# Bloodlines and SAR



## Sandra King

Which lines in particular pass on the hunt drive, in German Shepherds. 

I know about Gildo vom Koerbelbach and even though he's not that popular, Olko vom Baerenfang (and the O litter in general) passes it on too. Yoschi von der Doellenwiese, Fero, Lord vom Gleisdreieck as well as Uwe Kirschental. Those are the popular ones but what DDR lines pass it on? 

Are there any other bloodlines I've overlooked or didn't recognize? I am not that educated in DDR and have no idea about Czech lines. So I appreciate any help in this matter


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## Nancy Jocoy

I believe that trait was always attributed to Mink -


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## Sandra King

Mink vom Haus Wittfeld? 

You can barely find a dog without Fero and Mink nowadays anyways. I am just wondering if there might be dogs, that are not as popular that pass it on too.


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## Melody Greba

I can't imagine any working gsd not possessing strong hunt drive.


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## Sandra King

Me neither but apparently there are GSD's that only possess prey drive but lack Hunt Drive. 

I prefer the whole package though


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## Melody Greba

Then I think finding out what lines are not panning out, is worthwhile. 

Out of 28 yrs of breeding, only one litter that we bred and I can think of, did not produce consistent strong working characteristics. And the bitch was bred to different males, produce well every time except with this male. A male that particiapated in the BSP, an Aly son. 

I think it is a rarity for a working line gsd to not produce normal hunt drive that is capable of doing scent detection.


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## Brian Anderson

Sandra a friend of mine does SAR with a GSD and has for several years. He mentioned the family line to me in conversation but I didn't retain it. I will ask him again. He swears by them. Could be the same one mentioned here I just don't remember.


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## Nancy Jocoy

I have seen dogs with over the top prey drive but not really any hunt drive of note. 

Much of the guidance I have recieved from SAR folks is to look to people like Julia Priest at Sontausen who breed with scentwork in mind and also use some of the old herding lines. I don't think you can call schutzhund tracking much more than obedience work. Maybe FH, maybe some of the advanced AKC titles.

Then the individual dog - I think Manfred Heyne (sp?) said out of a litter bred for herding, maybe one dog is truly going to excel at that - maybe it is teh same for dogs bred for scentwork. 

I would rather have a dog that can pace himself for 2-3 hours than one who will go crazy looking for odor and burnout in 30 minutes.


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## Melody Greba

Nancy Jocoy said:


> I don't think you can call schutzhund tracking much more than obedience work. Maybe FH, maybe some of the advanced AKC titles.


Are you talking from perspective or experience?


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## Anna Kasho

Sandra King said:


> Mink vom Haus Wittfeld?
> 
> You can barely find a dog without Fero and Mink nowadays anyways. I am just wondering if there might be dogs, that are not as popular that pass it on too.


The two I had, had Mink/Crok linebreeding on the father's side. It meant nothing when looking at the indivitual dogs. One could trail me, search an area and find whatever I threw out there, the other was doing footstep tracking naturally (with no training) and utterly sucked at actually searching for anything.


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga

Sandra King said:


> Which lines in particular pass on the hunt drive, in German Shepherds.
> 
> I know about Gildo vom Koerbelbach and even though he's not that popular, Olko vom Baerenfang (and the O litter in general) passes it on too. Yoschi von der Doellenwiese, Fero, Lord vom Gleisdreieck as well as Uwe Kirschental. Those are the popular ones but what DDR lines pass it on?
> 
> Are there any other bloodlines I've overlooked or didn't recognize? I am not that educated in DDR and have no idea about Czech lines. So I appreciate any help in this matter


Except you plan to breed i don't think you should bother about lines, just test the individual dog. Like someone said the average GSD will do well in this area. Its not like looking for civil dogs for patrol work, my mutts at home have great potential for tracking....i guess.


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## Sandra King

Oluwatobi Odunuga said:


> Except you plan to breed i don't think you should bother about lines, just test the individual dog. Like someone said the average GSD will do well in this area. Its not like looking for civil dogs for patrol work, my mutts at home have great potential for tracking....i guess.


Well it matters to me and I like looking into the lines. I know quite a bit about West German lines but the Hunt Drive is something most Schutzhund people don't really bother about. Yeah, a good working dog should have the capability but it's not something that is actively tested for.


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga

Sandra King said:


> Well it matters to me and I like looking into the lines. I know quite a bit about West German lines but the Hunt Drive is something most Schutzhund people don't really bother about. Yeah, a good working dog should have the capability but it's not something that is actively tested for.


Well that's ok. Its just that i don't hear most k9 officers complaining they can't find good dogs for scent work so i guess its not a common problem. You many want to look at those in KNPV , the scent work there is pretty good.


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## Nancy Jocoy

Melody Greba said:


> Are you talking from perspective or experience?


AKC tracking I have done - schtuzhund I have not. From talking with schutzhund folks I know it is more step to step and does not allow quartering. I still don't think that is a test of hunt though. I want to see the dog searching for scent (for hours) in the abscence of the target odor, not just following it when theya re on it..

And when the police want a single purpose detection dog, they often go with labs. I just prefer the working temperament of a herder.


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## Melody Greba

Nancy Jocoy said:


> AKC From talking with schutzhund folks I know it is more step to step and does not allow quartering. I still don't think that is a test of hunt though.


Based on experience from both disciplines: SAR and over 2 decades of sch., if european gsds were not held to standard for breeding, you would not have the workability that you have today. And that standard is predominately maintained from protection sport titles. 

The proof is in the market that most gsds used in USA's LE are imports. While many labs are used in single purpose scent detection (cheaper and less of a visual offense to the public), if the need is dual purpose which many LE depts require, then a mal or gsd is acquired and they are from sport titled import lines. 

Just as one of my husband's first dogs(mid 80's), became Sch3, sold to a sheriff's dept and had many long successful tracks leading to apprehensions. Those tracks were easier for the dog because it was much more natural tracking and motivational for the dog compared to the analytical grind of sport tracking where precision is points and concentration to do footstep to footstep is mentally fatigueing and without good hunt drive, the dog becomes disinterested.


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## Adi Ibrahimbegovic

If I was on the same quest as you to find DDR or czech lines to produce same traits, I'd look for male and females that got FH2 titles or RH2, or have been used as a dual purpose and had offspring that achieved the same or similar. then go from there and see where it leads...



Sandra King said:


> Which lines in particular pass on the hunt drive, in German Shepherds.
> 
> I know about Gildo vom Koerbelbach and even though he's not that popular, Olko vom Baerenfang (and the O litter in general) passes it on too. Yoschi von der Doellenwiese, Fero, Lord vom Gleisdreieck as well as Uwe Kirschental. Those are the popular ones but what DDR lines pass it on?
> 
> Are there any other bloodlines I've overlooked or didn't recognize? I am not that educated in DDR and have no idea about Czech lines. So I appreciate any help in this matter


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## Jim Delbridge

Ok, going to get myself in probably hot water for this, but just gotta say it.
Regardless of breed lines, always test the litter for what you want.
Schutzhund is about tracking, not trailing. SAR is about trailing, not tracking.

Most L.E. officers get stuck with what their departments buy for them. They do the best with what they get.

If you want to trail, test bloodhound litters, they are much better at it than any GSD. I've watched a lot of GSDs test in trailing. What was a struggle for them was a "no brainer" for the bloodhounds. Choose the best dog/tool for what you want to do, not the breed you like to force into the job you fantasize about.

If you want to test hunt drive with puppies, simply toss a fragrant piece of food into heavy grass and see how long the puppy sticks with it to find the food. If the puppy gives up, you don't want it. You can get someone to sweat up a t-shirt the day before and toss that into tall grass. See if the puppy pursues to source. It's not rocket science, yet most handlers trust the breeder implicitly and, sorry, that's a fatal mistake for most dog handlers. Why get a so-so dog with a great pedigree when you can find a specialist that rocks at what you want to do. The pedigree should be utilized for health issues only. The scent work is a roll of the genetic dice regardless of past trails/certifications/etc.

Very respectfully and with only the best intentions,

Jim Delbridge


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## Sandra King

Melody Greba said:


> Based on experience from both disciplines: SAR and over 2 decades of sch., if european gsds were not held to standard for breeding, you would not have the workability that you have today. And that standard is predominately maintained from protection sport titles.
> 
> The proof is in the market that most gsds used in USA's LE are imports. While many labs are used in single purpose scent detection (cheaper and less of a visual offense to the public), if the need is dual purpose which many LE depts require, then a mal or gsd is acquired and they are from sport titled import lines.
> 
> Just as one of my husband's first dogs(mid 80's), became Sch3, sold to a sheriff's dept and had many long successful tracks leading to apprehensions. Those tracks were easier for the dog because it was much more natural tracking and motivational for the dog compared to the analytical grind of sport tracking where precision is points and concentration to do footstep to footstep is mentally fatigueing and without good hunt drive, the dog becomes disinterested.


Yeah, but we all know what happens to dogs that are not interested in searching if their owners really want them to search. They make them search and those dogs will still, eventually end up as stud dogs or brood bitches, on the market. 

I too have a little experience with SchH Tracking and the dogs don't need the same hunt drive as in SAR, especially when you want a dog to do Cadaver Work. In SchH you ALWAYS have finds. The dog never ends up, not having a find, plus, 90% of the time, it's food that makes a good headstart and everybody will tell you that you've got a real problem if your dog isn't as food driven as he needs to be to be a good tracker. 
Yeah, it's possible but not as easy to train a tracker via a toy. 

When I first started tracking with Indra I was told that she isn't a good dog because she's just not as fooddriven and that she wasn't interested in toys either. Are you frickin kidding me? 
Yeah, she might not have a super high food drive but not toy driven? She was ten weeks old, was on a four hour car drive to get to the training field, then had to spend another three hours in the car before they let me take her out to track and it was a hot day on top of it and we all know how much of an attention span a puppy has. 

She did not show any food drive at all that day and she was literally written off on scene. We continued to track on our own but she's really not as interested in the SchH tracking as I'd like her to be. Now Air Scent is an entire different ball game. She'll search for hours. She's got a great prey and hunt drive and she's very easy to read on top of that. 

I have a high confidence in my dog when it's about Airscent but I am nowhere near as confident when it's about tracking. She naturally uses tracking when we go out training but SchH tracking is really not her cup of tea and she doesn't enjoy the work nearly as much as she enjoys the SAR work.

On top of that, you don't have to have a prey driven dog at all to train tracking. All you need is a highly food motivated dog...


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## Melody Greba

Sandra King said:


> I too have a little experience with SchH Tracking and the dogs don't need the same hunt drive as in SAR, especially when you want a dog to do Cadaver Work. e continued to track on our own but she's really not as interested in the SchH tracking as I'd like her to be. Now Air Scent is an entire different ball game. She'll search for hours. She's got a great prey and hunt drive and she's very easy to read on top of that.
> 
> I have a high confidence in my dog when it's about Airscent but I am nowhere near as confident when it's about tracking. She naturally uses tracking when we go out training but SchH tracking is really not her cup of tea and she doesn't enjoy the work nearly as much as she enjoys the SAR work.
> 
> On top of that, you don't have to have a prey driven dog at all to train tracking. All you need is a highly food motivated dog...


Well Sandra yours and my opinion on drive in wilderness search is opposite. I have seen many adequate dogs do wilderness that would never make a sch dog. Wilderness is natural and fun for the dog with little boundaries to which to live by. If a dog can do sch and has a nice open temperament, then wilderness SAR is a piece of cake. It's actually very fun for the dog. 

I expect strong food, hunt, fight and ball drive in any working/sporting gsd.These are the traits to which to work with, of a good working line gsd so there are no limitations. 

But if you really disagree that the sport has no value in real world application then tell me why most LE K9s in the US come from europe instead of using the typical backyard breeder gsd produced by the pet population.


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## Jim Delbridge

Most LE go with European contacts right now because the AKC breeders created bad hips in the US GSDs and it will take time for that prejudice to go away. It's just not good business to buy a dog whose hips will be shot by the time it's 4 years old.

Jim Delbridge


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## Sandra King

> But if you really disagree that the sport has no value in real world application then tell me why most LE K9s in the US come from europe instead of using the typical backyard breeder gsd produced by the pet population.


Look, I don't think you understand what I am looking for in this topic. 

Every line is different. Every line has different traits. Some are known for great defense drive, others are known for great prey drive but are not as tough & rought and hard as others. Some are known to produce dogs that have over the top prey drive but also produce dogs that are a little on the nervy side and others bring the full package and over the top working dogs where only the sky is the limit. And some have more aggression than others while others have great prey drive but no hunt drive and then you've got those that have more food than prey drive, those that come with great prey but little food drive. 

