# Talk about a bad day.



## Jeff Oehlsen

Check out the dog at the end of the video. Not funny, great decoy work.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2FFb4of4F0A


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## Michelle Reusser

That was pretty good decoy work. Hard to find quick guys that stick around or don't slow down with age...lol. Hope my TD doesn't read this.


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## Julie Ann Alvarez

Wow- That was cool.

Julie


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Love to see some of the die hard PP people go up against some of these guys. Somehow I see the ending of that, being a lot like this video.


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## Michelle Reusser

Nah Jeff. I always have to wonder why the dogs don't engage. I didn't really see anything out of the ordinary pressure wise, they are fast and good with the stick but if a dog can't hang with what those guys dished out...I'd rehome the damn dog. PP, Police, or whatever sport your in.


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## Kyle Sprag

Michelle Kehoe said:


> Nah Jeff. I always have to wonder why the dogs don't engage. I didn't really see anything out of the ordinary pressure wise, they are fast and good with the stick but if a dog can't hang with what those guys dished out...I'd rehome the damn dog. PP, Police, or whatever sport your in.


 
It is quite obvious from your statement you have little to NO experience working dogs and even less from the working end of that critter.

Standing like a post holding a line is not working a dog.


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## Michelle Reusser

Kyle Sprag said:


> It is quite obvious from your statement you have little to NO experience working dogs and even less from the working end of that critter.
> 
> Standing like a post holding a line is not working a dog.


And where did I say "I" work dogs? I'm a handler not a trainer. I do however pay attention when I'm waiting my turn and watch what the decoys are doing and ask questions when it's over, if I have any. That guy had good presense but if that's going to run a dog it has no business on the field anyway. That is regardless off breed or sport. I'm not one of the people who thinks every dog or team needs to be out there.


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## Michelle Reusser

It did say final right? Not just a club trial and it's this guys job to take points from the dog? Iv'e only been to a couple ring trials but this guy did a good job I think and would like to see this kinda pressure more often than not, especially at the finals level. Training, maybe not but trials, yes. 

Kyle I think you may have taken my post out of context. I'm speaking from at that level. The dogs should be OK with that kind of work, if not, they should be expossed. That is the name of the game correct?


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## Kyle Sprag

Michelle Kehoe said:


> And where did I say "I" work dogs? I'm a handler not a trainer. I do however pay attention when I'm waiting my turn and watch what the decoys are doing and ask questions when it's over, if I have any. That guy had good presense but if that's going to run a dog it has no business on the field anyway. That is regardless off breed or sport. I'm not one of the people who thinks every dog or team needs to be out there.


 
Like I wrote, you have no-clue! :roll:


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## Sam Bishop

Woo hoo! Love French Ring Thanks for the video - some beautiful decoy work! Please don't let this turn into another diatribe on the virtues of one sport over another - that dog felt pressure - stick in the face is pressure!


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## Kyle Sprag

"Kyle I think you may have taken my post out of context. I'm speaking from at that level. The dogs should be OK with that kind of work, if not, they should be expossed. That is the name of the game correct?"

Of course the dogs are exposed to the work, non-the-less there are any one of a number of reasons for something like what that video showed. Many reasons other that a crap dog!


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## Khoi Pham

Yeah the dog just don't have enough drive and nerve to punch through the pressure, his target was the leg and it was taking away by the fast stick work, I wonder how this dog got into the final in the first place?


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## Kyle Sprag

always nice to see all the tough critiques with even tougher dogs who have never competed past a entry level.


A lot of people would be quite suprised as to some of the stumblings and lack luster performances of what many consider TOP dogs in many of the Favorite Sport Venues. :-\" :-\" :-\"


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## Carol Boche

Okay, I know nothing about French Ring.....and the dog that did not engage surprised me and my first thought would be (well..actually was).....SHITTER....

So, instead of thinking that thought and not asking because I am afraid of looking dumb ....can someone explain the rules a bit so I can understand it?


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## Kyle Sprag

that face attack looked bad.........looked to me when he/she did not stick the initial bite it went down hill. This does happen for a number of reasons.

There was nothing outside the rules there, it was great decoy work and reading of the dog.


My point is that is ONE small glimps of a dogs career. Anyone who says they have never seen their dog/do something in training and/or trial that they didn't like or questioned has not done much, is blind or full of it!


Dogs have bad days


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## Michelle Reusser

Kyle Sprag said:


> that face attack looked bad.........looked to me when he/she did not stick the initial bite it went down hill. This does happen for a number of reasons.
> 
> There was nothing outside the rules there, it was great decoy work and reading of the dog.
> 
> 
> My point is that is ONE small glimps of a dogs career. Anyone who says they have never seen their dog/do something in training and/or trial that they didn't like or questioned has not done much, is blind or full of it!
> 
> 
> Dogs have bad days


Are you like PMSing today because nobody called the dog a crapper. Personally I'd get a new dog (if at that level), my dog decided to quit, that's just the way it is and the way I am. You can agree or not and belittling my opinion because I don't have a dog titled to a 3... well whatever. I'm not for making excuses for my dog. Has he done some shit I wished he did differently? Sure but he never just stopped and refused to work. No one said their dog was perfect or that this dog was shit. I'm just saying it's not what I'd want to see in my own dog and I wouldn't breed a dog that quit. I'm not looking for 100% points and yeah my dog is used as my PPD, so it's imperative he doesn't decided some dude is just too much and leave me hanging. But as someone else said, let's not make it about this sport or that sport or PP crap. I've got my reasons and my standards and I wont lower them because they offended you or whoever else.


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## Kyle Sprag

Michelle Kehoe said:


> Are you like PMSing today because nobody called the dog a crapper. Personally I'd get a new dog (if at that level), my dog decided to quit, that's just the way it is and the way I am. You can agree or not and belittling my opinion because I don't have a dog titled to a 3... well whatever. I'm not for making excuses for my dog. Has he done some shit I wished he did differently? Sure but he never just stopped and refused to work. No one said their dog was perfect or that this dog was shit. I'm just saying it's not what I'd want to see in my own dog and I wouldn't breed a dog that quit. I'm not looking for 100% points and yeah my dog is used as my PPD, so it's imperative he doesn't decided some dude is just too much and leave me hanging. But as someone else said, let's not make it about this sport or that sport or PP crap. I've got my reasons and my standards and I wont lower them because they offended you or whoever else.


You have little to NO foundation to base a "standard" on.


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## Connie Sutherland

Come on, folks. Flaming as a second topic in the thread is so boring to everyone else.


