# attention heeling with distraction



## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Al posted this vid of Bart and co on another thread. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cxM-J..._order&list=UL

This got me to thinking...

*What steps do you personally take *to work up to this level of distraction with your heeling? How long does it take you to work up to this level of distraction?

When do you layer compulsion over? (if at all Bob). At what point in training? What kind of compulsion do you use?

Just wondering how different handlers/trainers go about it.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Jennifer Coulter said:


> Al posted this vid of Bart and co on another thread.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cxM-J..._order&list=UL
> 
> ...


An e collar in the hands of an expert like Bart can produce amazing results


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## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

Linky no worky. Timeline typically goes something like this,

1. Puppy foundation work (3-6 months) mostly with food lure using walls/fences etc
2. Extending # of steps (6 months) toy reward and or food (fading reward so it is no longer visible)
3. Finishes, turns (left, right, about) changes of pace (6 months)
4. Really extending steps, mixing changes of pace etc (6 months)
5. Introducing obedience for bites (few sessions)
6. Corrections (type and duration depends on dog's temperament)


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Faisal Khan said:


> Linky no worky. Timeline typically goes something like this,
> 
> 1. Puppy foundation work (3-6 months) mostly with food lure using walls/fences etc
> 2. Extending # of steps (6 months) toy reward and or food (fading reward so it is no longer visible)
> ...


Thanks Faisal. So are you introducing the helper as a hight value distraction at step 5 then? (likely you worked lesser distractions before then?) Dog learns that attention heeling earns a bite in your method?


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Thomas Barriano said:


> An e collar in the hands of an expert like Bart can produce amazing results



Super helpful Thomas. What kind of results does the e-collar produce in your hands?


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Faisal Khan said:


> Linky no worky.


Should work now:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cxM-JDT2Nfo&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Jennifer Coulter said:


> Super helpful Thomas. What kind of results does the e-collar produce in your hands?


Do I detect a note of sarcasm? ;-)
I use an e collar on low levels as a long leash to reach out and touch my dogs to remind them and to proof exercises usually taught with OC methods. I don't have the skills or touch to "teach" with an e-collar


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

If you dont have a decoy...you could use the highest value reward and let the dog see you place it on the field. Do your heeling, change of positions or any other exercise and release the dog for the reward. If the dog loses focus...you correct enough to get focus. I use this with a ball, sleeve, empty suit and with a decoy. My correction tool of choice is a sjambok.


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## Geoff Empey (Jan 8, 2008)

will fernandez said:


> My correction tool of choice is a sjambok.


I use a riding crop, I like Thomas am not competent or comfortable in the use of an e-collar to teach my dog. So the riding crop is the extension of my hand. It's not to inflict pain on the dog but more to physically touch the dog. Field hunting dogs have been using heeling sticks for years which is where I got the idea from. It works equally well for forging and lagging. 

It all about the eye and body contact for me for heeling under distraction. Same thing use a reward of particular high value and reward for eye contact if they look away touch them on the chest or under the chin with the crop to get and maintain attention and during training use your voice to reinforce the eye contact and positioning. Just saying "good boy/girl" will get the dog's attention for eye and body contact too. Then you can randomly put in the high value reward a decoy, the sheep a ball on the field etc etc.


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## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

Jennifer Coulter said:


> Thanks Faisal. So are you introducing the helper as a hight value distraction at step 5 then? (likely you worked lesser distractions before then?) Dog learns that attention heeling earns a bite in your method?


Welcome Jennifer. Yes, the OB for bites is the ultimate proofing for the desired behavior as well as the ultimate correction of undesired behavior. The helper is the highest distraction for these dogs as well as the highest possible reward. Dog is only released for a bite for seriously good positioning during heeling, starting with just a look (focus) from basic position at the fuss command, then 1-2 steps of motion, building up to turns and extended heeling (corrections are also used here). The reward moment is marked by a spotter using a clicker, dog hears the click and goes for the bite. Dogs that are not used to clicker, the clicker informs the handler that reward has been earned and the handler gives the bite command, verbal markers can also be used. 

Timing of the reward is KEY, steps 2-6 are executed best when a spotter is present. The spotter uses the clicker or verbal marker for release/reward timing and the electric if needed for correction (correction can also come physically from handler at the spotters call) and are typically introduced during step 3 timeframe. Needless to say the spotter needs to be highly experienced. Without spotter and helpers the time span is extended considerably and the quality of the finished product is lower.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: When do you layer compulsion over?

That is the gayest thing I have ever heard. Layer ? Compulsion is an interruption of a behavior, not a mind bending nightmare that creates a dog that slinks along.

Is your foundation strong ? How far can you heel right now ?


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: When do you layer compulsion over?
> 
> That is the gayest thing I have ever heard. Layer ? Compulsion is an interruption of a behavior, not a mind bending nightmare that creates a dog that slinks along.
> 
> Is your foundation strong ? How far can you heel right now ?


