# Logan haus Kennels pups starting odor work



## mike suttle

Here are a couple puppies that Ariel and I have started doing detection work with. The Dutchie is 10 weeks old, the mali is 11 weeks. This is their 6th time on odor. The light bulb is coming on for them now.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_G9r...xt=C3ce67e6UDOEgsToPDskL_9Ecx_DZ6-JXqONT_bWt8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KXVL...xt=C382bbfbUDOEgsToPDskJ1UiKE4-DlGtR_2gbaQC2Z

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7YH...xt=C38503d0UDOEgsToPDskKGoXPliIip00YHyX7KDUfO

Thanks to Pat Nolan at Ponderosa Kennels for his help in the design idea of these tubes, Pat is a great man, a great trainer, and a breeder of super quality working field trial Labs.


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## mike suttle

both pups found the target odor when i walked over to turn on the camera, so they went straight to it when i restarted them. I will get some more video over the next few days and start the camera before i bring them in the room.


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## john axe

wow, they are intent


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## Harry Keely

Are those positions on the PVC pipe stationary or mobile on that plank ??? Should be mobile to switch location in the order that they are lined up in, because even pups younger than that will always go to the same location over a very short period of consistency of being able to go to it to search for odor, especially the smart pups. Its a lesson I learned many years ago using that same old school design pretty much. Just thought I throw that out there of one of the down falls of using it in a stationary matter. Other than that pups look OK doing it.


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## mike suttle

Harry Keely said:


> Are those positions on the PVC pipe stationary or mobile on that plank ??? Should be mobile to switch location in the order that they are lined up in, because even pups younger than that will always go to the same location over a very short period of consistency of being able to go to it to search for odor, especially the smart pups. Its a lesson I learned many years ago using that same old school design pretty much. Just thought I throw that out there of one of the down falls of using it in a stationary matter. Other than that pups look OK doing it.


Yes, they are movable on the board, and they get washed and moved to a new location every session.
I also have a bunch of them set up as singles on 12" x 12" boards. This was their 6th time doing it, right now they are still learning to pair target odor with a reward, even though I do move the odor with each session I am mostly just building odor recognition at this point. Just started to wait for a final response two sessions ago. Probably next week I will start them on a wall.


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## Harry Keely

mike suttle said:


> Yes, they are movable on the board, and they get washed and moved to a new location every session.
> I also have a bunch of them set up as singles on 12" x 12" boards. This was their 6th time doing it, right now they are still learning to pair target odor with a reward, even though I do move the odor with each session I am mostly just building odor recognition at this point. Just started to wait for a final response two sessions ago. Probably next week I will start them on a wall.


I would probally place the PVC in boiling water for a short period after washing it, just so to make sure your not going to have to proof them off other sents and your sure there on target. At least thats what we have done. just more food for thought for ya.


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## mike suttle

thanks Harry


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## Ariel Peldunas

We don't ever interchange tubes. The odor tube always has the odor. We move the whole tube, base and odor included from position to position. We wash them at the end of each session to try to minimize food and drool odor, but all tubes have distraction odor so the pups learn the only significant odor is the target.


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## mike suttle

Harry Keely said:


> I would probally place the PVC in boiling water for a short period after washing it, just so to make sure your not going to have to proof them off other sents and your sure there on target. At least thats what we have done. just more food for thought for ya.


we are very anal about avoiding any cross contamination and making sure the dogs are working on pure odor only. We are proofing them off as we go, that's why the distractor tubes have rubber gloves, plastic bags, food, etc. We have a total of 18 tubes, 17 of them are distractor odors. 
Ariel's meticulous attention to detail in scent work is amazing, she is the most thorough trainer I have seen doing it.


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## Christopher Jones

Is this a Turnipseed approved thread?


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## will fernandez

just like the seed more marketing--but now a competitor is trying to butt in and show how much better his way is....


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## Brian Anderson

Mike ..I really like Pat Nolan ...super nice guy and very insightful dog trainer with some really good ideas.


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## mike suttle

will fernandez said:


> just like the seed more marketing--but now a competitor is trying to butt in and show how much better his way is....


Not trying to market anything here Will, neither the puppies nor the training. In fact, I'd like to mention that neither of these two pups are for sale. And we dont have time to take on anymore training at the moment.
I just posted some videos of us doing some basic imprinting work with young puppies because several people have asked me how we do it.


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## mike suttle

Brian Anderson said:


> Mike ..I really like Pat Nolan ...super nice guy and very insightful dog trainer with some really good ideas.


I agree, Pat is one of the nicest guys I know. A great trainer yet so very humble about his abilities. But his skill and hard work shows in his dogs for sure.


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## Brian Anderson

will fernandez said:


> just like the seed more marketing--but now a competitor is trying to butt in and show how much better his way is....


For me personally I like seeing how other people do things. Whether its Suttle or someone else. I'm thinking that's what this whole "forum" concept it supposed to be about. Of course folks and I reckon can grind axes too LOL.


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## Brian Anderson

will fernandez said:


> just like the seed more marketing--but now a competitor is trying to butt in and show how much better his way is....


One more itty bitty point Will ... while Im raggin!! Smart ass remarks and stabs like this is what keeps more people from posting videos and in fact participating in the forum.


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## Edward Egan

will fernandez said:


> just like the seed more marketing--but now a competitor is trying to butt in and show how much better his way is....


So Mike (or any other breeder) shouldn't show us how they train because some perceive it as advertising?


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## will fernandez

Marketing and showing off your training is fine. when the other one pipes in it makes me laugh. 

Sent from my SCH-I510 using Tapatalk


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## Brian Anderson

will fernandez said:


> Marketing and showing off your training is fine. when the other one pipes in it makes me laugh.
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I510 using Tapatalk


Will I apologize dude... I totally missed your point... now Im embarrased .. sorry man..


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## Kelly Godwin

mike suttle said:


> Here are a couple puppies that Ariel and I have started doing detection work with. The Dutchie is 10 weeks old, the mali is 11 weeks. This is their 6th time on odor. The light bulb is coming on for them now.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_G9r...xt=C3ce67e6UDOEgsToPDskL_9Ecx_DZ6-JXqONT_bWt8
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KXVL...xt=C382bbfbUDOEgsToPDskJ1UiKE4-DlGtR_2gbaQC2Z
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7YH...xt=C38503d0UDOEgsToPDskKGoXPliIip00YHyX7KDUfO
> 
> Thanks to Pat Nolan at Ponderosa Kennels for his help in the design idea of these tubes, Pat is a great man, a great trainer, and a breeder of super quality working field trial Labs.


They look really good man! This is the dutchie and mal pups that you had when we were out there a few weeks back? If so, they are going to be strong in all phases from what I have seen. Stable, lots of drive, obviously good noses, and love for the work.

I thought for sure when we first got there and walked around the corner of your house and the dutchie puppy had gotten loose from her stake out and ran to Amanda that she was going to make me see if you would sell her LOL 

Very nice pups man, can't wait to see how they progress!


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## Stephanie Johnson

Brian Anderson said:


> Smart ass remarks and stabs like this is what keeps more people from posting videos and in fact participating in the forum.


Disagree. 
A person's insecurities are what keep them from posting videos and in fact participating in a forum. 
Insecurities which are indicative of a weak temperament not suited to owning a "working dog".


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## Stephanie Johnson

mike suttle said:


> Not trying to market anything here Will, neither the puppies nor the training. In fact, I'd like to mention that neither of these two pups are for sale. And we dont have time to take on anymore training at the moment.
> I just posted some videos of us doing some basic imprinting work with young puppies because several people have asked me how we do it.


Of course you are trying to market here. Does the fact that these two puppies are not for sale and the mention that you don't have time to do more training mean that you will not have puppies for sale in the future or will not offer your training services at a later date?

And if you really wanted to show how you do it, you would have posted days 1,2,3,4, and 5 as well.

Here's to keeping it real Mr. Suttle.


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## will fernandez

In fact if you want to pick about someone's training you should make yours available for viewing. it is bullshit not to show your own training ......

Sent from my SCH-I510 using Tapatalk


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## Brian Anderson

Stephanie Johnson said:


> Disagree.
> A person's insecurities are what keep them from posting videos and in fact participating in a forum.
> Insecurities which are indicative of a weak temperament not suited to owning a "working dog".


that is not what I have read in the past (which is how I formed that conclusion based on what people actually gave as reasons for not posting) but its your right to disagree.... :wink:


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## Chris McDonald

Brian Anderson said:


> One more itty bitty point Will ... while Im raggin!! Smart ass remarks and stabs like this is what keeps more people from posting videos and in fact participating in the forum.


You got a man’s name? But you consider yourself to be “ragging”? And” Smart ass remarks and stabs like this is what keeps more people from posting videos and in fact participating in the forum.” Comon was what will said really that bad?


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## Brian Anderson

Chris McDonald said:


> You got a man’s name? But you consider yourself to be “ragging”? And” Smart ass remarks and stabs like this is what keeps more people from posting videos and in fact participating in the forum.” Comon was what will said really that bad?


no it wasn't Chris ... I missed what his point was and I apologized .. I didnt read closely enough and stuck my foot in my mouth. It's not the first time and probably won't be the last time. I am man enough to admit when I am wrong.


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## mike suttle

Stephanie Johnson said:


> Of course you are trying to market here. Does the fact that these two puppies are not for sale and the mention that you don't have time to do more training mean that you will not have puppies for sale in the future or will not offer your training services at a later date?
> 
> And if you really wanted to show how you do it, you would have posted days 1,2,3,4, and 5 as well.
> 
> Here's to keeping it real Mr. Suttle.


Believe me, I have enough people on a waiting list for puppies that I dont have to market them here. The first few days are pretty boring really, but I have a litter here now that is about 3 weeks old, they will begin imprinting work in a few days, I can film that for you if you want to watch puppies eating from a food bowl.
I was asked two days ago to video how i do it, so yesterday i got out the camera and videod it for someone, i just posted it on here in case anyone else wanted to see it.
I dont recall seeing any videos from you on here Stephanie, but if you posted any, were you trying to market anything by doing so?


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## Ariel Peldunas

Stephanie Johnson said:


> Of course you are trying to market here. Does the fact that these two puppies are not for sale and the mention that you don't have time to do more training mean that you will not have puppies for sale in the future or will not offer your training services at a later date?
> 
> And if you really wanted to show how you do it, you would have posted days 1,2,3,4, and 5 as well.
> 
> Here's to keeping it real Mr. Suttle.


Honestly, Stephanie, I really just love experimenting and figuring out different ways to do things. I also think it's pretty awesome to watch puppies learn because you can really see the wheels turning. I wanted to start doing some odor work with the puppies because training, watching and learning is what I really enjoy. Mike supported that and now I believe he's really enjoying it (evident by the fact that even while I've been away this week, he's been working the puppies every day). Honestly, I wouldn't mind training some dogs in the future or helping other people to learn the techniques we have success with, but my goal is not to get rich doing so. If it was, why would we be posting video showing people how we are training the pups? We'd just show the finished product and slap a price tag on it. 

Would you be so quick to think it was marketing if I had posted the videos? Do you really think the WDF is a good place to source clients? It seems like this is the place you come if you want people to criticize the way you do things. But, I believe there are still some members out there who are actually interested in how other people do things and might like to see what we're playing around with, so why not share some video? I'd watch it if I wasn't me ...and would appreciate the learning that was taking place. 

It's not hard to figure out how we started the pups, if you use some common sense. We do have some video from Day 1 or 2, I think, but you'd really only see some shots of my butt engulfing the screen as I hadn't figured out that I needed to stay out of the way. If you're really interested, let me know and I can break down the method we're using. I have a feeling that's not the case and you're just trying to be disagreeable, so I'm not going to waste my time.


