# OCD / Compulsive Behavior Correction



## Rob Maltese (Jan 8, 2014)

Looking for advice on correcting OCD / Compulsive behaviors, the main one I'm looking for advice on is during the wearing of a prong / remote collar my dog will scratch / itch it during normal wear. The dog was properly conditioned to both collars, this is a recent issue that began maybe 4-6 months ago but I just realized how much of an issue it really is...


----------



## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Rob, just curious would you mind putting up a video of this itching that is described as OCD/compulsive behavior? I've seen what you describe in dogs that have allergies but the condition dictates the behavior in those cases. My expeirence with prong/e collar related issues is limited as I've never seen either ever bother the dog. 

He's tight/short coated though, probably more so than my mastiff and maybe the metal is or has become bothersome to him, like it is for some people? I don't know. Just throwing an idea out there.


----------



## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

I had one of mine that did this compulsive scratching. It was a good quality collar so I don't believe it was an allergic reaction to the metals used. If a cheapo one then consider replacing it with a good quality one. For my dog, I finally decided that the motion of the prongs on the neck was tickling the fur to much and making him scratch.


----------



## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

That being said, maybe in Rob's case the fit needs to be tighter to lessen the movement?


----------



## Rob Maltese (Jan 8, 2014)

Nicole Stark said:


> Rob, just curious would you mind putting up a video of this itching that is described as OCD/compulsive behavior? I've seen what you describe in dogs that have allergies but the condition dictates the behavior in those cases. My expeirence with prong/e collar related issues is limited as I've never seen either ever bother the dog.
> 
> He's tight/short coated though, probably more so than my mastiff and maybe the metal is or has become bothersome to him, like it is for some people? I don't know. Just throwing an idea out there.






Sarah Platts said:


> I had one of mine that did this compulsive scratching. It was a good quality collar so I don't believe it was an allergic reaction to the metals used. If a cheapo one then consider replacing it with a good quality one. For my dog, I finally decided that the motion of the prongs on the neck was tickling the fur to much and making him scratch.



I will gather video as soon as possible, it happens randomly - sometimes while walking, sometimes while just relaxing, sometimes he will be laying down on the couch with us and hop off just to scratch. The prong collar is a Herm Sprenger, and the ecollar is a ECollar Technologies - could the dog build up a allergy over time? 

As for tightness, the prong is snug - I can fit two fingers width between the prong tip and his skin with minor resistance and the same goes for the remote collar. My concern is more w/ the remote collar over the prong - as we know to get a proper correction the remote prongs have to be touching the skin of the dog, too loose and you cannot get a good connection. Should I loosen the collar and sub in longer remote prongs?


----------



## Matt Vandart (Nov 28, 2012)

why does your dog have an e-collar and or prong collar on when laying down on the couch?

Also could be the nickel in them.


----------



## Rob Maltese (Jan 8, 2014)

Matt Vandart said:


> why does your dog have an e-collar and or prong collar on when laying down on the couch?
> 
> Also could be the nickel in them.


Doesn't have to have either, has just become part of our routine.

Could the dog build a nickel allergy or is it something genetic? I only ask because this is a new issue not something that has been occurring since we've started using the prong/ecollar.


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I would think that an allergy or irritation created by the collar would show physical signs such as inflamation spots, scratches, etc.


----------



## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

saying it is random will of course make it hard to capture on video.
and imo, video without a closeup of the skin under the fur will be of limited value.

what did the vet say when it was examined ? you haven't mentioned skin condition ... only described it in terms of behaviour over 4-6 months 

curious .... why did you describe it as OCD ??
does that mean you feel dogs get OCD too ?
and if so, should it be treated the same way ?
- i always thought that was a modern med term psychologists applied to humans


----------



## Rob Maltese (Jan 8, 2014)

rick smith said:


> saying it is random will of course make it hard to capture on video.
> and imo, video without a closeup of the skin under the fur will be of limited value.
> 
> what did the vet say when it was examined ? you haven't mentioned skin condition ... only described it in terms of behaviour over 4-6 months
> ...



