# difference between PPD and SD



## kenneth roth (Jul 29, 2010)

whats the difference between personal protection trained dogs and securty trained dogs?

they have difern't drives or needs?.


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

kenneth roth said:


> whats the difference between personal protection trained dogs and securty trained dogs?
> 
> they have difern't drives or needs?.


I still have never heard of what a PPD dog does for that matter so I couldn't compare?


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## kenneth roth (Jul 29, 2010)

i couldn't find much about this on google typed in securty dog training it came up with PPD :roll:

think the PPD dog is trained more for protection SC is trained for area guarding ,object guard , building guarding,


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

kenneth roth said:


> i couldn't find much about this on google typed in securty dog training it came up with PPD :roll:
> 
> think the PPD dog is trained more for protection SC is trained for area guarding ,object guard , building guarding,


 
what does a PPD protect and how? What are the standards/guidelines? A security dog is a fear biter/barker, all show in my eyes.


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## kenneth roth (Jul 29, 2010)

i'm asking you guys #-o


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

kenneth roth said:


> i'm asking you guys #-o


PPD = bark/alert on command with super obedience!

SD = crazy out of control junk yard dog!


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## kenneth roth (Jul 29, 2010)

minght be getting my bro's blue nose and red nose pitbulls next month he cant have them anymore they'er moving into an apartment


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## Brian McQuain (Oct 21, 2009)

Do you belong to any protection sport club?


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## FRANKIE COWEN (Jun 3, 2008)

are u asking about ppd vs security or ppd vs gaurd dog big difference between security dog and gaurd dog, gaurd dogs watch property and are unmannded , security dog and are with handler, and depends on were the security dog is employed there requirments, not many security dogs being utilzed in usa , eroupe used to be big with this espicclly france, now its still there just not as big, 
some security dogs must know building search area search being able to defend a person when dirrected other than his handler, also alot depends on the state some states like new england no way they have security dogs to much lawsuits, florida security dogs employed by a few good companies, gs4 uses security dogs alot, they may be used to patrol a community or a event, sometime security dogs are used at sporting events, it all depends who is hiring and what they are looking to hire for, , ppd protect there handler ( personal protection dog)


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## FRANKIE COWEN (Jun 3, 2008)

lot of people getting mixed up between security dogs and gaurd dogs, gaurd dogs are un social fear based dogs to protect piece of enclosed propery when its closed for businees,, security dog is a hired team that provides many things , 

frankie


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## FRANKIE COWEN (Jun 3, 2008)

this is not real common in lot of states florida is good for secuity dogs and personal protection dogs, in florida a dog may bite with out animal control issues if the bite to legimtitally protect you or your home or were hired as a security dog with a proper security license i love florida we even got the castle law, so we have abilty to use security dogs unlike other states,, also alot of the prisons were being run privatly , so they also hired alot of private companies to do there prisoner transport actually my last dutchie was sold to do that, he would follow the prisoner van, and if there was a escape in route , they let the dog do what needed to be done, this is not common place to have prisons privatly run , but florida loves to spend money and not run things if they can pay someone else to do it .. so security dogs least in florida have many uses, even private detection for people entering some communites if hired to do so, all gaurd dogs (different from security dogs) must be licensed microchip and listed with animal care and control as a gaurd dog, cali at one point ran alot of private manned security dogs also at one point, ppd dogs protect there handler not othes


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

FRANKIE COWEN said:


> lot of people getting mixed up between security dogs and gaurd dogs, gaurd dogs are un social fear based dogs to protect piece of enclosed propery when its closed for businees,, security dog is a hired team that provides many things ,
> 
> frankie


not all guard dogs are fearful dogs, they certainly should not be social though...


