# Herding and the e collar



## Kellie Wolverton (Jan 16, 2009)

so as not to high jack another thread....

I am very interested in how the e collar can be used correctly. Can someone, who is experienced with the e collar and herding, kind of line out the basics of it.

I am guessing, that there is a period where the dog is "taught" what the correction means , prior to using it out on stock?

I have only seen it used a few times. Once on an overly aggressive Kelpie. She liked to grip and tear way too much. After a time, it seemed to me, that she associated the "zing" with the sheep. She went into avoidance, lost all her power and would never bite after that.

Once was with my Beauceron. The trainer wanted to try it. I quickly put a stop to it, as I realized she was not connecting the zing with her negative behavior. So she was "confused". That did not seem productive, or in her best interest.

Thanks in advance for replies.

Kellie


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

good question;

want your dog to cast out further 1000meters, zap it?
want your dog to shorten the cast zap it?
dog not aggressive enough zap it?
dog too aggresive zap it?
dog to plant its but zap it
dog to get busy tucking that flank in zap it
dog to come?
dog to go?
dog to trail stock?
dog to block left - you think it should go right zap?
.
.
.
just what would you do exactly with an ecollar????

near everyone i know tried them and left them sitting in the shed gathering dust, but hey they never seen a trial.


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## Kellie Wolverton (Jan 16, 2009)

now now...I am genuinely curious how it is used correctly.

I am pretty sure the "zap happy" crowd is not using it correctly


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Kellie,

I've seen happen what you describe. My problem is what association you build. I've seen really mechanical position trained dogs that aren't putting any pressure on the stock whatsoever. They go where you tell them to go but after the correction, they no longer assert control over the stock. Fine on light sheep that move off mere presence or with extremely people trained sheep--i.e. trial type sheep. But stock that require the dog's pressure/control figure it out soon enough. I've seen some reference to e-collar use on Sheepdog-L [mostly BC handlers] but nothing too informative on the how and why. I started a dog on stock that was great. Suddenly, she wouldn't look at stock. Owners say they put an e-collar on her due to running the fence with the dog next door. I've also known of a dog that even with collar cranked, ran right through it to continue in the prey mode he was in. The issues I've had with my dog is with light fright trial type of sheep. I would never want to risk a correction that would turn her off or cause her not to act instinctively in other situations. So--too risky to fool with.

T


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

One of the many excellent tools in the training box and one that is most misused. JMHO of course! :grin::wink:
I agree with T that most that use it in herding create a mechanical placement dog. NOT a dog that is reading and working stock. 
Not all of course! 8-[


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> good question;
> 
> want your dog to cast out further 1000meters, zap it?
> want your dog to shorten the cast zap it?
> ...


I think it is mostly a trialing phenomenon or with people who don't work stock full time. Mostly I think with the keen high drive dogs, daily experience living around sheep and having a working relationship with them will settle the dog in. My dog is obsessed with control and with them not getting away. She has her moments of disobeying commands/corrections to obtain what she thinks is control of the stock. Once she has that control then she is very command compliant. Control to the dog is where the sheep yield to the dog's pressure without attempts to flee or fight that pressure. A dog working his own flock has a working relationship or control so this stuff for the most part is not going to come up and you are very much working with instinct and the dog's understanding of what his job is. 

If you can't give the dog daily experience to work this out, people resort more with compulsion and obedience placement training--especially for non-eye dogs working light stock in a 100 x 200 rectangle pen. Often they are using the wrong stock for the dog in particular; i.e. overly reactive. You really do have to decide if you have a prey/chase dog who isn't attempting to gather/control. That's something altogether different and its not a matter of the handler positioning himself to facilitate this. Even when done badly [such as dog too tight], you can tell when a dog is cutting off the single/weak for dinner vs. trying to gather, group and deliver the stock to his handler. 

T


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

What T said above is a pretty accurate assessment of how I see it. But if someone else can throw more light on the use of the e collar in herding be interested to hear it.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Sara Waters said:


> What T said above is a pretty accurate assessment of how I see it. But if someone else can throw more light on the use of the e collar in herding be interested to hear it.


What T said is one person's opinion based on what they have seen, and your assumptions. Posts like Peter's just give more examples of people who don't have a clue how it might be used, and want to make inflammatory statements.

For how to introduce a dog to electric, google introduce dog to electric collar or something similar to that, there are MANY websites on it. 

Once the dog understands the collar, and also understands the behavior being required, the collar is simply a way to correct the dog if needed. You don't teach the behaviors with the collar, you reinforce behaviors the dog already knows. 

