# cgc test



## John Ly (Mar 26, 2014)

what are your opinions on a dog that cant pass the cgc test? i dont plan on taking it but just reading through the rules i know theres no way my dog would allow someone to pet his head or pick up his foot. that person would die. 

he's fine around strangers. i let him off leash around my friends and he just ignores them. i go hiking with them and he just ignores them all. not social. aloof. he just doesnt like to be touched. trying to pet his head will most likely get you bit or at least your hand grabbed in his mouth. 

do you think all shepherds should be able to pass the cgc test or depends on the dogs temperment?


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

shouldn't be a big deal for most dogs that aren't gonna be professional protection trained (PSD's, etc) and away from people most of their lives
- about a third of our mwd's would have no problems passing it

btw, how does he handle vet handling ?
sure, you can always muzzle him up and restrict him when he sees a vet, but that makes it hard for alcon
- and if it gets worse, the vet might tell you to go elsewhere or require sedation, and that always has a potential for problems. good friend of mine lost a good dog because of it

- the way you write it, it sounds like it's just a fact of life cause "that's the way he is", but to me sounds like a problem you might need to work on...what are you doing about it ?

many reasons for handling reactivity ... whattya figure is the reason for your dog ??


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## Rob Maltese (Jan 8, 2014)

rick smith said:


> shouldn't be a big deal for most dogs that aren't gonna be professional protection trained (PSD's, etc) and away from people most of their lives
> - about a third of our mwd's would have no problems passing it
> 
> btw, how does he handle vet handling ?
> ...


My dog has no problem with me or close family friends petting his head without moving or even lifting his paws without fussing. However if a stranger would to do it he would not act aggressive, he would not completely fuss but he would look up and try to avoid it - it's discomfort, I'm not going to correct my dog for displaying discomfort for something. 

I've been interested in the CGC but as the OP posted looking at the rules, I'm not interested.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Rob Maltese said:


> it's discomfort, I'm not going to correct my dog for displaying discomfort for something.


cant you think of any other options?

Make him think handling means food or something good is coming? Turn his frown upside down?


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## Rob Maltese (Jan 8, 2014)

Dave Colborn said:


> cant you think of any other options?
> 
> Make him think handling means food or something good is coming? Turn his frown upside down?


Sure. Like I said though, strangers won't be handling my dog... He's real good at reading me, understanding who I deem okay. If I'm okay with the person, 95% of the time he is okay with folks petting him on the head and grabbing his paws...

I'm not going to have strangers just feeding my dog treats either, not something I'm interested in.


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

Let's keep this on topic...for fairness to the op if anything....




Rob Maltese said:


> Sure. Like I said though, strangers won't be handling my dog... He's real good at reading me, understanding who I deem okay. If I'm okay with the person, 95% of the time he is okay with folks petting him on the head and grabbing his paws...
> 
> I'm not going to have strangers just feeding my dog treats either, not something I'm interested in.


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

John Ly said:


> what are your opinions on a dog that cant pass the cgc test? i dont plan on taking it but just reading through the rules i know theres no way my dog would allow someone to pet his head or pick up his foot. that person would die.
> 
> he's fine around strangers. i let him off leash around my friends and he just ignores them. i go hiking with them and he just ignores them all. not social. aloof. he just doesnt like to be touched. trying to pet his head will most likely get you bit or at least your hand grabbed in his mouth.
> 
> do you think all shepherds should be able to pass the cgc test or depends on the dogs temperment?


You have to look at what the CGC was designed for. To give some kind of baseline on the dog's temperment and ability to tolerate other humans and dogs. Dogs that will be out and about with people or in positions where they may interact with others or other dogs. If you don't plan on this kinda thing with your dog nor plan on taking the test then why are you bothering with even looking it up? 

I know of several search dog organizations that REQUIRE a dog pass some kind of behavior test. If the dog can't then they don't test or be certified. Years ago, alot of sar folks tolerated non-social dogs but those days are passing. The dog doesn't have to love a stranger but neither are they allowed to act on it.


