# Am I entirely wrong with my understanding of the concept?



## Sandra King

Okay, the overall goal is to have an operational dog, right? 

But in order to get there, we have all those different certifications in there and we have to start somewhere. 

So in the beginning is the indication, swissies and getting the human scent down as in air-scent, which requires consistency and a plan as well as much as training as possible, which we simply don't have. 

So my bitch has been doing it since January. We've missed a lot of training since my team isn't really committed to every weekend, as a matter of fact, our trainer would only meet up once a month if it was up to him and he said that I cannot work towards certification at all. 

I think we've been basically talking about the same thing not getting what each other is trying to say. You know how that works, especially on the internet, you are arguing with each other even though you are basically saying the same thing, using different words and it takes you twelfe pages figuring it out. 

I am always trying to look at the very basics first before I even think about the operational part. I think about the first certification and what I have to do of how to get my dog to pass that. 
How do I get from point A to point B. So my mentor said they have to have the human scent down and that is literally what I've been trying to say. 
Work out one problem before you move to the next one without creating more confusion to the dog. She said that if they can search in heavy brush they should be able to search in buildings and my trainer has been saying the same thing BUT in order to do that, she needs to be able to search at all and she's not that far yet that she can work out complicated problems. 
So we have to go back to more simpler stuff. Let's say he wants me to certify in heavy brush, I make sure she's got the human scent down (foundation), work in as many different areas as possible but I am always going back to heavy brush and working out many different problems in heavy brush, then moving back to meadows and open field, after that, going back into moderate brush, trail, throwing a building in for some diversion but still being consistent and then going back to heavy brush again, next time back into the meadows, then the next two times heavy brush in different areas, one time at my SAR Buddies place, next time at Camp Zerbe... let's say one time you sit in a tree (if we are that advanced already), next time you sit in a tire. We literally build the dog up from scratch towards certification, yet go beyond it. 
THIS is what I mean to work towards certification, with consistency, giving the dog enough stability to understand human scent, working many different places yet you have consistency and a plan but we don't have a plan, we have no concept and no plan and what we do doesn't work.... 

I've been trying to explain that if I know I have a heavy brush certification, I'd concentrate on what is important, many different places, areas but always going back to heavy brush, so literally like 60/40 for the next couple of months and then maybe the other way around. So everything gets worked on for real life searches but you can still work towards certification... so I set the basic foundation, my dog knows how to search, we've done many and plenty of different areas, from woods, to heavy, moderate, meadows, open fields, buildings, trails but we've worked consistently towards the first certification. Now that we passed that we are moving onto the next goal, let's say trail problems. We keep working on heavy brush, meadows, moderate brush, open fields but always go back to trail problems...

Am I really wrong with that kind of concept? To have consistency within the training and going from A, B, C, to D without jumping from A directly to D and moving way beyond ourselves? If I am wrong, please explain...


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## Bob Scott

Who is doing your certifications and what is required of you as a handler in these certifications?
There is a TON more to it then having a dog find something/someone. 
You should have map reading, first aid, communication skills, yadda, yadda!
If you trainer would only meet once a month you should find a different team OR different venue to train with your dog. Sounds like the dedication or necessary time element isn't near close enough.


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## Nancy Jocoy

I am really a little bit confused about your progression and training plans here and trying to decipher your post .

We are working a non scent specific air scent dog at this point, right? Not a trailing dog

What is the training progression they have laid out for you what steps do you need to go through on your team? If nothing else what is the series of tests you go through?

For training, our expectation is you go to team training . More experienced members assess where you are and then give you things to work on the next few weeks and YOU need to out with the dog 3-4 times a week doing them. That means getting your own victims and setting up your problems (blind or not as experience level dictates) -- or -- it means meeting up with other team members on your own time (that is mainly what we do - there are clusters in our team in different areas and they get together and train during the week)

What would you consider a complicated problem at this point in the game? Can you describe it?

------

And yes, what Bob said. We have separate check offs on map, navigation, and radio skills as well as requirements for first aid/cpr/crime scene preservation etc. And on a training test the handler must be able to use the map to develop a strategy and then transcribe back to the map (without the aid of a GPS) what they did. Normally on searches we download the GPS track but stuff happens and everyone needs to know where they are and where they have been at all times anyway.


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## Michele Fleury

You are going about it somewhat backwards based on what you are saying, which is that you are working heavy brush and then you will work trails. The heavy brush and the night searches are the most difficult potentially for handler and/or dog. To build the foundation, you start with the basics and work up to the most difficult .

