# Talk about a God complex.



## Christopher Jones

I think this guys job has gone to his head.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B8gSCyFe4Zg
Moral of the story, dont go shopping in the USA lol


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## Julie Ann Alvarez

This is crazy. You definately don't want to rubb this guy the wrong way. He's going to Guantanamo Bay (as my Hubby would say).

Geeze!


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## Nicole Stark

Christopher Jones said:


> I think this guys job has gone to his head.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B8gSCyFe4Zg
> Moral of the story, dont go shopping in the USA lol


Not that you were looking for contrary view points, but I disagree. 

Signed,

Mrs. God


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## John Wolf

I didn't hear the whole thing. POS computer, but the part I did I would side with the border guard. Little punk should've shut his mouth and just answered the damn questions. I'm glad they gave him a hard time.


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## Thomas Barriano

John Wolf said:


> I didn't hear the whole thing. POS computer, but the part I did I would side with the border guard. Little punk should've shut his mouth and just answered the damn questions. I'm glad they gave him a hard time.


John,

I totally agree. Answer the questions and you would have been on your way in no time. Give smart azz answers and you
wind up under arrest. I also question why this couple just happened to have a recorder ready, if they weren't looking for
a confrontation?


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## Howard Knauf

Bad interviewer. Once you begin answering the targets' questions you have lost control. It's not the guards' job to explain the way of the current world to this ass wipe. He may not agree with the process but, being a dickhead aint gonna make it change to suit him.

The guard should of asked him if he wanted a big steaming cup of shut the f**k up.:smile:


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## Edward Egan

I was kinda thinking the same thing about the recorder. Seems it gave him some misguided courage! Maybe he wanted to be on youtube or something, ha, ha. 

However, I think the boarder patrol took it a bit far, a bit fast. I mean if all the boarder guards had that short a temper, they would need a lot more jail space!

I also wonder how much this kinda thing ends up costing the US in tourist money?

I sure many people that here of these stories say the hell with it, I'm not crossing the boarder, too, much hassle.

Would love to know the outcome.


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## Christopher Jones

Thomas Barriano said:


> John,
> 
> I totally agree. Answer the questions and you would have been on your way in no time. Give smart azz answers and you
> wind up under arrest. I also question why this couple just happened to have a recorder ready, if they weren't looking for
> a confrontation?


I think the recording was released by someone in the Customs department, not by the people who were arrested.
The thing is Thomas, when you listen to how it was initally blown up it was when the guy just asked why he had to name the exact shops he was going to visit in a mall. Straight away the reaction from the original customs guy was basically "you want to ask why I want to know that? Now your screwed. Get out the car" Thats poor policing, poor training, poor everything. Every decent cop knows policing is about bringing the public along with you, not creating a them/you atmosphere.
And lets be totally honest here, with this guy it wasnt about terrorists or drug runners. If you or I were either of those two Thomas, the last thing we would be doing is making a scene or questioning the border guys. You would keep your mouth shut and try to not bring attention to yourself. If the border guys were not aware of this then their training is piss poor, and if they were it was then more about, as cartman said," respect my authority"
And since when is pulling your arm away when a police officer grabs for it called "assault"? Its called a "reflex" action.


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## Howard Knauf

I admit that those guys were severely lacking in the verbal Judo department. They are used to people quaking in their shoes and doing back flips for them. Some nimrod with a big mouth got the best of them.

Pulling away from the police is resisting w/o violence, not assault. 

I love how Mr. congeniality alluded to be in law enforcement but the guards didn't run with it. I woulda gave that dickhead every chance to say he was the police, then bust his ass for impersonating an LEO. Guys like that aren't as smart as they think they are. Give em enough rope........


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## Christopher Jones

Howard Knauf said:


> I admit that those guys were severely lacking in the verbal Judo department. They are used to people quaking in their shoes and doing back flips for them. Some nimrod with a big mouth got the best of them.
> 
> Pulling away from the police is resisting w/o violence, not assault.
> 
> I love how Mr. congeniality alluded to be in law enforcement but the guards didn't run with it. I woulda gave that dickhead every chance to say he was the police, then bust his ass for impersonating an LEO. Guys like that aren't as smart as they think they are. Give em enough rope........


Look I agree that the dude should have just gone with the flow, just to make his day a bit easier if nothing else, but it was esculated prematurely by the first border guy. If he had of just said "Look dude, we need to ask these questions because its our job, please just answer the questions and you will be on your way" then most likely they guy would have done so. That would have been such a better outcome all round.
I agree he was also a bit of a smart ass, but that in itself doesnt deserve a court date and possible criminal conviction. 

On the resisting arrest issue, I can understand if it was a continued pulling away, yeah it would be resisting, but if it was the first inital pullback reaction, would you still charge them with resist? I would assume that you would tell them in advance that you were going to arrest them prior to attempting to put cuffs on them?


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## Charles Guyer

Glad to see my tax dollars are keeping this country free and clear of smartass Canadians. Give 'em an inch and the next thing you know American kids are stealing car stereos to pawn for poutine, and bearclaws. Not on this guys watch. Bravo


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## Craig Wood

sorry sorry sorry


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## Jim Nash

Christopher Jones said:


> Look I agree that the dude should have just gone with the flow, just to make his day a bit easier if nothing else, but it was esculated prematurely by the first border guy. If he had of just said "Look dude, we need to ask these questions because its our job, please just answer the questions and you will be on your way" then most likely they guy would have done so. That would have been such a better outcome all round.
> I agree he was also a bit of a smart ass, but that in itself doesnt deserve a court date and possible criminal conviction.
> 
> On the resisting arrest issue, I can understand if it was a continued pulling away, yeah it would be resisting, but if it was the first inital pullback reaction, would you still charge them with resist? I would assume that you would tell them in advance that you were going to arrest them prior to attempting to put cuffs on them?



I couldn't listen to all of it because it's like every other smartass I've dealt with throughout the years . I have to disagree with you Chris , he was a smartasss to begin with , right from the first question and would have been a smartass if he would of had things explained to him . Explaining things to him would have just gave him more things to be a smartass about . Besides he knows exactly why he's being asked those questions . He just doesn't like being asked them .

Howard , please tell me you don't actually buy into that verbal judo BS . We ran those guys out of our city . It was actually pretty funny . Noone here bought in to that robotic BS , but noone argued with them , we just listened and that's it , so we could get it over with . They actually got mad because we weren't participtating . Hard to have any credibility when you get mad teaching a class on how NOT to get mad when dealing with people . WUSHAAA!!!!!!!


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## Guest

I took him to mean verbal skills in general. 

Somehow, Howard doesn't strike me as someone who flows effortlessly between the proprietary 5 and 8 step processes of Verbal Judo inc.

I got the same treatment going into Canada, by the way. Correction, I was asked a series of obviously standardized questions (much in the same way this started), and because I have a grasp of how administrations work, I answered them without being dick. They searched us, and sent us on our way.

We didn't even laugh when they said "aboot".


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## Guest

> If he had of just said "Look dude, we need to ask these questions because its our job, please just answer the questions and you will be on your way" then most likely they guy would have done so.


This guy in particular?

Most people, yes.

Not this one.

He already had his recorder going.

Jeez.

You think this guard maybe ran into one or two of these people before? I'm guessing he can pretty quickly spot an agenda by now.


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## Edward Egan

Christopher Jones said:


> I think the recording was released by someone in the Customs department, not by the people who were arrested.
> The thing is Thomas, when you listen to how it was initally blown up it was when the guy just asked why he had to name the exact shops he was going to visit in a mall. Straight away the reaction from the original customs guy was basically "you want to ask why I want to know that? Now your screwed. Get out the car" Thats poor policing, poor training, poor everything. Every decent cop knows policing is about bringing the public along with you, not creating a them/you atmosphere.
> And lets be totally honest here, with this guy it wasnt about terrorists or drug runners. If you or I were either of those two Thomas, the last thing we would be doing is making a scene or questioning the border guys. You would keep your mouth shut and try to not bring attention to yourself. If the border guys were not aware of this then their training is piss poor, and if they were it was then more about, as cartman said," respect my authority"
> And since when is pulling your arm away when a police officer grabs for it called "assault"? Its called a "reflex" action.


Being the undiscoveried detective that I am. I took note that the most promident voice thoughout the recording was Mr. Smartass. Everyone else was of in the distance. 8)


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## Christopher Jones

Edward Egan said:


> Being the undiscoveried detective that I am. I took note that the most promident voice thoughout the recording was Mr. Smartass. Everyone else was of in the distance. 8)


Look it could be, Im only going on reading that it was leaked audio. I would have though though that this guy would have been searched and the recording device found. Also I dont know why he would have been recording it anyway? Had the first dude not asked exactly what shop he was going to visit in the mall he most likely wouldnt have made a scene. 
I dont want to come across as cop bashing, as the reality is that the agenda for them to follow, and the laws they are told to enforce come from higher up than the beat cops. 
I just see goverments comming across now as our masters and we are plebs to do what we are told...or else. 
I mean I was reading the other day where cops tazered a 10 year old girl, who didnt have any weapons. They just made the decision that she was been unruley and she needed to be tazered back into line.
Then as crazy as that is the police who did it were backed up by their union and department.
How does it get to the point where people think its okay to tazer 10 year old girls? If a parent did it to their child to "control" them they would be charged with assault and would have their children taken from them.


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## Craig Wood

Craig Wood said:


> sorry sorry sorry


This post was someone else that forgot who's PC they were on. LOL

Having grown up with a father who was in WWII and Korea.....
I was raised with a hard and fast rule, respect everyone, or else.

Second going into a conversation with a recording device is not very respectful.

Third trying to set up a man with a difficult job to do is not respectful.

Fourth if you are Canadian and by definition UNARMED you should not poke with a verbal stick ANYONE armed with an automatic firearm.

Fifth The Border Guard needs to improve his skill set.


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## Christopher Jones

Hmmm...Im thinking, maybe Im reading this all wrong. Maybe its just that people from the USA dont like Canadians? Im guessing Canadians are to Americans what New Zealanders are to Australians? :lol::lol:


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## Craig Wood

Christopher Jones said:


> Hmmm...Im thinking, maybe Im reading this all wrong. Maybe its just that people from the USA dont like Canadians? Im guessing Canadians are to Americans what New Zealanders are to Australians? :lol::lol:


Any one who does not like Dudley Doright can respectfully go to hell. LOL


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## Don Turnipseed

I keep a voice activated recorder in the truck when I am hunting and it isn't there looking for a problem, it is to prevent a potential problem because I tend to have a big mouth when dealing with certain people .....and I am darn sure I am in the right. As long as the the officer is professional, I keep it in my pocket. When they cross the line of professionalism, I take it out of my shirt pocket and ask them to repeat that last statement. 
On the other hand, when crossing a border, it is not the time to run your mouth.


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## David Ruby

Craig Wood said:


> This post was someone else that forgot who's PC they were on. LOL
> 
> Having grown up with a father who was in WWII and Korea.....
> I was raised with a hard and fast rule, respect everyone, or else.
> 
> Second going into a conversation with a recording device is not very respectful.
> 
> Third trying to set up a man with a difficult job to do is not respectful.
> 
> Fourth if you are Canadian and by definition UNARMED you should not poke with a verbal stick ANYONE armed with an automatic firearm.
> 
> Fifth The Border Guard needs to improve his skill set.


I'd argue those are good points. Especially #4.

There were mistakes on both sides. The Border Guard did seem a bit in excess in what information he was asking, but it wasn't like he did anything wrong, just demanding information that was (from an armchair quarterback perspective) a bit strange. I guess I see it as a mistake that things were not as diplomatic or as smooth and professional as they should be, unless there was probable cause for some of the questioning/demands. But again, who knows.

On the other hand, the guy recording the conversation was being a bit of a smart ass. Luckily for him, there are no laws against being a smart ass. However it was stupid of him to do so since he could have just let the guy do his job and have answered the questions and he'd have been shopping in no time. The other thing is . . . Once the guy acted defensive, the boarder patrol officers are probably going to have to question, was that because he's trying to stand up for his rights, or because he's trying to hide something. If it's some guy and his wife, just heading to the mall and trying to throw his weight around and they leak the audio to the media, the BPO's come across less than great. At least at first. If it's somebody who's smuggling something or trying to cause harm, and that was just a smokescreen to get them to back off, well, isn't that by definition their job? To check for that stuff? So the guy really did a lot to paint a big bulls-eye on himself if nothing else.

Really, nobody comes across _great_ in this. The BGO probably should have just asked his questions, evaluated the situation, and not catered to the recorder-guy's questions and insolence. However, the more it went on, it was obvious the guy was being a bit belligerent and kind of brought a lot of that down on himself. On the BGO's side, I have to ask did they have enough to detain the guy & his wife, balanced with the fact he has a pretty serious job, he's human so maybe he just made a simple human mistake, and the fact if this had ended up actually being somebody that ended up doing something illegal and this was a ruse that they uncovered that saved lives we'd all be heralding the BGO as a hero. From the guy and his wife's standpoint, I would have to ask does he not have the right (if not a duty) to stand up for his personal rights if he's doing nothing wrong, or do those go out the door just because he's crossing the border into the U.S. (although, to what extent is it worth it to be difficult and act entitled just on principle if it might cause you to be detained and ultimately arrested?)? If you are being asked unreasonable questions and singled out with no just cause (if that's even the case, we really don't know that for sure) and feel you are being bullied by somebody who is doing so just because of their position of power, is it right to just go along with it and let the guy do his job even if you feel your rights are being violated, or do you stand up for yourself, and in that fashion, despite the fact the guy has a legitimate job to do?

I'm not making any judgments on anybody here. I'd have to know the whole story and the exact letters of the law before making any firm opinion on this. There is WAAAY too much we're not seeing, from body language, to the the Border Patrol's side of the story, to who knows what else. So I won't really judge either side given what we actually know from the recording.

Except, of course, you're trying to cross the border and the Border Patrol have fully automatic weapons and you've _maybe_ got a Swiss Army knife. I still think the logic behind shutting up and being respectful in that situation is impeccable.

-Cheers


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## Brian McConnell

My brother had wheel disk ripped from his car and damaged enough that it would not go back on they yelled at them to GET IN THE CAR AND LEAVE they only noticed the missing disk when they stopped for gas 1 hr later. These disks require a key to get off and if you use a tire iron you screw them.
Sorry wont be going stateside soon
Brian


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## Jennifer Coulter

Charles Guyer said:


> Glad to see my tax dollars are keeping this country free and clear of smartass Canadians. Give 'em an inch and the next thing you know American kids are stealing car stereos to pawn for poutine, and bearclaws. Not on this guys watch. Bravo


LOL.

I couldn't even listen to the whole thing....because it was so BORING.

The Canadian dude was dissapointing as he was not even a very good smart ass.


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## Howard Knauf

Steven Lepic said:


> I took him to mean verbal skills in general.
> 
> Somehow, Howard doesn't strike me as someone who flows effortlessly between the proprietary 5 and 8 step processes of Verbal Judo inc.
> ".


Yes....

And, No:mrgreen:


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## Howard Knauf

David Ruby said:


> There were mistakes on both sides. The Border Guard did seem a bit in excess in what information he was asking, but it wasn't like he did anything wrong, just demanding information that was (from an armchair quarterback perspective) a bit strange....
> 
> -Cheers


 This is why I made my earlier statement. Just because you don't understand something, being a dickhead isn't going to make it easier.

Cops do things for a reason. It takes months and years to become even moderately good at it. How is a cop going to explain to some asshole in 10 minutes what he has learned years to do? It can't be done, thats why I leave the explaining to my supervisors when numbnuts makes his complaint.

When developing interview skills there are some basic rules...then, each officer develops his own style. What is being asked is not so much the point....it's WHY it's being asked. There's a reason for it which I won't go into here, but be assured there is a very good reason.

IMO the guard should work on his people skills and learn to relax a bit more. Nothing's better than watching a dickhead lose control when his intention is for the officer to lose it. Gotta have thick skin in this game.


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## Don Turnipseed

Not defending the guy but maybe he didn't have a planned itinerary....he was just going shopping with his wife. Maybe the BPO should have asked her what stores she was going to. If he is like me he was already in a pissy mood because his wife drug him shopping in the first place. I know some of you can relate to that feeling. Just a bad day for all involved maybe.


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## Howard Knauf

I know ALOT of us can relate to that.

When I get dragged out to go shopping, I always end up in the sporting goods department by myself. Really pisses her off!:razz::razz:


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## Guest

> Second going into a conversation with a recording device is not very respectful.


It's also illegal (thought it may vary by state). 

You can't surreptiously audio record without video,_ without_ letting the recordee know. You don't have to ask permission, but you do have to let him know. That goes for civilian/civilian and civilian/cop, both ways.

I.e. a cop wouldn't be able to let his car camera keep running while he steps into a residence to speak with someone unrelated to a traffic stop; and if it happened accidentally there's no way it'd be allowed as evidence.

But why would a guy like this worry about such details? He knows _his_ rights...doesn't seem so concerned about anyone elses.


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## Howard Knauf

Steven Lepic said:


> But why would a guy like this worry about such details? He knows _his_ rights...doesn't seem so concerned about anyone elses.


 I believe it is a civil violation if done by civilians. If the police do it then it could be criminal AND civil. The officers may be able to civilly sue this guy, not sure. The fact that no names or images of the officers are shown would make a difficult case. No matter....cops should sue civilians just like they sue us.


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## Matthew Grubb

Steven Lepic said:


> It's also illegal (thought it may vary by state). .


 
In mine it would be a felony violation of wiretap laws. I for one LOVE our friends from the North Land.... my S&R pals from Durham let me sample their Rickards beer! =D>


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## Ben Colbert

Yeah guys. I totally agree with what you are saying about this stupid civilian wiretapping (video taping) the cops. People need to really know their place. Our police here in America are our defenders and are there to protect and serve. Taping them as they do their job for us civilians only gets in their way. People need to realize that you have to break a few constitutional eggs in order to keep a country safe. Taping cops like these jerkoffs did :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B45QPOfpZcE&feature=player_embedded#!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eZTbJH6BNaU&feature=fvw

only puts our police officers in danger and makes them afraid to perform their job.


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## Christopher Jones

Ben Colbert said:


> Yeah guys. I totally agree with what you are saying about this stupid civilian wiretapping (video taping) the cops. People need to really know their place. Our police here in America are our defenders and are there to protect and serve. Taping them as they do their job for us civilians only gets in their way. People need to realize that you have to break a few constitutional eggs in order to keep a country safe. Taping cops like these jerkoffs did :
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B45QPOfpZcE&feature=player_embedded#!
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eZTbJH6BNaU&feature=fvw
> 
> only puts our police officers in danger and makes them afraid to perform their job.


Maybe the dude was asking the BART cop why he was being arrested? I guess thats what happens to smart arses now. In all seriousness that was terrible what happened to that guy. A worse one for me was what happened to the dude in the train station in England, Jean Charles de Menezes, when they mistock him for a terrorist. The police lied about his actions, tried to cover up the video footage, altered their log books to cover up things, all of which then came out and yet no one even lost their job.


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## Charles Guyer

No such thing as an accidental discharge...only a negligent one.


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## Gerry Grimwood

Geez, all you people that think Canadians are assholes obviously haven't ever had to deal with American tourists..the only living thing more arrogant is a German tourist...if they're up here to hunt it's a tie :lol:


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## Jim Nash

Only times I don't like Canadians is on the ice . Otherwise most are good people . Cheeseheads are another story .


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## Thomas Barriano

Gerry Grimwood said:


> Geez, all you people that think Canadians are assholes obviously haven't ever had to deal with American tourists..the only living thing more arrogant is a German tourist...if they're up here to hunt it's a tie :lol:



Gerry,

Not Canadians, twenty somethings, Canadian or American


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## Gerry Grimwood

Thomas Barriano said:


> Gerry,
> 
> Not Canadians, twenty somethings, Canadian or American


Nope, older than that, I just listened to that recording again and I bet that guy was wearing a sweater draped over his shoulders with the sleeves tied neatly in front and probably smelt like starbucks.


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## David Frost

Matthew Grubb said:


> In mine it would be a felony violation of wiretap laws. I for one LOVE our friends from the North Land.... my S&R pals from Durham let me sample their Rickards beer! =D>


In my state; as long as one party in the coversation knows it's being taped, it's legal. 

If I'm carrying on a conversation with you, I can record it and don't have to tell you. I could not, for example, leave the recorder, or place a mic and record a conversation between you and someone else.


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## David Frost

charles guyer said:


> no such thing as an accidental discharge...only a negligent one.


amen


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## Howard Knauf

Ben Colbert said:


> Yeah guys. I totally agree with what you are saying about this stupid civilian wiretapping (video taping) the cops. .



How you draw the line from what this guy did , to police brutality is really amazing. If you watched the clip you'll see that this dickhead neither got shot, or had his head stomped despite his irritating, self serving, instigating, dickheadedness. Reminds me of the moron from "Dont Tase Me Bro!"


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## Charles Guyer

> How you draw the line from what this guy did , to police brutality is really amazing.


I think the line is unprofessionalism. It starts with escalating an avoidable situation with a jackass and ends with pointing your weapon at something you don't intend to kill. If you're payed to protect and serve you should have a handle on your emotions. Good cops are worth their weight in gold, bad ones can do way more harm than good. Not knocking the profession, it's as noble as they come.


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## Bob Scott

I happen to think the Canadians rock!
Two individuals who we can say are both wrong in their behaviour don't speak for either country.
Stupidity isn't a geographical behaviour! 
In Missouri it's also legal for only one person to be aware of a recording being made.


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## Christopher Jones

For me its real simple. Firstly no non-citizens of the USA have a god given right to enter the States. Secondly everyone has a god given right not to have to answer questions they dont want to.
So, the border guard says to the guy," you have two options. You can answer the questions asked to my satisfaction and you can enter the USA. Or you have the right to not answer my questions in which case you can turn your car around and head back into Canada. You have 10 seconds to decide which one your gonna do, or we will turn your car around for you." But instead the god creature did the whole, "right, get out of your car now" routine. Stupid :roll:


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## Bob Scott

We have the right to do or not do damn near anything......as long as we are willing to pay the penalty for doing it or not doing it.
To many young (and old) people today feel entitled, without consequence, to rights they haven't earned.
Rights aren't a given. They are earned!


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## Christopher Jones

Bob Scott said:


> Rights aren't a given. They are earned!


 Too true. And they are earned by standing up and fighting for them against the authority of the day. Just like your founding fathers did against the King, and just like Rosa Parks did not that long ago.


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## Bob Scott

"IF" you stand up for the right reasons. Just to be an Ahole isn't covered in that job description.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

The problem is how people are told that being a sheep and going along is the only way. The other problem is that I do not want what the border guard did to ever become ok, dickhead or not. Plenty of people have to eat shit at their jobs, not just cops, or border guards. I do not think that that border guard should have a job. 

Things like this start off small, and just get worse. How many of you actually think that the border guard is really keeping us safe ?? LOL Sure he is. Just like those guys working in the airport are gonna keep you safe with the huge lines, and so many of them just standing around half asleep.

There are how many books written about how this shit starts, and wow. I guess they just decided to follow the instructions in the books on how to do the big brother thing. Fun to see everyone roll over.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: "IF" you stand up for the right reasons. Just to be an Ahole isn't covered in that job description.

Who the **** are you to say one way or the other. Liberty is the souls right to breathe. If the laws are girded to tight, then people should rebel against authority.

You may joke of it, but in the 1700's when they said "Give me liberty, or give me death", I doubt they would pussy foot about the subject like so many are doing here.

You can quote your stupid laws all day long, but what is happening is wrong, and people should stand up to it however they can. What other forum to speak out do we have anymore besides the internet ??

They tried to do so at town hall meetings and the little **** decided that those people were not who they represent, as if they had a choice.


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## Nicole Stark

Maybe some see it that way. But I doubt the majority do. I've worked side by side with CBP for a fair bit now and have had my share of altercations with a few of the inspectors. Some even went the way we heard the exchange in recording go. I certainly would agree that in nearly every situation I was in the wrong, I could have handled things differently but I chose not to. Following along like livestock certainly would never cross my mind but when a persons emotion grows disproportionate to the situation clearly you're fighting a losing battle. You get pissed off and lose your cool like this guy did, what do you expect is going to or should happen? You figure they've got an obligation to sit that guy down like a child to "splain" the situation to him? Please. 

How often have you seen that line of reasoning pan out in your line of work?


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## Ben Colbert

Bob Scott said:


> Rights aren't a given. They are earned!



False. Rights are by definition not earned. You don't earn your right to free speech by being polite to a cop.You don't earn your right to not be subject to unreasonable search or self incrimination.

Cops work for us. We should have the right to video **** any time we want and cops should appreciate it because that means we are holding everyone to the same standard. The minute cops forget their place something needs to be done.


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## Christopher Jones

Ben Colbert said:


> We should have the right to video **** any time we want and cops should appreciate it .


Umm, Im not gonna try that one tho..........:twisted:


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## Ben Colbert

Woah...hell of a typo. Maybe a mod can fix that.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Scott 
Rights aren't a given. They are earned!

Holy ****, you don't actually believe this shit do you ??

Are you one of those idiots that think that driving is a privilege ?? What part of "free" don't you understand ?? This is the sheep mentality I am talking about. Stop that shit immediately.


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## Ian Forbes

Christopher Jones said:


> Hmmm...Im thinking, maybe Im reading this all wrong. Maybe its just that people from the USA dont like Canadians? Im guessing Canadians are to Americans what New Zealanders are to Australians? :lol::lol:


Keewees :-D 'Cun I huv sum fush n chups'.


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## Christopher Jones

Ian Forbes said:


> Keewees :-D 'Cun I huv sum fush n chups'.


We do love to tease them, unless they are Maori. Then we just tip our hats to them and scurry away lol.
Without doubt the Maori are the toughest SOB's on this planet.


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## David Ruby

Howard Knauf said:


> How you draw the line from what this guy did , to police brutality is really amazing. If you watched the clip you'll see that this dickhead neither got shot, or had his head stomped despite his irritating, self serving, instigating, dickheadedness. Reminds me of the moron from "Dont Tase Me Bro!"


Ben does have a point though, doesn't he? If the recorded conversation ended with the guy getting his ass handed to him for smarting off to a cop, we wouldn't be talking about it being disrespectful to record the conversation. Similarly, with the guy getting stomped by a cop (while handcuffed and on the ground), nobody is going to say "how dare those citizens record those cops doing their job." Quite the contrary.

Even though the guy did himself no favors, and the BPO guys were more-or-less doing their jobs, the reality is those laws aren't there to get mall-shopping Canadians off the streets. Granted, I'm not going to crucify anybody based on a one-sided audio leak, but to be fair you have to look at both sides of things.

