# First day with K9 Nose Work



## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I need to get back in the swing doing something/anything with my dogs so I signed up for K9 Nose Work with Trooper. I don't see him developing any sort of fantastic hunt drive. He's never had it to a level of being a serious detection dog like Thunder but he seemed to pick up the game pretty quick. Holding focus on anything has always been a short coming of his but I suspect he'll do well in a short term game. 
I've said it in the past but my wife tells me that watching an ADHD trainer work with a ADHD dog is worth getting out a lawn chair, a pepsi and a bag of popcorn. 
I have no idea what she means by that. 8-[  :-$ :lol: 
I may even get the old man out and put another title on him. All I need for him is to read the instructions. :lol:


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> I need to get back in the swing doing something/anything with my dogs so I signed up for K9 Nose Work with Trooper. I don't see him developing any sort of fantastic hunt drive. He's never had it to a level of being a serious detection dog like Thunder but he seemed to pick up the game pretty quick. Holding focus on anything has always been a short coming of his but I suspect he'll do well in a short term game.
> I've said it in the past but my wife tells me that watching an ADHD trainer work with a ADHD dog is worth getting out a lawn chair, a pepsi and a bag of popcorn.
> I have no idea what she means by that. 8-[  :-$ :lol:
> I may even get the old man out and put another title on him. All I need for him is to read the instructions. :lol:


Not that I don't adore MR. PERFECT, but let Trooper have his sport. I actually suggest Nosework for cross training for some of the herding dogs to help build focus and for the more dependent types--learning to work independent. Great to hear you're back out and and about training. 

T


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Not that I don't adore MR. PERFECT, but let Trooper have his sport. I actually suggest Nosework for cross training for some of the herding dogs to help build focus and for the more dependent types--learning to work independent. Great to hear you're back out and and about training.
> 
> T



Thunder will stay home. For one thing this is all about food training. With his EPI issue treats are out.


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## David Winners (Apr 4, 2012)

Bob Scott said:


> Thunder will stay home. For one thing this is all about food training. With his EPI issue treats are out.


Great to see you getting out there and having fun with your boy!

It's pretty easy to use tug or a ball. Are you marking the find and then rewarding or letting the dog self reward by hiding food with the odor?

David Winners


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

David Winners said:


> Great to see you getting out there and having fun with your boy!
> 
> It's pretty easy to use tug or a ball. Are you marking the find and then rewarding or letting the dog self reward by hiding food with the odor?
> 
> David Winners



First time back at any dog activity in a couple of yrs. Taking care of my FIL till he passed took a bit of time his last yr or so. He lived with us his last 7-8 yrs and passed at 98 two yrs+ ago now.
The training is through NACSW. I'm going to follow their rules for training as long is it works for us. No reason it wont. Right now that's food in a box and the dog looks for it among other boxes. I'm assuming the target odor will eventually be placed in the box with the food and weaned off the food. No markers either.
Both my dogs fully understand markers but they aren't used in this particular method. I'm guessing also that in the end I will be able to use a kong for reward. 
Food training for detection work, even as a game, isn't my first choice but since I'm in a class situation I'll work it. 
Markers and a kong on a rope or a tug got my older GSD his SAR training, CDX, SCHIII, HT, TT, CGC. 
This dog, 6+, has been doing nothing because of my not doing anything with him other then basic ob with markers, TT and CGC. Those, to me are no brainers and just a fun thing to do to CYA if you have a bite trained dog. :lol:


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## Peta Het (Feb 13, 2011)

Good luck with it. I've been doing the NACSW method for a bit now also, just as something fun to do with my GSD. The only negative about the method is that it takes a long time to get through all of their levels but I suppose its worth putting a good foundation on the dog. 

We finally entered an ORT yesterday and passed very quickly. I am going to continue with it to see where it goes. The early stages are hard to get through but it gets much better down the road. Enjoy!


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## Melissa Blazak (Apr 14, 2008)

I like the Ramsay DVDs. The first 2 he did are for toy oriented dogs and he just released one using the clicker/marker to teach. I am using a variety of things to teach it to my dog.

The seminars I originally went to used the food in the box method, which is what some of the trainers for the SDDA (Canada's version of NACSW) use. When I went back to imprinting the scent a couple of months ago I decided to place the scent in a spice jar with holes and have my dog target the scent and then get rewarded with food by feeding him over the scent holes where the scent is coming out. After about 10 repetitions of that I release him to his toy. 

My next step has been moving the jar around the room and directing him to "find it". He must still put his muzzle close to the scent opening. Then I will progress to teaching a down or sit in the presence of the scent. Finally I will start to put the spice jar in the containers that will be used for a container search.

We just had an SDDA (Sporting Detection Dog Association) trial on Saturday and I helped place the hides. We had an advanced container search and 2 of the four dogs hit on the distractor container with cookies in it. The owner of one of the dogs says she wishes she hadn't started with the food in the box method.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Peta, congrats on your ORT!