After I gather the video of him scratching I have no problem making the close up. I have yet to bring him to the vet regarding this because well - I never really thought of turning to the vet for it. Besides the scratching and a few cuts on his ears he's in good health. We have yet to notice a skin condition, therefore my thought process have turned to being a compulsive behavior because it is only done when a collar is on, I want to test it out to see if he does it with his flat collar though as well.

OCD - Obsessive Compulsive Disorder

Can dogs get OCD? - Depends who you talk to... PetMD OCD Blog

I don't know how OCD in humans is treated, nor do I know how OCD in dogs is treated therefore I cannot honestly answer this question.


----------



## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

fwiw....had one dog who wore a prong 5-6 hours a day and got neck irritations.

i put some dip on the prong tips and the skin cleared up but the dog reacted the same to collar corrections
(the stuff you use to coat the handles of metal tools)

it was a pita tho and some tips would have to be recoated every now and then

without being there, i would guesstimate it's a combination of insufficient conditioning and subsequent skin irritation from prolonged use
- but only a w.a.g. 

but agree that a prong and Ecollar should not be worn during sofa use unless u got one helluva problem dog //lol//


----------



## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

another one i'll toss out 

- have you also considered using OB ?


----------



## Rob Maltese (Jan 8, 2014)

rick smith said:


> fwiw....had one dog who wore a prong 5-6 hours a day and got neck irritations.
> 
> i put some dip on the prong tips and the skin cleared up but the dog reacted the same to collar corrections
> (the stuff you use to coat the handles of metal tools)
> ...





rick smith said:


> another one i'll toss out
> 
> - have you also considered using OB ?


The skin irritation would show some sort of redness or visible skin irritation I would assume. As I stated the prong/remote collar has sort of became part of our routine, I am working towards doing obedience off collar but it's been slow going. For awhile he would have outbursts of unwanted behavior which included playful barking, playful aggression (trying to insight play) and just being a total ass - mainly due to energy but he has since appeared to of calmed down and fallen into our routine and is a lot less energetic in the house unless I insight play or we go outside. 

Rick, what is this OB you consider me using?


----------



## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

OB and/or redirection

by giving a NO when he starts scratching
that might indicate how obsessive it is as well as teaching him it is undesirable and unacceptable

not referring to nagging ... it would require a follow thru for non compliance


----------



## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

my reasoning being a trained dog will usually respond to a NO if it is behaviour driven rather than due to more uncontrollable physical irritation and/or pain etc 

a dog with an ear infection will generally not respond to a NO
a dog getting fixated on licking his nuts generally will //lol//


----------



## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

i know ... bad examples //rotflmao//


----------



## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

general bouts of being an asshole (inside a home) can often be controlled without going to a prong or Ecollar
- just a flat collar, short lead and less freedom

has worked for me with more than one dog


----------



## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

i think it is all too common that dogs who spend time indoors get "off lead" privileges too early in life and also believe some people feel leads are only an "outside" tool


----------



## Rob Maltese (Jan 8, 2014)

rick smith said:


> OB and/or redirection
> 
> by giving a NO when he starts scratching
> that might indicate how obsessive it is as well as teaching him it is undesirable and unacceptable
> ...





rick smith said:


> my reasoning being a trained dog will usually respond to a NO if it is behaviour driven rather than due to more uncontrollable physical irritation and/or pain etc
> 
> a dog with an ear infection will generally not respond to a NO
> a dog getting fixated on licking his nuts generally will //lol//





rick smith said:


> i know ... bad examples //rotflmao//





rick smith said:


> general bouts of being an asshole (inside a home) can often be controlled without going to a prong or Ecollar
> - just a flat collar, short lead and less freedom
> 
> has worked for me with more than one dog





rick smith said:


> i think it is all too common that dogs who spend time indoors get "off lead" privileges too early in life and also believe some people feel leads are only an "outside" tool


Please don't take offense to this, but man do we need to show you where the edit button is  lol

The dog does listen to the "no" command for the most part, I guess there really should be no "most part" about it, he should respond to it or not however I think I need to do some more follow up corrective work to reinforce the no. Your examples make sense, I have given him a "no" or two before when he scratched and he didn't respond - right there shows an issue because I failed to follow through. I will agree that he was given far too much freedom early on off lead inside the home due to lack of knowledge, he is my first dog and is a very big learning curve. Knowing what I know now - this dogs life would've been completely different from the start, more direction - less freedom. As for the flat collar & lead inside the residence, should I give pops or leash pressure for correction?