-Cheers


----------



## susan tuck

Back in the 80s my husband and I flew to Texas for a wedding. While we were there we drove down to Mexico. When we re-entered the USA, the US border guard asked my DH where we were going. My hubby said Los Angeles accidently instead of the city in Texas. The guard automatically had us pull over, our car was searched and we were searched and interviewed. The officers were deadly serious, and very professional. I was scared without even having a reason to be scared. We did exactly as we were told, we did not become self righteous and demand to know why we were being searched. We made sure to cooperate 100%. We were released without incident. Again, this was prior to 9/11.

I do a little bit of traveling in foreign countries. If I were ever to be detained, I would do my very best not to piss off the detaining officers. The last thing I would do is become argumentative and try to tell the officer what his job was, or what my rights were, in his country. 

There is no doubt the guy was taping this himself and doing everything he could to push the buttons of the officers. He was argumentative and mouthing off. He was patronizing, rude and very disrespectful. I think the guy was doing everything he could to escalate the situation, and he got what he asked for. After listening to the video I don't doubt the guy made some time of movement on purpose that the officers interpreted as physical violence, and why the hell would they give this asshole the benefit of the doubt? It's really a shame, what a waste of time for the officers, what an asshole this guy was.


----------



## David Ruby

Bob Scott said:


> Rights aren't a given. They are earned!


I'd argue they have been earned by people who fought and gave their rights for them. Rights SHOULD be a given. That's what makes them rights. Sorry, but if we make basic rights selective or force people to earn them (not sure how that would work), this country and everything it was founded on is going to go to shit real fast.



Howard Knauf said:


> This is why I made my earlier statement. Just because you don't understand something, being a dickhead isn't going to make it easier.


True, and I was at least in part agreeing with your earlier statement.



Howard Knauf said:


> Cops do things for a reason. It takes months and years to become even moderately good at it. How is a cop going to explain to some asshole in 10 minutes what he has learned years to do? It can't be done, thats why I leave the explaining to my supervisors when numbnuts makes his complaint.


Alright, but I've known and met a few cops over the years. There are some that explain things just fine. I've met cops that were decent human beings that could diffuse a situation and give a rudimentary explanation to people just fine, and I've met some that were pricks. Sorry, I don't buy the blanket statement that we should just totally accept everything or anything a cop, or politician, or ANYBODY tells us based solely on their position. That is the antithesis of what America was founded on. There are good cops and bad cops. I'm not trying to spark a revolution, but I'm also not saying we should roll over if we see a legitimate rights violation.

I have a lot of respect for cops, but I do not buy the "I can't explain this to you because it took me years to learn this stuff" as an answer. Just give a blanket-yet-relevant reason (e.g. this is standard line of questions to gauge intent, please just answer the questions) and move on. I'm not asking for a thesis statement on your last five years of training and the theory behind why you're doing it like so, just saying a one-or-two sentence summary on why the guy was getting the questions (to determine your intent and verify your purpose) and ignore his jabs to get a reaction out of the BPO, or deflect them unless the guy does something legitimately illegal.



Howard Knauf said:


> I admit that those guys were severely lacking in the verbal Judo department. They are used to people quaking in their shoes and doing back flips for them. Some nimrod with a big mouth got the best of them.
> 
> Pulling away from the police is resisting w/o violence, not assault.
> 
> I love how Mr. congeniality alluded to be in law enforcement but the guards didn't run with it. I woulda gave that dickhead every chance to say he was the police, then bust his ass for impersonating an LEO. Guys like that aren't as smart as they think they are. Give em enough rope........


If the guy does something stupid like say he's a cop to try and get out of the situation a/o push his weight around, sure. However, I would hope you wouldn't bait the guy. Police are there to protect and serve, no? Not that you should have to take crap from wannabe tough guys, but why not just diffuse the situation instead of waiting for the guy to make some stupid comment when he's, for whatever reason, irritated and maybe frustrated and then throw the book at him for it? The guy didn't hold up a 7-11, he got belligerent after being detained at least in part because he didn't know what specific stores he was going to visit in an uber-huge mall.

This is not cop bashing. I'm friends with at least three cops, and have the utmost respect for the good ones. I also would have been cooler with the BPOs. I have also encountered some (directly and through my family) that were flat-out wrong, and in at least one case the judge agreed it was a BS case (my dad got a ticket revoked that was given to him because he pulled over and tried to ask the cop for directions, no exaggeration). However, being a prick is not against the law, nor is being stupid. It's annoying, and the guy recording the affair was not by any stretch totally in the right. However, being stupid, belligerent, agitated, having a bad day, or just otherwise coming across as defensive are not inherently against the law.

Just as a friendly debate, at the very least both sides could have, and _should _have, done things differently. If both guys had been cooler about stuff, that would have probably been a <5 minute conversation with maybe a look through their stuff. That didn't happen, and both sides are at least partially to blame. However, despite being stupid given the situation, I fail to see how the guy standing up for himself in the face of some pretty ridiculous line of questions (even if he should have just answered to the best of his ability, they were pretty ludicrous) is honestly worthy of being detained and arrested for.

-Cheers


----------



## Jim Nash

David stated : 

" Alright, but I've known and met a few cops over the years. There are some that explain things just fine. I've met cops that were decent human beings that could diffuse a situation and give a rudimentary explanation to people just fine, and I've met some that were pricks. Sorry, I don't buy the blanket statement that we should just totally accept everything or anything a cop, or politician, or ANYBODY tells us based solely on their position. That is the antithesis of what America was founded on. There are good cops and bad cops. I'm not trying to spark a revolution, but I'm also not saying we should roll over if we see a legitimate rights violation.

I have a lot of respect for cops, but I do not buy the "I can't explain this to you because it took me years to learn this stuff" as an answer. Just give a blanket-yet-relevant reason (e.g. this is standard line of questions to gauge intent, please just answer the questions) and move on. I'm not asking for a thesis statement on your last five years of training and the theory behind why you're doing it like so, just saying a one-or-two sentence summary on why the guy was getting the questions (to determine your intent and verify your purpose) and ignore his jabs to get a reaction out of the BPO, or deflect them unless the guy does something legitimately illegal. "




David I know you directed this to Howard but I've got to tell you it's not that simple . First off I don't expect nor want people to just except what we say . But there is a better way of handling it and actually getting something done if the cop actually did something , then being an ass . 

I've been able to defuse many situations buy explaining something but there are plenty of other times I haven't been . There are many people that just don't want to hear what I have to say . The more I try the more ammunition I give them to be a jerkoff . They will argue you in circles . 

I've been a Police Officer for 19 years and there isn't ONE Police Officer I've known that I haven't seen get pissed off and flustered by an individual they have tried to deal with . 

Also there are times we don't have time to explain things . A hint to some would be when we have our guns drawn and are yelling things . Expecting an explanation is not safe nor reasonable . When things calm down maybe but at the moment it's going down just comply . If afterwards you think the officer overreacted file a complaint . But being a dickhead during the incident may only get a person arrested and that behavior will taint any complaint they may have legitimitly had , later .

It should be an expectation that Police Officers should be able to handle taking shit better then others . But to what degree ? 

The standards most of you are holding us to have not worked out so well throughout the years . Why ? Because it's a 2 way street and we are human not robots . Expecting Officers to take shit over and over again is unrealistic . The solution comes from working together from both sides . Civilians and Police . 

I was Deputy Sheriff in Minneapolis my first 3 years on the job . In Minnesota many view the Minneapolis Police force as a hostile one and from my viewpoint it is and the St Paul police force as a more respectful on .

I can tell you when I started out I was respectful and tried to give everyone a chance , explain things when possible and try to leave an incident the folks I was trying to "help" happy with what I did and with me . 

In Minneapolis it's vertually impossible . In most of the areas you find yourself working in from day to day (mostly the highcrime areas) I was met with hostility and folks that were not going to work with me in anyway regardless how nice I was . I was a much different Officer working there and tolerated much less shit then I am now working in St Paul .

I still meet plenty of jerks trying and sometimes successfully pushing my buttons but I at least have time to decompress at times since there is more time in betwen encountering my next ass*** . I don't know how all the hostility started in Minneapolis , if the Police started it or the citizens did , but regardless of who did expcting just the Officers to change how they relate to people isn't working and can tell you first hand many of the citizens aren't giving Officers a chance when they try anyways . I was that cop to begin with didn't work . There should be an expectation that citizens and police BOTH don't act like ***holes . 

I think what Howard was trying to say in part is you can't truely know what it's like trying to calm a someone who is being uncooperative until you have actually don't it . Too much stuff , to many lessons learned by an Officer through the years to explain . 

I agree with you there are good cops and bad cops and cops that can do a better job then others . 

But there is one thing I am sure of , there is NOT ONE person out there that can come into our job and calm and control everyone and they certainly can't live up to what is expected of us . NOT ONE .


----------



## Kadi Thingvall

Considering the guy went into the situation with the recorder running, I think he was looking for something. Not real sure what, be I do think he was hoping to trigger an "event", otherwise have the recorder running?



David Ruby said:


> Sorry, I don't buy the blanket statement that we should just totally accept everything or anything a cop, or politician, or ANYBODY tells us based solely on their position.


I have had many friends over the years who were/are cops, and quite a few of them have told me they WILL say whatever they have to, including lying, to get someone to admit to a crime, or give them a lead on something, allow a search of their vehicle/home they don't have to, or in some other way screw up and give up their rights. So I will definitely NOT believe what I'm being told in terms of what an officer can do, and what I am required to do, when dealing with the police. 

And unfortunately that leads to situations like this (NOTE I said like this, I'm still not convinced this guy wasn't trying to cause a problem for his recorder to record), where people who aren't doing anything wrong aren't sure that the officer actually has the right to do what he/she is doing, and therefore aren't 100% cooperative.


----------



## David Ruby

Hey Jim,



Jim Nash said:


> David I know you directed this to Howard but I've got to tell you it's not that simple . First off I don't expect nor want people to just except what we say . But there is a better way of handling it and actually getting something done if the cop actually did something , then being an ass .
> 
> I've been able to defuse many situations buy explaining something but there are plenty of other times I haven't been . There are many people that just don't want to hear what I have to say . The more I try the more ammunition I give them to be a jerkoff . They will argue you in circles .


I'd believe that.



> I've been a Police Officer for 19 years and there isn't ONE Police Officer I've known that I haven't seen get pissed off and flustered by an individual they have tried to deal with .


Yeah, that's part of being human. I can't fault somebody for that, and maybe the BPO and the guy being a jerkoff in the recording were both having bad days.



> Also there are times we don't have time to explain things . A hint to some would be when we have our guns drawn and are yelling things . Expecting an explanation is not safe nor reasonable . When things calm down maybe but at the moment it's going down just comply . If afterwards you think the officer overreacted file a complaint . But being a dickhead during the incident may only get a person arrested and that behavior will taint any complaint they may have legitimitly had , later .


It may not seem like it, but I am aware there are times when you can't explain things. When you're with guns drawn or doing an arrest or running a SWAT mission or something, sure. I was more or less referring to the recording originally posted. Presuming there weren't guns drawn, or the BPO wasn't suspicious of the couple for reasons otherwise not evident.

I would also like to point out, that's part of why I reserve judgment. For all we know, the BPO was detaining them for some reason and annoyed because the guy was being a prick when he knew something we don't (like maybe there were K9's that smelled something and he was sure they were smuggling in drugs or something).



> It should be an expectation that Police Officers should be able to handle taking shit better then others . But to what degree ?


Valid point. All I would say is that the situation should have been handled better, however, yes we ALL have bad days and make mistakes, and having somebody be belligerent about it is definitely NOT going to help.



> The standards most of you are holding us to have not worked out so well throughout the years . Why ? Because it's a 2 way street and we are human not robots . Expecting Officers to take shit over and over again is unrealistic . The solution comes from working together from both sides . Civilians and Police .
> 
> I was Deputy Sheriff in Minneapolis my first 3 years on the job . In Minnesota many view the Minneapolis Police force as a hostile one and from my viewpoint it is and the St Paul police force as a more respectful on [snip]
> 
> I think what Howard was trying to say in part is you can't truely know what it's like trying to calm a someone who is being uncooperative until you have actually don't it . Too much stuff , to many lessons learned by an Officer through the years to explain .
> 
> I agree with you there are good cops and bad cops and cops that can do a better job then others .
> 
> But there is one thing I am sure of , there is NOT ONE person out there that can come into our job and calm and control everyone and they certainly can't live up to what is expected of us . NOT ONE .


I actually believe all of that. I just believe the specific example cited in the OP could have been diffused better by a cop that was more diplomatic, or was having a great day, or maybe just got lucky and identified with the guy or asked about their trip in a different way. I CAN appreciate the unrealistic demands of cops though, I truly can, and I've heard things from their perspective enough to usually find myself seeing both sides of any given conflict I've been privy to hearing about (unless it's clear cut like a murder or doped up guy being a danger). Still (with the obvious benefit of not actually having to deal with the situation and getting it after the fact), to me from the outside looking in it's easy to see where and how things were likely escalated from both sides of the situation and what set the other side off. Still, realizing that HAS to be a high-stress job and that they likely take the threat of terrorists seriously and the probability that this wasn't the first guy who came across as a prick to the BPO, I appreciate it's a hard job and being human maybe a meltdown is inevitable given the right person in the right situation. However, when people act like there is no way anybody should see fault with the situation, taken from as an individual case, I can see where people might see fault in how it was handled and what actually happened (the guy & his wife were detained) for what the actual crime/wrongdoing was (belligerently demanding answers to questions, and resisting arrest largely as a result of pushing one cop's buttons). All I can say is, given what limited scope of information we're given, it probably could have been handled smoother.

-Cheers


----------



## Howard Knauf

Jim....Thank you for your lengthy post. As usual, you are 100% right.

David, I don't know if you've done our job but, being a dickhead like this guy IS a ploy used by criminals to get officers to feel uncomfortable and throw them off their game. Many unseasoned cops will fold from a guy like this because they are A) intimidated, or B) unsure of the law themselves thus are afraid of getting into trouble. Many cops have poor verbal skills and are easily frustrated which emboldens a loudmouthed dickhead.

When I deal with dickheads like this on the street I actually start being more aware of my surroundings. His attitude could be (and has been IME) a ploy to distract from what's really going on. That distraction can get you killed. I can't tell you how many times I've seen rookies want to just get away from assholes like this and abandon what they were there to do. We actually have in-service training on how to deal with the dickhead on traffic stops. 

I've dealt with certain individuals so many times that I can tell if they're holding dope, clean , or are covering their pals just by the way they deal with me. 

This dickhead in the video clearly made it a point to be confrontational. The guard did somewhat keep to a higher standard because he didn't knock the F***er out like a regular citizen probably would. Through experience the guard should get better...hopefully.

And as far as coaxing the dickhead into falsely claiming to be a police officer...C'mon! He has the right to say that he isn't the police, just as he does to lie and say he is. He alluded to be law enforcement to try and intimidate the guard, period. So,...you wanna play the game? Lets Play! I have no obligation to protect this lying asshole from himself. If I ask simple questions to confirm what he already said about being a LEO, how is that not protecting him like you say? If he's going to tell the POLICE he's a cop, maybe he's out there raping women under the same disguise. A stretch< I know, but it happens. And, if you want to play the game...you better know the rules.


----------



## Jim Nash

David Ruby said:


> Hey Jim,
> 
> 
> 
> I'd believe that.
> 
> Yeah, that's part of being human. I can't fault somebody for that, and maybe the BPO and the guy being a jerkoff in the recording were both having bad days.
> 
> It may not seem like it, but I am aware there are times when you can't explain things. When you're with guns drawn or doing an arrest or running a SWAT mission or something, sure. I was more or less referring to the recording originally posted. Presuming there weren't guns drawn, or the BPO wasn't suspicious of the couple for reasons otherwise not evident.
> 
> I would also like to point out, that's part of why I reserve judgment. For all we know, the BPO was detaining them for some reason and annoyed because the guy was being a prick when he knew something we don't (like maybe there were K9's that smelled something and he was sure they were smuggling in drugs or something).
> 
> Valid point. All I would say is that the situation should have been handled better, however, yes we ALL have bad days and make mistakes, and having somebody be belligerent about it is definitely NOT going to help.
> 
> I actually believe all of that. I just believe the specific example cited in the OP could have been diffused better by a cop that was more diplomatic, or was having a great day, or maybe just got lucky and identified with the guy or asked about their trip in a different way. I CAN appreciate the unrealistic demands of cops though, I truly can, and I've heard things from their perspective enough to usually find myself seeing both sides of any given conflict I've been privy to hearing about (unless it's clear cut like a murder or doped up guy being a danger). Still (with the obvious benefit of not actually having to deal with the situation and getting it after the fact), to me from the outside looking in it's easy to see where and how things were likely escalated from both sides of the situation and what set the other side off. Still, realizing that HAS to be a high-stress job and that they likely take the threat of terrorists seriously and the probability that this wasn't the first guy who came across as a prick to the BPO, I appreciate it's a hard job and being human maybe a meltdown is inevitable given the right person in the right situation. However, when people act like there is no way anybody should see fault with the situation, taken from as an individual case, I can see where people might see fault in how it was handled and what actually happened (the guy & his wife were detained) for what the actual crime/wrongdoing was (belligerently demanding answers to questions, and resisting arrest largely as a result of pushing one cop's buttons). All I can say is, given what limited scope of information we're given, it probably could have been handled smoother.
> 
> -Cheers


Well here's the thing . Unlike just about everyone in this discussion , I think the way the BPO handled himself was a fairly representive way most would handle that situation . JMO . 

I don't think it was that bad a job . At first I thought the question about exactly what shops they were going to was ridiculous , because who actually plans out to that degree . Then I thought about how much an answer to that question would tell me and I don't think it's such a bad question . Believe it or not sometimes asking a dumb question uncovers alot of things . 

I've been known to show and ask suspects when I find narcotics on them or in their vehicles , in a very confused manner , as if I really don't know . " What is this ? " . Before they know it they are responding just to show me I'm an idiot " It' Meth man ! " . Works even better when I ask another cop in his presence and the dirtbag volunteers on his own . Sometimes helps in court later .


----------



## Jim Nash

Howard Knauf said:


> Jim....Thank you for your lengthy post. As usual, you are 100% right.
> 
> David, I don't know if you've done our job but, being a dickhead like this guy IS a ploy used by criminals to get officers to feel uncomfortable and throw them off their game. Many unseasoned cops will fold from a guy like this because they are A) intimidated, or B) unsure of the law themselves thus are afraid of getting into trouble. Many cops have poor verbal skills and are easily frustrated which emboldens a loudmouthed dickhead.
> 
> When I deal with dickheads like this on the street I actually start being more aware of my surroundings. His attitude could be (and has been IME) a ploy to distract from what's really going on. That distraction can get you killed. I can't tell you how many times I've seen rookies want to just get away from assholes like this and abandon what they were there to do. We actually have in-service training on how to deal with the dickhead on traffic stops.
> 
> I've dealt with certain individuals so many times that I can tell if they're holding dope, clean , or are covering their pals just by the way they deal with me.
> 
> This dickhead in the video clearly made it a point to be confrontational. The guard did somewhat keep to a higher standard because he didn't knock the F***er out like a regular citizen probably would. Through experience the guard should get better...hopefully.
> 
> And as far as coaxing the dickhead into falsely claiming to be a police officer...C'mon! He has the right to say that he isn't the police, just as he does to lie and say he is. He alluded to be law enforcement to try and intimidate the guard, period. So,...you wanna play the game? Lets Play! I have no obligation to protect this lying asshole from himself. If I ask simple questions to confirm what he already said about being a LEO, how is that not protecting him like you say? If he's going to te3ll the POLICE he's a cop, maybe he's out there raping women under the same disguise. A stretch< I know, but it happens.


Good point Howard .

That's certainly be one of the things I'd be thinking . " Why's he acting this way ? " , " Is he just an ass or his he up to something ? " .


----------



## Howard Knauf

Jim Nash said:


> I don't think it was that bad a job . At first I thought the question about exactly what shops they were going to was ridiculous , because who actually plans out to that degree . Then I thought about how much an answer to that question would tell me and I don't think it's such a bad question . Believe it or not sometimes asking a dumb question uncovers alot of things .
> .


 There's yall's explanation for dumb questions. A bit abbreviated but a fine example. Plenty of other reasons as well.


----------



## Howard Knauf

Jim Nash said:


> Good point Howard .
> 
> That's certainly be one of the things I'd be thinking . " Why's he acting this way ? " , " Is he just an ass or his he up to something ? " .


Lo and behold!!! This dickhead was up to something. Imagine that!!! Our suspicions are correct.

It may not have been the crime of the century but, had he been dealing with a more savvy guard he may well have been jailed for his little youtube debut efforts of dickhead101.

I don't know if this guy went in there to intentionally get grabbed...or just took the opportunity afforded to him to turn from Jekyl to dickhead...but the rest is youtube history.


----------



## David Ruby

Jim Nash said:


> I don't think it was that bad a job . At first I thought the question about exactly what shops they were going to was ridiculous , because who actually plans out to that degree . Then I thought about how much an answer to that question would tell me and I don't think it's such a bad question . Believe it or not sometimes asking a dumb question uncovers alot of things .


Interesting. I would wonder, would you ask dumb questions like that as a matter-of-course, or just when you had suspicion (just cause, or just a gut reaction)? Not sure if there is any protocol for that. My problem with questions like that are that, even if you're totally innocent, there is really no right answer because NOBODY is going to have a right answer. ~99% of people are going to say, "beats me, we're just going shopping." Recorder guy just happened to be exceptionally good at being a jerk about it. I can kind of understand if that is a filter question, but it seems lacking as a lead-in question since it makes everybody look like a possible crook with a vapid cover story.



> I've been known to show and ask suspects when I find narcotics on them or in their vehicles , in a very confused manner , as if I really don't know . " What is this ? " . Before they know it they are responding just to show me I'm an idiot " It' Meth man ! " . Works even better when I ask another cop in his presence and the dirtbag volunteers on his own . Sometimes helps in court later .


In that case though, you're already found evidence. Just musing, however we don't know one way or the other if there was something that tipped the BPOs off or not.



Howard Knauf said:


> David, I don't know if you've done our job but, being a dickhead like this guy IS a ploy used by criminals to get officers to feel uncomfortable and throw them off their game. Many unseasoned cops will fold from a guy like this because they are A) intimidated, or B) unsure of the law themselves thus are afraid of getting into trouble. Many cops have poor verbal skills and are easily frustrated which emboldens a loudmouthed dickhead.


I haven't done your job, but I can definitely see your point.



> When I deal with dickheads like this on the street I actually start being more aware of my surroundings. His attitude could be (and has been IME) a ploy to distract from what's really going on. That distraction can get you killed. I can't tell you how many times I've seen rookies want to just get away from assholes like this and abandon what they were there to do. We actually have in-service training on how to deal with the dickhead on traffic stops.
> 
> I've dealt with certain individuals so many times that I can tell if they're holding dope, clean , or are covering their pals just by the way they deal with me.
> 
> This dickhead in the video clearly made it a point to be confrontational. The guard did somewhat keep to a higher standard because he didn't knock the F***er out like a regular citizen probably would. Through experience the guard should get better...hopefully.
> 
> 
> 
> That is kind of why I am trying to avoid being too harsh on the guy. We ARE only seeing part of the story and maybe he's throwing off massive bad-guy vibes. Heck, maybe he had weed and meth in his car and was part of a drug bust. Or maybe he was just flabbergasted because he was just a guy going shopping with his wife. Who knows?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And as far as coaxing the dickhead into falsely claiming to be a police officer...C'mon! He has the right to say that he isn't the police, just as he does to lie and say he is. He alluded to be law enforcement to try and intimidate the guard, period. So,...you wanna play the game? Lets Play! I have no obligation to protect this lying asshole from himself. If I ask simple questions to confirm what he already said about being a LEO, how is that not protecting him like you say? If he's going to tell the POLICE he's a cop, maybe he's out there raping women under the same disguise. A stretch< I know, but it happens. And, if you want to play the game...you better know the rules.
> 
> 
> 
> This is probably just me coming from the civilian perspective. If you ask simple questions, sure. However, he said he knew cops or knew about cops proceedings and the law (paraphrasing), not that he was an LEO. I think there's a difference between asking him simple questions to see if he goes down that route and then nailing him if he legitimately tries to impersonate the cop, and baiting somebody to see if you can lure them into saying they're a cop. It's a fine line, but I could see how that could be done in a less than honest manner.
> 
> -Cheers
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


----------



## David Ruby

Howard Knauf said:


> Lo and behold!!! This dickhead was up to something. Imagine that!!! Our suspicions are correct.


Interesting. Got a link? I'm just curious about this.

One thing this does sort of bring up is, when and where and to what extent do we defend our rights? I think most of us project to some degree, and wonder the "what if that were me" scenario. Granted, I'm not going to pull a John Hancock and start spitting in the fact of authority when I'm being questioned by Border Patrol. Still, what this DOES kind of bring up is, if hypothetically we're innocent, believe our rights ARE getting infringed upon, we're NOT being jerks about it, but feel it's our right (and obligation?) to stand up for our rights, really, how SHOULD we go about doing so?

As a pure conversation point, I think that's worth asking, even if just to oneself. While not relevant to the Canadian Recorder Guy and his situation, and not the same as being a prick that happens to be smuggling drugs or trying to get cops to back off because I'm a crook, it IS something that to varying degrees has been a part of the history, culture, and pride of Americans since this country's inception on through various important movements.

I doubt there is one right answer, but it's interesting to me at least.

-Cheers


----------



## Jim Nash

David asked ; 

" Interesting. I would wonder, would you ask dumb questions like that as a matter-of-course, or just when you had suspicion (just cause, or just a gut reaction)? Not sure if there is any protocol for that. My problem with questions like that are that, even if you're totally innocent, there is really no right answer because NOBODY is going to have a right answer. ~99% of people are going to say, "beats me, we're just going shopping." Recorder guy just happened to be exceptionally good at being a jerk about it. I can kind of understand if that is a filter question, but it seems lacking as a lead-in question since it makes everybody look like a possible crook with a vapid cover story. "

No not as a matter of course in my job as a city Police Officer . But as a BPO , I'm not sure but it may be for me . I agree 99% will probably say: " beats me, we're just going shopping." and there is no right answer . Also the answer depending on what it is can be weighed alone or in the context or along with other questions answered by him and his wife . Depends . 

Just giving you an example of how a "stupid" question may be used . Most outside of Law Enforcement wouldn't know why I asked such a thing and merely think ; " Is he really that dumb , is this his first narcotics arrest ? " , " What's he been doing his entire career , writting parking tickets ? ' .

I too don't know anything about this case other then hearing this audio . But it's my opinion this guy's only agenda was being a jerkoff and was dealt with accordingly for it . I'm guessing the tape was made by the BPO's and leaked by the defense attorney once the evidence was given to him/her during the normal court precedings . But just a guess on my part though .


