# Sound Like a Food Allergy?



## David Stucenski (Mar 29, 2008)

I had a four and half year old male Mal who is a police working dog. The first year I had him I never had a problem with his coat and he never smelled. For about the at least six months(as long as I have noticed it) anyways. He was eating Canidae. About 1 year ago I changed to Wellness CORE Ocean plus extra salmon oil. Now he stinks....and his coatseems real...aaa sticky the best way to describe it. He is itching to the point of losing some hair. right behind his front shoulders. Also it seemed to come to a head after being boarded. It to the point that he has discolored his chain that he wears. I have tried a bath since the vet said maybe he had a reaction to the disinfectant that the kennel uses. The bath helped for about 4-5 days then back to itchy/stinky dog. Wondering if I should go to a differnet food or give some more baths.....hard to do it now since the average temp is about 20 degrees. Thanks in advance for your thoughts.
Dave


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

I've been having the same problem with Deja. I think, after many months of monitoring her, she's sensitive to fish. I'm going to take her off of the salmon oil I've been giving them all, and keep her on a fish-free diet for a while and see if she clears up.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

David Stucenski said:


> I had a four and half year old male Mal who is a police working dog. The first year I had him I never had a problem with his coat and he never smelled. For about the at least six months(as long as I have noticed it) anyways. He was eating Canidae. About 1 year ago I changed to Wellness CORE Ocean plus extra salmon oil. Now he stinks....and his coatseems real...aaa sticky the best way to describe it. He is itching to the point of losing some hair. right behind his front shoulders. Also it seemed to come to a head after being boarded. It to the point that he has discolored his chain that he wears. I have tried a bath since the vet said maybe he had a reaction to the disinfectant that the kennel uses. The bath helped for about 4-5 days then back to itchy/stinky dog. Wondering if I should go to a differnet food or give some more baths.....hard to do it now since the average temp is about 20 degrees. Thanks in advance for your thoughts.
> Dave


If a bath improved it, I would be wondering about an environmental allergy first. Have you moved, changed cleaning chemicals, routines? New carpet? New bed? New kennel mats? 

Process of elimination is your best bet for finding the source.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Buko got like that, I would change back to cannidae, and if you need a little more go juice just get some fat from the butcher.

I feed pro plan or ONE, as it is easy to get, and I could give a **** about high speed food. I also skip a day of two during the week and do not feed them. 

I was getting fat from the supermarket, but they started going ballistic. Buko gets stinky here and there, but not itchy. I have seen the sticky coat thing you are talking about. Gross right ??


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

The thing is, Canidae is not the same food anymore, so there is no 'going back.' It would be like starting an entirely new food.


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## todd pavlus (Apr 30, 2008)

I would think if it is the food, it would have showed up ealier since you changed to the Core 1 year ago. Makes ya think it is something besides the food. Maybe cut out the salmon oil. Wellness does make other quality food though if you were to try something else


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## David Stucenski (Mar 29, 2008)

Anne Vaini said:


> If a bath improved it, I would be wondering about an environmental allergy first. Have you moved, changed cleaning chemicals, routines? New carpet? New bed? New kennel mats?
> 
> Process of elimination is your best bet for finding the source.


Nothing new on this side same cleaning or mats..I think this is what the vet thought because, it peaked (or when I noticed) was when he came home from the boarding kennel. I am only making a best guess on the food switch..could have been less than a year. This was the first time I used this kennel. Without starting a food war...I would like to know some reasonable priced food that the state might buy...Some of the ones used by the other guys are;
Euk performance
ProPlan Performance
Canidae
Science Diet
etc....You can kinda see the level we are at.

First easy step is stop the Salmon Oil I guess I will start there.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

David Stucenski said:


> Nothing new on this side same cleaning or mats..I think this is what the vet thought because, it peaked (or when I noticed) was when he came home from the boarding kennel.This was the first time I used this kennel. Without starting a food war...I would like to know some reasonable priced food that the state would buy...Some of the ones used by the other guys are;
> Euk performance
> ProPlan Performance
> Canidae
> ...



Did your dog's diet change at the boarding kennel? Were the staff allowed to give treats?

It may have gotten worse from stress.

