# Working a young Rotti



## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

Hi all, we have a young Rotti coming out to training. He is a handful! 14 mos and loaded with drive. We tie him out as knowone can hold him back and started with a tug, then a int. sleeve (ouch) and now a full sleeve. The dog seems to want to back up and charge the decoy. I felt this was not out of avoidence, but trying to break the leash (which he did twice) or luring the decoy into him. The dog appears pretty solid while on the sleeve and is not fearful at all.
What we did last time was not to play his game. If he backs up, the decoy backs up too and goes limp. Seemed to work OK as the dog reduce the backing up thing. Is this backing up and charging a Rotti thing? Any other ideas on this?


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

I think it's a confidence issue. my rottie did similar things around that age, I don't remember when he stopped but he doesn't do that anymore and he's a little over 24mo now. Remember rotts are slow to mature so keep the work mostly in prey until he's older - like 18-20mo.


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

Thanks Chris. We will continue with prey.


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## Andy Larrimore (Jan 8, 2008)

I have worked numerous rotties, bred rotties and trained the first rottie for police work in the state of MD. I have found it to be a rottie thing and not a confidence issue.


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Andy Larrimore said:


> I have worked numerous rotties, bred rotties and trained the first rottie for police work in the state of MD. I have found it to be a rottie thing and not a confidence issue.


I certainly trust you more on that than I would trust me. The helpers I worked with always said it was confidence issue and perhaps it was with my dog, it's gone now and I've been very happy with him since.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Andy Larrimore said:


> I have worked numerous rotties, bred rotties and trained the first rottie for police work in the state of MD. I have found it to be a rottie thing and not a confidence issue.


I tend to agree but occasional exceptions.
I do agree with Chris on working in pray as long as possible trying to squeak out and promote as much as the dog has to offer.
A good Rottie works best when you bring it to them however that shouldn't happen till the dog is able to handle it.
No hurrying with a Rottweiler


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

That ain't got shit to do with confidence. He is trying to suck the guy in.

C'MON. cannot believe we didn't teach you better than that. 

You guys are in big trouble if he has figured this out this quickly.

Maybe you let him go forward a bit for a few sessions and balance out the thing. SLOWLY.


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> That ain't got shit to do with confidence. He is trying to suck the guy in.
> 
> C'MON. cannot believe we didn't teach you better than that.
> 
> ...


so does that mean my Rottie has confidence issues now? :-k


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

I seen a GSD that was a tied out rescued, serious dog that worked like this Rotti, this is why I questioned either trying to suck me in or avoidence issue. He seemed very confident for his age so I was leaning toward a Rotti thing. We do plan to work in prey for awhile and I told this guy he's going to have to find some young crazy F'er to really work him, as I'm old and break easy! [-o< The "I'm not playing with you until your at the end of the leash" thing seemed to work out, although it was only one session. When we were working the tug he was text book, I'd pull and he would pull harder, I let up and he did a radical head shake. I could do this at will. 
For what it's worth this dog just won his class and named Seiger at the SW Regional event in CA a few weeks ago. I thing his drives are what did it for him. The Judge was impress by his desire for the ball over the other Rotti's.


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

love when i see a rott that has over the top ball drive just a pity i have seen so few off them and they keep getting scarce. he sounds like a good dog


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

It's all about *baiting* you in. I had a 9 month old Bouvier female, now sold, and she did the same thing. Dogs know the limits of the line, if...you are foolish enough to come in deeper, Bamn! The rest is history.


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Howard Gaines III said:


> It's all about *baiting* you in. I had a 9 month old Bouvier female, now sold, and she did the same thing. Dogs know the limits of the line, if...you are foolish enough to come in deeper, Bamn! The rest is history.



do you guys think it's bad that we worked that out of my dog?


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## Julie Ann Alvarez (Aug 4, 2007)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> That ain't got shit to do with confidence. He is trying to suck the guy in.


I agree with Jeff. I have seen plenty of young green dogs do this. Trickers. None had confidence problems. 

I would say some one needs to start working this dog on the leash/harness and start the gaurd training to stop it. You could even add a pinch and another leash if your worried about control. 

How many session has he had for grip work? Are his grips good? How is his barking? 

We don't have a back tie indoors at the place we lease. If I can hold my AB 6 months after major spine surgery doing drive work one of you healthy guys should be able to hold the Rott.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Chris we have a 4-5 year old German Shepherd in our group, see the website "Yago" and he does it too. Confidence lacking? Don't think so. That dog has game and will hurt you if you aren't thinking. It it's gone, not a big thing, but I kind of like it in a dog. For Schutzhund, the sport wants the dog sitting pretty and not touching the helper. For me, I see it as baiting and something rookie decoys that don't know, just gives them something "new" to train on.


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## Alex Corral (Jul 10, 2007)

I agree w/the rest that this is a Rottie thing, not a confidence issue. It's just like when on the escape, typical Rott hits you and drops all it's weight like a sack of cement. Sounds like a great dog.