----------



## Jim Nash

David Ruby said:


> Interesting. Got a link? I'm just curious about this.
> 
> One thing this does sort of bring up is, when and where and to what extent do we defend our rights? I think most of us project to some degree, and wonder the "what if that were me" scenario. Granted, I'm not going to pull a John Hancock and start spitting in the fact of authority when I'm being questioned by Border Patrol. Still, what this DOES kind of bring up is, if hypothetically we're innocent, believe our rights ARE getting infringed upon, we're NOT being jerks about it, but feel it's our right (and obligation?) to stand up for our rights, really, how SHOULD we go about doing so?
> 
> As a pure conversation point, I think that's worth asking, even if just to oneself. While not relevant to the Canadian Recorder Guy and his situation, and not the same as being a prick that happens to be smuggling drugs or trying to get cops to back off because I'm a crook, it IS something that to varying degrees has been a part of the history, culture, and pride of Americans since this country's inception on through various important movements.
> 
> I doubt there is one right answer, but it's interesting to me at least.
> 
> -Cheers


Well let's just think about where your chances of changing things (if you were wronged) are greatest . Are they during the incident with the "bad cop " or after through other venues (Internal Affairs complaint , through civil court or through legistlators or the like in changing laws so it doesn't happen again) .


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## Ben Colbert

Jim,

When you have cops threatening those people videotaping a rights violation, when cops on this very board think that someone should be arrested for violating wire tapping laws for taping a cop, how do you prove a violation of your rights?


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## Ben Colbert

Jim Nash said:


> The standards most of you are holding us to have not worked out so well throughout the years . Why ? Because it's a 2 way street and we are human not robots .


Have you ever worked in retail? Many moons ago I sold cell phones. People came to me when there phones didn't work, they couldn't pay their bill etc. Sometimes I had a good relationship with customers. Sometimes it was extremely adversarial.

If I treated people the way that BPO treated that customer, the way I've been treated myself, the way I've seen people treated I would have been fired on the spot.

Police provide a customer service. Why can't we at least hold them to the same standard as cell phone sales people?


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## David Ruby

Jim Nash said:


> Well let's just think about where your chances of changing things (if you were wronged) are greatest . Are they during the incident with the "bad cop " or after through other venues (Internal Affairs complaint , through civil court or through legistlators or the like in changing laws so it doesn't happen again) .


Well, that probably depends. Which makes more of an impact;










Or:










Or how about this:










Or this:









I'm not sure there is one right answer. There is a quote by Samuel Adams: "_It does not take a majority to prevail... but rather an irate, tireless minority, keen on setting brushfires of freedom in the minds of men_." The point is, human history has rewarded minorities for doing things that outrage people or doing things that move us. Legislation is great, but boring. One inflammatory action (good or bad) can spark a revolution.

Again, Canada Recorder Guy doesn't count. However, if you can catch "bad cop" doing something, then stand up for your rights within the full rights of the law, and record your rights being stepped on (perceived or real) and get evidence of that out there, that's worth a lot of votes. I do believe, to some extent, that is the mentality. Perhaps, based on historical evidence, rightfully so to a degree. Anyway, as a bit of a history nerd, there is a certain fascination because as much as we're a democratic nation, that is not generally the way great change has been made. Not saying I necessarily agree with it, or always like it, but I do see some precedent for it.

This is only tangentially related to the thread, however if the guy in the recording had legitimately done nothing wrong except stand up for his rights, and if the BPO had broken the law a/o infringed on his rights, and there was a huge deal made about it, it would likely have made (or at least been more likely to make) a much bigger difference than if it had went to court. There are exceptions (obviously if it ended up going to the Supreme Court and making huge change in BP proceedings that would be one), but I would argue that people do tend to rise to action based on single acts that ignite something in them.

-Cheers


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## David Ruby

Ben Colbert said:


> Have you ever worked in retail? Many moons ago I sold cell phones. People came to me when there phones didn't work, they couldn't pay their bill etc. Sometimes I had a good relationship with customers. Sometimes it was extremely adversarial.
> 
> If I treated people the way that BPO treated that customer, the way I've been treated myself, the way I've seen people treated I would have been fired on the spot.
> 
> Police provide a customer service. Why can't we at least hold them to the same standard as cell phone sales people?


In their defense, the Police DO probably get shot at more than the average cell phone salesman. I worked retail for years, but my life wasn't on the line every time I punched in either.

-Cheers


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## Howard Knauf

David Ruby said:


> In their defense, the Police DO probably get shot at more than the average cell phone salesman. I worked retail for years, but my life wasn't on the line every time I punched in either.
> 
> -Cheers


Thank you.

As a salesman you can always tell an asshole to go F**k himself and give him the finger. Chances are if you and your boss are friends, and you apologize to the boss you'll be fine. Even if you get fired, getting another sales job is no biggie. Believe it or not, being a cop is a career...get fired from that and you're pretty much done. So yea, it's tough when some dickhead knows this and baits a cop to hopefully get his 15 minutes.


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## Jim Nash

David Ruby said:


> In their defense, the Police DO probably get shot at more than the average cell phone salesman. I worked retail for years, but my life wasn't on the line every time I punched in either.
> 
> -Cheers


I too have worked in retail in a very upscale grocery store at the time . It was very busy at the time and a customer once started berating a cashier working the express lane , who made the aweful mistake of not catching another customer in line who had more then the 15 items he should for that line . Mr. Pissed Off customer must have had something important to do and really layed into this cashier for A) not catching it and B) not turning the customer with too many items away when he got up to be rung up . 

The cashier apologized for not catching it but stated per store policy she couldn't turn the violating customer away once he made it up to her register . It wasn't good enough for Mr Pissed Off and he kept berating her for her mistake in a very loud manner in front of many other customers . 

Seeing the cashier start to cry and knowing that her son was in the hospital for a kidney problem , I understood how she might have made that mistake and tried to help and again explain things to Mr Pissed Off . Didn't work , he continued to make a scene and at one point stated ; " Well I guess you don't need my business then ! " . Fed up I stated : " You know what we don't if you're going to be an ass , why don't you go shop at another store ! " and proceded to give him directions to the nearest competitors grocery store . 

Evidently Mr Pissed Off knew our CEO of the company . I got a phone call from the CEO who asked if I told that customer off . I admitted it and gave my side of the story figuring I would be fired anyways . He laughed and stated next time just don't tell them to shop some place else and certainly don't give them directions there !

Morale of the story is , I agree most of the time in retail you'd be fired for such actions but then again if you're are dealing with an ass**** , you might not .

Another thing having worked in retail and now work in Law Enforcement is , the MAJORITY of the people you deal with in retail are alot different then the majority of the people we deal with in Law Enforcement . There are also alot more complexities to our job in Law Enforcement as compared to the retail business . Your comparison of the 2 , to me are pretty silly .


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## Don Turnipseed

I see that LE is mostly of the opinion that people should look up to them as our protectors. I can't buy that. I have see people be total jerks for nop reason, I have seen LE be total jerks for no reason except they think they can. I told the story aboutmhaving sis county sherrifs at my gate not long ago. Awaken out of a sound sleep at 3 in the morning by 20 dogs going balistic. I walk out the door and there is six headlights and numerous flachlights on me as one pretty little prick barks out oeders to raise my hands and keep them in plain sight. Am I going to be nice because they are as dumb as the day is long. I wouldn't be nice if it was a drunk waking me up and I am not going to be nice to them. I told the one to go f###k himself and told them all to turn of those g*****danmed lights and that I was coming out to have a chat weith them. The original one kept barking orders and wanted to know what the address was. I told him to never mind what my address was.... what are you looking for sonny. Well, turns out they aren't even on the right damned street but the one was so busy barking orders and playing tough guy that I couldn't help but push him. I also stayed inside the gate with six dogs also because I have been placed face down in the street a few times even though I was as right as rain. One of the six apologised for the ruckus as he was leaving. So one ass hle out of six and it turned into a scene. You know what they say about the one bad apple spoiling the barrel. I would have normally been upset but polite but asshoes are asshoes and they always seem to be the young ones.


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## Howard Knauf

Everyone has a bad cop story. I've been a dick to civilians, that's the truth. Everyone has a bad day but the main reason I have to be a dick is because dumbass civilians want to question what is going on even when guns are out and the shit is flying. So, sometimes you have to be a dick to keep Mr. 20 questions from getting himself hurt or killed. 

Civilians will rarely know why we do things and what we are up against. They don't understand so they want an on the spot education which is usually the worst time for that chat.

Don, you had no idea what was happening at 3 am, yet you want to give the police a hard time. In this case they were at your place in error (many people don't properly mark their address which is a total PIA!). For all you know they were there to make sure you were OK for whatever reason. 6 cops don't usually show up for BS calls. They don't have a crystal ball knowing you have trained dogs, or know you personally in the pitch dark, cmon.

You never hear about bad firemen...I shoulda been a fireman.


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## Jim Nash

Don Turnipseed said:


> I see that LE is mostly of the opinion that people should look up to them as our protectors. I can't buy that. I have see people be total jerks for nop reason, I have seen LE be total jerks for no reason except they think they can. I told the story aboutmhaving sis county sherrifs at my gate not long ago. Awaken out of a sound sleep at 3 in the morning by 20 dogs going balistic. I walk out the door and there is six headlights and numerous flachlights on me as one pretty little prick barks out oeders to raise my hands and keep them in plain sight. Am I going to be nice because they are as dumb as the day is long. I wouldn't be nice if it was a drunk waking me up and I am not going to be nice to them. I told the one to go f###k himself and told them all to turn of those g*****danmed lights and that I was coming out to have a chat weith them. The original one kept barking orders and wanted to know what the address was. I told him to never mind what my address was.... what are you looking for sonny. Well, turns out they aren't even on the right damned street but the one was so busy barking orders and playing tough guy that I couldn't help but push him. I also stayed inside the gate with six dogs also because I have been placed face down in the street a few times even though I was as right as rain. One of the six apologised for the ruckus as he was leaving. So one ass hle out of six and it turned into a scene. You know what they say about the one bad apple spoiling the barrel. I would have normally been upset but polite but asshoes are asshoes and they always seem to be the young ones.


Don , please point out where I ever said you should look up to me ? Never happened . All I know about your incident is even though they made a mistake with the address , like Howard already said that is easy to make sometimes especially out in the rural areas , it doesn't sound to me that the young cop was the only asshole out there that night . It could of been settled alot quicker and safer if you had just complied and let things get sorted out . Doesn't sound like they just descided " Hey let's go screw with the old weird guy with all the dogs ! " . Sounds like they were responding to something legitimate that required an armed response and someone yelling orders to comply with .

You actually had one apologize to you but that wasn't good enough . That one young cop you felt treated you wrong was the bad apple that made all of us Officers bad . 

Well using your reasoning and having dealt with some true asshole civilians in my line of work they too should have ruined for all other civilians and I should treat all civilians as assholes . In a round about way it sounds like that one young asshole cop treated one old civilian the way you wanted to be treated .


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## Don Turnipseed

Howard, I only gave the young one with the mouth a bad time. They were told there was a green dodge Pu in the drive where they were supposed to be I got a white chevy. They weren't even on the right street and they were using a GPS! My address in ot marked I will admit that but the street they wanted is darned near a mile away and there is a street sign on the road. I had no problem with any of the others and only talked to the one that apoligised.

If it is any consolation, I don't treat LE any different than anyone else. If they are cool, I am cool. If they want to be a jerk, I love being a jerk.

Coming home from the valley about 1 week ago I got into a sobriety checkpoint. I rolled all the windows down and the officer was very professional then he asked me if I had had anything to drink. I clamly told him "No sir, I quit drinking about 25 years ago!" He said, "Good for you.....can I see your drivers license". Darn I wanted to ask him "why, do I look like an illegal to you? Simply because he was hispanic.....but I let that go and he wished me a good evening after checking my license. You see Howard, some of us simply are smart asses and if I hadn't had a couple, I may have said it. Everyone is different.


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## Don Turnipseed

Jim Nash said:


> Don , please point out where I ever said you should look up to me ? Never happened . All I know about your incident is even though they made a mistake with the address , like Howard already said that is easy to make sometimes especially out in the rural areas , it doesn't sound to me that the young cop was the only asshole out there that night . It could of been settled alot quicker and safer if you had just complied and let things get sorted out . Doesn't sound like they just descided " Hey let's go screw with the old weird guy with all the dogs ! " . Sounds like they were responding to something legitimate that required an armed response and someone yelling orders to comply with .
> 
> You actually had one apologize to you but that wasn't good enough . That one young cop you felt treated you wrong was the bad apple that made all of us Officers bad .
> 
> Well using your reasoning and having dealt with some true asshole civilians in my line of work they too should have ruined for all other civilians and I should treat all civilians as assholes . In a round about way it sounds like that one young asshole cop treated one old civilian the way you wanted to be treated .


I am not and never will deny I can be an asshole.....but I have to have a reason. I was pissed when I got up from a sound sleep because of the dogs and had no idea there was anyone out there at that time of morning. Had I know I probably would have pulled the 44 hanging by the door on my way out. I am glad I didn't.


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## Jim Nash

Don Turnipseed said:


> I am not and never will deny I can be an asshole.....but I have to have a reason. I was pissed when I got up from a sound sleep because of the dogs and had no idea there was anyone out there at that time of morning. Had I know I probably would have pulled the 44 hanging by the door on my way out. I am glad I didn't.


At least you did one smart thing that night .


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## Don Turnipseed

I got to go to work for a while. Howard, Jim, I just realised I am sitting here poking you with that proverbial stick. Sorry. I will try to stop that. Love both of your posts on dogs. Oops, there I go again.


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## Jim Nash

Don Turnipseed said:


> I got to go to work for a while. Howard, Jim, I just realised I am sitting here poking you with that proverbial stick. Sorry. I will try to stop that. Love both of your posts on dogs. Oops, there I go again.


If it's a retail job try not to be an asshole . You might get fired .


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## Howard Knauf

Don Turnipseed said:


> Howard, I only gave the young one with the mouth a bad time. They were told there was a green dodge Pu in the drive where they were supposed to be I got a white chevy. They weren't even on the right street and they were using a GPS! My address in ot marked I will admit that but the street they wanted is darned near a mile away and there is a street sign on the road. I had no problem with any of the others and only talked to the one that apoligised.


 New breed of cops....aint technology wonderful. Those gadgets are part of the dumbing down of America. After all, it's a GPS...super technology; why wouldn't they believe it? Mistakes are made....you never make a mistake? If anyone's got a bitch, it's the poor sap who they really were on their way to help.

BTW...things change in a real scenario. People and vehicles move, and eyewitnesses can be color blind. We don't work in a sterile enviroment where all the constants are known ahead of time.


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## David Frost

Sometimes, this job just sucks. http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/05/20/arkansas-police-officers-shot-dead-suspects-reportedly-killed/


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## David Ruby

David Frost said:


> Sometimes, this job just sucks. http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/05/20/arkansas-police-officers-shot-dead-suspects-reportedly-killed/


It may not seem like it, but those stories (and I do read about them, more often than I'd like) keep things in perspective for me, and are why I take a look at where the Police (or anybody doing any kind of job like that which puts them in the line of fire) are coming from. Sure, I may see things more from the citizens' side just because, honestly, I'm NOT a cop, even if I do know some and chat with them and am friends with them. However, despite that, I am still cognizant of stories like that.

For what it's worth, I do appreciate and respect the effort and the guts it takes to put oneself into that situation knowing the risk and getting the ridicule and apparent lack-of-respect cops get (at least from some). That story _does_ suck though, and I would imagine anybody that's ever been in a similar situation, or known (and cared about) somebody else who had, regardless of the outcome it would no doubt color your view of things.

-Cheers


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## Jim Nash

David Ruby said:


> It may not seem like it, but those stories (and I do read about them, more often than I'd like) keep things in perspective for me, and are why I take a look at where the Police (or anybody doing any kind of job like that which puts them in the line of fire) are coming from. Sure, I may see things more from the citizens' side just because, honestly, I'm NOT a cop, even if I do know some and chat with them and am friends with them. However, despite that, I am still cognizant of stories like that.
> 
> For what it's worth, I do appreciate and respect the effort and the guts it takes to put oneself into that situation knowing the risk and getting the ridicule and apparent lack-of-respect cops get (at least from some). That story _does_ suck though, and I would imagine anybody that's ever been in a similar situation, or known (and cared about) somebody else who had, regardless of the outcome it would no doubt color your view of things.
> 
> -Cheers


David , I didn't take it as you were being disrespectful . I was just trying to give my point of view because I feel this subject is not as simple as your first comments made it seem . It's often difficult understanding others points of view on things especially on an issue like this . 

Often times we tend to pigeonhole each other into the extreme side of an opposing position of an issue . 

I see now there was more to your beliefs then I originally got from your first posts . In relation please don't take my comments as meaning I feel Law Enforcement's actions should go unquestioned or that I don't think there are bad or ***hole cops out there .


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## Patrick Murray

Howard Knauf said:


> Everyone has a bad cop story. I've been a dick to civilians, that's the truth. Everyone has a bad day but the main reason I have to be a dick is because dumbass civilians want to question what is going on even when guns are out and the shit is flying. So, sometimes you have to be a dick to keep Mr. 20 questions from getting himself hurt or killed.


That all makes sense to me, Howard. We're all human and we shouldn't expect perfection from anyone, including the police. However, mistakes and "bad days" should be the exception and not the norm. 

Let me share my perspective.

The border-patrol agent's question about which stores they were going to was disingenuous and was a baited question. When the tourist scoffed at the seemingly idiotic question the agent went off the deep-end. It sounds to me like this agent and his associates had a chip on their shoulder and decided to take it out on this guy and his wife. They're tourists coming to the states to spend money, which our economony desperately needs. Treat them with a little consideration. There's no reason to go "Gestapo" on them. Maybe while they were jerking these people around Mohammad El Ka-Boom slipped through another checkpoint. 

We may have to agree to disagree on this one. With that said, I doubt the agency will be using this recording as a training tool for its new officers, no? 

People in positions of government authority must be held to a higher standard of conduct than the rest of us, including a grocery store clerk. The agent in question in this alleged incident fell short of that standard.


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## David Ruby

Jim Nash said:


> David , I didn't take it as you were being disrespectful . I was just trying to give my point of view because I feel this subject is not as simple as your first comments made it seem . It's often difficult understanding others points of view on things especially on an issue like this .
> 
> Often times we tend to pigeonhole each other into the extreme side of an opposing position of an issue .
> 
> I see now there was more to your beliefs then I originally got from your first posts . In relation please don't take my comments as meaning I feel Law Enforcement's actions should go unquestioned or that I don't think there are bad or ***hole cops out there .


Hey Jim, I just wanted to make sure to pay some respect to the cops. I genuinely respect, and am grateful, your perspective. I honestly think we're on the same page, and in real life I'm cool with cops (well, most everybody), in part because that's how I am & was raised, but also I've known and talked to enough LEO folk to have some vague idea of what they go through. But it's important to see it from all perspectives, as well as be aware of the spectrum and not just the extremes.

So, no problem, just wanted to make sure to express that it was an opinion and somewhat representing both sides of the issue as I see it, while making it as crystal clear as possible I wasn't trying to bash cops or disrespect the service you guys do. Especially in relation to a story like Mr. Frost posted.

-Cheers


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## Candy Eggert

David Frost said:


> Sometimes, this job just sucks. http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/05/20/arkansas-police-officers-shot-dead-suspects-reportedly-killed/


A black mark on the soul of humanity :sad::sad: I'm so sorry to read this David.


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## Don Turnipseed

Well I am back from another hard days work. I find it interesting in these conversations that LE always has the excuse of they got pressure and deserve to have a bad day once in a while. I figure I do too. I am in a good mood today and am going to overlook that jim referenced "an old word guy" which would be me. I'll be honest, I have been a sarcastic SOB my whole life. Doubt if I am going to change. Everyone is different. Some are meek and respectful, some aren't. That's life.

Meaning no disrespect, I stated I treat LE as I woul;d anyone else. That is because they are the same as anyone else. Some people choose to be teachers, some choose to be pilots some choose to be LE. It is that simple. It is the job you chose for better or worse. You knew the risks going into it but you got to remember, it isn't the only dangerous job. Logging is way up there. Working crab boats is way up there. It is just another job as I see it. I know a lot of loggers and not once has any of them demanded undue respect because they got a dangerous job. I know two guys that lost half a foot, one with an ax and one when a loader bucket they were working on dropped. I knoiw 2 that were killed by trees. Not one ever figured they were special and had the right to a bad day because they knew what the job was from the get go. I also know LE that everyone respect because they earned it and didn't automatically assumed they deserved it when they put got dressed in the morning.

By the way, my dad was a County Sherrif at one time. My brother works at Avenal correction Center(Happy Valley) They are just people doing a job.


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## Jim Nash

Don Turnipseed said:


> Well I am back from another hard days work. I find it interesting in these conversations that LE always has the excuse of they got pressure and deserve to have a bad day once in a while. I figure I do too. I am in a good mood today and am going to overlook that jim referenced "an old word guy" which would be me. I'll be honest, I have been a sarcastic SOB my whole life. Doubt if I am going to change. Everyone is different. Some are meek and respectful, some aren't. That's life.
> 
> Meaning no disrespect, I stated I treat LE as I woul;d anyone else. That is because they are the same as anyone else. Some people choose to be teachers, some choose to be pilots some choose to be LE. It is that simple. It is the job you chose for better or worse. You knew the risks going into it but you got to remember, it isn't the only dangerous job. Logging is way up there. Working crab boats is way up there. It is just another job as I see it. I know a lot of loggers and not once has any of them demanded undue respect because they got a dangerous job. I know two guys that lost half a foot, one with an ax and one when a loader bucket they were working on dropped. I knoiw 2 that were killed by trees. Not one ever figured they were special and had the right to a bad day because they knew what the job was from the get go. I also know LE that everyone respect because they earned it and didn't automatically assumed they deserved it when they put got dressed in the morning.



Once again never stated we deserve respect for just getting dressed in the morning . Not making excuses for all the bad behavior some officers display either . Conversily Don many think just because we became Police Officers that we have to take their crap all the time or except being assaulted or murdered , simply because we knew that was part of the job . I'm noones whipping boy simply because they had a bad day or have an inferiority complex around police officers , and think we have to take that abuse if it interferes with us doing our job . 

The difference between the other occupations you mentioned is they more then likely aren't going to be put in the position of interacting with you as part of their job as much as a Police Officer will . Unfortunately part of our job entails writting tickets , having to tell people what to do in certain instances or taking away their freedom if they commit a crime . Wether the folks interacting with us in that way deserved it or not most people have a problem with someone telling them what to do (even if we are correct doing it ) . 

Respect is a two way street ,cops shouldn't be ***holes and neither should civilians , but it happens . I will admit I am less likey to be patient with these topics lately and could give a shit about sugar coating things since recently I and the others I work with have again been reminded of the sacrifices we make in this job . Luckily one survived but I can still see the injuries to his face to this day and his hugs and smiles are great to be a part of . Unfortunately the other Officer wasn't so lucky and try telling his family (wife and 2 twin 13 years old daughters) that's what he signed up for . They certainly didn't sign up for it . 

Don , we do have some things in common . Sarcasm is alot of fun for me and so is being a smart ass . I actually toned it down and left out the word fat when I referred to you as an old weird guy . Sorry did I just say that . I'll put my stick away now . I actually like you Don but I tend to respond in kind on certains matters .


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## Don Turnipseed

Jim, Jim, are you trying to insult me now. Yes, I am overweight but I can handle it. I can still swing a chainsaw for a half a day. Of course there are the times I am wishing it would run outa gas so I can take a break. So you thing 245 is fat. LOL This is a rare photo without the Resistol.


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## Patrick Murray

Jim Nash said:


> Respect is a two way street ,cops shouldn't be ***holes and neither should civilians , but it happens . I will admit I am less likey to be patient with these topics lately and could give a shit about sugar coating things since recently I and the others I work with have again been reminded of the sacrifices we make in this job . Luckily one survived but I can still see the injuries to his face to this day and his hugs and smiles are great to be a part of . Unfortunately the other Officer wasn't so lucky and try telling his family (wife and 2 twin 13 years old daughters) that's what he signed up for . They certainly didn't sign up for it .


To Jim and the rest of you police officers, I know you guys have seen more really nasty, terrible things than you probably ever wanted to see or experience. I'm sure you folks could relay some stories about pulling dead children out of wreckage, etc. I presume all of the training in the world didn't prepare you for some of the gut-wrenching things you have had to see because that's your job. I could go on and on but, suffice it to say, you folks have my respect, even if you have a "bad" day. 

I also know there are some really evil, really nasty people out there. There are people that would just as soon kill you and not have an iota of concern for the children of their victim. You guys are the ones we expect to catch and put away, usually at your own personnel peril. Somebody's got to do the dirty work. Nobody likes to see a cop around when they're in a rush to get somewhere but thank God somebody is brave and competent enough to put on the uniform and take out the bad guys. Like I said, you guys have my respect, for damn sure! 

As for the original topic, I showed the video to a friend of mine. He agreed with some of you here. He told me at border crossings you just answer the question respectfully, no matter how dumb the question might seem to be, and keep your cool and be polite and one won't have a problem. I agree that the Canadian should have kept his cool. I think the officer reacted to the Canadian's emotional and incredulous tone of voice. I think it was a mistake on the agent's part and I think he overreacted. Maybe I'm wrong. It wouldn't be the first time, for damn sure! :razz:


----------



## Jim Nash

Don Turnipseed said:


> Jim, Jim, are you trying to insult me now. Yes, I am overweight but I can handle it. I can still swing a chainsaw for a half a day. Of course there are the times I am wishing it would run outa gas so I can take a break. So you thing 245 is fat. LOL This is a rare photo without the Resistol.


Don you're a smart man . I'm merely trying to elicit the same response as you with the pointed stick . If you aren't insulted then I guess I'm not insulting you . I would have been very suprised if you popped a cork over my fat talk . I certainly expected a witty response .


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## Don Turnipseed

Insulted, not me. Witty? I have to be in the mood for it and I have only had one drink so it is too early for witty. I can tell you that I wear western hats because baseball hats look stupid on me. The bills on those baseball hats are soooo narrow the barely shade my eyes. I never could get them to look like they do on you little guys. That better. LOL.


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## Jim Nash

Don Turnipseed said:


> Insulted, not me. Witty? I have to be in the mood for it and I have only had one drink so it is too early for witty. I can tell you that I wear western hats because baseball hats look stupid on me. The bills on those baseball hats are soooo narrow the barely shade my eyes. I never could get them to look like they do on you little guys. That better. LOL.



