# Teaching the OUT command for puppies



## Howard Gaines III

How do you teach the OUT command with puppies and still keep the high drive attitude?


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## Lisa Radcliffe

Howard Gaines III said:


> How do you teach the OUT command with puppies and still keep the high drive attitude?


Start with the right genetics and "high Drives" are not a issue


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## Sarah Platts

I make it a game. But when you are dealing with mouthy Mals or grabby GSDs you have a different set of problems than I do with my GSPs. My breed lacks the possessiveness of others. Plus they're bird dogs. They don't get to keep anything they bring anyway so maybe it's the genetics.


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## Logan Payton

I go dead until he lets go. I have not put a command to the behavior yet because he isn't solid in it yet. Sometimes he won't let go for a while and it takes patience. When he does let go I immediately reward with another bite.


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## Lisa Radcliffe

Lisa Radcliffe said:


> Start with the right genetics and "high Drives" are not a issue


Sorry I wanted to finish the question! I don't "out" puppies just start with 2 ball and with tug training trade for another tug just to build trust then go to one ball one tug and hold tug still wait it out and then rebite. Not as much conflict with this later on. Never have had a drive problem because I spend a lot of time to get the right pup! I made a lot of conflict with my first dog with a forced out because that was how I was told when I started! never go back to that!


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## lannie dulin

Pick them up and start to turn them upside down in the direction of rear over front. The pup will drop the tug as instinct and there is no conflict. Mark that with "out" before you do it. 

However, you'll need to mix in grabbing their waste and not doing this so they don't automatically release whenever someone touches their waste.


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## Matt Vandart

lannie dulin said:


> Pick them up and start to turn them upside down in the direction of rear over front. *The pup will drop the tug as instinct* and there is no conflict. Mark that with "out" before you do it.
> 
> However, you'll need to mix in grabbing their waste and not doing this so they don't automatically release whenever someone touches their waste.


Lol, mine didn't but then she is a bit nuts.....


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## Frank Hutto

I do the Ivan/Ellis thing where you lock up tight and wait the pup out. Eventually they realize there is not satisfaction and they'll let go. As soon as they do, reward with another bite. I like to do it pretty early too, but I do want the pup showing proper biting technique and play behavior with me before I do it.


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## Bob Scott

Ivan method! Lock up till the dog lets go then mark and reward with a re-bite. 
For those that don't want the dog to let go on a passive bite it's just a matter of build in movement a little at a time.
That's not done till the out is really solid on a passive bite. 
When it's solid on a moving bite then the helper can bring up the fight in the dog.


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## Jay Quinn

Frank Hutto said:


> I do the Ivan/Ellis thing where you lock up tight and wait the pup out. Eventually they realize there is not satisfaction and they'll let go. As soon as they do, reward with another bite. I like to do it pretty early too, but I do want the pup showing proper biting technique and play behavior with me before I do it.


This...


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## Steve Burger

Bark, bite, pull, carry, hold, out, repeat.

If the puppy is taught to hold it will make the out easy. Use a big tug. After making them hold (by their side not in front/confronational, then take the tug to the ground and stand on it. If they still will not let go pull the leash (held very close and attached to a pinch collar) toward the prey object. When the puppy lets go, mark the out with "out" command. Then do not re-enage the puppy until it starts barking. The out command becomes the cue to bark and stimulate movement of the tug by the handler.Then quickly allow a re-bite.


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## rick smith

interesting thread. 

- i agree with lots of these techniques but what i find funny is that i can't remember seeing a vid of a "pup" being taught the out since i've been on this forum 
- maybe i've got a bad memory or maybe my idea of a pup is not the same as other's

- but i've seen lots of clips pups being encouraged to chase/grab/hold/build grip, etc etc
- and seen quite a few vids of young dogs being pulled off of their grip, choked off etc., but never seen any of the techniques that have been posted except for some vids of Steve's group working on building fight drive for IPO using tugs/sleeves that involved some outing...but not at the young pup stage
- most vids here show the pups and young dogs being given the tug/sleeve, etc. after they "win it" and are then encouraged to run off with it

which makes me curious about what age you start teaching it, and at what stage of the puppy development.
- And do you think you can start training this too early and Fk up the pup ????
- when it's "ready" ?
- after the grip is solid, and how do you determine that ?
- when it gets too possessive ?


