# Helmut Rasiers breakaway GSD club gets FCI



## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Excellent news out of Germany. Helmut Raisers RSV 2000 has now gained status with the VDH in Germany which means it has FCI status. This is will give the show freaks in charge of the SV some worries and hopefully all the working people in Germany jump off the SV to this group.
This is massive news with big ramifications for the SV.
http://www.rsv2000.de/de/167/25.03.2009_-_RSV2000_e.V._ist_Mitglied_des_VDH.html


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

This is very interesting, and a good thing, I think.


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## James Degale (Jan 9, 2009)

Excellent news. Can someone explain to me what this means? Sorry. 

They can compete at FCIs IPO now? What about WUSV, BSP? Can clubs outside Germany affiliate themselves with them now. Not interested in show scene at all but will they hold koerungs conformation tests as well, if so what is the standard.


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

James Degale said:


> Excellent news. Can someone explain to me what this means? Sorry.
> 
> They can compete at FCIs IPO now? What about WUSV, BSP? Can clubs outside Germany affiliate themselves with them now. Not interested in show scene at all but will they hold koerungs conformation tests as well, if so what is the standard.


Well they can compete at the FCIs anyway outside the SV. The SV trials are SchH trials, the FCI is IPO and the VDH is VPG. All the same rules just different names.
What this means is that a club for GSD's can be set up from the ground up with the sole intent for breeding stronger GSD's for working. They could and most likely will introduce their own Korung, and hopefully it is more like the Mali on and not the current GSD one.
As far as their conformation goes that would no doubt be the same as the FCI standard, which is the SV standard.
WUSV and BSP are SV events so they would not be in them but they can compete at the FCIs and the Meisterschaft in Germany which is all breeds.


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## Erik Berg (Apr 11, 2006)

Remember I have read something about this club in the past, but it was mostly in german so didn´t get all. But are this club going to change to a different test than SCH, or other tests, any information about that? Or how are they going to improve the GSD that is different from SV? I know Raiser have been looking at the form of charactertests done in scandinavia, and I remember he was intressted in that, but don´t know if they are going to implement something similar in this new club. It seems some influental working GSD people in germany are aware of the weakness of current SCH as a tool for breeding dogs for the army/police.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Yeah there are a lot of happy GSD breeders and owners in Germany today.

The FCI standard for the German Shepherd is binding as it is for SV breeders. RSV 2000 will hold Körungen but as with any standard, this can be strictly adhered to or not as we have seen in the past. Judging will be done by RSV judges and number one priority will be the working GSD so it will be interesting to see the developments. I seemed to have read once a few months ago that there won't be any stacking and that the dog will be presented in it's natural stance.

In my mind they have it in their hand - to just let those pass that are worthy of the title "Gebrauchshund".

What I did see is that IPO1 or VPG1, plus hips A-C is the prequisite as formerly but the dog has to pass the schutzdienst test at the Körung and I guess here pressure will be applied.

Even HR can't wave a magic wand and change the GSD overnight but it's a good beginning. The breeders are still the same. The serious breeders that know that a good working dog has a certain amount of aggression if challlenged and that sloping backed, lethargic apologies for dogs have no place in their breeding programme have always existed but now they have their own club, namely RSV 2000:grin:

This is just my view of things - I hope I'm not wrong.


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## James Degale (Jan 9, 2009)

The GSD standard is not the problem but the very loose intepretation of the standard by judges who clearly have their own agenda, kennels to promote, money, politics and this is the show side. 

I am not familiar with Mali korung, Chris could you enlighten?

My problem with SCH is the ability of dogs to get through without showing proper hardness and defense and as a PPD enthusiat I have to say that a dog should not get SCH3 without being able to actually bite for "real". After all SCH means protection dog in German. Whatever happened to the suprise attack, jumping out of the blind in SCH1? 

I am not sure how much leeway RSV has to change the SCH routine. They probably must tow the FCI line, from what I read the sport is out of the SV (and by implication) RSV's hands now. Sad. But there should be nothing stopping the RSV from developing its own tests in theory but the FCI might not take too kindly to this, we shall see. I've heard of character tests in Scandanavian countries and have seen them online. Bunch of people in the woods dressing up like ghosts, very funny. But on a serious note I'd like to see proper tests done for handler protection and defense which includes decoy in suits. For example bring back the suprise attack. Another suggestion is scenario defense, like PSA it should be something the team cannot prepare for and is thought up by the judge on the day. Also I would like to see the decoy pressure the dog in a less predictable way than SCH routine. 

At the same time I want to see more detailed testing of the dogs in term of environmental stability. Too many SCH dogs (and thisincludes other European sports like KNPV, Belgian, French ring) are bred for extreme drives and nerve strength and environmental stability is secondary, "as long as it flies on the field" attitude. This is deterimental for the breed in the long term IMO. Sometimes the BH traffic section is done very poorly and is just a cursory exercise. Approach by neutral/friendly stranger, dog aggression, etc. I don't want to have a dog who is a sociopath when I can have a perfectly good animal who will work just as well AND is trustworthy. The breeders just have to get it right. 

Sorry for sounding like I am preaching but this is the best piece of news I have heard for a while dogwise.


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

James Degale said:


> I am not familiar with Mali korung, Chris could you enlighten?
> 
> My problem with SCH is the ability of dogs to get through without showing proper hardness and defense and as a PPD enthusiat I have to say that a dog should not get SCH3 without being able to actually bite for "real". After all SCH means protection dog in German. Whatever happened to the suprise attack, jumping out of the blind in SCH1?


