# 3/4 Pike linebred pup bitework



## Tiago Fontes

7 months old male, first time on the suit.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YB2t-bQHJ34 


Regards


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## Mike Di Rago

Tiago,
Nice work,and thanks for posting this video.Is thhe decoy use to doing suitework? Just a question,not a comment 
Mike


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## Tiago Fontes

Yes, he is a KNPV decoy. 

But that is not me handling the dog. That is one of the owners who took a pup from a breeding we made.


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## Paul Cipparone

Tiago , i like the fact that the young dog is digging in for better purchase . He will settle to a more calm full bite with more training. 
Paul C.


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## Bob Scott

Nice work!


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## Terrasita Cuffie

And the rest of the pedigree?

T


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## Tiago Fontes

What about it? Of course I haven't used show or weak dogs. 

His mother is 3-3 on Maik von der Burg Hinte and 4-4 on Nick vom Heiligenbosch, which makes the pup in the video 3-4 Pike, 4-4 Maik and 5-5 Nick. 

My personal dog is a young male at almost 10 months old who is 2-3 on Pike and 4-3 on Rakker KNPV ph1. He is looking very good. 



Regards


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Tiago Fontes said:


> What about it? Of course I haven't used show or weak dogs.
> 
> His mother is 3-3 on Maik von der Burg Hinte and 4-4 on Nick vom Heiligenbosch, which makes the pup in the video 3-4 Pike, 4-4 Maik and 5-5 Nick.
> 
> My personal dog is a young male at almost 10 months old who is 2-3 on Pike and 4-3 on Rakker KNPV ph1. He is looking very good.
> 
> 
> 
> Regards


Wasn't insinuating there was anything weak or show. Just don't think one dog twice in a pedigree tells the entire story of what's there in 5 generations. For instance, what of the sire and dam and the type of dogs they are? As I've said before, when looking at a dog, I always like to see the pedigree.

T


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## patricia powers

i would enjoy seeing pedigree & videos for the pike/rakker 10 mo old as well.  have you already posted links to them?


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## Tiago Fontes

Hello, 

This is Aiko's sire, Quattro. He is finishing his training to become a patrol dog. The video shows his first time biting on the back of a truck:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wBITBzeyLFg 


Patricia, Quattro is a great grandson of Rakker ph1. Will look and see if I can find some videos of my 10 month old pup. 


Regards


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## Tiago Fontes

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Wasn't insinuating there was anything weak or show. Just don't think one dog twice in a pedigree tells the entire story of what's there in 5 generations. For instance, what of the sire and dam and the type of dogs they are? As I've said before, when looking at a dog, I always like to see the pedigree.
> 
> T


 
Here is the dam (bitework): 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Hz-BsBt4gM 


Tracking: 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zr9Y-BiuL9U&feature=youtu.be 


Regards

Tiago


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## Stefan Schaub

Tiago Fontes said:


> Here is the dam (bitework):
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Hz-BsBt4gM
> 
> 
> Tracking:
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zr9Y-BiuL9U&feature=youtu.be
> 
> 
> Regards
> 
> Tiago


i do not want sound mean or do not understand me wrong,but after all your talk how a dog must be and what you like i do not see it in any of these videos or the males video. the male have good prey drive,get the jacket and keeps it with a calm grip,real nice but not special,for example after he was reward he could let the jacket go and switch to the "bad guy" again.the female get the whole time activated with the pinch from handler or helper.in that moment the get the bite she is also not real active or try to fight. nice dogs but not special!!!

i wish also like to see the pedigree.


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## Tiago Fontes

Stefan Schaub said:


> i do not want sound mean or do not understand me wrong,but after all your talk how a dog must be and what you like i do not see it in any of these videos or the males video. the male have good prey drive,get the jacket and keeps it with a calm grip,real nice but not special,for example after he was reward he could let the jacket go and switch to the "bad guy" again.the female get the whole time activated with the pinch from handler or helper.in that moment the get the bite she is also not real active or try to fight. nice dogs but not special!!!
> 
> i wish also like to see the pedigree.


 
They are good for me and for several people who tested them. When I have new ones, will post. 


Regards


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## Stefan Schaub

Tiago Fontes said:


> They are good for me and for several people who tested them. When I have new ones, will post.
> 
> 
> Regards


What did you see in them or what part do you like special.


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## Tiago Fontes

Stefan Schaub said:


> What did you see in them or what part do you like special.


 
Male: Very good aggression, territorial, possessive, hard biter, hard hitter, no problems with slippery floors or enclosed areas, good hardness. Bites and hits hard under environmental stress. Fast dog with excellent size.

Male faults: Slow to mature. You don't really see his potential until 18 months old. 

Female: High prey drive, good aggression (not as sharp as the male), hard biting, hard hitter, possessive, very strong environmentally and dominant. When tested in Holland by a KNPV trainer was described as displaying male traits in her willingness to engage helper and sustain pressure. While in my possession has been worked by a former French Ring decoy/trainer and was deemed as very intense. Also tested by a police dog trainer and described as "something you don't easily find in GSD's. Strong, hard, big and very hard biter". These were his words. I am breeding her next year to a Rakker son. 