I've never said that we have bad dogs in Germany. I come from a family of breeders so I do know a little about breeding programs as well. 

However, while SAR requires pretty much the same attributes it also requires something else and that is the Hunt Drive. Bloodlines do matter. It matters what kind of dogs you put together, you can't just put dog a and b together without knowing their traits and history. 

There are so many different lines out there, so many different dogs with different traits and you've got over the top dogs that don't pass their traits on and then you have dogs that don't perform nearly as well as the over the top dog but he passes on the genes from three generations back but nobody wants him because he's not the top dog. 

It's not that simple to say, "Hey... every dog is a good dog because Eurpean dogs are mainly sold into law enforcement." 
NOT every dog is good enough to go into law enforcement, even if the dog comes from Europe. You have to weed through and select to find what you want in a dog and not every line produces great hunt drive, just like not every line produces that great prey drive you were looking for, or not the great nerves or aggression and most of the time, if you know what you want in a dog, if you know the lines, it's much easier to find what you want, however you have to stay openminded to other lines as well because maybe you find that gem out of a breeding program you didn't consider at first. 

And that is something you have to acknowledge, as a buyer, seller and breeder.
Do you know how many breeders there are in Germany claiming the have the best dogs in the world? It's really not that easy to weed through all those super-dogs to find what you want in a dog. And nowadays most people look for colors rather than the traits...


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## Melody Greba

Jim Delbridge said:


> egardless of breed lines, always test the litter for what you want.
> Schutzhund is about tracking, not trailing. SAR is about trailing, not tracking.
> 
> Most L.E. officers get stuck with what their departments buy for them. They do the best with what they get.
> 
> If you want to trail, test bloodhound litters, they are much better at it than any GSD. I've watched a lot of GSDs test in trailing. What was a struggle for them was a "no brainer" for the bloodhounds. Choose the best dog/tool for what you want to do, not the breed you like to force into the job you fantasize about.
> 
> 
> Jim Delbridge


Jim for the most part, I couldn't agree more. Sch is for tracking, trailing is for hounds. But there's a lot of gsds that do a combination of tracking/trailing and do well. But if it were me, and I had to do trailing, I'd get a bloodhound. But not just any bloodhound out of the newspaper, one that came from proven trailing lines and along with low risk for health problems like bloat. Although, I don't think that even the pet BH's are as watered down in work ethic as a lot of breeds.

However, just like lines of bloodhounds that I'd study prior to purchase, I would then evaluate the parents. The gsd is a versatile breed (not every individual is versatile) there are some gsds that are more natural trackers than others. The old Enno/Drigon lines were known for being natural trackers but there was health issues that went along with that. They were also better police K9s due to being more serious. 

The LE depts in the US are reliant on who is heading up their purchasing. Often times this is someone that has come into it, after been in K9 for a couple of years if its a small dept. If they get poor dogs, then let the buyer beware. Some depts have really good dogs. Regardless if they are "throw aways" from europe or the better selected prospects from better vendors, they are still imports for the most part. 

It was many years back when depts would take donations from pet owners with dogs they couldnt handle and try to make a working team out of them. It was not very fruitful and thus, the marketing of gsds and mals for K9s became profitable because they work.

And I agree, this stuff is so common sense.


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## Sandra King

> But not just any bloodhound out of the newspaper, one that came from proven trailing lines and along with low risk for health problems like bloat


So you would look for proofen trailing lines but you wouldn't do the same thing with a GSD for Hunt Drive? 
Because that is what I am looking for. Lines that are proven to produce over the top Hunt Drive.


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## Melody Greba

Sandra King said:


> Look, I don't think you understand what I am looking for in this topic.
> 
> I've never said that we have bad dogs in Germany. I come from a family of breeders so I do know a little about breeding programs as well.
> 
> However, while SAR requires pretty much the same attributes it also requires something else and that is the Hunt Drive. QUOTE]
> 
> Sandra:
> 
> The dogs selected for LE have high ball drive and if they do, they will find it...9 times out of 10. Unless the nerves are poor or if the dog has not been properly exposed to lots of environments. The LE dogs are expected to track and/or indicate drugs or explosives and yes they must have hunt drive to find their valued toy or apprehension suspect.
> 
> Over the last 28 yrs, out of import gsds, I can only think of one, possibly 2 litters that did not possess the proper drives for work. And the work of Wilderness SAR is easier in my opinion than doing a Sch1 on a dog, let alone Sch3. I've certified at a wilderness/cadaver dog 7-8 yrs back and have a federally certified USAR K9 now. Titled several dogs to Sch3. I expect any decently bred working gsd to do wilderness SAR with little trouble.
> 
> However, if you want to know some of the most talented trackers out of schutzhund lines; the lines of old Enno/Drigon were well known for their natural tracking abilities. Also, lines of new would be Pike as these lines also produces excellent scenting abilties for tracking and other scenting disciplines. And yes I agree, some lines are more of a hardship to track than others but it doesn't mean they won't do wilderness SAR, cadaver, bombs or narc work. Because it depends on their ball drive.
> 
> So if you come from a family of breeding...working dogs? What is the kennel name? From what region?It is important to take SAR seriously but it's not that hard for any decent working dog.


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## Sandra King

> The dogs *selected *for LE have high ball drive and if they do, they will find it...9 times out of 10. Unless the nerves are poor or if the dog has not been properly exposed to lots of environments. The LE dogs are expected to track and/or indicate drugs or explosives and yes they must have hunt drive to find their valued toy or apprehension suspect.


There, you just said it yourself. The dogs SELECTED(!!!) for LE Programs. But you don't know how many dogs were passed down by the person that travelled around to select those dogs. 

Trust me, I know the selection program, I've been there and those people turn quite a few dogs down. 

The dogs selected for the program, yes, I would not expect any less and they will have the drive but you have no ideas how much CRAP is produced in Germany. Pretty much just as much crap as good dog material and that is what you have to weed through. 

Usually those people have their connections and they make a phone call and ask for specific traits and your contact will find that dog for you. 

I have that contact too. It's my father. However, I went out and searched myself and I weeded through litter over litter over litter, passing down puppies, young dogs, older dogs, already titled dogs until I ended up at a kennel that works with Juergen Ritzi. I ended up looking for names that I knew from my fathers career because I knew I could trust those people to produce quality working dogs that come with the traits I wanted. 

Just like Law Enforcement Dogs have to be selected, so have SAR dogs, and Schutzhund dogs. Honestly, you make it sound so easy, it's NOT!

It's really not that easy to find the dog that not only fits you, as a handler, but comes with what you want because you have so many people that are trying to get rid of the crap they produced and they will tell you almost any story to get rid of it and you don't want to know how much crap is going to the US claimed to be the Super Dogs. Those dogs go to inexperienced handlers that are brand new and have the money. 
And don't tell me it doesn't happen. You guys did the same thing to us with Quarter Horses. You sold the crap horses, that nobody wanted to those richt Europeans that were dumb enough to believe they hit the Jackpot!


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## Melody Greba

Of course, I said selected. I've been through the selection process too. Have watched selection for others, and have selected for myself. Big Deal! 

Alot of people ruin good dogs and try to get rid of them and make money on their ruins. 

Sometimes it's knowing who is trying to sell the dog...there are lots of scheisters out there on both sides of the ocean. And yes, I know the German's love the western riding horses of America. 

What was that kennel name again?


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## Sandra King

Melody Greba said:


> Of course, I said selected. I've been through the selection process too. Have watched selection for others, and have selected for myself. Big Deal!
> 
> Alot of people ruin good dogs and try to get rid of them and make money on their ruins.
> 
> Sometimes it's knowing who is trying to sell the dog...there are lots of scheisters out there on both sides of the ocean. And yes, I know the German's love the western riding horses of America.
> 
> What was that kennel name again?


So we are literally speaking of the same thing, then. Selection is everything and it always depends what you want the dog for. I guess we can agree that LE, SAR and Schutzhund dogs should come with the same traits and abilities... and in a perfect world that would always be the case. 

Yeah, we do love the American Horses. We've bought five Quarter Horses when I switched to Western Riding back then. They were not the best riding material but they were excellent breeding stock. LOL

The kennel name is * vom Bärenfang. *The best dogs actually went overseas and the USA holds some of the best genetic material out of the breeding program.


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## Jim Delbridge

High ball drive does not equate to a good trailer. 
High ball drive can be used to train narcotics work, explosive work, customs work, and the easier HRD work.

I should note that I have a mutual admiration society going on with multiple top-notch trailers where they are mistified with what my dogs do and I am equally mistified at what their dogs can do. 

Hunt drive is required for trailing and the more subtle HRD work. If I could put blinders on a puppy to test it, I would. You have to have a dog that's ruled by its nose above all else. The eyes only compicate things.

I got to work with a bloodhound in the cemetery in Colorado. The dog had an eye problem where it lost focus after about 3 feet. The handler wasn't sure if the dog was working so had me watch them. The biggest issue was the handler had the dog follow her such that the handler did not see the dog dip his nose ever so slightly and wag his tail as he stepped into each collapsed grave. I convinced the handler to learn how to walk backwards and the dog was quickly alerting accurately on graves. That his eye sight was poor was actually an advantage in this instance. 
Note: One should realize that in this cemetery that there was commonly four graves within less than two feet of each other. I demanded the handlers force their dogs to pick a grave to alert on rather than at the interesection of four graves. With raised expectations came good results.

Jim


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## Sandra King

Jim Delbridge said:


> *High ball drive does not equate to a good trailer.
> High ball drive can be used to train narcotics work, explosive work, customs work, and the easier HRD work.
> 
> I should note that I have a mutual admiration society going on with multiple top-notch trailers where they are mistified with what my dogs do and I am equally mistified at what their dogs can do. * *
> 
> Hunt drive is required for trailing and the more subtle HRD work. If I could put blinders on a puppy to test it, I would. You have to have a dog that's ruled by its nose above all else. The eyes only compicate things.*
> 
> I got to work with a bloodhound in the cemetery in Colorado. The dog had an eye problem where it lost focus after about 3 feet. The handler wasn't sure if the dog was working so had me watch them. The biggest issue was the handler had the dog follow her such that the handler did not see the dog dip his nose ever so slightly and wag his tail as he stepped into each collapsed grave. I convinced the handler to learn how to walk backwards and the dog was quickly alerting accurately on graves. That his eye sight was poor was actually an advantage in this instance.
> Note: One should realize that in this cemetery that there was commonly four graves within less than two feet of each other. I demanded the handlers force their dogs to pick a grave to alert on rather than at the interesection of four graves. With raised expectations came good results.
> 
> Jim


Agreed. And all I am looking for is the knowledge of some people that actually have more experience in which lines produce that Hunt Drive since most Schutzhund people do not actively test for that drive and just because a dog can track, doesn't mean he's got that hunt drive that you are looking for.


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## Melody Greba

Jim says" High ball drive does not equate to a good trailer. "

Yes, I agree and did not mean to suggest that it does.


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## Nancy Jocoy

I understand a well bred GSD should have everything but different breeders seem to make some different decisions about what aspects are important to them. And a lot of folks seem to treat tracking as a necessary evil and not as a fundamental part of schutzhund. 

If I want a dog to compete I would going to somebody focused on that. If I want a dog for scentwork I will go to someone who is breeding, titling, and working dogs in scentwork. Of the several I talked with who are doing this and succesfully placing dogs with SAR and LE handlers - "old herding lines" constantly pops up. 

Somewhat higher threshold, very high biddability, off switch, while still having working drives and excellent nerve strength. And a lack of dog agression. A GOOD breeding should have these things [guess you could negotiate the threshold] but a lot of dogs bred specifically for sport do not. 

To me it is a lot to ask a dog to work 2-3 hours searching for a specific scent in the abscence of that scent, break and work another 2-3 hours. 

Why does FEMA test for hunt drive by doing a progression of throws if a tracking title would suffice?


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## Sandra King

Melody Greba said:


> Jim says" High ball drive does not equate to a good trailer. "
> 
> Yes, I agree and did not mean to suggest that it does.


Is Abel vom Reichental your dog? I can see that Abel has Nirko vom Baerenfang which actually means he's got all the good stuff, from Uwe, to Caro and it's not easy to find a dog that still has Nirko in the third Generation I can also see Uran vom Wildsteiger Land, Orkan vom Wolfendobel, Arek von der Fasanerie brings some nice stock, Fero vom Zeutner Himmelreich. That boy is LOADED! Like I said, the US has some of the best genetic stock. 

