# Sex



## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Hey! Now there's a topic...Had an e-mail from a person who wanted to know if the dogs sex had anything to do with how well it works. I have always been of te position that males were stronger as PSDs and both were good for PPDs, sport, and for herding both are great. 

What say ye group?


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

To me, males seem to more forward and intense and females are more graceful and fierce when called upon. 

Like that fat lady with a frying pan that hangs out at the end of Howard's driveway. What's up with that btw?


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Been discussed before. Folks that breed real dogs (Selena) commented there is no difference. I would agree that there shouldn't be but most prefer a male.
Nothing nastier then a bitch with attitude. 
Not a breeder but IMHO the bitch is as, if not more, important as the dog.


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

> Nothing nastier then a bitch with attitude.


And if you don't believe that, you need to come and watch Deja work.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Chris Michalek said:


> To me, males seem to more forward and intense and females are more graceful and fierce when called upon.
> 
> Like that fat lady with a frying pan that hangs out at the end of Howard's driveway. What's up with that btw?


Chris, Chris, Chris. When will you ever learn?! *She's the alarm system*. One look and NO BODY COMES AROUND! And the sign around her neck reads, "If I catch ya, it's sex for hours!" Always works...8) 
Like the Beware of Dog signs and the only thing there is an old, tired Lab!


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## Sara Findley (Feb 27, 2008)

I did notice at the schH nationals in the stands you would hear a lot of people's suprise when a nice bitch was on the feild. They would assume it was a male and when I corrected (i had my long lense on my camera  ) they would be suprised that it was a bitch and not a dog. 

I personally had never really thought about it. I always had males because I didnt want to have to deal with heats. I have a bitch now and the biggest difference I see is she bullies the boys lol.


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## Julie Blanding (Mar 12, 2008)

I think males are just easier to train for sports, they seem to forgive and get over things quicker versus bitches that will hold a grudge, plus you don't have to deal with the heat cycles.

However, I feel when bitches are working in aggression they are way nastier than the males. :grin: I like it!

Julie


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

There is a Biological differnece in the reaction to stress between a male and female. Now this varies on many degrees but over the whole spectrum of dogs, you can see this. 

We have watered this down with selective breeding. But Males have a more an instinct to stay and fight during stress....wander off alone, and go on the offensive with little or no thought. Females tend to be more reserved, seeking protection and saftey when a threat occurs and staying close to home.

This exists for procreation. a pack really only needs one male to keep moving. But needs a lots of females to thrive. Also, the females need to protect thier young, not going off to get an intruder. So, I think this is why it is so much harder to find a female that will work. Your fighting some biological tendicies. I have delt with females out of personal prefrence. The heat cycles never seem to bother me. having to males that will fight if they get the chance is a bigger pain in the ass to me than a bitch and dog who might mate.

Now some big level competetiors have disagreed with me on this. But again they did not have good females for sport. And they just passed it off that you can either breed a female or trial it. The both can not co-exist. I am going to through the Bullshit flag, and say maybe those females...were not all that great, and admitting that would not be good for buisness.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Chris Michalek said:


> Like that fat lady with a frying pan that hangs out at the end of Howard's driveway. What's up with that btw?


Cripes I just thought that was Howard with curlers in his hair! :-\" 

I dunno Howard I see most females being just as forward in work as the boys. Maybe a bit more frantic in bitework and possibly a bit softer under hard corrections or stress. But more biddable for handlers where a good male you have to work harder as a handler to earn the same trust. I really enjoy working with my female btw. Her bitework is really coming along as well her bird control she is a dog that doesn't quit. She is all I'd ever want in a dog don't matter if it is male or female as long as it works like this one I couldn't care less about the sex of the animal.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Julie, I agree.


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## Ashley Hiebing (Apr 6, 2008)

I have heard that, in regards to protection, males are more protective of their territory while females are more protective of their "family." Does this have any merit?


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## Dan Long (Jan 10, 2008)

Howard I remember a certain Mal named Belly at your club who was better than any male on the club roster, past or present. I never saw any lack of desire or ability on her part. There was only one decoy who was willing to work her, that tells me something.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Geoff Empey said:


> Cripes I just thought that was Howard with curlers in his hair! :-\"
> .