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## Brian Anderson

Ariel Peldunas said:


> Honestly, Stephanie, I really just love experimenting and figuring out different ways to do things. I also think it's pretty awesome to watch puppies learn because you can really see the wheels turning. I wanted to start doing some odor work with the puppies because training, watching and learning is what I really enjoy. Mike supported that and now I believe he's really enjoying it (evident by the fact that even while I've been away this week, he's been working the puppies every day). Honestly, I wouldn't mind training some dogs in the future or helping other people to learn the techniques we have success with, but my goal is not to get rich doing so. If it was, why would we be posting video showing people how we are training the pups? We'd just show the finished product and slap a price tag on it.
> 
> Would you be so quick to think it was marketing if I had posted the videos? Do you really think the WDF is a good place to source clients? It seems like this is the place you come if you want people to criticize the way you do things. But, I believe there are still some members out there who are actually interested in how other people do things and might like to see what we're playing around with, so why not share some video? I'd watch it if I wasn't me ...and would appreciate the learning that was taking place.
> 
> It's not hard to figure out how we started the pups, if you use some common sense. We do have some video from Day 1 or 2, I think, but you'd really only see some shots of my butt engulfing the screen as I hadn't figured out that I needed to stay out of the way. If you're really interested, let me know and I can break down the method we're using. I have a feeling that's not the case and you're just trying to be disagreeable, so I'm not going to waste my time.


Ariel I was thinking that it was most likely a conspiracy on the part of you and Suttle to show a different way than what you normally would do it to mislead and create confusion and chaos amongst the forum masses ROTFLMAO ](*,)


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## Joby Becker

Ariel Peldunas said:


> We do have some video from Day 1 or 2, I think, but you'd really only see some shots of my butt engulfing the screen as I hadn't figured out that I needed to stay out of the way.


That video might be more entertaining...better than seeing guys naked asses on TV...or pictures of puppies on a pillow...I say go for it...


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## Ariel Peldunas

Brian Anderson said:


> Ariel I was thinking that it was most likely a conspiracy on the part of you and Suttle to show a different way than what you normally would do it to mislead and create confusion and chaos amongst the forum masses ROTFLMAO ](*,)


Damn! You figured us out. Those are really just two wash-out pups that we're trying our hardest to screw up. Then we're going to take identical littermates and sell them when they mature and everyone will think we trained them using the method in the video. :twisted:

Now our secret is out! I guess I should just go back to batting my eyelashes and training sport dogs and Mike can post some more videos of them chewing on copper pipes.


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## Joby Becker

Ariel Peldunas said:


> Damn! You figured us out. Those are really just two wash-out pups that we're trying our hardest to screw up. Then we're going to take identical littermates and sell them when they mature and everyone will think we trained them using the method in the video. :twisted:
> 
> Now our secret is out! I guess I should just go back to batting my eyelashes and training sport dogs and Mike can post some more videos of them chewing on copper pipes.


I was disappointed that Mike stopped filming and posting that testing series, due to a bunch of crap people said, it was interesting and informative for a bunch of people...


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## Ariel Peldunas

Joby Becker said:


> I was disappointed that Mike stopped filming and posting that testing series, due to a bunch of crap people said, it was interesting and informative for a bunch of people...


He probably got distracted and started focusing on something else ...shiny objects. :lol:

I always intend to video my training sessions in hopes of being able to critique myself when I go back and watch it or being able to share it with others. Hopefully, with two of us motivated to break out the camera, we can start capturing more of what we do with the dogs and pups ...for those who care to see it.


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## Jennifer Coulter

I am interested..not in a pup, but the training. Would also be interested in days 1-4.

Thanks for sharing.


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## Brian Anderson

Ariel Peldunas said:


> He probably got distracted and started focusing on something else ...shiny objects. :lol:
> 
> I always intend to video my training sessions in hopes of being able to critique myself when I go back and watch it or being able to share it with others. Hopefully, with two of us motivated to break out the camera, we can start capturing more of what we do with the dogs and pups ...for those who care to see it.


I'd appreciate that myself. I too was enjoying that stuff. Those damn "shiney objects" are a weakness of mine too ... and cost a lot of $$ LOL


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## David Frost

Ariel Peldunas said:


> Now our secret is out! I guess I should just go back to batting my eyelashes and training sport dogs and Mike can post some more videos of them chewing on copper pipes.


You're on the right track, but still need to do a couple of things. You need to change whatever it is you call your procedure, write a book, then, rather than discuss it in public, have a link to your way of doing things. The more mysterious you make it the better. I mean just posting a video where people can see it free....... why I never. ha ha ha ha and chuckle.

DFrost


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## Jeremy Wall

Mike
Just wanted to say glad to see you posted the vids of this stuff and thanks for the hospitality this week. I was impressed to see this type of work being done with dogs so young. I can only imagine this type of early work will set these dogs up to be ahead of their peers when the real detection training begins. By the way, my arm is still black, blue, and yellow/green....had a great time can't wait to get back from the sandbox and pick up my project.


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## aric johnson

Ariel Peldunas said:


> Honestly, Stephanie, I really just love experimenting and figuring out different ways to do things. I also think it's pretty awesome to watch puppies learn because you can really see the wheels turning. I wanted to start doing some odor work with the puppies because training, watching and learning is what I really enjoy. Mike supported that and now I believe he's really enjoying it (evident by the fact that even while I've been away this week, he's been working the puppies every day). Honestly, I wouldn't mind training some dogs in the future or helping other people to learn the techniques we have success with, but my goal is not to get rich doing so. If it was, why would we be posting video showing people how we are training the pups? We'd just show the finished product and slap a price tag on it.
> 
> Would you be so quick to think it was marketing if I had posted the videos? Do you really think the WDF is a good place to source clients? It seems like this is the place you come if you want people to criticize the way you do things. But, I believe there are still some members out there who are actually interested in how other people do things and might like to see what we're playing around with, so why not share some video? I'd watch it if I wasn't me ...and would appreciate the learning that was taking place.
> 
> It's not hard to figure out how we started the pups, if you use some common sense. We do have some video from Day 1 or 2, I think, but you'd really only see some shots of my butt engulfing the screen as I hadn't figured out that I needed to stay out of the way. If you're really interested, let me know and I can break down the method we're using. I have a feeling that's not the case and you're just trying to be disagreeable, so I'm not going to waste my time.



I am starting my dog into the sport nose work and would love a quick run down of how you get the dog to go for the scent. My dog is not super toy driven but she has a high food drive do I think our method would work great. If you could take a min to give me a quick breakdown I would really appreciate it. I have her playing a search for food game pretty well but most of the other methods I've looked into are based in the dog playing win the scent. Havin it in a tube I can feed her in (that's what I assume your doing, kind of tough to see on my phone at the moment) would be much better for her. Thanks!


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## Edward Egan

Can anyone see a reason this method wouldn't transfer over to learning article's (human scent) in IPO?


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## Christopher Smith

F the BS. Doesn't matter to me why you posted the videos. I really found it interesting and gives me some food for thought. Thanks guys.


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## Christopher Smith

Edward Egan said:


> Can anyone see a reason this method wouldn't transfer over to learning article's (human scent) in IPO?


I think scenting part is unpractical because of cross contamination. But I think the tubes could work to teach the dog correct position for indications.


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## Gerald Dunn

thank you, would like to see more, forget about the BS people on here


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## Steve Estrada

Mike & Ariel, thanks for your efforts, I personally appreciate them. I also understood Will because I know the kind of person he is,"positive". Why some feel the need to say anything because of their issues is beyond me. I love every opportunity to learn even if something isn't all that. Focusing on the wrong thing gives no opportunity to learn. Hope Mike & Ariel keep offering what they do or maybe we need another forum line for positive comments only!


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## mike suttle

this is the way we really do it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ieW27HP-WCw


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## Lindsay Janes

Can anyone cares to explain what is "cross contamination?"


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## Edward Egan

Lindsay Janes said:


> Can anyone cares to explain what is "cross contamination?"


Crossing of two or more scents unintentionally. Example: Handler touches plastic bag containing Marijuana, dog now has two scents to work through.


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## Harry Keely

mike suttle said:


> we are very anal about avoiding any cross contamination and making sure the dogs are working on pure odor only. We are proofing them off as we go, that's why the distractor tubes have rubber gloves, plastic bags, food, etc. We have a total of 18 tubes, 17 of them are distractor odors.
> Ariel's meticulous attention to detail in scent work is amazing, she is the most thorough trainer I have seen doing it.


not knocking it Mike, was just throwing it out there, because alot of folks think and have differing thoughts. Was not trying to take anything away from you or her.:grin:


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## Harry Keely

will fernandez said:


> Marketing and showing off your training is fine. when the other one pipes in it makes me laugh.
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I510 using Tapatalk





will fernandez said:


> just like the seed more marketing--but now a competitor is trying to butt in and show how much better his way is....


Will who and what are you referencing too, if its my conversation with him then all I was doing was networking and trying to share ideas, it wasnt to compete](*,).


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## mike suttle

Here are a couple video clips of the pups for the guy who just said I am working them for food on odor because they don't have enough play drive to work for a toy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F9asmbAOrR4&feature=BFa&list=UUsBwSSZg7-4FkkW1pWhuM8A&lf=plcp

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kEKgRKlqtXY&list=UUsBwSSZg7-4FkkW1pWhuM8A&index=1&feature=plcp

They are not extreme puppies, but they have plenty of drive to work for a toy, and they are solid and stable everywhere. We are imprinting them on food for a reason, they will be switched over to a toy in time. I'd say their toy drive is normal, not as good as one of Don's pups of the same age I'm sure, but still good enough to be useful in training.


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## Howard Knauf

mike suttle said:


> Here are a couple video clips of the pups for the guy who just said I am working them for food on odor because they don't have enough play drive to work for a toy.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F9asmbAOrR4&feature=BFa&list=UUsBwSSZg7-4FkkW1pWhuM8A&lf=plcp
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kEKgRKlqtXY&list=UUsBwSSZg7-4FkkW1pWhuM8A&index=1&feature=plcp



Nope. Those dogs will never work for a toy.](*,)


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## aric johnson

mike suttle said:


> Here are a couple video clips of the pups for the guy who just said I am working them for food on odor because they don't have enough play drive to work for a toy.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F9asmbAOrR4&feature=BFa&list=UUsBwSSZg7-4FkkW1pWhuM8A&lf=plcp
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kEKgRKlqtXY&list=UUsBwSSZg7-4FkkW1pWhuM8A&index=1&feature=plcp
> 
> They are not extreme puppies, but they have plenty of drive to work for a toy, and they are solid and stable everywhere. We are imprinting them on food for a reason, they will be switched over to a toy in time. I'd say their toy drive is normal, not as good as one of Don's pups of the same age I'm sure, but still good enough to be useful in training.


Nice videos! I wasn't saying you were training with food ecause your dogs had no toy drive... I was saying my dog has less than useful toy drive... Sorry for the confusion. I like your set-up because it would be better for me than the boxes I've seen with the hole for the ball drops... I was unsure how you started the dogs on the sAcent.


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## mike suttle

aric johnson said:


> Nice videos! I wasn't saying you were training with food ecause your dogs had no toy drive... I was saying my dog has less than useful toy drive... Sorry for the confusion. I like your set-up because it would be better for me than the boxes I've seen with the hole for the ball drops... I was unsure how you started the dogs on the sAcent.


