# Eeeeks!



## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

You have just sent your PPD or PSD out for a long bite or courage test and then it doesn't engage the helper. It's like there is a magic wave of energy that keeps it from connecting. What now....:-k
(BTW I don't have this problem)


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Then why are you asking?

C'mon Howie, - give!


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Gillian Schuler said:


> Then why are you asking?
> 
> C'mon Howie, - give!


Just want to pick the brains of The Great Masters, like you Gillian. 

I'm writing a book and I'm too lazy to explore the endless K-9 issues.
I forgot how to pick on Bob.
The weather sucks and I have nothing else to do.
It's 2 hours before I eat and want reading material for the table.
Missed anything G?
:mrgreen:


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Dont't be daft Howad, I'm not a great master, anything but! I try, though!


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Howard Gaines III said:


> You have just sent your PPD or PSD out for a long bite or courage test and then it doesn't engage the helper. It's like there is a magic wave of energy that keeps it from connecting. What now....:-k
> (BTW I don't have this problem)


The Dobermann is the only dog bred as a personal protection dog.
Asking one to run down the field to bite someone, far away from the person they are supposed to protect, sometimes takes a little
more training then the average dog


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## Donna DeYoung (Jan 29, 2010)

sell it as a pet dog?


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## jack van strien (Apr 9, 2009)

In Holland we sell dogs like that to the USA,for a lot of money.lol.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Howard Gaines III said:


> You have just sent your PPD or PSD out for a long bite or courage test and then it doesn't engage the helper. It's like there is a magic wave of energy that keeps it from connecting. What now....:-k
> (BTW I don't have this problem)


Purely from a PSD perspective, I would have some serious concerns.

1. Do I really want to keep this dog.

2. What didn't I see in training that allowed this to happen.

3. What didn't I see during the selection/evaluation of this dog that allowed me to enter it into training. 

I've been a dog trainer too long to believe in too many: "that's never happened before" alibies.

DFrost


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## Margaret Wheeler (May 29, 2010)

jack van strien said:


> In Holland we sell dogs like that to the USA,for a lot of money.lol.


 
So if I want such a dog I should look in Holland or just at your lines, Jack?:wink:


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Several years ago, I had the "chance" to buy a GSD from a police department with that issue, it would go out and not engage the bad guy. It was made and trained in China.

Just messing Gillian...feel the love!


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## Wawashkashi Tashi (Aug 25, 2009)

jack van strien said:


> In Holland we sell dogs like that to the USA,for a lot of money.lol.


LMAO!! That's probably about it too! :lol:


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## Howard Knauf (May 10, 2008)

You mean there's disreputable vendors in Holland?


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

With a few exceptions I have yet to see a dog worth **** come from a "holland" vendor. LOL I saw the crap that they sold to energi dogs.

I figure that just about all of them breed a bitch until her uterus is dragging behind, and keep the one or two that don't suck balls. You could have grabbed a few dogs from the shelters here and had better dogs than that. It was funny as hell. Most of them don't work for shit. The few that did bit with the front of their mouth on a ****ing tug. 

I really liked the famous dogs prodigy. What a great deal, the pup is 4, 5, 6, months old and looks like a complete and utter shitter. More than half were complete shitters. 

Sadly, most of what comes out of Mexico from French lines are pretty good, and a few just ****ing rock. I think they have to be pretty sturdy, as the breeders don't feed them much and disease is rampant down there. Just filthy people. But there they are, rocking the Dutch.

Lets face it, we see Dick making a good effort to breed correctly, and he is nice enough to sell to us idiot Americans, but I see the rest of them selling us trash. 

Look at the rocking washout rate from lackland. THAT is where PD's should go and get dogs from. ****ING FREE. I have seen two washouts that sorta work, looks like no one did shit with them in bitework. I think they did not do the drug detection thing on schedule. Plus those guys are not really that great at training dogs. It is a skate job, and they are pogues. Every grunt knows what pogues do. LOL

Howard, so the dog ran from the decoy. My guess is that the dog was either A) Not cut out for the work. OR B) hurried in training.


