# Dog that Paws



## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

Thoughts on dogs that paws the helper. Example during the escape, raps paws around helpers leg while on the sleeve. I know most helper don't like it, why?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Dog is wrapping him up to try to control him using "his hooks" to stop him from running away. To me, in general, I really like to see dogs that do this in bite-work, it shows a higher degree of fighting and dominance, in my opinion. 

I cannot speak about SCH, but I would like to know as well, why it is frowned upon, maybe it is not "calm" enough, or something....


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## Timothy Saunders (Mar 12, 2009)

helpers don't like it because they don't look as good carrying the dog all over the place. the dog is supposed to try to stop the decoy from getting away


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Timothy Saunders said:


> helpers don't like it because they don't look as good carrying the dog all over the place. the dog is supposed to try to stop the decoy from getting away


I would think a leg wrapping dog is doing almost all he can to stop the helper from getting away...


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## Jeff Batiste (Nov 10, 2009)

Not sure for other Helpers reasons but to me it has nothing to do with how I look, it's about displaying the dogs grip. 

1) When the dogs paws are resting on me it makes it more difficult to show how strong the dogs grip is
2) Also transitioning into the lock up is more difficult, which may put you in an awkward position for the re-attack, again if you don't do it correctly you may put the dog in a position to get a shitty grip and not get evaluated fairly.
3) Even in training I don't like to the dog learn to rest his paws on the helper,when they do this they are learning to use their paws to create leverage to win, and not developing it's grip.
By keeping the feet off the helper when he makes a grip you force the dog to only use his grip and learn that he has to bite and hold his grip to win.

Now if you've got one of those really good dogs that naturally have full, hard grips and won't let go regardless of distractions; they can use their paws all they want to ! For me I'd rather play it safe than sorry and keep their paws off the helper.


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## Tamara Champagne (Jan 20, 2009)

Jeff, 

Thanks for the explanation - many helpers that I have talked to about this basically just say they don't like the dogs feet up on them 

I'm curious what you would do with a dog who naturally wants to put their feet up on the helper and/or wrap their legs? What do you do to keep the dogs feet off the helper, and have you noticed that any of this affects grips in a negative way ie: creating stress with the dog?


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## Timothy Saunders (Mar 12, 2009)

Jeff Batiste said:


> Not sure for other Helpers reasons but to me it has nothing to do with how I look, it's about displaying the dogs grip.
> 
> 1) When the dogs paws are resting on me it makes it more difficult to show how strong the dogs grip is
> 2) Also transitioning into the lock up is more difficult, which may put you in an awkward position for the re-attack, again if you don't do it correctly you may put the dog in a position to get a shitty grip and not get evaluated fairly.
> ...


Question. I see a lot of dogs with full grips but the decoy is carrying them like a purse:razz: . doesn't the dog show more by stopping the decoy than the full fake grip. Also isn't the decoys responsibility to make sure he gets the sleeve and the lock up right. I would want my dog to give you as much trouble as possible. I would like the leg grab to put you on the ground. jmho


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## andreas broqvist (Jun 2, 2009)

I think its bad becaus you can break the dogs leg. 
When you run and drive the dog, If his legs gets betwen your you can put a hel of a loot of force on ther fron legs.


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## Jeff Batiste (Nov 10, 2009)

First off guys let me say there are alot more experienced helpers out there than I am I'm just gving my opinion as a Helper/Trainer. 

Tamara- In a trial the only thing you can do is to have enough speed to make the dog launch to make a grip you, once he makes the grip lock the sleeve in and run in a powerful manner, like a running back through traffic. The helpers momentum can usaully keep the dog from locking his legs up, given the helper is strong enough. But sometime with larger shepherds, or alternate breeds Rotties, Corso even Dutchies etc, that are genetically programed to bite and drag down their prey it's just tough work on the helper :smile:. In training I just knock the feet off me with the padded stick or adjust my body so they can't place them on me it depends on the bite... On re-attack/drives once they make the grip I lock the sleeve into my body with the dog in the pocket and he goes where I drive.. 