I like the overall pedigree, it's a nice, very nice pedigree and he would fit very well on my bitch. 
Knowing the traits you know what you can expect and I would be surprised if he didn't produce some nice working stock including the desired hunt drive.


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## Melody Greba

Nancy Jocoy said:


> Why does FEMA test for hunt drive by doing a progression of throws if a tracking title would suffice?


This is a std hunt test for someone looking to select a dog for scent detection. Done by many people in scent disciplines. 

A tracking title is a title only suggesting that this dog is a good working prospect. However, the biggest problem with gsds in USAR is not a lack of hunt drive it's their ability to deal with the difficulty of hostile rubble. This gets most of them. 

LE does not care what the pedigree of a dog is, it is simply based on selection and ability to work. If you've talked with many LE handlers, they couldn't even tell you who their dog is out of.


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## Melody Greba

Sandra King said:


> Is Abel vom Reichental your dog?


Abel vom Reichtal is my dog. High loyalty, extreme drives in all areas, excellent tracker, not dog aggresive, but high reactivity. Very big dog, not something that I like as a working dog. 
He's an over the top dog. Excellent in ob, normally excellent desire to track and loves the ball but very extreme in the prot phase-typical of his father Gunner Conneforde, a Pike son. Abel could have went either way in sch or police. He has only been bred once and I have not seen the grown puppies. He needs to be bred to a very solid nerved female that is not extreme also. He's a lot of dog and this is not just my comment.


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## Sandra King

> LE does not care what the pedigree of a dog is, it is simply based on selection and ability to work. If you've talked with many LE handlers, they couldn't even tell you who their dog is out of.


Because most LE's in the US is not the one selecting the dogs. I wouldn't care either if I was a cop waiting for a dog. I'd simply hope I'd get a well bred, reliable dog that has what it takes but if I was the one selecting those dogs, I would look into the Pedigrees and build up a relationship with breeders that are known to produce those dogs and sell them for a fair price and can refer you to other breeders that actually have that dog that is just what you look for and for sale. 

It went like that all the time. Breeders would refer to my parents, my parents refered to other breeders, my father would look, search and test dogs. One time he did a friend a favor. It was about a DDR dog. He went with him to look at the prospect. All they did was to walk to the kennel. The dog was still kenneled, he looked at the dog and was like "Thanks, but no thanks." and his friend was like "Don't you want to see the dog work?" and my father said "I've already seen enough. I don't need to see the dog work to know that he doesn't have what it takes." and he was right. The dog was not suitable for the job. 

That is how it can go... and many many dogs were turned down, even back then and from what I can see, it hasn't changed much. And if you are dealing with LE, you can't afford to have a bad reputation and sell crap.


----------



## Erik Berg

The swedish workinglines are breed in many cases with dogs competing in trials including much nosework for many generations, not SCH-tracking but articlesearch, searching for people and tracking with less regard to precision. Also many dogs that are working for the police or military where the dogs must be able to hunt and track for long time. So if you are in the market for a good dog for nosework I don´t think you find lines with more of this in other places. Some example, a militarydog with lots of police/military-dogs in the pedigree, and a civilan stud that is pretty popular for the moment,
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=424213
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=474891


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## Sandra King

Thank you Erik. That is very interesting and informative. Especially Korad Kurants Nemo is very interesting. He's actually Fero free.


----------



## Oluwatobi Odunuga

Like i mentioned earlier, except you plan to breed the dog i doubt the lines matter. There are so many breeds(mutts included) that can do SAR tracking and within the GSD breed its not that hard to find a good tracker. L.E dogs are coming from europe because police want dogs that can apprehend suspects not because the american bred dogs cannot track. A bigger problem with US bred dogs is finding those with the right drives to do patrol work.
Sandra i think you're bothering too much, JMO


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## Nancy Jocoy

I know of some GSDs that do tracking/trailing for SAR but more that work offlead doing air-scent searching-it seems a breed particularly suited to working offlead and ranging out to a nice working distance.

Others I have talked with in SAR for years *have* discussed the lack of sport dogs with adequate hunt drives and the other big issue - nerve strength - something people don't consider to be particularly important, but it is.


----------



## Gillian Schuler

Nancy Jocoy said:


> I have seen dogs with over the top prey drive but not really any hunt drive of note.
> 
> Much of the guidance I have recieved from SAR folks is to look to people like Julia Priest at Sontausen who breed with scentwork in mind and also use some of the old herding lines. I don't think you can call schutzhund tracking much more than obedience work. Maybe FH, maybe some of the advanced AKC titles.
> 
> Then the individual dog - I think Manfred Heyne (sp?) said out of a litter bred for herding, maybe one dog is truly going to excel at that - maybe it is teh same for dogs bred for scentwork.
> 
> I would rather have a dog that can pace himself for 2-3 hours than one who will go crazy looking for odor and burnout in 30 minutes.


Nancy, the spelling is correct. Manfred Heyne

Sara, Google him, you won't be disappointed!


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## Sandra King

Nancy Jocoy said:


> I know of some GSDs that do tracking/trailing for SAR but more that work offlead doing air-scent searching-it seems a breed particularly suited to working offlead and ranging out to a nice working distance.
> 
> Others I have talked with in SAR for years *have* discussed the lack of sport dogs with adequate hunt drives and the other big issue - nerve strength - something people don't consider to be particularly important, but it is.


I think it's very important. Especially when a dog is out there for hours and lets face it, the training might all be great fun but there is a point where searching becomes not only physically but also mentally challenging and that is when a dog needs not only the hardness, endurance, hunt drive but also the nerve strength. 

The same goes for the FH. The FH can be tough. It's not comparable to the SchH tracking. There are FH trials that are out of this world and the dogs need the nerve strength and mental capability to do that job because it takes everything they got. A lot of people think it's a piece of cake for the dog... but if you are really into it and you go to some of those trials (i think one of the toughest out there is near the Alps) it's really hard on the dogs.


----------



## Jim Delbridge

I've had the same experience testing litters over the years. Even if the pedigree is full of scenting champions, the litter is going to produce 0-2 scent wunderkind. Yet, both breeders and buyers alike convince themselves that out of a litter of 8 that there will be 8 top notch scenting dogs. It's just not genetically possible.
You start with the breeds known for scent work, i.e. hunt drive. You narrow down the other traits that you are willing to accept with the breed to get the hunting drive you require. You look at the positive aspects of each breed that will help in your task. 
Do you think it's an accident that I work Airedales? Before GSDs became popular, the ADT was the worker bee. The breed was created with go-to-ground abilities and the Otterhound (think sesame street version of a bloodhound) was a major component of the breed. Airedales are known as thinking dogs which many translate to many as hard to train. I consider GSDs too willing to please me and Labs are too adept at manipulating the rules to their advantage. While with all the breeds, the show people have really stunk up the working lines, they still exist. Even with those breeding programs, genetic rolls of the dice can create the occasional scenting dog if a potential buyer knows what to look for.
I am a decent trainer, but I diligently audition puppies till I find one that has all the right stuff I need to create a decent working partner.

The point of all this is those breeders that get on the lists and suggests they have a great breeding and there's only two puppies left are marketing to those that don't know any better. So-so SAR dogs of any specialty are the norm for many reasons, but this is a heavy contributor. I have watched way too many dog handlers spend thousands of dollars for a puppy from a super breeding only to watch another dog go down the toilet because it was a square peg being forced into a round hole. Sometimes it's the handler sucks. Sometimes it's the dog sucks. Sometimes both. The only time a DECENT dog team results is when the handler/trainer is decent AND the dog is decent. Plus, the handler gets out of the dog's way to let it do its job. I've spent from $350 to $1000 for working dogs and all have turned out to make me look good because they were auditioned at an early age and I got exactly what I wished for (be careful with that). The $1000 dog was/is no better healthwise or demeanor wise than the $350 ranch stock. I invested in the more expensive dog just to see if I got more for my money. ....nyah... The fact that half of his line came from suggested SAR lines worried me as I'd seen dogs of that line and every one wanted to be anywhere but searching. The other half of the line are working hunters and that's probably his saving grace.....but, it's all the genetic roll of the dice.
If this debate is all about who to breed to your bitch in hopes you find one great puppy, it's an expensive experiment. The minimum number of litters that I've ever auditioned was three litters to find the stock I felt was the right mix to make an HRD dog that will find the remains reliably and make me look good.

But, you spend your thousands and convince yourself you have a winner as perspective can be a major influence. My dogs have to prove themselves to me every day and I to them. When I worked this large cemetery last month, each group coming in demanded to get to watch Murphy and I work. I resisted whenever I could because he and I don't work like the typical SAR team. I go to great lengths to not cue or (more importanly) not to be accused of cueing my dog. As this was a very target rich environment, there was not reason for me to allow the dog to create his own grid. He and I moved about the cemetery very quickly and each time he alerted AND targeted, I threw a flag between his front paws. This was a marker for him to go on and find more. I would start by grabbing a bunch of flags, counting what I grabbed, and going till I'd run out. It was typical for me to grab 20-to-30 flags. Murphy and I would mark that many graves in about 20 minutes. When one has to mark 100's of graves in a couple of hours, one develops ways to work with the dog to get it done and the dog still has fun. As with what I demanded of the new dogs, if Murphy would target at the strongest scent between four graves then I demanded he choose and many would percieve I was almost nagging in the way I did it.....as in I was challenging a thinking Airedale, throwing down the gauntlet. Murphy would quickly choose and we'd move on, many times moving on would mean he'd go to one of the next of the four graves. I was fine with that.

I work each of my dogs pursuant to their personality. With Murphy, it's always challenging. With Thorpe, it's more cheerleader/coach right now as his confidence is not there yet. All I'm doing is managing the talent. The dog is the scent expert, not me.

If you want a "decent" or "exceptional" working dog, audition the puppies and don't worry so much about the pedigrees. Remember that pedigrees are created by breeders to get more bucks for their stock as that's they way it's been done for centuries. Many breeders will jump through so many hoops to get that title and feel lucky to get it. I'd only want puppies where the pedigreed stock was being used weekly if not daily in that venue because otherwise it would drive the breeder crazy as it was obsessed with the work. Except for the "expensive experiment", all the parents of the puppies I ended up with had parents that were running hogs that night or were out on walk-about hunting coyotes that threatened their sheep. I got to see all the parents. The scars told me a lot more than the structure.

Just what I've gained from my experiences( definitely not going to make me any friends with the breeders),

Jim


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## Nancy Jocoy

I know it comes down to the individual dog; all the breeding does is stack the deck a little.


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## Sandra King

I absolutely agree. A breeder might have that one litter once in a lifetime where every dog turns out to be one heck of a dog but most breeders can only dream about that litter. And sometimes you don't even have "that" dog in the litter. It's always a gamble, however there are lines that have proven to produce great dogs and where you have a good chance to get a good dog even if it's only the "upper middleclass" dog, it's still better and more then many people expect and can handle.


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## Jim Delbridge

Sorry, what you just described is a fantasy. Usually when I see what a handler describes as "too much dog", I see a frustrated dog with a handler that isn't paying attention. A high energy dog is not necessarily what is needed for the job. Yet, handlers fantasize about getting a high energy dog having no clue what it means.
In this same group in the cemetery was one of those dogs that barked incessantly when it was in scent. In a cemetery with 1100+ collapsed graves, the dog was almost always in scent. I took the dog team to an area still full of graves, but not visible to most. I asked the handler to put a flag where she thought there was a grave. She'd place a flag and I'd say, "no, that's between four. Try again." The handler became frustrated and rightly so. She had a worthless dog in it's current state.
I worked the handler working the dog and would not let the handler reward the dog in any way while it barked incessantly. The dog quickly became frustrated with the handler and started doing nose touches to communicate, "it's here, stupid!" I allowed the handler to quickly verbally praise the dog any time it did a target on a grave. The dog quickly went from barking all the time to bark-nose touch where upon the handler was instructed to reward this and the handler could go back to the easy area.
Some would call this dog a high drive/high energy dog. It was simply frustrated as it had not been given the tools to do the job it was expected to do.

There are NO complete wunderkind litters...I can say this absolutely. There are litters of nice dogs that could each do a different job better than the rest of its litter and possibly better than most other dogs in its vocation, BUT it takes a solid handler/trainer choosing the RIGHT dog out of that litter to allow that do to excel to the best it can be in what genetics have created it to be with a handler that doesn't stifle it.
Sorry, taking the middleclass of any great litter is setting yourself up to be a so-so dog team. You would have a large group to belong to who would most likely succeed in dumbing down certifications standards as NASAR is quickly working towards.

