# That stake out test



## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Another one I’ll never win but anyway….
One test I read about on here and have seen a few time is that stake out. Some believe that this test tells them everything they need to know about a dog in. In my opinion this is a retarted test. Think about it for a bit. You take a young very green dog with very little or no bite experience and tie it in a field its never been in before and let it sit there for a bit. Then someone the dog never seen before is supposed to move suspiciously towards the dog. And what is to be considered a good dog is supposed to be at the end of its line barking aggressively. If the dog backs down for a second its not good if it tries to run its no good etc. 
I personally would prefer the dog sit there and look at the guy thinking “what is this jerk off doing”. If the dog tries to get away that might even be ok with me. A sound dog should not feel like it needs to bite someone who is walking or acting funny. Im Ok with a dog that would rather walk away from this jerk off fest than feel like it should bite. 
This is a sound confident dog to me not the one barking at the end of the lead, JMO. 
A while back there was a thread about what makes a good SWAT dog. A lot of the answers that were being given made since to me. If I remember correctly it was not a spun up crack head. 

There is a guy in my town who knew nothing about dogs but went and imported himself a dog from the other side of the pond. It comes from a long line if SCH dogs. I don’t know why this guy did this but that’s not the point. This guy knows nothing about dogs never did “drive building games” with the dog but the dog is a spun up nut. As you can imagine he is having problems with it. Word got out and its been looked at by a few dog people in town. A cop did the famous stake out test and the dog “past” with flying colors. I would imagine it would past most tests to be a LE dog of could go someplace in the sport world. I think this dog is typical of what many on here would want. I spent some time with it and really don’t understand why. Who would want to own a dog that runs after and bites everything that moves in the yard? How has breeding this come to be considered good?


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Well Chris I am with you on the test being retarded. For some of the reasons you stated...your right it could mis leading. If the dog was very young, I also would not be critical if it did not show killer instinct. 

And just more over If you cannot take a young dog, and throw a ball for it, take a walk with it in some new places, and take a few grips from him and assess what you got. I doubt staking the dog to the ground, alone with some strange dude walking up is going to tell anything more.


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

James Downey said:


> Well Chris I am with you on the test being retarded. For some of the reasons you stated...your right it could mis leading. If the dog was very young, I also would not be critical if it did not show killer instinct.
> 
> And just more over If you cannot take a young dog, and throw a ball for it, take a walk with it in some new places, and take a few grips from him and assess what you got. I doubt staking the dog to the ground, alone with some strange dude walking up is going to tell anything more.


Not trying to bust, but what does throwing a ball for it tell you personally?


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Explain Spun up Nut...or crack head dog? Now on the stake out test.... The behavior of the dog, I guess I could interpet but my problem with it, is my dog is never going to be tied up, alone, with weirdos walking by. So, it has no relevance...also, the behavior of a young green dog, may differ from when he is older....I just see to many holes in the test. 

But I guess where I lose you at, is this is the second post where you have stated a dog leaving the area would be a desired response from you. I am not sure I want that extreme either. I mean, right now the young male I have is what I consider perfect temperment for me. He's social, he will say hello to you like he wants to be your bud. Slap him on the ass or hit him with a stick, you will be wearing him...and that's at 11 months old. I do not see that as faulty. I see that as a dog that is social, but will handle his buisness directly in no uncertain terms. He also is a bundle of drive. He's quite a lot. But I think that I have done a good job in not allowing him to just be a spun up crack head. I think those dogs with hectic drive more often than not were trained like shit and this is how they deal with it. In fact I think my female had some hecticness to her, which I used to blame on her. Now looking back, I can see where I made her zaney at times. So, I do not even hold that against dogs. 

And Chris, the beautiful thing about breeding is: you also can do it, and breed for what you like.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Chris McDonald said:


> Not trying to bust, but what does throwing a ball for it tell you personally?


 
It tells me what the dog does in response to me throwing a tennis ball....I mean it's really that simple. I basically want a dog with some ball drive. Because I use balls in my training. I can use throwing the ball for other things. Like throwing the ball under a car...will he go get it. Or throw the ball in the woods...will he find it? What I am looking for is the basic drives, and nerve base. If he has good drive and nevers....I can teach him everything else.


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

James, just some of my opinions, not saying I know what I am talking about. As far as crack head I guess we all have our own definition or line of when drive turns into crack head. Mine is lower than most, some never think a dog can be spun up enough. Just what you want, ill just never understand why some want what they want.


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

You see chris...you make these statements but you dont tell us how you pick or train a dog.. how do you train the dog to climb the ladders, or bite and release and then target another arm. How do you pick an acceptable candidate to your way of training. You read everyday how we do it...now share your methods. Share ...maybe I can use some of your knowledge.


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Ha, I hear you Will. I would love to but I really enjoy what I am slowly learning. What I am being taught is the way some people earn their living. They would rather not have their methods all over the internet and I respect that. I can understand why so many cry bull shi* if someone else doesn’t want to share their methods. But my hands are kind of tied. Just thought it couldn’t hurt to give a different view I have on the stake out test. I guess I could have used a different word than jerk off but it fit so well. Was not meant to be personal. Im already considered the chatty bitch just because I am on here. Although im pretty sure there are a few others on here I am the only one stupid enough to use my real name. I only video a few of the basics, there is a whole bunch of things we do I won’t video tape… you know top secret cult stuff. That video of my dog climbing ladders was after my first or second weekend class, but I did get the dog with some training already in it. really looking forward to getting another dog this spring with a lot less training in it. 

And brining up names how many of you think that someone you know is on here using another name? I think a lot of LE use fake names, cant blame them. I think I got a few figured out. If I had to start all over id pick another name. I wonder who id be?


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

Did not take it person.l...Just curious to see how someone else does it...in another way.

All the LE that I know on this board use their real names....

