# The Reality of a "Live" Bite



## Patrick Murray (Mar 27, 2006)

Andy Larrimore's thread about his K9 partner's live bite on a suspect motivated me to start this thread. 

As many of you here know I want my dogs to be serious, real-world PPD dogs first and anything else second. In my years as an amateur enthusiast of working dogs I've seen my fair share of bite work. In my opinion the vast majority of what I've seen fell far short of what was needed to simulate an actual, real-life confrontation. 

Most people want to go to the same field and do the same routine over and over again and again. I too have been guilty of that, to some extent. Haven't we all? 

It's not difficult to find "trainers" and "decoys" that will take a bite from a dog. What IS difficult is finding one that will simulate a real-world encounter and act just like a "bad guy" would act if getting bit. Most of them stoically stand there like a statue and don't mutter a sound. They don't challenge the dog in the way that some street punk would. 

I guess you can tell that I am cynical and skeptical of most so-called trainers when it comes to PPD training. I've seen what I consider to be some excellent PPD training and it was about as real as it could get without it actually being real. Most of the so-called PPD training I've witnessed over the years is incomplete, inadequate, unrealistic and doesn't comes close to simulating reality. 

The dog that will bite for real after being trained in the same routine, in the same place with the same decoy and at the same time of day has to be exceedingly rare. Many people are content to "train" in this manner and believe that they're dog is the real deal when in fact their dog is NOT ready for a hardcore, screaming, violent man to come through their front door. 

Anyway, that's my rant. Later!


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## Guest (Jun 10, 2008)

> They don't challenge the dog in the way that some street punk would.


How *do* street punks challenge the dog?


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

From experience, I've seen them (street punks) do everything from kick, punch, slam the dog against a car/building tree etc, throw things, hit them with clubs, stab, shoot at, occasionally shoot and hit to fold like a cheap card table. The only experience I have in other than police training was as an interested spectator. I is attended a mock trial of APPDA. I have to tell ya, they really confronted and tried very hard to intimidate the dogs. In my experience with police dogs, the only way to train is to anticipate the unthinkable.

DFrost


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## Guest (Jun 10, 2008)

> ...their dog is NOT ready for a hardcore, screaming, violent man to come through their front door.


I suppose the positive implication of people thinking their dogs ARE ready for such a thing (true or not), is that it doesn't actually happen very happen...so they are afforded the luxury of continuing to think so.

Otherwise, the interweb would be awash with people coming to forums like these and starting a thread called: "My dog didn't bite?????"

Continuing on in the body of the message:

"So a violent screaming man came through my front door, and my such-and-such trained dog didn't actually bite him. He bit the last several screaming, hardcore, violent men who came through the door, but I'm not sure what was different this time around. Tips??"

Maybe it's one of those contingencies for which a whole lot of planning is out of proportion to the odds of it happening...?


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## Mike Talkington (May 13, 2008)

Mike Schoonbrood said:


> Out of all the people I have talked to that have had live bites, not one of them has notably mentioned the bad guys fighting back.
> I'm sure it happens, but I don't think that is the majority of the scenarios.


True enough, but it does happen!! That of course is where the handler comes in, after all the fight is on!!
and I will not let anyone beat my dog! 
My retired dog has been in more than one all out fight with a suspect, one I remeber well because it was the first time the bad guy did NOT scream. As I sent my dog this guy fed him his arm and took a bare armed bite and commenced to punching my dog in the face, Bam came off but instantly re-engaged this guy in his stomach and at about that time I've gotten in there to fight with my partner, needless to say WE won

I sort of see dog training like martial arts, anyone with the physique, TRAINING, etc. can hold many belts.... but can they stand up to someone who is a street fighter, a bona fide thug, in an all out fight for his life with no rules...maybe, maybe not... but this person with the martial arts training fare a better chance than someone without any fight training at all.


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## Patrick Murray (Mar 27, 2006)

Steven Lepic said:


> How *do* street punks challenge the dog?


They stand perfectly still, not uttering a sound and with their left arm extended, offering the dog a free bite.


