# Fear Period litter?



## Haz Othman (Mar 25, 2013)

So I had the chance to observe a well known breeders litter recently they are about 9 weeks. Ill say both parents are awsome dogs and are titled. The stud has produced many good dogs. Anyways went to see the litter on their 9th week or so. I understand that some pups have a fear period right around this time to about 10 weeks. 
The breeder was very happy with the litter said they were very similar to one another not a lot of digression in drive all had solid nerves and been in several environments etc. 

Anyways one pup gets brought out to the field as someone is buying it. She hops out and starts exploring but she seems a tiny bit hesitant. The breeder immediately notes this even though its suttle and says its the beginning of her fear period that she has shown 0 environmental sensetivity to this point. The buyer who I know decided that he trusted the breeder enough to take her and ofcourse the breeder guarentees his pups so if there are issues when she matures she can be replaced. Breeder said he picked that pup out for him because she was more aloof then the others and he liked that for protection work.
Anyways talked to the buyer yesterday said he has had the dog for a few days and its been displaying some fear towards things like stairs new surfaces etc. Nothing extreme but he says as per the breeder he is going to keep her away from anything that can startle shock her for the next couple weeks.
Keep in mind the dog was put in a crate for about 3 hours prior to us seeing her then driven to the buyers home which is also quite a distance.

Again the parents are top quality and this is actually a repeat breeding. Buyer wouldnt have purchased unless he didnt trust the breeder and heard the great reviews on the last litter. 

So is this common for a fear period? 
If the parents and breeder where known for their quality would you worry?
How would you handle the fear period?
Have you owned or seen dogs stage like this and turn out well?

Obviously this was stressful to the pup taken from the litter put in a car for some hours pulled out then back in to the buyers home everything new etc.


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## patricia powers (Nov 14, 2010)

what you have described here should not have been enough to make the pup "fearful." at least not in my opinion. my new pups have been thru a heck of a lot more than that when they arrive & still coming flying out of the crate in the airport just like they own the joint.  (slick floors, jet engines, strange people & all)
pjp


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Hi:

I don't think you can second guess what the breeder is saying if you didn't see the litter and that puppy previously. I have tested [looked at, observed, yada, yada, whichever term you prefer] on a weekly basis and seen them change week 8. A good breeder will know if their pups go through fear stages at different ages. It comes down to whether you trust the breeder or not. I don't find the crate, travel, different environments significant. Somewhere between 8 and 10 weeks, I've taken mine by car/crate to public environments that are a lot more stimulating than what you described. I've also taken a couple on airplanes for delivery and no change whatsoever as they meet the new people/owners and explore the new environments. If I know they are going through a fear period, I try not to shake up their world. Would I be worried about the puppy? Probably. Depends on how long the behaviors last. The whole "produced other great dogs" thing doesn't mean much to me. I go by what I see in the dog in front of me. Can the puppy turn out fine? Yes. I've had dogs that went through phases turn out great. I've also seen late phases which is why I don't expect much until they are closer to age 3. One of the things you've said that really raises a question mark to me is the concept of the "aloof" puppy as preferred for bite work. For me right now and from what I've seen with dogs lately with environmental issues, this puppy would be suspect for me. I'd have lots of questions as to how the breeder knows that the puppy was fine with change of environment and new things in the environment. If it were a conditioned puppy, then there are all sorts of red flags with this puppy.

T


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## Anne Jones (Mar 27, 2006)

BIG DITTO what Patricia said. 

My female, at exactly 9 weeks old to the day, traveled by plane from the mid west & arrived in the middle of a blizzard here...plane diverted to another airport north of us & then she was bussed down to my airport along with all the passengers on the plane. All this took place within a 17 hour period..from when she left the kennel & arrived here in my hands. It was CRAZY!

She walked out of the crate like she owned the place & wanted to know what adventure was next. Didn't miss a beat & has always been the same. Totally fearless.