Timothy- Its absolutely the helpers job to get the lock up correct I was just stating why I don't care for their feet on me. As far as the the dog giving the helper as much trouble as possible, again I agree but what about when you have a dog with weak grips that works with their feet on the decoy it may look impressive to tangle the decoy up but the grips are still weak. 

I think it's a preference of what you as the handler/trainer like, there are high level trainers that train their dogs to do this, their choice but they have access to and get some tof the best dogs in the world those dogs start off with hard, full powerful grips and they are truly trying to separate themselves from top competitors by stopping the decoy faster than their competition. 

Again, I'm sure there are much more experienced helpers on the board so they can chime in and give their opinions.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

I talked to my decoy today about it...

I asked him about "leg wrapping" only.... not about putting feet ON the decoy (as in using paws to push off the man), so kind of incomplete answer here, only covers strong dominant leg wrapping behavior...

he did say that it does take away most of the force that is put onto the dog to encourage keeping the grip, and some dogs will adjust their grip while wrapping, he said this is the most common reason that is discouraged in training..

He also said that as a trial decoy he personally really likes and respects the stronger dogs that do this...even though they make the job more difficult, just like dogs that fight to get "out of the pocket" on the drives...

he also said that he thinks the real reason that most "decoys" discourage this or do not like dogs doing this even if it does not effect their grips is because he thinks many helpers have trouble working dogs like these, and it makes them (the decoys) look bad.


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## Frank Hutto (Dec 12, 2007)

I wouldn't call myself an expert but here's my $.02. I agree with what Jeff's stated. It can present an impressive picture, but some baggage can also come with it too depending on the dog. I recently got back into the helper world with a club and one of the dogs I'm working there really likes to use his feet alot...for everything. I really like the fact that this dog is trying to dominate me & do everything he can to fight me & stop me, but.....his grip power has suffered some. He bites full, but the feet are definitely being used for leverage; when I "clean him up" you feel the grip crunch down much better. However, the main issue the paws are causing for this dog is he's learned to continuely reset his grip as a way to fight back and with paws on the decoy he can do this all day long. Best I can tell is this behavior is a product of his past/foundation training, not a nerve issue (fortunately), and appears to be adjustable. So I do like the intent the dog has as he resets, but, like it or not, that behavior isn't going to get you the most points in Schutzhund. On the flip side I've seen dogs that wrap you up that have a very, strong grip without any unnecessary regripping (that is impressive IMO). So IMO whether this behavior is acceptable or not is going to be on a dog by dog basis.


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## Shane Woodlief (Sep 9, 2009)

Just a thought/question. 

Doesn't this have a lot to do with points? 

In Sch dogs are judged for the *"appearance*" of a full grip and quick, clean outs. If the dog is fighting the helper (actively) trying to stop the helper it will actually cost him points because the outs are not as quick and clean. Judges only care about the *"appearance"* of a full hard grip. In some trials it seems that dogs with the "appearance" of a hard grip that go along for the ride (like a piece of luggage) actually score higher than a dog that actively fights the helper. 

Am I out in left field thinking this?


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## Jeff Batiste (Nov 10, 2009)

Shane I think you explained it better than I did, at the end of the day its all about displaying the grips. To your point all a judge can evaluate is the appearance, the judges may ask a helper how was the grip but more often than not, they judge what they see.


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

Thanks everyone for the replies. My dog wraps the helper quite a bit, too much at times. It came to mind because we had a new helper at our club and my dog wrapped him good, ripped his shirt and scratched him pretty good. He seemed pretty pissed, the next time my dog did it he got all "get the f*uck off me" and wacked his legs with the stick. My dog didn't seem to care, I just smiled at him. The TD later told me as a helper he didn't like it, but as a handler he did. My dog grips are strong and full, but he does excessive regrips at times.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Edward Egan said:


> Thanks everyone for the replies. My dog wraps the helper quite a bit, too much at times. It came to mind because we had a new helper at our club and my dog wrapped him good, ripped his shirt and scratched him pretty good. He seemed pretty pissed, the next time my dog did it he got all "get the f*uck off me" and wacked his legs with the stick. My dog didn't seem to care, I just smiled at him. The TD later told me as a helper he didn't like it, but as a handler he did. My dog grips are strong and full, but he does excessive regrips at times.


