# Tracking...



## Courtney Guthrie (Oct 30, 2007)

Judge tracking. He does really well IMHO. He did get lost on 2 curves which was my fault, I wasn't thinking when I layed the track and I've never done curves or anything like that with him, just straight tracks with 90deg. Lefts and rights. Also, this was in a new area, where we had never tracked before, close to a road and sidewalk where lots of people walked and were walking. So this was really his first time in a high distraction environment while tracking, normally we track in the hay fields or out in the boonies etc. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y_7VPcuoL-c


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## Donna DeYoung (Jan 29, 2010)

is it just me, or is this dog really tracking or is he just hunting food treats? He shows good concentration on the task he is doing, tho.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Are you asking for input or are you just showing how your dog is working?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

being very new to FST..I would like to see some input...


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

My only suggestions are hide the food better. He is smelling for it when he gets close. Do not let him advance unless his nose in a foot print...

on park grass like where cleats, and just walk. This will make him pin point the smell much better. No stomping them in. And wait a bit longer after you lay the track. He's smelling a lot of scent of the foot prints. 

A police k9 guy, also a national level competetior told me, it's easier for a dog to find (pinpoint) a roach in the ash tray then a pound in the trunk

I also do some tracks the the first leg the dog gets no treats till 100+ steps. I would suggest removing some food in the track There was so much food on that track he was eating and not tracking. At first he may stop and be confused....I am guessing most of your tracks are like this one. And if I am right he most likely we begin to second guess himself because he is not finding any food.

one more. Next time you want to introduce a new terrian....do not make the track hard. Just 100 paces, article, done. Then build off that.


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## Courtney Guthrie (Oct 30, 2007)

I appreciate any input. Especially cause I know how he normally tracks. This was a new area with new distractions, he could've done better and he could've done worse. I know that he could've done better if I wouldn't have been in such a hurry. 

90% of the time in our normal tracks, he tracks over the top of the food. I never stomp the grass, always lay it in a causal walk. 

I do still put food in every footstep, I'll change it up tonight and see what happens. 

Thanks for the tips.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Do you also belong to a club and track with club training director or other club members or other schutzhund buddies?


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## Courtney Guthrie (Oct 30, 2007)

Yeap. I track with them weekly and then track everyday by ourselves usaully. Sometimes, I go to the local AKC tracking club and track with them once a week too. 

The TD likes how he is coming along so far. I tend to not have patience and tracking is one area where I haven't screwed him up by getting frustrated. We do need to reduce the amount of food and up the lengths, he is capable of tracking a lot better(and has) than what the video shows but I figured I'd post it anyway.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

it looks like you have a niced dog I think you may need a bit of hands on guidance your self are I think susan might be thinking the same thing


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## Courtney Guthrie (Oct 30, 2007)

Go figure. Me need guidance.. That is the story of my life with this dog. 

You're probably right, I see some things I don't like in the video and I don't track with the others as much as I should, we really, just once a week. 

I'd be interested to what you guys are seeing, I see some things but I'm curious about what others see. Please let me know, post it or PM, I don't care either way.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Mike Scheiber said:


> it looks like you have a niced dog I think you may need a bit of hands on guidance your self are I think susan might be thinking the same thing


I think you need a little guidance also. Overall the dog looks fine, there are just a few minor things that are planting seeds of big problems latter on. For instance, your dog is casting at time, and that's OK. The problem is that he is casting and using the food to find the track again. So this is what you are training:



The dog gets off the track
dog cast about and gets anxious
*dog get rewarded with treat for casting *


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## Courtney Guthrie (Oct 30, 2007)

OK. I've been wondering about the getting off the track and then coming back to it. Thanks for that. I'll talk to my TD about it and get it fixed. I have been trying to NOT create bigger problems for myself later, I tend to get frustrated and it happens. lol 

I do appreciate the advice and constructive criticism!


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

So everyone here sees a problem/ or problems. So where are the solutions?

Here are mine, These are lessons learned from my own tracking mistakes

- kick those tracks in a little more. make it clear in the dogs head that the scent is different in the footstep and not. you can fade this out as the dog gets better. Mark Soccacio taught me that one.

