# Pup with diarrhoea



## Gary Garner (Jun 30, 2007)

I took possession of my new GSD bitch pup on 11th June...

She's was just short of 3 months old.

In the first week or two she suffered from diarrhoea... very loose - spattering.

The food is the same as she had at the breeders, as is the quantity/feeding times etc..

I put it down to change of circumstance/location... also she had worms...

I wormed her then and also two weeks later...

I starved her a day..and it was still there...

I did the rice and chicken, nice and light etc..and it was still there...

I gave her pro-kolin and she seemed to get better..

She then started to solid up ..and everything was great...

However, in the last 24 hours, she's at it again. I heard her stomach rumbling/gurlgling yesterday afternoon and her crap was loose...

I've just come home from night duty at 4am, and there's 4 large puddles of diarrheoa in the yard...so she's at it again....

I worry about her health, as she's quite a lithe slim animal..and puts weight on, but slowly. She's very active when she's active, but sleeps as she should in between. She's drinking enough, her eyes and gums seem ok. She has a great appetite and loves her food...

I'm also sick of mopping stinking puddles of crap up....:-({|= 

Any advice, thoughts and opinions...


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## Amber Scott Dyer (Oct 30, 2006)

has your veterinarian done a fecal test? even if they have, and it was negative, it might be worth another try. some things, like coccidia, don't always show up on every test.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Details needed:

1. What is the food (exactly), and daily quantity?

2. Have you had a fecal check after the worming?

3. Is she drinking water OK?

4. For how long was her stool normal?


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

You can also add a few spoonfuls of cooked sweet potato or canned pumpkin (just plain canned, not with any spices for pie). Most dogs love the taste and it's got those nice antioxidants in it too. Will usually firm up poop within 12-24 hours (and you can tell cause it will be slightly orange). My pup had diarrhea for a few days, so we got an antibiotic and an antidiarrheal based on the fecal. Not sure what the brand name of the products will be over yonder, but if you can find children's electrolyte solution (Pedialyte) and dilute it in her regular water, it may help keep her hydrated. The last thing you want is to get dehydrated as they can succumb very quickly.


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## Ian Forbes (Oct 13, 2006)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Not sure what the brand name of the products will be over yonder, but if you can find children's electrolyte solution (Pedialyte) and dilute it in her regular water, it may help keep her hydrated. The last thing you want is to get dehydrated as they can succumb very quickly.



You can get Dioralyte at most chemists here in the UK - we used this (along with antibiotics prescribed by the vet) with my pup when she was suffering from gastroenteritis.


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

I feel for ya man. I have been dealing with this for over a week with all 4 of my dogs, plus now I am sick too. I had green diarhea all over the kennels for a week, its finally clearing up now. My dogs have been on anti-vomit meds, they are on antibiotics and they are on Flagyl for the stools. My pup Tiko looks very skinny but his stools seem to be the first ones to be solid out of all 4 so I am probably gonna add kibble to his boiled chicken today.

Don't have any answers for you, but you have my sympathies


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## Gary Garner (Jun 30, 2007)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Details needed:
> 
> 1. What is the food (exactly), and daily quantity?


FROMM large breed puppy gold.
http://www.frommfamily.com/products-g-d-largepuppy.php

1 and half coffee cups (soaked), 4 times per day.



Connie Sutherland said:


> 2. Have you had a fecal check after the worming?


No.



Connie Sutherland said:


> 3. Is she drinking water OK?


yes fine. As and when expected. Normal quantities consumed.



Connie Sutherland said:


> 4. For how long was her stool normal?


Perhaps 7-8 days


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## Ian Forbes (Oct 13, 2006)

Gary Garner said:


> FROMM large breed puppy gold.
> http://www.frommfamily.com/products-g-d-largepuppy.php
> 
> 1 and half coffee cups (soaked), 4 times per day.


Gary,

Is that a normal tea mug size or is it something smaller? 6 cups sounds like an awful lot of food to me.

When my rotty was a pup she was always skinny, but if I upped the food to try and get weight on her, there would always be diaorrhea (she turned out fine in the end, just a skinny pup).