I've seen, and had, dogs who's instincts are to gather and fetch all day long, but sometimes that's not what the handler wants/needs. Sometimes the handler can't just allow the dog to do what it instinctively wants, they need the dog to do something else, something they may not choose to do. One example would be after putting sheep through a foot bath. As they come out the end of the chute they are free to leave, and some leave with "enthusiasm". The dogs instincts tell them the sheep are escaping, they want to go gather them up and bring them back, but the handler is done with them. The dog needs to focus on pushing the remaining sheep through the chute, not be trying to go gather up the "escapees".

The main thing I use the collar for, when I use it, is to reinforce the "stop", but I've seen it used to reinforce pretty much any command given that the dog decides to ignore. I've also seen it NOT used when the handler is wrong and the dog is right, it's not like putting an e-collar on a dog immediately means remote control dog. It's like any other tool, how it's used depends on who is using it.

My experience on who is using it has also been different then T's, every person I can think off hand who works dogs on a daily basis on their ranch, as part of their livelihood, uses the collar at least part of the time, some don't take the dogs out to work without a collar on. Of the people I know who are "weekend warriors" training for trials, it's about 50/50 on who uses the collar and who doesn't.

This is my last post on the topic, because frankly I don't think there is any desire to really understand how/why someone might want to use this tool, but only to take stabs at people who might choose to use it as somehow inferior trainers with inferior dogs.


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> What T said is one person's opinion based on what they have seen, and your assumptions.
> 
> I've seen, and had, dogs who's instincts are to gather and fetch all day long, but sometimes that's not what the handler wants/needs. Sometimes the handler can't just allow the dog to do what it instinctively wants, they need the dog to do something else, something they may not choose to do. One example would be after putting sheep through a foot bath. As they come out the end of the chute they are free to leave, and some leave with "enthusiasm". The dogs instincts tell them the sheep are escaping, they want to go gather them up and bring them back, but the handler is done with them. The dog needs to focus on pushing the remaining sheep through the chute, not be trying to go gather up the "escapees".
> 
> ...


Yes I understand your example of the footbath and the need for a gathering dog to return the escapees. That is a reasonable use.

I fired up because in the other thread you made it seem that it was either use the e colar or a hunt em down choice which I didnt agree with. 

My dogs both understand the wait comand or lie down comand and although both of them would love to catch those escapees I have trained them not to from pups by reinforcing mainly with voice tone and hand signals, that is how I train.

I have a 1000 acre farm myself and I am surrounded by much bigger commercial farms with thousands of sheep and lots of good working dogs and I dont know anyone who uses an e collar. So it is a different culture I guess. 

They way you explained the use of it is fair enough as long as the handler really understands how sheep and dogs and the handler work because if not I could see that it could quickly spoil a dog. 

I certainly would not like to try it out, I am sticking to what I know and feel. 

I think that you really need to understand the dog, the livestock and the interactions before you could truly use it successfully.


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## Kellie Wolverton (Jan 16, 2009)

"My experience on who is using it has also been different then T's, every person I can think off hand who works dogs on a daily basis on their ranch, as part of their livelihood, uses the collar at least part of the time, some don't take the dogs out to work without a collar on. Of the people I know who are "weekend warriors" training for trials, it's about 50/50 on who uses the collar and who doesn't.

This is my last post on the topic, because frankly I don't think there is any desire to really understand how/why someone might want to use this tool, but only to take stabs at people who might choose to use it as somehow inferior trainers with inferior dogs"

Thank you for your input.

I am sorry that you feel the question was not genuine. I have seen many e collars on stock dogs in the StockDog Journal and wonder why, how, etc.

I am always looking for ways to become a better handler, while allowing my dog the freedom to make mistakes and allow them to work naturally. And not be a screaming idiot, trying to enforce a correction. It seems to me, with proper introduction, this is how the ecollar can be used successfully.

I will google as you suggested. Thanks again.

Kellie


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## Lou Castle (Apr 4, 2006)

Kelli I have no experience with herding but I know that to make best use of the Ecollar the dog should understand what the handler expects of it when the handler presses the button. Those who zap the dog, hoping that he'll make the proper association, often find that they've created a problem that is very difficult to fix, as you've mentioned. 

When introducing the Ecollar I suggest that a method be used that shows the dog what makes the stim start and how to shut it off.


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## Kellie Wolverton (Jan 16, 2009)

Thanks Lou!


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Kellie Wolverton said:


> now now...I am genuinely curious how it is used correctly.
> 
> I am pretty sure the "zap happy" crowd is not using it correctly


Kellie

There is no "zap happy" crowd. Peter is the only one to mention "zapping" and I don't think he was serious?


