# What style of dog /training...



## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Long hours of walking around premises on leash with no person present except handler, 3 bites in 15 years average for premises (not same dog duh).

Major physical defences to breach before access to dog/handler = organised breach by pro criminals.

Legal requirement for 100% on leash deployment = no fancy control training.

Dog deployed in same environment every day of its life and lives there.

Same handler every day.

Property to protect that bad gus will kill humans to acquire = base chemicals for narcotics manufacture large scale.

What traits would you for in a dog for this role — serious question.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Chopper was my first lesson between myth and fact.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l5y3NO8YSow

I think what your looking for Peter is just a good old. Territorial dog. No need for anything special. Just a dog that bites everyone, except his handler.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Nice, whats yr point again?


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Ok scrolled past the link and saw yr point, identifying that dog, training it???


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

If it's never going to leave the property, and it's an anti-social terriorial dog.....I mean I am talking a dog that just bites people because it does like anyone it does not know....what training? Why would you need to train it. 

I think you need to make sure he's that kind of dog. but that's pretty easy. 

Chopper, was the point. I walked up someones drive when I was a kid, to tell them the lights on thier car were on. when I rounded the corner to knock on the door, I was greeted by a yellow lab, who growled and started running at me, and I ran. dog got me at the edge of the drive. Bite the shit out of me. This dog would work.

Not a day of protection training in his life. That's what I would use. I would scower the pounds for dogs that were released for being nasty. as opposed to buying a trained protection dog. I could get chopper for 75.00. not 7500.00


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Lol our pounds will not release any dog that shows any sign of aggresion, they are thouroughly tested and if they fail are pts, rarely any acd or bull breed makes it out alive, funny most herders dobes and rotts do??? 

Most sg dogs i seen are not purchased from wl breeders,they are donated by families that are too scared of their dog but love it enough not to have it destroyed.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

A good male Rottweiler


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Common line of thought but not utilised much, possible reason finding one, or the long hours handlers consider them too not sharp enough.

All serving dogs are gsd's in this company.

I certainly thought rott.

And for training???


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

carry firearm too?


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Honest i never asked, too wrapped up in dog talk, assume so, will ask.

Pup gets evaluated for training wed, they already came out for a look see, that led to a training invite.

They dont use sleeves or suits, despise prey drive as a breed virus and fail most dogs from training within the first session or two, usually wont even look at sch titled dogs.

Firearms a tough deal, mostly only for armoured vehicles transferring cash from banks, so dunno.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> Honest i never asked, too wrapped up in dog talk, assume so, will ask.
> 
> Pup gets evaluated for training wed, they already came out for a look see, that led to a training invite.
> 
> ...


well to NOT look at titled dogs, and too despise prey drive sounds a little foolish but whatever...

I personally would not scour dog pounds for labs or dogs like chopper LOL... if people might actually come to try to steal stuff that they might kill for...

a rottie, a mal/dutchie in the 85 lb range, a gsd, a well built presa, bandog, etc... probably something nasty though like James suggests, but of a type that will stay engaged and fight, with enough strength and power to got towards control and damage.

The training is up in the air, since apparently THEY train the dogs.

If they do not use sleeves or suits, what do they use for the dog to bite? 

How do they train?

you looking at having them train your dog? buy your dog? or you working there?


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Ok meant external sleeve.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

something like this dog would probably be ok. no bitework ever, before this test. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IU0f1vgj0FA


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

That would prolly do it, or come close.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

you looking at having them train your dog? buy your dog? or you working there? or what? lol


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Someone else train my dog, man you know better than that.

buy— been mentioned but NO.

Work there — they are helping me get licence so? 

Its just a training invite now, felt sorry for me i think, all dressed up and noone to party with.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> Someone else train my dog, man you know better than that.
> 
> buy— been mentioned but NO.
> 
> ...


pete, by train your dog, I really meant helping you train your dog, my mistake. 

let us/me know how it goes...


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

No prob, no mofo trains my dog but me. Yes help train by decoying, organising scenarios etc, wont waste time unless dog wants it. 

Hopefully record vid wed all going to plan, good learning what different people look for.


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## Britney Pelletier (Mar 5, 2009)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> They dont use sleeves or suits, despise prey drive as a breed virus and fail most dogs from training within the first session or two, usually wont even look at sch titled dogs.


sounds interesting.. and not very typical of the type of training I've heard about around here. 

As Joby said, despising prey drive is pretty foolish. I have a 95lb PH1 Malinois that would suit that role perfectly. He will bite anything you point him at, has virtually zero self preservation and a high, high threshold for pain when in drive. This is all because he is an absolute prey monster. 

That being said, dogs like him are not the norm, but I still don't think you want the other end of the spectrum. Super defensive, low defense threshold dogs are not necessarily something you can rely 100% to protect you, because many of them can often be on the verge of running because they are acting out of fear and self preservation instinct.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Well said Britney!


