# Proofing an Out



## Ryan Venables (Sep 15, 2010)

Our pup (Malinois) is now getting to the stage where I think he should be outing faster, as he's 8.5 months old now, and we're starting to have some problems, in two specific areas.

1. They he gets a good majority of his exercise by me or my wife throwing a "chuck it." He tears out after it, comes back in great, but then when he gets to us, he just wants to chew the crap out of the ball. His out is very slow, sometimes he does not out at all - without a physical intervention (i.e. smack w/ the ball launcher or pop on his prong). Sometimes he outs quick. I've noticed that short throws, he'll out quick. Longer throws, he'll want to chew and does not out. What I think is going on is this: - because the ball is a rubber ball, he's self-rewarding, and he's flipped more into a defence drive, despite the fact that we're not doing any bite work, and is trying to kill the ball. Because of the long and short throws, I think he becomes frustrated that he cannot get it immediately.

This is what I've tried to get him to out faster:
- two toy method. By the time he gets back with the original ball, I've got another one loaded up in the chuck it and IF he outs, boom I throw the other. BUT, he either won't out, and I'm stuck leading him to the second ball, or he'll try to take the first ball to the second ball. Or if I step on the first ball, he'll completely ignore the second ball, and want to wait me out until I move my foot.

- prong collar corrections don't seem to work, as it seems to jack him up even more if they're light. IF I hammer him, he outs, and wants to go immediately back to it.

- presenting a tug toy to get him to kick into prey so he will out the ball and he'll get the tug. I do not use an out command, I was doing this more of as an experiment to see what his reaction will be. He could care less about the tug.

- I've also tried to use food/treats... he doesn't care. He values: Biting sleeves, balls, tugs, then his treats (he only has food motivation when there is no bite work involved - i.e. straight OB)

Now if there is no ball, his outs are usually pretty good. He will out, we only have this much of a problem with the chuck it. I know I could just not throw the chuck it, but I'd rather work through the problem, because this is a big part of how I exercise him when I"m running short on time, or if we're driving somewhere (I'll put over at a park and run them).

2. While doing bite work, whether its an arm or leg sleeve, he has a real problem with outing. We have spoken with our trainer and he's saying that Mako is flipping into defence when he's on the bite, and he's literally trying to kill what he's biting. He pushes very hard into the decoy, and it almost looks like he's ingesting the sleeve. There is no chewing whatsoever, and he will almost always wrap his legs around the decoy to pull him in harder. Even when he wins the sleeve, and the decoy sheds the sleeve, he'll push it into the ground and hold onto it (i.e. like a lion holding onto a zebras neck)... he'll either do that, or immediately spin around w/ the sleeve in his mouth and push it back into the decoy (which from what I understand is more prey drive).

But getting him to out is difficult. However, trying the two sleeve method seems works very well. We give an out command, then the decoy has another sleeve ready, and on the out command, it comes alive and he gets another bite. He'll do that no problem....BUT if that sleeve does not come alive, he'll look at the decoy, then do nothing UNTIL that sleeve comes alive. So from what I've read on this thread (http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f30/out-when-correct-20695/index4.html) I'm bribing him with the new sleeve, and it's not a true out.

The prong again doesn't really work, he'll whine while doing it, and he gets just jacked, and the only reason he's outing w/ that, is because he's being physically pulled off the sleeve. He's a pretty "hard dog" (he does not care about corrections as long as he has what he wants...) while he's working... a softie otherwise

3. I guess as #3, I'm not sure if this is relevant or if its a different problem, but I notice when I'm rewarding for OB or doing tug work on him, that he seems to "toy discriminate" (picked that up term from a ME video). What I mean by this is that I'll let him win the tug or toss the tug for him to go after it because he's done what I've wanted him to do, and then I'll do a whistle recall, he'll come for the new tug (which is EXACTLY the same kind as the one he just won)... bite for a few secs, and want to go back to the first tug. There is no toy discrimination when it comes to sleeve work though.

So I guess, I'm looking for some constructive advice.

Thanks.


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## Jackie Lockard (Oct 20, 2009)

Out, reward, out, reward, out, reward. In obedience with a tug to freshen up, with a ball, with a decoy. Just reward him for outting with whatever toy you're using. I don't use a chuckit, just regular training balls on a rope, so I play tug, throw, out, whatever. The reward varies between running and tugging but the reward is the toy. I like the tugging because it keeps me in the play; big relationship builder.


Defensive to the ball??? I'd forget about the rest of that crap about different drives and all that. An out problem is an out problem, unless he's letting go of equipment and going for your decoy's throat.


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

When he out's the ball, are you throwing it immediataly, like within a second??? If not this may be your conflict. The dog dosen't want to out because your keep the ball to long.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Ryan. It would be a lot easier to post a video of your dog outing, or not. Playing ball or on the decoy. Terminology screws up most conversations here, unintentionally I think. A video shows a better picture, even if that is not perfect.

Good luck with him whether you post a vid or not. sounds like a handful and a lot of fun.