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## Matt Vandart

rick smith said:


> interesting thread.
> 
> - i agree with lots of these techniques but what i find funny is that i can't remember seeing a vid of a "pup" being taught the out since i've been on this forum
> - maybe i've got a bad memory or maybe my idea of a pup is not the same as other's
> 
> - but i've seen lots of clips pups being encouraged to chase/grab/hold/build grip, etc etc
> - and seen quite a few vids of young dogs being pulled off of their grip, choked off etc., but never seen any of the techniques that have been posted except for some vids of Steve's group working on building fight drive for IPO using tugs/sleeves that involved some outing...but not at the young pup stage
> - most vids here show the pups and young dogs being given the tug/sleeve, etc. after they "win it" and are then encouraged to run off with it
> 
> which makes me curious about what age you start teaching it, and at what stage of the puppy development.
> - And do you think you can start training this too early and Fk up the pup ????
> - when it's "ready" ?
> - after the grip is solid, and how do you determine that ?
> - when it gets too possessive ?


Towards the end of this vid:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MsJv6UmiogQ


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## Logan Payton

Matt Vandart said:


> Towards the end of this vid:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MsJv6UmiogQ


She is super cute. Couple of things I noticed:

1. Sometimes your timing is a bit off...you give her reward THEN "YESSSSSS"...I would try to ensure you are offering the verbal marker just before the treat or she may begin to associate the wrong behavior.
2. I wouldn't put a command to the out when she isn't solid in the behavior. You are asking "out....out....out" and she isn't outing thus reinforcing that she doesn't have to until she wants to which is obviously counter-productive. 
3. Maybe you need a cup while playing with her hehee :twisted::-o:mrgreen:

I could be totally 1,000% wrong and someone else may come along and tell me to STFU..except #3. I stand by #3.


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## Matt Vandart

Thanks  she was a very cute puppy.
This is from back when I pretty much started marker training so I wasn't too good at it, dunno if I am any better now lol, but I get by with it. 
Maybe I am as Alis (another Mal pup) got a solid out very quickly


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## Lisa Radcliffe

rick smith said:


> interesting thread.
> 
> - i agree with lots of these techniques but what i find funny is that i can't remember seeing a vid of a "pup" being taught the out since i've been on this forum
> - maybe i've got a bad memory or maybe my idea of a pup is not the same as other's
> 
> - but i've seen lots of clips pups being encouraged to chase/grab/hold/build grip, etc etc
> - and seen quite a few vids of young dogs being pulled off of their grip, choked off etc., but never seen any of the techniques that have been posted except for some vids of Steve's group working on building fight drive for IPO using tugs/sleeves that involved some outing...but not at the young pup stage
> - most vids here show the pups and young dogs being given the tug/sleeve, etc. after they "win it" and are then encouraged to run off with it
> 
> which makes me curious about what age you start teaching it, and at what stage of the puppy development.
> - And do you think you can start training this too early and Fk up the pup ????
> - when it's "ready" ?
> - after the grip is solid, and how do you determine that ?
> - when it gets too possessive ?


imo when to start the "out" depends on the pups character and the trust and bond you have. I start the vocal out when they start offering it up and the grip and target are good. I have 3 possessive dogs 2 young I train them all a little different. My main concern at this point in my training is my bond! I think the handlers ambitions play into how they train their dogs and I agree it can FK up a pup. Making them hold, standing on the tug and the sleeve then using a pinch collar all these things cause conflict with young dogs. If you have a eye for it you can see that conflict when watching a team together. I basically do Ivans method just not in the beginning. There is always conflict hiding there even when trained with positive training! so why don't people worry more about the bond first? because it takes time!


