# deer poop



## Rebecca Kuder

My mal likes to eat deer poop while trailing. I tell her to leave it and she gets right back to work, but in areas where there is a lot it frustrating. So my question for you guys is how would you go about training her not to eat it or even care about it. I have thought about doing exercises in between trailing and just walk through the woods with a prong collar on her and give a good correction for it. But just wanted more opinions on it first. Thanks


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## David Baker

e collar. Low stim but give a verbal correction with it.


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## Jim Delbridge

take the dog through areas most likely clean of human scent, but lots of deer activity. You can use an e-collar or a long-line. Correct on the distraction when not working the desired scent. If you know ahead of time where the deer droppings are, then set the dog up for correction. Your desire is the dog passes it on its own, but you have to give it the freedom to screw up so that you can correct it just prior to it self-rewarding. Correct before it can eat it. It's all timing.

That way, your scent training should be a much more positive experience if you've already created an aversion to the distraction.

Jim


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## Sarah Platts

what David said, but my question is what else does your dog eat off the ground? Just deer poop or other stuff such as other animal poop or food items? Also did you train by putting food on the ground to teach the dog to stay on the track?


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## rick smith

not sure what specific types of trailing you are doing, but for starters, i would collect a lot and train at home first. with the poop and other food distractors.

just guessing, but there might be other issues that need work that are contributing to the "trail counter surfing"
- the obvious "corrections" might not get to the root of the problem

- you mentioned some preliminary work with hot dogs and tracking and got a lot of good advice and were asked some specific additional questions by some knowledgeable SAR people. is the poop a more recent problem ?

keep us posted whatever you try; it's not an uncommon problem

btw, what has your SAR group advised so far regarding the problem ? are they still telling you a Mal is a bad match for what you want to do ?


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## Rebecca Kuder

Sarah Platts said:


> what David said, but my question is what else does your dog eat off the ground? Just deer poop or other stuff such as other animal poop or food items? Also did you train by putting food on the ground to teach the dog to stay on the track?


At the very beginning of her training we did lay tracks with food, but havent done that in 6 months or so. She is all food drive she loves any thing even remotely edible. She does eat things off the ground but usually while training its poo.


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## Jim Delbridge

What is the reward at the end? With some dogs that are high food drive, if you start them on the trail with hot dogs then you need to have a big food reward at the find. If the end reward is a tug or ball or the victim, you might add food back in. I know some trailers that instead of putting hot dogs down they will put a can of dog food in a sock and then slap the ground with the sock where they'd have put hot dogs instead. The food scent gets the dog's attention to the human scent, but they are not rewarded till the end.

Jim


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## Rebecca Kuder

My team supports me, it really wasnt my team that sparked the question about my dog it was another individual that has years of experience. We do a big food reward at the end, and nothing on the track anymore. She has been progressing nicely but I want to nip the poop eating in the bud before it becomes a big issue.


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## mel boschwitz

Refresh me on how old your dog is and how long has she been training? Is deer poop her only issue or are their other things that distract her on the trail? How long are the trails and how often does she get to frustrating issues? Are those frustrating moments the same type of trail problem or does it vary? If she's working an "easy" trail will she ignore deer poop?

That being said I would still do low ecollar stim, preferable away from trailing to start, then incorporated into an easy trail with victim real close so she doesnt shut down. But it may just be a small part of other things that are going on. It's still gotta be fixed, and sooner rather than later, but if it's a symptom of other issues something else may crop up in its place.

Fresh cow poop was my female bh's downfall. Didnt matter what else was going on, she was determined to stop for a snack. E collar away from work then during a few easy trails and it was no longer a problem. She WILL snack when we r just walking on the collar, but not if she's working. :roll:


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## Joby Becker

mel boschwitz said:


> She WILL snack when we r just walking on the collar, but not if she's working. :roll:


cant win em all


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## Bob Scott

Rabbit turds were my older dog's candy but luckily he ignored it when working. His drive and focus on a search was excellent. He could damn near get run over by a deer and ignore it.


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## mel boschwitz

Joby Becker said:


> cant win em all


As long as she's just on her collar I'm not TOO concerned what she does. "Goofing off" after a search or training is part of her reward. I paired the e-collar with a "leave it" command so I can call her off at any time. 