Tuff to regrip if the feet ain't on the helper feet off teaches better get a mouth full and hold on tight. Someone else said this I think any way this is what you want especially if the dog has movement on the bite.


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## Keith Jenkins (Jun 6, 2007)

Edward Egan said:


> Thanks everyone for the replies. My dog wraps the helper quite a bit, too much at times. It came to mind because we had a new helper at our club and my dog wrapped him good, ripped his shirt and scratched him pretty good. He seemed pretty pissed, the next time my dog did it he got all "get the f*uck off me" and wacked his legs with the stick. My dog didn't seem to care, I just smiled at him. The TD later told me as a helper he didn't like it, but as a handler he did. My dog grips are strong and full, but he does excessive regrips at times.


When that happens I usually tell the handler they make a neat thing called nail clippers they sell at pet stores then I procede to put on my scratch jacket and that problem is solved. 

Sorry I missed you on Sunday at the club.


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## Frank Phillips (Jan 8, 2008)

Shane Woodlief said:


> Just a thought/question.
> 
> Doesn't this have a lot to do with points?
> 
> ...


 
Shane


This is absoolutely INCORRECT. This was the case 5-7 years ago but in the last few years things have changed. As judges we are instructed that a dog that shows power and fights MUST be put higher then the dog that just grips full and hangs on. A slightly shallow grip but very hard and fighting is suppose to score higher then a dog that bites full with no power and hangs on...The judge should be evaluating the power and fighting in the dog and rewarding it.


Frank


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## Shane Woodlief (Sep 9, 2009)

Frank Phillips said:


> Shane
> 
> 
> This is absoolutely INCORRECT. This was the case 5-7 years ago but in the last few years things have changed. As judges we are instructed that a dog that shows power and fights MUST be put higher then the dog that just grips full and hangs on. A slightly shallow grip but very hard and fighting is suppose to score higher then a dog that bites full with no power and hangs on...The judge should be evaluating the power and fighting in the dog and rewarding it.
> ...


Frank I am going to have to disagree with you on this one. What your saying I think sound great in theory but I have not personally witnessed it. Now again my experience is mostly here on the west coast of Canada and what you have talked about has not been the case here. I have been to many trials and my buddy has been to worlds 4 times and never has there been a discussion that a shallow (less full) bite that is more powerful ought to be preferred over a full bite. Dogs that do well are dogs with full, calm grips and outs fast and clean. As one person mentioned earlier the judges really has no way of knowing which is stronger unless he ask the helper. I have never personally seen one ask a helper. So what they go on is a full calm bite.

We will give awards to the helpers favorite dog worked in larger trials. To date the dogs that win that award (a vast, huge amount of times) is not the dog that scores the highest in protection. The dogs that score the highest are not the strongest dogs.

Frank, I agree with you stronger dogs should win the day but I don't think that is the reality unfortunately. Again I am not the best with expressing myself by typing so I hope I have made some since :smile:


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## Dave Martin (Aug 11, 2010)

Frank Phillips said:


> Shane
> 
> As judges we are instructed that a dog that shows power and fights MUST be put higher then the dog that just grips full and hangs on. A slightly shallow grip but very hard and fighting is suppose to score higher then a dog that bites full with no power and hangs on...The judge should be evaluating the power and fighting in the dog and rewarding it.
> 
> Frank


So then Frank, using my dog as an example.. I think his grips are very hard and he definitely loves the fight with the helper, but he does seem to get "mouthy" at times even though his grips stay full. After reading this entire thread (with the exception of your last post), I realized that as many pointed out, his paws on the helper are probably creating the leverage for him to feel comfortable regripping often, whereas if my helper was forcing his legs off of him, I would have to believe he would have to keep his first full grip and not let go.. of course this is just my thought, but my question to you is which would you (and I hope your answer would the same as most judges out there) score higher? the dog that full out engages the helper with a full grip and paws latched on but gets somewhat mouthy on the sleeve.. or the dog that engages with a full grip, no paws, and just 'hangs on for dear life' until the lock up and out?


