# Working dog angulation



## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

This question was asked in a different forum about over angulation in working shepherds but wanted to hit a broader base of knowledge. 

The statement was made that angulation is not an issue in a working dog. Is anyone aware of any documentation either with research or documented with anecdotal life experience that an angulated dog has more back, hip, or knee issued that the straighter backed German Shepherd?

If not in a clinical sense, then in a work life. Do you get just as many years of service from either structured dog?

thanks,


----------



## Misty Wegner (May 22, 2015)

Angulation of the hocks makes the dog look like its back is sloped, but it isn't. "Roaching" or the upward hump in a back in many lines is not a good aspect either...

The proper angulation allows the shepherd to trot long distances without tiring (it is a trotting dog), power for turns, leaps, and other athletic actions. Properly angled, the dog is in better shape to have less chance of injury; other possible inherited problems may still be possible as they are genetically driven.

Too much slope and the dog is working too hard, and while it has the impression of 'floating' it is unnatural and unbalanced. Too little slope and the dog loses his impulsion from behind in the trotting manner. The GSD is not a husky, it is too long for the short upright hock that a husky or other breeds have for propulsion...

As with all things, if something is out of balance, the potential for further destruction of supporting limbs has merit and potential; although other factors may have more impact in that happening.

Finally, if someone is breeding too much/little angulation in a GSD, then it is very likely they are ignoring other very important aspects to the breed thus contributing to the possibilities of HD, ED, and other scary and detrimental ailments in the breed. So being able to pinpoint to specifically because the angulation was too much or too little might not be a simple equation... It does seem to trend, that too much angulation and the dog has health issues and structural integrity issues (not to mention, just looks wrong).

Ok...that's my thoughts:razz:


----------



## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Started looking for papers and found this one 

http://cal.vet.upenn.edu/projects/saortho/chapter_91/91mast.htm

long but they lay out "normal" before defining problems.

then found this: 

http://breedingbetterdogs.com/article/structure-and-movement-pt-2

which says pretty much the same as the first just with layman's terms and some nice pictures of normal or abnormal.

I would like to see the full study but found this excerpt which lists some percentages:

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/07/170727221255.htm


----------



## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

We've had 2 show line Shepherds in the last 10 years. The last one was a fear biting shitter. The first one was worked by my best friend. A huge black/red classic show line. The dog was the best in the unit for about 2 years. His physical stature (angulation) was a hinderance on the road. He was fairly slow, could not jump, and appeared to gas out sooner than the other dogs but being as the handler did his due dilligence the dog was the best it could be. He also had a few quirks which I attributed to the bereeding. Dog only lasted 4 years as opposed to 6-7 years for a working line GSD or Mal. I've never seen a SL GSD capable of being a decent police dog until this one. Haven't seen one since.


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I always like to compare a dogs movement and angulation to the wild canids.

You will never see a wold or coyote with extreme angulation simply because nature eliminates faulty movement.

Correct movement has the rear foot landing in the footstep of the front foot. 

Over angulation makes the rear foot have to go outside of and forward of where the front foot lands.

If not for this going outside and further forward of the rear foot then the dog would be stumbling over it's own feet.

It also can create a crabbing movement.

Not of this is energy saving or effective for movement. 

In 2007 I went to watch the World Schtzhund Championship her in the States.

Very obedient dog yet, as howard mentions it was very poor in going over the meter jump, the A-Frame and in the courage test where it was running full out down the field. 

Before the late 1960s and early 1970s thee were GSD that were top rated in both show and working competitions. 

The original "thought" behind breeding for more angulation was that it "looked" like the dog was covering more ground in the run around the ring but that 5-10 mins in the ring never revealed the lack of endurance that the working dogs see on a daily basis. 

Breeding for cookie cutter looks has destroyed many if not most breeds from where they were 100-150 yrs ago before the evolution of the dog "shows" in the Victorian era.


----------



## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Can you define "angulation" because I cannot find a definition and most people sat different things.

Point of interest running dogs with a shallower "angle of croup" and more vertical hock performs better and runs faster/longer.


