# DMC LIKE TEST FOR GSDs



## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

I just saw a couple of DMC korung videos and the tests looked very impressive. From what i saw its only for malinois, do you think this test could be useful for the GSD breed?


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## Tiago Fontes (Apr 17, 2011)

Can you post a link for the videos?


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Oluwatobi Odunuga said:


> I just saw a couple of DMC korung videos and the tests looked very impressive. From what i saw its only for malinois, do you think this test could be useful for the GSD breed?


No. Its a Malinois test for German Malinois and designed to address the problems that those dogs have and promote the things that the DMC finds important. GSDs should act like GSDs not Malinois.

Maybe what the GSD needs is no or less testing. Look where all their breed testing brought them to and look where the lack of breed testing brought the Malinois.


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

I don't see anything in the test that is not desirable for the GSD breed-- intense prey drive, sound nerves etc. The decoy work in the korung looks a bit more tougher than regular IPO stuff and the environmental distraction seems like a good idea.
Malinois have always had tests, mainly KNPV and ringsport, it is the reduction in requirements for mostly IPO dogs that i think is a bigger problem.


as for video, this is one that shows some of the stuff they do.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZrhODIfcv4


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

It will never happen, as a great % of the current GSD genepool wouldnt have a hope in hell of passing. That would reduce the ease at which show people can breed their rubbish and it would make the working people have to look at breeding dogs which can work outside of routine involved in the sport of choice for GSD's - IPO.
I like the fact that the DMC accept that IPO alone is no test of character and that the DMC Korung together with IPO should give a good idea of the dogs character. 
From what I understand though the DMC has a requirement of studs dogs having to have passed the Korung before they will issue papers on the pups of stud dogs. This has the side problem of top pedigreed KNPV dogs or FR dogs not been able to be bred to DMC females.

I really enjoy watching the DMC Korung, far more than I do the FMBB worlds. 

I would have liked to have seen RSV 2000 do something like this, but alas its just SV mark 2.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Christopher Jones said:


> It will never happen, as a great % of the current GSD genepool wouldnt have a hope in hell of passing. That would reduce the ease at which show people can breed their rubbish and it would make the working people have to look at breeding dogs which can work outside of routine involved in the sport of choice for GSD's - IPO.


They key word in your post is choice. And the GSD people have chosen their path. And they seem to like it. If they didn't they would change what they are doing. Even when there was a break from the SV, the RSV still came up with a similar breed test to the SV. These are not stupid or ignorant people they just like what they have and what they are doing. What's wrong with that?



> I don't see anything in the test that is not desirable for the GSD breed-- intense prey drive, sound nerves etc. The decoy work in the korung looks a bit more tougher than regular IPO stuff and the environmental distraction seems like a good idea.


I would suggest that you look at how the DMC breed test is evaluated and where the emphasis is placed. If you are not familiar with how the test is evaluated, and you are only looking at some videos online, you will never be able to understand why this might not be good for the GSD. 



> Malinois have always had tests, mainly KNPV and ringsport, it is the reduction in requirements for mostly IPO dogs that i think is a bigger problem.


If the sport has become so easy we would see more perfect scores....*like they do in KNPV*. :-k


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## Frank David (Jul 4, 2008)

DMC, both males and females have to pass the Korung before they can breed. Males outside of Germany (dmc) can be listed as approved Studs without taking the test if they apply, pretty sure the requirements are, registered, working title, hips and elbows. This usually happens when someone in the DMC wants to use a dog outside of there registry.

Here's a link to the approved dogs currenty listed outside Germany, http://www.mechelaar.de/zucht/auslaendische-rueden/


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Christopher Jones said:


> From what I understand though the DMC has a requirement of studs dogs having to have passed the Korung before they will issue papers on the pups of stud dogs. This has the side problem of top pedigreed KNPV dogs or FR dogs not been able to be bred to DMC females.


Nope that's not the case. DMC bitches are bred to non breed tested males all of the time.


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## Megan Bays (Oct 10, 2008)

Christopher Smith said:


> If you are not familiar with how the test is evaluated, and you are only looking at some videos online, you will never be able to understand why this might not be good for the GSD.


