# Scenting Tennis Balls



## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

I would like to scent tennis balls with cadaver odor by storing them in my ammo box which houses the scent material but the balls themselves have a quite strong "tennis ball odor" which I am scared will permeate my source material and change its scent picture.

Is there a way to get the tennis ball smell out of tennis balls?


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Do you have enough scent material to store a bit of it in a separate box with the tennis ball?
I would also think you could put the tennis ball in the sun for a week or so to age it, but I'd still keep it in separate box.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

That's a great idea! First I will leave the balls in my car for a week then use one of my blood soaked gauze pads to stink up in its own box. I imagine with a bit of rehydration and put that thing it the garage it will get them plenty stinky.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Make sure it's sun dried really well. I put a piece of wood in one of my boxes for the same reason. I wound up tossing it all because of some unseen mold on the wood. :roll: 
Looked like a giant fuzzball when I opened it about a month later.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

The dreaded white mold

Seems some people train with stuff that has it saying it is "natural" but dead things are not normally stored in an airtight container where moisture can run rampant......moisture yes, lack of air, no.

The advice I was given was to remove items from my PVC scent tubes, make sure it was dry before storage and after each and every use, wash and bleach the tubes.


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## Reinier Geel (Apr 4, 2006)

Nancy  for what this is worth, and I must say that this is not my field of expertise either SR  however, sent is sent, and the Filipino army used pig meat, to get the dogs to react to buried meat sent. Check the Tsunami dog sites, I dont have the link anymore.

Tennis balls never loose their odor  even the dry ball just cut it, and Walla the sent is fresh and back  we do not use them for either bomb or nark dogs, because of that.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

We do use tennis balls for reward on some dogs. I'm a believer the dog picks the reward, not the handler. However, we don't scent any of the articles we use for rewarding the dog. 

DFrost


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

OK, the advice I have from two LE, both of whom train bomb and narc dogs, was occassional motivational play with scented toys.

We don't really *seem* to need it, as I actually have more of a problem with the dog wanting to keep searching after a training session (as opposed to being bored or shutting down), but that throwing and retrieving and having them hunt for the scent associated with the toy is a good motivator. I do know a good many people do this.......

In addition to routine problems. I can do that with PVC pipes, but I kind of don't like the dog picking up the pipes as we often use them for hides.

I don't only hide in PVC or ABS - sometimes in other plastics, or glass mason jars with holes in the lids, or cages but never with direct access to the source because it seems dogs are not the *only* critters attracted to the cadaver scent and I don't want the critters to carry it off.., plus we don't want it in contact with surfaces people may touch .plus you really can't just tuck cadaver material in the open ... but of course we lay blanks out with out the scent in them the dogs are not reinforced for alerting on.

I would appreciate insights on this approach.


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Nancy - what's your reason for scenting the tennis balls? Is it to build drive or motivation? How does your dog do with just searching for the ball when you're playing fetch and the ball is thrown into tall grass? If there are problems with that, then I would look into methods to bring up the dog's drive for its toy/play. 

For USAR training, we use a variation of the Bernhard Flinks building drive focus and grip method for drive or motivation-related issues. Works pretty well for us.

Personally, I think you shouldn't need to add cadaver scent the tennis balls. In my opinion, you're adding an unnecessary step or procedure by scenting them.

Of course, that being said, there are many different ways to train a detection dog and the above statements are just my opinion based on my personal experience.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

We used the scented tennis balls for imprinting new puppys/dogs. Have them retrieve a scented ball numerous times with a command, then bring them to an area where the target scent is hidded and give the command. Most of the dogs go right to the scent. Then the tennis ball is given at the source.
Simple explination but it has worked well.


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Interesting idea. 

What steps did you take to proof them off the ball?


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Konnie Hein said:


> Nancy - what's your reason for scenting the tennis balls? Is it to build drive or motivation? How does your dog do with just searching for the ball when you're playing fetch and the ball is thrown into tall grass? If there are problems with that, then I would look into methods to bring up the dog's drive for its toy/play. .