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Kellie Wolverton said:


> I am sorry that you feel the question was not genuine. I have seen many e collars on stock dogs in the StockDog Journal and wonder why, how, etc.


I believe your question was genuine, my response wasn't directed at you.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> The main thing I use the collar for, when I use it, is to reinforce the "stop", but I've seen it used to reinforce pretty much any command given that the dog decides to ignore. I've also seen it NOT used when the handler is wrong and the dog is right, it's not like putting an e-collar on a dog immediately means remote control dog. It's like any other tool, how it's used depends on who is using it.


Yes, basically this. I don't use it when he makes a mistake (like he goes by instead of away in the learning phase). I use it when he won't obey a stop command cause otherwise it gets ugly, especially with sheep. I think there is a lack of understanding of how e-collars can be used in general, not just in this particular sport. Are they even legal in Australia?


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Yes they are legal, prongs were not last time i checked but i see a lot starting to turn up.

There is an ecollar training franchise as well.

ecollars are now becoming the first choice training tool of the stupid and lazy. They think its kind of magici you can sit there push a button and make yr dog jump. These pos people prolly first time they ever experienced a sense of power.

There are some excellent trainers that use them as well, just not many.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Kadi you were wrong saying i was being inflamatory, i depicted what was more a typical use of ecollars than the proper use and you know it. 

I am sure you and others that post here are more proper than typical, at least i want to think that.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Have you used one before for any purpose?


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Who me?? you really cant guess the answer to that from my posts?? 

No i have never used one.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Kellie Wolverton said:


> "My experience on who is using it has also been different then T's, every person I can think off hand who works dogs on a daily basis on their ranch, as part of their livelihood, uses the collar at least part of the time, some don't take the dogs out to work without a collar on. Of the people I know who are "weekend warriors" training for trials, it's about 50/50 on who uses the collar and who doesn't.
> 
> This is my last post on the topic, because frankly I don't think there is any desire to really understand how/why someone might want to use this tool, but only to take stabs at people who might choose to use it as somehow inferior trainers with inferior dogs"
> 
> ...


You might want to hang out on Sheepdog-L where they have been discussed some. I don't have any issues with farm chores like the footbath used or holds for worming. Dogs understand jobs. We run ranch dog trials where we leave a dog in the pen with the sheep while we open a chute door that is a foot wide and walled. Dog moves the sheep through to the scale and out the other side. She can handle stuff like that along with the trailers and sorts. My issues with Khira were with light sheep with which she doesn't have a relationship with and the nutsos on the trial field. She can perform any chores backwards and forwards and has been there to keep me from getting hurt because she read a situation I didn't see quick enough. I don't want to change that about her. The other thing is how the e-collar effects the dog's mental relationship with the stock. If the dog works with considerable eye/mental pressure I think the collar could be less risky. Bob Vest used to say you could always tell an e-collar trained dog and at the time I thought yeah, right. Now I know what he means. To "stop" a behavior, like any other positive punishment, I think it can be used. But you have to be damn sure that the behavior you want is being taught and the dog connects the dots on what is being corrected. So only if I'm absolutely sure that I have taught the behavior and gotten to the point of generalization will I go to a correction for the dog basically saying screw me. With one dog, I simply leashed her up and took the work away. Khira's a smartass and probably the only candidate for a zap that I can think of in terms of the dogs I've worked. As a young dog I think a zap probably would have fueled more aggression. Now, it might have a more beneficial effect but I also believe if I had the right stock for her when she was young, I wouldn't have this issue. So I haven't zapped her yet.

I think bottom line you HAVE to understand the dog's relationship with the stock and have a clear handle on reading that relationship before you go to a training tool like an e-collar. Most problems in the beginning can be solved by having the right geographic area and stock mentality for the dog's training level and mentality. I've spent a considerable amount of time over the years looking at certain websites researching this and watching plenty of videos. Mostly around here I've seen exactly what Peter has described with protection trainers and even worse in the general obedience class at a local dog training school. 

Withing my herding club and network of folks around the country, e-collars aren't used in herding training. But you could say the same thing about marker training. Of the dogs I've seen that were trained with them, they had drop dead gorgeous stops, but nothing else. They were mentally turned off and they went where the handler told them to. Looked great on light trial sheep and especially with a saavy handler that was calling every move. I have a young puppy that is every bit of as nutso obsessed with stock as Khira and I started him with marker training---HUGE difference. Even when he is checked out into gaga land, that marker trained "platz" will reach his little brain. He's only 9 months old so we will see what the mature brain does. Khira was trained more old school which brought a lot of conflict with her prey/fight drive. I didn't start getting anywhere until I went to marker training. If you aren't at the point of really feeling/reading the mental relationship between the dog and the stock, then I'd say shop around for someone that understands the collar and that dog/stock relationship and don't try to do it on your own. I say the same thing to people about marker training. People focus on the static positioning alot especially AKC trialists. However, you don't want to be doing something counter to the mental side of the equation.

