# The Nitty Gritty



## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

I would like to know where the differences are in pressure in Schutzhund and Mondioring. I hear from both sides over here but would like to hear from you all on this forum.

Firstly:

What poses the greater pressure: bite on Schutzhund sleeve or bite on suit and why????

What poses the greater pressure before biting in Schutzhund or Mondio? In Schutzhund "raised stick" in Mondioring ????? (don't know exactly)

Is it the fact that the "arm" is nearer the throat?

Is it the fact in Mondio that the dog can bite where he wants (correct me if I'm wrong)? Does this "help" him?

I've read about the transfer from sleeve to suit and vice versa and gathered this is not a problem.

I'll stop here and wait for comments.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

39 views and no answers???


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## tracey schneider (May 7, 2008)

IMO for 1 and 2 the greatest pressure SHOULD be the decoy himself, not the equipment.

t


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Tracy congrats! you're the first to answer!

However, why do you think it depends on the decoy alone? Not against this but the question is the pressure put on the dog in Mondio and Schutz?!


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

89 views and still not more comments??

I's a lil' bit confused!!!


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

First off I must say we don’t (YET ) do mondioring, but we do PP



I would like to know where the differences are in pressure in Schutzhund and Mondioring. I hear from both sides over here but would like to hear from you all on this forum.

Firstly:

What poses the greater pressure: bite on Schutzhund sleeve or bite on suit and why????
(The greater pressure is produced using the bite suit. The why is because you can get the dog in the pocket and this is a very uncomfortable place for the dog to be in.)

What poses the greater pressure before biting in Schutzhund or Mondio? In Schutzhund "raised stick" in Mondioring ????? (don't know exactly what you mean)
( Before biting, They are done the same. It’s all prey for a young dog. )

Is it the fact that the "arm" is nearer the throat?
( I have no idea where this throat thing comes from so I’ll say no.)

Is it the fact in Mondio that the dog can bite where he wants (correct me if I'm wrong)? Does this "help" him?
(I don’t do Mondio so someone else will have to answer this. In the way we train PP we teach them to target the bite.)

I've read about the transfer from sleeve to suit and vice versa and gathered this is not a problem.
( Nope, no problem. For a dog thatis willing)


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

90% on here haven't title d a dog to 3 in any sport much less 2 same goes for helpers how can any one give a honest answer


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

ok!


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Quote Jerry:What poses the greater pressure: bite on Schutzhund sleeve or bite on suit and why????
(The greater pressure is produced using the bite suit. The why is because you can get the dog in the pocket and this is a very uncomfortable place for the dog to be in.) Unquote Jerry

Jerry, you'd have to be a little bit more explicit for me, please!


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## Lynda Myers (Jul 16, 2008)

Definitely no expert here but will give it a go as I'm training in both schutzhund and PSA/Mondio(new club coming together in my area).
Yeah, yeah, Jeff I know your expressed thoughts on PSA LOL. 

Gillian, what has been explained to me is this... in Schutzhund the pressure is more mental due to the fact of having to perform very precise routines in three avenues (ob,tracking and protection.
Where as in the others (Rings and PSA) the pressure is more environmental hence all the weird crap all over the field. The OB is not as crisp and there no tracking. I was told that because of my schutzhund ob I should ace the that in PSA/Mondio.
Pressure from the helper is going to be universal regardless of whether their using a suit or sleeve...frontal presentation, raised stick, lifting the dog off the ground, bending over the dog etc. 
I'm still learning so don't take it for gospel hopefully now some others with more experience will speak up and correct where ever I was wrong.










Gillian Schuler said:


> I would like to know where the differences are in pressure in Schutzhund and Mondioring. I hear from both sides over here but would like to hear from you all on this forum.
> 
> Firstly:
> 
> ...


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## Lynda Myers (Jul 16, 2008)

Jerry, I was under the impression that there is also a pocket when on the sleeve..like when the helper is driving the dog. The dog needs to be in the pocket in order for this to be done correctly and safely. Is this not the same as what you are talking about?
Please remember I'm still learning which is the reason for the question.



Jerry Lyda said:


> (The greater pressure is produced using the bite suit. The why is because you can get the dog in the pocket and this is a very uncomfortable place for the dog to be in.)


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

The pocket, I mean pulling the dog close to your body and covering him so that he can't see. If he stays on his a good dog that can go far, if he turns loose and backs out, OH WELL.