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## Gary Garner (Jun 30, 2007)

Ian Forbes said:


> Gary,
> 
> Is that a normal tea mug size or is it something smaller? 6 cups sounds like an awful lot of food to me.
> 
> When my rotty was a pup she was always skinny, but if I upped the food to try and get weight on her, there would always be diaorrhea (she turned out fine in the end, just a skinny pup).


You might be right Ian.

I might just have to lessen the amounts.

She is quite a skinny pup, but is quite long legged and long in body, just no real meat on her.

Someone recently asked if she was a lurcher #-o !! I was mortified !

I'm all too aware that I dont want to be feeding her too much and that growing too quickly is also to be avoided. However, as she's an apetite and she's getting enough exercise, I thought the food intake was ok.

You might be right, I might just have to cut it back a bit..


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## Ian Forbes (Oct 13, 2006)

Gary Garner said:


> You might be right Ian.
> 
> I might just have to lessen the amounts.
> 
> ...


Gary,

Just to sympathise with you:

My rotty pup was always skinny, long in leg/body and very active. Some people thought she was a Dobe and others thought her a x breed (she has a tail!). She always had a great appetite (still does), but I learned that her being hungry did not = being underfed. She just likes food.

This was her at 5 months:



You pup looks great to me (not that I'm a GSD expert) and Fromm is one of the better foods you can get hold of over here, so hopefully cutting back the quantities will firm up her stools.


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## Lynn Cheffins (Jul 11, 2006)

You might also want to try soaking the kibble for less time and maybe feeding not so frequently - soaking can push the food thru their system a little too fast resulting in soft stools. A fecal at the vets would be a good idea, too.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Well, not sure what quantity that really is, but on the face of it it sounds like a lot. The real measure is whether she is the right weight and shape on the amount you're giving.

And someone else pointed out that overfeeding is a frequent diarrhea triggger; true, true, true...... 

But I would collect and drop off a fecal with the info about the severe diarrhea. I'd check her for hydration (gum color, skin elasticity.... but I wouldn't want to even get that far; I'd just make darned sure she was taking in more water at the front end than was going out the back until this is resolved). I'd go back to the soothing cooked-white-chicken and overcooked watery white rice diet (small amounts) after a day of fasting. I'd definitely add the canned (or cooked) plain pumpkin, but I hear all the time from other folks in the UK that they can't get that. If that fecal was negative, I'd ask that the other test (fecal float, plus giardia elisa if that's what the vets do there for giardia diagnosis) be done if the diarrhea had not subsided.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Connie Sutherland said:


> I'd go back to the soothing cooked-white-chicken and overcooked watery white rice diet (small amounts) after a day of fasting. I'd definitely add the canned (or cooked) plain pumpkin, but I hear all the time from other folks in the UK that they can't get that.


I was just thinking about the availability of canned pumpkin when I wrote that on the previous page. I was out of canned pumpkin for Fawkes a few days ago and cooked sweet potato works about the same. 

Gary, assuming you can get sweet potatoes, you can prick them with a fork about 5 times and put them in the microwave for 5-7 minutes (or slightly longer if it's a big one). Cut it open and let it cool to room temperature or slightly warm before serving a few spoonfuls to the pup.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Yes, I have used them too.

One caveat is that they have 5 or 6 times the sugar content of pumpkin.

Sugar makes some kinds of diarrhea worse.

Still, I have used it and thought it worked pretty well. I think maybe that type of fiber (and this is a total guess) works well enough to bulk up stools to help offset the sugar.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

On the upside, you wouldn't want blood glucose levels to drop with a possibly dehydrated pup either. I usually just give a few spoonfuls. Probably not enough to be a big deal either way.

And by the way...wrapping a sweet potato in aluminum foil, roasting in coals for ~45 minutes, and then adding butter and brown sugar... =P~ =P~


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> And by the way...wrapping a sweet potato in aluminum foil, roasting in coals for ~45 minutes, and then adding butter and brown sugar... =P~ =P~


Is that part of the prescription? 'Cause I don't usually have any hot coals. :sad: 





JK. :lol:


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## Gary Garner (Jun 30, 2007)

Well today was a different story...

