# September 10 Training



## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

Here are two short videos of Jak and me this morning. Stacia and her dog, Achilles, are in the background.

Click here to watch Sept10-06-003

Click here to watch Sept10-06-004

And a couple of pics, too. Click to enlarge:


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Hey! I thought I couldn't view your video clips, but turns out I just have to wait a minute for the big blue "Q" to go away, and the screen appears!


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

:lol: #-o


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Kristen Cabe said:


> :lol: #-o


Yeah, I know.

It's the only media player I've seen that doesn't come up with a screen and advise you that it's loading........ just a big blue Q. :lol:


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

Quicktime just sucks.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Kristen Cabe said:


> Quicktime just sucks.


It does kinda. I have three or four others I've downloaded to handle various video clips, and they're all better so far.


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

You can get conversion SW or buy quicktime pro

All of this costs around $30

I have not done it yet but it is frustrating for sure


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## Sarah Hall (Apr 12, 2006)

No wonder, I'm sitting here cursing my computer for not loading anything, but I guess it's just quicktime. 
He's looking very good! Looks like does the same thing Carbon does when he wins the sleeve, grabs it with those front paws and dares you to take it away. I love the way Stacia's Achillies is like "MY TURN MY TURN GIVE IT TO ME NOW!!!!" in the background. :lol:


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## Andres Martin (May 19, 2006)

Kristen...
You are teaching your dog to become chewy...and chewy is not a good thing. He's also moving towards the end of the sleeve as its being fed to him. Neither of these actions are good for your sport. Furthermore, your dog is pulling, and being rewarded for it. You want your dog PUSHING into the bite. Ask your trainer how to get these items addressed properly...and if he considers them valid observations. He may have specific goals in mind for your pup, which are not evident in a video.
Additionally, I see a nice dog! Congrats.


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

The handler should be a post, when the dog bites, you stand in one spot, let the decoy and the do the moving, I see you walking around following your dog with the leash. Also, when the dog is on the sleeve, pull the line tight as you can, and the decoy pulling away from the dog, if the dogs grip isn't full, let slack in the line and the decoy makes the grip full ON THE GROUND, fight the dog on the ground (4 legs on the ground I mean), when the dog makes the grip full then pull tight again, if the dog loses the sleeve then that's fine, go back to agitation, "nuh nuh nuh nuh nuh you lost the sleeve!" n stick tongue out at dog :lol: This way the dog learns if he doesn't grip he loses the prey. If he's not biting full, don't let him practice bad biting behaviors, always full mouth. When the decoy slips the sleeve, run the dog, if the dog is thrashing, put your hand under the dogs chin and calm the dog petting over their head. If the dog is running with the sleeve and the grip loses its fullness, pause, grab the sleeve, make the grip full, then continue running the dog.

I'm not criticizing, just the way I see it from looking at the video and the way I decoy the younger dogs. Like Andres said, perhaps your trainer has specific goals in mind, no problem there. From a decoys perspective, nothing is more annoying than a handler that keeps the line slack and walks around, but everyone does it at some point, including myself. Cujo went for a decoys ass because there was slack in the line and I was following him... lesson learnt quickly. Perhaps some people have other methods, n perhaps some people disagree with me, so JMO 

He's lookin good though! Thanks for posting the video.


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## Andres Martin (May 19, 2006)

> when the dog makes the grip full then pull tight again


...you must be careful with this...because in sport, the dog making a full grip would be countering...and you don't want (usually) to reward that with more fight (initially). The way to teach effective countering in sport, is via "acting" submissive at the counter...or giving the sleeve for a carry. If a dog...in sport...is taught to counter properly, he should be moving INTO the bite.

So, in sport you reward when he counters...You reward initially when he gets a full bite, then when he keeps a full bite for longer and longer periods, and you give resistance if and when the pup is ready.

In general terms, bad decoys feel the dog bite well, and renew the "fight"/increase the tension at that point. That is exactly contrary to what should be done.

IMO...in sport.


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

Agreed. Sometimes it's easier to show people while you work than to describe it in writing. There's always alot of variables such as this, incl dog experience and age, as well as timing, that seperates the good decoy from the great decoy  But generally speaking, when a dog isn't clamping properly or chewing, we put on back pressure on the lead so the dog is forced to keep his bite instead of moving around on the sleeve. Once the habit is formed it's alot easier.