There should be lots of video coming out of The Gathering and you will see what I'm talking about. You will see more enviromental pressure put on these dogs that will compete in the Korung than most folks can even think of. Some of the schutzhund trained dogs will make the tests but most won't. They have never seen stuff like this. LE and PP trained dogs should do ok but all will not. If you miss seeing this then I hope there are plenty of videos. That is the pressure I'm talking about, Gillian.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Also a lot of yelling and screaming from the decoy. In real life the dog will be hearing this from the bad guy so we train for it. In Schutzhund there are only stick hits.


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## Lynda Myers (Jul 16, 2008)

Jerry Lyda said:


> The pocket, I mean pulling the dog close to your body and covering him so that he can't see. If he stays on his a good dog that can go far, if he turns loose and backs out, OH WELL.
> 
> There should be lots of video coming out of The Gathering and you will see what I'm talking about. You will see more enviromental pressure put on these dogs that will compete in the Korung than most folks can even think of. Some of the schutzhund trained dogs will make the tests but most won't. They have never seen stuff like this. LE and PP trained dogs should do ok but all will not. If you miss seeing this then I hope there are plenty of videos. That is the pressure I'm talking about, Gillian.


Thanks so they are similiar true PP is going to put more pressure on the dog but now we're comparing apples to oranges. As one is a sport and the other is in essence a bodyguard.

Ok so in theory any environmentally sound, confident hard dog should be able to get through with no problems or is some training involved or needed?


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

No the comparison is the same PP dogs also compete in sport.

Training is always involved and forever needed which is where you get that sound confident dog.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

QUOTE The pocket, I mean pulling the dog close to your body and covering him so that he can't see. If he stays on his a good dog that can go far, if he turns loose and backs out, OH WELL.
UNQUOTE

Gotcha!

As for screaming and yelling, I don't see this as a deterrent to the dog but rather an "egging it on" so wouldn't call it pressure.


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## Adam Swilling (Feb 12, 2009)

Gillian, I understand what you're saying about yelling and screaming but disagree. Let's say you're out in the woods and confront a bear. Are you going to stand there and try to stare it down? Even dogs do it. Dogs that are unsure of themselves will "hackle" up and bark. It's a natural way for an animal to make itself look bigger and louder than what it really is. If a stray dog wonders into your yard do you yell anything at it to make it leave? 

The best decoys I've seen use alot of eye contact and have great prescence, regardless of venue. IMO, eye contact is one of the biggest threats you can put on a dog. I do think that the dog is under more pressure with the suit, especially on inner arm bites as the dog is "giving up" more of his body to the attacker. Once a dog is on my bicep and I've got him wrapped up, he's got to fight me; it's not as easy for the dog to turn loose and show avoidance. 

As mentioned before by someone else, the threat level has nothing to do with the equipment; it has everything to do with the helper.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Thanks Adam, good explaination.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Adam, I don't get you. What I *actually* said was that the yelling and screaming *doesn't* seem to me to be a very big deterrent.

We had a helper in Schutzhund who also did Mondio and he used to scream like a Rooster. It didn't faze my Briard but lit nearly shook the living daylights out of me the first time I heard him.

Where did this go wrong? Can we get back on track?

What I do find and really like is that Mondioring is not a fixed routine like Schutz but this has nothing to do with the actual pressure put on the dog before and when biting.


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Gillian we are still on track.

The yelling and screaming is putting pressure on the dog. In your case, your dog handled it very well. A lot of dogs will release and not stay in the fight. Dogs need to be sound and this is a way to get them there. When and if they bite for real, people yell anad scram for two reasons. One because it hurts and two because they hope this will make the dog STOP.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Jerry, when doing Schutzhund, be it what it is, the dog comes into a sterile situation. Through running the blinds (IPO 1 only 2) he has to get into the drive to "challenge" the helper in the blind.

I've seen dogs that were "geared" up with screams and shouts, come into the "arena" take note of the sterility, become unhinged and run out of the arena. That's why screaming and shouting at the dog is not advantageous for Schutzhund, which leads me to believe that shouting and screaming eggs the dogs on, especially, the weaker ones who then don't engage when they should.

I'll get to the bottom of this one day. I truly would like to do Mondioring but I'm too late. I should be knitting in the living room if the truth were known - but it ain't!!!

Looking forward to the videos of the "meeting" and enjoying the fact that this isn't just a thread Mondio "the bees knees" - Schutzhund null:


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

Gillian this is good to talk about.

