# SAR Dog Roadside Obedience :p



## Sandra King (Mar 29, 2011)

Since I fit all the stereotypes on this forum, I thought I'd share some Roadside Obedience. 

I mainly train her off leash, in the road, on pretty much any parking lot I can find... not for competition but because I want to know that if I yell "Platz" she's going into the down. I want her to be able to heel off leash in any kind of situation and have at least a bit on focus on her. The minimum I think, that should be on any dog is BH level, even if you never take the BH. 
Anyhow, it's nothing fancy, nothing flashy but I think we ain't that bad...and yeah, I know, I have to get faster. I also know that I'm not wearing shoes either... :-\"

http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=1841825576302

You should be able to view the video since I put it out for everybody to watch


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Sandra King said:


> Since I fit all the stereotypes on this forum, I thought I'd share some Roadside Obedience.
> 
> I mainly train her off leash, in the road, on pretty much any parking lot I can find... not for competition but because I want to know that if I yell "Platz" she's going into the down. I want her to be able to heel off leash in any kind of situation and have at least a bit on focus on her. The minimum I think, that should be on any dog is BH level, even if you never take the BH.
> Anyhow, it's nothing fancy, nothing flashy but I think we ain't that bad...and yeah, I know, I have to get faster. I also know that I'm not wearing shoes either... :-\"
> ...


You mean there are forum stereotypes??? She looks like nice bitch but really---where are the distractions? You need some people, cars going by, a few pet dogs on flexi-leads and my favorite--sheep. I've been meaning to ask. Did you buy her in Germany or in the States?

Terrasita


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Sandra King said:


> You should be able to view the video since I put it out for everybody to watch


Actually, it seems to require FB login.


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## Sandra King (Mar 29, 2011)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> You mean there are forum stereotypes??? She looks like nice bitch but really---where are the distractions? You need some people, cars going by, a few pet dogs on flexi-leads and my favorite--sheep. I've been meaning to ask. Did you buy her in Germany or in the States?
> 
> Terrasita


LOL, on our street there is pretty much no distraction, except for the neighbors dogs that is charging on us if we walk further down the road. We did have two cars driving by, that is a record. HAHA
We do work around distractions though. :grin:


She is a nice bitch, actually... she's from Austria. The breeder trains in Germany (Tengen, with Juergen Ritzi) but breeds in Austria. http://www.zwinger-sattelberg.at/


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

You might want to post a link that doesn't require FB login.


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## Sandra King (Mar 29, 2011)

yeah, I am at it. For some reason it's really slow right now...


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## Sandra King (Mar 29, 2011)

Finally: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WTmtOcju9zg

Like I said, nothing fancy. We still work on the formal retrieve, Hier, Voraus, and I am retraining the stand since I want her butt to pop out. 

it's all still very basic stuff but she's got some very solid basic obedience on her. 

Never used any prong or e-collars either. So far the retrieve is coming along without all that stuff 
It just takes us longer and since I don't plan on competing I take my time.


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Sandra King said:


> Finally: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WTmtOcju9zg
> 
> Like I said, nothing fancy. We still work on the formal retrieve, Hier, Voraus, and I am retraining the stand since I want her butt to pop out.
> 
> ...


Contrary to popular belief, not everyone trains with prongs and e-collars. Heel, sit down, in motion, retrieves non-competitively can be child's play--especially with a GSD [yep, GSD biased]. Relax, don't let the peanut gallery put you into defense.

T


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## Sandra King (Mar 29, 2011)

Yep, so far I had no need for it, but as soon as she sees a bite suit, that focus is all gone. She knows exactly when she is at a dog club where they do bitework as well. 
I've had that happen at the Syracuse Club. No focus, no concentration at all because she knew that suit was out there. And she loves doing bite work. So if we continue going that route as well, I might have to put a prong on her, afterall.


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## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

Pretty cool (gulp), is that the SAR dog?


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

must be nice...

If I tried that, my dog would be jumped by a pack of dogs consisting of 2 bichons, a mini-pinscher, a chihauhau or two, and a cute english bulldog.

I actually wish there were MORE flexileads here, better than NO LEADS..


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## Sandra King (Mar 29, 2011)

Faisal Khan said:


> Pretty cool (gulp), is that the SAR dog?


Yeah, that is the SAR dog. 
I know, it's not flashy, not fancy, it's just basic obedience, for the real world and not for competition 




> must be nice...
> 
> If I tried that, my dog would be jumped by a pack of dogs consisting of 2 bichons, a mini-pinscher, a chihauhau or two, and a cute english bulldog.
> 
> I actually wish there were MORE flexileads here, better than NO LEADS..


I am really lucky, except for the neighbors dogs that are only confined by that electric fence and the bully on the long leash that is charging us, we have no problems with other dogs whatsoever. The only dog worked off leash is mine, everybody else is walking his dogs on the leash and some don't walk them at all because they have a fenced in yard.


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Sandra King said:


> Finally: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WTmtOcju9zg


Was that you passing gas at the 40 second mark ?


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## Sandra King (Mar 29, 2011)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> Was that you passing gas at the 40 second mark ?


Yeah, because of your bad cooking. You need to learn how to cook beens. [-X


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## Maren Bell Jones (Jun 7, 2006)

Joby Becker said:


> must be nice...
> 
> If I tried that, my dog would be jumped by a pack of dogs consisting of 2 bichons, a mini-pinscher, a chihauhau or two, and a cute english bulldog.
> 
> I actually wish there were MORE flexileads here, better than NO LEADS..


My mother in law would probably say differently. She had to break up a fight between her dog (an Aussie/ACD/something else) and a pit bull mix who was on a flexi when she was walking him. Neither dog bit or scratched her, but she got some pretty deep cuts/burns on her hands, arms, and legs from the flexi the other dog had on.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Maren Bell Jones said:


> My mother in law would probably say differently. She had to break up a fight between her dog (an Aussie/ACD/something else) and a pit bull mix who was on a flexi when she was walking him. Neither dog bit or scratched her, but she got some pretty deep cuts/burns on her hands, arms, and legs from the flexi the other dog had on.



there is a stop button on a flexi, of course it is not idiot proof..

I use a flexi often


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> there is a stop button on a flexi, of course it is not idiot proof..
> 
> I use a flexi often


That's the problem, when they are trying to reel that sucker in, they seem to forget where the buttons are. When training in Petsmart, love it when the dog is in one isle and the owner in the next with the flexi-lead. I would ban them from the planet.

T


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> That's the problem, when they are trying to reel that sucker in, they seem to forget where the buttons are. When training in Petsmart, love it when the dog is in one isle and the owner in the next with the flexi-lead. I would ban them from the planet.
> 
> T


that is what a "recall" is for...you don't reel dogs in...LOL


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## Terrasita Cuffie (Jun 8, 2008)

Joby Becker said:


> that is what a "recall" is for...you don't reel dogs in...LOL


Not for the general populace--that's what the flexi is for----freedom and no recall.