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## jack van strien (Apr 9, 2009)

Howard,my comment was meant as a joke but some people seem to take it serious.I do not think it has anything to do with dishonourable dog brokers but a lot of times dogs that come up short for the KNPV program are being sold as possible detection dogs all over the world.
A dog that can not do one program or does not live up to the standard of one trainer can be totally suitable to another program.
And Jeff,well.........


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Howard Gaines III said:


> You have just sent your PPD or PSD out for a long bite or courage test and then it doesn't engage the helper. It's like there is a magic wave of energy that keeps it from connecting. What now....:-k
> (BTW I don't have this problem)


In Schutzhund its done start looking for another dog. The dog now knows it has the option to bail and when pushed it will happen again.
I imagine it's the same for PSD or at least it should be.
PPD who knows keep the dog on a line most seem to bite good is there some sort of a standard or requirement for ppd


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## Matthew Grubb (Nov 16, 2007)

david frost said:


> 1. Do i really want to keep this dog.dfrost


 

bingo!!


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Mike Scheiber said:


> In Schutzhund its done start looking for another dog. The dog now knows it has the option to bail and when pushed it will happen again.
> I imagine it's the same for PSD or at least it should be.
> PPD who knows keep the dog on a line most seem to bite good is there some sort of a standard or requirement for ppd



I think you could take a dog like that and "fix" him if you had the right helper. The kind of helper that would chase the dog down and corner him until he bit. Half the time, it's not the helper nor is it really the dog, it's the handler that broke him. Pressure from the helper, pressure from the handler and the dog just shuts down. I think it's mostly a training issue, I've seen some very nice dogs fall apart because it wasn't properly progressed and was never taught to deal with pressure. 

Pressure = bite

I'm speaking of schH. I would never trust that dog on the street. (not that I have real working dog experience anyway)


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: The kind of helper that would chase the dog down and corner him until he bit. Half the time, it's not the helper nor is it really the dog, it's the handler that broke him.

Who taught you this ?? That is some retarded shit. You chase a dog into a corner you are causing more problems.


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## Chris Michalek (Feb 13, 2008)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: The kind of helper that would chase the dog down and corner him until he bit. Half the time, it's not the helper nor is it really the dog, it's the handler that broke him.
> 
> Who taught you this ?? That is some retarded shit. You chase a dog into a corner you are causing more problems.


Howard Gaines III why?


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> ...Howard, so the dog ran from the decoy. My guess is that the dog was either A) Not cut out for the work. OR B) hurried in training.


oehlsen...the dog ran from the bad guy as it was sent to contain in LE work. When a former friend and I tested the dog, it NEVER had it and tested not as a PSD should. Just goes to show how many times folks with money get the trash. My male Bouvier cames from The Netherlands by way of Belgium, the broker is someone I trust and would continue to use.

My dad use to say, "Act in haste and repent in leasure." I still hear his words today when I make any business or educational choices!!!!\\/


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Chris Michalek said:


> Howard Gaines III why?


 CHRIS THIS ISN'T ME>>>
Too many bar drinks dude. I don't chase any dog to make them work. Go back the the first post and reprocess.....................


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## Butch Cappel (Aug 12, 2007)

The answer (if there is one) seems to hinge on the expectations of the dog and the time of the owner and trainer. Here's your situations I think.

I earn a living training dogs, only training, so if an owner comes to me with this dog and says "I want this dog to go 'over the river and through the woods, to grandmothers house' to bite the bad guy" Start measuring this dog for waders, cause he's going through some water. I work on the belief that more than one meal a day is nice, and to get paid in this business the human should be smarter than the dog.

If however, you are a person trying to compete in a sport, and you have limited time, or limited patience, you might take the quick and get another Dutch dog from Jack. 

The same would apply to an officer on the street, or a security company fixing to work a big labor strike. You have to do what makes the most of your time and investment.

Now is this dogs problem the dog or the trainer? Again the way I have seen it, dogs can only do what we show them we want them to do. If the dog isn't doing something we want, WE have not shown the dog what we want, Period! dogs will do, if the human is smarter than the dog in communicating what is wanted.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Oehlsen 
Quote: The kind of helper that would chase the dog down and corner him until he bit. Half the time, it's not the helper nor is it really the dog, it's the handler that broke him.