Female faults: When decoys increase pressure, control can be lost. Stubborn. Don't really consider these traits as faults since I personally like to see them in a breeding female.


Regards


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## Stefan Schaub

Why do you not post the pedigree??


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## Christopher Smith

Tiago, do you like the way that bitch tracks?

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## Tiago Fontes

Stefan Schaub said:


> Why do you not post the pedigree??


 
Ask nicely, lol.


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## Tiago Fontes

Christopher Smith said:


> Tiago, do you like the way that bitch tracks?
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


 
Yes. Do you like her son?


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## Christopher Smith

He's Ok from what I see in the video. I would be glad to have him in my club, but not in my yard. 

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## Terrasita Cuffie

What is wrapped around the bitche's flank in the tracking video?

T


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## Christopher Smith

A bottcher

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## Terrasita Cuffie

Christopher Smith said:


> A bottcher
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App



Dare I ask???? Not the demeanor I would want in a working/tracking dog but too each's own.

T


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## Christopher Smith

Ask what?

Me neither, but as you said...to each his own.

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## Terrasita Cuffie

Christopher Smith said:


> Ask what?
> 
> Me neither, but as you said...to each his own.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App



I had to google bottcher


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## Haz Othman

The pup looks good Tiago. Whats the issue with the tracking?


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## Christopher Smith

Haz Othman said:


> Whats the issue with the tracking?


The bitch is too nervous and stressed. She looks around nervously. The person with the camera worries her. She draws her lips back, licks her lips and doesn't go all the way down. She slinks down the track. She is not confident and secure during her work.

I'm not going to speculate on the cause of this behavior, but I don't see a pinch or e-collar on the bitch.:-k


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## Marcel Winter

What is the pedigree of the dog 1st video?

I know Gardefense kennels breed many times over Pike , I have seen in KNPV in Holland
different good offspring over Gideon Gardefense a Pike son.I owned a son before training
KNPV was very satisfied.

Marcel


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## Tiago Fontes

Marcel Winter said:


> What is the pedigree of the dog 1st video?
> 
> I know Gardefense kennels breed many times over Pike , I have seen in KNPV in Holland
> different good offspring over Gideon Gardefense a Pike son.I owned a son before training
> KNPV was very satisfied.
> 
> Marcel


Hello Marcel, 

The dog in the first video is out of Quattro Gardefense / Kiera. Quattro is Otis Gardefense's brother (not the same litter, but repeat combination). 

I currently have a 9 month old pup out of Pike Gardefense/Gina Gardefense (linebreeding 2-3 on old Pike and 4-3 Rakker, etc). 

Regards


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## Marcel Winter

Tiago Fontes said:


> Hello Marcel,
> 
> The dog in the first video is out of Quattro Gardefense / Kiera. Quattro is Otis Gardefense's brother (not the same litter, but repeat combination).
> 
> I currently have a 9 month old pup out of Pike Gardefense/Gina Gardefense (linebreeding 2-3 on old Pike and 4-3 Rakker, etc).
> 
> Regards



Very nice Jan is training Pike Gardefense for his PH-1 looks promising . Jan did a great job breeding
over the Pike lines . Also the Otis Gardefense offspring is very interesting to follow .

Marcel


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## Tiago Fontes

Marcel Winter said:


> Very nice Jan is training Pike Gardefense for his PH-1 looks promising . Jan did a great job breeding
> over the Pike lines . Also the Otis Gardefense offspring is very interesting to follow .
> 
> Marcel


 
Yes, it is still early to tell...but so far, they are showing good things (both pups out of Quattro and my Pike son). 

I reckon you owned Sioux?


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## Marcel Winter

Tiago Fontes said:


> Yes, it is still early to tell...but so far, they are showing good things (both pups out of Quattro and my Pike son).
> 
> I reckon you owned Sioux?


 Yes I owned Sioux he is now in the USA for police dog patrol/dual purpose 


Marcel


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga

Stefan Schaub said:


> i do not want sound mean or do not understand me wrong,but after all your talk how a dog must be and what you like i do not see it in any of these videos or the males video. the male have good prey drive,get the jacket and keeps it with a calm grip,real nice but not special,for example after he was reward he could let the jacket go and switch to the "bad guy" again.the female get the whole time activated with the pinch from handler or helper.in that moment the get the bite she is also not real active or try to fight. nice dogs but not special!!!
> 
> i wish also like to see the pedigree.


@ Mr Stephan
I'm a bit confused, i used to think its natural for some dogs to just hold the sleeve with a firm grip if the decoy is not moving. What is the desired behaviour, must there be head shaking or tugging of the sleeve?


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## Marcel Winter

It was the 1st time the dog bite on the suit for a 7 months old GSD looks very nice ,
the dog have to learn on the suit biceps for a push bite it is very different than IPO sleeve. 

Marcel


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## Gregory Doud

Tiago Fontes said:


> 7 months old male, first time on the suit.
> 
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YB2t-bQHJ34
> 
> 
> Regards


 
For being only seven months old and it being his first time on the suit it was very nice. Wish you much success with him.  - Greg


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## Tiago Fontes

Marcel Winter said:


> It was the 1st time the dog bite on the suit for a 7 months old GSD looks very nice ,
> the dog have to learn on the suit biceps for a push bite it is very different than IPO sleeve.
> 
> Marcel


 
And first time that pup ever saw that decoy...lol 

I would love to see videos of 7 month old GSD pups doing the same.


