# KNPV stick attack questions



## Nick Hrycaj (Mar 30, 2014)

Stumbled upon this video that just happens to use a lot of slow motion.

http://youtu.be/QsX5M1mf7pQ?list=UUVURHPcOziQwoc7VX_l2YQw

Ive heard the saying countless times how dangerous a bad helper can be for a dog's safety and learning. Is this an example of less than stellar decoy work or is the frontal stick attack shown just a high impact maneuver by design?


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I believe that most of the danger comes when the stick hits are across the spine. 

Across the muscle mass of the shoulders shouldn't be a problem.


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## Marcel Winter (Mar 29, 2013)

Nick Hrycaj said:


> Stumbled upon this video that just happens to use a lot of slow motion.
> 
> http://youtu.be/QsX5M1mf7pQ?list=UUVURHPcOziQwoc7VX_l2YQw
> 
> Ive heard the saying countless times how dangerous a bad helper can be for a dog's safety and learning. Is this an example of less than stellar decoy work or is the frontal stick attack shown just a high impact maneuver by design?


 This helper is one of of the top KNPV helpers in Holland , this is a courage test
than you need a SERIOUS helper no pussy helper, video was made in Lunteren best stud contest

It,s not only the stick but most important is the threat from the helper.


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## Nick Hrycaj (Mar 30, 2014)

The sticks strikes dont worry me at all. I cringe at the full speed dog essentially stopping immediately on contact. Thinking mainly about neck issues

I give KNPV training and competitions lots of credit though. They all seem geared around pushing the limits of the dog to ensure a solid/ serious animal.


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## Jay Quinn (Apr 1, 2012)

This is just my own observations from lots of YouTube videos, I've not had the pleasure of seeing KNPV in person, and there is only a very small sport following over here and it's all schutzhund...

But it would seem to me that the KNPV dogs as a general rule don't launch themselves at the decoy from miles away, they get fairly close before they leave the ground, and there is also a lot of body contact from the dog - they use their whole body to slam into the decoy, with the dog in a somewhat vertical position, thus spreading the impact out and taking a lot of it away from the neck...

A lot of the SchH dogs I have seen are airborne miles away and as they are taking a forearm target that is out away from the body with nothing behind it the first point of contact is teeth on sleeve and the dogs are more horizontal when they hit so if the decoy screws up the catch the dog stops suddenly and jams up badly... 

I could be wrong here but as I said just my observations from watching a lot of videos...


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## Marcel Winter (Mar 29, 2013)

Well in KNPV there are some extreme flyers I know many

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J9uK2CZN4fo&list=UUVURHPcOziQwoc7VX_l2YQw


IPO or KNPV are 2 different things example the IPO decoy steps aside , the KNPV decoy runs right through the dog


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## Gerald Guay (Jun 15, 2010)

Nice!

GG


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## Mark Sheplak (Oct 28, 2011)

Marcel Winter said:


> IPO or KNPV are 2 different things example the IPO decoy steps aside , the KNPV decoy runs right through the dog


And that is a good thing....no?

The biomechanics of the impact are vastly different between a bicep bite on a relatively soft suit vs. a bite on a relatively hard sleeve. There is also some natural give and body rotation if the dog actually cleanly targets the bicep. If IPO helpers collided with dogs like KNPV helpers, you would have lots and lots of badly injured dogs. 

I would have to assume that spine and neck injuries are more common in KNPV.


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## John Wolf (Dec 12, 2009)

I didn't see any bad catches in that video. If you notice, if the dog comes more square, he leaves his feet a little to absorb the blow. I don't have enough experience with suit sports to comment competently but it seems to me that the fact that the dog hits with the whole body and can have a varied bite spreads the contact over more of the body. By that I mean, the dog on a sleeve has to be in a very specific place to get the bite on the sleeve and it puts the neck and spine in alignment amplifying the negative effects of "jamming" whereas these dogs seem to absorb the blow with the rest of their body. Could be completely wrong, just my uneducated observation.


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## Nick Hrycaj (Mar 30, 2014)

It's wild to me how well the dogs "hit and stick." Maybe it's that the majority of videos out there are competitions where the dogs are presumably very good, but I would expect more misses or bounce offs so to speak. The one in my link might be the only one I remember seeing in my YouTube browsing


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## Nicole Stark (Jul 22, 2009)

Well then, here's something for your viewing pleasure. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MhYXYbh88to

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6qre6fbpcFw


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## Marcel Winter (Mar 29, 2013)

Nicole Stark said:


> Well then, here's something for your viewing pleasure.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MhYXYbh88to
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6qre6fbpcFw


 Ivo collect all the bloopers from every training he did

I can collect all the IPO ,PSA, Ringbloopers and put in on youtube:mrgreen: what does it mean?

This is a video from the KNPV Championships all the stick attacks do you
see any wrong attack or bounced back ? of course it always can happen but thats in every sport

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9DgnekffoMQ&list=UUmRxn8Cw3gVEWdWfH6p9Htw


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## Marcel Winter (Mar 29, 2013)

Mark Sheplak said:


> And that is a good thing....no?
> 
> The biomechanics of the impact are vastly different between a bicep bite on a relatively soft suit vs. a bite on a relatively hard sleeve. There is also some natural give and body rotation if the dog actually cleanly targets the bicep. If IPO helpers collided with dogs like KNPV helpers, you would have lots and lots of badly injured dogs.
> 
> I would have to assume that spine and neck injuries are more common in KNPV.


1 the KNPV suit is not soft like ringsport suit its much harder its made from leather and jute did you ever wearing a suit like this or did some KNPV decoy work yourself?


2 What I say before its a serious reality courage test but some of the helpers give sometimes a body rotation.
.
3 IPO is not KNPV they are 2 diffferent diciplines


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## Mark Sheplak (Oct 28, 2011)

Marcel Winter said:


> 1 the KNPV suit is not soft like ringsport suit its much harder its made from leather and jute did you ever wearing a suit like this or did some KNPV decoy work yourself?
> 
> 
> 2 What I say before its a serious reality courage test but some of the helpers give sometimes a body rotation.
> ...


rel·a·tive·ly
ˈrelədivlē/
_adverb_
adverb: *relatively*
in relation, comparison, or proportion to something else.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

I have used the knpv style suit a few times, it is quite different than most other bitesuits.. harder for the dogs, harder on the human. (in my limited opinion)

thick hard layers of tight Jute over leather inner... no padding (the ones I tried out)


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## Ben Thompson (May 2, 2009)

The other bite suites are so much easier to put on and slip off. I do like the way the KNPV suits cover the hands.


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