Much . I'm not much into wearing hats of any kind . They only draw attention to how big my head is in relationship to the rest of my body .


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## Howard Knauf

Patrick Murray said:


> The border-patrol agent's question about which stores they were going to was disingenuous and was a baited question. When the tourist scoffed at the seemingly idiotic question the agent went off the deep-end.


 Patrick,
How can you know this? When you allude it to being a baited question, you assume that the guard wants a confrontation. That doesn't make sense. Why make the job harder than it already is?

I ask a lot of stupid questions when interviewing possible suspects. Ever seen Columbo? He does it for reasons that are revealed later. I do it to guage consitency in the suspects' responses.

When I took my civil service exam and they asked if I have had black, tarry bowel movements I didn't get all loud and obnoxious. I figured it out later.


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## Charles Guyer

> When I took my civil service exam and they asked if I have had black, tarry bowel movements I didn't get all loud and obnoxious. I figured it out later.


They could have been concerned with a history of upper gastro-intestinal bleeds, most likely caused by peptic ulcers, a common physiological response to stress. Black, tarry bowel movements are the most prevalent symptom.


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## Howard Knauf

Maybe so, but I wasn't an ass about it. See? That's how it works.=D>


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## Charles Guyer

> Maybe so, but I wasn't an ass about it. See? That's how it works.=D>


Cheers to that. 

P.S. I've got to give props to the NC High Patrol. I've probably gotten about 10 speeding tickets from those guys since the age of 16. I've always ended up thanking them as hand me the slip and walk away. Always sharply dressed, ultra professional, respectful, and always give you a ticket. I think LE officers like that truly inspire confidence in the public. I'm sure there are many more agencies like this throughout the country, but I'm proud to have these ladies and gentleman representing, and protecting NC.


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## Howard Knauf

Never got one in NC, but a SC trooper got me on I-26 at 3 am. I was all olone on the road and he still stroked me. I thought "What an ass", but was still respectful like my parents raised me. When I get a 13 year old girl give me the finger for no reason, it's no wonder why cops have attitudes. And parents got the gall to give the cop shit when they speak to the parents about it. The degradation of America is in full swing.


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## Jim Nash

I got a ticket while in my marked squad from a Wisconsin State Trooper . 

But I behaved myself . He even called my Chief about it . I wonder if he ever called other motorists bosses after he gave them a ticket .


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## Howard Knauf

Right?...For some reason everyone wants to call our job; even if you're off duty. Why? because they know it'll get us in trouble. If you're a cell phone salesman and do something off work hours no one calls their boss. I can't wait to retire so I can be that crotchedy old bastard and get out some pent up frustration on dumbasses.


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## Charles Guyer

And there you have it. It's a problem with the society in which we live. If a cop had told my old man that I had flicked him off, I would have gotten the ass whippin of the year, right there on the side of the highway in front of god and everybody. Common courtesy and respect for authority are dinosaurs. You have my wholehearted empathy in that respect.


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## Jim Nash

Charles Guyer said:


> And there you have it. It's a problem with the society in which we live. If a cop had told my old man that I had flicked him off, I would have gotten the ass whippin of the year, right there on the side of the highway in front of god and everybody. Common courtesy and respect for authority are dinosaurs. You have my wholehearted empathy in that respect.


Funny , my dad was the same way even though he got in trouble with the cops alot in his younger days . Wasn't just for cops , teachers , coaches or any adult for that matter . I think respect and common courtesy for anyone are on the decline these days .


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## Jim Nash

Howard Knauf said:


> Right?...For some reason everyone wants to call our job; even if you're off duty. Why? because they know it'll get us in trouble. If you're a cell phone salesman and do something off work hours no one calls their boss. I can't wait to retire so I can be that crotchedy old bastard and get out some pent up frustration on dumbasses.


Yeah the Chief was told about it before hand anyways so wasn't such a big deal , just got me thinking that's all .


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## Craig Wood

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: Quote:
> Originally Posted by Bob Scott
> Rights aren't a given. They are earned!
> 
> Holy ****, you don't actually believe this shit do you ??
> 
> Are you one of those idiots that think that driving is a privilege ?? What part of "free" don't you understand ?? This is the sheep mentality I am talking about. Stop that shit immediately.


Jeff

I think our rights were earned.

I contend that although they were God given, our rights were earned by the blood of brave men and women willing to die for said rights. 

At the end of the day the man with the gun and the man with the recorder both behaved badly.

What was made better by the man with the recorder instigating a confrontation.

He and his wife were arrested and I would imagine every person who had to deal with the border guard for the rest of his shift had to suffer as well.

It is plain to see the man planned the situation when he brought and used the recorder.

What was his agenda?

Craig (a very well armed sheep)

ps how was your flight home? I also need your address can you pm me please.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: Civilians will rarely know why we do things and what we are up against.

I often wonder if you guys do either.

The point of this is not how wonderful you are because you are a cop. You say that we don't wake up with a possibility of getting shot at, well, how may cops really get shot at ?? I mean, honestly, if it is that annoying to you that you get shot at, which I don't believe for a minute, then I guess other employment is out, because naturally, you will lose all your ability to show power over others. 

MAYBE you are not like that, but I know a few cops that left the force, and had a lot of problems keeping jobs because of this power trip thing they get to experience.

Now, the point of the whole thing was the guy was way too over the top. I am not one of the sheep in this world, and I would not stand for it either. This is a free country in name only anymore. Look at Bob Scotts silly ass "rights are earned" statement. WTF is this world coming to ?? 


I was in the Marines, people shot at me, I can say probably a lot more than you have ever been shot at, and by people that have actually been trained to hit me, not gang bangy the clown. I doubt you will ever hear me complain about that or use it to sadly try and turn favor towards me, which, also sadly, many people gave you the aaaaawwwwwwwwww for.

Sad, the whole thing is sad. I cannot believe that you cannot see how that guy was wrong.


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## Bob Scott

You don't have a right to someone's respect, you have to earn it. Starting a discussion (LEO or civilian) with an attitude will not get you respect in particular if said LEO or civilian is an asshole.
How is escalating it going to prove anything? 
I have the right to do damn near anything I want but I don't believe being an asshole will earn a thing.


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## Matthew Grubb

Ben Colbert said:


> , when cops on this very board think that someone should be arrested for violating wire tapping laws for taping a cop,


Ben... I was telling you what the law is in my state.... And If I pull you over and don't tell you that I am recording you on audio and video from my car-cam guess what.... I'm committing a felony. Great thing about the USA, if you don't like one state's laws you can move to another one or get the laws changed.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Nice try Bob, but we are not talking about walking around and just shitting on people. I am sure this guy had some previous experience with this shit, and it is unacceptable, so this time, he recorded it.

Just like it is unacceptable to think that rights are earned. Respect might be, but I didn't hear anyone that I would respect when I heard that border idiot running his suck. He is representing ME and I do not want to be represented in that manner. He is a government employee. I did not speak to people like that when I was in the service. I think he should be fired. I do not understand why it is so hard to believe that this person should be fired for this shit.


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## Jim Nash

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: Civilians will rarely know why we do things and what we are up against.
> 
> I often wonder if you guys do either.
> 
> The point of this is not how wonderful you are because you are a cop. You say that we don't wake up with a possibility of getting shot at, well, how may cops really get shot at ?? I mean, honestly, if it is that annoying to you that you get shot at, which I don't believe for a minute, then I guess other employment is out, because naturally, you will lose all your ability to show power over others.
> 
> MAYBE you are not like that, but I know a few cops that left the force, and had a lot of problems keeping jobs because of this power trip thing they get to experience.
> 
> Now, the point of the whole thing was the guy was way too over the top. I am not one of the sheep in this world, and I would not stand for it either. This is a free country in name only anymore. Look at Bob Scotts silly ass "rights are earned" statement. WTF is this world coming to ??
> 
> 
> I was in the Marines, people shot at me, I can say probably a lot more than you have ever been shot at, and by people that have actually been trained to hit me, not gang bangy the clown. I doubt you will ever hear me complain about that or use it to sadly try and turn favor towards me, which, also sadly, many people gave you the aaaaawwwwwwwwww for.
> 
> Sad, the whole thing is sad. I cannot believe that you cannot see how that guy was wrong.



Well Jeff since you wondered , I have been shot at and I've seen what it looks like when a shot hits it's mark on too many occassions . Since I've been on there have been 3 Officers in my department shot and killed . Had another shot and wounded , 2 stabbed (both were K9 Officers on the unit with me) 1 almost fatally . Have a best friend who I came on with shoot and kill a suspect coming at him with a sickle had another on my K9 unit shoot a homicide suspect firing at him . 

This winter 1 of our Officers was shot in the leg while struggling with another homicide suspect . Luckily the badguy lost and our Officer returned to work about a month ago . This suspect was out of jail and was awaiting a case where my K9 found dope and a gun in a car he was dealing dope out of earlier last summer . 

Just a couple of weeks ago we had a Maplewood Sgt. ambushed and shot in the head while in our city and I spent 19 hours searching for the killers and while doing so one of my fellow K9 handlers encountered the shooter as he tried to walk out of the perimeter . There was a struggle and the suspect was eventually shot and killed , but only after breaking my friend's nose and trying to take his gun . 

I have had a gang attempt a drive by on my house with not only me present but my then wife and newborn son . I was also struck by a vehicle as I chased someone on foot in downtown Minneapolis early in my career . The driver fled the scene and was never caught and to my knowledge had nothing to do with the person I was chasing . 

The first Officer I knew to die in the line of duty was while I was a Deputy working in Minneapolis . The Minneapolis Officer was a traffic cop nearing retirement and was shot as he sat having lunch in a pizza joint . I knew him as a nice , soft spoken cop who was always polite and patient with the people I saw him bring into our jail . I always remember how no matter what he did his reading glasses stayed stuck to his forehead . I remember driving through neighborhoods seeing people celebrate and heckle us saying how glad they were a cop got killed . 

The next two who I worked with in St Paul ( 1 of which I grew up with also) were shot and killed by an ex soldier who used his Gulf War experiance as a defense even though he saw no battle . Because of that I don't however hold that against all the other soldiers out there and realize he was just one of the shitbirds like any other group has(including cops) and know that most soldiers are folks who still have my respect for what they have done for me . 

You talk about us missing your point , well you obviously missed mine . Mine was to give another perspective most don't know about us , in order for people to see this is not a problem that can be solved just by solving Police Officers' "attitudes" . Nowhere do I make excuses for bad cops . 

You of all people being sensitive to that BPO's "attitude" . You behave in a much more confrontational way on here everyday . I tend to like that at times because I enjoy people getting their attitudes checked from time to time . 

One thing I guess I learn throughout the years is how hypocritical all of us can be , myself included . If you're going to be so sensitive to that then check yourself too and don't bug out on how cops should be better then everybody else in their behavior . You can't have it both ways . Are we better then everyone else or are we just people with flaws just like everyone else . You've said it yourself and I agree cops are no better then anyone else . If that's so true why do you then expect them to live up to a standard you know they can't possibly do . 

Reality is cops are people and will react to hostilty negatively on occassions , just like civilians , there's no stopping it . The only way to decrease it are for all of us to work together lessening the chance of it occurring . Being an asshole often creates other assholes in response . Like I said before it's a 2 way street .

In listening to this audio I think the BPO handled himself well .


----------



## Jim Nash

I would like to add that I don't expect you our anyone else to start kissing my ass about my experiances . I am pretty aware there are others , soldiers , cops , EMTs , teachers , average citizens , etc. that have gone through much worse , but I do want to give you a better picture of what we do , how we do it sometimes and why some of us might feel the way we do . I certainly am not speaking for all Police Officer just giving my views and opinions .


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## Jeff Oehlsen

I still got you beat by quite a bit. It is ok though, I never rode around in a car. So you got me beat there, I had to walk to where I was going, and carry my shit with me.

Maybe a different job for you. The whole resume of danger thing is cute and all, but you did sign up for it. 

Maybe thats the difference between us. Well, that, and I think the guy asking what store at the border was a ****ing prick who should be fired.


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## Ian Forbes

David Ruby said:


> Interesting. I would wonder, would you ask dumb questions like that as a matter-of-course, or just when you had suspicion (just cause, or just a gut reaction)? Not sure if there is any protocol for that. My problem with questions like that are that, even if you're totally innocent, there is really no right answer because NOBODY is going to have a right answer. ~99% of people are going to say, "beats me, we're just going shopping".


And if the guy had responded like that he would probably have been well on the way to clearing customs.

Travelling through 'customs' into Europe by car, I'm often asked "Are you travelling for business or pleasure?". There is no right response to this question (sometimes it is one, sometimes the other, sometimes both). However, if I were to get all flustered, confused, angry etc., it may indicate to them that I warrant further investigation. On with the rubber gloves.......


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## Christopher Jones

I understand that police do put themselfs in harms way, just as a fireman does. A mate of mine comes from South Africa, where he was a police officer. He and his partner responded to a call as someone had been stabbed. When they arrived it turned out there was no stabbing and infact the call had been faked. It was an ambush. His partner was shot dead and he was shot in the stomach. They were shot because the bad guys wanted to get some guns from the cops. He is now a cop here and he doesnt have the same attitudes of that border guard for instance, hes not on a power trip. He's just a good guy, and people respect him. 
I think the issue of police respecting individual rights comes from the top down. Too many times when bad cops have done bad shit, like tazering a 10 year old girl, SWATing the wrong house and shooting dead an 80 year old woman, tazering people until they give urine samples for DUI testing, the police comanders and the police union side with the officers. There needs to be a zero tollerance for police officers as well.
Actually for police officers there is one bigger problem than the dangers faced on the job. Last time I saw some numbers twice as many Police commit suicide than are killed on the job each year. That to me is a much bigger problem that needs attention.


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## Jim Nash

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I still got you beat by quite a bit. It is ok though, I never rode around in a car. So you got me beat there, I had to walk to where I was going, and carry my shit with me.
> 
> Maybe a different job for you. The whole resume of danger thing is cute and all, but you did sign up for it.
> 
> Maybe thats the difference between us. Well, that, and I think the guy asking what store at the border was a ****ing prick who should be fired.


Or maybe the little whinny tourist has to grow a pair if a question like where he's going to shop is going to make him act like an ***hole . Oh wait , he was an ***hole from the beginning so it can't be that . 

Guess I'm going to have to remember that question next time I want to get under your skin . Here's your skirt .


I missed this little gem too . 

" He is representing ME and I do not want to be represented in that manner. He is a government employee. I did not speak to people like that when I was in the service. "

Jeff what I usually like is you honesty . Now you come up that ? Bull**** !


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## Guest

> I was in the Marines, people shot at me, I can say probably a lot more than you have ever been shot at, and by people that have actually been trained to hit me, not *gang bangy the clown.*




No, those were just half the guys you enlisted with. OH SHNAP! :-$ :lol:


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## Guest

In all seriousness, the places comparable to "war" are few and far between in this country, in terms of square mileage. Marine infantry is obviously not comparable. That's kind of a trump card, and theres no use disputing that.

I'll say this, though...it's not an uncommon phenomenon to have high speed operators (or so they consider themselves) come out of the military and into LE. What I'm talking specifically talking about is the first 6 months or so when it becomes apparent that they think they are above the bullshit, and are waiting impatiently for...um...something else. It doesn't always work out.

Well, no. That's exactly what the job is. And that's all it is. It's retail sales and secretarial work with the possibility of low-level violence (most of the time) and small business owners who "know your chief" etc. It's not the raging fever of war, but it's maybe more of a two decade head-ache....._if you're a cynic._

The varied tasks can actually be highly entertaining.


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## David Frost

When asked; "What is police work like", by a young person considering law enforcement as a career, I frequently give my answer. Law enforcement can be hours and hours endless boring routine, interupted by moments of sheer terror.

DFrost


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## Howard Knauf

Jeff,

You're getting soft. Maybe you should change your signature line.:-\"

I became a cop late in life. I didn't feel the need to have power. Matter of fact, my biggest hurdle in the beginning was being too nice. Always yes sir, no ma'am, shake hands even with shit bags etc cause thats how I was raised....My attitude wasn't like it is now,,,assholes molded me. 

I've been shot at, and nearly clubbed to death...me being Mr. nice guy has saved the lives of a lot of shit bags because I gave them more of a chance than they gave me. One day it may get me killed. When working the dogs I could have bitten 5 times more assholes than I did. My handler friends always ragged me because I was so nice to the punks that did a burglary, robbery, car jacking etc and I had every opportunity to bite but held back....afraid of the damn DOJ more than my personal safety.

Cops do have a high suicide rate...it's from having to bottle up anger and be Mr. Nice guy to all the shit heads. Yea, I knew it would be a tough job, so what? We get slammed for bullshit while axe murderers get govt compensation because they don't like balogna sandwiches in jail.](*,)](*,)

The guard could have been nicer...he could have handed the interview to another guard. He also could have put the beat down on the little prick. Either way, he's in the shit.


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## Don Turnipseed

I thought confrontation was healthy. I always enjoyed it.


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## Howard Knauf

It can be. I, like you, can be a real sarcastic smartass. Sometimes it's a stress reliever...sometime's I'm signing discipline paperwork...sometimes it's worth it!!


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## Randy Allen

If I wanted to smuggle something across the boarder, that's a ploy worth considering.
Have someone run interference just ahead of me.


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## Lynn Cheffins

When talking face to face with someone who has the authority to take your car apart down to the springs, whether they are being civil or a total a-hole it - it's just a really bad time to start running your lip. 

All I know if I got stuck in line behind Mr Tape-Recorder on a hot day at the border I would have been about ready to do him in myself.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Jim, the very few times I was put in a position to deal with civilians in uniform, I never spoke like that.

Drunk and silly in the bar, well, this shit never occurred in a bar, and I would not be saying the guy was a prick if this happened in a bar.

I did not think the recording guy was that big of an asshole, just someone who had had enough.

However, he should have told the guy he was going shopping at his mothers scratch and dent pussy sale, as he is looking for cheap shit, and he knows he dented that bitch last time he was banging her.

I mean if you are gonna go, then go all the way. I give him nothing for originality, or taste, or slammage.

Now as far as skirts go, yours is still firmly in place from the last time I see. What a ***, throwing your "scary" resume to win a disscussion over.

You get high heels and a ****ing parade for that.

I thought it would take more BS to get the "scary" resume out of you. HA HA.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Lepic, you should quiet down, or I will send you to teach freshman english at the local high school.


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## Jim Nash

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Jim, the very few times I was put in a position to deal with civilians in uniform, I never spoke like that.
> 
> Drunk and silly in the bar, well, this shit never occurred in a bar, and I would not be saying the guy was a prick if this happened in a bar.
> 
> I did not think the recording guy was that big of an asshole, just someone who had had enough.
> 
> However, he should have told the guy he was going shopping at his mothers scratch and dent pussy sale, as he is looking for cheap shit, and he knows he dented that bitch last time he was banging her.
> 
> I mean if you are gonna go, then go all the way. I give him nothing for originality, or taste, or slammage.
> 
> Now as far as skirts go, yours is still firmly in place from the last time I see. What a ***, throwing your "scary" resume to win a disscussion over.
> 
> You get high heels and a ****ing parade for that.
> 
> I thought it would take more BS to get the "scary" resume out of you. HA HA.


Jeff , what stores do you shop at for your skirts anyways ?

Your panties get in a bunch over a question about shopping but you can celebrate the death of a woman's dog here and not have the class to apologize and you expect me to believe how you acted in uniform ? BS . 

Explains a lot now that you didn't have much contact with civilians . I can guarantee it that if you did and enough of them were ***holes to you that the Jeff we all know would come out . Enough with th holier the thoe act . I'm not buying it .


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## will fernandez

any behaviour that occurs often absolutely has occurred before.


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## Guest

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Lepic, you should quiet down, or I will send you to teach freshman english at the local high school.


R they hawt?

Jim, you should know better. I know you've been to their houses before. A marine who can't handle his 17 year old stepdaughter named Brandeen (Or Misty, Heaven, Angel, Diamond etc) and whose voice remains all amped for like 20 minutes straight.

The intensity is simply draining.

Yes, these are your customer service representatives Jeff is talking about. \\/


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: 
Your panties get in a bunch over a question about shopping but you can celebrate the death of a woman's dog here and not have the class to apologize

YOU MEAN THIS WOMAN ???



..............................................
_ *** mod note *** We don't copy/paste from other discussion boards here. I understand this text is from PDB at _http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/bulletins_read/389806.html?pagen=3

_Let's keep it there. Thank you. *** end ***_
..............................................



You think I am going to apologize to a ****stick like this ?? Are you high ?? You must be a bit angry that I think your self imposed sacrifice resume makes you look like a little ***. 

I can still see the dead guys too. I just don't cry about it on a public forum, because nobody gives a ****, nor do they have to.

You think that bringing up ****sticks dead dog is gonna bother me ?? Gonna piss off people ??

If you got in trouble, and I told you that you could come crash at my place, the LAST thing I would do is charge you rent, or hold your dogs ransom.

**** that bitch, you don't know the shit that the rest of us know. I guess you never thought of that while you were re-living your self pity party.

HA HA My arguement wins.


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## Jim Nash

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote:
> Your panties get in a bunch over a question about shopping but you can celebrate the death of a woman's dog here and not have the class to apologize
> 
> YOU MEAN THIS WOMAN ???
> 
> 
> [email protected]
> to me, vomdrachen
> 
> show details 3:40 PM (29 minutes ago)
> 
> sending money soon? You have a few days left. Hope you don't think I'm bluffing. I'm not. You have had 4 MONTHS to communicate with me about payments, send me the POA for registrations so payments could be made via selling puppies - etc. YOU chose not to do so, now it's nearly too late. Right now the puppies are worth zero to me. Zero because YOU refused to send the agreed-upon POA to register them, which would have made it possible for me to advertise and sell them, getting the money you owed me in addition to monies for me and puppies for you. Why would I even think about selling, promising, taking deposits for, guaranteeing, signing contracts for puppies that may not be registered? Of course I wouldn't think of it. So they sit here almost ready to go to new homes, but there are no homes for them. YOU chose to not send the agreed-upon POA to register the puppies. So, the puppies were not advertised, not sold, and now they are homeless in a boarding kennel with no prospects. I can't keep puppies around, and why would I spend the extra time, effort and money signing spay/neuter guarantees to be followed up on, health guarantees and spending hours on the phone and in person with people coming to see FREE puppies? Why should I?
> 
> So, a few more days and off to a shelter they will go. I don't see a problem with bringing puppies to a shelter (not a kill shelter of course). Puppies are very adoptable. Where they will be spayed/neutered (early spay/neuter but oh well it isn't the worst thing to happen), vaccinated, and adopted. Not the end of the world, not a terrible thing. Just a shame.
> 
> Gabi on the other hand, will be difficult if not impossible to adopt out. I really hate to send her to the shelter. She's a good girl and doesn't deserve being abandoned by YOU. She deserves a home with a couch just for her and people to spoil her - just like the home I FOUND FOR HER BUT YOU NIXED and lost it for her. But I will send her to the shelter, if I don't see the money in the mail in very short order or at least a reasonable payment to hold her a little longer.
> 
> You think I am going to apologize to a ****stick like this ?? Are you high ?? You must be a bit angry that I think your self imposed sacrifice resume makes you look like a little ***.
> 
> I can still see the dead guys too. I just don't cry about it on a public forum, because nobody gives a ****, nor do they have to.
> 
> You think that bringing up ****sticks dead dog is gonna bother me ?? Gonna piss off people ??
> 
> If you got in trouble, and I told you that you could come crash at my place, the LAST thing I would do is charge you rent, or hold your dogs ransom.
> 
> **** that bitch, you don't know the shit that the rest of us know. I guess you never thought of that while you were re-living your self pity party.
> 
> HA HA My arguement wins.



You think so ? 

Whose looking for pity now ? You don't post it on a forum ? Looks like you just did . Who is so desperate to win this discussion now . 

I think your little temper tantrum is proving my point about you . 

You're full of s*** on this topic and have proven you're just as failable as those you're criticizing .


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Not desperate, just the winner. WINNER !!!!! HA HA
=D>=D>=D>=D>=D>=D>=D>=D>=D>=D>=D>=D>=D>=D>=D>=D>=D>=D>=D>=D>=D>=D>=D>=D>=D>=D>

LOL


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## Guest

Ok, last shot.

...and one I'm thinking of in particular, went to Texas and committed suicide by cop shortly thereafter.

Another successful graduate of the circuit court's "felony diversion program" sponsored by the Department of the Navy. =D>


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## Don Turnipseed

Well this thread has gone from slightly amusing to totally outa hand. I think it should be locked up the key thrown away...... and deleted from the files. For no other reason than that I don't like it. Everyone wants respect. I was never in LE buit I did my part in keeping several extra officers gamefully employed when I was younger. I would think there would have been more appreciation showed.....but no.....no appreciation at all for giving you guys something to do that was meaningfull. You guys talk about all the guys you know that were shot . Well let me tell you that causing trouble wasn't exactly a walk in the park either because I am probably the only one that was actually shot and arrested. I was about 24 at the time and I blame it on my childhood being raised by two school teachers. LMAO All I got to say is there is two ways to look at everything. I just want a little respect and appreciatioin for the part I played.


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## Guest

Duly noted, Donald.


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## Don Turnipseed

Thank you Steven. You are a true genleman and a scholar. You have my appreciation and respect. ;-)


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## Howard Knauf

I guess there's got to be cowboys and indians....only problem is telling which ones are the bad guys eh? It's all in a persons' perception.


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## Ben Colbert

A little bit of an awkward analogy Howard.

No one is saying that bad guys aren't bad guys. What I'm saying that there seems to be a culture of looking down on "civilians" among law enforcement personnel.

(Also I think the cowboys were the bad guys but that's another subject all together)


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## Jim Nash

I had good intentions with the things I brought up in this discussion and in others in the past . But Jeff is right about one thing. They never should of been brought up . 

They deserve more respect then that . I should have known better .


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## Gerry Grimwood

Jim Nash said:


> I had good intentions with the things I brought up in this discussion and in others in the past . But Jeff is right about one thing. They never should of been brought up .
> 
> They deserve more respect then that . I should have known better .


Hey, did you call me a cheezehead :lol:


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## Jeff Oehlsen

I am glad that you said that Jim, the bad things that have happened should never be brought up for something like this discussion. That is your private thing, and not some silly weight to balance a discussion in your favor.

There are many of us who bear that weight, and I hope I made it clear how I feel about bringing shit like that up. It is obvious that you are used to people rolling over on their backs for you. 

For those of you that feel that behavior like this is ok, and that you should just stand their and take it, I feel shame for you.