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## Tiago Fontes

Gregory Doud said:


> For being only seven months old and it being his first time on the suit it was very nice. Wish you much success with him.  - Greg


 
Thank you very much. I am not the handler, just the breeder. 

I am happy with the drives he's showing at 7 months.


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## Tiago Fontes

Oluwatobi Odunuga said:


> @ Mr Stephan
> I'm a bit confused, i used to think its natural for some dogs to just hold the sleeve with a firm grip if the decoy is not moving. What is the desired behaviour, must there be head shaking or tugging of the sleeve?


 
People don't even have in consideration the age of the dog and how many times he's been on the back of a truck biting... it was his first time doing it. Of course it was prey work... 
BTW, that dog has never been on a table or stimulated with whips to get in drive, lol.

Will he bite for real? lol ... Yes...he already has. And bites very hard.


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## jamie lind

Tiago Fontes said:


> And first time that pup ever saw that decoy...lol
> 
> I would love to see videos of 7 month old GSD pups doing the same.


Is this for some reason a shot at me? Also I just checked out the video you sent me of him at 4.5 months old and it appears to be the same decoy wearing a suit. Granted I'm looking at it on a cell phone so I can't see the face. Also I didn't see a bite but he is wearing a suit so I was assume a bite was involved. Either way I like the video of the pup. I might burn the tracking video of the mom though.


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## Tiago Fontes

Why would I give a shot at you? I have absolutely no reasons to give you a shot... I like your dog and training. If I wanted it to be about you/your dog I would have posted on your thread. 

What I said is true... Show me 7 month old GSD pups on the suit on different decoys. 

I just checked the 4 month old video...It's not the same decoy. If you would like me to upload the 4 month old video, let me know.


Regards


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## jamie lind

Tiago Fontes said:


> Why would I give a shot at you? I have absolutely no reasons to give you a shot... I like your dog and training. If I wanted it to be about you/your dog I would have posted on your thread.
> 
> What I said is true... Show me 7 month old GSD pups on the suit on different decoys.
> 
> I just checked the 4 month old video...It's not the same decoy. If you would like me to upload the 4 month old video, let me know.
> 
> 
> Regards


Sorry for the confusion. No thanks I've seen the video already.


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## Tiago Fontes

jamie lind said:


> Sorry for the confusion. No thanks I've seen the video already.


 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s4eEjub75TM Here you go. There was no biting because the dog was teething then. 


Regards


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## Marcel Winter

Have seen good dogs from this age over Pike v/d S ,Nick v H and Tyson v/d Sch in KNPV
also some young Drago vom P offspring looking promising, let the videos coming 
nice stuff .

Marcel


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## Stefan Schaub

Oluwatobi Odunuga said:


> @ Mr Stephan
> I'm a bit confused, i used to think its natural for some dogs to just hold the sleeve with a firm grip if the decoy is not moving. What is the desired behaviour, must there be head shaking or tugging of the sleeve?


it depends what work you do,if you want a dog for real work he should be able to switch!!!that means if you give the jacket away he should in my opinion ***** the jacket and should take the next good part on the helper. i do not care if he bite his arm leg,belly or where ever. focus must stay on the "bad guy" and not on the jacket.i do not know how old the dog was on the movie when he jumps on the pick up, but it is not really environmental stress.


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## Tiago Fontes

Stefan Schaub said:


> it depends what work you do,if you want a dog for real work he should be able to switch!!!that means if you give the jacket away he should in my opinion ***** the jacket and should take the next good part on the helper. i do not care if he bite his arm leg,belly or where ever. focus must stay on the "bad guy" and not on the jacket.i do not know how old the dog was on the movie when he jumps on the pick up, but it is not really environmental stress.



He is used as a patrol dog and has bit for real... He was 13 months in the video.

Do you have any suit work with your dogs? Any 7 month old pups on the suit?

Still interested in the pedigree of the pup?


Regards


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## Tiago Fontes

Christopher Smith said:


> He's Ok from what I see in the video. I would be glad to have him in my club, but not in my yard.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App



Any chance of showing what you keep in your yard? 


Thanks


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## Stefan Schaub

Tiago Fontes said:


> He is used as a patrol dog and has bit for real... He was 13 months in the video.
> 
> Do you have any suit work with your dogs? Any 7 month old pups on the suit?
> 
> Still interested in the pedigree of the pup?
> 
> 
> Regards


no i do not have any movies with my seven month old dogs on a suit,my breed is not good enough for that.

what do you make a big deal about the pedigree???


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## Tiago Fontes

Stefan Schaub said:


> no i do not have any movies with my seven month old dogs on a suit,my breed is not good enough for that.
> 
> what do you make a big deal about the pedigree???


I did not attack your breeding nor said it was not good enough to have dogs on the suit. Such statement would be a little ridiculous, dont you think? Simply asked for a video of one of your dogs on the suit at 7 months old... If you dont have one or your clients, thats ok. You're into IPO, it's understandable. 

