# Piano Biting



## Howard Gaines III

We all have seen it and I can't find the thread here. How do you overcome the new dog's issue of piano biting the sleeve? Thank god our dogs don't have this issue, but for new folks... What breed is more prone to it? Or is it an early training and foundation issue?


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## David Frost

First I have to determine it's not a nerve issue. That is often the case. If that's not it, then it's somewhere in the early traiing and foundation work. A good decoy can really help that issue. To me it's kind of a read and react issue for the decoy. Again, assuming it's not a nerve issue. If it's a nerve issue my remedy is; get another dog.

DFrost


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## Jerry Lyda

Just my thoughts on this. If it's not nerves.

In foundation training we teach the dog to re-grip in order to win the sleeve. Getting a full bite. This may be teaching the dog that it's ok to piano bite. He learns that if he does this he will win.

Another thought.
The decoy is not keeping tight pressure on the dog when he is on the grip. OR the handler don't STAND still so that the decoy can work the grip.

Only good hard full grips should be rewarded with the dog winning the sleeve. If his grips aren't that then he should be choked off, assuming the dog has not been taught to out yet.

Just my thoughts.


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## Max Orsi

Piano biting, bite shifting and constant re gripping are usually, about 95+% of the time, caused by bad training, the rest of the time there could be some physical reason like injuries on the spine or mouth.

I have never seen a good 7/8 week old pup chewing while on the bite, but I have seen a lot of older dogs do it while on stationary and non active bites.

Unfortunately dogs with higher than average “will to bite” are more prone to it when not experienced decoys overpower them physically and mentally as they are growing up just because they bite.

It usually doesn’t happen to lower “will to bite” dogs because if over powered they stop working.

Same goes for vocalization while biting.

As I said before, you can’t build what is not there, but you can definitely eff it up.

Max


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## Mo Earle

how do you guys feel about Bungee training in trying to correct the "piano biting"?

we place a harness on the dog,(with adult teeth, not a pup) stretch the bungee out as far as it goes-so you can mark that area for the Decoy... walk the dog back to the line of departure- now send the dog, with the handler, keeping the the line low,not actually holding the line, but touching it-to keep it low and to be able to catch it, so if the dog starts the "piano biting" and let's go- he will get pulled back by the recoil of the bungee, but not slung back and now he has to drive back into the bite against the resistance of the bungee... and now realizes quickly, I better hold on, If the handler is not there-the dog could actually get slammed backward...and could get injured, so it is a timing thing and try to keep the dog safe thing as well as teaching the lesson...Mo


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## Michelle Reusser

Could be bad training but more often I see it in weak dogs that can't stand the pressure and go down the arm or leg. My solution would be not wasting my time and getting a new dog, place the paino man in a pet home and get a stronger dog. I see dogs like this that need to be babied through it forever, not 3-6 months and they are as good as new and on a solid bite the rest of their lives. I'm not patient and don't want a dog that gets stuck on stupid forever, that's just me. At the very least the dog can be used in FR or another sport that doesn't require a full hard grip. If your doing Sch with a dog like this, your only banging your head on a wall. ](*,)


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## Mo Earle

_"gets stuck on stupid forever, that's just me. At the very least the dog can be used in __FR_"

not sure where you did or seen FR....but any FR competitions I have seen, and the FR I have trained for-would not be a successful place for a dog that had a problem with "piano biting"​


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## Howard Gaines III

Mo Earle said:


> how do you guys feel about Bungee training in trying to correct the "piano biting"?
> 
> we place a harness on the dog,(with adult teeth, not a pup) stretch the bungee out as far as it goes-so you can mark that area for the Decoy... walk the dog back to the line of departure- now send the dog, with the handler, keeping the the line low,not actually holding the line, but touching it-to keep it low and to be able to catch it, so if the dog starts the "piano biting" and let's go- he will get pulled back by the recoil of the bungee, but not slung back and now he has to drive back into the bite against the resistance of the bungee... and now realizes quickly, I better hold on, If the handler is not there-the dog could actually get slammed backward...and could get injured, so it is a timing thing and try to keep the dog safe thing as well as teaching the lesson...Mo


Mo as a decoy, I don't like the bungee. I want to know the exact spot where that dog can go. The extra flex gives me goose bumps! I know some piano biting is from handler issues, the dog has a fight from both ends of the leash. I think most of the time it is from very bad foundation work. Excess pressure from a decoy and the handler.