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## FRANKIE COWEN (Jun 3, 2008)

yes ur correct joby i was generalizing. but they must carry some fear to give the impression they will come to mess u up, and the fear is one that can come out with aggression to a a untrained eye, some times a over confident dog in a gaurd dog sitution is not the best, "ok i will just wait for you to come in then walk up calm and confident and bite ya," vs a fearfull gaurd dog wooof woof woof teath go away ill kill you go away, this is again generalizing, not all but overall key to gaurd dogs is keep the unwanted out, not hope they get in and get a bite, its more of a deterent then anything, Thats the reason for gaurd dogs keep the unwanted out in the first place, One of the best deterents behind a fence is a fear full dog, you know joby like in a street fight the one who makes the most noise usaully isnt the best fighter . the one who is calm confident lets go out back in 15 minutes, 9 times out of ten is the better fighter he has the confidence in his own abilty, if im trying to scare people away from my locked at night facity, who is the one to keep most away , the noisy one also the noisy fearfull (to a point ) aggressive dog will keep the kids out who were just being kids and climb tthe fence but really werent trying to do harm , and i dont want some young kid being a kid getting bit , so if i have my confident dog in the yard not making a huge scene those kids may be like that dog isnt even being me i dare u to go in, a noisy teeth showing one will keep that kid out and save him from a bite over kids being kids, 
this is a generaltion cause i had some good dogs have been extremmly confident and excellent gaurd dogs when i was younger and spent many nights on my buddy truck repair yard, 

ALL THIS IS MY PERSONAL OPINION AND SOME MAY HAVE DIFFERENT OPINIONS AND NO ONES IS MORE CORRECT THEN OTHERS, ITS JUST PERSONAL VIEWS AND OPINIONS

FRANKIE


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## FRANKIE COWEN (Jun 3, 2008)

When i generilize im saying more often than not, a overall not everyone or everytime.


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## FRANKIE COWEN (Jun 3, 2008)

and for the record , i am NOT a fan of gaurd dog companies, i have heard way to many horrible things happen to gaurd dogs over the years when people really wanted to get into a place, dogs shot set on fire posioned i really dont like gaurd dog services, i rather see the company needing to protect there place hire a manned k9 team, least some one can protect the dog from situtions like these,


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## Derek Milliken (Apr 19, 2009)

To the OP, 
If you're getting someone elses dogs, already trained, why not ask him what they can do/are trained for? Maybe even go watch a few training sessions?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

FRANKIE COWEN said:


> yes ur correct joby i was generalizing. but they must carry some fear to give the impression they will come to mess u up, and the fear is one that can come out with aggression to a a untrained eye, some times a over confident dog in a gaurd dog sitution is not the best, "ok i will just wait for you to come in then walk up calm and confident and bite ya," vs a fearfull gaurd dog wooof woof woof teath go away ill kill you go away, this is again generalizing, not all but overall key to gaurd dogs is keep the unwanted out, not hope they get in and get a bite, its more of a deterent then anything, Thats the reason for gaurd dogs keep the unwanted out in the first place, One of the best deterents behind a fence is a fear full dog, you know joby like in a street fight the one who makes the most noise usaully isnt the best fighter . the one who is calm confident lets go out back in 15 minutes, 9 times out of ten is the better fighter he has the confidence in his own abilty, if im trying to scare people away from my locked at night facity, who is the one to keep most away , the noisy one also the noisy fearfull (to a point ) aggressive dog will keep the kids out who were just being kids and climb tthe fence but really werent trying to do harm , and i dont want some young kid being a kid getting bit , so if i have my confident dog in the yard not making a huge scene those kids may be like that dog isnt even being me i dare u to go in, a noisy teeth showing one will keep that kid out and save him from a bite over kids being kids,
> this is a generaltion cause i had some good dogs have been extremmly confident and excellent gaurd dogs when i was younger and spent many nights on my buddy truck repair yard,
> 
> ALL THIS IS MY PERSONAL OPINION AND SOME MAY HAVE DIFFERENT OPINIONS AND NO ONES IS MORE CORRECT THEN OTHERS, ITS JUST PERSONAL VIEWS AND OPINIONS
> ...


Just pointing that out... MOST of them are fearful...not all. and they are alot cheaper and easier to find (fearful dogs)

a territorial dog that will show aggression to intruders is not in my mind necessarily a weaker, or fearful dog, or un-confident dog automatically..he is territorial....but you get what I mean...

it is a tricky legal business for sure...I would not want to own a GD business.

