# People getting dogs that they cant handle. cont.



## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

I wonder here in the states, what scale of influence that training clubs or training directors have over the choices of dogs that people get.

I have heard of this happening and have seen it with my own eyes, where someone pushes someone else into getting a dog or even a pup, that they should not have gotten, either from breeders associated with the club, or from a breeder that a club member owns a dog from, a vendor, or just from another breeder of dogs.

I know it is ultimately the persons choice on what dog or pup they end up getting, but I have seen suggestive people get pushed into something they were not ready for. So I am guessing it plays a role in a certain % of cases.


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## dewon fields (Apr 5, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> I wonder here in the states, what scale of influence that training clubs or training directors have over the choices of dogs that people get.
> 
> I have heard of this happening and have seen it with my own eyes, where someone pushes someone else into getting a dog or even a pup, that they should not have gotten, either from breeders associated with the club, or from a breeder that a club member owns a dog from, a vendor, or just from another breeder of dogs.
> 
> I know it is ultimately the persons choice on what dog or pup they end up getting, but I have seen suggestive people get pushed into something they were not ready for. So I am guessing it plays a role in a certain % of cases.


 influence? beginners usely take advise from the top trainer in the club. Personally I march to my own drum beat. I don't buy whats a trend. I buy what I see at the trials. Good one Joby


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## John Campbell (Jul 25, 2010)

Well I'm sure that the breeders/trainers play a large role in dog selection for people like me all the time. What are we doing on this board except looking for advice from people that should know better than us. People are taken advantage of everyday by so called experts and it is by no means limited to the working dog world. 

On this board alone how many people do you think are full of it?

With the amount of people who are in the dog industry solely to make a buck and have no interest in the sport/breed/people in general. It would not surprise me one bit if the disreputable out number the reputable 10 to 1.


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## Kevin Cyr (Dec 28, 2012)

John Campbell said:


> Well I'm sure that the breeders/trainers play a large role in dog selection for people like me all the time. What are we doing on this board except looking for advice from people that should know better than us. People are taken advantage of everyday by so called experts and it is by no means limited to the working dog world.
> 
> On this board alone how many people do you think are full of it?
> 
> With the amount of people who are in the dog industry solely to make a buck and have no interest in the sport/breed/people in general. It would not surprise me one bit if the disreputable out number the reputable 10 to 1.


 
I agree totally, not to mention, the BS marketing of dogs, techniques, etc. The fake bloodlines, buying one cause its mom, dad, littermate was the next best thing, etc... 

The demand for dogs in the last 5-10yrs has gone up considerably, but so has the BS trainers, breeders and vendors. 

Puppy prices were crazy, but now not so much, because you have everyone under the sun breeding dogs

The demand is slowing down now, lets see whose still around in the next 3-5yrs and doing well. ( The one that is about the DOG and not the dollar I presume)


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## Kevin Cyr (Dec 28, 2012)

If your buying a puppy< i truly think its a different story, but an older green or trained dog I can understand. I've never had a pup that was too much that I couldn't handle. A PITA yes, but too much never, when it grew up, well thats a different story, but by that time, I already established the who, what, when and where...


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

John Campbell said:


> Well I'm sure that the breeders/trainers play a large role in dog selection for people like me all the time. What are we doing on this board except looking for advice from people that should know better than us. People are taken advantage of everyday by so called experts and it is by no means limited to the working dog world.
> 
> On this board alone how many people do you think are full of it?
> 
> With the amount of people who are in the dog industry solely to make a buck and have no interest in the sport/breed/people in general. It would not surprise me one bit if the disreputable out number the reputable 10 to 1.


I do see your point, I doubt it is that high personally, but cant quantify that at all, so we will just agree to disagree.

But I do know first hand that the purchasers themselves often misrepresent themselves to the breeders...it goes both ways...everyone is good at talking a good game, and even in fooling themselves.

When a person is selling a dog or pup to someone, they often do not KNOW the person, the input they gather is based on conversations/correspondence with that person, or people that they are associated with, and the breeder is truly bamboozled.