For me the bungee strap is like a very thick chick in a thong...never go there! :-o 8-[


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## Mo Earle

_"For me the bungee strap is like a very thick chick in a thong...never go there!














""

_what an analogy...you are too funny!!:-&


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## Jack Martin

And we all know not all chicks need to be in thongs.I think the bungee helps with grip some , but mainly it hepls on targeting and launching with power.And having to hoooold on or they will go for a ride.


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## Denny Campbell

Ttry a 15 foot line tied to a back tie. Make sure the dog is hooked to a aggression harness. Let the dog come all the way out to the end of the line and make sure so he dont try baiting you in. 

You will need a good decoy. Have the docoy fire him up from a distance. Then let him do 2-3 passbys. After the passbys, give a bite. KEY POINT: Keep back pressure on that line. Make sure the decoy is tight enough that if the dog typewrites or Piano bites he will los the bite. If he does it, put him away. No more bite work for him. If he loses it, he dont get it again. 

My dog had this problem when we first got him and we fixed it in about 10 days. Remember, tight backline, good decoy, 2-3 passbys and if he lets go, he dont get it again.


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## Matthew Grubb

Jerry Lyda said:


> Only good hard full grips should be rewarded with the dog winning the sleeve. If his grips aren't that then he should be choked off, assuming the dog has not been taught to out yet.
> Just my thoughts.


I agree 100%..... I don’t want a re-grip winning the sleeve. I’d save that for the crushing deep grip.

Does Not Get A Slip"









Gets A Slip:


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## Edward Egan

Hi all, so I understand a full, hard, calm bite. What I don't feel clear on is what is considered re-grip vs chewing.
My dog was full hard and didn't chew when introduced to bite work. However the helper was inexperienced and I beleave he put to much pressure on the dog to fast (ramped pressure too fast and did not go prey/defence/prey/defense) (I know that now, but not then). So I left that club (as well as other reasons) and worked with some very experienced helpers a few times. One recommended the bungee as a possible answer. We did work him on bungee and it helped, however he seems to want to re-grip excessively (full bite and hard). here is a video of working on bungee. This is pretty typical of his bite work.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7wFfXhl_3wc
Also the first helper may have promoted re-grip too much.

So is this considered chewy?
Some say it's not, and other say it is. Confused!
Thanks, Eddie


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## jay lyda

From the vid you posted, I would not call that chewy. I have seen dogs that are chewy and thats not it. Now I am not a Sch trainer so some of the Sch people here may disagree because they now what the judges look for on a trial field but to me no thats not chewy. It looks to me that the dog is trying to get a deeper bite by re-gripping. Maybe a Sch trainer can chime in here and let you know what is good and not good for what they look for. Lets pretend that dog is on a suit, hes just trying to get a fuller bite, thats alright with me, as long as he's not half assing it or letting go.


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## Edward Egan

Thanks for the reply. I was leaning toward excessive re-grips more than anything, I've seen chewy on other dogs and it's pretty obvious at times, I just don't understand were the line is drawn between the two. Also those dogs usually don't have a full grip either.
As you stated, looking for SchH types opinions.
I've also been told that given he's a showline, the judge will be looking hard at the bite ](*,). Yes he is a showline, and a long hair, but can out perform most working line GSD's I've seen around here, be it tracking, OB or protection. Man it feels good to say that!!!


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## Jeff Oehlsen

From what I saw in the video, you seem to be in the right place to train this dog.