She's had two motions (to my knowledg)...she might have eaten a 3rd...

Anyway, both motions were solid and as they should be... 

So perhaps yesterday was an off day..not sure...

The FROMM large breed puppy gold that she's on seems ok...but ive been advised to seriously think about trying her with Eukanuba...

Any thoughts / experience with Eukanuba.. ?


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Gary Garner said:


> Well today was a different story...
> 
> She's had two motions (to my knowledg)...she might have eaten a 3rd...
> 
> ...



Eukanuba large breed puppy:
Chicken, Corn Meal, Ground Whole Grain Sorghum, Chicken By-Product Meal, Brewers Rice, Natural Chicken Flavor, Dried Beet Pulp (sugar removed), etc.

Corn meal = junk
Sorghum = junk
By-Products = junk 
Brewers Rice, Natural Chicken Flavor, Dried Beet Pulp = junk, junk, junk

And these are the top (most plentiful) ingredents.

I will PM you a list of better kibbles if you like. :>)


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

If there is another bout of the runs, I'd drop off a fecal. Several parasitic infestations cause on-again, off-again diarrhea.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Gary Garner said:


> Well today was a different story...
> 
> She's had two motions (to my knowledg)...she might have eaten a 3rd...
> 
> Anyway, both motions were solid and as they should be...



EXCELLENT news, BTW! :>)


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

If I had to choose between Fromms and Eukanuba, I'd definitely toss the Eukanuba out in the trash can, because that's where it belongs. I say stick with the Fromms, but I'd recommend that you stop soaking it. Bloat studies have shown that soaking a food that contains citric acid before it is fed to the dog *might* be something that increases the risk of bloat. I don't know how true that statement is, but I wouldn't want to take that chance. I also agree that you might be feeding too much. I feed Canidae and the most food my dogs have ever gotten, even as puppies going through growth spurts, has been 4 cups a day.


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

Gary I think that Orijen is available from Germany with free shipping to the UK. Ian Forbes I believe gave me the link, out of all the kibbles I am aware of available in the UK, that would probably be my choice hands down. Eukanuba is a waste of the money they spent printing the labels.


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## Gary Garner (Jun 30, 2007)

thanks for info so far..

there are many opinions on the food subject..I know...

I'm really jittery with bloat..as my last dog died from it...:-( 

So i'm really concerned about the soaking business.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Gary Garner said:


> thanks for info so far..
> 
> there are many opinions on the food subject..I know...
> 
> ...


If you are not ready or able to do fresh raw, is canned a possibility?


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## Ian Forbes (Oct 13, 2006)

Gary,

Good news that the pup has firmed up. On the subject of food the Fromm is way better than Eukanuba, but here are some other recommendations:

-Orijen. This is a really good grain free food (they now do a large breed puppy version). You can order it online here (http://www.zooplus.co.uk/shop/dogs/dry_dog_food/orijen). That shop used to sell Timberwolforganics as well, which was good. The food seems expensive but the amount you need to feed is very small.
- Eagle Pack Holistic (from http://www.postalpetsproducts.co.uk/shop/). A bit expensive and they also do the Fromm.
-Arden Grange and James Wellbeloved are probably the best foods that are on general sale in the shops.
-Natures Variety Raw Instinct and Canidae (from http://www.cats-country.de/). Both very good foods.
-CSJ Command Perfomance (from http://www.csjk9.com/command/index.html_)

All those foods are dry.

Good 'wet' foods include Naturediet (widely available), Nature's Menu (frozen food from http://www.prizechoice.co.uk/) and Duck (frozen food from http://www.k9dogfood.co.uk/).


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

I have 50lbs of DUCK sitting in my freezer going to waste, I didnt care for the amount of grain it contains, it doesnt even look like meat but rather like some kind of bread with the texture and all...


