# These weak show dogs!



## Jehane Michael Le Grange (Feb 24, 2009)

Just a small video of one of our training sessions, messing about with a show line GSD. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UizlP-dft1w&feature=plcp

Basically we are priming this dog for personal protection work, and Schutzhund. Already has his breed survey for life and has bitten on 2 occasions at our national GSD breed show here in South Africa and won prizes for Excellence in Protection Work on both occasions.

The aim of the exercise we were doing in the video was basically taking your standard domestic object guard and messing around with it to test the dog's willingness to be attentive towards a helper approaching without any equipment or stimulus, testing his willingness to ignore standard bitework equipment equipment that is thrown around him, to assess his control within the guarding phase while under new distractions and to see his engagement when the parcel is removed. 

We then just assess his willingness to engage a helper when his handler is interfered with and finally just give him a back up bite. This video was filmed earlier last year. This dog is now on a hidden sleeve and doing more advanced protection and stress orientated exercises in off field environments while still continuing with his schutzhund 1 training. Also a very stable dog in the home environment. 

Let me know what you think. Please don't try explain to me why a working or sport line dog is better, I already know that  we were just having some fun with the dogs I train. Rotts, Showline GSD's and sportline ones


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## Gerald Dunn (Sep 24, 2011)

how old is the dog, nice


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

thanks for sharing the video...


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## Jehane Michael Le Grange (Feb 24, 2009)

Hi Guys he is just over 3 years old now, unfortunately he should have had his SchH aaages ago but his owner has alot of dogs so we haven't titled him yet and also by doing work for the show ring the schutzhund has taken a back seat abit. we also probably dont have as many trials as in the states, our town usually only has 2-3 at most a year. All the protection work is there, the obedience needs some work on the retrieves and the tracking needs more work without food. I just like the dogs hardness and ability to deal with stress. Think its missing in the showlines. I will try post some videos of scenarios we set up to test the dogs stress.


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## Kirk Russell (Aug 2, 2010)

I like the video he is a nice dog.


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## Jehane Michael Le Grange (Feb 24, 2009)

he is out of the Panjo von Kirschental lines I think. Mother was imported to SA from Germany while she was pregnant. I have 2 really super super showline dogs I train (this is one of them). The others that I train are definitely above average as well. I rate them on their ability to be civil and maintain their bitework under stress and stay clear headed as the situation dictates. I think thats what is missing in your modern day show lines. This male is unfortunately not quite as drivey on a toy or ball as I would like but does retrieve it easily enough. The other showline dog I am refering to is extremely high in drive for anything that moves and has a very very stable civil side.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Has he ever seen a bite suit?


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## Jehane Michael Le Grange (Feb 24, 2009)

He has been on the suit, no hesitation from the first bite. Arm grips mainly and then a few where we kind of made sure he could only hit the tricep by presenting it to him while on a bungy to begin targeting. Again just fooling around. We try stay away from conventional pattern sports work so we like to throw curve balls at the dogs and see how they react rather than babying them with the same stuff over and over and then tell everyone how great they are. Dog needs to bite anyone, any where at any time in any condition to be labelled a great biting dog  I will post some video soon where we do the stress testing and work at night in buildings and then also some where we try distract the dog with bite equipment and he ignores it and bites on a hidden sleeve (not presented in the bite position). I don't have too much doubt that he will bite live especially since he is very aggro in his home environment without any aggitation, but I believe only once he has had his first live bite can anyone really be sure.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Jehane

Nobody said all showline GSD's were weak. Just most of them :-(
This dog is the exception that proves the rule. My male GSD
Gwrgenau vom Himmelhoch has Ollie vom Kirschental as grand dam on his mothers side.


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## ntuthuko gumede (Jan 25, 2012)

Great vid Jehane \\/


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Jehane Michael Le Grange said:


> He has been on the suit, no hesitation from the first bite. Arm grips mainly and then a few where we kind of made sure he could only hit the tricep by presenting it to him while on a bungy to begin targeting. Again just fooling around. We try stay away from conventional pattern sports work so we like to throw curve balls at the dogs and see how they react rather than babying them with the same stuff over and over and then tell everyone how great they are. Dog needs to bite anyone, any where at any time in any condition to be labelled a great biting dog  I will post some video soon where we do the stress testing and work at night in buildings and then also some where we try distract the dog with bite equipment and he ignores it and bites on a hidden sleeve (not presented in the bite position). I don't have too much doubt that he will bite live especially since he is very aggro in his home environment without any aggitation, but I believe only once he has had his first live bite can anyone really be sure.


plan to work him in muzzle attacks on civil person?


