# Training stubborn but soft dogs that aggress on hard correction



## Julie Hancock (Jun 7, 2008)

*Re: Koehler Hanging*

I'm new to the board and havn't really posted before but wanted to comment on this. I had to use this method last summer on my husbands dog(we have 2 Cane Corso). My husband had been deployed for a couple of months and Oz(the male) challenged me not wanting to go inside. I gave him a correction to heel and he came up the leash, totally shocked me!!! I gave him another harsh correction and he came back up the leash so I hung his a$$. He is as big as me standing on his hind legs so this was a challenge in itself. Once he had stopped thrashing I put his front legs back on the ground and told him to heel again, he complied and went to his kennel. He did not break my skin but my hand was very bruised and I could not use it for about a week.

To me it may look horrible while being done but I would do it again in a heartbeat if he ever tried to come at me again. Luckily that was the only time he has challenged me and not listened, I know he is handler sensitive so I try to not put him into defense mode.

*{Admin Note: These posts were moved out of the Koehler Hanging Thread into their own topic to avoid thread hijacking.}*


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

*Re: Koehler Hanging*



> I gave him a correction to heel and he came up the leash, totally shocked me!!





> I know he is handler sensitive so I try to not put him into defense mode.


Could you elaborate on this? Seems like a weird combination to me.


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## Julie Hancock (Jun 7, 2008)

*Re: Koehler Hanging*



Mike Schoonbrood said:


> Could you elaborate on this? Seems like a weird combination to me.


He is handler sensitive and we can not use a heavy hand with him, which we were use to in our old training with our rotties because they could handle it. Because I got real personal and used a hard correction, he kind of went into the I'll get you before you get me mode. In the past he would just buckle, submit and pout, not this day he came up the leash which I wasn't not expecting. I hope this explains it better sometimes I have a hard time putting what I mean into words:smile:. 

Without being there I know it's kind of hard to really tell but do you think that I miss read him coming at me as more as being aggressive towards me? If so could be a lack of respect he has for me as being above him in the pack, my husband is the alpha and has never challenged him. Always willing to learn and hear someone elses opinions.


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## Anne Vaini (Mar 15, 2007)

*Re: Koehler Hanging*

Julie,

We would call that handler aggressive, displacement aggression, or redirected aggression. 

I have seen the scenario you describe with sweet dogs that were overly and unfairly corrected. I've seen it more often with dominant dogs. 

We would call "handler sensitive" a dog that is a) in-tune with the handler b) responsive/malleable/biddable and c) submissive.

Yes, your dog was being aggressive. Will it continue? I can't answer that.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Julie Hancock said:


> He is handler sensitive and we can not use a heavy hand with him, which we were use to in our old training with our rotties because they could handle it. Because I got real personal and used a hard correction, he kind of went into the I'll get you before you get me mode. In the past he would just buckle, submit and pout, not this day he came up the leash which I wasn't not expecting. I hope this explains it better sometimes I have a hard time putting what I mean into words:smile:.
> 
> Without being there I know it's kind of hard to really tell but do you think that I miss read him coming at me as more as being aggressive towards me? If so could be a lack of respect he has for me as being above him in the pack, my husband is the alpha and has never challenged him. Always willing to learn and hear someone elses opinions.


 
I don't think it's aggression as much as it is fear and "I've had enough". You've pushed him past the "buckle submit and pout". He's learned that doesn't appease you and he's going right into aggression. Even a soft dog can be pushed into bitting when it's had enough of incorrect or heavey handed correction. You work correction to the level of the individual dog if correction is your choice of training. This isn't the Rottie you had before. JMHO!


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## Julie Hancock (Jun 7, 2008)

*Re: Koehler Hanging*



Bob Scott said:


> Lost the post!
> 
> I don't think it's aggression as much as it is fear and "I've had enough". You've pushed him past the "buckle submit and pout". He's learned that doesn't appease you and he's going right into aggression. Even a soft dog can be pushed into bitting when it's had enough of incorrect or heavey handed correction. You work correction to the level of the individual dog if correction is your choice of training. This isn't the Rottie you had before. JMHO!


Bob thanks. I knew he was sensitive to correction and I popped him hard(which I never do with him). I expected him to buckle but instead he came at me. My husband was deployed and is the one that works him and so he had alot of tension built up anyway. He had never come at me before and caught me off guard but I knew if I back down I could end up with more problems. He is a different type of dog and I knew that so it was a learning experience for me that day. Never give in to my emotions and reverting back to the heavy corrections with him. I keep it light. 