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Britney Pelletier said:


> sounds interesting.. and not very typical of the type of training I've heard about around here.
> 
> As Joby said, despising prey drive is pretty foolish. I have a 95lb PH1 Malinois that would suit that role perfectly. He will bite anything you point him at, has virtually zero self preservation and a high, high threshold for pain when in drive. This is all because he is an absolute prey monster.
> 
> That being said, dogs like him are not the norm, but I still don't think you want the other end of the spectrum. Super defensive, low defense threshold dogs are not necessarily something you can rely 100% to protect you, because many of them can often be on the verge of running because they are acting out of fear and self preservation instinct.


I get that, and can agree, but I can also say there are dogs with low thresholds for civil aggression, that do not operate in much prey drive, that will stay in the fight. Whether those dogs are in "defense", or "fearful" is up for discussion I suppose.

Many of those types of dogs might not be that calm, and might be dirty, or get really aggressive, might not be ideal dogs for lots of extended training of advanced bitework excercises for a few reasons, but to say they would not stay in a fight, or are on the verge of running, I would not agree with on the whole.

One of the most defensive dogs I know, is a dog that will fight anyone, anywhere, and is not gonna break and run, even if someone breaks his bones, he is a social dog, low threshold type, very active response. pitbull/doberman cross.

Plenty of strong Rottweilers, bullbreed/molloser or crosses are types that can have low thresholds that are not gonna run in a fight.

I would say if you are talking about more traditional herding breeds, I would agree with that statement moreso, than some other types of dogs. 

I cant really say if the dogs are in "fight" or defense, as people seem to think that a real high degree of prey has to be present for "fight drive" to appear.  But some dogs will go berserk with little provocation, and are not dogs that are gonna run in a fight, and are not operating in prey drive.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

My interprétation only, the modern bad guy gets dogs and formal training eg police dogs, they will throw up a padded target dog chows down on it and leaves itself vulnetable to a counter. No need for more detail on a public forum.

Titled dogs most vunerable, i doubt these guys really dislike prey dogs or titled dogs per se, all my interprétation...

Btw context guys, yes a dog in a football size field doing a courage test does have the luxury of choosing to bail out, context, get with the program......just sayin. Were not talking chasing down the bad guy either...all of which defence is wrong drive.


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## Jehane Michael Le Grange (Feb 24, 2009)

I reckon a good rottweiler or boerboel. SInce the dog is only going to be on lead it surely can't get that exhausted if the handler manages it correctly however if it is really hot then rather go for a nice mal or dutchie. 

Training should be on site. Aggitation without bites with the helper jumping the wall, etc. and then throw in the odd hidden sleeve bite and arrest situation. Dog should not be allowed to socialize with ANYONE! I don't recommend hidden sleeve with a boerboel or big rottweiler though. Earlier this month a boerboel attacked a woman in a neighbouring town after getting out of his yard and the damage resulted in her arm being amputated. This is not the first time this has happened. 

http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/Womans-arm-amputated-after-dog-attack-20120607

http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/Man-mauled-by-dogs-in-Roodepoort-20120224

http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/Man-still-critical-after-dog-attack-20101112

http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/Man-loses-arm-after-dog-attack-20070320

http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/Boerboel-savages-woman-20090813

As you can see from these few articles from one news source, a biting boerboel might be hard to find, but when they do bite is is serious stuff.

A rottweiler at our local police dog unit also inflicted so much damage that a suspect had a partial amputation. So if the criminals that are attacking are willing to kill I reckon you need a dog that is willing to kill, especially if the security guard is unarmed.

We have alot of scrapyards here that are protected by security dogs. mainly rottweilers or rottweiler crosses, but these are predominantly free roaming without handlers and serve little purpose when large groups of intruders show themselves. We often have robberies involving 15 or more suspects.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

J, BB's are new here and like to be the next big thing, if you google aus breeders you will see the SA lines. They induce a lot of hype and are expensive. None i know do any work or sport although one guy has a vid of one herding. Be great to get yr opinion of the lines assuming here a SA guy knows such things prefer pm if you wish to, dont want to upset any breeders.

I requested to work some but of course they are too dangerous to work, they show them instead.


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## Jehane Michael Le Grange (Feb 24, 2009)

My folks have a nice BB who is stable, social but also very protective and should he bite someone they would definitely end up in hospital. 

They are used extensively by our correctional services for prisoner control or riot control in prisons and too me they are well suited to that. intimidating size, pack a powerful 'punch' and thats about it. they are intellegent but to find one that is stable enough for bitework is not all that common. They are predominently bred for size nd showing and to me that is wrong. I like a compact dog. They are farm guarding dogs and do that well too. unfortunately due to their size they are not very agile or active and suffer abit in the heat so they can't be PSD since they don't travel well in a car all day.

Those that do bite are super but you got to look hard for them. The problem is that they are also handler sharp and if they bite their handler the damage is huge as can be seen from the articles. 

