# intelligence & cleanliness



## patricia powers (Nov 14, 2010)

this may seem like a dumb question, but its something i have been wondering about for a while. has anyone seen a corelation between intelligence & cleanliness? it seems as though most of my smarter dogs have also been cleaner. they potty train easily, don't soil their crates & when in a kennel they do their business in a corner & don't tromp thru it. some of my dogs have been horrible pigs, deficate anywhere in the kennel & turn it into a poop slide, soil their crates & it doesn't seem to bother them a bit. i am wondering if this has anything at all to do with the dam and how the pups develop while they are still with her. maybe i am clear off base with this, but wonder what others think about it. what about some of the highly trained working dogs or competition dogs? are they clean or do some of them soil their crates?
pjp


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Well, now that you mention it, I'll add that the cleanliness can be genetic. Thinking of one of my litters, the two unclean ones were also the ones I didn't think were very smart and didn't have what I wanted for a working dog. I have had one that I did raise and train. She was a good dog but not a fast learner. Very difficult to crate train until over a year old and have seen others similar from that line. When I first started in corgis someone told me that the cleanliness was genetic and I didn't believe her until I raised a couple of litters. You will see it in the whelping box when they are a 2-3 weeks old.

T


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Not convinced its genetic have recently seen a very very clean bitch have some of the dirtiest shit trampling dogs you want to see...I think some just dont care.


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## Alison Grubb (Nov 18, 2009)

I think that cleanliness can have a genetic factor. My male's family is typically pretty dirty up until they are about 1.5 years old. My male was true to that history and was pretty difficult to crate train. Even now cleanliness is more of an obedience exercise than something that he actually cares about. Conversely, I have a female out of the same sire who is hands down the cleanest dog that I have ever owned or worked with. She keeps both her crate and her kennel run clean with very little work from me or her previous owner ever required.

IMO, she is not any more intelligent than my male.


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## Haz Othman (Mar 25, 2013)

The breeder of my pup told me that he wont keep or breed a dirty or noisy dog..my pup practically came to me crate trained at 8 weeks has had maybe three accidents ever. I wouldnt be shocked if it was genetic. Who wants to keep a sh*% roller anyways?


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## patricia powers (Nov 14, 2010)

@ haz, if you don't mind, who is the breeder of your pup? what lines? my new pup is the same way----absolutely incredible. i have never seen a pup so clean. was practically crate trained from day one. he is 
out of yaspo kasfeld & jilly arne's hoeve. i am so happy with him. he's 3 mo now.
pjp


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## Haz Othman (Mar 25, 2013)

Nate Harves.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

brad robert said:


> Not convinced its genetic have recently seen a very very clean bitch have some of the dirtiest shit trampling dogs you want to see...I think some just dont care.


My bitch that produced the dirty puppies [two in the litter] was clean. Genetically, there is more in the gene pool than just the bitch.

T


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

All of my GSDs and both bouviers have been clean--would rather die than go in the house. I had an unexpected C-section with my son and my husband was gone for 30 hours. He called from the house to say there wasn't a drop anywhere. I think how you raise them can be a factor but I've seen the genetic factor. At 8 weeks, the corgi puppies are sleeping individually in their crates and when they go to their new homes, they are crate trained and leash broke. Of course this doesn't mean that the newbies don't muck it up somehow.

T


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> My bitch that produced the dirty puppies [two in the litter] was clean. Genetically, there is more in the gene pool than just the bitch.
> 
> T


 i realise that...same bitch few litters to much of a variation in the cleanliness of the dogs to be definitive


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## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

My male is exceptionally smart and by far my cleanest. If he's chasing a ball outside and all the sudden looks like he had a seizure and nearly falls it's because he had a near miss with a poop mine lol. If I haven't cleaned the yard recently, he walks the fence line to go out and comeback to avoid possible poop-confrontations. If a toy rolls over poop, even dry old poop he is done playing with it... If it lands within a few feet of poop, he creeps in and surgically removes the ball using only his incisors lol... Someday I'll get it on video lol


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

I DONT LIKE FINGER PAINTERS OR CRATE SHITTERS.

I also dont like dogs that are so clean that they work to avoid poop on the ground at all costs


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## Amber Scott Dyer (Oct 30, 2006)

if cleanliness is genetic - my current dog should never, ever reproduce. I have never had a dog that was as hard as he is to crate train/housebreak. He's also the easiest dog I've ever trained in ob and nosework, so I don't think it has anything to do with being smarter. He just doesn't give a crap about where he craps. 

It was so frustrating when he was younger. Everyone has these brilliant solutions on how to best potty train or crate train a dog, but no dice. I even took him to work with me every day so I could let him out every few hours, and it didn't help. every time someone from the club offered to take him, I would always say, "come by my house about six am when I'm cleaning up his sh**, and you can have his stupid ass for free!" ](*,) eventually I gave up and got him a powdercoated crate with a grate on casters and a tray underneath - now it just falls through the bottom and I have to clean that. 

I always thought it was because he was in concrete runs when I got him (about 14 weeks old). The runs were clean, but he could go wherever he wanted. Don't you think it makes sense that the cleanliness of a puppy has something to do with how it is kept? The cleanest dog I've ever had was bottleraised alone and never sat in poop or pee for any length of time, and I always attributed it to that. 