Chris could you explain a little more to those of us not familiar with the DMC? I think it's a really neat concept, and would like to know more about it other than what you see on video.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

I don't have a lot of time right now to post but this might get you started. The dogs are tested and from those test get a number that looks like this. 555/5/4444

Here is the worksheet to decode the numbers. http://malinut.com/ref/library/wertmessziffern/

Be aware, this is not the code sheet for the current system and things have been revamped slightly. But you can get the basic idea.


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Frank David said:


> DMC, both males and females have to pass the Korung before they can breed. Males outside of Germany (dmc) can be listed as approved Studs without taking the test if they apply, pretty sure the requirements are, registered, working title, hips and elbows. This usually happens when someone in the DMC wants to use a dog outside of there registry.
> 
> Here's a link to the approved dogs currenty listed outside Germany, http://www.mechelaar.de/zucht/auslaendische-rueden/


 Okay, so you have to get permission first and get the dog approved if he doesnt have a Korung. 
I was told by a German guy that he wanted to breed to a Dutch dog but couldnt because he didnt have a Korung. 
It doesnt look like there are too many dogs on their list, half of them are dead. And there are a couple who wouldnt have passed the Korung either.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Christopher Jones said:


> And there are a couple who wouldnt have passed the Korung either.


And why wouldn't they have passed?


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Christopher Smith said:


> They key word in your post is choice. And the GSD people have chosen their path. And they seem to like it. If they didn't they would change what they are doing. Even when there was a break from the SV, the RSV still came up with a similar breed test to the SV. These are not stupid or ignorant people they just like what they have and what they are doing. What's wrong with that?


Anyone who thinks the German SV Korung tests a dogs character the same way that the DMC one does is ignorant and stupid. 



Christopher Smith said:


> I would suggest that you look at how the DMC breed test is evaluated and where the emphasis is placed. If you are not familiar with how the test is evaluated, and you are only looking at some videos online, you will never be able to understand why this might not be good for the GSD.


I would love for you to tell me why testing a dogs environmental nerves before letting them pass the fit for breeding exam isnt a good thing for GSDs?



Christopher Smith said:


> If the sport has become so easy we would see more perfect scores....*like they do in KNPV*. :-k


 Your not saying that KNPV is easier than IPO because there are more 440pts than 300pts are you? Seriously?


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

a fantastic test/sport more used for GSD's is "champaigne" and i know i'm not spelling it right--i was trying to find some videos. if anyone is better s searching, please post!!
and i'll keep trying, lol.


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Christopher Smith said:


> And why wouldn't they have passed?


 Because they were soft and had shit nerves.


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## Paul R. Konschak (Jun 10, 2010)

Before Two years ago, the DMC Stud book was not open. My understanding is that the DMC felt like it was making the gene pool too small with these requirements and opened up the Stud book for this reason. The also watered down the test to allow more dogs to pass at this point. This is the new scoring system that Chris wrote about in his earlier post. One thing that I do not agree with is that a two year old dog now takes the same test as an 8 year old dog. i feel this leads to more dogs passing because of training. The point of the test is to see the genetics of the dog. Remember that the DMC is not the only organization in Germany that can provide VDH (FCI) papers for Malinois. I personally agree that they are some very interesting videos to watch. I hope to see one in person, some day in the future. Frank, we missed you in August.


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

got rid of the "h" and the "i" and i was in business!! 

ok, found a page, i'll link one video, but there are a number more from that page:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cpEoUe7wemE&feature=related

unfortunately, the sport has never caught on in the US. i personally think it's a fantastic test and wish i could participate (but hey--i can't even get closer than 2 hours to Sch....i can dream, right?)


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Christopher Jones said:


> I would love for you to tell me why testing a dogs environmental nerves before letting them pass the fit for breeding exam isnt a good thing for GSDs?


Stop listening to the voices in your head and read the words on the screen. Quote where I said that.


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## Megan Bays (Oct 10, 2008)

Christopher Smith said:


> I don't have a lot of time right now to post but this might get you started. The dogs are tested and from those test get a number that looks like this. 555/5/4444
> 
> Here is the worksheet to decode the numbers. http://malinut.com/ref/library/wertmessziffern/
> 
> Be aware, this is not the code sheet for the current system and things have been revamped slightly. But you can get the basic idea.


Thanks Chris!


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

ann schnerre said:


> got rid of the "h" and the "i" and i was in business!!
> 
> ok, found a page, i'll link one video, but there are a number more from that page:
> 
> ...