Bob explained it - though I used scented tubes instead of balls for the initial motivation. I think the rationale is it mixes things up as a short fun motivational...nothing more nothing less.

We have no drive and retrieve problems. The dog has a wrecklessly high drive and the world disappears when a ball is involved. (he took out part of my fence when the ball went over (ooops) and crawled 20 feet under my deck (18 inches to 6 inches off ground) to get to another ball that slid under-jumped off a dock..etc etc.. I don't even have to throw a ball - sometimes I prehide his ball (not scented) and just go outside and show him my empty hands......

So, not seeing any training issues - right now we are working on mixing up the problems by varying location of the scent and working search patterns. He is still pretty early in his training. Basically imprinting and alert training (which was easy as DanR already had that down and the dog offered the alert naturally)


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Konnie, after retrieving the scented ball, the hidden target scent is hidden without the ball. Once the dog shows a good understanding of the scent, the ball is then only give as a reward. Not much difference then hiding a reward with the scent for imprinting. If the scent is in a hard to get at spot (bottom of a brush pile, desk drawer, etc) a high drive dog will try and get to it. That's where teaching the indication comes in.


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## Dan Reiter (May 12, 2006)

I do same thing Bob does , prior to being introduced to containers for training the alert behavior: I would use reward item stored in ziplock bag for 24 hours open in front of dog and have him retreive from cover along with the search cue (introducing odor). Once we move to training alert on containers ( I also have same result Bob spoke of dog goes to odor)) I would not use scented reward item during this stage (would be held in place at container entry) and each trial gets replace with clean. That is why I have preference to Kong or Rubber Ball mainly do to durability and option of placing scent inside (during introduction of a given odor) and ease of cleaning (placing in hot water or dishwasher to remove dog slime). If the dog likes tennis ball I would work on converting him not a big deal if the dog is green and has correct drives. It doesnt realy matter what reward is used as long as you can controll the dogs behavior with it. I also make sure dog is properly extinction trained by presenting the reward item so close that he can touch but not access.(the same exact presentation as reward in scent container has). I basically train the dogs alert behavior on a single odor so we have established solid communcation such as a release and reward cue. I have seen well over 100 different Cadaver, Drug, Bomb dogs in training and trialing just since January, I would have to say the one thing that stands out is most problems are directly related to timming of reinforcement. Training timming is everything and thats why initial foundation work is so important for both dog and handler. (the reward or training method for that matter is secondary if timming is not good)

Dan Reiter


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

My actual reward item is not scented but we clean out the scent containers every every use to remove residual odor left by the dog (if contact) and environment.

One thing we are doing with the reward is that we still give the release word but the ball may come from me, it may come from another handler so the dog does not cue on me for the ball (he never knows where it comes from) I am also supposed to practice moving my hands around, putting in ball pocket etc. and extinguishing any reponse to my body language.

Getting a pretty good throwing arm.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Oh in a sidways fashion I see the problem with tennis balls (wanted to avoid washing all those tubes which are not fun to throw since my right arm is bad...and I can sling a ball on a string or a tennis ball better)

Still have the residual scent left by the dog on the ball. Bad thing. Dog should not search for the core ball or for their own saliva. 

Glad I did not "get there" but I do now have more reward items (they are squeaky tennis balls) easier to pocket than the cuz toy.


On a good note - during a training session Grim did jump up on a garbage can where never - scented play balls were sitting (it was, in retrospect, in the path of where scent would have gone) and ignored the balls and continued to find the target scent.......


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Nancy:
I misinterpreted your post from before...you said: "_We don't really *seem* to need it, as I actually have more of a problem with the dog wanting to keep searching after a training session (as opposed to being bored or shutting down),_ 

I thought you meant that you have problems keeping him motivated/searching, but after re-reading it I see you mean that he wants to keep searching. And I thought I was so good at reading comprehension!  

Sounds like you have a very nice dog!