- age the track at least 20 minutes ( I age mine for hours now). I believe the dog is casting because there is scent there. Aging the track will disperse the scent that plummed out of the footstep. All that scent is bit overwhelming for the dog. They can smell just a teeny bit of broken vegetation from 6 inches.

- do not move forward unitl the dog is indicating a step. 

-stop talking so much. Just let her figure it out. And if you do talk, keep really subtle and soft. Tracking is a calm, methodical exercise.

- do not worry about the dog not eating all the food. If the dog is tracking, and passing food up. who cares the idea is to track not eat.

- Make your footsteps in a straight line...not side by side like a natural walk. Some dogs will learn to just a pick a side and go. Then they miss corners. Ivan taught me that one.

-bury those treats deep, so the dog has to work to get them out. David Greene said he even digs a hole about 1.5 inches down in the earth and puts a treat in the hole.

-Watch your line. Some people keep tension, so keep a little slack, some dogs will just go and tighten up the leash. Whatever you do, be consistent. Any change in the normal tension may cause the dog to get excited, worried....think they are doing something wrong...whatever.

- quit using the tupper ware. First they smell like whats ever in them. second, if your jackpotting rewards and your dog is skipping food on the track, but loves the jackpot food. You have just made the food on the track less valuable.Third, The dog is going to look with his eyes for that thing. Use an article to mark the end. Keep that tupperware in your vest and give it to him when he reaches the article. You do not have to down the dog on the article, just be ready when the dog crosses over the article to give your jackpot.

- Do not worry about speed...the rules say the pace has to be consistent.So if the dog is consistent when there no food present...cool. They may speed up when they get to the food. but do not worry, there will be no food on a trial track.

-I do not use correction on the track. I have seen it clean up a corner or an article...only to cause problems later. 

-I do not do many straight lines. the dog learns to trust the straight line and just goes. Though your dog is a bit more careful than mine. So, you could be alright.

-turns are my nemisis. This the program I am following right now.and I am having great success....and we will see if it holds up in trial...Because nothing is successful till holds up on trial day.

And I agree with Chris on that your dog is smelling for the food and getting a little hectic when he smells it. I do not agree though, that your reiforcing the casting. I doubt the dog is smart enough to come up with the idea that casting is what making him get his treat. I think he's casting cause that's where the scent goes. That's it. If the track is aged and the scent only remains in the footstep. he will stop casting....It's not like heeling, where if you reward for forging thats what you get. The scent is just acting like a carrot on a string and luring him into casting. And finding a reward after it, just that what he was doing was successful....which is not casting, but following the scent. Make sense? If the scent moves, his behavior will also change.



http://www.siriusdog.com/tracking-dog-k9-serpentine-tracks.htm

The disclaimer. I have a good dog, whom never quits. But we have struggled on trial day. The tips above are what I have learned through my struggle.



* and do not mad at that dog. He is trying. He's got all the talent you need. It's his teacher who is just learning how to do this. Be patient, and the worst absolute worst thing you can do to a dog in tracking is lose your cool. get mad at him, and the areas you problems with now, you will no longer have areas.* make sense?

And one more thing. If your dog has a perfect track, he did not learn jack shit.


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## Courtney Guthrie (Oct 30, 2007)

Thank you James. I'll try a few of those when I track him this evening. I'll try and get some video, we'll see how it works out. 

I've been told a lot by my TD and friends to SHUT UP and quit talking to the dog, he is doing fine and all my jabbering does is confuse, excite, frustrate etc. etc. etc. It's something I've been working on.

Thanks for the link as well! 

My dog never quits despite his handler's issues.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Oh one more thing... If the dog does lift his head, searches after losing the track, or looks confused. let them work it out. If they need a gentle reassurance go ahead and give it. But just enough to get them going again. When they finish the track or even just get to the next stopping point like an article. Praise them, and maybe end it there. That lifting of the head, searching and confusion is all part of the learning process. If the dog has drive to track, that stuff will go away as the dog becomes confident in what it is suppose to do. Like I said, someone who says thier dog never does these things...is either full of shit or thier dog has not learned anything.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Courtney how old is your dog and how long have you been working on tracking with him?