I'm a huge fan of Campagne, but I don't see it ever taking off in the US because of the amount of space involved. And frankly it's French Ring in nature, you need the same quality/level of decoy work for Campagne as you do for FR, which is also an issue here.


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

Christopher Jones said:


> It will never happen, as a great % of the current GSD genepool wouldnt have a hope in hell of passing. That would reduce the ease at which show people can breed their rubbish and it would make the working people have to look at breeding dogs which can work outside of routine involved in the sport of choice for GSD's - IPO.
> I like the fact that the DMC accept that IPO alone is no test of character and that the DMC Korung together with IPO should give a good idea of the dogs character.
> From what I understand though the DMC has a requirement of studs dogs having to have passed the Korung before they will issue papers on the pups of stud dogs. This has the side problem of top pedigreed KNPV dogs or FR dogs not been able to be bred to DMC females.
> 
> ...


Hi Chris,
I respect people's opinions a lot but i have to say you are exaggerating some things. I'm an avid GSD fan and i admit there are many more rubbish GSDs than there were a couple of years ago, that is not to say that there aren't still a substantial amount of VERY good ones. I don't fancy malis and dutchies as much but i don't bad mouth them cos so far i've decoyed a couple of them and i know they are excellent working dogs.
I just thought a test like the DMC would be a good way to weed out dogs with high drive but shitty nerves preffereably with an age limit of about 2 years so that people don't breed dogs that have just been condtioned to perform these exercises. I and many GSD people know where to go when looking for a GSD that can literarily kick ass.

Would you call these weak dogs?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VvQdWV3EtQY

or this a weak dog

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swwp-WAHvb8


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Christopher Smith said:


> Stop listening to the voices in your head and read the words on the screen. Quote where I said that.


 You said "I would suggest that you look at how the DMC breed test is evaluated and where the emphasis is placed"
The emphasis of the DMC korung is placed on testing environmental nerves, compared to the GSD Korung which is not.
You said"you will never be able to understand why this might not be good for the GSD."
So the difference is the amount of importance the DMC puts on testing nerves, and you state that this "Might not be good for the GSD"
So im not hearing any voices, just reading what you, yourself, wrote.


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Oluwatobi Odunuga said:


> Hi Chris,
> I respect people's opinions a lot but i have to say you are exaggerating some things. I'm an avid GSD fan and i admit there are many more rubbish GSDs than there were a couple of years ago, that is not to say that there aren't still a substantial amount of VERY good ones. I don't fancy malis and dutchies as much but i don't bad mouth them cos so far i've decoyed a couple of them and i know they are excellent working dogs.
> I just thought a test like the DMC would be a good way to weed out dogs with high drive but shitty nerves preffereably with an age limit of about 2 years so that people don't breed dogs that have just been condtioned to perform these exercises. I and many GSD people know where to go when looking for a GSD that can literarily kick ass.
> 
> ...


Dont be stupid dude. The GSD population is 80% show dogs, 20% working dogs. The Korung is used for all show and working dogs. 99% of show GSD's would fail the DMC korung, and a decent % of working GSDs, just like malis, would also fail it. 
You need to grow up a bit and stop showing a couple of videos of decent GSD's and think that represents the GSD genepool, when the vast majority of them are piss weak show bred animals.
Now, what exactly have I exaggerated? 
And please dont talk about GSD's to me. I have owned, bred and worked more working GSD' than you have. I had them when you didnt know what "working dogs" are. :roll:


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

Christopher Jones said:


> Dont be stupid dude. The GSD population is 80% show dogs, 20% working dogs. The Korung is used for all show and working dogs. 99% of show GSD's would fail the DMC korung, and a decent % of working GSDs, just like malis, would also fail it.
> You need to grow up a bit and stop showing a couple of videos of decent GSD's and think that represents the GSD genepool, when the vast majority of them are piss weak show bred animals.
> Now, what exactly have I exaggerated?
> And please dont talk about GSD's to me. I have owned, bred and worked more working GSD' than you have. I had them when you didnt know what "working dogs" are. :roll:


Lol, not my point and btw i consider the showlines a different breed entirely, you sure are entitled to your opinions. Malis and dutchies are good working dogs, doesn't translate to GSDs being a weaker breed. Showlines aside, i know there are many strong GSDs in sport and police work, if all the GSDs you owned were weak dogs it still doesn't mean the breed doesn't have very very good specimens. 
I agree with you that the Korung together with other standard tests is beneficial to both breeds.


