# Pnuemonia



## Lacey Vessell (Nov 18, 2006)

Was wondering if any of the vets/vet techs or anyone else who has experienced this, can answer a few questions for me. My ol' girl Dunya (Rotty - soon-to-be 13 yrs old) was seen by the vet almost 2 weeks ago and diagnosed with a bacterial infection - the only indication at the time that she was sick, as everything else ie., eating, drinking, stools, urine output, was normal was that she was a little lethargic and *did not greet my husband as she's done all these years everytime he comes home.* She appeared fine and back to her normal self the past 5 days (after heavy doses of Amoxicillin as prescribed)...eating, drinking, no fever and very spunky until this morning. I saw her breathing kinda heavy and heard a slight "rattling" sound, as if from fluid or mucus. After about 2 minutes - nothing...she was breathing just fine and acting as spunky as she always does, eating and drinking. A few hours later she did it again,lasted a minute or two, so I decided to take her to the vet to be on the safe side. We just got back.......She was not breathing any differently then she normally does when we were at the vet but he listened to her lungs and immediately said that chest x-rays were needed. I got to see the X-Rays and she is in the beginning stages of pneumonia. He gave her a shot of Dexamethasone Phosphate and gave me 28 (136 MG) Baytrils to administer to her - 2 at 2x a day. Of course he wants to see her back if things get worse before Friday - when we must return. Is there anything I can do to help her along, other then giving her the meds and of course shower her with affection like we always do I'm kinda worried, because of her age and of course how serious pneuomia can be, that maybe they should have admitted her. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated....

Yeah I know she is old especially for a Rotty, but I'd still like to keep her around as long as possible - before the last couple of weeks one would have never known
she is as old as she is...........


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

What I have read is that dog pneumonia is generally secondary to something.... maybe canine 'flu, maybe a parasitic invasion, maybe kennel cough....

I have also read that dogs who get early treatment (like yours) have a very low mortality rate.

Did the vet say that you should see marked improvement in 48 hours?


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## Lacey Vessell (Nov 18, 2006)

Thanks for responding Connie.....

Big concern of mine is that it is influenza, as from what I read a certain form is highly contagious and I have 3 other dogs that live in the house also ](*,) 

He did not say that I would see improvement in 48 hours - although to be perfectly honest with you other then the 2 episodes that I described - she was acting, eating, drinking etc., like her normal self. She's sleeping now....think maybe a result of the meds and the shot he gave her, breathing normally without any signs of laboring.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Lacey Vessell said:


> She's sleeping now....think maybe a result of the meds and the shot he gave her, breathing normally without any signs of laboring.


That would be the marked improvement. 48 hours after the antibiotic shot would be the time you would try something else if it wasn't "working." If it's gonna help, it's gonna help before 48 hours are up, is the general thought.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Lacey Vessell said:


> Big concern of mine is that it is influenza, as from what I read a certain form is highly contagious and I have 3 other dogs that live in the house also ](*,)


http://www.avma.org/public_health/influenza/canine_guidelines.asp

Did the vet do a blood draw? There IS a test for canine flu. I think it's Cornell that does it; the vet sends the blood sample to them.

I will re-check that. Maybe it was Tufts.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

http://www.thepetcenter.com/gen/canineinfluenza.html

http://www.thepetcenter.com/gen/canineinfluenza.html#Tests


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Lacey Vessell said:


> Big concern of mine is that it is influenza, as from what I read a certain form is highly contagious and I have 3 other dogs that live in the house also ](*,)


Can they be separated at least into different rooms?


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## Lacey Vessell (Nov 18, 2006)

He drew blood and ran a panel the first time I took her there (about a week and a half ago) when he diagnosed her with a bacterial infection. He has not checked specifically for influenza though as far as I know. I'm gonna separate them, but they've been together for the last few weeks already, as the vet assured me that it was nothing contagious Thanks for the links...I'm gonna read up on them


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Lacey Vessell said:


> He drew blood and ran a panel the first time I took her there (about a week and a half ago) when he diagnosed her with a bacterial infection. He has not checked specifically for influenza though as far as I know. I'm gonna separate them, but they've been together for the last few weeks already, as the vet assured me that it was nothing contagious Thanks for the links...I'm gonna read up on them


What was the vet's diagnosis to make him say not contagious? I mean, what did he think the primary ailment was? Just curious.