----------



## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

My guess would be that the collars are irritating to your dog in the same way that a scratchy tag at the back of a t-shirt is irritating to you. Not necessarily an allergy or a medical problem, just something that's bothersome.


----------



## Catherine Gervin (Mar 12, 2012)

i want to say it was on an "Intelligence of Dogs" show, or a Nat'l Geographic special but i've seen it in a kid's article within a "family magazine"--those tedious things--as well that scientists are studying Bull Terriers in particular for OCD behaviors they believe may give clues to triggers in humans. tail chasing-to-the-point-of-permanent-ear-damage and that running into walls for fun...those were being called OCD by human doctors. i think it's a nearly impossible thing to declare that dogs are not thinking when they are exhibiting compulsive behaviors because the terrain changes and preventive measures had been taken by frustrated owners and the dogs adapted just enough to continue their bad habits--does that not require thought?


----------



## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

no offence taken at all Rob

actually it cracks me up :razz::razz::razz:

i often get razzed for making posts too long and now i get razzed for breaking them up into multiple short one liners :razz::razz::razz:

and why is the happy face emoticon defined as a "razz" instead of "happy" ???


----------



## Rob Maltese (Jan 8, 2014)

rick smith said:


> no offence taken at all Rob
> 
> actually it cracks me up :razz::razz::razz:
> 
> ...


Back on topic! If there was a whip emoticon I would put it up!  kidding kidding.


----------



## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

I have had two foster dogs that I would guess had OCD issues. One was a spinner, one was stressed in the car and tail chased, spun, or weaved the whole time. 

To me, they looked like the behaviours were not really something they were doing consciously, but when stressed, were a coping mechanism. For the spinner especially, time at a shelter under stress and lots of opportunities to rehearse the behaviour really cemented it as a default behaviour. Even loose off leash, she would circle. Adding stress through correction was not helpful, it seemed to me that neither dog was engaging in these behaviours deliberately, they just didn't seem to be able to control and settle themselves.


----------



## Sarah Platts (Jan 12, 2010)

Rob, Back to your OP. (For a guy who constantly complains about folks pulling a thread off topic - don't let rick pull you down to his level - the man never saw a post he couldn't argue about)

Of the dog that had the prong problem, it was the only one that I've had get the condition. Never saw any redness or marks on the skin. It started out with occasional scratching after he had worn it for a while but later it began to be constant about 10 minutes after I put it on him.

This is another style that you might consider trying. It's a different style of prong. 

http://www.fordogtrainers.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=66_77&products_id=4659

They also make plastic tips that you can slip over the prongs. You can also try spraying the prong tips with polyurethane. You can get it in a spray can now at any of the big box hardware stores. Not saying it's a long term fix but something you can try.


----------



## Rob Maltese (Jan 8, 2014)

Sarah Platts said:


> Rob, Back to your OP. (For a guy who constantly complains about folks pulling a thread off topic - don't let rick pull you down to his level - the man never saw a post he couldn't argue about)
> 
> Of the dog that had the prong problem, it was the only one that I've had get the condition. Never saw any redness or marks on the skin. It started out with occasional scratching after he had worn it for a while but later it began to be constant about 10 minutes after I put it on him.
> 
> ...


I looked into the neck tech but couldn't find any hard evidence of it's use being better/worse then your typical prong. I would LOVE to hear feedback if someone has used one before. I will consider the prong covers and see if that does help, thanks for the advice!

I posted this in the Conflict Free Discussion board to hopefully curb any pissing contests that might arise, the goal here is simple - have a thorough conversation from all angles to determine the best course of action.