There use to be two guys from your cult that trained dogs down here on our fire dept. they left some time ago...I would have like to watch them train


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Ah but what about the ones you don’t know are on this board but are on this board but you don’t know because they don’t use their real names? hmmm, now your gona start wondering about everybody. I mean who is really named “will” with no capitol w. makes you wonder who you are don’t it


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Chris McDonald said:


> James, just some of my opinions, not saying I know what I am talking about. As far as crack head I guess we all have our own definition or line of when drive turns into crack head. Mine is lower than most, some never think a dog can be spun up enough. Just what you want, ill just never understand why some want what they want.


 
I am with you on that. I know that some may disagree with me. But I think you need a drive, and maybe even a lot. But you only need so much. After a point it starts to become a problem.


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

I will only start to wonder if you tell me your real name is Cathy A.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Chris,

Does not believe people are using thier real names, keeping his training top secret.... Next thing he will be telling us is that the Mods are paired with the FBI and have bugged all our keyboards to monitor key strokes. LOL


Seriously Chris, Don't be a one way guy. Why do ask what I look for when throwing a ball for a dog?


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

will fernandez said:


> You see chris...you make these statements but you dont tell us how you pick or train a dog.. how do you train the dog to climb the ladders, or bite and release and then target another arm. How do you pick an acceptable candidate to your way of training. You read everyday how we do it...now share your methods. Share ...maybe I can use some of your knowledge.


Don't do it Chris, I did and you can see what logic get you here. LMAO.


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## Ariel Peldunas (Oct 18, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Don't do it Chris, I did and you can see what logic get you here. LMAO.


Don, 

You don't have training methods or logic as it applies to training protection dogs. That's why it got you where it did.


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

Don your a funny guy...just admit you drank the Kool aid...You are a sport dog breeder now whether you admit it or not....Soon you will be called Von High Country airedales


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I think the stake out test is a mixed bag. It can possibly tell you about a green dog but with a dog that has training that training may hide a lot. 
I'll toss a ball for every puppy or dog I look at. A natural retrieve, or as close as you can get, tells me the dog is willing to work with a man. A Dog with a natural retrieve is going to be so much easier to train because you have something it wants. Combine that natural retrieve with good tug work and you now have positive, willing interaction between dog and trainer!


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

For a stake out test, I think a dog that is confident but not showing aggression is not frowned upon...what people dont want is avoidance behaviors...

if the dog doesnt react at all, then he still could be a dead head...which would need to be explored further.


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

chris are you referring specifically to koehler's method of testing green dogs? if so, i don't believe he wants a dog to be a "spun up crack head" in the test. if i remember correctly (used to own the book but no longer do, so i can't quote here), he simply wants a dog who doesn't go into avoidance, preferably go forward, but at the least stands his ground when approached by a sneaker.

anyone who has a copy, a quote would be good here. 

chris, if that's not the test you're alluding to, i have no opinion at all.


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

So to the people who think the stake out test has little or no value, if a dog drops his anal glands, goes into avoidence and tries to run away when tested is this dog any good to you?


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Tests, such as the stake out test, are very subjective. I may see something I like/dislike, that another trainer disagrees with. The results will obviously be different for a dog that is truly green opposed to what is presented as green today. As for what does throwing a ball tell me. Absolutely nothing. However, the reaction of the dog to that thrown object can tell me a lot.

DFrost


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Christopher Jones said:


> So to the people who think the stake out test has little or no value, if a dog drops his anal glands, goes into avoidence and tries to run away when tested is this dog any good to you?


 
Asking questions you know the answers too? if that's the dog reaction, You knew what you were going to see long before you go to the pole.

most tests like this are irrelevant. If you want to see if a dog is good for the work you want to use him for, just work him in the manner he's going to be worked. Or as close to that as you can. What's so hard about that? 

I guess the pole test has some value for those people who need to test a bunch of dogs in one afternoon...That's really the only use I see.

for me, like I said, If you do not understand what you see in a dog that you throw a ball for, give a few bites to, and take him for a walk. You probably not going to understand what you see on the pole...unless the dog completely shits himself...but, I take that back, you proabably would have saw some trepidation in the walk, or bite work...maybe if that's bad, even playing ball.


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

James Downey said:


> Asking questions you know the answers too? if that's the dog reaction, You knew what you were going to see long before you go to the pole.
> 
> most tests like this are irrelevant. If you want to see if a dog is good for the work you want to use him for, just work him in the manner he's going to be worked. Or as close to that as you can. What's so hard about that?
> 
> ...


 Not quite so. The stake out test was done here at a seminar, and it was done to alot of dogs. One was a multi IPO3, SchH 3 Haus Larwin dog who was extremely confident, lots of drive, social. He was the exactly what high level competitors look for in a dog. Infact the guy who tested him for sale describes him as "Bomb proof". He was only put on the stake by his owners because they were so confident of what the dog was and how he would handle ANY test. He shit himself and tries to run.
Other dogs including security dogs with multiple live bites and tons of bitework training also shit themselfs.
Having said that, I also believe it is possible to train good reactions to the test.


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## herman williams (Nov 23, 2011)

stake out test and many others are very trainable , todays green dogs are not green at all , but heavily trained young dogs , I would gues 4 till 6 months every day training before they are offerd

most people wouldnot recognize qualities and bodylanguage in a real green dog anyhow:-o


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Christopher Jones said:


> Not quite so. The stake out test was done here at a seminar, and it was done to alot of dogs. One was a multi IPO3, SchH 3 Haus Larwin dog who was extremely confident, lots of drive, social. He was the exactly what high level competitors look for in a dog. Infact the guy who tested him for sale describes him as "Bomb proof". He was only put on the stake by his owners because they were so confident of what the dog was and how he would handle ANY test. He shit himself and tries to run.
> Other dogs including security dogs with multiple live bites and tons of bitework training also shit themselfs.
> Having said that, I also believe it is possible to train good reactions to the test.