Bob:
Did you guys ever put unscented tennis balls out in the training search area as distractions to see if the dogs would alert on them? Or did you address this in another way? Since I've never used scented tennis balls, I'm just wondering if its harder, easier or just the same to proof them off the tennis balls (compared to other methods).

Dan:
I agree 100%. Its all in the timing!


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I never tried to proof the dogs off of their reward. We often proofed off of the many different containers (jelly jars, pvc tubes, salt shakers, etc) that we kept training materials in.
With the present dog I have, I used a kong on a rope (his preference) and I would often have it in total view of him when he did scratch box demos. I went so far as to put it on the floor next to an empty box to show he knew he had to make a "find" before he was allowed to get the reward. Great for demos. Don't know if it had any value as a training tecnique. 
The training method I used on this particular dog was to have training material in a salt shake in oe hand and dog treats (hot dog) in the other. The dog was first rewarded for any glance at the salt shaker. That was slowly built to a down and bark at the scented salt shaker. Then it was a matter of moving the shaker to the floor, and then hiding it. He learned that the reward only came when he was stairing at the scented salt shaker and doing a down and bark. Nothing more then clicker training without the clicker. 
I looked at other training scenarios as nothing more then large, further apart scented salt shakers.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Really, I think they mostly are some form of operant conditioning.with shaping

..and very much...dog first is rewarded for noticing the source and has to offer progressively more sophisticated behaviors to earn the reward.


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

QUOTE BOB: _I never tried to proof the dogs off of their reward._ END QUOTE

We always proof our USAR dogs off their reward (and animals, food, etc. etc. etc.). You just never know what's going to be in the rubble/buildings when it comes to a real-life disaster. We'll even hide their reward with other distractions such as food, clothing, etc. A lot of dogs show interest in their reward toy when we first do these proofing exercises. Some even go into a full-blown alert. There are a few ways to fix this - it just varies by personal preference and effectiveness of the foundation training. It only takes a few repetitions (sometimes even just one) in order to teach them to ignore it.

This way, we know without a doubt that our dogs are only alerting on live, human scent. In USAR training, this is critical since we probably won't make visual contact with the person they are alerting on. False alerts would be disastrous.

QUOTE BOB: _"With the present dog I have, I used a kong on a rope (his preference) and I would often have it in total view of him when he did scratch box demos. " _END QUOTE

Nice! Reminds me of this Alpha K9 video with tennis balls bouncing all over the dog while it was searching/alerting...
http://www.alphak9.com/gallery/Vidoe-Clips/TAPE_PROMO

QUOTE BOB: _"I went so far as to put it on the floor next to an empty box to show he knew he had to make a "find" before he was allowed to get the reward. Great for demos. Don't know if it had any value as a training tecnique. " _END QUOTE

This is a form of "proofing off the reward," right?


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Re: Proofing.

As I stated before, I don't use scented balls, toys or anything else. I also don't use "proofing" as most people describe it. Actually, it would be more accurate for me to say I don't use the word "proofing" in the sense it is normally used. I look at it from a different standpoint. During scent detection training there are also those items, other than the target odor, that is or can be present at some point during training. The list is nearly infinite. It does contain items such as human odor, the packaging, the toy etc. Rather than spend time worrying about which odor the dog may have learned along with the target odor, we do a series of negative tests. A negative test is placing an object the dog is not trained to detect in the problem. If the dog does not show any interest, or to be more specific, does not give a response on the item, then it's not a problem. If the dog does give a response, then it's time to conduct some extinction training on that particular item. Proofing v. negative test may seem like an argument in semantics, from my experience it's more understandable in court, which of course is a major concern to me.

DFrost


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

QUOTE DAVID:"_A negative test is placing an object the dog is not trained to detect in the problem. If the dog does not show any interest, or to be more specific, does not give a response on the item, then it's not a problem. If the dog does give a response, then it's time to conduct some extinction training on that particular item._ " END QUOTE

This is similar to what we do, although you wouldn't believe the #s of folks in USAR who never think to train for distractions!. 