Melissa, I've started dogs with the "scent" in salt shakers and markers. I'd just sit in a chair with the shaker in one hand and a clicker in the other. When the dog made nose contact I'd click and reward.
With imprinting a new scent with a trained dog it's just a matter of 4-5 times and the dog understands the new scent. then the hiding starts. 
I gave a demo at one of my grandkid's school and I imprinted on a pack of ciggaretts a couple of days before and he was solid as a rock. After the demo you should have seen the kids shaking when I said I was going to do a locker search for contriband. Not a cop so I was Jkn of course but it sure rattled a few of them. 
Of course in the real world there would be a lot more proofing, etc with a new scent.


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## David Winners (Apr 4, 2012)

Bob Scott said:


> Peta, congrats on your ORT!
> 
> Melissa, I've started dogs with the "scent" in salt shakers and markers. I'd just sit in a chair with the shaker in one hand and a clicker in the other. When the dog made nose contact I'd click and reward.
> With imprinting a new scent with a trained dog it's just a matter of 4-5 times and the dog understands the new scent. then the hiding starts.
> ...


It sure doesn't take long to imprint a trained dog. This is how I learned to check my boxes before every time I use them.

In Afghanistan, we ran across some unfamiliar (to me) det cord, and I got a sample from EOD to train with. Fama was slow to final on it, so I wanted to do some box drills to enforce her on that odor. I placed a chunk in the hot box and ran her through 5 reps on the boxes to sharpen her response. 

The very next day, we were working a point of entry, where we were tasked with searching hundreds of semi trucks. A big jingle truck full of oranges rolled into the search area and Fama planted her ass on it like it was full of dynamite. Scared the shit out of me!

We did all the steps up to and including downloading the whole truck. 3 hours later...No find... I put her on the cargo, which was stacked up in lines behind the truck. She sat on the first box. Hmmmm... I opened it up and found nothing but oranges.

I was flabbergasted. Fama did not false, ever, and here she was, making me look like an idiot lol. I put her in a down off to the side while the oranges were tested, to no avail. Just oranges. 

My mind was going a million miles an hour. I decided to test her, and rolled a solitary orange into an empty space in the lot. I had her search downwind, and sure enough, she threw a beautiful change of behavior and bracketed right to the orange, planting her ass. I was pissed, to say the least. Our day was over.

I was pouring over what could have caused this the rest of the day, and when we finally got back to the FOB, I went looking for answers. Half an hour into looking through all our training equipment, I walked past my boxes, which sat outside my hooch. I checked them out and found half an orange peel in the hot box.

Damn

David Winners


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## Peta Het (Feb 13, 2011)

Amazing story David. Hope people were not too pissed at you!

I introduced the Anise scent to him yesterday and will continue with that this week then start clove next week. Then I will continue to reinforce all 3 scents. There is a mock trial here in October I believe that I will probably give a try. If we do alright then I will look for the next trial to enter. 
My biggest challenge with him seems to be keeping him at a good working level, he tends to get amped up. That is great when doing harder searches that take longer but for the boxes it is a little too much so I need to manage that. At the ORT he was just right, went methodically from box to box and immediately recognized the hot box without crushing it! If I can keep him working like that we will be good to go.


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## Melissa Blazak (Apr 14, 2008)

Yes we had a couple of pretty "intense" dogs searching the containers. LOL

1 lab and 1 mal took out half the containers. The mali walked out with one of her paws stuck through the hole in the container. On the other hand, a couple of really nice high drive rescue mals with beautiful passive alerts.

My Rudy picked up our first odour (wintergreen) very quickly. I am just going through many little steps because I find it interesting to train. Our 2nd level of scent is Pine, but both NACSW and the new Ramsay Nosework/UKC Nosework uses birch which I will also imprint in hopes that their will be a trial within a 3 hour drive of me next year. Or, that Andrew will come to UKC Premier again next year.

That is a fascinating story about the orange. And Bob that was real funny about the cigs. LOL


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## Vinnie Norberg (Jun 5, 2010)

We’ve been training nosework for a little bit now with Stefan Schaub from Staatsmacht. I want to say we started back in the spring – maybe April/May of this year? We just passed the Birch & Clove ORTs this past weekend at Iowa’s very first ORT. Finding the tests and trials within reasonable driving distance is somewhat difficult up here. When they do offer them they fill up super fast. We’re hoping to get into an ORT in MN in October for his Anise and being ready for a NW1 when Minnesota has their first trial, whenever that will be??? 

I’ve kind of felt that the NACSW training was a bit boring, time consuming and needless to first train on food and then switch over to the actual target scent. Of course, that’s just my opinion. We’ve trained this beginning with a scent tube very much the same way you’d train a SAR or Bomb dog and are now working on a nice passive alert. 