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## Haz Othman (Mar 25, 2013)

By reaction I mean on the training field the pup was a bit hesitent at times. But after she checked it out she grabbed a water bottle and played with it. Its when he got home that she started being a bit finicky says she refuses to go down stairs, crys if he is at the bottom and she at the top, startles a bit at some sounds will sometimes leave the room etc. Will go up but not down. Anyways he is just going to watch her for the next 2 weeks I guess if it lasts longer we know theres an issue.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

I had 4 steps that led to my back porch and the first thing I noted when they went outside for the first time at 5.5 weeks is which ones followed me up and down the stairs. Going up is always easier than going down but after they go down once, its conquered. If you think in terms of "aaaahhhhhh, he's just a baby," then you will make all sorts of excuses. Flight with certain sounds doesn't sound great to me either. The fear periods I've seen weren't generalized environmental issues. Usually, mine have been off in a way that I notice in training. I'd probably give him a couple of weeks and then take him somewhere unknown to him and see how he responded to different sights, sounds, & people. I like the ones that don't react and as someone else posted--"fearless" or life as usual. I'm not into the ones that recover but I guess that's better than no recovery. My latest experiment is to raise one that I noticed had environmental issues at age 14 weeks. This was a "take her and raise her over the winter and see how you like her" sorta things in one of my weaker moments. My suspicion is that it is something she will always have and it will effect her with competing. She will be the first and last that I will personally have with this issue. But we will see how she is after age 3. If puppies are a gamble, I'd rather gamble on the ones that have what I want by week 7 or whenever I see them.

T


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

What breed is this?

I would ask what the pups in the prior litter were like at this age, especially any that I knew personally as adults. See if this is typical for this line/combination, and how the owner's handled it, how the dogs matured, etc.

I used to be "hard core" about nerves in pups, show a weakness and you are out of here. I still have little patience for it personally but I've seen to many pups over the years that I would have put right back in the crate and shipped back to the breeder if I'd been the new owner, and the pups turned out to be nice adults. In some cases adults I would have happily owned. I remember one that showed up, I saw it after the new owner had it for 2-3 days. Pup is hiding behind the owner, won't come out to socialize for food or toys, etc. I'm thinking "crapper". Same dog went on to compete at the highest level in its sport and is now working the streets as a police dog. I've seen the same with other dogs, as pups either socially and/or environmentally fearful, not just mildly so, as adults successful competitors at local, regional, national and even international levels.

Best place for the owner to start is asking the breeder about the previous litter.


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## Haz Othman (Mar 25, 2013)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> What breed is this?
> 
> I would ask what the pups in the prior litter were like at this age, especially any that I knew personally as adults. See if this is typical for this line/combination, and how the owner's handled it, how the dogs matured, etc.
> 
> ...


GSD Czeck with some WG here and there. From what he says she isnt super fearful just more hesitant at times he has never actually seen her tuck her tail just act cautious about some stuff then either engage or walk away but its only been a couple days. He says he will be worried if in a couple weeks its the same thing. The pup isnt afraid of people or other dogs, I did see that. She went off and played by herself though definitely very aloof for a puppy didnt mind getting pet or grabbed just not a velcro dog to be sure. He says she is super quiet in the crate one of the quitest dogs he has had so far. I remember the breeder saying she had been out and over all sorts of surfaces before without any sign of hesitation. Ill have to ask about the previous litter I heard they were good some even got purchased in German apparently. Ill see what I can find out. 

Breeder was saying he has seen dogs ace the puppy test at 8 weeks end up nervy and vice versa and he was quite confident in the consistency of the litter.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Ask people who have raised puppies from that breeder and even from that breeding pair or pedigree combination. But really, as for the puppy in question, only time will tell at this point.

T


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## Frank Hutto (Dec 12, 2007)

I owned a pup that went through a short fear period between 3-4 months, but after maybe 3 weeks he was completely stable. He stayed that way and was totally stable in any new environment and with people as an adult. I also had another pup that was environmentally bomb proof, outgoing around everybody, and had INSANE amounts of drive. It would not be an exaggeration to say she would be one of the pups you see on YouTube that makes your jaw drop. Then around 7-8 months she went through a fear stage and never completely got out of it, even by 2 1/2. Both pups were from good lines. 

I did notice a difference in how the fear manifested itself in these pups. The fear/spookiness in the one that overcame it was always triggered by something. By that I mean he would be totally fine, but then _"insert some random stimulus"_ would spook him. He also would generally recover, though, not every time. The one that didn't overcome the fear period, had more of a "I'm scared of the outside world" type of fear. Anytime I took her somewhere new, or even some places she'd been to a lot, for the first 5-10 minutes she'd act like she was just waiting for something to get her. Even once she'd settle, that fear could be triggered very easily. I do think the genetics are the deciding factor, so I don't know whether that distinction means anything, but in the other dogs I've seen pull through and the others that haven't, I could draw a similar distinction in how the fear manifested. 