 I wasn't talking about you, I recieved a PM from an expert who said that.


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## Terrasita Cuffie

I also am curious how you introduced them to the odor. Did you start with these tubes or otherwise?

Terrasita


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## aric johnson

Haha, got ya. I liked your design tho. My dog will follow a piece of steak around all day but she would rather follow the smell of anything han work for her toy. (we are working on that) but I'd like to take advantage of sniffer she has. It seems like getting the pup's nose inthe tube and feeding would be a good start with one tube w/ scent. That's what I was going to do, but I didn't know if that was the best way? 6 sessions is awesome results in my opinion. If you could p.m me with some tips I would greatly appreciate it


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## mike suttle

With these two puppies we started them on those tubes. With our current litter that is now 3 weeks old we will start them in a few days with a puppy feeding pad loaded with target odor, and around 6 weeks we will move them to the tubes.


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## aric johnson

Ok, so you start with the puppies looking for the food, then put the food with the scent. Then pull the food and they just look for the scent? Or do you start with just one tube with scent and reward for interest?


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## mike suttle

aric johnson said:


> Ok, so you start with the puppies looking for the food, then put the food with the scent. Then pull the food and they just look for the scent? Or do you start with just one tube with scent and reward for interest?


call me.....304-661-5758


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## Harry Keely

Gotta love trying to communicate with folks through a f**king computer screen, hence why I try not posting on the public forums anymore and if I do its very very vague at best, because anything to serious gets blown way out of proportion on them. I save that for the phone.

Now back to my Giants spanking those Packer **** AHHHHHHHHH HAHAHAHA


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## Terrasita Cuffie

mike suttle said:


> With these two puppies we started them on those tubes. With our current litter that is now 3 weeks old we will start them in a few days with a puppy feeding pad loaded with target odor, and around 6 weeks we will move them to the tubes.


So did you just wait until they sniffed the marijuana tube and mark/reward?

Terrasita


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## Marta Wajngarten

How do you build this contraption? Looks very cool. Is this some thing you use only to start dogs and use food for reward inside the tube or can you also use this if you want to progress to rewarding with a ball? Can you throw a ball in there?? 
I have dogs that will work equally well for both, although I introduce any thing new with food as they concentrate better with that in the picture.


----------



## Brian Anderson

Harry Keely said:


> Gotta love trying to communicate with folks through a f**king computer screen, hence why I try not posting on the public forums anymore and if I do its very very vague at best, because anything to serious gets blown way out of proportion on them. I save that for the phone.
> 
> Now back to my Giants spanking those Packer **** AHHHHHHHHH HAHAHAHA


Harry it can be mind bendingly impossible on some things. I hear ya!!


----------



## Britney Pelletier

David Frost said:


> You need to change whatever it is you call your procedure, write a book, then, rather than discuss it in public, have a link to your way of doing things.
> DFrost


Is there something wrong with people who write books and discuss things in public? :-s


----------



## Harry Keely

Brian Anderson said:


> Harry it can be mind bendingly impossible on some things. I hear ya!!


Its amazing. it really is, although I am going to start a thread in a second here that kinda rubs off another one from somewhere else and see where it gos, because I really am curious to peoples trains of thoughts on it. So I'm sure we will get some educational answers for sure:-\":lol:, reason I am going to put it here, is I believe they have some great folks there but this forum in numbers is very much bigger so hopely get some responses, will see though.


----------



## Thomas Barriano

Super video, thanks for posting.
Do you have any details on the construction/assembly of the scent tubes?


----------



## Joby Becker

Britney Pelletier said:


> Is there something wrong with people who write books and discuss things in public? :-s


I think he was saying rather than discuss it in public, write a book and sell the info...


----------



## Harry Keely

Thomas Barriano said:


> Super video, thanks for posting.
> Do you have any details on the construction/assembly of the scent tubes?


Once again not stealing nothing from mike, Thomas you can pause his first video and kinda get a pen and paper and make a list, its truly very simple and all parts come from a home depot or lowes,etc...... ( not being sarcastic ), its PVC - wood - and screws, then of course your scents of your choice. You can really make it anyway or size you want depending on the age and breed, very very similar to the scent walls. Or you can just go with a standard size for all.


----------



## Thomas Barriano

Harry Keely said:


> Once again not stealing nothing from mike, Thomas you can pause his first video and kinda get a pen and paper and make a list, its truly very simple and all parts come from a home depot or lowes,etc...... ( not being sarcastic ), its PVC - wood - and screws, then of course your scents of your choice. You can really make it anyway or size you want depending on the age and breed, very very similar to the scent walls. Or you can just go with a standard size for all.


Why try to guess on the construction and Material when you can just ask? Do the elbows come with the hole in the back for delivering reward? What are the "screens" that block access to the source odor


----------



## Chris McDonald

Thomas Barriano said:


> Why try to guess on the construction and Material when you can just ask? Do the elbows come with the hole in the back for delivering reward? What are the "screens" that block access to the source odor


Intelligent? Eh


----------



## Harry Keely

Thomas Barriano said:


> Why try to guess on the construction and Material when you can just ask? Do the elbows come with the hole in the back for delivering reward? What are the "screens" that block access to the source odor


elbows are usually a 4 to 6 inch diameter and the screens are pvc or metal that can be found in the same part of where the elbows are, the back of the elbows are open and some people cap them off some dont, I prefer capping off behind source or on blanks. the plank is a piece of plywood, as far as the reward sides I am not 100% sure but you can always use a dremel to achieve the same big enough to stick you hand in for reward. then your standard sheet rock screw work just find.

As far as length and how many is up to you, I would say at least 4 to 6 minium and have seen upwards of many more as the pups and dogs learn more.


----------



## Bob Scott

Great videos Mike!


----------



## Thomas Barriano

Chris McDonald said:


> Intelligent? Eh


Chris,

You've got to get over your obsession with everything I post and bringing up my name in topics I have no part in. You don't want 
Mc CONnery getting jealous of all the attention you're giving me


----------



## Chris McDonald

Thomas Barriano said:


> Chris,
> 
> You've got to get over your obsession with everything I post and bringing up my name in topics I have no part in. You don't want
> Mc CONnery getting jealous of all the attention you're giving me


 
Kinda a two way street there don’t you think?


----------



## Thomas Barriano

Chris McDonald said:


> Kinda a two way street there don’t you think?


I think none of this has anything to do with the video that Mike posted.


----------



## Chris McDonald

Thomas Barriano said:


> I think none of this has anything to do with the video that Mike posted.


?


----------



## Konnie Hein

Pat Nolan is a talented trainer for sure (and is also a super nice person). He's been doing this type of work with pups for a while now, and has several nice youtube vids (with narration for explanations) of his work. I don't read or post often here any more, but I'm looking forward to seeing future vids of the progress of Mike and Ariel's pups.

This video might be helpful to folks who have questions about the construction of the tubes, since it shows an up-close view of them not attached to the board. I thought Pat had a vid on his youtube page that had an even more in-depth view of them, but I was unable to find it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gT1MDLvGpy0&feature=channel_video_title

Pat owned the above pup for just about a week when he made this vid. If you look through the list of vids on his youtube page (www.youtube.com/patnolan), you can find a few more of these same types of vids.


----------



## mike suttle

Here are the three PVC pieces, the tube is 4" 45 degree angle, I used a 2" hole saw to drill in the back side of the tube. Make sure the hole is low on the tube so you can reward the pup for placing his nose on the screen closest to the odor. I used 1 1/2 lag bolts to secure it to the 2" x 12" treated pine board that I cut 6' long on one bank of tubes, and for the rest of the tubes I used 12''X12" boards to hold each tube individually. Leave the lag bolts up high enough and make sure the heads are small enough so you can roatate the flange at the bottom and quickly change the tubes on the line up.


----------



## mike suttle

here are the part numbers for the PVC pieces, I got it at Lowes.


----------



## Bob Scott

Mike, is the target scent always in the same tube? If not how do you clean it or handle the residual scent from changing tubes?


----------



## mike suttle

Bob Scott said:


> Mike, is the target scent always in the same tube? If not how do you clean it or handle the residual scent from changing tubes?


Yes, all three pieces are one set,(the base, the screen, and the 45degree elbow tube) each set has its own odor that does not get mixed up. When we switch the tubes around, we switch the whole set. I wash all of the sets at the end of each training day to make sure their is no odor of drool or any residual hot dog odor in the target tube, even though we have distractor odor everywhere anyway.
I double bag the target odor in two zip lock bags and always replace the outer bag after EACH session to make sure their is never any drool odor or hot dog crumbs that may have fallen through the screen and contacted the outer bag containing the target odor.


----------



## Stephanie Johnson

Brian Anderson said:


> that is not what I have read in the past (which is how I formed that conclusion based on what people actually gave as reasons for not posting) but its your right to disagree.... :wink:


I thank you Mr. Anderson for your permission to voice my opinion.

Does it not seem incongruous to you that a person who owns/breeds/trains large, dominant dogs would be afraid of words on a computer screen?


----------



## Stephanie Johnson

mike suttle said:


> Believe me, I have enough people on a waiting list for puppies that I dont have to market them here. The first few days are pretty boring really, but I have a litter here now that is about 3 weeks old, they will begin imprinting work in a few days, I can film that for you if you want to watch puppies eating from a food bowl.
> I was asked two days ago to video how i do it, so yesterday i got out the camera and videod it for someone, i just posted it on here in case anyone else wanted to see it.
> I dont recall seeing any videos from you on here Stephanie, but if you posted any, were you trying to market anything by doing so?


Based on the questions being asked, showing the progression of the puppies featured in the ot video leading up to the ot video would be a more efficient and honest representation of your methodology. "Call me" is a sales pitch - more marketing.
I am not interested in watching three week old puppies eating, unless they are my own. What would interest me would be seeing a finished dog (that would involve an actual certification and not dogs that have been trained to pass an evaluation) trained by you using these methods.
Thank you for your sharing your expertise.


----------



## David Frost

Britney Pelletier said:


> Is there something wrong with people who write books and discuss things in public? :-s


It's a joke Britney, obviously, not a very good one. 

DFrost


----------



## Selena van Leeuwen

nice vid, Mike & Ariel.

Also looked at Pat Nolans vind with lil Mann. Admire his handling skills.


----------



## Brian Anderson

Stephanie Johnson said:


> I thank you Mr. Anderson for your permission to voice my opinion.
> 
> Does it not seem incongruous to you that a person who owns/breeds/trains large, dominant dogs would be afraid of words on a computer screen?


Not permission ... I don't have that authority nor would I care to have it. Just because I disagree with someone doesn't make me right and invalidate their point of view. Not long ago it was an actual topic here on the forum. I'm sure you can search and find the discussion. With that said I don't really give a shit one way or the other. Perhaps you can address the subject here and help those who seem to be having a problem rather than finding fault with my statement to someone besides yourself. 

I look forward to your actually lending something constructive to the conversation. Or are you just a critic?


----------



## Edward Egan

Stephanie Johnson said:


> Based on the questions being asked, showing the progression of the puppies featured in the ot video leading up to the ot video would be a more efficient and honest representation of your methodology. "Call me" is a sales pitch - more marketing.
> I am not interested in watching three week old puppies eating, unless they are my own. What would interest me would be seeing a finished dog (that would involve an actual certification and not dogs that have been trained to pass an evaluation) trained by you using these methods.
> Thank you for your sharing your expertise.


Wow your a piece of work! You ask Mike to show progression, then tell him it would be more honest that way, then you go on and call him out about marketing! Then proceed to tell him what your not interterested in and what you are interested in as if him should make videos taylored to your liking! Didn't even say please!