The dog must understand the game, that it is to locate and follow human scent and it must have a solid refind behavior in place. You should be consistently successful on trail and relatively open areas, short easy probelms, before you move to the harder stuff. The searching part for the dog is the easy part for a motivated work-minded dog because it draws on instincts. The hard part is solidifying the refind in all situations. Once the dog is searching, locating and giving it's trained refind behavior consistently on a variety of short problems, then you start working in nose time, doing longer problems and more difficult terrain.


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## Nancy Jocoy

And on the way from A to B to C to D you may go:

A to B to A to C to B to A to whatever, IOW as you increase difficulty and nose time you also keep throwing in short easy stuff so the dog never knows what to expect and stays motivated. But yes, you would go make sure you can do B before you do C -


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## Jennifer Michelson

I am a bit confused by your post too Sandra. It sounds a little bit like a power struggle between you and your team for one. If you believe that in actuality you all are saying the same thing but in different ways, I would say, defer to your training director/mentor and stop trying to get them to understand your point. They have been doing this longer and maybe a little deference would help. Or if they really are that bad, you might need to change venues. I kept my mouth shut and did what I was told for a good couple of years (still defer, but have more opinions now). But I also know that I have some very good dog trainers on my team. There are a few things I was right about regarding some of my dog's issues (and I wish I had done what I wanted), but at the time, I did defer to their experience. At any rate, I learned a lot.

It sounds like maybe you are moving a bit too fast. Are you sure you have done all the simple steps leading up to the more complicated problem you are testing for? It really is about repetition in the earlier stages. You should be working the dog at least 3x/week. It was such a PIA to get victims to help, but hubby got good at hiding! My team trains officially 2x/month. It is the handler's responsibility to train in between with who ever you can (of course using people you know you can direct well)...I was on the phone often with my mentor early on and had lots of email questions. I was given tasks to do in between trainings and I asked for detailed instructions what to do "if this happens".

Is your team asking you to only train for heavy brush? What is the longest your dog works for? How complicated are the problems. Do you go back to the beginning when changing things or when you run across a difficulty? 

My team has 4-5 'check-offs' before being able to take the certification test. Heavy brush is one of our tests too. But we dont let the dog/handler teams start their check offs until we are pretty sure they are a complete package and can pass the final cert test. So basically, they are not worrying about passing a check off while not being sure their dog is ready for everything. This means that the dog is working multiple victim, several hour long problems consistently. Their alert is solid and they understand the 'game' perfectly.

As for buildings being the same as heavy brush, I have to disagree. Buildings are pretty difficult and you need to go back to runaways when starting them. Air moves in goofy ways in a building and an inexperienced dog cannot be expected to work out some building problems.


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## Sandra King

Jennifer, the heavy brush was just an example. I know that we have to work a lot more on the foundation. She's not bad for what we've been doing. She's actually pretty good. She could be a lot further if I had the resources but I have to work with what I got and that is not much. 

To be honest it's really frustrating and tiring I am at a point where I told them that I rather stop training than knowingly ruining my dog and doing things way to fast and overjumping a thousand different steps... that is exactly my point, the foundation and that it needs to be rock solid... oh well...


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## Bob Scott

I'll also add that I, and probably most here, spent almost two yrs on the team without a dog. That was for ME to learn all the extras and learn what is expected of a dog handler without the distraction of actually having a dog with me.


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## Nancy Jocoy

The foundation needs to be rock solid but measurable progress needs to be made within reasonable times.

Are you able to train at least 2-3 times a week with others being your victims? When you say "she's not bad for what she has been doing" is that what you mean?

If that is not the bottleneck in your progress, what is it?


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## Sandra King

@Bob: I know what is expected of me as a handler and we have team training outside the K9 Unit. Usually you have to be on the team for a year before you can join the K9 Team but my "dog material" goes way beyond what they have. Bill Dotson said it's a Wasteland and he's completely right. 

Nancy: that is my biggest issue. I don't have any helper where I live. I posted adds on craigslist even put in there that people can get credits for being a helper for our search and rescue team, asked the local fire-departments, the only thing I didn't do is going to the local police station... I have not gotten a single reaction, which is why I am now going to join the French Ring Club in Syracuse. At least those people have a concept, know what they are doing and are even willed to help with the SAR stuff. 

Despite the lack of training, as long as I train with the girl on the team we are actually doing progress. 

My issue is that our trainer can't even determine that a dog is not cut out to do SAR. 
I am supposed to work from home but get no evaluation of the dog nor any homework whatsoever
We have no plan, concept...
It's a constant battle. I am asking for a concept, asking for a plan, asking for homework, what to work on and I get nothing back in return. I can only guess what to do and I think the only reason why we make progress is because I have a general idea of what I have to do but I am new on air scent. So I am completely relying on what people, from OUTSIDE, the team tell me what to do and I really shouldn't have to do that. 

