# Secondhand Smoke



## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Can dogs get health problems from secondhand cigarette smoke?


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Do dogs have lungs?


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Anne Vaini said:


> Do dogs have lungs?



No need to get sarcastic about it!


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Having attended numerous necropsies of working dogs, second hand smoke is the least of their problems. Back in the day when it seemed like everyone smoked, I never saw any health problems in dogs from second hand smoke. It doesn't seem like working dogs are living any longer now that fewer handlers smoke and smoking is prohibited in many city and state vehicles. That's just an observation. 

DFrost


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

David's right about lung cancer, which was the cancer researchers were looking at (when it was ever researched) when they considered dogs and secondhand smoke.

For some reason, dogs are more prone to another secondhand-smoke-related cancer over lung cancer. I think it was Colorado State that had a paper on this, but I'll dig it up. Nasal sinus cancer and secondhand smoke show a strong correlation --- much stronger than lung cancer. And the correlation was strongest in longest-nosed dogs, so Collies topped the list, and there was no sinus-cancer correlation in flat-face dogs.

Flat-faced dogs did show higher lung cancer rates associated with second-hand smoke, maybe (I read) because they have less of a filtering-way (no long nose).


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

I started a thread on another board a few years ago about this. I was told by the non-smoking instructors that the smoke affects the dogs' night vision as well as their scenting skills. Don't know if it's true or not.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Howard Knauf said:


> I started a thread on another board a few years ago about this. I was told by the non-smoking instructors that the smoke affects the dogs' night vision as well as their scenting skills. Don't know if it's true or not.


Really! That's interesting and I will check that out too.


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Just so ya don't get too excited...one of the instructors said he would never take a dog with yellow eyes because those are the alpha dogs.](*,) Trying to pick the fly sh** out of the pepper was always time consuming to me when I was new.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

David, if most working dogs are outside in kennels and not in the home, they would likely not be affected. Here's food for thought.

http://www.petside.com/news/how-secondhand-smoke-may-be-killing-your-pet.html

We haven't learned anything specifically about secondhand smoke in dogs in class yet, so I can't say what we're being taught. However, one of the vets I shadowed with before vet school had a lady come in with her little poodle thing. It presented for coughing, but it wasn't all that old for the breed (8-10 years, if memory serves). They did chest radiographs on it and the heart wasn't enlarged like it would be for congestive heart failure (one of the common reasons older dogs present with coughing/exercise intolerance), but there definitely seemed to be "smoker's lung" going on in the lungs on the x-ray. The woman absolutely reeked of smoke and she burst out into tears (I had to run into the other room to grab a box of tissues for her) when the vet pretty much told her she was killing her pet. She never really had a reason to try and quit before that, but she was going to try because of her dog.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> .... The woman absolutely reeked of smoke and she burst out into tears (I had to run into the other room to grab a box of tissues for her) when the vet pretty much told her she was killing her pet. She never really had a reason to try and quit before that, but she was going to try because of her dog.


Imagine what the inside of her home was like.....

I hope the life of another being was enough of a prompt, since her own apparently wasn't a big deal to her :-(


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

If you drive a car, maybe you should stop that as well so the dog can have clean lungs....wait, move away from the city, to a place that has no cars..........or not.

Cancer is not something that dogs get just because. It is genetic, just like it is in humans. I would worry more about all the cars your dog is exposed to, because the chemicals coming out of the exhaust pipe are much worse than a cig.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> .... I would worry more about all the cars your dog is exposed to, because the chemicals coming out of the exhaust pipe are much worse than a cig.


I do.

But as far as things that are in my control, why would I not control them? 

Yes, there is a genetic factor in many kinds of cancer. For example, up to 10% of colorectal cancers are genetic, according to the Sloan-Kettering Cancer Center. http://www.mskcc.org/mskcc/html/8621.cfm



http://www.cancer.gov/cancertopics/pdq/genetics/overview/HealthProfessional/page2

http://articles.latimes.com/2000/jul/13/news/mn-52213


For me, I don't get why I would not control the controllable -- especially lifestyle choices. JMO. 

E.T.A.
I admit that if I smoked, I might have more of a denial thing going on .... :lol: I am lucky that I don't, because I would probably be a very poor quitter-of-smoking.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Maren, I can't give you percentages, but they do spend 8 hours a day in a vehicle with the officer. Many dog also live in the home with the handlers. 

DFrost


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

It is just a dog. The bottom line is that your dog will either get the damn thing or not. I have not lost one yet, knock on wood to cancer, and I smoke. 

Considering it is just a dog, that is probably why I could care less. Sure they are cute and all, but too many people take this shit way to seriously. 

Put the damn thing in a bubble for all I care. How much fun is that???? A dog is supposed to ADD to your life, not make you think goofball shit like this.

How much fun would Lee be to hang around with? ? ?:roll:


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## Michele McAtee (Apr 10, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> A dog is supposed to ADD to your life, not make you think goofball shit like this.QUOTE]
> 
> Ahhh, but what about the dog and its perception of your dependence on nicotine as a weakness. Huh? What about that? LOL.
> 
> IMHO, if you do smoke, you should do it outside...keeps the walls clean in your house anyway, and probably will help your tracking scores and the health of your dogs nose/overall well being.


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> It is just a dog. The bottom line is that your dog will either get the damn thing or not. I have not lost one yet, knock on wood to cancer, and I smoke.
> 
> Considering it is just a dog, that is probably why I could care less. Sure they are cute and all, but too many people take this shit way to seriously.
> 
> ...



