# Training recall during apprehension



## Robbie Waldrop (Aug 31, 2013)

Training my newest partner (16 month old GSD). I vowed that I was going to use positive training methods on this one to create a better dog. Training has been going great with tracking, narcotics, even obedience. The one area I am having a little trouble is the recall during apprehension. I do not want to kill his drive by overworking the recall but I am on a time sensitive training schedule due to certifications in a month. I hate rushing any kind of training but I need to get it done. 

Just wondering how some of you are training the recall? Being thorough would really help.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

police K9 with visible suspect?
all positive, on a tight time schedule....

this should be a good read 

carry on..


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Start with a tug and a ball.
Really wind the dog up with the ball ( on a string) while the dog does a solid down. This is important part of it the dog needs to learn to cap his/her drive. Swing the ball round dance about the lot, then release the dog to a tug you whip out your back pocket, or I use a rope lead myself, cos you can always have it. 
Next solid down, wind the dog up with the ball again, this time sling it.
Release the dog BEFORE the ball hits the deck. As the dog takes off down him. As soon as the dog downs release him to the ball.
Next step: train a recall to you rewarded with the tug.
Next step: combine the second step with the third.
Wind the dog up, throw the ball, release to get ball BEFORE it hits the deck, down dog before he gets to the ball and recall to the tug.
Finishing step: throw the ball send dog immediately, recall to tug/lead tug before the ball hits the deck. Extend this by letting the dog get closer and closer to the ball before recall.
Notes: it helps to use a whistle recall, either you whistling or with an actual sports whistle. 
I trained Sali this in one morning, she hasn't done it on a helper yet but I can try it out and vid later this week if you like. Obviously I had already trained a solid down and recall seperately to this sequence.
I know this method works as I have trained every one of my bitework dogs this way as I consider it (along with down at a distance) THE most important thing to teach your dog.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Matt Vandart said:


> Start with a tug and a ball.
> Really wind the dog up with the ball ( on a string) while the dog does a solid down. This is important part of it the dog needs to learn to cap his/her drive. Swing the ball round dance about the lot, then release the dog to a tug you whip out your back pocket, or I use a rope lead myself, cos you can always have it.
> Next solid down, wind the dog up with the ball again, this time sling it.
> Release the dog BEFORE the ball hits the deck. As the dog takes off down him. As soon as the dog downs release him to the ball.
> ...


What comes after this?


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

i'm assuming this Q is for a recall of a civilian psd before/during/after a suspect apprehension
yes/no ??

if yes, some details of the problem(s) would be helpful because i get a very vague mental pic based on the OP and "other things" come to mind besides the recall by itself
- don't need a vid; just details plse


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Trying it with a decoy, lol,


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## Robbie Waldrop (Aug 31, 2013)

Rick, I am talking about a recall from a decoy in a bite suit. USPCA or NAPWDA certification. Decoy is 50 yds away and takes off running, dog is sent and has to be recalled after about 20 yds.

The problem that I am having would not be a problem if I had more time but it's not a luxury I have at this point. Really high drive and I haven't bonded with the dog enough yet for him to execute the commands without trying to self reward. This is only my third week with him so I have threw a lot at him in a short amount of time. This is only to get through certification and then I can really start to build a solid foundation.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

that's tuff given what you have to work with

off the top, 
1. did you start this out at 50 yrds ?
2. can you get more than one decoy to work with at any given time ?
3. it might make a difference when you do these reps in a training session, as in before it gets amped up on a suit bite

either way, K9 needs to lean that a recall is not "game over" and there will be plenty of chances to bite another target once you get it back


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

also, losing control in a motion exercise is one reason to back chain it

just a w.a.g., 
but if you are starting out with the "final exam", break it down and maybe start it with only a "pop quiz" to make it easier on the dog and easier for you to keep it in control


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## Ted Summers (May 14, 2012)

matt gives some good advice above. When you move to a decoy do it somewhere indoors with slick floors. It gives you time to get the dog under control cause once you get on grass it all speeds up. Start out small, 10 yards with a decoy not moving or agitating, recall and reward with the ball/tug from you. Break it up; two recalls one bite. Build distance and agitation. 