But anyway, bacterial would mean not 'flu.... unless the 'flu made the dog susceptible to a bacterial infection. You know how that happens to people, too -- bacteria find the immune system at its weaker moment and settle in.

But it sounds like the vet is probably right. The vet was on top of it enough to draw blood and to diagnose bacteria instead of flailing around not knowing and prescribing antibiotics "in case of." I know it sounds amazing, but it happens every day.

JMO.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Lacey Vessell said:


> the vet assured me that it was nothing contagious


Canine flu is not a secret and its existence is not disputed or anything like that, and it made headlines in 2005, so I would guess that your vet would not say that without being pretty darned sure.


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## Lacey Vessell (Nov 18, 2006)

When he diagnosed her the first time as having a bacterial infection - I asked what might have caused it and he said numerous things - she was back to her normal self within a day or two. From what I got from him today...he did not seem to surprised that she was having these breathing problems. I thought kennel cough (although she has been immunized for it) and I dreaded it might be the start of congestive heart failure considering her age, still have my doubts. Guess a second opinion from a different vet might be in order.

Thanks so much AGAIN Connie!


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Lacey Vessell said:


> I thought kennel cough (although she has been immunized for it) and I dreaded it might be the start of congestive heart failure considering her age, still have my doubts.


A second opinion is always good for something like this (or anything you have doubt about).

I would take comfort from the fact that conjestive heart failure wouldn't respond to antibiotics. Or at least, I can't think how it could.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

I just looked up congestive heart failure and antibiotics (just a glance). The only links I saw were for established cases of congestive heart failure that were now exacerbated by a bacterial infection.

But you didn't hear these symptoms for months and months, and then it got worse, right?


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## Lacey Vessell (Nov 18, 2006)

Just an update Connie....they still don't know the cause of the symptoms ie., bacterial infection/pneumonia. We did have an ultrasound of her heart done - her heart looks normal and we did have a specialist view the X-Rays and they came to the same diagnosis - pnuemonia. What they have not figured out is the underlying cause. She is now in a 24 hour care Veterinary Specialty Hospital where hopefully they will figure out why she is not responding to the antibiotics. They intend to do a Aspiration - Transtracheal and then a culture of the fluid they obtain from her lungs to find out just what type of infection she has (fungal, bacterial, or viral) so that they can administer the proper meds to get rid of this thing once and for all. I'm just hoping she makes it through the Sedation right now


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## Al Curbow (Mar 27, 2006)

Lacey, hope all goes well for her!


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Lacey Vessell said:


> I dreaded it might be the start of congestive heart failure considering her age, still have my doubts. Guess a second opinion from a different vet might be in order.


Sorry I didn't see this earlier, Lacey. Been a tough week at school. :roll: But while I was reading your first post, that's the first thing I think of when I hear of older dogs with a cough, but I guess if you've seen a specialists plus an ultrasound, that's heard to argue with. Was there anything out of the ordinary with the sounds from the stethoscope that wasn't related to the pneumonia? We've learned just a little about radiology so far, but an enlarged heart due to congestive heart failure is generally pretty easy to tell from a radiograph (fluid in the lungs and a bigger cardiac silhouette). I've got a program on the Veterinary Information Network where you can put in signs and it offers some diseases to consider, but I got all sorts of differentials, so hard to say. In the blood work, perhaps I missed it, but was there an elevated white cell count? That'd be pretty indicative of infection. Let us know how the cell culture goes.


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## Lacey Vessell (Nov 18, 2006)

Thanks Al! I appreciate your well wishes for her.