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

susan tuck said:


> Courtney how old is your dog and how long have you been working on tracking with him?


How many tracks have you done this question is sort of important.


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## Courtney Guthrie (Oct 30, 2007)

Umm....Honestly? Less than 100 tracks. I fooled around with scent pads when he was little, then he didn't see a track till he was 9 months old tracked him a grand total of 2x. Then in the last 3 months we have been working on it more and more. 

I just counted in my training journal and he has run exactly 94 tracks to this point. That is including what we did as a puppy. 

I really slacked with tracking until recently. I know, I'm bad but whatever. Now we have been tracking daily for the last 6 weeks. 

He will be 3 years old this friday.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Courtney Guthrie said:


> Umm....Honestly? Less than 100 tracks. I fooled around with scent pads when he was little, then he didn't see a track till he was 9 months old tracked him a grand total of 2x. Then in the last 3 months we have been working on it more and more.
> 
> I just counted in my training journal and he has run exactly 94 tracks to this point. That is including what we did as a puppy.
> 
> ...


It sounds like you track alone mostly? How often do you get out with your TD and club or group how often are you getting guidance or lessons/homework are you asking for help from your crew.
I'm asking this cause if your tracking every day for 6 weeks things should prolly be in better order. 100 tracks no matter if there puppy stuff and what not is a decent amount especially this last 6 weeks run you have done.


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## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

Fresh cut grass does not hold scent as there is too much scent everywhere to begin with, makes it harder for a green dog to get a good foundation. Taller uncut grass or a dirt field will be better for the initial foundation work. Also there is no intensity in the dog. So in short the dog needs a better venue and higher intensity, the venue is the easy part while building intensity takes some doing if it is not there genetically.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Some great advise for you here. I don't have anything to add at this point. I hope you will continue to keep us apprised of you and Judge's progress.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Courtney Guthrie said:


> Umm....Honestly? Less than 100 tracks. I fooled around with scent pads when he was little, then he didn't see a track till he was 9 months old tracked him a grand total of 2x. Then in the last 3 months we have been working on it more and more.
> 
> I just counted in my training journal and he has run exactly 94 tracks to this point. That is including what we did as a puppy.
> 
> ...


 
you said you do food in every step right now....Correct? I just want to make sure I got that right. That's 94 tracks where food was in every step, correct?


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## Sarah ten Bensel (Mar 16, 2008)

James Downey;210098
-turns are my nemisis. This the program I am following right now.and I am having great success....and we will see if it holds up in trial...Because nothing is successful till holds up on trial day.
.[/QUOTE said:


> What program is that - I would like to know!


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## Courtney Guthrie (Oct 30, 2007)

Yes, I do food in every step and have been forever so far. I track with the group and others maybe 2x a month, try to weekly and have the last 2 weeks but yeah not as much as I'd like. 

As far as intensity goes, no worries there. I have a great dog with a good solid pedigree and lines that are AWESOME! 

He may not be perfect at tracking and more than likely should be doing better than he is, more than likely he isn't cause of me! 

Also, As I stated this was in an unfamiliar new environment, we usaully track on dirt and other way out areas. Also, forgot to mention but this was done in the evenine and it was still 85degrees out, he is used to working in the heat though. 

I appreciate the advice and criticism and will definetely try some of what has been suggested! Thank you guys.

ETA- I do not tend to ask for help until something is f8cked up and I need it. I wait too long as it is hard for me to ask for help. Asking for help makes me feel stupid and like I should "KNOW" what to do without asking. My TD is great and would help me more if I asked. I need to be a little more humble and put my pride aside to ask for help before I "really" need it.


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## Sarah ten Bensel (Mar 16, 2008)

Oh I forgot a few questions and share what I have been doing with my young dog/puppy Pele

I have heard that a dog should be restrained when it casts or leaves the track. I have thought long and hard about this. I wonder if the dog begins to rely on this restraining/ redirecting, etc instead of learning to solve the problem he is facing. I am trying to not interfere with Pele working the track as much as possible. I let go of the line and sometimes just stand back and watch, sometimes I follow or go next to him. He just continues. I will step on the line if he goes too far off to check something out. I will say nothing, I won't look at him-- he finds his way back to the track.