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## John Ly (Mar 26, 2014)

My dog is fine with strangers Imo. Only thing I tell them is ignore the dog. I play fetch with him on the front yard all the time. Kids walk by and bike by. Sometimes they stop and ask to pet him. I say no but I allow them to throw his ball for him. He isn't reactive or barking or anything. Just indifferent. But at the same time I've seen him sniff people and he's fine but if they try to touch his head he'll bite. 

When he goes to the vet he is muzzled. I went to a vet where the vet tech was adamant that she had to handle him while doctor was giving the shot. I was adamant that it's best for me to handle him. Vet said it's best to let the tech. Doc went behind to give a shot and dog turned his head to look. The tech gave him a Stern no! And a quick pop of the collar. He immediately muzzle punched her almost through the wall. I went to another vet and he let me handle the dog and the dog sat still while doc gave him two shots on his back. No problems. 

He just doesn't like to be touched or handled by strangers. With family the little ones give him kisses and rub all over his face with no problem. Question really is should he be taught to accept petting from strangers or just let him be?


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## Dave Colborn (Mar 25, 2009)

John Ly said:


> Question really is should he be taught to accept petting from strangers or just let him be?


I think with effort you could train most to pass a cgc. I think most that pass the cgc can still bite under circumstances to elicit a bite.

Only you can answer your question above. Is it important to you?


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## Rob Maltese (Jan 8, 2014)

John Ly said:


> But at the same time I've seen him sniff people and he's fine but if they try to touch his head he'll bite.


This to me is concerning for sure... if your dog is going to bite for a simple head touch attempt then muzzling should be done for any outside action that he might have interaction with kids or even some adults.


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## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

John Ly said:


> But at the same time I've seen him sniff people and he's fine but if they try to touch his head he'll bite.
> 
> He just doesn't like to be touched or handled by strangers. With family the little ones give him kisses and rub all over his face with no problem. Question really is should he be taught to accept petting from strangers or just let him be?


I would suggest you get a good lawyer lined up. Knowing that this behavior and still allowing people close enough to touch or interact with the dog is negligent on your part. If you want the dog to interact with strangers then you need to fix this or muzzle the dog when around people. Or tell the people to keep the hell back. Three feet would be a good start, six feet would be better.

But seriously, this question of acceptance of strangers is one you need to have a talk with yourself about. Yes, I want him to tolerate a non-aggressive stranger's touch or No, I don't. In which case you need to take measures to protect the general public for unintentional actions by them or the dog.

But back to the original question. I think a good stable PPD dog should be able to pass a CGC.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

John Ly said:


> what are your opinions on a dog that cant pass the cgc test? QUOTE]
> 
> I have one that didn't pass. I rather like the dog despite that. Her training plan at the time didn't include build up to passing the CGC evaluation, but I did enter expecting that the dog would pass.
> 
> ...


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

you started out this thread with a pretty strong statement :
"i know theres no way my dog would allow someone to pet his head or pick up his foot. that person would die."

"My dog is fine with strangers Imo.....but if they try to touch his head he'll bite."
.... which means (to me) he's NOT fine with strangers, even tho u have watered it down a bit the second time around 

"He just doesn't like to be touched or handled by strangers."
.... and you are ok with that as it stands and are not doing anything to change it ?
....sorry if it sounds like a repeat question .... it is 

"Question really is should he be taught to accept petting from strangers or just let him be?"
- i realize now that's all you want to get out of this thread, but i can't answer it without getting sarcastic, so i won't 
- to pet or not to pet ? who cares ? that's up to every owner to decide

----------------------------------------------

- people post a thread without providing a lot of details and then they start asking questions
- responders ask them other questions trying to fill in the gaps, or they perceive the issue differently than the OP
- posters rarely answer responders questions specifically
- thread goes in different directions

in my own case.....
i often try and suggest looking at the thread from a different perspective because i think it is important and will help the OP
- often the OP and other responders don't agree it's important, so they consider it off topic 

makes no diff to me, but i still do it based on experience with clients who have come to me stating a problem they think they have and i see they have overlooked some basic element of training or they are in denial about other important issues they either haven't noticed or didn't think it was important at the time

ime, when they open up their minds they end up getting better overall results in the long run

but as dave said, only YOU can answer YOUR questions

and i think posters rarely change their mind anyway based on what they read from someone they don't know personally ... 

