# Environmentally Unsound dogs



## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Gerry made a post on the 'ugly' thread having previously purchased/imported a 1.5 yr old gsd which was environmentally unsound and was labelled a piece of crap. I was kinda curious Gerry how long you had the dog before taking it out over a bridge over moving water.

Personally I have never ever had an environmentally unsound dog, but then bar a couple, all my dogs I have raised from pups.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

I think a lot of it is buying dogs based on video or breeder promises. Its a huge leap of faith. Nor do I believe, "you pay your money, you take your chances." These dogs aren't sold for the big bucks "as is." As the email indicated, the dog was old to be able to fulfill a specific purpose and if the breeder represents that he will replace, based on ability to work, then that's contractual obligation. If you buy one of these hot to trot dogs, then you probably need a written contract that addresses those replacement issues so you're not surprised when they say---ship the unsound one back at your cost and you have to pay the shipping costs of the replacement. I've not had an environmentally unsound dog either because before I leave the breeder premises, I test for all that. I joined this forum a couple of years ago to learn the current state of GSDs and breeder shop like a lot of people. Well first and foremost I learned, things/dogs have changed and you just don't leap into buying a puppy without really looking at what drives they are striding for and then there is the hip/elbow thing. Talk to enough breeders and you weed out those that consider you as a kennel clean out opportunity. I think the best case scenario is to find someone local enough that you can go see the puppies a couple of times before YOUR final pick and for you to test it or take someone along that is used to looking at puppies for what you want to do with it. Its worth it to wait. Don't get into a hurry.

Terrasita


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

maggie fraser said:


> I was kinda curious Gerry how long you had the dog before taking it out over a bridge over moving water.


I will always find it funny how the GSD people can pull this kinda lame shit from somewhere in outer space.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

What GSD people? Besides, I think Maggie is more of a terrier person. What I'm curious is whether it was just the bridge over moving water. No other clues he was a tad nervy?

T


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

My wife's eight year old Mal was enviormentally sound. a couple of weeks ago we were outside and lightning struck pretty close. Dog freaked and took off. It ended up being a pretty bad storm and we found him about half a mile down the road. Now he is a basket case during storms...have to crate him.

The dog is a pain in the ass. When ever I work a late shift and come home in the wee hours he will attack me as I walk into the bedroom. I have counseled him hundreds of times but have given up...I switched his name to Kato. I will not miss him when he is gone.

oh and I have never taken a training bite from him only real ones


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Its not from outer space its from a different thread. I was also wondering if the dog could have been bomb proof till he felt vibes from you on the bridge and fell apart? And I would like to see the video of you caring the dog of the bridge. :razz:
But in all seriousness I can see moving water under a see through grated bridge causing issues for some dogs.


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## Lynn Cheffins (Jul 11, 2006)

Well having bought dogs that people have described as "a little shy" or "aloof" that were total frigging spooks and you had to catch with a snare - it would seem that there is sometimes the buyers and sellers are using totally different dictionairies.... but me I don't consider blowing anal glands, rolling eyed terror as "a little shy"


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Chris McDonald said:


> Its not from outer space its from a different thread. I was also wondering if the dog could have been bomb proof till he felt vibes from you on the bridge and fell apart? And I would like to see the video of you caring the dog of the bridge. :razz:
> But in all seriousness I can see moving water under a see through grated bridge causing issues for some dogs.


Yeah, but walk him over a couple of times and he should get over it. 

T


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Yeah, but walk him over a couple of times and he should get over it.
> 
> T


Ah true…. You mean Gerry, right?


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

will fernandez said:


> The dog is a pain in the ass. When ever I work a late shift and come home in the wee hours he will attack me as I walk into the bedroom. I have counseled him hundreds of times but have given up...I switched his name to Kato. I will not miss him when he is gone.


:lol: That's damn funny.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Yeah, but walk him over a couple of times and he should get over it.
> 
> T


See, there's always an excuse or some different alien type of reasoning.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> See, there's always an excuse or some different alien type of reasoning.


Naaaahhhh, the excuse is you bought on faith. I know you hate this type of discussion but who's to say who sent you the dog knew anything about it. Unless they tested it environmentally away from the kennel, they don't have a clue. They probably just said he bites hard and full and has over the top prey. Some folks believe in "recovery'' hence, walk him him over it a couple of times and he gets over it. I don't. I also decided I didn't have faith. I pick my own based on all known facts, then its on me what I get in the end. 

T


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## Melissa Thom (Jun 21, 2011)

Lynn Cheffins said:


> Well having bought dogs that people have described as "a little shy" or "aloof" that were total frigging spooks and you had to catch with a snare - it would seem that there is sometimes the buyers and sellers are using totally different dictionairies.... but me I don't consider blowing anal glands, rolling eyed terror as "a little shy"


Well to be fair they were trying to get rid of the dog, lol. I can't imagine they'd have many takers if they described the dog as total farking nutjob, wets self if you make eye contact, can be found one county over if it hears a loud noise, brain implodes when pressure is applied like putting on a collar. Some folks you can just chalk it up to exposure others it's downright kennel blind perhaps with a side of greedy.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Yeah, and it was probably a little shy around the people and environments it knows. Take it away from that and its the near-feral shy.