Geoff it could have been me, back in the day when big hair was in...and I mean in! :evil:  Thanks to public education and the acts of reinventing the wheel...one mo time...I can say clear shoe polish might be the ticket!!!


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Ashley Hiebing said:


> I have heard that, in regards to protection, males are more protective of their territory while females are more protective of their "family." Does this have any merit?


Ashley, I too have heard this and question some of it. I have seen females, caught them on the bite suit, and seen their "dark side...two legged as well.:-o 8-[ 

I think males in general are more protective, the only big difference is when the female has pups. Then hang on cause all hell's busting out! Very protective of the little ones.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

With proper selection, why would their be a difference. The behaviors being tested are still the same, regardless of the sex of the dog.

DFrost


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## David Scholes (Jul 12, 2008)

David Frost said:


> With proper selection, why would their be a difference. The behaviors being tested are still the same, regardless of the sex of the dog.
> 
> DFrost


My guess would be just the effects of the sex hormones estrogen & testosterone. Neutering also changes the animal. My opinion in both for animals and people that there is the potential for redirecting some of that sex energy into the work.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Howard Gaines III said:


> Geoff it could have been me, back in the day when big hair was in...and I mean in! :evil:  Thanks to public education and the acts of reinventing the wheel...one mo time...I can say clear shoe polish might be the ticket!!!



Try Mop 'N' Glo Howard. A little dab will do ya on the bean then a towel rubbed in a shoe shine motion works for me when I need to blind the neighbours.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

David Scholes said:


> My guess would be just the effects of the sex hormones estrogen & testosterone. Neutering also changes the animal.


Is this one of the reasons why anybody who knows and wants to work a dog. Doesn't alter a bitch or dog until 2 years+? I knew the loss of the sex hormones effects growth but didn't know that it 'could' effect working ability.


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

In USAR we see a difference between males and females in GSDs especially, although there are always exceptions. From what I've seen, female GSDs tend to become more handler dependent with age. That might be an OK trait (or maybe hardly noticeable) in sport or detection work where the handler works closely with the dog, but in USAR it is not a desirable trait.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

David Scholes said:


> My guess would be just the effects of the sex hormones estrogen & testosterone. Neutering also changes the animal. My opinion in both for animals and people that there is the potential for redirecting some of that sex energy into the work.


OMG! Are you kidding? Neutering removes part of the "man parts" and has nothing to do with the basic temperament of the animal. In very young males, dogs, early neutering can make them look a little more bitch like as the male traits have not developed. Redirecting energy? Yep, if someone tried to chop off my balls, it would make me work harder...

I'll remain teaching where it's SAFE!:razz:


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Konnie Hein said:


> In USAR we see a difference between males and females in GSDs especially, although there are always exceptions. From what I've seen, female GSDs tend to become more handler dependent with age. That might be an OK trait (or maybe hardly noticeable) in sport or detection work where the handler works closely with the dog, but in USAR it is not a desirable trait.


I was wondering about this very thing Konnie. Independent ranging. Not someting tested in sport really. Nor detection work as you say. Since I am likely looking for a female mal for my next SAR dog down the road it has been on my mind. It will be my first female dog ever. I do not really want to give up the chance of an independent worker, comfortable with me out of sight.

Wonder what Carol would say on the subject of range..having a female Mal for SAR.......

Seems to me that the cops that oversee our program would still have you choose a male if you asked them.

I also do think you would see more females in all types of higher level work if they were not taking time off to have pups if they are really breed worthy.......


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Hella Tasmanischen Teufel (Tasmanian Devil) 

I haven't seen her in training but her daughter was in our protection group. She had been allowed to do what she wanted in bitework for 3 years and ourGerman helper (breeder of our dogs) knocked her into shape without taking any substance from her. Her owner, a huge chap, a biker, crumpled at the criticism shot at him, but not his bitch. By the time she was "under control" she took her first trial in stride with a 98 protection. This bitch was a joy to watch - aggression, hardness, i.e. a "bloody bitch". Hella's breeder said she was her mother all over.

Here's Hella, the mother. apparently now in Korean hands, WUSV 2008:

http://www.k9key.com/vom_hermes_hella.htm

I don't think I would have bought a bitch until I joined mjy breeder's protection group and saw some of them in training - here you can better see what the dogs are worth than at a trial, for me that is.

Onya vom Fliesenstein won the Swiss GSD championship. However, I've only seen this bitch at trials and her owner is a very good handler. His father was part of the WUSV tream this year.