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## Jim Nash

Ben Colbert said:


> A little bit of an awkward analogy Howard.
> 
> No one is saying that bad guys aren't bad guys. What I'm saying that there seems to be a culture of looking down on "civilians" among law enforcement personnel.
> 
> (Also I think the cowboys were the bad guys but that's another subject all together)


Ben that's a battle I fight everyday in with dealing with people . Again noone denies some cops do that and that's why I bring up it's a 2 way street . Problem is that some people feel that way and bring it into their next encounter with a Police Officer who isn't doing that but they can't let that feeling go and the interaction goes down hill from there . 

For me I can see it alot and usually try and restart the exchange , most realize it and things improve but others stick with the animosity and nothing gets solved and when it's in relationship to solving a problem the Officer was called there to solve if we can't communicate to solve it many times the only answer to solving the problem is arrest . 

I'll give an example , I got called to a loud music complaint in a garage . The owner lets me in and it's LOUD . It's a busy Friday night and these are just 3 guys working on a car . Been there done that . 

I simply want to get them to turn it down so I can move on to other calls . I have to yell , not because I want to be a jerk but simply to be heard . The owner gets mad because he thinks I'm yelling at him for no reason . It's like a bad version of Abbott and Costello's "Who's on First " from there ( Stop yelling at me ! , I'm not yelling at you just turn the radio down ! , "See you're yelling at me !)and his bias has taken over so much he doesn't even realize he has to yell back to be heard . I yell back to try and explain and it just gets worse . He just thinks because I'm yelling that I'm bulling him . Now they are all getting wound up so I ask to talk to him outside , yelling of course but asking . Doesn't work . I end up going further into the garage and shut it off myself . He's more pissed now because I went further into his garage and feel violated . I have every right at this point to do so .

He never calms down even after I try to start over . His friends got it but he couldn't let it go . I still don't cite him just ask him to keep it down and leave . 

Not the end though , he calls my boss and complains about what a jerk I was and turns the music back on over the phone . Boss calls me mad that I didn't solve the problem first time and I'm sent back to tag him . Luckily the music was of so I just left the tag in his door . This guy seemed like a normal guy . I think the yelling mistakenly just lived up to his expectations and he lost it . You think I might write more tags now to cover my butt in those situations , you'd be right . 

It has to be a 2 way street or many times it leaves us with very few options if we can't cooperate with one another and our actions can sometimes be misinterpreted especially if they are holding biases from the past . Usually those few options we have left only end up reiforcing those folks beliefs and it's a self perpetuating cycle from there in future dealings with this person .


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## Jim Nash

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I am glad that you said that Jim, the bad things that have happened should never be brought up for something like this discussion. That is your private thing, and not some silly weight to balance a discussion in your favor.
> 
> There are many of us who bear that weight, and I hope I made it clear how I feel about bringing shit like that up. It is obvious that you are used to people rolling over on their backs for you.
> 
> For those of you that feel that behavior like this is ok, and that you should just stand their and take it, I feel shame for you.


Jeff your first sentence I agree with . But the rest of it shows you're misinterpreting what I was trying to say . But I'll let it go .


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## Howard Knauf

Ben Colbert said:


> A little bit of an awkward analogy Howard.
> 
> No one is saying that bad guys aren't bad guys. What I'm saying that there seems to be a culture of looking down on "civilians" among law enforcement personnel.
> 
> (Also I think the cowboys were the bad guys but that's another subject all together)


 Like I said...it's all about perception.

The guard is doing his job, and the "citizen" doesn't like the way he's doing it so that makes the guard a bad guy in his mind. The citizen turns into a dickhead so the guard sees him as the bad guy. Both lose IMO.

BTW...I think the indians were the good guys as well.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

What are the odds that you came up with something that I missed ?? Seriously, do you believe that I missed what you said ?? **** what I wrote, do you really think you came up with some shit that went over my head ??


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## Ben Colbert

Jim,

On the other hand you have someone like me. My dad was a cop. I work in federal law enforcement. I obviously should trend to having favorable interactions with police. I have dealt with Park Police here on base more than once and each time they are short, rude and demanding. So each time I deal with them I'm more and more ready for a confrontation. 

So the road goes both way. Each interaction between "civilians" and LE sets up stage for the next one. The difference is you can't fire a civilian for being rude and confrontation to LE. You can and should fire cops for being rude and confrontational to "civilians". 

So you learned your lesson about loud stereos. Next time you can go directly to ticket writing. But you had damn well better be polite and say sir or ma'am.


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## Jim Nash

Ben Colbert said:


> Jim,
> 
> On the other hand you have someone like me. My dad was a cop. I work in federal law enforcement. I obviously should trend to having favorable interactions with police. I have dealt with Park Police here on base more than once and each time they are short, rude and demanding. So each time I deal with them I'm more and more ready for a confrontation.
> 
> So the road goes both way. Each interaction between "civilians" and LE sets up stage for the next one. The difference is you can't fire a civilian for being rude and confrontation to LE. You can and should fire cops for being rude and confrontational to "civilians".
> 
> So you learned your lesson about loud stereos. Next time you can go directly to ticket writing. But you had damn well better be polite and say sir or ma'am.


We are talking about the same thing . You'd be firing every Police Officer eventually if you expect them to be polite everytime they deal with are jerk . Noone's that good .


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## Howard Knauf

Ben Colbert said:


> Jim,
> 
> So you learned your lesson about loud stereos. Next time you can go directly to ticket writing. But you had damn well better be polite and say sir or ma'am.



Until you write that 200 dollar school zone speeding ticket....."Have a nice day sir"....then you get called in for being sarcastic.

We could do this all night but here's an example how I usually operate....

I stop a guy for doing 60 in a 45...he ran a red light...his brake lights are out...and he doesn't have is registration and insurance on him as required. Oh, and no seatbelt.

He's a dickhead from jump street but I have more pressing matters to tend to so I politely issue him the non moving citation for the seat belt violation so I can be on my way to catch the "real" criminals joe citizen wants us to catch . I explain to him that I have enough violations to suspend his DL but I am going to note that I currently issued verbal warnings for the others. 

A month goes by and I recieve a subpeona for traffic court for this seatbelt violation. I'm thinking, WTF? Then I find out it is my lovely rolling chaos with the attitude. So I go to court (on my day off....yea, I know..I signed up for it and I got paid!). When the judge asks what officers are there on there day off, I raise my hand. He says that I can go first. I politely inform the judge that I need to amend four verbal warnings (which are documented) to traffic infractions. I tell the judge I have my citation book with me. The judge motions me to the bailiff table so I can sit and write.

I finish writing the citations out and the judge calls us up before him. I testify to ALL the violations I witnessed...and included the defendants sorry ass attitude at the time. The judge is shaking his head and when the guy states he only came to court hoping I wouldn't show and the ticket would be thrown out, the judge goes ballistic!! Cant believe he wasted the courts time and dragged an officer in on an off day, plus cost the city in which he didn't live overtime pay for me!

The judge finds him guilty on all counts. His license is gone and the fines are up near a grand all told. I silently chuckle and think to myself "No son...lets walk down and F**K em all"...:-D:-D:-D

Thats how I usually handle dickheads.

No more stories...I promise.


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## Chris McDonald

I blame it on my childhood being raised by two school teachers. 

This really does explain a lot, I feel for you now. You never had a chance :lol:


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## Mike Scheiber

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I am glad that you said that Jim, the bad things that have happened should never be brought up for something like this discussion. That is your private thing, and not some silly weight to balance a discussion in your favor.
> 
> There are many of us who bear that weight, and I hope I made it clear how I feel about bringing shit like that up. It is obvious that you are used to people rolling over on their backs for you.
> 
> For those of you that feel that behavior like this is ok, and that you should just stand their and take it, I feel shame for you.


Spreading joy and making friends along the way \\/how many trips to S Dakota ya think ya got left.:-o


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## Patrick Murray

I've been a real verbal prick with some cops over the years. Some of them deserved it. But I never crossed the line. In other words, I didn't go so far as to get arrested. 

On the other hand, I've been pulled over for speeding and running a stop sign (out in the country, I could see there were no cars anywhere near, except the cop hiding in the bushes :mrgreen. Anyway, I've been let off more than a few times by being polite, friendly, understanding and by confessing to my infraction. There were other times that strategy still yielded me a ticket. Being a total prick when they've got you dead-to-rights is a sure-fire way to get a ticket...or worse! 

The agent in question in the original story is supposed to stop contraband and bad guys, not waste time on innocents. We can sit here and conjecture but we all know (I think) that higher authorities, while understanding the frustration, etc. of the agents, would not condone their abusive behavior nor their wasting of their own time. It's possible nothing public will ever be made, but privately, I presume (and hope) that the agent is admonished, but not crucified. 

Howard, nice story on the court case. Thanks for sharing!


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## Matthew Grubb

Ben Colbert said:


> . What I'm saying that there seems to be a culture of looking down on "civilians" among law enforcement personnel.)


You are in law enforcement, your dad was an officer, and you believe this????? Wow... I feel bad for how things are where you work and how you grew up as a kid because that is NOT how it is at all.


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## David Frost

Howard's story is like that myth/legend of court room antics. After a confrontational encounter during a stop for speeding, the officer issues the ticket. In the top right hand corner the officer circled the letters, A/H.
The suspect brought a lawyer to court, during the trial, the defense lawyer asked the officer what the circled A/H on the citation meant. The officer said it meant the subject was aggressive and hostile. The lawyer said; doesn't it really mean my client is an ass hole. The officer responded, well counselor, you know your client better than I do.

DFrost


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## will fernandez

Signal Zero...by George Kirkham....puts alot of things into perspective for both sides


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: Spreading joy and making friends along the way how many trips to S Dakota ya think ya got left.

Wow, you sound really bitter and small. Big dose of jealousy as well.


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## Adam Rawlings

I just read the whole thread good stuff. 

Just about every American/Canadian boarder guard I have dealt with past and present has been a bit rigid and a boarderline dickhead. IMO why sweat it, answer the questions and get on with your day. I have never had a criminal record, but I always get pulled over and have the exterior of my truck inspected. I always remain pollite and I don't challange them with questions. Guys like the one in the audio clip may feel they have the right to question authority, but at the end of the day what do they gain? Handcuffs. 

It's just like this dumb ass who demanded a little respect from a US Customs agent and got it.
http://www.nationalpost.com/news/story.html?id=1351216


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## Jeff Oehlsen

How hard is it to say please ?? Sounds like this is not some isolated incident at all.


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## Mark Yatchak

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Maybe a different job for you. The whole resume of danger thing is cute and all, but you did sign up for it.
> 
> Maybe thats the difference between us. Well, that, and I *think* the guy asking what store at the border was a ****ing prick who should be fired.


I'll preface by saying that I am involved within this line of work and can appreciate much (not all) of what was said - both positive and negative. 

No disrespect intended Jeff, but what *you* "think" is totally irrelevant to what actual law enforcement Officers "think". 

Because you are in no way involved with law enforcement, you have absolutely no clue as to why an Officer may ask particular questions. Quite frankly, I believe you're speaking via attitude and naiveness regarding this particular subject vs any type of knowledge. 

Hindsight is easily ridiculed. We all make mistakes and can be caught off guard at times, no matter what the profession. With experience and training we hope to become better at our profession, but mistakes do and will happen. 

When dealing with this line of work, your mistake can possibly cause you to lose your job, can cause your loss of life or can cause the lives of an incomprehensible amount of people within this country. 

A Customs Officer has no clue of the intent of the *one* individual out of millions making entry into this country that present themselves via land/seaport/airport to you for inspection until questions are asked.

Believe me, you have *absolutely* no clue as to what is going on regarding "bad" people attempting to enter this country with ill intentions, nor what is happening "behind the scenes", so to speak.

It's very possible that the Officer you want fired may have saved you or a loved one from checking out early, you will never know. 

I'll give you that professionalism goes a long way, and again, mistakes do happen and sometimes employees may be better suited elsewhere (no matter the line of work). But to say this employee should be fired based on audio alone that was released by a traveler which was more than likely "cut" to his agenda is absurd.

It's probably good that your not involved with law enforcement as it appears your "opinion" is all that is needed to conclude an outcome of a given situation.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: 
No disrespect intended Jeff, but what you "think" is totally irrelevant to what actual law enforcement Officers "think". 

Which implies what ?? That people have no say when they are treated badly like this guy was ?? That I implied somewhere that I was a cop ??

I am not going to be the one that is impressed by someone who chose to do a job that has risk. Sorry, not going to happen. You chose the job, do the job, and don't treat people like crap like that guy did. Don't tell me that I will never know what goes on "behind the scenes" as that is why we hired you. Because we want you to do the job for us.

Ok, so the Canadian guy got sick of being treated like crap and recorded how he was treated. If he didn't then I guess it would be ok, right ?? What are the odds that the guy just one day out of the blue decided to record a ****ing border crossing ?? LOL Sadly, just that fact alone would make me think that he was tired of being treated badly.


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## Dave Colborn

How did he get treated like crap? What did the officer do so wrong besides talk and escalate his awareness because of something the guy did?

The officer talked to him. He didn't answer, got irrate. Everyone on this thread that thinks the officer did a bad job is wrong. That he should have let that terrorist into the US. because everyone who thinks the officer was wrong is still assuming that the guy (probably not a canadian, but with a passport from there) wanted to go shopping. What do you think terrorists say when they want to blow up a building and are stopped at the border. Awwwww. You caught me. I was coming to blow up a building and kill Americans. Nope. they say they wanna go shopping and to go **** yourself, I don't know which store my wife wanted to go to. 

A good point is that that jackass moved resources that could have been stopping a terrorist two cars back. In my opinion, hancuff, search, and leave him til it is convenient to interview him, search his car, and then be on heightened alert for his team mate behind him. But I don't assume they didn't heighten their alert. Maybe they did, and maybe they caught his counterpart.

Get back in uniform/get in uniform for a while and see what it's like. You've forgotten or never knew what it's like to be a defender of this great nation.


Everyone is quick to say post a video of the dog working so we can see the body language. No one did that here to see the officers body language or the suspected terrorist. 

This isn't about respect. It's about an 8 hour or 12 hour shift that a guy has to do a job. He did it in my opinion pretty well. Keep your mouth shut at a border so they can get the hundreds of thousands through. We are all on the team of keeping us safe....except the guy that ran his mouth at the border. Either you are for us or you are against us. He was against. The officer didn't go to his house to have dinner and piss on his Canadian flag. He came to our border and pissed on our American Flag. **** his shopping....


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## Howard Knauf

We don't HAVE to let assholes like that in our country. I don't have time for people like that. If I'm at the border and dickhead wants to play...he gets cuffed, stuffed, car dismantled, then sent back to the great white north when I'm done.....no explanation, no "thank you sir"....Have a nice day shopping at home.

Back in the early 80's md friend went to visit family in Canada. He 's from Canada and went through the proper channels to become a citizen. He drives his cherry 1972 Camaro up with his GF and the Canadian guards stop him for whatever reason. He gets his car dismantled and a rectal exam. He's told to leave when they're done and he does...with the back seat full of his car parts. He hasn't been back since.


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## Mike Scheiber

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: Spreading joy and making friends along the way how many trips to S Dakota ya think ya got left.
> 
> Wow, you sound really bitter and small. Big dose of jealousy as well.


Bitter & Small? no dark cloud following me, jelous of what my life and world is good?


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## Gerry Grimwood

Howard Knauf said:


> We don't HAVE to let assholes like that in our country. I don't have time for people like that. If I'm at the border and dickhead wants to play...he gets cuffed, stuffed, car dismantled, then sent back to the great white north when I'm done.....no explanation, no "thank you sir"....Have a nice day shopping at home.
> 
> Back in the early 80's md friend went to visit family in Canada. He 's from Canada and went through the proper channels to become a citizen. He drives his cherry 1972 Camaro up with his GF and the Canadian guards stop him for whatever reason. He gets his car dismantled and a rectal exam. He's told to leave when they're done and he does...with the back seat full of his car parts. He hasn't been back since.


Seems like those Canadian border people think just like you.


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## David Ruby

Howard Knauf said:


> We don't HAVE to let assholes like that in our country. I don't have time for people like that. If I'm at the border and dickhead wants to play...he gets cuffed, stuffed, car dismantled, then sent back to the great white north when I'm done.....no explanation, no "thank you sir"....Have a nice day shopping at home.
> 
> Back in the early 80's md friend went to visit family in Canada. He 's from Canada and went through the proper channels to become a citizen. He drives his cherry 1972 Camaro up with his GF and the Canadian guards stop him for whatever reason. He gets his car dismantled and a rectal exam. He's told to leave when they're done and he does...with the back seat full of his car parts. He hasn't been back since.


Let me ask, was there more to the story (any probable cause or anything actually done wrong by your friend), and do you feel totally cool with your friend going through this if he legitimately did nothing wrong?

-Cheers


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## Don Turnipseed

His friend was the border guard in the video David.


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## Howard Knauf

Difference was...my friend was a former canadian, young, and didn't give the guy any lip....unlike this video. If people are cool w/me, then I'm cool. If they're an ass then I can play too.

Why would I be cool with it if my friend did nothing wrong?

Years of experience has taught me that nothing's sweeter than sticking it to an ahole and still playing by the rules.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

So generally speaking what I have read so far is those that are in law enforcement are perfectly fine with the border guard, and the guy who didn't want to be treated like shit was the bad guy.

The people who are not law enforcement thought the border guard was an ass.

Then there were a percentage that just rolled over, and said stupid shit like my rights as a citizen are "earned".


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## Guest

> perfectly fine with the border guard


No. His dickheadedness is just more mitigated than you think it is.


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## susan tuck

AND some of us who are not in law enforcement think the guy with the tape recorder was an idiot spoiling for a fight. I don't want to hear any more make believe stories about what led up to the guy doing this, for all anyone here knows this guy is just another passive aggressive loser PITA jerk, because none of you were there. We can only go by what we hear, and I hear an asshole doing his best to punch the cops' buttons. I hear an argumentative jackass. His voice alone is irritating as hell. :-&


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## Matthew Grubb

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> So generally speaking what I have read so far is those that are in law enforcement are perfectly fine with the border guard, and the guy who didn't want to be treated like shit was the bad guy..


 
No… and shame on you for generalizing…. You of all people know better! I hate politics with a passion but I will preface what I am about to say that I love our Constitution and all the freedoms that come with it. I love what it stands for…. I honor all of those who have sacrificed and died for it.

That said… 
1) The guy with the tape recorder was a moron. He decided to play some sort of game with the border crossing process. 

2) The response, “Were going shopping at xyz mall” should have been enough… asking to detail what specific store they were going to is just goofy.

3) I for one don’t go for warrantless searches of people and vehicles or the hidden recording of voice without some sort of exemption. 

What bothers me about this thread is the generalizations that everyone is making. Look at some of the posts on here and take out the words COPS and CIVILIANS..... replace them with BLACK, WHITE, HISPANIC, JEW, CHRISTIAN, MUSLIM and see how silly they look. It’s about the person and not what category they “belong” to.


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## Guest

The points of contention are pretty limited

Is what the guard doing even lawful? If not, then game over. Simple.

If it is lawful, is the law and policy itself tyrannical irrespective of the invididual guard? If so, the problem isn't so much with this guy specifically. 

Irrespective of lawfulness, is the main problem his subjective "tone" of his voice and abruptness of his otherwise lawful actions and instructions?

If so, does this indicate a _trend_ of unprofessionalism on his part? Unknown. It'd be fair to know before you summarily fire him. I would think.

Has this particular Canadian run into this particular guard before? Unknown.

_But if we do want to make assumptions just because we can_, I'll say this guy has made 1,000 previous border crossings with the hope of making an audio recording of a border guard smashing the heel of a jackboot into his face, and he's never done it til now. It's not because he was sick of the harrassment, it's because he just likes to play these games....and this is the best he can do, and he's really proud of himself.

Just like I'm proud of myself right now for being a flower of light in this field of darkness.


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## Michelle Reusser

I can't believe this thread got this many posts!


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## Matthew Grubb

Michelle Kehoe said:


> I can't believe this thread got this many posts!


 
I'm sure it will hit 200!


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## Thomas Barriano

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> So generally speaking what I have read so far is those that are in law enforcement are perfectly fine with the border guard, and the guy who didn't want to be treated like shit was the bad guy.
> 
> The people who are not law enforcement thought the border guard was an ass.
> 
> Then there were a percentage that just rolled over, and said stupid shit like my rights as a citizen are "earned".


Hey Jeff 

Interesting generalization. I see it as, all the assholes on the list tend to side with the dickhead with the recorder and everyone else sides with the Border Guard just trying to do his job? LOL
Come on Jeff, he was a fukin Canadian if he doesn't like the way he was treated, he can just stay in Canada and shop at the
trading post. Just doing my part to get this topic to 200 replies


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## Christopher Jones

I just love it how all the do-gooders side with LE any and evertime they cross the line with cries of "the guy was a smart ass", "He should have just shut the **** up" , "Our police are trying to keep us all safe, we need to back them up". But the reality is that the day it happens to them they scream louder than anyone else. Its easy when its not you on the end of a tazer or a trumped up charge. This dude was arrested for ASSAULT because he pulled his arm away when they grabbed for it. 
I guess the lady deserved what she got too?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=te-xtddgL_s
Mabe she was being a smart arse? Maybe she should just not have resisted five scumbags who were ripping off her clothes and FILIMING the ****ing thing?
And of course their department came out saying they did nothing wrong. This shit was wrong when the Russians, East Germans were doing it and its wrong when we do.


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## susan tuck

Christopher Jones said:


> I just love it how all the do-gooders side with LE any and evertime they cross the line with cries of "the guy was a smart ass", "He should have just shut the **** up" , "Our police are trying to keep us all safe, we need to back them up". But the reality is that the day it happens to them they scream louder than anyone else. Its easy when its not you on the end of a tazer or a trumped up charge. This dude was arrested for ASSAULT because he pulled his arm away when they grabbed for it.
> I guess the lady deserved what she got too?
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=te-xtddgL_s
> Mabe she was being a smart arse? Maybe she should just not have resisted five scumbags who were ripping off her clothes and FILIMING the ****ing thing?
> And of course their department came out saying they did nothing wrong. This shit was wrong when the Russians, East Germans were doing it and its wrong when we do.


Oh no Christopher, I don't think the guy was just a "smart ass". I think he was one of those special brands of assholes who set out to instigate and then scream like stuck pigs as soon as they get what they were begging for in the first place.

As far as social injustice, I am right here with you, when I see what I perceive to be social injustice. I just do not think this incident at the border rises anywhere near the level of social injustice. This is just a spoiled little prick acting out.


----------



## Christopher Jones

susan tuck said:


> Oh no Christopher, I don't think the guy was just a "smart ass". I think he was one of those special brands of assholes who set out to instigate and then scream like stuck pigs as soon as they get what they were begging for in the first place.
> 
> As far as social injustice, I am right here with you, when I see what I perceive to be social injustice. I just do not think this incident at the border rises anywhere near the level of social injustice. This is just a spoiled little prick acting out.


But civil liberties are never just open to everyones interpatation. They are black and white lines drawn in concrete. The saying "If you have done nothing wrong you have nothing to worry about" was actually used by Hitler to get his people to go along with him. The real saying is "If you have done nothing wrong you should be left the **** alone".
I admit that what happens in the streets of the USA are different to someone entering the USA at a check point. But this clip showed a man and his wife happy to go shopping in the USA. A Border Guy with a god complex ask what most people on here admit was a stupid question, to which the guy replied with honesty that he didnt know exactly what shops and he didnt understand why they needed to know that. Instead of being a normal human and explain to the guy that it was a condition of entry into the USA that they answer his questions he took the attitude of "How dare you question me scumbag, out of your car, you in shit now".
It was piss weak. 
It seems to me that alot of police would be better suited to prison guards.


----------



## Craig Wood

So it is your contention that the world will improve if we all get recording devices and find people in positions of power and act like ass holes in the hopes we can push their buttons.
Actually that gig is old school and these guys are much better at it,
http://www.thejerkyboys.com/video.htm

Common courtesy is far from rolling over.




Jeff Oehlsen said:


> So generally speaking what I have read so far is those that are in law enforcement are perfectly fine with the border guard, and the guy who didn't want to be treated like shit was the bad guy.
> 
> The people who are not law enforcement thought the border guard was an ass.
> 
> Then there were a percentage that just rolled over, and said stupid shit like my rights as a citizen are "earned".





Craig Wood said:


> Jeff
> 
> I think our rights were earned.
> 
> I contend that although they were God given, our rights were earned by the blood of brave men and women willing to die for said rights.


If you took this as me thinking we earn our rights then I failed to get my point across. I was paying homage to all those who have put themselves in harms way for our right to be assholes. I do not however understand how abusing that right and recording it makes our piece of the world any better.


----------



## Dave Colborn

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> So generally speaking what I have read so far is those that are in law enforcement are perfectly fine with the border guard, and the guy who didn't want to be treated like shit was the bad guy.
> 
> The people who are not law enforcement thought the border guard was an ass.
> 
> Then there were a percentage that just rolled over, and said stupid shit like my rights as a citizen are "earned".


 
How was the guy treated like shit? Because he was questioned at the border failed to answer and appeared suspicious? Further investigation ensued and the guy threatened officers. Then he got handcuffed and became a submissive. Shame none of it was on video, that the sound track was cut and spliced. 

Three sides to every story "There is what he said, what I said, and there is what actually happened". All we have is what He Said, in the form of a spliced sound track, that to me has the officers sounding pretty reasonable until this guy gets irrate.

There was plenty of chance for this guy to de-escalate from the point of taking his keys out of the ignition to going in the building all the way up until he threatened someone, then it was too late. But no, he had to remain steadfast in his right to KNOW what was going on. His right to VOICE his opinion. The border dudes stayed nice and calm til threatened (and by the way, we didn't get to see that either)

To me it sounded as if he has a control probleml (the way he talked to his wife). 

I think that if you go somewhere, you follow their rules. TSA, Border crossing, whatever. IE if you come to the US border, you answer questions, to get to where you want to go. No matter how stupid they are. Also if a guard, clearly in charge at that same checkpoint tells you to get out, get out, sit down, and shut up like he tells you to. It is his checkpoint, and no matter how much you want to be a cop, or work in the same building as cops, drove past a cop, have a cop as a neighbor, policed the world, whatever; you don't have a radio and know the current situation. 

Lets narrow this down to how the guy was treated like shit. Can anyone answer that for me on the way to 200 posts? Make me believe that with the information we have, beyond a reasonable doubt, that the canadian fella was treated like shit. No one has done so, so far. Or come close.


----------



## Randy Allen

If the boarder guard wanted to be a real ass**** he would have left the guys car in pieces small enough to need a shovel to pick up. He has every right to do just that.

The erstwhile tourist has exactly no rights afforded American citizens. His rights are; answer any questions we ask inane or not. Alternatively, turn around and go back home.