I dont make a big deal about this specific pedigree, because I know it out of my head... What is amusing to me is that for you (judging from other threads) a pedigree says nothing about a dog or the influence behind it's drives. I learned that, before making a breeding you should study the pedigree and see what you can get in theory...then do it and see if the breeding produced what you expected/studied in theory.

I could be wrong, though.


Regards


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## Marcel Winter

Stefan Schaub said:


> no i do not have any movies with my seven month old dogs on a suit,my breed is not good enough for that.
> 
> 
> www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/1005614/Trossacks-Fortune-Nick
> 
> www.youtube.com/watch?v=21_ldubgJPA


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## Tiago Fontes

What do you think of this dog's guarding? 

I like his entries. Very nice.

No video at 7 months?


Regards


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## Marcel Winter

Tiago Fontes said:


> What do you think of this dog's guarding?
> 
> I like his entries. Very nice.
> 
> No video at 7 months?
> 
> 
> Regards



I have seen this dog a few time for real the natural guarding isn,t good but the attacks are
spectacular , ;-)


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## Tiago Fontes

Marcel Winter said:


> I have seen this dog a few time for real the natural guarding isn,t good but the attacks are
> spectacular , ;-)



The natural guarding says so much about a dog...I see no natural guarding, but who am I to even question this dog's quality!

Yes, his entries are very nice.


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## Stefan Schaub

Tiago Fontes said:


> I did not attack your breeding nor said it was not good enough to have dogs on the suit. Such statement would be a little ridiculous, dont you think? Simply asked for a video of one of your dogs on the suit at 7 months old... If you dont have one or your clients, thats ok. You're into IPO, it's understandable.
> 
> I dont make a big deal about this specific pedigree, because I know it out of my head... What is amusing to me is that for you (judging from other threads) a pedigree says nothing about a dog or the influence behind it's drives. I learned that, before making a breeding you should study the pedigree and see what you can get in theory...then do it and see if the breeding produced what you expected/studied in theory.
> 
> I could be wrong, though.
> 
> 
> Regards


you post here is about the pike line breeding!!every normal breeder want know how you have put the line breeding together. and yes the pedigree does not matter in first place!!!!


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## Stefan Schaub

Marcel Winter said:


> Stefan Schaub said:
> 
> 
> 
> no i do not have any movies with my seven month old dogs on a suit,my breed is not good enough for that.
> 
> 
> www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/1005614/Trossacks-Fortune-Nick
> 
> www.youtube.com/watch?v=21_ldubgJPA
> 
> 
> 
> Marcel thank you
> 
> there are many dogs in KNPV out of my dogs,but i did not breed them. they do nat carry my name,the honor is by the breeder.
Click to expand...


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## Terrasita Cuffie

I don't know how its all attributed to Pike, when you have other dogs added to the mix. People always seem to be in a rush to say how early a dog bit something whether its a sleeve or a suit and it says WHAT about the dog's character? A seven month old puppy bites "for real," says what? Without knowing the context and other things about him, it can be a positive or a negative. I don't know if anyone cares if their dog is on the suit at 7 months because there are other things to mold and how early they will bite a suit just may not be that important. Its equipment just like anything else. You get "for a puppy and the first time, that's fine" but all that says is that is not the ideal picture of a dog on a suit. Therefore, I don't see the value in doing it or that it says anything special about the dog--just creating bad habits. Will be interesting to watch the development of Alice's pup. 

T


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## Christopher Smith

Tiago Fontes said:


> Any chance of showing what you keep in your yard?
> 
> 
> Thanks




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## Tiago Fontes

Christopher Smith said:


> Sent from Petguide.com Free App



More power to you!


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## Tiago Fontes

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> People always seem to be in a rush to say how early a dog bit something whether its a sleeve or a suit and it says WHAT about the dog's character? A seven month old puppy bites "for real," says what? Without knowing the context and other things about him, it can be a positive or a negative. I don't know if anyone cares if their dog is on the suit at 7 months because there are other things to mold and how early they will bite a suit just may not be that important. Its equipment just like anything else. You get "for a puppy and the first time, that's fine" but all that says is that is not the ideal picture of a dog on a suit. Therefore, I don't see the value in doing it or that it says anything special about the dog--just creating bad habits. Will be interesting to watch the development of Alice's pup.
> 
> T




Are you for real? In a breed where lack of drive is a constant complain of serious working dog enthusiasts, you dare saying that a 7 month old pup biting and digging in a suit like Aiko was is nothing special? 

What would be special in your eyes? Show me what you find special? Sheep herding? My dogs dont herd sheep... I try to make dogs to "herd" humans into submission.

BTW, I never said Pike was solely responsible for the qualities in x,y,z dog. People I respect in this breed have used Pike wisely and advised me to use him in such manner. This is theory, now we will see how it will materialize. I dont lose sleep over failure...but I lose sleep if I dont try something that has been done before with good results. 