so any type of online training guidance is rather useless imo //lol//


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

rick smith said:


> and i think posters rarely change their mind anyway based on what they read from someone they don't know personally ...
> 
> so any type of online training guidance is rather useless imo //lol//


Maybe not but I do. I ask questions not because I want someone to agree with me but because I want an honest answer and am hoping to do just that (learn and change my perspective on something I don't fully understand). I may not see or be able to relate to the rationale offered at the time but you better believe that if I ask for input and get it that I will apply it to see what the outcome will be. 

Some visit this forum for reasons I don't fully understand. I joined to share a passion of mine with others and to learn from a broader network of people. Members that give their time to honestly answer questions or comment on issues people are struggling with deserve to be heard and their perspectives should be considered. To those that open posts and choose to step over a question like it's a pile of shit when they can be of help, well I guess it must be awfully good to be where you are at. Try not to forget how you managed to get there.

BTW Rick, I kinda got the feeling that John asked the question (actually expanded upon what he was wondering about) because he might be considering that there could be downside to his dogs behavior and wanted some input. Most people don't put that kind of information out there on a forum like this unless they're trying to be open minded and genuinely want an opportunity to see the situation in a different light.


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## John Ly (Mar 26, 2014)

always gotta pick out the useful posts from the crap =)

i got much better advice from another place which was basically turn it into an obedience exercise for the dog. make it sit and people should be able to touch it without a reaction. a clear headed dog doesnt have to be social but should be stable enough to tolerate it when asked. made a lot of sense. 

i'd rather have a dog that is naturally suspicious of strangers over one that someone can just walk up and steal. i will train him to accept being pet when asked but honestly that might only be a couple of times in his life.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

John Ly said:


> always gotta pick out the useful posts from the crap =)
> 
> i got much better advice from another place which was basically turn it into an obedience exercise for the dog. make it sit and people should be able to touch it without a reaction. a clear headed dog doesnt have to be social but should be stable enough to tolerate it when asked. made a lot of sense.
> 
> i'd rather have a dog that is naturally suspicious of strangers over one that someone can just walk up and steal. i will train him to accept being pet when asked but honestly that might only be a couple of times in his life.



Pretty much what I did.

My older GSD doesn't want to be bothered by anyone he doesn't know. He has no problem with people he doesn't know when they are around him even when I'm with him but he doesn't like their attention and he'll let them know it.

Through obedience he passed the CGC with no issues. The CGC training has nothing to do with how he acts outside those perimeters of the test. 

My younger GSD is a goofy clown that wil accept anyone if they don't give him a reason not to. He does have a serious side if you tap into it. 

He also has his CGC. 

IMO I think any dog that isn't totally nucking futs should be able to pass with little problems with a bit of basic training .


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

glad you got the help you wanted

btw, i didn't see any crap posts here on the WDF, but it's the only one i check


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## Karen M Wood (Jun 23, 2012)

The CGC is just a basic manners test, nothing more. It is suppose to show that your dog has some basic training and manners in public. It's not the American Temperament test or the BH. Both those test require much more of the dog. 
If your dog can't pass the CGC then you really should follow the other's advice and tell people not to mess with him at all. 
I've met a lot of Police Dept dogs that can not pass a CGC and a lot of BYB pit bull that could. 
All my own dogs get their CGC's because i feel it's the base line temperament test. 
But it's not the be all or end all of testing.
And it's suppose to be for the general public who's dogs may only have one or two training classes. Fun stuff!
But regardless it's your dog have fun with him.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I also get the CGC and the TT both.

I believe the courts acknowledge the AKC titles and certificates. Having the CGC and the TT (not AKC) are a good CYA especially when you have a bite trained dog. 

