# Teaching a straight front sit on recall



## vicki dickey (Jul 5, 2011)

I am working with my 7 month old on a straight front sit on a recall. Does anyone have a method that they used with success for a good straight front sit?


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

assuming you can lure the dog, assuming it already has a properly positioned sit, assuming it will recall, and assuming you are using OC
(i know; lotta assumptions)

start with short ones (<10ft recall) and hold your lure where you want him to sit : at your navel plus/minus for his sit height. if he doesn't go to that spot rotate and/or back a bit as he comes back so he IS straight and mark it.....don't let him sit any other way - if he does, ignore it and start the rep over ... increase DDD
...and of course fade the "rotation" and lure as he gets it and add the command just b4 his butt goes down .... when you know it will

have him bring something back in his mouth and you will be ahead of the game for that behavior later on


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## vicki dickey (Jul 5, 2011)

Yep he has a great recall. He can be lured to sit front and center. I have been working him that way for a couple of months. He sits slightly to my right if I do not lure and have my hands at my sides. I have used boards to help direct him in straight but he has that slight turn to the right. Am I asking for a straight sit without the lure too fast?


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## Lisa Brazeau (May 6, 2010)

You are probably delivering the food with you're right hand too much? Try switching off between left and right.  Don't reach into you're bait bag with your right, and pass the food to you're left either.


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## vicki dickey (Jul 5, 2011)

No I use both hands. when I call him in as soon as he gets close I tell him sit straight and use both hands front and center and low enough for him. If he still sits a bit off I backup and ask for a straight sit -he gets the reward once he gives me a straight sit. Perhaps I just need to continue this longer with this dog-he is a bit slower at this than my other dogs were but he has been faster with other things. Each dog is different. I just thought maybe someone had something new I could try that might click for him.


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## Mircea Hemu-Ha (Nov 24, 2009)

vicki dickey said:


> No I use both hands. when I call him in as soon as he gets close I tell him sit straight and use both hands front and center and low enough for him. If he still sits a bit off I backup and ask for a straight sit -he gets the reward once he gives me a straight sit. Perhaps I just need to continue this longer with this dog-he is a bit slower at this than my other dogs were but he has been faster with other things. Each dog is different. I just thought maybe someone had something new I could try that might click for him.


Do you also reward with both hands, on the center of your body, not just lure ?
I use 2 obstacle, usually a chair and a wall, and ask the dog to come+sit, while luring him to get closer with both hands, mark+reward with both hands on the center, while i step back. All i have to do is guide him closer, he'll sit straight. As soon as i can get him close enough, i put the obstacles farther apart.

I had this problem with a long-bodied GSD, she had poor control over her hind legs and, if she came in too hot, she would miss the position, also in coming to heel. She got through it in time.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

the boards are "teaching" him nothing imo 

i listed my assumptions on purpose, and regarding luring .... i think we are probably not quite on the same page 

the way i was taught, you never "lure" with two hands, and imo if you can't lure effectively with either hand you haven't learned how to lure effectively yet 

- but i doubt we are talking the same technique since when i lure a dog to my navel (or anywhere else) my lure is practically in its mouth and i will make a guess that is not what you are doing. all i have to do to get them straight is "maybe" take another step backwards until they are straight

- i'll bet if you try it my way he CANNOT sit crooked because you will not mark and deliver the treat until he IS straight and in position 

anyway, i'm probably just imagining something different in my mind and can't clarify it any more without watching you do it


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

the two handed technique seems to be more like presenting a target than luring

barriers can certainly make it easier in the VERY beginning, but they don't "teach" anything and should only be used for a dog with major problems or a really young pup and quickly removed as soon as possible

if the dog is too antsy, slow down the speed and/or minimize distance until you get the form correct...then speed up

since you mentioned he has a great recall that could also be a contributing factor.....if it can't sit straight from a 5-6 ft recall why try from any greater distance which will obviously speed up the dog and maybe compound the problem

you are obviously going for perfection and not sloppiness, so why not get a nice, short, SLOW, perfect one solid first ????


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## vicki dickey (Jul 5, 2011)

Rick we are on different pages. In obedience class we were taught to "lure" them in with BOTH hands and when he sat straight to give him the treat. I do back up as needed to get the sit. By using one hand or another I would think he would then sit in that direction. In fact my trainer asked if I used only my right hand which I do not and that surprised her. And in class we were shown the boards to help them move in striaght. It did help some of the dogs, however,he still has a way of shifting to the right.
I will keep working on it.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Vicki do not put the dog at any distance. Do not recall the dog. Just make your front perfect. 

First the disclaimer....This has all been ripped off from other trainers.

Also, try this. put your dog in a sit....walk up them so they would be in a front. Do not call the dog. tell them to wait or sit but nothing else. you walk up. If the dog backs up...There is your first problem. Your dog is not comfortable with you being in thier bubble. But solve it by placing the dog in a sit, you walk up. Do this till the dog will let you without any aversion. All dogs do this, so do not worry about it. It's just like you have a personal bubble. But if you wanna be on dancing with the stars...your going to have to learn to get over your personal space. That's all your teaching the dog. and after they got it. This should stop you distance problem. The whole backing up thing is bullshit. It just teaches the dog that's the sequence to a reward.....Come, sit 4 inches away, handler backs up, dog moves in, reward. I watched people do this at the AWDF with 6 year old dogs. I watched Sean Riveria and Iron have a perfect front on every one. 