Anyones options become very limited if one chooses to screw around with the boarder police while crossing into a foriegn country.


----------



## Ben Colbert

Dave Colborn said:


> Also if a guard, clearly in charge at that same checkpoint tells you to get out, get out, sit down, and shut up like he tells you to. It is his checkpoint



Screw off. 

It is not his checkpoint. It is our checkpoint. He's nothing but a representative of the government and he carried himself like a jerk. He asked a stupid question, got a stupid answer, and instead of taking a deep breath and deescalated he mad sure he asserted his authority.

Just because someone has a badge and a gun doesn't mean they get to act like an a-hole. it also doesn't mean we have to roll over and take it and we shouldn't be afraid of being arrested for telling a cop he's acting like an ass.


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## Christopher Jones

Randy Allen said:


> The erstwhile tourist has exactly no rights afforded American citizens. His rights are; answer any questions we ask inane or not. Alternatively, turn around and go back home.


Exactly. And if the Border Guard was professional he would have told him exactly that. But he didnt, he wanted to prove how tough he was. Oh well, now hes famous.


----------



## Ben Colbert

Randy Allen said:


> The erstwhile tourist has exactly no rights afforded American citizens.


False. But nice attempt.


----------



## Jim Nash

Steven Lepic said:


> The points of contention are pretty limited
> 
> Is what the guard doing even lawful? If not, then game over. Simple.
> 
> If it is lawful, is the law and policy itself tyrannical irrespective of the invididual guard? If so, the problem isn't so much with this guy specifically.
> 
> Irrespective of lawfulness, is the main problem his subjective "tone" of his voice and abruptness of his otherwise lawful actions and instructions?
> 
> If so, does this indicate a _trend_ of unprofessionalism on his part? Unknown. It'd be fair to know before you summarily fire him. I would think.
> 
> Has this particular Canadian run into this particular guard before? Unknown.
> 
> _But if we do want to make assumptions just because we can_, I'll say this guy has made 1,000 previous border crossings with the hope of making an audio recording of a border guard smashing the heel of a jackboot into his face, and he's never done it til now. It's not because he was sick of the harrassment, it's because he just likes to play these games....and this is the best he can do, and he's really proud of himself.
> 
> Just like I'm proud of myself right now for being a flower of light in this field of darkness.




Steven ,

I've been trying to figure how to say what you said in the first half of your post and I couldn't do it . My feelings exactly . 

I'd also like to add I feel it's then up to the person who felt they have been violated to figure out what is the best way to go about changing things . 

Is it to strongly and/or physically resist and possibly get arrested starting criminal and if they choose civil court proceedings along with internal affairs proceedings also ?

Or if you still want to enter 

Is it to voice your objections in a civil manner , let the BPO/LE continue to be an asshole and start internal and/or civil court proceedings ?

I know it's the philosophy of some to resist strongly while dealing with LE if they feel they are being violated . That's their choice . For me if this is the case doing it with the law enforcement officers in those singular incidents is the wrong way to go and has been done buy many already (knowingly or unknowingly) and has been very unsuccessful , to object to and change what they perseve as wrong . IMO , change using that philosophy must come on a bigger scale , not on a sigular incident but buy changing the whole system all together . 

Right now in our time in this country I can just tell you from what I've seen is those who choose to take the most resistive route usually don't get too far in any of the court proceedings . Yes , LE is held to a higher standard but the actions of the civilian often makes the case of whose really the most at wrong more difficult and they usually don't get the outcome they believe they deserve .

The tourist did have other options then the one he choose . He could have in a civil manner voiced his objections to the questioning and detainment and chose not to enter the country . He could of then filed a complaint with the agency along with pursueing other legal avenues . 

He also could have in a civil manner voiced his objection to the process , clarified with the BPO what was required of him to gain enterance , gone along with what he was told and then filed a complaint with the agency and pursued other legal avenues . 

In either way he had a tape of what was said to help determine if the BPO was being honest about or had the legal right to require the tourist to do what he did to gain entry . Either way the whole incident wasn't muddy buy the tourist and the only asshole on the tape was the BPO (if he indeed was) . 

This guy chose to go the more resistive route , not only that HE was the one on the tape who chose to start off the exchange in a negative manner . I know LE is held to a higher standard but civilians are held to a standard also morally and legally . If he wanted to expose (what he felt was wrong) there were better ways to do it . Being an asshole because you feel the officer was being an asshole hasn't worked too well in changing things and more often then not makes things worse down the line in regards to civilian and LEs' behaviors .


----------



## Dave Colborn

Ben Colbert said:


> Screw off.
> 
> It is not his checkpoint. It is our checkpoint. He's nothing but a representative of the government and he carried himself like a jerk. He asked a stupid question, got a stupid answer, and instead of taking a deep breath and deescalated he mad sure he asserted his authority.
> 
> Just because someone has a badge and a gun doesn't mean they get to act like an a-hole. it also doesn't mean we have to roll over and take it and we shouldn't be afraid of being arrested for telling a cop he's acting like an ass.


So you can't articulate how the guy was treated like shit. Still on the way to 200 and nary a clue as to how it got this far or why anyone would think what that Canadian Fella did was right. I appreciate your opinion, but I don't agree with it, and it is his checkpoint. Manned by him, for us, keeping us safe. Still don't see a problem with what he did. Did the canadian have an expired tag? Leaky package in the back seat for George bush with wires hanging out?? Half a story Ben. And thanks for telling me screw off. Good to know that I got under your skin with my OPINION!!!


----------



## Christopher Jones

Ben Colbert said:


> False. But nice attempt.


Once he is in the States yes he is. But as a condition of entry you have to agree to put up with the shit, or you can choose not to enter. Its almost a contract of sorts. 
If the border guard had of given the man the option of not answering the questions and letting him go back I wouldnt have too big an issue with it. Sure, it might make people think twice about going to the USA, but at least you dont have the knuckle head ordering him out of car trying to prove who was more powerful.


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## Ben Colbert

You got under my skin because you are a sheep. I bet you roll right over for anything wearing a badge.


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## Dave Colborn

Ben Colbert said:


> You got under my skin because you are a sheep. I bet you roll right over for anything wearing a badge.


What do you think of yourself as, Ben? The wolf? The lone wolf? Fighting for justice and equality? Make me understand why what the Border Guard did was wrong. Articulate it. Use your words...

And bets like that won't win in Vegas, Ben. Unless she's a hottie-cop. Then I'll roll!!! I do tend to do the right thing and if I am wrong I take what I get. Don't think I have really had anything undeservedly happen to me in my life. That could just be my Catholic guilt speaking though.

So, Ben, why was the guy treated like shit by the border guard?


----------



## Randy Allen

As a generalization, you're right foriegn nationals are granted some rights while in our country.
However, there is no Bill of Rights that apply to them and many of the constitutional rights we take for granted as citizens are out of their reach forever until citizenship is gained.

The boarder of any country is more like a no-mans land. Don't give the guard any shit.


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## Howard Knauf

So Chris...lets question every authority figure, at the time things are happening, just because you don't understand? Am I following you? And if you don't like the answer, it's OK to be an asshole? Correct so far? No matter who it puts in danger...OK?

And...lets assume the ignorant (uninformed) asshole who has no idea whats going on but wants to be an asshole because he has that god given right, won't sue if said asshole gets hurt or killed because of his assholiness. After all, the citizen trumps any authority who may have privileged information at the time certain things are happening that Joe citizen just doesn't want to deal with...even if there's danger. Gotta question that authority ya know! How dare you stop me or detour me! I demand an answer right now! I demand you explain to me individually whats going on!

I'm not talking about this incident...I'm talking about ALL incidents (as per your line of thinking), even those where the ignorant citizen is on a crash course for danger but just can't seem to calmly figure out why they have to take a different route cause it might inconvenience them a minute or two. Like the asshole who didn't want to drive two blocks out of his way to get home after a severe hurricane. Dumbass needed to stay inside but, nooooo he had to go sight seeing. How dare I stop him from running over that live 100,000 volt power line across the road. How dare I?!

When the police were tasked to save idiots from themselves, this is what you get. It's not just about cops and citizens...it's the whole damn insurance company and ambulance chasing lawyer thing that has pussified this country. Too bad Darwin wasn't re-tasked with taking care of these fools instead of the police.

I'm not pissed at you...just pissed in general. I am a huge civil rights fan. I do my job and try my damndest to not violate anyone's rights because A) It's illegal, and B) I enjoy those same rights myself and it pisses me off that certain factions in this country erode the hell out of the good ones, and try to create bullshit ones!!

If anyone has a frickin question about whats going on, and you're not being tortured or in fear for your life from authority...take a frickin chill pill and work it out later. It's pretty damn simple.

I don't question why brain surgeons do things...so if you/anyone have a question why we do things then take a criminal justice class or speak to a commanding officer later and figure it out for yourself. Don't be a dick to the grunt just to be a dick. And if you decide to be a dick...ya better know the rules.

BTW....posting that jail video is no way comparable to what this thread is about. I'm not defending the officers in that video because I don't know the facts. As a citizen it apalled, as a cop I understand why some things are done but I don't know this story. And getting facts from the media is about as good as getting milk from a bull. They NEVER get it right, even when handed a TYPEWRITTEN press release! Morons! And weren't they soooo proud to be the FIRST and ONLY news station to air this woman's humiliation?!!! Peices of shit.


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## Candy Eggert

I was going to stay out of this but since we're trying to hit 200 posts, thought I might contribute a little something.

Standard disclaimer applies ;-)~ I’m going to take a guess here that most questions asked by LE and maybe even BPO are by design. Not so much for the “standard” answers, right or wrong, multiple choice but rather as a assessment tool. One of many!
 I’ve been asked some pretty repetitive, perhaps even invasive depending on your point of view, questions by Border Agents in a foreign country. You know the ones standing there with AR 15’s while they look right through you as they ask you questions and toss your luggage. Somehow the thought of being a smartass never crossed my mind ;-) 
At least this week, we are allowed the freedom of choice, to speak up and speak our minds in the USA. But with that comes responsibility for what you say and do. As I told my son when little…you can do the right thing or the wrong thing but the accountability and responsibility for your actions is YOURS! You own it. 
Last year my son spent some time in Saudi Arabia for work. Now there’s a democratic country..not! Every Friday they have “Chop Block” square and encourage all people, especially foreigners to watch their brand of justice!! No whining about their civil rights! No appeals process either! And again, somehow the thought of being a smart ass probably didn’t cross their minds either.
Most people have jobs to do and bad days that go along with that. Cops and BPO’s are more under the microscope of public scrutiny and pressure that goes along with doing their job well. While I sincerely doubt a “mall shopper” is a serious threat to security, but let that be the one person who gets through that proverbial wall that means to harm us or the public safety and all hell breaks loose!!


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## James Lechernich

Just listened to the clip. I'm not exactly sure what rights are afforded to foreign tourists, but as an American I see no problem with people voicing their opinions a/o taking action against perceived threats to civil liberties. Youtube is chock full of similar videos that raise questions. Are they always sincere? No. In some instances they're financially motivated by a now litigious and overtly PC society. Yet in others they highlight abuses of power and a chipping away of freedom that would otherwise continue unabated due to public ignorance. In the long run though, I think they help keep things in check by raising awareness and stimulating debate. 

However, as much as I wish there were video to put the "assault" in context, my opinion is that the Canadian guy did a poor job of getting his point across. You want to fight back against injustice, win people to your cause, and even piss off LE for sport in the process? Have the facts/law on your side and remain calm, cool, and collected. Even if you're intimated, threatened, or eventually arrested on bullshit charges, the case law(s) help set new precedents so things like that don't happen again. That's how a free and democratic system works. But as demonstrated here, when you act like a douchebag asshole with a shaky understanding of the law, people's first instinct will most likely be to side against you because they don't/can't fully trust your position as valid and reasonable. 

Having said that, I think it's a sad day indeed when an American says our rights are earned, not given to us. Ever hear of a thing called the Declaration of Independence?

_"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, *that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights*, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security."_

Also, as a person with a great deal of respect for people in law enforcement, I have to say that that respect is drawn largely from the fact that I, and others, hold LE(and public servants in general) to a higher standard of conduct than that of the private citizenry, because we grant you the authority to speak for us and act on our behalf. Therefore, human(fallible) like us or not, I expect your level of professionalism to withstand the bullshit and danger you have to deal with on a daily basis. One video I find myself returning to over and over again whenever these kinds of incidents come to light is this one, because I think if any cop ever had a reason to take his frustrations out on anyone, it would be this guy. Yet as you can see, the cop demonstrates the highest level of professionalism: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GHZMoPV1rog. That's the type of cop people respect and trust, and he could certainly teach the border patrolmen involved here a thing or two about professionalism and public relations, imo.


----------



## James Lechernich

As well, I think we'd all be well served to remember the wise words of one Mr. Patrick Swayze from time to time:










http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ojPVOhHhwnk


Be Nice.


----------



## Ben Colbert

Randy Allen said:


> However, there is no Bill of Rights that apply to them


This absolutely and unequivocally false. The Bill of Rights in the US Constitution does apply to foreign nationals that re in our country. Foreign nationals have a right to free speech, free press, are free from self incrimination etc.


----------



## Guest

James Lechernich said:


> Also, as a person with a great deal of respect for people in law enforcement, I have to say that that respect is drawn largely from the fact that I, and others, hold LE(and public servants in general) to a higher standard of conduct than that of the private citizenry, because we grant you the authority to speak for us and act on our behalf. Therefore, human(fallible) like us or not, I expect your level of professionalism to withstand the bullshit and danger you have to deal with on a daily basis. One video I find myself returning to over and over again whenever these kinds of incidents come to light is this one, because I think if any cop ever had a reason to take his frustrations out on anyone, it would be this guy. Yet as you can see, the cop demonstrates the highest level of professionalism: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GHZMoPV1rog. That's the type of cop people respect and trust, and he could certainly teach the border patrolmen involved here a thing or two about professionalism and public relations, imo.


James,

You know what's funny about that? That trooper was fired for taking sexual bribes. He, in fact, also got in trouble for selectively running his in-car camera. The truth is that he intentionally fired that guy up before hand...but neglected to film that part of it.

Woops!


----------



## James Lechernich

Steven Lepic said:


> James,
> 
> You know what's funny about that? That trooper was fired for taking sexual bribes. He, in fact, also got in trouble for selectively running his in-car camera. The trut is that he intentionally fired that guy up before hand.


----------



## Randy Allen

Ben,
Perhaps........they do, if we allow it. However it is not their right per se. 

Further whatever rights aliens do have, do not apply until they cross our boarder.
That's why the guard is there.


----------



## Thomas Barriano

Matthew Grubb said:


> I'm sure it will hit 200!


Looks like 202 and counting. Can we thread lock this thing yet?


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## James Lechernich

Steven Lepic said:


> Woops!


Yeah, I'd say that sucks for him, his department, and me, since it severely pwned my anecdote! #-o


Nevertheless, do you by chance know how he was caught? Was it internal or did a citizen take it upon themselves to speak up? Either way I'd like to think that it proves the system works. It'd definitely make me feel better. lol


----------



## Jim Nash

James stated: 

" However, as much as I wish there were video to put the "assault" in context, my opinion is that the Canadian guy did a poor job of getting his point across. You want to fight back against injustice, win people to your cause, and even piss off LE for sport in the process? Have the facts/law on your side and remain calm, cool, and collected. Even if you're intimated, threatened, or eventually arrested on bullshit charges, the case law(s) help set new precedents so things like that don't happen again. That's how a free and democratic system works. But as demonstrated here, when you act like a douchebag asshole with a shaky understanding of the law, people's first instinct will most likely be to side against you because they don't/can't fully trust your position as valid and reasonable. " .

Totally agree .


James stated ;

" Also, as a person with a great deal of respect for people in law enforcement, I have to say that that respect is drawn largely from the fact that I, and others, hold LE(and public servants in general) to a higher standard of conduct than that of the private citizenry, because we grant you the authority to speak for us and act on our behalf. Therefore, human(fallible) like us or not, I expect your level of professionalism to withstand the bullshit and danger you have to deal with on a daily basis. One video I find myself returning to over and over again whenever these kinds of incidents come to light is this one, because I think if any cop ever had a reason to take his frustrations out on anyone, it would be this guy. Yet as you can see, the cop demonstrates the highest level of professionalism: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GHZMoPV1rog. That's the type of cop people respect and trust, and he could certainly teach the border patrolmen involved here a thing or two about professionalism and public relations, imo. "


Once again it also comes down to one's perceptions of why that Officer is behaving a certain way without knowing his intentions . I have gotten into discussions about this video also . I have spoken to many people who found this Officer you respect , condescending , patronizing and overly authoritarian . 

People see what they want to see without knowing what the Officer is actually trying to accomplish . Is his tone an attempt to communicate patience to the driver and calm him down or just an attempt to piss the guy of further ? 

Like the audio and subject of this discussion , in your video people perceive this officer's actions in many different ways .


----------



## Jim Nash

Sorry I type too slow and see Steve once again says things better then me .


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: Hey Jeff 

Hey Thomas !

I don't understand all the nambies out there counting posts and asking the thread to be locked. What is the problem with this discussion ?? Why is anyone wanting it to be locked ?? No one is having a fit, not that that matters, as sometimes some pretty funny stuff comes out of a fit.

There are no hate fueled posts here, and most are pretty well thought out. It also identifies people that will tow the line, no matter how bad the abuse could be. LOL

We all make generalizations, but this one incident has mad many of us think of other things that we feel are way over the line. I do not like how this country is turning in a lot of ways. The politicians are not listening to us.

In my home town, they are tearing down the old grain elevator, which has stood since the mid 1800's and is still in great condition. It is the landmark that we all know our town by. 

My home town gets by with grants from the state. Otherwise it would fall. So in a monumental moment of idiocy, they are spending money tearing down a landmark. Screw the fact that the town is broke, but this, like the issue of the border guard overstepping his power, all adds up. I get sick of people defending stupid shit.

I goof on things all the time. Like the fact that I am the king of nara, but a rule was broken, and there were posts saying that I was the bad guy for pointing it out. That is the kind of shit that destroys.


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## Thomas Barriano

Jeff,

This is the Working DOG Forum where political discussions aren't supposed to be allowed. Two Hundred posts on this topic are a waste of bandwidth IMHO but carry on if you want.
I skimmed through most of the replies anyway.




Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: Hey Jeff
> 
> Hey Thomas !
> 
> I don't understand all the nambies out there counting posts and asking the thread to be locked. What is the problem with this discussion ?? Why is anyone wanting it to be locked ?? No one is having a fit, not that that matters, as sometimes some pretty funny stuff comes out of a fit.
> 
> There are no hate fueled posts here, and most are pretty well thought out. It also identifies people that will tow the line, no matter how bad the abuse could be. LOL
> 
> We all make generalizations, but this one incident has mad many of us think of other things that we feel are way over the line. I do not like how this country is turning in a lot of ways. The politicians are not listening to us.
> 
> In my home town, they are tearing down the old grain elevator, which has stood since the mid 1800's and is still in great condition. It is the landmark that we all know our town by.
> 
> My home town gets by with grants from the state. Otherwise it would fall. So in a monumental moment of idiocy, they are spending money tearing down a landmark. Screw the fact that the town is broke, but this, like the issue of the border guard overstepping his power, all adds up. I get sick of people defending stupid shit.
> 
> I goof on things all the time. Like the fact that I am the king of nara, but a rule was broken, and there were posts saying that I was the bad guy for pointing it out. That is the kind of shit that destroys.


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## Dwyras Brown

Its always easier to Monday morning quarterback than to get on the field. Lots of people bitch about the way LE does its job, god forbid they not do things the way "You" want it. Everyone wants to enjoy their freedom, but noone wants to pay the price for that freedom. 

If the agent caves in and says go on your way, why should he say the same for every one. Why even have them there. Why not put up a sign that says, "Bring me your tired, your terrorists, your rapists and killers. We don't care why you are coming here, just come." I know the second a sign goes up at the border like, that everyone will have a hissy fit once something happens. 

Everyone forgets events like 911 and want preventive measures to return to the way things were before then. But as soon as we do, and the next event happens, lots of the whiners ask why we let it happen.

People like to think that it is an easy job protecting other, but its not. Jeff plays the devil's advocate a lot,but Jeff is proud of being a Marine. If Jeff believed what he says, why is he proud of his Marine service. His job in the military was to protect the American citizens, just like the Border agents job is. Sometimnes you have to be what sheep think is a jerk to get the job done, especially when you are dealing with someone who thinks that you are there to play with. I believe the "shopper" was there to entertain himself at the border agents expense. But so is any terrorist that wants to come here and do us harm.


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## Randy Allen

Without getting into who was the biggest jerk in this incident, I think I see where the confusion is in this thread.
Some are talking about LE issues involving us perhaps personally and fellow citizens of the United States, while some are talking about the citizen of another country (no matter how close that may be) wanting entry, for whatever reason, into this country.

I'm not really sure any country's boarder guard job description says anything about playing traffic cop and waving a welcome flag.


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## Candy Eggert

Just one example of another countries entry requirements: :-\"

http://www.immi.gov.au/allforms/character-requirements/#b

Now granted people don't just pop over to Oz to go mall shopping but somehow I don't think the rules over there are negotiable :-\" Wonder how full Casurina Prison is?!

It's always interesting to me when non-citizens criticize other countries for what they perceive as a violation of someone's "civil rights". Is that in f'ing handbook somewhere?! You know like Felipe Calderon telling America what to do when he can't clean up his own country!!


----------



## Adam Rawlings

Candy Eggert said:


> Just one example of another countries entry requirements: :-\"
> 
> http://www.immi.gov.au/allforms/character-requirements/#b
> 
> Now granted people don't just pop over to Oz to go mall shopping but somehow I don't think the rules over there are negotiable :-\" Wonder how full Casurina Prison is?!
> 
> It's always interesting to me when non-citizens criticize other countries for what they perceive as a violation of someone's "civil rights". Is that in f'ing handbook somewhere?! You know like Felipe Calderon telling America what to do when he can't clean up his own country!!


Candy,

Those requirements are for citizenship and visa's, not travellers.


----------



## Candy Eggert

Adam Rawlings said:


> Candy,
> 
> Those requirements are for citizenship and visa's, not travellers.


From what I understand you can't enter Austriala without a visa....so it applies.


----------



## Adam Rawlings

Candy Eggert said:


> From what I understand you can't enter Austriala without a visa....so it applies.


Please have a closer look and you will see the requirements for a tourist visa.


----------



## Candy Eggert

Adam Rawlings said:


> Please have a closer look and you will see the requirements for a tourist visa.


http://www.immi.gov.au/visitors/tourist/976/obligations.htm

Is this it Adam? Tourist visa?


----------



## Adam Rawlings

Candy Eggert said:


> http://www.immi.gov.au/visitors/tourist/976/obligations.htm
> 
> Is this it Adam? Tourist visa?


Yes, notice the difference?


----------



## Christopher Jones

Candy, alot of people look to America, as what happens there will eventually happen here. 
Its not that we poke fun or critisize, its that when rights and liberties are taken away from you guys they will be taken away from other western countries. We had a debate on the radio about Australia getting a "bill of rights" just like you guys have. One of the major arguments of the politicans who didnt want one was to compare the civil liberties violtions of the US even when they have a Bill of rights. Thats not good Candy. So yeah we look to the USA, and yeah we watch how Tazers have gone from a alternative to shooting someone with a gun to now being used for "Pain Compliance", ie TORTURE. If you dont sign your speeding ticket, you get Tazered until you do. You refuse to give a urine sample at the hospital, you get tazered until you do. You argue with a cop, you get tazered. Police in the USA tazer 10 year old unarmed girls now.
So I have no doubt that things here will head down the same path and our politicans and police will use the USA as the example of why they should.


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: If Jeff believed what he says, why is he proud of his Marine service. His job in the military was to protect the American citizens, just like the Border agents job is.

Proud may not be the word to describe my service, glad I made it back would be a bit closer. : ) Creative idiocy was helpful, back then. Never was a dick, hated the mp's to the point of violence. Probably some of the baggage that makes me respond to tools like this guy. Back then, you could not walk onto base. Someone had to drive you past the guard shack, then drop you off thirty yards or some shit like that. High and tights, bad attitudes and proper id should have been enough, but nope, they had to be dicks about it. In the beginning, I stood there like an idiot for hours waiting for someone to give me a ride for thirty yards. Lost it once, and started walking, and the guy pulled his 45 on me. Things like that kinda stand out in my mind. 

I couldn't stop laughing at the guy, couldn't believe he would even consider doing something as goofy as that. I told him to shoot me, and kept walking. About a mile later, they tried to put me in a jeep. That was an interesting night. I don't think they had a good enough PT program. : )


----------



## Dwyras Brown

Jeff, I still believe that if you didn't believe in what you were doing you would have taken a dishonorable discharge and would never mention your time in the Marines.


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen

Well I believed in what I was doing, to a point. I believe in the Marines.


----------



## Guest

> If you dont sign your speeding ticket, you get Tazered until you do. You refuse to give a urine sample at the hospital, you get tazered until you do. You argue with a cop, you get tazered. Police in the USA tazer 10 year old unarmed girls now.


Chris, I know your brohan is a copper, and I know you enjoy playing on the fringes of LE like so many other people who want the fun stuff (k9 doggies, sweet tactical gear etc) without the headaches, but this is very misleading.

You are being implicitly dishonest at best (or possibly truly, truly ignorant) and I'm pretty sure you know it.

If you refuse to cease being this way, I'm going to have to taser you.


----------



## Christopher Jones

Steven Lepic said:


> Chris, I know your brohan is a copper, and I know you enjoy playing on the fringes of LE like so many other people who want the fun stuff (k9 doggies, sweet tactical gear etc) without the headaches, but this is very misleading.
> 
> You are being implicitly dishonest at best (or possibly truly, truly ignorant) and I'm pretty sure you know it.
> 
> If you refuse to cease being this way, I'm going to have to taser you.