----------



## John Ly (Mar 26, 2014)

I've used the neck tech. Did not like it at all for my Shepherd. It isn't as wide as a regular prong and doesn't cover a big surface area (prongs too close together) . The prongs are also too short (not good for hairy dogs) and it takes a stronger correction to get the same effect of a regular prong. I had to really yank for my dog to feel it. It basically was like a thin flat collar. Looks good but not good for training. I used it for a week then went back to regular prong.


----------



## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

I have a neck tech. The prongs are shorter, so it does not give the same correction as a regular prong, but it is still stronger than a flat collar. I like it because it is less obviously a prong collar and I don't have to deal with explaining to furbaby people why I have a torture device on my dog. 

FWIW, my DS scratches at both a regular and a neck tech collar.


----------



## Rob Maltese (Jan 8, 2014)

leslie cassian said:


> FWIW, my DS scratches at both a regular and a neck tech collar.


Do you feel this is due to something in particular or could it be a compulsive issue such as my dog has?


----------



## leslie cassian (Jun 3, 2007)

I don't think it's compulsive - I think it tickles/irritates her and she scratches at it sometimes. She only wears it when I am walking her, so nothing I am concerned about.


----------



## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

TOTALLY OFF TOPIC
-- but just to keep the record straight .... Sarah
1. Rob made a joke that was off topic and i joked back, but ALL my other posts have been ON TOPIC
2. I don't feel like i drag anyone down when i present an alternative view and to me that is not arguing...it is presenting an alternative view
- like suggesting an alternative type of prong collar ](*,)

whether i believe that the OCD label applies to dogs had VERY little to do with my suggestions and concrete examples i have given about how to deal with the problem posted
- and if i suggest something it is because i have done it

but it IS starting to piss me off that you throw a jab my way whenever you have a chance...whatever your problem is with my posts, i don't wanna know it

but if that opinion is also held by the majority of WDF members, then i am WASTING MY TIME posting here 
- hard to know whether the silence is agreement with you or just not wanting to get involved with the drama .... but it has started to make me wonder if i am wasting my time 

now that i got a new laptop i have been posting more 'cause it's convenient, but if that is counterproductive i might have to Rethink the whole "posting thing"

*** and i wouldn't have brought this up in Rob's thread had it not been for YOUR little jab, Sarah ](*,)](*,)](*,)

sorry Rob


----------



## Rob Maltese (Jan 8, 2014)

rick smith said:


> TOTALLY OFF TOPIC
> -- but just to keep the record straight .... Sarah
> 1. Rob made a joke that was off topic and i joked back, but ALL my other posts have been ON TOPIC
> 2. I don't feel like i drag anyone down when i present an alternative view and to me that is not arguing...it is presenting an alternative view
> ...


That is correct, my comment was a joke - no seriousness. I do believe that OCD is a human term however I use it in order to help folks better grasp the concept that I am talking about to get the help needed. No need to be sorry Rick, I replied to your PM as well.


----------



## John Michaels (Oct 15, 2014)

rick smith said:


> general bouts of being an asshole (inside a home) can often be controlled without going to a prong or Ecollar
> - just a flat collar, short lead and less freedom
> 
> has worked for me with more than one dog


May I ask for some detailed sugestions on this theory Rick? My dog has recently (in the last 2 months or so) started barking repeatedly while in his Xpen. It could be triggred by one of our 2 cats or JRT wlaking by, or for no ovious reason other than that he is bored and wants to come hangout. When he is out he will harrass the cats or the JRT the latter of which cuases the JRT to fly into a fit of growling and barking which turns into a fun game for my mali. 

I have tried ignoreing his barking, going over and giveing a correction when he barked and a treat when he was quiet, etc. The only think that seems to shut him up and clam him down is putting his vest or muzzle on him to which he responds by just quietly sulking in his corner. I would love to hear some sugestions on dealing with this without haveing to resort to a bark collar. Thanks!


----------



## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

I know you asked Rick but I was curious, outside of his x pen, does he bark at anything on his own (doorbell for example) and if so, does he quiet upon your command? Also, does he know how to bark on command? Many people stop unwanted barking by either waiting out for a moment of silence and rewarding that (shortly followed up by pairing the command with the moment of silence). 