Now question: What would you do with a dog that is sensitive to correction but can also be a a$$ about listening? Not in a training situation just everyday interaction. The problem I find is if he THINKS he is in trouble he can become defensive with me(never my husband, so obviously that is a lack of respect with me). What I have done since that last incident is I will make my voice light and almost like bribe him to do what I want(so to speak). I do not want him to think I am scared of him but sometimes I get really frustrated on the proper way to handle him in these types of senarios. My other Corso is the most easy going laid back dog I have ever owned, even though she has no drive, she can handle more of a correction than our male. When I say correction, I'm talking about a pop with the collar(choke or pinch) and when we have used an ecollar or just using the tone of my voice.

Sorry I know I just highjacked this thread so if you want to pm me that is fine too. Thanks


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Dang you have mentioned coming up the lease hanging, popping hard, pinch collar, ecollar I use all of these but. I don't think it is lack of respect the dog has my guess is he despises you get some treats and teach.


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## David Frost (Mar 29, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> I don't think it's aggression as much as it is fear and "I've had enough". You've pushed him past the "buckle submit and pout". He's learned that doesn't appease you and he's going right into aggression. Even a soft dog can be pushed into bitting when it's had enough of incorrect or heavey handed correction. You work correction to the level of the individual dog if correction is your choice of training. This isn't the Rottie you had before. JMHO!


I just couldn't let this thread go by without agreeing with Bob. From the description, it is exactly that; I've had enough.

DFrost


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

As a general rule this breed is sensitive to handlers. Not that they can't be a bad Ass when they want to. Sounds to me like he don't respect you and is simply saying that he don't have to do anything you say. There are a couple of ways the handle this, sweet talking bribes or stand your ground as the dominate one. I'm not saying you have to yank and crank but he MUST respect you. If you use the dominate approach have someone with you. Go just as far as you have to and don't cross that line. When he complies with what you wanted then praise him and give him treats. He must know that you are the boss and if he does what is asked then he is rewarded. DON'T CROSS THAT LINE. Read your dog.


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## Mo Earle (Mar 1, 2008)

I recently got a beautiful GSD that was being "thrown away" at 18 months for biting his owner etc, the first day I had him, trying to put him in his kennel, he came back up the leash and bit me twice...with this dog, I have remained firm, but fair-...and in doing so..he has become an awesome dog...no more challenges, bites, no more conflict. I personally don't bribe with treats, or baby talk...but believe I have shown the dog, he can trust me...and I will be fair. Physically, I will never be stronger or tougher than this dog...but I can be smarter...or at least let him believe I am stronger than him and smarter.:-k Mo


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Mo Earle said:


> I personally don't bribe with treats, or baby talk...but believe I have shown the dog, he can trust me...and I will be fair. Physically, I will never be stronger or tougher than this dog...but I can be smarter...or at least let him believe I am stronger than him and smarter.:-k Mo


Just one quick note: bribe, reward, and lure are three different things. 

Yep, smarter works!


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## Julie Hancock (Jun 7, 2008)

Jerry Lyda said:


> As a general rule this breed is sensitive to handlers. Not that they can't be a bad Ass when they want to. Sounds to me like he don't respect you and is simply saying that he don't have to do anything you say. There are a couple of ways the handle this, sweet talking bribes or stand your ground as the dominate one. I'm not saying you have to yank and crank but he MUST respect you. If you use the dominate approach have someone with you. Go just as far as you have to and don't cross that line. When he complies with what you wanted then praise him and give him treats. He must know that you are the boss and if he does what is asked then he is rewarded. DON'T CROSS THAT LINE. Read your dog.


Thanks for your comments and advice. This was the one and only time this happened, but yes I do feel there is a lack of respect for me. One thing that I noticed I had left out in my previous post was before the hard correction I told him to come inside. He laid down by my friend and when I bent down to pull him by his collar to come in is when he snapped at me the first time. This is when I grabbed the leash and gave him a good pop,I was not expecting him to come up the leash but to comply and come in the house like I told him too. So obviously there is a lack of respect he has for my authority! Not because I am mean or hard on him, but because shortly after we got him I became pregnant, we bought another corso and my focus turned to her and the new baby that came shortly after that. So for the next couple of years I did not do much with him and my husband was everything to him.

He is a much different dog than our Rotties were(they were both our dogs and didn't favor one of us over the other) and they seem to bond tightly with one person of the house. My female is this way with me where as the male is all about my husband. This one time was the only time I had been heavy handed with him because I learned early on that he would shut down if I so much as used a harsh voice. That day wasn't pleasant for either one of us, but I felt at that split second I did what I needed to do to let him know that I was not afraid of him. 