You think I have LE fantasies....maybe a little dress up on weekends? Hang out the front of donut shops? lol


10 year old girls being tazered by tough hero cops.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...gun-to-subdue-10-year-old-girl-suspended.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dHM8_N76vr4

Tazered until urnine sample given
http://www.amnestyusa.org/document.php?id=engamr510302006http://www.rense.com/general63/maninhospitalbedtasered.htm

Tazered for not signing speeding ticket
http://www.shortnews.com/start.cfm?id=79072
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x3l5p3_utah-police-taser-driver-who-won-t_news

Police tazer autistic man for arguing
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=939_1211195791&c=1

Pain compliance
The UCLA PD policy in effect at the time of the incident calls the Taser a "less lethal device" and says that "although not absolutely prohibited, officers should give additional consideration to the unique circumstances involved prior to applying the Taser to ... Individuals who are handcuffed or otherwise restrained" (4C). According to the policy, the "Drive Stun" capacity is appropriate "to eliminate physical resistance from an arrestee in accomplishing an arrest or physical search" (6A) as well as "pain compliance against passive resistors"


----------



## Chris McDonald

I thought this thread would go away a long time ago. I have crossed the border here a number of times. Many of the times with 1-2-3 K9s on board. And a few times without dogs, my kids love the tourist trap of Niagara Falls, it’s actually a great fairly priced 3 day family weekend. 
I take any border crossings as a fairly serious thing and actually look forward to the questioning process. I took a few body language classes and love to have the conversation. Having a US passport I noted that I get my balls busted more by the Canada guys that the US guys. especially when I am by myself and its midnight. Most people think your F-N nuts to drive 7 hours and the purpose of your trip be “dog training”…. “Can’t you do that at pet smart?”……. “Can you please pull your truck right over there and shut it off and steep out?” 
Then the “real dog training” begins for me, several things that queue dogs up begin. Me getting spoken to by a few guys like bad acting in a bite work scenario, there vest making for a great bite suit look and the smell of black powder everywhere. The last thing I need to do is raise my voice and have someone get in my face. But once I take the dogs out I think they get a clear picture of why we aren’t signed up for a pet smart class and all is good. 

 I have been asked some of the stupidest questions that can come out of someone’s mouth. The reality here is there not looking at what your actual words are as you give them the answer as much as they are looking to see if you got a bead of sweet building on your forehead and stupid questions are more likely to get someone frazzled than a smart question because they are more likely to have not rehearsed the answer in their heads. Onetime I had a my DS and a GS, the guy was asking me all sorts of retarted dog questions using a tone of voice as if he knew the real answers even though it was clear he had no idea. I got to admit when he asked me what type of dog is bigger a DS or a GS I stuttered a bit. My initial answer was a GS but I have been around dogs when the there were several DS larger than the GS. So after a few uh..eh, I came up with “typically the GS” sir, but it can vary.”
In all fairness to the guard in this recording and the question about “what store” ya it’s a stupid question but its got to be a bit challenging to come up with questions all day. If he would have just said “I don’t know we are just going to walk the mall” all would have been fine. To me the way he handled himself was justification to ask him to “pull right over there” to get a better look. 
With me crossing with K9s I think the big concern is that I am a broker and they think I am selling dogs and not paying someone’s taxes. If I really wanted to sneak something across either way I would do it under the ninja cover of a minivan with screaming kids on board. 
That all being said I don’t think the main problem us citizens have with low level authority figures is the person individually or what they are doing. I like many (and growing) hate my government as a whole and the stereotype person who is attracted to working or being involved with the government. Unfortunately when you guys are doing your job you are the gov. But even taking that into consideration there are a lot of great grunts out there and its not right for me to take it out on the grunt. Most of the time he is just doing what his job description is and trying to pay his bills. Every time I meet someone who is in LE or a gov employee and is a good hard working guy (about one out of every dozen or so) it does make me feel better, but it just don’t happen enough and it’s only getting worse. I think guys like Howard and Jim are good examples simply because they care enough about their job to waste their time on this chat room and try to read a bit about. But then when I read on here that a cop can’t really comment on something because he is at work and cant view the video I have to roll my eyes and think to myself if he is at work on tax payer time what is he even cruising some *** dog chat room for? But I already know the answer “I was on my break”.... Ya right! 
:-D


----------



## Guest

Chris J,

Question: What exactly did you think I was contending? 

You seem to have answered a question I never asked.

So let's clear that up.

:?:


----------



## Don Turnipseed

I wasn't going to say anymore on this thread but some things are very apparent. 

First, in LE eyes, the Candaian became a real ashole and was just looking for a confrontation because he pulled a tape recorder out. The probability is he has been down this road before with LE and decided he needed some backup in case it happened again. You don't have to be into rocket science to figure out why LE hates recorders and onlookers videoing what the police are doing. So that is a given.

Another thing that is obvious is the condescending way LE begrudgingly admits that "Yes, there are a few bad apples". I would make a conservative estimate it is about 50% and that 50% does not constitute a few bad apples. Lets face it guys, it takes a personality type to want to deal with this shit day in and day out and that in itself is why the profession empolys their own shrinks.

And then there are the number of laws that have had to be passed as the years go by to protect the citizenry from their protectors. Profiling is one. I got pulled to the curb a lont when I was young because of profiling. I fit what they wanted to see. It is a great tool also but it was, abused....thus then laws which are not worth spit because they just make up another reason for pulling you over.

I used to go and visit my first wife in S Cal while she was on retreat at Frontera. I have seen LE from top to bottom and all,phases.. Out of all phases, the CHP is the epitamy of professional. They are like clones of each other. If they can be that professional, it is hard to buy the fact that BOP can't also.


----------



## Christopher Jones

Steven Lepic said:


> Chris J,
> 
> Question: What exactly did you think I was contending?
> 
> You seem to have answered a question I never asked.
> 
> So let's clear that up.
> 
> :?:


I wasnt sure what you were contending so I just threw up some random shit to cover all bases :wink:


----------



## Howard Knauf

Chris McDonald said:


> I thought this thread would go away a long time ago. I have crossed the border here a number of times. Many of the times with 1-2-3 K9s on board. .................... But then when I read on here that a cop can’t really comment on something because he is at work and cant view the video I have to roll my eyes and think to myself if he is at work on tax payer time what is he even cruising some *** dog chat room for? But I already know the answer “I was on my break”.... Ya right!
> :-D


 Well, I thought someone finally gets it. Then you make your last comment which is somewhat ignorant.

I'm a K9 instructor with my agency. I have authorization, and responsibility to add to my continual training and education while on duty. Being a part of, and participating on, a K9 discussion forum while at work is part of that training....just like when I'm on the internet perusing Terry Fleck's site, or staying on top of the latest ways dope is smuggled or explosives are used; or the way training is constantly changing.

Our K9 SOP requires that anyone involved in the unit train ON DUTY to ensure the dogs are prepared for service. The admin knows that a silly 5 hours a week isn't going to do it so it is POLICY to be proactive in the training and maintenance of our dogs. As an instructor, why wouldn't I be on this site on duty when I have some down time?

Throwing jabs at us without thinking about it first is why cops can be dicks. If this place in has no educational value, and is for ****...why are you here?


----------



## Don Turnipseed

Howard said'


> Throwing jabs without thinking about it first is why cops can be dicks. Just sayin.


Aw Howard, quit making excuses for poor behavior. It is the nature of the beast and why most become LE. Doesn't make them bad cops, just assholes a lot of the time. How many guys would want a job dealing with assholes day in and day out if they weren't one. I have known a lot of LE, beleive me, most are assholes on or off the job.


----------



## Chris McDonald

Howard, No need to explain yourself to my looser ass, I know your sharper than typing something like that and not being able to do what you were doing. I agree with almost everything you say, my sarcastic point is you guys (the individual) just can’t win (didn’t you see the yellow head?). Not necessarily because the individual is bad but because you are in most of our civilian eyes part of “them” and not part of “us”. At least that’s how I see it for the typical non scumbag normal American. Of course the scumbag sees it differently. When I roll up to a cop who directs me a different way I smile and wave and move on. But when someone gives you an attitude its not directed at you directly, it could be that person just had to work with the local P.O.S building inspector or something. When you telling them not to roll forward over the electric line they just see the building inspector. We civilians just put all you guys in one category. Unfortunately it’s only going to get worse for you guys as we learn to hate our government more and more. 
I bust with my LE friends and ask them when there in there riot gear because the “people” are protesting there 60% taxes and there given the order to fire into the crowd whose side you gona be on? And you know what? It crossed everyone of their minds in the recent past before I asked.


----------



## Chris McDonald

Throwing jabs at us without thinking about it first is why cops can be dicks. If this place in has no educational value, and is for ****...why are you here?[/quote]

Ill say it again I’m impressed by any K9 LE that is on here trying to better themselves. Any chat room is a *** chat room, there is no way around it ;-)


----------



## Howard Knauf

Don Turnipseed said:


> Howard said'
> 
> 
> Aw Howard, quit making excuses for poor behavior. It is the nature of the beast and why most become LE. Doesn't make them bad cops, just assholes a lot of the time. How many guys would want a job dealing with assholes day in and day out if they weren't one. I have known a lot of LE, beleive me, most are assholes on or off the job.


 I'm not making excuses. I'm giving you a reason. When I see a cop being a dick for no reason, I cringe because I know later it's going to be a problem for me next time I deal with this guy. But if a guy's going to be a dick for no reason....well, I'll say it again....ya better know the rules cause I can f you over, be nice about it...and be totally above board.

Most cops I know have little to do with civilians even off duty. That's just the way it is. Most don't want anyone to know they're cops. Most just want to download from work and recharge for the next day. Their circle of friends is small. They don't want to talk about cop stuff off duty. They don't want ther neighbors bothering them over petty bullshit when their doing their lawn work. Get it? Bother me off duty when I'm with my family and I'm going to be the biggest dick I can without getting myself into too much trouble. I didn't ask you to come to my house and bother me.

I knew I would have to deal with assholes in this job. I was just not ready for the mass amounts of them. I grew up being respectful and always knew there were dickheads around. Even at an older age I was surprised. Once again...I shoulda been a fireman.


----------



## Howard Knauf

Chris McDonald said:


> I bust with my LE friends and ask them when there in there riot gear because the “people” are protesting there 60% taxes and there given the order to fire into the crowd whose side you gona be on? And you know what? It crossed everyone of their minds in the recent past before I asked.


 I think about it all the time. I'm a huge fan of the 2nd amendment...no matter what the "Association of Chiefs of Police" have to say about what cops think about private gun ownership. You will not find me kicking in citizens' doors, or firing upon innocents in the name of government control. Out of 200 or so guys I work with...I doubt you'd find 10 who would disagree with me. And out of those 10...all are rookies who just don't have a clue yet. Unfortunately, the general public thinks those numbers are the opposite.


----------



## Chris McDonald

Howard Knauf said:


> I think about it all the time. I'm a huge fan of the 2nd amendment...no matter what the "Association of Chiefs of Police" have to say about what cops think about private gun ownership. You will not find me kicking in citizens' doors, or firing upon innocents in the name of government control. Out of 200 or so guys I work with...I doubt you'd find 10 who would disagree with me. And out of those 10...all are rookies who just don't have a clue yet.


The answer you gave is the one I get, police really are part of we the people but they are not perceived as we the people buy us people. Don’t know exactly when or how it changed but it did. I will agree that our numerous lawyers are likely the problem of making the us vs them thing. 
The that I ask the question on who would fire into the crowd and all Le have thought about it is a bit uneasy 
You at work? :razz:


----------



## Howard Knauf

Chris McDonald said:


> You at work? :razz:


 Yes, I'm working beachside on this beautiful 85 deg day. I could be stroking tickets to young hotties but decided today is a good day to be a real person, and not a revenue seeking robot. I hope that is OK with you.:razz:

Been trying to catch our Una-bomb threat caller all week. His bond is over a miliion dollars now so he won't be too happy when we get him.


----------



## Jim Nash

Does anyone think the tourist could have done a better job at changing what he thinks is the bad behavior of the BPO , not just at that moment but to change it for others in the future ? 

Or was this the best way and if so do you think it was effective for future people crossing the border ?


----------



## Chris McDonald

Howard Knauf said:


> Yes, I'm working beachside on this beautiful 85 deg day. I could be stroking tickets to young hotties but decided today is a good day to be a real person, and not a revenue seeking robot. I hope that is OK with you.:razz:
> 
> Been trying to catch our Una-bomb threat caller all week. His bond is over a miliion dollars now so he won't be too happy when we get him.


Sorry man, It was a dick statement, but believe it or not I didn’t mean to be a dick, just came out wrong. Its got to be tougher than it should be to be a caring officer in today’s world. Just reading this tread proves that. The crowed is ready to burn you guys at the stake…. You got a light?


----------



## Chris McDonald

Been trying to catch our Una-bomb threat caller all week. His bond is over a miliion dollars now so he won't be too happy when we get him.[/quote]

Don, this you?


----------



## Don Turnipseed

Howard, Jim and the rest of you. I keep telling you guys that behavior in dogs parallels human behavior. Lets look at this for a minute. Officer comes up to me and starts questioning me about what I am doing standing there? He represents authority and I go into "defence" You boys know how defence works. Most people, like dogs, will cur, then there are the ones that don't cur and turn into assholes. Asshole simply being one that may ask "Why, there a law against it?". Then you go into defence because he asked you a question that you see as a challenge to your impirical authority. Now you become an asshole rather than just diffusing the situation with a simple comment (in a pleasant tone mind you) like." No sir, we have had some strange goings on around here lately and just wanted to make sure your alright." Some have that knack, most don't.


----------



## will fernandez

so what you are saying is that the handler hard (asshole) has to be put in his place quick and the handler sensitive dog (cur) is dealt with kid gloves.

Just Sayin


----------



## Matthew Grubb

will fernandez said:


> so what you are saying is that the handler hard (asshole) has to be put in his place quick and the handler sensitive dog (cur) is dealt with kid gloves.
> 
> Just Sayin


 
OMG!!! Will you are my hero with that answer! Bravo! Now the question is..... can we change the handler hard with all positive means or do we need to combine it with compulsion!


----------



## will fernandez

well if you dont use compulsion you are rewarding that dog for coming up the lead. I think it is best to take a step back, take a deep breath and quickly figure out what type of handler hard dog you have at the end of the leash. Is it a real monster that you have to choke out or one that a quick pop and a treat will take care of it. If its a dog that you are use to handling...you will know what is most effective. However if its one that you have never worked before you will only have a split second to guess. Make a mistake and you can get badly bitten or worse really f up the dog. Its a no win situation that you really dont know what will happen unitl you are in that position.


----------



## Howard Knauf

Oh no you didn't, Will??!!! That was funny as hell!! Is a Taser the equivalent to a DD/ecollar collar?:-o:-o


----------



## James Lechernich

Jim Nash said:


> Does anyone think the tourist could have done a better job at changing what he thinks is the bad behavior of the BPO , not just at that moment but to change it for others in the future ?
> 
> Or was this the best way and if so do you think it was effective for future people crossing the border ?


In what context? The recording device or his demeanor?

As I said before, I have no problem with people taking action in these situations, because how else are we to determine what is just or unjust if we're not made aware of it in the first place? Also, recording devices of all types can be powerful tools when used judiciously(no creative editing). But in this case, I think the guy would have been better served by having had his shit together(story and relevant laws) and remaining calm during questioning. Attitude aside the stammering and half answers do him no favors when John Q. Public is trying to make heads or tails of the audio. Courtesy counts and it might have prevented him from being pushed into a situation where his instinct was to resist arrest a/o "assault" a BP officer. However, even in choosing to take the confrontational route, where the goal was seemingly to agitate the BP and get them to sound bad on tape, being able to answer questions and cite the statutes that were on his side, in a clear and concise manner, would have been, imo, a far better strategy then what is heard on tape. It also might have prevented an arrest that day, or at the very least have given him an opportunity to prolong the interview further, which would likely have frustrated the BP interviewer and netted him something of value in a civil suit or a quick payday from a tv news station.


----------



## Don Turnipseed

Yeh Will, I guess that is the way it is handled when your dealing with dogs. Thanks for the refreshing view point. You got me shaking my head now.


----------



## Jim Nash

Don Turnipseed said:


> Howard, Jim and the rest of you. I keep telling you guys that behavior in dogs parallels human behavior. Lets look at this for a minute. Officer comes up to me and starts questioning me about what I am doing standing there? He represents authority and I go into "defence" You boys know how defence works. Most people, like dogs, will cur, then there are the ones that don't cur and turn into assholes. Asshole simply being one that may ask "Why, there a law against it?". Then you go into defence because he asked you a question that you see as a challenge to your impirical authority. Now you become an asshole rather than just diffusing the situation with a simple comment (in a pleasant tone mind you) like." No sir, we have had some strange goings on around here lately and just wanted to make sure your alright." Some have that knack, most don't.


Don , perfect example of how people that haven't been in my position don't get it . I know that saying bothers alot of people but it's true and it's the same reason I keep telling myself to stay out of these types of conversations because I will be talking to a bunch of people who have never been their or believe they have and give lame examples of it . Once again , I didn't listen and jumped in this one . I have in the past tried different tones in these types of discussions even ,in order to give my side as a cop (and a citizen) in order , not to force people to think like me but to try and find a common middle ground . Hasn't worked .

Not using the dog behavior theory but I thought very similar to that when I first came on as a police officer . Tried diffusing situations just like you stated . Didn't work . Tried other things because I'm aware of how powerful disrespect or perceived disrespect to the person I'm dealing with makes sitautions worse . 

I still try and be respectful and try to diffuse situations at first but I sure do cut to the chase quicker when it doesn't work . 

I'll agree , dog communication has many simularities but human communication is much more complex then that . There's a much more complex mixture of verbal and physical communication in human interaction . Humans can and do in my dealings lie , spin , distract , bluff , etc. verbally while their body language may say the same thing or communicate something entirely different then what they are saying . Dogs in my experiance are much more honest in their communication .

Don , I've had a much different experiance then yours , in many cases when someone is already pissed off they will just not have any of it no matter how nice you try and be . That stuff won't work with them because they simply don't want it to and it happens much more often then you think it does . 

Beleive it or not Don I didn't get into this job to bully or degrade people . I got into it to make situations better then they were before I got there and most of the cops I work with are that way too . I wish it were that easy Don . I really do .


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: Beleive it or not Don I didn't get into this job to bully or degrade people . I got into it to make situations better then they were before I got there and most of the cops I work with are that way too . I wish it were that easy Don . I really do .

That is why I do not understand why you did not jump in to the verbal beat down we have been giving this guy. I absolutely believe that you are a good person, and are not out there being a prick non stop, However, how cool would it be if those of you like this, tossed the asswads on your force to the wolves right off.

Once the people gain trust that you are going to toss asswads, and not do the sad stick up for them thing, then we would probably go along a lot better, and people would not be coming up the leash as much.


----------



## Jim Nash

James Lechernich said:


> In what context? The recording device or his demeanor?
> 
> As I said before, I have no problem with people taking action in these situations, because how else are we to determine what is just or unjust if we're not made aware of it in the first place? Also, recording devices of all types can be powerful tools when used judiciously(no creative editing). But in this case, I think the guy would have been better served by having had his shit together(story and relevant laws) and remaining calm during questioning. Attitude aside the stammering and half answers do him no favors when John Q. Public is trying to make heads or tails of the audio. Courtesy counts and it might have prevented him from being pushed into a situation where his instinct was to resist arrest a/o "assault" a BP officer. However, even in choosing to take the confrontational route, where the goal was seemingly to agitate the BP and get them to sound bad on tape, being able to answer questions and cite the statutes that were on his side, in a clear and concise manner, would have been, imo, a far better strategy then what is heard on tape. It also might have prevented an arrest that day, or at the very least have given him an opportunity to prolong the interview further, which would likely have frustrated the BP interviewer and netted him something of value in a civil suit or a quick payday from a tv news station.


The taperecorder is a nonissue with me . There's alot that's been said about the problems with how our society is and how it's run the police being a part of it .

This guy obviously didn't like how he was being dealt with and I was wondering if people felt the actions he took that day were the best or was there a better way ?

I was also wondering for those who thought he actually did chose the best course of action that day , how effective it was for changing the BPOs behaviors in the future .


----------



## Jim Nash

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: Beleive it or not Don I didn't get into this job to bully or degrade people . I got into it to make situations better then they were before I got there and most of the cops I work with are that way too . I wish it were that easy Don . I really do .
> 
> That is why I do not understand why you did not jump in to the verbal beat down we have been giving this guy. I absolutely believe that you are a good person, and are not out there being a prick non stop, However, how cool would it be if those of you like this, tossed the asswads on your force to the wolves right off.
> 
> Once the people gain trust that you are going to toss asswads, and not do the sad stick up for them thing, then we would probably go along a lot better, and people would not be coming up the leash as much.


Tone is going to be tough with this answer but believe me I'm trying to be sincere and descent here and that's how I took your statement . 

Jeff , I honestly don't know how to convey to you anymore then I already have how I feel about this . I've given my viewpoints over and over again on this . This discussion is a lot like getting into the long circular discussions with the folks I already pointed out don't want to hear it that I deal with on calls . I can try and try to calm them down and explain things to try and get them to calm down and it doesn't work because all they see is someone doing them wrong , even if my actions and reasons for being there are completely legit and correct . 

All I can say is reread all the stuff I've written already .


----------



## Howard Knauf

Jeff,

What do you want us to say? You want us to totally fry this guard? I find it interesting that those who vehemently appose the guard, and 100% support the asshole, should see it their way cause that's always the right way. And you wonder why unions and other cops support each other?... 

Like Jim, I let my feelings known already on this. You can't discount us because we don't 100% support the civilian completely. Unlike 99% of the people commenting on this thread, WE know, and experience BOTH sides to this issue, so we can make knowledgeable statements others can't. To discount what we have experienced, just to side with the ignorance of being a one sided viewpoint...and to shake your head because we don't 100% see it your way, is one reason why there are riffs between the two.

The mentality is "WE are right b/c WE are the citizens". " YOU have no say so as an oppressing Govt official, thusly it is OK to verbally and physically abuse you. When you took the job you knew what you signed up for". " We can abuse you and YOU have to take it.".

Sorry to say....LEOs are people to. WE are not ROBOCOP; nearly indestructable but with a great attitude towards shitbags. Assholes that take kindness for weakness usually graduate to violence. I am nice....until it's time not to be nice....Oooops! I hope it's OK to not be nice sometimes.](*,)

JEff...."you" in the above does not specifically include yourself....But...YOU have experience some things. But, YOU have ducked bullets and committed personal insult upon men. YOU have had the opportunity to be nice...or not, to civvies. YOU can try and forget, but YOU can never erase your experiences. YOU can deny them...and/or learn from them. They are yours forever. You regularly pluck experiences from your past to get your point across on this board....WE do the same. You are healded as a Marine. WE are chastised as govt do-boys. Life's a bitch.

This being nice to the Nth degree reminds me of the stories from VietNam vets who said children would bring them bombs wrapped as gifts. WHO makes the call???


----------



## James Lechernich

Jim Nash said:


> The taperecorder is a nonissue with me . There's alot that's been said about the problems with how our society is and how it's run the police being a part of it .
> 
> This guy obviously didn't like how he was being dealt with and I was wondering if people felt the actions he took that day were the best or was there a better way ?
> 
> I was also wondering for those who thought he actually did chose the best course of action that day , how effective it was for changing the BPOs behaviors in the future .


For me there is no simple answer because the incident involves a foreign tourist and my views stem from me being an American citizen protected by the constitution. Again admitting my ignorance as to what rights a tourist has when crossing our borders, it's hard to pinpoint *exactly* what else could have been done besides what I've already written. American or foreigner, I don't think anyone should just lie down when their rights are being infringed upon. Know your rights and defend yourself to the fullest extent possible. But with this guy, I think where he went wrong is that whether he was sick of harassment/infringement, or was just baiting BP for sport or sensationalism, he didn't know the law(s) well enough and it got him thrown in jail. Might that have been his end goal? Perhaps. It wouldn't be the first time, nor will it be the last. 

The value of courtesy cannot be overstated, imo, but having said that, I don't think there is necessarily a better way to expose incidents like these then for someone to play the guinea pig, so to speak. Voting and community meetings are well and good, but in my experience it nearly always takes someone having to experience the situation firsthand and standing up for their rights before legislators and the public at large take notice and begin to change things. Look back on most of our rights and you'll see people who've faced the firing squads, either volunarily or by chance, in order to get things done. Anyone remember the story of Gideon Wainwright? Not the most upstanding person to ever walk the earth, but we have him to thank for ensuring we have the right to an attorney whether we can afford one or not. It took him getting busted and appealing to the supreme court because he didn't think that it was fair for someone to be denied the right to an attorney during trial before things changed for the better. How many others thought the same thing but didn't do anything about it? How long would it have taken for things to change if Wainwright had said **** it, laid down and just served his time because he was a barely literate drunk? 

As for effectiveness, I think only time will tell.


----------



## Patrick Murray

To me the question is, was justice served? I say, no. 

It can be argued that the tourist was a prick. But I _don't _believe he should have been arrested for being one. That's not justice. Perhaps the border agent could have simply_ inconvenienced_ the couple by making them wait 30 minutes or so. I don't know. I do believe this, however. The agent(s) apparently trumped up false charges (assault) on the tourist which we can ascertain to be untrue. The agent(s) lied. :^o This is justice? 

Perhaps the tourist should have been inconvenienced for his "attitdue", but arresting him was_ far _too excessive and, again, unjust.

It will be interesting to know the outcome of this matter.


----------



## Howard Knauf

James Lechernich said:


> . How many others thought the same thing but didn't do anything about it? How long would it have taken for things to change if Wainwright had said **** it, laid down and just served his time because he was a barely literate drunk?
> 
> As for effectiveness, I think only time will tell.


 This is what it boils down to. I'm not a law scholar, but I have more law education that the majority of people I deal with...even high paid professionals. I love when sheeple tell me I have to read them their rights when, clearly in the majority of situations I don't. Most people are getting their law info from "Cops", and/or these BS TV shows.

Yea, you have freedom of speech....you don't have freedom to yell "Fire" in a crowded theatre though!!!

Just perusing through current case law is a feat even good lawyers find daunting. How is Joe citizen gonna tell me he has rights (same as me) but wants to resist when he breaks the law under the guise of exercising those rights he thinks he has. IGNORANCE OF THE LAW IS NO DEFENSE. Like I said before.....you better know the rules. 99% of people don't, but they get all indignant when the lowly, jack booted cop is just doing a job he knows how to do...but you think you know better in your ignorant bliss.

If you're gonna challenge authority...do it right, do it smart...and have your ducks in a row. Physically resisting in a spur of the moment because you THINK you are being violated may also get you a trip to the ER for your ignorant troubles. This is how it is folks.

IF you are right when you resist authority, good things may happen. Its just like doing any other job...if you're gonna do it, do it right!


----------



## Howard Knauf

Patrick Murray said:


> To me the question is, was justice served? I say, no.
> 
> It can be argued that the tourist was a prick. But I _don't _believe he should have been arrested for being one. That's not justice. Perhaps the border agent could have simply_ inconvenienced_ the couple by making them wait 30 minutes or so. I don't know. I do believe this, however. The agent(s) apparently trumped up false charges (assault) on the tourist which we can ascertain to be untrue. The agent(s) lied. :^o This is justice?
> 
> Perhaps the tourist should have been inconvenienced for his "attitdue", but arresting him was_ far _too excessive and, again, unjust.
> 
> It will be interesting to know the outcome of this matter.