T


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Naaaahhhh, the excuse is you bought on faith. I know you hate this type of discussion but who's to say who sent you the dog knew anything about it. Unless they tested it environmentally away from the kennel, they don't have a clue. They probably just said he bites hard and full and has over the top prey. Some folks believe in "recovery'' hence, walk him him over it a couple of times and he gets over it. I don't. I also decided I didn't have faith. I pick my own based on all known facts, then its on me what I get in the end.
> 
> T


 
No, I bought on chance in that instance...you know you're probably gonna get it in the rear end from overseas no matter what you think =D>

big Czech Kennel....use your imagination.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

I've probably been buying working dogs at least as long as some of you, probably longer. I'll caveat my remarks with; I don't buy puppies. Thorough testing, while not eliminating surprises, has certainly reduced them to a small percentage of dogs I've selected for training. While trying to remain objective, there is still a great deal of subjectivity when evaluating required behaviors. Medical selection of more objective. I use the same vet for all my physicals and xrays. I have always held the opinion that dog vendors (in my line of work) are like used car salesmen. Certainly there are some good ones. It's been my experience though, I've never spoken to a vendor that has sold a bad dog. ha ha. Test, test test. To me, puppies are a crap shoot. Granted, I'm speaking only about PSD's.

DFrost


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

David Frost said:


> To me, puppies are a crap shoot. Granted, I'm speaking only about PSD's.
> 
> DFrost


No matter what a persons intentions are, you should be able to buy a dog that isn't a complete waste of space.

I have a 3 yr old dog now that I got as a pup and isn't overly aggressive but has some qualities I like. 

Sometimes I wonder if I ever got the dog I think I would like...would I be able to do anything with *him *??

Like a pelican..sometimes our beak can hold more than our bellies can.

http://i881.photobucket.com/albums/ac13/ggrimwood/GCG_7471.jpg


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Great pic! "Complete waste of space?????" That's pretty far off the mark.


T


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## Sandra King (Mar 29, 2011)

When will people understand that just because they are buying from a big breeder, doesn't mean they get a good dog. 

Seriously, a lot of those big, so called responsible breeders, with those, oh so great kennel names, are nothing but puppy mills with a paint job. 

Do you get a titled dog? Most certainly! But that doesn't mean SHIT! 


Don't buy on chance, don't buy if you can't trust that breeder, meaning, never even looked him into the eyes personally. Chances are, that breeder WILL screw you over, finding a stupid buyer for his crap dogs. 


As for how long Gerry had that dog before he walked him over the bridge. 
It shouldn't matter! A WORKING DOG should NOT have any issue walking over running water! 

My bitch never wen over running water before. She walked over big bridges that went over the river rhine or neckar. But when I joined the SAR team, my team mate and I went to the Fulton Canals. 
The Canal has very narrow metalgrid bridges. The dogs have no protection on the sides. The dog has to, either walk in front of you, or behind you, that is how narrow it is. So not only the sides are open, but they have to go over metal/cattle grid. My bitch had no issues doing so an she had NEVER walked over anything like that, ever before. 

She knew metal grid, she knew water. That's it. 

Luckily, she had a heck of a lot of exposure in Germany but you won't get that kind of exposure from big breeders. They have so many dogs, they can't take them out and expose the dogs to certain kind of things, that being said, a sound dog, that grew up within normal means, being exposed to normal things, should have no issues going over that bridge either. 
I know that I could take my puppy Judge, that had nowhere near the same exposure, my bitch had, and he'd go over that bridge, because he's a good dog. 

I just hate breeders like that. Those kind of breeders give all the other, honest breeders, a very bad name. 

There are breeders out there that won't rip you off because their reputation is more important than the dollar. Sadly, more often than not, that is not the case... So if you buy a dog, KNOW where that dog is coming from and don't just buy a dog via handshake. Have a rock solid contract, so you can give it back when it doesn't turn out the way you wanted it. 
I bought Judge unseen but I knew that I can trust that breeder and I knew what I can expect out of that litter since I already had Indra which came out of the same mother and father. 

*Another thing. a reputable, responsible breeder, will ALWAYS work with you. If they don't, that should tell you something. 

*


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Naaaahhhh, the excuse is you bought on faith. I know you hate this type of discussion but who's to say who sent you the dog knew anything about it. Unless they tested it environmentally away from the kennel, they don't have a clue. They probably just said he bites hard and full and has over the top prey. Some folks believe in "recovery'' hence, walk him him over it a couple of times and he gets over it. I don't. I also decided I didn't have faith. I pick my own based on all known facts, then its on me what I get in the end.
> 
> T


Most knowledgeable people look at recovery time T. I could do things to make anyone jump, recovery time s a key element in judging good dogs.