 
I find that extreme of a reaction to a dog known to have super nerves kind of hard to believe. Not that it couldn't happen, because your saying it did. Now, A live bite is very loose term, That could mean a ripped sweat shirt. and Security dog...Well, There is a bit variance in what people consider a security dog. Anyway... I get what your insinuating is that these were not just anomolies and that test is quite good at tapping into the nerve of the dog. I would just think a dog that has been trained in IPO would have been staked to something at some point in his life. I mean I have done it like a half dozen times to my female. And now if you tie her up, that becomes a stimulus that some shit's going to go down. 
And Chris, the worst judge of a dog's charcter is thier owner. 

And Now, I have backtied my fair share of dogs, and worked them in defense..Not saying this is the same, but it's similar. And I should have seen reaction that may not be that extreme but In any case I should see at least a very mild version of it. .Not one blew thier anal glands or even came close....maybe I am not that scary. But I think the fact is probably more along the line if this truley did happen, it was an anomoly. There's just no way that leaving a dog a backtied with some weirdo coming out some how takes not only a godd dog, but an exceptional and exposes these gigantic glaring flaws in the dog...that everybody just somehow failed to catch along the way. Or simply someone was quite mistaken about how good thier dog is. I have seen people in IPO go in front super santa clause judges...they praise the dickens out of the dog, and wonder why they leave a real competetion, barley passing...So it could be possible that super dog, was not so super dog. And I dismiss security dogs, simply based on no standard to go by. I have a rescue mutt....he's a security dog. becasue I leash him, and wear a shirt that says security.


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

I would think you can train good reaction to this test. So are you saying any dog that shits itself is no good?


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## herman williams (Nov 23, 2011)

or not trained good enough


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## sefi sahar (Dec 15, 2011)

chris that stake out test you talk about is just another simple test build to check the ediger rules ranged of circles (you know the circles of aphaty, avoidnece and critical) and also a view of how a dog handle real defence and how easy can get in diffence.

i dont use this test but i know very proffesional trainers that use it and i dont consider them dumb.
it just one test small part among others.

to use only this test alone to decide wheter you take the dog or not is DUMB. but idont recall i have seen any proffesionasl do it.


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## sefi sahar (Dec 15, 2011)

and i aswell whould not disqualify adog just for standing there doing nothing or being freindly.


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

herman williams said:


> stake out test and many others are very trainable , todays green dogs are not green at all , but heavily trained young dogs , I would gues 4 till 6 months every day training before they are offerd
> 
> most people wouldnot recognize qualities and bodylanguage in a real green dog anyhow:-o


Herman not to be a stick in the mud but that's kind of a blanket statement there buddy lol. Your post infers that all green dogs offered now are heavily trained and conditioned. Not being argumentative but that simply isn't true. You get a dog from a lot of these guys and they tell you he is green .. he has been for the most part in a kennel with his primary needs met and that's about it. Some of the top breeders present on this board adhere to this. I'm not going to throw out any names but I know this for a fact as do others. 

Why would most people not know the body language of a green dog? Do you mean folks who train dogs or joe public?


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## Erik Berg (Apr 11, 2006)

In a test you ask the dog some questions to get some answears, what do you do if something frightens you, how much aggresion or preydrive do you have and so on. If someone uses only a stake out test and the dog just sits there, then it tells you nothing about the dog I suppose, because the dog doesn´t show you anything. 

Here is a test for policedogs in holland, don´t know if this is a standard test or just something these guys uses,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mTLYs5cvrls&feature=related

A test for police/security-dogs at the policedog school in sweden, you can skip the parts between 13.41-17.55 because not much happens there
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3T6hrq8I6Yc


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## herman williams (Nov 23, 2011)

brian , sometimes dogs are trained up to 4 months to meet up with K9 center test , before offered to K9 center , there dog will be trained further to meet specific customers needs for certain period and then offered to clients , would you call this a green dog ?


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

TEST, TEST, TEST...
Now, tell me HOW you plan to successfully teach this, what the applications will be for the real world! =;


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

I have tried twice to add to this thread but both times I was logged out...A shame. Because they were long ones. That's got to be the worst feeling I felt all day.


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## Ariel Peldunas (Oct 18, 2008)

James Downey said:


> I have tried twice to add to this thread but both times I was logged out...A shame. Because they were long ones. That's got to be the worst feeling I felt all day.


I've learned to religiously copy what I've written before I submit my reply. That's happened to me a few times and it always makes me want to punch something.


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## herman williams (Nov 23, 2011)

howard it isnot that hard , take the test , break it in pieces , and condition the dog on the various pieces , reward and built confidence , and thereafter put pieces together

offcoarse it is not so that every courage lacking dog can be conditioned , but many can


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Ariel Peldunas said:


> I've learned to religiously copy what I've written before I submit my reply. That's happened to me a few times and it always makes me want to punch something.


and oh...how I want to punch something.


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

herman williams said:


> brian , sometimes dogs are trained up to 4 months to meet up with K9 center test , before offered to K9 center , there dog will be trained further to meet specific customers needs for certain period and then offered to clients , would you call this a green dog ?


no sir a green dog to me has had minimal experience with any kind of training.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Ariel Peldunas said:


> I've learned to religiously copy what I've written before I submit my reply. That's happened to me a few times and it always makes me want to punch something.


ha ha, that made me laugh. For some reason it brought this video to mind:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M8pR1rZZHEs&feature=fvst


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

James Downey said:


> I have tried twice to add to this thread but both times I was logged out...A shame. Because they were long ones. That's got to be the worst feeling I felt all day.


What I do:

When you do a long post, make it a habit to open another window in the same browser and log yourself back in first.

THEN post in that first window.

Copying it somewhere works, too, but logging yourself back in in a second window (or, if you are still logged in, doing anything in the second browser window to make you stay active until you can go back and post) is a lot easier.


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

James Downey said:


> I have tried twice to add to this thread but both times I was logged out...A shame. Because they were long ones. That's got to be the worst feeling I felt all day.