I like males full stop.


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## David Scholes (Jul 12, 2008)

Howard Gaines III said:


> OMG! Are you kidding? Neutering removes part of the "man parts" and has nothing to do with the basic temperament of the animal. In very young males, dogs, early neutering can make them look a little more bitch like as the male traits have not developed. Redirecting energy? Yep, if someone tried to chop off my balls, it would make me work harder...
> 
> I'll remain teaching where it's SAFE!:razz:


I'm not kidding. It may not be as pronounced in dogs but there is dramatic affect in some other species such as cattle and horses... and depending on the use, reasons to leave intact or neuter. Neutered males of most all species are much easier to handle but for that extra fire ... there are reasons the spanish conquistadors did not geld their war horses.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

As I have experienced, neutered males tend to remain the Peter Pans, sought out by intact males who can't really believe what they are sniffing.

Apart from medical reasons, cancer, etc. I can't honestly see any benefit from castrating them. How they work, I don't know, I've never experienced a neutered males in Schutzhund sport.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

David Scholes said:


> I'm not kidding. It may not be as pronounced in dogs but there is dramatic affect in some other species such as cattle and horses... and depending on the use, reasons to leave intact or neuter. Neutered males of most all species are much easier to handle but for that extra fire ... there are reasons the spanish conquistadors did not geld their war horses.


They probably didn't geld them because horses died so often in battle and they needed a steady stream of replacements. Puppies are faster to replace than foals. Or the fact they had no idea of "germ theory," and a field castration was likely to be a painful and potentially deadly prospect. :-k That being said, I'd still prefer a gelding.

And yes, neutered males still produce a small amount of testosterone in their adrenal cortex. They also depend on how much testosterone they are exposed to _in utero_. Perhaps that's why my male who got neutered at 4 months lifts his leg when he's in public? That was something he picked up at about 3 years of age. Anyways, it's probably not a bad idea to neuter a male once he's 8-10 years old for health reasons. As one of my professors said, as you age, your genitalia are not your friends. :wink:


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Maren,
Surely you mean if there are medical reasons and not just at 8-10 years? I had to have this done to an 11 year-old Landseer but never to the Briard or the Fila who were PTS at 13,5, 14,5 years.

As a precautionary measure, I wouldn't have had it done. I know a lot of vets talk about precautionary mesures but I'm still not into amputating the hind legs to prevent HD.

I hope i?ve misunderstood you #-o #-o #-o


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## David Scholes (Jul 12, 2008)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> They probably didn't geld them because horses died so often in battle and they needed a steady stream of replacements. Puppies are faster to replace than foals. Or the fact they had no idea of "germ theory," and a field castration was likely to be a painful and potentially deadly prospect. :-k That being said, I'd still prefer a gelding. ...


I've worked with two stallions. They would fight even a human if they felt threatened and never even think about getting between them and a mare in season. Had to fight my neighbors stud off with a pitch fork when he got in with my mares. They were both later gelded and it took a couple months but they mellowed to the disposition of puppy dogs. Bulls are similar. My neighbors do field castrations all the time with livestock. One claims he does his own horses... without sedation. I've done goats and calves and they are easy with the rubber bands.

I also have a friend who was a rancher in Peru (before agrarian reform) and they never gelded he said because it took the "macho" out of them.


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

Gillian Schuler said:


> Apart from medical reasons, cancer, etc. I can't honestly see any benefit from castrating them. How they work, I don't know, I've never experienced a neutered males in Schutzhund sport.


I'll be sure and share video of the neutered male that will be competing in our trial next weekend. Just so you cannot say you've never seen one anymore. :wink:


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Jennifer Coulter said:


> I was wondering about this very thing Konnie. Independent ranging. Not someting tested in sport really. Nor detection work as you say. Since I am likely looking for a female mal for my next SAR dog down the road it has been on my mind. It will be my first female dog ever. I do not really want to give up the chance of an independent worker, comfortable with me out of sight.
> 
> Wonder what Carol would say on the subject of range..having a female Mal for SAR.......
> 
> ...


Jennifer - I've seen the most issue with female GSDs, but like I said, there are exceptions. As far as Malinois go, we have one female Malinois on our FEMA team who at 6 or 7 years of age is an independent spitfire! Personally, since the government requires me to purchase my own dog at this point, I'm going to pick a breed and a gender that is most successful based on statistics. I prefer to stack the odds in my favor. 