I looked at the sirius dog link that Mr. Downey posted. This seems much more like what I have been doing with Pele. However, I started with circles based on Ivan Balabanov. Been doing those since the beginning. Now I am "progressing" to serpentines. I like the circle concept becuase Pele gets to work the wind from all directions. Only recently I have begun to put food in every third step and once or twice in the track go 5 paces before bait. Its throwing him a bit but I thinkhe is learning. I have found aging the tracks to be very helpful as well as hiding the bait like mentioned before. The oldest we've done is about 50 minutes. Whats interesting to me is that a schH 1 track is aged 20-30 minutes and actually that seems like tough time frame because the secondary scent can be confusing to work through as can the 45 minute mark when a track may go from primary scent to just track scent (depending on the conditions)
Some people really hate tracking. I find all the training variables, conditions, etc to be a great challenge. I do have to remember to be patient and build my plan carefully. I may be totally wrong in my approach, but so far i am getting Pele to concentrate and work it out in a slow manner. I guess more will be revealed later as he develops.

Good luck with Judge. I just bought my first camcorder so now I can tape and watch to try and learn something.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Sarah ten Bensel said:


> What program is that - I would like to know!


 
There is a link in the post....just point and click.


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## Sarah ten Bensel (Mar 16, 2008)

James Downey said:


> There is a link in the post....just point and click.


Duh. I got it - just didn't register in my head at the time I responded. Thanks!


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Sarah ten Bensel said:


> Oh I forgot a few questions and share what I have been doing with my young dog/puppy Pele
> 
> I have heard that a dog should be restrained when it casts or leaves the track. I have thought long and hard about this. I wonder if the dog begins to rely on this restraining/ redirecting, etc instead of learning to solve the problem he is facing. I am trying to not interfere with Pele working the track as much as possible. I let go of the line and sometimes just stand back and watch, sometimes I follow or go next to him. He just continues. I will step on the line if he goes too far off to check something out. I will say nothing, I won't look at him-- he finds his way back to the track.
> 
> .


Sarah. your thinking is correct and it's something to watch for. But what a lot of people will do is let the dog head down the track, casting and heading in the general direction of the track but not actually on the track. the dog learns to follow the air scent. They will miss turns, articles....eventually losing the foot step track and failing. The dog has to learn the only way to go forward is to put it's nose in a footstep. but handling the line is probably the one area where I have had a lot of problems. I would steer the dog in training and then not be able to do it trialing. So your assement is correct. This where some "feel" comes in. And experience is the only teacher for that.

it sounds like you recently have done a Ivan Seminar. He loves that drop the leash and let them go stuff too.


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## James Downey (Oct 27, 2008)

Courtney Guthrie said:


> Yes, I do food in every step and have been forever so far. I track with the group and others maybe 2x a month, try to weekly and have the last 2 weeks but yeah not as much as I'd like.
> 
> As far as intensity goes, no worries there. I have a great dog with a good solid pedigree and lines that are AWESOME!
> 
> ...


 
Courtney. I have to ask....Why food in every footstep for so long. I mean 100 tracks. When you pull the food up. Then your tracking. Right now, your dog is just eating. I know that's a part of the evolution. But what are you waiting for? You have to up the anty a little bit.


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## Courtney Guthrie (Oct 30, 2007)

IDK...what I've been waiting for. Especially cause he tracks over a lot of it. Like I said, I have a hard time asking for help. I'm gonna talk to my TD and see what he is thinking and reccomends.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I read James' post and I'm more or less on those lines. Don't know what "kick in" the track means though.

Also speed: some dogs can track accurately with speed, some can't. I honestly wouldn't want my dog to be too fast.