I should NOT have to come on here to ask "What do I have to do next?" 
"Am I really wrong with my concept?"
"Can I change the Indicator"


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## Nancy Jocoy

I think if you are having such a problem with the leadership of the team it probably needs to go up your internal chain or you need to find another team that you can fit in with. Posting about their lack of ability and leadership can only come back to bite you.

That may mean waiting to train a dog and putting in time as a ground pounder first. But that is not a bad thing because that evaluates many things other than your ability to train a dog, which is secondary. I think even in LE, it is the rare police officer who lands an immediate spot as a K9 officer but has to do their time as a patrol officer until a slot opens up.

Getting victims IS hard. You impose on friends and family and scouts are good - as are junior civil air patrol groups (not sure what they are called but their is one for kids). Do you have any CERT teams? Some of those folks may be interested.


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## Don Turnipseed

I personally think SAR should require a couple of years hunting over dogs. so y'all can realize that a dog can track anything, anywhere pretty much. Dense cover, open fields, yadda yadda yadda....makes no difference to the dog, just people. Then maybe you would relax and just concentrate, on teaching the dog to track scent specifc and give you a recognizable cue upon location.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Has the leader trained a dog? Do they have a program set up for developing new/dog handler teams. It almost seems as if you have stepped on a few toes and they have left you to your own devices. Asking questions seeking clarification or trying to modify their general training to your specific dog, can result in stepping on egos. Once you do that--intentionally or not--you're doomed for that group. If you are going to do the group thing, you have to find one you are compatible with, Even better, find an individual who is willing to help you along step by step.


T


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## Sandra King

The K9 director trained one dog only. One dog and there is no program whatsoever to set up new dog/handlers. There is a rule that the handler is supposed to be one year with the SAR team so he's got the Searcher I before he becomes a handler but I was an exception. Only because I asked like a dozen times have they now started to train me in GPS and Map&Compass. It's the third time in over half a year we did that... great huh?

I am not the first and the last one that addresses those concerns. The other girl went through the same thing I am going through right now, which is why she's helping where she can. 

It's not because I stepped on some toes, trust me, some other people stepped on his toes way before me.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Sometimes, you assume they have an answer and they really don't. What you are looking for, they can't give and everyone is frustrated. Sounds like you need to find a trainer that can help you develop your dog and stop beating a dead horse with the group.


T


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## Nancy Jocoy

All I can say is I think you should escalate within the chain of command on your team. Is there an appeals policy? Your bylaws may address a pathway for resolution.


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## Jim Delbridge

I hate to say this, but the norm is that dog teams usually reach a level of proficiency despite their local group. There are exceptions. I know some groups that go far beyond what the national groups expect, but they are the exceptions. SAR groups as a whole tend to form around personalities and politics. The handlers I see that do excel are those individuals that are obsessed about the task whether it be HRD, trailing, or area search. They go to seminars as often as time and money allows them. They quickly learn that just like SAR groups that there are a lot of instructors that are more smoke than substance. It is not an easy adventure.

I have been told many times that they do it better in Europe, but experience with handlers that come here from over there is that it is no different. 
There tends to be two groups of SAR volunteers with a wide gap between, the hobbiests (who train occassionaly to feel better about themselves then often get more in the way then assist at real searches) and the hardcore teams who can often be better than the professionals that do it to "put in their time for advancement". The hardcore tend to just get the job done and move on. The hobbiests make lots of noise about routine searches.

If you had a real heart to heart talk with Dotson, he probably said the same and told you it was up to you as to where you go from here.

In my experience, any time a team makes an exception for a dog, issues tend to crop up either with the handler or the team. If my team's rule was you had to do a year of human skill training before you start a dog, I wouldn't care how good your dog was out of the gate. That would simply be poor timing on your part and there will be other dogs. I learned the hard way that it takes both a great handler and a great dog to make a great team and without both, the team is average at best. I personally want the best for the potential victims to stay alive so that my dog and I don't have to go find their remains.


Jim Delbridge


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## Nancy Jocoy

We are pretty adamant about members having ICS 100-200-700-800 right off the bat (yes SAR is beaurocratic and paperwork too better learn now) and get into a FUNSAR or equivalent class (and they have to do the night search and camping)

For 3 months a dog cannot even come to training. They have to be out in the woods hiding as victims and flanking for other dog teams to learn what it is like.

Amazing how many images of greatness disappear in briar patches full of mosquitos at dusk with dark approaching and noises out there and eyes looking at you....