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## Frank Hutto

rick smith said:


> interesting thread.
> 
> - i agree with lots of these techniques but what i find funny is that i can't remember seeing a vid of a "pup" being taught the out since i've been on this forum
> - maybe i've got a bad memory or maybe my idea of a pup is not the same as other's
> 
> - but i've seen lots of clips pups being encouraged to chase/grab/hold/build grip, etc etc
> - and seen quite a few vids of young dogs being pulled off of their grip, choked off etc., but never seen any of the techniques that have been posted except for some vids of Steve's group working on building fight drive for IPO using tugs/sleeves that involved some outing...but not at the young pup stage
> - most vids here show the pups and young dogs being given the tug/sleeve, etc. after they "win it" and are then encouraged to run off with it
> 
> which makes me curious about what age you start teaching it, and at what stage of the puppy development.
> - And do you think you can start training this too early and Fk up the pup ????
> - when it's "ready" ?
> - after the grip is solid, and how do you determine that ?
> - when it gets too possessive ?


My current pup, who will be a year in a few days, was somewhere around 16-17 wks when I taught the out, but it's the development rather than the age that's important to me when I start it. Some pups are late bloomers and some aren't, so it's different for all pups. 

Do I think starting too early could screw things up? Sure. That's why I like certain behaviors from the pup first. Here are a couple of clips of my pup when he was younger to show you what I like to see first. The first was when he was 9.5 wks and the other is at 15 wks. At this point I had not started the out yet.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fxN2-XklYc8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MCVlWxr18ik

In the first clip you can tell he's got a genetic, solid grip. I was just promoting what was already there and reinforcing to keep that grip with the light taps on the tug. In the second clip you can see the progression he's made. He's barking. He's showing understanding of what to do while biting by countering. And he's showing what to do after it's been slipped by carrying and holding. At around the 2:42 mark of the second video you'll see him spit out the sleeve. No out was given there, nor had I ever directly worked on the out - he had just learned the routine by this point, and while he likes to possess the prey, he prefers to fight. Now I don't think the dog needs to be throwing the out behavior before starting it as he did here, that was just how it happened here. So from that I learned two things: he was ready for the out and that I also needed to work on him holding until I tell him to let go. 

Unfortunately, I don't have a video of when I trained the out. It was one of those situations where I saw the perfect opportunity, so I went for it. We were playing tug and for whatever reason he was amped up big time and was getting a bit thrashy. I tried to get him to counter in because I didn't want him thrashing, but nobody was home if you know what I mean. I happened to be kneeling down, so I did the Ivan lock up thing by pinning it under my knees, so he couldn't thrash or really do anything. Within a short time somebody came home and he let go. It went smooth. He'll be a year in a few days and it has stuck with no issues. 

A couple of caveats about the lock up method. If they get too physically strong, it can be impossible to hold still enough. Also, if they're naturally highly possessive and/or they've learned to self-satisfy on dead prey items, the lock up method doesn't always go as smooth. That doesn't mean it won't work just as well, it's always my starting point, but I had a pup that it did not work with at all despite showing all the development I like to see first. He was just as content holding it in his mouth with me locked up as he was actually tugging with me - I think he came out of the womb capable of self satisfying on dead prey items. He'd eventually let go during the session, but it would take forever and it would never carry over to the next session. I think it was because he'd only let go when he decided he was ready and never saw the lock up as unrewarding. Now don't get me wrong, I like my dogs to have some possessiveness and be able to hold a grip like I described, but as they mature and get mentally and/or physically stronger the lock up may not always be the most effective.