Sarah ten Bensel mentions corrections as "help". I've often thought of this, especially with the new to tracking dog. I prefer the dog to lead me to the end and if at first he has a little trouble on staying on the track but gets to the end, I'm satisfied. Later, when the dog can track confidently but makes as though he wants to leave the track, I correct, verbally, softly or harder, according to the severity of the "crime". A dog that has learned to track has no reason to leave it but.......and this is where "reading your dog" comes into it.

Very often, the inexperienced handler will let himself be pulled to the track start, will let the dog surge forward and not realise that the dog has absolutely not picked up any scent at all. The plentiful food on the track will give them the feeling he knows what he's doing but, usually, only after about 50-70 paces, if you're lucky, does the big "sniffer" actually find the track! 

I heel my dog to the start; when he was young I fed him up to the start but now I insist he heels and doesn't try to pull me to the start. Some place their dog in down, also good, it let's him get a whiff of the track. Mine gets anxious to start so I don't do this.

The start to a track is of extreme importance. Some make a square immediately before the track and put a bit of food in it, others stand 1-2 minutes at the start, walk with short paces for about 15 metres and then walk normally.

Only when the dog can do a straight, semi-circle, slalom, diagonal to start track etc. on all sort of terrains, would I begin on corners. Someone (I forget who) once said that if a dog can track on these, the corners will be no problem.

Food on the track should be reduced in time so that it is only intermittently placed. lI often walk a few paces and then put food down but never regularly. These canines can count :twisted:

As long as the dog is searching, mouth closed, eyes open!!

If you believe your dog can track, let an experienced handler lay the track, hold the line, and you walk next to him. The same goes for if you believe your dog can't track.

I think that Schutzhund has encouraged people to lay tracks as they are laid at the trial. This can be a terrible mistake. The dogs learn to follow a certain patten but are often not tracking.

If you have no trust in your dog, try night tracking or even better, take a good tracking handler with you, blindfold yourself and let your dog lead you to success. 

These are all thoughts that have derived from my absolutely idiotic begin in tracking.


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

these are a few things that a learning over the past couple of weeks.

One guy told me food in every step for the first year or so.
wind direction doesn't matter.
create a routine
kick in the tracks to expose some dirt.
smaller steps, mid step to mid step
tension on the line

Now this may not work for your dog courtney but quit honestly, I would take the way my mali has been tracking over yours. He nails those corners every time.

My routine is to mix the food in front of him. I let him lick the sardine can lid. Then I go lay the track. I get him amped up for tracking. I leave a little food in the bowl and when we're finished, I let him eat the rest of the bowl. Eventually there will be less food on the track and more in the bowl.

I don't let him sniff anything on the field, I hold his head up from the ground by his collar before we start and as soon as we're finished. Sometimes I don't let him finish the whole jack pot and that drives him nuts.

this is what is working for me now. I'm not giving advice, just telling you what works for me.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Food in every footstep for a YEAR? 
Food in every footstep in 100 tracks?

OMG...is this average?

I don't know jack about SCH FST tracking, but I am already liking it less by reading this...to me it looks like the dog is eating food placed every foot or so, moving around, hunting for it....forgive my ignorance, I just don't see this as what I think of as "tracking"...

I did get the book you loaned me yesterday Faisal, I appreciate it..Hopefully get to start reading it tonight....

I know my dog loves to track, has a lot of drive to track...will track a man 1000 paces into the woods for a bite, consistently..will track the same for a tug or a dumbell at the end...obviously not perfect FST...some casting..gets right back on it though ...but the drive is there...

100 tracks? a year?

I was already contemplating removing some of the food, and we have tracked less than 20 times....

dear god....please give me the strength and the will to go on....


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## Courtney Guthrie (Oct 30, 2007)

Chris Michalek said:


> these are a few things that a learning over the past couple of weeks.
> 
> One guy told me food in every step for the first year or so.
> wind direction doesn't matter.
> ...


Chris, Thanks. I definetely PREFER the way my dog is tracking over watching that Mali of yours, to each their own, Judge is confident on the track, not overly worried about me and has drive. Albeit, sometimes gets a bit confused cause I do something that isn't exactly right. (Judge usaully nails all his corners, he didn't this time cause I introduced too much new on new ground etc.) 