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## Michelle Reusser

LOL well thanks for letting me know. =D> 

No matter what I have done in my life, there was always somebody just like you trying to talk down to me. Oh your a girl, oh your too young, oh you don't have enough experience, oh you can't do that! I don't bat an eye anymore. I've never failed at anything I have wanted to do. I may not be the best but I don't try for THE BEST, just whats best FOR ME. I'm surely not doing dog sport to win trophies or bragging rights and I don't give 2 shits for anybodies opinion of me or what I do with my dog. 

Did you wake up this morning with a need to put someone in their place? What's the matter, Emillios posts are no longer enough enteratinment? Why are you trying to pick a fight with me, when I don't care enough to get riled?

Yeah I'm done Connie.


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## Carol Boche

Michelle Kehoe said:


> Yeah I'm done Connie.


No no....wait.....if you would, could you please enlighten me on some of the rules and reasoning behind what happened? [-o< 

I'm not interested in the posts Kyle is throwing out, since they are nothing but "I am better than you" posts, but rather, I want to learn as this has me curious.....



Thanks


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## ann schnerre

geez, watching that made me wish i could loose about 30 yrs and go play w/the dogs...

1) in the object guard,when the dog just stood there calmly even when the decoy "threw" dirt or whatever at her/him and didn't respond until after the decoy actually snatched the basket: is that good? at least til the decoy snatched the basket? i liked it until then--the dog was watching, but not "guarding" i think.

2) i'm no expert, but i happen to love esquives, and if there was any kind of ring sport club around here i'd be doing that....at any rate, those decoys were good, right? would anyone PLEASE talk me thru just why those guys are so good (other than being young and athletic)?


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## Kyle Sprag

"I'm not interested in the posts Kyle is throwing out, since they are nothing but "I am better than you" posts, but rather, I want to learn as this has me curious....."


Huh, I am simply stating facts. No better no worse.#-o 

I believe I answered the question and posted more than enough of my position.


You learn a lot more standing on the working end of a dog.

Most people that mention a "TD" I wan't to slap!


The control and training of such can have some unexpected results at times, this is just one example of ?????????? what could have happened. No different than a dog refusing one of the jumps.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

I'm too trying to figure it out if its not the obvious [dog can't handle the pressure]. Is it a question of not enough scenario training; he only bites one leg and won't go through the stick; what????

Terrasita


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## Michelle Reusser

Kyle Sprag said:


> "I'm not interested in the posts Kyle is throwing out, since they are nothing but "I am better than you" posts, but rather, I want to learn as this has me curious....."
> 
> 
> Huh, I am simply stating facts. No better no worse.#-o
> 
> I believe I answered the question and posted more than enough of my position.
> 
> 
> You learn a lot more standing on the working end of a dog.
> 
> Most people that mention a "TD" I wan't to slap!
> 
> 
> The control and training of such can have some unexpected results at times, this is just one example of ?????????? what could have happened. No different than a dog refusing one of the jumps.


 
No I think allmighty Kyle, we are all awaiting your expert skills, what is the legit excuse/reason this particular dog "quit"? Obviously you didn't answer the question, people are still asking. All you have stated is that you know more because you stand in front of the dog, not behind it! So explain! What do you see that makes this OK? Mentioning a TD is horrible why? Because you would never admit to needing to ask one anything? I'd love to see you "try" to slap me.

So let me get this right...a dog refusing to jump, sit or down is in the same catagory as refusing to engage?  We must have VERY different types of dogs because mine LIVES to engage the decoy and nobody I know or train with feels that way, this is what these dogs are, live and train for.

I have seen some dogs think, hesitate, run around looking for a better attack but to just give up? Nothing is uglier than that. I must be just really hard but if it was my own kid out there playing ball or dancing and she just quit, I'd pack her ass up and take her home too. Done, I'm not wasting further $ or time so you can quit on me and yourself. Call me the hardass of the year or whatever, that's just the way it is in my world.


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## Carol Boche

Kyle Sprag said:


> Huh, I am simply stating facts. No better no worse.#-o
> 
> I believe I answered the question and posted more than enough of my position.


Ya know, Kyle, I apologize....my post was pretty shitty to you and I shouldn't have said that. 
I have just been reading so many posts that are basically "bantering" or "picking" at people and I think I am just, well, tired of it. 

Is there any way that there can be conversations that are not full of "you don't know jack" comments? 

I know that if you have three dog trainers there is only one definite....that two of them will agree the third does not know what they are doing.....but does it have to be that way in every thread? 

I am really curious as to learning what may have happened with that dog. 
Too much pressure? Or did the dog have a bad day? 

I think it was stated here before but that is an important event from the sounds of it and I would think, after reading some of these posts, that the dog just had a bad day.....if not, how did he get to that level of competition?


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## ann schnerre

so can we get past the garbage, and address the issue? or even answer the questions that i put up? if not, fine, but i really would like some enlightenment (sp?) per the original post.


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## Max Orsi

It is funny how the people with the least amount of experience (Active participation in events or activities, leading to the accumulation of knowledge or skill) are always the hadest of critic.

Still learning

Max


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## Carol Boche

Max Orsi said:


> It is funny how the people with the least amount of experience (Active participation in events or activities, leading to the accumulation of knowledge or skill) are always the hadest of critic.
> 
> Still learning
> 
> Max


I am trying to learn.....that is why I asked questions....I have no opinion, other than what I stated coming from my LIMITED experience, one way or the other......and so far.....nothing has been offered for answers.


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## Max Orsi

My post is not directed to you, carol.

The answers are on the field. They cannot be given on the internet. or during a conversation.

Experiences is the mother of all teachers.

I don't mean to be rude, it's just the way it is.

Still learning

Max


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## Mo Earle

they have some great decoys in Mexico..feel for the poor handler that saw his dog run off the field-takes a ton of training time and competing time to get to that level....-I bet they sent that dog to the ol' pound.