Get off the "More Marketing" crap. Mike has in the past offered more way more info on training and breeding than marketing. Sure he's sold a few dogs to members here, big freaking deal! He earned it. :roll:](*,):roll:](*,)And if your so offended by his "Marketing" there is an ignore button. Although I'm not sure Mike could handle you using it!


----------



## Timothy Stacy

Howard Knauf said:


> Nope. Those dogs will never work for a toy.](*,)


WTF are you talking about?


----------



## Timothy Stacy

David Frost said:


> It's a joke Britney, obviously, not a very good one.
> 
> DFrost


Amen to that! Haha chuckle chuckle!
You have a lot to learn here in this scent work so just keep your hands in your pockets and stop typing BS to make people think you know more than just basics!


----------



## mike suttle

Stephanie Johnson said:


> Based on the questions being asked, showing the progression of the puppies featured in the ot video leading up to the ot video would be a more efficient and honest representation of your methodology. "Call me" is a sales pitch - more marketing.
> I am not interested in watching three week old puppies eating, unless they are my own. What would interest me would be seeing a finished dog (that would involve an actual certification and not dogs that have been trained to pass an evaluation) trained by you using these methods.
> Thank you for your sharing your expertise.


You said you wanted to see it from the beginning, that starts very early on when they are eating from a food bowl loaded with target odor, so do you want to see it,or dont you?
"call me" was for the guy who had a legitimate desire to learn about this sytem, he called, we tallked for about 20 minutes or so about it, maybe he will jump back on here and tell you how much "marketing" and "sales pitching" I did with him.


----------



## mike suttle

here is a short video explanation of the assembly of the scent tubes

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CQqZYka7zYU&feature=youtu.be


----------



## Dave Martin

Thanks for posting these videos, Mike. Definitely taught me something.


----------



## Joby Becker

Stephanie Johnson said:


> Based on the questions being asked, showing the progression of the puppies featured in the ot video leading up to the ot video would be a more efficient and honest representation of your methodology. "Call me" is a sales pitch - more marketing.
> I am not interested in watching three week old puppies eating, unless they are my own. What would interest me would be seeing a finished dog (that would involve an actual certification and not dogs that have been trained to pass an evaluation) trained by you using these methods.
> Thank you for your sharing your expertise.


Well I could be 100% wrong, but it seems this is a newer method and activity for them. So you will probably have to wait, and even then you will probably not see the dogs after they certify, because they will be working...

I "think" that Mike has probably raised and/or sold alot of dogs that went on to be certified...starting with the training he has put on them. Maybe this will add to the success rate...or maybe they will be taking a more active role in doing the training involved for certification..what is wrong with that?

either way. I think he might be more likely to actually show the progression, if people like you are not hounding him on here constantly...every time he posts a video, so if you are interested in seeing it for real, how about you watch the videos as they come along, and stop trying to foster an environment that may dissuade them from sharing vids of the progression and methods being used with the people that are interested in seeing them....


----------



## Ariel Peldunas

Stephanie Johnson said:


> Based on the questions being asked, showing the progression of the puppies featured in the ot video leading up to the ot video would be a more efficient and honest representation of your methodology. "Call me" is a sales pitch - more marketing.


"Call me" is Mike's way of avoiding typing a novel. He hates it. I don't mind it. So, now that I finally have a minute to sit down, I will try to explain what we've been doing to get to this point.

I've been playing around with odor work of this nature and puppies for a few years. Pat Nolan and I have been friends for a while and he and I attended a Randy Hare seminar back in 2007. Yes, I went to a seminar where I learned the same thing as 20 other people and left there brainwashed, unable to think on my own. In all seriousness, I had been training detection using other methods that worked well, but I was impressed with the lack of handler/trainer intervention that was used in his method and the emphasis on letting the dog learn rather than "teaching." I came up with some other constructions for using the same methodology with puppies that I had success with, but honestly, Pat's construction made the most sense and I didn't think it was necessary to try to improve upon something that works just to say my way is better. Pat's idea was the best I'd seen and he's like Mike and I, he likes to share the things he's doing, contribute ideas that will encourage people to be thoughtful and think outside the box and hopefully make dog trainers better as a whole. Mike already explained the construction of the scent tubes and you can see them in the videos he posted and also the ones that Konnie posted of Pat working his pups.

I not not sure exactly how Pat starts his pups and I'm not saying the way we do it is the best, but this is what we did and I think it's worked out well so far. 

We started with one tube, feeding through the hole in the back. We didn't have odor in the tube at this point. We were simply just showing the pups that sticking their heads in the tube could produce a reward. At this time, we also started showing them that they had to ignore the reward to get the reward. This was done by holding the bulk of the food in one hand, letting the pups know it was there, but only rewarding through the tube once they put their heads in.

Next, we took the line up of tubes and put food in each one. This was to now encourage them to check each tube. They figured that part out pretty quickly. Keep in mind, we were starting with pretty young pups who had a lot of interest in other things besides PVC tubes sitting on the floor. We made sure the pups were hungry and tried to redirect them back to the tubes when they decided chewing on my boots or visited the crated dog next to them was more interesting. I think just feeding them out of the tubes for a couple days was a pretty important step. Once the pups were checking the tubes each time they passed, we moved on to the next step.

The day we introduced the odor, we had all 6 tubes set up they way they were in the video Mike posted. Kibble was the food distraction. Everything else was the same. At this time, we were using kibble as a reward. We've progressed to using hot dogs because hot dogs seem more exciting that shoes and the other crap lying around the garage. I think we put the pseudo in Tube 5, but I don't think that matters for sake of explanation. We washed all the tubes prior to starting odor to minimize the drool/food odor. However, I'm pretty anal (as Mike mentioned) about making sure all the tubes smell the same (wiping the kibble/hot dog drool from my hand on to the non-target pipes). I think if you don't do this, the target pipe winds up with a lot more of that odor and if you're doing multiple run throughs with different dogs, there's a chance that they are recognizing that odor rather than the target. 

Okay, so we have odor in Tube 5 and the others have gloves, bags, food and a tennis ball (all under the screen in the tubes so they can't get to any of it). Of course, the puppies wanted to go to the tube with food because they had been eating out of the tubes for a couple days, so the first couple repetitions were one of us holding the puppy back and the other one showing them food through the odor tube and then rewarding once the puppy stuck it's nose in the hole. At this point, it's important to make sure the food distraction tube is secure so there's no way the puppy can get to that food. And then it was really a waiting game. After showing the puppy that reward was available somewhere other than the food distraction tube, we started allowing them to figure it out on their own. They could try as hard as they wanted to get the food out of the distraction tube, but the only success came when they put their noses in the odor tube. This was really the only time we helped show them where to go because frustration and puppy attention span made them more inclined to find something else to do if they weren't rewarded quickly enough.

From there, we would do a short session with each pup, move the tubes and then do another short session with each pup with the odor in a new location. Throughout the sessions, we're showing the puppies the bowls of food, food in our hand, food in the little egg saucer things next to the tubes and really trying to convince them that something else is more important than odor. As soon as they commit to staying with the target odor, we reward.

Oh, I'm sure the final response is in question, also. Neither pup knew a sit or a down before starting this. The positioning of the tubes and the fact that the pups liked to "camp out" once they figured out where they were getting fed made it easy to just wait for them to offer something other than standing/barking/scratching and then reward that. Bailey started downing I think during the first session. She offers sits and downs ...it's just a matter of rewarding what you want and then adding the cue in when you see the dog is offering the same behavior at the same time. Morgan was a bit more difficult. If we tried to wait for a sit or a down, he'd often get frustrated, start pawing/scratching/barking or find something else to do. With him, we had to just reward him being still with his nose in the tube and then, eventually, he gave a sit or a down and we could reward that. We never told them to sit or down ...which wouldn't have mattered because they didn't know it anyway. We just rewarded them doing it and added the cue once the behavior was predictable.

Now that the pups know the pseudo MJ, we're going to introduce the pseudo Cocaine and pseudo Heroin the same way. Also, we're moving the odor off the line up and to different locations, but keeping the same basic concept ...stick your nose in the hole with odor to produce a reward. I've been away, so Mike's been at home tinkering away with different variations to start using. Hopefully he won't have too much fun before I get back and can start helping again. I'll make sure to have the video camera more readily available so Stephanie doesn't have to complain about missing portions of the training progress.


----------



## Ariel Peldunas

Stephanie Johnson said:


> What would interest me would be seeing a finished dog (that would involve an actual certification and not dogs that have been trained to pass an evaluation) trained by you using these methods.


I have a lab I trained using this methodology ...not the exact same set up, but the same concept. Unfortunately (for the sake of demonstrating this method), I then started using her for a different project that required the dogs to be recalled off the odor back to the handler for reward once they had alerted, so it contradicted the "reward at source" training. Here's a video of her, but honestly, it's nothing terribly exciting.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hliXpRVrVKE&list=UUELUA2YXTMDJyyDViDf9MkA&index=18&feature=plcp

She runs down a path, finds the explosive at the end and comes back to me for a reward. If you'd like to see her work, you're more than welcome to come visit and I can bring her out for you. Hurry, though, because a friend of mine is taking her some time in the next month to run hunt tests and field trials with her and maybe offer her services doing contract explosive sweeps.

The exact set up isn't really the important part of the training method ...it's the fact that using any system similar to this teaches the dogs that nothing is important but odor ...not the handler, not distractions, not rewards that seem to be available. If you want to see a finished product using this methodology, watch some of Randy Hare's videos. We're using his concept, but doing it with food and puppies. 

There had been some mention about doing his with toys. My feeling is that using food with puppies is easier and builds a stonger association. Right now, both of these pups show interest in objects (pipes, balls, tugs, etc.), but they've not started learning how to hunt for anything and don't really have one favorite in particular. A ball or pipe just sitting on the ground (or in a tube) may not have as much value to them at any given moment if there is something more exciting around. In order to encourage them to explore the tubes and remain with odor, we needed to associate the exercise with something rewarding. Food is pretty important to these puppies and it's pretty easy to get most puppies interested in something delicious, so it just makes sense to start that way. As they get older and have more drive for a particular toy and understand how to search for it, we will transition to toys.


----------



## Howard Knauf

Timothy Stacy said:


> WTF are you talking about?


 It's called sarcasm. Of course they'll work for a toy. Have you become such a sour puss you don't recognize sarcasm?


----------



## shawn murace

I appreciate the videos an for you taking the time to write it all down.


----------



## Thomas Barriano

Konnie, Mike and Ariel

WTF are you guys trying to start here? You post useful detailed information with videos and part numbers and then you even respond to questions?

Seriously thanks. This is what I believe the WDF should be about


----------



## Peta Het

Cool thread, thanks for posting the videos and the parts description. Can you tell me where I can get the MJ? 

LOL. Seriously, thanks for the info, I am going to make some of these too.


----------



## Tyree Johnson

i've called that number 5x, been in his kennel and nice that kitchen ..... never once tried to sell me anything ..... and we're both straight 

i appreciate it .... drama free at loganhaus, at least on Mikes side it is


----------



## Ariel Peldunas

Peta Het said:


> Cool thread, thanks for posting the videos and the parts description. Can you tell me where I can get the MJ?
> 
> LOL. Seriously, thanks for the info, I am going to make some of these too.


I know of two companies making pseudo/non-narcotic training aids ...Sigma-Aldrich and Scentlogix. You can Google them and compare prices from different distributors. I don't want to promote one or the other, I've heard different opinions on both. I'd like to start some pups on one and some on the other and test to see which, if either, have better recognition of actual (non-pseudo) drug/explosive odor. When we do so, I'll let you know the results.


