# Dogue de Bordeaux



## Alex McRobb (Dec 21, 2010)

Hi all,

After meeting a DDB for the very first time a couple of months ago I have become very interested in the breed:-k

The breed standard states the temperament to be "Natural guarding instincts, vigilant and courageous without aggression. A good companion and very affectionate."

Does anyone have experience of this breed? In particular I would like to know if they are as naturally inclined to guard and defend as well as the web would have me believe.

Ideally looking for a family pet that will turn on either on command or when watching the home.

Thanks

Alex


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Alex McRobb said:


> Hi all,
> 
> After meeting a DDB for the very first time a couple of months ago I have become very interested in the breed:-k
> 
> ...


If you are just looking for intimidating display most likely not a problem,

If you are looking for dog to engage an intruder:

the right one, sure. the right one with training, sure.

the wrong one no, the wrong with with training, no...


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## Ricardo Ashton (Jun 3, 2010)

IMO a DDB would be better suited to utilize the intimidation factor of guard work. For a more fomidable guardian the Bullmastiff would be a better choice to protect family & property. Most of the DDB's I've come across seem to be kinda soft.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Ricardo Ashton said:


> IMO a DDB would be better suited to utilize the intimidation factor of guard work. For a more fomidable guardian the Bullmastiff would be a better choice to protect family & property. Most of the DDB's I've come across seem to be kinda soft.


I think that might be true...but
I looked high and low for quite a while to find breeders that actually worked and tested their BM stock about 15 yrs ago and found none. I found a handful of owners that had dogs in training.

All the breeders I talked to were very much against the idea of training a BM to bite..but all of them first told me how naturally protective they were, and how they made great guard dogs. I asked them if they were open to someone testing their stock, none were open to it.

maybe things have changed some..


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## Courtney DuCharme (Feb 5, 2011)

I believe Nicole Stark on here has a DDB, I'm still too new to know what she trains in though (I just tend to notice the mastiff, bullie, boxer, dobies real quick....gotta love the avatars)


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## Larry Krohn (Nov 18, 2010)

Go with a good Rotty or Cane Corso


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## Courtney DuCharme (Feb 5, 2011)

Cane Corso

those are my favorite mastiffs........


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Larry Krohn said:


> Go with a good Rotty or Cane Corso


even better. or a good presa,,if you can find one


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## Ricardo Ashton (Jun 3, 2010)

"All the breeders I talked to were very much against the idea of training a BM to bite..but all of them first told me how naturally protective they were, and how they made great guard dogs. I asked them if they were open to someone testing their stock, none were open to it." 

Joby, the reason they're unwilling is because if a Bullmastiff gets a good full bite, lacerations & punctures aren't the only possible injuries. They tend to knock whatever they attack to the ground, they are very strong willed & physically powerful (so stopping a full out enraged BM is pretty difficult) and a proper strong bite from one of these can break a mans ulna or radius. Thats a lot of responsibility for anyone that owns the breed to consider before allowing someone to agitate such a dog.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Ricardo Ashton said:


> "All the breeders I talked to were very much against the idea of training a BM to bite..but all of them first told me how naturally protective they were, and how they made great guard dogs. I asked them if they were open to someone testing their stock, none were open to it."
> 
> Joby, the reason they're unwilling is because if a Bullmastiff gets a good full bite, lacerations & punctures aren't the only possible injuries. They tend to knock whatever they attack to the ground, they are very strong willed & physically powerful (so stopping a full out enraged BM is pretty difficult) and a proper strong bite from one of these can break a mans ulna or radius. Thats a lot of responsibility for anyone that owns the breed to consider before allowing someone to agitate such a dog.


I understand where you are coming from as well, but it can be safely done, we all know this. I have since worked a handful of BM in bitework, without injury...

A BM is no different than any other large 100+lb molloser in regards to power and bite strength..no different than a Rottweiler, Cane Corso, Presa Canario,Bandog, Boerboel, American Bulldog, Fila...etc.etc.etc.. no different in regards to risk factor either

The point is this, there "were" (not sure if there is now, but probably not) no working BM breeders, they are show or pet breeders that will tell a person that the breed is protective and makes an effective Protection and guard dog, they dont say *watch* dog, or *deterrent* they say family protector and guard dog, with no selection or testing in manwork. Breeders that refuse to train or test or work their stock in any way...most all of them after saying how protective and effective they are as guard dogs, did mention that they pretty much are trying to eliminate aggressive traits from the breed, similar to what was done with the english mastiff.

That is a couch potato to me, not a protection or guard dog...but too each his own...