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

Keith Jenkins said:


> When that happens I usually tell the handler they make a neat thing called nail clippers they sell at pet stores then I procede to put on my scratch jacket and that problem is solved.
> 
> Sorry I missed you on Sunday at the club.


Ya his nails were getting on the long side. I was running him on the bike and that took care of his nails, but over the summer they got a bit long.

Ya I was not up for training Sunday, sorry I missed you.

Eddie


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## Mike Jones (Jan 22, 2009)

Frank Phillips said:


> Shane
> 
> This is absoolutely INCORRECT. This was the case 5-7 years ago but in the last few years things have changed. As judges we are instructed that a dog that shows power and fights MUST be put higher then the dog that just grips full and hangs on. A slightly shallow grip but very hard and fighting is suppose to score higher then a dog that bites full with no power and hangs on...The judge should be evaluating the power and fighting in the dog and rewarding it.
> 
> Frank


Thanks Frank for giving your opinion from a judges perspective. I have noticed that iin the last two years that judges such as yourself and Deacon do reqard dogs that really seriously fight the helper with a hard grip. 

I've seen dogs that go through the motion is full grips that perform more out of prey get lower scores.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Shane Woodlief said:


> Just a thought/question.
> 
> Doesn't this have a lot to do with points?
> 
> ...


You are in left field but there are still a few judges that are doing that mamby crap at club trials. It takes more than a correct dog to get a V score from most Judges these days at most club trials.
If I'm going to consider a puppy from a dog and I see certain judges in there score book the red flag goes up immediately.
I should say if you See Franks name in a score book I think you can be safe to assume the owner of this dog wasn't shopping around for one of the mamby judges.


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## Jeff Batiste (Nov 10, 2009)

Thanks for those who chimed in with more experience especially Frank. Just so I'm clear where's the line between full and slightly full?

If the dogs fight detracts from the fullness of the grip, or causes it to be excessively mouthy should you just leave it or should you attempt to train it to be calmer on the grip? Maybe hard to describe typing but I'd appreciate a try [-o<


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## Shane Woodlief (Sep 9, 2009)

Mike Scheiber said:


> You are in left field but there are still a few judges that are doing that mamby crap at club trials. It takes more than a correct dog to get a V score from most Judges these days at most club trials.
> If I'm going to consider a puppy from a dog and I see certain judges in there score book the red flag goes up immediately.
> I should say if you See Franks name in a score book I think you can be safe to assume the owner of this dog wasn't shopping around for one of the mamby judges.


I guess we can agree to disagree - However I completely agree about dogs and their score books.  I hope that you are right and the tide has turned.


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## Shane Woodlief (Sep 9, 2009)

Mike Jones said:


> Thanks Frank for giving your opinion from a judges perspective. I have noticed that iin the last two years that judges such as yourself and Deacon do reqard dogs that really seriously fight the helper with a hard grip.
> 
> I've seen dogs that go through the motion is full grips that perform more out of prey get lower scores.


Do you mean Doug Deacon?


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## Mike Jones (Jan 22, 2009)

Shane Woodlief said:


> Do you mean Doug Deacon?


Yes Doug Deacon. I have watched him judge trials a number of times and have spoken to him about the fight in dogs (shaking on the sleeve) and received a similar response that Judge Frank Phillips has given here.


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## Mike Jones (Jan 22, 2009)

Jeff Batiste said:


> Thanks for those who chimed in with more experience especially Frank. Just so I'm clear where's the line between full and slightly full?
> 
> If the dogs fight detracts from the fullness of the grip, or causes it to be excessively mouthy should you just leave it or should you attempt to train it to be calmer on the grip? Maybe hard to describe typing but I'd appreciate a try [-o<


It is my understanding from talking to judges that a dog with good fight and 3/4 grip will get a higher score than a dog with a full grip that's just going through the motions in prey. Now a dog with a 1/4 grip or excessive mouthing due to pressure will be scored lower. This is what I have learned from judges. 