Regards,
Tiago


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## Stefan Schaub

Tiago Fontes said:


> Are you for real? In a breed where lack of drive is a constant complain of serious working dog enthusiasts, you dare saying that a 7 month old pup biting and digging in a suit like Aiko was is nothing special?
> 
> What would be special in your eyes? Show me what you find special? Sheep herding? My dogs dont herd sheep... I try to make dogs to "herd" humans into submission.
> 
> BTW, I never said Pike was solely responsible for the qualities in x,y,z dog. People I respect in this breed have used Pike wisely and advised me to use him in such manner. This is theory, now we will see how it will materialize. I dont lose sleep over failure...but I lose sleep if I dont try something that has been done before with good results.
> 
> 
> Regards,
> Tiago


to breed that is not so hard!!


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## Tiago Fontes

Stefan Schaub said:


> you post here is about the pike line breeding!!every normal breeder want know how you have put the line breeding together. and yes the pedigree does not matter in first place!!!!



You dont want to comment on the dog... So far, all you have done is attempt to trash the sire and dam's temperament. Trust me...they are very good dogs, tested by accomplished trainers from disciplines ranging from schH to French Ring. None of our dogs have worked solely on one decoy...they were brought and exposed to different decoys from different disciplines. They had to, since the male is employed as a patrol dog. 

The female on the other hand is here for breeding. Stay tuned for the next breedings (not for sale, since my job as a lawyer, provides me enough money to be able to place dogs in good homes and not have to sell to the public). 

Why dont you tell me what you like/dislike about the pup? What would you like to see different? Your constructive view on the pup could possibly help me in future decisions. 


Regards


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## Tiago Fontes

Stefan Schaub said:


> to breed that is not so hard!!



To breed what?


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## Stefan Schaub

Tiago Fontes said:


> To breed what?


a dog that "herd" humans into submission.

they did it success full in east germany, after the wall came down and people have try to work these dogs in dual purpose they have see that they not work out. 

i can not tell you any good or bad about the puppy on the movie,he is 7 month bites a jacket!!!nice and what more??was many times on knpv fields and have seen many different dogs there but on the end it matters how much speed they show. maybe they can show a few yards sending the dog that i can see the speed or hide a ball and let him search the ball that i can see his drive, his willingness and how strong minded he is.

i do not try to make anything bad!!why should i??


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Tiago Fontes said:


> Are you for real? In a breed where lack of drive is a constant complain of serious working dog enthusiasts, you dare saying that a 7 month old pup biting and digging in a suit like Aiko was is nothing special?
> 
> What would be special in your eyes? Show me what you find special? Sheep herding? My dogs dont herd sheep... I try to make dogs to "herd" humans into submission.
> 
> BTW, I never said Pike was solely responsible for the qualities in x,y,z dog. People I respect in this breed have used Pike wisely and advised me to use him in such manner. This is theory, now we will see how it will materialize. I dont lose sleep over failure...but I lose sleep if I dont try something that has been done before with good results.
> 
> 
> Regards,
> Tiago


Really??? Herd humans into submission??? By saying 3/4 Pike linebred, you are attributing those qualities to Pike, if only by implication. However, a look at the pedigree can resolve that question. Those that have bad ass dog syndrome may think puppy bites suit is special, but no, I don't. What he will sink his teeth into is only the tip of the iceberg. Now show me has a brain and you can direct his drive. As for what I find special, I don't think you can relate to that. David Winners recently posted about a dog. That type is special to me. Uncontrollable in the pressure--not special--to me. A dog that maintains his line of communication to his handler at the peak of his drive [prey, fight, whatever]--special. The more I see, the more I believe in what the three phases of IPO is supposed to show about the totality of a dog--particularly a GSD---demanding the highest standards of course.

Oh and yes, sheep herding is very special. The GSD came from those dogs and the founder believed that if you were going to maintain the qualities of the breed, they should continue in their abilities to be stock dogs first. Now, if you just want generic bite dogs, by all means, disregard the qualities herding brings to the table. You then start getting dogs that are "unclear" or "uncontrollable in the pressure." Herding weeds those out. Its not considered a strength and its a royal PITA to train around.

T


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## Haz Othman

Tiago your right, there is nothing worse then a dog that requires constant coddling and stimulation to engage..saw it at the club all the time. Went through it with a previous dog. Never again if I can help it. A 7 month old on a suit like that looks promising.

Hows his ball drive and hunt? Is he DA?

I didnt get that the dog looked hectic from the vid.


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## Tiago Fontes

Haz Othman said:


> Tiago your right, there is nothing worse then a dog that requires constant coddling and stimulation to engage..saw it at the club all the time. Went through it with a previous dog. Never again if I can help it. A 7 month old on a suit like that looks promising.
> 
> Hows his ball drive and hunt? Is he DA?
> 
> I didnt get that the dog looked hectic from the vid.


 
I don't know how his ball and hunt drive is... Before he left to Holland, his ball drive was very nice, no dog aggression, though very possessive of his food and toys. He and his brother guarded a salmon head from an English Mastiff and a Great Dane female...was funny to see. 

I will post more videos as he progresses. 

Thank you for the nice words.