You cant have it both ways Patrick. Either he was wrong, or not. How is denying a tourist his freedom for 30 minutes any less intrusive than an arrest? Tourist either stays, or goes. If you're gonna take a stand...take a stand. The police can't afford to live in a wishy washy enviroment. The minute we are less than decisive (right or wrong) it could be our last decision.


----------



## Don Turnipseed

Patrick Murray said:


> To me the question is, was justice served? I say, no.
> 
> It can be argued that the tourist was a prick. But I _don't _believe he should have been arrested for being one. That's not justice. Perhaps the border agent could have simply_ inconvenienced_ the couple by making them wait 30 minutes or so. I don't know. I do believe this, however. The agent(s) apparently trumped up false charges (assault) on the tourist which we can ascertain to be untrue. The agent(s) lied. :^o This is justice?
> 
> Perhaps the tourist should have been inconvenienced for his "attitdue", but arresting him was_ far _too excessive and, again, unjust.
> 
> It will be interesting to know the outcome of this matter.


Excellent post and point Patrick. Howard think this is justice. That's why they are forever passing laws to protect the average citizen from those that are there to serve and protect.....while many of these laws handicap LE in doing their job, it became a necessary to put a leash on the protectors of society to control them somewhat.


----------



## Christopher Jones

Thats pretty much my point Don. Police should be taught to diffuse situations, not to exagerate them.
There was a video I saw ages ago, cant seem to put my hands on it for the time been. Basically it was a home move done by a couple of Christian dudes who were walking across America over some shit, I cant remember. But at every town they would pass through they would stand on street corners and give out hand bills with information about their cause. At nearly every town the local cops would come up and demand they stop doing it and move on. They of course would say "First Amendment" and of course the cops would go into "If you dont want to be arrested, do as I say scum" mode. Then they went into some small town somewhere and the local cop came out to see what they were doing. He greeted them as fellow humans and with a smile on his face (go figure). He asked what they were up to, they tell him, and he then says "Ok, cool. Your not breaking any laws so can you just make sure you keep off the road. And if you problems feel free to give us a call". And off he went. 
The difference in professionism and attitude was so black and white. 



Don Turnipseed said:


> Howard, Jim and the rest of you. I keep telling you guys that behavior in dogs parallels human behavior. Lets look at this for a minute. Officer comes up to me and starts questioning me about what I am doing standing there? He represents authority and I go into "defence" You boys know how defence works. Most people, like dogs, will cur, then there are the ones that don't cur and turn into assholes. Asshole simply being one that may ask "Why, there a law against it?". Then you go into defence because he asked you a question that you see as a challenge to your impirical authority. Now you become an asshole rather than just diffusing the situation with a simple comment (in a pleasant tone mind you) like." No sir, we have had some strange goings on around here lately and just wanted to make sure your alright." Some have that knack, most don't.


----------



## Christopher Jones

Here is a good read on what happens when people are put in control of other people.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_prison_experiment


----------



## James Lechernich

Howard Knauf said:


> You cant have it both ways Patrick. Either he was wrong, or not. How is denying a tourist his freedom for 30 minutes any less intrusive than an arrest? Tourist either stays, or goes. If you're gonna take a stand...take a stand. The police can't afford to live in a wishy washy enviroment. The minute we are less than decisive (right or wrong) it could be our last decision.


I agree, and I think not having definitive policies/laws is a slippery slope that lends itself to a host of bad outcomes. I've never crossed the border to Canada or Mexico, so I don't know what the signages say, and if anyone does, please speak up, but I think in situations like these it would be wise to advertise to people not holding U.S. passports whatever laws that grant BP powers of search and interrogation for people crossing our borders. At least this way people know where they/we stand so there's no mistaking policies or claiming ignorance. 

And as for us Americans, when we notice areas in which our government and public servants have, or are attempting to acquire, more power over us than we're comfortable with(such as FEMA checkpoints/searches that some feel violate our 4th amendment rights), it's time to get involved and take action, be it through contacting representatives, news media, voting, filing complaints, civil suits, or even pulling stunts like the Canadian-BP incident. I don't want anyone arresting me or searching my person/property without a damn good reason, and one that is backed up by laws that don't infringe on my rights. But at the same time, I don't want anyone detaining me on a whim, either, because although I advocate LE having enough autonomy to exercise good judgment(ie: not taking everyone to jail for every little thing), it's vague practices like detainment for unspecified reasons/timeframes that leads to things like profiling and coercion/intimidation that are harder to prove and continue unchecked longer than policies and laws that are on record. The lesser of two evils is still evil, is it not?


----------



## Howard Knauf

Don Turnipseed said:


> Excellent post and point Patrick. Howard think this is justice. That's why they are forever passing laws to protect the average citizen from those that are there to serve and protect.....while many of these laws handicap LE in doing their job, it became a necessary to put a leash on the protectors of society to control them somewhat.


 How do you figure I think this is justice, Don??? I clearly stated that detaining the tourist for 30 minutes in lieu of arresting him is no different. You have still denied him of his freedom on both counts. How hard is that to figure out. My point was....Patrick thought it was OK to detain him for 30 minutes, but not arrest him. I contend that he either be held, or released. One or the other....shit or get off the pot. If a citizen is willing to negotiate how much of their right is taken away, how you gonna crack on the cops? We either have rights, or we don't. There's no middle ground.


----------



## Gerry Grimwood

Howard Knauf said:


> If you're gonna challenge authority...do it right, do it smart...and have your ducks in a row. Physically resisting in a spur of the moment because you THINK you are being violated may also get you a trip to the ER for your ignorant troubles. This is how it is folks.


Sometimes you don't even have to be physical, how do you read this situation Howard ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X5I7IBd_MmM


----------



## James Lechernich

Christopher Jones said:


> At nearly every town the local cops would come up and demand they stop doing it and move on. They of course would say "First Amendment" and of course the cops would go into "If you dont want to be arrested, do as I say scum" mode. Then they went into some small town somewhere and the local cop came out to see what they were doing. He greeted them as fellow humans and with a smile on his face (go figure). He asked what they were up to, they tell him, and he then says "Ok, cool. Your not breaking any laws so can you just make sure you keep off the road. And if you problems feel free to give us a call". And off he went.
> The difference in professionism and attitude was so black and white.


At the risk of finding out this deputy is a pedobear or drug kingpin, your story reminds me of this video that I saw recently. How many times have we seen cops, whether justified or not, giving young kids(especially skaters) a ton of shit? Sometimes they even go crazy like that one video with the cop driving the golf cart. But here's this guy, who besides doing his job(checking out the kids, calling one of their moms, etc) also treats them with respect, like "fellow humans", and in all probability, imparted on them a lifelong opinion that not all cops are assholes. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hF0y_ZbONRs


----------



## Don Turnipseed

Howard Knauf said:


> How do you figure I think this is justice, Don??? I clearly stated that detaining the tourist for 30 minutes in lieu of arresting him is no different. You have still denied him of his freedom on both counts. How hard is that to figure out. My point was....Patrick thought it was OK to detain him for 30 minutes, but not arrest him. I contend that he either be held, or released. One or the other....shit or get off the pot. If a citizen is willing to negotiate how much of their right is taken away, how you gonna crack on the cops? We either have rights, or we don't. There's no middle ground.


Sarcasm Howard........but it seems to have turned out to be sarchasm......which is the enormous void between one deivering sarcastic wit and the receiver that didn't understand it.


----------



## Christopher Jones

Gerry Grimwood said:


> Sometimes you don't even have to be physical, how do you read this situation Howard ?
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X5I7IBd_MmM


I doubt your gonna get much response from the police on the forum on that one Gerry. The reality is they never speak out against their own, and hence you have a "them" and "us" mentality. 

And you never know Gerry, that guy might have deserved a good kicking, he might have asked them to stop kicking the first guy that was on the ground.
And here is the offical police comment on that video.
"I know many officers that have looked at [the video] and they're not shocked at all, This is use of force, This is what we're trained to do," Graham said.


----------



## Howard Knauf

It's easy to sit back and be sarcastic when no-one is calling your integrity and commitment to this country into question. I'm trying to educate people on how it really is. Let em learn on their own..or the hard way. I'm Back to training dogs; they understand even the simplest of concepts.


----------



## Chris McDonald

Patrick Murray said:


> To me the question is, was justice served? I say, no.
> 
> It can be argued that the tourist was a prick. But I _don't _believe he should have been arrested for being one. That's not justice. Perhaps the border agent could have simply_ inconvenienced_ the couple by making them wait 30 minutes or so. I don't know. I do believe this, however. The agent(s) apparently trumped up false charges (assault) on the tourist which we can ascertain to be untrue. The agent(s) lied. :^o This is justice?
> 
> Perhaps the tourist should have been inconvenienced for his "attitdue", but arresting him was_ far _too excessive and, again, unjust.
> 
> It will be interesting to know the outcome of this matter.


To me holding someone for a period of time without arresting them is a hostage/kidnapping kind of thing. They either have the right or think they have the right to arrest someone of have to let them roll. This isn’t just some ass that got pulled over for going 10 over, this is someone who is asking permission to enter the U.S of A. 
I think many of you are not taking into consideration that he does not have the “right” to go shopping in our mall. If he wants to he should be polite about it or get turned away. When I cross boarders into other countries they are granting me a privilege to visit their country, they don’t need me for shit. If this guy acted like this at 90% of the other countries boarders they world they would rape his wife and cut his head off.


----------



## Don Turnipseed

Howard Knauf said:


> It's easy to sit back and be sarcastic when no-one is calling your integrity and commitment to this country into question. I'm trying to educate people on how it really is. Let em learn on their own..or the hard way. I'm Back to training dogs; they understand even the simplest of concepts.


What does acting like an asshole on occasion have to do with integrity and commitment to this country?


----------



## David Frost

Howard Knauf said:


> It's easy to sit back and be sarcastic when no-one is calling your integrity and commitment to this country into question. I'm trying to educate people on how it really is. Let em learn on their own..or the hard way. I'm Back to training dogs; they understand even the simplest of concepts.


Howard, I've read this thread with interest. I've even learned a couple of things. Half of us are assholes. (It's my partner your partner must be a nice guy ha ha) Jeff O. showed the Marine MP's how it's done and that there are rights at the border. ha ha. there isn't any grey areas in law enforcement. Everyone we talk to is truthful and only defensive when we abuse them. Very informative thread for me. 

PS I'm not at work. (that is just in case IA is watching)

DFrost


----------



## Christopher Jones

Chris McDonald said:


> To me holding someone for a period of time without arresting them is a hostage/kidnapping kind of thing. They either have the right or think they have the right to arrest someone of have to let them roll.


A traffic stop can take 30 minutes to get through sometimes. Trust me, your not just free to drive off if they havent charged you after 15 minutes.


Chris McDonald said:


> If this guy acted like this at 90% of the other countries boarders they world they would rape his wife and cut his head off.



So he and his wife should feel lucky they only ended up with trumped up assult charges. Cool.


----------



## Chris McDonald

PS I'm not at work. (that is just in case IA is watching)


----------



## Randy Allen

Here's the deal.
If you're a tourist coming to America from anywhere, answer the stupid questions and play nice. You have no god given right to visit in our country! That right is for us to extend, so don't be an ass****. Else you WILL be denied entry. Just answer the stupid questions and obey directions.
You have absolutely no right to demand entry. JUST ANSWER THE STUPID QUESTIONS!

Our house, our rules. Easy to understand, no?


PS.
Same goes for us if we visit another country.
It all equals out.


----------



## David Frost

Randy Allen said:


> PS.
> Same goes for us if we visit another country.
> It all equals out.


Have you ever seen a German roadblock, on the autobahn? Darned impressive. 

DFrost


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## Randy Allen

I guess I'm happy to say I've never had the pleasure.


----------



## Dwyras Brown

Christopher Jones is just pushing up his post count. I aalso think there is a little pe*** envy on his part. If he had one he would man up and show the next officer he sees what he thinks of him. Sarcasm intended.


----------



## Dwyras Brown

Anyone can find bad in LE and any other profession, if thats all you are looking for. CHristopher, be mindful of how you lump all members of a class into one group. I grew up near Jasper, should I assume you are a member of the KKK or any other white suprmacist group because you are white and have tattoos?


----------



## Chris McDonald

Christopher Jones said:


> A traffic stop can take 30 minutes to get through sometimes. Trust me, your not just free to drive off if they havent charged you after 15 minutes.
> 
> So he and his wife should feel lucky they only ended up with trumped up assult charges. Cool.


Listen I more than most would love to jump on any gov person there is. It almost hurts me to agree with the gov guys here. But there right, this guy was an ass, there is no reason for him not have just been semi polite. No one was asking to get there assed kissed but he did not offer minimum level politeness and to me his actions justified being asked to pull your car over there. When someone is trying to come into my country I am all for having someone who is acting up being asked to pull over. Even after being asked to pull over if he kept his cool he would have been on his way. To me he and his wife worked hard at getting arrested. If I acted like this going into Canada I would expect to wind up in hand cuffs if I acted like this going into Tijuana I would be on that show Locked Up Abroad. I understand a traffic stop can take longer than 15 minutes but in theory it is because they are checking your status because you just broke a law. If you are clean and they give you a ticket I really don’t think they can hold you for the reason of punishing you. Its not there job to hold you for punishment. Arrest him or let him roll. 
If this was a Mexican crossing with a visa from Mexico and he acted like this he would not be getting across. 

This is the boarder of the USA I know most don’t realize but we are at war and many people want to kill you, me and our kids. If they try crossing and don’t know what store they want to shop in, are on a flying carpet, smell like Camel or have an I love allah bumper sticker I say cap there ass.


----------



## Dwyras Brown

Who is allia?


----------



## Chris McDonald

Dwyras Brown said:


> Who is allia?


 
I think I fixed it, let me know if there is anything else not spelled right, thanks


----------



## James Lechernich

Dwyras Brown said:


> Who is allia?


He's Achmed's only living relative: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GsElecvWXu0


----------



## Dwyras Brown

Since you asked there should be their. Just felt I should pull some chains, since that is what this post appears to be about. Sort of pisses you of when your chain is pulled doesn't it?


----------



## Guest

I, for one, think it's time for Don to admit that his experiences with cops are probably a lot closer to this rendition:

http://www.xtranormal.com/watch/6638833


----------



## Chris McDonald

Dwyras Brown said:


> Since you asked there should be their. Just felt I should pull some chains, since that is what this post appears to be about. Sort of pisses you of when your chain is pulled doesn't it?


Thanks, but in another thread I already declared all the “there’s” don’t really count. Ill never figure them all out. :razz: 

That’s a funny video


----------



## Christopher Jones

Dwyras Brown said:


> Christopher Jones is just pushing up his post count. I aalso think there is a little pe*** envy on his part. If he had one he would man up and show the next officer he sees what he thinks of him. Sarcasm intended.


 I have said the following
- Good cops deserve our support.
- Bad cops deserve to be fired and sent to jail if they have done the wrong thing.
- The good cops are not willing to turn on the bad cops. How many videos and news stories have been posted on this topic and NOT ONE of the police officers on this forum have come out against what the cops did. 
- Good cops deffuse situations, bad cops esculate them.

I think any normal thinking person would agree with these comments.


----------



## Jim Nash

Chris McDonald said:


> Thanks, but in another thread I already declared all the “there’s” don’t really count. Ill never figure them all out. :razz:
> 
> That’s a funny video


I agree includeng then and than , our and are , I even screw up where and were . Screw it .


----------



## Christopher Jones

Dwyras Brown said:


> Anyone can find bad in LE and any other profession, if thats all you are looking for. CHristopher, be mindful of how you lump all members of a class into one group. I grew up near Jasper, should I assume you are a member of the KKK or any other white suprmacist group because you are white and have tattoos?


Nah, but if your walking around in a white sheets with a white pillowcase over your head while carrying a burning cross, im gonna call you a KKK member.


----------



## Dwyras Brown

If you see me dressed like that, assume its a seen from 'O Brother Where Art Thou' or its Halloween and that is my costume.


----------



## James Lechernich

Dwyras Brown said:


> If you see me dressed like that, assume its a seen from 'O Brother Where Art Thou' or its Halloween and that is my costume.


Or...moon-lighting on chatroulette: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fHxAdTahubI 





;-)


----------



## Dwyras Brown

James, that guy is funny as f***. Have you seen his Cream of Wheat Jackson shit. He funny as hell.


----------



## James Lechernich

Dwyras Brown said:


> James, that guy is funny as f***. Have you seen his Cream of Wheat Jackson shit. He funny as hell.


"Crack make me craaazy!!" 



I'm dyin' here... \\/\\/\\/


----------



## Don Turnipseed

Steven Lepic said:


> I, for one, think it's time for Don to admit that his experiences with cops are probably a lot closer to this rendition:
> 
> http://www.xtranormal.com/watch/6638833


I can't watch vids Steven....but I admit to nothing. I just tell stories about the old days on occassion. I still find them amusing. So what is the vid about.


----------



## Matthew Grubb

Christopher Jones said:


> I have said the following
> - Good cops deserve our support.
> - Bad cops deserve to be fired and sent to jail if they have done the wrong thing.
> - The good cops are not willing to turn on the bad cops. How many videos and news stories have been posted on this topic and NOT ONE of the police officers on this forum have come out against what the cops did.
> - Good cops deffuse situations, bad cops esculate them.
> 
> I think any normal thinking person would agree with these comments.


 
Here... I will shatter your whole image of police..... KICKING THAT GUY IN THE RIBS WAS WRONG!!! Now apologize for stereotyping me.


----------



## Guest

Don Turnipseed said:


> I can't watch vids Steven....but I admit to nothing. I just tell stories about the old days on occassion. I still find them amusing. So what is the vid about.


You're gonna have to figure something out then. It's comedy gold.


----------



## Jeff Oehlsen

Lepic, it was good, but not nearly up to the high standards that I have set for you.


----------



## Christopher Jones

Matthew Grubb said:


> Here... I will shatter your whole image of police..... KICKING THAT GUY IN THE RIBS WAS WRONG!!! Now apologize for stereotyping me.


I'm very sorry officer. :-D


----------



## Don Turnipseed

It was wrong and is one of the reasons so many patrol units now have video cams.....so they can tell the good guys from the bad guys.


----------



## Matthew Grubb

Don Turnipseed said:


> It was wrong and is one of the reasons so many patrol units now have video cams.....so they can tell the good guys from the bad guys.


That's easy.... the good guys always wear white cowboy hats in the movies.


----------



## Ben Colbert

I wish it were that easy.

After every radical islam fueled terrorist attack people always say "If muslims were a peaceful people why don't we here them rise up and deounce this violence".

I say if Police are good people, if they are truly here to "protect and serve" then why don't we hear Police Unions, FOP, and police leadership call for the firings and charging of any officer caught lying or abusing their authroity? 

In my mind the police in America are getting close to a tipping point. Either thew will keep getting emboldened and we will continue to lose our rights during the heat of a stop or there will be a push back. In my mind I would rather the police be handcuffed intheir ability to do their job and allow me to protect myself and my property than have to be afraid of some armed agents of the state taking my rights.


----------



## Fathi Shahin

This will never end :-({|=


----------



## James Lechernich

Fathi Shahin said:


> This will never end :-({|=












"This is not the end. This is not the beginning of the end. It is the end of the beginning"


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## Don Turnipseed

The God Complex










"You will respect and appreciate us because we are here to protect you"


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## Matthew Grubb

Ben Colbert said:


> I say if Police are good people, if they are truly here to "protect and serve" then why don't we hear Police Unions, FOP, and police leadership call for the firings and charging of any officer caught lying or abusing their authroity? .


 
Since it doesn’t make news you never hear about it…. But believe me, the good happens every day all across America but since it doesn’t make for big ratings on channel 4’s 6 o’clock news you would think that all the police do is bad.

I’ll air dirty laundry from my own department… 

1) Officer out on disability gets involved in drug use and sales: FIRED
2) Officer double dips getting police and military pay for same activity: FIRED
3) Officer patrols 6 miles a day and commits a host of other policy violations: SUSPENDED
4) Officer spends on duty time working his off duty second business: RESIGNED

So again…. If it isn’t news, you don’t hear about how we do police our own on a daily basis. You know the old adage… “I will not lie, cheat, or steal, or tolerate those who do”? There are hundreds of thousands of us that believe that statement!


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## Matthew Grubb




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## Ben Colbert

Nice, quiet issues Matthew.

Police hate bad press. They hate it so much that they'll cover for each other even when it's blowing up in their face. Especially when it involves violence to a civilian.

I posted two videos earlier in the thread. Where was the police outrage? Where were the press releases and public statments calling for the officers to be fired? Where was the president of the union standing up and stating that their conduct, caught on tape, makes them criminals and not cops?


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## Jeff Oehlsen

You may think it is beating a dead horse, but it does show you that there are people out there that do not commit crimes that are sick of this shit. 

I too wonder why about shit. You guys are the people that we have access to. Ever start one of these conversations in person when they are off duty? THey RUN from you. LOL


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## Jim Nash

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> You may think it is beating a dead horse, but it does show you that there are people out there that do not commit crimes that are sick of this shit.
> 
> I too wonder why about shit. You guys are the people that we have access to. Ever start one of these conversations in person when they are off duty? THey RUN from you. LOL


I'll speak for myself , I have gotten into conversations like this in person , on and off duty and it mostly goes the same way it has in this conversation . I can see why they run , it's a waste of time . It's just taken me alot longer to realize it's a lost cause .


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## Guest

Don Turnipseed said:


> The God Complex
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "You will respect and appreciate us because we are here to protect you"


What do you think they're doing? Protecting private businesses from anarcho-socialist protestors? Ensuring the 1st amendment rights of a controversial assembly?

There's all sorts of no good they could be up to! \\/


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## Timothy Stacy

There is no better Police shirt than "My dad beat up your dad in 1968"

That looks fun beating up those hippies!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ajOEE1_HeOY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KvebyWqLXeo&feature=related


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## Don Turnipseed

Steven Lepic said:


> What do you think they're doing? Protecting private businesses from anarcho-socialist protestors? Ensuring the 1st amendment rights of a controversial assembly?
> 
> There's all sorts of no good they could be up to! \\/


Steven, this thread is getting so wore out that I made that post to lighten up the atmosphere just a skosh. I can picture this scene at a peaceful Tea Party....or maybe at a veterans day parade to keep an eye on the terrorist that have returned from Iraq and Afganistan.


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## Matthew Grubb

Ben Colbert said:


> Nice, quiet issues Matthew.
> 
> Police hate bad press. They hate it so much that they'll cover for each other even when it's blowing up in their face. Especially when it involves violence to a civilian.
> 
> I posted two videos earlier in the thread. Where was the police outrage? Where were the press releases and public statments calling for the officers to be fired? Where was the president of the union standing up and stating that their conduct, caught on tape, makes them criminals and not cops?


 
Ben... quiet issues or not, these are the incidents in recent years that have come through my department. Most other departments have similar "quiet issues". Sorry to burst your bubble but the violent encounters that you want to insinuate that are rampantly going on all over the US and being covered up..... well they just don't happen with as much regularity as you think.... sorry but it's true.


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## Don Turnipseed

Here is an interesting link
http://www.alternet.org:80/rights/1..._accused_of_torturing_more_than_100_black_men

Now I am curious, when one looks at the scope of this article and how many decades thios when on while all LE turned a blind eye because there were a lot that knew about it....how many bad ones does there have to be? One result of this is the Gov. of Illinois stopped the death penalty because they got no idea who is guilty or innocent. After listening to some on this thread, it is real easy to see how this happens for decades without a word.


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## Matthew Grubb

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> You may think it is beating a dead horse, but it does show you that there are people out there that do not commit crimes that are sick of this shit.
> 
> I too wonder why about shit. You guys are the people that we have access to. Ever start one of these conversations in person when they are off duty? THey RUN from you. LOL


Jeff... I know there are people who are sick of police brutality.... believe me I know. As far as conversations go... Having one like this with someone who WILL NOT look at all the sides to the issue is like taking the hard line baby killer stance with a Nam vet... It's a conversation that will go no where.


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## Patrick Murray

It seems that this thread has gone from discussing an incident between a Canadian tourist and an American border agent to general police-bashing. I suggest that there is another forum somewhere for that type of activity. I don't believe it's for the betterment of this board that our police k9 brethren be subjected to this undeserved criticism. My suggestion is, again, to take the cop-bashing somewhere else. Besides, many of us non-cops don't have the character, courage and/or intelligence to do what they do anyway. I also have to wonder how many skeletons we have amongst us in our collective closets. Let's not be hypocrites and indiscriminate cop-bashers, especially with our police k9 friends here in this forum. 

I'm done with this thread. See y'all on another topic.


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## Ben Colbert

Patrick Murray said:


> It seems that this thread has gone from discussing an incident between a Canadian tourist and an American border agent to general police-bashing.


Gosh, you're so right. Attempting to hold Law Enforcement to a standard is cop bashing.


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## Don Turnipseed

Speaking for myself only, I am not bashing LE. Yes, I put up and example of a bad one that is going to have long term effects, but it has nothing to do with any board members. I believe Jim and a few others are sincere in why they went into law enforcement. The main bone of contention I have is the general feeling is that everyone should be nice but them and that the vast majority of them are easy to deal with. I have met my share that are super guys and good at their job. I have met a lot that are assholes. This is where things get mixed up. I don't care that many are assholes. I don't see how they could effectively do a job like this without being able to be an asshole. I wouldn't have their job for any amount of money. Not every dog has the temperament and attitude to make a good civil dog. Same is true with LE. To get the job done takes a bit of the right attitude. Believe me when I say I am not knocking them for having attitude, more so for acting like it is less than the norm. How could you go to a job like that every day without attitude.


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## Jim Nash

Don Turnipseed said:


> Speaking for myself only, I am not bashing LE. Yes, I put up and example of a bad one that is going to have long term effects, but it has nothing to do with any board members. I believe Jim and a few others are sincere in why they went into law enforcement. The main bone of contention I have is the general feeling is that everyone should be nice but them and that the vast majority of them are easy to deal with. I have met my share that are super guys and good at their job. I have met a lot that are assholes. This is where things get mixed up. I don't care that many are assholes. I don't see how they could effectively do a job like this without being able to be an asshole. I wouldn't have their job for any amount of money. Not every dog has the temperament and attitude to make a good civil dog. Same is true with LE. To get the job done takes a bit of the right attitude. Believe me when I say I am not knocking them for having attitude, more so for acting like it is less than the norm. How could you go to a job like that every day without attitude.


Don , after all this it doesn't seem we are that far apart . I'm not sure where in the procees I communicated to you I was so far on the extreme from what you just stated . I'm not .


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## Bob Scott

I think most of the posters here have had plenty of time to discuss their likes and dislikes about the video but it's gone way beyond that.
Say G'night Gracy!


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