----------



## Khoi Pham (Apr 17, 2006)

It should have no angulation just like how they were in the 1900s


----------



## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Sarah Platts said:


> The statement was made that angulation is not an issue in a working dog. Is anyone aware of any documentation either with research or documented with anecdotal life experience that an angulated dog has more back, hip, or knee issued that the straighter backed German Shepherd?
> 
> If not in a clinical sense, then in a work life. Do you get just as many years of service from either structured dog?
> 
> thanks,


In what context was it stated that angulation is not an issue for a working dog? How is a working dog defined by the conversationalist of this topic?

To answer your last question, in a word, no. It is my contention that only a small percentage of the population works dogs to such extremes to enable them to comment intelligently.

I found this on line, it seems to fit my personal experiences and opinion I have on the topic.

Last, what Bob states about single tracking dogs is absolutely correct. Wild canids fit the form that enables single tracking. My molosser was the only dog I ever saw be able to move in this matter and this continued throughout the life of the dog.

*What is meant by "form follows function"?*

When we say "form follows function" in a dog breeding context we mean that the most efficient physique for a particular breed purpose will, over time, be produced simply by mating dogs that successfully fulfil that purpose, with no need for breeders to hold theories about the relative lengths and angular relationships of bones of the skeleton, or to breed according with such theories. The most successful examples of dogs able to fulfil their purpose will automatically be the ones that are best adapted physically to that purpose.

Novice breeders sometimes fall into the fallacy of believing that in order to breed a good working dog, it is necessary to practice canine engineering, attempting to construct a physical machine according to a plan or blueprint laid out in the breed standard. This amounts to an inversion of "form follows function" into "function should follow form." In practice, the most critical factors in working dog performance are usually mental, behavioural, and metabolic; the dog must have a mentality, behavioural traits, and energy metabolism adapted to breed purpose. These things are far more important than theories of "conformation," many of which are often far removed from the form that is actually most efficient for a given purpose.


----------



## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

To add to this, for those who have not seen it before, it illustrates a number of key components cited as being problematic.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OOLdSG73eB8


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Nicol, excellent video!

I will add that correct front movement is as important as correct rear movement.

Either one will create strength and endurance problems.


----------



## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

http://www.louisdonald.com/hindquarter-of-the-german-shepherd-dog.html

Very long article but says a lot. Good pics showing the issues. Lots of diagrams. Wish I could find something similar for the shoulder/elbow/front pastern angulations.


----------



## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Nicole Stark said:


> In what context was it stated that angulation is not an issue for a working dog? How is a working dog defined by the conversationalist of this topic?


the guy has GSDs that he breeds and sells to LE. Told an officer something along the lines that angulation didn't matter in the working dog.




Nicole Stark said:


> When we say "form follows function" in a dog breeding context we mean that the most efficient physique for a particular breed purpose will, over time, be produced simply by mating dogs that successfully fulfil that purpose, with no need for breeders to hold theories about the relative lengths and angular relationships of bones of the skeleton, or to breed according with such theories. The most successful examples of dogs able to fulfil their purpose will automatically be the ones that are best adapted physically to that purpose.
> 
> Novice breeders sometimes fall into the fallacy of believing that in order to breed a good working dog, it is necessary to practice canine engineering, attempting to construct a physical machine according to a plan or blueprint laid out in the breed standard. This amounts to an inversion of "form follows function" into "function should follow form." In practice, the most critical factors in working dog performance are usually mental, behavioural, and metabolic; the dog must have a mentality, behavioural traits, and energy metabolism adapted to breed purpose. These things are far more important than theories of "conformation," many of which are often far removed from the form that is actually most efficient for a given purpose.


I will have to go back and see if I can find the article but there was a famous duel between two competing German Shorthair kennels in Germany. 

One Kennel says if you breed the correctly structured dog - without regard as to whether the parents are in fact doing the job - the resulting puppies will be able to do the job irregardless if any of the parents have done it. Function follows form. 

Another Kennel say that you should be only breeding dogs that have, in fact, actually performed the job. Form follows Function.

So the great experiment began. One kennel breeding dogs that look great but had never done the work, and the other breeding dogs that was actually able to perform the work. It ended up that the first kennel dissolved as no one was buying dogs that looked good but couldn't hunt. The second kennel prospered and they found that the ability to perform and do the work developed the form.

I know of one kennel where if the owner took a dog out to the field, and the dog was gun shy, well....., that dog probably didn't return. They kept the genetics that excelled in the field they were being bred to perform in. Their dogs had excellent structure because if the dog didn't have the structure then it couldn't perform the job adequately.