Overall, the judges look at the whole picture not just one element, the fight, the presence of the dog, the grip... Of course a full grip with lots of fight should always reign supreme.

If a dog's grip can be fixed, then one should work towards the best picture they can get. This is especially true if the dog has a very shallow 1/4 grip or front canine only.


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## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

Paws around the leg encourages regripping and hectic grips. That's why we don't like it.


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## Dave Martin (Aug 11, 2010)

Martine Loots said:


> Paws around the leg encourages regripping and hectic grips. That's why we don't like it.


Good enough for me.. this makes perfect sense and going forward I think I'll be asking my helper to 'clean' him up on his attacks. I don't forsee him losing any of his fight 'cause of this.. 

So most of you would recommend smacking his paws with the stick and the helper altering his body to achieve less "_pawing_"?


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## Keith Jenkins (Jun 6, 2007)

Don't know about everyone but I don't want anyone stick cleaning my dog... period.


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## Martine Loots (Dec 28, 2009)

Keith Jenkins said:


> Don't know about everyone but I don't want anyone stick cleaning my dog... period.


Me neither. 
Talking about Ring here but I've never seen an arm biter "pawing". We teach the dog to place the front paws on the helper by making the helper sit down on a chair after the entry.
With a leg biter you ca make the helper go backwards or gently push the dog's paws backwards with his arm.

I know SCH requires another technique and you see a lot of stick clearing there but I guess there are a lot of other ways to prevent a dog pawing


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## Jeff Batiste (Nov 10, 2009)

What I've got from this post so far as it relates to dogs pawing is, it depends on the individual dog; what his total picture looks, and where the dog is as it pertains to protection training. To the degree that grips can be influenced through training, if the dogs leg wrapping or pawing interferes with his grips you may want to clean it up a bit, but ultimately judges like to see both full grips and fight/stopping power....

Great discussion thanks for starting this post...


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## Tamara Champagne (Jan 20, 2009)

Keith Jenkins said:


> Don't know about everyone but I don't want anyone stick cleaning my dog... period.


I AGREE!!! I hate when helpers do this, ESPECIALLY the uneducated helper that does it just 'cause he saw someone else do it, or doesn't like the feet up.


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## Frank Phillips (Jan 8, 2008)

Keith Jenkins said:


> Don't know about everyone but I don't want anyone stick cleaning my dog... period.


 

Ok first let me try to answer some of the question...

1. Keith, I agree. I don't have my dogs feet cleaned off. How can you ask the dog to fight and then tie his hands behind his back. However it was done a lot in the past to hide a chewy grip.

2. from *Shane Woodlief....*_Frank I am going to have to disagree with you on this one. What your saying I think sound great in theory but I have not personally witnessed it. Now again my experience is mostly here on the west coast of Canada and what you have talked about has not been the case here. I have been to many trials and my buddy has been to worlds 4 times and never has there been a discussion that a shallow (less full) bite that is more powerful ought to be preferred over a full bite. Dogs that do well are dogs with full, calm grips and outs fast and clean. As one person mentioned earlier the judges really has no way of knowing which is stronger unless he ask the helper. I have never personally seen one ask a helper. So what they go on is a full calm bite._

my reply: Shane I can not comment on what is being done in Canada. But I do know at the USA judges college we have been instructed to look at the POWER of the dog. I will disagree with you that you can not tell how hard a dog is biting, you can see the the sleeve compressing and you can see the power in the dog as he fights the helper as compared to a dog the lightly grips full and hangs on.