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## Sandra King

Well, I do have my courses and the grid searcher now, was even on my very first real-life night search and I guess I am one of those hardcore people. If I commit, I commit and I want to do it right. 

I did have a heart to heart talk with Dotson and what he said about the particular person better stays unsaid. It is good to have the information I have and I can go from here.


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## Bob Scott

I spent my first two yrs in SAR hiding in the woods and laying in mosquito infested ditches. I actually enjoyed that aspect of it because I saw the dogs first hand. I missed a lot of how "partial" the top level was to allowing dogs and handlers in because of friendships, being firefighters, LEOs, etc.
Then I spent the next two yrs helping out new handlers and dogs because I had a bit of dog training experience. That's a big part of why I was asked on the team. 
Seems that went down hill when my suggestions to unload dogs and handlers that couldn't cut it butted heads with those in charge. 
Being one of only two civilians on the team didn't help my situation. :lol:
Pretty much what Jim commented on about exceptions. 
The team self certifications were another sore spot with me. I'll always question a few searches we went on, particularly for lost kids. :sad:


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## Sandra King

> The team self certifications were another sore spot with me.


yeah, same here, all you need is one operational dog-handler or a dog-handler that used to be operational and he can take the first three certifications. I don't know if I like that. I'd rather go outside the team and have somebody objective doing the certs.


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## Nancy Jocoy

I really don't have a problem with self certifications if you ahve training checklists and objective criteria and specifications on test set up. We do them and try to have a non team evaluator participate.

For the cadaver dogs we MUST do national

We strongly encourage external certs and most do but the external tests are actually less comprehensive than the internal ones we make them take.


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## Bob Scott

Nancy Jocoy said:


> I really don't have a problem with self certifications if you ahve training checklists and objective criteria and specifications on test set up. We do them and try to have a non team evaluator participate.
> 
> For the cadaver dogs we MUST do national
> 
> We strongly encourage external certs and most do but the external tests are actually less comprehensive than the internal ones we make them take.



"IF" being the key word.
When the certification says the training material shall be in the area for 24 hrs at minium and the top guns only put it there for 20 mins because "we can't leave it here over night", I question the accuracy/usefulness/etc/
That's just ONE instance of my disgust for self testing....at least with the particular team I was with. 
There were some really nice folks with really nice dogs on that team but there were also really nice people that didn't have a clue due to only knowing what they were taught.
Hopefully it has gotten better in the 4 or so yrs since I've been gone......hopefully!:wink:


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## Nancy Jocoy

True, but even outside certifications won't solve that issue entirely. The decision to deploy a dog has to include an assessment of day to day proficiency not just a passing score on an outside certification - so there is always the chance of internal politics.


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## Bob Scott

Yes but! 

At least outside certification would unconver much of the bs with unqualified dogs and handlers. Again..hopefully.


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## Sandra King

Bob Scott said:


> Yes but!
> 
> At least outside certification would unconver much of the bs with unqualified dogs and handlers. Again..hopefully.


Exactly. If somebody certifies, they should certify for perfomance and not because somebody feels sorry for you and wants to let you through just because you've trained for years and years and years. And even if you are usually a great team, if you suck that day, you suck...


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## Nancy Jocoy

Since I have actually nationally certified and recertified to HRD tests 3 years in a row and plan to this fall as well, I can say that for civilians getting to and then INTO a test is not always so easy - particularly if there are not state certifying officials as in New York. 

When we first started certifying NAPWDA HRD, there were TWO master trainers in the USA, now there are FIVE. The cadaver dog master trainers in NAPWDA and IPWDA do not get paid to do this, BTW and a stretched to max providing a valuable service in doing so.

NASAR certification has been a joke. The day Gordon Deno failed (Gordon and his dog, Duncan, had multiple actual live finds as well as cadver finds before he tested) because he found the victim "too quickly" -- would you have pulled him from saving lives? Traling judges who don't know the difference between tracking and trailing. People grandfathered in as evaluators who have never certfied in the discipline they are testing?

As long as a requirement for outside certification keeps a trained and capable resource from saving lives - I will support internal certs AND continue to encourage everyone to take all the national tests out there to proove they have the right stuff. How many police agencies do you think 'certify' their dogs to outside standards?

There are always going to be poor performing teams out there (And certification testing is to the most basic of levels suitalbe for deployment! All the tests are like that) but the good teams are not going to risk all the work they have done and their reputation by fielding unsuitably trained resources.