It is a little ugly, but not what I consider typewriter. Typewriter goes to the end of the sleeve, your dog is just sorta mouthy. If I were to do anything different, I would have the decoy get more tension every once in a while and see if he sets his bite better. I also think this is a training problem more than a nerve or weirdness problem.

Quote: Yes he is a showline, and a long hair, but can out perform most working line GSD's I've seen around here, be it tracking, OB or protection. Man it feels good to say that!!!

Every once in a while there are some very nice longhair showlines dogs, but just for some perspective, he is not setting the world on fire. If the working line dogs are not better than him............................#-o 

Still, a nice dog. Hope you get this fixed soon, so you can trial.


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## Howard Gaines III

Jay, what are your thoughts on biting up or down the sleeve? Lets say elbow or wrist area? 

I like regrips if the dog wants to get more or better. If it is popping off or has light all over bites then an issue is there.


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## jay lyda

Howard Gaines III said:


> Jay, what are your thoughts on biting up or down the sleeve? Lets say elbow or wrist area?
> 
> Up or down, Im assuming that you do not mean typewriting, either they bite elbow and hold or wrist and hold. On the sleeve it must be centered. On the suit, well for starters I hate hand biters, especially if its a frontal approach (with the decoy not presenting a forearm) and the dog is trying to hit towards the hand, as if he is trying to bite the furthest thing away from the decoy. I like them high and tight. The elbow is ok. For instance, on more advanced dogs I don't like to present a target too much. Depending on whats going on with how we are setting up a scenario and the angle, the elbow might be the first thing he can grab. As long as hes in the bite good Im fine with it. When a dog tends to go toward the hand I think it is the decoys job to make sure they are more on the forearm. This is taught more in the foundation. While having targets on the suit, they should also know where to target the sleeve. So why do you ask? What are your thoughts on these locations?
> 
> I like regrips if the dog wants to get more or better. If it is popping off or has light all over bites then an issue is there.


 Regrips are fine as long as its not a mouthy grip, I like a dog who pushes into the bite to get more.


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## Kyle Sprag

"At the very least the dog can be used in FR or another sport that doesn't require a full hard grip."

This is funny! I never understood why people think this. Some of the best gripping dogs I have ever seen are Ring dogs. :roll:


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## Howard Gaines III

Hey Kyle! I understand what you are saying..pain IS pain. Don't stay away so long!!! 
Jay the pushing into the bite I also like, and the counter is what I like to release the sleeve on. Today, we had some crazy bite sessions on the suit. Can't the Georgia boys pull some REAL coin together and make it up north? Trust me, we'll not keep ya any longer than we can extract pain!!!


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Schutzhund propaganda Kyle, thats all.


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## jay lyda

Howard Gaines III said:


> Can't the Georgia boys pull some REAL coin together and make it up north? Trust me, we'll not keep ya any longer than we can extract pain!!!


Pain, as long as you have some grits for us in the morning there will be no pain. We just might have to look at making a trip. But as long as it isn't too far north, people might tend to look at me funny by the way I talk.


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## Connie Sutherland

jay lyda said:


> .... But as long as it isn't too far north, people might tend to look at me funny by the way I talk.


Meaning that if it's very far north, you might need an interpreter?

:lol:


JKY. I think.


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## Courtney Guthrie

Edward Egan said:


> Thanks for the reply. I was leaning toward excessive re-grips more than anything, I've seen chewy on other dogs and it's pretty obvious at times, I just don't understand were the line is drawn between the two. Also those dogs usually don't have a full grip either.
> As you stated, looking for SchH types opinions.
> I've also been told that given he's a showline, the judge will be looking hard at the bite ](*,). *Yes he is a showline, and a long hair, but can out perform most working line GSD's I've seen around here, be it tracking, OB or protection. Man it feels good to say that!*!!


How old is your dog? He is a nice looking dog, does decent in bitework. I however, wouldn't say that he is very strong in bitework from that video. He just isn't as strong a dog as I'd like to see on the sleeve. That said, I think he'll do fine in Schutzhund. 