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## Jehane Michael Le Grange (Feb 24, 2009)

I know Thomas  Agree one hundred percent. Just used the title to intrigue people  The dog in my pic had enough live bites to prove that there are some show dogs that work. 80% of the dogs I train are show dogs and I don't train dogs that are weak so I guess that means there are some really good working ones still around.


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## Jehane Michael Le Grange (Feb 24, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> plan to work him in muzzle attacks on civil person?


Would love too, just need to get a decent muzzle...this is Africa unfortunately. We have plastic muzzles here that were designed to stop dogs biting people and not designed to be used for bashing helpers so I would need to organise a decent one. Sure we will get there. Just really want to put a IPO title on this dog so he has something to show for it. Its like being super clever but not having a high school diploma while others cheat I guess. Means nothing but without it people don't take you seriously anyway.

There are alot of dogs here that have SchH titles yet at our breed show nationals run away from the helpers. So it raises the questions on their titles in the first place I guess. Then you get the really super dogs that don't have titles so people don't think much of them when in fact they are the better dog.


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## Derek Milliken (Apr 19, 2009)

Nice work there Jehane,
It would be too easy to nitpick about issues in the dog, and question tiny points in the training, but I just want to say well done (even with a show dog, lol).
Any time you want to invite me to South Africa, I'll bring my muzzle. I'll even leave it behind if you pay the airfare.
The only question I have is that you mention the dog has KK for life but no SchH titles? Must be different than here in Canada? Here you can't even enter for a KK without a SchH title, show rating and AD. Is it different there?
Derek


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## Jehane Michael Le Grange (Feb 24, 2009)

Derek Milliken said:


> Nice work there Jehane,
> It would be too easy to nitpick about issues in the dog, and question tiny points in the training, but I just want to say well done (even with a show dog, lol).
> Any time you want to invite me to South Africa, I'll bring my muzzle. I'll even leave it behind if you pay the airfare.
> The only question I have is that you mention the dog has KK for life but no SchH titles? Must be different than here in Canada? Here you can't even enter for a KK without a SchH title, show rating and AD. Is it different there?
> Derek


In SA you don't need a SchH to get breed survey, you just need A graded hips, DNA profiled, breed show grading of at least a G (this dog has a V at the National Breed Show though), males require a BH and all dogs require an AD. Even our VA(SA) dogs do not require a SchH(Although alot of them do have at least a SchH1), they must have breed surveys though and obviously bite at the National Show itself every year they are entered. At the National Show the males bite on whoever they are drawn to bite on, while the females get to choose which helper they want to bite on.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Jehane Michael Le Grange said:


> I know Thomas  Agree one hundred percent. Just used the title to intrigue people  The dog in my pic had enough live bites to prove that there are some show dogs that work. 80% of the dogs I train are show dogs and I don't train dogs that are weak so I guess that means there are some really good working ones still around.


Jehane

The hardest biting GSD I've ever seen was a showline SchH II
that someone paid $20K for as a PPD. The lady wound up giving him to a decoy I worked with cause she couldn't handle him.
He asked me to give him a bite. Trial sleeve HARD FULL grip and unfortunately I'd left my watch on and couldn't get my arm out of the sleeve. I've got no idea how this dog got a SchH II cause he had no idea what out or Aus meant.
Finally had to use a combination of choke off and breaking stick to get him to let go. Used an e-collar from then on (he seemed to know what an e-collar was )


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## Indira Raichoudhury (Aug 21, 2010)

Love this dog and the training. GREAT demeanor, great control, great response. I have three working line inc out of several WUSV ch (Leefdaalhof, Quasy, Grimm) and the absolute best and most courageous dog that I have ever known was a show line.


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

Very nice video... 

It's the first show line GSD that I actually spent some time looking and ended scratching my head saying "damn he is a nice dog..." lol. 
I also watched some of the other videos of your channel and was surprised with the 8 months old female. 

