# What happens if you don't socialize ?



## isaac lintz

I am new to Schutzhund training and have a lot of questions? I will be getting a puppy within the next couple months and have been doing a lot of research and visiting to clubs. Sorry if I sounds dumb or not knowledgeable. 

I have heard of a lot of owners in Schutzhund, while training their Schutzhund pup, want their dogs not to be socialized too much. Only wanting the dog to care about them and wanting their dog to almost portray the "hard" image and not allow strangers to walk up to them without barking and letting them know who's boss.

Is that ok? How do you teach this while raising? Is that in the pedigree and will come out no matter what after time?

How do you create a fair balance of socialization in your Schutzhund pup foundation, too not make the puppy to "doggy" or too "trusting of strangers"?

Also when would you teach obedience when you get a brand new puppy and how extensive should the obedience be?

I know for the first year you teach the puppy to be as confident as possible, but what are some key aspects to teach your Schutzhund pup for the foundation year (the first year)??

Please help me out and sorry again if I sound foolish. Looking forward to people's comments and suggestions!


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## Gillian Schuler

Don't apologise. I think it is admirable that you are going to clubs, becoming aware of the various dog handlers' preferences.

I took my pups everywhere in the first few weeks. Watched their reaction to various situations. I rode train and bus with them. Visited a heavily populated market, took them into Zürich at rush hour, carried them to the forest at 8 weeks (so thaey hadn't to walk to far and could save their energy for running around in the forest.) Hid from them, listened to their heartfelt yowling as they missed me. Checked how quickly they found me.

As they became stronger, climbed over tree trunks with them, dropped a tug (or similar) which I had played with him and "asked" him where it was - watched him run back to find it. Took them down to the river, etc.

OK, these outings made me enforce some rules, in which a long line dragging behind the pup made him stop when I trod on it and called him to me.

The more you spend time with your pup, the more you will emerge as the Top Dog. The handlers who isolate their pups from everyone and other dogs do not get a "hard" dog. The genes determine this.

I do not let my young dog (not pup) play with other dogs. I know a lot of people who think dogs should have other dogs as "playmates". Not I.

I am my dog's "universe" and up to now I have found that they prefer me to any other dog or person.

To achieve this, you just have to make yourself more interesting than anything else...


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## rick smith

good advice from Gillian

i am more concerned with what "you have heard" ??
when people say that to me (and it happens a LOT), i ask them to get specific and i rarely get a clear answer. usually it's more like "what they have imagined" rather than anything specific that was told to them 

not saying this applies to you but am curious what IPO clubs have given you this particular information


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## Khoi Pham

Everybody is different, for me, my dog is a protection dog first, sport second, so I socialized the heck out of him, I let people pet him, play with other dogs, I can take him anywhere without fear of him a liability, but with a clear head and clear training, he can be switch on in a split seconds when the situation called for. If you don't socialized your dog and if he is a defensive dog, he might be on the edge when you take him to strange places with strange people, anything could trigger him to bite and so you will have to be on the look out for him and at all time and can't even enjoy yourself, then one day you might not even take the dog with you because of that uneasy feeling and then what good of a protection dog is he if he is not around you, kind of like people put their protection dog in a crate in the house because the dog is not house trained.


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## rick smith

Khoi
getting off topic as usual, but ...

i agree, but you make it sound so simple.
Q1. how much is genetics and how much is "social training" ?
Q2. how come personal protection dog training never shows the details involved with the "social training" ? i see lots of "controlled bitework", in set up situations with hidden equip in a controlled environment, but never see these dogs out in a real world when they are social around kids who can pet them, etc

i like your definitions and agree social training is essential, but feel it takes a dog with strong genetics on BOTH sides and to me that is never stressed enough when discussing personal protection dogs. 
- i have never seen it explained or shown, in terms of evaluating and selecting a dog for personal protection except in very general terms


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## isaac lintz

When and what kind of obedience do I do with a brand new pup? 
When does it become serious obedience and fast obedience?

How do I print tracking? What is a scent box? How and what age do we start this?

Keep it coming! I really appreciate the comments and helpful advice.


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## leslie cassian

Find a club you like and join. Follow their advice about what to do with your puppy - what to train, how to train, when to train. If they are training, competing, and titling dogs, then they have an established method that works. 

Doing it by yourself or on the advice of the internet is going to get you in trouble if you are a new handler. Even working with a club, you will get it wrong, you will make mistakes, you will want a do-over, but you will learn how to do better next time. It's all part of the process of training, not just for the dog, but for you as a handler. Don't over think it and don't get so far ahead of yourself that you skip over the basics.


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## Kevin Cyr

isaac lintz said:


> I am new to Schutzhund training and have a lot of questions? I will be getting a puppy within the next couple months and have been doing a lot of research and visiting to clubs. Sorry if I sounds dumb or not knowledgeable.
> 
> I have heard of a lot of owners in Schutzhund, while training their Schutzhund pup, want their dogs not to be socialized too much. Only wanting the dog to care about them and wanting their dog to almost portray the "hard" image and not allow strangers to walk up to them without barking and letting them know who's boss.
> 
> Is that ok? How do you teach this while raising? Is that in the pedigree and will come out no matter what after time?
> 
> How do you create a fair balance of socialization in your Schutzhund pup foundation, too not make the puppy to "doggy" or too "trusting of strangers"?
> 
> Also when would you teach obedience when you get a brand new puppy and how extensive should the obedience be?
> 
> I know for the first year you teach the puppy to be as confident as possible, but what are some key aspects to teach your Schutzhund pup for the foundation year (the first year)??
> 
> Please help me out and sorry again if I sound foolish. Looking forward to people's comments and suggestions!