Maren Bell Jones said:


> Sorry I didn't see this earlier, Lacey. Been a tough week at school. :roll: But while I was reading your first post, that's the first thing I think of when I hear of older dogs with a cough, but I guess if you've seen a specialists plus an ultrasound, that's heard to argue with. Was there anything out of the ordinary with the sounds from the stethoscope that wasn't related to the pneumonia? We've learned just a little about radiology so far, but an enlarged heart due to congestive heart failure is generally pretty easy to tell from a radiograph (fluid in the lungs and a bigger cardiac silhouette). I've got a program on the Veterinary Information Network where you can put in signs and it offers some diseases to consider, but I got all sorts of differentials, so hard to say. In the blood work, perhaps I missed it, but was there an elevated white cell count? That'd be pretty indicative of infection. Let us know how the cell culture goes.


Sorry it's been a hard week for you Maren, but suck it up :-\" cause people like me need some really good vets out here and I know you'll be one:wink:  

Nope - several vets have listened to her heart today and nothing out of the ordinary. Yup the white cell count was high when my usual vet did the blood work-up. And she had a fever.

She appeared in really good health and spirits until the 3rd of Jan. The bacterial infection was diagnosed on the 5th. At this time there were no breathing problems at all- few days later (after Amoxicillin meds)she was acting like her normal self again -which lasted about 8 days.... then on the morning of the 15th I heard her trying to catch her breath...thought she just drank her water to fast...then a couple hours later she did it again - off we went to the vet. He said that we caught the Pneumonia in its early stages (looking at the X-Rays). Once the Baytril and the Steriod shot did not appear to have any effect (48 hours later) I became concerned that it just might be CHF, but did not voice my concerns to my vet. Brought her back to the vet and he gave her a lacic (sp?) shot and asked me to come back the next day when a specialist would be in along with a radiologist. I looked up what lacic is - to find that they do treat CHF with it so I have a feeling my vet was thinking the same thing (CHF) because she was not responding to the antibiotics. 

She lost close to 12 pounds during this time - although up until today she had been eating her normal amount of food plus some. The hospital vet, where she is staying now, said that she looked dehydrated to her - but she's been drinking more water then she ever has, as I've been keeping track of her water intake and output. 

On the "estimate for service" sheet the hospital gave me, they intend to do the following: Can you give me a clue what some of these tests are actually testing for if you know off-hand, if not I'll research them after I get some sleep?....I'm guessing at least one is for cancer. I have to admit that I was spending more of an effort mentally in trying to keep my composure (not as tough as I thought I was) when I should have been listening to her explanation of the tests:

Radiographs - mestatasis check + interpretation
I-Stat Test EC 8+
PCV/TS
Aspiration - Transtracheal
Culture - Aerobic C/S M020
Blatomyces T525
Cytology - Aspirate CYTO
CBC w/manual diff
I-Stat Test 6+

Of course IV Fluids, Nasal Oxygen and Subsequent unasyn injections

Some of the drugs they have listed are:

Propofol 20 ml vial
Choloramphenicol 1000 mg tab
Enrofloxacin 22.7 mg/ml inj
Misc Injectable Medication (guess this would be antibiotics once they figure out what type of infection it actually is)

Thanks in advance - Soon to be Dr. Jones:mrgreen:


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Oh, I am SO SORRY that this has not cleared up as "plain ol" pneumonia....

If Maren doesn't get a chance to explain those tests, I will look up the ones I don't know (most) in a vet med book and post what I find. (She will know them off-hand.)

The aspiration will tell them exactly what is infecting her, though.

Hang in there.

Don't forget that sedation is not traumatic to the dog.... only to the dog's owner. Not being a smart-a$$.

Please keep us posted.


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## Lacey Vessell (Nov 18, 2006)

She finally got some well-deserved sleep for the first time in a few days - she was sleeping when I called to check on her before going to sleep myself last night. This morning they told me that she actually slept through the night  They have her on oxygen (nasal) as they did blood gases and felt she needed the boost. They did do the Transtracheal Aspiration last night and she made it through the sedation  No info yet on the culture results. I should be getting an update very soon. As she is in ICU, visitation hours are very restrictive - I only get to see her for 10 minutes twice a day which is understandable considering all the tests and treatments that need to be given at specific intervals. Her nurse will call before noon and her Dr will call before 6 each day to keep me appraised - so far........ so good.

The radiologist and the Vets at the hospital said they are seeing an out of the ordinary number of pneumonia cases in the last few months in dogs .....hope it is just a fluke and not another "new bug" out there.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

This sounds very optimistic to me.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

How is she doing?