T


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Just went through some posts on the yahoo group Sheepdog-L and there are some excellent posts by people who have used them and how they think they will relate to herding training. Its worth joining like Herders-L to search and read through the archives.


T


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## Kellie Wolverton (Jan 16, 2009)

Thanks to all that have replied.

I will check out the Sheepdog_L.

The e collar is not something I would ever try without guidance from someone that I was SURE knew how to use it correctly.

In the case of my dog, it was being used incorrectly, as I now understand. It was being used to try and teach her to drive. At the time, it was obvious that she did not understand. At least now I know why.

thanks

Kellie


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Kellie Wolverton said:


> Thanks to all that have replied.
> 
> I will check out the Sheepdog_L.
> 
> ...


Kellie, 

What breed? Beaceron or Kelpie if I remember correctly are your breeds. Can you elaborate on how it was used and what effect on the dog?

Terrasita


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## Kellie Wolverton (Jan 16, 2009)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Kellie,
> 
> What breed? Beaceron or Kelpie if I remember correctly are your breeds. Can you elaborate on how it was used and what effect on the dog?
> 
> Terrasita


Beauceron.

The dog was hit for not "walking up" She had never had an ecollar on before and was not understanding the concept of driving without me by her side. She was hit/stimulated ...she yelped and then laid down. She was told to "walk up" again. She stayed lying down and was hit again. Yelped again...and she gave me a WTF look and I put a stop to it.

It makes me feel horrible for putting her in that situation. And is one of the major reasons that I am curious as how it could be done differently/correctly.

I am , by no means, bashing it's use. I think it could be effective in the right hands.


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Kellie, there was a discussion on the Working Border collies boards and they were in general definitely not a fan of the e collar used in herding training. 

Peters comments do relate to the times I have seen them used here which is rare. By people too lazy to train their dogs, I was in a pet shop once and the young salesman was telling me how he used it to control his out of control dog and quite frankly it horrified me they way he described it.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> Who me?? you really cant guess the answer to that from my posts??
> 
> No i have never used one.


No, I am attempting to use the Christopher Smith Method of responding to a question with another question that I already know the answer to.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Good work, i thought it was a blonde moment. Christopher would answer with some esoteric riddle to stop people in their tracks and wonder what the question was again.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Kellie Wolverton said:


> Beauceron.
> 
> The dog was hit for not "walking up" She had never had an ecollar on before and was not understanding the concept of driving without me by her side. She was hit/stimulated ...she yelped and then laid down. She was told to "walk up" again. She stayed lying down and was hit again. Yelped again...and she gave me a WTF look and I put a stop to it.
> 
> ...


As Sara says, its the same on Sheepdog-L, most are not a fan of its use. Building the drive, especially in a strong gathering dog or one that has been worked primarily that way takes a LONG time. Usually if they are glued to the handler's side, its because they aren't confident working independently yet. There are other ways to fade your presence or not have it there in the first place. Most dogs are specific. If "walk up" means to her that she walks toward stock with you at her side, take you out the picture and the command means nothing. What they were asking for isn't a trained behavior. So confused, she just freezes. For me, "walk up" or the drive is a mental as well as physical behavior. I'm not a fan of using any corrections in the learning phase so can't tell you how an e-collar could be done differently in the learning phase. 

T


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Kellie Wolverton said:


> Beauceron.
> 
> The dog was hit for not "walking up" She had never had an ecollar on before and was not understanding the concept of driving without me by her side. She was hit/stimulated ...she yelped and then laid down. She was told to "walk up" again. She stayed lying down and was hit again. Yelped again...and she gave me a WTF look and I put a stop to it.
> 
> ...


HI Kellie

E-collar theory is pretty simple. It the dog yelps? Your level is too high


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> As Sara says, its the same on Sheepdog-L, most are not a fan of its use. Building the drive, especially in a strong gathering dog or one that has been worked primarily that way takes a LONG time. Usually if they are glued to the handler's side, its because they aren't confident working independently yet. There are other ways to fade your presence or not have it there in the first place. Most dogs are specific. If "walk up" means to her that she walks toward stock with you at her side, take you out the picture and the command means nothing. What they were asking for isn't a trained behavior. So confused, she just freezes. For me, "walk up" or the drive is a mental as well as physical behavior. I'm not a fan of using any corrections in the learning phase so can't tell you how an e-collar could be done differently in the learning phase.
> 
> T


Yes building the drive in certain dogs does take time and a lot of it is a mental behaviour. I am going through this with my kelpie. She walks up with me but I have been working on her walking up and getting both the confidence and understanding to move them herself. Maturity has hepled along with picking the right sheep from my flock and environment.