T


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## Anna Kasho (Jan 16, 2008)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> Not for the general populace--that's what the flexi is for----freedom and no recall.
> 
> T


LMAO. I use a flexi for teaching recall to puppies. Also position changes at a distance. \\/


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## Faisal Khan (Apr 16, 2009)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> That's the problem, when they are trying to reel that sucker in, they seem to forget where the buttons are. When training in Petsmart, love it when the dog is in one isle and the owner in the next with the flexi-lead. I would ban them from the planet.
> 
> T


Amen.


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## Anna Kasho (Jan 16, 2008)

Terrasita Cuffie said:


> That's the problem, when they are trying to reel that sucker in, they seem to forget where the buttons are. When training in Petsmart, love it when the dog is in one isle and the owner in the next with the flexi-lead. I would ban them from the planet.
> 
> T


Oh, almost forgot about the nervebag weimaraner who got killed by a car near my shop - ran around a corner into the alley with the idiot owner 20ft away on the other end of the flexi.


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## Sandra King (Mar 29, 2011)

Anna Kasho said:


> Oh, almost forgot about the nervebag weimaraner who got killed by a car near my shop - ran around a corner into the alley with the idiot owner 20ft away on the other end of the flexi.


That is just plain stupid. Some people shouldn't own dogs.


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## Joby Becker (Dec 13, 2009)

I see what you guys are talking about...I went to Petsmart today LOL...

There were 3 people in line with dogs, the people were pretty much oblivious, their 3 dogs were all up eachothers asses, and were all tangled in the flexileads...it was a real mess.

One of them ran off when the owner unclipped it to get it free from the tangle..and got bit by another customers Rottweiler that was waiting at the end of the line, the rottweiler was laying down under control, and the other dog ran up and jumped on his back....

As I was sitting by the crickets waiting for the guy that works there to come over, a 5-6 yr old boy comes around the corner with a growling chihauhau and was going to let it "play" with my dog, who was laying down patiently waiting, for the guy to come, or the kid to let the chihuaha come a little closer. I told the kid dont come by us.....

When I got home there was a little girl maybe 7-8 with 2 little anklebiters on flexileads in from of my house. Never seen her or the dogs before, have no clue where she was from, but they got all tangled up with eachother areound the full sized traffic cone goal post that the kids play soccer with, that they leave in the middle of the street...I helped her get them untangled. 

I still like them though


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## Jim Delbridge (Jan 27, 2010)

Ok, weighing in on this late, BUT

Sandra, if you are going to do SAR....seriously....with a trailing dog....I'd have you out doing 5-milers with your dog. Dog looks in great shape, but you will be holding it back on a search. You should be able to do at least a 12-minute mile with no gear and no less than a 15-minute mile with full gear on and a dog....that's not fast at all but it leaves a lot of potential handlers wanting.

I had a woman training HRD with me who had a great lab. She was very heavy, had a bad hip, and a bad heart. I told her she could not continue to train with me in her current health condition. She asked why. I set up a one-acre problem with a strong source. The dog raced out to it, found it, and alerted. Handler was no where to be found......she was slow. I ran with the dog. As handler wasn't around, he considered eating my source. I rewarded him for the alert and did reinforcements with him till she showed up, minutes later. Even with a body that's not going anywhere, the searcher has to be able to keep up with their dog as otherwise they run the risk of the dog contaminating evidence ...Or just being accused their dog snacked when it could have been coyotes, but we'll never know if the dog was there long before anyone else showed up. With a trailer, someone's life could be at stake.

I've flanked for bloodhound trailers where the handler and dog were flying through the forest and if I wasn't able to do my own steeplechase then they would have left me behind. I'm not in the best of shape, but I can move through the forest at a good clip; Otherwise, these handlers wouldn't let me continue to go along.

The obedience is fine, but it's schutzhund/AKC style. SAR dogs should have looser obedience where they aren't doing the look at handler's face all the time. I had a major discussion with a trainer on this some years back. She was my TDI evaluator, but also does AKC obedience. She kept harping that my dog should be looking at my face. I took the dog off-lead for the rest of the class and did all off-lead with the dog's face always looking ahead and then I told her, the scent is down not at my face. Scent is king, I don't care if the dog ever looks at my face as long as it is working. If your dog goes into obedience mode on a search then it will not find scent as it'll be looking at your face.

The three most important obedience tools in SAR are a solid off-lead stay, a recall, and a down-stay from anywhere and in any situation. All of these are essential mainly for the dog's safety.

Jim Delbridge


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Jim Delbridge said:


> Ok, weighing in on this late, BUT
> 
> Sandra, if you are going to do SAR....seriously....with a trailing dog....I'd have you out doing 5-milers with your dog. Dog looks in great shape, but you will be holding it back on a search. You should be able to do at least a 12-minute mile with no gear and no less than a 15-minute mile with full gear on and a dog....that's not fast at all but it leaves a lot of potential handlers wanting.
> 
> ...


Jim,

I agree with you about Sandra needing to get into shape if she is serious about SAR.

I disagree somewhat about your obedience suggestions. 

If teaching a dog some formal heeling or obedience in my spare time is going to ruin it for searching, it did not have the independence and hunt drive I wanted in the first place. Or...I am a bad trainer and presented the wrong picture to my dog. Like you I would NOT be happy if my dog went into obedience mode and was walking around looking at my face in heel position when searching!!!!!!!

I will explain further for you. Formal obedience (let us use attention heeling as the example), can have a distinct beginning and end to the session. A set of cues that is very different from searching. I will agree with you one hundred percent that a SAR dog does not need to walk down the street looking at its handler's face at all times, and one should never think that that what is needed. 

I also have an "informal" heeling command, where the dog is loosly on either side of me and can look where ever it darn well pleases. Like I said, no reason to have any dog walking down a main street looking up at the handlers face prancing like a pony.

In fact, I like to do most of my real walking with the dog off leash in the woods, with NO obedience commands at all. The dog is allowed to range, and just be a dog (no animal chasing mind you...)

Formal obedience, done correctly, can still be of benefit for a well chosen SAR dog. It can be a fun way to spend time with a high drive dog, and use some of its brain power learning new things. There are in fact times when some attention for a few seconds or minutes can come in handy in the real world as well.

My group has an obedience standard (pass/fail) that far exceeds the safety ob you mentioned. The standard was set by LE that does our certifications. It has a few things in it that really piss some SAR handlers off, such as a formal retrieve. Some handlers whine that not all this stuff is needed for a SAR dog and it is too hard to train. I look at it differently. It is a chance to:

Play and bond with my dog during ob training 
Another way to showcase my skills as a dog trainer and skills of my dog to evaluators
To ensure that I will have control of my dog in stressful environments
Force me to learn to problem solve with dogs when I am teaching new things
Showcase and use my dog's drive in a positive way

I think you and I would for sure agree that a handler bound dog would be a lousy SAR dog. I just disagree that doing some formal motivational fun obedience with a dog would be the cause of a handler bound dog, unless of course the training is bad, or the selection of the dog for SAR poor to begin with.


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## Sandra King (Mar 29, 2011)

I know that I need to get back into shape. However, so far I've been able to hold up with the searches and the training we did with the team. Trust me, I am working on my endurance and condition and I fully, well know that Indra is in much better shape than I am. I train her. I work on her endurance more than I work on mine, even though I am the one riding the bike . 

I might not be a fast person, but I can hold up over those distances. 