It very well could be that indicators are it will be a good match, and the person is good at handling a certain type of dog, or training for a certain thing, has done xyz with dogs, and talks a good game, and then it turns out they get a dog that disrupts that prior history.

there are plenty of factors.. I personally have seen people get dogs that I knew were not going to be a good match, watching from the sidelines, where I am sure it was not the breeders fault.

hell I sold some dogs and pups to people that truly blew my mind, when helping them address issue X,Y,Z that they had with the pup/dog, people that visited my home, talked for hours, and showed me their handling of other dogs, that I felt good about putting the dog/pup in their hands..yet a few of them had problems with even 5-6 month old puppies in various facets, blew my mind when specifics were discussed on the history of how the dog was kept, raised, or trained.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> I wonder here in the states, what scale of influence that training clubs or training directors have over the choices of dogs that people get.
> 
> I have heard of this happening and have seen it with my own eyes, where someone pushes someone else into getting a dog or even a pup, that they should not have gotten, either from breeders associated with the club, or from a breeder that a club member owns a dog from, a vendor, or just from another breeder of dogs.
> 
> I know it is ultimately the persons choice on what dog or pup they end up getting, but I have seen suggestive people get pushed into something they were not ready for. So I am guessing it plays a role in a certain % of cases.


I'm guessing you're right to the point that you contact someone for a dog; they contact the TD for a referance and after telling you that based on your criteria, you should look at X dog/litter, they change and tell you that you should look at something else. TD wants one type of dog to train for his system and you're really interested in something different. Its not always something the potential handler can't handle but just maybe a different type of dog. One may like a nutso prey monger, they other with an off switch and more balanced. I think at times the thought is that if it is something over the top, if they are with a club, they will help them. Bottom line, dogs read people and it has nothing to do with overt behavior. A dominan dog will know whether you can bring it or not and if you can't he will exploit that for all its worth.

T


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## John Campbell (Jul 25, 2010)

But I do know first hand that the purchasers themselves often misrepresent themselves to the breeders...it goes both ways...everyone is good at talking a good game said:


> I agree 100% with you on this.
> I'm a Former Marine/Cop/Ranger/Bare Knuckle Boxing Champion blah blah blah and its a 70 Lb stupid dog, I can handle it. My buddy has this great such and such and I want the same kinda dog but better. I want the dog that killed Bin Laden
> 
> People will consistently overestimate their ability to handle a given situation or underestimate how much time/effort something will require.


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## Timothy Saunders (Mar 12, 2009)

the problem is that if u let people get dogs themselves they buy what THEY see.. If THEY have no experience they buy a beautiful dog. Just happen to me. A guy put a down payment on a show line pup. He want a p.p. dog.
It is a hard balancing act. You try to go to a breeder who puts out good dogs, sometime the dog is too much. I normally try to get the middle or last pups from good litters. hopefully those are just enough.


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## Donna DeYoung (Jan 29, 2010)

Timothy Saunders said:


> the problem is that if u let people get dogs themselves they buy what THEY see.. If THEY have no experience they buy a beautiful dog. Just happen to me. A guy put a down payment on a show line pup. He want a p.p. dog.
> It is a hard balancing act. You try to go to a breeder who puts out good dogs, sometime the dog is too much. I normally try to get the middle or last pups from good litters. hopefully those are just enough.


I'm lucky in that the most recent pup I purchased comes from a local breeder w/ alot of experience and who likes to share their stories w/ me. Every time I've called her w/ a question or update about my pup, we end up talking for an hour or more. 

When I start talking about what I want and like (like one of her over the top crazy bitches), she puts me in line and tells me that's not what I want O and not only that, but why. And then talks some more.

It's up to me to listen.

still learning ...


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

John Campbell said:


> People will consistently overestimate their ability to handle a given situation or underestimate how much time/effort something will require.


Yes this is the truth about most people. On this forum alone I have encountered more two faced, liars then any place I can think of. Its those who profess to be without ego, different, ethical, etc. and do so almost emphatically that in fact are exactly the polar opposite.

If desire to buy a dog from someone I can't find a common ground or can't become friends with then clearly I am dealing with the wrong individual.


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## kristin tresidder (Oct 23, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> I wonder here in the states, what scale of influence that training clubs or training directors have over the choices of dogs that people get.



probably not as much influence as the internet has...