In that case, wouldn't the cleanliness of the puppy be a learned behavior from a mother that always kept them clean, not a genetic thing?


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Amber Scott said:


> if cleanliness is genetic - my current dog should never, ever reproduce. I have never had a dog that was as hard as he is to crate train/housebreak. He's also the easiest dog I've ever trained in ob and nosework, so I don't think it has anything to do with being smarter. He just doesn't give a crap about where he craps.
> 
> It was so frustrating when he was younger. Everyone has these brilliant solutions on how to best potty train or crate train a dog, but no dice. I even took him to work with me every day so I could let him out every few hours, and it didn't help. every time someone from the club offered to take him, I would always say, "come by my house about six am when I'm cleaning up his sh**, and you can have his stupid ass for free!" ](*,) eventually I gave up and got him a powdercoated crate with a grate on casters and a tray underneath - now it just falls through the bottom and I have to clean that.
> 
> ...


After watching this develop in the whelping box, I'm stuck on genetics. I think if they are genetically clean but raised nasty, you can fix it. I rescued a couple of puppy mill princesses that had spent years going whereever they stood and housebroke and crate trained them and they were as reliable as my dogs.

T


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## Zakia Days (Mar 13, 2009)

I'm with you Terrasita. From my observations it is ABSOLUTELY genetic, unless you have a handler/owner that is also "dirty" and allows this behavior. In fact you can just about tie it down to thee dog/bitch and see where it comes from. Or, set your watch to it. It is completely genetic, in my opinion from my personal observations.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I have to say this - but at 18 months' old, I apparently smeared the hall wallpaper with poop!

Seriously, most of my dogs were "hygienic" and only "pooped" outside. Most of them searched out a hillside to do it on.

I must say this thread can lead a lot to the working ability of a dog:grin::grin::grin:


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## Jon Harris (Nov 23, 2011)

Mad s certainly a smart dog BUT, he is not so clean. I have him in my rood 10x10 and he is with me all the time. Now when in his crate he stays clean ( thank goodness) but in the room I have to watch him. I take him out every couple of hours but if i miss it or am a little late it is a problem. I can be sitting in the chair working on the computer with him 2 feet behind me and it i dont hear his moving around i know he is pooping on the floor.

Heck he was playing with the ball i had it in my hand and he just looked at me and started peeing . So frustrating. No warning at all, When he wants to go he does period.


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## Amber Scott Dyer (Oct 30, 2006)

if it is genetic, seems that it is a trait that would stamp itself out over time. no one wants to work a dog that they can't keep in the back of a patrol car without it shi**ing everywhere. :lol:


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

i thought the Q was :
"has anyone seen a corelation between intelligence & cleanliness?"

i sure don't know how to answer cause i don't know how to compare the two and doubt it has ever been studied with any accuracy


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## Hunter Allred (Jan 28, 2010)

Amber Scott said:


> if it is genetic, seems that it is a trait that would stamp itself out over time. no one wants to work a dog that they can't keep in the back of a patrol car without it shi**ing everywhere. :lol:


Pickup truck... use the dog for particularly nasty badguys. you can "punji tooth" him with the dog and make the encounter just a little bit worse for the guy.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Jon Harris said:


> Mad s certainly a smart dog BUT, he is not so clean. I have him in my rood 10x10 and he is with me all the time. Now when in his crate he stays clean ( thank goodness) but in the room I have to watch him. I take him out every couple of hours but if i miss it or am a little late it is a problem. I can be sitting in the chair working on the computer with him 2 feet behind me and it i dont hear his moving around i know he is pooping on the floor.
> 
> Heck he was playing with the ball i had it in my hand and he just looked at me and started peeing . So frustrating. No warning at all, When he wants to go he does period.


With my rescues, I put them on a strict crate and potty schedule and slowly stretched out the duration along with scheduled food/water. Only after that were they loose. Sometimes there are recognizable triggers. Sometimes not.

T


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

another angle ...
felines vs canines

aside from being clean freaks, felines will take more care in burying/covering poop if they are more submissive and do not want their presence noted by others and vice versa if they are acting dominant and marking

do dogs bury poop ?
what about dogs who obsessively scratch the ground when they dump ?
dogs who walk thru it vice those who view poop as a land mine ?

or is that just because they are less of a predator than felines ?
but they still mark territory .... 
...someone mentioned once that their dog will raise its butt and poop high on a fence 

but what's the connection to intelligence ??
seems a bit trivial to discuss it but seems more like a dominance thing than an intelligence measure


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

rick smith said:


> another angle ...
> felines vs canines
> 
> aside from being clean freaks, felines will take more care in burying/covering poop if they are more submissive and do not want their presence noted by others and vice versa if they are acting dominant and marking
> ...


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## patricia powers (Nov 14, 2010)

thanks for all the replies, folks. so the general concensus is that intelligence has little to do with cleanliness, but genetics & environment possibly does have a bearing on cleanliness. i wasn't trying to prove any kind of a point, but just wanting to hear what others thought. 
pjp


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