As for obedience, I highly disagree with you. She's got a great hunt drive and the obedience is not killing her will to search and to range out. When I go on normal walks, I do not require her to keep focus on me. She's a dog. 

When I go out to a search, I make her watch me first, and then send her out, and she ranges out of sight with no issue at all. The focus has nothing to do with being handler bound. However, I don't walk up there, heeling. 

The obedience is completely separated from the search work. The obedience is there so I can trust my dog in public and I know that when I yell down, she's going down. To me, not having obedience on a dog would be much more of a liability issue than anything else. 

SAR and Obedience, when done right, does not interfere with each other, just like Schutzhund and SAR does not interfere. If it did, I doubt that people like Bill Dotson wouldn't buy KNPV/Ringsport titled dogs and turn them into SAR dogs.

As for my shape, yes, I fully agree. I need to get back into shape and I am working on it. It's just a very slow progress and if I want to do it the healthy way, it'll take a while.



> I'm not in the best of shape, but I can move through the forest at a good clip; Otherwise, these handlers wouldn't let me continue to go along.


Same goes with my team. If I couldn't hold up, I wouldn't be out there and if it is a search where I know I can't do it. I stay at home or do something else. I've got a good head on my shoulder and I wouldn't bring myself and my teammate as well as my dog into danger just because I want to be out there searching, self-deploying myself. There are many jobs within the Searching Team.


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## Jim Delbridge (Jan 27, 2010)

A lot of handlers come from obedience to SAR because they just "want more"; Thus, a lot of SAR handlers want that crispness that obedience trials suggest. I see way more potential SAR dogs with Too Much obedience on them than too little. If you talk to a lot of the "old salts" in SAR, you'll hear of a term called "intelligent disobedience" where the dog understands the search game better than the handler. The handler decides where the scent source/victim/trail is going to be and utilizes obedience to get the dog to demonstrate how smart the handler is. Such dog teams tend to miss victims or in my case, I go find remains after other dog teams miss the person or the remains. Certain breeds lend themselves to doing whatever they think the handler wants. Such breeds are great for obedience. Such breeds are great for producing false alerts because their handler trained scent like they do obedience because it worked so well before.

On searches, my dogs only deploy when they reach what I call "scent expert" status. At that point, my job is solely as area manager making sure the dog has the opportunity to acquire scent. That does not mean I dictate where the dog checks. It means I define the boundries and pay attention to where the dog hasn't been. A "back" and a "this way" are all that's needed. If I wanted a robot, I'd keep the dog on-lead. My point is, too much obedience creates an invisible lead to the dog where upon the handler can screw the dog up just as much as if the lead was still there.

When I train other dog teams, I tend to be the one to tell the handler that their dog is in obedience mode now. Only then does the handler recognize that the dog is not searching, but is following their lead. 
I do enough obedience on my dog to work off-lead, get a CGC(extremely easy even doing it off-lead), and to do the occassional demos. 

My dogs are rarely on-lead. I tend to carry a lead at training because it's expected. Usually, I put my dogs on-lead if there are dogs present that I don't trust to be civilized.

If I want fun with my dogs, we go train. I train scent with my dogs 3-5 times a week, some times more.

If you need to showcase your skills as a dog trainer, I'd suggest you do so with scent for the SAR dog. I tend to be able to work almost anyone's dog at a seminar or training. I try not to because I can't go out in the field with the dog and I'd prefer the handler improve their skills. If I think it will benefit the handler to see their dog work scent in a different way, I will ask if I can work their dog. If they say no, I'm fine with that and suggest what I'd like the handler to do. The biggest handicap I see with handlers, especially in HRD, is they tend to be too serious. They tend to act like John Wayne in the movie, Big Jake, where his entire menu of obedience commands was "DAWG!" and the terv was expected to know his thought process. People rarely consider that there was a handler off-to-the-side giving the dog hand signals for what it was really supposed to do with even multiple dogs performing. 

I was offered a chance to go train obedience with a team mate at her school one time. I brought one of my dogs and did everything she requested off-lead. One of her regular students asked about me and her reply was, "well, sure, Jim works with his dogs all the time." My point is AKC and Shutzhund obedience looks nice and it's quite artificial. I do my obedience at parks with 20 people millling around, going to their vehicles, kids running up to my dogs, etc. It doesn't look like ring obedience. The dog appears civilized, does whatever I ask it to, and is relaxed the whole time. That's the way all dog obedience should be. I was much more impressed by the old man walking through the central Paris train station with his terrier at his side than any obedience trial. The old man never looked down at his dog, yet it was there always. The dog never looked up at the man as it would have gotten a sore neck. The old man went into a restaurant and the dog parked itself outside the door till he came back out. They went up escalators, down stairs, store to store, etc. That dog team deserved an obedience title more than any AKC trial dog team. That's what obedience should look like.

In a search, scent should be kind except for boundries and safety; Otherwise, the handler should get out of the dog's way and let it work. An over obedient dog will never be comfortable with this set up.



Just my opinion,

Jim Delbridge


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## Jim Delbridge (Jan 27, 2010)

Bill used to crack me up with the malinois he carted around in the back of his duelie. At every seminar he taught at that dog would scare the crap out of unsuspecting dog handlers walking past the truck as it would literally rock the entire truck from side to side as it was bellowing its barks. 

I can't speak for Bill and you probably shouldn't either.

Jim


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## Sandra King (Mar 29, 2011)

Jim, I am not going to sit here all day long, arguing about whether or not obedience ruins a SAR dog. I know it doesn't. If it did, we wouldn't have good SAR dogs in Germany since almost every shepherd over there has the SchH1 on him. As a matter of a fact, every SAR Dog I know, in Germany, has the BH and the SchH1. 

The Obedience does not kill her will to search. 

And I am going to post as many obedience or other kind of videos as I want. I don't need anyones approval or permission to do so. And just for the record. I don't have an obedience trainer (the AKC "advanced obedience" class is a joke.), I don't have a Schutzhund Club. I train wherever I can. At parks, parking lots, petsmart, petco, around walmart, in the middle of the road because the next Schutzhund Club is like four hours away and most of the time she's off leash, or the leash is on the ground since some people are quick to complain about a dog off leash. 

I really don't understand what your issue is. She's my dog. Not yours. I decide how much obedience I put on her. It shouldn't be any of your concern at all. She's searching just fine, she's going out of sight so I can't control her anyhow. She's so fast gone, there is no obedience issue.


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## Sandra King (Mar 29, 2011)

Jim Delbridge said:


> Bill used to crack me up with the malinois he carted around in the back of his duelie. At every seminar he taught at that dog would scare the crap out of unsuspecting dog handlers walking past the truck as it would literally rock the entire truck from side to side as it was bellowing its barks.
> 
> I can't speak for Bill and you probably shouldn't either.
> 
> Jim


I don't speak for him, it's a fact.


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

Interesting opinion about the search and OB. It has been my experience (tracking, building, narc) when the handler is an ass about OB (yank and crank, diminishing drives) is when the trouble starts with searching. I find that when you do OB in any positive manner it will increase the searching behaviour especially if you indirect reward.