----------



## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

Seems like those dogs actually had a reason to be gun shy.........



> What is meant by "form follows function"?
> 
> When we say "form follows function" in a dog breeding context we mean that the most efficient physique for a particular breed purpose will, over time, be produced simply by mating dogs that successfully fulfil that purpose, with no need for breeders to hold theories about the relative lengths and angular relationships of bones of the skeleton, or to breed according with such theories. The most successful examples of dogs able to fulfil their purpose will automatically be the ones that are best adapted physically to that purpose.
> 
> Novice breeders sometimes fall into the fallacy of believing that in order to breed a good working dog, it is necessary to practice canine engineering, attempting to construct a physical machine according to a plan or blueprint laid out in the breed standard. This amounts to an inversion of "form follows function" into "function should follow form." In practice, the most critical factors in working dog performance are usually mental, behavioural, and metabolic; the dog must have a mentality, behavioural traits, and energy metabolism adapted to breed purpose. These things are far more important than theories of "conformation," many of which are often far removed from the form that is actually most efficient for a given purpose.


This ^^


----------



## Misty Wegner (May 22, 2015)

Which sums up why (and no slam meant to show line breeders) most show line dogs are unable to perform what they were initially bred to be, but look 'pretty.' Also, why I believe in the breeders that consistently work their own breeding stock rather than just by a 'titled' dog and join two together believing magic will happen.

Also why some mutts far outshine their 'purebred' counterparts... Human influence, unless wisely and carefully handled, usually does more harm then not...


----------



## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

I got Sali and Indie from breeders who's dogs had actual real life jobs for this reason. It appears to have worked out well.


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Good article Sarah but I willl strongly disagree with the pics that show "correct" angulation.

The 1920s and 30s dogs were in my mind correct.

The 70s is whee the real issues started.

The American show line is worse then the German line show dogs in angulation but the German dog have terrible backs, often called bannana backs.

In addition the Gernman dogs can be huge in spite of weight described in standards. 

I think today's mal is probably what the very early GSD looked like.

I love the big headed, big boned dogs often seen but it's not correct.

Never showed GSDs but from 12-15 yrs in the show ring with terriers I can say that judges will put up the dogs that are professionally handled for two basic reasons. 

The winning dogs are more often then not being shown by professional handlers.

Judges get paid by the number of dogs shown before them and the pros may show many dogs on a given day compared to the owner handler that may never have more then 1-2 a day.

In fairness I will say that a good handler, pro or not learns what judges like in a dog.

Some judges are partial to good movement, some may like a good head structure, etc.

I kept serious records on this and knew what do I would show under a given judge and I finished half a dozen terriers to there CH. Mostly my own but a few for others. 

Once a dog earns the CH it then shows in the specials class and thats where the big name handlers usually prevail. 

It still boils down to a beauty pagent.


----------



## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

I think the GSD's of the turn of the century up to the mid-50s are what I like. I showed my first sar dog in the GSP shows. Come to find out he was the 'old German style' of shorthair. Solid heavy bone, big feet, stout body. He got all his single points but I would told that if I wanted to finish him would have to seek out the judges that like the 'old style' versus the slimmer, thinner boned American lines. I never did. I didn't have the time, money, or inclination to campaign a dog. And besides, Jack hated the show ring and I suspect he only dragged around it because I was asking him to. 

I had a german guy tell me one time that even in Germany the line has split. The dogs that do well in the herding trials don't do well in the sport ring and vis-a-versa. Says it was a real problem getting a SCH title on a herding dog which was needed before they would issue a breeding certificate.


----------



## Khoi Pham (Apr 17, 2006)

There is no way those roaches back or extreme angulation dog that the show people are breeding could do this. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aiCb1fI6gyg


----------



## Misty Wegner (May 22, 2015)

I don't know, maybe this will be sounding a little too harsh, but....

If someone wants a 'picture perfect' dog and to bred for that image, then get a statue or a figurine.. Leave the working dogs alone! I am all for a 'beautiful' FUNCTIONING and healthy dog vs. one that 'floats', or looks like a porcelain dog.... JMHO


----------



## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Khoi Pham said:


> There is no way those roaches back or extreme angulation dog that the show people are breeding could do this.


Probably not. I paused it after the first jump to see how the dog was standing. Wow! normal hocks and standing on the pads instead of the canon bone. 

Now that's a German Shepherd.