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

kristin tresidder said:


> probably not as much influence as the internet has...


probably right..but when the two collide, there can be magic in the air..


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## Tracey Hughes (Jul 13, 2007)

In defence of handlers..how do you really know what is too much for you unless you try. And how can you know exactly how pup "a" is going to mature. You don't know unless you experienced it. 

Since my very first dog, a Pit Bull, I have been told that dog will be too much for you or you won't be able to do this sport with that dog. Most times those nay sayers have been wrong and had I listened to them rather then trying, I would never know what my dogs or myself were capable of doing. I was a clueless first time dog owner but I searched out info, read all I could, attended training classes, then joined a SchH club and watched the best trainers there and learned from watching them work their dogs. There was no hand holding back then! Which is why at our club we try to educate new handlers as it is a lot longer road doing it alone..but it can be done if you just watch and learn and try things out for yourself. Never be afraid to try.

If a new handler is in a good club there shouldn't be any reason as to why the person can't handle a strong working dog as their first. We have brand new handlers with dogs now that other clubs told them were too much, and the handlers are proving themselves to be able to handle those dogs quite nicely. Nearly as good as any of us could do. We have all started out clueless in dog training, and in my opinion I'd rather a new person start out with a good working dog rather then a dog that is mediocre. You can always improve your handling but you can't improve on a dog unsuitable for the sport.

Worse case scenario is the person can't keep up with the dog and dog is re homed. This happens all the time and top handlers are always looking for good green dogs, so if you know early enough that you can't deal with the dog you have, sell him.
No shame in that, a lot of my favourite dogs have come from other people who found those dogs to be too much to handle.


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

That seems to be a fair and logical approach to such a circumstance.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

Joby are you needing help? LOL


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## Amber Fort (Aug 18, 2012)

I have been out of Schutzhund for about 12 or so years so haven't seen this but believe it can happen on occasion. It happened to me.

I had just started into training dogs and my first pup was a no name black German Shepherd, that I bought as pup. He was true learning experience for me.

He did great obedience, loved to track, was 75 pounds of terror in protection work. He wasn't a frantic dog, just the real deal. As I was just starting with bite work, I was not strong enough mentally to handle this dog. On the advice of my trainer and my own realization, this dog was just way to much for me to handle. We sold him to a gun shop as a guard dog where he successfully prevented several break ins.

I have since learned to handle dogs this strong and in looking back, know that if I were more experienced at the time, could have handled this one. 

Now after a several year break from schutzhund, I am getting back into schutzhund with a new German Shepherd female, who I think will do well at the sport.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

After we decided that a Fila Brasileiro was what we wanted, we contacted the breeder who we had seen from afar at a dog show nearby. Beate lived in Germany not far from us and we went to visit her. She had a riding stables and told us to wait in an empty paddock. Two Filas came out and I waited until they came up to us, and spoke to them, before stroking them.

As I thought, it was a test and we passed it. Beate gave us a lot of advice on how to handle the Fila for the first 12 months.

The first GSD I bought, I visited the breeder, again in Germany, and admitted that I had only worked one dog to IPO3. Some haven't even done that he said. I got the dog but it was far more difficult than the Fila to handle. Similar character but speedier. The breeder was our helper in Schutzdienst and gave me many valuable tips but fell prey to a pretty blonde and left the dog sport scene. The younger GSD was from him, too but Toni handled him and the breeder mocked him for his inexperience. The dog was good but Toni wasn't and the breeder was probably narked that we taken a good dog....

I think that there are really serious breeders around (I cannot speak for overseas) and in the clubs one very often gets the help one needs in choosing a pup.

What I have noticed over the years is that a lot of the trainers, handlers, breeders, etc. can read dogs and are extremely good at training handlers, but when it comes to reading people they have no idea. In fact some are purely anti-social. However, it's no skin off my nose - I take the good advice and leave them off my "must have to Dinner list".


