trained by someone who lost their temper, I think any time someone corrects their dog when they lose their temper it can be abusive ....


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=idW63NU3VdQ&list=UUwGCtSrK04aaBG7NN6Vuspg&index=4&feature=plcp

At what point would you say he lost his temper?[/QUOTE]

I think he was pissed from the very beginning, when the dog made a move towards the whip hand, obviously had happened before. Sloppy shitty work and the dog suffers for it.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

susan tuck said:


> ... I think he was pissed from the very beginning, when the dog made a move towards the whip hand, obviously had happened before. Sloppy shitty work and the dog suffers for it.


I think he was an a$$hole from the first minute too. That was why I was looking for clarification on "losing his temper," which to me kind of implies a brief flash of mindless anger. He started out an a$$hole and remained one throughout, and the abuse, IMO, was matter-of-course routine to him.

"Sloppy shitty work" doesn't come close to my own opinion.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

i've worked with more than a few dogs that were previously "trained" by people who did not want the owner around ... they came up with a variety of reasons why it was "best" to NOT have the owner there :-(

and i'm not so naive to understand a dog will often respond in a different way when the owner is NOT present ...that's a no brainer

but for EVERY dog i worked with that the trainer would never allow the owner to watch being "worked", the majority were "dog attitude" problems and all were f'd up ... most were evaluated as either "hard headed" or "naturally aggressive", and the owner was told the dog would not get over it

but i still feel strongly if some trainer says you can't watch them when they are working with your dog, it should be an immediate red flag and you should pack up and go elsewhere
- because they are usually using heavy compulsion to try and get a result faster and/or trying to break the dog down and show them who is "boss" 
- with some dogs it might work ... with others it just hardens the dog even more ... obviously the ones i get are usually in the latter category 

i also feel the "highly edited" video shows a LOT of crap training technique, whether or not there was also some "good" training mixed in that was edited out ... obviously someone had an agenda to put the clip together, but the crap was there and if you can't/won't see it, either you train that way, or you can't read a dog very well imnsho :-(


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

rick smith said:


> i've worked with more than a few dogs that were previously "trained" by people who did not want the owner around ... they came up with a variety of reasons why it was "best" to NOT have the owner there :-(
> 
> and i'm not so naive to understand a dog will often respond in a different way when the owner is NOT present ...that's a no brainer
> 
> ...


I don't know if its that B & W. I train/trial a dog that is clicker trained with me and if his owners are around, his work suffers. As for the posted video---agreed. Also agree w/ Connie on the retrieve video. That one needs some meditation time in a cell.

T


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

In both videos the dogs were trying to get away from the handler. If the dog is trying like hell to avoid the handler and the handler has to chase the dog around while beating it, it's abuse. 
I have no objection to a hard correction but to continue it like both these handlers do is loss of control. There's, not the dogs. If the dog is coming up the leash then obviously something serious needs to be done. If the dog stops the attack or tries to get away and the "corrections" continue then it abuse. You've proven you point. Why continue! 
As to trainers that train differently while the owner isn't there. That makes no sense simply because when the owner gets the dog back it's not going to get the same treatment if it disobeys. Then what? Is the owner then a pussy because it wont beat the crap out of the dog. 
If the trainer feels the dog needs this sort of training then how does he/she expect the owner to follow up when the dog doesn't perform at home.
If you can't train the dog and get results in front of the owner then the dog needs to be in another trainer's hand because you can't do the job. I doubt you'll convince anyone that's correct training, sound or not, edited or not. JMO of course!


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

David Frost said:


> A question and a comment:
> 
> Will, what the heck is FUPA?
> 
> ...


Fat Upper Private Area...to put it kindly..


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Geoff I agree and video is hard to hide from...someone should have strapped on a set and take the stick to this "trainer!"


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## Chip Blasiole (Jun 7, 2006)

I took a quick look at the video and skimmed the responses to it. My impression is that this training approach highlights the pitfalls of positive punishment, in which the punishing becomes more reinforcing to the punisher, while creating a situation which makes it more difficult for the dog to learn the behavior expected of him. The trainer wasn't punishing specific behaviors and then stopping the punishment, and giving the dog a chance to recover and figure out how to correct the behavior. It is hard for a dog/animal/person to learn under extreme punishment. This training looked ego driven, not well thought out and damaging to the relationship between the dog and the handler. Also, based on the dog's reactions, he didn't look like a particularly hard, dominant dog, or else the handler probably would not have gotten away with his abusive approach.
Another way to look at this approach is do you think the handler was having fun or feeling good about any progress between him and his dog? Again, if the handler got the desired results and he feels good about their "progress," I think there is an element of sadism involved. I know some high level trainers use such extreme approaches, but I'd like to think there are smarter ways to achieve results.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Howard Gaines III said:


> Geoff I agree and video is hard to hide from...someone should have strapped on a set and take the stick to this "trainer!"


I notice you and Kieth both are taking this schoolyard justice stance, but let me give you a little reality check.