Where are you located? I'm curious after reading your bolded statement above as if the working GSD's are being out performed by your dog then they need some new working line dogs out there.

Courtney


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## jay lyda

I might. LOL They'd probably be able to tell that I am not from around there though and just ignore me.


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## Edward Egan

Courtney Guthrie said:


> How old is your dog? He is a nice looking dog, does decent in bitework. I however, wouldn't say that he is very strong in bitework from that video. He just isn't as strong a dog as I'd like to see on the sleeve. That said, I think he'll do fine in Schutzhund.
> 
> Where are you located? I'm curious after reading your bolded statement above as if the working GSD's are being out performed by your dog then they need some new working line dogs out there.
> 
> Courtney


I'm in Las Vegas, I understand he's not setting the world on fire, not yet! He was a year and a half in that video. Now he's a little over two, his attitude is changing. :wink: I do desire more fight on the sleeve, no dout.
Tracking is very good, OB I'll call 85% right know, protection he has a major desire for the helper/sleeve and putting OB on him during protection is very difficult, although I'm making progress. He is not totally focused on the sleeve, often drops the sleeve and focuses back on the helper, although he doesn't re-attack or anything. After training he can sit calmly with the helper near by. It seems to me a nice balance.
I thought my statement about Working lines vs Show lines around here may get a few people to reply! 

Believe me I know that most showlines are pretty lame, especially Americain lines, just look at Sieger, I can't stand the butt draggers. I'm also not compairing him to really good working lines. It just seams of the working lines GSD's I see around here our mostly pretty lame in Protection. Maybe it's trend here in training, not sure. A few adopted czech dogs are over the top with drives, which seems to lead too an unmanagable dog, especially at home.
Just my two cents.

Thanks for the replies.

Eddie


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## David Frost

jay lyda said:


> I might. LOL They'd probably be able to tell that I am not from around there though and just ignore me.



Don't forget to check about visas and border crossing information too. Plus I think they tax about everything "up there". They sure do talk funny. Forget grits, they actually sell "instant" grits. Whoever heard of such a thing. Not sure about biscuits and I don't think they ever heard of red eye gravy, not even coffee gravy. 

DFrost


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## Howard Gaines III

Connie Sutherland said:


> Meaning that if it's very far north, you might need an interpreter?
> 
> :lol:
> 
> 
> JKY. I think.


*LOL!!!!!!!!*


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## Howard Gaines III

David Frost said:


> Don't forget to check about visas and border crossing information too. Plus I think they tax about everything "up there". They sure do talk funny. Forget grits, they actually sell "instant" grits. Whoever heard of such a thing. Not sure about biscuits and I don't think they ever heard of red eye gravy, not even coffee gravy.
> 
> DFrost


FOUL!!!! David Delaware is one of the few states without a sales tax, the state gets you in other ways...

Jay I'm sure that most will think for a second that you are from southern Delaware. A unique study in them there peeps...they can talk and NEVER move their mouth. Teeth can be clamped down and they still talk. Just don't use "ya'll" and you will be OK. Grits is what we get from the beach. The grits in our swim trunks washes out on Saturday nights.

Bring your old pop as he needs to see more than Evans. :mrgreen:


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## Courtney Guthrie

Edward Egan said:


> I'm in Las Vegas, I understand he's not setting the world on fire, not yet! He was a year and a half in that video. Now he's a little over two, his attitude is changing. :wink: I do desire more fight on the sleeve, no dout.
> Tracking is very good, OB I'll call 85% right know, protection he has a major desire for the helper/sleeve and putting OB on him during protection is very difficult, although I'm making progress. He is not totally focused on the sleeve, often drops the sleeve and focuses back on the helper, although he doesn't re-attack or anything. After training he can sit calmly with the helper near by. It seems to me a nice balance.
> I thought my statement about Working lines vs Show lines around here may get a few people to reply!
> 
> Believe me I know that most showlines are pretty lame, especially Americain lines, just look at Sieger, I can't stand the butt draggers. I'm also not compairing him to really good working lines. It just seams of the working lines GSD's I see around here our mostly pretty lame in Protection. Maybe it's trend here in training, not sure. A few adopted czech dogs are over the top with drives, which seems to lead too an unmanagable dog, especially at home.
> Just my two cents.
> 
> Thanks for the replies.
> 
> Eddie


Nothing like a good debate! 