A strong dog like my BC I have no problems but with but my kelpie I have found this is where the marker training could be particularly usefull. I choose sheep that are not going to run for the hills forcing the dog to always worry about heading them, or to heavy that they wont move. I have already taught the dog a strong behind and stop command. I then encourage her to walk up and will get her to a position where under her eye the sheep will move forward without me moving forward and I mark that with praise, patience is required here. I have found that as she gains confidence she has started to edge forward herself and is now starting to move them. Finding a lane way or running them through a chute in the yards has also helped and never do it with sheep that will turn and challenge. She is never going to be a top quality dog but I have found that she really is improving into a handy dog.


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## Kellie Wolverton (Jan 16, 2009)

Thomas Barriano said:


> HI Kellie
> 
> E-collar theory is pretty simple. It the dog yelps? Your level is too high


Lol Iif I a ever use it agian, I will keep that in mind 

Kellie


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Kellie Wolverton said:


> Lol Iif I a ever use it agian, I will keep that in mind
> 
> Kellie


Hi Kellie

I'm going to be starting a seminar tour. All I need is one participant and a round trip Greyhound ticket. I want to have done 30 seminars by the end of the year


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## Kellie Wolverton (Jan 16, 2009)

Thomas Barriano said:


> Hi Kellie
> 
> I'm going to be starting a seminar tour. All I need is one participant and a round trip Greyhound ticket. I want to have done 30 seminars by the end of the year


PERFECT. Juust send me please your bank account number and I will have my Nigerian atoorney transver the fundd directly [-o<


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Thomas I think she gotcha! :lol:


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Sara Waters said:


> Yes building the drive in certain dogs does take time and a lot of it is a mental behaviour. I am going through this with my kelpie. She walks up with me but I have been working on her walking up and getting both the confidence and understanding to move them herself. Maturity has hepled along with picking the right sheep from my flock and environment.
> 
> A strong dog like my BC I have no problems but with but my kelpie I have found this is where the marker training could be particularly usefull. I choose sheep that are not going to run for the hills forcing the dog to always worry about heading them, or to heavy that they wont move. I have already taught the dog a strong behind and stop command. I then encourage her to walk up and will get her to a position where under her eye the sheep will move forward without me moving forward and I mark that with praise, patience is required here. I have found that as she gains confidence she has started to edge forward herself and is now starting to move them. Finding a lane way or running them through a chute in the yards has also helped and never do it with sheep that will turn and challenge. She is never going to be a top quality dog but I have found that she really is improving into a handy dog.


Its why I don't understand using corrections. Often you have to build confidence and for some dogs moving the sheep away from the handler is really against instinct. The dog is making the sheep do what they aren't inclined to do. Some people use flighty stock but I like heavy because I want the dog to expeience he is applying pressure to make them move. The more they do that, the more confident they get. It does require patience. Its literally a few feet at a time. At the last club meeting there was a decent group of sheep out in the six acre field. I took my 9 month old puppy out on a long line and had him walk up and turn their heads and move them a couple of feet, stop, recall. Its all marker work. He's leaning to calmly handle being in the pressure and moving them; therefore, no need to amp. I can drop back behind on the long line and in the beginning keep them from zinging around to head them back to me. My long line method is actually a spin off of a Scottish BC trainer's approach. Someone told me about it at a trial and I thought Bingo. In the past I rigged what I used to call a drive lane. I like the long line because with 30-100 feet, I can guide the dog [not restrain], yet drop back out of the immediate picture. Eventually, they line drags and I fade it altogether. But one key to good long line work is that my dogs will not have tension in a line and pull. I've ran into dogs that really aren't leash broke that way. They'll have fantastic off lead reliability yet snap a lead on and they pull. 

If your Kelpie develops into a partner to you in your farm work then that makes her as good as gold. There are few greats. That's what training and development is all about. I start the drive worked as soon as I'm done with the foundation balance/cover works. It so improves their calmness/rate on the fetch.

