# Aggression - Dominance or Fear?



## David Walter (Aug 2, 2008)

A question for the group. How often have you seen fear aggression misdiagnosed as dominance aggression? Was wondering since it would seem like it would be a pretty common with so many "expert" trainers out there.


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## Kyle Sprag (Jan 10, 2008)

not often at all. not an "expert" :lol:


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

All the time. Mostly in pet dogs, but a few police dogs as well.

Howard


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

That's exactly why the PPD trade is so "rewarding"!  
To many dog "experts" snowing the public. 
I couldn't tell you how many folks have come out to our club in the past 5 yrs to get their bada$$ dogs evalluated. They usually wind up leaving with their tails tucked tighter then their dog's.


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## Lyn Chen (Jun 19, 2006)

Not just that. Even in sports. Common dominance signs like always growling or humping other dogs may indicate a dog that is a little bit insecure, hence why he tries so hard to be dominant. Real dominant dogs normally don't have to show other dogs how strong they are...they know it, and you know it, and if you don't you will with the completely straightforward way they deal with other dogs crossing the line. Yet with so many people, they are so impressed when they get a pup that blindly tries to hump other dogs or even themselves, or was always snapping and growling with its littermates.


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## David Walter (Aug 2, 2008)

Interesting. Why I was wondering is that I am currently working with a GREAT (can't stress that enough) trainer on Sasha's aggression which is he diagnosed as fear aggresion. He is a PSD trainer who has trained a pretty fair number of the PD dogs in this area. It took a while before I found someone I was comfortable with to help since I don't believe half of the BS people claim.

Have been making huge strides. Having never dealt with this in a dog before I can see how it can be misdiagnosed.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

It is not always easy to see exactly what is going on in a dog right away, as not all of them are blatant examples. I have seen dogs that pick and choose who to be weird around. Not a lot of fun when they brought the dog to you and the dog is just hanging out and comfortable with you. Plus they look at me as the expert.......AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Should have "sold" them my super PPD package.#-o #-o #-o


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Another really terrible thing is terminology. You and I could be talking about the same thing, and call it something different.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> That's exactly why the PPD trade is so "rewarding"!
> To many dog "experts" snowing the public.
> I couldn't tell you how many folks have come out to our club in the past 5 yrs to get their bada$$ dogs evalluated. They usually wind up leaving with their tails tucked tighter then their dog's.


People come up with more goofy terms and psycho bullshit on this board. These are the 5 terms that sum things up in our club. shitters, sort of a shitter, damn good one, good one, or a pretty good one. 
Bob our club has been around long enough ( mid 70's)that the one's you are speaking of don't even bother coming out we also charge 75 bucks for testing. Once in a wile we get one I missed the last one. Claimed to be a retired LEO now a US Marshal had 2 purdy black and tans#-o taking big. Guess what surprise SHITTERS the SOB bounced us a check for 150.00 bucks.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Mike Scheiber said:


> People come up with more goofy terms and psycho bullshit on this board.....


Like _dominance_ and _fear?_

Or _aggression? _ :lol:


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Like _dominance_ and _fear?_
> 
> Or _aggression? _ :lol:


A question for the group. How often have you seen fear aggression misdiagnosed as dominance aggression? Was wondering since it would seem like it would be a pretty common with so many "expert" trainers out there.
This is the OP's question above
My dog after some spirited bite work wants to hump the sleeve and on special occasions may ejaculate he's not growling if I called this behavior dominance aggression would I be misdiagnosing :-k


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## Mo Earle (Mar 1, 2008)

> _My dog after some spirited bite work wants to hump the sleeve and on special occasions may ejaculate he's not growling if I called this behavior dominance aggression would I be misdiagnosing _












I have allowed dogs to carry a sleeve away for a reward, but why would your dog have the sleeve long enough to experience those "special occasions?"=; what kind of training is taking place here?? 

and lastly....is it really " _aggression_" at all? Mo


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

Hey Mo....Your avatar looks like a shish ka-bob held over a round BBQ grill.O Not aggression sir. 