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

> Kristen...
> You are teaching your dog to become chewy


How? What am I doing?



> He's also moving towards the end of the sleeve as its being fed to him.


We did notice him starting to do that at training last time. I'm not sure what Wayne's plans are to work on this issue.




> The handler should be a post, when the dog bites, you stand in one spot, let the decoy and the do the moving, I see you walking around following your dog with the leash. Also, when the dog is on the sleeve, pull the line tight as you can. ... if the dogs grip isn't full, let slack in the line and the decoy makes the grip full ON THE GROUND, fight the dog on the ground (4 legs on the ground I mean), when the dog makes the grip full then pull tight again,


Thanks for the input, Mike.  I was told to be a post until Jak bites, and then to stay behind him to keep the leash tight in a straight line from his head to his tail. That's why I am walking around. The leash isn't loose, but not as tight as I can pull it either. "Gentle tension" is what my TD calls it, "to let him know I'm there." I _didn't_ realize I should be putting slack in the leash when Jak's grip isn't full, though. I'll have to remember that for next time. Wayne wants the decoy to work Jak up high, and let him counter up high, rather than on the ground. I don't know why. 




> When the decoy slips the sleeve, run the dog, if the dog is thrashing, put your hand under the dogs chin and calm the dog petting over their head.


I asked about whether we should start doing the sit and hold with him a couple of weekends ago, but my TD said no, we'd continue choking him off it as soon as it is slipped. Again, I don't know why.


Great observations and suggestions from both of you!!


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

Every trainer has their own bag of tricks, as Andres put it  As long as there's a method to the madness and it works for the dog then great. Like I said, he looks good!


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## Andres Martin (May 19, 2006)

> Kristen...
> You are teaching your dog to become chewy...YOU ASK HOW:


By letting him chew on the sleeve after he's "won" it. Once he has it...he should either carry it, hold it, or BE IN THE PROCESS OF LOSING IT.

NO FREE CHEWS...EVER.



> He's also moving towards the end of the sleeve as its being fed to him.


 Your decoy is feeding the sleeve at the wrong time...and in the wrong position. He should feed it by pulling the sleeve off with his "other" hand, so the end of the tip is never close to the dog's mouth, and only when the decoy needs to reward the dog FOR THE SPECIFIC goal you're after.



> The handler should be a post, when the dog bites, you stand in one spot, let the decoy and the do the moving, I see you walking around following your dog with the leash. Also, when the dog is on the sleeve, pull the line tight as you can. ... if the dogs grip isn't full, let slack in the line and the decoy makes the grip full ON THE GROUND, fight the dog on the ground (4 legs on the ground I mean), when the dog makes the grip full then pull tight again,


If the handler's a post, the dog will learn to pull. If the dog is taught to move forward that's what the dog will do. The agitation process is a fluid one. You should not pull on the leash as tight as you can...unless you're pulling a dog off a BITE SUIT. You should keep firm tension on the leash in the beginning. Countering with the dog's four paws on the ground...in the beginning. Follow your dog carefully, as the decoy walks backwards, so the dog learns to move forward into the bite. Don't train a beginning dog with so much distraction around you. You'll miss important opportunities as a handler because you will be LESS ABLE TO BUILD FRUSTRATION.

<= $0.02


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

Andres Martin said:


> > Kristen...
> > You are teaching your dog to become chewy...YOU ASK HOW:
> 
> 
> ...


Ok. How do I get it away from him quicker, then, to keep the chewing to a minimum? When it's slipped, I am supposed to immediately choke him off the sleeve, which I try to do (the helper wasn't supposed to slip it the way he did the first time, but he's a different helper than we usually have because our regular helper was delivering a dog to Neil Roden, so he didn't know how we had been working Jak), but as you can see, it takes a minute before he lets go, and it's during that time that he's chewing and whining and holding it with his paws, etc. Is there another way I can get him off of it quicker?