Here is an except from the 2008 WUSV Judge's meeting posted on USA's website:

_This area is generally discussed by spectators more that the other parts of the exercises. It is critically important that we are clear in our critiques to ensure that the reason for the rating is that the dog displayed/possessed certain traits or characteristics. We must describe the drives, balance of drives, power and temperament. We must also describe in each exercise how the dog attempts to stop the helper, and reacts to the pressure and the stick hits. We must make it clear for example; comparing a dog with good speed, adequate power and faultless mechanics can not be rated as high as compared to a dog with power, balance in drives, and this dog may make slight fault in portions of the exercise. The dogs with superior traits and training must be recognized. A dog lacking character and intensity in the work cannot receive a “v” rating. A dog that is consistent in behavior but is lacking throughout can only received a “good” rating._
_It was stressed that during the evaluation that the judge must clearly describe the behaviors, temperaments, drives, and hardness of the dog. It is the hope then when faced with dogs of different character/temperament, that when explaining to the public why a dog showing a fault can be rated higher over a dog of less power and temperament with better technical skills._


I do not know what Canada is being told to do but here in the US and worldwide Judges are being told to put up dogs that show power over those that are just technically correct.

3. _Dave Martin wrote: So then Frank, using my dog as an example.. I think his grips are very hard and he definitely loves the fight with the helper, but he does seem to get "mouthy" at times even though his grips stay full. After reading this entire thread (with the exception of your last post), I realized that as many pointed out, his paws on the helper are probably creating the leverage for him to feel comfortable regripping often, whereas if my helper was forcing his legs off of him, I would have to believe he would have to keep his first full grip and not let go.. of course this is just my thought, but my question to you is which would you (and I hope your answer would the same as most judges out there) score higher? the dog that full out engages the helper with a full grip and paws latched on but gets somewhat mouthy on the sleeve.. or the dog that engages with a full grip, no paws, and just 'hangs on for dear life' until the lock up and out?_


My reply: Dave I can only answer you this as I would judge it and I would have to see it to be sure. However a dog that is pwerful and is not using his feet, can still show some power although it is much more difficult. A dog that bites full and is fighting strong but keeps trying to go fuller, I call this pulsing the grip, he is full but trys to go fuller, this is still faulty but not nearly the deduction that a dog doing a similar behavior out of weak nerves. The stronger dog is still faulty and can not score as high as a dog that is full and fights hard and the grip stays calm. But it is a much less of a deduction then a dog that is not fighting.

_4. Jeff Batiste said: __If the dogs fight detracts from the fullness of the grip, or causes it to be excessively mouthy should you just leave it or should you attempt to train it to be calmer on the grip? Maybe hard to describe typing but I'd appreciate a try _

My reply: well Jeff it is still faulty, especially if the dog backs out of the grip some, then you are losing big points. I would train to calm the grip.

_5. Mike Jones said: Overall, the judges look at the whole picture not just one element, the fight, the presence of the dog, the grip... Of course a full grip with lots of fight should always reign supreme._

My reply: absolutely agree!!!


Hope this helps some, sorry it took so long to answer.

Frank


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## Dave Martin (Aug 11, 2010)

Thanks a lot, Frank; as a beginner this definitely helped me understand what is most important to (most) judges. Appreciate your insight.


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## Frank Phillips (Jan 8, 2008)

I also want to be clear...a dog that fights hard but the grip should be calmer in the fight will also NOT "V". There are also very specific criteria to meet for "V" rating...Also from the 2008 WUSV Judges meeting:

*WHAT MAKES THE “V” PERFORMANCE*
One of the problems that has developed over the past few years, is the rating of “excellent” is given far too often. This seems to be more common as it relates to dogs of less character and genetics. In statistics gathered through Europe, dogs are given an “excellent” rating about 40% of the time. As compared to 10 plus years ago the number was 4% to 10%. Part of this is judges are not following the guidelines, not understanding the rules, and not having a clear understanding of character, temperament and genetics. All dogs, no matter what the breed, no matter of breed versus show, must be evaluated the same.
The dog’s temperament must be tested throughout. It starts at the beginning. It is strongly recommended that we use many of the adjective descriptors available to us to note what the animal demonstrates from the onset. This will help place the dog in the appropriate category and rating. In order for the dog to receive an “excellent” rating he must demonstrate the following;

Must be happy 
Must be free 
Must be correct in all parts of an exercise 
Must be well trained 
Must show harmony between dog and handler 
Must show drive (temperament and character) 
Must show balance in drives


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

Frank, thank you for the information, seems the education of Judges is heading in the right direction!