Establish what you must have in a dog (of the breed you think is best for that vocation) and audition dogs to find the best dog for the job AND you. If you want to breed that dog, that's on you. It's a free country. Don't trust a breeder to pick for you. Don't trust another handler or trainer to pick for you. If the dog flops, it should be on you and no one else to blame. I've found this tends to rid many of the excuses they have prepared when they produce a so-so dog. 

Jim


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## Sandra King

Jim, you are reading to much into it. Technically we are speaking of the same thing but from what I've seen over here, with quite a few people who think they are so experienced, only owning and training two dogs in their life... they don't even know what real drive is. They already have problems to handle the dog they have and that dog doesn't even have moderate drives and is nervy on top of it. Dogs that should never be in SAR. They don't see a good dog that is right in front of them... let alone, they could handle them. 


And what I ment with "THAT" litter is an over the top, exceptional outcome where for example five out of seven dogs break all expectations and the other two are still good but just not as good as those other five and I've seen those litters. They do exist. Kirschental Kennel had those litters, Baerenfang kennel had those litters, Koerbelbach had it too because the selection was much tougher and people looked for different traits in the dogs and there were some very serious working dog breeders out there where good wasn't good enough. They thrived for more than just good, they thrived for excellent and if a dog wasn't close to what was expected they got weeded out and went into families. Only the best were titled and bred with those breeders and that is why they constantly produced high quality dogs. Of course they had dogs that did not have the quality they thrived for but you could be certain that even those dogs were better quality than most dog handlers, that only competed on local level, ever had in their hands.


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## Jim Delbridge

Sandra,
For the dogs I've purchased, I've felt that I've always gotten the pick of the litter. I walk away from a litter unless a puppy meets ALL my criteria. The last puppy I bought, the breeder basically told me she was glad I picked him as he was the biggest pain of the bunch. I just smiled and nodded. The breeder had done SAR in the past..........

Those other puppies might have been the pick for something else, but for a HRD expert, I got the only one.

For those lines you listed, I challenge you to do this. Audition a litter from each line regardless as to whether you can have a puppy or wish to purchase one. Simply audition the entire litter at 5-7 weeks of age. If the puppies all grade identically, I'd suggest your testing is not thorough enough. For each puppy, try to estimate what the best vocation would be for that dog as it matures and what handler would best suit the dog. Some handlers do adjust to the dog like I do, but most expect the dog to adjust to them. Try to estimate which dogs will be soft and which will be hard. Try to estimate which ones are the smartest by problem solving. For some applications, a smart dog is actually a detriment. Try to estimate which dogs will be the most forgiving to the handler for being a complete idiot as we all are at one time or another.
If you need an e-collar, determine which dogs will be biddable.

A good dog team is marked by the dog and handler come to be able to predict what the other needs. A good HRD dog finds graves even when his handler doesn't think there are any there, turns his back on the dog and walks away, and only turns back when the dog gives it's alert in such a way that the handler knows it's committed to a source. A good trailing dog acquires scent and drags the handler down the trail even when the handler is still talking to the IC.......the handler responding with "I guess we've started. Please mark the time." A good bomb dog finds the briefcase bomb left outside the courthouse stairs the handler is climbing to go report in.
People ask me when do I expect my dogs to be working. My answer is when they get out of the vehicle.
Course, my dogs don't think its work. It's what they were born to do....random genetic dice and all.

No litter, no matter how great the breeding program, will produce more than 2 (at the most and that's reaching) puppies that will fit you and obsess about the job you need it to do. The breeding program should provide you with 100% guaranteed healthy stock that has possibilities of what you are looking for. The breeding program gets that litter an invite to the audition, nothing more. That so many think so much of their litters.......well, that's nice as it means the drop-outs will have somewhere to go.

Jim


----------



## Sandra King

> For those lines you listed, I challenge you to do this. Audition a litter from each line regardless as to whether you can have a puppy or wish to purchase one. Simply audition the entire litter at 5-7 weeks of age. If the puppies all grade identically, I'd suggest your testing is not thorough enough. For each puppy, try to estimate what the best vocation would be for that dog as it matures and what handler would best suit the dog. Some handlers do adjust to the dog like I do, but most expect the dog to adjust to them. Try to estimate which dogs will be soft and which will be hard. Try to estimate which ones are the smartest by problem solving. For some applications, a smart dog is actually a detriment. Try to estimate which dogs will be the most forgiving to the handler for being a complete idiot as we all are at one time or another.
> If you need an e-collar, determine which dogs will be biddable.


Of course they are not the same. I never said that all those dogs are the same. I said that all dogs broke all expectations but that doesn't mean that they are the same. Every dog has a different personality and different strengths. One might be the top dog in tracking, the other one at Schutzhund, yet the other one might be a top dog for SAR and yet another one does great with LE. But overall, every dog succeeded and was right for the chosen job. And there are litters like that out there. I've seen those litters, they are once in a lifetime litters and extremely rare but they do happen and most of the time they have two or three stud dogs that will pass on their traits and if you go back, it's always the same kennel names that produced top notch dogs because of their selection and those kennel names live on until today and you can literally find most of those kennel days in todays pedigrees. 

Some of the kennelnames from back then are: Bungalow, Karthago, Koerbelbach, Maineiche, Kirschental and those are not always the same dogs, it's different dogs throughout the Generations that produced some of the worlds best working stock out there. 

Koerbelbach dogs i.e Torro, Troll, Gildo, Gary, Mike
boese Nachbarschaft dogs that can found throughout Generations are: Troll, Timmy, Quasy and Xato

And I've never had to use an e-collar in my life. So far I have not had to use a prong collar either.


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

Jim Delbridge said:


> I've had the same experience testing litters over the years. Even if the pedigree is full of scenting champions, the litter is going to produce 0-2 scent wunderkind. Yet, both breeders and buyers alike convince themselves that out of a litter of 8 that there will be 8 top notch scenting dogs. It's just not genetically possible.
> You start with the breeds known for scent work, i.e. hunt drive. You narrow down the other traits that you are willing to accept with the breed to get the hunting drive you require. You look at the positive aspects of each breed that will help in your task.
> Do you think it's an accident that I work Airedales? Before GSDs became popular, the ADT was the worker bee. The breed was created with go-to-ground abilities and the Otterhound (think sesame street version of a bloodhound) was a major component of the breed. Airedales are known as thinking dogs which many translate to many as hard to train. I consider GSDs too willing to please me and Labs are too adept at manipulating the rules to their advantage. While with all the breeds, the show people have really stunk up the working lines, they still exist. Even with those breeding programs, genetic rolls of the dice can create the occasional scenting dog if a potential buyer knows what to look for.
> I am a decent trainer, but I diligently audition puppies till I find one that has all the right stuff I need to create a decent working partner.
> 
> The point of all this is those breeders that get on the lists and suggests they have a great breeding and there's only two puppies left are marketing to those that don't know any better. So-so SAR dogs of any specialty are the norm for many reasons, but this is a heavy contributor. I have watched way too many dog handlers spend thousands of dollars for a puppy from a super breeding only to watch another dog go down the toilet because it was a square peg being forced into a round hole. Sometimes it's the handler sucks. Sometimes it's the dog sucks. Sometimes both. The only time a DECENT dog team results is when the handler/trainer is decent AND the dog is decent. Plus, the handler gets out of the dog's way to let it do its job. I've spent from $350 to $1000 for working dogs and all have turned out to make me look good because they were auditioned at an early age and I got exactly what I wished for (be careful with that). The $1000 dog was/is no better healthwise or demeanor wise than the $350 ranch stock. I invested in the more expensive dog just to see if I got more for my money. ....nyah... The fact that half of his line came from suggested SAR lines worried me as I'd seen dogs of that line and every one wanted to be anywhere but searching. The other half of the line are working hunters and that's probably his saving grace.....but, it's all the genetic roll of the dice.
> If this debate is all about who to breed to your bitch in hopes you find one great puppy, it's an expensive experiment. The minimum number of litters that I've ever auditioned was three litters to find the stock I felt was the right mix to make an HRD dog that will find the remains reliably and make me look good.
> 
> But, you spend your thousands and convince yourself you have a winner as perspective can be a major influence. My dogs have to prove themselves to me every day and I to them. When I worked this large cemetery last month, each group coming in demanded to get to watch Murphy and I work. I resisted whenever I could because he and I don't work like the typical SAR team. I go to great lengths to not cue or (more importanly) not to be accused of cueing my dog. As this was a very target rich environment, there was not reason for me to allow the dog to create his own grid. He and I moved about the cemetery very quickly and each time he alerted AND targeted, I threw a flag between his front paws. This was a marker for him to go on and find more. I would start by grabbing a bunch of flags, counting what I grabbed, and going till I'd run out. It was typical for me to grab 20-to-30 flags. Murphy and I would mark that many graves in about 20 minutes. When one has to mark 100's of graves in a couple of hours, one develops ways to work with the dog to get it done and the dog still has fun. As with what I demanded of the new dogs, if Murphy would target at the strongest scent between four graves then I demanded he choose and many would percieve I was almost nagging in the way I did it.....as in I was challenging a thinking Airedale, throwing down the gauntlet. Murphy would quickly choose and we'd move on, many times moving on would mean he'd go to one of the next of the four graves. I was fine with that.
> 
> I work each of my dogs pursuant to their personality. With Murphy, it's always challenging. With Thorpe, it's more cheerleader/coach right now as his confidence is not there yet. All I'm doing is managing the talent. The dog is the scent expert, not me.
> 
> If you want a "decent" or "exceptional" working dog, audition the puppies and don't worry so much about the pedigrees. Remember that pedigrees are created by breeders to get more bucks for their stock as that's they way it's been done for centuries. Many breeders will jump through so many hoops to get that title and feel lucky to get it. I'd only want puppies where the pedigreed stock was being used weekly if not daily in that venue because otherwise it would drive the breeder crazy as it was obsessed with the work. Except for the "expensive experiment", all the parents of the puppies I ended up with had parents that were running hogs that night or were out on walk-about hunting coyotes that threatened their sheep. I got to see all the parents. The scars told me a lot more than the structure.
> 
> Just what I've gained from my experiences( definitely not going to make me any friends with the breeders),
> 
> Jim


Boy, I should frame this and send to every breeder who wanted a whopping non-refundable deposit before the litter was even three weeks old. I know in my own litters there was only usually 1-2 puppies that tested out for me. When I stated this and asked what if they didn't have a puppy I liked, their reply was, "This is the way we do it. We choose the puppy and we're very experienced."

Working GSD pedigrees are all over the place with very little up front linebreeding. If you have Yoschy, Fero, Mink, etc. scattered thoughout the pedigree from the 3-5th generation, what predictability value does that have?

Jim, how do you test your HRD/SAR puppies?

Terrasita


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

Jim Delbridge said:


> I've had the same experience testing litters over the years. Even if the pedigree is full of scenting champions, the litter is going to produce 0-2 scent wunderkind. Yet, both breeders and buyers alike convince themselves that out of a litter of 8 that there will be 8 top notch scenting dogs. It's just not genetically possible.
> You start with the breeds known for scent work, i.e. hunt drive. You narrow down the other traits that you are willing to accept with the breed to get the hunting drive you require. You look at the positive aspects of each breed that will help in your task.
> Do you think it's an accident that I work Airedales? Before GSDs became popular, the ADT was the worker bee. The breed was created with go-to-ground abilities and the Otterhound (think sesame street version of a bloodhound) was a major component of the breed. Airedales are known as thinking dogs which many translate to many as hard to train. I consider GSDs too willing to please me and Labs are too adept at manipulating the rules to their advantage. While with all the breeds, the show people have really stunk up the working lines, they still exist. Even with those breeding programs, genetic rolls of the dice can create the occasional scenting dog if a potential buyer knows what to look for.
> I am a decent trainer, but I diligently audition puppies till I find one that has all the right stuff I need to create a decent working partner.
> 
> The point of all this is those breeders that get on the lists and suggests they have a great breeding and there's only two puppies left are marketing to those that don't know any better. So-so SAR dogs of any specialty are the norm for many reasons, but this is a heavy contributor. I have watched way too many dog handlers spend thousands of dollars for a puppy from a super breeding only to watch another dog go down the toilet because it was a square peg being forced into a round hole. Sometimes it's the handler sucks. Sometimes it's the dog sucks. Sometimes both. The only time a DECENT dog team results is when the handler/trainer is decent AND the dog is decent. Plus, the handler gets out of the dog's way to let it do its job. I've spent from $350 to $1000 for working dogs and all have turned out to make me look good because they were auditioned at an early age and I got exactly what I wished for (be careful with that). The $1000 dog was/is no better healthwise or demeanor wise than the $350 ranch stock. I invested in the more expensive dog just to see if I got more for my money. ....nyah... The fact that half of his line came from suggested SAR lines worried me as I'd seen dogs of that line and every one wanted to be anywhere but searching. The other half of the line are working hunters and that's probably his saving grace.....but, it's all the genetic roll of the dice.
> If this debate is all about who to breed to your bitch in hopes you find one great puppy, it's an expensive experiment. The minimum number of litters that I've ever auditioned was three litters to find the stock I felt was the right mix to make an HRD dog that will find the remains reliably and make me look good.
> 
> But, you spend your thousands and convince yourself you have a winner as perspective can be a major influence. My dogs have to prove themselves to me every day and I to them. When I worked this large cemetery last month, each group coming in demanded to get to watch Murphy and I work. I resisted whenever I could because he and I don't work like the typical SAR team. I go to great lengths to not cue or (more importanly) not to be accused of cueing my dog. As this was a very target rich environment, there was not reason for me to allow the dog to create his own grid. He and I moved about the cemetery very quickly and each time he alerted AND targeted, I threw a flag between his front paws. This was a marker for him to go on and find more. I would start by grabbing a bunch of flags, counting what I grabbed, and going till I'd run out. It was typical for me to grab 20-to-30 flags. Murphy and I would mark that many graves in about 20 minutes. When one has to mark 100's of graves in a couple of hours, one develops ways to work with the dog to get it done and the dog still has fun. As with what I demanded of the new dogs, if Murphy would target at the strongest scent between four graves then I demanded he choose and many would percieve I was almost nagging in the way I did it.....as in I was challenging a thinking Airedale, throwing down the gauntlet. Murphy would quickly choose and we'd move on, many times moving on would mean he'd go to one of the next of the four graves. I was fine with that.
> 
> I work each of my dogs pursuant to their personality. With Murphy, it's always challenging. With Thorpe, it's more cheerleader/coach right now as his confidence is not there yet. All I'm doing is managing the talent. The dog is the scent expert, not me.
> 
> If you want a "decent" or "exceptional" working dog, audition the puppies and don't worry so much about the pedigrees. Remember that pedigrees are created by breeders to get more bucks for their stock as that's they way it's been done for centuries. Many breeders will jump through so many hoops to get that title and feel lucky to get it. I'd only want puppies where the pedigreed stock was being used weekly if not daily in that venue because otherwise it would drive the breeder crazy as it was obsessed with the work. Except for the "expensive experiment", all the parents of the puppies I ended up with had parents that were running hogs that night or were out on walk-about hunting coyotes that threatened their sheep. I got to see all the parents. The scars told me a lot more than the structure.
> 
> Just what I've gained from my experiences( definitely not going to make me any friends with the breeders),
> 
> Jim


Boy, I should frame this and send to every breeder who wanted a whopping non-refundable deposit before the litter was even three weeks old. I know in my own litters there was only usually 1-2 puppies that tested out for me. When I stated this and asked what if they didn't have a puppy I liked, their reply was, "This is the way we do it. We choose the puppy and we're very experienced."

Working GSD pedigrees are all over the place with very little up front linebreeding. If you have Yoschy, Fero, Mink, etc. scattered thoughout the pedigree from the 3-5th generation, what predictability value does that have?

Jim, how do you test your HRD/SAR puppies? I raised a litter of puppies and at 2 weeks when the other puppies were whimpering, where is mama, he put his nose to the blanky and tracked her. At 6 weeks, out in the yard, he would cock his head to the ground and listen and then his nose would hit the ground and off he would go for some critter. This was the first puppy I looked at as a tracking/hunting natural. Do you require that they have high object/toy drive for motivation?

Terrasita


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## Nancy Jocoy

Jim gave me some pretty good stuff on that on another thread......certainly welcome to restate it all........I pretty much went back to waiting for a 6-12 month old puppy, the only reason I am not going 18 months is integrating with my other dogs.


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## Sandra King

You know. One thing I don't understand is that we are so desperate about getting all those BYB's with all their crappy dogs, to quit breeding and then we say "Eh, any dog can do the job."

I am sorry but I will not support any BYB by purchasing a dog and may it the best dog I could find on this planet. It's just not going to happen. Those breeders do more damage than any serious, reputable working dog breeder that follows the rules, can. That being said, I wouldn't pay a ridiculous amount of money for a dog either. There is no way I'd pay 5000 Dollars for a year old dog that isn't even OFA'ed yet. 

Anytime a person would come on certain forums and say "Hey, I have this awesome, not titled bitch that isn't health tested either and I am looking for any male to stud her because she is just so awesome." boy that person would be run off the forums instantly. 

But when it comes up to SAR dogs, all of a sudden it doesn't matter anymore. To me it does matter. It does matter where the dog is from, what background the dog has, how he was brought up, imprinted and what kind of bloodlines are in the background. 

Rescues are a different story. I'd certainly take onto rescues but buying from a BYB. NO!


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Sandra King said:


> You know. One thing I don't understand is that we are so desperate about getting all those BYB's with all their crappy dogs, to quit breeding and then we say "Eh, any dog can do the job."
> 
> I am sorry but I will not support any BYB by purchasing a dog and may it the best dog I could find on this planet. It's just not going to happen. Those breeders do more damage than any serious, reputable working dog breeder that follows the rules, can. That being said, I wouldn't pay a ridiculous amount of money for a dog either. There is no way I'd pay 5000 Dollars for a year old dog that isn't even OFA'ed yet.
> 
> Anytime a person would come on certain forums and say "Hey, I have this awesome, not titled bitch that isn't health tested either and I am looking for any male to stud her because she is just so awesome." boy that person would be run off the forums instantly.
> 
> But when it comes up to SAR dogs, all of a sudden it doesn't matter anymore. To me it does matter. It does matter where the dog is from, what background the dog has, how he was brought up, imprinted and what kind of bloodlines are in the background.
> 
> Rescues are a different story. I'd certainly take onto rescues but buying from a BYB. NO!


Who said anything about buying from a BYB or that any dog can do it. It was any dog that passed the SELECTION test. Its great to look at a pedigree and see a sprinkling of popular studs but what does it give you in terms of predictability. What lines, instead of dogs are known for hunt drive? Its always gonna come down to the individual dog selection tests regardless of what's in the pedigree. Is there a commonality among SAR GSD pedigrees? I can think of two breeders on here that have talked in terms of a line--Sue DiCero and the dam line of some of their dogs and now Staatsmacht [sorry for butchering]. There's not enough pedigree discussion to really be able to discern. Besides, I wanna know the sire, dam and grandparents, first and foremost. As for OFA, how many sire dam combinations in working line GSDs do you have OFA hips/elbows. I'm not talking about A Stamps that can be done at a year old. I already know of an OFA DJD I that got an SV Fast Normal. 

Terrasita


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Sandra King said:


> Of course they are not the same. I never said that all those dogs are the same. I said that all dogs broke all expectations but that doesn't mean that they are the same. Every dog has a different personality and different strengths. One might be the top dog in tracking, the other one at Schutzhund, yet the other one might be a top dog for SAR and yet another one does great with LE. But overall, every dog succeeded and was right for the chosen job. And there are litters like that out there. I've seen those litters, they are once in a lifetime litters and extremely rare but they do happen and most of the time they have two or three stud dogs that will pass on their traits and if you go back, it's always the same kennel names that produced top notch dogs because of their selection and those kennel names live on until today and you can literally find most of those kennel days in todays pedigrees.
> 
> Some of the kennelnames from back then are: Bungalow, Karthago, Koerbelbach, Maineiche, Kirschental and those are not always the same dogs, it's different dogs throughout the Generations that produced some of the worlds best working stock out there.
> 
> Koerbelbach dogs i.e Torro, Troll, Gildo, Gary, Mike
> boese Nachbarschaft dogs that can found throughout Generations are: Troll, Timmy, Quasy and Xato
> 
> And I've never had to use an e-collar in my life. So far I have not had to use a prong collar either.


 
Sandra,

You keep referencing the past and you gotta be talking about Kirschental before Uwe and maybe for a little bit afterward. What litters do you see now and who has them.

Terrasita


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## Sandra King

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Who said anything about buying from a BYB or that any dog can do it. It was any dog that passed the SELECTION test. Its great to look at a pedigree and see a sprinkling of popular studs but what does it give you in terms of predictability. What lines, instead of dogs are known for hunt drive? Its always gonna come down to the individual dog selection tests regardless of what's in the pedigree. Is there a commonality among SAR GSD pedigrees? I can think of two breeders on here that have talked in terms of a line--Sue DiCero and the dam line of some of their dogs and now Staatsmacht [sorry for butchering]. There's not enough pedigree discussion to really be able to discern. Besides, I wanna know the sire, dam and grandparents, first and foremost. As for OFA, how many sire dam combinations in working line GSDs do you have OFA hips/elbows. I'm not talking about A Stamps that can be done at a year old. I already know of an OFA DJD I that got an SV Fast Normal.
> 
> Terrasita



Well, what would you call a 300 dollar puppy born on a ranch out of dogs that have no health clearences or titles? I'd call that byb. Not that those are bad dogs but I simply don't support that kind of breeding. 

Yes, I specifically talked about the past dogs because the selection program has been much different than what you see today. Some of the old breeders had some of the worldwide toughest dogs and produced some of the best working stock. It wasn't about points and flashyness, it was about working capability whereas today it's all about the show. While I despise the old training methods, at least those dogs were "real" and not made. 

As for OFA, you won't find OFA in Germany. And yes, the SV can screw it up. You can have a perfectly healthy dog that is given HD and a borderline dog that gets a normal. Sometimes popularity does matter which is why I will OFA my bitch. As long as the chipnumber is on the x-rays the SV will accept the OFA result.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Sandra King said:


> Well, what would you call a 300 dollar puppy born on a ranch out of dogs that have no health clearences or titles? I'd call that byb. Not that those are bad dogs but I simply don't support that kind of breeding.
> 
> Yes, I specifically talked about the past dogs because the selection program has been much different than what you see today. Some of the old breeders had some of the worldwide toughest dogs and produced some of the best working stock. It wasn't about points and flashyness, it was about working capability whereas today it's all about the show. While I despise the old training methods, at least those dogs were "real" and not made.
> 
> As for OFA, you won't find OFA in Germany. And yes, the SV can screw it up. You can have a perfectly healthy dog that is given HD and a borderline dog that gets a normal. Sometimes popularity does matter which is why I will OFA my bitch. As long as the chipnumber is on the x-rays the SV will accept the OFA result.


I've seen $1000 working line puppies with no titles and health clearances on the sire and dam--sorry, A Stamp does't cut it for me--too many noch zuchs and fast normals sprinkled in and you don't know the age the films were done. A $300 ranch puppy born of a line of dogs that have proven themselves through the work and longevity might be equal in gambling on health as noch zuch bred to normal or fast normal bred to normal; and fast normal bred to fast normal with no elbow certifications. Then theres the pimp the pedigree--Dog A bred to Dog B [no health clearances or titles but its full of popular working studs in the pedigree. I think Jim was saying that the number of ideal puppies didn't change whether you had $350 nothing pedigrees or $1500 popular titled stud pedigrees. Ultimately, test the puppy in front of you and go from there. I think from the comments, the type of hunt drive needed from SAR can only be known by a SAR person so you would have to question other SAR GSD owners regarding which dog families have produced dogs they liked in the work. It seems the definition of hunt drive is relative and goes beyond a nose for tracking which is what most sport GSDs do. As for Germany, you are only considering German imports? Acutally, I was hoping you KNEW of current U.S. working families with OFA hip/elbow certs with certain working traits that the puppies typically exhibit and the breeders can tell you more than they bite hard or have over the top prey drive. 




Terrasita


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga

Sandra King said:


> You know. One thing I don't understand is that we are so desperate about getting all those BYB's with all their crappy dogs, to quit breeding and then we say "Eh, any dog can do the job."
> 
> I am sorry but I will not support any BYB by purchasing a dog and may it the best dog I could find on this planet. It's just not going to happen. Those breeders do more damage than any serious, reputable working dog breeder that follows the rules, can. That being said, I wouldn't pay a ridiculous amount of money for a dog either. There is no way I'd pay 5000 Dollars for a year old dog that isn't even OFA'ed yet.
> 
> Anytime a person would come on certain forums and say "Hey, I have this awesome, not titled bitch that isn't health tested either and I am looking for any male to stud her because she is just so awesome." boy that person would be run off the forums instantly.
> 
> But when it comes up to SAR dogs, all of a sudden it doesn't matter anymore. To me it does matter. It does matter where the dog is from, what background the dog has, how he was brought up, imprinted and what kind of bloodlines are in the background.
> 
> Rescues are a different story. I'd certainly take onto rescues but buying from a BYB. NO!