I did some work for a guy who trained his guard dogs to bite, he also trained them to wait until the people were inside on the property...the thugs in Chicago learned that you can wait for the dog to come to the fence and then throw gas on him and start him on fire...

here it is much different than some other places and cultures...manned security is always better...dogs are just cheaper..


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## FRANKIE COWEN (Jun 3, 2008)

i agree with ur last post joby..


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> Just pointing that out... MOST of them are fearful...not all. and they are alot cheaper and easier to find (fearful dogs)
> 
> a territorial dog that will show aggression to intruders is not in my mind necessarily a weaker, or fearful dog, or un-confident dog automatically..he is territorial....but you get what I mean...
> 
> ...


Its really the perception of PP these days, its back yard bitework, no standard, different to everybody, dogs expected to do what? Legalities? It just isn't something that is looked at seriously. Most of that comes from the people who train in it, the majority are also selling these dogs (half ass trained) for 15K+. It just isn't respected and gives the whole PP a bad rap. JMO of course.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Jody Butler said:


> Its really the perception of PP these days, its back yard bitework, no standard, different to everybody, dogs expected to do what? Legalities? It just isn't something that is looked at seriously. Most of that comes from the people who train in it, the majority are also selling these dogs (half ass trained) for 15K+. It just isn't respected and gives the whole PP a bad rap. JMO of course.


I was referring to guard dogs. as in dogs leased out, or dogs meant to seriously guard something...in my posts. which also has a ton of variables...

I thought about jumping in on the whole PP thing, but decided not to...LOL...Most of my experience is in PP training. It is true there are no real standards...or expectations as a rule..it is more an individual thing. To me, most PP training is unorganized sport type stuff for the most part..some people train more seriously and do more things, and have high standards for their dogs, others don't...some just like to get out and work their dogs, but have no interest in sports, and call it PP training..which is the bulk of them...and a few are more serious..

I did 5 PP "competitions" (irregular sport) They were scenario based and scored for certain criteria..more as a test to see where the dogs were in their training, different situations/decoys. etc...a judged score on various things. I never really bought into the whole "realistic" aspect, but did try to come up with interesting scenarios. I have seen some very good dogs, with very good training and of course 100's of not so good dogs and not so good or bad training.

The most popular thing at the PP shows is the hardest hitting contests...takes almost no training 

I all reality a PP dog does not need to be sent offleash, or off of your property, or outside your home...and I am very suspect of most PP trainers.

doing sends down a field has nothing to do with PP to me in reality..but people sure like it...

I know several people that have dogs that were trained, that have done their jobs (as they were defined by their owners and training) those people don't really care too much what anyone thought, they were just glad that their dogs did what they were supposed to do...

I rarely talk PP on here, I know it is not respected, and I know most people would not use a dog for protection. And also know much of what people call PP training is not really any form of "personal protection"
I wouldn't try to sell the idea on anyone...

I do know many dogs that are "PP" trained, that I would not want to be the guy that breaks into their house, or try to jump their owners...


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## FRANKIE COWEN (Jun 3, 2008)

i agree jody some are just bullshiting out there with ppd that woundnt do shit, but on the other hand some really have a need for ppd and if trained right they are great assest, what about that battered spouse who has a ex wife who going to come woop his ass, or the wife whos ex just got out of jail and is pissed, or the boss who has a ex employ hunting him. or your in a neighborhood and for what ever reason u can move but the neighborhood has gone down hill been few break ins or home invasion, or maybe the person whos job is to move jewelry or other itemson daily basis, yes 9 times out of 10 ur lucky nothing happens but what about the 10th time, so some do have a need and also , and some trainers do bullshit and some very good at there craft, 

frankie


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## kenneth roth (Jul 29, 2010)

Brian McQuain said:


> Do you belong to any protection sport club?


no not atm.