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## jim stevens (Jan 30, 2012)

Nicole Stark said:


> Yes this is the truth about most people. On this forum alone I have encountered more two faced, liars then any place I can think of. Its those who profess to be without ego, different, ethical, etc. and do so almost emphatically that in fact are exactly the polar opposite.
> 
> If desire to buy a dog from someone I can't find a common ground or can't become friends with then clearly I am dealing with the wrong individual.


Seen it many times with horses. I honestly think you either have the firm foundation to extract discipline from an animal or a child or you don't. People with the knack for handling animals know what I'm talking about. I am not rough, with a horse, dog, or a youngster, but when I am disciplining/correcting them, they understand why, and what caused the correction. I am not very experienced with training working dogs, but I do understand a zero tolerance program with relation to being obeyed by an animal. It has often been said that teaching a horse the right way to do something takes a thousand reps. Teaching them the wrong thing takes once, and they remember it forever. Dogs are smarter than horses. If there isn't a consequence for bad behavior, a dog will pick it up quicker. The odd thing is that a dog, horse, or child even, will love and respect the one that teaches and reinforces the right things, more than one that lets them get away with improper behavior.

As a youngster working horses on cattle, I was taught from the start, if he turns left without you guiding him that way, turn him right, even if you want to go left, just so the horse knows that you are running the show. Dogs, kids, aren't any different. They want someone to guide them along the way, and will work harder and do more for you if they have that respect.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Gillian Schuler said:


> After we decided that a Fila Brasileiro was what we wanted, we contacted the breeder who we had seen from afar at a dog show nearby. Beate lived in Germany not far from us and we went to visit her. She had a riding stables and told us to wait in an empty paddock. Two Filas came out and I waited until they came up to us, and spoke to them, before stroking them.
> 
> As I thought, it was a test and we passed it. Beate gave us a lot of advice on how to handle the Fila for the first 12 months.
> 
> ...


the Fila was popular for a while here years ago...

people got them, that did not live on farms, but in neighborhoods and cities. people that were not prepared for the full ojeriza temperment.

I read all kinds of stories of people getting attacked, and bitten. because people could not control their animals, or keep others safe from them.

then these people called the dogs crazy...lol and put them down in many cases..


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## John Campbell (Jul 25, 2010)

This is not at all limited to the working dog world.

How many people in the pet world have you seen complain about the Beagle that wont shut up, the English Bulldog that wont stop snoring and farting, the Dalmatian that hates their children, the Australian Shepherd that bites at their children's feet, on and on.

A lot of peoples research on an animal before purchase consisted of hours and hours of Google image and You Tube puppy videos. 

We have a great pet store here in VA beach with a fully grown Asian Water Monitor inside as a store pet. When someone wants one of the cute little baby one's they show them the grown version lol. It will grow up and be able to kill and eat your dog/kids/you. really cuts down on the impulse buyers.


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## Howard Gaines III (Dec 26, 2007)

I see the dog or type as an extension of the handler. For some, the dog may have MORE energy than they can handle. To this point, "I'll give you fifty dollars for it."


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

I still say the dog is also an extension of his breeding and breeder and there is a tremendous responsibility to assure that the dog gets in the right hands or to take it back and get it in the right hands. Otherwise dog ends up in a shelter or rescue. You can have all the outside support you want but if you can't exude it from within, then the relationship doesn' work. Your club members don't spend 24/7 with you. I'm not for the take it and if it doesn' work, rehome frame of mind. I place a dog with the intention that that is where it is going to spend the rest of its life. I'm here for support for the rest of its little life. 

T


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## Harry Keely (Aug 26, 2009)

Joby Becker said:


> I wonder here in the states, what scale of influence that training clubs or training directors have over the choices of dogs that people get.
> 
> I have heard of this happening and have seen it with my own eyes, where someone pushes someone else into getting a dog or even a pup, that they should not have gotten, either from breeders associated with the club, or from a breeder that a club member owns a dog from, a vendor, or just from another breeder of dogs.
> 
> I know it is ultimately the persons choice on what dog or pup they end up getting, but I have seen suggestive people get pushed into something they were not ready for. So I am guessing it plays a role in a certain % of cases.


Hopely not to much a club has over the persons money on a dog, there would be even less mal / dutch in sport than there is now and more dam GSD ](*,)8):lol:;-)


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