Or they interrupt the barking (by giving the command, which is usually enough to stop the behavior) and then quickly produce a reward when the dog is quiet. There's a lot of ways to approach that. Some do it when the dog is in front of them, he's commanded to bark, then also commanded to not bark (I use quiet as the command). When the barking stops mark, reward. There's a number of pretty short videos on line that show this in action.

I've found that individuals who tolerate any level of attention seeking noise from within a confined area (like a crate) usually will discover that this often escalates in frequency or volume or may even invite other unwanted behaviors from the dog later. This is obviously not the case with all dogs, but with some it can become a perpetual cycle of madness.

Something maybe more simple to do is just to move his x pen to an area where he's not tempted by other activity, which seems to be at least part of the cause for his barking. In other words a place where he is expected to be quiet should probably represent a place where he can be given the best chance at success in doing so.

I guess it all depends upon your needs/priorities with how you go about addressing his barking. I know someone that had a dog with a barking problem that she couldn't deal with. So she had him debarked. The dog was still capable of making noise however and he continued to do so. Ultimately, she chose the wrong solution and never thought to deal with the underlying reasons for his barking. 

Anyway, she was hosting Lance Collins who basically fixed it in 15 minutes or less. He had her put a slip lead on him and when he barked pressure was applied until he stopped, then it was released. Problem solved.


----------



## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

John
sorry i didn't read your Q until now....

re: "May I ask for some detailed sugestions on this theory Rick? My dog has recently (in the last 2 months or so) started barking repeatedly while in his Xpen."

first off i don't consider it a "theory", but if that was the way u saw it i am less inclined to go into details about it 
- it is a part of a system of training use that has worked for more than a couple dogs; not just my own dog 

next, altho i think i understand what X-pens are used for, and seen all the promotions that Leesburg says about them, i don't use them much at all and have specific reasons for not recommending them to other owners either.
- i think they have VERY limited value, training wise
- without going into all the details and reasons why i don't like them that you might want to hear, i will just say that compared to actually working with the dog/pup, on a short lead and a flat collar, they are just another way to confine and "manage" a dog in a small space that is bigger than a crate but smaller than the "real" room it's in.
..... to put it another way : when it's inside there usually isn't much TRAINING going on.
why ? because people tend to get lazy when they can be, and unfortunately X-pens encourage that with most owners.

- i have other reasons too but if i listed those details u might think i'm overthinking 

.....of course you will disagree and say you work with your dog all the time whenever it is in an X-pen, right ??? //lol//


----------



## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

repeat
.....of course you will disagree and say you work with your dog all the time whenever it is in an X-pen, right ??? //lol//

actually your last post gave a good example of how a dog who has trouble in a room will often have the same trouble in an X-pen, and the steps you took were probably excessive and resulted in shutting the dog down rather than teaching it anything

sorry, but that's how i see it

test my theory for a couple weeks and see if you get better results ??


----------



## rick smith (Dec 31, 2010)

just noticed Nicole already wrote out another similar reason why i don't care for them so all i need to do is paste it 

"I've found that individuals who tolerate any level of attention seeking noise from within a confined area (like a crate) usually will discover that this often escalates in frequency or volume or may even invite other unwanted behaviors from the dog later."

...and then they blame the dog, or deny it by saying it's "high drive"


----------



## John Michaels (Oct 15, 2014)

Nicole Stark said:


> I know you asked Rick but I was curious, outside of his x pen, does he bark at anything on his own (doorbell for example) and if so, does he quiet upon your command? Also, does he know how to bark on command? .


 
Thanks for your input Nicole, outside his x-Pen, he doesn’t really bark much, he will do this thing where he will nudge/pester our JRT and then she will snarl and snap the air in front of him which he seems to think is fun game b/c he keeps doing this and then he will start barking at her. He also barks when he wants to be let back in after being let out to go to the bathroom. 

In both cases he will quiet down when I say “hey!”, but then just repeats the play with the JRT if allowed and then barking ensues again.