Dude, that just happened to me on here an hour ago! I sooo hate that. Good thing for Don though, my second attempt was much shorter and nicer than my first one that got erased when i was logged out.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

If I have a post to submit that may get rejected due to inactivity, I will copy it over to a new email before submitting the original just to be sure.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

what browser are you guys using, and is the computer shutting down, browser shutting down, or just logging you out of WDF?


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

I am just getting log out of the forum...first time it's ever happened to me.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Basically, My post was about the anal glands releasing in response to the stake test. In my limited knowledge the stake out test is a proximity threshhold test. Basically how close does threat/stimulus get before the dog shows any reaction...and what reaction. In my mind the threat/stimulus is beyond the threshhold at first...that means far away, or far enough away to not cause stress. So when the threat/stimulus moves closer, there has to be many levels of stress induced prior to the anal glands releasing, especially in a dog otherwise known as solid. So basically what kind of asshole doesn't stop before that happens? 

And as for dismissing a dog that shit itself...yes I would, even if he engaged. First there are plenty of dogs that do not shit themselves and still engage. And second that's what a wolf would most likely do, piss himself while fighting, Kind of what we are breeding away from.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

When you log in hit the "remember me" box. That can keep you on during a long post.


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

James Downey said:


> And as for dismissing a dog that shit itself...yes I would, even if he engaged. First there are plenty of dogs that do not shit themselves and still engage. And second that's what a wolf would most likely do, piss himself while fighting, Kind of what we are breeding away from.


 
Sometimes the dog just has to go! It is a response to fight or flight. I just wouldn’t want the dog because I would have to clean up after it. 
What about dogs that shit when asked to do a search… is that cause they are just so happy they can shit? Hey maybe the dog is just so happy to be biting.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Chris McDonald said:


> Sometimes the dog just has to go! It is a response to fight or flight. I just wouldn’t want the dog because I would have to clean up after it.
> What about dogs that shit when asked to do a search… is that cause they are just so happy they can shit? Hey maybe the dog is just so happy to be biting.


 
I think you have the phrase a little messed up. I have never heard of a response to fight or flight. Fight or flight is the response. 

Besides like I said, there are plenty of dogs without that little added behavior to choose from. 

And a dog that shits when asked to do a search...That's more of a problem I think with handler not scheduling bathroom breaks well enough. 

Humorous though LOL.


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

James Downey said:


> I think you have the phrase a little messed up. I have never heard of a response to fight or flight. Fight or flight is the response.
> 
> http://hardanxiety.blogspot.com/fight_or_flight.html
> Look at the picture with regarding the bladder and colon. Cleaning yourself out before getting a beat down can reduce the chance of organs bursting inside of you.
> When I was young a few friends hit a tree in a car after a few to many. I don’t remember exactly what ruptured or tore but a few things inside did. I was told it’s more common for things to burst in drunks because there full of beer. Kinda makes sense?


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Lots of responses to fight or flight, way out of my league but ya needing to change your underwear is one. You might want to track down a vet form nam or something if you really want to learn more. My understanding is that it does not in any way determine how the person is going to react regarding the problem at hand. But it just helps get them ready to face the problem. Its just something that never really makes the movies. Just wouldn’t be good in saving private Ryan. 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parasympathetic_nervous_system


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

James Downey said:


> Basically, My post was about the anal glands releasing in response to the stake test. In my limited knowledge the stake out test is a proximity threshhold test. Basically how close does threat/stimulus get before the dog shows any reaction...and what reaction. In my mind the threat/stimulus is beyond the threshhold at first...that means far away, or far enough away to not cause stress. So when the threat/stimulus moves closer, there has to be many levels of stress induced prior to the anal glands releasing, especially in a dog otherwise known as solid. So basically what kind of asshole doesn't stop before that happens?
> 
> And as for dismissing a dog that shit itself...yes I would, even if he engaged. First there are plenty of dogs that do not shit themselves and still engage. And second that's what a wolf would most likely do, piss himself while fighting, Kind of what we are breeding away from.


you dont always have time to back off...things can go bad..
especially when you have a cocky fool that picks fights for his dog...

look what happened with Don..


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Ah leave Don be. Got to respect ********


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

James Downey said:


> I think you have the phrase a little messed up. I have never heard of a response to fight or flight. Fight or flight is the response.
> 
> Besides like I said, there are plenty of dogs without that little added behavior to choose from.
> 
> ...


 
The more I read this the more I think you really have no idea and are blinded by sport?


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

Brian Anderson said:


> no sir a green dog to me has had minimal experience with any kind of training.


Do you actually believe that a green dog for sale at any big broker in the states has not been conditioned to being staked out and stalked, had some work on searching behavior or retrieving metal?


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

will fernandez said:


> Do you actually believe that a green dog for sale at any big broker in the states has not been conditioned to being staked out and stalked, had some work on searching behavior or retrieving metal?




Even if a "green" dog had the potential I doubt any broker is going to chance it. No money in hoping! :lol:


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Chris McDonald said:


> Ah leave Don be. Got to respect ********


 
Hey Don,

At Least Aeria'ls Knight in Shining Armor was of the opposite sex.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Chris McDonald said:


> The more I read this the more I think you really have no idea and are blinded by sport?


 
That Ace had to come out of your sleeve sooner or later. Originality=fail. 

If I am not mistaken that sounds like a dig? Maybe I do not have an idea. Maybe I am so outside the ballpark it's outrageous. Sounds like my problem doesn't it? Not sure I am blinded by sport. I do not particpate in anyother type of work. It's really my only frame of reference. 

But seriously, The actual coined term is "fight or flight response". I do not think we have to consult the holy Google to know that. but if you want, And response to flight or fight....Just don't make sense. 

And if your talking about the deficating do to excitement of a search. I have seen some very excited dogs....You know the crack heads one you love, the seem to not share this incontinece problem. I promise you if there is feces in a dog bowels, it's because he has not relieved himself in awhile...not because a search is coming up.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> you dont always have time to back off...things can go bad..
> especially when you have a cocky fool that picks fights for his dog...
> 
> look what happened with Don..