My TD watched the video, yelled at me for videoing while I was handling him and then asked me what the hell I was worried about? He said that we do need to cut down the food, keep tracking him in new environments and also expose him to curves and serpentines more. This was the first time he had saw either of those in a new distraacting environment, got yelled at for that one too. 

So, I'm fairly confident that our tracking is coming together as it should be and will come together even better now, thanks to some of the advice here and my TD. 

I do heel him to the field Gillian, That is why there is no video until I stopped and then started him on the track. I try and get his focus a little before the track and I figure it will be a good habit for trial day. I do change the pattern up fairly often.

I appreciate the help!!!

ETA- Joby with my dog, you put a decoy at the end of a track and he is awesome, tracks him well, and accurately. But with this footstep to foostep tracking like they want in Sch. He is not nears as good. I do try and change it up a little every once in awhile for him. He does do some casting but nothing bad. 

I'll be weaning some food off the track, food on the track for a whole year, ehh. Not my thing. Wind direction DOES play a huge part in tracking, TRUE tracking. The wind blows the scent around....IMHO a good dog will find the SCENT not just keep going footstep to footstep. Anyway, yeah, I don't think that is average. Your dog is younger and you've probably started her in tracking by now, I waited a long time and am just now serious about it.


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## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

Each dog is different and moving from 100% bait (every footstep has food) to say 5-10% bait (1 in 10 or 20 footsteps has bait) can happen in 2-4 months or a bit longer. Now is when the definitions come in, by 2-4 months I mean the dog is tracked 4-5 times a week during this time. If one tracks a couple of times a month, it will take many many years to progress to zero food (if at all).


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Courtney Guthrie said:


> Chris, Thanks. I definetely PREFER the way my dog is tracking over watching that Mali of yours, to each their own, Judge is confident on the track, not overly worried about me and has drive. Albeit, sometimes gets a bit confused cause I do something that isn't exactly right. (Judge usaully nails all his corners, he didn't this time cause I introduced too much new on new ground etc.)
> 
> My TD watched the video, yelled at me for videoing while I was handling him and then asked me what the hell I was worried about? He said that we do need to cut down the food, keep tracking him in new environments and also expose him to curves and serpentines more. This was the first time he had saw either of those in a new distraacting environment, got yelled at for that one too.
> 
> ...


I dunno Courtney. We were on a new surface this morning and I tracked him a 1/4 mile with two turns. Didn't lift his head once, never stopped moving forward, didn't cast once and nailed both corners. 

I'm totally confident the dog can track now.

I'm going to track him everyday for the next two weeks. Then he's going to be heavily feed while I'm working for two weeks, the last two days of being kenneled he's going to be starved and we'll get back to tracking everyday until the end of the year.


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## Courtney Guthrie (Oct 30, 2007)

Congrats Chris! 

Fasial- You are very right in that every dog is different. I haven't had the time to really track my dog and start working on it seriously. I work 2 jobs and take care of my grandma, family comes first. I know I have a good dog and will title him eventually when I'm ready. My club trains once a week. I'm not going to conform and keep pushing myself, my dog and frustrating the both of us, because some people on an internet forum think that my dog should already be titled, which he should if he was with a better handler. I've learned to quit pushing the dog, cheating and taking shortcuts because they do no good.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Dogs aren't all that different Courtney, but folks is!!! Why don't you and Chris go tracking together and work it out between you. Guess if I come back here in 10 years, neither of you will have grasped the finer points lol..


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## Courtney Guthrie (Oct 30, 2007)

Gillian- I do fine,Thanks. I definetely grasp the finer points of things and LEARN new things every day. I appreciate the advice you've given me and look forward to implementing it!


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## Jason Mann (Jul 12, 2010)

Video was nice. Seems like you're working at it and frankly that's a lot more than most people do. The only bit of advice I have is the article at the end of the track. I was having problems (that is me, not my dog) so I started teaching article indication separately then adding it to the track once the dog had learned how to down to indicate. I now do this with every dog I start in tracking. You may want to try it, you may not. Either way, nice video.


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