See the whole sleeve dropping thing is too frustrating for me. You don't want it bad enough to hold it then forget it. I've never had a dog that did it, but I've seen them in the clubs. To me this is a less drivey, I don't really care dog. Unless they are dropping the sleeve and trying to engage on the helper, well then, you've got a hell of a dog. My own 19 month old shepherd will not drop the sleeve, however, he will try to engage the helper again by staring at them and dancing around. After he is outted, he is best friends with the decoy. However, he will bite or snap if the helper/decoy is moving around a lot and making hand gestures. He does this at home as well with my friends. It just takes a little extra managment of him. No biggie. 

It's gotta be a training thing there. I have yet to see a working bred GSD here not work and work well. That said, The Czech dogs are awesome working dogs!!! A lot of them are the real deal, if you think they have over the top drive. You'd never like a Malinois. 

I think this is becoming more and more of a trend. More pet type people are getting into Schutzhund and trying it with their pet dogs. They then see the real deals with high drive, hard to manage and say that the dogs are unmanagable. Most working bred dogs are NOT for pets. They are NOT easy to maintain, hence the reaason workign dogs become a way of life. My GSD is a great dog, but he'd eat a newbie alive and enjoy it. His drives are insane and I love that about him.

I guess you need to see a real working line dog!!! 

Courtney


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## Edward Egan

Courtney Guthrie said:


> Nothing like a good debate!
> 
> See the whole sleeve dropping thing is too frustrating for me. You don't want it bad enough to hold it then forget it. I've never had a dog that did it, but I've seen them in the clubs. To me this is a less drivey, I don't really care dog. Unless they are dropping the sleeve and trying to engage on the helper, well then, you've got a hell of a dog. My own 19 month old shepherd will not drop the sleeve, however, he will try to engage the helper again by staring at them and dancing around. After he is outted, he is best friends with the decoy. However, he will bite or snap if the helper/decoy is moving around a lot and making hand gestures. He does this at home as well with my friends. It just takes a little extra managment of him. No biggie.
> 
> It's gotta be a training thing there. I have yet to see a working bred GSD here not work and work well. That said, The Czech dogs are awesome working dogs!!! A lot of them are the real deal, if you think they have over the top drive. You'd never like a Malinois.
> 
> I think this is becoming more and more of a trend. More pet type people are getting into Schutzhund and trying it with their pet dogs. They then see the real deals with high drive, hard to manage and say that the dogs are unmanagable. Most working bred dogs are NOT for pets. They are NOT easy to maintain, hence the reaason workign dogs become a way of life. My GSD is a great dog, but he'd eat a newbie alive and enjoy it. His drives are insane and I love that about him.
> 
> I guess you need to see a real working line dog!!!
> 
> Courtney


My god woman, your reading soo much into my post it's amazing.
I work with Mal's almost everyday, one is very cival (no bite work for him), one is very drivey. I love Mal's, I just don't want to own one. The czech dog's I was refering to where rescues, taken in at about 2 years old. I'm sure if they were pupies brought up in the home they have now things would be very different.

I've seen real working line dogs. I go to trials and seminars. The coolest working line I've see was Nathaniel's, his dog is truely awsome. It's built like a body builder on steriods! Very serious as well. Fun to watch.

I don't think many here have NOT seen a working line that sucks! They are being watered down just like the showlines are, although not to the same degree.

I dout I would buy any American lines, working or show.

By the way my dog has been bumping the sleeve on entry to the blind, the helper just drops the sleeve. After about 4 times he did a H&B on the helper without the sleeve. I'm sure he was searching for the answer to the denial of his satisfaction.
The same helper fell while my dog was engauged on the sleeve, he stayed on the sleeve, much to my relief.


