# Looking for advise on training puppy Sch SPORT tracking



## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

I am tracking my 5 month old GSD puppy 4 or 5 times a week, 1 or 2 tracks a day. Still straight tracks (about 20 25 yards long at the most) & still food in each footstep. I am finding that he is so hyped up at the start of the track& is going too fast (missing hot dogs for approx the first 5 feet!) I'm still using the leash under the leg technique & keeping him between my legs & my hand down at his body for control, but he's getting big & strong & I would like to nip this problem in the bud before he gets any stronger. I'm wondering if I should go back to just doing scent pads for a while & getting him to really settle down & stay platzed, then just move him off the scent pad without making a track until he gets the idea to start in a more calm manner. My thinking is that he is rushing because maybe I didn't do enough scent pad work in the beginning? Does this sound right to anyone, or does anyone have other suggestions?
Thanks,
Sue


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## Sarah Hall (Apr 12, 2006)

Remember, this is still a hyper young pup. At 5 months old they'll have "brainfarts" (my dad introduced me to that phrase :roll: ) and forget how to mind. IMO, you need to get more leash control on this dog. Don't allow him to surge ahead while tracking. Also, you may have not done enough scent pad work, like you said, for him to be more careful.
I train young dogs and puppies to track by doing exactly what you are doing: place a tiny amount of food in each footstep. I also make sure the dog is extremely hungry, so then they'll want every single piece of the food (usually beef liver or freeze-dried chicken treats) and won't skip it over. I also make sure, however, to lay a scent pad at the beginning and at the end. At the very first trainings, all I teach the dog is to smell the scent pad and to recognize that "Seek" (or whatever command you choose to use) means, "Get that nose down and sniff to find some good stuff!" I put treats all over the scent pad, then gradually reduce them to be triangular in shape. Make sure you introduce tracking flags from the beginning, because the dog will learn that to the right of the flag will be the track and therefore rewards!
After teaching the dog to begin taking scent at the scent pad, I will start the footstep baited tracking. To get the dog's interest spiked, I will crate the dog in hearing range, and call to him and tease him, so he WANTS to track and get the prize at the end. I make sure I always have someone else with me to get the harness on and untangle my tracking line before I head back to the dog. Therefore we can start immediately on the track, instead of frustrating the dog by spending time hooking him up, etc. Any sort of delay at the start can quickly kill that enthusiasm I kicked up with the calling and teasing. I also point out every single footstep treat, so the dog learns to work carefully. As soon as the dog starts to get it, I stop pointing out the bait and I let the dog do it himself. I usually keep a very short leash on them at this point, 2-3 ft at the most. At the end of the track, the dog always finds a whole bunch of food, and also it's favorite toy. Then, we engage in play for a few minutes to reinforce the idea that when they reach the end of the track there is a fun and rewarding experience!
After the dog has been doing this for a few weeks (depending on the time spent every week) I VERY slowly begin reducing the bait. This way the dog still scents out every footstep. Once you start reducing the bait, you'll need to introduce the articles. These need to be hand size or smaller, as well as a variety of fabrics and materials. I like leather gloves or simply squares and cloth scraps. At a few trials I've been at, all the articles have been were squares of leather and/or cloth. Also, make sure the material used is the same darkness or lightness of the surrounding grasses. We want the dog to scent the article out, not just rush forward because they see it!
I could practically write a book here about teaching tracking, but I'll leave you with this: I would recommend you review the requirements for SchH tracking and train to meet them. I, personally, like to over-train a dog, such as train to a SchH2 level before trying for a SchH1. It won't hurt anything, it may take a little longer, but the stress of the trial (which you WILL have) won't affect the dog as badly as if he was only trained for the SchH1 level. Go to a very good trainer or SchH club with very experienced members that can assist you in tracklaying techniques and training. Remember, if you fail tracking (like obedience and protection), you fail the trial.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Yes, I pretty much do the same as you, but have not tried laying a scent pad at the end of the track, however, it sounds like a great idea & I'm going to give it a go. As far as the line goes, at this stage I hold the leash down at the shoulder, just above his arm pit, so I don't think it's an issue of too much line. I am definetly going to just put down some scent pads for the next few days & see if that helps. I agree control is a big issue with high drive dogs.

As far as nerves & trials, that has always been my down fall with all my previous gsd's! I'm hoping with the new pup it will be different. You know, I just might pop a valium to get over myself at trials. I've had permormance issues going back to childhood, so I'd really like some advise on that, too.


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## Sarah Hall (Apr 12, 2006)

What kind of advice do you need?


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

I guess I 'm looking to find out how other people who get overly nervous before a trial calm down. Do you think it's a matter of trialing enough times to get over it, or are there specific things to do not be so anxious? I know lots of lucky people who are not fazed by any type of competitive events, but unfortunately I do not fall into that category!