 
Sounds more like this description is conditioning to the field if you don't allow socialization. If you don't allow the dog to socialize to the world then you end up with a less than confident dog, sometimes nerve bag and a liability at times. Train everywhere let them experience everything, not just the field! Makes for a better dog all around. Protection dogs not socialized are all bark and less bite unless its a fear biter. Of course their are exceptions.


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## rick smith

Kevin is right when he says : "Sounds more like this description is conditioning to the field if you don't allow socialization. If you don't allow the dog to socialize to the world then you end up with a less than confident dog, sometimes nerve bag and a liability at times"

but i will also add you can also end up with the same problems if you don't socialize correctly  

getting ready to start my own thread on this //lol//

people seem to think socializing is just "getting the dog out and exposing them"
...as if it has nothing to do with actual TRAINING

i've read many times about all the different types of "exposures" people show their dogs but they rarely mention any specific techniques they use while doing it

for me, it's as much a part of training as teaching basic OB. and many times it takes a higher skill level, both in terms of reading the dog and applying timing to the training

and i am not talking about toy poodles and face licking labs. i'm referring to socializing WORKING dogs, especially those who will be learning a bite sport or will be getting protection training


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## isaac lintz

So what is the proper way to socialize your Schutzhund pup?


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## eric squires

All good advice. First do not force your pup on people or people on your pup. same goes with other dogs. Food/treats is a great way to introduce the pup to people. Always introduce the pup to dogs that are good or neutral with other dogs. I always let the pup let me know when it is comfortable with the situation. You have to learn to read the pup.


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## Bob Scott

What happens if you don't socialize?

It depends on the genetics of the dog. Some don't skip a beat. Others may fold.

To me, having a socialized dog doesn't mean the dog has to be friendly to people outside the family or other dogs.

All it means is my dogs have to be neutral to anyone, anything and everything I may expose them to. 
In other words, no reaction without a damn good reason.

Someone that wants/needs a dog that barks and snarls at anyone that approaches them has either an out of control dog or personal image issues. 

Sport or PPD, there is no reason the dog can't be "social" in public.


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## Kevin Cyr

isaac lintz said:


> So what is the proper way to socialize your Schutzhund pup?


 
Remember its a pup FIRST, Schutzund is the Sport he will be participating in.


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## rick smith

what other breeds have you owned ?
how did you socialize them ? 
how did the clubs you visited answer these questions ?

you seem to think a "SchH puppy" is a different type of dog that needs a totally different kind of training foundation than other dogs

in my opinion they don't breed "SchH puppies", "agility puppies", "search puppies", "dock diving puppies", "working puppies", or pet puppies ... regardless of what the momma and poppa bring genetic wise

- the handle in front of the name comes from the efforts of the owner IF the dog has the basic DNA for the target job

until you have raised a few and titled a lot, i doubt if you could recognize the potential in a pup to be successful in IPO
- just because your SchH puppy will have a bunch of titles in its bloodlines does not guarantee you any success in adding more with your dog

regardless
- i think the answers to most of your questions would be the same for most any dog that will be required to do more than just wag their tails, beg for their dinner and lick their owner

- so unless this is your first dog, i'm surprised you don't already know some of these answers 

- if you can relate your questions to dogs you've had in the past, the questions would make more sense to me and be easier to answer

i hope this post isn't too blunt. i'm not trying to give you a sarcastic opinion. i just don't get where you're coming from and so far i feel like you're not just new to the sport of SchH, but new to working dogs in general.
yes // no ??

if the answer is yes, i would suggest getting a nice high drive dog and teaching it on and off lead OB with some tug/wedge work to develop some grip skills. aim HIGH for both; don't just settle for "fun pet play" stuff.

- get that dog polished and ROCK solid in the two skill sets, and THEN search for a good breeder to find you an IPO puppy you can compete with and title
- but don't dump the first dog ... train it in IPO too and it should fit in easily with any decent club

if the answer is no....give some background please


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## Kevin Cyr

rick smith said:


> what other breeds have you owned ?
> how did you socialize them ?
> how did the clubs you visited answer these questions ?
> 
> you seem to think a "SchH puppy" is a different type of dog that needs a totally different kind of training foundation than other dogs
> 
> in my opinion they don't breed "SchH puppies", "agility puppies", "search puppies", "dock diving puppies", "working puppies", or pet puppies ... regardless of what the momma and poppa bring genetic wise
> 
> - the handle in front of the name comes from the efforts of the owner IF the dog has the basic DNA for the target job
> 
> until you have raised a few and titled a lot, i doubt if you could recognize the potential in a pup to be successful in IPO
> - just because your SchH puppy will have a bunch of titles in its bloodlines does not guarantee you any success in adding more with your dog
> 
> regardless
> - i think the answers to most of your questions would be the same for most any dog that will be required to do more than just wag their tails, beg for their dinner and lick their owner
> 
> - so unless this is your first dog, i'm surprised you don't already know some of these answers
> 
> - if you can relate your questions to dogs you've had in the past, the questions would make more sense to me and be easier to answer
> 
> i hope this post isn't too blunt. i'm not trying to give you a sarcastic opinion. i just don't get where you're coming from and so far i feel like you're not just new to the sport of SchH, but new to working dogs in general.
> yes // no ??
> 
> if the answer is yes, i would suggest getting a nice high drive dog and teaching it on and off lead OB with some tug/wedge work to develop some grip skills. aim HIGH for both; don't just settle for "fun pet play" stuff.
> 
> - get that dog polished and ROCK solid in the two skill sets, and THEN search for a good breeder to find you an IPO puppy you can compete with and title
> - but don't dump the first dog ... train it in IPO too and it should fit in easily with any decent club
> 
> if the answer is no....give some background please


Good Post Rick, you obvioulsy have more time. Sometimes I just shake my head and way WTF?


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