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## Courtney Guthrie

Edward Egan said:


> My god woman, your reading soo much into my post it's amazing.
> I work with Mal's almost everyday, one is very cival (no bite work for him), one is very drivey. I love Mal's, I just don't want to own one. The czech dog's I was refering to where rescues, taken in at about 2 years old. I'm sure if they were pupies brought up in the home they have now things would be very different.
> 
> I've seen real working line dogs. I go to trials and seminars. The coolest working line I've see was Nathaniel's, his dog is truely awsome. It's built like a body builder on steriods! Very serious as well. Fun to watch.
> 
> I don't think many here have NOT seen a working line that sucks! They are being watered down just like the showlines are, although not to the same degree.
> 
> I dout I would buy any American lines, working or show.
> 
> By the way my dog has been bumping the sleeve on entry to the blind, the helper just drops the sleeve. After about 4 times he did a H&B on the helper without the sleeve. I'm sure he was searching for the answer to the denial of his satisfaction.
> The same helper fell while my dog was engauged on the sleeve, he stayed on the sleeve, much to my relief.


Sorry, I wasn't trying to read into what you were saying. 

You are SO right about teh working lines being watered down. I think this is due to pet people wanting to play in the working dog sports. So breeders are breeding for that inbetween dog and watering their lines down BAD! I have seen sucky GSD's bred for work. 

That's great that he is searching for the right way to earn his reward! 

He's a pretty dog! 

Courtney


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## Edward Egan

Courtney Guthrie said:


> Sorry, I wasn't trying to read into what you were saying.
> 
> You are SO right about teh working lines being watered down. I think this is due to pet people wanting to play in the working dog sports. So breeders are breeding for that inbetween dog and watering their lines down BAD! I have seen sucky GSD's bred for work.
> 
> That's great that he is searching for the right way to earn his reward!
> 
> He's a pretty dog!
> 
> Courtney


Thanks for the compliment. It's kinda fun in a way to have a long hair showline doing sch. Some people are very surprised by his performance. Others turn there nose up and walk away (figuratively speaking). "Ah he can't be any good he's a long haired showline". Those people are usually the ones who have been in the dog sport long enough to here that all showlines suck over and over so they just repeat it.


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## Edward Egan

Come to think of it, I think I'll need to ugly him up for trial. Any idea's?:lol:


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## Terry Fisk

Edward Egan said:


> Thanks for the compliment. It's kinda fun in a way to have a long hair showline doing sch. Some people are very surprised by his performance. Others turn there nose up and walk away (figuratively speaking). "Ah he can't be any good he's a long haired showline". Those people are usually the ones who have been in the dog sport long enough to here that all showlines suck over and over so they just repeat it.


Is that Mojo??? Does he still chase shadows? I remember him when he did his BH at our trial last year. From the video your dog is not tw biting. Think of tw biting as the dog working up or down the sleeve like eating corn off the cob from one end to the other! I'm not sure the bungee is the right thing here as he need resistance from the helper and the bungee will not allow this.

Not all show lines suck and not all working lines are watered down. Big problem is that not all handlers are capable of bringing the dog's full potential to the table, some excel at it. We visited a neighboring club this weekend and saw both examples. Very nice, powerful, strong working dog that was a poor match for the handler's ability, (definitely in the wrong hands) and a lovely show dog in the hands of an excellent trainer. This show dog has a better chance of attaining the handlers goals than the working dog does simply because of the handlers capabilities.


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## Edward Egan

Terry Fisk said:


> Is that Mojo??? Does he still chase shadows? I remember him when he did his BH at our trial last year. From the video your dog is not tw biting. Think of tw biting as the dog working up or down the sleeve like eating corn off the cob from one end to the other! I'm not sure the bungee is the right thing here as he need resistance from the helper and the bungee will not allow this.
> 
> Not all show lines suck and not all working lines are watered down. Big problem is that not all handlers are capable of bringing the dog's full potential to the table, some excel at it. We visited a neighboring club this weekend and saw both examples. Very nice, powerful, strong working dog that was a poor match for the handler's ability, (definitely in the wrong hands) and a lovely show dog in the hands of an excellent trainer. This show dog has a better chance of attaining the handlers goals than the working dog does simply because of the handlers capabilities.