I smoke too, Jeff. I drive around with the windows open part way to let the smoke out. I can't handle it myself in a closed up area.

Winter is here in the north. I was wondering just how much I needed to freeze my ass off with open car windows. I'm fun to hang out with so long as I'm not a frozen Popsicle.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Michelle, TRACKING ? ? ? ? ? ? Who does that ?????

Lee, I have been a popsicle way too many times, and thought I would cure it by moving to San Antonio........I woke up one morning and thought that my guts were going to swell and burst it was so ****ing hot. Holy crap.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

David Frost said:


> Maren, I can't give you percentages, but they do spend 8 hours a day in a vehicle with the officer. Many dog also live in the home with the handlers.
> 
> DFrost


I more meant "back in the day" when more people smoked, dogs were probably (don't know about in your case) more likely to be kept in the outdoor kennel rather than in the house with the handler. I don't smoke, but if I did, it'd be outside and not around the house. Why risk it if you're spending thousands of dollars and hours on a dog? That's like paying several grand on a pup and feeding it the $10 50 pound bag of Ole Yeller dog food on sale at Krogers. Just don't make no sense... :-k


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

What's wrong with Old Yeller? :lol:


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

At the boarding kennel I worked at, the oldest, most robust dogs ate stuff like ol' Roy, and Alpo.

Figure that one out, when your dog is old and dead at 10. These dogs were all over 13 years of age.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> they are cute and all, but too many people take this shit way to seriously.


And yet you are so drawn to the topic that you're a multi-poster. :lol: :lol:


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## Lee H Sternberg (Jan 27, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> At the boarding kennel I worked at, the oldest, most robust dogs ate stuff like ol' Roy, and Alpo.
> 
> Figure that one out, when your dog is old and dead at 10. These dogs were all over 13 years of age.


Before I got "educated" my last Rott lived to the ripe old age of 12 on Pedigree and smoke.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

The "good" foods are way to hot to feed all the time. Most dogs barely expend any energy during their lives if you think about it, yet we are feeding them as if they are proffesional athletes.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

I do feed Nutro Max. I'm currently feeding 45 dogs the same thing. No problems. Not the most expensive, but certainly seems to be doing ok. Have you ever seen a necropsey on a detector dog? Trust me, second hand smoke is the least of their problems. 

DFrost


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

David Frost said:


> Have you ever seen a necropsey on a detector dog? Trust me, second hand smoke is the least of their problems.
> 
> DFrost


I'm very curious. What would be a common cause or manner of death besides work-related trauma?


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

That would be interesting to me to see what a dog that has worked it's whole life passed from, or what was the prevalent causes. Can you post that stuff ? ? ? ?


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Howard Knauf said:


> .... I was told by the non-smoking instructors that the smoke affects the dogs' night vision as well as their scenting skills. Don't know if it's true or not.


For some reason, this wasn't easy to research. 

I finally found some research abstracts. Cigarette smoke does increase oxidants (byproducts of metabolism that damage cells) and the ones in the eyes and mucus membranes (vision and scent) are particularly susceptible to damage.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Noticible are pockets of pus and scaring from all the nasty stuff dogs inhale. Of course the majority also suffer considerable from worn out joints, vertabrea. I was surprised at the number of compression fractures that were probably never noticed or barely, while the dog was working. the physical trauma is expected. All in all, it's not all that common. 

I don't have stats, wish I did. Probably best a lot of the information isn't available anyway. ha ha.

DFrost


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

The fractures are something that I have wondered about. I have had dogs x rayed for something completely different, and the vet is pointing out old fractures in places that there should not be fractures.

The amount of pain a dog can take has got to be 50 times more than we can, or maybe the nervous system just doesn't work as well.

This is why when I see people with dogs that can barely stand, I want to slap them stupid, and put the dog down. I can not imagine how much pain that would be.

All these dogs NEVER showed any sign of anything broken, and one had a fractured/healed hip. I remember him jumping off the roof, but never saw any signs past the first few seconds after. He was a crazy SOB.

The pus pockets are freaking me out a little.


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## Guest (Nov 20, 2008)

> The amount of pain a dog can take has got to be 50 times more than we can, or maybe the nervous system just doesn't work as well.


Animals in Translation, Chapter 5.

It's stated that that there are strong inferences suggesting that animals feel pain, yes, but they do not _suffer_ to the same degree.

Electrical brain activity in humans shows that when a person is in pain, the higher parts of our brain are the most active. Not only do people experience the sensation of pain, but they emotionally suffer because of it. Chronic pain can mentally debilitate people. Suffering from pain is actually a rather advanced concept.

Animals lack the basic brain anatomy to experience our same abstract preoccupation with pain.

The book also mentions human leucotomy patients which is a less invasive lobotomy where the higher regions are seperated from the rest of the brain; done to treat people in chronic pain. After surgery, the people are still lucid, and report that they do experience the same degree of physical pain, but it _just doesn't bother them as much._ They don't need drugs, because they don't care (as much). Strange concept. Even animals, though, when in pain will _choose_ to take pain killers even if it tastes bad.

Both those patients and animal represent a highly diminished role of the the higher brain regions, and the author believes the sensations of pain are probably comparable.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Sounds like what morphine does.


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## Guest (Nov 20, 2008)

Was it fun? [-X


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Not at the time. I had arterial bleeding, and a tourniquet and about 5 miles to go.

Wouldn't have been a good ad for joining the Marines


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