Why are you choosing a female?


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Gillian Schuler said:


> Maren,
> Surely you mean if there are medical reasons and not just at 8-10 years? I had to have this done to an 11 year-old Landseer but never to the Briard or the Fila who were PTS at 13,5, 14,5 years.
> 
> As a precautionary measure, I wouldn't have had it done. I know a lot of vets talk about precautionary mesures but I'm still not into amputating the hind legs to prevent HD.
> ...


I'm not even talking the testicular cancers or perianal fistulas, moreso on benign prostatic hyperplasia. Human men and male dogs are some of the very few species that almost always get this as they age. That's why they use dogs as a model for it in medical research (though we were able to develop a mouse model). Something like half of the men over age 60 get it and almost all by 80-90 years. 

It's thought to be a function of having falling testosterone levels and rising estrogen levels as they age. Benign prostatic hyperplasia needs both estrogen and testosterone to get it going, so by neutering them at around 8-10 years old, you'll mitigate a lot of that. When I was in grad school, we had to add testerone hormone capsules along with the estrogen capsules to induce hyperplasia and prostatic intraepithelial neoplasia (PIN) lesions of the prostate in mice.

Here's a section in the Merck Manual on the subject:



> Benign prostatic hyperplasia is the most common prostatic disorder and is found in most intact male dogs >6 yr old. It is a result of androgenic stimulation or altered androgen/estrogen ratio, but why some males are affected and others are not is unknown. In some dogs, hyperplasia may begin as early as 2.5 yr of age and, after 4 yr of age, cystic hyperplasia tends to develop. There may be no clinical signs, or tenesmus, persistent or intermittent hematuria, and bleeding may occur. The diagnosis is suggested by physical and historical findings and by a nonpainful, symmetrically enlarged prostate. Radiology can confirm prostatomegaly. Ultrasonography should show diffuse, relatively symmetric involvement with multiple, diffuse, cystic structures. Cytologic examination of massage or ejaculate specimens reveals hemorrhage with mild inflammation without evidence of sepsis or neoplasia. Definitive diagnosis is only possible by biopsy. Castration is the treatment of choice; prostatic involution is usually evident within a few weeks and is often complete in several months.


http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/index.jsp?cfile=htm/bc/112402.htm

So this isn't a "well, _maybe_ they'll get it" kind of scenario. It's a yeah, pretty much they will get it scenario. Keep in mind that evolutionarily speaking, both in dogs and humans, cancer or conditions like BPH are most often a function of the fact that we are living much, much longer than we did even a century ago. Your reproductive organs are just great when you're young and need to reproduce. When you're older, they don't help. Heck, both my uncle and my great uncle both have prostate cancer right now. 



> I've worked with two stallions. They would fight even a human if they felt threatened and never even think about getting between them and a mare in season. Had to fight my neighbors stud off with a pitch fork when he got in with my mares. They were both later gelded and it took a couple months but they mellowed to the disposition of puppy dogs. Bulls are similar. My neighbors do field castrations all the time with livestock. One claims he does his own horses... without sedation. I've done goats and calves and they are easy with the rubber bands.


David, going into mixed animal practice, yes, I do know stallions and bulls can be a real PITA, especially when people allow them to be cause they like their "spirit." Often their "spirit" is really probably just bad manners and/or training, just like some like the feistiness of a Chihuahua snapping or snarling at people, even though it likely has poor training. :wink: Although I've had quite a few horse friends of mine said that if a gelding got into a fight with a stallion, they'd probably bet on the gelding because stallions tend to bit and strike and geldings just try to kick the snot out of them. 

In regards to doing field castrations in the field without anesthesia in a non-sterile environment, we think it barbaric for someone to crop their dog's ears with a pair of kitchen shears, but horses, cattle, and pigs, it's alright geld, dehorn, or remove needle teeth without anesthesia. I disagree. Like many things in life, just because you can, doesn't mean you should...


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

:lol:


Konnie Hein said:


> Jennifer - I've seen the most issue with female GSDs, but like I said, there are exceptions. As far as Malinois go, we have one female Malinois on our FEMA team who at 6 or 7 years of age is an independent spitfire! Personally, since the government requires me to purchase my own dog at this point, I'm going to pick a breed and a gender that is most successful based on statistics. I prefer to stack the odds in my favor.
> 
> Why are you choosing a female?