Who woulda thought mushy fresh cow pattie would taste so good???  She ignores the old stuff.


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## rick smith

you said your team "supports" you, but you didn't say what they have advised regarding this problem. that's what i wanted to hear about.
- for me, support means giving me advise when i have a problem


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## Rebecca Kuder

I haven't really asked my team yet. I figured I could get a lot more feedback here faster since I have been working all week. I could post here on my downtime.


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## Nancy Jocoy

I just spent a lot of time in the woods with mine when he was a puppy and deer poo was "leave it" so many times he got the idea and now it is not a big deal. 

I am not sure I would use an aversive.....what if your victim through the poo (well not footstep but the trail went by it) would that possibly throw her off / cause doubt. Just asking, don't know. EDIT, I did do the Castle e-collar crittering protocol with a game chaser, though....and that did not seem to mess her up.


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## mel boschwitz

Nancy, mine trails right over it, no hesitation. The "leave it" is for snacking only. 

Good point though in emphasizing the timing of the e-collar. You could definately create an aversion to being near it (like snake proofing). I used it as a back up to "leave it". She was so intent on snacking that she blew me off completely, hard headed jack a $$ that she is. Lol.


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## Nancy Jocoy

Well that is a good point. The dog I trained for crittering could comfortably walk around farm animals after the training. The timing of the correction was for the momentary "freeze and stare" - Had I corrected her every time she went near a prey animal it could have backfired. I think that is part of the beauty and the danger of e-collars. Such a powerful tool that it is so easy to mis-use.


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## rick smith

this always puzzles me :
we have people who come here looking for dog advice.
often the first response is to "find a club". often good advice imo

in a way, you have already done that. good move

so wouldn't it be logical to FIRST ask your closest resource what to do and then come here if it didn't work ?

why bypass them ? to get a quicker answer may not be the best way. we can't see you and your dog together. your group can
- we will ask a lot more questions to try and see the forest thru the trees. your resource doesn't need to do that
- the advice here may be "correct", but it has to be based on unknowns, and may not always be sufficient if the dog/owner can't be observed, and i thought you had already mentioned something about not being able to provide video. 

that's why i asked you, and based on what you have just written, i would still like you to get feedback from them and then relay it here too 
- i'm sure you will still get lots of advice here


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## Sarah Platts

Rebecca Kuder said:


> My team supports me, it really wasnt my team that sparked the question about my dog it was another individual that has years of experience. We do a big food reward at the end, and nothing on the track anymore. She has been progressing nicely but I want to nip the poop eating in the bud before it becomes a big issue.


My take (your mileage will vary) is that by putting food on the track - no matter how long ago - you have conditioned the dog that it's o.k. to eat what it finds along the way. I suspect that the dog is using the deer poop as surrogate hotdogs for rewarding purposes. I'm not discounting that there could be some natural attraction which is why I asked if the dog was eating other animal poop. 

Your food reward at the end, especially should not be on the ground. If it's not in the hands of your victim then it needs to be coming from you. Put a scent article of the person at the end to make a definite end point but food needs to come from a human. The backstory on this is that the greatest value of trailing dogs is in urban environments. In urban situations, there is food or food discards pretty much every where you go. Even if you phase out the food, the conditioning is still there and now the handler has the additional problem of correcting the product of their own training. Jim's idea of putting food into a sock and slapping the ground is a very good one. 

When you first start using an e-collar for the poop eating do it away from trailing initially. If you begin the correction while trailing, the dog could take it as a correction for the scent work and not the poop eating. Cue it to a specific command ("leave it") and work on the command and poop eating outside of sar and then, if you did it properly when you bring it into sar, the dog will take the correction in the proper context: 'leave it' and not doing so results in a correction for not obeying 'leave it' versus the scent work.

I would suggest to also ask you teammates but one of the major problems is that if they have not had to correct the problem with their dog they may not know how to correct with yours. So it's o.k. to ask around just remember that what worked for one dog may require some tweaking to work on a different dog. A suggestion from one person may not be appropriate depending on the dog's character (hard, soft, etc) To soft may not be effective, to hard can shut a dog down. You know your dog, gauge it accordingly.