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

My first dog was punched a few times pretty good by a burglar. Each punch was met with a harder bite and thrashing movement. This guy paid dearly for his behavour...I made sure of that. This was on his second ever bite. I always knew this little Czech dog was nasty but he totally convinced me after that. He was the hardest biting dog in our unit, no-one wanted to catch him so I knew the dirtbag was hurtin for sure.

My second dog took a knife to the face on his first bite. He hung in there and the bad guy was eventually killed by a SWAT member. Another Czech dog that gained my respect. That is only a couple of the half dozen scumbags who fought my dogs. It happens more than you think.

Howard


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## Andy Larrimore (Jan 8, 2008)

You must train in the manner that you expect your dog to perform. You should train for as many situations as possible so you can recognize your dogs weaker points. Once you expose them you should concentrate on these until they are no longer your weak points. I also use a lot of different decoys. I use small, large, male and female decoys. I also vary the manner in which they work my dog. Sometimes they are passive other times they fight hard. I also do not "out" my dog each time, sometimes I do a lift off. I try to train in a lot of different enviroments. I use schools, ware houses, car lots and various royal enviroments. It really builds your dogs confidence and you can watch as he matures into a trustworthy partner. Like I said earlier "You must train in the manner that you expect your dog to perform."


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## Michael West (Jun 3, 2008)

"Train how you fight" A commen term you will hear in the military. If your not training for the fight, what are you training for?

I dont think you will find many people that say you should only train with the decoy standing still and makeing noise, and the majority of trainers will say train how you fight with an active decoy and engaging enviorments.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

there was another saying that was popular way back when; If you find yourself losing a fight; your tactics suck.

DFrost


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## Matt Hammond (Apr 11, 2006)

The reality is you can not train for the real deal. I know very few decoys that will offer a live bite to my dog. You can use hidden sleeves, muzzles, tact bite suits, all will get you as close as you can get to a live bite in training, but until you get into a situation were you have to send the dog, you can never know for sure how your dog will react.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Steven Lepic said:


> I suppose the positive implication of people thinking their dogs ARE ready for such a thing (true or not), is that it doesn't actually happen very happen...so they are afforded the luxury of continuing to think so.
> 
> Otherwise, the interweb would be awash with people coming to forums like these and starting a thread called: "My dog didn't bite?????"
> 
> ...


First, unless the person in an inbred crackhead, it is highly unlikely that they are going to come "screaming" through your front door. I haven't lived under a rock for 51 years, but when the bad guy breaks into a dwelling the word "stealth" comes to mind. Get in, get out, and don't get caught!

Second and foremost, any K-9 decoy/helper MUST be an actor. Hello! The dog feeds on the emotions and movements brought on by the decoy. If you stand there like a rock you aren't a threat. If on the bite sleeve or suit you make no sound, you are in fact "dead prey." Even highly defensive dogs work in some prey mode. Decoys are like good sparing partners, they work you in two modes of combat. K-9 decoys play into the dog's drives to PULL out and build up the animal. Moans, screams, gasps, fight, passive, and ending with the dog dominating the bad guy/decoy.

Lastly, if I had a decoy that couldn't and wouldn't act, I find a new one. Train 90% of the time and test 10%. I want my puppies to feel like winners on the bite rag or sleeve. I want them to see the "fear" as the decoy runs for cover. My older dogs need to have some pressure put on them to understand the the bad guy can hurt them. Be on guard, 24/7. We don't live in Roman Times and have the ability to throw the dog into a pit and toss a few bait guys at them. Real street bites are for the most part what Larrimore got with his dog. Other folks have to wait for the scenario of home invasion before the test is given. Real is as real does...


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Howard Knauf said:


> My first dog was punched a few times pretty good by a burglar. Each punch was met with a harder bite and thrashing movement. This guy paid dearly for his behavour...I made sure of that. This was on his second ever bite. I always knew this little Czech dog was nasty but he totally convinced me after that. He was the hardest biting dog in our unit, no-one wanted to catch him so I knew the dirtbag was hurtin for sure.
> 
> My second dog took a knife to the face on his first bite. He hung in there and the bad guy was eventually killed by a SWAT member. Another Czech dog that gained my respect. That is only a couple of the half dozen scumbags who fought my dogs. It happens more than you think.
> 
> Howard


Howard, when you say "nasty" I'm assuming these dogs had more than enough aggression to retaliate as they did. Isn't this where it starts? Wouldn't it be true to say that if the dog doesn't have this amount of aggression, you can't train it to fight back? Taking the bite from the dog as a decoy is only part of the work. A good decoy should be able to assess how much pressure the dog can take, what his strengths are, and how committed he is to putting up a fight. 