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## Mike Jones (Jan 22, 2009)

Keith Jenkins said:


> Don't know about everyone but I don't want anyone stick cleaning my dog... period.


I agree with you Keith. I'm the only one that corrects my dog. The helper is not my dog's friend he is the bad guy and I want my dog to do his best to take him down not fear him. Dog must believe that they can win and that they are invincible if you want them to be successful.


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## Frank Phillips (Jan 8, 2008)

Edward Egan said:


> Frank, thank you for the information, seems the education of Judges is heading in the right direction!


 
Eddie


USA has consistantly done this for years (nothing is really changing) we send Senior Judge representatives to the WUSV Judges meeting and FCI Judges Meeting and then they prepare and present reports to the rest of us in emails and Powerpoint presentation at the Judges college so that we all stay up on current rules, what we should ALL be looking for while judging and possible rule changes in the future. I think it is a MUST to keep our Judges Program current and the best we can make it.


Frank


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## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

nice thread


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## Keith Jenkins (Jun 6, 2007)

Wanted to post a short video from training this weekend. While not exactly leg-wrapping it does show some differences in "styles" of a couple of dogs on the escape and re-attack. This is a training video gang so don't diss the helper.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NfzBINM1428


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## Dave Martin (Aug 11, 2010)

They look pretty similar to me.. Nice attacks though, doesn't look like either dog uses too much leg but they look like they both engaged well


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Jeff Batiste said:


> Not sure for other Helpers reasons but to me it has nothing to do with how I look, it's about displaying the dogs grip.
> 
> 1) When the dogs paws are resting on me it makes it more difficult to show how strong the dogs grip is
> 2) Also transitioning into the lock up is more difficult, which may put you in an awkward position for the re-attack, again if you don't do it correctly you may put the dog in a position to get a shitty grip and not get evaluated fairly.
> ...


I am not a decoy, but would wish to know that if a dog goes fully into the arm sleeve, confidently and with force, does he need to wrap his paws around the decoy?


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

Here some pic's of leg wrapping

http://5dogsphotography.com/2010-Wo...61-Edward-Egan/11999755_fEpqs#850979302_RXZ6w

Cat# 61 Fri 3 5153, 5154, 5155


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

How would one correct the dog from putting feet on the helper during the escape bite, or actually grabbing the helper with the legs, without decoy correction?


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## Frank Phillips (Jan 8, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> How would one correct the dog from putting feet on the helper during the escape bite, or actually grabbing the helper with the legs, without decoy correction?


 
For the escape bite, I wouldn't....The dog is suppose to be activing trying to stop the helper and fighting...How can he do that just hanging on and hopping next to the helper?


Frank


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Frank Phillips said:


> For the escape bite, I wouldn't....The dog is suppose to be activing trying to stop the helper and fighting...How can he do that just hanging on and hopping next to the helper?
> Frank


Frank...I was asking because most have said it is not really desirable, and most have said they don't like decoy corrections..was just thinking about it and although I am a newbie to SCH, I can't see how it would go to try to correct it, without decoy involvement.

I see some dogs using feet to push against decoys, and others the use the legs to dig their hooks in and try to grab him....I agree with you, as long as the grip doesn't suffer, it is a good thing...


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

so if IT does effect the grip, and you don't want it? how do you correct it without decoy involvement? just curious...


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> so if IT does effect the grip, and you don't want it? how do you correct it without decoy involvement? just curious...


I think most would agree with Frank, leg wrapping on the escape is desired. However on the re-attack it may leave an oppurtunity for the dog to move his grip on the sleeve, which obviously is not desirable.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

ah...maybe I misread it then...that is understandable...so how would one correct it in the re-attack without decoy involvement in the corrective process? trying to figure it out...thanks...


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## Edward Egan (Mar 4, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> ah...maybe I misread it then...that is understandable...so how would one correct it in the re-attack without decoy involvement in the corrective process? trying to figure it out...thanks...