----------



## Khoi Pham (Apr 17, 2006)

This is 2016 Cruffs champ, look at how she walks and how weak the rear end is. Made me sick. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QBq6gM0sI7A


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Khoi Pham said:


> There is no way those roaches back or extreme angulation dog that the show people are breeding could do this. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aiCb1fI6gyg


Nice video! 

Having seen show line dogs struggle over the one meter and the A frame i can't imagine one doing this. 

I've also seen the GSDCA SV Nationals (show line) and they have to earn a SCH title in order to get their breed CH.

Of the 160 or so entered in the bite work competition there were "MAYBE" 5-6 that I would bring home. 

Owners outside the ring were PRAYING that their dogs would engage. 

Many really weak dogs were given their V rating and some were ran off the field. 

The decoy/helper was very well known, well respected and I've see him working real working dogs but what I saw this day just to get dogs through was sad.

IMLTHO, the GSD is at least two different breeds today.


----------



## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

Excellent article Sarah ! 
- i thought i knew a lot about canine anatomy and bio mechanics until i read that article. I learned a LOT more about both.
Of course it will never change an opinion that’s already been cast in concrete by those who already know everything. And no one will actually take the time to read through it all with an open mind. this forum has little use for details, even if they are science based //lol//

this forum is totally anecdoatal and opinion based.
anecdotes are interesting but never definitive so the learning value is minimal.
- and you all know what opinions are like //lol//

Posting a show dog competition clip where all they do is walk in a circle proves NOTHING either. 
- TOTALLY apples and oranges :-(((
- posting clips of dog show beauty contests should be banned on a working dog forum

I hate to use the slang “roach back”, but i’m pretty sure this is an example of the type of 'roach back' the article was discussing : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2pDCskkC9I

- YES/NO ?

- maybe i got it wrong, but if you want to bitch, bitch about this type gsd and discuss this level of IPO and how it relates to roach backs and angulation ... and at least compare apples to apples !


----------



## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

rick smith said:


> Of course it will never change an opinion that’s already been cast in concrete by those who already know everything. And no one will actually take the time to read through it all with an open mind. *this forum has little use for details* //lol//


Who or what are you talking about?

As for your last sentence about details, read my first post on this subject. Notice anything in particular? Say, something that might have influenced whether or not I read the articles?


----------



## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

I read as well. 

Anecdote and opinion have value, much of the really valuable science started off as anecdote and/or opinion.


----------



## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

I hate to use the slang “roach back”, but i’m pretty sure this is an example of the type of 'roach back' the article was discussing : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2pDCskkC9I

- YES/NO ?


----------



## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

rick smith said:


> Excellent article Sarah !
> - i thought i knew a lot about canine anatomy and bio mechanics until i read that article. I learned a LOT more about both.


It took me a while to read/understand it but makes me look at structure a whole lot different.


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I've read about and looked at GSD structure and dogs in general for as long as I can remember and will stand by my comment about comparing their structure with the coyote and the wolf as being light yrs better then what is out there today in the show ring. 

I also feel that MOST breeds in the show ring are a far cry for the originally functional dogs bred for and these changes came about because of the early days of dogs shows when it became a beauty contest.


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Rick said
"I hate to use the slang “roach back”, but i’m pretty sure this is an example of the type of 'roach back' the article was discussing : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2pDCskkC9I"


I see a fairly nice back in that video and nothing like the roach back/bannana back that was on Saraha's video she posted. Maybe a bit large but it got the job done.

I'm glad to see that in the "International" dog show video you showed that there are good show line dogs out there but from my fairly long experience of seeing GSD show dogs, both German and American lines that few will be able to function at what they were bred for. 

I also commented on the two SV National dog shows I've personally seen that there were probably 5-6 out of 160 that I would have taken home so I don't think anyone, including me thinks or thought that there are no good show dogs out there that can function in a working dog world. 

I will also say that not all working line dogs will be able to perform at what the breed was bred to do but the odds are in the working lines favor that function WILL follow form.

The show line dogs, when compared to working line dogs serve no more function for what they were bred for then the man in the moon....on average. ;-)


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Rick said

VOf course it will never change an opinion that’s already been cast in concrete by those who already know everything. And no one will actually take the time to read through it all with an open mind. *this forum has little use for details* //lol//


This would possibly make sense if your would mention who those folks are that "already know everything". 