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## Kyle Sprag

Michelle Kehoe said:


> No I think allmighty Kyle, we are all awaiting your expert skills, what is the legit excuse/reason this particular dog "quit"? Obviously you didn't answer the question, people are still asking. All you have stated is that you know more because you stand in front of the dog, not behind it! So explain! What do you see that makes this OK? Mentioning a TD is horrible why? Because you would never admit to needing to ask one anything? I'd love to see you "try" to slap me.
> 
> So let me get this right...a dog refusing to jump, sit or down is in the same catagory as refusing to engage?  We must have VERY different types of dogs because mine LIVES to engage the decoy and nobody I know or train with feels that way, this is what these dogs are, live and train for.
> 
> I have seen some dogs think, hesitate, run around looking for a better attack but to just give up? Nothing is uglier than that. I must be just really hard but if it was my own kid out there playing ball or dancing and she just quit, I'd pack her ass up and take her home too. Done, I'm not wasting further $ or time so you can quit on me and yourself. Call me the hardass of the year or whatever, that's just the way it is in my world.


 
of course MR. Kehoe you know it all......=D>


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## Kyle Sprag

Max Orsi said:


> My post is not directed to you, carol.
> 
> The answers are on the field. They cannot be given on the internet. or during a conversation.
> 
> Experiences is the mother of all teachers.
> 
> I don't mean to be rude, it's just the way it is.
> 
> Still learning
> 
> Max


 
Yeh, what Max wrote


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## ann schnerre

i agree that there's no substitute for going out on the field; however, i also feel that, given a video, a person (ie, ME) can perhaps learn a little bit from it.

if not, why bother posting? and if it's too much trouble to address questions, then DON'T. 

sorry, but it pisses me off when i'm trying to learn and someone disses the method. i try to use a, shall we say,a multi-functional, approach to learning. this incorporates both video, but mostly hands-on training. ie, i train my dog, but i'm not averse to looking/learning from other ppl. 

rant over.


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## Mike Schoonbrood

Oh good lord, do you people read what you write before you hit the Post button?

The next person to post something on this thread other than a comment on the video, a step by step observation and analysis of what happened to the dog at the end, or something to make me laugh, gets an automatic 24 hour ban from the forum.

This is probably the most useless commentary I've read in a while and its spanned 4 pages!


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## ann schnerre

don't ban me Mike--i''m trying to "get" something fr the whole business!

and i would STILL like to learn something...


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## Al Curbow

I watched the ending 5 times and the dog ran away, doesn't take massive insightfulness to see that, LOL Only the dog knows the reason.........I'm ready for my 24 hours off


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## Jenn Schoonbrood

Something to make you laugh?

So, this guy walks into a bar... Ouch.

I liked the video. The decoy at the end clearly pushed the dog. A stick like that between the decoy and the dog is pressure. But, having known dogs that'll kick it up a notch and drive full-bore into the unprotected chest of a "helper" that's abusing them with a bloody trash can lid to the head, I don't think it's TOO MUCH to expect of a dog to remain in the fight under that sort of pressure. I wouldn't want to keep a dog that couldn't.

As far as THAT DOG, chalk it up to genetics, or training (though even arguably crappy training has a hard time ruining a GOOD dog) but I just don't buy the "bad day". I've had good dogs that had bad days in obedience, maybe even bad days on their outs. I wouldn't consider a dog worth his salt if a "bad day" made him run like that, I don't care what sort of pressure it was.

Edit: While I like a dog that matures quickly enough that it's not an issue, I'll add here that IF the dog was relatively young, from lines that are slow to mature, maybe he'd still grow into himself. But that's the only consideration I'd make personally.


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## Mike Schoonbrood

Keeping in mind that its a SPORT. The big question to me is: if the dog goes back to the training field, gets worked on, and doesn't run the next time.

Does that mean:

a. The dog doesn't suck, he just had a gap in his training?

b. The dog is weak, but good training covers up the weakness?

c. The dog is entitled to the points because he followed the rules of the SPORT.

d. The dog isn't entitled to the points he earns because he's already shown that he can be run off.

Thoughts?


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## Geoff Empey

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> I'm too trying to figure it out if its not the obvious [dog can't handle the pressure]. Is it a question of not enough scenario training; he only bites one leg and won't go through the stick; what????


The decoy is Fernando Dosta arguably the best Trial Decoy in the world at this present time. Just to put in context who the dog was up against. 

To hopefully answer Terrasita's and Carole's question. 

*From the New Ring Rule book* 

-----<_Once the decoy has turned around at the judge’s signal, he or she shall face the dog, begin the barrage and prepare his or her defense according to the dog’s behavior. The decoy must assume a menacing attitude while taking into consideration the dog’s behavior, and must never be static. (Chapitre 4, p. 39, Attaque mordante de face au bâton)

The decoy must always respect the instructions given by the judge during the dog in white. (Chapitre 4, p. 39, Attaque mordante de face au bâton)

If the dog, after the command to attack, strays from its task, it will have 20 seconds to engage the decoy. If, after 20 seconds, the dog has not engaged the decoy, the exercise will be terminated. (Chapitre 4, p. 39, Attaque mordante de face au bâton)

If the dog does not show any hesitation to bite, the decoy may use any of the following tactics in his or her defense. In all cases, the decoy must absorb the impact of the dog’s entry. (Chapitre 4, p. 40, Attaque mordante de face au bâton)

Remove the barrage at the last second to prevent any injury to the dog, while offering the dog the least possible opportunity to bite. The decoy may not in any case touch the dog with his or her hands or the baton before the dog is biting.

Take a maximum of three lateral steps to esquive the dog, while always facing the dog and maintaining the barrage in order to avoid a brutal impact while creating an additional difficulty in requiring the dog again to come through the barrage.

Use the arms to block the dog to make it more difficult for the dog to get a grip without pushing it back (except after esquiving in Ring III).

If the dog slows down or appears hesitant, the decoy may do the following (Chapitre 4, p. 40, Attaque mordante de face au bâton):

Charge or advance toward the dog, provided that the charge is not brutal, and does not turn into a foot race or a chase.

Keep the dog at a distance by means of menacing behavior._---------->

Basically with French Ring the foundation is all legs and a lot of dogs don't get introduced to upper body until much later in the game as the pressure doesn't increase with baton opposition until level 2. As well there is only 3 exercises out of all French Ring exercises that utilize the baton. Face Attack, Flee and Stop attack (in which there is no stick hits but it just mimics the Face Attack in its setup) So there is only really 2 exercises that utilize the baton. The dog that Dosta ran in the video still may have had a passing score. As that exercise is worth 30 points out of 400 in Ring 3. Though those 30 lost points may have nixed the dog chances, mathematically it was still possible to pass .. :-\" 

Arm bites are usually trained as a counter to stick opposition but for the most part Ring dogs go for the leg as that is where the foundation training is. They will go for the chest exploding out of basket garde or take something else on the suit depending on decoy movement and the dog's continued training. But the dogs do need to be trained specific techniques and/or conditioned to counter the stick. 

We work the stick into our training by setting the dog up holding the dog back in its harness and placing the baton in different positions i.e. across the chest and conditioning the dog to go to the forearm, chest whatever is available. As well I've seen dogs that are so hard out there they don't care about stick hits and will push through the stick to the leg anyways. 