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## Ian Forbes (Oct 13, 2006)

Mike Schoonbrood said:


> I have 50lbs of DUCK sitting in my freezer going to waste, I didnt care for the amount of grain it contains, it doesnt even look like meat but rather like some kind of bread with the texture and all...


Interesting information, Mike. One thing I could never find out about Duck is the actual quantiites of the ingredients. I knew there were grains in it, but it seems there are more grains than I thought....


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## Mike Schoonbrood (Mar 27, 2006)

Yeah DUCK doesn't seem very big on publishing their exact list of ingredients which bothers me. I assumed that a frozen raw diet would be only-raw, like the natures variety frozen patties available in the US, so I bought a whole bunch of the stuff when I moved to Belgium. Then I felt the texture of the stuff and it was kinda disturbing how bread-like it was, it doesn't even smell like meat which was a big red flag for me. My GSD wouldn't even eat it for the first few days till he was hungry enough.


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

i'm not sure why anyone would even soak kibble in the first place (unless you're weaning very young pups). it's bad for their teeth, IMO, and it's an unnecessary, PITA, step. just MO


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## Gary Garner (Jun 30, 2007)

I fed my last dog on Arden Grange and it suited him well...

I still have 3 x bags of the stuff (15kg) that I was thinking of selling..but I might keep.. don't know yet..

Xena is healthy, but is underweight.. I'm going to have to deal with it and do it soon...

I've started her on chicken wings today.. I was panicking like hell when I gave her them.. She eat them like a bleeding crocodile...chomp chomp, head back..swallow ..gone...:-s

I was visualizing me doing the Heimlich Maneuver minutes later...:-& 

We'll have to see what comes out the other end..and if feeding her chicken daily is going to put the required weight on at the required speed.


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## Lacey Vessell (Nov 18, 2006)

By the way your describing her eating them (wings)....I would go with a larger chicken part...... like a leg quarter, so that she is required to chew a bit more.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

ann freier said:


> i'm not sure why anyone would even soak kibble in the first place (unless you're weaning very young pups). it's bad for their teeth, IMO, and it's an unnecessary, PITA, step. just MO



Many sources say to soak kibble to help alleviate some of what many perceive as the connection between kibble and bloat (the kibble expanding in the gut).

I imagine this was Gary's goal, too, since he had a dog who succumbed to GDV.

Google BLOAT, KIBBLE.


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## Lynn Cheffins (Jul 11, 2006)

> Xena is healthy, but is underweight.. I'm going to have to deal with it and do it soon...


are you sure she is underweight? If you are used to looking at heavier built large males a fine boned,lean female puppy can be a little disconcertingly ratty looking especially at the age she is at. I wouldn't worry too much about trying to pack on the weight if her activity/vitality levels are good and the rest of her health is good. I would work at the bowel/food tolerance issues as the first priority rather than packing on weight fast.


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## Gary Garner (Jun 30, 2007)

You're probably right Lynn

I think the fact I've always had males also taints my views...

Having said that, several good dog trainers that I know have also mentioned she's a little underweight...

I think she'll perhaps just suddenly fill out...


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## Gary Garner (Jun 30, 2007)

You're probably right Lynn

I think the fact I've always had males also taints my views...

Having said that, several good dog trainers that I know have also mentioned she's a little underweight...

I think she'll perhaps just suddenly fill out...


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Many sources say to soak kibble to help alleviate some of what many perceive as the connection between kibble and bloat (the kibble expanding in the gut).
> 
> I imagine this was Gary's goal, too, since he had a dog who succumbed to GDV.
> 
> Google BLOAT, KIBBLE.


having never had experience w/bloat other than in cattle (and that's usually fairly easy to alleviate), and having fed my dogs kibble for more years than i care to admit to, and having seen a lot of dogs/cats with dental problems due to feeding "wet" food, i have to stand by my statement. for the moment at any rate.

and, admittedly BEFORE doing the google search, his max was an "older" dog when he passed: had he fed him dry kibble his entire life and then he suddenly bloated? i'll go look at some stuff b/f i lose my "+1"; i'm just basing my opinion on my experience in real life, nothing else.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Some sources maintain that kibble can be evaluated for bloat-prone "expandability."