I have not chosen yet, but it would be ideal....

We do have a certified female Mal and a couple of female GSD (as well as other females of various breeds). I don't work with them (the Mals or GSD) enough (they are in a different part of the province) to know the intricacies of their working styles and how they might differ from males of the same breeds.

I was thinking female because, as an end user in my profile, size is important to me. How much room a dog takes up on a snowmobile, in a helicopter, if I can lift and carry it easily, ski with it on my back/in my arms are all HUGE assests. I would like to stay under 55 lbs personally.
I REALLY enjoy my current dog's size, agility and portability. Remember I am pretty small myself (110lbs, 5'3")

Smaller dogs tend to last longer and have less injuries in this profile too according to many in the industry.

I anticipate my current dog accepting a female a little better. He is a prick and NOT looking forward to the day I get a puppy either way though! 

In the end I would not accept a dog I thought was an inferior product on the basis of sex. Worse case scenario I end up with a male and I seperate my two dogs most of the time and I end up with a dog I can ride down the mountain 

I understand that most Mal end users want a larger dog (seems they might be getting bigger or is it just me?) I am certainly not who Mal breeders are breeding for and I understand that. 

As afraid as I am to limit myself by sex, I am even more afraid to limit myself by size. For example would I only look at litters with small parents? Seems silly to do that. If I could get everything I want in a small female Mal package I would be stoked! Or even just a small package, male or female.... I am still educating myself on what the realistic odds of such a find might be#-o


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Jennifer - both the female Malinois on my FEMA team are tiny! The older one is much more independent than the younger one. The younger one is still a great working dog in her own right. 

I have no doubt that you'll be able to find exactly what you're looking for.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

http://cebp.aacrjournals.org/cgi/content/full/11/11/1434

In adition a dog that is neutered very young will look like a coyote as an adult. Long legged and scrawny.

I can't find it as of now but there is a another article that comments about bitches getting crabby as they get older if they've been spayed.

If either is necessary, do it after 24 months.


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

See my avatar photo. Very long legged dog (26 1/2 inches tall) 

Neutered at 7 months. In my defense, he was intended as a pet dog in an urban setting. Too much dog for a pet, not quite enough for sport.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

Sara Findley said:


> I personally had never really thought about it. I always had males because I didnt want to have to deal with heats.


I always found this argument to be very weak. I know you've always had males but it is not the horrid thing everyone makes it out to be. 3 weeks every 7-8 months is nothing. If the bitch can do the work why not? I believe in equality between the doggy sexes as well as the human.


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## Amber Scott Dyer (Oct 30, 2006)

i never really thought about it as being sex related, but the comment about the females staying too close for ideal SAR work makes me think. 

I've always done lots of hiking with my dogs and with my grandparents and their dogs as a kid. the males always tended to be the ones that roam farther and explore. we always had to watch to make sure they were staying in sight. the females would always stay pretty close to the group. 

i get the same thing now when hiking with my two. my boy keeps just far enough ahead that he can see us if he turns around, the girl stays by us and doesn't go very far. she kinda makes little circles around us as if there was an invisible perimeter she doesn't want to cross.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I've seen some spectacular bitches in SAR work. I think that's more about correct drives then gender.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Bob Scott said:


> ... I think that's more about correct drives then gender.


Bob the Great...busted on this one! *Sex drives gender*, think not?! Then why are there so many aspirin products out there for *WOMEN *to take? Never heard it said, "Oh honey, I'm ready..." His reply, "Go fetch the Bayer."  8-[ And Humble Howard fixes another one, just not very correctly! :razz: 

And for the Southern Swamp crowd, and ya know who you is, go put yer Christmas lights up! :-# :-$


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> I've seen some spectacular bitches in SAR work. I think that's more about correct drives then gender.


Maybe in wilderness SAR, but not in disaster. I've only ever seen 2 female GSDs in disaster SAR that I thought were capable of really finding somebody. Very few female GSDs have been certified in the FEMA program. And, from what I've seen, it has a lot to do with lack of independence. For the most part, I've seen some really nice female GSDs who start out strong in the training, only to lose the independence necessary for the work as they mature (3-4 years of age). Compare that to females of other breeds such as Labradors, who share the same certification stats as their male counterparts. JME.