FRANKIE COWEN said:


> are u asking about ppd vs security or ppd vs gaurd dog big difference between security dog and gaurd dog, gaurd dogs watch property and are unmannded , security dog and are with handler, and depends on were the security dog is employed there requirments, not many security dogs being utilzed in usa , eroupe used to be big with this espicclly france, now its still there just not as big, some security dogs must know building search area search being able to defend a person when dirrected other than his handler, also alot depends on the state some states like new england no way they have security dogs to much lawsuit,
> 
> , florida security dogs employed by a few good companies, gs4 uses security dogs alot, they may be used to patrol a community or a event, sometime security dogs are used at sporting events, it all depends who is hiring and what they are looking to hire for, , ppd protect there handler ( personal protection dog)


ok now your making sence i been tryin to understand the difernt parts of security dogs,personal protection dogs and their training


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## kenneth roth (Jul 29, 2010)

Derek Milliken said:


> To the OP,
> If you're getting someone elses dogs, already trained, why not ask him what they can do/are trained for? Maybe even go watch a few training sessions?


i'm not getting a trained dog from some one, just curious what these two are ppd and sd and what rule they play in


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## kenneth roth (Jul 29, 2010)

what breeds are suited for PPd and SD?


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## Jehane Michael Le Grange (Feb 24, 2009)

In South Africa, our security dogs are regulated by the Private Security Industry Regulating Authority (PSIRA) and security dogs are very popula. The dogs work with a hanlder and there is basically 4 levels of proficiency when it comes to patrol work. It goes from a dog that has on lead obedience and will bark at a suspicious person and bite if the handler is attacked, right up to a dog that can be used for building and open area searches and apprehensions off lead. The highest level (DH4) is basically a police patrol dog in that it has to do distance control, off lead obedience, long apprehensions, building and area searches but without any tracking.

Due to the nature of crime here, security dogs are very very common and as such regulated by PSIRA unfortunately the training standards arent always as high as they should be. These dogs are also often used at events where crowd control is needed.

There is not real regulation here on Personal Protection dogs, however I have trained dogs for personal protection use when there handlers have requested it based on my own standards with in the law. basically personal protection dogs I train will bark at anyone approaching them while out on a walk (on lead) upon the handlers command, and then bite the person if he continues approaching and gets within a leads length. The handler is fully in control of this, obviously he has to instruct the person to stay back (if he feels threatened by the person), he can then command the dog to alert and hopefully deter the person without a bite, but if the person continues approaching, the dog will engage him on the arm and only release upon further command. I test this by setting a scenario and using a hidden sleeve without a presentation of the arm or any stimulation from the assailant. The dog must also be able to take pressure from the assailant as if it where an attack and this would be open to anything from stick blows to throwing water over the dog etc, etc. 

I also place a huge amount on emphasis on the dog being social and only alerting and biting once switched on by the handler or if the handler is attacked physically. I never allow fear biters who bite based on there own insecuritites to enter this sort of training. I take a socially confident dog and how him when he is allowed to protect his handler. this is further tested by doing exercises where the dog has to interact with a few people he has never met before while out on this walk and then onl after that, bark at the direction of the handler on someone else that approaches and bite someone that attacks. Never do I do apprehension training with these dogs since they are not patrol dogs. they are only there to bite in the immediate area of the handler and on lead. The handler also has to sign a fat indemnity document preventing liabilty resting on me prior to this training (since shit does happen)

Other clients have requested training at there house or in there vehicles to simulate home invasions and hijackings (extremely common in South Africa) in these instances the dogs are taught to bite anyone that enters without the handler being present. If the handler is present, he or she controls the situation and has to have adequate control over the dog in such a manner that he can allow people to enter and exit safely under his direction, from both the vehicle and house. This is legal in south africa provided that ALL perimeter exits of the property have correct signs, in at least 3 official languages as well as a picture indicating that entry is at own risk as there is a dog present. vehicles also have to indicate that there is a dog inside (indicated on all sides of the vehicle and have a picture present)

Through out all these exercises social behaviour from the dog is encouraged and the dog has to be stable. With regards to the bite work, all you expect from the dog is to bite as a deterent WHEN instructed to and release when instructed to and be social when the handler allows it. It takes consistent training to achieve this in a manner that wont have adverse effects or prevent the dog from going out in public. a personal protection dog is NOT a monster on a leash who bites anybody in range but it is also not a sports dog!