Nicole Stark said:


> ..interrupt the barking (by giving the command, which is usually enough to stop the behavior) and then quickly produce a reward when the dog is quiet. There's a lot of ways to approach that. Some do it when the dog is in front of them, he's commanded to bark, then also commanded to not bark (I use quiet as the command). When the barking stops mark, reward. There's a number of pretty short videos on line that show this in action. .


 
Yeah I have since ben reading up on teaching the “quiet” command, a lot of methods out there for sure.




Nicole Stark said:


> ..I've found that individuals who tolerate any level of attention seeking noise from within a confined area (like a crate) usually will discover that this often escalates in frequency or volume or may even invite other unwanted behaviors from the dog later. This is obviously not the case with all dogs, but with some it can become a perpetual cycle of madness.


 
I know I’m guilty of this but I do tend to try and just ignore him, (no eye contact, no yelling at him, do not approach X-pen, etc.) then when he is quiet I may go over and pet him or give him a treat, which I do on occasion. I find he will eventually stop barking on his own its more so my GF who is annoyed by the barking and she will often yell at him to shut up which I assume just encourages the behaviour. 




Nicole Stark said:


> Something maybe more simple to do is just to move his x pen to an area where he's not tempted by other activity, which seems to be at least part of the cause for his barking. In other words a place where he is expected to be quiet should probably represent a place where he can be given the best chance at success in doing so. .


 
Definitely would have choses this option first, unfortunately this is not really a viable option for us at this time.




Nicole Stark said:


> Lance Collins who basically fixed it in 15 minutes or less. He had her put a slip lead on him and when he barked pressure was applied until he stopped, then it was released. Problem solved.


 
I think “de-barking” a dog is just cruel and IMHO I don’t think someone who has to resort to that should own a dog, just my opinion ofcourse. As far as the method you mentioned above, I have seen one guy at the IPO club deal with his incessantly barking GSD in such a way, where he basically hangs his dog by a noose made of a wire cable until he shut up. I am not sure that this is something I would feel OK doing at this point as it personally seems very cruel, that said I am new to this whole dog training thing and this is all new to me, I would just like to find a better way without resorting to that method.





rick smith said:


> first off i don't consider it a "theory", but if that was the way u saw it i am less inclined to go into details about it
> - it is a part of a system of training use that has worked for more than a couple dogs; not just my own dog //




My apologies Rick, I didn’t mean it to be taken this way, chock it up to a poor choice of words on my part.




rick smith said:


> (I) don't use them much at all and have specific reasons for not recommending them to other owners either.- i think they have VERY limited value, training wise. - without going into all the details and reasons why i don't like them that you might want to hear, i will just say that compared to actually working with the dog/pup, on a short lead and a flat collar, they are just another way to confine and "manage" a dog in a small space that is bigger than a crate but smaller than the "real" room it's in.





rick smith said:


> ..... to put it another way : when it's inside there usually isn't much TRAINING going on.
> why ? because people tend to get lazy when they can be, and unfortunately X-pens encourage that with most owners.


 

I agree 100% Rick, and I admit I am lazy but I would love to not have my mal locked up and segregated from the other small animals we have running about the house,( 2 other dogs, 2 rabbits, and 2 cats) and not have him chew up any of the furniture or anything else he shouldn’t be when we are not looking and especially when we are out of the house, if you have any suggestions on how I can do this I would greatly appreciate it. 9e was not crated in the car initially, now I have no back seat so he is now crated anytime he is in the car.




rick smith said:


> ....of course you will disagree and say you work with your dog all the time whenever it is in an X-pen, right ??? //lol//


 
Hardly, if ever.




rick smith said:


> actually your last post gave a good example of how a dog who has trouble in a room will often have the same trouble in an X-pen, and the steps you took were probably excessive and resulted in shutting the dog down rather than teaching it anything//


 
That is why I am so thankful for the wealth of knowledge you all have here and your willingness to share, I do not disagree with your criticisms, but as much as I want to know what I am doing wrong, I want to know what I SHOULD be doing instead.




rick smith said:


> ...and then they blame the dog, or deny it by saying it's "high drive"


 
Didn’t even know what “high drive meant” until about 10 months ago.