Whatevs...just semantics dude. "When in the process do you start using corrections" would have been just fine for me too. I know when "I" want to start using corrections...I was curious about others methods, I am kinda training on my own here for the most part...and mostly in ski boots LOL. Speaking of semantics I do not understand what you are saying half the time so we are even. 

I thought my foundation was pretty decent, not sch super flashy, but that is not my goal. That said I have come to believe that my dog doesn't really understand the focus independently from the position. So with no or low level distractions, everything looks good can heel with attention a long way with turns and so on, but with high level distraction, she thinks that she is okay to just have the position while focusing elsewhere. I am not really at a point where I can correct for attention, because I don't think it is a separate criteria in her head. 

SOOO, I have gone back to doing things like Will was talking about, because she wants to look at the toy on the ground even. Interestingly if the toy is on me, even if it is in my left hand, left of her head, she knows to look at me, but put the toy on the ground and she wants to look at it. I have gone ALLL the way back to just having her sit at heel and wait for her to focus on me with the toy on the ground. Mark and release to toy.

So the short answer would have been that my foundation is actually on the shitty side.


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Faisal Khan said:


> Welcome Jennifer. Yes, the OB for bites is the ultimate proofing for the desired behavior as well as the ultimate correction of undesired behavior. The helper is the highest distraction for these dogs as well as the highest possible reward. Dog is only released for a bite for seriously good positioning during heeling, starting with just a look (focus) from basic position at the fuss command, then 1-2 steps of motion, building up to turns and extended heeling (corrections are also used here). The reward moment is marked by a spotter using a clicker, dog hears the click and goes for the bite. Dogs that are not used to clicker, the clicker informs the handler that reward has been earned and the handler gives the bite command, verbal markers can also be used.
> 
> Timing of the reward is KEY, steps 2-6 are executed best when a spotter is present. The spotter uses the clicker or verbal marker for release/reward timing and the electric if needed for correction (correction can also come physically from handler at the spotters call) and are typically introduced during step 3 timeframe. Needless to say the spotter needs to be highly experienced. Without spotter and helpers the time span is extended considerably and the quality of the finished product is lower.



Thanks for the explanation of the use of the spotter!


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

How did you start the focus, and when did you start to "layer" in the tug ? HA HA

How long could she hold focus for food ?


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Also, start with the dog standing next to you, not sitting. Less confusing for them and the site picture, will be a lot more like what they will see when heeling. (what they see)


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> How did you start the focus, and when did you start to "layer" in the tug ? HA HA
> 
> How long could she hold focus for food ?


Pretty much the M.E. way. A pretty long time.

Part of the issue with her wanting to focus on the tug on the ground is that I effed around with DOH backwards heeling stuff with her looking at the toy and releasing her to the toy, BEFORE I ever tried heeling for attention with the toy on the ground. Her attention heeling without at toy on the ground and few distractions was good though.


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

To start are you putting the toy behind her? Might get you the focus faster then move it in front or just beside her.


If you go backwards another step you can tell her " watch" when she is staring at the toy and release. Then tell her look, wait her out and release when the focus is on you.


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

will fernandez said:


> If you go backwards another step you can tell her " watch" when she is staring at the toy and release. Then tell her look, wait her out and release when the focus is on you.


Good one. Thanks.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Jennifer Coulter said:


> Al posted this vid of Bart and co on another thread.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cxM-J..._order&list=UL
> 
> ...



With Thunder it's never been necessary to use more then a "AHHH" or "Leave it". 
With Trooper I haven't been as consistent in his training and his attention span sucks. Nothing that a change of direction doesn't take care of. Simple pressure on his lead at that direction change is all he needs.
The strange thing is that Thunder is a much harder dog. Trooper is a lovable clown that is softer then any dog I've ever owned. 
The idea behind no compulsion is to be more interesting then the world around you. Not always possible with all dogs. 
Thunder looks at distractions as some sort of game I play to see if he gets distracted. He doesn't!
Trooper looks at distractions as just that...distractions. He has excellent recovery to get right back in the game when I correct him. I have no doubt I could stop him all together but I'm not as anal as I used to be. :lol:
The simplest thing I can say is the reward or the correction has to be enough to make the dog pay more attention.
Are you looking to compete? If the dog has good solid position you shouldn't loose points from an occasional glance away. 
The older I get the less important that total focus on me seems to be.
I totally believe that your connection with the dog is half the battle! Not just as dog and master but as a team. This is where I've always said that a good truck dog is more important (to me) then a good competition dog that has no manners in the real world.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

will fernandez said:


> To start are you putting the toy behind her? Might get you the focus faster then move it in front or just beside her.
> 
> 
> If you go backwards another step you can tell her " watch" when she is staring at the toy and release. Then tell her look, wait her out and release when the focus is on you.



With Thunder I also put the tug on the ground and heel all around and over it. If he looks at the tug, we start over with a "Nope". 

Another thought Jennifer. You may be rewarding at the same point (to predictable) in your heeling without being aware of it. People fall into that quite easily and dogs pick up on it quickly. 
Make the reward more random. sometimes after only one or two steps. Sometimes for only a good focus before you begin the heeling.
Random, random, random!