JUST an FYI

The CGC isn't an actual title. It's a certificate and the recommendations are to renew it every couple of yrs.


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## Christi Taylor (Feb 17, 2009)

Actually, the CGC can now be added as a title to AKC registration for an extra fee.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Christi Taylor said:


> Actually, the CGC can now be added as a title to AKC registration for an extra fee.


Thanks Chris. It's been 5-6 yrs since I went through it. 
I was also a tester for the CGC but never kept up with the yearly renewal. 

VERY simple, online test for being certified to test.


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## Christian Rio (Jun 21, 2014)

I think it's wise to get your dog trained and be sociable around people. A CGC, CGCA and TT title on your dog and obedience titles are evidence that you are a responsible dog owner in the event your dog bites a person or another pet. An insurance company sees a dog biting a person or another pet as the same thing. A book to have in your dog library is Every Dog's Legal Guide http://www.nolo.com/products/every-dogs-legal-guide-dog.html


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## Travis Ragin (Apr 10, 2010)

Christian Rio said:


> http://www.nolo.com/products/every-dogs-legal-guide-dog.html


From the descriptions and sample chapters, this book looks to be worth much more than the $16 they ask for. I just ordered a couple of copies. Thanks for the info.


t


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

re: "A CGC, CGCA and TT title on your dog and obedience titles are evidence that you are a responsible dog owner in the event your dog bites a person or another pet."

personally that statement sounds like one of the reasons you train a dog is to cover your (legal) ass ... i don't agree with that philosophy at all

if YOUR dog bit MY kid i don't care how many titles it may have gotten ... i'd still be in your face and up your butt and there would be hell to pay :-(
.... i might not even blame the dog at all 

if you allow your dog to bite a person or another dog, then YOU are the irresponsible party imnsho :-(

sorry, but that statement really rubbed me the wrong way 

those titles are fine ... go for em; i'm not saying they are a waste of time in any sense

- but as you can probably tell, i hate the CYA approach to most anything ... including dog training //lol//
-- to me, it's an easy way to duck responsibility and accountability

rant over


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## Catherine Gervin (Mar 12, 2012)

given the amount of ridiculousness that goes on in any given day of my animal handling, i am ever so indebted to this proffered giftie--i will ask my husband to buy this for me for Xmas and he'll be so happy it's that easy! plus, my dog has killed someone's Guinea Hen with no problem and has mauled an escaped goat, also without repercussions, but that guardian angel will not always be abiding, and things do happen....thanx ever so much for this!!!


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

but that also makes me chuckle since i just remembered the last dog i was out with that bit someone

it actually bit an old lady in the butt :-(
by other people's defs it was a "playful nip", since the dog knew the lady and had seen her a few times before, and only wanted to play

details...

she was the typical type who sees you walking by and extends their hand out to the dog while commenting on what a "nice looking dog" you have ...etc etc

(about a 50lb husky/shiba cross)

i had brought the dog to her a few times and she met it and gave it a (controlled) pet or two

i guess she thought they were "best friends" from that point on 

so i'm walking it up an alley and the lady comes up behind us to catch up to me and the dog. she's calling its name in an excited manner, etc

b4 i could react with some separation, the dog barks a few times and bites her in the ass :-(

- she's all surprised that the dog seems to want a piece of her 
- she wasn't scared .. just surprised
-- no harm no foul with the nip, but i still smacked the dog harshly in the flank :-(
-- she said it was OK, and i didn't need to smack the dog 

i tried to explain but gave up ... simply told her if she got a dog excited, she better be prepared to play hard with it 

she's a nice old lady and i still see her occasionally. we are friends but she never tries to make any gestures or approach a dog i'm with

- and i always apologize again for her butt nip 

anyway, regardless of how clueless she is, dog wise, that BITE was all my fault
- 100% "handler error" imo

i'm sure this happens all the time with other dog owners, and i'll bet some of those people blame either the dog or the other person 

btw, the dog eventually stopped that crap and became a pretty good pet


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## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

forgot to add

i don't redirect a dog with OB when it tries to pull that kind of stunt in public. glad i don't live in the UK //lol//