I don't advocate backyard breeding also but i think the average GSD litter will produce decent tracking dogs. Its harder to find dogs with extreme 'fight' drives but i don't think tracking ability/hunt drive is as rare as you are trying to make it seem. Just test the individual dog.


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## Anna Kasho

Oluwatobi Odunuga said:


> I don't advocate backyard breeding also but i think the average GSD litter will produce decent tracking dogs. Its harder to find dogs with extreme 'fight' drives but i don't think tracking ability/hunt drive is as rare as you are trying to make it seem. Just test the individual dog.


There's a separation here. Hunt drive for SAR seems to be persistance in searching in the absence of scent. Tracking is working in scent, following it. If I didn't see the difference for myself I would not think it's such a big deal - however my GSD, Beau, could track me across a field and back following my footsteps without training, but throw a ball 10 yards off into grass and he gave up looking in just a couple minutes. He would check spots where he knew the ball was before, but seemed unable to range out searching where it wasn't. His brother had no problems searching for the ball and finding it, but did not footstep track, ran a trail quickly, nose off the ground. I don't train any tracking, so was just observing what they did...


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## Sarah Atlas

University of PA vet school has started a DNA bank to see if they can establish those genetic traits which make a good sar dog. Aside from the blood work they are doing there is an extensive 
questioneer covering temperment and and traits of other nature.


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## Adi Ibrahimbegovic

You do have a valid point there with that observation.

Sometimes, I too "test" the dogs that way just to see what they would do, no SAR here at all, just mental stimulation - I hurl the golf ball, or any other ball/toy, far and deep into the bushes at random and tell the dog - go find it.

Some dogs do give up after a while, I call them instant gratification dogs. If he is not able to find it quickly, it does give a half ass effort, he goes - eh, screw this, it's not here, I give up, and returns back.

the other dog, will look and look and look and look, and God bless him, will switch tactics - go high, go low, change directions, go in circles, go left, go right, will absolutely not give up for prolonged period of time - till it finally finds it.

The second dog, IMO, appears to have what it takes and it should be tested further for his abilities, with concern of what OP is looking for, I believe. 




Anna Kasho said:


> There's a separation here. Hunt drive for SAR seems to be persistence in searching in the absence of scent. Tracking is working in scent, following it. If I didn't see the difference for myself I would not think it's such a big deal - however my GSD, Beau, could track me across a field and back following my footsteps without training, but throw a ball 10 yards off into grass and he gave up looking in just a couple minutes. He would check spots where he knew the ball was before, but seemed unable to range out searching where it wasn't. His brother had no problems searching for the ball and finding it, but did not footstep track, ran a trail quickly, nose off the ground. I don't train any tracking, so was just observing what they did...


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## Nancy Jocoy

I also don't know if the dog learning to pace themselves and work steady and not in spurts is an inherited or a learned trait. 

I don't know how you select for that other than seeing a dog that will slow down and detail and figure things out when you are testing them.


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## Jim Delbridge

I see a case of conformation prejudice. With Murphy, I asked the breeder (before I'd ever look at the litter) to inquire about previous dogs produced by her lines as to any structural defects. She called the owners from the three previous litters and there were no hip problems. When I spay/neuter my dogs, I always have the hips x-rayed and evaluated. This is for my knowledge up front and an agreement with the breeder that I can return the puppy if the x-rays show any problems. 
On the flip-side, I know many conformation breeders that hedge on OFA certification. Regardless of the pedigree or lack there of, it's caveat emptor.
One can label just about anyone as a backyard breeder. I know many breeders who look good on the website, but go to their place and you'll turn away (or should). I've seen breeders with a great rep that I see their set up and label them as a puppy mill in my own mind and walk away.
I want to see the parents actively working and part of the family. I want to see clean facilities. I want to observe dog people that know their stock and know how to handle the puppies. Being married to a vet, I hear lots of stories where breeders of various breeds come in and tell the vet "how it is and what we're gonna do." Many times such practices are total old wives tales. This is yet another reason that I wish to take a puppy I've located away as quickly as possible. I've dealt with many breeders who tell me up front that they know their puppies best only to have them shocked at the testing results they could watch from a nearby window. The difference is the puppy is now on its own and can react without first surveying the litter for political ramifications and no known safe harbor. The solid SAR prospective is going to percieve this as an adventure while the norm is to find a cave to hide in.

Tarrisita, send me a private mail here and I'll send you a link to my testing criteria on another board. I tend to add additional tests each time I look for a new puppy. The biggest criteria of my testing is the breeder and anyone that's been around the puppies prior to testing can not be present (scent wise) when testing. Each puppy is taken to a new area it's never been in and the testing is done by a stranger. Eliminating known human scents forces the puppy to present an honest reaction rather than run to a known safe harbor. SAR dogs are expected to routinely work in new environments and around strangers.

For some of the comments, tracking is not trailing. Many times observers confuse footstep crushed vegetation for active trailing where human scent is involved. If there is any wind movement at all, the human scent will not be in the footsteps but downwind.

What really cracks me up is people will spend thousands of dollars for an unseen puppy with all the certifications on health. the puppy still develops a health problem and the owner now continues to support their decision by stating issues can still crop up no matter how vigilent one is. I've come across young dogs with obvious genetic health problems and worked with the owner to contact the breeder to 1) suggest both sire and dam be taken out of breeding as this is a recessive issue, but can have dire consequences to the line
2) look into reimbursement or replacement

Multiple times the breeders continued to breed both sire and dam citing this was an anomoly. Multiple times the breeders have offered subsequent puppies from the SAME BREEDING. These were not what Sarah would consider a back-yard breeder, titles, long pedigrees on both sides, etc. Yet, I have more respect for the rancher Murphy came from then those supposedly "doing it the right way." 
GSDs are not the only ones where supposedly the best stock comes from Germany or German lines. I've tested german only lines and I've heard lots of after-the-fact complaints on imported German stock. This isn't an american phenomena, it's a dog breeder phenomena. 


Gonna quit now before I say something I'd probably regret later. It's just not worth it. Handlers deserve the dogs they end up with.

Jim


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## Nancy Jocoy

Jim - I have sure talked to precious few who would let me take a puppy and return it later if there was a problem. I know the standard contract yadyada but it normally boils down to either a discount/refund or a replacement puppy if the dog is dysplastic and they may not have the replacement I want. 

I don't know. It is for sure most police prospects are raised and bought as green dogs, not puppies.

I believe there are a few breeders out there who do detection work themselves and know how to select and raise a puppy for that purpose and sometimes hold one back to grow out either as possible breeding stock or to go into a real working home as they want to show such results from their own efforts. The ones I am talking with have a history of placing dogs into law enforcement and SAR homes.

Still puts the burden on me to evaluate the puppy/young dog as their vision of the perfect dog may not be exactly mine and I am sure there is always some level of kennel blindness.


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## Erik Berg

If huntdrive, nerves and ability to deal with different environments and situations have any genetic bearing at all it makes sense to look for dogs that comes from a background where such things are important. 

By the way, what is the requirement for working as a SAR-dog in US, is there some kind of certification for all US SAR-dogs, or who decides what selection and requirements are needed?


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## Melody Greba

If the breeder doesn't meet your criteria, move on. There's plenty of breeders with the same bloodlines and titled dogs. 

I bought a puppy 2 yrs ago from N.M. and walked away from a breeder in Canada that picks out puppies your puppy, even though I have titled and certified dogs that I've raised. The excuse that she's never had any complaints from buyers. However, funny how one of her dogs is listed for sale on DomesticSales.com

If you don't like the breeder's circumstances, you don't have to buy at all. Move on.


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## Melody Greba

Erik Berg said:


> If huntdrive, nerves and ability to deal with different environments and situations have any genetic bearing at all it makes sense to look for dogs that comes from a background where such things are important.
> 
> By the way, what is the requirement for working as a SAR-dog in US, is there some kind of certification for all US SAR-dogs, or who decides what selection and requirements are needed?


State by state, the requirements are different. Many (and most) handlers do in-house certifications of their dogs. Some do more but alot do not. I've seen many marginal dogs being fielded and this is public knowledge. Dogs from all races. These groups are also very defensive. I visited and trained with one group, one time where the dog's "indication" was coming back and marking on a tree. ~sigh~ really! But they were also "connected" with a govt agency so..............

Some groups have very qualified dogs but it's up to the people, as for mankind this is normal...it's hit or miss. The requirements in my state is the handler has to do a basic search and rescue class, have CPR/First Aid and have a "certified" K9 with a SAR group. 

California is known to have some of the best wilderness SAR standards. 

Many dogs can do wilderness/cadaver and many can do it well. It's mostly people humanizing their dog, running fat pet dogs, and making more talk of their dog than walking the walk in front of others that shows the difference. 

The Urban Search and Rescue in the federal system (FEMA) test is not an in-house test and has a decent evaluation system. And of course we have to obtain most of the same certs as firefighters which includes confined space, trench rescue, haz mat, etc etc etc. Many people do not have immediate success with their first dog in the FEMA system, and have to be more diligent in their selection and training process. The most commonly used and successful breed in the FEMA system is the lab and most come from field-bred lines/breeders.


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## Sandra King

Oluwatobi Odunuga said:


> I don't advocate backyard breeding also but i think the average GSD litter will produce decent tracking dogs. Its harder to find dogs with extreme 'fight' drives but i don't think tracking ability/hunt drive is as rare as you are trying to make it seem. Just test the individual dog.


I am not the one who is disregarding breeding programs 




> What really cracks me up is people will spend thousands of dollars for an unseen puppy with all the certifications on health. the puppy still develops a health problem and the owner now continues to support their decision by stating issues can still crop up no matter how vigilent one is. I've come across young dogs with obvious genetic health problems and worked with the owner to contact the breeder to 1) suggest both sire and dam be taken out of breeding as this is a recessive issue, but can have dire consequences to the line
> 2) look into reimbursement or replacement
> 
> Multiple times the breeders continued to breed both sire and dam citing this was an anomoly. Multiple times the breeders have offered subsequent puppies from the SAME BREEDING. These were not what Sarah would consider a back-yard breeder, titles, long pedigrees on both sides, etc. Yet, I have more respect for the rancher Murphy came from then those supposedly "doing it the right way."
> GSDs are not the only ones where supposedly the best stock comes from Germany or German lines. I've tested german only lines and I've heard lots of after-the-fact complaints on imported German stock. This isn't an american phenomena, it's a dog breeder phenomena.


Jim, I agree with you on a lot of things. I am the first one that will argue about the quality of German breeders from today. Some are nothing but puppy mills with a paint job, and I agree with you that you seriously have to weed through the dogs to find what you want. 

When somebody buys an unseen puppy from a breeder he has never even met personally. That is plain stupid and I hope the buyer learned his lesson. 

As for German stock, I believe I wrote in earlier posts that a lot of crap is sold to the US because people are stupid and think just because the dog is from Germany it has got to be a good dog. 
I've been pretty much writing what you are saying here, in the beginning of the topic. 

However, what I don't agree with is that you make it sound like you can't trust any breeder at all and that there ain't any good dogs out there anymore. That is simply not the truth. 

If you know where to go, if you have the right contacts you can trust blindly, you can get some nice dogs out of it, suitable for the job. 

Go back and read the posts when Melody and I discussed that it's not easy to find hunt drive. 

I know how German breeders are. You've got to be able to weed out the bad from the good. 

However, if your Rancher is a Rancher who has his puppy undergoing medical care, feeds some good food and has a good head on his shoulders that would make a huge difference to me too. But if your Rancher is a Rancher who doesn't even de-worm his pups, where previously a litter died off of parvo because he doesn't vaccinate them either, nope... no way that I'd buy a puppy from a breeder like that, no matter how good that puppy is. There's always going to be another dog...


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## Nancy Jocoy

I imagine some sort of national ceritfication for police dogs will be required before they ask it of SAR dogs.

For live find, it is more of a grab bag. Most of the cadaver dog handlers I know DO ceritfy to at least one national standard such as NAPWDA, IPWDA because, if nothing else, of the possibility of winding up in court.


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## Sandra King

Here, the handler has more requirements than the dog. 

One year with the team, First Aid(Check), Winter Survival (check), Map&Compass(still learning), online NIMS classes (check), DEC Basic course (check), Searcher I (crew boss, not quite there yet). 

And only after you passed the Searcher I (to be a crew boss) you can go for that last certification that will make you an official K9 Team. That is our Teams rules but I like it. Our SAR team has set some pretty good example and standards when it comes up to training and education of Grid Searchers and they want every Team Member to be a Crew Boss that can lead people into the field and keep the standard as high as possible so I am very confident in our overall SAR team. The K9 Team is getting there. It's progressing more and more and raising the standards. I guess a little fresh wind and seeing what a high drive dog looks like made quite a difference in this Area. 