T


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

So what was used BEFORE the e-collar? It boils down to using real good training. You MUST be the leader and not give the dog mixed signals. With that said, if properly used it can be a good "tool box" tool; if not properly used you can screw the dog up! JMO


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Howard Gaines III said:


> So what was used BEFORE the e-collar? It boils down to using real good training. You MUST be the leader and not give the dog mixed signals. With that said, if properly used it can be a good "tool box" tool; if not properly used you can screw the dog up! JMO



I think it's one of the more easily abused "tools". Just my own observations.


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Some people use flighty stock but I like heavy because I want the dog to expeience he is applying pressure to make them move. The more they do that, the more confident they get. It does require patience. Its literally a few feet at a time. At the last club meeting there was a decent group of sheep out in the six acre field. I took my 9 month old puppy out on a long line and had him walk up and turn their heads and move them a couple of feet, stop, recall. Its all marker work. He's leaning to calmly handle being in the pressure and moving them; therefore, no need to amp. I can drop back behind on the long line and in the beginning keep them from zinging around to head them back to me. My long line method is actually a spin off of a Scottish BC trainer's approach. T


I have 8 training whethers stashed in a paddock that have not graduated to the freezer because they are a little heavier and are perfect for teaching the drive to my more less confident kelpie. They are great to teach new skills on. I prefer working my BC on lighter sheep because he is a bit pushy so with him I have to work on backing him off more and learn about backing pressure off so lighter sheep work better.

The long line is great. I first read about it in Tully Williams book and have found for my pushy, full on BC it worked well.

I would agree that skill would be needed for use of the ecollar in herding or you could quickly spoil a dog. I also think there would be some dogs not suited to its use. I can imagine that my BC is the type of dog where it could be used effectively although I prefer to work with other methods. I wouldnt dream of using it on my timid kelpie.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Sara Waters said:


> I wouldnt dream of using it on my timid kelpie.


I dont know jack about herding, or kelpies. But I do know that sometimes the real soft timid dogs, respond very very well to good ecollar training.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Sara Waters said:


> I have 8 training whethers stashed in a paddock that have not graduated to the freezer because they are a little heavier and are perfect for teaching the drive to my more less confident kelpie. They are great to teach new skills on. I prefer working my BC on lighter sheep because he is a bit pushy so with him I have to work on backing him off more and learn about backing pressure off so lighter sheep work better.
> 
> The long line is great. I first read about it in Tully Williams book and have found for my pushy, full on BC it worked well.
> 
> I would agree that skill would be needed for use of the ecollar in herding or you could quickly spoil a dog. I also think there would be some dogs not suited to its use. I can imagine that my BC is the type of dog where it could be used effectively although I prefer to work with other methods. I wouldnt dream of using it on my timid kelpie.


The e-collar is one of those tools that intellectually I can say could be used effectively if you know all aspects of what you are doing. Unfortunately, with most of the people I've seen using them, I haven't been that impressed with the results or their training process. My other issue with them is that, like a prong collar, I don't see them faded out of the picture. They seem to become a crutch. I don't know if its realistic or not but at some point I'd like to see the dog not have to wear the the collar for reliability. My next door neighbor said he used one with his lab for hunting training in the beginning but was able to discontinue it. 

I've had reactive dogs in herding but have usually found a way to get it under control. Khira's load and explode came out of the blue when she was around 16 months old. Rhemy has that quality but displaying it earlier but the marker training seems to be working. He is starting to cap himself. He'll start to load and then down himself and look at me. He is doing some small pen in the pressure work and I'll add the stock moving pretty soon. Lately, I'm not so concerned with him moving the stock but control in the pressure of the stock. I know he will instinctively cover and balance so why work that now which will only amp his reactivity. So I'm experimenting with only working with the other side of things for awhile .

T


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> I dont know jack about herding, or kelpies. But I do know that sometimes the real soft timid dogs, respond very very well to good ecollar training.


Its waaaayyyy to sophisticated a mind game and done wrong, it would be a disaster. If this dog is like what I think she is, corrections would never come into the picture anyway. 

T


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Its waaaayyyy to sophisticated a mind game and done wrong, it would be a disaster. If this dog is like what I think she is, corrections would never come into the picture anyway.
> 
> T


Oh I imagine so, I just meant in general, it is often that the ecollar is a perfect tool for training a soft, timid dog. 

it can be used without vocal corrections, or leash or other collar pressure, that might shut down a soft timid dog.

just tossing that in for people that might not know that....


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

No I didnt know that about the e-collar. 

My kelpie is not good with corrections, she used to becomes very stressed and you could see her face starting to furrow, and she would run for home. She does respond very well to me showing her what I want so I continually set her up in small steps to succeed and praise her. 