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Christian Rio said:


> I think it's wise to get your dog trained and be sociable around people. A CGC, CGCA and TT title on your dog and obedience titles are evidence that you are a responsible dog owner in the event your dog bites a person or another pet. An insurance company sees a dog biting a person or another pet as the same thing. A book to have in your dog library is Every Dog's Legal Guide http://www.nolo.com/products/every-dogs-legal-guide-dog.html


The only dog I hadn't been able to be 100% sociable around people and other dogs is my current and only GSD.

I don't need to have him tested. I don't need a test to have me certified as a responsible handler. If he bites another dog, it is my responsibility and I am insured. None of my dogs has bitten a human being. I politely tell passers by not to stroke him. Now that he is nearing 11 years' old he is becoming quite friendly with everyone but I still keep an eye on him.

He looks a bit like "Old Yeller" nowadays thank God.


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## Christian Rio (Jun 21, 2014)

rick smith said:


> re: "A CGC, CGCA and TT title on your dog and obedience titles are evidence that you are a responsible dog owner in the event your dog bites a person or another pet."
> 
> personally that statement sounds like one of the reasons you train a dog is to cover your (legal) ass ... i don't agree with that philosophy at all
> 
> ...


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## Christian Rio (Jun 21, 2014)

Gillian Schuler said:


> The only dog I hadn't been able to be 100% sociable around people and other dogs is my current and only GSD.
> 
> I don't need to have him tested. I don't need a test to have me certified as a responsible handler. If he bites another dog, it is my responsibility and I am insured. None of my dogs has bitten a human being. I politely tell passers by not to stroke him. Now that he is nearing 11 years' old he is becoming quite friendly with everyone but I still keep an eye on him.
> 
> He looks a bit like "Old Yeller" nowadays thank God.


You might want to make sure your insurance company will defend you in a dog bite lawsuit if it's your fault or not. Most insurance companies will try to weasel out of defending you in dog bite cases. You can also be sued if your dog bites another dog or a pet. Most professions require yearly training for people to dismiss, avoid, defend against lawsuits. You can be sued even if your dog was protecting you, your family or your property.


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## Christian Rio (Jun 21, 2014)

rick smith said:


> re: "A CGC, CGCA and TT title on your dog and obedience titles are evidence that you are a responsible dog owner in the event your dog bites a person or another pet."
> 
> personally that statement sounds like one of the reasons you train a dog is to cover your (legal) ass ... i don't agree with that philosophy at all
> 
> ...


We all do a form of CYA. We have auto, home, health insurance to CYA. I have umbrella coverage because I live in a lawsuit happy state. If you have never been sued in court then you don't have a clue how the process works and what is allowed and not allowed for a jury to hear and see. I have worked as a bailiff and have seen a few dog bite injury cases. Some were irresponsible owners and the others greedy "victims" looking for a payoff. What saved the case for the innocent dog owner was his dog had been obedience trained and had titles . His insurance company defended him because and he had trained his dogs and it was documented. If he had to defend that case it would have cost him about $50,000 or more.


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## Christian Rio (Jun 21, 2014)

Travis Ragin said:


> From the descriptions and sample chapters, this book looks to be worth much more than the $16 they ask for. I just ordered a couple of copies. Thanks for the info.
> 
> t


You are welcome and checkout this website http://dogbitelaw.com


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I would be curious if the book covered different States. 

That and different cities/communities can vary considerably in their dog bite laws.


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## Christian Rio (Jun 21, 2014)

Bob Scott said:


> I would be curious if the book covered different States.
> 
> That and different cities/communities can vary considerably in their dog bite laws.


You can find the book at most book stores or at your local library. If you library does not have it you can ask them to get it and most libraries will get it. Another option, it to call your local law library and the will have it under their self help law section.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

I personally have only put a cgc on 2 dogs.

both dogs were nutcases that were not only were they NOT social, they were anti-social, and I thought it was an easy piece of paper for tiny added piece of mind, for those particular dogs.

