# Wilderness SAR, Recall/Refind



## Kevin Cramer

I was just wondering how many of you that train in wilderness SAR use a bark alert verses a recall/refind. For those of you who use a recall/refind, can you give me a brief outline of how you go about training it?


----------



## Jennifer Coulter

I use a bark alert. It is just what works for me!

Main reason being the bulk of my work is in avalanche, not wilderness and digging (to the source) is our only acceptable alert. Dog is not allowed to leave the source. 

I taught a bark alert for summer for consistancy because he can stay at source. If this leaked into winter work and he digs and barks at the same time, so be it. But if he started doing a refind I would be hooped.

The other wilderness handlers here tend to use a recall/refind. I will let them explain how they teach it :grin:


----------



## Melody Greba

My first wilderness dog did a refind alert.
Our FEMA dogs must do a bark alert. My FEMA K9 also bark alerts in doing wilderness search problems too, but I haven't chosen to field him for wilderness searches. In our area, I wouldn't always hear a bark and he ranges r-e-a-l-l-y far. I prefer the refind for many reasons in wilderness.


----------



## Mary Lehman

Hi Kevin. All my wilderness dogs do a refind - so far that's 6 of them. I have a FEMA dog that does a bark and hold, but I haven't really used her for wilderness missions.

We start with the recall/refind in training from day one. Old way used to be have the handler/subject run off and the dog just gets praise/reward at first find, this is done for some time. If the dog has the drive to go for anyone start it right away.

Example: Have the subject do a short (only 25-30 feet) runaway behind a bush. Send the dog immediately as the subject is disappearing. As soon as the dog gets there, call him back immediately, don't let him linger. When the dog gets back to you, it's imperative that you have some sort of indication for him to tell you he's found someone - a jump on you, a bark at you, etc. I like to give him a small treat when he comes back and performs the prescribed indication - that can be phased out pretty quickly. 

As soon as the subject hears you tell the dog 'Show me!' have them call the dog back waving his favorite toy, with you running in tow. When the dog returns to the subject he is immediately rewarded by the subject. It is then your job to just stand there like a post, Yes, it's hard. ALL of the play/praise MUST come from the subject, not you. This is very important. There is some controverso on this, but I find, over the past 15 years of doing this, that is the best. No handler rewarding, not even verbal, especially at the beginning. You will take the focus off the best part of the search for him.

Do at least 3 in a row in the same place so the dogs doesn't have to deal with new distractions on each problem. Consistency is the key to getting this perfect. Never test your dog, call the dog both ways for several months of this exercise at different distances, terrain, etc. In other words, don't set him up to fail, if you call him every time for a few months, with every problem he will get it as they get longer as well.

I would suggest that you teach your dog a 'paws up' command or a 'speak' command before you initiate your recall/refind training. If you try to teach them during the recall/refind training you have just added another piece to the puzzle for the dog to figure out.

That, in a nutshell, is a very basic way to start. I hope this helps.

What type of dog do you have? Where are you located? What group are you with?


----------



## David Scholes

Mary, great post.

I just started the speak command this week and have been wondering how to do this type of training. Very good explanation. In a couple months I'll have to bribe/find someone to give me a hand with this.


----------



## Mary Lehman

Hey David. Give us a call and come down to Ogden and play.


----------



## Kevin Cramer

Mary,
I don't currently train in SAR. SAR was my first interest when getting into dogs but I had a great opportunity to handle a Schutzhund dog so I trained in Schutzhund for a while. I'm just thinking about the future and what I may want to do.


----------



## Melody Greba

David:

Some people have had success teaching the bark alert for the speak command but it there is also some dog temperament types that only relate to the command as an obedience type behavior. Not to say that teaching the word command with the behavior isn't important but in the end some of the most successful bark alerts come from teaching it in drive. 
The downfall of some handlers teaching the bark alert as a bark and treat exercise is that when the dog is taxed and tired, you'll end up with a stare instead of the behavior that you intended to teach. 