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## Matt Vandart

Frank Hutto said:


> A couple of caveats about the lock up method. If they get too physically strong, it can be impossible to hold still enough. Also, if they're naturally highly possessive and/or they've learned to self-satisfy on dead prey items, the lock up method doesn't always go as smooth. That doesn't mean it won't work just as well, it's always my starting point, but I had a pup that it did not work with at all despite showing all the development I like to see first. He was just as content holding it in his mouth with me locked up as he was actually tugging with me - *I think he came out of the womb capable of self satisfying on dead prey items.* *He'd eventually let go during the session, but it would take forever and it would never carry over to the next session. I think it was because he'd only let go when he decided he was ready and never saw the lock up as unrewarding.* Now don't get me wrong, I like my dogs to have some possessiveness and be able to hold a grip like I described, but as they mature and get mentally and/or physically stronger the lock up may not always be the most effective.


The pup I posted was like this, took ages to get her to out even that well, still having issues, not blaming the dog by the way Rick.


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## Rob Maltese

I'm currently working the two ball method I learned from my PDK9 friend, fairly simple & understandable. Only started today, worked very well once he grasped the concept.


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## Bob Scott

rick smith said:


> interesting thread.
> 
> - i agree with lots of these techniques but what i find funny is that i can't remember seeing a vid of a "pup" being taught the out since i've been on this forum
> - maybe i've got a bad memory or maybe my idea of a pup is not the same as other's
> 
> - but i've seen lots of clips pups being encouraged to chase/grab/hold/build grip, etc etc
> - and seen quite a few vids of young dogs being pulled off of their grip, choked off etc., but never seen any of the techniques that have been posted except for some vids of Steve's group working on building fight drive for IPO using tugs/sleeves that involved some outing...but not at the young pup stage
> - most vids here show the pups and young dogs being given the tug/sleeve, etc. after they "win it" and are then encouraged to run off with it
> 
> which makes me curious about what age you start teaching it, and at what stage of the puppy development.
> - And do you think you can start training this too early and Fk up the pup ????
> - when it's "ready" ?
> - after the grip is solid, and how do you determine that ?
> - when it gets too possessive ?



I don't think any training is to early as long as it's begun as a game. That includes the out.
By 12-14 wks I want my dogs to respond immediately to sit, down, here, and a short duration stay. 

FOR me, the out is solid when the dog can hold the grip consistently with no dropping until the out is given and no chewing.


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## Joby Becker

lannie dulin said:


> Pick them up and start to turn them upside down in the direction of rear over front. The pup will drop the tug as instinct and there is no conflict. Mark that with "out" before you do it.
> 
> However, you'll need to mix in grabbing their waste and not doing this so they don't automatically release whenever someone touches their waste.


I would not do this as it seems that it would condition a dog to out when lifted. Most people want their dog to hold a grip while in any body position.


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## jim stevens

Logan Payton said:


> I go dead until he lets go. I have not put a command to the behavior yet because he isn't solid in it yet. Sometimes he won't let go for a while and it takes patience. When he does let go I immediately reward with another bite.


I tried this with mine, I think I would have died waiting for her to let go. I just had to give her a command then a pop with a pinch collar. She has a flawless out and has had for a long time


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## Paul R. Konschak

FOOD. This will make the dog move away from the object, not just open his mouth


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## Jim Duncan

I have always used the two ball or two toy method. It teaches a lightning fast recall while simultaneously teaching a motivational out. Builds drive, speed and makes the handler the center of the dog's universe. Works great!


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## Maureen A Osborn

I use the 2 toy/tug method also...


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## kerry engels

Bob Scott said:


> Ivan method! Lock up till the dog lets go then mark and reward with a re-bite.
> For those that don't want the dog to let go on a passive bite it's just a matter of build in movement a little at a time.
> That's not done till the out is really solid on a passive bite.
> When it's solid on a moving bite then the helper can bring up the fight in the dog.


 

This has worked well for me.


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## rick smith

swapping can work fine but some dogs who get ramped like to KEEP more than they like to GET


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## Sarah Platts

rick smith said:


> swapping can work fine but some dogs who get ramped like to KEEP more than they like to GET


 So they get ramped up, so what? It's still just a training issue and chances are you will need them to Leave It the most when they are in a ramped up condition. So this would be a good thing.