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## Tiago Fontes

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Really??? Herd humans into submission??? By saying 3/4 Pike linebred, you are attributing those qualities to Pike, if only by implication. However, a look at the pedigree can resolve that question. Those that have bad ass dog syndrome may think puppy bites suit is special, but no, I don't. What he will sink his teeth into is only the tip of the iceberg. Now show me has a brain and you can direct his drive. As for what I find special, I don't think you can relate to that. David Winners recently posted about a dog. That type is special to me. Uncontrollable in the pressure--not special--to me. A dog that maintains his line of communication to his handler at the peak of his drive [prey, fight, whatever]--special. The more I see, the more I believe in what the three phases of IPO is supposed to show about the totality of a dog--particularly a GSD---demanding the highest standards of course.
> 
> Oh and yes, sheep herding is very special. The GSD came from those dogs and the founder believed that if you were going to maintain the qualities of the breed, they should continue in their abilities to be stock dogs first. Now, if you just want generic bite dogs, by all means, disregard the qualities herding brings to the table. You then start getting dogs that are "unclear" or "uncontrollable in the pressure." Herding weeds those out. Its not considered a strength and its a royal PITA to train around.
> 
> T


 
Show me what you consider special, please.


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## Tiago Fontes

Stefan Schaub said:


> a dog that "herd" humans into submission.
> 
> they did it success full in east germany, after the wall came down and people have try to work these dogs in dual purpose they have see that they not work out.
> 
> i can not tell you any good or bad about the puppy on the movie,he is 7 month bites a jacket!!!nice and what more??was many times on knpv fields and have seen many different dogs there but on the end it matters how much speed they show. maybe they can show a few yards sending the dog that i can see the speed or hide a ball and let him search the ball that i can see his drive, his willingness and how strong minded he is.
> 
> i do not try to make anything bad!!why should i??


 
I don't think he is doing sends yet...that was his first time. When I have more videos of his training/progress, will post. 

We will see where this venture takes me. As I said, I don't lose sleep over failure...I lose sleep if I stop myself from trying to succeed. 


Regards


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Haz Othman said:


> Tiago your right, there is nothing worse then a dog that requires constant coddling and stimulation to engage..saw it at the club all the time. Went through it with a previous dog. Never again if I can help it. A 7 month old on a suit like that looks promising.
> 
> Hows his ball drive and hunt? Is he DA?
> 
> I didnt get that the dog looked hectic from the vid.


Why compare to the bottom of the barrel? Of course no one wants a dog they have to coddle and stimulate to engage. Seeing a one time video doesn't tell you the history of the dog or his experience with different types of "stimulation." More, more, more is not always better. I'd love to see more of the litter and other aspects of the dog and of course the mature trained version.

T


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## Tiago Fontes

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Why compare to the bottom of the barrel? Of course no one wants a dog they have to coddle and stimulate to engage. Seeing a one time video doesn't tell you the history of the dog or his experience with different types of "stimulation." More, more, more is not always better. I'd love to see more of the litter and other aspects of the dog and of course the mature trained version.
> 
> T


 
You know we also have a Tiekerhook female? She hunts nicely, does nice obedience but sucks in bitework...no drive, no aggression... What is the difference between her and a Lab? Perhaps the pointy ears, color, body shape...other than that, she's just a nice lab. 

For me, aside from the nice hunt, ball drive, a GSD must be very good in bitework (high in drive, strong grips and willing to fight man). If I have to concede, I will concede in the hunt drive, but not in the protection skills of a GSD. 

With this said, both dogs used in the breeding are very complete, but if one was lacking in an area, I would assure you it wouldn't be in its ability the protection work side of it. 


Regards


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Tiago Fontes said:


> Show me what you consider special, please.


I can't show you because so much of it goes to the "feel" of the dog and what I appreciate in a dog--confidence, intelligence, analysis, instinctive protection/guard, loyalty to his person/pack, clear drive, not spun up hectic reactivity, fearless environmental nerve/confidence. Bob's dog Thunder is "special" to me and what's special about him you will never see in a video or an artificial situation. Jamie's dog Bacon brings a LOT to the table to appreciate on multiple levels. He has a hardness and edge to him that makes him about two steps shy of being over the top "for me" but I think manageable if you play it smart. The dogs I label special are dogs I know a LOT about and none of it from video. People are nice enough to share the good, bad, ugly as that puppy develops in his training and into adulthood. Thunder was a dog that I saw in bite work and based on what he demonstrated there, I wanted to put him on livestock. As I thought, he was the same.

T


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Tiago Fontes said:


> You know we also have a Tiekerhook female? She hunts nicely, does nice obedience but sucks in bitework...no drive, no aggression... What is the difference between her and a Lab? Perhaps the pointy ears, color, body shape...other than that, she's just a nice lab.
> 
> For me, aside from the nice hunt, ball drive, a GSD must be very good in bitework (high in drive, strong grips and willing to fight man). If I have to concede, I will concede in the hunt drive, but not in the protection skills of a GSD.
> 
> With this said, both dogs used in the breeding are very complete, but if one was lacking in an area, I would assure you it wouldn't be in its ability the protection work side of it.
> 
> 
> Regards


For me, a GSD that does not have instinctive territoriality and protection, is not a GSD. They were never supposed to be slaves to prey satisfaction or nutso aggression.