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## Sarah Platts

My dogs like to eat calf or lamb scours and love to roll in human shit. I can't tell you how many times they have come back stinking and having crap plastered to their collars. What I wouldn't give to have a dog that *only* ate deer poop. :razz:


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## Nancy Jocoy

Cyra was an avowed dog poop eater. One day I was rushing around and left some poops I had snatched up with a glove within reach (I guess she knocked the cover off of my bucket)

Went to the vet sometime later for a procedure and I got a call. "Uh your dog seems fine but there is this strange purple stuff, lots of it, in her poop."

:headslap:


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## Gerald Guay

An old houndman's trick.

Pick up a lot of deer poop, put it inside a old nylon sock and tape it to the dogs collar but so she cannot access it. Leave for a week or so. See what happens after that. 

GG


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## Nancy Jocoy

Well hounds are kind of dumb.....a GSD or a malinois would figure out a way to get the bag off.


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## Howard Gaines III

Poop on the poop...it's a hard one to beat as my GSDs eat it all the time. An e-collar and yell out LEAVE IT might work. This technique kept my GSN from chasing rabbits...


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## Sarah Platts

Gerald Guay said:


> An old houndman's trick.


Old houndman's trick probably works with hounds....... doesn't with gsp's


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## Bob Scott

Gerald Guay said:


> An old houndman's trick.
> 
> Pick up a lot of deer poop, put it inside a old nylon sock and tape it to the dogs collar but so she cannot access it. Leave for a week or so. See what happens after that.
> 
> GG



My hunting partner had chickens on her place to help control ticks.
One of her hunting Jagd terriers started killing chickens. She caught the dog killing one (setup) and tied it around the dog's neck. Mid summer with temps in the 90s daily. By the third day that dog was strutting around like the king of the world, wearing Chanell #5. 
She tried another "old Houndman's trick" by putting a live chicken in a barrel with the dog and rolling it down a hill. Whe she got to the barrel and opened it the dog came staggering out like a drunken sailor......with the now dead chicken firmly in it's mouth.


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## Meg O'Donovan

Bob Scott said:


> My hunting partner had chickens on her place to help control ticks.
> One of her hunting Jagd terriers started killing chickens. She caught the dog killing one (setup) and tied it around the dog's neck. Mid summer with temps in the 90s daily. .


When I was a kid, we got a border collie that began to kill chickens. A dead chook was hung around his neck until it rotted off, but it didn't break him of the bad habit. He ended up being shot, which is unfortunately the way most chicken or stock killers are dealt with in these parts. Once the dog gets a taste for killing, I've never seen one unlearn it. So around here, either people keep them contained or chained, or they eventually get shot. 
Did the Jagdterrier ever learn to resist killing chickens?


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## rick smith

those "nasty abusive shock collars" have probably saved a few dog's lives, so imo their pain was ultimately their gain 

my house dog had killed at least two cats before it came here.
but we have five house cats. fortunately they have been raised around a lot of dogs. but it was still a long process with the new addition; about six months of daily work b4 it could be off lead for any time inside the house. started the training process outside with local feral cats. zero tolerance for even looking at one
- prey drive for other critters (mice rats weasels, etc) is the same and will chase/catch/kill/eat, but it learned that cats are not to be Fked with. so at least in this one case i have seen how certain prey items can be put off limits

i used a combo of containment/strong corrections/Ecollar


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## Howard Gaines III

Bantams and dogs...never an issue with the dogs trying to get them. All free range and only the hawks got them. Understand that if there was something that never lived here...different story, FUBAR! :twisted:


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## Sarah Platts

I tried an 'old dog trainer's trick' that was suppose to break a dog of sheep chasing. Stuck the young puppy in a stall with a ewe who had a young lamb. That ewe rolled the puppy around the stall and when we opened the gate that pup couldn't get out of there fast enough. Didn't cure the sheep chasing. It took one of those evil e-collars to fix it. 

For the next puppy I contacted some sar folks in England who gave me better advice to deal with the issue.