She has come on in leaps and bounds and hasnt run for home in a long while even if I do raise my voice and she has come to really trust me a lot more and I enjoy heading out to work with her. She is from good lines and has good instincts, but she was just too soft and lacked confidence for her previous owner. Probably if I knew what I know now I wouldnt have taken her on either, but she is actually shaping up not bad.

I do believe that in the right hands the e-collar is probably a good tool. I know mine are not the right hands because I dont know exactly what I am doing all the time with herding. I am still learning about sheep, dog, instinct and handler interactions. Dealing with an e-colar at the same time would be a nightmare.

Yes my BC has a tendency to get way to keen and explode, but I can read the situation and body language where it is going to happen now and can take action to redirect him out of that situation. It is always on the drive.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Sara Waters said:


> No I didnt know that about the e-collar.
> 
> My kelpie is not good with corrections, she used to becomes very stressed and you could see her face starting to furrow, and she would run for home. She does respond very well to me showing her what I want so I continually set her up in small steps to succeed and praise her.
> 
> ...


Sara, how is the kelpie? Around age 5, mine all seem to come into their ultimate confidence. With Rhemy, I've gone to close contact and drive. We are going to stay with that for a long time. For a dog with such instinctive cast, in the pressure for extended periods on the drive would amp him. With Khira, I'm trying to not work her to the point of pressure build up/explode. For her its always with the stock running ahead out of her control. Just started really working with setting them up to run as a repetition control exercise and how I want her to deal with it.

T


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Sara Waters said:


> No I didnt know that about the e-collar.
> 
> My kelpie is not good with corrections, she used to becomes very stressed and you could see her face starting to furrow, and she would run for home. She does respond very well to me showing her what I want so I continually set her up in small steps to succeed and praise her.
> 
> ...


I just wanted to make sure, herding application aside, that people saw that post, because a light touch with an ecollar, that the dog does not associate with a physical correction from the handler, can work wonders with a soft dog, many people do not really know that.


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Joby you say you know little of herding yet you feel an ecollar may be a good tool anyway??


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Peter Cavallaro said:


> Joby you say you know little of herding yet you feel an ecollar may be a good tool anyway??


Peter, thought I did not exist, that I was dead to you 

If you actually read what I wrote, I responded more in a general sense of using an ecollar on a dog that was softer, I never once implied that I would use an ecollar in herding, or for a soft herding dog, while it was being trained for herding. I even posted twice to the effect, that I was not addressing the herding aspect, just the soft dog aspect, which I do KNOW is a good tool for some softer, and timid dogs....


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## Peter Cavallaro (Dec 1, 2010)

Joby Becker said:


> Peter, thought I did not exist, that I was dead to you
> 
> ....


yeah what was that about - i can't remember the thread??


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## Sara Waters (Oct 23, 2010)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Sara, how is the kelpie? Around age 5, mine all seem to come into their ultimate confidence. With Rhemy, I've gone to close contact and drive. We are going to stay with that for a long time. For a dog with such instinctive cast, in the pressure for extended periods on the drive would amp him. With Khira, I'm trying to not work her to the point of pressure build up/explode. For her its always with the stock running ahead out of her control. Just started really working with setting them up to run as a repetition control exercise and how I want her to deal with it.
> 
> T


Both my kelpie and BC are 2 1/2 yo, so reletive youngsters. My BC exudes confidence but sometimes leaves his brain behind in favour of pure instinct although I can see him starting to mature and starting to think more. He is also a big casting dog so the drive can amp him up. So I am working on that. He is pretty solid on behind and off commands, when I see him starting to amp up. I am working him on stock that have learnt to slow down if he backs the pressure off, although I only have to turn them to see their mates in the yards and I create a scenario where they are inclined to run.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Joby I agree with what you say about the e-collar and soft dogs but I still think it's one of the most abused tools in the box. I've yet to see anyone in this area that I would see as an expert or even very good at it. That's a lot considering how much it's used here for many different dog venues.
I can only say I wish it weren't so.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Bob Scott said:


> Joby I agree with what you say about the e-collar and soft dogs but I still think it's one of the most abused tools in the box. I've yet to see anyone in this area that I would see as an expert or even very good at it. That's a lot considering how much it's used here for many different dog venues.
> I can only say I wish it weren't so.


you ever check out Tony Lampert?


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Joby Becker said:


> you ever check out Tony Lampert?