-------

I totally agree you should certify someone based on performance. I guess the thing is, I have been on well over 100 actual searches by now, I and have seen enough nationally certified dog teams come** in and perform horribly to realize it aint just the peice of paper. Some we just don't call back. 

**Until we certified our own HRD dogs we would, with permission of our LE, call in outside certified resources and then flank for them on HRD searches. Same thing if there was a big search needing more live resources.


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## Jim Delbridge

I'm not even going to touch on all the trials and tribulations that come with many SAR teams that do internal certs. I do know a nearby team whose certifications are way above and beyond national standards. They are going to national standards as well for mainly one reason.
All the state emergency managers that wish to tap into Department of Homeland Security funds are required to use resources that have nationally recognized certifications. The canine emergency manager for my state told me this himself. It's why I got a NAPWDA standard and will continue to.

Now, during the last round of tornadoes, did this mean that only nationally certified dog teams were used in the state? Unfortunately, no. County managers panicked and took all comers. And, they learned their lesson. If we don't get another round of F4-F5 tornadoes for another five years then we'll probably go through this learning curve again.

In between, having the national cert helps me out with court appearrances. Nancy is correct in saying that a lot of local L.E. use a state certifier rather than a national certifier. From what we saw in the recent Florida court case, some don't even go that far.

I've heard that NASAR has gone through a change recently where their certifications have lost credibility, but I don't know the details.

I do know that my state was going to send me and my dogs to Joplin until it was stated that Joplin only wanted HRD dog teams in groups of five. I'm assuming this was someone that recenly attended a NIMS class. I'd like to have helped, but I don't show up uninvited. 

The point of this rambling is that states and federal requirements are still in a massive state of flux. I've pushed for all the dog teams in my civilian group to get national certifications that are recognized by the state emergency management. I get calls regardless, but the area searchers are going to get the bulk of their calls through county emergency management. This way the group doesn't have to nag a dog team to keep up with their cert. If they've lagged on their re-cert then they don't search...simple as that. Our grant money goes to pay for their certification costs.

I've been an outside evaluator for other teams. I set up the tests per their standards TO THE LETTER. Doing so, I've watched many dog teams fail and blame me for setting up such a hard test.
What do I do differently? I show them their area. I hand them their flags, tell them there are "zero to N sources" (N defined by the team standards), and tell them to come get me when they are done. 
I sit in a chair outside the area. People that work my problems can tell you that that the only time they see sources is when I want them to see sources. I expect them to rely upon their dog and only their dog. Most people that train with each other give away hints, subconciously direct toward sources, OR (most importantly) cue where NOT TO SEARCH.
Set up blinds for each other. The person that set up the blind will work the problem fastest because they know what to ignore.
In real searches, we can't afford to ignore anything.


Jim


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## Sandra King

Nancy Jocoy said:


> Since I have actually nationally certified and recertified to HRD tests 3 years in a row and plan to this fall as well, I can say that for civilians getting to and then INTO a test is not always so easy - particularly if there are not state certifying officials as in New York.
> 
> (...)
> 
> 
> I totally agree you should certify someone based on performance. I guess the thing is, I have been on well over 100 actual searches by now, I and have seen enough nationally certified dog teams come** in and perform horribly to realize it aint just the peice of paper. Some we just don't call back.
> 
> **Until we certified our own HRD dogs we would, with permission of our LE, call in outside certified resources and then flank for them on HRD searches. Same thing if there was a big search needing more live resources.


Gawsh I wished I lived closer to you... seriously, I would love to work with you.


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## Nancy Jocoy

See (Jim) and there you have it. Here most searches are run by the sherriffs office and NOT Emergency Management. 

I think the NASAR shake up was with the misallocation of funds donated for SAR dogs after 9-11. Most of the leadership of the dog section left. But they have always had the issue of grandfathering in their evaluators and letting them test in disciplines in which they were not themselves certified.


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## Jim Delbridge

I think it's(NASAR) more due to mistrained evaluators. The misallocation of funds was years back and part of why NSDA formed.

Most of my work with my dogs is through county sheriffs and metro detectives. They could care less about my cert as long as my dogs do the job they are asking.

Nice personal news. The Biltmore can now ship its wine to Oklahoma distributors, so my life is now complete. *grin* 

Jim


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## Nancy Jocoy

One good thing we got out of NASAR years ago was understanding why most trailing dogs failed their test. Apparently a lot of teams don't actually train the dog and handler to find the START of the trail in an environment highly contaminated with fresher human scent. Go figure.

LOL we were in PA around 2000 and thought if we had more money we would bring Yuengling beer to the South. We did not have the money and someone beat us to the bunch. Some of the best cheap beer out there. (beer is more my poison than wine)


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