Who taught you this ?? That is some retarded shit. You chase a dog into a corner you are causing more problems.

Howard Gaines III why?

That crazy gaines. He has all kinds of wacky stuff going on.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Howard Gaines III said:


> ...the dog ran from the bad guy as it was sent to contain in LE work. When a former friend and I tested the dog, it NEVER had it and tested not as a PSD should. !\\/


Why did LE have it then. Did they not have a trainer that knew what was what? What department was this. Was the dog "retired" as it sounds it should have been? I just can't understand if a dog was tested and NEVER had it, why did an LE department buy it?

dFrost


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Butch Cappel said:


> The answer (if there is one) seems to hinge on the expectations of the dog and the time of the owner and trainer.
> Now is this dogs problem the dog or the trainer? .


From an LE perspective, if the dog was tested and didn't have it as stated earlier in the discussion, it's the trainers for fault for procuring the dog. I don't see anyone else being at fault. 

DFrost


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Chris Michalek said:


> I think you could take a dog like that and "fix" him if you had the right helper. The kind of helper that would chase the dog down and corner him until he bit. Half the time, it's not the helper nor is it really the dog, it's the handler that broke him. Pressure from the helper, pressure from the handler and the dog just shuts down. I think it's mostly a training issue, I've seen some very nice dogs fall apart because it wasn't properly progressed and was never taught to deal with pressure.
> 
> Pressure = bite
> 
> I'm speaking of schH. I would never trust that dog on the street. (not that I have real working dog experience anyway)


Why "fix" a dog that fragile its abusive to the animal it's not worth the trouble or the embarrassment to a club or the handler and the sport, it just puts another title on a shitter, this is a example why I have to force my self to go to club trials.
Don't get me wrong we have babied some dogs along but every dog that's been titled in our club with the exception of one has trialed on non club field at some point in there careers. This doesn't mean they are or have been trained to national level prolly 1/2 could show at regional level.


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## jack van strien (Apr 9, 2009)

To go back to Howards original question,if you send your dog on a long bite or a courage test,these are two totally different things to start with.
If you are a trainer and you see this happen and you are surprised,you do not know your own dog very well.
Sending a dog on a long bite in training you better make sure the build up is right and the decoy is inviting the dog to bite and you do not do this with strange decoys or strange fields.
If the dog would show signs of intimadation the decoy then would make sure it will be an easy bite and you start worrying about if he is a keeper or not.
Imo no trainer would hold on to a dog until he is being chased.If you are worried everytime he is going to be chased then you do not have the right dog,Imo if the dog is being chased in training it is normally spoken the trainers fault.
If it is a courage test however things are totally different.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

There are breeders here breeding dogs that have been chased.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

jack van strien said:


> To go back to Howards original question,if you send your dog on a long bite or a courage test,these are two totally different things to start with.
> If you are a trainer and you see this happen and you are surprised,you do not know your own dog very well.
> Sending a dog on a long bite in training you better make sure the build up is right and the decoy is inviting the dog to bite and you do not do this with strange decoys or strange fields.
> If the dog would show signs of intimadation the decoy then would make sure it will be an easy bite and you start worrying about if he is a keeper or not.
> ...


 Jack again the dog wasn't mine and mine will do the CT and LB without issue...


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## Michelle Reusser (Mar 29, 2008)

Howard Gaines III said:


> You have just sent your PPD or PSD out for a long bite or courage test and then it doesn't engage the helper. It's like there is a magic wave of energy that keeps it from connecting. What now....:-k


 
Shoot it, not worth the food you buy it. At minimum, have it spayed/neutered and placed in a "pet home", just make for damn sure it is out of the gene pool. 

I don't want a dog that needs to be "fixed" not in this instance especially.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Michelle Kehoe said:


> Shoot it, not worth the food you buy it. At minimum, have it spayed/neutered and placed in a "pet home", just make for damn sure it is out of the gene pool.
> 
> I don't want a dog that needs to be "fixed" not in this instance especially.


Keep him in the crate for a few months 
ok I'm done.....


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