Although I stay away from show lines, both for temperament, health and looks reasons, for I prefer the rustic, more primitive looks of working lines, I will admitt, the dogs on your channel were the best show line GSD's I have seen. 

Continued success and please share the progress of your training and dogs. 


Regards


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## Jehane Michael Le Grange (Feb 24, 2009)

The 8 month old bitch is bred by the owner (who is filming) His wife is the handler and it is her youtube channel. 

Their website is www.vonderkrieger-platz.co.za makes for some good reading. 

This video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxddHnbrHFw of the 8 month old bitch is from their male Olf van der Datze who is a VA(SA) and also a very good biter. She was very skittish at first and this was her 5th session among the other dogs. The male on the left is the one from my previous video and the one on the right is also a very good biter, 6 years old and 3 X winner for excellence in protection work at the National Breed Show. We still need to work on this bitches grips and improve here stress tolerance. Let me know what you think.


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

As I said, I never bothered to watch show dogs at work... It's a mental block I have, lol. However, these were very nice. 

What is the working line situation down there in South Africa? Do you have access to serious working line GSD's, mali's? 

Serious dogs have a place there...


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## Brad Trull (Apr 9, 2012)

Thanks for posting


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## Jehane Michael Le Grange (Feb 24, 2009)

Tiago Fontes said:


> As I said, I never bothered to watch show dogs at work... It's a mental block I have, lol. However, these were very nice.
> 
> What is the working line situation down there in South Africa? Do you have access to serious working line GSD's, mali's?
> 
> Serious dogs have a place there...


We definitely need serious dogs here and we have a few. You must just bear in mind though the dog situation generally:

Firstly there is the Kennel Union of South Africa which is all breeds and 80% show orientated. the 20% working is generally CGC, obedience, ITT, TD, carting, etc. they promote IPO and PD work but it is very small (mondio ring is recognized but no one in the country that I know of is doing it). 

Then you have your South African Working Dog Open Stakes (SAWDOS) which is a competition open to private clubs, the police dogs, correctional service dogs, security dogs, metro police dogs and military dogs and involves exercises from detection, agility, searching, directional control, protection work and article searches. Again the scale is minimal, the dogs that take part are usually donations with no pedigrees what so ever and the training is stone age to say the least (all compulsion based predominantly and minimal use of a ball in detection work) the cops here think their dogs are great but they actually pretty bad. What's worse is that the dogs in this competition make up the top 5% of the South African police dogs so I shudder to think what the other dogs are like. The protection work is really a mixed bag, I reckon I could scare most of the dogs away if I had to.

Then you have the German Shepherd Dog Federation of South Africa which is SV affiliated and WUSV affiliated. Obviously IPO and Schutzhund is big in this organisation and then also the breed surveys so they are the most active on bitewrok sports. We have very few trials unfortunately and at the National IPO champs had about 18 dogs at IPO 3 level. All sports line dogs, many imported from Germany and top dogs at that. At our club we have a Pike de Lupo Nero son so the dogs are really hot. I think our training although good (we had a SA handler come 11th at WUSV in 2005) is still not consistently world class.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Indira Raichoudhury said:


> Love this dog and the training. GREAT demeanor, great control, great response. I have three working line inc out of several WUSV ch (Leefdaalhof, Quasy, Grimm) and the absolute best and most courageous dog that I have ever known was a show line.




Indira, pleas post a bit about yourself in the Member Bios Form here
http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f20/
It's a requirement!

Thanks
WDF Moderators


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## Jehane Michael Le Grange (Feb 24, 2009)

Any thoughts on the video I posted about the 8 month old bitch?


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Jehane Michael Le Grange said:


> Any thoughts on the video I posted about the 8 month old bitch?


She seems like a nice enough bitch for her age and for being show line. I'm not sure if you're gaining anything working her with the two other dogs there, especially that close? I'd work her by herself with a lot of close misses to improve the strike/grip.
She really has a prey bark so I'd lighten up on the pressure and whip a little at this age.


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## Jehane Michael Le Grange (Feb 24, 2009)

Thanks Thomas. The problem with her was that she showed nothing at all to begin with and this was her 5th session if I am not mistaken. There is another video where we agitate her and then give her a grip straight out of the trailer.