I was actually a little surprised at my dog for his nice down with one paw on the hot box this past weekend.


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## Peta Het (Feb 13, 2011)

Their method is very time consuming and drawn out. Initially I quit after the first set of classes because it was kind of dull and very basic. Thats mostly because they are trying to cater to all kinds of pet dogs. A working dog with any kind of drive can dramatically accelerate through their process. IMO however, it does put a good foundation on the dog to hunt so that when the hides become more difficult the dog does not give up or false alert out of frustration. 
I decided that doing it all on my own I probably would not put as solid a foundation on the dog so I went back to give their method a fair try and it did get more interesting. Luckily we have a very good instructor here to keep it a little more interesting and most of the little fifi pet dogs have dropped out so the class is advancing faster.


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## Vinnie Norberg (Jun 5, 2010)

Peta Het said:


> Their method is very time consuming and drawn out. Initially I quit after the first set of classes because it was kind of dull and very basic. Thats mostly because they are trying to cater to all kinds of pet dogs. A working dog with any kind of drive can dramatically accelerate through their process. I*MO however, it does put a good foundation on the dog to hunt so that when the hides become more difficult the dog does not give up or false alert out of frustration.
> I decided that doing it all on my own I probably would not put as solid a foundation on the dog so I went back to give their method a fair try and it did get more interesting. Luckily we have a very good instructor here to keep it a little more interesting and most of the little fifi pet dogs have dropped out so the class is advancing faster.*


I think my opinion might differ from yours a bit.

Do you think that in real scent detection training the foundation is weak? The foundation is set with the target odor instead of food and switching later to the target odor. I think this has proven to be a successful foundation for many of the working detection dogs out there.

I've heard that ALL dogs will give a false alert at some point no matter the training. 

IMO to hunt or not isn't something that is really taught to a dog. How he/she hunts can be refined through training but IMO this is more a matter of genetics. Either the dog will or he won’t. Some will but not as intently as others. I wish I had video of the day Stefan took my dog’s ball and tossed it in the woods to demonstrate to someone the dog’s hunt drive. Prior to that, no training was involved to “increase” or "refine" his desire to hunt and he kept searching until he found that ball!

I personally don't train this by myself and wouldn't even attempt too. I wouldn't have a clue where to begin to be honest. But I also don't think it's necessary to train the long drawn out way with a NACSW certified trainer.

While I do agree NACSW training is geared more towards the pet dog population/trainers. More for the reactive and adopted dogs with unknown backgrounds, I still believe there are unnecessary steps in the NACSW formal training. But that’s capitalism right? I think it’s the boredom and high cost of classes that is causing a lot of people to drop out - not the lack of desire/ability on the dog’s part. I’ve been told however that the NACSW training has changed a little from when I first looked into the formal classes to slow or accommodate the drop out rate. I have to remember that this is a relatively new sport and there will be adjustments.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Since this is as much about getting my butt back into some sort of training I don't have a big issue wwith it taking time. 
I can and have trained scent work on my own so this is as much about getting into a pattern with this dog since it's been a while since I've done much of anything with him. He's ready for his CD but It's been a few yrs since I've been in the AKC ring. It's me that needs the work. :lol:
As to cost, this is through the Community Colleges in the area so it's half off for us old farts. :grin: :wink:


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## Melissa Blazak (Apr 14, 2008)

The SDDA here in Canada was first started about 3 years ago as a way for people with reactive, fearful or aggressive dogs to work with them and give them an outlet. It has only recently become an organization and only held its first trial in June I think. 

It can't keep up with requests for seminars and classes and authorized judges. With every trial (3 so far and I have volunteered at 2) the rules are being tweaked as new things crop up. 

I hope UKC Nosework takes off here in the Northeast US and Canada as well. There certainly seems to be a lot of desire.


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## Vinnie Norberg (Jun 5, 2010)

Bob Scott said:


> It's me that needs the work. :lol:
> As to cost, this is through the Community Colleges in the area so it's half off for us old farts. :grin: :wink:


:lol: I hear that - I need more work than my dog does anyday, trust me.

Nice on the discounted price. Around here the regular price with a NACSW certified trainer is between $180-$150 for 6 sessions and you have to do a few courses before you even get to introduce the scent. 

Good luck! 

@Melissa, I've been watching but haven't seen the UKC Nosework up here in MN/WI yet. They have something coming up in December in Iowa, so getting closer. They do have something coming up in October in MI but that's the farthest north I've seen them so far.


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## Melissa Blazak (Apr 14, 2008)

I am paying $10 a session for drop in nose work classes. 