Environmental allergies are more common than food allergies. I would look into that more. I remember hearing about a case where a couple went to great lengths on a dog's allergic reaction only to (finally) discover that the had become allergic to their carpeting. They removed the carpet. 

The "stickiness" is probably excess lanolin, and I'm not sure that it has anything to do with an allergy.


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## David Stucenski (Mar 29, 2008)

Anne Vaini said:


> Did your dog's diet change at the boarding kennel? Were the staff allowed to give treats?
> 
> It may have gotten worse from stress.
> 
> ...


The diet was the same at the kennel..on his "report card" they said by the end of the week they were able to give him treats through the fence. I asked for a grooming, but he was not having it\\/

The only other way I can describe the sticky is After agood pat/scratch your hands stink and they feel like they are coated with something.:?


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## Tina Rempel (Feb 13, 2008)

They were able to give treats through the fence? I would find out what treats. One of my girls is so sensitive to grains and rice that even the little itty bit of corn binder in a glucosomine tablet set her off itching and losing hair. I have to be very very careful with her, no treats if I don't supply them.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

David Stucenski said:


> Nothing new on this side same cleaning or mats..I think this is what the vet thought because, it peaked (or when I noticed) was when he came home from the boarding kennel. I am only making a best guess on the food switch..could have been less than a year. This was the first time I used this kennel. Without starting a food war...I would like to know some reasonable priced food that the state might buy...Some of the ones used by the other guys are;
> Euk performance
> ProPlan Performance
> Canidae
> ...


I always liked when the K9 was boarded at the kennel I worked at. open the kennel door, holler "Platz!" and he'd down and shut up. The whole kennel was silent for the rest of the day. :lol: But he's also a baby when he is off-duty.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

My older husky/Rottweiler guy gets like that, with the seborrhea (greasy coat and skin) and flakes. He's mildly allergic to a few things in the environment, so it could be a cumulative effect. Interestingly, it seemed to get better switching off raw and I'm not real sure why... :-k The veterinary dermatologist at the teaching hospital recommended trying this new kind of shampoo (I normally don't bathe the dogs but once or twice a year max, so they aren't overly dry) and emulsion spray specially for it called Duoxo that worked surprisingly well. Basically, you bathe them every other day for like 10 days and then do the microemulsion spray every other day for 10 days. I'm not real big on shampoos and dips, but it really seemed to do the trick:

http://www.sogevalus.com/derm_phyto.html

Here's some other questions...when and what do you use for flea/tick/heartworm preventative?
Has he had (multiple) skin scrapings done for mites? I say multiple because the darn little mites can be very hard to get on a single scrape, so they frequently can get false negatives. You may want to try to do an intradermal skin test if you don't get things ruled out or in, but definitely don't do the blood antigen food allergy test as it's not reliable (AKA: waste of money).


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## David Stucenski (Mar 29, 2008)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> My older husky/Rottweiler guy gets like that, with the seborrhea (greasy coat and skin) and flakes. He's mildly allergic to a few things in the environment, so it could be a cumulative effect. Interestingly, it seemed to get better switching off raw and I'm not real sure why... :-k The veterinary dermatologist at the teaching hospital recommended trying this new kind of shampoo (I normally don't bathe the dogs but once or twice a year max, so they aren't overly dry) and emulsion spray specially for it called Duoxo that worked surprisingly well. Basically, you bathe them every other day for like 10 days and then do the microemulsion spray every other day for 10 days. I'm not real big on shampoos and dips, but it really seemed to do the trick:
> 
> http://www.sogevalus.com/derm_phyto.html
> 
> ...


Heartworm = Heartguard chewable........WAIT...... I think I switched to Vectra 3D :-s from Frontline before he hit the kennel.....But he has not had it for almost two months now. Could the side effects still be lingering after at least one bath since. Like I said it has been almost two months since last treatment[-o< I think the November 1st treatment was the last one.

Heading to the vet tomorrow stand by...........


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Just a couple of quick and important points:

Most dog allergies are not food allergies. Flea hypersensitivity is #1, then inhalant/environmental. Food trails far behind. (I do think that food is a huge immune-system factor, and allergies are an immune response.)