What "details" are you commenting about? 

It would also help also if the rest of us knew what "details" you were talking about.

We all have opinions and can often disagree but I've not seen ANYONE on the forum that "already knows everything".


----------



## Misty Wegner (May 22, 2015)

Yes to an extent and lots of angulation in the hocks that is too much for the breed.. 

But as to whether people read the articles or just offer opinions, immediate, that was presumptuous.. I read most posted but comment on little.. Yes, opinions proliferate but usually based on some experience.. Maybe not always backed up by a complete argument for their position,.. 

I think few could argue the GSD has been grossly abused in the breeding programs.. Looks became more the focal point because money could be had for a 'pretty' dog as opposed to a working dog that functions and is healthy, and oh, looks good... Very sad and disappointing.. But their are breeders out there that breed for the standard and for health, function and overall strengthening of the good qualities wanted... Unfortunately, their are fewer of these breeders then those breeding for looks and the $$.. Thus, 'roach' backs, 'from dogs' and the like occur... 

Today I saw 3 purebred GSD's. Mine a working line whose breeder bred for function (and good looking if I do say so myself, although a bit large and out of standard - just he happenstance and not bred for size) , a byb but a graceful moving dog with good drives and becoming a great SAR dog albeit not a 'looker' beauty wise (although he has qualities, just a bit hodgepodge) , and a show line/American lines bred for $$.... My girl, well she rocks! She is powerful, confident and effective in her job.. Went all day working with focus and gas to spare... The byb, worked hard and could have kept going as well.. And the show line who crab trotted, looked disjointed in movement, had nerve problems (both our SAR dogs had to jump on a VERY wobbly and narrow stand and walk across an 8'spread 5" wide and 3ft above ground with it shaking.. They did it cautiously several times) and barked at everyone with hackles raised etc..but he 'looked' like a GSD of current times.. 

Point being; looks ain't everything and I will stick with function vs looks for looks will come if function is valid.. I'm tired.. I think I'm rambling, lol..


----------



## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

I would also like to see the GSD more upright on the front pasterns and not sloping back at a 25-45 degree angle. To me, this is throwing the weight load to land behind the foot, pushing down the front pasterns ever more creating joint problems down the road. Like driving a car with bad shock absorbers.


----------



## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Misty Wegner said:


> And the show line who crab trotted, looked disjointed in movement, had nerve problems (both our SAR dogs had to jump on a VERY wobbly and narrow stand and walk across an 8'spread 5" wide and 3ft above ground with it shaking.. They did it cautiously several times) and barked at everyone with hackles raised etc..but he 'looked' like a GSD of current times..


It's kinda interesting to make leaps of logic. Hoss hurt one of his back legs the other week. Pretty much can walk on it but runs 3-legged. Can use the back leg but only on the straightaways and you can see him working to stabilize the weight shifts of his body to 3.25 legs. Now when he walks, the whole back end shifts around. He has trouble with fine foot placement and movement that requires the leg to plant firmly and hold a good share of weight while the other back leg moves forward in position. For a GSD with a banana rear leg, cannon bone dragging the ground, and being cow-hocked to boot, I'm not sure these types of dogs would even be capable of performing on anything but flat ground because I just don't see how they could be able to plant a rear leg accurately and then be able to trust the leg to hold that weight.


----------



## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Sorry to hear that Sarah. I hope Hoss heals up soon.


----------



## Misty Wegner (May 22, 2015)

Sarah said:..... For a GSD with a banana rear leg, cannon bone dragging the ground, and being cow-hocked to boot, I'm not sure these types of dogs would even be capable of performing on anything but flat ground because I just don't see how they could be able to plant a rear leg accurately and then be able to trust the leg to hold that weight.

I agree absolutely! Showline for the most part has royally screwed the GSD locomotion and nerves... Really scary and sad... 

Ironically, Akivah hurt his leg a few weeks ago, a back left leg.. Same scenario as Hoss and movement. I think he pulled a gaskin or stifle muscle and when I had the chiropractor look at him his patella was out. He adjusted him and he is 98% sound now.. Just a slight off set of weight after playing with my girl on occasion. Hope Hoss heals quickly and fully..


----------



## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

I didn't think of that. I was thinking the pulled muscle but he knocked his leg pretty bad several weeks ago and could be the problem as it keeps cropping up when he does quarter-horse turns.


----------