The DMC (German Mali Club) introduced their own Korung with a view to really test the dogs as hard as they could. They took alot of their ideas from the NVBK with regards to enviromental stresses and having a none pattern, not easy to train for senarios. It is so much more difficult than the GSD, Dobie or Rotti Korung it isnt even worth talking about. 
They have a Korung 1,2 and 3 which I believe has a higher grade of difficulity. They also have a scoring system looking more like a old DDR or Czech GSD breed survey using numbers. Hopefully someone more enlightened can explain the scoring and points systems.
But heres a video of one female doing it from start to finish. As you could imagine the vast majority of GSD owners wouldnt even bother entering their dogs in something like this.
But I guess thats why the Mali keeps going from strength to strength and the GSD, Dobie and Rotti is going backwards.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sy1lr0LKrS8


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## James Degale (Jan 9, 2009)

Geez Chris your anti-GSD attitude can be tiresome....but I'll let it slide cos' I'm in a good mood.

With regards the video, my GSD would walk that AND hit harder than that yellow stick insect. A lot of GSDs I know would find that easy too but I know some sports GSD who don't have the natural hardness but would probably pass, if their owners did a little reality trainer with them. Let's not talk about the showline dogs...uurgh. 

Thanks for the info.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Quote
The GSD standard is not the problem but the very loose intepretation of the standard by judges who clearly have their own agenda, kennels to promote, money, politics and this is the show side
Unquote

This is exactly what I wrote. But now there will be RSV 2000 judges judging the dogs at Körung and not those from SV!!!!


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

Christopher Jones said:


> The DMC (German Mali Club) introduced their own Korung with a view to really test the dogs as hard as they could. They took alot of their ideas from the NVBK with regards to enviromental stresses and having a none pattern, not easy to train for senarios. It is so much more difficult than the GSD, Dobie or Rotti Korung it isnt even worth talking about.
> They have a Korung 1,2 and 3 which I believe has a higher grade of difficulity. They also have a scoring system looking more like a old DDR or Czech GSD breed survey using numbers. Hopefully someone more enlightened can explain the scoring and points systems.
> But heres a video of one female doing it from start to finish. As you could imagine the vast majority of GSD owners wouldnt even bother entering their dogs in something like this.
> But I guess thats why the Mali keeps going from strength to strength and the GSD, Dobie and Rotti is going backwards.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sy1lr0LKrS8


 
Wow so did this dog pass? The tests were cool but the dog showed typical Mali like behaviour at things she hadn't seen like the blue barrel and not engagaing the decoy under the EZ-up. Thankfully she got threw it all eventually and didn't quit (kudos to her) but do they dock points for that or have time limits on the excersize and how long it takes the dog to engage? I really have to love their speed but it matters little when the dog takes that many laps around the decoy before it engages or wont go in to find it's reward.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: With regards the video, my GSD would walk that AND hit harder than that yellow stick insect

Video would be nice.

If this dog was trained in Sch, and never saw this stuff before............


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## Al Curbow (Mar 27, 2006)

Sch style heeling, down in motion, a recall, traffic portion, scared of plastic drum


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Michelle Kehoe said:


> Wow so did this dog pass? The tests were cool but the dog showed typical Mali like behaviour at things she hadn't seen like the blue barrel and not engagaing the decoy under the EZ-up. Thankfully she got threw it all eventually and didn't quit (kudos to her) but do they dock points for that or have time limits on the excersize and how long it takes the dog to engage? I really have to love their speed but it matters little when the dog takes that many laps around the decoy before it engages or wont go in to find it's reward.


Im not to sure if the dog passed. It most likley did, but with lower ratings. Being as this was done in Germany, I would hazard to guess that she had only done IPO in her life, and was taken to the Kurong to be tested and evaluated. 
I like the fact that, as the FCI Mali could have some environmental issues, the DMC introduces a Kurong which tests against the things that the breed needs to improve in. Thats what breed clubs are ment to do, improve the breed. By comparison we have other breed clubs who drop standards to make it easier to pass.


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

James Degale said:


> Geez Chris your anti-GSD attitude can be tiresome....but I'll let it slide cos' I'm in a good mood.
> 
> With regards the video, my GSD would walk that AND hit harder than that yellow stick insect. A lot of GSDs I know would find that easy too but I know some sports GSD who don't have the natural hardness but would probably pass, if their owners did a little reality trainer with them. Let's not talk about the showline dogs...uurgh.
> 
> Thanks for the info.


Nah, im not anti-GSD, just realistic. I am however glad that your in a good mood. 
I would love to see the other breed clubs introduce this test as their Korung, but like I said, if the SV did this how many of the thousands of GSD's that get the current breed survey, would pass or even be entered into this. 
And I would love to see some videos of you GSD's hitting faster and harder than the malis can. Maybe you have a secret genepool that will now bring the GSD up to the level of the Malinois? I can pass on Raisers email addy for you if you want


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Christopher Jones said:


> Nah, im not anti-GSD, just realistic. I am however glad that your in a good mood.
> I would love to see the other breed clubs introduce this test as their Korung, but like I said, if the SV did this how many of the thousands of GSD's that get the current breed survey, would pass or even be entered into this.
> And I would love to see some videos of you GSD's hitting faster and harder than the malis can. Maybe you have a secret genepool that will now bring the GSD up to the level of the Malinois? I can pass on Raisers email addy for you if you want


I'll be very interested in Rasiers Koolaid once served I to see no point or benefit to the German Shepherd being linked to the caricature dog that morphed from ours.
Christopher I'm not sure what hole you live in but if you are serious about finding a GOOD working German Shepherd it's only a phone call away. Your yackety yack about the yellow dog's dose become aggravating and it takes away credibility from most anything that you have to say about anything else. 
Simply put you sound like a idiot.:lol:


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## James Degale (Jan 9, 2009)

LOL. Chris, looks like that chip on your shoulder is turning into a boulder. 