----------



## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

John Michaels said:


> I think “de-barking” a dog is just cruel and IMHO I don’t think someone who has to resort to that should own a dog, just my opinion ofcourse. As far as the method you mentioned above, I have seen one guy at the IPO club deal with his incessantly barking GSD in such a way, where he basically hangs his dog by a noose made of a wire cable until he shut up. I am not sure that this is something I would feel OK doing at this point as it personally seems very cruel, that said I am new to this whole dog training thing and this is all new to me, I would just like to find a better way without resorting to that method.
> 
> The de-barking, was a preface for a perceived problem and was not intended to imply a basis of what was to follow. My only point was that simple pressure applied to the leash, not what you described in fact quite different, is all that it took to address the issue. If you would, try to not read offered solutions with bias based upon things you've seen others do especially things you find objectionable. You may find that it will get you further in finding/applying solutions to problems that are really quite simple to address.


----------



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I would not allow the Mal to harass the cats or the JRT. That will only blow up in your face. 

Nip it in the bud. :wink:


----------



## John Michaels (Oct 15, 2014)

Nicole Stark said:


> The de-barking, was a preface for a perceived problem and was not intended to imply a basis of what was to follow. My only point was that simple pressure applied to the leash, not what you described in fact quite different, is all that it took to address the issue. If you would, try to not read offered solutions with bias based upon things you've seen others do especially things you find objectionable. You may find that it will get you further in finding/applying solutions to problems that are really quite simple to address.


I do not presume to know much of anything on the topic of dog training as this is my first time at it; my appologies if what I said perhaps sounded judgemental. 

I had initially posted my question in response to Rick's comment that the barking/or otherwise unwated behaviour could be rectified with only a flat collar which I was really intrested in findout more about on the basis that as far as I knew (with my very limite knowledge) unwanted barking was corrected with either a bark collar or through the very long a tedious method of non-aversive treat based training. 

The barking usually happens when I am sitting on the couch watching some TV (the Xpen) is about 10 feet away in one corner of the house so correcting him from there would require me to get up. He tends to bark becuase he wants to hangout with us, or becuase a cat or our JRT walks past.

If i was to use the correction with the flat collar, would this mean that whenever he barks I should get up and give him a"pop" on the flat collar? Sorry if this is a dumb question, just trying to figure out how that works.


----------



## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

First, I do not know what an X-Pen is, and secondly why is the dog in this whilst you are lazng in front of the TV???


----------



## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

John Michaels said:


> I had initially posted my question in response to Rick's comment that the barking/or otherwise unwated behaviour could be rectified with only a flat collar which I was really intrested in findout more about on the basis that as far as I knew (with my very limite knowledge) unwanted barking was corrected with either a bark collar or through the very long a tedious method of non-aversive treat based training.
> 
> The barking usually happens when I am sitting on the couch watching some TV (the Xpen) is about 10 feet away in one corner of the house so correcting him from there would require me to get up. He tends to bark becuase he wants to hangout with us, or becuase a cat or our JRT walks past.
> 
> If i was to use the correction with the flat collar, would this mean that whenever he barks I should get up and give him a"pop" on the flat collar? Sorry if this is a dumb question, just trying to figure out how that works.


There's many ways to deal with this but if I were to correct him it wouldn't be with a flat collar. As I mentioned earlier, the least intrusive method would be for him to understand how to bark on command and how to stop on command. More importantly, when or at what it's simply not acceptable for him to bark. Then all that is needed is a firm QUIET to reinforce what you want.

Separate note. I don't know why he's in the house in a pen (not crate correct) and in what appears to be in close proximity. Rather than assume the details surrounding that would you mind explaining his arrangement?

And, I'll have to go back to see what you said about the idea of teaching him to bark and then using OC to turn it off when/where you don't want it. If I recall, you wanted to know how to stop it, Rick offered advice and you wanted clarification, which is why I stepped in to offer some comments. To clarify, I used the debarked dog as a basis for leading up to something that was resolved in such a relatively simple and obvious manner that, I wanted to give you something to think about with respect to problem solving where your dog is concerned.