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## lannie dulin

Joby Becker said:


> I would not do this as it seems that it would condition a dog to out when lifted. Most people want their dog to hold a grip while in any body position.


I haven't had that issue. But then again I haven't done it much. I did some early imprinting for an "out" just for exposure to the idea of letting go without conflict. I know a few ppl that use this method for small pups when playing solo with a tug and none have any issues now.


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## Daniel Lybbert

for the Ivan method. does your dog start to whine and look around and wonder what the hell is going on? then let go? what if it takes 20 mins each bite?
food works if they are hungry.
What if the dog doesnt want the 2nd ball or tug?


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## rick smith

what Daniel said : "What if the dog doesnt want the 2nd ball or tug?"
what i said : "swapping can work fine but some dogs who get ramped like to KEEP more than they like to GET "
... pretty much the same point
- what works with most won't always work with all
- there is also the bribery factor that has to be considered when swapping a bite object
....as always; many roads to rome 

but a long as the dog is satisfied in the training session it can learn to out. NO dog ever keeps anything in its mouth forever 
patience can be a virtue; hard compulsion usually happens when that runs out, or if there isn't much in the tank to start with 
- and THAT applies to every aspect of training; not just the out

- teaching this early in life will not screw up a dog's grip "for ever and ever" like many paranoid trainers are afraid of. 
teaching the out can be done conflict free

as long as you motivate the dog to grip, and keep it's motivation up, it will be fine
"OUT.....NOW! ... or else!" is adding conflict. many tuff as nails trainers don't care because they are the boss and they want to reinforce this early, or they are full of confidence and know they can always teach it later 

to me it has as much to do with your overall training philosophy as it does to to the technique you use


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## Chip Blasiole

Like all training, you have to tailor the approach and its timing to the individual dog. I think timing when to start the out is the more critical issue. Starting to train it too soon, before a pup is really committed to the bite can create some issues. Also, if you wait too long, and have a dog with a very strong, genetic grip, and very high prey drive, you might not be able to get the dog to out consistently as an adult, due to developing extreme posessiveness in the dog. This is when it helps to know something about the dog's parents.


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## Matt Vandart

Chip Blasiole said:


> Like all training, you have to tailor the approach and its timing to the individual dog. I think timing when to start the out is the more critical issue. Starting to train it too soon, before a pup is really committed to the bite can create some issues. * Also, if you wait too long, and have a dog with a very strong, genetic grip, and very high prey drive, you might not be able to get the dog to out consistently as an adult, due to developing extreme posessiveness in the dog.* This is when it helps to know something about the dog's parents.


Oh I know this too well, lolz  although she is not quite an adult yet...


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## Tony Barton

Logan Payton said:


> I go dead until he lets go. I have not put a command to the behavior yet because he isn't solid in it yet. Sometimes he won't let go for a while and it takes patience. When he does let go I immediately reward with another bite.



Logan, dead on!! Specially if the dog has at least the genetics for hard working dogs. My imported Bouvier has off the chart defense drive. If I were to try and take something from him, he will dig in and defend. So, sometimes I had to stand for 30 minutes, calm, not pulling. Once he let go, I gave him an enthusiastic "out" and immediately tossed the item for him to get. After a month, he was outting on command at 14 weeks. Now that he is 90 pounds, had I not done that, who knows what nightmare I would be dealing with.


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## Connie Sutherland

Tony, don't forget your required intro under "Member Bios." Thanks, and welcome to WDF.


http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f20/


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## Joby Becker

Connie Sutherland said:


> Tony, don't forget your required intro under "Member Bios." Thanks, and welcome to WDF.
> 
> 
> http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f20/


SLAP!  the gloves are back from the cleaners


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## Larry Krohn

Howard Gaines III said:


> How do you teach the OUT command with puppies and still keep the high drive attitude?


exactly what Logan said


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