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## Jehane Michael Le Grange (Feb 24, 2009)

There is no limitation to what breed can be used, provided the dog is able to do the job! I have trained bullterriers, dalmatians, boerboels, mastiffs, rottweilers, ridge backs successfully. The most common dogs though are GSD's, Rottweilers and Boerboels for both personal protection and security applications. The odd malinois is also around.


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## Jehane Michael Le Grange (Feb 24, 2009)

From a personal protection side, people dont realise the amount of work it actually takes to have a reliable dog! 

I get so many people who tell me that they have dogs that will NATURALLY be protective and pick up on the handlers fear and bite the assailant WITHOUT ANY TRAINING](*,). I have met very very very few of these dogs! Almost all of them bark ferociously but dont engage at all or are easily scared away with abit of shouting, great watch dogs but NOT personal protection dogs. A few simple tests like me entering their yard at night or attacking them on a walk shows them this very very quickly.

The dogs that do bite naturally or without any training are often unsuitable as pets and are not safe to take out in public so in my opinion are not sociable and should rather be trained as to when to apply that aggression and be used as a security or police dog. its simply too dangerous to keep dogs like that in a family household where someone might get bitten.

Personal protection work is all about taking a stable, confident and adequately social dog and training it to a moderate proficiency of live biting under the guidance of the handler or in its own environement or territory.


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## kenneth roth (Jul 29, 2010)

i allways been interested in difern't things dogs are trained for like ppd or pd or sd like inside stories about how other people view difern't types of training.

ty for the long posts it was interesting and good learning tool.
could dogs from outside your country get trained for the DH 1-4?

is their a sport that trains dogs not to bite? like mixed sport has french ring sch ppd pd sd all in one like french ring does an excort, excorts the person out of the gate or front door or house car.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Jehane Michael,
Excellent posts!


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## Jehane Michael Le Grange (Feb 24, 2009)

I also forgot to mention, probably the most important aspect of personal protection training is the handler. A personal protection dog can so easily be a huge liability in the wrong hands. They are basically a less lethal version of a gun so if the handler happens to be someone on an ego trip (and unfortunately we get alot of that) who wants a menacing dog to show off with then I refuse to train them since it defeats the purpose.

The personal protection dog is there to protect the handler and give him an added oppertunity of survival in the face of an attack. this means it needs to be trained and used in conjunction with its handler or handlers and serves mainly as a deterent. With the dog alerting on command at an approaching suspect/assailant, it will hopefully be enough to scare the person off without having to engage BUT should the person continue approaching, the dog has to stand his man and prevent a possible attack and deal with any pressure. Its all about the on and off switch of the dog and reacting to the handler and situation and then COMPREHENSIVELY and REALISTICALLY train for those situations to ensure the best level of success. some points need to be made here:

PPD are NOT sports dogs they have to bite for real!!!! only some sports dogs can be trained to do PPD work or PSD work and this requires alot of extra training and ideally a slightly different approach to the initial bitework training. so when someone shows a video of a PPD biting on a jute trial sleeve, you are BS yourself. A FULLY concealed hidden sleeve needs to be used, and different jackets need to be used over it to prevent the dog recognising the equipment. the assailant and handler need to be in communication prior to the simulation via cell phone, to set it up so as not to 'q' the dog to anything, even the handler shouldnt know where the assailant is and is going to attack (double blind...LOL). Ideally the assailant will hide near to the handlers house while the handler commences a usual stroll out from his house and not from a training field (dogs know when they are at the training field there is going to be a bite). While out on the walk, the handler should at least interact with 2 strangers in a friendly manner along the route to ensure the dog is stable, and then along the last 'leg' of the route/walk be approached by the assailant. the assailant also has to remain very very passive the whole way during the approach of the handler and TOTALLY IGNORE the dog in the attack, his focus should be solely on the HANDLER and attacking him (without screaming!!!!) It must be a physical attack where the assailant attempts to steal the handlers bag or cell phone, etc and NOT present the hidden sleeve in a way that encourages the dog to bite, the dog has to engage the assailant OUT OF HIS OWN regardless of the assailants body position or tone of voice, etc. and finally, the dog should be proofed on this at night and by an assailant not known to him and deal with pressure once he has engaged the assailant. this is the only way that you get a realistic idea as to what the dog will most likely do when the handler is attacked.