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## Jim Delbridge (Jan 27, 2010)

*laugh* yea yea, the Germans do it the only right way. You told me yourself in another thread how many poor SAR dog handlers there are in Germany as it has become the "in thing to be."
I thought americans were the only ones to turn a breeding test into a sport.
You are correct. It is your dog and you can do anything with your dog that you want.

I was trying to be honest and helpful, but like many SAR dog handlers, you choose to justify what you already do rather than ponder what does work for others. I wish your victims much luck if you ever do get to deploy. Considering I work only HRD, it probably just means more searches for me.
I really do wish that trend would reverse itself.

Jim


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## Sandra King (Mar 29, 2011)

will fernandez said:


> Interesting opinion about the search and OB. It has been my experience (tracking, building, narc) when the handler is an ass about OB (yank and crank, diminishing drives) is when the trouble starts with searching. I find that when you do OB in any positive manner it will increase the searching behaviour especially if you indirect reward.


Exactly, not only that but from my experience, especially pet dogs, that get squished anytime they do something unwanted, always look to their handler as if they wanted to ask "Is it okay that I do that? Really? I don't get punished for that?"

I have very independent dogs. Heck, she was allowed to go on off leash hikes when she wasn't even four months old and she went with my male and other bitch, ranging, running, investigating, the area. She's always been an independent dog and nothing will ever change that. Most certainly not my training methods which 95% is positive re-inforcement. It's rare that I correct her at all.


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## Sandra King (Mar 29, 2011)

> *laugh* yea yea, the Germans do it the only right way. You told me yourself in another thread how many poor SAR dog handlers there are in Germany as it has become the "in thing to be."


And that is true too. But you said the same thing about the US Dogs. Does that mean that you don't have any good dogs at all? Nope! You've got some of the most awesome dogs and working stock in the US. 
And so have we. We have some handlers that have no business in SAR, Schutzhund or anything dog related. So has the US but both countries have some of the worlds, greatest handlers and dogs. 

Jim, you've never seen her work at all. She's an awesome dog. If she had those issues, she wouldn't go out of sight. She's always been an independent dog, even as a puppy, she was independent. Trust me, the obedience is not killing her drive or will to search.




> I was trying to be honest and helpful, but like many SAR dog handlers, you choose to justify what you already do rather than ponder what does work for others. I wish your victims much luck if you ever do get to deploy. Considering I work only HRD, it probably just means more searches for me.
> I really do wish that trend would reverse itself.


No, you generalize and judge a dog you have not even seen work yourself.


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## Jim Delbridge (Jan 27, 2010)

will fernandez said:


> Interesting opinion about the search and OB. It has been my experience (tracking, building, narc) when the handler is an ass about OB (yank and crank, diminishing drives) is when the trouble starts with searching. I find that when you do OB in any positive manner it will increase the searching behaviour especially if you indirect reward.


 
Will, the key to all you referred to was on-lead work. My young dog drags a long-line. My working dog rarely if ever works on-lead.........more obedience means invisible lead.


......lose the lead........

Jim


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## Jim Delbridge (Jan 27, 2010)

Sandra,
post a utube (or whatever) of your dog working scent in a double-blind. I'll be happy to recant my opinion if I see good work. Careful, though, as videos of scent work can bite you in the butt in court down the line. If you want to send it to me privately then I'll respond honestly. I love to see a dog working scent all on its own and for the joy of doing the work. If I see good dog work, I'll post anywhere you want that I saw a dog work a nice problem.

HRD dogs have a bad rep for the handler being too close to the dogs. People that train with me get harped at that I want to see them 20 feet, 30 feet, 40 feet, more from their dog while its working.

let's hope yours can do the same.

Jim


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## Sandra King (Mar 29, 2011)

Her very first blind search. The girl was hidden underneath a camo blanket. If she had that invisible lead, she wouldn't go out of sight, don't you think? 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-YclKP4XX0

And if she doesn't search in this one, I don't know what she does. 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJKizg1DMkI&feature=related


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

Jim

I do track on lead..yes...But my building/area searches for a man is all off lead. The only time I will do a narc search on lead is on the side of the road. The rest are always done off. The dog is allowed to search freely and then he will be guided to areas by the handler if necessary.

I hate leads they only get in the way.


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## Jim Delbridge (Jan 27, 2010)

Sandra King said:


> Her very first blind search. The girl was hidden underneath a camo blanket. If she had that invisible lead, she wouldn't go out of sight, don't you think?
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-YclKP4XX0
> 
> 
> ...


Sorry, searches for toys just don't count. now, if you'd hidden a person behind the gate or up in the playhouse where she couldn't get to them and we get to see how she solves the problem, that would have been nice to watch.

Is this the dog that injured herself? I thought you were looking for a trailer....?

Jim


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## Jim Delbridge (Jan 27, 2010)

will fernandez said:


> Jim
> 
> I do track on lead..yes...But my building/area searches for a man is all off lead. The only time I will do a narc search on lead is on the side of the road. The rest are always done off. The dog is allowed to search freely and then he will be guided to areas by the handler if necessary.
> 
> I hate leads they only get in the way.


Several handlers I know with high energy dogs are having success with "obedience in drive" which when described to me was basically sleeve work to pump the dog and still have control.

When I first started and I thought my dogs were dinking, then I'd put them in a sit. This gave me time to not lose my temper and to "refocus the dog."
Over the years I've learned a lot more about scent theory and have figured out that if there is no scent, yet I belabor the area, the dog will begin to entertain itself. I've also learned that if I want the dog to be really focused in a directed search off-lead that I have to do trainings where I build time-to-source. I think Jonni Joyce calls it "nose time." Basically, I consider it like playing the slots. You convince the dog that the locker with the scent source in it (drugs) is just around the next corner. You convince the dog that it must still have the "hoover action nose" on every grill of the locker, but that nothing there is not an excuse to make up its own game. And, yes, this is all positive and when the dog makes a find you have to be "PeeWee Herman on Crack."

For area searching, I take my dogs on longer and longer walks (I tend to say enough at 13 miles) and then put the dog to work on arrival to the designated search area. On the walks I can correct on all scents that I don't like (dead possom, raccoon, road kill of any nature, etc.) and keep the dog's nose active. That training starts with a half-mile and builds from there.

Jim


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## Sandra King (Mar 29, 2011)

Jim Delbridge said:


> Sorry, searches for toys just don't count. now, if you'd hidden a person behind the gate or up in the playhouse where she couldn't get to them and we get to see how she solves the problem, that would have been nice to watch.
> 
> Is this the dog that injured herself? I thought you were looking for a trailer....?
> 
> Jim


No, her brother had injured himself and yes, I am looking for a trailer. 

Well, sorry... that is all I have right now. At least you can see her nose in the air and that she's actually searching. 

And for the first video, I'd say she's pretty good at going out of sight and has no obedience issue at all, don't you think? 

If obedience would kill her will of search and there was an obedience issue, she would stay close and wouldn't go as far as she does. 

What is your opinion on article search?


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Jim,

I am sure I could learn a lot about scent work from you sometime, especially HRD, I know nothing about that work. I read your posts on the subject with great interest.

That said, I am with Will, in that when formal obedience was done in the past with more compulsion, it was possible to squash a dog's drive if too much control was put on a dog at a young age, especially if the rules were unclear.