I ask about his living arrangement or how he is housed during what sounds like down time, because my while not house dogs are permitted in the house they are expected to follow any of the rules your standard competent dog owner expects. If I cannot supervise them, then they are put in a place where I can ensure that they won't be set up to fail.

They are, however rarely, permitted free time and access together in the house. When they are, the supervision and expectations go up a notch. Absolutely no screwing around, no pacing from room to room, no riffling through or digging at things, etc. 

Basically, with few exceptions, nothing in the house belongs to them. The mastiff doesn't care, the dutch has made it so that I must care and thus, insist upon this "rule" to be enforced. Despite limited freedom in the home they are provided with what I consider to be sufficient time together, which is something I do insist upon and it is offered daily but it is also not during a time or under circumstances that are heavily governed by my rules. 

During this time, their rules and natural inclinations may and are actually welcomed to take over. It is of course, assumed or should be, that these dogs are known to be safe together. There's never been an issue with any of the dogs I have owned (regardless of breed or gender or end goal with respect to sport/task) that interferes with this order. 

My experiences with them are collective while also at times separate, I have found it reduces a need or desire for competition amongst them over trivial things or important ones, and that includes food. This is one of many reasons why they are not fed on a set schedule. It' s been my experience that expectations lead to behaviors I simply don't want. I mitigate that by at least on some level, mimicking an environment even if loosely that encourages collaboration rather than competition between the dogs.

With that said, I'm getting to the point of intruding a bit on the fact that he's contained while the others are permitted to roam free in the home. His barking may be somewhat genetically induced but I'm inclined to say that it's a self created problem. Some might see one piece or part as being contributory elements, but I read of a situation that appears to be imbalanced, one that invites behaviors that are no fault of his but rather a result of the choices that have been made for him.

I could go on about this but I want you to think about it a little bit and mull over possible solutions that don't involve discipling the dog. As far as the story I told earlier, I understand that Lance simply sat in a chair nearby the kennel that the dog was in. Since the dog had no reason to associate Lance to the pressure that occurred when the barked, the dog quickly associated his own actions with pressure/slight discomfort. From that, the dog made the choice on his own and relatively quickly to move from stress to comfort by modifying his behavior.

The line pressure, if I understand the story correctly, was slow and got progressively greater until the noise stopped, then the pressure was released. I worked with a dog that was corrected for "drive" leaking in the same manner you described. I had the opportunity to watch this dog from 7 months to 2 years all the while observing cause and effect of her training in her. 

She came to me at around two years of age or a bit older . This problem moved her from one handler to 3 more in the span of a year. All I used was a martingale collar and worked her in a lower drive state. None of them realized that the dog was vocalizing in anticipation of being corrected, the more corrections that came, the worse the vocalization got. I also realized that this behavior was more likely to occur while she was in heat.

Anyway, take corrections out of the picture and think about the elements that cause the barking which you can control. Chances are you won't have to do anything at all to this dog to stop what's going on. If you do, it will likely be to reinforce the behaviors you do want. Ignoring those you don't want may not be the answer but correcting those you don't want may come down to a simple word that is mutually understood by all parties involved.


----------



## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Gillian Schuler said:


> First, I do not know what an X-Pen is, and secondly why is the dog in this whilst you are lazng in front of the TV???


This is an x pen: http://www.gemgreyhounds.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/x-pen.jpg


----------



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Rob Maltese said:


> I looked into the neck tech but couldn't find any hard evidence of it's use being better/worse then your typical prong. I would LOVE to hear feedback if someone has used one before. I will consider the prong covers and see if that does help, thanks for the advice!
> 
> I posted this in the Conflict Free Discussion board to hopefully curb any pissing contests that might arise, the goal here is simple - have a thorough conversation from all angles to determine the best course of action.


rob..

the evidence would be the dog not doing what it is doing in YOUR case.

get the covers, try the neck tech.....someone elses reviews are not going to help you, it is dog/people specific many times as to what is preferred.

my .02


----------