When teaching a dog to 'bite live' for PSD, SD or PPD work its not so much about teaching him to bite, but more about teaching him to bite without being qued for it both by the helper or equipment. sooooo many people dont understand this aspect of real bitework.


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## Jehane Michael Le Grange (Feb 24, 2009)

kenneth roth;292448
could dogs from outside your country get trained for the DH 1-4?
is their a sport that trains dogs not to bite? like mixed sport has french ring sch ppd pd sd all in one like french ring does an excort said:


> Check out www.braveheart.co.za
> 
> all the specs for the DH1-4 are there. Any dog can be trained to those specs but the art is getting them to carry out those specs in a real situation. the DH levels are insisted upon by our private security industry regulating authority. Due to the size of our private security industry in SA this is a governmental body that legally controls all aspects of the private security industry. If you are interested check out www.psira.co.za and www.sasseta.org.za
> 
> ...


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## Vince Jones (Dec 6, 2009)

Years ago I had a friend who owned a Guard Dog business. He would put an ad in the local news papers looking for peoples "aggressive, unwanted dogs" He was always getrting responses from people who had dogs they could not manage and they wanted him to take them. My friend would then take these aggressive dogs and place them in a fenced in business or inside various factories/buildings. In the morning, an employee would puck the dog up, sometimes using a snare pole, and place the dog in a kennel. He made a boatload of money doing this with liittle overhead. For special clients, he would train a select dog(I always saw GSs) to patrol the interior of a bldg. and be silent. The vast majority of the dogs were what you would expect...shitters, BUT they had the perception of being a viscious dog to your average bad guy.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

View both as similar in that tracking is usually out of the question.

I see security dogs as a complex issue: are they working alone or with the handler...and securing what or whom?

PPDs are whatever you want them to be: barkers, quiet dogs, all show and no go, or not sleeve focused in protection. I have folks call and want one, but they don't want them to bite. So I ask, "So, would you own a firearm and NOT purchase ammo for just to show the threat?" The other question is, "Why would you want one with little kids running and yelling all day? Will the dog KNOW the difference in play and attack scenarios?"

Silence....:-$:-o


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

FRANKIE COWEN said:


> lot of people getting mixed up between security dogs and gaurd dogs, gaurd dogs are un social fear based dogs to protect piece of enclosed propery when its closed for businees,, security dog is a hired team that provides many things ,
> 
> frankie


guard dogs are unsocial and fear based? Really? Tell ya what Frankie you come on over to my place. I have 5 acres inside a fence. There is a guard dog here. I want you to check him and see if he is fearful 8)

My point is this: saying guard dogs in general are fear based anti social dogs is pure ignorance. It's that kind of misinformation that keeps people at large believing this nonsense.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Brian Anderson said:


> guard dogs are unsocial and fear based? Really? Tell ya what Frankie you come on over to my place. I have 5 acres inside a fence. There is a guard dog here. I want you to check him and see if he is fearful 8)
> 
> My point is this: saying guard dogs in general are fear based anti social dogs is pure ignorance. It's that kind of misinformation that keeps people at large believing this nonsense.


I agree with your post, but a LOT of "guard dogs" are fear based, and most are not very social...but that is not how I would describe my "ideal" guard dog, or one that I would keep on any of my property if I wanted a guard dog..the unsocial part is desirable..the fear-based, not desirable..


There are plenty of people that use fearbased dogs...


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