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## Ricardo Ashton (Jun 3, 2010)

I see your point. Any dog that is aquired to do a job should be able to show it can do the job. Lets just hope the OP finds what he's looking for.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Most of the bully breeds I've ran across are either nerve bags, nice pets or couch potatoes. 
That includes the DDB, CC (in particular), etc. 
Yes! There are some that can do the job but most of them are all super dogs in the owners mind.


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## Tammy St. Louis (Feb 17, 2010)

I own a DDB , she is super soft. she is a puppy mill rescue momma, she was over 5 when i got her, she can look intimidating, but is scared of alot of stuff, I also rescued a DDB from our local pound who is about 2 yrs old, she is super friendly and funny , ( typicall bully ) very social , I have seen her turn on 2 times with 2 differnt men who she felt threatend from , she was DEFFINALTY intimidating then, 
but i dont think they are a very good guard dog, for looks yes,, unless you go to a breeder her likes that and breeds dogs for that purpose 
here is my girl


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

here is the best CC I have ran into so far....in the top 3 hardest biters I have taken bites from...guy is super nice guy, and had put a lot of work into that dog, it did well in our local PP event circuit here..and he was not a suitsucker type of dog, super solid though...and great control...

Battle of the Bulls, in the Protection Tournament, civil agitation/360 body protection with distractions (tugs/sleeves) he did not go for the toys....I was "decoy" for this part of the tournie...









and here he is with his awards from one of my shows...
9 different events. 3 judges with decoy input in some events (5 decoys) think he took first in like 5 of them, cant remember..took top dog of the day in overall points...against some good dogs of varied breeds. (I made the trophies lol they looked nice but wouldn't want to store them at my house ...)


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## Jhun Brioso (Dec 28, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> here is the best CC I have ran into so far....in the top 3 hardest biters I have taken bites from...guy is super nice guy, and had put a lot of work into that dog, it did well in our local PP event circuit here..and he was not a suitsucker type of dog, super solid though...and great control...
> 
> Battle of the Bulls, in the Protection Tournament, civil agitation/360 body protection with distractions (tugs/sleeves) he did not go for the toys....I was "decoy" for this part of the tournie...
> 
> ...


Now that's a cane corso!


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## Alex McRobb (Dec 21, 2010)

Thanks everyone for there input so far.

Before I had done any real research in PP dogs I bought my first rottie. I love the breed and from the breed standard I stupidly thought that every rottie would instantly be a perfect PP dog 
He was an amazing pet, perfect with the kids and quick to learn but had absolutely no drive and would turn to flight every time, the jack Russell would be running towards trouble while the rottie would be running away.

When selecting a breeder/puppy we were looking for the perfect pet and soon found out that a perfect pet does not make a perfect pp dog, despite what breed standards would have a novice believe.

So I now need something that is going to fit into family life, isn't going to be hyperactive but is very suspicious of strangers and will not hesitate in stepping up to protect my wife/kids when I am away.

I would defiantly consider another rottie but also like the mastiff breeds, its just trying to find a breeder/pup with the right temperament.

Cane Corso's/presa's are really nice but I have not come across anyone who breeds working lines in the uk.


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## Alex McRobb (Dec 21, 2010)

Tammy- Your DDB looks beautiful and as you say they definatley look the part but whats the point in having a dog for protection that can not protect. 
My rottie went into defensive drive only once while being out with my wife at night but I have my doubts about him taking it to the next stage.


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## Dave Martin (Aug 11, 2010)

Awesome that you're doing your research.. the more you delve into the lines of each breed you're considering is the more comfortable you'll be that the dog you bring home could be nicely suited for your family and lifestyle. 

I agree with a 'properly bred' Rott, CC or Presa; I know at least a couple of each that would engage your average intruder, if it even got to that point. Since you don't seem to be in any imminent danger and just want a dog that will step up if/when the situation arises, I think one of those breeds can definitely perform with the training. 

I do agree DDB are cool looking dogs, I loosely followed this kennel in Hungary for a while but have no idea (first hand anyway) what they breed for in terms of temperament, so I assume soft is probably just fine to them :| .. http://www.tanakajdszepe.com/

Best of luck with your search.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I love Molossers - we owned one once - a Fila Brasileiro, that guarded the homestead, even at 11 years' old.

He loved kids and adults who weren't frightened of him.

The Bordeaux Dogge was part of the Molosser Club Switzerland at one time but, due to their taking the French TAN test, they parted company.

I cannot honestly see that a Bull Mastiff can be placed higher as a guard dog than the Bordeaux Dogge.

Here, in Switzerland, the owners of these dogs are mostly under a delusion - sometimes it is horrific to read what they think of their dogs.