Will be happy to talk dog once you decide to join the ranks of adulthood.


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## Terry Fisk (Jul 26, 2007)

Christopher Jones said:


> The DMC (German Mali Club)
> But heres a video of one female doing it from start to finish. As you could imagine the vast majority of GSD owners wouldnt even bother entering their dogs in something like this.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sy1lr0LKrS8


I never got past the heeling portion of the video. Quite frankly I would be worn out having to keep pushing the dog out of my way as I walked through the routine. ;-)


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## Sam Bishop (May 8, 2008)

I agree, that style of heeling makes me grit my teeth.


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## Laura Bollschweiler (Apr 25, 2008)

hahahaa....re the heeling, I was thinking, geez, I can do that!!

And have. 

Laura
P.S. It IS tiring! :wink:


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> If this dog was trained in Sch, and never saw this stuff before............


What do you think of her reaction to the blue barrel, Jeff?


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Gillian Schuler said:


> Yeah there are a lot of happy GSD breeders and owners in Germany today.
> 
> The FCI standard for the German Shepherd is binding as it is for SV breeders. RSV 2000 will hold Körungen but as with any standard, this can be strictly adhered to or not as we have seen in the past. Judging will be done by RSV judges and number one priority will be the working GSD so it will be interesting to see the developments. I seemed to have read once a few months ago that there won't be any stacking and that the dog will be presented in it's natural stance.
> 
> ...


And I hope you aren't wrong too!:grin:


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

;113445 said:


> I'll be very interested in Rasiers Koolaid once served I to see no point or benefit to the German Shepherd being linked to the caricature dog that morphed from ours.
> Christopher I'm not sure what hole you live in but if you are serious about finding a GOOD working German Shepherd it's only a phone call away. Your yackety yack about the yellow dog's dose become aggravating and it takes away credibility from most anything that you have to say about anything else.
> Simply put you sound like a idiot.:lol:


Haha, thats quite funny.
Lets see what I know about GSD's. Well I own a Gero z BZ daughter linebred on Omar z BZ, I own a Tom z PS daughter going back on Art z Lipin and Grim z PS. I own a Olymp Policia son going back on Ciro z PS and Titus z PS, I owned a Bonny z BZ daughter, I own a Chuligan z PS daughter going back to Lord Clo. 
I have imported a number of dogs into Australia for people including Warkos Anrebri (Czech Nat Competitor), Marko z BZ (IPO3, SchH3, ZVV3, 2 times Czech Nat comptitor all by 4 years of age), Dark Gaja Nova (Tom PS son, Titus PS Grandson). I have had litter from all these dogs and also Dares z Geradonu.
These are dogs that people like Bernhard Flinks and Alex Bayer call "Awesome".
I have also worked GSD's from Mink, Fero, Yoshey, Stormfronts Brawnson, Gary Korbelbach, yadda yadda yadda. I have bred and trained GSD's that are currently in the Australia Airforce, Federal Police and the Prisons. 
I not quite sure what you have running around that is better than what I have had, bred, worked or seen.
But as you wanted to make this personal, I looked at your clip of Jett on youtube and if you think he is anywhere near the quality of dog as a Warkos Anrebri or Marko z BZ then you kidding yourself. 
You see Im not interested in "Good" dogs, I've had lots of good dogs, including many GSD. I want a little more than good.
It's pretty funny when you critsize the SV, GSD health or declining GSD working abilities the defence force comes out in full effect. Hey, I want to see better GSD's. I want to see better health is the GSD' I dont think OFA stats of 20% xrays showing displacia in elbows and hips isnt good enough. I dont think that the SV is headed the right way, and I say it.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Christopher Jones said:


> Haha, thats quite funny.
> Lets see what I know about GSD's. Well I own a Gero z BZ daughter linebred on Omar z BZ, I own a Tom z PS daughter going back on Art z Lipin and Grim z PS. I own a Olymp Policia son going back on Ciro z PS and Titus z PS, I owned a Bonny z BZ daughter, I own a Chuligan z PS daughter going back to Lord Clo.
> I have imported a number of dogs into Australia for people including Warkos Anrebri (Czech Nat Competitor), Marko z BZ (IPO3, SchH3, ZVV3, 2 times Czech Nat comptitor all by 4 years of age), Dark Gaja Nova (Tom PS son, Titus PS Grandson). I have had litter from all these dogs and also Dares z Geradonu.
> These are dogs that people like Bernhard Flinks and Alex Bayer call "Awesome".
> ...


You bring up all sorts of east dogs that really don't have anything in common with much of the crap of the west. 
Then you mention a hand full of the old west greats toss in Flinks WTF are you talking about. 
Suddenly my 30 second video clip of my 2 year old at that time 1/2 green dog is being compared to some east dogs that I could really give 2 shits about. How you came up with such a assesment of my dog doing one 30 second cut of 1 exersise.
So you live on the bottom and toilet water goes clock wise guess I'll stand down. 
Just thought I'd throw in some stupid off the wall shit to.\\/


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

James Degale said:


> LOL. Chris, looks like that chip on your shoulder is turning into a boulder.
> 
> Will be happy to talk dog once you decide to join the ranks of adulthood.


Ok James, lets talk dogs. What dogs do you currently have? You mentioned your dog would make that Mali look average so I really am interested in him or her. What bloodlines? Any video clips?
Now lets see if you give any answers or info or wether you go "LOL, whatever, when you grow up then I might answer your question" I have heard you mention a number of times about how good your PP trained dog is yet havent seen anything of him?