No but I'd love to see it used correctly just to watch and learn. The only "seminar" on it in this area was Fred H and that was 8-10 yrs ago. I had no problem missing that. :twisted:
The Tom Rose school here is huge on it's use. Maybe they do a good job but the many students I've seen use it were.....:-k lacking. Little understanding of the how and why.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Bob Scott said:


> No but I'd love to see it used correctly just to watch and learn. The only "seminar" on it in this area was Fred H and that was 8-10 yrs ago. I had no problem missing that. :twisted:
> The Tom Rose school here is huge on it's use. Maybe they do a good job but the many students I've seen use it were.....:-k lacking. Little understanding of the how and why.


well Tony is a SMS trainer.

I have seen a few SMS trainers and was pretty impressed with there skill with the collar. 

As much as I do not like the SMS advertising machine..

A close friend of mine graduated from Tom Rose school a coupla years ago, when we would train together he always used a pinch collar, I did not see him with an ecollar ever.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

TR started puppies out on pinch collars yrs ago. My understanding is that they do the e-collar on pups now. Hopefully that's not 100% true. 
In AKC competition where TR and the club I belonged to both entered we cleaned up. 
I hate seeing any dog in any venue look like they are waiting for the next correction. I saw to much of that.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

I go over there to train and for events every once in a while at the TRS and they often have both a prong and an e-collar at the same time on pups as young as 8 weeks. I am friendly with the folks over there, but this style is not my cup of tea. 

I know Tony from the dock diving circuit. I've only rarely seen him really use the e-collar much, since their use is not allowed on the dock. I am not sure if he does anything with his dogs besides dock diving and as a demo dog though.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Bob Scott said:


> TR started puppies out on pinch collars yrs ago. My understanding is that they do the e-collar on pups now. Hopefully that's not 100% true.
> In AKC competition where TR and the club I belonged to both entered we cleaned up.
> I hate seeing any dog in any venue look like they are waiting for the next correction. I saw to much of that.


ok thought about it, it was like 3 yrs ago.
he worked in the detection dog arena mostly, post graduation. Just got back from afghanistan on an EDD contract. 

he was very happy with his schooling he received.

I am a not an ecollar pro by any means, never took a seminar, learned from friends that are good with them.

You are right it is a tool that is misused a lot, even innocently. Mistakes can and will be made, as in learning anything. But it is not really rocket science. There are a few ways to use them, depending on what you are doing, you just have to know what you are doing (have the collar at the correct level for what you are doing, and have good timing)....

anyone good with Operant conditioning, and Marker training (ALL aspects, not just the "positive only form",for lack of a better term) should have NO problems learning Ecollar methods, and becoming very good with it, in my opinion. Some people can get really great results for lots of complex things, and it is really a humane tool if not used in an "abusive" manner, by someone with basic knowledge and skill, same as any other correction device in that manner, but it is easier to make a mistake, if using for corrections, pushing a button does not give you the same level of awareness as to what you are really doing, when compared to using other methods, something to be careful with for sure.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> ok thought about it, it was like 3 yrs ago.
> he worked in the detection dog arena mostly, post graduation. Just got back from afghanistan on an EDD contract.
> 
> he was very happy with his schooling he received.
> ...


The e-collar thing at TRS was in practice for about the last 5 years. You haven't lived until you've hung out at Saturday morning obedience class with a bunch of pet people zapping dogs with no rhyme or reason with a student trainer telling them all how wonderful they are doing. Since the students also work out of Kennelwood, its pretty much in vogue there as well. 

T


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Student trainers teach most of the classes last time I went there to do anything. 
I was asked to train at Kennelwood some 25-30 yrs ago but it was one teacher to every 25 students. No help if one person was having a difficult time. 
When I trained for NCOTC we had a head trainer and 3-4 helpers to 25 dogs. If someone had a problem the head trainer would direct a helper to work with that person in the back.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> The e-collar thing at TRS was in practice for about the last 5 years. You haven't lived until you've hung out at Saturday morning obedience class with a bunch of pet people zapping dogs with no rhyme or reason with a student trainer telling them all how wonderful they are doing. Since the students also work out of Kennelwood, its pretty much in vogue there as well.
> 
> T


When he gets back from whatever tropical island he is on with his young hot fiance' I'll ask him about it, he very well may have learned the ecollar too, I just never saw him using one in training, when we trained together.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

I recommended him to check out TRS, and a couple other schools, he decided to go there, and was really happy with it. Got him a job making 50,000 salaried training detection dogs in Chicago right after graduation, and about a year after that he was making 100k in afghanistan...not bad for a kid that was 20 when he graduated from there, and is only 23 now. He was an OB/PP client of mine when he was 18, got hooked on dog training...


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I would certainly hope some of the grads made it work for them. I guess it's like anything else. Some will be naturals, some will work to get it and some never will. :wink:


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