The Molosser dogs in Europe would be good dogs if not for the elite owners who think that just having one running around the estate is enough to frighten anyone off.

Disgusted
Gill


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## Dave Martin (Aug 11, 2010)

May want to also consider the German Boxer. To me they're smaller, more agile/athletic looking versions of DDB/Bullmastiff's that really aren't the off the wall nutjobs that AKC Boxers seem to be. Ours lives in our home and just relaxes when we do, but lights up when it's time.. he's not even a year in a half yet but I'll go out on a limb and say I'm more and more sure everyday that he'll bite for real when he matures (I'm actually planning on stealing him from my GF to do PP with after she titles him in SchH). 

The good ones are hard to find but let me know if you start to consider them and I'll do my best to help.

Yea, they do drool just a little bit..


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

That dog in the thumbnail is a boxer?


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## Michael Swetz (Jul 27, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> here is the best CC I have ran into so far....in the top 3 hardest biters I have taken bites from...guy is super nice guy, and had put a lot of work into that dog, it did well in our local PP event circuit here..and he was not a suitsucker type of dog, super solid though...and great control...
> 
> Battle of the Bulls, in the Protection Tournament, civil agitation/360 body protection with distractions (tugs/sleeves) he did not go for the toys....I was "decoy" for this part of the tournie...
> 
> ...


Do you happen to know what kennel this dog was from?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Michael Swetz said:


> Do you happen to know what kennel this dog was from?


Boondock

I do not have any intimate knowledge of the dog or the kennel he is from, just have run into him a few times, and really liked him..nice solid dog...


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## Dave Martin (Aug 11, 2010)

Gillian Schuler said:


> That dog in the thumbnail is a boxer?


Yes ma'am, a German/Finnish bred Boxer at 13 months old. Here's a link to his pedigree with more pics and videos.. http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/592809/Boxnen's Horatio Caine/


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## Larry Krohn (Nov 18, 2010)

Joby Becker said:


> here is the best CC I have ran into so far....in the top 3 hardest biters I have taken bites from...guy is super nice guy, and had put a lot of work into that dog, it did well in our local PP event circuit here..and he was not a suitsucker type of dog, super solid though...and great control...
> 
> Battle of the Bulls, in the Protection Tournament, civil agitation/360 body protection with distractions (tugs/sleeves) he did not go for the toys....I was "decoy" for this part of the tournie...
> 
> ...


 If that was top three what was the other two hardest bites you have taken?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

should be more specific..top 3 in a hidden sleeve, wear the bite was easily assessed... who knows...the ****er bit full mouth, super hard, with intentions to seriously hurt..The others I am thinking of were a Shepherd and a Nice Rottweiler...

Suit would probably be Endor.

Sleeve would probably any number of GSD or a Presa, hard to tell obviously...

It is subjective terms I know...point is that dog bit hard as hell....compared to dogs of any breed...


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## Chris Jones II (Mar 20, 2011)

Going back to the testing of stock, isn't the Bull Mastiff bred to use his body mass to subdue an intruder rather than bite? I though that was a specific trait they were selected for, very high tolerance for being physically harmed without actually biting. Maybe that has something to do with the lack of desire to test breeding stock on a suit, they tend not to bite readily?


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## Laney Rein (Feb 9, 2011)

We have a DDB next door and I will tell you she is great with her family but........she has killed three of her own dogs (a rottie and 2 eng mastiffs), several cats, 6 large parrots, a neighbor's goat, several chickens, attacked my rottweiler (when my rottie tried to defend an attack from her on me), she has gone after neighbor's horses and several neighbors leading to the sheriff being called out, animal control, the livestock inspector, etc. I can honestly tell you that the only thing so far that has stopped her is us finally having to fully fence our ag property and bear spray. Next time she comes at me she will meet a shotgun and the trash can or a trip out into the desert to be dumped.

So from that, I'm sure you can assess my opinion of the breed. You might have a great family protector but plan on $1 million plus on homeowner's insurance. JMO


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## Tammy St. Louis (Feb 17, 2010)

>>>>So from that, I'm sure you can assess my opinion of the breed.


WOW your gonna judge a whole breed on your neigbours dogs behaviour !!! good thinking


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## Dave Martin (Aug 11, 2010)

Laney Rein said:


> So from that, I'm sure you can assess my opinion of the breed. You might have a great family protector but plan on $1 million plus on homeowner's insurance. JMO


You say you own(ed) a Rottweiler.. you know how many Rotts there are throughout the country that (unfortunately) exhibit the exact behavior you described? 

Why would you care for this breed over the other? I doubt you could really be that close-minded..