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Mike Scheiber said:


> You bring up all sorts of east dogs that really don't have anything in common with much of the crap of the west.
> Then you mention a hand full of the old west greats toss in Flinks WTF are you talking about.
> Suddenly my 30 second video clip of my 2 year old at that time 1/2 green dog is being compared to some east dogs that I could really give 2 shits about. How you came up with such a assesment of my dog doing one 30 second cut of 1 exersise.
> So you live on the bottom and toilet water goes clock wise guess I'll stand down.
> Just thought I'd throw in some stupid off the wall shit to.\\/


Lets be honest, you have had a few Buds now havent you?

"You bring up all sorts of east dogs that really don't have anything in common with much of the* crap of the west.*"
What?

"Then you mention a hand full of the old west greats toss in Flinks WTF are you talking about."
Re read it. I said Flinks and Bayer have worked Warkos, Marko, Dares and Dark and they think they are pretty awesome dogs. Just so you have an independent non biased opinion of these dogs. I mentioned the west bloodlines as well as I have seen plenty of them. Maybe if you look at your boys pedigree you might recognize some of those dogs names, you never know now.

"Suddenly my 30 second video clip of my 2 year old at that time 1/2 green dog is being compared to some east dogs that I could really give 2 shits about. How you came up with such a assesment of my dog doing one 30 second cut of 1 exersise."
Jett Vom Triton as real as it gets 
youtube.com/watch?v=KXt8M3sissU
I'm not easily impressed

I was just a bit confused as I wasnt really impressed after watching the clip and you told me to give you a ring if I wanted to see a good GSD. I mean, hes as real as it gets isnt he?
You come across as defending the GSD breed yet slag off against some good working GSD's, some infact you will be lucky to ever own the caliber of. Your quite the enigma.

"So you live on the bottom and toilet water goes clock wise guess I'll stand down. 
Just thought I'd throw in some stupid off the wall shit to"
Yep, your correct on that one. I have to give you one win. 

Look I'm not anti-gsd. I would hardly of imported the numbers of them that I have done if I was. I just happen to think that they have lost ground on the Malinois. They cant compete against them in FR, KNPV, BR and now even IPO. You have the German Police changing from breeding GSD's to Malis, you have the Policia kennels is Slovakia breeding more and more Malis. You then have people like Raiser who dont like this and want to try and correct things. I agree with him. I also have a problem with the influence that the show people have in the SV. If only you knew what the GSD breed clubs under the protection of the SV have done here in Australia to get the sport of SchH banned. But I guess you dont care about these issues. Maybe your just too busy polishing you pickup.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: What do you think of her reaction to the blue barrel, Jeff?

It was not just the barrel, so don't get me wrong there, but many people in a dog sport live in the bubble of the dog sport. There was no age on the dog, so that is another factor. The dog was obviously a bit nervous, as possibly in, why do they put my toy in the trash can. I liked that even though she was not happy about what they did, she went and got the dang thing regardless.

Courage is not the absence of fear, so got to keep that in mind. Mals seem to live and die by their ability to learn a situation and pattern. Go to far out of the pattern, and the trained dog falls apart......in the Malinois.

I would want to know if she had ever seen any of that stuff for sure before I went about giving her bad scores. The sterile field of Sch does not help matters. 

Because of the way she did just about everything, I would say that it was all brand new to her.

I would also want to see her do the bitework again, with a little introduction, and see how she did that time. I did not see her bite get all weird, so that is one reason why I would not take the rest too seriously.

Some lines of Mals are just twitchy ****ers, so they look nervy to the GSD people. But look at her bite, I didn't see change there. All of this need to be taken into account when evaluating a dog.


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: What do you think of her reaction to the blue barrel, Jeff?
> 
> It was not just the barrel, so don't get me wrong there, but many people in a dog sport live in the bubble of the dog sport. There was no age on the dog, so that is another factor. The dog was obviously a bit nervous, as possibly in, why do they put my toy in the trash can. I liked that even though she was not happy about what they did, she went and got the dang thing regardless.
> 
> ...


I think this is the beauty of the Mali Korung. The owner and the audience saw her faults and now hopefully if she is bred she will be taken to a dog who wasnt so nervous with things. This female most likely looked like pure gold on the IPO field yet when taken out of her safe zone her true character becomes present. These sorts of breed tests are invaluable. The problem I see with the Dobie, Rotti, and yes GSD, is that their breed tests are not much different to the basic SchH test (attack out of the blind and courage test) so there isnt any reason for a SchH titled dog to fail the Korung.
The other interesting thing about the DMC Korung is that it can also show up training mistakes which can effect the dogs performance, just like it did with A'tim, who came unstuck at the Korung, even through he had everything imaginable thrown at him in the NVBK and never missed a beat.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I think this might be for another thread, but most dogs, when taken out of their sport can show odd behaviors as they have never seen this or that.

I have wondered if there is a window for this stuff, like there is when pups are young. If they do not see humans before the 4th month, they are essentially feral.

If you take a dog out of it's bubble and it blows up, and were to be chattery or bite weird, then I might put negatives against the dog. Not EVER seen this, and with the weird thresholds these dogs have, I am less likely to.

Still curious about if there is a window for this stuff that closes, well maybe not close, but...........oh **** I don't know, haven't thought it out enough.


Quote: yet when taken out of her safe zone her true character becomes present.

Is it her true character ??? How well would you do on a test for mechanics if you are not a mechanic ??? Also add in that I am gonna shake you, and swing you around by your mouth at the same time whether you get it right or not, trying to get you to believe that I am gonna hurt you.