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## Andres Martin (May 19, 2006)

In the first video, Kristen, as soon as the decoy feeds the sleeve, do a carry or hang the dog...immediately. What happened wrong there was that you let the dog take the sleeve to the ground, rebite badly on the ground, and then you pulled him up and started choking him off. Ideally, as soon as the decoy feeds the sleeve, do a carry. Initially, have the decoy run with the dog, holding the sleeve so there is some tension...or have the sleeve attached to a leash. Run the dog, making sure he does not chew. As soon as he starts chewing, hang him up. Regrettably, most decoys are fat, lazy and slow. :lol: :lol: :lol: 

In the second video, YOU handled well. The decoy gave the sleeve as a reward for a shi++ie rebite. In that situation (bad bite on a sleeve), hang the dog off the sleeve while it's on the decoy. Have the decoy look away, and have your dog's four paws on the ground if necessary. Reward with the sleeve, only the bites YOU WANT TO SEE the dog give!

Some additional tips: You need to give your dog a bit more space, and place your feet sideways so you have better stability. Don't lean forward, as you will just get pulled along. Stand sideways, bend your knees some, move without stomping behind your dog. The leash should be like a rubber band at first...the tension doesn't disappear. As far as how much tension...it depends on what you're doing. Slack in the line only happens when your dog is learning to counter, and when your dog is already quite secure in his bitework, up close and at a distance. You wrote somewhere that your trainer wants the dog to counter up high...and that's fine, but your dog should be doing pursuits before that. MOVING FORWARD! Teach your dog to move into the bite, as opposed to pull on it. To do this, take a look at some French Ring videos of dogs being taught to bite. The decoy is always moving backwards...the dog is always moving forwards.

Finally...it almost HURTS for me to see a good dog like yours, loosing intensity due to insufficient frustration buildup, to having someone idly standing by chatting to you about what to do, to having another dog immediately up close. That dog should be pulling you off your feet, Kristen. His intensity for a bite should leave your hands begging for soothing relief. If it's prey you're after, your dog should be chasing the heck out of the decoy.

Kristen...GET THE INTENSITY LEVEL UP...UP...UP!!!!!


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

Andres I think you and I are on the same page, but either I don't explain it fully or you key in on points that I forget to make or don't make well on a message board. And attaching a leash to the sleeve and having the decoy run with the dog helps alot, especially with chewing or dogs who don't naturally carry their prey.


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

Andres Martin said:


> In the first video, Kristen, as soon as the decoy feeds the sleeve, do a carry or hang the dog...immediately. What happened wrong there was that you let the dog take the sleeve to the ground, rebite badly on the ground, and then you pulled him up and started choking him off. Ideally, as soon as the decoy feeds the sleeve, do a carry. Initially, have the decoy run with the dog, holding the sleeve so there is some tension...or have the sleeve attached to a leash. Run the dog, making sure he does not chew. As soon as he starts chewing, hang him up. Regrettably, most decoys are fat, lazy and slow. :lol: :lol: :lol:


You're absolutely right that in the first video, everything sucked. This helper wasn't our usual helper, so he didn't know that we weren't giving Jak the sleeve, and so he slipped it as soon as Jak bit, and I wasn't ready for it because that's not what we've been doing. So, yeah, that was just bad all around. I totally get what you're saying about that performance. :lol:




> In the second video, YOU handled well. The decoy gave the sleeve as a reward for a shi++ie rebite. In that situation (bad bite on a sleeve), hang the dog off the sleeve while it's on the decoy. Have the decoy look away, and have your dog's four paws on the ground if necessary. Reward with the sleeve, only the bites YOU WANT TO SEE the dog give!


Yay! I actually did something right! :mrgreen: It's hard, because I'm not actually the one in charge of what's being done. The TD is standing next to me giving instructions to me and the helper, and basically I'm just along for the ride and trying to learn as we go just from listening and observing. I don't know the reasons behind many of the things he does, and he's not that great at explaining them. He's the type that knows what he's doing, and why he's doing it, and that's all that matters. He's not so great at explaining the why's, and I'm sort of timid about asking because I don't want him to get frustrated with me. 




> Some additional tips: You need to give your dog a bit more space, and place your feet sideways so you have better stability. Don't lean forward, as you will just get pulled along. Stand sideways, bend your knees some, move without stomping behind your dog.


I really try hard to do this  I KNOW what you just told me is what I need to be doing, but I struggle with it. I have for several months - right Jerry?! :lol: It's getting especially harder as Jak gets older and stronger. I usually wear gloves, and I forgot them, so I was struggling with the leash, too. 