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## Pete Stevens (Dec 16, 2010)

Puppies are always a crap shoot. You just never know for sure and even with some testing with adult dogs, something pops up in training and there is no way to train through it. The dog simply just didn't have it. For me, puppies are a lot of work for a "maybe". Even if the parents are both great working dogs, there will be "pet quality" dogs in that litter. I just watched a litter of 8 GSD pups for a friend of mine. First, I'll never do that again..holy crap..that was a lot of work and an large amount of puppy crap. I could see the difference in the working dogs from pets in the group. But even those that showed the potential for working dogs, who knows if they actually be able to work. Pet quality dogs should be spayed/neutered to reduce the chances of those poor genes being passed on. There will be enough pets in every litter to keep everyone happy. 

Sometimes things happen, like Kato- Will's new ground fighting partner. Lighting freaked him out. Why? Hell, I don't know but it did and now there are issues. We get some dogs, especially from Europe that just spaz out on slick floors. I've seen them trian through it and be fine while others just shut down. 

If you buy an adult dog, that is advertised as a working dog, there should be a return or replacement policy. That is just doing business the right way. Are there crooks in the dog world, you betcha. From all walks of life, including some law enforcement people who forgot that ethics don't stop when you get out of the uniform and go into the business world. A good testing process should help you weed out problem dogs, but there are some issues that come up, even after the dog completes a basic course.

Puppies however are a whole different beast with so many issues I couldn't even start to address them all. I'm with DFrost on this one. I'm not buying a puppy to raise as a PSD. I simply don't have the time to put into a "maybe".


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

> When will people understand that just because they are buying from a big breeder, doesn't mean they get a good dog


Neither does buying a dog from a hobby breeder so where does that leave you?


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## Timothy Saunders (Mar 12, 2009)

had a dog once that was great in drive but a nerve bag when not. Didn't really matter what drive she would be o.k. . I kept her for a yr in hopes that she would get better . never happened.. That was the kind of dog that could have been sold and would have started a thread like this


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## jay lyda (Apr 10, 2006)

will fernandez said:


> oh and I have never taken a training bite from him only real ones



LOL!! :razz:


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## Sandra King (Mar 29, 2011)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Neither does buying a dog from a hobby breeder so where does that leave you?


Nowhere. I can trust my breeder to get me what I need and want. It's a dog handling family. He has a very small kennel. His son handled the broodbitch. His male was a top-notch dog and he's got quite a few dogs in the US and Canada. I know him personally, I know the club where he's training, know the club president and Horst Moosmann is a 100% trustworthy. He takes interest in how the dogs progress, he's always there answering questions and he's even personally driven Judge from Austria to Frankfurt so he could take the flight. 
He's about quality, not quantity. He's one of those very few honest people, I as a buyer, can trust. I got what I wanted and I am 200% satisfied. 

What I wouldn't do is to go to a breeder I didn't know and buy a dog I have never seen. Especially when it's about big bucks. I'd have somebody in Germany go there and check him out. I recently told my father what I am looking for and he said he'd keep an eye out. If he'd tell me that he found a dog that fits my needs I'd buy it unseen because I know I can trust his word. 

A puppy is an investment. It's pretty much an investment into Hope because you are hoping the dog turns out to be good. You never know what you get, even if you handpicked the pup, you don't know if it'll live up to the promise.


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Most knowledgeable people look at recovery time T. I could do things to make anyone jump, recovery time s a key element in judging good dogs.


I would agree here. I took one of my dogs on a rocking jetty over water. She went splay legged and dug in initially but recovered pretty fast and never had another issue on the jetty.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

maggie fraser said:


> Gerry made a post on the 'ugly' thread having previously purchased/imported a 1.5 yr old gsd which was environmentally unsound and was labelled a piece of crap....Personally I have never ever had an environmentally unsound dog, but then bar a couple, all my dogs I have raised from pups.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

_As for how long Gerry had that dog before he walked him over the bridge. _
_It shouldn't matter! A WORKING DOG should NOT have any issue walking over running water!_ 


Even if that same young dog had seen near next to nothing bar the inside of a concrete box prior to purchase, before being bundled onto a plane for an overseas flight, collected by a complete stranger who decided a walk over a rickety wooden slatted bridge over noisy and fast moving water, was the ticket to freshen him up ? Do you think there is no scope for a WORKING DOG in such a scenario to be afraid or unsure and should be written off ?

Gerry, Gsd people, lame, outer space ? I don't think your reprogramming really went that well :-k.


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## Jim Nash (Mar 30, 2006)

Howard Gaines III said:


>


Many seem to get the question but I'll try to translate for you what Maggie was asking .

Basically Maggie was asking " If once bitten twice shy . why is the 3rd time a charm ? " . :-({|=


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## Sandra King (Mar 29, 2011)

maggie fraser said:


> _As for how long Gerry had that dog before he walked him over the bridge. _
> _It shouldn't matter! A WORKING DOG should NOT have any issue walking over running water!_
> 
> 
> ...


No. I wouldn't want a dog that has nothing seen but a concrete box from puppyhood to adult life. 