I've done lots of CGC tests as an evaluator..

I think overall its a good idea for lots of people and dogs... for a lot of different reasons. It is a minimal thing that is a stepping stone for owners to get involved at some level in actually attempting some sort of training and testing, as well as get to know their dogs better.



In my opinion, if you pass a cgc test with a dog that is expected to be on alert and not be overly friendly, and the dog IS a dog that is not very social by nature, training for and passing the CGC test will have almost no bearing on what the dog does in everyday life. If the training of the dog was done to be able to pass the test, and not a full blown attempt to overhaul whats in the dogs braincase...

meaning if your dog is an asshole, it will still be an asshole after passing the cgc test.


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

John Ly said:


> i know theres no way my dog would allow someone to pet his head or pick up his foot. that person would die.
> 
> he's fine around strangers.
> 
> ...


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## John Ly (Mar 26, 2014)

What kind of video you want to see? Someone petting my dog? 

The original question should have been reworded should a dog be able to pass without any training (on the temperment portions).


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## Christi Taylor (Feb 17, 2009)

You're welcome.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

John Ly said:


> do you think all shepherds should be able to pass the cgc test or depends on the dogs temperment?


I think most all shepherds should be able to pass the CGC test, if that is what is desired by their owners, and their owners are competent in their training and handling of their animals.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

John Ly said:


> What kind of video you want to see? Someone petting my dog?
> 
> The original question should have been reworded should a dog be able to pass without any training (on the temperment portions).


what parts of the test would you say are, and are not "temperament portions"?


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## John Ly (Mar 26, 2014)

Joby Becker said:


> what parts of the test would you say are, and are not "temperament portions"?


Anything obedience would not be temperment. Sit, down, heel etc


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## John Ly (Mar 26, 2014)

Things like touching ears and feet to me are temperment. Some dogs would let a stranger pick them up and carry them home. Others wouldn't let a stranger touch them. Depending on temperment


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

John Ly said:


> What kind of video you want to see? Someone petting my dog?
> 
> The original question should have been reworded should a dog be able to pass without any training (on the temperment portions).


Yes a video of your dog being pet would be interesting; do you have any videos at all of your dog doing anything anyplace posted? How old is the dog?


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## John Ly (Mar 26, 2014)

Chris McDonald said:


> Yes a video of your dog being pet would be interesting; do you have any videos at all of your dog doing anything anyplace posted? How old is the dog?


lol well unless you want to come pet the dog yourself then no i dont have any videos on someone petting my dog. not sure whats the point of videos but sure here you go. he's 19 months

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XHAEHrTzoRM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z0aXWGS1SHo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f6-wKHP-FX4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zdQG2LrTwEs


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Looks like you scared the kids out of the playground in second video. Good looking dog


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## Nick Hrycaj (Mar 30, 2014)

so you have videos of the dog doing bite work and your first post talks about dog running around off lead on hikes and near other people. legal concerns of bites aside can you think of no real world time (being in public especially) where your dog might need to tolerate strangers close by or reaching over head or brushing against his head? might it be worth setting one of the sport excersises up where the passive decoy hands you something or shakes hands and the dog is not allowed to "bite him to death." then reward bite for tolerance?

seems hard headed not to go for asking dog to be tolerant when you tell him to be


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## John Ly (Mar 26, 2014)

My dog has no problem with someone shaking my hand or doing cart wheels right next to him. What makes you think otherwise? 

The only thing I said was he doesn't like to have his head touched. Which I am fine with


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## Nick Hrycaj (Mar 30, 2014)

I see them as one in the same.

Your Dog obviously learned eating people who come shake your hand is not tolerated. You could easily demonstrate it would not be acceptable for him to bite after a touch on the head.

You have made yourself clear over and over that's not something you are interested in so there is no reason to waste my breath


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

I think every exercise in this test is an OB exercise, especially if the dogs temperament is an issue.


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