There are 2 FEMA USAR members on this discussion forum who have a lot more experience with female GSDs than me. Maybe they'll weigh in with their experiences. Could be they've seen something different.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Howard Gaines III said:


> Bob the Great...busted on this one! *Sex drives gender*, think not?! Then why are there so many aspirin products out there for *WOMEN *to take? Never heard it said, "Oh honey, I'm ready..." His reply, "Go fetch the Bayer."  8-[ And Humble Howard fixes another one, just not very correctly! :razz:
> 
> And for the Southern Swamp crowd, and ya know who you is, go put yer Christmas lights up! :-# :-$


 
Howard, have you ever wondered why your still single? :lol: :lol: :wink:


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Konnie, Very interesting! 
I've not seen it but there may be a reason I've owned very few females. :wink:


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Konnie Hein said:


> Maybe in wilderness SAR, but not in disaster. I've only ever seen 2 female GSDs in disaster SAR that I thought were capable of really finding somebody. Very few female GSDs have been certified in the FEMA program. And, from what I've seen, it has a lot to do with lack of independence. For the most part, I've seen some really nice female GSDs who start out strong in the training, only to lose the independence necessary for the work as they mature (3-4 years of age). Compare that to females of other breeds such as Labradors, who share the same certification stats as their male counterparts. JME.


Didn't you just basically say it's not about the gender but about having the correct drives? If female Labs can certify at the same rate as male Labs, that would tell me it's not the gender but the drives the dog possess. And maybe in the GSD's there is a problem with the drives, and that's why the females aren't certifying at the same rate as the males, a lack of neccessary drives in the dogs the handlers are utilizing.


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## Jacqueline Guptill (Nov 4, 2008)

Jennifer;

You should ask Rose Deluca. I believe Faza is 6 years old now and just passed her re-cert in October. You probably hid for her in Bolton.


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## Jacqueline Guptill (Nov 4, 2008)

Jennifer;

Forgot. Rose's last certified dog was also a female GSD. That's the dog she had with her at 9/11.


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

I was hoping Rosa and maybe Carol would weigh in eventually. Rosa to see what she has seen out of GSD in FEMA and Carol to see what she thinks of the female Mals in SAR as she has one.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

I'll have to find the email for the technical information, but one of my friends in Canada recently certified with her female Malinois for wilderness SAR. Course that's only 1 dog in the grand scheme of examples LOL


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> Didn't you just basically say it's not about the gender but about having the correct drives?


I think Bob said that.



> If female Labs can certify at the same rate as male Labs, that would tell me it's not the gender but the drives the dog possess. And maybe in the GSD's there is a problem with the drives, and that's why the females aren't certifying at the same rate as the males, a lack of neccessary drives in the dogs the handlers are utilizing.


What I'm saying is that in my experience, female GSDs don't seem to make the cut very often. We don't seem to see that same problem in Labradors. I have no idea why.


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Jacqueline Guptill said:


> Jennifer;
> 
> You should ask Rose Deluca. I believe Faza is 6 years old now and just passed her re-cert in October. You probably hid for her in Bolton.


That's one of the people I was referring to when I mentioned the FEMA handlers on this board. Melody has lots of experience with GSDs as well.


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> I'll have to find the email for the technical information, but one of my friends in Canada recently certified with her female Malinois for wilderness SAR. Course that's only 1 dog in the grand scheme of examples LOL


Add to that the 2 female Mals I mentioned on my FEMA team and I think Jennifer would be OK to choose a female Malinois.

Like I said above - I prefer to base my selection of a dog initially on statistics. The federal and state government do not pay for my dog, I do. So, to get the biggest bang for my buck, I'll start my selection by looking at the stats. Then I'll look at the individual dog. That's why you'll never see me training a female GSD for disaster search. This is also the reason you won't see me attempting to train a springer spaniel or a pointer for the job. These days I won't even start a puppy. Sure, individuals have had success with these dogs, but those are exceptions and not the rule. When looking at the FEMA certification stats throughout the years, the percentage of these particular dogs started vs. certified aren't great. I recommend this same approach to my team. It's their money, so they can choose to follow my advice or not. Maybe other handlers have a lot more money to make mistakes with, but I sure don't!


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