If you want a working dog, that dog should have grown up within normal means and that is what I said in my previous post. A dog that was exposed to normal things, shouldn't have an issue to walk over a bridge.

_



Most knowledgeable people look at recovery time T. I could do things to make anyone jump, recovery time s a key element in judging good dogs.

Click to expand...


Yes, that is very true. However, even if I only had that dog for one day and took him on a walk and walked over a normal bridge. A wide enough, concrete bridge, with still water flowing beneath. If that dog hit the floor, I'd send him back. There are things a dog should do, even without, recovery time. 

Now, what I did with Indra. I wouldn't attempt that with a dog that I only had for a day or two. That would be plain dumb and stupid. 

By the way, did Gerry every clarify what kind of bridge it was? Because that matters a lot. A dog should be able to walk over any normal bridge, no matter how long you have him! And with normal bridge I mean bridges like that. 
Or bridges like that. 
And that...if the dog hit the floor on a bridge like that. Send it back!


 
_


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## Sandra King (Mar 29, 2011)

With a bridge like that, (that is the kind of bridge I took my pups over)I'd wait a little. I wouldn't expect a dog to go over that, the very first day, I got him.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Jim Nash said:


> Many seem to get the question but I'll try to translate for you what Maggie was asking .
> 
> Basically Maggie was asking " If once bitten twice shy . why is the 3rd time a charm ? " . :-({|=


 OK now I've got it...:---)


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I've just come into the thread and heard all sorts of proclamations such as:

A working dog should be able to walk over water (I thought only Jesus could do that).

There are some very good working dogs that are environmentally sound just as there are show dogs that are environmentally sound - more than you'd think (they just lack the drive to bite).

Some of the working dogs, and by working, I mean sports dogs, bite like hell, track like trojans and put up a good obedience round. A lot of the sports people are not interested in more.

One of my GSDs could have been put in a kennel for a year and wouldn't fear anything when he came out. It's in his makeup.

The older one needs recovery time sometimes, as Don mentioned.

Both are great sports dogs, the older has even more willingness to work than the younger.

I think the expression "working dog" = God is exaggerated.

Even serious breeders can't produce the type of dogs you are talking about all the time.

What they are good at is producing healthy, athletic dogs with more or less environmentally sound natures.


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## Sandra King (Mar 29, 2011)

Gilian, there are things a dog just shouldn't be scared about. Doesn't matter if he has a brandnew handler or not. 

You should be able to walk a dog down the road without the dog jumping or hitting the floor, when a truck or bus drives by. A dog should be able to walk over a normal bridge without being scared of the water underneat and I posted pictures what I consider a normal bridge, just follow the links. 

Are there things out there where dogs allowed to show fear? Yes, there are. I wouldn't want a numb dog that shows no reaction at all to his surroundings. There are still things a dog has to learn, if it was that easy we'd all have the perfect dogs. However, some things should be expected and not having to be trained first. Like walking down a road or going over a normal bridge.. to me that is every-day life and expected out of a dog. 

And yeah, I know about those poor creatures that go from the kennel into the trailer, from the trailer to the training, back to the trailer and the kennel. Those dogs know nothing but the kennel, trailer, competition and training. They never get to see anything else. 

Poor creatures...


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Sandra,

I think you're misunderstanding me.

You cannot set up rules about what a working dog has to be able to do and what not. In my opinion you cannot train a pup as you are saying. Either a dog is fearless or it is not. Training will make him accept what you want from him but and that is the big "but". You will never know what he is going to baulk at next. 

I have had quite a few dogs of different breeds and the only one that is cautious is my elder GSDd but I would definitely not class him as environmentally unsound. For me, that describes a dog that is not only afraid of walking over a bridge but shies away from noises, people running with flapping carrier bags, etc. etc.

I disagree with you, when you say a dog has to "learn" to overcome fear of certains things. Either a dog is born fearless or not and no amount of teaching will help. It will certainly "cover" the fear for one time but another incident will have it fearful again.


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## Sandra King (Mar 29, 2011)

I think we are misunderstanding each other and basically talking about the same thing. What I ment with the fear thing is that a dog should be allowed to jump from something when he gets startled. The most important thing is how much time does the dog need to bounce back from that moment. 

And with jump, i mean a brief moment where something happens so sudden that even you jump and scream out because you got hit by surprise. If the dog is done for the rest of the day... I think we know that it's a bad sign. If the dog bounces back right away, I'd say you got a sound dog. 



> For me, that describes a dog that is not only afraid of walking over a bridge but shies away from noises, people running with flapping carrier bags, etc. etc.


Agreed!


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Gillian Schuler said:


> I've just come into the thread and heard all sorts of proclamations such as:.


Peter gave it a stab too! Got to the deep end where the lack of faith pulled him down...


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

A well bred animal should be able to "handle" most issues, if properly introduced. Training and environmental conditioning help to strengthen these aspects of a dog's character. You see it with sport dogs and police dogs. The lack of GOOD training I think is the issue.

No kid that I ever saw was a math wiz from the start. They had to have someone break the hands-on and theory down to levels that THEY understood. Dogs should be no different...pieces broken down and trained, then tested!