This is a common exercise for sport dogs and is not all that hard to train. The big deal is getting the dog to contextualize the command in all situations and making it REALLY clear on what the whole routine/exercise consists of. I'd incorporate and e-collar with a vibrate function also. Vibrate equals recall.... now. Send the dog to the decoy, recall and vibrate at the same time and use the vibrate as a force recall. Recent PSAIII exercise was a send to a fleeing decoy into a remote transport :-o.


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## Robbie Waldrop (Aug 31, 2013)

I have worked on this for about three days because I wanted to everything else going before I started on the recall. I started out with decoy approx 30-40 yds away with bite sleeve. I placed dog on 30 ft lead and would post him out at the full 30 and while decoy gave him some agitation, I gave down command and when he downed, he was rewarded with a bite. He got the hang of this and had no problems downing. I did this so that he could here my voice coming from behind him and relate this to the recall by downing during his pursuit.

Then I started out with him beside me and sent him on the decoy and downing him about 10-15 ft in front of me. This is where he has not been able to grasp the game with me. I have been consistent with this but have seen very little progress. Just wanted to get some suggestions. It seemed like the dogs that I have trained in the past caught on pretty quick but they were also 18 months and older.


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

I also used it specifically as an exercise as part of my programming to get my Mali pup to stop being an asshole.
Drive capping games are your friend here, as in teaching the dog to cap it's own drive, not you 'capping it' for him.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

I was going to type out the protocol to do it. Instead, I just asked Jerry, the owner of Tarheel Canine Training, Inc in Sanford, NC if he'd be willing to help, since it's short notice. Not sure where you are at in NC, but if you can make it over/up/down here, Email him at [email protected] and set up a time this week, since you're short on time.

Schedule half a day. If you have two decoys you can bring with you, even better. He has plenty, but if you bring your own, you won't have to explain it. It will be motivational.

He'll do the half day for free. I'll be heading to Ohio Monday, or I'd help you myself.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

i'm going by what i've read so i could still be way off base

but this is why i mentioned back chaining...
what you have said is that you have trained a restrained engagement and are planning to introduce the recall later 
- you will expect the dog to recall b4 it learns that behavior, and will make it even more difficult by adding the motivation to expect a bite while teaching the recall
- and (imo) the restrained send out has only been partially trained

i would suggest doing it the opposite way
train the recall first (lots of diff ways to train this and some have already been suggested)
get it solid first...MEANING, you can send the dog and it will recall when it's running away from you. you can start with simply a down in motion, but you still need to add the recall
then add a PASSIVE decoy (agitate as the behavior becomes solid)
and then train more recalls

then start giving some bites from the down but sometimes give a recall and make the dog come back b4 you release it for the reward bite

or maybe i am misreading the whole problem and you only need to do a call off after you send the dog
...but you have used "recall", so that's why i was focusing on that part

all this can be done when the dog is in drive. if the basic OB has a solid foundation the dog will cap itself, so i'm assuming the necessary foundations are already there

confusing the way i worded it ??


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Rick...I had the exact same thoughts as you ref the down before the recall. I would train the recall first as well. I know the OP doesn't have much time but he could try restrained recalls with a huge play reward. Have another person hold the dog and have the handler call the dog from different distances and locations. Tug or ball reward when the dog comes. He can put the dog in a down on a 30 foot lead and stand 30 ft behind the dog. Recall the dog to heel then send for the bite or play tug, depends on how the dog does. Do this from varying distances and positions. Always big reward from handler or a bite. Dog should learn that something good always happens when he comes back. Don't be in a hurry to "Proof" the dog, and don't over do each training. Do lots of mini sessions.


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## Jay Quinn (Apr 1, 2012)

GO SEE JERRY!!


and if you absolutely can't make it, low-level e-collar work is how i fixed my security patrol dog up who would not down if he was not leashed or knew that i did not have a hold of said leash... all he needed was to learn that i could still reach out and touch him, leash or no leash, and we made very quick progress...