I would use the term "negative test" to describe a situation where there is nobody/nothing hidden in the search area. The handler must identify that his/her dog has searched the entire area and it is empty (or give a POD). If we put distractions in the area, I'd call it proofing.

Semantics! I wish we could have a dictionary of detection definitions that everybody used and agreed upon. Sure would make it easier for us all to communicate effectively!

Can you share what you do for extinction training?


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## Dan Reiter (May 12, 2006)

I would also add "any odor associated with target odor that is continually reinforced is more likely to cause a false positve" (indicating on a non target odor).

Dan


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

QUOTE BOB: "I went so far as to put it on the floor next to an empty box to show he knew he had to make a "find" before he was allowed to get the reward. Great for demos. Don't know if it had any value as a training tecnique.

 Good point!


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

QUOTE DAN:"_I would also add "any odor associated with target odor that is continually reinforced is more likely to cause a false positve" (indicating on a non target odor). _" END QUOTE

Right. This is why we proof our dogs off their reward toys. Some dogs are likely to show interest or even alert on their toys buried in the rubble since all of our beginning training involves the buried person (aka victim) rewarding the dog with the toy (which means the target scent is hidden with the reward). Its just the way our training program was generally developed, but I'd love to learn more about other ways to do it. Although we typically have no trouble training the dog to ignore its buried toy (even when buried with the residual scent of recently worn clothing) within a few sessions, it would be nice to explore other ways where it isn't an issue at all.

That's why I asked Bob about proofing off the tennis ball. If the target odor is associated with the tennis ball, I would assume some dogs would similarly alert on the ball even in the absence of the target odor. I'm interested to find out what happens when dogs trained with the scented tennis balls were presented with a search area containing only the tennis ball and not the target odor. Would they alert or show interest in the tennis ball? If they didn't, then I'd be interested in learning more about the progression of training. I'm assuming they worked on this issue in some way. Bob?

If you can't tell, I love discussing training methods. I'll pick apart, re-hash and discuss until you're all sick of me. To me, its all about learning


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

So what is "proofing as most people understand?"

My understanding was more along the lines of laying out the compounding scent (e.g., PVC pipe, jars, gloves) in a problem in addition to the target scent and extinguishing any response on the container, or other object, by not rewarding it.......... :?: :?:


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

<<<to describe a situation where there is nobody/nothing hidden in the search area.>>>

There is always something in a search area that is normally present when training. Whether it's nothing more than vegatation or fresh soil. Take for example drug dog training. Let's say we conduct training today. We have 25 vehicles available for training. For todays training we put 3 drug targets and one negative test. Today's test is bounce fabric softner. Of course the handlers do not know if drugs are out, subsequently, they wouldn't know how many or what types. Their instructions are to conduct a sniff of the 25 cars. The dog has 3 positive responses, no response on the fabric softner. That is how it would be documented. In addition to the negative test we ran, each blank car is also a negative test. Think of all the common odors present in the vehicles that were blank, that were also present in the vehicle that had the drugs and the fabric softner. As you can see, each time you run a training problem, there are instances where negative tests are being conducted. For discussion let's say the dog did respond to the fabric softner. Extinction training would be conducted. The procedure I would use would be to set up a drug target and a fabric sofner target. When the dog responded to the softner, I would merely tell the dog to "find it" (I teach Troopers so I have to keep it simple), ignoring the response, when the dog responded on the drug, he's rewarded. All this training is documented. It shows due diligence and good faith effort. Not only that, but a good training record is like a road map. It tells you where you are and how to get where you want to go. Again, while it may be semantics. I don't "proof" from anything. I test. If there is a problem, it's dealt with. If not then we press on.

DFrost


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Thanks, David, for sharing your methods and definitions. Its always helpful for me to hear how other people view things.