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## Ryan Venables (Sep 15, 2010)

Edward Egan said:


> When he out's the ball, are you throwing it immediataly, like within a second??? If not this may be your conflict. The dog dosen't want to out because your keep the ball to long.


i do an immediate reward


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## Ryan Venables (Sep 15, 2010)

So of course I go outside to take some video for examples on how he's doing what I described in the OP.... and what does he do? Outing BEAUTIFULLY! I dunno.... I'll try to catch some vid tomorrow at training when the stakes are higher.

Did notice when I'm using the double sleeve set up, that he will out on the first sleeve, and immediately jump the gun and launch at the sleeve that I'm now wearing... but that is nothing new... and easy to fix.


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Jackie Lockard said:


> Out, reward, out, reward, out, reward. In obedience with a tug to freshen up, with a ball, with a decoy. Just reward him for outting with whatever toy you're using. I don't use a chuckit, just regular training balls on a rope, so I play tug, throw, out, whatever. The reward varies between running and tugging but the reward is the toy. I like the tugging because it keeps me in the play; big relationship builder.
> 
> 
> Defensive to the ball??? I'd forget about the rest of that crap about different drives and all that. An out problem is an out problem, unless he's letting go of equipment and going for your decoy's throat.


AMEN!! well said brother,


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Ryan Venables said:


> So of course I go outside to take some video for examples on how he's doing what I described in the OP.... and what does he do? Outing BEAUTIFULLY! I dunno.... I'll try to catch some vid tomorrow at training when the stakes are higher.
> 
> Did notice when I'm using the double sleeve set up, that he will out on the first sleeve, and immediately jump the gun and launch at the sleeve that I'm now wearing... but that is nothing new... and easy to fix.



I have never had a video camera clean up the out.... But... My guess is you probably really thought about what you were doing for the video. Just repeat with care when the camera is off. It's nice to have your own answer and ability to get your out. Nice job.


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## Zakia Days (Mar 13, 2009)

Dude. Dogs can guage distance. If he is "killing" it when you throw it farther its probably because he understands that at a distance he will have more time w/ the ball/object and can chew it all the way back to you. Shorter distance probably = less time to enjoy the object and chew on it. Don't throw it so far until you've taught the dog how to "hold" an object. Secondly,... Aaaaah, never mind. The outing could be another, kind of similar issue. He is either becoming defensive on the out because of the methods used to "out" him and you're creating conflict, or the helper and/or yourselves don't know how to work the dog, so that he does not become or is less likely to become defensive on the out. Also, be patient. If the pup is only 8.5 months old, you may be asking too much at that age. Let him mature w/ or despite the training program. Its likely that if you're having these issues, it was learned as he was developing. Perhaps the wrong methods were used to train the desired response(s). Good luck!


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## Esa Rasimus (Feb 24, 2010)

IMHO, spending quality time with a "real" ring decoy/club, where they have a fundamental understanding bringing forth the "correct" drives needed in ring is a "GOOD" start. Using your old school Sch. helpers that "think" they understand French ring, is your 1st. mistake, going twice or 3 times a year elsewhere for ring training, doesn't cut the mustard either "if" you are serious about competition. Shall I go on where the problem lays ? 

it's kinda like teaching old Sch.helpers new Ringsport tricks, they are 2 completely different sports not only from a HA's point of view but also how your K9 starts off it's foundational training. Sure jumps are jumps, OB is OB but the bitework is OHHHHHHHH so different. 

If all else fails, teach your dog alittle respect and see what happens with the "outs", 

Good Luck ! ! !


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## Ryan Venables (Sep 15, 2010)

Esa I know, we discussed this at length. Our SchH guys have actually been quite good. Very accepting to everything that I showed them from Ottawa. Are they any where as good as you guys? Nope. But they're kinda the best I have. They take direction, and are willing to read up and learn. So I have to start somewhere and I appreciate their willingness to bridge the gap. I'll see if I can get them up to your place at some point in the new year.

I do want to progress in the sport, but will I ever be flying to across the pond? Probably not. We do the best we have for the time I have... considering you're the closest to me, at 4 hours away.

I think what somebody said there earlier about the conflict may be correct... I've heard that before, and I'll examine it a lil further.

I'll try to take some video tomorrow of how he does.






Esa Rasimus said:


> IMHO, spending quality time with a "real" ring decoy/club, where they have a fundamental understanding bringing forth the "correct" drives needed in ring is a "GOOD" start. Using your old school Sch. helpers that "think" they understand French ring, is your 1st. mistake, going twice or 3 times a year elsewhere for ring training, doesn't cut the mustard either "if" you are serious about competition. Shall I go on where the problem lays ?
> 
> it's kinda like teaching old Sch.helpers new Ringsport tricks, they are 2 completely different sports not only from a HA's point of view but also how your K9 starts off it's foundational training. Sure jumps are jumps, OB is OB but the bitework is OHHHHHHHH so different.
> 
> ...


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