I have a couple of more stories I could mention, but I think that those two stories show the culmination of my experiences, which is: sometimes a fear period is an indication of how the dog will be as an adult and sometimes it isn't. I think Kadi's post hit the nail on the head.

So for me, I don't worry too much about a pup that gets a little spooked by something random here or there. Now if the pup is generally scared of the world, that does raise a red flag for me at least.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

a pup that is a little hesitant out in a new big field after a 3 hour car ride, that wont run up a new particular set of stairs, in and of itself to me is not a huge concern for me personally, but something to keep mindful of.

I like the way Frank put it, and that really sort of fits my experiences as well, if talking about pups with more serious issues than a little hesitation when first bought, or whining at some stairs...

I have got some pups home from picking them up that I wanted to return immediately after taking them out of the crate in the car after a long first car ride for the pup.
Almost all of those pups had no real issues, a couple did have issues though for sure.


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

What I would say mirrors Kadis experience. I have seen a number of dogs who were a little suspicious of people and or objects that totally outgrow it and were good dogs. I would still prefer to not see those behaviors and would prefer not to breed to the ones who were a little spooky as I tend to think they will throw pups that act like they were as pups.


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

Christopher Jones said:


> would prefer not to breed to the ones who were a little spooky as I tend to think they will throw pups that act like they were as pups.


I think this is part of the problem also. People see the adult and not the pup and sometimes aren't told what the dog was like as a pup. Either it just isn't mentioned, or it's flat out denied since nobody wants to hear super stud or dam actually had some issues as a youngster. Or the current owner doesn't even know what the dog was like as a pup, having gotten the dog as an adult. Or they do know what the dog was like as a pup, but what they don't know is how that dog was raised, so they are unable to duplicate the final results even when the pup really is a "chip off the ol'block"


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

I think people would be better off testing a puppy once (or not at all) making their pick and then working with the puppy. Forget about testing and evaluating it every other week. Socialize the hell out of it. Expose it to everything and if it reacts a little?
Use a little desensitization techniques, instead of giving up and wanting to replace it.


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## Colin Chin (Sep 20, 2006)

Thomas Barriano said:


> I think people would be better off testing a puppy once (or not at all) making their pick and then working with the puppy. Forget about testing and evaluating it every other week. Socialize the hell out of it. Expose it to everything and if it reacts a little?
> Use a little desensitization techniques, instead of giving up and wanting to replace it.


Hi Thomas,
What kind of desensitization techniques you employed ? Can share a little here ? Thanks.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I don't look twice at pups that have "fear issues".


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Bob Scott said:


> I don't look twice at pups that have "fear issues".


Bob, would you label a pup that shows some minor hesitation in a new environment or a pup that might whine at the bottom of some strange stairs, a pup with "fear issues"?

granted things could be better than that, but I personally would need to see more things than that to label a pup as having fear issues...

Not saying what you were meaning either way, but curious..


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Joby Becker said:


> Bob, would you label a pup that shows some minor hesitation in a new environment or a pup that might whine at the bottom of some strange stairs, a pup with "fear issues"?
> 
> granted things could be better than that, but I personally would need to see more things than that to label a pup as having fear issues...
> 
> Not saying what you were meaning either way, but curious..



That's a hard call but I wouldn't like it. Whining at the bottom of the steps often means it wants to try just haven't figured it out yet. I don't see that as fear per se. I would have to agree about seeing more of the pup before labeling. 
To many yrs with terriers. The evil little bassids look at life as one big challenge. I've rarely seen one that shows anything but a "go for it" attitude.
I liked absolutely everything I saw in my older GSD's litter. That look determines if I even want to test them. After that I still put them through the paces before selecting. Narrowing it down was so close that I selected based on color. :-o 8-[:-$ :grin: 
I didn't select my younger GSD based on I wanted a Male and he was one of two and the breeder kept the other male. He's a nice, fun dog for us but to handler soft for me. Again, to many yrs with terriers.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Bob Scott said:


> That's a hard call but I wouldn't like it. Whining at the bottom of the steps often means it wants to try just haven't figured it out yet. I don't see that as fear per se. I would have to agree about seeing more of the pup before labeling.
> To many yrs with terriers. The evil little bassids look at life as one big challenge. I've rarely seen one that shows anything but a "go for it" attitude.
> I liked absolutely everything I saw in my older GSD's litter. That look determines if I even want to test them. After that I still put them through the paces before selecting. Narrowing it down was so close that I selected based on color. :-o 8-[:-$ :grin:
> I didn't select my younger GSD based on I wanted a Male and he was one of two and the breeder kept the other male. He's a nice, fun dog for us but to handler soft for me. Again, to many yrs with terriers.



the neighbors just got some kind of little terrier pup...things probably 6 months old or so, prances around dancing on its toes down the street when the little kid walks him around with no leash tail nice and high...