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## Bob Scott

" Once the dog gets a taste for killing, I've never seen one unlearn it"


Toss a terrier in that equation and you can multiply that in quantum leaps.


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## rick smith

Meg and Bob

re: "Once the dog gets a taste for killing, I've never seen one unlearn it."

how many kills are required before the taste is considered learned ?


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## Sarah Platts

rick smith said:


> how many kills are required before the taste is considered learned ?


In my case, One, once they had mastered the learning curve.


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## rick smith

ok, i'll fess up; i had an agenda when i posted
meaning i do NOT believe the "taste for killing" statement is true

- i posted my example of one dog who definitely killed at least two cats who is now 100% SAFE around cats
- but i also know first hand of dogs who have killed dogs that were "fixed" of this so called learned killer preference ...

not gonna debate it, but can't understand how anyone reading this thread would believe it to be true unless they figured people like me are lying //lol//
- if you want to cull a problem dog, that is your option. in the "old days" that was done a lot. 
- but doesn't make it correct; just means it's an old solution ](*,)
- and doesn't mean it can't be fixed ](*,)

- imo it's not the only way, and imo shouldn't be done without getting help from someone first who has had that experience and corrected it

tunnel vision is often learned in a tunnel. but it's only effective in very specific situations


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## Jim Delbridge

One has to be careful about absolutes. My goal is always that my dogs don't kill MY cats. When we moved onto our six acres back in 1995, our neighbor to the south had a huge feral cat problem. I tried to be nice and offered to help live trap the cats with a free spay/neuter by the wife on any we caught. His response was "Nyah, let nature take care of them." Soon after that I had Worf come into my life. He had the run of my six acres and often greeted me in the morning with half of a cat carcass. I would thank him, bag it, and toss it into the animal freezer for cremation. Over the years I always communicated that the indoor cats were off-limits. I did the same with my (now) geriatric pointer. Both dogs can/could be totally trusted in the house out-of-sight with the cats. At one time we had one outdoor cat that was 18 lbs of muscle. He was taken by an owl at dusk, so there after the wife said all cats had to stay inside. Since then, all of my dogs have killed a cat outside at one time or other, but my cats indoors are off-limits. 

As for my neighbor, about a year later he called me over and told me that Nature did indeed take care of the feral cat problem. At that time I introduced him to Worf Also Known As Nature. Dogs, just like us, know "there are rules and then there are rules." It's easy to create an aversion in your presence. It's another challenge to create a solid aversion when the dog thinks it is all on its own.

Jim Delbridge


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## Bob Scott

rick smith said:


> Meg and Bob
> 
> re: "Once the dog gets a taste for killing, I've never seen one unlearn it."
> 
> how many kills are required before the taste is considered learned ?



I think the dogs are often hard wired for it. I've see 12-14 wk old JRTs that have never had the opportunity, catch and kill rats. 
Many, many dogs will give chase to a critter yet when that critter stops the dog goes into total avoidance.


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## Bob Scott

Jim Delbridge said:


> One has to be careful about absolutes. My goal is always that my dogs don't kill MY cats. When we moved onto our six acres back in 1995, our neighbor to the south had a huge feral cat problem. I tried to be nice and offered to help live trap the cats with a free spay/neuter by the wife on any we caught. His response was "Nyah, let nature take care of them." Soon after that I had Worf come into my life. He had the run of my six acres and often greeted me in the morning with half of a cat carcass. I would thank him, bag it, and toss it into the animal freezer for cremation. Over the years I always communicated that the indoor cats were off-limits. I did the same with my (now) geriatric pointer. Both dogs can/could be totally trusted in the house out-of-sight with the cats. At one time we had one outdoor cat that was 18 lbs of muscle. He was taken by an owl at dusk, so there after the wife said all cats had to stay inside. Since then, all of my dogs have killed a cat outside at one time or other, but my cats indoors are off-limits.
> 
> As for my neighbor, about a year later he called me over and told me that Nature did indeed take care of the feral cat problem. At that time I introduced him to Worf Also Known As Nature. Dogs, just like us, know "there are rules and then there are rules." It's easy to create an aversion in your presence. It's another challenge to create a solid aversion when the dog thinks it is all on its own.
> 
> Jim Delbridge



Jim, I've seen this quite often. I hunted with terriers for a number of yrs and many of the people I hunted with had house cats. THEIR dogs got along with THEIR cats but strange cats were almost always a totally different issue. I never had cats but my terriers could be around them ONLY if I was right there.
When hunting barn rats or helping control raccoon problem in barns we often had to be cautious about barn cats. The dog looked at them as fair game.