The dogs have to have five certifications out of a list to overall, become, certified.


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## Melody Greba

OH yes... those fabulous NIMS classes! How could I forget those. ECK!


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## Sandra King

Melody Greba said:


> OH yes... those fabulous NIMS classes! How could I forget those. ECK!


Yep, we also have some book reading requirements if you want to be a K9 Handler, I completely forgot those books you have to read.


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## Jim Delbridge

More likely, State groups will have to go to national certifications if they want to work with their state emergency management as Department of Homeland Security is attaching funding to qualified certifications. True, not all states are this way and the last tornado I worked was a total reversal of stated policy because of political turf wars and panic.
Over the years, the civilian group I work with has gone from team certifications to national certs for a lot of reasons, but the biggest is that political maneuvers over certifications are no longer an issue. Our funding pays for those passed certifications and doesn't if a dog team fails, so additional incentive. If you don't have an up-to-date cert, then you don't deploy.

CARDA and Virginia state standards are considered the best to model after.
An out-of-state group that I work with has some of the toughest team standards for both dog and handler that I've seen, but they still encourage national certs as it adds credibility to the dog team. 

The local group has a perspective european dog team join. That handler's comments have been:
- U.S expected areas to search are much larger
- Our weather is too damn hot to train in.
Oklahoma is a land of extremes. We like it.
My observations of the dog team is they could have come from anywhere in the U.S. and they have a long way to go before I'd deploy them. Nothing says there aren't good dog teams in Europe. I know way too many U.S. dog teams that would embarrass me if they went to europe and suggested they were the norm.
State L.E. dogs are as varied as the number of states. Some state certify, some nationally certify, some (as we saw in the Florida case) haven't ever really certified, just attended two seminars.

Jim


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## Sandra King

> I know way too many U.S. dog teams that would embarrass me if they went to europe and suggested they were the norm.


Trust me, the same goes for Europe. 

You wouldn't believe how many SAR Groups there are in Germany and most of them are certainly not the norm. There are Obedience Schools that turn you into a mantrailer in a month... with a nice certification and all that. 

Germans dig SAR... it's cool to walk around in a K9 Handler SAR Jacket. It's the newest sport. 

However, there are some very fine teams out there and some of them are Red Cross teams. I was surprised when I learned that the US doesn't have SAR K9 teams with the Red Cross.


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## Faisal Khan

Wow, 8 pages and 72 posts.
Summary,
"If dog sucks at everything else, it can still excel at SAR"


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## Nancy Jocoy

Faisal. Grow up.


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga

Faisal Khan said:


> Wow, 8 pages and 72 posts.
> Summary,
> "If dog sucks at everything else, it can still excel at SAR"


Kind of what i was saying but a bit more direct. For God's sake i think the issue is over-stressed.


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## Nancy Jocoy

Appreciate the comments but it is in the SAR section and you don't have to participate.....I guess that is my point. I don't think any of the SAR folks come over and "judge" a bitey dog thread - thats all.


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## Don Turnipseed

Sandra King said:


> You know. One thing I don't understand is that we are so desperate about getting all those BYB's with all their crappy dogs, to quit breeding and then we say "Eh, any dog can do the job."
> 
> I am sorry but I will not support any BYB by purchasing a dog and may it the best dog I could find on this planet. It's just not going to happen. Those breeders do more damage than any serious, reputable working dog breeder that follows the rules, can. That being said, I wouldn't pay a ridiculous amount of money for a dog either. There is no way I'd pay 5000 Dollars for a year old dog that isn't even OFA'ed yet.
> 
> Anytime a person would come on certain forums and say "Hey, I have this awesome, not titled bitch that isn't health tested either and I am looking for any male to stud her because she is just so awesome." boy that person would be run off the forums instantly.
> 
> But when it comes up to SAR dogs, all of a sudden it doesn't matter anymore. To me it does matter. It does matter where the dog is from, what background the dog has, how he was brought up, imprinted and what kind of bloodlines are in the background.
> 
> Rescues are a different story. I'd certainly take onto rescues but buying from a BYB. NO!


You have heard the saying Sandra. "In the end, people always end up with the dog they deserve".


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## Sandra King

Can somebody explain why some people think that SAR is such a joke?


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## Jennifer Coulter

Sandra King said:


> Can somebody explain why some people think that SAR is such a joke?


There is the general impression that SAR geeks are self important, un-fit, un-trained, self deploying middle aged women with nothing better to do.

There is the impression that SAR DOG people seem to overstate their usefulness, and on some occasions their abilities. 

Of course this is completely true in SOME cases. The bad apples attract more attention.

Talking about SAR teams in general now...not only SAR dog folks:

I think if people realized what many SAR teams do, WITH NO PAY, with training they did on their own time with out pay, and do things that most police, fire and ambulance are not trained or allowed to do, at risk to their personal safety, while missing income from work, while missing their family....at the ring of a phone call day or or night, often to do non glamorous crap like body recovery...they wouldn't be so quick to judge.


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga

Sandra King said:


> Can somebody explain why some people think that SAR is such a joke?


Sandra i'm not one of those people and i think SAR is just as important as patrol k9 work, detection etc. What i've been meaning to say is i THINK most decent lines will produce more dogs that can do SAR than say patrolk9s or S.W.A.T dogs, training i think is of greater importance. Truth is many dogs washed out of patrol k9 classes end up being detection dogs or SAR dogs so that says a lot. You know how much effort you put in training those dogs so if i were you i'd ignore any silly comments.
I hope i've explained myself well.8-[


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## Jennifer Coulter

Oluwatobi Odunuga said:


> Sandra i'm not one of those people and i think SAR is just as important as patrol k9 work, detection etc. What i've been meaning to say is i THINK most decent lines will produce more dogs that can do SAR than say patrolk9s or S.W.A.T dogs, training i think is of greater importance. Truth is many dogs washed out of patrol k9 classes end up being detection dogs or SAR dogs so that says a lot. You know how much effort you put in training those dogs so if i were you i'd ignore any silly comments.
> I hope i've explained myself well.8-[


Dogs that couldn't cut it as patrol dogs can make good SAR dogs.....or not. Depends why they couldn't be patrol dogs.

If the dog was washed from patrol work for lack of prey drive, hunt drive, confidence, stability and so on....I wouldn't want it for SAR.

If it genetically did not have the best grips for sport, or lacked the defensive aggression required for street work, or was seen to be too small in size for patrol, it may still be a good SAR dog.

All that said, I think if you talk to SAR handlers you will find that some breeders have had a tendency to take the shit dogs from the litter and try and pawn them off to SAR homes, and that is really frustrating.


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## Nancy Jocoy

I really think it is a win-win there and wish there was more interplay like that - that is the kind of reject I would want. Of course, a department could probably make an excellent detection dog out of a dog suitable for SAR.

The biggest misconception I have seen is not understanding how much nerve strength is required. You can condition a sport dog to the predictable gunfire but you can't waste time on a working dog that needs to "get over" everything that is "scary" to them.


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## Sandra King

Nancy Jocoy said:


> I really think it is a win-win there and wish there was more interplay like that - that is the kind of reject I would want. Of course, a department could probably make an excellent detection dog out of a dog suitable for SAR.
> 
> The biggest misconception I have seen is not understanding how much nerve strength is required. You can condition a sport dog to the predictable gunfire but you can't waste time on a working dog that needs to "get over" everything that is "scary" to them.


That, and the lack of drive. Since RH is a big sport in Germany a lot of people don't care about drives, they simply train with food and food only. It's people and dogs that have no place in the real SAR world and those people call themselves K9 Handler. And boy do they get defensive when you bring up the fact that a SAR dog needs Prey, Hunt, Hardness, Nerve Strength, Good Health. 

And then they bring up the question why their dogs are not reliable on the re-find and what they can do. When you ask them "How do you do it?" you get the answer "with food" and then you ask "are they pre-driven? If so, a toy might be much more powerful as a reward than your average cookie." they say "No, we've always trained with cookies." and I am like "Well... does he have prey drive or doesn't he?"
"What are you suggesting that all the food trained dogs are bad dogs?"
And you are trying to explain that a dog has to have a reason to go find the subject, to come back to the handler and to lead the handler back to the Subject and that a single cookie just isn't reason enough for a dog. It's not powerful enough to make them do that. And then they tell you that that maybe applies to the German Shepherd but not to other breeds. 

Then you are trying to tell them to go back to the basics, because if a dog is not reliable on the indication and the re-find it shouldn't be out searching but rather be trained on the basics and if the dog is prey drive, just use a frickin toy instead of the food and if he doesn't have the drives, they may want to rethink if it's fair to the dog to drag them through all that training and that it'll more likely end up in frustration for the handler and the dog. ](*,)


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## Nancy Jocoy

I agree in general with the toy driven dog and it is all I want to deal with, but I have seen some food-driven dogs who would knock your socks off so I am not going to discount that. 

I am talking about dogs who are so motivated for food that they cannot be satiated. Often these dogs have toy drive as well but the food drive is intense.

Sometimes I think those dogs may make excellent trailing dogs. Consider the bloodhound who works for food and praise as an example.


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## Jennifer Michelson

Really, the point is that the SAR dog needs high drive, strong nerve and a certain amount of hardness. So if that kind of dog washes out of a police program due to lack of agression etc, then yeah, it can succeed as a SAR dog. But if it washes out due to lack of nerve, hunt drive etc, it will not succeed as a 'real' sar dog. 

There are a lot of wanna-be's with sub standard dogs in SAR and because we are mainly volunteers, there is no one to weed them out. Those of us who pick the right dogs have to put up with those kinds of people and dogs and deal with the stereotypes they make for SAR in general.

Personally I think drive is drive...what ever works for the dog. I have 2 with pretty high drive--Griffin would work fine as a food dog, he will take your hand off for food, tug or ball equally. We switch between tug and ball, I personally dont like having to carry or use food--too messy.
Remus is a ball dog--like Griffin, he truly believes he is starving every moment of the day, but for work, he wants the ball.

I see nothing wrong or laughable about trying to find breeders who breed for scent work/hunt drive. I have one dog with pronounced hunt drive--he is obsessive and will search till he drops (if we lose a ball and then go back to the area another day, he will start looking again). I want that again. My young dog is very drivey and has good hunt drive, but it is not the obsessive hunt drive that my older dog has. Griffin had this drive from the beginning, as far as I am concerned, I did nothing to train it, he just came with it. Now that I see the difference between high prey drive and high prey drive plus pronounced hunt drive, I will be looking more for the hunt. As other folks have been trying to point out, our dogs have to search in absence of scent for long periods of time. No triggers to let them think that the reward is coming.


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## Sandra King

@Melody: I just talked to my father about Abels Pedigree an I think you would have loved what he had to say. I told him that I love Abels structure and that he's got bones that are almost as thick as my arm and that he's a tall dog. He said that he's got that from Greif von Lahntal which I already suspected. 

He explained every single dog in that pedigree and knew every dog, even handled more than four of the dogs he has in the pedigree, himself. The only line he doesn't know is the Agrigento line but that is mainly because it is a show-line. 

Like I said, he likes the Pedigree and they would make an interesting match. . And I am pretty sure you will like what he said it. While I know quite a bit, my father knows those dogs in and out. Take Basko vom Flughafenrand for example. He was one of the meanest sons of bitches out there. If you would have let him, he would have killed. He was one of those dogs you could have sent into any building and he would have killed any person in there. 
Karlo vom Peko Haus was one of the roughest an toughest dogs out there as well. A lot of people tried to handle him and failed. And he is a decendent to Basko vom Flughafenrand. Nirko was a very serious and tough dog as well that not everybody could handle. So they had to put some dogs together that would actually take off the edge of the extreme. Arek von der Fasanerie for example. Good, moderate dog that could be handled by anyone. So nowhere near extreme as Basko vom Flughafenrand and Karlo. 

Since you said that he's a serious dog, that goes all the way back to Basko, Karlo and Nirko. 

He was actually surprised that there are still dogs out there that have Nirko in the third generation. That your dog would fit very well on my bitch Pedigree wise.


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## Sandra King

Nancy Jocoy said:


> I agree in general with the toy driven dog and it is all I want to deal with, but I have seen some food-driven dogs who would knock your socks off so I am not going to discount that.
> 
> I am talking about dogs who are so motivated for food that they cannot be satiated. Often these dogs have toy drive as well but the food drive is intense.
> 
> Sometimes I think those dogs may make excellent trailing dogs. Consider the bloodhound who works for food and praise as an example.