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## Al Curbow (Mar 27, 2006)

Here's how I do it , KC was 5 months old in this, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2K-JGufWHYY


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Al Curbow said:


> Here's how I do it , KC was 5 months old in this, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2K-JGufWHYY



Very similar to what I do with Trooper. A simple touch gets his attention.


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Al Curbow said:


> Here's how I do it , KC was 5 months old in this, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2K-JGufWHYY


Thanks Al.

This is the most recent vid clip of heeling that I have. It is a few months old now. It does not contain any major distractions though.
http://s860.photobucket.com/albums/ab166/pikamal/?action=view&current=IMG_0100.mp4


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Put that ball on a string on the ground. She's going to stare at it but the split second she makes eye contact, mark and reward. Don't try for extended eye contact till she's understanding it and you'll be heeling her right by the "reward" without problems. 
With marker training it doesn't matter how much distraction is created. Once she figures out eye contact gets the reward she'll come along just fine.


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## Sabine Eggert (Apr 1, 2011)

Oh yes, I remember it well. I was there at Hassleben when Bart and Frank gave that little presentation and it was awesome! And a lot of fun, too.

Of course they both use E-collars but those guys really know how to do that and they spend months and months on preparing the dog for it and on conditioning the signals.
The video shows superior level of training - don't try this at home! Bart explains and demonstrates in his seminars how he prepares the dog for this. He uses food at puppy stage and switches to toys - several ones in turn so if the dog for some reason starts to dislike one of them you have an alternative.

He starts with low level distraction just in the heeling position without moving. Someone can walk around dog and handler clapping hands, if the dog loses focus he gets small corrections on the prong collar until he regains focus, then release. If that works well, use a toy, put it on the ground. If that works, start heeling work in motion. We also condition a command (a la Bart and team) to focus the toy or later, the helper, ("Helfer"), which we use in bitework to tell the dog to turn attention to the decoy, we can switch between "Fuss" (dog's focus on handler) and "Helfer" (dog's focus on toy or decoy).

Later on we do heeling work with the toy held in left hand at the left side of the dog's head, release if focus is on handler. Bart also took a ball on a rope and let it hang over his shoulder down his back (Heuwinkl now introduced the magnetic ball which you just stick to the outside of your vest, a magnet on the inside holds it in place) or, later on, Bart tied the ball to Thor's collar which was very hard for Thor because the ball bounced up and down while was moving. Of course Bart's dog knows very well that he doesn't have a chance to get the reward without doing the job first.

If all that works well we introduce the decoy, same thing, heeling work with decoy in the middle who can add distraction by yelling at the dog or moving around (like Jogi and his team showed during their demonstration in Cologne in 2008.

The idea is to raise distraction slowly and only if the dog is reliable with lower levels.

Regards
Sabine


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Bob Scott said:


> Put that ball on a string on the ground. She's going to stare at it but the split second she makes eye contact, mark and reward. Don't try for extended eye contact till she's understanding it and you'll be heeling her right by the "reward" without problems.
> With marker training it doesn't matter how much distraction is created. Once she figures out eye contact gets the reward she'll come along just fine.


Yes, doing that now.


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## Marta Wajngarten (Jul 30, 2006)

will fernandez said:


> To start are you putting the toy behind her? Might get you the focus faster then move it in front or just beside her.
> 
> 
> If you go backwards another step you can tell her " watch" when she is staring at the toy and release. Then tell her look, wait her out and release when the focus is on you.



I don't put the eye contact on a command. If I ever need to call their attention that's what their name is for. I simply never release until I have eye contact and both my dogs know if they want any thing they have to offer eye contact first then wait for their release. That helps with the focused heeling as well.


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## fiona gilmore (Jun 5, 2009)

I have just started to do heeling around a ball with my dog as I couldn't even get him to tear his eyes away from the helper during bitework let alone heel! 

After working on training with the ball, he will now heel away from the helper (albeit barking his head off) but we still need to work on it.

http://s778.photobucket.com/albums/yy65/shilah_album/vid/?action=view&current=003.mp4


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Jennifer Coulter said:


> I thought my foundation was pretty decent, not sch super flashy, but that is not my goal. That said I have come to believe that my dog doesn't really understand the focus independently from the position. So with no or low level distractions, everything looks good can heel with attention a long way with turns and so on, but with high level distraction, she thinks that she is okay to just have the position while focusing elsewhere. I am not really at a point where I can correct for attention, because I don't think it is a separate criteria in her head.


I teach focus as it's own exercise/command. I start with the dog sitting in front of me, then after it's solid there I pair it with heel position. This allows me to do two things. First, it lets me tell the dog specifically what they are doing wrong in the heeling, is it lack of focus, or are they out of position in relationship to my leg. It also allows me to tell them to focus on me during the long down, vs looking all over the place. Or during positions. Or any other time I want them looking at me, wherever they are. 

I would recommend going back and teaching the focus as a separate criteria. Have her in front of you and work it there. Then 5 feet away from you. Or at an angle to you, etc. Then pair it with the heel position.


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