Do this alot. This first gives you a picture of what is perfect. Reward only when the dog is perfect. Nothing else. So your dog never has a bad picture in his mind on what gets a reward. You have to be patient. Now start adding a command. Walk up, say the command reward. Do this alot. Even move to the side and say no or your no reward marker...to tell them that is not it. then step back into perfect say the command and reward. Start proofing this. Move your hands and mark no for your dog looking at them. wait till eye contact is perfect before you reward. Try to get them to move....if the do, say no and make them do it again.

Next put you dog in a down...you may have to reteach them not to move. So the generalize the personal space thing. But when you can walk up to them in a down and get close....your feet inside or outside of thiers. Say the sit, Then your front command. mark and reward. popping up out of a down, the dog should be perfect. if not you need to be in better position. but only reward the perfect ones. 

Then take a step back and say your front command. Again, only reward those that are perfect. Now from here. you turn your body a little. So the dog can not just pop up, take a step and be perfect...they have to move to be infront of you. This may take some luring and ingenuity. Go back if they are having problem to reiforce the picture. 

Keep uping the anty by asking the behavior in different contexts. as they become better. You should overtime, be able to get the dog from behind you (but no more than a step or two) come around and be in front.

The dog should be able from a finish go to front....all this has to be perfect before you add the recall. If you keep recalling your dog, and then take time to fix the front...the recall will suffer. But if your dog knows front as a perfect position...no matter where the dog is if you say front, they should race to get to the magic hotspot.

They need to know that front means to be in front, close, looking in your eyes. And try to fade the luring as fast as possible. The more they rely on it...the more they rely on it.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Sit on a low chair or stool with your legs straight out in front of you forming a V. Lure the dog into the V, close to your crotch and wait for him to sit. Mark the sit and feed. Release the dog and throw a piece of food, in a random direction, a few feet away and let the dog go and eat the food. When the dog swallows the food call the dog to you and lure into the correct position. Mark the sit and feed. Release the dog and throw a piece of food, in a random direction, a few feet away and let the dog go and eat the food. When the dog swallows the food call the dog to you and lure into the correct position.........


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Chris's method, Is very clever. I think that doing this first is a very good idea.


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## Marta Wajngarten (Jul 30, 2006)

I would say stop luring the damn dog and teach him what's expected. If you keep luring too much your dog goes on auto pilot and all brain function goes out the window. They're following what you're doing and not putting an ounce of thought into what is expected of them. Same goes for all the environmental barriers. You can use these methods to get your dog started, but if you never wean him off and keep holding his hand, he's not learning any thing. You use these to limit choices while you reward the correct choice, but if you're doing barriers and luring together, you're never giving your dog a chance to make the right choice on his own and have that AHA! moment.

You obviously have some beginning of a front, so set him up to offer you a front then only mark and reward when the front is perfectly what you want it to be. Forget about doing any recalls from a distance until you have the actual front position to be perfectly clear and reliable. You will never get a good front from recall if the dog isn't perfectly clear on the position to begin with and he never will be if you keep helping him. 

When you start seeing a good front you're happy with, I would start adding some movement laterally to really proof the dog's understanding of being straight. So dog fronts, mark/treat tell him to stay, take a single step to the back and to one side and recall. Do that using both directions, do that rotating in relationship to the dog. When he's good, move over side ways one step and force him to side step into a straight front. If he can do that, then you can start adding the recall/distance. 

What I have done with my Corso who has a giant ass trailing behind him, to help him out some times realize that his ass is sideways was to tap him with a riding crop and teach him to move his ass away from the crop and in line with the rest of his body. That was my fast forward button to get him to start offering the straight sits in front and just to help him realize his ass can move too. Then it was back to offer me what I want and you get rewarded for it.


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## vicki dickey (Jul 5, 2011)

I totally get teaching the front first and why it should come before the recall. Chris I have used your method and he does that well.I think in class they had us progress too quickly to a recall. I will start work on the front and keep you all posted on his progress.
Thank you so much!


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Yrs ago I used the expandable baby gates to guide the dog into a straight sit front. From that it was just a matter of weaning the dog off of the gate to boards on the ground and finally just a couple of 12 inch rulers. 
that was before marker training for me and I suspect that markers would make it a lot smoother now.
The nice thing about the gates is that the dog can only come in straight. Same with Chris's idea of the legs out straight on a low seat. If the dog wants to get in the correct position it can only go down the chute created by the boards or the legs. 
"Food thrown in random directions", aka Chris, will proof coming in straight until it becomes a trained behavior.


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## Nicole Lit (Jan 21, 2009)

I would suggest a bit of many of the words of advice that have been offered. 