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## Sarah Hall (Apr 12, 2006)

I was quite nervous the first 5 trials, just because I was so new to the sport back then. I think a combination of knowing what the hell I was doing, and knowing my dog can do it calmed me. I also listen to music that puts me in a good, calm state of mind. For me, it's Jimmy Buffett (c'mon, I'm a Florida girl, I HAVE to like him. lol). I just like running the whole trial through my mind and remind myself (as cheesy as it sounds) that I will do the best I can. I also have a weird thing about my agitation collar. I only use one on any dog for trialing. I guess a "lucky collar" type superstition? I know, I know, I'm weird. But I know this isn't uncommon by far!


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

The music is a good idea, so is the lucky agitation collar. I guess what you are saying is be prepared & have confidence? I posed this same question to Connie in a pm, she also had some good advise: Whats the worst that can happen?

Thanks a lot for your advise & I will take it to heart.


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## Sarah Hall (Apr 12, 2006)

If you need any other advice or anything, just PM me. Connie's advice is pretty much also what I go in thinking. If I don't title at this trial, I'm not going to die or get harmed. Yes, maybe a little pride will be hurt, but it's always good to keep that in check anyways.


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## Alicia Mertz (Mar 28, 2006)

Not to steal your thread, Susan, but since it's been mentioned so many times in this conversation, would someone mind telling me how to properly lay a scent pad and then exactly what I need to be doing/looking for when I take my puppy to it?

I have a general idea of what to do, but I never got very far with Jaeger in tracking - he's always just wanted to track by air scent. Never could get the bugger to put his nose to the ground.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Hi Alicia, it's a great question & I am looking forward to people with more experience than myself responding. My .02 =: The scent pad is really important because this is where the dog starts the track. It signals to the dog he is going to start tracking& also this is where he takes in the initial scent. I stamp out scent pads in the beginning about 3 feet x 3 feet & remeber to mark it with flags so you know exactly where it is. Lay bait in a triangle, with the widest part being the bottom & the tip towards where your track would start. I initially tie pup out & let him watch & that gets him curious. For bait, I think teeny tiny bits of hot dog or rollover is good - anything the dog loves that can be snuffled up, but won't be distracted by having to chew. Once my dog starts to figure out what a scent pad is, I have him platz when I bring him up to it, but give him the command (I use "seek"). I put the leash under front leg & hold the leash down practically in the area of the armpit for control. In the beginning point to each piece of bait & repeat the command. As a matter of fact, I am going back to doing just scent pads again because my pup is moving off the scent pads too quickly & I have to nip this in the bud because it's a really bad habit!


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Susan, 
Definately go back to the scent pad. You can't do to much of this, IMHO. 
One thing I do different from what you described. I fill the whole square with food. Not just a triangle. The traingle comes later when I know the dog is using his nose to stay in the square. I don't want areas of the square to be nonproductive. When the dog hits the edges of the square and immediately turns back in, THEN I start stamping out a triangle. Next step after the triangle is a couple of steps off of the tip of the triangle. From there' it should be pretty smooth sailing. JMHO! :wink: 
Alicia, are you staying right up along side the dog? You may be moving to fast. You need to be right next to him and, if necessary, point out the food. Stay with the scent pad till he understands.
My dog was trained in SAR (air scent) for almost a year before I started FST. He's never really had a problem distinguishing the two, primarily because of the scent pad. It's a totally different game, with different collars and commands then real search work. 
Sport tracking is more of a scent training disciline. It's all about correctness rather then the find.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Susan, 
Definately go back to the scent pad. You can't do to much of this, IMHO. 
One thing I do different from what you described. I fill the whole square with food. Not just a triangle. The traingle comes later when I know the dog is using his nose to stay in the square. I don't want areas of the square to be nonproductive. When the dog hits the edges of the square and immediately turns back in, THEN I start stamping out a triangle. Next step after the triangle is a couple of steps off of the tip of the triangle. From there' it should be pretty smooth sailing. JMHO! :wink: 
Alicia, are you staying right up along side the dog? You may be moving to fast. You need to be right next to him and, if necessary, point out the food. Stay with the scent pad till he understands.
My dog was trained in SAR (air scent) for almost a year before I started FST. He's never really had a problem distinguishing the two, primarily because of the scent pad. It's a totally different game, with different collars and commands then real search work. 
Sport tracking is more of a scent training disciline. It's all about correctness rather then the find.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Hey thanks Bob, I will definetly go back to a square. That in fact, may be exactly what the problem was, I rushed him off into a triangle instead of starting with a square. That really makes sense to me. Also, are you saying that in footstep tracking, you don't start your first bit of food in the first footstep? Why is that? Sure appreciate the help!