----------



## mike suttle

Peta Het said:


> Can you tell me where I can get the MJ?


http://www.scentlogix.com/


----------



## mike suttle

Thomas Barriano said:


> Konnie, Mike and Ariel
> 
> WTF are you guys trying to start here? You post useful detailed information with videos and part numbers and then you even respond to questions?
> 
> Seriously thanks. This is what I believe the WDF should be about


Thanks Thomas,
It's nice to know at least a few people find what we are sharing useful. The training itself is very simple and basic at this point, I'm sure most of the people on here can figure out how to use the set up more easily than how to make it. That is why I posted detailed info on each part, the part numbers and place to get it, and how to assemble it. We will try to film more of the actual use of it as we go now. I have another project I just made using a wall system, but I want my training director to get home and give me her stamp of approval before I post anything on here about that.:-D


----------



## Bob Scott

Mike, thanks for the explinition on how you keep the scent tubes separated, etc. The video is also great. 
Another tool in the tool box! ;-)


----------



## Konnie Hein

Ariel Peldunas said:


> I've been playing around with odor work of this nature and puppies for a few years. Pat Nolan and I have been friends for a while and he and I attended a Randy Hare seminar back in 2007. Yes, I went to a seminar where I learned the same thing as 20 other people and left there brainwashed, unable to think on my own.


I was at the same seminar, and have also been accused of being similarly brainwashed. So, perhaps there is some truth to that


----------



## mike suttle

I'd like to add that we are not taking any credit for coming up with some new idea here. We are taking ideas that have been around for a very long time and adjusting them to be useful for baby puppies.
I love the Randy Hare method and I feel it is one of the clearest ways to train the dog. This is a modified version of his ideas. We have a couple racks of Hare boxes that we will use with these puppies later.
I also have used (and still use sometimes) the BSD system from Dan Reiter. Dan is a great guy and his system is in my opinion by far the fastest and easiest way to teach a dog the odor recognition, and the final passive response. I can teach a dog to find target odor and sit in only a few minutes with the BSD. But after using it for several years I saw a few things from other systems that i liked a little better, so I have tried to come up with a way to mix all of these ideas that I like from every system and put them to use in our system.
I want a dog to sit and put his nose directly on the source of odor, with some of the machine operated reward from source devices the dogs will back up a few feet in anticipation of the ball flying out of the odor cone, with some other devices that are slow and use a gear driven reward delivery system the noise of the gears operating will create frustration and cause a passive dog to become active as he must wait a few seconds for the reward to be delivered while he listens to the gears turning on the device and gets overloaded with frustration.
I feel that the current system that we are using (borrowed from Mr. Pat Nolan at Ponderosa Kennels) is the best way to start with very young puppies.


----------



## Konnie Hein

Trainer who impress me the most are those who, despite already being successful, continue to actively seek out new training information to incorporate into their existing training plans. 

I really like Pat's spin on Randy's method and am very interested to watch Ariel and Mike's future vids to see if/how they apply other elements to it. Plus, it's just really cool to watch such young pups performing behaviors that some people struggle to get adult dogs perform.


----------



## Bob Scott

Konnie Hein said:


> Trainer who impress me the most are those who continue to seek out new training information to incorporate into their existing training plans.
> 
> I really like Pat's spin on Randy's method and am very interested to watch Ariel and Mike's future vids to see if/how they apply other elements to it. Plus, it's just really cool to watch such young pups performing behaviors that some people struggle to get adult dogs perform.



Amen to that! At 66 I hope I never stop learning. When I decide my way is the only way someone should kick me in the nads. .........did I say that with my outloud voice? 8-[
Obviously a method has to make at least some sence to try it. Years of trying to get it right helps in sorting that out.:wink:


----------



## Thomas Barriano

Konnie Hein said:


> I was at the same seminar, and have also been accused of being similarly brainwashed. So, perhaps there is some truth to that


Konnie,

The thing is, you can't be "brainwashed" unless you have a brain to begin with ;-)
Gonna go train dogs for a while and stop at Lowes on the way home.


----------



## Ariel Peldunas

Konnie Hein said:


> I was at the same seminar, and have also been accused of being similarly brainwashed. So, perhaps there is some truth to that


They must have drugged our water!

On a serious note, it's hard to ignore common sense and the things Randy taught just made sense. Regardless of how you apply the methodology, I just like the basic principles he taught. I've always believed letting a dog figure something out made for a stronger behavior than showing them what to do every step of the way. I really think we can't help but teach the dogs a lot of things we don't want while we're trying to teach them something we do want (handler cues, associated behaviors that become more important than the target behavior, etc.). I've made a lot of mistakes and created problems in dogs I've trained and I'm always trying to figure out how to avoid those mistakes in the future. For detection training, I really think the more we can stay out of the dog's way and make sure they are rewarded at precisely the right time, the better chance we have at being happy with the end result.


----------



## Marta Wajngarten

mike suttle said:


> here is a short video explanation of the assembly of the scent tubes
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CQqZYka7zYU&feature=youtu.be


Sweet! Thanks!!

You forgot to say at the end.. scent tubes, it's a good thing.


----------



## Brian Anderson

Ariel Peldunas said:


> They must have drugged our water!
> 
> On a serious note, it's hard to ignore common sense and the things Randy taught just made sense. Regardless of how you apply the methodology, I just like the basic principles he taught. I've always believed letting a dog figure something out made for a stronger behavior than showing them what to do every step of the way. I really think we can't help but teach the dogs a lot of things we don't want while we're trying to teach them something we do want (handler cues, associated behaviors that become more important than the target behavior, etc.). I've made a lot of mistakes and created problems in dogs I've trained and I'm always trying to figure out how to avoid those mistakes in the future. For detection training, I really think the more we can stay out of the dog's way and make sure they are rewarded at precisely the right time, the better chance we have at being happy with the end result.


I can relate to this on almost every level. Nice to see accomplished trainers have to deal with the same problems and short comings. I find a lot of my mistakes are mental and those seem to be the most damaging.


----------



## David Frost

mike suttle said:


> The training itself is very simple and basic at this point, I'm sure most of the people on here can figure out how to use the set up more easily than how to make it. -D


Exactly why I posted my obviously poor joke. It is very basic with no attempt at making it seem like rocket science. It is, in fact, right up my alley. Granted I don't do puppies and I use boxes, but the principle is the same. Effective, efficient and user friendly. 

I certainly didn't see anything is this thread that should have been a paid advertisement. I haven't heard any of the other moderators express any concern either.

DFrost

DFrost


----------



## Brian Anderson

Konnie Hein said:


> Trainer who impress me the most are those who, despite already being successful, continue to actively seek out new training information to incorporate into their existing training plans.
> 
> I really like Pat's spin on Randy's method and am very interested to watch Ariel and Mike's future vids to see if/how they apply other elements to it. Plus, it's just really cool to watch such young pups performing behaviors that some people struggle to get adult dogs perform.


Konnie I was about to post a similiar thought. Although Im sure mine would not have been nearly as well said as yours...thanks


----------



## aric johnson

mike suttle said:


> You said you wanted to see it from the beginning, that starts very early on when they are eating from a food bowl loaded with target odor, so do you want to see it,or dont you?
> "call me" was for the guy who had a legitimate desire to learn about this sytem, he called, we tallked for about 20 minutes or so about it, maybe he will jump back on here and tell you how much "marketing" and "sales pitching" I did with him.


Actually mike totally sold me.... He sold me on going to the store with a concept in mind and finding a way to make it work. We discussed how he uses the tubes on his pupies and how I could adapt it to my 6 month old dog, since she would be a little big for the system, and we discussed how he imprints the puppies, and I went on his website and looked around a bit. I am looking to train my dog for sport, so there would be no point in him selling me a dog, since I won't be looking for bombs any time soon. He had alot of great info on how simple it is to make the couple of training aids he uses. I also have alot of respect for anyone who has served in the military, and forgot to thank him for his service, so I'll take that opportunity now. From one soldier to another, thanks for the info, and anyone who thinks Mike is trying to sell something should take a minute to call and ask him for info on training and see what he trys to sell you... He even gave me info on a trainer more local to me, and still offered me 20 min worth of free info. Seems to me like Mike genuinely loves his job, and talking about it. Too bad more trainers weren't so nice, there would be a higher standard of dog nationwide, a legitimate established apprentice program available for people interested in becoming trainers, and less of a chance for competition from less than qualified people undercutting everyone because they didn't have to spend time and money learning the trade.... Just saying.


----------



## Stephanie Johnson

mike suttle said:


> You said you wanted to see it from the beginning, that starts very early on when they are eating from a food bowl loaded with target odor, so do you want to see it,or dont you?
> "call me" was for the guy who had a legitimate desire to learn about this sytem, he called, we tallked for about 20 minutes or so about it, maybe he will jump back on here and tell you how much "marketing" and "sales pitching" I did with him.


Please don't misquote me Mr. Suttle. I expressed interest in sessions 1,2,3,4, and 5. You state on the voice over of the ot video that this was the sixth session for the puppies. Since the puppies are 10 weeks old in the video, that would mean a training session for them approx. every week and a half if they were started at 3 weeks of age and if that is when their beginning training session occurred. Is that correct?
Also, your statement regarding loading the food bowl with odor contradicts the training sequence that Ms. Peldunas posted.


----------



## Ariel Peldunas

mike suttle said:


> With these two puppies we started them on those tubes. With our current litter that is now 3 weeks old we will start them in a few days with a puppy feeding pad loaded with target odor, and around 6 weeks we will move them to the tubes.


Because you obviously missed this, Stephanie.


----------



## Ariel Peldunas

Stephanie Johnson said:


> Please don't misquote me Mr. Suttle. I expressed interest in sessions 1,2,3,4, and 5. You state on the voice over of the ot video that this was the sixth session for the puppies. Since the puppies are 10 weeks old in the video, that would mean a training session for them approx. every week and a half if they were started at 3 weeks of age and if that is when their beginning training session occurred. Is that correct?
> Also, your statement regarding loading the food bowl with odor contradicts the training sequence that Ms. Peldunas posted.


Your math would be correct if you had your facts straight. We imported these puppies a couple weeks back. I doubt their owners in Holland were feeding them out of food bowls loaded with odor ...although I suppose that's a possibility. When they arrived here, they were started using the training sequence I described. As Mike stated, the next litter will be started differently.

Any more questions?


----------



## mike suttle

Stephanie Johnson said:


> Please don't misquote me Mr. Suttle. I expressed interest in sessions 1,2,3,4, and 5. You state on the voice over of the ot video that this was the sixth session for the puppies. Since the puppies are 10 weeks old in the video, that would mean a training session for them approx. every week and a half if they were started at 3 weeks of age and if that is when their beginning training session occurred. Is that correct?
> Also, your statement regarding loading the food bowl with odor contradicts the training sequence that Ms. Peldunas posted.


Are you serious????? You have no idea what the hell your talking about. Do us a favor and try not to de-rail this thread with your ignorance.


----------



## Stephanie Johnson

Ariel Peldunas said:


> Your math would be correct if you had your facts straight. We imported these puppies a couple weeks back. I doubt their owners in Holland were feeding them out of food bowls loaded with odor ...although I suppose that's a possibility. When they arrived here, they were started using the training sequence I described. As Mike stated, the next litter will be started differently.
> 
> Any more questions?


Yes. Why was this thread titled "Logan haus Kennels pups" when in fact these were not Mr. Suttle's breeding?