And, I guess you're right - there's always "something" in our search area, whether its just rocks and debris or whatever.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

David Frost said:


> <<<to describe a situation where there is nobody/nothing hidden in the search area.>>>
> 
> There is always something in a search area that is normally present when training. Whether it's nothing more than vegatation or fresh soil. Take for example drug dog training. Let's say we conduct training today. We have 25 vehicles available for training. For todays training we put 3 drug targets and one negative test. Today's test is bounce fabric softner. Of course the handlers do not know if drugs are out, subsequently, they wouldn't know how many or what types. Their instructions are to conduct a sniff of the 25 cars. The dog has 3 positive responses, no response on the fabric softner. That is how it would be documented. In addition to the negative test we ran, each blank car is also a negative test. Think of all the common odors present in the vehicles that were blank, that were also present in the vehicle that had the drugs and the fabric softner. As you can see, each time you run a training problem, there are instances where negative tests are being conducted. For discussion let's say the dog did respond to the fabric softner. Extinction training would be conducted. The procedure I would use would be to set up a drug target and a fabric sofner target. When the dog responded to the softner, I would merely tell the dog to "find it" (I teach Troopers so I have to keep it simple), ignoring the response, when the dog responded on the drug, he's rewarded. All this training is documented. It shows due diligence and good faith effort. Not only that, but a good training record is like a road map. It tells you where you are and how to get where you want to go. Again, while it may be semantics. I don't "proof" from anything. I test. If there is a problem, it's dealt with. If not then we press on.
> 
> DFrost


Excellent explination David! It makes so much more sense the way you explained it then my trying to say how we proof off of objects. 
In essence, we don't. We do it as you described and test for it.


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

QUOTE BOB: _"In essence, we don't. We do it as you described and test for it"_END QUOTE

Well, I guess we don't "proof" then either. We do the same or similar as David described, so I guess we "test" for it too. I'm still gonna call it proofing though. :wink: 

See, this is why we need a detection terms dictionary. We could have saved ourselves precious minutes spent typing if only we knew the definitions beforehand! Proof = test? :lol:


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

We are pretty much doing the same thing so I am trying to understand how you would do it *different* - amazing how words can have different meanings for different people.


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

QUOTE NANCY: "_We are pretty much doing the same thing so I am trying to understand how you would do it *different* - amazing how words can have different meanings for different people._" END QUOTE

I've seen people approach the extinction of a false alert differently. I've seen trainers give a verbal correction to the dog for a false alert and then redirect them with the search command. I've also seen folks just completely wait out the false alert without saying a word to the dog. All of these seem to work. So, it seems like there are at least subtle differences in opinion (at least from what I've seen between the different FEMA USAR training groups) on how a false alert should be approached.

So, (insert sarcastic joking tone here) are ya gonna scent those tennis balls or not?


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

<<<See, this is why we need a detection terms dictionary.>>>

I totally agree. There are so many names for different things. I can't imagine the number of arguments among dog trainers that have taken place and they were all agreeing, just using different terms. I've been training dogs for 40 years, between my military and police career, which if nothing else makes me old. But also in that time I've heard all sorts of names for things. I still don't know what the hell social aggression is, never could figure that one out.

As for negative testing, that word is an occuapational necessity. The buzz word among expert witnesses testifying for defense lawyers ( ya know what they call sky diving lawyers????? Answer: SKEET) Is negative testing. Someday they may change to the word "Proof". But right now they want to know if you conduct negative testing. I think the term is grounded in science it's why they use it. Hence, the reason I use it. We find a lot of dope, therefore spend a good deal of time in court.

DFrost


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

" ya know what they call sky diving lawyers????? Answer: SKEET "

:lol: :lol: :lol: at David


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## Dan Reiter (May 12, 2006)

This has been one of those topics again where terminoligy can sure make things interesting.  

So I guess I will start using more simpler terms like "If your timming is to far advanced or to far retarded chances are your dog is going to backfire!!. :wink:


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Terminology is exactly why the SWG Dog group was formed. There is a thread on that group. They are attempting to standardize the terminology used, particularly in law enforcement and SAR. Public comments are invited if you vist the website.

