# Calm grips



## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

What does this actually say about a dog? A dog that goes into the bite, without hesitation, sets full bites, I would say is a dog that is confident.

This obviously is only for sports dogs. How my dog deters the intruder is not dependent of the grip. I don't care if he needles the guy.

How is it in Mondio for instance? How do you judge the dog's "courage" in setting a bite?


----------



## Matthew Grubb (Nov 16, 2007)

Gillian Schuler said:


> This obviously is only for sports dogs.


 
I want a deep, calm bite in PSD’s too…. It shows me the dog is confident in its abilities…the environment… and usually not in conflict with it’s handler.


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

So, then, tell me this, if the dog is not calm on the bite, then is he less confidant ???


----------



## Matthew Grubb (Nov 16, 2007)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> So, then, tell me this, if the dog is not calm on the bite, then is he less confidant ???


Jeff…. I think it depends on what’s going on during the training. A very confident dog can have a grip issue. Does that make it a bad dog?? No… but it’s something I like to look at. 

The grip issue can also be a symptom of a confidence issue. If I’m working a dog and am going to test environmental tolerance… poor grip will be one of if not the first sign of lack of confidence that your going to see. Good decoy… good training…. Good genetics… you get through it. 

I try not to generalize… that always gets you in trouble on this board.


----------



## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Calm grip can be affected by genetics, independent of nerves. I'm thinking of my little APBT that does have a decent calm grip, but is a soft woosy little girl.


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I think training effects everything. Look at the KNPV dogs, most do not seem to have a lack of confidence, but not always calm on the bite.

Me personally, have seen to many dogs that have extremely full mouths that are barely compressing the sleeve, and hang like dead fish on a stringer to give it a whole lot of consideration in breeding.


----------



## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

To comment on what Jeff just said about training, I'd like to reference the Giant Schnauzer in our club, Jake. He has confidence to the HILT, but because of the imprinting and early bite training that was done on him as a puppy, he jerks and torques on the bite like you wouldn't believe. He's taken helpers to the ground, injured wrists, and dislocated shoulders, and no helper that knows him wants to be doing the back half at a trial he is competing in. We don't do long bites, or even many escape bites) at training. Here are a couple of short videos that might show it, if you know what you're looking for:


----------



## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Up to a point I don't think fullness, or lack of, says that much about the dogs confidence, you have to look at more then just the mouth. 

I've seen dogs with extremely full grips who have 1 foot out the door the entire time, and under any real pressure are gone. You can't see that in how full the grip is, but you can see it in the rest of their body language. Tail carriage, what their eyes are doing, sounds they are making, swinging the body around, etc. I've even seen a couple of dogs taught a full/forward grip with electric. Think "forced retrieve" type training, except on the bite. They weren't super strong dogs, but there were worse things in life then hanging on to the decoy and countering when they had a chance, so they did. 

And I've seen the flip side, dogs who just bite what they can get, clamp and hang on, who are very confident dogs. But were not trained in a program that encouraged any sort of regrip or fullness, just a "clamp and endure" type of bite. You will see this in some French Ring dogs, depending on who did the foundation work. Someone else mentioned KNPV dogs. I am seeing more and more with nice grip technique, but 10 years ago most that I saw imported to the US were 3/4 type bites, and lots of thrashing around, even if the dog was super confident.

And then there are the dogs who once they have the satisfaction of something in their mouth, and are in a high state of drive, can endure just about anything with a nice calm grip, but take away their pacifier, take them out of drive, and you will see a real lack of confidence. 

When it comes to grip if I'm looking at only the grip, then I'm looking for changes in it under pressure. I'll bet on the confidence of a dog who comes in, gets a 3/4 grip, and maintains that grip the entire time regardless of what the decoy is doing over a dog who comes in with a full, stuffed to the tonsils grip, who starts to slip to 3/4, or chew, etc once the pressure starts. But the rest of the picture is just as, if not more, important IMO.


----------



## Lisa Geller (Mar 29, 2007)

I think it is a characteristic of breeding.

Who is to say which dog is braver, a frenchring dog with only a tooth holding, but accepting rapid fire stick hits -- or a dog that has a full grip on a decoy trained to catch in one postion? still taking perhaps a single tremendous stickhit?

I am, of course repeating what D. Piton said... hope I said it correctly.
afterwards he said a smart breeder would use the traits of both French & Belgium.

8-[


----------



## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I think training effects everything. Look at the KNPV dogs, most do not seem to have a lack of confidence, but not always calm on the bite.
> 
> Me personally, have seen to many dogs that have extremely full mouths that are barely compressing the sleeve, and hang like dead fish on a stringer to give it a whole lot of consideration in breeding.


We call those "Beute Lutscher" "Prey Suckers" They usually come from the show lines and sometimes get their rewards if the judge is a "grip" freak.

I forgot to add something at first. In Schutzhund, the dog is judged not only on the grips but on how he goes into the sleeve, whether he hesitates slightly or not and with how much force, i.e. uncompromising.

My nutty Briard was ok in IPO 1 but and was always over 90, due to the fact that he showed the willingness to fight and had plenty of drive. Afterwards, I was lucky to get 90 and if more, then the judge was being lenient which was daft. The dog was confident but very rarely showed calm grips although the force at which he attacked was there.


----------



## Phil Dodson (Apr 4, 2006)

> Good statement (Lisa)! I have worked and trained PSDs for quite awhile and have caught dogs on the street with several captures and fights and credited handler saves with very weak grips. A lot of it has to do in my personal opinion with the initial training. Then again I have caught some who are so locked in prey and no stick hit, gunfire or assault on him would tear him loose from the sleeve to regrip and continue the fight unless you knocked him out..


----------