----------



## Ariel Peldunas

Stephanie Johnson said:


> Yes. Why was this thread titled "Logan haus Kennels pups" when in fact these were not Mr. Suttle's breeding?


Really? Are you that desperate to create some sort of conflict that we have to start arguing semantics?


----------



## mike suttle

Stephanie Johnson said:


> Yes. Why was this thread titled "Logan haus Kennels pups" when in fact these were not Mr. Suttle's breeding?


ummmmmmm, maybe because they are owned by and are being raised and trained at Logan Haus Kennels????????


----------



## Stephanie Johnson

mike suttle said:


> Are you serious????? You have no idea what the hell your talking about. Do us a favor and try not to de-rail this thread with your ignorance.


There are laws in these United States governing honesty in advertisement. West Virginia is in the US, is it not Mr. Suttle? 
I mean as opposed to the Mexican location of the now defunct Energydogs, n'est pas?


----------



## Stephanie Johnson

Dog broker = Used car salesman


----------



## Ariel Peldunas

Stephanie Johnson said:


> There are laws in these United States governing honesty in advertisement. West Virginia is in the US, is it not Mr. Suttle?
> I mean as opposed to the Mexican location of the now defunct Energydogs, n'est pas?


Perhaps that would be relevant if we were advertising anything. Fortunately, we're just distributing free information.


----------



## Ariel Peldunas

Stephanie Johnson said:


> Dog broker = Used car salesman


Was that your own independent thought or another tidbit from the voice whispering in your ear?


----------



## Stephanie Johnson

Ariel Peldunas said:


> Perhaps that would be relevant if we were advertising anything. Fortunately, we're just distributing free information.


So because you are distributing free information it is OK to lie????


----------



## Christopher Jones

Dont feed the trolls Mike, its a trap....


----------



## Ariel Peldunas

Stephanie Johnson said:


> So because you are distributing free information it is OK to lie????


Who is lying? Clearly, your only motivation is to create a stir and derail this thread. We own the puppies now and are responsible for the training, so they belong to Logan Haus Kennels. If you're interested in their lineage or where we purchased them from, I'm sure Mike would be happy to discuss that with you. Otherwise, Don's really the only one I care to entertain inane arguments with.


----------



## mike suttle

For the record the Dutchie pup is out of Tyson PH II, Obj. and a female that we will have here after she is titled in Holland.
The mali is from Lucas PH 1, and Meta. Meta is a bitch that I own.
These puppies are owned by Logan Haus Kennels, not bred by Logan Haus Kennels. Sorry for the misunderstanding, didn't realize that was relevant in the detection videos I posted here.


----------



## Stephanie Johnson

Ariel Peldunas said:


> Was that your own independent thought or another tidbit from the voice whispering in your ear?


All hail the oft mis-identified Jeffanie.

When you are older and wiser Ms. Peldunas you will not feel the need to draw attention to your butt, and understand that relationships are built on common conclusions.


----------



## Stephanie Johnson

mike suttle said:


> For the record the Dutchie pup is out of Tyson PH II, Obj. and a female that we will have here after she is titled in Holland.
> The mali is from Lucas PH 1, and Meta. Meta is a bitch that I own.
> These puppies are owned by Logan Haus Kennels, not bred by Logan Haus Kennels. Sorry for the misunderstanding, didn't realize that was relevant in the detection videos I posted here.


Thank you for the clarification regarding the breeding of the puppies, Mr. Suttle.
Perhaps you could offer the same re the training?


----------



## mike suttle

Stephanie Johnson said:


> Thank you for the clarification regarding the breeding of the puppies, Mr. Suttle.
> Perhaps you could offer the same re the training?


If you would actually read our posts on here I think you'd see that we have tried to explain the training as it has been up to this point with these pups. they have had 6 sessions but I was not videoing the first ones because i didn't think about it. I was asked by a friend to get some video of it a couple days ago, so i did. I posted that video because I thought if he wanted to see it, then maybe other people did too. 
I have no idea who you are, but I suspect your real name rymes with Jeff Ohlsen. Either way, if you dont like the dogs or the training, stop watching it. But I do think there are a few people on here who are interested in this. Folks like you with nothing to inject but conflict about something you know nothing about is frustrating and makes me just stop posting training videos.
Speaking of videos.......can you post some of your training?


----------



## Stephanie Johnson

mike suttle said:


> If you would actually read our posts on here I think you'd see that we have tried to explain the training as it has been up to this point with these pups. they have had 6 sessions but I was not videoing the first ones because i didn't think about it. I was asked by a friend to get some video of it a couple days ago, so i did. I posted that video because I thought if he wanted to see it, then maybe other people did too.
> I have no idea who you are, but I suspect your real name rymes with Jeff Ohlsen. Either way, if you dont like the dogs or the training, stop watching it. But I do think there are a few people on here who are interested in this. Folks like you with nothing to inject but conflict about something you know nothing about is frustrating and makes me just stop posting training videos.
> Speaking of videos.......can you post some of your training?


First you say: "I just posted some videos of us doing some basic imprinting work with young puppies because several people have asked me how we do it" Now you say: " I was asked by a friend to get some video of it a couple days ago, so i did."
Which is it?
If you cannot offer the same story regarding why you posted a video (oh and boohoo re your threat not to post more of same if big, bad ole Stephanie continues to question your motives and delivery) why would anyone trust you to give an honest appraisal of what a "Logan Haus" puppy is and how it is being trained?
What would you like me to post video of that might possibly have any relevance to this thread?


----------



## Stephanie Johnson

And for those who are confused:
Mr. Suttle is at this moment on the phone with Jeff. 
I am not Jeff.


----------



## Joby Becker

Stephanie Johnson said:


> And for those who are confused:
> Mr. Suttle is at this moment on the phone with Jeff.
> I am not Jeff.


great..glad that is cleared up LOL, we all know it is impossible to talk on the phone and post a message at the same time 

I dont think you are Jeff....


----------



## Brian Anderson

Stephanie Johnson said:


> First you say: "I just posted some videos of us doing some basic imprinting work with young puppies because several people have asked me how we do it" Now you say: " I was asked by a friend to get some video of it a couple days ago, so i did."
> Which is it?
> If you cannot offer the same story regarding why you posted a video (oh and boohoo re your threat not to post more of same if big, bad ole Stephanie continues to question your motives and delivery) why would anyone trust you to give an honest appraisal of what a "Logan Haus" puppy is and how it is being trained?
> What would you like me to post video of that might possibly have any relevance to this thread?


Stephanie its time you put up or shut the **** up! You have spewed your bullshit long enough... pretend the forum is Missouri and show us


----------



## Joby Becker

Jeff would not bother with all the pettiness, he would just say they cant train dogs and they suck...and maybe call me gay for posting....


----------



## Brian Anderson

shows up basically wrecks a good thread. Has nothing positive to offer. 

Im ready to see what she has to offer ....


----------



## mike suttle

Stephanie Johnson said:


> First you say: "I just posted some videos of us doing some basic imprinting work with young puppies because several people have asked me how we do it" Now you say: " I was asked by a friend to get some video of it a couple days ago, so i did."
> Which is it?


It's both, several people asked me, including a good friend of mine, which is mostly why i did it.
Does it really matter to you, or anyone else if I filmed this for a friend, for several friends, or for all of the above?
I can appreciate you like to stir up shit on here, and given the crazy dude you have to live with I assume you must be at least partially crazy yourself. But I dont understand why you feel the need to de-rail what I really think could be an interesting thread. But either way, you have done it. I'm heading out to bring the dogs in for the night, and work the puppies again.


----------



## Connie Sutherland

mike suttle said:


> But I dont understand why you feel the need to de-rail what I really think could be an interesting thread. But either way, you have done it.



I'm sure it can be brought back on track.


----------



## Ariel Peldunas

Connie Sutherland said:


> I'm sure it can be brought back on track.


I'll be back to WV in a couple days with two puppies who haven't been worked on odor much at all. One, the skinny puppy, is eating better and hasn't been on odor once so I think we can get some interesting video to show the earlier steps ...provided he keeps feeling better and feels like eating.


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## Chad Sloan

Is the contact info for the person you got the pups from protected under some sort of buyer-client privilege? You know, just in case someone were interested in going to the source.


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## mike suttle

Chad Sloan said:


> Is the contact info for the person you got the pups from protected under some sort of buyer-client privilege? You know, just in case someone were interested in going to the source.


Absolutley not. These pups came from Gerben Kamphuis in Almelo, Netherlands. Gerben and I have done business together for about 8 years or so now, he's a great guy, excellent trainer and decoy, and very knowledgable breeder.


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## David Frost

"pups starting odor work"

Back on topic. 

DFrost


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

Ariel Peldunas said:


> I'll be back to WV in a couple days with two puppies who haven't been worked on odor much at all. One, the skinny puppy, is eating better and hasn't been on odor once so I think we can get some interesting video to show the earlier steps ...provided he keeps feeling better and feels like eating.


It will be interesting to see the videos but I thought your description in your previous post was pretty good for getting a grasp of the process. 

Terrasita


----------



## john axe

Mike, thanks for posting the video's great info. please post more as the progress continues. it's amazing to see pups working at that age.


----------



## Christopher Jones

mike suttle said:


> Absolutley not. These pups came from Gerben Kamphuis in Almelo, Netherlands. Gerben and I have done business together for about 8 years or so now, he's a great guy, excellent trainer and decoy, and very knowledgable breeder.


How do you like the Tyson pups? Gerben is raving about them.


----------



## Thomas Barriano

David Frost said:


> "pups starting odor work"
> 
> Back on topic.
> 
> DFrost



What was the first clue about Jeffanie the tone or the frequency of the posts? 

I went to Lowes yesterday looking for the pieces for the scent tube. GAWD there are a LOT of PVC pieces there. The bar codes didn't help a lot they wanted part numbers instead.
I'm going to another Loewes in the north end of town after a Doctors appointment today.


----------



## mike suttle

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JT4jbuLSCy4

First time in a new room today.


----------



## Edward Egan

mike suttle said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JT4jbuLSCy4
> 
> First time in a new room today.


Awsome! Is "Yes" a marker or?


----------



## mike suttle

Edward Egan said:


> Awsome! Is "Yes" a marker or?


I have been trying to use a clicker, but its hard to run the camera, a bowl full of hot dogs, and a clicker. Ariel wont be back for a day or so, then I'll go back to the clicker.


----------



## Brian Anderson

mike suttle said:


> I have been trying to use a clicker, but its hard to run the camera, a bowl full of hot dogs, and a clicker. Ariel wont be back for a day or so, then I'll go back to the clicker.


That is friggin cool!! And yes I can see the benefit of the clicker to target that exact time.


----------



## mike suttle

Bob Scott said:


> Mike, thanks for the explinition on how you keep the scent tubes separated, etc. The video is also great.
> Another tool in the tool box! ;-)


No problem Bob, but I'm just really the camera man here. Ariel has much more experience with this than me, she is just too humble to say it. It was her who got me motivated to do this work, and it was her guidance that got these pups going. I'm just feeding them and getting video of it. 
Without her and Pat Nolan I would have still been doing this the other way I used to do it.


----------



## Thomas Barriano

mike suttle said:


> Ariel wont be back for a day or so, then I'll go back to the clicker.


Mike,

You know that Ariel reads this forum and will know you weren't using the clicker like you're supposed to ?


----------



## Kelly Godwin

mike suttle said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JT4jbuLSCy4
> 
> First time in a new room today.


She looks really good man! You guys are doing an awesome job with her.