DFrost


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## Dan Reiter (May 12, 2006)

Yes I am aware of unfortunately to date they have covered some terms, but still quite lacking in some basics like primary reward, secondary reward, extinction training, generalizing behavior, hesitation or incomplete reaction to control or target odor etc. just to list a few. The list could be come quite long but well needed to get all trainers on same page in animal behavior terms as it applies in detection dog training.

Dan


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

QUOTE Konnie: _ So, (insert sarcastic joking tone here) are ya gonna scent those tennis balls or not?_

LOL, no I see my "mentor" on July 15 and I am going to ask for clarifation on play with scented toys (he never used the balls btw but scent tubes); it may well have been just for imprinting .... as is the dog is motivated to work, knows the basic scent, and has a good alert.

For the next few weeks my "homework" is focusing on introducing as wide a variety of locations for the hide as possible. Something about "object *something*" - I think along the lines the dog needs to learn to generalize that the scent is the scent no matter where it is, particulalry when it is NOT associated with an object. 

So the hides are hidden from view and in novel places. I am also getting others to place them for me and follow me on the problem so there is not a chance he can cue on me ...... and I focus on watching the dog not the source  you know THAT can be tough!! Kind of like how it can be better to set up a trailing problem where the 2nd person who walks with you knows EXACTLY where the subject went, and ask you questions at critical times (like "what is your dog doing now?") instead of having flags set out which can distract the handler.

AND we are also working on search patterns


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Nancy, something really simple to overlook is aging the scent. To much training where the scent is put out and withing 15-20 mins the dogs are sent. That's way to common with a lot of teams.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Thanks, Bob. Good Reminder.

Got pretty good at aging wtih trailing - so that is another variable to work on. Working out scent pools was helpful for understanding scent movement but, I gotta tell you we are going to be doing more stuff with buildings and that looks like it will be an interesting challenge

BTW, ever throw a smoke bomb in a lake? It works, very interesting to watch the smoke on the water (and fire in the sky?)


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Good reminder, Bob -- seen people do that with trailing - then you have folks who are too lazy to establish a good scent pool on an aged trail.

IOW, the won't stay there while the trail is aging, but backtrack back in when it is ready to run --- fine for some problems but you gotta work scent pools.

Another variable, been told not to worry about yet is the spectrum of material both in terms of age and content.

And then the QUANTITY of material. scent threshold kind of stuff.....


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I suspect that the area you are called into is similar to our Ozarks. With the hills and valleys scent pool reading can become a real science. 
You will find this to be so with building searches also. Air conditioning ducts can carry the scent all over the place. 
I'll bet Dave could give a lot of thoughts on that. 
We always conducted building searches in the same manner as firefighters would work a building. Start on one wall either left or right. You will always work your way back to the start if you follow that process. 
That may not be the case when looking for a criminal.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Bob, I saw that building thing first hand at a seminar where we went into a codemned buidling for training at a seminar. WOW! The woods are easy compared to buidlings. Scent travelling up outer walls and dropping back down, stuff like that. 

Had a trailing demo "go bad' once where the guy walked around the corner of a brick building. Sun shining on his wall, breeze going over top of building. Dog went into woods about 30 yards downwind of the building. Eavy to explain and dog worked it out but for demo you want a more clearcut problem. 

I would love a whole thread on building search and scent movement in buildings (not like you can set off smoke bombs in a lot of them)! We did some this weekend in a barn and that was interesting. 

So how about it David? Where in Tennessee are you BTW?


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

QUOTE BOB: "_You will find this to be so with building searches also"_

I love love love building search training. There's nothing like watching an experienced dog work out difficult problems. We get pretty creative, which makes it a heck of a lot more fun than sticking a person in the same ol' hole in the rubble. 

We have an amazing old wire factory complex near here that we have permission to train in any time. This place has it all. There are places to hide folks in the dark, behind waterfalls (!!!), in the ductwork, in ceilings, in the floor, etc. etc. etc. We have a blast there. Oh, and the dogs seem to learn a lot too


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

We often trained in a firefighters training tower. Talk about drafts and wind problems!  This tower was created to let the fires move quickly throughout.