 
Chris, I guess anything is possible. But not probable. And I do not the way the test was employed on the dog. but I think the reaction dons dog had was pretty extreme. I guess it proves your point that it can happen. You know, Chris, as I type I really no very little about the test that admistered on the dog you were refering too. It just did not add up to me, but like I said I am going off the limited information I have, And I have to fill in a lot of blanks with my experience. Which not may not be what happened. So I really can't comment any further.

As in the test itself, And I am speak for my dogs only is that I am not into seeing if they can handle something I would much rather take my time and through desenstization and positive assocaiton grow them to be able handle things. Now, I do not believe you can install balls on a dog, all you can do you manage the enviorment to allow these things to reach there potential. Tests run a risk of stiffling these things. If there is a flaw in my dog, I will know soon enough.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

James Downey said:


> That Ace had to come out of your sleeve sooner or later. Originality=fail.
> 
> If I am not mistaken that sounds like a dig? Maybe I do not have an idea. Maybe I am so outside the ballpark it's outrageous. Sounds like my problem doesn't it? Not sure I am blinded by sport. I do not particpate in anyother type of work. It's really my only frame of reference.
> 
> ...


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## James Degale (Jan 9, 2009)

I have used this test many times over the years. It has its uses, mainly to test the dog's nerves, reaction to uncertainty without handler help and to gauge level of independent working. What you are really looking for is a dog that stands its ground, most of the time they will bark but some super confident ones will just stare. I don't like to do it for young dogs because I never want them to fail and recover them. But for older dogs it is a fairly good test of character. I always recover all dogs with a positive.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Sorry Joby, I thought Chris was responding...I could have swore it said chris. Gosh, that's a embarrassing


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

will fernandez said:


> Do you actually believe that a green dog for sale at any big broker in the states has not been conditioned to being staked out and stalked, had some work on searching behavior or retrieving metal?


yes sir Will I do ... I currently own two of them 

taking a look at what they bring naturally and training the dog are two different things in my view Will...a dog being staked out and stalked does not equal training to me ..but thats just me


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

herman williams said:


> brian , sometimes dogs are trained up to 4 months to meet up with K9 center test , before offered to K9 center , there dog will be trained further to meet specific customers needs for certain period and then offered to clients , would you call this a green dog ?


Herman as I said to Will .... taking a dog out and looking at his natural hunt and or level or aggression etc. is NOT training a dog. Its called evaluating a dogs natural drives. At least to me. Again most likely we are juggling semantics. I am sure we agree just using different terms.


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## herman williams (Nov 23, 2011)

dont think so brian , there is a HUGE difference between training and testing , I myself am doing helperwerk for dogs that are going to be offered to K9 centers , and believe me , they are not green , they are training for hours.days weeks and months , to show passing behaviour on K9 centers test

green dog is generally speaking well trained in behaviour wanted by vendors


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## mike suttle (Feb 19, 2008)

will fernandez said:


> Do you actually believe that a green dog for sale at any big broker in the states has not been conditioned to being staked out and stalked, had some work on searching behavior or retrieving metal?


I can tell you for sure that even though I am not a big broker, our dogs damn sure get exposed to as much as we can show them until the day they leave here. However in the case of Brian's dog that he got from me, that dog was raised by a foster home where he grew up on a farm and ran with the horses, chased the ATV, and played with a couple other farm dogs everyday. I got him back a week or so before Brian came and got him. He was never worked on a stakeout, never taught to hunt or retrieve, and had never seen a rag, tug toy, metal pipe or tennis ball since he left my place at 7 weeks old for his foster home.
Now getting back to green dogs, there are many people with different definitions of "green". To me a dog is green until it is certified in its job.
When I was at Parris Island for 13 weeks I was merely a recruit, then one day i graduated and I was a Marine.
I believe a dog is green until he is certified, for example, I sell many dogs to US Customs as detector dog prospects, they have no odor work what so ever. But often times I sell them KNPV titled PH 1 dogs. These dogs are green to Customs work because they have no training in that area at all, so they are sold as green dogs.
Most of our puppies that we raise in our kennel get exposed to a ton of things, different environmental conditions, hunt work, bite work, retrieve work, some obedience, muzzle work, tracking, building and area search work, agility, etc. They are not finished in any of these areas, but they have seen all of those things a few times to make sure we are not waisting our time with a dog that can't do one area of the job required of him. I dont recall any department or agency who didn't appreciate the head start those dogs recieved when they bought those dogs from us. However since they are not certified dogs, I sell them as green dogs.


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

herman williams said:


> dont think so brian , there is a HUGE difference between training and testing , I myself am doing helperwerk for dogs that are going to be offered to K9 centers , and believe me , they are not green , they are training for hours.days weeks and months , to show passing behaviour on K9 centers test
> 
> green dog is generally speaking well trained in behaviour wanted by vendors


Again Herman we are saying the same thing I do believe just saying it differently. That is the downside to these forums lol... please re-read my last post where I wrote "taking a dog out and looking at his natural hunt and or level or aggression etc. is NOT training a dog."


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

herman williams said:


> howard it isnot that hard , take the test , break it in pieces , and condition the dog on the various pieces , reward and built confidence , and thereafter put pieces together
> 
> offcoarse it is not so that every courage lacking dog can be conditioned , but many can


As a classroom teacher, I understand breaking things down and rewarding the point. It seems like all we want to do around the WDF is test. How about some innovative ways of training the pieces to the big program? 

Yep, you can teach a weak dog to bite, but unless it has the willingness to draw on desire, it will never stay in the fight or any other issue that gives it the easy way out, like avoidance.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Howard Gaines III said:


> As a classroom teacher, I understand breaking things down and rewarding the point. It seems like all we want to do around the WDF is test. How about some innovative ways of training the pieces to the big program?
> 
> Yep, you can teach a weak dog to bite, but unless it has the willingness to draw on desire, it will never stay in the fight or any other issue that gives it the easy way out, like avoidance.