Howard


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## Mo Earle (Mar 1, 2008)

LOL...no that is just Chico going over a rather large culvert tube..the shish kabob, was the decoy on the other side of it...or at least Chico likes to think that...tastey!! Mo


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

He must be thinking..."I like mine extremely rare..just run it through the fire." LOL


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Howard Knauf said:


> He must be thinking..."I like mine extremely rare..just run it through the fire." LOL


 
Maybe that's why he's "hot" for the sleeve. :-o


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

Funny you bring that up about the sleeve humping. We have a young guy at club who both his males do this, that poor guy takes some shit every time he runs back to his car. The damn dogs wont carry, he drags them to the car by the harness while they grip the jacket or sleeve, slidding along and have their way with it (every time). I wanna know why, what kind of behaviour makes a dog do this and what are the odds of 1 guy having 2 dogs the same way? The dogs aren't related, 1 is a American Bulldog and the other a pit. Neither dog is much to look at in the bitework, I think they take it too seriously and it's allot of pressure on them even when the decoys are trying to lighten it up.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Michelle Kehoe said:


> Funny you bring that up about the sleeve humping. We have a young guy at club who both his males do this, that poor guy takes some shit every time he runs back to his car. The damn dogs wont carry, he drags them to the car by the harness while they grip the jacket or sleeve, slidding along and have their way with it (every time). I wanna know why, what kind of behaviour makes a dog do this and what are the odds of 1 guy having 2 dogs the same way? The dogs aren't related, 1 is a American Bulldog and the other a pit. Neither dog is much to look at in the bitework, I think they take it too seriously and it's allot of pressure on them even when the decoys are trying to lighten it up.


My dog has given it up quite some time ago I was goofing on Connie replying to some of the goofy shit and questions.
My dog was young it would happen after drive building bite work after a tough session kicking the helpers ass
he would leave the field with the sleeve guess he just wanted to make sure there was no doubt who is king shit around here. 
To answer your question for my dog it was dominance and just putting the icing on the cake.


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## Mo Earle (Mar 1, 2008)

Howard and Bob, I changed my avatar...and how about I change Chico's grill-


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

FWIW, semantics is ALWAYS a problem in this type of discussion....sigh...

as to the OP's question, i'm not going to be good at putting this in words, ok? so don't crucify me. i see fear aggression in an animal whose kinda backing up by going forward in their body language, kind of tensed up, closed up body language i guess vs a dominantly aggressive animal is open, forward moving, ears up tail up open body language.

humpng a frickin' sleeve???? uh-uh, neuter the frickin dog, that's just not right....at least in a grown-up dog.


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## David Scholes (Jul 12, 2008)

Mike Scheiber said:


> A question for the group. How often have you seen fear aggression misdiagnosed as dominance aggression? Was wondering since it would seem like it would be a pretty common with so many "expert" trainers out there.
> This is the OP's question above
> My dog after some spirited bite work wants to hump the sleeve and on special occasions may ejaculate he's not growling if I called this behavior dominance aggression would I be misdiagnosing :-k


I found an interesting link to a book called "Gender Gap" that may help explain this:
http://books.google.com/books?id=ys...&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result

Was curious because I recall stories about aggressive behavior from Marines where they describe having an erection. Seemed very odd to me. Guess I've never experienced true aggression without fear. Anyway, this page describes a link between male aggression and sex.


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## Laura Bollschweiler (Apr 25, 2008)

There's a guy that sometimes trains with our group whose Am Bulldog female will hump the sleeve every time....she'll bite, carry, but when he stops, she starts the humping. Good thing he's a good-natured guy because the teasing is endless! Sometimes we just applaud. =D> 

Laura


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

ann freier said:


> FWIW, semantics is ALWAYS a problem in this type of discussion....sigh...
> 
> as to the OP's question, i'm not going to be good at putting this in words, ok? so don't crucify me. i see fear aggression in an animal whose kinda backing up by going forward in their body language, kind of tensed up, closed up body language i guess vs a dominantly aggressive animal is open, forward moving, ears up tail up open body language.
> 
> humpng a frickin' sleeve???? uh-uh, neuter the frickin dog, that's just not right....at least in a grown-up dog.


Ha not so fast we had a dog in our club a quite a number of years ago nasty bastard should have been in a police car but he wasn't.
Any way he was a humper he would hump wile the helper would lock up for a out this dog loved to fight had to be fair to this boy he would skip the leash and come right up in your face or where ever. He was also a Gary Korbelbach son during his protection critique SCHIII he started dry humping and ejaculated in the middle of his critique in front of all to see this was our regional trial. =D> Top it off the handler/owner was a Lutheran preacher. 
I can tell you this for sure put a muzzle on this dog and you would have been a black and blue mess.


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