This is one of our club dogs who has done both upper body and lower body conditioning. It is attack with revolver but the entry is the same for this dog. Capo as you see doesn't give a rat's butt about going upstairs without any hesitation. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sO171qdS70 

Here is another video with Marc Villain showing leg bites and the visible pulling of the baton when it shows the dog is committed to the bite on the leg. (according to the rules above) The leg bites start @ 1:10 showing pivot work. Then @ 2:40 you'll see some arm bites. What I like about this video is it shows slo-mo as well so you can see both the dogs and decoys techniques. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d_54kJ3EeNA The video is over 8 minutes long and covers a lot more French Ring techniques than just leg and arm bites but it worth it to watch for anyone interested.


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## Jenn Schoonbrood

I feel there's a HUGE difference if we're discussing sport as just a sport (that people enjoy participating in, and their accomplishments should be celebrated) versus discussing sport as a breeding test. It invariably becomes the latter, because people generally breed pedigrees.


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## Geoff Empey

Mike Schoonbrood said:


> a. The dog doesn't suck, he just had a gap in his training?
> 
> b. The dog is weak, but good training covers up the weakness?
> 
> c. The dog is entitled to the points because he followed the rules of the SPORT.
> 
> d. The dog isn't entitled to the points he earns because he's already shown that he can be run off.
> Thoughts?


a. Gap in his training it is obvious ... 

b. maybe .. but if he does the exercise properly with the same decoy same scenario is he actually weak? I don't think so. 

c. Exercise done according to the rules to the satisfaction of the judge = entitlement .. no doubt. 

d. If the dog is not run off again, refer to c.


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## ann schnerre

the question that comes to mind re: the dog that's 'run', well i don't think jeff posted the vid just to highlight the dog being run off.

can we, as a forum, truly address the issue?


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## Carol Boche

Mike Schoonbrood said:


> Oh good lord, do you people read what you write before you hit the Post button?


Welllll, no, and that is why I apologized.....

Geoff....THANK YOU!!!! That was mostly what I was looking for. 

I understand that most learning is done on the field....however there is not a field in South Dakota....so I learn from the knowledgeable people here.....

Taking my 24..............


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Everytime I hear some dumbass trainer say they need to push their dogs into defense, every time I hear someone miss use the word pressure, everytime I hear "to the brink of avoidance, but we brought them back"

This video is for you. This is what your dog will look like on Fernando Dosta. You can tell me that FR is all prey, and bla bla bla, but that is what your dog will look like. Standing and considering running, and not biting.

I just thought after all the bullshit that has been spewed on this forum lately, I would post an example of what your dumb-ass "THEORY" on dog training will get you.

Other than calling Fernando, and having him work your dog like this and showing the video PROVING that you are right, I don't particularly need to hear shit from any of you. LOL

This is what happens at a high level. The pressure comes from EVERYWHERE for the dog.


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## Kadi Thingvall

Without knowing the dog, the trainer, past trial results, decoys he's trialed against, etc I wouldn't even try to guess what happened with this specific dog at this specific moment. I don't know if he has a history of this type of problem, if it was the first time it's ever happened, etc.

However, I've seen plenty of dogs prepared for French Ring competition, both big trials and club level trials. Ring is one of, if not the only, sport where I have seen people in training happy because their dog is outing early, hesitating to go, etc in a session. The attitude being "tomorrow, or next week, or whenever, when the leash and collar are off, he'll be perfect". It's hard for a dog to be king kong when he's got that much stress coming not just from the decoy but also from the handler. 

If the dog isn't 100% solid on it's options when coming into this type of attack (go over the stick into the arm/chest) and repeatedly tries to get the leg, taking repeated hits in the face in addition to having the target removed, 15 seconds can be a LONG time for the dog to keep trying. Especially with a decoy as agile as Fernando, many dogs are going to have a hard time catching him. In a perfect world the dog would never give up, in the real world sometimes they discover their breaking point at the most inopportune moments.

Both Fernando and Manuel (the decoy in the red/white suit with the hand on it) are in the US on a semi-regular basis, plus there are other excellent FR decoys who live and/or visit here. I'm sure many of them would be happy to test the dogs of the people who want them to. Just tell them you want a Coupe level FRIII face attack. I think people would be surprised at just how many dogs don't get through and into the bite, I'd be curious how many actually would trash their dog afterwards. I've seen dogs from BR, MR, PSA, Sch, PPD, PSD, etc all held off or run on an FR face attack. Course I've also seen it happen to FR dogs.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Thanks Kadi & Geoff for putting it all into perspective. The dog had a look of confusion once he felt that particular side eliminated. It was as if he didn't think he had any options. I can see the decoy doing just what is set out in the rules Geoff quoted. 

Terrasita


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## Jeff Oehlsen

So next time you want some defense on your dog, have a look at the video. : )


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## Khoi Pham

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> So next time you want some defense on your dog, have a look at the video. : )


It wasn't much defense at first, it was more like a fend off with the stick, the decoy was backing away from the dog blocking the leg target with the stick, when the decoy realized that this dog has no drive to punch through and don't know or wasn't trained that he can bite other target, that is when he ceased the opportunity and took advantage and step it up and move forward and raising the stick higher with real threat this time and so the dog high tail out of there, that is how I see it.


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## Erik Berg

Are the decoys allowed to hit the dogs in the face with the stick in FR?


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## Khoi Pham

No that is not allow.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Jeff, 

I'm not sure if you are speaking in general or responding to my post but I'm more in the camp of "why" defense for SPORT, especially since it can do more harm than good, or so it appears. I'm especially concerned with defense on a dog before maturity and I don't believe dogs start to mature until they are getting closer to age 3--at least that's been the case with mine. There are changes in the dog at 18 months, 3, and 5 with Age 5 being mecca. I've been trying to figure out to what degree defense training is necessary given the particular sport. That got complicated when no two people [other than J & J Lyda] could agree on what defense is. Like I said in trying to learn to develop an eye for this stuff I've been trying to figure out if you can watch this video and tell that its an issue of bad defense training. If so, what's the dead giveaway. It appeared to me the dog was stuck on one leg and the decoy figured it out. Does prey work so condition a dog that he can win, he knows nothing else? I'm sure this assumes he is solid nerve-wise and in general temperament. I believe Jay has said that dogs trained for any function including police work can be done in prey. But again, back to the definition thing, I wasn't sure if that includes pressure/stress [but not defense?] and then to what degree. No matter how you define it if you combined your comments, J & J Lyda, Howard Knauf, etc., I think that could keep someone from screwing up where this is concerned.