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Susan, the first dog I ever taught tracking to was a Border terrier about 15 yrs ago. We didn't use the scent pad at the time and the dogs often took of to fast and missed tracks. I think the scent pad helps them to start slow and concentrate more. I still start all my dog's tracks with a scent pad. Even do scent pads by their self. Kinda like a big league baseball player taking batting practice. When he trials, HOPEFULLY,  he'll spend a little more time getting started.
Definately start the first foot steps off with food. Put food in EVER foot step and gradually, randomly, wean him of of the food. He's now understanding the connection of the crushed grass/disturbed soil in the scent box, but he's also now moving. Stay RIGHT along side the dog and don't allow any backing up for missed food. 
Work the articles as a TOTALLY seperate exercise, and don't put them together till BOTH the tracking AND the article indications are solid.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Yes, I've always done food in each footstep. I'm thinking that when I moved him on to tracks from scent pads I should have also continued reinforcing scent pads by doing a couple as a seperate exercize every day (as I did in the begininning). Also, I am most def going back to square scent pads. I think I may be asking too much, too fast & the result has been this awful Speedy Gonzalez business for the first 5 feet of the track. I MUST stop this now while he is little! I want him to be a slow precise tracker for sch (don't we all!!!).

Oh, & Bob, the PVC pipe trick is such a back saver! I'll be able to put food in each footstep for as long as I need. I was a little worried what with my bad back, but this is just perfect.

I am so thankful for being able to go on these boards & take advantage of everyones' experience. I am also very lucky that you all are willing to share & have such generous spirits.

Thanks so much


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Yes, I've always done food in each footstep. I'm thinking that when I moved him on to tracks from scent pads I should have also continued reinforcing scent pads by doing a couple as a seperate exercize every day (as I did in the begininning). Also, I am most def going back to square scent pads. I think I may be asking too much, too fast & the result has been this awful Speedy Gonzalez business for the first 5 feet of the track. I MUST stop this now while he is little! I want him to be a slow precise tracker for sch (don't we all!!!).

Oh, & Bob, the PVC pipe trick is such a back saver! I'll be able to put food in each footstep for as long as I need. I was a little worried what with my bad back, but this is just perfect.

I am so thankful for being able to go on these boards & take advantage of everyones' experience. I am also very lucky that you all are willing to share & have such generous spirits.

Thanks so much


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## Sarah Hall (Apr 12, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> Work the articles as a TOTALLY seperate exercise, and don't put them together till BOTH the tracking AND the article indications are solid.


Correct, Bob. I should've made sure to say that. How do you teach the article indications?


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

Just a question:

Do y'all walk forwards or backwards when you make the track? Seems to me like walking backwards would make putting the food in each footstep even easier (with or without the pvc pipe). Thoughts?


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

I've never thought of walking backwards, it might be ok for little tracks, but I can't see it even at the distance I'm doing, Im the worlds biggest klutz & would probably trip over a twig or something!


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

In the scent pad I'm not concerned with direction. I just stomp all over. On the track, I only go forward. I'd probably fall on my head if I tried doing it backwards.  :lol: 
With the articles, I just toss my wallet, keys, scented pieces of wood around the yard/field. When the dog puts his nose on them, I give a platz command and reward at the article. I don't do this with a lot of excitement because I don't want the dog to pop up.
Some place food under the article. I'm not a big fan of this because it can cause the dog to flip the article to get the food. 
The only problem I had was I trained Thunder to give a bark alert on article search in SAR. It took a bit for him to realize I wanted a nice quiet down for tracking.


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

I've been trying to find this for several days, because I wanted to post it here and get some feedback. I was finally able to located it again, and it does have to do with the original post in this thread, which is why I did not start a new thread. This is parts 1 and 2 of "Only the NOSE really KNOWS" by Armin Winkler. 

http://www.schutzhundvillage.com/nose1.html

http://www.schutzhundvillage.com/nose2.html


To me, a nOOb, it seems as if he has broken everything down very clearly, & made some good points. But, before I go out and do anything, I wanted to hear what others who have trained tracking had to say about it. This is a first for me!


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Excellent info! I have the Schutzhund village on my list of favs. I still prefer to not put the food under the articles. It obviously workes, but can creat problems with the dog flipping articles if not done correctly. Just my preference. 
The article also explains the triangle better.