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

Julie Ann Alvarez said:


> I agree with Jeff. I have seen plenty of young green dogs do this. Trickers. None had confidence problems.
> 
> I would say some one needs to start working this dog on the leash/harness and start the gaurd training to stop it. You could even add a pinch and another leash if your worried about control.
> 
> ...


We have done about 6 sessions so far. The grips are pretty strong, although he will grip the sleeve anywhere he can at this point, my mistakes. After he broke 2 lines I'm a little tenative. No barking as of yet, we will be working on that though. On my dog they used another dog and played keep away with the tug between the two dogs until one barked. That worked well for my dog. This dog is about 130#, one musle with four legs!


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

If the dog is lacking in confidence then more then likely it wont engage the helper till he (helper) starts backing away or presses the dog to the point it has no choice but to bite. 
The dog that is baiting the helper will engage as soon as the helper gets in range. JMHO!


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

Bob Scott said:


> If the dog is lacking in confidence then more then likely it wont engage the helper till he (helper) starts backing away or presses the dog to the point it has no choice but to bite.
> The dog that is baiting the helper will engage as soon as the helper gets in range. JMHO!


That's exactly what he's doing. Waiting until I get in range, Smart SOB!


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

The smart ones are not going to sit at the end of the line and bang all day Chris. They will back up a bit and try and suck the decoy into getting close enough to bite.

One of the problems with a backtie, is that some dogs it reduces their "critical distance" or whatever fancy term is popular to the point where the dog will not even try to bite if the guy is more than X amount of distance away. It will reduce this distance to the point of stupidity.

I did not see this for a long time, and then saw it again recently. Lame training.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Edward Egan said:


> That's exactly what he's doing. Waiting until I get in range, Smart SOB!


Why waste time banging your neck on a long line? Allow the young and dumb to get to within striking range and then bang away!


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> The smart ones are not going to sit at the end of the line and bang all day Chris. They will back up a bit and try and suck the decoy into getting close enough to bite.
> 
> One of the problems with a backtie, is that some dogs it reduces their "critical distance" or whatever fancy term is popular to the point where the dog will not even try to bite if the guy is more than X amount of distance away. It will reduce this distance to the point of stupidity.
> 
> I did not see this for a long time, and then saw it again recently. Lame training.


he's chewed through the back tie on two occasions to get to the helper. Does that count as smart? 

He was taught to be forward in his movements.


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

Howard Gaines III said:


> Why waste time banging your neck on a long line? Allow the young and dumb to get to within striking range and then bang away!


I'm sorry but I don't get what your trying to say. Banging my neck? Bang away?


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Yes Chris, this is the other reason to not backtie.


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Yes Chris, this is the other reason to not backtie.


He hasn't been back tied in over a year but we started using that ray Allen chain since my dog chewed up the the other leads.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Chris I can send you some sea anchor chain...nice size links!!!


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## Andy Larrimore (Jan 8, 2008)

If the dog is chewing up the leads then it is the handler / decoy's fault. Correct your action and the dog's action will change.


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Andy Larrimore said:


> If the dog is chewing up the leads then it is the handler / decoy's fault. Correct your action and the dog's action will change.


I totally agree, the two times that happened his was back tied and was watching the big dogs work. I'm to blame on that one because I was watching the decoy's and the big dogs work too.


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

Howard, check post #20 what???


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Edward Egan said:


> Howard, check post #20 what???


Sounds like he may been drinking or smoking :-?


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

Description from owner on his achievements so far.

This was a large international show with over 150 Rotts coming from as far away as Germany, Sweden and Italy, Vito won first place with over 20 dogs in his class alone. He also won Youth Sieger over all champion class dogs under 24 months.
To date, Vito has won first Place in 2 international shows and first place in an AKC show under the famous Robert Landdiver. Three world class judges can't be wrong.
Vito is currently working on getting his titled BH and later his S1.

http://www.workingdogforum.com/gallery/showimage.php?i=1384&catid=newimages


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## Paul Smikovecus (Mar 3, 2009)

rotties . . . hmmmmm


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Edward Egan said:


> Howard, check post #20 what???


Comment was for the dog and not anything else!!!!!!!!! =; 
Young and dumb decoys will step or misread the dog's actions, get sucked into a false sense of safety...older decoys too at times!
Neck banging and chewing can be corrected with decoy and handler GAME PLANS developed ahead of time, got to watch what is going on.
Ya'll are tough around HERE!!!!


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

yeah well, it's a "work ing dog" forum for a reason, right?


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## Paul Smikovecus (Mar 3, 2009)

Let me ask this, what is the cause of the chewing? 

What is the cause of the backing up or "baiting" (as some you call it)?

Is Bungee being used?

if nothing else, we have to remember that they are ALL dogs in the end.


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

Howard Gaines III said:


> Comment was for the dog and not anything else!!!!!!!!! =;
> Young and dumb decoys will step or misread the dog's actions, get sucked into a false sense of safety...older decoys too at times!
> Neck banging and chewing can be corrected with decoy and handler GAME PLANS developed ahead of time, got to watch what is going on.
> Ya'll are tough around HERE!!!!