They say to "use a dry food that does not expand when wet; premium foods are much less likely to expand," and to "test your food, drop some kibble in a cup of water."

This is just something I have read here and there -- not something I have first-hand knowledge of.

I can say that kibble is not particularly effective at keeping dental scale to a minimum; kibble shatters. OTOH, canned food often does contain ingredients that cling to back teeth.

So if I fed commercial food, wet or dry, I'd be pretty regular with the dog's home and professional cleaning.  

http://www.dentalvet.com/patients/procare/12steps.htm


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## Gary Garner (Jun 30, 2007)

Just had a  conversation with the vet surgery...

I phoned to say I would be calling in next week to pick up some worming tablets, for my pup's next worm session...

They enquired about her and I mentioned the chicken wing/Barf diet that I was trying...

I might have well admitted to being a paedophile priest  The woman on the desk gave out a little scream...then handed the phone to a colleague because she was too shocked to speak.. :-& 

Their 'nutrition' expert then got on the phone...and lectured me [-X about the bone dangers of the chicken...uncooked nevertheless..and the blockage potential...and the decease risk..etc...

It was a memorable conversation...perhaps a false nose and mustache set is required for when I next call in there... :-(


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

Is this the same 'nutrition expert' that suggested you put her on Eukanuba? :-&


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## Gary Garner (Jun 30, 2007)

Kristen Cabe said:


> Is this the same 'nutrition expert' that suggested you put her on Eukanuba? :-&


No. The Eukanuba suggestion was from a Schutzhund competitor... A good one at that.. I think the dried dog food argument depends on the individual dog..

I've known some superb working / healthy police K9s that were on Eukanuba for their entire life..

For the last 5 years, I've fed Arden Grange to my dog.

This pup is now on a mixture of FROMM puppy gold complete and BARF...

But the BARF, especially the chicken wings...is really playing some chords with my conscience...:-&


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

I find it the vets and other folks find the term raw diet over BARF more palatable. *rim shot* I got a lecture from my not usual vet a few months before the whole American food recall fiasco about how it can cause salmonella, etc, etc. It was very hard not saying something like "I'm almost done with grad school and I am about to start vet school...I know how to wash my hands, thanks." :roll: Of course, once the whole recall thing set in, I brought in my pup for a check up/fecal (he had watery diarrhea for a couple days), the other vet didn't bat an eye when I told her the pup was on a mix of Innova Evo and Solid Gold canned and raw. I literally cannot wait for the nutrition class in vet school. I'm going to be such a PITA. :twisted: So keep at it, Gary. At least in the States, more are slowly becoming more open to a raw or home cooked diet.


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## Gary Garner (Jun 30, 2007)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> So keep at it, Gary. At least in the States, more are slowly becoming more open to a raw or home cooked diet.


Hi maren..

Thanks for your post... I always enjoy your viewpoint...

To be honest...I'm shitting myself feeding chicken wings to Xena..

When she crunches them..and after a couple of glugs...swallows them... All I can envisage is the fact she's not yet 4 months old..and bones being stuck in her throat, gut, anus etc etc....:-& 

I'm sure i'm worrying for nothing. Am I ?


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

As long as she IS crunching them, and not just swallowing them whole, she should be just fine.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Many vets have bachelors (or the equivalent) degrees in biology or animal science. They just forget to act like biologists. What do/did wolves, coyotes, foxes, feral dogs, even dogs 60-70 years ago before kibble eat? Organ meat, muscle meat, hide and skin, etc. I'll laugh at any vet who tells me that a dog, cat, ferret, etc can evolve a completely new digestive tract in the short time we've kept them on commercial kibble. It's not like a bone getting stuck or getting a bowel obstructed will never happen as there are no guarantees in life. But it's really good to get the pups started on raw so they learn to chew (and I'm sure cold meat feels good on teething gums). My old husky/Rottweiler cross still is a gulper, so he doesn't typically get as much bones as the others. 