> it almost HURTS for me to see a good dog like yours, loosing intensity due to insufficient frustration buildup, to having someone idly standing by chatting to you about what to do, to having another dog immediately up close. That dog should be pulling you off your feet, Kristen. His intensity for a bite should leave your hands begging for soothing relief. If it's prey you're after, your dog should be chasing the heck out of the decoy.
> 
> Kristen...GET THE INTENSITY LEVEL UP...UP...UP!!!!!



With our regular helper, we do a lot of pass-by's, where Jak _just_ misses the sleeve, and then the helper hides behind the blind and peeks out at Jak to get him to bark, and when he barks a few good barks, the helper comes back out and either does another pass-by or gives him a bite. That helper is more 'in tune' to what Jak is doing, and works him better, IMO. Jak barks a lot more when I first take him out of the crate and as we are heading over to the blind.

We've always worked Jak with at least one other dog nearby; even when he was on the pole. Not quite sure why. 




> attaching a leash to the sleeve and having the decoy run with the dog helps alot, especially with chewing or dogs who don't naturally carry their prey.


Our regular helper suggested this a few sessions ago, but the TD still said no, we'll just keep choking him off. NO idea why.



Do you think not doing any bitework for a few weeks would benefit him? 

The good news is that he didn't growl on the sleeve this weekend. The past two weekends he was growly on the sleeve, and I think it's because of playing with Gypsy with toys, so when they're together, I put all the toys up and that seems to have fixed the problem of him growling on the sleeve, at least for now.


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

I would actually work the dog more often if possible, it's difficult to see a dog improve when you're only working them once a week... there is a fine line between burning a dog out and not working them enough. If you have the opportunity to work several times a week then it helps you see the dog improve, but workouts are always short. For the first 2 months I worked with my current trainer, I would drive 40 minutes to him, give Cujo 1 bite, then that's it... because he was only giving 1 good bite, his 2nd and 3rd would suck, so since we want to only practice high intensity positive workouts and not let the dog practice bad behaviors, we kept the sessions short enough to where he'd only get the chance to do well, if his first bite was bad we'd try for a 2nd to make up for the poor performance on the 1st, but if his 1st was good he was done for the day. The rest of my time was filled up with decoying and letting Lÿka watch the training and socialize. Now that Cujo's improved, I work both my dogs as often as I have time for, sometimes that's 4 times a week, sometimes it's once or twice.

I think it's important for a handler to understand what's going on in a dogs head, it helps you manipulate the dog better from the handlers side when you know what the decoy is expecting, so if there's any way you can get your TD to explain the whys behind the how's then it will benefit you alot, my trainer automatically likes to explain everything he's doing to me because he's training me to be his decoy. Learning to decoy is a huge plus in training because you can be more in-tune with what the decoy wants from you when you're on the handling side. Unfortunately not everyone is cut out for it, I've seen some horrible decoying that makes you wonder if the guy's even aware of what he's supposed to be doing :lol:


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## susan tuck (Mar 28, 2006)

Also Kristen, get yourself a pair of soccer shoes (they have cleats). Women don't have the upper body strength of men & this will help.


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## Andres Martin (May 19, 2006)

> We've always worked Jak with at least one other dog nearby; even when he was on the pole. Not quite sure why.


 I don't see anything in your dog that would lead me to believe your dog is benefitting from having another dog nearby. YOU, on the other hand, frequently look over at the other dog instead of focusing on your own!!! :lol: :lol: 
If you can...work the dogs individually.



> Do you think not doing any bitework for a few weeks would benefit him?


 Yes, it could. Get an agitation harness, tie him up (carefully...ask someone how, get a shock absorber), and have him just watch from a distance of 60 or 70 meters for two sessions. You should be within view of your dog...but don't let him know you're actively supervising. Let HIM think. I can't tell you for how long you should let your dog watch, because I don't know your dog and his reactions, nor do I know what goes on in a typical bitework session. You'll have to ask someone that knows your dog for an opinion on this matter.

Give him a bite on the third session. If you decide to do this, let us know the outcome.

BTW, there may be NO clear benefit...but there certainly is NO cost. :lol: :lol: 
...so, give it a shot.


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## Woody Taylor (Mar 28, 2006)

Mike Schoonbrood said:


> The handler should be a post, when the dog bites, you stand in one spot, let the decoy and the do the moving, I see you walking around following your dog with the leash.


Yeah, I learned this two weeks ago when I stepped in slightly and slacked up the line while Annie was in a lunge. Wasn't thinking. TD put it simply to me: "That's how people get bit." :lol:


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