When a dog learns the bark alert in drive, he'll dig very deep to pull it out because he has a very determined attitude that his reward will come and he's learned that remaining fixed and focused doing what he knows is right, will get him what he wants. 

There are breed character differences that play into all of this.


----------



## David Scholes

Melody Greba said:


> David:
> 
> Some people have had success teaching the bark alert for the speak command but it there is also some dog temperament types that only relate to the command as an obedience type behavior. Not to say that teaching the word command with the behavior isn't important but in the end some of the most successful bark alerts come from teaching it in drive.
> The downfall of some handlers teaching the bark alert as a bark and treat exercise is that when the dog is taxed and tired, you'll end up with a stare instead of the behavior that you intended to teach.
> 
> When a dog learns the bark alert in drive, he'll dig very deep to pull it out because he has a very determined attitude that his reward will come and he's learned that remaining fixed and focused doing what he knows is right, will get him what he wants.
> 
> There are breed character differences that play into all of this.


Thanks Melody.

I think I'm teaching it in drive combined with the command and clicker. I use the object of her hatred... my wifes mini mouse angel christmas decoration. Right now she only barks at an animal that will not herd (in her view) properly and this ugly monster. 

http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f9/finally-found-helper-9272/

I'm now trying to convert her to bark in other situations by having another person hold the monster while I give the command then wean away the monster. She's finally starting to bite her ball again after issues with teething so I'll start using her desire for that too. 

Any other ideas from anyone?


----------



## Konnie Hein

Melody Greba said:


> David:
> 
> Some people have had success teaching the bark alert for the speak command but it there is also some dog temperament types that only relate to the command as an obedience type behavior. Not to say that teaching the word command with the behavior isn't important but in the end some of the most successful bark alerts come from teaching it in drive.
> The downfall of some handlers teaching the bark alert as a bark and treat exercise is that when the dog is taxed and tired, you'll end up with a stare instead of the behavior that you intended to teach.
> 
> When a dog learns the bark alert in drive, he'll dig very deep to pull it out because he has a very determined attitude that his reward will come and he's learned that remaining fixed and focused doing what he knows is right, will get him what he wants.
> 
> There are breed character differences that play into all of this.


100% agreed. 

When I did wilderness, I used a bark alert too because that is what my team required. Several of the team members were also on the FEMA team (which also requires a bark alert), so it made sense for our team. It wasn't really a problem in northern Indiana and southern Michigan.


----------



## Melody Greba

"I think I'm teaching it in drive combined with the command and clicker.... Right now she only barks at an animal that will not herd (in her view) properly and this ugly monster." 

David:

What I am suggesting about building the bark from drive is... whatever the reward that you will use, the dog should demand it out of frustration. Frustration whine will turn into a bark, and a bark will turn into more barks. But the key to all of this is the reward must be built into an insatiable appetite for it.

Basically with a puppy you build the value of the reward before asking for anything. When the reward is highly prized by the dog, then you withhold it for the behavior that you want. Set the dog up, so he vocalizes.

Clicking can also mark it at this point, but if you teach the bark as an obedience command of one bark, click, reward.... then that is an obedience exercise and not building in drive.

Additionally for general information, another handy behavior to use for a refind is the "bump". The dog comes back and deliberately targets you with his nose or feet and leads you back to the victim. This is also a very effective communication system for a dog, even under the stress and strain of a long search under difficult terrain or weather.


----------



## Konnie Hein

I think I posted this video before, but it goes nicely with what Melody is saying. In this video, I was attempting to demonstrate training the bark in drive and training it out of obedience. My timing isn't perfect, but I think it gives the general idea. The first segment is training the bark through obedience and the second is training him in drive.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IdAKNhSasxU


----------



## David Scholes

Melody & Konnie, That helps make it clearer. Looks like I need to build more frustration for the toy. She's finally starting to play tug with her ball and string again... almost killed it while she was teething. Sure appreciate the help!


----------