Even in your example of having a dog losely heeling off leash, NOT looking at the handler, the dog must still be paying attention (peripherally) to the handler to maintain position. Even if the dog fell into THAT mode during searching, it would be bad news indeed. So I really think it has nothing to do with if the dog looks at the handler or not.

You and I agree one hundred percent that a dog that is handler bound is not good.

If you consider that a lot of what LE does is search work, and a fair bit of it off lead search work, and that they still have to put some decent obedience on their dogs, and that they can still have independent searchers that kick ass on the street, it could be food for thought.

I still really think that it is about HOW you teach the ob, and having the right dog if you want to do that kind of ob.

You might call me narrow minded, but like you I am just stating what has worked for me and what I like. I am not trying to change your mind, or say mine is the only way.....just trying to present another opinion to those who might be reading the thread.


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## Jim Delbridge (Jan 27, 2010)

Sandra King said:


> No, her brother had injured himself and yes, I am looking for a trailer.
> 
> Well, sorry... that is all I have right now. At least you can see her nose in the air and that she's actually searching.
> 
> ...


 
For your trailer, you want a puppy whose nose appears stuck to the ground, not that common in the herding breeds, but they are out there.

On the area search, you may not see her go into obedience mode until:
- conditions are harsh, be it environmental, noise, whatever
- you get frustrated and think she's not working (this will be your biggest concern. If you get mad at the dog, then simply crate her neutrally (the dog can't think you are mad), cool down, think over what is the issue (as in is it the dog, you, the victim, what?). Once you resolve the distraction, then work through it with the dog, but do not force it via obedience.
- You've gone past her current endurence level or scenting ability(If you only do live search then this shouldn't be a big deal. My dogs have to develop down to finding a single tooth in crappy conditions.)

Dogs, especially GSDs and Labs, go into obedience mode when they think they've displeased their handler OR they just aren't sure what the task is.....so, they go to what they know to try to find a common communication ground.


On article search, I believe it's best taught off-line first then when you feel the dog is really good at it then you integrate it into the search problems starting with easy then gradual difficulty. You should never expect the dog to do a more difficult problem on the trail or area search than it's already solved off-line. 
This way you can have a trained response already developed with the scent trigger, i.e. the dog sits or downs at an article when it finds one. If you expect it of the area search dog, you have to decide if you intend to make the dog scent specific or do you expect the dog to alert on every article with human scent on it...... Consider searching an empty fair grounds for a missing kid after a fair with all the "human litter" left behind.....it's a target rich environment unless you are training for scent specific.

Jim


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## Jim Delbridge (Jan 27, 2010)

Jennifer Coulter said:


> Jim,
> 
> I am sure I could learn a lot about scent work from you sometime, especially HRD, I know nothing about that work. I read your posts on the subject with great interest.
> 
> ...


 
i teach the dog to sit at the end of heel by watching my feet, not my body.
While I do have a negative correction that dog's understand, I have never taught with compulsion.
I understand your perspective.

Jim


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## will fernandez (May 17, 2006)

Jim

Although it sounded as if it was directed at you the comment about the yank and crank was meant in general. my apologies 

Sent from my SCH-I510 using Tapatalk


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## Jim Delbridge (Jan 27, 2010)

No worries, I knew what you meant.

Jim



will fernandez said:


> Jim
> 
> Although it sounded as if it was directed at you the comment about the yank and crank was meant in general. my apologies
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I510 using Tapatalk


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Jim - the "nose time" concept probably one of the more valuable things we have embraced. I want to see that dog still searching after two hours and a handler who can read the dog well enough to know when the dog switches from scanning for scent to going for a walk. Well at least for us for HRD stuff. I have seen longer on live but I think the scanning for small HR is more tedious. We can do two hour sessions with a decent break between.

I have seen too much early obedience and dogs that would not range but can't really argue against it if the right dog will. I would not count those videos as examples of much though, but this is beginning training so it is not a negative comment. 

Take the victim, drive them to an area inside about 40-60 acres, let them sit for a few hours, and let the dog search where the victim never walked. Realize you have to build up to that but that should take an hour or two, maybe more, depending on the terrain. See if that dog is ranging out to scan and then will leave the handler when they hit. 

Leaving the handler when they hit scent to me is not the same as leaving the handler at a good working distance to hunt. I want my dog to cast out so that he covers a lot more ground than I do.

For obedience we do have some minimum requirements......

Dog can be loaded or unloaded by a teammate

Dog walks loosely on a lead without pulling 

Emergency Stop

Recall under distraction

Stay

Passes a CGC test

Passes initial tie out testing to check for agression as well as general decent temperament over time.

Dog can be loaded in a vehicle with another dog and a bunch of people. [for example you really don't want to discover a problem when you go to put two dogs and handlers on the back of a gator]

-------

Also a big believer in scent specific area search dogs but that seems to be a regional sort of thing.


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## Jim Delbridge (Jan 27, 2010)

Nancy Jocoy said:


> Jim - the "nose time" concept probably one of the more valuable things we have embraced. I want to see that dog still searching after two hours and a handler who can read the dog well enough to know when the dog switches from scanning for scent to going for a walk. Well at least for us for HRD stuff. I have seen longer on live but I think the scanning for small HR is more tedious. We can do two hour sessions with a decent break between.
> 
> *My personal goal is the dog will work for four hours straight before it needs a mental break. A lot of that is handler driven though. HRD work can be a lot more mental for the dog than the other specialties.*
> 
> ...


 *Yup, some teams are happy if their dog finds anyone in their area.*

*Jim*


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

You will get no argument from me that the searching gets harder on longer search times with no scent to follow, with more distractions and smaller amounts of scent and so on. Progressing with nose time stuff is very important indeed.

I do work in an industry that demands that dogs work through pretty severe scenting distractions, for amounts of scent that could vary bigtime, nasty environmental conditions, with pretty extreme pressure on the handler. At least I feel that pressure...maybe someone else would think it was a cake walk...I dunno.

For sure lots of dogs can look strong and independent on a 5 minute search, but might not look so hot after an hour and a half with no finds and so on. However....if a dog does not look strong and independent on a 5 minute search, it is not going to get strong and independent when things get harder LOL.

The reality is that even with a dog that has no real ob at all, there are some dogs that lack hunt and prey drive that are going to look handler bound almost right of the bat. They should obviously be washed from the program. I am sure we have all seen those, no matter our ob preferences. Sport style obedience is not the only reason for a handler bound dog.

I agree that sport style obedience does not need to be a requirement for SAR teams...I didn't mean to suggest that it should. Only that if you like training that way, doesn't mean you will have a crappy search dog persay. In my experience.


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

*One of the plateaus that many area search dog teams don't seem to achieve is the dog searching to acquire scent rather than starting out with an existing cone.*

Really? Many teams search only with their dogs starting in a scent cone?


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## Jennifer Michelson (Sep 20, 2006)

Jennifer Coulter said:


> *One of the plateaus that many area search dog teams don't seem to achieve is the dog searching to acquire scent rather than starting out with an existing cone.*
> 
> Really? Many teams search only with their dogs starting in a scent cone?