I don't recall reading it yet but it's late so maybe I missed it or I'm just to lazy to go back and re-read all the responses :wink:

Personally, I would start again first with teaching the correct front position. Don't have the dog come to you but rather position yourself in front position to the dog, ensuring correct position. Do this consistently for quite some time and don't rush ahead to recalling, even from a short distance. At this point it is only to "ingrain" correct position. Be sure to re-affirm correct position with a marker repeatedly. Make this the best place in the world for the dog to be when it is in correct position. 

You could also try food reward drop from your mouth (it takes practice but before you know it, both you and dog will have it down pact)...You note that you use both hands for reward yet in most/many cases, rewarding too consistently from one side over the over can lead to that crooked behaviour positon. Maybe you do, but maybe it's also time to try something different to avoid going back to the whole muscle memory thing, as it sounds like this is somewhat ingrained at this point. 

Once you have ingrained the correct position for front, then you can begin with a very very very short distance (even 1-2 steps) and then gradually increase distance. When you start with the short steps, go ahead and use some form of the "chute" as Bob and others have mentioned, slowly transitioning them out. 

I have also used an OB stick (like what Marta described re: the riding crop) in the past (to give a little reminder "tap") and it worked well, but its' use would also depend on the dog's level of sensitivity to the handler. With some dogs, this could easily backfire and lead to avoidance in the front postion which can worsen the crooked position, so if you choose to use it, just be mindful of this. 

PS: Have you done any sort of rear-end awareness activities such as perch work? Many dogs have a difficult time understanding that their rear end actually is attached to their body . Perch work can be hugely benefical for this too.

Good luck and keep us posted.


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## Nicole Lit (Jan 21, 2009)

vicki dickey said:


> I think in class they had us progress too quickly to a recall.


Ah yes, been there, done that! 8-[


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## Lori Gallo (May 16, 2011)

".....you walk up. If the dog backs up...There is your first problem. Your dog is not comfortable with you being in thier bubble. But solve it by placing the dog in a sit, you walk up. Do this till the dog will let you without any aversion. All dogs do this, so do not worry about it. It's just like you have a personal bubble. But if you wanna be on dancing with the stars...your going to have to learn to get over your personal space. That's all your teaching the dog. and after they got it. This should stop you distance problem. The whole backing up thing is bullshit. It just teaches the dog that's the sequence to a reward.....Come, sit 4 inches away, handler backs up, dog moves in, reward. I watched people do this at the AWDF with 6 year old dogs. I watched Sean Riveria and Iron have a perfect front on every one."


Someone told me my first dog was avoiding me on a close sit in front and I wasn't sure how to fix it....never really did but James' method makes the most sense to me for dog's who have established a pattern of backing up....


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## vicki dickey (Jul 5, 2011)

For rear end awareness I duck tape a phonebook completely, I teach the dog to stand on the book with his front legs using a clicker and treats. When they see that book they run to it and get in position. Then one step at a time I teach them to go around the book using a treat to lure them at first. This helps them learn to manuever their rear and is great fot left turns, pivots etc

Indy is not concerned with coming in close to me in fact at first would almost sit on my feet-just has that shift to the right. One of the reasons I think dogs will not come in close to some people is the tendacy people have to bend forward teaching the recall. In class I have watched many people bending over to encourage a dog to come in. No one likes to have someone looming over them so the dogs stops outside of that and before you know it you have taught them to stop too far out.
We start today on teaching the front. That makes so much sense to me. I have time and do not plan to rush him. I am excited about this pup =he loves to please and is always looking at me and although he is slower to learn than Zak when he does learn something he is solid with it. I do not want to make any mistakes with him and I am not in a rush to show him. I read everything on this forum to learn as much as I can.


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## Marta Wajngarten (Jul 30, 2006)

Lori Gallo said:


> ".....you walk up. If the dog backs up...There is your first problem. Your dog is not comfortable with you being in thier bubble. But solve it by placing the dog in a sit, you walk up. Do this till the dog will let you without any aversion. All dogs do this, so do not worry about it. It's just like you have a personal bubble. But if you wanna be on dancing with the stars...your going to have to learn to get over your personal space. That's all your teaching the dog. and after they got it. This should stop you distance problem. The whole backing up thing is bullshit. It just teaches the dog that's the sequence to a reward.....Come, sit 4 inches away, handler backs up, dog moves in, reward. I watched people do this at the AWDF with 6 year old dogs. I watched Sean Riveria and Iron have a perfect front on every one."
> 
> 
> Someone told me my first dog was avoiding me on a close sit in front and I wasn't sure how to fix it....never really did but James' method makes the most sense to me for dog's who have established a pattern of backing up....


Yup I've seen this too, the dogs learn that a command means a two step process at getting their reward. 

This will benefit any dog, but especially for dogs that don't come close enough make them target touch a specific part of your body with their chin as they come to front. For my corso one of the criteria of his front is a chin touch to my chest. I know some one who did the same with a nose touch to a belt buckle.


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## Nicole Lit (Jan 21, 2009)

Good for you Vicki - Looking forward to hearing how it goes


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