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## Laney Rein (Feb 9, 2011)

I have had 2 rotties that have both lived to 10 years old. Both were naturally protective when needed to be but never attacked a person, another animal, killed anything, and were always devoted animals. I have also owned probably 20 plus other breeds from shepherds, boxers, collies, great danes, mals, herding dogs, etc. I have worked in the veterinary field for many many years and not once have I ever encountered a dog like this. I will give you that I do not know many DDBs as there aren't many out there, but like any breed that becomes popular due to movie ratings, tends to get bred by the wrong people. Pit bulls are wonderful dogs - but due to insurance, I couldn't own one. In my limited experience, the few DDBs I have been around have not been people friendly to be around or work on. I have never had a rottie try to bite me and I've worked with lots of them, even druggies guard dogs. I have never had to worry about owning a number of dogs and fear coming home with one of them torn apart by the other. I witnessed this dog kill a bull mastiff and could do nothing to stop it. Could you witness that and forget it?


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## Tammy St. Louis (Feb 17, 2010)

>>> I witnessed this dog kill a bull mastiff and could do nothing to stop it. Could you witness that and forget it?

no but could you judge ALL DDBs because of it, Guess so....

PS I have met some rotties who have killed other dogs and tried to bite me and have bitten other people , I still like the breed, but may not like THAT dog


And I may even LIKE that dog, but not like the owners,


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## Laney Rein (Feb 9, 2011)

Well, you know, Tammy, we are allowed our opinions and our right to disagree. I'm glad you have a good experience with them, I so far, have not. Working over 20 plus years in both Colorado and where I am now and seeing police dogs and drug lord dogs, not once in all those years have I ever encountered a dog like this, so I'm either unlucky to see the only one like it, or it's the only one, per your reasoning.

Again, my opinion is all it is, and that's what he asked for was our personal experiences with THIS breed.


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## Tammy St. Louis (Feb 17, 2010)

well I own one, and I also own pit bulls who are banned in the province i live in because of close minded people that judged a whole entire breed on a few bad ass dogs, 

My dogs have not attacked anyone,.... yet i constantly deal with people who dont like my dogs, because they heard stories of bad ones, 

Just gets on my nerves ,


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## Laney Rein (Feb 9, 2011)

Well mine isn't stories I heard, it's personal experience for the last 5 years. I know how it feels because I dearly love my rotties but they recently came up on our home owner's BSL and we were told to get rid of ours or they would cancel our insurance. This dog has protected me and nutured many a kitten and baby goat, so no way would I put her down (she was 8 at the time and would not think of rehoming her that late in life), so we changed our insurance. When I chose a new protector I went to a breed not likely to be listed for a while. I have never met a bad pit, it's usually the owner's fault for the bad ones. The neighbor is not good but she has not caused this in this dog. Just a bad dog.

So sorry if you felt singled out or like I was debunking your breed, just telling a true life experience.


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## Alex McRobb (Dec 21, 2010)

Hey Laney- Really sorry to hear about the ordeal that is still ongoing. 

I cannot believe how irresponsible some owners are, the DDB that is next door to you is out of control and any responsible owner should have taken actions well before now.

Dave- Thanks for your input re German boxer. To be honest up to now I had never considered boxers as the only ones that I had met have all been anxious or all bark. It is nice to know that there are still working lines. I will need to look into the working lines more.

Due to the insane laws that the UK have we are limited to what dogs we are allowed to own, this cancels out one or two good breeds.


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## Brian Anderson (Dec 2, 2010)

Laney Rein said:


> We have a DDB next door and I will tell you she is great with her family but........she has killed three of her own dogs (a rottie and 2 eng mastiffs), several cats, 6 large parrots, a neighbor's goat, several chickens, attacked my rottweiler (when my rottie tried to defend an attack from her on me), she has gone after neighbor's horses and several neighbors leading to the sheriff being called out, animal control, the livestock inspector, etc. I can honestly tell you that the only thing so far that has stopped her is us finally having to fully fence our ag property and bear spray. Next time she comes at me she will meet a shotgun and the trash can or a trip out into the desert to be dumped.
> 
> So from that, I'm sure you can assess my opinion of the breed. You might have a great family protector but plan on $1 million plus on homeowner's insurance. JMO


That dog needs a bullet in the head and possibly the owners too.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Brian Anderson said:


> That dog needs a bullet in the head and possibly the owners too.



DDB is not known for their friendliness with other animals...sounds like a terrible match for ownership in this case...proper handling/training and proper containment could have probably avoided every incident with him from the sounds of it..this is one of those Dolt pet owner types of people for sure....