Chicken wings may not be the best thing as they are quite bony and you don't want to overdo the calcium at this age. Chicken quarters are usually cheaper and more meaty. When Fawkes was like 9 weeks old, I was out of dog food meat that I thought he could handle and tried him on a drumstick and sure enough, he ate the majority of it (left a little bit of the main long bone). You can branch out into all sorts of different things. I get a lot of my dog food at the university's meat lab locally produced and at decent prices (especially organ meat).


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## Gary Garner (Jun 30, 2007)

Kristen Cabe said:


> As long as she IS crunching them, and not just swallowing them whole, she should be just fine.


Mmmmmm :neutral: She's a bit of a gulper..and of the 6 wings i've fed her over the last couple of days...I think 2 have been swallowed without much chewing...

Going of the theory (not agreed but suppose)..that complete food is best....

Is there any real need for BARF in her diet, if the complete food ie: Fromm puppy gold is working.. ?

There are so many variables with pups, aren't there? I can see why i've stuck away from ones so young in the past.... =;

Having said that...i'm enjoying training her from a blank canvas...I must admit..


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Gary Garner said:


> But the BARF, especially the chicken wings...is really playing some chords with my conscience...:-&


Dogs are scavengers. Dogs can survive on pretty much anything.

MHO is that dogs do not thrive on crap, though.

What I would do is read a couple of books written by researchers who are also vets and decide based on your reading.

Trainers AND VETS are not generally canine nutritionists. The 2 credits vets get on nutrition (funded by Hills) is not something I choose to base the daily diet of my dogs on.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Chicken wings may not be the best thing as they are quite bony and you don't want to overdo the calcium at this age. Chicken quarters are usually cheaper and more meaty. When Fawkes was like 9 weeks old, I was out of dog food meat that I thought he could handle and tried him on a drumstick and sure enough, he ate the majority of it (left a little bit of the main long bone). You can branch out into all sorts of different things. I get a lot of my dog food at the university's meat lab locally produced and at decent prices (especially organ meat).


I'm with you on chicken wings being my least favorite starter food (except as part of the whole bird); they are mostly bones and fatty skin.

A really great starter (for your own comfort level) is chicken backs -- soft cartilage-y bones and a good meat ratio.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Gary Garner said:


> Hi maren..
> 
> Thanks for your post... I always enjoy your viewpoint...


Play your cards right and you can join the other 150 of us who plan to get free vet care for life when Maren graduates. 

I know my dogs are under STRICT instructions not to get sick for the next couple of years.


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

No problem, Connie!  Them dogs of yorn better not be falling apart at the seams by the time I'm qualified! Not quite sure about all the free "care" part (cause the price of medical supplies is always high), but my time can be free or greatly reduced. :grin:

Gary, if you want to reduce the gulping, freezing the meat usually helps and it's good during teething time. I'd probably transition off chicken wings as she should be fine with thighs or drumsticks as well as backs. I feed leg quarters because they are cheap and I don't have a good source for backs. Actually, I feed all kinds of stuff, so mix it up. I have access to chicken and eggs, turkey, duck, pork, goat, lamb, beef, bison, venison, and a few types of fish, though it may be a bit harder to acquire where you're from. The idea is to mimic what they would eat "in the wild." *cue music* Basically, you're looking to model the whole prey.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> No problem, Connie!  Them dogs of yorn better not be falling apart at the seams by the time I'm qualified! .


Oh.

Then you were expecting some kind of interim maintenance to be done?

I guess we'd better be making plans to move, too, or the travel for vet visits is gonna kill me.




:lol:


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> Actually, I feed all kinds of stuff, so mix it up. I have access to chicken and eggs, turkey, duck, pork, goat, lamb, beef, bison, venison, and a few types of fish, though it may be a bit harder to acquire where you're from. The idea is to mimic what they would eat "in the wild." *cue music* Basically, you're looking to model the whole prey.



Yes yes yes yes yes.

I absolutely realize that we can't all provide that kind of variety, but with every canine nutrition course I take I learn more about how invaluable variety is.

Even varying a poultry basis with some lamb and fish is a huge improvement over the one-protein-source diet.

