# Dog disengaging decoy if the decoy/helper throws a ball.



## Alex Scott (Jun 16, 2013)

I have been reading more and more about if your dog is trained in prey drive and as the handler you instruct your dog to engage the decoy, and the decoy throws a ball that you dog will disengage the decoy and chase the ball. 

Apparently, in prey drive a ball is a higher priority target to the dog that the decoy. This seems like nothing but lies and misinformation to me. 

From my studies in the law, I have learnt not to jump to conclusion and not to apply my own experiences to the facts and that is what I am going to try to do here.

Is there any truth to this rumor? Are their some dogs that this school of thought would apply to?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Alex Scott said:


> I have been reading more and more about if your dog is trained in prey drive and as the handler you instruct your dog to engage the decoy, and the decoy throws a ball that you dog will disengage the decoy and chase the ball.
> 
> Apparently, in prey drive a ball is a higher priority target to the dog that the decoy. This seems like nothing but lies and misinformation to me.
> 
> ...


links, or source of text?


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

That would be totally dependent on both the individual dog and how it was trained. If the dog prefers the tennis balls over a bite then it just may not be the right dog OR the training wasn't correct for what the dog was going to be used for. 
In that video it's quite possible the dog was trained to do a hold and bark for a ball and was never shown how the guy tossing the ball could **** him up if he ignored said bad guy.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Bob Scott said:


> That would be totally dependent on both the individual dog and how it was trained. If the dog prefers the tennis balls over a bite then it just may not be the right dog OR the training wasn't correct for what the dog was going to be used for.
> In that video it's quite possible the dog was trained to do a hold and bark for a ball and was never shown how the guy tossing the ball could **** him up if he ignored said bad guy.


Bob, in that other video in the other thread, the one with the decoy dropping the ball, the dog is an 8 month old puppy. I think you hit the nail on the head, most likely the dog is being taught to bark at the man, and the ball is the reward.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Joby Becker said:


> Bob, in that other video in the other thread, the one with the decoy dropping the ball, the dog is an 8 month old puppy. I think you hit the nail on the head, most likely the dog is being taught to bark at the man, and the ball is the reward.



At 8 months old I suspect it could be cleaned up easily enough. :twisted: 
That's how we taught SAR dogs to bark alert at the "victim". Obviously there was no need to bite the victim.  :lol:


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

I was more interested in seeing where it is being said that dogs trained in prey will abandon the decoy and chase the ball...so i could check it out, read the articles or maybe post there if it was a message board.


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## Alex Scott (Jun 16, 2013)

Bob Scott said:


> That would be totally dependent on both the individual dog and how it was trained. If the dog prefers the tennis balls over a bite then it just may not be the right dog OR the training wasn't correct for what the dog was going to be used for.
> In that video it's quite possible the dog was trained to do a hold and bark for a ball and was never shown how the guy tossing the ball could **** him up if he ignored said bad guy.


Thank you for your response. How would a dog get in a position where the ball is preferred over the bite? Could you identify the training errors that would need to be made? So they can be avoided.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

any links to these discussions online? where are you reading this more and more?


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## Alex Scott (Jun 16, 2013)

Joby Becker said:


> any links to these discussions online? where are you reading this more and more?



I read it a while back. I have searched through my internet browsing history but I can't seem to find it. My interest was sparked recently when there was a thread that again discussed this issue. I think the substance of that thread was something along the lines of a forum member wanting to breed a Dutch Shepherd to a Malinois and he wanted to keep about 8 dogs, I could be getting confused, I don't know. Anyway the thread went off in a tangent and deteriorated in to a discussion about not rewarding a dog with a ball, or phasing out playing ball entirely because of the likelihood that the ball would be a higher priority for the dog than the bite. Again, I could be wrong but I believe Mike Suttle expressed how he rewards his dogs with the ball and there are no such issues. Joby, you contribute to almost every thread, do you remember the one which I am referring to?


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## Alex Scott (Jun 16, 2013)

Here, this is what I was talking about that reignited my interest: http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f30/malanois-dutch-shepherd-mix-27313/index3.html


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

re: "Apparently, in prey drive a ball is a higher priority target to the dog that the decoy." (This seems like nothing but lies and misinformation to me.)
..... "From my studies in the law, I have learnt not to jump to conclusion"

looks to me like you just did 

also, there was nothing on that link that had anything to do with your original post .... or are we supposed to go thru 11 pages of a dumb thread to find it ??