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## Jennifer Michelson (Sep 20, 2006)

I think I am more on the 'recovery' bandwagon. Do I want a bomb proof dog, sure. My first guy is like that . There is nothing that stops or fazes him. He is also a bit of a risk to his own safety (though age and experience have helped).

My 20 month old has given me a few worries with noise. I may do disaster work with him so noise issues are not good. At 3-6 month old-ish, he had a major issue with big trucks going by, once in a cross walk, walking my kids to school with him, I suddenly had a dead weight at the end of the leash. A large truck had pulled up, waiting for us to cross (maybe 4 feet away). Pup did not want to go near it, he wanted to leave. I had to drag him the rest of the way across the street. I was not happy. I did do a little bit of conditioning when I happened to come across a large engine running--could easily get him to eat treats under the running engine. But he would still initially shy away from the sound. I had a teammate suggest he might just have a good survival instinct.

Last summer (he was 9months old), took him to my brothers for 4th of July-didnt know brother was planning on shooting off fire works in the back yard....I fear I have a dog with sound issues and wondered how this would work. Let the dog stay outside with me to see his reaction to the noise (shooting off one test shot). Damned dog tried to drag me after the firework and when that faded out, wanted to go find out where it came from. He stayed out with us through the fire works until he got off the leash and ran and got the firing tube....I put him inside then (only had 1 spare tube!)

This weekend we had the opportunity to be close to a large police helicopter while it landed and then took off. Again, I am still a little concerned with the noise thing....(maybe I am slow to recover lol). They let us stand approx 50 ft from it while it took off--lots of noise and then, of course, the down draft. He had no reaction what-so-ever.....So, is he a shitter because he has some decent sized reactions to large vehicles when he was under 6 months old? Or does he have good nerves? He is absolutely more reactive than my older dog, but so far he as never failed to do what I want him to do, he always recovers from any initial reaction he might have .

...So, is he a shitter because he has some decent sized reactions to large vehicles when he was under 6 months old? Or does he have good nerves?


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

will fernandez said:


> The dog is a pain in the ass. When ever I work a late shift and come home in the wee hours he will attack me as I walk into the bedroom. I have counseled him hundreds of times but have given up...I switched his name to Kato. I will not miss him when he is gone.
> 
> oh and I have never taken a training bite from him only real ones


I'm still laughing over this post, Bruce Lee lives :lol:


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

Howard Gaines III said:


> A well bred animal should be able to "handle" most issues, if properly introduced. Training and environmental conditioning help to strengthen these aspects of a dog's character. You see it with sport dogs and police dogs. The lack of GOOD training I think is the issue.
> 
> No kid that I ever saw was a math wiz from the start. They had to have someone break the hands-on and theory down to levels that THEY understood. Dogs should be no different...pieces broken down and trained, then tested!


 
I would add one more step. Pieces broken down then trained seperately, pieces combined then trained all together.... and then you can test it. But maybe thats what you meant and I read it wrong or not.

Oh and Gerry I'm glad you are laughing at my expense. The worst part is that he was mine up until about he was 2 years old. He was one of my PSD failures. My wife became attached to him because he truly is a beautiful dog but just didnt have any heart. He was late to mature but is still a f-ing wingnut.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Sara Waters said:


> I would agree here. I took one of my dogs on a rocking jetty over water. She went splay legged and dug in initially but recovered pretty fast and never had another issue on the jetty.


Well Don knowledge is relative isn't it. I put a group of puppies through the same tests and handling. Pick puppy [for me] is the one that didn't react. Puppy #2 is the puppy that did [slight] and recovered within a couple of seconds. Puppy #2 went through an 8 week fear period and would never work. Puppy #1 if he had fear period, I couldn't tell. He always worked even with the worst handling and some god awful training [co-owner], he would bounce back. My preference--puppy #1. It doesn't mean that puppy #2 can't be worked.Terrasita


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Jennifer Michelson said:


> I think I am more on the 'recovery' bandwagon. Do I want a bomb proof dog, sure. My first guy is like that . There is nothing that stops or fazes him. He is also a bit of a risk to his own safety (though age and experience have helped).
> 
> My 20 month old has given me a few worries with noise. I may do disaster work with him so noise issues are not good. At 3-6 month old-ish, he had a major issue with big trucks going by, once in a cross walk, walking my kids to school with him, I suddenly had a dead weight at the end of the leash. A large truck had pulled up, waiting for us to cross (maybe 4 feet away). Pup did not want to go near it, he wanted to leave. I had to drag him the rest of the way across the street. I was not happy. I did do a little bit of conditioning when I happened to come across a large engine running--could easily get him to eat treats under the running engine. But he would still initially shy away from the sound. I had a teammate suggest he might just have a good survival instinct.
> 
> ...