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Christopher Jones said:


> Dont be stupid dude. The GSD population is 80% show dogs, 20% working dogs. The Korung is used for all show and working dogs. 99% of show GSD's would fail the DMC korung, and a decent % of working GSDs, just like malis, would also fail it.
> You need to grow up a bit and stop showing a couple of videos of decent GSD's and think that represents the GSD genepool, when the vast majority of them are piss weak show bred animals.
> Now, what exactly have I exaggerated?
> And please dont talk about GSD's to me. I have owned, bred and worked more working GSD' than you have. I had them when you didnt know what "working dogs" are. :roll:


Christopher i am aware of the very nice GSD over here that you have owned or bred in the past were none of the dogs you imported capable of passing these tests or would they have gone dam close to it.

I not only ask this as im interested in the breed but some dogs i have looked at buying had your dogs close in there pedigree.


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Oluwatobi Odunuga said:


> Lol, not my point and btw i consider the showlines a different breed entirely, you sure are entitled to your opinions. Malis and dutchies are good working dogs, doesn't translate to GSDs being a weaker breed. Showlines aside, i know there are many strong GSDs in sport and police work, if all the GSDs you owned were weak dogs it still doesn't mean the breed doesn't have very very good specimens.
> I agree with you that the Korung together with other standard tests is beneficial to both breeds.


 You may consider the show dogs a different breed, but they arnt. The show people control the direction of the GSD in Europe. My original post said that the SV will never do a DMC korung as the vast majority of their dogs, incl all the show dogs, would not pass it. That is a fact, not an opinion. Do you think the SV is going wash out 90% of its dogs and alienate their members to improve working ablilities? 
And you dont have to worry about my GSD's all been weak, as they werent. Theres numbers of the them that are Police K9's, Prison dogs and Military Working Dogs over here.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

RSV 2000 describes its requirements for a dog to be able to bred in the RSV, in English.

There is a puppy, young dog assessment, a Talentsichtung, Körung 1, Körung 2 and Körung 3.

The standard for the GSD remains the same for both clubs (compulsory) but the requirements to be able to breed a dog in the RSV are not the same as those in the SV.

What you see in the videos cannot be the full Körung, Talentsichtung, etc.

I downloaded the evaulation sheets for each stage of the evaluation programme from puppy, young dog, "Talentsichtung", Körung 1-3. The detailed sheets cover many pages covered the anatomy, movement, mental characteristics, social behaviour, dominance in bitework, aggression, etc.

Helmut Raiser's analysis of the dogs tested is extremely well documented. The helpers in bitework are some of the best in Germany, i.e. Horst Toporek, Wilfried Lüneberg, etc.

Christopher, you say you bred GSDS, trained them etc. for many years. Would you care to document your breeding? Maybe with dog's names, results, etc.

Also, it would be interesting to know from which source your 80% show dogs, 20% working dogs came from.

I'm certain however that no show dog will ever pass through the RSV 2000 breeding programme.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=S6QUmalgurU

Maybe we'll get GSDs like this again one day =P~


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

brad robert said:


> Christopher i am aware of the very nice GSD over here that you have owned or bred in the past were none of the dogs you imported capable of passing these tests or would they have gone dam close to it.
> 
> I not only ask this as im interested in the breed but some dogs i have looked at buying had your dogs close in there pedigree.


There was some nice dogs Brad that would pass these types of tests, but you dont get the extremes of drive and ability, nor the consistancy of these types of dogs, with GSD's as you do with my Dutchies for instance. I expected these top GSD lines to produce stronger dogs, more consistanly than they did, be it Czech, DDR or West. But yes, the good GSD's were good dogs.
Then you have the higher risk of hip and elbow problems with GSDs.


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## brad robert (Nov 26, 2008)

Christopher Jones said:


> There was some nice dogs Brad that would pass these types of tests, but you dont get the extremes of drive and ability, nor the consistancy of these types of dogs, with GSD's as you do with my Dutchies for instance. I expected these top GSD lines to produce stronger dogs, more consistanly than they did, be it Czech, DDR or West. But yes, the good GSD's were good dogs.
> Then you have the higher risk of hip and elbow problems with GSDs.