Long line and a pinch collar.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Edward Egan said:


> Long line and a pinch collar.


ok.....


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

I have a little problem with feet as Frank has mentioned to me a couple of times. If I use electric a couple of times for outs my dog will be clean with feet off the helper But I have to be careful with to often I dont like my dog auto outing on the lock up or his bite moving on the lock up and that's what will happen with to much electric. I may play around with having the helper cleaning his feet otherwise the other way works I just have to do maintenance and its just more shit to balance if I can make my problem go away with using a good helper doing it I will.
Oh I should mention my feet problem is after the out my dog doesn't always drop to the ground quickly after he outs.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Mike Scheiber said:


> I have a little problem with feet as Frank has mentioned to me a couple of times. If I use electric a couple of times for outs my dog will be clean with feet off the helper But I have to be careful with to often I dont like my dog auto outing on the lock up or his bite moving on the lock up and that's what will happen with to much electric. I may play around with having the helper cleaning his feet otherwise the other way works I just have to do maintenance and its just more shit to balance if I can make my problem go away with using a good helper doing it I will.
> Oh I should mention my feet problem is after the out my dog doesn't always drop to the ground quickly after he outs.


Thanks Mike, I was wondering how the dog associates the correction with the feet being on the helper, is this just associated from the earlier guarding work??


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Mike Scheiber said:


> I have a little problem with feet as Frank has mentioned to me a couple of times. If I use electric a couple of times for outs my dog will be clean with feet off the helper But I have to be careful with to often I dont like my dog auto outing on the lock up or his bite moving on the lock up and that's what will happen with to much electric. I may play around with having the helper cleaning his feet otherwise the other way works I just have to do maintenance and its just more shit to balance if I can make my problem go away with using a good helper doing it I will.
> Oh I should mention my feet problem is after the out my dog doesn't always drop to the ground quickly after he outs.



After the lockup wait a few seconds and have the helper continue the fight. That will usually take care of auto outs. 
After the "Out" is a whole nuther game.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> Thanks Mike, I was wondering how the dog associates the correction with the feet being on the helper, is this just associated from the earlier guarding work??


I think the helper can brush his feet just before he locks up and the dog will pull them off I will have to see I need someone who can read my dogs reaction and act accordingly or not.
Its a bad habit that I allowed a couple of time to many and now seems to becoming a bit of a thorn.
I have some other guarding issues that also need to be examined that's what winters are for.


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> After the lockup wait a few seconds and have the helper continue the fight. That will usually take care of auto outs.
> After the "Out" is a whole nuther game.


All ways lots of reps of fake outs and yes it dose work very well Bob


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

http://www.youtube.com/user/Gargamellu#p/u/11/ay_J4t0vHkE

An example of a strong dog trying to dominate the helper by using its legs and still maintaining a textbook grip.


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## Candy Eggert (Oct 28, 2008)

Oluwatobi Odunuga said:


> http://www.youtube.com/user/Gargamellu#p/u/11/ay_J4t0vHkE
> 
> An example of a strong dog trying to dominate the helper by using its legs and still maintaining a textbook grip.


Sweet  Very nice dog and work!


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## Shane Carter (May 25, 2008)

Dog in video shows good power and grips. Now I would say that the fact of the dog working on the suit is a contributing factor to the dog wrapping his legs. He wants to control what the decoy is doing and fight him. This dog shows good nerve and is environmentally tuff. This controlling the decoy by wrapping is not desired in SCH so I can understand the problem. It does cause a problem when driving the dog and trying to run away from it. (Flee) 
As far as wrapping the decoy I recently saw at the FR Champs in PA a dog do this on the escort exercise. It was super kool to watch and it was very difficult for the decoy to get away. The dog did not bite until the decoy tried to get away but he was right there so it was hard for him to get away. He did get 2-3 meters on the dog once but I don't think the dog was wrapping him at the time. The judge said it was fine because he was not biting him. 

As far as SCH I can see in the flee but if the re-attack is done over the top of the dog driving him, I think it would be quite difficult for the dog to wrap. 
JMHO


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