I have seen both of you and if I were to place my money on a winner of that fight, it would be the dog beater.
This guy is probably not alone. So when "strap your set on" and come on the field, you should look behind you because his team will be emptying the dugout. But on the bright side Europe has free health care.
What you are talking about is criminal. Have fun dealing with those consequences.








Once you are no longer Adebisi's plaything and get back to the US, you would most likely have the national club you are a part of heaping more disciplinary action on you.
Meanwhile Herr Schlager is going to take his dog back home and continue doing what he has been doing for years. 


But have at it tough guys. :razz:


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## Keith Jenkins (Jun 6, 2007)

WTF are you rambling about Christopher other than nothing....


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Christopher, I suspect that most of the readers of this thread are completely aware that _"someone should have strapped on a set and taken the stick to this "trainer!"_ may have been an angry way of saying _"this a$$hole deserved to have a taste of his own medicine"_ and didn't really need "a little reality check." 

And I personally would add my opinion that someone present for sh*t sure should have taken whatever non-criminal steps were available to intervene.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Connie sorry I took these guys for the real macho he men characters that they portray on the internets. My bad.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Connie Sutherland said:


> And I personally would add my opinion that someone present for sh*t sure should have taken whatever non-criminal steps were available to intervene.


Ok if this is the case, how do you know that every single person that saw it didn't pursue non criminal steps?


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Christopher Smith said:


> Ok if this is the case, how do you know that every single person that saw it didn't pursue non criminal steps?


I don't! Maybe they did! If so, AWESOME!

What the heck is your point?

If no one did, then IMPO, shame. If they did, again IMPO, kudos!


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Connie Sutherland said:


> What the heck is your point?


If you can't beat the guy up and you don't know if the witnesses reported it to the authorities, then why the hell are people upset with anybody in the video other than the a-hole with the stick?


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

I can answer only for myself ..... I'm "upset" (your word) with witnesses if they did not intervene, and it appears that not only did no one do that .... but no one seems to have even sought intervention from someone in authority. 

If they DID, great. But I went to some fair trouble to find anything at all, and failed. I even searched FB, and that's not a venue I frequent.

Certainly could be entirely wrong, and maybe you discovered something much different. 

It would be very good to be corrected about this and to be told how wrong my conclusion is.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Connie Sutherland said:


> I can answer only for myself ..... I'm "upset" (your word) with witnesses if they did not intervene, and it appears that not only did no one do that .... but no one seems to have even sought intervention from someone in authority.


How can you know what was done when your only reference is a very edited video? So for instance, How did the dog get off of the field? You don't know. Someone very well may have stepped up, explained to him that he was doing was wrong and he found enlightenment and walked his dog off the field. 

And it's obvious that some type of authority was advised of the situation because the guy was disciplined the day of the incident. 



> If they DID, great. But I went to some fair trouble to find anything at all, and failed. I even searched FB, and that's not a venue I frequent.


Facebook might not be the end of the road for research into this. Why not go here? http://fci.be Or contact these guys? http://www.fci.be/uploaded_files/UTILITY-delegates.pdf


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

FB was the one source I spoke of because it's so unusual for me.

_
"I went to some fair trouble to find anything at all"_ means that I went beyond "a very edited video." 

:lol:


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Christopher Smith said:


> Connie sorry I took these guys for the real macho he men characters that they portray on the internets. My bad.


Yes Christopher it is good that they were called out by a bigger and badder internet big dick swinger to put them in their places. Congratulations!!!


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Connie Sutherland said:


> FB was the one source I spoke of because it's so unusual for me.
> 
> _
> "I went to some fair trouble to find anything at all"_ means that I went beyond "a very edited video."
> ...


Cool. What 'd you find out? Who did you ask?


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Anyone who beats a kid or dog and says it's training doesn't have a F-ing clue. I'm a retired vocational teacher from the public school system. You can't sit around and say or do nothing and watch a poor dog or kid have their a$$ handed to them and go "OH WELL!." Candy a$$ behavior isn't in my background...you don't know me at all.=;

Second, those who sit on the sidelines and don't do or say something to correct the issue are JUST as bad as the actor. *Don't worry about me or my safety...God has me fully equipped for all my journeys! *

Lastly, you won't see me teach or train like that. If frustration sets in, and it has, stop the lesson for the day and figure out a better way to make the two or four legged student learn. It's not the student---it's the teacher and the methods.=;


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## Katie Finlay (Jan 31, 2010)

I think the point was that people obviously did do something if this was filmed, edited and the handler was disqualified for his actions.

It's sort of blatantly obvious that someone turned this guy in for the FCI to dismiss him. I could be wrong, but I don't think the FCI spends quality time on any social media websites looking for inappropriate behavior.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Howard Gaines III said:


> Anyone who beats a kid or dog and says it's training doesn't have a F-ing clue. I'm a retired vocational teacher from the public school system. You can't sit around and say or do nothing and watch a poor dog or kid have their a$$ handed to them and go "OH WELL!." Candy a$$ behavior isn't in my background...you don't know me at all.=;


I never doubted you were serious. O


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