I still rate the good ones though FOR THE CORRECT PURPOSES. Protection on a small holding or farm and then riot control or correctional service dog. Get one from a pup and look for the most confident outgoing one. Any sign of the dog being timid and you should rather stay away.Then develop the dog closely with the handler or family for that matter, there needs to be a very strong bond or the dog might develop a mind of his own and then you end up with chomp chomp chomp. Dog's drives need to be stimulated so play ball, etc if they are keen on it. When they bite they are usually fairly high in defense or fight rather. It does not take much to aggitate a confident boerboel into biting. they just need to be developed correctly. The easiest way to train them to bite is to put them out with other dogs and let them watch abit. I have only trained a handful but 95% of them were on the hard arm from the first session. If they show any aggression towards the helper, believe me they are going to bite. They seem to be a breed that backs its bark up with a bite. The only breed I have had more 'success' with in bitework training is the bull terrier. I had 3 that came for training and all 3 were on the sleeve from the first session. same story there, put them amongst other dogs and crack a whip a few times and if there's a bark there will be a bite. Rootweilers are also quite close behind the boerboel for ease of aggitation again provided that they are well developed and confident.


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> J, BB's are new here and like to be the next big thing, if you google aus breeders you will see the SA lines. They induce a lot of hype and are expensive. None i know do any work or sport although one guy has a vid of one herding. Be great to get yr opinion of the lines assuming here a SA guy knows such things prefer pm if you wish to, dont want to upset any breeders.
> 
> I requested to work some but of course they are too dangerous to work, they show them instead.


wouldnt say there that new here they have been here for a decade at least now but not everyone knew about them so they were out of the line of fire.hope they r not the next big thing but i would have thought in ten years that would have happened by now although you never know it only takes one wanker.


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## Garland Whorley (Jun 5, 2008)

Talk to people that have like attitude, training tech. NOT many.. Where are you located??


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Im in qld in aus, not austria.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> Long hours of walking around premises on leash with no person present except handler, 3 bites in 15 years average for premises (not same dog duh).
> 
> Major physical defences to breach before access to dog/handler = organised breach by pro criminals.
> 
> ...


I just go back to the old Sentry Dog days. That is exactly the job they did, only the "product" they were protecting was somewhat different. Bottom line, there really wasn't much difference in the dog that was selected for sentry work as there was with selecting for psd. It was the training and deployment that differed.

DFrost


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## Jim Delbridge (Jan 27, 2010)

If bad guys will kill humans, they won't think twice about killing a dog in their way. Breed doesn't matter, attitude matters. The dog's main function will be delay and alarm. That means agile, quick, only takes food from one human, and a fear biter that feels trapped in its environment. Multiple breeds meet the physical aspects. You have to test for the attitude. Lots of prisons get such dogs to act as fence runners. They are only in friendly contact with one human and are left to run between fences that inmates have to get past to escape. The one human feeds and drugs if needed to be treated by a vet. Big and slow will not inspire as much fear in "bad guys" as "fast and all teeth."

Jim Delbridge


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

A nervy sharp dog? I assume has better awareness of environment, better senses.





Jim Delbridge said:


> If bad guys will kill humans, they won't think twice about killing a dog in their way. Breed doesn't matter, attitude matters. The dog's main function will be delay and alarm. That means agile, quick, only takes food from one human, and a fear biter that feels trapped in its environment. Multiple breeds meet the physical aspects. You have to test for the attitude. Lots of prisons get such dogs to act as fence runners. They are only in friendly contact with one human and are left to run between fences that inmates have to get past to escape. The one human feeds and drugs if needed to be treated by a vet. Big and slow will not inspire as much fear in "bad guys" as "fast and all teeth."
> 
> Jim Delbridge


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## Jim Delbridge (Jan 27, 2010)

I think your best bet in finding a dog like this is to network with the various animal control officers as it would be typical that such a dog would be put down and probably as a result of a crappy owner. Dogs that are chained up with little human contact often go this route. They get out of their restraint and become a liability to society. With the right human, they can find a decent life but it would take building trust. A lot of times you'd kennel this dog and be the sole contact bringing food to it once a day until it begins to trust you. That someone might create a dog like this is a sad thought, but I've come across enough in the past to know they exist. Sometimes they become feral. I have a breed rescue that I got that way, few social skills but a big heart.

Jim


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Thanks for comments, AC has so many nice pets they have to destroy by the truck load cos they cant afford to feed them and cant find homes for. First sign of aggresion is instant cull. To get one of these dogs would require theft or corruption. They wont even let hunters take a dog period.

But yes most of the dogs in this work are random donations.

I am surprised the only comments involve the pound as source of working dogs, what of the thousands of dog breeders and lines around the world, all incapable of producing a basic solid working dog with real aggression, the market might be small but its there. is it all show and sport these days except for the odd abberration???? 


WTF is everyone breeding?? show dogs?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Pete I will offer an alternative to the fear biting dog that feels trapped in his environment.

A dog that is civil, has social aggression, and territorial, but is confident, might be a better choice.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Joby Becker said:


> Pete I will offer an alternative to the fear biting dog that feels trapped in his environment.
> 
> A dog that is civil, has social aggression, and territorial, but is confident, might be a better choice.




A ton harder to find but worth it when you do!


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