And hard dogs like these still have to be 100% under control but ready to go in to the fray when commanded, the handler having to judge the situation in a second. 

I'm glad I'm only into schutzhund but can rely on my dogs to show their natural aggression so as be deterrents, nothing more, nothing less. This way I can keep them under control but still feel safer than without them.


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Hi Gill,

Yes. Nasty little critter. Good fight drive. He really enjoyed being pressured, he even got pissed when the decoys wouldn't fight him hard enough. The only control issue I ever had with him was the out, and thats only because this was the dog I learned on. The only reason I had an out problem was because my instructors at the time only taught the yank and crank method. I've since learned better ways.

Howard


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## Dan Long (Jan 10, 2008)

I think training in different places at different times of the day is important. It's easy for a dog to get comfortable training on the same field with the same decoys all the time. I like having people come to my house and simulate a real threat on my dog's home turf. I've had a K9 officer I know come over and hide in my yard and send the dog out to get him. He has to search for him and then bite. I'm getting ready to do the same thing with another guy who is going to show up unannounced, hide in the yard somewhere, and I'll let the dog get him. That's about as close as I'll be able to get to simulating a real threat to my home.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Howard Knauf said:


> Yes. Nasty little critter. Good fight drive.
> Howard


Another discussion, I know, but still, a phrase I truly like. 

DFrost


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## Patrick Murray (Mar 27, 2006)

Howard Gaines III said:


> Lastly, if I had a decoy that couldn't and wouldn't act, I find a new one.


Amen to that Howard! That's pretty much why I'm without one.

That's all true, of course, about the dog biting a passive subject and so forth. Obviously it's of paramount importance that the dog engage such a subject hard and fast. Not every threat is a screaming, raving lunatic.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Patrick Murray said:


> Amen to that Howard! That's pretty much why I'm without one.
> 
> That's all true, of course, about the dog biting a passive subject and so forth. Obviously it's of paramount importance that the dog engage such a subject hard and fast. Not every threat is a screaming, raving lunatic.


Patrick I have GOOD news for you! Being without a decoy has come to an end...you're invited to make the run to Delaware and train with us! See, family firendly, but you provide the gas. 

Never stopped someone as a cop for carrying a hoola-hoop, or doing an attack with a plastic soda bottle. Yelling is a nerve test, but not grounds to have man's best friend turn the volume down with a live bite...


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

And that's where the in-born aggression comes in - attack on command! With Howard's nasty CZ dog you don't have to think on these terms.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Gillian Schuler said:


> And that's where the in-born aggression comes in - attack on command! With Howard's nasty CZ dog you don't have to think on these terms.


Question...Is an attack on "command" always a good thing? I have MO...


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Sorry Howard Gaines III got in before me:smile: I was replying to Patrick's comments on the decoy.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Got to be faster Ankle Biter! \\/


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Guess so Bit the Handler\\/


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Gillian Schuler said:


> Guess so Bit the Handler\\/


Get him -- get him right on the ankle. :lol:


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Why just the ankle:idea:


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## Will Kline (Jan 10, 2008)

Gillian Schuler said:


> Why just the ankle:idea:


Rut Roh Roward...ur in rouble! 8-[ :-o 8-[ :-o 8-[


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## Mike charatin (Apr 9, 2008)

David Frost said:


> there was another saying that was popular way back when; If you find yourself losing a fight; your tactics suck.
> 
> DFrost


I agree here is another saying from the personal protection people. I use my dog to buy me enough time to get to my gun. Excercise your right to bear arms.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Fast as fast can be...two against one...out of here! Man this is hotter than our weather.:twisted: :mrgreen:


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