Yeah, I was puzzled by that comment too....Jim-do you mean trailing dogs? Unless my team is the minority, I thought that training air scent involved lots of negative area and a lot of problems set up where the victim goes into the area opposite where the dog begins from.

On the obedience topic--I didnt see any problem with what Sandra was doing with her pup. Looked pretty low stress to me. I am also involved with people who dont mind schuthund and SAR together. But I believe that there absolutely can be too much obedience and it is a line you cannot cross. So much better less formal ob than a little too much. To me the priority has to be the search and if you do too much ob for that particular dog, you do impact the search.


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## Jim Delbridge (Jan 27, 2010)

Yup, it's what the handler knows. The handler tries to get downwind so that if there is a person there they should be stepping right into the scent cone.
When I evaluate area searchers, I get out the topo of the area and determine what scent will do if I put a person here, there, over there, etc. I don't blame the handler to working this way as you do want to find your victim as quickly as possible as it might save their life. But, they need to train for those days in deep woods where the only air movement is due to thermal changes. I want to see them working the creeks, the valleys or ridges depending on what the sun is doing.
The handler should be able to tell the evaluator why they are searching where they are. The handler should be able to change search strategy as the environment changes and explain why they are doing this. And, the handler has to be able to keep track of what got missed in their area when they have come to the end. I'll give extended time to someone if they can tell me what they missed and exactly where they want to search. For all they know, I've set up a negative for them, but I want to see them demonstrate they will use their dog to cover their assign area completely.
Many times when people are lost, they seek out a location of protection. Often times those can be the hardest to search as air movement is restricted. When I hide as a victim, I look for places that afford me the most comfort for the current environment. I've been known to build myself a snow cave in winter with only my face sticking out so that I can watch what happens. I play fair. I blow my breath out to the elements. 
Prior to GPS, I have wandered aimlessly and radio'd in that I have no idea where I am and might be out of the search area. Please send a certified dog team to come find me......just trying to be a good victim.

Dogs and handlers get into routines. Dogs get used to finding someone hiding behind a bush, or under a camocloth, or up a tree. We set up a mock search where I placed my poor sister out in an open area in a reclining outdoor chair, covered her with a blanket, and gave her a beer. Not only did the area search dogs not know what to do with someone reclining in the open, her snoring seemed to scare a couple of them.

It's all about those comfort zones and routines.

Jim

Jim


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## Jennifer Michelson (Sep 20, 2006)

LOL, reminds me of my certifying test. I decided to search my area completely differently from how the 3 evaluators thought I would. One victim was told she could relax for a while because she should be last. She was my first victim after approx 10 minutes. She was sitting on a camp chair out in the open and had just packed her pipe....she and the dog were surprised. I had never trained a chair sitting victim and my dog took a few seconds to decide that, yep, she was lost. His barks werent as deep and confident as I like, but I could hear them...


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Jennifer Michelson said:


> On the obedience topic--I didnt see any problem with what Sandra was doing with her pup. Looked pretty low stress to me. I am also involved with people who dont mind schuthund and SAR together. But I believe that there absolutely can be too much obedience and it is a line you cannot cross. So much better less formal ob than a little too much. To me the priority has to be the search and if you do too much ob for that particular dog, you do impact the search.


Yes. Like everything in dog training, it is always a balance. That balance will be different for different handlers and different dogs. The amount and type of ob I do with my duck toller is different than what I do with my malinois for example.

The searching should be the priority for sure...if the searching sucks, more ob isn't going to fix it!


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

We had a search a few months ago where the victim had fallen down a mountain and found shelter on a small cave in the rock face.

Based on head pops the evening before and the terrain, (too dangerous to attempt as darkness was falling) a helicoptor was deployed in that area the next morning and she heard it and crawled out.


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Sandra King said:


> Exactly, not only that but from my experience, especially pet dogs, that get squished anytime they do something unwanted, always look to their handler as if they wanted to ask "Is it okay that I do that? Really? I don't get punished for that?"
> 
> I have very independent dogs. Heck, she was allowed to go on off leash hikes when she wasn't even four months old and she went with my male and other bitch, ranging, running, investigating, the area. She's always been an independent dog and nothing will ever change that. Most certainly not my training methods which 95% is positive re-inforcement. It's rare that I correct her at all.


Just wondering who the dog was hiking with?


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Chris McDonald said:


> Just wondering who the dog was hiking with?


Hello Newman.


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## Jennifer Michelson (Sep 20, 2006)

Chris made it clear a while ago he wants to be a Jeff wanna-be....Just remember Chris--dont get lost. You are basically in my area--if the cops call me at 2am and I hear your name, I am going back to bed!!!!!


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## Sandra King (Mar 29, 2011)

Chris McDonald said:


> Just wondering who the dog was hiking with?


With me! Believe it or not, I used to be pretty darn active in Germany. :roll:


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Ha, stay home you’ll be doing me a favor. Last thing I’ll need is a bunch of overweight moms with their pet quality dogs out looking for me. And besides the cops aint gonna call you cause I aint gona call the cops if im lost and either is my wife so no one will even know. And the last thing I want to be is a Jeff… but at least he would have slowen down this train wreak Sandra from making regular sized fat people think they are not that fat after watching her videos. Hiking.. haha


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Sandra King said:


> With me! Believe it or not, I used to be pretty darn active in Germany. :roll:


and how old is the dog now?


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## Konnie Hein (Jun 14, 2006)

I know several (and own one) disaster dogs who double as sport dogs and have no trouble working independently in the harshest of search environments. A good dog can absolutely be trained by a good handler for competitive, focused obedience while remaining an independent, persistent searcher.


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## Jennifer Michelson (Sep 20, 2006)

Chris McDonald said:


> Ha, stay home you’ll be doing me a favor. Last thing I’ll need is a bunch of overweight moms with their pet quality dogs out looking for me. And besides the cops aint gonna call you cause I aint gona call the cops if im lost and either is my wife so no one will even know. And the last thing I want to be is a Jeff… but at least he would have slowen down this train wreak Sandra from making regular sized fat people think they are not that fat after watching her videos. Hiking.. haha


Nobody overweight on my team except maybe for the guy (not much tho). Only 2 moms (not sure what that has to do with it??), and several non reproducing types.....guys a dad- does that discredit him too?? And not a single dog that would make it in a pet home--all are working line dogs picked for their drive and suitability. Sorry to disappoint....not a stereotype to be had. Not going to bother to ask you to come work with us, cause you clearly aint interested in anything other than easy stereotypes. How many NJ SAR folks have you met and worked with Chris???


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Jennifer Michelson said:


> Nobody overweight on my team except maybe for the guy (not much tho). Only 2 moms (not sure what that has to do with it??), and several non reproducing types.....guys a dad- does that discredit him too?? And not a single dog that would make it in a pet home--all are working line dogs picked for their drive and suitability. Sorry to disappoint....not a stereotype to be had. Not going to bother to ask you to come work with us, cause you clearly aint interested in anything other than easy stereotypes. How many NJ SAR folks have you met and worked with Chris???