If I saw something in a 3-9 month old dog as far as a fear or sensitivity and I didn't get to see him at 7 weeks, I'd condition and wait him out. When I'm looking at puppies, I'm pretty strict. After 7 weeks they go through a lot of stages. I usually see it in terms of how much pressure they can take in training. 4-6 months can be a fear period and I've seen them weird even longer. Then I've seen some go off at 12 months [weird a terrier cross who tested as a baby puppy as a recovery type]. The ones that are in and out, I don't feel secure about what I have until they start approaching age 3. I noticed the big truck thing with one of ours. So I started taking him for walks in a restaurant district that had buses going by. I would then sit on one of the benches and he and I would watch cars and buses go by. He made a great family pet. He was never in consideration for one my keeps from the time he was 3 weeks old. He showed his deficiencies then in terms of environmental confidence. Sure with my handling, he overcame all that to the level he was a great car buddy and family pet but he would not have stood up to working dog training and he didn't have the confidence and independence for stock work until he was fully mature at almost age 5. A lot of this is about selecting the ideal and in some cases, what dogs do you breed from. I don't wash out anything I either keep back from a litter or bring home to work. Once I bring it home, its on me to mold and develop it. Sticking to my selection formula, I haven't hd a puppy that didn't work the way I wanted it to.T


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Well Don knowledge is relative isn't it. I put a group of puppies through the same tests and handling. Pick puppy [for me] is the one that didn't react. Puppy #2 is the puppy that did [slight] and recovered within a couple of seconds. Puppy #2 went through an 8 week fear period and would never work. Puppy #1 if he had fear period, I couldn't tell. He always worked even with the worst handling and some god awful training [co-owner], he would bounce back. My preference--puppy #1. It doesn't mean that puppy #2 can't be worked.Terrasita


Puppy one woul;d be one I woul;d lo0ok at more for breeding purposes t but puppy # 2 woul;d have better working potential in my book.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Don Turnipseed said:


> Puppy one woul;d be one I woul;d lo0ok at more for breeding purposes t but puppy # 2 woul;d have better working potential in my book.


Maybe. I have thought about this in terms of a trial dog and was about to gamble on a puppy that was sorta in the recovery camp but that fell through do to other reasons. Interestingly enough that was part of the Bar Harbor information. I think I would say it really depends on the handler. I do think though we can become to forgiving in the recovery department and need to watch that.

T


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## Chris Jones II (Mar 20, 2011)

Sandra King said:


> No. I wouldn't want a dog that has nothing seen but a concrete box from puppyhood to adult life.
> 
> If you want a working dog, that dog should have grown up within normal means and that is what I said in my previous post. A dog that was exposed to normal things, shouldn't have an issue to walk over a bridge.
> 
> ...


What happens when you have the dog for 6 weeks or 6 ,months and then you discover it does this kind of thing in some uncommon situation? Mr. Standup Breeder Guy is all "it's your fault, i sent you a strong dog, you messed the dog up!" And what's to say Gerry G didn't in fact mess the dog up all by himself?

Why is it ok for some people to claim that the dog or puppy was sent to them already a genetic POS and people support them, but when others say it, its their fault and they messed the dog up? 

When you get down to it aren't most dogs and pups pretty stable? Not bomb proof but pretty stable. Isn't it rare to get a real POS?


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## Sandra King (Mar 29, 2011)

Now that is a very good and reasonable question. 

In that case, if it was my dog. I'd have an independent evaluator come out and have the dog evaluated independently by somebody who is not affiliated with me or the breeder. (It has been done before). 

As for puppies, you can tell a lot from a litter already. There will always be the strong pups, the weak pups and the even weaker pups and it's important to know what to look for.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Chris Jones II said:


> ...
> *When you get down to it aren't most dogs and pups pretty stable?* Not bomb proof but pretty stable. Isn't it rare to get a real POS?


 I'm going to say that the broadbrushed answer is no! Goes back to genetics then training/exposure/conditioning.

This is the reason I don't warrenty my puppies after 72 hours. The homeowner offers unlimited food, poor quality food, makes FAT critters, they are dropped, they are allowed to dive off decks etc,,,how many factors can then create a POS puppy that the breeder must take back and eat the cost?

Well bred puppies should stand WELL TOGETHER. I bought a GSD puppy from a NJ breeder. The drives and character of it, what was seen as a 7 week old, all tell me it should be a blowaway adult!!!!! Unless I screw it up or have someone else do it, it should be outstanding with time...


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Chris Jones


> When you get down to it aren't most dogs and pups pretty stable? Not bomb proof but pretty stable. Isn't it rare to get a real POS?


Not at all. That is why breeders sing the praises of early handling methods like ENS. Covers every thing up until the pup hits a stressfull situation.

Sandra King


> As for puppies, you can tell a lot from a litter already. There will always be the strong pups, the weak pups and the even weaker pups and it's important to know what to look for.


It tells you how the pups compare to each other in the litter, but, if it is a mediocre litter your still getting maybe the best of a bunch of mediocre pups. If it is a really strong litter, then the quality of the best dog in this litter will always surpass the best pup from the mediocre litter. 