Hi Terry, yes that's Mojo. Shadows only if he's really bored. Like standing around talking to someone. His intesity over them has also deminished.

Excellent post by the way. I agree. 
I feel Mojo's a great match for a first time handler. I had a GSD and other dogs as a kid, but I couldn't call myself the handler. He's very easy at home (as long as we do something two or three times a day). His drives/attitude are what I can handle, while still being a challange at times. I may also look for more drive from the next dog, may also switch to Mondio someday.

Eddie


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## Courtney Guthrie

I agree with you Terry. I know that my dog is "better" than I am and in the right hands has the potential to go farther than what he will with me. Granted, I'm not a novice trainer, I learned on an "off" breed, AST/APBT. I'll take him as far as I can and hopefully I'll learn more along the way to take him farther than I would be able to as of right now. 

Eddie- Send him to me, I'll give him a Lion Cut!!! That'll make the decoy look twice. 

Courtney


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## Edward Egan

Courtney Guthrie said:


> I agree with you Terry. I know that my dog is "better" than I am and in the right hands has the potential to go farther than what he will with me. Granted, I'm not a novice trainer, I learned on an "off" breed, AST/APBT. I'll take him as far as I can and hopefully I'll learn more along the way to take him farther than I would be able to as of right now.
> 
> Eddie- Send him to me, I'll give him a Lion Cut!!! That'll make the decoy look twice.
> 
> Courtney


That's funny! A few people told me he looks like a lion already, I get wolf alot too.


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## Courtney Guthrie

Yeah, a lot of people ask me if Judge is a wolfhybrid. Um...NO...what about a CoyoteChowX...that's gotta be it. damn sable coloring. lol lol lol 

Courtney


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## Gillian Schuler

Could this not also be breed afflicted?

I had a Briard, true to type, would attack any animal that wasn't a dog, however large. After all, it is / was used to protect the sheep herds.

In IPO 1, went into it from working trials because the dog had drive, no fear, etc. Good results.

Stepped up to IPO3. Sometimes very good protection, depending on how the judge evaluated the grips! Went in with force, once or twice pulled the decoy down to the ground. Was evaluated as a dog with the desired drive and fight. Never jumped for the sleeve - went under and pulled like a maniac - that's why some helpers did a somersault. A decoy at the club I'm at now suggested letting him jump over barrels but the dog has reached 3 years and so I didn't even try. I still had fun with the crazy coot though.

Once had to follow the decoy to the field (Toni's fault not mine) but I should have resisted](*,) 

On the long flight, the dog shot down the field and pushed, shoved and knocked the helper BUT no grip:evil: 
I guess he couldn't channel his drive?

This dog was environmentally very sound and I had a lot of fun with him on and off the trial field but he was in this country, the best as he was clean, so I changed the breed. You have to know when you're beaten.


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## susan tuck

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Schutzhund propaganda Kyle, thats all.


uh no, that silly statement was made by a PSA person.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

HA HA I missed that. Michelle had the foot in the mouth. :-D


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## Calvin Ledford

Not questioning your current helper or program (I’m only looking at a tiny 30 second slice of training) - but I am curious - it appears the dog is only being worked in prey. Is this related to trying to work through some issue introduced by the first helper?