Terrasita


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## Jeff Oehlsen

I see your point. Like always threads take on a life of their own.


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## Kadi Thingvall

Erik Berg said:


> Are the decoys allowed to hit the dogs in the face with the stick in FR?


Are they allowed to, no. Does it happen, yes. I've included the rules regarding this below. But it's kind of a catch 22 in the rules. The decoy is supposed to pull the barrage at the last possible second to avoid hittin g the dog in the head as it comes through. But at the same time the decoy shouldn't pull the barrage early and LET the dog through (in the higher levels, in Brevet they do). So while they are in the middle of this very fast paced "dance" with the dog, they are trying to prevent the dog from biting at all, trying to read/react to the dog to put the right type of pressure in the right spot and NOT let up on the pressure, but also supposed to be ready to "open" the barrage if the dog really commits to coming through it. 

This is the purpose of the esquive also. It's not to "make prey" as many people think, to make the dog want to chase even more. It's to take away from the dog all the momentum he's built up as he's running 40 meters down the field. It's one thing for a dog running full speed to just blow right through the threat, stick, accessory, whatever. It's a completely different thing when that dog is esquived and now he's got to turn around and come back and try to push through with maybe 10 feet to build up some momentum. It's approximately the difference between the dog moving at 5-10 MPH and 30 MPH. A dog that turns around and finds the decoy right there in front of his face with a huge barrage is kind of like someone throwing some water in your face, now find your target and bite. You better not take time to think about it, you better just react and grab the right thing, or you may never be able to visually even find what you are looking for. 




4.4.11 If the dog does not show any hesitation to bite, the decoy may use any of the following
tactics in his or her defense. ​​*In all cases, the decoy must absorb the impact of the
dog’s entry. *(Chapitre 4, p. 40, Attaque mordante de face au bâton)
4.4.11.1 Remove the barrage at the last second to prevent any injury to the dog, while
offering the dog the least possible opportunity to bite. The decoy may not in
any case touch the dog with his or her hands or the baton before the dog is
biting.
4.4.11.2 Take a maximum of three lateral steps to esquive the dog, while always facing
the dog and maintaining the barrage in order to avoid a brutal impact while
creating an additional difficulty in requiring the dog again to come through the
barrage.
4.4.11.3 Use the arms to block the dog to make it more difficult for the dog to get a grip
without pushing it back (except after esquiving in Ring III).
4.4.12 If the dog slows down or appears hesitant, the decoy may do the following (Chapitre 4,
p. 40, Attaque mordante de face au bâton):
4.4.12.1 Charge or advance toward the dog, provided that the charge is not brutal, and
does not turn into a foot race or a chase.
4.4.12.2 Keep the dog at a distance by means of menacing behavior.
4.4.13 If the dog comes off the bite during the attack, the decoy may do the following (Chapitre
4, p. 40, Attaque mordante de face au bâton):
4.4.13.1 Charge the dog with a maximum of three steps.
4.4.13.2 Begin again the barrage.
4.4.13.3 Keep the dog at a distance with a threatening demeanor. The decoy’s attitude​
should continue to provoke the dog to show it that the exercise is not finished.


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## Lisa Geller

Fernando is such a great decoy --
thanks for posting this Jeff

:razz:


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## jay lyda

The only question that I have is at what point or not at any point is the decoy allowed to go into a training mode to get the dog back on the bite so the dog does not leave the field a loser. It was obvious to see when the dog had decided that he was not going to engage, maybe the vid was cut short and did not show this part but the way that the decoy threw the stick as if to say "yeah run, Im done with you", it lead me to believe that the dog was not brought back. What is FRs rule on this? Does it depend on the level, or is this something that does not happen in FR during a trial?


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## Chris Keister

It has been awhile since I have done ring sport so Kadi can correct me if I am wrong.......

No there is no "let the dog get the win" in Ring Sport. It is up to the trainer to try and figure out what went wrong and what they need to do to fix the dog. 

I always find it humorous when people talk smack about ring sport or say it is all prey and "just a game" (which all dog sports are), or when people with limited experience or experience in only one venue comment on this kind of stuff. They just do not understand or comprehend the pressure that is put on a dog at these top levels. 

Unless you have one of those rare top 10% dogs and/or have a butt-load of great training, this is what your dog will look like if put up against a decoy like Dosta or some of the top guys in France. 

PS Kadi, great job of explaining things.


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## Tina Rempel

Slightly OT here. I like to watch the really good helpers in any of the dog sports. Those guys make it look so natural. The truely good dogs shine through. The on the edge dogs are exposed to which edge they are tettering on. They deserve the good comments people give. =D>

When I take Ccatti anywhere, or we have other helpers and TD's come to our club, if they are good safe handlers I tell them give her everything you've got. She hasnt disappointed any of us yet. Most walk off with a smile. She's not FR trained just one tough bitch that gets mad and goes in harder. Those are the fun ones to work. \\/


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## Kyle Sprag

jay lyda said:


> The only question that I have is at what point or not at any point is the decoy allowed to go into a training mode to get the dog back on the bite so the dog does not leave the field a loser. It was obvious to see when the dog had decided that he was not going to engage, maybe the vid was cut short and did not show this part but the way that the decoy threw the stick as if to say "yeah run, Im done with you", it lead me to believe that the dog was not brought back. What is FRs rule on this? Does it depend on the level, or is this something that does not happen in FR during a trial?


Knowing a bit about Ring, at the end the dog was held off for long enough and the dog was recalled back. The recall is when the video ends, when the dog runs back to where it was sent, the handler.



As for the rest of your question, depends on the judge. The decoy takes his instructions from the judge.


Like Kadi wrote, sh!t happens. Here is a nice head shot on accident.


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## jay lyda

Thanks Kyle.


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## Kadi Thingvall

Like Kyle said, it depends on the judge. However, in the rules, if the decoy can run the dog, they are supposed to. They aren't allowed to chase the dog all the way off the field (ie the dog turns and runs, and the decoy literally chases it) but they are allowed, and supposed, to keep that dog off just like the decoy in the video did. And they can make those short "charges" (just a few steps) towards the dog if he's thinking about re-engaging, to convince him he doesn't really want to.