I use tons of praise when I train(and with him it's playing tug or ball for praise not interested in food). I do feel after reading some of these comments and advice that I need to get out there with him one on one to build up a relationship with him so that he will trust and respect me more than he does now. But for someone in this thread to say he despises me I didn't feel was needed or a help in anyway. Lack of respect yes I can see, since for the last couple of years other than the occasional walks, baths, brushing, feeding him or play ball in the yard with him I don't have much else to do with him. Not because I don't care for him but I have my plate full with my 3 kids and my dog that I kind of let my husband do everything with him. So I guess my first steps will be training with him just the two of us and building up his confidence and respect for me will be a good start. Live and learn!!


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

OK, what I think might help is that you use the search function and find some of the threads we have had in the past about correcting dogs that do not really understand what you want. When I hear things like "respect" in a conversation with corrections, I start thinking bad training method. I do not think that the basic problem of the dog not really knowing what you are asking has been addressed.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Julie Hancock said:


> .... This was the one and only time this happened, but yes I do feel there is a lack of respect for me.


If you are giving hard corrections for a command that the dog doesn't have down pat, then "had enough" is a good description.

You mentioned that he's not food-driven? To really hone my timing with this dog, I'd start marker training with food when he is hungry. And I'd probably use pretty high-value food.

I'd get a piece of cooked chicken (smells stronger than raw and not so unpleasant to handle) and cut it into teeny treats.

Then I would load a marker (maybe "yes") and start little upbeat training sessions throughout the day. Little enough so that no one gets frustrated, starting and ending on a high note.

I would start indoors with no distractions and only gradually add distractions (the yard, the yard with someone in it, etc.).


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Of course it is a cane corse, trash can of the dog world. Maybe we shouldn't expect much of anything to start. LOL

NOT food driven. wow, interesting how I would sell that dog instantly now days. Before I would be all interested.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> NOT food driven. wow, interesting how I would sell that dog instantly now days.


"Food-driven" is a wonderful thing. :lol:


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

To the O.P., the reason I would get him pretty hungry and use high-value food is that food rewards are really easy to handle when you start marker ob and you are working on your timing.

The timing is what speeds the dog's understanding of the connection between the wanted behavior and the reward.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

I soooooo would just not feed that dog. And giggle my mother****ing ass off while I was doing it. LOL JK

How does a breed get to the point of not really feeling the need to eat ? ? ? ? How much grant money could I get to study that ? ? ? ? ?


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> I soooooo would just not feed that dog. ... How does a breed get to the point of not really feeling the need to eat ? ? ? ? How much grant money could I get to study that ? ? ? ? ?


Is that a trait of this breed?

For this individual dog, I *would* make sure that he was hungry when we started. (I'm NOT JK. :lol: )

If it was a breed trait, then it's beyond me how that could possibly have evolved.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

OK, how does a breed get to the point where there are individuals that have no food drive???????


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> OK, how does a breed get to the point where there are individuals that have no food drive???????


I pretty much didn't believe it but didn't want to get into it.

I figured that the dog was free-fed, or overfed, or under-exercised, or something else that would be fixable under the umbrella of "have the dog hungry when you start."


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Work with a couple of these dogs and it is enough to make you want to quit training. JUNK JUNK JUNK.

For those of you that love the breed, sorry, but percentages rule in the rest of the world. THat one dog that you thought you heard of that titled in something or the other you think, but was definately a MONSTER............doesn't translate to the rest of this goofy breed. God, their expensive too, so it is a nice double **** you, right off the bat. Beauty.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Work with a couple of these dogs and it is enough to make you want to quit training. JUNK JUNK JUNK.
> 
> For those of you that love the breed, sorry, but percentages rule in the rest of the world. THat one dog that you thought you heard of that titled in something or the other you think, but was definately a MONSTER............doesn't translate to the rest of this goofy breed. God, their expensive too, so it is a nice double **** you, right off the bat. Beauty.


Well, there are other breeds that I never saw a good one of but that have their very devoted fans, too. Non-junk is in the eye of the beholder. Something like that, anyway.....

Also, think of how wonderful it is to sharpen your skills on a hard-to-work-with dog and then to have your next dog be .... different. 

I heard that CCs were expensive. How expensive?


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote: Also, think of how wonderful it is to sharpen your skills

What skills ? ? ? ? Trust me with shit like these dogs you don't sharpen anything.......except the pinch.:lol: 

I think they go for 2-3 grand.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: Also, think of how wonderful it is to sharpen your skills
> 
> "What skills ? ? ? ? ".


Well, then, polish your patience. :lol:

$2-3 grand is astounding. I was braced for a several-hundred-dollars answer.


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## Jeff Oehlsen (Apr 7, 2006)

Or just get a dog that actually like to do stuff. I have seen some that seemed to enjoy the beginning, but melted under the control, which of course sucks, as the handlers spend a lot of time on them.

My personal experiences are they are junk with the work, and well, an aweful lot.


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