That being said I have had a couple Rottweilers that would be just like that dog if allowed to...people are real idiots sometimes...

That dog needs to be contained properly and have some training actually done with it. 

It also does not seem like a good candidate to be loose around other animals...you would think they would get that after the first scuffle with another dog...

to allow it to kill that many animals in there own home, tells me they are fukking idiots, and the dog MIGHT have been a decent dog..in someone elses hands...but at this point a bullet might be the best thing, since it has been allowed to get that bad...

When I had presas, I came home more than a couple times to find my neighbors dogs, dead in my yard..I had a fence that varied from 6-8 feet high...

usually I had a bitch in heat at the time...the one neighbor stacked a bunch of railroad ties against my back fence which was 8 feet,basically creating a ladder for loose dogs to climb up and jump into my yard...when I saw his Rottie standing up looking like he was going to jump in my yard...I went over and had a talk with him, and helped him build a kennel for his dog. I liked him and his dog and did not want anything bad to happen...


I watched a nutty Standard Poodle get shredded in my driveway once, while a guy was walking his two Rotts and two Huskies. Poodle got loose from the house and ran 1/2 a block up and jumped right in the middle, .. it was a real mess. not the guys fault though...even though the poodles owner thought it was his fault, the dog lived...lost his testicles though..


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

You don't see an awful lot of them in the UK, but you do see the odd one. I had a not so comfortable experience whilst out walking with my jrt one day a couple years back or so.

I had spotted the dogs, a dog and a bitch both off leash, before they or the couple with them had seen me, I picked up my jrt and waited for a bit hoping the folks would see me before their dogs did.

The dogs clocked me and came running over, the woman seemed to go very pale, and instantly got into their car which was parked right by the field without even trying to call on the dogs. She looked frightened which alarmed me, and just sat bolt upright staring ahead in the car. I had one dog at the front of me and the other one behind me slobbering and checking me right out, the guy seemed afraid to move in and take hold of them....he just kept calling on them, but wouldn't move in to remove them from my person.

I kept my cool and made conversation with the guy whilst inching closer towards him, it did end well but I was non too happy about that. I had read in the papers a few weeks prior about a couple who were out walking their dog in a forestry when their dog (golden retriever) was attacked and killed by two DDB, and the guy had his arm severed in the incident. Apparently the female owner in that scene had turned about and ran when the attack happened.


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## Alex McRobb (Dec 21, 2010)

maggie fraser said:


> You don't see an awful lot of them in the UK, but you do see the odd one. I had a not so comfortable experience whilst out walking with my jrt one day a couple years back or so.
> 
> I had spotted the dogs, a dog and a bitch both off leash, before they or the couple with them had seen me, I picked up my jrt and waited for a bit hoping the folks would see me before their dogs did.
> 
> ...


Maggie - I have experienced a similar experience when two young lads were out with a fully grown male husky and boxer, not a pleasant experience made worse by seeing the panic in the boys face as they shout over that they are not dog friendly!!

Given the current dog laws in the UK does anyone have any other ideas of ideal PP breeds that may have not been mentioned?

Current UK law: 

the Pit Bull Terrier
the Japanese tosa
the Dogo Argentino
the Fila Brasileiro
"It is important to note that, in the UK, dangerous dogs are classified by “type”, not by breed label. This means that whether a dog is considered dangerous, and therefore prohibited, will depend on a judgment about its physical characteristics, and whether they match the description of a prohibited ‘type’. This assessment of the physical characteristics is made by a court."


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

Alex, why not go for a good gsd? Are you particularly looking for something exotic?

I think it likely an off breed sourced in the uk will be for off breed value given our current laws. And if you consider importing, it will unlikely be younger than nine/ten months due to import law.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> DDB is not known for their friendliness with other animals...


Joby you are right and that's a bit of an understatement of the situation. I had pits for 12 years prior to DDB and trust me when I say that comparing the two, it wasn't the pits that I found myself terribly concerned about when it came to other animals.


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## maggie fraser (May 30, 2008)

I've seen a couple of Kangals and Anatolians advertised on the free lists, they're pretty fierce looking dogs and known for their aggression if that's the kind of thing you're after.


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## Garland Whorley (Jun 5, 2008)

Hey... I have been working a couple of Bordes. DIFFICULT dog to get comfortable with working.. Not to train but for the dog, Breeders have bred it out of the dog. However I do know of a guy that has a couple you can test. He is planning on breeding in the future, however now would be a excellent time to check out what you getting. Let me know if you interested will get his info. He has Video etc, and you are MORE than welcome to work them. Pretty sure he wouldn't mind


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