In Brevet, I've seen judges give the dog a "win bite" after the decoy has made it very obvious the dog isn't going to bite, or isn't going to stay in the bite. However, the judge also makes it clear to the handler they are done, just because the dog bit doesn't mean they get points. And I've only seen some judges do this, others even in Brevet have taken an "it is what it is" attitude. I don't think I've ever seen this in FRI, and definitely not in FRII or FRIII. 

I have also seen a judge approach a handler and ask them, kind of pointedly, if they want to abandon the trial when the judge sees the dog is having serious difficulty with the level of work, and feels it would be in the dogs best interest to stop before things got to ugly. But it's the handlers call, and honestly when the dog has a handler who needs the judge to point out the dog is going to get run pretty soon, they generally don't take the hint because they don't see the problem. Once again though this is in the lower levels, in the upper levels it's "play the game and see where the cards fall". However, a smart handler will NEVER let their dog decide to quit, but instead if they see their dog is on the edge of quitting they will give the dog an "out" and recall it. Who cares about the points, get your dog out of there before they decide to quit, and you might have something you can fix. Let the dog quit, and you may have a lifelong issue that you can never really fix.

Something else to keep in mind is accumulated stress. What we saw in the video was one attack. We have no idea how many were before that, what issue the decoys may have discovered in the first exercise and been exploiting ever since, etc. I've seen dogs trial that made it through the trial, but boy if there had been just one or two more exercises, or one or two more stick hits, or just a few more seconds on that attack that dog would have been out of there. And that's the beauty of Ring, if the decoys realize in the first attack your dog has a problem with the hands, you can bet they will be using their hands in EVERY exercise after that. Sure they will hit the dog with the stick a few times, but they'll do more with the hands. If they realize the next dog has an issue with the stick, then it will be all about the stick. And if the next dog has a problem with big threat gestures (decoy gets really tall/big then comes down over the dog fast) guess what he'll be seeing for the rest of the trial. Dogs are not supposed to be worked in a cookie cutter manner, if the decoy can find a hole in your dog or your training he's supposed to exploit it as much as he can.


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## Michelle Reusser

Kadi Thingvall said:


> However, a smart handler will NEVER let their dog decide to quit, but instead if they see their dog is on the edge of quitting they will give the dog an "out" and recall it. Who cares about the points, get your dog out of there before they decide to quit, and you might have something you can fix. Let the dog quit, and you may have a lifelong issue that you can never really fix.
> 
> Something else to keep in mind is accumulated stress. What we saw in the video was one attack. We have no idea how many were before that, what issue the decoys may have discovered in the first exercise and been exploiting ever since, etc. I've seen dogs trial that made it through the trial, but boy if there had been just one or two more exercises, or one or two more stick hits, or just a few more seconds on that attack that dog would have been out of there. And that's the beauty of Ring, if the decoys realize in the first attack your dog has a problem with the hands, you can bet they will be using their hands in EVERY exercise after that. Sure they will hit the dog with the stick a few times, but they'll do more with the hands. If they realize the next dog has an issue with the stick, then it will be all about the stick. And if the next dog has a problem with big threat gestures (decoy gets really tall/big then comes down over the dog fast) guess what he'll be seeing for the rest of the trial. Dogs are not supposed to be worked in a cookie cutter manner, if the decoy can find a hole in your dog or your training he's supposed to exploit it as much as he can.


The part about pulling the dog is what was going through my mind when I watched it. Same thing goes in PSA, I'm sure you've seen that and in OB too. If the dog is just flat out not working that day, pull his ass and back to training ya go, before you just prove to him he can give you the finger the WHOLE time and get away with it. How many dogs bounce back to what they were or better after something like this happens?

The fact that the decoys have that free rein to screw with the dogs head is what makes the sport. The cookie cutter stuff gets on my nerves alot and why I have issues with some other sports. The fact that your not able to cover up much of the dogs shortcomings, is what I wish everyone was going for.


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## Kadi Thingvall

Michelle Kehoe said:


> The part about pulling the dog is what was going through my mind when I watched it. Same thing goes in PSA, I'm sure you've seen that and in OB too. If the dog is just flat out not working that day, pull his ass and back to training ya go, before you just prove to him he can give you the finger the WHOLE time and get away with it. How many dogs bounce back to what they were or better after something like this happens?


In Ring most, but not all, judges will let you pull if the dog is in over it's head in the bitework. I've met very few who will allow you to pull if the dog is just blowing you off in the obedience. Unless it's so out of control you can't even get it to heel from one exercise to another, then they may. But if it's just not focusing in the heeling, or refusing to jump, or doesn't feel like retrieving (or wants to run around the field like an idiot playing with the retrieve object), etc to bad, so sad. Have fun fixing that AFTER the trial, you generally aren't going to get to pull just because of that.


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## Geoff Empey

jay lyda said:


> The only question that I have is at what point or not at any point is the decoy allowed to go into a training mode to get the dog back on the bite so the dog does not leave the field a loser. It was obvious to see when the dog had decided that he was not going to engage, maybe the vid was cut short and did not show this part but the way that the decoy threw the stick as if to say "yeah run, Im done with you", it lead me to believe that the dog was not brought back. What is FRs rule on this? Does it depend on the level, or is this something that does not happen in FR during a trial?


Jay exactly what Kadi and Kyle said. Basically in a trial scenario it is just that. It is the decoys responsibility to follow the rules and the instructions laid out by the judge. It is not his job to make the dog feel good. Once the judge's horn sounds and the dog is recalled it's done, fini. It is the handler and whoever was helping them train the dog responsibility to make sure the dog was ready for this particular level, for sure not the trial decoy. 

You know It's easy to point our fingers at the dog in the video and say how much of a shitter he is. Me I wouldn't be pointing fingers at the dog, I'd be pointing them at the teams training level and the handler's logic of putting a dog on a trial field that obviously is not ready to be there. 

I've seen scores in the mid 30s for a Brevet,  that is out of 100 and a passing score is 80. Really what are these people putting their dogs on the trial field for? People don't realize how much work it is to train for even a Brevet let alone a FRIII.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: The only question that I have is at what point or not at any point is the decoy allowed to go into a training mode to get the dog back on the bite so the dog does not leave the field a loser.

Brutal, I cannot believe you asked that. LOL 

I just want to point out that I did not put that up there to make fun of that dog. I put it up there for all those that think that pushing a dog to the brink of avoidance is gonna make the dog "stronger" or "build his character".

I get so sick of "tapping" and "defense is the root of prey" crap I just wanted to show what happens when a dog is pushed too hard in training, or in a trial. It can happen in the blink of an eye, and you might never see it.