FWIW, I would suggest going back to square 1 and working the bark and hold first. Get intensity there and see what his grips are like then and deal with them there if still required. (best done on a pole) You can still use a bungee on a pole BTW. Regardless, working him in both drives will get his head into the game. When on the pole the helper can make aggression (frontal stance, eye contact), build the barking, transition into prey (run-by) and finally build frustration with a miss or two. After a couple of series of aggression/prey/frustration/aggression/prey/frustration/ transitions intensity will be up and he'll have worked for that sleeve – he then gets a grip, rewarding the intensity. If the chewing issue isn't nerves (and it sounds like it might not be if they were good initially...) than simply being in a higher state of drive and having have to both "fight" the helper (and win) and then also have learned that the sleeve/grip is not a given (the misses) the grips could improve.

I mean no disrespect and again have no idea about your current program or plan, which is likely well thought out, but from an “outside the ring” perspective see you guys working on obedience (the “look at me”), grips (“hold it”) and movement/targeting (dog going to helper for grip vs. helper coming to dog) but all the while the dogs intensity is pretty low. Even of you fixed the grip, if he keeps working in such low drive he would have a good chance of having grip issues again when the real pressure comes in the form of being driven and stick hit. Regardless, the obedience and even the targeting can be worked on later; I would seek the intensity first. Regardless as to what drives the helper was seeking to illicit (couldn’t see him for the most part…) the dog was clearly only in prey – that much can be determined by the bark (when he was barking) and the lack of bark and him turning his back on helper when the sleeve was slipped. In the final segment during the bark & hold he stopping barking all together at one point – possibly distracted by something off camera – but that showing a lack of intensity. Please understand that I’m saying your dog lacks intensity only what he was showing in that segment – which is very easy to build.

Regarding the regripping. I believe it to be a huge skill and one that should always be rewarded. Puppies - let them win the prey. Older dogs, slipping the sleeve is a bit much, but when the dog counters the helper should show a brief moment of weakness to the dog showing strength. I.e the dog counters (re-grips) the helper lets the arm go slack for a second/fades in presence - then goes back to the fight. Regripping is not bad - dogs will ALWAYS get bad grips, most of the time NOT THEIR fault - but how they deal with it is important. Re-gripping is good. shallow grips, scissoring, shifting the grip, relaxing the grip, chewing and "corn cobbing" are all real bad. Typically, regripping should only occur once so the dog can go all of the way deep into the sleeve - assuming him was not full on the intial bite. 




Edward Egan said:


> Hi all, so I understand a full, hard, calm bite. What I don't feel clear on is what is considered re-grip vs chewing.





Edward Egan said:


> My dog was full hard and didn't chew when introduced to bite work. However the helper was inexperienced and I beleave he put to much pressure on the dog to fast (ramped pressure too fast and did not go prey/defence/prey/defense) (I know that now, but not then). So I left that club (as well as other reasons) and worked with some very experienced helpers a few times. One recommended the bungee as a possible answer. We did work him on bungee and it helped, however he seems to want to re-grip excessively (full bite and hard). here is a video of working on bungee. This is pretty typical of his bite work.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7wFfXhl_3wc
> Also the first helper may have promoted re-grip too much.
> 
> So is this considered chewy?
> Some say it's not, and other say it is. Confused!
> Thanks, Eddie


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## Edward Egan

Thanks for the insight.

Yes, he was too far into defense. He would win the sleeve, drop it and go back at the helper. It has been a challange to keep it balanced. Plus the helper I currently train with is not very experienced, so he's not very sure about working in defense. We both know this, but it's what we can do at this point. His intensity on the B&H has deminished some. I think he also feels to comfortable with my helper. I have recently had a few other helpers work him and he was up. The helper I usually work with did a little test on him with regards to the sleeve. After the bite he dropped the sleeve and laid on it to chew it up [-X , the helper poked him in the butt with the stick and Mojo went after him with a vengance. THis is why I feel he's to comfortable with my regular helper.

A recent issue that arose is while in a H&B and I call him out of the blind he does a cheap shot on the sleeve, then comes to heel (little f'er). We put a long line on him and did a correction for this but it has not corrected the issue (last two times out).

By the way we are getting some better control on him during protection. He will now foos pretty good and I found he fooses better of lead.

He takes stick hit and drives with no problem.

Thanks, Eddie


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