In one of these two threads I made a comment about a dog that shows no fear as opposed to one that hesitates. I woul;d pick the oine with no fear to breed but the one that hesitates as a young pup, but recovers quickly, would be my first choice for hunting dangerous game or herding cattle. The hesitation in this case is not fear, it is a touch of caution. They hesitate to assess the situation. This tells me they a smarter than the totally fearless ones. This is a good thing when it comes to working stock and hunting dangerous game.....along with many other real life venues.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

I have looked at litters of puppies for sale that would not have made it out of my house.

It is more common than one might think. I took a free puppy once from a terrible litter, The only pup that did not run away, when a metal food bowl was dropped in the vicinity in the litter, tried to get it past its issues. 

The 3 straws that broke the camel's back was when the dog was 6-7 months old...

1)
When a 6 WEEK old puppy went up to her, and stole her bone, basically kicked her ass and took it. A 50 lb 6 month olf pup against a 6 week old pup.

2) 
When I was doing OB in the front yard, and my roomate came out, talked a little too loudly, and jumped off the front porch, and the pup made a mad scramble and bashed its head into the foundation of the house, knocking itself silly.

3) I brought the pup to a friends property to see if he might want to hold on to her..He had a litter of 7 week old pups, and let them all out together, while we were planting trees with a 3 pt. tractor mounted auger..
He started up the tractor and the pup took off about 100 yards and hid in
the treeline while we worked, and the small puppies were trying to kill themselves by jumping in the hole with the auger still going...


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Joby, I condition all mine to metal pans. They hear the noise and KNOW something great is coming...then they taste my cooking. I've lost so many over the years...runaways! ](*,)[-(


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Howard Gaines III said:


> Joby, I condition all mine to metal pans. They hear the noise and KNOW something great is coming...then they taste my cooking. I've lost so many over the years...runaways! ](*,)[-(


LOL....


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Howard Gaines III said:


> Joby, I condition all mine to metal pans. They hear the noise and KNOW something great is coming...then they taste my cooking. I've lost so many over the years...runaways! ](*,)[-(


Do you really condition them to metal pans Howard, serious question ? And if so, is that in preparation for a potential buyer's testing ?


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Sandra King said:


> _By the way, did Gerry every clarify what kind of bridge it was? Because that matters a lot. A dog should be able to walk over any normal bridge, no matter how long you have him! And with normal bridge I mean bridges like that. _
> _Or bridges like that. _
> _And that...if the dog hit the floor on a bridge like that. Send it back!_


The bridge may have been a two strand rope effort over rapids for all I know. So you see, making sweeping statements when there are so many variables and possible scenarios kind of kick the arse right out of them. Gerry didn't clarify....I don't suppose he is going to either now he has taken the hump.

I've never experienced probs with dogs going over bridges, even the dock type bridge you posted, but I've always had or known the dogs history largely because I've had them from pups I suppose. I do agree a good dog shouldn't be overly worried about it, but sometimes there is just a little more to it than that which is initially on the surface....details can be important.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

maggie fraser said:


> The bridge may have been a two strand rope effort over rapids for all I know. So you see, making sweeping statements when there are so many variables and possible scenarios kind of kick the arse right out of them. Gerry didn't clarify....I don't suppose he is going to either now he has taken the hump.


Taken the hump ??? If you'd read before you blab you'd see I said a pedestrian bridge, none of those are very challenging..maybe the machu pichu ones, but that's not what it was.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> Taken the hump ??? If you'd read before you blab you'd see I said a pedestrian bridge, none of those are very challenging..maybe the machu pichu ones, but that's not what it was.


Pedestrian bridge you say ??

Hiya Gerry


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## Doug Zaga (Mar 28, 2010)

Read before you blab!!!! LOL!

Maggie May the submissive unsound one


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Doug Zaga said:


> Read before you blab!!!! LOL!
> 
> Maggie May the submissive unsound one


Butt out, me and Gerry are making up I think !


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## Doug Zaga (Mar 28, 2010)

Maggie ...did Gerry see those pictures


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> Taken the hump ??? If you'd read before you blab you'd see I said a pedestrian bridge, none of those are very challenging..maybe the machu pichu ones, but that's not what it was.


Ok got ya, pedestrian bridge does still leave a lot open to interpretation though....you ever been to Scotland ??

And, you didn't say whether or not you marched him straight there on getting off the plane or not did you ?

And there's no need to be so rude !


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

maggie fraser said:


> Ok got ya, pedestrian bridge does still leave a lot open to interpretation though....you ever been to Scotland ??
> 
> And, you didn't say whether or not you marched him straight there on getting off the plane or not did you ?
> 
> And there's no need to be so rude !


Bullocks, you soggy old git...you remind me of that scottish obscene telephone caller,she got caught because she kept reversing the charges :lol:


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Gerry,

Well, the "soggy old git" is me now - I was drinking my coffee when I read this :lol:


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> Bullocks, you soggy old git...you remind me of that scottish obscene telephone caller,she got caught because she kept reversing the charges :lol:


You know, you can't even make a call from a phone box now without putting money in it first...it's a damn disgrace ! And if that's not bad enough, you have to pay to speak to the operator in order to reverse the charges now. It's completely taken all the fun out of talking on the phone....internet's not so bad though !:wink:


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## Colin Chin (Sep 20, 2006)

Gillian Schuler said:


> Sandra,
> 
> I think you're misunderstanding me.
> 
> ...