Thanks Chris.


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## Christopher Smith (Jun 20, 2008)

Christopher Jones said:


> You said "I would suggest that you look at how the DMC breed test is evaluated and where the emphasis is placed"
> The emphasis of the DMC korung is placed on testing environmental nerves, compared to the GSD Korung which is not.
> You said"you will never be able to understand why this might not be good for the GSD."
> So the difference is the amount of importance the DMC puts on testing nerves, and you state that this "Might not be good for the GSD"
> So im not hearing any voices, just reading what you, yourself, wrote.


You are the one inserting all the nerves bullshit; not me. And it's your *opinion* that "the DMC korung is placed on testing environmental nerves", it's far from a fact.

But since you are so insistant about talking about nerves, let's do that. Should GSDs have the same nerves/reactivity as a Malinois?


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

Kadi Thingvall said:


> I'm a huge fan of Campagne, but I don't see it ever taking off in the US because of the amount of space involved. And frankly it's French Ring in nature, you need the same quality/level of decoy work for Campagne as you do for FR, which is also an issue here.


yeah, i know :-(....but it's such great all-round test, dammit. jeff o posted a great vid of a GSD that i couldn't find, but still. if you have more links kadi, would you post them so i can save them? or PM them to me?


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## Kadi Thingvall (Jan 22, 2007)

ann schnerre said:


> yeah, i know :-(....but it's such great all-round test, dammit. jeff o posted a great vid of a GSD that i couldn't find, but still. if you have more links kadi, would you post them so i can save them? or PM them to me?


Go to Google and search for

Campagne malinois videos
Campagne "berger allemand" videos

This will bring up a pretty good list of videos, including some from previous years championships. Most of the videos I have watched are ones I have on VHS or DVDs, that I don't think are online.

There was an attempt to bring Campagne to the US a number of years ago but they never really got much interest from people, not enough to make a go of it. It's to bad, from what I have seen it's the best all around test out there in terms of protection sports.


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

thanks kadi!!


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## Christopher Jones (Feb 17, 2009)

Christopher Smith said:


> You are the one inserting all the nerves bullshit; not me. And it's your *opinion* that "the DMC korung is placed on testing environmental nerves", it's far from a fact.
> 
> But since you are so insistant about talking about nerves, let's do that. Should GSDs have the same nerves/reactivity as a Malinois?


 If you watch a DMC Korung and do not see that they are looking to test the dogs environmental nerves then we should end this conversation here really.


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## Oluwatobi Odunuga (Apr 7, 2010)

Christopher Jones said:


> You may consider the show dogs a different breed, but they arnt. The show people control the direction of the GSD in Europe. My original post said that the SV will never do a DMC korung as the vast majority of their dogs, incl all the show dogs, would not pass it. That is a fact, not an opinion. Do you think the SV is going wash out 90% of its dogs and alienate their members to improve working ablilities?
> And you dont have to worry about my GSD's all been weak, as they werent. Theres numbers of the them that are Police K9's, Prison dogs and Military Working Dogs over here.


I get the feeling you are making your conclusions based on the australian gene pool or the few dogs you have owned. I hope you understand that even the BEST german shepherds still act different from malinois. Gsd and mali people aim for different kinds of dogs, the fact that a dog is not hyper active 23 hours a day IMO does not make it a lesser working dog.
Maybe you didn't read the part of my posts where i admitted that there are more shitty GSDs being bred but that doesn't mean there aren't MANY good ones. The Czech republic is producing some very nice dogs now, kennels like equidius, stribneho kamene, glisnik and couple of other kennels are producing excellent working dogs. And still try and understand that i am only talking about WORKING line GSDs. 
Its usually dog brokers that bad mouth breeds so i don't know where you are getting your 'inspiration' from but as long as there are GSDs in police and military venues whhich i believe is the ultimate working dog test, all that talk about lacking extreme drives doesn't hold water. Definitely not any where near you in terms of experience but the kennel that i occassionally train with is an all Mali/dutchie kennel so i'm not an ignoramus either.
Like i said we are all entitled to our opinions, some will choose malis, some will choose gsds ......:wink:


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