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## rick smith

lots of exceptions to every rule.
persistent training can accomplish a lot with dogs. and one of the main reasons they are dogs and not wild animals 

not all dogs who get a taste for killing will be killers the rest of their life. there are so many real world examples of this i find it strange that it would ever be posted on a forum like this

all i did was give an example of what Jim posted :
"One has to be careful about absolutes."

i'm not a fan of tunnel vision unless your life depends on it 

but i also doubt anyone on this forum who has an opinion will ever change it based on what they read here //lol//

amen


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## Joby Becker

rick smith said:


> lots of exceptions to every rule.
> persistent training can accomplish a lot with dogs. and one of the main reasons they are dogs and not wild animals
> 
> not all dogs who get a taste for killing will be killers the rest of their life. there are so many real world examples of this i find it strange that it would ever be posted on a forum like this
> 
> all i did was give an example of what Jim posted :
> "One has to be careful about absolutes."
> 
> i'm not a fan of tunnel vision unless your life depends on it
> 
> but i also doubt anyone on this forum who has an opinion will ever change it based on what they read here //lol//
> 
> amen


my opinions have changed or been altered by my experiences on here sometimes..


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## Bob Scott

Ditto here! 
When I stop learning I'll have 6ft of dirt in my face.......that is unless my wife does me in. I doubt she'll dig that deep. :wink:


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## Sarah Platts

Bob Scott said:


> that is unless my wife does me in. I doubt she'll dig that deep. :wink:


Don't bother digging...... Tell your wife to call me. Always need new training material.


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## mel boschwitz

Sarah Platts said:


> Don't bother digging...... Tell your wife to call me. Always need new training material.


Sarah, I was thinking the same thing. Lol. Why waste good source?


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## Joby Becker

post your 70's porn look first though Bob  before you die of "natural" causes


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## Jim Leon

this is in reply to the original poster asking for a cure to dog eating deer shit.
dig a hole about 2' deep.
gather up some deer shit and put it in the hole.
fill up a few 5 gallon containers with water and set them up near the hole.
bring out your dog on a long line.
let him go to the hole and start in on the deer shit.
once he's got a good mouthful, run over to the hole without saying anything.
quickly fill the hole with the water.
grab the dog by the collar, stick his head in the water filled hole.
as your holding his head in the water, listen close to his breathing.
you want him to think he's drowning because he has a mouthful of deer shit, but you don't want him to actually drown to death.
let him up when he's had enough.
again, don't say anything just act natural like everything is fine.
put the dog up for an hour then bring him out again to a pile of deer shit.
it's guaranteed he won't go near it.
That should probably cure him of eating any kind of animal shit and digging holes too.


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## Bob Scott

Joby Becker said:


> post your 70's porn look first though Bob  before you die of "natural" causes



I'd rather die! :lol: :lol::lol:


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## Nancy Jocoy

Just think, if they bury you in a 70s polyester leisure suit it will never rot. It will be just like the VW Beetle in the cave in Sleeper.


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## Bob Scott

Nancy Jocoy said:


> Just think, if they bury you in a 70s polyester leisure suit it will never rot. It will be just like the VW Beetle in the cave in Sleeper.