The barrel thing could be mistaken for a trash can. If the dog has never seen this and does consider it a trash can, is she still a piece of shit even though she found her way back and got the tug ???

How does an evaluator really look at this exercise, without knowing the dogs history??? That test they are just looking for higher thresholds, as they are dumb Germans. LOL


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I think this might be for another thread, but most dogs, when taken out of their sport can show odd behaviors as they have never seen this or that.


Absolutley. When the first Mondio Ring event happened quality KNPV dogs were put off by the French decoys. I have no doubt when a quality FR dog goes up against a big Dutch decoy he might think twice. 



Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: yet when taken out of her safe zone her true character becomes present.
> 
> Is it her true character ??? How well would you do on a test for mechanics if you are not a mechanic ??? Also add in that I am gonna shake you, and swing you around by your mouth at the same time whether you get it right or not, trying to get you to believe that I am gonna hurt you.
> 
> ...


I wouldnt say that female is crap at all. You might have had a dog in the Korung that didnt flinch at the barrel, yet had it of been a unstable footing test he may have shown issues. And maybe while this female showed an issue with the barrel she may be fine on the footing test. Thats why recovery is so important.
If I owned a female like that I would obviously breed her to a dog that would stick his head in an Aligators mouth to get his tug. 
If nothing else at least the positive thing about this Korung is that its making people question what is a real problem, what isnt and what breeders need to pay attention to.


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

Interesting discussion, Jeff and Chris. I think I'd like to see a bunch of dogs go through this (of different breeds) to see what the overall reaction is. It really would be educational to see a group of "strong" dogs exposed to these tests. 

This kind of stuff is very interesting to me as I feel it relates directly to choosing a dog for real life work (my line of work at least). Pattern trained exercises don't show me much. I need to see how a dog reacts when he/she is out of his/her element.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Christopher Jones said:


> Lets be honest, you have had a few Buds now havent you?
> After rereading my post I will give you the posibility of some buds being involved I dident reread it No buds though
> "You bring up all sorts of east dogs that really don't have anything in common with much of the* crap of the west.*" with the SV
> What? Fixed it
> ...


I agree with what what you say. 
What takes away credibility in your posts is your comparison to the Mal "apples"
to the working German Shepherd "oranges"
Don't own a pickup.


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## James Degale (Jan 9, 2009)

Chris

I know some people in Australia, they say they've never heard of you. What club do you train at?


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Oh **** that. I have never heard of you, so where does that leave that arguement ????

Where is my video of your hard hitting GSD ??? I am ready, I have the rest of the day to watch it over and over and over.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Christopher Jones said:


> The DMC (German Mali Club) introduced their own Korung with a view to really test the dogs as hard as they could. They took alot of their ideas from the NVBK with regards to enviromental stresses and having a none pattern, not easy to train for senarios. It is so much more difficult than the GSD, Dobie or Rotti Korung it isnt even worth talking about.
> They have a Korung 1,2 and 3 which I believe has a higher grade of difficulity. They also have a scoring system looking more like a old DDR or Czech GSD breed survey using numbers. Hopefully someone more enlightened can explain the scoring and points systems.
> But heres a video of one female doing it from start to finish. As you could imagine the vast majority of GSD owners wouldnt even bother entering their dogs in something like this.
> But I guess thats why the Mali keeps going from strength to strength and the GSD, Dobie and Rotti is going backwards.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sy1lr0LKrS8


Hi Christopher, thanks for posting the video. Very interesting stuff. I hope if and when Raisers new organizatio hass breed surveys, they will actually have some teeth, and I think it probably will because he doesn't give a damn about placating the showshitter breeders. I don't know that the test should be exactly as the one in the video, but it should not be so easy that everybody gets a prize and shitters receive KKL1s or even KKL2s for that matter.

I agree that the vast majority of GSDs are show lines and would have great difficulty with this test; however, I believe the working line GSDs could handle this type of testing. Most importantly, the breed survey tests should be devloped so as to weed out the weak dogs, and demonstrate how or if the dog can handle pressure, which would with out a doubt, benefit the working line GSDs.


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Mike Scheiber said:


> I agree with what what you say.
> What takes away credibility in your posts is your comparison to the Mal "apples"
> to the working German Shepherd "oranges"
> Don't own a pickup.


Yeh, thats cool. I can understand that my genralisations maybe to general. I know there are lots of breeders and trainer of GSD's working the arses off trying to produce high quality animals. I have no problem with them.
From where I stand I see the DMC (German Mali Club) trying to improve their dogs by introducing things like they did in their Korung, yet from the SV I hear things like people voting on wether they are going to take the courage test out of SchH as they think it might be leading to some of the neck and back problems they have in their breed. This obviously isnt comming from the working people but the danger is in the fact that the show people are in far, far bigger numbers and they will win any vote.
This is obviously some of the things that the good working people see as a problem as well, and hence, things are happening like Raisers new GSD club. Even if you dont like Raiser, or the idea of a new club, hopefully it might make the SV try and address some of the concerns of the working people, in an attempt to try and stop them going to Raisers club. This is similar to what effect USA had on the GSDC of America, making them introduce SchH themselfs. Because, as you so rightly said, its all about money and control.
I actually do own a pick up. lol


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

susan tuck said:


> Hi Christopher, thanks for posting the video. Very interesting stuff. I hope if and when Raisers new organizatio hass breed surveys, they will actually have some teeth, and I think it probably will because he doesn't give a damn about placating the showshitter breeders. I don't know that the test should be exactly as the one in the video, but it should not be so easy that everybody gets a prize and shitters receive KKL1s or even KKL2s for that matter.
> 
> I agree that the vast majority of GSDs are show lines and would have great difficulty with this test; however, I believe the working line GSDs could handle this type of testing. Most importantly, the breed survey tests should be devloped so as to weed out the weak dogs, and demonstrate how or if the dog can handle pressure, which would with out a doubt, benefit the working line GSDs.