The running of the blinds in schutzhund is an obedience excercise not bite work. No one should be doing it at this time.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Now this I do not understand:

_The running of the blinds in schutzhund is an obedience excercise not bite work. No one should be doing it at this time._

No doubt you wil put it into "plain English"


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

OK here goes. You and the dog are judged on the obedience of the blind search, 1, 4 or 6 depending on level and the hold and bark. You call the dog out , fuss him the the line of departure and walk away. That's all obedience. 

Now the bite work starts. Only two bites here and each has two stick hits and no yelling and screaming. Now you do the escort with attack on handler. Then the last bite is the long bite.

Again the blind search and the hold and bark is an obedience excersise.


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## Adam Swilling (Feb 12, 2009)

Gillian, didn't mean to offend. That was not my intent at all. Yelling at the dog is designed to be a type of deterrant. In my experience, dogs that have stable nerve don't care if you're yelling or not. I've personally not decoyed any dogs that yelling at them put them into drive per se. Not saying it can't happen but typically eye contact and yelling at a weaker dog will at the very least cause the dog to show some type of hesitation. However, once the dog is conditioned to it, they tend to fire up. For example, when I'm training and let out a big war whoop, pretty much every dog on the place starts raising hell. So I do see your point; for alot of dogs it can fire them up, I just haven't seen that happen with weaker nerved dogs.

As far as running the blinds being an OB exercise, I think what Jerry is trying to say (stop me if I'm wrong, Jerry) is that a dog who has been taught and is solid at running blinds will run them whether a decoy is in one or not. The bite becomes the reward for doing the exercise. 

Although I don't train either one, IMO, mondio puts more "real" pressure on the dog just because it's not a set routine; the dog has to be ready for anything at any time. 

And I disagree, you should not be knitting in the living room.:-D


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

That's kind of what I'm saying. The dog knows the helper is behind the last blind but to get to the helper the dog must search all the blinds and in an order which will end up with the helper behind the last one. This is the obedience I'm talking about. The dog must not bite the helper when he finds him. This is all obedience. It's taught as obedience and in teaching the bite is the reward. At trial there is no reward. He will get his reward in the escape.


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## Gillian Schuler (Apr 12, 2008)

Adam, you didn't offend me in the least!

The groups / clubs I trained with didn't have any weak-nerved dogs. I was lucky to be in such groups.

I also think that the fact that Mondio is not a set routine is a plus.

I know exactly what is coming in IPO which I find boring but, the precision in heeling in the obedience section is causing me problems but I'm overcoming them. I have the control in Schutzdienst, i.e. the outs, the staying with me until I send him, etc. 

Jerry, I know it's an obedience exercise but what has this to do with the "pressure" on the dog?

There is obedience in Mondio - extremely so, when I think of calling off the dog before it gets to the helper.

Forget the "obedience" in both sports. Which dog feels more threatened " the dog that is "threatened" with the raised stick in the Rückentransport in IPO or the dog that is screamed, yelled at in Mondio?
When the dog is biting, the stick hits (now to be called "touches" in Switzerland :roll and the strokes with the clapper stick in Mondio are no threat as a rule.

I guess I have to do Mondio to find this out :mrgreen:


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## Jerry Lyda (Apr 4, 2006)

That's what I'm trying to say. There is no pressure during the blind search and there should be no yelling and screaming.

Yelling and screaming is putting pressure on a dog and if the dog don't back down then he is ok in my book.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

I'm going to find out about pressure this weekend at the gathering. 
My Schutz III hasn't seen a sleeve in almost a year and has never seen a suit. 
Win, loose or get chased home, he's going to see his first suit at "The Gathering". 8-[ 8-[ 
Be gentle Jerry! :lol::lol:;-)


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## Mike Scheiber (Feb 17, 2008)

Bob Scott said:


> I'm going to find out about pressure this weekend at the gathering.
> My Schutz III hasn't seen a sleeve in almost a year and has never seen a suit.
> Win, loose or get chased home, he's going to see his first suit at "The Gathering". 8-[ 8-[
> Be gentle Jerry! :lol::lol:;-)


I wouldn't worry its amazing how fast if the helper work is good that a good dog will adjust into a suite.
If your Schutzhund was proper your dogs aggression/desire was for the man and was channeled to the sleeve this is what he has been waiting for.


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## Bob Scott (Mar 30, 2006)

It will be fun either way! :wink:


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