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

Here's what he has to say about the flipping issue:



> I hear questions. "Isn't the flipping going to be a problem later?" It would be if it stayed. But it won't stay. The reason this is important is the following. The dog needs to be rewarded where he downs, no better way to do that than to have the food at the article. You have to have the food covered up though and the smell of it too, or the dog can't make the connection we want. When we first teach the dog to down with food, we have it in our hands and give it to them as soon as they move into the down position. But we soon get away from that and reward different and later and change how we reward. All this will take place at the articles too. I will jump ahead here and say that as the dogs proficiency in indicating articles gets better and the reliability of the platz becomes very high, we stop putting food under the article. The dog will flip the articles and find nothing, we then bring the reward to them. In the beginning, the reward will continue to be in the form of food, or in later stages in the form of praising and petting. The dogs will stop flipping the articles because the expectation of food under it will no longer be maintained and supported. I wanted to add this progression in here because I do not want people to turn off their brains because they worry about potential problems


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I do understand that, but it's been easier, for me, to avoid the possible problem from the get go. 
I'll never tell someone his/her methods don't work. It might just be that I'm to lazy to do it their way. :lol: :lol: :wink:


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

So, rather than putting the food under the article in the beginning, as Mr. Winkler suggests, you just skip to handing him the food reward? What if the dog stands up as you're handing him the reward?


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Kristen Cabe said:


> So, rather than putting the food under the article in the beginning, as Mr. Winkler suggests, you just skip to handing him the food reward? What if the dog stands up as you're handing him the reward?


Then you haven't taught the down correctly. Sit, down, stand. ANY command is to be followed until the dog gets another command. In teaching the down on the article, the dog will stay down while I walk up and give ther reward. If the dog breaks, it's AHHHH! and the reward goes away. 
Breaking a command is about not understanding, or anticipation. NOT willfully refusing. AKC uses a stay command. Schutzhund doesn't. IMHO, there is no need to give the dog a stay if you just gave it a down command. I train in both and use both for the formality in AKC but it's not needed if the dog understands that down means down. NOT till you feel like moving. In AKC, my stay command is just a repeating of the sit or down command. No rules say you MUST use the word stay. 
That's the reason I think the down, the down on an article, and tracking should be taught completely indipendent of one another. I prefer to break down any training into as many parts as possible. Once they are all solid, they go together quite easily. 
Here's an example for AKC CDX competition. 
The drop on recall. The recall and the drop are TOTALLY separate. A club member was having trouble with his recall slowing waaay down. He was dropping the dog with almost every recall. His dog was anticipating the drop, because he KNEW it was comming. I had never put the two together, but both the drop and the recall are rock solid on my dog. I brought him on the field and from the full length of the field, I did a recall. At the halfway point I gave a "platz"! Thunder dropped like a rock. He had NEVER had these two exercises put together, yet it was perfect IMHO  . I may put those two exercises together once or twice, the week before I go into the Open ring. 
Same with the send out in Schutzhund. Thunder gets a Platz on the end of the send out ONCE in 20-25-30 sendouts.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Bravo, Bob well said! I teach everything as seperate exercizes, too.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Bob & Sarah, thanks for the advise! I've gone back & am doing more scent pads. Also, Arkane did some nice little tracks today, I've started doing some real gentle serpentines. He settled in & tracked beautifully today. I also spoke with Dean who told me to try two leashes (one under each front leg). This is a good thing!


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

Another question: When first starting, does it matter if it's wet or dry??


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

If you mean a little rain, you can track in a little rain!


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

Yeah, I meant whether or not it would matter if the ground/grass was wet or dry.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

I'm in So Calif, where it gets real hot real early, so for me, it's important to track at dawn when the grass is still a little wet from the dew. Holds in the scent better, & you can see your footsteps a little!
Sue


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Wet or dry doesn't matter. Yur still disturbing the ground when you walk on it. 
As Susan said, the morning dew is a big help. Also, as the sun comes up in the morning, the scent rises a bit off of the track. 
In Schutzhund tracking is the first thing in the day. Often early. For sport, or working dogs, this is the best time to work on tracking/trailing. JMHO!
Wether you train for sport or serious scent work you need to train under every condition you can imagine. You never know what the trial conditions or the search conditions will be.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Bob you are a great explainer!


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Just remember! What I, or anyone else describes in their training methods, isn't gospel. 
That's what this forum is all about! :wink:


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

I think I already know the answer to this one, but do you age the 'track' (square) at all when just beginning, or do you do the square and immediately bring the dog to it?


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

<<<<What I, or anyone else describes in their training methods, isn't gospel.>>>>

Bob, that may well be true, but you've given some excellant advice and descriptions. 

DFrost


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Susan and David, thanks for the compliments. 
Kristen, with a new pup, I age the box 10-15 mins initially. The main reason is I don't want a lot of scent hanging in the air. Only from the box. Not having a dog's nose, I have no idea if my thoughts hold any water though.  :wink:


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