My comment that most GSD's would fail the test and how many of the owners would even enter their dogs was said because the vast majority of GSD's in Germany are show dogs. If 80% of the GSD's are showlines, and the SV introduced this test, what would the pass/fail stats look like? Thats what I was refering to, not the smaller % of working people. I was being breed general.
Anyways, I think I have beaten this thread to death


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

James Degale said:


> Chris
> 
> I know some people in Australia, they say they've never heard of you. What club do you train at?


2nd request.
Ok James, lets talk dogs. What dogs do you currently have? You mentioned your dog would make that Mali look average so I really am interested in him or her. What bloodlines? Any video clips?
Now lets see if you give any answers or info or wether you go "LOL, whatever, when you grow up then I might answer your question" I have heard you mention a number of times about how good your PP trained dog is yet havent seen anything of him?


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Christopher Jones said:


> My comment that most GSD's would fail the test and how many of the owners would even enter their dogs was said because the vast majority of GSD's in Germany are show dogs. If 80% of the GSD's are showlines, and the SV introduced this test, what would the pass/fail stats look like? Thats what I was refering to, not the smaller % of working people. I was being breed general.
> Anyways, I think I have beaten this thread to death


Not sure if it's a geographical thing but the working German Shepherd in my circle here in the US is never generalizes when talking about work or sport with show lines seldom if ever do you see a show dog competing in Schutzhund for the love of the sport.
As far as I'm concerned the breed is split and one has little to do with the other two completely different agendas.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Christopher Jones said:


> My comment that most GSD's would fail the test and how many of the owners would even enter their dogs was said because the vast majority of GSD's in Germany are show dogs. If 80% of the GSD's are showlines, and the SV introduced this test, what would the pass/fail stats look like? Thats what I was refering to, not the smaller % of working people. I was being breed general.
> Anyways, I think I have beaten this thread to death


I thought that was what you meant. I don't think you have beaten this thread to death, and again seeing that Mali breed test was great and something I did not know they did. I also hope the RSV2000 will consider titles from other grip sports be allowed as part of the breed survey qualification process Perhaps this might encourage more GSD participation in the other grip sports?


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## James Degale (Jan 9, 2009)

Christopher Jones said:


> Haha, thats quite funny.
> Lets see what I know about GSD's. Well I own a Gero z BZ daughter linebred on Omar z BZ, I own a Tom z PS daughter going back on Art z Lipin and Grim z PS. I own a Olymp Policia son going back on Ciro z PS and Titus z PS, I owned a Bonny z BZ daughter, I own a Chuligan z PS daughter going back to Lord Clo.
> I have imported a number of dogs into Australia for people including Warkos Anrebri (Czech Nat Competitor), Marko z BZ (IPO3, SchH3, ZVV3, 2 times Czech Nat comptitor all by 4 years of age), Dark Gaja Nova (Tom PS son, Titus PS Grandson). I have had litter from all these dogs and also Dares z Geradonu.
> These are dogs that people like Bernhard Flinks and Alex Bayer call "Awesome".
> ...


That's interesting. People seem not to have heard of a C Smith from Australia with those dogs, small dog community there too.

Chris Smith in the US does IPO with Malis......

A video? Who are you? Jeff, I'm not even going to bother.


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

James Degale said:


> That's interesting. People seem not to have heard of a C Smith from Australia with those dogs, small dog community there too.
> 
> Chris Smith in the US does IPO with Malis......
> 
> A video? Who are you? Jeff, I'm not even going to bother.


Well your well and truely a ****head. My name is C Jones, not C Smith you cracker.
And Im still waiting for your video. Damm if your dog goes into aviodience as much as you do when asked for one hes going be a total bag of shit.


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## James Degale (Jan 9, 2009)

Video..you first, please. 

Still never heard of a C Jones (typo above) from Australia. You could be a fat bloke from Sydney with a pet Mali struggling to get a BH for all I know...LOL. Or C smith...who knows.


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

I dont wanna get into this whole debate but as someone from oz i knew off christophers dogs long before he posted on this bored and australia has a small working dog community stretched over big distance my closes sport club is about 200 km away


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## Chip Blasiole (Jun 7, 2006)

I have been involved in studying/training workingline GSDs for the past ten years. I became somewhat knowledgeable about the hx of the breed, bloodlines, etc. I haven't been exposed to a ton of GSDs, but have come to the opinion that the best genetics of the breed have been lost, due to a variety of reasons, but essentially due to selecting for the wrong traits. Someone commented recently on another post that there are a few great GSDs, but they are rare. And I wonder if the great ones have the genetic prepotency to consistently produce anything near what they are. If you look at Jack's video of his Mals in 
China, those dogs remind me of the type of dog vom Stephanitz described in his book from the early 1900's. I know Raiser has talked about bringing Malinois blood back into the GSD breed to try to improve the breed, so it will be interesting to see how his project goes.