----------



## Thomas H. Elliott

Thanks Mike for sharing. Keep up the good work! Nice pups! :!:


----------



## Esther Chai

Really nice to follow the progression of your training with your puppies. Can you please remind me what those containers for kibbles lying next to those pipes for? Are they put there as distractors?
Also, are the temperament of the pups specially selected for detection prospects?

Thanks Mike Suttle and Ariel.


----------



## Bob Scott

"Without her and Pat Nolan I would have still been doing this the other way I used to do it."



That wasn't to shabby either. :lol: :wink:


----------



## mike suttle

Esther Chai said:


> Really nice to follow the progression of your training with your puppies. Can you please remind me what those containers for kibbles lying next to those pipes for? Are they put there as distractors?
> Also, are the temperament of the pups specially selected for detection prospects?
> 
> Thanks Mike Suttle and Ariel.


The food is there for a distractor, teaching them that even though they are working for food right now, they are not searching for food. They are searching for target odor, that is the only path to food. Some of the tubes have food in them as well, hot dogs, tuna fish, kibble, cat food, etc. but the puppies are learning to ignore all of those odors. We are also using several other distractor odors, coffee, cat nip, tobacco, rubber gloves, plastic bags, human scent, etc.


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

mike suttle said:


> The food is there for a distractor, teaching them that even though they are working for food right now, they are not searching for food. They are searching for target odor, that is the only path to food. Some of the tubes have food in them as well, hot dogs, tuna fish, kibble, cat food, etc. but the puppies are learning to ignore all of those odors. We are also using several other distractor odors, coffee, cat nip, tobacco, rubber gloves, plastic bags, human scent, etc.


Its the early introduction of the distraction odors and imprinting source/handler reward vs. self reward in the environment that I find the most interesting.

Terrasita


----------



## Bob Scott

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Its the early introduction of the distraction odors and imprinting source/handler reward vs. self reward in the environment that I find the most interesting.
> 
> Terrasita



Simple trial and error quickly tell the dog that reward is only available at the target odor!


----------



## Terrasita Cuffie

Bob Scott said:


> Simple trial and error quickly tell the dog that reward is only available at the target odor!


 
Simple, yes, but put there early in the process instead of later. However, for a couple of creative bouvs I know, you'd have to make sure they couldn't get those distraction containers opened. I swear they'd do it just for the hell of it. I'm also doodling around with the sport aspect of this and think it would be good foundation for my 5 month old puppy and proofing for my older dog.

T


----------



## Britney Pelletier

mike suttle said:


> No problem Bob, but I'm just really the camera man here. Ariel has much more experience with this than me, she is just too humble to say it. It was her who got me motivated to do this work, and it was her guidance that got these pups going. I'm just feeding them and getting video of it.
> Without her and Pat Nolan I would have still been doing this the other way I used to do it.



What is the old way you used to do it, Mike?


Also, what are you thoughts in regards to the usefulness of teaching them to indicate on odor at such a young age and then having to wait 10+ months for them to grow up before you can really finish the training and sell them? (not referring to these puppies specifically, but puppies in general).


----------



## Ariel Peldunas

Britney Pelletier said:


> What is the old way you used to do it, Mike?
> 
> 
> Also, what are you thoughts in regards to the usefulness of teaching them to indicate on odor at such a young age and then having to wait 10+ months for them to grow up before you can really finish the training and sell them? (not referring to these puppies specifically, but puppies in general).


Not to trying to answer for Mike, but since we've been sharing ideas and working together on the odor with the pups, I thought I'd give my thoughts. Plus, he's busy doing something productive right now while I'm wasting time on the interweb. :mrgreen:

Personally, I feel like imprinting the odor from a young age will build a stronger association with the odor later on in life. Our first discussions about this were regarding simply feeding the puppies over odor and observing them to see if that created an association that would be recognizable as they grew older. It's an idea I've tossed around for a while and I finally have someone willing to support the idea and experiment with me who has the ability to keep some puppies back to train. Also, Pat Nolan is doing things of the same nature and having some interesting results.

Beyond the basic imprinting, I think building a strong foundation for detection will create a stronger dog with more focus later on. In subsequent litters, I would like to test this idea, but I believe even if we stopped the training with the puppies once they understood the basic concept of how to search for and locate and indicate the source of a target odor, when we re-introduced them to odor work once they were mature, they would already "know the game." However, I don't believe training is ever "finished" so I think we can get a pretty big head start and use the biddability of puppies to conquer some of the major issues I see coming up in training later on (e.g. false alerts, handler cues, distractor odors, etc.).

We start tracking with puppies from a very young age. We can teach obedience and tricks to puppies. We start building a strong foundation for bite work as soon as they show the desire. Why is training puppies to detect and indicate odor unpopular or considered taboo? I know that was instilled in me when I first started in this business, but after getting out and exploring other ways to do things, I realized there's a whole lot that can be accomplished if we think outside the box. I am not sure puppies started on odor will always be better than dogs that aren't started until they are young adults, but I think they will be (provided we're using dogs of the same quality). I just need more dogs to base my information off of before I make a definitive statement on that one.

Since the inception of Logan Haus Kennels, the focus has not only been on importing young, green dogs, but also on breeding litters/importing puppies and raising and preparing puppies for the work they will be doing later on in life. We have that luxury, which most other vendors do not because they simply don't have the time or resources to put work into puppies. I hope other breeders who are interested in doing some thoughtful foundation work with their pups might get some ideas from the things we're playing around with.


----------



## Brian Anderson

I hope other breeders who are interested in doing some thoughtful foundation work with their pups might get some ideas from the things we're playing around with

Im interested in networking with you guys regarding all training. Am thankful for any help along the way too. That is why I come to the forum!


----------



## mike suttle

Britney Pelletier said:


> What is the old way you used to do it, Mike?
> 
> 
> Also, what are you thoughts in regards to the usefulness of teaching them to indicate on odor at such a young age and then having to wait 10+ months for them to grow up before you can really finish the training and sell them? (not referring to these puppies specifically, but puppies in general).


To answer your first question here Britney, the way I used to do it was with a toy delivered from a reward from source device, but with very young puppies this method was not the best and it created some habits I was not happy with. 

To answer the second question here, We dont ever wait 10 months for anything we need them to do as adults, all of the behaviors we need them to do as adults we begin to shape from the first several weeks of age here, tracking, agility, retrieving, hunting, biting, obedience, etc. The only exception is our foster puppies who see very little training until we get them back at 7-10 months to start their training. We dont wait until they are 10 months old to begin the socializing and environmental exposure, or anything else they need to see, so why should we wait to teach them to locate a target odor and learn a final response for a primary reward? At this age it is not work for them, it is basically simply self discovery, which in my opinion is a method that will stick with a dog much better than any other method. 
But the main reason that we are doing this is because it is fun and we both love to watch puppies learn and discover things. We like to keep our puppies brains working and imprint several behaviors in them as early as possible. I'm not sayiing it's the best way, I'm not trying to sell the idea to anyone else, but we do believe in it and we're going to keep doing it because we enjoy it, and the puppies enjoy it. 
It's funny to watch them run to the door and be so eager to go inside and start to search. 
I just got a phone call from a SF group in another allied country asking me if we could supply very young dogs (3-6 months) who were already started in all areas of the work, with the emphasis being on tracking, bitework, and explosives detection. Apparently there are some other people who dont want to wait 10 months either.


----------



## Bob Scott

Nothing like seeing the lights go on in a puppy!!


----------



## Britney Pelletier

mike suttle said:


> But the main reason that we are doing this is because it is fun and we both love to watch puppies learn and discover things. We like to keep our puppies brains working and imprint several behaviors in them as early as possible. I'm not sayiing it's the best way, I'm not trying to sell the idea to anyone else, but we do believe in it and we're going to keep doing it because we enjoy it, and the puppies enjoy it.
> It's funny to watch them run to the door and be so eager to go inside and start to search.



Fair enough!


----------



## Britney Pelletier

I personally, do look forward to the progression of these puppies as they mature. It will be interesting to hear about what trials and tribulations you run into, as we all know there are in dog training. :wink:

What really interests me the most about detector dogs is raw, genetic hunt drive. It isn't something that can be taught. I think what we might fail to realize here is that teaching puppies to locate an odor and be rewarded for it isn't any more scientific than teaching a puppy how to sit for food, or how to track for food. You guys are doing something that not many people have seen before, which I think is partially contributing to the mass hysteria over it.

I would also be interested in hearing your thoughts on the meaning behind the distractor odors and the process of extincting them as it pertains to the puppy. Is your marijuana wrapped in a plastic bag or just sitting in a container? If not in a plastic bag, what significance does it have to the puppy that would lead them to be distracted by it? I think the same can be said for a lot of things. If you put kongs in tubes and the puppy/dog has never once played with a kong before, that rubber odor really isn't going to have any significance to them. Is the food you use as distractors, both in the tube and in your hand, something the puppies have access to on a regular basis and have eaten many times before? My point being, it might be impressive that there's a can of cat food in a tube as a distractor odor, but with puppies not being nearly as persistent as young adults and being relatively easy to coerce into performing the behavior that most quickly generates a reward, if they've never had cat food before, it really isn't that much of a distraction to them. Later on in life after they've counter-surfed a few times and stolen your hamburger or steak and are a little more mentally mature and headstrong, it would be interesting to see a steak or hamburger in the tubes as a distractor.

The same would apply to toys. If the puppy/dog has never played with a tennis ball and you put tennis balls in the tube or dump a bucket of tennis balls on them, it's not as impressive as if they have spent the first 6 months of their life playing with tennis balls and are very familiar with their odor and get tremendous satisfaction from them. 

Just some food for thought


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## Ariel Peldunas

Britney Pelletier said:


> I personally, do look forward to the progression of these puppies as they mature. It will be interesting to hear about what trials and tribulations you run into, as we all know there are in dog training. :wink:
> 
> What really interests me the most about detector dogs is raw, genetic hunt drive. It isn't something that can be taught. I think what we might fail to realize here is that teaching puppies to locate an odor and be rewarded for it isn't any more scientific than teaching a puppy how to sit for food, or how to track for food. You guys are doing something that not many people have seen before, which I think is partially contributing to the mass hysteria over it.
> 
> I would also be interested in hearing your thoughts on the meaning behind the distractor odors and the process of extincting them as it pertains to the puppy. Is your marijuana wrapped in a plastic bag or just sitting in a container? If not in a plastic bag, what significance does it have to the puppy that would lead them to be distracted by it? I think the same can be said for a lot of things. If you put kongs in tubes and the puppy/dog has never once played with a kong before, that rubber odor really isn't going to have any significance to them. Is the food you use as distractors, both in the tube and in your hand, something the puppies have access to on a regular basis and have eaten many times before? My point being, it might be impressive that there's a can of cat food in a tube as a distractor odor, but with puppies not being nearly as persistent as young adults and being relatively easy to coerce into performing the behavior that most quickly generates a reward, if they've never had cat food before, it really isn't that much of a distraction to them. Later on in life after they've counter-surfed a few times and stolen your hamburger or steak and are a little more mentally mature and headstrong, it would be interesting to see a steak or hamburger in the tubes as a distractor.
> 
> The same would apply to toys. If the puppy/dog has never played with a tennis ball and you put tennis balls in the tube or dump a bucket of tennis balls on them, it's not as impressive as if they have spent the first 6 months of their life playing with tennis balls and are very familiar with their odor and get tremendous satisfaction from them.
> 
> Just some food for thought


When dogs false indicate on interesting odors/anomalies is it because they've become familiar with those odors and created favorable associations with them or just because something smells interesting and out of place?