I'm going on the compost pile......nekid! :grin: :grin:


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## Joby Becker

Jim Leon said:


> this is in reply to the original poster asking for a cure to dog eating deer shit.
> dig a hole about 2' deep.
> gather up some deer shit and put it in the hole.
> fill up a few 5 gallon containers with water and set them up near the hole.
> bring out your dog on a long line.
> let him go to the hole and start in on the deer shit.
> once he's got a good mouthful, run over to the hole without saying anything.
> quickly fill the hole with the water.
> grab the dog by the collar, stick his head in the water filled hole.
> as your holding his head in the water, listen close to his breathing.
> you want him to think he's drowning because he has a mouthful of deer shit, but you don't want him to actually drown to death.
> let him up when he's had enough.
> again, don't say anything just act natural like everything is fine.
> put the dog up for an hour then bring him out again to a pile of deer shit.
> it's guaranteed he won't go near it.
> That should probably cure him of eating any kind of animal shit and digging holes too.


do you think the dog will not notice the buckets of water, that you are dumping the buckets of water in there? or that he is actually possibly gonna drown in a hole filled with water that you filled and stuffed his head while he spits out the deer poop?

I am not doubting that this may very well cure the problem, but that would be one dumbass dog that would think it was just drowning on a mouthful of deer poop.

I have used this method, for hole digging with a dog that was strictly a pet dog, about 20 years ago, it did work, straight Koehler method, but I would not use this method personally with a working dog, or maybe never again...who knows...

lets not kid ourselves the dog knows exactly what the fukk is going on when this is done. Just like he knows what is going on when I whack him over the muzzle with a piece of garden hose for being an aggressive A-Hole.

have you ever tried this method? for eating stuff? seems like a terrible idea all the way around to me. or was this supposed to be funny


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## Sarah Platts

Jim Leon said:


> this is in reply to the original poster asking for a cure to dog eating deer shit.
> dig a hole about 2' deep.
> gather up some deer shit and put it in the hole.
> fill up a few 5 gallon containers with water and set them up near the hole.
> bring out your dog on a long line.
> let him go to the hole and start in on the deer shit.
> once he's got a good mouthful, run over to the hole without saying anything.
> quickly fill the hole with the water.
> grab the dog by the collar, stick his head in the water filled hole.
> as your holding his head in the water, listen close to his breathing.
> you want him to think he's drowning because he has a mouthful of deer shit, but you don't want him to actually drown to death.
> let him up when he's had enough.
> again, don't say anything just act natural like everything is fine.
> put the dog up for an hour then bring him out again to a pile of deer shit.
> it's guaranteed he won't go near it.
> That should probably cure him of eating any kind of animal shit and digging holes too.


First, I'm thinking of the time and mechanics involved. Puppy might be one thing but a mostly grown one? The time it takes to see the eating, dumping over a couple of buckets, catch the dog (unless you have him on a leash and then you still have to drag him to the hole), try and wrestle with a 40-50lb half-grown (or more if grown) dog to the hole and then either flip the dog or wrestle get that head under water. And hold it there. And you don't think the dog doesn't realize what is happening? Or connect you to the event? When you're the one shoving his head under? Seriously?

All that dog has learned is to not get near it when you are around. 

Have you tried this? What was the age and breed of the dog involved? Does it work even when you are not around?


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## Nancy Jocoy

An old teammate used to swear by tying up a deer gland in a sack (to prevent running deer) to an electric fence......dog sniffed it......zap.

Guess whose dog went missing for two days after running a deer?


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## Kat Hunsecker

correcting is one option. But it sounds to me there is not enough drive to want to get to the end!
Maybe too much track, maybe bored on the track, maybe self rewarding.
Before I would go around correcting the crap out of her, I would try to reevaluate why she starts it in the first place. Where is the motivation to get to the end?
My dogs love eating poop, chase squirrels etc, but when it is time to work it seldom happens, because they are focused on the task.
My latest best one loved giving deer a quick chase or eat their pop on the field, but when it was OB time, I didn't have an issue, nor did I have an issue when we were out searching. Even chipmunks were out of the chase. because she knew her task. 
Of course at the beginning were times, when they think it gets boring and start other stuff. then it is up to you to make it more interesting again.


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## Jim Delbridge

Jim Leon said:


> this is in reply to the original poster asking for a cure to dog eating deer shit.
> dig a hole about 2' deep.
> gather up some deer shit and put it in the hole.
> fill up a few 5 gallon containers with water and set them up near the hole.
> bring out your dog on a long line.
> let him go to the hole and start in on the deer shit.
> once he's got a good mouthful, run over to the hole without saying anything.
> quickly fill the hole with the water.
> grab the dog by the collar, stick his head in the water filled hole.
> as your holding his head in the water, listen close to his breathing.
> you want him to think he's drowning because he has a mouthful of deer shit, but you don't want him to actually drown to death.
> let him up when he's had enough.
> again, don't say anything just act natural like everything is fine.
> put the dog up for an hour then bring him out again to a pile of deer shit.
> it's guaranteed he won't go near it.
> That should probably cure him of eating any kind of animal shit and digging holes too.