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## Al Curbow (Mar 27, 2006)

I think when debates like this get started people forget that the GSD was never intended to be the best at anything, but 2nd best at EVERYTHING, a true multi-tasker


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

James Degale said:


> Video..you first, please.
> 
> Still never heard of a C Jones (typo above) from Australia. You could be a fat bloke from Sydney with a pet Mali struggling to get a BH for all I know...LOL. Or C smith...who knows.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tnRGUvGY-js
There you go. Just a quick one of a female German Shepherd I imported and own and trained. Bought as a pup from Sweden. 
Now, where is your video? If your too scared just tell me what your dogs pedigree is? 
I actually dont think you own a dog. 
Your a joke, and I really dont have the time nor patience to answer you again.
Now wheres this "ignore" function?


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Lets knock off this crap, NOW!
If you have something legit to discuss then have at it. If you just intend to insult one another then take it somewhere else.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Interestingly enough, and probably not coincidently on 3/13/09 the SV breed warden, Reinhardt Meyer gave a lecture and much of it had to do with the lack of working ability in the showlines. On a different board, an SV member was kind enough to translate the speech for all us non-German speaking illiterates. Here is a link to the actual speech in German:

http://www.sv-lg-westfalen.de/images/stories/pdf/r__meyer_in_oer-erkenschwick1-2.pdf

The person who translated the speech on the Greeen Board also mentioned the background issues AKA Helmut Raiser. I have no doubt this concern over the work is only prompted by RSV2000 and the FCI.


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Chip Blasiole said:


> I have been involved in studying/training workingline GSDs for the past ten years. I became somewhat knowledgeable about the hx of the breed, bloodlines, etc. I haven't been exposed to a ton of GSDs, but have come to the opinion that the best genetics of the breed have been lost, due to a variety of reasons, but essentially due to selecting for the wrong traits. Someone commented recently on another post that there are a few great GSDs, but they are rare. And I wonder if the great ones have the genetic prepotency to consistently produce anything near what they are. If you look at Jack's video of his Mals in
> China, those dogs remind me of the type of dog vom Stephanitz described in his book from the early 1900's. I know Raiser has talked about bringing Malinois blood back into the GSD breed to try to improve the breed, so it will be interesting to see how his project goes.


Its an interesting discussion that I have had with friends. Is it that the GSD has gone backwards or is it a case of the Malinois getting better?
20 years ago the Malinois that people came in contact with in Germany and the US showed alot of the typical Malinois issues, namely nerves, hecticness, small, poor trackers and issues with grip. Since then the Malinois has really improved and now more and more quality Malis come up against the GSD's. 
So possibly the improvment in the Mali is the real reason people think the breed has gone backwards?


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## Al Curbow (Mar 27, 2006)

The breed went to shit because of show people, but like Mike said, it's a separate breed now . A mali is a different breed, pick a good speciman from both breeds and choose which one you personally like i guess.


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## Jason Sidener (Nov 8, 2006)

Al Curbow said:


> The breed went to shit because of show people


There are a LOT of working line people too that are just as guilty of watering down the GSD.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

susan tuck said:


> Interestingly enough, and probably not coincidently on 3/13/09 the SV breed warden, Reinhardt Meyer gave a lecture and much of it had to do with the lack of working ability in the showlines. On a different board, an SV member was kind enough to translate the speech for all us non-German speaking illiterates. Here is a link to the actual speech in German:
> 
> http://www.sv-lg-westfalen.de/images/stories/pdf/r__meyer_in_oer-erkenschwick1-2.pdf
> 
> The person who translated the speech on the Greeen Board also mentioned the background issues AKA Helmut Raiser. I have no doubt this concern over the work is only prompted by RSV2000 and the FCI.


Susan, there was a film on German TV about the "Pflegefall GSD" "Invalid GSD" yesterday. Reinhardt Meyer, at one of the GSD shows was talking about some of the dogs which were trotting round in the ring in front of him. He said when the offspring resemble the father, that's breeding power, or words to that effect. Yeah, carp backs they all had . He also mentioned that someone from Asia had come to look at a dog with a view to buying it. Sums of 100,000 Euros were mentioned...........

In an interview, someone said you can have a very nice-looking GSD but there's no point in showing it if you're not prepared to "tip" the judge nicely.

I know this film must have been filmed previously, but being shown 3 days after the admission of RSV-2000 to the VDH was a bit of a sock in the eye and not for RSV-2000.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I've seen some very good Malis over the years and GSDs. I was never interested in a GSD until I saw my trainer's dog from Leipheimer Moor in Germany. First of all, the dog pleased me in that he didn't look like a black and yellow Newfoundland and then I started to watch him work and others, too and what I saw impressed me.

I think it's harder to find a very good GSD than a similar quality Mali. I went to qualifiers, learned from my colleagues which lines were good, which breeders bred with HD 0 only, etc. We ended up buying our 2 from Germany from a breeder who was interested in producing dogs with edge. He even visited the Anti-terror unit in Bavaria to see what sort of dogs they needed there. He was an extremely good decoy.

Maybe it has been easier to "calm" the Mali down than "push" the GSD up. I don't know. I'm not a breeder. It must be in the breeder's own interest to breed excellent dogs - it's not just up to the "Verein".

All I know is that the dogs in "Raiser's Club" are already bred and it will take him and his crew a few years to create more excellent dogs but it's a step in the right direction.

One good point is that owners of dogs with poor HD results will get a bonus for submitting them and will have charges for submitting them refunded.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

If we all just think for a moment, it is the GSD breeders fault. The general public wants stuffed toys, as they are too stupid to be allowed real dogs and real responsibility.

THe breeders are just giving the public what they want, as breeders are mostly whores anyway. There aren't enough exceptions to say otherwise.