T


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## Tiago Fontes

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> For me, a GSD that does not have instinctive territoriality and protection, is not a GSD. They were never supposed to be slaves to prey satisfaction or nutso aggression.
> 
> T


 
I find your ideas too romantic to be practical. Please tell me how a good working GSD should act. If you cant produce a video, at least tell me what you expect from the dog. 


Thanks


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## Haz Othman

Not comparing him to the bottom of the barrel. He looks good for 7 months from the video. Unless you see him in person you dont know but based on the video I like him.


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## David Winners

Tiago, thanks for sharing the video. I hope you continue to share as the dog matures and goes further through his training. The dog looks good to my untrained eye. 

I think nothing is finished yet, as no dog is anything but a puppy at 7 months. I would enjoy seeing him progress.

I think special dogs are special to individuals, and each trainer is going to label their personal favorite type of dog as special. What I find to work best in my methods, with my personality, with my end goals to consider, could be vastly different than another trainer.

Shade just accomplished her goal in sport using strictly positive training. I'm certain she picked a special dog (to her) to even attempt this with. IMHO, that same dog would be passed up by many trainers that utilize different techniques and principles, and who certainly look for different temperament characteristics.

Special is in the eye of the beholder.

David Winners


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## jamie lind

Haz Othman said:


> Not comparing him to the bottom of the barrel. He looks good for 7 months from the video. Unless you see him in person you dont know but based on the video I like him.


Nobody compared it to the bottom of the barrel. I had to reread her post too. She was quoting your post. Everyone is in agreement, I think, that he looks like a nice pup. Id also like to see more videos as he gets older.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Tiago Fontes said:


> I find your ideas too romantic to be practical. Please tell me how a good working GSD should act. If you cant produce a video, at least tell me what you expect from the dog.
> 
> 
> Thanks


I already have said what I expect and what I like in a GSD. For me its not romantic at all if you can read a dog and select for those qualities. 

T


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## Tiago Fontes

Do you have GSD's? What kind of work do you do? Any videos?


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Tiago Fontes said:


> Do you have GSD's? What kind of work do you do? Any videos?




Nope, herding mostly and no videos.

T


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## Stefan Schaub

Still no pedigree??

how are the siblings doing??


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## Tiago Fontes

Stefan Schaub said:


> Still no pedigree??
> 
> how are the siblings doing??


 
Here's the pedigree:

http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/1041984/Amy-de-Xavelha 


The siblings are doing well. There is one female I'm not a fan of, but the others are showing nice things. Will have videos of all of them by November. 



Regards


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## catherine hardigan

He looks like a nice pup, Tiago, and congratulations at finding decent working homes for your puppies. 

Is this the first litter you've bred?


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## Terrasita Cuffie

A dash of inbreeding on Mink in Kiera. Are you raising/training one of these?

T


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## Tiago Fontes

catherine hardigan said:


> He looks like a nice pup, Tiago, and congratulations at finding decent working homes for your puppies.
> 
> Is this the first litter you've bred?


 
Hello, 

Thank you. This is the first GSD litter we've bred. 


Regards


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## Tiago Fontes

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> A dash of inbreeding on Mink in Kiera. Are you raising/training one of these?
> 
> T


 
They are all within my training group and were kept here so we could see how they developed. One is going to be employed in a correctional facility, whilst all others will be doing sport work. There are two females that are showing great things and I'm excited about them. 

The dam will be bred next year to a Rakker ph1 son.

My personal dog is not one of these pups (he is a 2-3 Pike linebreeding and 4-3 Rakker).10 months old now. 


Regards


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## Marcel Winter

Tiago Fontes said:


> They are all within my training group and were kept here so we could see how they developed. One is going to be employed in a correctional facility, whilst all others will be doing sport work. There are two females that are showing great things and I'm excited about them.
> *
> The dam will be bred next year to a Rakker ph1 son.*
> 
> My personal dog is not one of these pups (he is a 2-3 Pike linebreeding and 4-3 Rakker).10 months old now.
> 
> 
> Regards



Hallo Thiago wich son of Rakker do you mean is there a son of rakker stiil alive ?

Marcel


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## Tiago Fontes

Hello Marcel, 

I prefer not to disclose that information on a public forum. For obvious reasons, I will share the information once the breeding has been done. 


Regards,

Tiago


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## Marcel Winter

Tiago Fontes said:


> Hello Marcel,
> 
> I prefer not to disclose that information on a public forum. For obvious reasons, I will share the information once the breeding has been done.
> 
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Tiago



Ok what I know direct offspring from Rakker must be older than 12 years 

Marcel


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## Tiago Fontes

Another video of the pup:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d6x9uwpBBtc 

First time on that field, first time with the decoy. 



Regards


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## Marcel Winter

Tiago Fontes said:


> Another video of the pup:
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d6x9uwpBBtc
> 
> First time on that field, first time with the decoy.
> 
> 
> 
> Regards



Nice Tiago doing a good job training with different helpers and training fields 

Marcel


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## Tiago Fontes

Marcel Winter said:


> Nice Tiago doing a good job training with different helpers and training fields
> 
> Marcel


 
Thank you.