This is one of the reasons that Koehler got such a bad name. This "cough" cure was a possible fix for dogs that dug. The point was to put their feces in the hole. If like many dogs would do, the dog simply dug its own poop out and scattered it over the yard, then the fill the hole with water and suggest drowning the dog idea came about. I really can't attribute the second phase to Koehler, but I know lots of dog handlers 20 YEARS AGO were pushing this as a good thing to try. 

Owning terriers renowned for "go to earth" meaning they hunt vermin in the ground, the only viable option I can see for this foolishness is to imagine someone else trying....sort of like that idea of stuffing a turkey with unpopped popcorn and baking it that came out 15 years back. Oddly enough, the ******* contingent chose to zip right past and go to trying to cook frozen turkeys in hot peanut oil at 375'F...a really explosive idea.

The whole process describe above simply convinces the dog that it has a psycho for human. Said humans tend to try to convince me the dog knows better as it always looks so guilty when they get home to find a pile of feces in the middle of their rug. No amount of conversation on my part will convince them that the dog is really demonstrating that it has determined that their human plus old pile of feces tends to cause a truly stupid episode of their nose shoved in the old poop, a slapping of behind, and being thrown out into the back yard with much yelling. That the dog has no association with pooping there 3 hours back because the human left for work in a hurry rather than let it out after eating is totally coincidental in both the human and dogs' minds.

Thanks for letting me vent though. I enjoyed it.

Jim Delbridge


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## Joby Becker

Jim Delbridge said:


> This is one of the reasons that Koehler got such a bad name. This "cough" cure was a possible fix for dogs that dug. The point was to put their feces in the hole. If like many dogs would do, the dog simply dug its own poop out and scattered it over the yard, then the fill the hole with water and suggest drowning the dog idea came about. I really can't attribute the second phase to Koehler, but I know lots of dog handlers 20 YEARS AGO were pushing this as a good thing to try.
> 
> Owning terriers renowned for "go to earth" meaning they hunt vermin in the ground, the only viable option I can see for this foolishness is to imagine someone else trying....sort of like that idea of stuffing a turkey with unpopped popcorn and baking it that came out 15 years back. Oddly enough, the ******* contingent chose to zip right past and go to trying to cook frozen turkeys in hot peanut oil at 375'F...a really explosive idea.
> 
> The whole process describe above simply convinces the dog that it has a psycho for human. Said humans tend to try to convince me the dog knows better as it always looks so guilty when they get home to find a pile of feces in the middle of their rug. No amount of conversation on my part will convince them that the dog is really demonstrating that it has determined that their human plus old pile of feces tends to cause a truly stupid episode of their nose shoved in the old poop, a slapping of behind, and being thrown out into the back yard with much yelling. That the dog has no association with pooping there 3 hours back because the human left for work in a hurry rather than let it out after eating is totally coincidental in both the human and dogs' minds.
> 
> Thanks for letting me vent though. I enjoyed it.
> 
> Jim Delbridge


Jim it did work when I did it, dog was a bad digger at the fenceline, never dug a hole again after that. 

would I recommend it... never? would I do it again....prolly not....