Watch how ****ing fast Fernando is. I know the dogs do. Watch how he is fast and brutal with that stick. They are not using the sticks you think they are, those sticks are hard. Even in slow motion it looks fast and painful. 

I don't care why the dog ran, and I feel bad for the guy trialing.

Take the image with you, the next time you read some PPD trainer talking about defense and "tapping" and know that this will be the outcome if they did anything besides their goofy training.

Threads definately have a life of their own. : )


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## jay lyda

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> Quote: The only question that I have is at what point or not at any point is the decoy allowed to go into a training mode to get the dog back on the bite so the dog does not leave the field a loser.
> 
> Brutal, I cannot believe you asked that. LOL
> 
> 
> Why not?
> 
> I know that it is not the trial decoys job to train the dog but I can not let my ego get in the way and feel good about myself by running a dog. Personally I have no problem giving a dog a prey bite, if the dog team failed and after the exercise is over. The handler obviously knows what the dog needs to work on, or should, and I have no problem kicking into training mode to give the dog a bite real quick before they leave the trial field. In any upper level venue I do not really see this being a problem though, the dog should already be past a lot of this, Im mainly thinking of a younger and lower level dog.


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## Jim Nash

I know very little about rings sports . 

With the stick work in FR what's the typical reaction you get from most dogs (if there is one) when they are coming in on the attack ? 

Is there a trick to not getting bit in the hand doing it ? 

I've tried this with some of our dogs and I don't know where any of them are going to go . They all seem to be a bit different . 

Some go straight for my stick hand . I pull it back and they go inside and get the bite . Now I'm afraid to hurt them so I'm more prone to pulling it back . I don't want to hurt the dog and be the reason a dog was taken off the streets .

I don't do this much but I feel it's a good thing for the dogs to experiance at times . 

Any help would be great . If the answers skill I'm sh&* out of luck .


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## brad robert

I always wondered why jeff disliked schutzhund and some of the dogs werent all they were cracked upto be and now i see why ! Ring sport takes it to a new level i didnt know was there and really tests a dogs metal


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## Erik Berg

I think it´s not so uncommon to have dogs that are not that courageous but do very well in whatever sport you participate in, the drive to bite and the amount of training and building up the dogs from early on will probably make up for those shortcomings so you will not see it many times on the sportfield. On the other hand, if you fail an exercise you lose some points, if it is a PSD that hesitates it can in a worst case scenario cost a life.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Jim, I train the dogs to target specific areas, as this was how I was taught. So when the dog is coming in, the dog has a behavior to deal with the barrage (hopefully)

So if the barrage is low, to block the legs, the dog is taught to go over it, and bite the upper arm, or high, to under and bite the leg.

If you are making a barrage, your hand is not in the center, it is off to one side, and the other end of the stick is at the outer edge of your body. This should keep your hand from getting bit.

I know a few years ago, the decoys were keeping their hands closer to center so that they could push the dog off as they esquived. Some FR trainers I was told (more than once) taught the dog to bite the hand. It does have a way of keeping the decoy honest. : )


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## Jim Nash

I'll try that . I don't do it all that much and don't plan on doing it all that much , but it is a good thing for them to experiance from time to time .

The foundation on all these dogs is the arm but they are then taught to bite other places if its not alvailable . All have numerous real bites and through all these experiances they all have their own preferances for a target . So it's hard to figure out where they are going to go . But that advice should help some . Thanks.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Jeff,

I gotta go back and look at it but I could have sworn the dog on the object guard went for the hand holding the basket. I was wondering if there had been a thought of the dog merely disarming the guy.

Terrasita


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## Connie Sutherland

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> .... So if the barrage is low, to block the legs, the dog is taught to go over it, and bite the upper arm, or high, to under and bite the leg.



Barrage means like where the hockey goalie is waving his stick? The area the decoy is working to keep the dog off of?

Or what?


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## Jackie Mulligan

What exactly is the reason for having the dog guard the decoy from in between their legs, as opposed to front, back or either side? Is this a recent trendy thing or was the guard always trained this way? Thanks.


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## Kyle Sprag

Jackie Mulligan said:


> What exactly is the reason for having the dog guard the decoy from in between their legs, as opposed to front, back or either side? Is this a recent trendy thing or was the guard always trained this way? Thanks.


The decoy is going to try 3 escapes out of a transport, it is harder for the decoy to create spacce and steal meters (point deduction) if the dog is stuck between the decoys legs in the transport.


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## Jackie Mulligan

Oh, ok. I didn't realize points were deducted for the distance the decoy made it before a bite. I just thought how many times the dog actually missed an opportunity to bite. Makes sense now, before it seemed kind of cumbersome for the dog.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: I gotta go back and look at it but I could have sworn the dog on the object guard went for the hand holding the basket. I was wondering if there had been a thought of the dog merely disarming the guy.

Dogs don't disarm people : ) 

Looked to me like he was just trying to grab the guy. On the OG the dogs get faked out going for arms waving out to the side a lot, so they tend to try and grab something in the middle.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Bad day, part two.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JbtcwX-z_9I&feature=rec-HM-fresh+div

Bad music, part one.


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## ann schnerre

jeff, i know pretty much nothing esp re: ring sports, and i only watched that video once, but it looked like a # of dogs weren't "committed" to the bite. either that or the decoys were REALLY good. but it looked like after being esquived once/twice most dogs just kinda quit. would you clarify that a little for me?

also, the dog at about 5:30 or so, and the last dog: the decoy never let up on them even when they were fighting/had good bites, etc. who gives the recall signal? (judge?) seems like it went on for too long, but i'm way to used to Sch vids.

bottom line: would you give a critique of at least some of the work on this? or anyone else who knows about it for that matter...


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## Jim Nash

I watch "Ring Frances Mexicano" episode 1 of that last video you posted Jeff and the dog taking the decoy out at about 5:40 was awesome . Thanks for directing me to all those videos .


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## Kyle Sprag

"also, the dog at about 5:30 or so, and the last dog: the decoy never let up on them even when they were fighting/had good bites, etc. who gives the recall signal? (judge?) seems like it went on for too long, but i'm way to used to Sch vids."


The end of the exercise or recall signal is from a Horn by the Judge, the bites in FR are 15 sec, quite a long time.


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## ann schnerre

seemed like FOREVER watching it! i'll watch it again (and again)...