YOU said you have been reading "more and more"
...but can't remember where and can't find it in your browsing history
....and ask Joby to find what you were thinking about

........but for some reason you start a thread on it anyway ](*,)

makes no sense to me but i'm sure you had a reason for writing what you wrote


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## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

If the dog is in high defense while guarding, he needs to be switched to prey before he will take the ball reward. Some decoys can switch drives in a dog by extremely subtle body movement. 

Pretty normal technique used, does not mean the dog will now begin to prefer the ball over the decoy and his chances at protection training are ruined. Some dogs live for the fight and this is a method of balancing out the drives.


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## Alex Scott (Jun 16, 2013)

rick smith said:


> re: "Apparently, in prey drive a ball is a higher priority target to the dog that the decoy." (This seems like nothing but lies and misinformation to me.)
> ..... "From my studies in the law, I have learnt not to jump to conclusion"
> 
> looks to me like you just did "
> ...


Child please!

As a primary contributor to that "dumb thread" you could just look through your previous posts to find a reference, if you were so inclined. 

Why do people like yourself feel the need to make snide comments that create a digression away from the purpose of the forum? Which is to discuss dogs. 

RE: Conclusions - I didn't jump to a conclusion, that's why I started this thread and Bob's contributions provided the information I was after. 

RE: Thread - There is a discussion about the issue on that thread, there is a lot of BS to wade through, which you personally contributed to. If you and people you didn't write so much crap, you would have made it easier on yourself. 

RE: More and More - That is an expression that by my definition means, more frequently occurring. 

RE: Browsing history - You should attempt trying to find a singular thread in your browsing history and see how difficult that actually is, the catch words that are used to a search to work are so reoccurring that it is almost rendered mute.

Of your 2000+ posts, how many are dog related?


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Alex, I'd like to read where this has been in print "more and more" too. I read a ton of dog boards, and this doesn't ring a bell to me.

If you could just post a couple of links, that'd be great. Thanks.



I'm not seeking to be snide or to misdirect; "lies and misinformation" are interesting .... even more interesting when they are "more frequently occurring."


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## Peter Cho (Apr 21, 2010)

Classical connection. What would Pavlov say about this?


Hey, if it works....cool. And this is 8 month old. Puppy fun, I suppose.


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## Guy Williams (Jun 26, 2012)

In the first video on the other thread the decoy drops the ball for the dog after the handler gives the click. This is a common way of starting young dogs to do a bark and hold as someone pointed out. The dog is in muzzle and I would guess that they are starting to get the dog used to working in muzzle ready for the later stages of training. If this was all they did then I agree they may have issues with the dog not viewing the helper as an adversary etc. They would also potentially have problems with the dog being distracted by balls later on.

I think this is the sort of training problem Alex picked up on from the other thread where Rick Scott suggests that sport dogs would be useless if the intruder had a tenis ball.

I agree that some sport dogs may have an issue with this scenario if that situation was outside the scope of their training but it far more likely to be because they haven't been worked in defence or have never done any civil work because it doesn't sound like too many people on this forum use balls as rewards in protection training.

With dogs trained to do the bark and hold as in the video it is possible that they recall the dog from tuggers and sleeves using a ball as a reward as I do. In the early stages this works fine as it is just foundation training.

Problems can arise if the dog isn't given an opportunity to learn not to be distracted by balls or any other distraction for that matter.

There was a Tv programme in the Uk that showed Police rewarding their drugs dogs with tennis balls. Later in the football season the (not drugs) dogs were deployed to a disorder where the crowd started throwing tennis ball all over the place. Needless to say it highlighted some training needs for some of the dogs.

Like any training method or system, it can be used to good effect or bad effect depending on the quality of the trainer. Here is a clip to another Police dog who probably didn't aught to be doing what he is.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lOPSqTKsBBI


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Even when a dog is in straight prey drive they may not leave a decoy for a ball or tug. I've seen 3 and 4 month old puppies refuse to let go of a suit even though the handler was waving a tug, ball, food, etc all over the place trying to "trade" and reward an out. My current dog was like that at that age, he outed for food twice, and a toy twice. I thought "man, this will be easy", next session every time I put food or toy near him he bit harder and looked at me like "are you crazy, I'm not letting go, get that out of my face" And he's not unique.