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## Chip Blasiole (Jun 7, 2006)

Several years ago, there was an interesting interview with Raiser on the internet, but I can't find the interview now. Basically, he was saying that the drive being selected for in GSDs, was often a by product of pain caused by spinal problems such as spondylosis and cauda equina. While the dogs showed intense drive at an early age, his theory was that the drive was often caused by pain and of course, the dogs would break down after a few years. He seemed to tout the approach of Malinois breeders, where x-rays were not as important as what the dog could actually do physically, such as the high palisade jumps and other agility challenges that most GSDs are no longer capable of. How many GSDs struggle with the meter hurdle, which is pretty basic compared to a palisade.


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

If it's the one I am thinking of, it is his infamous speech when he was SV Breed Warden, the one that so horrified the show line folk they basically got him thrown out. When I started a thread about GSDs on this board not too long ago I tried to find the speech so I could link to it and I could not find it either. I just figured I was having an off day and was not entering the right key words to find it through the search engine.

Maybe someone here knows how to find it and will provide a link.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Chip Blasiole said:


> How many GSDs struggle with the meter hurdle, which is pretty basic compared to a palisade.


None in working lines that I am aware of are you including the show dogs in your generalisation.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

This is probably what the European handlers get narked about. True, it's not all perfect but....

Clearing a 1 m hurdle is absolutely no problem for an athletic working dog GSD. I think the "big pond" can be a hindrance, not the hurdle:roll:


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## Chip Blasiole (Jun 7, 2006)

Mike,
I don't consider european high/show line GSDs to be working dogs. There is another post here about two GSDs having some trouble with the meter hurdle, and I assume they are from working lines. I have seen some fairly atheletic workingline GSDs who initially struggle with the meter hurdle, but get through via training. I believe the majority of well bred Mals/Dutch Shepherds can jump a meter hurdle with ease. Again, look at Jack's video from China and look at those Mal's ability to jump. The original GSD was more like those Mals, IMO.


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## Tina Rempel (Feb 13, 2008)

Sue, Is this the one?

http://www.gsdcgt.com/la_times_article.htm


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

That is an article about what happened as a result of Raiser's famous speech as breed warden!! It is strange, his speech was on the web, even an english translation version. It was easy to find, now it's gone! Whatever happened to "everything on the web is there forever"?


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## Andrew Rowley (Nov 3, 2008)

Here in the Uk we have a similar issue. What makes me laugh is the infighting between the show people. In my opinion we now have three distinct breeds.

There was a outcry here last year when a documentry focused on the difference between show and working lines of several breeds and the way dogs won crufts and shows not based on what they were bred for but on the freakish looks the breeders were exagerating and the deliberate breeding and show titleling of dogs with KNOWN health issues.

The working dog has no resembalnce to the show dog. It gets my goat the way people come up with comments like, 'oh but you can have both'. Tosh! You either breed a working dog or a show pet.

But i am with Raiser, keep the gsd, rott, mal etc a WORKING dog, let the show people get a bichon!!

http://www.videxgsd.com/to_split_or_not_to_split.htm


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## Erik Berg (Apr 11, 2006)

The dogs in the malinois korung is obviously trained for the bitework-part, I suppose they have at least an IPO1 and no one will probably enter without preparing their dogs for the environmental things added. The drawback with this is that not so many dogs in alitter will enter and the training put on the dog will affect the outcome. It would be nice if they had more untrained situations, like the barrels the dog was pretty nervous about despite doing pretty well in the bitework.

I heard that Raisers club will have a "mental-description" of younger dogs, 12 months old, don´t know if there is a maximum age, more as an easy way to test progeny of a stud, without the need for preparation and training/putting a title on a dog. I suppose they also will have some form of the korung the SV alreday has, with some bitework you prepare for.

Even if the malinois-korung is fun to watch I think the scandinavian/swedish one is a better way to test the dogs and for the breeders, because it takes no preparation so all dogs in a litter can be tested and you can thereby see some valuable traits in the dogs, like drive,courage,nerves,sociability, reaction to gunshots and so on. Seems like some form of those tests Raiser will introduce. The tests done in sweden if first a mental description for younger dogs, minimum age 12 months, the dogs reactions are graded in an intensity scale,1-5 in a number of situations. Dogs that pass that test can then do the "korung" which is similar but a little tougher with more situations added. The test for younger dogs from start to end can be seen here, the same GSD doing the routines except one because the filming was a bit bad so I took another dog but in the same situation. After that test is the korung, start to end with some different dogs.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxGI0XH-3es
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U_3UrDV2Pd4&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ID3iv1KjwBg&feature=channel_page
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zuPPTWiqHp4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9N_uU8f-hEY&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fC9t-N3bnqw&feature=related

The korung, starts with some interactions with people, then biting a tug from 5meters and 40 meters

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Hu_fpPdof0&feature=channel_page
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2pamwcAvGQ&feature=channel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J9zASZNuryA&feature=channel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m0j_9uvJWvY&feature=channel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hj_ho08_cg&feature=channel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YPrMbudS0go&feature=channel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uG9m_RVY27U
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pvdc5MIZJtY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ofq1F4ujQiA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-54f1YYloLU&feature=channel_page


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## Chad Byerly (Jun 24, 2008)

I was just watching this MR3 dog doing the Swedish "korning". 
Blackneck's Xa - Korning
Is this test the same thing, Erik?
Also, thanks for posting all those videos.


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## Erik Berg (Apr 11, 2006)

Hi Chad,

the MR dog is doing the old korung, there is a new version that started to be used in 2007, quite similar but some changes, a kelpie doing the new korung here, it seems to be more focus on the dogs bite and preydrive now,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6OSJt4fJ6H8


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## Chad Byerly (Jun 24, 2008)

Thanks Erik, for explaining and for a showing the new test being done by a Kelpie! (a breed I like)


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