Greasy (or waxy) or odorous skin can be a yeast overgrowth sign, too.


I want to add that IME, most GP vets are not particularly up on derm issues. Like many others here and on other boards, I learned this the hard (and expensive) way. Now my first suggestion is almost always to see a derm vet. It may sound over-the-top, but you can eliminate a loooong and frustrating and increasingly-miserable (for the dog) path. The specialty is a specialty for good reason.

Over the years, I have never run into a GP vet who had as much knowledge of canine derm issues as Maren, which bodes well for the future of vet medicine, but not so great for trying to deal with derm issues today without a derm vet.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> .... definitely don't do the blood antigen food allergy test as it's not reliable (AKA: waste of money).


True, and to prove my point about seeking a derm vet, the blood tests are often "the big guns" when you seek allergy help from a GP vet. :lol:

At least, this is my experience and what I have read in frustrated posts by owners of dogs with atopic dermatitis, etc.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

David Stucenski said:


> Heartworm = Heartguard chewable........WAIT...... I think I switched to Vectra 3D :-s from Frontline before he hit the kennel.....But he has not had it for almost two months now. Could the side effects still be lingering after at least one bath since. Like I said it has been almost two months since last treatment[-o< I think the November 1st treatment was the last one.
> 
> Heading to the vet tomorrow stand by...........


Dogs allergic to beef have to come off of Heartgard as that's what makes it tasty, but it can be an allergen if your dog is sensitive to it. If you want to try to do a food allergy test, you'll need to temporarily take them off all supplements and oral heartworm meds like Heartgard until the conclusion of the test. Any kind of supplement that you give for joints, coat, etc also needs to be read carefully and call the company if you have questions about what kind of flavoring or binders are used. Ask your vet about switching heartworm/flea/tick preventative to maybe something like Revolution or Advantage Plus and see if that helps, as they use slightly different meds. The Revolution also can treat for mites (even those who evade multiple skin scrapings), just ask your vet what the protocol for that is. 

Connie, we get a fair bit of dermatology and we've had lectures on how to be very judicious with corticosteroids (use them sparingly and locally when possible instead of systemically), where as some of your old school docs will give them for everything under the sun since it makes the animal feel better (which makes the owner feel better), even if the source of the itching isn't always resolved and since systemic dosing may be harmful down the line. Many don't consider dermatology a real sexy specialty or area of interest either, so the continuing education for derm may not be the most popular thing at the meetings and conferences. Same thing probably for nutrition (in both humans and animals) as why pay to sit through lectures on flaky skin and calcium/phosphorus/potassium/sodium balance when you can hear about the latest and greatest surgical technique or stem cell therapy or molecular marker tests for genetic disease.

You bring up a good point about the general practitioner vet. Just like with general practitioner physicians, they are not expected to know every detail about every specialty. GP vets actually in many ways have way more to be familiar with than GP physicians really ever have to think about much (radiology, surgery, emergency/critical care, etc), so the good ones don't mind referring. I think some of the old school docs also think it is a matter of pride that they don't think they need to refer, when they really should.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> ... Connie, we get a fair bit of dermatology and we've had lectures on how to be very judicious with corticosteroids (use them sparingly and locally when possible instead of systemically), where as some of your old school docs will give them for everything under the sun since it makes the animal feel better (which makes the owner feel better), even if the source of the itching isn't always resolved and since systemic dosing may be harmful down the line. Many don't consider dermatology a real sexy specialty or area of interest either, so the continuing education for derm may not be the most popular thing at the meetings and conferences. Same thing probably for nutrition (in both humans and animals) as why pay to sit through lectures on flaky skin and calcium/phosphorus/potassium/sodium balance when you can hear about the latest and greatest surgical technique or stem cell therapy or molecular marker tests for genetic disease. ... You bring up a good point about the general practitioner vet. Just like with general practitioner physicians, they are not expected to know every detail about every specialty. GP vets actually in many ways have way more to be familiar with than GP physicians really ever have to think about much (radiology, surgery, emergency/critical care, etc), so the good ones don't mind referring. I think some of the old school docs also think it is a matter of pride that they don't think they need to refer, when they really should.