Gillian,
I think what you are trying to explain is that with dogs like that one can desensitize his shortcoming/fear ? But, the fear will still resurface at some point (different venue/issues) because he is still scared inside. Just like I read an article featuring this trainer from Belgium who used to work dogs in SA but now returned to Belgium and competes in BR. He doesn't believe in socialising the pup that he picked up for training.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Colin Chin said:


> Gillian,
> I think what you are trying to explain is that with dogs like that one can desensitize his shortcoming/fear ? But, the fear will still resurface at some point (different venue/issues) because he is still scared inside. Just like I read an article featuring this trainer from Belgium who used to work dogs in SA but now returned to Belgium and competes in BR. He doesn't believe in socialising the pup that he picked up for training.


link to article? is it online?


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## Colin Chin (Sep 20, 2006)

Joby Becker said:


> link to article? is it online?


Hi Joby,
he was interviewed by Michael Ellis years ago. He doesn't believe in using food for training either if I recall correctly.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

sounds ok to me...


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Colin Chin said:


> Hi Joby,
> he was interviewed by Michael Ellis years ago. He doesn't believe in using food for training either if I recall correctly.


 
I dont use food for herding training. Getting to work the sheep is reward enough. My working dogs have zero interest in food when they are working sheep. It is all about harnessing their instinct which is strong and food doesnt enter the equation.

Same dogs when I train agility with them are really motivated by tugs and food, which I use, although they are naturally pretty full on LOL.

I have had one dog that was very environmentally unsound. It only really showed at 6 months although perhaps I missed the early signs - she was incredibly full on to the point I have never experienced but seemed fine with people and other dogs untill about 6 months when it all went pear shaped. Although not with dogs and people she had already formed a relationship with.

Shame because training her on her own in obedience and agility and she was just so focussed and so intense and so fast. Take her outside and she would go into meltdown at the sight of people or other dogs. I did manage some desensitisation and she was okay in public to a point but I think it was only her incredible obedience skills and trust when working with me that kept her together. She was on the edge and had the potential to snap at any moment at anything really.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Colin Chin said:


> Gillian,
> I think what you are trying to explain is that with dogs like that one can desensitize his shortcoming/fear ? But, the fear will still resurface at some point (different venue/issues) because he is still scared inside. Just like I read an article featuring this trainer from Belgium who used to work dogs in SA but now returned to Belgium and competes in BR. He doesn't believe in socialising the pup that he picked up for training.


Well, I thought I was being as clear as mud as usual!! But if you re-read my post you will see that I believe that a leopard will never change its spots. Is that graphical enough in case the literary confuses you? :lol:

Gillian Schuler aka Schiller


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Colin Chin said:


> Gillian,
> I think what you are trying to explain is that with dogs like that one can desensitize his shortcoming/fear ? But, the fear will still resurface at some point (different venue/issues) because he is still scared inside. Just like I read an article featuring this trainer from Belgium who used to work dogs in SA but now returned to Belgium and competes in BR. He doesn't believe in socialising the pup that he picked up for training.


Colin what is there is there....what is missing wont ever be there. It's just a fact.... its why the genetics are always a big topic of conversation here.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Brian Anderson said:


> Colin what is there is there....what is missing wont ever be there. It's just a fact.... its why the genetics are always a big topic of conversation here.


Well maybe you understood me :roll:


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## Don Turnipseed (Oct 8, 2006)

Sara Waters said:


> I dont use food for herding training. Getting to work the sheep is reward enough. My working dogs have zero interest in food when they are working sheep.


I use food to feed my dogs. :grin: I praise them for doing a good job. But, I may take them to McD's for a burger just for being a buddy. Jack and me stopped by McD's every time we were in town and he got 2 burgers each time. LOL He even knew when we turned in their.


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Don Turnipseed said:


> I use food to feed my dogs. :grin: I praise them for doing a good job. But, I may take them to McD's for a burger just for being a buddy. Jack and me stopped by McD's every time we were in town and he got 2 burgers each time. LOL He even knew when we turned in their.


Yes I have been known to share a bucket of chips with a favourite ACD. Long ago after work, every friday night, her and me, on our way up the coast chasing waves, she also knew.


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## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

will fernandez said:


> My wife's eight year old Mal was enviormentally sound. a couple of weeks ago we were outside and lightning struck pretty close. Dog freaked and took off. It ended up being a pretty bad storm and we found him about half a mile down the road. Now he is a basket case during storms...have to crate him.
> 
> The dog is a pain in the ass. When ever I work a late shift and come home in the wee hours he will attack me as I walk into the bedroom. I have counseled him hundreds of times but have given up...I switched his name to Kato. I will not miss him when he is gone.
> 
> oh and I have never taken a training bite from him only real ones


LOL Kato :lol:


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