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## rick smith

re: "it did work when I did it, dog was a bad digger at the fenceline, never dug a hole again after that. "
- perfect example of how a technique can work

and for many techniques, there are always many people who say if it works than it is good. ends justifies means.

and sometimes it might only take one rep and the unwanted behavior is extinguished. sometimes a quick hard correction will work quicker and faster too

all this means is there are more than one way to train and of course it depends on the dog in front of you and what your overall system is. and imo it's not always clear cut which is "better" or "worse". that will often depends on the total picture (dog temperament) and whatever else that might have been "trained" in the process that wasn't intended //lol//

..... then there will be those who claim this is just overthinking the whole training process 

but the best example i always use is the time many years ago when my wife attacked her akita who was all over a postal worker. there was a big stick nearby; she grabbed it and beat on the dog as hard as she could.
- dog never bothered a postal worker again
- based on that, it is hard to convince her there might be a "better" way to stop unwanted dog aggression


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## Jim Delbridge

yea yea, timing and opportunity are much more important than any magic cure. My wife the vet still thinks that slapping electronics hard will fix them more often than not. As an electrical engineer, it does me no good to tell her there are rarely any old potentiometers in the box to knock dust out of to improve contact. I did get to impress a new customer a few months back when I saw their magic test box failing because they had such an old pot on it. I tapped it and it worked just fine. I smiled and exclaimed, "just like in Harry Potter!...... now, lets go to Radio Crap and buy you a new pot, aye?"

I do believe that if you can provide a negative stimulus at just the right time (Out of No Where) that you can fix a behavior, but explaining how to do it to a dog owner can be humorous at best....."Ok, so this is what you do when the postal carrier walks by the fence hole...you climb on your roof and lay in wait with your coffee can...oh, gotta find a metal coffee can...you don't drink coffee except from Starbucks...ok, go to Lowe's and buy a brand new sterile quart paint can...fill it with nuts and bolts...you don't collect nuts and bolts???? really??....got gravel? ok, fill it half-full with gravel and seal it.....now lay in wait up on your roof...no, the dog can't know you are there. When the mail carrier walks by, you have to wait just till the dog picks up the mail carrier's scent then launch the can at the dog to land between the mail carrier and the dog.....no, hitting the mail carrier is not a good idea....yes, if you are a lousy throw, a spare can might be good, but the dog can't know you are up there and if the can lands it will look around...can you lay on the roof downwind....downwind? the wind is blowing in your face such that the dog can't smell you....yes, I'd lay off the Channell No 7 for the day....*sigh*"

Believe it or not, this is better than a stim-collar because the dog does figure out the buzz comes from you eventually, but if you want to invest $1500 for a decent one to fix barking at the mail man...you paid $50 for the dog? no kidding, wow................


Jim


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## Nancy Jocoy

Oh God flashbacks of an electrical interfacing class I took for chemists.

Bad Boys Rape Our Young Girls But Violet Gives Willingly.

Once made some earrings out of resistors. Well I am guessing the pot application here is as a variable resistor...its been awhile. The folks at Radio Crap don't know shit anymore. They used to understand electronics. Did rebuild a broken HPLC once though .......and built a photon counting system.

Just figure it is about as relevant as anything else on the thread by now


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## Jim Delbridge

I still get to use that acronym on military circuit packs from time to time.

The local Radio Crap manager likes to send his new people my way when I casually walk back to the parts cabinet if they happen to have something I can use. They have a nickname for me, "Pre-calculator", because I told them I learned math before calculators. It's truly scarey what they don't teach them in school these days.

It is appropriate as most people tend to take a similar attitude towards their dog training as their gadgets, i.e. the dogs should come "plug-n-play" right from the breeder. Nothing a good thumping on the human won't fix to put the dog to rights.

Jim


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## Sarah Platts

My laptop cord and adaptor failed the new K9 interface session. Now I have to get a new one..... Just wish it had been carrying a charge at the time to see if wet contact would terminate future self testing.


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## Joby Becker

Sarah Platts said:


> My laptop cord and adaptor failed the new K9 interface session. Now I have to get a new one..... Just wish it had been carrying a charge at the time to see if wet contact would terminate future self testing.


it wont... im on a nw 110 V bucket cord "again"


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## Jim Leon

In retrospect, you're right. The method I described is far too labor intensive and probably would only work on a very dumb and slow dog. I retract it. To the original poster, if you already went ahead and tried the method I described and it didn't work, I apologize. But I did only say it should work, not would work.

Instead, I would like to endorse the method previously described as the old houndsman's way.
fill a sock with deer shit, put it in his mouth and tie it up with a pair of nylon's so he can't spit it out. Leave him like that for two hours or so and that will most likely cure him.


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