It's not just the worry about allergies, either; I keep learning about newly-identified micronutrients that only variety has a shot at covering. It's the stuff we DON'T yet know about that we can provide with variety.

Over time we develop an eye for the calcium-phosphorous ratio; at first I really think it's crucial to follow a well-researched diet like the one on Leerburg (or the Schultze book), and then when you have a good feeling for how the prey model (basically, the calcium-phosphorous ratio) breaks out, then variety is almost unlimited.


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## Gary Garner (Jun 30, 2007)

She has put on some weight in the last week and is chunkier... She is certainly longer and a little bit taller..

This is an over view of her....

Having been used to males before and big ones at that...I just find her so tiny...

She's got working line blood..and her family are all lean fast dogs..so I suppose most of it fits..

What do you think....?


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Do you also have a photo from the side, with you at her level?


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## Gary Garner (Jun 30, 2007)

Connie Sutherland said:


> Do you also have a photo from the side, with you at her level?


are these any good for you to tell...?


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## Lynn Cheffins (Jul 11, 2006)

to me she looks fine weight wise - she is not a deep bodied dog(don't see alot of chest below the elbows) and that might be why you percieve her as thin.

Straddle the dog and place your hands on her hips with your thumbs together between her hip bones - you should be able to feel the bony bits of the spine if you press down but there should not be a big obvious dip between the hip bones - move your hands down the dog with your hands feeling the ribs and thunbs onthe spine you should be able to feel ribs but not see them all and feel backbone but not have it obviously sticking up. I don't know if I explained that very well. Pups should be lean -- not roly poly. 

She is a really nice looking pup!


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## Kristen Cabe (Mar 27, 2006)

She looks perfect. A beautiful girl, for sure!


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## Gary Garner (Jun 30, 2007)

Thanks Lynn and Kristen...

I think you'd hit the nail on the head Lynn...with the deep bodied comment. I think that is what is subconsciously affecting me.. Having had male GSDs previously... which were all deep chested beasts....

To be honest, I didn't want a huge dog this time.. I want something that quick, agile and FAST !..and for 15 weeks...she's proving to be just that... Goodness knows what she'll be like when she's 18months/2 years old... :-s

She has quite a lot of prey drive....loads in fact..and doesn't seem to give up at all.. It's always me that terminates things..on the account of her age and the amount of exercise etc..


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Looks good to me too..... seeing some but not all of the ribs.... not seeing hip bones jutting ..... being able to *feel* all the ribs ..... those are some good clues (for me) to good weight.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Lynn Cheffins said:


> Straddle the dog and place your hands on her hips with your thumbs together between her hip bones - you should be able to feel the bony bits of the spine if you press down but there should be a big obvious dip between the hip bones - move your hands down the dog with your hands feeling the ribs and thunbs onthe spine you should be able to feel ribs but not see them all and feel backbone but not have it obviously sticking up. !


That's a great description.


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## Gary Garner (Jun 30, 2007)

Thanks again for your input connie..


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## ann schnerre (Aug 24, 2006)

oh gary, connie's the "BOMB" 
your girl looks wonderful; i thought she might be a BIT thin in the first photo, but looking at the others (particularly spine and hip), she's ok. maybe could use a little more, but better too thin than too fat, and conditioning dogs is as much an art as a science--you're doing fine.

and, once you have the "runs" under control, she'll be easier to put weight on.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

ann freier said:


> i thought she might be a BIT thin in the first photo, but looking at the others (particularly spine and hip), she's ok.


My exact thoughts, Ann...... in the first photo I wasn't 100% sure, but then the next one looked fine.

And I agree that she has room for a few more ounces (or not) .... she looks good.


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## Gary Garner (Jun 30, 2007)

that makes me feel better guys...

Her runs are done now..(fingers crossed)...motions have been solid for several days +


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## Gary Garner (Jun 30, 2007)

At the vets today, we weighed her and she was 11.4kgs... 

Two weeks ago, she was 8.3kgs... so she's put on some nice weight and is looking much better for it..


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