I've also seen pups, not just the ones previously mentioned, go right past a pile of balls on the ground to bite a suit.

So even if worked in straight prey, not every dog is going to leave a decoy for a toy.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> Even when a dog is in straight prey drive they may not leave a decoy for a ball or tug. I've seen 3 and 4 month old puppies refuse to let go of a suit even though the handler was waving a tug, ball, food, etc all over the place trying to "trade" and reward an out. My current dog was like that at that age, he outed for food twice, and a toy twice. I thought "man, this will be easy", next session every time I put food or toy near him he bit harder and looked at me like "are you crazy, I'm not letting go, get that out of my face" And he's not unique.
> 
> I've also seen pups, not just the ones previously mentioned, go right past a pile of balls on the ground to bite a suit.
> 
> So even if worked in straight prey, not every dog is going to leave a decoy for a toy.



+1
The dog selects what has a higher value and that can be controlled somewhat through training OR the dog really enjoys the engagement with the decoy.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

If you want to substitute the word ball for sleeves then we might have an actual discussion.


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## Guy Williams (Jun 26, 2012)

Joby Becker said:


> If you want to substitute the word ball for sleeves then we might have an actual discussion.


This may not seem like a real discussion to you but I can assure you it is. For training the motivational "out" for want of a better expression the training starts by getting the dog to leave one item for another, putting it under command control and ensuring the dog is rewarded sufficiently at the "out" end that you get a consistent, reliable out.

It starts on balls and rags and builds up to the helper. The "out" is reliable before the dog ever gets as far as biting the helper and you increase the excitement level hand in hand with the control elements.

Add to that bark and hold training using a ball, standoffs using a ball and if you don't work past this you will end up with a dog that may well be distracted by a ball being thrown although I would stop short of saying they preferred it. They just tend to anticipate the "out" because that is how they have been trained.

I certainly recognize the original post as being a concern for me. It isn't the dogs though it is the training method that causes that issue.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Guy Williams said:


> This may not seem like a real discussion to you but I can assure you it is. For training the motivational "out" for want of a better expression the training starts by getting the dog to leave one item for another, putting it under command control and ensuring the dog is rewarded sufficiently at the "out" end that you get a consistent, reliable out.
> 
> It starts on balls and rags and builds up to the helper. The "out" is reliable before the dog ever gets as far as biting the helper and you increase the excitement level hand in hand with the control elements.
> 
> ...


Yeah Guy, Im still trying to get past the BS sniff test on the whole lead in, in the original post on the thread in my head. 

I think what you are discussing kinds goes into a lot more detail about a potential issue that can crop up concerning the use of the ball in a variety of ways as a main training aid. Your additional discussons about the variety of the use of the ball adds a much more pointed focus of the thread than the original idea that _"if your dog is trained in prey drive and as the handler you instruct your dog to engage the decoy, and the decoy throws a ball that you dog will disengage the decoy and chase the ball."_ 

I looked at the original post in the scope of the statement, saying if you train in prey, your dog will abadon his engagement and chase the ball.

I agree this can become an issue if the ball is used that much for everything and it is not worked out, and it is used in the manner that you are now talking about, that can become an issue with some dogs for sure.. 

My response was based on the OPs statements, and the source that the opinion came from, which stated this..

*'Sport' as in dogs that are trained to bite the same sleeve over and over. The same dogs that when confronted with an intruder that has a tennis ball become useless.*

Neither that statement or the OP thread starter here mentioned anything about using a ball in the manner that you are refferring to..and that is where my talk of sleeves entered into the picture.

Your input that expounds on the specific use of the ball in various manners that can cause issues, is also a great way to make this an actual discussion, kudos to you for turning this thread around


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

As a side note:

Rick Scott in that original thread was talking about a sport dog vs. an* intruder* armed with a tennis ball, and the dog becoming useless, and Alex Scott in this thread, is talking about a handler sending the dog on a *decoy* and decoy throwing that ball. This to me is quite a change in actual topic from thread to thread, which is also why I am interested in seeing where Alex has been reading about this topic more and more, because even the referrence thread given does not state what he said he has been reading about more and more.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Guy Williams said:


> In the first video on the other thread the decoy drops the ball for the dog after the handler gives the click. This is a common way of starting young dogs to do a bark and hold as someone pointed out. The dog is in muzzle and I would guess that they are starting to get the dog used to working in muzzle ready for the later stages of training. If this was all they did then I agree they may have issues with the dog not viewing the helper as an adversary etc. They would also potentially have problems with the dog being distracted by balls later on.
> 
> I think this is the sort of training problem Alex picked up on from the other thread where Rick Scott suggests that sport dogs would be useless if the intruder had a tenis ball.
> 
> ...