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

I have fond memories of working Riot in a fire tower. Good times! Let's just say it was a good thing they had chain link nailed to the windows Luckily the crazy boy never seriously injured himself. Can't say as much for the poor folks we piled pallets and straw bales on.  Thank god for hard-hats.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Cyra did great on a pallet pile - very balanced with each step.. With Grim, I am afraid pallets would fly everywhere......

..not doing disaster (and I admire anyone who takes THOSE risks) but still a good excercise if we are first canine responders at small structural (e.g., homes) collapse.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

My first love in dog training is tracking. I do like building search though. In my line of work, doing a building search is really dependant on the threat. At times it's a tactical movement, which will certainly involve at least a cover officer and potentially a swat team. I'll leave the tactics for a different discussion though. 

A building, like an open area search has to be approached paying attention to the environment. sometimes in a building search, one can manipulate the environment to a certain degree. Such as turn on/off ventalation. Identifying the prevailing wind direction or in this case, draft conditions. As has been mentioned, just as hills, valleys building etc can cause the odor to disperse, collect, pool etc in an open area, you also have concerns relative a building. A/C and heating ducts, pipe chases, crawl spaces and the aforementioned ventilation. Whether that ventilation is a natural draft or man-made, ie A/C etc. It all can play a part. In reality, it's not much different than conducting a search for drugs or explosives in a building and as many know, experience is the best teacher. Which of course means, train, train, train.

DFrost

PS, I'm in Nashville.


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## Phil Dodson (Apr 4, 2006)

Bob as roughly 90% of my tracks are commenced anywhere from 10 to 15 minutes and rarely longer than 3 to 4 blocks in length, I rarely run training tracks longer than 30 minutes old or 1 mile in length. I know you SAR guys wish you had it that easy, HuH?! :wink:


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Phil Dodson said:


> Bob as roughly 90% of my tracks are commenced anywhere from 10 to 15 minutes and rarely longer than 3 to 4 blocks in length, I rarely run training tracks longer than 30 minutes old or 1 mile in length. I know you SAR guys wish you had it that easy, HuH?! :wink:


I could only wish. It was not uncommon to lay a track in the afternoon and not run the dog till the next day. 
The team I was with was predominatley cadaver but we still trained for wilderness work.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

That is one of the things we try to stress when we talk with LE different focus of our training attempts. 

That our trailing is typically wilderness (easier htan urban), more contaminated (harder), much older (difficulty depends on variables - I have seen 12 hour problems run in the am a LOT easier than 1 hour old in midday)


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## Phil Dodson (Apr 4, 2006)

That is correct as most of the time in Washington when I invited SAR and competition trackers to observe and train with us they often stated that they thought my teams were performing a combination of air scenting and tracking, mostly the competition trackers relayed this observation though.
When following along with SAR on their aged tracks the teams seemed to really keep their heads down a lot more often than my teams did.


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## Matt Hammond (Apr 11, 2006)

Nancy try taking a pieceof PVC (about a foot long) drilling some small holes in it, put in a piece of cloth that has been sitting with your odor and capping the ends. It make a great imprinting tool for younger dog. I use them for my puppies with either Narc, Explosive or a cooking spice called Anise. Anise keeps the dog open for bomb or drugs but teaches them to use there noise to find the PVC. Lackland has been using it for years. Anyway this PVC toy will help. Or you could get some new terry cloth towles soak them roll them up and use them as a tug toy. Both work great.

Matt Hammond
Quality K-9 Concepts LLC


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

LOL that is where I started and I found damp cotton washcloths are EXCELLENT at soaking up scent.


The fellow who is helping me - is 4 hours away, and with a new kid and not an email person - is hard to get ahold of -- HE was also trained at Lackland

I was being lazy and did not want to wash my PVC all the time, but the final realization was that the dogs can find their own slobber on tennis balls so better the PVC pipes, cleaned after each use.


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