I know that, Nancy. But it's not bloodhounds I was talking about and those dogs don't have that insane food drive you are talking about either. Judge would most certainly work for food just as much as for a toy. He's got an over the top, insane food drive but those dogs... nowhere even near and all they use is a darn cookie. If they'd use some cheese or maybe some Wieners, Chicken, something with quality the dogs would probably respond differently but it's like talking to a wall of bricks. 

It's because they don't know better. They've always trained like that, they are comfortable with what they do and they don't want to hear that their dogs lack the drive to do that kind of job. 

And isn't it always like that? If I told you that one of your dogs doesn't have the drive and if you told me if one of my dogs doesn't have it, we would handle with it differently because we probably wouldn't take it as a personal insult and look at it from a different perspective than most pet owners do. 

If you tell a pet owner "Look, your dog lacks the drive and he is not suitable for the job." boy, it's like you've insulted them personally. 





> Really, the point is that the SAR dog needs high drive, strong nerve and a certain amount of hardness. So if that kind of dog washes out of a police program due to lack of agression etc, then yeah, it can succeed as a SAR dog. But if it washes out due to lack of nerve, hunt drive etc, it will not succeed as a 'real' sar dog.
> 
> There are a lot of wanna-be's with sub standard dogs in SAR and because we are mainly volunteers, there is no one to weed them out. Those of us who pick the right dogs have to put up with those kinds of people and dogs and deal with the stereotypes they make for SAR in general.
> 
> Personally I think drive is drive...what ever works for the dog. I have 2 with pretty high drive--Griffin would work fine as a food dog, he will take your hand off for food, tug or ball equally. We switch between tug and ball, I personally dont like having to carry or use food--too messy.
> Remus is a ball dog--like Griffin, he truly believes he is starving every moment of the day, but for work, he wants the ball.
> 
> I see nothing wrong or laughable about trying to find breeders who breed for scent work/hunt drive. I have one dog with pronounced hunt drive--he is obsessive and will search till he drops (if we lose a ball and then go back to the area another day, he will start looking again). I want that again. My young dog is very drivey and has good hunt drive, but it is not the obsessive hunt drive that my older dog has. Griffin had this drive from the beginning, as far as I am concerned, I did nothing to train it, he just came with it. Now that I see the difference between high prey drive and high prey drive plus pronounced hunt drive, I will be looking more for the hunt. As other folks have been trying to point out, our dogs have to search in absence of scent for long periods of time. No triggers to let them think that the reward is coming.


I absolutely agree with you and couldn't have said it any better.


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## Sandra King

> I see nothing wrong or laughable about trying to find breeders who breed for scent work/hunt drive. I have one dog with pronounced hunt drive--he is obsessive and will search till he drops (if we lose a ball and then go back to the area another day, he will start looking again).


Indra is like that too. If she can't find the ball, and you break her from searching for it, she'll sit in front of the door, pacing, whining, wanting to go back out to get it. She came with it and it wasn't trained. The only reason I trained hunt drive was because I was told it's the most crucial part and you want to keep working your dogs on it, doesn't matter how good, you think, they are. So I did and it eventually led to article search... what can I say, SHE LOVES IT!
She even tried climbing the sun room to get to her darn frisbee and even a month later, she's still looking up because she know it's on there and we can't get it down... LOL


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Sandra,

Were you raised in Germany? It seems that your father is a pedigree encyclopedia except for Czech and DDR and that he doesn't know about the hunt drive because that wasn't the focus of Sch. Is that what you are saying? Are the dogs you mentioned in Abel's pedigree [behind Pike] that dominant producing that you think it carries through to Abel? It seems Indra is linebred on Yoschy and Half and that your Dad considers it a good match with Abel. Why? What traits are similar and complement one another--i.e. what he hopes or expects the click to be. I'm just curious from a paper standpoint how he is matching them up based on some historical dogs. I'd be curious to know from Melody what Abel's dam brings to the table and more on how he resembles his sire in work. 


Terrasita


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## Melody Greba

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Sandra,
> 
> I'd be curious to know from Melody what Abel's dam brings to the table and more on how he resembles his sire in work.
> 
> 
> Terrasita


Terrasita:

We knew Geppetto personally over a few years, a good friend of ours who we their respect opinion also saw him when he was first imported. Watched this dog work through hard, hard work in all kinds of weather including hot. Geppetto (Gunner) had tremendous heart. Died at age 14.

Abe is very much like Gunner. You ask the people that have worked him. 

As for hunt drive, we have a standard mental/exercise enrichment that we do for any of our pups when we raise one. Pretty basic from our standpoint. 

After our pups plays a good 2 ball; we take them down to one of our pastures and pass up the open gate by about 40-50 ft. Throw the ball over the fence and allow the puppy to problem solve on how to get to the other side. (We usually start this at age 4 mos.)After they remember the gait, they jet through it and search for the ball. Its good mental and physical exercise and allows them to learn how to search in all kinds of wind, humidity, etc scent situations. All of our dogs do this, day or night. 

That's why I don't understand so many positions being taken on here because if someone puts in some good early learning skills and develpoment into a dog with genetics that have repeatedly maintained all drives; then at an early age, it's a no brainer for the dog.


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## Sandra King

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Sandra,
> 
> Were you raised in Germany? It seems that your father is a pedigree encyclopedia except for Czech and DDR and that he doesn't know about the hunt drive because that wasn't the focus of Sch. Is that what you are saying? Are the dogs you mentioned in Abel's pedigree [behind Pike] that dominant producing that you think it carries through to Abel? It seems Indra is linebred on Yoschy and Half and that your Dad considers it a good match with Abel. Why? What traits are similar and complement one another--i.e. what he hopes or expects the click to be. I'm just curious from a paper standpoint how he is matching them up based on some historical dogs. I'd be curious to know from Melody what Abel's dam brings to the table and more on how he resembles his sire in work.
> 
> 
> Terrasita


Yes, I was raised in Germany and my father is literally a walking encyclopedia of west german working line dogs based from many many years of handling dogs and experience. He didn't just want some GSD, he always bred based on world class, working dog material. Not the ones that bring the points but the ones that are the real thing. 

Like I said earlier, there was a lot of idealism involved and even the dogs that couldn't live up to his stanard were the best dogs some Schutzhund Handlers that only competed on local level, ever had.

He does know Hunt Drive. He knows exactly what it is and he knows how to test for it, he just never had the need to do it but our line carries it naturally anyways, as well as the Herding Instinct because he always thrived for more than the average Schutzhund Person wanted, which ultimately created dogs that not everybody could handle, like Nirko for example. If you look at our dogs, most, if not all of them go back to Gildo vom Koerbelbach. 

Yes, he thinks that it does carry through to Abel and I think it would carry through to other dogs as well. 
As for my bitch, she does go back to Yoschy, which also means that you have Askia vom Froschgraben. She was borderline and could be a bit on the nervy side. When I told him what she's got in the pedigree he was like: Jeez, Askia vom Froschgraben? Are you serious? Indra is not a nervy dog, she's got rock solid nerves an great prey drive but you never know if it'll show through in the next generations down the road.
So what he wants is to take some of the best working stock you can get and where he knows that the abilities were passed on and produce, yet an even better working dog. 

However, he also said that if I wanted an even better match, I should look for Olko vom Baerenfang, Orlie vom Baerenfang or Asko vom Siegelgrund. Because they were as rough and tough as Nirko but much easier to handle. However, even if you do match the dogs, it's not said that you get those over the top dogs that you want, but even those dogs that don't live up to your standard might be better than what others would consider as normal and that is what he's trying to do. 

He also said that my boy Yukon would make a great match since his father had an insane prey drive (Orkan von der Maineiche) but wasn't so much on the defense drive side. So if I wanted to produce a rock solid dog, that doesn't have as much defense, yet comes with prey and hunt drive, my male would fit perfectly on her an possibly produce some very nice SAR stock. He said that he has never seen a dog retrieve like Orkan.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

What has your father done with herding instinct. I'm curious because what I'm seing from some of the current HGH dogs is just insane prey drive and dogs lacking in what I consider stock sense. Most GSDs I've had, had extremely strong object and retrieve drive, yet they weren't prey trigger happy and given to high frustration. If I lost one of the animals, all I had to say was "find it" and nose to the ground they did. Sending them on a blind outrun in herding--they tracked them. None of these were trained to track. BTW, two of these were out of American show lines---one with nerves of steel in her stock work. As a contrast, my bouv could care less about objects but her prey trigger [live animals] is quite frankly, a pain. Back to SAR and hunt, given what you have in your father, doesn't sound like you can get any better in terms of pedigree analysis. For me, I want to know as much as possible about the sire, dam and grandparents and then what's behind them. I think you have to follow other SAR GSDs that work at the higher levels and look at their pedigrees. If I were a SAR person, what Melody has written about how she develops her puppies and tests them as early as 4 months would be a draw, along with the involvement with LE dogs. As a herder, I'd question further regarding the dam line [I'm into bitches] and the "reactivity." There was a reason your old world herders had instinctive guard and territoriality. For me high object/retrieve is separate from reactive prey. I don't want over the top, but balance and a dog that can chill around the house in maturity. That same dog when you put it to work will work until he drops. I would figure its the same for SAR. I don't believe that type of "heart" and over the top prey are the same things either. I agree on the nerves. A nervy man dog is gonna be a nervy stock dog, and vice versa. I'm as bad about that as any protection person, if not worse. I don't have livestock that are willing to "help" the dog. For me a SAR dog would have to be 100% environmentally and regarding people. 

BTW, Melody, I was trying to look at Aja's pedigree and the link didn't work.

Terrasita


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## Melody Greba

BTW said:


> Terrasita:
> 
> Here is Abe and Aja's pedigree.
> http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=506605
> 
> Aja is Sch3, as is their littermate, Alixa is also Sch3. Another female littermate is a narc dog. All xrayed are ofa good.
> 
> Aja can be taken in a herd of sheep and controlable. (we have sheep) But Abel cannot because he would not be controlable.
> 
> I have not self-promoted on this site but stated facts with experience in both venues so people can take the information and do what they please. It's the internet....
> 
> I someone can read bloodlines and take everything into accordance...it tells a story.


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## Sandra King

> What has your father done with herding instinct.


Nothing really. We all noticed their herding instinct around the horses and we also used to have goats and sheep. One day they broke loose and without having any training one of our dogs helped bringing them in. Actually the dog did all the work. 

Especially Olko and Garfield used to herd the horses, patrolling, sometimes trying to go for the legs but never really charging aggressively. 
Indra has the herding instinct too. My old helper had an entire flock of sheep and Indra used to patrol up and down the fence, very interested in the sheep. If I had the time I'd go visit Ulf Kintzel but can't do everything at the same time.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Melody Greba said:


> Terrasita:
> 
> Here is Abe and Aja's pedigree.
> http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=506605
> 
> Aja is Sch3, as is their littermate, Alixa is also Sch3. Another female littermate is a narc dog. All xrayed are ofa good.
> 
> Aja can be taken in a herd of sheep and controlable. (we have sheep) But Abel cannot because he would not be controlable.
> 
> I have not self-promoted on this site but stated facts with experience in both venues so people can take the information and do what they please. It's the internet....
> 
> I someone can read bloodlines and take everything into accordance...it tells a story.


Well, I'm glad you jumped in here. I looked at your site a couple of years ago. I sensed that about Abel in terms of the reactivity. Like I've said before, its nice to be able to read about the scope of the dog beyond bite work. Its cool that you have sheep and know that aspect of it as well. You understand the difference between drive for stock work vs. reactivity---not that reactive can't be worked with. 

T


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga

Jennifer Coulter said:


> Dogs that couldn't cut it as patrol dogs can make good SAR dogs.....or not. Depends why they couldn't be patrol dogs.
> 
> If the dog was washed from patrol work for lack of prey drive, hunt drive, confidence, stability and so on....I wouldn't want it for SAR.
> 
> If it genetically did not have the best grips for sport, or lacked the defensive aggression required for street work, or was seen to be too small in size for patrol, it may still be a good SAR dog.
> 
> All that said, I think if you talk to SAR handlers you will find that some breeders have had a tendency to take the shit dogs from the litter and try and pawn them off to SAR homes, and that is really frustrating.


Couldn't agree more. I wouldn't even want a nervy dog as a pet much less any type of working dog. I had a nervy boerboel and it was no joke.


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga

Hi Sandra,
Ed Frawley said the same thing you said about the Peko Haus dog. Do you know if the kennel is still breeding. I think maineiche still breeds, not sure.


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