Excellent points and assessments.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Look at some of the Randy Hare detection video to see how a dog can keep focus with tennis balls flying all over the place. The intensity for the "find" doesn't change with the tennis balls flying even when the dog is rewarded with.. a tennis ball. 
A dog that loves the bite, game or for real is going to get the job done regardless of distractions WITH the correct training.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> Look at some of the Randy Hare detection video to see how a dog can keep focus with tennis balls flying all over the place. The intensity for the "find" doesn't change with the tennis balls flying even when the dog is rewarded with.. a tennis ball.
> A dog that loves the bite, game or for real is going to get the job done regardless of distractions WITH the correct training.


Are dogs sniffing around for the helper in IPO? Why do we have to go to that? Why not show an IPO dog being trained like this that has good barking on trial day?


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I'll look and see if I can find some.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

This is a team on the club I belonged to. Whiskey was still a young dog when I left so this is the first time I've seen his I routine. 
I see no attempt to look away after five or ANY barks in the blind. 
This club trains with no physical correction. I was one of the first two to get our III there. 
It's the helper's job to make sure the dog doesn't look away, ball or no ball training.Can anyy dog look awya during the H&B, Absolutely! But that's not about ball or no ball. It's about the dog and the training! 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CAwt4SwPFb8


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> I'll look and see if I can find some.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Look at the post above your "really".


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> Look at the post above your "really".


 
Yeah Bob....REALLY!!!!

The bark and hold is edited in the middle. And the music is the only audio so I can't hear the dog bark. he might be spittin a few bars of Vanilla Ice every five barks for all you know.


Also don't expect for me to take your word for how the dog was trained without video proof or a signed and notarized statement from the handler stating how the dog was trained. Sorry about that but I have been lied to too many times about this stuff. Do you remember the woman on this forum insisted that she NEVER gave her dog corrections but had to admit she did after I found video proof? Or the guy that was flying in his guru from Belgium for a seminar that ended up crying in his Cheerios because his "all positive" guru used corrections just like I said he did? 'member that? Good times....

Bob I'll throw this one in your win column if you show me a video of your dog barking at a helper.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Christopher Smith said:


> Yeah Bob....REALLY!!!!
> 
> The bark and hold is edited in the middle. And the music is the only audio so I can't hear the dog bark. he might be spittin a few bars of Vanilla Ice every five barks for all you know.
> 
> ...



The only video of my dog is on a dvd of our trials. If I can figure out how to get some of that here I will.
Actually his first bark on anyone was with a ball as a SAR dog. He did a nice job in the transition.
I completely understand anyone not believing in what they see because of your comment. I can only say a handler physically correcting a dog at that club doesn't stay long. It just isn't done. I was there for 5-6 yrs.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> The only video of my dog is on a dvd of our trials. If I can figure out how to get some of that here I will.
> Actually his first bark on anyone was with a ball as a SAR dog. He did a nice job in the transition.
> I completely understand anyone not believing in what they see because of your comment. I can only say a handler physically correcting a dog at that club doesn't stay long. It just isn't done. I was there for 5-6 yrs.




Bob just because they don't correct AT THE CLUB doesn't mean that they don't train without correction. They might kick that dogs ass like his name is Toby other places.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Christopher Smith said:


> Bob just because they don't correct AT THE CLUB doesn't mean that they don't train without correction. They might kick that dogs ass like his name is Toby other places.



Always possible! Whiskey and his handler didn't have any dog training experience to even know how to give a correction. I honestly believe he followed the TD's advice to a T.
As you say though, it doensn't mean it doesn't happen with some.
I will only say that I never corrected with my GSD because I did that for many, many years and seriously wanted to know this "new" method. 
When I started OB classes in the 60s with a St. Bernard you couldn't start till the dog was 1 yr old cause they couldn't handle the training. 
I taught my first dog, a GSD/Collie with a book in 56 with a really heavy hand and got a great dog in spite of myself. 8-[ Still have the book though. :lol:


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