 
Ha glad to hear it about your team. 
I worked with exactly 0 volunteer NJ SAR teams.. The thing about stereotyping is it got it start somewhere, but there are exceptions. I won’t go as far as to say I have worked with LE SAR teams but I did spend some time with two over the course of a few visits, I was the guy hiding. Made me think blood hounds are cool, but I wouldn’t want one. 
And I did get lost in the woods for a bit once a while back; I think I posted a bit about it.


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## Jennifer Michelson (Sep 20, 2006)

Yeah, I hear ya, there is truth in stereotypes. But I gotta say, I dont respect anyone who constantly repeats stereotypes with directly experiencing them....


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Jennifer Michelson said:


> Yeah, I hear ya, there is truth in stereotypes. But I gotta say, I dont respect anyone who constantly repeats stereotypes with directly experiencing them....


That’s OK I don’t have any respect for me anyway 
If the OP considers herself and dog a SARs team I did just directly experience one more! Just out of curiosity what do you envision the LE SARs guys that I hid for looking like? Don’t answer that…


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

I am hefty but most on my team are 20 years younger than I and lean and fast and we all have good dogs. I agree you should be at the top of your game to do this.

But you want me on the laptop working the GPS units because I can download and cleanup data faster than anyone else on the team and that is critical info.

I am fast enough to keep up with a cadaver dog for most of our cadaver searches (which are not typically large area fresh HR searches) but even the older ones can be brutal because of things like bridge embankments etc. But I find myself going most places a lot of LE don't want to go and unless you have beaten through acres of chest high kudzu for several hours you really don't know what you are talking about.

How come we don't get on the board and start slamming all the fat middle aged guys doing dogsport? Last I looked, the board members we have lost have not been SAR folks.


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## Jennifer Coulter (Sep 18, 2007)

Chris,

I think Sandra knows about how people here feel about her doing SAR work with her fitness levels. It was mentioned in the thread...even by me, but you have to admit, you enjoy being a dick and having other dicks rally behind you.

Chris, the stereotype you present is not the norm, you do help perpetuate it though and frankly I am getting bored of it. There are lots of people reading this forum that might get the idea that all SAR teams are as you say, and that is just not true. 

Feel free to every once and a while give some credit to people that work and train hard and provide an emergency service not provided by anyone but SAR. This extends beyond SAR dog handlers, to regular SAR volunteers. 

I know you have done some search work with your dogs. Do you have anything to contribute to the topic at hand? 

I would actually be interested in hearing about your thoughts on obedience training and how it can relate to the dog's ability to search independently. How do your search mentors handle the issue of a dog that is handler bound? Do they believe that too much ob is the main cause of this? How long do they work dogs in the absence of scent and expect them to be independent? Do they start ob with young pups or do they make sure that search work is already well underway?

You have things to contribute that I am interested in. Being a dick isn't one of them, so step up....or shut up.


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Nancy Jocoy said:


> How come we don't get on the board and start slamming all the fat middle aged guys doing dogsport? Last I looked, the board members we have lost have not been SAR folks.


They’re smart enough to keep quiet. I don’t know exactly what age is middle age but im 40 and think im close. I want to get real fat by 50.. im gona be fat and proud though.:grin:  
As far as the GPS stuff, ya the whole thing really is a team effort and knowing where you are best suited makes for a team because in the end its rarely an individual who get much accomplished, but man an individual can hamper a team. Just cause you and your dog aint the ones who made the find don’t mean you were not just as important in the find… that goes all the way to the person who keeps water in the coolers. Not that I did any SARs stuff, just goes for everything


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## Sandra King (Mar 29, 2011)

Chris McDonald said:


> If the OP considers herself and dog a SARs team I did just directly experience one more! Just out of curiosity what do you envision the LE SARs guys that I hid for looking like? Don’t answer that…


*For the record. I am a Grid Searcher. Not quite yet a K9 Handler. My dog is NOT certified and as long as that is not the case, I'm a Grid Searcher. I've been out on searches and up with everybody else. Even with the fit, skinny people. There was no difference between their and my performance. Mainly due to my daily hiking trips back in Germany. While I did gain a lot of weight in the past seven months. I was stuck at home every single frickin day and if I am stuck at home, that does not help my body, especially since I suffer from PCOS, lack of exercising is the worst thing for my body. But you can believe me that I am out walking with my dogs as long as I can and that I am trying to get back into shape. 
* 
You don't ask any question, you simply assume things without knowing anything about a person. I don't know if Nancy actually watched them but I used to post a lot of hiking videos, mainly to show people that it is possible to go out with three dogs and why Obedience is so important when you go on off leash hikes. 

I used to hike a lot around the Thingstaette and the Monestary because I knew that Area in and out. We were out there almost daily for three/four/five hours, hiking up and down the hills and I loved it. 

And just to blow your mind. I used to be the Vice German Champion in Martial Arts. I also used to be the Kurpfalz (local) Champion in Martial Arts. If it wasn't for a surgery that I had right before the European Championships I would have made it there as well and I was also qualified for the World Championships. So give me a ****ing break about Fitness. I know what it means to be in shape and what it means to be out of shape. 

Right now, I would not call myself to be in shape but I am good enough to hold up with the Grid Searching Teams and if I wasn't able to do that, they wouldn't let me go out with the other Grid Searchers. 

And just for the record, our team has three guys, two gals. Another German and I. The other German is great in Shape, she's a mom of two and could probably outrun you! The guys, one of them is a heavy smoker and that is just as worse as an obese person. The other guy works in security and is a little obese an the third guy is a little overweight as well. We used to have a fourth guy on the team and he was even bigger than I was. 

Since I have get the Searcher I before I can completely certify my dog, I've got quite some time to get back into shape. For now, I have no choice but to sit back and put my life on hold. My husband comes first and once he's gone on deployment I plan to do what I wanted to do for a long time. I'll hit the gym every single day because biking and walking don't reall help, I've got to do some serious cardio work. 

Not that it's any of your business but I am sick and tired of people like you who think they know it all and can insult people just because they don't like the way they look! 

At least I am out there, staying active. Nobody can say that I don't do anything about my health.


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## Sandra King (Mar 29, 2011)

And one more thing, before I really blow up. 

I am NOT a second class person and I am NOT your ****ing punching bag!


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## Nancy Jocoy (Apr 19, 2006)

Sandra - you do make a point - a lot of smokers out there and I can outpace most of them myself. 

My comments on limitations due to weight are due to my own weight and age (56). ..... 20 years ago prolly would have been quicker. But the knees are a real concern out there.

I can keep up on level terrain but not the mountains. There is a lot of research that makes it clear you can be fat and fit and lean and in awful shape. 

I knew a lady who just had a quadruple bypass - runner, lean, and smoker. You would never had guessed it to look at her.

I still think each person needs to ask themselves each time a search callout occurs how they can be the best resource at the time. 

As to health, my bible is "younger next year" which is an awesome book. Excercise hard an hour a day and don't eat crap is the whole premise.

Honestly though this has been a decent discussion so what is the point of derailing it with fat comments? And whay are they made on almost 100% of SAR discussions? Its not just you .... it is a long history.


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Jennifer Coulter said:


> Chris,
> 
> I think Sandra knows about how people here feel about her doing SAR work with her fitness levels. It was mentioned in the thread...even by me, but you have to admit, you enjoy being a dick and having other dicks rally behind you.
> 
> ...