I don't use alot of whip in my trailer normally, I just like to throw in the odd pressure 'curve ball' to see if the dog's temperament is improving abit. She was abit skittish when we got her down to us as she had been homed on a small holding and had limited exposure to city noises and sights. What we have done since, is still keep her out with the other dogs but just agitate and give her no bite to build the drive. Will come back now and give her a grip again under tension on the bungy, etc and make sure it is calmer. She is still abit nervy but working to settle that.  Like I say, she showed nothing when she first got here (wish I had a video of her) she literally just sat and watched all the commotion going on around her.


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

Jehane : i liked both videos and like what you are doing regarding PPD training. Tx again for posting them

i just wanted to throw out some of my personal opinions for discussion and of course they are based on how i would define PPD work. if my comments are not appropriate for this thread feel free to PM me with your replies

ok, to start with a simple analogy :
to me, a personal protector is simply a "bodyguard", whether it is a dog or human. the person is the resource

a good one considers their assigned resource a potential target and is constantly vigilant and watches the environment around their target to look for threats. recognizing a threat in advance of the attack is the key to successfully guarding their target and preventing the attack. having the means to react and deter an actual attack once it happens comes from LOTS of mental and physical training and being prepared with the right defensive equipment.......a PPD is rather limited mentally ... only has it's teeth, body and physical presence. 

- can a PPD conduct a proper threat analysis to determine what is a threat ? sometime yes, in an extreme and obvious attack, but in most cases i say NO. would a PPD who would bite a young kid running up to the owner be doing it's job as a PPD ? of course not. Should any dog who snaps at a person walking too close to its owner be considered "defending" the owner ? of course not . should a PPD bite whenever another person lays a hand on its owners shoulder ? HELL no
- iow, to determine what is a threat and what is not is what would always be the biggest training problem for a PPD to learn

- i also propose that in most all cases a PPD should NEVER engage on its own without a command from the owner, and this should be thoroughly tested and constantly proofed under a wide variety of environmental conditions in the REAL WORLD, before a dog could be certified as a PPD
- this means simulating a wide variety of public interactions with dog/owner

- which brings up the object guard ... i don't feel it is a good PPD drill to train, since it teaches the dog to bite when it wants to (when someone approaches too close to the object) ... it is teaching basic resource guarding. Which is a behavior that causes MANY more problems than it ever solves. the guard of object may look cool in a competition, but it doesn't always cross over into training for "personal" protection, and in some cases could create a dangerous dog in public. in fact the "object" itself has no meaning to a dog and that is why judges can present any number of different "objects" the dog must guard. it may appear that the dog is defending something, but the reality is that is has simply been conditioned to bite at whoever comes within a specified radius w/out discretion
- maybe the thinking is that a dog who will "defend" a bucket will also defend its owner ??
- but imo the example of putting a briefcase or bag down for the dog to "guard" does not seem like a realistic scenario to train a PPD for, and it does not teach resource defense in the way i feel a PPD should be trained for

next, and imo only, there are two types of PPD's :
1. a family PPD ... canine who lives and interacts with a family in a family environment but is trained to defend when a threat is encountered...... or maybe "professional" pet would be a simpler definition
2. a "professional" trained PPD ... one who is not part of the family or "resource" it is protecting, and is trained to work with a handler both on/off lead while in public places while protecting the person or persons
.... two different types of dogs requiring two different training styles
#1 dog must be biddable around family members, family friends AND non threatening strangers ... in public places
#2 dog does not have to be biddable, only controllable ... in public places ... 
.... more resembling a PSD, as in DV/VIP perimeter protection
* but both dogs must be capable of live bites on command whenever and wherever under any environmental or social condition

#1 dog may be in more demand but is MUCH more difficult to train safely, and also requires a much more confident clear headed dog imo, than a #2 dog. i would think it requires much more testing and proofing and i can't see how that can be done in controlled training field environments

you may not agree with my opinions or definitions, and that's ok, but my main question regarding a family PPD is whether you feel the dog should be trained to engage/bite on its own, based on its own "threat analysis", or only on command ?

not trying to derail your thread ... but i would value your opinions on mine regarding PPD training


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## Dan Reiter (May 12, 2006)

Interesting. I also had great red & black when I watched video looked alot like mine. Same ancestors in pedigree. 
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=566115

Mine had full grips first bite from day one would not take correction from anyone but me. Was very confident !!! dog. never going to leave a fight. No roached back or slanky rear feet like most show lines today.


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