Do dogs really need to have enjoyed a food before in order to have interest in it? My dogs will search their butts off to find a pile of cat poop to devour in the yard and I can assure you I've never fed it to them. And why wait until the dogs are persistent and more determined to commit to the wrong odor to wait to proof them off of it? I think using the puppies natural inclination to explore other options when their first option is not available is just training smarter, not harder.

Regarding the plastic bags, tennis balls and the other distractor odors besides the food and "amomaly" odors ...yes, the odor is packaged in plastic bags and handled with gloves. These puppies have played with tennis balls as we've introduced them to tennis balls attached to buggy whips to build drive for them ...although these pups really just have a natural inclination to attach themselves to anything that seems exciting. We should probably figure out a way to stick a muck boot in the odor tubes because they really seem to be drawn to those ...but I think different variations of rubber odor will suffice.

Regarding raw/genetic hunt drive ...I don't believe you can train a dog to use his nose if he has no natural inclination to do so. But if the dog has a strong desire for something (food, toy, what have you) and understands very basically that his nose can be used to find it, I absolutely believe you can build upon those behaviors and encourage the dog to search more effectively. Maybe it's not considered training because we're not luring or shaping behaviors, but we can create situations that allow the dog to be rewarded for using his nose in a manner that we'd consider effective.

Morgan, the mal puppy, has more genetic hunt drive than I've seen in most adult dogs. His nose is always turned on and he's always looking for something. We're just teaching him there's something work looking for. Bailey, the dutchie, is no slacker either. But whether these pups were inclined to use their noses from birth or not, I think it's naive to believe the adult dogs that most vendors import haven't been prepared for selection testing. I've not been in this business as long as some, but I've traveled a lot and had the opportunity to see many detection dogs from many different sources. Being completely objective, I've seen more dogs with what appears to be strong, genetic hunt drive here at Mike's than I've seen at all the other places combined. So, considering what we're starting with here and what I've seen Mike can produce (both through breeding and interaction with the dogs and puppies), I think it will be interesting to see what doing some early scent work with puppies genetically inclined to have strong hunt drive will produce.

These are just my thoughts on the subject ...with input and approval from Mike who is too lazy to type right now. Like I said, we could find out putting this much time and effort into puppies isn't worth it if the only interest is to sell them once they are of age. But we really don't base much of the business on selling trained dogs anyway and the greatest value in this is what we're learning. It's just really cool to watch the lights go on. I think Mike may have already said that. It just reminds me why I started training dogs in the first place. Once the passion and creativity is gone, it just becomes another job.


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## Nicole Stark

Ariel Peldunas said:


> Once the passion and creativity is gone, it just becomes another job.


Amen.


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## Britney Pelletier

Ariel Peldunas said:


> It just reminds me why I started training dogs in the first place. Once the passion and creativity is gone, it just becomes another job.


I can certainly agree with, and appreciate that... which is also why training my dogs is and always will be just my hobby, not my job. ;-)


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## Terrasita Cuffie

Britney Pelletier said:


> I personally, do look forward to the progression of these puppies as they mature. It will be interesting to hear about what trials and tribulations you run into, as we all know there are in dog training. :wink:
> 
> What really interests me the most about detector dogs is raw, genetic hunt drive. It isn't something that can be taught. I think what we might fail to realize here is that teaching puppies to locate an odor and be rewarded for it isn't any more scientific than teaching a puppy how to sit for food, or how to track for food. You guys are doing something that not many people have seen before, which I think is partially contributing to the mass hysteria over it.
> 
> *I don't think there is any mass hysteria over it at all. I know of many people that start puppies tracking. Imprinting and laying the foundation for scent work is nothing new. I think the tubes and technique was a new approach that many found interesting. This is the foundation for scent detection and training to locate something specific. As for hunt drive, I'm sure that's individually tested and selected for by other means. *
> 
> I would also be interested in hearing your thoughts on the meaning behind the distractor odors and the process of extincting them as it pertains to the puppy. Is your marijuana wrapped in a plastic bag or just sitting in a container? If not in a plastic bag, what significance does it have to the puppy that would lead them to be distracted by it? I think the same can be said for a lot of things. If you put kongs in tubes and the puppy/dog has never once played with a kong before, that rubber odor really isn't going to have any significance to them. Is the food you use as distractors, both in the tube and in your hand, something the puppies have Waccess to on a regular basis and have eaten many times before? My point being, it might be impressive that there's a can of cat food in a tube as a distractor odor, but with puppies not being nearly as persistent as young adults and being relatively easy to coerce into performing the behavior that most quickly generates a reward, if they've never had cat food before, it really isn't that much of a distraction to them. Later on in life after they've counter-surfed a few times and stolen your hamburger or steak and are a little more mentally mature and headstrong, it would be interesting to see a steak or hamburger in the tubes as a distractor.
> 
> *Watching my puppies around the house, I don't think they have to have prior experience with something to be distracted by or interested in it. You don't have to build an obsession for it or familiarity with it for it to be a distraction or for the puppy to want to check it out. Coerce???? *
> *Counter surf? Part of what I see here is that they are establishing a job and reward from the handler. You're working with the puppy to work with the handler and that the handler can be the source of satisfaction. When is that a bad thing for a young puppy to learn to work for his handler and within a training system? Foundation laying isn't ever considered bullet proof. Proofing and increasing the criteria comes later.*
> 
> The same would apply to toys. If the puppy/dog has never played with a tennis ball and you put tennis balls in the tube or dump a bucket of tennis balls on them, it's not as impressive as if they have spent the first 6 months of their life playing with tennis balls and are very familiar with their odor and get tremendous satisfaction from them.
> 
> *Somehow I missed that this was about what is impressive in a puppy. If you had a puppy that was slated for detection I don't see why you wouldn't start them young with imprinting and then increasing the criteria and proofing as they matured. I think its a raise one to maturity and see how he develops. Even if you say you can get the same results if the dog was never introduced to the process as a puppy, this is a good activity for the puppy to engage his brain and learn.*
> 
> Just some food for thought


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## hillel schwartzman

Hey My Friends ...Mike , Gerban, Ariel and Pat.

What you guys are doing is great and sharing usefull Information..Sharing Information is learning and bettering training methods. Let those who resist let their learning fall behind.

Hey Ariel at the Bart Bellon seminar he mentioned rubbing odor on the mothers belly as pups are nursing, Pat was there as well...Lets try an experiment and see if it works...

GREAT JOB GUYS !!~\\/\\/\\/\\/\\/\\/\\/


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## Bob Scott

Hey Ariel at the Bart Bellon seminar he mentioned rubbing odor on the mothers belly as pups are nursing, Pat was there as well...Lets try an experiment and see if it works...

GREAT JOB GUYS !!~\\/\\/\\/\\/\\/\\/\\/[/QUOTE]



I know a woman in Missouri that has done exactly that. She claimed it works.


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## Harry Keely

hillel schwartzman said:


> Hey My Friends ...Mike , Gerban, Ariel and Pat.
> 
> What you guys are doing is great and sharing usefull Information..Sharing Information is learning and bettering training methods. Let those who resist let their learning fall behind.
> 
> Hey Ariel at the Bart Bellon seminar he mentioned rubbing odor on the mothers belly as pups are nursing, Pat was there as well...Lets try an experiment and see if it works...
> 
> GREAT JOB GUYS !!~\\/\\/\\/\\/\\/\\/\\/


Hmmmmmmmmm sounds intersting Hill, thanks for sharing, going to have to share that idea with a few select folks that have breedings coming up. It sounds like it makes sense, I am always up to trying new legit things.


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## Konnie Hein

Bob Scott said:


> I know a woman in Missouri that has done exactly that. She claimed it works.


If it works, then you'd have to assume that all the pups are going to be doing the same detection work (hunting for the same target odor) as adults.


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## Britney Pelletier

Konnie Hein said:


> If it works, then you'd have to assume that all the pups are going to be doing the same detection work (hunting for the same target odor) as adults.


Exactly. Can't be imprinting day old pups on narcotics and then train them on explosives later on in life.. unless you're willing to take responsibility for that potential liability. 

If you can dedicate entire litters to training them on strictly narcotics, that's totally cool.. but it seems like it might be more useful to imprint and teach them to hunt for a neutral odor when they're young, then put them on whatever you want them finished for later in life.


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## Harry Keely

Konnie Hein said:


> If it works, then you'd have to assume that all the pups are going to be doing the same detection work (hunting for the same target odor) as adults.





Britney Pelletier said:


> Exactly. Can't be imprinting day old pups on narcotics and then train them on explosives later on in life.. unless you're willing to take responsibility for that potential liability.
> 
> If you can dedicate entire litters to training them on strictly narcotics, that's totally cool.. but it seems like it might be more useful to imprint and teach them to hunt for a neutral odor when they're young, then put them on whatever you want them finished for later in life.


 Legit good points ladies:grin:, I guess folks that do this need to obviously stick to it, which I believe some have a point for it if thats all they do is one or the other disciplines, then if you had multiple litters that would be cool too to try different disciplines on one litter and another on another litter, although if anybody does do it, it would be interesting to hear about to say the least ya know.


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## Bob Scott

I would also be concerned with any contamination/absorption/ingestion on the nursing bitch and pups if drugs were involved.


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## hillel schwartzman

Could it be possible to interchange odor - scent on the mother during nursing ?
Could be possible that new methods should be tried ?
No not every puppy in every litter will work no matter what method we use. 
But it is important to imprint behaviors young. 
And what liability do we face ?????
:?::?::?:[-o<


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## Britney Pelletier

The liability issue was referencing cross training a dog on anything but narcotics as an adult if that's what it was imprinted on as a pup, Hill.. my point being if you have the resources (lots of puppies) to dedicate to one odor or the other and stick with it, that's great! However, a pup can not and should not be imprinted on narcotics and then trained to be an explosives detection dog later. I never said that is what is going on here, but that's the liability I was referring to. 

It seems others understood just fine.


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## Kathy Barker

Thanks for the videos and detail of the training Mike and Ariel. Looks great. Mike, I should be getting some updated video for you of Primo's progress. Much advancement since the last video I sent you.


Again, great job!


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## hillel schwartzman

Personaly Ariel...I think it's time to test witts again...Can we say road trip again..Only Stipulation is I get to Play Dave this time..LOL....

*
completely O/T link deleted*


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## Britney Pelletier

Sounds so interesting... what exactly is the test, Hill?







*
Zero to do with this thread*  I'm sure someone will PM you.


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## Ariel Peldunas

*- deleted quote -* 


Thanks for your faith in me, Hill, but I have no idea what you're talking about! Not looking for any kind of a challenge here ...just having fun with our puppies and looking to share some video with people who have an interest in checking it out.


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## Connie Sutherland

Nice thread. 

A good thread to keep free of the one that somehow drags itself into all kinds of related and unrelated topics.


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## hillel schwartzman

Ok Connie

Proof is in the puddin...Keep up the videos Ariel..I really think you guys are up to something good here...Imprinting condition response..
Me likey,,,,=D>=D>=D>


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## Connie Sutherland

hillel schwartzman said:


> ... Keep up the videos Ariel ...... Me likey ....



:lol:

Me likey too.


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## Thomas Barriano

I really like and appreciate the videos and explanations. 
Of course I think Ariel would be a better "model" then Mike
but she might be too distracting for some of you younger guys?


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## Edward Egan

Thomas Barriano said:


> I really like and appreciate the videos and explanations.
> Of course I think Ariel would be a better "model" then Mike
> but she might be too distracting for some of you younger guys?


Gee wiz Thomas, maybe you should check for a pulse! :grin:


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