There is a UKC nose work pre trial about 3 1/2 hours from me in MI in October but I am not ready yet and I've exhausted my dog trip fund for this year.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

For seniors :grin: :razz: :grin: it's $45 for six weeks. That a certified trainer. I "believe" we will be introduced to scent in that time period.
So far it's Trooper, some fat, but drivey, Rott/Beagle looking mix and a tiny litte Poo/Schitz or some such are doing an excellent job. 
There is a Standard Poodle that seem to bored or maybe to dignified to eat out of the same box as the other dogs. Toss it on the floor next to the box and she's fine. 
A very overweight Chow that walks into the middle of the room and lays down for a nap. A golden that I think will eventually do a good job...if they can peel him off the cealing. CRAZY dog. 
Trooper's only problem, if it is a problem, is that he wants to search the whole room and not just the boxes in the middle of the room. As long as he's searching I'll take it. 
We also added a command today. I started that yesterday  8-[. 
This coming week we'll add distractions with the boxes such as shoes, kids toys, etc. I'm training in my basement where the gkids toys are all over the place. Go figure!
I did run into somewhat of a serious problem. I don't believe in shots other then puppy shots and the required by law rabies shots so I have been "requested" to get titers on Trooper. I've heard they aren't very reliable but rules are rules.


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## Vinnie Norberg (Jun 5, 2010)

Woa – nice price Bob!

Oya Poodles.  Gotta love 'em.

Here’s a distraction for ya. The other week while training at home I had my son hide the scent tube and then brought my dog in to find it. I placed him in a down which is how we usually start. I noticed our cat lounging on the coffee table. I didn’t really think it was a big deal so I told my dog to “find” and off he went sniffing away. The dog goes past the table and wham! The cat flies off the table and lands on the dog’s back. My dog shook him off and continued to search. The cat then goes running sideways at my dog. Dog ignores him. Cat starts meowing and swatting towards dog. Dog finds his hidden scent tube and runs back to get the cat. Work first! I like that.  

I don’t know much about titers but there’s plenty of info on the web. My vet had also told me they aren’t reliable but if they will help you avoid unnecessary vaccines – great!

Sounds like you are having some fun with this and finding it mildly amusing so that is good. Look forward to hearing/sharing more.


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## Melissa Blazak (Apr 14, 2008)

Nice price Bob!

Hey I resent that implication about Standard Poodles! [-X You gotta hang around some of the working types that I do field and other stuff with. LOL

My mali friend calls Rudy a Poodle on Crack! But then he is 3/4 German import lines and cross between Standard and Kleinpudel. His father had 2 speeds... fast and faster and his mother was no slouch either.

Good for you for sticking for this rather boring sounding class. We reward with food right on top of the holes in the container and then for those who are toy crazy we bring out the tugs/balls, etc. 

For the toy driven dogs like Rudy they would be happy without the food but it's a nice added reward and you can get it really close to the hide without disturbing it.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I think Standard Poodles can be fantastic dogs but this one acts like the average pet owner would think a Poodle would act. To dignified to let a mutt smell it's......ear. :twisted: 
At one time one of my brothers had one and it was a very serious dog that could lean anything you wanted to teach it.


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## Peta Het (Feb 13, 2011)

Bob, are you still doing nosework training or did you hang it up? Any update?


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I had signed up for the second class that was supposed to start this past march. They called and said the class was cancelled because there were only two signed up. 
This winter was really lousy with the cold and this next session was going to be outside. 
With the weather finally getting me outside I just started again at home with Trooper. Going back to my own methods using markers. 
I imprinted Thunder with the birch scent in about 5 mins and he of course is solid as a rock being a former HRD dog. He takes to a new scent in literally a matter of mins but Trooper is.......how shall we say......less focused. :grin:


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Bob Scott said:


> I had signed up for the second class that was supposed to start this past march. They called and said the class was cancelled because there were only two signed up.
> This winter was really lousy with the cold and this next session was going to be outside.
> With the weather finally getting me outside I just started again at home with Trooper. Going back to my own methods using markers.
> I imprinted Thunder with the birch scent in about 5 mins and he of course is solid as a rock being a former HRD dog. He takes to a new scent in literally a matter of mins but *Trooper is.......how shall we say......less focused*. :grin:


Hey! Trooper has a good time. :grin:


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Its just hard switching from Mr. Perfect. Put that training hat on and get him back to work. Of course there is always herding. He did an excellent job focusing on sheep. 


T


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Its just hard switching from Mr. Perfect. Put that training hat on and get him back to work. Of course there is always herding. He did an excellent job focusing on sheep.
> 
> 
> T




Trooper is so damn lovable but soft dogs are my Achilles heel even though I think he could be a star at most anything if I were a little more patient with him. He tries so hard to please. 
Trooper can't just shrug his shoulders when I make a mistake like Thunder can. .
As I've mentioned before, Marianne says watching an ADHD trainer work with an ADHD dog is worth bringing out the lawn chair, a bag of popcorn and a glass of Coke.


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