Your right, I was just about to apologize for throwing this tread off topic and was interested in reading both points on obedience and lead use. But I will certainly admit that there are excellent hard working teams and I see your point in my comments. But Sandra spewing her crap is just as if not more harmful to SARs teams. 
As far as what you guys were saying about a yank and crank owner causing problems for a search dog I been there done that. Not proud to say I was an over corrector but in hind site it did turn out that way. Who the hell know DS were so sensitive? But I do strongly agree that you can never have to much obedience and that done correctly it is nothing but good for everything and for a SARs dog. 
As far as the guys I am slowly learning from if they wanted their teaching tactics online they would be doing it themselves. I got to respect how people make their living. 
I look forward to more SARs threads, I like doing scent work with my dogs more than anything (except just climbing shit). To me it offers a lot more challenge and thinking for the handler than anything else. I would really like to see some of you more experienced handlers having a bit more control over the non experienced handlers. There is a chance someone may need to depend on the results. 
Do any of the larger (like FEMA) SARs organizations have minimum standards for the handlers? 

And for everyones vewing enjoyment my greyhound tracking off lead at 3:20 in…. feel free to beat me down about anything im OK with it. 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WJTLFEQ-XQ8&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Sandra King said:


> *For the record. I am a Grid Searcher. Not quite yet a K9 Handler. My dog is NOT certified and as long as that is not the case, I'm a Grid Searcher. I've been out on searches and up with everybody else. Even with the fit, skinny people. There was no difference between their and my performance. Mainly due to my daily hiking trips back in Germany. While I did gain a lot of weight in the past seven months. I was stuck at home every single frickin day and if I am stuck at home, that does not help my body, especially since I suffer from PCOS, lack of exercising is the worst thing for my body. But you can believe me that I am out walking with my dogs as long as I can and that I am trying to get back into shape. *
> 
> You don't ask any question, you simply assume things without knowing anything about a person. I don't know if Nancy actually watched them but I used to post a lot of hiking videos, mainly to show people that it is possible to go out with three dogs and why Obedience is so important when you go on off leash hikes.
> 
> ...


Great a list of excuses, imagine that


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## Gerry Grimwood (Apr 2, 2007)

Nancy Jocoy said:


> How come we don't get on the board and start slamming all the fat middle aged guys doing dogsport? Last I looked, the board members we have lost have not been SAR folks.


What about the older than middle age guys not doing dogsports, Are we so insignificant that we don't deserve a good slamming every now and then ??

Oh wait, I just remembered..we get the Dr Bob barbeque shishkabob stick lobotomy :lol:


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## Doug Zaga (Mar 28, 2010)

Sandra King said:


> And one more thing, before I really blow up.
> 
> I am NOT a second class person and I am NOT your ****ing punching bag!


Are we back on the weight issue again? I would suggest you Let it go...be who you are and be proud of yourself. 

If the extra weight is causing you health issues then you can make excuses and do nothing about diet and exercise and die young or do something about it....just sayn!


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## Sandra King (Mar 29, 2011)

> But Sandra spewing her crap is just as if not more harmful to SARs teams.


Yeah, right. I am the one spewing crap.... wow... people like you never seize to amaze me. 



> Are we back on the weight issue again? I would suggest you Let it go...be who you are and be proud of yourself.
> 
> If the extra weight is causing you health issues then you can make excuses and do nothing about diet and exercise and die young or do something about it....just sayn!


I am just sick of people like Chris who think they can use you as a punching bag. But you are right. He's not worth the stress and trouble. The topic had nothing to do with weight at all until he brought it into it and of course, stupid me took the bait.


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## Sandra King (Mar 29, 2011)

Nancy Jocoy said:


> Sandra - you do make a point - a lot of smokers out there and I can outpace most of them myself.
> 
> My comments on limitations due to weight are due to my own weight and age (56). ..... 20 years ago prolly would have been quicker. But the knees are a real concern out there.
> 
> I can keep up on level terrain but not the mountains. There is a lot of research that makes it clear you can be fat and fit and lean and in awful shape.


 Yeah, lot's of smokers out there and some are in worse shape then I am. The one guy we used to have was fat and a smoker. He had to sit down a couple of times and one time I thought he's going to pass out and that was just at training. 



> I knew a lady who just had a quadruple bypass - runner, lean, and smoker. You would never had guessed it to look at her.
> 
> I still think each person needs to ask themselves each time a search callout occurs how they can be the best resource at the time.
> 
> ...


Yes, very true. If I notice that it is going into terrain I've never worked in before and where I could become a threat to others, I simply stay at the HQ and do some work there. It's that easy. You don't have to be a Grid Searcher or K9 Handler to be useful to the team. There is lots of work that needs to be done behind the scene. It's about the victim, not about us. I don't have to play the hero and every single person in a team is important to run smoothly and even if it's just cleaning up behind everybody else. 

And yes, it was a decent discussion up until now. Let's go back to Obedience, shall we?


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Sandra King said:


> Yeah, right. I am the one spewing crap.... wow... people like you never seize to amaze me.
> 
> 
> 
> I am just sick of people like Chris who think they can use you as a punching bag. But you are right. He's not worth the stress and trouble. The topic had nothing to do with weight at all until he brought it into it and of course, stupid me took the bait.


 
Hold on cowgirl weight was bought up by others way before me. I think one of those little Jenn bitches started it. You just don’t let it die. What country are you from again I forgot? And what are you doing here anyway? And your right hes not worth the trouble


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Sandra King said:


> ... And yes, it was a decent discussion up until now.* Let's go back to Obedience, shall we?*


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## Sandra King (Mar 29, 2011)

Chris McDonald said:


> Hold on cowgirl weight was bought up by others way before me. I think one of those little Jenn bitches started it. You just don’t let it die. What country are you from again I forgot? And what are you doing here anyway? And your right hes not worth the trouble


And if others jump off an airplane without a parachute, do you follow them? :roll:


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Gerry Grimwood said:


> What about the older than middle age guys not doing dogsports, Are we so insignificant that we don't deserve a good slamming every now and then ??
> 
> Oh wait, I just remembered..we get the Dr Bob barbeque shishkabob stick lobotomy :lol:


What age is older middle age? Is 40 younger middle age or middle age? I think like 78 is the average life expectance for a male in the US so that would make me older than middle middle age but I don’t think its older middle age? Unless I die at 60 then I am older middle age and maybe younger older age? This is gona keep me up all night


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Chris McDonald said:


> What age is older middle age? Is 40 younger middle age or middle age? I think like 78 is the average life expectance for a male in the US so that would make me older than middle middle age but I don’t think its older middle age? Unless I die at 60 then I am older middle age and maybe younger older age? This is gona keep me up all night



If it's gauged by how soon a forum mod is planning to kill you, then I'd say you are in late late late middle age.


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## Connie Sutherland (Mar 27, 2006)

Sandra King said:


> ... .* Let's go back to Obedience, shall we?*


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## Chris McDonald (May 29, 2008)

Connie Sutherland said:


> If it's gauged by how soon a forum mod is planning to kill you, then I'd say you are in late late late middle age.


 
Ah.. shit. Dog road side OB. Ah ya I think they should have it[-o<


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