I was thinking he might be trouble


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## Haz Othman (Mar 25, 2013)

Thanks for the info folks this has been informative. I guess in the end its a crapshoot..lol.


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## Thomas Barriano (Mar 27, 2006)

Colin Chin said:


> Hi Thomas,
> What kind of desensitization techniques you employed ? Can share a little here ? Thanks.



gunfire example:


I start with a Dollar Tree cap pistol. A hundred shots while heeling or doing other OB or playing tug. Then someone shooting a 22 at a distance and then gradually closer. Eventually introduce gunfire during a flee attack.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Joby Becker said:


> the neighbors just got some kind of little terrier pup...things probably 6 months old or so, prances around dancing on its toes down the street when the little kid walks him around with no leash tail nice and high...
> 
> I was thinking he might be trouble



Some of the working terrier folk will tell you the high set tail shows a lot of what's in the dog. I agree with that. Low set tail or fine bone usually tells me a dog isn't going to be as bold as I like to see. 
No leash at 6 months with a terrier sounds like they may have a handle on it. By that age they have usually shown their colors as who's listening to who.
I had two Border terriers. They are easier to get along with around other dogs and people then most. Their tail is carried at the 1 o clock position. The ones with the really high set tails are "generally" higher strung then what's correct for a Border. 
All muy other terriers , excepting one Kerry blue, had the high set tail and were wound tighter then the proverbial drum. That Kerry was also more laid back then average.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Bob Scott said:


> Some of the working terrier folk will tell you the high set tail shows a lot of what's in the dog. I agree with that. Low set tail or fine bone usually tells me a dog isn't going to be as bold as I like to see.
> No leash at 6 months with a terrier sounds like they may have a handle on it. By that age they have usually shown their colors as who's listening to who.
> I had two Border terriers. They are easier to get along with around other dogs and people then most. Their tail is carried at the 1 o clock position. The ones with the really high set tails are "generally" higher strung then what's correct for a Border.
> All muy other terriers , excepting one Kerry blue, had the high set tail and were wound tighter then the proverbial drum. That Kerry was also more laid back then average.


Bob...Ill have to check him out more closely..
supposedly they have had him for months but if that is the case, they must be letting the dog do its business in the house on some pads or something, cause I have only seen it twice, both times with no leash, with kid, who is about 8...i just know he prances nice and tight, looks good, and not sure about his tail set persay, but carries the tail well and is a good lookin little dog, solid yet thinner and refined..hopfully he doesnt get eaten by the big giant pitbull that lives behind them, that keeps getting of of his property and making his way onto the other side of the block.


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## Katie Karhohs (Oct 23, 2011)

I'm wondering about my GSD....3.5 months now. Was completely fine, but for the last 2 weeks he started barking and growling and hackled up and anybody walking by outside the apartment door, hackeled up at a beachball 20 yds away in some grass. He is totally friendly if someone comes up to pet him, but goes balistic if he sees an old woman walking up. Is this a fear period? He was friendly with dogs also but now tries to attack them


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Katie Karhohs said:


> I'm wondering about my GSD....3.5 months now. Was completely fine, but for the last 2 weeks he started barking and growling and hackled up and anybody walking by outside the apartment door, hackeled up at a beachball 20 yds away in some grass. He is totally friendly if someone comes up to pet him, but goes balistic if he sees an old woman walking up. Is this a fear period? He was friendly with dogs also but now tries to attack them


you say he tries to attack other dogs...is this onleash? and will he actually attack another dog if allowed loose with one?


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## Katie Karhohs (Oct 23, 2011)

on leash, he goes into nasty barking. off leash he is pretty good. I know there's a difference btwn on leash and off, but it's weird to me that he was fine on leash, and now isnt. also taken to chasing cars...ugh


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