'Zackly. GP vets have so much more to be familiar with than a specialty vet that yes, referring should (ideally) be one the GP vet's strong suits. In fact, this would be (ideally) what I would want to rely on in my GP vet: the ability and sensibilities to know when to refer.

With such a GP vet (a great asset, IMO), I would never see referring as "Oh great; now I have two vet visits to pay for." I would see it as exactly what I want: my animals' primary medical professional, who knows their entire histories and what is and is not normal for them, deciding when they need more specialized medical help. Which she would then be informed about by me and which would be added to their files with her. :smile:


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## David Stucenski (Mar 29, 2008)

Well the story continues:sad: Just got back from the vet and my boy lost 11lbs from a year ago and he is eating 5cups of Wellness CORE a day. They took blood, stools, urine...results tomorrow8-[ 8-[ 8-[ . Hoping its something as minor as worms..etc.

Thanks for all the info...that is why I love this board..now a sleepless night8-[ 8-[


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

David Stucenski said:


> Well the story continues:sad: Just got back from the vet and my boy lost 11lbs from a year ago ....


So then ... much more than a skin problem. 

Any tentative ideas from the vet?

Did you realize he was losing weight?


P.S. Please post back when you have results.


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## David Stucenski (Mar 29, 2008)

She did not give me any tentative ideas:evil: ..I thought as with the other handlers in my unit, that he looked a little thin....His energy was good and ate like a mad man. I thought it was just I am cold and using up calories..I had upped his food a 1/2 to 3/4cup a day and brought him into a crate inside when not working to no avail. I could not believe my eyes when he got on the scale.:-o 11lbs is a ton of weight on a 75lb dog. He went from 77lbs to 66lbs. I liked him between 72-75.

I will post when I get results!!


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

How is the stool quality/quantity? What does he typically do when he's out in the kennel? Is he pretty quiet or is he always being busy?


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## David Stucenski (Mar 29, 2008)

Well, lately due to cold he has mostly been in the crate in the house or in the cruiser working. Work volume at work is down also for the winter..not alot of calls. So the overall activity level is down except training days. If anything I thought he would be gaining weight.:-k His stools are nice and firm and seem to be right amount. well at least I am working all night so all I get to do is think about it...............Yea


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## David Stucenski (Mar 29, 2008)

Ok need some help:? .........all blood, stools, urine test came back normal, but he has lost 11lbs. I am going to slowly increase his food intake and maybe add some raw to his grain free (Wellness CORE) kibble. Any food supplements I should add??????? He already is getting Salmon Oil.


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## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

All my dogs did great on Wellness for years. Then I got a malinois. At 8-9 months he was up to 6 cups a day and he was still thin. This was the regular Wellness, not sure how it compares to the grain free.

My labx is sensitive to chicken. Makes him chew his feet, his chin breaks out, so I feed fish. Is there a reason you feed fish?

I found Evo and went with the red meat formula. High protein seems to work for my mal for keeping his weight up without feeding a ton of food. When I found Orijen (Canadian made and slightly cheaper than Evo) I switched to that. Seems to work for him.

Some dogs do fine on any food, some dogs need a bit more to be at their best. You may have to try a few.


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## Emilio Rodriguez (Jan 16, 2009)

David, The condition worsening when you board the dog is not surprising. Dogs undergo stress in various degrees when removed from their normal environment. This has the effect of weakening their system and making more pronounced the symptoms of an underlying problem. It's definitely time to change foods and also take a look at your vaccination protocol. Are you doing yearly boosters? Yearly Rabies? I can't recommend to you another dog food because I feed raw. If you can feed raw. It may take some time for the dog to balance out but it will. Feeding raw is easy. As easy as throwing the dog a quarter chicken. Of course variety is necessary but it works the same way.

I also find that oil in the diet is almost immediately apparent on the dog's coat. It becomes shiny. If in your case its so oily that it is sticky you may want to think about eliminating the salmon oil for a while and seeing what happens.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Emilio Rodriguez said:


> As easy as throwing the dog a quarter chicken.


It's easy, but not THAT easy! It's better to feed kibble that raw done wrong.

Can you post photos of your dog's body condtion. To me, a dog loosing from 75 to 66 over a year isn't a big deal if bloodwork and testing are normal. That's 12% change in weight. 