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## Joby Becker

nice...

slow moe (my 8 month old pup) is still sloooow..


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## Tiago Fontes

Joby Becker said:


> nice...
> 
> slow moe (my 8 month old pup) is still sloooow..


 
Thanks man. 

Has she ever been on a decoy? Are you waiting to expose her to bitework after the first heat? 

I am always interested in seeing slow maturing dogs at young ages and then what they look like as adults. 


Regards


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## Joby Becker

Tiago Fontes said:


> Thanks man.
> 
> Has she ever been on a decoy? Are you waiting to expose her to bitework after the first heat?
> 
> I am always interested in seeing slow maturing dogs at young ages and then what they look like as adults.
> 
> 
> Regards


not yet, waiting for a little more maturity, nothing to do with heat cycle, she is just finally getting her "big girl" bark, the other one was ready to hospitalize people at 8-9 months LOL...


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## Tiago Fontes

Joby Becker said:


> not yet, waiting for a little more maturity, nothing to do with heat cycle, she is just finally getting her "big girl" bark, the other one was ready to hospitalize people at 8-9 months LOL...


 
Alright man... LOL

Please share videos of her when you feel like it. As I said, I love following slow maturing young dogs progress. 


Regards


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## Erik Berg

Good luck to your litter, looks nice, I guess when they are a bit older we can see if they are above nice and into the "special" category

But speaking of pedigrees and their values, recently saw a litter where the breeding female and her sister was described as "hard to find better females for sport and service, have everything that´s important for sport and service", the male also was described as a complete working GSD in the breeders view. This may very well be true and the dogs are real good but the female actually has some lines going back to UK showlines, I suppose it´s showlines if UK hasn´t got any workinglines to speak of.

So I guess this female may be good dog but not with a "good" pedigree according to many maybe, personally I don´t care what the pedigree says as long as the dog and the more immediate generations are "proven", but I guess many would look at the pedigree and be sceptical due to such "odd" lines and UK influence and such. Or what do the breeders say, would you not breed a female with a pedigree like this because it has the wrong "names"?

Pedigree of the female and a short clip on her sister that is a working policedog but also titled both in IPO and swedish program,
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=704556-winonas-cora
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fsd7VON---U


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## Tiago Fontes

Erik Berg said:


> Good luck to your litter, looks nice, I guess when they are a bit older we can see if they are above nice and into the "special" category
> 
> But speaking of pedigrees and their values, recently saw a litter where the breeding female and her sister was described as "hard to find better females for sport and service, have everything that´s important for sport and service", the male also was described as a complete working GSD in the breeders view. This may very well be true and the dogs are real good but the female actually has some lines going back to UK showlines, I suppose it´s showlines if UK hasn´t got any workinglines to speak of.
> 
> So I guess this female may be good dog but not with a "good" pedigree according to many maybe, personally I don´t care what the pedigree says as long as the dog and the more immediate generations are "proven", but I guess many would look at the pedigree and be sceptical due to such "odd" lines and UK influence and such. Or what do the breeders say, would you not breed a female with a pedigree like this because it has the wrong "names"?
> 
> Pedigree of the female and a short clip on her sister that is a working policedog but also titled both in IPO and swedish program,
> http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=704556-winonas-cora
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fsd7VON---U


 
I wouldn't use a female like that, because of recessives. I am trying to build a foundation on specific dogs and follow that direction. After this foundation is built, I can look at outcrosses. 

But to answer your question, no I wouldn't breed to her, not because it has the wrong names, but because the wrong names could have the wrong genes. 


Regards


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## Erik Berg

Tiago Fontes said:


> But to answer your question, no I wouldn't breed to her, not because it has the wrong names, but because the wrong names could have the wrong genes.


Wrong genes you found in many GSDs with pedigrees that has only pure workinglines also, otherwise there wouldn´t be a problem with various healthproblems and mediocre workingability I suppose. For me it makes more sense to see what a certain breedingdog have produced than worry over if the pedigree has some showdog influence 4-5 generations back, especially in these days of big lazy pure workingdogs that starting to look like showdogs, or so called workingdogs that are more suited for sport only.


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## Haz Othman

I think if your doing some inbreeding to develop a line of dogs it sure does matter.


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## Tiago Fontes

Erik Berg said:


> Wrong genes you found in many GSDs with pedigrees that has only pure workinglines also, otherwise there wouldn´t be a problem with various healthproblems and mediocre workingability I suppose. For me it makes more sense to see what a certain breedingdog have produced than worry over if the pedigree has some showdog influence 4-5 generations back, especially in these days of big lazy pure workingdogs that starting to look like showdogs, or so called workingdogs that are more suited for sport only.


 
Well, different strokes for different blokes. 

I am trying to build a foundation, through linebreeding in two directions. If I didn't pay attention to pedigrees I would be insane. As mentioned, a wrong name could be a very stupid decision in what I am trying to do. 

This is not to imply that you should not look at the individual dogs and what they have produced...but I prefer to look at the production records of dogs that are genetically close to what I am looking to establish and see different combinations off of them. If show blood is present, I dismiss it. I could be wrong, though. 


Regards and thank you for your input.


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