 
Not me, I do not test. I don't test puppies, I do not buy older dogs...So no need there. I try to not make evaluations on dogs I am selling for people. I just take video, show them, allow the people to make thier own assement. 

I particularly do not do any formal testing of puppies, because I think you can't see anything more than you can in the dogs normal activity of play, and hanging out. And There are no competetions for puppies. Another reason is, Testing can have some risk to it. If your looking for weakness, I am sure your going to see it if you try hard enough. It's a puppy, an infant. I never assume a pup is special...this places an expectation upon the dog, and I will end up doing something stupid. Because I think I have super puppy.


I also hate selling dogs/pups to working dog people. That's all they want to do is test, test, test. And I do not allow it. Now, I have had some good experiences, I think a pup that went to NY has a trainer with the dogs best interest in hand, and not worrying if the dog is going to Nationals at a year old. 

And the most relaxed situation I put a dog in was a pet home out in western Michigan. They are doing great, and the dog never has to worry about not being good enough. And the biggest mistake they have made with the dog was trying to put panties on her for her heat. 

And I am with Howard. Through training, The flaws reveal themselves. And then I make a determination if I need to deal with it, or do I allow the dog to grow up more? But I think if you going looking for piles of dog shit in the park where your going to pinic...you're going to find one or two. 

I guess to be fair, People who are not primarly trainers, like Law Enforcement handlers. I can see where they are going to see if the dog has the stuff and do not want to have spend to much effort training the dog to be who they want it to be. They would rather just buy the dog they want right out of the box. and that's an assumption about some LE and other handlers that are not primarly trainers.

But I am a trainer first. That's my passion. So, I do want the best raw product I can get. But my dog has changed so much since I decided on him, and it was for the better. But I could not have predicted this is who he was going to be. So I can focus on training the behaviors. But I do have to remind myself quite often that my desire "to see if he can take it" is not a good idea. That if I train smart, he will be able to take it.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

James Downey said:


> I guess to be fair, People who are not primarly trainers, like Law Enforcement handlers. I can see where they are going to see if the dog has the stuff and do not want to have spend to much effort training the dog to be who they want it to be. They would rather just buy the dog they want right out of the box. and that's an assumption about some LE and other handlers that are not primarly trainers.


I think it is mostly the K9 TRAINERS that make the selections, not the handlers.

There are plenty of people that have fulltime training positions, that test dogs all the time...

i THINK almost every dog that is purchased as an adult or young adult, that is being considered to do real work as a biting dog, is tested in some way.

go present some dogs green or not for purchase by K9 trainers/Vendors or the military, that are looking for biting dogs and they will be tested...period.

the people that are selecting the dogs are the trainers, not the handlers..

you cannot train *Heart*, (or what some call Courage) I have heard that phrase a 100 times....

SO if someone is purchasing a dog that will be required to confront people, and must possess courage/heart...it makes sense to test that... that is opinion, I could be wrong...


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Joby Becker said:


> I think it is mostly the K9 TRAINERS that make the selections, not the handlers.
> 
> .


It's exactly that way in our department. Handlers have no say in what dog is selected to work. Having said that, I will, on occasion, try to accommodate a senior handler if he is replacing a dog. I have had handlers getting their second or third dog, purchase one, with the caveat that I evaluate and approve the dog for training. If that does happen, the minute the dog is entered into training the handler signs a donation form giving the dog to the State. No dog enters training without my evaluation and approval. I've refused several. 

DFrost


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> I think it is mostly the K9 TRAINERS that make the selections, not the handlers.
> 
> There are plenty of people that have fulltime training positions, that test dogs all the time...
> 
> ...


Not every Department has a trainer, And I have had handlers buying dogs for thier department call me. But if it makes you feel better, yes sometimes it's the k9 trainer. But the terms handler/trainer could be used interchangbly for the argument. Who is buying the dog is irrelevant but the point being. The LE dept are not afforded the training time I am. The dog needs to be working more than they are training. People like us, they are training more than they are working. And I think I stated that I can see thier desire to test the dog. 

But also, I do not sell dogs generally, I sell puppies. So I do not deal with many real life working people. I had Alice comeback, So some people called on her. And no offense to any real life working dog handlers and trainers on here. Not saying this is you. the ability of the trainer who wants the dog for real life work is very diffcult to gauge or find about thier successes and failures. To be frank, A lot of real life working dog trainers...could ruin anything. So, unless I get some personal reccomendation from someone I trust, I do not sell them dogs. But your right, I see thier need to test. 

I agree courage cannot be installed, trained or whatever you want to call it. It has to be in the dog. But what can happen to courage is it can be ruined or not allowed to reach it's potential. Especially in a young dog. I think a lot of people put really unreasonable expectations on a young dog. They think the pieces that make a warrior should be there already. There is a reason, we allow boys to grow into men before we train them for combat. Those balls need to really drop first, before the warrior training begins. One reaons why it's so common for people to wait before training defense in the dog.


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## CJ Neubert (Sep 7, 2009)

David Frost said:


> Tests, such as the stake out test, are very subjective. I may see something I like/dislike, that another trainer disagrees with. The results will obviously be different for a dog that is truly green opposed to what is presented as green today. As for what does throwing a ball tell me. Absolutely nothing. However, the reaction of the dog to that thrown object can tell me a lot.
> 
> DFrost


I agree, what as presented as green today likely if it is a euro import grew up at a club that the members still stake the dogs out in the club yard and they occasionally get agitated by a helper. They are as a rule very comfortable being staked out to begin with as they are used to it. If you test a dog that has never been staked out you get very different results.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

James Downey said:


> Not every Department has a trainer, And I have had handlers buying dogs for thier department call me. But if it makes you feel better, yes sometimes it's the k9 trainer. But the terms handler/trainer could be used interchangbly for the argument. Who is buying the dog is irrelevant but the point being. The LE dept are not afforded the training time I am. The dog needs to be working more than they are training. People like us, they are training more than they are working. And I think I stated that I can see thier desire to test the dog.
> 
> But also, I do not sell dogs generally, I sell puppies. So I do not deal with many real life working people. I had Alice comeback, So some people called on her. And no offense to any real life working dog handlers and trainers on here. Not saying this is you. the ability of the trainer who wants the dog for real life work is very diffcult to gauge or find about thier successes and failures. To be frank, A lot of real life working dog trainers...could ruin anything. So, unless I get some personal reccomendation from someone I trust, I do not sell them dogs. But your right, I see thier need to test.
> 
> I agree courage cannot be installed, trained or whatever you want to call it. It has to be in the dog. But what can happen to courage is it can be ruined or not allowed to reach it's potential. Especially in a young dog. I think a lot of people put really unreasonable expectations on a young dog. They think the pieces that make a warrior should be there already. There is a reason, we allow boys to grow into men before we train them for combat. Those balls need to really drop first, before the warrior training begins. One reaons why it's so common for people to wait before training defense in the dog.


I can agree with this on some level But you also have to think about this..you are looking at PSD, there are huge numbers of dogs that are selected for other jobs as well. And even if a dept does not have a trainer, they still take the dog to a trainer to go through initial training, for certifications. What happens after certification depends on the departments training protocols..We have a place a couple miles from here that does the training for a large number of local departments. Other departments go to other trainers in Chicago..

For an example. lets just say an organizations DOES have a competent training staff, they are working with larger numbers of dogs, they get dogs in the appropriate age range, say 12-24 months, or whatever they use as their range. They have a specific timeline for training the dogs to a minimum level of performance, to fulfill their certification process. Then the ON THE JOB training takes effect..which is hopefully great training, but if not so great, the dogs still have to possess the traits that will let them succeed, even if the training process would not foster success, with a different dog...They do not have the desire or the luxury to take chances on what ifs, and maybes, they are buying a tool to use for a job, and investing time and money into it. They have service life to consider as well, if a dog cannot be trained to the minimum starting standards until he is 3, that could be 1.5 years of lost service time on that animal. It is true that probably a lot of dogs that are washed out, COULD be successful, but they are still washed, due to protocols...I dont see a problem with that, the dogs are bought as property, to be used as a tool, they are not bought with the intent to purposely explore training nuances, or bought with the intentions of providing the trainers with challenges to overcome, or spend lots of time and effort to train things that other dogs will be proficient at with basic training and minimal hiccups in the process. 

I am also sure that the people selecting, and training dogs prefer dogs that are so well suited for the job they will have, they can perform their jobs well, despite bad handling, or less than stellar training. 

As far as waiting for kids to grow into men before sending them into battle...look at it this way..*lots of Adults are still kids*, and lots of people FAIL to make the grade for the military, maybe the military should not place high standards on their recruits, becuase they probably miss out on some good warriors that wash out, that might have passed with longer preparation and training...

It is also not uncommon that dogs are also affected by the people that raise and train them, before testing..most people I talk to want a dog to pass the tests, with as little training as possible, and also prefer a dog with little OB training, and little control put on the bitework, and NO out trained, if they are being bought as untrained dogs to go through full training...The trainers would rather do this in terms of what they want and how they want to do it... many times the dogs have been inhibited in their behaviors, are not FREE enough, by the previous owners...etc.etc. 

I will add this, sure a lot of dogs that are probably good dogs, get washed. But if more breeders were breeding dogs that possess the traits to pass the tests at the appropriate age, according to the standards of the industries, less dogs would get washed.

Where the stake-out test is concerned I have seen dogs that can pass most stake out tests, for selection, at ages as early as 9-10 months. maybe even earlier. If testing dogs for selection was a concern for you, which dogs would you rather purchase, dogs that could pass all the tests at an age of 12-14 months, or a dog that could not pass until 3 yrs old?

Which dog would you rather purchase, a dog that passes the test with minimal exposure to things, that has strong traits for the work naturally, or a dog that needed to be trained, or allowed to grow up longer to be able to pass?

The tests are designed to pick dogs that are the best candidates to make it through the initial training, and be successful for their jobs, according to the protocols that are in place...right or wrong, like it or not the people testing are the people buying the dogs, and investing in them, so they have standards on what they want to buy...the goal is efficiency, the goal is not about feeling good about the trainers and handlers skills, and feeling successful because dedicated lots of extra time and training to help a dog out that was lacking initially.

also as far as courage is concerned, it does not take a lot of skill or maturity to be courageous, ever see the militants in some 3rd world countries. Some of those kids are battle hardened at ages of 12-13-14, these kids are living in the jungle, or bombed out cities, cradling shoulder fire rockets, or AK-47's..killing people and getting killed, at ages that our kids here are pouting about being grounded, or not getting a snowboard for Christmas, or not having a cell phone. Not saying that is good or right, but it is what it is....


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Everything we do with working dogs IS A TEST. OB, Tracking, Protection, Sport...you name it. Call it an evaluation, assessment, critique, or whatever. IMO, when you train beyong the "standard" and use as many conditions and environmental factors as possible, you prepare the dog for the venue which is the test itself.

It doesn't happen until the rubber meets the road. PSDs don't get it until they are faced with real life issue; the hot and humid nights with drunks throwing REAL bottles and wearing little clothes. You don't train dogs on naked decoys/helpers as everyone uses safety gear for bite work. 

Your training in tracking might be on a turf farm, but when that kid gets lost in green briar and ass deep mud...this is the test!