My dogs have a 19 - 23% weight loss during the training seasons - down to Purina body scale 2-3. They look gorgeous then.

But if your dog started out about thin and trim, then it's cause for concern! Can you tell if weight lost is muscle lost? 

I would weight him regularly - weekly on the same scale and keep a chart. There may not be a real problem here - the only way to know is to keep track of it closely.

If you start making to many changes at once, you won't be able to sort out what solves the problem.

I would start with bathing to relieve itching - prevent your dog from causing additional damage by scratching.

Then eliminate all rewards feeding and supplements. Go to ssinply the food an nothing else. If you see improvement, you can reason that the food is fine, but the supplements are not. No improvements and you can give the supplements again as it shows they aren't the problem.

Systematically eliminate possible causes of this problem to find what the problem IS.

Is your dog on Frontline? 
Did you have skin scrapings done?


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## David Stucenski (Mar 29, 2008)

Well the vets suggestion is to try a food increase to see if we can put on some weight. The itching seems to be getting better...Dont figure#-o #-o We did enter a very dry time of here here. I am adding a small third meal with one raw patty from Nature's Variety with a little kibble in the middle of the day. I have a follow up vet appointment in a couple of weeks. It is the State Police Policy to get ALL of the required shots. Even though we could save so much...I know its state law to have rabies. 
We also use topical flea products. 

The only thing the vet said all test showed a little dehydration. I am sure its from all the frozen water buckets in the kennel..so I have bought a heated bucket for the rest ofthe winter. Even though he always had fresh water in the cruiser.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

David Stucenski said:


> Ok need some help:? .........all blood, stools, urine test came back normal, but he has lost 11lbs. I am going to slowly increase his food intake and maybe add some raw to his grain free (Wellness CORE) kibble. Any food supplements I should add??????? He already is getting Salmon Oil.


David, you can try adding EVO canned venison. It's the most calorie dense food that Natura makes and can be used as a weight gain/recovery/cancer diet for those who don't want to do a home prepared diet or to where a raw diet would be inappropriate (i.e.-immune compromised individuals).

Would they allow you to do the vaccinations at least 2-4 weeks apart? I have two certified therapy dogs now and both must be UTD on all vaccinations, so that's my preference if they must be done.


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## David Stucenski (Mar 29, 2008)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> David, you can try adding EVO canned venison. It's the most calorie dense food that Natura makes and can be used as a weight gain/recovery/cancer diet for those who don't want to do a home prepared diet or to where a raw diet would be inappropriate (i.e.-immune compromised individuals).
> 
> Would they allow you to do the vaccinations at least 2-4 weeks apart? I have two certified therapy dogs now and both must be UTD on all vaccinations, so that's my preference if they must be done.


The vet does do the vaccinations spread out. Friday was Rabies, and Lepto. On the 27th is the rest of them. The State will never spring for EVO=; so I got some IAMS Ground Savory Dinner with Tender Chicken and Rice canned food. Adding that to the kibble only meals 2x day. Third meal in middle is the RAW Patty. Will try that until the 27th vet appointment and see if we can get some weight back on.
I got copies of the blood work. Under the Hematology Section I only see three things out of range and have no idea what they are.


HCT = 68.3% Normal Range (37.0-55.0)
RBC = 9.8M/uL Normal Range (5.50-8.50)
HGB = 18.7g/dL Normal Range (12.0-18.0)

Everything else in in the "NORMAL" range. Its too long to put in here but if has any specific thoughts I will post them.

If EVO is that good I will spring for at least one or two cases to get him back on track.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

Some of the topical flea producst are absorbed into the sebaceous glands, and a secreted over the course of a month, coating each hair. If your dog has reaction to one of these products, the reaction will stick around for a while...


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

You can also try the EVO kibble too. I've used that to put weight (muscle too, not just fat) several underweight to severely underweight foster dogs and they look excellent.

Ask the vet what kind of lepto vaccine they use. There is a newer one out there that has the 4 major serovars for leptospira that is less likely to cause reaction (the older one caused more reaction and was only protective for 2 of the 4). I think Fort Dodge makes it.


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