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## Chip Blasiole

Jeff, Kadi, and others with experience in FR and other ring sports:
I would be interested in hearing more about why you think FR is so challenging for dogs and what aspects of the dogs' temperament are being tested. I have very little knowledge of the sport or the thinking behind what is being tested in the dogs. From Kadi's comments, it sounds like the dogs' persistence or intensity of prey drive and active aggression are being tested. I could see where a dog that superficially looks to have high prey/active aggression, might not be so intense after repeatedly missing a bite. It also sounds like there is a high degree of control required in the protection obedience, such as with the call offs, so that there is a very high level of stress in the protection phase, in addition to the active, confrontational nature of the decoys with the stick hits and squared up body posture. So I assume that the best FR dogs have very solid nerves. The decoy work doesn't appear to challenge dogs in classic sense of defense such as you might see in sports where the decoy is coming head on into the dog, such as a KNPV stick attack or even a courage test in schutzhund. But I can see where the other elements of the FR protection work could be more challenging than classic defense behaviors of decoys in other sports. I am also wondering about the grips of dogs competing in FR and other ring sports. I am assuming that the grips look shallow at times due to the quickness of the decoy esquiving the dog and the dog biting whatever he can grip. Or is there an element of the bitework being so stressful that the dogs are on the edge of avoidance at times. Some of the grips on the back of the legs when the decoy was going away from the dog looked very nice. 
Another potential problem I see is that to compete at a high level, you would need decoys that are not just smart, but superior atheletes in terms of quikness and agility. It is hard enough to find decoys who can read a dog and get into his head, much less being so atheletic. I'd appreciate hearing a little more about the challenges of FR.


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## Kyle Sprag

One thing is the Control, you leave the equipment at the gate entering the field and don't get it back until you leave the field. A FR III program consisting of jumps, OB and bites can take around 45 minutes. The dog must be able to focus on the tasks and the handler.


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## Geoff Empey

Chip Blasiole said:


> Jeff, Kadi, and others with experience in FR and other ring sports:
> I would be interested in hearing more about why you think FR is so challenging for dogs and what aspects of the dogs' temperament are being tested.


It tests the dogs ability to work .. basically if you train your dog properly with the right people you are preparing your dog for war. The top 10% FRIII dogs in the world want it so bad, Compare it to a train going down a mountain out of control and there is a cliff on each side .. there is only one telephone pole that you can jump for if you miss it it is into the abyss .. That how these dogs go for the bite, they are reaching for that pole. 



Chip Blasiole said:


> I have very little knowledge of the sport or the thinking behind what is being tested in the dogs. From Kadi's comments, it sounds like the dogs' persistence or intensity of prey drive and active aggression are being tested. I could see where a dog that superficially looks to have high prey/active aggression, might not be so intense after repeatedly missing a bite. It also sounds like there is a high degree of control required in the protection obedience, such as with the call offs, so that there is a very high level of stress in the protection phase, in addition to the active, confrontational nature of the decoys with the stick hits and squared up body posture. So I assume that the best FR dogs have very solid nerves. The decoy work doesn't appear to challenge dogs in classic sense of defense such as you might see in sports where the decoy is coming head on into the dog, such as a KNPV stick attack or even a courage test in schutzhund. But I can see where the other elements of the FR protection work could be more challenging than classic defense behaviors of decoys in other sports. I am also wondering about the grips of dogs competing in FR and other ring sports. I am assuming that the grips look shallow at times due to the quickness of the decoy esquiving the dog and the dog biting whatever he can grip. Or is there an element of the bitework being so stressful that the dogs are on the edge of avoidance at times. Some of the grips on the back of the legs when the decoy was going away from the dog looked very nice.


Don't kid yourself about decoys challenging dogs in FR the opposition at all the levels with levels is very intense. Even doing a Brevet is quite an accomplishment .. going down the field 30m through a baton barrage 15 seconds of combat with an out with return to heel .. Just because in KNPV or SchH the decoy is yelling doesn't increase the opposition .. A decoy can challenge a dog in so many ways everything is not as it seems. 

We work for full grips but a dog is not penalized in a trial for having a shallow grip due to the nature of the work. As well once the dog is on can push into the grip without being penalized. A dog only gets penalized if it changes grips. 

I don't see and have not seen dogs that can do the work be on the "edge of avoidance" They are in prey and reaching for the pole jumping off that runaway train. 




Chip Blasiole said:


> Another potential problem I see is that to compete at a high level, you would need decoys that are not just smart, but superior atheletes in terms of quikness and agility. It is hard enough to find decoys who can read a dog and get into his head, much less being so atheletic. I'd appreciate hearing a little more about the challenges of FR.


To be a training decoy you don't need super quickness or agility. A lot of those things can be replicated with equipment like working pivots with pylons and barrels, back tying the dogs using harnesses, bungees and inner tubes to build entries while working both the decoys and dogs techniques. Training FR is not as much about the physical game as it is more a mind game.


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## Erik Berg

One thing is for sure, FR at the top level is extremly entertaining, I mean look at this, wow!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z1wOm-Zwdnc&feature=related

On the other hand, the decoywork in BR seems pretty lame compared to FR, also KNPV except for the stickattack is not so much action, but some say the BR and KNPV-dogs are in general stronger dogs than the FR-dogs. If that is true I guess it´s not only the decoywork that makes a sport hard. It seems the FR dogs due to the agile decoywork are a bit smaller, high in prey and tractable dogs compared to the bigger more "stable" KNPV and BR-dogs, kinda like what the border collies are in agility but in protection sports.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: I would be interested in hearing more about why you think FR is so challenging for dogs and what aspects of the dogs' temperament are being tested.

I posted the video of FR for an entirely different reason, but MR, just doing it is a challenge for me. It takes more money than I have to do the sport.

I know what a dog is and is not, so I guess my answer would be to go out and do ring, and then you will see all of the challenges there are.

Quote: The decoy work doesn't appear to challenge dogs in classic sense of defense such as you might see in sports where the decoy is coming head on into the dog, such as a KNPV stick attack or even a courage test in schutzhund.

This is always something that I hear from people from a Sch, or PP background. They are more concerned with what THEY think is a challenge. I think that what you start off with as far as dog sports is where some people's thinking stops.  

Quote: I am assuming that the grips look shallow at times due to the quickness of the decoy esquiving the dog and the dog biting whatever he can grip.

I don't think that anyone makes a suit that fits in a dogs mouth as perfectly as a sleeve. :grin: 

Quote: Another potential problem I see is that to compete at a high level, you would need decoys that are not just smart, but superior atheletes in terms of quikness and agility. It is hard enough to find decoys who can read a dog and get into his head, much less being so atheletic. I'd appreciate hearing a little more about the challenges of FR.

I think that you outlined very nicely yourself the logistical challenges that MR and FR people face everyday.


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