I'll go back to this, showcase as many different conditions as your mind can dream up, keeping them real, and when your dog has to see them as real conditions they should sail right thought it! =D>


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Howard Gaines III said:


> It doesn't happen until the rubber meets the road. PSDs don't get it until they are faced with real life issue; the hot and humid nights with drunks throwing REAL bottles and wearing little clothes. You don't train dogs on naked decoys/helpers as everyone uses safety gear for bite work.
> 
> Your training in tracking might be on a turf farm, but when that kid gets lost in green briar and ass deep mud...this is the test!
> 
> ! =D>


As much as we attempt to replicate what the dog may encounter, you are right. While we certainly like to predict how a dog will respond, we just don't know until it's nut cuttin' time. Over the years, I've been surprised both ways with dogs. Kind of like people. You don't know until it's put up or shut up. As for the tracking, we do have some pretty sadistic track layers. 

DFrost


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

Joby Becker said:


> ...I dont see a problem with that, the dogs are bought as property, to be used as a tool, they are not bought with the intent to purposely explore training nuances, or bought with the intentions of providing the trainers with challenges to overcome, or spend lots of time and effort to train things that other dogs will be proficient at with basic training and minimal hiccups in the process.
> 
> I am also sure that the people selecting, and training dogs prefer dogs that are so well suited for the job they will have, they can perform their jobs well, despite bad handling, or less than stellar training.
> 
> ...


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

will fernandez said:


> Joby Becker said:
> 
> 
> > ...I dont see a problem with that, the dogs are bought as property, to be used as a tool, they are not bought with the intent to purposely explore training nuances, or bought with the intentions of providing the trainers with challenges to overcome, or spend lots of time and effort to train things that other dogs will be proficient at with basic training and minimal hiccups in the process.
> ...


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> I can agree with this on some level But you also have to think about this..you are looking at PSD, there are huge numbers of dogs that are selected for other jobs as well. And even if a dept does not have a trainer, they still take the dog to a trainer to go through initial training, for certifications. What happens after certification depends on the departments training protocols..We have a place a couple miles from here that does the training for a large number of local departments. Other departments go to other trainers in Chicago..
> 
> For an example. lets just say an organizations DOES have a competent training staff, they are working with larger numbers of dogs, they get dogs in the appropriate age range, say 12-24 months, or whatever they use as their range. They have a specific timeline for training the dogs to a minimum level of performance, to fulfill their certification process. Then the ON THE JOB training takes effect..which is hopefully great training, but if not so great, the dogs still have to possess the traits that will let them succeed, even if the training process would not foster success, with a different dog...They do not have the desire or the luxury to take chances on what ifs, and maybes, they are buying a tool to use for a job, and investing time and money into it. They have service life to consider as well, if a dog cannot be trained to the minimum starting standards until he is 3, that could be 1.5 years of lost service time on that animal. It is true that probably a lot of dogs that are washed out, COULD be successful, but they are still washed, due to protocols...I dont see a problem with that, the dogs are bought as property, to be used as a tool, they are not bought with the intent to purposely explore training nuances, or bought with the intentions of providing the trainers with challenges to overcome, or spend lots of time and effort to train things that other dogs will be proficient at with basic training and minimal hiccups in the process.
> 
> ...


Some valid points on the timeline issues the police face. 

The Military does have pretty mediocre standards for recruiting. 

And as for your question about which dog. I seriously do not worry about what I see as a pup. I used to. I also do not mind waiting, I try to put as little expectation on the dog to fit my mold while they are growing up. and most dogs if they ain't got it by 18 mos. and for sure 2...they ain't ever going to have it. Maturity does peak out. but horomnal changes are real. But Just after seeing more than a few dogs who did not have the stuff as pups that were written off, grow up to be bad asses and go to the highest levels of competetion. I have since really taken what a puppy or even a young dog shows with a grain of salt. In my game, it's not where you start, it's where you finish. 

And you want to talk about natural. I cannot think of any species besids humans that is willing to through thier immature into battle.

And the third world children warriors. If I thought deprivation from privelage made a good warrior... I would employ that with my dogs. I think those child soldiers, just because they are pulling the trigger and getting shot at does not equal courage. I am sure we both cannot thoroughly prove our beliefs on this one. But some of those kids carrying AKs are running the other way when the shit goes down, shitting thier pants, crying for mommy. Some of them are afraid of the dark and the boogie man still. And to get them to do what they do. I have to imagine shit so unethical is done to those kids to get them to fight it would proabably make us both sick to our stomachs. And just a last word on that....America has some of the best soldiers, marines, saliors and airmen in the world....And we wait.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

"The Military does have pretty mediocre standards for recruiting."

The military also has a lot more money than police departments. That enables them to buy a lot of dogs and plan for high percentage of washouts. If it wasn't for asset seizures, our canine unit would suffer greatly due to budget constraints. There have been many police departments that have cut way back on their canine units, some have been disbanded. 

DFrost


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

David Frost said:


> "The Military does have pretty mediocre standards for recruiting."
> 
> The military also has a lot more money than police departments. That enables them to buy a lot of dogs and plan for high percentage of washouts. If it wasn't for asset seizures, our canine unit would suffer greatly due to budget constraints. There have been many police departments that have cut way back on their canine units, some have been disbanded.
> 
> DFrost


 David even in these hard times, have you guys tried something like an "adopt a K-9?" The public gets a basic profile of the dogs you have and are posted on a "baseball card," they donate funds for K-9 equipment and such. It's pretty much a feel good thing but the department then has private funds to spend as they need in the K-9 venues? Vests, leads, GPS units, etc...


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

We were just awarded two different, nongovernment grants. This is the first time we've even been allowed to seek a grants that was not government related. The department doesn't allow any type of fund raising from area businesses etc. It's classed as a conflict of interest. The department is very conscious of the appearance of any type of conflict of interest. I'm not even permitted to train detector dogs, for example, for profit in my off-duty time. Since it is a service we provide to police departments, free, it's classed as potential conflict of interest. I don't have a problem with it. It is what it is. Besides, I really really do not want to train privately. I have been asked to speak at a few seminars for which I recieved a stipend, which I claim on my travel voucher. I'm not permitted to accept a fee. It was the same when I taught Convoy and Pipeline for MCSAP. 

DFrost


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