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## Lacey Vessell (Nov 18, 2006)

After 5 days in the hospital with no improvement, we decided that it was time to bring her home to be around those that loved her and continue her meds here. She actually jumped in the Tahoe (no easy feat for an ol' girl) and seemed very happy to be going home. We kept hoping or trying to convince ourselves that she was getting better but......This morning she took a turn for the worse and was having a really hard time breathing, so as hard as it was for us.....we brought her back to the vet one last time to end her suffering.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Lacey Vessell said:


> After 5 days in the hospital with no improvement, we decided that it was time to bring her home to be around those that loved her and continue her meds here. She actually jumped in the Tahoe (no easy feat for an ol' girl) and seemed very happy to be going home. We kept hoping or trying to convince ourselves that she was getting better but......This morning she took a turn for the worse and was having a really hard time breathing, so as hard as it was for us.....we brought her back to the vet one last time to end her suffering.


I'm so sorry, and so glad you had her at home for a while. 

You did right, as I'm sure you know.

It's so common for older systems (of our species too) to be felled by pneumonia. 

You blessed her with that painless and not-lonely end. And you didn't drag it out. I applaud you for thinking only of her, and not your own pain.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Lacy, sorry for your loss!


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## Amber Scott Dyer (Oct 30, 2006)

Lacy, I just saw this. I'm so very sorry. You've been together a long time; there are no words. My thoughts are with you.


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## Amber Scott Dyer (Oct 30, 2006)

just a reassurance- your vet does sound like they did what they could. It sounds as if they knew what they were doing. 

and if you're still interested
Radiographs - mestatasis check + interpretation (xrays)
I-Stat Test EC 8+ (a quick little blood panel - i think it's just BUN/CREA, ALKP/ALT, GLU, BILI - don't remember what else is in there, but some places use it as a quick inhouse instead of sending stuff out, esp if they don't have the whole inhouse setup)
PCV - (basically its a hematocrit - packed cell volume)
Aspiration - Transtracheal (getting the sample for the cultures)
Culture - Aerobic C/S M020 (testing to see what kind of bact/fungi were in sample; I don't know if they did sensitivities, but that would tell you what antibiotics it would respond to)
Cytology - Aspirate CYTO (staining and checking the cells in the sample)
CBC w/manual diff (complete blood cell count - levels of RBCs, WBCs, platelets, what kinds of WBCs present, etc.)
I-Stat Test 6+ (smaller Istat panel)

Of course IV Fluids, Nasal Oxygen and Subsequent unasyn injections

Some of the drugs they have listed are:

Propofol 20 ml vial (IV anesthetic - usually used for short term procedures or as an induction agent if they're going to intubate)
Choloramphenicol 1000 mg tab
Enrofloxacin 22.7 mg/ml inj (Baytril)
Misc Injectable Medication (guess this would be antibiotics once they figure out what type of infection it actually is)


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Sorry I haven't been around on this thread much. It's been another rough week and next week is even worse. 

Lacey, I'm also very sorry for your loss. I think most dogs would prefer to go out just like she did at home with her family for the last few days. She must have had great care for a 14 year old Rottie. My thoughts are with you.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Lacey, I've been following this thread. I'm so sorry your old gal didn't pull through. I have to 2nd what Maren said about what great care she had for her whole life to make it to 14. It's never easy, no matter how long we have them, and it's never long enough.


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## Lacey Vessell (Nov 18, 2006)

Thanks everyone for your kind words......I really appreciate it.


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## Will Kline (Jan 10, 2008)

Lacey, I am so sorry to hear about your loss. I am sure you did the right thing but that doesn't make it any easier on us when the final choice is made. My prayers are with you and yours.


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## Debbie High (Jul 2, 2006)

Lacey, I am sorry for you lose. It is always difficult to say goodbye to our friends. She'll be waiting at the bridge for you.....

Debbie


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

oh geez, lacey, i was SO hoping....but along with everyone else, my condolences. 14 years of a great life, but gone too soon, too soon...gotta go get a kleenex.


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Oh Lacey...I am so sorry to hear this


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