Maybe you read into my post, I simply didn't understand what you meant. Unless you mean "tough around here" as in dumb, in which case, OK I'm guilty!

I haven't worked the dog for awhile. The last time he was doing the backup lungeing think I simply did not engage him. I waited until he was at the end of the leash and gave a prey bite.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Paul Smikovecus said:


> Let me ask this, what is the cause of the chewing?
> 
> What is the cause of the backing up or "baiting" (as some you call it)?
> 
> ...


 
Paul, I really feel chewing is a release of bite issues, too much pressure. I'll give you this example: Someone who is sparring in the martial arts may not use the best technique, but the moves are there. A dog that bites and chews is in a drive or fight or flight mode. STRESS is the key point. There is stress in sparring, stress when in police work as you roll up to a car accident, stress when you go into the CO's office, any form of stess...... The comfort comes in if the dog is able to sit back and enjoy the "pain" others are going through and w/o issues to it.

I think backing up is the dog's way of knowing its limits and suckering you into its world. Why waste time and energy? Flounder wait on the bottom of the ocean floor for smaller bait fish to come into their strike zone, they don't swim out in wolf-pack schools!

We never use the bungee...I need to know what the limits are, the dog's and mine! Dogs in the end and maybe family too!!!:lol:


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## Al Lewis (Feb 3, 2009)

Howard Gaines III said:


> We never use the bungee...I need to know what the limits are, the dog's and mine! :


Howard, although I do agree with you, I have seen and used a bungee with younger dogs that were having issues during the bite. For example, my dog when he was younger he was hitting the decoy with his feet first, then biting. I used the bungee so that when he hit with his feet his grip was not optimal and it would pull free. He learned to explode teeth first and get in deep or he'd lose the bite. The distance with a bungee can be determined by both the Helper and the Handler - plus it can build strength in the dog by working against the tension. Anyway, just something to consider.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Al Lewis said:


> Howard, although I do agree with you, I have seen and used a bungee with younger dogs that were having issues during the bite. For example, my dog when he was younger he was hitting the decoy with his feet first, then biting. I used the bungee so that when he hit with his feet his grip was not optimal and it would pull free. He learned to explode teeth first and get in deep or he'd lose the bite. The distance with a bungee can be determined by both the Helper and the Handler - plus it can build strength in the dog by working against the tension. Anyway, just something to consider.


Excellent tool for this problem and excellent explanation on how to use it. We will also make a mark in the dirt as to ware the dogs limits is so the helper can gauge distance and make good work.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Mike and his line in the sand! [-X OK so I do the same thing...I like it better than fat chick thong material (bungees) just too much flex to make me happy. The issue of hitting feet first got me thinking, again. If imprinted correctly as a pup, why would they feel the need to hit feet first. Some dogs use the legs and to me that's ok if you're not doing Schutzhund.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: We never use the bungee...I need to know what the limits are, the dog's and mine!

Fishing for how to train again Howard ?? LOL 

You and your amazing certified police handler decoy cannot figure out how to use one of the best tools for building the entry ???

Most of your posts are just you fishing for how to train a dog. Sad really, you have had your ass handed to you hundreds of times here. 

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHA


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Yep, need to call* Orkin Pest Control! *Crotch CRICKETS churping here again!!!!!! [-X :-({|= So sad don't have a clue as to why I post...Big fish, foul water, go figure!!!!!


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Maybe if you cleaned your house once in a while, you wouldn't have these problems.

You can get an ointment for them.

Don't worry Howard, it is getting boring slapping you around, as you never have a comeback worth spit.

Still waiting on all those videos of your work. LOL


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

The words of a fool offend only another fool! =; 
Higher ground bound!!!


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Howard Gaines III said:


> The words of a fool offend only another fool! =;
> Higher ground bound!!!


DAMN I like that quote! 
Makes sooooo much more sense then the cat fights we get sometimes!


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

See Bob, I'm trainable!!!!!!!!!:razz:


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## todd pavlus (Apr 30, 2008)

Wow..... now the 2 of you got 2 threads hijacked with name calling... I think you both should post video and then we can start a thread with a poll of who is better. And Jeff.. I won't count your decoy cert video since there was nothing but you trying to run around and hop over things.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

You are too kind! ;-) 

Better yet, get on my website and see the pics!!!! They change and new ones are often put up, but at least you SEE me working dogs and contact information is easy to get. No shame in my game. And yes, I did pass in 2000 my Schutzhund DVG tests (Trial Helper and Qualified Training Director) the first time given and with some nice scores!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :razz: And Todd...in each venue there were only about 125 people nationally listed. The only reason I'm not there now, don't belong to a DVG club!!!...Not bad for a shop teacher who plays with power tools.

Thanks to "modern" technology and this forum, those who post and place pics do, those who don't....go figure. #-o


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