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Redirected bites and a call off in this video. Not shown on grass but certainly ready to move to grass and increase the distance. If you watch this and a couple other videos you can see the progression. Some of the videos on the Tarheel K9 Channel, if you look, are dogs starting training, after having had a lot of compulsion put on them, as well as dogs trained with this method from the start. The compulsion gets less and less as you go with a poorly trained dog, retraining. Very simple for a green dog to get quickly.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JisnETSlFE4&list=PLUlSxZdFSyHkqWDxpErx4FXhpFTuf9UbM


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Dave Colborn said:


> I was going to type out the protocol to do it. Instead, I just asked Jerry, the owner of Tarheel Canine Training, Inc in Sanford, NC if he'd be willing to help, since it's short notice. Not sure where you are at in NC, but if you can make it over/up/down here, Email him at [email protected] and set up a time this week, since you're short on time.
> 
> Schedule half a day. If you have two decoys you can bring with you, even better. He has plenty, but if you bring your own, you won't have to explain it. It will be motivational.
> 
> He'll do the half day for free. I'll be heading to Ohio Monday, or I'd help you myself.


Thats the coolest thing I have seen on this forum yet


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## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Oh, could the OP clarify if it is recalling off the bite you are trying to train or recall before the dog actually engages?


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## Robbie Waldrop (Aug 31, 2013)

Matt, it is recall before he engages. I appreciate everyone's ideas as I have a plan of action for the next month. Thanks again everybody.


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## Steve Burger (Jan 2, 2009)

You can get all caught up in details and techniques, none of which in my mind matter much. Back up to the basic training principle.. a dog will willingly move from discomfort to comfort but will not willingly go from comfort to discomfort. The bottom line is there has to be a bottom line for the dog. What is the consequence for not listening to the handler?

I don't fully comprehend what the op meant by "I want to teach positive reward so I will have a better dog". Is he talking positive only? If so good luck getting your dog to be reliable in any circumstances, much less under the kind of distraction which is present in protection work and full on prey drive. Now I think teaching/showing initially with positive reward is the way to go and "teaching" using compulsion is not the way to go, but I don't really believe it is possible to secure and proof a dog in an exercise unless corrections are used. 

Once the exercise is learned and the dog shows he can work through mistakes and distractions to turn off the correction/conflict/stimulation then you can start to increase the level of distraction.

Where is the comfort for the dog for adhering to the recall. Where is the discomfort for not coming?


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Dave Colborn said:


> Redirected bites and a call off in this video. Not shown on grass but certainly ready to move to grass and increase the distance. If you watch this and a couple other videos you can see the progression. Some of the videos on the Tarheel K9 Channel, if you look, are dogs starting training, after having had a lot of compulsion put on them, as well as dogs trained with this method from the start. The compulsion gets less and less as you go with a poorly trained dog, retraining. Very simple for a green dog to get quickly.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JisnETSlFE4&list=PLUlSxZdFSyHkqWDxpErx4FXhpFTuf9UbM


 This is very similar to what I do. I started with two decoys and moved up to 5 in a short time. It's a cool drill and you are only limited by your imagination. I inherited a Mali from another handler and he had no recall. This exercise fixed him great.


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## Guy Williams (Jun 26, 2012)

You know you need to go back to basics and build a good foundation but to get a quick fix, this is what I would do. Clearly the dog already understands your recall command. Have the decoy out there with no/little movement. Send the dog and give early (achievable) recall. On a trailing line if need be just to ensure he doesn't get to ignore you. Bite reward on pillow, ball throw etc. As much fun as you can have. As he becomes reliable, add more movement from the helper. Keep it achiveable. 

Add a second helper to appear behind you and take a bite to encourage a speedy return. Occasionally when the dog gets back to you, re-send him to take the bite. It is a delay rather than an end to the exercise.

Don't rush. Spend as much time on shorter, achievable recalls as you can. Then when you start building up to your full distance set things up so that the helper goes into a building/vehicle etc. If your dog does fail the recall he will get no reward. No matter what happened at the other end, reward when he gets back. We set it up to ensure he does fail because we want him to know that failing the recall is unrewarding.

I have built some very consistent recalls using that approach. Make sure you do send him to bite enough to prevent hesitation in going out though. Keep us posted with what you do and what works for you.


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